Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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Is User:Stevertigo a disruptive editor??

This section has been moved to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Stevertigo to free up space on this page. MuZemike

User:Vintagekits and User:Mooretwin

Mooretwin on User:Vintagekits

I have now become sufficiently irritated by User:Vintagekits' attacks on me and harassment of my editing to post a notice here. Here are a list of personal attacks: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

It now appears that the sole purpose of his presence on Wikipedia is to follow my edits and revert them. It seems clear to me that he uses my "user contributions" page for this purpose. On 10th August, for example, he turned up on obscure Northern Ireland football club pages in which he had never previously shown interest - purely to revert, e.g. Tandragee Rovers.

On 23rd September, he logged into Wikipedia and all he did was revert edits that I had made: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

He then left a message on my talk page, which I removed, only for him to revert. Mooretwin (talk) 09:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

With no knowledge of the rights and wrongs of this particular dispute, I can certainly confirm from experience that Vintagekits does have a regular and longstanding interest in the history of Irish football. – iridescent 09:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me as though Mooretwin refused to answer a perfectly reasonable question over why he is using a blogspot blog as a source in multiple articles, in the case of Eric Treverrow it is the only source in the article. The edit to Tandragee Rovers is perfectly correct too, as when Mick Hoy was playing that flag was not used. Mooretwin is more than aware that "Northern Irish" can be a contentious term when applied to people and is best avoided, yet for some reason he keeps using it even applying it to living people. O Fenian (talk) 09:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Neither of those opinions addresses the complaint. Mooretwin (talk) 10:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Claims of stalking have not substance at all, in addition to Vin having a longstanding interest in the history of Irish football they have also had a longstanding interest in the history. Posting on a editors user page as opposed to their talk page is wrong. --Domer48_'fenian' 10:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Asking you a legitimate question about your policy violations, or fixing your use of contentious terms or flags in inappropriate contexts is not harassment. Adding his question back may not have been unacceptable, but that was only brought about by your refusal to answer the question it seems. O Fenian (talk) 10:18, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• Vintagekits has long been considered one of "those" users - he does some excellent content work, but somehow can't quite grasp the idea that one should comment on the content, not the editor. His block log says it all; he makes personal attacks and comments, refuses to discuss them and then comes back for more. The version of WP:WQA found here is another example of his behaviour, and he's had multiple ANI threads before. Short of a block I really don't know what we're meant to do with him; he does excellent sports-related work, but does so with a potty mouth. Topic bans only work if the problem is with the editors attitude towards a certain area, and this is just a problem with his attitude. This is a prime example - while his actions were correct, his personal comments while making them (and elsewhere) were not. Ironholds (talk) 10:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

His actions weren't correct, unless one thinks that edit-warring is correct. His reverts on various club pages (Tandragee Rovers being only one example) were on the basis of an erroneous claim of precedent, subsequently debunked here. In any case, the complaint is less about the correctness of any individual reverts, but the fact that the user is clearly using WP merely to pursue me and to make personal attacks. Mooretwin (talk) 10:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Mooretwin often tendentiously edits, and often goes against consensus, as he does on the GAA article. Tfz 11:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow. That block list is as long as my arm. And his editing is a violation of the spirit of User:Vintagekits/terms, if not the terms. I highly suggest opening arbitration on this user, and the blocks never seem to stick, or be effective. Magog the Ogre (talk) 12:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

No, there's no "spirit" of the block; it was designed to keep him away from baronetcy/history articles after a series of disputes on the subjects, because he's a productive editor in other areas. His actions here do not at all violate the topic ban.

The notion of Mooretwin reporting another editor for "harassment of my editing" is, frankly, difficult to take seriously. This is not the forum for POINTY irony. A goodly proportion of the blocks were by warring Admins so should play no part in assessing the merits (none) of the current complaint. Sarah777 (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)Sarah777 (talk) 12:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• Quite frankly a long block is all I can see happening at the moment. He's been gradually excluded from topics where he works because of his attitude and incivility at those topics, and this has done nothing to stop him - he's just been rude elsewhere. Ironholds (talk) 14:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• From a review of the diff's supplied by Mooretwin I can see two instances of violation of WP:CIVIL - well, 3 actually but 1 & 2 are the same! - which I will speak to VK about. However, I see much amiss regarding the body of Mooretwin's complaint. VK is active in both Ireland related editing and sport subjects - there is no reason why he wouldn't edit Irish Football Team articles. I also find Mooretwin is being something more than tendatious when altering a BLP to denote the subject is Northern Irish rather than "from Northern Ireland". If VK is perhaps teetering on the limits of his conditions, it is because he is being poked with sharpened sticks. I seriously suggest that Mooretwin look at his own approach to matters before re-engaging with editors in this very sensitive area. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, thats not entirely accurate. Vk is no longer "active" in either Ireland related editing or sport subjects. He has expressed his intention to no longer edit articles, but to continue to contribute to discussions. This he has more or less adhered to this with the exception of reverting the edits of Mooretwin and one or two other editors, mainly on the issues of Irish/British nationality, every couple of days. There does come a point when this type of single purpose editing - essentially low-grade revert warring targeted on a few individuals - becomes an issue.

The only reason Vk was allowed back from his numerous indefinite blocks was because of his reputation as an excellent content contributer, which was seen by some as sufficiently valuable to counter the persistent incivility, abuse, personal attacks, threats, sockpuppeteering, and edit warring. If that content contribution is no longer occurring, and all we are left with is the personal attacks, confrontational attitude and edit warring, how exactly is this helping the project? Now I'm not advocating action in this instance and I don't condone the actions of Mooretwin on the Northern Irish issue either, but I also think its time we stopped using Vk's supposed excellent content contributions as continued justification for his poor behavior. Vk needs to be made aware that if all he intends to do is pop up once to twice a week to revert a few of his enemies contributions and then make a few personal attacks, then we have no need for him. Rockpocket 00:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not good to revert an editor's deletion of your post on their userpage. Having one's postings deleted in that fashion is 'regrettably' common (trust me, I know). GoodDay (talk) 17:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess it comes down to how thick skinned we expect people to be around here. Unfortunately that totally depends on which editor is slinging the insults. I agree with Rockpocket, but VK will come back to full-time editing eventually. Some of us just can't keep away, despite our best intentions. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 00:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support long or indefinite block. The incidents submitted are not very problematic individually, but as part of a pattern of conduct, they are. We are much too tolerant, in general, of editors who are (as the block log shows) incapable of observing basic rules of civil interaction. The disruption they cause generally outweighs the contributions they make.  Sandstein  05:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Mooretwin is causing disruption over many articles, and must be tackled. This[1] is the genre of tendentious editing he is involved in. He must be called to order. Tfz 16:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

LessHeard vanU says there is much amiss regarding the body of my complaint, because "VK is active in both Ireland related editing and sport subjects - there is no reason why he wouldn't edit Irish Football Team articles". He misses the point. VK has not shown any interest ever during my time on WIkipedia in editing articles relating to Irish League (i.e. Northern Ireland) or amateur/intermediate-level football in Northern Ireland. He had never posted on those sites and the only way he turned up on those sites was through following my edits. Also, it is a misrepresentation to say that I have been "altering a BLP to denote the subject is Northern Irish rather than "from Northern Ireland"". It is the other way round - VK has been altering these to change them from "Northern Irish" to "from Northern Ireland", presumably for some kind of political reason, based on the odd claim - supported by a small number of like-minded political editors - that "Northern Irish" is somehow "POV". The essence of this complaint is that the apparently sole purpose of VK's editing now is to pursue me and revert my edits. Mooretwin (talk) 09:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Stu, it all totally depends on who is slinging the insults. Rock has a high tolerance when it come to certain editors, but since he has stalked and hassled Vin enough to be told to leave him alone, pushing GD's comment out of the way to address LessHeard’s points an example of their want to counter a constructive comment. Sandstein, you ability to act as an impartial Admin is already being questioned, and your contribution hear is possibly one of the reasons why. While admitting that the incidents hear and not very problematic, they try to suggest that as a patter of conduct they are a problem. That again depends like Stu has said on who the editor is? For example, here is a pattern and compared to Vin’s not very problematic posts a very clear pattern, but its ignored. Or the whole heap of accusations being made in the course of this discussion with multiple abuses of incivility, personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith, and being spread across a number of pages [2] [3] [4]. Now neither Sandstein or Rock have mentioned Mooretwins pattern of behaviour at all, which again bears out Stu’s comments, and until such time as they do, ANI is simply a tool to further personal axes or as a form of harassment. --Domer48_'fenian' 10:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understood what I meant Domer, and I'm certain that I have no idea what you are talking about. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 11:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Likewise. I have no clue what Domer is claiming Sandstein I have done (Until we mention Mooretwin's behaviour - which I did - "ANI is simply a tool to further personal axes" WTF?); if you would like to me address your concerns, then you will need to clarify what you mean. Rockpocket 19:03, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• Until the close of the Eastern European Mailing List Arbcom case, any comment supporting Sandstein's views must be viewed with suspicion and discounted. Sandstein has been asked (and seems to be refusing) to lay down his tools pending the outcome of that case. I think this especially necessary when Sandstein takes it upon himself to comment on editors who have been involved in controversial political matters, as has Vintagekits. Sandstein's presence is at present guaranteed to exacerbate and confuse issues. Giano (talk) 11:15, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Vintagekits has no relation to Eastern Europe. His initial political interests (now protected by a topic ban) were on Ireland. Unless you're suggesting Sandstein is involved in a Secret British Mailing List as well this is completely irrelevant. Regardless, Sandstein is expressing his opinion as an editor, not as an admin. He'd be out of place to institute the block now he's "voted" anyway. Ironholds (talk) 11:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

There are certain similarities between the Rusavia's persecution by a politicaly operated mailing list and Vintagekit's persecution by a similar group of now banned users and socks, in both cases Admins have been fooled and tricked and Arbcom cases abused. My point is that it is concerning that Sandstein, with his history, is dropping by and advocating long blocks on subjects and editors of whom he presumably knows nothing. One wonders why? Giano (talk) 14:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I haven't seen any evidence, here or elsewhere, of a "similiar group of now banned users" persecuting Vintagekits. If you have evidence of this, feel free to drop it in at any time. Sandstein may well be familiar with vintagekits - he's at ANI so often that one doesn't need to work in the same content area to see his "work". Ironholds (talk) 16:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you so ignorant of VK's history - or are you trying (badly) to be amusing? You "have seen no evidence" - are you newly arrived of just trolling for trouble? Giano (talk) 18:43, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I've seen Vintagekits around here before in relation to the baronetcy thing, but I'm not aware of any cabal-esque action taken by other users to smear him. It's neither total ignorance, humour or trolling, simply a lack of (oh the irony) encyclopaedic knowledge. Ironholds (talk) 20:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Will VK still be aloud to work on the Boxing articles? I hope he'll be. GoodDay (talk) 14:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comment, this discussion pretty much sums up why I dont really edit here anymore. Mooretwin is possibly the most disruptive editor on wikipedia at the moment and consistantly ignores concensus and refuses to answer simply question with regards his interpretation to policy. Yet he comes he to bitch and provide a completely one side view of whats going on - totally slanted and without any balance at all but he still gets unquestioned support from the individuals that have pretty much driven me off here. Sandstein calls for an indefinate block - God you are laughable - please explain to me why I deserve an indefinate block (this should be good!) have you even looked at the links that Mooretwin has provided which he says breach NPA? Here are a few examples 1. correctly challenging calling someone "Northern Irish" to "from Northern Ireland" - is that a personal attack on Mooretwin? No! It's removing a POV and potentially BLP comment and replacing it with something that is neutral and factually accurate. 2. [5] telling him he was canvassing - which he does often and gets away with it despite multiple warnings - thats a personal attack? Saying he is editing in a POV and disruptive manner which was confirmed by admins - thats a personal attack? Asking him why he is using a blog as the only source for multiple articles! is that a personal attack?--Vintagekits (talk) 17:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Ironholds what do you mean by Sandstein has "voted" anyway? With baseless accusations like this tread, no wonder some editors are here so often. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Domer: His "support long/indefinite block" comment is similar to the sort of thing used in block/ban discussions here. Giano was implying that he shouldn't be taken into account because of his actions with the tools elsewhere, I was pointing out that he wasn't offering to use the tools here, he was simply "voting" (which would prevent him from "tooling up" altogether. Ironholds (talk) 20:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Though it goes against the spirit of Collaboration, perhaps an agreement between VK & MT can be reached. Howabout each editor not showing up at an article where the other is at? Also neither editor post at the other's talkpage? GoodDay (talk) 18:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Eh - no! I was forced away from the Baronet articles to appease Kittybrewster and the issue I was there for still hasnt been sorted. Mooretwin is busy pushing his POV on wikipedia there doesnt seem to be anyone keeping an eye on him. I've done nothing wrong - just because the usual suspects - Rockpocket, Sandstein and Ironholds turn up to back up Mooretwins moronic rantings here doesnt mean that what he says are correct - because it isnt - thankfully others here have been quick to point that out. Mooretwin's objective is to try and some sort of topic ban or such other tools put in place so that he can carry on pushing his POV.--Vintagekits (talk) 18:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I figured it would serve both of you best, if you both avoided each other. GoodDay (talk) 18:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: Vintagekits' topic ban as listed at /terms has been superseded by another topic ban, and the Arbitration Committee confirmed that ban by motion /terms is historical and should probably be deleted. It is in any case, not topical.--Tznkai (talk) 19:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• This is a user who is on the cusp between problem and "vested". Laughably, here Vintagekits asks how it is possible to sort out an issue if an editor deletes a comment, when inded s/he reverted my attempt to sort out an issue. Not an impressive stance. This resulted in a block (one that was supported by many other I might add). My patience has already been exhausted but I feel the community may wish to give this editor "another chance". Regretably, I think that this is consensus and that this thread probably is not going to go any furher. Arbitration is, I feel, likely to be unproductive. Bluntly - give Vintagekits enought rope. We don't do vested conributors around here. Pedro :  Chat  20:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Coming at this with no previous interest in football or Vintagekits (but of both British and Irish background, so familiar with the issue), can I just point out that Mooretwin is either POV pushing or (unlikely, but en-Wikipedia is occasionally edited by folks from such as the Far East who occasionally make such faux pas) ignorant of the issue. "Northern Irish" is not a nationality - one group of occupants of the six counties views themselves as Irish, the other group as British. Neither would use the term to describe themselves, and reversion by somebody is inevitable. Mooretwins protestations that the reversion is by Vintagekits is therefore without merit, and should be at the minimum (if Mooretwin xyrself is not to warrant examination) be disregarded. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Excuse my frankness, but that is complete nonsense based on entirely fallacious and simplistic reasoning. It does not follow that because someone views him or herself as British or Irish that he or she therefore does not view him or herself as Northern Irish. There is no evidence to support such a fallacy. It is, ironically, a POV.
• Vintagekits succeeded in getting a category (or categories) changed from "Northern Irish" to "from Northern Ireland", but with the express outcome that no precedent had been set. I created some stubs and wrote them in the "house style" which refers to "Northern Irish" (or "English" or "Scottish", etc.) footballers.
• In any case, this all misses the point. It doesn't matter what particular edits Vintagekits is reverting: the complaint is that, in addition to the personal attacks and incivility, his sole purpose on WP now appears to be to follow me around in order to revert me. He has turned up out of the blue at various articles on which he has never edited, solely to revert me. He has logged on to Wikipedia, checked out my contributions, reverted my edits, and then logged off.
• Ironically, in attempting to defend himself, Vintagekits has continued to attack me on this page, calling me a "POV pusher", (ironically) saying I am "possibly the most disruptive editor on Wikipedia" and referring to "moronic rantings". I am not pushing any POV: on the contrary, I wish to remove POV from Wikipedia. Mooretwin (talk) 22:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support long or indefinite block per Sandstein. --John (talk) 13:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• Here[6] is Mooretwin using the system for more of his disruption. He's perfectly entitled to do that, I know, but it's edit after edit after edit. Someone has to watch his tendentious editing. Tfz 14:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The above comment appears to have no relevance to this section, which is about Vintagekits. This is the third intervention that TfZ has made here, each time to attack me, with odd examples of edits that he doesn't like, and at no time to comment on the subject of the incident. Mooretwin (talk) 14:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, because it reflects on your motive to rid opposition from other editors. I attacked your continuous disruptive editing, and not you. You claim that you are removing pov, but in my experience that is the worst form of editing that can happen here at Wikipedia. You basically remove edits you wp:idontlikeit, and there is much that can come under that heading for almost all editors, but they don't do that. You are already making tendentious edits[7] to Ireland related articles when the linking is still being discussed at IRCOLL. Tfz 15:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Please restrict comments here to the topic. Your accusations are not appropriate here. Mooretwin (talk) 19:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The comments are appropriate here. This discussion should be closed and you should be told that your use of Northern Irish, or a loyalist flag to represent NI must be discouraged. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Diffs please for that last? --John (talk) 20:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

If you read the discussion you would notice they have already been provided. You did read the discussion before commenting didn't you? --Domer48_'fenian' 21:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

In the absense of any diffs to back up Domer's accusation, we should warn Mooretwin, block Vintagekits indef, and get on with improving the encyclopedia. --John (talk) 22:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Warn me for what?? Mooretwin (talk) 07:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Haven't seen reason to indeff vintagekits yet either. This thread seems pretty incomprehensible as it is.--Tznkai (talk) 22:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Tznkai time to close this spiraling mess. BigDunc 08:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Vintagekits on User:Mooretwin

• Mooretwin (talk · contribs)

Recently this user has been creating a number of articles with the sole source being a blog which does not satisfy WP:RS. For example see, Clancy McDermott, Eric Treverrow, George Dunlop (footballer) and Sammy Hughes (footballer).

I attempted to raise the issue on his talk page but my comment was deleted without reply. When I restored the comment it was then removed by another editor who outlined that I should not restore comments on another editors talkpage if they have deleted them. So I have come here to get an admin to step in and sort it out.--Vintagekits (talk) 11:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you take it to Articles for Deletion? Don't see what this has got to do with ANI. Mooretwin (talk) 13:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Is that your response to why you are using a blog as the only source to create an article? It is precisely that kind of answer what I am here and why you cause so much trouble.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

VK - even assuming you are entirely accurate in assessing the RS issue here, this would be a routine page deletion discussion. Unless you are asserting he's inserting intentionally false material (creating hoax articles), creation of poorly sourced articles is not an admin noticeboard issue. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 17:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe its part of a multi fronted campaign of general low level distruption. I am not calling into question the notability of the individuals to which the articles relate I am highlighting Mooretwins use of blogs to build articles and his refusal to discuss to issue or even answer simple polite questions as to why he is using it.--Vintagekits (talk) 18:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

VK is assuming nothing, he is entirely accurate in assessing the RS issue here. Mooretwin is inserting intentionally and knowingly, contentious information, be it on flags or the term Northern Irish. I agree that this is not an admin noticeboard issue and should be closed. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The usage of 'Northern Irish' should be discouraged, as it's a very sensative term. GoodDay (talk) 20:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• Any chance Mooretwin could comment on why he is using a blog as the only source for articles or is it just drama he crave??? I thought this place was for sortin shit out!--Vintagekits (talk) 20:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry concerns with User:Bluedogtn et al.

• moved from Wikipedia talk:Sock puppetry#Limit on legitimate alternative accounts → ROUX ₪ 20:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

“ I've been querying a user recently and following the most recent admission they they seem to have 24 "legitimate" socks, which seems ridiculous. Additionally they quite often sign from one account with the signature of another account. I'm quite uncomfortable by all of this but I don't really know where to take it, so thought I'd ask here. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 10:01, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• This has a little crossover with WP:SIGNATURE. I believe it is disruptive to not link to a userpage (my strong preference for usertalk) when editing a page that is supposed to be signed. The disruption is not immediate, but manifests later when trying to review, as we do a lot around here. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

That particular cluster of accounts is, IMHO, a serious problem. I'm on record stating that alternate accounts shouldn't be permitted, period (apart from one account for public/insecure terminals), so I may be biased. But that enormous number guarantees an ability to edit disruptively without scrutiny. Yes yes, AGF, but the parent account has edited disruptively, due to losing an argument about some navboxes. He then went on to announce his intent to deliberately disrupt other navboxes because he couldn't get his way. I certainly don't have the time or interest to look through contribs from what, 24 accounts? And I doubt anyone else does either. Which is basically the problem here. I would support a motion to restrict this user to one account. → ROUX ₪ 15:33, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

This does seem problematic. I looked into some of the accounts and found considerable overlap in editing between them: [8]. That shows 181 articles edited by two or more accounts, including 21 edited by three accounts. I concur with Roux that the editor should be asked to use just one account.   Will Beback  talk  19:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

”

Having looked at all 24 accounts via the Wikistalk tool, the concerns raised are more grave. (Report here). 343 pages (mainspace and template, mostly) have been edited by at least two of the accounts listed, many by three, and a couple by four or more.

Now, disclosures:

• Bluedogtn has indeed disclosed on all relevant user talk pages that each account is an alternate
• Poking through ten at random, there are no entries in block logs, though on some of the talkpages there seems to have been some strange editwarring and multiple edits by multiple accounts
• I was involved in a minor dispute with Bluedogtn some months ago. It spilled over from his being upset about not being allowed to include an image in a navbox to going on a deliberately disruptive/pointy spree of removing them from other navboxes against consensus. He was a minority of one in the dispute; User:Thumperward was party to the initial cause.

However, there are several concerns here:

• Overlap of edits. Given that I don't receive paycheques with the WMF logo on them, I haven't gone through each diff (which is really one of the problems here; it's nigh-on impossible to go through that many edits on that many accounts to find evidence of problematic behaviour that constitutes a pattern. Given the problems with the parent account's edits, I would be flabbergasted if there are none with the alternates). However, the multiple edits by multiple accounts is prima facie bad form if not outright forbidden;
• This many accounts can be used as an avenue for evading scrutiny
• The usernames themselves are problematic; Bluedogtn referring to himself as an authority seems to go against the spirit if not the black letter of the username policy
• Two accounts commenting in a Featured List discussion here, with no disclosure that they are the same person--indeed, the wording seems to indicate they are supposed to be viewed as two separate entities. And again here, with the IP posting as a separate user.
• Three accounts added as members of a Wikiproject, corrected three weeks later.

Per my initial suggestion at the Sockpuppetry page and Will Beback's agreement, I propose that Bluedogtn be restricted to use of one account and one only. → ROUX ₪ 20:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• User:Bluedogtn has been notified. Should I notify the other 23 accounts?

I've notified him at User talk:98.240.44.215, which seems to be his most active identity at the moment.   Will Beback  talk  20:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support a limitation. Thanks to the reporting party for the excellent research. Ironholds (talk) 22:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'd echo this suggestion and have been tracking this since I made the connection between the accounts this week. This user has disagreed and then requested help from a user using different accounts which is concerning. Some recent admissions were made after I had informed them I was aware of accounts operating in a manner against policy. Additionally I am very uneasy of a user registering an opinion on an AfD as one account and then later deciding to attribute it to another account. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
• Limit to one account as a preventative measure to avoid the certainty of confusion and possibility of disruption. Do it by block if necessary, but I hope the user will cooperate without our needing to do this. DGG ( talk ) 22:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I saw the same thing a while ago. Didn't this person have a breakdown and tried to leave the encyclopedia? Or has this person come back? MuZemike 22:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes here, here and here. Which led to semi-retirements for Bluedogtn, TennisAuthority, GolfAuthority. However the IP never stopped editing. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 23:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Right. That's why I have requested Checkuser as below. MuZemike 23:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Bluedogtn

I have been a bad bad wikipedian, shame on me! I just see hypocracy on here with stuff diverting from the rules and it makes me sad! How do the Canadian and Israeli Navboxes get special treatment, and a non-American says I can't do the same with the American one! I recognize, I have created some sports navboxes that are colorful, but that goes in line with the ones created before! I just wanted one set standard to have on wikipedia for all navboxes to allow for all customization or none at all! Some think they get consesus for a navbox in one project and think they can subvert the navbox rules as a whole I have the TennisAuthority account because I was trying to show that Authority and Expert like Tennisexpert, who I despised accounts need to be forbidden on wikipedia. I have created much more good content on here on Tennis, Golf, and Basketball articles than I have been well you fill in the word. I just created the TW-RF account three months ago because of a dispute we had about rivalry pages, and I wanted to just do that so, I could get some work done on here on thinks disconsidered go look at those sandboxes 3-9 for that! I found [www.answers.com Answers] was using our content to make money, which made me mad, but I got over it, and came back to help on here too! I created the TN-IS account about two weeks ago because I had 1717 edits on TW-RF and I am a superstitious guy, but I accidently had the account logged in and edited the Medinah article! Go look at my edits to see all that I have contributed and the long hours I have put into this wiki to create good consistent consise content! I am sad to have to leave wikipedia, but I tried to get on here with the ultimate goal of becoming an Admin one day, and that will no longer happen! I have obsessioncumplusive disorder that is the reason for the many accounts! I am so sorry goodbye and close out or block my accounts I don't care, I have been driven from wikipedia for the last begotten time! I just wanted to see the content Don Lope created get to FL status because look at how long he has been gone, and I was trying to do it for him and his hard work, but I guess I will not get to see that happen because I will be no longer apart of it! GOD BLESS!_BLuE^DOgTn 23:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Can a Checkuser look at these accounts, please? MuZemike 23:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead and delete all my account, please and it is over and done! No one has ever appreciate me on here at all, and I cant take this crap for nothing anymore!_BLuE^DOgTn 23:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes well you've said that before, and continued editing. Will you voluntarily restrict yourself to a single account? That means one, whether you choose a named account or your IP is largely immaterial at this point. → ROUX ₪ 01:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

No one is asking Bluedogtn to stop editing. It's only a request for him edit while using just one account.   Will Beback  talk  02:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I've never been a sockpuppet because in any forum on here I always contribute as one user such as TennisAuthority in tennis until the spat of the rivalry pages. I then went and created TW-RF and that was to do some matenience on Tennis Articles, but that was it until Don Lope quit editing, and I took up the mantle of FL drive. I guess I could never become an Admin with any of these accounts, so why keep on going, when my ultimate goal has been derailed. I will edit using this account from here on out if I even do anymore...I used to love this place now I am beginning to regret all that I have done on this project. I now see you all points, which I will acquiese to them! But, I am still vehementally unhappy with the navbox issues on wikipedia! How can I become an Admin from here, who knows? I will add that I might get logged out on my families computer, so I still might have some edits from the IP address._BLuE^DOgTn 04:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

So, go ahead and block the other accounts, which will prevent me from editing from them!_BLuE^DOgTn 04:35, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Check these

I am giving you the accounts that I have over 100 edits on and the other, I seldomly used if ever used those others go look! I am being honest here because I want to be an Admin one day in the future if someone would like to help me in that endeavor. I will welcome it! These numbers are as of a week ago, I think? Good Day...Today of course_BLuE^DOgTn 03:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• 1,854 TennisAuthority
• 966 GolfAuthority
• 2,030 Bluedogtn
• 122 BasketballAuthority
• 1,717 TW-RF
• 116 TN-IS
• IP98 500+500+500+500+100aprox
• IP69 400aprox
  • Are these all the accounts, or just the ones you have 100+ edits on. We need all of the accounts, and a promise to limit yourself to a single account. Ironholds (talk) 09:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey you wanted them all! By the way, I promise to use this account in the signature!_BLuE^DOgTn 23:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• FilmAuthority 10
• HorseRacingAuthority 9
• NASCARAuthority 9
• FootballAuthority 9
• BaseballAuthority 8
• HockeyAuthority 4
• USAAuthority 51
• SportAuthority 9
• MusicalAuthority 9
• TheatreAuthority 13
• PoliticalAuthority 6
• ReligionAuthorty 10
• DanceAuthority 30
• LegalAuthority 5
• BlueDogTENN 5
• FilmExpert 9
• GolfExpert 3
• HorseRacingExpert 4
• USAExpert 9
  • • There is a big list of them down the right-hand side of User talk:Bluedogtn, which was started six months ago and which — as noted right at the start of this discussion — xe has been maintaining in accordance with a suggestion to do so. Uncle G (talk) 12:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thekohser, Shoemaker's Holiday, and Wikivoices—incivility and edit warring

Further information: [[:Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive566#Asking for audio is harassment campaign?|Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive566 § Asking for audio is harassment campaign?]]

Involved users

• Thekohser (talk · message · contribs · page moves · edit summaries · count · api · logs · block log · email)
• Shoemaker's Holiday (talk · message · contribs · page moves · edit summaries · count · api · logs · block log · email)

Involved pages

• Wikipedia:Wikivoices (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Diffs

• Edits by User:Thekohser on Wikipedia:Wikivoices: Numerous edits, many with sarcastic or offensive edit summaries, including altering the time of a Skype chat; more edits, including removal of header
• Revert by User:Shoemaker's Holiday: Revert of previous 4 edits by Thekohser
• Revert of revert by Thekohser: Revert of Shoemaker's Holiday's revert of his edits

Policies/guidelines

• WP:CIVIL
• WP:HARASS
• WP:EW (getting close, but not quite at that point yet)

(Feel free to add to, edit, and amend the above—it is for reference, and should not be considered part of my post)

For the sake of disclosure, I am involved with Wikivoices, and have had prior interactions with User:Shoemaker's Holiday, but have had no involvement with this issue or with User:Thekohser.

From what I understand of this issue, Thekohser was refused access to the Wikivoices Skypechat (I have been told this has something to do with harassment of Shoemakers Holiday—the extent of this issue, I do not know). He is not the first, and a number of users have been deied access previously. He then began to edit the Wikivoices project page, including removing the page header and editing the scheduled time of the next recording, often with sarcastic and offensive edit summaries. Seeing this as vandalism, Shoemaker's Holiday reverted these edits. Thekohser reverted again.

There has been some discussion of this on the talk page, but this seems to be more complex than a simple edit war, so I am bringing it here with the hope of resolving the issue through community consensus. I am not here lobbying for sanctions on either user, unless the community deems that necessary. Dendodge _T\^C 22:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Thekohser has been engaging in other strange behavior including copying a page here from his website and proxying for a banned user to post the page diff. Triplestop x3 23:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Triplestop, that really isn't part of this incident, and will really only serve to distract from the main issue at hand. The issue you brought up has been dealt with already on this very noticeboard. NW (Talk) 23:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

It is on the edge of an edit war, but I see no evidence that The Kohser will continue the fight. Viridae^Talk 23:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Nor do I, but there appears to be something deeper and more complex going on here. Dendodge _T\^C 23:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this behavior appears to be part of a general pattern of problematic behavior by this user. He was unbanned by ArbCom under condition that he would toe a very narrow line. After he crossed that line he was blocked again and given a final chance (I'm not sure how many final chances he has had at this point). Would it maybe make sense to bring this back to the ArbCom? (Disclaimer: I've recently been paid a small sum of money by TheKohser for winning a contest). JoshuaZ (talk) 00:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

This appears to be an element of a feud with Shoemaker's Holiday over the disposition of a sound file. If so, then it may conflict with an editing restriction:

• "Civility restriction: You may not engage – in either an initiatory or retaliatory capacity – in any form of feuding, quarreling or personal attack." User talk:Thekohser#ArbCom: Suspension of your community ban

If Thekohser keeps pursuing this then WP:AE would be an appropriate venue.   Will Beback  talk  00:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

This matter arose on ANI a few days ago. Both parties were told - in no uncertain terms - to DROP IT. This is not a Wikipedia related dispute and has no place on Wiki. Manning (talk) 00:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I have nothing against Shoemaker's Holiday at this time, other than his refusal to cooperate with Sage Ross or with Samuel Klein to take 2 minutes to e-mail either or both of them an audio file (which I haven't bugged him about at all since the AN/I decision), and other than his indicating the wrong time-zone-adjusted times for today's Skype meeting, and other than his changing the subject of the Skype meeting with only 4 hours to go, and other than his not indicating all week that I would be denied entry into the Skype meeting even if I could have found it despite asking days ago how to find it, and other than him restoring incorrect information and dead links to the Wikivoices page after I asked that they be updated and corrected before being restored. If that sounds like *I* am causing a feud, then maybe I should be blocked. Otherwise, I could always get back to writing new articles for Wikipedia. -- Thekohser 01:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The sound file in question apparently concerns the Wikimedia Foundation, with whom Thekohser has a known conflict. If so, then this entire Wikivoice dispute may be an outgrowth of the Wikimedia dispute.   Will Beback  talk  02:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the sound file in question was a Board of Trustees candidates - Round table interview.[9] So, more than 10 people gave time to this roundtable - I could ask the other participants their opinion on this matter if it would help. 99.150.255.75 (talk) 04:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi 99.150.255.75, please don't bother the dozen or so people related to that interview. As blurpeace notes, they and the interview have nothing to do with today's edit war. +sj+ 07:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Will Beback has stated an opinion/theory that this is a personal matter and that "this entire Wikivoice dispute may be an outgrowth of the Wikimedia dispute." I am attempting to depersonalize the matter by getting the opinions of those who were present at the original WikiVoices round table, as the Editors mentioned in this dispute appear to be at an impasse - Can you please forward this to a better locale if this is not the place where this problem (if it is a problem) can be worked out? 99.150.255.75 (talk) 05:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

This comment is not helpful here. +sj+

This thread was started over an edit war that occured today. None of the people listed here participated in it. –blurpeace ^(talk) 05:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

There are a number of factors that are not present in this representation, particularly the nature of the dispute around the sound file. Accessibility is a foundation stone of Wikimedia Projects. Even if a member of our Community is challenging and problematic, exclusionism is unsound. Wikivoices should seek to be inclusive otherwise they are not a voice of our Community. If Shoemaker's Holiday is perpetuating misinformation to exclude Thekohser from taking part that is reprehensible.

B9 hummingbird hovering ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Allow me to summarize both of the disputes. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk · contribs) has stated that some candidates had expressed concern over release of the file, and they (i.e. Shoemaker) now feel that it's unnecessary to publish the recording as the elections have already passed. Thekohser (talk · contribs) then went on to harass Shoemaker about the file's release here. It was concluded by administrator Manning Bartlett (talk · contribs) et al. that the dispute was not concerned with Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation, and that it should be resolved off wiki.

Now, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with the previous one. This is over an edit war that had occured yesterday. The IP above is acting as a meatpuppet of Thekohsers, and they're attempting to extend a dispute that has already been resolved on wiki. Please, remain on topic. –blurpeace ^(talk) 06:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping the peace. +sj+ 07:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

When I read the text right, Mr Kohs is to behave in a prescribed way. This means that he is to behave when it comes to the Wikimedia Foundation and Wikipedia. I have read that some people want to narrow this down to "just on en.wp". When you look at his behaviour, he has been recently trolling on Meta by removing Jimmy Wales and Angela from the list of people who can present about Wikipedia. He has been trying to get Shoemaker's Holiday to present him with a sound file, a sound file that needs a lot of work before it is presentable, a job Shoemaker never volunteered for. The trolling around Shoemakeer has been ongoing in many places and Mr Kohs' vandalism of the Wikivoices page is not acceptable by itself and it is not acceptable in order to get his way in order to get this sound file.

As much as Mr Kohs, I have been interviewed at the time and I feel utterly uncomfortable when this sound file is going to be given to him and not to be made public. There is nothing really in the sound file but I do not want to see a troll fed. Given that nobody is volunteering for the work and given that the elections are months in the past, it would be a waste of time to pressure someone in cleaning up the file. From my perspective, it is best deleted if only to end this.

All in all, I am of the opinion that Mr Kohs has violated the terms under which he is allowed to work on Wikipedia and should now be permanently banned. AGF is not applicable in regard to this gentleman. Thanks, GerardM (talk)

I'm with Gerard. We attempted an unban. That hasn't really worked out. I think that we need to reban him and ensure that any return follows something like the 'standard offer'. Along those lines, the BASC should take note that unbanning folks who aren't likely to do anything but agitate is unwise. Protonk (talk) 08:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Can't say I disagree; Kohs does seem to have violated his terms of returning to wikipedia, which appear to have been quite strict. A ban would appear to be the next step. Skinny87 (talk) 08:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• I have reviewed this and other similar behaviours. It's very late here (or perhaps more accurately, terribly early) and I will look at this again after a bit of shut-eye; however, if one of my colleagues has not taken steps when I awake, I will be proceeding to address this in the manner prescribed by Thekohser's unblock conditions. I should note, as an aside, that though I understand the frustration felt by Shoemaker's Holiday, he needs to remember that edit-warring isn't something he should be doing either; I would like to think that, had he asked at this board or otherwise contacted an available administrator, the goings on at that page could have been addressed without having to increase his own frustration level. Risker (talk) 08:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • The direction this discussion would otherwise go in is quite clear, so I too hope that this is resolved soon. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Kohs is somebody I've generally been on a more-or-less friendly basis with, and I think some of the past treatment of him was unfair and he often has a valid point, but he's rather hard to defend this time; even with a few valid points in there, he has a strong tendency to press them in ways that push people's buttons the wrong way, and he's supposed to be on special warning not to do that sort of thing upon his unban. I can understand the frustration about podcast episodes going into limbo and not being released (I feel it too; I maintain the RSS feed for that podcast, and would like to have a complete archive, but there are now several "lost episodes" missing from the sequence, making me feel like Frasier did in the episode of his sitcom where one of the tapes in his complete collection of his own radio show got lost), but throwing around words like "treachery" and "morally bankrupt" is way over the top (and certainly not Assuming Good Faith). His changing the times of yesterday's recording was done allegedly to correct errors in the time zone conversions as originally posted, but I see no evidence of there being any error until he "fixed" it by effectively delaying the show two hours (which actually worked out OK for me; I was out for a walk at the time the show was originally scheduled, but ended up participating in it when it actually started and I was at home). The fact is, though, that this podcast is an unofficial project, and it's highly unfortunate that it is now stirring up drama among WP admins when it is in fact completely independent of anything official in Wikipedia/Wikimedia. *Dan T.* (talk) 13:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Risker above says that I edit warred, but I believe this is false: I attempted to correct Kohs' changing of the times to an inaccurate time (once), and reverted his vandalising of the page once, but I stopped completely when Kohs reverted back, giving up on it, which is probably less than I should've done, given this information was vital to keeping the episode and participants organised. Does this amount to edit-warring? Shoemaker's Holiday ^{Over 208 FCs served} 14:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Timeline

There's a bit of confusion here, so let me give a quick timeline:

11:47, 24 September 2009 (UTC): Kohs opens a thread here on ANI attacking me for failing to release episode 45.[10] (see this link for the next couple bits)

14:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC) Kohs, in response to Manning, suggests ways I could be punished:

“ [...]Here are some ways to compel cooperation:

• Deny Shoemaker participation in the Wikivoices program until he transfers the file to any other willing volunteer.
• Publicly rebuke Shoemaker for hoarding free content, against the wishes of at least several of the participants whose voices were captured.

[...]

”

14:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC): Is warned (still in the ANI thread) by Manning to drop the harassment. Thread is closed.

15:15, 24 September 2009: Kohs signs himself up as participant in an episode of Wikivoices which I am hosting.

16:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC): Kohs reposts a gross personal attack from one of his emails on the Wikivoices talk page:

“

several people involved have made it clear that it should only be released by official means, not privately. I'm afraid that's the end of this discussion, as I cannot go against the wishes of the other people involved in it to please you.

To which, I did respond that Shoemaker's Holiday was a morally bankrupt cog in the big Wiki machine of unaccountable treachery. That was as "harassing" as my tone ever got with Shoemaker's Holiday. If an apology is needed to release the audio file from Episode 45, I will be happy to provide a public or private apology to him, whichever he prefers. But, at this point, I suspect no amount of apologizing, groveling, or kissing the ring of Shoemaker's Holiday will bring him down off the very pointy ledge he's decided to park himself upon. -- Thekohser 16:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

”

13:53, 26 September 2009: Kohs reconfirms I am "morally bankrupt"

20:09, 26 September 2009 Kohs changes the session's time. (I subsequently try and fix this, but a minor bug in Wikipedia causes me to accidentally revert myself.

It was somewhere around this point that Kohs is told he is not welcome in the chat, as he must have fully known.

21:09-21:31, 26 September 2009: Kohs vandalises Wikivoices

22:03, 26 September 2009: I revert

22:11, 26 Septeber 2009: Kohs reverts

By this time, I gave up, and have not edited on this matter again until this morning. I trust this puts the situation in a new light? Shoemaker's Holiday ^{Over 208 FCs served} 10:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikibreak

Thekohser will be taking a one-month Wikibreak, to allow time for uninvolved parties (folks other than GerardM who deliberately stirs the pot, and other than Shoemaker's Holiday who continually re-frames evidence to portray himself as some sort of helpless victim) to examine my article contributions to the encyclopedia project, and to investigate how taunting and agitation tactics have been deliberately deployed by others to irritate me. -- Thekohser 13:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The wikibreak is a good idea, but sniping at people in the course of announcing it is not so great an idea. Some self-awareness on your part of your own role in the dramas you've been involved in, where your own actions contributed to the problems independently of anything anybody else may have done, would also be a good idea if you could manage it. (And I'm saying this as a friend, somebody who often sympathizes with you and doesn't want to see you banned again, but who is having great difficulty defending you in the current fight.) *Dan T.* (talk) 13:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

If deliberately stirring the pot means that I am looking for a specific outcome, then indeed. Mr Kohs has proven himself sufficiently. He has been agitating in his way on Meta, now on en.wp where he only may operate for as long as his behaviour is clean. His actions prove that he cannot abide by the restrictions put on him and consequently he should be banned. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 17:40, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Status of audio file

The answer to my question is probably buried in this discussion somewhere, but I must have glossed over it - has the file at the heart if this dispute been released to someone willing to complete the editing? I admit that I don't understand the importance of these interviews, especially after the election, or why the file needs to be edited prior to release, but it seems that simply making this file available will go a long way to diffusing one part of this dispute. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Long story short, the first time anyone but Kohs contacted me about wanting to edit it was an hour ago. Kohs' emails to me are auto-junked, I don't know if there were other people he mentioned. In addition, with one exception just after the election (when I still had the headache that made it impossible to try and figure out which file it was), the first request outside of Kohs was yesterday.

Thanks to the headaches, I've never actually listened to the file. Shoemaker's Holiday ^{Over 208 FCs served} 16:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Shoe-I'd suggest that the sound file be turned over to someone you trust, to complete tasks. If not, it will only harm WikiVoices. The person should not be Kohs, who has a known conflict here and with the Foundation, and just got rebanned by Risker. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It will be as soon as I can dig it out - Call Graph saves recordings by a date and time, so some digging around will be required. Shoemaker's Holiday ^{Over 208 FCs served} 19:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about your headaches, Shoemaker's Holiday. Without meaning to put any more pressure on you, have you managed to locate and upload the file? I must admit that I'm now curious to know what all the fuss is about. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thekohser blocked

After reviewing again the issues raised in this and other recent noticeboard reports, I have revoked Thekohser's provisional unblocking, effective immediately.[11] Risker (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Thekohser has done some strange things however that might be a bit harsh, but this block is needed to deter this pattern he is on right now. Thekohser needs to focus more on making useful contribs rather than messing around and going off on a Wikibreak whenever the heat is on. Triplestop x3 17:57, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

He can make very useful contributions when he puts his mind to it; the problem is that he then wants to use those contributions as bargaining chips in the games he spends a good chunk of his activity playing instead of doing the useful contributions. *Dan T.* (talk) 18:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

So essentially, he is gaming the system. Triplestop x3 19:15, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Basically. And while it behooves us to sometimes turn the other cheek, we really only ought to do so once. Protonk (talk) 21:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

<outdent: Can't argue with that. It seems to me that attempting to use perceived weaknesses in our processes and turn them against us seems unduly disruptive. His recent support of User:PeterDamian's recent further futile attempt to upset the apple-cart is yet another example. I am reminded of Paul Dirac's opinion that "When it's you against the world, bet on the world". Enough is enough. Rodhullandemu 00:04, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth: I endorse this block. I lost patience with Kohs after he called me a "witless boob", and other users in unflattering terms for opposing the WP:OPTOUT proposal. That trouble has periodically persisted after the unblock simply does not surprise me. Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Evosoho

DGG suggested bringing this issue to ANI and I agree with it.

Here are the problems put together by Ikip about Evosoho:

Camponotus saundersi

nominated Camponotus saundersi for deletion. 13:51, 26 September 2009.[12]

Deleted: Workers are 4 to 6 mm long.<ref name=emery1889>Emery 1889: 516</ref> 14:59, 26 September 2009[13]

Deleted: ==Footnotes== {{reflist}} 14:59, 26 September 2009.[14]

Deleted almost all of the text of the article, no reason given, tagged as "minor": "Its defensive behaviours include self-destruction by autothysis. Two oversized, poison-filled mandibular glands run the entire length of the ant's body. When combat takes a turn for the worse, the ant violently contracts its abdominal muscles to rupture its body and spray poison in all directions." 19:51, 26 September 2009.[15]

Deleted reference section, reason given "correcting": "* {{aut|Emery, Carlo}} (1889): Viaggio di Leonardo Fea in Birmania e regioni vicine. XX. Formiche di Birmania e del Tenasserim raccolte da Leonardo Fea (1885-87). ''Annali del Museo Civico di Storia Naturale Giacomo Doria (Genova)'' 2 '''7'''(27): 485-520. [ PDF]" 19:55, 26 September 2009 [16]

Dream Focus reverts Evosoho's deletions. 20:10, 26 September 2009.[17]

Evosoho removes rescue template, reason given "canvassing" 20:12, 26 September 2009 [18]

Evosoho reverts Dream Focus restoration of material, reason given: "no vandilizm dream focus was vandalizng" 20:13, 26 September 2009.[19]

Template:Exploding_animals

Evosoho deletes nine of the eleven entries from the template. 20:38, 26 September 2009 [20]

Irbisgreif puts the article up for WP:TFD, Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Exploding animals 20:52, 26 September 2009.[21]

Evosoho deletes the last two entries from the template. 21:00, 26 September 2009[22]

Exploding animals

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Exploding donkey result: merge. 9:44, 24 September 2009

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Exploding sheep result: keep, Nomination withdrawn with intent to merge, 19:44, 24 September 2009

Evasoho merges Exploding donkey into Exploding animals. 20:08, 24 September 2009 [23]

Evasoho merges Exploding rat into Exploding animals. 21:15, 24 September 2009.[24]

Evasoho merges Exploding toads into Exploding animals. 14:39, 26 September 2009[25]

Evasoho puts the article Exploding animals up for deletion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Exploding animal (3rd nomination) [26]

Problems with him tagging articles for deletion goes back futher. Joe Chill (talk) 23:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

1. Perhaps not very relevant, but why the mish-mash between plural and singular for the titles? (Rats, toads, and donkey?) NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 22:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments

1. Calling them vandalism and the removing rescue tags is disruptive to efforts of Wikipedians trying to improve the project. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
2. Deconstructing an article without discussion, in order to make the article weaker when when being discussed at AfD might also be itself seen as disruptive vandalism of other's efforts to improve the project. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
3. And a question: This diff shows that Evosoho takes credit for nominating an article for deletion, while the deletion page diff it lists the nominator as "3^0$0%0". Is this an eror, or is it an attempt to make it appear someone else did the nominating? If the former, it should be corrected. If the latter, it is a bad precedent, as it makes it appear as if someone else did the nomming. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
4. Further, the deconstruction of multiple articles without discussion, then merging the results into a seperate article without discussion, and then nominating that article for deletion seems to be an attempt to thwart the processes set in place in the project, and again seems disruptive of other's efforts to improve the encyclopedia. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

With respect to point 3, this revision shows that the bizarre signature was there at creation, but that the user / talk / contributions links do indeed go to Evosoho. The text appears to be leet. ^Bongo_matic 00:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Struck the question, and thank you for the answer. Still though, and accepting that both sigs belong to the same person, the use of differing sigs within seconds of each other at different places might still be seen as confusing if one does not decide to follow the trail... as if I were to sign this User:XYZ123321ZYX (talk), rather than as MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 01:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Unstruck after further research. This instance of using multiple sigs with one account within seconds of each edit is not consistent with policy at WP:Username. While technically not a seperate account and so not a sock, and not a single purpose only account so not a SPA, the use of this technique could be seen as improper in that it is misleading and could easily lead to an inference of false consensus for an action, and THAT violates WP:Username. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 01:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

These actions were clearly inappropriate. Editing an article in order to weaken it & then sending it to deletion is very underhanded. I suggest a strongly worded warning not to do this again. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It appears that most of the "editing an article in order to weaken it" occurred after, not before, the article was sent to AfD, but I concur that the article is an obvious keeper, Since the AfD has been (non-admin) closed as a speedy keep, perhaps this thread could be marked as resolved. Deor (talk) 01:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

You are correct about the timing, although it doesn't really change anything. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

After further examination, there seems to be a deeper problem here. Evosoho appears to have a history of excessively bold, unilateral moves. In the last couple days he has moved GNOME to Gnome (desktop environment), moved Wubi to Wubi (disambiguation), userified several A7 article attempts without notifying the editor who made them, requested a major AfD template unprotect so he could unilaterally rename it, and more. He also put an article up for AfD with no edit summary and marked the edit as minor and made numerous clearly wrong RfD nominations.

Someone needs to have a serious talk with him as he seems to think his opinion on any given matter is all that counts. If he refuses to stop, he'll have to be blocked as the majority of his edits are (unintentionally) disruptive. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• This War on Explosions isn't as unilateral as it is being painted here. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Exploding tree for several other editors who think that some of our "exploding X" articles are highly contrived just for the sake of having such an article. Evosoho's edits to the navigation template and mergers of articles are not as idiosyncratic as they are being painted here.

  Of course, that also leads to problematic edits such as Evosoho tagging an article as a hoax simply because it discussess a hoax. ☺ (I've held back my discovery that the NPR hoax isn't actually wholly a hoax, which will probably be to NPR's surprise, in the hope that someone else looking for sources would have found the sources that I did. It seems that no-one has, yet.)

  And then there are things such as moving user boxes out of user space, as as Evosoho did with Template:User OS:Windows — which used to be at User:Google box (MfD discussion) (current RFD discussion) … Uncle G (talk) 03:57, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

  • I agree that there's good reason to give all of the exploding animals a hard look—many of them are loaded with WP:SYN and thinly justified. That said, I also agree with the close of that AFD; namely, that merge results imply that the new amalgam should be kept. I assume the user simply doesn't understand the constraints of consensus. Cool Hand Luke 15:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• I would really like to think this as a somewhat confused editor trying to consolidate and improve articles, without realising the consensus is needed for major changes, and that it helps to be direct in what you are doing and make things clear when there are problems. The sig also, which I find as annoying as all symbolic sigs, may not be a desire to be troublesome, just a failure to realise that when several people tell you something you are doing is wrong, you should consider the possibility that it might be., I don't really think of this editor as malign, just as reckless and determined not to pay attention to communication. I agree with Thaddeus in this--he is not intentionally trying to disrupt--but we nonetheless do have to deal with the disruption. Perhaps a short block will make it clear that we are taking this seriously. Many initially troublesome editors have understood after that and done much better--and as for the ones who still don't, we then know that we must follow through on the necessary steps. DGG ( talk ) 05:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• • Uncle G, DGG, MQS and Thaddeus B all make good points; I'm not surprised to see this brought to AN/I. The general pattern of editing here is disruptive. The signature is confusing and misleading. The pattern of moves, redirects and redirects for deletion is far too bold, especially asking for a major template to be renamed without any discussion beforehand. Whatever the faults of the Exploding organism series of articles, which I agree are many, agreeing to merge content and then proposing the merge target for deletion is underhand. Evosoho also seems unwilling to discuss editors' concerns with them. If they continue editing in this fashion, a block would seem to be wise. Fences&Windows 12:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I attempted to open an RFC/Username for Evosoho's signature. It was rejected on the grounds that it's not a username issue (which I think is an overly strict interpretation of the scope of the venue, but anyway). Evosoho has been asked by many editors now to change his signature, and he refuses to address the issue. I agree that there is a somewhat disruptive feel to his edits as well. Gigs (talk) 17:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• I have taken a critical look at what at my edits have been. There is merit to what has been written as to the need for consensus for major changes, and I agree and will adhere to this approach. It does, however, become a question of what constitutes a “major change.” My being too bold was a result of me being shy of talk pages.

It is important to note that there may be discourtesy in other remarks (Wikipedia:No personal attacks - Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks do not help make a point; they only hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia.) My intentions are to improve Wikipedia – I am not “underhanded” in any way. My signature was not offensive, it was simply my own, and should not have been a concern for serious editors. It was my own dialect of leetspeak. Notwithstanding, to please its/my detractor's I have changed it to “evo.” I had considered changing my signature. I just had not told you that.

As to the reasons for some of the changes that I have made that have been discussed above.

Gnome move: Why I moved GNOME to Gnome (desktop environment). In the event that you were looking for the mythical creature “Gnome” but typed all caps, you would get “GNOME (pronounced /ɡəˈnoʊm/)[1] is a desktop environment—a graphical user interface which runs on top of a computer operating system —composed entirely of free and open source software. It is an international project that includes creating software development frameworks, selecting application software for the desktop, and working on the programs which manage application launching, file handling, and window and task management.”. In this case, the mythical creature “Gnome” is (I believe) more notable, and the technical result might turn you away from Wikipedia.

Wubi move: Why I did the move to Wubi (disambiguation) was for the reason that “Wubi the Ubuntu installer” is by far the primary as compared to the “Wubi method” topic as illustrated by Google results -- 25 million to 3 million.

The Exploding animal AfD was my thinking that the merges have brought irrevocable Original Research.

--evo talk contribs 01:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

"My being too bold was a result of me being shy of talk pages." This hits the nail on the head. Discuss your edits more and consider your actions more carefully. Proposing an article for deletion immediately after agreeing with merging material to it is bizarre, and while I accept that this was not deliberately underhand your judgment was still faulty. A strange signature is not a hanging offense, but it is an issue if it leads to confusion. Fences&Windows 19:03, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Block needed: compromised/shared account

• Red Thunder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Guitarherochristopher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) appears to have control of this account. Based on userpages, there's no way they were originally the same person. In addition, he claims to be using the Red Thunder account as a bot. I have had no headway trying to explain to him how Wikipedia works and what it's for. Perhaps someone with greater patience can try. → ROUX ₪ 23:47, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I hope you did better research than you did with this one. 98.248.33.198 (talk) 01:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Red Thunder has no edits since March. You would need a steward to run a checkuser on other projects where he may be active. Thatcher 02:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, but User:Guitarherochristopher claims he has access to the account and is (will be?) using it as a bot. This is a problem on two fronts. → ROUX ₪ 04:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Until Red Thunder has current edits, there are no local checkuser findings. Since Red Thunder is a unified global account, a steward can get his IPs from another project and either look to see if there is evidence of compromise, or save them for when Red Thunder starts editing again. It may in fact just be trolling by GHC. Thatcher 07:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• I suspect it is just trolling. In other news, if you attempt to roll back edits which leave no net change on the page content, a message pops up as if the rollback was successful, but nothing actually happens. huh. I would leave a note on GHC's talk page asking about this but it would appear that such a measure would be an exercise in futility. Protonk (talk) 08:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • The user has confirmed here that he has access to the account; I am waiting for proof. → ROUX ₪ 18:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• It occurs to me that GHC may also be User:Coldplay Expert. Crafty (talk) 20:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I'll bite. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Guitarherochristopher filed. Protonk (talk) 21:34, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not guitarherochristopher, I can assure you of that fact. (Or vice versa)--Coldplay Expert 23:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• I think his dad wants a word with you. :) [27] Crafty (talk) 23:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • How odd. This is the second father with an autistic son misusing Wikipedia I've seen. Hm. In any case, could an admin please contact the father and explain the problems? It will be more effective coming from someone who can say (in some sense) that they can speak for Wikipedia. → ROUX ₪ 23:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Y'know Roux, I don't think it's GHC dad. Admittedly I was wrong about the sockpuppet thing, but I think I'm on stronger ground with this assertion. ;) Crafty (talk) 23:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
      • That would be the case with the other one I'm thinking about as well. In that case, it would seem (based on stuff found elsewhere online; this guy is somewhat notorious) that it's an older man with some weird obsessions. → ROUX ₪ 23:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
        • Weird obsessions you say? You don't have his number by any chance? :) Crafty (talk) 23:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
          • I know several of the usernames he tends to use. This case is weirdly similar, but in totally different subject areas. Odd. → ROUX ₪ 23:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Guitarherochristopher claims to be in 8th grade, let's consider his age when dealing with him. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I have been. Multiple people have attempted to engage him to no avail. And I find it... difficult to believe the comment is actually from the putative father; I just received one in my inbox (funny how he says he can't use Wikipedia but finds Special:Emailuser no problem) that... well let's just say there's no way it was written by an adult. → ROUX ₪ 23:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Separate problem

Guitarherochristopher keeps putting nonfree images on his userpage and elsewhere in his userspace. He's been warned about this at least twice--once by me, once on Sept 12. The cluelessness is becoming aggressive at this point. I don't have the patience to keep trying to educate here. Can someone else please jump in? → ROUX ₪ 03:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Over-zealous NPPer

Resolved

 – points taken, will patrol New pages with care.--User:fngosa Freshymail (Talk page ) the knowledge-defender 10:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems we may have an over-zealous NPPer. Fngosa (talk · contribs) is tagging a lot of articles with prod and speedy notices, a fair proportion of which either don't qualify as speedies or were tagged within seconds of the creation of articles which had {{under construction}} notices or added comments to the same effect from the article creators. When questioned about some of these taggings, (s)he has not exactly become uncivil, but has certainly used a tone which seems less than friendly - though this may be because of the vagaries of written English (I suspect that Fngosa may not use standard UK or US English. This doesn't really fit as a civility issue or as a deletion review issue, but I think some attention needs to be drawn to it since this is causing some issues with people who are writing genuine stubs. Any suggestions? Grutness...wha? 00:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• PS - the following diffs may prove informative: [28], [29], [30], [31], [32]. Grutness...wha? 00:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I reviewed his work, and he has an alarmingly high false-tagging rate. The two biggest problems are 1) He seems to have invented his own speedy deletion criteria, and is not following accepted practices in tagging articles, and most importantly b) his refusal to discuss his tagging in a civil manner. He seems to have invented some convoluted "if you have a problem, you must respond in this manner" system, and refuses to acknowledge people who wish to discuss his taggings, unless the "file an official complaint" using his weird format. This certainly has got to stop. I would counsel him to stop tagging any speedy deletions unless he can improve his understanding of the speedy deletion criteria AND unless he is willing to make a clear account of his actions for anyone that raises reasonable questions, neither of which he seems to be doing right now. --Jayron32 00:53, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
    • P.S. Since the OP did not notify him of this thread, I did so. In the future, please notify people when they are being discussed at ANI. --Jayron32 00:53, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Oops -apologies. I thought I'd done so. Grutness...wha? 01:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
      • I concur with Jayron32's conclusions, the question I have is what we do about it? Is a short tap with the cluestick to "abusive"? Perhaps if the block notice also contained a link to WP:Consensus? Unless the editor decides to conform to WP practice and policy it might be argued that they are disruptive, regardless of the good faith intentions.

        I am shortly to bed, otherwise I would perform a block - but I think the sanctioning admin needs to be avialable to unblock as soon as meaningful communications are established. LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

        • I think that "overzealous" may be too kind. The editor, when cautioned about erring says "Hi mate, some articles are given wrong speed deletion tags for convenient. It is not a big deal, at the end of the day, what ever tag i give it, it will still be deleted." added emphasis mine- Sinneed 01:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC) - emphasis - Sinneed 01:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Wield thy trusty admin swords, O wiki-knights of the round-and-round-we-go table. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Blocking may be premature at this minute. He's been notified of this thread, and several editors commenting here have recommended that he stop speedy tagging. Until he starts up again, we should not block him. If he DOES start up again, with the same problems, then a block may be forthcoming. Lets give him a chance to read and respond to this thread. --Jayron32 01:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• I think that "This article is too abstract to be an encyclopedic article" at Talk:Plumber's Mait is particularly bizarre. I've left some Clue of the subtle variety. But this might prove to be too subtle. Uncle G (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)Just chiming in to say that I find communicating with him very frustrating. His misuse of {{db-g6}} is particularly problematic. And of course, when I pointed this out to him, all he does is pointing me to his weird convoluted process. He seems to think that he's got some sort of authority as a NPPer, which certainly isn't true. I'll also add in this diff. What kind of competent NPPer would tag that as a G11? And when I pointed it out to him, his response: [33]. I was thinking about filing an AN/I report myself. Tim Song (talk) 01:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • User:Uncle G/Wikipedia triage#Checking for the possibility of speedy deletion exists to be pointed to. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 01:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• A fair percentage of Fngosa's edits and vandal warnings are also problematic. He's acting as a self-proclaimed caped crusader, but is far too zealous and doesn't take constructive criticism well. A lot of the speedies are added less than 60 seconds after page creation or recent change. This will give WP a bad name.

  An IP editor added "in a time loop" after the word "stuck" in an article about a film. This was reverted by Fngosa as vandalism. A quick and simple google on the film title + "time loop" showed that the IP editor was right and this was done in good faith. See diff.

  And this which I think was done in good faith was reverted as vandalism and the editor received an immediate blatant vandalism warning. Many of his warning templates have unprofessional and idiosyncratic comments added to them. He needs to play by WP policy and guidelines, not by his own strange system which seems designed to provide a rationale for his own strange way of working.

  In addition, see Talk archive where Fngosa quickly manually shifts problematic comments and warnings.

  Fngosa also needs to check the effect of his edits after he's made them, for example adding a category without noticing that the number of brackets or braces are mismatched, or that the thing is redlinked, or an inappropriate category, or that a note on the category page says don't add directly to this category. On the Plumber's Mait talk page, he says that the title is also wrong and that the article needs moving, but a quick click on the external link shows that the spelling is actually right. In other words, he needs to do some research when making edits, tagging and reverting.

  Lastly, Fngosa says on his pages and in a userbox that he's been editing on WP since 2006. The edit counter here says 30 Aug 2008 as 'Fngosa'. He has sometimes edited as Freshymail, though not since a botched name change.

  Esowteric+Talk 08:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

  • End of Esowteric's comment, to avoid further confusion over who said what.
• I do (well, did) a lot of Special:Newpages work. Would it be useful if I "mentored" Fngosa, assuming he agrees to it? Ironholds (talk) 10:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • If you are willing to do that, great, another problem is that the instructions on his userpage for anyone who wants to talk to him about his adding CSD tags are incoherent and will actively confuse any new editors who want to talk to him. --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:15, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Righto, I'll head off and give him an offer. Ironholds (talk) 11:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Over-zealous NPPer - response

response This is too much to defend myself. only negative points have been raised except one or two. It will be unwise to defend myself against these negative views, that will be a book. at the same time, i do not want to fight any of you guys, i love you all. we have a common goal, to defend and protect knowledge. You have all done very good work, even highlighting some weakness in my contribution to wiki is a good job. You all deserve to be congratulated. here is a solution, i am deciding, let me know if you agree.

• I will cease to list any page for speed deletion for a period of 14 days
• I will not spend so much time on Wikipedia for some time (will be doing some research work some where)
• I will edit my user page to remove any offending material or you do it for me.
• I will continue to defend and protect knowledge at a lesser level
• I will not answer to any criticism, but will appreciate any good advise in good faith.

Thank you guys' 13:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Ironholds has made you a generous offer that will allow you to gain experience under expert tutelage. What will you learn from 14 days' abstinence? Just a thought. Good luck! Esowteric+Talk 13:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I decline his offer. that's kind of him. any other alternative solution. Freshymail (Talk page ) the knowledge-defender 14:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• Ironholds Esowteric's comment left me concerned, so I digged a bit deeper - here he readded a prod after an IP removed it; this is a ridiculous prod reason; this revert of "vandalism" that (!) added a reference. I'm not sure we can trust him with rollback, at the very least. Tim Song (talk) 15:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Please, review the reason which was given. there was room for an admin to remove the AFD or another editor, apart from IPs deemed to be used for vandalism. remember, Wikipedia is not a marketing website. Wikipedia articles normally come up first on google search. It will be wrong to direct a knowledge searcher to the website offering the software for sale. I am yet to believe that the article in question was self published. I shall not make this a big deal, I am not here to discuss an individual article. feel free to discuss it on my talk page. thank you for your comments though. they are helpful. Freshymail (Talk page ) the knowledge-defender 15:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• (outside editor) If Ironholds is happy to, he should follow all of his contributions and help him out and revert him whether he likes it or not. The alternative outcome is fngosa will continue bad and questionable edits without learning much and end up being blocked, which nobody wants.--Otterathome (talk) 15:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • This sounds ok, but it should be some one else, not Ironholds. 15:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I am offline now, till 11pm. please put down solution/advice below ONLY. Thank you Freshymail (Talk page ) the knowledge-defender 15:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• How will 14 days not adding tags help? You'll be back in 14 days with exactly the same problems. It's a perfectly acceptable response if coupled with a) reading the WP:PROD and WP:CSD pages, so as to know what is appropriate and what is not and b) trying not to make the same mistakes in future. Otherwise it's pointless. Ironholds (talk) 16:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Agreed. And given his apparent inability to distinguish between what is vandalism and what is not, I find his access to Huggle unsettling. Tim Song (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me from Fngosa's comments that he doesn't understand or doesn't want to accept that what he's doing is wrong. Fngosa, you should follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines and not just what you think is right, and especially not when several others have warned you that what you're doing is wrong. Anyway, let me make the situation clear for you. Your best option is to get the assistance of an experienced editor to help you along like Ironholds suggested. When that "mentor" is satisfied with your experience and knowledge, you can continue on your own. Just staying away from CSD tagging for 14 days and returning with the same kind of editing is not an option. Otherwise you can learn the guidelines yourself and follow them. However, your edits will have to be monitored for some time (it'll be pretty much the same as the first method I mentioned, except without a formal mentor assisting you) and if you are still doing it wrong they will have to be reverted whether you like it or not, as Otterathome said. If you make the same errors then, or you simply continue to edit this way, you're likely to have some sort of editing restriction imposed on you. You can follow either method, or if you have an alternative we'd be glad to hear it. May I also ask why you are refusing Ironhold's offer? ≈ Chamal ^talk ¤ 18:43, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't ve to answer each and every question. 22:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't, no, but if you couple a failure to edit appropriately with a refusal to properly discuss your work or change your behaviour, then some form of topic ban or a full block is likely to follow. Editors are accountable to the community for their actions, and while one does not have to answer unreasonable questions, being asked to explain why you've inappropriately tagged dozens of pages, refused all requests to cease and desist and refised all offers of assistance is anything but an unreasonable question. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

So, Ironholds, stop bullying others. Freshymail (talk- The knowledge defender 23:40, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Ironholds is doing the opposite of bullying.- Sinneed 00:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Possibly of interest as part of the discussion. 2nd account.

• freshymail (talk · contribs · logs)
• fngosa (talk · contribs · logs)- Sinneed 01:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • A small issue, since he has not attempted to conceal these two accounts as being different. Running multiple accounts with full disclosure is usually kosher. --Jayron32 01:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Fngosa/Freshymail, now you're being deliberately unhelpful. Learning the policies and guidelines and following them is not optional, it's a must. As I said before, "going your way" will not be accepted. If you are unwilling to learn and keep continuing like this, you will get some sort of editing restriction imposed on you, possibly even a block. ≈ Chamal ^talk ¤ 03:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Advocacy: Fngosa, I can see that you are feeling daunted by this process and I can understand that. Do you feel upto representing and defending yourself here, or are you in need of an advocate, counsellor or other representative to share your thoughts with and to assist you in avoiding sanctions and obtaining a happy outcome? Is there such a thing in Wikipedia? If not, please disregard this comment. With good wishes to you, Esowteric+Talk 08:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Apologies for using two accounts to comment on this thread. I intend to make Fresmail my main account. On the issue of receiving help from another editor, I will choose some one to show me bits at a time of my choice. I am still learning. As such, I am prone to error. some idiot pointed out that my use of huggle is unsettling! That is rubbish. It is pure attack on an individual which should not be happening on wikipedia. I don't use huggle for vandalism. show me one please! This is a community for every one to use in harmony. I just happen to have different charges to user:Grutness who started this silly thing. He pointed out some wrongs in my edits at my talk page, i responded positively. I can't understand why he brought up this issue here! This issue can well be resolved by Grutness fully participation. May i ask him to leave a message on my talk page and take it from there. If any one is unhappy with any of my edits, i challenge you to challenge me on my talk page. I am sorry, this seem to be becoming a general discussion with poor little solution or advise put down. I can not continue answering each and every question here. please, challenge me on my talk page. Thank you. User_talk:fngosa, 09:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Fngosa, with respect this sort of response is what they term in England "a bit of an own goal": it will hinder rather than help your prospects. It is not up to you to set the agenda or dictate terms here. With regard to challenging you on your talk page, see Talk archive which contains several examples of that process and goes some way to explaining why the serious (not silly) issue has been raised here. Esowteric+Talk 09:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This isn't a court of law: no lawyers allowed. Fgnosa simply seems to think that they get to set the rules, and only abide by them in certain cases. He was offered a high-quality mentor to help him through Wikipedia's policies. He (unbelievably) declined, saying he's follow his rules and all would be ok. If he's unwilling to accept a mentor, and is going to continue to push his own rule set and fails to recognize the disruption they cause, then there is only going to be one possible outcome ... 08:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I am no longer following my own rules on CSD. I am simply helping out with few articles i feel need a bit of editing. You should also recognize that i am contributing a lot on wikipedia, It is completely voluntary, and i am happy to do so. Should i completely stop patrolling new pages? let me know? I will still list attack pages for speed deletion. 09:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Last time I checked we were all volunteers. I think that you should a) learn Wikipedia's policies correctly b) proper;y edit a few thousand more articles, and then return to any form of NPP'ing - you will have a better idea of what is or what is not appropriate. Oh, and a mentor will go a long way right now. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you my friend. 09:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Note that BWilkins is suggesting exactly the sort of thing I proposed in terms of having a mentor. I'm still willing to mentor you, and have experience in (not to toot my own horn) most areas of WP in some shape or form. Ironholds (talk) 10:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

oh goosh! this is getting to my nerve now!. so, you Ironholds mentor me. promise that you wont be a bully, you know, I protect and defend women and children, so, any bullying of whatsoever wont be in my interest. thank you. 10:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

...okay. I wasn't intending to bully users. That's considered a "blockable offence", not a "mentorship" :P. Ironholds (talk) 10:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you know that forcing some one to accept something they ve refused is wrong? 10:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This need reining-in asap, imo. Esowteric+Talk 10:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

No one is forcing you to do anything, and Ironholds or anyone else has not bullied you. Since you have agreed to familiarize yourself with the policies and guidelines, I think we can end this here. You can always ask an experienced editor when in doubt (and I strongly recommend you do this) or ask at the help desk. Once again, keep in mind that you cannot continue in the manner you have been doing so far. ≈ Chamal ^talk ¤ 10:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

There's no "forcing" here. There is a hobson's choice, but one of your own making. You have a choice between following our rules and leaving. If you honestly don't want any kind of mentorship and think you can go this alone, fine, tell me, but if you end up at AN/I again because of errors similar to those you've promised not to repeat then people are unlikely to be sympathetic now you've refused assistance. Ironholds (talk) 10:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Said idiot believes that people who cannot tell what is vandalism and what is not should not have access to tools that allows them to revert edits at a high speed, for reverting a good edit as vandalism is one of the easiest ways to drive away a potential editor. Tim Song (talk) 14:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Whilst noting and respecting admin's proposition to close this issue, if you feel strongly about rollback and the setting up of Huggle yesterday, then here is the link to the granting.Esowteric+Talk 14:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I only responded because of his comment; we shall see if he can tell what is vandalism properly. Tim Song (talk) 14:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

What does he mean that he already had rollback because of his time on wikipedia?Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I think Fngosa means that as he has been using Wikipedia since 2006 that this entitles him to rollback, hence his application for rollback was a mere formality :) Esowteric+Talk 19:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Rollback has nothing to do with this issue. I assume that this case is now closed. I ve noted down all positive criticisms and will consider them all in my contribution. thank you. Freshymail (Talk page ) the knowledge-defender 22:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

new user trying to get some help

Resolved

 – Unblocked, username change processed. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello - first of all I hope I am not breaching etiquette by writing something here - I am just trying to get a little help / attention. I am a new user and I got blocked on my first day - not a good start. I tried doing the request an unblock for User:Canadian Imperial but it has already been two days and it doesn't seem to get noticed. the person who blocked my old account doesn't seem to be around today (or yesterday) to lift the block on my account (if he would even do it). as I said on my talk page i guess i was not thinking how my edits to the CIBC World Markets article would be viewed - but i really have not behaved badly at all let alone to deserve a block. i probably could have chosen a better user name than canadian imperial to make those edits but it seems like i was blocked for the wrong reasons. i probably have a conflict since i did work there a dozen years ago but i also have insight and thought the article was not very good. i was accused of including promotional material but actually if you read what i wrote it was all historical and really balanced – half of it was about the decline of cibc. i have tried editing wikipedia before without logging in and have never really had a problem but this time i wanted to create an account. it has not worked out as well as i had hoped. take a look at what i wrote and see if it is really that bad. i would like to try to give it another shot. i am still learning but i think i get the basic idea of what you are trying to do. i would like to get the block lifeted to change to another username and not have my normal computer blocked. Hope someone can help me. Thanks a lot.Retired Canadian (talk) 15:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:Block evasion is not looked upon kindly here. For anyone interested, the diff of his edits is here. Tim Song (talk) 15:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

A little AGF ... he filed his unblock request so that he could change his username. Nobody has looked at it so that he could change it. Perhaps not wise to register yet another name, but hardly block evasion because he was blocked for username violations. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

AGF doesn't apply to username "violations". We block editors (this one is lucky he didn't get an accidental hard block), then we ignore their unblock requests, then when they try another avenue we accuse them of block evasion. Except, obviously, most editors leave at the first block. UAA (etc) are lousy ways to keep editors. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 20:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd say as long as he puts a clear notice on his talk page that he formerly edited under the other name (and discloses on the talk page of the articles he edits that he formerly worked for a branch of CIB), nobody should come after him. I'm certainly willing to AGF. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The original block was autoblock enabled, account creation blocked - see his block log. For the record, I personally think it was excessive; but since the block has ACB on, it follows that creating another account is technically block evasion. Tim Song (talk) 23:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I am astonished at the line taken by a couple of the commentators above. Whatever may be the technicalities, we have an inexperienced editor who was editing in good faith and fell foul of the rules by accident. He has made sincere attempts to get his case reconsidered. He has been completely open, explaining the situation here, and made no attempt to hide the fact that he has made a second account. Whether or not his creating a new account was technically against any rules, he has not abused the account in any way, and there is no evidence that he has anything but good intentions. Under these circumstances I think some of the comments above are unduly harsh, to say the least. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Second this. I'm also yet to hear that WP:AGF somehow doesn't apply to an area of the wiki. If it was User:Earn$$$inursparetime then I can understand a block, since that username is enough that AGF, while still applying, gets rather overwritten. I hardly see how is previous username is one worthy of a username block, or the suspension of AGF. Can we not start from scratch? He didn't know the specifics and (very technically) violated some rules, presumably unintentionally. Getting rid of a well intentioned contributor because he wasn't able to grasp the ins and outs of our policies on the first day does not one iota of good for the project - arguably it's one of the reasons some mainstream commentators argue we're burning out. Ironholds (talk) 10:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

AGF should apply to all areas of the project. It should especially apply to areas dealing with usernames, because many of those users will be new. Now go look at how many people are blocked for usernames. Then look at how many of those get hard, not soft, blocks. UAA etc are harmful to the project. Many editors are chased away by over-enthusiastic templating, blocking, etc. As this report shows, even good faith contributors have to jump through multiple (obscure) hoops to get heard, all the while they've got people (who should know better) calling them spammers. See the report above where you offer mentorship to an editor who declines it? That editor would have been *gone*, hardblocked no account creation allowed, if they'd chosen a different username. People can argue about the benefits or otherwise of doing so, but there is a big inconsistancy there. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 12:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Ugh. My grasp of the English language is apparently slipping. I commented that way because I did not have time to read his contribs; having read that a while ago, I don't think it's spamming; no, I don't think we should do anything about this technical violation; and I think the hard block was excessive. In other words - I fully concur in the sentiments expressed above. Tim Song (talk) 14:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

After reading the contribs in question, I unblocked so he could change his account name, as requested.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Banned user Zingostar

A lifetime ago I dealt with Zingostar (block log) (formerly Matrix17 (block log)) and earlier today it was brought to my attention that this user has returned as User:Judo112. S/he appears to be engaging in similar activities that lead to the original ban (albeit less severely and less frequently), which includes creating biographies of people who are non-notable, or minors, or involved in ongoing criminal proceedings (or all three), sourced to tabloids or nowhere at all; sockpuppetry; recreating deleted content; and a handful of miscellaneous things like giving vandalism warnings to admins, AfD arguments that suggest unfamiliarity with WP:ATA, and so on.

I'm mostly retired from admin duties and can't approach this impartially enough anyway, so I leave it up to someone else to decide what, if anything, to do. – Steel 21:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Interestingly Judo112 has previously admitted to sockpuppetry after a report was filed in July. TheRetroGuy (talk) 22:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes I have admitted to that and would admit to any more so called sockpuppet cases. That doesnt at all follow the characteristics of that sockpuppet im now accused of being. Second of all, all my edits has been made in good faith and has been contributing to Wikipedia in a good way. This is the third time im being accused. Please let it be the last. I was acquitted of the second one since i wasnt at all related and this one is the same. Thanks all Wikipedians.--Judo112 (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Second of all Afd discussions are individual and that vandalism warning to an admin was a mistake of mine which i corrected. And i dont know about non-notable as all of the articles that I have created have had references and if any have been deleted it has been trough the proper way of Afd. So i cant really say that any of the accusations against me pointing towards me. I am actually a wikipedian who tries to stop vandalism for example. Thats my final word in this discussion. Cheers.--Judo112 (talk) 16:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Since this thread has received so little input I am going to take action myself and assume nobody has any problem with that. A few hours ago I hardblocked Zingostar's static home IP and, surprise surprise, Judo112 was caught up in the autoblock shortly after. This adds technical evidence to the wealth of behavioural evidence that was already present (I will post this on request if anyone seriously doubts the connection), but unfortunately s/he is still playing the innocent victim card even after being caught red-handed. Originally I was hoping we could go forward with some editing restriction for Judo (better the devil you know...) but I think this is precluded by their constant lies and refusal to admit any wrongdoing whatsoever. I have blocked them indefinitely. – Steel 23:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Global Consciousness Project: unsubstantiated claims, edit warring, POV pushing, OR and synthesis

There is severe POV pushing, edit warring, OR and synthesis from user:Simonm223 and User:Jan Arkesteijn by recursively adding irrelevant/unsourced/OR/synthesis statements into the article. user:Simonm223 was so emotional and in win-lose behaviour while editing that he needed to go out, to have some bike and steam off, as he mentioned here and here while searching for recruits on fringe theories noticeboard, which of course is a violation of WP:Noticeboards.

Timeline:

1- I challenged pseudoscience categorization several times, by first engaging in discussion and then by asking a reliable source from the editors claiming that the project is certainly pseudoscience: [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40],

2- While the "debate" continues, user:Simonm223 decides he became too much emotional and takes a break here, but in fact, as I mentioned above, he asks "help" from "like-minded" users by posting that emotional message to fringe theories noticeboard.

3- While the "debate" on pseudoscience issue continues, user:Simonm223 thinks that he/she presented sufficient valid arguments and before publishing his/her arguments/findings/conclusions through a reliable publisher (and referring to afterwards in wikipedia), he adds "pseudoscientific experiment" phrase to the article and justifies his edit by stating in edit summary that "as per discussion on talk page" here. I am sure, we can't find any other superior example over such disruptive contribution. I undo the damage done. user:Simonm223 insists on that his damage should stay. I undo the damage once again.

4- user:Simonm223 adds a material based on an article by physicist Stanley Jeffreys, which is in fact about the first group of experiments carried out by PEAR in 1982 here and here. There is no connection between PEAR and GCP, even if there were a connection, Jeffers' article can not still qualify to exist in GCP article because it is not about GCP. I object the addition of the material and present my argument here. Then I undo here and here

5- Without bothering to present any source, user:Simonm223 distorts the industrial "identification/naming" of the type of random number generators used in the project here. If any reliable source questions such thing, it should be mentioned either in hardware random number generator article or as a separate statement in GCP article. Removing "truly" is disruptive. I undo here.

6- User:Jan Arkesteijn removes "truly" and adds the material about Jeffreys' article once again here. Adds a bit more POV pushing here. I undo here and here.

7- user:Shoemaker's Holiday comes into the scene and removes "truly" and adds the material about Jeffreys' article one more time here. I revert here. user:Simonm223 intervenes once again here. I undo once again. user:Simonm223 reverts once again here and claims that the irrelevant material provide neutrality to the article. How can an irrelevant, clearly POV push be presented as warranting the neutrality? Removes "truly" one more time here.

8- I remove irrelevant material once again and bring "truly" back here and here.

9- User:Jan Arkesteijn removes "truly", adds the material about Jeffreys' article and adds "pseudoscience categorization" one more time here. I undo by presenting "evidence" on talk page here.

10- user:Simonm223 gives me 3RR warning here and warns some other collaborators here about edit warring as if he was not one of the edit warriors. He/she also "restores page to consensus version" here; what consensus he/she's talking about is another mystery.

11- I give "original research, including unpublished syntheses of sourced material" warning to user:Simonm223 here.

12- Some other strange ideas from other users arrive with some accompanying accusations and wikilawyering here, here and here.

I believe above collection of misconducts, edit warring, inappropriate behaviours such as adding OR and synthesis by especially user:Simonm223 and User:Jan Arkesteijn should properly be balanced with correct measures like topic ban, block or any other sanction that I'm not aware of right now. Logos5557 (talk) 00:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Logos5557 believes that aliens created the Egyptian pyramids, along with the "face" and a pyramid on Mars. He also believes NASA is covering up evidence of UFOs. Clearly, that is the kind of editor we need to carefully retain in order to make a quality reference work. Hipocrite (talk) 02:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Editors' beliefs aren't particularly relevant -- what they can show through citations to reliable third-party sources is. More problematic could be if an editor, regardless of belief, doesn't abide by WP:3RR, WP:BRD, etc. Rational skeptics who work in research can be just as "wrong" as believers in the paranormal when it comes to editing practices. Rather than whacking at Logos5557's beliefs, time'd be better spent ensuring the disputed article's content stands up to WP:V. --EEMIV (talk) 02:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

And I concur with that point. However the only user who has violated WP:3RR is Logos5557 (talk · contribs) he launched this ANI when he was warned about edit warring against consensus. Simonm223 (talk) 12:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Actual Timeline of Events

Full page history here

25 September, final edit prior to edit war. [41]

27 September: Logos5557 (talk · contribs) breaks WP: 3RR: [42], [43], [44], [45], [46], [47]

27 September, 1912: I warn Logos5557 about edit warring [48]

27 September, 1914: I make my most recent edit to page [49]

27 September, 20:03: Logos5557 warns me about WP:OR and WP:SYNTH (disregarding the fact that what I inserted (and left in after first reversion) was all derived from cited WP:RS. [50]

28 September, 00:29 (I have made no intervening edits to Global Consciousness Project) Logos 5557 notifies me that he has opened the WP:ANI here. [51] Simonm223 (talk) 13:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me concur with EEMIV's points, too, if that will get some sort of support. I do not agree, unsurprisingly, with your assertion about edit warring. Is there anything wrong with launching an ANI after some sort of magical warning? I take Hipocrite's comment as a "declaration of concurrence", as an "endorsement of the case" since he/she concentrates on my "beliefs" instead of addressing the facts of the case. Logos5557 (talk) 13:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I guess being the second (and third ... which is a minor edit to my previous comment) link in point 12 makes me involved despite not being notified. On to the OP's points:

1. Please read WP:Edit warring. There is no WP:TRUTH exception.
2. A neutral notice to the Fringe theories/Noticeboard is perfectly acceptable as a means of attracting outside eyes to an article.
3. One editor alone cannot edit war, but please see WP:Vandalism and avoid describing other editors' good faith contributions as "damage".

4-11.  Stop edit warring and call a request for comment. Notifying another user of the three-revert rule (and that it is sufficient but not necessary evidence of edit warring) is considered evidence that that user is aware of the issue. Please avoid templating the regulars, as it is more likely to escalate the dispute and rigidify positions than just talking it out on the page dedicated to that purpose. A friendly (or at least neutral) request to usertalk that points at an issue on articletalk you wish to be addressed is fine.

12.  Logos5557, please consider that if a significant number of other editors think that you are wrong, then you should at least evaluate your points. Edit warring will not achieve consensus. Incivility will not achieve consensus. Throwing around wiki-acronyms will not achieve consensus. Talking it out should lead to consensus, though it may not match your opinion. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about not notifying you and other editor (voiceofreason) personally, about this ANI. I thought it would be sufficient to place a notification on article talk page for those who would like to get involved, here.

1- I guess you should read WP:Edit warring, too. It states here that "If you are claiming an exemption it is a good idea to make sure that there is a clearly visible edit summary or separate section of the talk page that explains and justifies the exemption."

2- I don't think that Simonm223's notice to fringe noticeboard was neutral at all. Fringe noticeboard is not a "military trench" for "recruits" to get some rest and to look for some relief.

3- "Damage" happens when a user base his/her edits (which he/she makes in article) on discussions (actually Simonm223 based on his personal opinions) made in article's talk page, without presenting the sources verifying the information added, because that contradicts with very fundamental principles of wikipedia. I'm just calling a spade a spade here.

4-11- I believe my "trials" in article talk page are sufficient evidences of "trying to resolve the issues by communication".

12- "A significant number of other editors"; can you define "significant number" and guidelines on which numbers should be accepted as significant in which cases? Is 3 enough? 4? Or is this some sort of confirmation of your non-neutrality in this case. Logos5557 (talk) 15:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:RS does not apply directly to talk page discussions. So long as it stays within the bounds of WP:CIVIL I am free to express my opinion on a talk page. If I can not find a RS for my opinions and put them onto the actual article page then, at that point, these statements enter into the WP:RS policy realm. Am I honestly being attacked for holding an opinion in talk space? Can any indications be made that I edited the article in any way counter to Wikipedia policy? Simonm223 (talk) 19:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I object against the qualification POV pushing concerning this edit. That is simply a corrected and improved summary of the source. Logos5557 has a clever way of turning things around. He makes us believe that PEAR is something completely different then Global Consciousness Project, and that because of that, the criticism of Jeffers does not apply, therefore reverting it, reverting it, reverting it. But PEAR is an acronym of Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab from which the Global Consciousness Project originated. This is simply his way of taking out a major point of critism, namely the critisism of Jeffers. I can imagine that Logos5557 does not like what Jeffers is saying, because it pulls away the very foundation underneath the Global Consciousness Project. It were Jahn and Dunne from PEAR who made the false assumption that in a cumulative random number generator the baseline hovers around the zero line. But it doesn't, just like in coin flipping the chance does not increase for heads, after a large sequence of tails. It is this fallacy that crawled into the project as a means to distinguish between normal random and abnormal random behaviour. And the random number generators are the bricks in the building of GCP. Pull them out, and nothing is left. So Jeffers has to go, and Logo5557 does anything to achieve that.

As for the term random number generator: there are in real life random number generators and pseudorandom number generators. One generates random numbers, and the other doesn't. But what are truly random number generators? In what way do they differ from random number generators? In nothing, therefore this is a pleonasm, only suggesting some devine extra quality that is not there. In literature, truly random number generators only point at flaws in practical designs of previous random number generators, or are part of advertisement language. So call it edit-warring, but I just like to get the text right.

Is the Global Consciousness Project pseudoscience. Yes, because the solid criticism of Jeffers, as far as I can see, was never taken up. Yes, because independent scientist, May and Spottiswoode, looked at the GCP's flagship, the 0911-attack, and concluded that despite the hailed results of GCP, no anomaly was there. Yes, because there is no independent confirmation of GCP's results. May and Spottiswoode advised to, at least, split up GCP's world wide network into two halves, so if an anomaly would occur in one network, it could be tested in the other network. GCP, as far as I know, never took that up either. And even if they will, they will not have nulled design flaws (Jeffers), and they will not have nulled the possible bias of human interpretors, because it would still be the same team with the same prepossession that would do the analysis. Only when an entirely different and independent team, with different equipment comes up with the same result, we may be talking about science. Untill then it's not. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 21:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Jan Arkesteijn for confirming my assertions of OR and synthesis. GCP has certainly no connection with PEAR, and with Jahn and Dunne. Do you see their names in GCP team list? Even if they give any support/contribution to GCP, criticisms should be about GCP studies/experiments/papers, to be included in GCP article. Why didn't GCP never take Jeffers' "solid ciriticism" up; because it is not related to GCP. Why Jahn and Dunne didn't answer Jeffers? I really don't know but my guess is; they publish a paper in 80's, somebody wakes up after 20 years and criticise their paper to "rebutt" whole PEAR. I wish they "answer the call" some day if they haven't retired yet. You present May and Spottiswoode as if they had crumbled "GCP's flagship". This is not true, either. I didn't search extensively (may be some people from GCP have published a detailed paper on their criticism as well) but GCP replied their criticism here [52]. What Simonm223 and Jan Arkesteijn do not understand here that we can't synthesize things out from sources (things which those sources do not say), and put in wikipedia articles. There are two main types of random number generators; hardware (or truly random) and software (or pseudorandom). When "truly" is removed, it becomes unclear which type is referred to. It seems I should better have launched this incident on administrators noticeboard. Logos5557 (talk) 07:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Wolfkeeper

Please see these two diffs: [53], and [54] I'm all for talking this out, but it seems obvious where this is headed. If someone could talk Wolfkeeper (talk · contribs) down from the top of the Reichstag, I would appreciate it. I'd really rather simply avoid the fight in the first place then have someone come here later on with bad blood. Thanks.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 22:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• The above user has made two very contentious edits to core policies without any prior discussion.[55] [56]. I can only speculate as to his motives, but if he was trying to do things in the way we would expect around here he would have discussed them first.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:18, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
• If you don't want to be reverted like this, then don't muck around trying to unilaterally declare non-policy the oldest policy that we have. Uncle G (talk) 22:20, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

  I'm not upset in the least, especially since I half expected this to happen (which is why I posted a lengthy explaination on the talk page before editing). What bothers me is Wolfkeepers obviously script driven ability to impose his views on anyone who touches the document in question, and the behavior issues underlying the reason I brought this here. A cursory examination of the two diffs, and Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia is not a dictionary should make it obvious what the issue is, and rather attempting to directly address the issue with an obviously emotional editor I was hoping to receive some outside assistance. Should I wait until we're actually at each others throats and have both broken 3RR before coming here?
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 22:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

  So, apart from deciding you get to unilaterally change the core policies, you also think you get to justify it with bad faith character assassination of people that disagree with you? And you also seem to be claiming that whatever the result from a discussion would be you're planning to edit war to change it anyway. You may want to stop digging this hole for yourself.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 01:02, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

  I didn't unilaterally decide anything, you did that yourself though by relying on the undo tool. Anyway, I'm not going to allow you to bait me into stooping to your level. Who did what and who said what is easily accessible to those who are willing to look, and I provided diffs above.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

  Removing a core policy be a guideline requires something of the order of an RFC and a consultation period. You... didn't... do... anything.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 02:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

  I haven't done anything except pick up where the previous conversation left off (and I would personally welcome an RFC, if you're up to beginning one). Aside from that, the fact is that despite your continuing accusations I haven't removed anything, and I'm not attempting to remove anything.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 03:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

  You've changed it three times so far. This is known as edit warring. You've done it without consensus- there was no prior consensus, and there certainly is not now. Perhaps there's a problem with the word 'consensus'. It means 'everyone agrees', not just you on your own.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 03:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• It is not unilateral as there has been longstanding disquiet about this page which is reflected in the many discussions upon its talk page - discussions which User:Ohms law has read and acted upon. Unfortunately it seems to be something of a policy backwater and so it is routinely misunderstood by editors who regularly nominate articles for deletion on the grounds that they are short and so, supposedly, are dictionary entries. Age means little because of the Eternal September effect, as you so well describe it. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
  • There was no recent discussion nor any form of consensus.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:47, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Now it's not just Wolfkeeper, User:Roux has started making threats. (No idea what he's carrying on about re: warnings, but that's not really important).
• Maybe I'm off base here, but I know that I'm perfectly calm, and willing to discuss this small change in categorization (there's not content in dispute here). My perception is that the "opposition" jummped to a "sotto voice" defense, utilizing (off point) hyperbole, and displaying a significant ownership issue. I'm honestly not sure what the core issue is, since all of the bad faith accusations that are being thrown around are completely missing what the actual edit that their undoing is accomplishing.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 02:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  You have now attempted to demote that policy to guideline three times. In each instance, you have been reverted. There is no consensus for the change whatsoever, thus the warning: continue to make the change against consensus, and you will be blocked by some admin for disruption, to prevent further editing against consensus. It's not that hard to understand. → ROUX ₪ 02:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  Sorry about bouncing this around like this, I didn't realize that I went all the way up to AN (rather then here to ANI) from the archives.

  Anyway, you're the one (along with Wolfkeeper) using the undo tool Roux, so if anyone here is being disruptive then it would be you. I'm not sure why you're so obviously upset about. Normally I would recommend stepping away, but based on past conflicts that I've seen you involved in I know that this appears to be your normal state of mind, so stepping away wouldn't solve anything.

  Regardless, There's nothing being changed other then categorization, so the accusations of disruption and appeals to "lack of consensus" are completely off base (I could actually dispute the lack of consensus charge, but I don't see what the point is since there's nothing here that requires consensus). You're reverting over a categorization change here.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 03:04, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  Wow, where do I begin... how about you can the personal fucking attacks, to begin with? That would be a good start. Second, this isn't about 'categorization', this is about a core policy that has been a Wikipedia policy for years, with the attendant need to adhere to it. You want to downgrade it from required to suggested. There is a difference between the two. Consensus is required, as it is required for everything on Wikipedia. That is, in fact, how the entire project runs. Consensus comes in two varieties: implicit and explicit. Implicit consensus means that nobody objects when you make a change. However, since there have been objections, you must seek explicit consensus. That does not exist at this time. You know that doesn't exist, because you have already been told it doesn't. You also know that your change the first time was unacceptable, because both Wolfkeeper and Uncle G told you so. Using the undo button to revert bad-faith edits against consensus is not, actually, disruptive--no matter how much you might wish to paint everyone else as being disruptive, you are the one that must achieve consensus for the change you wish to implement. → ROUX ₪ 03:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  You're making the personal attacks, not I. I've remained calm and on point for several days now, I'm not the one flying off the handle and lashing out at others here.

  I'm not changing the document itself at all, which is why I've been saying that the criticism from yourself and others has been missing the mark. This is a good example of how WP:OWN and wikilawyering actually cause harm, because if you would relax and read what I'm actually trying to tell you instead of lashing out then we could talk about this (which is why this is an "incident", not coincidentally). Anyway, I addressed the actual change further on the relevant talk page.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 03:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  Actually, you're the one who did start off making personal attacks. But hey, reality, who needs it. How is editing the document somehow not changing the document? Right now, it is a policy. That means it is mandatory subject to the exigencies of WP:IAR. You wish to downgrade it to a guideline, making it optional. How is that not a change? → ROUX ₪ 03:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  I'm of the opinion that User:Ohms law is trolling; it certainly seems to walk like a WP:DUCK. He turns up, reads the talk page, notices there is no consensus, (he already admitted he read the talk page before hand, and would certainly have noticed this), and then starts editing anyway. That's being a troll, there's no other reasonable explanation. He then sticks a merge notice, which would basically have the effect of completely deleting the policy page if actioned.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 03:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  He is disrupting the wikipedia; WP:POINT.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 03:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  Once is a mistake, editing it 3 times and putting up the merge notice is disruption.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 03:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• And we've come full circle. Again, if someone could talk these gentlemen down from the top of the Reichstag, perhaps we could have a real conversation. A block of anyone here is a loss for Wikipedia as a whole. Some sort of intervention would be very appreciated, so that we could debate the substance of the issue (including quite possibly an RFC) rather then... this. Thanks.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  Then leave it in the original state, before it was ever changed, and begin a discussion on the talk page abotu changing it. In the spirit of pages like WP:BURDEN and WP:BRD, it is the responsibility of the person wishing to change the status quo to convince others of the necessity of the change. You cannot repeatedly claim that because you made the first edit, that it is others, and somehow not you, who are responsible for the edit war. It's your proposed change, and it is being contested in good faith by others. So, leave the change out until you can establish consensus. --Jayron32 05:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  It's "original state" predates any categorization, so leaving it in it's "original state" simply isn't possible. Regardless, accepting a fait acompli is their means of "winning", which is why this conflict actually goes back several months (predating my involvement). If someone would step in and deflate the situation and/or stop the attempts at browbeating those who dispute them into submission, then we could have an actual discussion about it. From what has been said on the page in question, we agree more then we disagree. The conflict arises primarily from an aparent dissagrement of the interpretation of WP:POLICY (based on incorrect assumptions that guidelines are "optional", and\or a change in categorization is somehow "demoting" the document), but there is also a heavy component of "stay away from my work!" to this (at least in my perception, which is really what this thread is about. Be sure to read edit summaries as well). I would love to discuss the first part, but the screaming and carrying on connected with the second part makes that nearly impossible.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  Stop screwing around. You know exactly what I meant by "original state". The "policy" categorization has been on that page for years. Leave it the way you found it, and make your arguements on the talk page. You may very well be right here, but by trying to force others to accept your change, rather than discussing the matter civily, you are doing yourself no favors. Being right wins you no points when you behave poorly. --Jayron32 05:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  I'd echo that there is some very poor conduct; I hope protection and sanctions will not become necessary. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  Agree with Jayron32. No opinion about the substantive question, but we do expect contested changes to policy pages to obtain clear consensus before they happen; edit-warring to make a policy change is blockable conduct. Please stop.  Sandstein  06:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  These opinions would be more appropriate at Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia is not a dictionary#Change to guideline (where there is information showing that Jayron's suggestion is misinformed, which shouldn't be surprising considering the lack of any attention that this document has ever received). Regardless, I started this discussion in order to address tendentious, outright hostile editing that displays a sense of ownership one one user's part, and incivility on the part of another. Can we discuss that here, and leave the substantive discussion on the talk page linked to above?
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 06:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  It seems you are missing the point; the opinions stated here are well suited for this thread. Sandstein was pretty explicit in his view: "no opinion about the substantive question". In fact, the other opinions stated here since your comment at 04:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC) seem to focus on conduct, particularly yours. I really cannot understand why you'd want these opinions to go to the talk page when they are not, as you've referred to it as, "substantive". Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  Jayron's "solution" is to give up, and accept that Wolfkeeper and Roux can browbeat and complain loud enough to make a prevent defense workable here. They may be successful, but I would hope that those of you seeing this from the outside would be interested enough to actually look at what's occurring rather then just trying to make it go away. I know that you're busy, which is fine... if you're not interested, just leave it alone. There is a serious problem here though, and becoming involved in the other side of the underlying dispute isn't addressing the problem. ANI is not a component of dispute resolution after all, so how about we not allow the edit warriors to use it as such?
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 07:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  I don't believe that was Jayron32's solution at all. You made a bold edit to revise the page as a guideline, but you were reverted. What that means is that you need to stop forcing the change by repeatedly making that bold edit (which will result in an edit war) - instead, you should work on discussing the issue on the talk page, and gaining a consensus to make that change. Once there is a consensus to make that change, then there would be no issue with you making that edit again to change the page to guideline status. You may wish to re-read his comments in light of my own interpretation. To respond to your other comments, people don't want to get involved in disputes or certain discussions for a variety of reasons - time or being busy is only one such reason, and is not applicable to every individual who commented here. I also don't see how edit warriots are using ANI (or this thread) as a formal step in dispute resolution, when it is not. Could you clarify what you meant? Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  The thing is, my change wasn't bold at all. The first discussion (this year) was archived when I started a new thread is all. This is the continuation of an issue which has been ongoing since 2005, so characterizing this as a "change" or as a "bold edit" is simply incorrect. The only reason that there has been any stability to this at all is that nobody has been willing to stand up and try to solve the dispute (see the usage and watchlist stats given in the discussion on the talk page). If that takes discussing things here, then so be it, but it would be helpful if all interested parties would read the discussion archives and the edit histories.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 08:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Here, in the interest of attempting to settle this, this is my original reasoning:

I've changed the tag on (Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary) to label it as a guideline. I have at least skimmed through the conversations above [and in the archives], and I'm not unsympathetic to the issues that are raised in favor of keeping it labeled as a policy, yet I'm unconvinced. From WP:POL: "Policies ... are standards that all users should follow. They are often closely related to the five pillars of Wikipedia." and "Guidelines are primarily advisory. They advise on ... how to apply and execute policy under specific circumstances." Since this document is intended to support a specific case given in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, it is clearly advisory in applying that policy, and should therefore be a guideline. I also see some arguments above, given in support of keeping this a policy document, which seem to reply on a value judgment where there is an assumption that policies are somehow greater then guidelines. Where that could be true in cases of conflict between two documents, it's not a general axiom by any means.

One huge point to keep in mind there is that none of the content is disputed. The follow on discussion offered by Wolfkeeper actually supports changing it to a guideline, as Dank points out later in the discussion. The issue is that Wolfkeeper seems to think that guidelines are optional and that policy is The Law. More of a problem though is his obvious view that it's "his policy" to protect, which is what brought me here (see his immediate reply in the discussion thread, along with several angry edit summaries.

Regardless, addressing the "leave it in it's original state" criticism directly, as I mentioned above it's not possible to do that. This isn't a "game" at all, as the history of this document goes back to 2001. {{Policy}} and {{Guideline}} date to 2005, which is when the underlying issue here first cropped up. I should mention that I'm simply the latest in a long series of people to bring this issue up. I see no reason we should slavishly be beholden to a decision make in 2005. That and I'm definitely not edit warring (as much as Wolfkeeper obviously wishes that I would).
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 07:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Ohms law, it looks to me like you're the one on top of the Reichstag right now. You say yourself that you "half expected this to happen" but went ahead with the edit anyway without a suitable discussion? To say that was asking for trouble would be an understatement. When making a change that's likely to be controversial, the procedure is to discuss first and then edit, not edit first and then discuss. I suggest you follow Jayron32's advice, which seems quite appropriate to me. ≈ Chamal ^talk ¤ 07:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why Wolfkeeper should be able to claim the high-ground after having simply browbeaten his previous "opposition" in this. And again, this isn't actually a change, it's the continuation of a long running dispute due to the fact that the document itself predates policy\guideline classifications. The reason that I half expected this to happen, and the reason that I started this thread, was due to the bad faith and tendentious behavior displayed in this matter previously, as well as the incivil remarks and immediate battle mentality displayed. Should I instead fight back, using the same mannerisms?
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 08:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

We're not saying that at all. Look, if you want the change to occur, and you feel that the problem is that your version would be upheld if only more editors could read and understand your rationale, then there are ways to get more eyes on the page in question. If you make an anouncement at WP:VPP, there are thousands of editors that regularly read that page, and many would likely have an opinion on the matter. You could start a WP:RFC to bring in more eyes. You could request that the talk page be added to WP:CD which would put an anouncement for more discussion all over Wikipedia. You have not tried ANY of these Ohm's Law. All you have done is a) edit warred b) run into opposition (and I am willing to posit that your opposition may be wrong here, but that is NOT at issue at this point) and c) come here to complain. If you are tired of 1-2 editors monopolizing the conversation, bring more editors into the conversation. There are lots of ways to do so, so long as you do not WP:CANVASS or WP:FORUMSHOP then asking at the appropriate noticeboards is a fine way to get more comment. ANI is not an appropriate noticeboard for this however. --Jayron32 12:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, I have no personal opinion on the matter. I find that having two different levels of "stuff you should do at Wikipedia" pages is confusing, and thus I generally hold that policies and guidelines hold the same general function, and holding that there is a distinction in how we treat them is a bad idea. SO my opinion is this is a silly debate. However, if you feel that this is important, and you are very reasonable for believing differently than I do, then there ARE proper ways to get this done. What you have tried to do so far isn't it. --Jayron32 12:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Notpietru

• Pietru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Notpietru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Could some independent admin please look at the recent trolling behavior of User:Notpietru? He's been making not unreasonable edits to Maltese (dog) but his commentary is obviously designed to provoke others. See [57] (Mljet / Malta theory of origin is the center of the dispute), [58], [59], [60], [61]. Much of this is directed at Imbris, who has barely even edited the article recently, though he has been provoked into complaining. I tried to warn him about this confrontational approach; see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive563#User:Pietru / User:Notpietru and Maltese (dog), in which I requested independent input before but received none. Mangojuice^talk 05:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Is this still going on? This is hardly new behavior. He started a new account, but he has a block history under his old account, pretty much for this exact sort of behavior. He has serious WP:OWN issues it seems, which have led to edit warring over numerous Malta-related articles for some time... --Jayron32 05:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

His old account was blocked for one month on August 8th, his new account(the one above) was registered on August 15th, meaning it was used for block evasion, and therefore abusive sockpuppetry. It should therefore be blocked indef.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 06:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Read april as august. Ya.. oops. Either way, he should still be blocked for disruption.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 06:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Continued wikistalking/wikihounding and harassment from User:Miami33139

See also: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive566 § Help with editor assuming bad faith

• Miami33139 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've made two previous AN/I reports and this is still unresolved. Since the first two reports, User:Miami33139 has continued to wikistalk/wikihound and has even attempted to bring others into their own efforts. I seem to have come to the attention of Miami33139 due to tagging articles for the WP:COMP workflow.

The first AN/I report that I made on September 15th can be found here. The second AN/I report that I made on September 17th can be found here. Miami33139 refused to participate in the second AN/I discussion.

Since the second AN/I report, Miami33139 has also continued their bulk removal of edits made to articles by User:Ed Fitzgerald. This month alone Miami33139 has removed 100s, possibly as many as 500 or more of User:Ed Fitzgerald's edits. [62] This seems to have originally started around January 2009 [63] and since then Miami33139 took this on as a personal crusade to remove his edits, up to the point where User:Ed Fitzgerald left Wikipedia. There was also a WQA regarding Ed's edits here and an AN/I report made by Miami33139 here. They have been using "T - I have tidied." in many of their edit summaries when removing Ed's edits but have also used other text in the past.

Furthermore, Miami33139 seems to consider the lack of action over the last two AN/I reports indication that their actions are acceptable. See [64]

Timeline of interaction

• Prior to the What wp is not revert below, It appears Miami33139 began digging into my contributions due to my work on the WP:COMP deletion tagging workflow.
• Reverted my removal of an invalid CSD R2 for What wp is not [65]
• Got involved in the Davfs2 AfD [66]
• Modified User:ParkerJones2007/Comparison of Prolog standards compliance which was userfied during the Comparison of Prolog standards compliance AfD that I had recently participated in. [67]
• After !voting in the Davfs2 AfD, they began mass prodding a number of articles relating to Linux file systems [68] [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] and subsequently nominated one for deletion when it was de-prodded. [74] (kept)
• Nominated NexIRC for deletion at AfD after seeing my edits to the article. [75] (merge/redirect)
• Nominated What wp is not for deletion at RfD. [76] (kept)
  • It was at this point I made the first AN/I report. Two days later after realizing they were mass-reverting User:Ed Fitzgerald's edits I made the second AN/I report. It was at this point that Miami33139 stepped up their wikistalking efforts to a whole new level.
• Got involved in the Parchive AfD [77] (kept)
• Got involved in the ProSystem (Emulator) AfD [78] (merge/redirect)
• Got involved in the Parchive DRV [79]
  • I decided at this point to try an experiment and tag (see articles' talk pages) and !vote in a number of WP:COMP articles that were at AfD as a test to see if Miami33139 really was without a doubt monitoring my contribs. They were.
• Celemony AfD [80]
• Elecard MPEG Player AfD [81]
• OneFinger AfD [82]
• Fortitude HTTP AfD [83]
  • Miami33139 then decided to nominate more articles I've worked on for deletion and attempted to CSD G8 a template I had created for Comparison of Internet Relay Chat clients.
• Nominated Psotnic for deletion at AfD after seeing my edits to the article. [84]
• Attempted to CSD G8 Template:Latest stable software release/rxIRC [85]
• Nominated ZNC (IRC bouncer) for deletion at AfD. [86]
• Nominated Bip IRC Proxy for deletion at AfD. [87]
• Nominated PsyBNC for deletion at AfD. [88]
• Nominated Psyced for deletion at AfD. [89]
• Prodded KoolChat. [90]
• Filed a WQA against me here. [91] [92] (Note this diff, which also shows that they have been monitoring my contributions. [93])
• Got involved in the QuickPar AfD [94]
• Made a borderline personal attack on my talk page after having been told in the WQA to disengage. [95] (removed by another editor)
• Canvassed and attempted to bring User:JBsupreme and User:Joe Chill into their own efforts. [96] [97]
• Got involved in the SmartPAR AfD [98]
• Prodded Quiet Internet Pager. [99]
• Nominated Template:Latest stable software release/rxIRC for deletion at TfD [100]
  • Note Miami33139 appears to be attempting in the TfD [101] to get all the subtemplates removed in an attempt to damage Comparison of Internet Relay Chat clients, which they know I've spent months so far restructuring and expanding.
• Nominated Quiet Internet Pager for deletion at AfD. [102]
• Prodded rcirc. [103]
• Got involved in the Leafpad AfD [104]
• Prodded Bottler (IRC client). [105]
• Prodded Pork client. [106]

I do not believe Miami33139 has any intentions of disengaging as they were asked/told repeatedly in the WQA [107] [108] [109] and the above diffs and Miami33139's contribution history should speak for itself.

In addition, after these edits by User:JBsupreme and User:Joe Chill on 5 of the AfDs and the TfD Miami33139 initiated, it appears as though there may be some off-wiki communication and meatpuppetry occurring. I do not believe there to be sockpuppetry involved but given Miami33139's attempts to bring these two editors into their own efforts against me, [110] [111] I do not believe these !votes cannot be considered coincidental.

• Psotnic AfD [112] [113]
• ZNC (IRC bouncer) AfD [114] [115]
• Bip IRC Proxy AfD [116] [117]
• Psyced AfD [118] [119]
• PsyBNC (2nd nomination) AfD [120] [121]
• Template:Latest stable software release/rxIRC TfD [122]

--Tothwolf (talk) 07:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• This timeline of edits does appear to be worrying, and I think Miami needs to explain the apparent correlation between the two edit histories quickly. If none is forthcoming, some remedies spring to mind, such as interaction bans. Comment from Miami is, however, what is needed at this point. For transparency, Tothwolf notified me of this thread as well as at least one other administrator - the notification was neutral in tone, and I am unaware of any significant involvement with either editor. Fritzpoll (talk) 12:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I was almost certainly notified because of my article rescue of UMSDOS (AfD discussion), which tacitly demonstrated as false claims that independent sources do not exist. I found it quite easy to find sources in that particular case. Possibly my question at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ZNC (IRC bouncer) — a little bit of AFD patrol to try to eke out a good rationale that a closing administrator can hang xyr hat from — is relevant, too. Uncle G (talk) 13:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Uncle G, you rescued the UMSDOS article by changing the topic to FAT Filesystems and Linux. I was perfectly happy to remove my nomination with the expansion from a single topic to an umbrella topic. This does not "tacitly demonstrated as false claims that independent sources do not exist" because you changed the subject matter to find sources about. You changed the subject, managing to include the previous info, and I withdrew the nomination. That is good faith from both of us and fairly normal process. This has nothing to do with Tothwolf either, yet you seem to be using it here to hammer me about bad faith in a discussion about Tothwolf. Miami33139 (talk) 16:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
      • False. The subject matter did not change. It expanded, and sources were found by the simple action of sticking the word "UMSDOS" into a search engine. As I said, I found that quite easy. And since I didn't mention doing this, either in the AN/I discussion or the AFD discussion, it was tacit by the very definition of the word. Uncle G (talk) 18:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I would be happy to go back to my regular editing pattern of working on technology, Linux, and IRC-related articles, and doing occasional deletion tagging for WP:COMP when other editors get bogged down but I'm currently unable to do so as something as simple as a vandalism revert or a minor template change will cause User:Miami33139 to AfD said article. [123] [124]
    Miami33139 has historically not worked on articles in these areas but while having to sift through contribs to create the above list, I found a troubling pattern of what appears to be bad {{prod}} and CSD tagging. Miami33139 claims a deletion percentage of 80% [125] and while I would think this is probably not something to brag about, I can't help but wonder just how many of these are badly placed prod and CSD tags, especially with this comment that they made at TfD regarding their own CSD tagging efforts of subtemplates. [126]
    I found additional evidence of bad CSD tagging while looking at Comparison of media players as Miami33139 had most recently largely been targeting media player type software for deletion. Possible examples may include [127] [128] [129] [130] [131] [132] [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] [138] [139] all of which are/were still in use at the time that they were CSD tagged and deleted. See Comparison of media players#Video players and Comparison of media players#Audio players.
    Given Miami33139's attempt to CSD G8 and now TFD Template:Latest stable software release/rxIRC, [140] [141] which they saw me create while expanding Comparison of Internet Relay Chat clients, I think it is quite obvious this was meant as harassment and they are abusing both CSD and TFD.
    Their removals of User:Ed Fitzgerald's edits are as equally worrying and it seems as though my raising concerns over those removals may have been what led Miami33139 to step up the level of their actions against me.
    Given the history I see in Miami33139's contributions, I personally would support a restriction for Miami33139 barring them from using any sort of JavaScript (monobook.js, Greasemonkey, etc) or other forms of automated editing tools as it would appear that they have a long history of misusing them.
    --Tothwolf (talk) 15:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
• I originally discussed some of these issues with User:Miami33139 following his report to wp:wqa. I was disappointed in that, even as I was advising him his best bet was to disengage, he was taking concrete steps that appeared likely to unnecessarily escalate tensions with User:Tothwolf. Like Fritzpol, I was troubled by the number of instances in which User:Miami33139 tagged articles for deletion only hours after User:Tothwolf had last edited said articles. At some point, the sheer frequency of those occurrences being happenstance begins to stretch the assumption of good faith to its limits. user:J aka justen (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Just a note, as I haven't been able to go through all of the evidence, but User:Miami33139 edited Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Celemony ([142]) before Tothwolf made any edit ([143]) on the talkpage. This by no means makes all of the evidence wrong, but it shouldn't be taken at face value. Quantpole (talk) 14:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Struck from list above, good catch, thanks. --Tothwolf (talk) 14:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

What's up with you and assuming bad faith? I didn't talk to them off-wiki. Joe Chill (talk) 15:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• You were supposed to notify everyone involved in the report. Your issue is with Miami so leave me the hell out of it. Joe Chill (talk) 15:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • You were involved in this within the past 24 hours at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#User:Tothwolf. You were involving yourself in it, by creating reports on this very noticeboard within the past 48 hours, at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive566#Help with editor assuming bad faith and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive566#CSD-G4. You are currently involved in this within the past 48 hours with a lengthy discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leafpad (2nd nomination), where you seem to be suffering from a severe case of "I'm not listening!". Crying that you aren't involved (since you clearly are) and that you didn't know this was happening at WP:AN/I (when you started two of these discussions) isn't really going to wash. Uncle G (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I never said that I wasn't involved. I said that I should have been notified! How was I supposed to know that Tothwolf would start this report? My first post here has nothing to do with Tothwolf. Joe Chill (talk) 18:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Probably by the very method that you demonstrably did know. You are, after all, here. And you were already here on this noticeboard, starting discussions yourself about this. This is a discussion of your interactions with Tothwolf and others. Wikilawyering over formalities that your very presence here clearly demonstrates to be needless is, as I said, really not going to wash. Nor, indeed, is your claim that Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive566#Help with editor assuming bad faith is not about Tothwolf, given that it clearly is. Uncle G (talk) 18:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
        • I said that the csd-g4 discussion wasn't about this (which is the first one). I found out about this discussion on accident because I thought that the issue with Tothwolf was over. I am not wiki-lawyering. I have been participating in software AFDs for a year. I said zero uncivil things, but I'm still being attacked. Joe Chill (talk) 19:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
        • And it has been hours with no replies and with how this discussion is going, there will most likely be no conclusion like most posts at ANI. The person that started the report hasn't bothered to reply in the last several hours and his recent edit here was to fix a spelling error. No one besides me has replied in the past several hours. Uncle G was only able to respond to me with false claims and not to Miami's long post down below. Quantpole and J seems to be done with the discussion and if that is, it was a longer time ago. No one else besides us seems to be interested in this discussion. Joe Chill (talk) 02:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

response

Tothwolf is crying wolf. Note [144], [145], [146], are not about me. Tothwolf has been accusing JBsupreme, Joe Chill, and probably others of bad faith, retaliation, and targeting him in the last several days in deletion discussions. These accusations from him are getting stale.

It may be tl;dr, but I have thoroughly answered this here: User_talk:Miami33139#Wikistalking. I also requested intervention here, Wikipedia:WQA#User:Tothwolf, over the weekend, because Tothwolf is accusing multiple people of harassing him. Most of this "evidence" is nothing more than saying I have been involved in PROD or AfD discussions for software that is not apparently notable. It has nothing to do with him and I have been doing this for a year! except for the fact that he works or is somehow involved with a company that makes products that have to to with IRC so he feels invested in this area. Any examination of my deletion discussions over the last year, will show you that this last week has been absolutely routine.

To the extent it is about him, I looked at his contribution history when I first encountered him, in a public deletion discussion opened by someone else. I opened the category of Linux file systems, opened all the articles, and if they didn't have any usable references, I tagged them in various ways. I didn't look at Tothwolf to find them. I can look back to June to find my first interest in deletion/notability of the IRC category. I didn't find this via Tothwolf. Note that the suggestion to look at more IRC articles [147] here, did not come from Tothwolf. When he accused me of stalking him, I did not open his contribution history afterwards, but found the same articles and discussions via JBsupreme, Joe Chill and just opening the AfD page.

The most interesting things I have looked at have been things in AfD nominated by other people, not Tothwolf, then opening up the category of the article, or the contribution history of the nominator. This is an example, not involving Tothwolf, that AfD discussions happen totally rationally, in good faith, with my ability to recognize a fixed article Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/UMSDOS in his absence.

Since Tothwolf has a COI in this issue, and his "keep everything philosophy" about software is diametric to mine, it is just plain destiny that we will butt heads in this arena. Since he puts the Computing project wiki-banner on articles en-mass, there is no doubt he will have edited articles I start looking at. This is an open and transparent project without article or area ownership. Contributing to Wikipedia is under the assumption that contributions will be edited mercilessly, and that includes deletion. It's part of the Wikipedia charter. There is no personal crusade against him.

This is too long already. Miami33139 (talk) 15:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• Added point by point discussion of each bullet in Tothwolf's list, about half of which do not actually involve him: User:Miami33139/nothing. Miami33139 (talk) 16:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • It's surprising that what Tothwolf is doing is considered acceptable. After my ANI post ended with him calling me disruptive, pointy, a sockpuppet, and admitting that I didn't break any policies but was only breaking his belief about them was over, it started up again with him calling me a meatpuppet. I don't understand why people think that this is acceptable. Joe Chill (talk) 19:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Further evidence of wikistalking and harassment

I did some additional WP:COMP workflow tagging (see article talk pages) and it brought additional wikistalking evidence. The workflow bot has not updated yet (it won't update for approximately another 24 hours) so everything below was clearly taken from my contribs. Note the timestamps on the edits.

• JollysFastVNC (tag) [148] [149] [150]
• Monit (tag) [151]
• Nemu64 (tag) [152]
• MyPaint (tag) [153] [154]

Since User:Theserialcomma has been attempting to stir things up with regards to this AN/I report and Miami33139 [155] [156] (as they've done with other things in the past), the sudden !vote by Theserialcomma in the JollysFastVNC AfD was not a coincidence and their contribs [157] are quite telling.

User:JBsupreme is also becoming increasingly aggressive in his attempts to escalate things since I started this AN/I discussion.

• Got involved in the Quiet Internet Pager AfD User:Miami33139 initiated (see above) [158]
• Endorsed the prod of rcirc that User:Miami33139 placed (see above) [159]
• Got involved in the Leafpad AfD [160]
• Nominated E2compr for AfD after seeing my de-prodded and addition of a merge template as part of the WP:COMP workflow. [161]
• Nominated BitchX for AfD after seeing it in my tagging work. [162] (The nomination of this one is actually downright silly as it has references and we can easily find plenty more things with which to improve this article.)

With regards to the two AfD nominations, JBsupreme does not edit at all in this area. The E2compr and BitchX AfD nominations were pulled directly from my contributions and are blatant attempts to escalate things. Note that JBsupreme has an extremely long history of this type of behaviour with other editors and AfDs.

I also want to point out Miami33139 immediately got involved in the two AfD nominations JBsupreme made. If this isn't meatpuppetry, it is clearly some form of tag teaming behaviour. [163] [164]

Just before I posted this, User:JBsupreme decided to take things even further.

• Nominated Coolsmile for AfD after seeing it in my tagging work. [165]
• Mass-tagged a large number of IRC client software articles as CSD A7 (and A7 does not apply to software). [166] [167] [168] [169] [170] [171]

--Tothwolf (talk) 08:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

AIV backlogged

Resolved

AIV is backlogged with some reports hours old. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 07:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Admin User:NawlinWiki using abuse filter to block unregistered users from his talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Resolved

 – not an admin issue. IP editors are directed to WP:WHY and can choose to create an account or not, to their own choosing. NawlinWiki has agreed to modify the filter to include a better message to affected IPs. There is not anything else to be done here. --Jayron32 19:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

See also: Wikipedia:Edit filter/False positives § 98.248.33.198

Edit filter 233, called "User talk:NawlinWiki vandalism", seems to be set to block all unregistered users from posting to his talk page. The filter's logic is hidden from public view, but it is obvious from the filter log for the page that all unregistered users are being disallowed. The log shows that several good-faith communications by users such as User:81.130.92.204 and User:98.248.33.198, in addition to two test edits by me, were blocked. Worse, the filter labels these edits as "vandalism", and the users attempting to communicate with NawlinWiki get the message "your edit has been identified as potentially unconstructive, and has been disallowed".

Are admins allowed to shut off communication by unregistered users in this way? It is an important principle of Wikipedia that all users, and especially admins, must be open for, and respond to, discussion about their actions. The log shows that many of the edits that were blocked by this filter were legitimate attempts at communication. Also, the filter assumes bad faith by accusing the users of being vandals.

I think this blocking of unregistered users should be shut off. The filter seems also to have some logic checking the content of edits, and this could be tweaked instead so that vandalistic edits will be disallowed, but still allowing legitimate messages from unregistered users. At the very least, the filter should stop calling all edits by unregistered users vandalism, and the message displayed when it triggers should contain an explanation such as "This administrator has opted out of messages from unregistered users", making it clear why edits are being disallowed.

Note that I have not notified NawlinWiki of this thread, since the filter blocks me from doing so. I would appreciate if someone with an account could do so for me. 129.240.250.124 (talk) 08:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• From looking at the history of NawlinWiki's talkpage, I think it might have to do with abusive edits made against him from multiple IPs around September 2, edits which content I won't repeat here. The abuse filter was probably a last ditch effort to end that. I will contact NawlinWiki to let him know about this thread. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • In fairness, the logs show that the IP tried but was blocked by the filter from doing it. I appreciate the reasons, but the log is showing a lot of good-faith editors are getting blocked from his page. Perhaps NW could semi-protect and direct new editors to a different subpage so that the main talkpage is not affected? Fritzpoll (talk) 08:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    • All that will happen is the semi-prot overflow page will be overwritten by a certain chucklehead and his minions instead of the main talk page, and any real conversation will be lost in the garbage anyway. It sucks, but leaving it semi'd is really the lesser of two evils. SirFozzie (talk) 08:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
• I think you're right that the message given could be changed to treat false positives better; something like "I'm sorry, but due to heavy vandalism this page is closed to brand-new users." It's an alternative to semi-protection, with which more users would be prevented from commenting. Perhaps it could be enabled only as needed, though that can be hard to predict. The type of vandalism we're talking about is, someone will get 50 IPs to make the same edit at once. It varies too much to be filtered based on content. Evil saltine (talk) 08:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • something like "I'm sorry, but due to heavy vandalism this page is closed to brand-new users." - many IP editors have been here for years, for thousands of edits. It would be nice if the message could be changed. I'm sure the editor has good reason for using the filter. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 13:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Edit: And it seems rather.. shall we say... interesting that the IP's only two edits are here, and attempting to post on NawlinWiki's page. Sounds a wee bit fishy, without any further explanation of why the IP wants to contact NawlinWiki..... SirFozzie (talk) 08:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Assume good faith; I do see your point, but its possible that the anon is using a dynamic address and has actually made hundreds of contributions, and even if that's not the case, they have brought up a good point, and one that should be examined regardless of their motives for bring it up. Kind regards, Spitfire^Tally-ho! 09:03, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Considering the vast amount of history here (the sheer amount of disruption on that talk page, AN/ANI etcetera), sorry, the well of good faith done run dry. SirFozzie (talk) 10:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
        • "129.240.250.124" sorts out to an IP at the University of Oslo, where I believe each computer has a separate IP, hence a non-logged in user who goes to another terminal in the computer lab will wind up with a different IP being shown here. There is a reasonably large chance that the situation is as Spitfire suggests. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
        • Then you are wrong. See Wikipedia:Edit filter/False positives#98.248.33.198. There is not just one person trying to use NawlinWiki's talk page and being prevented from doing so. The edit filter is actually making it impossible for good faith editors without accounts to discuss NawlinWiki's administrative actions with xem. (98.248.33.198, if you are reading, I suggest that you simply take that request straight to Deletion Review.) Uncle G (talk) 11:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
          • Thanks Uncle G. I actually ended up bringing it here (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#request for a deleted page) instead, only to face ABF, accusations of being a registered user editing with an IP to muddle my ID. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 98.248.33.198 (talk) 18:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
• I'm not sure if this is an appropriate use of the edit filter. Semiprotection is the usual practice in these sorts of cases, and in practice doesn't have a much broader effect than the block-all-IPs filter in place now. Semiprotection has the added benefits of being a bit more transparent and 'open' — everyone can see the protection log, and all other administrators can (if necessary) modify protection settings. Settings for the edit filter can only be modified by a small pool of individuals, and I would suspect that but a small minority of admins have a good grasp of how it works (I doubt I would be considered one of them). As noted, the messages users receive when their edits hit the filter are confusing and rather bitey, whereas with page protection the message is more neutral and the protection log explanation is visible. Finally, aren't these sorts of single-page filters discouraged for server-load reasons? My understanding was that every single edit to Wikipedia is checked against the entire list of filters and that adding items to the list of filters was 'costly'; has that changed? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
• Without saying what the filter actually does, it doesn't actually disallow all IP users from NW's talkpage, and is thus potentially better than semi-ing the article. The fact that no IP has actually edited the page since it was used probably tells you more about the IPs editing his talk page than anything else; though yes, it will produce false positives, and has. On the other hand, semi-ing the page would mean no IP editors could edit it. Black Kite 14:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Whatever extra conditions the filter has, they must be pretty broad since it disallows legitimate edits like this: [172] [173] [174] I don't really see how this "tells you more about the IPs editing his talk page than anything else". I'd say it tells you more about the brokenness of the filter than anything else. 129.240.72.102 (talk) 14:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Actually is does prevent all IP editing, but it's less restrictive than semi-protection for registered accounts. I agree with TenOfAllTrades though. At a minimum there should be a useful message, but the whole filter should probably be deprecated. Most of the bad edits should be caught by other filters, and the usual semi-protection arrangements can deal with the rest. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 14:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Meh, I read it as ... well, I'm sure you can guess. Yeah, given what it actually does do, there needs to be a useful message, both for IPs and the registered accounts that it does catch. Black Kite 14:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • If the edit filter is based, as I suspect it to be, upon Roux's ill-founded assumption of bad faith above, at #request for a deleted page, then it is not a well-constructed filter. Special:Contributions/98.248.33.198, which includes edits like this one, is more than enough to disabuse anyone of that silly notion. Uncle G (talk) 14:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    • As a couple of people have correctly noted above, the filter is an attempt to stop talk-page attacks by User:JarlaxleArtemis, who recruits them on 4chan /b/. It is less restrictive than semiprotection (before the advent of the edit filter, my talk page was semiprotected for months because of this same kind of vandalism). I agree that the filter message can and should be changed, and I will do that. I will also be more diligent about reviewing the filter log and responding to legitimate messages from IPs. NawlinWiki (talk) 14:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
      • That doesn't really address my question about server load. I'm also still not persuaded that the edit filter should be used for long-term non-transparent semi-protection of single user talk pages. Is there a body of policy developing anywhere about what constitutes acceptable use of the edit filter tools? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
        • This is a very light-load filter. "On average, its run time is 1.19ms, and it consumes 1 condition of the condition limit." NawlinWiki (talk) 17:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
          • I agree that, at a minimum, a more descriptive reason needs to be given. I could have given up after the first attempt. False accusations of vandalism are unacceptable, whether auto-generated or personal. This little problem has now taken up waaaay too much time by far too many editors that could have been better spent improving the encyclopedia - and isn't that why we're supposed to be here? 98.248.33.198 (talk) 18:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
            • Which, honestly, you could have prevented as well by simply registering an account and then leaving a message on the talk page in question. Yes yes, anon editing is set in stone and all, but sometimes a bit of practicality can help alleviate a problem. Tarc (talk) 18:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
              • I'm amused that this is being turned into my problem because I choose not to use a registered account. It's not. It's a problem that any IP editor could face. If you wish to debate the merits of allowing IP edits perhaps the Village Pump would be a better forum. 98.248.33.198 (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
                • Nobody has asserted a problem which is suitable for ANI review. There is a legitimate abuse issue. If NawlinWiki does something specific which requires a notification and you can't post on their talk, post here or find a logged in active admin to relay the message. I recommend someone close the thread unless a specific ANI-worthy issue is brought forwards. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
                  • So it shall be written. So it shall be done. --Jayron32 19:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Minor's Personal Information

Resolved

 – Appropriate actions taken. MuZemike 16:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Help needed to clean up hoax entries

Resolved

 – No admin action requested.  Sandstein  16:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Some help please to clean up hoax entries in Wikipedia.

I refer interested people to Hungry Beast (née Urban myth study (media hoax September 2009)).

Some editors have already cleaned up a few of the noted Wikipedia entries, but there are more to be done.

Can someone check to see if there are more entries from other IPs or named editors ?

I would start to do the cleanups, but I have run out of "Wikitime" for the time being (and can only dial in at less than 30kbs so it takes me forever to do anything).

I think this needs to be cleaned up before it gets a life of its own ?

Ronnam (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, this page is only for requests to administrators. Cleaning up articles does not normally require administrator action. To find out what you can do, please see the resources at WP:CLEANUP.  Sandstein  16:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Another legal threat.

Resolved

 – Blocked for 31 hours for vandalism (not for legal threats). MuZemike 16:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Look at this diff. This pretty much falls under WP:LEGAL. ConCompS (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• Is that the diff you meant? It just looks like random vandalizing to me. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
• No, it doesn't. There's not a scintilla of a mention of litigation there. It's just a vandal frustrated that xyr vandalism keeps being reverted. The next step after revert is ignore. And ponder the evident irony. Uncle G (talk) 15:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
• But in the notice, he changed it up to say:

  "Whoever keeps fixing this article needs to kill themselves. No one cares about your Wiki-life."

• This is serious stuff. Any long-term block from an admin anytime soon? ConCompS (talk) 15:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • It's not serious, it's standard vandalism, and I've blocked for 31 hours. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • It's only serious if you take it seriously, and don't ponder the evident irony, as I suggested above. There's no need to long-term block some random dynamically assigned IP address belonging to ThePlanet when there's no evidence that there's a future long term pattern of events that can be prevented, no evidence that this even will be the vandal's IP address for long, and there is on the contrary evidence from the changes in the edits that the vandal has already given up, and will only return if xe sees you making a mountain out of this molehill. What part of "ignore" is hard, here? Ignore it! Uncle G (talk) 16:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks anyway. ConCompS (talk) 16:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

User:WillOakland

Resolved

 – Indef-blocked as sock of banned Gazpacho (talk · contribs).  Sandstein  16:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I have been watching an edit war over the article Ian Halperin, a man who in December 2008 predicted that Michael Jackson had only 6 months to live, over the past few days, though the edit war goes back about a month. From what I can tell, it seems that WillOakland (talk · contribs) refuses to believe that we should source certain pieces of information, and is edit warring with Cirt (talk · contribs) to keep them out.[175][176][177] Oakland, who was blocked for two weeks as part of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/WillOakland/Archive, admits to being a banned sockpuppeteer[178], and seems to have not reformed on that matter. After his block, he used a sockpuppet[179] to evade the block; that sockpuppet had previously been used to vandalize.[180][181] I warned Oakland to discuss the proposed changes on the talk page, seeing how he had just been blocked over disruptive editing on that article[182], but he simply removed my comment[183], started an incivil discussion with Cirt that was doomed to go nowhere[184] and ignored several other warnings that asked him to follow WP:V.[185] I am bringing this to the community for further discussion; as a new administrator, I feel the community should review the disruptive behavior of WillOakland (talk · contribs). NW (Talk) 15:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I am unaware of any Wikipedia policy that allows new blocks to be applied for the same past offenses (real or, as in this case, imagined). I am not currently "banned", as a review of my block log will show. NW needs to focus his request on recent behavior. I have changes that I want to make to the Ian Halperin article. I'm trying to find, emperically, the ones that will be accepted. Cirt's behavior is incomprehensible to me, leaving no basis for discussion. WillOakland (talk) 15:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

According to this diff you admit to being Gazpacho, whose block log looks like this. Unless there are unexplained extenuating circumstances, your current account is a sockpuppet in violation of ban and all of your edits may be reverted by any editor. The recent diffs NuclearWarfare points to are clear instances of blanking vandalism. It mystifies me that you have not been reblocked on this account. Would you please explain the discrepancy? Durova³²⁰ 16:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Given the very recent socking evidenced at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/WillOakland/Archive, and the continued ongoing disruption noted by User:NuclearWarfare, it seems like this user account should be blocked indefinitely. A fresh start might be possible later if the user refrains from further sock puppetry and disruption. Jehochman ^Talk 16:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

If there were some unusual discussion where he was given permission to restart under a new account I'd be willing to discuss the matter with whoever struck a deal. But it appears to be defiant sockpuppetry in violation of ban, coupled with a return to disruptive behavior. WillOakland claims that one of the site's most productive featured content contributors behaves incomprehensibly, and invites editors to review his current account's block log without comment on his own earlier admission of being a banned user (a post which ended in obscene vulgarity). This looks as open and shut as it gets. Will, if you'd like another chance as an editor please review Wikipedia:Standard offer and get in touch a few months down the road. If you meet its terms I'll initiate your unban discussion myself. But for now, endorsing a reinstatement of the indef. Durova³²⁰ 16:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, since [186] conveniently admits that "I am banned user Gazpacho", I have blocked WillOakland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) indefinitely for block evasion. Any unblock/unban requests should be made with the Gazpacho account, taking into account any disruption caused with this account.  Sandstein  16:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Aidan Pringle recreated

Resolved

 – Speedy deleted by User:NuclearWarfare. MuZemike 16:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Aidan Pringle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was speedily deleted as a hoax. It's now been recreated - although the material originally added has now been blanked. I'm not sure how speedy deletion works, so I've raised the issue here.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Edits of User:Fifelfoo

I would like to request some assistance at article Hungarian Revolution of 1956. The problem is with User:Fifelfoo. Please check older edits and reverts with other editors at this article.

Today he removed referenced content from the article per "it is a primary source" (The 1956 Revolution: a history in documents" written by Csaba Békés, Malcolm Byrne, János Rainer published in 2002 page ref.: 198). After this I added another reference (the official webpage of "THE INSTITUTE FOR THE HISTORY OF THE 1956 HUNGARIAN REVOLUTION" which is sponsored by the Hungarian government and written by scholars. However User:Fifelfoo removed it as non-RS, although that article has 203 references. After this, I reverted it and I added another reference written by Ferenc Glatz, historian, member of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, but User:Fifelfoo removed the references with the comment: "If the Institute was so proud of the content, they would have published it on paper. Cite the paper". With his last edit he taged the references... After I warned him for vandalism, reference removal he called me a vandal...

I checked his userpage ("He researches labour history and socialist history"), talkpage (articles you might like to edit "Structural Marxism") and his contributions (like "Mass killings under Communist regimes") so I think we have a WP:COI, POV and WP:OR here.--B@xter⁹ 16:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to apologise for the removal of the Glatz source edit, it happened accidentally when trying to correct an edit where you added the IRH source and Glatz source at the same time. The IRH source is unacceptable due to SELF and being a non-academic publication of an academic institute (non academic publication modes is where academics put their more curious theories, and scholarship which cannot be known to meet the standards of their scholarly obligations due to lack of peer or scholarly press review). While the IRH is a scholarly institute, it isn't a scholarly press. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:29, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of the content dispute and the dispute over what constitutes verifiable references/citations, these two editors — Baxter9 and Fifelfoo — are engaged in an edit war. I was going to place {{3RR}} warnings — a number that they have both exceeded — on their talk pages, but since it has escalated to ANI, I was not sure if that would still be appropriate. Further, the editor who filed the ANI complaint did not place a notice on the other editor’s talk page, so I have taken the liberty of doing so. Finally, while reviewing the edit war between these two editors, I noticed the edits of a third, brand new editor — Tyrker — who has edited only on this article. I reverted one of his edits as it deleted material accompanied by a verifiable reference/citation, a deletion done without an explanation. —  SpikeToronto  18:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

 Question: Is Fifelfoo correct that only documents that have been published in physical (i.e., paper) form may be cited on Wikipedia, notwithstanding that copies may be available on the Internet? In other words, is Fifelfoo correct that any source published solely on the Internet, regardless of how reputable the academic institution that web-published it may be, cannot be cited? What then of such notable sources as The New England Journal of Medicine, or The New York Times, that sometimes have internet-only articles/essays/editorials? As I understand it, Fifelfoo, in his edit summaries, is saying that an Internet source can only be cited if it is merely reprinting a paper-based publication. By that logic, The Huffington Post could never be cited, nor any of the myriad websites maintained by politicians and pundits. I believe that this issue lies at the crux of this dispute and the answer to this question is vital to the nature of sources cited throughout Wikipedia given that Internet-only sources are found throughout its millions of articles. —  SpikeToronto  18:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

That is patently not true. reliable sources may be print-only, web-only, or print-reproduced-on-web. There are lots of sources on the web that are unreliable, but not because they are on the web. Are you sure that is what Fifelfoo is claiming? Could you include a diff that shows where he claims that only sources that appeared first in print can be counted as reliable? Without an actual diff, it is hard to understand if your characterization of his arguements are accurate. IF he is making that arguement, he is wrong. However, I don't know that he is actually making that arguement unless I can see the diffs myself. --Jayron32 19:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Jayron, he actually says it twice both times, in edit summaries. If you bring up the history of the page you can see the two comments - the diffs are already cited above. He also has some other strange views - you can't cite old documents "The following source is unacceptable (non-RS) due to age:" you can't cite textbooks "Requires verification that its not a textbook / textbook publisher:" and you can't cite anything that Fifelfoo thinks wasn't written by the right kind of historian "The following sources are unacceptable (non-RS) as they are not the work of historians, and thus produce the SYNTHESIS problem:" Oh, and you can't use any primary sources. (all of these are in his long section about FA on the talkpage, which he seems to have posted more or less all in one lump, sorry) Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

COMMENT I think that it is a great shame that one of the few featured articles on Wikipedia is currently bogged down in an edit war. A quick resolution of the core issue between these two editors — what constitutes verifiable references/citations — can bring this to an end. —  SpikeToronto  18:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

My concern is that this is an editor with a unique perspective of what constitutes verifiable references/citations and that he may begin to undo articles throughout Wikipeida based on that unique perspective if he is not made more familiar with Wikipedia’s position in this regard. The probability of this is all the greater given his position statements made both in his edit summaries and on his user page, as Elen of the Roads correctly pointed out. —  SpikeToronto  20:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Further to the third editor in the mix, would it be appropriate to use CheckUser to determine if s/he is a sock puppet of one of the two editors engaged in the edit war? —  SpikeToronto  20:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment: I made 2 reverts, not more which is not 3RR. One of the reverts is a "revert of vandalism" (reference removal) which per wikipedia 3RR rule doesnt count, so actually I made 1 revert. (my first edit, added 1 reference, my second etit, 1th revert, added another reference, not a revert, my second revert, no more)

"A quick resolution of the core issue between these two editors — what constitutes verifiable references/citations — can bring this to an end" No, it wont. Because actually I am not involved in this and I am not interested in this topic. But other editors are. As the member of wikiproject Hungary I was informed about this, and I only stoped at the article to check things. Because every Hungarian knows that Corvin-köz was a major battleground, It was easy to find a reliable source. So I checked my books, and I added 1 reliable reference which was removed. Thats all. But the point is what Elen of the Roads said above: Fifelfoo rules this article and removes what he doesnt like. As I mentioned above, his first move was, to challange the new reference...--B@xter⁹ 20:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Baxter, I want to make sure this is clear, you are saying that in addition to the issue which Elen of the Roads and I have raised regarding Fifelfoo’s interpretation of WP:RS, there is a WP:OWN issue vis-à-vis this editor? —  SpikeToronto  20:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This is the first time when I "met" Fifelfoo, so I dont know his edit pattern, but it is clear to me, that this "style" of editing (this source is not good bla..bla..bal..that source is not -RS..bla...bla..bla..) embarrass and frightens away users who want to make constructive edits. This is some sort of ownership. (from OWN: "If you find that the editor continues to be hostile...or wages revert wars...A common response by a primary editor confronted with ownership behavior is to threaten to leave the project..." I am sure, that primary editors will leave this article if this continues... Just check this revision history and comments...)--B@xter⁹ 20:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

+:Furthermore, I find it interesting that -it seems to be- that this user knows everything about wiki rules, including "how to cite your sources" and he also gives advices, but when it is about the victims of the revolution, he quickly forgets about this and he removes the content instead of using {{cn}} although this event has its own article on the Hungarian wikipedia.--B@xter⁹ 21:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I would strongly appreciate it if you didn't grossly mischaracterise my edits. Citation needed is not an appropriate on a Feature Article, think about why. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

So now you’re adding point of view to the allegations? Thus, the issues are: WP:RS, WP:OWN, and WP:NPOV. I have to be honest, while all of these are important, because the editor in question’s position regarding verifiable references/citations is so unique, I think that the WP:RS dimension of this ANI is the single most important issue for the Administrators to resolve. It goes to the very heart of the Wikipedia project! —  SpikeToronto  22:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe SpikeToronto is a neutral editor acting in good faith here. Managing to mischaracterise RS so rapidly in relation to a feature article, and "helpfully" summarising my position for me. Could you not put words into my mouth, thanks.

The Institute of Revolutionary History is a credible academic institute in Hungary. The Other user is attempting to cite a chronology from their website. Academic units draw a rather sharp distinction between academic publications, and non academic publications. Similarly, Historians do not publish in a chronology mode. IRH publishes, regularly. Additionally, as the document is in Hungarian, verification options go to machine translation because it isn't the product of a scholarly peer reviewed text. FA criteria involve a higher sourcing demand than start articles. Part of this demand is that the best kind of RS be used. Interestingly the best kind of RS are available, and the other editor made use of an acceptable text: one published by the Hungarian academy in a scholarly publishing mode.

Additionally, I do not appreciate the allegations of editing in bad faith because of my article interest. I suggest people look at my edit history.

The article is currently in Feature Article review because of major sourcing issues (it is constructed out of a primary source, and does not follow the standard scholarly discourse, instead being a SYN of various primary sources).

I find it a shame that a feature article on a non-Anglo/Western European history topic, which has been extensively written about in the scholarly press, is cited out of spurious ephemera and primary sources. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Ownership, I found a Featured Article with some very very disturbing sourcing, which fails to cite the major scholarly works, and is overly reliant on a UN report that drew from about 110 refugee respondents. So I laid out the problem on the talk page, and requested an article review. Yes, that's ownership, to establish the encyclopedic debate to move forward on a topic.

Regarding the perverse suggestions of bias / involvement because of my decisions to edit certain articles, I suggest people look at my editorial involvement at Mass killings under Communist regimes which has turned the article around through a slow consensus building process. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I do believe this is all to do with it being a featured article, and Fifelfoo's view of what is and isn't acceptable on a featured article - which is kind of barse ackwards to my way of thinking. Fifelfoo says above that the use of citation required templating is not appropriate on a Featured article, use of machine translation not appropriate, primary sources not appropriate, wrong kind of historian not appropriate etc etc. Wrong way round surely. Find an article that has perfect sourcing, grammar, layout or whatever is required to meet the FA criteria, and put an FA sticker on it. Not, put the sticker on it whatever state it is in, and then start chopping out stuff that doesn't meet your singular view. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Since I have never laid eyes on the article in question before today, and never edited it before today, I believe that Fifelfoo will not be able to make out his claim of bias on my part. Where I do have bias is in adhering to WP’s guidelines regarding verifiable references/citations. Perhaps the reason Fifelfoo singled me out for an accusation is because of my zealous request here for Administrator involvement to clarify this issue. Fifelfoo’s interpretation of verifiable references/citations is truly unique. I fear its taking hold of WP. Should the prevalence of this unique view grow, I fear the undoing of articles, especially those with Feature Article status. When can we expect an issue that goes to the heart of each and every article on Wikipedia to have some Administrator involvement and be resolved? —  SpikeToronto  00:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear Elen. The Article is currently a FA. What would you have us do when non-FA content is inserted into an FA? The article is at FAR, because I am deeply concerned that its sourcing quality and coverage do not meet current FA standards.Fifelfoo (talk) 01:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Please note that Elen of the Roads’s first comment (way) above was inserted between what was a contiguous posting of mine. Thus, my COMMENT (way) above was meant to be immediately following my QUESTION (way) above. The COMMENT was not added after Elen of the Roads’s first comment; it preceded it. (See this edit.) —  SpikeToronto  00:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. First post was responding to Jayron, not to anything SpikeToronto said. The timestamps should show the sequence. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:14, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Statement of Fact

Hungarian Revolution of 1956 is currently a feature article. Hungarian Revolution of 1956 is under Wikipedia:Featured_article_review here Wikipedia:Featured_article_review#Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956. Featured article review is an improvement process. I nominated Hungarian Revolution of 1956 for feature article review as a result of significant sourcing problems, which I raised on Talk:Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and at the Featured Article Review. User:Baxter9 and User:Fifelfoo disagree about some of the contents of Hungarian Revolution of 1956

This are the facts as I see them. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

My statement of the case

As a current featured article, new material added should meet the Feature Article criteria for sourcing, including the highest form of reliability, verifiability, and avoid being Primary or Tertiary sources. User:Baxter9 is expanding Hungarian Revolution of 1956 in useful ways, but many of Baxter9's edits have been inadequately sourced. In my opinion a primary source like Békés and others The 1956 Revolution: a history in documents (2002) [indicated above by Baxter9], is unacceptable. Creating an article from Primary sources is SYN/OR. Doing this to a featured article is immediately removable. Regarding the Corvin Alley fighters, Baxter9 has been attempting to use a webpage from the IRH. The IRH as an academic institute has the capacity to publish scholarly sources in a scholarly manner. By citing an IRH article not published in a scholarly manner, and one (which to my pitiful Hungarian) is a chronology of events, rather than narrative history (the standard Academic form of history), it is not RS. I removed this source and the uncited sentence. Baxter9 then provided a superior citation (in addition to the poor citation), one produced by the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, but unfortunately failed to provide a full academic citation (using the template is not the issue). Baxter9's citation was not verifiable as it did not allow other Wikipedians to find the material Baxter9 was citing: "Ferenc Glatz, MTA; Kornélia Burucs, Zsuzsa Frisnyák, Éva Kovács, János Pótó. A magyarok krónikája. [where]: Magyar Könyvklub. p. 690. ISBN 9632270703." is still not a verifiable citation, but its sufficient to indicate that the material is sourced. A citation requires attribution to the specific Author involved, I doubt that a work of this length with 5 personal authors and an institutional author is a single monograph: its a work with chapters individually authored and an editor. The provided citation doesn't indicate the English language title translation (a common courtesy). A machine translation "The Chronicle of the Hungarians" (In English Chronicle has poor connotations in disciplinary history, I suspect the machine translator is poor in this regard) indicates that this isn't a specialist work as a whole on 1956: a non-optimum citation. Provide the chapter, for instance out of 700+ pages, its likely that 690 is the Hungarian nation around 1956... its likely the actual chapter is a 56 chapter. [This is exactly why I get tetchy about low quality sources: it breaks VERIFIABILITY].Fifelfoo (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

In relation to Baxter9's content. Claiming Corvin alley is the most esteemed group of fighters was a long bow to draw (Csepel and the Hungarian student/youth militia which briefly retook Parliament square are clear counter examples). Claiming it was the strongest fortified position is much less contentious, though I still want to see a correct full citation for the work cited. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding NPOV. I demand Featured Article grade RS. This means the best kind of RS available. This, as an academic topic, does have the best kind of RS available: RS from the academic community produced in the peer review and scholarly publisher mode. We don't need to settle for anything less, and producing a history not from the RS secondary sources is SYN. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding OWN. My editorial involvement has been to revert Baxter9's uncited, or unacceptably cited contributions; and, when Baxter9 presented cited and RS cited contributions, to not revert. I am currently waiting on a large scale review, and have not edited the article substantively while I'm awaiting that Review process to conclude. I do not believe this is OWN: I like Baxter9's content additions. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding NPOV in relation to my editorial outlook and article involvement. This is a disgusting assertion about my editing and I would like any people who made it to retract it. I encourage people to peruse my editorial history in this matter Fifelfoo (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Internet sources. The issue isn't the modality (trees versus bits), as much as, IRH does not publish in the scholarly mode online, and is not a scholarly publishing house in itself. Citing JSTOR is fine. Citing a SELF published website, where an academic institute is not publishing in its academic mode, isn't. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, & I know it's a side issue, citing JSTOR is not fine. You cite the journal in which the work was actually published, and then add the convenience link to JSTOR where you read it & where people with access to it can read it also. Essentially everything in JSTOR was first in print, and has print as the version of record. DGG ( talk ) 03:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree, I was gesturing at the difference between Scholarly Publication, and mere utterances of a scholarly research unit. A better example would be that insta-peer review archive that physicists / mathematicians have established as an example of an online-only scholarly peer reviewed non-traditional mode. That's a scholarly publication. Fred's Maths Blog on Department of Foo at University of Bar isn't scholarly publication, even though Fred could well be a scholar, and his blog could be wonderfully scholarly. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Fifelfoo! This is what I wanted. I misread you as saying that something published only on the Internet, and never in paper form, was unacceptable. This was a problem for me because, in my world, there are some medical publications that, while peer-reviewed, only publish certain material online. Plus, some of the data presentations (e.g., charts, graphs, etc.) are, in essence, presentations of primary material as they are mere statements of clinical results without analysis, the analysis being in the text. Thus, I (mis)took your position to be that in a wikiarticle of, for instance, a medical nature, a wikieditor would not be able to present the chart — because it is primary data — nor could s/he present the analysis of the data since it was never published in hardcopy form, notwithstanding its having been peer reviewed prior to its online publication. Thank you for straightening this out for me! —  SpikeToronto  04:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Glad we reached the same page about trees/bytes versus scholarly/non-scholarly modes of publishing. PRIMARY materials are no good for verification and they are unreliable sources. PRIMARY materials are good for illustration, and for humanising, or explaining reliable sources. Lets imagine three scenarios: Sue conducts research "On the horrible disease of Wikipedia editing" published in the peer reviewed scholarly journal with a high citation count (we're talking medical science here) "Journal of Encyclopedia related Medicine". Sue's journal article includes a chart, "Data on Wikipedia editing diseases". If you cite Sue's chart, you're reusing PRIMARY materials. If you cite Sue's findings that's great. If you cite Sue's findings, and illustrate them with the chart, that's great and better reading. Primary materials should not be cited for Verification purposes. Articles should not be written out of primary sources. Articles should be written out of secondary sources. Where Primary sources are appropriate they should be used to illustrate: much like graphics and photos illustrate but do not convey the basis of an article (generally, there's always an exception). Fifelfoo (talk) 05:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

My statements in relation to SpikeToronto's involvement here

I perceive, very strongly SpikeTomato'sSpikeToronto's [no offence intended, the colour red must have triggered it 04:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)] question above to be a mischaracterisation of the issue, which he presented before I had an opportunity to respond. That's within acceptable behaviour, but a bit uncivil. More worrying is the fact that people expect low quality RS to be acceptable on Featured Articles. History as a discipline does not esteem textbooks, works published 60+ years ago (generally, some specific examples) due to disciplinary change. History as a discursive discipline constantly improves its analysis, and old works are like old science: built on poor premises and poor evidence when compared to that available today. This, "Baxter, I want to make sure this is clear, you are saying that in addition to the issue..." "So now you're adding point of view to the allegations..." is whipping up a dispute, rather than working towards consensus. I don't believe I can discuss this in good faith with you, as you've displayed an interest in extending the dispute rather than working towards consensus. (I still believe I can work with Baxter9 and Elen of the Roads regarding this; we may disagree but I feel confident in their attitude towards this incident being one of consensus building. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Fifelfoo, I am not interested in the article on the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, per se. I truly hope it maintains its Featured Article status and that you and the other editors achieve consensus. My primary interest in this ANI is your interpretation — as stated in your edit summaries, on your user page, and here in your postings to this thread — regarding what sources are and are not acceptable. It appears to be a restatement, a rewriting, of the Wikipedia rules, guidelines, and customs regarding reliable sources. Thus, in addition to wanting the article to maintain its FA status and for a consensus amongst it editors to be achieved, I await a position from the Administrators on the verifiable references/citations issue since it has ramifications far beyond the article in question. If your interpretation of the reliable sources rules/guidelines is correct — and it may very well be — then it will have a dramatic impact on those of us who do recent changes patrol. That is why I think it is one of the most important matters raised at ANI recently. And, you should want this assessment from the Administrators too, Fifelfoo, since it will provide an extremely useful clarification vis-à-vis reliable sources with which we can all ensure compliance throughout Wikipedia. —  SpikeToronto  04:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

It isn't the administrator's job to judge verifiability, reliability, or citations: they are, like so much else, a content dispute. See WP:RSN for sourcing disputes. For Primary sources, see WP:RS#Overview "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." For my general frustration with people using primary and tertiary sources to write articles, using edited collections of primary sources, using unacceptable material claimed as scholarship, failing to reference the major works of a field, and picking the eyes out of unscholarly utterances indexed by google scholar, books or search; and for the poor quality of articles resulting, see the frustrations arising in this dispute (though the other editor is not an example of the problem, as he is expanding a section of the article that has been omitted as the article was written synthetically from primaries). Fifelfoo (talk) 04:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Source quality requirements in Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:Featured article criteria's 1c), which does not require a particularly hard headed conclusion to draw that for an academic topic "high-quality reliable sources" are works produced by academics in the mode of academic publication. This is a higher hurdle than non Featured articles. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Not sure where you get this from - being a featured article does *not* prevent the addition of non-academic references, *any* reliable source may be added. --Cameron Scott (talk) 07:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

<quote> Wikipedia:Featured article criteria 1)(c) well-researched: ...Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources</quote> I suppose you can add any old reliable source if you like. But claims can't be supported by any old reliable source, they can be supported only by a "high quality" reliable source. What do you think high quality reliable sources mean in relation to articles in academic disciplines? Fifelfoo (talk) 07:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You see, this is back to the barse ackward thing. The standard is that articles which ARE GOOD ENOUGH to be featured articles WILL contain high quality sources - not that ONCE an article is FA, other sources MAY NO LONGER be used. I think it would be helpful to clear up whether the consensus is that Fifelfoo is right in seeking to remove all content and sources which do not meet his criteria for scholarly sources (which does not I think make it into the requirement for FA, or constitute the only requirement for RS, although it is mentioned there). I see no reason to exclude for example university level teaching materials, which Fifelfoo specifically objects to, reliable news sources such as the BBC (which ditto), or well substantiated primary sources where they are not being used in a way which violates SYNTHESIS (ditto with a vengeance).Elen of the Roads (talk) 08:47, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

"well substantiated primary sources where they are not being used in a way which violates SYNTHESIS" are not used to substantiate claims, see RS. University level teaching material in discourse based fields, ie, US style synthetic textbooks, are either source books which contain the occasional scholarly essay, the essay is generally citeable through its original scholarly publication, or primary which cannot substantiate claims per RS. The BBC is not a historian, and can't generate an acceptable high quality RS narrative because its not a historian. What do you call a feature article that is allowed to no longer meet featured article criteria? I think your attitude is ass backwards, using second rate narratives synthesised out of first year texts, primaries, and newspaper articles is a great way to produce original research which bears no relationship to the scholarly discourses that mark out the field. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User removing threads on my talk page without consent.

Hi, I have a small query with regards to user talk pages. Am I right to assume that it is an offence for another user to remove threads from my own user talk page, without my consent/permission? If this is correct, then I would like to put forward 3 pieces of evidence for viewing. I had made 4 previous requests to a user to avoid any future contact in order to prevent any further antagonising situations. The user, who's name appears in the next set of evidence, ignored this request as of 22:03, 26 September 2009, by posting the following thread... 1. In reply, as of 14:19, 27 September 2009, I kindly asked the user, for a 5th time, to leave me alone, as per 2. This user (who coincidently is also a member of the admin team) then deletes the thread as of 15:05, 27 September 2009, as per 3. I value opinion with regards to this matter, and I'm willing to cooperate wherever necessary. Kindest regards, Pr3st0n (talk) 17:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Frank's retraction seems entirely appropriate to me. His edit summary captures it well. He made the original post in good faith, found it to be unwelcome, so cleaned up after himself. No further action indicated, I think. --AndrewHowse (talk) 17:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)He appears to have been trying to do what you wanted him to do, and disengage. If you want that thread back on your talk page, simply put it back. I can pretty much guarantee that he won't remove it now that he knows you want it to stay. Is there any remaining issue this approach wouldn't solve? --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

What is it you actually want doing? He removed the thread with a summary that stated "Removing thread. My apologies; I see it was not appreciated after you made it clear you wanted him to leave you alone. so em.. what would admin action prevent from happening in future (as admin action is intended to prevent future problems but punish for the past)? --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I fully understand the post was made in good faith; no dispute made there. Although wouldn't it make sense that if a user made previous requests to avoid contact in order to prevent any antagonising situations, then that request should be adhered to, right? I apologise if Frank feels that the comment was "unwelcome", but that still doesn't justify in deleting from a user talk page with that users consent first! I feel this might be a catch-22 scenario. I'm just after clarification as to whether any procedures may have been over-looked. Wanting to cover my back that's all. Thank you for the help! (P.S. I will be away from my computer for the next 6 hours, as I'm working at the pub tonight - but I will return to check the status of this) Pr3st0n (talk) 17:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I just want to make sure that everything is in order that's all. I understand and respect the comments from yourselves in regards to this matter. A little confusion though, as common sense would show that a request to be left alone was ignored by the posting of another thread (which later gets deleted). Pr3st0n (talk) 17:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Its a shame that Pr3ston and Frank have had a bad introduction to each other. There was a messy RfA, and some copyright stuff was brought up. I'd like to reassure Pr3ston that -really, truly- Frank is one of the good guys. He was offering helpful advice. And now he knows his advice was unwelcome he'll leave you alone. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 23:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Once editor A has told editor B to stay off his page, editor B should take editor A's page off his watch list and make no edits whatsoever to editor A's page. Editor A is free to retain or delete editor B's comments at his discretion. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Request for blocking of IP address 94.193.210.12

This IP Address has persistently vandalised the page St John Fisher Catholic High School (Dewsbury) since the 20th of September. I personally am very annoyed with this as I spent great lengths of time repairing the page after vandalism from other users, and would like to request that you block this IP address for 2 weeks. -- Tallen90 (talk) 18:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the IP hasn't edited since 26 September, 2 days ago, and before that on the 23rd. I appreciate how annoying vandalism can be, but it looks like it's sporadic at best, so there isn't anything for an admin to do at this point. I'll add the article to my watchlist; if the IP vandalizes again, give it a final warning (since the one you issued was Level 3). If they vandalize after that, report them to WP:AIV, which is better equipped to deal with simple vandalism. Thanks, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 18:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Request for help in Michael Powell (director)

Resolved

 – Semi-protected, and blocked puppets.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

A series of meat, and puppet attacks have taken place on an issue of nationality. Bzuk (talk) 18:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC).

Whether your version is more accurate or not, you are currently in violation of WP:3RR. Do not revert again: discuss it on the talk page. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I've blocked the puppets and semi-protected the page: hopefully that will give you time to make a case for your preferred version on the talkpage. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Abuse of barnstars

The user Shivlingam seems to have awarded himself every possible barnstar; even on created for Jimbo himself. Is there something that should be done about this, or can anyone award themselves any barnstar as and when they wish? ~~ Dr Dec (Talk) ~~ 19:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

P.S. The rollbacker Redtigerxyz tried to remove them but Shivlingam just reinstated them. ~~ Dr Dec (Talk) ~~ 19:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

So what? It looks silly and is obviously disingenuous -- so, let's let this editor make it clear to the community that this is his/her standard for behavior. We'll know this editor has matured more toward the community's standards when he/she removes them him/herself. --EEMIV (talk) 19:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Barnsars are serious business after all. Really, what should've drawn more attention is this. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Hrm, then there's the fact that he signs posts as "owner wikipedia" (e.g. at Wikipedia:Help desk#date format) and creates subpages like User:Shivlingam/owner WIKIPEDIA. I think someone's got a crush. Tarc (talk) 19:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Not an administrative issue. Suggested solution: add trout and cluebat to the user's awards. Durova³²⁰ 20:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

What he did with the barnstars was copying the code from User:Jimbo Wales/Barnstars (including the comments at the top of the page) to his own talk page. See also this response to ukexpat's attempt to get him to stop posting unhelpful comments to the Help Desk. All in all does not look like somebody who is here to write encyclopedic articles, but so far his behaviour is more nonsensical than actually disruptive. --bonadea contributions talk 20:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I've removed them. If the user wants to award themself barnstars, they can go nuts, but they should not copy others' barnstars - they are signed and would misrepresent the positions of the users who granted them. –xeno^talk 20:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Durova³²⁰ 20:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I also agree with Bonadea that this user might not be here for the right reasons. –xeno^talk 20:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

If problems worsen that can be dealt with. A lot of people make a few missteps at the beginning. When those aren't too serious they get a few chances. Durova³²⁰ 20:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Hate to have a bloodhound-like nose for ducks and socks, but something isn't right when the user's first edit consists of adding a {{who}} tag. However, I've seen this before, so it is possible that I may be overlooking this, but the other edits just cannot be ignored. MuZemike 20:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Also welcomed him/herself.[187] Has been editing Saffron terror.[188][189][190][191] On 20 June 2009 Nishkid64 semiprotected that article with the summary "editing by banned users".[192] Shortly before that, an IP who edited the page was tagged as a possible Hkelkar sock.[193][194] Would someone who knows the background on that situation please weigh in? I'm unfamiliar with Hkelkar and can't really assess whether this is a lead or a red herring. Eyebrow-raising, though. Durova³²⁰ 21:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• LOL. Not Hkelkar, not with those comments about Modi. Quite the opposite, it would appear. But still hilarious. Moreschi (talk) 23:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the clarification. Durova³²⁰ 03:25, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Legalnerd

Resolved

Legalnerd is attempting to information to the Mahmudiyah killings article [195], which on the surface appears fine. Except they are sourcing http://trialcoverage.blogspot.com. So, I reverted their edits, left a welcome message on their talk page and explained why I reverted them. I'm assuming Legalnerd missed my explanation and then inquired on the article's talk page on to why the edits were revereted. I reverted and explained again. Legalnerd continued doing the edits and adding the same source. I left another mesage on their talk page and then reverted. Six minutes later they started again. I'm assuming the user is acting in good faith, but to complicate things not only am "involved" from previous edits on the article, I'm at 3RR, and I can't currently view the blog to see if it's spam or copyright (other than not being a reliable source), so could someone else take another look at this? Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 19:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course, as I was writing this, he responded on his talk page. I think we're okay here. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 19:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

User:CobraBot

This bot has been adding inappropriate links to Template:Infobox book in articles about books, specifically adding OCLC links to articles that already have ISBNs. These links are redundant, as the OCLC links to Worldcat, which is already one of the options given by the ISBN link via book sources, which gives the reader a choice of where to locate a book. The documentation for Template:Infobox book says "use OCLC when the book has no ISBN", whereas this bot is specifically designed to add an OCLC when there is an ISBN. The approval process for this bot didn't have any discussion about whether it conforms to policy and guidelines. For a full discussion please refer to yesterday's conversation between User:Gavin.collins and the bot operator here (which the bot operator deleted without the issue being resolved) and the further conversation between the bot operator and myself today. User:CobraBot has refused to stop the bot's operations on the basis of these requests, so I would request that the bot be blocked pending a proper discussion of whether its actions are desirable, as did not take place before it was approved. I'm not sure about where this further discussion should take place, as the bot approval pages seem to have very low traffic, so would like some advice from readers of this page as to where this should happen. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I this this is a serious issue because of the huge scale of the linkspamming. I have raised this issue both with Cybercobra and I am disappointed that he has not responded to my concerns. I have also raised this issue at Village Pump, as I am doubtful about the benefit (if any) from using Worldcat as a cataloguing tool. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 22:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

For the sake of completeness: my most recent response to Gavin. --Cybercobra (talk) 22:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Also note that as of slightly before the start of this thread the bot was stopped for unrelated reasons. Upon notification of this thread, the bot was marked inactive (see [196], [197]) --Cybercobra (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I note that User:Cybercobra commented that the bot was being suspended "pending an WP:ANI thread"[198]. If that was changed to "pending a much wider consensus that this is an appropriate task for a bot than the one person who approved it" I would be willing to close the discussion here, because it would not need administrator action such as blocking. I think that there's a much wider issue at stake here about the fact that one editor can put up a bot for approval, and it can get passed by one other editor because it works, without any consideration as to whether there is any consensus about whether the bot's actions are acceptable. At least if we are going to allow that to happen we should have an understanding that a bot operator should suspend a bot, pending discussion, in response to a good faith request by an established editor. WP:BRD is a well-known adage, but, when a bot is doing lots of bold edits it's impossible for a human to maintain the same pace to revert. Phil Bridger (talk) 23:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The Bot Owners Noticeboard which is usually monitored by a large constuim of bot owners as well as members of the Bot Approval Group might be a better starting location for this discussion since the bot would of had to been of approved for this task before it was ran. Peachey88 ^{(Talk Page · Contribs)} 07:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Just to repeat more widely something I already mentioned to Phil, the Bot Policy suggests Wikipedia talk:Bots/Requests for approval as a possible venue for discussion regarding the bot task. --Cybercobra (talk) 08:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't BAG can be of help, because I don't think WP:BAG operate provide any form of governance over bot activities; there is an oversight issue that now needs to be resolved here, as the bot's behaviour is controlled by an individual editor, Cybercobra. He may have obtained clearance to create all these direct links to to Worldcat from BAG, but it appears that the issue of linkspamming was not either not considered or understood by BAG in this case. Cyberbot may have created hundreds of links in good faith, but the current consensus on Wikipedia is that templates, categories and other forms of anonymous solicitation to use a specific external source to expand an article are inappropriate. There is no hard rule on when this crosses over from being a legitimate attempt to improve the article into being internal spam, but I think the mistake lies in linking directly to the Woldcat site, even if it is well intentioned.
I propose that not only should linking to the Worldcat website cease, but that it should also be rolled back by removing all of the links that have been created to date. I am not saying that the Worldcat number should not be used or added to articles (if that is of any benefit?); rather I am proposing that the hundreds of direct links to their site be removed. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 10:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Richard Gere and the gerbil

Immediate attention is required to this. WebHamster created this page, since consensus is blocking him from adding this bullshit to the Richard Gere article. This is a blatant WP:BLP issue. I nom'ed for CSD, but don't know how that'll turn out. Crotchety Old Man (talk) 20:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You really shouldn't call edits bullshit. Joe Chill (talk) 20:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, these edits pretty much are bullshit. Nothing bad about the person making them, but the edits themselves are utter WP:BLP-violating shit. --Jayron32 20:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me. Gentlemen, this is a public noticeboard. There are children and ladies here. Would you please mind your motherfucking language? Durova³²⁰ 21:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Haha. That's classic. I'm gonna go kegel now. Law _{type! snype?} 21:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Only allowable if you upload educational video. ;) Durova³²⁰ 21:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a little edit reversal going on now at the Richard Gere article here WebHamster has inserted a link to the gerbil page 4 times now and Crotchety Old Man is removing . Off2riorob (talk) 20:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I've speedied it. It's a BLP nightmare and WebHamster is skating around consensus on the Gere article by creating this one, and adding the link to the hoax page. Law _{type! snype?} 20:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

And under which CSD category did you speedy it? This should be taken to AfD at least. Oh and how about taking COM to task both for not informing me of the CSD request or the not notifying me of this discussion. --WebHamster 20:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)--WebHamster 20:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Under CSD category WP:IAR. This is a clear BLP-violation, and should not remain at Wikipedia under any length of time at all. I endorse Law's deletion of the article. --Jayron32 20:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

How was it a clear BLP issue? It wasn't promulgating the rumour, it was explaining and debunking it. It was adequately referenced and totally neutral. --WebHamster 20:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

G10 ... G3 ... take your pick. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

See WP:BLP, and especially WP:COATRACK, as well as Loaded question and Association fallacy. Even the idea that refuting the rumor is a BLP violation here. "I am here to state that John Doe has never beaten his wife." Use of a denial is not an acceptable means of of sneaking a BLP-violation of this nature into Wikipedia. This is a clear WP:COATRACK issue. Creating an article denying the truth of a rumor is just a backdoor method of getting the rumor exposure at Wikipedia. Somethings are not appropriate to discuss, even if only to deny them, because the mere act of denying gives them too much coverage in itself. --Jayron32 21:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I have left WebHamster a note informing him of this discussion and a 3RR note regarding the edits at Richard Gere. Off2riorob (talk) 20:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Good call. Law _{type! snype?} 20:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I have also left Crotchety Old Man a 3RR note regarding his reversals on Richard Gere. Off2riorob (talk) 20:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Is it worth protecting Richard Gere and the gerbil or would it just lead to Richard Gere and the Gerbil?- Sinneed 20:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

...it would then lead to "Richard Gere and the gerbil named "Bob" (I would assume that a hamster might know the name of a specific gerbil) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Not forgetting The Gerbil and Richard Gere, and countless other permutations. This one can be resolved by dealing with the source of this stuff, but not by trying to swat each fly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to protect it because I'm going to assume that WH will not recreate it. And yes, Jayron was correct. CSD IAR. Law _{type! snype?} 20:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

(ECx3) I already salted those two, but you're right, we could play whack-a-hamster all day. In any event, we don't need articles for these two, but revert me if I erred. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 21:03, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Way to go mate. I knew AGF was total bollocks. --WebHamster 21:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:AGF is not a shield for obviously asinine editing behavior. Tarc (talk) 21:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Such a long word for someone who obviously doesn't understand its meaning. --WebHamster 21:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't agree, WebHamster. But if one person thinks an idea is a good one, someone else will too. I know I intended no assumption of bad faith.- Sinneed 21:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not the first time we've seen childish, ridiculous behavior from WebHamster, right? Anyone got ideas on how to apply some clue? Friday (talk) 21:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

"Backdoor"?? "Asinine"?? Come on, have we not given enough publicity to the supposed location of said gerbil named "Bob"?? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually there's a rumor that OTRS has already received a complaint from "Bob" that we're violating WP:BLH (biographies of living hamsters). Bob has a family and a reputation, after all. Durova³²⁰ 21:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I've added WebHamster to the Twinkle blacklist. This is not vandalism. I'm also thinking that some sort of community restriction may be necessary.--Tznkai (talk) 21:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how such a thing would be worded, other than something vague like "Don't act like a 12-year-old." Would a simple block for edit warring (repeat as needed) be simpler? Friday (talk) 21:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

He's been blocked multiple times already, and just said on his talk page that he ain't changing anytime soon. Crotchety Old Man (talk) 21:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

No editing anything remotely related to a living person?I don't know, the only evidence I have of misbehavior is what I see in front of me, and I can't see me supporting or executing a block based just on a limited bit of childishness. --Tznkai (talk) 21:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Switching back to serious mode. I've defended WebHamster before, but his posts to this thread don't look good. AGF is not a license to fork a BLP violation against consensus, misuse Twinkle, and brush off community concerns. No matter how many jokes are within easy reach, there are basically two rational solutions: either WebHamster accepts the Clue being offered by multiple people and promises not to walk this path again, or else a longer block than previous is appropriate--in the hope that will curb the behavior where persuasion hasn't. This time it isn't an R-rated photo on your userpage, dude. It's about a real human being and a very nasty rumor. Not the place to go when you already have a track record of problems with walking the line of appropriate conduct. Durova³²⁰ 22:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd say it more than satisfies WP:DE at this point. Railing against the man keeping him down and being "blunt" are poor excuses for repeated BLP violations. Tarc (talk) 22:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• Aaaaaaaaaaaand WebHamster told me to "go fuck yourself" after I reverted his attack on Tznkai and warned him for it. → ROUX ₪ 23:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Aw diddums. --WebHamster 23:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

WebHamster needs a time out. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Its worth noting that undoing without comments is reserved for vandalism only as well. I do however, try to avoid blocking people for attacking me, so I will ask another admin to take care of it. I think we are well beyond short blocks, for the record.--Tznkai (talk) 00:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

A habitrail.

• Wow. I was already thinking it was going to be necessary to post to the etiquette noticeboard about WebHamster's conduct at the talk page, but I see WebHamster has created this article against obvious consensus, and has contributed further insults and general incivility on this thread. There's no need to tolerate his behaviour. Final warning then a long block if he still can't stay civil? p.s. I don't want to breach WP:OUTING, but how do we know WebHamster isn't really a self-publicising WebGerbil? Fences&Windows 00:42, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Request for an uninvolved admin: Per this comment, would an uninvolved admin please review the expired and closed RfC (Note my comment at the end relative to the housekeeping archiving of the RfC) on Talk:Richard Gere#Gerbil, initiated here on April 4, 2009, and determine consensus to help simplify the ongoing discussion. Specifically, is the gerbil urban legend as attached to Gere a BLP violation? Thank you. — Becksguy (talk) 03:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I responded to this request here Fritzpoll (talk) 09:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Blocked I have about 0 tolerance for editors that respond to criticism that way. My action is, as always, open for review. Protonk (talk) 05:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

As the editor who deleted the article and admonished for such, would you reconsider the block? Full disclosure here is that I don't adhere to NPA nor CIV blocks. That's not an excuse - but just who I act as an admin. I would cordially ask you to unlblock at consider the backlash was one that was highly charged and emotional. I do not make excuses for the behaviour, as I would as you to unblock and discuss because as I said, CIV and NPA mean naught to me, and I think that WH was just lashing out. I'd honestly like to see a block for a vio of a policy to which I adhere. Law _{type! snype?} 09:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Rbj should receive a pardon

Rbj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Rbj is serving a life sentence in Wiki prison. He was always a valuable contributor to physics articles. It were some disputes on other pages that escalated a lot that caused problems for him. More than two years have passed, these disputes are no longer relevant and I'm sure he has cooled down a long time ago. Count Iblis (talk) 20:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Has he asked for an unblock?

On a side note, I'm not sure why this was added to CAT:TEMP and then deleted... There's a lengthy talk page history that should persist. –xeno^talk 20:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, he was community banned at least partially for anti-Semitic slurs on other editors. I really don't care how good he was at physics, we don't need bigots with anti-Semitic attacks here at all. Finally, there is a strong possibility he's been ban-evading editing under IPs. Back in 3 with links. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 21:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive566#Banned user? where it seems he's been editing, although he was community banned and ArbCom declined his appeal. I've not received an email that he plans to mend his ways or is sorry for the hurt and disruption from before. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 21:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• This thread from AN archive 89 is informative, for those not familiar with this editor. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive89#Rbj_blocked It references an earlier discussion, I'm afraid. He was a real problem while he was here, as evidenced by his 20 blocks. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 22:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

We don't have a Wiki-head of state to issue a Wiki-pardon to declare a person not guilty of a wiki-crime, no matter what a wiki-jury or wiki-judge had to say. There is no wiki-prosecutor to fire, no wiki-police who abused their authority. If Rbj wants to be unblocked, or his ban appealed he can request it like everyone else. Unless of course, Count Iblis knows something we don't.--Tznkai (talk) 22:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, but you could put on a black robe and a wig and we could pretend. :-D KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Rbj has been active on physicsforums for quite some time see here. Physicsforums as a very strict rules against personal attacks, so I think he qualifies for parole because of good behavior. Count Iblis (talk) 01:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:BASC is thattaway. Alternatively, he can post an unblock request on his page, and someone, say you, can bring it to wider community review here. Please ask him not to use the word pardon if possible.--Tznkai (talk) 01:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Has he been editing as an IP or sockpseudonym recently? Can we see a contribution history to examine? I'd be generally opposed to seeing Arbcom imposed restrictions removed by anyone but Arbcom. It is really hard to get productive but abusive editors restrained through Wikipedia dispute resolution. It is even hard to get Arbcom restrictions enforced when you can't find an active administrator who gives a care to look at the issue. I don't know what this users history is, but where is the mea culpa and the outlined plan for self-discipline so the project doesn't have to deal with their previous disruption again? SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 01:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Corruption to the Arbitration/Requests/Case page

Resolved

The last edit shows a dif. which has removed details of one of the other cases currently open, that of Ottava Rima:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&curid=22747298&diff=316762646&oldid=316753906

leaky_caldron (talk) 21:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Reverted already. PhGustaf (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

"For the good of Germany"

A new user keeps blanking several sections of GSG 9 "for the good of Germany". this is their justification, and their promise that they will continue. So far I've given them two vandalism warnings and an explanation that if the government of Germany is concerned, they can take it up with officials of Wikipedia. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Does that diff look like a legal threat to anyone? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope; this is certainly not ANI worthy. After a final warning, take it to AIV. Tan | 39 00:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Fairy Snuff (always did think that was a funny name for a fairy) --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:18, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I thought it was a drug fairies used? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

That could explain a good many things. FAIRY SNUFF:UR DOIN IT RONG! --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

A user who is being disruptive and vows to continue I think gets to skip the queue. We have evidence of disruption and the promise of more.--Crossmr (talk) 00:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User is also apparently interested in gay tourism in Tel Aviv and calling slaughtered Rwandans monkeys, as well as claiming to be part of the German special forces.--Tznkai (talk) 00:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Overall not an asset to the project then? Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I would be curious what would happen if someone asked him a question in German. I am currently not blocking the account out of a totally selfish interest in avoiding an e-mail on the policy implications of discussing the organizational make up of a German special forces unit, but I suppose I will do it later if no one else will.--Tznkai (talk) 01:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Right, so why are we sitting around humming and hawing over it? The guy is obviously here to disrupt, and has promised more...--Crossmr (talk) 01:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted his last run (at 3:09) and gave him a fourth level warning. If he does it again, feel free to block him. hbdragon88 (talk) 03:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

And now I'm going to be reported to the head of Wikipedia. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:29, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm actually going to go with super clueless newbie.--Tznkai (talk) 05:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You're all wimps! I'll go and block him then. (PS - Fairy snuff is an illegal underground movie involving the torture and murder of mystical woodland beings.) Manning (talk) 05:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

It really reminds me of Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters, know what I mean? --John (talk) 05:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Pedsnursing

I'm bringing this here per advice here. This user was previously warned for repeatedly blanking a section of the Doctorate in Nursing page and not engaging on the Talk page. He has now taken to blanking and self-reverting it many times a day in rapid succession. The last 50+ edits to that page are all of this form; see the page history [199]. Attempts to engage in discussion on his Talk page are also blanked. I'm hoping he can be encouraged to stop the repeated self-reverts. JJL (talk) 00:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Are there any useful edits in there? I did not check them all... but I did not spot any. No edit summaries. Lots of chunks being taken out.- Sinneed 00:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The editor does not appear to be here to edit constructively. Repeatedly blanking then reverting the same sections on the same page strikes me as simple game playing, or someone trying to make a WP:POINT. Zero communication. Block and ignore. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 00:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Procedural Note I have informed the user of this thread, on their talk page. Basket of Puppies 01:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks--I placed a notice there when I posted at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts but forgot to update it when I posted here. JJL (talk) 01:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User Philbox17 and his three pairs of socks

This user currently is the subject of yet another SPI, has 5 other confirmed socks in the last two weeks alone, has ]previously identified here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=R%C3%A9seau_de_R%C3%A9sistance_du_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois&diff=276365206&oldid=276363474 that he is a member of the Reseau de Resistance du Quebecois (which is the article where he is causing all of the trouble), and has now advanced to personal attacks, specifically here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AR%C3%A9seau_de_R%C3%A9sistance_du_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois&diff=316815127&oldid=316814798 against myself. Is there any way to take more action against this user than by simply blocking his socks? He's like a hydra, you cut one head off and another one pops up. He has obvious and stated COI, and his socking is making it difficult to keep any sense of civility and NPOV on the article, not to mention inflaming other users. Any admin, please...advice would be appreciated! Frmatt (talk) 03:16, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Further Info - I forgot to mention the previous ANI postings about him...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Reseau+de+resistance+du+quebecois&prefix=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27+noticeboard&fulltext=Search+all+administrators%27+noticeboards+and+archives&fulltext=Search Frmatt (talk) 03:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Addendum Two - This user appears to be wikistalking me as he has made an edit on a userpage where I had posted a comment about him within minutes of the comment being posted. Please see User talk:Versageek. Frmatt (talk) 03:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Frmatt clearly admit that he is doing vandalism on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:76.64.152.111, in the section your leaving. "you've done some excellent work! WP always needs more editors, especially those who are willing to do vandalism fighting like you have been doing." He give credit to user for making vandalism on the RRQ page, it is his own words, there is a serious problem with that user. NordiquesQc (talk) 23:20, 28 September 2009

Since it appears that there is abuse that may be coordinated offsite involving COI-affected accounts that have no intention of following the consensus here, I have semiprotected Réseau de Résistance du Québécois. This will stop the IPs and also the brand-new registered accounts. Other admins may modify this protection as they think best. The issue has also been discussed at WP:COIN#Réseau de Résistance du Québécois. EdJohnston (talk) 04:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Calling all admins/vandal fighters who are fans of Weezer

There are multiple vandals doing damage to numerous articles related to this band. I've knocked out most of the more obvious stuff and protected the main Weezer article. If there's anyone out there who actually has some knowledge related to this band, all of their articles could probably use a good once-over to insure there's not more of it hanging around. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:14, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

A list of particular articles would be helpful. Even those of us who are indifferent to Weezer aren't fans of vandals. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:29, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Deleting banned sock user:Dabamizan48's page creations

Sock of Paknur (talk · contribs) evading ban. Created a lot of articles in case anyone wants to apply the "Creation by banned user" on them YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 05:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Concerns about Iwillremembermypassthistime

I have real concerns about the actions of Iwillremembermypassthistime (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

Over the past 12 hours this user has made 100+ edits, nearly all with no edit summary to a variety of geographic articles. I have reverted the changes to {{Infobox England region}} and all the articles which previously linked to it as they broke the template and all the articles. The nature of the changes were drastic - completely replacing the template with another unsuitable one - and were not discussed. This pattern of undiscussed changes means I think someone with more expertise than me should go look at the user's other changes to see if any intervention is needed. --Simple Bob (talk) 06:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The username kind of gives away that they've been here before....VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

also created and edits userpage User:AS1S1SA1AA which is constantly edited by IP User:93.45.54.25 Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 07:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you consider asking him/her about these edits? Or informing them of this thread? I see no discussion anywhere that let's them know there are concerns. 98.248.33.198 (talk) 07:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I have notified the user concerned. - Bilby (talk) 08:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Guitarherochristopher

This is a message which may explain User:Guitarherochristopher's behaviour on Wikipedia, and follows on from his alleged sockpuppetry. I was looking at Coldplay Expert's talk page and I found this written there. I'm not sure if this has been noted already or if this page is the right place to report it, but if the message is true it may explain his disruptive editing behaviour on Wikipedia. - Nimbusania talk 07:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Procedural Note I have informed the user of this thread, on their talk page. Basket of Puppies 09:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Semiprotect gold please!

This thread was moved to Requests for page protection --Cybercobra (talk) 08:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)