Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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Handling new editors (follow-up to Metsguy234 section)

Unresolved

 – I cannot see any sort of resolution to this discussion yet, and am therefore requesting more opinion. Cheers, Davnel03 16:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC) Personally, I think this is all off-topic for ANI. Just mark as resolved and suggest continuing at Wikipedia talk:Please do not bite the newcomers or User talk:Metsguy234. Carcharoth (talk) 20:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Suggest continuing discussion at Wikipedia talk:Please do not bite the newcomers or User talk:Metsguy234. Davnel03 21:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This section split off by me from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Metsguy234 as it is veering from the topic and that section can usefully be archived now to reduce the size of ANI. Header created by me. Initial post by Hu12 was originally in response to the 18:06, 6 December post from Franamax. Carcharoth (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Sadly Metsguy234's last contribution was speedy deleted as spam.--Hu12 (talk) 18:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sadly because it was spam or because it wasn't? Obviously I think it was a genuine contribution from a baseball fan. I had advised them to merge that content to the article about the company, and I've also pointed this out to the editor who placed the speedy tag at their editor review. They've acknowledged that talking to the author first might have been a better idea before placing the speedy tag. Carcharoth (talk) 22:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

For gawd's sake, so much drama - I have to agree with Carcharoth in this instance. Let's jump back a couple of years to about July 2005. A new IP address rocked up on the article for a large Australian university and made a rather large edit. It was clearly in breach of WP:COI - its IP traced back to the university, and the edit summary even boldly stated it. The edit itself was also in complete violation of WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS and WP:OR - its author hadn't yet got around to discovering these, although was literate with good grammar and had been a web designer in a past life so Wiki markup wasn't so remarkably incomprehensible. Couple of days later, the same IP makes a substantive alteration to a rival university, pretty much destroying the original article and all but copying their own university's page over it except for changing the names, making various fixes etc. I'm fairly certain that if that was seen today it would have gotten banned right off the mark for vandalism or possibly even sockpuppetry of some hitherto-unknown troubled user who had some interest in higher education in Australia. I mean, the grammar was good, this IP editor knew how to wikilink, and he even used an edit summary. That IP was actually me, and 9 months later I registered an account, and a further 12 months later became an admin. Some users have much less even starts - especially the younger ones, who initially do things they would later look back to regret, sometimes even acquire a block history along the way, and then work with others and become productive, helpful contributors who are an asset to the sub-projects they belong to. Let's not get battle hardened and think everyone we deal with who we can't immediately classify must be a sock or a troll - I have a watchlist with 3,500 items on it and am pleased to see how many IP-address changes and new-user changes are beneficial or at least intended to be (usually correcting my infobox errors, actually - it's like *click diff* "d'oh!" on my part some mornings.) Orderinchaos 07:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

So what are you saying here OiC? Rewind back to that time, without all you know now, to when you were a brash young turk. What would have been the best "battle hardened" approach to you then? (It sounds like you were unrestrained by anyone at the time) If Carch had put a strong warning on your talk, would you have accepted that and changed your ways, or would you have fought back, sure of your own invincibility? If you'd got blocked for a day or a week, how would you have reacted? Sit through it and carefully consider, or seethe with injustice and thoughts of revenge? And if it was an indef block, what then? Would you have walked away in disgust or emotional shock, or would you do more research ('cause we all know you were addicted after your second edit or so :), think harder and come back better?

There is something to be said for an indefinite block - it can end at any time, all it takes is for the user to figure out what the problem is and frame the atonement properly, which any number of people can help with, like Carch helped Metsguy (with a typo). It seems to me that a definite block might actually be more likely to be observed to completion by other admins and allowed to expire in due course. And maybe like in real life, if you serve your whole jail sentence, you don't have to deal with counselling, rehab, parole, probation - you just get back out on the street, alone again. If people know it will end at some definite time, might they not be less likely to extend a hand? I do think Carch is right in the broad sense, but put yourself back into the skin that was you - would he have been right then also?

Also, Metsguy first article getting speedily deleted - well now, that is the true Welcome to wikipedia now, isn't it? Franamax (talk) 09:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I think there was another, earlier attempt at an article. But that looked to me like experimentation, and took place many months ago (followed by a Sandbox edit). This was a better attempt at an article, but really, this is very off-topic for ANI. No administrator actions needed. What is needed is for admins (and other editors) to help out when they see a new user in need of help. As far as the degree of handling (stern, kind, helpful), that depends on the user in question. There is a degree of self-selection, in that those unsuitable for Wikipedia may be the ones that give up and walk away, but people should be given several chances early in their Wikipedia editing history, along with appropriate guidance and warnings, giving them time to learn about Wikipedia and how it works. But really, this needs to be discussed at Wikipedia talk:Please do not bite the newcomers. Carcharoth (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I've gone wrong then because I signed up to WikiHow and invited Metsguy to come over, read and give his comments and experience. I thought it was still a relevant incident. So both he and I have learned a(nother) lesson. Sorry. Franamax (talk) 13:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

About the first two contributions to the Berenstain Bears articles- I was at a friend's house and we were bored- so we stupidly chose to vandalize a page. It was a bad decision, and I really regret it now. About the comment from Neil that I had made no good edits- Yes, I know most of my edits were small- but it's not easy to find mistakes in a community of millions upon millions of people- so I corrected whatever typo I could see. Metsguy234 (talk) 16:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Dbuckner

Resolved

 – Davnel03 16:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Dbuckner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've blocked Dbuckner (talk · contribs) indefinitely as he's made a legal threat against FT2 by stating that he's contacted animal welfare officials about his conduct on Wikipedia[1]. I've made it clear to him that the minute he retracts this, I am willing to unblock his account. I hope this is just a momentary lapse of judgement and he'll soon be back to editing. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems like he is willing to retract the threat. — Save_Us_229 13:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said, if he makes it clear that he no longer plans to take this off wiki in any context, then I'll unblock right away. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This seems pretty clear. — Save_Us_229 13:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

And I unblocked just after he stated it. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

He quit. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yup - [2]. Neil ☎ 13:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

He seemed to have made this intention clear before the block. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 13:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Which leads me to wonder why he was so keen to be unblocked. If I was leaving the wikipedia, I wouldn't worry so much about whether I got blocked. He also seemed to claim he was editing from an IP on WP:IP [3]. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

← His blog that was linked says he's taking a break. So he may or may not be back. He probably wants the unblock so that he can come back if he is so inclined. James086^{Talk | Email} 13:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked Dbuckner indefinitely. In an email to me he makes it clear that he has in fact carried out the threat he purported to withdrawn and has posted what interpret as a vicious personal attack with serious legal consequences to a number of what he termed "activist websites". Given that this has gone beyond what can be dealt with on-wiki, I am emailing the Foundation with a summary of events for their review. WjBscribe 15:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I received a similar email last night. I support leaving this situation in WJBscribe's hands unless the Foundation staff takes it over from him. My assessment is that well intended but poorly judged comments yesterday pushed the dispute off-site, and we may well have lost one or more productive editors here. I think the damage is likely to be most limited if only one person manages the situation than if several of us are getting in each others way. GRBerry 16:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:BAN#Outside influence, I agree with WJBscribe's decision. Durova^Charge! 18:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur with GRBerry's comments and have confidence in WJBscribe's efforts to limit the damage. Moral of all this is think before you type, internet comments are immortal. Alice.S 19:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

WJ was right to block. The use of external activist sites and threats of legal action is in my mind an attempt to sway arbcom elections and an act of harassment. 1 != 2 19:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Throw it at the Office and let them handle it from here. Totally endorse block and totally caution against unblock. Daniel 22:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Now you see? This person may get into real life legal issues with the foundation. That's why you gotta be careful what you say on-wiki - you never know who's watching and what actions'll be taken. Block endorsed, as well as ban. Maser ^(Talk!) 08:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Contacting animal rights organization is hardly a legal threat. This escalated from a concerned user using unmeasured words to a total break of trust. I haven't seen all of it, so I can't say who was in the right, but I can say that Ryan's intervention on WJB's page was harmful, not helpful. Please be more careful next time. Zocky | picture popups 07:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Zocky, have you seen the policy link I provided? This action was explicitly and immediately bannable. Durova^Charge! 21:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to agree with that. Note that this started with an on-wiki smear campaign by Dbuckner, to generate moral panic against FT2. Taking it to outside organizations after being told to stop is really not a good thing. >Radiant< 22:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Secret has gone around striking through all Dbuckner's votes in the election. Was this decided somewhere or can anyone undo it? He was an editor in good standing when he voted, and the reasons for the block are unrelated to the votes she has struck through. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

WTF? Removing votes per WP:ILIKEIT, is it? Undo by all means, Slim. Bishonen | talk 00:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC).

This isn't WP:IDONTLIKE it, WP:AGF, I never dealt with that user before, I noticed that he was blocked indef, and I discounted the vote, last year elections were the same thing, in which a couple of users blocked indef votes were crossed out. Anyways he was disrupting the elections and that was the main reason he was blocked, lets see community consensus before we undo each other. Secret ^account 01:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I've undone it. As I said elsewhere, Secret, it would be like you voting in a real-life election, getting arrested for shoplifting on the way home, and election officials grabbing your voting slip out of the ballot box as something unworthy. If he was in good standing when he voted, and his loss of that standing is unrelated to those votes, there can't be any reason to strike the votes out. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

One of the people volunteering to clerk the elections asked me about those votes at the time. My opinion was that they should stay - the most problematic one was that of FT2 but Dbuckner struck that one himself. The others were cast by him when a user in good standing and are unrelated to the issue that resulted in my having to take the action I did (and then refer the matter to Jimbo). My only concern is that votes in this election don't have the finality of those posted through a ballot box - users are free to change their mind until voting closes. Dbuckner being unable to edit is unable to withdraw the support of those candidates in the same manner as anyone else. Though he could email me if he finds this situation problematically - he has shown no reluctance to contact me so far... WjBscribe 01:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As said, I have no opinion on whether he's right about FT2, and I have no reason whatsoever to believe that WJBscribe blocked him unfairly. I was just pointing out that intervening with accusations of harassment and threats of block on another admin's talk page while an excited user is trying to talk to that admin tends to escalate conflicts. That's all. Zocky | picture popups 03:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oh dear. We had the exact same issue last year. "Should a banned user's votes be stricken even if he wasn't banned until AFTER he made those votes?" The answer should be an obvious "no", because bans aren't retroactive, and it shouldn't be possible to influence elections by banning users. >Radiant< 14:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • The conclusion in Radiant's post is the same as that in our general policy for banning. Only edits made after the banning are subject to reversal. People get confused about this because the edits by sockpuppets created after the ban and identified after a while are reversible, but that is because those edits occurred after the user was banned, not because we go back and reverse all edits by a user who is later banned. GRBerry 19:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Users Otolemur crassicaudatus and Ghanadar galpa

Unresolved

 – User seems to of apologised into his talkpage, yet there seems to be some disagreement on WP:DICK underneath. More opinion warranted. Cheers, Davnel03 16:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

User talk: Otolemur crassicaudatus appears to be repeatedly attacking Ghanadar galpa. See here and here. This seems to centre around this AfD, which is proposing the deletion of an article created by Otolemur crassicaudatus about crime against tourists in India. It should be noted that Otolemur crassicaudatus is arguing very heavily for the article to be kept - take a look for yourself. I cannot say whether Ghanadar galpa is innocent, as I haven't had time to look at a number of the diffs cited by Otolemur crassicaudatus, but looking at just one diff (here), there doesn't seem to be any particular provokation. It would be great if an admin could investigate this fully, and take appropriate actions. Cheers, _TheIslander 20:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[4] seems pretty provocative, well into the range of violating WP:DICK. That's Ghandard galpa's very first post on the AfD, so he came to the AfD for the point of posting that message about OC, not to discuss the article.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

OC has created a large number of these articles that serve little purpose but to bash India. WP:DICK is irrelevant.Bakaman 21:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Like many editors, OC has produced articles towards their interests and POV. Unlike many editors, however, OC has made articles on viable subjects and done a passable job at creating and sourcing them. Crime against foreigners in India is a perfectly viable subject and a well-cited article, if still far from being a good article--but again, how many articles created on such topics by one editor are really good articles?

WP:CIVIL and WP:DICK have no exceptions. It's not appropriate to come into an AfD and attack an editor, whether or not you disagree with their POV.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:DICK is not a policy, and OC certainly has no problems acting in a rude, uncouth, and pugnacious manner.Bakaman 01:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Bakasuprman here, Prosfilaes. While you may be right that it has no exceptions, it is also unenforcable. However, WP:NPA may be what you want to cite. -- llywrch (talk) 19:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Prester John on another delete rampage

Resolved

 – Blocked; supported by others. Davnel03 17:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Prester John (talk · contribs) has just been unblocked, and is immediately going through my history list deleting all content that I've added. Just over a week ago, he was at it (previous ANi report here). He received this admin warning, which was ignored. The deletions are happening right this minute. I am rushing to get some diffs together. Will post back again soon. Lester 05:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Note: the warning was given by Goodshoped35110s who is not an administrator. Ariel♥Gold 06:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Goodshoped35110s (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was recently blocked for disruption, and he's claimed to have quit the project. - Jehochman ^Talk 06:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• 05:21, 9 December 2007. Article: John Brumby (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Reverted my additions. Prester had never been to this article before his previous revert stalking attack last week.
• 05:16, 9 December 2007 Article: John Stone (Australian politician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Again, Prester John had never been to this old article until a few minutes after I added content there.
• 05:13, 9 December 2007. Article John Howard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). He deleted content I'd recently added.
• 05:11, 9 December 2007. Article: Ian Sinclair (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Reverted my content. Prester only arrived at this article a few minutes after I'd got there, having never been there before.Lester 06:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

First and only additions after a 72 hour block. I suggest a good long healthy block. Might suggest longer, but Lester doesn't have a history as a saint either. The Evil Spartan (talk) 06:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello 'Evil Sparten'. Yes, I got blocked in August for 3RR, and learned my lesson and have not repeated that. I believe Prsster John wants to hover over me deleting everything I add, hoping that I leave Wikipedia. If he had a content dispute, there are other ways Prester could have engaged the community. There were active discussions about the content in most of the above listed articles, which Prester did notjoin. This is just plain bullying.Lester 06:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Prester John appears to be removing properly sourced information, and he seems to possibly be stalking Lester (talk · contribs). [5][6][7][8] I recommend that somebody look at this closely and decide whether a block is warranted; I have left him a warning.[9] - Jehochman ^Talk 06:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. Prester John is a prolific antagoniser. Repeated appeals from numerous users on many occasions have often seen him escape serious sanction by the skin his teeth (at times, on the back of shallow, quickly discarded promises to participate more responsibly next time). This latest behaviour is atrocious and, given his history, should be dealt with seriously. His toxic continuation of bad behaviour, which adds nothing to the goal of producing an encyclopedia, must be comprehensively curtailed. Escalating blocks had been previously initiated after heavily disruptive editing bouts. Suggested block level: 1 month. --Brendan [ contribs ] 06:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I would have to say that after reviewing his recent contributions it appears he is deleting well sourced content, even when his edit summary indicates a simple wording change would have resolved his issue. It also appears that the majority of these revisions are material Lester has introduced. His one other significant edit was also a reversion, however, the edit was performed by an IP not Lester. It appears Prester John may have ongoing difficult understanding that reverts are not a proper way to build the encyclopedia. Since this disruption comes immediately after coming off a block for identical reasons, I support re-blocking with a longer expiration. I agree that a month seems reasonable. Shell ^babelfish 07:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Being a regular around the Australian noticeboard, I must confess there have been frequent complaints of varying merit flying in both directions between Prester John and Lester. Upon review of the four edits, it would indeed seem that this behaviour is pre-meditated and deliberate, and one could certainly infer some bad faith upon the part of Prester John given his recent MfD's which resulted in his 72-hour block. However, given my previous involvement (recently closing an MfD about Prester John and his userspace), my comments should be taken with a calcuated pinch of salt and I most certainly wouldn't consider using my administrator tools in the situation. I think the most important aspect to consider here is the possible parallels between Prester John's disruptive MfD nominations which resulted in the recent block (clearly endorsed by consensus) and these removals. Daniel 07:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

A month it is? Would someone just perform the block then? I agree whole-heartedly. The Evil Spartan (talk) 07:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree on a month block if an admin is willing to take that bold step and actually do it. This user is far too disruptive; to start stalking editors as soon as he returns from a previous block is just plain ridiculous. — Save_Us_229 08:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I did it. Subject to review. Grandmasterka 09:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that Lester does have a bit of a history of adding information and giving it undue prominance and putting a large amount of editorialising about it, and giving a reference that either does not support the pertinent information added, or doesn't have it at all. Rather than just blocking Prester John, Lester's edits should be more carefully analysed (which I am doing at the moment), as when you look at them, they often don't stack up (as is happening now as I go through his edits). Shot info (talk) 00:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Making accusations about the quality of other editors content has no place in the ANi. If you want to do that, there are places that you, or Prester John for that matter, could have taken it up for community discussion. It's not up to any single editor to stand over and follow another editor to delete content or follow them for harassment. It's not up to one editor to unilaterally block another editor by deleting or reverting. That's what this report was about. If you want to discuss the quality of content there are other places where that can be raised.Lester 01:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Editor's editing histories are available for all to see. I and other editors are free to point out here that perhaps the admin's block in this regard was excessive, not because that admin is necessarily incorrect but possibly did not take into account the undue weight and poorly sourced content that actually was added. After all, PJ is not incorrect with his edits, his only crime really was not discussing them initially on a talk page. Shot info (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

However such consideration suggests this was the only offence, rather than the last in a long litany of them going back more than a year and spanning at least three unrelated projects with different sets of editors. Orderinchaos 13:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Support this block - it's overdue. Prester has a long history of incivility, revert warring, introducing POV or removing material critical of the Liberal Party of Australia, and goading others (especially Marxists and Muslims, for some odd reason) on his user page. His edits at Australian federal election, 2007 over a 24-hour period a month ago demonstrate his typical approach. The Miltopia case last month represented a shift from the very top in how Wikipedia treats and regards long-term problem editors whose actions do not benefit the project and waste hours of productive editors' time, and I don't see why this situation should be any different. (Re Lester: in my observation he is a well-meaning, good-faith editor who at times has adopted unhelpful positions, although he was always far from being the worst offender of those of an opposite POV to Prester, and has demonstrated recently that he is learning from earlier mistakes) Orderinchaos 06:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Support block. I don't know anything about Lester's history, but he can pay for sins separately. It has no bearing on the need to rein in Prester John's ongoing disruption. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

IP socks of banned User:Mariam83 on rampage

Despite being banned months ago, Mariam83 (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks confirmedsuspected) has been on a rampage tonight. Using four different IP addresses (see below), this disgruntled editor made around 70 reverts to various articles. Initially most of the edits were reverting Mariam83's favourite articles back to their preferred versions, however after C.Fred (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) semi-protected those articles, Mariam83 started reverting random edits made by those editors who had reverted, reported, or blocked the various socks. The socks used tonight include the following (all four were blocked by different admins for 3 to 31 hours):

• 64.219.76.51 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 68.89.175.189 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 68.91.120.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 71.156.123.200 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

When dealing with Mariam83 socks, I normally just roll my eyes and go crazy on the 'undo' button. However, this time Mariam83 uncharacteristically left the following message [10] on a talk page: "You cant block me, I'm unstoppable. You just try! I will make your wikipedian life a living hell BUDDY! he he he :-)" Unfortunately I fear that Mariam83 is correct about being unstoppable. To date there are approximately 106 suspected socks of this user. (See Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Mariam83 for the entire list.) The amount of time editors have spent reverting and blocking these 106 socks is probably quite breathtaking.

Is there anything we can do to stop or at least slow down this banned editor? --Kralizec! (talk) 08:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

In the time it took me to research and write the above, Mariam83 has another 29 52 reverts via 68.90.62.202 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). --Kralizec! (talk) 08:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Another 21 reverts in sock attack number six from 68.89.189.234 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). This has been a long night ... I think it is time for me to go to bed. --Kralizec! (talk) 09:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It is getting quite out of control. The user has been IP-hopping all night, causing a large backup of reverts and protections to unravel. Jmlk17 09:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Do we know what service provider the user is using? I wonder if it would be appropriate to do a single 5, maybe 10-minute range block across all those IP addresses (just to make the point that no address on that system will work)? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes... I've already sent them a request to stop the abuse months ago but received no response. Instead, i only receive her harassing emails frequently under different email accounts. She could even create a gmail account w/ my full name. The easiest way to deal w/ this case is WP:RBI. Range block would not work since the IPs she uses cover different areas in Houston, TX. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 20:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you must have really pissed her off FayssalF; she even vandalized your comment here at AN/I [11]. --Kralizec! (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I stopped her from harming Wikipedia and its users. Threats of violence remain common including threats of 'visiting me in the near future' and 'sending someone to beat me' (threats via email). She just doesn't listen. Again → WP:RBI. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Her persistence is quite apparent. In her latest attack on the project, I count 167 vandalism edits spread across seven different Houston-area IP addresses. --Kralizec! (talk) 14:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Finding a more proactive solution than WP:RBI for our Mariam83 vandalism issue may not be as insurmountable as I initially thought. After doing research with some of my employer's reverse DNS lookup tools, I was able to determine that even though the seven IP addresses used in her latest attack appeared to be spread across multiple Class-A and B networks, all seven IPs resolve to the ADSL address pool used by Southwestern Bell for Houston, Texas. --Kralizec! (talk) 15:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Duke o Puke and Wikipedia Review

There's been a recent discussion about Duke o Puke (talk · contribs) and Duck of Luke (talk · contribs), see #User blocked for username requesting unblock for name change. Duck of Luke recently created the article SureFire M6 Guardian, which is now up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SureFire M6 Guardian‎. It appears that he may have been asked to do so by Wikipedia Review. See [12]. Aecis^Brievenbus 18:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• I removed the sentence saying Jimbo has one. We would not include that if it were, say, Matt Damon. Guy (Help!) 19:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• I've blocked Duck of Luke and deleted the article. My actions may look overzealous, but that WR discussion makes it obvious that: (1) the article wasn't created in good faith (2) it was created because Jimbo owns one such flashlight (3) this article is created on behalf of banned user Daniel Brandt. MaxSem^{(Han shot first!)} 19:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Editing on behalf of Daniel Brandt isn't the wisest move. Agree with your block and deletion. The article was created with the intent of banned editors like Brandt getting to add content to the site, which is a big no-no. — Save_Us_229 20:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If it's proven that he was meat puppeting for a banned user, I don't disagree with the ban however I disagree with the speedy deletion of the article. The AFD should have been allowed to complete and there was a consensus that the article should have been kept. I believe the rationale for deletion (WP:CSD#G5) was invalid because Duke of Luke or Puke wasn't the only editor to that article if I recall. I can't tell for sure as the article has been deleted. Also, if I recall, deletion based on the motivation for creating the article is not reason enough to delete the article as long as the article can be improved and add value to the project. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 21:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I've looked at the history of the article, and the only author was Duck of Luke. The other editors made maintenance edits: adding cleanup tags, adding wikilinks, categorizing, etcetera. Aecis^Brievenbus 21:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

My interactions with the Duke/Duck are that he is a very reasonable person. I ask that he be unblocked and warned not to recreate the article. He has been an editor in good standing prior to this and I believe he will contribute positively to Wikipedia if he is unblocked. Looking over the banning policy, I believe that he had to be banned first before creating the article before it can be deleted according to that CSD rule. Many Wikipedians like myself endorsed keep on the article not knowing of external influences. Regards, Ripberger (talk) 00:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

We should judge an article on its content not on the motives of the creator. Paul August ☎ 03:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That's what I think. Wikipedia is a reference work. I also believe that we should focus on the content, not the contributor. Ripberger (talk) 03:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree and that is what I said above. It's a moot point now as someone else recreated the article unless it's going to be speedy deleted again. I would recommend the version before deletion gets restored as it had more information was better sourced and categories attached. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there anything about the creation of this article that was so disruptive tat it required an indefinite block? AniMate 04:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that the block was for meatpuppetry for a banned user (apparently one that seems to be widely disliked but I don't know the whole story). The article seemed benign to me though. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It was closed with "Anyone is welcome to recreate this page in good faith", so just go and do so. DGG (talk) 04:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There's still the issue of the Duck/Duke being blocked. I'm certain he will not be a problem for anyone if unblocked. Just give him a chance. He's done great work for the project well before this brouhaha and the article he started was well-sourced. I do not see a reason why he should remain blocked. Regards, Ripberger (talk) 08:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

From WP:BAN:

Editing on behalf of banned users

Wikipedians are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned user, an activity sometimes called "proxying," unless they are able to confirm that the changes are verifiable and have independent reasons for making them.

No-one's disputing that it's verifiable; the article has even been recreated now. He's explained his independent reason for creating the article. (he thought it was cool that it was the same flashlight that a friend has)—Random832 17:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Just two notes on this: (1) Does it really matter whether an article was inspired by something somebody said on one of the notorious so-called "attack sites"? What should matter is the merits of the article, not how it happened to come about. (2) Wouldn't this discussion have been much harder to understand without the link to the relevant thread on the site in question? That's precisely the point I've always been trying to make with regard to the insistence on the part of some that no links to "attack sites" should ever be permitted under any circumstances. *Dan T.* (talk) 17:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

While it is irritating that it was posted by proxy for a banned user, there is absolutely no excuse to delete a perfectly good, well referenced, highly notable article. There is no possible reason that the deletion of that article in any way enhances the encyclopedia. For the record, I have a SureFire M6 as well as an M3. I used them on my rifle in Iraq, as did quite a few others. Surefires are almost ubiquitous amongst military and law enforcement. I understand the text of WP:BAN but there is no excuse to take an action that directly damages Wikipedia for the sole reason of punishing an already banned user. That's just not what we do.

I've unblocked the user, on the condition that he does not edit by proxy for Brandt again in the future. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 18:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Beenturns

Unresolved

 – Can we have some opinion on whether Beenturns is a sock or not? Cheers! Davnel03 20:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The only edits of Beenturns (talk · contribs) so far have been to nominate Seung-Hui Cho, the perpetrator of Virginia Tech massacre, for deletion. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seung-Hui Cho. Very suspicious, to say the least. This appears to be a sockpuppet out to prove a point, possibly in relation to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert A. Hawkins. Aecis^Brievenbus 22:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

regional power article.

The regional power article has been protected because of an edit war. I would ask you to please review the history of this article, to see how this problem started. Argentina has been listed as a regional power for months. I included it several months ago, after finding reliable and objetive external sources that backed up its inclusion, and after a respectful discussion with other wikipedians. You can check that by checking the history and talk page of the article. A couple weeks ago, this user Kardark started removing Argentina for no apparent reason. He just said that "it was not a regional power", without any sources to back that up. I reverted his changes since they were of a vandalistic nature, and I also looked for two more external sources stating that Argentina is a regional power, bringing the total up to four. But he wouldnt care, he would keep removing Argentina without a valid justification, and in order to do that he would sometimes use his username and sometimes just an IP address. Because of this, he was warned. You can check his talk page history to confirm that. Of course, I would keep reverting his changes. For this, he started calling me a "fanatic" and a "troll". The truth is, he is removing sourced information because of his personal opinion. He has not given any solid argument to counter the four external sources cited in the article. I dont think thats OK. And what he has done now is, removing Argentina once again and then protecting the Article, so it cant be included. Everything I explained to you can be checked by looking at the history of the article. Please assist. Aletano (talk) 04:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

the protection seems to have been placed by an uninvolved admin, not by Kardark, (who is not an admin and thus unable to place protection on an article.)DGG (talk) 04:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand that. Why I am trying to report is:

First, he has changed the article and asked for protection inmediately then, (20 minutes later) that way his changes cannot be reverted. I think that page protection should keep the status quo until concensus is reached instead of protecting the change he wants to introduce (the removal of a country).

Second, I was hoping you would review the history of the article and take some intervention regarding the following: That user engaged in vandalism (unjustified deletion of sourced material), personal attacks on my user page that I had to remove, and terms violation by using sometimes his IP and sometimes his User Name to avoid detection and the to avoid the 3RR rule. Aletano (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Still waiting for admin intervention. Updating to avoid archive. Aletano (talk) 03:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring over removal of fair use images

Over the last several days, there's been a slow edit war happening at List of characters in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. A discussion has taken place at Talk:List_of_characters_in_Grand_Theft_Auto:_San_Andreas#Removal_of_fair_use_images_from_this_article. The use of fair use images on lists such as this to depict individual characters has been deprecated. This sort of usage became deprecated subsequent to Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy, which generated considerable debate on first implementation (see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-05-07/Fair use). Other highly similar article types have seen this action of fair use removal (such as discographies and "list of characters in..." type articles). See WP:NFCC on minimal use, and first sentence of WP:NFC#Unacceptable_images for further guidance. This sort of removal has become routine. Nevertheless, and despite my best efforts to educate the people on this particular article, these users are insisting that a consensus must form in order to remove the fair use images from this article, regardless of policy and prior consensus on articles of the same type. I need one or more admins to step in and put a halt to the efforts of these users to continue to force fair use images back onto this article in ignorance of policy. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 05:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Well, the article has now been protected but the dispute rages on. It's quite apparent from discussion at Talk:List_of_characters_in_Grand_Theft_Auto:_San_Andreas#Removal_of_fair_use_images_from_this_article that as soon as the protection is removed, the images will be re-inserted. I'm now accused of edit warring as well. One of the contributors to the discussion is also now trying to make the argument that this "List of characters in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" isn't a "List of characters" page, and thus the policy doesn't apply, since the article should be renamed "Characters of ..." The pro-image group is trying very hard to come up with a legalese way of getting around our policies and Foundation dictums. Help, beyond page protection, is needed. Please. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• And now I am being accused of vandalism and selective targetting. [13]. Some help please? Please? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This has extended now to List of recurring characters from The Simpsons, where User:Ctjf83 is forcing 25 fair use images onto this character list. Some help please???????????? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A somewhat barren argument, since the Foundation, as I understand it, has said that Fair Use will cease at the end of March 2008, and so from 1st of April readers must expect to see denuded and boring pages; they will therefore go and find a more lively and entertaining encyclopedia. I suspect many editors here will follow, if not lead, this exodus. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 19:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You understand wrong on every count. Firstly, if these were your images and were worth a considerable sum of money, you wouldn't want them decorating articles, userpages and wherever else people want to put them, you would want their use to be as limited as possible. Fox or whoever owns the copyright to these images are no different. If we're not prepared to restrict their use dramatically, the copyright holders will go to court and make the decisions for us. Secondly, we're trying to create a project where the content is as free as possible, users downstream having to justify fair use just because we think it makes the project less boring is grossly inappropriate and unfair.

I find it exceptionally unfair and completely against our ethos when pages cannot be edited because of fair use edit warring. I'm going to make this abundantly clear, I'm prepared to block anybody that edit wars images into (and out of) pages against the consensus on talk page and such when these pages are unprotected. Nick (talk) 19:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Did you read my comment? Have I misquoted Foundation policy? Is my interpretation of its effect outrageously unreasonable? Where am I disagreeing with you on the principle? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 19:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

we have reduced the number of images, so problem solved Ctjf83 ^talk 19:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• No, it isn't solved. The use there is still against policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

i dont believe the policy says we can't have any images...why don't u construct to wiki in a more beneficial way...images enhance encyclopedias. Ctjf83 ^talk 19:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You need to use encyclopedic images, and you need to discuss these images in the text of the article. I assume you are doing this... Nick (talk) 19:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

i dont know for sure what you mean by "encyclopedic images", but yes, they are pictures of characters, and are therefore discussed in the text Ctjf83 ^talk 19:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Be aware; I've just requested the protection to be removed from this article. I give up. The fair use inclusionists have come up a contortionist argument that this article is somehow unique, and it's not a list of characters at all. I'm gobsmacked. But, be aware the fair use inclusionists that don't like our mission are about to push a large number of fair use images onto the article. Good day, --Hammersoft (talk) 21:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please stop the sarcasm. I was willing to partake in a productive discussion and achieve consensus, but instead it turned into a brawl. I specifically said that I only wanted a few images for the main characters, at least the main antagonists as I agreed that there were far too many images in the article. My beef was not about the images, but why you removed them under the claim that 'images simply cannot be on lists whatsoever' which you did not justify. Also, just because Wikipedia's mission is to create a free encyclopedia does not mean Fair Use content is not permitted at all. Judging by your userspace, I think your stance on fair use is bordering on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. As I said, I was willing to discuss it in a productive and civil manner. Now the whole thing has become disruptive which is why I have put in a Request for Comment. .:Alex:. 16:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

EpicFlame block

I just noticed that EpicFlame, a user I help out from time to time, was blocked on 13 November by GlassCobra. The block seems pretty unfair: as far as I can tell, it was for recreating an "attack" userbox in userspace that was only referenced from the user's own page. EpicFlame was a valuable contributor, and was indef blocked without warning. Can anyone shed any light on this? I've asked GlassCobra for details, but did not hear back in his last session of editing. -- Mark Chovain 06:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That userbox was previously deleted by ST47, as an attack page, and was recreated by EpicFlame with the edit summary "Take that ST47!". The user also had a number of other userboxes in the same vein, such as User:ShooterBoy/UserBoxes/youreadouche, User:EpicFlame/UserBoxes/lovestotorture and User:EpicFlame/UserBoxes/douchebag; had moved the first userbox out of his userspace to the templatespace as Template:Youradouche; and had the page User:EpicFlame/Epilepsy2 in his userspace, which consisted of a series of flashing GIF animations and was created with the edit summary "YAY! EPILEPSY! *DROOOL*!".

All of that probably had something to do with the block too. --bainer (talk) 07:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, Mark, for not getting back to you in a more timely fashion. Thebainer is absolutely correct in his observations here. I had blocked the user for creating these obvious inflammatory userboxes and pages. Even User:Mschel, his adopter and mentor, agreed that the block was just, especially when seeing EpicFlame's verbal lashouts directly after (for example, this), as well as creating a sockpuppet to try to evade his block. Coincidentally, EF just today requested unblocking again, but was denied. I hope I've alleviated all concerns. GlassCobra 09:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• "Indefinite?" You banned for that? Yikes. I have no sympathy for the adolescent behavior, no use for it, no support for it, but an indefinite block? That's not something we ever do without considerable support. Is there a history of blocks going from 24 hr to a month? Is there use of the community noticeboard? Indefinite is inappropriate, if this is really the reasoning. Adolescence is a disease state, but most people get cured of it on their own, and before "indefinite." Geogre (talk) 10:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree, though that shouldn't come as any surprise given my recent posts on this topic over the past weeks. Immediate indefinite bans are judging future contributions on past behaviour. When you have no previous disruption recorded in the block log, you are judging on one incident. Much better to issue a short block and strong warning, and then see if the behaviour changes. Blocks can cause people to change their behaviour, but not unless they get chances to demonstrate changes in behaviour. And expecting them to grovel on their talk page to get unblocked is not really an educational experience. Any real change in behaviour will be learned 'out there' after they've been unblocked. Or not. Indefinite banning too soon is likely to lead to the creation of sockpuppets or other forms of block evasion, especially if they are an inexperienced user. Carcharoth (talk) 11:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
    • To be fair, your hypotheticals are a bit flawed; how an inexperienced user would react to such a block is irrelevant when discussing the indefinite block (not ban) of a user that clearly knows how to function in a wiki and decided to use that knowledge to be inflammatory. EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't be a dick. Or, rather, one can hardly be faulted for thinking such crude humor is the norm on Wikipedia, given the many examples that one can find. Deleting it as a personal attack was inappropriate in any case, as there was nothing personal about it (still may be a valid CSD-T1, but some deletion reasons carry with them an accusation against the author of the page, and we need to be careful _not_ to make those accusations when they're not valid). A block is warranted, but an indefinite ban is way out of proportion.—Random832 14:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I noticed my name come up here, and would like to explain my position. I was very much against the original block of EpicFlame, and thought it was unfair. I still hold to that position, but do not think he should be unblocked as his behavior after the block deserved an indef. --Mark (Mschel) 19:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Actually EpicFlame is a sock of Indefinitely banned vandal we all know as W00t, who is a troll from "Encyclopedia Dramatica" and he also has many other accounts on Wikipedia..I believe the indefinite block was justified....--Cometstyles 22:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Really? How did you find that out, Cometstyles? GlassCobra 16:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Harrassment from Save Us 229

Resolved

 – Davnel03 17:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute, this wasn't exactly resolved, just rightfully told to move elsewhere. Guroadrunner (talk) 07:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've dropped it. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 07:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Save_Us_229 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been following around user:Jtrainor and myself. He first threatened me on this page when I request administrator intervention when I discovered he's been stalking J and asked him on his talk page not to harass the other user. Since then he's been restoring removed comments on my user talk and has restored personal attacks on this very board. Please help. The stalking and harassment needs to end. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You, of all people, complain about "stalking and harassment"? Mad world... pedro gonnet - talk - 10.12.2007 09:15

Do you have a point? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah you obviously don't get what WP:POINT means. It doesn't outlaw making points, my dear, it just outlaws disrupting the encyclopedia to make them. Maybe you should read what you're citing once in a while. I'm so tired of seeing people bring up WP:POINT in whatever unrelated situation they feel like as a means of getting people to shut up. 212.219.57.59 (talk) 13:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you really are bringing this up for no reason. Look, Jtrainor said he wasn't going to post the comment anymore, I have no grudge against him. I won't have a grudge with you for no reason. If you actually read the last few messages from your talk page, I told you this. I also told you I refractored the 'threat' if you considered it one. Please actually read what I write. I also told you following a users contributions link to discussion about the issue at hand doesn't constitute harassment or stalking. In addition to that, if you want to talk someone about personal attacks, I'm not it. — Save_Us_229 09:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I won't feed this one. Thanks. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes, because you can't possibly admit a fault of your own when you called me a wikistalking troll and a ass. 'I won't feed this one' to get a non-response from you is exactly the kind of conduct I have a problem with. — Save_Us_229 09:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(EC) That seems to be your preferred way of ending discussions you don't like, doesn't it? pedro gonnet - talk - 10.12.2007 09:31

It beats trying to shout the other person down. Repeatedly trying to enlighten those who have shown they have no interest in listening and refuse to accept when they are wrong is pointless. I don't fight windmills. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I said you were acting like an ass to Jtrainor. Content, not contributor. Not a personal attack. Your habit of following people around and making "helpful" comments when they are unnecessary is trolling. Your continued replacement of removed comments on my talk page is harassment. Threatening me is harassment. Got it? Good. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

How is refering to me being as 'ass' commenting on content and not the contributor? That is a personal attack if I've ever seen one. Jtrainor has nothing to do with this anymore, his issue is resolved. Furthurmore if you have a problem with other comments of mine somewhere else, please state it. — Save_Us_229 09:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I said that your contributions, your helpful remarks on Amib and M-ERC's user talks, were unnecessary unhelpful and stalker-like. They are both grown ups who can think for themselves and don't need you to spoonfeed them. Your response to me suggesting that following around Jtrainor like that could be seen as harassment and stalking was met with a threat "if you ever post something like that on my talk page again". Screw this. I'll just ignore you from now on. Wikibreak go. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If you thought they were unnessecary, the Right Thing to do is not come to my talk page and ask me why I did that; the Wrong Thing to do is come to my talk page and accuse me of stalking and harassment. As I said, that "threat" as you call it, I already refractored, and is still refractored at this minute (and I only refractored because you said you felt threatened by it). — Save_Us_229 09:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I suggest all involved just take a step back, as continuing to accuse each other of wikistalking, harrassment, personal attacks, trolling, whatever, is not helping the dispute at all. The whole point of bringing this here is to get an opinion from other administrators how to act on the issue, not to continue to make accusations. Spebi 09:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been done with this discussion, but it seems someone can't let it go. — Save_Us_229 09:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Its fucking hilarious that you chose that particular diff. Hilarious. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not hilarious at all. The purpose of this noticeboard is to allow administrators to advise other administrators and other users how to act in a particular situation or issue. From what's been said already, it doesn't look like any of you have the intention of sorting out the problem properly. Cool down, stop making comments that aren't helpful, and if you need to make a comment, think over the reactions of your comments. Spebi 09:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please, all of you, take Spebi's good advice and cool down. Now. There are no good places for edit warring and incivility. This page is a really bad place for these things. Tonywalton ^Talk 09:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Whoa - this isn't the best place to be airing your dirty laundry. Take everyone's advice and take a break. Shell ^babelfish 09:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Just so I know, does anyone else feel the same way Kyaa the Catlord does? Feel free to critique. — Save_Us_229 10:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I too noticed retaliatory or disappointing comments from Save Us. I'll be the first to admit I made a joke vote -- being cheeky -- at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Emily_Sander, but if you read the conversation under mine, you'll see the following tit-for-tat argument:

*Delete ****s don't belong on wikipedia.--Tripsones 08:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC) — Tripsones (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Neither do you. — Save_Us_229 08:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Come on now, if that's not a failure of WP:CIVIL, then I don't know what is. I also looked into Save Us 229's edit history and noted some other uncivil comments she/he made. Guroadrunner (talk) 10:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well if you're wondering what the 'censored' word was (which btw I didn't remove) it was "sluts". That was one of the editors first edits. It was obviously a single purpose account. — Save_Us_229 10:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That example is simply unfair. I believe a lot of normally civil editors would find it challenging to stay chipper after a spa insults a recently murdered young woman. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, according to his/her personal userpage, this user was known as Moe Epsilon before Noveber 2007. Guroadrunner (talk) 10:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User TeePee-20.7's posts after ban block

I'm reluctant to engage this user personally but feel some attention should be given to their recent posts. I was going to simply delete this per WP:RBI but then saw they're again referring to other editors as maricons which they were specifically told was inappropriate. If someone else could step in I would appreciate it. Benjiboi 11:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• More User:Iamandrewrice collateral damage (not sockpuppetry, I think; this editor seems to have been caught in the crossfire). I'll have a word. Tonywalton ^Talk 11:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• My bad I meant to say they had been blocked not banned - will try to be more careful about mixing up those on wp. Thank you for dealing with this. Benjiboi 11:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• Actually, Tony, I don't see this as resolved. I found his message on my talk page agressive, and his continued defense of the use of either Queer or Maricon highly inappropriate, as well as restoring the homophobic slurs for which he was blocked immediately after he returned. I also found his edit summary decidedly uncivil when he deleted my respose to his message to me from his talk page. That was after your little chat with him, by the way. Most annoying. Jeffpw (talk) 13:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, Jeffpw - let's keep an eye and see if his behaviour reverts. Tonywalton ^Talk 16:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd like more than an eye, actually. I'd like to see the homophobic slur about me reverted from the pages he restored it to. At least one of the diffs is in the original post of this thread, and he restored it to another page as well. It baffles me that he could be blocked for making the slur, and then no action is taken when he repeats the remarks immediately after returning. Jeffpw (talk) 16:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• And he has now readded the homophobic slur once again, after TonyWalton reverted it and left a message on his talk page about it. This user seems to have a complete lack of understanding of WP:CIV. Jeffpw (talk) 14:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Clear cut personal attack by User:Kmweber

See also: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kmweber 2

Resolved

 – Consensus is no violation of NPA occurred. Davnel03 17:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Well known at WP:RFA for his stock opposition to self nominated RfA's, Kurt has stepped it up a gear with (in my view) a clear attack on two admins [14]. I've asked him to strike it [15], but he's presumably off-line. I've resisted blocking for this, but I'm extremly irked by it, to say the least. Other input would be appreciated. Full conversation is at Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/PrestonH#Oppose Pedro :  Chat  14:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

For Kmweber, There were a great many other ways to express that sentiment without breaching WP:NPA. "I'm not satisfied with those users' work as admins", for example, or "Those users don't embody what I think an admin should be" would be milder versions. In context, "The age of those admins concerns me as well" would be a much better version. The language used, in this case, is undiplomatic at best, and a personal attack at worst. Concerning. ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I see a personal remark and a not-so-positive opinion. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 14:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a pretty clear personal attack - to say someone is "poor" at something is pretty harsh in my view. Redrocketboy 14:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

He's entitled to his opinion. I wouldn't describe it as a personal attack - he's attacking their work as administrators. Just because it is critical doesn't make it an attack, or a personal one. Avruch^Talk 14:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a clear calculated attack, and it's obvious he has no idea who those admins are, as they are two of the best. Redrocketboy 14:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I know it's hard to assume good faith when it comes to this because of his RfA choices, but I'm not sure we should assume it's a 'clear calculated attack' and that it's 'obvious' he doesn't know who they are. You may think they're two of the best, but that shouldn't preclude him from disagreeing. Epthorn (talk) 14:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What? Attacking someone's competence to do something is quite obviously personal - if that's not a personal attack, I'd hate to see one that is. He's perfectly entitled to his opinion, as wrong as it may be - per NPA he's just not entitled to post it on Wikipedia. BLACKKITE 14:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm about to go off-line, so can't provide further input. I think I was tempted to block because of my own personal irritation at the comment, and that's a very good reason not to block. It would be vindictive not preventative. Hopefully he'll log on and just remove it. Hopefully. Pedro :  Chat  14:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

To be honest Pedro, you have prejudiced any action taken by opening with "Well known at WP:RFA for his stock opposition to self nominated RfA's, Kurt has stepped it up a gear..." There are ways to report such incidents without appearing to be trying to cast someone in a bad light. I also note that you have said: "I'm extremly irked by it, to say the least". I'm glad you refrained from taking action this time, but please, a word of advice to you and others - don't take admin actions, like blocking, in the heat of the moment. As you've said, if you find yourself upset, angry, incense, livid, or whatever, that is sign enough that you may not be not calm and objective enough to make a sensible decision, so passing it over to others to make a decision is best. Carcharoth (talk) 14:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That is a good point, Carcharoth. Luckily Pedro did not block, as there's disagreement here, but still, Weber should strike it, imho. Redrocketboy 14:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Undiplomatic... but I'm not sure it warranted quite the quick response right to here. I have to say, as rude as it may seem, questioning one's abilities as an editor and admin should probably not be considered attacks as it would castrate much of the RfA process, would it not? If people simply take issue with the way in which he said it... well, unhelpful...? Yes; but I'm not sure the meaning would have been any different had he said "I'm not satisfied with those users' work as admins" as suggested above. I just don't see it as such a strong attack as do some others here, I suppose. Epthorn (talk) 14:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, I don't believe he introduced them into the conversation. Had he done so I think it would have been more egregious. He was responding to someone else's point. Epthorn (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Undiplomatic?? No - it was a personal attack. Don't make excuses for him. It isn't a one-off: Kurt has been repeatedly warned about his disruptive behaviour at RFA, and has already been blocked for it once, he really does need to be aware that he is inviting another, longer, block with such antics. BLACKKITE 14:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'll bite- do you think that telling me not to "make excuses" for him is going to convince me here? Incidentally, while I don't agree with his views, consensus did not seem to favor that block, if you look at the rfc which can be found here. Epthorn (talk) 15:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that he should be blocked for this, only made aware that this was similar behaviour for which he was previously blocked (and was unblocked after he agreed to cut out the disruption) BLACKKITE 15:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the consensus on that RfC seems to indicate that the community favors MORE honest voting and the exchange of opinions on RfA. We definitely should not discourage or cultivate a culture of fear of retribution to those who are willing to speak up, even against admins and when their opinions differ from the norm. (Not in the articles, of course, but in things like RfA or RfArb and the noticeboards.) Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 15:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I like where you're going with this. If you're insinuating that it's alright to launch personal attacks on other editors in certain areas of Wikipedia, then you are dead flat wrong. BLACKKITE 15:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus, at this time, is that no personal attack is found here. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 15:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant to your previous point. But having just read your userpage and talkpage history, I don't think I'll bother carrying on this obviously pointless conversation. BLACKKITE 15:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes you can't do anything right around here. Forget it. I couldn't care less. Someone else can try and uphold some standards. I can't be bothered. Pedro :  Chat  14:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Being able to speak openly should be guaranteed on a page which opens after the link prompts you to "voice your opinion". Mr. Weber has a strong opinion and voiced it. Nothing to see here. (Besides, that's got to be the weakest possible attack ever complained about.) Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 15:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well if you think that, it must be alright then. Obviously, I have walked into an AN/I in an alternate universe where WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA have been replaced with WP:ABUSEISFINE. On a more serious point, if mild incvility is OK, where is the point at which it doesn't become OK?BLACKKITE 15:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. He may be wrong but that doesn't make it a personal attack. In the context of a discussion about the ability of minors to be administrators, he expressed his opinion that they are poor administrators. Not knowing them at all, I couldn't comment on whether he is correct or not - but he didn't attack them in the context of a content dispute, and it certainly wasn't an egregious assault on their character. Avruch^Talk 15:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I still think he could have made his point in much better ways, without coming close to crossing the line into personal attacks. It should be noted, as well, that - whether it was his intent or not - the comment did end up disrupting the RfA, if only briefly, by causing a reaction. The user has been cautioned against disruption at RfA, which may have influenced the reaction to the comment. ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that he should be cautioned and probably should have thought about his statement before making it (I don't know if he did). Luckily, as has been established, disruption at a RfA isn't as bad as on the mainspace, and the crat would probably disregard his statement. Epthorn (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I often disagree with Kurt's RFA views, but I still can't find a way that this is an attack. He opined that young admins don't work well, someone mentioned two they thought did good work and Kurt followed by disagreeing. He didn't call them stupid or use profanity or even say Ni at them. We all appear to disagree with his opinion, but we'd be insane to start calling criticism of an admin's performance an attack of some kind. Shell ^babelfish 15:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not a personal attack. We're allowed to say someone is doing a bad job. Now, we shouldn't go around saying it for no good reason, of course. Anyone thinking about blocking for this, please don't. Friday (talk) 15:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that's the difference right there. "I do not think that X is doing a good job as an admin; my reasoning is .....(reasons)" is generally OK, but a flat "X is the worst admin on Wikipedia" is a personal attack, IMO. BLACKKITE 15:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please stop misrepresenting Kmweber's comments. It is disruptive and unhelpful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, subject to certain limitations; and there seems to be a consensus among users that the concerned user was not uncivil. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 15:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

He has said it for no good reason though... he hasn't provided any reasoning. I doubt he even knows the admins in question. Redrocketboy 15:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

He had just as much reason to say it as the person who brought them up originally. His opinion of youthful admins is that they do a poor job. RfA is where you share your opinion on how well someone will do as an admin, based on whatever criteria you give. His was youth. He had a good reason to support his contention that youthful admins do a poor job when his opinion was challenged. Had he been more forthcoming in giving his reasons why he feels that way we'd probably not be having this discussion at all. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 15:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

So? If you really care to know his opinions, ask him on his talk page. I've never known him to be shy about clarifying his opinions when asked. Just please don't disrupt the RFA over it, and there's no reason to bring it here. Friday (talk) 15:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

-So people are allowed to bring up two admins by name to praise them and use them as a reason to support young admins but then any dissent and attempt to counter that must be away from the RfA? That seems a little unfair. Someone tried to refute his argument by using two examples- if you want to prevent him from responding to that he might as well be banned.(this is not directed at Friday. Well, at first it was, but then I realized who he was responding to. It gets tough to keep track...Epthorn (talk) 16:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC))

I agree. Once the discussion has gone off-topic (from the user in question), people should be allowed to respond in like manner. Really, the whole discussion on ages should have taken place at WT:RFA. Carcharoth (talk) 16:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed it isn't a personal attack. All he said was that some people are poor admins, and that isn't a personal attack any more than "you don't write very good prose" is a personal attack. This is not to say that Kurt's well-known behavior at RFA is not disruptive, which I believe it is. This one comment, however, is not the problem. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC) :: Note that he's either asleep or playing it cool by avoiding this entire mess and thereby will claim that his one sentence did not justify it... Epthorn (talk) 15:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't try and second-guess motivations and future comments. It makes it harder for him to say that or anything else. Carcharoth (talk) 16:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

He's very much awake, he was discussing it on the #wikipedia IRC channel earlier. Redrocketboy 16:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

-Fair enough. I do find it at least slightly odd that the disruption here doesn't involve the person who is accused of being the disrupter. Statement above struckout, regardless of the truth of the matter. Epthorn (talk) 16:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have better things to do with my time than come and deal with this every time someone tries browbeat and threaten me into changing my mind. Given the frequency with with this occurs, it appears that this is all that it is; there appears to be a pattern of simply trying to make it so that disagreeing with you is not worth my time. I'm not going to let you get away with it. This is all I will say here. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 16:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that he's not over the line of WP:NPA or WP:CIV in this particular case. He's allowed to hold opinions on the performance of admins and other editors, and RfA does seem to be a reasonable forum to express those opinions.

That said, it also isn't a personal attack for me to note that in general Kmweber's comments at RfA are seldom (if ever) helpful to the process; I base that assessment on their inherent assumptions of bad faith, their lack of evidentiary support (through diffs or reasoned argument), and their inflammatory tone. I believe that unless and until Kmweber moves to correct these deficiencies, his comments will continue to be a net negative at RfA, generating only heat and not light. I hope that at some point he chooses to express himself with more nuance and detail, but it is a faint hope at best, given that he has been asked to do so on many previous occasions.

Finally, it is not a personal attack for me to note that I am quite sure that the 'crats are aware of Kmweber's unique approach to 'contributing' to RfA, and I am quite comfortable assuming that they give his comments about as much care and thought as Kmweber himself does. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A nice assessment, ToaT. I think it would be best if, like the bureaucrats, everyone ignored Weber's opinions, unless of course they add something relevant to the discussion instead of irritating and causing all this drama, Redrocketboy 16:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A user above says Attacking someone's competence to do something is quite obviously personal - if that's not a personal attack, I'd hate to see one that is. He's perfectly entitled to his opinion, as wrong as it may be - per NPA he's just not entitled to post it on Wikipedia. Does this mean that we are no longer allowed to criticise admins whom we perceive to be incompetent? DuncanHill (talk) 16:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

He's bluntly said they are poor admins, with no thought or research to who those admins actually are. Perhaps if Weber could tell what he finds so wrong with them, then we'd be better off. Redrocketboy 16:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(Comment restored after Epthorn removed it for whatever reason) Stating an opinion that a user is a poor administrator is not a personal attack. By that loopy reasoning we would have to block everyone who opposes in an RFA. Neıl ☎ 16:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, I have no idea how that happened. Epthorn (talk) 16:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - I'm registering a strong objection here, both to Pedro's initial "Well known at WP:RFA for his stock opposition to self nominated RfA's" and Ten of all Trades' "in general Kmweber's comments at RfA are seldom (if ever) helpful to the process". In the RfA in question, Kmweber's comment was the following:

  "I can't support this user. Users with editing patterns such as <NAME> (lots of vandal-fighting and copyediting; little in the way of actual new content) tend to develop a fortress mentality that is not a desirable trait in an administrator. While the kind of work <NAME> does is necessary, and I have no problem in general with those who do mainly that, I don't want them being administrators." (name removed)

  This, to me, is a clear and well-reasoned oppose. It may be a touch too generalised for some people's liking, but that's always been a problem at RfA, and not one restricted to Kurt. There are other clear and well-reasoned comments I could point to as well. I've noticed Kurt's behaviour at RfA is slowly changing and improving, and it appears to me that some people aren't giving him the chance to change and may be holding a grudge of some sort. Kurt is sometimes still a bit prickly and forthright, but please don't hold him to impossibly high standards because of past behaviour. Carcharoth (talk) 16:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I know nothing about this incident, but if people are looking at a pattern of personal attacks by Kmbeber, you may want to take this into account. It's from April and it was offwiki, but it may nevertheless paint a picture. [16] SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fasach Nua disrupting IfD - 2

Resolved

 – Both sides resolved on ANI and dispute taken to DRV. Will ^(talk) 16:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Why was this thread closed? [[17]], was it resolved, was the single edit disruptive? Should the closure have been made by the admin who was the instigator of the mallicious complaint? Fasach Nua (talk) 15:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Something you probably should discuss with User:Edokter. — Save_Us_229 16:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Does he get to decide all those things? It seems strange to report something to this forum, and also be the individual to decide the outcome! Fasach Nua (talk) 16:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Hence why I said to discuss it with him. — Save_Us_229 16:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have taken your advice and posed the question on the user's talk page, [[18]]

You have closed a discussion on this forum, whilst there was an ongoing debate, it is unclear if it was decided that this single edit was disruptive and whether the problem has been resolved, I would request that you state the outcome of the discussion. In closing this discussion it also appears to me that you have a conflict of interest and I would appreciate it you could also supply a reference to the policy of guidance you are working under, many thanks Fasach Nua (talk) 16:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I am unconvinced of the merits of this! Fasach Nua (talk) 16:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have also put a note here, I am happier now Fasach Nua (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I closed it because the discussion was being sidetracked, and I wasn't receiving any substantial input from other admins. You should be glad... I effectively withdrew the complaint. Let's leave it that way, because I have absolutely no intention of putting any more energy into it. — Edokter • Talk • 16:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The ifD was closed as disruptive, if the complaint is withdrawn, then there was no disruption, and the ifD should run it's course, yes? Fasach Nua (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Once again: Go to deletion review. — Edokter • Talk • 17:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I am happy enough that this had been resolved Fasach Nua (talk) 13:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you feel that way. To all, I will say that I am sorry for unilaterraly undeleting the old image in the first place. I should not have done that, and will never do such a thing again. — Edokter • Talk • 16:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Fixthepedia

Resolved

Per description on #wikipedia, Fixthepedia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to fallen into the wrong end of the machine.

As the user has outlined, he was banned on the basis on another user's assertion that he is a sockpuppet of FixtheBorder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The two accounts have edited the same article, which appears to have provoked the assumption of synonymity.

Further, Fixthepedia asked for unblock, but because he didn't provide a proper rationale for unblocking has been now blocked for editing his own userpage as well, and thus of having a chance to properly phrase his unblock request.

NB: I'm just forwarding the complaint as described on IRC. It seems strange that Fixthepedia would take so much trouble to insist that he isn't Fixtheborder; after all Fixtheborder hasn't been blocked, and if they were identical, Fixthepedia wouldn't have anything to gain by taking the trouble. I have advised him to ask for username change should he be unblocked.

-- Fullstop (talk) 16:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There were 5 turned-down unblock requests, and the checkuser was pretty definitive the two accounts are the same person. FixtheBorder (talk · contribs) is often-blocked, and is so at the moment for a month (see [19]) - did you even bother to check? Neıl ☎ 16:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I did actually check. 16:24, 10 December 2007 appears to have been after I checked. :) -- Fullstop (talk) 16:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, FixTheBorder got blocked at 15:24, after Yamla turned down the request I posted after talking with the user in IRC for some time. So FixtheBorder was not blocked at the time Fixthepedia asked for unblocking. Did you even bother to check? ;) Anyway, as the unblock request on his talk page says, his contribs don't look particularly problematic, nor that similar to FixtheBorder's, he has a plausible explanation for the positive checkuser result, and he says he's been editing from a different location from last 3 days, so a checkuser could easily establish if he's telling the truth. Zocky | picture popups 16:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well if there is evidence that its strong enought to actually open this case again it should be presented, this case seems like it was done by following the duck test, he may be trying to game us by editing from a different PC and trying to get that established by a new CU. - Caribbean~H.Q. 16:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Evidently, (so Yamla's comment) the checkuser wasn't just based on similarity of edits, but a real checkuser that determined that they are from the same IP range as well. Thats pretty conclusive IMO. -- Fullstop (talk) 17:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Fullstop, from that exact 1 hour difference between the time you quote and the time Zocky quotes, I wonder if your account didn't pick up the end of Daylight Saving where you are. I noticed just after the end of October here in the UK that some times were showing as UTC/GMT and some as BST (GMT+1), which confused me for a while. "my preferences/Date and time/Timezone/" was the key. If I'm teaching my granny to suck eggs here, apologies! Tonywalton ^Talk 17:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not clear whether the checkuser established that they both edited from the same IP range in the last 3 days, or at some point in the past. His explanation is at least plausible, and unless somebody can find something actually wrong with his contributions, I don't see why we wouldn't believe him. After all, in an open system like Wikipedia, there's no way to tell for certain who is using how many accounts. We should care about the edits, not about the identity and motives of users. Zocky | picture popups 17:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

He is editing the same articles, from the same IP range, with virtually the same username. What other kinds of evidence is it possible for us to have? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 17:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Not the same IP range. The same IP. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

How hard is it to understand? The name can easily be a coincidence, and he says he edited from a dorm where 6000 other people live. And there's an easy way to check if he's telling the truth. Even if he is the same person with split personality or whatever, this account has done nothing wrong, and has contributed constructive edits. Why in the world would we want to prevent him from making the encyclopedia better? Zocky | picture popups 17:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any harm in requesting an additional CU. Since there are no disruptive edits, unless he was trying to fabricate a consensus using a sockpuppet (which hasn't been alleged, but is possible) if the new CU shows him to be editing from somewhere other than FixtheBorder today (since both are editing) he could be unblocked until he actually does something wrong. Avruch^Talk 17:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Qualify: No disruptive edits on User:Fixthepedia - clearly history of disruptive editing and personal attacks on the other one. Difference is telling, perhaps. Avruch^Talk 17:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

New CU? Sure, that's easy. It's not exactly difficult to access from two different ISPs or IPs simultaneously; for example, someone might log in with one machine on a dorm's network, and another machine dialing up. CU cannot prove innocence. The previous results are not erased by the current results, and the previous results showed they were most likely the same person. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Removing comments from talk pages

User:ChazBeckett has been removing a discussion between Radiant! and Wandering Ghost from Wikipedia Talk:Spoiler, arguing that it's 'not appropriate', 'between two people', 'concerns behavior not content'. I don't believe any of these justify the removal of people's comments, especially since they haven't signalled their permission. Whilst many admins will be sick of the spoiler debate, I ask you to consider whether Wikipedia will benefit from this sort of talk page 'sanitising' becoming established.--Nydas^(Talk) 17:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please note the thread was not deleted but moved [20] to User talk:Radiant!. A note was left [21] on Wikipedia Talk:Spoiler linking to the new location. The only two users involved in the thread were Radiant and Wandering Ghost and the topic was each other's behavior. A user talk page is most appropriate for such discussions. Chaz ^Beckett 17:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The talk page in question is for discussion of a guideline. That talk page has been plagued for months by accusations of serious misconduct, but those making the accusations seem to be unwilling to do anything but exacerbate any damage caused by repeating the allegations over and over again in the middle of policy discussions. This poisons the atmosphere.

Moving the discussions to user talk pages is good, but in the long run these people should be persuaded to follow the dispute resolution process, instead of picking at the wound. ---Tony Sidaway 17:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The clear point of WP:TALK is that talk pages are meant for use in discussing changes to the corresponding main pages. We already remove comments from article talk pages that are unrelated to changing the article. It makes sense that, from time to time, it may worthwhile to do that on policy talk pages as well. I participated in the discussion on WT:SPOILER page for a while (my last comment there seems to be Nov 15), but stopped because I didn't see any progress being made. The talk page discussion was (and apparently is still) made excessively difficult by continued allegations about misconduct by editors. Moving those comments to user talk pages or dispute resolution can't hurt. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It can hurt if it becomes common practice on Wikipedia. Imagine people removing comments they don't like at the drop of a hat because they're 'off-topic'.--Nydas^(Talk) 19:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's already common practice. However it's not quite how you describe it- we remove comments to keep talk pages on topic, not because we "don't like" them. This is a crucial difference. Disagree with the removal if you wish, but please don't describe it inaccurately - it's unhelpful to productive discussion. Friday (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but one can be selective in removing off-topic comments. Nobody is without bias, so the best thing to do is to live and let live.--Nydas^(Talk) 20:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

An even better idea than "live and let live" is to keep the postings on-topic, in which case there's no need to move them. Also note that the whole thread was moved, including posts from both "sides" of the dispute. Again, it's about keeping some semblence of order and moving topics to where they belong. Chaz ^Beckett 20:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The page WT:SPOILER is plagued by irrelevant, accusatory, troll-like behavior by two or three editors, including the editor who opened this comment. As explained at WP:TALK, talk pages are for improving the project. They are not the place for launching accusations of abuse, misconduct, or bad faith. Wikipedia has other mechanisms for dealing with those allegations. Marc Shepherd (talk) 18:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Deleting (or moving) a thread from an article Talk page needs implied consensus by the Talk participants. I don't perceive any general view by the active editors that moving this thread was correct. It is somewhat less intrusive if you 'box up' comments that you deem inappropriate for the article talk page using the {{hat}} and {{hab}} templates. This is easily reversed, and it still allows the suppressed thread to be viewed. EdJohnston (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

In this thread, only one editor is complaining that the thread was moved; all others agree that it didn't belong on the Wikipedia talk:Spoiler. Chaz ^Beckett 20:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(To Marc) I've hardly touched the page for weeks. As I say, I think your interpretation of the various talk guidance pages is both unprecendented and open to conflicts of interest. Arbcom's ruling on personal attack removal (that it should be done sparingly, if at all) seems to me to apply equally to 'off-topic' removal.--Nydas^(Talk) 20:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it may be your interpretation that's unprecedented. ArbCom has never ruled or implied that off-topic discussions shouldn't be moved to more appropriate locations. It's common practice and good organization to do so. Chaz ^Beckett 20:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Why not? WP:NPA is a policy, whilst WP:TALK cited by Marc is just a guideline. Why have strict, sparing interpretation of a policy, but lax, free-for-all interpretations of similar guideline? Especially given that personal attacks are far more serious than 'off-topic' comments, and much more worthy of removal.--Nydas^(Talk) 20:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Once again, the discussion was not deleted. It was moved to a more appropriate location, the talk page of one of the two participants. Removing personal attacks is somewhat controversial as the comment doesn't exist afterwards. In this case, it was just moved. Just like when someone moves a file from one cabinet to another; they're not throwing the file away, they're moving the comment to a better location. Chaz ^Beckett 20:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I support the removal of the off-topic comments as long as a reference trail is left for those who want to depart to that thread. The hostility was overwhelming the progress. --Kevin Murray (talk) 22:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It should be emphasized that this isn't a casual move taken over a few comments. The attacks on that page have been going on for about five months, all parties making them have been, and continue to be, urged to seek a proper path to dispute resolution over their grievances, but the majority of discussions on the page continue to be plagued with such attacks. Moving the attacks to user talk pages is a last ditch attempt to avoid taking action to stop this longstanding disruptive activity unbalancing the discussion. --Tony Sidaway 06:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of wrongdoing

Moved from WT:SPOILER

Allegations of editor/admin misconduct do not belong on this page. This is the page for discussing the Wikipedia Spoiler guideline. Contributions to this page should be on the presumption that all participants have a good-faith and policy-compliant intention of improving the encyclopedia. For those who believe that either bad-faith or policy-violating behavior has taken place, this is not the forum. Marc Shepherd (talk) 16:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've moved some of the discussion to a user talk page, as it was only between two users and focused on behavior instead of content. Chaz ^Beckett 16:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I find accusations of "censorship" to be fairly absurd, as the content was moved, not deleted and a link to the new location was provided. I fully agree with Mark that this is not an appropriate forum for allegations of misconduct. Chaz ^Beckett 17:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, to the admin's noticeboard we go. It would help if you could cite policies, guidelines and precedents to justify your actions.--Nydas^(Talk) 17:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, how about keeping talk pages focused on the topic at hand. Dicussions between two users about their behavior belong on well...user talk pages. Chaz ^Beckett 17:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You can claim anything "isn't focused on the topic 'at hand'". What gives you special insight? --Nydas^(Talk) 17:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussion was between two users and the topic was each other's behavior. It doesn't take special insight, just common sense, to realize this belongs on a user talk page. Chaz ^Beckett 17:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Nydas asked for "policies, guidelines and precedents". Here they are. Per WP:TALK:

• The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views.

• Assume good faith and treat the other person in the discussion as a fellow editor, who is a thinking, feeling person, trying to contribute positively to Wikipedia, just like you

• Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal.

• Be positive: Article talk pages should be used to discuss ways to improve an article; not to criticize, pick apart, or vent about the current status of an article or its subject.

Noted there as justification for removal include:

• Deleting material not relevant to improving the article
• Removing personal attacks and incivility

Allegations of editor/admin misconduct, no matter how strongly felt, do not help improve the the Wikipedia:Spoiler project page, and therefore do not belong on this talk page. Marc Shepherd (talk) 18:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

And above all: Wikipedia is not a battleground. Disputes between editors are taken seriously, but there are procedures and guidelines that should be followed in order to resolve a dispute rather than exacerbate it. Some of these allegations go back to mid-May, this year, and the disputants should by now be aware of the appropriate methods of resolving disputes on Wikipedia. --Tony Sidaway 18:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:TALK states editors exercise caution in editing other's comments and seek permission. Declaring 'I'm going to remove them unless an admin tells me not to' is not cautious, it's effectively a declaration of page ownership. --Nydas^(Talk) 19:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is also getting off-topic. I'd recommend continuing it on the ANI discussion you started rather than here. Or even better, just dropping the whole darn thing. Chaz ^Beckett 19:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Declaring an discussion you are involved in as 'off-topic' is a conflict of interest. If you feel that certain comments are unncessary, why not ask an uninvolved admin to take a look? They could discuss things with Radiant! and Wandering Ghost and hopefully come to a mutually acceptable conclusion.--Nydas^(Talk) 19:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, just drop it. It's verging on disruption at this point. I've no idea why you created an ANI topic if you were just going to continue the same conversation here. I'm backing out of the discussion as it's gone so far off-topic. Use my talk page or the ANI topic if you feel the need to continue arguing. Chaz ^Beckett 20:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not about a conflict between me and Ghost, this is about him continually telling me about alleged improper deletions and admin abuse, despite having been told several times already that we have forums for such matters. >Radiant< 23:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The editors who've been removing content from this talk page know it riles some editors up. There have been many long discussions about this; the page would be less cluttered if editors refrained from removing content. Unless they want cause arguments, which would mean they're trolls. --YellowTapedR (talk) 05:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussions would have been much shorter and more protective if editors stopped accusing each other of "bad behavior". --Farix (Talk) 12:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

They would be shorter if the anti-spoiler people didn't feel the need to police the discussion they're involved in. It's disrespectful and wide open to a conflict of interest. Part of the reason the removal of spoiler warnings is so damaging to Wikipedia is that the tactics used could spread to other, more important stuff.--Nydas^(Talk) 15:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Penis Image

Resolved

 – Reverted. Davnel03 20:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm copying this report from WP:AN, since it involves vandalism. I have every faith that this is the same issue as the (resolved) penis vandalism discussed above, but can't verify whether it's fixed or not since I am at work. The report follows. Thanks, and I apologize if it's already taken care of. I've indicated at WP:AN that the issue is under review. ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 17:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody take a look at this page Juan Manuel López (boxer)‎ and fix whatever the hell is happening there? to be precise I'm getting a image of someone's "package" over the article, superimposed if you will and the addition of such a image is not present in the article's history so I guess a hacker is messing with the page. 24.139.156.65 (talk) 16:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The medal template was vandalized. It should be fixed now.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 17:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Hurrah! A bit of staightforward penis vandalism. Business as usual after the drama? Too much to hope for, I think. Guy (Help!) 19:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

User talk pages and the right to vanish

User:DashaKat (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has invoked the "right to vanish" and requested his user and user talk pages be deleted. He had previously done so anonymously, but he finally logged in this afternoon to make the request. However, he has a number of warnings in his user talk history (e.g., this archived version includes civility and RfC abuse warnings). Wikipedia:User page says not to delete talk pages in such circumstances. Both User:Friday and I have refused to delete the page, but DashaKat continues to push the issue. Is there any reason to grant the request? —C.Fred (talk) 18:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Only reason I can think of is if it's simply quicker and less dramatic to delete it and be done. But, we have good reasons for not generally deleting user talk pages. In my view, we shouldn't give in to drama queens, because by doing so we're sending a message that we'll make exceptions if only you whine sufficiently. Not a good message to be sending. Friday (talk) 18:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Has this user agreed to leave the project permanently, without changing his or her mind in the future? The account is not blocked and I have not checked to see if the user promises not to continue editing in the future, either with that account or with another. I don't see a compelling reason in this case to delete the page but it is sometimes just the easiest option, so long as the person promises to never come back (see permanent departure, WP:VANISH). --Yamla (talk) 18:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it. Such a promise would be meaningless and unenforceable. Why would we ask for one? Friday (talk) 18:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If there's been no reveal of personal information and if the user is not planning on leaving the project permanently, there's no grounds under WP:VANISH. --Yamla (talk) 18:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The other thing this user has mentioned is that "three other accounts" of his have had their talk pages deleted. I'm tempted to ask him which accounts they are, to check their talk histories and the reasons for deletion. (Maybe they had clean histories, so deleting the talk page was a non-issue.) The flipside of that is, he won't want to admit it openly, lest it go into the talk page history. Have him email the names? —C.Fred (talk) 18:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm with C.Fred on that point.--Hu12 (talk) 18:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm leaning in the "do not feed drama" direction. Unless there's privacy violations there, there's no compelling reason to delete the page, and it does document violations. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Quackwatch talk page

The problem brought up in Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive337#Quackwatch continues. The article is fully protected because of this disputed information and the arguments are basically, as Adam Cuerden put it,

"Quackwatch is NOT scientifically peer-reviewed! We MUST say that!"

"Well, yes, but they never claimed to be. Do you have any reliable source in a notable publication mentioning that?"

"Quackwatch is NOT scientifically peer-reviewed! We MUST say that!"

"Without a source, that's original research and a violation of WP:SYNTH"

"Quackwatch is NOT scientifically peer-reviewed! We MUST say that!"

"ARRRGH!"

The arguments began 27 November 2007. Over 400 edits to the talk page later and we're making little or no progress. --Ronz (talk) 19:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• The page is Quackwatch and Talk:Quackwatch. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 19:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Pardon me for replying here, but would this be better considered by article request for comments? —Whig (talk) 21:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Like Adam Cuerden, my concern is that the discussions are just going in circles. We've already had a large number of outside editors give their perspective after two requests for outside opinions. --Ronz (talk) 21:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Huh? A great many publications are not peer-reviewed, many of which are respected & reliable sources. It's insisting statements about a presumable negative condition, for example "Seattle is a city in Washington state of the United States, and not a neighborhood of Tel Aviv." I'd share a real example of this from Spy magazine many years ago, but I suspect it would be redacted due to WP:BLP. -- llywrch (talk) 22:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That's like trying to prove to certain people that the moon is not made of green cheese. Graham87 23:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget the crackers, Gromit. Guy (Help!) 00:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Must be a misunderstanding. but your summary isn't an accurate depiction of the conversation at Talk:Quackwatch. I'm sorry you see it that way. --Anthon01 (talk) 02:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

In your edit summary, you said, "you've misrepresented the opposing POV". Misrepresentation is a serious accusation. Please back it up with diffs or remove it. Please indicate which editor you feel is misrepresenting something. Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 03:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I apologize if my previous comment offends anyone. I don't see any reason to remove it. What Adam and you have effectively done with the above summary is say those with the opposing POV have said nothing more than "Quackwatch is NOT scientifically peer-reviewed! We MUST say that!" Do you feel that is a fair representation? --Anthon01 (talk) 05:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't that it offends, but that it's pretty inappropriate per WP:TALK to make such personal accusations here, much less in an edit summary. However, as I noted on your talk page, as a new editor, you may not be familiar with the use of "misrepresentation" in WP:TALK.

I quoted Adam because I thought it was close enough to what is going on. I also clarified my own point of view with my initial comment, and my reply above to Whig. I also added 16 diffs to your talk page of your own comments on Talk:Quackwatch to indicate exactly what I mean.

I also preferred Adam's summary because it did not list any specific editor nor any specific section of the discussion. It expressed his frustration, and my own: that no matter what is done, the responses are changing little if at all. --Ronz (talk) 05:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not think the language properly represents the discussion. —Whig (talk) 05:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Instead of complaining, how about helping to progress the discussion along? --Ronz (talk) 05:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll make an RFC/Article. That should help. This doesn't seem to be the place for content disputes. —Whig (talk) 17:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

A big campaign against articles about fictional events

• See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=TTN for a sudden big bout of "deleting" articles about fictional events, by changing them into redirects, usually with the edit comment "Redirect per WP:FICT. Do not bring this back without adding real world information.", thus avoiding having to speedy-delete-tag them. For some of the resulting discussions, see:
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of locations in the Star Fox series
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of creatures in Primeval
  • User_talk:TTN#Deletion of Primeval episodes matter

Anthony Appleyard (talk) 19:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Compare, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters/Proposed decision. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If my memory serves me, someone was indef blocked for the same behavior a couple days ago. If I were TTN, Collectonian or any of the others who've joined in this crusade, I'd be taking notice. Yesterday. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 07:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

If you have the Augean stables to deal with, strong measures are needed. The domain of pop culture fiction is full of cruft, there's no denying it. Somebody just has to start cutting into it. How else would anybody do it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You know... actually improving the encyclopedia by working on it is a start. There are also tags, work groups, wikiprojects, talk pages. These editors on a crusade do not seem to be willing to work with others collaboratively, rather, they jump past the normal steps that should be taken before an AfD and either attempt to unilaterally merge the articles or AfD them. The unilateral merges are worse, imho, since these turn into edit wars where the crusaders (for lack of better term only) tend to react with incivility. NPA says that dismissing arguments due to affiliation with any group is out of bounds, but you don't see these guys getting chastised or warned for it when they dismiss others as "fans". Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

If an editor sees no realistic prospect that an article could be improved, then getting rid of it is precisely the only rational thing to do to improve the encyclopedia. What else? I mean, seriously, something like this hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of ever approaching the status of a legitimate encyclopedic article. It's lightyears away. And in the - extremely unlikely - event that somebody actually does come up with something interesting to write about it, they can still un-redirect it. But why earlier? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, TTN and company aren't doing this only to clear cases like the one you linked to. They are doing it to major characters, episodes from notable television programs and main characters from video games. In many cases, these articles would have met with at least no consensus keeps at AfD, but since they can, via mass merging, cut out the whole discussion and inflict their preferred remedy upon Wikipedia. I note that you did not address the NPA infractions that I voiced concern about... Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, who do you say was blocked the other day? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Kill the Non-Notable Articles (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The case is not quite the same, this user was actually tagging things with CSD notices. At least in those cases, someone could catch them in the act. The delete via unilateral "merge" (I'm quoting merge cause nothing is actually merged in 90+% of these cases) is even sneakier since the only trail is the users contribs. At least CSD notices place the articles in a cat and, potentially, lead to a review by a deleting admin. Here is the ANI thread: [22] And I believe the user was reported prior to his final meltdown. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Not the same at all; a vandal coat-tailing on this issue. --Jack Merridew 09:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

He only turned vandal after being caught and reported here, though. And I did say the case was not quite the same. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Every time someone complains about TTN and cites something he's redirected and every time I look at what he's been up to, I find more dreck. Perhaps if the fans all cry along the shores of the Alpheus and Peneus rivers, TTN can sort this mess once and for all. --Jack Merridew 09:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for dismissing other editors simply due to them being fans. As I pointed out earlier, this is against the WP:NPA policy. Simply because an article is bad, or cow dung as you nicely linked to, does not mean it cannot be cleaned up. And that is the gist of my argument, these users do not care about cleaning up arguments, they are focused solely on deletion or deletion via merge. And in the vast majority of cases, they do not discuss these merges and if they are questioned, they respond in an inappropriate manner. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I did not mean that as a personal attack — I was attempting a bit of wit re the Augean stables. The cow dung reference was based on my immediately previous edit adding the term to Augeas. I do not share your view that many of these articles can be cleaned-up — in the sense that an encyclopaedic article may emerge from the dreck. In many cases the requisite sources and out-of-universe information simply don't exist. I've looked at a lot of these articles, have engaged in lengthy discussions, and have responded reasonably to those with different views. --Jack Merridew 14:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm trying my best not to name any names in this thread, but you're not someone I've ran into acting in an incivil manner in regards to this issue. (Although, your support of TTN in his arbcom case troubles me somewhat, but I'm dealing and hoping for a positive result in that.) And um, big greek words went over my head. Sorry. :P For the matter at hand, I think CBM's cut to the core of the dilemma regarding the vast majority of these articles. I'm not even fanatic in my inclusionist feelings for a lot of these articles, I just don't like the tactics being used. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 14:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

A quick précis re the big greek words: Hercules cleaned a huge load of shit out of King Augeas' stables in a single day by routing two rivers through them instead of mucking them out one messy shovelful at a time. TTN really has not being particularly uncivil; just look at all the talk page posts he makes. --Jack Merridew 14:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully subscribe to one Arbitrator's assessment of the situation: "TTN is making a good-faith effort to implement an editing guideline and is encountering resistance from individual editors who contribute a type of article that policy does not encourage. The massive scale upon which TTN is working reflects the ease with which unreferenced pop culture articles can be created and populated with in-milieu information, and the popularity of this kind of editing." [23] Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

In the very same edit, which you linked above, the same Arbitrator proposed: "The parties are urged to engage in centralized discussion of underlying editorial guidelines and their proper application rather than adopt a piecemeal approach." This seems to support my "go discuss before leaping into broad merge frenzies" point. TTN, and this isn't only about him, may be doing the right thing, he just seems to be doing it in a way that isn't ideal and may be disruptive overall. Afterall, Wikipedia seems to be awfully popular with people interested in Bleach (manga) and he just AfD-ed three bleach related articles. In the end, if TTN and company delete all these cow dung and that cow dung happens to be what most users of the encyclopedia are reading, what purpose does the continued existance of Wikipedia serve if it loses its userbase? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 10:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't for stuff people are simply interested in, Wikipedia is for knowledge that can be documented from reliable sources. When Wikipedia will lose that part of its userbase that doesn't get this simple idea, it will come all the closer to being a real encyclopedia. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

And here I thought Wikipedia wasn't supposed to be the next Encarta or Brittanica gathering dust in some small corner of the internet. I love how you dismiss those who use the encyclopedia, doesn't the reader matter? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 10:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is for knowledge that can be documented from reliable sources" - Poorly stated argument; everything from fiction and games can be documented to the primary source... which is perforce reliable on the subject of its own content. This isn't about reliable sources. It is, ostensibly, about notability. The idea is that every page in Wikipedia must be independently established as notable. That's a fairly standard and reasonable view, but it runs into conflict with the implementation of two other standard practices. Specifically, it is equally established that every fact in an article does not require independent notability... if the subject is notable and the information relevant and verifiable then it can be included. Further, it is standard practice to 'split out' sections of articles to help organize information - rather than having it all on one exceedingly long page. So what happens with these fictional topics is that relevant verifiable information gets split out for organizational purposes and suddenly people are saying that you DO need independent sources for the notability of each fact. That's a change from past practice and IMO a bad idea... it just encourages keeping all the info in one large article - which is counter to good article design under 'Wikipedia is not paper'. --CBD 12:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. At the root of this is a conflict between merging and splitting (per summary style). WP:NOTABILITY says: "If appropriate sources cannot be found, consider merging the article's content into a broader article providing context.". WP:SUMMARY says: "Wikipedia entries tend to grow in a way which lends itself to the natural creation of new entries. The text of any entry consists of a sequence of related but distinct subtopics. When there is enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own entry, that text can be summarized from the present entry and a link is provided to the more detailed article." The sticking point comes over whether the criterion for splitting out to a new article (or conversely resisting the pressure to merge) is just size or notability of the subtopic. Carcharoth (talk) 13:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

FYI, the real-world has commented on this issue. --Jack Merridew 13:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC) (thanks to Kww)

This one is better. [24] I love the spatula. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Some other lists we could do away with

Since we are so keen on deleting lists which do not cite reliable sources independent of the subject there are many others which should be considered;

• ISO 3166-1 - Article derived from primary source materials. No independent verification of notability. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.
• List of tallest buildings in Providence - Article sourced to open content web pages and building 'fan sites'. Wikipedia is not a city guide.
• List of defense of marriage amendments to U.S. state constitutions by type - Article derived from primary source materials. No independent verification of notability. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.
• List of Chicago Landmarks - Article derived from primary source materials. No independent verification of notability. Wikipedia is not a city guide.
• Flag flying days in Mexico - Article lacks sources. No independent verification of notability. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.

Go get 'em guys. There is a whole list of pages like these over here. Once we've taken care of the lists I know where we can find some articles with these 'problems' too. :] --CBD 17:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:Rfa

See also: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kmweber 2

I know that this is already here on the noticeboard, but I feel that Kurt is harassing any user that decides to nominate himself/herself for Adminship. If you look carefully at the current Rfa's you will see what I am talking about. I see only one other place that he has currently voted and that is also an oppose. It seems as if he is only voting on Rfa's that are self-nom and they are always an oppose. Isn't that harassment? Dustihowe (talk) 20:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep (as its my RFA, I do consider it to be harrasement). Davnel03 20:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(ecx4) No its how democracy works. You stand for a position and people take pot shots at the candidate. There has already been an RFC and lots of drama on this already. Kurt is entitled to express his view and the 'crats who assess the outcome are free to weight his comments accordingly. It all evens out in the end. Spartaz ^Humbug! 20:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is healthy given that quite a few people seem to be upset or hurt by his comments - it's having this effect on quite a lot of users now and regardless whether or not you personally believe it's a problem, it has to be considered one when this number of people consider it disruptive. Kurt knows some people consider it disruptive, yet he has carried on regardless - to me is increasingly looking like disruption of the RfA process. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

In my view it is disruption, in the RFA nomination stuff there is nothing that says you cannot nominate yourself. Davnel03 20:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing that says you can't nominate yourself the first day you're registered. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to oppose you for that reason. Epthorn (talk) 03:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Ryan. It's disruption of Wikipedia to make a point. I'd support an RFA ban for Kmweber, or at the minimum, an injunction against opposing on grounds of "self nom". ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 20:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yup; the correct place to protest is certainly not in the individual noms of other users. Surely there's a precedent for, say, an inclusionist who opposed every single AfD on the same principles? Chris Cunningham (talk) 20:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

In my view, his opposes should be removed. Something needs to be done to stop his opposes, that seem to spiralling onto all of the "self-nom"'s FAC. Has he shown any sign of backing down and communicating with other users? Davnel03 20:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not a vote: I seriously doubt that his one vote has swung a single RfA, because bureaucrats can weight it as they see fir when closing. Regardless, it's still a silly and ineffective way to protest. He's said that he's not backing down, but seeing as the whole point is to draw attention he seems willing to at least discuss the issue. Chris Cunningham (talk) 20:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Except, RFA is not a battleground for protest. You've just effectively shown that he is using this as his personal battleground. WP:NOT, WP:POINT. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 20:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This horse and every other animal on the farm have already been beaten to death. The bottom line is that the community accepts and supports Kurt Weber's right to oppose requests for adminship, despite how specious his reasoning may seem at face value. 68.193.198.41 (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

O RLY? Can you show me this consensus? Because it appears right now that there are a good number of people who disagree with it. Consensus can change, don't forget. And please show me where he has the right to oppose against a certain class indiscriminately?⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 20:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

YA RLY. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kmweber, which got comments from a far broader range of people than this pile-on here. --155.98.230.202 (talk) 20:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(ecx3)Joy. However, consensus is that these comments are not trolling and should not be removed. I hold no animosity to Kurt for his view point (and even have defended him in the past). But twice in one day we see his RfA comments at ANI (once by me, of course) ? Either the community accepts it's all okay, and everyone complaining about him is wrong, or Kurt accepts that his actions could be seen to be disruptive, as per Ryan. Let's also not forget that Kurt is also a very valued contributor across the project. Pedro :  Chat  20:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This and this are germane, as are several crats asserting that his opinions are OK even though little stock is held in them. 68.193.198.41 (talk) 20:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't find them that disruptive, but the disruption comes from the fact that a lot of other users do. If self noms were discouraged, I would fully support Kurt, but they are welcomed at RfA. Given this is not going to stop, or people are not going to stop being hurt by it, I would endorse an RfA ban at this point. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• It's not harassment, Kurt just has a closed mind on this issue. In the same way some other editors refuse to support children for adminship. RMHED (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(double edit conflict): A closed mind is not how we do things here. It's never acceptable to disrupt wikipedia for a point. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 20:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree that it's not harassment, but it is getting disruptive. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

So we are willing to "disenfranchise" a user who opposes candidates based upon their self-nom, and whose !vote can be "discounted" by a bureaucrat after close, but in the case of my failed RfA, trolling, disruption, mayhem, and sabotage by the sockpuppets of two banned users was allowed to occur and continue, with no consideration at all on the part of the closing bureaucrat? There's something seriously wrong here. - Crockspot (talk) 20:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Rude? Yes, but that is it. It is a perfectly legitimate reason to oppose someone for admin-ship. I would think the tone of the message could be altered, but you cannot stop someone from expressing a legitimate concern. IMO, however, blanket policies such as Kurt's are ill-advised as he does not appear to even consider the individual user, but again that is his perogative, even if not too many others appreciate it. But everyone judges one's character differently, and this appears to be how he is comfortable making that judgment. More power to him.--12 Noon 20:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I hope your statement "more power to him" is idiomatic, and you don't actually support giving more power to people who vote on RfA candidates ostensibly without looking at their contribs. - Chardish (talk) 20:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

More power to express your opinion to him. If he failed Kurt's litmus test, then there is not much point in digging deeper. Like I said, blanket policies are not my preference, but who is to prohibit individualism? Not me. --12 Noon 22:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Kurt's behavior is very disruptive. To be wary of users who self-nominate is acceptable, but to copy and paste the same vote on every self-nomination is disruptive to the RfA process, which is supposed to individually evaluate the merits of candidates. - Chardish (talk) 20:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Each time that comment comes up, more of the community expresses the opinion that he is being disruptive. I have not reviewed all of his RfA remarks, but in what I have reviewed, I have yet to find an oppose that was based on any apparent review of the candidate. Since RfA is supposed to be a consensus discussion, making a blanket statement without any knowledge of the candidate does appear to be disruptive in intent; it strongly appears to be nothing more than a WP:POINT. I agree that 'crats may well be overlooking his !vote, but I'm not convinced that resolves the actual problem here. Shell ^babelfish 20:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)It seems to me that Kurt's contributions to RfA are in clear violation of WP:POINT, therefore I am suprised that they are allowed to continue. They clearly are disruptive, otherwise no-one would complain. _TheIslander 20:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's a disruptive violation of WP:POINT. If he has a problem with policy, he should take it up on the policy page. Rklawton (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The WP:UNBLUEDPOINT is simple. Twice in one day Kurt's comments have been bought to ANI. Their validity is not the issue. The fact we've had two threads inside 12 hours is prima facie evidence that it's causing disruption. Pedro :  Chat  20:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Here's a novel approach: Ignore him. Let the crats give his !vote the appropriate weight. - Crockspot (talk) 20:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • It's been tried that way, and look where we still are. It's not the weight of the argument, it's the upset it's causing some users. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
    • • Too bad. If an admin candidate is going to get upset by an oppose vote, no matter the rationale, they have no business using the admin tools. What are they going to do when they take some REAL heat? - Crockspot (talk) 21:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
    • And those users should know better than to get upset. It may be a hard lesson, but if they are to make good admins, they need to learn when to let something go, and when something is not worth pursuing. Carcharoth (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I said this at the WP:RFARB, which is permalinked from the RfC, and I'll repeat it here. RfA has always been far more of a voting process than AfD. Banning someone from a voting process like RfA because you disagree with their opinions, or how they are expressing it, is fraught with peril. It is a slippery slope we don't want to go down. I advise those getting upset by the oppositions to examine themselves and consider why they are getting upset. Are they taking the opposes personally? Why can't they see those opposes as nothing to get worked up about? If anything, I'd say that Kurt's opposes are (unintentionally) serving a good purpose: namely bringing out those who misunderstand how RfA works, and who are too sensitive to an oppose vote, and are too easily upset by such things. It is a good test of admin temperament to see how the candidate reacts to a frivolous oppose. Carcharoth (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Crockspot took the words out of my mouth, ignore him and the disruption goes away. He has no other effect on RFAs....and if a candidate can't take a oppose vote that is destined to be ignored then they may be in the wrong place. RxS (talk) 21:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• And Kurt's only comment in the archived debate above (presumably aimed at me) was I'm not going to let you get away with it. No-one gave a fuck about that either, as far as I can see. So fine, let him issue threats, but as usual the big bad admins will just have to take it. Pedro :  Chat  21:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• The problem is that he is opposing for something that isn't even based in policy, and in fact, we explicitly allow what he is opposing for. If he doesn't like that, then he should try and change RfA policy, not oppose in the way he does. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• We explicitly allow you not to use edit summaries - but if you don't, your RfA will be clogged with opposes - this is specious reasoning. Anyone who can't tolerate specious opposes isn't cut out to be an admin. WilyD 21:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry, but we "explicitly allow" people to be uncivil and attack editors by giving them an "edit this page" button. Doesn't make it a good thing. Pedro :  Chat  21:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Well, no we don't, see WP:CIVIL for example, we explicitly disallow being uncivil. We allow opposes based on many editing behaviors that are explicitly allowed, focusing mainly on vandal fighting, not creating content, being young, editing a narrow range of topics and so on. There is no WP:POWERHUNGRYRFA. RxS (talk) 21:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with Carcharoth and others. How long until we see "Please oppose using the following list of community-approved reasons"? --Kbdank71 (talk) 21:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Radical idea: don't react to everything you see. Seems to me that a lot of drama would die a quick, silent death if nobody paid it any mind. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• We don't need a list of community-approved reasons to state that this reason is bogus. The fact that a common response is that the 'crats will ignore it just underscores that the post is not intended as a constructive comment in the RFA process. I would support a topic ban from RFA until Kurt agrees to contribute to the process constructively. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • One more - without saying anything in favor of Kurt's tactics - a single short sentence opposition is not nearly the response an administrator should expect to get the first time he or she blocks a persistent vandal. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 21:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• The disruption is being done by the drama queens people who get offended by Kmweber's opinions, not by his actual opposes. Friday (talk) 21:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

So you're basically happy with all of Kmwebbers contributions in the last 24 hours? There's been no disruption, incivility or threats that concern you? Pedro :  Chat  21:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• • I disagree. WP is not a democracy, and Kurt has no 'right' to express his opinion. If he doesn't desire to contribute constructively to the RFA process, it's perfectly reasonable for us to ask him to refrain from contributing at all. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
    • What the hell is RFA for, if not to express your opinion? Says so right at WP:RFA. Unless you mean, you have no right to express a minority opinion, which is what is going on here. --Kbdank71 (talk) 21:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
      • RFA is for deciding whether particular editors should be granted admin rights. It is not a general forum for expressing you opinion. Constructive comments are those which are intended to help make the best decision about granting admin access. Kurt's comments are not intended to do this - even those who support him making the comments say that his comment should be ignored. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Is Kurt actually following self-noms around and interfering with their other contributions? Or is he just saying he opposes them in their RfAs? If the latter, then I think calling it "harrassment" is frankly ludicrous. DuncanHill (talk) 21:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Restricting a user from participating at RfA is a serious action, and one that should only be taken by arbcom. I suggest that someone file a case there. - Crockspot (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't quite follow. With the demise of CSNB, this is now the designated forum to discuss topic bans. Restricting someone from RFAs still permits them complete freedom to write articles and contribute in the rest of WP space. Why do you think Arbcom must be involved? — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• The fact that this has come up here several times qualifies it for arbitration, and the "right" to express one's opinion about candidates who will hold the admin tools is one of the more important, as far as I am concerned. - Crockspot (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Arguments like "Here's a novel approach: Ignore him" and "Radical idea: don't react to everything you see" are helping no-one, and certainly aren't forwarding this conversation. "The disruption is being done by the drama queens who get offended by Kmweber's opinions" is just plain rude, and an attack in itself. If this had been the first time that this had been brought up, then yes, the above would be valid points to make. However, it's been brought up a number of times, so it clearly affects a number of people. For users to say "just ignore it" is kinda like a slap in the face for those that get upset by it. I think that people are forgetting that RfAs are not supposed to be "let's tear this candidate to shreds if they're not suitable" death-matches. Civility comes into this more than anything. An RfA is supposed to be discussed civilly, so if something upsets someone, there's a problem. It is to be expected that non-suitable candidates will apply through RfA, or else the entire system would be pointless. For this reason, arguments along the lines of "just ignore it" are plain rude. Clearly the community has tried ignoring it, as this has come up in the past, but the community clearly cannot do so if it is coming up repeatedly. Kurt is in clear violation of WP:POINT, and so appropriate actions must be taken. (Before I'm accused of having a slurred view on this matter, I'm actually one of the few that went through a self-nominated RfA without Kurt actually responding. If he had, I personally would have ignored it. Doesn't mean that others should). _TheIslander 21:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• One of the purposes of the RfA process is to gauge how a candidate reacts to stresses within the RfA process. In that respect, Kurt's spurious opposes have resulted in some enlightening reactions, and have thus actually been useful, at least to me. - Crockspot (talk) 21:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • A comment for which the right action to ignore it can hardly be called a constructive contribution to the discussion. The goal of RFA is not to goad the candidate to see whether he or she will respond well; if it were, we would find a better and more realistic way to do it than Kurt's comment. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Almost all supports are for no reason at all. If supporting for absolutely no reason is constructive, opposing for a reason many people consider silly is definitely constructive. WilyD 22:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
      • I agree it is appropriate to ask supporters to explain their reasoning upon request. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
        • On a more realistic level, why not try asking every supporter who doesn't include a detailed rationale for one and see how long until you're blocked for being disruptive? The standards for supports and opposes on RfA are different, even if they shouldn't be. WilyD 22:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• Kurt is prefectly entitled to oppose candidates for self-nom'ing, for using userboxes or whatever else strikes his fancy. The people harrassing Kurt about it are the ones being disruptive, not Kurt, who's merely being silly. If you don't want your suitability for adminship evaluated, don't apply. For fuck's sake, it's not a big deal that a silly oppose is applied to a bunch of candidates, and it's transparently not a violation of WP:POINT or WP:HARRASS or any other policy one can dream up. Leave the boy alone and they're be no problem. WilyD 21:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Kurt is not "entitled" to contribute anywhere. There is no "right to self expression" on wikipedia. If Kurt does not wish to contribute constructively at RFA< he should find a different area in which to contribute. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
    • He's an editor in good standing, so until some action is taken against him (community sanction, Arbcom etc) he has as much right to his opinions as anyone else. So in that sense he actually is entitled...as much as any of us are, and no less then any of us are. RxS (talk) 22:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Agreed. That's why we are discussing taking action against him in this thread. In the end, I think it is only a matter of time until some action is taken, as Kurt has not taken the opportunity to moderate his own comments on RFA. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh I don't know, I think the advice to ignore him is very sound. More folks should consider it. Your assertion that he's in clear violation of WP:POINT is not shared, nor is it a consensus view. I also don't think his opinion amounts to a death match. Not every perceived slight needs immediate action and community censure. RxS (talk) 21:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A significant number of editors appear to agree with me that he should be ignored, and after several discussions here on this topic, there appears to be a lack of consensus on what to do, therefore, my suggestion is to either ignore, or send it to arbcom. Crockspot (talk) 22:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A significant number of editors appear to agree with me that he is disruptive and should be topic banned. Your point? ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 22:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

My point was clear, and you have illustrated it further: There is no consensus. Therefore, either ignore, or file an arbcom. - Crockspot (talk) 22:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

...except it's already been before the committee, and their reaction was to trout-whack everybody involved. 68.193.198.41 (talk) 22:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, it seems the only point of this thread is to harrass Kurt over unpopular opinions, which is not appropriate. Work your way up WP:DR if you have a problem with him, there's transparently no support for community sanctions. WilyD 22:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow, how inappropriate is it to take a persons good faith complaint and refer to it as harrassment? I suggest you rescind that statement. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 22:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(too WilyD and copied from above) So you're basically happy with all of Kmwebbers contributions in the last 24 hours? There's been no disruption, incivility or threats that concern you? Pedro :  Chat  22:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There is an instance where he goes a bit over the NPA line, but it's not related to his habit of opposing self-noms. One might argue he should retract it or face a short block, although I'm not sure that's particularly worthwhile. WilyD 22:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The disruption stems from people replying to him, not him voicing his opinion. Perhaps someone should speak to them. John Reaves 22:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A comment which is best handled by ignoring it can hardly be called a positive contribution. An editor who makes such comments regularly, despite being asked to stop, can only be described as disruptive. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please put the straw man down. It's not helpful. The complaints are about RFA opposes, specifically, and there's nothing wrong with him giving his opinion in the appropriate place. If there are other concerns, they're separate concerns. Friday (talk) 22:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Pedro - you couldn't get support for your previous complaint about Kurt today, some might question just who is being disruptive or harrassing. DuncanHill (talk) 22:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks are unacceptable here DuncanHill. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 22:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't a personal attack, it was an observation based solely on the threads here today about Kurt. Is it OK to question Kurt's behaviour yet forbidden to questin Pedro's? Perhaps we could have a list of editors whose behaviour it is permitted to raise questions about? DuncanHill (talk) 22:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Aw gee, you found me out. I've only done this to harass Kurt, launched this thread myself, and indeed all the people above voicing concern are just my sockpuppets. Pedro :  Chat  22:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think a little more sarcasm would be helpful. John Reaves 22:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Okay, Apologies for the sarcasm. That's not helpful. Duncan, did you see the "I hold no animosity to Kurt for his view point (and even have defended him in the past). " comment of mine. Did you read the archived thread? I fail to see how I'm disrupting here. Sorry. Pedro :  Chat  22:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a hell of a lot of difference between "some might question just who is being disruptive or harrassing" and saying that someone actually is being disruptive or harrassing. The first is quite clearly an observation on how certain behaviour could appear to a disinterested observer. DuncanHill (talk) 22:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course. I think this thread needs defusing before we go any further. I've clearly upset the community and made some very poor choices and comments today. Obviously I'm clearly wrong and I apologise. Pedro :  Chat  22:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Two important questions are raised by this issue:

1. If you make decisions on every candidate with prejudice based on a single litmus test, and contribute to RfA in no other means, are you disrupting RfA?
2. If "no," then is every form of litmus test acceptable? It has been argued by some that a self-nom is a "legitimate" reason to oppose. Is it legitimate to oppose based on racial prejudice? Sexism? Ageism? Users with numbers in their username?

I also think it's worth considering that Kurt's comments would most definitely be considered disruptive if he pasted multiple paragraphs explaining his agenda with every oppose vote, rather than just a sentence. - Chardish (talk) 22:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Certainly some litmus tests are accepted (edit summary usage, for example). Others are not. The real point is that everyone has a deeper responsibility to the project to avoid making repeatedly making posts which lead to this sort of thing, especially when the likely outcome is already known. This doesn't mean that nobody should express controversial or uncommon viewpoints; it does mean that we should do so in productive rather than unproductive ways. WP (and RFA) is a collaborative environment intended to find consensus, not an adversarial system. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Another point is that Kurt is not the only person to be applying single litmus tests, or to have applied such tests. There have been periods when others have opposed on principles such as "not endorsed by a WikiProject", or even the more common "not enough edits" or "not enough experience" or "too young" or "1FA" (having produced one featured article). Those reasons aroused people's ire as well, but for some reason those who are deeply upset by this sort of thing are making a stand and want to make an example of Kurt. On the other side we have the "civil libertarians" (for want of a better phrase) who recognise that RfA is, at its heart, a liberal process that shouldn't be heavily policed and restricted. I know Wikipedia is not about democracy or freedom of expression or stuff like that, but equally Wikipedia is not a place where only "allowed" opinions can be expressed. Carcharoth (talk) 22:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • The 'not endorsed' opposes were equally deserving of a topic ban, since it's an impossible standard to meet. The 1FA meme had some significant following, which is important to remember. I don't believe it's possible to reduce this in a legalistic manner, so that all comments (or all litmus tests) are equally valid. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Can someone please explain to me in words of one syllable (I am a simple man) how Kurt's opposition to self-noms is measurably more disruptive than editcountitis? Guy (Help!) 23:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Point. That's what I think everyones getting at here. As I said, I personally don't find it disruptive, but the fact that many people do shows it most probably is. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
  • It is more disruptive because editcountitis doesn't lead to nearly as much wasted talk page space or as many ANI complaints. In other words, it's the duck test. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that it must be a full moon somewhere, & that's the cause of this tempest in a tea cup. (Sorry Guy, I couldn't keep all of that to words of one syllable. Maybe next time.) -- llywrch (talk) 00:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• STOP THIS. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. This proves that there are many who should not have the power tools, not when they believe a bit of criticism is a personal attack and/or harassment. This goes for those admins with the tools already. You lose respect that way. Wikipedia has two black eyes already, and this is adding insult to injury! Now stop it. - Jeeny ^(talk) 00:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• Jeeny that is an awful comment. Anyway, it is disruptive, because he does it on purpose, I would ask him to stop, and if not, start blocking. Maybe I am just mean. But most importantly, admin is not a position you run for. Well, it is, but it isn't supposed to be. It shouldn't be exclusive. Prodego ^talk 00:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• I don't know if he does it for the purpose of being disruptive, do you? Anyway, the double-speak is another major problem and is not going unnoticed. Don't you see that? This is not a networking site, it is an egalitarian collaboration to compile "the sum of all human knowledge". There are a lot of bright people contributing to this project and can see right through all the double-speak, the hierarchy and the hypocrisy. It's embarrassing. Now stop it. - Jeeny ^(talk) 00:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is what we make it. If you don't want it to be an encyclopedia, it won't be. The idea is for it to be one though. In that respect, you need to read Wikipedia:About, and you most certainly can't complain if we try to make Wikipedia into that. Prodego ^talk 01:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• You know, if there's anything Weber shows us is that some potential admins do have skin too thin for my taste. I am impressed when someone ignores or discusses his rationale, I am thoroughly UNimpressed when people threaten to block him unilaterally or break down over what is a relatively inane criticism (and one that is dwarfed by much more uncivil things that admins have to deal with)Epthorn (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• As I said previously, I definitely can't condone Kurt's personal comments on the admins above, but there is a world of difference between that and his spamming of self-noms which are routinely ignored by the 'crats anyway. BLACKKITE 00:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

RfA should be as free as is possible and reasonable. Ultimately, of course, KW has no 'right' except as we establish, but I don't see these numerous RfCs as establishing consensus. Does anyone really believe somehow things have changed since the last one and editors are ready to decide what people may or may not say at an RfA as grounds for opposing? I don't think so. The disruption here is not entirely of Kurt's making, and I think we should note that in this case the matter would have immediately died had people not kept bringing it up. Epthorn (talk) 02:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It's clear from this discussion that a significant number of people find Kurt's edits disruptive. That on its own should be enough to convince Kurt to change his behavior voluntarily. It is true the matter would die if others ignore it, but it would also die if Kurt would adopt a different strategy in his campaign against self nominated RFA candidates, so assigning fault only to those who find the edits disruptive isn't accurate. A certain level of collegiality is necessary. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes a certain level of collegiality is definitely necessary and a plus. But, it's a bit difficult when there is such an age disparity and education levels among the community. The "group" is divided into many mini groups. Also, a personal attack and what is considered disruptive is arbitrary because of those difference, along with cultural differences. Bringing this type of thing to AN/I is childish, unprofessional and disruptive IMO. Whining over a silly opinion is more disruptive than the posting of that opinion. Buck up. - Jeeny ^(talk) 04:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oh here we go again. Clear consensus is that his oppose votes, regardless of his reasoning, are valid. I also feel, like others above, that the attempts to disenfranchise this editor are much more disruptive and hurtful to the RfA process than anything he's done. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 05:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinion vs manner of expression

Many people above seem to be discussing whether Kmweber's points of view on adminship candidates, and whether or not he should be allowed to express them, which is really beside the point. If the arguments expressed by any participant in a request for adminship are irrelevant, or not regarded by the community as significant, or whatever, then bureaucrats can safely disregard them when evaluating the consensus.

The real issue is the way in which Kmweber expresses his views. Having the freedom to express one's views does not mean that one also has the freedom to be a dick when one does so. Kurt should be able to put forward his opinions, like anyone else, but if he can't do so in a collegial manner then he shouldn't do so at all. --bainer (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Please do try to persuade him of this, because the comments he is getting above seem likely to only harden his attitudeDGG (talk) 02:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Personally I think that Kurt has explained his reasoning over and over and over again, and seemingly each time the issue comes before the community ultimately it is decided that there is no consensus that he is violating any policy. Why, then, does this keep coming back to AN/I with roughly the same people on each side? It should be accepted that the community does not endorse the view that he is being disruptive. Imagine how much less disruptive it would be if it didn't keep coming back here? If RfA candidates are hurt or insulted by his comment, even though it is clearly not personal, then that fact on its own should call into question their fitness for the tools. If you want to judge the opinion of the community, start (yet another) RfC. If you want ArbCom's opinion, read the past decision or call for a new one. Hitting AN/I every 12 hours to try to get a different group of respondents is irresponsible. Avruch^Talk 03:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• For emphasis - seriously, why clog up AN/I with this stuff? Is this really the place to debate this perennially contentious issue, when everyone who follows it knows there is no consensus either way and that this is not part of the dispute resolution process? Avruch^Talk 03:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Consensus can change, and I would propose that each time this appears on ANI it is more likely to do so. Regardless of the merit of the edits, the fact that he continues to make them when they cause so much disruption reflects badly. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm a bit dismayed by the notion that something has to be offensive to be considered disruptive. While I don't find it particularly offensive (though its not my RFA) - its certainly annoying and quite possibly pointless. If he wants to have the rules changed or argue his opinion, the RFA talk page is the correct place to do it. Repeating his opinion on numerous RFAs is not the way to get the RFA process changed nor is it the way to get people to debate his idea. If he doesn't want either of those, then it is disruption. Mr.Z-man 04:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I find this line of reasoning circular. So, what, you propose that opponents of his keep bringing this to AN/I and therefore increase disruption ergo justifying sanction? This is getting worse and worse. Epthorn (talk) 07:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
      • No, if you are referring to my comment, note that I made no mention of the ANI threads. I said that it is disruption because he has been told numerous times that he is arguing his point in the wrong forum yet he continues to do it. Mr.Z-man 16:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Claiming that self-noms are "power-hungry" is assuming bad faith. Assuming bad faith, repeatedly, and focusing on editors themselves rather than one's perceived problem with the system (i.e. that self-noms are allowed), is disruptive, counterproductive, and offensive. - Chardish (talk) 04:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• I think great care should be taken in the labeling of civilly expressed opinion disruptive, particularly when it comes in a forum where it says "Voice your opinion" at the top. Not censored means more than not taking anatomical diagrams or Muhammad's face - it means that sometimes people have to deal with things they find unpleasant, because this is an environment that accepts the full spectrum of opinion as long as it is expressed civilly. Avruch^Talk 04:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oh, for goodness sake. The last debate over this topic was like two weeks ago, right? And yet it's back...on the theory that if we flog this issue long enough we might end up with a change of consensus. (Or the theory that if enough people yell about the underlying behavior, that yelling will eventually transform non-disruptive behavior into disruptive behavior because, well, gee, see how disruptive all the yelling is?) Seriously - have we finished the wikipedia, and now have unlimited free time to revisit this issue every couple of weeks? Can we hand out the trophies and have cake, or are some people still working on editing articles? This issue has been beaten to death, and none of the above discussion sheds any new light on it -- it just gives people new opportunity to become angry at each other. No, Kurt's views are not disruptive. No, it's not a violation of WP:Point. Yes, we all think he's wrong, but no, the community isn't willing to silence someone for holding a view we think is wrong. We've hashed, re-hashed, and re-re-hashed this -- at some point we have to throw a slab of corned beef on it and officially declare it hashed...and then move on. Here's an idea -- click here to start. --TheOtherBob 05:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
  • So people that are annoyed by his comments should not be allowed to express their opinions, but he should be? Mr.Z-man 16:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

We might actually be able to build a consensus for chocolate cake with cream cheese frosting. - Crockspot (talk) 05:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we discussed him already once today. And guess what, the overwhelming consensus was that he was doing no wrong. These petty little vendettas do nothing but amuse those who are "critiquing Wikipedia", if you can read through the lines. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 05:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

and I doubt very many people care what they think anyway. Personally, I find this entire debate hilarious, if for no other reason than there are other editors who have opposed an RFA nom becuase their nomination was not a self-nom. Ultimately, I agree that the beuracrats will deterimine the validity of an oppose (or support, for that matter) if it is important. Does it make a difference if a candidate passes 100-1 with the only oppose being one of these useless "self-noms suck" votes? Talk about a tempest in a teapot. If anything, the frustration over these types of votes indicates a lack of trust in the beuracrats. Ultimately, if you want to be an admin, you are going to become a target at times. Might as well face that as part of the process of becoming one in the first place. Resolute 17:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that many Wikipedia editors (possibly including myself - I am not self-aware enough to determine this) will never, ever, change their mind on an issue, ever. And the commonly-used approach around Wikipedia to get the result you desires is to repeat yourself on multiple fora over and over again until everyone gives up and you get their own way. Expect to see another complaint to AN, AN/I, RFC, or somewhere else again, because they will keep bringing this up until they get Kurt banned, and given a few admins are of the same mindset (Kurt Is Evil And Must Be Stopped From Opposing RFAs), no doubt someone will block him sooner or later and make things even worse, because someone won't resist unblocking him, we will have a wheel war, it will go to arbitration, and we will have even more drama. It happense over and over, and it all stems from the fact many Wikipedians are abnormally intense and narrowly focused upon repetitive patterns of action, with an inability to regard other people's feelings that may come across as insensitive, and are ruthlessly singleminded. These characteristics are great for categorising stubs or new page patrolling, but useless when it comes to dealing with real people. Neıl ☎ 15:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Close this

Let's close this so we can continue discussion at the RfC. See below. It is pointless to have two venues for discussing the same issue. - Chardish (talk) 17:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Let it stay open until it either auto-archives, or the discussion is resolved. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 18:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Color Me Badd vandalism

Resolved

Pplz plz bee c8rflulz uhf de vandalizms! Miranda 14:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Back in August, an anonymous IP altered the article to state that album sales were 32 units instead of the actual figure. It stayed tha t way until today when I reverted it. This fact is emabarassing enough (four months? Nobody noticed?) but the sad fact is that I only noticed it because of this article on the Cracked website which noted this "fact" on Wikipedia. Please try and keep an eye on this article as I'm sure due to the Cracked article it will be altered again for comedy. IrishGuy ^talk 20:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The first thing you must have thought when you saw that was "I wanna fix you up". Neıl ☎ 22:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

LOL, that was classic, Neil. Miranda 22:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Admin Abuse

Look, I believe I was the victim of admin abuse by the user name Jeske. We both had a dispute that went on throughout my userpage. Well, he stated getting fierce, so I did too and he blocked me. I know the sockpuppet was over the line, but i do believe he should've been punished too.V-Dash (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

So you got blocked for a 3RR violation, then started editing with a sock puppet meaning the block got extended and you think there's admin abuse? Is there any more to the story? Ryan Postlethwaite 22:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

After this and this? Who will be the lucky admin to whack you with a Kraken today? 68.193.198.41 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I should state that after looking at several threads involving you, this is looking like you're starting to harass Jeske - I suggest you drop this right away as the disruption you've made over the last couple of days cannot continue. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I was going to suggest he quit while he was ahead. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur. The quicker you chill the better. I suspect a one week block will prove to be the shortest you will see -- indef more likely. -JodyB _talk 22:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

V-Dash, you've now put yourself on the radar of countless admins, so you'd do well to stick with constructive editing from now on. (Cue Pete Seeger: "When will they ever learn...") Raymond Arritt (talk) 23:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Whilst sock puppetery and personal attacks are clearly not appropriate and the block was justified on those grounds, the admin's behaviour was far from civil, didn't show a great deal of sense and only perpetuated the problem by taking part in such in asinine arguement, not the kind of behaviour one would like to see from an admin. --Neon white (talk) 23:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, per Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Mantlefish, V-Dash is used by Mantlefish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to evade an indef block. I have blocked him likewise. Review welcome. Sandstein (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it's too late. I misread the puppet/master relationship in the above checkuser case. Unblocked. Sandstein (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Too bad, I was liking the end result anyways. — Save_Us_229 23:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Concur with admin opinions above. V-Dash needs to tone it down at least two notches or he's going to have a profoundly unsatisfactory Wikipedia experience, which nobody wants. Guy (Help!) 23:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Yup, looks like another case of admin abuse (see number 37). Antandrus (talk) 23:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• Quite the classic comment, KS9, you're an idiot. Grow up you cock sucking dickhead. related[25]?? Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Dash_Jr----Hu12 (talk) 23:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Dash Jr (talk · contribs) (aka PolluxFrost) is actually one of V-Dash's detractors. That being said, Dash Jr is V-Dash's GameFAQs forum handle (I found this out when I started the first thread here), and here on Wikipedia is an impersonation account run by PolluxFrost. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 04:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• These will be the last words I will say on the matter of V-Dash: V-Dash is extremely polemical to the point Diablo, Baal, and Mephisto want new lawyers. I have seen that he will use sockpuppets to support his agenda (Mantlefish asked if I were to be blocked along with him in the prior thread, and the last 3RR block laid on him (assuming the 3RR report on him hasn't finished) had to be extended to 10 days as he used a sock to evade the block and insert the same comment that caused the 3RR block on him in the first place); he selectively picks points to counter and disregards others; he uses ad hominem attacks, and (from the GFAQs forum I looked at) does nothing but pick specific topics he knows will be divisive to create strife. He makes severe accusations without an iota of evidence, and has an incivility matter above and beyond BlackStarRock's capabilities. I will say it again: Enough is enough. It's time for a ban. We don't need people like this here on Wikipedia. And in response to Neon White, I have disengaged from him; I'm staying away from him. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 04:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• I would also like to make a note about his persistent edit warring and incivility on his talkpage and Pokemon Diamond, which almost made WP:LAME. Marlith ^T/C 05:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• Charlie McCarthyism to avoid a block for 3RR is completely unacceptable and usually earns the violator an additional block if not an outright ban. Following it up here with a bogus gripe about the blocking admin only compounds the impression of intentional disruption. Raymond Arritt nails the issue above, and if this sort of behavior continues a ban needs to be discussed. FeloniousMonk (talk) 05:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Username complaint (moved from WP:UAA)

My name is Marius Mioc. I am from Timişoara, Romania. I am known as one of the participants at the Romanian Revolution of 1989 and as a writer of several books about the Romanian Revolution. I am a public person in Romania, I have an article about me at Romanian Wikipedia [26]. As result of my involvement in politics I have some enemies.

I saw that at English Wikipedia registered an user - User:Marius_Mioc, who claims being me! He is featuring a photo with me and is mentioning the books I wrote. However this person is not knowing well my biography, he is making some mistakes about it, he is claiming living abroad, while I still live in Romania. As I am a public person the impostor was able to find a photo with me, also is well-known the fact that I am from Timisoara. I suppose the impostor made a research in Timisoara's phonebook about me.

I deleted the userpage of this impostor, however I saw that he restored it. I am asking that an investigation should be done in order to clarify who is trying to make this identity theft. I want that userpage deleted, including the photo. I can be contacted at the e-mail [redacted]. This is a publicly known e-mail belonging to me, for example is mentioned at [27] (also is mentioned in some of my books). Thanks. Marius Mioc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.4.47 (talk) 23:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Moved here, redacted email address for privacy reasons. Bencherlite^Talk 00:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Bencherlite, is there any chance you can email me his email address and I'll sent him an email? I'll try and get some ID as confirmation. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Cheers, I've now emailed him. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't User:Marius_Mioc be contacted and temporary blocked, pending some ID proof? That's the procedure I remember of. -- lucasbfr ^talk 12:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Duk

User/administrator User:Duk just made this edit, which vandalized my user page to insert a reference to stuff I said months ago during a long-ended dispute. This doesn't seem to be conduct becoming of an administrator, is it? *Dan T.* (talk) 00:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, not really. Wow, er... any other opinions? J-ſtan^Talk_Contribs 00:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgraceful is the word I think everyones looking for, I've given him a warning that if he repeats any such action he will be blocked - we don't need attacks like that. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgraceful! Yes! That's the word I was looking for! J-ſtan^Talk_Contribs 00:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Administrators are trusted members of thew community, and as such they should not be disruptive towards another user. This conduct is unacceptable regardless of who does it, and he should be blocked if this persists. Maser ^(Talk!) 04:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree, we all get frustrated at times, but this was seemingly from months ago, totally unacceptable. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a note, Duk seems to have apologized for airing his grievances in that manner, but is apparently unapologetic for bringing it up altogether. J-ſtan^Talk_Contribs 17:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

User:TheSausageMonster

Their is another user that has nearly the same name as this guy. The suspected sockpuppet's name is The Sausage Monster in 007: Sausage. And The Sausage Monster is a big vandalizer. We need to get him banned before he vandalizes some more. --75.175.86.207 (talk) 00:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if I trust a user who is thinking Arby's. — Save_Us_229 00:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've never even been to Arby's. But I don't like the looks of Sausage's contribs; move vandalism. J-ſtan^Talk_Contribs 00:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

If no administrator is willing to unblock this individual, then consider him by all means and purposes banned from Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I at least found the username funny. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, that is a funny username. :) ...and for the record, I have been to Arby's. - NeutralHomer ^T:C 06:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The ultimate loser

Resolved

 – Page deleted Tiptoety (talk) 01:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Would some one please delete this page, there are multiple users using it for the purpose of only vandalism, and continually removing the speedy tag. I can hardly keep up with the reverting. I would normally just let it run its course and get deleted the correct way, but this one needs to be deleted now. Thanks! Tiptoety (talk) 01:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Deleted and salted, thanks for the notification. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Angelofdeath275

I removed several external links from the Tokyo Mew Mew and English adaptations of Tokyo Mew Mew as per Wikipedia's WP:EL guidelines and WP:COPYVIO policy.[28] Besides being unencyclopedic fan sites, they both have multiple blatant copyright violations and promoting bootlegging and illegal activity. The contribute nothing to the article, except to try to make a WP:POINT against the English adaptation of the show. The user Angelofdeath275 reverted both removals with the summary of "you did a very wrong move. those sites are what we used for refs. they MUCH. MORE. RELIABLE. than other fansites. I'm sure you did not boher to look at them throughly.."[29]. I reverted and he put them back again, then left a nasty message on my talk page. I explained why I removed them, again, and why I called his putting back such inappropriate links vandalism (spam links). In attempting to discuss the removals, he has grown increasingly incivil, claiming I blew him off (despite my having answered each of his messages, though I'd rather have ignored him). He full admitted that the sites are against Wikipedia policies, but in his final message he says "Your being one huge ass prick. I'm going ignore that part of the rule, partially by your attitude."[30]

Normally I'd go with a wikittiquette alert, but on his user talk page, he is blatantly antagonist and "warns" that he will be mean to other editors if the mood strikes him. This, to me, is not an appropriate attitude to have coming to Wikipedia. His response to the removals is also over the top, particularly when he himself has done the exact same thing on other articles![31][32] so he seems to know the rules and just doesn't want to play by them on this particular article. Maybe a WP:OWNership issue, or he just can't stay neutral for whatever reason. Collectonian (talk) 01:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

This guy went way too fair with this lady and he needs to think before he acts. He could have asked other editors, but he doesn't and harassed this lady. He needs to leave wikipedia for a while or be blocked for a couple of weeks to think about his actions. This guy did not want to reason with this user at all.--Stco23 (talk) 01:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

SHE is very angry with this user. SHE has never gotten so mad at an established for as long as she has been on Wikipedia, as this person also has an attitude.

SHE is in one crappy ass mood, due a vandal on three other articles, who will not even bother to talk, find a source for their biased section, as this has been going on since November 27th. SHE has not had anytime to add constructive stuff because she is busy keeping one sole vandal under control, with another person ever since. (break the 3RR). SHE is the sole person trying to make sure fans keep their stuff off of the Tokyo Mew Mew articles (there were orignally 3). SHE felt blown off my that user as she gave proof why the links should stay. Throughtful ones. That person has no clue how crappy many Tokyo Mew Mew fansites are (typical which character likes who, made up stuff), that SHE looked through many sites (fan and not fansites) and saw that those were the only two that had factual information (something the person probably would not care about). That person has no clue that finding info for Tokyo Mew Mew and Mew Mew Power is hard work, so had no clue why I reverted. That person must have went with the mentality that all fansites are bad, and did not bother to acknowlege that there are VERY VERY FEW fansites, that arent bad, so that annoyed SHE. SHE will probably log off after sooner or later, cause she is pissed off. THROUGH FIRE JUSTICE IS SERVED! 01:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Being pissed off is de rigeur for a teenager, it's not an excuse to inflict your teenage angst on other editors. Being uncivil and bratty is not the correct response for being told a spam link is not appropriate for an article. The correct response should have been to read WP:EL then left a message saying that you were wrong and that you apologise for being uncivil. It's obvious from your talk page that you take great pride in behaving like a "bitch" (your words not mine), I'd also recommend that you will be doing yourself a big favour by removing that statement/warning as it will taint any occasion when you are in the right. --WebHamster 03:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Well SHE should seriously consider not posting uncivil almost trollish comments on a board that is surveyed by several administrators or chances are SHE will end up blocked for uncivility. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You could have talked with other editors, but you didn't. You need to be blocked for a while, but if you keep it up, you will be blocked for life.--Stco23 (talk) 02:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, as if these comments are wholly constructive and civil. The links clearly violate external links policy because they are merely spam links, and copyright violations policy because they link to sites that merely distribute illegal copies of videos. Nothing more, nothing less. Looking at the contribs (Angelofdeath275 (talk · contribs)), I don't see anything that is too alarming, but just take the regular course of action with the templates and if it escalates further, just file it here. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 03:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

If you are overwhelmed trying to keep crap and vandalism out of an article, there is no shortage of places you can go to ask for help. There is however no excuse for such incivility and WP:IAR does not overrule the copyright policy. Mr.Z-man 03:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

He did it again. He put back the links, but his edit got reverted. I think he needs to be blocked for good measure.--Stco23 (talk) 04:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

We looking at 1, maybe 2 weeks, or an indef? Indef might be a bit severe, but do what you need to do. J-ſtan^Talk_Contribs 04:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I would say maybe 72 hours-one week seeing that while the account has engaged in uncivil behaviour and may have disrupted the mainspace to fit her taste this would be the first block on this account and there are some constructive edits in there as well. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

He did it earlier, I thought he did it just a couple of minutes ago, but I was wrong. Do you think I should have left that report of him on the vandalism page.--Stco23 (talk) 04:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Who do you mean by "he"? I get the impression from your earlier edits that you maybe confusing who is male and who is female. Both Collectonian and angelofdeath275 are female. --WebHamster 04:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I found this ironic. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 05:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

angelofdeath275 could use some warnings on 3 counts. I see a potential for a username block due to potentially rude/inflammatory intimidative "angel of death" name. Also, the user's userpage clearly broadcasts an intent of incivility, and last but not least, they have followed up on their threat by actually being incivil when challenged. IMO, this user should get an indefinite username block and only be allowed to create a new account on the condition that they drop the manipulative posturing. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 05:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

At any rate, Buspar (talk · contribs) seems to be inserting in some questionable links. I gave him a notice on his talk page, and hopefully that will resolve the issue. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 05:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think a username block would be appropiate, it certainly isn't "welcoming" but it doesn't really goes to the extent where a username block would stand. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It's the username combined with the threats on the user page and user talk page that puts me in the opinion. Agreed, the username by itself is only a bit rude, but the user's published intent clinches it. I'm not doing it without consensus here though, because it isn't cut and dried. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 05:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Ether way he or she, This person needs to respect people when angry. I don't mind the person's user name, but most of the stuff on this person's user and talk page needs to change. This person is good on video games, but not on respect.--Stco23 (talk) 05:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright. I'll add a firm warning to remove the bluster, but won't block for now. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 05:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Just passing by, took at look at the user contributions out of curiosity and noticed this; User:Angelofdeath275/Policies and Guidelines#I will blow off. Sounds like someone is planning to not play nice with others in the sandbox. Tarc (talk) 15:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy

Could probably use some neutral observers here. Adam Cuerden ^talk 08:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom bot?

Just to make people aware, ST47 is apparently running a bot to monitor the ArbCom elections, and in some cases votes are being removed as a result. Is it appropriate to have a bot perform such a function? I have restored EconomicsGuy's votes, as his renaming of his account does not remove his contributions from the old account. But I have not checked any other of the bot contributions. The bot owner is aware of the situation, as seen from EconomicsGuy's message to him. Thanks, Jeffpw (talk) 08:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I support the use of a bot to carry out checks, but would ask that all "lack of suffrage" votes flagged up by the bot are checked manually and indented by hand. The bot could also tally how many separate individuals have voted in these elections, and how many votes were struck due to suffrage or other reasons. Carcharoth (talk) 09:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The concept is good, but it should in no way impact on the vote pages themselves. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 09:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Erk, he's running the bot on his main account, so a block if it continues to throw up false positives is not possible. Neıl ☎ 10:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is a block not possible? To detect false postives, require the bot to notify all voters whose votes are flagged up. But the actual indentation must be carried out manually. Carcharoth (talk) 10:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Because it would require blocking his main account (User:ST47). Okay, it's obviously technically possible, but I don't think it would be appropriate. We should never be too hasty to block, as you of course know ;) 10:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

From the sound of ST47's response, the "bot" is doing nothing more than a machine check of all votes, so presumably ST47 is indenting the votes himself (possibly with script support). Someguy1221 (talk) 11:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but he seems to be blindly relying on the machine to tell him if the Supports or Opposes are allowed, and not double checking the bot's flag. I don't think WP:AGF extends to a cyberbot, particularly in an election. I would hope all !votes are double checked, and inappropriately indented votes will be reverted by ST47 ASAP. It's not fair to the candidates or those voting to have votes inappropriately discounted. Jeffpw (talk) 11:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

CALM DOWN, I'm not quite enough of an idiot to run this fully automatically. The bot isn't making any decisions. I plug in the user who appears to be bad, and it does my bidding. --uǝʌǝsʎʇɹnoɟʇs(st47) 11:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Clarification WRT someguy: There are two bots. One makes a list of suspect accounts, like I posted here. The other takes a single user's name and removes it from anywhere he voted. I still need to check that the user isn't, say, using a redirected userpage (User:f-m-t, User:PxMa, User:PMC) or has an alternate account (User:Save Us 229). --uǝʌǝsʎʇɹnoɟʇs(st47) 11:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

"Calm down" is not exactly the reply I wanted to hear. The removal of EconomicGuy's posts seems to be a contributing factor in his decision to pull back and re-evaluate his participation here, judging from his last talk page message. Discussion with him might have avoided this. I would hope you dropped a note on the other voter's pages, telling them of your indenting of their votes. Jeffpw (talk) 12:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been using Milestone to check edit counts for voters, and it didn't catch that the EconomicsGuy account was linked to a previous account which would have had suffrage, either. Usually, a vote is indented and followed with a note to the talk page - which would result in a "hey, I had an old account, no problem" and the votes would be restored, as you have already done. If other accounts are in a similar circumstance, then they can also be restored if there was an error. ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 13:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll add that there would have been no outward indication that there was a previous account in EconomicsGuy's case, which would make sense given the circumstance. Until it was pointed out, there would have been no way to know - which is as it should be. ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 13:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I realize this but it sort of goes along with assuming good faith that voters are notified. This particular ArbCom election matters greatly (and more so than previous ones) for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who have followed what has been going on for the past few months so greater care should be taken to avoid false positives. I'm satisfied with the outcome here but solely thanks to Jeff's efforts. Given that this is the ArbCom election and not merely an AfD or something simular that only a handful of people care about I think that the practice of notifying users the same way as is being done when removing invalid (or presumed invalid) votes during board elections would be a basic requirement. EconomicsGuy (talk) 13:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Image:199245.jpg

Resolved

Please can an admin delete this image it has had a disputed tag on for ovr seven days now. Procedure for deletion met please delete acordingly.--Lucy-marie (talk) 11:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. Neıl ☎ 11:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Missed the chance to stop #11. Ready to block other obvious socks yet?

I brought this up about a week and a half ago. No action was taken then and #11 was able to vandalize a few more times (ex. [33], [34]) before finally being blocked. His unblock request makes it clear that he isn't planning on stopping. Can we block 13 and 14 yet? Am I reporting this to the wrong place? It doesn't seem simple enough for AIV, and it seems far too obvious for SSP. I figured this would be done a week ago. Is there a more appropriate place that I should have brought it up? (or should I just ignore the overall picture and check up on each sock's individual contributions periodically and report them one at a time to AIV once they've vandalized enough to be considered disruptive...) --Onorem♠Dil 12:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked 13 and 14. Is there any way to just block any account (or stop it being created) if it starts with "Paradocks"? Neıl ☎ 13:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It appears these were sleeper accounts, as shown from 14's creation log: 18:46, May 21, 2007 Paradocks14 (Talk | contribs) New user account. 15, 16, 17+ are not created, so if account creation was disabled, it should take care of the issues. Ariel♥Gold 13:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. --Onorem♠Dil 13:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

RfC - for your information

An RfC has been started which relates to two recent threads (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Clear cut personal attack by User:Kmweber & Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#WP:Rfa) on this noticeboard, it can be found here - Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kmweber 2. DuncanHill (talk) 12:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

My closure and redirection to WT:RFA of one of those threads was undone, pointing out a possible conflict of interest. Based on this, I'm now closing it again on the basis that discussion should continue at the new RFC.. Carcharoth (talk) 13:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyone else starting to get tired of beating this horse? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

My advice is to let the second RfC run. I suspect the results might surprise some people. Carcharoth (talk) 13:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I have no intention to try to stop it. Just noting that it seems awfully silly. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Your closure of the thread was highly unacceptable. It's not ok to use the discussion top/bottom templates to shut down a discussion that is active and ongoing, certainly never ok to do it with one that you have participated and have strong feelings about. I've reopened the thread, which is indeed appropriate for this page because it involves the possibility of a topic ban. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 15:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I think we should direct comments to the RFC. Once that is over, it should clarify whether further discussion is needed here. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I really don't see the point in keeping the above threads open either if an RFC has been opened. Closing the thread here and moving to the RFC for furthur discussion is just another step in moving forward in dispute resolution. — Save_Us_229 16:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the page protection tags, anyway. That's just plain silly for a non-protected page, not to mention misleading to other editors. Oops. Thanks, Carcharoth! Jeffpw (talk) 16:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, do you mean this? I think you are in the wrong thread... :-) Carcharoth (talk) 16:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

SwatJester, I was not closing the thread. I was attempting to redirect discussion away from ANI (there are other matters that need attention here, you know) and towards the second RfC. That is not stifling debate. Do we have to have a pre-discussion before closing the discussion, and then another discussion to decide where to hold the next discussion, and then another discussion to sort out the right order in which to do things? There is a time for ANI and a time for RFC. A time for action and a time for discussion. I won't be restoring the tags, but I hope that the discussion does not fragment over three or four different places. That won't help anyone. Two other people have agreed with me that discussion should continue elsewhere. Could someone add a "see also" note at the top of the other threads, directing people to the RfC? That way the discussion here can keep going as SwatJester wants, but people are at least aware of the other discussion. Carcharoth (talk) 16:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I have added "see also" at the top of the two threads, to enable editors to keep abreast of the discussion. DuncanHill (talk) 17:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Considering the RFC is brand new, I'm opposed to any closing/redirecting/archiving/whatever you want to call it, until the RFC has had some reasonable time to develop and attract users of all viewpoints. Many people, such as myself, check AN/I regularly but not RFC. This way we get a broader opinion. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 18:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

There were at least 4 hours between the initial closing of the second ANI thread and the opening of the RfC, discussion had halted when Carcharoth initially closed it prior to someone (I'm not looking it up cause it doesn't matter) reopened it. There really wasn't much point in reopening that discussion especially since the RfC is probably the best place to be discussing this non-incident (imho) at this juncture since its centralized and won't have confusing discussions spread all over the encyclopedia. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 18:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Troll check

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this guy is a troll who should be blocked for waisting our time? Rklawton (talk) 14:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I would advise any blocks to be based on something more substantive than "wasting our time". And maybe try actually communicating with them (to provide guidance and warning) on their talk page? Carcharoth (talk) 14:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Or craft up a custom tin-foil hat barnstar for uncovering the TRUTH^TM... I wouldn't necessarily block, but communicating or ignoring are the best options.--Isotope23 ^talk 14:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Just you. I can't find any incivil comments or edits that would even raise a red flag. It seems like the editor is merely expressing his opinion, much like you, and you disagree with it. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 14:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• Hopefully if we ignore him he'll get back into his black helicopter and fly away, but experience indicates that True Believers are rarely so accommodating. Guy (Help!) 15:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Continued problems with editor - disruptive editing

An editor who has nominated an article (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms) for deletion has recently interfered with efforts to improve the article by repeatedly reinserting an inappropriate quote and finally by attempting to block further edits and improvements to the article.

The history is as follows:

• AfD nominator threatens repeat reversions:[35]
• warning on user's talk page:[36]
• counselling of alternatives to reversion:[37]

11 Dec 11:03 - all citations not explicitly using the word "apostasy" removed from "Apostasy" row with edit message "replacing synthesis with 2 sources explicitly defining apostasy from the Jewish perspective; srcs not containing the word apostasy removed"[38] This was part of a general effort to improve the quality of citations and remove WP:OR and WP:SYNTH in the A-D portion of the glossary.

3 reinsertations of citations

• 11 December 13:54 - 1st reinsertion
• 11 December 14:12 wholesale reversion (after removal by User:egfrank - a message was placed on the AfD nominating editor's talk page explaining reason for removal and inviting her to find another source that would be more appropriate)
• 11 December 14:38 wholesale reversion (after removal by User:Teclontz)

Attempt to block future editing

• 11 December 15:16 - added edit protection tags

Thanks in advance, Egfrank (talk) 16:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The user has been notified of this ANI on her talk page. Egfrank (talk) 16:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the page protection tags, anyway. That's just plain silly for a non-protected page, not to mention misleading to other editors. Jeffpw (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Egfrank posted the following on Teclontz's talk page:

I just wanted to let you know that I'm also finding some of the more polemical additions unsettling - we can't very well ask for respect from other religions if we are not willing to give it back. There are ways to make points about religious boundaries that both truthful and respectful. And there are ways to make Jewish feelings about those who convert out known, also without insulting the integrity of their most likely difficult decisions. Egfrank (talk) 11:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This is an example of the actual POV editing which is going on on this page. Because Egfrank felt that a highly respected and abundantly sourced citation was "polemical" and detrimental to interfaith dialog, he saw fit to remove a highly pertinent citation.

Jeffpw, I apologize for putting the protection tags up. I misunderstood the protection policy, and was trying to prevent further damage. I've now put the request for protection in according to the page you linked for me. Thanks for that. -LisaLiel (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• I didn't get a chance to look through the edit history yet, but I changed "votes" to "opinions" as AFD is not a vote; it is an attempt to achieve consensus through discussion.--Isotope23 ^talk 17:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to give a little background, Lisa appears to be resolving edit disputes by nominating the page for AfD and THEN making changes and excessive edit reverts as part of the justification for eliminating the page. After a case of vandalism this morning she appeared to lock in her own vandalism with a protection tag and then reported other editors for vandalism on the AfD page! That's like playing on the same "team" in a ball game you betted against, and then reporting fouls to the umpire after kicking someone. The concerns of other editors generally revolve around Lisa's use of language that only makes sense to Jews, and not wording it in such a way that everyone understands what is being said (a major example is using the term Christian when you mean Gentile). That being said, I believe Egfrank ALSO suggested that if you are able to document the exact same information in a more neutrally acceptable way, even better. In short, I've tried to help Lisa be understood, and Egfrank has tried to help her be acceptable. Neither of us have attempted, or wish to attempt a detraction from her religious point of view -- especially since we share it! I apologize for us not being able to handle the vandalism internally, but none of the other editors on the page have the experience in edit warring that Lisa appears to have -- and we don't have the desire for it, either.Tim (talk) 17:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I closed the AFD. There was no consensus there, though I do note that the article needs serious work. I also note that while I think the participants there were well meaning, much of the refactoring/etc made that AFD a complete and utter mess. I nearly relisted it for a fresh AFD. Personally though I don't see the harm in allowing a period of time for contributors to clean up the article issues before a decision is made on whether or not this will ever be a useful encyclopedia article. Beyond that, I simply urge the contributors there to remain as civil as possible, use the article talkpage, and follow dispute resolution if you can't agree.--Isotope23 ^talk 17:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Psychopathy article and User:Mattisse

User:Mattisse is on a rampage on the Psychopathy article. At first it looked as though he might have SOME kind of knowledge and point but as he goes on I am coming to realise that he doesn't actually have a clue and is not going to let that discourage him from completely disrupting the entire article. I see he has a recent block history for similar. HELP! --Zeraeph (talk) 18:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Mattisse again! Well, i personally believe that you can still discuss that at the article's talk page. As i see, you are both handling a productive and civil discussion and believe there's nothing which can be done here for the moment. You can still try Wikipedia:Third opinion or Request comment on articles. I'll be keeping an eye. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

No sourced information

User:GuTTy-YC has been adding non-sourced information from Panda (band). He has been adding subjective information about "plagiarism". The only source he has contribute is a Mexican fans club of My Chemical Romance, that's a blog where all the fans can edit, so that's not a trust source. He has been blocked previously in Wikipedia in Spanish twice [39], for the same reason and for insults another user. I would like someone could help in this case. I have noticed him, but he don't want to pay attention. --Coraje (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)