Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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User:Dilidor Disruptive / Uncivil conduct towards other editors

Hello, I would like to request Administrators review the conduct of Dilidor toward myself and other editors. I believe Dilidor has a long history of disruptive editing and abusive behavior towards editors (including myself) and is not making an attempt to follow Wikipedia policies despite a number of warnings from other editors and administrators. The policies I believe Dilidor regularly disregards and has demonstrated towards me are WP:CIV / WP:UNCIVIL, WP:PA, WP:EP, WP:CON, WP:LISTEN and WP:DE. He also has a history of WP:EW.

The example of their behavior towards me are:

1. Start of discussion [1]
2. Continuation of discussion: [2], [3], [4]

I believe Dilidor’s statements speak for themselves, so I will not repeat them here. If desired I can expand on this.

The times when Dilidor does engage in discussion with others, it is often confrontational or hostile and contains insults. I believe this is intentional for the purpose of driving others away from the discussion. Even if it is not intentional it has had that impact. In addition to my current situation, Oldperson is a recent example [5], [6].

I have made a good faith through my talk page to involve others in the discussion to resolve the issue before coming here. [7]

I think the above discussion on my talk page has valuable information from other editors and admins regarding this matter. In the course of this discussion, it has become apparent to me that other editors and administrators have had the same problems with Dilidor and they seems unwilling to stop/change even when warned by admins (such as Cúchullain [8], [9], Favonian [10], and RexxS [11], [12]). I think the content on User talk:Dilidor page such as [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], and their history in WP:ANI such as [23] and [24],demonstrate this pattern of unacceptable conduct and disruptive editing.

I've chosen to disengage from Dilidor and not discuss the other reverts he made without discussion to my edits (reverts to [25] [26] which I think are examples of his being intentionally disruptive or reverting recklessly). Because our interests overlap and Dilidor’s history I believe this will repeat if not addressed.

Please let me know if I can provide any other information. I am relatively new, so if I have made a mistake, again please let me know. Thank you.   // Timothy::talk 00:50, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

I concur fully with TimothyBlue's complaint over Dilidor's behaviour. My own unfortunate interaction with them occurred when they made multiple changes to an article on my watchlist, where several of those changes breached our Manual of Style.

I reverted the changes with what I thought was a neutral edit summary, too many mistakes, run on sentences, breaches of MOS:NUMNOTES, which was promptly re-reverted by Dilidor with what I consider an aggressive edit summary you probably should learn what "run-on sentences" are before accusing someone of creating them; and what "mistakes" have I introduced? take this to the talk page---because my edits are a DISTINCT improvement. The "discuss" part of WP:BRD should have happened before any re-reverting by Dilidor.

I explained my revert on the article talk page at Talk:Momsen lung #Problems with recent edits, where I explained that Dilidor had created a run-on sentence (a comma splice to be precise) and had breached MOS:NUMNOTES by starting a sentence with numerals and using a mixture of numerals and words when enumerating the same quantities.

Dilidor's response was to ask me to explain which was the "run-on" sentence, and what errors they had made, completely ignoring my previous explanation, which I believe was already clear enough. I now know that this is simply part of Dilidor's style of debate, to frustrate other editors by repeatedly requesting more explanation.

The debate continued with me attempting to explain to Dilidor what a run-on sentence is, thinking that they were not understanding. Of course, I now know that they simply "know better" and disagree with our Manual of Style, which does not accept a comma as appropriate punctuation to join together multiple independent clauses. That may be usable by James Joyce as a stream-of-consciousness device in Ulysses, but not in an encyclopedia article.

Eventually the exchange climaxed with Dilidor writing "your spelling reveals the core of the entire problem--you're a Brit! That goes a long way in explaining both your condescension and your ignorance." Judging by the stream of complaints voiced at User talk:TimothyBlue #Advice / Guidance needed, that appears to be typical of the way Dilidor treats other editors.

I believe that Wikipedia would be better off without Dilidor's contributions, if they cannot learn how to edit collaboratively and respect the project-wide consensus contained in our Manual of Style. --RexxS (talk) 01:30, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

I've interacted with Dilidor and he certainly has a recurring problem with incivility and edit warring, as well as ignoring consensus, eg here and here. He's been warned about this various times by various editors and admins, but he falls back on the same behaviors time and again. He certainly deserves admonishment as it's high time he shaped up - or else found another hobby.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:36, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Dilidor persistently, and sometimes disingenuously, removed parenthetical commas per MOS:GEOCOMMA and MOS:DATECOMMA at Plymouth Rock; see discussion here [27]. A few weeks later, the same thing over at American Revolution and American Revolutionary War; discussed here [28]. I expect to find myself having the same argument with Dilidor again, at some other page. I have not been very friendly with Dilidor, I suppose, but I think it's fair to say I have been patient. Regulov (talk) 20:09, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for being late here. Dealing with a broken leg yesterday p.m. and today. Been away from the Internet.

I have found Dilidor to be immediately abusive, arrogant, disingenuous, and even outright dishonest. I have provided links to corroboration for all of this here, and made previous appeals for administrator intervention to put a stop to it both there and at TimothyBlue’s talk page.

Being peremptorily aggressive and reflexively dismissive is his standard MO, as other users have given multiple examples of here and at TimothyBlue’s talk page. An example of his being disingenuous is his repeatedly accusing me of, for example calling him a “jerk“ at the TimothyBlue talk page discussion, when that was clearly a paraphrase used in context to characterize the consensus held by the group.

Here is the passage at issue:

What is the point of these good faith efforts by User:TimothyBlue if he is going to be ignored by administrators and just told by other editors, “Sure, Dilidor’s a jerk, and absolutely knows better. Just put up with it and everyone will get along.“ This is going to keep good editors at the encyclopedia? Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 09:54, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

An example of his outright dishonesty is at the above cited link at the Pilgrims (Plymouth Colony) talk page, where he attempted to pretend he had not twice been previously been cited for edit warring at that page on his own talk page (here and here) by me regarding his peremptory, uncivil, and disruptive behavior there. Then tried to play the victim at the Pilgrims (Plymouth Colony) talk page, and act as though I had all along refused his entreaties to meet in there on neutral ground. All of which is transparent nonsense, and easily exposed as such.

Enough is enough. User Dilidor has behaved this way chronically towards both new and clearly conscientious users, and veteran users with hundreds of thousands of total edits over decades of work here in aggregate at this encyclopedia. He needs to be sorted out. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 20:28, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I've only rarely interacted with Dilidor and it was never a particularly positive experience. On one occasion [29] he simply removed my message from his talk page without saying a word because "it was not signed" (yes, I forgot to sign it, but it was by no means an anonymous message). His copy-editing work does have some merit, but that is nullified by the amount of grief and disruption that he causes to the community. Dilidor is the typical competent but difficult character that in the end is more of a hindrance than a help to the project. --Deeday-UK (talk) 19:32, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I fully agree. I first interacted with him at New London Union Station, where he removed massive amounts of well-cited text from the (GA status) article. Those edits introduced multiple factual errors and non-existent infobox parameters, and his reaction to my reversion was hostile; only the intervention of an admin stopped him from edit warring. A month later, he came back and repeated several of the disputed changes - once again refusing to use the talk page when asked to. Given that the diffs given in this section indicate that his behavior has not changed, I believe that action (likely a block) is needed to stop his toxic and confrontational attitude. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Sounds like it may be time to consider placing a one revert restriction considering the level and lengthiness of the problem here. In the very least he needs a direct final warning that he needs to shape up now or he's going to face restrictions.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:50, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

They agreed to such a 1RR restriction earlier in the year, in regard to the removal of wikilinks. However I don't see a content-related restriction (alone) as enough. The problem here is not just article-space edits, but their attitude to other editors in general, across the talk: spaces. They demonstrate a belief that their own edits are perfect and unquestionable, yet other editors must first and continually demonstrate the apropriateness of them, and their qualifications to be here at all. We do not work on that basis, single editors do not get to impose such expectations. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

What more do we need to say here to get some action? This isn’t simply some misdirected jihad by a bunch of cranky editors. It is a well established consensus reflecting chronic and preemptory WP:Civil-violating behavior {and more) towards new editors, veteran editors with decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of total edits in aggregate, and even multiple administrators. What gives? Wikiuser100 (talk) 04:24, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

While IfindDilidor frustrating, I am positive that others find me frustrating. (I have been accused of edit warring after 1 revert none the less), I have noticed that Dilidor has made the effort to make explanatory or at least better edit summaries. However I do disagree with his reasoning behind some. He appears to be motivated by a mythological view of the history of New England, and will revert edits that are soundly and reliably sourced. edits that don't fit with his version of reality. I have just reverted one of his reverts and have asked him to take it to the talk page.here and here I am awaiting a response. I might have gone to far as to inquiring motives, but consistent behavior elicts a desire to understand motive, perhaps if there was a discussion explaining why RS were reverted, then the issue could be put to rest. Putting everything on a balance scale, Dilidors contributions do outweigh any frustrations or problems. Should someone say he same about myself. I do not see any problem here that can't be solved by open communication. In fact that could be said for most problems that arise.Oldperson (talk) 23:21, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to see Dilidor, who has been editing regularly since this report was opened, address this here. Refusing to account for his behavior or respond to the concerns within the ANI thread is itself disruptive. If he can't discuss things here, maybe he needs a block until he's ready to engage on these concerns. Grandpallama (talk) 15:49, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Proposal

Proposal: as edit warring is a common thread in the disruption caused by Dilidor's behavior, I propose that they abide by a WP:1RR restriction: only one revert per 24 hours.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:45, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. This will at least keep things on the talk page.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:45, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I also support a civility warning.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:09, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• weak support (not opposed to this). But it's still failing to address their hostility. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:53, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support as better than no action. It may not be strong enough to result in behaviour modification in their interactions with other editors, but it might spare articles from their idiosyncratic copy-editing. --RexxS (talk) 01:49, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support as a preventative measure that will help reduce disruption (since it doesn't appear any voluntary preventative measures are forthcoming). I would also support a civility warning. – Levivich 00:46, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Let us hope not to return to this issue. Regulov (talk) 18:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support I would also support a civility warning.   // Timothy::talk  20:08, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support without prejudice to other solutions addressing hostile behaviour. Guy (help!) 00:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Courtesy Vanishing

I request a courtesy vanishing as soon as possible. Been trying to get one for a while, unsuccessfully so far. There is a period of time I have to wait because of a TBAN. I wish to have the courtesy vashing done before the end of this year, because I will be unable to log back in later. If a courtesy vanishing within the next two and a half weeks is not possible, can I arrange one in advance? Any action on my part must be done before the end of this year. Iistal (talk) 02:57, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

@Iistal: Please follow the "how to" section at WP:VANISH. Johnuniq (talk) 03:06, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

• ’’Vashing’’ apparently isn’t a word but it I’m declaring a contest here and now for the best suggestion for what it would mean if it was. EEng 06:49, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Iistal, you cannot vanish unless you are in good standing. Have you successfully appealed your TBAN? The six month period mentioned after your June appeal Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive299#Topic_Ban was simply the minimum wait before you could appeal again, not an automatic end to the topic ban. And do you understand that vanishing means that you intend to permanently leave Wikipedia? Perhaps you are thinking of WP:FRESHSTART (which still requires that your TBAN be appealed). Meters (talk) 18:42, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, I'm aware that vanishing is permanent. Is this noticeboard an appropriate place to appeal the TBAN? Please remember, I will be unable to write back after the year's end, so all of the necessary efforts on my part have to be now. I would like the TBAN appealed as soon as possible. If there is a minimum length of time I must wait before it can be successfully appealed, I wish to arrange that in advance. Iistal (talk) 03:27, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

You cannot vanish because you have a topic ban. You probably won't be able to successfully appeal it in the time frame you are asking for. Just scramble your password and never log in again. There is no reason to vanish you. 50.35.82.234 (talk) 09:11, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

What about emailing oversight-en-wp@wikipedia.org? Iistal (talk) 03:44, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

You were told in June 2018 that "this topic ban should not be appealed without six months of editing activity that does not involve violating this active topic ban." You then made 8 edits over 10 months, most of which skirted or violated the topic ban. You were again told in April 2019 that "[u]sers are expected to show that they can contribute positively in spite of editing restrictions if they want them lifted." After that you blatantly violated your TBAN, were blocked, and finally unblocked in October 2019. Since then you've blanked your Talk page, asked the admin who imposed the TBAN about courtesy vanishing, and then came here to say you've been "trying to get one for a while". That's it. No meaningful editing activity as others have repeatedly asked. You're clearly NOT HERE to contribute to the encyclopedia—because you haven't been contributing and also because you're leaving soon anyways—plus you're misrepresenting your own efforts about the courtesy vanishing. So why should the community allow it? Woodroar (talk) 04:16, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

The answer is no. 50.35.82.234 (talk) 06:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

@Iistal: What are you trying to accomplish? You cannot completely vanish since anyone familiar with an edit you made previously can find your new name with minimal effort just by looking up the new name in the article history. With that in mind, you can normally achieve the same result if you just stop editing. 2600:1003:B851:85CB:E91E:359C:ADF:BDF (talk) 00:53, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Pedrovariant and their IPs: NOTHERE, soapboxing, edit warring, and logged out socking

• Pedrovariant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 148.63.244.197 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 148.69.10.241 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 148.69.198.205 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2001:818:EA9B:5600:15B3:ED92:A7FF:9E89 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user, and the IPs they are using, are not here to build the encyclopedia, but instead to use it as their soapbox, such as by enforcing their language preferences, in order to advance their activism. To this end, they have engaged in edit warring, original research, and violations of WP:SOCK, specifically WP:SCRUTINY and WP:LOUTSOCK.

Evidence

All the same person All of the IPs geolocate to Portugal, and are owned by Vodafone. 3 of the 4 IPs start with "148.6". Pedrovariant has edited Portugal and LGBT rights in Portugal, but no other countries. The two most active IPs have signed talk page posts as "Pedro". [30][31] Here, at 20:40 on 10 December, they said, "sorry that I forced the changes", even thought the attempt to "force" it was done by the IP. [32] They all have the same interest, editing articles related to gender and sexuality, focusing on inserting their preferred terminology, and in many cases editing the exact same articles. Which brings us to... Logged-out socking Pedrovariant was warned by Flyer22 Reborn on 08:56, 10 December 2019 (UTC) to not switch between an account and an IP. They edited with Pedrovariant at 20:40 that same day, so they saw the message. I myself asked them why they continued to edit under an IP on 04:20, 14 December 2019 (UTC), but never got any response. Yet, they have still edited under IPs after both warnings. [33][34] Several articles have been edited by more than one of these IPs/account, usually attempting to add the same phrasing. This often occurs when they engage in... Edit warring At Female condom, attempting to remove "female", "male", and "woman", and add the anus: [35][36][37] Reverted by IdreamofJeanie and Flyer22 Reborn. At Sexual orientation, attempting to rewrite the lead: [38], they were reverted by Freeknowledgecreator and they posted on the talk page, where their proposal was opposed [39], yet they tried to do the same thing with the same edit summary: [40] At Corrective rape, attempting to add cisgender or gender expression: [41][42][43][44] (the latter 2 were after being addressed on the talk page and claiming to be sorry about forcing the changes [45]) At Third gender, trying to rewrite how intersex is described, and remove the link to Disorders of sex development, due to being offended by "disorder": [46][47][48] Reverted by Schazjmd, me, and Pepperbeast. At Safe sex, among other problem changes, removing "men" and "women": [49][50][51] All after having been warned not to do this: [52][53] At Girl, attempting to add undue content to the lead: [54][55] Reverted by John from Idegon and me. Using Wikipedia as a soapbox for activism Much of their POV pushing has already been described, but here are some more examples: Removing "men", "women", "male", and "female": [56][57][58][59][60] And again even after having been warned against this: [61] Reverted by Flyer22 Reborn, Rickyurs, Rsrikanth05, OrangeTopaz, Denisarona, IdreamofJeanie. Unsourced changes or commentary: [62][63][64] Reverted by Flyer22 Reborn and Springee.

It is clear that this person is ignoring the warnings given them on their various talk pages, and the opposition of the Wikipedia community, and is intent on engaging in the same bad behavior. I therefore propose that the admins indefinitely block Pedrovariant and block the IPs for a good while. Any attempts thereafter to return under another IP or account should likewise be blocked. -Crossroads- (talk) 07:01, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

• Ouch, the activism is very evident—that is not the purpose of Wikipedia. The Pedrovariant account was created on 8 December 2019 but the IPs were doing similar editing beforehand—for example, 148.63.244.197 on 21 July 2019. I support an indefinite block of Pedrovariant and blocks on the IPs for block evasion if similar edits continue. Johnuniq (talk) 09:12, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm using different IPs because it's different devices I use, not because I want to keep going with the edits I did in another accounts, just happens to be in different devices I used and not all in the same. I removed gendered and sexed language to keep more neutral, and be acessible for trans and intersex people, use gendered language is also take a side, so neutral is literally neutral, and I didn't use explicitly neutral language, but variants. Pedrovariant (talk) 13:13, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

You were already pointed to the following and recent WP:Village pump (policy) discussion about the activism you are engaging in: Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 161#Gender-neutral language in human sex-specific articles. The community is clear, but you don't care about what the community states. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

And the IPs are clearly gaming the system. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:57, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block for the Pedrovariant account. The account is barely being used anyway. And support block of IPs. Editor recently used 87.103.21.55 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) to edit war as well. Because the IPs Pedrovariant uses vary, one range block won't stop all of the IPs. And it's doubtful that a range block will be applied to all of them. So, in some cases, it's also best to semi-protect some of the affected articles. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Not only is that IP definitely them, based on behavior and being from Vodafone and Portugal as it says in the WHOIS, but it shows the person's ongoing intention to edit war via new IPs. The edit was on 14:09 15 December, [65] after they commented in this very ANI report at 13:13. -Crossroads- (talk) 18:24, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
  • And as Pedrovariant they continue to edit war at Safe sex [66] and are now doing so at Handjob. [67] -Crossroads- (talk) 21:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support an indef block for Perovariant. As for the IPs, banning the range might affect genuine users so I feel it's a bad idea. Semi-protecting might be a good idea. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 09:06, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: This edit to the Lesbian article was made by Pedrovariant on 16 December 2019. After it was reverted, he returned @ 14:13, 14:14, and 14:30. This comment was posted on the talk page under the 148.63.244.197 IP address on 8 December; followed by a second comment under the user name on 16 December ("nova secção" is Portuguese for "new section"). Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 11:51, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Editor is still edit warring and POV-pushing, changing wording away from its common or historical usage, adding original research, unnecessary, inaccurate, or awkward wording. Look at these edits by Pedrovariant to the Gay article that I just reverted. The situation is worse now because the editor is autoconfirmed and can edit semi-protected articles. That account needs a block now. Pinging Genericusername57, who reverted Pedrovariant at the Lesbian article, in case they are interested in weighing in here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:55, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Pedrovariant. Master and sock now blocked.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:31, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Berean Hunter. I see that all the IPs mentioned here are blocked for 1 to 3 months as well. If any time in the future another IP pops up that we have reason to believe is the same person, this is considered block evasion correct? And where should this be reported - ANI, SPI, somewhere else? -Crossroads- (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

It's certainly WP:Block evasion, whether more accounts or IPs are used. The block on the Pedrovariant account is not just about that account. It's about the person. Like Wikipedia:Sock puppetry#Inappropriate uses of alternative accounts states, "Sanctions apply to individual editors as people, not to accounts. Using a second account to edit in violation of an active block or community sanction will result in further sanctions, which may include removal of your contributions. See also WP:EVASION." Yes, more editing by this person should be reported to SPI, because of the block on the account and this editor is confirmed as those IPs, both in this ANI thread and indirectly in the aforementioned SPI. IPs, just like Best known for IP, are routinely blocked via SPIs. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

HiLo48's incivility on Talk:Bruce_Pascoe

I would request an admin have a word with HiLo48. He seems to be getting more and more incivil over at Talk:Bruce_Pascoe. He started off ok, in Talk:Bruce_Pascoe#status_as_Indigeneous_and_sourcing he states
I draw your attention to WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH. That means we don't make nasty allegations about other editors.
The sarcasm isn't productive. Not a sign of assuming good faith.
However, starting in Talk:Bruce_Pascoe#Lead_paragraph he begins showing incivility pretty quickly
Thanks for reinforcing my point IP editor, and also showing a refusal to learn how to discuss things properly on a Wikipedia Talk page. No indenting. No signature. No registration (especially important since your IP address keeps changing). Bad faith comments. I think WP:COMPETENCEISREQUIRED allows us to ignore any further comments from you. HiLo48 (talk) 05:01, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

He really gets going in the Rfc on the page with

Oh FFS, yet another non-indented comment by a random IP editor. PLEASE learn how to edit, and please register a name. It gives you greater anonymity, and helps us all follow conversations more easily. (Were you attempting to explicitly reply to someone else there, or is this just another repetitive point being hurled into the mix?) He continues in the same vein in the Rfc with Who wrote that? It's been a long time since I've participated in page of discussion with so many incompetent editors. But you did get me laughing out loud. The very first thing your link brought up was link to a Wikipedia article, List of Indigenous Australian group names, a title clearly avoiding the use of the word "tribe", and from this very encyclopaedia. Thank you for proving me right. HiLo48 (talk) 21:00, 11 December 2019 (UTC) (this was a reply to one of my messages
When I reminded him to essentially assume good faith, his response was :

Yet another post that stuffed up the indenting, and this time from a seemingly experienced editor. Why has this discussion attracted so many incompetent editors? As for "...let's not comment on the commentators", Wikipedia depends on reliable sources, so we must ALWAYS be judging the reliability of what is presented as sourcing for content here, AND commenting on it when it fails that test.

It seems to be he's getting entrenched by this issue and might need a quick word spoken to him by an admin, however, If I'm wrong, feel free to close this out, I'm good with that ! Necromonger...We keep what we kill 14:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Clearly several personal attacks. Kirbanzo ^{(userpage - talk - contribs)} 16:40, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

IPs & editors who either don't know how or simply don't bother to indent there posts properly, can be quite frustrating. GoodDay (talk) 17:04, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

I have no love for HiLo48 and have found him to be at times unacceptably abrasive, uncivil, and insufferable. But the above !diffs are rather tame in comparison to his usual diatribes, and likely not actionable. I agree with GoodDay that non-indenting, and refusing to comply with requests to indent, together constitute an extremely frustrating practice that try the collective patience of experienced editors.--WaltCip (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

The bad behavior of one person neither mandates nor even excuses the bad behavior of another. Whether or not the IP editor has done things they should not have done has no bearing on whether or not HiLo48 has also done things they should not have done. Other responses by HiLo48 to the bad behavior of others are entirely possible, and I would say, are preferred over the reactions noted above. CIR also applies to knowing how to treat people with decency, and when an editor has been around as long has they have and still don't seem to understand how to do so, perhaps there's a lack of competency there that needs to be addressed. --Jayron32 18:16, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh dear, yet another attempt to silence me via this noticeboard. I will comment here, hopefully only once, because I know that in cases like mine where I have tackled many often wilfully ignorant, POV pushers over the years, including some Admins, it will simply become a place for those who hate me to pile on more of that hate, with massive amounts of lies and exaggerations, along with raising truckloads of hugely irrelevant material. It's what's happened in the past. This is possibly the worst place on Wikipedia for the achievement of anything like truth, fairness and justice. There is never any consequence for those who pile on with their lies and misrepresentations.

In the case of the IP editor at Talk:Bruce Pascoe, I suspect I have probably been more kind and more polite than any other editor on Wikipedia. It is my habit, in the hope of encouraging good editing, to always welcome new editors to the project. I did so in this case, with the standard, template driven welcome on his Talk page. In addition, because I had already seen this editor struggling with many aspects of how to properly comment here, but especially with indenting, I also gave him a personal welcome in my own words, explaining how indenting works and pointing him at some extra material that should have helped on his journey here. One normally hopes for some improvement after doing something like that, but in this case, nothing. I suspect those already attacking me above are completely unaware of these actions I took to try to help this editor, but I'm not surprised. After my welcomes and advice, he continued to completely fail to indent at all for a while, then after a few more prompts from me and others, started seemingly randomly indenting all over the place, even further destroying the flow of conversation there. It's important that anyone trying to fairly judge this scenario has a look at that Talk page, not just at its current form, which is bad enough, but at earlier versions. The mess this editor and a couple of other clearly novice editors were making on that page led to some more experienced editors trying to clean it up. It has meant to that many comments, including mine, were moved, even within the flow of conversation, something I don't really feel comfortable with at all. Because that editor has a constantly changing IP address, making conversation even more difficult to follow, I also advised him of the problems with that, and advised him more than once how important it is to register on Wikipedia. Again, nothing, just more repetition of the same arguments over and over again, coming from different IP addresses, but probably close enough to indicate it was the same person. (Can't be certain though, can we?)

It's worth pointing out for those who won't look properly that the topic on that page is one about race, always a difficult and divisive one.

I do have limited patience. This editor is clearly incompetent, and unwilling to cooperate with our policies. He has ignored an awful lot of good and well intentioned advice from me, and continued to waste my time and that of others on that Talk page. I am not the problem there. The IP editor in question is, along with several others who continue to ignore policy and the sound, source based arguments of others. I'll stop now, and probably ignore this page for a few days. I know from past experience here there is no point arguing with haters and POV pushers. (My opinion on that front will change when I see any consequence at all for anyone who piles onto this case with irrelevant, off-topic hate comments about me.) HiLo48 (talk) 22:19, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

• No one is trying to silence you. What they are trying to do is to get you to stop being rude to others. It isn't complicated. When you speak to other people, choose words and phrases and sentences that are polite and civil, and no one will bother you. It is possible to express any idea you want without doing so in a way that belittles or abuses others. --Jayron32 12:36, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) The issue here isn't the IPs. The issue here is that in your efforts to guide them in the right direction your tone noticeably shifts to one that is more hostile - which constitutes straying into personal attack territory. Also, some points:

1. It appears you need to be more tolerant of IP editors. Not everyone wants a name associated with their edits and are fine just leaving their current IP address. You can encourage them, yes, but near the end of the tone shift it seems more like applying undue pressure than encouragement. The constantly changing IP is a different problem - you might want to look into why this is the case, since they might have a valid reason for why it is changing.

2. While indenting is helpful when dealing with replies, and is standard practice, you're not required to do it. Wiki markup is not exactly the easiest to learn; it certainly took me a bit. Again, you seem to be putting undue pressure upon them to indent near the end of the tone shift, instead of encouragement. I understand you took steps to try and teach them, but we must remain civil throughout discussions.

3. The editors here aren't out to get you, we're just noticing a problem that may need administrator intervention. Please assume good faith, and consider this something you may need to improve on. Doing so would help prevent discussions like this in the future, as taking constructive criticism and using it to improve will fix the issues that have been brought up

As for the IP editor in question, as we do not know their identity we cannot make too many assumptions as to why they are neglecting to learn how to indent and other aspects. However, I am inclined to say that we should not bite them as other than this peculiarity, there seems to be no other issue (as while you said the article in question is about race. you said nothing about if their comments were constructive or not).

Hopefully I've cleared up this discussion enough so you can make a solid defense and not have to misrepresent anything. Kirbanzo ^{(userpage - talk - contribs)} 22:51, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Everyone should do their best to indent properly but I sometimes mess it up, even after 10 years of editing. Indenting is simply not worth getting all upset about. WMF and Wikipedia policies permit IP editing, so asking an IP editor to register an account in the midst of a disagreement is out of line and unlikely to be received well. Humans are capable of deciding not to be frustrated or irritated by trivialities beyond their control. I recommend that HiLo48 try to learn that lesson. Improved patience comes from a conscious decision to be more patient. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:28, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

What Cullen said. The encyclopedia content is the important issue here, not how someone indents on talk pages. It is almost always obvious what is a reply to what. To me indentation seems obvious, and so Cullen should either have used two colons rather than three (and that made it difficult for me to decide how to indent this), or, if the reply was supposed to be to Jayron above, have put this comment immediately after that, but in the past I have had my correct indentation changed to incorrect, and have on many occasions quietly fixed bad indentation without comment. It seems that what is obvious to me, and perhaps to you, is for some reason not obvious to other editors. Part of the problem is that WP:INDENT is far too long - it should simply say, "indent your edit at one more level than the edit that you are replying to, and put it after any other reply to the same edit." Phil Bridger (talk) 22:54, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

P.S. What I said above has been underlined by the edit conflict with Kirbanzo above. We are now even further from ideal indenting, but the discussion is still perfectly clear. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:59, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

At the risk of being contentious, might I suggest that expecting everyone who comments on an article talk page to understand obscure markup language might seem a little unnecessary in 2019? Wikipedia promotes itself as 'the encyclopedia that anyone can edit', and the WMF raises large sums of money on that basis. Maybe a little less sniping at newcomers and a bit more pressure on the WMF to put some of their funds towards creating an interface suitable for normal non-techie types might not go amiss. 86.143.231.214 (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, for years I've been encouraging WMF to develop what I propose we call a "Visual Editor". It's hard to see what could go amiss. EEng 14:52, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Our comments are falling on deaf ears. HiLo has already said he does not plan on paying attention to this page. We need to either go to his talk page -- or frankly block him, to get his attention.--WaltCip (talk) 13:06, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Let's be fair, the anon-IP started the problem, and it wasn't just bad indenting. They were pushing a strong bias against the BLP subject, and weren't listening and responding to anybody's attempt to explain policy/guidelines/practices on anything. I'm not posting a link, because you really have to look at the totality of anon IP comments on the talk page. I was personally tempted to just blank some of the IPs comments, since they seemed disruptive (but I know that's a blockable offense). HiLo48 can't be criticized for not trying to help the IP get better, but rather their mistake is the opposite, they should have just ignored the IP entirely. Every attempt by HiLo48 to explain things to the IP triggered another reply, which wasn't indented or responsive, which triggered another, and so on. --Rob (talk) 06:00, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

We all deal with difficult IPs from time-to-time. Being able to handle them with consistent civility and evenhandedness is itself an indicator of competence.--WaltCip (talk) 13:07, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• Propose block - HiLo48 is demonstrating serious WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour on the talk page (in the diffs posted above, and almost every other edit Hilo48 made on the talk page). If what WaltCip says is true, that this is "rather tame in comparison to his usual diatribes", and they aren't going to pay attention to anything said here, then a short block seems warranted to deter this kind of behaviour. HiLo48 needs to learn to assume good faith (including not unfairly assuming that others aren't assuming good faith) and lay off the personal attacks - HiLo48 questioned someone's talk page 6 times on that talk page alone, and it wasn't all directed to the IP editor, not that it should matter. Cjhard (talk) 08:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
• I just read almost all HiLo48's comments dated 4 December 2019 and later and most of them are perfect—I don't know about the accuracy of the statements regarding the topic but the explanations of standard procedure and policies are exactly correct. See User talk:202.161.1.218 for how HiLo48 welcomed the IP on 3 December 2019 and offered a friendly and simple explanation about indenting. Those commenting above to the effect that an IP's indenting doesn't matter are mistaken—frequent posts without the correct indents are disruptive as they break the flow of a thread and make subsequent posts difficult. If someone is going to frequently contribute to a talk page, it is kinder to bluntly tell them about the problems they are causing. HiLo48 did better than that—he politely outlined what is needed which is more help than I noticed from others. The diffs of "uncivil" comments above are very weak and do not account for the totality of the talk page. It's true that a couple of the mentions of "incompetent" were excessive, although they were accurate. Johnuniq (talk) 10:05, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with Johnuniq. Indenting, at least to me, isn't that big of a deal, really. We can all read , yes, indenting makes it easier but it isn't needed. I could have typed this message without the indent and Johnuniq would still understand that I was responding to his message by reading the first four words.

Also, I would like to point out HiLo48's response to the olive branch I extended to him. Necromonger...We keep what we kill 13:05, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• Talk about not assuming good faith... Kirbanzo ^{(userpage - talk - contribs)} 18:26, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

The IP is the problem. It's either not competent to learn how to indent properly or choosing not to learn spitefully. GoodDay (talk) 13:53, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps we should sentence him to a period of indented servitude. EEng 14:47, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• I think HiLo48's comments directed towards others violate CIVIL. I've had some interaction with the editor and I do think they need to understand that comments that come off as dismissive (or worse) aren't helpful. Comments that focus on the editor vs the content are a problem. I haven't read this whole discussion so I will abstain from supporting or objecting to the proposed block. This isn't behavior that should result in an immediate block but, if the editor has been warned, and this ANI is a clear warning, this is behavior that should result in a block if it continues. Springee (talk) 18:37, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kyle Kulinski (3rd nomination)

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This may be the messiest AfD I've ever seen.

The subject of the article has allegedly, based on comments at the AfD, put out a call to his followers to flood the AfD with keep !votes. The problem is that some well-meaning editors—and I do think they're acting in absolutely good faith—have deleted the !votes that they feel were solicited. (@KidAd: I do think you're doing what you think is the right thing and acting in good faith, but it's making a bad situation worse.)

The mess is so bad that I considered ending the AfD early: I don't think we'll be able to get a meaningful consensus, and whatever the outcome of this AfD is, it's probably doomed to DRV.

So I look for wider input. Is there another remedy available besides hitting the emergency stop button? —C.Fred (talk) 00:00, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• C.Fred, I just edit-conflicted with you: you were doing a good thing, by tagging one of those SPAs, but I chose the blunter tool: a NOTHERE block, given not just their SPA-ness, but also the personal attacks. (I have no qualms about just blocking and removing their comment if it's that obvious...) Thank you, Drmies (talk) 00:06, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

@Drmies: I wasn't ready to immediately block that user, but I did think about {{rpa}}'ing some of their comment. Given that they're now blocked, I think this is a case where removing the comment entirely is in order. —C.Fred (talk) 00:13, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm getting old, C.Fred, and haven't yet had dessert. I'll cut you a piece of buttermilk pie in a moment. I'm looking at the other comments, and this one clearly stood out, blockably in my opinion. CompactSpacez, for instance, is this close to a block, but at least one can claim they actually commented on content, once or twice. Drmies (talk) 00:18, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm bleeping annoyed at that AFD (which I discovered through this ANI report), that A) my 'vote' keeps getting placed into a PoV (IMHO) sub-section, that taints my vote & B) that annoying subsection title keeps getting re-added. GoodDay (talk) 02:00, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I've deleted my vote from the AFD-in-question. To say I'm annoyed right now? is an understatement. GoodDay (talk) 02:15, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• GoodDay, don't be silly--we all know you, and so will the closing administrator. It does not taint your vote. Drmies (talk) 02:19, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

An 'explanatory note' to the sub-section title has been added. If it remains, I'll reconsider. Just peeved that somebody moved my vote around. GoodDay (talk) 02:25, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm thinking the sub-section wasn't so much a sub-section, as.... You know how some discussions get so long that there's an arbitrary break added? In this case, it wasn't arbitrary. But it's more just a break in the flow rather than a true subsection. —C.Fred (talk) 02:26, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I find the name of it the arbitrary break, suggests all 'votes' under it are somehow tainted. GoodDay (talk) 02:31, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

As I stated on my talk page, the header (which I did not create) was originally intended to divide votes cast from the point the page was nominated on December 12 from those submitted by Kulinski fans who largely came to vandalize the page (intentionally or unintentionally) after the release of this tweet. While I do think the header is useful and should remain in some form, I am more than open to tweaking the language. KidAd (talk) 03:18, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

It should indeed be tweaked to a neutral name. I'm not a Kulinski fan who was contacted to try & save his bio article, which is what the current 'name' suggests. GoodDay (talk) 03:23, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm neutral on the notice, but I would suggest formatting it as regular text instead of a section header so that new !votes will not appear on top of it. –dlthewave ☎ 03:27, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• The close will be key here. Fortunately the canvassed !votes are all based on obviously non-policy-related arguments, so they can be dismissed out of hand and consensus assessed from the remaining legitimate comments. If this had been done at the second nomination, we wouldn't be here. –dlthewave ☎ 03:21, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• @KidAd: Judging by the above discussion, it seems that GoodDay agrees with me on the comment beneath the break. It seems you are the only one opposed to this. What issue do you have with the comment? CompactSpacez (talk) 04:39, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• I don't know why you aren't adding new comments to the bottom of the discussion. It would really make this easier to follow. I don't agree with the comment beneath the header because you're attempting to gloss over fact. A large flood of people came to the page after Kulinski tweeted about it. Some editors that were not IPs or SPAs contributed their votes, and I think proper distinctions have been made on the page. The header still provides a visual representation of the turning point in the discussion, a sort of Anno Domini. It doesn't need to be sugar-coated because you and GoodDay are offended. KidAd (talk) 04:44, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• One of the most vocal keep !voters, CompactSpacez (talk · contribs), previously made this edit that reinstated vandalism under the guise of removing it. I thought that maybe it was a mistake, but the editor says it was actually a joke. As the user notes, that disruptive edit was made two years ago. In fact, it was their last edit (under this account anyway) prior to earlier this month. A few hours ago, CompactSpacez received a warning for making personal attacks and then issued the exact same warning (including the customized "Tone it down, please. Seriously." message) to another user only 8 minutes later! I think Wikipedia was better off without this NOTHERE editor and suggest that they be involuntarily returned to their long-term absence. They don't seem to be here to build an encyclopedia. Lepricavark (talk) 03:34, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• After having interacted with the user in question today, I am inclined to agree. This editor is certainly WP:NOTHERE. KidAd (talk) 03:36, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
• @Lepricavark:@KidAd: This is a baseless smear. Wikipedia has disciplinary measures in place for what I did. In my case, I was given a warning. That's it. End of story. Bringing it up two years later in an effort to discredit subsequent edits is silly. I've made a number of other edits on Wikipedia, all of which have been productive. It seems, in this case, that the editors in the Kyle Kulinski discussion (namely, KidAd and Snooganssnoogans) don't have an actual refutation of the solid arguments I (and other "pro-keep" editors) have raised, so they resort to such personal attacks. It's ridiculous, frankly. All I'm seeing are accusations and personal attacks. Similar accusations and smears were leveled in the Bernie Sanders Media Bias AfD, to all editors in favor of "keeping". Little substantive discussion. These folks claiming to be defending "Wikipedia policy" evidently have not read up on WP:GF. CompactSpacez (talk) 03:54, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Well, you disappeared for two years after that bit of joke (er, racist) vandalism, so there aren't many subsequent edits for us to discredit. Anyway, you've a fine job of discrediting yourself with your battleground behavior over the past two weeks. I notice that you provided no explanation for why you copied-and-pasted a warning for your own talk page to another editor's talk page. Lepricavark (talk) 04:03, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
• The mention of the Wojcicki edit isn't to discredit, but to provide context for how you edit. Edits like this and this don't lend to your credibility either. You also display clear WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior with edits like this: [68]. With all of your arguing and whataboutism, you refuse to accept the clear notability standards established in Wikipedia policy, and are willing to blame others for advocating for it. KidAd (talk) 04:08, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• @Lepricavark: The reason is quite simple: I felt the content of the warning applied to said user. The user in question, Snoog, was involved in systematically leveling baseless accusations against all of the "keep" voters, not only in the Kyle Kulinski AfD, but also in the Sanders Media AfD a few weeks ago. He implied that all of the "keep" voters were somehow illegitimate. He's attempting to discredit votes by claiming that certain users hadn't posted in a certain number of years (I was never aware that you need to be editing everyday for your votes to count). In brief, I judged his behavior to be acting in bad faith. Notice that the majority of his comments on the thread rarely addressed the substance of the debate, but almost exclusively focused on attacking individual editors. CompactSpacez (talk) 04:12, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
• @KidAd: The edits you've cited in the above comment seem reasonable. I do not see the issue with them. At worst, they are provocative. Regarding "notability standards", it is established precedent on Wikipedia that notable YouTubers may have their own Wikipedia pages. Abiding by precedent is not "whataboutism". It is only reasonable to ask that the standard you set for Kulinski is no different from the standard set for others. CompactSpacez (talk) 04:21, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• So it's just a coincidence that numerous people who hadn't edited in years were randomly showing up in those discussions? I don't believe that and neither do you. Many of the keep !votes are illegitimate as they were canvassed and are not based on policy. It is appropriate, and even desirable, for those editors to be identified. You had no grounds for warning Snoog and your behavior could be reasonably described as harassment. Lepricavark (talk) 04:20, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• When or why an editor chooses to restart editing is his or her decision. Wikipedia editors are volunteers. They may edit as they please, so long as it is does in good faith. I believe that the points I (and others) have raised on the Kulinski AfD and the Sanders AfD two weeks ago were reasonable, sound and civil. A small subset of trolls were indeed present, but they were swiftly removed by KidAd. CompactSpacez (talk) 04:24, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Thank you, I try my best. Regardless of your reasoning, your return to Wikipedia after two years to actively participate in two active, controversial pages will remain suspect. Still, this ANI thread is about the Kulinski AFD, and Media bias against Bernie Sanders should remain a separate issue. I have purposely stayed away from that page's drama for a reason. KidAd (talk) 04:33, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• To be on the safe side, I have s-protected the discussion (which is a helpful option when a discussion is flooded with new editors unfamiliar with Wikipedia standards). BD2412 T 03:45, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Your precautionary protection is slightly odd, there weren't that many non-constructive IP-edits on the project page. Now the closing admin will not only have to wade through some "sorted" AFD-page with lots of December 16 comments before December 12, but also has to check the talk page for new arguments, i.e., not the 1001th repetition of 700K subscribers or Justice Democrats. –84.46.53.194 (talk) 23:36, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Not necessary. The closing admin can disregard IP comments as unlikely to be relevantly informed. BD2412 T 00:06, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

They can do lots of things, but pulling IAR over policy while using elevated rights is an abuse of power. –84.46.53.194 (talk) 18:50, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• User:CompactSpacez needs to be removed from areas of conflict, clearly; but how? A Tban? But from what—BLPs, ARBAP2, XfD? That's too much for a simple topic ban, so unfortunately they must be indefinitely blocked. ——SN54129 13:43, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Well. KidAd (I'm a big fan of Kid A, but that's another matter), thank you for linking this edit by CompactSpacez, which is worth citing, at least in part: "As for your other points, note that while I am of course critical of boomers, I must say that millennials need to be held responsible for making "whataboutism" a common parlance. This is just a semantic trick used to justify hypocrisy and selective censorship. The standards need to be the same across the board; you can't have different standards for your political opponents, like Kyle." Not only do we have there a bunch of FORUM-y nonsense about boomers and whatnot; moreover, if I read this correctly it says that "Kyle" is KidAd's political opponent and because KidAd is a millennial they apply different standards in articles depending on whether they like the subject or not. That's a violation of NPA, of NPOV, of AGF, of a bunch of things. (I'm skipping over the ridiculous justification for that anti-semitic smear.) And that comes within an hour of my warning them for a personal attack, a note they reverted without commentary. I am inclined to block them indefinitely, but for now I'm blocking for a week, for the duration of the AfD I suppose, so at least that disruption will stop.

Why not indefinitely? Good question. It's their first block, and I could be wrong. The other day I blocked someone for a short period, and Black Kite thought I was being too lenient. If that's the case here, I think CompactSpacez will either run out of rope soon, or someone else will overrule and make it indefinite. Drmies (talk) 16:47, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• @Drmies: First, thank you for being one of the first to understand my username. Second, I think a 1-week block is a good place to start. The best thing for an editor like this is to step away and think about why they edit. If they return in a week's time (which will be right in the thick of the holiday season when many editors are spending time with their families) and continue to display WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and disregard for WP:NPOV, I think a longer block or indef will be appropriate. In part, I can relate to CompactSpacez, and was given numerous chances by admins and other editors to shape up my behavior. I hope that CompactSpacez can return as a productive editor. KidAd (talk) 18:59, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Whether or not the Kulinski article ends up deleted or made into a re-direct, isn't something that'll make me loose sleep. I was just upset that another editor at that AFD was messing around with my 'vote', via relocating it against my objections. GoodDay (talk) 19:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

@GoodDay: I would like to formally apologize if I did move your vote during all the excitement yesterday. It was not my intention, and I apologize if my accidental re-order of your vote gave you the impression that your vote was lessened in some way. I was only trying to weed out trolling and repeated vandalism from IPs and SPAs, and there were many more of them than editors trying to maintain the page's structure. Sorry again. KidAd (talk) 19:59, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I believe that it was @Snooganssnoogans:, who was doing it. GoodDay (talk) 20:04, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated nominations of my articles for deletion

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BlameRuiner (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly nominating some of my artciles on women's footballers for deleteion although the sportswomen are international and currently playing in the Turkish top-level league. I had noticed him in his talk page about the status. It takes me valuable time to adress the matter. I belive he is not experienced enough and has too much time for doing nonsense. Please help.CeeGee 08:49, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

CeeGee (talk · contribs) seems to be having a hard time understanding the notability criteria defined in WP:NFOOTY, as well as the definition of Fully-professional league and international footballer (which in scope of FOOTY project means a player that appeared in Tier 1 International Match, as defined by FIFA, in a competitive senior international match at confederation level, same for managers and referees). The key word here is senior, which means not under-21 or under-anything else. --BlameRuiner (talk) 09:12, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• @CeeGee: I see nothing here that requires administrative action. BlameRuiner has made good-faith nominations for deletion of articles that he feels do not meet the notability criteria at WP:NFOOTY. I'd suggest you either locate reliable sources that show that the Turkish women's top-level league is fully professional or generate consensus at the football WikiProject to make players in top-level women's leagues notable whether the league is fully professional or not. In either case, those are matters of content and not things that needs to be addressed to administrators. —C.Fred (talk) 16:05, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• OK. Thanks for the clarification. CeeGee 10:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

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Fictitious flag added on the basis of a bad source

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• Zazas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Two users (perhaps puppets of some kind) insist on adding a fictitious flag as the ethnic map for Zazas[69][70] using a random reference (who is this James B. Minahan?) as source. Surely, it won't be difficult finding a reliable source for an ethnic flag. --Semsurî (talk) 13:02, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

What was the result of the discussion you held on the article talk page regarding this issue? --Jayron32 13:26, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Experience tells me that there is no use in encouraging users to use the talkpage if they are keen on pushing for their POV. They usually just explain their move and go ahead and change the article again. --Semsurî (talk) 13:31, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

If you can't be bothered to even try to work it out on your own, why should admins need to step in to help? This is never to be the first place you go to solve a content dispute. We're here to handle behavioral issues, not decide who's version of a particular article is more correct. The first thing to do is to try to solve it among yourselves by having a friendly discussion, and if your attitude is "I don't want to talk to anyone because I don't think it would help", well, I'm not sure you're going to get much help with that attitude. --Jayron32 13:35, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

James Minahan seems to have a bad reputation at Talk:Stateless nation, but what you should do is raise the issue on the article's talk page or at WP:RSN. If the consensus there is that Minahan should not be cited, you'll have consensus on your side. Admins will then enforce it through blocks if necessary. If both sides edit war over this with no attempt at dispute resolution or discussion, the page will likely be fully protected (or someone will end up blocked). NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:42, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I've started a new section on the Zazas talkpage and will take a look at WP:RSN. --Semsurî (talk) 13:59, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for doing so. I earnestly hope you can work out a solution that benefits the encyclopedia. --Jayron32 15:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cathytalledo

• Cathytalledo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – On User talk:Migsmigss: I placed a warning on this user's talk page hoping to arrive at a dispute resolution, but this user only copied and pasted my warning on my talk page, complete with my own signature, as could be seen here and here. This user has also consistently blanked their talk page, without engaging and trying to resolve disputes and issues raised by other editors, as could be seen here and here. Trying to engage in a reasonable and respectful dispute resolution and discussion with this user is impossible. Thanks.Migsmigss (talk) 16:04, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• I've not ever encountered the above user, but I note some serious incivility problems in their edit summaries, just on the first page of their contributions list. They repeatedly use words like "fake" and "vandalism" and "useless" to characterize things others have added, for example here where they claimed to remove vandalism, where all they did remove some information from a reference tag and here where I see no vandalism in the text they removed or changed. The use of the word "vandalism" should not be done in this manner. --Jayron32 16:31, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

This editor has been blocked for edit warring. I agree that their conduct falls below the level of respect and civility that is expected of users here, as well as the level of communication that's expected when a dispute occurs. I think that we should leave the user a custom message summarizing the issues and concerns and with clear expectations set. Sure, the user will likely blank their user talk page and remove it without care, but we'll at least have given them a fair warning and an opportunity to resolve these matters. Then if this user is "put through the gauntlet" (indef'd), we'll have plenty of evidence to provide that will show that we repeatedly tried other means and allocated legitimate effort and time toward trying to help the user resolve these issues, and to no avail. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:48, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

‎Staszek Lem and unilateral merges of Donajowsky

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• Donajowsky (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Preobrazhensky Regiment (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Staszek Lem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In Auguste, Staszek Lem merged twice Donajowsky to Preobrazhensky Regiment [71] [72] claiming there is no useful independent content. I reverted them both times, drawing their attention to the fact that this is not a policy-based reason, and since I objected the merge has to go through the merge request. We had some heated exchange at the talk page but no merge request has ever been opened, and, as a consequence, no other editors opined at the talk page. Today they merged the article again, [73], and, when I reverted them pointing out the absence of consensus, reverted me [74] saying that I (?) can not wait for consensus forever. I mean, I am not morally attached to this article, but I do not think anybody can just come and merge it ignoring objections. I would appreciate if the situation is reverted back and the user is advised to start a merge request if they really insist on merging the article.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:10, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

False and misleading complaint. After first disagreement with Ymblanter I did file merge request an explained in talk page. re: merge it ignoring objections - The merge request was posted in August. There were no arguments in favor of keeping this contentless article (99,5% of it was about different subject, namely the march in question, March of the Preobrazhensky Regiment) nor rebutting my arguments but for wikilawyering. Time for discussion was enough. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:16, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

claiming there is no useful independent content. I reverted them both times, drawing their attention to the fact that this is not a policy-based reason -- this is sooo ridiculous logic I doubt Ymblanter is fit to be an admin. If the article titled XXXX is in fact 99% about YYYY, what policy do you want? Staszek Lem (talk) 20:33, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Seriously, can I propose to delete any article, wait for four months, and then delete it against objections saying that there were no arguments? Is this your understanding of WP:CONSENSUS?--Ymblanter (talk) 20:28, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Seriously????? The article was MERGED, after a rsonable time waiting for real objections . If you do not see the difference, you are demonstrating unfintess and admin again. against objections - there was no objections besides WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:33, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, sure, if I do not agree with you, I am unfit to be admin. You know, you are not the first person saying this. I hope someone else will look into this.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:36, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, sure, false accusations again. You are unfit because you appear to see no difference between deletion and merging and falsely accusing me of deleting the article. I hope someone else will look into this. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:41, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

You are right though that you created a merge request, I confused it with WP:RM where a template is required. I have striken my statement above.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Let me clarify further, by the ways of wikilawyering. You may easily see that after I posted the merge request 4 months ago, I was the only person who commented on the article. Therefore there is 100% consensus in favor of merge. As admins are supposed to know, discussions are not voting.Staszek Lem (talk) 20:47, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, let me clarifiy as well. You edit-warred, then you opened a talk page discussion (making a number of irrelevant statement including that I inflate my edit count). You dismissed my objections. Then you decided that since you dismissed my objections then you are the only person in favor of the merging, and there is nobody opposing the merging. Therefore the discussion is not contentious, and the provision of WP:MERGE that a neutral user must close the discussion does not apply. Then you merged the article and edit-warred when I reverted the merging. This is apparently your understanding of WP:CONSENSUS.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:02, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

False again. You did not present any objections besides "you cannot just do it". And I didn't "just did it": I did start merge discussion, and no counter-arguments followed. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• It might be a good idea for Ymblanter and Staszek Lem to step back from this for a few hours (or even days) and let other people discuss this. You have both stated your positions and discussion between the two of you is obviously going nowhere, and whatever point of view you might have about this it's not such an urgent issue that it needs to be resolved immediately. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:25, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

  This is exactly my point - we need to revert it to the pre-dispute condition, see what other users have to say, and then have a neutral user closing the discussion.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:29, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

  Sorry, other users had 4 months for this. And you did not provide any article-based argument. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:44, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• (not my clown car, not my circus, but following a quick look - ) Seems to me that Staszek Lem has the right of it here. They did open a merge discussion (with correct tagging etc.), and laid out their reasons for a merge, to which Ymblanter did not provide any counter-arguments aside from "you can't just do that". Well, they sure can just do that - any editor can perform a reasoned merge on their own cognisance; to object you actually have to present some applicable reasons, which I'm not seeing here. SL then waited a few months for further input, in the absence of which they performed the merge. My take is that if Ymblanter wants that not to happen, they had best make some useful arguments that way. It's something of a surprise to see an admin sitting on a WP:IDONTLIKEIT position here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 21:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

  Well, I just do not find the arguments reasonable. One can merge any article into everything else citing arguments of this sort. Like New York City into the United States of America. The article has (well, used to have, before it was merged) sources, which are normally sufficient for independent notability. This is not my point though. My point is that it is not ok for a user who opened a discussion to close it.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

  it is not ok for a user who opened a discussion to close it. - it is perfectly OK. I've been doing this many times with no harassment. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:50, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

To prevent further wasting other people's time, I am self-reverting and asking any other person to review` [[|the merge discussion and close it. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:50, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• (after edit conflicts) The fact that both Ymblanter and Staszek Lem chose to make further edits after mine just shows that this is a childish playground Russian-Polish spat, rather than a serious issue that either party is interested in being resolved by neutral editors. Just shut the fuck up, both of you. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I rather agree with Phil here....You both should know better. As for the opener of a discussion closing it several months later after no further participation by anyone else, I see no problem with it. If you had commented Ymblanter, it would have been different. You let that ship sail. John from Idegon (talk) 21:56, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
    • And I disagree with Phil here. Also, who is fucking he to tell me "the fuck up"? I would not stand false accusations. Besides, I have self-reverted already. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:06, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Phil, I agree in spirit but please don't tell other editors to "shut the fuck up". At this point, people are now aware of the issue. Nothing should be done till more input is given. Lem, Wikipedia is not a race. You don't have to rush to merge it if there is no consensus to do so. Neither you nor Ymblanter should be deciding what that outcome is anymore. If you still haven't gotten further opinions, start a request for comment and start bringing in people who edit in the topic area. There's no reason for hostility. Slow down, everyone. 2001:4898:80E8:9:AAC3:CA77:40C2:12C (talk) 22:56, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

You are preaching without understanding what's going on. How can there be freaking "no consensus", if nobody was discussing the freaking article? Don't have to rush? - I was waiting for 4 freaking months! Staszek Lem (talk) 00:40, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• Would have closed it as merge. Have not seen any reasonable objection at the discussion or here to say otherwise. Independant closers are only needed if the discussion is unclear or controversial in some way. Neither applies here. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
• Lem, it's probably not best to claim consensus over an un-advertised merge discussion that featured only two participants. That 'consensus' was really just you agreeing with yourself while Ymblanter refrained from commenting on the merits of a merge. The article in question was receiving roughly 2-4 page views per day prior to this ANI filing, so it's hardly surprising that nobody else weighed in at the merge discussion. Ymblanter, this would be a good time to stop commenting on the other contributor and explain why you are opposed to the merge. Lepricavark (talk) 13:40, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

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User:ClueBot NG is malfunctioning

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_4Licensing_Corporation_licenses_and_productions

This article has incorrect info. 4Kids did NOT license or produce Blue's Clues and You! or Butterbean's Cafe. They didn't produce Rocket Monkeys either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.13.4 (talk) 01:29, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I don’t see that Cluebot has ever edited that article but aside from that, the article would benefit from some sourcing imo but that’s an editing matter rather than a administrative matter. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:47, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Removed the clear fakes; Cluebot had nothing to do with this at all. Nate • (chatter) 02:47, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

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Spam sockpuppet

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User:Jumanji Next Level 2019 online streaming is a sockpuppet of User:Jasjasn - both creating spam user-pages to "free" download sites offering the same movie to download. I can't file an SPI case because the title is blacklisted. But this seems like an open-and-shut case per WP:DUCK. Could someone please block both? Thanks, The Mirror Cracked (talk) 05:08, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

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Long-term abuse from the socks of certain Umertan

I looked into the contribution of the edit warrior and I think this is an IP-sock of Themanhascome, who is the sock of UkrainianSavior who is the sock of Umertan.

I also do not understand the meaning of the actions of El_C in this article. After the anon deleted the source and made a new, dubious statement in the long-time stable article [75], El_C protected this article [76], advised me to go to RSN [77], and when I reported the facts indicating sock-puppeting [78], he just stopped responding. Or did I missed some changes in Wiki-policies?--Nicoljaus (talk) 13:12, 18 December 2019 (UTC) You are mistaken, I am not a sock puppet of anyone. I explained myself very clearly on the talk page of Aeroflot Flight 1492. You were using a source from TASS, a state owned Russian news outlet that is known for spreading disinformation, and I rightfully deleted it. You also posted a link to the Moscow Times website, claiming it stated the name of a witness to the accident, when in fact it did not. 2601:143:4200:E070:4567:A17C:CCF1:F517 (talk) 02:40, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• One of the articles the IP was warring on has already been semi-protected, and I have done the same for the other one. Either there is some meatpuppetry involved or they appear to be using two separate ranges, one IPv4 and one IPv6, so protecting may be better than rangeblocking at the moment. Black Kite (talk) 13:38, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks! But the second article was full-protected [79], not semi-protected.--Nicoljaus (talk) 13:36, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

88.111.132.24

Talk page access has been revoked. —C.Fred (talk) 15:24, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

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• 88.111.132.24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

After making 2 unblock requests that were declined, the IP decided to blank and mass spam the entire talk page. Please revoke talk page access. Thanks. theinstantmatrix (talk) 14:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Someone needs to revoke access. The IP just copied and pasted my entire userpage. I don't know what else to do. EDIT: They have now started to copy me. Please help. I can't do much beyond reverting. ☶☲Senny☶☲ (☎) 15:00, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Administrator intervention is needed here, and swiftly. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 15:04, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

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Spam from Privatesecrate

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User:Privatesecrate has been adding https://www.dskastrology.com/ask-astrologer-ask-question/ to astrology-related articles. As far as I can tell it does not actually provide the information indicate in the edit summary, but rather promotes the services of one or more astrologers. I have reverted two of the additions but do not wish to violate the three revert rule so ask others to examine the rest.

I reverted Cancer (astrology) and Gemini (astrology).

That leaves Aries (astrology) and Taurus (astrology).

Jc3s5h (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Jc3s5h, WP:3RR only applies to reverts within the same article and doesn't prevent removing multiple instances of spam across different articles. Also, I see at that link that it's the site of "Astrologer Deepanshu Singh Kushwaha", and User:Privatesecrat identifies himself on his talk page as "deepanshu singh kushwaha", so there's an obvious COI/PAID violation here. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

After being warned about the edits and this discussion, the editor has continued to add the spam. The most recent edit makes no attempt to fit into the article; it amounts to graffiti. I believe, at this point, more than just deleting edits is called for. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:04, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

That's pretty well cooked their goose then  :) For info, Jc3s5h blatant spamming can be reported to WP:AIV, which sometimes gets a faster response (some admins avoid this board like the plague...perhaps understandably!). ——SN54129 18:09, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I just indeffed them, looking at the edits and their past vandalism, they're clearly not here to build an encyclopaedia. Canterbury Tail talk 18:45, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

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Partial appeal

I was recently T-banned for articles relating to the Knights of Columbus. While I disagree, I respect the consensus of the community and intend to abide by it. As I don't typically engage in these types of conversations, I am not entirely sure what is appropriate and what isn't. (I'm not even certain this is the right place to make the following request.)

However, I would like to appeal the block of the talk pages so that I might make suggestions, similar to a WP:PP. If my idea has merit, a non-banned editor can make the change. If it doesn't, they won't. For example, the Knights was founded to provide insurance for members and has grown into a Fortune 1000 company. However, there is almost no mention of it after the entire section, after being largely trimmed, was deleted. It seems odd to me that a major insurance company wouldn't talk at all about its insurance operation and would like to be able to suggest another editor add content related to it. I don't want to violate my ban, just make a few good faith suggestions. --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 21:44, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1025#TBAN_for_Slugger_O%27Toole

You were T-banned three days ago. I think it's entirely inappropriate for you to be asking this three days after being banned. Prove that you can work in other areas first. 2001:4898:80E8:F:B6E4:2EDB:363E:5BD9 (talk) 22:47, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Slugger O'Toole, a good part of the rationale for the TBAN was your stonewalling on Talk. I suggest you sit back at least until the article has stabilised with the current cleanup. Guy (help!) 23:44, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Slugger O'Toole, I'm sorry about your ban. Since it's only been a few days this is premature and unlikely to pass, but if you are willing to continue editing in other unrelated areas for some time I would support scaling back the ban in a little while. Michepman (talk) 03:18, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Slugger O'Toole, I reccomend you edit elsewhere, and come back after (at least) 6 months of good behavior. I know topic bans don't feel good, but they'll do you good in the long run. If you show that you can abide by the community's wishes, you should have the ban lifted without too much fuss. However, if you break it, even accidentally, beware that the community might never lift it. I reccomend you stay as far away as possible from your topic ban until this storm blows over. But I do wish you the best, and smooth sailing, Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 08:34, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Per all of the above, 3 days is not enough time to demonstrate that you've learned to work with others better. I would recommend as well that the spirit of WP:SO is followed, and you wait at least 6 months before asking for a modification to your ban. --Jayron32 12:59, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, Jayron, Captain Eek, and Michepman. Even after more than 10 years of editing, this is largely unfamiliar terrain for me. I was unaware there was a WP:SO. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 14:18, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Slugger O'Toole I'd also caution you not to push the same kind of self-sourced and related references to add UNDUE or misleading content to Harvard Extension School. That kind of conduct is going to be scrutinized in the future if you ever appeal the TBAN. SPECIFICO talk 14:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Jkg1997 is STILL doing Filedelinkerbot/CommonsDelinker's work

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• Jkg1997 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1025#Jkg1997 is doing Filedelinkerbot/CommonsDelinker's work

Jkg1997 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After the thread was archived, Jkg1997 just continued! @EdJohnston and Phil Bridger: clearly nothing got through. Thanks Vycl1994 for notifying me about this. - Alexis Jazz 22:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done per discussion, Some uploading copyvio files on Commons that linked to Wikipedia directly, because of plagiarism Why? because of suspected users severely of uploading copyrighted files on Commons, does not followed the instructions on Commons:Licensing policy. Therefore, on this statement in the Description file page says “Own work” by suspected user. It means the files taken or stolen from social media sites like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. The user successfully uploading copyvio files, it is possible to get plagiarized. Jkg1997 (talk • contribs • CA) 02:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

You can't decide what does and doesn't get done. Struck. Please block Jkg1997, I'll request a global lock after that because this user clearly doesn't understand anything. See also Special:Diff/931466102. - Alexis Jazz 02:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

@Jkg1997: Repeat of my unanswered questions at archived ANI report linked above. Why are you doing Filedelinkerbot's work? Has there been a discussion somewhere (here or at Commons) suggesting that Filedelinkerbot needs help?

Given Jkg1997's use of English, there may be no explanation and an indefinite block would be needed to avoid future disruption. Any thoughts? Johnuniq (talk) 04:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

It appears that Jkg1997 does not understand what people are saying here, and is determined to continue this disruption. Given that this editor appears to do nothing else on English Wikipedia a block would seem to be the easiest solution here. I would add that the "en-4" template on the user page, which I previously took at face value, appears to be a pretty big exaggeration. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:09, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I blocked Jkg1997 indefinitely. That is needed due to the combination of making disruptive edits and being unable to explain them. Johnuniq (talk) 09:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• Just a note that on their userpage, where I'd expect care to be taken in things one wishes to say, the opening statement says "I have busy for my work due to past anytime, but if needed some update the articles." That's surely automated translation, the "en-4" userbox is blatantly false, and this is someone who does not possess the language competence to work on the English Wikipedia at all. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:06, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

The cats have taken over. ——SN54129 10:50, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• Image copyright/licensing issues are often complex/confusing for editors. The last thing needed is an editor who doesn't properly understand them making swathes of less than competent edits which they are obviously unable to explain if necessary. It's fair to say I have above average experience in this area, but there is no way I would contemplate making this kind of edit in such a wholesale manner on a project where I was not fluent in the language and customs - that would be madness, and if I attempted that I'd expect to be quickly blocked there on a CIR basis if nothing else. It's a shame that a block was necessary, but sometimes it really is the only sensible option - thanks to Johnuniq for taking the necessary action. -- Begoon 11:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• The editor has been blocked, so can someone who knows how please close this? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:04, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

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• I'm not sure if I should reopen or just reply below this discussion, but.. m:Steward requests/Global#Global lock for my account (Jkg1997) (which refers to WP:KAGE) and m:User:Jkg1997. (note the page history: Jkg1997 is the only contributor)

This is weird, right? - Alexis Jazz 07:27, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

It seems to be claiming they are a sock of an LTA. Perhaps someone familiar with that case could do any paperwork, although the indef seems enough. Johnuniq (talk) 10:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Persistent removal of content - rejected at AIV, so bringing here

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Bayfone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Vandalism after final warning. Destructively removing archive details from references/links despite requests to stop/explain - ignores all warnings/requests to communicate. Aside from a couple of other unhelpful edits the account has basically done nothing except dozens of these destructive removals, so pretty much a vandalism only account, by any definition. Rejected by ToBeFree as not obvious vandalism... I'm not sure what vandalism is if persistent destructive removal of large, useful parts of our referencing content, refusal to discuss in any way, and ignoring all warnings isn't it. -- Begoon 11:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  For context about the rejection, see the "Bayfone" entry at Special:PermanentLink/931526647. For context about the "habit" alleged there, see Special:Diff/927151671, the only other occurrence I am aware of. Thanks for bringing this to ANI instead. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:05, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  No, thank you... I simply love being forced to waste my time repeating my posts to get action taken against an obviously damaging editor who refuses to discuss why they are causing damage, and whose destructive edits I have spent substantial time defending against, with effort invested to give them the benefit of the doubt and explain the seemingly inexplicable (most people wouldn't bother with that).

  From the AIV discussion you link you have clearly misunderstood the bulk of their edits - they are, in almost all cases, removing useful archive information destructively, particularly, it seems, archive.org, for some unexplained reason - not "replacing a link with another link" or whatever other nonsense you put forward there - See Help:Using the Wayback Machine and WP:DEADLINK and do try to examine the facts, please... Removing useful archive links can never be a "good idea" - how could it ever be a good idea to reduce the readers' options for verification of a link which may one day become inaccessible? Common sense surely makes that "idea" nonsense.

  Every time you try to reject a valid report like that it does make me a little warmer inside, but I'm just worried I might overheat, so if you could see your way clear not to "help" me like that in future I'd appreciate it. -- Begoon 13:07, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  This isn't helpful as it destroys what was the specific ref source to a general category. Removing the dead URLs with the archive links hurts because it essentially makes the text unsourced. That seems to be the bulk of their editing. That combined with not talking to anyone about it isn't good for the encyclopedia. spryde | talk 13:51, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Thanks. That's obvious, as, I would hope, is what I said above. ToBeFree, I guess, doesn't like me because I alleged someone was a sockpuppet and they disagreed. I may have been wrong and I may have been right - I think I was right, but so what - they made some unjustified deletions to my talkpage at the time, and I didn't object because I didn't want to upset them, and the SPI was done. If they want to pursue this grudge further, though - it'll be hard for me to be so understanding about what seems like abuse of admin rights any more.

  If I'm honest, though - all that can wait - we should just block the editor deleting useful content - or am I being too simplistic? -- Begoon 14:04, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Begoon, before you wrote "smh again", I did not have the RFPP decline in mind. Before your comment here made me have a look at your talk page archive, I also did not remember Special:Diff/891833374. It may seem strange to you, but I was honestly unaware of our previous interactions each time I declined one of your reports. Now that you have mentioned your talk page, though, I can finally understand where your suspicion comes from. It is incorrect, even now; there is no reason for me not to like you. To prevent this understandable impression of hounding, I will do my best not to respond to further noticeboard reports made by you, unless they are about an incident I was involved in. Please do remind me if I forget this; I'm serious about this offer. I definitely do not intend to upset you.

  The full diff is Special:Diff/917558513/931471648, which replaces a redirect to the home page by at least a specific category. The only copies available of the page in the Internet Archive, dating back to 2012-03-08, are redirects to the home page. It is really only the refusal of discussion that worries me here, not the good-faith attempts at fixing references. I do not object to a block, but please don't use "Vandalism" as the block reason. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Sorry. I don't believe you. You're a poor admin, you hold evident grudges, and I wish I'd opposed you at RFA. -- Begoon 14:26, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Please, Begoon. There can never be evidence for a non-existent grudge. You're a fine editor, your report does have merit, and you're welcome to ask for a recall at User:ToBeFree/recall if my behavior during the first year is unacceptable to you. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Don't condescend. Others can judge. I'm not advocating removal of your admin tools right now. I might, after I think about all this, but it won't be in the unconsidered, evidence-free mode that you thought you could deal with me when I do. Think on. Have you blocked the obvious vandal yet? -- Begoon 14:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Begoon, you’re being a complete asshole in this conversation. Please take the olive branch. – Levivich 15:24, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• I understand the interpretation that the user is trying to fix references. The removal of archive links isn't helpful, but all instances I saw where they did that were when the original link was incorrectly labeled as dead (probably it was dead at some point in the past). I agree that this isn't vandalism (in the sense of deliberately trying to make things worse). However, the user is making some things worse, and they need to stop that. I suggest to block after (a) somebdoy explained to them why what they were doing was wrong and (b) they then do that again. (They received a link to Wikipedia:Vandalism, which does not explain at all why their edit was wrong, so it is no wonder they are continuing). From Wikipedia:Vandalism: "For that reason, avoid using the term "vandalism" unless it is clear the user means to harm Wikipedia". —Kusma (t·c) 15:00, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  There's no way the edits improve the encyclopedia. A description of vandalism is perfectly justified. -- Begoon 15:16, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Actually not so much. The only time you should call edits vandalism is where the user's intent is clearly to harm Wikipedia. As noted above, there is the possibility that the user thinks they are being helpful. So long as a user thinks they are being useful, you should never call their edits vandalism. That doesn't mean the person should be allowed to continue, just that unless it is obvious to everyone that they are trying to be harmful, you should seek other forms of redress. --Jayron32 16:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  You may describe it as vandalism, but it is not vandalism. —Kusma (t·c) 15:21, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Begoon, ok, you actually described the problem to the user in plaintext a week ago, so I see your point better now. My apologies. As the user has stopped for the day, I chose to give another semi-handcrafted final warning (using DE, not vandalism as reason), but I am happy to block them on the next edit. —Kusma (t·c) 16:34, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  You receive a special bonus for eventually, actually reading the evidence. You seem to be unique here in that respect. Yes, I'd taken the time to explain the issue to the user in detail - that's really the whole point here - that they continued regardless is the vandalism. I'm extremely pissed off by this whole incident, and the wagon-circling to play down a very poor, plainly grudge driven, "admin" action at AIV, but your apology is, at least, appreciated. Thank you. -- Begoon 00:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• Not all disruptive editing is vandalism; This might warrant a block for refusing to communicate, but even then... I' not convinced. This seems very much like a user who just doesn't understand how to use their Talk page - that's pretty common, and honestly a failing on our part as a community more than theirs as a new user trying to contribute. Begoon - I can't say your tone here reflects well on you, at all. Your report does have merit, but the information kidna gets lost in the noise of you flinging shit at ToBeFree. Calm down, approach this from what's best for the encylopaedia rather than the idea that some admin holds a grudge against you. -- a ^{they/them | argue | contribs} 15:31, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Huh? -- Begoon 15:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Let me try to explain it, Begoon. Vandalism is not a word that should be used to describe every type of disruptive editing. It is reserved for ONLY that type of editing which only has, as its purpose, to damage Wikipedia, things like inserting gibberish or random swear words in Wikipedia articles. Reports at AIV may be regularly declined if, in the opinion of the admin who happens to respond, that the editing does not appear to them to be obvious vandalism. That doesn't mean it is good editing, just that the venue of WP:AIV is not particularly well suited towards dealing with forms of disruption that are not really obvious vandalism like that. The rule of thumb you should follow is that any time that the editing needs any kind of lengthy explanation of what is wrong with it, AIV is probably not the locale to handle it. That does NOT MEAN that the person causing the disruption shouldn't be blocked, it just means that you should try somewhere else like here to deal with it instead. Also, since there are hundreds of admins, not every admin will deal with everything exactly the same way. Some admins will see something as obvious, and another may not. This is also not a huge issue here at ANI, where we can discuss things, but at AIV, where discussion really doesn't happen, if a report gets declined, it doesn't mean anything about you. It just means that ANI may be a better venue to handle blocking the person in question. I hope that explanation makes sense to you, since you found Alfie's explanation above confusing. --Jayron32 16:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Not really. It's clearly vandalism because it's clearly persistent damage to content, deliberate, and malicious. I'm extremely pissed off about this whole incident, and "circling the wagons" doesn't help. As a result I'm reconsidering my participation here as a whole. When my genuine efforts to protect this encyclopedia are rebuffed by an "admin" with an obvious grudge, and the reactions are similar to this, then it doesn't make me inclined to continue to donate any more time or effort. There have been other recent posts here about the futility of criticising admin actions at ANI because of this "wagon circling" tendency, and I strongly sympathise with that sentiment. -- Begoon 23:59, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• I agree removing the archive.org links is disruptive but not vandalism. If the editor continues to remove the links, a block may be necessary to prevent the disruption until they engage on their talk page. Hard to swallow that TBF is holding a grudge by properly declining a bad AIV report, or by agreeing to avoid Begoon's reports in the future, the latter of which certainly doesn't seem very grudge-like. I'm glad Begoon brought attention to this disruption, but next time I'd thank him to employ fewer personal attacks. – Levivich 01:44, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

  Levivich, "you’re being a complete asshole in this conversation". That's not unexpected, I've seen you in action. Please keep your nonsensical views on who has made "personal attacks" to yourself (if keeping anything to yourself in a conversation of no concern to you is a concept you can grasp - which I rather doubt). -- Begoon 01:52, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

  Thanks, that's better, but I'd ask future posts to have even fewer personal attacks than that. But good start! – Levivich 01:54, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

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Concerning Wikipedia lb sysop named “Les Meloures”

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Please wikipedia admins, help the luxembourgish community to deactivate the sysop status on lb:Wiki of Les Meloures, because his objections are neither friendly nor helpful, his language is rude, his arguments are unfounded and his contribution is not constructive. Thank You for helping Wikipedia lb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:7E8:C983:7700:749C:2685:4671:4423 (talk) 15:41, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Admins here have no authority over the Luxembourgish Wikipedia. If the issue can't be resolved there then you will need to ask for help from a steward at Meta. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

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Problematic user adding unsourced info

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This user, despite numerous pleas from myself and other editors on their talk page, continues to add unsourced info to articles. This and this made after 2 recent final warnings. They have been warned many times by several users and to date have yet to respond in any constructive or collaborative way on their talk page to these concerns. Please could an admin remind this user about the importance of WP:V as warnings don't seem to be working. Robvanvee 15:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

That user has never, not once, engaged in a conversation over their edits ever, and has had numerous opportunities to do so. I have blocked the user pending their response. Once they have agreed to discuss the problems, I will unblock them. Any other admin can also unblock them once they agree to discuss their editing and stop adding unsourced information. The greatest issue is the refusal to communicate; if they were actively discussing this, I would not have blocked. --Jayron32 16:41, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Jayron32, I too hope for a positive outcome from this situation. Robvanvee 16:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I, as well. --Jayron32 16:59, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but looking at the young gentleman's Talk Page; it seems as though not one experienced WP editor ever pinged the user to alert him to the page even. In deciphering his username and user page, he seems very young: 11? I would hope that assumptions were not at play here by "experienced" WP editors who think that everyone knows how it works around here. Looking at his edits, they are far from vandalism, and seemed to be worthy of inclusion: a young editor who wishes to contribute but doesn't know how? Certainly not one who is capable of taking on the editors who are experienced enough to block in a discussion. Also, the user's Talk Page is far from discussion entering for him. They are nearly all statements, notifications, scolding, action taken in retrospect; none of which require any back-and-forth from the user. The November 2019 was far from helpful, as the internal link didn't even show what source was in question: just a blatant block message on his page. I also see that no discussion was brought up on the Talk Pages about the unsourced edits; and even the summary did not engage conversation. Maybe I'm wrong, but it would have been nice to see more "pings" on that Talk Page; even from the one who blocked him and placed the November 2019. I'm trying to find exactly where these "numerous opportunities to do so" can be found? BTW: I do not, as an editor, find this at all helpful to the situation: "You seem to think WP:V doesn't apply to you. Let's see if admin at WP:ANI agree with you." Not very noble; especially if he is only 11 years old. The young man only joined in July 2019. Just my opinion on the matter. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Is a user under 13 allowed to create a username? Thought US Law required parental permission.

Slywriter (talk) 17:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Guide for Young Editors at WP Maineartists (talk) 18:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

His account is 14 years old. So he'd only be 11 if he started editing as a negative 3 year old. If, instead, we presume he was editing at the precious age of 4, he'd still be old enough to be considered an adult under U.S. law. So no, he's not 11. He's an adult. --Jayron32 18:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

He is not 11 years old – his earliest edits are from 2005. (I'm trying to work out why you thought he joined in July 2019 – maybe you were looking at his 500 most recent contributions without noticing that there are older contributions than that? That has happened to me before...) --bonadea contributions talk 18:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

11 years old? Wow that's quite an assumption. So was he 11 when he created the account 5 years ago and therefore 16 now? or was he 6 when he created the account and therefore 11 now (if my maths is correct)? Are you saying with the extensive 5 year experience and 10k plus edits he hasn't figured out how to use his talk page yet? Are you saying that with over 350 messages to his talk page he hasn't once had a red notification at the top of his page? I'll admit my remark on his talk page was a low point but ffs this has been going on for so long with repeated explanatory reversion edit summaries. If you can't be bothered when does one say enough is enough. I think this user has been given a very fair block. Jayron32 has given them the opportunity to show that they can work collaboratively as well as reliably source their edits at which point the block will be lifted. Robvanvee 18:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Wait, am I looking at the right user? The user linked from the first post has been an editor since 2005, for more than 14 years! If he were 11 years old then (which, as you say, we have no real reason to assume), he'd be 25 now. And he has posted to his talk page once, this dismissive comment in 2006. (And also blanked a bunch of warnings and other posts from it.) I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me here, but fwiw I agree with the block. --bonadea contributions talk 18:16, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

OK. I obviously was missing something. I'm not experienced as y'all. I didn't know how to manage past a certain date like bonadea. I only saw the existing Talk Page and contributions that displayed when I clicked 500. My assumption was incorrect. My apologies. Always trying to look for the good in people. Maineartists (talk) 18:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)So are we. Blocking them doesn't mean we don't think they are a good person. Just that the account the person is running is doing something that needs to be stopped for the time being. Also, the good person can get their account unblocked simply by starting a discussion on their user talk page and assuring us they understand the nature of the problem and that they intend to fix the problems they have been causing. --Jayron32 18:25, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) According to the revision history of his userpage, he was 14 in December 2006, meaning he'd be 27 now.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

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Possible Sockpuppetry by TheSource2.7

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In the account creation log, I noticed a user called TheSourceBot2.7, who is now blocked for a username violation. I believe this same person has come back under the very similar username TheSource2.7. What can I do about this? ☶☲Senny☶☲ (☎) 19:33, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I'd suggest taking this to SPI if you really think there is a link. But, per Bbb23, you should wait until a) they edit and b) you can confirm there is disruption. Kirbanzo ^{(userpage - talk - contribs)} 19:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  Even if it is the same person, it's just a username soft block and starting a new account is permissible (as Bbb23 said). So it's not a sock. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:35, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

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WP:COMPETENCE discussion about User:Weelandlka

• Weelandlka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I would like to start a WP:COMPETENCE discussion about User:Weelandlka. This discussion is prompted not by a single incident, but rather a consistent pattern of making edits with poor English, and suppressing contributions that conflict with his/her political views. I have not personally had an extended discussion with Weelandlka about this behavior, but many other editors have over the course of several months. I'm unclear on what the bar is for determining WP:COMPETENCE, but I would appreciate it if you could review Weelandlka's behavior and determine if any action would be appropriate.

Discussion follows:

Frequently inserts incomprehensible text into articles

Weelandlka is a prolific contributor to Wikipedia. Unfortunately, his additions are frequently in broken English which is hard to read, and sometimes completely unintelligible.

Here are a few samples from this week alone:

A debate erupted over conservative leader Andrew Scheer's handling of LGBT rights after the 2019 election, former interim Conservative leader Rona Ambrose is supported chorus of Conservatives members that wanted the party needs to take a clearer stand on LGBTQ. Source

Benoit Charette, the Quebec environmental minister describes people no longer have children as "too alarmists". Source

Jessie Brown from Canadaland noted that it could have given the Conservative party to cut CBC budget. Source

Weelandlka has contributed much worse before; these are just the examples I could find from his/her last few edits.

Weelandlka has been called out on this multiple times, by multiple editors: Link 1, Link 2. The comment in the second link is pretty representative:

I got several "thank yous" and even a written "thank you" on my talk page for reverting your additions. Other editors cannot understand what you are writing and, by their comments, are struggling to either fix or remove your additions.

Note also Weelandlka's comment that English is his/her native language, but (s)he just can't be bothered to make more coherent edits. Weelandlka has not substantively improved the quality of his/her edits since, which forces other editors to clean up afterwards (or just allow the quality of the affected articles to degrade).

Exhibits WP:OWNER behavior, violates WP:NPOV, and engages in edit wars

Weelandlka assumed ownership of the People's Party of Canada article, and took it upon him/herself to unilaterally remove any statements about the party that (s)he disagreed with, including ones supported by references from reputable news outlets including Reuters and the New York Times: Example 1, Example 2, Example 3.

Weelandlka has been warned multiple times for edit warring, both formally and informally: 3RR report 1, 3RR report 2, informal warning.

Other issues

Weelandlka has been repeatedly warned for inserting copyrighted material: Link 1, Link 2.

Weelandlka has also been warned for incorrectly marking edits as minor: Link.

Edit: Stephen Hui (talk) 20:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

There is something amusing about an editor citing competence when they forget to sign their post. 2001:4898:80E8:B:4292:A23B:3173:1596 (talk) 20:59, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Touché. :-) Stephen Hui (talk) 21:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC) (<-- original poster)

The original poster forgetting to sign is an unfortunate mistake of the type that nearly everybody (apart from me of course) makes, but, if Weelandlka is really a native speaker of English, edits betray a lack of competence in writing in any language. Even the first sentence on User:Weelandlka is not written in correct English. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Holy moly. Looking at their contribs and their talk page certainly does not instill a lot of confidence. WMSR (talk) 21:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Especially not the way they have often summarised additions of several hundred bytes as WP:MINOR. Narky Blert (talk) 23:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Page stalker here. This user's contributions merit some extra eyes. I picked a random block add [[80]] and despite some subsequent copy editing, the text is still awkward. See current incarnation David Frum#Immigration TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 23:41, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I get the criticsm that editors are making towards me. I always try to learn from them. For a while I will follow Wikipedia:Be bold and fix my mistakes. Just identify them for me. Weelandlka (talk) 03:28:57, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Weelandlka: Every text addition I've seen here has something wrong. I know you're trying to help, but with your poor command of English, you are forcing others to spend time monitoring and correcting you. Perhaps you should instead suggest the edits on the talk pages, and let others review and politely correct (if necessary) before adding. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 06:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Throwing JUSTDONTLIKEIT accusation without sufficient evidence

Wikaviani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor has accused me of "WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT behavior" when I raised the concern that saying in Turkey#History, the offensive has been described as "bordering on genocide" which is based on a comment by single U.S random politician [81] is UNDUE. This is an unacceptable accusation and I have discussed this with him and asked him again and he said he still stands with this accusation. If the unfounded accusations continued then I predict a block. Just like calling an edit vandalism without sufficient evidence is a personal attack calling them JUSTDONTLIKEIT without sufficient evidence is a personal attack, they both assume bad faith.--SharabSalam (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Comment This user has already harrassed me and other users in the past and now they come here with this baseless report. I was not able to find any mention of personal attack here. Sounds like a WP:BOOMERANG case in my humble opinion. Merry Christmas to everyone.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:08, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• I also want to add that this user keeps accusing other editors with JUSTDONTLIKEIT and in all cases there are no sufficient evidence(see also here). I really think this user should stop and learn how to assmue good faith because it is uncivil to accuse editors with these unfounded accusations. This should be the threshold to this behaviour.--SharabSalam (talk) 00:14, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

This is a content dispute. You have other editors joining in to make compromises. Go back to the talk page and work it out. 2001:4898:80E8:8:EA25:1123:3AE0:C63B (talk) 01:37, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

This is not a content dispute anymore. This is an issue of the long term behavior of an editor that should be noted. This isnt the first time this editor accuses me of JUSTDONTLIKEIT, and this is not the first time he accuses an editor with this unfounded accusation. He also said that he still stands with his accusation.--SharabSalam (talk) 02:42, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• Justdontlikeit is just an essay. It is not a personal attack (although continued unsubstantiated use of it is disruptive). It is also not a good argument to use by itself when debating content, particularly in this case where valid objections have been made. Editors make bad arguments all the time so that in itself is not sanctionable. I don't know whether Wikiaviani uses it too much, some of the links above lead to other editors using it (e.g Talk:Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar and Talk:Operation House of Cards). In my opinion there is nothing to be accomplished here. AIRcorn (talk) 05:48, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

  Aircorn, I know it is an essay. But it assumes bad faith and ruins the discussion he has used it against me at least twice and in both cases, I had valid arguments while he keeps repeating it in every next comment. I would love if an admin considered a warning. Obviously I am not asking for sanctions. I just need this disruptive behavior to stop so we can have real arguments not "I don't bluh bluh, I only see WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT" or "This is a typical WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Also, he mostly uses it in edit summaries. But look for example in Talk:Qanat, he used it twice and in two comments against two editors (Alexandermcnabb and Nabataeus, no valid reason to cite JUSTDONTLIKEIT. And he still stands with his accusation that I only just dont like it. Like everyone who he disagrees with is JUSTDONTLIKEIT!.--SharabSalam (talk) 07:02, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

  Using WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT appears to be a serious problem that is happening frequently. An editor's objective arguments are being rejected by disruptive citing to this essay which assumes bad faith. There is also an editor below this thread who is also complaining about an editor who is like Wikiaviani, citing JUSTDONTLIKEIT every time an editor speaks with objective arguments. This issue was discussed multiple times in the talk page of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. This should be dealt with once and for all, so Wikiaviani or any other editor don't just go and cite an essay that assumes bad faith.--SharabSalam (talk) 09:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest you to take a look at your own behavior. You have been blocked 4 times in less than 18 months (3 times for edit-warring and one time for lack of civility if i'm not mistaken). Saying that i "keep repeating JUSTDONTLIKEIT in every next comment" is wrong, i have been editing here for more than 2 years and have more than 8000 edits, are you able to find thousands edits of mine with that sentence ?

As to the Qanat discussion i have been awarded a barnstar for teamworking by a veteran editor (Kansas Bear) ... I can make mistakes, just like everybody else, and this report of yours is useless, as other editors said above. I'm done here. best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Note that this editor still accuses me that "I just don't like it" even after an editor interfered and said that the U.S. politician comment is UNDUE. He has not apologized or realized his mistake ​--SharabSalam (talk) 11:37, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

User is consistently removing CSD tags on articles created by the user

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S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello admins. User:S. M. Nazmus Shakib has consistently deleted CSD tags placed on articles that were created by the user and this has occurred on multiple occasions. Dr42 (talk) 01:09, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi, if I see correctly:

• 2019-12-15, there was an edit-war about this at Khan Joynul.
• 2019-12-16, there was a discussion about this at User_talk:S._M._Nazmus_Shakib#Autopatrolled_granted. Courtesy ping Muboshgu.
• After the ANI report, Dr42 has reopened the discussion about the topic.

Dr42, has the issue continued after the discussion mentioned above? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the above incidents, but my primary concern, which is somewhat impertinent now because CSD was declined, was, as can be seen in the user's contributions, he frequently creates an article, it gets marked as CSD, and then undoes the action for CSD and invariably adds the edit summary of "if needs go for AfD (sic)". This has happened multiple times and felt it needed to be addressed. If not, then my apologies. Thank you for your help. Dr42 (talk) 02:40, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

It may well need to be addressed, Dr42; thank you for creating the report. I was just trying to get an overview, and to see if the user has continued after the warning. I'll leave the rest to those more frequently dealing with such reports. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I have said it before on my talkpage. I have tired off seeing my stub articles deleted by user:RHaworth but they passed WP:N (see Narayan Rao Tarale, Jogesh Chandra Barman and Maya Rani Paul some of his deletion). So, I removed those. But, after addressing on my talk page I didn't remove any CSD. I am saying I am sorry for these incidents. I will not do again. After all, to err is human. Thanks to all.--S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 02:55, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

A good way to avoid having stubs summarily deleted is not to create stubs. When you decide that an article is worth creating, work on it in userspace or draftspace so that it's well beyond a stub, and only then turn it into, or have it turned into, an article. (My own most recent article creation.) If on the other hand a subject doesn't seem worth more of your effort than what's needed to create a mere stub, this may indicate that the job is better left for some other editor, or not done at all. -- Hoary (talk) 03:15, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Clearly, I erred in giving this person autopatrolled rights. I'm revoking it now. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:37, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance Muboshgu. Dr42 (talk) 04:21, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

My take on this is to some degree S. M. Nazmus Shakib was caught by some over-zealous CSD'ing by Kitaab Ka Kida (now being guided by PamD) resulting in a entanglement where neither did particularly well. I warned S. M. Nazmus Shakib about removal of CSD tags and believe that was taken on board; I have some concerns he still wishes to winge about RHaworth behind his back and possibly to use autopatroller to avoid NPP scrutiny. I am minded Muboshgu maybe should be WP:TROUTed for only removing autopatroller rights when this hit ANI. Dr42, a relatively new user, seems per contributions to have take over a mini WP:IDONTLIKE of S. M. Nazmus Shakib's work and seems to have wished to goto ANI after being somewhat restrained by Espresso Addict. Both Kitaab Ka Kida and Dr42 have seen fit to clear their talk page. Stuff is ongoing at AfD's Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khan Joynul and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adhora Khan and in a new section below.04:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Possible correction. As Dr42's contributions show edits in 2006 the above new user claim may be incorrect. Dr42's knowledge of policies certainly seem beyond that of an average 1 month user but there are valid reasons why this may be. I note the Dr42/M. Nazmus Shakib spat likely originated at the CSDing and detagging of Shyamal Kanti Biswas and frustrations that this might likely survive any attempt to send to AfD. Its also possible the Kitaab Ka Kida/M. Nazmus Shakib spat may have driven some actions on the Shyamal Kanti Biswas article. Thankyou.Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:54, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Djm-leighpark its not mini. Even, he/she reverted my message from his/her talk page and I think he is using tags disruptively on articles created by me.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 04:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

To assist peoples I gender identify as male though my locality at times I would not be surprised to be referred to as "you old woman". I am also regarded as not particularly tall though in excessive of 5 feet (150 cm). Please provide diffs of my alleged disruption in this matter if you wish to pursue it. Thankyou.Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:54, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Disruptive edits of User:Dr42

User:Dr42 is using tags without valid reasons. Please, see Adhora Khan (claimed paid article), Rina Khan (claimed read like a news article). Seems, the user has WP:IDONTLIKE on me.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 04:23, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

As you can see in the thread immediately above this one, I have raised several valid concerns that you removed CSD tags from articles that you created which is not in line with WP rules and regulations. After reviewing other edits, I and several other editors have noted concerns about the articles you've created, which are mainly stubs pertaining to Bangladeshi actors. I've no problem at all with the creation of well-sourced articles. However, when an article lacks notability and does not conform to WP:N, WP:GNG, WP:SIGCOV, and other rules, guidelines, and other miscellany, I will raise those concerns when and where I may. As one can gather from your talk page, I am not the only person with these concerns. My editing is not an incident necessitating the attention of admins. Your removal of CSD tags and other tags, however, is an admin issue, which is why your autopatrol rights were revoked (see above thread). Again, this is nothing personal -- it is a matter of policy. Dr42 (talk) 04:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Dr42 Please don't claim that you are following policy when you are obviously not. Thanks.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 05:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Uncivil conduct towards editors:

Re: User:S. M. Nazmus Shakib - The user is consistently claiming that I am making personal attacks when I am simply making policy-based decisions to tag and evidence-backed decisions to edit articles. He keeps claiming that I am making personal attacks (WP:IDONTLIKE) on multiple pages and in multiple articles and discussions when I have exhibited no malice or inappropriate behaviour towards him. I am uncertain as to how he reached these conclusions, but as other editors have remarked, he must stop removing CSD tags on articles that he has created himself, and he must be civil to other users, something that is not happening at this moment, and thus I am requesting assistance from admins. Thank you. Dr42 (talk) 04:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Please stop removing my message from your talk page (you have reverted thrice, did you do according to policies or according to WP:IDONTLIKE) and stop your WP:IDONTLIKE activities. I have said twice I would not do anymore (on 16 on my talkpage and today). Why you are mentioning again? And you are putting distuptive tags without valid reasons.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 04:57, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Your disruptive message was removed from my talk page because you've placed the same message all over wikipedia claiming that "I don't like you". My policy-based tags and votes on articles that have been nominated for deletion should be respected. I have treated you with respect and would ask the same of you. Your numerous stub articles that do not meet WP:GNG and WP:N are the issue here as well as the fact that you blatantly violated WP policy by removing CSD tags on multiple articles that you created -- not you personally. I would encourage you to edit and enhance your existing articles so they aren't prone to deletion discussions. However, I would kindly ask that you stop attacking me based on my policy-based edits and relevant contributions that are in line with WP's rules and regulations. The tags I have placed are completely relevant to the articles and I've placed them with discretion and forethought about why they meet the criteria for the tags. Thank you. Dr42 (talk) 05:03, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I have created 400+ articles. You claimed among them numerous articles don't meet WP:N. Name the articles' name here. There are administrators, they will judge my message was distruptive or not. I will not revert again from your talk page as I respect WP:3RR rules (but you have done thrice. Thanks.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 05:10, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@S. M. Nazmus Shakib: Users are allowed to remove almost anything from their own talk pages. See WP:OWNTALK. There are limited exceptions but your warning certainly does not qualify. So, Dr42 is allowed to remove it. There is no question of a 3RR issue for Dr42. You, on the other hand, are disruptively restoring a user talk page post that has been removed. Stop doing that. Meters (talk) 05:17, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Meters: I have stopped as I respect WP:3RR after reverting twice (I don't know WP:OWNTALK, free to say). See his activities, its clear about his intention.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 05:24, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance, Meters. As I've assured the relevant user moments ago as he continues this onslaught whereby he invokes "WP:IDONTLIKE" pertaining to every post about me, I've replied thusly: "If you're going to continue to use the WP:IDONTLIKE excuse, at least understand what it means. As it says in the essay, "The point of an encyclopedia is to provide information, not to describe what you "like" or "don't like"." I have, with every edit and tag I've contributed, done so with justification, corroboration, substantiation, and in line with policy and regulations. You, on the other hand, are seemingly stating that I've resorted to saying "I don't like it" or one of its variants. I've provided well-constructed logic and reason to my contributions pertaining to your articles just as I have across all of the other edits I've made on WP. This has nothing to do with you personally. This has to do with your articles -- especially this one, which merely consists of four sentences." I would at this point ask that some administrative act be initiated as I've treated this user with nothing but respect and he is continuously being uncivil towards me. Dr42 (talk) 05:27, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Dr42: continues this onslaught whereby he invokes "WP:IDONTLIKE" pertaining to every post about me

What a coincidence! I also have a problem with an editor who keeps saying "JUSTDONTLIKEIT" see above section LOL!.--SharabSalam (talk) 08:52, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@SharabSalam what fun! We both felt the pain today. However I am optimistic that these issues will dissipate sooner rather than later. Good luck to you my friend. Dr42 (talk) 08:57, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

(ec)It's not a question of 3RR. When someone has removed a thread from their own talk page, do not restore it. Not even once. If it was a warning, removing is taken as sign that they have seen it. It it's a post then they are obviously done with the topic. Meters (talk) 05:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Dr42 please put the names of numerous articles that didn't pass WP:N. Did you use it for attacking me?S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 05:44, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

For the last time, this has nothing to do with you. The articles I've seen where I am questioning the notability of the subjects involved are Adhora Khan, Pramod Khanna, Khan Joynul, and perhaps a few others. Each of these articles is a stub, and they lack significant content. Your interpretation that I am "attacking" you because I am raising the concern that these individuals may not meet WP:GNG is flagrant and without merit. I am merely participating in the dialogue pertaining to the notability of a subject which is my right and privilege as an editor on WP. This has nothing to do with you. Even if I saw an article created by Jimmy Wales and questioned its notability, I would raise that concern if it was a valid, well-founded concern that I felt needed to be raised. This is not personal. This is professional. Stop interpreting my completely reasonable and permitted use of WP as an attack against your participation or existence. This is my final word on the subject. I kindly request that an admin intervene and review this user's conduct. Dr42 (talk) 05:53, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

You have said before numerous and now perhaps few others. Khan Joynul, Adhora Khan are on AfD. It doesn't mean these are not notbale (see AfD discussion. But you put CSD tags on that articles despite of having AfD discussions on two.). And Pramod Khanna produced a film see (Pramod Khanna enters Dabangg 3 to play brother Vinod's role) and later acted in film where he appeared in a significant role see that released today see (Vinod Khanna's brother Pramod Khanna to play Prajapati Pandey in 'Dabangg 3'). Thanks.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 06:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Checkuser request

{{Checkuser needed}} for User:S. M. Nazmus Shakib for the following reasons: - vandalism, potential sock puppetry, disruption to Wikipedia, and bad-faith potentially paid editing that all seems to revolve around the Bangladeshi film industry. Dr42 (talk) 06:01, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

User:S. M. Nazmus Shakib has also engaged in policy violations including removing CSD tags from articles that he himself has created. Dr42 (talk) 06:05, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Further info: S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) -- Dr42 (talk) 06:06, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Also, I can confirm that at least one article that was deleted was re-created by the user without going through the appropriate process. Dr42 (talk) 06:14, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Dr42 claimed vandalism (When I vandalise Wikipedia?), sock puppetry (speechless), distrupion of Wikipedia (when?), paid editting (speechless again). I have said about CSD tags removal twice (here and on my talk page). For your kind information I usually created politicians, dead people articles and India releated articles. Film people are few among my article creation (among them mostly I created India film people). And in his allegation mentioned here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khan Joynul the deleting administrator (RHaworth) himself voted for keep who deleted earlier (I have mentioned [[there why I recreated). And there are few CSD removals (also said reasons why I have done on my talk page). I apologised twice (see above and my talk page) and said I will not do again. But, he is attacking me again and again and said my message was spam on his talk page. Today he our 4 CSD tags on my articles (3 of them such as Shyamal Kanti Biswas, Adhora Khan, Khan Joynul declined and another Nimish Pilankar who was the sound editor of many films. And sound editors are creative professionals. There are enough references there). Put a AfD tag on Pramod Khanna (I meantioned here why he passed WP:NENT). And voted for delete on afds my article despite of showing him valid reasons. I think his recent contribution indentified his WP:IDONTLIKE activities on me. And he claimed earlier I created numerous articles that didn't pass WP:N (but didn't able to name some). Thanks.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 06:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Dr42: A request for checkuser requires evidence. You appear to be a party to this dispute, and we need to see that there is evidence that would convince an unbiased observer that there is something to investigate. Your link to an article that they have re-created was an article that they had created previously, and is not evidence of socking. You can re-instate the checkuser needed template if you have evidence in the form of diffs linking this user to another account. ST47 (talk) 07:26, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@ST47: Under CheckUser: Grounds for Checking, it states that vandalism, disruption, and bad faith editing are valid reasons. The relevant user has engaged and admitted to removing CSD tags when he knew he created the articles and should not have done so. In addition, he reverted my talk page back to edits he made for a total of four times. He is consistently invoking WP:IDONTLIKE when I am merely voting on the merits of the deletion proposals. The user is also spamming wikipedia with article stubs of non-notable individuals that have little-to-no sources from reputable news entities. The sock argument is the least strong, but I think the vandalism, disruption, and bad faith editing have ample evidence based on the links I've provided in this post and in the above posts. I bear no ill will toward the user, I am simply concerned about the vandalism, disruption, and bad faith editing that has continued for some time now. See user talk page, specifically here, here, here, here, and here. Dr42 (talk) 07:44, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

{{Checkuser needed}} for User:S. M. Nazmus Shakib for the following reasons: vandalism, disruption to Wikipedia, and bad-faith potentially paid editing that all seems to revolve around the Bangladeshi politics and the Bangladeshi film industry. See above for evidence. Dr42 (talk) 07:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Ok, these pages were deleted and these were happened when I was reletively new user and I don't know then notability guidelines and policies of Wikipedia. After that see User talk:Mkativerata about solve of our edit warring on Mahathir Mohammad. It was done then as I have used WP:3RR by mistake as I don't know then. Later, the edit war was solved. He often claimed paid editting without no reason. @Dr42: claimed I am spamming Wikipedia. Did the user know notability guidelines? Did the user know members of state legislatures are nnotable? Or it was uses by him for hharassing me. Thanks.S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 07:55, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Dr42: None of this is evidence that the user is violating any element of WP:SOCK. ST47 (talk) 08:08, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@ST47: I agreed, but as I mentioned, there are other reasons under CheckUser: Grounds for Checking, and those reasons are vandalism, disruption, and bad faith editing. If those aren't valid reasons then perhaps they should be removed because the way that it reads currently, it doesn't state that it has to be an exclusively sock puppet-based argument. Either way, the only thing that matters here is stopping the rule breaking. If you have any additional ideas or procedures by which I can solve the problems that this user has presented, they are most welcome. Otherwise, I suppose we can just move on with the hope that the user will stop any vandalism, disruption, and bad faith editing. Thanks for your assistance. Dr42 (talk) 08:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I have said on talk page and even there that I won't remove CSD tag again. Did you notice Dr42?S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 09:04, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Dr42, I’d suggest you stop advocating for a CheckUser unless you can identify clear sock-like behaviour, preferably with demonstrative diffs. I agree that there are some problematic issues relating to policy, and possibly even some evidence of paid editing (given the dearth of rather obscure subjects). But these are dealt with in other ways, such as (for example): mentoring/topic bans, and disclosures, respectively. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 09:53, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeatedly removing AfD template from article

Progress4weegies (talk · contribs) has now three times removed the AfD template from Langshot, despite being warned twice not to do so again. PamD 08:57, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I strongly believe they have also appended the name to local business addresses on Google Maps to present as evidence of notability after the AfD process began, please see the discussion for details, apologies if not relevant to highlight here. Crowsus (talk) 10:22, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

They are still at it - removing the AfD template here again, and has now resorted to blanking the AfD page. I've issued another warning, if they persist in disruptive editing, maybe a short block is in order? Isaidnoway (talk) 12:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I have blocked them for 1 week, which should put it past the close of the AFD in question. If they agree to stop their disruption, they can be unblocked early by myself or any other admin in case I am not available. --Jayron32 12:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

RTG and RDMA

• RTG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

RTG asked a run-of-the-mill, albeit vague, question at RDMA about a week ago. As this is a vague and ill-posed question, several mathematicians, including myself along with @Joel B. Lewis, Double sharp, CiaPan, and Wikimedes: gave several answers for different formulations of the question. But it soon became clear that RTG would never be satisfied by any answer they could get at RDMA, and after Double sharp agreed with me that all reasonable answers were already given, and RTG still displayed a misunderstanding of everyone's answers, I closed the discussion, which RTG promptly proceeded to edit war over; after JBL endorsed my closure by restoring it, RTG proceeded to open Wikipedia talk:Reference desk#Battleground, where two uninvolved editors (@Deacon Vorbis and Jayron32:) agreed that continuing the discussion would not be productive, thus rendering the close proper. Throughout that discussion, RTG was consistently incivil, with e.g. SHOUT'ing and casting aspersions of "tag teaming" as well as (also without evidence) "harassment" and "wikilawyering", and (see WT:Reference desk#Battleground) battleground behavior – all the while ignoring the fact that a rather strong consensus has formed that the RDMA discussion had outlived its usefulness. On top of this, they made this POINTy addition to the tag team essay, which I almost want to say was made in bad faith; archive templates are often used on this page to resolve sections, after all.

This behavior is toxic. Archiving RDMA sections that have outlived their usefulness is a common practice, so I didn't think it would be so controversial here (and probably wouldn't have done it had I known what would follow). My goals are:

• RTG respects the consensus, drops the WP:STICK, and makes no further edits related (construed broadly) to that particular RDMA thread;
• RTG commits to conducting himself in a more civil and collegial matter;
• and failing either of those, RTG is blocked.

That I will be spending a good ten minutes on ANI notices here, and the amount of diffs presented here, should give a good indication that RTG has gone far beyond the threshold of WP:IDHT.--Jasper Deng (talk) 14:03, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I endorse everything Jasper Deng has written. I would be happy to comment further if requested but do not have ANI on my watchlist, so please ping. --JBL (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• I don't know why this is here. RTG has not edited RDMA to undo the close since they were told to stop doing so. They are discussing the matter and presenting their side of the case at WT:RD as is proper. While I disagree with their side of the argument, I find that they have done nothing worthy of a sanction, and certainly not worth starting an ANI thread. There has been no recent disruption to deal with; they're probably a bit overearnest, and can (and has) been reminded to tone things down a bit, but I find nothing I would block or ban them for. --Jayron32 14:22, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
  • For me, the POINTy additions to the tag-teaming page and the continued heckling at the ref desk talk pages was what brought me here. If RTG stops all such editing, i.e. makes nothing new beyond the diffs above, then yes this would need no sanction (hence the "failing").--Jasper Deng (talk) 14:26, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
    • I hadn't noticed that. I agree that that is a problem, and RTG would be well advised to never do anything like that again. --Jayron32 15:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) The discussion at WT:RD I feel is proper. What I feel is improper is this sort of WP:POINTY behaviour, which indeed looks pretty bad (claiming "However, the template is used across the site as a tool to manipulate and prevent active discussions" just on the basis of one discussion you've just been involved in never looks good). But since there is discussion ongoing at WT:RD, I have just added to that discussion another attempt to civilly explain why it is that this problem keeps cropping up when we try to answer RTG's question. So we can wait and see how it turns out from there, as I rather agree with Jayron32 that we have a problem stemming from over-earnestness, that does not warrant a block at this stage, only some advice to be paid attention to. Double sharp (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• I don't see why this is here except to prevent me from discussing what transpired.

• Explain why it is vague.

• I got assurance from a genuine ref desk contributor the answer was, it just means 2D. The question I asked was, "Please tell me, is the Euclidean plane the concept of two dimensional space only, or is it the concept of 2D space + something else?"

• Jasper Deng "closed" a discussion? Yes after taking the piss out of me for days having me ask the same question many times over and responding every time with technical terms and reference to other disciplines of maths and on and on and on... A real bullshit teasing causing trouble on the ref desks saying stuff like, oh maybe he's trying to read Science Direct (science what?), "If you actually have a question you want answered..." , "I am telling you (again) that you have not articulated a question..." ,

• If the Euclidean plane is a 2D plane only with no need for fancy description, why didn't any of the so-called helpers point out this response as unhelpful... "The properties of Euclidean plane appeared very interesting to me some time ago, so now I tried to follow this thread - alas, could not find a sense of humor in it. And not only a sense of humor, but actually little sense at all. What a pity, it could have been an interesting talk..."

• And on and on and on...

• In the end I wrote, "Is it not the case, that Euclid simply formalised concepts like up is up, down is down, and describing anything unusual or complex relative to that, is the opposite of describing Euclidean geometry..?"

• It has been said before, it is not possible to drop a stick someone else is beating you up with. Being unable to discuss what has happened on the ref desks will not be possible from me. I have only discussed it in one place outside the relevant section, and that was the talk page of the ref desks to suggest that the archive template should never be used in an active discussion as to do so is purely disruptive. Is that opinion going to be on trial here? Well I won't be able not to state that either. As for any kind of harassment or disruption or tag team teasing people I consider ignorant for fun... I for one won't be doing any of that. ~ R.T.G 15:37, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

What you have at the end is still very hand-wavy, but has the general idea right that Euclidean geometry is kind of the way you expect things to be. We already explained in various ways in our answers what concepts are the key ones, particularly those of length and angle (so not quite "up is up and down is down", as there is no "up" or "down" on the plane, only "left", "right", "forwards", and "backwards"). I wrote before you wrote your last comment there that I agreed with Jasper Deng that you couldn't get a better answer at that point; if I'd been quicker, I might have given the response I just did. That's more or less the best sort-of-correct explanation that we can give: I don't think we could give any further answers that didn't just repeat the ones we gave (which this already mostly does), so I think the discussion was stopped at about the right point. Double sharp (talk) 16:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Sharp... I am being accused of being too vague here, but look at what you just wrote. Can you not just bite the bullet, like the rest of us have to? Hand wavy? I couldn't get a better answer? Do you want me to embarrass the contributor who did answer the enquiry? I think the quote was something like... "Yes, it's a 2D plane" ... Is that too... vague for you? ... Seriously, I've got to drop the stick around here, or something. ~ R.T.G 16:46, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE editor

A new editor James The Bond 007 (formerly Gumshoe97) has been persistently creating messes in their very short Wiki career.

• Tagging an FA for A1, A3, A11, G11 - their response as to why was that it was a test and to insult me
• tagging this a1, a11, g11
• tagging this a1, g11
• edit warring here
• move warring during a dispute
• telling editors to "keep their nose out of this dispute"
• reopening an SPI (incorrectly) based on the dispute where they edit warred and were told not to do so.
• a variety of incivility and personal attacks here and on the creators talk
• reverting a uw-paid notice by Yunshui with no explanation and only gave one once they were warned with the reasoning of "accidental"
• following this request up by going around to a bunch of people's talk pages and editing them.
• ridiculous requests for page protection
• hat collecting - (not technically a hat but just to give some more background on the nothere nature of this editor)

I could continue but in the short month that this user has been here they've made several dozen errors and seem to generally lack the competence and maturity to edit. It is a waste of other editors time to clean up after someone who thus far hasn't contributed positively to this project. I don't know if the solution here is an indef or a very lengthy block but I believe one of the two needs to happen. Praxidicae (talk) 14:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I should have added "and I'd propose an indef" to the last sentence. Praxidicae (talk) 14:41, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I have noticed this too(thanks Praxidicae for bringing this up), and have been tempted to issue a NOTHERE block. 331dot (talk) 14:41, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think they are contributing anything useful and are in fact just wasting other editors' time.-- P-K3 (talk) 14:42, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think a block is appropriate, i just think Praxidicae should leave me alone, i am a new user, and she keeps bugging me, and I told her to stop, and she doesn't listen, all I ask her is to stop, and please don't block me, I beg you, and she threatened to get me blocked, and all my edits are assumed in good faith, so please don't block me. --Sir Bond 007 (James The Bond 007) (talk) 14:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

And now you've removed not one, but two comments in this thread, in support of a block and disrupted my talk page Praxidicae (talk) 14:46, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Whilst I do not think that James The Bond 007 is the same user that I originally blocked them as a sock of, I nonetheless have started to seriously regret lifting the block I placed on their account. I would support a WP:CIR block in these circumstances. Yunshui ^雲_水 14:48, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• First off, if they were granted any permissions, such as rollback, then remove them. Otherwise a block is inappropriate (they're not punitive) as they've already had quite a clear message delivered already. However any repeat should be a long block. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

a block is completely appropriate given how many warnings they've had and their repeated "accidents." Please see the lengthy history of this user and feel free to ask an admin about some of their deleted edits. Praxidicae (talk) 14:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

We don't warn-and-block for the same edits. Well, clearly we do, but we shouldn't. Blocks aren't intended as punishment. If they're really so incorrigible, WP:ROPE would have blocked them for their next event. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:54, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• (ec) I decided to block after the disruption pointed out by Praxidicae. 331dot (talk) 14:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

An edit which you've just tagged as "ec", and where Bond's could equally as well have been an edit conflict. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:52, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

It's not just that edit conflict, it's a pattern of incompetent and disruptive editing. Whether it's CIR or NOTHERE, it's a good block.-- P-K3 (talk) 14:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

They didn't just EC. Look at the actual diff, they literally edited a comment as their own and removed another. That's not an EC. Praxidicae (talk) 14:58, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

It's a two minute time window. That's certainly possible as an ec. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:01, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I can't even understand what would make someone think that's not an EC. It looks like an obvious EC to me. – Levivich 15:20, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• It seems they were adopted by DESiegel about a week ago Curdle (talk) 14:54, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
• The editor had some personal information oversighted from their user page, and the oversighter pointed the editor to WP:GFYE. It may be a fundamental WP:CIR issue due to the editor being too young to edit productively at this time, but if so, that should be handled with a bit more gentleness than has been displayed so far. I think the adopter should have been notified and may want to handle this (thanks, DES, for signing up for the role!). – Levivich 15:19, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• I want to state now that I have seen the ping, and intend to review the above comments and diffs more thoroughly, and respond here as soon as possible, surely withing 24 hours.. It seems that I should have been more closely monitoring this user's edits than I was. I was actually planning to deliver a cautionary message today based on a communi=cation that I received earlier in the week. Please do not close this thread just yet. I would like a chance to reveiw and address this. I am not yet sure if i can in good conscience argue for an unblock, but I hope to be able to make that case. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 15:25, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
• I'm inclined to decline the unblock request, and after seeing this user earlier, I'm not surprised at the block. Blocks are not punitive, and this one isn't. The problem is the ongoing disruption, and I see no hope that the disruption will not resume once they are unblocked. They simply may not be ready to function here at a constructive level. Despite the hype, not everyone is. I eagerly await User:DESiegel's opinion. Perhaps User:Andy Dingley could assist DES in mentoring. -- Deepfriedokra 17:16, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

  Just noting that I did decline the unblock request. I do agree with Levivich that given the apparent age that this suggests a level of care that might not apply in other situations. At some point, even if not now or the next few years, this editor really might be a productive editor and I wouldn't want to close that door definitively. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:44, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• Having communicated with this user before, I think the only real issue is their age, which leads to incompetence. It might be best if they come back in a couple of years once they have gained a little bit more maturity and then try to edit Wikipedia productively. Happy Festivities! // J947 ^(c) 17:50, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Problematic editor

This user continues to add unsourced info to music related articles despite a multitude of final warnings. Given they like to remove any negative messages from their talk page such as warnings (which they are of course allowed to do) it does make it seem as if it is always a first time offence. As such I added the "old warnings" tag to the top of their talk page so that other editors are aware of the prior warnings but one only needs to hover over the diffs on their talk page history to see the removed warnings for failing to reliably source. I personally warned them here, made another personal plea here but after Magnolia677's message today, their continued unsourced edits and their complete lack of communication with other editors regarding these issues have brought this here. Examples of recent unsourced edits can be found here, here, and here but one only needs to hover over their contribution diffs to get the bigger picture. Please could an admin remind this silent editor about the importance of collaboration and reliably sourcing their edits, thanks. Robvanvee 15:59, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

On Dec. 20th I asked BetterThanNothing this very detailed question about the source of an edit, but received no reply. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:37, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Blocking now, with any unblock contingent on communicating with others and demonstrating understanding of basic sourcing policy. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Blade. Robvanvee 18:22, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Paul sachudhanandam - UPE

• Paul sachudhanandam (talk · contribs)
  Report timed out at AIV.
  Paul has churned out a succession of promotional & copyvio articles about non-notable subjects, SRM transports, Mr. Sridhar Vembu, Integra Software Services Pvt. Ltd (AFD), Toplace, a recreation of his 2015 autobiography Paul sachudhanandam , and Draft:Anandmurti Gurumaa (twice, for an article which has been repeatedly deleted, discussed, and then salted).
  He has been cautioned about his conflict of interest and asked to make proper declarations Special:Diff/915985175, Special:Diff/916139071, Special:Diff/917975863, cautions which he has deleted rather than respond to, Special:Diff/916156302.
  He has used a sockpuppet, Charlie degreen (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki), to remove tags on his behalf. Challenged with an {{uw-agf-sock}}, Charlie disappeared.
  His recreation of Draft:Anandmurti Gurumaa, previously deleted as Anandmurti Gurumaa as probable UPE, his upload of File:Anandmurti Gurumaa.jpg "Personally sent to me" within 18 hours of the deletion of c:File:Anandmurti-Gurumaa.jpg, his job as an SEO (revealed in his U5 deleted userpage and his LinkedIn page), all make it clear he's indulging in UPE, possibly as a meatpuppet of Seokochin, or more likely given the range of articles he's created, just as the next hired keyboard picked up by Anandmurti Gurumaa to do the job. It's plain ol' UPE, undisclosed paid editor. Cabayi (talk) 16:33, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

IP talk page abuse

207.172.72.50 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Looks like this CheckUser-blocked IP is abusing their talk page access. -- LuK3 (Talk) 17:37, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Access revoked. Widr (talk) 17:40, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Personal attacks

31.205.18.37 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Unbridled personal attacks by IP on Talk pages and edit summaries even after being told and warned not to continue to do so. Gotitbro (talk) 18:36, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

The user above has wrongly made a claim when he clearly has been indulgding in pov pushing on many articles he has got warnings from several editors who have all complained about his bias he keeps removing sourced information on the article Distillation among others based on spurious accussations of vandalism etc when they are clearly sourced. 31.205.18.37 (talk) 18:41, 20 December 2019 (UTC)