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== September 2010 ==
== September 2010 ==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Geastrum quadrifidum/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lat/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bix Beiderbecke/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roy Kilner/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/SMS Goeben/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester Mark 1/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester Mark 1/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Zino's Petrel/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Zino's Petrel/archive1}}

Revision as of 18:47, 30 September 2010

September 2010

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:47, 30 September 2010 [1].

Geastrum quadrifidum

Nominator(s): Sasata (talk) 15:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hiking through the bush of northern Saskatchewan this summer, I was very pleasantly surprised to find a cluster of earthstar fungi growing on a rotting log—the lead image shows the beauties in their natural state only moments after I saw them. Further examination revealed that it was a species new to me, and when I returned home I started researching. This article is a result of those efforts. I believe that in terms of quality and adherence to the FA criteria, it compares with the other earthstar FA, Geastrum triplex. Thanks to Rcej for the GA review and copyedit. Sasata (talk) 15:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From me-

  • "the gleba—fertile" Why italics? And do we not have an article to link to that talks about gleba?
  • "usually taller than wide" than it is wide?
  • Category:Fungi of South America and Category:Fungi of Africa? Perhaps specify Australasia or Oceania in the lead instead of "Australia"?
  • The short paragraphs in Distribution and habitat make it look a little underdeveloped.
  • First paragraph of microscopic characteristics lacks a cite
  • In the lead, you mention that it "spends most of its life as thin strands of mycelium" (and mentioned mycelium a couple of lines later) but don't really go into that in the article body. A little more on ecology would be good.

Generally looking great. Research, sourcing and writing all top-notch as usual. J Milburn (talk) 16:53, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ucucha

  • "the epithet coronatus is not to be used because of the existence of the sanctioned name"—instead of a reference directly to the Code, could you cite this to a source that directly addresses this issue?
  • "within taxonomical terminology, this usage is an auctorum non"—if you declare that a name is misapplied, you really need a citation.
  • Does pseudoparenchyma merit a link? (It would be great to have more articles that use the word "pseudoparenchymatous").
  • "sometimes greenish due to algae"—is that a symbiotic association?
  • "ranging from roughly spherical to somewhat egg-shaped, to more or less irregularly shaped"—what about "ranging from roughly spherical to egg-shaped or irregular"?
  • "smokey"—not "smoky"?
  • "The basidia of G. quadrifidum have a basal clamp connection or narrow into a hyphal part ending at a clamp, when young more or less ellipsoid to club-shaped, in age often becoming more or less bottle-shaped, ampullaceous or sometimes almost lecythiform but other shapes occur, as mature (hyphal part excluded) 14–21 x 4.5–7 µm."—run-on sentence; please split
  • "The outer part (the mycelial cup) consists of thick-walled (often with a narrow lumen), 1.5–4 µm wide, with branched and densely interwoven hyphae."—thick-walled what?
  • Don't you usually have "Similar species" as a subsection of "Description"?
  • I usually do, but this section is longer than most SS sections in other articles, so I though it'd be ok to have it separate (and it gave me more room to fit in those images). Sasata (talk) 17:44, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Geastrum minimum, although similarly diminutive"—that is, as small as G. quadrifidum? In context, it sounds like you're comparing it with G. fornicatum.
  • Any idea what the South American countries are where it's been found?
  • Montenegro and Denmark aren't listed among the countries where it has been found, but if it is on their regional Red Lists, that would imply it does occur there.
  • "In Britain, all collections have been made in beech forest on calcareous soil."—previous para doesn't mention any collections in the UK.
  • Images look good.
  • Scopoli (1771): is there no online version? Publisher, language, page?

Ucucha 13:21, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the careful review and copyedit, and for translating all those Latin titles!
You're welcome; one more point:

Support nice pictures, meets FA criteria. Dincher (talk) 21:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

a link for 'weft' (I confess I have never heard that word before about 30 seconds ago....)
  • Well, neither had I until I worked on this article, so I guess I shouldn't assume regular readers will know the word. Have replaced with "flat mat" to better match with the description later. Sasata (talk) 08:13, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Would be nice to have a stub or some blue thing to link for thorn forest, sounds like an intriguing term and I'd do it mysellf but am short on time today.

Otherwise, we're pretty much there. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:47, 30 September 2010 [2].

Lat

see Lat (cartoonist)


Nominator(s): Jappalang (talk) 06:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My first BLP nomination at FAC, and it is of a cartoonist! All of us had read comics at one time or another. Many of these artists are fondly remembered. North Americans know Charles Schulz. The French are aware of Albert Uderzo. Only a few have gained social recognition of the highest order. Carl Giles and Gerald Scarfe of the United Kingdom were admitted into the Order of the British Empire (OBE), but they bear not the titles of "Sir". However, Lat, a Malaysian cartoonist, received the title of datuk (akin to a British knighthood) for drawing funny pictures of people.

Lat is Malaysia's "cultural icon" and one of its most trusted person (according to a Reader's Digest poll). His works has earned the acclaim of local and foreign critics; his signature work, The Kampung Boy (1979), is a highly praised literature in the US, Japan, and Germany—bearing a glowing testimony by Matt Groening. Lat seems to have done no wrong; there are no reliable sources that cast much aspersion on him. Thanks to the research by comics scholar John Lent and Muliyaid Mahamood, there are several academic sources of information on the cartoonist. His respected status in Malaysia yields many journalistic material as supplementary sources.

So please sit down and read about this village boy who was encouraged from young by many to practice his gift, whose income helped to support his family since he was nine years old, and whose career skyrocketed because of his drawings of circumcisions and a camel-riding Prime Minister. Read on, for there is a lat more where that came from. After going through a peer review and receiving much helpful advice and queries by Brianboulton (who also gave a copy-edit) and Elcobbola, I feel the article is ready to tackle FAC. Although my current time on Wikipedia is limited (backing up failing hard drives on my home PC), I will be on at least a few hours each day to address and resolve any issue raised in this FAC. Jappalang (talk) 06:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: As noted above, I gave this article a pretty detailed peer review, details here, and did some light copyedits. It is delightful, definitely recommended reading. It induced me to buy a copy of Lat's cartoons (I hadn't realised they were available in the UK), and this article helped me considerably in my understanding and appreciation of the cartoonist's work. Worthy to be featured on the front page. Brianboulton (talk) 17:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • With regard to playing in tin mines, to me that means underground. If open-cast is intended, can that be made clear?
  • Is this about the Willmott reference? If it is, I am not certain what is wrong; both links (archived and un-archived) work. The purpose of having the link archived is to prepare for possible link death (which tends to happen with the Malaysian newspaper sites). Jappalang (talk) 15:41, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Very, very well-written. Just some notes on links(words bolded below) that you can add into the article.
Moving to the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur, Lat applied for a cartoonist's position at Berita Harian.
In 1997, after 27 years of living in Kuala Lumpur,[52] Lat moved back to Ipoh with his family. Aside from retreating slightly from the cartooning scene, he wanted to be close to his old kampung and let his children experience life in a small town or village;[6][21] he had married in 1977,[53] and the couple have four children—two daughters and two sons.
Lat's career took a turn for the better on 10 February 1974; Asia Magazine, a periodical based in Hong Kong, published his cartoons about the Bersunat—a circumcision ceremony all Malaysian boys of the Islamic faith have to undergo.
The caption of the last picture states that AirAsia decorated two of their planes with Lat's cartoons. However, that is not mentioned in the article. Bejinhan talks 12:14, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I have linked KL and Ipoh on their first mentions in the main text. Berita Harian was already linked (via Berita Minggu). AirAsia's aeroplanes were mentioned in the last paragraph ("... his cartoon characters decorate stamps, financial guides, and aeroplanes."). Jappalang (talk) 13:51, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:47, 30 September 2010 [8].

Bix Beiderbecke

Nominator(s): Margo&Gladys (talk) 14:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I have been encouraged to do so by several editors who have praised its content. I am a significant contributor to the article and an expert on the subject and so able to work with other editors in making any necessary changes. Margo&Gladys (talk) 14:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could you tell me what dab pages are? Also, I'm having no problem with Jazz.com links on my end, but it does seem as if the International Jazz Hall of Fame has gone offline. I could delete that altogether, although there is an additional link in the footnote that corroborates the induction. I'm happy to leave it up to the editors here whether that particular source is sufficient. Margo&Gladys (talk) 15:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dab pages are disambiguation pages. A link, say, on John Smith takes you to a list of people named John Smith. Suppose the Smith you want is the mathematician. You "disambiguate" by piping the link thus: John Smith, which now takes you where you want to go. This is not a problem in this article, but this information might be useful next time round. I'll do a full sources review in a couple of days, and comment on the other issue then. Brianboulton (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Got it. Thank you. Margo&Gladys (talk) 18:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The former problems have disappeared, but there is now a dead external link to http://bixbeiderbecke.com/bixdisco/bixdiscoicoverpage.html/ Ucucha 02:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Link fixed. Margo&Gladys (talk) 14:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Margo&Gladys (talk) 19:34, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Margo&Gladys (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Image removed. Margo&Gladys (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is no proof that the Greater Astoria Historical Society agreed to release File:Bix Beiderbecke plaque.jpg under CC-BY-SA; an email needs to be sent to OTRS.
Image removed. I hope this adequately addresses your concerns. Can you tell me whether there is any reason the following images could not be inserted into the entry: File:Wolverine orchestra 1924.jpg; File:ParlR1838B.jpg; and File:Young Bix Beiderbecke.jpg? The latter was deleted during the Good Article review because an editor claimed its historical context was disputed; while this was once true, it is no longer true, and ample documentation from a recent source is available to cite. Thanks for your help. Margo&Gladys (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks. I added the image of an eight-year-old Beiderbecke, with citation. Margo&Gladys (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources issues

  • Who publishes the "Bixography Discussion Group", and why is this a reliable encyclopedic source?
The Bixography Discussion Group is published by Albert Haim, a Beiderbecke researcher. It is a discussion board used by a number of Beiderbecke scholars and contains information that can be very useful in understanding the subject. I think you'll find that I don't use the website as a definitive source of information about Beiderbecke, but as an example of how certain information has been disputed and argued about (e.g., notes 17 and 23). Margo&Gladys (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the first ref that mentions the Bixography Discussion Group, I added an explanation of what the forum is, who established it and when. Margo&Gladys (talk) 22:42, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unresolved. Albert Haim and this Bixography discussion group are listed several times in the notes and references, but not as an author of a reliable source outside of that internet discussion group. If Haim is an expert, that needs to be established per WP:SPS policy; otherwise, reviewers Supporting this nom should indicate why they think these internet postings meet crit. 1c of WP:WIAFA for high quality sources, indeed, whether it even is a reliable source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your concern. I do believe that Haim is an established expert—here is an example of one of his third-party publications—but I do not use him or his site as a source for facts about Beiderbecke's life. Instead, I use the Bixography Discussion Group as evidence that those facts are often disputed and debated by fans and scholars. I don't believe I ever cite the forum as the sole evidence for anything (with the possible exception of note 125). In note 27, I cite Haim as the first person to publish (either online or in print) Beiderbecke's arrest report. Such an acknowledgment is only fair to Haim, of course, and the information was corroborated in future print publications. Its appearance first on Haim's forum, however, lends the site some authority, I think, although, again, I do not cite it concerning the facts of Beiderbecke's life. Does this speak to your concern or am I misunderstanding the standards that need to be applied here? These references to the forum can easily be excised, but I think they will leave the article poorer for their absence. Thanks. Margo&Gladys (talk) 14:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree you have used restraint in sourcing the internet discussion group, but Haim still needs to meet WP:SPS. Could you clarify what the IAJRC is? Is it peer-reviewed? Fact checking? Oversight? Has Haim published elsewhere, in peer-reviewed journals or mainstream sources? We need to satisfy WP:SPS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:31, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
IAJRC is the International Association of Jazz Record Collectors; I doubt it is peer reviewed or fact-checked and I am not going to go to bat for Haim as a scholar. Not at all. His website is, for better and sometimes for worse, enormously influential among Bix fans and scholars, but in this instance, it's easiest to just remove those citations. I kept the mention of the arrest report. Margo&Gladys (talk) 15:04, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are problems with your usage of footnotes (as distinct from citations). Some are too vague to be useful as a means of checking sources, e.g. "See Ferguson", "For more about Gennett, see Kennedy" etc. Others, e.g. 49 and 85, are longish narratives without citations. In other cases footnotes refer to unlisted sources, or provide bare links to unlisted sources. There has to be a consistency in the way in which references are formatted, and in particular a publisher must be shown in every case.
I'm confused about what's vague about "See Ferguson." The article mentions a certain kind of magazine article (as opposed to specific information in a magazine article). The note suggests that the reader see Ferguson (meaning see Ferguson for an example of such a magazine article). In the references list, then, under "Ferguson," is the information one would need to consult such an article. That doesn't seem vague to me. Same with "For more about Gennett, see Kennedy." The whole book is about Gennett and Beiderbecke, more or less, so I think that pointing readers toward that book is helpful. I can't argue with your description of notes 49 and 85; is there a prohibition against this sort of extra-curricular information? I'm happy to delete it, but I thought it might be interesting or helpful. Am I right that the only footnotes that refer to unlisted sources are footnotes that link to websites? I'm happy to list those websites and find publishers for them as well. Margo&Gladys (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added websites to the References section. If you or someone else were able to address my questions above, I'd be grateful. Margo&Gladys (talk) 19:34, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it would be better if those particular footnotes (currently numbers 4 to 7) read "For example see..." hamiltonstone (talk) 23:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Margo&Gladys (talk) 14:59, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of the refs from 102 onward has publisher information.
As I wrote above. Margo&Gladys (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Margo&Gladys (talk) 19:34, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Publisher locations are missing from several books
I will do my best to correct that. Margo&Gladys (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Margo&Gladys (talk) 17:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no publisher called "Oxford". This should be written as "Oxford University Press".
Done. Margo&Gladys (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Few things.

  • I love how you go into detail on historians' disagreeing on details in his life. It makes for a nice read. It's not a complaint by any means, I just wanted to mention that.
  • "played a gangster hangout" - for some reason that phrase stood out at me. Was it a speakeasy? (it was during the prohibition era, after all). IDK, just that wording seemed awkward
Changed to "speakeasy." Margo&Gladys (talk) 13:36, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beiderbecke apparently hung out with them" - "hung out" seems too colloquial.
Changed to "spent time with." Margo&Gladys (talk) 13:36, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • When did his drinking start?
Excellent question. I'm not sure that it's a hundred percent clear when his drinking started. However, the headmaster at Lake Forest informed Mr. and Mrs. Beiderbecke that their son had been drinking and bringing liquor onto campus. So his vice dates back at least to high school. I revised to reflect that fact. Margo&Gladys (talk) 13:36, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Other than those three things, I really enjoyed reading the article, as a jazz musician myself.
Support. --Hurricanehink (talk) 02:13, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I'm not certain the (well written) FUR on the lead image is as watertight as it first appears. You do realise that anything published prior to 1923 is PD, right? Are you certain there are no pre-1923 published pictures floating about? J Milburn (talk) 00:36, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I pinged Stifle. Regarding Milburn's comment -- to be honest I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't actually fix the 1924 photograph; somebody else (thankfully) did. And I don't have any experience or expertise in dealing with this media or with copyright concerns. So I'm not sure what an FUR is or how to determine whether it's airtight. There are pre-1923 photographs of Beiderbecke -- I suggested one above. But none are of him as a professional musician. His career actually began in 1924. So any help or further explanation would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Margo&Gladys (talk) 21:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have revised the FUR on the image to make it more explicit. Accepting the point that his musical career did not begin until 1924, I don't see a free-use way in which one could show the subject of the article either as an adult or as a musician - not to mention the fact that this particular image is explicitly discussed in the article text - so I would be content with it as it now stands. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:19, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comment. I'd like to support, but I would also like to hear other reviewers comments on what would seem a (potentially) key issue. What do the following articles have in common: Madonna (entertainer), The Kinks, Uncle Tupelo, and Bedřich Smetana? Answer: they are all FAs about composers / performers... and they all have an audio sample of their subject's work. Obviously copyright can't be preventing this, or some of those samples couldn't possibly be available: so why do we not have a sample of Beiderbecke's music? I'm not sure we would get an article on a visual artist through FAC without an example of their work illustrated; should we do so for a musician? hamiltonstone (talk) 00:30, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(I've opened a thread on this at FAC talk, as it might be the better place to discuss). hamiltonstone (talk) 01:50, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know the logistics of loading up such a sample, but I love the idea and would highly recommend we use a clip of Beiderbecke's solo in "Singin' the Blues." Margo&Gladys (talk) 12:30, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With some help from a friend, I figured out the logistics and have uploaded an 18-second clip of Beiderbecke's solo on "Singin' the Blues" and placed it in an appropriate spot in the Beiderbecke entry. Margo&Gladys (talk) 20:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant - complete with careful fair use rationale and copyright tag. This is exactly what I hoped for. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I've now added three sound clips altogether, which I think give the range of his career and styles. Margo&Gladys (talk) 23:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:47, 30 September 2010 [9].

Roy Kilner

Nominator(s): Sarastro1 (talk) 22:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A fairly obscure cricketer. Kilner played around the time of World War I, losing his best friend and being injured in the Somme. He mainly played for Yorkshire in the 1920s but declined fairly quickly after 1924, having played Test matches. He died while young. He was a very popular player and something of a joker but is almost forgotten now. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Aaroncrick:

  • "In 1904, aged 14, Kilner first played for the Mitchell Main first team, playing two games without success. Although playing regularly from the 1905 season..."—Play/played gets repetitive; perhaps need to tweak the structure of the sentences.
  • " He scored 0 and 14 and did not bowl, and in a further six matches for Yorkshire that season, his highest score was 18 runs, his average with the bat was just 6.66 in ten innings and he did not take any wickets."—Used and twice in the sentence. Instead, you could use a full stop or semi-colon after bowl.
  • "...going on to take twelve wickets for 75 runs in the second match."—Why it twelve spelt out? Also, I didn't think we mixed up a sentence with spelling out the word and just using the number itself. Maybe ask YellowMonkey.
First two done. For bowling figures, I always tend to spell out the number of wickets as that tends to be the convention when it isn't a stats list (well, in Wisden anyway), but I will change to figures if it is preferred. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With the bat, he suffered a slight decline: he did not score a hundred for the first time since 1912,[47] but still scored 1,401 runs at an average of 34.17 and including nine scores over fifty."—I know he didn't score a century, but I wanted say it was a slight decline. He scored more runs than in previous seasons, and averaged higher. He also placed third in the Yorkshire batting averages, higher than in previous seasons.
A little harsh I suppose! Took out decline. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, after Emmott Robinson broke through..."—Jargon?
Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was effective on pitches which favoured his style of bowling, but not on the flatter pitches prevalent in the dry summer of 1925."—Without reading any further, what was his style of bowling?
Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...when 71,000 people attended his benefit match against Middlesex."—How many days did the match go for?
Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the winter of 1925–26, Kilner was selected for the M.C.C. tour of West Indies..."—We normally add the before West Indies.
Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...and achieved a level of consistency..."—achieved at a level of consistency?
Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...but his bowling average of 22.52 was the highest he had achieved since 1920, before he became a regular bowler.—Were the highest...?
I would have thought was. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...48 year-old Wilfred Rhodes."—Add another hypen as you did earlier.
Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the Kilner's final County Championship match, he scored 91 not out and took eight wickets in the match..."—Don't need to use the last match.
Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In terms of bowling, Kilner was an effective performer on rain affected pitch."—Doesn't read right.
Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • On a few more occasions you could say where Yorkshire finished on the ladder.
Added comment for each season. Too much? --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh no, that's very good, thanks. Aaroncrick TALK 01:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aaroncrick TALK 22:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All comments addressed I think. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 22:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • image review No images to check Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: There's a reference error mid-article that needs immediate fixing. Brianboulton (talk) 00:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments looks good. CE when necessary
    • About his brothers I think it's easier to be explicit right at the start. At the moment it says he was the second son out of 11 kids, then later it says he has brothers, so there must be at least 3 boys. Later it names two other brothers so I think it's better to give them in order at the start if possible, and which order he was overall, including the grils, if possible
    • Do we know if the church was Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian etc?
    • Does one have to be a miner to join the mining team? Or can one be a stakeholder, or a descendant of one of the two? Or just anyone?
    • Do we know if MM were in the highest competition in Yorkshire or just some random one. Was Harrogate an affiliate/sub-club of YCCC and was it at a higher level competition than MM thus YCCC sending him there?
    • "On the first morning, Kilner was used as the sixth bowler and proved successful enough to keep bowling;" Needs to rm bowling rpt, although I can't think of anything decent atm
    • "Kilner did not play for the Yorkshire second team after 1912 " So this implies that he was sometimes dropped in 1912 but after that he was never dropped? If so it should be said explicitly; more convenient for the reader as well
    • Some things seem underlinked. bowling av, partnership, fours,
    • I think we should note what division PNE were in, that should be easy.
      • Really?? :) There was no league in 1918, so I'm not sure if he was just playing in friendlies. PNE were in first division in 1919, but not easy to find a reliable reference. If it is really important, I can add a newspaper ref showing them in div 1. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Put in what I found and got ref from Times. Maybe too complicated and not entirely relevant, but not sure. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just wondering, did the 2-day CC matches get FC status as well?
    • In the early Tests v RSA, if there is no news explaining about selection changes could you just compare scorecards to see what the team changes were and note what the selectors did? Did they [apparently] decide his bowling wasn't useful and replace him with another pure batsman? Noting his batting posn might be useful, because if you score 59 in the top 6 you don't normally get dropped, although if you were No 8 and bowled rubbish you would get dropped even if you made a 80 or even 100 (or 201* per Gillespie) :) [Kilner's career stats show that he was good enough to be a frontline bowler so was that the std against which they assessed him?
Added a couple of sentences on his batting position. Found a general ref, or I'd have been referring to a lot of scorecards! --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "He was selected for the third Test, when a series of injuries for England left him with a heavy workload" Did he get recalled because the others did badly or got injured, or a team restructure, or does this mean he got in then the others broke down mid match and he had to bowl a disproportionate quota?
      • The later sentences imply that teammates broke down mid match then. So was his recall due to a pre-match injury or some guy's form slump, or him doing well in the tour matches?
        • OK. Clarified workload comment and added sentence about selection - the bowlers were changed around, presumably after their pasting at the start of the series. Naturally, none of the sources offer even a suggestion as to what was going on. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Lord's 1926 was the 2nd Test? I think it's good to note the order, just in case his good performance was the last Test and he was dropped immediately, lol

YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure in the case of Kilner, but usually the players would coach and/or play for the Maharajas team. So, not sure as the source is ambiguous(surprise!). --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have to ask for his specific scores in the Test trial, and the PvG matches as these had the highest density of talent and were given a lot more weight in selecting the Test team, especiall the Test trial. How many wickets did he pile up in the run up to his debut Test
Done for most of the PvG matches, but stuck to ones at Lords which were the "proper" ones: the rest were a mixture of sides which would take too long to explain in this article. Added some other stats too. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the Aus tour, it says he did well in nonFC, implying that he did badly in the FC warmups. This should be expanded on ( stats again :() to explain how he fell out of favor after the WA century I guess.
More stats added! :) Actually, his form was dreadful! --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • More generally, Tony might haul you over for "that" and the usage of the long form of "at a bowlnig/batting average" and "took six wickets for 45 runs" can be a disadvantage when you need to use batting/bowling/wickets again in the same vicinity YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed many "that"s and tried to vary descriptions of his average and bowling figures. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: All sources look OK, no outstanding issues. Brianboulton (talk) 15:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support –

  • Yorkshire regular: "In his years at there...". Don't think "at" adds anything; it only would if the club name was given.
  • Tour of Australia: "taking took ten for 66 in the match". Remome "took" since it throws the sentence off.
  • Decline as a bowler: Remove second word of "In the Kilner's final County Championship match". Giants2008 (27 and counting) 18:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. All done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, leaning to support. Just a few things:
  • "Annie Campbelljohn—the daughter of James Camplejohn" - I assume the different spellings is deliberate?
  • "The Maharaja of Patiala again invited Kilner to coach in India in the winter of 1927–28" yet two sentences later he appears to be playing cricket, not coaching. There is a continuity and clarity problem here.
  • "When he was chosen as a Cricketer of the Year, Wisden remarked that he was devoted to the game..." Why just this late, passing mention of something that seems to me to be a big deal. What year was he chosen? Why? Where was it published? Should being Cricketer of the Year be mentioned in the lead? hamiltonstone (talk) 23:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:

  • Throughout the article you use (for example) "138 for four", "211 for five". Personally I'd prefer to see it written more numerically, "138 for 4", "211 for 5". But I have no objection to it remaining as it is!

Other than that I have no issues with the article, and given it is such a minor point anyway, have my


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:47, 30 September 2010 [10].

SMS Goeben

Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The only German battlecruiser to serve outside the North/Baltic Seas, Goeben served in the Mediterranean before the start of World War I and fled to Turkey at the onset of hostilities. Her presence played a part in bringing the Ottomans into the war on the side of Germany and stymied Allied attempts to seize Constantinople. The ship was formally transferred to the Turkish Navy after the end of the war and served on active duty until 1950, and then in reserve into the early 70s, after which she was broken up for scrap. I wrote this article mostly in January and February, after which it passed GA and A-class reviews. The portion on the ship's wartime service has since been overhauled somewhat by Sturmvogel 66, who has access to a couple of specialized sources. I feel the article is of pretty high quality, and with the help of reviewers, we can ensure this article meets the FA standards. Thanks in advance to all those who take the time to review this article. Parsecboy (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC) and Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Quick comment - the ISBN for Langensiepen is probably wrong, they're supposed to be either 10 or 13 digits long (not 11!)
    • "From April 1913 Goeben visited many Mediterranean ports including Venice, Pola, and Naples, before sailing into Albanian waters." -- are there any contemporary newspapers that describe the visits? You might be able to include more information on them.
    • How did Goeben bombard a town in Belgium when she was in the Mediterranean? (you link to Philippeville)
    • "On 7–8 May, Yavuz sortied from the Bosphorus, but fails to locate any Russian ships and is short of ammunition and cannot bombard Sevastopol." -- huh? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There was one too many "5"s in the ISBN. I'll have to see if there's anything on the port visits. The link to Philippeville has been fixed (though I was tempted to tell you Goeben was using RAPs). I fixed the grammar on the last sentence, but it doesn't seem to flow logically to me—that's something Sturm added so he'll be better able to address that one. Parsecboy (talk) 18:43, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—2c Citation consistency
    • Bibliography requires consistent location data (eg: Worth, Richard (2001). Hough, Richard (2003).  ; Campbell, N. J. M. (1978). requires State or Nation).
    • fn61 is missing a space (if you choose Author only below, this will be solved).
    • Barlas & Güvenç and Güvenç & Barlas are cited Author short-title style in the footnotes, all other footnotes are cited Author only style. Consistency: either Author short-title or Author only? Author order for these texts means that Author only would not cause confusion.
    • Dual author footnotes "&" versus "and" consistency, Langensiepen and Güleryüz, but yet Barlas & Güvenç; Güvenç & Barlas Fifelfoo (talk) 15:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I've got everything - thanks for catching all of those. Parsecboy (talk) 18:43, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - no deadlinks, but one dablink: Liman. PL290 (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The lead is in good shape. Feel free to give me a holler if I can help. - Dank (push to talk) 22:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support, if the other reviewers are happy with the responses (I can't tell), with the understanding that I'm generally too involved with ship articles to support them at FAC. My only remaining reservation is the "one ship did this, two ships did this, one ship did this" discussion below, but I don't see a way to improve things given the information we've got. Standard disclaimer applies. - Dank (push to talk) 15:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Questions


Comment The article states that Goeben and Breslau made up the the Mediterranian division, but there was actually a third ship that was part of the division as well, the SMS Loreley which was used as a station yacht at constantinople. I dont know the particulars about her service, but she was attached to the Mediterranian division at the start of the war.XavierGreen (talk) 06:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Though Loreley was technically assigned to the division, when writers refer to the unit they're not including her, as she was an active participant. I don't see much reason to include her in this article. Parsecboy (talk) 17:46, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • In the Balkan Wars section you have a link to the main article First Balkan War at the top but then in the second paragraph note the service in the Second Balkan War. Why not link to both at the top of the page?
    • In the section The pursuit of Goeben and Breslau you note that international law allowed the ships to be in a neutral port for only 24-hours. Do we know which international law specifically, and if so why isn't the specific law linked in the section?
    • Do we have an article for Russian destroyer Leitenant Pushchin? If so, please link.
    • In the Black Sea operations - 1914 section you note that her holes were plugged with concrete, however I would like to know if this move was due the inability of the ship to have a dock large enough for service or if other factors (like time constraints, neutrality laws, economics, etc) had a hand in this decision as well.
    • The coal transports mentioned in the 1915 section, were these commercial vessels or were they built specifically for the navy? If the latter was the case I would suggest seeing if we have an article here for fleet coalers and linking to it. If not, please disregard this comment.
    • In the post war section you have a note about the tonnage of the floating dry dock acquired to fix Yavoz, by curious coincidence both the measurements are equal. Please check this, as it is my experience that metric units and other units are rarely equal.
      • Rounding error, currently only 2 significant digits, as metric tons and long tons are actually fairly close.
    • Just out of curiosity, I seem to recall a comparison of the time this ship served in relation to the time that USS New Jersey (BB-62) served, I do not see this in the article and its not a big deal, but am I right to assume that the comparison was in fact located in this article, or was it another article that I am thinking of? TomStar81 (Talk) 18:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 20:36, 28 September 2010 [11].

Manchester Mark 1

Nominator(s): Malleus Fatuorum 19:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This may be the only time you'll ever see a Cultural impact section in an article about an early valve-computer, but this one and its predecessor, both built at the end of the 1940s at Manchester University, caused quite a stir when the university's professor of neurosurgery delivered an address debunking the idea that computers could ever display intelligent behaviour. Oh, and it was also the prototype for the world's first commercially available stored-program computer, the Ferranti Mark 1. Malleus Fatuorum 19:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Driveby question (I'll read it properly later): I appreciate that it was scrapped, but does any part of it still exist? I suspect that will be many readers' second question (after "but what about ENIAC/Colossus/the Difference Engine?"—and yes, I know the answer to that one). These things have holy-relic status among a certain subset; I can easily imagine people making a special trip to see a couple of surviving valve-tubes if they exist. – iridescent 19:42, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not so far as I'm aware. It was made largely out scrap anyway, old GPO steel racks and war surplus valves. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the racks were returned to the GPO, but I may be imagining that. I suspect that the valves would have been recycled into the next development machine, Meg. Malleus Fatuorum 20:14, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. One dablink needs fixing: National Physical Laboratory. No problems with deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 20:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Malleus Fatuorum 20:17, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments - it's not a hangman! Still interesting, though - some nitpicks below. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "the British press, which used..." in lead vs "who used" in article body
  • Is there a difference between a "stored-program computer" and an "electronic stored-program computer"?
  • Manchester University or University of Manchester?
  • "£35,000 per year (£950 thousand today)" - why use "thousand" for one and not the other?
  • Some wikilinks (like millisecond and Ferranti Mark 1) are unnecessarily repeated
  • "Main store consisted of" -> "The main store consisted of"?
  • What does the term "seconded" mean? Perhaps explain/link?
  • "Thirty-four patents" in lead vs "34 patents" in article body
  • Is Leavitt 2006 or 2007?
  • Lavington 1980 is not in Notes, nor is Williams 1997
  • Be consistent in how volume and issue numbers are formatted in notes. For example, note 3 uses "2 42", and note 15 uses "21 (1)"
  • Is Turing 1936 or 1937?
  • Be consistent in including or not including publisher locations
  • "Resurrection (The Computer Conservation Society)" or "Resurrection, The Bulletin of the Computer Conservation Society"
  • Replies
Thanks for your comments.
  • Standardised on "the British press, which".
  • I suppose that in principle there could be stored-program computers that aren't electronic, but I'm not aware of any, or at least I can't immediately think of one, so I've removed "electronic".
  • At the time, the university's official name was "Victoria University of Manchester", but it's commonly called Manchester University, and it seems a little stilted to refer to "the Victoria University of Manchester's Department of Neurosurgery" rather than "Manchester University's Department of Neurosurgery", for instance. I don't there's any ambiguity in the terms is there?
  • Changed to £950,000.
  • Duplicated wikilinks have been removed.
  • I've stuck a "the" in front of "main store".
  • "Seconded" is a common or garden everyday term isn't it? It means a temporary transfer of employer.
  • It had to be "Thirty-four" in the lead as that's at the beginning of the sentence.
  • It's Leavitt 2007, now fixed.
  • I've removed Lavington 1980 and Williams 1997 from the Notes.
  • The paper was submitted and published in 1936, in the 1936–37 issue of the journal. Hopefully the citation now makes that clear.
  • Removed all publisher locations.
  • I've standardised on Resurrection (The Bulletin of the Computer Conservation Society).
Malleus Fatuorum 01:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only that the article uses both "University of Manchester" and "Manchester University", and it's not clear that those are one and the same

Leaning to support on prose and comprehensiveness. Some comments, many of them minor:

  • We learn in the lead about the world's first stored-program computer. That term then first appears in the first section's second paragraph; meanwhile, its first paragraph has discussed Turing's model and von Neumann's architecture definition. That first paragraph should explicate the extent to which the term is applicable to Turing's model and von Neumann's architecture (i.e., even if the term was not then in use, the reader needs to be told explicitly whether those embody the same concept and hence are what developed into the stored-program computer).
  • The wrong expectation is produced (in me at least) by three section titles. Looking at the TOC, we have Programming, First programs and Later developments; to me (in the context of a Mark 1 article, as opposed to a History of computing article) this implies a continuing focus on work done with the Mark 1. The article structure would be made clearer with something like, for the sake of illustrating the point, Software architecture, Programs written and After the Mark 1
  • "In July 1949 IBM invited Williams to the United States on all expenses paid trip" - missing word (on an); also, the compound adjective needs hyphenating (an all-expenses-paid trip).
  • "The most significant design legacy of the Manchester Mark 1 was perhaps its incorporation of index registers" - needs attributing to Lavington, assuming he indeed speculates thus.
  • In a couple of places there is what is, to me, a rogue word "for": *"which allowed for 1,024 (210) different instructions" ("allowed 1,024"), and "eight 5-bit teleprinter characters were required to encode for each word" ("to encode each word")
  • "Because the Mark 1 had a 40-bit word size" - for consistency, word length, wikified earlier, would be a better term.
  • "it was able to carry out the necessary decimal to binary and binary to decimal conversions" - needs hypnenation (the necessary decimal-to-binary and binary-to-decimal conversions)
  • "The only system software on the Mark 1 was a few basic routines for input and output; it had no operating system" - recast/rewikify to avoid leaving the reader wondering what "system software" is at the start of the sentence.
  • "rather than the more conventional "00001"" - "now conventional" would be clearer
  • The Cultural impact section has a "main article" hatnote to History of artificial intelligence; linked article does not discuss the cultural impact of the Mark 1, and in any case the cultural impact of an early computer is wider than that, so this should be a "see also" hatnote.
  • On a related note, given that the Ferranti Mark 1 was the world's first commercially available general-purpose computer, the significance of that impact in terms of popular computing today needs to be stated. In addition, there are surely applicable See also links of that kind that should be added.
  • "Not until a machine can [...] be angry or miserable when it cannot get what it wants" - as an aside, one is forced to wonder whether Jefferson foresaw that the machine would, however, have the ability to intensify said propensity in its users
  • "The Times newspaper reported" - we know it's a newspaper (though the first occurrence needs wikifying)

I look forward to supporting this nomination once these points are addressed. PL290 (talk) 09:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Replies
Thanks for taking a look.
  • I've made a small change to hopefully better explain the relationship of the stored-program computer architecture to the Turing machine and von Neumann architecture.[12]
  • The article's structure works for me. The term Software architecture has a very specific meaning that's nothing to do with how the Mark 1 (or any other computer is programmed), which is the purpose of the Programming section. First program describes, well, the first programs written for the machine, which was in use for some time; who knows what other programs were written for it? Later developments is I think better than After the Mark 1, because to a large extent the Ferranti Mark 1's development was in parallel with the Manchester Mark 1's, it didn't happen after it. Similarly, IBM's licensing of the Williams tube and the decision to build Meg were directly influenced by the Manchester team's experience with building the Mark 1.
  • "all expenses paid" changed to "an all-expenses-paid".[13]
  • "The most significant design legacy of the Manchester Mark 1 was perhaps its incorporation of index registers" - needs attributing to Lavington, assuming he indeed speculates thus." The statement is implicitly attributed to Lavington as indicated by the citation at the end of the sentence, but I'd certainly prefer not to explicitly attribute it to him as it's a widely held and uncontroversial view. It could easily be attributed to dozens of other computer scientists, the sense of which would be lost if only one of them was chosen almost at random. I think it's just about as close to general knowledge as you could get in this field.
  • I agree with you about "encode for", which I've changed to "encode", but I think there's a subtle distinction between "allowed for" and "allowed". The unadorned "allowed" carries the implication of permission having been granted, whereas "allowed for" implies that the possibility was taken into account. Not certain I've explained that very well, but I'm pretty sure that "allowed for" is correct.
  • I've changed "word size" to "word length".
  • The purpose of hyphens is to resolve ambiguity, but I don't think there's any plausible ambiguity in "decimal to binary conversion", for instance. The literature itself is inconsistent in whether or not hyphens are needed,[14] so on balance I'm against them here.
  • I've recast "The only system software on the Mark 1 was a few basic routines for input and output; it had no operating system" to "The Mark 1 had no operating system; its only system software was a few basic routines for input and output".
  • "rather than the more conventional '00001='". It's always been the mathematical convention that increasing powers progress from right to left. In fact Turing confused many of the listeners to his presentations by neglecting to explain that the conventional binary representation was reversed in the Mark 1. Remember that the modern binary system was developed by Leibniz in the 17th century, predating the Mark 1 by 300 years.
  • I've changed the "main" hatnote to a "see also".
  • This is an article about the Manchester Mark 1, not the Ferranti Mark 1. Although the Manchester machine was a prototype for the Ferranti the two were very different machines, and nobody imagined then that computers would become as pervasive as they are today. A contemporary account published in Popular Mechanics said: "While a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 10000 vacuum tubes and weighs 30 tons, computers of the future may have only 1000 vacuum tubes and weigh only 1.5 tons", As recently as 1977 Ken Olsen of DEC was quoted as saying that "There is no reason why anyone would want a computer in the home", so I think we can safely say that the Manchester Mark 1 had zero effect on popular computing.
  • I've added a link to the first occurrence of The Times and removed the word "newspaper", although I fully expect that someone else will demand that it's put back.
Malleus Fatuorum 11:49, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Responses to those responses: most of my points have been addressed to my satisfaction.
  • I remain unconvinced about those section titles; the alternatives I suggested were quickly picked out of the air merely to try and illustrate the sort of contrast I think would help, but perhaps they failed to do that. If you still think what's there can't be bettered, it's not a showstopper for me.
  • On "The most significant design legacy of the Manchester Mark 1 was perhaps ..." being just about as close to general knowledge as you could get: in that case, my issue is with "was perhaps". It would be preferable to say "is generally considered to be ...".
  • I would say "allow for" has connotations of "take into account" rather than "make possible". But it's a very minor point and I will leave it with you.
  • On ""rather than the more conventional '00001", in that case my issue is with the immediately preceding "in contrast to the modern convention". From what you say, it should be "in contrast to the established convention".
  • Point taken about lack of direct effect on popular computing, meaning it would be inappropriate to devote prose to much later developments; would not some See also links on subsequent developments in computing nevertheless be appropriate? Currently there are none.
PL290 (talk) 20:02, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Responses to those responses:
  • I won't be changing the section titles.
  • See also links are generally a sign that something's been inadequately covered in the article itself by not being linked. If you can point to any such subject then no doubt a See also section could be included.
Malleus Fatuorum 21:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Response to those responses: my unresolved niggles are not actionable per FA criteria and I am happy to now Support. I leave you with an unaddressed couple of those unresolved, unactionable niggles:
  • The second "was perhaps" needs the same treatment
  • "Modern" remains misleading: reading about an old computer, we first learn that "there was no separate program stored in memory, as in a modern computer" (so far so good); we then learn that the machine's storage was arranged with the least significant digits to the left "in contrast to the modern convention". The latter unnecessarily leads the lay reader to presume that, like the former, the "modern" state of affairs only developed later. But, as you reply above, "the modern binary system was developed by Leibniz in the 17th century, predating the Mark 1 by 300 years." Hence it would be preferable to state, "in contrast to the established convention" or perhaps even "in contrast to the convention that had been established for 300 years".
PL290 (talk)

Sources issues: None. All sources OK Brianboulton (talk) 23:14, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support; I can't see any obvious omissions or anything I'd change. One minor point (and I appreciate there may be no answer); did they have any particular task in mind for it when it was designed (codebreaking, ballistics, accounting etc) or was it purely a proof-of-concept device built in the hope that someone would later find a commercial use for it? – iridescent 21:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The answer's in the lead: "The Mark 1 was initially developed to provide a computing resource within the university, to allow researchers to gain experience in the practical use of computers". Basically I don't think anyone was really sure what general-purpose computers would be useful for back then. Malleus Fatuorum 21:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It may (emphasis may) be worth spelling that out explicitly. The likely audience for this article will presumably be people with a basic background knowledge of Turing's wartime proto-computers, who'll wonder if the military had their eyes on it. – iridescent 21:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'll give that some thought. The project was really just a few academics interested in trying to find out what computers might be useful for. A few of them had of course been involved in the development of radar and machines like Colossus, but that was then still secret, and Churchill had ordered that the machines be broken up. Certainly the military had no input into the development and no obvious interest in it. Malleus Fatuorum 22:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 20:36, 28 September 2010 [15].

Zino's Petrel

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:20, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Europe's most endangered seabird still maintains a tiny population in the mountains of Madeira despite predation by introduced rats and cats, and a fire this August which killed two-thirds of the chicks. Still, with luck the nuns may continue to wail for a while yet. Thanks to Ucucha for GA review.Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:20, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks or deadlinks. ; the external link to [16] goes to a parked page ("This web page is parked FREE, courtesy of GoDaddy.com"). PL290 (talk) 10:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks, I've removed that link
  • Comment: Sorry; with all due respect, I don't like the idea of a user-made sketch of a bird being used to lead the article; it goes a little too close to original research for my liking (it also can have potential copyright problems). Have you tried sending out some emails? I'd be willing to, if you like... J Milburn (talk) 11:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not clear how a self-made image can ever be a copyright problem unless it's an exact copy (trace and colour) of a photograph. I'm also not clear why it's OR; on that basis, every self-made map or diagram on Wikipedia is OR. No objections were made to the several self-made (not by me) images in FA Nuthatch. Having said that, the drawing is there because I couldn't find anything I could use, so if you can find an image with a suitable licence, that would be great. If not, I'd rather have the drawing than nothing. Thanks, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll make an effort to see what I can find. I would argue it's an OR issue because we effectively have what one user thinks they look like, rather than what they actually look like. Would you support the use of a picture I've painted of a mountain? And yes, the potential copyright problem is when you have copied the image exactly. If you haven't copied the image exactly, on what have you based it? There are no sources cited. J Milburn (talk) 15:13, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commons file amended to give source material. For consistency you should also challenge the map, and all other bird distribution maps. AFAIK, all are self-made, and are therefore all either exact copies of copyright material or OR. I've often produced a composite map using a number of different sources. And what about this? or this? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Diagrams and maps are not really the same thing, in most cases. Diagrams and maps are just a visual representation of data (and yeah, said data needs sources). Sketches, paintings and such have a level of artistry. This isn't really the place for this debate; the point is, I really don't support the usage of pictures like this in the vast majority of cases. On a more positive note, I have sent out a large number of emails- hopefully we can agree that a photo is going to be preferable to the current picture? J Milburn (talk) 16:20, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just wanted to comment on the user produced image issue. I see nothing wrong with this, on the contrary, the user should be congratulated and encouraged for their contribution. Encyclopaedias commonly employ graphic artists to illustrate their articles. There is nothing so different about Wikipedia that we cannot do the same. Certainly there is an amount of artistry in the image - this is a good thing and benefits the encyclopaedia. On the question of OR, the issue is no different to OR in the text, it all comes down to verifiability. We test whether text is acceptable by verifying against reliable sources, but we do not expect the text written in the article to be a copy of the source. There is no reason that images cannot be tested by verifying against images in reliable sources. It only becomes OR if images are not available in RS or the user's image does not substantially agree with the sources. SpinningSpark 17:24, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a big difference between employing a graphic artist and having user-submitted pictures. It's not that I do not support scientific drawings (or whatever the term is- I've nominated them for featured picture status before...) it's that I'm not mad keen on user-drawn scientific drawings. Again, though, this is not the place for this discusssion. J Milburn (talk) 19:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, you cannot raise an issue here and then cut off all opposition by saying this is the wrong venue. If this is the wrong place to raise the issue then strike your comments and I will strike mine. There is no difference in principle between user-drawn drawings and user-written text. Wikipedia is not usually able to verify the contribution by examining the reputation and qualifications of the provider as a conventional encyclopaedia would, but must instead rely on being able to verify the sources of that material. For all you know, the user may be an experienced scientific illustrator, then again they might not; what really matters is does the material stack up against the sources cited. SpinningSpark 00:21, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Al... right. We'll hold up this FAC and have a scrap. This is the wrong venue for a discussion on the nature of the issue as a whole, which is what we have gotten into. I have made my position clear, you have made yours clear. There's no need to set up battle lines, that's hardly going to help anything. However, the fact that you need to make reference to the "reputation and qualifications of the provider" really should be setting off alarm bells as far as OR issues go... The "reputation and qualifications of the provider" should not be a factor in any way, shape or form. That's the issue, so far as I see it, and that's why this teeters close (too close, for my tastes) to original research. J Milburn (talk) 00:46, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some additional sources that may be useful:

  • Title: Phylogenetic relationships of gadfly petrels Pterodroma spp. from the Northeastern Atlantic Ocean: molecular evidence for specific status of Bugio and Cape Verde petrels and implications for conservation Author(s): Jesus, J; Menezes, D; Gomes, S, et al. Source: BIRD CONSERVATION INTERNATIONAL Volume: 19 Issue: 3 Pages: 199-214 Published: 2009
  • Title: The separation of Pterodroma madeira (Zino's Petrel) from Pterodroma feae (Fea's Petrel) (Aves : Procellariidae) Author(s): Zino, F; Brown, R; Biscoito, M Source: IBIS Volume: 150 Issue: 2 Pages: 326-334 Published: 2008
  • Title: From the rarities committee's files: Do we know what British 'soft-plumaged petrels' are? Author(s): Steele, Jimmy Source: British Birds Volume: 99 Issue: 8 Pages: 404-419 Published: AUG 2006

The first two have some good phylogenetics, which confirms that Madeira and Cape Verde Pterodroma are monophyletic (contrary to the louse data cited in the article). There are a few more that didn't seem as interesting; I can send you a few list if you wish, as well as PDFs of the first two papers. Ucucha 15:03, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for looking. The first paper apparently deals with the status of Desertas (Bugio) and Fea's (Cape Verde), which you suggested (at GA) I removed from the Zino's article. The second may well be out-of-date if it's mainly ID, in the light of the 2010 Shirihai study. I have the Steele paper, it doesn't add anything much, and it would be a bit parochial to include it. However, if the phylogenetics you mentioned is saying that all three of madeira, desertas and feae are a monophyletic group, I really need to see the papers, since that contradicts the louse stuff. I'd be grateful if you could send be the pdfs concerned, thanks again Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:16, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll add those sources tomorrow, although they don't actually contradict what's already there. The lice data is to further support breeding isolation of madeira from desertas and separate colonisations of the two species; this is confirmed by the new papers. The fact that the louse species are different is not being used to suggest that Zino's and Deserta's are not closely related Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:51, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: In ref 2, "pp." should be "p.". In ref 16 the word "Oxford" is repeated. Otherwise, all sources look fine. Brianboulton (talk) 07:56, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm yet to get back any positive replies about a free photograph, and I'm not holding my breath with the other emails I sent out. I personally remain opposed to the use of the current image, (though I do appreciate its strengths, and I certainly don't mean to talk down your artistic ability, I don't consider it very Wikipedia) but I don't think a song and dance about it is useful or desirable. In any case, I'll give the article a read through.

  • "Predator control and other measures such the removal of grazing animals which trample the burrows, has enabled" Odd- I think it either needs more or fewer commas.
  • added comma after "control", inserted missing "as"
  • "differences in size, vocalisations, breeding behaviour and mitochondrial DNA analysis" This currently reads to say "differences in mitochondrial DNA analysis"- is that deliberate?
  • no, now ...but mitochondrial DNA analysis, and differences in size, vocalisations, breeding behaviour, showed...
  • "from Fea's Petrel's Pterodroma feae deserti from" I don't follow.
  • commas added to clarify, also linked louse
  • "Fea's Petrel's" belongs to the petrels (plural), surely? Meaning the apostrophe goes after the s?
  • shouldn't be there at all, removed
  • "the three Macaronesian petrel's are" why the apostrophe?
  • incompetence, fixed
  • "Greek "πτερον", pteron," Would the Greek not be italicised, rather than in speech marks?
  • italicised
  • "The Portuguese name Freira means "nun"; the inhabitants of Curral das Freiras (Nun's Valley) near the breeding site claimed that the nocturnal wailing of the petrels in the breeding season were the calls of the suffering souls of the nuns that had taken refuge in the valley from attacks on the island by French pirates in 1566 that lasted for 15 days." Split the sentence?
  • split
  • "seabird wreck" What's that?
  • added in which storms blow birds inland
  • "petrels at sea.[18][1][14]" Refs in order?
  • done, plus a later one
  • "include Trabeculus schillingi, Saemundssonia species and an unnamed species of Halipeurus." Links? Don't be scared of redlinks!
  • redlinked
  • "very restricted range" is repeated
  • second replaced by limited area

Nice written, well researched, comprehensive. A great article. J Milburn (talk) 01:19, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional support from Spinningspark, with the following comments;

  • This long-winged petrel has a grey back and wings, with a dark "W" marking across the wings, and a grey upper tail. The repetition of wings makes this sentence klunky. Suggest "This long-winged petrel has a grey back, grey wings with a dark "W" marking across them, and a grey upper tail."
  • Amended as suggested
  • The typical ledge plants are endemic hemicryptophytess and Chamaephytes, but grasses may also be acceptable. I think that must mean that grasses are acceptable as a breeding position but it reads as if grasses are acceptable to the ledge.
  • changed to the more neutral ... but grasses may also be present.
  • dated at between 60,000 and 25,000 years. I have added the BP epoch to this which I assume is what is meant. Please correct this if it is wrong.
  • That's fine
  • Support Obviously a decent photo would be ideal, but the drawing is essentially verifiable from the sources mentioned on the image file, & certainly an image is needed. No other points - seems a very nice job. Johnbod (talk) 03:42, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 20:36, 28 September 2010 [17].

David Bowie

Nominator(s): PL290 (talk) 18:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What can I say? It's David Bowie. I look forward to your comments. PL290 (talk) 18:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In general there is just much too much of one damm thing after another, and disappointly little analysis. There's nothing on the way Bowie at his peak became a cult hero in a much more specific way than other musicians. The prose is just about adequate, if unexciting, but gets cluttered with all the things being listed. Apart from London, and the period in Berlin, where has he been living all these years? What does he do when not doing music & acting? These and other questions remain unanswered. It's nice to see a major figure tackled, but I'm not sure I can support this without filling out these areas, though it is full and comprehensive as a timeline. Johnbod (talk) 23:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Expanded Legacy with more quotes making the point about his unique cult status: [18]
  • Also added quotes in the chronology about his cult status and impact, to supplement those added to Legacy and the lead: [19], [20], [21]
  • Added info about his life in Switzerland and his other interests; also about his moving to the US before and after Switzerland: [22], [23], [24]

PL290 (talk) 10:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where are these bits (from the last point)? I can't see them. Otherwise improved. Johnbod (talk) 01:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Diffs now appended to my last 3 bullets just above. I think that identifies all the relevant changes; some of the additions have had minor copyedits since. The full diff since your original comment, up to the time I write this: [25]. PL290 (talk) 07:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks. Now supporting above. Johnbod (talk) 15:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Looks good. I noticed some small references consistencies that need to be cleaned up. Ref 97 doesn't have a page number, and it and ref 123 don't seem to follow pattern of author name first. Refs 115, 117, 119 and maybe others I have missed have the first name first. You have The Independent italicized in ref 156 but not The Daily Mail in 159. Rolling Stone, an online magazine, should arguably be italicized, too. I italicized Playboy for you, and there may be others I missed. You may or may not consider Blender an online magazine as well. In ref 95 you have rockhall.com italicized, so should imbd.com be? According to Template:Cite web,

  • Work: If this item is part of a larger "work", such as a book, periodical or website, write the name of that work. Do not italicize; the software will do so automatically.
  • Publisher: Publisher, if any—for example if the website is hosted by a government service, educational institution, or company. (The publisher is not usually the name of the website, that is usually the work).

and so in WP:DYLAN, we italicize almost all websites in References, but if you interpret the above differently and have a slightly different policy, fine.
I will have a closer look at the content of the article soon, but at first glance looks good. Moisejp (talk) 12:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks mostly good. Ref 130 is still inconsistent format: The Complete David Bowie by Nicholas Pegg (2004, Reynolds & Hearn Ltd) p. 561.
  • A couple other things: "China Girl" is described as having "caus[ed] something of a stir with its suggestive promotional video." Could this be reworded? Sounds vague and not encyclopedic.
  • The paragraph about Let's Dance says it had three singles, but wasn't "Cat People" a single too? Also, in the lede it says the album yielded three hits, but "Cat People" reached #26 in the UK. Could that be considered a minor hit too? Definitely a Top-40 hit.
    • "Cat People" was a 1982 single, released over a year before the Let's Dance album. The version on the album is a later, re-recorded version. I'm loth to list too many singles in the lead, but the three mentioned were big 1983 hits (#1, #2, #2 in UK), showing the impact of the 1983 breakthrough with Let's Dance. PL290 (talk) 13:17, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Acting Career section repeats info already mentioned in the chronology. Is the section even necessary?
    • I believe it has a useful function in the article, by summarizing Bowie's acting career in one place (which also includes some more minor things that would otherwise clutter the chronology) and also by providing the introductory narrative about the relatively smaller significance of his acting career compared to his musical career. PL290 (talk) 13:17, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will continue looking through the article this weekend. Moisejp (talk) 09:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I feel this sentence in 1992–99 Electronica should be simplified (particularly the end of the sentence): "As well as performing "Heroes" and "All the Young Dudes", he was joined on "Under Pressure" by Annie Lennox, who took Mercury's part for the number one duet Bowie's 1981 collaboration with Queen had produced." Everything after "Annie Lennox" seems very wordy, and anyway, it was already established earlier in the article that the song was a #1 hit (in the UK). In this sentence calling it "the number one duet" sounds very British-centric, because, according to Under Pressure#Chart positions the song didn't reach #1 in many countries.
  • This bit also seems wordy and unclear: "The reunion led to a new collaborative effort. Among their earliest work together in this period was a reworking of Placebo's track "Without You I'm Nothing", in which Visconti oversaw the additional production required when Bowie's harmonised vocal was added to the original version for a limited-edition single release." At first I wondered, if "among their earliest work together in this period" presumably means they collaborated on other songs (early) in this period then what was notable about this particular track to be mentioned? When I read on to the next section I saw they continued collaborating around 2001 for the Heathen album. But still that doesn't really answer my question, since it is unclear when "this period" begins and ends, it's not clear if Heathen is another example of their "earliest work together in this period" or if only "Without You I'm Nothing" was "early"—in which case what was the other early work alluded to with the word "among"? In any case, could these two sentences be simplified to "The reunion led to other collaborations, including a limited-edition single release version of Placebo's "Without You I'm Nothing", co-produced by Visconti and featuring vocals by Bowie." Or if that's not precise maybe you can reword it differently.
  • I don't have a strong opinion about this, but I would consider rewording "It was not without its problems" in the paragraph 'A Reality Tour'. And just double checking, but is Scheeßel the accepted English spelling of the German city? If so, fine, but it seems slightly odd to me to have a spelling that includes non-English characters (even Montréal is usually spelled Montreal in English). But I see even the Wikipedia article is named Scheeßel. Again, just double checking.
  • "Bowie worked off-stage and relaxed from studio work for the first time in several years." Does he "worked off-stage" mean he wasn't touring? I can guess from the context that that's what it means, but the phrase itself seems unclear. And "relaxed from studio work" means he wasn't recording much? Maybe it's OK, but after this you proceed to mention several recording sessions. I understand it's meant that he only did short sessions of a song or two here and there, but maybe rather then "relaxed from studio work", something more straightforward like "he only did limited studio work" would be clearer.
  • "He then announced a break from performance for 2006." But apparently besides the two surprise performances he did in 2006, he hasn't done any touring since then. Perhaps his announcement was only "for" 2006, but it could be confusing about how long this break was meant to last and actually has lasted. Moisejp (talk) 13:10, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good. Scanning over the references, I noticed that ref 113 has the mysterious page numbers 292–2. Also, some refs use the style "pp. 252–3" while others use the style "pp. 623–624". Moisejp (talk) 12:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Refs fixed. PL290 (talk) 18:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The page numbering system still seems inconsistent to me. Ref 87 is "pp. 278–9" (only the "ones" digit is given for the second number), Ref 92 is "pp. 294–95" (the ones and tens digits are shown—most three digit numbers seem to follow this pattern), while ref 89 is "pp. 280–286" (all three digits shown). There are other refs throughout that follow the first pattern. Moisejp (talk) 13:46, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done - a couple had erroneous "p." instead of "pp.", so they eluded my check last time. Sorry to waste your time on that; should be fixed now. The convention I'm using is to abbreviate the ending page number, but give it at least two digits where possible (so, "pp. 196–97," not "pp. 196–7."), except that a dash should never precede a zero, so closing page numbers in the first decile of each hundred are shortened (104–9, 401–7, etc.). Thanks for your close attention in picking up those anomalies. PL290 (talk) 14:26, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. All my issues have been addressed. Moisejp (talk) 22:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Media licensing review:
  • Oppose pending resolution of the first two. Stifle (talk) 14:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment— It's a pity that, in the section "1969–73: Psychedelic folk to glam rock", our understanding of Bowie's breakthrough as Ziggy Stardust is disrupted by birth of his son. Para on son, and estrangement from Angie, disrupts flow of Bowie's musical development. Could a section on Bowie's personal life and family take this info, enabling smoother flow on musical development? Mick gold (talk) 11:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's a tough call. In any bio. The choice between mentioning topics during the run through the chronology (hence putting them in the context of other things that were happening at that time) and removing them to their own subsection. My feeling at the moment on this one is to avoid a separate section if possible. However, in view of what you say, I've broken the section into two subsections, devoting the second to the Ziggy breakthrough, which I think produces a better emphasis. What do you think? PL290 (talk) 13:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I still it wish it would flow from mention of "A girlfriend recalled his 'scrawling notes on a cocktail napkin about a crazy rock star named Iggy or Ziggy'." to Hunky Dory and then Ziggy album and stage show. The son and Angie are an important part of his personal life, but, for me, they get in the way of Bowie's breakthrough. Mick gold (talk) 14:46, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I're now resequenced and trimmed inessential details from the Hunky Dory para to minimize the diversion. PL290 (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think your editing has improved flow. Mick gold (talk) 06:54, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Some issues (samples):
  • "In the technical school's unusually collegiate environment, Bowie, tutored by Owen Frampton, studied languages, science, art and design." Sentence is awkward: could be restructured as "In the technical school's unusually collegiate environment, Bowie was tutored by Owen Frampton, studying languages, science, art and design."
  • "Bowie re-named himself after the the 19th century American" Evident enough.
  • Spelling: "Few had succeded as Bowie did now..."
  • Spelling: "On the 40th anniversary of the July 1969 mooon landing..."
  • Punctuation: "Voice instructor Jo Thompson describe's Bowie's vocal vibrato..." Eep!
  • Issue: "Here, too, as in his stagecraft and songwriting, the singer's chamaeleon-like nature is evident" Chamaeleon? Sounds a bit POV to me here.
  • Not really; pick up any Bowie biography, and the writer calls him that. Elsewhere, the article includes the cited quote, "Bowie has become known as a musical chameleon". PL290 (talk) 18:49, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aiken (talk) 18:02, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the technical school's unusually collegiate environment Bowie was tutored by Owen Frampton - um, why "unusually collegiate"?
  • It was an unusual tech. Someone else queried this earlier, and I tweaked the phrase; now that it's come up again, I realize I didn't really do it justice. I've now added a quote making the point clear. I think it's worth dwelling on to that extent, as it's a potentially significant part of Bowie's environment during his formative years. (Because of specific dates mentioned and the need to interleave with other events, it's now moved up into the previous section, Early years.) PL290 (talk) 19:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Graduating from his plastic saxophone to a real instrument during 1962 - "during" sounds odd here, any reason why you've chosen it over "in"? (which sounds more natural to my ears)
The venture was short-lived - might be easier just to say how long it lasted, if known.
By now Bowie had stopped the drug use... - sounds odd construction - several options for rewording.
The paragraphs in the 1992–99: Electronica and 1999–present: Neoclassicist Bowie sections are a bit small. It might be good to combine a few of them if possible.

Overall, nice job. Pending looking at the above issues, I think I can cautiously support on prose and comprehensiveness grounds anyway. I can't see any clangers prosewise and was left to quibbles above really. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:13, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 20:36, 28 September 2010 [26].

Grace Sherwood

Nominator(s): — Rlevse • Talk • 15:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I started out on this simply wanting to make Grace Sherwood the Witch of Pungo and Pungo, Virginia my first double DYK nominations (5K+ expansions of stubs). Then Malleus was kind enough to help out and said that with a little work it could be a GA. Then others such as Ucucha, MastCell, and Littleoliveoil starting helping and several people started saying "Wake up R! Skip GA and go to FAC!" (a couple threads on my talk page relate to this). Though hesitant, I decided to do so, so here I am. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments—no dabs and no dead links. Regarding "The governing bodies of Sentara Bayside Hospital overwhelmingly agreed to have Sherwood's statue in the hospital grounds,[6] Nash said "Being one of our first healers, what better place"?", I couldn't find anything about overwhelming agreement in the source, and I think it'd be better not to use that grammatically dubious quote. Ucucha 15:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, I removed "overwhelming" and left "agreed" because since it's on the hospital property, they obviously agreed to it. I think the "overwhelming" part was in a ref I later moved to ext links. Removed the "better place" quote too. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm concerned about the reliance on low quality sources, some of which I would double the reliability of, such as press releases and web-pages from local history associations and local civic / community associations. Additionally the reliance on low quality reliable sources, such as newspaper articles concerns me. Using Under an Ill Tongue (given below) to double up sourcing ought to solve this, the thesis was successfully defended.
  • I'm concerned at the absence of journal articles, scholar turns up:
    • Grace Sherwood, the Virginia Witch Edward W. James Page 96 of 96-101 The William and Mary Quarterly Vol. 3, No. 2 (Oct., 1894), pp. 96-101
    • “Under an Ill Tongue”: Witchcraft and Religion in Seventeenth-Century Virginia Lindsey M. Newman Thesis MA (History) Virginia Polythechnic Institute and State University April 3, 2009
  • USA Today is a newspaper, it takes italics.
  • Chewning, Alpheus J. (2006). Chapter author? Work author? Chapter in book edited or authored by another? Unclear. Normal you don't separately cite the chapter when contained in a monograph authored by the individual.
Fixed the USA Today issue, but bedtime for me so I'll have to work on the rest tomorrow sometime. Two questions: 1) Before I was told not to use master's thesis, is this okay now? 2) are the two refs you list available online? URLs? How can I read them? — Rlevse • Talk • 02:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I e-mailed you the first source; the second is here apparently. Ucucha 02:16, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on the field, the claims, the level of the degree, the success of the thesis, and if it is published elsewhere. You might also like Template:Cite_thesis. Under and Ill Tongue was successfully defended, conducted at a State University (ie: a reputable University), it was an MA Thesis, not an honours thesis, but yet not a PhD Thesis. There is no monograph published separately (which would be preferred). While a defended MA Thesis is less good than a scholarly press Monograph, it is superior in reliability to local community group websites. It has been subject to academic review in the form of markers / defence. Theses are very much a case by case. This one looks fit for purpose. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to update everyone, I've already started reading those two sources and they have some new stuff and mostly amplify and validate what is already in the article. When I'm done reading (hopefully tonight) I'll start modifying the article. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If I understand what you're saying about the Chewning ref, he wrote the whole book, which had a chapter called "Grace Sherwood: The "Witch of Pungo"", so I cut it (hope I read your comment right). Pls advise if this was the correct action. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done with the 4 Wmburg quarterlies, still working the the thesis ref. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have attempted to address all these. Pls re-review. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support as all comments have been addressed. Ucucha 23:55, 25 September 2010 (UTC) Comments from Ucucha. This is generally quite good, and has gotten better while here at FAC, but a few problems remain:[reply]

  • "Virginia judicial leaders were reluctant to upset the colony’s fragile social fabric by prosecuting unwarranted accusations of witchcraft. The most significant threat to the community was conviction, leading to further accusations and hysteria,"—this seems to repeat the information of the rest of the paragraph; perhaps just delete it.
  • I can't help but feel that you've gone overboard with details in the "Legacy" section. Is it really relevant to an encyclopedic article at what time of the day that statue was erected (among other things)?
  • How can there be an accessdate for the "Ding dong, the stigma's gone" article if there is no URL?

Ucucha 21:07, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • cut and ce'd.
    • I put the hour in as it was the same hour of day as the ducking, which to me at least was interesting. Perhaps we should mention this; if not, cut it. What else is overboard? What do others think?
    • Fixed, obvious goof, pasting error or whatever. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum#Grace_Sherwood_FAC_question. Based on that I'm moving the Girl Scout part to external links. Not sure what else to do. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I've been watching this article periodically throughout its development, and encouraged Rlevse to consider bringing it to FAC a few weeks ago, as I felt it was close to FA level then. The subsequent improvements, including some fine copy-editing by Malleus, have brought this article to FA level now - and it is still an interesting read. Well done. Risker (talk) 01:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I personally have an issue with the overabundance of refs, chaining three to five refs together with high frequency, but that can hardly be considered a fault. This certainly is a high quality article and deserving of Featured status. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR♯♭ 15:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 20:36, 28 September 2010 [27].

The Basement Tapes

Nominator(s): Mick gold (talk), I.M.S. (talk), Moisejp (talk) 08:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are nominating this article on behalf of the WP:DYLAN collaboration team. This is the second FA nomination for The Basement Tapes; the first closed with some support votes but no consensus. More work has been done on the article, and further indications of support have subsequently been received. Mick gold (talk), I.M.S. (talk), Moisejp (talk) 08:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks or deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 08:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support (subject to satisfactory source and media reviews). All of the concerns I raised below have been addressed. A comprehensive, well written article. The coverage of the background and context for the basement work is excellent, and the engaging Songs section provides the article with a rich core of detail about the songs and, hence, the character of the album. PL290 (talk) 13:51, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning to support. This high-quality article saw much work during its first FAC. Watching from the sidelines after a first-pass review early in that FAC, I anticipated I would end up supporting, though the FAC was eventually archived with changes still ongoing. My impression from my watchlist is that that was in fact the end of the changes, and it has now settled. I will comment again after reviewing the article in greater depth now. PL290 (talk) 08:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC) *"The Basement Tapes was critically acclaimed upon release, and reached number seven on the Billboard 200 album chart. However, the album's format has led critics to question the omission of some of Dylan's best-known 1967 compositions and the inclusion of material by the Band that was not recorded in Woodstock." - "However" seems an odd way to begin the last sentence; also it's unclear which critics are referred to: those of the preceding sentence, or modern day critics? [reply]

Changed to "Subsequently, the format of the 1975 album has led critics to question the omission of some of Dylan's best-known 1967 compositions and the inclusion of material by the Band that was not recorded in Woodstock." to clarify that it's critics in the 1990s (Gray, Heylin) who have raised these issues. Mick gold (talk) 15:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Likewise, the lack of in-prose dating of individual voices in other places, including the Criticism of 1975 album section, sometimes leaves the reader unsure whether we're talking a critic around the time of the release or a modern day one.

Date added to Gray's criticism. Mick gold (talk) 18:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Also in October, Dylan departed for Nashville, where he commenced work on his next studio album, John Wesley Harding" - ending the paragraph about Helm's return and its reasons, this sentence detracts, and is, I suggest, inessential; this is not Dylan's bio. (The mention in Legacy, on the other hand, is useful, in the context given for it there.)
This was an attempt to give a clear narrative. Dylan's departure for Nashville in October 1967 to record a new album, with a different group of backing musicians, decisively ended the Dylan-Band interaction that produced The Basement Tapes. Mick gold (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the mention of Dylan going to Nashville is useful in the way Mick gold describes above. However, if PL290 feels strongly enough that it is distracting, would it help at all if we moved it to before the sentence about Helm? While we're on the topic, I was wondering whether another word besides "departed" would be better, as now it could possibly be interpreted as meaning that Dylan moved to Nashville and left Woodstock for good. Moisejp (talk) 09:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, I agree it's useful now I understand the point—but it needs to make that point. Currently it just reads like he happened to go to Nashville, perhaps just for a couple of weeks, for all we know. I didn't read that as signifying the definitive end of his involvement in the basement work. PL290 (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now I understand, re-written per your & Moisejp's comment. Mick gold (talk) 07:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"Robertson and other members of the Band overdubbed new keyboard, guitar, and/or drum parts onto some of the 1967 Woodstock recordings" - the MoS deprecates "and/or".

OK, "and" is better. Mick gold (talk) 15:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • One paragraph seems not to belong in the Legacy section: "Marqusee describes how the basement recordings represented Dylan’s turning his back on his reputation for importing avant-garde ideas into popular culture ..." describes more the background or process of making the recordings. This paragraph would seem to fit better in an earlier section, such as New compositions.
Good point, I've moved Marqusee to New compositions & think it fits better. Mick gold (talk) 18:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*In the Songs section, the introductory line giving musicians contributes useful information, but its current format emphasizes the list-like nature of the section. Consider distinguishing it from the narrative in some way, for instance italicizing it.

I have now italicized these. How does it look? Moisejp (talk) 16:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, to me—that has made the difference. I'll leave this unstruck anyway in case anyone else wishes to comment. PL290 (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although The Basement Tapes, the album, is mostly referred to in the singular, I noticed a few sentence structures treating it as plural. It appears this is not completely avoidable, since some quotes do it too, but there are unnecessary clashes; for instance, " '... Remember that The Basement Tapes holds a certain cultural weight which is timeless—and the best Americana does that as well.' Their influence has been detected by critics in many subsequent acts."
I changed it to "The songs' influence ..." which semantically is not as ideal, because it was not so much song-by-song that they were influential, but it was as a group of songs—but at least it is grammatically consistent now. Another option would be something like "the sessions' influence" but that may not be as clear. Does anyone else have any suggestions or opinions? Also, PL290, was this the only case that you felt was avoidable, or did you notice others? Moisejp (talk) 09:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"In the early 1970s, Dylan released new recordings of four Basement Tape–era compositions" - personally I would recast to avoid what I consider an awkward compound adjective here, but if you prefer to keep it, I believe it should employ a hyphen not an en dash.

Changed to "Dylan released new recordings of four compositions from the Basement Tape era:" Mick gold (talk) 15:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The section title "Other released Basement Tape songs and A Tree With Roots" seems unnecessarily cumbersome; Other released Basement Tape songs appears to cover it, since A Tree With Roots is merely a retitling of the earlier Genuine Basement Tapes.
Shortened as per your suggestion. Mick gold (talk) 15:17, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'All of the songs were "remixed" to mono.' This can surely be expressed without the scare quotes, either by spelling out what was done, or by expressing it more generally (for instance, converted to mono).
OK, re-written to eliminate scare quotes. Mick gold (talk) 15:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PL290 (talk) 12:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC) *In the song entry for "Crash on the Levee (Down in the Flood)", after reading about the 1927 song ""When the Levee Breaks"", we are told, "Dylan's "Down in the Flood" repeated these images, adding the implication that the flood is retribution for past sins". This interpretation needs in-text attribution to its author (for example, according to Smith, Dylan's "Down in the Flood" repeated these images, adding ...). Currently it reads as WP:OR. PL290 (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC) [reply]

This point is from a review I published in UK music magazine Let it Rock in 1975 which has been reproduced online. I've added cite after consulting PL290. Mick gold (talk) 11:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They have now been wikified. Thanks for pointing that out. Moisejp (talk) 13:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The prose is very good, however there are too many quotes in the "Columbia Records compilation" section. These quotes break up the fluency of the article, which caused me to lose interest while reading that particular section. Also the continuous statements from reviewers and biographers gets quite tedious; someone says this, then someone says that, occurs a lot throughout the section. I also find that some sentences need to be explained, such as "For Robert Shelton, the song evokes the work of Fats Domino"; why does it evoke the work of Domino, is there a lot of piano in the song, or is it similar to music genres that Domino used frequently? Apart from these points it is an impressive article and I'm looking forward to supporting.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 15:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All Shelton writes is: "Consider how much 'Odds and Ends' owes to Fats Domino." as part of his wider point that that this album could have been titled Roots. He doesn't say why. The song is not dominated by a piano riff, like much of Domino's best-known work. Should we drop this comment? Mick gold (talk) 15:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should probably drop the comment. It's not essential for music critics to play musical instruments or have any other experience musically, so some of them can compare music inaccurately. Reading Robert Shelton's wiki biography he seems to be more of a journalist than a musician, so his claim is likely to be inaccurate, as he doesn't seem to be able to explain why he's made the claim.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 15:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Moisejp (talk) 16:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Mick gold (talk) 16:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Following Kitchen Roll's suggestion I have shortened a couple of the longer song descriptions. In the case of "Tears of Rage", perhaps the Marcus quote did not add too much that was not already said in the Gill quote preceding it. I also shortened the Gill quote in "Open the Door, Homer". If anyone disagrees with these particular edits, they can be reverted, but I am sympathetic with Kitchen Roll that this section could perhaps be trimmed slightly to the most relevant or interesting points (although what is interesting will of course depend on the person). If anyone wants to revert my edits, perhaps we can find other little bits here and that could be whittled down a tiny bit—if other reviewers agree this is a good idea. For your part, Kitchen Roll, are you more satisfied with the article overall with these edits? Please let us know if you have further feedback. Thank you. Moisejp (talk) 14:53, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that the quotes you got rid of were necessary, so I support the two edits made by Moisejp to remove them. Is there any sheet music that can be referred to for any of the songs, in order to help show the compositional techniques used, rather than to just quote the biographers? Or maybe you could rewrite some of the longer quotes so that they just quote the key writer's key points and rewrite the rest, like with quotes such as "cool cowboy vocal". If this isn't possible I would still be satisfied with the article, but I think it would be better if there weren't so many quotes or if they didn't come one after another.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 15:58, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The thing about the quotes for the songs is, they provide a way for Wikipedia to talk about the songs without WP:OR. (The alternative is just a list of songs.) The quotes are bound to come one after another, given the short section for each song, but that needn't be a problem if the resulting prose is engaging—which in my view, it is, and is made more so by the quotes. In my judgement the article would benefit from retaining the two Moisejp removed. PL290 (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The other sections in the article have a fluency that the "songs" section, in my opinion, doesn't, because of the amount of quotes in it. I also find that there's something missing from this section; it doesn't get a chance to develop, because there's so many different people's opinions in such a short passage of writing. Another aspect that doesn't particularly help is the song by song layout, which ordinarily I wouldn't have a problem with, but in this case I think the combination of the layout and the quotes prevents fluency. Of course I won't oppose over this, but I think it's an issue to consider. If you think the quotes add something to the article, reinstate them, but my preference would be to drop them.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 16:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand—and thanks for your understanding. As to reinstating the two that were removed, let's see what other opinions there are first.PL290 (talk) 17:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would support restoring the Marcus quote on "Tears of Rage", it's a strange comment but oddly memorable. Moisejp's editing of Gill's comment works for me. Mick gold (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/Query - Issue of capitalisation has been raised per MOS. Most literature on this album, including Greil Marcus's original 1975 sleeve notes, Sid Griffin's book Million Dollar Bash, and Shelton consistently capitalise The Band, including mid-sentence. Therefore I would favor this format: The Band. Mick gold (talk) 16:38, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this is the correct way to write it. The way I understand it, a lower-case "the" is applied only when the band's official title does not include it, e.g., "Buffalo Springield" ("the Buffalo Springfield"), "Faces" ("the Faces"). - I.M.S. (talk) 16:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... The MOS appears to have changed since the last time I looked at it. I must say that it is rather confusing. Any opinions? If I am interpreting the MOS correctly, I suppose we shouldn't capitalise, after all - The Beatles seems to have adopted this rule. - I.M.S. (talk) 16:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, MoS seems to have possibly changed. The link PL290 provided gave the example of "the Velvet Underground" with a small t. I didn't look too deeply, and if there are other examples in MoS that can be interpreted another way—or if, for example, as I.M.S. says it may be a case of whether or not the "the" is part of the band's official name or not—I am very open to discussion for which format to use, but that one example at least would seem to indicate that MoS's current standards favour a small t (in the Velvet Underground's case the "the" is part of the band's name, isn't it?). Moisejp (talk) 00:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm eager to resolve this issue, as currently we have an inconsistency, with the first three "mid-sentence" cases of "The Band" using a large T (one in the first sentence and two in the Infobox) and all other mid-sentence cases of "the" throughout the article using a small t. I believe Mick gold prefers quite strongly using big T's. I have a bit of a preference for small t's but at the end of the day I think matters of style are arbitrary and either is fine as long as we are consistent. It appears MOS favours small t's—or does anyone interpret its explanation and examples differently? Just now I have basically run through how far we got in this discussion on September 11–12, but nothing was resolved then. So, if any other editors would like to give their opinions about this matter, it'd really help us to settle this issue one way or the other. Thank you. Moisejp (talk) 13:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reading MOS again, I see big Ts are optional for wiki-links. Mick gold, is that why you changed the t in the first sentence to a big T? If it's optional, I'd prefer to be consistent with whatever style we end up choosing for the non-wiki-links. Moisejp (talk) 13:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that was why I selected the optional large T for the the wiki-linked Band in the first sentence, and in the info box - beneath the image of the album cover. The rest of the article now has "the Band" in mid-sentence which I have accepted as per latest diktat of MOS, but 2 optional wiki-linked usages seemed acceptable. MOS permits the examples of The Beatles, The Velvet Underground, and I ranked The Band in this august company. Mick gold (talk) 14:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Then in the Dwarf Music section should "the Byrds" and "the Band" (both wiki-linked) be capitalized—though maybe we don't even need a wiki-link for the Band there. Also, in Legacy, "the Cowboy Junkies" and "the Waterboys". I still think for people who read without paying attention to whether or not a given band name is wiki-linked or not, having all small t's would be more consistent, but if you feel strongly that you prefer wiki-linked names to be capitalized, I am willing to go along with that, but if so let's capitalize the ones I mentioned above as well. Moisejp (talk) 22:37, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy to go along with your magnanimous offer to retain capital T for The Byrds, and The Waterboys [28] if that's OK with you & MoS. Cowboy Junkies do not take 'The' because it's not part of the name of the group [29]. FWIW, for me, it will always be The Beatles and The Band because 'The' was an important part of their graphics (think logo on Beatles' drum-kit) and their album packaging. regards Mick gold (talk) 06:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's settled then, The Byrds and The Waterboys it is. Moisejp (talk) 11:08, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This sentence from Reception and Sales doesn't seem quite right - Robert Christgau gave it an A+ in his Village Voice "Consumer Guide" column,[1] and commented on how the recordings sounded richer and stranger in 1975 than when they were made: "The basement tapes were the original laid-back rock, early investigations of a mode that would eventually come to pervade the whole music. (?) - Otherwise the article has improved...Modernist (talk) 20:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain further please, Modernist? I don't understand your point. What doesn't seem right? Jezhotwells (talk) 23:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The quote from Christgau was accurate, but maybe it was a bit opaque. I've edited & simplified Christgau quote. Mick gold (talk) 23:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
that would eventually come to pervade the whole music - the whole music? the whole of music? the whole music field? all of the music? The thought needs to complete itself...Modernist (talk) 23:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well it is what Robert Christgau said, and it was perfectly clear to me, but Mick gold has revised that section now, anyway. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well it isn't clear and Mick's revision is, so - Support as I did before...Modernist (talk) 23:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: I reviewed the sources at the last FAC in July, saw little wrong then. Sources still look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 22:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong support: I have re-read the article twice more and really see nothing amiss here. I would like to echo the comments of DCGeist in the first FAC "You've taken a very complicated story—has any other album ever had such a complex compositional history, complex production history, and complex distribution history?—and made it accessible and engaging, with a backbone of solid, wide-ranging research. [...] An article of which to be proud." Comments with which I wholeheartedly concur. Disclosure: I reviewed and passed this article at WP:GAN. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and recuse, listy and too long. The article is 9,384 words of readable prose. The "Songs" section is a list that is tedious reading and detracts from the article; it could be moved to a List page and linked in a hatnote at the "Tracks" section. That same section also has incorrect use of WP:ITALICS. Once the article is trimmed, we may get more prose and MOS reviews. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kitchen Roll, I don't think the songs can be ordered in a chronological manner. Apart from knowing the songs were recorded roughly from June to October 1967, no-one has any idea what order they were taped in. Some guesses have been published by critics like Heylin, but they're totally speculative. Mick gold (talk) 22:10, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment/Query - Sandy has 2 objections: listy and too long. I thank PL290 for taking the trouble to draft a different format, but I don’t find the sandbox suggestion very convincing. It's still long, and, for me, by losing the titles in bold, the prose sort of runs together.
I suggest the only way to deal with Sandy’s 2 points is to cut the songs from the main article, and link the material in each song in some way.
There is already an article called List of Basement Tapes songs. I don’t think we should integrate our material with that. It already lists 100 songs, and therefore serves a different function, and is written in a more basic style. Perhaps we should create a list page called "List of Basement Tapes Songs (1975)". Then track listing could be placed in middle of aticle & wiki-linked through to songs on this list. I think I favor this approach.
Alternatively, we could create a unique article for each song. Five songs already have their own articles: "Tears of Rage", "Too Much of Nothing", "Ain’t No More Cane", "Down in the Flood", "This Wheel’s On Fire". "Open the Door, Richard" has its own page but it’s a different song, (the version performed by Jack McVea and Count Basie). So a new page should be created as "Open the Door, Richard (Dylan song).
What do other editors think? List of Basement Tapes Songs (1975) or unique article for each song? Or A N other approach? Mick gold (talk) 22:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I think creating a song article for each track would take time to create for one, as The Basement Tapes is a double album, and also I don't think all these articles would meet the notability criteria. Creating a new article called List of Basement Tapes Songs (1975) would work, however some notable info in terms of the album's success should still be kept on The Basement Tapes page. I'll let you know if I come up with any alternative ideas.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 22:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think List of Basement Tapes Songs (1975) would be OK. We would still need a track listing with brief details in the parent article. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks PL290 & Kitchen Roll, the more I think about it, the more List of Basement Tapes Songs (1975) looks like the right way to go. It would be easy to transfer our song-by-song analysis, and where the "Songs" section occurs, we could move the track listing from end of article, with just composer credits, and wiki-link to "1975 list". I'm happy to make change tomorrow, if no objections. Mick gold (talk) 06:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that List of Basement Tapes Songs (1975) is the way to go. Moisejp (talk) 11:39, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it's the right way as well. List of Basement Tapes Songs (1975) sounds good to me. - I.M.S. (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/Query I've initiated re-structure via creation of List of Basement Tapes songs (1975). I've wiki-linked all songs in track listing to this article. Would it be a good idea to place guidance (eg "For a more detailed analysis of these recordings, see List of Basement Tapes songs (1975).") at the top of the Track listing section? Mick gold (talk) 14:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think wikilinking each song is the way to go; why not just a hatnote, see also, at the top of the section? At any rate, since the article is now a decent size, I'm striking my oppose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:54, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Sandy. I don't feel confident about selecting appropriate hatnote. Other editors welcome to hat. Mick gold (talk) 15:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the links to the individual songs and added a "See also" hatnote, as suggested above. Moisejp (talk) 22:28, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment/Query I realise that Sandy cautioned against wiki-linking the songs to the "1975 list" but the trouble with the way the article now reads is the only songs that wiki-link are those with their own article. These articles are, on the whole, poorly written & poorly referenced. Surely it is better that "Too Much of Nothing" should link to "Too Much of Nothing" and not to “Too Much of Nothing”. Surely it is better that "Tears of Rage" links to "Tears of Rage" and not to "Tears of Rage". Surely it is better that these songs link to aticles that are well written and well referenced, rather than to articles that are poorly written and poorly referenced? Mick gold (talk) 06:47, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. While it would be nice if those individual song articles were of higher quality, that's not your responsibility as far as this article is concerned. It is most helpful to the reader if all of the Columbia album's songs are wikilinked and most helpful, again, if they are linked to the highest-quality destinations, which in most or all cases happen to be the individual song sections in the new list article.—DCGeist (talk) 04:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've altered wikilinks as discussed. Mick gold (talk) 07:52, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Just went through the whole article. Made a few, relatively minor copyedits. Encountered no substantive problems. One of the most important and intriguing albums in the history of rock music has an article worthy of it. Excellent work, folks.—DCGeist (talk) 07:40, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Raul654 01:24, 28 September 2010 [30].

School for Creative and Performing Arts

Nominator(s): Nasty Housecat (talk) 00:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I bring you another school from off the beaten path. This one has it all: Sex scandals. Arson. Swimming pools, movie stars, and MTV. Behind the drama is a pioneer in school integration and arts education, which I think makes an interesting read and I hope makes a worthy Featured Article. With many thanks to Ruhrfisch for the peer review and Dabomb87 for the MOS review. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 00:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If the people listed under Alumni are indeed notable, they should be red-linked (WP:RED); if they're not, I'm unclear why they are listed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:31, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they should. I've red-linked them. Thanks. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 00:52, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Minor fixes:-

  • Ref 2 "Vaccariello, 1993", Ref 56 "Vaccariello & Pyle, 1993". Assuming these are the same source, consistency of format required.
  • Refs 5 & 6: not sure about the formatting here. I think there is a "cite case" template, which provides a standard format for legal citations.
  • Ref 8 (Jacobs and Felix): why has this been formatted deifferently from Ref 9 (Griffin)? Both refer to chapters from the Levine and Havighurst book.
  • Ref 10: Link The Cincinnati Post. Look for other required linkings
  • Ref 81 has "retrieved", the standard is "Retrieved" (cap) - check for others.
  • Refs 96, 109: Include Cromwell and North in the citation, for clarity
  • Ref 127: Cincinnati Magazine should be italicised

Otherwise sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 10:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have addressed all of these issues now. Thanks. Refs 5, 6, and 100 use the cite court template. It seems a bit flaky to me, but I am not sure how to format these by hand. Is there a better template? --Nasty Housecat (talk) 15:23, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have tinkered with the cite court citations and made them a bit more informative. The WP:Citation templates page isn't much help, but you could use the Roe v Wade example to see if you can improve further. Brianboulton (talk) 16:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. I see the problems now. I tweaked them a bit more and I think they are now all as they should be. Thanks. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 18:02, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good: all sources problems now resolved. Brianboulton (talk) 00:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support As noted above, I peer reviewed this and almost all of my points were addressed then. I find the article meets the FAC criteria. My only remaining question (which does not detract from my support) is whether it would be useful to give either the year of graduation or the years of attendance for notable alumni. I think this would help provide some context for the reader, and have seen the year used in a similar way in FAs like Ohio Wesleyan University. Nicely done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Ruhrfisch. I agree that the years of attendance/graduation would be helpful, if available. Unfortunately, that information cannot be reliably sourced for most of the notable alumni. That they did attend/graduate is well-documented. When they did so seldom is. Even the school does not include years in their public alumni lists. Feeling that it was best to be consistent and include it for either all or none, in this case, I had to choose none. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 02:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I well know, sometimes information is just not available, so I struck my quibble. Thanks for the explanation, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image check: Save the logo at the top of the page, all images have free licenses. The logo has a FUR that appears to meet policy. I will defer to others on that point, I will also defer to others over any personality rights issues with the two celebrity portraits. Imzadi 1979 → 06:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - everything that I tend to nitpick on (sourcing issues, comprehensiveness of the article) is fine. Kudos to a superb job on this article. It manages to largely avoid succumbing to WP:SOAP (unlike most other school articles I've ever seen written), and provides an incredibly detailed history of the school. Well done! Cam (Chat)(Prof) 22:29, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the support. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 01:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not thrilled with the prose yet.

  • Why is "high school" linked? Although "elementary" is North American, in the context a non-American would have to be a dunderhead not to remember it means "primary school" elsewhere.
  • "building, site"?
  • "starring" is a bit rich for a reality series. Puffy.
  • U.S. where the second dot is also the sentence period ... Chicago MOS has just announced that the dots are evil: US now.
  • "less than 20%" ... number vs quantity?
  • "The emphasis of the school is on performance and students in ..."—"The emphasis is on performance, and students in ..."
  • "second highest-scoring public school"—scores second-highest among Cincinnati public schools on ... See Noetica's opinion on my talk page. Often better to rephrase a triple hyphenated item.
  • "A limited number of extracurricular activities are offered; students are expected to commit significant after-school time to preparation in their arts." Arts plural is odd. And isn't the main curriculum devoted to arts? I don't get it.
  • Why the bunched linking here: "the only fourth-through-sixth-grade school". And really, these grades are no mystery to readers of English. Can you avoid the quadruple monster, please? (Put the head of the noun group first (school ...).)
  • "The curriculum centered around art, instrumental music, choral music, dance and drama, and was ungraded to allow advancement as soon as students were ready to assume greater challenges." What does the second half of this sentence mean?

I haven't read further, but this would benefit from an independent copy-edit. Do you know word-nerds who would help? Need to be unfamiliar with the text. Tony (talk) 13:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review and comments. I will address your specific suggestions and the prose more generally in the next couple of days. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have addressed all of your specific comments above now, and made quite a few copyedits throughout to tighten and Polish. While I am shooting for thrilling, I will settle for not bad. ;-) --Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Leaning towards support by Karanacs. Overall, I think this is a very good article, and very close to meeting the FA criteria. I am especially impressed at the high level of sourcing, which is unusual among school articles. I do think there are a few improvements that could be made.

  • Need a citation for the number of students- The school, with its 650 students, moved into this historic but blighted neighborhood, and its Old Woodward School building at 1310 Sycamore Street.
  • As Tony says, the prose is not quite there, but I think it's fairly close. I thought the history section flowed well, but after that the prose was often clunky or overly verbose. A little tightening - with some strategic rewording/eorganization - would polish up the rest of the article. Karanacs (talk) 13:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I will work on tightening the prose in the next couple of days. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the citation requested and reworked the prose quite a bit to tighten and polish. Is it better now? --Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still not overenthusiastic about the prose, but it is a little better. Karanacs (talk) 19:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 21:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Image review issues:

  • File:Waldrip Dickinson.jpg: The OTRS confirmation was not added by an OTRS member. While I recognize that Nasty Housecat is largely responsible for uploading Michael Husman's photographs, I think it would be better (transparency-wise) if an OTRS-authorized editor was to confirm the ticket. An OTRS member could confirm it here.
    As an OTRS member, I can confirm that the ticket is valid, even though the Permission had been added by the uploader himself on Commons-Upload. I cannot look into the (deleted) enWP version of the picture, but guessing from the ticket reply, there it was an OTRS member who put up the ticket. --Guandalug (talk) 15:14, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Guandalug. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the deleted file and User:Shell Kinney checked the OTRS permission on the English Wikipedia on Dec. 19, 2009. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:SCPA Logo.PNG: Why is it not possible for the photo of the building, which the organization is going to reside in, as the identifying image?

Just the above two. The rest are fine. Jappalang (talk) 08:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. I posted a request on the OTRS noticeboard for verification of the first image. The logo is fairly iconic for this school. The building is new and not yet widely recognized. For recognition purposes in the infobox, the logo does work better. However, if there are questions about the logo fair use rationale, I will glady remove it.
The new building will become recognized for the school eventually, but right now the school is in there. The article has no critical commentary about the logo (i.e. no significant third-party comments about the logo), so it does not seem to be used for any purpose other than for identification; this purpose fails because I think such a picture is readily replaceable with the photo of the school. Jappalang (talk) 02:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point, but I am not so sure. To the the extent that the rationale claims the significance of the logo is to help the reader identify the organization, assure the readers that they have reached the right article containing critical commentary about the organization, and illustrate the organization's intended branding message in a way that words alone could not convey, the logo that has identified the school for 37 years does serve that purpose and the image of the new building would not. I expect the same rationale is the reason nearly all school and university FA's lead with the logo in the infobox (as suggested by the Project Schools Article Guide), including the recent promotions here, here, and here. -Nasty Housecat (talk) 02:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The project guideline states "preferably with", not "it must be" (there are logos/badges/crests that are in the public domain, hence "preferably with"). The recent promotions of those articles do not assuage my concern (Wikipedia:Other stuff exists); I was not a participant in them nor was this issue fully explored in them either. Jappalang (talk) 00:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. My understanding of WP:LOGO#Uploading non-free logos is that non-free logos may generally appear in the infobox of the organization they represent. I think the issue actually was well explored at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Royal National College for the Blind/archive3 But since there seems to be a good faith difference of opinion here, I have posted the question at WP:MCQ in the hope that other opinions will prove helpful.
In my opinion is will always be fair use to make one use of an organisation's logo in their article in the infobox, whether or not there is any commentary on it because of its value in recognition, which is independent of a picture of their building. If the logo cannot go in the infobox or top, or get commentary then it should not be used as a decoration. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Use of a building to identify an organization is certainly a valid notion (e.g. the United Nations, BMW, etc.) In this case, however, I'm not sure the SCPA building(s) would be distinctive enough to fill that role. In the same vein, however, I have to wonder how many people in Cincinnati have even seen this logo before (i.e. have the prerequisite familiarity for it to be of any value in terms of recognition). Even further, how many people in the US have seen it? In the world? The notions that the free prose (NFCC#1) of "The School for Creative and Performing Arts (SCPA) is a magnet arts school in Cincinnati, Ohio" is not sufficient to identify the organization and that organization logos get a "free pass" do not reconcile with policy. If the logo were indeed meaningful, wouldn't there be source-able discussion of it? Where, for example, did the information about the author and symbolism currently in the image summary come from? Could that be sourced and expanded upon in the article? Alternatively, has any investigation been done as to whether this is free (e.g. as a logo created in 1973, it was likely published before 1.1.1978 - did such publication occur in compliance with US formalities?) Эlcobbola talk 14:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for commenting. To answer your questions:
    • The logo has been used exclusively as the public-facing brand of the school since 1973 and appears prominently in all public communications, which, given the performance activities of the school, are many. It will be recognizable to anyone who has ever has contact with the school. It would be recognized by most people in the greater Cincinnati area, most people in the arts education community, and was seen by anyone who watched the MTV reality series.
    • There are no source-able discussions of the logo that I have been able to uncover.
    • The logo was published in 1973. No copyright formalities were followed.
--Nasty Housecat (talk) 15:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Upon further research, I have confirmed that the logo was first published in 1973, without notice or registration, and is therefore public domain in the US. I have tagged the image PS-US-No notice and moved it to Commons. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 19:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on. How was it published? Note that US copyright law defines "publication" as "the distribution of copies or phonorecords of a work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending. The offering to distribute copies or phonorecords to a group of persons for purposes of further distribution, public performance, or public display, constitutes publication." (p. 5 United States of America: Copyright, Law, as consolidated 2009) The emphasis on "copies" is mine. The point is creation does not equate to publication; examples of publication of the logo would be: printing it in reports, creating badges/accessories of it and selling/giving them, etc.
Please provide information on the first publication of the logo; this helps us to verify that said publication did occur at that time without the copyright notice or registration. Otherwise, the logo remains unpublished and is copyrighted until 70 years has elapsed after the passing of its creator (Erv Raible as you say), which would not be anytime soon.[31] Jappalang (talk) 02:11, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Jappalang. I do understand the distinction. The logo was used, without notice, on school "spirit gear" (clothing, rings, buttons, etc.), on school brochures, and on posters, playbills, programs and other performance memorabilia, examples of which are memorialized in photographs taken before 1978 and/or which indicate the year, for example File:SCPA Spring Festival Poster 1976.jpg. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 04:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is a good find; the 1976 poster helps to show the no copyright publishing. There is only the matter of providing a source for this image; see WP:CITE#IMAGE (where this image was obtained should be clearly stated). Once that is done, there would be no issue for this logo. Jappalang (talk) 15:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Must have gotten lost in translation. I've re-added the source and copied the full description with PD copyright rationale to the Commons version. The WP version is flagged for deletion. I think we're good now. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 18:02, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are right in practice, but under "Permission" is the unlinked text "PD-US-NO NOTICE". Should this not be a link to a notice, or the insertion of a notice? What was the intention here? hamiltonstone (talk) 03:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It refers to the license type, namely, Public Domain because published without notice. It is more fully explained in the License section where the template of said name resides. Commons Helper added the Permission line automatically when I moved the file. If it does not belong there, please delete it. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 12:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I read the template instructions and fixed it. Should be squared away now. Thanks. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 19:25, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note, I have stricken the copyright concern as the logo seems to be verified as published without copyright notice. However, the logo at the source (and poster that was referred to) is an inverted version of the image here (black and white are reversed). Is this intentional and accurate? Furthermore, neither source nor poster has the text "School for Creative and Performing Arts" below the logo. Should the article not be using an exact (what the school actually uses) representation of the logo and not a derivative? If this inverted version is also an official logo, then it should be explained and sourced (to avoid any disputes). Jappalang (talk) 03:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have uploaded a new version, freshly snipped from the official website, sans the text. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 03:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have made an SVG of the logo and put it into the article. Feel free to edit or revert it if it is not accurate enough or such.
No issues with the images—all verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 06:18, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Support Word choice: "The curriculum centered around art, instrumental music..." How can it center around something, especially numerous things? It should center on it. Punctuation: "The school competes athletically in Cincinnati's Independent conference in boy's and girl's basketball, boy's baseball, and girl's softball." Careful with the apostrophes. Aiken (talk) 23:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I've made the corrections.--Nasty Housecat (talk) 23:18, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the swift response. Aiken (talk) 23:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quick driveby note: "center around" is perfectly correct grammatically as a verb. OED: to centre (or be centred) about, around or round: to have (something) as one's or its centre or focus; to move or revolve round (something) as a centre; to be concentrated on, to turn on (see TURN v. 3); to be mainly concerned with. First recorded use Freeman, Edward A., The history of the Norman Conquest 1868 – iridescent 19:51, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But for multiple things though? Aiken (talk) 22:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I'm happy with the resolution regarding the image, and the prose, while not the best at FA, I think is now sufficiently in order. I'm impressed with the level of scholarship and sourcing for the type of article (a high school), so: well done in that regard. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:55, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 02:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I have seen Sandy's comments, I have to oppose at present. Sandy sets a high standard in some respects, but the need to make thorough use of the Ohio State Education dept scorecard, and address issues that it raises, would be a deal-breaker for me. This is a major source that should underpin an extensive range of facts i think - student numbers, demographics, performance etc. I also mustn't have paid attention by the time I got to the end of the article - I agree that a search should be made for sources more reliable than Imdb re alumni. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:45, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the demographics and ACT exam performance are already sourced to this report (as ref 98). Do you have other suggestions? I will address the deficiency question in the SandyGeorgia thread, but my feeling at this point is: having now read the whole report card in context, what do you think it should say? --Nasty Housecat (talk) 21:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Thanks for including the data based on the scorecard. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments and for the support. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 19:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Questions

This nomination looks about ready to wrap up, but I have a number of questions to be resolved first. Many of the sources are not online, or fee required, so I'm not able to resolve some of this myself (which may leave our readers in the same position). SandyGeorgia

  1. External links lists this as the school's webpage (which says it is a K–12 school), but that page is under construction and contains no links to additional information (which makes it harder for me to resolve some of my questions, and leaves readers nowhere). On the other hand, information from their website is still available, but not linked from the new website page. What gives? Can't we direct our readers to some of the info still on their website, or is all of that info considered outdated?
    Two more: what about http://www.thenewscpa.org and it looks like all the links in the sources to their website are copyvios. Per WP:EL, we should never link to copyvios. Do they have permission to scan up all those articles? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:19, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. On the topic of it being a K thru 12 school, I am left completely befuddled in the "Admissions" information as to how admissions will be determined for K thru 3 grades, particularly with respect to auditions (overlapping the "Arts" section). We're not told much about K thru 3, and that is a very young age for students to be subjected to the rigors of a performing arts school-- surely those ages will be handled differently? Also, we just aren't told much at all about what the education of a K thru 3 student will look like, relative to the older ages.
    Struck because it appears there is no more info from reliable sources, confusion due to the recent merger of the two schools; this should be added as info becomes available. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Additional info added by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. On that topic, I can't locate any info about continuing attendance should a student's artistic ability be determined inadequate at some point after acceptance. What happens to a student accepted in kindergarten who doesn't continue to show professional artistic potential as s/he advances thru the grades? Is continuance/advancement to the next grade in all grade levels guaranteed, or do students have to demonstrate ongoing potential in order to stay in the school? Can students be "uninvited" as they can in other pre-professional performing arts programs if their potential isn't up to pre-professional levels? Must students justify their continuance annually or bi-annually as in some pre-professional arts programs? In general, admissions vs. continuance and wrt each grade and auditions is not well explained here.
    I see the evaluation policy for continuance is included in the 2009-10 handbook; that could be included here. (I still can't find more recent tuition anywhere online, though.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Text added by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Because a number of the sources aren't available online, I'm unable to understand the scope of some sentences (samples only):
    • Of the approximately 350 arts schools in the United States, SCPA is one of the oldest and most prestigious and has been cited as a model for both racial integration and for arts programs in over 100 cities.
    • The technical and production aspects of performances are handled entirely by students, an unusual level of responsibility even among arts schools.
    Corrected by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:27, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    These are samples only of a confusion I have throughout the article; does the article refer to public (magnet) arts schools, or do these statements also purport to cover private pre-professional arts schools? If they do, they don't seem correct to me, so I'm interested in seeing the exact text from the sources. Could you please put a quote here of the exact text from the sources? Or do we need clarification by adding the wording "public schools"? That is possibly an issue throughout the article.
  5. I'm finding serious underlinking everywhere. Off the top of my head, there is a Supreme Court case mentioned but not linked, a 1965 civil rights suit, "the award-winning Crest Hills Year-Round School", "international contests like the World Piano Competition and the American High School Theater Festival", and many terms relevant to the arts are unlinked (I recall seeing stage management, for example). A linking review is needed-- I saw a lot but can't remember all of it.
    I addressed this, pending review by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Passages like this one are very confusing:
    • SCPA students and faculty perform with professional companies and in major venues including Carnegie Hall and the Kennedy Center. Students perform with every major local arts company, including the Cincinnati Opera, Cincinnati Playhouse in the Park, and the Cincinnati Ballet, and appear in local television programs and commercials. They have performed on PBS with the Cincinnati Pops and toured with Broadway productions including 42nd Street and The King and I. Students on tour continue their studies at "set school" and rejoin their classmates when they return.
    Some students? All students? A few select students over the years (which is more typical of pre-professional performing arts schools). This passage gives us the idea that all students do this routinely; is that true? Similar is found throughout.
    Corrected by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  7. As of last night, this page showed a deficient state report card (school not meeting minimum state academic standards and some other state requirement), but the page is gone today. What gives? This is not mentioned in the article, but since the page is gone this morning, I can't elaborate.
    Found the State Report Card on another site. It they in fact have a deficient report card, how is this possible? " On standardized tests, SCPA ranks second among Cincinnati public schools".
    Also appear to be deficiencies at the primary school level.
    Report Card info added by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. A WP:MOSNUM check is needed throughout-- numbers greater than 1,000 should have commas.
  9. Prose:
  10. It's 2010; why are we citing 2006 tuition? "Tuition for the 2006–2007 year was $6,309 for out-of-district students and $9,654 for out-of-state students ..."
    It seems nothing else is available in reliable sources (this should be updated as info becomes available). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Extracurricular activities and sports: does Ohio have physical education minimum requirements? How are these met in this arts school? For example, do dance and theatre movement classes count towards PE requirements? Or is PE a regular, state-mandated part of the regular curriculum?
    Responded below, apparently there are no reliable sources to resolve this, not a big issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:24, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  12. I don't understand this:
    • Advanced students study up to two hours each day in their major. Forty percent of the students stay at least two hours after school for rehearsals, private lessons, and productions.
    Two hours each day is low relative to private pre-professional arts schools-- this makes no sense to me. And why aren't the other 60 percent also involved in productions each day? That is standard for pre-professional private arts schools.
    Struck because there is apparently no more info in reliable sources, but this is not indicative of a top-notch, "prestigious" arts school on the national level (see neutrality concerns elsewhere in this discussion and the talk page here). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    "Prestigious" removed by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  13. There is no mention anywhere of how SCPA students do (college admissions, academics, for example) or comparison to Walnut Hill School, Interlochen Center for the Arts, or other private schools. Is there nothing in the sources? I'm surprised if there's not.
    Struck because there is apparently no info in reliable sources, but further concern about neutrality relative to claims SCPA is a "prestigious" school on the national level, when all of the sources show a troubled institution with a deficient academic record and a less-than-stellar arts program relative to others. It seems they were elevated to national prominence via one alum and MTV, and then compromised their admissions process to ride that train to success. I don't see them having either alum, an arts program, or participation in prestigious competitions or events beyond what is common for all arts schools, and they aren't nationally known. Are there any national level sources that accord acclaim to this school? See discussion below. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    "Prestigious" removed by Nasty Housecat.
  14. On neutrality, I'd like to see the full text supporting this statement placed on talk here, including any other critism from that source (or others) of the school.
    That source is quite old; is there nothing newer? Is there no other criticism in any source? Personal opinion alert: I'm somewhat horrified at the notion of 10-yos being exposed to such a competitive audition process, considering the ego issues involved in the performing arts. What is fine for high school is less fine for 10-yos, IMO. I'd like to know more in this area, and if there are no other sources, and whether this article is neutral wrt criticism. I'm even more concerned if that competition is extended to kindergartners.
    Found this from a source already in the article (I'm beginning to worry about neutrality, particularly since I can't access most of the sources): "But, Wyant-Zenni admits, there’s no guarantee that all of the students have a passion for their magnet school’s mission. Despite the fact that SCPA seniors netted $8.5 million in scholarships and grants this year, she estimates that 40 percent of the 200 students she sees every day aren’t serious about artistic or academic performance. “A lot of us [teachers] end up being a babysitting service,” she says." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:54, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - there seems to be a lot of material in this reference, not all of it covered in the WP article. Could be used more extensively, including in respect of the point identified by Sandy. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree- there are remaining issues of neutrality here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I will try to work it in, but have been hesitant because the article is a profile of one teacher and the statements are her opinions. I am sure some of what she says is true, but would like to avoid the "according to one SCPA music teacher" thing. Allow me to think about that problem briefly before I deal with this. I am open to suggestion. --Nasty Housecat
    I have added additional commentary from that source. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 21:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC) (talk) 17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Struck, looks good. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Sourcing: it was my understanding that IMDb is not a reliable source, except for the barest minimum of basic info. I believe notable alumni should be better sourced.
    Also, quite a few of the notable alumni citations do not cite that those people attended SCPA-- perhaps the page links are wrong, but they need to be checked-- I couldn't find most of them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:04, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Comprehensiveness: college scholarships are mentioned, but what about scholarships for students at SCPA? What percentage, average, etc?
    Nasty Housecat answered (below). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  17. This source mentions that most of the MTV students were new, accepted via late auditions (August), and that parents of current students were upset (regular auditions were held earlier).
    Balance added by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  18. It's not clear to me what ["National Winners". Alliance for Young Artists & Writers. http://www.artandwriting.org/awards/NationalWinners. Retrieved 2010–08–03.] is sourcing. The source doesn't mention SCPA, and another source gives the name of a student that is not mentioned in this source.
    Removed by Nasty Housecat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  19. A deadlink has appeared (tagged). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:16, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since Karanacs is recused, if these concerns (and the outstanding image issue) are resolved, I may need to punt this FAC up to Raul654, since I've now substantially reviewed the article. I've numbered my concerns so that responses can be placed below my post. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pending resolution of the sourcing on alumni, and clarification that Jappalang and Hamiltonstone are satisfied, I am close to support. Raul will have to close this nomination, which may involve some delay, due to his announced travel plans. If Nasty Housecat has another FAC to put forward, an exemption from the "more than one nom at a time" would be in order, in the event of any delay. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:51, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Responses
I can answer a few of these: #1: The web site was commissioned over the summer, and scheduled to go up on September 1. It is now delayed at 'any day now.' #3: Students must pass grade-level-appropriate practical examinations, called 'boards,' in order to remain in a major. Students who fail two boards must either gain acceptance to a different major or leave the school. This should be detailed in the school handbook, if my memory serves. #7: The secondary was ranked 'effective' by the state of Ohio, which is a passing ranking though not the highest rank available. The primary school was ranked 'excellent.' Both of those scores are from the 2009/2010 school year, when the two were separate schools. School report cards are also available at the state board of education web site. #11: Ohio does have a mandatory PE requirement; dance students are exempt. #12: Not all of the school's majors require participation in theatrical productions: creative writing, for example, and visual arts. In any given production, not all students in eligible majors who audition are accepted into the production. #17: There were two seasons of "Taking the Stage." The first season starred mostly people who were already students at SCPA; the second season made the change of starring mostly new students, which did result in the criticism you mention. For whatever all that is worth... -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! On #1, yes, I see that is causing some of the problems; I'm wondering if this FAC is premature, since this is the first year of the combined schools, and we don't yet have full info? #3 More info of the type I was inquiring about is in the 2009-10 handbook, and might be added here. #7 There are five rankings according to that website, and SCPA landed in the third group, so how is it one of the top schools in Cincinnati? Also, another site shows problems at the elementary level as well. #11 Can we find a source and work in some info that dance students fulfill their PE requirement in their coursework? What about acting movement classes? #17 Some of the criticism of the late acceptances for the second show might belong in the article. Thanks again, I see Nasty Housecat is already at work on this list. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just putting this here for the record, although I don't see any problems and am glad FisherQueen added that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My goodness. My article inspires the reviews of both delegates. I do not know if I should be flattered or afraid. :-) But thank you for your comment.s I will try to answer them as best I can:
1. The school website is apparently being updated to reflect all the changes associated with the move (presumably including the information regarding the K-3 curriculum). If it is correct to EL the old pages, too I am happy to do so. I've replaced two of the newscpa.org scans with online sources and deleted two of the links where online sources are not available. Archival coverage of more recent Cincinnati Enquirer articles is unfortunately spotty.
I think it would be helpful, and not violate EL, to add some of the old website pages to EL for now, and remove them once the new page is up and running. We need to somehow direct our readers to something in the interim. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Added a link to the old site. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2. The Schiel program (K-3) was apparently open enrollment, but does not say so explicitly. (See here). There is no indication how or if that will change in the K-12 format.
OK, I guess there's not much we can do there except possibly work in some info about open enrollment for those grades? We need to somehow indicate if those very young children are being subjected to rigorous auditions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I found a news source on the open enrollment and added it. Fun fact: apparently people used to camp out overnight to get a spot. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
3. I added a few lines on the proficiency review to the Arts section. I can't find any more recent tuition information, either. The most recent application packet says to call the CPS Treasurer for information.
Struck that, good. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
4. I have added quotes to the citations for the claims you mention. The sources for these and similar claims to not distinguish between public and private schools. It seems safe the assume they mean all arts schools.
It doesn't seem to safe to me, and some of the statements in this article compromise neutrality. On the national level, and in terms of the national press, and relative to other arts schools, SCPA is simply not a "prestigious" institution, even if one Cincinnati-based journalist thinks it is, and I submit that info does not belong in the lead, rather attributed as one local journalist's opinion within the body. Unless there is some national-level coverage supporting this institution as "prestigious", my personal information says it's not, the article is POV, and what I see is a very troubled institution being promoted via a redevelopment of the area in the local press. We need national-level sources to make some of the broad claims being made in this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I deleted the prestigious claim. Are there other claims you think are POV or not sufficiently sourced?--Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that was a major sticking point to me, as it was one of the first things I saw in the article, and it caught my (negative :) attention. Other than that, there is a bit more criticism (identified above) that needs to be worked in for balance (I've caught up on striking now), and I still don't understand the academic deficiencies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
5. I have linked the terms you noted. The court cases are all cited in the references. My last FAC got dinged up for overlinking, so I am admittedly link shy. It would genuinely help if you could point out specific things you think are not common terms.
6. I tweaked it to make it more clear.
7. The school failed to meet one AYP goal, namely, math for students with disabilities (p.4) and so got slapped with a deficient rating, but standardized scores are excellent (p. 2), which supports the claim.
I'm still not clear on this-- we have several sources showing academic deficiencies-- clarification still needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I'm the one not clear. We have a state report card showing high scores and a deficient rating despite AYP in all but one subject. It is a notable fact of the school, oft noted in press coverage, that its scores are among the best in the CPS. How should I work the deficiency in without overstating it or undue weight? The other site points to pre-merger Schiel scores, which, while around the district average, don't call out a deficiency. Did I miss something? --Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:42, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The part I'm not clear on is why we're adding:
  • On standardized tests, SCPA ranks second among Cincinnati public schools",
without mentioning that they have a third-level ranking in CPS and deficiencies? Are schools in Cincinnati all that bad? Why are we highlighting one area in which they excel, if there are deficiencies? Worried about balance. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:48, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am seriously not seeing the third-level ranking you refer to. Can you point to it? --Nasty Housecat (talk) 17:07, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From this page, we learn that Cincinnati public schools have six report card rankings: Excellent with Distinction, Excellent, Effective, Continuous Improvement, etc. (see the left-hand side of the screen, just above "State Indicators"). SCPA only ranks third (Effective), yet other text gives us the idea that it is one of Cincinnati's top schools. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I read the report card, "Effective" means the school either met less than 94% of the indicators (it got 19 of 24), or has a Performance Index less than 100 (it got a 98). Yet on page 1, it clearly shows that all indicators in all categories are far above the district average. So I don't see any tension with the widely published claim that the school historically had some of the highest test scores in the district. There is no direct comparison table, and it seems to me an exercise in OR is required to determine how to interpret these ratings. If I were doing the OR, I would say that the graduation rates and 11th grade exams alone justify the claim that it is one of the best schools in town. But I am not. To claim that the school is merely "deficient" overstates the case, since we know it was technically deficient in one thing, and that thing only. Where there is more to the story, we should tell it. But I clearly have to surrender on this point. So what do you think it should say? --Nasty Housecat (talk) 21:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm off for the evening, Hamilton may have better ideas, but how about just a straight statement of what is on that page: In a CPS rating system of ... blah, blah, blah ... SCPA was ranked "Effective" in < year >'s Report Card. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That works. So changed. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 02:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
8. Saw one and fixed it. Did I miss any?
9. Fixed all.
10. See above. They don't publish it anymore. The alternative is to delete it, I'm afraid. Would that be better?
11. Great question. Sources do not say. I know anecdotally that dance at least at one time counted for PE credit, but have not seen that in writing.
12. The source only says at least forty percent do, and for at least two hours. I, too, expect that it is more, but I have no source to that effect.
13. There is no league table or other direct comparison. I am loathe to synthesize the comparison for fear of OR.
14. I have added the quote to the citation. Criticism regarding neighborhood objections to the school, serious mismanagement, and the series of sex scandals is faithfully reported, as is criticism of the visual arts program. I added a line and a note in the citation on the rationale for the grueling audition process. To the personal note: there is other commentary in the sources to the effect that the school feels learning to deal with rejection is an important part of preparation for a real-world arts career. It seems they start that training early.
I also came across mention of one young girl being murdered as she was walking home? Seems significant. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Esme Kenney was murdered while jogging at home (see here). She was a student, but it cannot be construed as reflecting on the school. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 21:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks-- I encountered it in one of the sources, but then couldn't find my way back to the source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:05, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
15. I researched the IMDb question extensively, and while not finding a definitive answer on WP:RSN or elsewhere, was satisfied that the consensus allowed it as a source for mere film credits. The question is, IMO, murky as all get out, so I am open to more expert correction on that point.
There are a ton of IMDb threads on RSN-- it is not reliable beyond basic stats-- it is user-submitted info. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I removed or replaced all the IMDb refs.--Nasty Housecat (talk) 02:16, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
16. There is no indication that there are any scholarships at all for SCPA students. It is a Cincinnati school and out-of-district students have to pay up. The sources talk about scholarships for private lessons, but do not say how much or how many.
Struck. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the image issue is in fact resolved. Jappalang and Hamiltonstone are both satisfied now.

--Nasty Housecat (talk) 01:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Late here, I'll get on the rest tomorrow. We seem to be on opposite time schedules! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
17. I have noted the MTV criticism.
18. I deleted that claim.
On the other points:
  • I don't think the lack of detail on K-3 admissions and curriculum make this premature. The article is as comprehensive and current as RS will allow. Details on that question were not available even before, and can be added as (and if) they are published, as with any other article.
  • The claim is not that the school "one of the top schools in Cincinnati", but that it ranked first on elementary school tests. That is what source specifically claims, and the report card shows scores well above the district average, which tends to support that specific claim. I did address the reportcard question above.
  • I just don't have a source on the dance / PE question. If FisherQueen knows of one, that would be excellent.
    I've left dance / PE unstruck for now, pending feedback from FQ, but it is not a major sticking point for me. If we can get the additional criticism (mentioned above) added in, and the academic deficiencies issue resolved, IMDb removed, and linking corrected, I'll be Supporting. Nice work so far! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Nasty Housecat (talk) 02:21, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

19. Fixed the dead link.
I'll look in the morning when I'm fresh, but for tonight, the linking issue might give you something to work on. See WP:MOSLINK for guidance, and WP:RED. There has been a focus lately at FAC on WP:OVERLINKing, but we've moved too far in the wrong direction here. There are still numerous things that should be linked, even if redlinked, including the court cases, any orgs that meet notability (to encourage article creation), all of the relevant arts terms (you still need lighting design, set design, costume design as examples only-- the idea is to focus on links that enhance the article, give readers info relevant to this topic-- overlinking is when you link terms that the readers of this article will never want or need to click on. I'll review and strike more tomorrow ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:30, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. I'll have to work on that later. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:42, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think I addressed most of the linking; are you happy with it? I saw some more missing hyphens, but those sentences would have to be recast to address them-- check again? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:10, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing remaining for my support is that many of the notable alumni sources do not source that they attended SCPA-- could you review all of them? There are still some hyphenation problems, and the dance / PE issue, but neither of these impact my suppport. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:40, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added sources that link all the alumni to the school. Where I couldn't find one offhand, I just deleted the name for now. I'll dig around later. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:09, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are some of the web citations there duplicates to establish notability? Some of them still don't verify SCPA, but in the case of double citations, perhaps they are in the offline source? I can't tell. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they are to verify notability. Most of them are verified by 136 (Sams is on page 3). The Cincinnati Magazine sources are offline (but generaly available on Google Docs for the deeply curious).--Nasty Housecat (talk) 16:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'm moving to support now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the Dance/PE thing isn't in the school handbook, I don't know of another reliable source that would verify it- I could go ask a dance teacher, of course, and would be happy to do so, but I don't think that meets Wikipedia's requirements. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:15, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support. And the workout. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 05:34, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tony1

Needs scrutiny throughout, especially after the top. A spot-check of small portion of the prose in the middle revealed glitches.

  • "Noted for its 106-foot-high (32 m) rotunda and 110-foot-long (34 m) mosaic murals depicting the history of Cincinnat". As the MoS suggests, why not reverse the order to dispense with the double hyphenation? "Noted for its rotunda 106 feet (32 m) high and its mosaic murals 110 feet (34 m) long depicting the history of Cincinnat".
  • "The plan was approved in April 1975 and due for completion for the 1976 school year." Should there be a "was" before "due"?
  • "Jewish Community Center 1⁄3-mile (0.54 km) away". If the software makes simple fractions larger than life, let's not use them please. And why is a fraction converted to a decimal? Why not feet (meters)? And why is there a hyphen with "mile"?
  • "The Union Terminal project derailed when the"—can't be intransitive, can it? was derailed? Maybe I'm wrong, though.
  • "Once one of the largest German-American neighborhoods in the United States and a famed entertainment district in the 19th century,"—So does "once" refer to "the 19th century"? If so, we don't want both items. And I see 19th century spelled out a little later.
  • "Underground Railroad": I guess the R alerted me to the possibility that this might mean something other than steam transport. Do we need to divert to the link to find out? Tony (talk) 16:25, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the hyphenation problems are because I didn't know how to recast the sentences to avoid them (I agree the 1/3 is clumsy, but also couldn't figure out how to remove it). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you "Supporting" if you're responding (or not responding, as it appears here) to reviewers' issues? There's a conflict here. Tony (talk) 03:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What conflict is that? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These specific issues have now been addressed and other minor glitch-fixing has been done. I have asked for help from other editors in making a (hopefully) final polish, which help I expect will be forthcoming shortly. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 19:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 03:30, 25 September 2010 [33].

Exelon Pavilions

Nominator(s): Ruhrfisch and TonyTheTiger

I am nominating this for featured article because WP:FT changed the FT requirement to having at least 50% featured content effective on September 1. Although Millennium Park has not yet been officially demoted, it is now one featured article short of the requirement and will be demoted any day now. If this article gets promoted, it will enable the topic to regain its FT status. Over the last week Ruhrfisch (talk · contribs) has copyedited this article very extensively and also responded to a peer review by Neutralhomer (talk · contribs) and Nasty Housecat (talk · contribs). At this point the article is more his work than mine in a sense although the majority of the content is probably from my work. I believe that after all his efforts this is one of WPs finest articles. He and I will respond to any concerns posted here.TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:09, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would say it is a joint effort Tony. My thanks to you and to the peer reviewers, who really helped polish the article. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: In general sources look OK. I was slightly concerned with 21 citations to an Exelon press release, but many of these are double refs and anyway are mostly for routine factual information. Brianboulton (talk) 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks Ucucha and Brianboulton - I can remove the Exelon press release from the double refs if desired (just use it where it is the only source for things like number of solar power modules and power output). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The only thing I have seen is the sources in the lede. It is my understanding, that if the information is sourced in the main text body, it is not necessary to source them in the lede as the lede is supposed to a "short version" of the article you are about to read. That is what I was told on my FAC. If this is correct, I recommend removing the sources from the lede as they seem to be in the text body. Otherwise, I see nothing needing corrections since the last I looked during my PR. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Historically, there have been two styles of WP:LEAD. There have been fully cited and fully uncited styles. In one style you cite factual claims in the LEAD in need of inline citations. In the other you wait until the first instance of the fact being in the main body and the LEAD summarizes facts that are cited elsewhere in the main body. Historically, either style has been acceptable at FAC. Articles which are half way in between and cite a few things have been told to pick one style or the other but not be half way in between. I am not sure about your specific case, but I have generally summarized historical convention. Things change and it may be the case that in the future or even already only one style is permitted at FAC. I am not aware of a current convention as such at this time. I believe many of the other 8 FAs in the topic use the cited LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – References 23 and 27 are PDF links, which should be noted in the citations. Seems pretty solid otherwise. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I looked this one over, it meets the criteria. I have a number of small quibbles which I will put on article talk page in due course, of which the largest is it isn't made clear to the reader that if Grant Park was to remain free of buildings, how it was that it acquired buildings, perhaps the nominator could look over the background section with an eye to those not intimately familiar with Chicago history, beyond, of course, the minimal success of its baseball teams.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:17, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks very much for your support. I am looking forward to the quibbles and we will do our best to address any issues you raise. The ban on buildings / height restrictions on structures in Grant Park are referred to in various sources, but we have been unable to find an explicit height limit (this also came up in the Harris Theater FAC). I know Tony has contacted the Chicago Public library about this, but all the materials they found did not include an actaul height limit. This is original research on my part, but my impression on how these escaped is two-fold. 1) Since Millennium Park was new (reclaimed) parkland that had been rail yards and parking, people tended to focus more on the ~25 acres (10 ha) of new park, and less on the new buildings added within Grant Park. 2) While buildings seem to be allowed as long as they are small and/or below a certain height, the real focus seems to be whether or not there has been a lawsuit seeking to remove them under the Montgomery Ward restrictions; we found no such suit(s) for Millennium Park, but there has been a legal fight since over building a new Children's Museum in another section of Grant Park. Finally I note that all of Millennium Park is on top of an underground parking structure, and it contains a restaurant (underground), theater (mostly underground), pavilion and fountain (both classified as art), large sculpture, small bike station (mostly underground), peristyle, and two pedestrian bidges, in addition to these pavilions. Thanks again, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:28, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nasty Housecat has found two useful sources: one on the height restrictions and one on Ward's lawsuits and subsequent legal cases involving Grant Park and structures in it (these are on the article's talk page). I had hoped to add the new material to the article tonight, but need some more time to mull over what I have read and think how best to do this. I will also add it to several other of the Millennium Park articles where it applies. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:28, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have added more to the article on the explicit height limit (40 feet), along with two refs. I added that Ward did not oppose the Art Institute in Grant Park in a ref to the website summarizing the various legal cases surrounding the park. Once it is clear that what I have added here is OK, I will add it to some of the other MP articles. Thanks again to Nasty Housecat. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:42, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, well done to both of you. Brianboulton (talk) 18:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for your kind words, sources review, and support. I will work on making the captions clearer for both images, though it may take me several hours. One of the problems is that the south pavilions are fairly small and so in an image showing all four pavilions, or even just those two, they are not very prominent given the scale required. In the first image, the north pavilions are at the extreme bottom edge, and are unfortunately partly cut off, making identifying them even trickier. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notes:

  • Is all of that bolding necessary in the lead?
    • Thanks. I agree it is a lot of bold text. My understanding is that all of the alternate names should be bolded in the lead. Since this is about four buildings, which were designed, built, and reviewed in two groups, there are seven names (4 pavilions, 2 groups, and overall) in bold. I defer to your judgment, if you say the bold should go, I will take the bold out except for the first sentence in the lead. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found some WP:OVERLINKing (much better than in previous noms, but still a problem).
  • Overuse of "also", pls check throughout.
    • I found also used 8 times, removed 6, converted the statement that Beeby was the architect for the Harris Theater and the North Pavilions to "as well", and left the fact the two of the pavilions have the exact same number of solar power modules as also. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inline left about WP:MOSDATE#Precise language, pls review.
  • Puffery, shouldn't the "Pulitzer" part be in his link, not here? "Pulitzer Prize-winning Chicago Tribune architecture critic Blair Kamin ... "
    • Thanks, since about 2/3 of the Reception and recognition section is based on Kamin's review, and he is the only critic quoted (and did the only architecture review of the pavilions we could find), we wanted to make sure readers knew his qualifications. My experience is that people outside the US or North America are not very familiar with such awards (just as I would not have known what the Ballon d'Or was without its link), so I would rather have it linked here than two clicks away in Kamin's article. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Editorialzing POV: "On a more positive note ... "

Pls run through one more time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:25, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Congrats Guys! :) Well done! :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:56, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:41, 24 September 2010 [34].

Ray Lindwall with the Australian cricket team in England in 1948

Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lindwall as the Invincibles main bowler and he was known for his classical arm action and ability to swing the ball. He completely wrecked England in the Second and Fifth Tests, and Wisden said that "by whatever standard he is judged", Lindwall must "be placed permanently in the gallery of great fast bowlers". YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I must have picked something up from earlier reviews then :) YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Your nominations are improving, I must say: nice work! Any nominations for featured topic in the offing?
    Support Tony (talk) 12:53, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Refactored per [35]; it would be helpful if nominators made sure their FACs followed FAC instructions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've just been labelled a hyphen fascist ... oh well. But here, you might consider not using the first hyphen: "equal-leading wicket-taker".
    • Do be careful with "as", a poorly engineered word in English: "Bradman used Lindwall sparingly, taking a match total of 3/45 from 25 overs as Surrey were defeated by an innings." Does it mean "because" or "while"? I wouldn't use "as" at all in such contexts. "Since", "because" where there's causality.
      • I don't believe I have done anything unconventional (at least not compared to the news eg "Matt Giteau scored all the points as Australia won 17–0" and so forth (coreelation I guess, but not causality) YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I still can't tell whether you mean "since" or "while". Did he take the the total when Surrey were defeated? If so, "when" would be unambiguous. Otherwise, I wonder whether he took it because they were defeated. Tony (talk) 12:53, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I've never noticed the "as" issue before, but that might be because I'm used to sportswriting that uses it often. What I can say is that if I saw "since" or "because" in this context, I would automatically comment negatively on it. "While" is a touch better, but I think the best fix possible would be something like the following: "taking a match total of 3/45 from 25 overs in an innings defeat of Surrey." That is about the clearest way possible to say it without getting too wordy. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:10, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ellipsis points: spaced on both sides. The MoS says it all: ""crumpled completely...in as depressing a batting performance as the tour knew".
    • Watch those repeated "then"s: "the Australian captain then apologised to Edrich.[48] Lindwall then bounced Washbrook ...". And it seems an awkward place for a para break; better after ref-tag 50? Tony (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done the rest, and "that"s as well. As far as FT goes, it already passed the 33% criteria in December 2009 and passed the 50%+1 in time for the raised bar. But as far as improving goes, this was copyedited 16 months ago (before Meckiff) and has been in my FAC queue since then :( YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  • "The pair played a key role in subduing England's leading batsmen, Len Hutton and Denis Compton..." OK, Hutton fair enough (unfortunately!) but I'm not sure I'd count DSC as subdued in the series... Maybe rephrase a touch?
Yes not phrased well YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure about "scalps" for wickets. Might raise a few eyebrows to those unfamiliar with cricket!
And another take/took in the sentence rewroded YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lindwall was not no-balled in the first match at Worcester, and so it remained for the rest of the tour." Does this mean he was not no-balled at all on the tour? It sounds a bit clunky.
  • For the Notts match, is it worth making the link of Larwood, Notts and Bodyline (and even that Lindwall modelled his action on Larwood) to give context to Fingo's comment?
Done
  • "searing yorker": Says who?
  • First test: It says Harvey being sub gave Aus an advantage. Maybe clarify as the loss of Lindwall's bowling outweighed any fielding gain, given England's relative success in the 2nd innings.
  • "who was playing across the line": Maybe add "of the ball".
  • "Hutton and Washbrook took the score to 42—England's highest partnership of the series" Even England weren't that bad! And I don't think it was their best opening stand either. Without checking, I thought they put on 100 in each innings as Leeds?
Should have been to this date YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does opinion of Hutton as best batsman need its own ref?
  • "...the second highest by any Australian team in England.[10][39] Lindwall was not able to take advantage of this, as the tourists declared before he had scored." What was Lindwall taking advantage of?
  • "believed the England selectors had errer..." Erred?

I'll look at the rest shortly, but looks good overall. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarified the rest YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did do a wikilinking run YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
here did it on all the others as well YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Aaroncrick:

  • "Fingleton described the Morris’s feat as "one of the catches of the season".—Why not Morris'?
  • Is capitulated perhaps too strong?

Aaroncrick TALK 05:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

coming. a typo YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:40, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

  • "England batted first and made 363, with Compton making an unbeaten 145, but this seemed an unlikely prospect early on." Order seems a bit skewed: would it be better to have Compton leading recovery or similar, rather than score-Compton-bad start? And (gasp!) noun-verbing!
  • "Soon after, the Australian pacemen hit Compton on the arm, and soon after, felled him with a bouncer that the batsman top-edged into his face." 2 soon afters.
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...had Edrich gloving..."
Not sure what you want here. I've linked it in any case. It's not a noun with verbing thing YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 07:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Explain why Barnes collapsed? (And I'm sure I read somewhere that his injury released the pressure on England, but not really relevant)
done. The point blank effect is in Barnes in 48 YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lindwall bounced Washbrook and was no balled by umpire Davies for dragging his foot beyond the line." States earlier that he was not no-balled in tour.
It appears Fingo made a sloppy generalisation. He does that a few times as other books also note the drag NB. It doesn't surprise me that Perry just copied it YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 07:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who dropped in on the third attempt" Dropped it? And third attempt may be unclear to non-cricketers. Dropped after three attempts at catching?
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The large opening stand came after Washbrook had decided to forego the hook shot against Lindwall's bouncers, which had brought him undone in the earlier Tests." Doesn't sound right. Brought him undone sounds a little odd, and not sure starting sentence with large opening stand is necessary as it is in previous sentence.
  • "The final Test at The Oval saw Lindwall at his best." Says who?
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 07:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "only six current Test players be allowed to represent for the hosts": Is "for" necessary? "After the hosts had complied with his demand, the Australian skipper fielded a full-strength team." Ditto "with the demand".
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...with 43 of his wickets coming..."
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ferocity of Lindwall's bouncer often prompted opponents to retreat onto the back foot before he had even released the ball.[3]" Seems an odd way to finish. Possibly move this up and finish with Wisden quote?
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Wisden quote: could it be altered so that you do not need to give the same ref twice in the same sentence? Maybe square brackets?
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 07:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Altered quote in lead to match what you did at end of article. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:37, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No other problems I can see, and I will support when these are addressed. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

done everything I think YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 07:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: No other problems. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:37, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • Background: "had been no-balled 35 times in traditional tour opener against Worchester...". Feels like "the" should be in here.
  • Early tour: Word missing from "Five of opponents were bowled" near the end of the section.
  • Same with "five these by swinging yorkers".
  • First Test: "to" is missing from "leading up the Second Test", again towards the section's end.
  • Third Test: No need for multiple Sid Barners links in the section. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:34, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:03, 24 September 2010 [36].

Quainton Road railway station

Nominator(s):  – iridescent 19:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you'll all be sad to know this is the last visit to Richard Plantagenet Campbell Temple-Nugent-Brydges-Chandos-Grenville and his very expensive train-set. When you read this, you'll see why I left it until last; for somewhere so obscure, Quainton Road has a very tangled history.

Those who've read the others in this series will notice that this one is a radical departure in style, and concentrates on the people and companies involved rather than on the layout and design of the station. The significance of Quainton Road isn't in the station itself—it was an utterly generic small rural station—but in the politics of its history. Only built because the Duke of Buckingham pestered the developers to route a new railway near his house, a series of unforeseeable decisions led to it becoming a major junction station, before going into a long decline and eventually closing. The derelict station was then taken over by enthusiasts, and eventually became a major museum in its own right.

This one also has more "background" sections than the others in the series. I know it makes the article longer, but I think it's necessary. For most of these articles, the majority of readers will be people interested in railways or engineering history, who'll understand the historical background. In the case of Quainton Road, I suspect a significant proportion of readers will be people visiting the museum or people interested in TV shows filmed there, and I don't really want to send them on a scavenger-hunt of (often very technical) railway articles in order to understand who these people were and why these railway lines were opened and closed. – iridescent 19:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fixed the licensing. My thinking with the extended background is that it's unfair to make someone read Brill Tramway and Metropolitan Railway to find out what was going on. Since the significance of Quainton Road was purely down to it being the choke-point through which Brill Tramway traffic passed, the fortunes of the station rose and fell with those of the Tramway. – iridescent 20:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Oppose 1c only over the issue of price series, easily fixed by rerunning the calculations at MW and using an appropriate measure. 2c is excellent good. I really like your books in volumes, series, series titles, etc. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC) As discussed below, the price issue is a matter for reasonable difference over, and the editor has a clear understanding of their current decision which I still disagree with Fifelfoo (talk) 15:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2c: Leboff, David; Demuth, Tim (1999). The title ends with an exclamation point, followed by a period. Only the exclamation point is necessary. Thompson, F. M. L. ; Feuchtwanger, E. J.. . Incorrect citations of ODNB, containing work not listed. The ODNB entries are Authored "Subsiduary works" contained in an Edited A greater work.
  • 1c: [no longer a cause to oppose] Capital and Consumer expenses operate in radically different manners in relation to inflation. Capital expenses are the dedication of a proportion of the total social product towards the creation of social utilities. Sending a man to the moon in 1930 would have required the entire world's output. Sending a man to the moon in 1970 merely required a massive fraction of the USA's output. Neither was experienced as the price of a sausage from a street vendor (ie: CPI). CPI is not an appropriate measure for capital goods expenditure over time. ^ a b c d e f UK CPI inflation numbers based on data available from Measuring Worth: UK CPI. "Two traction engines converted for railway use were bought from Aveling and Porter at a cost of £398" See MW "Retail Price Index:This is an index used in the United Kingdom that measures the cost in a given period of the goods and services purchased by a typical consumer in a base period" Use Share of GDP for capital goods see MW "Share of GDP: Share of GDP, measures the consumption or production of a subject (commodity or project) against the output of the economy, that is, the given monetary amount is computed as a percent of GDP. This measure indicates opportunity cost in terms of the total output of the economy." Instead of £398 being £26,400 it is the much more comprehensible share of total output in terms of 2009: £455,000.00. Engines are expensive.
  • Regarding the reference for No Need to Ask!, I know that the punctuation is jarring, but I can't see an obvious way around it. I believe that, except in a few exceptional cases, one should use citation templates instead of writing the reference out longhand; otherwise, any change to Wikipedia's in-house citation style means manually amending thousands of articles. However, both {{citation}} and {{cite book}} have punctuation after the title.
  • I'm not 100% clear what you mean regarding the ODNB references. Are you suggesting treating the entries as de facto articles within a single-issue journal? If so, while I can see the argument I'm not sure I agree.
  • I made a conscious decision to use CPI rather than share of GDP on these articles. In most cases I agree that share of GDP is more appropriate for capital expenditure, but in the contexts in which prices are used here, I think consumer pricing is more relevant as a comparator. The Brill Tramway was essentially a hobby of the Duke of Buckingham, not a viable business; in my opinion "what else could he have bought with that money?" is more illustrative in this context. Share-of-GDP also gives ridiculously overinflated figures in this context; yes, locomotive engines are expensive but we're not talking about true locomotive engines but what were in effect very primitive automobiles with a top speed of 8 mph, and a modern equivalent of £450,000 is far too high. – iridescent 09:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm glad you understand the economic issue at stake. I'm still very wary of you using CPI here, as the Duke of Buckingham wasn't in the habit of purchasing a "normal consumer bundle" with his disposable monetary assets. I'd urge using GDP per capita to reflect Buckingham's access to money flows, "includes consumption of fixed capital and undistributed corporate profits -- flows that are not part of national personal income." (indicated by "what else was he going to use it for). If you still believe personal income should be used, which I disagree with, you ought to use the GDP deflator ("is an index number that represents the "average price" of all the goods and services produced in the economy."). Thank goodness these aren't late medieval or early modern numbers where I'd argue that the non-capitalised economy was dominant! As this is a matter of editorial decision, not of research failure, I'm changing my oppose to support but still urge you to reconsider using a CPI based figure. Fifelfoo (talk) 15:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we're singing from the same hymn-sheet here (some people here may remember my rants about the misuse of wage/price indices). The problem is that there isn't really any accurate index in this context. This was the era of tied-cottages and sharecropping, where cash incomes were low but an extensive barter network was in place, so earnings always appear deceptively low. Basically, percentage of GDP will make the prices appear artificially high, but CPI/RPI makes the larger prices artificially low. As for most of the prices CPI is undoubtedly the correct one to use (ticket prices and so on), I think the confusion that would be caused by jumping between different indices outweighs any benefits from using two different indices. When all is said and done, this is an article on civil engineering, not on economics, and the prices are only there to emphasise how cheaply run the operation was. – iridescent 16:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Problematic sentences: "The 2nd Duke had spent heavily on artworks, womanising, and attempting to influence elections, and by 1847 he was nicknamed "the Greatest Debtor in the World"; "After the death of his father on 29 July 1861 he became the 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos, and resigned from the chairmanship of the LNWR, returning to Wotton House to manage the family's remaining estates." Suggest splitting both in two to avoid the repetition of 'and'.
  • Spelling: what is "Six miles (10 km) northwast of Aylesbury"? Also, I'm not too keen on "resite"/"resiting" as neither appear to be a word. I think they should be hyphenated.
  • "It is likely that the station had a single timber-covered earth platform and minimal buildings". Bit weaselly.

Aiken (talk) 22:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can't see any problem with either of these sentences; both are direct subject/object relationships. Splitting them would separate out the subject and object, and make the paragraphs in question more confusing, not less. – iridescent 19:03, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed "northwest". I've changed "resite" to "re-site" to avoid confusion; both are correct (this is written in en-GB, not en-GB-oed), but changing it does not harm and if it's causing confusion no reason for it to stay. – iridescent 19:03, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • No idea what you mean with this one. It's likely; it's not known for certain, and the fact that nobody's certain is directly cited. The blueprints are lost; the only known extant photograph of the first station is a photograph of a locomotive which happens to have a small, blurred part of the first station building in the background; none of the platform structure is visible, nor any significant element of the station architecture; the foundations were destroyed in the 1896–97 works which replaced the level crossings with the road bridge. Everything about the design of the first station building is inferred from the design of the other stations on the line. – iridescent 19:03, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not going to, and if you're going to oppose over that, so be it. This article is already extremely long; I'm not going to expand it further going into pointless detail about what isn't known about the station. – iridescent 22:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Iridescent again. There is nothing "weaselly" about stating that something isn't known for certain, and we generally should state what we think or know, not how exactly we came to think or know that. Ucucha 22:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Basically the same as guessing. Fact is, there is nothing certain about the station's architecture, and for all we know it could be radically different to other stations (which it is believed to be similar to). Historians can think what they like, whether it's true or not is another matter. Only primary sources (such as photos, blueprints) give any certainty. Aiken (talk) 22:39, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not our business to determine that. We go with the consensus of reliable sources, and as far as I can see, that consensus is that the station likely had a single such platform and minimal buildings. Ucucha 23:04, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not pointless, but your choice of course. "likely" is just very vague and subjective imo, and ought to be explained if you're going to use it. And you'll notice, I'm sure, that I am neutral not in opposition, as it's fine otherwise (though I haven't read it all). Aiken (talk) 22:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about "Historians Simpson and Horne both believe that the station had a single timber-covered earth platform and minimal buildings"? Aiken (talk) 22:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is frankly ridiculous. The sentence "It is likely that the station had a single timber-covered earth platform and minimal buildings" is followed by two citations, one to Simpson and one to Horne. Anyone who wants to know who it is that thinks it's likely can simply follow the links and find out. Malleus Fatuorum 22:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know it's sourced, but at the moment it lacks any credibility for me. I know I'm in the minority here (and perhaps the only person), but I believe such subjective statements should be made as clear as possible. I consider that reasonable. Even just using "historians" would be better. At the moment it's just left hanging. Aiken (talk) 23:03, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you were to say "historians believe", then that would imply that all historians believe. Where's the evidence for that? All that's being claimed is that two historians have offered their opinion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what the article currently says, and your proposed change would clearly not be to the benefit of the article's credibility. Malleus Fatuorum 23:09, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree but I'm clearly in the minority here so I'll just let it go. Aiken (talk) 23:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What don't you agree with? That your suggestion of "Historians believe ..." would be retrograde and unsupported by the facts? Malleus Fatuorum 23:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My original suggestion was to name the two historians, so that the reader didn't have to navigate away from the text to see whose opinion it was. Aiken (talk) 23:16, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who cares whose opinion it is would no doubt be quite happy to navigate away to find out. That's the wonder of hypertext links. Malleus Fatuorum 23:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose and comprehensiveness. I list below a number of observations for your consideration but these do not affect my support. *The lead's rather long, though it reads nicely and I admit it's not obvious how it could be condensed; currently it goes off the screen (on my viewing), so any condensing at all that brings it under one page would make it less daunting in appearance. But that may not be possible.

  • I can't see an obvious way to condense it, and trust me I've tried. The trouble is that Quainton Road has had three very different incarnations (rural railway halt; the junction between London's transport network and the mainline from the North; museum) and each of them has to be covered, together with at least a minimum of explanation as to how and why the changes happpened. – iridescent 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Quainton Road railway station was opened in 1868 [...] In 1899 the new Great Central Railway (GCR) from the north of England opened" - the lead has meanwhile covered several other events without saying when in that 30-year gap they took place.
  • I don't really want the lead to be a parade of dates. The station opening is significant enough to mention, as is the opening of the GCR line (which transformed it from an obscure outpost into the de facto boundary between North and South. The Brill Tramway developed gradually from an industrial tramway to a passenger tube line, and has no obvious completion date. – iridescent 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"It was to run roughly southwest from Quainton Road to a Wotton railway station " - I take it "a Wotton" is intentional, e.g., the station did not yet exist?

  • Yes; that paragraph is written in the future tense as it's still discussing the Duke's proposal at that stage, rather than the line as built. It was built to serve Wotton House so was always going to have a station in Wotton, whatever happened with the rest of the line; I linked Wotton railway station there as the first occurrence. – iridescent 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"a 1 mile 57 chain (2.8 km) siding" - is the chain the unit the MoS would have us use here? Having done all those railway articles, I expect you will say yes, but it surprises me; do we expect the lay reader to know such a term?

  • Railways in Britain were and are always measured in chains, even today (aside from a few exceptions such as the Eurostar route). I can say "1 mile 57 chain (1 mile 1254 yards; 2.8 km)" if you think it's necessary, but the chains should stay; most people looking up this article will expect to see measurements expressed in chains. – iridescent 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"The lightly laid track with longitudinal sleepers limited the locomotive weight to a maximum of nine tons,[32] and it was thus necessary to use the lightest locomotives possible.[33]" - what point is being made by the second half? I notice it's cited to a completely different source from the first half, but it seems somewhat tautological (or worse, contradictory, depending on what sub-nine-ton locos the reader is to presume existed)

  • The track was built for horses, and thus used longitudinal sleepers (that is, each track was built on an independent long narrow wooden platform, rather than cross-ties which would have tripped horses). Without cross-ties to keep the two rails aligned, it was unable to take heavy loads without a risk of buckling. Thus, it couldn't handle "real" locomotives—which are by their nature big and heavy—and had to use what were in effect farm tractors adapted to run on rails. – iridescent 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only available locomotive that was light enough to be used on the line were the Aveling and Porter converted traction engines, which were the lightest ones available at the time—that is, the only factor in choosing the engines was weight, hence all the later problems with unreliability, low speed, derailment etc. I don't really want to go into too much detail on the individual station articles; the technical details are better dealt with on the articles about the line itself. It's only mentioned here at all because the poor quality of services had a direct impact on use of the station. I don't agree that "limited to a maximum weight of nine tons" makes "it was thus necessary to use the lightest locomotives possible" redundant; unless a reader is familiar with how much various classes of 19th-century steam locomotives weighed, there's no reason for them to know that 9 tons was right at the lower limit of the range. – iridescent 16:37, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's just my point: there's no reason for them to know that. For all the reader knows, far ligher engines might have existed (2, 3, 5 ton?). I agree it doesn't need to go into a lot of detail, but if it is to successfully make the point you intend, it needs to explicate that that was indeed the lower limit of the possible range at that time. PL290 (talk) 18:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that does it—but "and it was thus ..." remains seemingly tautological. PL290 (talk) 18:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworded that to "The lightly laid track with longitudinal sleepers limited the locomotive weight to a maximum of nine tons, lighter than almost all locomotives then available, and it was thus not possible to use standard locomotives". I do think this is a point that needs hammering home, as it's so key to the rise-fall-rise-fall history of Quainton Road; the lack of foresight by the Duke when he built it led directly to the costly rebuilding and the ultimate collapse of all the grand long-term plans. (If it had been built to main-line specifications from the start, the Oxford scheme would almost certainly have been built, making Quainton Road the point at which the lines from north, south, east and west converged, and the Aylesbury Vale could have become the Ruhr of England.) – iridescent 18:51, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"taking 95–98 minutes to travel between Brill and Quainton Road" - would be enhanced by mentioning the distance (I don't think you said how far away Brill is, though I didn't actually go back and re-read to check that)

  • "As the only physical link between the Tramway and the national railway network, almost all of this traffic passed through Quainton Road station." - seems to need "As the line was the only physical link" or somesuch

*"With modern locomotives working services on the Brill–Quainton Road route (the Kingswood branch generally remained worked by horses, and occasionally by the Aveling and Porter engines), traffic levels soon rose." - unclear what made the levels rise. Is this connected with the locomotive purchase? Only one was said to be bought.

*"The A&B's trains at Quainton Road would miss connections with the Tramway" - unclear why high fees would cause that.

  • They didn't; the A&B had two strategies to discourage people using the Tramway. One was charging fees for anyone wanting to transfer onto the Tramway; the other was to time their trains to miss connections, in the hope that people would use road transport to complete their journey rather than the Tramway. – iridescent 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, no; they never did this officially, so "scheduled" doesn't work; their trains would just 'coincidentally' leave Quainton Road when they saw a Tramway train approaching, before the Tramway staff had a chance to transfer the cargo across. I've added a "deliberately". – iridescent 16:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"operating expenses of either goods or passenger operations" - ideally reword to avoid "operating expenses of operations"

  • Not sure about that; there were essentially two different businesses going on here. The goods operations were a loss-leader for the farms and brickworks along the route, and even if they didn't turn a profit the Duke would have kept them going to support his tenant farmers. The passenger operations were a luxury, essentially kept going as a favor to local residents, and could have been abolished without affecting the core business. – iridescent 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I prefer "operations" to "services" in this context; the goods side of things was broader than just shunting cargo about, as the Tramway also owned a brickworks and would make bricks which they'd then ship along the railway to various customers along the route. – iridescent 16:45, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "construction on the extension itself had yet to begin" - construction of?
  • "Late that evening, a two-coach staff train pulled out of Brill, accompanied by a band playing Auld Lang Syne and a white flag." - unclear how the white flag "accompanied" the train. Perhaps "and flying a white flag" or whatever verb applies (which will also help parsing; currently, the band were playing Auld Lang Syne and a ...).
  • Then perhaps "bearing" is the word that would make the difference. I had to back-track on an expectation that the it was going to be something like "a band playing Auld Lang Syne and a selection of other moving pieces suited to the occasion". (After all, they had 95–98 minutes—plus all that stoppage time while "The train stopped at each station along the route, picking up the staff, documents and valuables from each"!) PL290 (talk) 16:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "London Transport reduced the former A&B route between Quainton Road and Verney Junction to a single track in 1939–40.[107] LT continued to operate freight services until 6 September 1947, when it was closed altogether,[note 14] leaving the former GCR route from Aylesbury via Rugby as the only service still operating through Quainton Road." - unclear what "it" refers to in "when it was closed altogether".
  • "It" is the former A&B route between Quainton Road and Verney Junction. I don't really want to repeat it; it's something of a mouthful, but would need to be written in full as there were other parts of the former A&B, and other routes between Quainton Road and Verney Junction. – iridescent 20:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"As one of the best-preserved period railway stations in England, Quainton Road is regularly used as a filming location for period drama, including The Jewel in the Crown and the Doctor Who episode Black Orchid." - needs a tweak to avoid the implication that it's regularly used for that Doctor Who episode etc.

PL290 (talk) 20:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC) [reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:03, 24 September 2010 [37].

Andalusian horse

Nominator(s): Dana boomer (talk) 15:27, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Andalusian horse was a favorite of European kings as early as the 15th century and is a favorite of classical dressage enthusiasts today. They are the main feature in a controversy regarding bloodline purity and studbook rights, a controversy which makes their registration and naming system rather complicated. The article has been copyedited by Malleus, received an image review by Elcobbola, received GA and literature reviews from Sasata and had eyes on it from the other main equine editors on WP, Montanabw and Ealdgyth. Dana boomer (talk) 15:27, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments the link to this imh.org page currently gives an internal server error, even though imh.org itself is reachable. Access date given for the link is 2009-06-12, so the page has perhaps moved. No problems with dablinks. PL290 (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gah. The link is now fixed. I am convinced that IMH renames all of their sub-pages on a quarterly basis just to screw with people... Dana boomer (talk) 15:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Dana. They get bored and redo their web site. Again and again... arrgh! Montanabw(talk) 22:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Sources look fine, just a couple of formatting suggestions:-

  • The citation style is a little heavy-footed. The short citation style would give, for example, "7. Llamas, p. 313". There is no need to repeat the work title in short citations, as you have done.
  • "Great Britain" is not specific enough as the location for Harrap. Use London.

Brianboulton (talk) 13:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed the Harrap reference to London. As for your first comment, AFAIK there is nothing prohibiting the use of the title in short citations. It's the style I prefer and the style I have used in all of the other horse FAs I have written. Thank you for your comments! Dana boomer (talk) 13:55, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Brian, we got into adding titles to the short cites due to, in part, multiple authors with the same last name on some major horse works (Edwards, Bennett, etc...). It starts looking funny and inconsistent when some your cites have both author and title names but not all. I kind of kicked and whined a little about this when we started doing it, but have come around to its logic, and the format has passed muster with several previous FAs, not just Dana's. Hope this helps explain things. Montanabw(talk) 21:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Horse sense. Brianboulton (talk) 12:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your note. Also, to closing delegate, please note that a pre-FAC image review was completed by Elcobolla (I can link to it if necessary, the clearance was on my talk page) and no issues were found. Dana boomer (talk) 16:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your review and support, Rlevse! Dana boomer (talk) 14:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The breed tends to have clean legs" does clean mean not hairy in this context?
  • I've added in a little bit of explanation to hopefully clear up the jargon.
  • "There are two additional, unique characteristics of the Carthusian strain" is the comma really needed here?
  • a close-up photo of the "horns" would be neat, if available (same does not apply to the butt warts)
  • LOL on butt warts! We'd give our eyeteeth for a photo of these "horns", to be honest. There are a couple articles where it would be nice. They are quite rare, I've never seen a horse with them, as far as I know...and I've seen a lot of horses. (MTBW)
  • Ditto to what Montana says. I've searched high and low for even a decent free body shot - I ask you: what's so hard about a clean horse, with good conformation, standing still, on flat ground, with no messy something or other in the background? Apparently everything, because I've been looking for a couple of years for that exact shot! Anyways, if I ever find a picture of the horns, the first placce it's going is this article - I promise! Dana boomer (talk) 00:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while moving at the trot." I'd say moving at a trot (but then again, I don't know horse lingo)
  • "…movement consistent with the more elevated way of going typically found in this breed" "Going" sounds a little odd to me…
  • "… as a complication of the intestinal issues." May sound a bit odd unless you know the medical meaning of complication (e.g. the intestinal tissues are complicated?) perhaps a link or reword for clarity?
  • link pedigree
  • quotes shouldn't be blockquoted unless over four lines, says the MOS
  • I know what MOS says, but I would really like to keep this quote separate because it so describes the way the breed has been seen and described for over 300 years. If we can't keep it as a blockquote, what about a pull-quote in a box? Dana boomer (talk) 00:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the 16th century, Henry VIII received gifts of Spanish horses from Charles V, Ferdinand II of Aragon and the Duke of Savoy and more upon his wedding to Katherine of Aragon, as well as purchasing additional war and riding horses through agents in Spain." received … purchasing -> tenses don't match
  • "The Spanish horse was at its peak in Great Britain during the 17th century," peak of popularity? Abundance?
  • "Many Spanish explorers from the 16th century on carried Spanish horses for both war and breeding with them in their exploration and conquests." This sentence construction lends itself to humorous misinterpretation
  • "In 1832, an epidemic seriously affected Spain's horse population" epidemic of what?
  • "…and their pure- and part-bred offspring." according to the WP:Dash, hanging hyphen are discouraged (but I use them all the time; WP:IAR and all that)
  • there's a mix of studbook and stud book
  • link genetic variability
  • "A 2005 study found that the supposed difference between Carthusian and non-Carthusian horses is not supported by genetic evidence" Typically only one or a few genes are used in studies like these, so it might be worthwhile to be explicit in mentioning what genes were used in their analysis.
  • As far as I can see, the source does not give the exact genes used to determine this. However, reading genetic studies gives me a headache, and so I may have missed it :) The reference is freely available online, if you think you might have better luck with it. (Or I can just e-mail you the PDF if you don't feel like going hunting). Dana boomer (talk) 00:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Email it to me? I have everything EXCEPT Valera, M., A. Molinab, J.P. Gutie´rrezc, J. Go´mezb, F. Goyached (2005). "Pedigree analysis in the Andalusian horse: population structure, genetic variability and influence of the Carthusian strain". Livestock Production Science (95): 57–66. Montanabw(talk) 01:21, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, it's a Fst value, I'm trying to figure out if there is any way to put this into understandable English. Genetics are bad enough. Add statistical analysis to it and even I am running for cover, screaming! Montanabw(talk) 02:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC) Follow up: I put in a bit of detail for those who might care, wikilinking to some relevant articles. However, I confess that it's possibly gibberish as the calculations boggled my brain! We can toss it all if it doesn't make sense. The phrase "...is not supported by genetic evidence" is straight from the source. And they said it three time! Montanabw(talk) 02:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tweaked it a bit but it looks fine to me. Sasata (talk) 04:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, there is a slight physical difference between the two, with the Carthusian tending to show a more "oriental" or concave head shape and are more often gray in color" something wrong with the grammar here
  • "…believed to trace to the foundation stallion Esclavo" foundation should be linked here, rather than the later occurrences in the article
  • Here, the piped link is on the words "foundation stallion" the later link is directly to the phrase "foundation bloodstock," used to reference both sexes of horses of a different breed and unnamed. So there are two uses with slightly different meanings that happen to link to the same article, which covers both concepts. Not sure what the best approach is, but open to MOS comment. Montanabw(talk) 01:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "…and the strain would have become extinct if not for the efforts of the Zapata family." we don't know this for sure, so "might have" seems more appropriate
  • "Today, the Carthusian strain is raised in state-owned studs" I assumes "studs" is shorthand for stud farms?
  • "Asociación Nacional de Criadores de Caballo de Pura Raza Española" should this be in italics because it's foreign language?
  • classical dressage is linked thrice in the article
Thanks for the notes, Sasata. I'll fix some, Dana may have to fix others. Let us know if the explanations of the horse lingo help or if more is needed there. Montanabw(talk) 22:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much Sasata! I think I've gotten everything that Montana didn't - let us know if there are more fixes that are needed!


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:03, 24 September 2010 [38].

Don Valley Parkway

Nominator(s): ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it had most of the minor kinks ironed out by the time the last nomination ran its course. A lack of reviewers led to no promotion. I'm hoping for a better turn-out this time around.

I believe this article presents a better embodiment of information than any other single source available on this highway. It meets all the FA criteria and is an interesting read even to those who don't really care about roads at all. To residents of Toronto, it provides an in-depth examination of an otherwise overlooked part of the city's infrastructure.

Cheers, ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments: in full disclosure, I've helped with some copy editing during and since the last nomination. Having said that, there are no disambiguation links, and no dead external links.
  • Image review: all images are Creative Commons or public domain. There were no outstanding issues on images from the last FAC. Imzadi 1979 → 17:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - Overall a very nice article on a subject I assumed would be boring.
    • In the route description, would it be possible to have an annotated map? As a non Toronto resident, it is confusing to me.
    • Why is "traffic congestion" a subsection of "route description"? It seems separate to me.
    • "The section south of the 401 is often congested." - this sentence is overly vague.
    • "Congestion in the northbound lanes is attributed[by whom?] to truck traffic coping with the steep grade of the valley..." - This might be fine the way it is, but the passive voice and weasel words make me question it.
    • "The construction of the Don Valley Parkway changed the Don River valley." - this sentence is out of place; the following paragraph does not discuss changes to the valley.
    • The section on construction doesn't have information on the contractors who performed the work. That might be important.~~Andrew Keenan Richardson~~ 18:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Replies
  • I'm working on final touches on the map such as this. It should be up within a few days.
  • WP:HWY encourages the use of only the Route description, History and Future sections. I felt that the traffic congestion is neither past nor future, and belonged in a description of the route.
  • Haha, indeed... Though in this case the vagueness could be interpreted literally in many cases. Changing to "section immediately south"
  • The source at the end of that information is a traffic study by Toronto. The findings of that study would be the whom in this case.
  • Agreed, I'll fix this. Actually, on second inspection... The whole reminder of the paragraph discusses first the valley before the parkway, then that "The construction of the six-lane highway modified the valley through the removal of hills, other earth works and the rerouting of the Don River."
  • No sources have ever mentioned it as far as I've read. Details beyond the dates each section opened are pretty scarce. I could contact the consultation company and see if they have the name, but there would be no source for it.
I'll make the changes shortly. Running out for dinner now :) - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
About the 'changed the valley'. It's not a great sentence, agreed. That and other content was a response to a comment about the modification of the valley not being covered enough in the previous FAC review and is stuff I worked on. I'm sure I can improve that and I'll do that. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 16:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It may be possible to determine the road-builders from newspaper archives. I'll investigate that. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 16:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks serviceable in terms of prose.

  • Overlinking: MOSLINK says to avoid bunched linking; I wonder who wants a direct blue-link to "Ontario" next to "Toronto", right up in the first sentence? Readers are more likely to click on an isolated, undiluted link, the most specific possible.
  • But on the other hand, why not expand the pipe "cancelled", to "cancelled many of the others", so readers know it's not a dictionary-term link.
  • Sorry to fuss, but "Opened in" is not repeated just below, so why not remove "in"?
  • "Complex bridge structure" image: why not center it and make it 400px or so?
  • Consider removing the comma after "southern end,". Remove "which is".
  • "is available from" -> "is via"
  • Please ration "then" in a sequential narrative. "and veering" better than "then veering", for example.
  • You like the right–left–right positioning of images? Personally, I find all-right neater, but it's up to you.
  • C$ first time, I think, then just $; but no need to link it.
  • Would be nice not to have these adjacent, but I don't have a solution right now: "1965, 136". Tony (talk) 04:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alrighty, made most of the fixes. For the third point, are you suggesting I change the sentence to read "The first section opened 1961 and the entire route was completed by the end of 1966." or are you referring to the infobox? As for your "then" point, I can't find any other instances, but the one you pointed out does use it sequentially. Highway passes beneath Eastern Avenue, then veers left as it passes beneath Queen Street. In this case, Queen is just after Eastern, and the highway veers beneath Queen. As for the last point, would "136 accidents had caused four deaths and 86 injuries during the first five months of 1965." work, or did I just smack grammar in the face? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In: Sorry, was referring to the infobox; "in" is used for one and not the other line. Still plenty of "then"s hanging around. Leave in only if you need to "mark" sequence. Sequence is the default. Sometimes, "and" is preferable; often, just remove "then". Every sentence is a "then" already. 136 ... yes, that works.
  • "diverges into two branches: two lanes continuing north as the 404, the other three serving Highway 401"—"splits ... , and the three others as Highway 401".
  • Utilizes is so ugly. Why not uses?
  • Is it just the closures that manage traffic flows, or the previous items in that list, too? Try to remove "in order", too.
  • Grammar inconsistent in these listed items: "non-urgent messages to motorists, such as future construction, safety messages and smog alerts"—construction is not a message.
  • "was chosen as a way to avoid expropriation of existing development"—kill three words.
  • Do watch non-parallel grammar, in lists: "other than adding one partial interchange at Wynford Drive and the updating of its infrastructure to current standards". the addition of ... the updating of; that works. Or "adding ... updating ... Not both, though.
  • Image in the Construction section: can you brighten it a bit? Tony (talk) 16:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tony (talk) 16:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • History: Should the second valley be capitalized in "The construction of the Don Valley Parkway changed the Don River valley."? It is capitalized in the lead, but not in this section.
  • Since completion: CAA should be fully spelled out; better to avoid using only an abbreviated version when possible.
  • Future: Remove space between references 57 and 58.
  • In the references, I see both Toronto Star and The Toronto Star among the ref publishers. This should be made consistent.
  • A couple references are missing PDF indications (14 and the last ref in the bibliography). Giants2008 (27 and counting) 19:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks like Alaney made most of these fixes already... Though I question the wisdom of the first point: In this case, the valley of the Don River, only the Don River is a proper noun. Likewise, the Don Valley Parkway is a proper noun. However, the Don River valley is the valley of the Don River, and is not a proper noun. My thoughts anyways. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support promotion, pending minor comments. I was on the fence and ready to support the nomination the last go-around, but Karanacs closed the FAC while I was out of the house and away from the computer for a short period of time. I found more issues that I felt needed addressing after that closure and commented about them on the article's talk page. I've been hesitant to declare support this time because I was helping copy-edit the article in the interim between nominations. I still feel there is room to improve the article, but not to the degree that it should impede promotion. Imzadi 1979 → 20:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Oppose, but will switch to support with two fixes:
  • No referencing at all for the first para of the History section.
  • These two phrases under "Since completion" make no sense, and i can't work out a fix: "...a report criticizing the lack of safety in the completed section's design of the as yet unfinished expressway"; "...light standards exposed to traffic."
Other queries:
  • Why no reference for this: "This area, known as Milne Hollow, is partially forested, some of the land being conservation reserves." (particularly the fact that the land is conservation reserves) (also, why plural reserves?) hamiltonstone (talk) 00:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments in response:

  • The first paragraph of the History section is a summary of the rest of the section. What's the standard that applies? Or is that only for leads? I believe everything in the 1st paragraph is in the rest of the History section. So I could use those references again, I suppose. As for the sentences, just bad English. Will copy edit. I will find a cite for Milne Hollow conservation reserve (Sauriol) ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 00:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK. IIRC, I've not seen this before (summary intro paras in individual sections). Taking that on board, i looked at it again and i can see you are right. Leave it be, I think. Now that I've looked at your fix, I have only just understood that "light standards" is a compound noun referring to poles with lights on them! I've never heard that expression before, and I assumed it was about the quality of lighting! I've provided a wikilink for foreigners like me! hamiltonstone (talk) 01:03, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    To be honest I've never heard of the term either... Might be better to switch over to the more universal street light. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tricky bit of wording. It's the poles that were the safety issue. You want to be specific on the poles being the issue. Not lighting in general. The word 'standard' seems to be the technical term, in the cited article and I used it. Light poles isn't exactly right either. Street light poles? Unthinkable today, but the poles were less than a foot from the roadway. And they were supposedly designed to withstand high winds and were made of concrete. No thought to collisions. In those days, they did not put in guardrails between the directions either, or guardrails around bridges. Just no thought to the safety, it was an industry that was not yet mature. At the expense of drivers. They were really proud to be able to build the highway for only $3 million per mile but it took Shulman to wake them up to the lack of common sense in the safety design. He also took the province of Ontario to task for the safety of the provincial expressways. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 14:42, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. It would help to mention the length of the road in the lead.
  2. The first paragraph of the South of the Forks section of the route description needs citations.
  3. Try to avoid colloquial terms such as "the Gardiner", "the 404", and "the DVP".
  4. Citation needed for "North of Bloor Street, the wide valley floor became dominated by industrial concerns of the Taylor family, including the Don Valley Brick Works. The area from the Forks of the Don and north along the river valleys had been lumbered and farmed, such as at Milne Hollow, but several natural areas remained by the 1950s."
  5. "1 1/4 mile" should be properly converted to kilometers, with kilometers being listed first.
  6. "$2.723 million" needs an inflation conversion.
  7. The sentence "The ramps between the parkway and the Gardiner are directly over the Don River channel." needs a citation. Dough4872 03:40, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Replies

  1. Done, though this is oddly one of the figures that only Google Maps or a ruler, string, map and calculator can verify
  2. I'll wait and see if Alaney has anything for this paragraph. If not it may have to be sourced to a map.
  3. Done
  4. Again, I'll leave this to Alaney. I imagine its from one of the books he used for all the preconstruction stuff.
  5. Done, as well as for several other cases
  6. This one I disagree with. The final construction figure has been adjusted for inflation, but to do so for the other two or three construction figures would become somewhat redundant.
  7. I'll see if one of the revitilization projects mentions this, but otherwise it too will be a map citation. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:24, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2. is definitely a map source. It's about the connection with the Gardiner. Not sure what is debatable about this. There is a photo directly above the paragraph that illustrates this. It could go below the paragraph.
4. I'll source and cite that today.
7. Again, the photo illustrates this.
I'm no expert on Wikipedia policy, but a photo illustrating something seems good enough, no? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 16:08, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Once the missing citations are added, I will support the article. Dough4872 20:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Generally photos will pass for verification, but not for the featured article process. They are both easily sourceable to Toronto & Area. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. I've added the citations for the route description and the conditions before construction paragraphs. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 23:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The article looks good now. Dough4872 23:38, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:39, 16 September 2010 [39].

Oryzomys antillarum

Nominator(s): Ucucha 14:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good old rice rat, from Jamaica this time. It's one of the many insular animal species that have gone extinct in the last few centuries. We know relatively much about it, but most of that knowledge is buried in the older literature. This article was GA reviewed by Daniel Cavallari; I am looking forward to your reviews here. Ucucha 14:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks or deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 14:21, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, taking a read-

  • "from where it" Was going to recommend "from whence", but that is apparently considered archaic. It is, however, apparently, very formal. See here. That's actually fairly interesting...
    • I'm not particularly attached to the current wording, but I don't think "whence" (which indeed sounds very archaic) is much better.
  • "he did not know of" of which he did not know.
  • "The oldest well-dated record of Oryzomys antillarum is at Drum Cave in the Jacksons Bay Caves system, where it was found in a stratum radiocarbon dated to between 10,250 and 11,260 years before present." When was this found?
    • McFarlane et al. (2002). I actually forgot to add that reference to the list; corrected now.
  • The historical records section is really interesting, but it's not too clear which (if any) of the listed species are hypothesised to be this one.
    • The only secondary source to have discussed this I believe is Ray (1962), and the article summarizes what he said. In many cases, we simply don't know; it's easy enough to distinguish introduced mice and rats (let alone water voles) from Oryzomys with a quick look at their teeth, but those 18th- and 19th-century naturalists didn't know much about that.
  • "the latter are well adapted to" to which the latter are well adapted
    • As above.

Generally pretty good- you have weird interests! Very nicely sourced and well illustrated. J Milburn (talk) 16:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, only just noticed, my biggest gripe is the formatting on the sourcing. Article names should be "quoted", while journal names should be italicised. The way you note the page numbers is inconsistent, and a lot of the articles lack any identification (DOI? ISSN?). Those with external links should have access dates. J Milburn (talk) 16:20, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The citations of this article are styled exactly as in >20 previous passed FACs and similar to the styles of many journals in this field—most do not quote article names, or italicize journals. Things like ISSNs or DOIs aren't available for old citations; and the links provided are purely convenience links for printed citations, and thus do not need accessdates. Ucucha 17:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Our MOS is pretty clear that journal names should be italicised (see this page). Further down the same page, it notes that article titles should have quote marks. I don't mind so much about the quote marks, but the journals should definitely be italicised and the page numbering style should be consistent. Accessdates, as I said, would also be nice. J Milburn (talk) 17:06, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such inconsistency in page numbering, but books are treated differently from journals (in a way similar, for example, to the citation style of the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology). The MOS page does not say they should be, only that they can be, and again, several FAs have passed with non-italicized journals. Accessdates would just be distracting, and it is conventional not to give them in cases like this (cf. Suillus brevipes, among many others). Ucucha 17:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of the italics issue, one reference notes "620" at the end of the reference as the page number, one notes "Pp. 725–795" after the page title as the page number, another notes "211 pp" at the end of the reference (which, under any style I know, is simply wrong) as the page number. There is an inconsistency here, as far as I can see. J Milburn (talk) 23:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I treat chapters in a book (pp. before the pages) differently from whole books (after); that is the same style as (for example) the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology uses. Ucucha 23:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see practically no rhyme or reason to what you're saying, if I'm honest. I'm willing to trust you that it makes sense, but, hell, it doesn't look right to me with my Wikipedia eyes, nor with my academia eyes. J Milburn (talk) 23:49, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, wait. Explain this to me. Where do you place the page numbers? When and how do you use "pp"? J Milburn (talk) 23:51, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I use "pp." when there is no volume number (i.e., when I am citing a book, not a periodical). It goes before the page numbers for a chapter (i.e., Chapter. Pp. 5–30 in Book.) and after for a whole book (i.e., Book. City: Publisher. 200 pp.). It makes sense to me because one would say "pages 5 to 30" in the first case and "200 pages" in the second. (In this article, there is one (Long, 1774) that is slightly different, because it is a volume of a larger work that is cited, with the pages numbered continuously across the volumes; I am open to suggestions for improvement on that one.) Ucucha 23:56, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, starting to make sense to me; certainly not what I'd choose, but I can respect the right of article authors to reference in a way that feels comfortable to them, as long as it's consistent. I still feel fairly strongly that the journal titles should be italicised- I can't see an article on an album getting through without the album title italicised, nor a film, nor a species, etc etc. Sorry if I've come across a little stubborn... J Milburn (talk) 10:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I'll probably come across the same way. :-) As I (partly) said before, there are many journals in mammalogy and other branches of biology which don't italicize journal titles in the references (though some do), even though they do italicize journal titles elsewhere (see doi:10.1093/jhered/esn105 in the Journal of Heredity, for example—I went through my PDFs on oryzomyines to look for examples). Ucucha 15:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Grammar note 1 (no action needed). from where it may have dispersed — It's a pity that the useful word "whence" has fallen into disuse. Even I would acknowledge that, and I'm archaic myself.
  • Compare above. I'm tempted to actually put "whence" there; the current wording is far from ideal.
  • Grammar note 2 (no action needed). received a name he did not know of. — Conversely, the rule about not ending a sentence with a preposition is archaic now. "This is something I can deal with" is better modern prose than "This is something with which I can deal"
  • In 1993, Gary Morgan reviewed the animal — ...the literature on the animal?
  • He actually studied the animal itself, for all I know.
  • He may have "studied" the animal, but I'm not sure that you can "review" an animal, as opposed to a book
  • supraorbital ridges — redlinked and unexplained. What's wrong with ridges above the eyes?
  • Clarified. The things are called supraorbital ridges, and merit an article under that name.
  • more reddish than even the most reddish animals from Florida. — can the repetition be avoided? Perhaps more reddish than even the most strongly coloured animals from Florida. or similar
  • Used your wording (but corrected that atrocious spelling of "colored" ;-).

:*native habitat of Oryzomys was exterminated — can you exterminate a habitat? I'd apply the verb only to living things

  • Change to "destroyed".
Oryzomys antillarum is one of eight species in the genus Oryzomys, which occurs from the eastern United States (O. palustris) into northwestern South America (O. gorgasi). - erm, well no as it is extinct - need to reword to reflect this "found in historical times"? or somesuch?
Why not? The classification is attributed explicitly to Carleton and Arroyo-Cabrales, who do indeed list it as one of the eight species of the genus. Thanks for the review! Ucucha 11:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
D'oh, my bad - I see the "occurs" relates to teh genus. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
falsifies the hypothesis that it was introduced; - sounds awkward " disproves the hypothesis that it was introduced;" maybe?
Sure.

Support Comment Article looks great! Just a few comments: Sasata (talk) 16:28, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • what is the meaning of the specific name?
    • It means "of the Antilles", but no source discusses it as far as I'm aware.
  • should there be a link somewhere to Rafting event in the history section?
    • Added.
  • this source says its diet included seeds, grass, fruit and invertebrates
    • That is likely enough, but it must be speculation, and I wouldn't consider that a high-quality source on biology. It also says it was diurnal, even though other Oryzomys are nocturnal. It is possible that insular species become diurnal in the absence of predators, but I would prefer a source that provides more explicit support for its speculations.
  • this says it was a "pest of sugarcane"
    • I think I also read that a few times, but Ray considers it unlikely; all indications are that it was already rare by the 19th century and any sugarcane pest more likely would have been one of the introduced rats and mice. Ucucha 17:06, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:39, 16 September 2010 [40].

Madeira Firecrest

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Small, yet perfectly formed — at least the bird is. This little Madeiran beauty has only recently been recognised as a separate species, and since, unlike Zino's Petrel, it's not endangered, there's not a huge amount of research compared with that on its widespread continental cousin Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note that checklinks says that ref 5 is subscription only, but the full article is in fact freely available, so I've not amended the ref Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:21, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks or deadlinks. Ref 5 is indeed reachable without subscription. For that link, I suggest it would be an enhancement to link instead to the abstract page, since the current link triggers an immediate PDF download. In my view this may needlessly put some people off, whereas the abstract page gives information straight away while also providing links to the other two views (full view, and PDF download). PL290 (talk) 10:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for checking. The abstract page (actually the article's first page) is already linked via the doi, so the option is there. My normal practice is always to link to the full article if possible, but never to link to abstracts other than when unavoidable (like doi). This is because a link to a commercial page inviting purchase of the article is a bit too close to spam for my liking Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Jim. J Milburn (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, I couldn't find anything free to use

Taking a proper read through-

  • "This kinglet usually hops with its body held horizontally" What does that mean, sorry? (I see now, though it wasn't clear before- would taxonomy not go before description? That's how we do it with fungi articles)
  • "Cytochrome b gene divergence between" Suddenly very technical- links?
  • linked in previous sentence, surely overlinking to do so here?
  • "but not all authorities have recognised the new species" Who hasn't? Why not?
  • "(although the Madeiran birds react strongly to playback of the calls of mainland Firecrests)" Again, sorry, I don't follow
  • The point I was making in this sentence is that the continental Firecrests don't respond to the calls of the Madeira birds, which is evidence for species status, but the Madeiran form does recognise The European bird calls, which I thought was worth putting as a parenthetical statement Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The island form was split as the monotypic Madeira Firecrest based on differences in morphology, vocalisations, and genetics." Perhaps I'm just a little dull today, but, again, I didn't follow.
  • Yes, I've just left the description of the song in Description, and moved the lack of recognition by Common Firecrests to Taxonomy, tweaked to make clearer too Jimfbleak - talk to me?
  • "to endemic tree heaths" Like what?
  • "The clutch size is unknown" Does a reliable source note that note research has been done, or is this a way of saying "I couldn't find a source"?
  • "moss and lichens which often covers the" moss and lichen which often covers, or mosses and lichens which often cover, presumably?
  • "Even the high mountain nest sites of the endangered Zino's Petrel are not safe from these adaptable predators." A bit David Attenborough- rephrase?
  • "Data on specific parasites of the Madeira Firecrest is lacking" Again...
  • Unlike the other two instances where I have been able to provide some evidence that the research has not been done, I can't do so here. I certainly couldn't find anything, and it's an unlikely candidate, especially since there is little parasitology even for Common Firecrest. Studies tend to be done on common and widespread species where the nests are easy to find, such as swallows, sparrows and thrushes. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "although its population has not been evaluated." Again- do you have sources for these statements, or are they based on the fact you couldn't find any information?
  • Harcourt described this distinctive island form, so he is the authority for this Madeiran bird whether it is considered as a full species or as a subspecies of Firecrest. Many of Linnaeus' species aren't even in the same family that he placed them in, nevertheless, he described them, and remains the authority for all time Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:25, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Generally pretty good. I don't know if this is a touchy subject, but nominating at GAC first may have been helpful to you. J Milburn (talk) 11:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: All sources look OK, no outstanding issues. Brianboulton (talk) 15:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support with a few minor comments:

  • Instead of the current map, a map showing the location of Madeira may be more informative.
  • I thought about that, but it's easy enough to follow the link if people don't know where the island is, and I wanted to show the archipelago because this is one of a series of Madeira endemics, not all of which breed on the main island
  • [[monotyping|monotypic]] – er... (I reworded the entire sentence)
  • thanks, much better
  • Do we know why it doesn't occur on the minor islands of the Madeira archipelago?
  • None of them now have suitable laurel forest habitat. Porto Santo used to have forests, and Trocaz Pigeon once occurred there, but was extirpated when the forests went. I could find no evidence that the firecrest ever bred there, but it's less likely than the large, crop-eating and edible pigeon to have been mentioned in the old sources anyway. The smaller islands are uninhabited now, whether they were were ever capable of supporting a woodland bird is questionable.

Support (moral or otherwise) as birds wikiproject contributor. Nothing jumps out as glaringly fixable. Comprehensive and prose polished. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for review and support. I've put in all I can find, and even checked on the recent fire. Unsurprisingly, nothing regarding the firecrest, especially as their damp forests don't make great tinder.


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:39, 16 September 2010 [41].

William Calcraft

Nominator(s): Malleus Fatuorum 18:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a little something to cheer everyone up, a jolly little article on one of the most prolific and perhaps most incompetent British hangmen there's ever been. He liked to make a show out of his public executions, which were sometimes attended by crowds of up to 30,000, so he didn't want his victims to die too quickly. Instead, after he'd released the trapdoor, he'd perhaps swing on their legs, or climb on their shoulders, to entertain the spectators. Malleus Fatuorum 18:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—a dab link to cobbler, no dead external links. Ucucha 18:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • image review Both the images are suitably licensed , so no problems Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Parrot of Doom 08:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Comments - "John Foxton, who had been the City of London's hangman for 40 years" - Foxton's article says that he held the position for 40 years. Are we correct to assume that the two became acquainted shortly before his death?[reply]
  • "reporting on Calcraft's visit to Dundee in April in 1873 to perform an execution in that city" - that could probably do with a minor copyedit as its slightly confusing to read. I'd have done it myself but I wasn't sure if the dates refer to Calcraft's visit, or the report of his visit.
  • "In one of the first executions Calcraft carried out at the new Reading Gaol his victim, Thomas Jennings, took more than three minutes to die.[7]" - is three minutes particularly long for such a hanging, considering that the hanged would often be left to swing for hours, to ensure death?
  • This is probably just my personal preference coming through, but it seems to me that the "notable executions" section might suggest to some that the other executions, particularly those of the Manchester Martyrs, were not so notable. Is it worth perhaps integrating these instances into the section on his career?

Otherwise this is all excellent stuff, and I'd be happy to support. Parrot of Doom 21:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Replies
  • I've not come across any account of when Calcraft and Foxton became acquainted, but as Calcraft was born in 1800 and Foxton died in 1829 it's fair to say that they met towards the end of Foxton's life, but I think there was a tense problem there, in "had been", as he still was when they met, so I've hopefully fixed that.
  • I've reworded the Dundee visit to try and make it clearer that it was Calcraft's visit that took place in April 1873, not the report in The Times.
  • I guess that whether or not three minutes is a long time depends on where you're sitting, but the aim was to ensure that death, or at least unconsciousness, was more or less instantaneous. The short-drop method that Calcraft used should have snapped his victims' vertebrae if the knot was correctly placed at the back of the neck and the correct length of rope calculated for the weight of the person to be hanged. Unfortunately Calcraft was often unable to do either, so his victims often struggled at the end of the rope for some time. The reason the bodies were left hanging for an hour or so was to ensure that even if the vertebrae hadn't been snapped the victims would by then have died from strangulation ... I'm sensing that this is maybe too much information. Anyway, yes, three minutes was an unusually long time to watch a hanged man twitching at the end of a rope.
  • I take your point about Notable executions. I'm not certain now why I thought that was such a great idea, and integrating into the section on his career seems like a plan to me. Malleus Fatuorum 23:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • SupportComment: The first line has "was the most famous English hangman of the 19th century..." That's a pretty bold claim. Who says he's the most famous? How do they know? Aiken (talk) 13:34, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Calcraft's entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says that he was "the most famous hangman of the century". Also, he performed pretty much all of the executions in England for 45 years; his name crops up repeatedly in The Times archive, in accounts of his executions around the country. The Dundee story suggests that he was just as well known in Scotland, so I don't think it's an especially bold claim. I've cited it to the ODNB in any case. Malleus Fatuorum 14:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Slightly biased support as GA reviewer, with a couple more quick comments:
  • "It is possible that Calcraft's antics on the gallows may have been an attempt..." - though this is not a "fact", the double expression of uncertainty seems a bit redundant to me
  • "During his tenure of office the Capital Punishment Amendment Act 1868 was passed, requiring that all executions took place in private" -> "take place"?
  • Did the Capital Punishment Amendment Act apply only to England or to Britain as a whole? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:48, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Replies
  • Hopefully fixed the "double expression of uncertainty".
  • Changed "requiring that all executions took place in private" to "requiring that all executions must be conducted in private"
  • Scottish law and English law are somewhat different in the details, but Calcraft was an English hangman, carrying out his duties under English UK law. Malleus Fatuorum 01:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You refer to him as a British hangman on two occasions. The reason for my question: "Calcraft carried out the last public execution in England ... Calcraft also carried out the first private execution in Britain under the new law" - this would seem to indicate a British law, but it's not entirely clear. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:57, 16 September 2010 [42].

Wintjiya Napaltjarri

Nominator(s): hamiltonstone (talk) 04:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I'm on a mission to make freely accessible online, information about the people who have contributed to the 'last great art movement of the 20th century', and Australia's only domestic art movement of international significance: contemporary Indigenous Australian art. Thanks to User:HJ Mitchell for the GA review; User:Belovedfreak for additional comments, and User:Elcobbola for comments re the non-free use image. Just to foreshadow discussion about that image: Elcobbola raised three concerns. Two All (whether there was enough specific reference in the text to image features to warrant non-free use under NFCC#8; and an incorrect licensing tag) have hopefully now been addressed; one (resolution of the image) has not. I don't know how to alter image resolutions, but i was also worried that if it went much lower the image features might start to become jagged. I welcome advice or action on this last point if the consensus is that it is currently at too high a resolution. Thank you for your consideration. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - no dabs or deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 09:22, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Re the museum. Normally I'd be inclined to redlink it, but coverage seems very limited beyond those works that cite it as a collection holding the works of various artists. It may be better cited in Dutch language sources, i don't know. Odd, given that it is by its own account "the only museum in Europe that is entirely dedicated to contemporary Aboriginal art from Australia". I figure if I ever get to writing about it, i can do links at that time. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You give the state or territory for most but not all of the publisher locations, and abbreviate Northern Territory but not South Australia.
  • What is weaking?
  • Please be consistent in using double or single quotes.

Ucucha 10:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • thanks!
  • Comment: This is obviously a topic of genuine academic interest, and it'd be great to see some featured articles on the topic, but I come away from the (rather short) article not feeling that I know much about her. Who was she before she became an artist? Do we have a list of her works? Does she work primarily as an artist? I think there's so much more to be said here- I'd be inclined to say that it fails criterion 1b. J Milburn (talk) 11:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those are reasonable questions. I have tried to squeeze a little more out of the sources (diff), but it does not go far toward answering your concern. Your queries go to some significant issues regarding the documentation and understanding of Australia's Indigenous artists, particularly those from remote communities. Frequently almost nothing is known of these individuals prior to their becoming artists. In some cases the identity of their parents or spouses is not reported; birth dates are at best estimates; current residence is sometimes a mystery. For only a handful of artists can biographies be found that are longer than a single page, despite many of these individuals having painted hundreds of works, selling for thousands of dollars each, and having been finalists or even winners of significant art prizes. Some writers, such as John McDonald and Nicholas Rothwell, have remarked on the lack of depth to much commentary and art criticism when it comes to works of Indigenous art. In this environment, it has taken a great deal of leafing through various books to assemble the limited material such as you see in this WP article. Whether it is enough, i'll have to leave it to others to judge. While I agree it would be good to know more, there is surprisingly little more to be known. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Were this an article on a Western European artist I would indeed have expected to see a little more biographical detail, but of course it isn't. I think this is about as comprehensive an account of the life and work of a relatively obscure indigenous Australian artist as could reasonably be expected. Malleus Fatuorum 12:27, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:57, 16 September 2010 [43].

Huia

Nominator(s): Kotare (talk) 10:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because; I feel that all areas of knowledge on the Huia are now covered comprehensively by the article's content. I have personally done much research and written the majority of the article and in doing so I have searched for and found all key reference works on the bird that I am aware of. Key examples include;

1. Kerry Jayne-Wilson, "Flight of the Huia; Ecology and Conservation of New Zealand's frogs, reptiles, birds and mammals", Canterbury University Press, 2004

2.Higgins, Peter Jeffrey; Peter, John M; Cowling, SJ, eds (2006). Handbook of Australian, New Zealand and Antarctic Birds. Volume 7: Boatbill to Starlings, Part A: Boatbill to Larks. Melbourne: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0195539967.

3.Trevor H. Worthy and Richard N. Holdaway, "The Lost World of the Moa;Prehistoric life in New Zealand", Canterbury University Press, 2002

4.Morris, Rod; Smith, Hal (1995). Wild South: Saving New Zealand's Endangered Birds (2nd ed.). New Zealand: Random House.

5.Barrie, Heather; Robertson, Hugh (2005). The Field guide to the Birds of New Zealand (Revised Edition). Viking. ISBN 978-0143020400.

6.Szabo, Michael (October–December 1993). "Huia; The sacred Bird". New Zealand Geographic (20).

This is a New Zealand bird and thus, New Zealand will have a higher concentration of books on the subject because it's a local one. I live in Wellington and have done extensive research from here, both at libraries and also on the net. The coverage is good and in addition I think the article looks good visually and has some excellent illustrations. I can honestly say, from combing through key sources of information on the species above that this article is apporaching total saturation in terms of what is written there about the bird compared to what is known about the bird in general. It is very well referenced, plenty of inline citations in there, with over 34 seperate sources used. It's stable, reasonably well written and, in my opinion, of sufficient length to adequately cover the subject matter without being verbose. Kotare (talk) 10:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • The dead link is still there.
  • I haven't gone through the entire article yet, but I think some work needs to be done on the prose. The sentences seem a little long and rambling at times—they need to be more concise. I've made some minor changes and may try some more major rewritings. A few other things:
  • A minor point, but I doubt Heteralocha was taken directly from Greek; more likely, it was a newly coined word that combines two Greek words. And why are the other synonyms listed in the taxobox not mentioned in the text?
  • There are various other minor style problems, which I corrected in part of the article. Ucucha 14:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the Greek name problem I think. Kotare might need to address the synonym issue Kahuroa (talk) 05:13, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I have expanded the Taxonomy and etymology section to cover the Greek names and explain the origin of the synonyms. Please have a look at the section to see if it works okay. Kahuroa (talk) 08:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now replaced with link to Te Ara - the Encyclopedia of New Zealand, a reliable source. Kahuroa (talk) 22:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have replaced this site with NZ Post. Kahuroa (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a suggestion, but are all the external links really adding anything additional to the article? There seems to be quite a number, so culling may be in order if they are not adding much.
Fair call, I have pruned the external links now. Kahuroa (talk) 22:47, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further sources comments
    • Many of your references are to books, e.g. 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 etc., yet only the Higgins book is listed in the bibliography. These other books all have multiple citations, so why should they not be treated in the same way as the Higgins book?
Added remainder of books using cite book template to Bibliography Kahuroa (talk) 01:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Again, I see that these book references carry no page numbers (though Higgins does). Citations to whole books are difficult to verify unless the books are only a few pages long. Why can't page references be given?
At the risk of sounding facetious, books often have things called indexes, which one uses to find particular topics of interest in larger books. These are particularly common in non-fiction books. Presuming one has gone to the effort of locating a library that has the book, negotiated the Dewey Decimal system to find the book of interest and located said book from the shelves, I find it difficult to believe that locating the index would be a considerable difficulty. Moreover you seldom find book numbers in journal articles, which suggests that not putting them in is considered acceptable. Sabine's Sunbird talk 16:19, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You don't sound so much "faecitious" as pissed off, negative and brusque - you sure you're not having a bad day?; "These are particularly common in non-fiction books", there's no call for mockery! Your problem, not mine dude.I haven't had nearly the experience on wikipedia that you have and this is why I didn't do the page number thing initially - because much of that research was done 2 years ago when I wasn't even aware of the issue/ I was still learning. I wasn't sure how to do it this year but I have kept details so it should be easy to do. What's you point about the index though (?). I had actually wondered about the page numbers.. as Higgins does set a precedent. This was the one big thing I thought that, in all likelihood, still needed to be worked on - but I wasn't sure- so the feedback is good but you didn't present it in a very civil way. I'll work on it.Kotare (talk) 21:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest, Kotare, that you ignore the above unhelpful intervention and follows your own instincts on this issue. It should be obvious to anyone why a book index does not substitute for page numbers; the point is not even worth debating. Brianboulton (talk) 00:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Um, Kotare, the comment was directed at Brian, not you. It was an explanation of why you wouldn't need them, and why I assumed you might not have included them. I'm opposed to making them mandatory, because, as I've said, it strikes me as ludicrous that someone who has gone to the trouble of locating a book couldn't handle one and because they aren't required in journal articles, which I consider the gold standard of respectability. So apologies, but I stand by my point And Brian, it is neither obvious nor not worth debating. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not entirely sure what this is about, as I can't see page numbers for Higgins. I assume that what is being asked for is the shortened footnote system. If that's so, I'd be happy to work my way through the article and implement this, so that somebody else can just drop in the page numbers. Schwede66 08:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would be great, thanks Schwede - Kotare is trying to track down page numbers if I recall correctly 09:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Consistency required over formats of retrieval dates.
Think these are fixed now.Kahuroa (talk) 00:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ref 25 should be properly formatted as a citation.
Edited some of the references for minor problems - but I'm not sure which one you mean since the numbers have changed. Kahuroa (talk) 00:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Ah, lovely to see. One of the strangest and most lovely (former) New Zealand birds. Pity there are records of my great-grandfather's comments on its tastiness :(

  • Prose refinement in the lead would be good. eg.:
  • "The second major causal factor in the extinction of the Huia was the widespread and more or less total deforestation of the lowlands of the North Island by newly arrived European settlers that was occurring in this period to create pasture for agriculture." Both "more or less" and "that was occurring in this period" feel unnecessary.
  • In the two following sentences, it reads awkwardly to have "It is further thought very likely" and "has further been suggested" in successive sentences.
I've modified the lead. I will also note: are the inline citations in the lead necessary? The material appears well-discussed and well-cited in the body, so these could be removed. Iridia (talk) 06:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Inline citations in lead are now removed Kahuroa (talk) 09:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Another, less obvious aspect of the Huia's sexual dimorphism was the size difference between the sexes." Perhaps add 'minor size difference'? I found myself comparing numbers to get the right mental picture. added it.
  • Its range appears to have contracted following Māori settlement." in c. 1250 AD, should be mentioned. added it. Iridia (talk) 11:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Really no fossil remains from over Honeycomb Hill in the Kahurangi? Huh. I guess it didn't like the wet winters.
  • second para, Feeding and ecology: alter some of the 'It' to Huia; there's potential confusion between the Huia and Kaka there. rewrote it.
  • The mention of the call in Social behaviour first para should probably be under Voice. moved it.
Overall, very comprehensive and interesting. Iridia (talk) 05:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
RE: The second major causal factor in the extinction of the Huia was the widespread and more or less total deforestation of the lowlands of the North Island by newly arrived European settlers that was occurring in this period to create pasture for agriculture. I have made it: The second major cause of the extinction of the Huia was the widespread deforestation of the lowlands of the North Island by European settlers to create pasture for agriculture. --- oops I forgot to sign this a couple of days or so ago Kahuroa (talk) 09:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have tightened up the prose of the lead. Iridia (talk) 06:05, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going through and tightening up the prose section by section. Copyedit now complete.
  • It would be good to have a photo of a huhu grub. Anyone NZ-side got a rotting log they can give a kick? ;) Iridia (talk) 00:54, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One of those strange gaps in the Commons collection!! Thanks for your work on the prose too.Kahuroa (talk) 09:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No problem :) I've now finished going through and copyediting the prose. Iridia (talk) 12:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Would this help? Schwede66 08:24, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That does look helpful - I could make a version showing the last frame where the Kākā has the wee beastie in its beak Kahuroa (talk) 09:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Uploaded to commons as File:KakaFeedingOnHuhuGrub.jpg - will it work? Bit too blurry?? There are also a couple of good ones on Flickr and I have approached the authors to see if they will release them to Wikipedia. Fingers crossed Kahuroa (talk) 09:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have now sourced File:Huhu grubs.jpg from Flickr and added to the article. Thanks for the idea Iridia!! Kahuroa (talk) 19:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. I would say that the kahikatea fruit image could come back in that section as well, just put them one above the other. It looks a little out of place down in Extinction. Iridia (talk) 23:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will leave that to Kotare, but you are probably right Kahuroa (talk) 09:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done now Kahuroa (talk) 20:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced with a stamp image from 1898 - I think there are no copyright issues with that Kahuroa (talk) 05:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • prose is a bit lax, I've listed a few examples below, but could do with a careful copyedit. Examople two, well documented factors. Why the comma?
  • It was considered a specialist predator seems quite a list of prey for a specialist. How much of its diet was the nocturnal larvae?
I have adjusted the wording of that section according to Hanzab source and added sentence from same source about main foraging behaviour. It's probably unknown how much of its diet was the nocturnal larvae: Hanzab 7a:1015 says under Food: "No detailed studies". I also took out a sentence about Kaka eating insect larvae - seemed a bit superfluous and intrusive here. Kahuroa (talk) 18:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Coraciacarus muellermotzfeldi was described from dried corpses found in the feathers of a Huia skin held by a European museum... it is thought that it might be the result of horizontal transfer from one of the two native, migratory species of Cuckoo Why can't the old skin have been contaminated by the louse in its years in storage?
  • The Huia is one of New Zealand's best known extinct birds[8] on account of this feature — I know what you mean, but there are lots of words since the bill was mentioned last
  • Māori What's the justification for using the Maori, rather than the English, spelling (there's no macron in English)? This is en-wiki, so standard English spelling should be used. Welsh is in a similar position to Maori, an old indigenous language displaced by English. The en-wiki article is at welsh language, not Cymraeg. The list of birds of Wales has Red Kite, not barcud coch. It's difficult to see why Maori vocabulary and spelling should be given precedence on en-wiki, whilst other indigenous languages like Welsh, Breton and Basque have their articles written in standard English
  • ''literally translates there's not much scope for a loose translation when there's only one word, I'd lose the literally
removed (I think) Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Broadleaf-Podocarp I don't understand. Should this be broadleaf Podocarp
No - broadleaf = angiosperm (usually deciduous in England), and podocarp = podocarpus. Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure it shouldn't be a link to this instead? Not sure a broad 'angiosperm' is useful here...there doesn't seem to be a proper article on NZ broadleaf-podocarp forest. Iridia (talk) 11:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. that is indeed a better link and duly linked to. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • mataī, Rimu, Kahikatea, Northern Rātā, Maire, Hinau, Totara, Rewarewa, Mahoe, and Taraire Some at least of these have English names, eg Matai is Black Pine, and all have a binomial. I am at a loss to understand why you have used the least accessible, non-English and non-binomial names for these plants, and have spelt them using non-English diacritics.
I am in the process of bringing out the scientific names - I will blue up redlinks soon Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • A note since the NZ-resident authors may be a little occupied just now: use of the macron is standard modern NZ English and is used on NZ Wikipedia articles - this discussion has been had frequently in the past. The plant names used are the most common ones in use in NZ English, which contains many words that non-NZ English users might consider unfamiliar (for example, the Māori names are in use for most plants; I haven't heard anyone call mataī "black pine" except in books from the 1950s). Iridia (talk) 12:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re the spelling of Māori and Māori words, if I might interject here, in New Zealand articles the macron is standard - are you suggesting we change hundreds of articles? And re the names of trees, in New Zealand English, the Māori names are nowadays used much more than the so-called English versions which began dying out in the early 20th century, reflecting a strong trend in New Zealand English towards using Māori names for native plants and animals. No one - at least no one I know - calls Mataī "Black Pine" anymore - I find nothing unusual here in using Māori names for trees - it merely reflects for the most part the usage of the sources, scientific, botanical and otherwise, in New Zealand botanic sources. New Zealand English is quite heavily influenced by Māori, something perhaps not appreciated elsewhere, and more to the point the use of macrons is an accepted policy of the New Zealand Wikiproject and has been thrashed out there long ago. Kahuroa (talk) 09:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree, I have never heard anyone call Matai "Black Pine" and the species comes up in conversation quite a lot because it was used so widely for flooring in colonial times, I talked about it with a carpenter I was working with yesterday. Apart from anything else, you'll find that a lot of maori words sound better than their english equivalents too, which is partly why some of these english equivalents never caught on.Kotare (talk) 11:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what's happened to keep Kotare from editing, but I have made a couple of changes in the meantime. The other points raised about the prose style seem valid and I may be able to look at those as well, but Kotare is the one for some of content related points Kahuroa (talk) 05:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, life has been a bit complex for me lately but I'm back now. Let's do this!Kotare (talk) 11:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok guys, what I am going to start working on now is going through all those books I grabbed and putting in page numbers so that the references section is consistent, I put in most of that info from these sources, so it will be easier for me to rectify the problem. I will need a few days to work on it but it should be fairly straightforward. Kotare (talk) 11:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (moral or otherwise) as WP:Birds member and part time contributor to this article over the years, it's as comprehensive as it can possibly be and I gave it a going-over prose-wise. Some other folks might see some prose issues here and there but I see no deal-breakers outstanding. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I am happy to accept the assurance that the macron version of Maori is standard NZ English, and therefore conforms with en-wiki guidelines. the addition of binomials (which is where the articles actually reside) makes the list of trees less parochial, and the minor points have been addressed Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:25, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like Casliber I also Support (moral or otherwise) as WP:Birds member and part-time contributor to this article over the years. I think there are only a couple of points to be addressed: page numbers for book sources and also the question about the feather louse. I understand Kotare is trying to resolve both of these, and that might take a few days yet. Kahuroa (talk) 09:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  • "Australian ornithologist John Gould"—our article on him calls him English
Maybe easier to just drop both words "Australian ornithologist" then - as he also described some mammals. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:04, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know the relationships among the three NZ wattlebirds (i.e., which two are most closely related)?
Added molecular study which is partly inconclusive. There is a morphological suggestion Kokako is most divergent and ill hunt ref. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hanzab 7a p963 might be what you need Cas... some suggestion of cranial feature differences in Kokako. Also that Oliver combined Huia and Saddleback in Philesturnidae but Kokako in Callaeadidae etc. I can't get into editing at the moment, maybe tonight Kahuroa (talk) 23:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On a closer read of Hanzab 7A's section on the Callaeadidae, I think with Casliber's addition about the inconclusive molecular study, there is nothing useful I can add. Hanzab doesn't commit itself on the internal relationships, so I think we are waiting until someone comes up with another molecular study that produces a clearer result Kahuroa (talk) 01:46, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The quote from Buller in "Extinction" lacks a source.
  • "a flock of 100–150 birds was reported at the summit of the Akatarawa-Waikane track in 1905; they were still "fairly plentiful" in the upper reaches of the Rangitikei River in 1906 – and yet, the last confirmed sighting came just one year later."—this piece should be cited, especially as it has a direct quotation. Fixed - using HANZAB Huia section photocopy I have on me at my desk atm. Kotare (talk) 07:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes Szabo (1993) (cited many times, currently ref. 17) a high-quality reliable source?

Ucucha 18:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick answer since Kotare is the one who added the references from Szabo, but New Zealand Geographic magazine is a high-quality source in my humble opinion - they are backed by the New Zealand Geographic Trust and support researchers etc. Kahuroa (talk) 04:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The New Zealand Geographic is a pretty solid magazine in terms of reliability and respectability. To be fair though, I think wikipedians in New Zealand are better placed to judge how scholarly this source is - say there was an article on a japanese bird species that used the a "Japan Geographic" (I'm just making up an example) article as a ref. Who are people in the US or NZ to say "it's not a very scholarly source"? - we would probably have never heard of it; the locals know the publication. Just because it's a magazine doesn't mean it's not scholarly - the author is an expert in conservation biology. Do you want me to get in touch with Michael Szabo? Because he used to be the editor for Forest and Bird magazine, so I can track him down through them. I dunno..what's going to qualify as a satisfactory response? Talking to the author seems fairly objective..Kotare (talk) 07:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
NZ Geog is robust and reliable but not scholarly and not suitable as a ref for WP articles. The many refs to the NZ Geog article should be able to found in better publications. The NZ Geog article is a good candidate for the Further reading section. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 11:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it's not written for a scholarly audience. But it is generally reliable, and I don't see a problem with using it as a source for Wikipedia articles. It is certainly better than many newspaper articles. Recent articles in refereed journals would generally be better again, if they can be found. --Avenue (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Kahuroa and Avenue that NZ Geographic is a reliable source and quite suitable as a source for this article. Szabo's background with Forest & Bird gives him extra authority on top of the magazine's.-gadfium 20:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At FAC, the criterion refers to "high quality reliable sources", not just reliable sources, so we need to bear that in mind when assessing the suitability of material. Obviously locals will have local knowledge about sources, but the sorts of things involved in establishing high quality are to some extent universal. They are things like having a good reputation as a publishing house (in the case of books and magazines), having editorial boards, refereeing or peer review processes for content, being respected industry publications evidenced by being cited amongst peers, in other source etc. There's a wide range of such factors to consider. Another factor is the reputation of the author. Gadfium indicates that this author has a background in Forest & Bird, which appears to be an environmental conservation organisation (New Zealand's most significant and oldest, I think). It also appears to be the name of a journal that they publish, but as far as I can tell, it isn't peer reviewed either. In all, the magazine New Zealand Geographic would appear to meet WP:RS, but I'm not sure about "high quality" RS. As an author, Michael Szabo might have a stronger claim to being an author with a sufficient reputation to allow us to consider his piece high quality. I'm going to AGF with gadfium and say that, for me, this article qualifies, particularly now that other referees sources have been used to cover claims that were initially only supported with the Szabo ref. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. My only concern is that last one raised by Ucucha: whether Szabo meets the standard of being a high quality reliable source. I would like to see either a satisfactory response to this query or the swapping out of that reference where possible, replacing it with a more scholarly source that covers the same content. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

:::::::I think there would be any doubt among NZers that NZ Geographic is a high quality reliable source. Not sure how we prove that to you. Are there any particular references where you perhaps think a source like Hanzab, say, is needed as corroboration for Szabo? I mean, is there anything contentious or out of the ordinary that we have relied on Szabo for? Kahuroa (talk) 09:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given Alan Liefting's comments above it looks like we have relied a bit too much on Szabo and the NZ Geo. I will take a look at the refs and see what can be replaced from Hanzab and the like. I may not have time to do much before the weekend but I don't see any major problems in sorting it out. Kahuroa (talk) 11:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree; I have looked through all the places we've cited Szabo's article and I don't see them as necessarily problematic. In many cases it is not the only source given. The main topic where we seem to rely heavily on it alone is for Maori practices regarding the Huia. That's not my area of expertise at all, and I don't have a good feeling for Szabo's reliability versus other sources such as Best. --Avenue (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Avenue. Looks like the consensus is going towards NZGeo being okay. I will go through the refs but will hold off on wholesale removal until the reviewers who raised the query get back to us. I will have a look at the Maori practices, there may be other sources Kahuroa (talk) 22:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have gone through and reduced the dependence on Szabo considerably by finding HANZAB equivalents to back up or occasionally replace many of the Szabo refs. There are some relating to social/legal practices of the time and to Maori practices, but I don't think there is much if anything left about the bird itself that is Szabo-only. There are a couple where Szabo is used as a source to describe Buller's activities, which seems a bit indirect. All those can also be looked at if the reviewers think we should. Kahuroa (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, I think that helps. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image issues:

  • File:Deforestation NZ Levin early 20th Century.jpg: 100-year-old photographs could still be copyrighted. If a photographer took a photograph in 1907 and only published it in the US in 1925 while following all copyright procedures, that photo is copyrighted to him or her until 2021 (1925 + 95 + 1). New Zealand abides by the 70-year 50-year pma rule and if the photographer who took the photo in 1907 lived till 1960, his works are copyrighted in New Zealand until 2011 (1960 + 50 + 1). On what basis are these photos "Out of Copyright worldwide"? Removed from article.
  • Jappalang can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the first step in the case of these photos is to establish whether a photographer is named anywhere (such as the source document). If the photographer cannot be identified, it is an anonymous work, and under New Zealand copyright law is out of copyright (being pre-1960). If the photographer can be identified, then the question is: did the photographer die before 1960 or not? But I'm sure Jappalang or Elcobbola will correct me if I've misunderstood those first steps. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, I have removed this from the article - not worth arguing about at length, Huia can stand to go without it. Kahuroa (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Heteralocha acutirostris distribution.png: www.aquarius.geomar.de does not seem to be an "online mapping website". It seems more like a German aquatic research institute. Where does it provide online mapping that are either appropriate for the purposes of Wikipedia and Commons (i.e. freely available for commercial and derivative purposes)? Acceptable base map used.
That site has changed and I can't find the original link which did provide an online mapping service appropriate for the purposes of Wikipedia and Commons (i.e. freely available for commercial and derivative purposes). No matter, I can just recreate have just recreated the file on a different base: File:New Zealand location map transparent.svg. Kahuroa (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:New Zealand location map transparent.svg is good. NordNordWest has prepared his maps well (created from data that cannot be copyrighted and properly sourced). Jappalang (talk) 22:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:TukukinoLindauer.jpg: Gottfried Lindauer died in 1926; the copyright of his works are managed by his heirs (if any) for 70 years thereafter. A photograph of this portrait was published in Maori Paintings in 1965; thus, I believe the publishers have the permission of Lindauer's heirs to do so. According to http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm (Works Published Abroad Before 1978), this derivative would be granted US copyright for 95 years after publication (1965 + 95 + 1) because it is not in New Zealand's public domain before 1996 (out of NZ copyright in 1926 + 70 + 1 = 1997). Error: File:TukukinoLindauer.jpg is public domain in NZ and US because it was in NZ public domain in 1977.
Are you suggesting that a two-dimensional photo published in 1965 prevents the use of all other copies of the original?? Kahuroa (talk) 10:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that is what Jappalang intended: I expect he meant that the representation of the painting that appears in that book is in copyright, though I'll let J confirm that. There may be a couple of different ways to resolve this. The work is owned and exhibited online by the Auckland Art Gallery here. I don't see any obvious reason why this image of the work, which is definitely published more recently than either 1978 or, for that matter, 1996, would be in copyright. Second, I don't know whether New Zealand has freedom of panorama, but if so, that may apply depending on the status of the work in the public collection (ie. whether it is on long-term display). Just some suggestions. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, I have removed this from the article - not worth arguing about at length, Huia can stand to go without it. It was painted over 130 years ago though Kahuroa (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have to apologise; I made a mistake assuming the duration of copyright in New Zealand was 70 years pma (based on the PD-old templates that were asserted). It is 50 years.[44] As such, it was in New Zealand public domain in 1977 and therefore in US as well. The article can safely reuse this painting.
Thanks for that, I will put the painting back in Kahuroa (talk) 23:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding my initial assertions. I believe the photograph constitutes publishing of the work concerned; hence, yes, that photograph of a work unpublished until 1965 established a copyright claim in the US (which viewed pre-1978 copyright as starting from publishing instead of death of author). Jappalang (talk) 22:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the case was that a two-dimensional (photo) of an artwork was not regarded as a new work for copyright purposes unless new content had been added in some way. Bu these things can get very complex, appreciate your help and comments Jappalang. Kahuroa (talk) 23:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PD-Art is a counter to copyright claims for photographs of a public domain painting. In this case, my belief is that the authorised publishing of a copyrighted painting (the copyright was still in force in 1965) in a book starts a US copyright claim. Quite a different matter in my opinion. Jappalang (talk) 01:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These issues should be addressed and resolved before any promotion to FA status. Jappalang (talk) 09:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images are okay. Jappalang (talk) 01:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:57, 16 September 2010 [45].

Alboin

Nominator(s): Aldux (talk) 15:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've decided to nominate this article because wikipedia lacks a FA on this period in Italy, so I wrote an article on this Germanic king that played an important role in Italian history, replacing in this way the old Britannica article. I was also motivated by the contrast existing between the paucity of primary sources on him and the interest towards him among scholars. I've put my hands on pretty much all solid sources available in English, and a good amount of those available in Italian, so I'd say it's pretty complete. In addition let me mention here for their contributions Junipers Liege and Hawkeye7 who gave me an important help in making the prose flow better.Aldux (talk) 15:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weak opposeComment: This is an interesting article about a period in history scarcely acknowledged in the UK. It is clearly the product of much reaserch, and looks like a genuine piece of scholarship, but it may have come to FAC a bit prematurely. It was lightly peer-reviewed in January, but I would like to have seen another PR before its nomination here, concentrating in detail on the prose which is, in some places, distinctly ropey. For instance, in the lead alone:-

  • Three of the four paragraphs begin with "Alboin" and the other with "He" (meaning Alboin). Some variation of phrasing is necessary. And paragraphs should not begin with pronouns
  • "In the first war the Gepids had the upper hand..." This war should be dated, rather than described as "the first"
  • "...to crush his enemies once and for all" is not encyclopedic prose. Perhaps "to defeat his enemies decisively".
  • "Feeling uneasy with the increasing power of his new neighbours, Alboin decided to leave Pannonia, and put together a large motley group of peoples to migrate to Italy, then held by the Byzantine Empire." This sentence clunks several times, and needs rewriting.
  • "The occasion appeared propitious..." What "occasion"?
  • "...passing the Julian Alps." Do you mean "crossing"? I'm not sure that you can "pass" the Alps.
  • "...without meeting opposition took in 569 Milan" Very weird word sequence. At the very least, "took Milan in 569", or better still, "and took Milan in 569 without meeting opposition".
  • "In these years, signs of disintegration and loss of control over the army started to manifest themselves." Who/what was disintegrating, who was losing control? Sentence needs rephrasing.
  • "put in action" → "put into action", and you should say who Helmegis was; don't force your readers to use links.
  • The lead ends inconclusively; it should have a more "rounded" ending, reflecting the article itself.

I have not read the rest of the article closely, but it is likely that the prose issues in the lead will recur in the main text. I also have problems with the maps:-

  • File:Kll.jpg needs to be made more informative, via its caption. As a minimum the three red areas must be identified.
  • I found File:Carphatianbasin gepidia.png almost impossible to read, let alone interpret. In this form, it only adds confusion to the article.

I am not sure whether the prose issues can be resolved in the course of this FAC; that might depend on the prompt appearance of a copyeditor. It's certainly an article that I would like to see improved to FA status so I hope you will keep working on it. Brianboulton (talk) 18:09, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've solved the issues with the maps. As for the prose, I'll try working on this tomorrow. Ciao, Aldux (talk) 02:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment Thanks to the priceless help of Malleus Fatuorum I believe the issues with the lead have been solved; the images also should be OK. The prose flows better after the lead according to Malleus, so I would invite you to either modify your judgement or revise now the main body of the article. Ciao, Aldux (talk) 16:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yet another comment The article has now been fully copyedited for the prose. Aldux (talk) 17:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, certainly the lead is much improved, and I have struck my weak oppose as a gesture of confidence. It may be a day or two before I can read the rest, but I will certainly do so. Brianboulton (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. Aldux asked me to help with the prose, which I've done with the lead, and which as he says I think now addresses the valid points Brianboulton raised. From my rather brief look through the rest of the article so far I don't believe that the lead was typical of the article's body, but there are still some prose issues there that need to be sorted out, which I'll raise with Aldux on the article's talk page. Malleus Fatuorum 18:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Landseer (like Rubens) has been dead long enough that simplying saying that he painted it, and what it is, plus a {{PD-art}} license tag, is all that's needed. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That belief is incorrect and does not reconcile with requirement two of WP:IUP or with WP:V. Whether an image has a source and whether an image is public domain are entirely different concepts. Эlcobbola talk 16:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've removed the first image; the map isn't very important to Alboin. As for the second image you objected to, I've removed it and replaced it with another one, which is sourced better. As for the third, I've repaired the broken link. Coming to the fourh, Landseer's picture, I've found a link. If somebody doubts of the authorship, this should be enough. Coming to the last image you've asked about, the map was sourced in the svg version but the author forgot to write down the sources on the gif map so I've put this in order. This should solve all issues with criterion 3, so I would invite elcobbola to revise his judgement.Aldux (talk) 02:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above issues are resolved, but File:SouthEastern Europe mid-6th century AD.png is now a problem. It is a derivative work. The base map was taken from Euratlas.com (the image is, literally, a sea of watermarks). That site does not indicate that its works may be freely licensed. Эlcobbola talk 16:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Thanks for adding new input; but while it isn't a big problem removing the map, I'm not completely sure I can agree with your evaluation. I've looked at the Euratlas map and it is quite far from being the same as the map on wiki: the current wiki map seems to be based on multiple sources, of which euratlas is just one, but please correct if I'm getting it wrong; after all, I'm not as savvy in the image rules as I are in other parts. Ciao, Aldux (talk) 23:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a derivative work (see USC 17 § 101). From perhaps a more intuitive angle, consider if the base image were a picture of Bart Simpson instead of a map. Adding transparent colored areas, labels, etc. on top of Bart wouldn't eliminate the copyright. So too is the case with this map. The original work of authorship (the map, the copyrightable aspect) is still entirely perceivable; the modifications may or may not generate a new copyright, but, if they do, that new copyright is an addition to, not a replacement of, the old one. Эlcobbola talk 14:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that issue has been solved now as it was deleted for the reason you indicated. There shouldn't be any more problems with the images now.Aldux (talk) 18:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes indeed. Issues resolved. Эlcobbola talk 14:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps this is unreasonable, but when we look at insular early Medieval featured articles, for example Mike Christie's Æthelberht of Kent or Offa of Mercia or Ine of Wessex, there is usually some discussion of the sources near the start. Here we get introduced to sources one at a time, and it's harder to get an answer to the question "how do we know what we know?". For example, I have no idea if Origo Gentis Langobardorum is a source that historians place the least reliance on and the article on it doesn't help me either. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment First of all, let me excuse myself for answering so late to the issues you've raised. I'm a bit skeptical of such an approach, as it goes against how featured ancient and medieval biographies are normally written with the exception of some of the insular ones. My reluctance also comes by the fact that it is a pretty rare thing for biographies, take for example the Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani that despite its monstruous size and painstakingly accurate and thorough bibliography for each entry does not contain an introduction on the sources. Let me add that the discussion on the sources is something that should be through the whole article, so to highlite the points where the disputes on the sources are especially important, like concerning the death of Alboin, one of the few points of Alboin's life where there are multiple sources. Passing to the example you've made, those sources that are treated with skepticism by scholars I made this emerge, like with Theophylact and and Gregory, by mentioning the criticism advanced, often posed the sources one against the other and mentioned repeatedly the scholars. For example, Goffart uses the Origo as a source to demolish Thophylact. But in general, keep in mind that the Origo is almost completely subsumed in Paul's work and if you saw the text I placed on the article from the work, its piece on Alboin is extremely brief. Another reason of reluctance is that this is only the first of a revamp of the articles on Lombard kings, and I don't want to impose myself a model that I don't feel comfortable with. Aldux (talk) 14:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:57, 16 September 2010 [46].

Paul E. Patton

Nominator(s): Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 15:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First governor of Kentucky to serve two consecutive terms since 1804. This is the second FA nomination for this article; the first closed with no consensus (a few comments but no !votes either way). Hoping for a more active nomination this time around. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 15:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • The method of formatting online references is inconvenient to the user, who has to look in two places to find the cited source. It would be easier if the link to the source was within the reference itself; thus ref 1 becomes "Kentucky Governor Paul E. Patton". National Governors Association. Retrieved 2010-02-03., ref 4 becomes "Paul E. Patton". Hall of Distinction. University of Kentucky College of Engineering. Retrieved 2010-02-03., and so on for the remaining online citations which are 6, 7, 9, 19, 22, 54, 70, 71, and 72. These can then be withdrawn from the bibliography.
  • Ref 51 is to a court case, but the information you give is cryptic. Use the "cite court" template in WP:Citation templates to give a more informative output.

Otherwise sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll meet you halfway on the linking issue. I've added the links in the footnotes, but I'd like to keep them in the bibliography just to give folks an idea of the breadth and types of sources used. Regarding the court case, I hope I have used the template correctly. I'm definitely out of my element with that. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 21:19, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: "In June 2003, Patton issued pardons to four men who were under investigation for violating campaign finance laws." From reading on, I suggest that "under investigation" is putting it too mildly; they had been indicted, and their indictments had been upheld by the state Supreme Court. So I'd reword accordingly. This looks to me like a decent article that has been unaccountably ignored during two successive FACs. I hope to post some more comments soon, so I hope delegates will give it a few more days here so that others can join in and we get some useful comments. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I think this has been tidied up now, but let me know if it needs to be tweaked further. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments: Here are some comments on the lead and the early sections. The prose could do with some freshening and I am also doing some copyedits:-

  • Lead: rather too long and overdetailed for a summary lead. Each of the paragraphs after the first could be trimmed; leave the detail for the main article. Thus I would write the second paragraph:-

After graduating from the University of Kentucky in 1959, Patton worked in the coal industry for the next twenty years, He sold most of his coal interests in the late 1970s when he entered politics, serving briefly in the cabinet of Governor John Y. Brown, Jr. and chairing the state Democratic Party. In 1981, he was elected judge/executive of Pike County. After an unsuccessful bid for lieutenant governor in 1987 he was elected in 1991, after which he served concurrently as secretary of economic development.
Tough for a verbose guy like me, but I've given it a shot. See what you think. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life
    • section name is a misnomer; it takes in 40 years of Patton's life including almost all his time as a coal owner. I would limit "Early life" to the first two paragraphs, and call the rest "Commercial career" or some such.
    • I am against naming children who are not themselves notable, and there is no justification whatever for naming the Johnson children.
  • Political career (introductory paras)
    • Second sentence - don't use "later" when it is possible to give a date.
      • I'm not sure there is a date to give. I returned this source to the library a while ago, and probably can't get it again until this weekend at the earliest. Still, I've reworded the sentence to avoid "later".
    • "Patton sold most of his coal interests in 1978." Give a reason, e.g. "In anticipation of his taking up a political career, Patton sold..." etc
      • Best I recall, it was because the coal boom was waning. I don't think the source directly connected it to his entry into politics.
        • Then put that in, if that's what the sources say. It's too stark to say he sold his coal interests without any explanation
    • You need to say who Terry McBrayer was, and the "primary" should be described as a "primary election".
      • Done.
    • I have carried out a general copyedit on the first part of this section.

I will work on the rest as time allows. Brianboulton (talk) 16:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your suggestions so far. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to let you know, with limited time available I am concentrating on copyediting & will support when this is complete. Now that the article has received decent attention from editors such as Giants, Tony1 and Finetooth, I'm pretty confident that anything of significance in the content will have been picked up. Finetooth is now supporting; perhaps the others will, too. Brianboulton (talk) 19:08, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support after copyedit. It's not perfect, but few FAs are; it is very comprehensive and tells its story well. Further improvements will be minor issues. I have left a hidden comment in the Lieutenant governor section. Brianboulton (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1

  • This will be a "support". But a few things need clearing up first:
  • Overlinking: "coal mining", "pardoning", "patronage"—these are dictionary terms. In contrast, the "economic prosperity" pipe goes to a nice, specific target. Why do we need to dilute the high-value links with such terms as indoor plumbing, electricity, and telephone? "Honorary"? Why "mechanical engineering" AND "BSc" linked? Oh, "garbage collection", hello? Can you go through and properly ration the links, so readers will be more likely to click on them? There's "state senator" for a second time. And "public campaign financing" for a second time.
    • This is often a problem for me, but after doing another run-through, it looks like it was particularly egregious here. Let me know if you find others that need to be de-linked.
  • Red link: it's no big deal, and not part of the criteria here, but you might some time start a stub for "Fallsberg" to turn those two reddies blue.
    • I should probably look at doing that. I may check with the folks at WP:KY's Eastern Mountain Coal Fields task force, since that isn't really "my neck of the woods".
  • Judge/Executive ... no caps, please, as in the first sentence below that title.
    • Done.
  • "Passage of his higher education reforms led to Patton chairing the Southern Regional Education Board from 1997 to 1998."—Where there's an "of" to the right put a "the" to the left (The passage of); it's a rule that mostly works. And there's an ungainly noun+-ing construction. Here, you might consider the old-fashioned option of "led to Patton's chairing of". I'm presuming that the strong causality is important to express here in the grammar. If not, just "After the passage of ..., Patton chaired the ...". It would be simpler. Tony (talk) 07:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done. Best I recall, the source indicates a strong causality.
Thank you for your comments. Let me know if you find something else that needs to be addressed. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional support – I looked at the lead and some sections of the article and concur with what has been said above: that this is some solid work. There were a few things I could nit-pick if I wanted to, but nothing that truly concerned me. I usually don't like to fully support an article if I haven't read all of it, but if Brian finishes his suggestions/copy-editing, this can be considered a full support. Even if I haven't read the whole thing, I trust that he and Tony aren't both wrong on the article as a whole. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate the support! Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to everyone for your comments. I was off-wiki for the long weekend, but I will do my dead-level best to address these today. To the closing admin, please give me at least today to do so. Thanks. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 13:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support by Finetooth Leaning toward support. I did some proofing and minor c/e, mostly adding nbsps per WP:NBSP, changing % to percent, and the like. I have a short list of other concerns, none of which is major.
Lead
"Presently, he is the president of Pikeville College in Pikeville, Kentucky, and serves as chairman of the Kentucky Council on Postsecondary Education." - Delete "presently" and specify "Since early 2010, he has been the president ... and since 2009 has served as the chairman of ..."?
Sounds good. Done.
Lieutenant governor
"Just days before the primary it was reported that Cowan's campaign had sent a fundraising letter to a firm that his office was investigating for criminal conduct regarding state contracts." - I had to read this more than once to see what it meant. Would it be more clear to say, "Just days before the primary, it was reported that Cowan's campaign had sought funds from a company that his attorney-general office was investigating for criminal conduct."
Done.
Gubernatorial election in 1995
"He also used the Republican Congress' budget cuts to programs affecting the elderly against Forgy." - Seems a bit awkward. Suggestion: "To further undermine Forgy, Patton reminded voters of the budget cuts by Congressional Republicans to programs affecting the elderly." Or something like that.
Done.
Education reform
"that would allow students in smaller high schools in Kentucky to have access to courses like foreign languages that were only offered at larger high schools" - Since "foreign languages" aren't literally "courses", maybe "to have access to courses in foreign languages and other subjects offered only at larger high schools" would be better.
Done.
References
The citations to web sites should include author, publication date, and access date, as well as title, publisher, and url, if all of those are known or can be found. I see that this information appears in the Bibliography, but I agree with Brianboulton that splitting the details is awkward. I would suggest pulling the web sources out of the Bibliography and simply adding the missing details to the Reference section entries.
Finetooth (talk) 20:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still kinda tied to keeping the web sources together with the others in the Bibliography, but I could add that information in the References section as well if you really think it is necessary.
Thanks for your review. Your suggestions materially improved the prose, I believe. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcome. I've struck all but the "References" comment, and I'm changing to Support. The article is solid, and the reference question is not a show-stopper. You might seek a third opinion about the reference arrangement and then go with the flow, if one can be discerned. Finetooth (talk) 19:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support when the suggestions below are addressed. Overall, a good article. Images look fine to me.

  • lead has repetition. We're told twice (first and last paragraphs), that he was on Postsecondary Ed council and was president of Pikeville College.
    • Fixed.
  • The proudest achievement of his first term was overhauling higher education - this needs a citation in the lead; it's a judgement rather than a dry fact and as such needs to be properly cited.
    • I remember reading that he said he was most proud of that achievement, but I can't remember which source it was, as that was months ago. I've tried to reword to make it less POV without a cite.
  • Do we know approximately when his father was hired by a railroad? We're told he moved often, and then that he stayed in one place to go to school, so I think a date would help put that in better context.
    • Again, it's been a while, but I don't remember any source giving a date. Since I generally include them when they are available, I doubt it was given.
  • I'm confused by this -> "established a work program for welfare mothers in day care centers" - is the program to let welfare mothers work in day cares? Is it to have day cares take care of children for a lesser charge so the mothers can work? This might need to be reworded
    • I'm not exactly sure what it means either; it's a direct quote from the NGA web site, and none of the other sources provide clarification on the matter.
  • At first, like Finetooth, I was taken aback by the website referencing. Once I figured out what you were doing, I was a little calmer. It's more normal (in my experience), to see full references in the references area, and then full book cites in the bibliography/sources area. I don't consider this a showstopper, though, because the article is internally consistent.

Karanacs (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I've always thought WP's reference formatting standards needed some tightening, and things like this are why.
Thanks for the review. Hope you will be able to support now. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, if only because Tony's review of the overlinking gave me my biggest laugh of the week: 'Oh, "garbage collection", hello?' Thanks to ACdixon and others for the necessary tweaks. Looks comprehensive and well-written. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  • I suggest you use the inflation functions to convert costs to present-day dollars($191,252 to $49,000, $5 million renovation etc.). If you'd like help doing that, I can show you how.
    • Didn't even know there was such a thing. I wouldn't have any idea how/when to use them. Any help you could provide would be appreciated.
  • However, he won both races by much smaller margins than in 1981 - I think it would be interesting to know what the margins were.
    • Added.
  • to companies who located in economically depressed rural counties - should that be " to companies that located in economically depressed rural counties"?
    • Changed.
  • Other candidates included Steve Collins, son of former governor Martha Layne Collins, and former Speaker of the Kentucky House of Representatives Bobby H. Richardson. - I think this sentence should be moved to the third in the paragraph, no the last.
    • Done.
  • Two minor candidates split the remaining 33,344 votes. - "minor" is a bit pejorative, isn't it? I would use "other".
    • Changed.
  • sent many of their legislators, including House Speaker Don Blandford, to prison on charges of political corruption. - I think they would be sent to prison because they were convicted of political corruption, rather than just being charged with it.
    • Yeah, lazy wording on my part. Changed.

Overall, a well-written, well-sourced article. Jayjg (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the suggestions and support. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:47, 15 September 2010 [47].

Princess Charlotte of Wales

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets the criteria. Princess Charlotte. One of the tragic episodes of British history. Second in line to the throne and almost certainly Queen of England had she lived. After a rather dramatic adolescence in which her father, the Prince Regent (later George IV) tried to force her into a marriage with a Dutch prince, she married for love, to the impoverished Prince Leopold of Saxe-Gotha-Saalfeld. After a year and a half of happy marriage, she did not live happily ever after, but died after giving birth to a stillborn son, setting off a wave of mourning in Britain comparable only to the death of Princess Diana. Not only that, her death left King George III with no legitimate grandchildren, and set off a mad rush to the altar by her bachelor uncles, which eventually resulted in the birth and succession of Queen Victoria. In lieu of PR, I asked Dr.Kiernan, one of our best when it comes to British Royalty, to review it. It's a rather unusual story, do enjoy it.Wehwalt (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I couldn't figure out where that was.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did fix it, it seems. Always those navboxes. Ucucha 22:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—2c good. Plowden, p. 187 "and the P.R. should have been an authority on the subject" ought to incorporate the quote in the main body, or indicate that this is an extension of the quote. 1c: can you assure us you've exhausted the most appropriate literature? (Preliminary searching reveals you're exhausted scholarly works, but Museum of London appears to have done a curated catalogue of her dress?) Fifelfoo (talk) 01:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think so. I poked around looking for good angles on what is very much a twice-told tale, didn't come up with anything earthshattering. This is a purely historical article, there is no question of her leaving any sort of a legacy. Very little requiring interpretation. All the book sources told the story very similarly. I don't think her dress should be in a survey article :)--Wehwalt (talk) 01:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ashamed to say I didn't know who she was when I read the article title.

  • "selected the Brunswick Princess sight unseen" Rephrase?
I'm uncertain as to whether your objection is to "Brunswick Princess" or "sight unseen". On the first point, I am trying to disambiguate between two German princesses, and also trying to avoid using Caroline's name twice in one sentence. I'd like to keep "Brunswick Princess". I care less about "sight unseen", although it is a quick and shorthand method of making it clear that the two had not met.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it was "sight unseen" I wasn't sure about. J Milburn (talk) 11:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to fetch her from Brunswick to Britain" Can you fetch to somewhere?
  • "had sex only three times, and that the Princess had commented on how large his penis was" If ever I'd read some evidence that celebrities were the new royalty...
Georgian England was rather bawdy by the standards of Victorian England.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Forty years later, Keppel, by then Earl of Albemarle would" Comma after "Albemarle"?
  • "George's parents's" Now, that's not right :P
Rephrased to avoid the awkwardness and ambiguity.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Whig leader, the Earl Grey." Spell out full name?
  • "she was to sit in back of the box" Rephrase?
  • In the William of Orange picture's caption, could we perhaps have a link?
  • "and abused both her and Gloucester" What I read here isn't what you meant, let's put it that way.
  • Who's the other woman on the picture of the meeting? Who's the little gnome poking his head around the door?
  • "interested in Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia, and" Not at all keen on links to the German Wikipedia. If we don't have an article, have a redlink. Redlinks are not a bad thing.
I'm not sure I agree. At least we are directing the reader to some information. There are a lot of Prince Friedriches from this era. In fact, this one was often referred to as "Prince August", no doubt to disambiguate him from the others. I think it is a handy way of pinning down who we are talking about, and google translate does wonders.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with J Milburn; a red link would be better than a link to other Wikipedia. We shouldn't assume that a reader understands German; Polish Wikipedia and Russian Wikipedia have articles that are only insignificantly shorter than German Wikipedia's. There is surely a great number of readers who would prefer Polish or Russian to German. Anyway, I'll attempt to translate the article from those Wikipedias and will also try to find English language sources. I'd be honoured to do anything that would somehow improve this fabulous article. Surtsicna (talk) 14:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks on both counts, yes if you could start at least a stub, I'll link there in preference and the reader can look for more information on the other languages list if he desires. Just let me know the title and I'll switch over to the link, or do it yourself if you like. Thanks for the praise, but it isn't me, it is Charlotte, her personality just shines through from the quotes.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:20, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done - Prince Frederick William of Prussia. Surtsicna (talk) 16:02, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a condition sure to be unacceptable to the Prince Regent" The Prince Regent being her father? Presumably, Orange opposed because he did not want to offend Charlotte's father? Just trying to follow the article.
Yes, if I just call him "George" all the time, a reviewer will object, so I mix it up with his title, and it has been mentioned that George is now Prince Regent.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "including the Duke of York" Who's this precisely? I assume it's already been mentioned, but there are so many people.
  • "Tory Prime Minister, Lord Liverpool, in" Again, full name?
  • "She had asked to go to fashionable Brighton, but the Prince Regent refused, sending her instead to Weymouth." That's an absolutely brilliant line.
  • "a friend" Who? A servant?
  • "a Russian princess" Again, name?
I figured naming her would slow down the flow of text, thus the pipe. I will put the name in, but personally I find that six-barrel names slow down text, especially when people are known by shorter names (i.e., Earl Grey or Lord Liverpool). However, I will put them in and get your views as to which way is better.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The engraving of the wedding doesn't really fit where you placed it. Perhaps a nice portrait of Leopold? Alternatively, perhaps shuft it down and to the left?
  • "and (an authority in such things) told" What does that mean? It comes across as a little sarcastic...
As both you and Fifelfoo comment on this, plainly this is a problem and I'll delete it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "husband, "Doucement"." Lose the comma?
  • "According to Plowden," Sorry, who's he?
Plowden and her book are mentioned earlier. I added "in her book" to remind the reader that she is a Charlotte biographer.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:27, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "bleeding and breathing with difficulty" Bleeding with difficulty, or just plain bleeding?
  • "of ribbons and other fancy goods petitioned the government to shorten the period of mourning, fearing they would otherwise go bankrupt." Howso?
  • "Although the Duke did not live to see it" The Duke being Victoria's father?
  • Sorry- on the family tree, what does "(=16)" and such mean?
I did not add that, and they are common to many royalty articles, including FAs, see Ernest Augustus I of Hanover. The numbers, I believe, are so that when 2 or more are the same in these inbred families, it can simply say Martin, Prince of Uggs-on-Rhein (same as 22).--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reflist should probably be placed into two/three columns.

A stunning read, a fascinating (and highly important) topic and well researched. Once these few minor points are resolved, I'd be happy to support. J Milburn (talk) 10:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Many thinks for the praise and the review. If I didn't address it above, it means I just implemented it. Let me know what you think, and feel free to reply to my comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:27, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. J Milburn (talk) 11:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support after comments below resolved ok. Johnbod (talk) 20:57, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Comments by Johnbod. Generally looks good, but:[reply]
  • Pantalettes needs a link, but I've lost the place now - someone disapproved of her wearing them (visibly). Ok, found & done.
  • I don't know about these full links for aristocrats - I don't think this is normally done when they are rerasonably well known.
  • "the faith" link should go to Church of England not Anglicanism.
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Already linked both in infobox and first line of "Girlhood". Since there is no material in Hackney carriage which deals with the horse drawn sort, I see no point to a link.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Various journalese dropped "the"s, for example in the caption to "the Sir Thomas Lawrence painting ...".
I have restored an article to that caption; I will look for others.
  • Caption:Funeral "of", not "for", I think, or just use possessive.

More later. Johnbod (talk) 15:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where not commented on, changes made. Thanks for your comments, always good to hear from you.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (More Johnbod) "Prince George left most of Charlotte's care to governesses and servants, but only allowed her limited contact with Princess Caroline,.." - why "but"? More an "and".
  • "Charlotte soon broke off the match" sounds unidiomatic - it is engagements that are normally broken off.
  • "The attempted marriage had been ruled invalid as no attempt had been made to obtain consent from the King, George III, the Prince's father, in violation of the Royal Marriages Act 1772. " Too many commas, & GIII linked in previous section. At least one out of "the King, George III, the Prince's father" should go, maybe two.
  • "Before the wedding on 8 April 1795, George sent his brother William, Duke of Clarence (later William IV), to tell Mrs. Fitzherbert that she was the only woman he would ever love, then appeared for the ceremony, drunk." "appeared for" and ", drunk" are awkward: maybe: "Before the wedding on 8 April 1795, George sent his brother William, Duke of Clarence (later William IV), to tell Mrs. Fitzherbert that she was the only woman he would ever love, and was drunk at the ceremony."
I think the sharp ending of ", drunk" is a very effective means of ending that paragraph, which shows things off well. I'm happy to change "appeared for" though, or to discuss other phrasings.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the decisions made for Charlotte's care." "about" or "over" better than "for", I think.
  • "The King, who was fond of Caroline, had refused to see her during the investigation; with the negative result, he again received her" - jerky, maybe: "The King, who was fond of Caroline, had refused to see her during the investigation, but began to receive again after the negative result."
  • "Her father was proud of her riding skill" - "horsemanship" is I think gender-neutral.
  • "The diplomats had no desire to see the two thrones united,2 - "politicians" - one might mention William and Mary.
That was probably in their minds, but the sources don't say so, so there's not much I can do about that one.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while Charlotte summoned Whig officials" - "officials" sounds odd. Politicians, ministers, courtiers even.
Politicians is best, the Whigs were not in power and had no "officials", now that I think about it.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the wedding participants had great difficulties in travel." "in travel" awkward.
  • "the couple was married." - certainly should be "were", imo. There may be an engvar difference here.
  • "when her medical team began care in August 1817" - "began care" may be the clinical term, but sounds odd.
  • One might mention that the uncle-dukes had not been allowed to marry before, not even to their mistresses.
They were perfectly allowed to marry, as long as the brides were "suitable", i.e. Protestant princesses. The Duke of York was married by then, and the Duke of Cumberland married in 1815. However, the mistresses were not suitable. I think that this is a bit much to put in Charlotte's article and if it is OK, I'd rather skip it.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know that this was the Leopold who later became King of the Belgians, in which guise he is far better known, should be a last line plot twist. Stockmar's continuing, slightly sinister, role as advisor to Leopold and Victoria & Albert probably rates a short phrase at the end.
I have inserted a parenthetical about Stockmar's later role when I first mention him. I think the article ends well on the mention of Albert, who of course becomes a surrogate Leopold to Victoria's Charlotte. It's a nice note to end on. Despite the darkness after Charlotte's death, the world has renewed itself.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have made various changes myself, as you may have seen. But please raise any you don't like.

Generally a very nice read, & interesting story, completely new to me like, I expect, most people. Johnbod (talk) 01:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm familiar with the story, but I've worked before in the late Hanoverian period. Some of the details were suprising to me when I got into the story. Anyhoo, I've done all that stuff, except where I have commented otherwise. Thanks for the thorough review. I've written articles in American, Canadian, English, and Australian English, but sometimes the fine points trip me up.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support. I am indifferent as to whether it and the parenthetical stay or go. But it was asked for by another reviewer, and it is not unreasonable.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Previously, all I knew about Princess Charlotte I'd learned from Lytton Strachey's Queen Victoria, an excellent, racy book but perhaps not quite scholarly enough to be used as a source here. The article fills the story out nicely, and I can't offhand see any areas in need of improvement. Well done indeed. Brianboulton (talk) 15:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strachey can only be used as an historiographical source; it was written before the publication of Victoria's diaries and letters and so is very out-of-date. Similarly, anything written about Charlotte before 1949 (the publication of her letters) must be considered from an historiographical perspective. The modern biographies are much better informed than anything written before the war, because since then a whole range of source material (both in British and Continental archives) has become available. DrKiernan (talk) 17:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I used nothing older than 1949; I did check old bios of Charlotte that are now PD to confirm a couple of quotes and search for some of the images which grace this article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Has this or [48] which discuss her cause of death. Also this or this or this?
  • this is by sutton, which is usually a pretty decent publisher on history subjects. And has this been consulted on her relationship with her father? Actually have any biographies of her father been consulted? Likewise any biographies of her husband?
  • I'm not saying these necessarily WILL have anything, but several of the abstracts of the journal articles imply that there is some question about what exactly caused her death (beyond just "childbirth") so that may need to be covered a bit. I would also expect a bit of information from both her father and her husband's biographies to round out the biographies of the subject herself.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Charlotte's postmortem was inconclusive, as was mentioned in the article. Since then, people have been merrily theorizing that anything from the flu to porphyria may have contributed to her death. I did not feel it necessary to go into that depth. Regarding the Van der Kiste book, no, I did not read that, but I read his book, George III's Children and did not choose to draw from it (I have found him to be sloppy on details). I will review the other books and see if there is anything that can be usefully added. Charlotte's life is a twice-told tale, and the four bios I read do not vary a great deal on how they tell the story. Thank you for the comments, I will either comment back or add stuff to the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a couple of bits from Smith. Many thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave these out for other reviewers to see and consider (although I'm satisfied). Ealdgyth - Talk 19:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:47, 15 September 2010 [49].

Flame Robin

Nominator(s): Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is as comprehensive as I can make it using material which would be of interest to the general reader. Ummm...what else can I say...it's pretty short and easy to read and I will promise to fix problems raised pronto. So have at it. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Think I got 'em all... Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Still some citation inconsistencies (refs as of this version):
    • refs. 2, 5, 6, and some others have comma before "p."; 9 and some others don't.
commas added Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Don't the citations to "Higgins" and to "Higgins et al." refer to the same work?
yup. fixed/aligned. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Initials (e.g., ref. 28) are formatted differently in the notes than for HANZAB under "Cited texts".
d'oh! missed that one. Fixed now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • ref. 8 repeats the format and shouldn't abbreviate the journal.
Fixed Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • ref. 43 also shouldn't abbreviate the journal.
Fixed Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • refs. 7 and 31 abbreviate the state name in the place of publication; ref. 17 doesn't.
unabbreviated Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Can't ref. 3 give a more precise place of publication than "United Kingdom"?
d'oh! missed that one. Fixed now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now for some more substantial comments:

  • The lead has room for more information on behavior.
embellished a little. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:07, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • petro- is not a word (is the actual form petros? I'm not sure).
petros it is, and fixed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Australian robins were also placed in the whistler family"—why the "also"?
because they'd been first placed in the Old World flycatcher family Muscicapidae. See preceding para. The two sentences are possibly a bit far apart for the "also"? Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think so; it sounds more like the "also" has something to do with the American or European robins. Perhaps it's better to take the "robin" discussion out of the taxonomic history, and place it with the paragraph about common names. Ucucha 14:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have moved to align all discussion of family placement together Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The colour alone is not a reliable guide to determine sex"—don't you mean "to determine the species"?
oops. yes! fixed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is more common in uplands in Victoria."—more common than where?
the lowlands of victoria. Seems to be confusing so I'll reword. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have switched to " In Victoria, it is more common in uplands." Question is, do you think it needs (than low-lying regions or lowlands) at the end? Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think so. Ucucha 14:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay - "than lower altitudes" added. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is unclear whether Tasmanian birds cross Bass Strait to winter in Victoria."—the discussion on subspecies earlier in the article states positively that they do migrate, as does the first paragraph of "Behaviour".
Changed to Should say "what proportion of" Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although it is classified as Least Concern"—it's actually NT, as the article itself states.
Err, yes and no - the Australian Government has it as Least Concern, while Birdlife International has it as Near Threatened...Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given the "2000" part in that URL, perhaps we can just blame the "LC" on it being out of date. Also, I think the Red List is what we usually take our conservation status from, not the Australian government. Ucucha 14:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I rejigged the order to highlight current classification is Near Threatened, and emphasize that as most current. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Courting males also run to and fro in front of a female, in a crouch with wings and head lowered and hiding their breast feathers, again."—why the "again"?
No idea. I was fiddling with that bit for a while, must have been left in by mistake. removed Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I found a better one which is appropriately licenced at Flickr. Have uploaded and cropped it on commons. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it might have been this one. I will ask Gnangarra who made the map. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not that one, I've been making distribution maps since 2006, this one source uncertain now but from memory it was done off another distribution map from on en.Wikipedia that was PD, because I wasnt sure on how to create one I went looking for one to copy. I then sourced this one for making this one note I originally tagged this one as PD as well but then altered it to the cc-by-sa license up until now I've never compared the two though both look similar(as they should) as to which one was the base for this map I couldnt give a definative answer. As this is my third PC since 2006 the maps have been tranfered through at least a couple of storage devices to get here there's not much more I can offer from this end to follow the trail of which is which. Gnangarra 11:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ucucha 13:26, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cute bird, and a cool name.

  • Can't help but feel that the lead illustration (small and out of focus) should be replaced with the drawing (from a reliable source, and shows both males and females)
I am ambivalent about using drawings rather than photos, and I suspect others are not keen. I did a quick scour of appropriately licenced photos on flickr for that one as there is a question mark over the previous taxobox one (and I thought the previous one was a bit scruffy anyway). The best outcome would be for someone on flickr to change their licence (which they often do when asked nicely)....until Noodle Snacks pops up the road into the woods and takes a few more photos...(they are commoner near him than me :)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "bill and eyes" Small thin black eyes?
d'oh! forgot to change that - "has dark brown eyes and a small thin black bill" to align with body of text Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Classified by BirdLife International as Near Threatened," Not really feeling the italics
My take on it was emphasis as word-as-word as per MOS on italics. I do like italics though - I'll drop it if there is consensus to do so...I check what Visionholder, Ucucha and Sasata (and Jimfbleak and Sabine's Sunbird etc) do :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "later described in its current genus" Doesn't read that well... Perhaps something like "designated to"? Not sure.
rejigged to active tense to avoid another para beginning "The Flame Robin...." Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and Robin Redbreast." You specified earlier that this was inaccurate- perhaps make it clear here?
  • "than other robins"- what do you mean by this? You've already noted that it isn't related to what I'd call a "robin"
I am lapsing into Australian colloquy --> "than other members of the genus Petroica" Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Males sing rarely during this time, although they sing to defend their territories." Awkward
changed to "Males sing rarely during this time, although they do so to defend their territories" Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The description of the song is really cool- I can imagine just what it sounds like :)
  • "organization BirdLife International has regraded it" Why has?
because still current - perfect tense - i.e. they have done it and it remains so - I thought it is a nice way to incorporate extra meaning with few words Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The references would really look better in multiple columns- as most are so short, I'd be inclined to say three.
Ummm...ok. Someone often does them when I am buffing these things. Will do so Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm yet to read the behaviour section, I will do that another time. J Milburn (talk) 23:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, reading the behaviour section.

  • "including a breast-puffing display where it puffs" Again, why italics?
emphasis - words-as-words again, but I can drop it - not a hugely official term or anything. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Three or four dull white eggs tinted bluish, greyish or brownish and splotched with dark grey-brown measure 18 mm x 14 mm,[31] and are laid on consecutive days." Awkward- I think you need two sentences here
split
  • "most commonly of Eucalyptus viminalis around 4 m (13 ft) off the ground, and the latter in forks or on branches around 7 m (25 ft) above the ground, and more commonly in E. pauciflora." What? What's it common in, then?
rejigged -latter bit referring to Scarlet Robins Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:58, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of Scarlet Robins in area"
of Scarlet Robins in the area - tweaked Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:58, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "afterwards till day" until?
done Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:58, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Eastern Brown Snake" the Eastern Brown Snake, or Eastern Brown Snakes, surely?
I was writing with a Yorkshire accent placed a "the" at the beginning of the three predators mentioned Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:58, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, done. J Milburn (talk) 00:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good question - I am happy either way. My general take on those is to be somewhat sparing on the hyphen use, but if consensus is that it is a good idea then okay. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:47, 15 September 2010 [50].

FC Barcelona

Nominator(s): Sandman888 (talk) 19:00, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article, it has received some copyediting since last, and the issues brought up then has been dealt with. Sandman888 (talk) 19:00, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just one more before I support: Coach Fernando Daucik and Ladislao Kubala, regarded by many as the club's best player ever - weasel wording, and unsourced too. Oldelpaso (talk) 13:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Got it. Cheers, Sandman888 (talk) 14:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose - I've left notes on the talkpage after reviewing about half of the article, nothing major but lots of little things. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: All my issues handled in the previous PR. Only outstanding issue was the need for a good copyedit, which has since been adressed by Diaanna. There wasn't too much to say on the PR itself, so that's a good sign as well ;) Cheers, ResMar 20:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I think the article should provide more info regarding the fact that the Camp Nou stadium is the largest in Europe. We can add : it has a capacity of 98,787, making it the largest stadium in Europe. It can be added at the records and at the stadia section. We could also add a mention at the "Núñez years" explaining that La Masia was created in 1979, and that it has been praised as one of the best football academies in the world. Rest of the article is fine. --Jordiferrer (talk) 12:44, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – I was one of those who said this needed copy-editing last time, and I'm happy to see it was provided. Still some issues remaining, though:

  • Birth of FC Barcelona: Gamper's last name is unnecessarily repeated.
  • Rivera, Republic and Cold War: "These measures forced the club to change its name to Club de Futbol Barcelona and to the removal of the Catalan flag from its club shield." Should "to the removal of" be "to remove", or is there a word missing?
  • Space needed in "wonLa Liga" (1945).
  • Club de Futbol Barcelona: "he helped the club win the 1973–74 La Liga title for the first time since 1960." This risks being confusing since a given year's title can't be won in other years. I think something like "he helped the club win the La Liga title in 1973–74 for the first time since 1960" would be an improvement.
  • No need for multiple Bernabeu links in this section. Ronaldo is linked twice in a later section, so it goes further than this example.
  • Another space needed in "led tovan Gaal".
  • Exit Nunez, enter Laporta: "In the three years he were in charge". Shouldn't "were" be "was"?
  • "by beating last years Champions League winners...". "years" → "year's".
  • "and the Spanish Supercup trophy for a ninth time." Is this missing "won". Looking at the whole sentence, they couldn't have retained the cup that many times since this is their overall victory total, so this part doesn't make sense now.
  • Records: "Xavi, the player with most international caps, who as of...". Try ""Xavi, the player with the most international caps, as of...".
  • What's citing the first paragraph of Stadia.
  • "that one of the stones was inscribed the name of...". Is this missing a "with"?
  • UEFA should be spelled out in several references.Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Més que un club indeed — excellent stuff, no obvious problems now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tentative support only because nothing jumps out at me prose-wise. I found this article quite choppy and have done some smoothing out. I think another set of eyes wouldn't hurt but prose is okay now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:51, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:47, 15 September 2010 [52].

Japanese battleship Haruna

Nominator(s): Cam (Chat)(Prof) 05:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Haruna was - along with her sisters of the Kongo class battlecruisers - one of the workhorses of the Japanese battleships during WWII. She was everywhere - escorting carriers, bombarding airfields, deploying to counter American carrier raids, fighting escort carriers and destroyers - before she was sunk by air attack in the last days of the war.

This article has been in the works for quite a long time, with the first round of major changes occurring as far back as February 2009. The article passed its GAN in February 2009, its MilHist ACR in March 2009. The article has also undergone two extensive copyedits; the first by User:Bellhalla in April 2009, and the second by User:Dank over the last month. After a long period of tweaking, polishing, fixing and modifying, I feel that the article is close to FA Standards. I look forward to working with the reviewers; thank-you in advance. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 05:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image review: I saw that most of the photos are credited to a Shizuo Fukui, and because he has been dead at least 50 years the photos are public domain under Japanese copyright law. Given the conditions, I can assume that is true, but do you have a source that gives the year he died? That would clear up any ambiguity for me.
I'm afraid I can't be of much help with the image sourcing, as I'm not the original uploader of most of them (Cla68 did most of them). However, I have left a message on User:Cla68's talkpage about the issue. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 23:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User:Oda Mari actually telephoned the publisher of the book from which the photos came from (Kure Maritime Museum) and the museum confirmed that the photos are public domain. I don't know where this is recorded but Oda Mari would be the one to ask. Cla68 (talk) 22:39, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I called the publisher and the museum, but it's not from them that I learned the photos were PD. It was Agency for Cultural Affairs. See article 23 and the second paragraph from the bottom of the section. The top page of the EL is this. Oda Mari (talk) 05:36, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Oda-san. We probably need to include those links in all the IJN ship photo image files. Cla68 (talk) 07:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on criterion 3 until resolved. According to what's stated above then, the photos are all mis-tagged. The templates on the photos currently state that the copyright lapses 50 years after the death of the creator, which is why I asked for confirmation of Shikuo Fujui's death on or before 1960. According to what is listed above though, that is not the reason why the photos are in the public domain. They need to be tagged with {{PD-Japan-oldphoto}} if the photos were published before December 31, 1956. Then the publication date of Japanese Naval Warship Photo Album: Battleships and Battle Cruisers is the controlling piece of information, and should be added to the source information. As long as that book was published before the cutoff date, then we can state with certainty that the photos are all public domain. In other words, you still have some work to do to satisfy me that the copyright information is correct. Imzadi 1979 → 05:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Article 23 linked above puts it as 10 years after the photo was taken it goes into public domain. Seeing as all these photos are 65+ years old, it's pretty clear that they're in the Public Domain. I will, however, change the PD templates for the photos anyways. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 19:25, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We still need a publication date for the book to be added to the source information on all of the photos before I can strike the oppose. Imzadi 1979 → 22:26, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The publication date has nothing to do with the question whether the photos are PD or not. The publisher has no right on the photos if the photos were taken before December 31, 1956. When I called the Agency for Cultural Affairs, the woman I talked with said it was perfectly OK to copy those PD photographs from recently, even if it was yesterday, published books and use them. Because the photos are PD and copyright free, If you cannot believe me, ask them. [53] via E-mail. The address is voice@bunka.go.jp. Oda Mari (talk) 16:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The template says that they have to be published before December 31, 1956 to be in the PD. Tell me that the book containing those photo meets that criterion and you're all set. Of course we've been ignoring an issue here that I've recently remembered: they could be copyrighted in the US. For that, the photos need to be in the PD in their source country before January 1, 1996. On that date, any works that weren't in the PD in the source country had their US copyright status restored. Yes, as crazy as that sounds, they might be PD in Japan, but they could still carry a US copyright that can be enforced in the US. the correct tag on Commons is {{Not-PD-US-URAA}} to be added after the appropriate foreign PD tag if this is the case. US copyright starts, not on the date of creation, but on the date of first publication. That's why the publication date on that book will be so important. So, find me that date. Tag the photos with the additional tag if needed. Then we'll re-analyze the situation and get the proper solution Imzadi 1979 → 19:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We seem to go through this on every single Japanese ship FAC... please see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Amagi class battlecruiser/archive1 and [54]. It's an either/or: if they were published in the ten years after, they are PD because that's before 1956. If they weren't, they are PD because they weren't published in that ten-year span. As a result, they are definitely PD and therefore not eligible to have their copyright renewed under the URAA. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What's the publication date on the book? Everyone keeps dancing around a simple question. Answer that question, and the issue is resolved. Don't answer it, and my oppose stands on criterion 3 grounds. US Copyright is 100% independent of Japanese copyright, but influenced by it. Wikipedia has to follow US copyright because the servers are located in Florida. If the date of publication is old enough, yet no one seems to answer that question, then all PD concerns are satisfied. I can't find a publication date online for that book, and trust me, I tried so that I could strike my oppose. Imzadi 1979 → 04:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The book was published in 2005.[55] (search for the author too!) This is an instance quite similar to the British Crown Copyright. Crown Copyrights on certain images have expired worldwide because they were taken before 1 June 1957. Even when they lack publishing dates, etc, I don't see why CC images would be a problem when the British government—the possible copyright holder—has stated that they consider these to be PD worldwide. In a similar vein, if the Japanese government—almost certainly the copyright holder in this case—consider the images to be PD, I don't see where the problem lies. Arguing over them seems academic and pedantic when the copyright holder has specifically said they are PD.

I'll also note that multiple CC images have passed GANs and FACs (see here), and multiple Japanese images similar to these have passed GANs and FACs (see here), with image reviews from User:Elcobbola and User:Jappalang (among others). Sorry to make this such a hassle. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fukui wrote this book in 1956. The book looks like this. See these too. [56], [57], and [58]. The book has 21 photos. It is possible the Haruna photos were used in the book. But you have to check it by yourself. You can buy the book at here. Of course, the photos might have been used in some newspaper or magazines before the WW2 ended. But it is almost impossible to check the first publication of the photos. Ja WP has an article on Fukui. G translation is here. I called the museum again and they would call back in a few days. Oda Mari (talk) 10:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed something. Fukui was born in 1913 and joined the navy in 1938. How could he take those 1934, 1914, 1915, 1928, 1935 photos? Especially 1914 and 1915 photos. It's impossible. And unlike today, it must be difficult to take such photos except the navy personnel then. Creator/s should be someone else. Probably several photographers. BTW, according to the ja article, Fukui's third son is Takeo Fukui. Oda Mari (talk) 04:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The museum called back and said all of their photographs were PD. As for the copyright holder before the end of WW2, it would be Ministry of the Navy of Japan. I think almost all naval ship photos belonged to them. Oda Mari (talk) 08:53, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your work above-and-beyond, Oda. Elcobbola has cleared the images.[59] I'm not sure why Fukui was listed as the author... Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 17:55, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to commons:Template:PD-Japan-oldphoto, there is an interesting point about old Japanese photographs. Any photographs published before 1956 are in the public domain. Photographs created before 1946 and not published 10 years after that also fall into the public domain. This means that any Japanese photograph created during WW2 and before are in Japanese public domain before 1996 (and hence PD-US as well); basically, if they were unpublished before 1956, their 10 years of allowance would have elapsed, and if they were published before 1956...
Now, one possible problem could be a simultaneous publishing of the photograph before 1956 (i.e. it was published by its copyright holder in Japan and within one month in US before 1956). In that case, the subject would be treated as a US publication under US law and receive US copyright protection (if the laws were complied with). I do not see that is the case with these Haruna photographs.
Regardless, one should still supply verifiable information on the source (especially this), author, and date of these photos. Jappalang (talk) 03:16, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you folks for clearing this all up. Copyright is something that's very important to be certain about, and we need hard data and sources to verify the status. As both a semi-professional photographer and a Wikipedian in my spare time, I see both sides of the copyright and licensing coin. I'm glad that everything has been verified and confirmed now. I didn't care what previous FACs or ACRs said and did about other articles, I only cared about this article at this FAC. Thank you for dotting the Is and crossing the Ts on this issue. Imzadi 1979 → 20:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Infobox should specify that most stats are as of her second reconstruction.
Alternately, one could just add some of the stats in. I'll add a note. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 04:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The range of the main guns was increased with each reconstruction; it is not clear in the text that the range given is as of the second reconstruction.
I've added a bit to the effect that that was their maximum range. The maximum range didn't decrease when the elevation increased. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 04:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure I'd bother with the non-notable captains, but hey, it's not my article.
I've debated that w/ myself several times. I've removed a couple of them, but I've kept others. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 04:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure. Decapped. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 04:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I actually haven't had time to copyedit this one, but I did make extensive comments which may or may not be helpful at the A-class review for the sister ship Kirishima. - Dank (push to talk) 14:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Questions

  • This went through A-class review a long time ago, and I'm just getting to this one now. How do reviewers feel about "Malaya and the Dutch East Indies"? I can see it both ways ... it's shorter, and if you don't know where those were in 1942, you can click on the link ... but that means >90% of our readers are either going to click (not so likely) or have no idea where those were (more likely). The alternative would be "Malaya (now Malaysia) and the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia)", I guess. - Dank (push to talk) 21:31, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I'd be happy with the second. It adds modern context to them. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 19:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I like modern context too. Feel free to revert, but I've added the landmarks here: "Haruna primarily remained at Truk Lagoon (Micronesia), Kure Naval Base (near Hiroshima), Sasebo Naval Base (near Nagasaki), and Lingga (present-day Malaysia)". I totally understand if someone wants to revert the addition of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the basis that unnecessary references to a particularly painful part of the war could be considered non-neutral; OTOH, the best I can tell from the links, the bases were near those two cities, and most readers will have heard of them. - Dank (push to talk) 03:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, "Malaya" is not exactly the same as "Malaysia"—the former did not include Sarawak and Sabah. It doesn't seem like the ship did anything in Sarawak or Sabah, though. Ucucha 14:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good call, people might misunderstand. I've changed "now Malaysia" to "in present-day Malaysia", is that better? - Dank (push to talk) 16:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Come to think of it, the situation may be even more complex: the ship apparently covered landings at Singapore, which was part of Malaya, but is not now part of Malaysia. Perhaps the lead can just say that she covered the landings at Singapore. Ucucha 20:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The only landings at Singapore were across the narrow Straits of Johor in which no Japanese ship was involved. Haruna likely supported the landings further north in Malaya, but I haven't checked that.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you'll find that the landings were mostly in Siam, a little north of Malaya, and the army then fought south to Singapore. File:Pacific War - Malaya 1941-42 - Map.jpg is a map of that campaign showing the landings. ϢereSpielChequers 23:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's been changed to Southern Siam and Northern Malaya, since landings were occurring in both, hence why Kondo's force was designated the Malay Force. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 01:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, if I knew, I'd have an answer for you. There's a lot of these IJN designations that don't make a lot of sense. I'll ask Cla68 and see if he knows. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 01:59, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Because of their high speed, the two battleships could bombard the field and withdraw before being subjected to enemy air attack." Not disputing this, I just don't know what it means ... the ships weren't faster than the planes, are you saying they could quickly retreat to a place of relative safety? - Dank (push to talk) 04:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah; they could get in, cause destruction, get out before the American carrier fleet had time to respond. By the time they managed to launch planes, both ships would already be halfway back to Truk, so to speak. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 02:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe so. I'll check a new book I found at the library tomorrow. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 02:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
She did not. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 02:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, if you'll deal with the Centre Force/Force C issue when you get the book, I have no more issues. I'm too involved to support. Thanks everyone for the solid collaborative effort. - Dank (push to talk) 16:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose.

  • Lead is beautiful. Except: "deploying on several occasions in response to". Shouldn't it be "deployed"?

The rest looks very well written too. But:

  • "Their heavy armament and armor protection (which took up 23.3% of their approximately 30,000-ton displacement) were greatly superior to that of any other Japanese capital ship afloat at the time"—should it be "those"?

Image sizes: I always complain about tiny, detail-rich images. Why is there a practice of making them small? The guidelines changed ages ago. Can't they be at least 240px, if not 250? Otherwise, they're just black-and-white blotches in water. No point unless we can make out some details, and slow-connection readers would rather not have to click on the high-res versions.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony1 (talk • contribs) 13:40, September 9, 2010

Comments

Comments on minor prose and Manual of Style issues.

Infobox
Cap U and terminal period on the complete sentence in the "Notes" slot?
Done. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 03:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Design and construction
"Their heavy armament and armor protection (which took up 23.3 percent of their approximately 30,000-ton displacement)" - Here and elsewhere in the article, does "ton" mean "long ton" or "short ton", or "metric ton", and would it be useful to include all three?
I've removed the number. Her displacement changed several times, but the armour percentages always remained about the same. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 03:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but what about the tons later in the article, as in "with no capital ship permitted to exceed 35,000 tons"?Finetooth (talk) 04:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed it. Long Tons (also converted to tonnes). Cam (Chat)(Prof) 14:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Same sentence as above: Wikilink displacement?
Done. - Dank (push to talk)
Same sentence as above: "contributed" rather than "took up" since adding they added to rather than took from the ship's total displacement?
Done. - Dank (push to talk)
Armament
"with improvements made in flash-tightness" - What does "flash-tightness" mean? Should this be linked to something or briefly explained?
We came up with a link in another article, but I can't remember which one, and don't see an obvious link ... guys? - Dank (push to talk) 05:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, not in any of mine, perhaps in one of Parsecboy's?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps link "flash" to Muzzle flash? I'm guessing that's what it refers to. Finetooth (talk) 04:22, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done, and good enough, but I had another link, I'll find it eventually. - Dank (push to talk) 04:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not it. It relates, I'm fairly certain, to how a flash or fire can reach the magazine from the turret if stringent precautions aren't taken; the reason that HMS Invincible exploded during Jutland and HMS Tiger very nearly did. I had to explain it in those articles. If a link can't be found, then I'd suggest either modifying the text from my articles or deleting the reference.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing in the Armament section of HMS Tiger (1913), and I don't see a way to adapt the stuff in the armament section of Invincible, is there another article I can look at? - Dank (push to talk) 03:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I meant HMS Lion (1910), but I'm not sure that that's adaptable either as it explains what happened when flash-tightness wasn't maintained. Maybe you could say something like the turrets had added safety features, interlocks, etc. to prevent a fire in the turret from reaching the magazine. Alternatively there were severe fires in, IIRC, Seydlitz and Derfflinger during the war.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The main guns carried ammunition for ninety shots, and had an approximate gun-life of 250–280 shots." - Here and elsewhere in the article a number (in this case, ninety) that is bigger than nine is spelled out, but in other places numbers bigger than nine appear as digits. To some extent, whether to use digits or words depends on context, but I'm not seeing an internally consistent pattern. I think this "ninety" should be "90" and that the other numbers (such as "thirty-six Yarrow boilers" and "eleven oil-fired Kampon Boilers") should be checked for consistency. Generally, numbers bigger than nine are written as digits (although there are a fair number of exceptions such as numbers that begin a sentence).
Done. Sorry, Finetooth, I missed a bunch of these ... those neurons were sleeping, I guess. - Dank (push to talk)
Same sentence as above: The en dash doesn't scan when the sentence is read aloud; for this reason, I think "250 to 280 shots" is better than "250–280". A couple of other constructions like this appear later in the article; e.g, 5–6 rounds per minute, which would be better as "five to six rounds per minute".
Done. En-dashes are a plague, but Wikipedians really love them and I don't think they're going to let me kill off as many of them as I'd like. I got the main offenders. - Dank (push to talk)
"The sixteen 6"/50 caliber guns" - Before this instance, the guns were six-inch. Why switch to 6"? In fact, why repeat that they were 50-caliber and that there were 16 of them since the preceding sentence specifies all this? Suggestion: "The six-inch guns could fire five to six rounds per minute, with a barrel life of 500 rounds." The "eight 5"/40 caliber guns" could become "these 40-caliber guns" to avoid repetition and the 5" problem.
Good point. not sure why we didn't catch that in an earlier copyedit, the redundancy seems so obvious looking at it now. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 03:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1915–1926 Battlecruiser
"a breech explosion" - Link "breech" to Breech-loading weapon?
Done. - Dank (push to talk)
"allowed to be upgraded with improved torpedo bulges" - Should this be "anti-torpedo bulges" and linked to anti-torpedo bulge?
Done. - Dank (push to talk)
1933–1941: Fast Battleship
Lowercase "battleship" in the head?
Done. - Dank (push to talk)
Dern it, now it's done. - Dank (push to talk) 04:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Her stern was lengthened by 26 feet" - Metric conversion?
References and Bibliography
Each ampersand that is not part of a formal name should be changed to "and".
Ok. done. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 03:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are the ones in citations 3, 5, and 7 OK? Finetooth (talk) 04:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Finetooth (talk) 04:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Finetooth is one of Wikipedia's better copyeditors, guys, we're honored :) Finetooth, here's my usual disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 04:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, just doing my job. I've struck the ones that are done to make it easier to see the others. Finetooth (talk) 20:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question

  • Although they are sourced, "scrapped by 1948" in the info box and "The remnants of Haruna were raised from the sea floor in 1946 and broken up over the next two years." are questionable. Two years? It might be a mistake. I think it would be 2 months. Haruna related ja pages say she was struck from the Navy list on Nov.20, 1945 and the scrapping started at the Harima Kure Dock, the former Kure Naval Arsenal on May 2, 1946 and ended on July 4, 1946. See [60] (G translation) and [61] (G translation). Which information is correct? BTW, Haruna's flag pole removed from the ship at the 1933 upgrade is still kept at a shrine in Amagasaki. See [62] and [63]. Oda Mari (talk) 06:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not entirely sure. If subsequent scrapping and breaking up occurred at locations other than Kure over the next two years I could see it taking that long. I'll investigate it further. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 02:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Jentshura says BU 1946 at Harima.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. We'll go with that. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 03:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Query Nice read, looks well balanced, I made a few tweaks, hope you like them, if not its a wiki.

That's because there were. My mistake. I've fixed this. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 02:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks happy to count as a support, though there is an outstanding issue about the landings in Siam/Northern Malaya which I've commented on some way above. ϢereSpielChequers 00:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think we've dealt with that issue as well. Cam (Chat)(Prof) 01:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:47, 15 September 2010 [64].

Eshmun Temple

Nominator(s): Eli+ 16:02, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because i believe it meets the FA criteria. The article went from being a minor stub to a thoroughly referenced collection of valuable information. thank you for taking the time to review this entry.Eli+ 16:02, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Some of the information given as footnotes needs to be cited to sources. For example, what is the source of the description shown as Note 7? What is the source of the translation in Note 9
  • Nitpicks:-
    • Is ref 4 in French?
    • Ref 9: Books on Demand is a vanity publisher. Should be noted "self-published".
    • Publisher locations should be given consistently - all or none.
    • "pp." should be used for page ranges. "p." for single pages

Otherwise sources all look OK Brianboulton (talk) 21:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd move the last sentence of the Historical background section to the Construction section as it fits in better in the latter section. It cannot easily be appended to the previous paragraph in the former section.
haphazardly... - do you mean "by chance" here?
not a deal-breaker. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Citrus groves, known as Bustan el-Sheikh - I italicised this as this is the correct use not quotes for foreign terms - you may want to put the arabic letters here too? Not essential but I think it is a nice touch.
Might be a good idea to link hydraulic but question is where to...

Overall, I am leaning to support in terms of prose now - I think it is a well-rounded article, but I have no idea whether it is fully comprehensive. It appears so but I am not familiar with the subject matter so will await someone with more background expertise in the area. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
  • The intro mentions Eshmunazar II, the Achaemenid Era, Bodashtart and Yatan Milk but without dates. They could all do with a rough date range in brackets.
  • "Ydll" spring - is this the name of the spring? If so, this could be made a little clearer (perhaps by removing the quotes?)
Maybe your explanation below could be put into a footnote in the article. Simon Burchell (talk) 18:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...especially those inscribed with ancient texts... - perhaps "ancient texts" could be wikilinked to something relevant, maybe the script they were written in or something?
  • (Eshmun section) "...Eshmun was the Phoenician god of healing..." then "...he is one of the most important divinities...". Is or was? Is Eshmun still worshipped in any form? If not then this should be past tense.
  • "The myth of Eshmun was related by Damascius and Photius": Perhaps a brief description of each e.g. "by the 5th-6th century CE Athenian philospher Damascius" or something better.
  • The wikilink to Asclepius should perhaps be moved. At the moment "Asclepius River" links to the article on the Greek deity. This should be de-linked (or linked to an appropriate river article) and the link moved to the first mention of the god in the Eshmun section.
I've added in a couple of wikilinks. I've gone through the first couple of sections and I'll carry on from Historical background later. So far it looks like a nice article and all my comments above are just nitpicking.
Simon Burchell (talk) 11:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment by nominator ^^ that's what i call reading between the lines, thanks mates :)
  1. I purposefully kept the quotes when referring to the YDLL spring, some sources write it as Yidlal, others omit the vowels; you see, the Phoenicians did not write their vowels so 'Idll could be interpreted as Yidlal, Yodlal, Yadlal, Yidlel, Yedlel, Yedlil, Yedlol, and the list goes on; the word has no equivalent in modern semitic languages (hebrew is usually the reference). i preferred keeping the word in its original written form (YDLL), that's why i kept the quotes.
  2. i linked "ancient texts" to Phoenician alphabet even though inscriptions in Greek, Roman as well as other now defunct languages were found on site because the Phoenician texts hold much more scientific and historical value.
  3. other issues>> FIXED, thanks Eli+ 16:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments
  • Wiktionary links should not be inserted as hyperlinks (i.e. as external links, e.g. [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/instate instated] ), rather as wikilinks [[wiktionary:instate|instated]]. I've fixed this in the article but haven't checked if there are any more.
  • Many of the inline citations interrupt the flow of reading and should be placed after punctuation rather than in the middle of sentences. See Wikipedia:Mos#Punctuation_and_inline_citations. This is the only real problem I have with the article and needs to be sorted.
  • I linked Ionic to Ionia, I assume this is where was meant but please check that I got it right.
  • "The extramural Eshmun Temple was associated with lustral cult and healing" - something isn't right here, maybe "the lustral cult".
  • "The notoriety of the sanctuary was far reaching" - Notoriety or fame? The article doesn't give the impression of a notorious site.
I've made some minor changes to the article - please check that I haven't changed the meaning of anything or linked to the wrong place.

Simon Burchell (talk) 18:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment by nominator Ol Klear, kept the notes though, cannot move these without having them look out of context Eli+ 20:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Thanks for the changes, I still think "Ydll" could use a footnote with your explanation (see my comment above). Nice article, best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 06:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment by nominator i will try to append the YDLL thingy in a footnote once i get home, i added a footnote about the YDLL inscription, I;m not quite happy with the wording though, could someone please c/e it ? Simon, Ionic link is ok, i don't know how i missed so many links. I'm truly grateful for your help and guidance; thank you all for your time. Eli+ 21:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No problem - glad to be of help. I've rephrase the footnote. Best regards, and good luck with the nomination, Simon Burchell (talk) 08:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Some nice writing, although a few glitches are evident. A very good read.

  • I don't know what MOSNUM says, but to me, 1 mi equals 2 km is just too lumpy. 1.6 mi, isn't it?
  • Do you trust Wiktionary? I find it amateurish. And best not to force our readers to go on an expedition to another site to learn what "lustral" means. You couldn't gloss it in parentheses neatly, could you? Same with "instated". They're important to a reader's comprehension ... so teach us on the spot, unless it's really clunky. Actually, "instated" is rather obvious from the context; do we need it to be light blue?
  • "ancient texts" is the pipe for "Phonecian alphabet"? MOSLINK discourages deceptive pipes. Why not "ancient texts in the Phonecian alphabet"? Comma before "providing" is pretty necessary. Can you link Christianity to a section in that article? Is "treasure hunters" a mystery?
  • Possibly ellipsis for last "was" in the lead. Unsure.
  • "The first blow to the Eshmun sanctuary was by an earthquake"—An earthquake belts me with a cricket bat? Comma after "rebuilt", probably.
  • Could the first pic of the inscription be a bit bigger? That would suit the long caption, too, which overwhelms the script.
  • Spring flowers image is fine, although I would put it and the next image at the top of the section on the right (less chance of bad effects for readers with wide windows). Can the ashlar be bigger? It's detail-rich.
  • Inconsistent: 12-foot is main unit?
  • "It is 2.15 metres (7.1 ft) long by 2.26 metres (7.4 ft) wide and 2.17 metres (7.1 ft) tall." Why not do it the neat way that's been used in the previous para? Tony (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment by nominator

Hey, thanks for taking the time to review this article.

  • 2km ~ 1.24 miles, i used the conversion templates, and checked against another coverter.
  • i substituted lustral for purificatory in order not to refer to wiktionary
  • i didn't get where i should place the images, feel free to redistribute the flowers and the ashlar pivs as you please, (i don;t own the article :P)
  • you are right the usage of ft as main unit was not smart
  • the dimensions are as neat as they can be, at least to my very limited experience, if anyone has an alternative, please do make the modifications.
  • other suggestions >> done

Thanks again for your time and guidance. Eli+ 18:01, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: Made a few tweaks on the inscription image, but all are fine. Jappalang (talk) 02:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:10, 11 September 2010 [65].

Ambondro mahabo

Nominator(s): Ucucha 15:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a 170-million-year-old broken piece of jaw. It is a highly interesting piece of jaw, because the teeth are the oldest with the modern grinding-and-shearing mammalian tooth pattern, and its 1999 discovery set the stage for one of the major controversies of mammalian paleontology. I hope I covered that controversy neutrally and comprehensively. The article benefited from a thorough GA review by Sasata and André Wyss was kind enough to donate an image. Ucucha 15:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments & support - High quality as usual and a bit challenging due to technical terms but intriguing to follow. Some comments:
    • "The scientific name derives from the village of Ambondromahabo, close to which the fossil was found. It was found in the Bathonian" - Is a rewording possible here?
      • Reworded.
    • "It is in the collection of the University of Antananarivo as specimen UA 10602" - A &nbsp; maybe in UA 10602? It breaks in my settings.
      • Done.
    • I couldn't fully understand the dental technical terms until I saw the picture in [Rougier et al., 2007, p.13] additional explanatory text would certainly not help as the terms are too many but such a labeled picture certainly would --Egmontaz♤ talk 07:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • You're probably right; unfortunately, we don't have occlusal views of australosphenidan teeth on Wikipedia (which is what we'll need for this), and rice rat teeth are too different. I've tried drawing a diagram myself, but it's worthless. Still thinking of a way to solve this. Ucucha 09:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: Any reason why refs 1 and 2 are not combined? Otherwise all sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 13:38, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's slightly more precise like this—ref. 2 cites quite a few things, and all are exclusively on p. 58. Thanks for the check. Ucucha 13:42, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: Very nice... especially with the illustrations. Just a few comments.

  • The first sentence of the second paragraph in the "Description" section (starting "The front half of the...") seems a little odd with the double parentheses. Maybe use a colon instead of the first (outer) set?
    • Yes, that's better.
  • "Consequently, they proposed that tribosphenic mammals did not, as was the prevailing view, appear..." – again, it sounds a little odd. Maybe try: "Consequently, they contradicted the prevailing view that tribosphenic mammals evolved on the northern continents (Laurasia), instead proposing that they evolved in the south (Gondwana)."
    • I don't quite like the word "contradicted" here, so I used a different rewording.
  • The illustration of the rat molar is helpful, but the caption, in my opinion, doesn't really explain its presence. I can see some people asking: "Why is there a rodent molar in this article?" I know it sounds silly, but I think the caption need to more explicitly state that it is to help readers understand the terminology. It might even help to remove the reference to the rodent and describe it simply as a sample tribosphenic molar.
    • Well, rodent teeth aren't exactly tribosphenic (therians are primitively tribosphenic, but many groups have more specialized teeth that lost the original tribosphenic design). I have reworded the caption to make its purpose clearer. I did keep the portion saying it is Megalomys, if only to clarify that it is not Ambondro. Ucucha 01:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise it looked good to my eyes. As you know, I'm not expert on craniodental anatomy, so this was a bit over my head. But for the most part, it seemed to make sense and seemed to be thorough and neutral. – VisionHolder « talk » 00:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review! Ucucha 01:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Commemt as with some previous articles, there are technical terms that are re-linked/unlnked and unexplained, eg The cristid obliqua connects to the hypoconid. The smaller hypoconulid cusp is present, lingual to the hypoconid, The bolded words appear to be unexplained and unlinked. Please check the text, especially in the description section to make sure that technical terms are not unintelligible to the lay reader Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:40, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image Review: Images look good. The taxobox image, File:Ambondro lingual.jpg has an OTRS pending, but I trust Ucucha and I have no doubt that it will be processed without issue in due time. – VisionHolder « talk » 02:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; I just replaced one image. Ucucha 02:32, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No change in opinion. Images are fine. – VisionHolder « talk » 03:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Oppose. While impressed by this excellent piece of scholarship, its language is pushing the limits of accessability to a lay reader. I more or less followed it, but then again, I did palaeontology at university (albeit some decades past :-)). I'd like to hear the view of other editors re accessability and WIAFA criterion 1a ("its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard"). hamiltonstone (talk) 11:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've made a few more changes. I'm not sure what else can be done, though; this is a very technical subject, and I've already gone through it and rewritten large swathes of it several times. Ucucha 12:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some specifics:

  • Nice to hear that! Thanks for your comments; I've responded below.
  • Lead: "the basic arrangement also present in marsupial and placental mammals" - the basic arrangement of what? I take it one means "of teeth in the jaw" or "of molars", but it should be spelt out.
  • Clarified; it's about molars (usually at least, premolars sometimes get molar-like).
  • Lead: "with putatively tribosphenic teeth". This is, pardon the pun, a bit of a mouthful. Is it at least possible to use a more everyday word than putatively?
  • I think it fits the meaning best. Perhaps "supposedly" would work, but it has negative connotations.
  • Description: In the first para, we are told there are three teeth, and two are named m1 and m2. Yet the second para begins "The front half of the m1–2", as though this was a single object (with a newly-introduced abbreviation). Surely the "front half" of two distinct teeth is simply m1?
  • Sorry, that is paleontologese for "m1 and m2". Clarified.
  • Description: "At the back of the trigonid, the distal metacristid, a crest" would be more readable to a lay person if it read along the lines of "At the back of the trigonid, a crest (called the distal metacristid)"
  • I considered this when I wrote it, but it would then read "a crest ... is located at a relatively labial position"; the point of the sentence is that it is this specific crest, the distal metacristid, that is at this relatively labial position.
  • Description: "at a relatively labial position" - should this be "in a relatively labial position"?
  • Perhaps; "at" sounds better to me, but I may well be wrong.
  • Description: "contains a well-developed cusp, the hypoconid, on the labial side" and "The smaller hypoconulid cusp is present, lingual to the hypoconid" - examples where i would favour just dropping the technically precise language, regardless of the fact that "labial" and "lingual" have been previously explained. It is instances such as this that make it read too much like a paleontological reference and not enough like an everyperson's encyclopedia. Try "The smaller hypoconulid cusp is present, on the inner side from the hypoconid" etc. Ditto "Further lingual from the hypoconulid".
  • Removed "labial" and "lingual" here.
  • Description: "Flynn and colleagues identified wear facets five and six lingual to the distal metacristid–cristid obliqua" - this is probably the densest technical language of the section and needs reworking. Also, while "protoconid" has previously been linked, we don't know what a "protocone" is.
  • Not sure what else can be done here; this particular sentence may still be technical, but the entire sentence before it is devoted to explaining what wear facets are. Ucucha 12:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Terminological question: why the apparent linguistic/terminological variation between "protocone" and "paraconid" (rather than paracone) and what is the difference between a hypoconulid cusp and a hypocone? Etc.
  • In general, terms for lower molar features get -id added relative to corresponding upper molar features. Thus, a protocone is a cusp on the upper molars, and a protoconid is on the lowers. The hypocone is never mentioned, but the hypoconid and the hypoconulid are distinct cusps of the talonid, as shown in the diagram and in the description. I slightly clarified the sentence on wear facets. Ucucha 01:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interpretation: because the nature of tribosphenic teeth is so critical to this subject, the explanation of what they are is important. That should include an explanation of what is meant by "occluding".
  • Rephrased that. The article already explains what "tribosphenic" is.
  • Interpretation: I was sure that "and Cretaceous through living monotremes" was some sort of typo. Eventually I ?realised that it meant "monotremes from the Cretaceous through to the present", and i suggest the language be changed to something less formal. Unless it really is a typo, for "Cretaceous, though living, monotremes".
  • Reworded.
  • Interpretation: "anterolabial corner". Plain English please. "Rear outer" perhaps?!
  • Outer front.
  • Interpretation: "This change resulted from several changes to the data matrix Luo et al. used, particularly in the states for monotremes." Genuinely have no idea what this means, specifically arising (I assume) from particular technical meaning of the term "states" in this context. Also, the passive voice means it isn't clear whether it was Woodburne et all who made the "changes to the data matrix".
  • Reworded.
  • There are some difficulties in following the "Interpretation" (most of which I doubt arise from the writing of the WP article!). It would help if the article text was explicitly cross-referenced to the cladogram at the right. However, one of the confusing features of that item is that the upper clad. shows Australosphenida and Boreosphenida, whereas the bottom lacks these. Is one supposed to infer that the very short base line for the Woodburne et all clad. represents Australosphenida (which is what I did) and that they were leaving out the Boreosphenida altogether? Can someone look at this?
  • The point is that Woodburne did not find support for the Boreosphenida–Australosphenida hypothesis. I reworded the piece about Woodburne in the text to clarify that and added explicit references to the cladograms. Ucucha 01:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good article though! hamiltonstone (talk) 00:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Getting better - still pretty technical. Why "Flynn and colleagues" but "Luo et al"? I also would expect "et al" to be italicised. Can you consider reversing the position of the two cladograms to match the order in which they are referred to in text? hamiltonstone (talk) 03:00, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed the one in-text instance of "et al." (which doesn't need italics—it rarely gets them in the paleontological literature). I put the Rougier et al. cladogram at the top because it is essentially similar to cladograms proposed earlier by Luo et al. (2001; 2002), but includes more australosphenidans and therefore gives a more complete picture of the immediate relationships of Ambondro. Ucucha 11:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Getting closer. I think my remaining objection is to the passage "Flynn and colleagues identified wear facets five and six at the distal metacristid–cristid obliqua and in front of the hypoconulid, within the talonid basin". This is not aided by the fact that Figure 2 illustrates neither the distal metacristid or the cristid obliqua, and that "obliqua" is not defined (I am assuming that is because it is a compound noun, not a word with a separate definition?) Can I get some additional information (here, not in the article): the article refers to a standard numbering system for wear facets. Am I right in inferring that numbers 5 and 6 in other animals are by definition caused by a protocone? hamiltonstone (talk) 00:56, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:10, 11 September 2010 [66].

Aquaria (video game)

Nominator(s): PresN 20:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My second indie video game FAC after Flower (video game), I think this article is ready for prime time. It's been GA'd and PR'd, and I've given it a good copyedit (and read it through backwards). Have at it! --PresN 20:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support I love this game and the article seems good overall. I have a few suggestions.
Could we get more pictures? Maybe a picture of the creators or a picture from the Independent Games Festival or another gameplay image? Since the game is now open source, I'm not sure what the freeness status of game images is. I see two images were reduced to one in GA review, but personally I think more images would improve it.
This statement could use a citation: "As the game opens, Naija has lost almost all her memories, and is unaware of the world outside of her home as she "lives as a simple creature"."
It's a little bit odd that the talk page is empty, but I guess it doesn't really matter.
Overall the content is solid and comprehensive. ~~Andrew Keenan Richardson~~ 05:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the support!
  • The game images are still not free; the code is open source but the art/music is copyrighted. To add another picture I'd need to have a specific subject that needs to be shown, and I can't think of any.
  • The ref for the quote was a few sentences later; I've copied it back to the quote as well.
  • Well, the last comment on the page was January 2009. --PresN 15:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • A bit of passive voice in the lead: "gameplay is focused", "Songs sung by Naija"
      • Fixed.
    • "a perceived lack of variety of objectives" could be considered POV, could also use a reword to avoid repeating "of"
      • Fixed.
    • The gameplay section mentions an Xbox 360 controller, but Xbox isn't listed as an available platform...
      • It's not. You can plug in an Xbox 360 controller into a pc, it's just a usb cable. Tried to clarify.
    • "which Naija can interact with directly or indirectly", indirectly how? If she can interact both ways, is it necessary to mention it at all? Perhaps remove this bit and combine the remaining sentence with the next one and only mention interaction starting with the next paragraph.
      • Fixed.
    • Maybe other reviewers will disagree with me, but do you have to list all the forms? I suggest picking a handful of forms that are varied and interesting to the reader and leave the rest unsaid. The gameplay section is generally an overview and you don't need to get into nitty-gritty detail about every feature of the game. It'll also let you combine that paragraph with the previous one.
      • Eh, I'm not too opposed to this, but I'd like another opinion before I cut it out.
    • "unlike forms can also learn them", not sure what you're trying to say here. This last gameplay paragraph is a little choppy.
      • I just meant that in contrast to forms, which you cannot use until you "learn" them, even if you sing the right song, you can make recipes by blindly combining ingredients without first "learning" them. Fixed, and tried to clean up the paragraph.
    • "and in most of them... accompanied by cutscenes", so what?
      • Heh, cut a bit.
    • "After being confronted... explore the world around her", too many ideas going on at once. Try to split into two sentences to cut down on # of commas.
      • Ah, run-on sentences full of commas, my personal weakness.
    • Lots of "whiles" in the first paragraph of development, consider rewording
      • Fixed.
    • "only limiting factor is physical limitations" reword to avoid repetition of "limit"
      • Fixed.
    • "quibbles", POV word choice, it implies these reviewers' criticisms are nit-picky and unimportant (even if one reviewer admits it)
      • Fixed.
  • No judgment until nominator responds. Axem Titanium (talk) 06:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:53, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I really enjoyed reading your article on Flower, so I'd love to read this :)

  • "by Alec Holowka and Derek Yu, who together form the independent game company Bit Blot which developed and originally published the game" Needs another comma somewhere, I think
    • Fixed.
  • "be hostile, friendly, or may pay no notice to her" Rephrase?
    • Fixed.
  • "they are acquired in" in which they are acquired
    • I'll end sentences with prepositions if I want to :). Fixed.
  • Shouldn't plot sections go before gameplay sections?
    • Nope, it's gameplay first. Wikipedia:VG/GL#Organization. You give the framework for how the game works first, then show how the plot is presented through it. It's not as important for adventure games, but it's really helpful for games with a larger disconnect between plot and gameplay such as RPGs and RTS games.
  • "almost all her memories" All of her memories?
    • Fixed; each time I go through this process my copyediting gets a little better.
  • "perspective of after the events of the game are over" Rephrase?
    • I've been having trouble with this sentence; tell me if this works better.
  • "or by their own gods" Not clear what this means.
    • Fixed.
  • "defeating a god" their god, maybe, but I thought you'd already said they were no longer gods?
    • Fixed.
  • "descends into the" to the?
    • Fixed.
  • "bottom of the ocean to confront the god" repetition of "ocean"
    • Fixed.
  • "the songs in the game's" on the game's?
    • I've generally seen it as "in" the soundtrack if it's during the game, and "on" the soundtrack as part of a separately-published album. The idea being that in the first case the soundtrack is the collection of music during the game, and the component songs are "in" it, and in the second case its referring to the disc or medium that the songs are presented "on".
  • In the reception section, could we possibly have the refs straight after the quote?
    • Sure; not sure if that's correct, but I'm sure someone will comment if it's not.
  • I'm not certain the details of the release history really belong in the lead, but that may be just me.
    • I'm leaving it for now, though I removed some of the detail on the dates. If anyone else raises the point as a concern, I'll pull it.
  • I would strongly disagree with the above that we need more non-free content in the article, but any free pictures we have may break up the text nicely.

Overall, very nice. J Milburn (talk) 16:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Picture update- Hahnchen got bit blot to release a bunch of photos and screenshots as CC-by-SA, so there are now more images in the article and they're all free. --PresN 23:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image review—Per a ping on my talk page, I did a review. The infobox image has a valid fair-use rationale that is appropriate for the image's use. The others are all Creative Commons licensed per the OTRS ticket on file. Imzadi 1979 → 02:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this case, the images comply with crit. 3. I can't access OTRS, but I can't imagine a reason why the OTRS tickets verifying the Creative Commons status would be wrong. As for captions, the first caption on File:Aquaria - Screenshot 02.jpg could be slimmed down to be succinct. The other captions don't need periods as they aren't full sentences. Otherwise, in my opinion, all of crit. 3 has been met. Imzadi 1979 → 04:43, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:10, 11 September 2010 [67].

Battle of Quebec (1775)

Nominator(s): Magic♪piano 01:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The first big American defeat of the American Revolutionary War. It went through a MILHIST A-class review in May, and I think its prose benefited from learning experiences in my FAC submissions earlier this year. I hope it meets with your approval. Magic♪piano 01:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • There is some inconsistency in providing publisher locations
    • All books should now have locations.
  • It ought to be made clear that the Griffin book is published by the author.
    • Done.
  • The Griffin book does not appear to be cited in the article, and perhaps should be listed as further reading?
    • It is referenced in note 1; I have changed the text in the note to be consistent with other references there.
  • Same point with Vergereau-Dewey book
  • Same point with the Ward & Alden book.

Otherwise sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 10:58, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:53, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments: Just started to work my way through the article now, may be a while until I have gone through it totally due to my skiving at work XD
Ok, so far my only concern are the following:
  • “In September 1775, the Continental Army began moving into Quebec, with the goal of liberating it from British military control.”
Is this not POV pushing (unless I have taken it in the wrong context), the next paragraph talks about how local inhabitants aided both sides, how the French had generally accepted British control and the British had recently passed certain laws to re-establish certain rights etc. So who were the Americans (Rebels :p) liberating?
Montgomery published a propaganda tract that said essentially this, so it is representative of the stated American goal. They thought they were liberating the locals, who (courtesy of the 1774 Quebec Act) did not have representative government, and needed to be freed from an authoritarian British regime that denied them basic rights. (The fact that the Quebec Act created a somewhat more accomodating government than the Royal Proclamation of 1763 did not enter into the American calculation, to their detriment.) I figure the statement as it stands implies it's their position, and not an editorial one. If you disagree, I can make it more explicit. Magic♪piano 17:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On a second read, looks like i just misinterpreted it first time round. Seems fine.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 07:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • ”Montgomery realized he was in a very difficult position, since the frozen ground prevented the digging of trenches and his lack of heavy weapons made it impossible to breach the city's defenses. ... Arnold would lead one attack to smash through the walls at the north end of the lower town, and Montgomery would follow along the St. Lawrence south of the town.”
    This bit has me confused; if it was initially stated that Montgomery did not have the weapons to breech the walls then how, after splitting his force would they be able to? Granted the next section does refer to them as the outer wooden walls and not the main defenses, i think this should be clarified.
I've added some words to clarify this. Magic♪piano 17:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CheersEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 07:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • External Links need to use the correct citeweb template.
Done (although this hasn't been an issue in my previous FACs...) Magic♪piano 17:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have in the pass, i guess it depends on who looks at it :P EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 07:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Other than that the article looks well researched, intresting to read, everything is consistent and i will support it for FA status pending the above.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:38, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With the changes made, i have just added the portal to the article, i honeslty cant see anything majorly at fault with the article; its a good read, imformative and appears to tick off everything on the list.
  • Support. A nice ripping yarn of British derring-do. I have only one comment and it's that this sentence paints all sorts of pictures in my mind: "Montgomery attempted to send a personal letter to Carleton demanding the city's surrender, using a woman as the messenger." I have a vision of her being flung over the city walls, perhaps with a message written on her body somewhere. What about something like "employed a woman to deliver a personal letter to the British"? It seems that there might be some significance in it being a woman, presumably because Montgomery thought that the British would be too gallant to fire on a female? Malleus Fatuorum 12:42, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for that visual (and the support). I believe (but don't think I've seen it stated in sources) that the reason was indeed to avoid a repeat of what happened to Arnold's messengers. Magic♪piano 12:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Interesting read. I enjoyed it, though I must confess I would have enjoyed it more if the Americans had won :) In any case, I give my support to the article for FA-class. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-check of prose in ONE para the middle. [Support now (1a)] Tony (talk) 12:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC) Lots to fix. What is the rest of it like?[reply]

  • "Three days later he issued a proclamation stating that any able-bodied man within the town that did not take up arms would be assumed to be a rebel or a spy, and would be treated as such. Men not taking up arms were given four days to leave.[17] The result of this proclamation was that As a result, about 500 inhabitants (including 200 British and 300 Canadiens) joined the defense." So the town did not take up arms? "Who".
  • Whenever I see "also" (worse, two of them close by) I look for better ways; and "trained" × 2: "Carleton also took steps to address the weak points of the town's defensive fortifications. He had two log barricades and palisades erected along the St. Lawrence shoreline, within the area covered by his cannons. He assigned his forces to defensive positions along the walls and the inner defenses.[19] He also made sure the under-trained militia in his forces were under well-trained leadership." Consider this instead: "Carleton took steps to address the weak points of the town's defensive fortifications: he had two log barricades and palisades erected along the St. Lawrence shoreline in the area covered by his cannons; he assigned his forces to defensive positions along the walls and the inner defenses;[19] and he made sure the under-trained in his forces were under strong leadership."
  • "Many of the expedition's food stores were spoiled because of bad weather and wrecked boats."—Consider a neater version without the doubled-up causality: "Bad weather and wrecked boats spoiled many of the expedition's food stores."
  • ", among them one of the New England battalions as well as and others who had become sick or wounded along the way".
  • Causality again unnecessarily explicit (at the end of each clause ... the first is obvious from the previous sentence): "In spite of the terrible condition his troops were in following the trek, Arnold immediately began to gather boats so they could cross the river." -> "Despite the terrible condition his troops, Arnold immediately began to gather boats for the river crossing. Once on the other side, he moved ..."
  • "The troops that ...". Are they robots or people? Tony (talk) 01:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments. Just wanted to return the favour for your review at Petitcodiac River. I'm just going to check the prose and MoS:
  • "...to converge in the lower city, outside the walls, before scaling the walls themselves." -> Not much of an issue as far as redundancy goes, but is it possible to try and rephrase the double "walls"?
  • Could you keep the spelling of the word "towards" consistent throughout the article?
  • "...was that the large French Catholic Canadien..." -> The term "Canadien" is a demonym for French Canadians; this makes the word "French" redundant, although you should probably just remove the word "Canadien" to avoid ambiguity. If you choose the latter, you should have other occurrences of the word to reflect that.
  • Comment Sigh. "Canadien" is also often "helpfully" edited to "Canadian" because it looks like a typo. Yes, it's redundant; to most non-Canadians, I suspect it's also a little jargonny, so the added definitional clause on first use strikes me as appropriate. Magic♪piano 00:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough. You can't blame the wiki-gnomes, however; I myself am a French-Canadian (New Brunswick though, not Quebec), and I was about to change it to "Canadian" had I not clicked the wiki-link to the article. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Final two sentences of Defense of the province: can a proper synonym for "defenses" be found to avoid the second use of the word?
  • Your subordinate clauses have no commas following them in many cases.
  • "The troops approaching Quebec's walls were a pitiful force." -> Could we use a word other than pitiful? Sounds a little too subjective.
  • "...the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd New York regiments, a company of artillery raised by John Lamb..." -> Should "raised" be replaced with "trained" here? A second occurrence is a few words later, as well.
  • "...so they froze some snow into blocks and fashioned a solid wall." -> Sculpted, maybe? Perhaps it would be best to omit "some" as well.
  • "It was impossible to return the defenders' fire..." -> Was it truly impossible to return fire? If not, I suggest changing the word to loosen its intention.
  • "...and reported 30 Americans killed, and "many perished on the River" attempting to get away." -> And... and? Maybe using a semi-colon would help with the structure here.
  • I found times where serial commas were used, and times where they were not. This should be consistent.
  • I'm not exactly knowledgeable here, but is it supposed to be "at Quebec" or "in Quebec"?
  • Fixed I mostly standardized on "at"; the few remaining "in"s just read wrong.
That's about what I could find. Please note when you complete something so I can verify it and lend my support. Very interesting read! EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 04:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your commentary; I think I've addressed everything. Magic♪piano 16:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You have. I have no further problems with the article. Thank you for helping to keep the history of Quebec alive (just goes to show Americans can't win at everything (1812 ), but that's a topic for another day)! EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your sharp-eyed prose editing (and your support, of course). Magic♪piano 00:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image Review: All good; eight images are in the public domain, one is licensed under a free license. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Indeed, but could I suggest that images be placed more towards the top of each section? If you don't put your window very wide, "Benedict Arnold" creeps into the next section, for example. And I wonder whether you'd consider enlarging some of them. John Trumbull, St. John's, and some of the other art works are beautiful: don't they deserve at least 240px? Or 250? Tony (talk) 12:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:23, 9 September 2010 [68].

Wood Siding railway station

Nominator(s):  – iridescent 12:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of all the obscure stations in Buckinghamshire which somehow ended up briefly as outposts of the London Underground, Wood Siding probably made the least likely tube station. It served an area with almost no population (the owners didn't even bother to collect passenger usage figures for it) and was primarily a collection point for milk, and the "station building" was a small shed "with shelf and drawer". In 64 years of existence the only significant things to happen there were the sole member of staff getting a ladder so he could look out for oncoming trains, and the station being rebuilt on a bridge to allow another rail line to pass underneath. Its main interest today lies in the fact that it's one of the few vestiges of the Brill Tramway to have left any visible evidence of its existence, in the form of a ruined bridge which once supported it. – iridescent 12:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support by Ruhrfisch. Very nicely done and an interesting read. I have two quibbles, which do not detract from my support.
    • In the lead, the sentence As a result, Wood Siding became a station on the London Underground network, despite being over 40 miles (60 km) from central London. seems needlessly vague on the distance. The article later gives a more exact figure (45 miles, 72 km) which I would use here. I also note that 40 miles is 64 km, and the actual distance is thus 12 km greater than the 60 km stated in the lead.
      • Basically, any precise figure will be wrong, so the figures are intentionally very vague. The track didn't run in a straight line, and from Wood Siding to the City of London was around 55 miles, depending on where exactly in the city one was going and what route one took. London is a polycentric city, and there's no set definition of "central London"; as the crow flies, Wood Siding is 75.4 km (about 47 miles) from the Metropolitan Railway's city terminus at Aldgate, 74.4 km (about 46 miles) from the London Stone (the historic datum point for distances from London), 72.5km (45 miles) from Charing Cross (the current datum point for distance from London), 68 km (42 miles) from the edge of Travelcard Zone 1 (the generally-accepted edge of "central London" for transport articles), and 61 km (38 miles) from the A406 road, which is generally considered as the boundary between inner and outer London. – iridescent 17:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks for the clarification. I understand that London is not a point ;-) , but I still have two nitpicky issues here. One is that 40 miles is not equal to 60 km, so if you know can do conversions in your head and read this, it is jarring. I read this and thought "60 klicks is more like 36 miles than 40, this is an error". Then I stopped and calculated it to make sure - it distracted me from the article. The second thing is if it is unclear, why not give a range or some idea of the values possible? My strong guess is that the Travelcard Zones and A406 both post-date the 1935 removal of the station, so I doubt people of the day would have used them for calculating distances (though modern readers might). The article also specifies the City of London as the destination, so it is not as uncertain as ring roads and travel zones imply. So why not write something like Thus Wood Siding became a London Underground station, despite it being about 55 miles (89 km) by rail and over two hours travel from the City of London, and 46.2 miles (74.4 km) from the London Stone as the crow flies.[27]
          • I'm a bit reluctant to; the City (the old centre of London to which these trains ran) is quite a distance from the West End (the place most people would consider "central London", then and now). How about getting rid of the distance altogether and just using the "two hours"? I'm reluctant to use the London Stone as any kind of marker; I'd wager that the majority of people in London, let alone anywhere else, have no idea what or where it is (as previously mentioned, "distance from London" is always nowadays taken to mean distance from Charing Cross). – iridescent 20:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I was following the article as written in specifying the City: Thus, despite it being 45 miles (72 km) and over two hours travel from the City of London, Wood Siding became a London Underground station.[27] I think it is useful to have both the time and some distance(s) relative to London, but defer to your judgment. Would it be better to give both the distance as the crow flies from Charing Cross (since that is what most people today expect) and the rough distance by rail and time to the City of London, since that was the terminus of the rail line? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:12, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • The point I was trying to make was "it was nowhere near London, but was still formally part of the London Underground". Distance from the City won't work in that context, as the City is some way east-of-centre; parts of West London are up to 20 miles from the City. To my eyes, mentioning Charing Cross will make things more confusing. – iridescent 21:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I understood the point and am not trying be argumentative. Let me try to summarize my thoughts on this. 1) Conversions between miles and kilometres should be more exact than what is currently in the lead. 2) The lead, as a summary of the rest of the article, should not have a distance that is different than the one in the body of the article (whatever that distance may be). 3) I think that both the distance and the time between this station and "London" are important to include. Just giving time can be misleading, in part because of the only speeds given elsewhere in the article (5 to 8 miles per hour might make one think a two hour journey by rail was only 10 to 16 miles in length). I have been fortunate enough to visit London a few times, but am by no means an expert on it, so I defer to your judgment on this. However, what I was trying to do above was use the information you provided in this FAC (i.e. the distances to London Stone and Charing Cross and differentiating between direct and rail distances). I have thought about this a fair amount and I believe the simplest thing to do would be to give the rough time and distance of a rail journey from this station to "London", since that is what is most relevant to the article. How long would it have taken a passenger who boarded a train at this stop to get to "London", and what distance would that journey have been? It also occurs to me that there is probably a prominent station in London that could be used as the end point of the journey - my guess is Baker Street or Kings Cross St Pancras would be the best known. I would not include an "as the crow flies" distance, since this is ana article about a station used by humans, not crows. So again as a suggestion only, to try and give you my idea: Thus, despite it being X miles (Y km) by rail and over two hours travel from STATION Z in [some part of] London, Wood Siding became a London Underground station.[27] I hope this helps, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 22:43, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the problem is that historic London contains no railway stations (or indeed railways), other than the relatively minor Thameslink, as they were banned throughout the rail boom and thus were all built in the countryside—the London Underground was invented in the first place as a means of linking the railway stations to the populated areas. The late-19th-century boundary of London can be traced quite neatly by following the line of railway stations (including the two you mention) outside the former boundary. I imagine most readers of this will have come from the Brill Tramway parent article, in which this is explained, so a travel time to (say) Kings Cross will immediately prompt a "but that wasn't in London then" response. How about "45 miles and two hours travel from the City of London"? – iridescent 23:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is fine with me - I only avoided "City of London" as you had seemed against using it above. Also, and this is likely my ignorance showing, but I meant the underground stations on the Metropolitan Line, which I presume this connected with in someway. I checked the articles on the two stations I mentioned and I thought that they were both built before this became part of the MR. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I try to avoid "City of London" when I can, due to the potential for confusion for people who aren't familiar with the oddities of the difference between the City of London, the city of London, the County of London and Greater London, but on reflection I think it's reasonable as the least confusing option. – iridescent 08:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have struck above - since City of London is wikilinked, I think that helps avoid confusion too. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 11:25, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are two places that use fractional miles then decimal kilometers, which look odd / inconsistent to me: "a surviving fragment of Bernwood Forest 1 1⁄2 miles (2.4 km) from the town of Brill" and "the foot of Brill Hill 3⁄4 of a mile (1.2 km) from the hilltop town of Brill itself". Is there any reason not use decimals miles too? Note that I am OK with "a total of 105 1⁄2 passenger fares" as there is no decimal following it to make it look incongrous.
      • It's just the way {{convert}} outputs; at present, it converts fractional imperial distances into decimal metric distances. The fractions are correct in this context; British railways distances are always expressed as fractions, rather than as decimals. (Technically, they ought to be given in chains, but I've avoided those as so few non-specialists know what they mean.) – iridescent 17:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nicely done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • PS The iamges are all fine - there is one fair use image, which is nicely justified, and the rest are free for use here. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 22:43, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:23, 9 September 2010 [69].

Suillus brevipes

Nominator(s): Sasata (talk) 04:56, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Suillus brevipes is a primarily North American bolete mushroom that has had its global distribution greatly expanded by the activity of man—hitching on the roots of pine trees headed for exotic plantations. Despite its sliminess, the mushroom is considered a decent edible, and Grizzly bears like it too. Thanks for reading the latest installment courtesy of the kingdom Fungi. (A WikiCup nom). Sasata (talk) 04:56, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: comments largely addressed; the usual good work. Ucucha 19:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Part of it. :-) Could you also link to whatever the current name for the senior homonym is?
  • "Like many species of the genus Suillus, S. brevipes is edible, and considered choice by some."—does this mean many species of Suillus are considered choice by some, or only S. brevipes?
  • "Linoleic acid is a member of the group of essential fatty acids called omega-6 fatty acids that are an essential dietary requirement for all mammals."—this is uncited, and according to our article, not all omega-6 FAs are essential, only linoleic acid.
  • Suillus granulatus is differentiated from S. albidipes by not having a cottony roll of velar tissue (derived from a partial veil) at the margin when young."—I guess the granulatus should be brevipes.
  • The lead says all occurrences outside North America are introduced, but the body does not say that explicitly.
  • Some inconsistency in publisher locations: for one Berkeley, you give the state, but not for another. Wallingford should probably have a state added.

I'll take a read through, though I'm inexplicably tired, so it may not be the most insightful review.

  • "The pores are pale yellow when young, round, 1–2 mm wide, and do not change color when bruised"- What are they like when they aren't young?
  • "glandular dots"- why italics?
  • "material at base" At the base, presumably?
  • "It is typically recommended to remove the slimy cap" Awkward
  • In "similar species", why are some species referred to as "Suillius", while others are referred to as "S."?
  • "S. pallidiceps is distinguished its pale yellow cap color;" by?
  • "ectomycorrhizae" Link or explanation?
  • "in percent abundance" Sorry, what does that mean?
  • "A common, and sometimes abundant mushroom," Comma after "abundant"?
  • "adventitiously" Is that a technical term? Was the introduction deliberate? Why/how did they do it?
  • "it has also been collected in Taiwan." What, in the wild? Or introduced again? Some context would be good.
  • My biggest gripe is actually the lead. It's not a massively long article, but I feel it should have at least two paragraphs, but I also get the impression the lead isn't actually as well written as the rest of the article. I know I've done the same thing. You have repetition (fungus, cap) and it seems to jump from one thing to another (which I appreciate leads have to, but I hope you understand what I'm saying)
  • The slimyness of the cap isn't actually discussed anywhere, as far as I can see. What is the slime?

Not the most exciting mushroom, but, as usual, a fine article. I'd be happy to support once you've fixed up these bits and bobs. J Milburn (talk) 22:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support, concerns dealt with well. J Milburn (talk) 21:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:23, 9 September 2010 [70].

Battle of Gonzales

Nominator(s): Karanacs (talk) 15:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This "battle" was fought over a cannon "good for little more than starting horse races". One side took time out from firing their weapons to eat watermelon. The other side were under orders not to fight and went home. That didn't stop the watermelon eaters from declaring victory. 175 years later, we're still arguing about what happened to the cannon. Because the battle was so tiny, it's discussed mainly in relation to the Texas Revolution as a whole, so the article relies heavily on broader scholarly works. Karanacs (talk) 15:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all four of you for taking a look at the article - and so quickly! Karanacs (talk) 20:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's an MOS rule I didn't know. I'll take care of that. Karanacs (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, in going back to look at the article I realized that this is a pretty common citation style (the APA endorses state abbreviations, and I think that is also the case for the MLA). Can you point me to the appropriate MOS page so I can check it out? Thanks! Karanacs (talk) 21:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reminder, I had missed that one. I'll see what I can do about the map next week. Karanacs (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's one of those obvious facts that I didn't see the need to cite. It can be found in any of the books. User:Karanacs 01:22, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Nicely done, though perhaps include the flag used at the battle and the mexican flag in the infobox.XavierGreen (talk) 19:54, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks. I chose not to include the flags because the Come and Take It flag was used by this group of Texans as a taunt at the end of the events, it did not necessarily represent all of Texas. At the time, Texas was still part of Mexico and there was no consensus within the region (or even among those involved in this dispute) as to whether Texas should secede. Karanacs (talk) 15:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment — In relation to 1c/2c: No journal articles have been published in the last 20 years of note according to Scholar, the material is secondary and appears to reflect the depth of Scholarship available. In relation to 2c: fn2, 20, 30, 33, 34 lack terminal full-stops in the citations (required to match other footnote citations in style). This appears to be due to a mixture of manual short citations, and automatic long citations. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the article is internally consistent - short citations with only author name, date, and page number end with a full-stop. Full citations of websites and full citations of books do not end with a full stop. Thanks for looking over the article. Karanacs (talk) 15:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment — Interesting article. However, in the lead, for the sentence "Although the soldiers neared Gonzales on September 29, colonists used a variety of excuses to keep them from the town, while secretly sending messengers to request assistance from nearby communities." The word "Although" doesn't seem quite right. "Although" means "in spite of" and the people of Gonzales weren't mounting a resistance "in spite of" the soldiers arrival, but "because of it". Again, unusual and interesting article. BashBrannigan (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I never tire of reading these famous skirmishes. Being an adopted son of Texas I do seem to recall the history books stating that the Mexican troops were driven out, but I do agree that this needs a cite to stay in the article. TomStar81 (Talk) 13:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Karanacs asked me to pop in, and to my eyes the images are all well-documented, with source, author, and date info and demonstrably public domain/free use. Passes crit. 3. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 21:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:59, 7 September 2010 [71].

Trafford Park

Nominator(s): Parrot of Doom; Malleus Fatuorum 21:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is an article on a topic at which Iridescent excels – an industrial estate. But not any old industrial estate; this was the first in the world and is still the largest in Europe. Once the ancestral home of one of the oldest aristocratic families in England, this former deer park became one of the most important engineering complexes in Britain. Unusually for an industrial estate it also included a self-contained residential area for workers' accommodation, with shops, churches, a cinema, police station, school, post office ... Like much of Britain's manufacturing base it went into decline during the 1960s and '70s, but it was regenerated in the '80s, and now contains some quite extraordinary architecture, such as the Daniel Libeskind designed Imperial War Museum North. It's a large subject to cover, and I hope you feel that we've done it justice. Malleus Fatuorum 21:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Just a couple of small nitpicks:-

  • Consistency required re book publisher locations. At present some have them, some don't.
  • Ref 78 lacks a page reference

Otherwise, all sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 23:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. All book publisher locations now removed and the missing page number added. Malleus Fatuorum 23:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment: This looks an important article, and I'll add a proper review if I can find time. Just one quickie; you refer to the "Trafford" family in the lead, and the "de Trafford" family in the text. I believe the latter is correct, but only one form should be used. Brianboulton (talk) 23:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The complication is that the family changed their name after adopting the "de" prefix following the Norman Conquest, then dropped it, then adopted it again during the 19th century (if memory serves). So what they were called depends on when they're being described. Malleus Fatuorum 23:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I went through it and I don't see any problems with most of the FA criteria. It seems comprehensive and well-written. The sources look good; I cannot detect any gaps in coverage or poor sources. I do have a question about one of the images before I would support this for FA. File:Trafford Park - E end - 1930.jpg doesn't seem to have accurate information. If the source is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago? If it was taken in 1930 they could still be alive. If that makes it PD regardless, the source information should be revised. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 02:51, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This book - Contribution to Victory. An account of some of the special work of the Metropolitan-Vickers Electrical Company Limited in the Second World War. - has an OCLC number (562499712), that I was going to add in, but then I thought there might be a reason why you haven't, is there? Excellent work. Tom (talk) 23:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick driveby comment (I'll review this one properly when I get the chance.) Even though they're not in Trafford Park do you think MUFC, LCC and/or the Trafford Centre ought to be mentioned? There are only three places 90% of the world think of when they hear the words "Old Trafford", and they're the landmarks around which peoples' mental image of the area is built; to me, it's a bit jarring to see an article on the area that doesn't mention them, even if it's just a "Trafford Park is directly opposite MUFC across the Bridgewater Canal". – iridescent 11:40, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Its a question of focus really, and the focus of this article is mainly on the 1,100 or so acres of Trafford Park - both Old Traffords and the Trafford Centre lie well outside this area. I can see the rationale for some mention of Man Utd's ground, as its on top of the railway line that serves Trafford Park, but only as a brief passing mention. IIRC the Trafford Centre was built on undeveloped arable land and IMO isn't relevant to this article, although the ongoing pace of development in that area means that view may be contentious. Parrot of Doom 13:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • We could maybe work something in. The area around Man U's ground and part of the eastern end of the park have been rebranded as Wharfside in recent years. So far as the Trafford Centre is concerned, it's built on land that the Trafford Estates Company briefly controlled through their half-ownership of Dumplington Estates Ltd, so we could mention that there ... in fact I'll do that now. The LCC though is just too far away, with no obvious connection to the park. Malleus Fatuorum 14:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • ... OK, I've added a bit, but I think that to say more would give undue weight to things that are actually outside the park, and were never in the park. Malleus Fatuorum 16:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with trivial nitpicks:
  • "At the end of the 19th century there were no public transport routes in, or running close to, Trafford Park"—obviously, "close to" is a relative term, but Eccles railway station and Weaste railway station, just north of Trafford Park, were two of the first railway stations ever built, opening with the original Liverpool and Manchester Railway in 1830, while the former Old Trafford railway station (now Trafford Bar Metrolink station), just outside the east end of Trafford Park, opened in 1849;
  • Am I completely misremembering, or did one of the abortive Manchester Olympic bids envisage building the stadium on the Trafford Park site?
  • Is the plural of "coot" really "coot", or should it be "coots"?
  • "Almost entirely surrounded by water", "island-like quality"—if Bing Maps is to be believed (and Microsoft never lies), it is an island, although that long Pomona Strand tongue to the east isn't a part of Trafford Park;
  • There's probably no source on this, but does anything say why this location was chosen for industrialisation (other than "it was available" and "it was on the Ship Canal")? There's a reason the eastern part of most cities are the slum quarter; prevailing winds mean industrial estates are almost always built to the east of population centres, and when they are built to the west there's usually a big gap between the two. (The Great and the Good tend to take a dim view of developments which will blanket their city in toxic smog.) – iridescent 21:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Replies
  • So far as I'm aware the idea was always to build the Olympic stadium in the east of the city, where the City of Manchester Stadium is now. There's a world triathlon event held at Salford Quays (most) every year though, maybe that's what you're thinking of?
  • "Coot" is what the source says. I think the term's sometimes used to refer to various swimming and diving birds, at least according to the OED it is (or was) anyway.
  • It's very nearly an island, but the Bridgewater Canal and the ship canal don't quite meet in the northeast corner of the park, near Pomona Docks.
  • I've not seen anyone speculate on why the estate was built to the west of the city rather than the east, but the geography of the ship canal probably made it inevitable, coming eastwards from Liverpool and terminating to the west of the city.
  • As for public transport, although it wasn't unheard of (actually quite normal) for people to walk 10 miles daily to and from work, I would suggest that those railway stations (and Oldfield Road station) weren't really that close - one might have to get the train (probably more expensive then than it is now) and then walk a further 3 or 4 miles to work. I wondered if there were packet services running on the Bridgewater but my experience doing the Manchester Bolton and Bury Canal article suggests that the railways eliminated those very quickly. There were packet services on the Irwell, running from Victoria Arches all the way down to Latchford and beyond, but these only lasted from about 1894 to 1910. I'd suggest that a slight rewording might be appropriate, from "no public transport" to "little public transport"? Parrot of Doom 22:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I very much doubt it, as from memory the reason that the Manchester Ship Canal had to built with locks rather than a straight cut from the sea was that Manchester Docks would otherwise have been 40 metres above the water level of the canal. Malleus Fatuorum 23:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I reviewed the images. The one I found problematic they removed. I'm not sure if you were looking for a particular person to review them but I did look at all the licenses. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the pointer...sorry I missed it the first time! Karanacs (talk) 19:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
... actually, Parrot of Doom took almost all of them himself; he didn't like the ones I'd taken. Malleus Fatuorum 20:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:34, 7 September 2010 [72].

Mesopropithecus

Nominator(s): – VisionHolder « talk » 19:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it meets the FAC criteria. I have covered all of the literature that I have found for this genus (and all 3 species). – VisionHolder « talk » 19:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

Otherwise all sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 17:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a read through, see what I can see.

Generally really nice. Not really my subject area, but looks like a great little article. A good length, a good level of detail, interesting subject matter, well written, carefully sourced. Nice work on the illustrations, too. J Milburn (talk) 00:00, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review! I'm glad you found it interested, despite not being your subject area. – VisionHolder « talk » 02:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. J Milburn (talk) 22:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • support Comment . Another excellent and informative article. One comment for now:--Egmontaz♤ talk 17:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The second paragraph of section "Distribution and ecology" seems bit redundant. I think that either all relevant information about distribution and diets should be transfered there and removed from section "Species" or remove the whole paragraph (or leave it as it is, not really a strong opinion) --Egmontaz♤ talk 15:23, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    This was one of the harder issues to deal with, and I'm glad you pointed it out. If I delete that redudant paragraph, the section would just be about distibution. There would be no "ecology" section, and all of that information would be under "Classification and phylogeny"... not the most appropriate place, but easier to keep information about each species together. Should I also split the "Species" subsection out and slightly rename it? – VisionHolder « talk » 16:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed hard. As it is, section "species" has anatomy and morphology not present in the relevant section, and more detailed information about distribution and ecology also not present in "Distribution and ecology". Do you consider keeping only etymology and a briefing in species and move everything else to respective paragraphs? Well since I wrote this, I read the article again and can now see more clearly the pattern you used, sections "Anatomy and physiology" & "Distribution and ecology" have only generic info leaving relevant specific info for "species". As it's inevitable not to mention each of the species in "ecology" for the genus (that caught my attention) it's better to leave it as it is. I am anyway happy with the article. --Egmontaz♤ talk 16:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not a problem. Every article presents its own unique challenges, and I'm always learning. Thank you for your time and comments. – VisionHolder « talk » 16:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    One more minor comment: "The dental formula of Mesopropithecus was the same as in the other indriids and sloth lemurs ...": better rephrase as "... other sloth lemur and indriids ..." as the subject is a sloth lemur. --Egmontaz♤ talk 05:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    As always, an excellent catch! Thanks. – VisionHolder « talk » 11:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I rephrased one more instance of this that I found later [73], hope it's not a problem. --Egmontaz♤ talk 20:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, no significant concerns Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:32, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:48, 7 September 2010 [74].

USS Massachusetts (BB-2)

Nominator(s): Yoenit (talk) 08:46, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I am attempting to create a featured topic about the US first battleship class. Massachusetts was the US's second "real" battleship and received neither the attention of USS Indiana (BB-1), nor the glory of USS Oregon (BB-3), making her probably most notable for her bad luck. Many thanks to everybody who reviews (or otherwise improves) the article.Yoenit (talk) 08:46, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I know nothing about MILHIST standard practices—is the redlink at 3-inch/50 caliber correct (it may be)?
Hi Iridescent, thanks for reviewing. The thinking is that "3-inch (76 mm)/50 caliber" doesn't look right to anybody; people who are familiar with guns know these as 3-inch guns, not 76 mm guns, in any country, and the "(76 mm)/55" part has to look strange to people who aren't familiar with guns, as if we're dividing 76 by 50. We're not united on how to handle this ... and if you have a good idea, please tell me ... I like to link it. We have a semi-recent change to WP:MOSNUM that says that we don't put a converted unit inside the link, on the theory that you can find the conversion if you follow the link. But not in this case, not yet. - Dank (push to talk) 20:03, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've been looking into this red link all day since our weaponry articles usually encompass multiple varieties of a single weapon; as a result, it is sometimes possible to have an article on the gun, missile, torpedo, or other weapon already on site and yet not be included as a blue link in the article on technical grounds. In this particular case, I suspect that the gun being referenced here is the 3"/50 caliber gun, specifically a Mark 2, 3, 5, 6 or 8 variant said to have been in service with the United States Navy as early 1900. This gun already has an article here, but the article we have disagrees with some of the information presented on the Massachusetts page - arguably the biggest being that the date given for the introduction of this 3"/50 gun here on Wikipedia is 1915. Before adding this to the article though you should get a second opinion since I have been known to make mistakes before on matters of this nature. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:51, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I found that article before, but thought that as it only mentioned the later models a redlink was probably better, as they are practically a different gun. I see now the article does indeed mention the early models, but completely skips over the fact that they were standard on US ships from 1900-1920. I get the idea somebody wrote an article about the later gun and somebody else put in a paragraph about the early gun without looking at the rest of the article. My teacher told me to never trust anything you read on wikipedia! Will correct the gun article later today. Yoenit (talk) 06:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "reduced commission" mean?
It is basically reserve status, which was not officially adapted until 1912. Officially in commission, but probably just moored somewhere with a skeleton crew on board. Yoenit (talk) 10:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The other battleships of the class are linked in the text and in the template at the bottom of the page. "See also" is for connected articles which are not linked elsewhere. Yoenit (talk) 10:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead says "She was intended and used for coastal defense, since her decks were not safe from high waves on the open ocean", but the description of her service history doesn't seem to bear this out—from the body text, there seem to be far more offensive operations and bombardments than defensive operations. Is this intentional, as to me (a complete outsider) it appears a bit contradictory? – iridescent 19:45, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
She was designed for coast defense, but not really used in that capacity. Will change the sentence to reflect that. Yoenit (talk) 10:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: All sources look good. The names of a couple of the co-authors need arranging properly: " Schley, Winfield S." not "Winfield S., Schley" and "Scheina, Robert L." not " Robert L., Scheina". Otherwise no issues, Brianboulton (talk) 22:07, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, done. - Dank (push to talk) 00:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support All of my issues were dealt with during the ACR.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:33, 7 September 2010 [75].

SMS Westfalen

Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk) 12:15, 14 August 2010 (UTC), - Dank (push to talk) 12:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Westfalen was one of Germany's first dreadnought battleships; the ship served the majority of World War I in the main battle fleet in the North Sea, though it did participate in expeditions into the Baltic. Last month (July) the article passed both a Good Article nomination and a joint WP:SHIPS/WP:MILHIST A-class review. It is also part of Nassau class battleships, a current Good Topic. I feel the article is close to FA standards, and the editors who review the article will help me ensure the article is of the highest quality. I look forward to working with those who take the time to examine this article. Thanks in advance. Parsecboy (talk) 12:15, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • "Hore, p. 67" isn't in the references
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:32, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • In the infobox "Boats and landing craft carried: 10" is formatted awkwardly. Not your fault of course, but perhaps move it to notes instead so it doesn't look so out of place?
    • "However, the Weser River was lower at this time of year" needs rephrasing
Not sure ... I added "before she could be moved", does that help? - Dank (push to talk) 11:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. The river itself is not lower, the water level is. If you use lower you also need something to compare it with, like "lower than normal". I adjusted the sentence to "the water level in Weser River was low at this time of year". Yoenit (talk) 11:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "fully laden" is this an obscure term or a typo? regular term I just never heard of before it seems.
    • "The first operation was conducted primarily by Rear Admiral Franz von Hipper's battlecruisers; the ships bombarded the English coastal towns of Scarborough, Hartlepool, and Whitby on 15–16 December 1914." This sentence seems to suggest Westfalen did not participate in the raid? Then why include it in the article?
    • "The first attempt on 8 August was unsuccessful, as it had taken too long to clear the Russian minefields to allow the minelayer Deutschland to lay a minefield of her own." Why would not having a minefield prevent the fleet from entering the Gulf?
PSB, I could be wrong but I think he's asking for this sentence to continue, "... her own, before ..." - Dank (push to talk) 11:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what you mean here Dank. I am not trying to get the sentence to continue, I am just curious why failing to lay a German minefield would cause a German attack on a Russian area to fail. Did they perhaps fail to clear the Russian minefield in time (as the article suggests in the paragraph below)? Yoenit (talk) 11:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PSB? - Dank (push to talk) 12:08, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After reading the battle article I understand what happened. I have changed the sentence, leaving out the part of laying own minefields as I will just get people confused (it sure happened to me). Yoenit (talk) 12:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moved. - Dank (push to talk) 11:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

support Comments have been adressed. Yoenit (talk) 15:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • A plan diagram would help to clarify the "unusual hexagonal configuration".
Parsecboy did it (that was fast). - Dank (push to talk) 12:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Links needed for destroyer and battlecruiser.
Done. - Dank (push to talk) 03:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What damaged the ship's boilers in 1918?
All Staff says is, "During the advance she suffered boiler damage that reduced her speed to 16 knots." - Dank (push to talk) 03:37, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Damn. Done. (Btw, the last time I reminded you about this, that was for the benefit of some future copyeditor :) - Dank (push to talk) 03:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What can I say? Payback is a ... ?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All appears in order. I would suggest adding a picture or two the jutland section if you can find one that details where exactly Westfalen was during the battle, otherwise I think the article meets FA-class requirements. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are some maps in Tarrant's book, but they are of course copyright, and any I could make myself would be derivative works. Unless someone has access to the original RN and German Navy records, I don't think a map that detailed is possible. This one from the USMA is probably the best option. Parsecboy (talk) 23:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  • At 00:50, Westfalen spotted HMS Broke and briefly engaged her with her secondary guns; in about 45 seconds she fired thirteen 15 cm and thirteen 8.8 cm shells before turning away - what was the result of this encounter?

Overall, well-written, complete article. Jayjg (talk) 18:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I added a note on Broke's fate, as it seemed to be too much detail for the paragraph. It's not clear what the results of Westfalen's firing were - Campbell doesn't say. Parsecboy (talk) 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have Steel & Hart or Bennett, but from HMS Broke (1914): "The effect was devastating so that within a couple of minutes 50 crew were killed and another 30 injured, disabling the guns and preventing any effective activity on deck. The helmsman was killed at the wheel, and as he died his body turned the wheel causing the ship to turn to port and ram Sparrowhawk." I don't know if you want any of that. - Dank (push to talk) 19:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a short article, and Westfalen didn't engage in much combat in its career - I would include it in the article text, rather than a note. Jayjg (talk) 20:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PSB, you've got Bennett's The Battle of Jutland, how much of that does he cover? (Should be page 138.) - Dank (push to talk) 21:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I put it back in the text and added a bit from Bennett (though he doesn't identify any of Broke's attackers). I had forgotten that I have a weird edition of TBoJ and the page numbers are for some reason different than the other editions - the account was on pages 126-127. Parsecboy (talk) 02:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for catching that, Jayjg. It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to make dumb typos like that :) Parsecboy (talk) 02:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:33, 7 September 2010 [76].

Kent, Ohio

Nominator(s): JonRidinger (talk) 15:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this again for featured article because it was previously nominated and already had quite a bit of support in promotion as well as extensive review and changes after some 6 weeks in FAC. The main oppose was a result of an image copyright question which has been completely resolved. JonRidinger (talk) 15:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, but a couple of external links have gone dead:
All of the sources related to Kent State simply needed updated links as the University once again changed the addresses of their pages. On two, I replaced them with new sources as the new athletics site does not seem to have an archive of those articles. On the PDF source (media guide), I simply removed the link because it is still a published source; it is just no longer online. The ACHRHealth site appears to be totally gone so I simply replaced it with an alternate news source. --JonRidinger (talk) 16:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; all resolved now. Ucucha 17:03, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ucucha, I suspect you mean citations, not External links? IF kentstatesports were listed four times in External links, that would be a different problem. ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:52, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. All of the links he mentioned were citation links. There are only five links total in the actual External links section, none of which are related to Kent State sports.  :) --JonRidinger (talk) 17:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) "External links" can mean different things: links that go to external sites, or links listed under "External links". I mean the former. Ucucha 17:03, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: The sources were reviewed in detail at the last FAC, and little has changed - a couple of citations added, the odd ref replaced. There is still some inconsistent formatting of retrieval dates (see, e.g., refs 1 & 2). Otherwise sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That comes from the fact that refs 1 & 2 were actually templates {{GR|2}} and {{GR|3}} so I can't format the dates the way the rest of them are because there is nothing there to edit. I replaced both of them with a source later in the article that had the same info present and in the process discovered that one of the codes was incorrect.

General comment: You need to provide a source for the present-day value of $2,000 in 1798. Your figure of $26,000 looks low; Measuringworth.com gives a 2009 equivalent of $36,000 on a purchasing power basis, and very much more ($400,000-odd) on an equivalent wage basis. I have to say, however, that I am becoming increasingly sceptical of the value of these equivalences. Money is spent today in a completely different way from 200 years ago, so these comparisons don't really enlighten us. Brianboulton (talk) 16:24, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The figure of $26,000 comes from the conversion template (Template:Inflation) it is part of (not my own calculation or any other editor's), which actually uses 1800 as the "original" year, hence the "approximately" being used. The $2,000 figure itself is sourced and I've never seen a source for the result of conversion template. If you are thinking the result of the template is inaccurate, I would definitely bring that to the attention of those that oversee that template. Also, if you feel it falls under "too much detail" I can definitely just remove the entire statement on the cost as it is already in the History of Kent, Ohio article. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a footnote template for the inflation template called {{Inflation-fn}}. It outputs the full source information used to make the conversions. Imzadi 1979 → 12:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to keep the conversion in, I suggest you cite it as advised, above. The fact that different authorities produce widely different conversions makes me all the more dubious about the value of including this information, but it's your call. Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just took it out; it's not critical to understanding the subject and isn't even the most important fact in its own sentence. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:25, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I looked at the media section, since that is what I know, and I seen one problem. WJMP is refered to as a "low-power, daytime-only station". The "low-power" part should probably be taken out as it kinda refers to Low-power broadcasting, which there is Low-power AM stations, that broadcast a couple milliwatts and cover a block or two under Part 15 of the FCC rules. It isn't uncommon to see daytime-only stations broadcasting only 1,000 watts. All else, in that section at least, looks fine.

One other area that I seen that could use some tinkering, is the infobox. You have listed that Kent residents are called Kentites, that could also be added to the infobox. Add the below... 

|population_blank1_title  = [[Demonym]]
|population_blank1        = Kentite

....that would add it to the infobox just fine. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 18:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I removed "low-power" from the sentence about WJMP. As for the demonym parameter, I'll go ahead and add it, but am not excited about it. I am fully aware that some articles use it but also know it isn't a standard on the template itself. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a necessary entry in the infobox, just something that other pages have. So that is completely up to you on that one. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 18:56, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per changes made in this FAC and changes made in the previous one, I again voice my Support for this article. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Ruhrfisch - I went through an extensive review of this in the previous FAC and supported it there. I find it meets the FAC criteria, but do have a few questions / suggestions from rereading the article, and made a few copyedits (please revert if needed).

  • Needs a ref The canal officially opened in 1840, but would only operate into the 1860s. By 1870 the canal was completely shut down.
    • I added a source but am thinking it might be in the Grismer source just before it. I am out of town so am unable to check it to make sure.
  • I would link Ohio Army National Guard in History
    • Agreed...did it
  • What is the source of the ward map? Is the original map from the city of Kent free? Is it from the Census Bureau or another free source?
    • No copyright source info is stated on the city's original map. In any case, the changes I have made (colors, road name markings, state route shields, labels, and updates of the boundaries) constitute a different work. I also have the map from the Census Bureau which is free
  • The caption Bridge of the Portage Hike and Bike Trail where it crosses State Route 261 could be simplified to something like Portage Hike and Bike Trail bridge over State Route 261
    • I like it...changed

Nicely done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks --JonRidinger (talk) 04:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Struck all but the map issue as I think an image reviewer needs to look at that. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:31, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even if that map is copyrighted (which I have a hard time believing it is since there are multiple maps of the city available) the changes made constitute a derivative work. I just don't want to see the same thing happen as did on the city seal, which effectively stalled and then killed the previous FAC. And for what? --JonRidinger (talk) 20:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here is what I would do - ask an expert image reviewer like Elcobbola or Jappalang to look at the map. If it is fine, no worries. If it is not free, pull it. EIther get OTRS permission from the city for the base map, or eventually add a new map based on a free Census map. If worse came to worse and a replacement image were needed, could you get a photo of Kent's city hall to use in place of the map? Don't let this be a dealbreaker. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I asked another editor who helped with the city seal issue, but will ask those as well. If it's going to be an issue, I'll just take it out for now and replace it later. The reason I don't want to a new map right now is that chances are I'll have to make a new one soon anyway once the census reports come out and they likely redraw the ward boundaries. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is some general agreement that data is not copyrightable (thus if a map is drawn based on precise measurements of road topologies or created from a database of numbers/co-ordinates, the lines of the map cannot be copyrighted). If the map is created because someone "thinks this is where a feature should be" or if they flourish it with artistic elements (irrelevant in this case where the base map is of bare lines), copyrights can be awarded. I would prefer a base map where it is clear that it is either public domain or based off "hard" data. You can try accessing OpenStreetMap to get Creative-Commons-licensed road maps of the region. Jappalang (talk) 05:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Generally agree with Jappalang. Data (e.g. coordinates) are not generally eligible for copyright as they are not works of original authorship. The compilation and original presentation/organization thereof, however, does generally constitute a work of authorship eligible for copyright. In this case, the uploaded version appears to be a derivative - having merely added labels and filled in color to the source image, as opposed to creating a new work based only on underlying data. Utilizing a free (PD or compatibly licensed) base map would be recommended Эlcobbola talk 15:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in that case, even though I can all but guarantee it isn't copyrighted, I'll remove it for the time being. I already have the 2010 BAS maps from the Census Bureau I can use instead, though I can also just get an OTRS ticket too. Thanks for your comments and time. --JonRidinger (talk) 20:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a new map which takes care of all the source issues (and I think looks even better). All of my issues are resolved and I reiterate my support, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - A strong article overall. Several issues to address: * The lead should be expanded with more attention to relative emphasis. Sports, media, and infrastructure, for example, are not mentioned at all. (And why is Franklin Mills bolded in the middle of the lead?)

    • Franklin Mills is bolded in the lead because it is a redirect Franklin Mills, Ohio and was the name of the town for almost 60 years (so it is mentioned in history and even some notable natives articles). I added some mention of sports, media, and education. Some of the infastructure is already mentioned as part of transportation. The rest of it is nothing significant or unique (water system, trash collection, etc.)
The lead still does not reflect the relative weight of the article. For example, why does Economy merit four paragraphs in the article and only a sentence in the lead? And I don't see the demographics reflected at all. The lead should adequately summarize the article for someone who might read not further. This one does not do that.--Nasty Housecat (talk) 05:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added a mention of the demographics that are somewhat unique to Kent (but standard for college towns). The economy mention was once larger, but a reviewer in the previous FAC (which was less than a month ago) felt that most of it was hardly unique or worth mentioning in the lead (like that retail is now a main sector of the economy "show me a town that retail isn't" was what he said). Most of what is mentioned in the early part of the economy is actually history. The main aspects of what is unique about this city's economy are definitely mentioned already in the lead (Kent State University and the Davey Tree Expert Company). The lead I initially used as a model for this was the lead of Hillsboro, Oregon. Ann Arbor, Michigan is another FA that I looked at as a model.
I don't know what you mean about Franklin Mills being a redirect. If you meant to link it, you didn't. It should not be bold. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 05:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Franklin Mills, Ohio redirects to Kent, Ohio, so it is an alternate (in this case former) name. It is very common to bold additional names of a subject whether they be nicknames, regional variations, or historical names. Cities are no different.

* In the lead: "..the village became the home of the Atlantic and Great Western Railroad maintenance shops, which led to the village being renamed Kent in 1864 after railroad owner Marvin Kent." Does not read well. Should be two sentences.

    • Reworded into two sentences

* Also in the lead: "Kent is known as "The Tree City" as the home of the Davey Tree Expert Company..." Also does not read well. Might be better as "Kent, the home of the Davey Tree Expert Company, is known as the "Tree City".

    • Reworded to "As the the home of the Davey Tree Expert Company, Kent is known as "The Tree City" while residents are referred to as "Kentites"."

* A lot of link cleanup is needed. Overlinking and other issues include: Northeast Ohio (linked twice), college town, German, White, married couples, Kent State University (twice), theater, Kent State shootings (twice), gristmill (first use not linked). There are many others.

    • This was dealt with twice in the first FAC. The guidelines from MOS (WP:REPEATLINK) specify that links can be made in the intro and usually again later in the article, as well as additional times if there is significant space between them. For instance, the links to the Kent State shootings are in the intro, the history section, and then not again until several sections later in culture. This is not in opposition to the MOS at all. Having been to articles that have too few wikilinks, it's always been frustrating when I have to go and find in the article where the term was I want to click on. Are there any instances where wikilinks are too close together (like in the same section of neighboring sections?)? I removed the link to theatre and added a link to gristmill.
I did not participate in the first FAC, but I the article is still badly overlinked. Many of the examples I gave you should not be linked at all, and in my view the repeated links are unnecessary and distracting. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 05:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I took out a few additional ones that were too close together. Having more than one of the same term when they are spread out, however, is not a case of overlinking per WP:REPEATLINK. It didn't seem inappropriate for the use of the ethnic/racial wikilinks since those actually come from the original demographics template and are commonly linked on all city demographic sections including ones that were recently passed by FAC. Since they are using terms from the Census Bureau it would make sense to link to them.
It is better. Not sure about linking "city's seal" to an image file. "Site for the school" is not an intuitive link, and the target is linked elsewhere already. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 04:12, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Went ahead and removed the link to the seal. Not sure what you mean about the target for "site for the school" being linked elsewhere as it links to Ohio State Normal College At Kent, which is the NRHP historic district for the original 5 buildings of KSU. That was done to satisfy SandyGeorgia's request of removing items from the former See also section. In any case I changed it to be piped through "Kent State Normal School" --JonRidinger (talk) 04:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The external links should be pared down per WP:EL
    • What specific ones are in violation of EL? I went through that policy multiple times when deciding which to include as well as the guidelines at WP:USCITY. Each one has a direct purpose. About the only one I could see removing is the KentOhio.net since it isn't an "official" source. In terms of providing additional relevant information, they all meet that. --JonRidinger (talk) 20:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would delete all but the official link, actually. I am not sure why the rest cannot be worked into the article as sources. I would say the same for the See also sources. My real question is why can these sources not be integrated into the article? That would be preferable. For example: Does the Kent City Manager's blog belong in an encyclopedia article? --Nasty Housecat (talk) 05:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SandyGeorgia asked the same question about See also but did not reply to my reply in the first FAC. Basically, the See also are NRHP sites in Kent. Adding them into the article would require additional information in the history section and the history section is already long enough IMO (the article even with a separate History of Kent, Ohio article is 96 kb). They both fit the MOS requirements for See also sections as they are both directly related but not worked into the article. As for the links, WP:USCITY#External links states: "A link to some of the official websites should be provided here, such as the official city government, or the convention and visitors bureau." City FA articles, including recently promoted ones, commonly have such links. As for the city manager's blog, I included it because it's not his personal blog. He posts items that are directly related to the city itself including economic development, road closures, construction updates, plans, etc. In other words, a resource for someone who wants to know further about the subject of the article. That it's done in blog format is simply the format he chose. I removed the KentOhio.net and the Historical Society links. Since there is a History of Kent, Ohio article, the historical society can be linked there appropriately. The remaining links are appropriate in what I understand from both the guidelines for city articles and WP:EL. Also, for your reference here is the link to the first FAC, which happened not even a month ago. --JonRidinger (talk) 19:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you want a differnet model of integrating the NRHP sites into the text of the article, see Lock Haven, Pennsylvania, which is an FA; the city has three NRHP sites and each has a sentence or so in the cultural section. Just a thought (not an actionable request). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:25, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the Lock Haven article and incorporated the NRHP sites into the Culture section and thus removed the See also section here. It added to the paragraph about the museums in Kent and I included a picture. If you think it should be its own paragraph, please feel free to break it off. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is better, but still have to question the blog. I'm thinking of WP:ELNO #11. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 04:12, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think ELNO 11 would apply if the blog were purely personal, but I see it functioning as an official website of the city manager as opposed to the personal blog of Dave Ruller as I explained above, so it falls under giving the reader additional, relevant information. I think WP:ELYES #3 and WP:ELOFFICIAL #1 both apply here. If it were not in the blog format I think there wouldn't be any question. This is the explanation for the blog from the city of Kent's website [77], which seems to imply that it isn't his personal blog like for sharing family events and photos; it's purpose is to get official information out to residents. The city's Economic Development department website also has a link to "Kent 360" (the city manager's blog) as a resource. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is a nit, I know, but what exactly is encyclopedic about "Big Yellow Taxi Safety", a "Season Ending Movie", or the move of an old trailer to a park somewhere? It is not even the City's blog. It is a personal blog. And it does not merit a mention in an FA. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 05:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Nasty Housecat (talk) 18:53, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I completely and respectfully disagree. A personal blog that would be inappropriate would be done with family photos, a daily log, personal events, etc., basically lots of information that is completely irrelevant to the subject. It's personal in that he (and only he) writes the main content (the posts), but does so as a qualified professional (i.e. a reliable source) and not simply as a fan (like me!). In looking at this site, the blog itself is a large element of it, but all of it (posts included) is relevant to the city, including development, ordinances, and policy. For instance, "Big yellow taxi safety" explains the city's new taxi regulations, with a link to them. Not personal. "Season Ending Movie" is simply promoting a city-sponsored event, which is part of his job as manager (to promote the city), and no different than the city posting it in their "news" section. Not personal. Even the mention of the trailer was part of the several posts he has done regarding downtown development. Not personal. Again, if he used a different format I don't think anyone would even blink, but we see "blog" and immediately throw the blinders on and assume it's some sort of irrelevant personal blog. Simply being "not encyclopedic" is not a reason to exclude a relevant link. Most websites aren't encyclopedic. Look at the links at the top of the page: all relevant to the city itself, none to his personal life. In other words, this is a relevant resource to anyone who wants to learn more about the article's subject, Kent. The fact the city's website directs traffic there is another key element. Not only the links I provided, but here as well. All posts are from the city manager and his qualifications can be found here (which is incidentally also the only notable mention of his personal life on the entire site). Remember the basic point of EL: "External links in an article can be helpful to the reader, but they should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article." There is nothing on Kent360.com that is not directly relevant to the article. --JonRidinger (talk) 06:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have looked at the link in question and since it is from an official City of Kent employee and is operated by the City of Kent, it is an official forum of that City to the citizens of the City, so technically, it isn't a blog. It is essentially a news site updated on blogging software that is put into the website. The rest of the site is information not of "blog" or "news" content, but information content like city finances, the economy of the city, city services, city projects, etc. Plus it links to other city sites (like the main City site). I feel this site is not a blog and under WP:EL is allowed. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As asked, I also looked at each EL and re-read WP:EL. There are only three ELs, which is a reasonable number. The official city website is required by WP:EL. The Chamber of Commerce site is also fine. I feel that the kent360 link also meets the WP:EL guidelines, specifically Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy. I looked at each entry on the home page of the website and they were each about some aspect of the city, but at a level of detail greater than needed for an article on the city. If someone wants an idea of some of the issues facing the city, they would get a good idea from this website. The website has no ads, it is not about the author's personal life, nor is there much (if any) of his opinions. If there were an article or mention in another article about one of its topics, I would accept use of this website as a reference (a WP:RS) but here it is acceptable as an EL. My only concern is that if the city manager leaves his job the site will no longer be valid. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input. In the case of him leaving his job (which is entirely possible for a small town city manager), I would definitely remove it if it were not maintained by the next manager. But honestly, the EL's on most articles have to be checked periodically because of a change of url or other problems and changes. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I supported last time, and it has improved since then. I'd still like to see a little about religious beliefs/institutions. Jayjg (talk) 01:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I wrote a religion section using available sources, but there are no specific numbers indicating actual percentages of people who go/don't go to a particular religious service or identify with a movement. The Glenmary Study is actually county-level data so I can't really use it in this article. What it turned into is a list and there really isn't anything notable about the various religious groups in the city. Have a look at what I put together and see what you think. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would make a good addition to the article. Jayjg (talk) 04:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - meets FA criteria, well done. Dincher (talk) 20:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:33, 7 September 2010 [78].

Ian Meckiff

Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 03:40, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Meckiff is a retired Australian cricketer from the 1950s and 1960s. He was a fast bowler, and there were persistent allegations that his bowling technique was illegal (throwing (cricket)) in a similar way to racewalkers having two feet off the ground, bent knees and so forth. This caused rather a diplomatic incident as in those days umpires were not from neutral countries/clubs, but were always provided by the hosts, and it was regarded as rather undiplomatic for a host to sanction a visiting player, and difficult for a host umpire to handicap his own team. So there was a lot of maneuvring of alterations to the throwing law and parochial media wars and allegations of cheating. Finally in 1963, he was brought back into the Australian team after strong form for his state side Victoria, and was immediately sanctioned by Australian umpire Col Egar in the first 5 (and only) minutes of his performance, and then he retired. This provoked death threats against the umpire and angry crowd demonstrations, as well as conspiracy allegations, as the chief selector of the Australian team Don Bradman had privately told others of his suspicions that Meckiff was illegal, but picked him in the team anyway. Soon there was a great hullabaloo in the press over whether he was guilty and whether he was a scapegoat in a "public execution" by the umpire to prove that Australia was serious about stopping illegal bowling actions. This article was kindly copyedited by Brianboulton. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 03:40, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Ref 47: Why is the Hopps book & citations not formatted like the other books?
  • Ref 71: Fiddian is not defined
  • Ref 103: Why is the Tibballs book & citations not formatted like the other books?

Otherwise sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:46, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Given the amount of detail in this article and comment on his performances, is it necessary to go into such detail about the early matches in his career? It detracts a little from the flow in my view.
I pruned the not so important batting bits. The debut is described a bit, as are the showpiece matches: the tie against NSW and the sselection trial, which are important YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It isn't obvious from the early career section why he made such an impression that he was picked for a semi-representative side and a representative tour. Is there anything that could be added to explain this in terms other than figures? If it doesn't exist, fine, but an average of 23 in a first season doesn't account for such an early pick usually. Selectorial desperation?
Well they decided that Lindwall was over the hill, Miller retired, Archer's knee went completely, and Crawford's wife left him and he played only one match for the season. Nothing was said explicitly in detail about every newbie, the newspapers were shorter in those days, but three of the incumbents were totally unavailable, he also did well against NSW and they were the strongest, so maybe that was weighted more YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Under some pressure": Could this be clarified? From others or himself? Because he was a controversial pick or because of the selectors' policy?
The selectors' new wave YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but Meckiff was impressive, taking 5/125 in the hosts' first innings": Does this need a ref?
changed YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning that Johnny Wardle had just been sacked by Yorkshire, otherwise he would have been on the tour himself.
No, unless one thinks it was supposed to have made him more bitter; he was also being ghosted and told to troll, more or less YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Former England spinner Ian Peebles asserted that the Victorian threw "the greater number of balls they deliver"" Does the quote ("they") refer to more than one bowler?
Yes. done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would the sections on English and Australian press reaction be better combined rather than split by the 3rd and 5th Test parts?
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Meckiff reported that from the Melbourne Test onwards, his son was verbally abused by classmates, while his parents were persistently told that their son bowled illegally." This sentence is slightly confusing due to the use of "son" twice to mean two different people.
tweaked YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning Tony Lock's dubious action as well, given the controversy at the time over him? And he had to alter his action.

More to follow. --Sarastro1 (talk) 08:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

  • "Over the next two years, sceptics and sporting opponents mostly regarded his action as fair, and said so in public." Any examples?
Unfortunately no, per the same reasoning below about his new action being irrelevant YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although you have linked "called", I'm not sure anyone reading it who is unfamiliar would understand, particularly as "called" is used in other contexts.
elaborated YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He then missed the drawn Third Test in Karach" Is there a known reason?
Well he completed the previous match's bowling, and Lindwall was swapped in per the scorecard, but the newspaper archive's daily reports of that Test didn't even mention the swap at all, and on its very short match eve preview said that Australia's XI was being finalised, but did not mention that Meckiff was injured. Maybe he was dropped as his first two Tests were ordinary, maybe be got sick or injured on the morning, as many got sick on that tour YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC) [reply]
  • "...as Benaud's men..." Worth mentioning at the start of this section that Benaud was still captain? Or too fussy?
I don't think we need to bother YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Meckiff returned to Australia in time to play his only Sheffield Shield match for the 1959–60 season, taking the only ten-wicket match haul of his career." Too many onlys?
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Benaud fell on the second ball of the final over attempting a hook" Reads a bit like he fell over playing the shot!
done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Critics claimed that his new bowling action adopted in 1959–60 had made him legitimate but reduced his pace and effectiveness." Any idea who? (And something similar was said of Tony Lock)
No, Whimpress just says that the correlation/causality was given and referred to the subcontinent tour, but per above the newspaper rreports only had ten-sentence daily reports of data with no analysis :( So I don't know where his data is coming from YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nitpick: Is the section on the tied test too long, given his limited involvement in the game? Feel free to ignore this.
I don't think so, as I've gone through about 4 history books and all of them decide to give it about a triple weighting compared to other Tests. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any reaction to his being called in 62/63? Surely it created a stir. Also, any reason for change after his "clean" seasons?
Surpisingly no. I checked the main Victorian newspaper archive and it just had one sentence on both occasions, just stating it, as thought it was just a rrandom catch or six :O.... weird YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Test Match: Fantastic! I had no idea it was so dramatic. Did Benaud ever comment later in any of his millions of books?
Benaud's keeping mum about the conspiracy, and isn't saying anything except the usual PR/PC stuff that no dirty tricks were used, ie what is already in the article. Maybe they hace some secret diary/tape that will be revealed once everyone's dead YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anything about his personal life?
Unfortunately his autobiog was written when he was a very young man, so no more detail will be found except in the skinny snippets in some contemporary's autobiog that I've already scraped YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think "taking" (i.e. wickets) is a little overused, especially in the subcontinent section.
Varied YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I seem to remember Meckiff attending the Test when Muralitharan was called, and I think Wisden said he was so bothered by what happened, he had to leave. Worth adding?
My book here says that Meckiff thought the public execution was distasteful, but I also found a newspaper article that Meckiff says that hhe thinks Murali is dubious, and his views are rather complex, so I'm not sure this can be explained in a compact way and lengthening the article by 3-4 sentences, which would raise eyebrows about weight YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Great article, very interesting and engaging! I think some of the scores sections drag a little when compared to the controversial sections, but this is probably unavoidable. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: All good now. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather not as I don't think it adds anything worthwhile and just makes the page article. There are only a few books and it hardly takes anything all to just look at the list for 5 books without the need for link to the book directly within the page YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:05, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – My apologies for not coming earlier, but I've been busy here and in real life lately. I reviewed this the first time and am picking up from where I left off. Nothing major to report, just a few minor things.

  • Subcontinental tour: "Meckiff was unable to capture a wicket in the Indian second innings as Benaud's men completed an victory...". "an" → "a".S
  • Tied Test against the West Indies: "but an accurate long and throw saw him run out." I'm not the expert on cricket terms, but is "and" supposed to be in the middle of "long and throw"?
  • Reaction: A missing "he" in "Rowan later indicated that would have called the left-armer". Giants2008 (27 and counting) 13:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Many thanks again YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support (1a).

  • Just looked quickly at the top. Why is "Australia" piped/linked twice in the opening sentence? Why is it linked at all? Why is "Victoria" linked? Are readers really going to hit the link to the state of Victoria, just as they start the article? Why is "Melbourne" (an international city) linked, especially when there's a more specific link next to it (the MCG)?
  • The paragraphing looks lumpy and grey. Any opportunities to redraw the boundries? Tony (talk) 13:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC) PS I am inclined to support this, but I haven't looked in detail at the prose yet. One sentence sticks out in a random sweep:[reply]
what do you mean about the paragraphs? Too long?? YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 09:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC) Second para in lead was huge, wasn't it? Seems to be fine now. Tony (talk) 09:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "He denied ever throwing, but admitted that he may have been open to suspicion after bowling 15 to 20 overs in a day's play, as his body would begin to fall away in the delivery stride due to fatigue." It's not a direct quotation, so "fall away" is a little cryptic. fall away due to fatigue ... can it be expressed more plainly, clearly, for the readers? Could you take into consideration that it's often possible to remove "that". There another one in the first sentence in that para; although the one in the third sentence has to stay. In fact, there are tons of thats: "Meckiff reported that from the Melbourne Test onwards, his son was verbally abused by classmates; Meckiff's parents were persistently told that he bowled illegally.[58] He added that doctors believed his anxiety was contributing to stomach ailments.[58] At that time, players were not allowed to talk to the media during the season, and Meckiff was upset that he ...". Rephrasing here and there if possible? It's part of rendering a quotation- and paraphrase-intensive story smoothly. Some can be removed, others reworded, and others left as they are. Could you avoid "He added that"; same ref tag consecutively, too.
    • "Meckiff was wicketless in Australia's win in the First Test against Pakistan on a matting wicket in Dacca (now in Bangladesh). He then took three wickets in the first innings of the Second Test in Lahore,[4] including that of opposition captain Hanif Mohammad". "Then" is usually best avoided in sequential narrative; you just don't need it. There are at least two more in that para. Can you do a sweep of "then" and "that"? "that of" refers back to a plural, so it doesn't work. Tony (talk) 14:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I did a large cull of thats and thens by rewording or straight chopping YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 09:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:33, 7 September 2010 [79].

Armero tragedy

Nominator(s): ceranthor 01:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I'm now confident that it's of the featured article quality. I've been working on this heart-wrenching story for the past two months or so and found myself hooked. I feel that this article is now a fully comprehensive account of this catastrophe and helps deal justice to all the poor souls that lost their lives in the events of November 13, 1985. I received help (thank you Malleus, Avenue, and Ruslik) with the prose, and it could probably use a bit more work, but I am confident this will be an awesome feature on the main page on the eruption's 25th anniversary in November. ceranthor 01:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • As there are multiple references to Mileti et al, this should be listed with the other book sources (at present Mileti is defined in ref 18, but see 5, 7, 19, 28 and 51)
  • Villegas (refs 15 and 17) is not defined anywhere
  • Consistency is required in the use of retrieval dates. Some editors provide these for every case where the source is available online, others do not give them when the source also exists in a printed form, e.g. journal articles. One example of inconsistency here is that ref 24 has a retrieval date while 22 does not.
    • Yhere is still the odd online source without a retrieval date. I saw 49, there may be others.
  • Ref 33: As a non-print source, "CNN" should not be italicised (use "publisher=" in template). Same point with BBC in ref 37 and Fox News in ref 55.
  • Ref 48: the abbreviation "USGS" has not previously been used. Consistency required.

Otherwise, sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 10:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • General comment': The prose may need further attention. For instance, the second sentence of the lead reads: "Taking place after 69 years of quiet at the volcano, the eruption caught nearby towns completely unaware,[1] despite the fact that volcanic activity had been detected and the government had been instructed to evacuate the area.". I would say, first, that the words "Taking place", "at the volcano" and "completely" are redundant; the word "unaware" should be "unawares"; "despite the fact that" is verbose and could be written as "even though". I suggest a rewrite of the sentence as: "After 69 years of quiet the eruption caught nearby towns unawares, even though on an earlier occasion the government had been instructed to evacuate the area when vocanic activity had been detected." Brianboulton (talk) 10:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images

Other images look good. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - all of my concerns have been adequately addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:40, 2 September 2010 (UTC) ;Further comments[reply]

  • Generally you don't need citations in the lead. However, you do need them for direct quotes, especially when those quotes are not repeated later in the article
  • On a related note, why does the quote in the lead say "The volcano didn't kill 23,000 people. The government did." while later in the article it's "The volcano didn't kill 22,000 people. The government killed them."
  • Don't use contractions
  • Louisiana State University or University of Louisiana?
  • "In the 1595 eruption, ashfall from three distinct Plinian eruptions[5] preceded lahars, which claimed lives of 636 people" - grammar, and was it ashfall or lahars that killed people?
  • "allowed for the government to change its political rationality" - grammar, and what does this mean?
  • Be consistent in using "percent" vs "%"
  • "60 km per hour" - convert to mph
  • Be consistent in using "metres" vs "meters"
  • Why is Mileti not in sources? Why does its shortened citations include only one author while Martí includes both? Why does they include a date when Villegas doesn't?
  • Be consistent in whether semi-colons or commas are used to separate multiple authors
  • Ref 39 - formatting
  • Refs 44 and 45 are the same. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Should all be fixed, except that I didn't see any contractions other than those in quotes. ceranthor 15:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The lahars on the map didn't have a distinct ending point" is not in quotes, as far as I can see. There's still an uncited quote in the lead that is not repeated in the article body. I'm still not sure what you mean by "political rationality" - can you clarify? You still use both "percent" and "%", you still have both "kilometers" and "kilometres". Author formatting for ref 14 remains unclear, and be sure to use dashes for page ranges. Don't forget the accent in Martí. Sources formatting should generally be the same as similar entries in Notes. Other than these issues, my earlier concerns have been addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Blame my eyesight - I'll fix them, too. ceranthor 17:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean by the sources formatting. Political rationality refers to what they value when responding to disasters, or at least that's what I got when I read the source article. ceranthor 17:22, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I mean that entries in the list titled "Sources" should generally be formatted in the same way as similar entries in the list titled "Notes". For example, you seem to have decided to separate multiple authors with commas in "Notes"; you should thus do the same in "Sources". Nikkimaria (talk) 17:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, fixed that. ceranthor 17:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Giggenbach, Garcia, Rodriguez, Londoño, Rojas, Calvache, W.F., N., L., A., N., M.L.; Garciap, N; Londonoc, A; Rodriguezv, L; Rojasg, N; Calvachev, M" - is the first author Garcia Giggenbach or W.F. Giggenbach? Formatting remains unclear. Marti is still accentless at one point, and formatting is still slightly inconsistent between Notes and Sources - look at commas vs periods, and check formatting for journal articles. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed? ceranthor 18:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is the second author of the Giggenbach book N Garcia P or P.N. Garcia? Page numbers and doi for Villegas? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Believe it's N Garcia, P. ceranthor 23:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can't find a DOI... ceranthor 23:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
DOI: 10.1080/10106040308542276. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes as I get to them:
  • I don't know why I can't make that link work here, although it comes up independently on my browser ... do a search on "Dirección de Prevención y Atención de Desastres — DPAD — La Dirección de Prevención y Atención de Desastres – DPAD –, antes Oficina Nacional para la Atención de Desastres, fue creada en el año de 1989, mediante el Decreto – Ley 919." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was personally interested in this tragedy when it occurred and your content appears from my lay perspective to cover all bases-- just needs some cleanup. Is Awickert going to review (since he speaks Spanish)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No offense Sandy, but don't you think you should lay off Aw for a while? You depend on him waaay too much. ResMar 21:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK - thanks for the concern though :). I helped with Nevado del Ruiz, and my Spanish is decent, so I would be the natural choice to review this article. I accept! Awickert (talk) 00:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support ResMar (overall, another well written Ceranthor work)

General
Lead
  • ...even though on an earlier occasion the government had been instructed to evacuate the area when volcanic activity had been detected. Not entirely clear if earlier occasion is an earlier eruption of just prior to the tradegy event. In addition, I'm curious who instructed the government to istruct the people to evacuate?
Still an issue. Maybe you should just say "various organizations" or "geologists" or "volcanologists" ResMar 15:45, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • One person at a mass funeral in Ibague charging "The volcano didn't kill 22,000 people. The government killed them." Charging? The word would make much more sense if it and the sentance before were linked by "with". Actually, saying "charged" would fix it even better ResMar 02:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • To counter this threat, the government established a specialized office which promotes awareness of natural threats; the United States Geological Survey created the Volcano Disaster Assistance Program... Columbia suddenly becomes United States.
Should be fixed. It was a variety of groups who ordered evacuation... INGEOMINAS, the Red Cross, and Civil Defense officials. I thought that was a little too specific for the lead, though. ceranthor 02:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Background
  • Armero, located 48 kilometers (30 mi) from the Nevado del Ruiz volcano and 169 kilometers (105 mi) from Bogota, was the third largest town in Tolima Department, after Ibague and the city of Espinal. How necessary is "the city of"?
Fixed. ceranthor 02:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1985 activity
  • He further stated, however, that the map "met with strong opposition from economic interests", adding that the map was not prepared long before the eruption and that mass production within the timeframe was difficult. This sentance leaves me completely in the dark. Are you saying that they were opposed to the map because it meant that they would have to leave their grounds?
  • One of the lahars virtually erased the small town of Armero in Tolima Department, which lay in the Lagunilla River valley... Which of the lahars? Also, the whole article is centered on Armero, so "small town" and "in Tolima Department" seems unneccessary repetition of "Background" material.
I think you should remove the valley stuff. It's sufficently explained in the lead, background, and previous parts what and where Armero is. Its location would be better suited for Background. ResMar 15:45, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Martí and Ernst (2005) believe that many who survived the lahars succumbed to their injuries as they were trapped, or contracted hypothermia – though the latter is unlikely, given that survivors described the water as warm. I think "in a 2005 pulication" would be better then (2005).
The first one - it means that they were opposed to the map because it was expensive, they didn't have a lot of time, and that made it difficult to mass-produce the map. Second - Not specified which lahar, though I suspect it was one of the later ones... not sure, though. Third, fixed. ceranthor 02:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I understand now. The way its worded, I thought that farmers were in opposition to the map. You should be more specific :) ResMar 02:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query, stylistic, but wondering why you are using the last, or multiple firsts and lasts, for authors on the citation templates? The multiple parameters are unnecessary and chunk up the text something awful in edit mode, and it is much easier to just use one author parameter to list all authors in one field. Sample: {{cite journal |author=Sukhodolsky DG, Scahill L, Zhang H, ''et al.'' |title=Disruptive behavior in children with Tourette's syndrome: association with ADHD comorbidity, tic severity, and functional impairment |journal=J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry |volume=42 |issue=1 |pages=98–105 |year=2003 |month=January |pmid=12500082 |doi=10.1097/00004583-200301000-00016}} As you can see in this sample, listing first and last for each author would result in many more fields in the citation template, chunking up the text unnecessrily. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That might be my fault. The DOI tool query ran a long list of first-lasts (6, in fact), but I disregarded it at the time. Will fix. ResMar 01:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, ResMar, for saving me the work. ;) ceranthor 02:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You got free labor out of me, because while I was doing that I couldn't help but add links, publication data, standardized accessdates, and decruftify ScienceDirect urls. EditRefs is teh awesome. ResMar 02:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again. :) ceranthor 02:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What are you doing thanking me? You should be busy fixing up the article, hur hur hur ResMar 02:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody should be answering my questions. ceranthor 02:12, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Someone should be busy reviewing the other side of the bargain :P ResMar 02:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe later (yawn). ceranthor 02:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: All have been addressed

  1. "Built on top of a debris fan marked by older mudflows" By definition, a mudflow can not build a debris fan. I don't have the book that is cited (Mileti et. al, 1991), but perhaps "older lahars" would be better here. Awickert (talk) 15:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. As a more general comment on the use of "mudlfow": mudflow is mud, debris flow is all sizes of debris. Both are produced in lahars. Alas, the newspapers call nearly everything a mudflow, so this can be hard to pick apart, but the terms are self-explanatory. I changed this in the definition of "lahar" in the lede. Lahars, especially near towns, are AFAIK very often true "mudflows", however, with only the fine material remaining in the flow. Awickert (talk) 15:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, that should be fixed. ceranthor 12:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. "The thermodynamic equilibration (stationary heat energy) temperatures, corresponding to the chemical composition of the discharged gases": Chemistry has always been my weaker suit, so I'll have to ask for clarification (finding none readily on the internet): is "thermodynamic equilib. temp." the temperature at which those gases would exist in the measured concentrations if all reactions had progressed to equilibrium? If no one knows, I will look it up... the current definition here has me scratching my head. Awickert (talk) 07:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not really sure either, believe that Ruslik wrote that sentence. ceranthor 12:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I will look it up. Awickert (talk) 17:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is exactly what it is, as an estimate of temperatures inside the volcano/fumarole/whatever else. Awickert (talk) 08:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. "The eruption occurred at the same time as the 1985 Mexico City earthquake, limiting the amount of supplies that were sent between the two events.": I read through the reference for this paragraph, but can find nothing about this. I am going to reword it slightly anyway, as it is probably just a matter of slapping on the right ref. Awickert (talk) 09:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Aftermath: 1st paragraph. Could the reference go right to the text cited, instead of a general table of contents? Also, here it is written that the town was built atop mudflows, while before, the article states that it was built on debris fans. Which is it? Awickert (talk) 09:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Once these two are taken care of, I will be prepared to support. Awickert (talk) 09:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should be fixed. ceranthor 12:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is; couldn't help tweaking a couple more times myself though. Awickert (talk) 16:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. ceranthor 00:09, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments and the support. ceranthor 18:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:33, 7 September 2010 [81].

Shield nickel

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets the criteria. In a bit of a departure for me, I've written a couple of articles to improve the coverage of coins at Wikipedia, and this is the first of two or three. The Shield nickel was the first actual "nickel", struck from the same copper-nickel alloy that American nickels are today. The design had a troubled 17 year life before being replaced by the better known Liberty Head nickel. It is not a long article, but it is comprehensive. I'd like to thank Shield nickel expert Howard Spindel for the use of some of his images, and Connormah for his help in the image department as well. The article was peer reviewed before I brought it here.Wehwalt (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Shield nickel" or "Shield Nickel" is the proper name of the coin.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it is a proper name, then I don't see why both words aren't capitalized. What do your sources use? Ucucha 15:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They use "Shield nickel". If you run a book search and disregard the auction catalogs, I would say a majority of books go that way, and David Bowers, who is probably the biggest name numismatic writer alive, goes with "Shield nickel". Dab fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the fix and explanation. Ucucha 15:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - could you add some more content about varieties ? You haven't mentioned major varieties such as the 1866 double-punch (F-08) or the 1883/2 date. The proofs vary date by date in terms of the depth of the rim as well, and you might want to note that. It's a nice article, but I wouldn't support promoting it until it covers the varieties more thoroughly. Claritas § 16:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I can do that, but it may take me a day or two. I'm trying to provide a balance between being geared for the nonspecialist and going into all the varieties (and the Shield nickel has many varieties). I will add something probably by tomorrow night, please check back.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. The only one which is really crucial to have on there is 1883/2, but there are plenty of other ones which are well known enough to mention, and I myself would prefer there to be an independent section on varieties. However, you're right that the article should be more geared towards non-specialists, so I wouldn't put too much focus on it. I can't remember which reference book you're using, but this site has a cross-reference table. There are five sub-varieties, but that's probably for a different article. Claritas § 16:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have Bowers with me, and Peters at home. Those are the main comprehensive book references. I will indeed add a freestanding section on varieties and move the close 3/open 3 discussion into there. While I would say shieldnickels.net is a reliable source as it is run by Spindel, I preferred not to get too deep into it, with unquestioned RS books available.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Great. You also need to add a note explaining where the figures for proof production came from (they're all estimates based on die usage/population ?). Your Peter/Bowers numbers are slightly different to those in the Red book, so I would make it clear that they're just estimates. I'd use "c. 1100" instead of "1100+", because the latter suggests that 1100 is a definite limit, whereas if all we've got are estimates, there could be a fair few less. Claritas § 16:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Bowers discusses that, it should not be a problem. I believe the Mint started releasing the actual figures in the late 1870s, but will doublecheck.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actual mintage figures released from 1878 onwards. Claritas § 17:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Really stupid question: What were the technical difficulties that led to the design being abandoned? Is there something intrinsically more difficult about the shield design than the liberty head, such as the parallel stripes? I imagine this will be the first question to strike "non-coin" readers, given how ornate US coin designs are in comparison to most countries. – iridescent 20:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The coins struck poorly, due in part to the hard planchet, but also due to the complex design. Under pressure, it was hard for the metal to flow to fill in the details, that is why they got rid of the rays. This meant they had to strike the coins harder, and led to decreased die life. And yes, the Liberty Head design wasn't as troublesome, and I've read in Taxay that the Buffalo nickel was even easier to strike. I am not sure if the stripes played a part, I will look into it. I will add something about this, also tomorrow.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'll see what can be done.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:12, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Connormah (talk) 22:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good; no image concerns. Эlcobbola talk 02:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How is that now? I've expanded it further, but hesitate to go any longer lest it unbalance the article. Note the proof information I've added. I've also addressed Iridescent's concern, I think.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's great. I support promotion of the article in its current state. Claritas § 16:31, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for the support. It is always great to win the support of someone knowledgeable about the field.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning to support: I missed my chance to review this at PR, as it came to FAC like a rat up a drainpipe. It looks pretty good, but as usual I have some nitpicky prose issues:-

  • Lead
    • Successive sentences: "A silver half dime had been struck..." followed by "They disappeared..." Singular/plural disjunction, suggest: "Silver half dimes had been struck..." etc
    • "...the Mint was successful in introducing low-denomination coins..." Verbose? Why not "the Mint successfully introduced low-denomination coins..." (and no comma after "coins")?
  • Background and authorization
    • "in fact" in the first line looks redundant
    • I imagine "dismes" was pronounced "dimes", so saying they were originally "called" dismes makes no aural sense. Would it be better to say "originally spelt 'dismes'"?
    • For the benefit of us ignorami, could ".892 fine" and ".900 fine" be explained, perhaps in a footnote?
      • Better, but I would have preferred the information in percentage form - 89.2% and 90% are unequivocal and clear to everyone.
    • "...but more likely so that Wharton could sell more nickel." Surely such an assertion needs to be cited?
  • Design and production
    • "The crossed arrows symbolize nonaggression,..." Unless I've missed something, this is the first mention of crossed arrows, and I can't see them on any of the images, so I'm wondering where they are.
    • "Longacre proposed that the nickel be issued in aluminum". Does this mean that Longacre proposed that the nickel element be replaced by aluminum?
    • The sentence beginning "Numismatic historian Don Taxay..." is very long and could be rephrased and split.
    • in "the silver pieces continued to circulate in the West for the remainder of the 19th century, where silver or gold coins were preferred...", the word "where" refers to "the West", and the two phrases need to be brought closer together, by a slight rephrasing.
  • Replacement: "the Mint had already begun to begun to strike the shield design." Phrase repeated.

I imagine it will be the work of a few minutes to resolve these, after which I shall be happy to switch to full support. Brianboulton (talk) 21:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have made those changes. Thank you. Sorry about the haste to nominate, I see this one as a, er, pattern coin for a couple of other numismatic articles I would like to see make FA, and I was anxious to see reaction here.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. No, Dief did not appear on a coin, the Canucks have not yet run a set of Prime Minister quarters. I've seen tokens and so forth, though.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Taking all technical information on faith, as I know nothing about the topic. I can't think of any questions to ask. (Although I still don't understand how the shield design was more difficult to reproduce than the equally fiddly Seated Liberty coins, I'll take your word for it.) – iridescent 23:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks. Copper-nickel is harder than silver, which is why you have collectors looking for "full step" Jefferson nickels even today.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:33, 4 September 2010 [82].

Fridtjof Nansen

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 20:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not just a polar saga: Nansen was one of the most significant European figures of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Sportsman, scientist, explorer, diplomat, statesman, Nobel laureate – a giant of his times, a story well worth the telling. I have had some useful assistance with the article from a couple of Norwegian editors, Ruhrfisch has provided two lovely maps, Ealdgyth has photographed Fram, Elcobbola has checked out the pics. Others have given generous help at the peer review, so all in all this is a pretty good team effort, and I'm proud to be the nominator. Brianboulton (talk) 20:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; you may want to check out File:EvaNansenskiing.jpg, which I have added after the start of this FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 11:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No issues there. Эlcobbola talk 20:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again. I have added the second of Ruhrfisch's Oscar images, though it's not essential to the article and can be withdrawn if anyone thinks it intrusive. Brianboulton (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - any chance that you could add pronunciation anywhere in the article? Nothing major, I won't oppose, but it may become useful to some - I, for one have no idea how to pronounce his first name. Connormah 21:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I will need help on this, as I am unfamiliar with IPA. The English pronunciation of his first name - "Frit-yof" - is straightforward, but the Norwegian pronunciation may be different. I will pursue the issue on the talkpage. Brianboulton (talk) 12:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    ['frɪt.jɒf] (English) I think. Ucucha 12:57, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. The problem is, the name in the first line of the article is "Fridtjof Wedel-Jarlsberg Nansen" which would give an extended IPA version which I think would disrupt the first line of the article. Any thoughts on that? Brianboulton (talk) 23:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Just his common name (Fridtjof Nansen) would be okay - even just 'Fridtjof' would maybe be okay, but yeah, some outside thougts would be better to settle it. Connormah 03:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I read this through when it was at peer review, and found it very well-written, and an interesting read that held my attention to the end. I made some edits and suggestions earlier, and I'm happy to support. The only thing I would like to have seen is a longer discussion of his personal life, because it seems he was a bit of a womanizer, and this caused him problems of various kinds. It is touched on in the article, but I'd have liked to see a bit more. But this is just a preference issue. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the support and for your earlier help. On the question of Nansen's womanising, I am a little reluctant to add more. There is no evidence that his major work was ever seriously affected or impeded by his infidelities, and emphasising the few details that are available might be thought to be trivialising, or sensation-seeking. Of his supposed paramours, only Kathleen Scott is notable in her own right, and I think it proper to mention this relationship as asserted by Huntford. Brianboulton (talk) 21:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I made a fair number of comments at the peer review, which were satisfactorily addressed, I see no point in repeating them here. As usual, Brian has come up with a well written article, with this of particular importance due to Nansen's role both in Arctic exploration and international diplomacy. Deserves promotion.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the support and kind words. Brianboulton (talk) 21:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • What makes http://www.bivouac.com/default.asp a reliable source?
    • The Canadian Mountain Encyclopedia, whose website this is, is used merely to confirm that "Mount Nansen" in the Yukon exists. While extensive, the site is irritatingly anonymous, and for that reason I wouldn't use it for anything beyond simple confirmation of names. The site claims to have been operating for 15 years, and is mainly a subscription service, though basic information is given free. There are other online sources that confirm the existence of this Mount Nansen, if you think this source does not justify the use I have made of it. Brianboulton (talk) 19:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • A plain map from Google would be fine, I'd think. Or some similar gazeteer. Anonymous doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:05, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I hate Google maps; I can never find the url that takes me directly to the version of the map I want. I expect that's another example of things that I'm no good at. However, no matter; I have replaced the queried source with a map from the Government of Yukon which shows the location of the mountain, which is all I wanted. Brianboulton (talk) 22:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • For future reference, I take my URLs from the "Link" button at the top-right corner of the map's frame. Changes automatically depending on your amount of zoom, your location, and viewing mode (map, satellite, or Earth). EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 04:18, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why just "Santa Barbara" when the other obscure American cities get state too?
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I was one of the peer reviewers and thought the article ready for FAC early on. Assuming that Elcobbola's image concerns will be addressed and likewise Ealdgyth's two concerns, I'm happy to support. One quibble: would it be possible to shrink File:Nansen-aged4.jpg by two or three lines? It displaces the "Early life" subhead on my computer screen. I see that you've already used the "upright" parameter. I think there's a way to shrink the image even more, but I don't know how it's done. Finetooth (talk) 17:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The markup is "upright=x", so it could be made smaller with something like "upright=0.7" or whatever other number would resolve the displacement. Эlcobbola talk 20:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Elcobbola. Brian has solved the problem by combining two subsections, but the upright markup will come in handy in the future. Finetooth (talk) 20:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) The trouble is that the section the image is in is so short that, with this image shape, you'd have to reduce to "upright= 0.3" to get it into the section without overlap. That makes the image unacceptably small. The solution I have adopted is to combine the two subsections "Ancestry" and "Early life" to form one undivided section. Brianboulton (talk) 21:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    ...and thanks, Finetooth, for your encoragement and support. Brianboulton (talk) 21:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support, with comments:

  • Link Fram in the discussion of the vessel. The article on the expedition is linked, the page on the ship is not.
    • Linked
  • "Nansen had by now turned his back on polar exploration"-- this sounds like he rejected it (as opposed to just giving it up). Is that the intended meaning?
    • It's probably fairer to just say that he retired from polar exploration, and I have reworded accordingly.
  • The 2004 frigate was not the first ship of the Norwegian navy to be named for him. Fridtjof Nansen was a gunboat laid down in 1928 and commissioned in 1931. This vessel escaped the German occupation of Norway in May 1940 but was lost later that year off Jan Mayen.
    • Interesting; maybe that could be added to the frigate article, with appropriate sourcing.

Kablammo (talk) 13:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments and support for the article. Brianboulton (talk) 13:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While it is not a reliable source, I just found the Wikipedia article on the gunboat, HNoMS Fridtjof Nansen OPV. Perhaps the "otheruses" template at the top should be changed. Kablammo (talk) 13:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:39, 4 September 2010 [85].

Pig-faced women

Nominator(s):  – iridescent 15:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... there is currently no Featured Article which includes the sentence "Once shaved, the drunken bear would be fitted with padded artificial breasts, and dressed in women's clothing and a wig", and I hope to rectify that situation.

This is the story of how garbled half-recollections of an obscure and long-forgotten morality tale ultimately led to thousands of people who should have known better becoming convinced that human-pig chimeras were roaming the streets of major European cities. Yes, it's all true. – iridescent 15:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Brief note: I'm sure ending on a pull quote probably breaks some part of the MOS, but I think it has much more impact to end on "as he did so, the figure slowly faded away and vanished", without in any way breaking the narrative or informativeness of the article. – iridescent 15:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I believe the article now meets the criteria; another interesting read on a, well, interesting issue. Ucucha 11:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More comments:

  • "On being told by her husband that the choice was hers"—do you mean "When her husband told her that the choice was hers"?
  • The link to Volkskunde does not lead to a journal, but redirects to German folklore (the redirect is dubious; "volkskunde" means "ethnology" in Dutch and German)
  • Piping "Margaret of Henneberg" to House of Henneberg seems dubious, especially as the target doesn't mention the legend.
  • I was assuming that if I didn't, someone would just add it later, and the fictional character was presumably intended to represent a member of this family. If anyone has strong opinions, feel free to take the link out. – iridescent 16:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There is at present a report,in London"—is the unspaced comma in the original? Also: "We ourselves, unwittingly put"; "in whon", "desparate"; a spaced question mark in the letter by "M. A."
  • Fixed. The spaced question mark is in the original, but I've removed it—I've tried to keep to original spelling in quotes, but I don't think that particular one has any advantage to being kept. – iridescent 16:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd fairly certain they were American black bears. Asian black bears are more aggressive, and would have been far scarcer than American black bears in England and Ireland in this period—there was (and still is) a fairly steady trade in bears from Canada to Britain for the fur trade. – iridescent 16:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although the sources just say "black bear" or "bear", I think it's vanishingly unlikely anyone would have been importing Asian bears to England other than the occasional specimen for zoos. I can take out the link and just go with "bear", but I'd really rather keep the image; the similarity of an upright bear and a human is counter-intuitive, and the image makes it clearer. If it's kept, the U. americanus image appears to have come from here, according to its Commons page (you have to type "black bear" in the search box to bring it up). It's already used on the FL List of mammals of Florida as well as Bear itself, so I assume someone's checked out the legitimacy—it certainly appears to be a genuine federal government work. – iridescent 17:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about this as a compromise? It doesn't really matter to the reader what kind of bear it was, and the caption hopefully makes it clear that the image is of a representative bear's posture, rather than that this particular bear was used? – iridescent 17:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That looks fine to me. Asian black bears were often used in entertainment, so I don't think it is very unlikely. As for the image, I noticed that link, but I don't think a link to a homepage suffices; you'll need a link to the actual image. (And I'm sure you know that an image having been around for a while and appearing in an odd FA or FL doesn't guarantee that it is in order.) Ucucha 17:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed, I think. I've never understood PD-gov, and what is and isn't covered; I assume Elcobbola or Jappalang will shout if it's not correct. We have surprisingly few pictures of bears standing upright. – iridescent 18:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found this source (quoting The History of Doctor Steevens' Hospital, Dublin, 1720–1920 [1924] by T. Percy Kirkpatrick), which claims that the story of Steevens being pig-faced only gained currency after her death, contrary to our article's claim that it started during her lifetime. Ucucha 18:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm fairly certain that will be wrong. It's well documented that Griselda took to sitting in public view to refute the "pig" rumour, and commissioned a portrait despite her reclusiveness, specifically for that reason. – iridescent 18:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yet all those are from long after her own time; Kirkpatrick says though the story later became prevalent, there was no actual evidence that it existed during her lifetime, and none of those appear to give that evidence. (I can e-mail you the article, which in addition to the Irish text contains a number of long and interesting quotations on pig-faced people, if you wish.) Ucucha 19:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personally, I'd say that with at least seven "began in her lifetime" sources (including two university presses plus Robert Chambers) and only one "began after her lifetime", we're into WP:VNT territory. It's not down to us to decide what's true, it's to report what other people have said. – iridescent 19:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not all of these are quite explicit that the rumor arose during her lifetime, and I would view Kirkpatrick—as far as I can see, a historian who actually reviewed the issue, not a popular writer who just repeats an interesting story—as more reliable than most other sources. Ucucha 20:00, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not buying it. I could see stretching to an "although Kirkpatrick (1924) states that the rumour did not begin to circulate until after her death", but I don't see how we can rewrite a section against a pretty overwhelming consensus among sources, based on a single author writing 180 years after her death. – iridescent 20:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This seems precisely the kind of situation where people parroting each other create their own truth, even when actual historians know better. We should use the most reliable sources, not just count who says what. Kirkpatrick states explicitly that there are no records of the rumor from Steevens's lifetime, and given that he wrote a book on the hospital's history, he surely must have had some familiarity with those records. Another history doesn't even bother to mention the rumor, and neither does the (brief) DNB entry for the Steevenses. Ucucha 20:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have to look at who the "people parroting each other" are, though. When one of them is Robert Chambers—arguably the most influential Scottish historian ever—and another is Desmond Guinness, possibly the world's leading expert on 18th century Ireland, you can't just dismiss them as "not actual historians". I agree that there doesn't seem to be any mention of the rumour prior to about 1800—and there's circumstantial evidence for it not being in wide circulation, in that people like Swift don't mention it—but we have to report what sources are saying, not what we personally think is true. Does this work as a compromise? It makes it clear that when the rumour surfaced is in dispute. – iridescent 10:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. That seems reasonable enough to me, though perhaps it's good to add some additional "according to the rumour" to the sentence about her sitting on the balcony. I looked for a few more sources; this says "During the nineteenth century she became part of the folklore of Steevens', and was said to have the face of a pig."; JSTOR 30105460, on the other hand, says the belief was widespread in her lifetime; doi:10.1007/BF02957318 says that her rooms in the hospital were on the ground floor (make of that what you will; I also read in various sources that the balcony she used was near but not in the hospital, and that she would sit at a window). Although I may have underestimated the reliability of some sources, what makes me consider Kirkpatrick particularly reliable here is that he appears to be the only source who gives positive evidence that he has considered the question of when the rumor arose, and the only one who cites primary evidence. Ucucha 11:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't access the article; what exactly does it say? I'd be surprised if someone has a source for ACR; it's definitely unattributed in the original other than a printer's name, and none of the catalog entries at Worldcat give an author. Was it definitely A Certaine Relation that it says he wrote, and not one of the ballads mentioned in footnote 1? The section of the article I can see describes him as a ballad-monger, and ACR certainly isn't a ballad; it's a single huge poster-size sheet covered in densely-written prose. – iridescent 18:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • p. 457: "If one were anxious to injure Parker's reputation, one could advance strong evidence to show that he soon outdid himself by writing anonymously a prose tract called A certaine Relation of the Hog-faced Gentlewoman called Mistris Tannakin Skinker, who was borne at Wirkham." Ucucha 18:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, it doesn't seem implausible that that is the original source—it goes from a peep-show with a representation of Griselda eeting from a silver trough, to Bondeson claiming that many thought the trough had been Griselda's, to this article saying it was alleged to have been Griselda's. Ucucha 19:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now, this is an article I don't mind reading, and one I'd love to see promoted.

  • The "standard elements" section really doesn't agree with the explanation in the lead, and doesn't explicitly give dates- is that what was believed from the seventeeth century right up to the twentieth? In all those locations?
  • Aside from the single instance of the "Jewish convert" version, yes. The lead (briefly) covers the evolution of the story; "Standard element" summarizes those parts which didn't change. – iridescent 17:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did Dickens believe in pig-faced ladies, then?
  • Hard to say; he believed that the legend had been around for a long time, and wrote to that effect, but nowhere does he say if he actually believes it. (It's unlikely he did, although most of the other "prodigies" he mentions, such as the "piebald negro" and the "lobster-handed child" are verifiably genuine.) The "in every age" quote used comes from this article. He seems to have had something of a fascination with PFWs; they turn up in quite a few of his works (see [86]). – iridescent 17:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't mean to patronise, but are you sure you mean Holland? Holland and the Netherlands are not the same thing, the Netherlands are just sometimes incorrectly (or, I would call it incorrectly) referred to as Holland. To complicate things a little (and I admit I had to check our articles to get all of these), throughout this period, you could reasonably be referring to a period where the Netherlands were under Spanish rule, the Dutch Republic, the (short lived) Batavian Republic, the (equally short lived) Kingdom of Holland, a period as part of the French Empire, the United Kingdom of the Netherlands and, finally, the country we currently know as the Netherlands. I appreciate that's not what this article is about, but a little clarification would be good.
  • I mean Holland, not the Netherlands or any of its successor/predecessor states—more specifically, the Amsterdam area onl. A Certaine Relation talks of "the lands of the Hollander", not "the Netherlands", and the Dutch versions of the story all appear to be set in or around Amsterdam. – iridescent 17:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the period in question, all European prints are technically "Old master prints", whatever the printing method used. I have no intention of using the term, since 95% of readers haven't a specialist knowledge of archival jargon and understand something different by "old master"—there's too much chance they'll think Rembrandt or Hals painted her, or something along those lines. – iridescent 17:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Linking "Margaret of Henneberg" to the house is a little deceptive- I was expecting an article on the pig herself :P
  • "During Mrs Skinker's" You previously referred to her merely as "Skinker", which is probably a little more encyclopedic.
  • "Skinker" refers to Tannakin (the PFW); "Mrs Skinker" to Parnel, her mother. I didn't really want to keep writing the names in full, but can do if you think it's confusing.
  • Reworded the Skinker family in first-name terms per the MOS, although to my eyes it looks odd (in this 17th century context, it would be deeply disrespectful). I have kept a couple of occurences of "Griselda Steevens" in full even though it technically violates MOS, as I think it reads more clearly that way. – iridescent 18:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll finish the article in a little while, I have to head off for a few minutes. J Milburn (talk) 17:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, continuing to read-

  • The Griselda Steevens section, again, has some family naming stuff- refer to the MOS link above. It looks fine how you've done it, to me, but we may as well go along with the MOS.
  • Not sure about the category on pig-faced women- this is the only article in the category, and the image pages could very easily end up speedy-deleted as the images are hosted on Commons. If they should be categorised, it should probably be on Commons.
  • When the category was set up, this was going to be a series of short articles rather than one long one. I've no objection if anyone wants to delete it. I'll strongly and noisily object if anyone tries to move the images to Commons and delete the local copies. The lead image is almost certainly not PD in Commons terms; more importantly, this is the kind of article Reddit picks up, and if they move to Commons (where we can't protect them if need be), we'll be spending all day reverting pictures of friends/enemies/Sarah Palin from it. – iridescent 19:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought no; aside from that hoax, it doesn't seem to have caught on in France in the same way as in London, Dublin and Amsterdam. Not sure what others think. Feel free to add categories; I'm aware that my attitude to categorization is narrower than most people's. – iridescent 19:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you know, but that article is beautifully researched and fantastically well written. I literally laughed out loud on several occasions, yet everything included was highly relevant, and written in the right tone. It doesn't follow a very standard format, but this is hardly a standard topic! This really has the umph that it'd be nice if all featured articles had. J Milburn (talk) 18:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Although you can't see it in the history (it was cut-and-pasted from a sandbox) this actually took more time than even monstrosities like Brill Tramway (made more difficult by the fact that nobody's put A Certaine Relation online). In a neat bit of synchronicity, I've just discovered that Ulysses includes the line "Forget not Madam Grissel Steevens nor the suine scions of the house of Lambert", which brings the last few weeks back to where they began in a neat circle. – iridescent 19:07, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Nitpicks only:-

  • Bibliography: for consistency, "Hyder E. Rollins, ed" should be formatted: "Rollins, Hyder E., ed."
  • Likewise, "John Wilson"
  • Another consistency point: refs 47-49 show publisher details in parentheses, whereas 13 doesn't.

Otherwise sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 18:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed Rollins. John Wilson is the name of a publishing house, not an author. The difference in punctuation is owing to ref 13 being {{cite book}} while refs 47-49 are {{cite journal}}; any change would mean amending citation/core, which I'm not going to touch. (We have no policy, AFAIK, on the correct way to cite a chapbook.) – iridescent 19:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All sources issues resolved. Brianboulton (talk) 10:20, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Times" is the formal name, and used in citations and references, and in the first usage of the term; "the Times" is what it's generally called in normal English usage and thus how it's referred to in the body text (after an initial use of "The Times" to establish which "Times" we're talking about). A look at their website confirms that this is the usage they use as well (with "The Times" as the masthead, but "Join the Times Advisory Board" as one of the links. – iridescent 15:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. This is of course generally excellent, but just a few things:
    • There's some repetion of "originating roughly simultaneously in Holland, England, and France" in the last paragraph of Standard elements and the first paragraph of Origins.
    • "The other significant theory about the origin of the legend ...". We haven't been given any other theory, just a description of the earliest accounts of the legend.
  • The "other" theory is that given in the paragraph above as being propounded by Bondeson (you know my opinion of Bondeson generally, but as he was the doctor who supervised the modern tests on Pastrana's body, this is one area where he genuinely is the leading expert and thus I've put him first); that the PFW story evolved from earlier "woman gives birth to something unusual" stories and had no basis in fact, as opposed to Chambers' theory that there was a genuine woman with a facial disfigurement and accounts of her had been exaggerated. – iridescent 19:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Chambers speculates that the original child may have had a similar appearance to Julia Pastrana, a woman with hypertrichosis and distorted (although not pig-like) facial features, who was widely exhibited in Europe and North America from the 1850s until the 1970s." Until the 1970s? That's apparently attributed to the 1864 version of Chambers.
    • The newspaper is sometimes given as the Times instead of The Times.
    • The capitalisation of "Pig-faced" isn't always consistent, such as in "Mr F. FitzHenry claimed to have known the Pig-Faced Lady's sister" and "belief in the Pig-faced Lady of Manchester Square".
  • The link to Varahi definitely ought to stay; this is about the European tradition, and there's an entirely separate and independent Asian PFW tradition dealt with there. Penelope is there primarily to discourage people from thinking "oh, they didn't mention that", and hopefully prevent the unwelcome appearance of an "in popular culture" section; it's also likely to be what the majority of people searching for "pig-faced woman" are actually looking for. Pig Bride can go if anyone strongly objects to it; it's there for the same reason as Penelope, but is less likely to be a frequently searched term. – iridescent 00:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definitely agree re Varahi now that I've read that article further. I see where you're coming from on the other two, but somehow putting the other two in there essentially to discourage passing pop-culture mentions seems almost counterproductive; having those mentions at the very top of the article seems to me like the cure is worse than the disease. ~ mazca talk 00:16, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree to some extent about Pig Bride, but I do think Penelope ought to stay there. The point of Wikipedia articles is to be useful to readers, and most people aren't interested in early-modern English folklore—to my mind, most hits on this page are likely to come from "what was that movie where Christina Ricci had a pig's head?" searches. If it's in a "see also" section at the bottom, they'll never see it; having it at the top tips them off right away as to where they ought to be looking. (I also put a similar one at the top of Alice Ayres, which serves the same purpose.) As long as the hatnote doesn't sprawl indiscriminately, it doesn't cause any problems—nobody's going to think "I won't read this article, the hatnote runs onto a second line"—so in my mind, if it helps even a single user, in the end it's a net gain. – iridescent 00:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Makes sense to me - I see your point about the way it doesn't do any quantifiable harm to the article and is potentially beneficial. Purely an aesthetic thing I think, I might just be a person that pays more attention to hatnotes than average! ~ mazca talk 00:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • On reflection, I've removed the link to Pig Bride, as I don't think many people will be looking for it. I do think Penelope should stay; I can easily imagine someone looking up "pig faced woman" to try to find the film, and this is currently the first Wikipedia page that particular Google search brings up. – iridescent 00:47, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:39, 4 September 2010 [87].

The Author's Farce

Nominator(s): ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ♯♭ 20:00, 16 August 2010 (UTC). Ottava Rima[reply]

Third time's a charm, or something like that. Relevant info is on previous nominations. Requests for comment have been solicited and hopefully addressed. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ♯♭ 20:00, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • No citations to Ingrassia 1998 or Kinservik. If not cited sources, these should be listed as "Further reading"
  • Ref 3: "p." not "pp."
  • The references list "Fielding 1967" and "Fielding 2004". The former is an edition of the play, to which a single quote from the play is cited. That's fair enough. But the numerous citations to "Fielding 2004" are of information that does not appear to come from Fielding, but rather from the compilers of Plays Vol. I of which Thomas Lockwood is given as the editor. You also have 3 citations to "Lockwood 2004" (6, 48 and 61). Is this the same book as Plays Vol. I? If so, I suggest that as Lockwood appears to have the prime responsibility for the cited Fielding 2004 material, the form of these citations is changed to Lockwood, and the reference is listed as "Lockwood, Thomas (ed.): Henry Fielding: Plays Vol. 1 (1728–1731) etc.

Otherwise sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 11:24, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry this took so long; it's been done. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ♯♭ 17:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I read this at its first FAC, and observe many improvements. I feel the article is close to FA standard, but would like to see comments on or attention to the following:-

  • Lead
    • The lead is on the short side, not really a summary of the whole article. For instance, it says nothing about the performance history and next to nothing about the critical reception.
    • The phrase "The Author's Farce is now considered a critical success..." is slightly confusing. It begs the question: "considered by whom?" I assume the intended meaning is something like "Modern critics generally approve of the play"; if so, I think the sentence should be appropriately reworded.
  • Plot section: the opening of the second paragraph does not follow smoothly from the first. I suggest: "The puppet show functions as a play within the play. At the start..."
  • Same para: I'm not sure about "In response...". Perhaps: "Mrs Novel then claims..."
  • Themes
    • Some repetitiive wording could be avoided. Thus "the plot serves as revenge for the rejection of Fielding's previous play.[10] However, Fielding's rejection by the Theatre Royal and his being forced into minor theatres proved beneficial..." could be simplified to "the plot serves as revenge for the rejection of Fielding's previous play. by the Theatre Royal.[10] However, his being forced into minor theatres proved beneficial..." etc
    • "contain plot structures that differed" is a clash of tenses
    • Third para, first line: perhaps "reflects" rather than represents? Only a suggestion.
  • Sources
    • I'm not sure here, but "who Fielding was aware of but were not directly connected to his life" doesn't read elegantly, and I am suspicious of the grammar. I would have written it as "of whom Fielding was aware but who were not directly connected to his life", but that may be just personal preference - think about it.
    • The tenses question arises again in the second paragraph, with "he also drew" and later "Fielding drew". The discussion of the play is generally in the present tense ("There is a strong similarity...", "both plays describe..." etc)
  • Performance history
    • Is the first sentence necessary? See beginning of Themes section.
    • Some confusion: the play opened on 31 March and ran for 41 performances. In the next paragraph we have "for its run beginning on 21 April 1730". Was this second run after the first 41 performances? Then we have later reference sto a run of 32 performances in May and June. How many "runs" were there? Obviously the matter is complicated by the number of changes and stagings of individual acts, but I don't yet get a clear picture of the early performance history. Perhaps there is a tendency towards overdetailing here?
    • "as far away as Dublin" sounds POVish
    • Fielding's producing a revised version is a significant fact that ought to be mentioned in the lead.
  • Critical response: I believe the section should be written in the literary present, e.g. "Most later critics agree...", "Frederick Homes Dudden, writing in 1966, is clear..." etc.

When these are addressed I'll be happy to support. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: Most of my concerns have been addressed, largely by Malleus. I've done a few fixes myself, mainly to resolve the clashes of tense that were evident, paricularly in the later criticism paragraphs. Overall I think the article now meets the criteria and I am happy to support. Brianboulton (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. I have two slight uneases about this article, the first rather similar to the comment attributed to Emperor Joseph II after first listening to Mozart's Il Seraglio – "too many notes". The level of detail occasionally feels obsessive, and can make it difficult to see the wood for the trees. My second concern is related to the first, and is most easily seen in the Critical response section, which seems to be little more than a prose list of everything anyone has ever said about the play. From the third paragraph onwards there seems little effort to organise the comments into themes. I think this section also needs a little pruning – I'm not sure what "Harold Pagliaro, in 1998, pointed out that the play was Fielding's 'first great success'" has got to do with critical response, for instance. Also, I don't entirely understand what "Wilbur Lucius Cross, in 1918, believed the play revealed Fielding's farcical and burlesque talent and not regular drama." is saying. He believed it in 1918 but not in 1917 or 1919? What exactly does "revealed Fielding's farcical and burlesque talent and not regular drama" mean? That Fielding had no talent for regular drama, or that it's simply not evident in The Author's Farce? Or something else? Malleus Fatuorum 17:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm OK with the level of detail, although it's pretty dry. Much drier than the actual play. In the distant future, we'll have vid excerpts of a modern reconstruction of the play.

  • No hyphen after an -ly adverb.
  • "it quickly"—you could remove "it".
  • "but he is poorly advised and the work is rejected by his local theatre." Remove "he" and put a comma after "advised".
  • A not-so-nice "noun plus -ing": "It begins with the Goddess of Nonsense choosing a mate from a series of suitors along the River Styx".
  • Awkward: "The goddess eventually chooses Signior Opera, a foreign castrato opera singer, as her favourite, after he sings an aria about money." Could it be: "The goddess eventually chooses a foreign castrato opera singer as her favourite—Signior Opera—after he sings an aria about money."
  • Why not use ellipsis more? "but she is quick to forgive".
  • "The play was first noted on 18 March 1730; notices ran in the Daily Post stating that the play was in rehearsal." Should that be "1730, when the Daily Post ran ..."? Tony (talk) 01:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS I do think this one is worth polishing to promotion standard. It is definitely within reach. Please keep at it. Tony (talk) 05:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply
  • Support. I've rearranged the material in the Critical response section into what I think makes a more logical structure, and I think that Tony's prose objections have been dealt with. Some pruning has also been done to remove some (in my opinion) distracting detail, so I'm going to be the first to support this article's promotion. Malleus Fatuorum 16:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I read through the article yesterday and saw no problems that I couldn't fix myself. Ucucha 18:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:39, 4 September 2010 [88].

Saxaul Sparrow

Nominator(s): —innotata 19:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article appears to meet the featured article criteria: Perhaps the text could be improved a bit, but I've decided that more improvements can be best addressed here now—comments on writing would be especially appreciated. This is a comprehensive account of its subject, though it probably could have a bit more if I knew Russian and could get at certain works in that language. —innotata 19:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image Review

  • Comment -"It forages in trees and on the ground, feeding mostly on seeds, but also eating insects in the nest and while breeding. While it is not breeding it forms wandering flocks, but it is less social than other sparrows while breeding, often nesting in isolated pairs." I think something is wrong here.P. S. Burton (talk) 01:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Support - all my issues addressed - really good read, just a few things. Canada Hky (talk) 03:05, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the "behaviour" section "It is shy in many areas, and spends much time hidden in foliage, but it is reported to be confiding in Mongolia." --> is there a better word than "confiding" in this sentence? As is, I don't really understand what it is trying to say.
      • A small group of breeding birds in Mongolia were not shy, coming close to humans. Altered a bit.
    • Possibly a dumb question, but if Stepanyan is not yet notable enough for an article (presumably), does he really need to be WL'd?
  • Comment Support (moral or otherwise) Nothing jumps out at me WRT prose or comprehensiveness. I am a wikiproject birds editor but I'll be as impartial as possible Some minor style issues (I'd maybe not split distribution and habitat in separate sections as it leads to some repetition and choppiness, and generally put taxonomy before description but I wouldn't hold it as a deal-breaker) :) Jotting notes below: Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Females have less bold plumage.. - sounds odd to me, I was thinking of something like "more subdued plumage" (i.e. frame as positive not a negative comparative) - but not a deal-breaker.
I'm not sure this should be changed. Neither is a very good wording, but less bold seems somewhat clearer in the current context. —innotata 21:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments/questions/suggestions by Sasata (talk) 05:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "…ranging from dull grey or sandy brown" change "or" to "to"
Done. —innotata 15:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Females have less bold plumage and bills" bold in what way? Color? Shape?
Done, I think. —innotata 15:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest piping disjunct to disjunct distribution, and probably at its occurrence later in the Taxonomy section
Done. —innotata 15:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A bird of deserts, the Saxaul Sparrow favours areas with shrubs such as the saxaul, near rivers and oases." Is there a link that could be used here for saxual? This sentence slightly confused me until I realized with surety later in the article that saxual (lower case s) is also the name of a plant.
Jimfbleak linked to Haloxylon, though it is only certain species of that genus (probably more than the three mentioned in the current articles on the genus). —innotata 16:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It feeds mostly on seeds, as well as insects while breeding and in the nest." Potentially confusing construction… it eats seeds and insects it finds while breeding in its nest? Is the bird breeding or the insect breeding? Will it eat an insect in its nest if the insect in not breeding? See what I mean?
I meant as a nestling, which I've changed this to in the lead; there is not enough known to answer your questions. —innotata 16:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While it is not breeding it forms wandering flocks" Possible to replace "While it is" with the simpler "When"; another instance in the Behaviour section
Done. —innotata 16:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The tail is short at 6.3–6.95 cm" looks funny to give differing sig figs in the range… is this how the source gives the values?
The source gives values for these measurements in millimetres. —innotata 17:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "pinkish brown" -> needs hyphen
What's the problem here? —innotata 16:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
n/m, the compound modifier follows the subject and so does not need the hyphen to reduce umambiguity. Sasata (talk) 02:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Like all other sparrows, it flies swiftly and often at height." High or low heights?
What do you mean? —innotata 15:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is probably just a regional difference in English, but I don't recall having heard the expression "at height" used in this way. I not clear what meaning the phrase conveys... does the bird fly at high heights? Sasata (talk) 02:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whatever is a high height or a low height? I used "flies high", but Casliber changed this, with the editsum "avoid making it sound like it is stoned when flying...." —innotata 15:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • link coverts, buff, crown, classified
I thought these were all linked at the first mention. —innotata 15:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • what is the current taxonomical status of Zarudny's Ammopasser?
Again I don't know what you mean. It is a valid name, as far as I know. —innotata 16:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rereading the sentence, I think the problem is that in "The Saxaul Sparrow usually is classified in the genus Passer with the House Sparrow and around twenty other species,[17] although a genus Ammopasser was created for this species by Nikolai Zarudny in 1890." the subject of "created for this species" in somewhat ambiguous, and I mistakenly assumed that Saxaul Sparrow was the subject. Sasata (talk) 02:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Saxaul Sparrow was the subject; this has been clarified by Ucucha. —innotata 15:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • there's three repetitive uses of "suggest" or variations thereof in close succession in the second paragraph of Taxonomy; similarly, three consecutive sentences in the final paragraph being with "It".
  • perhaps link threatened
Not sure that's the best page to link to. Aren't conservation status, habitat destruction, etc. enough?
  • how about using the common name ladybug and linking to Coccinellidae?
Not all members of Coccinellidae are ladybugs; the article if anything uses British English. —innotata 16:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "… due to its dry habitat and its choices of nesting locations, holes in trees and earth banks." Potential ambiguity: is this a (non-serial comma) list, or are "holes in trees and earth banks" its chooses for nesting locations? If the latter, perhaps an emdash might be more appropriate than a comma after "locations".
I think that dashes should only be used for serious emphasis or drama, and hence should be absolutely minimised on Wikipedia (I also use commas too much, in a rather Victorian manner, in any context), but I can't think of anything better (this bit of text has been very hard to write). —innotata 16:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and nests have been recorded on the nests of birds of prey" does this mean the sparrow builds another nest on top of the bird of prey nest, or does it simply reuse the bird of prey nest?
It presumably builds its nest on the side of an actively used nest; I think you probably can find images of this for other species, but sources cited say "in" or "on" "the nests of birds of prey". —innotata 16:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • what is an ovular form? How about a "white ground color"?
The section eggs has been rewritten. —innotata 17:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "yellowish brown" -> hyphen
  • Thinking about info I've sometimes seen in other birds articles (and realizing that the answer may well be "unknown" to most/all):
  • how long for incubation? to fledge? Any info on development of young birds? Are they born blind and naked, when do they develop feathers, etc.
  • any data on lifespan? Parasites? Predators?
  • any observations on how it gets along with other birds with which it co-occurs?

Support Comments I've linked the saxual plant. Stepanyan is indubitably notable, why not do a short stub yourself, or alternatively tweak to link to the existing Conspectus article instead? No real concerns, but I'd like to see replies to Sasata before supporting Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stepanyan described the subspecies a long time before he wrote the Conspectus. I don't have enough information to write a biography; Shyamal may. By the way, I understand you and Sasata mean "saxaul" by "saxual". If so, I can see why Drmies made the redirect sexual sparrow. Thanks for commenting. —innotata 15:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No further concerns, changed to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Shyamal has made an article at L. S. Stepanyan. —innotata 17:43, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support, with a few small comments:

  • Like Sasata, I'm not quite sure what "at height" means.
  • I can't find the "similar song" in the lead back in the body.

Ucucha 21:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for commenting and making small edits. I've removed the "similar" from the lead. —innotata 17:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, with just one comment:
    • Any reason why fractions are used for imperial (i.e, 5 ½ inches) instead of decimals like everything else? For me, 5.5 inches is much easier to read than the tiny fraction symbol.
  • I'm not particularly experienced with animal articles, but this one certainly seems to be up to the standard of Thomasomys ucucha, a recently promoted FA I helped to review. Nice work! Parsecboy (talk) 18:31, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:39, 4 September 2010 [89].

Ambrose Rookwood

Nominator(s): Parrot of Doom 10:23, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ambrose Rookwood was one of the less important conspirators enlisted by Robert Catesby into the 1605 Gunpowder Plot, but his story deserves telling, if only to highlight how naive he was to have thought that it could ever have worked. A well-dressed, somewhat showy individual, his love of the Catholic faith was not the most important consideration for Catesby. Rather, it was his stable of fine horses, essential for the planned uprising, that proved essential to the plot. Despite declaring his love (nothing unusual) for Catesby at his arraignment in January 1606, he was regardless dragged to the scaffold, hanged, castrated, disembowelled and then chopped into bloody pieces on a freezing cold English winter morning.

So now you're feeling all warm and cozy about Stuart-era English justice, hopefully you won't subject me to the same fate... Parrot of Doom 10:23, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Are the dates New or Old Style?
they're all relative to 5 November 1605, whatever calendar that might be in.
    • Then you should probably specify that dates after 1 January are New Style, because the start of the year in England then was 25 March, not 1 January. See Old Style and New Style dates--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's a point which is made in the Gunpowder Plot article as part of the story mentions how they celebrated the new year. I don't think its relevant here, however. Parrot of Doom 18:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • The problem is that nearly all English sources prior to 1752 are going to refer to the execution as happening in January 1605, not 1606, since 1606 had not yet officially begun. Catholic sources, of course, are going to follow the Gregorian calendar and its reform of the start of the year, but not Protestant ones. I haven't really done much reading on early modern period articles on Wiki, but I suspect that many editors have glossed over this issue.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I still don't think its a problem. Not a single source I have seen (bar mention of celebrating the old new year in Gunpowder Plot) makes the distinction. The universally recognised date of the foiling of the plot is 5 November 1605, and all other dates in this article are relative to that, not 1752 or thereafter. Fair enough if I'd written "400 years ago on this date" anywhere in the article, but I haven't. Anyone wishing to research the topic from contemporary documents will have to work around the calendars themselves. For this article I don't think its necessary to mention the old/new calendars, since it has no impact on the reader's understanding of the topic. Parrot of Doom 19:52, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Titles in refs should conform to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#Composition_titles
you'll have to point out where you think a problem exists, but I don't normally change the titles of online sources.
  • Rookwood or Rokewood? I realize that spelling was a bit variable back then, but the other Gunpowder Plot articles that I looked at use Rokewood.
all sources in this article use the former.
I don't see that source, where is it? Parrot of Doom 11:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good ... well-written. Just:

  • Linking: are "Catholic" and "Protestant" obscure enough to link? Horse-breeder? Staffordshire, straight after the more specific Holbeche House? Hurdle?
  • Should "Papist" not have a small p?
  • Jesuits and Flanders linked twice? "Hanged, drawn and quartered" twice? Tony (talk) 07:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I can guarantee that if I don't link Catholic and Protestant, someone else will, and then they'll change it to Roman Catholic, or Catholic Church in England and Wales. Best to remove temptation as those links tend to attract argument :) I think its fine to link horse-breeder as its a fairly specialised activity. The source used for Papist (Fraser) capitalises the word, so I followed suit. I removed the extra links to jesuits and flanders, but I think that HD&Q is far enough away from the lead to warrant being linked twice. Parrot of Doom 09:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I missed Staffordshire, and have removed that also. I'll keep hurdle as I doubt many today will know what that is. Parrot of Doom 09:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I'm a bit surprised this one's languishing like this, as I can't see significant issues with it. The one minor thing I'd question is "Nevertheless he seems to have been left to hang for longer than the others, before being taken to the block to be castrated, disembowelled, and quartered". Unless the reader's familiar with executions, they probably won't understand that this was a mark of respect on the part of the executioner in making sure he was unconscious before his body was dismembered, rather than an additional punishment by leaving him hanging longer; it probably warrants some kind of note. – iridescent 17:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I could certainly add that but several sources on HD&Q state that after hanging, unconscious malefactors were brought back from sleepyland with a good slap and a splash of water, so I'm not sure its appropriate to speculate. I'll see if any of the Gunpowder Plot sources mention this. Parrot of Doom 18:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed it on Everard Digby, but I'm not too keen on the "biography" heading, as the whole thing is a bio, is it not? I'm not too sure on that one though so I'll leave it to someone more experienced.
    • No, you're quite right, and I've changed it accordingly.
  • I'm pretty dumb, I didn't know what a cutler was. I considered linking to cutlery, but that's a disambig.
    • In this instance its a person who makes swords. I considered linking it to Sword making but that's a horrific article, and not particularly relevant.
  • 'As such weapons were generally worn in public, it was "a potentially dangerous statement of faith"' - according to whom?
    • Haynes cites it as "PRO. Sp 14/16. ff. 27-27c", which frankly might as well be Martian to me. The quote is cited to Haynes' book, however, so if anyone needs to they can track it down.
  • Conspiracy or plot? You've referred to it as both. I think it should be consistent.
    • They're used as synonyms in these articles, normally to avoid word repetition. Contemporary sources also used both words.
  • "The modified sword, which in total probably cost Rookwood more than £20..." If you're going to mention the price, it might be useful to say what today's equivalent is.

That's all I can come up with really. Aiken ♫ 23:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. I worked with Parrot of Doom on the core Gunpowder Plot article, but I've had nothing to do with this one. I think it's an engagingly written account of the plot from the point of view of one of the lesser known conspirators, and that it fully meets the FA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 19:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with some suggestions:
  • Don't use contractions in article text
This is a matter of taste and not policy, I'm happy to use contractions where I feel they improve the flow of the article.
  • I'm not sure it makes sense to say that his role was "Uprising"...maybe "Conspirator"? Similarly, "Conviction" implies that the person was found guilty, so that entry as written seems a bit redundant
He was a conspirator, but his role was in the uprising, just as Guy Fawkes was a conspirator whose role was lighting the fuse. I'll have a look at the conviction entry, however, as that clearly isn't right.
  • "made a serious dent in the family's finances" - revise this phrasing?
What don't you like about it?
It's more a matter of personal taste, but to me the phrasing seems a bit...colourful for an encyclopedia, more like something from a novel. If you like it, you can leave it as it is
  • "Robert had sired four children, but all predeceased their father" - your cited source (at least the Wikisource version) specifies four sons, and you later mention half-sisters
Unfortunately this is just about all the information I can glean from the sources used, who understandably tend to focus on the main figures in the plot, such as Catesby, Fawkes, etc.
Well, since your source specifies sons, I would argue that to say "children" is incorrect
Fair point, I've changed it to sons. Parrot of Doom 15:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could the Coldham Hall image be moved to the start of the Enlisted section?
It was initially, I don't mind if anyone wants to move it. It's not a great image anyway.
  • Are "praying beads" the same as prayer beads? If so, perhaps a link for the non-Catholics?
Very likely, however, I don't feel qualified to make that link since the source describes them as "praying beads" in quotes.
I've tried but failed to find it. Parrot of Doom 09:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:39, 4 September 2010 [90].

Rivadavia class battleship

Nominator(s):  Ed (talk • majestic titan) 07:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC), Dank (push to talk) 21:16, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Rivadavia class did almost nothing but show the flag during their actual careers, but that isn't the interesting part (thankfully); it's what happened before they were commissioned.

First, the competition to simply build the two ships was fiercer than a lion defending her cubs. Famous shipbuilders from five major countries vied for it, and each country's government did as much as they could to assist. Eventually a dark horse, the United States' Fore River, managed to overcome a stunning amount of obstacles to win the contracts, which engendered scathing criticism from Britain and Germany. You would think this was enough drama, right? Read on.

While the ships were being built, the First World War flared up in Europe. Suddenly everyone—especially Britain and Germany—wanted to make sure that the Rivadavias went to Argentina rather than an enemy... which conflicted with Argentina's sudden desire to sell both ships.

Really intriguing story, albeit a muddled and confusing one. Hope you enjoy your read-through; as always, any and all comments are welcomed and encouraged. The article just passed a Milhist A-class review.  Ed (talk • majestic titan) 07:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just got Ed's email offering me a co-nom ... I'm going to grab it for one of these 3 articles (Moreno, Rivadavia, and the class article), might as well be this one. I bought two sources, got one ILL, and have generally checked the article against the sources and done some of the writing. - Dank (push to talk) 21:16, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The introductory sentence is clumsy.
Current: "The Rivadavia class was a two-ship group of battleships (Spanish: acorazados) etc..."
Suggested: "(The) Rivadavia was a class of battleship (Spanish: acorazados), numbering two ships, etc...."
This change gets around the awkward doubling-up of "class" and "group" which mean similar but not the same things. It avoids having to link "group" to "Ship class" (which is a most specific thing, and not just a group. The word "class" can now be linked to "Ship class" which merely qualifies what type of class.
"two-ship group" is undtidy and inadequate. "numbering two ships" is better.
NOTE: consequent change of number from "group of battleships" to singular "class of battleship".
Include "The" or not, as deemed appropriate.
Amandajm (talk) 11:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. No one says "The Iowa" (etc.) meaning "The group of 6 ships in the Iowa class"; it would be way too easy to confuse that with the Iowa. We don't usually use "group" though, it wouldn't bother me to use wording that we use in our other "class" articles. - Dank (push to talk) 11:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how to respond here. Using your suggestion would indicate to readers that they are reading ARA Rivadavia, which isn't right. I could use the word "series" (cf 1, 2), or I could omit it all together (cf 3). Would that satisfy you? I agree that it is an awkward sentence construction, but I've never really thought about it before.  Ed (talk • majestic titan) 03:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The wording that I've come to use for class articles is like this: The Océan class ironclads were a group of three wooden-hulled, armored frigates... It repeats the exact title of the article which is essential. The close conjunction of class, which should be linked, with group, isn't great, but unavoidable, I think.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Why is "Minas Geraes-class battleships" (note the hyphen) used? If this is correct, presumably the title of this article should also have a hyphen. Ucucha 11:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    See WP:SHIPS#Featured articles and search for "class". None of our FAs hyphenate this. - Dank (push to talk) 11:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've never understood that myself, actually. I was always told that "Minas Geraes-class battleships" gets the hyphen, but no one ever told me why article titles don't use it.  Ed (talk • majestic titan) 03:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm always up for a hyphen discussion. Main point: maintain low expectations for standardization and sense-making. Last year's AP Stylebook, p. 359: "Use of the hyphen is far from standardized. It is optional in most cases, a matter of taste, judgment and style sense. But the fewer hyphens the better; use them only when not using them causes confusion." Tony1 prefers no hyphen for these even in running text (last I saw at WT:MOS), and I expect "Minas Geraes-class battleships" is liable to be misread as some kind of modified "Geraes-class". There's an ongoing discussion at WT:TITLE over our policy (not guideline) on italics in article titles; let's see how that turns out, because italics would affect the hyphen, I think. - Dank (push to talk) 14:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no strong preference for either solution, but I see no reason why this article should use "Rivadavia class battleship" but "Minas Geraes-class battleships"; overall consistency may be too much to ask, but internal consistency within this article would be desirable. Ucucha 14:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm happy either way, Ed. - Dank (push to talk) 14:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've asked Maralia (talk · contribs) to comment, as she (if memory serves) was the one who explained all of that to me.  Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    As far as I'm concerned all of the class articles should have hyphens as they're all compound adjectives, which should be hyphenated, with few exceptions. But I rather like hyphens; I'm rather odd that way.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support after a thorough A-class assessment at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Rivadavia class battleship, per usual disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 13:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong link, Dank. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ♯♭ 16:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, fixed. - Dank (push to talk) 16:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Striking support; just got Ed's email offering a co-nom. - Dank (push to talk) 21:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Did some ces but "New Zealand's Evening Post was more analytical in its approach to the issue." seem's to overstep into editorial statement as teh only ref is the article itself; it appears to be placed as Wikipedia's endorsement of the punditry being more sensible; It may be but probably not for us to say that. YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 04:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, thanks for that (and the support). - Dank (push to talk) 12:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I meant "analytical" as "delved into the facts and avoided yellow journalism". Is there any better way to word it? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I removed "analytical"; see how that works, YM. - Dank (push to talk) 22:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
Who is Seward W. Livermore? With him being a red-link, it would be nice to know who he is...is he a scholar, a naval Admiral, etc? We're left with no idea.
"Historian" wouldn't be inaccurate, but Ed has the book. I added "historian" but feel free to make it more specific if you like, Ed. - Dank (push to talk) 14:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Despite a British attempt to allow the Armstrong Whitworth-Vickers team to lower their price by $570,000," Argentine Pesos and US Dollars use the same symbol. Accordingly this article shouldn't be using an unmodified/unlinked "$". (Note I picked one example of the problem here)
Should we link any ambiguous term or symbol every time it occurs in every article for the benefit of the people who don't read top to bottom? If so, we'll need to change WP:Linking, which recommends linking sparsely. - Dank (push to talk) 13:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, but each use should be US$. Being an Argentine topic, I would expect the bare $ sign to refer to the Peso. Courcelles 13:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Understood; MOSNUM is ambiguous, and either requires this or prohibits it depending on how you read it :) I've asked at WT:MOSNUM#Currencies. - Dank (push to talk) 13:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, just got an answer at WT:MOSNUM#Currencies in line with what I was expecting. MOSNUM seems not to allow what you want, but I can add a note, see if that helps. - Dank (push to talk) 02:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I tend to agree with Courcelles here, but yay for style guides. I'm fine with the note, although it could benefit from increased visibility if it was moved into the infobox... Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yay for style guides, but MOSNUM is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get, I have to check the page every few months and ask when I have questions. If we were talking about a word rather than a symbol, the general principle would be WP:UE, which is actually policy. - Dank (push to talk) 13:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"...Argentina alleged to the United States' State Department that... " Perhaps use the full name, United States Department of State to avoid that awkward 'States' State'?
Agreed, done. - Dank (push to talk) 14:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The two ships of the Rivadavia class were 594 feet 9 inches (181.28 m) overall and 585 feet (178 m) between perpendiculars." What is this? I'm 99% sure it is length.
If you click on the links provided, you can raise that to 100%. - Dank (push to talk) 13:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Same paragraph, is there a reason why the tons are written as 30,000 but the enlisted men as 1000 without the comma?
See WP:MOSNUM#Delimiting (grouping of digits). - Dank (push to talk) 13:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 23; location? Evening Post is highly ambiguous.

Courcelles 07:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, done. - Dank (push to talk) 14:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As usual, I don't agree with much of MOSNUM, or the (on-wiki or real-life) primacy of the U.S. Dollar, but what else is new? Nothing left wrong with this article. Courcelles 20:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite happy yet with the prose.

  1. Can't quite see the point of linking "seeking bids".
    Because we have an article on the subject? :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. "the United States' Fore River"—could we avoid the ungainly possessive? Either just remove the apostrophe or "the American company Fore River". Then we get United States' again in the next sentence ...
    Reworded Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. "This move shocked the European bidders, especially in Britain" ... European bidders were resident in Britain at the time?
    Removed Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Do we subject a battleship to rumours?
    The battleships' fate was subjected to rumors... I've changed it to "of". Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Is there a reason that "struck" has a Wiktionary link?
    When a ship is removed from a naval register, it is "struck" or "stricken" from it. I highly doubt that a common layman would know that, hence the link. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Check that, the link was wrong (Wikt has page titles in upper- and lower-case, apparently). See wikt:stricken. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. "Rivadavia was scrapped in Italy beginning in 1959"—so it took years? Can't you say, for example, in 1959 and 1960?
    Ship breaking takes a long time even today, and the sources I've used don't say when it was completed. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Why is Sao Paulo piped to "soaring demand"????
    There was a coffee boom in Brazil around that time, which allowed for the funding of the two dreadnoughts. It's eggy, but that's the way we did it in a previous FAC (Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Any reason "Scientific American" should be mentioned inline, when there's a ref tag a few mm to the right?
    To qualify it. Quoting it without saying who said it would make it seem like the article was promoting they were the best battleships. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  9. "American government"; normally "US administration" (or president's name administration), isn't it? Or "Washington's".
    Shortened to "American" Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Can you write "million" to avoid 18 zeros in that sentence?
    No, because I want to keep consistency through all the large numbers, ie including 10,000 and ones I wouldn't write out. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  11. "Still" is a bit informal here: "Still, since Europe was the traditional arms supplier"
    Copyedited here, but it may be more convoluted now... Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  12. "quick American diplomacy"—prompt?
    Good suggestion, added Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Suddenly a sterling conversion ... why? "Italy's tender was just $48,600 (£10,000) more".
    Whoops, I was putting all of them into notes, but I missed one. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Try to shield readers from bad English in sources, here apparently in translation from the Spanish: the body which chose the final design, said: "The reason why the United States' tender was lower than the English is that steel for construction work and armor-plating is a great deal cheaper in the United States than in England." So, do this: the body that chose the final design said the reason the American tender was lower than that of the English was that "steel for construction work and armor-plating is a great deal cheaper in the United States than in England".
    Reworded using that, thanks! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Biles quote: why start with ellipsis dots? The lower-case "i" says it, yes? After "government", put four unspaced points: "government....".
    I was always told in my college classes to start it off with an ellipsis if I was quoting from the middle of a sentence. I can change it if you would like; it's not a big deal. The four dots are done—thanks, I wasn't sure how to format it when I was copying in the quote. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  16. "They also made note of"--> "They referred to"
  17. "much cheaper than that of Britain's"—nope.
    Both addressed, the second before I came back and saw your comment. ;-) Poor word choices. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Why is "US$" linked? And MOSNUM says $ alone, unless there's some doubt. Who'd have suspected NZ dollars?
    There was something above about $ being the symbol for the Argentine peso, but we decided to take out the US$ anyway. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

etc. Tony (talk) 06:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Needs unfamiliar eyes to run through the whole thing. Tony (talk) 06:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PS Some great pics, but why so small? I boosted one from the default 220 to 240, but up to 260 would be fine for a few if they have the res. Do you really like left-siders? Also, if you have the latitude, consider placing higher rather than lower in each section (avoids white space bottom of sections in really wide windows). Tony (talk) 07:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hate left side images. :-) I placed some lower in sections to space them out, as the sections aren't equal in length. I just increased the size of some of the images as well. Thanks for the comments, Tony; they're much appreciated! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support assuming I have not done so already, and it doesn't look like I have. Interesting article, I enjoyed reading it. I did have one question though: in the section discussing reaction to the awarding of the battleships to the United States you have the line "The Times took a different tack...", but I can not help but wonder if tack was supposed to be track. Otherwise it all looks good. Well done! TomStar81 (Talk) 22:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • which paid for a massive 1904 $31,250,000 - "massive" is usually used for something physical, and appears colloquial here. Another word would likely be better.
  • came as an abrupt shock to the Argentine and Chilean navies - they weren't really a shock to the navies themselves, were they? And what is meant by "abrupt shock"? This should be re-worded to indicate more clearly that the strength of these ships vastly exceeded those in the Argentinian and Chilean navies, or perhaps that their strength shocked the navy commands or hierarchies - or both.
  • The cabinet was in favor - Which cabinet? The government at the time should be described here in a couple of words.
  • "the most up-to-date practice[s]", "a general machinery overhaul" - these quotations should probably be paraphrased, or cited if the sources are significant.
  • While both Schenia and Livermore explicitly state that the commission threw out all the bids twice,[14][20] neither makes it clear when this occurred. Livermore only goes into detail about one of these occasions, of which it is not clear if it is the second or third round.[19] - this kind of detail is valuable, it is essentially editorial comment by the article author, and is much better suited to a footnote than to the main article text. The main article should avoid discussing differences between the sources editors have chosen to use, particularly if this dispute is not itself discussed in reliable sources.
  • prompt American diplomacy granting various assurances regarding recent events between the United States and Brazil - the specifics of those "assurances" and "events" would be helpful in a footnote.
  • After Brazil sold Rio de Janeiro to the Ottoman Empire, Argentina began to actively seek a buyer for their two ships - you might want to give a bit more context here - e.g. why did Brazil sell the ship - and discuss the Argentine view that their own dreadnoughts were therefore no longer required.
  • destroyers had to be sent from Argentina to escort them home, as the Second World War had broken out during their stay. - this is unclear, why would destroyers have to be sent to escort them home? They were powerful dreadnoughts in their own right.
  • In general, have you considered using Wikipedia's inflation function to provides values in today's dollars?
    • SHIPS people generally don't, but I don't know why. I'll leave a note on User:Protonk's talk page asking about the relative merit of the figures used, he's an economist. - Dank (push to talk) 21:09, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • {{Inflation}} would give accurate conversions for this year, as the US has especially good price data (or good extrapolations) ranging pretty far back. Other countries (Russia & Italy come to mind) would not be conducive to a smooth conversion from an arbitrary point in the past to the present day and SHIPS articles outside US/UK/DE would have to convert using alternate sources. My guess is that SHIPS uses measuringworth.com in order to standardize references and presentation across their articles. On the subject of measuringworth.com, the website is supported by the Economic History Association, a serious scholarly association with a strong governing board, a few conferences, and a good (though not great) journal. I happen to be a member of the association (though not one of any consequence). They don't provide too many calculators outside of the US and the UK (China, Japan and exchange rates are included). One advantage measuringworth provides is a transparent conversion scheme. All (almost all) of their conversion pages have a short paper explaining the methodology and data sources--helpful background for a curious or adversarial reader/editor. Protonk (talk) 21:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • As all prices are given in (then-current) $US, wouldn't the inflation function work for all of them? Jayjg (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks Protonk. I don't have a preference, Jay; if we use a static figure, we could always run a bot to update the figures in future years. I have some reservations about using a template that works for some countries but not others, but I'll use it if there's consensus. - Dank (push to talk) 22:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • For the US (and especially the UK, as the inflation template simply pulls figures from measuringworth) the two are identical, with the only difference being auto-updating. Since the updating is yearly, I am inclined to view the choice between the two as a matter of preference and presentation. Since I suspect that SHIPS (like MILHIST) places a premium on standard presentation, my guess would be that a source used by the majority of their articles would be preferred, but I don't know for certain in this case. Protonk (talk) 22:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't mind using {{inflation}}, but I'm not a template guy; how do I get the current year to show up automatically in the text? (I wouldn't want to say "in current dollars", because the reader would logically assume that was "current" when I wrote it, not when they're reading it.) - Dank (push to talk) 23:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've made some of the more minor copyedits myself. Overall, a well-written and referenced article, and an interesting read. I'd like to see the issues above addressed. Jayjg (talk) 20:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:39, 4 September 2010 [93].

Honório Carneiro Leão, Marquis of Paraná

Nominator(s): Lecen (talk) 22:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC), Astynax[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is very well written and well sourced and I do believe it is worth of being raised to featured status. Kind regards to all. Lecen (talk) 22:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

—Fixed dashes, grouped citations for Gouveia, p. 276, and fixed dab for Order of the White Eagle to point to the correct article. • Astynax talk 08:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Ucucha 08:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: This seems like a very strong article, but I know virtually nothing about Brazilian history. I think you should notify appropriate noticeboards of this candidacy to try to entice comments from more knowledgable editors.

  • The infobox says he was a member of the Liberal Party from 1830 to 1834 and a Conservative from 1834 but this is not matched by the detail in the article.
  • In the lead, "conservative" is repeated twice in the same sentence and "liberalism" is described as a "conservative cause". I would find some other way of phrasing this.
  • Please see MOS:LQ and check that the article follows logical punctuation.
  • I find the claim that he came from an impoverished background implausible. His family were "a powerful clan"; his father was an officer in the army; he was raised by a colonel. Both his mother's and father's family were armigerous. This is a relatively well-to-do background at a time when the majority were living in uneducated squalor or slavery.
  • Why did the emperor abdicate?
  • Is there an easier way of phrasing: "The priest Antônio Feijó (along with Aureliano Coutinho, Carneiro Leão's former colleague at Coimbra University) planned a coup d’état in which he would assume dictatorial powers and concurrently the constitutional amendment would be passed without the approval of the National Assembly (Parliament)."
  • He was elected in 1830, and "displayed no indication" of energetic leadership or strong personality but in 1831, he averted a threat by delivering four speeches in a day, and the following year he gives "the most important speech in his entire political career." So, the statement that he displayed no dynamic leadership or strong personality is proven incorrect. I think the section: "He made a discrete start...upon Brazil's fall into anarchy during the regency period." should be rephrased along the lines of:
As a member of the opposition to Emperor Dom Pedro I's government, he made a discrete start in the Chamber of Deputies,[28] primarily focusing on bureaucratic activities such as participation in parliamentary committees.[27] However, upon Brazil's fall into anarchy during the regency period of the 1830s, the energetic leadership and strong personality for which he would later become famous became apparent.[29]" (I have kept the original reference numbers, but obviously they will change)
  • It is not clear what the "aftermath of restorationist troubles in Minas Gerais province" was.
  • It is not clear whether the Additional Act led to decentralization or was, as the article says, "a result of" it.
  • "...when they began throwing their support..": who are they? The Coimbra bloc?
  • Is "he became Brazil's de facto first prime minister" in the references cited at the end of that section? How does José Antônio da Silva Maia fit in? He is listed as the emperor's principal minister 1843–4. If this is in the references given, are there any sources that contest the claim that Paraná was the first de facto prime minister?
  • The article is almost wholly positive about Paraná, and the legacy section only quotes favourable interpretations of his life. Where are the unfavourable ones? DrKiernan (talk) 10:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, DrKiernan, thank you very much for reviewing the article. Let's answer your questions:
  1. On polical parties inconsistency in the infobox: I fixed that.
  2. The Conservatives evolved from the Coimbra bloc, composed of politicians who supported Liberalism. In fact, the Coimbra bloc was part of a loose coalition called "Liberal Party" (not to confuse with the later Liberal Party which is mentioned in the article) during Pedro I's reign. Since Carneiro Leão did not enter politics in those years, I did not mention it. Perhaps it could be changed from "he championed the conservative causes of his day, namely liberalism" to "he championed the Brazilian conservative causes of his day, namely liberalism"?
  3. I'll ask Astynax to look ponctuation issues.
  4. On Carneiro Leão's impoverished background: all sources say that. The Carneiro Leão family came from Portugal to Brazil in the 1600s and settled in three provinces: Rio de Janeiro, Minas Gerais and Bahia. His family branch probably became decadent and by the time of Carneiro Leão's birth it was poor. His father was 3rd Sergeant. You should take in account that the colonial Portuguese army was badly paid. A colonel rank did not mean a high salary. That is precisely the reason that most military officers in Imperial Brazil were also politicians and farmers. In fact, as you probably saw, Carneiro Leão himself was both a politician and a judge. Do you have a suggestion to what we should do in this case?
  5. In 1826 King João VI of Portugal died, leaving Emperor Pedro I as the new king of Portugal (as Pedro IV of Portugal). He abdicated the crown on behalf of his eldest daughter, Maria II. However, her throne was usurped by Pedro I's younger brother, Miguel I. From 1826 to 1831 Pedro I's focus was directed toward his daughter's throne. By 1831 he was tired of having to deal with both Brazil and Portugal and went to Europe to fight against his brother. He invaded Portugal with an army of 8,000 men and defeated in 1834 his brother who had an army of 80,000 men (now that is a looong story). He died in that same year at age 35 of tuberculosis (a result of the war) but left a daughter in the Portuguese throne and a son (Pedro II) in the Brazilian throne. So, you believe we should add that to Carneiro Leão's article? I could, at most, add as a footnote something like "Pedro I departed to Europe to reclaim his daughter's throne (she was Maria II, Queen of Portugal) which had been usurped by his own brother, Miguel I."
  6. On Feijó's attempt to become a dictator and pass a contitutional ammendment without the legislative process: I will ask Astynax to take a look in it.
  7. His first year as a national deputy was in 1830 and was pretty much lame. He did not make any speech nor did anything that could call attention. Only in the next year, and a couple of months after Pedro I abdicated, was that he stood up and revealed his skills. And the country only suffered from rebellions after Pedro I abdicated. I sincerely can not understand why the sentence is wrong. Could you be more clear, please?
  8. On the "aftermath of restorationist troubles in Minas Gerais province": sorry, it made more sense before, but I removed a paragraph that explained who were the restorationists. I will fix that.
  9. "Among its provisions, were the abolition of the Council of State, and establishment of a federal national structure as a result of administrative and political provincial decentralization". I changed to "and establishment of a federal national structure resulting in administrative and political provincial decentralization"
  10. Changed from "appeared when they began throwing their support" to "appeared when the Coimbra bloc (boosted with former restorationists' adhesion) began throwing their support". Better?
  11. There were several "strong" ministers in Brazilian history pre-1843 who could have been themed "de facto prime ministers" such as José Bonifácio (hero of Brazilian independence and minister from 1822 to 1823) and Bernardo Pereira Vasconcelos (from 1837 to 1839 after the Araújo Lima became regent) but it was with Carneiro Leão that the practice was firmly established. After him, there was always a de facto prime minister (but the office was only officially created in 1847). José Antônio da Silva Maia was a minor member of the Coimbra bloc. Where did you see that he was a prime minister?
  12. On Carneiro Leão's legacy: historian Aldo Janotti wrote that "One of the most seducing aspects of Historiography is given by the controvertial position to which historians usually take when they judge things and men from History. True historigraphic chains are formed and all of them contrary to each other. What one affirms that other strongly denies, turning it from a denial into its own affirmation, thus giving the opportunity to the appearence of a third position..." and ends with "In the Brazilian case, however, specially in relation to" Carneiro Leão, "it seems that the rule finds its exception. The Marquis of Paraná (1801-1856), from his contemporaries to later ones, men of the diverse ideas and tendences, he is unanimously accepted as the pinnacle of the historical evolution of the Empire." (p.11) I did not find critics to Carneiro Leão, beyond, however, the ones on his character, that is, his arrogancy, rudeness, acid tongue, etc... which are mentioned in the article. Unless I find a criticism, the article won't pass?
Again, thank you, --Lecen (talk) 12:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1. Yes, that's clearer.
2. How about removing "the conservative causes of his day, namely" so that it reads "As co-founder of the Brazilian Conservative Party,[1] he championed liberalism, ..."
3. OK.
4. Well, if all sources say that, then I can't really complain. If I were writing the article, I'd probably try to use "modest" or "humble" or something like that, but obviously you'll have to follow the sources.
5. Hmmmn. Yes, try the short footnote. I agree all the detail should be left out.
6. There's nothing wrong with the sentence per se. It's just a little long.
7. My problem with it is that expecting him to make a big splash immediately is an unrealistic expectation, and we're only talking about a 12 month quiet gap between election and fame. The way it's currently worded would indicate to me that it took him a long time to build up to his grand entry into politics, whereas actually it only took a few months.
8. Pending.
9. Thanks, it's clear to me now.
10. Yes, that's better: but I've taken out "adhesion" as it is unnecessary.
11. I saw it here: http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Brazil.html Perhaps they're confused? I see da Silva Maia was "Minister of the Empire": I'm not sure what that means. The important point is whether the claim is verifiable. As long as you can provide a reference that says he was the first, and I or anyone else cannot provide a reference to the contrary, then it's fine.
12. It should pass if it meets the criteria. If historians do universally admire him, then the article would accurately reflect established scholarship, so again it's fine.
13. One other point, I missed out earlier: in some of the succession boxes, the predecessor or successor are not known. I'd probably remove those, unless the officeholder can be identified. DrKiernan (talk) 14:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1. Done.
2. Done. Removed the word "conservative".
3. Pending.
4. Done (I changed to "humble" background).
5. Done. I added a note. However, I'll ask Astynax to change it to a true footnote similar to as can be found in the article about Pedro II of Brazil (See: Pedro II of Brazil#Explanatory notes).
6. Pending.
7. Pending.
8. Done. I just added a small bit of information regarding the restorationist movemet. Is it better?
9. Done. Just a small mistake.
10. Done. Made the sentence more clear by adding "Coimbra bloc (boosted by... etc...)
11. Minister of the Empire is the same as Minister of Interior. It doesn't mean a higher status when compared to other ministers. There are three sources to Carneiro Leão being the first de facto prime minister: "By personally selecting the cabinet members, he became Brazil's de facto first prime minister. Prior to this, the emperor had always designated the cabinet ministers. Following on this precedent, the office of prime minister would be formally instituted four years later, under the title "President of the Council of Ministers".[98][99][100]" The [98],[99] and [100] notes are the sources. Do you want me to copy them and also put them at the end of the sentence ("he became Brazil's de facto first prime minister")?
12. Ok.
13. Done. Removed. --Lecen (talk) 14:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
3. Many of the quotes are translations, and the punctuation is based upon whether the quoted phrase completes the thought, rather than absolute position in the original. I've gone over the quoted material and have adjusted a few in which I could not confirm whether the ending punctuation was part of the quote.
6. I have made two sentences of the over-long sentence regarding Feijó's coup plot. Hopefully it is easier to read.
I'll work on making a section for explanatory notes. • Astynax talk 17:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Thank you; I would have expected history to have paid more attention to his views on slavery, and to have brought him to task for owning them, but looking through the books available to me it does look as though this is not a heavily covered area in the literature. I can only find one quote from 1850 where he says the trade should be abolished because of the British pressure. I'm satisfied that this article meets the criteria, and I would also praise the speed and willingness with which comments have been addressed. . DrKiernan (talk) 08:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Great article. Having read it, I can't really find anything to comment on or complain about. Bruno Ishiai (talk) 17:54, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Comment. This is a fine article, well-researched and painstakingly written, but I think there are some outstanding issues, though I am close to supporting.
    • Prose concerns:
      • "Paraná was appointed by the national government as president of Pernambuco province to investigate and uphold a fair trial for the rebels": the problems are in "investigate and uphold a fair trial". One doesn't investigate a trial, and "uphold" isn't right either. I suspect (from reading the body of the article) that what is meant is something like "to investigate the case against the rebels and ensure that they received a fair trial". However, even that may not be accurate: was he appointed to ensure a fair trial? Or was he appointed, upon which he took it on himself to ensure it? I think the latter is the case in which case my rephrasing is not accurate either.
      • "Unexpectedly, he died in office of an unknown disease": not a very natural phrasing; typically the adverb would not be the first word in the sentence in this case.
      • "He first lived in Paracatú then moved on to Ouro Preto, which was then called Vila Rica and was capital of Minas Gerais, where he spent his childhood and adolescence": what is the antecedent of "where"? Minas Gerais or Ouro Preto? I think the latter, parentheses would do a better job than commas at avoiding the former interpretation.
        Ouro Preto is a town in the province of Minas Gerais. Do you believe we should me more clear? The article already says that Minas Gerais is a province. --Lecen (talk) 14:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        I guess I wasn't clear about this one. What I'm not clear about is this: did he spend his childhood in Minas Gerais? Or in Ouro Preto? Mike Christie (talk) 13:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        To be more clear: one could read the sentence as saying he spent his childhood in Minas Gerais, but not necessarily all in Ouro Preto. I'd suggest either "He first lived in Paracatú then moved on to Ouro Preto, which was then called Vila Rica and was capital of Minas Gerais. It was in Ouro Preto that he spent his childhood and adolescence", or "He first lived in Paracatú then moved on to Ouro Preto, which was then called Vila Rica. Ouro Preto was the capital of Minas Gerais, where he spent his childhood and adolescence", depending on which interpretation is intended (probably the former). Mike Christie (talk) 15:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed that. Is it better now? --Lecen (talk) 16:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I changed "discrete" to "discreet", thinking that was what was intended, but I think "modest" probably has the desired connotations.
      • "In concert with his colleagues, this prevented restriction of legal rights": I think this should at least be "the restriction", but "this" isn't appropriate after "in concert with his colleagues", which implies that the subject is a collective "they" -- he and his colleagues.
    • Other points:
      • A map would be helpful just to identify some key locations. Brazilian geography will not be well-known to most readers; a simple overview identifying the key provinces/captaincies/whatever is most relevant would be useful. User:Kmusser is often helpful with map requests and does good work, if you decide it would be worth adding a map. I would not oppose for the lack of a map -- this is just a suggestion.
      • "it was forbidden to hold both that position and retain a seat on the Council of State, of which he was a member by that time": membership of the Council of State sounds more important than his other roles; should we not have heard in more detail about his membership of the Council before this? And shouldn't some details at least be given at this point, if not before?
      • the "Moderate Party" is first mentioned in the paragraph on the Coimbra bloc, without identification -- are these the same as the Nativists? Similarly the "restorationists" are first mentioned here. Reading on, I think the restorationists are in fact the Nativists, but that's not at all clear.
      • In the section "Party's leader in the Chamber of Deputies" I would reorder the sequence: you have Feijó assuming office at the start of the paragraph, with the rest of the paragraph functioning as a flashback. I think this is needlessly disorienting.
      • You have some quotes directly from the historians that I think are unnecessary and could be paraphrased. I understand they are often pithy and apposite but quoting in this way should be done sparingly, and there are too many, though they are appropriate in the "Legacy" section.
      • Why did the Coimbra bloc's ascension to power mark the demise of the Moderate Party? I must be missing something here.
      • 'This group would evolve during the 1840s into the "Liberal Party"': Why is "Liberal Party" in quotes? Same question for "Courtier faction" a few sentences later.
      • "Carneiro Leão showed preference for his co-religionists when filling cabinet positions" -- this is the first mention of religion. (I assumed they were all Catholic.) What does this mean?
      • "In January 1844 the president requested the dismissal of the inspector of the Rio de Janeiro customs house": but according to the preceding paragraph the title "president" isn't adopted until four years later.
  • Incidentally, if you want to interleave your replies with mine, that's fine; I see you responded after Dr K's comments above, but it might be easier if you indented your replies in turn after my comments. Either way will work for me.

-- Mike Christie (talk) 00:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Mike, for taking your time to review the article. I mean it. I will not interleave my replies with your remarks because since there are two editors (myself and Astynax) working in this article, I want to avoid the questions and replies becoming a mess. Also, I'd like to tell you that anything related to grammar, spelling or similar ask Astynax. Anything that has to do with the subject, I'm the person! So, I will leave your remarks about grammar unanswered (if you don't mind) and leave it to Astynax.
That works. I'm going to intersperse my replies to your comments below; I hope that's OK. Then if there is more to say you can start a fresh list below, as you did for Dr. K. Mike Christie (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mike: was he appointed to ensure a fair trial? Or was he appointed, upon which he took it on himself to ensure it? I think the latter is the case in which case my rephrasing is not accurate either.
As the president of the province (that is, governor of state), Carneiro Leão was supposed to keep a close eye on the justice system to check if the rebels would get a fair trial. Is not that he had any kind of power to do anything for real.
It's much improved, but I think one more little tweak is necessary. Currently the lead implies that he was appointed to urge a fair trial; that is, that it was the intention of the appointment that he should urge it. Unless the sources specifically say that I would suggest changing it to "... investigate the matter; he urged that" which removes the implication. Mike Christie (talk) 12:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mike: "it was forbidden to hold both that position and retain a seat on the Council of State, of which he was a member by that time": membership of the Council of State sounds more important than his other roles; should we not have heard in more detail about his membership of the Council before this? And shouldn't some details at least be given at this point, if not before?"
That's because it is mentioned that he was named for a seat in the Council of State in section "Against the Liberal rebellions of 1842".
OK. I see the later explanation doesn't give a precise date, but it appears his appointment was between November 1841 and May 1842. Could we change the earlier sentence to "to which he was appointed in 1841" (or 1842 if appropriate)? Mike Christie (talk) 12:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I got it. I only mentioned the recreation of the Council of State, not the date in which he was appointed. --Lecen (talk) 13:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I was reading the book and the author is not clear on that. Certainly he was named among the 10 who were chosen as councilors to the recreated Council of State. I presume the list with the nominations was released along with the law that recreated it. Anyway, what do you propose? --Lecen (talk) 14:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then let's just leave it as it is. I've struck my comment above. Mike Christie (talk) 15:19, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mike: "the "Moderate Party" is first mentioned in the paragraph on the Coimbra bloc, without identification -- are these the same as the Nativists? Similarly the "restorationists" are first mentioned here. Reading on, I think the restorationists are in fact the Nativists, but that's not at all clear."
My mistake. The alliance between the Coimbra bloc and the Nativists was called "Moderate Party". In one of my edits I must have erased that. I added it back. Everything will make more sense now.
That resolves it. Mike Christie (talk) 12:45, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mike: "you have Feijó assuming office at the start of the paragraph, with the rest of the paragraph functioning as a flashback. I think this is needlessly disorienting."
I'll ask Astynax to take a look in it.
Mike: "You have some quotes directly from the historians that I think are unnecessary and could be paraphrased. I understand they are often pithy and apposite but quoting in this way should be done sparingly, and there are too many, though they are appropriate in the "Legacy" section."
I'll ask Astynax to take a look in it.
Now OK. Mike Christie (talk) 13:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mike: "Why did the Coimbra bloc's ascension to power mark the demise of the Moderate Party? I must be missing something here."
Also my mistake. The "Moderate Party" is the name given to the loose coalition formed by Nativists (led by the priest Feijó) and the Coimbra bloc (led by Carneiro Leão). Since I did not make that clear before, it looked weird here. The Coimbra bloc was against Feijó and his Nativists' coup in 1832. With Feijó's election as regent in 1834, the division between them only grew. In 1837 they managed to remove Feijó from office bringing the final and true split between the Coimbra bloc and the Nativists. Or in other words, the end of the Moderate Party.
OK -- the earlier clarification makes this completely clear. Mike Christie (talk) 12:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mike: "Carneiro Leão showed preference for his co-religionists when filling cabinet positions"
My mistake. I should have written "co-party members". That is, he called only members of the Conservative Party. That's nothing to do with religion. Fixed that.
OK. Mike Christie (talk) 12:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mike: "but according to the preceding paragraph the title "president" isn't adopted until four years later."
You are correct, but historians (as can be seen in the article) consider him the first de facto Brazilian Prime Minister. Although not called "president" then, we took the liberty to do that. Similar to "Byzantine Empire": the Eastern Roman Empire never called itself as such and that was a name created centurie after it disappeared. Even so, historians call it "Byzantine Empire". However, I changed it for "he".
OK. Mike Christie (talk) 13:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am very tired now and I know I left a few questions unanswered. I promise I'll do that first thing in the morning. Once gain, thank you, Mike. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 04:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: I have edited the article to address your comments and suggestions in the "Prose concerns" section of your comments. I've also added a map showing the provinces in 1822 (feel free to substitute a better map). • Astynax talk 07:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More comments:

  • The notes are inconsistent about the use of dates; Barman is given as "Barman (1999)", but Janotti doesn't get a date, even though in both cases there is only one reference work. There are two by Carvalho so the date is necessary there. I would suggest either adding dates to everything or dropping them from everything except Carvalho.
  • This isn't something I'd oppose on, but it's not necessary to link the footnotes and references into a single section, as you have done under the title "Bibliography". See WP:FOOTERS, which suggests that sub-sectioning these end sections is undesirable. Mike Christie (talk) 15:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That's because most articles related to the history of Brazil as an Empire share pieces of information and sources. For example, some of the information that was written here was taken from "History of the Empire of Brazil", where 3 books written by Barman are used as sources. Is "Barman (1999)" really an issue? --Lecen (talk) 16:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I wouldn't oppose on either of the issues above; they're just suggestions. Two more questions below:
  • The lead mentions his exceptionalism, which is not explicitly discussed in the article; I think it should be made clearer in the body of the article where his views are thought of as exceptionalist.
  • There is a picture here in pt.wikipedia that seems to be freely licensed and might be useful; any reason not to use it?

At this point, the issues remaining are minor enough that I am changing to support, though I'd still like to see the prose tweaks suggested above. Mike Christie (talk) 18:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It meant that Brazil should pursuit its own course, that is, a Portuguese-speaking parliamentary monarchy unlike its Hispanic-American Presidential Republic neighbors. That should be added to the main body of th text? --Lecen (talk) 23:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:LEAD, the lead should be a summary of what's in the body of the article, so yes, if it's worth mentioning in the lead, it should be somewhere in the body. Mike Christie (talk) 23:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done that, is it better? --Lecen (talk) 00:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that does it. Mike Christie (talk) 11:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I did not add that photograph is because I have no way of proving its reliability. I don't know if I can really trust it and believe that is indeed a pciture of a house Carneiro Leão lived in 1832. --Lecen (talk) 15:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prose needs cleansing, although nearly there. Can you find someone unfamiliar with the text to go right through it? I've looked at the top:

  1. Overlinking: why are all of those words linked in the opening sentence? statesman, diplomat, judge and monarchist. I think by now we know what a representative, parliamentary democracy is. Commonplace. The useful links are being drowned out. Why is Brazil linked twice again in the infobox, just after the more specific town-name? Dictatorship? Politician? Roman catholic? And you couldn't write a stub for the two red links in the infobox, could you?
  2. "He first lived in Paracatú then moved on to Ouro Preto, which was then called Vila Rica." Why the italics for the last item? Remove "which was".
  3. "exercised great efforts"—ugly. "made"?
  4. "received a bachelor's degree in Law in 1824, and after another year of study, on 18 June 1825, earned a Master's diploma." Received and earned ... he didn't work for the first one? Remove "after another year of study,". Are you looking for redundant wording? Please see these exercises.
  5. "he supported the constitutionalists against the absolutists"—do we find out what these politics were? Even briefly wound into the sentence?
  6. Why is "processing plant" piped, and why to "factory" (is this useful for readers, or just more dilution of high-value links)?
  7. "Between 1831 and 1832 only, six uprisings occurred in Rio de Janeiro, the country's capital." The only is odd. "In 1831 and 1832 alone, there were six ....". Tony (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - I agree that the article is close to FA standard, but there is inconsistent an inaccurate usage of "that" and "which" following restrictive and non-restrictive clauses throughout. The other "that"s need checking for redundancy as in "Carneiro Leão mistakenly believed that he could diminish the political influence of his rival" and "The Liberals knew that they could not return to power through the ballot box". I agree with Tony, it would be useful to find someone unfamiliar with the text to go through it. Graham Colm (talk) 10:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments In my humble opinion, the article still needs extensive copyediting before it can reach true FA standard. I'll try to do some of it myself and will note any issues here as they arise.
    • In the lead and much of the article: Shouldn't he be referred to as "Carneiro Leão" rather than "Paraná" when mentioning events that occurred before he received the title? I am not familiar with WP practice in this matter (surely there is an established standard—we have boatloads of nobility articles).
  • —Fvasconcellos (t·c) 12:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He is called "Paraná" in the lead because that is how is always called in any history article, book, text and even letters written by Brazilians who lived during the Empire and who met him. In the article itself, he is only called "Paraná" after he is awarded the nobility title. Before that, he is only called "Carneiro Leão". --Lecen (talk) 13:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I'm about halfway done. In "Defender of the Constitution": "Carneiro Leão averted that threat by giving four speeches during the same day in which he urged the government to refuse this illegal demand." Do you mean he gave all four speeches in 19 July, or all for speeches in a single day, but not the same day in which the demands were presented? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 12:07, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They were made in the same day in which the demands were presented. --Lecen (talk) 12:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Without a doubt. He and I are a team. We did it all together. --Lecen (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ Christgau & 1975 (1)
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