Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

Welcome — post issues of interest to administrators.

For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you are new, try the Wikipedia:Teahouse instead. Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead use Wikipedia:Requests for oversight. For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent. Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here. Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. If opening a close appeal, use {{RfC closure review}} When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search) Start a new discussion

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You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 38 as Wikipedia:Closure requests/Archive 37 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Wikipedia discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

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Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

Technical instructions for closers

Please append {{Doing}} to the discussion's entry you are closing so that no one duplicates your effort. When finished, replace it with {{Close}} or {{Done}} and an optional note, and consider sending a {{Ping}} to the editor who placed the request. Where a formal closure is not needed, reply with {{Not done}}. After addressing a request, please mark the {{Initiated}} template with |done=yes. ClueBot III will automatically archive requests marked with {{Already done}}, {{Close}}, {{Done}} {{Not done}}, and {{Resolved}}.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Wikipedia:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
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• Wikipedia:Proposed mergers/Log
• Wikipedia:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

ANI thread concerning Yasuke

(Initiated 39 days ago on 2 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1162 § Talk: Yasuke has on-going issues has continued to grow, including significant portions of content discussion (especially since Talk:Yasuke was ec-protected) and accusations of BLP violations, among other problems. Could probably be handled one sub-discussion at a time. --JBL (talk) 17:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Closure review of The Telegraph RfC

(Initiated 33 days ago on 9 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard § RfC closure review request at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues's discussion seems to have died down. Hopefully I've put this in the correct section. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is a huge headache. I'll keep working on it as I have time, but if somebody else wants to close this before I do, I won't complain. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 02:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

you could put the draft on the discusssions about discussions page, WP:DfD? Tom B (talk) 09:08, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Nah, I know what the result should be, I just need to write an explanatory statement. That will happen this weekend, Lord willing. Thanks for the resource though, I had no idea that existed. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:54, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Compassionate727. I want to make sure this is still on your radar. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and it's very nearly done. There's no reason I shouldn't finish it tomorrow, if not tonight. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

{{Done}}. I fear I'm going to ruffle some feathers with that, but I do believe it both the correct outcome and the most inoffensive one. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

...why do you think the most inoffensive option is to re-close the original RFC to Option 1? What's your evidence that was the consensus of that original RFC? Loki (talk) 23:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

 Undone per WP:BADNAC#2 by another user. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The close has since been rescinded by the closer, so is very much due for closing again. CNC (talk) 13:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

RFA2024, Phase II discussions

Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:

• (Initiated 101 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
• (Initiated 98 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
• (Initiated 98 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA

Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Bumping this as an important discussion very much in need of and very much overdue for a formal closure. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... designated RfA monitors (at least in part). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done designated RfA monitors. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

For recall, @Sirdog: had attempted a close of one section, and then self-reverted. Just in case a future closer finds this helpful. Soni (talk) 07:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping. For what it's worth, I think that close was an accurate assessment of that single section's consensus, so hopefully I make someone's day easier down the line. Happy to answer questions from any editor about it. —Sirdog (talk) 07:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I also think closing some sections at a time is pretty acceptable, especially given we have only been waiting 2+ months for them. I also have strong opinions on 'involved experienced editors' narrowing down a closer's scope just because they speak strongly enough on how they think it should be closed. But I am Capital-I involved too, so shall wait until someone takes these up. Soni (talk) 08:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Not many people agreed with the concerns expressed on article talk about closing section by section. If a closer can't find consensus because the discussion is FUBAR, they can make that determination. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Gaza genocide#RfC on the inclusion on the BU Today article in the lede

(Initiated 50 days ago on 22 June 2024) nableezy - 17:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Titles of European monarchs

(Initiated 49 days ago on 22 June 2024) - I thank the Wikipedia community for being so willing to discuss this topic very extensively. Because 30 days have passed and requested moves in this topic area are already being opened (For reference, a diff of most recent edit to the conversation in question), I would encourage an uninvolved editor to determine if this discussion is ready for closure. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

(Also, apologies if I have done something incorrectly. This is my first time filing such a request.) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This is dragging on ad nauseam. I suggest an admin closes this, possibly with the conclusion that there is no consensus to change. PatGallacher (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Anti-Defamation League#RfC: Wikipedia reliability section

(Initiated 41 days ago on 30 June 2024) - Note: Part of the article and talk page are considered to be a contentious topic, including this RfC. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 447#Reliability_of_Thomas_Lockley

(Initiated 39 days ago on 2 July 2024) - The original topic (Lockley's book, "African Samurai: The True Story of Yasuke, a Legendary Black Warrior in Feudal Japan") has not been the focus of discussion since the first few days of the RFC when it seemed to reach a concensus. The book in question is no longer cited by the Yasuke page and has been replaced by several other sources of higher quality. Since then the subject of the RSN has shifted to an extension of Talk:Yasuke and has seen many SPA one post accounts hijack the discussion on the source to commit BLP violations towards Thomas Lockley almost exclusively citing Twitter. Given that the general discussion that was occuring has shifted back to [Talk:Yasuke] as well as the continued uptick in SPA's committing NOTHERE and BLP violations on the RSN, as well as the source in question is no longer being used - I think closure is reasonable. Relm (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Hermann_Göring#Rfc_for_Herman_Göring's_Lede_Image_(2024)

(Initiated 38 days ago on 4 July 2024) Discussion is ready to be closed. Nemov (talk) 01:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity#Nikola_Tesla_birthplace_,_review_after_10_years

(Initiated 37 days ago on 5 July 2024) This is a contentious issue, so I would like to ask for an uninvolved editor to properly close. Please have consideration to each argument and provide an explanation how each argument and source was considered. People have strong opinions on this issue so please take consideration if their statements and claims are accompanied by quotes from sources and whether WP guidelines are followed. We need to resolve this question based on sources and not opinions, since it was discussed multiple times over the years. Trimpops2 (talk) 23:46, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:La France Insoumise#RfC: How should the political position of La France Insoumise be described?

(Initiated 34 days ago on 7 July 2024) Discussion has already died down and the 30 days have elapsed. Uninvolved closure is requested. Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election#RfC: Inclusion of parties in the Infobox

(Initiated 34 days ago on 8 July 2024). Ready for closing, last !vote was 12 July by looks of it. CNC (talk) 16:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Proposal to revise CSD R3

(Initiated 33 days ago on 9 July 2024) Poster withdrew the RfC but due to the language used, I think a summary by an WP:UNINVOLVED editor would be preferable. Nickps (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Hosni_Mubarak#Rfc_for_lede_image_for_Hosni_Mubarak

(Initiated 31 days ago on 10 July 2024) This is ready to close. Nemov (talk) 19:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Total
CfD	0	0	3	25	28
TfD	0	0	3	0	3
MfD	0	0	2	1	3
FfD	0	0	0	3	3
RfD	0	0	75	17	92
AfD	0	0	0	0	0

Other types of closing requests

Talk:There was no such thing as Palestinians#Merge to Golda Meir?

(Initiated 255 days ago on 29 November 2023) Discussion started 29 November 2023. Last comment 25 July 2024. TarnishedPath^talk 00:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Requested_move_24_May_2024

(Initiated 78 days ago on 24 May 2024) Originally closed 3 June 2024, relisted following move review on 17 June 2024 (34 days ago). Last comment was only 2 days ago, but comments have been trickling in pretty slowly for weeks. Likely requires a decently experienced closer. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 01:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive 194#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

(Initiated 75 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Just checking, would you like someone else to help with this? Soni (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 13:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 73 days ago on 30 May 2024) Contentious merge discussion requiring uninvolved closer. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 Nuseirat_rescue operation#Proposed_merge_of_Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre_into_2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation

(Initiated 63 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions#Split proposal

(Initiated 34 days ago on 8 July 2024) – Editors would feel more comfortable if an uninvolved closer provided a clear statement about whether a consensus to WP:SPLIT exists, and (if so) whether to split this list into two or three lists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Mass moving of Ukrainian toponyms

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Earlier this year, the Ukrainian parliament has passed a law banning toponyms of Communist origin. Several days ago, it approved (and in some cases not approved) lists of localities to be renamed. Because of that, we have many Ukrainian users, some of them being established editors, but others just being random lurkers, renaming a large amount of articles. Some of the moves went smoothly, but some met resistance, for example, I had to fully protect Dnipropetrovsk. In most cases (in contrast to Dnipropetrovsk) renaming is uncontroversial, however, the edits are often substandard (an example) and almost always premature (i.e. a new name has been proposed but not yet legally adopted). Since many of us will have to deal with this, I suggest the following strategy:

• All changes should be sourced. If there are doubts as whether a source is reliable, I am willing to provide advise;
• Old names should be kept as historical, not just removed;
• No nationalist cruft should be added and no useful info should be removed (for example, if a Russian name was in an article, it should stay there and not just get removed);
• They should be uncontroversial. If users in good standing object, the discussion should start at the talk page. All moves of Crimean toponyms are likely to be controversial.

I suggest that if a move with subsequent editing does not satisfy the above guideline, the user should be notified at their talk page, and if they are unwilling to correct, their contribution should be reverted.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:19, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Good idea; further, I'd be willing to watchlist some articles (if a list of articles which might be editid is feasible at all); in additon, pending-changes level 1 protection might be appropriate to stop the worst "onslaught" of anonymous or newly-created users. Lectonar (talk) 11:32, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Because the Ukrainian parliament is not English usage, we need to enforce our naming conventions by reverting all moves of this sort unless solid evidence can be shown that English usage has changed. This is why Kyiv is already a protected redirect, for example, because of nationalistic attempts to use the Ukrainian-derived version that's nowhere near as common in English as is the Russian-derived Kiev. Nyttend (talk) 12:48, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Nyttend. All new Ukrainian names should be redirects to the old names until standard English usage can be shown ti have started using the new names. Protection may be used as necessary to enforce this, as we do with all other issues. And yes, when we do move the articles to the new Ukrainian names, we should keep the old names as redirects. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:14, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Pinging for safety @TaivoLinguist:. I guess most of the names just have no common English usage, and these moves should pretty much be uncontroversial, since we just adopt WP:UKR romanization. The only move so far which created a serious turmoil was Dnipropetrovsk, and there is a heated discussion at the talk page. However, since the Rada also renamed some localities Ukraine does not control - in Crimea and in the separatist areas of Luhansk and Donetsk Oblasts - I can imagine some issues there as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I see Nyttend's point, but agree with Ymblanter that most names are outside English usage so I see little point in waiting for English usage to emerge; I'm guessing 99% of locations in Ukraine are not mentioned often enough for there to be an English usage. For the few exceptions (Kiev, Odessa etc.), we should of course continue with the established English usage. For all other localities, I don't see a problem in them being moved. Jeppiz (talk) 14:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Plenty of detailed maps of Ukraine have been printed in English-language publications, and those will demonstrate established English usage. Of course, if they disagree with each other, that will demonstrate the absence of establishment. Nyttend (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Ok, so I see no reason to wait for English maps to be printed for Ukraine. If the locality is neither a major city nor a place that is often mentioned in English media, I'd say there is no problem in moving it. Jeppiz (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. For many years, lots of atlases have been printed that depict localities in Ukraine; you don't have to wait. Just visit your local library if you don't already own such an atlas. Nyttend (talk) 19:06, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

University of Law

The article University of Law seems to contain suspiciously WP:Advert-like material, including a few dubious claims. I attempted to place an advert tag, however this was removed. I may be wrong about this article but if anyone has the time to investigate it that would be much appreciated. Reaganomics88 (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

@Reaganomics88: I have replaced it as "well sourced" is not a valid reason for removing that tag. I encourage you to post on the talk page of the article and explain why the article reads like an advert (I agree it does lean that way). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:26, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I and another admin have been working on it--see edit history and talk p. DGG ( talk ) 18:47, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Oluwa2Chainz: collateral damage from Wikicology?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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As an ArbCom clerk, I hardblocked Wikicology as part of closing his case. Yamla (talk · contribs) unblocked Oluwa2Chainz (talk · contribs), who had been autoblocked as a result of the Wikicology block (is the IP-address pool that small in Nigeria?), and Oluwa2Chainz is now requesting IPBE. I'm trying to AGF, but O2C began editing the day before Wikicology was blocked and I'm not familiar enough with Wikicology's socking to grant WP:IPBE without input from someone who is. Thanks and all the best, Miniapolis 13:45, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't see what you mean: Oluwa2Chainz's first edit was 12 May 2015, not 12 May 2016 (the day before Wikicology's block). BethNaught (talk) 13:49, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

And has 11,000 edits... _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 13:52, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Given how their talk page history isn't filled with complaints I am thinking it is probably someone different. I know that in Kenya every IP I tried to use was blocked on a lot of websites, I don't think they have a lot of IPs. HighInBC 13:55, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Trout duly noted, and I'll grant the IPBE. Thanks and all the best, Miniapolis 14:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cat on Commons

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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OK, this may not be the best place to ask but it's driving me crazy. Another user asked for somebody to create a Commons category titled National Cutting Horse Association Hall of Fame. This user uploads lots of great photos, so I created the page on Commons (which I've done before). However, I forgot to make it a category page.😝 Can somebody please get over there and make the page into a category so some photos can be uploaded to it? I would ask on Commons but they don't have a lot of English speakers in their help page. It won't give me the page move tab there, either. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 19:03, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

@White Arabian Filly:  Done Mdann52 (talk) 19:43, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm sorry I messed it up in the first place. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:39, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

License notice template

Since admins do all the image deletion, I'd appreciate admin opinions at WP:VPM#Old licenses. Nyttend (talk) 22:21, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

New article assistance

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I just created an article, and damned if I didn't forget to capitalize the title; I'd like to think that I typed "A Blade of Grass (Penny Dreadful episode)", but clearly, I fonked it up. I don't know how to fix that after the article is created. Can I get a little help? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:21, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Done. See the "move" tab at the top of every page; that's all you need. Basic instructions at Help:How to move a page with additional details at WP:MOVE. Nyttend (talk) 03:09, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Wow, both instructions on how to fix the problem and the prac-ap of it being done. Thanks, Nyttend! - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:54, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jennyriarchi

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Could someone please block this user, who has gone well over WP:3RR at Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal today without listening to any warnings.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:44, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Blocked by Bbb23 for 1 week for 3RR and WP:NPA violations. I've also temporarily protected the article, just in case. --Kinu ^t/_c 19:22, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by sfarney

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

sfarney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 08:25, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

You are prohibited from (i) from editing articles related to Scientology or Scientologists, broadly defined, as well as the respective article talk pages and (ii) from participating in any Wikipedia process relating to those articles, including as examples but not limited to, articles for deletion, reliable sources noticeboard, administrators' noticeboard and so forth, for a period of one year.[1]

Administrator imposing the sanction

The Wordsmith (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by sfarney

Prioryman (talk · contribs) filed the May 31 AE request that resulted in the ban. Immediately after filing the AE request, Prioryman selected and canvassed The Wordsmith (talk · contribs) to participate.[2][3]

The Wordsmith is not uninvolved as is required by WP, but has more or less admitted s/he is an ex-member of the cult and boasted about her/his wealth of primary source materials s/he owns. ("I have seen many "confidential" internal Scientology documents, own the Red Volumes, Green Volumes and (Incomplete) Blue Volumes, and have listened to many tapes, including some extremely rare and confidential ones. I also have much of the content of the unpublished OT IX and X levels (fascinating stuff). It is safe to say that I'm probably the most well-versed Wikipedian on the topic of Scientology, moreso than most actual Scientologists. I have listened to the Exteriorization and Rudements tapes, and can confirm that Prioryman's edits accurately reflect their content. I don't have any copies of The Auditor, but I probably know someone who does and could look into it. I recommend no sanction against Prioryman, and at a minimum an admonishment to the filing editor. "Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Prioryman) The text of that statement makes clear that The Wordsmith was not judging the situation on WP policies and agendas, but on a scale of Scientology/anti-Scientology.

The Wordsmith accused me of being a Single Purpose Account, but any dispassionate review of my edit history shows that I cover a wide variety of topics with strong edit histories on each, from technology to culture, science to the Bible, and much in between. I have been an editor here since 2012, and I did not touch a Scientology article until 2015.

The May 31 AE request was quite obviously a retaliation for my ArbComm request on May 25 against Prioryman. The Wordsmith participated in that action too, and immediately requested a Boomerang, without citing to any violations of WP policy. Notably, The Wordsmith had no comment on the violations of WP editorial conduct and policy that I was seeking to correct in that request.

Prioryman also canvassed another administrator, Dennis Brown (talk · contribs), to his ArbComm request with the same text.[4] That administrator also presided over my May 25 AE request against Prioryman, watched Prioryman WP:PA attack me, acknowledge that I had been attacked, then closed the hearing by telling me to be nicer in discussions and ask questions instead of insisting on WP policy. Eh?? Dennis Brown also showed for the May 30 AE request and spoke against me.

This smacks of improper canvassing of administrators. Nobody can be uninvolved (as required by WP policy) if they are selected by one party and summoned to the bench. And any administrator who comes when summoned to a particular subject is not uninvolved.

The article R2-45 is a violation of WP:FRINGE. Nothing permits an editor to make highly controversial claims with weak and primary sources. As I have argued extensively in the talk page, one highly controversial claim in the article is WP:OR and WP:CHERRYPICKING of (alleged) primary sources with no secondary source support. A second highly controversial claim is supported only by a blog. A third is based on a single book, a Wikileaks page, and a professor's essay that has not been peer-reviewed (I have asked for evidence of peer review, and Prioryman provided none). The source of the fourth highly controversial claim is the same unreviewed essay. Some of that text and fringe theory is now being copied to other articles.

I argued extensively on the talk page against those edits, but I broke no WP rules or policies. Unable to convince the editors to follow policy, I took the matter to DRN. Robert McClenon immediately closed the issue, and suggested the matter was not DRN appropriate and should go to ArbComm.[5]

I believe these facts demonstrate that this issue did not receive a fair and impartial hearing -- and that the admins were strongly predisposed to the decision.

Note that the AE discussion was closed at 15:36, 31 May 2016 (UTC). Damotclese (talk · contribs) added further comment two hours later at 17:47, 31 May 2016 (UTC).

My request: This ban should be lifted and the appropriate policies should applied to the topic. The editors and administrators who are abusing the policies should be addressed by properly uninvolved administrators who will do what they find appropriate in accordance with the findings of the 2009 Scientology Arbitration.

(I will undertake to update the links in this text when the AE discussions are archived.)

• Though several admins comment that the ban is "appropriate", no one has yet shown that I have done anything on this subject in violation of any WP policies. Surely, WP requires more than "we don't like you", and "you are in the way" to ban someone's editorial opinions. In addition to those problems, no one quibbles with my criticisms of that page. All the comments implicitly agree with me. Where is the rule book, folks? Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 15:40, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• I call The Wordsmith involved because with the large collection of which s/he boasts, obviously the subject is a big part of his/her life. I have not objected to him/her editing, but I do object to him/her applying WP administrative functions as though s/he were ruling on the conflicts between pro- and anti- instead of WP policies. I believe that is improper. So would I believe if the Pope were sanctioning apostates. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 15:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• Some editors seem to be arguing that regardless of what laws I broke or whether I broke ANY, I should still be punished. This is a very odd argument. Do we punish people for being inconvenient? In the real world, if SPA is not appropriate, the sanction should be canceled. No harm, no foul. If the antagonists want to bring another matter, they should start a new AE action. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 17:32, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• @The Wordsmith: Thanks for the advice on my signature. You could have mentioned that on my user page without going through AE. It is quite recent and I have no problem altering it.
• As for the sanction, the usual process is to consider whether the accused has broken any laws or rules. As Alice told the Red Queen, the verdict should come first.[6] But as yet, no one has shown that I broke any of the rules. My biggest crime seems to be that I insist that Wikipedia should treat an unpopular subject in accordance with standard editing policies. Insisting that the topic reveals the WP:TRUTH is not the way we do things -- policy is also clear on that. It doesn't matter how many books the admin has on his/er desk, there must be WP:VERIFIABILITY. So let's have a little discussion, if you please, about whether I have committed any wrongs and what those wrongs might be. There will be time enough for the sentence after considering the verdict. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 18:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• I think the question deserves a direct answer here, folks. What exactly am I being sanctioned for? Which policy have I violated? What conduct must others avoid so that they do not share my fate? And what will you do for that article that is so blatantly in violation of WP:FRINGE? Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 19:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• (Responding to off-line remarks on my user talk page:) Let us recall that The wordsmith was first to bring up his/er private life background, boasting that s/he knew more about the subject than any of the believers and had a handsome library of primary source books and recordings. The wordsmith's statement was an argument from WP:TRUTH rather than the policies and values of Wikipedia, and I believe it was both prejudicial and improper to the subject at hand, which was the WP:VERIFIABILITY of the article. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 21:01, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
• The Wordsmith has written below the following statement: "There is also private evidence in play, which I have submitted to the Arbitration Committee." If The Wordsmith did not consider it substantive, those words would not have been written. But if The Wordsmith (and others) considered it substantive and based his/er decision on it, I should be allowed to address it. Instead, it is hidden from me and from this forum. Does anyone care that this matter is off the road and into the weeds, far from the principles that Wikipedians believe they are following? Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 05:37, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
• This just gets odder and odder. An admin uninvolved editor states that those who agree with me have a "clearly deep partisanship" and are not "capable of rendering an unbiased opinion in this matter." Even the witnesses and commenting editors are attacked if they speak the wrong words! And not a word here about the "deep partisanship" demonstrated by Prioryman and his/er earlier cognomen, "ChrisO", when s/he was sanctioned by Arbitration and then pardoned? Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 22:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
• More news in the odder and odder department: Admin Dennis Brown declares (below) that his opinions about the issue have nothing to do with content (which is the only real product of Wikipedia and is being tragically ignored in this proceeding), but only about my conduct in "dealing with others". Admin Dennis Brown was witness to Prioryman's personal attacks against me in the May 25 proceeding (linked above), and acknowledged them at the time. But Dennis Brown says nothing about Prioryman's conduct now. Instead, Dennis Brown makes vague, unsupported statements about my conduct. This allegation by Dennis Brown about me without evidence is itself a personal attack WP:PA: Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 00:15, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• A Note to BMK: Please do not attempt to give other editors legal advice about what they can consider and not consider in commenting on these proceedings. Your statements are not backed by WP policy. This is not "litigation" (as you call it) and the rules of Appeals Courts do not apply. Other editors may examine as many facts as they hold to be relevant, they may investigate wherever they wish, and they may offer their opinions freely, without the crab-jointed constraints of The Rules of Federal Procedure and American courts. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 06:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• It is singularly improper for JBH (moving party below) or anyone else to misrepresent the bases of this appeal, of which the multiple major points are: (1) The ruling admin (The Wordsmith) was canvassed and summoned to the hearing by the filing party. (2) The admin sanctioned me on the accusation that I was WP:SPA. On re-examination, all editors agree that is simply not true. (3) The sanction is not based on applicable policy, rules, or prior arbitration and none has been cited; it stands only on "he's in the way" and "we don't like him". (4) Everything I said about the article in question is proved true and no one can deny the bald fact that the article matches WP:FRINGE to a T (wild accusations supported only by flimsy sources) and violates WP editing policies. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 15:01, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• Truly, the article R2-45 sites a number of secondary sources. But as I have reiterated, the most outrageous statements have feeble support: One statement is supported only by a blog. Another is supported by Wikileaks, a single book, and primary sources. A third is supported only by cherrypicking from primary sources. A fourth has only a professor's essay (not peer reviewed) in a field where he is not an expert. This is not in keeping with the requirements of WP:FRINGE, gentlemen, which states that A Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is. Statements about the truth of a theory must be based upon independent reliable sources. If discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, a theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight, and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner. The strongest critics of Scientology do not even mention the subject of this page. WP:VERIFIABILITY states that This means that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Accusations that an organization is committing or has committed criminal acts is most certainly likely to be challenged. WP:PSTS states, Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. When an editor repeatedly violates editorial policy, that editor should be disciplined. When an admin supports the editor by sanctioning the reporter of those violations, that admin is clearly out of line. To pretend this is NOT a content issue is disingenuous. To pretend this is ONLY a content issue misses the boat entirely. If this sanction is upheld, it will be a sad day for Wikipedia because that will mark a day when Wikipedia's goals are officially sacrificed to another agenda. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 21:15, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Statement by The Wordsmith

I understand the concerns here. Firstly personal experience is not relevant to WP:INVOLVED, but I will state for the record that I am not a Scientologist, have never been a Scientologist, and none of my family or close friends are Scientologists. I merely take an active interest in their history, policies and doctrine to consider myself a subject-matter expert, which is why I made that comment on the first AE. There was a question of whether the primary sources (inaccessible to the general public) were being used correctly; I opined that I owned some of the ones questioned and confirmed their accuracy. I also consider myself an expert on the history and theology of Roman Catholicism (though far less so, since there is so much more to study than I could in a lifetime), and have access to many documents there as well. If one of those sources were questioned, I would speak to their authenticity just as I did.

WP:INVOLVED refers to participation in the content area that would cause bias. Aside from contributing some well-sourced content and a photograph to Project Chanology in 2008, and probably some routine vandalism patrolling, I haven't participated in it. My interaction with Prioryman and Sfarney have been in a purely administrative role, as required by policy. There is also private evidence in play, which I have submitted to the Arbitration Committee.

However, I'm not unreasonable. I recognize that Sfarney has contributed positively in other areas, and that invoking Remedy 5.1 might have been a bit harsh (though it was, in fact, suggested by an Arbitrator I consulted for advice). I would be willing to convert it to strictly a Discretionary Sanctions ban, and strikethrough my SPA note on the Arbitration case page log. I still think the 1 year ban is proper, but the 5.1 issue seems to be the sticking point here. so I'll budge on that. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 13:57, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

In addition, neither Dennis nor myself needed to be canvassed. We are the two most active admins on AE, and the ping probably just cut a few hours off of when we would have noticed it. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:00, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: I believe you are mistaken about prior encounters. I was surprised by that assertion so I went to his talkpage myself and did a Ctrl + F for "Wordsmith", the only one that popped up was me used the required template to notify him of this very sanction that is being appealed, as is required by policy. To my knowledge outside of Arbitration Enforcement we have had zero prior interaction. I also have not contributed content, much less been in a content dispute, in the Scientology topic area in the last 8 years. Regarding repealing 5.1, yes I can do that and just leave the regular AE ban unilaterally, but before I do I would like input from other involved editors. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 16:41, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

@Sfarney: It should be noted that I logged the sanctions at both Arbcom Discretionary Sanctions and at WP:ARBSCI. In effect, for record-keeping purposes, they are two separate sanctions that are identical in length and scope. The offer I've put on the table, in recognition of your positive contributions elsewhere (and that I can sometimes be a bit heavy-handed), is for me to repeal the Remedy 5.1 sanction but leave the AE one intact. In essence, you would still be prohibited from editing around Scientology for a year, but mention of you being an SPA would be struck from the log. Considering how many editors here feel that the sanction itself was appropriate, I think that's a fair offer. On a related note, would you consider altering your signature? The text style in my browser blurs it and hurts the eyes, and I imagine that goes for others as well. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:59, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

@Sfarney: There was evidence that I submitted to the Arbitration Committee regarding somebody with a very similar name to yours who verifiably works for the Office of Special Affairs attacking content on the internet that doesn't conform to their doctrine ("entheta" as they call it). After doing further research yesterday it seems unlikely that you are the same person, and I emailed the Committee last night to inform them of that. Please consider the private evidence out of play now. However, I believe the actions observed still warrant the sanction. You have also not responded to my offer to repeal the 5.1 sanction. Given the comments other uninvolved admins editors have made, I think that is probably the best outcome that will result from this appeal. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 13:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: You are correct. The bulk of my work in Dispute Resolution takes place at AE, so my brain associates "uninvolved" with "administrator". Struckthrough and corrected. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 16:31, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Dennis Brown

• That Prioryman contacted me isn't canvassing because I had acted administratively in the previous case; I was not an involved editor. It was also pointless as I patrol AE and would have seen it anyway, so that point is moot. To clear up one thing above, I didn't "speak against you", I acted in an administrative fashion, as I do other cases at AN, ANI, AE and elsewhere. I was not involved in the content. I did give you a firm warning in the first case rather than sanction you formally. In the second case, I was inclined to just continue and see what happens next, but The Wordsmith decided to act, which is within his authority as administrator. At first I thought you needed to have the warning template, but I was mistaken, and had this conversation on his talk page. Once informed of this and from my perspective, he acted reasonably and within the authority granted to him by Arb and the community, even if his actions weren't my first choice of action. WP:AE doesn't require a consensus of admin to agree, it just requires that whomever acts does so within the boundaries of policy. As to his being involved, I don't see how familiarity automatically disqualifies someone with acting in an administrative fashion, and don't see any diff/link to anything that would serve to demonstrate bias regarding the content here. Commenting on the content doesn't disqualify, as admin must have the basic understanding of the content in order to act. Having an opinion doesn't disqualify an admin either. It is only when an admin's opinion is such that it interfere's with their ability to be unbiased that WP:involved comes into play. As I'm involved now only in this particular decision, I can't opine in an administrative capacity, but would still recommend the appeal be declined. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:45, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

  I understand the hesitation, but WP:INVOLVED starts out and focuses on "In general, editors should not act as administrators in disputed cases in which they have been involved." and I haven't seen evidence of any dispute with The Wordsmith with Scientology at Wikipedia. I'm not saying real life experience is meaningless, but the policy doesn't even mention real world experience in any way. Policies like WP:COI mention real world experiences, but I don't see how that applies here. If we consider someone "involved" based on their real world experience, we would be doing so outside of that policy. I understand and accept the concern, but short of some other policy rationale, I'm hesitant to do use the WP:involved tag here. I'm not saying it is optimal, but policy doesn't seem to forbid it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Laval : Don't mistake the support of an admin action as being anything related to content. I can only speak for myself, but the content doesn't interest me at all. The behavior of editors does, and what was looked at was the recent behavior. It isn't about right or wrong on the content, it is about how an editor goes about dealing with others. I saw your name on that talk page, for example, but I didn't see a problem with how you related with those you disagreed with. The same can't be said for sfarney. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:13, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Sfarney, as for "personal attacks", you are overstating your case. Prioryman was pushing civility a bit at AE, but I asked him to stop and he did. This is common during disputes and isn't going to draw a sanction. It happened, I asked him to pull back, he did, end of problem. Surely your skin is not really so thin. Regardless, it has exactly zero to do with this appeal and didn't even take place during the case you are appealing. Laboring prior problems that have already been dealt with isn't going to change the outcome in this appeal. As for my culpability, I never once suggested a topic ban or other sanction for anyone in either of those cases, so you need to look elsewhere to point your finger and lay blame. I suggest a mirror. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:27, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Comment by JzG

There are two questions here: was the sanction valid, and should Wordsmith have been the one to impose it.

The first question is easy to answer: the sanction is amply supported by the evidence.

The second is also easy to answer: probably not.

So, we should not lift the sanction, but another admin should enforce it instead. Guy (Help!) 11:19, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Comment by OID

I raised this at the Wordsmith's talkpage due to my concerns with the lack of discussion and the obvious implication the Wordsmith had already made their mind up. I (broadly) agree with JzG above except I dont think there was near enough evidence to ban someone under that remedy as an SPA. The ARBSCI case was clear that SPA's were accounts solely dedicated to editing in the scientology area and had little interest in anything else. While sfarney has recently been editing a lot in that area (such is the nature of editing) it is by no means their sole interest as can be seen by their contribution history. If we are using that standard to label people an SPA, well Prioryman would qualify, Mathsci further up the page would for their dedication to choral articles and so on. A Single Purpose Account is here to edit in a clearly defined area and that area only - there is no evidence sfarney qualifies as that. RE Dennis and familiarity: I have a few books on cars. That wouldnt disqualify me from closing contentious discussions on cars. If I owned a series of extremely hard to get and in-depth documents (primary and secondary) on morris minors, declared I was the most knowledgeable wikipedian about morris minors AND had previously declared another editor was correct in their morris minor edits - I should not be closing any dispute related to said morris minors. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:38, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Comment by Prioryman

For the record, it's not remotely "canvassing" to neutrally notify the two editors who had acted administratively in the previous case to inform them that there was a new related arbitration enforcement request. As WP:APPNOTE says, it's appropriate to notify "Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)". Prioryman (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

@John Carter: I looked at the notability question before I got involved in editing the article - no point putting in the effort if it's potentially going to be deleted - and was satisfied that it was notable after looking at the references listed here, viz. 7 newspaper articles (including Time magazine, the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post), one TV documentary and two mainstream books. My subsequent research found more sources in addition to those listed on that website. Prioryman (talk) 16:38, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Statement by John Carter

First, I guess I could agree that from what I can see the article in question might have serious notability problems. I see from the references it is the main subject of one article in the Clearwater Sun, and also the subject of a Hubbard lecture (hardly independent) and one wikileaks audio recording. I have serious trouble believing that those sources are necessarily sufficient to establish notability, so I guess I have some sympathy for Sfarney here. Having said that, however, I have to say that his methods as displayed in the recent AE discussion are probably sufficient for sanctions of some sort. I also find his most recent comment implying The Wordsmith has to be considered biased because of having lots of books on the subject incompetent and itself problematic. I regularly consult Lutheran and Catholic seminary and university libraries for materials on various religion-related topics, but the mere fact of a library being affiliated with one group does not mean that the works found there all support the view of that body. They collect a lot of material critical of their traditions as well. The fact that Sfarney seems to be jumping to at best poorly supported conclusions about the nature of the material available to The Wordsmith, as well as to his motivations in getting those books, can't be seen by me as being anything but a continuing indicator of problematic behavior. I have to say that based on the way Sfarney handled this dispute, as revealed by the content of the AE page, the sanction seems appropriate, and that there is no obvious reason to impugn The Wordsmith, and the rather poor attempts at misdirection impugning otherwise lends even more support to the belief in Sfarney's ongoing problematic behavior in this matter. John Carter (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Laval

Due to medical issues, my activity on Wikipedia recently has been sporadic and infrequent, so this sudden topic ban on User:Sfarney comes as a total surprise and I've only discovered it by chance after the Memorial Day weekend, during and after which I have been hospitalized. At this exact moment I will not be able to go into any level of detail due to my health issues, but let me state for the time being that I totally and emphatically disagree and oppose this topic ban against Sfarney, who I have found to be, like myself, a very neutral editor. Our goal here at Wikipedia is total and absolute neutrality. If this is true, if Wikipedia is about absolute neutrality, then a topic ban against Sfarney for attempting such regarding Scientology literally makes no sense. The articles regarding Scientology are, in general, so extremely biased against the subject that if we were dealing with Judaism or Islam, Wikipedia would be accused of antisemitism and Islamophobia, respectively. We need more neutrality and emotionless distance, not bias. Based on my experience and interactions, Sfarney is a valued and productive editor, and I strongly recommend against this action. Forgive me any errors or omissions, or any other such mistakes. If more details or information will be needed from me, please allow me a few days to recover from my most recent hospital stay. Many thanks and appreciation, Laval (talk) 08:22, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Here is User:Prioryman removing a threat [7] made after threatening me with a similar ban as Sfarney [8], but only after I made clear I gave into his and his gangs bullying [9] and his false claims of "consensus" -- if "consensus" on Wikipedia means a gang of anti-Scientology editors can do whatever the hell they want, then fine. As I wrote there, my health and sanity are more important than putting up with this crap. Topic ban me and whoever else tries to do some good according to policy here. Wikipedia keeps losing good editors and it's clear to me that the situation is hopeless, and like others before me, I give up. Prioryman and his anti-Scientology want to bully me off of Wikipedia, and they've succeeded. Laval (talk) 17:11, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

And the fact that blatantly anti-Scientology editors like Prioryman, User:Feoffer, User:Slashme, User:Damotclese, User:Thimbleweed, are not topic banned and yet one editor who goes against them does, shows the arrogance of this kind of move. As I've written, I expect I'll be next to be topic banned next since Prioryman has become arrogant enough to go ahead and revert whatever edits I make, particularly in regards to legitimate maintenance tags. This is disgusting enough that I can't believe this is even happening. Laval (talk) 17:15, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

And another thing, if Sfarney is to remain topic banned, then I should be topic banned as well. The only thing the two of us are guilty of is trying to uphold Wikipedia policy and guidelines against anti-Scientology bullies like Prioryman, Slashme, Damotclese, Feoffer, etc. You guys can even go ahead and ban me from Wikipedia overall, I wouldn't be surprised at this point. I simply regret investing so much time and effort into this project that I thought could be improved, but in turn has just shown that the nepotism of old still remains. I am just appalled by Prioryman and the level of support in his favor here, while his behavior is ignored in spite of the fact that he and his buddies have gone out of their way to bully the hell out of anyone who doesn't see things the way they do, just look at their constant removal of legitimate maintenance tags. It's absurd. So, topic ban me or accuse me of being a covert Scientologist working for the Office of Special Affairs. That's how it is, right? Laval (talk) 17:22, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Slashme

I would like to respond to User:Laval's statement that I am "blatantly anti-Scientology". I feel that this is a mischaracterisation. I try to be neutral and balanced, and where I find content that is uncritically negative towards Scientology, I remove it. See this edit and this one for example.

Laval also asserts that I am part of a "gang" of editors that are "bullying" him. I am saddened by this claim: I would hate to be guilty of on-wiki or off-wiki harassment. I cannot find anything in my editing history that supports this statement, but if anyone else feels that this accusation is true, please highlight where I have done so, so that I can modify my behaviour in future.

I would also like to respond to User:Sfarney's statement that certain claims in the article are based on "a professor's essay that has not been peer-reviewed (I have asked for evidence of peer review, and Prioryman provided none)." This is surprising, considering that this issue has already been addressed. The "essay" in question is an English translation of a peer-reviewed article, and both the translation and the original are cited in the article:

• Lane, Jodi M. (January 30, 2008). "Malignant Narcissism, L. Ron Hubbard, and Scientology's Policies of Narcisstic Rage" (PDF). University of Alberta.
• Lane, Jodi M.; Kent, Stephen A. (2008). "Politiques de rage et narcissisme malin". Criminologie (in French). 41 (2): 117–155. Retrieved 20 May 2016.

This has been pointed out on the talk page, whereupon Sfarney questioned the qualifications of the reviewers. Here, however, he persists in claiming that the article is a non-peer-reviewed "essay".

The facts mentioned in the article are supported by newspaper articles, magazine articles, peer-reviewed research and books. The lower quality sources (blogs and links to original material) that keep being mentioned, simply serve to give extra context and detail, and certainly aid the reader who has an interest in the topic. --Slashme (talk) 08:08, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by sfarney

• WP:INVOLVED says

  In general, editors should not act as administrators in disputed cases in which they have been involved. This is because involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about. Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors), and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute.

  Thus the essential nature of "involvement" by Wikipedia's standards is not about an editor's past personal off-Wikipedia history, but primarily about their on-Wikipedia relationship with the editor being sanctioned. Were sfarney's extremely broad definition of "involvement" to be accepted, admins with expert knowledge of, for instance, physics, would not be able to take any action against an editor whose transgressions were in the subject area of physics. That clearly goes against common sense, to remove from administrative action the very administrators who are best able to judge problematic behavior in a particular subject area. This being the case, sfarney's claim that The Wordsmith is "involved" is not valid, and the sanction should be upheld. BMK (talk) 11:12, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• FWIW I concur with The Wordsmith concerning Sfarney's sig, which I have found problematic for a while now, but which I didn't think was worth the effort ro complain about, since I come across it so inoften. Still, it is hard to read. BMK (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• The user has clearly been well cognizant of the nature of Scientology article sanctions for some time, and was given ample notice in the past. [10] shows an interest in the topic in May 2015. (" The History of man page states there are recorded Hubbard lectures on space opera, too. I think the lead should be rewritten to remove this innuendo completely. It sounds like the Wiki has an axe to grind about scientology, instead of just telling the facts." Slade Farney).

And a host of warnings from Bishonen as well, culminating in an indefinite topic ban on Rick Alan Ross and "all related pages and content" (note that article is directly related to Scientology in itself). Not to mention [11].

Where a user has been long aware of the nature of the Scientology articles, and has substantially specialized in that general area, and been previously topic banned in a specific related area, they ought not be surprised that sanctions might apply.(Out of 1300 article edits, more than 300 relate to Scientology to a greater or lesser degree, Of 900 article talk page edits, more than 600 are related). The edit histories show no particular interaction with the administrator, The Wordsmith, at issue, so on both hands the appeal is problematic. Collect (talk) 12:40, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• I think Wordsmith would classify as involved. If you look at Sfarney's talk page you will see discussions between the two. It's clear that Wordsmith was involved in a content dispute and as such should not have been the one to ban. I think we should listen to Wordsmith though where the offer is to rescind the 5.1 sanction, I believe as the imposing admin Wordsmith can do it without any other input. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:58, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• User:The_Wordsmith, I made a mistake and I struck out my comment. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:09, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• The sanction was within administrator discression and not unreasonable. The Wordsmith has agreed to strike the Arbcom 5.1 sanction and keep the DS in place. No practical difference as far as the imposed editing restriction goes. Just because Rhe Wordsmith has experise in the area does not make him WP:INVOLVED and he has declined any COI which could make him so.

  Those are really the only issues to address. This is an appeal not a do-over of the AE discussion. Jbh^Talk 19:00, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• I agree. Sfarney's last couple of comments above seem to be attempting to re-litigate the matter, which is not what an AE appeal is intended for. It is not another bite of the apple. BMK (talk) 21:07, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

I regretfully agree. The AE page demonstrated the specific actions Sfarney took which resulted in the sanction being placed, and there is no reason to repeat them, or to attempt to ignore them. Regarding the comments he made about boasts, well, hell, I've done kinda the same thing myself above. with my comments about the quality of some of the libraries I haunt. In some cases, such statements can be seen as useful. I really don't see any basis for saying that The Wordsmith has to be counted as involved simply because he has read up on a subject IRL. If we took that position, a lot of our articles here would never be edited. John Carter (talk) 21:13, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• I don't understand the comment above by Laval. Is Laval an involved editor in this? Should Laval have been notified for some reason? Is there any reason that Laval's medical condition should hold up a decision about whether Sfarney's appeal should be granted or not? The tone of the comment seems to imply that the answer to all these questions is "yes", but I'm not seeing where Laval is involved in this specific issue in any way, except perhaps as a general supporter of Sfarney. [12] BMK (talk) 16:08, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

• Given Laval's last few comments, I understand better now the editor's position, and suggest that because of their clearly deep partisanship, their comments should pay no part in the determination of whether Sfarney's appeal should be granted - I do not believe that Laval is capable of rendering an unbiased opinion in this matter. I assume that Laval has been notified of the Discretionary Sanctions in play for the Scientology subject area? BMK (talk) 20:15, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

• @Sfarney: You are under the mistaken impression that I am an admin - I am not; never have been, never will be. I am a mere rank-and-file editor. By filing this appeal here, instead of at AE, any uninvolved editor can discuss the question of your appeal - on AE it would have been any univolved admin. I assume you made the choice to come here for a reason - perhaps you thought that admins would be predisposed not to lift another admin's sanction, and that regular editors would be more sympathetic to your plight. That doesn't seem to have happened.
  Further, my assessment of Laval had nothing whatsoever to do with his "agreeing with you" and was based entirely on the words he wrote in his comment.
  I will also say this: you are doing yourself no good at all with your continued comments. In fact, to my eye, you're simply digging yourself into a deeper hole, at the bottom of which won't be a simple topic ban, but likely a block of some sort for disruptive editing. Just my opinion, of course, but that's the way I see it. Were I you, I'd lay off the "odder and odder" bit: you are a supplicant here, requesting relief from a sanction that appears to be approved of by the vast majority of commenters. Snideness isn't going to help you. BMK (talk) 01:51, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• Again, the AE matter is not going to be re-litigated, and you are not going to be able to "turn the tables" and make this about whether Prioryman is partisan or not. That's not the issue in this appeal, it simply does not enter into it. The issue has been plainly laid out and answered: Was the sanction valid? Yes. Was The Wordsmith "involved" by Wikipedia's definition? No. Therefore the appeal should be declined. BMK (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Legal advice"? What the heck are you talking about? BMK (talk) 06:40, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• Just a reminder to @The Wordsmith: that because this appeal was filed at AN and not at AE, discussion about the appeal is among uninvolved editors not among uninvolved admins. Of course, an uninvolved admin will need to close the appeal, as usual. BMK (talk) 16:13, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Move to close

• I would like to suggest that consensus among the uninvolved editors is that this appeal should be declined. The only basis for the appeal were claims that The Wordsmith was INVOLVED in some way or that he exceeded his administrative discretion. Consensus is the negative in both cased. I suggest the sanction be removed from where it is recorded in ARBSCI 5.1, as The Wordsmith suggested, since Sfarney is not an SPA and the ARBSCI/DS sanction remain in place. This can then be closed. We have passed into the realm of more heat than light and it is highly unlikely anything further productive will be accomplished here. Jbh^Talk 12:13, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• Seconded. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:51, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• Since SfFarney seems to want more information on why this closing was seconded. In my estimation, the OP incorrectly overstates their case, as there are secondary sources, etc., and the OP may have developed into systematically overstating the case in general, including against Wordsmith, and it could reasonably be seen to go beyond useful contribution to behaviorally problematic behavior. As for the extensive editing of related topics (which is often shorthanded as SpA) well just move on, as the modification addresses that, and finally, as others have explained in depth, having read books on a topic, does not make one involved. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:51, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• I concur. BMK (talk) 16:13, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• I can see that there might be some reasonable questions regarding whether the article has sufficient discussion as a primary topic in independent literature to raise possible notability questions as per WP:GNG, although the newspaper article probably addresses those concerns, with the other sources provided. Whether it merits being a stand-alone article is still a matter of question. That, however, is a separate matter from this request, which was about whether the AE sanction was appropriate. Given the behavior of Sfarney indicated on that page, and in this one, I have to say that there is sufficient reason to say that such a sanction, based on his behavior, is appropriate. There is a separate matter of whether the behavior of other editors in the same material is also appropriate, and whether the article might reasonably be considered for deletion or merging, but those are separate matters beyond the scope of this appeal discussion. They could have been, and could still be, raised in accord with policies and guidelines on the relevant pages, and that would have been the preferable way to conduct this discussion, but they seemingly were not, in favor of the behavior which led to the AE sanction. John Carter (talk) 17:12, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by sfarney

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Note I'm obviously not uninvolved, but since this is related to the Result I would like to note that I have vacated the 5.1 sanction as promised. Feel free to move this if anyone thinks it should be elsewhere. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Jadcherla

(Moved to ANI. BMK (talk) 14:18, 1 June 2016 (UTC))

Quick request of any passing admin

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Could someone pop over and close Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Rollback#User:Xender Lourdes one way or the other? (It's very easy even if you've never done it before; just go to Special:UserRights/Xender_Lourdes and check the appropriate tick-box, then add a {{done}} or {{not done}} to the request; the bot will do the rest.) The thread at Wikipedia talk:Requests for permissions/Rollback/Administrator instructions#Note re PC has had the unintended consequence of making every admin who regularly closes RFP/R requests technically WP:INVOLVED, so this is languishing far longer than it should. ‑ Iridescent 16:01, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Closed. I don't consider myself involved though I work PERM pretty regularly, and this was clear to me. He can come back in six months. Katie^talk 18:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Frustrating, as he's obviously someone here to help and not a driveby MMORPG-er, but equally I can't see what he actually wanted the permission for (and if he's talking like this to a bunch of experienced editors, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable handing over access to something with as much ABF potential as STiki). ‑ Iridescent 18:59, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Well I heard that :) It's alright. Katie's declined my request. And I've shot myself in the foot by writing another layer of silliness below her decline. I think I got off on such a wrong foot with you (by the way, I'm a 'she'). The rollback is not important for me. Collaborating with editors here is. And I'm thankful to have learnt something better from the interaction at the rollback noticeboard. Sorry again for starting interacting with you on a wrong footing. And apologies to KrakatoaKatie too for the unneeded reply I've left her on that noticeboard. See you around. Xender Lourdes (talk) 19:29, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

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AFD close request

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Can an uninvolved admin please close Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Planned presidential transition of Mitt Romney? It has been open for three weeks now, has several dozen !votes and twice as many comments, and we're unlikely to see any new arguments that haven't been made. I have !voted myself, so I won't express an opinion here on how it should be closed, just that it should be. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 18:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

✓ Done. I don't see how I could have closed it any other way (the topic is obviously considered notable by enough people that it's not a clear-cut deletion, and there's no obvious merge target), but I nonetheless it to be at WP:DRV in a couple of days for the near-inevitable challenge. ‑ Iridescent 19:06, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

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RfC closure request

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seeing the above, I'm supposing it's okay to request this here...will an experienced, uninvolved admin undertake closing the RfC at "area of a disk"...it's been open about a month but discussion has pretty much died over the past couple of weeks...about 30 people contributed with 26 "voting" (16 to 10 favoring "circle") with lots of policy points/discussion on both sides...it's a very long rfc and will take a not insignificant amount of time to close it properly..so you'd have to be willing to spend some time...(I posted this on the closure noticeboard too a while back but it appears that's backed up for months on end etc)....68.48.241.158 (talk) 19:50, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

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okay, I never went back and noticed that..but that was two weeks ago..but I guess it will technically be 30 days in less than 48 hours so...so will repost then, I suppose..68.48.241.158 (talk) 21:55, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Backlog at WP:FFD

There's a little over 800 items in need of closure/review at Files for discussion, most of which are very, very easy closures. It'd be great if several admins could spare a few minutes to close some old discussions. Thanks, FASTILY 22:27, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

WP:RFD is backlogged as well, if anyone is feeling in a closing mood. shoy (reactions) 12:47, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks to BDD for clearing the backlog at RFD! shoy (reactions) 14:19, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Very kind of you, shoy, but I was hardly alone. Deryck Chan and Patar knight deserve credit, as does the project's newest admin, Tavix, who has really hit the ground running at RFD. --BDD (talk) 00:39, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

I'll try! Deryck C. 01:09, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Jim1138 keeps on removing what I write on article talk page.

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Hi, Jim1138 keeps on removing what I write in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:500_Questions when I am trying to discuss something that I do not agree with. 108.162.157.141 (talk) 05:33, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

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Potential six-month-old hoax has been widely shared online

(Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this, but I thought someone should take a look at it.)

Last December, someone anonymously added this sentence to the Radar detector detector article:

"In 1982 the US military funded a project, codenamed R4D (radar detector-detector-detector-detector), in order to develop a device capable of detecting radar detector-detector-detectors." (diff)

This has been widely shared online, including by the popular blog Slate Star Codex (link) and the /r/wikipedia and /r/TIL subreddits (link, link). However, the original Wikipedia article doesn't have a source for "R4D". I looked for one, but all the sources online seemed to trace back to Wikipedia, or were obviously people joking around on forums and stuff. Google Books, Google Scholar, and Google News don't appear to have anything on this project - the only reference to "R4D" in a military context is to a particular model of airplane.

Can someone confirm whether or not this is a hoax? Thanks. 2602:306:3A29:9B90:F45A:7D7F:B73F:6717 (talk) 08:57, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

See WP:CIRCULAR. Wikipedia cannot use itself as a source. If there is no reliable source for the information, it can be removed. Doc talk 09:00, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

R3D seems to actually be a thing ([13], see "VG-2 alert" and "Spectre alert" in the feature list). R4D sounds farfetched to me but who knows. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 19:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Hoax or no, it's unsourced and this humble non-admin has removed it. Richard Keatinge (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Explain this block to me

I'm interested in and have been following blocks and unblock requests on Wikipedia recently...can someone explain this one to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:108.162.157.141 ..it appears this user has had difficulty with the 3 revert rule in past...however, it appears to me A. Jim1138 beat him to 3 reverts on the talkpage of the relevant article...and B. the talk page question itself can't automatically be interpreted as forum discussion...I would interpret it as a question looking for knowledge/sources for potential new info to add to the article...so in this particular case it would seem Jim1138 is more out of line...??68.48.241.158 (talk) 14:18, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

You are supposed to notify people on their talk page when you bring them up, especially when making accusations by name, at AN/ANI. So, you should have placed a talk page message on Jim1138 and MusikAnimal's talk pages. You have to make sure you do this going forward. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 14:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Have you asked the admin @MusikAnimal: about this yet? The first step for clarifications of admin actions should be to the admin. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I was just trying to understand how things are working here...I wasn't trying to actually get involved...ie like using this as an example to understand how things work in practice...68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:01, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't matter, its still a requirement to notify people you discuss in these public forums. Even conceptually, it makes more sense to consult the person who did it, than to speculate with others who weren't even involved. Sergecross73 msg me 15:04, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Step one is to discuss with the blocking admin. We can't speak for them. HighInBC 15:05, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

okay I'll post on their talkpage about this thread...it's likely I'd like others to weigh-in too though, if they'd care to...68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

do I have to tell the other two as well? I don't really want them here arguing about it...68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:13, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you must notify anyone you bring up for discussion here. It is not acceptable to discuss people on a noticeboard without their knowledge. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

If you just want to ask someone a question, just post to their talk page; it really is that simple. If you reference other people, link their names [[User:username]] if you want them to get notifications. You do not have to contact them personally to have a discussion on someone else's user talk page. If you want to involve the blocked user, you will need to have the discussion on the blocked user's page - as it is the only thing they can edit. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

When I first reviewed the ANEW report, I sympathized with the anon in that they were questioning actual content and not intending to use the talk page as a forum. However the user is well aware of what constitutes edit warring and what they should do in such a scenario, as evidenced by their history of similar disruption. I would block on the basis of the edit warring on 500 Questions alone, before they started edit warring on the talk page. One could argue Jim1138 was also edit warring but they were clearly acting in good-faith to enforce WP:NOTFORUM policy. I do not think they have any vested interest in the subject nor were trying to WP:BITE. There are a dedicated suite of user warnings for WP:NOTFORUM, as opposed to just a "general notice". Patrollers could easily assume such reverts are exempt from the three-revert rule, particularly when it is policy-related. Jim1138, I know you mean no harm, but next time seek administrative assistance or outside help if you are presented with this problem, as technically those reverts are not exempt. Hope this clears things up and that we can all walk away learning something from this — MusikAnimal ^talk 15:30, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

MusikAnimal Yes. Will do. Jim1138 (talk) 09:42, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Based on the explanation of the blocking admin and the prior history of the IP I see nothing wrong with this block. HighInBC 15:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Same here. Sergecross73 msg me 15:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

thanks for the response and your reasoning...it seems this user has a hard time with the 3 revert rule in general...but the history also suggests to me that he's found himself in a couple other borderline situations where there was perhaps some other not entirely appropriate behavior on the part of others (like in this case)...but maybe this user's history has to play a part in the result...viewed in isolation, however, in regards to solely the issue with the talkpage I would think Jim1138 stepped more out of bounds...it was far too early to revert the post based on forum..so the initial revert was inappropriate imo...he then beat the IP to 3 reverts as far as I can tell...In any event, like I said, I'm kind of just trying to get a sense of how things work in practice...68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

As a general matter, you have to edit pretty badly to hit any of the hard boundaries that can get you blocked without a lot of prior back-and-forth. So you seem to be asking "just how badly can I edit without hitting one of those boundaries?". Don't ask that. Instead, try to edit as well as you can. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 02:40, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

• Note I have unblocked this user after they demonstrated an understanding of why they were blocked and made a commitment not to continue such behaviour. I also discussed this with the blocking admin and acted with their agreement. HighInBC 15:18, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

RfC closure request

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a bot just removed the template as 30 days has passed..so requesting again..will an experienced, uninvolved admin please undertake closing the RfC at "area of a disk"...it's been open a month but discussion has pretty much died over the past couple of weeks...about 30 people contributed with 26 "voting" (16 to 10 favoring "circle") with lots of policy points/discussion on both sides...it's a very long rfc and will take a not insignificant amount of time to close properly..so you'd have to be willing to spend some time...68.48.241.158 (talk) 14:31, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

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Difference between a ping and a noticeboard notice

The instructions are clear about using {{AN-notice}}, {{ANI-notice}}, etc. when there is a discussion about an editor. Would a user ping serve the same purpose? The only small technical difference is that it's received as an "alert" rather than a "message". Either way, the user should be able to get the notice. Both methods can indicate the involved thread. Are the noticeboard notices preferred over pings? — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 16:46, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Not all pings are successful. Sometimes it's a bug, sometimes the editor has done it incorrectly - they may try to fix it by editing an re-saving it but that doesn't work. Also, I get talk page notices automatically emailed to me, but not pings. Doug Weller talk 16:59, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

In addition, editors can opt-out of ping notifications, but not talk page notices. The only sure way to generate a notification is to edit a users talk page. — Strongjam (talk) 17:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Makes sense. Thanks — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:16, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. The templates were created long before Pings existed, and (I think) before alerts generated an email. All we had was the Big Orange Bar of Doom. As it stands now, pings can me shut down and Alerts can be disabled for everything except edits to your Talkpage. I personally prefer pinging, especially considering WP:DTTR, but unfortunately the template is the only way to be certain they see the notice. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:20, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

And for transparency. It's easy for a discussion to get bogged down with claims of the user not being notified, someone digging out diffs of an aledged ping, etc, but there's no disputing the notice on the user's talkpage (even if they revert it). Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• We've actually had this discussion 2 or 3 times since notifications came out, on the talk page here and ANI I think, and each time it was clear that a consensus believed that regular notifications are still required, for the reasons given above. Lugnuts probably points to the biggest issue, which is that others can clearly see you complied with notification by simply looking at the target's talk page history. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:19, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
  1. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive252#What_constitutes_notification.3F. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:47, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Admins requested for moderated RfC

There is two months of background information here, so I'll keep it brief: At the encouragement of Arbcom, and to avoid a second Case, we are holding a moderated RfC regarding how to phrase the issue of GMO safety across all of the relevant articles where it needs to be mentioned (with a Discretionary Sanction saying it can't be overturned without another RfC), like was done successfully with Jerusalem. There have been multiple local RfCs on individual talkpages, edit wars, and an Arbitration case. Myself and Laser brain volunteered to moderate it, enforcing Discretionary Sanctions as necessary to minimize disruption and keep it on topic. However, two months, later, I'm pushing to move it forward/initiate the RfC and, to put it mildly, all hell breaks loose. Four hours before I planned to protect the page pending its opening, Laser brain is forced to withdraw due to harassment and threats of doxxing. I probably would have bowed out too if I wasn't known for handling these sort of intractable disputes.

So, since I refuse to bow to harassment and threats, I'm seeking a second admin to help enforce civility and do what is necessary. I know I'm doing the equivalent of asking you to give a hornet's nest a good smack every day for at least 30 days, but surely there must be at least one uninvolved masochist willing to join me and patrol the RfC. Its current home is at User:The Wordsmith/GMORFC, but it will obviously be moved to Project space when initiated.

Oh, and I'll also need three uninvolved admins willing to determine consensus and close when things are over. Please let me know here if you're willing to do either job. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 18:48, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Update: The hornet-smacking position has been graciously filled by Coffee (talk · contribs). Now all I need are 3 uninvolved admins to indicate that they would be willing to determine consensus after at least 30 days. Much less masochistic. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 20:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Coffee for stepping in. I raise a cup to you! And to The Wordsmith for sticking with it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• I seem to be a glutton for RFC punishment, so I can help close it in July. Any sooner or very much later, though, and I'm going to be too busy. Katie^talk 01:39, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks! I don't know you very well, but I've heard good things. I assume you have no trouble meeting WP:INVOLVED for this topic area? If so, I'll add your name to the RfC and then just 2 more are needed. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 01:48, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm not only uninvolved, I don't think I've ever edited anything in that area, ever. Maybe I locked a page from a RFPP way back when, but I honestly don't remember. Katie^talk 02:22, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Perfect! I'll take care of the red tape and drop you a note Monday when it goes live. Now, any other takers? I promise, I won't ask you to do anything except judge consensus when it ends. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 02:34, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Doxxing?

The Wordsmith, that it very serious, can you elaborate? petrarchan47คุก 07:20, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Actually, harassment is pretty serious too. What exactly happened to Laser Brain? The vagueness of these charges leaves me feeling uneasy; without definition, they spread to anyone who (very rightly) questioned this RfC idea. It could have the effect of biasing the process before it begins. petrarchan47คุก 07:24, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Finally, Wordsmith, I am uncomfortable with your characterization of events. There may be things behind the scenes that I'm not aware of, and I hope you will explain what happened to Laser Brain. Threats of doxxing, and harassment, should be acted upon. I'm not sure how appropriate it is to sprinkle accusations here rather than to take proper action.

I was not aware that you were about to close the RfC discussion; there is no particular reason that I made my comments when I did. Tsavage made fantastic suggestions soon after my arrival to your page (I don't know what was behind his timing), and Sarah SV says she stopped by with her own comments due to Tsavage's contribution.

In her remarks here, I think she gets to a very important problem with the RfC idea that should be considered:

The GMO issue could change at any time, even if only in nuanced ways, as more research or position papers become available. If new sources appear, this situation means that editors won't be able to add them until they've organized a 30-day RfC

To me, it seems unfair to characterize our participation on your talk page in the way you have, and equally unfair not to allow discussion to continue regarding some serious issues. It may have felt like all hell breaking loose, but I for one was unaware of your plans to close down the discussion in 4 hours.

I think the community should be allowed more control over this process via open discussion, as it is entirely possible that the whole RfC idea is inherently flawed. petrarchan47คุก 09:10, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I'll try to answer all of your questions at least briefly. I commented several times, including when SlimVirgin asked, that I was going to fullprotect the page at noon yesterday while we made the necessary changes to move it to Project-space and open it. This was delayed a few hours by Laser brain withdrawing. He said he had received several harassing emails, including one credible threat to dox him if he continued to participate. I don't know who sent them, but it is clearly unacceptable in any context so I urged him to forward the emails to the Arbitration Committee.

Thankfully, Coffee has agreed to step in to fill his shoes after I put out a request. He has an excellent track record of dispute resolution going back several years, and I could not have asked for a better partner had I sought one out specifically.

The RfC might not be a good idea. However, it is the only idea on the table. Arbcom specifically recommended this as the only alternative to a full case. Also, while rare it is not unprecedented. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jerusalem is the model this was based on, and worked exceptionally well. I understand that science can change, which is why we moved away from the original Jerusalem model (binding for 3 years) to this more flexible one (binding until an equally strong consensus). Science changes, but not quickly. No single study is going to come out and completely shock the scientific community and reverse the scientific consensus. If it is to change, more likely it will be a pattern of studies over months or years, with plenty of time to hold an RFC. Those requesting the RfC initially wanted the 3 years, but it was I who suggested this as a concession to your point of view. Please meet us half way.

Finally, the fullprotection. I warned 24 hours in advance that I would do that, and I still think it was for the best. The situation there was spiraling out of control, with most comments not even about the proposals. It also gives Coffee a chance to catch up on the two months of discussion. However, if the participants are willing to keep their comments strictly about how exactly to improve the RfC itself, I would be willing to archive all existing threads, create one new thread for final improvements, and unprotect it. However, if things start devolving again, I'll go back to the original plan. Is this compromise acceptable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Wordsmith (talk • contribs)

• The Wordsmith, several points:

1. The doxxing threat needs to be further investigated. Laser brain may know who did it, but if it was an anonymous emailer, it could be someone trying to make the other "side" look bad, a false flag. But as he described it, he made it sound as though it had come from those opposed to the RfC. That is very prejudicial, so it needs to be clarified, so that those opposed to the RfC are not unfairly tarnished.
2. It has appeared to me, from my very brief look at this, that you and Laser brain have not been even-handed. You were big on "no aspersions," but when I was personally attacked, including by Kingofaces who posted blatant falsehoods, you did nothing. But Laser brain warned Petrarchan over a very mild comment. I have nothing but respect for both of you, but I believe you have been misled as to what is happening here.
3. I don't know who wrote the proposals, but they include, yet again, a misrepresentation of the position of the World Health Organization. Are misrepresentations going to be presented to the community, which won't be in a position to unpick everything? (Pinging Casliber because he has mentioned sourcing issues.)
4. Just as people were pointing these problems out to you, you locked the page.
5. If a misleading version that favours American industry gets locked in place in the articles, the media will take notice. That will lead to negative press attention for Wikipedia, for the individuals involved, and for Monsanto, who will be blamed even though they had nothing to do with it.
6. That someone would have requested an issue in science be locked down for three years should have been a red flag. This is different in kind, not only in degree, from the Jerusalem issue.
7. Most importantly, there is no trouble at any of the articles. There is no need to lock anything in place. If there's a problem with the sentences in question, it can be sorted out by the normal editing process. If there are people causing a problem with that, topic ban them.

SarahSV ^(talk) 15:27, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for User:Basketballfan12

Background

Basketballfan12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Beginning May 19, 2016, at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association#User:Basketballfan12_-_creating_non-notable_NBA_bio_stubs, Basketballfan12 has been flagged for their track record of creating biographies of non-notable sportspeople, which has placed an undue burden on the community to patrol, nominate, and discuss pages for deletion.

The following AfDs on Basketballfan12 created bios have been closed as "Delete":

Basketball-related:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brian Pauga
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Presson
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steve Swetoha
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nick Mazzella
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bubba Barrage
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bruce Wilson (basketball)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brad Seymour (basketball)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jordan Brady (basketball)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steve Swetoha
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maxie Esho
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Capers
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dylan Murphy (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark Daigneault
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brian Walsh (basketball)

Baseball related:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack Marder
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Perlman
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oren Gal
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Orr Gottleib
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeremy Gould

The following have been speedy deleted:

• Template:Northern Arizona Suns
• Jarrell Christian
• Matt Woodley

Multiple editors have reached out to User:Basketballfan12, but the editor generally not respond, with few edits to talk namespace, and user talk namespace edits generally limited to blanking their own talk page.

Since the discussion on May 19 was started, they have since created more new sports bios at Steve Brown (outfielder), Nate Fish, both of which are dubious of meeting WP:GNG with insufficient independent sources.

Proposal

Unless Basketballfan12 finally engages the community and addresses these concerns, I am proposing a topic ban on any creation of sports-related pages (articles, templates, etc) by Basketballfan12. They are free to create pages in the Draft namespace, where other editors can move the proposed page to the main namespace. Basketballfan12 can request a lift of the ban once they have sufficiently demonstrated an understanding of Wikipedia's notability criteria. —Bagumba (talk) 02:26, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Please note that there are at least 18 other pages created by this user that are currently undergoing active AfD discussions (I will not link them here due to WP:CANVASSING considerations, but I thought this might be relevant information). Full disclosure, I nominated these articles (and many of those listed above) for deletion after finding that this user had created many articles that did not meet notability guidelines. This user has not shown up at any of the AfD discussions, nor interacted with me on talk pages and appears to have no interest in doing so, yet continues to create new articles. Unless Basketballfan12 interacts with the community and displays an understanding and a willingness to fully consider the notability guidelines before creating new articles in the future, I would support the above sanctions.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  03:44, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Please note that I missed that less than half an hour before my above reply this user did respond on one of the active AfD pages so I've struck the above comment about it. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Makris.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  03:59, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

For the record, it was Basketballfan12's first ever comment at an AfD, and it was an hour after they were notified of this AN discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 05:24, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your concern's a ban is too harsh, We will respond to all future questions regarding sources Basketballfan12 (talk) 14:59, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

@Basketballfan12: Wait a second - who exactly is 'we'? Are you a paid editor or is this a shared account? Katie^talk 15:09, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gamaliel and others closed

An arbitration case regarding Gamaliel and others has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

1. Gamaliel is admonished for multiple breaches of Wikipedia policies and guidelines including for disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, removing a speedy deletion notice from a page he created, casting aspersions, and perpetuating what other editors believed to be a BLP violation.
2. DHeyward and Gamaliel are indefinitely prohibited from interacting with or discussing each other anywhere on Wikipedia, subject to the usual exemptions.
3. DHeyward (talk · contribs) is admonished for engaging in incivility and personal attacks on other editors. He is reminded that all editors are expected to engage respectfully and civilly with each other and to avoid making personal attacks.
4. For conduct which was below the standard expected of an administrator — namely making an incivil and inflammatory close summary on ANI, in which he perpetuated the perceived BLP violation and failed to adequately summarise the discussion — JzG is admonished.
5. Arkon is reminded that edit warring, even if exempt, is rarely an alternative to discussing the dispute with involved editors, as suggested at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.
6. The community is encouraged to hold an RfC to supplement the existing WP:BLPTALK policy by developing further guidance on managing disputes about material involving living persons when that material appears outside of article space and is not directly related to article-content decisions.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 03:38, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gamaliel and others closed