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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Inappropriate Article creation by Onceinawhile

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ain Jalut
• Talk:Well of Harod#Common Name

On 22 March 2020, Onceinawhile moved (without any discussion) the article Well of Harod to 'Ain Jalut. At that time, he was apparently quite ok with the content of Well of Harod under the name of 'Ain Jalut. This undiscussed moved was contested and undone by Shrike on 7 April 2020‎ , and subsequently, a discussion ensued on that article's talk page regarding the common name, the result of which was to keep the name Well of Harod. Unable to get his way in that discussion, Onceinawhile came to an existing article - Ain Jalut - which was a redirect, and created what is essentially a duplicate of the Well of Harod article there, moving much of that article's content to the former redirect. when I objected, he edit warred his version back in. This is a blatant attempt to get around the result of the previous discussion. Onceinawhie should be sanctioned for this, and this article returned to a redirect. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 21:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

See discussion at Talk:Ain Jalut. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:55, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

There was quite disruptive creation of article by Onceinawhile it was pretty clear that he will have no majority to move the article to his preferred tittle so he created this WP:POVFORK --Shrike (talk) 22:12, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Meh, use AFD, will be deleted shortly. Use AE if you really think sanctions are in order. Looks more silly than malicious though. AlmostFrancis (talk) 00:09, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The user is not some newbie he knew very well what he is doing --Shrike (talk) 05:38, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Shrike, in addition, he went and changed many redirects that used to go to Well of Harod to `Ain Jalut. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

• The reason for Well of Harod and Ain Jalut to have separate articles is that modern scholarly opinion is that they are not the same place. This was the outcome of an investigation of the sources at Talk:Well of Harod. The only thing disruptive around here is this report. Zero^talk 06:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Zero0000, It really doesn't matter if a biblical well of harod is different place what matters is that the WP:commonname of place known as Ain Jalut is Well of Harod and the original article was about that place. The creation was disruptive attempt to circumvent the move procedure Shrike (talk) 07:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

It is perfectly reasonable, and not disruptive, to have two articles for two locations. The names of the articles are subject to discussion like everything else, but article creation does not need consensus in advance. Zero^talk 08:05, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

• There is an AfD, would seem the best place to sort it out would be there.Selfstudier (talk) 11:33, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

500/30 ARBPIA enforcement request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hi, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ain Jalut there has been a revert dispute about whether an IP with an edit history of 5 edits should be able to participate. Per WP:A/I/PIA IP editors are not allowed to edit at articles or discussion pages which relate "to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted". The article under discussion is about a place in Israel named Ain Jalut in English and Arabic, which was the place in Palestinian history where the Mamluks defeated the Mongols; those who propose the deletion of the article believe it overlaps with the Biblical / Hebrew concept of the Well of Harod.

Please could an admin come and take a quick look before things get out of hand?[1] Onceinawhile (talk) 14:37, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

This page had nothing to do with The Israeli-Arab conflict, and it is instructive to see this discussion to get a better understanding of what this disruptive editor is trying to do here. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 14:44, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the attempt to get an opposing editor a topic ban,[2] and now the support of what could be a sockpuppet.[3] Personally I see these as perhaps the best indicators that this topic is related to the PIA area... Onceinawhile (talk) 14:58, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Ain Jalut, and the 13th century Battle of Ain Jalut, between the Mamluk Sultanate (Cairo) and the Mongol Ilkhanate, has nothing to do with Israel or Palestine. Israel was created nearly 700 years after that battle. This is way outside of PIA. The Well of Harod is also not part of PIA. It's an Old Testament thing. "PIA" is construed broadly but not so broadly as to cover everything from the Old Testament or everything that ever happened in the Middle East. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:26, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure, but this AfD is about names. Names are a core part of the conflict, as established by numerous sources: “This paper deals with the symbolic role of place-names as expressions of ideological values. Names are symbolic elements of landscape that reflect abstract or concrete national and local sentiments and goals. In the case of Israel, the selection of place-names has become a powerful tool for reinforcing competing national Zionist ideologies. Implicit in this competition are two major Israeli placename themes: the message of essentialism or continuity, and epochalism or change. Essentialism is expressed in Hebrew placenames and in a variety of other symbols that project Israel as the sole heir to the Holy Land. In this context, Biblical and Talmudic placenames are reintroduced or reinforce the bonds between the Jewish community in Israel”.[4]

Onceinawhile (talk) 16:39, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

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@El C: could you please reconsider closing this on the basis of my last comment (I started writing this before you closed it). There is no doubt at all that the AfD is motivated by this element of the conflict. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the dispute spilling over to ARBPIA-related arguments. Please do not re-open or add to closed reports, that is not how WP:CLOSECHALLENGE works. El_C 16:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Retaliatory SPI?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please note this possibly retaliatory SPI report filed by Onceinawhile against JungerMan Chips Ahoy!, which was closed as "Unrelated". The supposed sock, Infinity Knight, last month AfD'd an article created by Onceinawhile, which was Speedily Kept. The appearance is that Onceinawhile feels that anyone who disagrees with them must be sockpuppets. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:43, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Filing SPI requests on suspected socks is normal practice and Once gave a valid reason for suspicion. (The only reason I don't file SPI requests is that my sock detection skills are negligible.) The case was dismissed, so be it. It isn't clear why BMK thinks that reporting someone for exercising the right of every editor is a good idea. Zero^talk 02:40, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The filing made no sense whatsoever, as the discussion on the SPI made clear. Reporting a possibly retaliatory SPI is a good idea because, if true, it's disruptive, and, in this case, appears to be in line with Onceinawhile's other reported behaviors. Why do you think that it's a good idea for an admin to make excuses for an editor's bad behavior simply because they may both be on the same "side" of a contentious subject area? I would think you'd be better off, having expressed your opinion at the AfD -- which is, of course, your right -- not continuing to put your personal reputation on the line for the apparent bad behavior of another editor, and allowing the processes here and at AfD to take their course. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:57, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I was also disturbed by this comment you made on the AfD in question, in which you blew off the comment of an IP who registered an opinion opposite from yours. Is this how admins are told to treat IPs now, telling them "IPs who come along and don't even bother to provide reasons should of course be ignored"? I was going to overlook your remark until you chose to involve yourself further in this matter with the snide comment above. I think you are too personally invested in this dispute and need to back off from it, since it seems to be provoking to you to behavior not becoming of an admin, frankly. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:07, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Wow, blowing off the IP at the AfD is beyond the pale, even more so for an admin. Thankfully, the IP responded with a reasonable rationale. I may be a bit biased, as I edited as a dynamic IP for nearly a decade, but I was never blown off so callously. I hope Zero takes this to heart. Regarding the SPI, it was thought to be legitimate enough for a CU to perform a checkuser on it. So maybe it's a wash? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 03:44, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Have to agree with Bison X here. If the SPI was without merit or "filing made no sense whatsover", then a check should not have been performed. Apparently User:TonyBallioni felt there was enough to warrant a check. Maybe because of ARBPIA concerns, I don't know. Ultimately I find it hard to imagine that a single SPI, which had enough merit to warrant a check, is enough for any action. If there is evidence of a pattern of such alleged retaliatory SPIs maybe there would be something to discuss, but no evidence for that has been presented. Nil Einne (talk) 04:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Dormant account comes out of nowhere to suggest an AfD on an article the other isn’t a fan of, they have similar ES features, and both are commenting on an AfD as the only two that aren’t opposed to it. Not enough to block, but I think enough to check. They 100% aren’t the same, though.

I thought the SPI was a bit weird being so late, but my reason for running the check anyway was that InfinityKnight looked a lot like a sock, and if they were and were one that is only used on occasion, there was potential for future disruption, so a block would be justified to prevent that. We normally don’t file SPIs this late, but the circumstances were suspicious enough that I thought using the tool might be useful. It was in that it told us they weren’t the same. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:18, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I do not fault Tony for running the check: he clearly evaluated the information he saw and went from there, as a CU should. However, the filing of the SPI by Onceinawhile could still have been an retaliatory move even if there was reason to check once it had been filed - it all depends on what Onceinawhile's motives were in filing it. This is especially the case given the time lapse.

The point here is that Onceinawhile's cumulative behavior has been questionable, and while probably not worthy of being sanctioned at this time, it is troubling enough that Onceinawhile ought to take some time to reconsider their actions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: you wrote the following: "The appearance is that Onceinawhile feels that anyone who disagrees with them must be sockpuppets"; "in line with Onceinawhile's other reported behaviors"; "Onceinawhile's cumulative behavior has been questionable". Please be specific on what evidence you base these aspersions. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

If there is no need for administrative attention, then there is no point for this discussion. It would have been better to have talked to Onceinawhile directly if you had concerns over their behaviour. And and I stand by my point, there's let reason to worry too much about this one SPI when there was sufficient concerns to merit a check. I'd note that you've provided no explanation for how your claim "The filing made no sense whatsoever" reconciles with the fact that there was in fact, and it seems like even you agree, sufficient concerns to merit a check. Whether or not all of what was said in the SPI "made sense", clearly some part of it did otherwise there would not have been a check. Nil Einne (talk) 10:37, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Please note that the SPI was created by me on 21:39, 2 May 2020‎. Jungerman then opened the above ANI against me at 21:52, 2 May 2020 and then nominated the article for deletion at 22:24, 2 May 2020. Perhaps @Beyond My Ken: could clarify his accusation here on the basis of this timeline. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:47, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I opened the Afd at your suggestion. what sort of game are you playing here? JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 13:03, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ARBPIA matters belong on AE

Regardless if I was wrong with my assessment of the article falling under ARBPIA, we generally discourage ARBPIA matters spilling over to ANI. AE is a better forum for that, so it's best brought there, to that structured place, rather than having a freeform discussion here. I have no objection to reopening this dispute there. But here, it is a problem. El_C 13:07, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I think there are wider issues that are not capable of being dealt with at AE. That AfD is a microcosm of all that is wrong in that topic area – involved editors with a well-established POV !voting in highly predictable ways are able to dominate arguments, or least force them into no consensus positions that prevents any change (on any given AfD, RfC, RM etc, I could predict with at least 95% confidence how at least ten editors from the topic area would !vote). Every single editor from outside the topic area who has commented on the AfD so far (and who can probably be assumed to be unbiased) have come to the same conclusion, but this context is rarely taken into account by closing admins (who won't be familiar with the respective POVs of the involved parties). This is one of the reasons I virtually gave up on editing in that topic area. Number 57 10:31, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I strongly agree. I also gave up on the topic area for these same reasons. Now I dip my toe into this article, and I'm already in an edit war, with an admin, who tells me on his talk page he doesn't have to follow BRD because it's not a policy, and that my revert, not his addition, was the "bold" edit in the cycle. Editing in this topic area is unbelievable. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 14:50, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Levivich, That was a recent arbcom case about the area it shame that you and User:Number_57 didn't submit evidence --Shrike (talk) 15:54, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Shrike, tbh I have no faith in arbcom, or AE or ANI or anyone else, fixing this. I sat out PIA4 after being very disappointed with the Poland case that preceded it (I think we had like four arbs at that point). Maybe this year's much larger committee will do better, but I don't really get the sense that there is either the interest or the will to make a structural change for the better. The only structural change for the better that can be made in PIA, as with AP2 and EE and all the other highly problematic DS areas, is to TBAN like every editor who is active (about 5-10 editors I think), which was done once a while ago in some other topic area (I forget which), but a "group TBAN" will be impossible to get consensus for, anywhere, from anyone. In Race and Intelligence, things have improved recently, but only (IMO) because 3+ editors were TBANed and/or blocked, one at a time, and it took a months of evidence and megabytes of discussion, and those editors weren't protected by cabals. I am resigned that Wikipedia's coverage of Middle East topics will never e anything other than a battleground for a few editors with strong political views to endlessly fight with each other. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I think the notion that ANI can better address ARBPIA disputes than AE is a fantasy. Otherwise, ANI is not for aimless venting. El_C 15:57, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

El C, with respect, this is the right page to discuss chronic problems. We can't have that discussion at AE. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:07, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

When that discussion never leads to resolution, and just amounts to aimless venting, then no, not for the ARBPIA topic area. El_C 16:12, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Levivich, El C is right notihng will happen here the only mechanism to deal with global problem is ARBCOM Shrike (talk) 16:14, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

There's not going to be an ARBPIA5 so soon after ARBPIA4. The Committee is likely to just refer anything outstanding to AE, which is still the venue to submit any potential ARBPIA violations. El_C 16:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

(e/c) The problem is that solving the problem I refer to above will have to involve something quite radical – such as only having admins familiar with the topic area and its regulars close discussions, banning the regulars from !voting in formal discussions like AfDs, RMs, RfCs etc, or somehow separating out the !votes of the regulars so that closing admins can see what uninvolved (and probably neutral) editors think. I would be pleasantly surprised if any of these were implemented, but realistically, I doubt ARBCOM would be willing to go that far. Number 57 16:30, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Number 57, I think simple matters can be dispensed with outside of AE. Not everything ARBPIA needs a full blown AE report. Sure, someone can open an AE action, but not everyone is familiar with AE and an admin shouldn't close an ANI report when there is a clear behavioral issue. Another issue that is common is whenever there is a new editor, right away that person is tagged team and assumed to be a sock and harassed by questions of "have you ever edited before" or "what is your other Wikipedia name?" These should not be allowed to happen and it has been going on for years. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 23:49, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

ARBPIA disputes almost never end up being "simple" — we have kept it out of ANI for all these years, so I don't see why we should change that now. Some of us remember the endless ARBPIA threads on ANI — a path we do not want to tread on again. No thank you. El_C 13:46, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Levivich: But what are the chronic let alone intractable, problems? All I see in this thread is some silly complaint over whether or not it was appropriate to create an article after trying and failing with an RM, and and even sillier complaint about an alleged retaliatory SPI where the CU felt there was enough to warranty a check in part because of the persistent problems in the area. For the first one, the obvious answer is it's complicated whether they should have created the article, but it doesn't matter much since it can be sorted out at AfD. For the second one, the answer which I've provided is that even if it is, it's not worth worrying about in this case as a single instance and given that there was enough to warrant a check, and frankly it's almost going to be impossible to find good evidence anyway.

If this was not an ARBPIA case, it would be an extremely clear cut case of "WTF are you bringing this shit to ANI?" since there's clearly no cause for action here. If things need to be handled different because of ARBPIA concerns and we need to be much more aggressive in shutting down editors for what are at worse minor issues that would not normally require administrative attention, that seems to be all the more reason to use AE. The only exception I can think of is a very simple case where an admin will issue some sanction and there will be no complaints or concerns from anyone else about such an action.

I personally stay away from the area, not because of what other editors do but because I have strong personal feelings about certain things which I feel means I am not a good fit so I have no real idea what is going on other than the odd stuff which I see here or read elsewhere or on those few occasions I do fit a content discussion. But still I can't help but agree with El C for the reasons I've outlined. We should not be making exceptions to the norms of ANI in precisely what behavioural problems we will take action against, if there is need for that then AE is a better bet.

I'd note if there are problems with that AfD, it's unclear to me what this has to do with any of the complaints in this thread unless there is a claim that the creator was aware of the problems with AfD and was taking advantage of it. But it's likely to be impossible to find any real evidence that was the intent. And further, even if we were to sanction the editor over it, we're missing the forest from the trees.

If there are problems with AfD in the area, I'm not sure how we deal with it. Arbcom is one possibility although others above seem to disagree. AN (not ANI) is another possibility. But that needs to be a focused discussion on the specific problems at ANI with appropriate diffs etc presenting the evidence and probably some proposal for significant change e.g. a number of blocks or other sanctions or limitations, rather than a discussion over a single editor creating an article or opening an SPI.

Nil Einne (talk) 04:01, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

@Nil Einne: The chronic/intractable problem I referred to is the one N57 describes above. There is more to this dispute than what's in the above report (and yet more that's happened since)--this report was two small slices of a wider issue--and for my part I'm still contemplating whether and where to raise the wider issue. (Not in this post-close thread.) Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:57, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Slow moving edit war at Order of the Golden Fleece

• Order of the Golden Fleece (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Not sure what's going on, but there's a slow-moving edit war going on at Order of the Golden Fleece that may need some outside eyes. I don't have enough background to assess the situation, but I also don't want to go in there and exacerbate a problem that would be better diffused by someone with more background knowledge. Eyes would be useful here. --Jayron32 18:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the last edits:

The user editing them from an Austrian IP address is swapping the order of everything, always with the Austrian point of view first. The Habsburg branch is NOT NECESSARILY more legitimate as it was not the originator of the order (the House of Valois-Burgundy was). The order is not property of any family, and keeps changing according to the throne that has been granting it (Spain for the last half a millennium). King Charles II gave all his succession rights to Philip V, a Bourbon, passing the Grand Mastership to the kings of Spain (regardless of the house).

If that were not enough, Austria is a republic, Spain continues to have a constitutional monarchy where the Order of the Golden Fleece is officially recognised.

Furthermore, the fact that all the constitutional monarchs (Queen Elisabeth, Emperor of Japan, Kings of the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Tsar of Bulgaria etc...) are knights of the SPANISH ORDER of the Golden Fleece undermines the Austrian.

Lastly, I can see where the IP user is coming from when he says the Austrian order has continued with its tradition of granting the fleece ONLY to Christians, whereas the Spanish hasn't. This however does not mean the Spanish order has developed into an order of Merit per se. If you look at the members, all except 4 are/have been/will be kings (certainly not merit, but condition of royal birth).

With all this being said, I don't intend to not include the Austrian branch, which has absolutely got arguments in favor of its legitimacy, but it is bluntly evident that the article should follow an order of relevance, and so the Spanish branch should be the first mentioned. Throughout history, I'm certain the Spanish branch has been the "most desired" and most recognised (Duke of Wellington, Napoleons, British Royal Family etc...) whereas the Austrian has been granted mostly between the Habsburgs and the minor Germanic princes (which by the way doesn't make it better or worse, its simply a fact).

--Cantabrucu (talk) 10:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Hallo!

I think there are some mistakes about the order:

For one thing, the order belongs exclusively to neither the Spanish throne nor the Habsburg throne. The order had its own statutes when it was founded. At the end of the War of the Spanish Succession there was a discussion about who could take over the order. According to the statutes of the order, the rights came to the Habsburg house. The new Spanish royal family did not want to do without it and continued to cultivate the order. In any case, the Habsburgs took over the archive and the treasure, in particular they also took over the rights to Burgundy in accordance with the peace agreement. Since then there have been 2 branches of the order.

The Spanish branch then had some breaks in the history of the order in the 19th and 20th centuries, because the order was apparently not lived continuously during the Spanish Republic. Austria, for example, is now also a republic and has legally established the Republic of Austria that the Habsburg Order of the Golden Fleece has its own legal personality and that the Habsburg family is currently entitled to the award.

The Spanish branch has developed differently from the Habsburg branch, which refers to the original statutes and lives in the sense of a knighthood. For example, the Spanish branch honored the fascist Franco. According to the literature, the Spanish branch has developed into a bare medal of merit because the knights' community is no longer cultivated accordingly.

One can always argue about the historical and current importance of the members, especially when one considers that the Habsburg family ruled the Holy Roman Empire for a long time, then an empire, while at many times Spain was not a royalty. It is also interesting that there are historically and currently members who belong to the two branches.

It is not an Austrian, Spanish, Habsburg, Bourbon, Burgundian or Dutch view - no, it should be a scientific one. It doesn't matter whether the one aristocrat is first or second in the article. The source of information and scientific literature on the subject are decisive for me. In principle, of course, the order in Spain as well as in Central Europe is particularly relevant. Whether Spain or Central Europe is more important is not my issue.

In any case, I tried to supplement and edit the article according to my sources in order to pursue the Wikipedia project further.

Greetings from Corona Vienna - stay healthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.154.68.98 (talk • contribs)

• This conversation needs to happen at the article talk page, and also needs resolution BEFORE either of you edit the text again. Please continue it there. --Jayron32 12:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Aust church.

T*U (talk) 12:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• At this point I think we need an Arbcom case on all topics beginning with Aust -- Australia, Austria, australopithecus, austerity. If problems continue we'll expand to auspicious. EEng 12:35, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@EEng: How about pro wrestler Austin, Stone Cold Steve?--WaltCip (talk) 17:07, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Hi Jayron32! I have done so at the talk page, but this IP user keeps editing the article. Cheers. --Cantabrucu (talk) 18:43, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• I'm semiprotecting Order of the Golden Fleece for one month since we can't get any of the various IPs to comment on the article talk page. Will leave a note on the talk page and perhaps whoever is behind the IPs will open negotiations there. EdJohnston (talk) 22:10, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Personal attack

• Qumranhöhle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please, I just need someone to intervene, since recently It has been told to me: "You are a troll, and I won't fedd trolls. It is as simple as that", "go and learn to quote what is relevant; go and learn how to quote; GO AND LEARN", "Why don't you stop pestering wikipedia with your sloppy nonsense?", "don't you understand the difference between a journal article and a book?", "no reviews, no articles - and learn how to give correct bibliographic information". I've tried to talk to the editor, but I don't think that's possible anymore, and I'd appreciate a third opinion. He's a good editor, but I think he uses an aggressive tone. I know I'm not a perfect editor, but I'm learning every day, and I try to be a better editor based on my experiences. Best regards.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 23:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

See here. Tell me, Jairon, how many of your "articles" have been deleted? How many of your edits would have been worth deleting? --Qumranhöhle (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what something on another Wikiproject has to do with the English language Wikipedia. Canterbury Tail talk 23:46, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Right, maybe the problematic behaviour of a user in one version is not seen as problematic in another version. Different wikiprojects certainly have different policies and different understandings of quality. For me, if an editor after many years still has not understood some basic principles of quality, he remains a problematic user in whatever language version. Jairon has never responded to any critical comments here until he recently started to haunt the German language version and some users there immediately recognised his problematic behaviour. Now he blames those who insist on some quality standards and principles like NPOV. Funny! --Qumranhöhle (talk) 00:07, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I notified the editor on his discussion page, but he deleted it.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 23:44, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

• User:Qumranhöhle has been here for ten years, yet has made only 113 edits, most of which appear to be edit-warring and/or calling other editor's work "nonsense" or worse. I am unconvinced that they are a net positive, to be honest. Black Kite (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

That's because this is not the language version I usually edit (unlike Jairon I do not leave textual deserts in wikiprojects which are not my mother tongue and let others guess what my gibberish could have meant), unless I try to prevent nonsense (yes, I use the word again). --Qumranhöhle (talk) 00:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Both editors are guilty of edit warring -- see [5] -- and should stop. If they don't an admin should give both a time out. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• It also seems as if this dispute has been imported from German Wikipedia. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:25, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: 1. No, the problems with Jairon started here, until he recently started editing de.wp, i.e. he imported his problematic editing to another version. Now he he got problems there he tries to trouble here again, i.e. this is a reimport. 2. Very funny the difference between the treatment here and the case below. Probably, I should simply have been here first and write (and give the many references): user:Jairon keeps adding unsourced edits, his references are fake references (they give wrong information or do not refer to what they seemingly should refer), he does not react to reasonable arguments and pushes his POV. Every article misses minimal quality standards, several were nominated for speedy deletion or otherwise deleted. Please could an admin explain to the user what wikipedia is and what not. Thanks! --Qumranhöhle (talk) 07:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Could it be demonstrated how "he keeps adding unsourced edits, his references are fake references (they give wrong information or do not refer to what they seemingly should refer), he does not react to reasonable arguments and pushes his POV"? It is true that some of my articles have been deleted, but that is no justification for personal attack. You guys figure out if my work here at Wikipedia has been bad.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 15:54, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Agree with Beyond My Ken. Both editors need a timeout; the violation of WP:3RR is rather obvious and egregious and the only talk page discussion I can find is not particularly edifying. If there's the same problem on German Wikipedia that is even more grounds for action; though I guess German WP is able to deal with this issue if it exists on their end without our help. 107.190.33.254 (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

In the German wikipedia user: Jairon was banned for 1 year from using the main namespace for his articles. It seems, there were enough users there that had a similar impression of the quality of this user's articles. All of them were "translations" from the english ones which likewise says something about their quality. If insisting on some standards counts as a personal attack here, I won't waste more time here. --Qumranhöhle (talk) 21:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I have advised the editors there and asked for their input on this matter (my German is rather limited). FWIW, the ban on the German WP is given in plain English on Jairon's talk page there; copied below:

"Ban" message from German WP

Because of this report the following edit restrictions now apply at until May 6, 2021: You may not create articles directly in the main namespace. Instead you can prepare them in your own user namespace. From there you may not transfer them to the main namespace yourself, instead you have to find helpers who have „aktive Sichterrechte“ (review rights) to work with you on your articles and confirm that they meet quality standards language-wise for articles in German Wikipedia. They can then transfer your articles to the main namespace for you thereby taking responsibility that they meet those requirements. Violations of those edit restrictions may lead to an immediate indefinite block.

Hopefully this clarifies matters a bit 107.190.33.254 (talk) 22:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

As the administrator on the German Wikipedia who decided on the edit restriction I want to make clear that the reason for the restriction was solely that Jairon's articles were written in very bad German. Their German skills are very limited as they admitted themselves. I hope that this way they can contribute productively to dewp. The alternative was a WP:CIR-block. --Count Count (talk) 06:30, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Since German wikipedia was mentioned, let me mention that recently the same user made a personal attack again Diskussion:JHWH.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 18:32, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

"Could it be demonstrated how "he keeps adding unsourced edits, his references are fake references (they give wrong information or do not refer to what they seemingly should refer), he does not react to reasonable arguments and pushes his POV"?" Sure, no problem, although I am not sure if this is the right page: A random example, Papyrus Fouad 266:

• the sentence "but according Albert Pietersma it is an early recension towards the Masoretic Text (i.e., Deuteronomy 22:9)" has a reference that leads to an article by A. Lange (Armin Lange, Matthias Weigold, József Zsengellér, Emanuel Tov, From Qumran to Aleppo: a discussion with Emanuel Tov about the textual history of Jewish scriptures in honor of his 65th birthday (Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 2009), p. 60.) A. Pietersma does not occur in this context.
• The quotation (?) "Unlike, "Kilpatrick and Tov... see no recension at work." leads to a review by someone completely different on a book by someone completely different. No page number is given. It is unclear, where this review was published (only on academia?).
• The next reference says "Sabine Bieberstein, Kornélia Buday, Ursula Rapp, Building bridges in a multifaceted Europe: religious origins, traditions (Peeters Publishers, 2006), p. 60." Nowhere is the name of the real author or the article given ot which the link leads. Even worse: The two sentences this reference belong to claim that A. Pietersma has said such and such. But the referenec does not lead to Pietersma. and so on and so on. This is exactly what I would call fake reference and sloppiness. This is certainly not a gain for Wikipedia. And I am happy that at least in the German language version there are enough people to see that the same way. --Qumranhöhle (talk) 14:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Pattern of Making Unexplained Reverts

• NomanPK44 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

NomanPK44 continues to make unexplained reverts of those edits that have been carefully explained by the editors who he reverts. Starting with this example from February which was a POV revert of this explained edit. NomanPK44 continues to engage in this type of disruption,[6][7][8][9][10] even after having been warned that he must WP:COMMUNICATE others and avoid making unexplained reverts. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 01:27, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment The disruption appears to be taking place on articles obviously related to India and Pakistan, and you've already warned the user of the relevant DS in the past, so maybe take this to WP:AE? M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 08:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Not worth it. He is currently editing but ignoring this complaint. This is more of a general issue than proficiency in editing a particular subject that's why I reported here. After all same admins who observe AE also observe this noticeboard. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 05:46, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Personal attack

• Qumranhöhle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please, I just need someone to intervene, since recently It has been told to me: "You are a troll, and I won't fedd trolls. It is as simple as that", "go and learn to quote what is relevant; go and learn how to quote; GO AND LEARN", "Why don't you stop pestering wikipedia with your sloppy nonsense?", "don't you understand the difference between a journal article and a book?", "no reviews, no articles - and learn how to give correct bibliographic information". I've tried to talk to the editor, but I don't think that's possible anymore, and I'd appreciate a third opinion. He's a good editor, but I think he uses an aggressive tone. I know I'm not a perfect editor, but I'm learning every day, and I try to be a better editor based on my experiences. Best regards.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 23:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

See here. Tell me, Jairon, how many of your "articles" have been deleted? How many of your edits would have been worth deleting? --Qumranhöhle (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what something on another Wikiproject has to do with the English language Wikipedia. Canterbury Tail talk 23:46, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Right, maybe the problematic behaviour of a user in one version is not seen as problematic in another version. Different wikiprojects certainly have different policies and different understandings of quality. For me, if an editor after many years still has not understood some basic principles of quality, he remains a problematic user in whatever language version. Jairon has never responded to any critical comments here until he recently started to haunt the German language version and some users there immediately recognised his problematic behaviour. Now he blames those who insist on some quality standards and principles like NPOV. Funny! --Qumranhöhle (talk) 00:07, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I notified the editor on his discussion page, but he deleted it.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 23:44, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

• User:Qumranhöhle has been here for ten years, yet has made only 113 edits, most of which appear to be edit-warring and/or calling other editor's work "nonsense" or worse. I am unconvinced that they are a net positive, to be honest. Black Kite (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

That's because this is not the language version I usually edit (unlike Jairon I do not leave textual deserts in wikiprojects which are not my mother tongue and let others guess what my gibberish could have meant), unless I try to prevent nonsense (yes, I use the word again). --Qumranhöhle (talk) 00:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Both editors are guilty of edit warring -- see [11] -- and should stop. If they don't an admin should give both a time out. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• It also seems as if this dispute has been imported from German Wikipedia. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:25, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: 1. No, the problems with Jairon started here, until he recently started editing de.wp, i.e. he imported his problematic editing to another version. Now he he got problems there he tries to trouble here again, i.e. this is a reimport. 2. Very funny the difference between the treatment here and the case below. Probably, I should simply have been here first and write (and give the many references): user:Jairon keeps adding unsourced edits, his references are fake references (they give wrong information or do not refer to what they seemingly should refer), he does not react to reasonable arguments and pushes his POV. Every article misses minimal quality standards, several were nominated for speedy deletion or otherwise deleted. Please could an admin explain to the user what wikipedia is and what not. Thanks! --Qumranhöhle (talk) 07:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Could it be demonstrated how "he keeps adding unsourced edits, his references are fake references (they give wrong information or do not refer to what they seemingly should refer), he does not react to reasonable arguments and pushes his POV"? It is true that some of my articles have been deleted, but that is no justification for personal attack. You guys figure out if my work here at Wikipedia has been bad.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 15:54, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Agree with Beyond My Ken. Both editors need a timeout; the violation of WP:3RR is rather obvious and egregious and the only talk page discussion I can find is not particularly edifying. If there's the same problem on German Wikipedia that is even more grounds for action; though I guess German WP is able to deal with this issue if it exists on their end without our help. 107.190.33.254 (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

In the German wikipedia user: Jairon was banned for 1 year from using the main namespace for his articles. It seems, there were enough users there that had a similar impression of the quality of this user's articles. All of them were "translations" from the english ones which likewise says something about their quality. If insisting on some standards counts as a personal attack here, I won't waste more time here. --Qumranhöhle (talk) 21:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I have advised the editors there and asked for their input on this matter (my German is rather limited). FWIW, the ban on the German WP is given in plain English on Jairon's talk page there; copied below:

"Ban" message from German WP

Because of this report the following edit restrictions now apply at until May 6, 2021: You may not create articles directly in the main namespace. Instead you can prepare them in your own user namespace. From there you may not transfer them to the main namespace yourself, instead you have to find helpers who have „aktive Sichterrechte“ (review rights) to work with you on your articles and confirm that they meet quality standards language-wise for articles in German Wikipedia. They can then transfer your articles to the main namespace for you thereby taking responsibility that they meet those requirements. Violations of those edit restrictions may lead to an immediate indefinite block.

Hopefully this clarifies matters a bit 107.190.33.254 (talk) 22:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

As the administrator on the German Wikipedia who decided on the edit restriction I want to make clear that the reason for the restriction was solely that Jairon's articles were written in very bad German. Their German skills are very limited as they admitted themselves. I hope that this way they can contribute productively to dewp. The alternative was a WP:CIR-block. --Count Count (talk) 06:30, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Since German wikipedia was mentioned, let me mention that recently the same user made a personal attack again Diskussion:JHWH.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 18:32, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

"Could it be demonstrated how "he keeps adding unsourced edits, his references are fake references (they give wrong information or do not refer to what they seemingly should refer), he does not react to reasonable arguments and pushes his POV"?" Sure, no problem, although I am not sure if this is the right page: A random example, Papyrus Fouad 266:

• the sentence "but according Albert Pietersma it is an early recension towards the Masoretic Text (i.e., Deuteronomy 22:9)" has a reference that leads to an article by A. Lange (Armin Lange, Matthias Weigold, József Zsengellér, Emanuel Tov, From Qumran to Aleppo: a discussion with Emanuel Tov about the textual history of Jewish scriptures in honor of his 65th birthday (Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 2009), p. 60.) A. Pietersma does not occur in this context.
• The quotation (?) "Unlike, "Kilpatrick and Tov... see no recension at work." leads to a review by someone completely different on a book by someone completely different. No page number is given. It is unclear, where this review was published (only on academia?).
• The next reference says "Sabine Bieberstein, Kornélia Buday, Ursula Rapp, Building bridges in a multifaceted Europe: religious origins, traditions (Peeters Publishers, 2006), p. 60." Nowhere is the name of the real author or the article given ot which the link leads. Even worse: The two sentences this reference belong to claim that A. Pietersma has said such and such. But the referenec does not lead to Pietersma. and so on and so on. This is exactly what I would call fake reference and sloppiness. This is certainly not a gain for Wikipedia. And I am happy that at least in the German language version there are enough people to see that the same way. --Qumranhöhle (talk) 14:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

By chance, I came across the edit war Qumranhöhle and Jairon had at Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 5101 and asked Qumranhöhle about the reasons for his reverts (see talk page). In his answer, he alleged that Jairon had been banned from "editing in the German version of Wikipedia". After I told him that was untrue, he alleged that Jairon had been "banned from editing in the main namespace". After a second correction from my side he changed the first allegation to "editing in the German version of Wikipedia creating new articles in the German version of Wikipedia" without changing the second one. Rsk6400 (talk) 14:17, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I just saw that I duplicated this discussion. Don't know how it happened, would like to repair it if I knew how. Once again, sorry. Rsk6400 (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Your seem to overlook that I wrote here "banned for 1 year from using the main namespace for his articles" and that I admitted my (double) formulation error on the other page. The other page is an article discussion page where you had a question concening the article which I answered. You came there by chance and now by chance here? Sure! --Qumranhöhle (talk) 18:51, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Historic Hotels of America

I'm trying to convince User:Doncram that basing articles solely on promotional sources is not acceptable, but the message doesn't seem to have any effect. This is the umpteenth problem with Doncram and problematic article creations, and I don't see the point in trying to continue a one-on-one discussion about this. Basically, Doncram is creating a whole series of articles on "Historic Hotels of America", those listed in Draft:Historic Hotels of America. This page was in the mainspace, I moved it to draft because it was a working document containing visible text like "Any component specifically NRHP-listed?", "(doncram: the only Shingle Style one of all HHAs?)" or "Try Hilton Boston, Hilton Boston Downtown, Hilton Boston Downtown Faneuil Hall. " which are fine in project space or talk, but not in a mainspace article.

The discussion is at User talk:Doncram#Historic Hotels of America, where I noticed that the articles are sourced solely to the HHA website, and that the texts on this websuite seem to be provided directly by the hotel owners, i.e. aren't independent or neutral at all. E.g. Hotel Bethlehem is sourced only to this, which is basically a hotel booking site, not a neutral historic site:

• "Dining at this historic hotel is a pleasant experience with a casual elegant atmosphere and frequent live music accompaniment. Be on the lookout for any weird happenings, because with a hotel as old as Historic Hotel Bethlehem, there are sure to be some spooky, supernatural happenings."

Other examples are e.g. the Omni Berkshire Place, New York City, where the sole link says things like "The event planning team and tech team will work together to make sure everything runs smoothly on the big day and even be available the day of, in case anything should go awry. Best of all, free WiFi is modernly available throughout the historic Manhattan hotel.", or Dunhill Hotel ("Known for its gracious, personalized service, The Dunhill Hotel offers a boutique hotel experience in the heart of Uptown Charlotte."[12]), or ...

Note that the articles are neutrally written. My problem is that articles shouldn't be based on promotional, probably self-published sources (the HHA fronts these texts, but is unlikely to have edited or written them), and that such articles should be based on good, independent, factual sourcing. Doncram agrees that such sourcing exists ("HHA membership does indicate existence of substantial coverage and hence notability, and hence validity of Wikipedia article coverage of HHA places."), but argues that "It is nice to do so, but it is not immediately necessary to find additional other independent coverage about this place.", and when challenged about this states

• "And it doesn't truly matter whether HHA website is itself a fully great independent reliable source or not. Actually, no sourcing at all is required in Wikipedia articles, as you know. Subject to some qualifications, such as when another editor credibly questions accuracy of something. At this point, I believe you have zero specific complaint about any fact asserted in any of this."

They freely admit that their aim isn't even to be neutral and factual, but

• "Fine, yes, there is an obvious point to be made, which I guess you are making, that articles about hotels can be promotional. Which is not unambiguously bad, either; frankly it is somewhat a motivation for me and many other Wikipedia writers about historic sites to be "promotional" about them, in terms of wanting to explain what is of general interest about the places. And I and others do not begrudge links to bed & breakfast inn's own websites, say. I think it is not a bad thing, it is a good thing, to kind of support the commercial enterprises indirectly, for their public value in preserving and presenting about history of general interest."

Can some of you please make it clear to Doncram that no, we are not here to promote businesses, we should not use self-published or promotional sources as the main or only source for our articles, and all articles should indeed be sourced adequately right from the start. Fram (talk) 12:14, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I just tagged a bunch of them with {{Thirdparty}}. The website used as a only source also mentions the membership of said hotel and is far from the kind of significant, independent coverage in independent sources Wikipedia requires. One might almost suspect a COI. Kleuske (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I personally don't think Doncram has a COI, he just wants to write articles for all historic places, and doesn't seem to care about basic sourcing policies or guidelines as long as he can reach that goal. Fram (talk) 12:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

You’re probably right. Kleuske (talk) 13:09, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

This seems like a non-problem to me, if the articles are about notable subjects, then what's the issue? Different people at Wikipedia have different skill sets and different interests and it is what makes Wikipedia work so well. Some people just clean up grammar and spelling, some people are good at digging up references. Some people have an interest in beetles or renaissance musical instruments, or whatever. If his skill set is in finding article subjects and starting them, and then letting someone with a different skill set fill them out later, so what. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and demanding that someone is sanctioned at ANI because they don't have a skill set that you personally don't think is necessary is beyond arrogant. He's doing nothing wrong, IMHO, and should be left alone. I can't come up with a reason for us to block or ban him for anything based on the evidence presented here. --Jayron32 13:17, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe Fram is asking for a block or a ban, merely for Doncram to fix the issue. An article is that is purely sourced to promotional sources should not be in mainspace. If these hotels are genuinely notable it should not be difficult to find independent sources for them, it's simple laziness not to do so. It's not even difficult - look at this source that's in the Omni Berkshire article (obviously promotional), and then look at this one, from the worldwide version of the same website, that is 90% factual (and it's more detailed). Why not just use that one? I've fixed that one, which took me about 2 mins. However Dunhill Hotel looks more problematic. A few local newspaper stories, a jolly local TV story about a ghost, and that promotional HHA site. Is it notable? It's probably borderline. Black Kite (talk) 13:29, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

If it doesn't need a block or a ban, then this is not the correct place for it. This is not the "someone is doing something I don't like" page. This is the "someone needs a block or a ban" page. There is also no mechanism for asking someone to fix anything. This is a volunteer website, and Doncram is volunteering work that is within his interest and skill set. Doing so is not disruptive. --Jayron32 13:51, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

It's rather disingenuous to state that this is only "the 'someone needs a block or a ban' page". The honking big notice at the top of this page says that its remit includes "chronic, intractable behavioral problems", which is what Fram's reporting. Whether it requires a block, a ban, or some other action is a matter to be decided by a consenus of responders. Deor (talk) 14:41, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

"Actually, no sourcing at all is required in Wikipedia articles, as you know." I for one didn't know that... Narky Blert (talk) 14:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

"The chronic intractable behavior problem" of improving Wikipedia. Oh no, whatever shall we do! --Jayron32 16:55, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

The intractable problem of continuing to believe that"pulling stuff of my ass is sufficient for an article" improves Wikipedia is what you should have meant. --Calton | Talk 23:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Black Kite: Dunhill Hotel has been expanded. I do not see it as problematic. Cbl62 (talk) 20:28, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed. Yngvadottir is clearly better at these things than me :) Black Kite (talk) 20:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

These articles have also been troubling me. In one of them, I had to remove a block quotation that, as well as being unacceptably promotional, was certainly long enough to constitute a copyright violation. The Historic Hotels of America Web site seems to me to be clearly promotional (a marketing tool, with the text about each hotel written by the hotel's owner or staff), and I don't think any article sourced only to it (or only to it and to other promotional material) should remain. If any of these hotels are listed on the National Register of Historic Places, neutral articles could probably be written, referencing the listing and other reliable sources; but it's clear that most, if not all, of the stubs that Doncram's been creating are unacceptable. Deor (talk) 13:42, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

If the articles are being created without basis in reliable sources due to a mistaken understanding that no sourcing at all is required in Wikipedia articles, then all of these articles have massive WP:V issues. — MarkH₂₁^talk 15:39, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles should have sources. No one person is required to provide them, however. You can't punish someone for simply not doing something. --Jayron32 16:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Repeated additions of unreferenced/poorly referenced content, despite requests to stop, constitutes disruptive editing though. — MarkH₂₁^talk 17:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Really? Let's have a look at WP:V, the relevant policy - The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source. An advertorial for a hotel is not a reliable source. We get people creating articles sourced like this - especially about businesses - all the time. They usually get deleted. Black Kite (talk) 18:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

::I agree that the site uses promotional language to describe the properties. It does have criteria though (a hotel must be at least 50 years old; has been designated by the U.S. Secretary of the Interior as a National Historic Landmark or listed in or eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places; and recognized as having historic significance.) and the website is "the official program of the National Trust for Historic Preservation". So not a pay-to-play site, at least. Schazjmd (talk) 14:46, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Let's be clear on one thing here: HHA is a trade and marketing association, nothing more. Whereas some owner-members may have an honest interest in historic preservation, the association's purpose is marketing. We should not be sourcing anything to them, nor should we link them in EL sections. That being said, Jayron hit the nail on the head. There's nothing wrong with making stubs. I've noticed that some long-term content creators like Doncram don't seem to grasp the depth of the promotional editing issues here. My suggestion would be close this with an admonishment to be aware of potential promotional content in sources. And Doncram, I for one will be happy to assist you if needed in that area. John from Idegon (talk) 18:45, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, there's nothing wrong with making stubs (I've done so myself on occasion). The problem here is that many of the stubby articles in question contain no sources other than HHA (and perhaps the hotels' own websites). It's not just that Doncram needs "to be aware of potential promotional content in sources"; it's that he has no business creating a massive series of stubs based only on a list of the members of "a trade and marketing association". In many cases, the only claim of notability is that they're members of that organization (example, example, example). Some soi-disant article creators are so eager to bomb Wikipedia with articles that they have little regard for WP:V, WP:N, or other policies. Who's going to clean up this mess? Is Doncram going to do it (perhaps by tagging many of the articles for G7 speedy deletion), or are other editors supposed to start cluttering up AFD with them? Deor (talk) 21:52, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• The issue is not notability, but rather sourcing. For example, one of the articles Fram found objectionable was Omni Berkshire Place, New York City. With about 10 minutes effort, I found additional sourcing which has now been added to the article. While it is always best to have more/better sourcing, Doncram's starting stubs verified by by the HHA history profile for each property does not seem terribly problematic to me. And if it is a problem, it's one rather easily solved by simply searching for another source or two. Cbl62 (talk) 22:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• The issue might actually be notability as well for some of them. The single sentence "X is a hotel in Y which is a member of the HHA" doesn't provide that. I've looked at sources for a couple and can find little apart from the hotel chain's own websites, advertorials, booking sites, review sites, travel guides and the odd local news story about events at that hotel. Also, for example, Haywood Park Hotel is a former department store which we already have an article for - The Bon Marché Building of Asheville, North Carolina. It should just be merged into that. Boston Transit Commission Building and XV Beacon are the same building as well. Black Kite (talk) 22:45, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

It is true that we generally have one article on a historic building. Subsequent uses/redevelopment can typically be addressed in the main article. I noted the same issue at Talk:Haywood Park Hotel. Cbl62 (talk) 23:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, y'all, in my work I had identified a number of cases where a site was covered under a different name, and had merged most of them. For a very few, I added value already by identifying the overlap, but had not merged them. Right, and in very many but perhaps not all, i had searched hard and found photos, and i figured out locations and inserted coordinates, and so on. Wikipedia is not finished, right, but it is definitely further along for the contributions in this area that I have already made. --Doncram (talk) 02:08, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• Just to note that Doncram was the subject of an arbitration case in regard to similar behavior on NRHP articles, so this is not a new issue. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:11, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• I also note that Doncram filed a report on WP:AN in which he asks for this report to be quashed without consideration of the issues involved. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:34, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• I recall the past discussions of Doncram's article creations, and IIRC Arbcom lifted sanctions on him not long ago. Doncram's heart is in the right place, but he really needs to put more effort into each article. I agree that there is an issue of notability with these recent articles, since the Historic Hotels of America site itself is insufficient to establish notability (while the NRHP is). But the underlying problem is the rapid-fire creation without providing more than a bare claim to notability based on the one source. I just did some work on Hotel Bethlehem, where the HHA site provided useful info—murals by a named artist—that Doncram had not put in. Then I worked on Dunhill Hotel, where I agree with Black Kite, notability is hard to demonstrate, but it was easy to say more about its original identity as an apartment hotel. And I'm shaken that an editor who worked so long and hard on NRHP properties, even to the extent of insisting that Wikipedia use the same titles as the NRHP listings, would double-create articles on historic buildings based on a list of hotels. I've merged Haywood Park Hotel and I hope someone else does XV Beacon, thanks to bl62 as well as Black Kite. Stub creation per se isn't wrong in my view, but creating articles based on a list that doesn't even confer notability without checking and either adding a supporting source or putting the hotel info into a pre-existing article is just asking for deletion, which is a sad waste. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:34, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• I've redirected XV Beacon to Boston Transit Commission Building, and merged the extra material from the former into the latter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, this is Doncram, and I experience this ANI proceeding as very unfair and mean-spirited and wrong.

• ANI is about asking for an editor to be blocked or banned for "urgent incidents" or "chronic, intractable behavioral problems", neither of which is present here. To the contrary, I have been properly collaborating with others (about 10 editors have contributed to Historic Hotels of America (HHA) or Talk:Historic Hotels of America, where several issues have been brought up civilly and resolved (a page move) or otherwise addressed (work done towards identifying/describing the nature of the National Trust for Historic Preservation (a very reputable organization)'s role vis-a-vis the listed hotels). The list-article has been developed in about 200 edits, mostly by me but also by User:Imzadi1979 and User:Bubba73 and User:Andrew Jameson, and it follows on work done by User:Thierry Caro years ago which was consolidated by User:DannyS712 into the list-article's earlier version, developed up to this version in April 2019, which was agreed to be merged into the current list.
• User:Fram arrived at my Talk page this morning, with sort of a huge case of IDONTLIKEIT. I replied to their challenges, and, before I indicated I could not do more at that time, I pointed them towards where issues had already been discussed and invited them to participate. I expected they would open a wp:RSN discussion about the quality of the HHA pages, and I (helpfully, I think) advised them that would not be necessary or productive. I have before and today acknowledged the promotional air of HHA webpages about the individual hotels, but have done nothing wrong. As Fram acknowledges above, what I have written in mainspace is "neutrally written", not promotional. No error of fact in any article has been indicated. No editing issue has been raised by Fram at my Talk page or here in ANI that is not more appropriately discussed at the Talk page of the list-article. Fram stated "I'll take a look at the HHA discussion" but apparently did not. Neither Fram nor anyone here has posted anything there.
• Instead, Fram opened this ANI and has proceeded to CAST ASPERSIONS which are unjustified and not supported by diffs, and succeeded to incite others to be concerned unnecessarily, about good work that I have done as a cooperative, productive, content-producing editor. Fram stated this is "the umpteenth problem with Doncram and problematic article creations", I think alluding to a past arbitration but without diffs, and unfairly. As I recall it, the arbitration proceeding years ago actually found no fault with my article creations back then, but rather found fault with my interactions with editors who I perceived had harrassed me, and advised that the NRHP wikiproject or a larger community could/should have an RFC or whatever to come to some judgment about creation of short stub articles, which never happened. Since then, I have expanded literally thousands of short stub NRHP articles by me and others, because, well, I am on board about developing with sources. Fram literally states that they "don't see the point in trying to continue a one-on-one discussion about this" with me, when the obvious point would be to communicate and clear up several misunderstandings that have been constructed. That have been inflamed by selective quoting above...leading some, apparently, to believe that I have been spouting promotional stuff in mainspace (not so) and creating articles that are not justified (not so). They quote promotional text which I did _not_ use or rely upon in any way. Hey, look at the Talk page, where there is some fairly intelligent discussion about the issue of promotion in sources and what might be done, including about developing context about this hotel association vs. others.
• And Fram is literally inciting others: "Can some of you please make it clear to Doncram that" whatever, instead of discussing the issues. They quote me out of context about several matters, including about where I point out the fact that I and other editors do not begrudge including an external link to a b&b website, where no one actually would judge it inappropriate, which I was mentioning in passing, relating to what motivates editors about writing about historic preservation. It is a fact that wp:RS and wp:OR go on about information must be verifiable but does not necessarily have to be already verified by inline citations, where the assertions are factual, ordinary, unchallenged, as can hypothetically happen (but did not happen anywhere here; everything I wrote is in fact supported directly by inline citations!). I have indeed used inline citations from the promotionally worded sources, as is completely justified for factual statements such as addresses and number of rooms and so on. Hotel Bethlehem in particular is called into question, in which I had in fact established that the building was within a NRHP historic district, but where I could not access the extensive NRHP document online. User:Yngvadottir developed it with a different source, apparently easily they assert, which is fine, and User:Cbl62 removed a negative tag. There is absolutely nothing wrong here. Oh, right, there were a few bits of editorial questions or notes left in the list-article, which bore a big "Under construction" template upon it. What, do you think an ANI is necessary to convince me that these bits, which I have been clearly addressing, should not be left permanently in mainspace? I would surely have agreed to Fram removing those bits to the Talk page, say, or would have done it myself if they would have asked.

I was surprised to see this all, and it all seems like a clear violation of Wikipedia collaborative process guidelines and guidelines for ANI. Fram and some others here have more power here at ANI, i.e. they have more following and are more likely than me to get others to agree to what they might want, I suppose. But the only remotely justifiable outcome that I see here would be for a boomerang, an admonishment, i guess that is what would be appropriate, upon Fram for inciting this dramatically and unnecessarily. Thank you, User:Jayron32 for providing a voice of reason through the above, and thank you to some others too. --Doncram (talk) 01:52, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Pointing out the sourcing of the articles you created is wholly inadequate is not a “huge case of IDONTLIKEIT” but a very legitimate concern. Bringing that to ANI in apparent exasperation is a legitimate action. The wall of text above in response to those concerns comes across as WP:IDHT. I do not think you should be requesting boomerangs. Kleuske (talk) 05:57, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

A few things: I read, but didn't reply at the HHA talk page, because the articles I'm discussing here were created and edited by you alone and are separate from the issues with the general HHA article. I came to ANI because this was a rather urgent situation; an editor creating many (more than 20 in the last week alone) articles based solely on a promo site, and who didn't see a problem with this and showed no indication that they would change their approach.

"As I recall it, the arbitration proceeding years ago actually found no fault with my article creations back then": well, the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram#Findings of fact accepted 11 / 2 the following: "Problems with articles: " Doncram (talk · contribs) has a history of repeatedly creating articles with placeholder text and stubs with insufficient context for an outside observer to easily understand why the topic is considered significant. ", so your memory is faulty here. Fram (talk) 07:54, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• There will be no boomerang or anything else, because we do not sanction editors for bringing up legitimate concerns. The reason that a number of people have agreed with Fram above is not because they are some sort of a cabal, but because they understand the proper sourcing of articles. Let's be clear about this - you were previously banned from creating articles for three years because, according to Arbcom, you had "a history of repeatedly creating articles with placeholder text and stubs with insufficient context for an outside observer to easily understand why the topic is considered significant" And with some of these articles, you're now doing this again, except this time it's worse because they're often not NRHP locations, which means there is no presumption of notability at all. These are how some of these looked when you created them [13] [14] [15], and some of them are still stubs with no obvious notability. I mean, that's pretty much "placeholder text and stubs with insufficient context for an outside observer to easily understand why the topic is considered significant", isn't it? Obviously I'm not saying that all of them are like this, but far too many are. My suggestion is simple - that you not create any more hotel stubs based purely on sourcing from the HHA and that such stubs clearly explain why they're notable buildings. Then we won't be back here again. Black Kite (talk) 08:40, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
  • @Black Kite: The problems also seems to be that this user is autopatrolled and that their articles are therefore not subject to review by NPP, which is why many of these articles are not either tagged or nominated for deletion. --MrClog (talk) 08:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a salient point. I don't want to run around with a pitchfork here, but I do not believe that someone with a demonstrated penchant for producing undersourced -to-functionally-unsourced stubs should be autopatrolled. At least Cork Factory Hotel and Skytop Lodge would (well, should) not have made it through NPP without someone bringing up the sourcing problem. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:09, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

@Elmidae: Both Cork Factory Hotel and Skytop Lodge have now been improved with third-party sourcing. Both are notable properties. These examples seem to me to show the merits of the Wikipedia process -- a notable topic begins as a stub and is improved by collaboration among multiple editors. Seems to me that much is being made of a normal, productive, and healthy process initiated by Doncram. Cbl62 (talk) 18:34, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cbl62: Regardless of whether an article happens to be improved later on, editors that create articles that are not properly sourced in order to establish notability should not have their pages autopatrolled. --MrClog (talk) 18:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

@MrClog: If Doncram was creating a mass of stubs on non-notable topics, I might agree with you. That is not the case. The articles he has created concern notable historic properties. There is nothing inappropriate about creating these articles in a form that begins as a stub with a primary source. Each editor contributes according to his time and talents, and others add on, as we are seeing here. That is the genius of the Wikipedia system. Far from being disruptive, I believe Doncram's efforts have made Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. Cbl62 (talk) 18:45, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cbl62: Such articles at least need to be tagged, which is why we have the NPP process. --MrClog (talk) 18:51, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• Hey, I really really need to do real life stuff, not continue here for a while. But, I sense the possibility of maybe a fun and constructive way to deal with disagreement here. Basically, Fram thinks I have damaged Wikipedia by bad behaviors on my part (my editing about HHA stuff, I guess) and that I deserve to be punished (including by subjecting me to an ANI roasting which could lead to me being blocked, banned, or restricted in some way) while I think Fram has damaged Wikipedia more, by their bad behaviors that tend to hurt people and destroy community fabric (including by opening this ANI instead of discussing or pursuing dispute resolution etc, as is required by reasonable interpretation of stated ANI requirements, and by their making substantially false or misleading or unnecessarily hurtful statements when there exist clearly better, more constructive ways of engaging). And I think they should be punished, say by admonishment here requiring them to apologize meaningfully for their crimes. This is basis for a competition or game or something!

Fram basically is stating that 20 articles created by me in the last week are bad behaviors on my part; I think they are all fine; there is some uncertainty whether the topics are really valid or not. Validity could be resolved by going further into each case. There could be a sort of game requiring a judge or panel of judge to make judgments about the set of articles and statements by me and by Fram. Like how there are evaluations of truthfulness of statements made by politicians, done by judges awarding "pinocchios" or whatever. Yikes, i really have to go, but Fram, could you possibly entertain engaging in some such joust, with winner getting something and loser having to do something they wouldn't usually be willing to do? I really have to go now though. --Doncram (talk) 13:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• I see - this is a big joke to you. Noted. Black Kite (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Doncram: I get it, I really do. I also want us to have an article on every notable building (and not just in North America either). I see the HHA started off under NRHP auspices. But those blurbs don't establish notability all on their own, like NRHP listing does. Not only do the criteria include eligibility for future listing—fudge factor right there—and being a contributing property—does not confer automatic notability, and the building could have been substantially altered in the decades since its inclusion in the application—but Fram's right, the blurbs are promotional. Functionally, it's an advertising vehicle for the hotels, they write their own blurbs, and you yourself have demonstrated that some don't meet the criteria as originally set out. So these places need a search for at least one other source to show notability. And you haven't even been using the blurbs to say what you can about the building, and to find another source. In contrast NRHP applications, when one can access them, are marvelous, but the NRHP just isn't getting them digitized fast enough. So yes, it takes a bit of time to look for sources on the building's previous name, or using the name of an artist mentioned in the blurb. It also takes a bit of time to check for connected articles here, but you really owe it to the historic building (and the other editors who have started NRHP building articles; you aren't the only one!) to make sure we don't already have an article on the building. Just making a new article about the fact it's an HHA hotel is promotion of the HHA, especially in the instances where we already have an article that sets the hotel in the proper context: as just the latest use. I'm sorry I used the term "rapid-fire" if we are really talking about 20 articles a week, but expecting other editors, such as me, to establish notability for your articles, to chase down necessary context like Boyes Hot Springs, California (for an article you mentioned you'd created anew; and you're not the only one not following up obvious leads readers should be able to expect us to have followed up on—Boyes Springs was pretty much destroyed in September 1923 by a big wildfire, and we weren't mentioning that in the article), even to add information about teh building itself that was in your source&nsbsp;... well, I'm hurt. I have other things I need to do off-wiki. At least when I had to drop everything to render a Google-translated article into comprehensible English, or even translate it out of a foreign language, in order to save a notable topic, I could say the article creator was new, or didn't know any better. You have already been subjected to a requirement to create your articles through AfC. I was thrilled when you succeeded in getting that lifted. With apologies to Elmidae, no, the solution here is not for Doncram's articles to be added to the NPP burden. It's for Doncram to always search for an existing article, and to always make sure the assertion of notability is supported, which for anything except the NRHP or its equivalent in other countries means at least two sources. And those are the minimum Wikipedia requirements for new articles on historic buildings. The stub thing is actually a further point: if there's more information easily to hand (like in the 10-line source you started out with), put it in, both to inform the reader and as a grab handle for those who do expand articles. But the other two are minimal. Otherwise it gets deleted, and that is to cry over. So now I will have my coffee, damnit. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• A question: I just read through Doncram's arb case and a bunch of prior AN(/I)threads. It seems to me like history is repeating itself, at least with respect to article problems. Have there been recent-ish instances of the behavioral issues (NPA, move/edit warring, etc.)? Taking a broader view would probably help in determining if action is warranted. Mdaniels5757 (talk) 03:20, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Considering his history, and this current repetition of the same behavior underlying the Arb case, perhaps someone should formally propose that Doncram's autopatrolled rights be removed? They were previously removed on June 20, 2011 by User:NuclearWarfare and were restored on May 17, 2017 by User:Swarm. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• I don’t have time to fully assess this case, but I will just note that my expectation in granting autopatrolled is for the user to remain 100% policy compliant in their creations and have absolutely zero benefit from the review process. Mistakes and shortcomings are acceptable but the user needs to be 100% accountable for them and rectify them immediately and without incident. If any administrator feels the user has fallen short of this standard, do feel free to revoke Autopatrolled with my full support. It’s not about punishment or sanctioning the editor, nor does it imply that the editor is untrustworthy, disruptive, or not a net positive. It simply means the NPP process will serve a purpose and will not just be a waste of time. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 05:33, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• I've revoked it given the consent above and the concerns raised here. Just noting for clarity that the restoration of rights in 2017 was entirely proper. DrKay (talk) 09:24, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Just to note that I did not intend to imply that Swarm's re-granting of the right in 2017 was in any way improper or unjustified, given the circumstances at that moment. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:57, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Doncram just taking the piss now?

OR does he really not understand the issues? Today, he created Mayflower Park Hotel with four sources and one external link. The sources are:

• The Historic Hotels of America website, the promotional page this section is about
• A subpage of that same promo site
• A PDF from the hotel, a pure primary source
• "EXPERIENCED EVENT PLANNERS OFFER TIMELESS ADVICE" from "Northwest meestings + events"

The EL is the official site of the hotel, which is fine of course.

So, instead of using one promotional source, we now have 4 of these, and still not a single neutral, reliable, independent source about the actual hotel. Why not use, oh I don't know, the complete book on "Seattle'Historic Hotels"[16] instead? Really, how hard is it to use good sources instead of this shit? Fram (talk) 07:28, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

He has been here long enough to know how we operate. The fact he continues to edit in this manner shows a blatant disregard for that. GiantSnowman 07:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I do think that this is a problem in an autopatrolled editor. Put it this way - if someone applied for autopatrolled, and their history showed they were creating articles like that, there's no chance they'd be given it. I create a lot of articles about historic buildings - I create them in userspace drafts, and I don't publish them until they have enough sourcing to demonstrate a clear GNG pass. I've got no problem with the creation of stubs, but publishing them while they are sourced only to promotional or affiliated sources just isn't what we should be doing, even if we hope that someone else is going to finish them. I'd be happiest if Doncram said something along the lines of "OK, I'm hearing you, I'll stop putting articles into main space until I've put multiple independent, secondary and reliable sources into them." If Doncram isn't willing to do that, then as a minimum the autopatrolled perm needs to be pulled, because these stubs clearly need to be reviewed and improved (or deleted, if sourcing can't be found). GirthSummit _(blether) 09:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• DrKay has already removed Doncram's autopatrolled rights. [17] Mysticdan (talk) 09:55, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• I've added a couple of sources to Mayflower Park Hotel - there are more out there, it's definitely a notable building. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Proposal

1. Doncram is subject to an indefinite ban from creating new articles in mainspace. Articles created in Draft space must be reviewed by an independent editor prior to moving to mainspace.
2. Doncram is warned that creation of large numbers of candidate articles based solely on directory-style resources may lead to an extension to this restriction, banning all article creation.

---

• Support as proposer. This is clearly a long-standing failure to accept WP:NOTDIR. Guy (help!) 09:46, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support. The creating of the Mayflower Park Hotel noted above is a slap in the face of people who have brought concerns to Doncram. These concerns seem to have been utterly ignored, and Doncram can appeal these sanctions whey they understand what the problems are. Mr Ernie (talk) 10:11, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support Taking APP away is enough, let them have enough WP:ROPE to seal this deal themselves. I do not support a ban on article creation outright, but AFC might be the way to go if the problem is severe enough. Doncram writes nice articles for the most part. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 13:17, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
  • That essay clearly lists the user ... is not giving any indication that they even feel they did anything wrong as a situation in which it should not be used. Doncram clearly feels that they are above the rules (see also their recent feud with BHG), and we simply cannot assume that this will change when they themselves have neither announced nor implied any such intentions. M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 17:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Hiab here, I had a name change the response below does not inspire confidence. I'm hoping they climb off the drama cliff before they do permenant damage to themselves. Unbroken Chain (talk) 20:38, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment We shouldn't be in this situation. Doncram, I'm not going to insult you by giving links to guidelines that you've already read - I'm certain you already understand notability and the importance of independent sources, just as I'm certain that you are capable of writing excellent, properly sourced articles. Please would you undertake to stop creating articles that are referenced only to sources that are affiliated with the subject? You're more than capable of doing that, it's not like you need hand holding over this. It's not like there is a deadline by which all of these hotels need to have an article - just take your time and add independent sources that demonstrate a clear GNG pass before publishing them in main space. If you give such an assurance, this proposal would not be necessary; I don't want to find myself supporting it, but I fear that might happen if you intend to carry on creating articles like this. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support - unfortunate but necessary. GiantSnowman 18:13, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support Their stubborn refusal to admit they have done anything wrong, even now, means this unfortunately has to be forced upon them.-- P-K3 (talk) 18:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support as necessary given Doncram's history. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:56, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. This thread has already resulted in removal of Doncram's autopatrolled status. That is a sufficient remedy IMO. The further sanction proposed here might be appropriate if Doncram were creating masses of stubs on non-notable topics. But that's not the case. The new articles Doncram has created in the last two weeks relate to notable historic properties. His initiative in creating these articles has led to a collaborative effort among several editors. See, e.g., Omni Berkshire Place (now nominated to be featured on the Main Page), Dunhill Hotel, La Posada de Santa Fe, Cork Factory Hotel, Hilton Santa Fe Historic Plaza, Morris Inn at Notre Dame, Skytop Lodge. Cbl62 (talk) 23:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• The "collaborative effort" was not Doncram's doing, more credit for that should be given to Fram for bringing the situation to light. Without that, the articles you cite would most probably have stayed as they were when Doncram created them. In any case, the efforts of other editors to improve the articles does not reflect on Doncram, and should not be used as a reason to negate possible sanctions against him. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:52, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

See also Mayflower Park Hotel also now substantially improved (by User:Girth Summit). And I do not agree with the idea that Doncram deserves no credit for the collaboration. He has come up with the kernel of an idea to start articles on historic hotels. It was a good idea, as evidenced by the fact that multiple users have now jumped in to develop the articles further. Doncram's style and walls of words may rub many the wrong way, but when you look at the substance of his effort, it's clearly a net positive to the encyclopedia. Cbl62 (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Cbl62, yes, I spent a bit of time to find sources that I think demonstrate a GNG pass (and those sources themselves have sources - I'm confident now that this would survive a trip to AfD). However, I actually agree with BMK - these articles have lots of eyes on them just now due in large part to this ANI thread. I don't think that we should host articles sourced purely to promotional material published by the subject and/or a marketing organisation - I know that Doncram is more than capable of finding and adding better sources, but I can't get my head around why they seem to think it's not important to do so. GirthSummit _(blether) 15:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: Of course, I would prefer, too, that the articles be better developed (and that is happening), but do you really think that Doncram's initiative in starting articles on these historic properties is a net negative to Wikipedia? I do not. BTW, I am now digging now into the Fairmont Sonoma Mission Inn & Spa and finding a trove of information on this property. How is it that nobody bothered to create an article on this property for the past 15 years? I am grateful that Doncram finally did so that it can now be developed. Cbl62 (talk) 15:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Cbl62, a net negative? I'm not sure I'd go that far, but an article written entirely around promotional, affiliated sources isn't unambiguously better than nothing in my mind. You're right, it can be a jumping off point if someone else notices that it's there, but I don't think that hosting them in that state does our reputation for reliability much good, and they encourage the many spam merchants who come here every day making OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments about why their hotel/company/cousin's band should be allowed to have an article based entirely on promo. I think that experienced, capable editors who understand our guidelines about notability and sourcing have a responsibility to set an example, and to make sure that they don't put stuff like that in mainspace. Sure, knock up a draft and post at a relevant project page encouraging others to contribute, but don't publish the thing until it has at least some decentish independent sourcing. GirthSummit _(blether) 15:40, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, I agree that Doncram should be encouraged to add an independent source to his new articles. That has been done, and we will see if he takes that to heart. I also don't disagree with removal of his autopatrolled status -- an extra set of eyes is a good thing. I just don't think a ban on new article creation is warranted or helpful to the encyclopedia. Everyone's talents are different. Doncram has proven to be very good at coming up with overall structures and ideas in the realm of historic sites. Once he comes up with a concept, as he has with historic hotels, he is quite tenacious in developing it, and we should not be quashing that initiative. Cbl62 (talk) 16:04, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose losing autopatrolled status is enough, and bringing in not directory is misleading - the problem is one promotional source, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 01:21, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• That is much too reductive, as the problem is a number of things: creating articles based on nothing but promotional material, failing to look for other sources, creating new articles when there are already existing articles to which the information could be added, and on. Take another look at Fram's opening comment for a better idea of what's involved. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support. This would allow Doncram to continue to create articles, but avoid the issue of potentially inappropriate articles being deleted en masse, since they'd be in draftspace and anyone who felt they were salvagable could add sources at leisure. Looking at the numbers of articles involved, the alternative would be a Neelix-style cull, which would benefit neither Wikipedia (since it would waste a huge amount of time), nor Doncram (who would have the unpleasant experience of creating articles and seeing them promptly deleted). ‑ Iridescent 17:54, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
• Request. I know the consensus supports this additional sanction, but I am worried that this is having a very negative impact on Doncram. His edits today have been worrisome, most recently with his blanking his talk page with the edit note "it's happening. game over?". Also a note to Jimbo Wales that "This is depressing, crushing, awful for me." Can we please just close this without a stern warning but no further sanctions? If problems persist, this can be revisited. Cbl62 (talk) 18:17, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Doncram's diva behavior is no justification for not considering necessary sanctions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: "Diva behavior" strikes me as unnecessarily harsh. Doncram has devoted years of work to this project, and he feels like he's under attack. Cbl62 (talk) 19:56, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Agreed. I understand that people are under more stress than usual in the current circumstances, and for most editors I'd be prepared to make allowances, but Doncram has been pulling variations of this "rules are for other people" routine for literally years ([18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], and of course everything at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram). It's not unreasonable to expect someone with 180,000 edits over a 15-year period to be familiar with some of our most basic principles like Wikipedia:Reliable sources. It's certainly not unreasonable to expect Doncram to be aware of and to follow the arbcom-mandated principle that Community expectations for the creation of stub articles … require a stub article to contain, as a minimum, sufficient information to provide verifiable context and establish the subject matter's notability, given that that particular finding was from an arb case about Doncram. ‑ Iridescent 19:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC) Note that the comment above mine was top-posted subsequent to mine; my agreement is with BMK, not with Cbl62. ‑ Iridescent 20:43, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - Everyone has DIVA fits and we support sanctions or oppose regardless.... but having read his posts on Jimbos page I cannot support such heavy restrictions, Maybe there's issues we're unaware of or maybe it's all BS but given the current pandemic and whatnot I simply cannot support heavy restrictions, That being said he's been here long enough to know what is and what aren't reliable sources. –Davey2010^Talk 20:20, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• WP:Wikipedia is not therapy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:26, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Never said it was, I simply have a heart and I don't agree with coming down like a ton of bricks on someone who may be having a hard time in RL right now, You support this proposal and that's great however I don't and no amount of Policy throwing is going to change that. –Davey2010^Talk 20:43, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• I certainly agree with the general sentiment that we need to be protective of each other, and make allowances in the current circumstances, but as Iridescent points out, the overall behavior pattern exhibited by Doncram -- including the diva behaviors -- is not specific to these times, it's been going on for many years. A read of the arbitration case is instructive. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Davey2010, Doncram has form for "everyone else is plotting against me and you're my only hope" posts on Jimbotalk when it looks like a community discussion is going to go against him—see User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 110#Help! and User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 118#Wikipedia and bullying. Not expecting to change your mind—it's a legitimate view that this time he's sincere—but you should probably be aware if you're not already. ‑ Iridescent 20:52, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Hi Iridescent, Thanks for making me aware of this, Unfortunately I didn't realise he did this when things didn't go his way, As stupid as this may sound I genuinely thought there were RL issues such as maybe virus related or more and when something like that happens obviously the last thing anyone wants or needs is this thread .... Anyway thanks for making me aware of this, I've since struck my original oppose and will be supporting. Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 21:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Bear in mind, too, that almost all of the links provided above as evidence of Doncram's problematic behavior date from the 2011-2012 time period. From 2013 to 2020, Doncram largely (not entirely) avoided problems, edited productively, and was not sanctioned. Given the long period of sanction-free behavior, it's not entirely fair to portray him as someone who has been a persistent source of disruption. The historic hotel issue is relatively new and, while sourcing is an issue, relates to an area where notability does not appear to be in doubt. Cbl62 (talk) 21:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't take into account that from March 2013 to November 2016 Doncram was, as a result of the ArbCom case, under sanctions and could not create new articles, so your staement that "From 2013 to 2020, Doncram largely (not entirely) avoided problems..." is really not accurate. You might want to amend it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:23, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't take into account that from 2016 until last month's historic hotels campaign, Doncram has not been under such sanctions and his article creation in that time period does not appear to have been problematic. ... Stepping back for a moment to make some broader observation: Doncram has clearly rubbed some people here the wrong way. Heck, he can be inflexible and verbose, and he's rubbed me the wrong way at times. That said, when I look at the big picture, I see an editor who is generally civil and helpful, even mentoring with new users. I see someone who's clearly dedicated to improving/expanding Wikipedia's coverage of historic sites. I also see someone who's sensitive and is hurting as a result of the piling on here. I also see a piling on that appears excessive in relation to the most recent incident and worrisome in light of Doncram's recent edits, noted above. Cbl62 (talk) 21:55, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I could not disagree more. Doncram could have easily nipped this problem in the bud when Fram first brought it to his attention by saying something on the order of "You're right, those articles are not as robust as they should be, I'll go over them and add some sources, and combine them with existing articles where that is appropriate." The whole thing would be over, and it would never have been brought to AN/I. In short, Doncram has brought this upon himself by stonewalling, and now by drowning us in bushel-baskets of words. Instead of acknowledging the problem and working to fix it, he's blaming "bullying" editors and running in tears to Jimbo to say how oppressed he is. That doesn't deserve our sympathy and a free pass, that's completely non-collaborative behavior, and his deficient articles actively harms the encyclopedia, the most basic Wiki-crime of all. He is, essentially, out of control, and our response to it cannot be a hand wave and a pat on the back. His behavior is sanctionable, and Guy's suggestions are both justified and reasonable, about the minimum that could be expected under the circumstances.

I would ask you to consider dropping this line of discussion. I don't think it's helping Doncram in the least, and the matter is simply not going to dropped by the looks of the !voting at this point. What point is there in continuing along these lines? Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:23, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

"What point is there in continuing along these lines?" I've spoken up because I believe (a) Doncram, while imperfect, is a significant net positive to Wikipedia, (b) the removal of autopatrolling and "Proposal 2" below are adequate remedies, (c) Proposal 1 is excessive, (d) Doncram is clearly hurting based on his posts earlier today and (e) I perceive there is some unnecessary piling on here. Simple as that. Cbl62 (talk) 22:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

There are also more recent disruptive editing issues/sanctions: a lengthy March 2020 ANI thread, a January 2020 block, and a November 2018 block. — MarkH₂₁^talk 21:35, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Neither of those two brief blocks seems to have anything to do with content creation. Cbl62 (talk) 21:55, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

They're related to the claim that

From 2013 to 2020, Doncram largely (not entirely) avoided problems, edited productively, and was not sanctioned. Given the long period of sanction-free behavior, it's not entirely fair to portray him as someone who has been a persistent source of disruption.

— MarkH₂₁^talk 23:09, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support as per everyone above - Enough really is enough. –Davey2010^Talk 21:21, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
• General note. If there's anyone who thinks my "rules are for other people" comment was hyperbole, Doncram is now openly canvassing for people to votestack this particular thread. (Given that the canvassing has a header of "Please help me at ANI", there's no possible AGF interpretation.) ‑ Iridescent 22:23, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Since it was clearly a violation of WP:Canvassing -- perhaps the most blatant violation I've seen in 15 years of editing here -- I have reverted Doncram's non-neutral plea for help from the WikiProject NRHP talk page, and notified him on his talk page that I have done so. He can, of course, post a neutral pointer to that page, without pleading his case or suggesting what kind of response he wants from the members there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:35, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• Doncram has now posted a neutral non-canvassing pointer to this thread. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:32, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• This may give an idea about what Doncram's real focus is. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:34, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Articles should be based on reliable sources at their foundation, not merely written based on promotional materials and then patched over with better sources later when other editors try to fix the problem. The discussion above makes clear that this has not been happening in this case and will continue not happening unless we impose sanctions. So this is not about punishing Doncram for misbehavior, but about protecting the encyclopedia from foundationally-unsound content. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:42, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Proposal 2

1. That the articles created by Doncram and based solely on HHA and the hotels' own websites, be moved to draft.

---

• Support as proposer. Guy (help!) 09:48, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support This one I already support - an article sourced only to the subject's website and/or a marketing organisation is a draft, and shouldn't be in main space until someone has replaced the promo sources with proper ones. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Agree with Girth Summit above. Deor (talk) 17:47, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support - yes, it's embarrassing having these still in main space. GiantSnowman 18:13, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support Also necessary.-- P-K3 (talk) 18:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support These articles, while possibly notable and expandable, are not fit for mainspace in their current states. — MarkH₂₁^talk 20:46, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support - I was going to add that they should be checked for new sources before moving, but on second thought, I really think Doncram should be responsible for that if he wants the articles to be moved into mainspace. Cleaning up his own mess, in other words. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support per my comments in the section above. This would allow anyone who felt any given article was salvageable (whether Doncram or anyone else) to find reliable sources at their leisure, without potentially large volumes of spam cluttering the article space. ‑ Iridescent 17:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support per MarkH21. ~ HAL333 19:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support as per above. –Davey2010^Talk 20:22, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
• Qualified support. Given the efforts of multiple editors, most of Doncram's recent historic hotel articles now have at least some independent sourcing, and those should remain in main space. That said, I'm fine with the proposal for the small number of articles that still need independent sourcing. Cbl62 (talk) 20:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support. The cleanest solution to the existing problem. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:43, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

some responding

Hi, this is Doncram, briefly. Though this will be completely dismissed in part as being too long (proving Doncram didn't hear that), what I am posting now is way too short to actually respond, because, well, ANI is that way. And I don't have time for more. I am sorry to come back and see what's further gone on, though I do appreciate what several editors have done. Been thinking about what's same and different between big horrible 2012 situation and proceedings, vs. this 2020 situation, which someone asked about. Most briefly:

• I am different. Much else is same.
• Short stub articles in NRHP area are similar but different to short stub articles on HHAs. It would be reasonable to have discussion to consensus among NRHP then and HHA editors now about what practices should be. HHA discussion going on productively at its Talk page, about what practices should be, has overcome several difficult issues. But also there are only about 60 out of 300 or so HHA articles to be developed. It is hard to gain experience about what is reasonable for HHA articles in advance of just starting them all. Quite reasonable to continue discussion on local consensus, like has been going on.
• Venue choice, timing choice again absurdly given over to the wrong parties. ANI is horrible for this; the environment is poisonous. Participants seem easily incited/inflamed by most dramatic assertions, however wrong. Division to extremes rather than compromise is what happens (like U.S. politics). Unfairness and viciousness drive out reasonable discussion, make it hard for me to advance offers or assurances that could be generated, would be appreciated by some, in a less polarized forum (like the Talk page of HHA list-article).
• Then as again now, for real I am a reasonable, good, friendly, productive person, who likes finding good sources and ways to improve articles, it is what I do. I am not the inexplicably evil person projected by aspersions/falsehoods etc. here, which pretty much rule out cooperative discussion. What happened to "assume good faith"; this trial, like ANI usually, is all about casting aspersions, making accusations, inviting misunderstanding, inciting mob rule. All in general violation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines about personal attacks, casting aspersions, etc., but weirdly Wikipedia lets anything go on, at ANI.
• Then as now, where original or early incorrect assertions are cleared up, new accusations are manufactured. Not fair. There is ongoing invitation to audit me and find anything that could possibly superficially look bad, which would work for review of anyone else, too. Open season on target (me). Moving target for me to reply to. Generally incomprehension about how difficult, damaging, demoralizing to me to be put in this situation. Any statement I make can/will be seized upon and criticized, generating more accusations, etc.
• (Aside: just one of many cognitive errors going on is miss-perception of extent of negative consensus present, not accounting for contradictions of criticisms. Another sad fact is ANI gives equal weight to those with relevant experience and knowledge and vs. those uninformed and wrong in their assumptions. Not worth considering more, now, of course.)
• Short stub articles, even without any source, absolutely are allowed by Wikipedia then and now, per wp:OR and wp:RS directly.
• Nonsense, truly rubbish, to run on with allegations about that. By the way, no occurrence of any unsourced statements in any HHA article, AFAIK. Or if there is some minor problem, would easily be fixed by regular editing problem.
  • the 2012 arbitration is misunderstood, of course, by (all?) readers now. I think i remembered it correctly. Just reviewing one "finding" linked there, approximately that "Doncram has created many articles which are too short to achieve adequacy somehow" is misleading. Need to see their remand to the community to come to any consensus on short articles (never happened), for a start. Situation was inflamed by harrassment; one most constructive decision then was an interaction ban.
  • I personally would welcome a proper RFC to increase minimum standards for articles in some ways, by the way. It is not reasonable for people to get enraged about what I did in complete compliance with all rules and above and beyond what is accepted elsewhere, though.
• Then as now: If challenged, though, I do believe there is obligation to respond to general concern of reasonable others in a working forum. Espclly to opinions of fellow editors participating in development in the area already or newly (e.g. Cbl62 for one). There is in fact some room for me to make some accommodation(s), but facts of matter remain that I have done nothing wrong, this forum is unfair/unreasonable, and it is just hard to discuss any accommodation in this atmosphere.
• Wikipedia rules and practices are mostly the same, have not been improved in addressing bullying and unfairness. Some advance of editors on average, perhaps, but not enough. Pathetic lack of intelligence about design of this eco-system.
• Then and now the unfairness, vilification, hatred, has real damaging impact upon the target, me. Then as now I perceive real malevolence and/or reckless disregard for truth and fairness on part of some, real concern and misunderstanding on part of others. The nominator of this ANI and some others truly, appear to me to act as if they deeply do not care about human impact. Nor, actually, about impact upon development of the encyclopedia.

It seems important to me now both:

• to respect the community voice expressed here, to some extent, and in ways that are feasible and reasonable (more later)
• to try to communicate/educate/make assertions about what has gone wrong this time, to some extent, even though ANI is patently not the discussion forum that will achieve understanding about ANI
• to really resist, in ways that I was not able to in 2012, some things
• to appreciate and thank several good persons who have done some HHA editing and/or participated here

I see that my user rights were changed so that new articles will be reviewed(?); it was simply done, whether justified and fair or not, and there can't be any different decision. As before that is acceptable and has some good aspects, is a change that actually sort of will likely have an impact as intended. Further proposition to ban my creating articles is unjustifiable. Note, again, not one article has been found to be invalid as a topic. And note my recent single article creation did suffice to convey enough about the topic to interest other(s) in developing further, which is fine. And note that despite suggestions that I am running wild against consensus, note I did respond to this ANI by stopping creating HHA articles, with that one exception. I also note ANI initiator did not respond, is apparently not accepting my genuine offer somewhere above.

I apologize to each of you for failing to concentrate on the one matter which you personally think is most important. Everything else I say is demonstration of deceit/misdirection on my part. Probably i should not push the Publish button, but will anyhow. Okay, please compete to get in the quickest, snappiest dismissals. --Doncram (talk) 19:49, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Your thoughtful response here is genuinely appreciated, really. However, the few sarcastic comments and assumptions of bad faith mixed in here aren't. We get it, this is stressful and some aspects could be very unfair. The snippiness doesn't help anyone though, and is unnecessary. — MarkH₂₁^talk 20:49, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Why can’t you just agree to use proper sourcing when creating new articles, like everybody else has to? That would entirely solve these issues, regardless of what the current year is. Mr Ernie (talk) 21:49, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• It would be nice in the future if you could make your points succinctly and without using walls of text. Ironically, your comments are far larger than the stubs you create. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:05, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• I do not believe baiting is helpful at all, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 01:24, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Who's baiting? Doncram's comments here are all TL;DNR, and I was hoping that if he were to write with more brevity, it would be easier to determine what his salient points are. As it is, they're lost in the walls of text. You may have all the time in the world to read his comments, but many others, myself included, do not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:58, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

judgment about HHA and NTHP

The HHA is a program of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. The NTHP garners annual fees from HHA members and also fees from its hotel bookings website, which has promotional language in describing the member hotels. It is being assumed that HHA is non-credible as a source, that it has been compromised ("HHA is a trade and marketing association, nothing more. Whereas some owner-members may have an honest interest in historic preservation, the association's purpose is marketing.") I myself had questions (see Talk:Historic Hotels of America), but I came to the judgment that the HHA is credible and not compromised, for reasons:

• The NTHP is a 70 year old 501c3 charitable nonprofit organization, with many programs, dedicated to furthering historic preservation by operating 27 National Historic Sites (such as James Monroe's Monticello), by issuing "Save Historic Places" grants to directly fund historic preservation (e.g. $4.5 million in 2017 for items like $45,000 for the Lower East Side Tenament Museum in 2017, say). It consults directly with property owners to support historic preservation. The NTHP does take positions (its "11 Most Endangered Historic Places" program, its lobbying on issues such as changes to tax credit programs), as a 501c3 it cannot be overtly political/cannot endorse political candidates. It seeks "win-win solutions".
• It is governed by a 25 member board, all unpaid, which happens to include Laura Bush, and includes representation from the Attorney General of the United States, and other ex officios. I expect the board is very conservative and protective about the reputation of the NTHP (partly from my direct experience with the board of a different, comparable organization).
• The HHA program, while seemingly a good example of a win-win type program, in which independent historic hotels are supported and benefit from NTHP association, and which derives some proceeds for the NTHP (apparently dedicated further historic preservation, sometimes restricted to the same area as the hotel providing proceeds) is apparently a small part, too small to be discussed in NTHP's annual report for the public or in its IRS 990 filings. In 2016 (latest available 990) the NTSP, with $266 million net assets and annual revenue of $45 million has only about $3 million revenue from membership dues, the item which I think includes any HHA proceeds.
• The HHA states that member hotels must have historic merit, including being explicitly listed in the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP, which is a different thing, whose creation in late 1960s was supported by the NTHP) or being deemed eligible for listing.
• It seems highly unlikely to me that the board would allow the HHA program to be compromised, to allow association of hotels not meeting its stated requirements.
• It seems to me that the hotels' participation is genuine and so is the HHA's.

I also came to judgment that HHA membership is a signal of Wikipedia notability, for reasons:

• explicit NRHP listing of some
• obvious high notability of many
• NRHP-eligibility requirement
• facts stated in HHA sources
• I worked first developing out missing articles about the HHA's founding member hotels, which all seemed very notable, including by photos I could find, and by my seeing them in Google streetview, and also by NRHP and other sources.
• Continuing on others, perhaps lesser, I found when I tried that I could round up NRHP sources and other separate sources immediately, in many cases
• I found HHA sources to be consistent with NRHP and other sources (besides one apparent discrepancy, to be investigated)

Based on these judgments, and no opposition from editors participating or invited, I further judged it acceptable/good to push ahead in developing articles, even without locating non-HHA sources first. In order to collect information and establish more, including shaking out more about the nature/extent of HHA payments, wherever I did find additional sources.

I don't think my judgment was bad about choice to rely upon HHA source alone in many cases, though others now disagree and believe the articles are embarrassing. But was my judgment so bad, that I must be over-ruled and punished?

I do see, obviously, that there is now community concern about the HHA source and the HHA member notability. I did immediately stop creating HHA articles, except later creating one using HHA sources plus primary source plus local interview-type source to add a bit more, which I thought would be acceptable, not embarrassing. I have been given further feedback of concern about that one (although it is agreed that it is notable, I am at fault for not finding an available "Historic Hotels in Seattle" source). I have stopped completely, now, and it would be crazy for me to do more; it would make sense for me to allow other editors now in the area to go on to develop the remaining ones (about 60 out of 300). There is no urgent problem.

This ANI forum definitely does have the right to impose anything, now, whether I would perceive it as fair or not. Either proposal is very damaging to me, seems humiliating, equivalent to desysopping an administrator. This is very depressing, and seems to be happening, and to me it seems there's nothing I can do. I have received some messages of support, which is nice, but if this is done then I don't see any way forward for me. Is this really good for Wikipedia? --Doncram (talk) 16:24, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

NRHP stubs in 2012 vs. HHA articles in 2020

Then as now a major problem, almost all of the problem in my view, was the fact of bullying-type editors following me. Back then, others observed that in many contentions opened by one of the worst offenders back then, was that he was following me and interrupting and opening AFDs and ANIs and so in. Often opening an ANI or the like, instead of discussing, meanwhile I was continuing improving an article; his point was that it temporarily had some redlinks or whatever other deficiencies, some of which I had already fixed, because that was what I was doing, before the ANI opened. If he hadn't there would have been no problem. But this succeeded in getting random others riled up, outraged. And many times i tried to discuss stuff and he simply would not, rudely, deeply incivilly.

Back then, there were more NRHP editors and production, and it was possible to think that I had created a short stub, just before someone else would have created a bigger article perhaps, within a month or year or so. I was happy to go completely far away, e.g. to do North Dakota where there never ever has been any NRHP editor, but he and others followed there and contended. The problem for some other NRHP editors was the contention itself. They didn't want to see it, it was unpleasant, they didn't want to be involved, didn't care who was more at fault or not, didn't care to consider any argument. Sort of fairly, it was their home area; they had standing; I actually did care about what they (not intruders just following) wanted. When I was eventually banned from NRHP or from creating new NRHP articles or whatever, for a year, I chose to stay away much longer (someone above stated I was banned for three years, not true). Partly because I did want to give them a rest, partly to let the worst contending intruders drift away. Which they did, because they were there for the contention. They would only edit NRHP articles that I had started to prove they could do better, and I suppose sometimes they did some separately from me, but really they were not interested, so left when contention stopped. The arbitration process and ruling was in fact deeply unfair to me, but it did work.

Same thing now, there would be no problem if, just now User:Fram had not identified they could cause a stink, and confronted me rudely so in part i reacted badly, then they acted further rudely by openig this ANI instead of following available regular procedures. Here in HHA area in 2020, I pioneered the area, and there were only a few editors contributing, coming from NRHP because I invited them and they were willing to edit a bit on their states (Michigan, Georgia, Wisconsin). There was/is no one with any disagreement. I invited discussion about category and promotional nature of sources at the Talk page, and two sorta difficult problems were solved, civilly. Since this stink started up, Cbl62 and some others have chipped in to contribute more. No one complaining here has any reason to care. I and others were going to develop the area, and partly do it in layers (e.g. start all, come back to add proper categories later, come back exploiting any new big source that might be found, etc.). Anyhow there would be no HHA area if I did not take it up, and IMO it was embarrassing that there was nothing. Intruding to shut it down serves no content-producing editors anywhere.

I am asking NRHP editors now to come comment here. This will reach some longterm editors who never liked me, I suppose, but have the decency to say the proposals are not needed, I hope. The proposals would actually further stymie NRHP development, which has slowed, is barely above rate of new NRHP listings. During 2015 to late 2019 i expanded a few thousand stubs, created similar number new ones, generally without contention and in fact with pleasant collaboration with several editors. (BTW, I walked away from new NRHP article development after a non-NRHP editor created issue about redlink categories; I was expecting to return to NRHP after finding forum, perhaps an RFC, other consensus process about that topic.) If anyone thinks these proposals help NRHP area, I think they are wrong. --Doncram (talk) 21:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Again, a more succinct statement of your views would have been helpful. Am I wrong in summarizing your position as being that you are essentially not at fault, and that the problems reported here stem from other editors "bullying" you? Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:11, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

At 2020 South Korean legislative election

User:Willisuh seems to be WP:NOTHERE, and given the narrow focus of their previous edits (mostly dealing with South Korean politics), which rely on biased language and, sometimes, misinterpretation of sources and potential OR to, seemingly, push a point; they also appear to be a WP:SPA. As a mostly uninvolved editor with the current dispute, I ask if there is ground for action here? 107.190.33.254 (talk) 17:45, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Having started the discussion about the material in question on the article talk page, it does seem that they are only really here (currently) to push what appears to be a fringe viewpoint via a mixture of WP:SYNTH and misrepresentation. However, I'm not sure any action is required unless they start trying to readd it to the article. Number 57 17:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Edit-warring POV on EverQuote by IP pushing same POV since 2018

((moving report here from WP:AN, where I mistakenly posted it yesterday))

This person edits from a shifting IP address, but these recent edits[31][32] are likely from the same shifting-IP person [33] reported by @Ponyo: in the past.

If you semi-protect the article for a few weeks, the edit-warring on the article can be replaced by discussion on the talk page. I will notify the talk pages of those two IPs though I doubt the person in question will see my messages. HouseOfChange (talk) 04:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

The IP is back today inserting the same material with edit summary "WP:BRD is a guideline while WP:OWN is policy. Then on talk page argues that it doesn't matter what RS say because Online marketplace says something different. I don't want to revert his change a third time, but can somebody here take a look please? HouseOfChange (talk) 16:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Not an admin, but I reverted and chimed in on the talkpage; the edits are obviously in violation of what the sources clearly and explicitly state. Grandpallama (talk) 16:47, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

For any admins that want to look at this, disruptive editing by various Virginia-based IPs, likely the same person, focused on the removal of the term "marketplace" goes back to November 2018. Grandpallama (talk) 17:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to Grandpallama for taking a look at this IP, who is probably also this IP and this IP. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:38, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

((restart indent)) the comedy continues at the article as IP makes same edit for 4th time. I just copy-pasted this entire discussion here from WP:AN, where I mistakenly had put it. Apologies!! @Grandpallama: thanks for trying to help. HouseOfChange (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kuru:, Ponyo says you are the admin who dealt with this IP in 2018 incident re the same article. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

The page has been protected, but only for a week. Given the persistence of this IP, and the continued nonsense on the talkpage, I'd think another block of the range might be in order. Grandpallama (talk) 17:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

The article is protected but the trolling continues on Talk page, 9 from him since 10 p.m. last night, latest claim is "Hate to break it to you, but no one from WP:ANI is even paying attention," so we should change article to what he wants so that he will stop trolling. Please some admin...help if possible, or even just advice. HouseOfChange (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

You could probably put an end to the talk page trolling by opting not to respond further. It isn't as though the user keeps introducing substantially new insights that merit a response. Largoplazo (talk) 17:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Or I don't know, maybe you could give some consideration to improving the neutrality of the article by removing a claim that is only sourced from media outlets repeating the same promotional wording provided by the subject of the article? 2600:1003:B84D:C995:ADC2:271F:4A32:B3AB (talk) 18:44, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

If multiple bylined articles in RS use the word "marketplace" to describe a company's business model, that means multiple RS have vetted that metaphor used in company PR as an accurate shorthand to describe the company. Also, the article clearly describes (based on RS) how EverQuote connects insurance shoppers to multiple insurance vendors. (No insurance policies are displayed on wooden tables in a town square.) Also, the word "marketplace" is not a promotional term. HouseOfChange (talk) 19:30, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

You are putting way too much faith in the sources provided. None of them would have even mentioned the subject without a press release and they are just copying the company description from the press release without giving it a second thought. 2600:1003:B84D:C995:ADC2:271F:4A32:B3AB (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

This makes no sense. WP:RS is not over-ruled by vague guesses and claims that some reporters are lazy. HouseOfChange (talk) 21:11, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Why is it important to you that Everquote be described as a "marketplace" when "lead generator" [34] is a much more precise and accurate term for the service Everquote provides and that also appears in less potentially biased sources? 2600:1003:B84D:C995:F9C0:5EF4:6552:69A1 (talk) 04:56, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

You would think someone who has been here this long would do better.

I‘m sure Davey2010 is upset because he can’t unilaterally change things, being told to "fuck off" over an objection, because I simply said we as editors should leave the image of Billie Eilish alone, not do 2 more futile RfCs on it? I’m sure we have rules against this petulance. Behaving like some banned sockpuppets (Billiekhalidfan). Even I’m not this bellicose. ⌚️ (talk) 21:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Curious how you seem to be offended by the words "fuck" and "off" when they are said to you, yet you seem to think it's okay to use the word "fuck" on your user page which is read by others who may be offended. Cassianto^Talk 16:11, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Who said I was upset ?, I'm mellow as a cucumber, You came to an RFC complaining that we've already had 3 RFCs ... despite RFC 2 being withdrawn,

Your comment was utterly pointless and at that time I was pretty pissed you came to that RFC for the sole purpose of telling us "we already had 3".

Also context matters, I didn't randomly tell you to fuck off in a huff, I told you to either participate or in less-polite terms - leave, –Davey2010^Talk 22:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

And you think this is acceptable behavior when "mellow"? Do you need to brush up on this? ⌚️ (talk) 22:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

What's the saying I'm looking for.. "much ado about nothing", yeah, that's it. That sockpuppet suggestion is really inappropriate. Let's all fuck off and do something productive instead. - Alexis Jazz 22:26, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Both editors blocked 24 hours. I've warned Trillfendi several times before about personal attacks in edit summaries (or in general), and I said the last time I would not warn her again. Davey2010's "fuck off" comment is clearly meant as a directed personal attack. What's this about a sockpuppet investigation? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 22:31, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• "Clearly" to you, maybe, as it fits your woke narrative on "incivility", perfectly. To the rest of the world, however, it is language that is in common usage; those of us in the real world just roll with it. And what's this? One rule for admins, another for the rest of us? Cassianto^Talk 10:19, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Fighting for a meaner Wikipedia has got to be the single worst crusade. Cjhard (talk) 13:16, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Who's doing that? And why is telling someone to "fuck off" mean? Doesn't that differ from one person's view to another? It's people like Ivanvector who is sewing division among the community by treating one group of people differently to the rest. Cassianto^Talk 14:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Telling somebody to "f off" fails common and basic standards of civility. The proper way to say it is "Please, leave", or if that is not verbose enough, "Would you be inclined to stop your participation in the current matter and take a break?". But "f off" crosses a line and I don't see what point you're trying to make. 107.190.33.254 (talk) 14:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Log in of you want me to take your comment seriously. Cassianto^Talk 16:04, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

There was a recent RFC that was done that actually determined "fuck off" to not be inherently uncivil in terms of Wikipedia civility standards.--WaltCip (talk) 15:10, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Good. Plain common sense. Still waiting for Ivanvector to explain their obvious double standards, as linked to above. Cassianto^Talk 16:04, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

If telling someone to "fuck off" is civil, I think WP:CIVIL needs a rewrite. HouseOfChange (talk) 15:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a safe space, and sometimes you'll need to read things that you may disagree with. Someone's language is very much determined by the behaviour of others. Cassianto^Talk 16:04, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Courtesy link to the "fuck off" RFC. Schazjmd (talk) 16:13, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think Walt's description of the RFC outcome is accurate. The close was: ... most of us agree that "fuck off" is definitely uncivil in many contexts, and incivility is sanctionable, but consideration should be given to the surrounding context of each instance before deciding to apply sanctions. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:39, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

So in Davey's instance, he met fire with fire. So going by the RfC, his "fuck off" was therefore justified? So why the block? Or is it because Davey is not an administrator? Cassianto^Talk 16:46, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Both editors were blocked, I presume because neither editor's comments were justified. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Based upon that, do you agree with me that Ivanvector has displayed unfair behaviour here by blocking a non-admin for saying "fuck off", whilst last year, had jolly japes and gave a lukewarm warning to an administrator for doing the same thing? Cassianto^Talk 17:44, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I spent all day yesterday arguing about disparate treatment of myself and an admin. Generally speaking, do admin "get away with" stuff that regular editors don't? Yes, absolutely, we could both come up with many examples. (Is this the first time we've agreed on something?) Also the sky is blue and the sun rises in the East. But that doesn't mean that these blocks were wrong. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 18:00, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Faux pleasantries aside, absolutely this makes the blocks wrong. What has changed in the past year to warrant this "fuck off" worse than the other "fuck off"? Ivanvector set the precedent with his 2019 closure that in his opinion, "fuck off" was an offence worthy of a warning. Not here, and as far as I can see, they're both the same. So what's different? Cassianto^Talk 18:09, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't get it. Why are you complaining, you're not even the one being blocked. As far as I see, if "f off" is acceptable under WP:CIVIL; then I concur with HouseOfChange that WP:CIVIL requires some form of rewrite, because if you told somebody in any professional scenario to "f off" I assume you'd be met with quite a few unpleasant gazes and possibly, in some contexts, some unwelcome news... 107.190.33.254 (talk) 21:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Again, more subjective interpretation. You may find it "offensive", others don't. What makes you think your view matters more? If you don't like it, get over it. Offence is never given, it is taken. Cassianto^Talk 02:56, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Civility is one of the five pillars. "If you don't like it, get over it." is good advice that you should consider following. Cjhard (talk) 03:09, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe I "should consider" telling you what to do with your advice? Cassianto^Talk 06:30, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)There’s a limit to If you don't like it, get over it, otherwise WP:CIVIL wouldn’t exist as a policy and pillar. Interpreting the boundaries of civility is and always has been a matter of consensus, as most things here are. There is no clearly-defined line, and context always matters.

That said, I don’t the point of continuing this ANI thread. This issue seems to have been dealt with, and an appeal for grounds of a bad block or other misconduct is probably better fit at another venue at this point. There’s nothing to be gained here. — MarkH₂₁^talk 03:14, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I was not aware of the meaning of that choice of words as "leave" until I read a Neal Asher use it to say he was gong to leave. I thought of it as a derisive dismissal of an individual on most levels. --Deep fried okra User talk:Deepfriedokra 03:19, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: In no universe does telling someone to "fuck off" pass the civility test, unless there's a degree of humour, or the situation is especially diar. It's not the swearing that makes it uncivil, it's the obvious aggression. Telling him/her to "leave" would have sufficed just fine. The fact that we are having a conversation about whether or not users should be allowed to casually tell others to "fuck off" in itself is honestly ridiculous. I'm just imagining the ways that slippery slope could (and probably would) be abused and stretched in the future. Be civil, period. DarkKnight2149 04:55, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• ANI never disappoints, full of people dictating to the rest of us that their offence seems to makes them right and everyone else wrong. Ivanvector, possibly one of our worst admins, knows they have been caught out as they've been silent here. Woke has just got woker. Cassianto^Talk 06:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

How is the ever-simple concept of Telling someone to fuck off in a collaborative environment is uncivil considered "woke"? It's borderline common sense. If you like to want to use the term ironically (or in an especially ludacris situation), no one is going to stop you. But if you are in a conflict with someone and your response to them is "Go fuck off", then obviously you shouldn't be surprised when you get hit with an WP:NPA block. No offense, but your responses here are making it seem as though you want free reign to lampoon other users or something. DarkKnight2149 06:42, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

An especially ludacris situation.

-Cjhard

No, I just want to be able to be myself (someone who is not offended by the phrase) just as much as those who don't like the term to be able to be themselves. It takes a bigger person to be able to walk on by, having been told to "fuck off", rather than get all woke about it and hypocritically come to a drama board and complain of hurt feelings. The fact someone doesn't like to be told to "fuck off" doesn't make them right. That doesn't mean you can say it when you like, but when the situation dictates. When you've been trolled as many times as me, sometimes, "fuck" and "off" are the only two words that seem to make any sense. And in situations like that, I maintain my right to say it. Cassianto^Talk 09:45, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• So Ivanvector, Just wondering - When an admin tells someone in a hidden comment to fuck off you warn them, yet when I say it I'm blocked ?, Whether the comment was hidden or not the phrase was still used so why did you feel it was appropriate to only warn that admin yet block me ? ... I'm genuinely curious, Unless you're telling us all from this point forward regardless of whether the "fuck off"er is an admin or non-admin that you're still going to block them? (ofcourse fuck off used in humour is obviously excluded). –Davey2010^Talk 13:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi Davey2010, welcome back. These two discussions are not an apples-to-apples comparison. The discussion about JzG was a community discussion about general incivility which I closed based on my interpretation of the comments of other editors. As I described at the time, there was support for a sanction of some sort but not which one in particular; I didn't think that a block based on flimsy consensus three days after the incident would have been defensible. I don't know about JzG but personally I would find a long thread of my peers agreeing that I'd fucked up more convincing than one solo admin handing out a cowboy block after several days had passed.

As for this block, you made an aggressive personal comment to an editor who you were clearly in conflict with, with little provocation. You could have ignored the pointy comment, you could have attempted to engage the other editor in civil discussion, you could have simply made your point and moved on, if you thought the other editor was being needlessly disruptive you could have asked an admin to intervene, but you didn't do any of these, you went straight to "fuck off". That's why I blocked you. Besides being pointlessly uncivil, editors carrying out personal battles on talk pages is disruptive to everyone else.

To the general point: nobody is being blocked for saying "fuck". They're being blocked for incivility. If you don't understand the difference, maybe you should find other words to use. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:20, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Whether it was being incivil or using "fuck off" both of us were still being uncivil - only difference is one got warned and one got blocked,

I've seen far worse comments from admins and yet nothing happens with them ? ... Yet I lose my patience with someone who's unneedlessly complaining over an RFC and yet I get blocked for it,

I don't see the point in further arguing over this but in my eyes it feels like one rule for one, one rule for another that really is how it feels. –Davey2010^Talk 14:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Davey, you're right and it's not right. You have a right to be dissapointed with double-standards. Then again, I think it's fair to say that you have a history of being uncivil, so some introspection is due here, too. El_C 15:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

El C, to be fair, so does JzG. He has received many warnings. I'm sure I'm missing some, since these were in the archive, but he most recently was warned so that would be in the most recent archive.

• • Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1005#Threatened_with_block_by_edit-warring_admin_using_"fuckoff"_template
  • JzG is admonished
  • JzG is specifically admonished
  • JzG warned re civility
  • JzG is warned
  • JZG is warned Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:18, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware. That's why I spoke about double-standards. El_C 16:24, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Hey El_C, Absolutely agree and to a point agree that the block was actually deserved - The F Offs have been a thing for years and my first block for it was only in 2018 so I can't really complain over it but yeah the double standards to a point is really what gets me, Ah well onwards and upwards as they say! :), Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 16:22, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

In future for insults, add some Shakespeare as an addendum to the standard "Fuck off", ie "Thou damned and luxurious mountain goat", "Thou lump of foul deformity", "The rankest compound of villainous smell that ever offended nostril".--MONGO (talk) 16:55, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I quite like the goat one, I also like this one > "You whoreson cullionly barber-monger!" but no doubt that one would earn me a block, Would be worth it tho. –Davey2010^Talk 17:32, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Twelfth Night has "you wearer of only one stocking!", which will probably earn a trip to arbcom for...whatever. serial ^# 17:38, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

TMI but just spat my tea out with laughter, I would happily be taken to AN, ANI, Arbcom and then WMF-Office blocked all in that order just for that comment!. –Davey2010^Talk 18:04, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I always liked the following from David Eddings: I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen ... Is it possible thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat? And ending with: It speaks. Behold this wonder, my Lords and Ladies—a talking dog! El_C 20:02, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Tis time to pull out ye olde Shakespeare insult generator— Diannaa (talk) 02:31, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Off-topic post
The RFC's over the image are getting a little repetitive. ~ HAL333 19:23, 9 May 2020 (UTC) I don't appreciate being labelled as a troll. I was simply agreeing with Trillfendi's sentiment that the RfC's are getting a little old. We've already had 3 on the exact same topic this year. ~ HAL333 20:38, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Issues at Adam Riess

• Adam Riess (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I’m porting a complaint I got on my talk page here - I haven’t had time to go through everything since I’m on my phone but the IP editor, who claims to be Adam Riess, is extremely irritated about a back-and-forth happening between them and another editor on Adam Riess.

Dear Wikipedia

My name is Adam Riess and I am an American Astrophysicist and winner of the 2011 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the accelerating Universe and Dark Energy.

I recently noticed that there have been two efforts to “vandalize” my wikipedia entry

1). A user name BattleOrc (who I understand to be (Redacted)) has been putting in a section called “Controversy” about his teams work denying the existence of dark Energy. They are free to have their own opinion, but they are fringe and my bio entry is not an appropriate place to air their grievances and dispute with the Nobel Prize.

I have removed this section and explained why in the comments but BattleOrc keeps restoring it.

2) A section on the Calan/Tololo Survey seeking credit for the Nobel work. The Calan/Tololo Project has its own wikipedia entry and that is the appropriate place to discuss it. Not my bio entry.

I have removed this section (writing as 130.167.171.156) but BattleOrc keeps restoring it.

I consider these attempts to settle scores or air grievances in my biographical entry in appropriate at best and libelous at worst. My bio entry should be simple and to the point and not have sections on other people’s diatribes, respectfully.

I kindly request that my entry is “frozen” so that it can’t be edited again by BattleOrc.

I have no clue what to do with this, but the two involved editors are BattleOrc and 130.167.171.156. I’ve seen people trying to remove info about themselves before, but this feels a lot more complicated and I’d really like some insight as to how this would get handled if not just in the article’s talk page. ThadeusOfNazereth^{Talk to Me!} 04:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I've redacted some info due to WP:OUTING concerns. Nil Einne (talk) 05:01, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Nil Einne, thank you for that - Being on my phone I didn't get a chance to read it as thoroughly as I should have. ThadeusOfNazereth^{Talk to Me!} 11:20, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• I semi-protected Adam Riess with a note requesting discussion on talk page. If someone could double check that I did not just protect libel, that would be helpful. --Deep fried okra User talk:Deepfriedokra 05:26, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Deepfriedokra, I read both of the articles cited and didn't see any actual criticism (Riess' work was only mentioned once in each, and only in passing). I've gone ahead and removed both for being, at the very least, WP:OR violations, and mentioned it on the talk page. Morbidthoughts had already moved the other piece of offending material for not passing WP:RS. Hopefully this is the end of it. ThadeusOfNazereth^{Talk to Me!} 11:20, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

The criticisms from Subir Sarkar and coworkers are certainly not "fringe" though they are a minority view, but clearly they shouldn't be included without secondary sourcing. This is easy to find, but that discussion belongs on the talk page. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:02, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

ThadeusOfNazereth, I read the articles also but do not feel it's original research. The statements are verified as they discuss methodology and suggest an alternative explanation to the evidence of dark energy. Scientific colleagues will rarely directly criticise each other. The question about whether they belongs in the article is more about whether it's WP:UNDUE and belongs in an article about the expansion of the universe and dark energy than Riess even if it's his life work. Morbidthoughts (talk) 13:49, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Anti-vax campaign

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

JGabbard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• [35]
• [36]
• [37]
• [38]
• [39]
• [40]

This user appears to be on a personal campaign to whitewash anti-vax-related articles. I think they should be topic banned promptly. Normally, I would bring this through WP:AE, but I am in no mood to deal with this kind of nonsense during the pandemic and think that this may need to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

jps (talk) 15:17, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• Admin note/note to closer - I closed this discussion early as I saw a unanimous consensus in favour of a specific topic ban and assumed no chance that that consensus would migrate in another few hours. However, Barkeep49 has correctly pointed out to me that early closures are not allowed for ban discussions. Someone else should close this at the appropriate time, and since the spirit of the policy is to allow 24 hours for all interested community members to see and comment on the discussion, that it be allowed to run a full 24 hours from this timestamp. I apologize for my error and the inevitable confusion. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I have no sympathy for anti-vax arguments but we do need to be careful about using "conspiracy-theorist" in wiki voice in any BLP. This is especially true in the opening sentence. I'm generally uncomfortable with categories/also see links like Quackery, Snakeoil and conspiracy theorists in any BLP. In most of these cases I would personally argue the tags are likely correct but I don't think we should use them in something that is supposed to be an encyclopedia. The facts presented by the sources should be sufficient. The changes of categories from conspiracy to whistle blower is total BS. We don't have to use value laden labels but we shouldn't go the other way either. Springee (talk) 15:33, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

It is only when all available reliable sources identify a person as a conspiracy theorist that the identity is asserted in Wikipeida voice. WP:ASSERT is basically the guide here. I have seen many sources which identify the people in question as conspiracy theorists. I have seen none which reject that characterization, even implicitly. There is no need to dance around this. I am sympathetic with the idea that there might be more, shall we say, felicitous ways of getting across the information. Feel free to workshop that. But this is rather beside the point from the campaign that is going on here documented above. jps (talk) 15:50, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @JGabbard: Why are you pushing this? And in the middle of the worst pandemic since Spanish Flu, no less... Anti-vaxxation conspiracies have been long-debunked to the point of being a meme on the internet, and even if they weren't, we go by what reliable sources tell us. In the actual medical and scientific communities, there is no such controversy in relation to vaccinations. Please take the time to look over WP:Verifiability, WP:CS, WP:Advocacy, and WP:NPOV. Do not edit based on your beliefs, but what is verifiable. If there was a vaxxination conspiracy, which there isn't, it certainly wouldn't be from doctors/researchers with measly grant money (no pun intended). DarkKnight2149 15:46, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per jps; upon reviewing their edits, this isn't a borderline case, this is someone who clearly doesn't care that they're violating policy to whitewash false and dangerous pseudoscience. Rashid Buttar literally claimed that Anthony Fauci's lab created COVID-19; JGabbard removed the "conspiracy theorist" category and replaced it with "whistleblower". They have no business editing in this topicspace. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:47, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on pseudo/fringe science, COVID-19, and AP2. JGabbard has previously been topic-banned from US politics. JGabbard is making controversial edits to a number of areas, not just this:

• [41] apologia for Chuck Woolery's claims that Marx and Lenin were Jewish; introduces "Lenin was one-quarter Jewish" but the cited source says "As for Soviet leader Vladimir Lenin, his own Jewish background is even more tenuous. While he did have Jewish roots, these were distant and not at all known by his Bolshevik compatriots or his Soviet subjects."
• Edits noted above re Buttar and Mikovits (covered by discretionary sanctions on both pseudoscience and COVID-19)
• [42] Unsourced laundry list of WP:PEACOCK terms in Liz Crokin (also AP2, since she has been a noted QAnon supporter).

It is my impression that on the rare occasions JGabbard steps outside his habitual preserve of popular music, it is to Right Great Wrongs™, most of which are not wrong at all. Guy (help!) 16:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support topic ban (and last-straw notification for indef). I am in complete agreement with jps that there is no need to dance around the niceties of this debate. These subjects are not labeled as conspiracy theorists merely because they have doubts about the safety of vaccines, but because they propose the existence of substantial conspiracies, involving large portions of governments of countries all over the world, the scientific community, and pharmaceutical companies. Furthermore, "vaccine overload" is a nonsense concept, and calling it is a form of iatrogenic injury is comparable to inserting Bigfoot into the article on primates based on claims about its skeletal structure. A topic ban is warranted. BD2412 T 16:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

  BD2412, anyone who disputes that Buttar or Mikovits are conspiracy theorists, clearly hasn't been watching social media lately. Buttar especially: not just Covidiociy but 5G bullshit, chemtrails bullshit, anti-vax bullshit, Bill Gates bullshit and plenty more. And YouTube have taken several of his videos down as a result. Guy (help!) 17:03, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

• Someone who alters articles to say in Wikipedia's voice that COVID/5G claims are "yet unproven" when they previously said "false" needs an topc ban at the very least. I am actually tempted to indefinitely block them until they accept the topic ban and promise not to pull a stunt like that again. Black Kite (talk) 16:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• These edits are egregious violations of our policies and blatant advocacy of dangerous fringe POV. More than a topic ban is needed. Jgabbard has proven they are NOTHERE. -- Valjean (talk) 17:03, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Temporarily neutral - I'm leaning Support per NorthBySouthBaranof and BD2412, but I want to be fair and give JGabbard a chance to explain themselves first. If the user can't give a compelling reason for why they shouldn't be banned in a timely fashion, I am changing my vote to Support. DarkKnight2149 17:04, 7 May 2020 (UTC) Support topic ban on vaccinations, non-fictional diseases ("fiction" meaning movies, comics, etc), and conspiracy theories, broadly construed. DarkKnight2149 17:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• The fact that the American National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program and British Vaccine Damage Payment exist at all is a clear implication of iatrogenesis. Those programs provide compensation to victims of vaccine damage, and also provide pharmaceutical corporations with immunity from liability lawsuits when their products are demonstrated to cause harm, all of which is conveniently swept under the rug because of the "no-fault" clause. It is a thing, and needs to be addressed honestly on Wikipedia. All of my other edits above are based on WP:BLP, to avoid defamation/smears. My edits are all in good faith, in sincere efforts to promote both truth and objectivity. - JGabbard (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
  • These programs are public and report their cases and the outcomes, which is the opposite of anything being "swept under the rug". There are no secret settlements or NDA clauses here. That, however, has nothing to do with the nonsensical concept of "vaccine overload". As for BLP concerns, BLP only requires that characterizations be reliably sourced, which is not in question here. Your response, however, makes your intent more questionable. BD2412 T 17:37, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
  • There is enormous difference between the possibility that scientists may make a mistake, which has become ever more slimmer as science develops but is recognised by those agencies, and the conspiracy theories that you are following by denying that their proponents are conspiracy theorists. Just follow reliable sources, rather than the warped opinions of such people. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
  • JG, the fact that those programs exist is not proof of iatrogenesis. In large part those programs exist because, at the societal level, it makes more sense to pass a law and set up a fund rather than let every provider and pharama company play jury roulette each time someone claims to have been harmed by a vaccine. There was legitimate concern that pharma companies would get out of the vaccine business if they faced hugely expensive lawsuits every time there was a correlation between a vaccine and a bad outcome. I'm not going to vote on the tban but I would strongly suggest stating that you will back away from this subject and work through the consensus process else it looks like the topic ban will be inevitable. Springee (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
    • I concur with Springee. At this point, such a statement is the only thing that would cause me to recede my vote, and even then, we would need a final warning for an automatic topic ban if you go back to what you were doing before this report. DarkKnight2149 17:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• This response does not give me comfort. Changing a category on a page about someone who peddles G5 myths from 'Conspiracy theorist' to 'American whistleblower' seems entirely inexplicable. I'm happy to accept that these edits were made in good faith, as JGabbard asserts, but if that's the case then the lack of judgment is too poor to be editing articles in these areas, so I would support a TBan from this whole area. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on vaccinations, Covid-19 and conspiracy theories, broadly construed. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:34, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support indef. JGabbard, all the good faith in the world and attempts to defend what you mistakenly believe to be "truth" cannot make up for your blatant edits contrary to RS. Such edits violate NPOV by placing your editorial opinions above what RS say, and citing BLP as an excuse doesn't help you at all, because properly sourced negative content is not a BLP violation. You are NOTHERE. -- Valjean (talk) 17:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on vaccinations, Covid-19 and conspiracy theorists, broadly construed. This isn't close. O3000 (talk) 17:43, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on vaccinations, Covid-19 and conspiracy theorists, broadly construed, for all of the already noted reasons. Not entirely opposed to a full site ban given that they have standing topic bans already, and thus is showing a propensity for pushing debunked information and other falsehoods across other aspects of Wikipedia. At the very least, this sort of ban should also come with a clear last-straw admonition as well. --Jayron32 17:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on vaccinations, COVID-19 and conspiracy theories, broadly construed. --MrClog (talk) 18:09, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per everyone else. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:11, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support I guess, but pseudoscience is a DS topic. Why doesn't an admin just ban them from the area? Natureium (talk) 18:26, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on vaccinations, COVID-19 and conspiracy theories. Signed,The4lines |||| ^{(You Asked?) (What I have Done.)} 18:47, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• I am hearing all of you and your concerns, and appreciate your constructive criticism. I truly am here to help build the encyclopedia, as I believe the preponderance of my contributions indicate. I will back away from this subject and will also commit to working much more through the consensus process in the future where applicable. - JGabbard (talk) 18:57, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Relisted - see my note above. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Ivanvector, thank you for reopening. I think the fact that the editor has stated they will step away from these sorts of edits and has promised to take things to the talk page should be sufficient to show they understand the issue and the problem has gone away. They now have all the needed warnings and admins can tban them if the problem come back. I'm saying this not because I think their edits were improvements but because bans and blocks are meant to be protective, not punishments. I would prefer to err on the side of not acting. Disclaimer: I have not interacted with this editor in the past and I don't edit in the area of vaccines... and I think the Panic Virus was a good book. Springee (talk) 14:10, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Ivanvector, fair. Guy (help!) 17:05, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Reiterate previous support Just noting that my support for the TBan still stands despite JGabbard's stated intention to leave the subject alone (which I believe was made in good faith, and they intend to abide by). I encouraged them on their talk page not to let this bother then, and to continue the good work they do in musical areas. I'm not looking to be unduly harsh to them, but the diffs above convince me that they shouldn't be editing in this area. It can be tempting, despite good intentions, for someone to creep back into a subject area that interests them; I hope that a formal restriction would act as a curb to any such temptation, helping JGabbard to stay focussed on the areas where they do good work. If it's not necessary (because they don't want to edit in the area), then it won't be a hindrance; if it's a hindrance (because they want to edit in the area), then it would be necessary. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support topic ban - I cannot AGF in this instance that the editor will keep their word. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support topic ban broadly construed. Wikipedia is not an exercise in free speech where nutcases get equal time with reliable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 23:12, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• My iatrogenesis edit on the vaccine overload article reflects what I believe is an honest and accurate assessment of the annually increasing number of cases of vaccine injury resulting from overload, as tacitly acknowledged by the very large monetary judgments issued by the Court in favor of plaintiffs, and I am not persuaded otherwise. If that edit alone justifies an indefinite Tban, then so be it, and I accept it gladly. But concerning my other edits, I believe that these doctors, particularly Dr. Mikovits, are with each passing day in the process of being vindicated and having their public image transformed into whistleblowers if not also heroes. Notwithstanding, even allowing for that eventuality, my edits on their articles were both premature and disruptive, and in either case may be ample justification for a Tban, and for all of those edits I do offer a sincere apology. I would, however, make just this one request, that annual or semiannual reviews of my editing history be conducted in order to determine grounds for the Tban being either lifted or continued. Thank you. - JGabbard (talk) 11:12, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

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Edit warring on "Attraction to transgender people"

The last 13 edits on Attraction to transgender people are from editors either adding or removing the following line:

The term skoliosexual has been used to describe attraction to non-binary people.

References

Can an admin please protect the page? Maybe sanction some of the individuals involved in the edit war? User:Bandors in particular has clearly violated the 3RR with these three reverts today. But also I feel like several of the other people involved must have been aware they were involved in an edit war and just kept going. That includes: three IP editors (two of which are both from the 171.233.X.X range and so might be the same person; if they are they also violated 3RR), and everyone else who edited the page today: User:DIYeditor, User:Materialscientist and User: Waddie96. (User:Flyer22_Frozen also reverted the line twice but at the point she was involved it was not unambiguously an edit war, IMO.) Loki (talk) 04:55, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Seems overzealous. Even Bandors did not violate 3RR contrary to what you say, and I warned them on their talk page when it was clear it was becoming an edit war and they were just going to keep reverting. I think we were having some discussion via the edit summaries. Trying to warn (or sanction) the preeminent vandalism fighter Materialscientist is absurd. —DIYeditor (talk) 05:02, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• The page had this content to begin with, so the people reverting to restore the status quo so as to follow WP:BRD are obviously not at fault. Rather, the issue is Bandors and the near-singularly-focused IPs, who are the only ones trying to remove the sentence. I think it is safe to say the IPs are WP:LOUTSOCK or at best WP:MEAT, and if they are, 3RR has been violated already. I therefore support an edit warring and LOUTSOCK temp block on Bandors and the IPs. But note that I am not endorsing the sentence in question as WP:Due; I am focusing on the behavioral issue. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:10, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Agree with Crossroads above. comrade waddie96 (talk) 06:15, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• I did not violate the 3RR rule stated. Can you guys actually look at why I am trying to remove it? The sources are bunk. Huffpo source says Zucchini as a sexuality. It is a opinion piece, this is not a valid source. The other source mentions its source is "The Center for Sexual Pleasure and Health " which does not provide a link to the main source. Bad sources.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandors (talk • contribs) 09:00, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• I don't see how 13 (now 14!) edits that entirely consist of reverts to the same line is not an edit war. Every single edit to this page for the past TWO WEEKS has been inserting or removing the same line, without anybody going to the talk page about it. Even the people re-adding the line should have gone to the talk page about 6 edits ago. Loki (talk) 19:48, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Full Protection for 2 days: Participants are advised to take it to the talk page and not to start the war again once protection expires.--v/r - TP 23:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Repeated COYVIO

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While سب سے بڑی گڑبڑ has a number of editing issues, the most prominent one is that he is frequently restoring WP:COPYVIO on Battle of Chamb,[43] and claiming that he has "changed the content",[44] while the mass copyright violation continues. Attempts to mentor him about copyright violations have been futile so far.[45] Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 09:14, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Can you point out the copyvio in no uncertain terms? A few brief quotes from the respective article revision and source ought to do. El_C 13:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Here are the results of his recent edit that how much he has violated COPYVIO. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 13:52, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I have revdeleted the revisions due to copyvio. If they engage in copyvio again, they will be sanctioned. Please feel free to contact me personally if further violations take place. El_C 13:58, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

A revert was missed as the copyright material is still present in the article history ([46]).

I think I got em all now. El_C 17:42, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

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@El C: Nope. The copyvio is still present in the article history. Just copied the diff afresh to prove it. [47] 86.164.128.246 (talk) 13:53, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Change to all our welcome templates

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We recently had a change to our main welcome template....this of course did not fly over well with many old timers but most were willing to live with it as those familiar with the templates simply used others that still contained all the important links , But now we have ever template changed to this users preferred format and their favorite links with ZERO talk. This mass change to our templates had changed the wording all over and has resulted in the removed of links to our five pillars and to simple how to pages like the simplified MOS and links to our article wizard and how to edit a page....while at the same time highlighting their favorite links to be more dominate then the links related to the templates purpose. Really think we need a wider talk on the matter before a mass change to drop our main links that we have had for over a decade. The editor in question has been reverted a few time but do we really want to mass revert and cause more problems till we have a solution? As a NEW template editor who knows this may be contentious they should be following the rules outlined at Wikipedia:Template editor#When to seek discussion for template changes.--Moxy 🍁 13:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Aside from the obvious blunder here, I'm confused as to what possible benefit granting sdkb TPE has for the project...this right should be yanked until they explain this mess and you know...the need. Praxidicae (talk) 13:51, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Praxidicae, good shout, I have done this. It was probationary anyway - I think we can consider this as evidence that the user is not ready for this right. Courtesy ping Primefac, who granted the right. This is a WP:AGF thing I think: an excess of enthusiasm on Sdkb's part but nonetheless incompatible with the initial temporary grant of template editor rights. Guy (help!) 14:20, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for taking care of that Guy. As you say, this was largely an AGF thing - I had actually written out a rather large post at their initial application detailing why I felt they should not receive the right, but I felt that my personal opinions were getting too much in the way of a good faith request, so in self-reflection I opted to grant it temporarily to (if anything) prove myself wrong. I should have listened to my gut, I guess. Primefac (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Primefac, I think you did right, because the problem doesn't appear to have been that hard to fix. Guy (help!) 15:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Moxy, so revert it and discuss at an appropriate venue. Guy (help!) 13:51, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

(ec) I would revert all...but since I have had the same conflict with them over the main template and a few others ....think its best a third party do all the reverts. I got an email this morning asking WTF is going on by someone who cant revert because of the protection level involved.--Moxy 🍁 13:58, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Moxy, OK, done then. Guy (help!) 14:15, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Strongly agree; significant changes to templates should be vetted, or at the very least proposed first before being mass-implemented. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 13:53, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Strongly agree here too! -- Alexf^(talk) 14:25, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

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Hello all — this was obviously rather unpleasant to wake up to. There seems to be a large misunderstanding here that I was making edits with "ZERO talk" or consensus. That is not true. Some context: At the widely-attended Village Pump discussion on the standard welcome template that was closed last month, there was strong consensus in favor of the general changes proposed (reducing links, making the template more personal, and better visual design), and a rough consensus in favor of the specific proposed template. It's important to note that, while I respect much of the work Moxy has done, they were the primary dissenter, and have strenuously resisted implementation at several turns since. The main welcome template was subsequently updated, and at Template:Welcome-anon, we established with the closer over Moxy's lone objection that the changes carry to other welcome templates with the same basic structure as Template:Welcome. Prior to this change, I posted at Template talk:Welcome to see if anyone objected to adding the parameters that would be needed for the change, and no one replied (the welcome templates are a notoriously neglected area), so I went ahead and added them.

Regarding the merits of the change to wrappers, there is a clear need for consolidation among the welcome templates to help make them easier to maintain, within the spirit of WP:CONSOLIDATE. Many of them claimed to be e.g. "the same as the standard welcome, just with [variation]", when in fact they had drifted out of alignment not just years but many years ago. Thus, as an implementation of the VPR consensus, I had been updating them to bring them back into alignment and set them up to stay synced to the main welcome via use of a wrapper. I rolled out cautiously, starting with Template:Welcome-autosign a month ago (converting to a module on the 6th) and then Template:Welcome cookie on May 3. I also asked a brief question at the technical pump that didn't hide what I was working on. There were no objections raised, and I did extensive sandbox and testcase testing and confirmed that Twinkle still functioned properly. Given all that, I saw fit to roll out the change to other welcomes that had a very similar format to the standard welcome. It's important to note that most of them are very low use compared to the main welcome; only two or so were template-protected, and most allowed edits by all users. During implementation, I studiously took care not to make any radical changes to the wording (despite plenty of instances where it could really use a refresh—again, this is a neglected area where it's hard to have big discussions), and I preserved formatting at templates like {{Welcome-vandalism-fighter}}. I did not wrapperify templates that differed substantially from the format of the main welcome (e.g. {{Welcome screen}}, {{W-FAQ}}; my only recent edit at the latter is fixing an unambiguous copy error that has now been reintroduced), as was agreed here.

I am not surprised to see Moxy disgruntled, but I'm disappointed to see that this was already closed so quickly by the single sysop out of any on Wikipedia I'd consider most WP:INVOLVED with me (due to a recent unrelated matter), and that that sysop has subsequently reverted not just the changes I made turning the welcomes into wrappers, but what looks like it may be my entire history of template edits, including many from months or years ago that appear to have zero connection here (e.g. [48]). Given my extensive backlog, I have no clue what sort of errors or downgrades that might be reintroducing, but I'd expect that there will be plenty. There was no need to revert on such a massive scale so hastily given that nothing was broken, and the rollbacks are unquestionably doing more damage than whatever objections there might be to the wrapperification. I hope that it will be possible to fix this all up without too much effort.

Overall, it looks like I did move too quickly on this, and I certainly erred in using only a basic edit summary ("turning into a wrapper template to keep synced with main welcome") that didn't include a link to the discussions. I'm happy to open up a larger discussion on wrapperification, but I think the immediate pressing need here is to undo the damage from the far too blunt rollback (restoring everything prior to this edit apart from the {{Welcome cookie}} test should be sufficient). Apologies that this has ended up here, and my thanks to those of you putting in effort to review everything. Regards, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:00, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Courtesy pinging prior participants and others involved: @L235, Moxy, Praxidicae, Primefac, JzG, Ohnoitsjamie, Alexf, and Naypta: thanks for your attention{{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:00, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

In the interest of transparency, disclosing that I noticed on my watchlist Pppery undoing some of the individual rollback edits that broke things. I left a message on their talk page about cleaning up the damage from the rollback, and there is some discussion beginning there on that topic. I won't be making any direct edits to live templates while this thread is active. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:45, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Without comment as to the merits of granting or revoking the template editor role, I am very disappointed in the conduct of the user filing this ANI thread. Bringing a non-conduct dispute to ANI and, critically, withholding relevant context from the thread is misrepresenting the situation to the community. The filer failed to link to the relevant VPR discussion or to previous discussion at another welcome template talk page or to another one (all of which he vigorously participated in and knew were relevant). I understand that the filer and others feel strongly about this template, but this comes across as a trick designed to make Sdkb look more culpable. I also understand the filer's position that the consensus at VPR only applies to the {{welcome}} template and not to the others, and I think he's partially right about that, but it's really unfair to imply that all of these changes were entirely made without discussion and to neglect to mention Sdkb's likely position that the consensus covered the other templates. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 19:17, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

They were fully aware that this would be contentious and have out right lied that I am the only one that contested the changes (very disappointing to see this). What we have is an overzealous new editor that is all over the place trying to make changes and getting into conflicts in many placed over their persistent approach.--Moxy 🍁 21:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• So there's a lot to unwrap here. I'm in no position to be qualified to opine on the template editor role, so much like Kevin I won't even try and get into that. The discussion I had with Sdkb over at Template talk:Welcome-delete may be of interest; I asked in particular about whether consensus had been established, and Sdkb told me All of these templates started out as variations of the standard welcome template (you can find lots of old references to "same as the standard welcome but with..." for templates that are no longer actually the same), but they just drifted out of sync over time, so yeah, I think it can be assumed that the consensus ideal practice is to keep them synced, and converting to a wrapper will help with that in the future (it should have been done when these were created, but either people didn't know how or the functionality didn't exist back then).

  I'll freely admit I'm not the greatest fan of the new welcome template, and I hadn't seen that VPR discussion - but that's on me for not seeing it, not on Sdkb, who did obtain consensus for that change. Whether or not there was consensus to make all the other templates a wrapper, however, I can see is a point of contention. I'm inclined to say that there may well not have been, in fact, but I don't think Sdkb in any way intended for that to be the case, and I'm yet to see any evidence whatsoever that would call into doubt their good faith in all of these matters. They may have been mistaken in their modifications, which were definitely bold even if there was consensus, but I think it's clear from the extensive discussions they'd had on the subject that they were not operating in bad faith.

  I, like L235, am concerned by the way that Moxy went about this all; I think the quote from Template talk:Welcome-anon in response to Kevin politely suggesting that they perhaps ought to revert their good faith edits sums it up: Yes very bad close but it was not about this template. That said its a much bigger problem then just here. Will have to write up a proper RFC to fix all the problems we now have. Will revert to show good faith... will just need a better explanation so others not familiar with how to retain editors can understand. This quote, of course, was from a page that was not disclosed when this report was made to ANI. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Moxy's being deliberately antagonistic or acting in bad faith either; from their point of view, I can see that these changes are extremely frustrating, much more widespread than perhaps had been previously understood to be the case, and done by a relatively new template editor. However, it's possible they're unintentionally biased by their own opinions and experiences; the same reasoning we ask for uninvolved admins applies here IMO.

  I left a message on JzG's talk page talking about his reversion of a particular edit Sdkb had made to a page I was watching, and he quite happily reverted his rollback there, which is good. I hadn't, however, realised that he had been just rolling back all of Sdkb's template modifications, including the ones that they had made prior to being granted template editor and far prior to any of these modifications. Once again, I don't think this is a deliberate abuse, and I don't think it's bad faith, but I do think it was a mistake under the circumstances and not really warranted.

  The final thing I want to address here is the early "closure" of this ANI discussion: I'm really not sure it's appropriate in a case like this to have closed the discussion before the subject of the discussion has even been able to come to ANI and discuss the problem. There was no urgent reason to close that I can see: if participants felt urgent action was needed, they could have taken that action, but left the discussion open such that Sdkb was able to respond to the criticisms that had been levelled against them. Inevitably, such a closure just results in the discussion continuing, making the point of closure rather moot.

  Overall, I don't think there's sufficient evidence at the moment to suggest that this is a case of bad faith on any side - which is sort of what makes it so difficult. A lot of people have made various mistakes here, often by feeling they're really doing the right thing for the encyclopedia as a whole - which is a great feeling, and we ought to make sure we're not discouraging any editors from feeling that. I suggest we collectively take this as a learning opportunity for the future, and it'd be good to get a completely uninvolved administrator to review all of this and suggest some learning points for people (including myself!) where appropriate. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 20:16, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Yup still agree it was a very bad close. As stated in the close no consensus on links to use.... no consensus to use action buttons and definitely no consensus to change every template to the same thing whatever that is. Only consensus was to trim links. Because of this horrible close with little direction we are now here dealing with this over talking about how to retain the thousands of potential editor's that are losing interest about learning how to edit with the new format.--Moxy 🍁 21:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I think it's a bit early to be making claims like "we might be losing thousands of editors to this". If you look at that same graph over a longer period, the story is quite different. And that's not to mention, of course, the fact that "clicks on this help article in particular" are not the same as "new wiki users coming along and learning". Whilst I do appreciate your genuinely-held concern for ensuring new editors know what they're doing, I'm not sure this is the venue for it. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 21:43, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

The link your saying shows better stats shows me that it's even worse than I thought.....more the 80 percent give up on the first page....that page has zero data to help add a reference. We should be learing from our past mistakes...not trying them again for the 4th time.Wikipedia:Adventure was once a preferred link til the same type of data came up.--Moxy 🍁 21:55, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Naypta, my take: the tempalte editor right was granted in good faith, Sdkb acted in good faith, Moxy reported in good faith, several uninvolved editors and admins commented in good faith, and now we have a good faith fight about what to do with the aftermath :-)

I am happy to help fix whatever mess remains, of course. If only I knew what the consensus view is of "mess". Guy (help!) 21:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Ah, Wikipedia. Never change. The only place where this discussion isn't just a food fight I agree with you, JzG. I'd like to suggest that part of the solution to this is a full and formal RfC process, notwithstanding the previously closed discussion at VPR: I think there's now separate issues which have been raised, which need separate discussion, not just of the main welcome template but also of now all the other ones. In terms of the immediate aftermath - do we know if any welcome templates are currently in an unusable state? They might well have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. If they're currently usable, it might be best to leave them how they are now until a stronger consensus is obtained. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 21:43, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Naypta, an RfC makes perfect sense. Guy (help!) 21:48, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

If Sdkb and Moxy are happy with that, I'm happy to go and write one up in neutral text seeing as I'm only tangentially involved in any of this, probably on Wikipedia talk:Welcoming committee/Welcome templates (unless anyone has any better suggestions for a venue). And no, I didn't just accidentally transclude the entire article for the letter P onto the Incidents page briefly before fixing it, what are you talking about... Facepalm Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 21:52, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

@Naypta: I'd be happy with you opening an RfC at that page. Regarding timing, there's a lot of cleanup that needs to be done to reverse the damage caused by the mass rollback. That and addressing the conduct issues raised here is going to preoccupy myself and others in this area for a bit, so I think things may go smoother if we wait for this thread to settle and be closed before launching that, so that we can devote our attention to one thing at a time. But the decision is up to you. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:34, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.....now that we have raw data and guideline updates about accessibility the outcome should be more definitive in nature. I believe all those involved in one RFC should be notified and the 8 or so editors involved in talks at the individual templates should get a wider say. We currently have an odd problem that people are creating new welcome templates because of how upset they are about the changes.--Moxy 🍁 22:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I now use User:Johnuniq/Welcome. Johnuniq (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Note for closer: A previous reclose of this conversation was undone by the closer following discussion here. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 02:52, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Chuckwick 2020 getting serious

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Two months after the previous ANI report: User:Chuckwick 2020 - MOS:NUMERAL + no edit summaries, to which they never responded, Chuckwick 2020 remains uncommunicative despite half a dozen more warnings of various types. Though they occasionally make helpful edits, they continue pretty much daily with the same MOS:NUMERAL / MOS:STYLEVAR problems described before, e.g. [49], [50], [51], [52], etc. They've made several hundred edits in the last few months, and though they know how to make an edit summary: [53] they almost never do. Never used a talk page. You know when EEng talks about getting serious, it's, you know, serious... :-) --IamNotU (talk) 01:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I've blocked them indefinitely until they start to communicate on their talk page. Any administrator has my blessing to unblock if they start communicating and responding to other editor's concerns.--v/r - TP 01:26, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

As User:Jayjg suggested in the previous ANI discussion, it might be time to block the user to compel them to engage in discussion on their talk page. Citobun (talk) 01:26, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh that was quick. Thanks TP! Citobun (talk) 01:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

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Long-term spammer is back

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FYI Culturalresearch is back as 5.170.84.79, 5.179.181.131, 5.171.16.134, 5.171.196.59 and 5.171.241.196, whose spam circumvented controls for some times. --Vituzzu (talk) 01:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, those edits are now Stale. El_C 01:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Still worth attention, maybe an edit filter or a partial block would be advisable. --Vituzzu (talk) 09:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

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Editor doesn't care about MOS edits, but reverts them on the basis of being "unnecessary changes"

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Unfortunately, the otherwise productive editor Mztourist has been exhibiting extreme WP:OWNERSHIP behavior at the article Battle of Huế which they raised to GA status in January. They've opposed minor changes that they admit they don't care about, opposed the use of dispute resolution, and dismissed ownership warnings as "vandalism". All while refusing to engage in further discussion and consensus-building, hoping that outside editors go away.

Details
Mztourist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I made a few MOS:NOTUSA tweaks to the lead and infobox of the article (diff), but Mztourist believes that "passed GA review as drafted" is a sufficient reason to reject the changes. I brought up the MOS:NOTUSA issues to Talk:Battle of Huế#MOS:NOTUSA violations and proposed unrelated changes at Talk:Battle of Huế#Decluttering the lead paragraph. Across both discussions, Mztourist's reasonings for keeping the status quo consist solely of:

• Unnecessary changes as US is not too informal as used (diff)
• No, its fine as it is (diff).

Prompts for further discussion were met with:

• I don't need to offer anything more (diff)
• I don't agree with you and I don't think your proposal is an improvement (diff)

It doesn't help when Mztourist responds to the discussion with a silly put-down and an attempt to shoo away:

• OK if you really have nothing better to do (diff)
• Why have you come to this page and decided that it needed your "improvements" (diff)

In particular, there's no explanation besides WP:OWNERSHIP for Mztourist being so adamant about maintaining the status quo, since they admitted that:

• You clearly feel this is something very important, which I don't (diff).

Mztourist never responded to my point that they don't care about the MOS issue, yet still said I'm not letting go. I reminded Mztourist several times on the article talk page that WP:OWNERSHIP includes reverting solely on the assertion that other editors' contributions are unnecessary changes. Then, messages on their talk page about the ownership policy were met with "rmv vandalism", "rmv vandalism", and a talk page ban. Mztourist just doesn't get it and is acting disruptively by refusing to engage in consensus building and rejecting any external input, whether it is through discussion with me or through DR. — MarkH₂₁^talk 09:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Mztourist, I suggest you take this seriously and explain yourself. Why did you label their edits vandalism?Lurking shadow (talk) 10:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
  • I marked his two "Ownership warning"s on my talk page as vandalism, not any other edits. Are you even an Admin? Mztourist (talk) 10:45, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: The fact that an article has achieved GA status is certainly not a reason for not editing it if it can be improved. I would agree that there appears to be an ownership issue here, and would ask that you both resume discussing proposed changes on the article's Talk page, this time with a more constructive attitude. Deb (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  I would be still be very happy to continue discussing the proposed changes. I'm also still open to opening DR as I had suggested at the article talk page. — MarkH₂₁^talk 10:22, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Deb are you an Admin? Mztourist (talk) 13:25, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  @Mztourist: S/he is. --MrClog (talk) 13:29, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  MrClog thank you for confirming that it is not apparent from their User Page. Are you able to confirm whether or not User:Lurking shadow is an Admin as they do not even have a User Page. Mztourist (talk) 13:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  I am definitely not an admin.Lurking shadow (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  User:Lurking shadow then what are you doing here? Mztourist (talk) 15:48, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  What in the world does who's an admin have to do with anything? Are you an admin? So what? EEng 14:20, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  Not sure who this comment is directed at, but as this is ANI, I expect comments from Admins and involved parties only, hence my questions to the other parties who commented. Mztourist (talk) 15:48, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  While I suppose it's to your credit that you haven't spent much time at ANI, your comment shows you have at lot to learn about how things work. EEng 15:58, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  So tell me how things work. Are you an Admin? Why are you even here? Mztourist (talk) 16:05, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  No I'm not an admin, nor do admins have any special status here. EEng 16:41, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Response No WP:OWNERSHIP on my part, rather User:MarkH21 is insisting that his edits to Battle of Huế be accepted and making a big issue of things first on Talk:Battle of Huế then elevating it here and selectively abridging my comments. I reverted his initial changes which were poorly explained and then following WP:BRD engaged on the Talk Page over what I regard as a trivial issue of the MOS:NOTUSA but which MarkH21 seems to regard as very important and worthy of elevation. The relevant provision of the MOS that MarkH21 relies on is: "When the United States is mentioned with one or more other countries in the same sentence, U.S. or US may be too informal, especially at the first mention or as a noun instead of an adjective." I regard "may be too informal" as subjective and my full response (which MarkH21 did not include) was "Unnecessary changes as US is not too informal as used. As I said, this recently passed GA review and neither the reviewer then, nor I now, believe that such changes are required."

I should note that MarkH21 made a number of other changes to Battle of Hue to which I have raised no objection. MarkH21 then decided that the lead paragraph was "cluttered" and should be rewritten, I disagreed and a similar argument followed over that. Again MarkH21 has abridged what I wrote which was "I don't need to offer anything more. You say its cluttered, I don't agree with you and I don't think your proposal is an improvement."

MarkH21 also saw fit to post an "Ownership warning" on my Talk Page which I regarded as harasssment and deleted as vandalism, but which he saw fit to reinstate and which I again deleted and banned him from my Talk Page.

I'm not here on WP to have arguments, nor waste my time or those of others on trivial issues and I regard MarkH21's actions in filing this complaint to be a further attempt to WP:WIN and a waste of everyone's time. Mztourist (talk) 10:43, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

This still doesn’t make sense: if you don’t care about the edits and think it’s a trivial issue, then why do you insist on refusing all proposals? If you don’t care, then your refusal to allow any changes to go through is a waste of time.

Also, how does asking you on your talk page to recognize the WP:OWNERSHIP policy qualify as WP:VANDALISM in any sense? That’s a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia? Even bona fide harassment isn’t vandalism.

My opening of the talk page discussions and saying let me know your thoughts is hardly insisting that his edits to Battle of Huế be accepted. — MarkH₂₁^talk 10:51, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• What is this obvious content dispute doing here? If you feel that there's an issue here that specifically requires administrator attention, one or the other of you needs to say what it is; it's not our job to force people to comply with the (explicitly non-binding and non-enforceable) Manual of Style. ‑ Iridescent 13:47, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
  • The issue requiring attention is the conduct during that content dispute - here the conversation starts to focus on the contributor instead of content, followed by this post that has no arguments, followed by accusations of bad faith about non-suspicious behaviour :[54], followed by more arguments on the contributor :[55], then incorrect labeling of ownership warnings as vandalism: [56] [57] - that does look like a conduct problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lurking shadow (talk • contribs)
    • Its rich you accusing me of poor conduct when you don't even sign your comments. Can one of the Admins please advise on why non-Admin, uninvolved Users are commenting here? I have never seen this before in my limited experience on ANI. Mztourist (talk) 15:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

      Mztourist, as EEng correctly notes ANI is not limited to involved parties and Administrators. All members of the community are able to contribute. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:46, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

      • @Mztourist, this particular admin is telling you that (a) the whole point of this noticeboard is for uninvolved editors to comment as to whether an issue needs admin intervention, (b) you don't get to arbitrarily say that you won't listen to the opinions of non-admins, and (c) I've already told you that if you feel a situation needs admin intervention and isn't suitable for Wikipedia's normal dispute resolution processes, the onus is on you to explain why, otherwise you're just wasting our time. ‑ Iridescent 16:51, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
        • • Iridescent thank you, that has never been my understanding of how ANI works. My understanding was that a complaint is brought here and then the involved Users and Admin(s) discuss it. Mztourist (talk) 04:35, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
        • @Iridescent: The intervention is needed is for an admin / the community to warn Mztourist that their conduct here is blatant WP:OWNERSHIP. Mztourist is acting incredibly disruptively to the consensus-building process, using standard standard stonewalling tactics. They still don’t believe that their ownership is an issue, as demonstrated by their comments here and labeling of my messages about it as vandalism.
          I wanted to discuss the issue, and if that failed to resolve differences, then use DR. One can’t discuss if the other refuses, and in this case, Mztourist also objects to my suggestion to open DR. — MarkH₂₁^talk 17:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mztourist:, time for you to go and meet MarkH21 on the article Talk page now. Both of you should try to find a compromise. I will only issue a warning to one or both of you if I feel this dispute can't be resolved there. Deb (talk) 14:55, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

No thanks, after his behaviour towards me I don't feel like engaging with him. He can take his changes to RFC or another forum if he wishes and I will express my position there. Mztourist (talk) 15:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

The community doesn't invest its precious time in dispute resolution and RfCs just because one party doesn't feel like discussing. If you don't want to discuss then you lose, particularly on minor stylistic issues, and even more particularly if you've already said you don't even care about the changes. EEng 16:41, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Mztourist, to save you the time of looking, I am an administrator, although that does not mean much in this discussion which is open to everyone. If you do not care about the proposed changes, then step aside and allow them to be implemented. If you do care, then discuss the matter civilly on the article talk page. Though I am sure it was not your intention, your behavior looks suboptimal in this matter. Please reconsider. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:19, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• I hate to disagree with Iri but to me it's screamingly obvious that this is not a content dispute, but a conduct issue. Not only is Mz not working with Mark on the article talk page, but they're not working well with other editors on this page, either. Mz, you may not be interested in arguments and such, but communication and cooperation are not optional. If you don't want to talk to an editor on the talk page, then don't revert their edits on the article page. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 03:09, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
• I have expressed my opposition to MarkH21's changes, we will not reach any consensus and therefore further discussion between us on the Talk page is pointless. As we cannot reach consensus he can can elevate it to RFC or DR if he wishes. Mztourist (talk) 03:44, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
  • An editor can’t just stamp “no” on other editors’ changes without further discussion and force the community to use up editors’ time in DR. Opening DR due to an editor’s refusal to engage in consensus-building means wasting the time of other editors. But if that means wasting less collective time than continuation here at ANI, then I’ll open DR.
    This particular content issue aside, Mztourist still hasn’t acknowledged what several uninvolved editors have:
    • their ownership behavior,
    • their misunderstanding of what constitutes vandalism,
    • their obstruction to the consensus-building process.
    Their lack of policy/self-awareness leaves little confidence that their conduct issues won’t continue in the future. Perhaps it won’t be a major issue to experienced editors who can move past the stonewalling, but it will be a hurdle to new editors who encroach on “Mztourist’s articles”. — MarkH₂₁^talk 04:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Response The top of this page states that "This page is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems." which I hardly think this qualifies as despite MarkH21's efforts to so characterize me. Levivich you said that I am "not working well with other editors on this page, either. Mz, you may not be interested in arguments and such, but communication and cooperation are not optional." I disagree that I am not cooperating and discussing this. It was my (apparently incorrect) understanding that ANI was for involved Users and Admin(s) to discuss an issue so I was surprised that an uninvolved User like Lurking Shadow appeared to demand that I explain myself and so I questioned whether he was an Admin then later User:EEng appeared first with an uninformative comment and then "While I suppose it's to your credit that you haven't spent much time at ANI, your comment shows you have at lot to learn about how things work" which I regarded as snarky. To me this whole process has been unusual with the complaint being lodged at 09:44 and then Deb commenting at 10:17 before I had even had a chance to respond. When I did respond at 10:43 MarkH21 quickly responded at 10:51 pushing his position before the Admin(s) responded. As I said above and on the Talk Page I reject MarkH21's changes. Given his behaviour there and here any further discussion on the Talk Page will only lead to further acrimony between us and so as we cannot reach consensus he can elevate the content issue to DR or RFC and I note that at 04:27 above MarkH21 agrees to do this. I again reject MarkH21's characterization of me and my behaviour. Opposing some changes is not ownership. Mztourist (talk) 05:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Mztourist: simply, what is your policy-based reason for reverting the changes? — J947 ^[cont] 06:04, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
  • J947 All that I ever reverted was this: [58] which I regarded as unnecessary, User:MarkH21 explained that his changes were based on MOS:NOTUSA and we disagreed over whether the changes he made were necessary as the relevant part of MOS:NOTUSA states "When the United States is mentioned with one or more other countries in the same sentence, U.S. or US may be too informal, especially at the first mention or as a noun instead of an adjective" which I regard as subjective. Meanwhile MarkH21 made a further 10 changes to the page which I had no objection to, hardly ownership on my part. Mztourist (talk) 06:21, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
    • You’re the only one here who thinks that your stonewalling against these edits, an issue which you admitted you don’t think is important and which you refuse to discuss further, isn’t ownership.
      You should take the advice offered by Deb, Levivich, EEng, and Cullen328.
      Consider reading WP:OWNBEHAVIOR:

      An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.

      — MarkH₂₁^talk 06:44, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
      • This is just more of what I regard as MarkH21s WP:WIN behaviour, responding to most everything I write and hammering away at me. Why don't you tell us all exactly which edits I'm "stonewalling"? The MOS:NOTUSA issues have apparently been resolved. Mztourist (talk) 06:54, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
        • Responding to you isn’t WP:WIN behavior. Telling an editor to go work on other articles instead of the disputed one is WP:WIN behavior. Refusing to compromise on an edit that you find unimportant is WP:WIN behavior. WP:STONEWALLING literally says

          Status quo stonewalling is typified by an insistence on keeping a current version instead of adopting a proposed change, or reverting to the version prior to a disputed change (the status quo), and avoiding substantive discussion of the issues related to the change

          and

          Sometimes people argue against discussion on the grounds that discussion is a waste of time [...] raising such concerns to limit a discussion that has not already become wearisome, wasteful, repetitious, or otherwise undeserving of being further prolonged is inappropriate

          You’ve continued to avoid substantive discussion while exemplifying this behavior.
          Maybe you perceive it as hammering away at me, but that’s only because several editors have already said that you need to either engage in discussion or drop the issue. You just don’t hear them.
          Both sets of edits haven’t been resolved yet, with your edit and statement of No, I'm not letting go regarding the MOS:NOTUSA thread, and rejection of the proposed lead decluttering thread. Unfortunately, your refusal to use the talk page any further means that we will have to waste other editors’ time to resolve them. — MarkH₂₁^talk 07:15, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Tell us all exactly which MOS:NOTUSA edits I'm apparently "stonewalling" Mztourist (talk) 07:34, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've opened two RfCs: RfC on MOS:NOTUSA and RfC on lead paragraph wording. — MarkH₂₁^talk 07:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Partisan administration by El C

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I'd like to report this administrator regarding partisan administration. MehmetFarukSahin (talk) 09:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

First issue: admin makes a mistake and falsely warns me of introducing a mass change which I did not introduce. He also tells me to discuss the change.[59] I tell him I I did not make the mass change and reverted a mass change that was introduced.[60] He replies he "is not seeing it" and asks for diffs.[61] I submit them[62] and he admits he confused who introduced to mass change, but this time, he does not tell the real user who introduced to discuss it mass change to discuss the change.[63] MehmetFarukSahin (talk) 09:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Later on in the day, another user reverts the mass change that was introduced without discussion[64] and El C gets involved in the articles and mass restored the undiscussed content[65]. MehmetFarukSahin (talk) 09:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

MehmetFarukSahin, you are repeatedly making changes from "de jure" to "de facto" maps, in a highly contentious area. That seems like a bad idea to me. The onus is on you to achieve consensus for these changes. Where is the discussion where you have proposed this and obtained support? Guy (help!) 10:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

It was already in the de facto state until an editor mass changed it to de jure without consensus 2 days ago, file before reverts all reverting took place:[66]. Also the area which is contested on the map has a presence of two armed forces. Syrian Gov and Kurds. It was colored in shade tone to highlight its contestedness with presence of both forces. But than an user made it full color to show it as under total kurdish control without discussion. And it remains at is since than. MehmetFarukSahin (talk) 10:24, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

The problem is readily seen in the history at Shahba Canton where MehmetFarukSahin was reverted by two editors while trying to change the map, only for a new editor to repeat the edit. Similar appears to have happened on several articles. That's why El_C reverted the change. Investigation would be sure to reveal partisan editing, but not from El_C. Johnuniq (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

---

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:AntonSamuel_reported_by_User:MehmetFarukSahin_(Result:_no_violation). Both editors have been warned against edit warring, except this user has barely been here for a week and already they seem to be more interested in filing bogus reports than they are engaging in content-related discussion. Case in a point, they have yet to join the article talk page discussion (zero comments from them, or anyone but the original author). First, there's a bogus AN3 report (linked above) and now there's this bogus ANI report. It looks bad. El_C 10:30, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh, as for me not "seeing it," maybe it was because it didn't exist (twice). Then we have another new account engaging in mass reverting without any discussion, which I found to have been disruptive (details), whom I reverted. WP:GS/SCW allows me that discretion. El_C 10:40, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Update: both User:MehmetFarukSahin and User:GlobalMilInfo have been CU blocked. El_C 11:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Worldfoodhistory's repeated editting of Pilaf

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User:Worldfoodhistory has been given multiple warning for their repeated unsourced edits and blanking in a short period of time to Pilaf, as referenced on their User talk:Worldfoodhistory. It may be considered edit-warring behavior, but given his most recent edit summaries on Pilaf, I believe a more general issue in simple civility applies.

[67]: "stop lies against INdian foods history monument.s you are supposed to be education. but you have frauds who you let write lies. arabs Persians mugals never brought anyting to india but Indians gave them all they were thieves who ruled with violence and muslim Indians indo aryans deccans had their foods culture given to Persia arab mugals . indian build and cooked the arabs Persians mugals just enjoyed. stop your lies. we government and all societies lawyers are changing to truth. keep it honest"

[68]: "stop the lies againt india mugals arabs Persians inferior to india people foods culture civilization. indian muslims brought foods to mid east arabs Persians and indian muslims of hyderbad invented biryani the ugly barbarian mugal monkeys ate for energy. you want to get sued for such lies against india saying otherwise. do you"

[69]: Blanking text and citations.

SKay (talk) 10:19, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@ScottJKay: the user in question was already reported at WP:AIV for persistent vandalism beyond a level 4 warning, and has now been issued with a block. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 10:35, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Lilipo25 bullying through unsupported edits

I have been attempting to maintain balance and accuracy on the article Graham Linehan. There have been a small number of editors working alongside, who are also doing good work and are supportive of mine (I've received thanks for a number of edits). Unfortunately, the user Lilipo25 has been consistently edit-warring with all other editors and single-handedly pushing the article in one direction. In the talk page, they have been overtly hostile, freely throwing insults and allegations against other users, which already seems to have had the effect of pushing editors away from bothering with the article, and bullying through material which isn't supported by the wider editorial community. This previously led to mediated disputes with other editors, but is a more ongoing and general problem. Any help would be appreciated, and if I've not posted this to the right place then sorry!Wikiditm (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page. I have done so for you. Mysticdan (talk) 13:30, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'll make sure to do that in future if something like this happens again.Wikiditm (talk) 14:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Wikiditm Could you be specific (with diffs) about where you see them throwing insults and allegations against other users? That's a long discussion, and I can see that there is more tension than would be ideal, but from a skim over it I'm not seeing anything approaching a personal attack - perhaps I've missed something? GirthSummit _(blether) 13:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi. So the main tactic is allegations of bad faith against every other editor. Despite the fact that it is generally Lilipo25 edit-warring against a succession of other editors (they put the number at 10 in their response below), it is these other editors who are consistently accused of having agendas, ulterior motives, hounding, trying to intimidate, stalking etc. I think this can be seen on the talk page and edit history - what is meant by diffs?Wikiditm (talk) 14:27, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikiditm, this is a diff - it allows the reader to see exactly which comment you meant. If you are accusing someone of making inappropriate comments, it allows us to see precisely which comment you thought was inappropriate. I see a point where they ask you whether you have a COI, I don't see any direct allegations or insults - but perhaps I've overlooked something, which is why I was asking you to be specific. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:54, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm going to look up how to do that in future. Example comments from the talk page: "As you do not even have a Wikipedia account" "unlike you to wait weeks to post a Pink News smear job" "you're now just going to follow me around Wikipedia and harass me" "your bullying on another page" "You are WP: HOUNDING" "I figured you'd be along to join in" "trans activists who want this page to be as negative as possible" "The bias against Linehan in this entire article by people with an agenda is out of control" "stop deleting any edit that isn't entirely yours" "there is no way those angry at him will allow this article to be edited as an encyclopedia article rather than a tool of revenge on someone with whom they ideologically disagree" "are you a member of Stonewall or in any way involved with their organization?" "it makes sense to ask if they are a member of Stonewall editing on the organization's behalf" "I'm not here for faux outrage from any of you" <- If this kind of conduct is acceptable on wikipedia, then that's a shame, but I guess it can't be helped.Wikiditm (talk) 15:12, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you for notifying me, Mysticdan. I can't imagine how Wikiditm missed that big yellow warning about notifying other users when you start a discussion about them. Wikiditm is offended that I asked if they have a WP:COI and has also claimed that I accused them of stalking my private social media page to issue warnings that I stop editing the Linehan page. I have no idea which editor on that page it is who tracked down my private account and made the threats (although they were clear that they also edit there) and so never accused Wikiditm or anyone else of it. I merely stated that I will not be intimidated into not editing by it, whoever it is.

  The Linehan page is a mess and has been for over a year. A number of other editors have attempted to make it neutral and balanced, only to be overwhelmed by a group of about 10 people who are promoting an agenda rather than trying to write an unbiased encyclopedia article, and be bullied off the page. At one point, another editor assumed my sexual orientation and declared it a reason why I am "too involved' with the subject to edit a page about an Irish comedian. Every attempt to balance the article is reverted until anyone even trying to stop it from reading like a massive hit piece on a WP:BLP gives up. Ceoil, who has been regularly editing Wikipedia for at least 15 years, tried just hours ago to make it more balanced, but was promptly reverted, as always happens. The article only has "one direction", which is to give far too much weight to Linehan's views on a controversial issue and cast them entirely in a negative light. My pushing back has barely even made a tiny dent. Lilipo25 (talk) 14:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to agree with Lilipo. There is a very bitter history here, the subject is at pains to state he is a "Self-identification sceptic", which is a very different thing to "Anti-transgender activist". Also the article contains a number of unfounded allegations, mostly gathered on twitter and then fed through news feeds; I'm not so sure wiki is best served by becoming a collection for the like. To be clear, I don't particularly support Linehan's views (frankly I think he has dug himself into a hole), but I think they are being willyfully mis-represented here. That the revert warrior and blp avoiding complainant is pleading that they are attempting to maintain "balance and accuracy", is rich to say the least. My opinion...content issue, not for AN/I. Ceoil (talk) 15:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

In all of my edits I have made sure to cite relevant sources and give equal weight to both sides where possible, using quotation marks to most accurate summarise the views being expressed. This is surely the definition of balance and accuracy. If he has been misrepresented in some way, then it would make sense to have a discussion about this on the talk page surely?Wikiditm (talk) 15:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Patently false as you are both cherry picking and coatracking. You definition of "balance and accuracy" is frankly deluded, and though we cant fish, I suspect there s wholesale socking also at play. Ceoil (talk) 15:21, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok. From my perspective I have indeed been trying to maintain an article which is readable, accurate and balanced.Wikiditm (talk) 15:26, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Not true. Re coatracking, would be in fovour to trimming the section down to facts, and not having quotes from every blogger ever. Ceoil (talk) 15:37, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

If people feel the section needs to be trimmed down then I'd be very happy to do some of that work. It is entirely true that my mindset throughout, though, has been to maintain a balanced and accurate page. It seems very wrong to imply that I'm acting in bad faith when I'm just not.Wikiditm (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Many editors have attempted to "have discussions about this" with you on the talk page, Wikiditm. You simply refuse to answer for months if you are asked for proof of claims you make (such as your claim that a "consensus was reached" on using the biased "Anti-transgender activism" as a subject heading to represent his views), and when we begin a discussion without you, you ignore it and edit the page the way you want anyway, then revert anyone who tries to make it even slightly more neutral. Pretending now that you merely want to talk about it on the discussion page is disingenuous, to say the very least. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:31, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

If there can be a civil discussion on this topic on the talk page that would be great. The claim that "many editors have attempted to have discussions about this" with me is false. There haven't been any such attempts. The talk sections on specific edits all just dissolve into abuse and allegations from yourself against any editor who disagrees.Wikiditm (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

You have sabotaged every civil discussion by bypassing it and simply making the changes you want before any consensus is reached. You know this. And if you were genuinely trying to make the article neutral and balanced, you would stop doing things like using a tabloid web site that is engaged in numerous legal disputes with the article subject as your main source, and then deleting information from legitimate newspapers like The Spectator on the basis that they lean 'conservative' and you don't like that. Or including negative comments about him from transgender people who disagree with him but deleting any mention of sourced newspaper articles by transgender people who agree with his views and saying they can't be included because they are his supporters. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

A lot of this is misplaced grievance, and a lot of it is untrue. I hardly ever use PinkNews as a source - that's an ongoing argument you have with one of the other editors of the page. I have never deleted information because it came from The Spectator - I merely cut down the number of citations for a statement from an unwieldy 4 to a more appropriate 2, and happened to favour The Times sources over The Spectator. I have, in no instance, kept one viewpoint and deleted the opposite. I always make sure to include both sides, where possible, using quotations where I can to accurately summarise their views. Finally, I have never said that his supporters cannot be included - I've quoted his supporters in a number of relevant places!Wikiditm (talk) 16:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

For context this is an article with massive longstanding issues including WP:COATRACK, WP:UNDUE, WP:ATP and WP:NPOV. Frankly, some of the editors piling up these tendentious, garbage sources just to bash Linehan are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. So I am not surprised that Lilipo25 has run into aggression and petulance while trying hard to keep things on an even keel. I tried hard to improve it myself a while ago but ultimately had to self impose a sort of topic ban, deeming it a "lost cause". It's a shame because the article subject is a very notable comedy writer. That he sometimes debunks trans lobby extremism on Twitter probably merits a couple of lines at most. When high quality sources are out there it's ridiculous we shun them to crowbar in fringe blogs from the very shrieking loonies who fueled much of the nonsense and bad feeling in the first place! Yes, I'm looking at you, 'PinkNews'. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think this is accurate. If you view Linehan's television writing as his main claim to notability, and his anti-trans activism as just something he occasionally does, then I can understand why the article would appear to be a coatrack (it gives roughly equal coverage to these topics). However, the writing he did way back really isn't why he is notable today. If I google Graham Linehan the first page brings up 2 results relating to his writing work, 2 results which are neutral (such as his wiki article) and a full 6 results related to his activism relating to trans people. When he is interviewed on radio or television, there are frequently no questions about his writing work, with the entire interview devoted to his views on this issue. If someone hears about Linehan and wants to find out more, it is almost definite that they heard his name in relation to the transgender debate and wish to find out more. The article is right to reflect that. That said, this feels like a content issue which would be better discussed on the talk page of the article.Wikiditm (talk) 20:37, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

This response is full of your personal bias about the subject and not encyclopedia-worthy facts. Trying to prove that he's mostly notable for this controversy because "If I Google Graham Linehan, the first page brings up..." , for example, ignores the fact that the Google algorithm tailors search results according to each user's search history and page visits. What comes up for you when you google his name is at least partially reflective of what you spend time reading and searching for; it isn't what comes up for everyone. And saying "if someone hears about Linehan, it is almost definite they heard his name in relation to the transgender debate and are looking him up to find out more about that" is clear evidence of your editing bias here: you in fact have no idea how or why people hear about Linehan or why they might visit his Wikipedia article, and using your personal opinion of why they must have heard of him to make the article mostly about that is simply not good encyclopedia editing. Lilipo25 (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

This example was from a clean google search. It has nothing to do with my previous search history, and I never really search for related topics like this. It seems you are still assuming bad faith and hidden agendas when there are none - please stop! Yes there will be an element of subjectivity around what is considered notable, but the examples I gave above are good a reason as any - google searches for Linehan lean heavily towards his views on the transgender debate, his media appearances give almost total coverage to his views on this topic, his twitter account is devoted to it. This isn't my personal bias it's just reality. Every metric you might reasonably look at ties his name to the transgender debate first and his former job as a comedy writer second. Even despite this, I have actually cut a lot of material from the article over time, and kept it reasonably concise, a shorter length than is given to his writing work. This is why I don't consider it a coatrack.Wikiditm (talk) 06:52, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Sigh. Wikiditm, you are impossible. Dramatically crying out for me to "please stop!" as if you have been deeply wounded by my pointing out the simple fact that Google searches do not yield the same results for everyone? Declaring that to be "assuming hidden agendas"? Would Google be part of this deep conspiracy, then? Honestly, this is more textbook gaslighting and so typical of what you do whenever you are challenged. You have not been hurt here. You are not under attack. You are not a victim. If you can't handle someone pointing out any facts that contradict your claims without these dramatics, perhaps you need to take a breather from editing. Lilipo25 (talk) 07:17, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

As I said above, this is from a clean google search. If you do the same search incognito you will get the exact same results. I'm not gaslighting you. If you have a fact that contradicts something I've said above then please, by all means, share that! That would be much preferred to endless accusations of bias, agendas, etc. which are not productive in any sense.Wikiditm (talk) 07:25, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

You use this endless cycle of declaring that you have been attacked when you have not and then playing the deeply wounded victim as a means of bullying other editors into giving you your way. I have given in to it repeatedly because it is so difficult to reason with you when simple facts cause you to declare that you have been "accused' of things that have not been said and put on these silly "oh, please stop! please!" performances in hopes an admin will see it and think you're being picked on. Honestly, it's just exasperating. Your google searches do not yield the same results as everyone else. It doesn't matter if you claim they are "clean" searches: everyone else does not start from the same place you do. I realize I am now asking for another round of you swooning in agony over that fact, but there it is. Lilipo25 (talk) 07:40, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

If you log out of google, bring up an incognito tab, and search for Graham Linehan, you'll get the exact same results I got (with possible variation due to location differences). These are twitter, wiki, spiked, imdb, guardian, daily mail, irish times, independent and pink news.Wikiditm (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• There's certainly some evidence of whitewashing in this article. Linehan is not a "self-identification sceptic" however much he'd like to call himself that (also, it's a term with practically zero hits, so it's WP:OR anyway). He's definitely an anti-transgender activist though, he's even described himself as running on online campaign "against trans activists". The Stephanie Hayden section that is being removed repeatedly is probably the most notable of his escapades - it was the first ever deadnaming lawsuit and was far more widely covered in the mainstream press that most of the others in that section - it also resulted in him having a police warning. Indeed, since most production people don't want to touch him because of his views, it's probably the most notable thing that has happened to him in the last few years, so it's certainly not undue. Black Kite (talk) 18:58, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  Black Kite, no indeed. He's a TERF, though, and adjacent to a few TERFs in the UK and Ireland skeptical movement. Guy (help!) 20:46, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

  • Saying he is "against trans activists" and leaving out the rest of what he has said is exactly the sort of biasing of the article that is the problem. He has repeatedly said that his problem is not with trans people, but with trans activists who he feels bully women and shut down debate whenever they try to raise issues like trans inclusion in women's sports or women's changing rooms. The mention of the Stephanie Hayden lawsuit is another example: you do not mention that Hayden dropped all charges against Linehan, or that he disputes that he ever received any police warning at all (he has stated he spoke on the phone with an officer who asked him to block Hayden online after he already had, but was never given any official citation). Putting these things in the article without the rest of the information is creating bias with half-truths.Lilipo25 (talk) 21:08, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
    • We go by what reliable sources say. In the case of the police warning, it was reported that he had received one (telling him not to contact her at all) by the BBC, ITV, The Times, The Guardian, etc. Indeed, he even managed to call her a "misogynist" again in the statement he gave to the BBC confirming it. Yes, she did drop the charges, but that was later. If you want to find another heading for the "anti-transgender activism" section, please suggest it, but "self-identification sceptic" is an unsourceable nonsense. Black Kite (talk) 21:22, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
      • I don't know why "that was later" has anything to do with leaving that out; it has already happened now. Reliable sources have also reported, since the lawsuit was dropped and the gag order lifted, that there is no record of a legal citation being given to Linehan over the incident with Hayden, but that keeps being removed from the article.A number of editors have indeed suggested many neutral alternatives to "anti-transgender activism" but they are immediately reverted every time by Wikiditm with a note saying there was "consensus" that 'anti-transgender activism' is right. However, I have asked repeatedly to be shown the discussion where this consensus was reached, as I can find no evidence of it, but Wikiditm will never respond to that. Lilipo25 (talk) 21:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
        • Could you show the version of the article with those reliable sources in, please? I did try to look, but it's difficult to find with you and others persistently inserting and removing material. Black Kite (talk) 21:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Proposal

• I propose a one revert rule on the article for 3 months. One revert, per editor, per day to encourage discussion.--v/r - TP 16:53, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I definitely support this, though I don't know how often this rule is "broken" currently (it is a relatively slow-moving article). I also fear the issue around the talk page being so abusive currently would remain.Wikiditm (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Indeed, it appears it would be broken not at all. The problem isn't with speed of reversion. This is just a content dispute with guidelines implications, in line with Black Kite's observations. The solution lies elsewhere than XRR. --Bsherr (talk) 19:29, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a conduct dispute, not a content one. I feel if the conduct was improved then any content disputes could be adequately addressed on the talk page, but at the moment this is impossible.Wikiditm (talk) 08:02, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment if this is necessary, wouldn't it be easier for an uninvolved admin (can this be you User:TParis?) to just go ahead and place 1RR on the article rather than us !voting here? Unless I'm confused, this is already possible by following the WP:AC/DS#sanctions.page norms i.e. placing {{Ds/editnotice}} either for GG or BLP, and one of the purposes of having DS is to make it easier to get things under control by removing the need to establish community consensus for a restriction. Nil Einne (talk) 21:27, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I have to agree with Bsherr that it won't make much difference if a one revert rule is put on the article, as the problem is a content dispute and not speed of revision. However, I am not strictly opposed to the rule and if an Admin thinks it will help, don't have any strenuous objections. Lilipo25 (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Overuse of vandalism warnings and misuse of allegations

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I am tired of having User:GiantSnowman accusing me of vandalism on good faiths edits. Most recently on Adam Kay (footballer). I only reverted the edits so can restore the sourced content that was en masse removed by an IP. Yes the height was un-sourced and should be removed and that was my omission but there's no reason to go in so aggressively on my talk page. Being an admin doesn't mean you can bludgeon others with threats, I have had enough of this aggressive unpleasant way of communication it has been going on far too long Abcmaxx (talk) 14:13, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, you blindly reverted edits and actually restored vandalism. Perhaps my warning was harsh (and for that I apologise) but your editing was poor. GiantSnowman 14:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I also haven't warned you on your talk page since August 2016, so I am unsure why you think I am "bludgeoning" you. I'll also invite anybody who is interested to review Abcmaxx's talk page for numerous other warnings from numerous other editors, and make of that what they will... GiantSnowman 14:20, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• @GiantSnowman: Good faith edits are never vandalism. Trout to you, good sir! @Abcmaxx: It appears that after many years of editing, you're still struggling to understand some of our core policies. Maybe you should rethink your interaction with GiantSnowman and instead try to view him as a mentor? If he stopped templating you, could you take his comments in a more constructive way? Either way, this thread doesn't need administrator intervention, GiantSnowman has done nothing wrong and there is a snowballs chance in hell of a sanction against him.--v/r - TP 14:29, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@TParis: comments & trout noted & accepted. This is an editor who restored vandalism in a good faith but misguided attempt to remove vandalism, and who has a long history of questionable edits. I'm happy to try & mentor but others have tried and failed. GiantSnowman 14:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

They are mostly from you and one or two others, same culprits, you have used unsubstantiated claims and like this before and I have had enough. Feel sorry for any new editors who come across you. My edit was unintentional and certainly not vandalism. If you were truly interested in removing vandalism then you would have reverted a much more destructive edit which is what I have done in this instance. Also it is not the first time you are trying to label me as some kind of un-constructive vandal when that is just not true, even doing it now! Abcmaxx (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@T I'm not wanting a sanction, I want the aggressiveness and spamming my talk page to stop and to edit on peace knowing that if I male a mistake that does not make me a vandal. He's a poor mentor, with one or two exceptions somehow others are much easier to deal with and the problems have been resolved easily. Using a vandalism template for non-vandalism as a starting point is not ok therefore "I'm happy to try & mentor" is just not true, that's not how I see it at all Abcmaxx (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

"long history of questionable edits" - it certainly starting to feel very personal now and I am very unhappy and uncomfortable with such a comment Abcmaxx (talk) 14:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

If you want me to dig out diffs from years ago to back that up then let me know. You're still at it with edits like this, creating an intentional double redirect earlier today! GiantSnowman 14:45, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Well then fix it? How is that intentional? That's just your assumption. I am not sure what you're trying to achieve here? Ban me? Block me? Are trying to say I am harmful to Wikipedia? Because my edit history overall says otherwise, that doesn't mean that every edit is immaculate. Abcmaxx (talk) 14:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Nothing of the sort. You're the one who came to ANI, not me. Take TP's advice and move on, as I have. GiantSnowman 14:52, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Well then stop labelling me a vandal, spamming my talk page, and stop using loaded phrases such as "long history of questionable edits", "creating an intentional double redirect", "you blindly reverted edits", "your editing was poor", "others have tried and failed". If you have an issue with my edit, change it/correct it and move on. Abcmaxx (talk) 15:00, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

The issue here is that your attitude is "I don't care if I make a mistake, somebody else will clean it up" when it should be "I want to learn how to be a better editor". Expecting others to constantly clean up after you is shocking. At best you're lazy, at worst you're incompetent. GiantSnowman 15:02, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Abcmaxx: It's not just a couple of editors. Look, my point is this thread isn't going to close with any sort of administrator action. But reviewing your interactions with other editors, your approach is often combative from the get-go when anyone tries to discuss their concerns with your. Your page is littered with your combative attitudes even filtering out GiantSnowman. Let me ask, what do you want administrators to do at this noticeboard, right now?--v/r - TP 15:07, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
• Abcmaxx You do seem to have created a lot of issues that people don't like from the look of your talk page. I am pretty sure that GiantSnowman is using WP:TWINKLE, as that has a lot of different template warnings. It can be annoying for sure and I am sure some of those templates on your page shouldn't really be there. Even when GS uses them incorrectly I wouldn't expect him to apologise to you as he doesn't like to do that. His workload on wikipedia is ridicules, so it would be hard to determine where to start. Probably best if you make sure you make your edits are accurate and cite within RS rules. Peace. Govvy (talk) 15:11, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Govvy: 1) I don't use Twinkle and 2) I have already apologised... GiantSnowman 15:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Really? I don't see an apology to Abcmaxx here, nor on his talk page. Is the word "sorry" not in your vocabulary? Govvy (talk) 15:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Govvy: You obviously missed my very first reply to this thread where I said "I apologise". To apologise is to say sorry, just in case you didn't know. Perhaps you'd like to reciprocate to me? GiantSnowman 15:22, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

There's nothing on my talk page since late 2018 to suggest all this, digging up something from 4 years ago is unjust especially as its been 2 years since any kind of dispute. There's plenty on that talk page to show otherwise too. I can't help that whereas I may have been combative in the past, GiantSnowman is overly combative now, and quite clearly has a strong dislike of me as evident by this thread and I object to this gung-ho approach.

your attitude is "I don't care if I make a mistake, somebody else will clean it up" when it should be "I want to learn how to be a better editor". Expecting others to constantly clean up after you is shocking. - well as far as I see it a) since when anyone makes mistakes on purpose and b) you do realise this is a hobby and not a paid job. I never claimed to be perfect I never went for admin-ship or anything like that I know my limits. I an getting this impression that somehow I am doing all this on purpose just rile everyone up? Why would I do that? I have a lot of edits and 99% are absolutely fine, to pick put 1 or 2 that miss the mark feels very harsh.

His workload on wikipedia is ridicules - has time to give me a hard time though, and it's this aggressive welcome that made me combative in the past in the first place.

I think at this point it comes down to am I even welcome to stay on Wikipedia? For reference my input over the years [[70]] - is it really that bad to warrant comments such as above? I hate coming to ANI, have never done so nor do I find this a nice experience.

Abcmaxx (talk) 15:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

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Anthony Fauci

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My Father Allen D. Allen was the first one to discover that HIV triggered a flaw in the immune system that created a cytotoxic CD8 cell. Patent was filed 1995 Patent No 5424066. Not Dr. Fauci. I was there back then and he was on the antiretorvirals track. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:6780:4410:6DDB:9776:A663:317F (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

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LOrricoPR (single-purpose paid account)

LOrricoPR is a single-purpose paid account edit warring on the behalf of Joe Thomas (producer). Has been issued several warnings on their talk page. --ili (talk) 23:02, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• Since the user is not engaging and continues to make conflicted promotional edits, I have partially blocked from the article. Guy (help!) 23:10, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

PR users should not be editing pages of their employer, good move.--Bob not snob (talk) 05:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Block review request: User:Agenciamonterrey blocked by User:Rosguill

I'd appreciate it if I could get additional admins to weigh in on my block against this account. The account's name itself is a pretty clear violation of our no shared accounts policy. It appears to be affiliated with this talent agency. The account appears to have been engaging in undisclosed paid editing at Draft:Armando Molina, Festival Rock y Ruedas de Avándaro, and possibly more. If others endorse this block, we're going to need to go through their editing history and look for more cases of abuse. However, what's making me request a review for this case is that they've been around since 2014, and their edits have received warnings (albeit warnings unrelated to COI/UPE) from other admins (although I'm not sure that they were necessarily admins at the time) who do not appear to have taken any action regarding the username or likely paid editing, possibly due to a lack of Spanish-language comprehension. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• It's kinda weird to block someone four months after they were last active, but in this specific case I'd have to agree it was the right move. The username is a blatant violation and while they seem ot have some specialized knowledge on subjects where our coverage isn't great, they do also seem to have a pretty serious COI. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:12, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

  I've now gone through all of their contributions. They appear to have been pretty systematically promoting a whole bunch of figures associated with Festival Rock y Ruedas de Avándaro and 20th century Mexican counterculture. For better or for worse, many of these subjects do appear to have been significant figures in Mexican culture, so in some cases I've just tagged the pages with the {{upe}} maintenance template, although for some of the less notable looking subjects I've gone ahead and moved the articles to draftspace. As for the four months old bit, that is unfortunately the length of the NPP backlog right now. It looks like they also made several analogous "contributions" to Spanish Wikipedia, and I also noticed an account that seemed to be promoting the same topics on Russian Wikipedia. At a minimum I'm going to hop over and let the Spanish project know and it looks like they've already been blocked over there. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 02:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

This map is absolutely inaccurate

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Why this map published as these 2 China's own the island near in the Philippines sea?[71] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4455:660:7400:954D:4D8D:A622:F2A3 (talk) 02:35, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

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WP:OWN behaviour

I recently made some edits to the Cyberpunk 2077 article. These edits were minor and hardly cause for controversy; I simply sought to correct a grammatical error by breaking one sentence into two as I felt it was unclear what the subject of the sentence was. This edit was soon reverted by Cognissonance, who claimed that the original version was better. I tried to rewrite it to be more acceptable, but he claimed that there were no errors at all. I then posted an explanation on his talk page and he responded with the following:

Your edit sucks, that's why I undo it. You talk about problems in sentences, but frivolously repeat "team" and "CD Projekt", which makes the paragraph much worse. The lead has been copyedited by several people who do good work and I don't undo those edits.

This, I think, is a clear case of ownership behaviour. He is dismissive of edits that he disagrees with and clearly suggests that there is a group of editors who are allowed to edit the article if he deems their work suitable.

This is not the first time that I have encountered such behaviour from Cognissonance. While working on the Tenet article, I attempted to rewrite parts of it, only for Cognissonance to revert them. I found that the only way to make changes to the article was to first of all post lengthy explanations (such as this and this) on the article talk page. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Are you saying repeating the same words over and over is good prose? Cognissonance (talk) 05:22, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

It seems a little premature to be bringing this issue here. It's copy editing, folks — let's try to find a good way to word the paragraph without launching attacks on either side. Looking at the diffs, everyone here seems to be operating in good faith, and the level of tension seems higher than the situation calls for. I'd suggest further discussion, perhaps bringing in a few outside voices if needed, but I don't see anything to do here. In order to consider this WP:OWNBEHAVIOR, I'd need to see further evidence of repeated reverting of minor edits or reverting of minor edits that are more unambiguously an improvement. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 05:39, 10 May 2020 (UTC)