Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion

Bender235 and reference style changes

Brief summary User:Bender235 was advised in two ANI threads [1] [2] to stop making minor stylistic changes to references, but refuses to desist. Now he is spamming article talk pages about the same stylistic changes (contribs). I have notified the user about this thread on his talk page.

Longer description A recent ANI thread about User:Bender235 closed with this summary (link) :

It is clear that multiple editors have objected to the mass-conversion, either by reverting, or by asking Bender235 to stop. Bender235 is reminded that, even though he may not have broken a specific rule, he did cause a degree of controversy, and is therfor advised stop making changes to {{reflist}} in articles. — Edokter • Talk • 22:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

In a slightly earlier ANI thread, Bender235 was advised [3]

... For now, please stop making such changes in bulk, as there's a fair chance the Proposal will make it moot. Rd232 talk 10:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Bender235 has interpreted this to mean that he can still make the edits if he spams all the talk pages of the articles (talk page edits; search for "reference") He has not stopped making the edits in question, despite the clear language of the ANI threads.

Starting the same conversation on dozens of articles is completely counterproductive. Moreover, Bender235 is aware that his edits go against this Arbcom finding:

"Editors who collectively or individually make large numbers of similar edits, and who are apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed, are expected to attempt to resolve the dispute through discussion. It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change. This applies to many editors making a few edits each, as well as a few editors making many edits." [4]

At this point, it is starting to look like a firm editing restriction, backed up by possible blocks, will be necessary. The pattern of IDIDNTHEARTHAT is very clear. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

• I think at this point we need to make it an explicit editing restriction: Bender is prohibited from making changes to the style of existing references in any articles. For most editors this would be draconian, but Bender235 has shown the lack of ability to make proper judgements regarding this. As a result, he should be forbidden from making any such changes. If he cannot be trusted to make good choices, then we should remove the option. --Jayron32 22:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
• Erm, there is a conflation of issues here: the previous ANI thread was about changing references/ to {{reflist}}. That will soon be moot, since the proposal to change the CSS at Wikipedia:VPR#styling_.3Creferences_.2F.3E_like_Reflist appears likely to be closed (at some point) as consensus for, and then that's moot. That still leaves the column formatting issue, which is also under discussion at VPR, less conclusively. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with posting such column-formatting style suggestions on talk pages, thought it would be preferable to get a style guideline that simply approved it so it could just be done. At any rate, if we want to agree that editors shouldn't make such proposals on lots of talk pages, fine, but for now I don't see he's doing anything wrong with that. Rd232 ^talk 22:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Both ANI threads reflect the same underlying problematic behavior, which is making mass stylistic changes to articles. The fact that bender235 makes more than one type of stylistic change only reinforces the pattern. The problem with making the same suggestion on numerous talk pages is that it makes discussion very difficult, by forcing editors to reply over and over to the same question. This is the point of the Arbcom finding I quoted. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

"...by forcing editors to reply over and over to the same question"

That is wrong. For example, I asked whether I should implement {{Reflist|colwidth=45em}} here. Now if someone would've replied: "no, please don't do that, because on WP:MADONNA we've always used {{Reflist|2}} and would like to continue to do that", I wouldn't have changed anything on this article or any related. But as a matter of fact, I was asked to do the exact opposite. —bender235 (talk) 22:43, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't get it. I was adviced not to change the reference list style w/out testing the local consensus. So I did test the local consensus, and asked if anyone objected the change. In most cases, nobody object, and in some cases people even encouraged me to do the change.
I really don't know what you want me to do. If I act per WP:BRD, it's wrong because I allegedly "impose" my prefered style on articles ignoring the local consensus. Now if I turn BRD around and start the discussion first, I'm "spamming the talk pages". What the hell I'm supposed to do? —bender235 (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

It's completely clear from the quotes above what you are supposed to do: stop making these stylistic changes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

So in your opinion, no one should be allowed to ever make these kind of changes to articles, even when it has been discussed on talk pages a priori? Then your opinion is wrong. —bender235 (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I did not say "no one", "ever". Jayron32 has explained, above, the problem that this thread is about: "Bender235 has shown the lack of ability to make proper judgements regarding this". You are aware that there is no consensus for your changes; that the MOS explicitly discourages them; and two consecutive ANI threads asked you to stop. Continuing to make the same edits under those circumstances is patently inappropriate, and escalating them by also spamming talk pages verges on violating WP:POINT. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

So this "rule" is only supposed to apply to me? Because of your Wikihounding that led to two ANI, one of which I actually posted?

"You are aware that there is no consensus for your changes"

No, I am not. That was why I was asking on the talk pages in the first place. To find out what is consensus. And people replied, and said: "yes, colwidth looks nice, please change". —bender235 (talk) 22:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This is the "I didn't hear that" aspect again. How many people need to tell you there isn't consensus for the changes? Two ANI threads asking you to stop is more than enough. It appears you're just filibustering at this point. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:53, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

It seems to memore like you've made up your mind about this and aren't sufficiently assuming good faith or listening to Bender trying to figure out how best to handle this. Rd232 ^talk 23:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, it seems like you still haven't gotten the point. The notion that "there is no consensus" may be correct globally. However, I was specificly asking on each article, whether local consensus was pro or con. So your assertion that I was ignoring consensus is just nonsense. —bender235 (talk) 23:06, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Assume for the sake of argument that I go to every talk page you leave a note on, and point out that I disagree. What then? You know that various editors disagree with the changes, not just me. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, since you told me numerous times here and here that I have no right to decide on the reference style of articles I haven't contributed to before, that "rule" would apply to you here as well. Which means your objection does not count, unless you have contributed to the specific article.

Obviously that "rule" conflicts with everything from WP:OWN to WP:BOLD, but you made it up, and you repeatedly uttered the fact that I have breached that "rule". —bender235 (talk) 01:48, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The fact that anyone can object is a key reason why it's silly to make style changes as you have been. When there are disagreements, our firm rule is to keep the established style, and there is no limitation on who can object. In practice people don't object if an article is changed by its frequent editors in the course of heavy editing, but they do object to widespread changes by editors who have never edited the articles before. This is well known to people who follow the MOS or WP:CITE. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Have you ever read WP:DRNC? I guess not. —bender235 (talk) 01:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that essay about content edits. But random stylistic changes (e.g. ENGVER, reference formatting) are not the same – these should be avoided, and reverted when they are made. We have a longstanding consensus, in the MOS and in arbitration cases, that editors should not change between optional styles in articles, and that making such changes is, in general, disruptive rather than productive. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

You agree with the essay on content edits? WP:DRNC doesn't even apply to those edits, because how can there be an a priori consensus about a content change or addition? That would be absurd. —bender235 (talk) 02:11, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

If there is a prior posting on the talk page, with some reasonable time allowed for possible responses and consensus respected, I really don't see the problem. The whole tenor of the previous discussions was not forcing style changes, by fait accompli editing, and if Bender has stopped doing that (I haven't checked), then there's no real problem, is there? It might reasonably be decided that we should change policy (or possibly interpret existing policy) to declare that proposing this on lots of talk pages should be prohibited, but it seems a perfectly good faith action, and mentioning WP:POINT in this context is really not appropriate. Now if someone wants to point to a policy basis for disallowing this, or to propose creating one (and request Bender to stop pending the outcome of that discussion), fine, otherwise, this thread doesn't really seem to have anywhere to go. Rd232 ^talk 23:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that it's silly to require people to go around dozens of talk pages making the same comment: "I object, and therefore per WP:MOS the policy is that we keep the established style". This is what the arbcom case is getting at: it's not appropriate to go around making so many edits in a way that exhausts the ability of those you know disagree with the edits. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually I only see one solution for this dispute: WP:CITE has to have a clear recommendation on whether columns are allowed, or disallowed. Because if there's a recommendation to have them, everyone should be allowed to implement them. And if there's no recommendation, no one should be allowed to, and the feature as a whole might be deleted. Which brings us to Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Final proposal. —bender235 (talk) 23:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how hard this is to understand. Stop making any changes to reflist formats until the VPPR proposal concludes with consensus in your favor. It's not rocket science. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

That's not how I understood it. I thought I was urged to not make "mass changes" w/out finding out the local consensus. So I tried to find out the local consensus. But okay, I'll stop doing it until WP:VPR has come to a conclusion, on way or the other. —bender235 (talk) 23:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

"Columns are allowed" or even "Columns are recommended" is not the same as "Columns are required". Something that is allowed, but not required, is called "optional". Per CBM, MOS, wiki practice, and numerous arb precedents are that if something optional is done a particular way in some article, leave it alone unless there is consensus to change it. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 04:22, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• I think the main point that needs to be explained to Bender235 is that, through the discussion that was undertaken at Village Pump:Proposals, the coding for both types of referencing is going to be changed so that they are identical. Therefore, no changes between the two styles should ever be made again anywhere on Wikipedia unless Reflist is needed to add specific dimensions (which is a fairly rare occurrence). Therefore, Bender needs to stop changing these referencing styles permanently, since they will be the same exact thing. Silverseren^C 04:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
  • (semi-trolling) But think of his edit counter! How dare one make a single change to CSS that denies a dedicated editor the unique opportunity to make tens of thousands if not millions of edits?! Tijfo098 (talk) 08:04, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

JFYI: This was never about replacing <references /> with {{Reflist}}, therefore it is not affected by this proposal.

All I did was inquiring the local consensus on several talk pages, which CBM called "spamming". —bender235 (talk) 12:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Back on the 14th, Bender asked me what other gnomic work he can do if he can't do this.[5] I didn't answer, as I was not sure how to answer. Anyone here have suggestions? To me, the most obvious thing would be to look for spelling and grammar mistakes in articles, which affect wikipedia's credibility to the reading public, far more than any technical stuff about column widths. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Other suggestions could include WP:WIKIFY, which involves adding wikilinks and section headers, CAT:UNCAT, which besides being a bit of an oxymoron, is involved in categorizing articles, indeed, anything at {{Active Wiki Fixup Projects}} could use some help. --Jayron32 16:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:AFC, WP:NPP, WP:CVU, he could write his own articles...he could improve existing articles...he could look through images for false claims of ownership or fair use...really, there's so much more than moving references around (and for that matter, he could format internal citations to add paramaters missing, like author and page title). I hear there are still several thousand WP:BLP's that need references... Seriously Bender, use the left mouse button instead of your keyboard for a while and click around, you'll find something. I think you're genuinely trying to help here, you're just doing something that isn't particularly helpful. Look around, you'll find all sorts of gnomish work that needs to be done. N419BH 21:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I did all that and more over the past 6½ years. Besides creating and expanding articles from time to time, I've been fixing typos, adding/fixing infoboxes, fixing broken citations, implementing citation templates, and restructuring appendices. And as a minor part of it, in about 1% of the articles I edited, I replaced {{Reflist|2}} with {{Reflist|colwidth=30em}} where I considered it useful. And just because someone didn't like {{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}, he reverted it everywhere saying there was "no consensus" to use it. And after all, this is the third ANI regarding this dispute.

Actually I didn't ask Baseball Bugs what to do, but how to do it. Because if Wikipedia rules where actually like User:CBM claims, which was that I have no rights to modify the style of an article I haven't contributed significant content to, I couldn't do anything of the things mentioned above (except for typofixing, maybe). Because restructuring the appendix inevitably changes the style. Fixing an infobox inevitably changes the style. Implementing citation templates inevitably changes the style. If Wikipedia rules were actually prohibiting me from doing these kind of edits, then there is nothing left. —bender235 (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

What you asked me was:

"So, what gnomic work can I do from now on w/out risking a block? Obviously ref style changes are a no-no, and so are citation cleanups. How can I do those minor improvement from now on?"

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:21, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, "how can I do those" if I'm supposed to (a) establish a status of "major contributor" (to a specific article) before making minor edits, and (b) discuss every minor edit on the article's talk page before actually implementing it. I always thought that (a) no one, no matter how much he contributed, owns an article or has the final say, and (b) consensus is established by bold moves. Like WP:CONSENSUS puts it: "In most cases, the first thing to try is an edit to the article, and sometimes making such an edit will resolve a dispute. Use clear edit summaries that explain the purpose of the edit; If the edit is reverted, try making a compromise edit that addresses the other editors' concerns." But now, for some reason, this policy has been turned up-side-down. —bender235 (talk) 01:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Policy is different for style changes, that's all. So for example, yes, if a page has an established reference style that's reasonable, you shouldn't change it to citation templates. In effect, if you want to look at it that way, there is a partial exception to WP:OWN in that the first person to establish a citation style (or a variation of English, come to that) gets to WP:OWN that aspect of the article, barring a strong reason to change those style aspects. And also, "consensus is established by bold moves"? No, consensus is established in various ways; for some things, boldness is not appropriate. Rd232 ^talk 07:52, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

See, there's the problem. Changing from "colour" to "color" might be merely a style change, but implementing a citation template is more, because it also produces meta tags and a "Z3988" context object in HTML. Likewise, implementing {{Reflist|colwidth=30em}} is more, because it makes Wikipedia articles accessible platform independent. —bender235 (talk) 12:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

It sounds like the question you're really asking is, "What can I do on Wikipedia without ever risking a warning/block?" And the answer is "nothing." Because there's always opportunity for misunderstandings, misinterpretations and outright mistakes. The key is to listen when multiple folks say "You're doing it wrong," and try to establish a consensus before moving forward. WP:BOLD is fine, but remember that it's Bold-Revert-Discuss. People have been upset because your technique has been "Bold-Revert-'Keep Making The Same Changes on Multiple Articles Anyway". Just keep gnoming, but be willing to step back a bit when your changes are questioned. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I always acted on WP:BRD. And in some cases, there were discussions after my edit was reverted. But in most cases, nobody reverted, and nobody disagreed with my edit. —bender235 (talk) 01:19, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Except for, y'know, the majority of people in the ANI threads about you. That counts too. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 13:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, some people here disagree, because they misinterpret WP:CITE, so that allegedly consensus has to be establised first before something can be change from one way to another. But (1) "Consensus is not the same as unanimity", and (2) "If the only thing you have to say about a contribution to the encyclopedia is that it lacks consensus, it's best not to revert it." —bender235 (talk) 20:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

...aaaand right back to the Wikilawyering. You have a severe case of "I didn't hear that" going on. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Glenn Beck Article

I believe that the Glenn Beck article page is the subject of editbullying and a place where many well meaning editors are driven off by partisans on both sides. There is a small group of regular editors there, who essentially police the page, and remove reasonable content. Given the controversial and public nature of the subject, I suggest more rigid third party mediation on that page. As it is now, it is essentially impossible to contribute anything meaningful. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

What to do about an editor that tags images for deletion ...

What to do about an editor that tags images for deletion and refuses to notify the uploader, even after several requests to do so. He finds older images I uploaded that don't have the newest template, and instead of adding a template himself, or asking me to do so, he tags them for deletion and I notice them when I see the red link in the article or my watchlist. I end up just reuploding the fair-use image and adding the newest template. In a fraction of the time to go through this, he could have added the newer template, or notified me to add it or suplement the existing rationale. Instead we end up with a ritual that wastes everyone's time. Previously I had almost every image I loaded nominated for deletion by a user that I had opposed in an AFD debate. They spend hours adding a deletion tag to almost every image I added, including images of my own face on my userpage. Image deletion shouldn't be used as a punative measure or retaliation. Any comments? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

What individual user are you talking about? [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 03:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• It is User:Jsayre64.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs)

Maybe you could save everyone the time and go through your CCI yourself and make sure that the licenses are correct rather than blaming it on the person trying to clean up the mess. Quantpole (talk) 13:11, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

That would be lovely! Please do, Richard. You know that fair use requirements are a bit more extensive than what you've been accustomed to putting on images, and tagging for deletion is the way these are handled. I had asked just a few weeks ago at WT:NFC about creating a template to request improvement to rationale precisely because of your CCI, but I was told that a template of that sort was recently deleted (see Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2010_November_15#Template:Short-Rationale). As per that conversation, "It is the case that the person who places a non-free image should be the one to ensure that the fair use rationale is adequate, and if a rationale does not pass muster, the non-free content needs to be corrected soon or go." The "disputed fair use" deletion tag allows seven days for this correction to take place. As to notifications, as you know, I requested that your talk page not be spammed with notices in courtesy to you. I asked you previously to let me know if you would prefer individual notices, but I did not hear back from you. If you would like individual notices, I can certainly log that request at the CCI page, so that those who are taking the time to help make sure that your remaining images are compliant with policies will know that you would appreciate them after all. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:03, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I didn't create the mess, Treasury Tag did by nominating what appears to be almost every image I loaded, over 400 were tagged before he gave up, including the images of my own face on my userpage, so please don't blame the victim. Remember the standard FUR template wasn't born with Wikipedia, it came along later, much later than most of the images I uploaded. Out of what is by my count over 400 images nominated for deletion I now count 8 redlinks, mostly for New York Times articles that were listed at "pre-1965 public domain without renewal" that had their copyright reapplied for, and the official notice was found. And even they could have been switched to Fairuse. There are a few that I can't figure out what they were because they were deleted before I could respond. I am still not sure why Treasury Tag's actions weren't labeled as harassment. I think I could challenge an equal number from anyone's uploads and get the same percentage deleted. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

We are all responsible for making sure that our content meets requirements. You are not a victim in this matter, regardless of what may or may not have happened with User:TreasuryTag. There were legitimate concerns with copyright and with fair use practices regarding your images, and a good many people have dedicated and are dedicating time to helping make sure that the many valid and usable images you have uploaded are properly identified and defined, while images that may not meet our policies are addressed. This is tedious but necessary work, and your proactive assistance with it would certainly be worthwhile. (By the way, I've dropped a note to User:TreasuryTag, as he is now a subject of this discussion.) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't quite know why I've been name-dropped in this discussion other than Richard attempting to claim that since his poor copyright labelling was once reviewed and he didn't like it, he should henceforth gain complete immunity in this regard. Nonsense. ╟─TreasuryTag►co-prince─╢ 14:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I ran into this same Issue a while back and it cycles back around from time to time thats why I stopped uplodading images. We have templates that when used arent any good, in most cases the image gets deleted before I have a chance to find the information, when I argue the point knowone seems to care other than CCI seems to be allowed to do pretty much as they want with only minimal concensus in the name of CCI. the following are suggestion I have for fixing this:

1. ) The uploader must be notified of the deletion, even if that is a group request or a link to the deletion discussion page. This is already the policy, if its not being followed then your breaking policy
2. ) The uploader must be given adequate time with the possibility of extension if needed to get the source information, with the exception of an extension this is already policy, I believe the rule is 7 days
3. ) If the templates people are using aren't good enough then we need to get rid of them and make new ones.
4. ) We need to document better what is needed. If the same mistakes are repeated from one uploader to the next then the problem lies as much with the policy written as with the uploader who doesn't know or understand it.

If we do these 4 things it will not only stop wasting peoples time (the uploader and the reviewer) we will make the image repository in WP a much better and cleaner place. --Kumioko (talk) 18:04, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

IRT Moongirls comments I would also say that we are all volunteers and knowone likes thier time wasted whether because thier edits get reverted or because their images get deleted. Running bots like VMbot a while back and deleting images without notifying the user are just bad practice and lazy no matter what the justification. CCI has an important role to play however they need to follow the rules like the rest of us. The attitude of CCI trumps all and we can do what we want needs to stop. You are not only causing unneeded problems with articles and drama with editors, more importantly, you are giving the CCI process a bad reputation and it is casting the whole CCI project and processes in a negative light, thereby turning off users who might take the time to help. --Kumioko (talk) 18:12, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I remember you. Since you've not been the subject of a CCI, I was confused as to to who was deleting your images before you had the chance to find the information "in the name of CCI". I gather you're not talking about images or you at all, but rather about your request to change copyright violation policy at Village Pump. This is not the place to change policy. If you would like to propose further changes to our policies related to copyright, you may wish to open a new discussion at Village Pump.

As to the specifics of this case, the contributor has been notified of the need to watch the WP:CCI page. Every image tagged should be noted at that page; I believe they have been. He has been asked if he would prefer individual notification, but so far has not indicated that this is his desire. No image has been presumptively deleted in this case, as this is not an indefinitely blocked contributor returning under sock puppet. Every one has been duly tagged and, where necessary, listed for review. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:15, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually Im the guy that told you your bot was screwing up articles and got the brush off. Thats a nice attempt to change the subject and redirect fire though. That policy request was based on the fact that I have had several images recently (and more over the past several months) tagged for deletion or deleted out right and I didn't find out until I saw it was missing to an article. Ot the fact that the bot went tearing through a couple hundred articles on my watchlist causing me to revert all but 2 (and Im not even sure about those but I let them go) changes. And since your bot recently caused me and several other editors several hours of work reverting bad edits (the majority of the edits made by the bot I might add) because it wasn't programmed correctly. Back to the point of the matter though. Telling someone to watch for their name on a page isn't the policy unless you chaneged it. You need to notify them on their talk page so that they can respond unless they tell you otherwise by exception. I admit that much of what CCI does pertains to contributors we don't want or need, but that doesn't appear to be the case here and that doesn't mean CCI is exempt from policy. --Kumioko (talk) 18:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't run a bot. Please don't confuse individuals. There may be few of us who work in the CCI area, but we're not one person. :) That you have had images deleted (not via CCI) or that you disagree with the application of policy to one CCI has no bearing whatsoever on this case. (I don't believe you got any kind of a brush off in your earlier query, but that has even less relevance to this conversation. You probably know where WP:WQA is, if you feel differently and would like to request uninvolved feedback at an appropriate forum.)

This contributor is still actively editing and is capable of voicing his own desires. He has been asked if he would prefer individual notifications. Had he at any point indicated that he would, he would have received individual notifications. No individual notifications were supplied as a courtesy to him because of his prior concerns of harassment. That said, he still has only to request individual notification to receive it. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The issue of the bot aside continuing to dodge the issue of why CCI tags violates policy by tagging articles and images for deletion without notifying the user is the issue here. And providing the Excuse that they can watch the CCI paeg isn't an acceptable response. Your right this editor is capable and did say something and then was told "Maybe you could save everyone the time and go through your CCI yourself and make sure that the licenses are correct rather than blaming it on the person trying to clean up the mess". This is what I am talking about. Comment like that coming from members of the CCI project. The ongoing pattern of "we are CCI and have free reign to do what we think is right and if you don't like it then help out" mentality. You are bullying users and using Gustapo style tactics as a recruiting tool for your project. It amazes me that more editors aren't complaining. I realize that at times it may not seem like it but I am trying to be civil here but the comments and etiquette coming from the CCI members is making it difficult. --Kumioko (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

First, CCI is not a project; it's a process board. That said, I have to wonder why you think User:Quantpole speaks for CCI. This is the administrators noticeboard, and anybody is welcome to contribute here. I'm looking back at his or contribs and I see no edits whatsoever to CCI or any individual CCI...not one, ever. And that said, he'd be more than welcome to start. Any contributor with no history of copyright problems is welcome to help out. You may be trying to be civil, but you are falling somewhat short: "You are bullying users and using Gestapo style tactics as a recruiting tool for your project." Maybe I'm the one who needs to go to WQA. :/ I have never done any such thing. As to the rest, I don't plan to argue with you. If Richard, who has known since the CCI opened that he would not receive individual notifications, would like to receive notification, he need only speak up. Your speaking up does not replace his doing so. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 20:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• I hate to interrupt this dialog, but I'm getting lost so let me chime in with a quick question. Can someone explain why notifying the uploader isn't being done in these cases? It seems at the least like a reasonable request but I assume there are good reasons for not doing so? Hobit (talk) 22:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Notices are not routinely provided for items tagged during a CCI because these investigations can deal with hundreds or (as in this case) even thousands of specific items. The presumption is that contributors generally do not intentionally violate policies, and there is an effort made at discretion (which sometimes fails but, fortunately, not that often). Every item tagged at CCI is logged on the CCI page, so the contributor does not need to be watching every image or every article; they only need to watch that page if they want to know what is being done with a particular image or article. Since discretion totally failed in this one already (for obvious and very good reasons), let's take Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Darius Dhlomo for example. This involves 13,542 articles. Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Darius Dhlomo 1 begins the listing of each, which is marked when cleared or addressed. It is a courtesy to active contributors at CCI that we don't hit them with dozens or more templates. (Indef blocked ones, it would also be pointless.) (Eta Oh, and it certainly is a reasonable request; it may be lost, as this has gotten long, but it would have been honored if he had ever made it. I asked him here if he would prefer individual notices, but he never responded.) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Thats good to know about it being a process board, I thought it was just a Project. I admit I don't know what the difference is but it seems like a board would have more authority. I honestly don't know who the members are since I usually see the same 3 people responding. So your saying that knowone from the CCI team has ever said something like "Feel free to volunteer to work on CCIs (we have 46 open - plenty to choose from!) and other copyright cleanup and encourage others to do so and no such drastic measures [as running a bot] would ever need to be considered" such as here and here when numorous editors stepped forward about the actions of VMbot? Which BTW didn't go through BRFA as far as I can tell but was supported by a couple of CCI editors on the CCI page that hardly anyone watches. These are just 2 examples from 1 editor but I have seen several others recently that paint the same picture. I do apologize if I seem like I am centering this towards you sepcifically as this deals with CCI's practices in general and not you as an individual. I confess that I find myself vecoming frustrated by the "its not my fault its the editor" fingerpointing and the ongoing rhetorical comments. It may not have been you as you say but it was folks from teh CCI team and the general tone is we have the power to this and you can't tell us otherwise. Back to the point of this discussion...again, is that niether I nor the user above should need to step up and say hay I want to be notified. The policy is that the user be notified. Exclusion should be by exception (or if the user is known to be gone or in large numbers such as the Darius Dhlomo incident), not by default as appears to be current practice. --Kumioko (talk) 22:44, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

First, if you're going to complain about lack of notification perhaps you should have bothered mentioning this thread to me since you keep bringing me back up in it, even though I'm not working on the CCI which is nominally in question here. Second, there are no "members" of CCI anymore than there are "members" of ANI. Third, just so I have a reference: could you point me to the exact policies that state users must be notified when their images are tagged for deletion? VernoWhitney (talk) 23:30, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I do not know of any such policy. I think that the existance of the CCI subpage is a lot like notifying the uploader, as long as the editor is watching the page. With the Darius Dhlomo CCI, you didn't have to notify Darius Dhlomo. The subpage served that purpose. Why not the same with this CCI? Jsayre64 (talk) 00:52, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's see if we can clarify things here. The process board does have authority. It's in action now. This user is the subject of a CCI; he has violated our copyright policy on a number of occasions...most recently just a few days ago, although this was a text matter (about which he has also been previously notified). There are literally a thousand + (somewhere between 1780 and 1800, to be exact) of images involved here; I regard this as a "large number". I have personally reviewed and happily marked clear most of the images this user has added; many of them are excellent. A number have been deleted. What remains are largely non-free images, many of which have insufficient rationales.

Richard has known from the beginning of the CCI that he would not receive notification. He was told here: "To avoid spamming people, we do not do individual notices for issues located, but they are annotated there." That was reinforced to him here: "I've asked people not to tag your talk page to avoid cluttering it, since you know to watch the CCI." I've several times already linked to the interim edit where I asked him to let me know if he would rather his case be handled differently. His complaint against this contributor includes the allegation that he "refuses to notify the uploader, even after several requests to do so". Are there diffs to substantiate that he has requested of Jsayre that he be notified and ignored? If so, viewing them would certainly help. I see this note at the individual's talk page, where he mentions notification. It was left today at 02:10. AJsayre has not tagged any images since then, and, in fact, before this ANI report was even filed offered here to help supply FUR for these images.

In past CCIs, the notification procedure has apparently worked just fine. If Richard wants his handled differently, I see no reason to object to that, but he does need to make that clear.

(In terms of the bot, which again has nothing to do with this, it was discussed at an WP:ANI subpage, here, and its BRFA listing is here. Contributors can read for themselves whether the response you received was quite the way you recall it. I see some signs of frustration there, but certainly nothing like a Nazi comparison; Godwin's law remained uninvoked until today. ;)) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 01:04, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm done. Your still not getting my point and I don't have the desire or the stamina to continue to debate this. Were so far off topic most readers of this discussion probably don't even know what were talking about by this point. I am confident we could continue to argue this in perpituity and still not agree or come to any meaningful resolution so its time for me to go back to what I was doing. At this point it just seems like I am being argumentative and thats not what was trying to convey. VM your absolutely right and I had actually gone to let you know a few minutes later but Moonriddengirl beat me to it.

Here is a link for 1 place where it says that you should notify the contributor Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Its a slightly different venue I grant you but the concept is the same. Here is 1 more just for good measure Wikipedia:Deletion policy--Kumioko (talk) 02:06, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

No one has answered as to why the people tagging for deletion cannot spend the same amount of time adding the newer tags. Whatever tag your demanding today to replace the earlier text version will be obsolete in the future. If it takes the same amount of time, why not do the right thing for the sake of the readers. All I hear are weak excuses and people saying it is the responsibility of the uploader.{{Non-free use rationale |Article= |Description= |Source= |Portion=All |Low_resolution=Yes |Purpose=To illustrate person at peak of career |Replaceability=Non replaceable, person is dead |other_information= }} --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

They could spend the time and add tags / legitimate reasons, but they would have to know if it is in fact the peak of the subject's career and if the person is dead, etc. and so it doesn't take the same time. Just like at PUF where many of the files could just be retagged as copyrighted and given a FUR they are generally deleted when neither the uploader nor another interested editor takes the time to do so. The fact that someone else can go out of their way to fix your problems instead of just telling you about them doesn't mean they have to what with it being a volunteer project and all. You don't have to use newfangled tags, but a FUR does need to be complete; that rule has been around since before you started editing. VernoWhitney (talk) 05:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

They'd also have to actually agree it is a valid fair use case. In particular issues of replacability NFC#1 (being dead doesn't mean there isn't a free image available), significance - does the image truely increase understanding as required by NFC#8, and to a lesser degree perhaps NFC#2 respect for commercial opportunities. Not everyone sees those the same way, so some will believe there is no valid rationale to tag it with. --82.7.40.7 (talk) 07:29, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Well if User:Moonriddengirl and User:Jsayre64 aren't willing to take a few extra seconds of their time to notify people of deletion, or to take a few extra seconds of their time to add the update FUR template when it is missing, or evaluate whether "To illustrate person at peak of career" is valid, I would rather have other people doing the investigation. If they can't evaluate whether "To illustrate person at peak of career" is valid to add, then they probably should not be volunteering for the job of going through my punishment audit by User:Treasury Tag. We should be measuring our success by how much we have fixed and preserved, not by how much we delete. I also think the "punitive audit" should be banned as a form of harassment. Moonriddengirl and Treasury Tag had already tagged my userpage image of my face for deletion. Treasury Tag as a form of harassment and Moonriddengirl for her own reasons. This doesn't instill confidence in me, and I am sure other editors are equally concerned. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Richard, that's is demonstrably untrue. Anyone can look at the edit history of your userpage image and see that I have never touched it: File:Norton-Richard Umea 2257.JPG. Please make sure that you accurately report your concerns at ANI. Speaking of which: do you have diffs to support your claim that you asked Jsayre for notification on multiple occasions and were ignored? Or are you perhaps not recalling that correctly as well?

You were told what to do if you desired notification. As to taking a few extra seconds, I assure you it took more than a few seconds to explain to you on the 18th that you still cannot copy text from previously published sources. Leaving you a pregenerated notice, that takes considerably less time. Since it is evidently your desire, I will make sure to give you the pregenerated notices in any future instances of copyright violation.

There is nothing whatsoever "punitive" about this audit. You for whatever reason have violated our copyright policies with images and, as I know now, text on multiple occasions. It is necessary to review your content to make sure that everything we still have is as it shoudl be. You have been treated with courtesy throughout the review and have done little to demonstrate your good faith in cleaning up issues that you have caused.--Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:54, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I requested MRG's assistance at User talk:Moonriddengirl/Archive 31#Canada–Tonga relations. Flatscan (talk) 05:45, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The only time Richard has ever gone to my talk page was the recently opened section here, and as you can see I did not ignore him. Jsayre64 (talk) 21:38, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

That was the first time he asked me to notify him of problems with his images, and I haven't been working on the CCI since then, because of this discussion, obviously, and Richard being upset. Jsayre64 (talk) 21:42, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

You are doing a tedious job, a valuable service to the project. Your volunteering your time has been appreciated, greatly. If and when you do decide to resume, please keep in mind that Richard has now said he would like the templates. I'll make a note of this change at the CCI. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:03, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you feel that the investigation is a "punishment audit by User:Treasury Tag" when I'm the editor that placed the CCI request. AS MRG said above, please make sure the concerns you voice here are accurate. VernoWhitney (talk) 22:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

There have been some images listed on the CCI that had a rationale with enough information, but just no template. In those cases, I can just merge that information into a rationale template... no problem. But "low res, no revenue loss, person is dead" is not quite adequate enough and, as I've told Richard before and as VernoWhitney pointed out, the uploader, and only the uploader, is the one who knows exactly how the rationale should look in the template. Jsayre64 (talk) 01:47, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

My argument still stands, if you don't have the energy or skill to add the newer template you are demanding, we should find someone else who has those skills and who has the extra little bit of energy to add the template and make a quick evaluation. I always assume good faith, but I don't think you are the right person for this job. It gives the appearance you are measuring your success by how many you delete and not how many you preserve for future readers. If I can make the needed changes on an image of a dead person I have no personal knowledge of; and you lack that ability or the time to complete it, as you have repeated multiple times above, we need to find someone with both the skill and the time to replace you. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

That brings us back to the original reply, where Quantpole recommended that you go through yourself and make sure the licenses are correct. This is a good suggestion. No more images would need to be tagged with "disputed fair use" because of incomplete information; any disputes would be substantive. At that point, all that anybody else would have to do is note that there are no problems and move the images to join the many which have already been cleared. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Treasury Tag added about 400 tags to my images before he gave up, after we argued at an AFD. You can go back to the ANI I filed to get him to stop to read more. That is what started this punitive audit. So what I am asking is that we find someone more skilled, and more interested in preservation than Jsayre64 to finish the audit. Jsayre64 has just tagged for deletion File:Norton-ThomasPatrick 1891-1968 1918 draft.jpg, a document from 1918 clearly in the public domain. Treasury Tag as part of his initial harassment tagged File:Norton-Richard Umea 2257.JPG, my userpage image and another reviewer in the audit "Elen of the Roads" tagged it a second time. In his initial harassment Treasury Tag even nominated images that I had cropped that other people had loaded, just because my name was attached to them for reuploading. I admire TrasuryTag for thinking of such an ingenious way to harass me. Remember, anyone can be given a punitive audit like this, and I think everyone would agree that you want a fair and skilled person making the decision to keep, or fix, or delete. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I untagged File:Norton-ThomasPatrick 1891-1968 1918 draft.jpg, documents in the public domain don't need permission. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Where could I see a list of the tagged images, or find them in some way? I would like to take a look at them and see if there is salvageable stuff. Or tell which user did the tagging so I'll just look at his/her contributions list. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

All current CCIs are linked at WP:CCI; Richard's in particular is Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20100822. The vast majority of them have been collapsed into "clear" sections as obviously within policy. Some have been tagged as "Reviewed, believed clear" and some remain "Additional review needed (NF or free)". Every image that has been tagged should be noted in the section "Tagged for further action" with a standard sig to note who tagged it. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I fixed a few images. I'll just mention that stuff like File:Trade_Cards.JPG or File:Creams.jpg need more detailed information, like date of publication of trade card. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

What started this audit was your out of policy uploads of images. Treasury Tag's nominations are not considerations in reviewing these images; each has been evaluated afresh. User:Elen of the Roads did tag your userpage image a second time; she also retracted the tag with apologies ([6], [7]) when she realized her error. I imagine you will have noticed by now that these tags draw review of other admins who make the decision to keep, fix or delete. If you think that the various administrators on Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons who have responded to these tags are not "fair and skilled", that's a much bigger problem than can easily be resolved here. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

• • To deny the role of Treasury Tag in starting the audit as harassment by nomination of over 400 images, including my userpage image, and any image of other users I had cropped and reuploaded, is just silly. That the two were just a coincidence in the same week, defies statistics. Of the about 400 initially tagged, and the 1,000 now in the audit, I count 6 or 8 deleted, most because of the newer "No agency photo rule" and the ones where the NYT notice to renew copyright was found (and they could have been switched to fair use). I am sure I can go though anyone's image upload queue and delete a greater percentage if that was my goal. Adding a tag to delete is easy, fixing is a little more time consuming by a few seconds, but Wikipedia is better for it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Apologies for my mistake on that public domain image, and thanks for catching the mistake, Enric Naval. Richard: if you are catching every image I tag for deletion almost immediately, you must be a very active Wikipedian. And that said, you probably have the stamina to help review images from your own investigation, as I assume you have read about basic Wikipedia image copyright by now. And frankly, I'm hurt by your saying that I'm "not the right person for this job," as I have worked very hard on the CCI and you haven't. Jsayre64 (talk) 19:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

• • • Whether Treasury Tag's actions were or were not appropriate (I had no part of that; it was over by the time I heard of you), this CCI was started because you demonstrably had uploaded images out of policy. Your count may be a bit off. There are 32 redlinked images at your CCI. Some of them may be coincidentally redlinked, but more than 6 or 8 are not. More of them may be redlinked by the time review is finished; some of those that are not redlinked are not because issues were repaired (as with those for which OTRS permission could be provided). I have no idea how many of the 400 you assert were initially tagged may have been deleted; the image listing I used was not generated until after the CCI was opened. It is your responsibility to bring your images in line with policy; again, it would be lovely if you went through the remaining and expanded those with incomplete rationales before somebody tags them. That, too, would be the better for Wikipedia. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 20:19, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

That is because you are counting ones that have been moved to commons and deleted from here, and ones that had their name changed from my numbering system to a prose name, and counting ones that were deleted without notification and immediately reuploaded under a new name. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

That's almost certainly true. As I said, "There are 32 redlinked images at your CCI. Some of them may be coincidentally redlinked, but more than 6 or 8 are not." That is also true. If we want to do a count, we might want to wait until it's finished, but the talk page of the CCI might be a better place for it. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

After I tagged this image for deletion for an invalid FUR, Chester Markel (talk · contribs) added a FUR template, and look at all the info. he provided! That's the kind of rationale that's necessary. Jsayre64 (talk) 17:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Pmanderson and Byzantine names

Unresolved

 – Split ~70kb thread to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names --slakr^\ talk /

user:Kuguar03

Resolved

 – This should never have been brought to ANI, but one can say, Kuguar03 was not personally attacked. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

It all started at this Afd. User:Kuguar03 nominated this article for deletion. User:Piast93 voted to keep it, and added a little advice to Kuguar03 about maybe not nominating articles for deletion so quickly, as it may discourage new users. Kuguar03 immediately accused Piast93 of personal attackshere. When User:Netalarm tried to calm the situation, Kuguar03 accused Netalarm here of joining in a smearing campaign against Kuguar03. That’s when I tried to defuse the situation, but then Kuguar03 began demanding here what he did wrong. User:ZooPro and I tried to explain that there were no attacks made, and no one thought any less of Kuguar because of his Afd, but he kept asking what he did wrong, and ended up demanding “a huge apology” for wasting his time. Netalarm, Piast93, ZooPro, and I all tried to calm him down, but it seems Kuguar03 won’t stop accusing people of attacking him. The Arbiter^Talk 00:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Hm. If that's an "attack" or a "smear" then I've been executed and drenched in mud many times over; any thicker skin for sale somewhere? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow. Just wow. First it's unbelievable that you'd rather go to ANI than admit you were wrong, but then you misrepresent what happened in such a ridiculous way? Here I thought you were just foolishly joining in the pile on without really trying to understand the issue, but it seems you have some deeper issue that I'm unaware of.

All I've ever wanted is to know what I did wrong, or acknowledgment that I didn't do anything wrong. Is that so much to ask? Kuguar03 (talk) 01:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I do not really see any personal attacks at that AfD either. Kuguar, it may very well be better even for your own sake to not let little stuff like that insult you so easily. [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 01:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

AGAIN, as I've pointed out many, many times the only issue here is what "mistake" I made by nominating this article for deletion, as stated here, here, here, and here. That's not trying to "defuse the situation", it's escalating it. If I made a mistake, tell me what it is. If I didn't, then I didn't. Kuguar03 (talk) 01:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

And for the record, I gave an in-depth explanation of my reasons for nominating the article here. Kuguar03 (talk) 01:25, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

As you can all see, he just refuses to let it go. The Arbiter^Talk 01:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

As you can all see, he refuses to answer a simple question. Kuguar03 (talk) 01:38, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I do not really see where you did something really wrong. Although it is nice to have new users create articles for us, I do not think we should 'keep' articles just because a newbee created it. When an article is poorly sourced and/or there is doubt that the subject is notable enough, we should look for reliable sources that give the facts and establish notability. If we can not establish notability, then it may well be worth deleting. The other editor may have been just giving his own opinion. It does not look like he was trying to put you down. At this point, I would say just move on. You will waste a lot more time trying to get a result to your satisfaction out of an other user making that comment, than you would just moving on and improving the encyclopedia. [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 01:43, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict x 2)Kuguar03, I don't recall that I've interacted with anyone of the editors with whom you're upset, and I don't think I've ever run across you, so I'm completely uninvolved. I read every word of the AfD and the subsequent conversations you initiated, and I have to tell you that you were not personally attacked. I can show you lots of actual personal attacks, against me and against every admin here, but this is not one of them. Piast93's comment was a constructive criticism - people seek criticism of their contributions every day at Wikipedia:Editor review. Nobody has said anything personal about you - it was a simple suggestion to keep in the back of your mind as you edit. You have to calm down about criticism of your editing or you're not going to enjoy contributing to Wikipedia at all. - KrakatoaKatie 01:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Why is there so much emphasis on the personal attacks? Is that even relevant to the discussion? I'd have walked away from this ages ago if it weren't for the constant accusations that I did something wrong. That's the only issue as far as I can tell. Kuguar03 (talk) 01:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

You're doing something wrong right now, that's for sure; this dog is dead. Leave it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Who, me? The Arbiter is the one who brought this to ANI. If anything he should be censured for wasting everyone's time. If he won't acknowledge he was wrong there's not much to talk about here. Kuguar03 (talk) 02:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Did you even read my second comment above (the one with the blue edit conflict tag)? That should have gone somewhere in telling you what you may or may not have done wrong. [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 02:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe this. Why is there so much emphasis on the personal attacks? Kuguar, in your third message on Piast93's talk page, in the section you yourself titled Try to avoid personal attacks, you said, "Criticizing me for constructively participating in the building of wikipedia is a personal attack". We're trying to tell you, no, it is not. He did not personally attack you. If you are going to take things like that so personally, if you don't want your work criticized - including your AfD nominations, comments, uploads, or any other aspect of your contributions - don't edit here. Let these people alone now. KrakatoaKatie 02:23, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with KrakatoaKatie, No personal attack was committed and I feel it seemed to go from something very very simple to ending up on ANI, like I said to you before Kuguar03 I did not consider anything you or anyone else did wrong I do think there may have been some miscommunication that has somewhat been resolved here. No one holds any ill towards you and will treat you like any other editor. I welcome your contributions to the project and hope that this mis-understanding has not blackened your view. Please try to remember we are humans just like you who are sitting in front of a computer trying to make the world a better place by building a free encyclopedia. ZooPro 06:34, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Just a comment from an uninvolved editor. I don't think User:Kuguar03 really did anything wrong in nominating the article, but I also don't think User:Piast93 was guilty of bad faith or made any personal attack in offering some advice. User:Kuguar03's pursuit of this has gone way too far into dead horse territory -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for acknowledging that I did nothing wrong, ZooPro. I'm curious what caused you to reverse you previous position, but I don't see any point in continuing this conversation. I did nothing wrong by nominating an article for deletion after careful consideration, and repeatedly criticizing me for doing so is an attack and not constructive. Some editors disagree with that, fine, but it's completely irrelevant to the discussion here. The only issue is, and has always been, whether or not it's a mistake to nominate an article for deletion. I don't believe it is, and as I understand it, wikipedia policy is on my side. I don't know why Arbiter would rather escalate (and totally misrepresent) issues than admitting to being wrong, but if he hasn't done so by now he probably never will. I don't know what outcome he expected, but he now owes lots of other people apologies for wasting their time. But as long as none of the editors involved come after me again I don't see any point in pursuing this matter further. Kuguar03 (talk) 09:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

How many times is it going to have to be repeated to you? Criticism is not a personal attack. It is not their 'opinion' as you state above, it is defined that way in policy. As katie said, if you can't handle critique, you would probably have better luck elsewhere than wikipedia.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 09:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Holy crap, talk about beating dead horses! Let me say once more before finally walking away: The only issue here is whether it's wrong to nominate an article for deletion or not. That's it. That's all. There is no other issue here. Constantly talking about personal attacks is adding nothing to the discussion. Constantly misrepresenting what I said is adding nothing to the discussion. Constantly misrepresenting the issue is adding nothing to the discussion. Yours, KrakatoaKatie's, and other editors' comments are completely irrelevant to the issue here. If you think they are, you need to go back and look at what actually happened, because they are not, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Arbiter, Piast93, and Netalarm repeatedly told me I made a mistake by nominating an article for deletion. I disagree. I was hoping to get some explanation of their view to try and understand better where they were coming from, but none is forthcoming. That's all that's going on here. That's it. There is nothing else. If you don't have anything to add to that discussion you're adding nothing to the discussion.

Now if anyone wants to have a constructive discussion, you know where to find me: Diligently working with other editors to build an encyclopedia. It's baffling to me why so many people would oppose that. Kuguar03 (talk) 10:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, how about I repeat most of my second post in this thread, where I try to answer that?: "I do not really see where you did something really wrong. Although it is nice to have new users create articles for us, I do not think we should 'keep' articles just because a newbee created it. When an article is poorly sourced and/or there is doubt that the subject is notable enough, we should look for reliable sources that give the facts and establish notability. If we can not establish notability, then it may well be worth deleting."

And, in addition to that repeat: There is nothing wrong with nominating an article for deletion, as long as it does not qualify for inclusion in Wikipedia (such as it not being notable enough).

Does that answer your question? [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 10:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Just because you say something, doesn't make it automatically true.. also, you don't get to decide whose comments are relevant to this discussion; firstly to my above point, the rightness/wrongness of the AfD is not the only issue here, the other issue is your misunderstanding of wp's WP:NPA policy. You can't go claiming someone is attacking you every time you're criticized as it's disruptive editing and draws away from improving the encyclopedia.

Secondly, there is nothing our comments are misrepresenting about yours; you clearly think you were attacked because someone disagreed with your nomination; you say that exact thing in several posts above. It may be the case that you think you were attacked; that isn't what's up for dispute in this issue, what is up for dispute is under policy, those are not attacks, and continuing to claim such is in itself an attack, because it is baseless accusation. Calling you stupid would be an attack, saying you were wrong for noming an article.. no.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 11:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

And just to remind you, this thread was not about whether you were right to nominate the article for deletion, but about your unjustified allegations of personal attacks after you had been given constructive suggestion. If you re-read the thread you'll see that no contributor to the thread felt that you had been subjected to personal attacks. So the situation is simple: You were justified in raising the AfD, and you weren't subjected to personal attacks. End of thread? - David Biddulph (talk) 11:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Come on folks, I suggest we all just back away from the man with the stick now - let him have the last word if he wants -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

This isn't about last words; this is about an ongoing behavioral issue that needs to be corrected, continuously claiming others have been issuing insults is nothing but disruptive when they in reality have done no such thing.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 11:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, he says he's stopped now, and I personally see no benefit in continuing this - so that's the last from me on the subject too. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:18, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Continued Actions by User:Daedalus969

I hate to pursue administrative action, but I don't know what else to do about User:Daedalus969's continued actions WRT this discussion. Apparently not satisfied with my responses here, he's made comments on my talk page here, here, here, and here, all but the first coming after the discussion here was closed, if I'm reading the time stamps correctly. Both myself and another editor have told him to drop the stick but he just won't let up. Kuguar03 (talk) 00:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to stand by while you accuse me of harassment on my very first message to you, and then subsequently tell me to start a disruptive request for policy change because you have a misinterpretation of WP's policy on personal attacks; further, I sent my first message to you before the discussion above was closed, but you decided to instigate again with a baseless accusation of harassment.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 00:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

No, that's not true at all. But then, none of the accusations here are true. I've never been hostile to constructive criticism. The issue of the attacks (or "attacks" if it makes you feel better) was dead and I had dropped it long before Arbiter brought this to ANI, just as the AfD discussion was dead and I had withdrawn it long before Piast93 started this whole thing. I've never been the one holding the stick. Others have, currently you are. Just drop it. Please. Kuguar03 (talk) 02:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe it should be that everyone just go seperate ways and drop the stick. I can not seem to make sense out of this issue, so maybe it would just be better if we just stop and leave this issue behind us. Where are we going with this anyway? [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 02:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:22, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Not true at all? Are you telling me then, that you never told me my first message to you was harassment and subsequently told me to start a policy discussion because of your interpretations of policy? Talk about a bold-faced lie.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 02:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Your failures at reading comprehension are not relevant here. There is a stick in your hand. Drop it. End of discussion. Kuguar03 (talk) 04:23, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Daedalus969, what we have here is a user who was reported here by mistake. They don't seem to want to press any previous claims about personal attacks, so it would be courteous to allow them to drop it. This means you need to drop it, too. It's over, walk away. Dylan Flaherty 04:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Dylan, it would be better if you just recuse yourself from anything to do with me, as all you ever do is bait me. If I see one more comment from you on an issue that didn't have anything to do with you, giving your uncivil advice, I will request a topic ban preventing you for commenting on issues regarding myself.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 05:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Now that, Kru, is an attack; there is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension, you quite clearly accused me of harassment. Do I really need to quote you? Or are you going to continue to lie?— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 05:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The same happened to me a few month ago. user:Daedalus969 harassed and wikihounded me all over wikipedia including, but not limited to nomination for deletion pages from my own user space, leaving me 10 (maybe more cannot remember) annoying messages on my talk page in a matter of hour after I asked quite a few times to be left alone, and reporting me as a vandal, when I removed those messages from my own talk page. Then an interaction ban (that I enjoyed very much) was issued between the user and me. I voted for it myself with both my hands.user:Daedalus969 has opposed it. Too bad it has expired. That user user:Daedalus969 will never drop the stick, and he wants to be an administrator! With the same behavior persisting a few weeks block is in order. --Mbz1 (talk) 05:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

And you just violated your -indefinite restriction from commenting on me. I also never harassed you or wikihounded you 'all over wikipedia'; I'm now going to seek your block, as you have broken your indef restriction.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 06:01, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I see now it wasn't indef, either way, that was a clear attempt at instigation; you've got your thread since you just couldn't control yourself.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 06:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The only block that's in order is yours for dredging up something that happened a year ago in order to start another argument. You obviously need to be indef-banned from commenting on me, as you are obviously unable to control yourself.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 06:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Crikey, this has gotten way out of control. You all need a time out, I suggest stepping away from Wikipedia for at least 48hours and take a breath. I have no idea how "nothing" turned into world war 3 on ANI. This should probably be the final comment made on this as i think we have far more pressing issues to deal with. In plain simple english "No one attacked anyone, no one did anything wrong, no one needs to continue with this sense less arguing", because sooner or later its gunna turn into a real personal attack and then people will start getting blocked. I hope this is the end of this please. ZooPro 18:32, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The only issue at this point is Daedalus969's unwillingness to let it go. The issue of the personal attacks was dead long before Arbiter brought his completely fabricated charges to ANI for the sole purpose of wasting everyone's time, so I have no idea why you would try to restart that discussion. Kuguar03 (talk) 20:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Now that is a grand example of something that is not true; you attack me several times above, so your incivility is definitely an issue.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 22:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I swear if either of you comment here again I will trout slap you repeatedly. ZooPro 00:40, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Terra Novus

Terra Novus is a creationist editor who has been topic banned form broadly defined "Young Earth Creationism topic ban" Terra Novus has recently created an WP:SYNTH/WP:NOR article called Interpretive science where the entire thesis is

"Though it (Interpretive science) originated in the field of Sociology, applications in the natural sciences can yield insight into the process of forming a scientific theory, and some of the fallacies that persist in consensus ideas.[9] Interpretive science calls into question the ability of an individual to accurately assess all of the data that is processed, without first making a value judgement.[9]"

This pretty obviously once you see the context of his past editing in creationism its a pretty meant to be a round about attack on "Normal Scientific consensus of a 4.3 billion year earth."

Given his past ANI visits in topic area after a [8] [9][10] and misuse of retirement and Clean start. We need to have another talk The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 00:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

You have provided absolutely no connection with how Interpretive science is related to my Young Earth Creationism topic ban. When it comes to the WP:SYNTH issue with the above article I have actively requested and approved the proposals for merging and removing the problematic content. I believe that my recent editing history will show that I have complied with the topic ban while focusing my contributions on editing and improving the article in question.--Novus Orator 00:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

indeed even more explicit evidence of the article purpose from the FAQ on the talk page "Yes, Interpretive Science is the study of how preexisting philosophy influences the development of certain scientific models to the exclusion of alternatives." The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 00:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Let me add wikilinks to the statement to make it more clear what i am reading " "Yes, Interpretive Science is the study of how preexisting philosophy influences the development of certain scientific models to the exclusion of alternatives." The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid that you are extrapolating without sufficient data.--Novus Orator 02:35, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I am also surprised that ResidentAnthropologist instantly elevated this conflict to an ANI without going through the proper dispute resolution process. Perhaps his edit history would yield some insight into this odd behavior...--Novus Orator

This is not content issue its a violation of your topic ban. Please Specify an accusation rather than make vague statements The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 00:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

My original question remains unanswered.--Novus Orator 02:35, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Issues with Terra

(ec-od) I am not aware that a formal topic ban was ever enacted. There have been various agreements, all of which Terra Novus has not really adhered to. The discussion of the article Interpretive science started on WP:FTN; at present Terra Novus is disrupting the merge/deletion discussion on the talk page of that article. He is equally well being disruptive by not recognizing criticisms from multiple editors. Personalizing this as a dispute with ResidentAnthroplogist is a completely unhelpful strategy and just more disruption. There are several other issues. He declared himself a co-organiser of WP:WikiProject Cryptozoology.[11] when he made a WP:CLEANSTART. Just recently he has been active with that WikiProject.[12] And he has made several abortive attempts at starting Wikiproject Jupiter. He himself does not seem to have edited any articles related to Jupiter, so the many structures he has put in place for Taskforce Jupiter are perplexing. Mathsci (talk) 01:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I concur. I read the archived material, and I noted several supports for a topic ban, but no formal discussion of one was started (e.g., under that heading), nor did any administrator conclude that a topic ban proposal had reached consensus. Jclemens (talk) 01:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

He does not seem to have disengaged from the article Cryptozoology as this edit in support of an edit-warring IP shows [13]. The IP 68.224.206.14 (talk · contribs) has broken 3RR on the article and the normal reaction would be a request for semiprotection and/or a report at WP:AN3. Instead he requested Dougweller to impose a sanctions template. Mathsci (talk) 01:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

In support? No, I merely requested that all of the editors involved seek a more collaborative solution.--Novus Orator 02:40, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Somewhat predictably, as on each other occasion when he's caused disruption, he has now diseppeared for a while, hoping that matters will settle. This is the fourth time this has happened. Isn't it time to say "enough is enough"? Mathsci (talk) 07:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Disappeared? I am right here if anyone wants to comment.--Novus Orator 02:40, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed that is frustrating, on a side note I have a hard time seeing how Speedy deletion under Blatant Hoax should not be used on Interpretive science. It seems pretty clear with the from my interpretation of his FAQ that its merely that... a WP:SYNTH Hoax to push a POV The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 15:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps because you have still not provided evidence for the original reason of this ANI.--Novus Orator 02:40, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

After an absence from the discussion, I looked into things again when I bumped into Terra Novus on other science-related pages, including Climate Change Denial. I had quite a history with his editing a few months ago (under User:Gniniv), but specifically chose not to participate in the ANI threads under this new account name. Having looked at the archives, particularly the one Jclemens alludes to, I've seen several instances where either a topic ban or outright block reached near-unanimous support, but nothing was enacted. Is there a reason for that which I've been unable to track down?

As I've mentioned before, I have no issues with the idea of Terra working collaboratively, or having a 2nd chance, but I've become fully convinced that's not possible after he blew through his 10th+ chance some time ago. Unfortunately, it is still the case that the overwhelming majority of his edits to mainspace are reverted for POV issues, and he seems to be increasingly encroaching on his self sanction by creating YEC wikiprojects and contributing to physics and pseudoscience articles. These issues have been going on for 7 1/2 months, and the only dent in WP I see that he's made is to frustrate and waste the time of other respectable editors. One of the reasons I took a wikibreak some months ago was due to frustration stemming from this issue. From the responses of other editors I've seen, I'm undoubtedly not alone. Is it appropriate that we lose editor time, or editors all-together, in order to salvage some hope Terra will finally turn around and work constructively despite mountains of evidence to the contrary? I know we all want to assume good faith - I did it working with him every day for months - but good faith or not I'm having a hard time finding value in this user's history.

This discussion is fully warranted, and I think it's about time we act on what appears to be consensus support. Jess_talk|_edits 20:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The above assessment seems reasonable. Terra Novus has been given umpteen second chances but despite that has shown little sign of changing his attitude to the project. He appears to be somebody not cut out for editing wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 21:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Topic Ban

After the above discussion and past discussions on Giniv/Terra Novus and any future identities from editing articles or participating in discussions involving the topic of Creationism or Pseudoscience broadly defined.

• Support as proposer The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 21:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Unfortunately I think an indefinite community ban is more appropriate, considering his conduct and past attempts to impose topic bans of this kind. There seem to be hardly any redeeming features in his editing. Mathsci (talk) 21:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I dont blame you an indefinite community ban is jumping the gun. We have never formally given out a topic ban as the ANI threads have shown. Lets give him WP:ROPE, I hate to say but I think he will hang himself with the rope. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 21:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
    • Requests of this type have been started before, as Jclemens correctly commented. If anybody can point to a body of useful edits, that might be helpful. Mathsci (talk) 21:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
      • Thats why the community imposed ban rather than one he agrees to. bottom line he break the one we are imposing right now we will adress the next step.
• Support and Comment I think his long history of self-imposing topic bans and breaking them makes a strong case against another one being effective. I also think his history of editing other topics to include wording which relates to, but doesn't directly involve, creationism or pseudoscience makes the case for casting a wider net than those two topics alone. Therefore, I (very unfortunately) think a community ban is preferable to wasting more editor time reviewing contributions and inevitably discussing this again later. However, I would change my position if someone can find a string of useful edits he's made in the year he's been editing which we'd be remiss for losing. If they exist, I would encourage changing the topic ban to also include Science, generally. Jess_talk|_edits 21:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I thought of that but thats far too broad to be reasonable. His only issues in Science are when brings in Creationism or Pseudoscience into play... at least that I have observed The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:14, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support expanded topic ban per Jess, at least. If a formally imposed ban is ineffective, as seems very possible, then a community ban would be appropriate to consider. This needs to be truly his or her last chance to contribute productively, though. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:12, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support the original proposal, with a caveat that if Terra Novus is unable to abide by the topic ban and contribute to other areas of the encyclopedia, any further disruption will result in a full community ban. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 22:19, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support I thought I was abiding by a topic ban on the above subject already. I am surprised that Interpretive science is considered to be under that umbrella, but I will stop contributing to this area of Wikipedia if my behavior is viewed as disruptive. Taskforce Jupiter keeps me pretty busy anyways. I would leave with the note that perhaps some of the editors involved in this ANI are going on a wild goose chase without substance.--Novus Orator 02:31, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Dylan Flaherty

Resolved

 – Doc talk 07:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

You may recall that User:Dylan Flaherty came to WP:ANI with a frivolous accusation of "drive-by tagging" demanding that I be sanctioned for reverting his removal of a tag. The unanimous consensus at ANI was that the tag was appropriately placed and that his removal of the tag was disruptive, bordering on vandalism, and that Dylan should disengage. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive657#Drive-by_tagging_and_false_accusations_of_vandalism.

Instead, he has canvassed other editors to remove the tag, and is back to edit-warring to remove the tag, despite the fact that he has refused to engage with me on the talk-page about multiple editors' multiple complaints about NPOV problems with the article. See Talk:Charles_G._Koch#Dispute_over_tags. Given the very clear warnings at ANI that DF has disregarded and his continued disruptive behavior, I hope administrators can intervene. DF has been topic-banned at Sarah Palin for similar WP:IDHT violations. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive657#User:Dylan_Flaherty_and_Sarah_Palin. More severe sanctions are apparently necessary, given that previous ones are not having the desired preventative effect against his disruption. THF (talk) 03:23, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that THF keeps inserting the tags as badges of shame, going against consensus. He has been consistently unwilling to explain what in specific motivates his tags, so they keep getting removed by whoever's paying attention at the moment. The rest of this complaint is simply frivolous. Dylan Flaherty 03:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Charles_G._Koch#Dispute_over_tags shows why this claim of DF is entirely false. I've repeatedly explained why I've added the tags. I get WP:IDHT in response without any engagement of my legitimate concerns. THF (talk) 03:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

THF, you need to present your argument better. I clicked on the first link and saw that Dylan Flaherty removed a template. TFD (talk) 03:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Dylan complained to ANI that I added a template. He was told that I was right to add the template, and that he shouldn't remove the template. He kept complaining to ANI, and was told he would be blocked if he didn't drop the matter. He didn't drop the matter, and is edit-warring to remove the tag--to the point that the page is now protected with Dylan's removal of the tag. THF (talk) 03:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

As explained below, this is not at all an accurate summary. I recommend that people read my response and also see for themselves. THF is not a reliable source. Dylan Flaherty 04:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

If you have any doubt that the consensus is for removal of the tags, please read the article talk page.[14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21] Dylan Flaherty 03:41, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

If you have any doubt that there isn't consensus for removal of the tags, see [22], [23], [24], and [25] and Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive657#Drive-by_tagging_and_false_accusations_of_vandalism where DF's argument was previously rejected. Why do I have to relitigate this several times a week when Dylan was explicitly warned to disengage and drop the matter? THF (talk) 03:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

No, the AN/I report did recognize that you were uncivil, but they were not willing to get involved in a content issue. I was warned to drop the AN/I report, not to drop my participation on the article. Dylan Flaherty 03:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the consensus is to remove the tags, basically because multiple editors agree that there are no current NPOV problems. The title of this post is in error as well, since Dylan is only one of several editors removing the tags. He did not canvass as far as I know- I came to the article entirely on my own. The basic problem is that THF is unwilling to give us a rundown on any problems he sees with the current article, but rather points to multiple threads on a long talk page, which other editors either see as resolved, or can't make heads or tails of in terms of current complaints. Since THF is the one saying there are problems with the article, he should clearly and concisely explain why he thinks so. Editors have asked him to do this multiple times, but he refuses. Meanwhile, he maintains a slow edit war over the tags on the article. So what you have here is THF edit warring and refusing to discuss. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:50, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I endorse Becritical's summary. Dylan Flaherty 03:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I should add, I'm not defending the actions of the editors involved re the incivility on the talk page or edit warring. I'm only saying that THF needs to constructively engage on the talk page. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Multiple editors -- THF, Collect, ArthurRubin, MBMAdmirer -- say there are current NPOV problems. An NPOV tag indicates there is an NPOV dispute, and there plainly is one. I've repeatedly concisely explained what's wrong with the article. Dylan then adds twenty talk-page comments with personal attacks against me so that the talk-page is unreadable and then uses that as an excuse to remove the tags because I didn't respond while I was out of town for two days. Again: ANI has already weighed in on this. Dylan explicitly ignored repeated warnings about this. It's harassment that I have to keep relitigating this meta-conversation. THF (talk) 03:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Not a single one of them is willing to state what the problems are. In fact, as I pointed out last time, MBMadmirer asked you to list your complaints twice and you refused. Dylan Flaherty 03:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Please don't lie, Dylan, since I've listed my complaints several times, as has Collect and Arthur Rubin. I've refused to relist them because you play WP:IDHT and repeat your request after I've relisted my complaints several times. THF (talk) 04:01, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It is perfectly acceptable to express disagreement, even to the point of saying that my statements are false. However, accusing me of lying is uncivil. Apologize. Dylan Flaherty 04:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The article-in-question should be protected, until the dispute is resolved. GoodDay (talk) 03:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The article has been protected; unfortunately, DF's edit-warring has been rewarded because the tag is absent -- which is especially problematic, because this is a BLP that violates NPOV. THF (talk) 04:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, that would only prevent productive editing. There is a clear consensus to remove the tags. Dylan Flaherty 03:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It turns out that THF wasn't entirely candid about those supporting links. The first[26] is from an editor who then admitted that there are no current POV issues[27] The second[28] is from an editor who cited a long-deleted passage[29] as evidence of current POV issues and then argued for inclusion of tags based solely on WP:NPOVD not being binding. The third[30] is just you. The fourth[31] is an editor who immediately self-reverted[32] and is not a participant on the talk page. Dylan Flaherty 04:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes THF has a point that some editors do think there are NPOV problems, or at least say they want the tags. Unfortunately, they refuse to give a summary of extant complaints. And that's the problem. I came in with the intention of helping out, but was given absolutely no help in understanding what people are currently concerned about, but rather was told by longtime editors there that they couldn't figure it out either. And the refusal to engage continues. The consensus I spoke of may not be current but we did recently seem to have general consensus on the talk page before recent events. Still no idea why the tags should be there though. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Saying to another editor, "Please don't lie" is extremely insulting. Also, listing User:Collect and User:Arthur Rubin to support your case inspires no confidence. TFD (talk) 04:12, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Dylan Flaherty is not really the problem here, but neither is THF. THF simply needs to restate his concerns in one spot so others can address them. I suggest this AN/I be closed. I suggest THF follow the advice discussed on Becritical's Talk page. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I would agree that this should be closed, but I do think that the fact that THF filed this report is a problem, as is his incivility. Dylan Flaherty 04:21, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

THF is repeating his incivility elsewhere.[33] Dylan Flaherty 04:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I retract what I said about Protection. Apparently, that's what it took to get THF to provide some objections. I'll save my comments about the merit of these objections for the talk page, though.

I believe we can close this report now. Dylan Flaherty 05:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Dylan, don't include me in this. I self reverted because I don't want to be involved; not because I agree one way or another; read my edit summary next time.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 05:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe my summary of your role is fair: you self-reverted and are not involved in the discussion. This doesn't mean you endorse anything I've said, just that you aren't actively supporting THF on this matter. Is that inaccurate? Dylan Flaherty 05:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It is; fine.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 05:41, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

How about we just collapse this thread "unresolved" like the last one?[34] It's not going anywhere, right? Seems to be a trend... Doc talk 05:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it is resolved. THF listed some of his complaints. Dylan Flaherty 06:22, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Cool! Remember that maintenance tags aren't the equivalent of a "badge of shame": they are indicators placed by editors that an article may need improvement (and editors will disagree about their usage, as always). "Badge of shame" could be seen as "POV terminology": it's just a "tag". Cheers :> Doc talk 06:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

They're certainly not supposed to be badges of shame, yet they are sometimes used that way. This improper use is characterized by leaving the tags on to discredit the article over an extended period or as a permanent protest over not getting consensus for desired changes. It would be like a creationist leaving an NPOV tag on Evolution indefinitely just because nobody seemed willing to change the article to start with "Evolution is a lie". :-) Dylan Flaherty 13:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

If no one is going to enforce the administrative warnings that were issued at the last ANI to prevent Dylan's repeated abusive behavior, can someone at least revert Dylan's removal so I'm not edit-warring like he is? Thanks. THF (talk) 10:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

To be quite clear, you are mistaken with regard to any claim of admin support for your badges of shame. The warning was about dragging content disputes to this forum, which you are, ironically, guilty of now. Dylan Flaherty 13:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm totally uninvolved in this but I find some things very concerning. Dylan Flaherty keeps saying that the problems for NPOV weren't laid out yet if you read the talk page you will see that s/he states multiple times that they are laid out but that s/he doesn't agree with what is said. Looking at Dylan's contributions, I find it very concerning that the editors who have made comments are than hit with a talk page comment by editor Dylan. The problems were again laid out by THF here with Dylan there trying to knock them down. From the beginning of that comment by Dylan is this, and I quote; " Unfortunately, they were neither novel nor compelling". I'm sorry but this is not a good attitude when trying to resolve a problem. I'm sorry to say but Dylan seems to overwhelm conversations making it quite difficult to follow discussions going on. I have to say that I think Dylan is too close to this article and should stay away for awhile to allow normal discussion to continue. Please read the talk page to see what I saw in all of this. Also looking at Dylan's contributions helps to show that Dylan is too close to the topic to be objective. As I said above, I'm not involved and this is just my personal opinion of what I see going on. Thanks for listening, --CrohnieGal^Talk 11:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much for piling on. I will give your opinion exactly as much weight as I have always given it. Dylan Flaherty 13:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• I have blocked Dylan Flaherty indefinitely following the above response, bearing in mind that this is the 3rd or 4th time in little over a week that this one editor has appeared on an admin noticeboard in regard to their interactions with other contributors and the failure to resolve issues through discussion or other methods of dispute resolution. As soon as an admin is convinced that they are prepared to change their confrontational behaviour and follow the preferred WP ethos of collegiate and respectful collaboration, they may be unblocked without further reference to me. For the record, I have previously had dealings with and warned this editor regarding disputes they were engaged in with User:Malke 2010 when I was their co-mentor. I welcome review of my actions here and then. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

His request for unblock seems unlikely to win him support. [35]. [36] [37] showing his multiple posts to a page where he was disinvited also shows the degree of argumentativeness and drama intrinsic to him. Collect (talk) 14:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the reminder - I had also previously warned Dylan Flaherty about his conduct regarding his posting upon Collects page. I still believe that I am uninvolved, since such warnings are within the remit of administrators. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Meh. I've been reading this thread and the one above, thinking, 'It's more or less inevitable that dude's going to be indeffed for this stuff one of these days.' I wasn't really expecting it to be today, but I'm not leaping to say, 'No, no, please, unblock him immediately! Wikipedia needs more of his unique way of ignoring other users while endlessly haranguing them at the same time! How will we get our daily dose of needless drama without him?' I suppose he should probably be unblocked if he seems likely to work in a true spirit of collaboration, but I have a sad suspicion that if he knew how to do that, he'd already be doing it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
• I have declined unblock. I'm tired of seeing this user here and his approach to other users is simply horrendous. Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
• Disclaimer: I've been involved with disputes with this user in the past. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to find out this wasn't the first block for this person...Dylan's mentioned on this page having an unspecified earlier account; some of his earliest edits were to his monobook. Perhaps he could be unblocked if he demonstrated some understanding as to why his editing style is problematic, or promised to stay away from political articles for some period of time and contributed in some other way. Has he actually contributed much in the way of content? Seems to be mainly talk page wrangling. Kelly ^hi! 14:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• While I am not uninvolved, at this point I don't think that the indef is inappropriate. The level of "I didn't hear that" (in various iterations) and tendentiousness does not lead me to believe that he's likely to become a productive contributor. Horologium (talk) 15:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• I echo what FisherQueen has said (it also sums up my thoughts on this); at this point in time, I don't have anything further to add to that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Per WP:CHILDOFMIDNIGHT, a good block. Incessant, nasty aggression will always lead to the same bad end. This just doesn't seem like someone with either the desire or the capability to play well with others. Tarc (talk) 16:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Sad to say; this is a good block. Dylan has appeared in absolutely every single one of the contentious or problematic articles on my Watchlist in the last couple of weeks. --Errant ^(chat!) 16:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

For a collaborative, respectful (and absolutely insane) editor, that might not be a problem — in and of itself. For an editor with a combative and tendentious attitude, it's a recipe for disaster. Case in point, sadly, here. jæs (talk) 17:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Good block. Hopefully we won't have an ANI thread involving Dylan every week now? /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 18:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Nothing untowards about this block, Dylan almost unendingly attacked more or less every editor who disagreed with him and I must say, sloppily so. I'd also echo what jæs said, one has to be a bit crazy to even edit those articles, which are indeed PoV driven and flawed as to both sources and content. Crazy can be very ok, even helpful, but crazy and battlesome stalls the encyclopedia in many, even more harmful ways. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:21, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Dylan's first edit edit was 8/30/10, and he was an expert Wikipedian on day 1. North8000 20:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• I support this block, as an editor who has worked fairly closely with him for few weeks now. However, if he states that he is willing to work to see where other people he disagrees with actually have valid points even if/when they are generally POV pushers, and stop being uncivil, I believe he should be unblocked. What Dylan does have is a good grasp of RS. I'm not an expert in his personal POV or whether he pushes that on articles. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Good block This user seems more interested in picking fights and taking offense at the actions of everyone else than in trying to genuinely improve encyclopedia articles. If he indicates that he understands how to work with others, then an unblock may be in order. Otherwise, based on his history (including the fact that he has been here a very long time, see the first day's edits of this account) I don't see where we need anymore of his dramamongering. --Jayron32 20:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Mbz1 starting up a dispute that was 6-months gone past;

Unresolved

 – Mbz1 (talk · contribs) blocked indefinitely by Gwen Gale (talk · contribs). HeyMid (contribs) 12:20, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

but reviewed below. Tijfo098 (talk) 13:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Mbz1 (talk · contribs)

6+ months ago, this user was banned from interacting with me, and I guess that interaction ban has now ran out.. Noting this, Mbz1 immediately jumped in in an issue they were not, by any stretch of the imagination, involved in, with the sole purpose of baiting me with a personal attack in the form of an unsubstantiated accusation that I 'wikistalked them all over wikipedia', when such never happened. As they are clearly just trying to start another argument, I request the expired ban be re-instated. I didn't mention them, didn't talk to them, didn't do anything in regards to them, and then as soon as it end, they go on the offensive and attack me?

Per the above, I request that they be given a short block for a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND violation.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 06:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Editor has been notified and removed the notice.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 06:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Make that a long block, since they aren't going to leave this issue alone. Either that, or they are banned indefinitely from interacting with me. I haven't uttered a word since the 6 month ban all those weeks ago, and yet here, some time after the ban, they try to start another fight?— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 06:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Mbz1 removed a templated message notifying him of this thread with the edit summary "removed garbage"? That's interesting behavior right there. [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 06:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Which is fine. I left him a note asking him to avoid interacting with Daedalus969 unnecessarily, which I is something I expect Daedalus969 to follow as well. Prodego ^talk 07:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Does that really do enough to address the complaint, though? She (not he) fresh off the interaction ban just went and...interacted. When users right off a topic ban go back to the topic and engage in the same behavior that let to the ban in the first place, that's usually leads to something more severe. Tarc (talk) 15:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow, agreeing with Tarc -- I think a block for WP:BATTLEGROUND has been solidly earned by Mbz1 for general pugnaciousness and incivility and some of the rudest edit summaries I have ever read. betsythedevine (talk) 16:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd support a block, and I would suggest a substantial one. Another incident where Mbz1 seems to be digging up long-dead incidents is currently here at AE (where Mbz1 seems to be a regular visitor), where there are also suggestions of Mbz1 engaging in outing of another editor. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

And yet more WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality... assuming bad faith and describing another editor's conduct as "disgusting" because they suggested controversial material shouldn't go on the Main Page on a sensitive date [38]. (Surprise surprise, this too is related to the Israel/Palestine/Arab topic area.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Counting on my fingers, ok, WP:BATTLEGROUND with Daedalus, Supreme Deliciousness, Chem Ed, and I would point to even a fourth Wikipedian Bali_ultimate here and here, all examples just from the first 100 of Mbz1's Contributions linked to above. betsythedevine (talk) 18:01, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It would have been nice if somebody is to block user:Demiurge1000 if for nothing else then for canvasing--Mbz1 (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Betsythedevine is also [canvasing once and canvasing 2. Is this only me who sees something strange here? Just asking.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yet another instance of not knowing what canvassing is. Bulldog123 20:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

You are supposed to notify people when they are under discussion at ANI or elsewhere, or am I mistaken about this? betsythedevine (talk) 18:19, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Just to inform everyone, Mbz1 created a sockpuppet case for this. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

And why haven't you blocked exactly? Seems like a fishing expedition to me— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 18:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Mbz1 has been blocked for a week by Gwen Gale for harassment and disruption, and I've closed the SPI case. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Can we seriously consider a community ban on this user? Checking her block log, we have a whopping 10 blocks already. If this doesn't exhibit a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, I don't know what does. A few days ago, I got a mysterious message [39] on my talkpage. Mbz1 (a user I never interact with outside of AfDs where we always disagree) "reverted" it as vandalism [40]. Considering she doesn't seem to have any association with this troll account (or at least I hope not), I can only assume she regularly patrols my talk page. This "patrolling" has been going on ever since I actively participated in the AfD for List of Jewish Nobel laureates (a list she has contributed to significantly). Thereafter, she's been hounding my contribs, jumping in on discussions she has nothing to do with only to reprimand me whenever I make a mistake, like this unintentional case of outing. Bulldog123 20:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I know nothing about these other editors, but if Daedalus969 doesn't receive a very long block for his various actions then the system has failed. Kuguar03 (talk) 20:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Back up your accusations or they are personal attacks. You also know nothing of this situation, so your request for a block can really be taken as a grain of salt. You're only here because I dared tell you that your actions were attacks themselves.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 20:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm here because the extreme hostility you continually display towards other editors is disruptive. Kuguar03 (talk) 20:50, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Diffs or it didn't happen; you can't just claim something of someone and refuse to back it up; it doesn't work that way. I left your thread alone, I dropped the stick, but now you have chosen to pick it up again.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 20:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Gwen Gale changed the block on Mbz1 to be indefinite. Now can we put an end to this discussion? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:16, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

No problems here.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 20:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Long overdue. Bulldog123 21:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I imagine this discussion will be moved to a different forum, because the ban by Gwen Gale, the ban's upholding by a different admin, the ban's extension by Gwen Gale, the examples I gave at Mbz1's request, and perhaps other matters as well are all being strongly protested on Mbz1's talk page, with calls for uninvolved sysops to step in. betsythedevine (talk) 00:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Like Black Kite (talk · contribs), Prodego (talk · contribs) and Jehochman (talk · contribs) (see here), I too agree with the block. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:28, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

This outcome is sad and grotesque. At her best, Mbz1 is a luminous Wikipedia contributor. She is also volatile and periodically high maintenance. But that is a small price to pay for the value of the content she adds to Wikipedia. Genuine content editors are now bizarrely at the bottom of the Wikipedia food chain. They should be at the top. It would be great if Wikipedia administrators had the motivation to identify editors who, although sometimes problematic, are nonetheless high performing contributors, and if these administrators had the skills to accommodate such editors. Instead, administrators too often treat such editors with contempt, as Mbz1 has been here, as though they were mere vandals who should be squashed.

Personally I feel embarrassed and ashamed when I see stuff like this. It is such a conflict. Wikipedia is a massively significant project, yet our administrators are letting the project down so badly. No doubt there are many benign administrators who simply don't intervene because they are afraid. But other administrators seem to have the goal of blocking (demeaning) as many high performing content editors as they can. Most content editors will not speak out now about stuff like this. They are afraid. They know how vulnerable they are now.

Mbz1, if you happen to read this, you need a rocket up your arse for the silly ways you overreact. You definitely need a severe rapping on the knuckles. Grow up. But you were, are, still one of the more creative valuable content editors Wikipedia has had the privilege to attract. Ultimately, the value of Wikipedia is just the sum of genuine and creative content editors, such as yourself, that it was privileged to attract and nurture. We attract a lot of such editors, but then we most dismally and stupidly fail to nurture them. Instead we savage them. If Wikipedia lacks the skills to create a space where content editors such as Mbz1 can flourish and continue to contribute her periodically luminous offerings, despite her somewhat flawed interpersonal complications (and don't we all all have them, however we cover them up), then really, what hope do we have as a species. Why do our administrators make mere interpersonal flaws so fatal? This is a collective craziness and failure on the part of our own unaware Wikipedia administrators, and not for the first time, a jewel creative editor, has stupidly and unnecessarily been strangled. --Epipelagic (talk) 11:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

But not that unusual in cases where user conduct and content contributions conflict dramatically. See User:Ottava Rima, (this was brought up on WP:AN for review not so long ago.) Tijfo098 (talk) 16:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Let the celebrities get off with a slap on the wrist, and treat the common-folk harsher? That doesn't sound right; treat them the same as everyone else. Content contributions don't make you exempt from the rules.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 21:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Block review

• Mbz1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I would suggest that whilst a week block might have been appropriate to allow the user to reflect on how they're going about things, an indef block of an established contributor really requires rather more discussion. I think Gwen Gale's indef block needs to be reviewed, and if there is a move to formally community ban Mbz1, record that appropriately. Rd232 ^talk 12:58, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Agree. A reasonable and sensible comment by Rd232.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support block. This editor constantly causes problems, and the lengthy block log is evidence of inabilty to reform. I could say more, but won't. This was an enough is enough moment.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:20, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support review This was grossly disrproportional and misguided sanction against an estiablished and useful contributer. The admins should AGF like all of us. - BorisG (talk) 13:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment (adapted from my post on mbz1's talk page before this review was started): Topic or interaction bans require cooperation from the banned editor. All that admins can do to enforce those is to block (globally) for violations. Unlike parking tickets, which are for the same amount every time, it seems that blocks in Wikipedia are escalating in length. So, Mbz1 is the only one who can improve on this situation. The significant amount of administrative complains from Mbz1 against editors with whom she had a long term conflict, some of which were unfounded or retaliatory (recent SPI against Dedalus, recent AE against Supreme Deliciousness), need to weighted against her content contributions, some of which I am fond of myself. At least a topic ban from all Wikipedia namespace seems appropriate, but that probably won't help with the other interaction issues. Perhaps reduce the block length to a month or so would be more appropriate. Tijfo098 (talk) 13:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• The indefinite block is technically correct, since indefinite is not infinite and is not a ban - it means that the block lasts until the problem that triggered it is satisfactorily addressed by the blocked user. But I suggest that an indefinite WP:ARBPIA topic and interaction ban would be more appropriate in this case. Mbz1 is apparently a valued contributor in other areas, but in my experience she does not interact collegially and usefully with many people in the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.  Sandstein  13:58, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Sandstein, you may be right about interaction, but topic? Is there a pattern of disruptive editing in article space? - BorisG (talk) 14:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

To my knowledge, all of her many blocks were a consequence of inappropriate interactions with other editors in this topic area. But a broad topic-area interaction ban implies an article editing ban, because article editors need - and are required to - communicate with each other. I should add that a similar indefinite ban would probably be a good idea for several of her regular opponents and allies for much the same reasons. One need only look at the top ten usernames that keep fighting with each other in the regular WP:AE threads about these issues.  Sandstein  14:13, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) One doesn't seam possible without the other in this case. See this AE thread where both the reporter the reportee were blocked: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive71#Mbz1. I don't know what the beef between her and Dedalus is. The problems seems to be WP:BATTLE conduct stemming from the I-P topic area that gets personalized and becomes a series of interpersonal disputes that overflow in other articles. So, I agree with Sandstein, both topic and interaction bans are needed, but those have been issued before. The question at hand is their enforcement. At what point "enough is enough" and an indef is warranted despite other content contributions. YMMV as they say. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:15, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose the block I have never seen more unwarranted block than this one was.--Broccoli (talk) 14:21, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support finding an alternative. Don't wish to criticize the admins who took the action that they did (other than blocking the talkpage, which was MHO a less than obvious call), but guys, can we find a better way. I think every time one of these rows blows up, the parties on all sides have seemed just as bad to me - that's the problem where people are arguing from the soul, everything looks different. What is going to work, what tools and solutions do we have, that we can use to resolve this so that Mbz1 can continue contributing, other people can continue contributing, no foolish accusations are made etc. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Do you have anything specific to propose? Tijfo098 (talk) 14:31, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment on the involved votes. The for/against the block split is as predictable as ever for the I-P regulars. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Tijfo, I think this analogy is superficial. The arguments here are more colleagial, nuanced and reasoned, on both sides. In particular, I take your and Sandstein's point that contribution to articles is impossible without interaction. However I disagree that the problem is enforcement. I understand (correct me if I am wrong) that Mbz1 did not violate her topic ban or interaction bans, at least not in a persistent manner. She started interaction soon after an interaction ban expired? That's not violation, and a simple remedy is to extend the interaction ban. - BorisG (talk) 14:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Do you think that editors need to be specifically forbidden from repeatedly filing vexatious reports before they are blocked for the eleventh time? Tijfo098 (talk) 14:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• A ban on all AE, AN/I etc pages may be useful. Yes, creative solutions are called for if we care about Wikipedia content. Blocks, and especially long-term blocks, are a very blunt tool and should be used as a last resort. Too often we see the opposite. As an extreme case, I saw a comment during the recent ArbCom election, where one editor said a candidate was inexperienced because while he had been an admin for a long time, he did not issue many blocks. - BorisG (talk) 14:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support indef - As I usually note at these reviews, any action which pries yet another tendentious editor out of a heated topic area is a good thing. Indef is not for forever, so the user is quite able to be unblocked given a clear "I fucked up, here is what I will do to avoid fucking up in the future" unblock request. Tarc (talk) 15:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment As an editor who has had a number of run-ins with mbz1 in the past I think that a further review of her actions is necessary before lifting the ban, I also think that we should give Mbz1 the chance to respond in a reasoned manner to the concerns leading to her current block. As I understand it, the initial block was precipitated by her immediate engagement of a party with which an interaction ban recently expired, continuing with an SPI even after she was urged to not seek further involvement. Also cited was what has been characterized as a "retaliatory filing" (by uninvolved admins) at AE which seemed to include material from literally years ago. I would like to hear Mbz1 respond to these matters on her talkpage. As Mbz1 has appealed to a number of admins seeking an interaction ban between the two of us, most recently here I am obviously an interested party to this, nonetheless I think that it is hard to argue against a review of her actions. Based on prior experience I would support a ban on ANI / AE etc pages, however I think that the root cause is her personal investment in the I/P area, where, I must say - positive contributions from her are more difficult to find. un☯mi 15:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I would just like to review the history of the block we are being asked to support or not support. Initially, this thread began with a request that Mbz1 get a one-week block, citing WP:BATTLEGROUND and the text of a very uncivil edit Mbz1 made concerning Daedalus, an editor with whom she had just come off a 6-month interaction ban. Several people supported a one-week block, citing even more clear examples of WP:BATTLEGROUND from recent Contributions by Mbz1. Mbz1 filed an SPI against the editor she had just been reminded not to interact with and accused two other editors who were doing ANI-notification of canvassing. Gwen Gale imposed a one-week block but did not specifically mention WP:BATTLEGROUND. Mbz1 appealed saying she had done nothing wrong. A second admin approved the one-week block. Mbz1 continued to protest that she had done nothing wrong and did not plan to change her behavior. Gwen Gale changed the ban to indef, saying that automatically unblocking after a week would clearly not get the desired result of Mbz1 changing behavior. Mbz1 revamped her talk page from top to bottom, displaying a large collection of the DYK and Featured Picture prizes for which she works so hard, and topping the collection with a block-notice of her own. Gwen Gale removed the block notice but left the brand-new display of Mbz1's trophies. Mbz1 undid that edit. I forget at which point in this discussion she stated that Gwen's admin tools should be removed. But after this piece of edit-warring, Gwen removed Mbz1's talk page access, which she had declared she did not want to use to defend or apologize for ANY of the behavior others had cited. Then Mbz1 canvassed Sandstein and possibly others by email asking for intervention on her behalf. So the question is not, do we support an infinite community ban for an editor who has done nothing but create wonderful content. The question is, was Gwen's initial one-week block appropriate? Is it appropriate for that block to become indefinite if Mbz1, supported by her claque, continues to assert that all her behavior has been wonderful and she should only continue to behave in exactly the same way? Is it appropriate for an indefinite block to be lifted if Mbz1 agrees to stop WP:BATTLEGROUND tactics that hurt the project. I would support all three of those. betsythedevine (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Since canvassing was mentioned, I'll just make it clear that Mbz1 didn't contact me. (Given our prior history, it's hardly like they would.) Rd232 ^talk 18:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support indef or at least support indef in the same way Tarc does. Unblock reviews like this just pave the way for Mbz1's very obvious cronies to come and sway consensus toward "blind miscarriage of justice!" (a case of trading favors whenever a wiki-friend goes too far). Fact is, user has 10 blocks in her block log and appears to regularly hound more than 5 users. What does someone have to do to exhaust community consensus these days? Bulldog123 17:33, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Agree with Rd232. Mbz1's vast contributions to this project require that she treated better then with an indef for this one incident. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:20, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support indef. Not infinite, but until they get the all-important clue. Brewcrewer above refers to Mbz1's "vast contributions to this project," which seems to indicate that if an editor has added quality work in the past, they should get some kind of conduct pass. With all due respect to Brewcrewer and other editors using this argument, there's no (official) policy giving some kind of sliding scale that allows editors to reach a certain level, then ignore Wikipedia's rules. Dayewalker (talk) 18:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

if she were to be indef blocked it would not be under any specific policy, so no "sliding scale" exception is needed. It's a community decision that allows someone to be indef blocked via an ANI discussion. Thus it would only make sense that all editors offer their opinions on this user, and the overall contributions of this user be taken into account.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I've had some interactions with Mbz1, some positive, some negative, some neutral, and she's definitely a more productive editor than I'll ever be. That said, content production can only outweigh so many behavioral infractions before the balance goes into the red; disciplinary actions, edit warring, etc., suck up editor/admin time. Given the problems in the I-P area, I think a very long topic ban/interaction bans would be appropriate but looking at the block log . . .is that going to work? The ban's been imposed and broken on multiple occasions. There's been no acknowledgment from Mbz1 that the original 1 week block had any basis, something it's pretty clearly got. If someone doesn't acknowledge/understand why their actions are problems and has broken the same rules after promising not to in the past, I'm less than hopeful that topic/interaction bans will work. If they can work then I'm all for them. Sol (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• There will need to be an indefinite ARBPIA topic ban should the user be unblocked, with respect to which I voice no opinion at this moment. T. Canens (talk) 18:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

this brouhaha did not arise from anything related to the A-I conflict, as far as I can see.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Malicious hoaxery

Resolved

 – Articles speedied, commons images nominated for deletion.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:28, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• VERITAS (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Veritas Trust Seal Veritas trust (AfD discussion)
• 129.31.65.96 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 129.31.212.220 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 129.31.65.142 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Some more watching eyes would be useful on this. Already the article on VERITAS, a telescope array, has been overwritten twice with the same content as at Veritas trust and Veritas Trust Seal, all of which is in the first place a copy of what can be found in our VeriSign article with some name changes to make it seem as if the U.S. VeriSign is the Singapore Veritas. Trust seal has been vandalized to contain this purported company's purported trust seal. This appears to be a systematic, multiple article, attempt to mis-use Wikipedia to impersonate VeriSign, that — oddly — is originating from Imperial College London. Uncle G (talk) 06:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Bondiveres/User:64.85.252.225/User:Sgaran

• Bondiveres (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 64.85.252.225 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Sgaran (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I became aware of this user - and I will demonstrate that it is very likely the same user - when I blocked the IP for 72 hours for vandalism and edit warring at Paola S. Timiras on December 19. At the time I blocked only the IP because he was deleting content, and at the time I didn't know any of the story I'm about to relate. It was simply another response to an WP:AIV report, and I didn't think any more about it.

About 24 hours later, User:Bondiveres added this statement to my talk page, complaining about the IP's block and that Wim Crusio, who edits here as User:Crusio, is on some type of vendetta against him about the use of 'phenomics' instead of 'phenotype'. This goes back to these two AFDs, as far as I can tell - the IP is trying to get information into the Timiras article that was deleted by consensus at AFD. Quack, quack.

Several hours to my involvement in this mess, Bondiveres sought help and advice from User:Gnowor, and you can find their conversations here. Gnowor clearly is trying to give the editor some advice, but Bondiveres seems like a classic case of WP:IDHT. Tonight Gnowor's patience finally wore out, and he's told Bondiveres again that he's going about this the wrong way and that he's done with dealing with Bondiveres's issues.

But this is why I'm here now: yesterday, Bondiveres started plastering this diatribe on my talk page and the talk pages of several other editors. He also stuck it into Talk:Wim Crusio over several edits. I think he's trying to demonstrate that the Crusio article should be trimmed because all the Nobel laureates' articles aren't as long, or something. I responded on his talk page to not take the size of articles in KB as some weight of importance or notability.

Meanwhile, the 72-hour block of the IP expired, and after it did the IP added the same screed to the talk page of User:Colonel Warden - word for word. Quack, quack, quack.

It's obvious to me that the IP and Bondiveres are the same person. I also suspect that User:Sgaran, the Steven A. Garan of one of the AFD discussions, is the actual sockmaster here. And it's plain that he's not here to add to the encyclopedia - he's here to harass Crusio in both real life and Wikilife. I'd like a checkuser run to see if these three are indeed the same, and if there are more.

In addition, I believe we should restrict this editor at least from User:Crusio, Wim Crusio, and Paola S. Timiras. There may be more articles and problems of which I'm not aware. And it goes without saying that he's not to do this canvassing on talk or user talk pages again.

I'm notifying editors who have received that long message and may know more - Gnowor, Crusio, User:OrangeMike and User:Nuujinn. I just discovered Nuujinn opened an SPI on Sgaran in May 2010.

This is nonsense and it's spreading. It has to stop. Thanks. KrakatoaKatie 08:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Given the length of the discussion that started on my talk page and has now moved here, I'm guessing it's helpful for a quick summary.

I was Huggling. I noticed an edit by Bondiveres (BV) to Paola S. Timiras. It was the same as an edit that Crusio had reverted. The edit in question looked like some shameless self-plugging, along with something that defied WP:MOS guidelines on bolding the subject of the article. I reverted. Although the edit was by an IP editor, BV was the one who alerted me on my talk page that it was constructive. I took a closer look, and tried to restore the info without the MOS violation.

Crusio notified me there was history and linked me to the AfDs above. I tried to act as an unofficial mediator between Crusio & BV and also educate BV as to WP policy. Eventually, I proposed a solution that avoided any potential plugging of articles which I believe BV contributed to off-wiki that are not notable (I defer to Crusio on notability standards on scientific articles based on my only physical science class in undergrad being Astronomy). BV had insisted that the name of a device (AIMS for short) was very important to Paola S. Timiras prior to her death, and that it was not the same as the ATIS it redirects to. I proposed we change the name on the PST page to AIMS with a cite to one of the non-notable papers for reference. Crusio didn't like the cite. I figured, if BV is really looking out for PST's interests, he won't care about the loss of the cite. He did.

After this, BV started to attack the Wim Crusio article which is a bio of Crusio. Based on the early edits to the page, and subsequent block of that user, it looks like the article's creator was a student of Crusio's (possibly). Regardless, Crusio himself at one point nom'd the page for AfD and succeeded.

Bottom line, despite the gentle hand I tried to treat BV with as he is a new editor, and a fairly stern warning by myself, BV is unhappy that he can't use Wikipedia to plug his non-notable off-wiki work. He's proceeded with a vendetta against a veteran editor who (understandably) lost patience with the situation long ago, as I feel I now have.

I sincerely apologize to the community if my handling of the situation has resulted in this escalating to this point. Please understand I intervened with best intentions. I thought I was dealing with two brilliant and reasonable individuals who would accept a fair solution (and Crusio did). In the future, when I see myself investing this much time in a matter with little progress, I'll hand it over to the pros.

Based on my time invested, I don't intend to return to this discussion, as I feel that is all the background I have. If more information is required, feel free to notify me on my talk page and I'll happily return. Thank you in advance for your time.--Gnowor^T_C 09:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

BV's actions seem similar to Sgaran's to me, but then, the ips in the SPI seemed similar to Sgaran as well, so take that with a grain of salt. This conversation may be useful for comparison, but other than that I have nothing to add really. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Here's a further demonstration that I don't know when to quit. Interesting tidbit I just discovered: The Paola S. Timiras article that the IP and BV are trying to add info to was actually created by Sgaran. Perhaps this user is unaware of WP:OWN as well?--Gnowor^T_C 12:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks Katie for taking this to ANI. I had some tough traveling days here with only sketchy Internet access and only just now got back to my office (you may have heard about the travel problems in France). I think Katie and Gnowor summarized the situation very aptly. Gnowor was very patient in trying to get BV to behave in a more constructive way (see User talk:Gnowor/P.S. Timiras, which also has links to the AfDs that are at the basis of this affair). I have removed BVs diatribe from my own talk page. I would appreciate if this personal attack could be removed elsewhere, too, but as involved party will not do this myself. As for my bio, this mess illustrates why I took an earlier bio to AfD. Fortunately for me, that previous bio missed a lot of info, so that the AfD succeeded. I did not take the current bio to AfD, as my experience with academics AfDs tells me that this time around, that wouldn't fly. Despite itching fingers, I try not to edit it and hope some other editors will put it on their watchlist and keep an eye on it. As for its size, I couldn't care less, as long as what is in the bio is accurate. Thanks. --Crusio (talk) 15:54, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

First I have been asked by Garan to be an advocate for him since he no longer has the time nor the energy to address what has happened. Second I would like to thank Gnowor for his time and effort in this matter. And now I would like to address the issue at hand. This entire issue was started when Wim Crusio's actions failed to redirect the wiki entry Phenomics to Phenotype on April 27, 2010, please look at the edit log for Phenomics to verify the dates and actions. Please look at the change log for Phenomics and you will observe Crusio repeatedly tried to redirect the site and failed. After Wim Crusio lost the "battle" to redirect Phenomics to Phenotype, he started a vendetta against my friend Garan, who advocated for keeping the page, and as of today the page is still there. After this loss Wim Crusio took a sudden interest in deleting/redirecting/removing content from the following entries: Automated Imaging Microscope System, Paola_S._Timiras, Aging Research Centre. I am not sure what the afore mentioned wiki pages have to do with "Phenomics"? Crusio even admitted that "There is a connection", these are his own words. A very long discussion took place with Gnowor regarding the restoration of information that Crusio deleted and as of this time of these comments, the restored item, is still on the site. Wim Crusio has removed quite a lot of information from wiki and this is all documented. He has deleted this information under the false pretense, just as he did with the information Gnowor restored. I have tried to restore the information Crusio has deleted but he has blocked every attempt but for one. Why is it that when Gnowor adds information to a wiki site and when the same information is added by BV it is considered "continued vandalism"? Crusio even removed the following item that was well referanced: "In 2001 at age 78, Timiras and her former Ph.D. student Paul Segall founded the Center for Research and Education on Aging at the University of California, Berkeley[5] of which she served as the first chair". Why would he do this? I am not sure if Gnowor wants to spend another hour of his time on defending this addition and that is perfectly understandable. I started to wonder of Crusio practiced a similar level of editing on his own site. I noticed that his own wiki page, Wim Crusio is more than twice the size of an average Nobel Laureate in Physiology or Medicine from the past 14 years. If people think that Wim Crusio should have a wiki page larger than that of any of the previous 32 Nobel Laureates in Physiology or Medicine, then that is great! I would support that my self. But let the discussion take place, do not delete the question and the responses to them. My posting of this question was deleted by him, and now no discussion can take place regarding this matter. I thought wiki was a place where good information that is referenced, can be posted, so that others can learn from this information, and discussions can take place with out fear of being stopped. I would like to know how I have restore referenced information that Crusio has deleted.? Without him blocking every step? And without people like Gnowor having to spend a great deal of time backing me up? Bondiveres (talk) 21:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The issue is not the size of article, which has been explained to you as irrelevant, nor is it the use of phenomics and phenotype. The issue is your behavior. You are causing problems by canvassing, edit warring, and stalking User:Crusio. It's been explained to you that your information is not notable. Stop it. KrakatoaKatie 23:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Regarding my success where you have failed, BV, I'd like to think that's from following WP guidelines about editing("being bold"), reverting, and discussing. You made an edit, I reverted, you and I discussed. I made an edit you and I agreed upon, Crusio reverted, then the three of us discussed. Where you're running into trouble is that when the discussion doesn't go your way, you've tried to insert non-relevant material in order to avoid the decision in the AfDs (prior to my involvement). When the discussion didn't go your way our interactions, you've proceeded with the canvassing, stalking, and editwarring that Katie mentioned.

Katie, Crusio, and myself could be contributing this time to improving this and other areas of the encyclopedia. Rather than joining us in that bold endeavor, you hang on to the hope that you can get your way with this one specific set of articles. You're running into trouble because we're trying to make the encyclopedia better, and you're trying to get what you want.

Additionally, regarding your size of Wim Crusio argument: I believe you have a flawed premise. That premise is that a more important article should be longer. If we accept that premise and act upon it immediately, I'd argue that Wikipedia would be immediately blank. We'd have to have a discussion about what article is most important, 2nd most, 3rd most, etc, and then proceed with restoring pages and trimming to appropriate size. And given that I don't believe the 100k+ active editors are going to come to an agreement on that any time soon, I believe that Wikipedia would remain blank for quite a long time. Wikipedia is a work in progress. Viewing your argument about size of article's in the best light, your conclusion is that Nobel Laureates should have longer pages than Wim Crusio. So take it upon yourself to make them longer. If Katie, Crusio, myself, or many other experienced editors were to make that argument, that is what we'd do. Why? Because it improves the encyclopedia, rather than taking away from it by deleting content from an article.

You're a scientist, BV. I guarantee you're a lot smarter than a lot of the people that Katie and I deal with when we normally fight vandalism. As such, I ask you to take a step back and evaluate your actions. Are you doing what's in the best interest of the encyclopedia? Or are you doing what's in the best interests of BV/Sgaran? I've spent the time engaging in this dialog with you because unlike users that make edits like this I believe you have valuable contributions that you can make to the encyclopedia if you choose to do so. Whether you choose to do so is up to you.--Gnowor^T_C 23:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you once again for your great comments Gnowor and for your time. I completely agree with what you said regarding the fact, that it is better to contribute to the wiki encyclopedia than to delete as has been the case with Crusio and the afore mentioned pages. I am sorry for bringing him into this again, but this is why we are all here. The only reason I mention the page size issue, was to provoke a response. It appears I have done so. Please read what James Cantor said: "The problem you are describing seems to me to be a reason to add good material to the pages on your list.". James mirrors, what you said, in that it is better to add information than delete it, and once again I agree whole heartedly. But I am afraid that puts me into a bit of a catch 22 situation, and takes us back to when a certain person removed the content for the Automated Imaging Microscope System. Details of the system have been published in many peer reviewed journals, and I would like to share information about this system to the rest of the wiki community. But Crusio can blocked this, even though hard copy publications have published details of this system he does not want to allow the information to be put on wikipedia. He has made repeated attempts to suppress this information. I could play the same game and remove information from his page and say: "The information in the page was self promoting and superfluous and many other things" but as you said this would just deplete wikipedia. I would like to restore the page for the Automated Imaging Microscope System. Listed are the journals in which details of the AIMS system and the it's results are published:

Long list of journals cited by BV, removed by Katie, restored by Gnowor

Estrogen receptor-alpha immunoreactivity in the arcuate hypothalamus of young and middle-aged female mice; Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2010 Feb 16;31(1):15. Age-dependent loss of insulin-like growth factor-1 receptor immunoreactive cells in the supraoptic hypothalamus is reduced in calorically restricted mice; Neurology & Neurosurgery, Para. 488, Page 99, Sec. 8, Vol 152.2, 2007 Novel methods in computer-assisted tissue analysis: Customized regional targeting of both cytoplasmic and nuclear-stained tissue; Experimental Gerontology, Volume 42, Issues 1-2, January-February 2007, Pages 141-142 Tracking changes in hypothalamic IGF-1 sensitivity with aging and caloric restriction; Experimental Gerontology, Volume 42, Issues 1-2 , January-February 2007, Pages 11-12. Insulin-like growth factor-1 receptor immunoreactive cells are selectively maintained in the paraventricular hypothalamus of calorically restricted mice; Int J Dev Neurosci. 2007 Feb;25(1):23-8 Age-dependent loss of insulin-like growth factor-1 receptor immunoreactive cells in the supraoptic hypothalamus is reduced in calorically restricted mice; Int J Dev Neurosci. 2006 Nov;24(7):431-6. A study of insulin-like growth factor-I receptor immunoreactivity in the supraoptic nucleus of young and old female B6D2F1 mice; FASEB Journal, April 2006, 357.5 Caloric restriction reduces cell loss and maintains estrogen receptor-alpha immunoreactivity in the pre-optic hypothalamus of female B6D2F1 mice; Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2005 Jun;26(3):197-203. A survey of estrogen receptor-alpha immunoreactivity in the hypothalamus of young, old, and old-calorie restricted female B6D2F1 mice; Experimental Gerontology, Volume 39, Issues 11-12, November-December 2004, Page 1771 A comparison of estrogen receptor-alpha immunoreactivity in the arcuate hypothalamus of young and middle-aged C57BL6 female mice; Experimental Gerontology, Volume 38 (2003), Issues 1-2, Page 220 Creating Three-Dimensional Neuronal Maps of the Mouse Hypothalamus Using an Automated Imaging Microscope System; Experimental Gerontology, Volume 35 numbers 9-10, December 2000, page 1421 Automated Imaging Microscope System; Linux Journal 2000, Issue 70, Februrary, Page 32-35 Why is it, that the details of the Automated Imaging Microscope System are published in these journals and yet details of the AIMS system are not fit for wikipedia? Is it not worthy because I only listed 12 publications and the minimum is 15? I only say this tung and cheek. Or is it that wikipedia has higher standards than the following journals: Experimental Gerontology, Neuro Endocrinology, Internation Journal of Developmental Neurosciene, FASEB Journal, Linux Journal, Neurology & Neurosurgery If the answer is yes, then I think that says volumes about the people making the decisions to remove content from wikipedia.

I am sorry for my tone and if seems to be a little too direct, and if I have provided too much information, I only did so, to provide as much information as I have available; but when I see injustice I think it is the obligation of all of us to shed light on it and to educate and to inform, and I feel that is the best way to go forward. Bondiveres (talk) 02:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I've blanked the section you added (restored within collapse by Gnowor), BV, and it's now apparent you just don't understand. KrakatoaKatie 02:58, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion on topic ban for User:Bondiveres/User:64.85.252.225/User:Sgaran

Based on his lack of understanding and continued refusal to abide by WP:N, WP:NPOV, and WP:V, and his ongoing harassment of User:Crusio, I propose a topic ban for Bondiveres and his IP from Wim Crusio, Talk:Wim Crusio, Paola S. Timiras, automated tissue image analysis, AIMS microscope and their related articles, broadly construed. He should also avoid interaction with User:Crusio and is not to edit the pages or talk pages of articles Crusio edits.

I need a checkuser to determine if these three accounts are related. If so, he must agree to edit from only that account.

Since it's the holidays, I may timestamp this to keep discussion going. If admins want to reword or change my proposal, propose away. I'm very tired and I need to rest a while. Thanks. :-) KrakatoaKatie 03:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello Katie,

I thought the purpose of wiki was to share information and not to suppress it. A "Discussion on topic ban" this sounds like something that takes place in China or North Korea. Please restore my comments and let this discussion take it's natural course. I am not sure if your actions are what Jimmy Wales had in mind when he created Wikipedia. Please do not suppress the free flow of information and thoughts. If your reply to my statements are "you just don't understand", you might at least be a little more specific and engage in a civil discussion that pertains to the topics at hand. I have taken the time to discuss the events that are outlined and I think I have brought up a number of valid points. I thought people such as your self would be willing to talk about these points so a mutual understanding can be reached. I am afraid the statement "you just don't understand" is not very constructive. Please outline your point of view and if I am unable to dispute your statements I will, agree with you, and I hope the reverse is true as well. All the best. Happy Holidays. I await your reply. Bondiveres (talk) 03:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support see the following:

I removed the aforementioned content from the Wim Crusio talk page ---,[41], and BV restored it [42]. He began a disscussion on my talk page [43], to which I responded [44]. I again removed the irrelevant personal commentary and attack from the Wim Crusion Talk Page [45].

Hence, based on the discssion in the previous section, and what I have added here, I think an indefinite topic ban is in order, until this user is able to state their case for having the ban lifted. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 03:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello Steve

Once again, the reason that this entire series of evens has taken place is because of deletion of information. I had hoped the free flow of thoughts and opinions and allowed to be expressed. I fear this may not be the case here. I would hope if someone disagrees with something can freely discuss issues without fear of being censored. If you disagree with someone, then please says so and give the reasons and less the other person reply and so on. That is how a civil society is supposed to function, even one that is online. I await your reply.

I did read your comments on your talk page and can I assume that this is the correct place to discuss this topic and if it is, then why did Katie place a ban on it? If this is not the correct place please let me know where the correct place is. Bondiveres (talk) 04:13, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support per free speech/China/Korea arguments here. And Bondiveres, if you disrupt this discussion with attacks like that again, I'll block you temporarily so the discussion can proceed in a reasonable manner. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:13, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Sarek thank you so much,

Thank you for a well put statement. Please tell me how else I can refer to system, where comments are removed from an open discussion? I am open to all suggestions. I only made reference to the afore mentioned regimes, because this is type of information deletion and blockage that takes place on a routine bases, and has been in the news of late. I would welcome your suggestions on how to classify this action. All the Best. And thank you once again from a well put comment. I await your reply. Bondiveres (talk) 04:25, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support:

By directing BV away from this given topic, it will give him an opportunity to constructively contribute to other areas of the encyclopedia and learn WP policy. Refinement of Steve Quinn's application for lifting of the ban: After several months BV of active constructive participation in other areas of the encyclopedia according to policy, I think that BV should have the opportunity to argue from policy for the lifting of this ban. I propose this as a one time opportunity, with a bad faith request by BV of the lift of this ban being grounds for this ban becoming permanent.

Additional IPs with similar behavior and Articles that might be subject to Topic ban:

(This info found via Article Blamer upon inspection of Articles currently on WP that have cites similar to the ones used by BV)

Extended content

71.133.206.3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Additions of similar links to Preoptic area[46](2007), and Insulin-like growth factor 1 receptor[47](2006). Edit history also includes edits to Paola S. Timiras(PST) and AIMS, although edits outside of this subject area as well. Public computer? Last edits by IP are to PST in 2/2009. 4.42.226.40 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Addition of similar links to Estrogen receptor[48](2006). Edits to Phenomics, Ageing, Estrogen receptor, Calorie restriction, Insulin-like growth factor 1 receptor. Last edits May 2006. 84.63.16.247 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Addition of similar link to Australian Plant Phenomics Facility[49](11/2010). Only edit by this user. In addition, Sgaran had this edit to Calorie restriction. I realize the first two IPs are too stale for a block, and the single edit by the last IP isn't very troublesome. Still, based on similar edit pattern, I propose the following pages be specifically included in the topic ban (although they probably would've already fallen under a broadly construed ban): Australian Plant Phenomics Facility Estrogen receptor Ageing Estrogen receptor Calorie restriction Insulin-like growth factor 1 receptor Preoptic area

Thanks for everyone's time on this.--Gnowor^T_C 04:33, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Inspection of BVs edit history shows not a single edit that was not related to the Sgaran walled garden or made to harass me. A topic ban would therefore in practice not be much difference from a block. I also add that BV has "seeded" his personal attacks against me over several pages and I repeat that I would greatly appreciate if somebody would remove these. Thanks. --Crusio (talk) 13:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Note restored after redaction by BV.--Gnowor^T_C 18:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Gnowor, perhaps you would be so kind to restore the redaction that was made by Katie as well. Crusio's comments are false and inflammatory. I would like to place this on the record and hope that these statements are not redacted. Crusio's false statements of walled garden's are personal attacks on me and I strongly protest, and I wish them to be removed. I can not stress this more strongly. I can not abide his presumptuous and false statements. Bondiveres (talk) 18:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Done. I believe that Katie's removal was to try to keep this discussion short and readable rather than listing several journals. You've asked, I've restored. Your removal was another attack on the user you're accused of attacking.--Gnowor^T_C 19:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Gnowor for restoring a part of this section. Crusio's statements regarding walled gardens are clear attacks on me and I would like him to stop this reprehensible behavior. I find it perplexing how a man who is purportedly a Director at a french research institute can make false statements and put them on the record. And the evidence of these actions are written by him just above my comments here, and the statements are signed by him as well, and therefore there is no doubt of his guilt. I can not understand how someone like that can engage in such actions. I ask him most kindly in light of the holiday season to reconsider his behavior and to act more becoming of a person of his rank. I ask him most sincerely to stop his attacks. Thanks. Bondiveres (talk) 19:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Walled garden is a technical term used here on WP that you can read about via this link. It is not an attack. His statement that you don't have a single edit outside of the arena is accurate. His accusation about your dissemination of attacks on him and the article about him are also accurate according to your edit history.

More importantly, your continued contributions to this discussion focus on Crusio. This discussion is currently about your actions, and in every post, you try to deflect by saying "he did it first". Regardless of who started what/when, you need to take responsibility for your actions, which are in violation of a number of concrete Wikipedia policies, and for continuing to take up the community's time.

Also, notice: Despite having every opportunity to present your case via this discussion, users with no prior involvement are siding against you. This should be another reason to reflect on your actions.--Gnowor^T_C 19:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support topic ban BV's conduct seems to be the problem at the moment. He appears to be using this internet site as a WP:FORUM for making personal attacks on an editor through his real life position in the CNRS. That is completely at odds with the purpose of wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 19:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

One more note. Crusio's dislike of my comments regarding the size of his personal wiki was greeted with thanks by the user Katie. She wrote the following after a very nice comment that explained the issue, she wrote: "Thanks again for the message." Please refer to my talk page in order to see her comments, they are very well thought out and written down. Thank you Katie. Bondiveres (talk) 19:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• It should be clear to all involved and uninvolved editors by now that BV is just playing with us. Somebody block him already, this has gone on long enough. --Crusio (talk) 20:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Bondiveres, why don't you go see how many times I've typed 'Thanks again for the message.' It's called 'courtesy', not 'I agree with everything you've ever said'. KrakatoaKatie 20:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sgaran#24_December_2010. I was so tired I forgot to hit the save button and request the CheckUser. That's fixed now. :-) KrakatoaKatie 20:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Dear Crusio, Please do not refer to me as "this guy", I take the greatest offense, from your comments. I can not imagine using such a term, in order to refer to you, because I have more respect for the people that have taken time to look at the issue at hand. Once again I would hope that others can see the level of your discourse. I ask most kindly to change your tone. All the best. Bondiveres (talk) 20:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

BV's manner of posting comments here is unhelpul. Using the phrase "this guy" was clearly not an attack. Mathsci (talk) 20:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Mathsci, I beg to differ. It is a most offensive form of disrespect. I am quite certain you would not refer to Dr. Wim Crusio as "this guy", I most certainly would not. Please comment. Bondiveres (talk) 20:38, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

That is an unreasonable interpretation, particularly when referring to non-native English speakers. Mathsci (talk) 20:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

"This guy" is slightly pointed slang, but it's nowhere close to a breach of civility. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I would like to say that I have devoted a great deal of time and energy in order to participate in this forum. I respect all those that have taken the time to do so as well. I find it very very offensive that Wim Crusio says otherwise. There are many other activities that I could be engaged in at this time of year, but I feel very strongly that I can not just bow to injustice. Once again I ask you please stop your attacks on me and try to act more in accords with the members of this forum. All the best. Bondiveres (talk) 20:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

This is not a WP:FORUM. You have been told that on multiple occasions. Mathsci (talk) 20:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I sincerely hope your next comment, BV, responds to the last two lines of this post by me.--Gnowor^T_C 20:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Good to hear from you Gnowor. I tried to look for the two lines you referred to, but I can not see which are the once the you mean. Please post this here, or just post a few words so I can search for them in your link. Thanks Bondiveres (talk) 20:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments below.--Gnowor^T_C 20:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Extended content

More importantly, your continued contributions to this discussion focus on Crusio. This discussion is currently about your actions, and in every post, you try to deflect by saying "he did it first". Regardless of who started what/when, you need to take responsibility for your actions, which are in violation of a number of concrete Wikipedia policies, and for continuing to take up the community's time. Also, notice: Despite having every opportunity to present your case via this discussion, users with no prior involvement are siding against you. This should be another reason to reflect on your actions.--GnoworTC 19:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Propose Full Ban

Despite the situation escalating to a Topic Ban discussion, BV continues to focus on matters unrelated to the Topic Ban. I propose this now be escalated to a full permanent ban. I feel that a permanent ban is appropriate as BV's only contributions have been to matters related to this discussion. I also propose that users associated with BV according to the results of the checkuser be included in the ban.--Gnowor^T_C 20:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Support:

1. Per nom.--Gnowor^T_C 20:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
2. I honestly thought a topic ban would do it, but he just doesn't understand how much disruption he's causing and he shows no signs of backing off. He's made no article edits since October and he's using the servers to cause trouble instead of improve the articles he claims don't have enough detail. We've tried to show him the light but it's futile, it seems. KrakatoaKatie 21:45, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
3. Per almost everybody else commenting here, BV simply does not get it. His attitude towards wikipedia seems to be disruptive at the moment. Unfortunately an indefinite community ban seems to be the only alternative at this stage. Mathsci (talk) 21:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Oppose:

Neutral/Comment:

1. I respectfully disagree. I have put forth a large body of information that supports my position. I am willing to answer any questions that are put forth, but I only ask this they be put in a respectfully manner. I have taken a great deal of time to provide as much information as possible. And ask that you consider both sides to this issue equally. All the best. Bondiveres (talk) 21:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

It so happens that people who edit Wikipedia and are wiki-notable tend to have more detailed biographic articles than those who don't edit here. But Bondiveres has been harassing Crusio about this issue and a few other issues, e.g. proposing for deletion a bunch of biographies started by Crusio (e.g. [50] [51] there are some more in his edit history.) I find these actions troubling. If Bondiveres cannot find something else worthy of his attention on Wikipedia shortly, an indef block or ban for harassment seem inevitable and warranted. Tijfo098 (talk) 21:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Mr.grantevans2

Mr.grantevans2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has for the past several days done little but forum-shop and attack me and other editors regarding a dispute at Peter T. King, and is actively avoiding discussing the actual dispute instead . My objections to the content are at Talk:Peter T. King#Various edits reverted and can be summarised as follows. Two quotes from King were being used along with quotes from Joe Wilson and Joe Lieberman to manufacture two different controversies, all in the pre-existing "Controversies" section, when there's actually little evidence of controversy and/or criticism except from Joe Wilson, who has a highly partisan viewpoint when it comes to King anyway.

Timeline:

• 11:42, 18 December 2010. I removed various information from the article believing it wasn't compliant with BLP, and explained why on the talk page, and asked for further sources and discussion before it could be added back to the article.
• 01:58, 20 December. Mr.grantevans2 added back a large part of the disputed information, after making this talk page post which nobody had replied to.
• 13:36, 20 December. The addition was reverted by me, again with an explanation on the talk page.
• 16:10, 20 December. After an IP editor (who was been responsible for most of the original addition) also continued edit warring without discussion to the include the material, the page was fully protected without the disputed information in, which is obviously how protection works when it comes to BLPs.
• 03:30, 21 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 claims on the article talk page that "I'm new to the BLP, looks to me as if its being tightly controled by Editors loyal to the Subject" and "Request for page protection was apparently part of that pov effort", with a header of "Page Protection Apparently for POV Retention"
• 03:26, 21 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 makes the same claims on protecting admin Courcelles's talk page.
• 03:40, 21 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 makes a protected edit request, later declined
• 22:03, 21 December 2010 Courcelles replies to his request for unprotection saying "This was an edit war over a BLP. Controversial material always stays out of a BLP when it is disputed . . . you discuss and then re-add the material when you have consensus, you do not get into a revert war"
• 22:06, 21 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 asks Courcelles to reduce the protection to semi-protection, request refused with a comment of "No. I'm not going to unprotect a BLP during a dispute . . . There needs to be a lot less trying to change the page as it sits at the moment, and a lot more discussion towards what the stable version of this content- if it goes in at all- is going to look like."
• 22:10, 21 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 posts on the article's talk page about the request to lower protection referring to "1 of the 3 involved Editors", which conveniently ignores that there were 4 involved editors since he added back material removed per BLP without discussion or consensus.
• 22:17, 21 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 adds to his previous post on Courcelles's talk page, referring to "obviously pov Editor, RepublicanJacobite", obviously making the wholly erroneous assumption that his username refers to the Republican Party.
• 22:20, 21 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 adds to the post again, now describing myself as an "obviously pov Editor".
• 03:34, 22 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 makes a request at WP:RFPP for unprotection, stating "apparently King Supportive(User pages bias and talk page history)Editors,RepublicanJacobite and One Night In Hackney, reverted RS content once each"
• 13:30, 22 December 2010. I specifically direct him to the discussion at Talk:Peter T. King#Various edits reverted, which you will see has zero input from Mr.grantevans2 to date. I also warned him against further attacks on other editors and their motives.
• 16:31, 22 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 replies asking me several wholly irrelevant questions about my userpage and talk page, stating "Your answers will have a bearing on whether I should be having any discussions with you at all", and a similar comment of "His answers will,obviously, have a bearing on whether I should be having any discussions with him at all" was also posted on the article's talk page.
• 03:37, 23 December 2010. Mr.grantevans2 posts on the article's talk page saying "I tried some mild editing and was quickly and fully shut down. The entire discussion page is full of pov controlled censorship".

So you'll see since the protection he's done nothing but forum-shop to try and get the disputed content back in the article and attack other editors and their motives, and has not once attempted to discuss the content under dispute. Apparently he won't discuss the content with me unless I answer his questions, and he might not even discuss it then depending on how I answer the questions. Would someone like to apply a liberal dose of clue please, while I busy myself writing Wikipedia:You don't have to discuss things with coke snorting riff-raff?

Also since the protection is due to expire on 25 December when I certainly won't be editing and since the dispute shows no sign of being resolved, perhaps someone could consider extending the protection. Thanks. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

 Done--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Response: There was a discussion at the Wikileaks article about putting King's comments about Wikileaks there, but it was narrowly decided to leave it out of there and someone said,I think, that it would fit better here. I wasn't going to take it on, but then I saw the Valerie Plame movie "fair game" which includes several anti-Joe Wilson speech comments by King, and then I saw where Wilson had been interviewd about KIng's comments on Wikileaks; so it seemed like an interesting circle of comments by the Subject, so I figured it was worth having a look at this Blp.

For the first time ever, yesterday I asked the Editor who brought this to ANI, (referred to as"2 lines of k"above)a couple of questions before feeling comfortable with collaborating;specifically:

• Why is there a picture of a snort quantity of cocaine on your talk page? and an apparent attempt at humour relating to executing British Members of Parlianment on your User page?Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 14:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
• not to mention your "2 lines of K" moniker directly above, which in some circles is a reference to Ketamine illegal drug usage.

Your answers will have a bearing on whether I should be having any discussions with you at all.Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 16:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I am awaiting a response from the Editor which I have no technical right to expect. So, I'm hoping enough other Editors will become involved in the BLP for me to work with.

I don't see how the User's User page has any bearing on any discussion. So long as they are not disruptive, and all I see is that you don't like it. Corvus cornix_talk 20:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• This BLP has had neutrality concerns going back several years. Fifty7 (talk) tried from july 2007 to october 2008 to improve it. Others have as well[52][53][54]

Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 14:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

BLP controversy sections

I don't want to distract from this report, but I think we need a separate thread on what to do about the use of "Controversy" sections in BLP articles as the current situation appears to be out of control. For example, just before I saw this thread, I found this and promptly removed it from a BLP. Viriditas (talk) 13:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I would tend to agree. As you can probably see by the article's talk page, my main issue is that sources do not describe either situation as a controversy or that King was "criticised" by Liebermann. It seems to be a recurring problem that any comment someone makes that editors feel is "controversial" is worthy of a section in a BLP, complete with people who "criticise" the person instead of a far more neutral "In reply, [x] said...." style wording. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:19, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't feel qualified to contribute to such a discussion, but I'd love to see that question being discussed; though possibly at another venue. Anthony (talk) 13:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Good editorial practice and therefore the Manual of Style should say that "Controversy" sections should not be written. Instead, the information should be interwoven into the article. If the information cannot be, then that is a pretty good sign that it doesn't belong in the first place. NW (Talk) 15:31, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

For something to be labeled "controversial" there should be evidence of a controversy. I have no opinion of whether the material in question should be included under another heading.   Will Beback  talk  21:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I am embracing the concept that "controversy" sections are often counter productive and the word can become a Straw man as well. Also, when the section pre-exists in a BLP, content will sometimes go in there that the contributor himself would not necessarily have thought of as being controversial but rather simply non-complimentary of the Subject. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

"Level One Warning" for AGF?

Resolved

 – Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 19:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello! On my talk page another editor has given me a "level one warning for assuming bad faith" and I'm curious about this on several levels:

1. Did I actually do anything wrong or that could be considered wrong? If so, I want to correct it.
2. I searched through WP:AGF and found nothing about "levels" and "warnings"-am I missing something?
3. Obviously the editor feels something is wrong--what's the best action for me to take?
4. Is there anything I could have done differently to avoid this (outside of not being involved in the AFD in the first place?)

Any coaching and comments for me would be appreciated! I'm not looking to report the other user, I'm looking to improve my own style.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

1. You said I wonder if this is a personal issue and it's just that you don't like the performer so you were "wondering" if he was editing without integrity, ie you failed to assume good faith.
2. I've left a link to the templates page on your talkpage.
3. You could apologise for not assuming good faith, or, if you think you have good reason to believe they are not editing in good faith you need to explain yourself and back it up and try and resolve the issue.
4. You could read your posts before you click save and imagine whether you would like to be on the recieving end.Fainites ^barleyscribs 15:28, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, it appears they took umbrage at, "I wonder if this is a personal issue and it's just that you don't like the performer?" That seems to imply that they're motivated by dislike of some individual, rather than by a desire to improve the encyclopedia. In general, it's best not to post speculations about another editor's motives.

That said, leaving a "level one" - or any kind of - warning on the page of an established editor is a terrible idea. If someone seems to doubt one's good faith, the solution is to explain one's intentions, not to officiously notify them that they've "violated" AGF. That's the fastest way to make a situation worse. Wikipedia is not made of "rules" and "levels" and all that junk.

The best thing you can do at this point is probably to say you didn't mean to impugn their motives, and walk away from it. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:31, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Wow. Welcome back GTBacchus! It's lovely to see you.
• Hi Paul. Although I would say that you were being a little cutting edge in your statement to Hell In A Bucket, I don't think Hell should have given you the level one warning. In other words, the part where Hell points you to assume good faith, is appropriate. Look, beyond this discussion, I'll be archiving this discussion very soon as the ANI is not for discussing such simplistic editorial conflicts which you both, as mature editors, should resolve in good faith. Fainites and GTBacchus have given the precisest suggestions possible. Employ them and don't throw the olive branch away. Sincere regards. Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 15:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, Fainites and GTBacchus have said everything that needs to be said. As to this particular thread, rather than archiving this, I'd suggest moving it straight to Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests seeing that's where it should have went in the first place. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:42, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

My advice...don't take offense to anything any editor does to you. Your reaction can actually be judged and used as evidence against you as being disruptive if an issue builds. Only push an issue if you can clearly demonstrate that wikipedia is being harmed by an action or behaviour, and even so such actions can be seen as being disruptive and may result in a block. As a wise administrator told me, build up allies...it's much better and safer to have an administrator make your case. --scuro (talk) 18:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for the advice everyone! I think I'll apologize for the harshenss of the comments and walk away from the discussion. I'll also be more careful in the future. Feel free to archive this!--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism on Rooster

I thought that this shouldn't go to AIV, and I hope I reported it to the right place. Someone keeps vandalizing the Rooster article (history), and the IP address keeps changing, so it's difficult to keep track of. Those involved so far:

• 95.28.65.19
• 93.80.212.5
• 81.211.117.162

--T H F S W (T · C · E) 18:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I've now added it to my watchlist, which was getting a little thin. I have to say I never thought I'd see an article where it says "Cockadoodledoo" and "Cocka-doodle-doo" redirect here. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

This should probably be moved to either a quick case of SPI for a rangeblock, or RFPP for semi-protection of the article.— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 19:12, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

All three of the IP's listed emanate from Russia, of all places. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:24, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

In soviet Russia, page blocks you!— Dædαlus^{+ Contribs} 19:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Da! "America loves Smirnoff" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• What I want to know is why the heck are they calling Mikhail Kryukov a rooster? Silverseren^C 19:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
• I wonder if this has something to do with the release of True Grit (2010 film)? Kelly ^hi! 20:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
  • There's only one Rooster Cogburn, Pilgrim! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:22, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

    "Fill your hand, you son of a bitch!" Kelly ^hi! 01:13, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

    • Don't forget that Barettas favorite informant was also Rooster. MarnetteD | Talk 01:08, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
• Semi'ed, three weeks, can always be extended. The range is a gaping wide /4, so options there are extremely limited. Courcelles 04:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Is this a violation of WP:3RR?

Basically, there's a pop album called The Fall coming out Christmas day. Editor after editor keeps listing the tracks from the album, but that's a violation of WP:CRYSTAL, right? There's know way to know until it's actually released. So I've been reverting these edits, and I'm not sure whether this counts as an exception to the three revert rule or not. Am I in the right here, or are the reverts a violation of policy? Friginator (talk) 23:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Counter-intuitively, being correct is not an exception to 3RR. WP:CRYSTAL certainly isn't an exception either. The best thing to do in these circumstances is to stop reverting. Then post messages on the user's talk page and the article talk page explaining your position. Then seek some input from outside sources, such as the relevant wikiproject (WikiProject Albums), via a neutrally-worded message. If the other side keeps adding the content without contributing to the talk page discussion, they're clearly edit-warring and can be reported to WP:AN3, whether or not they've breached 3RR. Another option is to seek full protection of the article (at WP:RPP) to force an end to the revert war and an opening of discussion on the talk page. Sometimes full protection isn't viable if the article is prominent or heavily edited.

But, all that being said, this isn't a case of WP:CRYSTAL. The track listing has been confirmed by a source which I assume is reliable.[55] CRYSTAL only applies to speculation about future events, not if the future events have been confirmed. If the article said "The band has announced the following track listing..." and cited the source, it would seem to be fine. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll just leave it alone then. It's only 2 days, anyway. Cheers. Friginator (talk) 00:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring on Shakespeare authorship question: Zweigenbaum

Zweigenbaum (talk · contribs), a new (but remarkably wiki-savvy) user, has added the {{POV}} tag to the Shakespeare authorship question article four times over the past week, against talkpage consensus and failing to address most of the objections made to the tag. I'd block him for edit-warring and (not just for the tag) for tendentious editing, but I'm probably too involved in the content issues to use any admin tools on that article. I haven't exactly edited it, but I've argued some on the talkpage, and I've once removed the POV tag (I'm too impulsive). Would somebody like to take a look? These diffs [56][57][58][59] are where Zweigenbaum adds the tag. These [60][61][62] are where I warn him. Bishonen | talk 00:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC).

I'm always suspicious of precocious newbies. He should be given a block, atleast it'll get his attention. GoodDay (talk) 00:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

A quick look at the talk page indicates that tensions between regular editors of this article are already strained. Perhaps discussion on the talk page about temporary protection could be a way to de-escalate this, without blocking a new user. Just a suggestion. David Able (talk) 00:28, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd be cautious about jumping to 'blocks to get his attention'. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 00:41, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protection is reasonable. GoodDay (talk) 00:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

O RLY? What purpose do you see semi serving? Nobody involved is less than four days old as a user (did I mention Zb has been adding the tag for a week?), and there's hardly any IP problem. Cavalry, nobody's going to block for such a reason, I'm sure. A good read of the talkpage is really what's wanted here, but it's full of tl;dr and I don't want to ruin anybody's Christmas... maybe I'll fullprotect for a few days, just to give the editors a break. After all this is the season for quarrelling with our families, not with co-editors. Bishonen | talk 01:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC).

Tis the season indeed. Is anyone else ready for Christmas to be OVER! Anyway, I'm not attempting to respond for another editor here...just commenting because it caught my attention: A semi-protect would (hopefully) prompt the new user in question to realize, "Hey, I can't edit the article anymore!" And then hopefully prompt them to look for alternatives, namely the talk page and to responding to his/her user messages. Encouraging him/her to open an RFC about the issue might be a way to go, or perhaps even opening one yourself, on their behalf, if nothing else but to cover all the bases before blocking. David Able (talk) 01:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Z can edit the article. Semi-protection only stops edits by users of less than four days old. That's why I mentioned the four days. He is by no means absent from the talkpage. Bishonen | talk 02:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC).

Full protection. GoodDay (talk) 02:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Without having the will to work my way through the whole talkpage, it does appear there is some collaborative work going on between the main parties with Tom Reedy incorporating at least a few of Z's ideas into the article. That might suggest that it should remain unprotected, in spite of the (reasonably mild) edit-warring. However, the talkpage is such a mess I'm finding it hard to make sense of it (some of the sections seem to be out of order) - if you're familiar with the whole page you should probably just do what you think is best, since I doubt anyone else will manage to read it all. Trebor (talk) 02:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Trebor, that's a helpful comment. Yes, the page is a ghastly mess, mainly (IMO) due to the passionate tendentiousness of the two WP:FRINGE editors, of whom Zweigenbaum is one. And yes, I'm tolerably familiar with it, god help me. Bishonen | talk 03:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC).

AIV Backlog

AIV has a small backlog. If an admin could take a look before it gets out of hand that would be appreciated. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 00:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Fifteen501

For a good portion of the past week, I have been in contact with Fifteen501 (talk · contribs) concerning several of his well intentioned but generally unconstructive edits to several pages. While going through his edits, I discovered his contributions to List of Pucca characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). From discussion in edit summaries and on the talk page, it appears that he has been arguing that a particular entity within the show is a separate character from another and it is called "Gyarados" (the name of a Pokémon). I did a Google search and determined that this character does not exist as far as the Internet is concerned, and also his argument for the character's name (if it did exist) was flimsy at best (he was using a Taiwan Chinese name that appeared in some comic adaptation which is the exact same name used for the Pokémon in its ROC releases).

I removed the section from the article, and began this section on his talk page (which he has removed twice) and responded to the thread he began on the article's talk page. Over the course of the past week, he has added the section back into the article despite my repeated requests that he provide a reliable source to show that this character exists and has that particular name, while he insists that I watch two particular episodes of this show to discover the truth. I sat down today and spent 15 minutes watching these two episodes and still discovered that he has been basing his entire argument on a case of mondegreen, and also discovered that he is the individual who has been perpetrating this falsehood across the Internet (his edits at zh.wiki as Fifteen501 (talk • contribs • page moves • block log) Local: User:Fifteen501 as well as some edits at a fan Wikia).

I cannot seem to get through to this user that he is hearing things wrong and he should stop editing the article to add this wrong information. I am not sure if English is his first language, and he just seems to keep ignoring me and adding the information back despite my civil and blunt requests that he stop.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

At least from his last message to me he seems to realize that the character is not a separate one, but he still insists on using the wrong name. I am not sure that if he edits List of Pucca characters, again, that he will continue to refer to this character by this wrong name, and I will have to remove the blatantly false information, again.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

And I'm just going to link to this discussion for the time being.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Wrong information or not, the article wasn't even formatted for sources. I sandboxed the whole thing, and the information should be re-inserted when sources can be found and properly formatted. Hope this helps. But from a google search, it is questionable if there are any RS on this subject, and thus whether or not it is even notable. The Pucca (TV series) doesn't have sources either. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

That's not really going to help, particularly when subjects are notable but don't receive any sort of critical coverage because it's a kids show.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

But what is it not going to help? Articles can't be written here without WP:RS. I know you want administrative action on the user inserting incorrect information, but that's a matter of sourcing. Without sourcing, what can an administrator do? If what you just said is true, that there are no WP:RS, then the article needs to be deleted. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:06, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't be a deletionist. Lists of characters from a fictional work can be made into articles, and the reliable source for the information should very well be the piece of fiction itself. There is no reason to have blanked the entire character list and now have your sights set on sending any page regarding the Pucca TV show to AFD. The content of the article is not the issue. The issue is that this individual was being unresponsive to common sense. User conduct is the issue. Not content.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:09, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

If he's been edit warring, maybe you should report him for that, though. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Other than that, your complaint seems to be that he is telling untruth, and that is not for an admin to judge. And you're wrong, articles are based on secondary sources. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:15, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Adding blatantly wrong information is a problem, and I would find it hard to claim that it is any way plausible that there is a Gyarados in anything not licensed by Nintendo. But indeed there does seem to be a slight lack of sources on that article. It doesn't have to be blanked, but if there are no sources to be found, then the article's existence would be called in to question. Prodego ^talk 02:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I certainly don't want to be disruptive to the process. It's just my observation that this will give it the best possible chance of being sourced. Otherwise, it will go on as usual, and the editors involved don't understand our sourcing or notability policies. If there are sources, this will be the best way to motivate, but perhaps it was a mistake. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:21, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Becritical, the work of fiction is a reliable source when discussing the work of fiction. You do not need anything other than the work of fiction itself to say what a character does or what happens in a film. Reporting on what happens in a work of fiction is not considered original research at all. If that were true, a lot of our articles on works of fiction would be empty or non-existant. I brought this up here because I needed someone else to talk to Fifteen501 so he does not add this information back in the article. At this point, I've restored portions of an article to where it was a sixth of the length is was prior to my removal of the blatantly wrong content.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly a lot better the way you restored it. Let me try to explain what I'm saying about sources on the article. Yes, you can use the primary source for books and film, but as far as I know there is no exception for the requirement that articles be mainly based on secondary sources. Further, this subject does not, if what you said is correct, get coverage in secondary sources, and therefore may not have any notability for Wikipedia at all. So I'm really curious about what other people would say about whether an article about X, where X is a work of fiction, can be written entirely or almost entirely based on X. Can you write an article on a work of fiction without establishing notability and without referring to secondary sources? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:29, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Secondary sources will rarely ever exist concerning various aspects of a work of fiction intended for an audience below the age one enters middle/secondary school. But, again, this is not the point. I need someone else to come in and tell Fifteen501 that he is not allowed to add information on this character he thinks exists and he thinks is called "Gyarados".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware that many of the articles on works of fiction do not seem to meet the wp:notability guideline or the NOR policy. NOR is very clear, and if there is an exception I'd really like to know about it. And re your problem, I will post on his page, though I'm not an admin. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Articles consisting of lists of characters are generally allowed if the original work of fiction is notable and the list of characters would otherwise clutter up the main article.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:38, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know. Is Pucca notable? I posted on Fifteen501's page. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

It has been shown on TV in 22 countries.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

You may be interested in this. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Geez man. Let it drop. Pucca is notable so the rest of the topics generaly related ot it are notable.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

It's kind of a longstanding question with me how the notability and sourcing policies relate to these kinds of things. Right now, I'm of the opinion that either they should be changed or applied. But you have my (repeat) apology that your articles came up just when this question is coming to a head for me. Hopefully there will be input on this issue. Be assured your article is in no danger till it gets figured out. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 06:41, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Question

Does this edit require oversight or no? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Otters want attention)} 02:42, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Revdelete should be sufficient. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

IMO just vandalism, doesn't need anything. Prodego ^talk 02:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

If you believe something may require oversight, err on the side of caution and email User:Oversight rather than posting it to a noticeboard. Nakon 02:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Sunflowergal34 blocked

I am opening this ANI thread in response to an email to unblock-en-l from the user, appealing their block. I think this situation calls for wider community review.

Will Beback blocked Sunflowergal34 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for sockpuppetry a bit ago; this had been discussed here on ANI a day and a half-ish ago with a brief conclusion that them now openly admitting who they previously were and discussing actions on policy pages didn't require a block evasion block now, though only 3 people other than the person who made the report seem to have commented.

Will's decision seems to be based on the outstanding indefinite block on the prior "main account" that Jimmy Wales imposed this summer ( Petrosianii (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) ). The user was editing for hire, cf the varied controversies surrounding that. They state they have stopped, and based on cursory review (not intimately familar with the case) openly disclosed what they edited and what accounts were previously used.

I believe that the block is in line with policy, but it may be appropriate for community consensus to review it. Comments and opinions welcome.

Will is going to be notified of this thread immediately after I finish posting it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Note: the master account was blocked by Wales in June 2009, not this summer.[63]   Will Beback  talk  04:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I do not believe that the editor, who claims to have earned tens of thousands of dollars a month editing Wikipedia, is being honest. Today, when questioned, he admitted to five accounts and said those were all, but now he says there were more and he's trying to bargain for an unblock by offering to reveal more. He has not disclosed all of the accounts operated by his firm, he has explicitly refused to reveal which articles he created, and he has repeatedly lied. He seems more concerned about his business than about improving the encyclopedia. Wikipedia does not need editors who rely on subterfuge to use the project for personal gain.   Will Beback  talk  03:46, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

A few days ago the editor wrote, ...I would agree with you that some of the articles were schlock. But they are no more schlock than a stub of two sentences that sits there for 3 years. Also, some clients only paid for "schlock" (you get what you pay for).[64] So the editor says he has written "schlock" simply because the clients weren't willing to pay for good articles. Despite earning "tens of thousands of dollars" a month, there's no indication that he or his firm have ever donated anything to the foundation.   Will Beback  talk  05:06, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The editor's latest email to unblock--en-l says that he is going to forget about Wikipedia. This was about half an hour ago. Unless he changes his mind, this discussion seems now moot. Dougweller (talk) 05:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Did that e-mail come before or after this series of talk page comments full of taunting, wheedling and just plain kvetching? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

And how did that "schlock" thing work, anyway? Did they have a Premium package, where you got a fully sourced GA-grade article, a Regular package, where you got a good start-class article with enough refs to stop it from being deleted, and a Schlock package which got your name into Wikipedia, but with no guarantee it would survive an AfD? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:17, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

That's why the maintenance contract is so important. Otherwise, they don't give a refund if the article is deleted.[65]   Will Beback  talk  07:33, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

If those guidelines are an example of the quality of their writing, we should press harder to find out what articles they uploaded, because reading it made me want to edit it to fix all the problems in it: duplication of headings, contradictory information, inconsistency of formatting, etc. If they wrote articles that way, we need to fix them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:24, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Copyvio uploader

Resolved

 – User indef blocked until starts responding to talkpage notices

• BanglaGuy1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I don't think this user has an understanding of copyright. Uploading multiple images with claims that they are self-created, including team logos. Some blatant copyvio, too - such as File:Zohur Ahmed Chowdhury Stadium.jpg which was lifted straight from ESPN. The user has a page full of notices about past uploads and is pressing on with uploading new copyvio images anyway. Pretty sure all past uploads should be deleted as suspect. Kelly ^hi! 03:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Everything I checked was a copyvio. I'm going to nuke the lot just in case. Black Kite (t) (c) 04:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

John Boehner

Please semi-protect or full protect for a short time John Boehner. Siddownwaldo has been vandalising the article and now that he/she is blocked an IP, obviously associated with Siddownwaldo, is continuing the vandalism. IP could be blocked, but it may be easier to simply semi-protect for a short period of time. Arzel (talk) 04:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:RFPP. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 04:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I've semi-protected it for one day (don't want to go longer given the article's prominence) because no-one should have to be bothered chasing around the IPs. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The article has been hit with a lot of IP vandalism recently, hopefully one day will suffice. Thanks. Arzel (talk) 04:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Anybody feeling delete-happy?

Category:Wikipedia files with a different name on Wikimedia Commons has a backlog of about 6,300 images that need deleting. Even if some folks just deleted the easy ones that are orphaned on en Wikipedia, it would be a big help. Kelly ^hi! 04:21, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:BOTR? 67.117.130.143 (talk) 04:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll lend a hand on Category:Wikipedia files with the same name on Wikimedia Commons OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 06:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

LOL, wish I were an admin, I'd love doing that :P BE——Critical_{__Talk} 06:39, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Im not an admin either, I have a list of several hundred that need tobe renamed that I would love to work on too. Good luck. --Kumioko (talk) 15:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Need to take care I have only looked at a few and a high percentage are copyright violations that have been copied to commons without any review. Causes extra work as it has to be deleted twice? perhaps we need to look at how we move images to commons. MilborneOne (talk) 16:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I try to do a couple dozen or so of these every week in both categories. It's not just going and deleting them 1, 2, 3 - the files with different names can take as much as 10-15 minutes to process if the file is used on any pages. Same name is easier, but you still run into the copyright problems MilborneOne mentioned whenever you're working with images. We're also getting more and more images uploaded here that are tagged self-made that are clearly swiped from a Google Images search. The whole thing is just frustrating and depressing if you think about it. So I try not to think about it and just dive in and do the work. Yay, Christmas Eve!! :-) KrakatoaKatie 21:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Would a rangeblock work here?

I seem to have upset someone, they're sending me their best wishes on my talk page and IP talk pages. :-) See [66], [67], [68]. There really is a Wayne Besanko (article deleted as an attack page)but I doubt this is the same person. It's obviously the same as Waynebesanko (talk · contribs) that I did block as a VOA, who among other things was busily vandalising with IPsocks at Proton Saga -- see the article history [69]. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 07:46, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't look to me that a rangeblock is appropriate here. I'll semi-protect the article for a week and see if that helps. --Nlu (talk) 11:59, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I just noticed that the Waynebesanko above isn't the one I first blocked, I blocked Waynesbesanko (talk · contribs). Waynebesanko (talk · contribs) is not blocked but should be. Hm, am I too involved to block a sock calling me a f****** c***? Dougweller (talk) 13:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I dunno, Doug. My assumption of good faith is still intact, tho taxed greatly. My conscience won't allow me to block a user with no contribs. My tinnitus may be interfering with any quacking. Tiderolls 14:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Immediate Admin intervention needed... to Spread Christmas Cheer!

Merry Christmas ANI!!!!!! The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 14:20, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I want to wish a Merry Christmas & A Happy New Year to everyone here on AN/I, I do apologize if I didn't get to your talk page to leave a card for you. To be honest, I only left cards on talk pages of users I knew very well. - Dwayne was here! ♫ 14:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Greetings to all! Does Santa leave presents for editors who´ve been naughty since last Christmas?     ←   ZScarpia   14:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom will be having a word on their behalf, I'm sure... Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 16:31, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Mass deletion campaign by Fram

Over the past couple weeks Fram has submitted over a hundred articles, mostly relating to Guantanamo Bay detainees, the lawsuits they filed and other related articles for deletion. Additionally a couple other users have also submitted some for deletion on the same subjects. The volume is so high that its almost impossible to provide comments on them all without them being deleted first. There also seems to be an edit war going on between Fram andn Geo Swan since many of these articles were created by Geo Swan and after reading several discussions between them I think someone needs to step in. I would also like to state that it "appears" that Fram may be using thier admin powers inappropriately by closing AFD's early and getting taking administrative actions on matter they are closely involved with, such as content disputes with Geo Swan. --Kumioko (talk) 15:09, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Is it being argued that there are 100 of GTMO detainees who are individually considered notable? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:17, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Has Fram closed AFDs early, this seems to be quite a binary issue so I can't see how it can be a "may", can you show examples of such early closes in relation to this dispute? Similarly for the other admin actions, are there any examples or just innuendo? --87.115.32.75 (talk) 18:25, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Wait, you are referring to the userspace articles, correct? Yes, Fram has been nominating a ridiculously large number of Geo Swan's userspace articles, though this has been going on for far longer than just a few weeks. See this search for a partial list. I've just gone looking through a few of them and it seems that Kumioko is correct, the vast number stifles discussion. Furthermore, the exact same users have gone through and voted delete for all of them, which seems to hint at some sort of campaign going on. See here, here, here, here, here, and here. And that's only a rough sampling. As can be seen, the same users keep popping up. They don't even seem to be varying their delete reason either. Silverseren^C 18:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

That's possibly because the articles in question have the same issues. I closed one this morning where references had been attributed to the wrong person conflating two people with similar names. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I saw the title "Mass deletion" and thought this thread probably would be a complaint about a completely justified systemic deletion of inappropriate material. I wasn't wrong. The same users pop up, the same reason gets used, the same outcome prevails on each occasion, because it is correct. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• This AN/I report appears to be fraudulent, unless Kumioko plans to show a single AfD that Fram has closed. In this list of contribs to Wikipedia space, I see many nominations and !votes, but no closes. Geo Swan's userspace is a cesspool that needs to be drained to the ground IMO. If an admin was going through and nuking such pages themselves, then yea, that would be going overboard. But the proper course...bringing them to MfD for discussion...is being followed correctly here. Tarc (talk) 20:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Well for one its extremely difficult to review the merits of an item for deletion when there are groups of 25 or 30, plus individual ones, plus being closed early because "knowone really complained" as he put it. You can see evidence on his talk page, On GeoSwans talk page and on Rich Farmborogh and a couple of others. Also, it woudln't normally be a big deal but it seems that Fram has had ongoing isses with User:GeoSwan for sometime and probably should recuse themselves for a while. Since they have had ongoing edit disputes for some time know, IMO, submitting groups of the users articles for deletion, that have been a part of that dispute, is inappropriate. Also in reply to the inuendo comment I have seen this user doing this for sometime and only mention it now because I have had several articles on my watchlist get deleted before I had time to comment on them all. I would have mentioned it sooner but it seems that more often than not any suggestion that an admin is using their powers inappropriately is met with near instant scorn from other admins. To answer a later comment many of the justifications for deletion are subjective and quite weak citing notibility. Regarding notibility. I will try and locate some of the items I am talking about in the next few minutes. --Kumioko (talk) 20:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
    • Here are some of the issues that I have witnessed that I am referring too. Individually there not a big deal but together they indicicate the possibility of inappropriate behavior. Before someone calls me out for accusing this usere of anything, I am not. That is why I brought it here for "Discussion". I am not certain of anything but I felt that the users activity merited a closer look and review by their peers, thats it. First on the early closing issue I was wrong. I was thinking of another user so I apologize for that and withdraw that statement.
      1. Over the past several weeks has devoted what appears to be an inordinate amount of time and attention towards Rich Farmborough. I understand that Rich popped up on the radar for some unnecessary edits however there is no need to follow them around and scrutinze every edit.
      2. They have had an ongoing edit dispute with Geo Swan over articles relating to Guantanamo bay detainees and relating to the Iraq war. Both of these users have far different opinions of the subject, which is fine, but then to go and submit a large group for deletion after such disputes is IMO inappropriate. Especially after at least one other user asked them to take a step back for a while. Also, if one were to review the articles that this user is submitting for deletion you would find that the vast majority belong to User:Geo Swan. Since it is the same group of users who are submitting and voting for the articles to be deleted, with mostly the same cut and paste justifications each time. Its extremely suspicious even if there is nothing wrong about it. --Kumioko (talk) 21:33, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley civility concerns

William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Disclosure: I've had conflicts with WMC, so I'd ask for someone uninvolved to look at this, and I'm suggesting no particular course of action.

His edit summary calls me a "twat" [70]. Now, I'm thick skinned so personally I'm not bothered with him sounding off: although twat "a vulgar synonym for the human vulva, vagina, or clitoris," isn't one of my chosen self-descriptions, and I'd sooner have a more erudite rhetoric deployed against me. Spartaz, however, is less forgiving and gives him a three hour block.

His response? "Good grief have you nothing useful to do with your time? Oh well, I'll add you to the list". "Fool" is just another bit of poor invective, but the list bit is menacing. He then follows this up by calling his fellow admin "incompetent" [71] and then in another edit summary "Spartaz joins the twat list". (What's this list?)

My main complaint is there's little style to this invective.--Scott Mac 15:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Part of the problem here is that once the admin powers are bestowed there almost never taken away despite incidents like this. Perhaps if this fellow cannot remain civil and show proper decorum when commenting on others talk pages their admin powers should be revoked, at least temporarily. --Kumioko (talk) 15:40, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

(a) WMC has not been an admin for a year and a half; (b) he was already blocked for this specific misdeed. Guettarda (talk) 15:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I note WMC got a huge 3 hour block for such puerility. I think many admins would give longer blocks for such repeated incivility, to be sure. WMC appears to have been warned at least once in the past, so I suggest that the fact he can be blocked is not a huge surprise to him. Collect (talk) 15:41, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Short blocks like this are generally deprecated, as they tend to inflame rather than to give time for reflection. Note Spartaz also violated WP:TPG by restoring a section of WMC's talk page that WMC had recently deleted.[72] This supports the view that Spartaz intended to inflame. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Scott, you seem to have forgotten the rest of the sentence you quoted: "...but is more widely used as a derogatory epithet, especially in British English". Cherry-picking half a quote (see quote mining) to make another editor look bad is inappropriate. Guettarda (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't doubt it is a derogatory epithet (I took that as read) - but it is one because of the sexual overtones - see also wanker and motherfucker.--Scott Mac 15:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

If I use naughty words can I get blocked too? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:58, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes. --Conti|✉ 16:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Poop. Wee wee. Botties. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

"Can", not "will". :) Context is everything. --Conti|✉ 17:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Just an informational point. As far as I can tell WMC is no longer an administrator.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment: short term blocks seem to be popular but they appear to be against WP:Blocking Policy, which says that blocks cannot be punitive and only designed to protect against or deter disruption. I can't understand how a 3-hour block can protect against anything. Either we enforce civility or not. - BorisG (talk) 15:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

See above. Given that the short block was combined with the arbitrary restoration of a section of WMC's talk page there is no doubt that the block was deliberately meant to inflame the situation further. Unfortunately it appears that Spartaz succeeded in his goal and the block has now been extended for a week. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The 3-hour block definitely had the opposite effect in this case: the behavior was repeated shortly thereafter. Tijfo098 (talk) 16:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I've blocked him for a week. Referring to other editors as twats or idiots is unacceptable. Continuing to do so whist blocked for this and then after the block expires shows that short block wasn't effective. If this user continues to behave like this on their talk page whilst blocked I will revoke their ability to edit their talk page. Adambro (talk) 16:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

This seems fairly appropriate. Trebor (talk) 16:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Ongoing civility issues from WMC are a concern. A one week block is certainly appropriate; although I get the feeling we've gone through this before. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 16:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Good block. Being baited is no excuse to respond inappropriately. (It's a reason to scrutinize the behavior of those doing the baiting.) Jehochman ^Talk 16:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Actually I think a week is an over reaction for this. I'm personally not offended, I have been called worse in my time but whatever. Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
  • If WMC undertakes not to repeat the offense, he could be unblocked early. I do not think the block needs to be shortened. He's had many prior incidents of this nature; a strong response is appropriate. Jehochman ^Talk 16:55, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
    • But you criticised me for the first block. Good grief! Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
      • Yes, the three hour block was pointless needling; it got him good and angry so he ended up with a much longer block. That's exactly what we should like to avoid. Jehochman ^Talk 18:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
        • You surely aren't suggesting it would have been better to block him for a week or a month instead? Leaving a polite warning would have achieved what? Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:25, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

In response to Jehochman's re an early unblock, considering this user's block log, I'd be a little sceptical as to the credibility of any statement from him that he has learned to behave more in accordance with our policies and guidelines. I think that there becomes a point where "Sorry, I won't do it again" can't be taken seriously and so protecting Wikipedia from further disruption should take precedence over allowing a user to edit, which is after all a privilege, not a right. Adambro (talk) 17:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Because people with long block logs are manifestly incapable of learning? This is the kind of rhetoric that makes Wikipedia suck. jps (talk) 20:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Actions of Scott MacDonald and Spartaz

Enough. Spartaz explained, Jehochman accepted, there's nothing else do to here. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I believe that both Scott MacDonald (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and Spartaz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) should warned against further trolling or baiting. It is unacceptable to prey upon an upset or vulnerable user the way they have done here. Needling somebody until they explode so you can then block them, or request that they be blocked, is an odious violation of WP:GAME and WP:BATTLE. I'd like to see a confirmation from both Scott and Spartaz that they will try to help users, rather than trip them up. Scott, your post looks like it was designed to cause maximum ruckus. That's a misuse of Wikipedia. I can think of much better ways you could have handled this, and as an administrator, you are expected to be sufficiently clueful to figure things out for yourself. On the other side, I would like to see a confirmation from William that he will not use inappropriate language to describe other editors. Normally it is inappropriate to block a user merely for uncivil language. However, I am aware that William has been warned about this in the past, so he should not be given much slack. On the whole I see fault with both sides of this conflict, and I'd strongly recommend that all parties avoid interacting with each other for some time. Jehochman Talk 16:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC) What on earth are you on about Jehochman? Historically I have supported WMC as a clueful editor who makes a big difference but calling someone a twat was beyond the pale and some response was necessary. Restoring that section was an error caused by an edit conflict and multiple windows. Sometimes you guys read too much into Occam's razor. Spartaz Humbug! 16:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Thank you for your explanation about the edit conflict. I consider the matter of your involvement resolved. Jehochman Talk 16:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Jehochman I'm sure you don't actually understand how supercilious and pompous you sound here otherwise you wouldn't have posted in this way. You need to demonstrate a bit more AGF and fact finding before jumping to conclusions. You really have no locus to judge me or my actions without speaking to me first and doing appropriate due diligence. If I shot from the hip like this at work at the bare minimum I would expect to be reprimanded if not disciplined and I am astonished that you find nothing wrong with your actions. You owe me an apology. Spartaz Humbug! 8:01 pm, Today (UTC+3) Section restored, I'm sure this was an accident. Spartaz Humbug! 8:07 pm, Today (UTC+3) Spartaz, it is rude to demand apologies. Your subsequent responses here reinforce my concern that you were inept at handling this matter. Jehochman Talk 17:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC) And yours show how self-important you are. The difference is that I assume good faith while you were all for hanging and quartering me for an honest mistake before you got the full facts. I know which side I'd rather be on. Spartaz Humbug! 18:21, 24 December 2010 (UTC) I fail to see how I baited him. I hadn't interacted with him in weeks, when he needlessly called me a "twat" in an edit summary. If anything he was trolling and I didn't at that point react to it. I then noticed him upping the game with several attacks on the blocking admin. Since I'd had conflict with WMC in the past, I thought it best to bring it here for neutral people to examine. I didn't ask for a block, just for a review. I also disclosed my previous conflict with him. Sorry, but this is his doing and his alone. I consider this accusation to be scurrilous.--Scott Mac 16:55, 24 December 2010 (UTC) You could have turned the other cheek and walked away. You say you are thick skinned. Being called a naughty name is hardly a personal attack. If he had made a specific accusation about your character, I agree you would have needed to respond. The editor was apparently overwrought. Adding more pressure is unlikely to improve matters, and will likely make them worse. Whenever his block ends, I predict his behavior will be less temperate. WMC is effectively being put on the path to being sitebanned, which is a shame, because he's quite knowledgeable and capable of improving many articles. Jehochman Talk 17:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Scott, on the one hand you make a big deal out of someone using what you think is a naughty word, and yet on the other you say you are willing to make edits on behalf of banned users without disclosing such to the community.[73] Might I gently suggest that you rethink your priorities? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Now you are misrepresenting me in an irrelevant attack. I am willing to disclose anything you want, if you can tell me why it matters. I am certainly not willing to make edits on behalf of banned users, no.--Scott Mac 17:24, 24 December 2010 (UTC) I fully agree with Jehochman and think there should be consequence for all three editor concerned. Currently only one seems to be blocked, and it is the only one who is not currently an admin. That stinks. Hans Adler 16:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Spartaz explained his edit, which appeared inflammatory, but wasn't. I do not see how blocking Scott would help matters. My goal here is to help people understand that we do not want to run off potentially productive contributors. Instead we should try to help them. Jehochman Talk 17:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Ah, sorry, I missed that part and would not have made my comment if I had seen that. Not sure it was on the page before I pressed the edit button. I agree that it's better not to block without good reason, but I am also concerned when admins don't get this and get away with bad blocks. Hans Adler 18:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC) (ec) The word "twat" in the UK is normally understood as a schoolboy word on the same level as "prat". It is not comparable to the words Doc Glasgow Scott Macdonald mentioned; he was probably aware of that. Posting this on ANI had the predictable effect of injecting extra drama into the situation. At this time of year people are normally a little more charitable, even north of the Antonine Wall and west of Offa's Dyke. Mathsci (talk) 17:06, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Depends where you're from as to the strength of the word [74] That said, I'm confused by some of these comments - it's clearly a personal attack and while Scott could turn the other cheek/be charitable, there's no obligation for him to do so. Trebor (talk) 17:25, 24 December 2010 (UTC) I was posting something similar but got caught in an edict conflict. 'Twat's like 'prat' or 'idiot'. I'm not convinced that this terrible, terrible occurrence (on a user's talk page, right?) is serious enough for a one week block. I suspect we've seen worse behavior by some editors go without such a block. --Dougweller (talk) 17:24, 24 December 2010 (UTC) I though 3 hours was plenty. A week seems excessive to me. Spartaz Humbug! 17:35, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Dicdef. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:31, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Forgive me if I'm jumping in where I don't belong. Was just reviewing more on ANI while inspecting a situation above. Regarding, Scott's behavior, I find the initial sentence of his post here to be quite telling: "Disclosure: I've had conflicts with WMC, so I'd ask for someone uninvolved to look at this, and I'm suggesting no particular course of action". It's possible that WMC is on the road to being site-banned. It's also possible that he will reform (however unlikely that might be). Regardless, this discussion of Scott's actions now seem to be provoking Scott. Scott had previous conflicts with WMC and brought the situation here in order to avoid further provoking WMC. Scott could have gone to WMC's talk page and he could have responded perfectly nicely (although, take into account WMC's history). More likely, the situation would've escalated. Most certainly, by posting here, the situation did escalate. Still, given the likelihood that the situation would've escalated by Scott approaching WMC first, and the likelihood that Scott would face similar accusations of mishandling based on conversing with a user he had history with, I'm having trouble seeing what safe option Scott had. If I might speculate, Scott believed that the situation warranted further inspection, and knew he wasn't the one to objectively do so based on history, so he brought it here. Based on the user's prior conduct, he thought direct confrontation with the user would have been risky. He came here, declared his conflict, and let others decide. To take action against a user who has taken actions for which there is a good faith explanation seems a bit too much. Maybe WMC is valuable but he's taken actions for which there isn't a good faith explanation. Scott is a valuable editor/admin as well, and there is a good faith explanation. That's why I propose that this discussion end.--GnoworTC 17:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Rather than posting to ANI, WP:WQA would have been a good alternative. That board is for smoothing out rough conversations. ANI is for requesting blocks. Scott knew or should have known that posting something inflammatory here had a 99.9999% probability of WMC being blocked. "Oh me oh my, I'm not asking for a block on my habitual opponent, but look, he called me something naughty. Whatever shall we do?" Another option would have been to walk away. Bringing the situation to ANI was just about the most provocative choice possible. Jehochman Talk 17:59, 24 December 2010 (UTC) He could've walked away or gone to WP:WQA, and there could have been a number of other users chased off by WMC's actions in the meantime before someone decided to bring it here. So Scott can go to WP:WQA in the future. This may have been provocative, but it was a bad situation from the start, and the situation was initiated by WMC's actions. And there's the good faith explanation for Scott's actions.--GnoworTC 18:09, 24 December 2010 (UTC) I don't agree. He should have gone to WP:WQA. That board is very good at de-escalating things. This one just the opposite. The instructions above tell editors to post to WQA for civility issues. This board is only for requesting administrative actions (blocks). ANI is not for dispute resolution. Scott took his prior disputes with William, using the naughty word as a pretense, and successfully shopped for a block. Well done, except that Wikipedia isn't supposed to be used for that type of sport. Jehochman Talk 18:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Well, it seems we have a disagreement. Again, I'm not saying that Scott definitely acted with good faith, nor that he definitely acted with bad faith. I'm just assuming good faith. I think our disagreement is you don't believe my good faith explanation is plausible. Perhaps this is why I shouldn't have jumped in, as I don't have much( or any) experience over at WP:WQA. If WMC had done that to me, I might've brought it here. I might've been wrong since it's a WQA issue. We do hold admins to higher standards. Given WMC's history, I can see how even an admin might think WQA was an inadequate forum. Even holding an admin to a higher standard, I think the best course forward is just to advise Scott that WQA would be a first stop next time. You've made clear that you think the situation was handled poorly, Jehochman. I neither agree nor disagree. Scott is now aware that handling situations like this in the future might be regarded as "poor-handling", and at that point, I'd agree that action should be taken. What do you wish to see here now?--GnoworTC 18:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC) I wish to see recognition by the community, or even better by the editors involved, that the goal is to save users from trouble, not to help grease the skids. What happened here was a bad result and should be avoided if at all possible. Thank you for taking the time to comment. I appreciate your opinion. Jehochman Talk 18:29, 24 December 2010 (UTC) If this helped the discussion move forward, I'm happy to assist. I apologize if I got anything wrong by arriving late to the game. Scott, do you agree that based on this experience that bringing editors with whom you have a prior negative history to a non-AN/I forum would be more appropriate? (Apologies if this seems forward, trying to close discussion)--GnoworTC 18:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Scott MacDonald reported a deliberate pattern, not an individual instance of bad language. Views may differ whether this was wise, but he definitely has done absolutely nothing wrong. - BorisG (talk) 17:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The List?

Is anyone else concerned about this "twat list" that WMC mentioned? It could have just been said in a sarcastic, though clearly still deprecating, manner, but it could also mean that he is actually keeping a list of the users he dislikes. I think this is almost a bigger issue than the incivility that he has exhibited. Silverseren^C 18:59, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards "figure of speech." Unless he's got an on-wiki list, there's no way to verify any actual list. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Ooo, ooo! If it's on-wiki, let me know. I'll personally send cookies to everyone on the list!--Gnowor^T_C 19:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

WMC has quite a fan base that will support any action he does, including repeatedly calling other users "twats." He's done that to me at least three times, so I'm sure I am on his list, wherever it may be. He has lost all touch with whatever it was that originally led him to contribute here and now seems to delight in adopting a condescending and deeply insulting attitude toward everyone that won't kiss his ass. Unfortunately the application of slap on the wrist blocks and topic bans has only encouraged this nasty unproductive behavior. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

This is a meta-issue, not one that we can solve here. Wikipedia allows and even encourages incompetent people to do its governance and become administrators. People of higher levels of competence (such as, for example, those who have received PhDs in academic subjects) tend to bristle at being subject to the incompetence of those with power. This is why academics don't often rise very high in the fields of business or politics where incompetence is often a selling-point. Those whom WMC has chided are almost always, on the whole, deserving of criticism. Whether they accept the chiding as a form of criticism or hew strictly to the WP:PUNITIVE model of Wikipedia is just another measure of their competence or lack thereof. jps (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

There's an old American adage: "If you're really lousy at what you do, there's always a chance you can work your way into management." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a list, and if you're worried about it, you're definitely on it! jps (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Where is that list? I want to see it. And if I'm not on it, I'm going to feel dissed. :'( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Here's a Jack Benny classic. Go to the 4:20 mark.[75] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:59, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Motion for 3 month Civility Probation for WMC

I propose that WMC be subject to a 3 month civility patrol. In the event that he makes any additional uncivil statements (or statements that appear to be uncivil) he can be immediately block by any uninvolved administrator for growing lengths of time. Basket of Puppies 19:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Basket of Puppies 19:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

1. As there's been controversy about bringing this concern here, I don't believe this is the best approach for WMC to get the message. This is probably appropriate at a future date if he gets brought to WP:WQA. I, like Wikipedia, and am not a crystal ball, so I hesitate to impose further sanctions at this time without additional action by WMC.--Gnowor^T_C 20:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
2. It paints a target on WMC's back. He will get get into trouble quick enough as it is if he steps out of line.... Spartaz ^Humbug! 20:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
3. Administrators can already do this without recourse to this motion. Tijfo098 (talk) 20:31, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
4. "Civility patrol"??? Does that mean that WMC will have to do around patrolling for violations of civility? C.f. my comments about incompetence above. jps (talk) 20:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
5. As per Tijfo098, this seems to me to be what would happen anyway though with some degree of judgement required by an admin as to whether a particular incident merits just a warning or an immediate block. Just like with anyone else, we don't need specific consensus to say they can blocked for incivility and I don't think it is a good idea to say that any uncivil comment can result in a block because I think in some cases a warning might be more appropriate. Adambro (talk) 21:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
6. Let's not encourage civility blocks. Until incivility raises to the level of outright harassment, other responses are better. Jehochman ^Talk 21:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
7. Agree with Jehochman - I'm dealing with real harassment now and this isn't even close. KrakatoaKatie 22:25, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

J. Hartwell Harrison

User:Carmarg4 insists that the lead sentence in J. Hartwell Harrison must be the form that was used by the subject, and the citation be removed for fairly fixable reasons. I have directed him/her to WP:MOSBIO in edit summaries, and even posted a note on his/her talk page, but it has since been removed and ignored, and my edits undone. Since I don't want to start a WP:LAME edit war, I've decided to bring it up here. Thanks. Connormah (talk) 15:35, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted Carmagh4's last edit, protected the page, and posted the following on his talk Please stop removing information. The correct first name is better than an initial, and a cite without an author is better than none at all. I've protected the page pending ANI. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Indefinite full protection seems a little excessive. Was that what you intended? I think Carmarg4 needs to be encouraged to discuss issues like this before we reach ANI. Could the article be unprotected now and we see how things go on? Adambro (talk) 16:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

In my view, we have no source showing Dr. Harrison used the name John himself, and therefore we cannot assume that his first initial stands for John. Also, in my opinion, a cite without an author cannot be evaluated on reliability or verifiability, and is therefore not acceptable.Carmarg4 (talk) 16:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm quite sure tat this isn't a matter for ANI - it's more a content dispute. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 16:58, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

This is definitely a content dispute - a warning to the editor and an instruction to discuss the matter on talk before making any more reverts would have been appropriate. Changing the page to your preferred version and then fully protecting it is not. Trebor (talk) 17:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

It's in the citation I added - I can look for an author, but I'm not sure why you just couldn't look - it seems to be a book that it's from, which should be reliable.. Connormah (talk) 18:45, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

If you scroll up of the PDF, you can clearly see 6 authors listed - S. P. Desai, M. S. Desai, D. N. Wood,

R. Maddi, S. Leeson and N. L. Tilney. Connormah (talk) 18:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Hoaxes

Resolved

 – Antandrus has wielded the hammer and all edits have been checked. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 18:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi, ClemmingsEnd (talk · contribs) needs an indef block and all edits removed as they are blatant hoaxes. They are very elaborate, but links provided as "references" go nowhere and are there purely to deceive. Thanks, AD 17:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Legolas2186

I'm here to report User:Legolas2186 for a variety of things. In Talk:Lady_Gaga#Not_Full_Italian_American. he has just twice reverted me, deleting a post I have made to a thread which he claims to be archived.[76][77] This thread acquired its archived appearance a few days ago at the end of an edit war, after Legolas first unilaterally and without consensus moved the entire thing to the latest archive,[78][79] and then was followed by User:Ianmacm, who after first collapsing the entire thread and being reverted by me then gave it its present appearance.[80][81] I'm not here to report Ian because he is obviously just a new follower.

This behavior of Legolas at the talk page followed a warning I received for getting angry with him in the same thread, after he called my contributions "useless" and "irrelevant", for which see the collapsed portion section under the subsection Talk:Lady_Gaga#up. So obviously he felt encouraged and still feels he is in some special position. But if you look at User_talk:Ianmacm#Talk:Lady_Gaga, what I have suspected all along is admitted: Legolas has had a problem with me ever since Talk:Lady_Gaga/Archive_9#Gays.3F a number of months ago, where he acted wildly, even cursing, but was not disciplined. In that thread at Ian's talk page I also warn them not to refactor or archive without consent/consensus again, or I might report it here. Now it has become outright removal.

The allegations of original research made by Legolas (and much later followed by Ian) in Talk:Lady_Gaga#Not_Full_Italian_American. are in my view a form of attack disguised as vigilance, because so far they have been unspecific. My long defense of the contents of the thread, which I did not start, can be found posted at the bottom of Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive658#User:DinDraithou_again. Make sure to read the interesting posts made by Legolas above it. I don't know the terminology but I believe we have a case of a user who considers Lady Gaga and related articles his special "realm". Certainly this is an able polisher and technical contributor, but that doesn't mean this user gets to lord it over a talk page like this. DinDraithou (talk) 17:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Good lord. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 17:55, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, I am not sockpuppetting or backing up Legolas as a friend. The section Talk:Lady_Gaga#Not_Full_Italian_American was archived, because by DinDraithou's own admission, it contained material that was unlikely to be added to Lady Gaga. This article is not a complete genealogy of the Bissett family, and some of the sources (eg rootsweb.ancestry.com or blogspot are not reliable. This, combined with the ongoing feuding and incivility, made this section a dead duck. Please let's not drag this one out any further.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget Daily Star the shittiest paper ever. Lol. On a serious note, concerned admins might wanna take a look at the homophobic comments at Talk:Lady_Gaga/Archive_9#Gays.3F , which were opposed by editors. And about this certain talk page, oh yeah, I had asked a number of times not to misuse the talk page as a repository of information for a different article and use a sandbox instead, but oh well. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 18:17, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

We're still talking about what's on the talk page. In response to Ian, I'm hardly using these sources in the article itself, but they do in fact refer to published sources, if you check. So contending that they're unreliable is putting up a straw man in more ways than one. Furthermore, Ian's first action was not to archive the thread like Legolas had attempted, but to collapse it all in the current talk page and relable the contents "Starts off well enough, but descends into original research and incivility".[82] This strongly suggests he was following Legolas. DinDraithou (talk) 19:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

DinDraithou has already been asked to assume good faith on this. I have tried to give the thread Talk:Lady_Gaga#Not_Full_Italian_American an early bath, because its potential for improving Lady Gaga is practically zero. Please don't imply that things have been done simply to please Legolas.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 22:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Era warring

Earlier today I found a series of edits by Scoobertjoo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) at Hanukkah in which he changed the era style from BCE/CE to BC/AD first diff, second diff, third diff. I checked his contributions and found a few other examples of the same thing, so I reverted them all. He responded by reverting all my changes to his preferred era style (diffs:Hanukkah, Begging the question,Yemenite Jews, Rainbow, Humanism) and leaving this unhelpful dissertation on my talk page explaining why he's right and the guideline is wrong. I've dealt with this kind of disruptive editor before and nothing ever convinces them to stop, short of an indefinite block only to be lifted upon a promise to stop changing era styles (which they never agree to). --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 19:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I have left a note on the user's talk page. Steven, there is no reason to assume this person is going to behave a certain way, or to call them disruptive right out of the gate. You need to assume good faith. The person thinks they are doing us a favour, and they have not read our style guidelines. Regards, --Diannaa ^(Talk) 19:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Changing BCE/CE to BC/AD on articles connectred with Judaism does not strike me as a "good-faith" activity. Those changes should be reverted, if they haven't been already, and if he keeps it up, throw him to the wiki-lions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree w/Baseball, above.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I also note that his user ID looks like a subtle slam at Jews; and that he's got a peculiar editing history, of which spot-checking indicates no useful edits at all. He started this BC/BCE thing in the fall of 2009 or so, so he's obviously come to wikipedia with an agenda, and might well also be a sock of other editor(s) who've been on this rant in the past. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I am pretty sure all the changes got reverted. You make some good points, and the editor should be watched. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 20:15, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Saying that he hasn't read our style guidelines and is trying to help us goes far beyond any reasonable assumption of good faith, since he made that post on my talk page and reverted back to his preferred era style after I pointed out the guideline to him. Please take time to look into the history of a notice before replying. As I said, I've dealt with this kind of problem before, and I've only ever seen one course of action that resolves it. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 20:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

His username is a semi-subtle way of saying "Dog Jew", which is unacceptable, and I've reported him to WP:UAA for it. As I said there, I think he needs to be not only indef'd, but also SPI swept for socks. But one thing at a time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:20, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Steven, Baseball, and Epee. The editor in question is using WP as a battleground and self-righteously showing no consideration for other perspectives. The WP policies are designed to keep such behavior in check. This looks like a clear case where strong sanctions should be applied. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

May I also point out that the rant he posted on my talk page is copy and pasted word for word from this article on an online encyclopedia project for right-wing Christian home-schooled middle schoolers. Checking his edit history will also show that he prefers American spellings over British (a favored hobbyhorse of the Schlafly crowd) on an article about Formula One racing. Nope, nothing disruptive about this guy, it's just a perfectly innocent attempt to improve the encyclopedia. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 20:28, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I had noticed his change from "tyres" to "tires" just to Americanize it for no good reason. He also posted a number of editorial remarks about cars, with no supporting source, but that's minor stuff. His first time messing with the BC/BCE thing came in October of 2009,[83] and he's only edited sporadically, at least under that ID. Since that rant is a blind copy-and-paste, maybe its contents could be looked for in other places in wikipedia? In any case, thanks to his editing topics, we've got a pretty good idea where he lives. If he won't stop, maybe I should send my cousin Vito up the Hudson, to "explain" a few things to that boy. >:) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Probably not necessary, Bugs, but I'll say one more thing. Dianaa, I just noticed that your account was only registered in October of 2009, so you may not be familiar with the history behind this. There was once a HUGE battle on Wikipedia about this very topic. It went on for weeks (if not months) and the only way anyone could find to stop it was to declare a cease-fire, leave all existing era styles as they were and deal harshly with any cease-fire violations. This whole thing was a large part of the reason Andy Schlafly and his allies decided to take their marbles and start Conservapedia in the first place (that and American v. British spellings - I know, lame). Anyway, the basic policy (as far as I understand it) is that to keep this kind of thing from breaking out again, it's necessary to come down hard on anyone who tries to reignite it. Suffice to say the copy-paste from Conservapedia and the nature of the edit-warring make it pretty clear to me where this guy comes from and what he's trying to do.

But, you're the admin. I trust your judgment. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 20:45, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The subject of this inquiry has now been escorted away by the Indef Angel. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, guys; good catch. I guess I was being a little naive, as the battle of which you speak was before my time. Regards, --Diannaa ^(Talk) 21:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

There's no harm in assuming good faith. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:29, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Lanternix

A few days ago I opened a complaint here about Lanternix (talk · contribs) and their continual and repeated edit-warring and use of unreliable sources (archived here). In that thread Vassyana (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) wrote further incidents of edit warring should be rewarded with week-long plus blocks and/or month-long plus topic bans. Since then, Lanternix has continued to edit war at a number of articles, and has repeatedly used unreliable sources. In the article Arab Christians and Arabic-speaking Christians, Lanternix has continued the edit-war he had been carrying on with another user. Reverts since the prior ANI are [84], [85], [86], [87]. At the article Criticism of Muhammad, Lanternix has revert-warred to maintain unreliable sources, rvs [88], [89] (that reverted the prior 2 edits), [90], [91]. Included in the "references" Lanternix added is the website answering-islam which has been called a hate site by more than a few people. On Egypt Lanternix has also been edit-warring to maintain a collection of unreliable sources and op-eds and ignoring the complaints of several users on the talk page. The latest reverts are [92], [93] and [94]. Finally, on the talk page for Egypt, a sock of a banned user had made a comment. I, as is common practice and in keeping with WP:BAN, struck those comments. Lanternix has edit-warred to remove the strike-through, effectively meat-puppeting for a banned user. The reverts are [95], [96], [97]. Within the last week, after being given a "final" warning, the user has continued to edit-war and has even violated the 3RR yet again. A very long block of this user is long overdue, and I request that it finally be made. nableezy - 21:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• I became aware of User:Lanternix on a WP:AE request about Nableezy, where Lanternix removed all Egyptians from list of Arabs [98]. Lanternix appears to be the garden variety of nationalistic/ethnicity-focused edit-warring POV pusher who spares no bullets [99] in his WP:BATTLE. Someone Wikipedia could well do without. Tijfo098 (talk) 21:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by User:Lanternix

User:Nableezy continues their edit warring on this site, either expecting everyone to agree with them, or going around filing complaints about them. Of note, the user was blocked for 72 hours, only recently, for edit warring with other users. The user's block history for edit warring speaks for itself.

Recently, User:Nableezy has been insisting to removed a very relevant section from the article Egypt, in accordance with this user's general trend of downplaying any relevant information pertinent to minorities in the Arab World and Israel. In fact, User:Nableezy is currently topic-banned for a few months from all articles, discussions, and other content within the area of the Arab-Israeli conflict, as defined in WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict, and I believe this includes Egypt. The user has been repeatedly violating this ban, and a complaint was recently filed against them because of this. No action has been taken yet with regards to this complaint.

Regarding the user's recent complaints about my edits on Egypt, please refer to the page's Talk Page, where you will find that multiple users have been arguing against the reverts that User:Nableezy insists on instating. After the user called all the references provided unreliable, we (myself as well as other users) proceeded to add what we believe are definitely reliable sources including CNN, BBC, der Spiegel, the Associated Press, ABC News etc. Unfortunately, User:Nableezy continued to insist that these sources were unreliable, and as a result went ahead today - in spite of all the discussion on the talk page - and again removed the entirety of the disputed section, including all of the aforementioned sources added on the talk page by multiple users. Admin Vassyana was made aware of this problem on their Talk Page#Egypt.

The other pages on which User:Nableezy is accusing me of edit warring do not even deserve a reply. On Arab Christians and Arabic-speaking Christians, this is clearly reversion of vandalism from a single user whose contributions are EXCLUSIVELY reverts of my edits on the same page (the user refused to even participate to my complaints about their edits on the Talk Page). Moreover, my edits on Criticism of Muhammed are hardly an edit war, as can be seen from my contributions to the article's Talk Page. On neither of these pages did I, at any time, violate the 3RR rule.

I have had it with User:Nableezy making the environment on Wikipedia hostile for a number of users. I believe it's about time for them to be undergo a long-term bloc (longer than just 72 hours this time, since this clearly did not change their attitude). I will be filing a complaint about the user shortly with the evidence provided above. --λⲁⲛτερⲛιξ^[talk] 21:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

You realize the block you reference was not related to edit-warring and was lifted by the blocking admin as a "fuck up" (his words) on his part (see here)? This is typical of the above, bogus assertions made that any person that looks at will quickly see are false. nableezy - 22:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Nableezy

User:Nableezy continues their edit warring on this site, either expecting everyone to agree with them, or going around filing complaints about them. Of note, the user [ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nableezy&action=historysubmit&diff=400938856&oldid=400690596 was blocked for 72 hours], only recently, for edit warring with other users. The user's block history for edit warring speaks for itself.

Recently, User:Nableezy has been insisting to removed a very relevant section from the article Egypt, in accordance with this user's general trend of downplaying any relevant information pertinent to minorities in the Arab World and Israel. In fact, User:Nableezy is currently topic-banned for a few months from all articles, discussions, and other content within the area of the Arab-Israeli conflict, as defined in WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict, and I believe this includes Egypt. The user has been repeatedly violating this ban, and a complaint was recently filed against them because of this. No action has been taken yet with regards to this complaint.

On the Talk Page of Egypt, multiple users have been arguing against the reverts that User:Nableezy insists on instating. After the user called all the references provided unreliable, we (myself as well as other users) proceeded to add what we believe are definitely reliable sources including CNN, BBC, der Spiegel, the Associated Press, ABC News etc. Unfortunately, User:Nableezy continued to insist that these sources were unreliable, and as a result went ahead today - in spite of all the discussion on the talk page - and again removed the entirety of the disputed section, including all of the aforementioned sources added on the talk page by multiple users. Admin Vassyana was made aware of this problem on their Talk Page.

I have had it with User:Nableezy making the environment on Wikipedia hostile for a number of users. I believe it's about time for them to be undergo a long-term bloc (longer than just 72 hours this time, since this clearly did not change their attitude). I will be filing a complaint about the user shortly with the evidence provided above. --λⲁⲛτερⲛιξ^[talk] 21:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

If somebody would like me to respond to this nonsense I will be happy to do so. But as it was simply copied and pasted from the above Id rather not do it in two places. nableezy - 22:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You forgot to say that the editor who filed that complaint against Nableezy, User:mbz1, was indef blocked for filing other frivolous complaints (see ANI thread above). Besides, asking that Nableezy be punished here while the AE thread is still open appears to be a form of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I did not see anything about User:mbz1 being blocked for a different reason, but regardless, I do not see how this pertains to Nableezy's repeated violations. Besides, you can call it WP:FORUMSHOPPING or not, this has no bearing on the facts provided. --λⲁⲛτερⲛιξ^[talk] 22:13, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Forum shopping isnt quite right, bad faith retaliation is a much better description of Lanternix's actions. This is something those of us familiar with this user have seen time and time again (see for example this, which an uninvolved admin said was "clearly filed in retaliation" for this). No worries though, hopefully the section above will deal with it. nableezy - 22:15, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Nableezy did not remove [100] the entire section as you claim, Lanternix. He removed some over-the-top unencyclopedic language from opinion pieces which are stated as fact in Wikipedia (usually a no-no per WP:NPOV), while leaving the more factual stuff from WP:RS in place. "Christian Copts are under severe pressure and siege, and usually live in fear for their lives" (in Egypt) reads like a fear- or sympathy-mongering op-ed not a Wikipedia article. I don't see why this edit requires admins to intervene. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

However it is done, having the discussion as to assertions w/regard to Nab's behavior in one place to the extent possible, as Nab suggests, does seem to be the better approach.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:20, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I quote myself when I say: "in spite of all the discussion on the talk page - and again removed the entirety of the disputed section, including all of the aforementioned sources added on the talk page by multiple users." Please note the word disputed. Yes, he/she again removed the entirety of the section disputed on the talk page, along with all its references. You cannot say that he/she removed "over-the-top unencyclopedic language", he/she removed entire paragraphs as can be seen! --λⲁⲛτερⲛιξ^[talk] 22:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I hereby copy+paste the entire section removed by Nableezy, to respond to Tijfo098's claims that the user removed "over-the-top unencyclopedic language from opinion pieces which are stated as fact in Wikipedia"!!! Please note all the CNN, BBC, der Spiegel, Associated Press, ABC News and other references in the section repeatedly removed by the accused user:

“ Coptic Christians are minimally represented in law enforcement, state security and public office, and are being discriminated against in the workforce on the basis of their religion. The Coptic community, as well as several human rights activists and intellectuals, maintain that the number of Christians occupying Government posts is not proportional to the number of Copts in Egypt. They are also the victims of discriminatory religious laws, anti-Christian judges, and anti-Christian state police. Anti-Christian laws include laws governing repairing old churches or constructing new ones, which are usually impossible tasks, requiring presidential permission to build a new church, and a governor’s permission to renovate even the bathroom in an already-built church. Anti-Christian judges tend to "legislate from the bench". An example includes an Egyptian court's refusal to grant Muslim Egyptians who convert to Christianity identity cards that display their new religion. On the other hand, converting to Islam does not even require going to court. Copts are denied equal opportunities in recruitment and promotion. Very few are appointed to key positions in the government, and political parties almost never choose Coptic candidates for parliamentary positions. In addition, enrollment of Copts in police academies and military schools is heavily restricted. Along the same lines, very few Copts are granted positions as school teachers or university professors. ”

“ Moreover, Copts are usually on the receiving end of anti-Christian hate crimes, the number of which has been rising since the 1970s. Since Mubarak took office in 1981, more than 1,500 violent attacks against Copts left thousands of Christians killed and injured. The violent anti-Christian attacks in Upper Egypt during the 1990s forced thousands of Copts to flee to larger cities in Egypt or to immigrate; a form of unrecognized ethnic cleansing. The last 10 years witnessed a dramatic increase in the scale of anti-Christian hate crimes, including a number of massacres such as the 2001 Kosheh massacre and the 2010 Nag Hammadi massacre. Copts also complain that the Egyptian government and the Egyptian judicial system are doing little to punish such attacks on the Coptic community, failing to prosecute the criminals, and thus leading to further persecution of the Copts. For instance, all the criminals responsible for the 2001 killing of 21 Copts in Kosheh, most of whom were children and women, were set free by court oder. Minor Coptic girls are particularly targeted by abduction and forced Islamization by fundamentalist Islamic groups. ”