Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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Proposal to remove "rearrangement of text" from definition of minor edit.

It is currently suggested on Help:Minor_edit to mark rearrangement of text without modification of the content as a minor edit. I am suggesting removing this, because content prominence management is more controversial than ever before with only the lede showing up by default on mobile browsing and the desire of interested editors to control prominence of contents. The location of text within article can often be a highly contentious dispute even if the meaning doesn't change and I am suggesting no longer recommending rearrangement of text as minor. Graywalls (talk) 22:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support - per Graywalls' statement, the location of text can be significant. Also not that the "rearrangement of text" is only mentioned in the "rule of thumb" last paragraph, but not mentioned in the preceding descriptive text. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Assuming you're referring to the last paragraph of the lead, the issue is that the rule of thumb mentioned there isn't restricted – as it should be – to non-contentious edits. Suggest adding "non-contentious" to the opening words, so that the sentence reads A good rule of thumb is that non-contentious edits consisting solely of spelling corrections, formatting changes, or rearrangement of text without modification of the content should be flagged as minor edits. MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:51, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  The original phrase "rearrangement of text without modification of the content" seems self-contradictory, as one cannot "rearrange" something without modifying it. The original wording is nonsensical. I presume what was intended, was "rearrangement of text without modification of the meaning". Mathglot (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think it is intended to mean "without changing any non-space characters". But, regardless, the whole page is so unclear it's not surprising that editors disagree about how to use the feature. I Oppose the proposal as written and also any broadening the scope of minor edits to "without modification of the meaning". But I Support a collaborative effort to re-write the page entirely. MichaelMaggs (talk) 07:52, 20 August 2023 (UTC) Based on subsequent arguments, I've changed my view to "throw it all away", and I've voted for that separately below. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support — There are quite a few edit wars over the placement of text. A particularly prevalent example is when text is moved in and out of the lead section. Zero^talk 09:08, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Indeed. In addition to my proposal above, it would help a lot if it were to be stated clearly somewhere on the page that moving text between the lead and the body of an article, in either direction, never counts as a minor edit. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:02, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  It doesn't have to involve movement between body and lede to be major. There are multiple ways within the body to move things around so flattering items are placed prominently while unflattering things are buried in the haystack. An example of reputation management edit by a suspected public relations editor is changing the arbitration break, such as changing from 2010-2020, 2020 to current: to 2010-2015, 2015-current in order to make unflattering things go away from the latest history section. Graywalls (talk) 21:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose as per MichaelMaggs's concerns. While there are certainly contentious movings of text, an awful lot of what I see is things like fixing the order of a alphabetized or date-based list, where small errors are common and the minor status is appropriate. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 20:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Apparently having information in the second section of the lead instead of the first sentence can be equivalent to covering for rapists[1] and protecting convicted child molesters/rapists[2], so it is clearly not minor. There can be an exception for rearranging alphabetically, by date, or similar neutral criteria. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:11, 12 August 2023 (UTC) Edit: I would not be opposed to getting rid of the entire minor edit system as proposed by others. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:57, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose The purpose of minor edits is to mark changes that have negligible chance of creating controversy. While rearranging text might be controversial in some cases, in many cases, it's indeed a minor edit. Moving content into or out of the lead probably shouldn't be minor, but moving a clearly misplaced paragraph between sections is a textbook minor edit. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 01:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - I have seen huge edit wars over “minor” edits. Thus, there are times when I think we should scrap the entire system of classifying edits as major or minor. It isn’t serving it’s intended purpose.

Then I remember how many times I have seen bad faith editors attempt to “hide” major changes by marking them as minor, and I realize that the marking is useful in a way NOT intended - it tells me that I need to pay EXTRA attention to any edit so marked. Blueboar (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Took the words right out of my mouth. The only time in practice that "minor" edits can be ignored is when they are performed by the small fraction of long-standing editors one has learned to never play this type of game. Zero^talk 05:43, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, editors who are working professional in the capacity of client marketing communications and prominence management are excellent gamers of system. Graywalls (talk) 07:16, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support If editors are "fixing the order of a alphabetized or date-based list, where small errors are common", then sure, mark those edits as minor; but the 'good rule of thumb' sentence shouldn't state so plainly that "rearrangement of text without modification of the content should be flagged as minor edits" (emphasis mine), since possible WP:NPOV/WP:WEIGHT violations will be marked as "minor". Per WP:NPOV: Undue weight can be given in several ways, including ... prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements.... Some1 (talk) 02:26, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose (but support potential rewrite) First of all, if the major/minor distinction is important, then the mobile platform should support it. Second, when I rehab bad machine translation, word order is a big part of what I am fixing. Usually this is within the same sentence mind you, but I think there aren't enough use cases in the proposal, and it *is* "rearranging text". Third, I too have seen SEO-like efforts to get certain things in the lede, and support specifically excluding moves into and out of the lede from being called minor. Those are not minor edits. If it comes to rearranging sentence order or paragraph order, at best this is a rewrite for organization and probably not minor either, but that's discussable, I guess. Really though, if the mobile platform doesn't need it why does anyone else? Especially as it's so often abused. Elinruby (talk) 06:21, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

If in doubt, it should always be a non-minor edit. Not being able to flag as minor is not an issue like those who edit for PR purposes that intentionally utilize minor edits to evade scrutiny and reduce the attention their edits get. We're increasing seeing things like name drops, office locations, as well as awards/accolades/honors in lede, because these are often things article subject wants to highlight and be part of the first impression. Graywalls (talk) 07:13, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand the problem and when I saw it, it was a determined attempt to insert into the lede a claim being actively touted by Russian propaganda outlets, so yes, I understand that SEO is often at work with these. My suggestion however is still to rewrite the wording, but in a different way rather than making a blanket prohibition.

As far as the mobile platform goes, I also get it that the stereotype of mobile users is not good and may in some cases be justified. I just...see so much drama over this on the dramah boards that I can't help but ask why the 'minor edit" distinction is needed. Of course you and I know that it avoids wasting editor time, but that's not a priority on en-wikipedia, is it? But don't let my cynicism hijack your thread. I think the wording should change, just not the way you are proposing. Are you specifically interested in the lede moves, or can you enunciate another situation where this is a problem? Elinruby (talk) 11:22, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose but I think Mathglot got it right to suggest, "rearrangement of text without modification of the meaning". When I read the text in question, I see it as rearranging within the same sentence, like moving, "spelling corrections, formatting changes, or rearrangement of text" to "formatting changes, rearrangement of text, or spelling corrections". I would mark that as minor. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 18:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

  So you'd support it with re-write? Graywalls (talk) 19:00, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

  If I'm reading the room right, you correctly identified a problem and it seems like changing "content" to "meaning" in the sentence is a no-brainer that addresses most of the issue. Removing "rearrangement" is split. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 19:10, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support I had always taken "without modification of the content" to mean changes to white space. Would oppose an expansion to "meaning". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, but alter the text to "rearrangement of text without modification of the meaning" to repair the nonsense. Even though I would probably only mark it "minor" when done within the same sentence and had considered recommending inserting "...in the same sentence", on reflection I think that's too restrictive, and it would be better to leave it out and let such things be decided by consensus on a case by case basis, as long as it's clear that the slightest change to meaning means it is not minor. Mathglot (talk) 19:21, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw the whole system away It's my experience that this topic always causes more heat than light. There are some examples above about how minor edits may draw even more scrutiny, and I remember this entertaining ANI thread where someone got yelled at for marking page moves as minor, when it turns out that MediaWiki always marks page moves as minor. And Twinkle automatically marks revision restorations rollbacks are marked as minor, which is probably one of the least minor edits one can make. Ironically, I just did a bunch of copyediting on an article yesterday and the only edit that I did mark minor was rearrangement of text, so idk. If people still really think this is valuable, then in my imaginary techno-utopia, a bot would perform semantic analysis on each edit and do the marking for us. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:00, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

  I've long since stopped marking anything I do as minor. I know it's just one click on the checkbox, but even that minimal amount of effort doesn't seem justified by the pointlessness of bothering. RoySmith (talk) 20:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

  There was a discussion about getting rid of "minor" last March/April, but reactions were mixed. Schazjmd (talk) 20:45, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

  Twinkle doesn't mark my restore edits as minor, and my configuration shouldn't be anything special. See here. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:42, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

  You're right; I meant the default rollback functionality that rollbackers have, which I erroneously conflated with Twinkle's simulation of such. It's documented on the rollback page that these actions are all marked as minor; example here. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 00:00, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

• Throw whole system away. I've brought this idea up before at Idea lab. There is a sizeable fraction of editors when asked who are ready to scrap the whole idea of a minor edits and that's very promising because as I explained in the thread, it is a software design mistake. Unfortunately, removal of features in a community project faces an uphill battle because there's something like "feature inertia" where once a feature exists it's hard to remove it without upsetting some people. But overall I think the editors in favor of keeping the minor edit feature made pretty weak arguments why. Since the idea that the minor edit box should be removed is still novel idea and not often brought up, I think the concept needs to be seeded around more before any action is likely to occur; otherwise, it's too shocking a change and there'd be many people opposing by knee-jerk opposes or very hollow "I use it" arguments. Jason Quinn (talk) 21:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Jason Quinn, on the assumption that getting rid of it isn't possible, would you be interested in a system that restricts is availability to more experienced editors? Alternatively, we could request a config change so that minor edits aren't hidden by default. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:39, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  Even if it's limited to experienced editors, it needs to be a revokable privilege for them as well. But just doing away with it may be better. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, edits marked as hide from scrutinyminor should not be hidden by default. —Kusma (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  @WhatamIdoing: No. I don't think it should be restricted to experienced users. The problem with the minor edit checkbox is fundamental: It's just an ill-defined semantically-relative concept. Even when well-used "correctly" by an experienced editor, the edits they mark as minor my not be viewed as such by others. The minor edit checkbox is mostly the illusion of a feature and does very little useful. This idea of limiting its availability would make it less prevalent on the project and perhaps slightly increase its value when used but not solve any of the core issues it has. If anything I fear such a change would just prevent its eventual removal. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  The main use seems to be hiding simple reversions from watchlists. (I have that setting disabled, so I still see them.) There seem to be some people who appreciate this, but it might be possible to hide the button for manual reversions and still allow it for bots or Twinkle. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support – Even moves within paragraphs establish context that wasn't there before, and such edits can stand to be scrutinized by other editors, even though I'm usually making such moves in articles that have real coherency problems and don't provoke POV disputes with such edits. My edits are limited to being marked as minor when they are bot-assisted, such as with JWB, which seems to be a convenient use for the tag. Dhtwiki (talk) 03:38, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, the definition of "minor edit" should be made to conform to reality: A "minor edit" is one where the "minor edit" checkbox has been ticked. I don't think this is a useful feature, but we should not waste any time on it. —Kusma (talk) 08:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw whole system away. The cognitive load costs of the system outweighs the minor benefits (pun not intended). It's really only marginally useful when filtering the contributions of a non-bot editor you already trust who also happens to make a lot of minor edits, which does happen but is very rare. I agree with some of the discussion above making the ability to mark edits as minor a grantable and revocable privelege. —siroχo 09:51, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw the whole system away The minor edit thing has always been pointless, and a pointless source of drama, for all of Wikipedia's history. It's only purpose is to give people a reason to attack people who don't follow arcane and pointless rules about its use. If it didn't exist, nothing bad would happen except that people would stop having a reason to complain about its misuse. --Jayron32 11:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw whole system away Per above. I also don't agree with the idea that the minor edit system isn't harmless—its use is often the source of pointless debate, it's used as a way for disruptive editors to escape scrutiny, and is a constant source of confusion for new editors. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 19:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw whole system away Minor edits are too often used to try to conceal changes that prove controversial. Agree with Jayron32 and Freedom4U.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw whole system away. Minor edits as a concept have passed their usefulness. Stifle (talk) 12:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw whole system away. I commented above, but I might as well do the bolded-bulleted thing to make it official. I've also started a thread at WP:VPT#Deprecating minor edits?. RoySmith (talk) 14:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw whole system away. I initially suggested a revision to the text, but based on later arguments (now supported by five admins), I agree it's best to get rid of the whole thing. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
•  Comment: The title of this section is Proposal to remove "rearrangement of text" from definition of minor edit. If full deprecation is to be proposed, that probably needs to be set up as a proper RFC with a better title, and with pings to the editors who contributed to the March/April discussion. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:16, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw whole system away. It is so common for those not editing in good faith to mark an edit as minor when it is not, that most edits need to be looked at if they are from an unfamiliar editor. Also, many honest mistakes are made in classifying edits as regular or minor. The few times it can be useful do not justify the overhead of the system. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:19, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• Throw the whole system away. If I've ever used this feature myself, it hasn't been for a very long time. It doesn't impact the likelihood of me taking a closer look one whit, either.~TPW 14:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 48#Completely remove the idea of a "minor edit" Edits marked m are frequently not. Selfstudier (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: Minor edits are used by bots to suppress pings in talk page edits, and of course that functionality shouldn't be removed. (This was brought up at the VPT thread, but bears mentioning here.) — Qwerfjkltalk 21:16, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  There's a bot flag that should be used for that purpose. RoySmith (talk) 01:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  You're right, I was mistaken. As a bot op I should really remember this stuff. — Qwerfjkltalk 21:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

  @RoySmith: There's no check in the code allowing the bot flag to suppress the page edit notifications, there's only the check for minor edits and the nominornewtalk user right. Anomie⚔ 23:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

• I support attaching weights to the feature and throwing it in the ocean, but really this should be being addressed with a full, dedicated RfC. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose But listen, guys, you can't propose a major change that affects hundreds of thousands of users in a non-RfC that has not been advertised anywhere. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  People can propose anything they want anywhere. It will need to go through a proper RfC to be enacted, but that doesn't mean people can't talk about it here. RoySmith (talk) 01:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  Is there more that needs to be done before such an RFC? If not, then why not have one? Wehwalt (talk) 01:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  Once the RfC is opened, please advertise this in as many places as possible. The vast majority of editors don't have the Village pumps on their watchlists, or even Centralized discussion and whatnot. Doing away with minor edits — a terrible idea, but I'll save it for the RfC — is a huge change (akin to the Vector 2022 catastrophe) that literally affects almost everyone who edits Wikipedia. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  Given that it would necessitate (small) software (setting?) changes it might be a good idea to check in with the people at MediaWiki (or whoever is responsible for which features to use on a particular wiki). -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Random person no 362478479, see WP:VPT#Deprecating minor edits? RoySmith (talk) 17:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

• While I get that some people don't find it useful, others do. An RFC to enable editors to opt out of the minor edit button process would likely succeed. If we had that then those who see no benefit in it could opt out, and those of us who make lots of minor edits could continue to do so without some people knowing whether they were flagged as minor or not. ϢereSpielChequers 19:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment It is true that "throw it away" discussion is more general than the title of this topic so it isn't appropriate for any action being taken on minor edits outside the scope of the "rearrangement of text" issue. "Throw it all away" is also a change that requires deep thought and consideration by the devs. The reason the discussion widened is because this topic itself is the kind of discussion created by the confusing nature of what a "minor" edit is. In that sense, the OP's discussion could be viewed as evidence that minor edits have a deeper issue going on. But several things should be pointed out: the arguments against minor edit aren't a purely English wiki problem, it applies to all languages. So ideally no English language only patch-up is made. This deserves a very wide discussion. Applying CSS tweaks and stuff on a single wiki isn't not solving the problem but sweeping it under the rug. Clearly, a much bigger discussion should be had. I'm also reading some of the technical comments being made at VPT and those comments are also very valuable. I think what this thread is on course to establish is that A) there is very strong sentiment against "minor" edits, B) the arguments in favor of keeping minor edits are fairly weak, and C) a serious RFC on removing "minor edits" is justifiable and should be viewed seriously by more than just the English wiki community (eg by other languages, devs and WMF). Jason Quinn (talk) 21:02, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  As an ex-dev, removing a check box is not something that "requires deep thought and consideration by the devs"; in fact, it's the kind of easy learning task one might give to a new dev to learn the wmf environment. Maybe you meant, "requires deep thought by the business unit", but I would disagree with that, too. As far as, "the arguments against minor edit aren't a purely English wiki problem", yes, they are. Or at least, any decision to remove/restrict/alter them at en-wiki is purely an en-wiki issue; we have our rules, other Wikipedias have their rules (other than a common ToU). When one foreign Wikipedia decided to ban all edits from IP users, that was a decision made by consensus there, and implemented by the devs; it didn't affect en-wiki, or anybody else. What we do here at en-wiki about minor edits need not, should not, and I daresay will not affect any other wiki. Mathglot (talk) 02:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

  See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Deprecating_minor_edits? for the technical aspects. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 12:51, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

• The minor edit flag is a courtesy feature. If someone is misusing it, call them out. If you're not interested in it, ignore it. We've had it for 22 years and if it wasn't useful, it would have been removed long before. The energy on display in this discussion (and several nearly identical ones before it) from the detractors would be better spent on lobbying the developers to add a preference for not seeing the minor edit marker.  — Scott • talk 00:31, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

  ↑↑ This. InfiniteNexus (talk) 02:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

  Calling people out on it -- the policing of minor edits -- consumes some reasonable amount of effort, whether it is teaching newbies about what a minor edit is or trying to turn someone over for the abuse of the system. I have yet to see any assertion of an actual usefulness here that is larger than the effort this drains. The idea that we would have gotten rid of something in place is a bit utopian at heart, and doesn't reflect that it takes building up a certain energy to get rid of it. If gotten rid of, people would still be able to type MINOR EDIT in their edit comment if they thought that was important to announce. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

  "A bit utopian at heart" is the original spirit of this entire project! Minor edits were invented for the WikiWikiWeb, which I used to edit before Wikipedia existed. At the time (really sounding like Grandpa Simpson here) edit summaries and diffs didn't exist, so it was a useful way of telling your colleagues that the edit you'd just made wasn't something which would require much effort to assess. It was a small community that operated on a lot of trust. That flag got picked up when the UseModWiki engine was developed, which also implemented edit summaries, and then both of those were carried over into MediaWiki. At that point, the flag became very much like you describe, a way of saying "MINOR EDIT" but without having to type it every time. The effort of "policing" it, though, shouldn't be any more than the effort of reviewing any other edit in the course of your activity. Every edit gets reviewed, either immediately by a bot or filter, or eventually by a person. It's a person's job to decide whether an editor was truthful in their summary. We've all seen people write "fix typo" but actually add bad content, or similar. That's a problem which requires intervention. If anything, the minor edit flag gives people who are going to do that a way to make their bad behavior even more obvious. When you consider the flag as just a shortcut for typing some extra words in the summary, the apparent extra effort of reviewing it evaporates. I spend a lot of time looking through article histories for things - being able to scroll past a lot of minor edits and find significant changes is useful. When you look at it that way, the minor edit flag is a little helper for the people who come after you, much like an edit summary is in general.  — Scott • talk 10:01, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

  I also edited WikiWikiWeb back in the day, and they thought that camel case was a great idea. And ironically, that project became a hub for a software management philosophy where suggestions like "well it's been around for decades so let's just keep it" would fall short. This discussion is about how the flag is used now. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 01:24, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

• If you think the ability to mark an edit as minor is harmful or even just useless, then you think it means more than it does. It doesn't, of course, mean that the edit itself was indeed minor. You can choose to trust that an edit marked minor was actually minor or not, the same as you may or may not trust an edit summary that says "Fixed typo". What you can be sure of, though, is that its author asserted that it was minor. And that piece of information is still useful regardless of whether you know whether the content of the edit was indeed minor; for example, when compiling a list of authors for attribution. (In particular, whether the minor flag was asserted is one of the few pieces of information the WMF makes publicly, if inconveniently, available for deleted edits.) I'll certainly grant, though, that there's excellent reason to disable the option to hide minor edits from watchlists and recent changes as being fundamentally misleading. —Cryptic 03:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

  If many of us recognize that many people think it means something other than what it means, and it's this up-front feature presented to every editor on every desktop edit, I feel that's indicative of a problem. —siroχo 10:31, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

  It is useful to know if an editor cannot or will not appropriately use minor. Misunderstanding such a simple thing is an indication that further investigation is needed. Johnuniq (talk) 02:46, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

  Right, if you guys want to get rid of edit "indicators", you should start with the canned edit summaries in the mobile app that newbies abuse all the time. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:06, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  Right; if you provide convenience features, there's always going to be someone who uses them wrongly. That's unfortunately just a fact of life for some reason. Sometimes you just have to go knock on your neighbor's door and ask them to stop putting regular trash into the recycling bin. That's better than taking away the recycling bin entirely because it's being misused.  — Scott • talk 10:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

• Drop the whole "minor edit" system It's purpose is to say "no need to review this edit" but nobody can trust that an editor making a problematic or controversial edit would not also misidentify it as a minor edit. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
• I have no strong opinion on the particulars here but the text that started off this RFC was originally added in this edit in 2003. I'm only mentioning this because I noted it in a tangent relating to this ANI discussion. Graham87 (talk) 08:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Language at WP:UPNOT

There's a sentence there that reads "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor". Intrepretation of this seems to be a bit vague in terms of whether someone can actually act unilaterally or not for something they percieve as extremely offensive per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1137#Did I do the right thing here?. I figured this might be suited to a broader community discussion if acting on said language is actually generally discouraged. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

In my experience, trying to police other's userpages generally just creates more drama than it's worth. The issue of "offense" also tends to be fairly subjective. You get a whole bunch of people adding a "Kashmir is a part of India" userbox, and you're liable to create a crap-storm that burns ANI to the ground. I just don't think it's worth a whole lot of community time to try to clean up userpages unless (operative word) they are being otherwise disruptive. Obviously there are especially egregious cases: "Kill All [insert group]", "I Support Child Pornography", things that are probably themselves illegal in most jurisdictions, including the US where the hardware sits. GMG^talk 11:56, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) To clarify, I was thinking that stating that one enjoys a work widely described as transphobic (What is a Woman?) would qualify as "extemely offensive material". I got the impression that community consensus isn't as strong for that being as clearly cut offensive as hypothetically speaking, stating that one enjoys a work like the The Turner Diaries which is widely described as racist. Unless the situations are different enough that a comparison would not be valid. But considering the universal code of conduct includes discrimination based on gender/gender identity or based on a contributor's race, it seems to be a fair enough comparison to note if we treat transphobia and racism differently. Or is indicating support for a work that espouses those ideas not quite the same thing? Would unilaterally removing content in both of those situations still kind of be a grey area? I was thinking if it's the latter, the phrasing at the actual policy page should make that more clear or give different advice. What counts as "extremely offensive material" exactly and when should someone consider not removing it? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that "extremely offensive" can be subjective. Especially when it comes to culture war issues like in the case you linked, as a major tactic in the culture war is people on both sides taking extreme offense over any indication that people disagree with their viewpoints to further the polarization. Anomie⚔ 12:08, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

So if these judgements can be especially subjective, maybe the language at WP:UPNOT should be changed somehow to reflect current community norms? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

But how to you legislate subjectivity in detail, especially with creative works? As a modern counter-example, Tarantino has made a few movies that are deeply and intentionally racist, to the point of people crying on set because they were reenacting visceral scenes of slavery, like...actually in the hot sun...actually in a cotton field. Django specifically inspired a lot of controversy, but...it's also won two awards from the NAACP and one from the African-American Film Critics Association. GMG^talk 13:02, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I think there has to be a line somewhere, or how else would we define disruptive edits about contentious topics that lead to blocks? I'm not sure how one would go about legislating subjectivity, but I do genuinely think that there should be something nuanced about how to approach situations like this if the general community consensus ends up being to not do what I did. It's not that great for a PAG to suggest a course of action that isn't in line with community norms – it sets people up for failure and more drama. That's why I think some sort of clarity for the language used at WP:UPNOT would be useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe something like an explanatory note saying that what counts as extremely offensive can be subjective? Or that it may be best to try other methods first (like what was suggested in the ANI thread)? There has to be something we could say that'd suggest a course of action more in line with community norms. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:32, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I think this is probably broadly covered by the text above the table, and the general principle that the WP weapon of choice is just talking to somebody if you see an issue. Most people are generally accommodating and don't intend to give overt offense. GMG^talk 21:51, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Is it, though? I feel like reasonable people can read that text above of the table and come to the exact same conclusion as I did, especially considering the comparison to indicating support for racist ideology. I'm not completely close-minded, Pecopteris's comment is the closest I've come to feeling like there might be some way of more clearly outlining what's considered an okay lassez-faire action from any one individual editor and what isn't. I think you raise an interesting point in regards to how someone could enjoy/support a work without nessecarily endorsing its core themes...

As an example, I grew up as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm incredibly familiar with how what is considered offensive can depend on a lot of factors. I'm genuinely curious how to reconcile differences within the community with mutual respect for all parties. Given what's stated here includes "People who identify with a certain sexual orientation or gender identity using distinct names or pronouns", I guess my question then goes into what happens when someone's beliefs contradict that? What is a Woman? is well-known for its speech in which Walsh says: "You are all child abusers. You prey upon impressionable children and indoctrinate them into your insane ideological cult, a cult which holds many fanatical views but none so deranged as the idea that boys are girls and girls are boys."[3] This response is in regards to the school board creating a policy that respected preferred gender pronouns. I suppose its possible I'm reaching too far here? Or maybe I'm not communicating what I'm thinking clearly enough? Am I really the only one seeing things this way? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:28, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

The thing about "people who identify with...pronouns", in simpler English, means "If an editor tells you that he's a man, then stop referring to him as 'she' in discussions on wiki." The community isn't asking editors to swear undying fealty to particular philosophical or religious beliefs; we're just asking editors to stop being rude to individual editors when/if they're ever told that their guesses about other editors were wrong. On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog, and on wiki, you shouldn't assume that you know more about other editors than they know about themselves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• My thoughts - I actually appreciate it when an editor includes potentially offensive material on their user page. It alerts me to the potential that the editor in question may not be able to maintain a WP:NPOV on a particular subject. It is helpful to know people’s biases upfront. Blueboar (talk) 12:29, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  I second @Blueboar's remark. I would also like to add the following perspective:

  The Wikipedia project, I think, could be summarized as "bringing together a community of people from around the world to create an open-source encyclopedia that reflects, to the greatest degree possible, the sum total of reliably sourced human knowledge". Is that not a fair summary?

  With that in mind, I think our community standards should not only reflect the "norms" and socio-cultural beliefs of those who are currently active here. Instead, the community standards should create an environment such that any human being on earth that wants to contribute to this project should feel like they are valued and welcome to participate, regardless of their cultural background or views on certain subjects.

  That includes LGBTQ+ folks, like myself. It also includes folks who are religious or otherwise socially conservative and watch things like "What is a Woman?". Within reason, community standards need to allow for constructive contributions from all types of people, including those who have personal views we find deeply offensive.

  From that perspective, removing a userbox that says, essentially, "I like 'What is a Woman'" because it's "deeply offensive" makes about as much sense as a deeply religious editor removing a "pro-choice" userbox because they find it "deeply offensive". I think @GreenMeansGo is on the right track here:

  • remove content that is illegal or discusses things that are illegal like CP
  • remove "Kill all the X" or equally direct calls for real-world violence
  • remove anything that's a personal attack against another user (like a user dedicating their userpage to direct bullying of another editor because they're trans, for example).

  Outside of that...I say let people have their views, and express them to a reasonably measured degree, as with the use of userboxes. As long as they're constructive editors. If they're trying to POV push those views into mainspace articles, we already have strong safeguards against that. I don't think this subjective piece of language, "deeply offensive", adds much of value to Wikipedia, and its use and interpretation seems to cause discord in the community that would be avoided with a more laissez-faire attitude. That's my (possibly offensive) POV on offensive POVs. Good day. Pecopteris (talk) 21:54, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

RfC (WP:UPNOT)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Is the current language at WP:UPNOT reflective of current community norms and the Universal Code of Conduct, or should it be changed in some way? In particular, the content that states: "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor." Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:26, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

• No - change or remove - First of all, thanks for opening this RfC, @Clovermoss. I think it's very good to clarify this issue. I will copy/paste most of my above comment here, with minor modifications. I look forward to reading the ensuing discussion.
  The Wikipedia project, I think, could be summarized as "bringing together a community of people from around the world to create an open-source encyclopedia that reflects, to the greatest degree possible, the sum total of reliably sourced human knowledge". Is that not a fair summary?
  With that in mind, I think our community standards should not only reflect the "norms" and widely-held socio-cultural beliefs of those who are currently active here. Instead, the community standards should create an environment such that any human being on earth that wants to contribute to this project should feel like they are valued and welcome to participate, regardless of their cultural background or views on certain subjects.
  That includes LGBTQ+ folks, like myself. It also includes folks who are religious or otherwise socially conservative and watch things like "What is a Woman?". Within reason, community standards need to allow for constructive contributions from all types of people, including those who have personal views we find deeply offensive.
  From that perspective, removing a userbox that says, essentially, "I like 'What is a Woman'" because it's "extremely offensive" makes about as much sense as a deeply religious editor removing a "pro-choice" userbox because they find it "extremely offensive".
  I think the following would be reasonable guidelines:
  • remove content that is illegal or discusses things that are illegal like CP
  • remove "Kill all the X" or equally direct calls for real-world violence
  • remove anything that's a personal attack against another user (like a user dedicating their userpage to direct bullying of another editor because of their identity or beliefs, for example).
• Outside of that...I say let people have their views, and express them to a reasonably measured degree, as with the use of userboxes. As long as they're constructive editors. If they're trying to POV push those views into mainspace articles, we already have strong safeguards against that. I don't think this subjective piece of language, "extremely offensive material", adds anything of value to Wikipedia, and its use and interpretation seems to cause discord in the community that would be avoided with a more laissez-faire attitude.
  That's my (possibly offensive) POV on offensive POVs. Good day. Pecopteris (talk) 23:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  remove content that is illegal or discusses things that are illegal like CP flatly wont work as a hard-fast rule in that wording. Cannabis is illegal at the state level where I live, and even if you live in a state where it's legal, it's still illegal on the federal level. Being gay is illegal in a third of the world. If we think that's not going to be somehow equated with child pornography...go ask one of those countries because it very much already is. GMG^talk 11:16, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Agree. Internet piracy is illegal in most places. Porn is illegal in many countries. The Human Centipede 2 was banned in New Zealand. In 1920s America a user couldn’t talk about alcoholic beverages. On the other hand things many people find abhorrent are in fact the law in many places, like corporal punishment and genocide of gay people. Dronebogus (talk) 08:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Yes it's OK I guess. (Summoned by robot). First off I'd like to hear what practical operational problems of a large publishing concern (which is what we are) are solved by this.
  IMO the passage should actually be a lot stronger, like "expressions of political and cultural ideology are not allowed" or something, as "I am a (American) Republican" or "I am a (American) Democrat" adds little or nothing useful to the project and are just going to alienate some people and and attract others (and all we need is bunch of Democrats or Republicans etc. getting together to work on articles). If get a request for help or cooperation from someone who has "I like Trump" on her userpage, I'm likely to tell her to fuck right off rather than helping or cooperating. Like it or not that is how enough people roll to matter. So tell me how allowing her to put that on her userpage is helpful to the project.
  The Wikipedia has an ideology, and a strong one, and and a radical one in terms of history and, to a good degree, present times: the Wikipedia is an Enlightenment institution. As such we obviously favor sourcing to observable facts rather than authority, but along with that the other enlightenment values are baked in -- liberty, democracy, natural rights, toleration (but see Paradox of tolerance) and so forth, in general. I would have to say that there's been a progression in Enlightenment thought since the 17th century to cover changing situations, and the direction of this progress is pretty obvious: in favor of female equality rather than against it, in favor of racial equality rather than against it, in favor of a broader acceptance of sexuality rather than a narrower one, and so forth.
  All this being so, people who are against democracy, natural rights, toleration, racial equality, and so forth, just aren't welcome here. (For some purposes; I mean anyone can work here, even a Nazi, if we don't know they're a Nazi and they keep it themselves and work on articles about motor sports.) Somebody's got an "I like [some crypto-fascist politician]" statement, I want her gone, or at any rate far away from articles on politics and culture and history etc (which there's no mechanism here for that and it'd mean constant policing) Because "determining facts without fear or favor and stating them without regard to effects" is an Enlightenment value, not an authoritarian or monarchist or theocratical or fascist one.
  But neither do we want to allow Social Democrats but not conservatives state their beliefs. Just, we shouldn't have any of that. We should have a stronger statement IMO, but certainly not a more watered-down one. Herostratus (talk) 02:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  The operational problem I was trying to solve was whether the phrasing in that guideline reflects actual practice given that everyone has told me up to this point that I shouldn't have actually edited that person's userpage even if the end result would've likely been the removal of said content, just not from me. I thought this had a broader impact and that it'd be a good idea to clarify what someone's expected course of action actually is if it's not what the guideline says you can do. As I said before, it's setting people up for failure. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think this is a good contrast to what I said. I do agree that an outright ban on any expressions of political, social, and cultural ideology would be more reasonable than the status quo. In my view, that would include "This user is a Democrat", "this user is a Republican", "This user is conservative", "This user is LGBTQ+", "this user is pro-life/pro-choice", "this user believes that Black Lives Matter", "this user believes in the U.S. Constitution" - all of it, gone. I've seen some support for this elsewhere.

  From my POV, that would be a bit excessive. No, Wikipedia's not a social network, but it is nice to give users the opportunity to express something about who they are and what they think about the world. In moderation, it's a fun, harmless bit of community building. I have no problem with someone saying "this user is trans", "this user is pro-choice" or "this user is a Marxist", but it's not really tenable to allow those, but not allow "this user likes popular conservative movie X". Allow it all, within clear, objective guardrails like the ones I suggested, or ban it all. That's my two cents. I'm going to back off now so that I don't monopolize the conversation. Pecopteris (talk) 03:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'll think I'll take a step back from the conversation myself. I will be responsive to pings and direct questions, etc. But generally I've kind of made it clear what my perspective is and said more than enough. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Hmmm... interesting but a little too extreme, in my view. I agree that the current phrasing is untenable, however (as what I find "extremely offensive" probably differs from what you find "extremely offensive", and so on.) Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:26, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• I think the userspace police are more of a problem for Wikipedia than the offensive userpages are. I would favour toning down or, ideally, simply deleting UPNOT.—S Marshall T/C 08:19, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
  • This is also the position upon which I have settled. Stifle (talk) 08:14, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Yes: for instance, a lengthy text encouraging violence against Jews can be removed by any editor without discussion. The wrong application here (stating that you like an anti-trans propaganda film does not rise to this level) does not make the guideline wrong. — Bilorv (talk) 09:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Change "offensive" is too open for interpretation. Model WP:UP#POLEMIC after WP:ATTACKNAME. Restrict removal right to admins – when something is bad enough to require removal, chances are it is bad enough to warrant admin attention. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 09:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• No, the current status is not acceptable and should be changed, specifically per the option offered in this RfC, i.e. the sentence "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor" should be deleted.
  We should allow in users' pages a far more free expression of ideas, opinions, and stances. (And, yes, I'd never object to, and, of course, would never remove content that shows the user holding "extreme" political or social values, e.g. that they are fascists, communists, anarchists, nihilists, etc. Note, please, that these examples are what most people, per polling, consider "extreme" views. I'm not equating fascism with other ideologies.) For one, it would occasionally help the work here tremendously. E.g. I cannot understand the stubborn efforts by user XYZ to glorify some SS butcher. checking his user page I find a plethora of 88's. This simplifies things: I can try and keep that user away from, at least, fascism-related lemmas.
  It's instructive how messy the conversation gets when we try to censor users' pages but "not too much" and particularly not much when the pages contain material with which we disagree though not excessively, e.g. "I like Trump," but we want to censor when they contain material we find abhorrent, e.g. "I like Merloni." Take a look at the discussion between Herostratus and Pecopteris, above. Yet, freedom of expression of personal opinions is specifically about opinions we find abhorrent. The so-called paradox of tolerance is essentially a weak argument against the position adopted in the United States' Constitution Bill of Rights, a position we should at last adopt here, too, or at least get nearer - as far as users' pages is concerned.
  A side note: Fellow users such as Herostratus see Wikipedia is as "an enlightenment project". Ours is an post-Enlightenment era in which the values of that movement have spread and taken root in most places on Earth, in general. And Wikipedia is a project that does not promote nor allow obscurantism, dogmatism, or fanaticism. And by having Wikipedia standing in a de facto opposition to the resurgence of the latter phenomena, we can rightfully claim that the project itself acts as an instrument of human progress. Such an opposition would most emphatically be amplified through more freedom of expression, a major aspect of the ert=a of Enlightenment.
  But I digress. -The Gnome (talk) 11:45, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment In general, I agree with Random person no 362478479. Wikipedia is still the encyclopedia anyone may edit. If something posted on a user page is not liked, inform an admin or start a community discussion. More conflict and problems will be caused by giving any user the right to go censor another's user page than by restricting it as suggested. Wehwalt (talk) 13:47, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Keep the status quo. Editors should be able to remove anything at sight which is comparable in intensity and offense to anti-semitic rants. Changing the policy could risk our ability to do this speedily. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 15:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Agree with Random person no 362478479. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 15:36, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Status quo It is quite impossible to itemize all of the ways someone could post something abhorrent on their user page. The current language is fine, if you put something horrifying on your user page, expect it to be removed by anyone. --Jayron32 16:00, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• No. I have number of thoughts on this matter:
  • User pages are not highly ranked by search engines, so the potential for widespread dissemination of offense is low.
  • There is a fairly strong norm against editing someone else's user page without their permission. Having your typos and formatting issues corrected may be welcomed by some, but when the edit is motivated by a disagreement (as in, a disagreement over whether the given content is offensive or not), it's a heavy-handed intervention of the kind that only admins should be doing.
  • Offensive is in the eye of the beholder. WP:NOTCENSORED covers this persuasively. UPNOT implies NOTCENSORED "relates to article pages and images" only, but (a) NOTCENSORED does not actually include the "only" part, and (b) even if it did, it shouldn't, because it's sound advice for all content across the whole project. There can be a very fine line between removing offensive content, and policing beliefs.
  • UPNOT talks about bringing the project into disrepute. Policing of beliefs will most certainly bring the project into disrepute.
  • It is extreme hubris to think that our current intellectual milieu is optimal, has all the morally-right answers, and can objectively identify offensive content. If we enact policies which have a chilling effect on heterodox thought, we will invite a purity spiral, we will become institutionally blind to the diversity of perspectives that exist in the world, and we will thereby fail in our mission to build an encyclopedia with a neutral point of view.
  • Using userboxes to out yourself as a holder of abhorrent beliefs is probably quite helpful in attracting scrutiny and alerting the community to your potential for POV-pushing. Better to have that information out in the open.
  • Nevertheless, I don't want to see user pages become some kind of "free speech zone". We don't want to see the extreme fringes of trollsome garbage. But drawing the line requires judgement, and so we must choose our judges. I'd be OK with admins having discretion to remove such content. But I think that removal should almost always be on the basis of an associated disruptive behaviour, not the content in isolation. It's not inherently disruptive to state an opinion that others find unpleasant. Block behaviour, not beliefs.
    • Digression: Ideally, we would disallow all statements of allegiance and identity. Editors would be disembodied spirits unshackled from corrupt and earthly concerns. But alas, editors are human...
• In summary, and on balance: change the offending paragraph to Material supporting disruptive behaviour may be removed on sight by any administrator. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 16:35, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  User:Barnards.tar.gz, aside from the merits of changing UPNOT, you are deeply wrong about WP:NOTCENSORED. I truly think the majority of people who cite WP:NOTCENSORED haven't read it, and assume it means I or we can be offensive, anywhere on the project, and there ain't nothing you can or should do about it. But it is about Wikipedia articles, about readers, not users, and is about meeting our encyclopaedic purpose. Articles and readers are each mentioned three times, editors and user pages not once. Everyone who reads (or cites) WP:NOTCENSORED should also read the linked guideline WP:GRATUITOUS which contains the important point that "Offensive material should be used only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available. You will see there that offensive material has to meet a bar where editors agree it is necessary for the encyclopaedic purpose of the article.

  A user page stating that the person holds particular beliefs or hates particular things or even people, say, has zero encyclopaedic purpose. User pages serve a function towards other users in supporting our community, but not our article content, and they are not aimed at readers and not part of our mission to educate readers. If they are helping the community get along with each other and understand each other then that's great. If they cause hostility and make some people feel unwelcome on the project, then not so great. It is entirely compatible with WP:NOTCENSORED that the community can decide for itself what is suitable for user pages, our guideline and policy pages, and other forums like the village pump. For example WP:NOTCENSORED isn't illustrated with a giant penis, even if some of our less thoughtful editors might argue that would get (their interpretation of) the point across succinctly. -- Colin°^Talk 08:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Please see clause (b) of that bullet point where I hoped I’d made it clear that even if you read NOTCENSORED as applying strictly only to articles, the underlying reasons why we choose not to censor are also useful in evaluating user page content. There are various reasons why we have the NOTCENSORED policy, such as:- we don’t want to endorse a particular POV by censoring its anti-POV, we don’t want to litigate what is or isn’t offensive to various different competing groups, we don’t want to become an echo chamber... Basically all the reasons coming out in this thread. That’s why I cited NOTCENSORED. For all the same reasons we give a long leash to potentially-offensive article content, we should give a long leash to potentially-offensive user content.

  … and yet not an infinitely long leash. I’m sure you will have noticed that my recommendation doesn’t endorse free speech maximalism. I agree with GRATUITOUS. I think gratuitous use of potentially-offensive material on user pages would constitute the kind of behavioural issue that should trigger admin intervention. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Well, your point b is really saying that even if I (Barnards.tar.gz) am wrong about NOTCENSORED applying to more than just articles (because, you say it doesn't itself explicitly state that it only applies to articles) then it should. But there are very important reasons why we restrict some issues to articles. We require NPOV in our articles but not our sources and not our editors. We permit editors to have a POV, whether explicitly stated in conversation or on user pages and boxes, or whether bleedin' obvious from their edit pattern. Of course, we don't want that POV shouted all the time, but we certainly don't require editors to be neutral in their writing on talk pages, for example. For many topics, to not have formed an opinion would indicate a lack of familiarity and knowledge of the topic. So concerns about NPOV dot not apply, though it is interesting that you see censorship of an anti-POV as problematic wrt "endorsing a particular POV" but don't seem to see a problem with the original POV declaration that someone wanted to remove. Surely if one took the view that editors must not endorse any POV at all, that would apply to declaring a view just as much as removing such a declaration. In practice, we do allow limited declarations of POV and declarations of identity.

  The vast majority of user pages document things solely concerned with Wikipedia. The limited number of users who declare things about themselves are either clearly helpful to the project (what languages someone knows, if they have developer skills, etc) or mundane (where they live or grew up or were educated). Some concern identity and some people are hostile to those identities (e.g, LGBT, or a religion). I think on a collaborative project, it is ok to declare one's identity but not ok to declare one is hostile to other identities. Anyway, your final point, about exercising judgement about what we allow or not allow, is something we can agree on (though I don't share your opinion about admins). Really, NOTCENSORED (and NPOV and V and OR) are entirely irrelevant to whatever the community thinks is appropriate on user pages. That's why we are having this debate. -- Colin°^Talk 10:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  there are very important reasons why we restrict some issues to articles I agree for some issues, but not for all issues. As you point out, NPOV isn't something we should try to enforce on User pages or Talk pages. But I view NOTCENSORED as an example of a policy whose spirit does have utility outside of article space, even if it's not intended to be a binding policy on those spaces. And the spirit tells us that trying to litigate what is or isn't offensive is a minefield. In article space, it risks POV issues. In user space, it risks the chilling effect I mentioned. I just don't believe anyone who claims that distinguishing offensive from acceptable is easy, and when decisions aren't easy we often look to admins to take the lead. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 12:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Just because something's hard (a minefield you claim) doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. NOTCENSORED doesn't exist because deciding what's offensive couldn't be achieved by a community reaching consensus, but because, in article space, we regard encyclopaedic value higher than the bar that someone somewhere is offended. Wikipedia:Offensive material exists because some material will be regarded as (potentially) offensive by reasonable people, so it isn't like we say "deciding what's offensive is too hard". We weigh the two and may decide that there's multiple other ways to achieve our mission without offence or shock. The issue that seemed to spark this discussion was that one user felt the need to tell other users what they think about trans women not being women, or something of that ilk, which I don't think anyone here would think is suitable for this project vs Twitter. It's a fairly classic "I want to declare my contentious politics" mistake. Questions being asked are whether to give examples or a list and how to go about it (e.g., be bold, ask on a forum page, delegate to admins, etc). The problem with citing NOTCENSORED in these discussions, is that it is a debate terminating move (even if you do later say you think we should exercise judgement). Even if you think you are referencing NOTCENSORED in a nuanced way, be aware that to many it is a nuclear weapon to silence any opposing view. People will skim your post and go away thinking Barnards.tar.gz claims we can't remove offensive material from user pages because NOTCENSORED, which I don't think is your point. Citing it here, even if you can see some similarities, is not IMO helpful. -- Colin°^Talk 19:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• No change. It's common sense to allow anyone to remove content that's extremely offensive person, over and above ordinary material likely to cause some degree of offense. It's highly disruptive and puts us into disrepute, akin to vandalism, which is also removed as soon as possible. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• No change - I think the key word that was missed in the nominator's interaction was "extremely". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:14, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Wrong question What are the "community norms"? Should the UCoC really be twisted so far as to apply to the situation that led to this RFC? The real issue behind this RFC seems to rest on those questions, not on the content of WP:UPNOT. The discussions at ANI and the pre-RFC section above both seem to have disagreed that "community norms" would support the user box in question being considered "extremely offensive" to fall under WP:UPNOT, nor has there been much agreement to the idea of bending the UCoC to that extent.
  As for the question asked, both the "extremely offensive" part called out and the part about "Very divisive or offensive material" in the table seem open to this sort of issue, and seems to come up time and time again when people with one viewpoint (and usually a belief in the paradox of tolerance) see a userbox supporting the opposing viewpoint. Anomie⚔ 19:38, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Status quo ± clarification sentence: I would avoid editing other people’s user pages but some things are so offensive they should not be on Wikipedia. While "offensive" may be subjective, we already accept that some things will be removed for that reason. WP:CFRD states that "grossly offensive" edits may be redacted. Perhaps we should have a clarification sentence regarding what sort of material can be summarily deleted by any editor (as opposed to needing input from an admin or wider consensus, or asking the author to remove it themselves). I would suggest that if an editor expects that the material is so offensive the edits could be redacted then they should feel able to delete it. Mgp28 (talk) 21:36, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Or continuing that thought, maybe we could change the word "extremely" to "grossly"? Mgp28 (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• No change - However if material is removed that is not "extremely offensive" then the change should be reverted and remover warned, or dealt with appropriately. Our real issue is to determine what "extremely" means. in our case example, liking a film is not offensive, even if content of the film offends some people. So that should not be removed based on that rule. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • How to avoid different interpretations is that we need a generally accepted essay on what "extremely offensive" means. We need to allow diverse people here, and they should be allowed to say they support various ideas or things that offend other people in order to show the point of view they are coming from. Now when it comes to offense, it is in the eye of the beholder, so often these people are choosing to be offended for political purposes. Content should not be removed because of this opinion. However if a user page is designed to cause offense, that is when it should be edited. Also deliberately promoting the material or ideas rather than a simple infobox may be pushing to far. On the topic of shat should be acceptable, anything that has been in political debate anytime in the last 50 years or so should be acceptable whatever side of opinion the user expresses. This applies particularly to current political debates and controversies. For example in our case here, people should be able to express support or opposition to transgenderism by an infobox or userpage statement. Behavioral issues by users are different, and not only by what they put in their userpage. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Quick comment: I don't think it's necessary to mention the Universal Code of Conduct in this RFC. That could potentially make a simple question more complicated. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. jp×g 07:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  My thinking in including it came from an extension of the argument about excluding stuff that was illegal where our servers were hosted. Because the WMF also kind of has a role? I get that the Universal Code of Conduct is controversial but the way I understand it the WMF can decide to overrule community consensus if it goes against it. I thought that anything that might be relevant should be brought into the discussion? Anyways, I'm kind of focused on other things at the moment. One of my relatives died yesterday so I was hoping to tie any loose ends before my wikibreak. I don't know how this is going to proceed from here but if anyone has questions or concerns, you can just ask at my talk page and I'll get back to you eventually. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, but it should be made even stronger. Wikipedia is not a social media platform, and users do not own their userpages. The inclusion of anything on Wikipedia should be contingent on whether it benefits the encyclopedia. Contentious content on userpages does not benefit the encyclopedia, but it does harm the collaborative environment that we need, and it's something that should be considered from the perspective of editor retention. There's a reason why they say you shouldn't talk about politics or religion at the dinner table: it invites conflict and creates bad blood. If you want to talk about these things online, good for you. Go start a blog. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, and I agree with the comment just above mine. I missed the ANI that prompted this as I was on a short holiday, but the relevant editor had previously been final-warned by me for transphobic language in edit summaries (relevant edit my warning), something which appears to have been missed in that discussion. Black Kite (talk) 08:19, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Current language seems fine to me. People should just not assume that anything potentially offensive is "extremely offensive". —Kusma (talk) 10:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Not out of compliance, but modify language - I like the suggestion in discussion above that a second sentence should be added highlighting "what is "extremely offensive" can be highly subjective and further complicated by the intent of the editor."

Above added by Nosebagbear. -The Gnome (talk) 14:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Question: Could we get a definition of "contentious material", please, from those who support its deletion from users' pages? And, while we're at it, could we also have, finally, some definition of "extremely offensive"? I put it to y'all that starting with that is "offensive" first of all would be the proper place to start a process, before any RfC. -The Gnome (talk) 14:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I generally support the current phrasing (I don't think we need some kind of massive overhaul), but I agree that we need to define extremely offensive. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I would personally describe "extremely offensive" as endorsing or glorifying extremism (think stuff like Nazism), terrorism, advocates for content or activities that is illegal or deemed dangerous in most countries (e.g. spreading of malware), discriminates people based on someone's demographical factors or beliefs (race, gender, sexuality, age, religion, etc.) and/or harasses other fellow editors (e.g. a list of baseless accusations about stuff that Editor XYZ did wrong, a list of "Editors I do not like", etc.) — Prodraxis {talk • contribs} (she/her) 15:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Prodraxis For reference, there are currently userboxes listed at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Politics that express support for terrorist organizations, violence and war, dislike of specific nations and nationalities, every variety of communism, and every dictator you can think of besides Hitler. All of these would fall under your definition. Many of them adorn the userpages of prominent members of the community. Would you hold that all of these should be considered "extremely offensive"? (I say yes, throw the lot out and scrutinize anyone using them.) And that's before we get into userboxes supporting the death penalty and abortion, both of which a sizeable portion of the population would consider to be violence. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  So your proposing to remove anything that could possible be viewed as controversial in any way? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 23:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  My opinion is a few comments up, but it applies even more to advocacy of hate, oppression, or violence. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'd say that an editor with a history of making edits like this and this using their userpage to support a work like this is intentionally being inflammatory. I think it's reasonable to find someone invalidating an entire group of people's existence (transgender people in this instance) contentious and extremely offensive. If we were talking about someone who said antisemitic things and had "I enjoy reading Mein Kampf" on their userpage, why would the problem be another editor removing said content because they find it offensive? I've never started a Wikipedia-policy RfC before, I just wanted to make sure that the way our guideline is phrased actually reflects practice. Because everybody at ANI says it should have been removed, just not by me. So if it's not true that any editor can act on what's at UPNOT, that should be changed. I'm trying to let all this go but the truth is I'm having such a hard time doing so. I've cried and lost sleep over this. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Hi @Clovermoss. I want you to know that, although I disagree with the initial action you took (removing the userbox), I think you had a very clear rationale for doing so, one that I can empathize with, and I think that your behavior subsequent to that has been exemplary and worthy of respect. You've done everything the way you should have - from asking for more feedback from the AN, to coming to the village pump and opening this RFC. I know that being at the center of a debate like this can be very stressful, and it can feel like you are being scrutinized and harshly judged. I want you to know that nobody here is scrutinizing or judging you - I think everyone here would agree that you are acting in good faith, and we need more people with your attitude towards dispute resolution, instead of people that want to yell and argue. These sorts of conversations are normal - please try not to take it personally - you've done the right thing by creating an RFC and I think everyone here respects you for it.

  I'll add one general thought: so far, I've noticed that the "no/change" votes have consisted of multiple complex sentences and in many cases, multiple paragraphs of thought and elucidation. The "yes/status quo" votes are almost all very short, saying something to the effect of "no change, this is common sense." I think the fact that this RFC exists is evidence that it's not common sense.

  I still maintain the view that continuing with the status quo will create more and more discordant situations within the community, like this one. Letting users apply "common sense" to understanding the term "extremely offensive" will almost certainly lead to the biases of the editor community being reflected in a purity spiral, the result of which will be a much more ideologically insular and less diverse community of editors. I see that I am not alone in this concern.

  A request to those who have voted 'yes/status quo'

  To those who have voted to keep the status quo - I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on the above - namely, how we can avoid situations like this while maintaining the current recommendation to remove "extremely offensive content", and how we can make sure that we don't end up in a situation where every userbox someone dislikes gets removed. I still think the best way to avoid these scenarios is to either adopt a laissez faire attitude towards userpages, with some very basic guardrails, or to institute an absolute ban on all expressions of identity and belief in userpages, including expressions that many users may find innocuous. I see maintaining the status quo as the worst course of action, but I'm open minded, and I'd like to hear some more details from the "status quo" voters regarding the concerns raised by the "no/change" voters. Pecopteris (talk) 21:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Firstly I'd like to add how sorry I am to read how this is affecting Clovermoss. I haven't perceived comments here as critical of your actions and I hope you will come to feel that way too. But I certainly appreciate that it must be horrible to feel you are at the centre of this debate.

  Regarding @Pecopteris:'s question:

  I wouldn't personally object to a more restrictive policy on user boxes. But many people have many of them. I assume they are attached to them and that it would be difficult to get consensus to do away with them. And if we try to prohibit only some of them then we come back to the question of deciding where offensive becomes unacceptably offensive.

  The opposite option of having virtually no rules just seems dangerous.

  I hadn't considered the example above where a user box is interpreted in the context of other edits. My interpretation of the line in UPNOT was that it referred to statements that would be independently offensive when read in isolation. I made reference to WP:CFRD's use of "grossly offensive" as I feel that is the sort of area where the threshold for unilateral action could reasonably be found. If you see something that maybe should be redacted then I think you should feel free to delete it. If something is objectionable but less urgent then other channels, such as admin involvement, would be more appropriate.

  The exact threshold of "extremely offensive" may shift over time. I think that's OK. Too precise a rule and we risk spawning a raft of Wikilawyers with carefully calibrated offensiveness that we struggle to get rid of.

  So after all this, I still feel that the sentence "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor" is OK. But I increasingly think that we need to add some further clarification so that people can be more confident that they are acting appropriately. Mgp28 (talk) 22:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Hi Clovermoss, I'm sorry you're having a hard time. There is a perfectly good rationale behind the RfC, and no-one is criticizing your actions. Maybe take a step back for a few days if you're feeling stressed– that's what I usually do. Cheers, Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 22:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I was trying to step back. I realized pretty much at the start of the RfC that this was affecting me strongly, which is why I said I'd take a step back. I did, somewhat, but curiousity and strong convictions prompted me to not do so completely. But it is probably for the best if I do step back further. Thanks for caring about me. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• No change, this is consistent with our community norm that extremely offensive material can be removed, collapsed, revdeled, or otherwise hidden from anywhere on wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• No change, and let me suggest that trying to provide a comprehensive list of what counts as extremely offensive is not such a good idea, even if your hope is that people will learn not to do those things from the list you make. There are relatively few sustained disputes on this point. I remember one of them over a user who wanted to say "This user is homophobic", and there has been an infamous userbox declaring "respect" for a certain dictator, but generally the rule is that if your content would cause good editors to feel like they don't belong because of characteristics named under the non-discrimination statements, then it should be removed, and, as always – as is absolutely routine in a collaborative project – if it's a borderline case, or you're not certain, then ask for help. Anyone who is concerned that "extreme" isn't extreme enough for them is invited to put typical hateful phrases into the search box and see what's been tolerated in userspace so far. Start with something simple like "I hate women", which gives me two hits in the userspace today. Stop when you've gotten it all cleaned up or are disgusted with humanity, whichever comes first. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• First choice leave it alone: Most people can tell the difference between “extremely offensive” material and merely disagreeable or personally offensive ideologies. Second choice, remove the sentence outright: the sort of content that should be removed should almost go without saying, and without that sentence, most editors should generally agree that cases of illegal content should be removed, and doing so unilaterally is fine (surely there’s policy elsewhere that covers illegal or targeted harassment etc?). Third choice, spend the next month and a half coming up with a watertight categorical system to prevent illegal content, content that condones illegal behaviours, calls to action, personal attacks, etc. I understand Herostratus’s motivation on limiting political content, but that really feels pretty illiberal as its own action (and I can’t see how that could be practically enforced—am I allowed to mention my race, my gender? Life is political, and as you’ve pointed out, so is Wikipedia). Honestly I just can’t see this as a problem… unless you personally have been attempting to remove conservative literature from userpages, Clovermoss? — HTGS (talk) 22:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  The origin-story of this RfC is that Clovermoss unilaterally removed a userbox from another editor's userpage that said, essentially, "this user likes the movie "What is a Woman?". Clover wisely sought feedback on their decision, which they believed to be a common-sense enforcement of the "extremely offensive content" policy. They found that there was much support for their decision, but far from unanimous consent that expressing a fondness for that film is "extremely offensive", and there was some limited concern that the "extremely offensive content" phrase could be taken as an invitation to invasively police and nitpick at userpages on political grounds. That's how we got here. I don't mean to speak for Clover, but I think the above is important context for this debate, since @HTGS specifically asked. Pecopteris (talk) 23:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, so don't change. For starters - this policy has been enforced for over fifteen years without issue. Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater over this one incident with the movie? I agree that "Extremely offensive" is subjective. Many things on Wikipedia are subjective - "significant coverage", for example. One of Wikipedia's founding principles is that rules are bendy. Subjectivity is not a bad thing. casualdejekyll 00:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with all of this. But as part of that, highlighting that it is subjective might ease the difficulties. Nosebagbear (talk) 08:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment- There are two connected, but distinct questions here: 1) Should some user page content be considered so offensive that it should be removed? and 2) If so, who should remove it?

My answer to the first question is: Yes. However, we need to set that bar fairly high.

My answer to the second question is: it should be an admin action. Further, I would require two admins to discuss and agree on that removal. This would ensure that the removal isn’t done by a) someone who is overly sensitive, or b) someone who has a cultural/political axe to grind. Blueboar (talk) 00:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• No change Having lived through the userbox wars, I think the current guideline has worked reasonably well for years. Personally, I pruned a number of userboxes off my user page during that period, and since have avoided any I think might be at all controversial. I do think that some leeway in what may be expressed on user pages should be allowed, but there should be limits. - Donald Albury 12:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

No change “extremely offense” is material that would constitute vandalism anywhere else, namely purely gratuitous shock content and unambiguous hate speech. Any other change would just be pushing a minority opinion on “userpages are a free speech platform” over “not a social media site” instead of forming a case-by-case consensus. Dronebogus (talk) 08:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Pecopteris put it well in comment above @23:41, 20 August. Alsee (talk) 20:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Hi, I was just wondering if everyone agreed with Snow Rise's assessment over at the now reopened ANI thread? There's a lot there so I suggest taking a look at everything for context, but in particular I was wondering if everyone agrees that Obviously no one should be going around directly antagonizing trans editors about their stated gender identities; that I believe should and would be treated as disruptive by this community. But merely having (or expressing) the abstract belief that a transwoman or transman is not a "real" woman or man is not considered by itself to be a WP:PA, WP:DISRUPTION, or other type of sanctionable offense, at this time. And if the response to CM's RfC is any indication, that's not likely to change any time soon. is an accurate summarization of the consensus at this RfC so far? I'm worried I'm too involved in all this to think clearly, especially given recent events in my life. But it doesn't feel quite right to speak for everyone else in the thread even if I'm not doing my best, so I figured it'd be useful. Maybe Novem Linguae is right and this RfC is unnecessary. Thoughts? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  I would disagree with the second part of the statement. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 01:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  Wow that "reopen" has kicked off a mess, the WP:RGW activists are out in force there. And I'm also not at all surprised that you're again asking a misleading question trying to fish for support for your viewpoint. I think Snow Rise's statement is supported by the comments in this RFC: the community is indeed divided on whether expressing an abstract viewpoint should be seen as an attack on particular individuals, and this RFC is no exception. I wouldn't characterize it as "an accurate summarization of the consensus at this RfC" since the RFC is asking an entirely different question and a summarization should address that and other direct points people have been making here rather than trying to analyze sentiment on a related but not directly raised question. Anomie⚔ 13:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  Whether it's an accurate assessment of this RFC is, almost, secondary to that, But merely having (or expressing) the abstract belief that a transwoman or transman is not a "real" woman or man is not considered by itself to be a WP:PA, WP:DISRUPTION, or other type of sanctionable offense, at this time, is blatantly wrong, contrary to the TOS, and not in step with how often editors rightly get blocked for obvious transphobic statements. I'm rather shocked about Snow Rise's statement, to be frank. Capeo (talk) 17:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  Well, can you point us to somewhere, anywhere, that expressing this belief has been codified by the community as disruption or a PA? A policy, a consensus discussion in a centralized community space? Can you give a diff to a community sanction discussion where an editor was blocked merely for expressing "the abstract belief that a transwoman or transman is not a 'real' woman or man"?

  Because I've been following this issue for a while and I have seen no such conclusion by the community at large anywhere on this project, as yet, and not for lack of observing. You're quite correct that editors have been sanctioned for sharing transphobic views, but that broad description of conduct covers a lot of territory, including direct harassment and bigotry. But I'm unaware of so much as a single case where the community has endorsed the perspective that such an abstract belief, absent more direct harassment, disruption, or other violations of policy, makes a person unfit for this community or to contribute to the project.

  This RfC is the closest thing we have had to testing this proposition. Nominally it is about whether or not the policy should be updated to reflect the feedback that Clovermoss got in the original ANI thread--which uniformly said that she should not have been editing another community members user page, but that she was unlikely to face blow back for doing it once, in those circumstances. But I think it's quite clear that her deeper motivation for broaching this subject as she did was not affect any change to the specific procedural language of how to handle UPNOT violations, but rather to send up a flare in a highly public space to try to find support for her (understandable) belief that the specific content in the case that brought her to ANI should be regarded as "highly objectionable" by default. That is why a number of respondents have commented about the peculiar framing and their difficulty in knowing how to respond to the prompt.

  So regardless of what the ostensible question of this RfC is, and the manner in which respondents have had to channel their !votes as a consequence, this was clearly intended as a referendum on whether the very specific conduct of expressing the subjective belief that transmen and trasnwomen are not "real" men or women constitutes a sanctionable activity, even when it is not directed at specific individuals. And I feel most of the respondents have treated it accordingly. And what I see (with very mixed feelings, let me assure you), is what I have always seen in the last couple of years whenever this issue has come up in the case of an individual user's conduct: most community members feel that banning any expression of such an abstract belief is a bridge too far.

  And this is exactly what I warned Clovermoss to expect from perspectives at this time, and is one of the reasons I rather wish the matter had not been raised prematurely and in this hasty fashion, just because she didn't like being told at ANI (again, uniformly, and including feedback from major trans issues advocates on the project) that she does not have the right to unilaterally delete such expressions. I think her approach here is only going to harden perspectives further and actually set back the progress of policy in this area, if I am blunt. I know her heart was in the right place, and as she has disclosed, this is apparently a raw nerve for her right now, but honestly, this was an ill-calculated, ill-timed, ill-prepared, and ill-formulated approach.

  As for the fact that some are confused (or even "shocked") that consensus would be summarized thus, I feel what is very clearly happening here is that a lot of people are making the assumption that because they find this kind of opinion highly objectionable, that of course the community would find that a statement of such a belief is per se disruptive and makes the person sharing that view incompatible with contributing to this project. On one level, I sympathize with that impulse: I too find such views ill-informed and regressive.

  But putting aside the assessment of whether or not the community should adopt such a view, I've been following the on-project discussions around this issue for some years now, and as a purely descriptive matter, I can tell you that any time such a standard has been suggested (again, always before CM's proposal it was in the case of individual behavioural discussions), there has been significantly more opposition to such a straight-forward proposition than there has been support. And I believe this ratio is currently being replicated in this RfC.

  So Capeo, if you have counter-examples of people being sanctioned merely for expressing a subjective belief of skepticism about trans self-identity, I would be more than happy to incorporate them into my read of community feedback on this issue. But there's a big difference between you and I agreeing that a given statement of belief is backwards and ignorant and the community having completely proscribed it as a view incompatible with activity on this project, as a matter of policy. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment (very minor quibble) This RFC is strangely worded, such that an answer in the affirmative actually opposes the RFC. I don’t think any editors have been confused by this, but it caught me off guard as a lurker. Mach61 (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• No Change While I would like the section to be more detailed than it currently is, I know that would be difficult to accomplish and get consensus on. And considering some of the statements for change (ie removal) above includes editors arguing for allowing any sort of offensive content, I'm fine with keeping with status quo. Because I don't want such editors or anyone else to be pushing abusive statements on their user pages. Silverseren^C 01:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Ambivalent. On the one hand, WP:MALVOLIO. On the other hand, if something really is extremely offensive, go ahead and revert it. On the third hand, if you do that, you might get reverted. And on the fourth hand, a situation like that will probably end up being dealt with via administrator action. All of that was my roundabout way of saying that I don't think that there is any kind of language that can legislate this, and the best way to deal with a truly hurtful situation is to bring the editor who is at fault to the appropriate noticeboard. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  Assuming that the extremely offensive content is the kind of stuff that's appropriate for a noticeboard in the first place. Some of the "extremely offensive" user page content that I've personally seen includes:

  • claiming that an editor is a child rapist,
  • a list of the sexual acts the poster wants to perpetrate on the editor,
  • fake offers to engage in sexual acts with the reader, and
  • a description of how the poster plans to torture and kill the editor.

  The work a few years back that makes it hard for vandals to edit other people's userpages was a good idea, but it doesn't solve everything, and it isn't retroactive. When these kinds of things come up, it's not necessarily a good idea to encourage everyone to read and discuss them. It's often a better idea to revert it and then e-mail a friendly admin or Wikipedia:Oversight to make it disappear. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  @WhatamIdoing, I think everyone would agree that it's not a good idea to amplify the sort of content you've mentioned. Posts soliciting sex or engaging in the vile and illegal subjects you've listed should certainly be removed first, and discussed with an administrator after the fact. The issue seems to be that some editors have, in good faith, taken "extremely offensive" to mean something much broader than what you've outlined.

  I think the consensus here so far is that

  • 1) there's no current need to change the language at WP:UPNOT.
  • 2) the label of "extremely offensive", while left to the discretion of editors, should be applied sparingly, and editors probably shouldn't be citing UPNOT as a license to remove passing remarks about major political and social issues of the day from the userpages of other editors.
  • 3) @Clovermoss acted in good faith here, and followed the letter of UPNOT, but slightly missed the mark in terms of the unwritten spirit behind the words "extremely offensive".

  Is that a fair summary of the consensus of the discussion as it stands currently? If anyone does not think so, please summarize the state of the discussion as you see it. Pecopteris (talk) 20:55, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  Perhaps the difficulty is that what's "extremely" offensive (rather than "average-ly" offensive) is going to depend on the (sub)culture you're in. Or perhaps the difficulty is a sort of rhetorical inflation, so that "extremely" no longer carries a meaning. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

• No change - This seems in line with WP:CIVILITY and community norms (for example, the deletion of certain offensive user boxes). Having extremely offensive material on your user page does not contribute to building an encyclopedia. Quite the opposite. Nosferattus (talk) 00:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
• Probably needs a rewrite TBD - I think that what some of the people who don't see the problem may not understand is that saying a trans woman is not a "real" woman is only one step away from saying that she is not a "real person" and dehumanization is a slippery slope. However. The Streisand effect is also at work here. I had never heard of this movie. I sometimes look at userboxes, but not often and not in detail. I got rid if mine a few years ago. I would question the THEREness of someone who would go out of their way to proclaim that they like a dehumanizing movie (I guess that is what it is?) but probably only to the extent of avoiding them if possible. As the joke goes, it isn't exhibitionism if you have to stand on a ladder and use binoculars to see it. There is enough dysfunction and POV pushing that is actually interfering with the creation of content without attempting to regulate self-expression, and btw fwiw I say this as an editor who identifies as "they" by choice and not default. I would say the policy could likely use a rewrite, but I think that there are bigger issues on wikipedia let alone in the world than whether someone chooses to do the wikipedia equivalent of wearing a Trump hat Elinruby (talk) 02:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
• Keep and add clarification. I think it should stay, but the other editors here are correct that "extremely offensive" is poorly defined. I don't think the original userbox which led to this RfC (enjoying a film which itself expresses a very strong POV) falls under the scope of "extremely offensive", but I can't blame Clovermoss for thinking that it did. Obviously we cannot define every way that a statement could be extremely offensive, but we could add a sentence along the lines of Examples of extremely offensive statements include ethnic slurs, calls for violence, and sexualization of children. If I was named BDFL of Wikipedia, I'd get rid of all userboxes that express pro- or anti- opinions on political, social, religious, nationalistic or ideological issues since Wikipedia isn't about that. But since I do not have that power, as long as the current consensus is that such statements are allowed then we should have a narrowly-defined policy for when to unilaterally remove them. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 21:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  "Calls for violence" is broader than you might initially expect. What about, say, "Ukraine shouldn't surrender"? That's a call for violence in the sense that it's a call to continue a war. Loki (talk) 23:30, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  For that matter some above and in the ANI discussion have stated that they consider "transphobia" (under their own subjective definition, of course) to be equal to the "racist ideology" already used as an example in the guideline, so they'd probably feel the same about a comparison with "ethnic slurs". Anomie⚔ 00:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

  I think commentary on geopolitical conflicts don't really fall under "calls for violence", though personally I don't think they really belong on Wikipedia either. My wording was just an example, I'm open to other phrasing. Immediate removal without discussion should be reserved only for cases where the content would be near-universally condemned, such as "X group should be executed". @Anomie: There are certainly transphobic things that would fall under the banner of "extreme". Any userbox endorsing violence against them or using language like that found in LGBT slang#Slurs 2 should be summarily removed (and probably brought to a noticeboard). I just don't think that if something could subjectively be considered transphobic, it automatically counts as extreme. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:50, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

  I just don't think that if something could subjectively be considered transphobic, it automatically counts as extreme My point is that there seem to be people who disagree with you on that part. Anomie⚔ 19:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, keep. The general idea of this language is very good and I definitely don't want to get rid of it in spirit. I agree that it could maybe use some clarification, but I don't know what particular clarification would be appropriate (as I pointed out above, seemingly obvious clauses can be pretty fraught in practice) and I'm not entirely confident that it's even possible to word such a clarification well. Loki (talk) 23:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
• In summary no change. This is a very open question, so this isn't an absolute comment on all potential changes, but to the question of whether to simply reopen the guideline I don't see great benefit. This is an inherently subjective topic, and the premise is helpful in spirit but simply impossible to nail down in any sort of specific way. en.wiki will not solve the question of acceptable speech which has dogged societies for time immemorial. Keeping vague in-spirit wording fits the en.wiki approach of a common law style individual judgment backed up by community discussion quite well. CMD (talk) 03:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC: Automatically semi-protect Today's Featured Article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should WP:SEMI be amended to add something to the effect of "Today's Featured Article (TFA) is always semi-protected from the day before it is featured on the Main Page through the day after."? – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Rationale: This is a change that's already been brought into effect on most days thanks to the valiant efforts of Courcelles, and one that is long overdue. While in the early days of Wikipedia people might not have known that it was something any old schmuck could edit, these days it's such a cultural mainstay that the benefits of letting our "parlor" be accessible and tweakable by all is far outweighed by the costs of letting vandals replace our most visible page with "poop shid fard xD". I understand that the FAC crowd can run into issues of stodgy Toryism and that can possibly motivate opposers, but the months-long "trial run" of Courcelles already semi-protecting TFAs a day in advance has caused no complaints and no major issues, and saved many headaches from vandal-reverters; those good-faith editors who are needed to mildly tweak articles that have already undergone rigorous review can wait until they become confirmed.

All in all, this is something that should have been done years ago and has already has local consensus at TFA. Hopefully the fire has gone out of this decades-long debate, but in any case I feel like it is high time to implement this change. (Also, any specific details like how long it should be protected outside of its Featured Day is fine; I don't want the best to be the enemy of the good here.) – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:36, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Some relevant links. Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/TFA Protector Bot 3, prior RFC for a trial, and some analysis of that trial. Courcelles (talk) 21:41, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support as proposer. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:36, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support per User:TFA Protector Bot/Semi-protection trial, as I discussed at WT:TFA. Some prominent examples there:
  • Yusuf I of Granada received four oversighted edits in four minutes before being semiprotected
  • Streets (song) received six revdelled edits in one minute before being semiprotected
  • Rachel Dyer (semiprotected for the second half of its TFA period) received three oversighted edits and 14 generic vandalism edits in its unprotected period
  • Between every not-automatically-semiprotected article in the experiment, there were thirty not-reverted-that-day edits by IPs and non-autoconfirmed editors, of which six were removing vandalism (this is a quick hand count, and the page isn't easily structured for one, so this might be off) -- meaning the net of "not directly caused by vandalism" IP edits productive enough not to be reverted the same day was below the number of pre-semi vandal edits in just these three articles
• I think the results of that experiment alone make a clear case for the benefit to the project and the relative lack of collateral damage. This is just treating edits by their raw 'outcomes' -- other specific complaints, such as the number of complaints in the WT:TFA thread about graphic sexual vandalism in particular, strengthen the case. Vaticidalprophet 21:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  In fact this recent me doing it manually started because hardcore porn stayed in a TFA for too long. Courcelles (talk) 21:53, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'm supporting anyway, but two of your three examples fail to prove your point - if the vandal was willing to game autoconfirmed to post more oversightable/revdelable edits after manual semi-protection was applied and force the TFA to be ECP-ed then the outcome would not have been very different had the bot applied semi-protection, as you can see from the cases where the bot did semi-protect around the same time. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support the rare useful edit we might get is not worth the cost of showing readers grossly vandalized articles. Courcelles (talk) 21:55, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. TFA's have always been suspect to vandalism and other nonsensical edits for as long as I have been editing, and semi-protecting for a few days will go a long way to clear up this issue. The Night Watch (talk) 21:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support as a sensible measure to protect the readers' experience. Schazjmd (talk) 22:04, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. This has been long in the works, tracing back to the pending-changes trial two-and-a-half years ago at this point. The anti-vandalism benefits of semi-protection are clear, and I'll leave it to others to analyze those. But I want to focus in on the potential downside, which is that, as the "encyclopedia anyone can edit," we want to keep editing rights as open as possible to invite newcomers. As someone who focuses on newcomer aid, this is something I care about a lot. And I submit for consideration that a TFA is a terrible place for a newcomer to start editing. TFAs are high-quality, recently updated featured articles. By definition, they are considered essentially complete, and to the extent that they have flaws, they are generally things that only experienced editors can spot. So what is the newcomer experience editing them? It's the experience of changing something, and then getting rapidly reverted, because the thing didn't actually need changing, since it's a featured article. That's a bitey experience, no matter how polite the revert. So semi-protection is not just a boon for readers, who will encounter less vandalism, and for experienced editors, who will have less to patrol, but also for newcomers, who will be redirected toward friendlier waters to dip their toes into editing. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Clearly sensible proposal. SportingFlyer T·C 22:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Support. Abso-bad wording-lutely. Prevents LTAs and just random teenagers from vandalizing a very highly visible part of Wikipedia. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:18, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• I'm in favor of this, but let's not anybody fool ourselves - it won't decrease the total amount of vandalism, and maybe not even the number of times our readers see vandalism; it's going to make it harder for us to find and revert. Some of it'll spill over to pages linked from TFA; some to other pages linked from the main page; some of it to random pages where - if Cluebot or some pagewatcher doesn't happen to revert it - it might stick around for days or weeks. —Cryptic 22:32, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Most vandalism is opportunistic, not complex LTA subterfuge plots. (I remember in sixth-grade-equivalent, my class was reading an article and I kept seeing vandalism coming up on it, and reverting it manually/longhand from "aha! I read a page about this, I know how to fix this"; a patroller who could act faster was very confused to come across what looked like an IP self-reverting, because all the vandals in this case were my classmates.) I'm very familiar with two of the other big-four processes (DYK and OTD), and vandalism rates for them are consistently much, much lower than TFA vandalism stats. I don't think we'll see massive overspill in the same way that most bored kids looking at an article in class are vandalising it, and not going out of their way to vandalise the third article linked instead. Vaticidalprophet 22:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  In addition to this, the whole draw of people vandalizing the featured article, for people who are doing that, is the fact that it is extremely prominent and people are "forced" to see it. Gnomingstuff (talk) 19:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per above, as it seems that many TFAs already require semi-protection because of edits that need oversight, revdel, or rollback. There might be a possibility that the vandalism would just spread onto articles that are linked from the TFA blurb, but it is clear that semi-protecting the TFA would halt the worst of the damage. For example, on 23 Wall Street, it only took 14 minutes for someone to vandalize the infobox with a sexually explicit image (warning: NSFW). And somehow that edit is still fully visible in that article's revision history. Imagine how much worse it is for articles where the vandalism is so bad that it has to be RD'd or OS'd.
  I also agree with Sdkb that "a TFA is a terrible place for a newcomer to start editing". By definition, a TFA should showcase the very best work of Wikipedia, but we also encourage people to be bold, which sometimes creates a conflict. In my experience at least, newcomers' edits to TFAs often create errors even if they're editing in good faith, like this edit which created a run-on sentence that stayed for an hour. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. (EC) I help administer the main page and patrol WP:ERRORS. The issue of TFA vandalism has been brought up often enough at Errors as well as at WT:TFA that I'm all too aware for the need to be proactive in this area. Our most visible articles should simply not be available to vandals during the short period of being on the main page. Schwede66 00:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Quick comment: Paragraphs 2 and 3 of the RFC statement don't seem particularly neutral and brief to me, and it may be better to move those to a support !vote. WP:RFCNEUTRAL. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support, largely per my thoughts here. "The Encyclopedia That Anyone Can Edit" does not mean that all articles can and should be free for anyone to edit at all times. Recent FA promotions should ideally be in good enough shape that editing by brand new editors isn't need while its on the main page; most of the prose work I've seen done to TFAs on the main page is really just a net neutral at best and a net negative much of the time. If we're really going to say as an encyclopedia that the content writers matter, than we shouldn't be taking what is theoretically some of the best and hardest-worked content we have and blinding subject it to an open season for vandalism. Hog Farm _Talk 02:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, good point.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support since admins have been doing this unofficially for some time, in response to lame vandalism, without the protection being a problem.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  How would you know if a semi-protection was a problem? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  If there were useful suggested edits showing up on the talk page, that would be an indication that semi-protection has a cost. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Has anyone actually done that analysis though? I didn't think to when I wrote the trial report, although I guess that there weren't that many edits obviously per talk page edit requests. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support I was skeptical of this early on, even as I was writing the trial report (which I apologize for dropping the ball on and never finishing). What finally convinced me was Sdkb's comment above, that editing the TFA would fail to provide a desirable or representative experience for new good-faith users, so all of the necessary effort separating wheat from chaff is wasted even from an idealistic perspective. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Weak Support, prefer Pending Changes Protection Instead. I second the concerns that many of the above editors have raised, though I do think that it is worth considering the possibility of semi-protecting TFA could raise the possibility of contradicting how anyone can edit Wikipedia, even if technically creating an account and staying for 10 days makes it anybody. There is the potential that this could discourage new editors from joining. It's a potential false pretense which could discourage. I would suggest we look at pending changes protection instead to mitigate this concern, as still reasonable good faith edits could be made with reviewer approval, while still allowing new users to contribute constructively as per our mission. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Pending changes protection has been shown to not work well with heavily edited pages due to the amounts of edits that can accrue if the page is not constantly watched. I don't think pending changes would work well in a potentially high-volume situation like TFA and would probably end up causing several new problems while doing little to alleviate the current ones. Hog Farm _Talk 02:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • PC was tried for this in 2021 after initial support in an RFC. But when it came time to evaluate, a bunch of people ignored the trial entirely and just opposed on principle (along the lines of Hog Farm's comment just above) with no supporting data. That RFC concluded that people would rather try semi-protection, which eventually happened, and now we're (finally) evaluating that trial here. Anomie⚔ 11:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support, I'll be quick and brief for now since I need a bit of time to formally gather my thoughts. This is clearly needed and already technically done unofficially by admins. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 02:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support TFA has often suffered high amount disruption sometimes even through semi-protection, hopefully the disruption will be reduced thanks to semi-protection. Lightoil (talk) 03:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support It's a balancing act. Preemptively protecting pages is not something that should be taken lightly, but we should also not entertain routine vandalism of what is supposed to be "Wikipedia's best work". I would also agree with Sdkb that, save for a few cases, it is probably in the best interest of everyone involved that protection be applied. —⁠PlanetJuice (talk • contribs) 04:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support—appears slam-and-shut per User:TFA Protector Bot/Semi-protection trial. 〜 Festucalex • talk 04:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - seems like a self-evidently good idea, which has already been implemented with good results. Community consensus for this course of action seems overwhelming and essentially unanimous. Pecopteris (talk) 04:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support As explained above, inviting new editors to tweak a polished TFA will not help those new editors. Also, it is not productive to feature a highly visible vandal magnet. Johnuniq (talk) 05:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Can't really see a downside, as long as the unprotecting stays automatic as well. Lulfas (talk) 07:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Snow close as support. There's no realistic chance that this will fail, and rightly so.—S Marshall T/C 07:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Actually I believe this did fail in the past. Or maybe I'm thinking about something else. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 10:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  It seems it did often enough to get added to WP:PEREN. Good example of WP:CCC I guess, but IMO this should still run for longer than a few hours. Anomie⚔ 11:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  If no one objects or beats me to it, I'll probably snow close this after two days. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 18:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  While there's overwhelming support right now, given how controversial this has been in the past, I think a snow NAC from an involved editor isn't ideal. It's a very high-profile RfC -- there are plenty of uninvolved editors aware of it who could close. Vaticidalprophet 15:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Should have happened a long time ago. Stifle (talk) 08:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support as proposer :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serial Number 54129 (talk • contribs) 09:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support, leaving TFA open to general editing looks like a net negatove. Semi is much better than Pending Changes (which is just frustrating to everyone involved). —Kusma (talk) 10:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support per the local consensus on WT:TFA, and per the trial report. – SD0001 (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Strong Support -- Very overdue. Off topic but along the same line, but it would also be nice to see the subjects of Google Doodles, semiprotected as a matter of course as well especially for those articles with BLP issues. -- Dolotta (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I would oppose protection based on Google Doodles. If the article is of mediocre quality, it could benefit from editing by new editors. —Kusma (talk) 15:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. While TFA is invariably supposed to showcase the highest-quality articles (and thus most likely doesn't need to be edited much by new/unregistered users), articles about the subjects of Google Doodles vary significantly in quality. I have seen many start- and C-class Google Doodle subjects, which can benefit from additional edits. On the other hand, there is an argument to be made that Google Doodles also attract vandalism, like on this start-class article. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support WP:SNOW TfAs have always recieved lots of vandalism and other nonsense and this will prevent said nonsense from occurring. — Prodraxis {talk • contribs} (she/her) 15:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Prodraxis: A discussion about a major change like this, particularly when it's been discussed many times before with no consensus, should be allowed to run for at least one full week. WP:SNOW is for less consequential cases in which consensus is both clear and has no realistic prospect of changing. Kurtis ^(talk) 22:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• I am actually shocked to see myself type this, as an old hardliner, but begrudgingly Support doing this. At my core as a Wikipedian, it crushes me to take down a pillar of Wikipedia, and I don't do it lightly, but the data cited above is clear. I may be old and set in my ways, but I am also easily convinced to change if you do the leg work and put together a convincing argument backed by data. It's hard to argue with the data provided by @Vaticidalprophet:. It is a sad day for Wikipedia; but it has come nonetheless. --Jayron32 15:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support per the given data; I had an article on my watch list go to DYK and saw an uptick in edits; I can't imagine how much worse TFA gets. Doing this automatically will just remove the burden from admins of doing it manually every day. SilverTiger12 (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support very long overdue, it's unfortunate that it has to come to this, but the downsides of having to deal with vandalism seriously outweigh any potential upsides. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Confirming that this refers to the article, not its talk page. North8000 (talk) 17:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support – Typically I would say that protection shouldn't be preemptive, but there is enough history of vandalism to TFA to justify this. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 20:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - basically every IP edits on TFAs are vandalism. And as stated above, recent FAs have been so thoroughly scrutinised that there isn't much of value that random drive-by editors with little editing experience can add. FunkMonk (talk) 20:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. SWinxy (talk) 21:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support per above. Therapyisgood (talk) 21:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Helps anyone acting in good faith, including new editors whom might get bitten, per above arguments. —siroχo 21:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Okay, fine, I'll go ahead and be that guy (although don't let my one oppose stop an early close if it's merited). The rule about not protecting TFA was put in place for good and proper reasons, even as it has become more and more frequent for it to be ignored and TFA semi-protected anyway. If vandalism happens, just revert it. But let people's first experience with Wikipedia potentially include really changing it. The main compelling worry is Sdkb's above, that "letting people make a change just to troll them by probably reverting it, even if it was good faith," is an even worse on-boarding experience than a semi-protected article. But... what about the times where there's a genuine improvement? My understanding was that at least back in the day, articles usually exited a TFA stint better than they started it. Much of this will be from edits from logged-in users, of course, but some can be from anonymous IPs. If this means main-page watchers need to do some more reverts in order to let the good edits through - oh well, just do some extra reverts. A small price to pay for ensuring people get the (correct) idea that yes, you really can change Wikipedia. SnowFire (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think the idea is really important, though in the sort of way Sdkb does ("I tried to do X and was immediately reverted, you personally need to tell me why" is the overwhelming-constant flood you get from discussing Wikipedia absolutely anywhere, ever, and none of those people become happy editors). But it's not really what the stats bear out -- there are markedly more vandalism edits to the unprotected articles in the trial than there are not-reverted-the-same-day IP and unconfirmed edits. Even "reverted the same day" non-vandalism edits doesn't add that many more. There are other sections of the main page that don't attract nearly that much vandalism while still attracting views and edits. TFA is low-hanging fruit for impulse vandalism because it's the very first, so it gets more proportionately than its pageview share -- it's not rare for DYK or OTD to get views-per-hour overlapping with TFA range, but I see far less vandalism on high-viewed DYK/OTDs. Vaticidalprophet 22:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support—I find the case for semi-protecting articles on the main page to be persuasive. I wonder if we could also add a notice at the top of the edit window for semi'd main page articles explaining why editing is currently unavailable. Kurtis ^(talk) 23:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. (Unrelatedly: That perennial proposals page seems overly negative) casualdejekyll 23:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. I understand the concern that's been raised in the past about this being a preventative action when we generally avoid using protection in that way, but I would argue that this is a unique case where though the specific article being vandalized changes from day to day, there is consistent vandalism of the TFA. The trial run has shown good results, edit requests continue to work, and realistically I find it unlikely that semiprotection on the TFA will harm the project or discourage potential new contributors. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 01:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Neutral Oppose: Okay, I originally supported this with reservations, then I tacitly opposed it per SnowFire's argument, and now I'm sort of neutral. Read the page at WP:PERENNIAL, now I'm opposed again. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 01:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support if changes are needed they can be proposed on the talk page, as a featured item I would expect those who created it are watching it closely and can deal with genuine problems quickly. Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 01:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Every time an article I have brought to FAC comes to TFA, there is a wave of vandalism unless someone protects it. Usually it is up for a few hours before the vandals prompt an admin to do so. Many editors oppose articles they have nominated being TFA for this reason. If it were just one article it subjected to this it would have been indefinitely protected years ago. The amount of time and effort that it will save for all concerned more than justifies protection, not to mention that the purpoe is to showcase our very best work, not how easily it is trashed by vandals. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Personally I never understood why this wasn't already a the standard, especially considering we do protect images through Commons. While I understand the argument about new editors, I think this is a pipe-dream with regards to TFA; the vast majority of non-semi editing on TFA articles is trolling, vandalism, etc. Good-faith new editors can still find articles to edit through ITN, DYK, and OTD (and in fact, these are more likely to be in need of improvement and are generally easier to edit than TFA). The trial demonstrably worked. Curbon7 (talk) 06:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Curbon7: AFAIK we only (fully) protect images that are on the main page directly. We don't protect images that are in other articles linked to from the main page, not even TFA. E.g. Commons:File:1998 - Tricolore (France) (4170715889).jpg still seems to be editable despite it being the second image in TFA 1998 FIFA World Cup final. We also fully protect the main page and all the templates that it uses, and this includes the TFA blurb, for the same reason we protect images on the main page. The temptation, even for confirmed editors to mess around with something appearing on a page seen by millions is considered too great. TFA is also fairly high visibility but not anywhere near as high as the main page, hence why this proposal is only for semi protection. And I'm fairly sure we still won't be automatically protecting images on TFA which aren't on the main page even if this passes for several reasons but especially that it's not going to cross well to commons (unlike with full protection where it's good enough). This has beans implications I guess. Edit: Just noticed the proposal below which further demonstrates my point although I didn't think of NFCC lead images when I wrote that which I agree per below do have even greater beans implications. Nil Einne (talk) 10:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per proposal; overdue. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 10:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. TFAs always has vandals and disruptive editors unless it was already protected. Just like Curbon above, I don't understand why this hasn't been done a long time ago. TheCorvetteZR1^{(The Garage)} 14:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support for obvious reasons. I don't buy the argument that this will divert vandalism elsewhere. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support This would benefit the readers of Wikipedia while reducing the hassle that our volunteer community has to deal with. XOR'easter (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support maybe the case for trading off security for openness was stronger when Wikipedia was more of an emerging website, but it doesn't make sense in 2023. – Teratix ₵ 04:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support: clear need for protection. This will take an unnecessary strain off of patrollers. Any disadvantages are clearly outweighed. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 20:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Strong support Of the nearly 70 TFAs I have helped get to FA and nominated for TFA, I cannot remember a single occasion where the article was improved to any appreciable extent by an unconfirmed editor on the day and the day after it was TFA. It is almost always vandalised multiple times by IPs and unconfirmed editors, and many times it has been semi'ed rapidly after the new front page has been loaded due to relentless vandalism. The "potentially high quality contributors" can start a thread on the talk page. The trial has worked, let's lock it in. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:21, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Support and WP:SNOW close for reasons mentioned above, the risks of keeping the pages unprotected are much higher than the benefits. Chaotic Enby (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose (though I know its snowing). "The encyclopedia anyone can edit" is sorta a key manta and protecting TFA works against that. I fully understand the persistent vandalism issue but I think that a needed solution is a way for yet-registered editors to be able to obviously contribute should be in place. If this means we should have a message to direct them to the talk page to provide feedback on the top of the TFA's article, so be it. --Masem (t) 13:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  We already have something like this in place with {{pp}}. IT's just that it's never seen because we always add the small parameter so it's not intrusive. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 14:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  It would be preferable to have a specialized template for TFA, not making it small and with language to both explain why one cannot edit the page directly (to avoid vandalism) and to use the talk page for suggestions. Masem (t) 14:33, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Ah that is fair. Maybe a variation of the pp template could be made for such a purpose since it already fits quite well for the purpose. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 14:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  We already have an edit notice for people editing TFA; it would be much better to tweak that notice than to bother casual readers with the internal workings of Wikipedia. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 15:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support basically per Peacemaker67. The most any of my TFA's ever "benefited" from IP or unconfirmed editing were the addition of benign punctuation. The tradeoff was vandalism and good faith shuffling and rewriting of text in ways to make it drift away from the sources (and specific editorial decisions which had consensus at FAn). What good is the principle if it is doing us no good? -Indy beetle (talk) 19:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support I'm sympathetic to the notion that this is an opportunity for readers to learn that editing is possible, but I think the potential harms far outweigh the benefit here. Sam Walton (talk) 19:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. The edit histories of several of my FAs are now littered with a page or two of TFA-related garbage edits and reverts, including some very appalling image vandalism. It's simply a waste of editor time not to have the TFA semi-protected. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:09, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support – This always feels like a game: the TFA goes online and is okay for the first few hours, a ton of vandalism occurs and then the article is put on semi. No need to waste the valuable time of editors cleaning up TFAs time and time again, just start it on semi! Aza24 (talk) 23:49, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - and in the long term, I think Wikipedia needs to disallow anonymous editing entirely. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 22:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support this is an encyclopedia for readers, who would only see benefits from this (rather minor) proposal's enaction. Readers can be editors, hence the existence of maintenance templates, but most are not, so it isn't worth the possible vandalism to allow editors to "cut their teeth" on an already good article. Mach61 (talk) 13:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• Request for close it has been a week, and there is overwhelming consensus that is unlikely to change. I'll ping @TFA Protector Bot and its handlers @Legoktm, The Earwig, and Enterprisey. I'll leave it up to the closer whether to also close the sub-RfC on the images. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - Lock out trolls and vandals. This should have been policy long ago. Carrite (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Sub RfC: Upload protection of fair use infobox/lead images for TFA's

We've had issues where vandals will modify the infobox/lead image of an article. These images are usually fully protected, but when they're fair use, because they aren't usually shown on the main page, they're usually left unprotected. We've had issues where these images are changed by vandals, such as recently with The Playboy, where the infobox image was changed to an image of Goatse (see Talk:The_Playboy#goatse_as_cover_image) As such, I propose the automatic full protection full upload protection of lead/infobox images for featured article when they are on the front pages, regardless of whether they are shown on the main page or not. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support Per nom. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• ? Wouldn't upload protection be more important there? — xaosflux ^Talk 20:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I am fine with either full or upload protection, but I assume full protection includes upload protection? Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:08, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Hemiauchenia, these are apples and oranges. The following actions can be protected: "edit", "move", "upload". The following protection levels exist for each one: "semi", "extended-confirmed", "template editor" and "full". ~ ToBeFree (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, not common enough attack, don't protect pre-emptively. Just WP:RBI. —Kusma (talk) 20:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Weak support upload protection again, requires more tech savvy than simply editing the text, but possibly goes into "might as well" territory. All bets are off with full protection, though– John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. SWinxy (talk) 21:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• support - still unsure about the above proposal but this seems obvious. Nobody's being introduced to editing by replacing the tfa image. It's rare but it makes sense as a precaution given how damaging such a swap can be. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support for similar reasons to my support !vote above (and the above proposal). In addition, while there are quite clearly constructive reasons that new and unregistered editors might edit a page, constructive cases for uploading a new version of the TFA's lead image strike me as exceedingly rare (honestly, probably nonexistent). Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 01:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Leaning support per above for three reasons 1) this has proven to be a method of attack in the past and due to mediawiki caching lag has proven to be a trickier one to clean up after 2) our non-free content guidelines are by nature opaque enough that this isn't really something newer users should be messing with anyway and 3) TFA are generally vetted enough that between either a recent FAC or the TFA rerun selection process the stuff we're running up there should theoretically be in good enough shape that major changes to the lead image would need discussion, not unilateral change, anyways. Yes, there's some poorer older FAs but between greater awareness in the TFA scheduling process and the work of WP:URFA/2020, the issues with unmaintained or low-quality FAs from '06 or '07 appearing at TFA is much less likely than it was even two years ago. Hog Farm _Talk 04:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Sick of the pornographic images. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Common sense. Curbon7 (talk) 06:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support for pretty much the same reasons as everyone else. Also support move and/or upload protection as necessary. TFAs should not be so much of a chore that they require editors to watch them 24/7 while on the Main Page. SilverTiger12 (talk) 13:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. I think there's a lot more downside here than in the main proposal. The main proposal would affect only nonconfirmed users, but nonconfirmed users already cannot upload local files (per WP:AUTOCONFIRM). Instead, it would affect confirmed non-admin editors, since per WP:UPLOAD-P upload-protected pages can only have new versions uploaded by admins. I can easily envision a scenario in which an experienced editor like myself might want to upload a new version of an image of TFA (for instance, to crop out a border included in the file, or to improve the contrast) and be prevented from doing so by this. I'll leave it to others to weigh the costs vs. benefits in light of this, but the !votes above that treat it as an obvious corollary to the main proposal do not seem to reflect an understanding that it is actually quite different. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:43, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support per my comment above; would also be possible to consider carrying over to Wikidata since some templates autopopulate from it. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Kusma. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 16:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Even if it is uncommon, any single instance of it is bad enough that we should mitigate the possibility at the outset. XOR'easter (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  We generally don't pre-emptively protect pages. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 23:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  Consensus can change. I think Wikipedia has a lot of things that are set in stone because "a few editors 15+ years ago said it should be this way, so it is". casualdejekyll 22:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Not enough evidence that this is a persistent problem that requires pre-emptive protection from all non-admin editors. Largely in agreement with Sdkb that file protection would prevent more beneficial edits than disruptive edits. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 19:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I'm indifferent on this one. I feel that it would help, but at the same time I don't think its that much of a problem to require protection since its harder to change the image than it is to vandalize the article. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 01:33, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support Not really convinced by Sdkb's point here, opportunities for legitimate improvements in this scenario are vastly outnumbered and outweighed by opportunities for mischief. – Teratix ₵ 04:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  One important consideration is whether this would actually make things harder for LTAs (who, per the point about autoconfirmation above, seem to be the main target). If so, that's persuasive. If e.g. uploading a new file is just as easy/disruptive as overwriting an existing one, then we're blocking good-faith improvements while not actually solving the vandalism problem. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 12:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  Another thought: How about extended-confirmed protection? That would provide a major deterrent against vandalism without restricting only to admins, which seems excessive. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support the risk is not worth it, the prevention is easy, and the chance that a real edit will be negated is unlikely. Fair enough to me – Aza24 (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Category views

Categorization is critically important for reasons of searchability, analysis, management, visualization, redundancy, and user experience - among others.

Currently, the utility of categories is largely diminished by the superset approach which overcategorizes to the point that categories can't be used in a productive manner for domain specific tasks.

While it's very important to maintain the free speech and democracy of Wikipedia, there is a way to add a layer of quality control without undermining that: Category views, though only as second class citizens.

A category view would be another set of wiki pages / tables that can be managed alongside categories. They would provide a hierarchy that allows for semi-protected subcat/page inclusion. This would allow experts in a field to leverage the content of wikipedia.

Category views would not allow for the creation of new categories, only their connections. Folks creating category views would need to work with the community to ensure that the categories they care about are well named and being productively used. Creating new categories for the purpose of category views would be frowned upon and would be subject to immediate reversal.

In order to not disrupt the democracy of wikipedia, category views would be separate pages unto themselves and wouldn't be shown on article pages. category view pages would be largely separate. categorylinks would not be altered/impacted by this effort in any way. It would be an entirely separate table.

A very useful feature, perhaps offline, would be merging capability. This would allow for individuals to work together, perhaps as editorial boards, to merge their efforts.

An alternative to this would be user pages and currently existing pagelinks with specific nomenclature. Third class citizens, for sure, but it'd be nice to get approval / permission to start doing this. The downside of this approach is that it would likely involve the creation of new categories (the user pages themselves), which is an effort which would be lost to the community.

This might be an outside of wikipedia/wikimedia effort, but I think it'd suffer greatly if not aligned and controlled by wikipedia. Wikiqrdl (talk) 09:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the proposal, nor what the issue is exactly. What does Currently, the utility of categories is largely diminished by the superset approach which overcategorizes to the point that categories can't be used in a productive manner for domain specific tasks mean exactly? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 13:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski Just walk the tree/graph of category views from any starting point to any reasonable depth, and you end up traversing almost all of wikipedia. If I were, say, a biologist and I wanted to export and create a zim of all the biology pages on Wikipedia - how would I do that? Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:23, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

@Wikiqrdl: What is a zim? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 20:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Probably ZIM (file format). And the obvious answer to the question is "Ask for help at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing It was a rhetorical question. The answer is you can't, as there is no useful categorization that would give you all the pages / subcats a biologist would be interested in. Wikiqrdl (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd assume that the answer to "What pages would a biologist be interested in?" would have significant overlap with the answer to "What pages is WP:WikiProject Biology interested in?", so I'd probably start with Category:WikiProject Biology articles.

If you wanted to do this more seriously (i.e., get all the articles for a subject, rather than complaining about the category structure), then I'd suggest looking at the systems used by WP:1.0, because "all the pages a biologist would be interested in" includes pages that aren't about biology, but which are linked in a significant number of biology-related articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Could you dumb-down your proposal a little bit? What does "merging capability" mean? What is a "category view"? And so on. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 13:33, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Edward-Woodrow Take scholarpedia, for example. An admirable effort, if poorly executed along many different dimensions, it's lack of democracy probably being the worst. However, there is a way to integrate efforts like scholarpedia into wikipedia by creating category views. Credible experts can maintain these as well as provide expert guidance on the categories linked to from their views. Experts will recognize each others efforts and see them as equally credible and will want to merge their category views, becoming a board of two or more to control that view. Certain pages will get accepted in their views, some will not. Again - these views will be entirely outside the normal flow of things so as not to disrupt the democracy of wikipedia. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I am so confused. You still haven't explained what a category view is. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 20:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

A category view is the same as the categorylinks table, except under semi-protected control and outside the normal flow of wikipedia. As mentioned, it wouldn't allow for the creation of new categories, only the links between the categories to subcats, pages, files, and others as appropriate. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

@Wikiqrdl: I have a sinking feeling we're operating in different universes. Or you're using ChatGPT. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 20:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

No, not using chatgpt. Start here, click on links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents/Categories

eg-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents/Categories -->

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Biology -->

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Botany -->

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Plants-->

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Coats_of_arms_with_plants Wikiqrdl (talk) 21:11, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I expect most or all of the people responding here are aware that categories have subcategories within them. What is not clear is what you are asking to do about that. Your request is in some sort of technojargon that is not the common language around here. If you were to say "hey, wouldn't it be nice if we were to have one page that could show you a list of all the articles that were in the Botany category, even if they are buried in a sub-subcategory" (which I'm not assuming is what you're asking for, but is here as an example of clearer communication) then we could address it. But your suggestion is full of nomenclature that may (or may not) mean something to you, but no one reading it has been able to figure out what you're suggesting. Perhaps it would be best if you mocked up a dummy page of what a "category view" would look like, and linked to that. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

@NatGertler I mean, proper categorization is 'technojargon'? Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you really think 'coats of arms with plants' subcat belongs under biology -> botany? I am failing to see how this is confusing. Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

As for terminology, I'm just referencing the wikipedia tables. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Database_layout Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

So your complaint is that "coats of arms with plants" is under "biology -> botany"? Because there has been no bloody way of telling that from the blather you've put forth, much less what you believe we should do about that. Do not expect people in a "policy" discussion area to be deep into the database programming aspect of this site; yes, that material would qualify as technojargon in this context. Look around you at the responses your post has generated; does anyone appear to know what it is you want?? You are not communicating clearly in this context. I cannot picture what end result you want.

And since you asked, while I am not in love with the category system here, I am fine with "coats of arms with plants" being a subcategory of "Coats of arms by charge", "Plants and humans" and "Plants in art", all of which seem fitting. And I expect top-level categories to be very loose in their definition and broad in their inclusion.

Again, I suggest if you want people here to understand what you're talking about (not that I'm convinced you've found the right place -- perhaps Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) or Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) would be more fitting), mock up a version of what you want to see. I do not seem to be alone in your posts not generating a mental picture of what you want. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Are you looking for a tool like meta:PetScan? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 15:21, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

You might be able to automate this, but I think it would be better for Human Beings to do the job. For Categorization to be useful, you really want an expert in the domain to break things down in a way that's useful for practioners. It's like a taxonomy in biology. Wikiqrdl (talk) 14:27, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Worse, it's like a taxonomy where termites are a type of tree, because Termites is in Wood decomposition is in Wood is in Trees. Some of our subcategories are is-a relationships, but many are not. Certes (talk) 14:37, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

@Certes Yeah, though tbf, there are so many people with different needs / requirements / understanding that it's not surprising that categories have become overloaded. Wikiqrdl (talk) 00:20, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• @Wikiqrdl: your only edits on Wikipedia are proposing this topic; would you like to give any more context as to what you mean by it? – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 14:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  @John M Wolfson My general recommendation for anyone interested in this topic is to download the categorylinks table and traverse it from root nodes. You'll quickly see what I mean. It's almost like categorization on wikipeia is largely non-existent. There are some pages which do a very admirable effort of fixing this, like the portals, but they don't provide the hierarchical control that you'd want to productively span a specific domain. Perhaps portals can be enhanced for this purpose, however. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:37, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Wikiqrdl: I still don't fully understand what you're talking about, but the historical trend on Wikipedia has been to move away from over-hierarchization and directories; subpages were turned off in the mainspace in 2002, and portals have been on their way out for a while, even being removed (or at least demoted, I don't recall) from the Main Page. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

  Not sure what you mean by 'subpages' were turned off. They are directly accessible by the UI. Eg - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents/Categories -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Calculus -> subpages. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Wikiqrdl:I said in the mainspace; i.e., the fact that A/B testing is its own page and not a subpage of A, and the fact that all pages with "/" in them and not any colons (so no "Wikipedia:" or "Wikipedia talk:") are their own pages and not subpages. I'll AGF and assume that you had simply skipped over those words when you read my comment (I've done the same a few times), but if you had not – or, worse still, still don't know what I mean – you should edit more to Wikipedia (your only edits are still to this topic) before you make such radical proposals as these. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

  It's not radical at all, it's just commonsense. Fortunately, it's already happening in terms of portals. Here's a fantastic example - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biology Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

  Not everyone feels that portals are on their way out. The RfC linked above concluded that There exists a strong consensus against deleting or even deprecating portals at this time. The list of portals is still linked from the Main Page, though less prominently than before. Certes (talk) 21:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

  @CertesPortals are great! They should be enhanced to do more though, not just top level but the entire categorization of their topics. Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:18, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey, if I'm the first person to guess that this proposal was written by artificial intelligence, and it turns out I'm right, do I win anything? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hm, I thought that too. Did you think it before 13.33 UTC? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 15:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

OP hasn't edited since ten minutes after proposing this, yet made a couple of minor tweak edits in those ten minutes. 🤔 – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

One particularly useful feature a category view would provide would allow for editors to be alerted whenever a page underneath their view gets edited. This would not be a primary purpose of a view, but more of a natural result of its existence. I recognize similar things like this already exist, but the point is to surface that view that the editor is trying to maintain as it would be useful to others. Escalation paths could be integrated into a category view assuming a board exists to manage it, to allow for division of labor aligned with expertise and responsibilities. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:56, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I'll bite. Wikiqrdl - How does your proposal differ from WikiData? And also how does this differ from the internet phenomenon of "tagging"? - jc37 22:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually, the more I look into this, I realize that this is what portals is trying to be. Just needs to more support. Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:44, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that portals are trying to be what most of the World Wide Web was before search engines became popular. They are certainly not trying to be a database. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Maybe, though we already have that with the categorylinks table. I think portals are attempting to overlay a specific purpose built view over a subsection of wikipedia, which is what I'm getting at here. My example: Imagine you are a STEM educator at a university and want to curate a high quality and relevant list of all STEM related wikipedia pages and their organization on wikipedia. @WhatamIdoing Wikiqrdl (talk) 00:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the intention of wikidata is to allow editors to come up with domain specific categorization of an area of knowledge on Wikipedia. Rather it's about providing a system for managing data across sites and linking them.

It's possible you might be able to repurpose WikiData for the problem of overcategorization on Wikipedia, but I don't immediately see how.

As for tags, yes, it's sort of like that but I don't think you'd include the tags on the pages themselves and the tags would need to be properly nested.

I think the best example on wikipedia right now are the 'portals', though they need to be enhanced to fully categorize their fields of interest. Wikiqrdl (talk) 14:35, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikidata is structured data. This includes saying things like: This is a living organism – subtype plant – subtype vascular plant – subtype flowering plant – subtype dicot – and so forth.

Wikidata is all about having everything properly nested down a predictable tree. If your idea of fun is talking about whether something is an instance of X vs a subtype of X, then it's definitely a place you should check out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:41, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing I asked them, they said no, "Wikidata itself is not organized into categories or tags. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 23:09, 11 September 2023 (UTC)"

They don't technically use Help:Categories or Tag (metadata), but they do organize information in fine detail according to pre-planned, organized schemas. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:14, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

They did point me to wiki projects, which is parent to the portals. This looks like what I'm looking for, but the problem is they don't seem that organization in terms of databases. Wikiqrdl (talk) 19:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

A WikiProject is a group of people who want to work together. A WikiProject is not a "parent to the portals". If you find that portals exist for the same subjects that groups want to work on, it is largely coincidental, and the existence of the group is not causative. Portals were largely created in 2005–2006 by individuals who wanted to run for WP:RFA and needed a "content contribution" that went beyond vandal fighting, not by groups working to improve content for a subject area. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:18, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing Fair point, however people necessarily organize themselves hierarchically by specialization when grappling with a grandly scoped problem with a knowledge base covering the full range of human knowledge, and that organization would be a useful category view. Wikiqrdl (talk) 00:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

RfC: TFA fair use lead image protection

Which level of Upload-protection should be applied to Wikipedia-hosted images that appear in the lead section of an article appearing as Today's Featured Article from the day before it appears on the Main Page through the day after?

• Option 1: No change (which defaults to the normal requirement that image uploaders be autoconfirmed)
• Option 2: Extended-confirmed protection (500 edits/30 days)
• Option 3: Full-protection (only administrators)

{{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)^{Clarified per below 14:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)}

Background (TFA images)

Commons-hosted TFA lead images normally appear on the Main Page and are thereby subject to cascading full protection, but Wikipedia-hosted images are not, and have previously generally remained unprotected. In a sidebar at the recent RfC on article semi-protection, editors raised the issue that these have been subject to vandalism and may warrant heightened protection. There was some possible confusion about the current situation and available options, however, so after discussion with the closer, this RfC seeks to clarify consensus about how we should deal with these images. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Survey (TFA images)

Option 2 as per Sdkb, it seems like a happy medium between preventing vandalism while not locking out most well-meaning editors. I suspect most editors experienced enough to do image alterations are going to be extended-confirmed already. Happy editing, SilverTiger12 (talk) 01:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 per Sdkb and SilverTiger2. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 2. I cannot conceive of really any instances where a very new editor would need to upload a replacement image in a currently featured article, and if on some exceptionally rare occasion that would be needed, they can still suggest it on the talk page (which for a TFA will generally be quite heavily watched). Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 3. I'm having a hard time coming up with any situation where one would need to change a photo that that is so urgent it can't wait until after the article is on the main page, yet not urgent enough to have been fixed before that. Gnomingstuff (talk) 01:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Gnomingstuff, I don't think the situation would ever be "urgent". But I'm also pretty sure my example of cropping out an unneeded border is something I've done for a TFA sometime in the past, not just a hypothetical. Yes, it's always possible to wait or to make an edit request, but those are barriers that might make someone decide not to bother or cause them to forget. That's not a huge effect, sure, but when ECP would eliminate 99% of the vandalism risk, it's being weighed against a very small downside. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 14:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Sdkb I was thinking more things like "wait, this image is a copyvio, and somehow no one realized this until the photo hit the front page." (I guess in this unlikely hypothetical situation someone reached out.) But even then, I don't see how option 3 would prevent something that needs to be changed from getting changed. Something like a border isn't a need-to-change. Gnomingstuff (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 3 I am surprised to learn that Commons images are protected, as there have been incidents in the past when they have been deleted or replaced with pornographic images. It is hard to think of a reason why an image must be replaced while the article is at TFA unless it has been vandalised. Otherwise it always wait another day. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:34, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

c:User:KrinkleBot protects images that are displayed on the Main Page and Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow (and two other pages to support POTD and ITN). Those make the image displayed on the Main Page itself protected, and usually that's also the lead image in the article. Sometimes, though, a crop is uploaded or an alternate image is chosen that fits better in the Template:TFA box, and I expect instances like that are when you saw the image displayed in the article vandalized. —Cryptic 01:56, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 as first choice, but Option 3 is acceptable. I think it's reasonably possible that someone might want to provide a replacement image (maybe slightly better centering or something) and that doing so would be an actual improvement, at the article's highest-ever profile, so I lean toward option 2. I think at least option 2 is necessary, because of the high "attractive nuisance" quality of front-page-featured content.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 3 as the featured article and its images have already undergone close scrutiny. Discussion prior to changes would be a good idea. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:53, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 3 Fears about items locked-down are overblown. This sort of temporary protection is needed. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 2. There is always a tradeoff between deterring vandalism and trying to open the door to good-faith contributions. Even restricting to admins will never get us to 100% protection, and LTAs will always seek the most attractive nuisance opportunity available. The question then becomes, how many edits/tenure do we need to require to make it an unattractive option for LTAs? Is it 10 edits/4 days? Clearly not, which is why we're having this discussion. Is it 10,000 edits/2 years (the rough floor for admin consideration)? I'd argue that that's clearly overkill — I would trust that a user with 8,000 edits/a year's tenure who is trying to edit an image on an FTA article is far more likely to be contributing in good faith than to be an LTA throwing away the dozens of hours of work it took to reach that point in order to commit a momentary act of vandalism that'll be quickly reverted. So where is the happy medium? 500/30 seems about right. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 ECP protection is a good level. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:52, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 seems sufficient, it's significant enough of a hurdle that drive by vandals (and even determined trolls) are unlikely to surpass it, and it still allows experienced editors to edit when needed. --Jayron32 12:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 by SMcCandlish's reasoning. HenryMP02 (talk) 17:46, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 per Sdkb and SMcCandlish. Hog Farm _Talk 01:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Option 2. Note that option 3 places extra burden on our often overtaxed administrators. Even if it rarely happens, there's the administrative/cognitive burden of it being a possible thing that may be needed. —siroχo 03:34, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 Seems like the most reasonable way forward. Pecopteris (talk) 03:46, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 Protection is definitely needed, but full protection seems like overkill. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:06, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (TFA images)

Pings to participants in the sidebar and the closer: @Hemiauchenia, Xaosflux, ToBeFree, Kusma, John M Wolfson, SWinxy, Chris troutman, Rhododendrites, Dylnuge, Hog Farm, Hawkeye7, Curbon7, SilverTiger12, Gnomingstuff, Edward-Woodrow, XOR'easter, Casualdejekyll, Freedom4U, Blaze Wolf, Teratix, and CaptainEek: {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• I'm personally still unsure about how to !vote here, although I'm leaning toward option 2. I would find it helpful to hear from vandalism experts who can comment more on whether we've seen a pattern of abuse here beyond just the Playboy incident and if it seems to be just LTAs or also others. I'd also find it helpful to hear more about the relative ease and disruptiveness of uploading new versions of a file vs. just uploading and inserting a new file (e.g. the caching problem). From my current understanding, extended-confirmed protection seems like a happy medium. It's what we use to protect lots of other sensitive/highish-profile things by imposing enough of a barrier that almost all LTAs find it easier to go disrupt something else (a marginal win for us to the extent that their next-best option is lower-visibility). At the same time, it would allow experienced non-admin editors to directly make simple changes to photos, such as cropping out borders or fixing contrast issues. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not an expert on this particular type of vandalism but my understanding is it has been going on in some form since the early 2000s (when shock images like goatse were more common on the Internet in general). Gnomingstuff (talk) 11:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• I think there is some confusion about protection, again. For example, todays FA img includes File:Lost in Translation poster.jpg. A file may have 3 different types of protection: EDIT, MOVE, UPLOAD. Each of these may have the same or different levels of protection. EDIT only deals with the file's description, which would be minimally visible to readers. MOVE could be a problem as it it could break the file, UPLOAD would allow replacing the image with another one (without having to edit the article). — xaosflux ^Talk 01:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  So the real matter for discussion is what is the type of disruption that you want to deal with, and are willing to trade off protection vs the ability for someone to improve a file. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  Upload protection is the main one and implied by the options as that's the one which has actually been an issue. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed, I think what we're !voting on above is upload-protection, although I'd be fine seeing move-protection raised to match it (moving also requires autoconfirmation for any file currently). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 02:34, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  Right, I don't understand "Option 3" in this survey. Upload protection is not a binary of "administrators only" or no protection, it can be applied to different levels, so you could have, for example, ECP-only-upload protection if you wanted. Legoktm (talk) 11:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Sdkb: I came here to say the same things as Xaosflux and Legoktm, only to find that they had already said them. To clarify, there are three types of protection - edit, move and upload (a fourth type, create protection, is available on non-existent pages in place of the other three); and English Wikipedia provides five levels of protection - Allow all users, Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access, Require extended confirmed access, Require template editor access and Require administrator access; and for any given page, each of the four prot types may be set independently to any of the five prot levels. The RfC also comes in "blind", it lacks context - although this is covered in the Background subsection, remember that it won't appear in the RfC listings unless mentioned before the first timestamp. So I think that it would be best if you clarified the RfC statement; I suggest four amendments:

  1. Add an introductory phrase like Following the recent discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Automatically semi-protect Today's Featured Article, which level of protection ...
  2. Amend Which level of protection should be applied ... to read Which level of Upload-protection should be applied ...
  3. Amend option 1 to remove the text to upload images, this now being redundant to the preceding question
  4. Amend option 3 to read Full protection (administrators only)

  Option 2 can be left alone. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  The purpose of the background section is to provide context, so I think that's where context should go, but if you feel the background section is sufficiently neutral, feel free to remove the initial signature so that it gets transcluded as well (hopefully we can trust people to read more than just the transcluded bit before !voting, though). Happy to make the other changes. The confusion there is partially stemming from Wikipedia:Protection policy, where "upload protection" is listed alongside things like "extended-confirmed protection," and also begins Upload-protected files, or more technically, fully upload-protected files, cannot be replaced with new versions except by an administrator, thus blurring the difference between types and levels. I'd urge some reorganization of that page so that the current "Types of protection" level-2 heading is split into "Types of protection" and "Levels of protection" to make the distinction clear. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 14:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• I'm still indifferent. I have no real opinion on this. I see both the positives and negatives of this. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 02:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

BLP noticeboard banner question

The talk page of a biography of a living person, Talk:Dominic Ng, contains a banner, {{BLP noticeboard}}, with a date. There is no discussion in the BLP noticeboard because the previous discussion was archived by an archival bot. The instructions for the banner say that it should be removed when the discussion at BLPN is resolved. The discussion was not resolved, but was archived without resolution. Should the instructions for removal be revised to say that the template can be removed when the discussion is resolved or archived? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:09, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Would it be helpful if we had some sort of "old afd" option in cases like this? Not for everything, but reasonably important ones. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:36, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

I think so. I would change the instructions to say "This template should be removed when the BLP noticeboard discussion is resolved or archived." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:11, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Amend to "...is resolved or archived by a uninvolved party." CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 23:23, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Admins and being paid to advise on editing

I have recently learned about an admin who is offering their services on Upwork. This admin (who I'm not naming because of WP:OUTING but who I will inform of this discussion) is quite clear that they will not edit or use their admin toolset. This admin further makes clear that they will follow all Wikipedia rules about paid editing and expect their clients to do the same. The service that they do offer is helping their clients "every step of the way" with editing on Wikipedia.

I feel pretty confident, for a number of reasons, that there is no paid editing violation happening based on the conduct of this admin and the way the Terms of Use and enwiki policies and guidelines are written. However, I am pretty troubled by this all the same in the way I wouldn't be with a non-admin. Again I do not suspect this current admin of doing anything wrong so it's not about them; it's about this as a principle. Do others see this as an issue as well? If so what should we do in response? Ideas that we could do:

• Change the requirement for RfA candidates to something like required to disclose whether they have ever edited Wikipedia, or advised others on editing Wikipedia, for pay (though this doesn't impact people after they become admins or current admins)
• Add some kind of transparency requirement for paid advising not just paid editing (but wording this in a workable way strikes me as hard)

Barkeep49 (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Can you expound on what your concerns are, and why it is different for an admin as opposed to a non-admin? Wehwalt (talk) 22:55, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the question. My concern is that we have to take people at their word that all they're doing is advising - I would much prefer a trust but verify (through transparency) system. And it's because of the tools that admins have that others don't to help clients, ranging from the not really a problem (viewing deleted content) to full on sanctioning someone who edits against their clients interests, that it strikes me as more of a problem for admin than other users. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

If an admin blocks someone on behalf of a client, then they are making a paid contribution and would have to conform to the paid-contribution disclosure requirements. Perhaps any use of administrative privileges should be considered to be a contribution for purposes of the terms of use? There is a financial conflict of interest with being paid for advice; I agree that figuring out how to compel disclosure in this case is difficult.

I'm having difficulty, though, trying to work out if there a distinction, other than type of client, with the role you are describing versus a Wikipedian-in-residence. In theory this is mutually beneficial, as the client will know from the start how to engage productively with the Wikipedia community, but this depends on the diligence of the advisor. isaacl (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Add some kind of transparency requirement for paid advising not just paid editing (but wording this in a workable way strikes me as hard) Does anyone see issues with something like Editors are required to disclose any payment for or related to activity on the English Wikipedia? It's broader than just paid advising, but in general I think transparency is a good thing so I don't see an issue with that. BilledMammal (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not convinced of the need, but if some policy were put in place, we'd need to cement what counts as "advising". Sure, being a consultant for EvilCorp would, but would teaching Wikipedia Editing 201 at EvilU (and in that case, who needs to be reported, EvilU who paid directly, or the students who were advised and funded it with their tuition?) Would writing a How Edit Wikipedia book for EvilPub count? If in the course of her regular workday in the EvilCorp communications dept, Brenda Admin is asked "how do we change our Wikipedia page to say we make solutions?" and Brenda tells them "you don't", does Brenda now have to make such an announcement? There is much fuzziness here. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I've had to be Brenda. It sucked. It wasn't even me who let management know I was an editor; I'm not sure whether they knew I was an admin. I just wish I'd been brave enough to push the A7 button myself. —Cryptic 23:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I've been aware of this admin for some time. My main concern has been that this creates a problem for them - having been paid in regard to Wikipedia advice, they have an ongoing undisclosed COI with those topics. This is workable, but it gets tricky when their clients have hired paid editors in the past and may do so in the future after seeking their advice when they are aware of this, but now they are in a difficult position. I know of other cases where editors have advised clients on Upwork and as a result of that advise the clients have hired banned editors to edit on their behalf, and I am aware that at least one of the clients who have hired this admin has also hired multiple paid editors in the past. - Bilby (talk) 23:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Like all COIs, it only needs announcement if they are editing (or administering) in their COI areas, which are already covered by existing policy. We all have COIs for some area, so the idea that these people will now have COIs for other ones doesn't strike me as a change of general status. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:21, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see a need to disclose a COI unless you are editing articles related to that COI, but effectively creating COIs with articles where there has been violations of policy in the past is creating a difficult position for yourself as an admin. Especially when through consulting you will be made aware of paid editing that has happened on articles where you now have a COI, and you will likely become aware of paid editing that happens on those articles after you consult. - Bilby (talk) 00:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I feel like you put yourself in a position where you are 100% fine or you are deyssopped and possibly banned. Those are pretty extreme outcomes and it's why I'm wondering if some additional transparency helps create middle ground. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:23, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be some guidance that editors providing advice remain ethically bound to raise attention to any improper contributions they encounter on wiki, and are thus unable to agree to any terms that would restrict this duty. The editors must inform their clients of this responsibility. isaacl (talk) 17:40, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Bilby is touching on the most likely and troubling scenario if said Admin is advising MegaCompany, AspiringCeleb or whoever. The likely next step will involve paid article editing by a paid editor account; this will happen in the Admin's line of sight, but without their hands on the keyboard. Clearly, if another editor challenged/reverted the paid editor's changes, defensive action by the Admin may be sought by their sponsor, and must be resisted (or they must be de-sysopped). But if the paid edits remain unnoticed by others, what then? No COI action has touched their keyboard, but doesn't the Admin bear some responsibility for their inaction to defend the overall integrity? This is a swamp, best avoided. AllyD (talk) 06:59, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

In this case it isn't theoretical. One of the clients that the admin worked for had previously hired paid editors to create an article. After the admin provided advice, an editor has subsequently recreated the article. That editor might be a paid editor in which case we have UPE. I do not hold this against the admin - this is an admin whom I have considerable respect for and whom I trust, and I do not belive that they would ever willingly do the wrong thing by Wikipedia - plus they have been transparent about what they do even if they haven't been transparent about this article in particular. So that is not what I'm suggesting. But it is a difficult line to walk, knowing that a client you recently worked for is now breaking the ToU, and had hired people to break the ToU before you agreed to work for them. I'd recommend admins not put themselves in this position just because of the problems this could potentially lead to. - Bilby (talk) 11:36, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

My suggestion for advisors to make their clients aware of their community responsibility is intended to ensure the line is made clear to clients from the onset. isaacl (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

What is "advising"? If someone buys a copy of my hypothetical new book How to Edit Wikipedia, is that a declarable COI? Admins certainly shouldn't be revealing deleted articles for cash (even if obtainable for free from your favourite archive site) but that seems like mop abuse rather than "advising". Certes (talk) 23:15, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Do others see this as an issue as well? - Yes, this strikes me as a self-evidently bad thing.

If so what should we do in response? - I do not think admins have any business making money off of their adminship. Period. Paid editing, or marketing oneself as a Wikipedia expert for financial gain, should be strictly prohibited for administrators. That is my two cents. Pecopteris (talk) 23:17, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree. If an admin wishes to make money from paid editing, they should divest themselves of their mop before doing so. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:27, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Pecopteris is on the right track but I would go further. Admins should be role-modelling the highest standards of conduct. It's not good enough merely to not break rules - they should be morally beyond reproach. Adminship is a privileged position, and using that position for financial gain has the potential to bring the project into disrepute, even if done in good faith, and even if no edits are made. This is not a million miles away from cash for access, which is widely regarded as scandalous. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:10, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

+1 -- GreenC 04:21, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• I pretty much agree with Pecopteris. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 23:25, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you see this as including getting an honorarium for speaking? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

• This has been discussed a bit with the functionaries, so I know a little more than barkeep49 has said, although I'm not privy to all of the details. Promotional editing is a big business, and those who run those sorts of businesses are always looking for an edge. Having an admin on your team is certainly a coveted asset for these people. I've been solicited off-wiki for my admin services, and I would imagine most admins could tell similar stories.

For sure, experts in all fields hire themselves out as consultants. Pharmaceutical companies hire retired FDA people to help them with regulatory issues. Likewise aircraft manufacturers hire FAA people to help with regulatory issues, and so on. This is all completely legit. These people come with knowledge and experience (not to mention contacts) which can only be gained by having been on the inside. But the common aspect here is that these people only go into private industry after they leave their government jobs. What's happening here is a sitting admin is offering their services for hire. Even if they're not providing direct tools-for-hire services, part of what they're selling is that they do have the tools (i.e. the ad on upwork directly states that they are an admin, even if it also states that they won't use those tools for hire).

I'd be much more comfortable if an admin decided they wanted to go into private consulting and resigned their bit to do so. They could still advertise that they're selling their experience and knowledge, but there would be a bright line in the sand that they're not selling their admin services. At the very least, they should publicly disclose that they're doing so. WMF:Policy:Terms of Use (under "Paid Contributions Without Disclosure") says You must disclose each and any employer, client, intended beneficiary and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. We could wiki-lawyer about whether providing consulting services that don't include on-wiki editing is covered by this, but I think it is certainly within the spirit of what was intended. RoySmith (talk) 23:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Ideally, there would be no paid editing. Returning to the real world, we should not allow editors to accept payment for using any significant privilege. What is "significant"? Certainly, anything that requires the sysop bit. Probably not autoconfirmed, which anyone can obtain easily. Probably most other hats such as new page reviewer or template editor. Extended-confirmed and autopatrolled may be borderline. Certes (talk) 00:14, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Just as a general principle, I don't think autopatrolled should be used for paid editing; such articles need the extra scrutiny provided by NPP. BilledMammal (talk) 00:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I thought for a while after seeing this that APAT only had effect if the AFC reviewer moving the article had the perm but reading the page again it does seem it's both (either one of original page creator or AFC reviewer with APAT will cause the article to be marked as reviewed). In which case, yes, I'd agree in general PAID articles should be unpatrolled when moved to mainspace so that the are reviewed by both sets of eyes. Alpha3031 (t • c) 12:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Just a note on the last few replies, this is not about paid editing. This is about advising people on how to edit. We are not discussing admins who might take money for edits. Primefac (talk) 07:24, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, this is about parlaying the community's former confidence (an RfA with as high a percentage of supports as Eostrix's) into a quality guarantee in order to charge US$75/hour for paid advising. I had a look at the admin-in-question's user page. They do not indicate their "for hire" status or their hourly rate anywhere. Perhaps it could be suggested that they do so? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 18:57, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• S Marshall's thoughts:
  • Advising people about how to make appropriate, policy-compliant edits to Wikipedia is a good thing.
  • It's also appropriate behaviour for a sysop. We expect sysops to do this on people's talk pages.
  • It's not for us to police someone's earnings. Our only proper concern is inappropriate on-wiki behaviour.
  • There are good reasons why we need people to disclose on-wiki when they're getting paid for Wikipedia-related work.
  • Therefore this sysop should disclose (1) the fact that they're consulting and (2) which articles and topic areas are involved.
• And that should be sufficient.—S Marshall T/C 08:34, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  We did stray onto activities which require privileges but are not edits, such as viewing deleted pages. That's an example of "using any significant privilege" for which we may wish to prohibit payment. Certes (talk) 09:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  In general I agree with S Marshall, but I feel we need to be clear about how this impacts things like Wikimedians in residence, editathons, etc. There are also many other questions, such as what about $corp paying an someone to teach someone how to edit in accordance with all the relevant policies? Does it make a difference if it's just expenses? Is doing something like viewing a deleted article to advise what sources it used "inappropriate on-wiki behaviour"? If this admin is advising someone about editing in a given subject area is it inappropriate if they use their admin tools to revert obvious vandalism in that topic area? What about if they are giving advice about editing generally rather than in a specific topic area? What if an article in their client's field is (semi-)protected due to vandalism and the admin edits through that protection to fix a typo on behalf of their client? Or to add a requested citation? How long after the relationship with the client ends does the COI last? Thryduulf (talk) 11:39, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with all of these points Thryduulf, though I will note that some of them also apply to traditional paid editing and even just COI - for instance how long does it last for. In other words if someone works for a company for a year at age 23, when they're 25 they still have a COI. Do they still at 30? 50? 70? Barkeep49 (talk) 14:35, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with S Marshall. Additionally, I don't think we should treat admins and non-admins all that differently -- there are experienced non-admin NPP/AfC experts that could be much more of an asset to company PR than many admins. —Kusma (talk) 10:45, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Admins and being paid to advise on editing (break)

There are at least four questions here:

1. What counts as paid advising, and how do our policies on transparency/disclosure regarding paid editing apply to it?

   This is complicated, but if pressed for a simple answer I'd say our policies on paid editing simply don't apply. If you're not editing, you can't be paid editing.

2. Does a COI need to be disclosed even if someone never edits a related topic?

   No. You only need to disclose a COI as it relates to your on-wiki editing. The policy is the "conflict of interest editing" policy, after all. Do we all need to disclose our employers because we might someday write about them? Do you need a list of my family and friends in case I write about them? No. Disclosure needs to happen as soon as you start making edits that change or otherwise influence the subject.

3. Is it ever ok to use admin tools in the service of paid editing or paid advising?

   No. I'd carve out an exception for "obviously uncontroversial" things like maybe responding to a revdel request of doxing, but doing this would be dancing on the edge of a razor given the amount of discomfort such an act would cause in principle. Get a different admin to do it, and disclose your COI when you do.

4. Should the trust inherent in adminship and the specter of a conflict of interest bar an admin from paid advising?

   No. This all feels yucky because everything at the intersection of money and Wikipedia feels yucky. At the end of the day, companies and individuals are going to try to influence Wikipedia, so let them do it in the best possible way: advised by an experienced user telling them how to go about it properly and stopping short of paid editing. We should want that to be the pipeline so that they don't go and hire some blackhat operation or otherwise make a mess and waste people's time. Whether it's an admin or not doesn't really change anything except in the community's perception. We put a lot of trust in admins, so hold them to a higher standard. But we need admins and we need experienced users and we need people who can tell a company how to properly engage with Wikipedia. As long as someone is doing all that without actually paid editing and discloses any COI if they do edit those topics, I say go for it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree our policies don't currently apply to paid advising. I am suggesting that we need some new policies or guidelines, at least for admins, when it comes to paid advising. And right now, because our policies don't apply, there is no mandate towards transparency/disclosure which is also what I think should be desire. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:36, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd disagree. We cannot and should not try to control what people do outside of Wikipedia. If someone's providing advice, for pay or for free, and never ever edits with a COI, they should not have to disclose that just like they shouldn't have to disclose all of the many other hypothetical COIs they have on topics they don't edit. This is a principled but impractical intervention for the sake of feeling safe. It will discourage interactions that get companies to do things properly for fear of being tainted by the scarlet PE or COI, even when no PE or COI is taking place. We do not need more impediments to adminship, and we do not need more motivation for companies to do the wrong thing. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with all of this comment. I can see why the concern came up but I see no need for new guidelines or disclosure requirements. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:33, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I think I agree, at least without evidence that something is being done in a problematic matter. Making money from being able to advise on Wikipedia is not wrong without some abuse of tools or other misconduct, as far as I can see. Wehwalt (talk) 16:43, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Regarding points 1 and 2, note that the terms of use specify the need to disclose paid contributions, which can encompass actions altering the Wikipedia database beyond editing. With that caveat, I agree the paid-contribution disclosure policy doesn't cover advice, and the conflict of interest guideline doesn't require disclosure unless the editor is involved in trying to change the content of a related article. isaacl (talk) 15:47, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• We've seen a fair amount of text on talk pages, noticeboards, and the like, about paid editing and COI. I'll let others try to figure that out. But where I think we likely all agree is that no one should be using any granted tool/user-right ability as a result of being paid for the action. At best, it's WP:MEAT. I don't want to try to think about "at worst". - jc37 14:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  True, but this is more or less covered by WP:TOOLMISUSE already. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  Sure, but I think it was worth (re-)saying, in the context of this discussion. That regardless of where things fall concerning paid-editing/COI, that there's still a bright line to not be crossed. - jc37 19:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree that it's money x WP that makes it yucky for me. It's soliciting as an admin that's the yucky part for me. It implies to the client that an admin can help them get what they want better than an equally-experienced and expert editor, which is a deliberate misrepresentation (that admins have some special authority over content, which takes advantage of general public confusion) plus the fact that misrepresentation takes advantage of the ignorant. Multiple ignorants, actually. Valereee (talk) 16:56, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Throwing an idea out there: a list of people that the English Wikipedia endorses as capable of advising in this capacity, and a set of requirements to be included in such a list. Some of those requirements could deal with transparency. So, you can go off and advise for pay, and you're not required to disclose unless your on-wiki editing intersects with your clients, but you won't be included in the list of preferred consultants if you don't disclose. I feel like this has been floated with regard to paid editing in the past, though I can't recall what came of it... — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

There is a list of paid editors at Wikipedia:WikiProject Integrity/Editor Registry, but it is updated very infrequently. isaacl (talk) 15:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I would suspect that if we were to go down that road, either there would be no consensus on the qualifications, or those who are greatly concerned about this issue would make the requirements so arduous and fraught with possible penalties that no one would care to use it. None of which would stop whatever is going on from going on, of course, whether harmful or innocuous. Wehwalt (talk) 15:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

This was a thought that I had, too. Probably the sort of thing that would be best written collaboratively among a few and then voted on rather than put together piecemeal. I don't think it's impossible that something useful could come of it, though, since it's inevitably less fraught than paid editing. It's an unfortunate reality that the hardliners who naively think money and Wikipedia should never intersect (and thus must never intersect) ruin so many attempts to create pathways to do it responsibly, and thus push people into the darkness. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• Is this functionally different from the behaviour discussed in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct of Mister Wiki editors? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  Yes. There is zero evidence that the admin has pressed any buttons which was not true of the admin in that case.. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• If there's a middle ground here its for *retired* admins, there is no good way to make a system in which an active admin is giving paid advice (in the same way that a retired senior civil service bureaucrat can consult/advise those with business before the government, but an active one can't). Unpaid advice is fine given the provision that free advice is worth the price you paid and banning it would seem to be unduly onerous to the social lives of Wikipedians. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  Admins must not advise for pay while they are administrators. Resign first.

  Very simple bright line.

  I’m surprised we’re discussing any alternatives.

  —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 03:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  Any editor being paid to advise others on Wikipedia editing must disclose their conflict of interest and the name of their clients.

  This is another simple bright line.

  —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 03:12, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  Barkeep49, you’re on the Arbitration Committee. You all need to confront this admin. Give them these 3 choices from which to pick:

  1. Stop this work and disclose who they’ve worked for to date. They can stay an admin.
  2. Resign their adminship and they can continue advising clients for pay. They must publicly disclose current and former clients
  3. ArbCom takes matters into its hands and desysops this person. ArbCom publicizes the COI.

  If this feels awkward and embarrassing for this admin, so be it. I see the choices above as generous; other community members might argue for desysopping no matter whether they stop. Still others might say ban them outright.

  The community must be able to trust all its administrations … as well as ArbCom.

  —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 03:35, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Another Believer there is no policy or guideline this admin has broken. Mandatory disclosure under our current rules is required only if there has been paid editing. This admin says (and there is zero evidence to suggest otherwise) that they have not edited, used the tools, etc. They have instead offered advise and suggestions off-wiki. It's precisely because there is this gap between what we allow and what I think we should allow that I started this conversation. Best Barkeep49 (talk) 15:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Barkeep49 Did you mean to ping me? I have not participated in this discussion thus far. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:02, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  Nope meant to ping @A. B.. Sorry about that. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. I don't think the editor has broken our rules but I do think it's time for them to make a choice.

  Others such as Mike Christie have provided good examples below that my take on our rules going forward may be too simplistic.

  --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 16:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  If want to force them to make a choice we need to change the rules to say the current choice is not OK. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:11, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with the 3 choices @A. B. laid out, and with the sentiment "very simple bright line - I'm surprised we're discussing any alternatives." I am also surprised, and discouraged that so many editors seem to be adopting a permissive stance on administrators advertising their credentials to unknown entities for financial gain.

  This is inappropriate conduct for an admin. If this is permitted, I guarantee that other admins will start making money by advertising their admin-ship, and new prospective admins will definitely plan on cashing in ASAP upon being given the mop. Who wouldn't? If I were an admin, and I saw this mealy-mouthed conversation taking place, I'd immediately start looking for ways to financially profit of my adminship. This practice will grow exponentially if it is not prohibited.

  I don't want Wikipedia to be a place where admins can use their credentials to cash in off-Wiki. There are too many nefarious actors who would like to manipulate Wikipedia. I find it highly doubtful that a random good-faith person is out there looking to hire a Wikipedia adviser to help them understand NPOV, or anything of the sort. The defense I've seen, which is basically "just trust the admins bro", is inadequate. Pecopteris (talk) 22:25, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  The problem with that is that in the real world there are no bright lines and that it is entirely possible to receive payment and be acting in good faith. Thryduulf (talk) 23:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I see your point, but disagree. For example, it's also possible to be a disruptive and tendentious editor who is acting in good faith. Nevertheless, disruptive and tendentious editing is still a potentially sanctionable offense. "I was acting in good faith" is not a defense against inappropriate behavior. I submit that touting your admin credentials to receive unknown sums of money from unknown entities is vastly more inappropriate than good-faith tendentious editing. At the end of the day, there are only two ways forward here: either we prohibit this behavior, or we do not. If we do not prohibit it, we are permitting it. What you permit, you promote. Are we sure that we want to promote this sort of conduct among sysops? Pecopteris (talk) 00:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  (ec) This sounds good, but I think the principles you're invoking -- payment vs. transparency -- don't actually break down in the way you're implying. I work for a company whose founder has an article on Wikipedia, and there's a controversy about the founder that has made it into national papers multiple times. I'm paid by that company. If the CEO asks me how to edit the article to reflect his view of the founder, and I tell him about the COI rules, I've advised him (that is, I've told him he should do no such thing). Are you saying I should then post a COI note on my user page? (I've not posted any such note to date because I have no intention of ever editing that or any article with which I might have a COI.). If I told him how to subvert the rules, sure, I'm a bad person. But the problem with that is not that it's advice, it's that it's advice that goes against the Wikipedia ethos. I suppose you could argue that one should disclose a COI if one plans to advise one's clients how to get around Wikipedia rules but that's unlikely to be useful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  • If you’re asked to give advice, do what you’re told and send ArbCom a note. Disclose on your user page that you are an employee of the XYZ Corp.
  • Disclosing your employment before you’re asked to make any actual edits may head off your boss later asking you to edit. You can just say, “everybody already knows I work for XYZ - they’ll immediately revert my edits.”
  • If your boss still coerces you into making actual edits, resign as an administrator.

  —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 04:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not an administrator, by the way; I was responding to the part of your post where you argued that your points applied to non-admins too, though I would make the same case for admins. Your suggested actions go beyond what is in the COI guideline. I'd have no problem following your advice if it were in that guideline, and I might even do so without that being so, but as it stands I see no basis for arguing that editors must do as you outline. I think you'd have to propose and pass changes to the COI guideline to address this situation before you could fairly make the categorical statements you make above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 04:22, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  Disclosing that youre an employee of a specific company, in many cases is equivalent to outing yourself. We don't require that nor should we. (t · c) buidhe 05:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  ????? emphasis mine: Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships. ltbdl (talk) 06:47, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Ltbdl emphasis mine: Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships.. Giving advice is not editing and it is not contributing. I strongly agree with buidhe that we do not and should not require an editor to out themselves. Especially just because someone else asked them to do something that did not involve being paid. Thryduulf (talk) 08:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  As another example, I was asked whether I could write an article about a person we both knew who had recently died. I explained the notability policy and my belief that subject would be unlikely to pass it. The person understood that and nothing more was said. Under your rules, if the person asking and/or the subject was my employer I would be required to out myself, declare I'd been giving paid advice and possibly resign my adminship. That is grossly disproportionate. Thryduulf (talk) 08:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I do not think there is a single Wikipedia policy which would require a user to disclose who their employer is. What policies require is to disclose a COI without specifying the nature of the COI. (And I would certainly not advise of listing an employer at the user page; for a while I was saying on my user page that I am a full professor at one of the top universities in the Netherlands; this was enough for some persistent users to find my professional e-mail and send some mails using it, to which I never respond as a matter of principle, and resulted in at least one case of serious harassment). Ymblanter (talk) 14:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  This seems to be a red herring... You guys are conflating giving normal life experience advice in the course of your day jobs with your day job being to provide information about how to promote yourself on wikipedia. Those are not the same thing. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  My point is that the rules proposed by A.B. would remove any such distinction - giving any advice about Wikipedia that relates to your paid employment in any way would be treated the same as paid editing. I think this would be grossly disproportionate. Thryduulf (talk) 17:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I read A.B. as being a bit more nuanced than that, IMO in the description provided you would not be "Any editor being paid to advise others on Wikipedia editing must disclose their conflict of interest and the name of their clients." because you aren't actually being paid to advise on wikipedia you're being paid for something else and the question is unrelated to your core duties... Its a question about a hobby and as long as you don't step over the line into WP:PROMOTION you're good. Where it would be questionable would be if you were employed in a public relations or similar position. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• So. I'm an admin, and have been for years. I'm also a functionary, a member of the WMF Communications Committee, and a bunch of other things. Over the course of many years, I've been asked to speak at various conferences, including ones that aren't directly related to the Wikimedia movement, although my topic was specific to some aspect of the movement. In some of those cases, I have received an honorarium; not always, and it's never been that significant. If it is an online matter, or I didn't have expenses, I've usually had the honorarium donated to the WMF. But when I do have expenses, I am more inclined to keep it (or at least as much of it as covers my personal costs). At every single place where I have spoken, I have been asked plenty of questions about how to do things on Wikipedia: create an article, what kinds of things are needed, how we deal with COI, how we deal with disinformation, who does the editing, what is our structure...the list could be infinite. In most of these cases, I don't think there's much of a different answer to these questions if I'm answering them at an official Wikimedia event than if it's in another forum. So...would this constitute paid advising? Should I stop answering questions that could potentially bring us new editors with new expertise? There are many other people who are or have been in that position; not answering questions about Wikipedia seems to defeat the purpose of this outreach. This is a real question.

  I think that we need to be a little more cautious in how we think about these things, and accept that there are grey areas. There are those who believe that scholarships paid with movement money turn people into paid editors. There are those who think anything less than the level of abuse exhibited by Orangemoody-type editors (i.e., claiming to be specific admins and/or editors, demanding money to keep articles, etc.) is probably okay. I think it's probably somewhere in the middle, but the middle can get awfully muddy. Risker (talk) 05:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• Most of the problems here are in the area Thryduulf has pointed out. But really the core issue is with the admin policy and it being out of date with how COI's effectively work. If we want to eliminate COI impacts on admin tool use, then the requirements for having advanced tools (in the admin policy) need to be tightened up to explicitly say "You cant accept money or other considerations in return for wikipedia-related work in any form. If you wish to do so, you cannot have advanced tools". It would eliminate any and all COI issues with admin's who may *potentially* have issues, because they wont be admins. It would also eliminate our issue with employees of the WMF and their unresolvable COI. The alternative is dicking around with the COI guideline playing whack-a-mole while people find new ways to grift. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  You cant accept money or other considerations in return for wikipedia-related work in any form would prohibit any admins from working for the WMF, Wikimedia chapters or thematic organisations. It would also prohibit them from receiving scholarships grants, scholarships, expenses or even prizes (from the WMF, chapters, etc). Taken literally it would also prohibit them from eating food at any Wikimedia-related event they didn't pay for directly. That is not the goal of the rules regarding conflicts of interest and is much broader than the last consensus I am aware of believed should be prohibited. Thryduulf (talk) 08:45, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  And it would also disincentivize or even bar good strong editors who may already be giving Wikipedia classes, giving sound and proper advice at work, and so forth, from becoming admins, a process that is already too fraught. The assumption that someone who has become an admin is going to do evil if they accept money for giving advice (and let us be clear, giving advice is a good thing and should be encouraged) is strange and bleak; the assumption that an admin who intends to do evil for money is going to announce it is, in contrast, oddly utopian. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 12:43, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  "You cant accept money or other considerations in return for wikipedia-related work in any form would prohibit any admins from working for the WMF, Wikimedia chapters or thematic organisations." Yes thats exactly right. They can volunteer for them, but they cant work for them. The point of a COI is that a conflict of interest arises when you can be forced to put one interest over another. As soon as money (or other renumeration) enters the equation, the threat of withdrawing it also does. If you wanted to narrow it down, you could limit it to employees, contractors or those offering paid services in relation to wikipedia. But it would eventually just devolve into arguments over what is pay or not, or disguising obvious fees. We should have already banned employees of the WMF from holding advanced tools on a non-staff account as soon as the UCoC reared its head because that COI is just not resolveable. Almost zero of the activities offered to third party organisations require the admin suite of tools, and of our current admin corps, (outside of those directly employed by the WMF) how many regularly do any sort of renumerated wikipedia related work? I bet its dwarfed by the amount of people who do actually perform wikipedia-related paid work who would never pass RFA (or have even had their tools removed previously). RE Nat: The assumption isnt that someone who accepts money is intending to do evil, the point of a COI is that people with otherwise good intentions can be forced to perform actions under threat - because of the money changing hands. "Do this or I dont pay you" works perfectly well on otherwise good people with good intentions when they have bills to pay. Its a risk assessment, when someone is given advanced tools it is based on the risk of them abusing them. Their past editing history, their actions, personality etc. As soon as there is a COI, that risk jumps exponentially because that assessment is now completely invalid, it doesnt matter if they are a good and decent person with only the best interests of the encypedia at heart, if they work for an organisastion that only has contempt and sees it as a trough to snuffle their snouts in. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  My employment contract doesn't say I can be fired for explaining to a competitor how to hack our systems and get our confidential data; it doesn't need to. If I did that and was found out, I'd be fired. Until then, my company assumes I will behave appropriately, but retains the right to fire for cause if it decides to do so. In the same way if we find out that someone is doing something inappropriate we discuss banning or blocking them. Creating policies that legislate what our editors and admins can do off-wiki is unnecessary, and for those who don't want their real identities known is another disincentive as it means part of one's offline life would be relevant to discussions about one's behaviour online. We don't give the admin bit to editors we think will behave in the ways we're discussing here, and for regular editors the rule is AGF anyway. Adding offwiki elements to the COI guideline would be intrusive and wouldn't actually give us any more power or provide any more behaviour guidance than we have now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:14, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  Agree with this. Several in this thread are basically assuming our admins are just waiting for an opportunity to be corrupt and betray everyone's trust. That's a bad basis for writing policy. If there's evidence of violating policy, do something; if not, don't. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:01, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  But that conflict of interest doesn't exist when what is being offered is actually advice, because the client wants the advice and we want everyone to be well advised about Wikipedia, to whatever extent they'll accept. If someone is paying for something other than advice, then yes, conflict of interest arises. If the admin is administering over things with a visible relationship to who he is getting paid by, then yes, that's a conflict of interest, but it is no more true than if they were getting paid by those folks for something unrelated to Wikipedia. Presumably most of our admins have an income of some sort from some source. Are we to make every admin declare their sources of income? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:50, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  @NatGertler: But why does the client want the advice? If the answer is so that they can better promote themselves on wikipedia thats a problem and its hard to come up with other reasons why someone would pay for advice about wikipedia. Its settled community consensus that you can't engage in promotion or assist others in engaging in promotion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:49, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  its hard to come up with other reasons [than promotion] why someone would pay for advice about wikipedia. It really, really isn't. Many people want advice about how to contribute in accordance with the rules, they want advice about what the rules are, they want advice about how to learn editing, they want advice about how the whole thing works, they want advice about how a specific thing works, they want advice about whether Wikipedia as a whole/a given article is reliable, they want advice about how to spot scams they've heard about, etc. I've been asked all these things and more over the years. For many people offering to pay someone for their time and/or expertise isn't because they are a bad actor it's because they simply wouldn't think not to do otherwise, because they pay other people for their time and expertise and they get paid for theirs. Thryduulf (talk) 22:00, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  For what purpose? Their own pursuit of wikipedia as a hobby? Would you agree with the statement if people was replaced by companies? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I have given requested advice to many people about Wikipedia (none for money, yet), and while yes, there have been those who wanted to use Wikipedia for promotion (in which case my advice is "ya don't"), there have been at least as many who wanted to figure out how to get factual misinformation off of their page, or are concerned that their page has been turned into an attack page, or here's someone who has been replacing the name of their CFO with "Duckface McGee". I.e., they want factual correct information, they don't want some POV material, and they want vandalism addressed. All of these things are in accord with what Wikipedia wants. And most or all of the advice I give is advice that could be found somewhere on Wikipedia, if they just knew how to navigate the eleventeen policies, guidelines and essays. "Here's how you state your conflict of interest, here is how you request an edit, you'll want to state your request in terms of policies and guidelines and here are the three of those that seem relevant to your situation." Very not evil. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:20, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  If you've never accepted payment what is the point of the long unrelated anecdote? We're talking about paid consulting here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:25, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  You stated "its hard to come up with other reasons why someone would pay for advice about wikipedia", and I was merely showing that it wasn't, that there are other reasons why folks might want advice, and all of it is reasons that some might be willing to pay for (speaking both as someone who has been asked for Wikipedia advice and paid for non-Wikipedia advice repeatedly, so I have the sense that people are willing to pay for advice.) I'm not sure why you feel your inability to come up with reasons why shouldn't be responded to. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  "Harmless wealthy eccentric" was on my list along with academics and non-profits. Those seems to be tiny niches compared to what the vast majority of the people willing to pay for wikipedia consulting want which is promotion... For profit enterprises don't spent money on things which don't have a profit potential. I think disclosure is also merited in the second and third cases, all three in fact if the eccentric is notable. It would be fine for a sitting admin to do consulting work for the Secretary-General’s High-level Panel on Digital Cooperation but they would need to disclose it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  Do you have any evidence for your assertions that people acting in good faith are "tiny niches" and that "for profit enterprises don't spend money on things which don't have a profit potential"? You also seem to completely disregard the possibly that something a for-profit entity wants might be exactly the same thing Wikipedia wants - something Nat Gertler's experience, and my experience, proves does happen. Your entire approach to this issue seems to be assuming that everybody is acting in bad faith and/or with a motive of somehow undermining Wikipedia. Thryduulf (talk) 23:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  So I do consulting (that doesn't touch on wiki in any way)... That is primarily why people hire consultants just as a class of occupation. Neither of you have any experience in paid consulting with regards to wikipedia unless I'm missing something. Do you have any relevant examples or experiences to share? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:12, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I have experience of advising regarding Wikipedia and teaching Wikipedia editing, all unpaid but in some cases I did receive expenses. I also have experience of working for Wikimedia UK and of dealing with the general public as a high profile Wikipedia person at Wikimania 2014 and as one of many ordinary attendees at the 2005 and 2016 Wikimanias. I also frequently wear Wikipedia t-shirts which sometimes leads to being asked questions about Wikipedia when I'm out and about. I also have some experience of paid and unpaid consulting regarding matters unrelated to Wikipedia. This means I have very extensive experience of the types of questions people ask and the types of things they want advice about, spanning over a decade of interactions. So, I do know what I'm talking about. Now would you like to answer my question? Thryduulf (talk) 23:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I don't have any evidence that that people acting in good faith are "tiny niches" but I did not make that claim so thats not surprising... As for "for profit enterprises don't spend money on things which don't have a profit potential..." I wasn't aware that there was an exception to WP:COI and WP:PROMOTION based on interest alignment. I'd be interested to hear more about that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  So you're saying that you don't have any particularly more relevant experience than us, but you're putting down our views for lack of relevant experience and promoting your own? And you apparently think that a company will not see such things as having the Wikipedia page about them not be an attack page as being advantageous to their efforts without directly being promotion? Got it. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not sure how that doesn't fall under WP:PROMOTION can you explain where you're coming from? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Addressing an attack page is very much in line with what WP:PROMOTION says a Wikipedia page should be: "Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style". If the page about CorpityCorp says primarily "they make really crappy products and everyone hates them, they stink and the Feds have outlawed half of them and should outlaw the other half", the CorpityCorp CEO wanting to know how to get that non-objective, biased material off of their page is not seeking to add puffery, advertising, promotion but merely removing inaccurate and biased POV statements, in line with our goals. Paying someone for some time discussing how one gets such a page deleted or have the attack material removed is not asking them to edit in promotion. It's not seeking to edit out negative but potentially appropriate material. It would be asking how to achieve edits that should be non-controversial. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:21, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  And in that scenario we would absolutely require the COI to be disclosed... There is no "fixing an attack page" exemption to disclosing a COI. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:25, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  So if someone advised the person from corpitycorp that they need to disclose their COI, make an edit request, and make neutral posts at coin/npovn explaining their COI and the article issues, the person giving advice would have to disclose a COI on-wiki? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:44, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  In context both the CorpityCorp CEO and the person they paid have a COI, if either intends to edit the page CorpityCorp of course they're going to have to disclose that COI. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:47, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, the person who makes the edits should absolutely disclose their COI. But if the hired admin is telling them "here's how you declare a COI, here's where the template it request an edit is, here's a list of deletion processes", none of that is the admin actually doing anything on Wikipedia. There's nothing there that requires the admin to declare a COI. If the admin were to be the one who, say, closes the deletion discussion, then yes, there's a COI problem there. But not at the advise level. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:51, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  You're conflating two discussions, in the current hypothetical the editor is no an admin. If editor X is paid one million dollars by CorpityCorp they most definitely need to declare that COI if they intend to edit CorpityCorp... If not then the COI exists but doesn't need to be disclosed. What we appear to have community consensus for is that admins are to be held to higher standards than regular editors, hence the suggestion that admins should be required to disclose the COI regardless of whether they intend to edit a related page. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  This is just common sense from my POV. Again: we either permit this sort of behavior, or we do not. What you permit, you promote. The question is, do we want to promote this type of conduct among sysops? I think the answer is obviously "no". So it should not be permitted. If it is permitted, we are setting a horrible precedent. We cannot tolerate admins collecting undisclosed sums of money from unknown entities for "Wikipedia advising". That's extremely sus, and I hope we can all agree on that, regardless of our differing opinions as to what, exactly, should be done about it.

  I also think it's naïve to suggest, as some have, that the entities paying for "Wikipedia advising" are probably just nice, friendly, innocent folks who want to learn how to be a good Wikipedian. Come on. Pecopteris (talk) 01:06, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not sure you're actually reading what other people are writing. We are not talking about "paying for Wikipedia advertising", and despite your assumption of bad faith there are people willing to pay to learn how to do things in accordance with Wikipedia's rules. Thryduulf (talk) 08:25, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Pecopteris: NatGertler has pointed out on my talk page that I misread your comment (you wrote "advising" I read "advertising") so I redact my previous statement, however my principle point stands - there very much are people who will (offer to) pay to learn how to do things properly. Several of the people I've interacted with in Wikipedia training sessions would have paid if we weren't offering it for free. These are people who either share Wikipedia's goal or have a goal that is entirely compatible with Wikipedia's, i.e. we want a well-written article (i.e. comprehensive and neutral) about every notable subject, they want a well-written Wikipedia article (i.e. one that is comprehensive and which meets all our polices, whatever those policies are) about a notable topic with which they are associated. If we prohibit these people getting the advice they seek from white-hat editors then they will have no choice but to get the advice from black-hat editors, which does not benefit anybody. Thryduulf (talk) 16:13, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Nothing anyone has proposed would preclude people from paying to learn wikipedia from white hat editors, they just wouldn't be able to pay a current admin to teach them. What of value does a current admin bring to the table that another experienced editor or a retired admin doesn't? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:06, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Nothing anyone has proposed would preclude people from paying to learn wikipedia from white hat editors that might not be your proposal, but at least two proposals in this thread seek to prohibit everybody from receiving any payment for any Wikipedia activity. The effect of at least one of them would also prohibit things like receiving grants of books to improve articles.

  Why does it matter whether a good faith actor giving correct advice is an admin or not? Thryduulf (talk) 18:34, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  I don't actually see anyone making that argument, I see other people characterizing their argument as that which isn't really the same thing. Is receiving grants of books to improve an article a common thing? I've never come across that and I can't find it in the discussion here. It matters because admins have special privileges both official and unofficial within our system, we rely on them to be trustworthy and there's no possible way that the trust would remain if they were making a living on consulting for notable people and organizations without the community being able to know what notable people and organizations were paying them (and even then it would likely be the source of endless friction). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:55, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  I do not see this supposed second discussion here, nor do I see any relevance to the general topic at hand if it did, which is admins offering to be advisors. I have not seen anyone suggesting we should do away with our paid editing policies. And I am not seeing that supposed community consensus in this discussion, I am seeing an array of views. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 01:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  I thought the topic was about admins being paid to be advisors, not offering advice (something nobody seems to have a problem with). That community consensus is not in this discussion, it is longstanding... Admins are held to a higher standard than regular admins, thats how it works. Do you agree that under our current rules an admin who was paid one million dollars to advise CorpityCorp would have to disclose a COI if they wanted to edit CorpityCorp or a related article? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:16, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not going to jump through hoops answering obvious questions that are not at hand. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:43, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  If it was obvious I wouldn't have asked, you appear to be arguing that providing paid advice has no COI impact on the person giving the advice. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Wow. You are just acting cartoonishly desperate in your efforts to have what I say not count... and in this case, claiming that I "appear to be arguing" the exact opposite of something i have specifically repeatedly said ("If the admin is administering over things with a visible relationship to who he is getting paid by, then yes, that's a conflict of interest", "If the admin were to be the one who, say, closes the deletion discussion, then yes, there's a COI problem there." "Like all COIs, it only needs announcement if they are editing (or administering) in their COI areas, which are already covered by existing policy.") If you're just here to troll me, feel free to use my talk page instead. -- Nat Gertler (talk) Nat Gertler (talk) 18:46, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Then I guess it wasn't obvious was it... Of course what you say counts, WP:CIVIL please. Would you care to reframe your disagreement with my position if you feel that I am ignoring what you say? Do you actually disagree with it? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Kindly find someone else to ask to jump through your hoops... or better yet no one. I am not in the mood for sea lion games. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:12, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  You were just warned about being CIVIL, do I now have to link WP:NPA before you interact with your fellow editors with respect and camaraderie? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Only in death I completely disagree with this and agree with Christie, Rhododendrites and Nat Gertler. Nobody should be editing or admining in a way that is non-neutral, but simply being employed by someone does not generate a conflict of interest with everything even tangentially related to everything that organisation does. I used to work for Wikimedia UK, this did not affect my ability to edit and admin in a neutral manner regarding things unrelated to the Wikimedia movement. My receiving expenses to teach people how to edit Wikipedia did not result in my doing anything to undermine the neutrality of the encyclopaedia - indeed by teaching subject matter experts how to edit in accordance with policy it strengthened it. Advising people, whether they are your employers or not, how to follow policy is something everybody should do when the circumstances arise. Thryduulf (talk) 18:11, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I was once asked by an employer for advice on something they wanted to add to Wikipedia about the company. My advice was along the lines of "Don't do that like that, because..." and I explained the relevant policy. What a surprise it is now to discover what an evil and corrupt admin I was at the time - I guess it's just as well I resigned the bit before I was caught. People ask me how to do things on Wikipedia all the time, and it helps both those people and the project if I advise them - but if I'm an admin, I mustn't do that for an employer, or for someone who makes me a cup of tea that they don't charge me for? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:51, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  There is a big difference between an editor being asked for advice by their employer (who was going to pay them anyway), and an editor proactively soliciting payment for advice, and trading specifically on their admin status. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 20:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  If you think one is acceptable and the other is not, what is it about the unacceptable one that makes it unacceptable? Where is the line between them? Thryduulf (talk) 20:16, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  The latter is intentionally and proactively marketing themself as an admin-for-hire. Their admin status is an intrinsic part of the deal. They are accessing a revenue stream that would be unavailable to them if they were not an admin. Whereas the former is employed primarily for other purposes, and the giving of advice doesn’t influence their remuneration. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 20:43, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  If the paid activity is limited to advice then there is no difference between admins and non-admins. There's no way to "trade on their admin status". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:47, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  Sure there is. As I mentioned above, the specific ad we're talking about states that they're an admin. What purpose is there in making that statement if not to make you more attractive to hire than all the other people advertising their wiki services for hire? RoySmith (talk) 20:51, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  A fair point, so I'll rephrase: if they're limited to giving advice, the admin bit makes no difference to the advice they can give. I suppose in this case mentioning it in the ad is intended to signal that they are a competent and experienced editor, which is probably the case. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I would be more comfortable if they demonstrated their skill by listing the number of WP:FA or WP:GA nominations they've had approved. Or how many of those reviews they've done. Or their work at WP:GOCE, WP:AFC, WP:NPP, or some other area of the pedia that involves writing and/or evaluating content. If you were looking to hire a pen, would you be happy to see a candidate walk into the interview carrying a mop?

  My admin work has mostly taught me how to identify sockpuppets. Surely that's not something that would be valuable to a potential client looking for advice on how to write articles. What would be valuable to a potential client is that I could show them how to make their sockpuppets undetectable. But I assume that's not what most people here would be happy with me doing. RoySmith (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  What is valuable to a potential client depends on what they are looking to hire someone to do/advise on. If you were looking for someone to advise you about writing Good or featured articles, then yes you want someone experienced in those areas (who may or may not be an admin), but many (maybe most) people looking for advice about Wikipedia will not understand what those terms mean if they've even heard of them - they'll be looking for someone who is generally clueful and someone like that will likely think "administrator" means just that. If you are looking for someone to advise you about how to comply with policies regarding COI or image licenses or notability or something else then you want someone who knows the relevant policies. Not everybody who is looking for help regarding things other than content is doing so for nefarious reasons, not everybody who is offering to advise regarding Wikipedia is doing so for nefarious reasons. Thryduulf (talk) 21:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  If a potential client is conversant enough with Wikipedia that they know what WP:NPP means, they probably don't need advice. "Administrator" is a word that conveys "I have a reasonable degree of knowledge about the matter"... and in the case of an administrator, that's at least mostly true. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:48, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  It conveys power but it only implies knowledge. As you say not all admins are equally knowledgable, but they are more or less equally powerful. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Actually "admin" implies to the average person "in charge of deciding what does and doesn't go into an article" and "has special skills and abilities that non-admins don't have". If the reason you can sell your services is because you're taking advantage of that generalized misunderstanding by even many registered users, you are taking advantage of people's ignorance, misrepresenting yourself, and just generally being...well, again, I know that people who are aware of this editor's identity believe they are someone who would never do anything to harm the project. But, yeah. Valereee (talk) 17:17, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

• I'd just like to take a moment to remind everyone about Levivich Advisor Group's price-matching guarantee: if you find cheaper advice anywhere, just let us know and we will match or beat that price -- guaranteed. Levivich Advisor Group: the Cheapest Advice, Guaranteed!™ Levivich (talk) 17:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I could put my two cents in here ... but never mind. Wehwalt (talk) 17:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  I think for two cents I can write a script that emails people "no" (and possibly on occasions "maybe"). Then I can upsell on more specific advice, like why not. Alpha3031 (t • c) 13:03, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

• IMO it it shouldn't and isn't going to happen that we'd implement tougher rules for off-wiki advising for admins than for editors. COI is already defined too broadly and vaguely and this would be a massive expansion into more broadness and vagueness. And the COI disclosure rules amount to near-self-outing and so are really only workable for SPA's and other similar narrower role accounts and a typical admin is likely to be the opposite of that. North8000 (talk) 18:22, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
• From what I can tell it is just not against the rules, and I am kind of fine with that. They are not editing or using tools, just talking. Now the moment they do edit or use admin tools then we have WP:PAID & WP:UPE to cover it. I do not see the purposed changes to be particularly helpful. PackMecEng (talk) 00:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
• I know opinions are a dime a dozen and I'm sure someone's already echoed my thoughts, but my gut reaction is

• if they're being paid to do anything that an unregistered user couldn't do themselves--create pages, delete pages, directly edit protected/semi-protected articles, give opinions in discussions solely because the company hopes their admin status will confer more weight to their thoughts, etc.--or if they don't disclose what they were paid for, that's not okay.
• Otherwise is an admin's being paid to just give advice, or to do ordinary uncontroversial edits ("this company asked me to convert their draft into proper Wiki-markup"), etc., and they disclose exactly which edits they were paid for, that doesn't seem so bad to me. 2603:8001:4542:28FB:D4B6:F2D4:E313:524B (talk) 00:12, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Well...my first reaction, upon learning that an admin is waving around their mop to make money, is certainly "Yuck". But "yuck" is not a basis for rational thought. As some others have stated above, I've been approached by people with offers to do various things for pay, and my response is a somewhat more polite but no less firm "HELL no". And don't think simple "advising" couldn't cause problems—right off the top of my head, I can think of some truly nasty black-hat practices I could teach someone to do, because I've seen them done, and seen how the black hats ultimately screwed up and got caught. (I will not, for obvious reasons, be sharing specifics here.) But of course, a lot of experienced non-admins could do that too. I just see a big difference between an admin advertising their services as such, and an admin happening to be asked for advice by someone, even if it's an employer or the like, and realistically, admins are probably some of the best people in that type of instance to tell someone how to get it right and not cause disruption. (In a lot of cases, of course, the answer to that "How do I...?" question will be "You don't", but well, admins will generally be used to telling people news they don't want to hear, too.) I also see a major difference between an admin receiving something like an honorarium for speaking to a general audience about their experiences on Wikipedia, or some complimentary food at an event, and an admin seeking to be hired by a specific client to act as their advisor. So, I don't know whether we would have a consensus that admins should be forbidden from doing that, but if I found out one was doing it my regard for them would drop by quite a lot, and I think from this discussion, I'm not by any means the only one. I'm definitely in the "should not" camp here—I'm just not sure if I'd take that final step into "may not". Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 09:25, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Seraphim I think you bring up a crucial point. I think there is a difference between marketing ones services and some of the other scenarios discussed - e.g. an employer asking for advice. The element of solicitation does seem like part of what has caused me unease. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Agree with Barkeep49; there is a palpable difference between being asked for advice and actively soliciting a service to provide advice. It seems to me, from reading this thread, that it's the solicitation that causes most concern, not the actual provision of advice/support/assistance to others. Risker (talk) 17:46, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  This is where I am, too. I see that there are multiple people here who know and trust this admin and believe them to be unlikely to do anything to harm the project, but I can't help but think parlaying your mop into a paid gig, no matter how you do it, is a bit...well, icky. Resign the mop and hire out to give advice as an experienced editor, but if the mop is what gets you the bigger bucks or makes you more attractive as a consultant, that's really problematic. I feel like there's a clear choice to be made, and it shouldn't be difficult. Keep the mop, OR get paid. Not both. Valereee (talk) 16:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

• This is very simple… if you are paid to edit WP, disclose it. If you are paid to advise someone else about editing WP, disclose it. If you are paid to do anything related to WP, disclose it.

What happens next depends on the nature of the edit. Blueboar (talk) 16:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

What is lost in a lot of the comments above is that there is no clear goal for what we want to achieve or why:

• If an editor is acting in bad faith everything we say here is irrelevant - they have no incentive to follow the rules (indeed they have an incentive not to). When discovered, editors acting in bad faith should be sanctioned (up to and including bans) regardless of the way they are acting in bad faith. We thus do not need to consider them further here.
• If an editor is acting in good faith then there are a few possible outcomes:
  1. The advice is good and results in an improvement to the encyclopaedia. We should be encouraging this, not making it more difficult let alone prohibiting it.
  2. The advice is good, but there is no change to the encyclopaedia. This could be neutral (in which case why should we care about it?) or it could be a benefit to the encyclopaedia (e.g. someone chooses not to do something that is against policy) - again this is something we should be encouraging.
  3. The advice is good, but there is a negative change to the encyclopaedia. This is by definition not the fault of the person giving the advice, most likely the advice has been ignored - in which case it's likely that the action would have been done anyway so the net effect on the project is neutral.
  4. The advice was bad. This is something we should care about, but what we should do about it will depend on the nature of the advice. For example there may be a CIR issue, it may be that there is a misunderstanding about policy (in which case we should consider whether the policy is at fault), etc
• In none of these scenarios am I seeing anything that suggests banning the giving of advice, whether for pay or otherwise, will be a positive to the encyclopaedia. Thryduulf (talk) 18:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
• Exploiting (because that's really what it is) a privilege granted by the community for personal gain is, if nothing else, unethical. A significant portion of projectspace guidance is dedicated to putting personal desires and opinions aside to put the wiki first, e.g. WP:INVOLVED, WP:COI, WP:3RR, and leveraging community trust for money is violates the spirit of that. WP:TOOLMISUSE says Administrator tools may not be used as part of any paid editing activity. It does not specify that the activity must be editing itself, but regardless I have a pretty hard time believing that any admin would seriously think advertising their adminship to solicit payment for advice is 100% in line with what is written. There's also a notable difference between soliciting payment and being approached; I don't at all think there's a problem with sysops giving advice if asked – I think there is an issue if they seek personal reward from it. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 10:02, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

If someone writes on a job board website, "I am User:[whatever] on Wikipedia," then User:whatever should either confirm or deny that link on-wiki, so everyone (both on-wiki and off-wiki) knows whether the person on the job board website really is the same as the Wikipedia editor. Just a few months ago, we saw an example where someone off-wiki was pretending to be a wiki admin in order to get a job. At the very least, policy should require Wikipedia editors to disclose on their userpage any off-wiki accounts on job boards (or similar) if those off-wiki accounts claim to be a specific Wikipedia editor. This is to prevent fraud and impersonation.

Let's talk about the real issue, though, which is monetizing Wikipedia editing. I'm rather amused to see all the people who are outraged that an admin would advertise Wikipedia consulting services and trade on their adminship ("Hire me, I have been a Wikipedia admin for X years...") or editing experience ("I have been a Wikipedia editor for X years," "I have made X new articles"). This is amusing because it's so very common that people monetize their Wikipedia editing (that is, use their volunteer editing to get money in one way or another), and the community's reaction varies from a shrug to outrage based on... I'm not sure what. Here's a list of just some of the many Wikipedia editors who have monetized their editing experience:

• Jimbo, who sold an NFT of his first edit for $750,000, among many other monetizations
• Every editor who ever worked for the WMF
• Every Wikipedian-in-Residence
• Every editor who gets paid by a Wikimedia affiliate
• Every WikiEd instructor who gets paid to edit or supervise/coordinate others' editing
• Every editor who's ever gotten paid by a Wikimedia grant to edit or supervise/coordinate others' editing
• Every editor who has sold a book about Wikipedia editing (or tried to)
• That one editor who famously got tenure at his university based on his Wikipedia editing, and anyone else who's put their Wikipedia editing experience on a resume or otherwise used it to get paying work (or a promotion)

There are a ton of admins and non-admins who fall into one of those above categories. (I think mostly admins, in fact, though I'm not sure.) What is the difference between an admin being paid as a Wikipedian-in-Residence and an admin posting an ad on a job board website? I don't see a meaningful difference there.

The other day we had GTAV as the TFA on the front page because it was the 10th anniversary of the game's release. That work well for the game's 10th-anniversary internet advertising campaign. Is there anything a paid editor could have done to have Wikipedia advertise GTAV that volunteer editors didn't already do for free? And when it's not GTAV, it's Taylor Swift or some other product we're often advertising on the main page. Wikipedia editors promote businesses and products for free all the time. Whether they get paid for it or not, I don't think even makes a difference. Levivich (talk) 17:52, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Note that many are of the opinion that Admins should not hold WMF or wikipedian-in-residence positions, there seems to be a pretty diverse collection of views from the community on this and you're right that consensus ranges from "a shrug to outrage" depending on the context. I would caution both the contingent that wants to treat admins as Roman Senators and ban them from any commercial activity even marginally related to their roles and the contingent that wants to see no restrictions put on the commercial activities of Admins at all that neither of those extremes is sustainable. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Levivich regarding If someone writes on a job board website, "I am User:[whatever] on Wikipedia," then User:whatever should either confirm or deny that link on-wiki... we've got that already. See foundation:Policy:Terms of Use under Paid Contributions Without Disclosure. I'd be surprised if you could find anybody who has ever complied with that, but it's there. RoySmith (talk) 17:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I feel like there are levels, here. Too lazy to look into the Jimbo thing, but working at WMF, being a WiR, getting paid by an affiliate, being a WikiEd instructior, and getting a grant all to me seem fairly innocuous, although IMO they all should be disclosed. Selling a book about WP editing...meh. I don't actually object to someone doing that if they aren't giving themselves false authority by using their adminship. The tenure, well that's on the Uni, IMO. Who does that? Valereee (talk) 18:03, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd also add the reward board, where some have offered cash awards, as a place where the community looks the other way on paid editing. Though I think it is challenging to put into practice, I think it may be more in line with community expectations to set a standard for ethical conduct for all editors, rather than just a subset.

Note that disclosing external accounts on Wikipedia is already a mandatory policy that was passed on Meta-wiki. isaacl (talk) 18:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I suspect "Every editor who ever worked for the WMF" is too broad. Community liaisons and such, sure. But I doubt editing experience carries much weight for things like software engineering jobs for over a decade now beyond indicating that someone might be more intrinsically motivated. I've even known WMF managers who might well have seen editing experience as a negative, since it could lead to employees pushing for things "the community" wants rather than what the manager wants or publicly disagreeing with WMF actions. Anomie⚔ 12:11, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

This is not addressed by existing policies and guidelines

The discussions above are about whether the behaviour in question is ethical or unethical; or harmful or harmless. What most people seem to agree on is that it's not banned by the existing policies and guidelines, since WP:COI's language is very clear about its application to edits. Can I suggest that those who think a change to COI (or elsewhere) is desirable work on wording? Nothing new is getting said above. I think getting a consensus just among those who want a change would force resolution of some of the issues raised above, which might shortcut some debate when the wording is proposed. The conversation above is becoming a sinkhole and seems unlikely to go anywhere. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:16, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Suggestion: change WP:ADMINACCT from:

Conduct elsewhere incompatible with adminship (off-site attacking, etc.)

to:

Conduct elsewhere incompatible with adminship (off-site attacking, seeking financial gain from adminship, etc.).

The context of this passage is a list of things that may lead to sanctions or desysopping. It isn’t an outright prohibition, but is strongly suggestive that this conduct is unbecoming of an administrator.

Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 20:43, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I hadn't been ready to propose a change which is why I didn't start this conversation with any. But Seraphimblade's point did crystalize something for me and is making me think of possible wording. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:47, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Pretty well established this isn't against the rules, but in the interest of finding the smallest policy change which would satisfy the greatest number of people, I wonder how many people in this discussion who have expressed objections would have those at least somewhat assuaged by saying "admins can advise just like anyone else, subject to the limitations at WP:TOOLMISUSE and WP:COI, but they should not use their adminship to advertise their services (i.e. when you post an ad for services, omit 'I'm an admin')"? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:51, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

That, as a practical matter, very likely will make it much more difficult to get hired, especially if you are not allowed to mention it at any stage of the engagement process. I don't see this as a small change. Wehwalt (talk) 14:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think "you are not allowed to mention [you are an admin] at any stage of the engagement process" would be at all practical, let alone enforceable. Some people considering when considering whether to hire a given user will look at their userpage, if they see that says the user is an admin they may ask about it. It's also a key part of an editor's experience and is going to be difficult to avoid mentioning. Personally I would rather not restrict what neutral and factual information about themselves and their experience, the project will not benefit from that in any way. It may also make it harder for good faith editors to get hired than bad faith ones, which something that would harm the project. Thryduulf (talk) 15:22, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

If you

1. wouldn't get hired if you weren't an admin, you're taking advantage of your "special" status
2. are allowing your client to continue to misunderstand that admins don't actually have any special control over content and that the fact you're an admin makes you absolutely no more valuable to them than if you were an equally experienced non-admin advisor

...well, honestly this is looking more and more slimy to me. Valereee (talk) 17:06, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

• I don't think that someone should be using their status as an admin to increase the profitability of their advising or paid editing gig in the first place. Adminship involves responsibilities and trusts that go beyond just what you do with the tools; while obviously it's not possible to demand that every single mention or reference to their status as an admin serve the goals of Wikipedia, I think it's fair to say that using it as an advertising point for a business is completely inappropriate. If it would be harder for them to get hired without advertising that they're an admin, then they shouldn't be getting hired. And if, as a practical matter, not mentioning that they're an admin would make it harder for them to be hired, this does imply that as a practical matter, at least some of the people hiring them probably expect to get some sort of special inside influence or information in a way that creates, for Wikipedia as a whole, the appearance of impropriety. And there is precedent for binding admins against even the appearance of impropriety -- it is part of the rationale for WP:INVOLVED, for instance. --Aquillion (talk) 09:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  My point was manly that forbidding someone from mentioning they were and admin at any time (rather than just in an advert) would be impractical and unenforceable. However, if good faith advisors are not allowed to say they are an admin but bad faith advisers are because they by definition aren't following our rules (and as we see with paid editing scams, there are many claims of adminship by people who are not) then the unsuspecting client is more likely to hire a bad faith adviser than a good faith one - this will make things worse for enwp. Thryduulf (talk) 09:51, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I think there should be guidance that consultants/advisors inform their clients that they remain ethically bound to follow Wikipedia's policy, guidance, and best practices, and that they cannot agree to any terms that would limit their ability to do so. Thus consultants would be free to take the same steps as they would ordinarily if they suspected their clients of any non-policy conforming behaviour. isaacl (talk) 15:19, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this. Perhaps also we could set up an information page that those engaging in paid editing and paid advising are required to inform their clients of. That page would explain in plain English (i.e. without Wikipedia jargon) what paid editors and advisers and their clients must do and what they may not do, along with a link to send an email to (probably) the paid queue, if they wish to let us know about people not doing as they should. Thryduulf (talk) 15:27, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

That could also be handed out by advanced rights holders who list such on their resumes and gain employment. Wehwalt (talk) 15:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:WikiProject Cooperation page covers some of this, though it's not maintained. Full disclosure: I hate typing the names of WikiProject Integrity and WikiProject Cooperation. The concepts are so much broader than how they apply to paid editing. isaacl (talk) 00:05, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Maybe amend WP:TOOLMISUSE to Administrator tools may not be used as part of any paid editing activity Administrators may not solicit payment for any Wikipedia-related activities, except as a Wikipedian-in-Residence, or when the payment is made by the Wikimedia Foundation or an affiliate of the WMF. Emphasis on soilicit -- this wouldn't completely ban COI/PAID editing for sysops, but it would prohibit them from proactively seeking payment for their activities as appears to be the case here. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 16:24, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

An admin who receives payment from any company (regarding the Foundation, let it make the rules in this context) has a COI for that company and should never use the admin bit in it's favor. This is even merely peeking at deleted content. This applies even to a janitor who the company doesn't even know he ever touched a computer. Animal lover |666| 18:51, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

That's a shout. Extending the sentence rather than replacing part of it might be better, so: Administrators may not solicit payment for any Wikipedia-related activities, nor may they use their tools as part of any conflict-of-interest activity, except as a Wikipedian-in-Residence, or when the payment is made by the Wikimedia Foundation or an affiliate of the WMF. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 19:31, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm still not understanding what is trying to be achieved here? How will these changes benefit the encyclopaedia? Thryduulf (talk) 19:37, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd forbid it. (I'm not sure I wouldn't, either, I'm still considering that.) I am sure, though, that if it's allowed, anyone who is "advising" clients on Wikipedia-related matters should be required to disclose that, even if not directly making edits. Basically—if you make money from Wikipedia-related activities, you disclose. Period, end of story. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

• If you make money from Wikipedia-related activities, you disclose.
• "advising" clients on Wikipedia-related matters should be required to disclose that, even if not directly making edits.

These two issues to me are distinct. Disclosure is a tick box exercise. It probably allows the inviting of scrutiny for sure, and yes being paid is a compounding issue. Ultimately our paid editing policies are merely extensions of a lot of existing COI policy. But indirect impacts to the projects only being mitigated through WP:PAID would leave some glaring holes because there is little precedent or policy in this space.

The root issue is we don't want someone repeatedly giving bad advice off-wiki either deliberately, accidently through bias, or accidentally through incompetence; that results in damage to the projects or an erosion of its values. Paid or otherwise.

Outside of the extremely broad ranging and all encompassing aspects of WP:ADMINACCT and WP:ADMINCOND do we actually have any solid explicit policy basis that could be acted upon for any account? If you put the admin tools aside do we have any onsite policy that forbids any contributor from advising a client from taking actions on site that run in opposition to furthering the interests of the encyclopedia? WP:EXTERNALREL falls short; the terms of use doesn't explicitly require a disclosure for the the provision of advice, nor does it exclude non-editing activities which might result in on wiki disruption. WP:MEAT you'd think would cover it, but the policy as written doesn't. many instances can get plugged with WP:CANVASSING but if there isn't collusion to disrupt consensus processes it doesn't apply.

The easiest way to plug this gap for non-admins and admins alike would be think of it in a similar way to disallowing proxying edits for banned editors. In my mind it would be something fairly broad. Something along the lines of advice or guidance that leads to edits which are in contravention of policy, could make you accountable for those actions. Particularly if the advice itself is egregiously and/or consistently incorrect or out of alignment in policy, or that the outcomes of advice are in more than one instance resulting in egregious and/or consistent breaches of policy. You could apply that in a lot of settings. Seddon ^talk 23:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

advice or guidance that leads to edits which are in contravention of policy, could make you accountable for those actions. If we tell user:Example at the teahouse or on their talk page not to do X because it's against policy, but then they go and do it anyway, we don't hold the person giving advice as responsible for Example's actions. What makes it any different if the advice is given somewhere off Wikipedia?

If you give advice that is egregiously and/or consistently incorrect or out of alignment in policy then you should be dealt with identically regardless of where you give that advice. Unless there is some fundamental difference between venues I'm not aware of? Thryduulf (talk) 14:38, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

What about advice on how to avoid scrutiny of COI edits? I can think of several ways to do that. Valereee (talk) 10:46, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Why the automatic assumption of bad faith? But regardless, advice of how to avoid scrutiny of COI edits, like all advice about how to evade policy, be out of alignment with that policy which is explicitly addressed in the comment you replied to.Thryduulf (talk) 11:34, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Because it's harder to assume good faith when someone is not being transparent about what they're doing. Valereee (talk) 14:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The majority of our policies assume that sanctionable activities are based on actions taken on wiki. Its easy to sanction someone for repeatedly giving out bad advice at the teahouse, there are multiple justifications you could use. Now have the individual give the same advice off-wiki. There seems to be little precedent to handle this without Arbcom setting caselaw. Seddon ^talk 19:15, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I've elaborated above on why I think this behavior is unacceptable (see my comment at 10:02, 17 September 2023) but frankly, the idea that you can pay a Wikipedia admin to help you gives the illusion of bribery. I know the arbs have said that in this instance the admin hasn't acted improperly, but merely the optics of this scenario are a consideration themselves, and I think they pose a threat to Wikipedia's integrity. Not to mention the disrespect soliciting payment shows to the Teahouse, Help Desk, IRC, and mentoring program helpers who continually do this sort of thing for free – an admin leveraging their community-appointed status to make a quick buck is a far cry from the volunteer nature of this project. While I would prefer to forbid this practice entirely, I recognize that I'm on the more critical side here, and I would support something along the lines of what Seraphimblade has said above me. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 21:01, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@How will these changes benefit the encyclopaedia?...I think something like Giraffer's suggestion benefits the encyclopedia in the same way any COI disclosure benefits the encyclopedia: it gets increased scrutiny on possible COI edits so they don't slip under the radar. In the case of any experienced editor who is "advising" a client, that advice could easily include -- in fact, almost certainly would include, if you're of any use to your client at all -- how to avoid attracting hostile scrutiny. In fact the reason a client is likely seeking out advice is because they've attracted hostile scrutiny with past edits -- maybe to the point some admin has protected the article about them or blocked their PR rep -- and the first question they'll be asking is how to avoid that in future.

Oh, and the reason they're paying an admin more? Because they believe an admin will be able to help more. Which is why it's kind of icky to even mention you're an admin. Even if you tell them til you're blue in the fact that the fact you're an admin doesn't actually help them any more than the fact you're an experienced editor, they won't believe you. Wink-wink, right? Because why would you even mention it if it didn't mean anything? Icky. Valereee (talk) 10:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

In the case of any experienced editor who is "advising" a client, that advice could easily include -- in fact, almost certainly would include, if you're of any use to your client at all -- how to avoid attracting hostile scrutiny. once again with the assumption of bad faith on all parts. A good adviser would advise that the best way to avoid hostile scrutiny is to scrupulously follow policy. If the client's goals are compatible with Wikipedia's goals this benefits everybody by getting increased eyes on the content which is the most likely way it will be improved. If the client's goals are incompatible with Wikipedia then the advice to follow policy will be not to make the edits, etc. and so everybody benefits - Wikipedia doesn't get content it doesn't want and the client doesn't get hostile scrutiny. Thryduulf (talk) 11:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Again with the insistence that AGF is a suicide pact. :) I actually am probably more guilty than most of assuming good faith with a paid or COI editor who has disclosed. I have a much harder time AGFing when the person isn't disclosing, which this person apparently isn't doing. Valereee (talk) 14:54, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the absolute bare minimum is a very transparent and prominent disclosure on their user that this is something they do, but I'm still unhappy that they're making money off of having permissions that aren't available to everyone. It doesn't matter if they don't actually use the buttons. It's reminding me very strongly of Hunter Biden getting his dad to conference in on business calls just to shoot the shit with the people Hunter wanted to do business with. Did either of them do anything illegal? No. Is it slimy? Yep. Valereee (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

+1 to your first point. Going even further, I would argue we should extend policy to require admins to disclose all payments they have taken related to Wikipedia that haven't originated from the WMF/affiliates. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 19:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed and its my understanding that payments from the WMF/affiliates are all disclosed by the WMF/affiliates (at least in general). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

That might make interesting reading. Where? Wehwalt (talk) 20:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Giraffer, wouldn't your suggestion require an editor to out themselves now if they had done something in the past that was not then the subject of a policy or guideline? That sort of retroactivity doesn't seem fair, though I understand the motivation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:35, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

That's sloppy wording on my part, apologies. The idea is that admins shouldn't (in future) be taking undisclosed non-WMF payment for Wikipedia-related activities. I agree that it's not fair to hold yesterday's activities to tomorrow's standards. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 21:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The way that my workplace addresses outside activities and financial gain is through a full disclosure of activities to a committee, who then determines whether or not there is a conflict of interest. So I think some type of disclosure is necessary, but I'm feeling a bit irked by people who say the admin needs to immediately resign because they inherently violated policy by advising on how to properly edit Wikipedia -- how? If that's the case, then we need to actually amend the policy to make that clear. I think I align with Boing! said Zebedee and Thryduulf on this one otherwise. It should be easy to detect and resolve a bright-line ethics violation when it comes to paid editing. Beyond that, let people make whatever living they have to do. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

[An] admin needs to immediately resign because they inherently violated policy by advising on how to properly edit Wikipedia -- how? this is the key thing that I still don't understand - why is anybody, admin or otherwise, advising people how to follow our policy a bad thing? Why does being paid or not paid make difference? Why does who pays you (WMF/affiliate/anybody else) make a difference? We surely want more people to edit? And we definitely want everybody who edits to follow the rules. Surely we should be encouraging activities that achieve these goals? Telling people they must choose between being an admin and advising people how to edit seems to run directly counter to those aims? Thryduulf (talk) 14:32, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Just to clarify my comments way upthread about government employees resigning before taking industry consulting jobs, that was meant as an example of how things are done in the real world. While I do feel that is a good model to emulate, I don't feel it is strictly necessary for an admin to resign their bit before doing consulting work. I however do feel quite strongly that they should disclose their activities, in the same manner that meta:Policy:Terms of Use requires for paid editing. RoySmith (talk) 14:43, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

The difference of course is that admins are not paid for being an admin. Your agreement with an employer who pays you may bar outside work related to what you are employed for, and refraining from such work is perhaps part of what you are being paid for. That is not the case with Wikipedia. Out of disclosure, the only thing I've ever gotten from the Foundation or anyone else is a T shirt which was the wrong size, and which I do not wear. I think I saw my wife wearing it some weeks ago but she does not edit Wikipedia. Wehwalt (talk) 15:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

... about government employees resigning before taking industry consulting jobs, that was meant as an example of how things are done in the real world. I think that's not a bad analogy except that we need to also remember that, depending on the institution, there are degrees to which an industry consulting job require disclosure and we also need to judge how this analogizes to our scenario where we have an admin advising customers on how to properly edit Wikipedia. If you are a mechanical engineer working for the D.O.E. specializing in developing iridescent gizmos, and you take a side job providing advice to other engineers on how to keep your workplace desk neat and organized, that's much different from serving as co-chair of the Iridescent Gizmo Enterprise, LLC, and receiving a salary while also being paid by the same government who buys gizmos from said company.

As Wehwalt said, the admin in question is not being paid specifically for their administrative duties or even necessarily their administration-specific expertise. Claims that any sort of compensation for any Wikipedia-related activity presents bad optics which we must prevent is, frankly, just not taking a realistic look at how people operate in the real world. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 19:40, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

That's as may be, but at the very least transparency should be required. If you think it's not a problem to act as a neat-desk consultant, then disclose that you're doing it, since that shouldn't be a problem. If you're right, no one will care. If you're wrong, well then, maybe you shouldn't have both positions. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:50, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

If it's not a problem, then why the rush to exclude compensation from WMF and affiliates? Do those carry some purity with them? Certainly the WMF has an interest in keeping the English Wikipedia onside, and has money. One would think they might use it. Disclosure, as you say, shouldn't be a problem. Wehwalt (talk) 22:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Because Wikimedians in Residence would object if they aren't excluded. My understanding is they believe the money would dry up if it means there'd be COI notices on talk pages. Valereee (talk) 10:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

There are multiple paid editors at Brigham Young University. The work they do benefits Wikipedia because they have unique access to the history of the Mormon church. But they're also LDS church members themselves, and church historians have presented Mormon history in a way that shows the church and its leaders in a friendly light. I think they have a COI. When I suggested they should disclose, Wikimedians in Residence objected. Valereee (talk) 11:05, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

If we are requesting a disclosure of paid editing for advising for the sake of consistency, then consistency demands that we apply that same standard across the board, otherwise this very much reeks of "rules for thee but not for me". Another thing that came to mind for me are professors who are also administrators but whose curriculum may include, incidentally or not, teaching their students how to create or edit articles in Wikipedia. I think you mentioned something like this earlier (WikiEd instructors?) but as I scroll up and see someone's suggestion that we amend the policy to read: Administrators may not solicit payment for any Wikipedia-related activities, to me that wording would require said admin-professor to turn in their mop in disgrace, with the likelihood being very low that they will ever get through RfA again. After all, they did the evil thing and took money.

Now I don't necessarily agree that we should have to go that far, but if we are going to change the policy on disclosures, then it needs to be done in a surgical way that makes logical sense and is in response to an actual problem, rather than as the result of a visceral disgust towards accepting money for Wikipedia-related activities. It's a simple and frank truth that most businesses or government entities generally don't go out of their way to create additional onerous regulations except in response to actual damages (fines, imprisonment, embarrassing news coverage, etc.), and I don't think we should act any differently here. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:31, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Consistency is a fine ideal, but I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. Wikimedians in Residence and WikiEd instructors aren't advertising admin advice on Upworks, and really they've disclosed their 'paid' status, even if not at the level of article talk. Valereee (talk) 16:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The BYU editors are at the bleeding edge of what is OK and note they often go over the edge into doing bad things like promoting BYU and the LDS church in general. If you want a clear example of positive and productive COI editing look elsewhere, its a complete shitshow over there. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:08, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't using them as a clear example. I was saying that while they do good things, they should disclose, but unfortunately asking them to disclose brought the WiR into the discussion, and they object to the entire idea. Valereee (talk) 16:38, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank god WiR doesn't make the rules then. Of course a WiR has a disclosable COI with their host institution, it baffles me that anyone would argue otherwise. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

What folks who have been WiR were saying, IIRC, was that having to disclose 'paid editing' at article talk would make the museums etc. reluctant to hire a WiR, as it might be seen as cast doubt on ethics of the article subject. And in any other case -- firms and celebs hiring someone to edit the article about them -- it would tend to do exactly that. I would think that we could come up with something that wouldn't frighten off institutions but would signal to experienced editors that there has been editing someone expert and hopefully ethical was paid to do. Valereee (talk) 17:02, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure there would be more demand for WiR if we gutted most of COI. Thats not a reason to gut COI. Why is reducing demand to what it should be a problem? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:42, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey, not defending the argument. Just reporting what reliable sources have said. :D Valereee (talk) 18:44, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Uh, just for clarity since I've clearly been unclear in this discussion multiple times: calling WiR a "reliable source" was sardonic, as of course the opinions of people who are WiR are their opinions alone unless otherwise specified. For further clarity, I'm not implying WiR is not a source we should rely on in discussions such as these. People who are WiR provide a perfectly reasonable source for the opinions of people who are WiR. Valereee (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Valereee, do you recall where and when this discussion took place? If we have people editing for pay and thinking they don't need to disclose because it's through WiR, that's a substantial problem. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

But Thryduulf, but then why not simply disclose the paid "advising"? If they're only advising rather than simply making edit requests, as any ethical paid editor would, there's a reason, and the only one I can really come up with is they don't want people to know. They're gaming the requirement to disclose. Valereee (talk) 10:56, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Why the scare quotes? Is this more assumption of bad faith? You need to remember that not everybody is out to harm the encyclopaedia, and the goals can be compatible. Someone advising is very different to a paid editor, whether ethical or not. A paid editor is making changes to the encyclopaedia on behalf of someone else. An adviser is explaining or teaching someone else how and when to make changes themself, which for an ethical adviser will include how and when they should not be making changes. Sure I've got no problem with disclosing, but it's not going to make much difference - good faith advisers will disclose but if they aren't making edits there isn't anything to check; bad faith advisers won't disclose whether we make it a requirement or not. Thryduulf (talk) 11:47, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

What's the difference between advising, proxying, and meatpuppetry? Levivich (talk) 13:56, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Thryduulf gives an example of advising in the section below that is clearly not a proxy for editing in any way. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

In theory, it's a good thing for editors to be teaching anybody and everybody about our policies. What I fear, however, is that all engagements will start from the premise that the end goal is to have an article and it's the job of the consultant to show the client how to navigate our policies to reach that goal.

I'm dubious any engagement could possibly end with, "In my opinion, looking at all the available WP:SIRS, your company does not qualify for an article. Here's my bill for $1000." Or, equally unlikely, "That statement in your article about your company being sleazy con artists who ripped off their customers and got convicted of fraud in court is sourced to multiple high-quality WP:RS and presented in a WP:NPOV compliant way. It belongs in the article. Here's my bill for $1000." RoySmith (talk) 14:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually I think all those scenarios are possible. It is also however the case that not all advising, paid or otherwise, is on behalf of a commercial organisation whose goal is to have a non-neutral article about themselves. Indeed I would suggest that this will be the minority of clients. See the section below for a real life example of advising that is completely unrelated to anything in your comment. Any policies regarding paid advising need to be applicable to all types of advising to which they apply, and those clients who do have a goal that is incompatible with Wikipedia's goals are significantly more likely to hire a bad-faith adviser (or even more likely, paid editor) who will not comply with any rules that they don't like, regardless of what those rules are. Thryduulf (talk) 14:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, @Thryduulf, see below where? Convo is just too long, and sometimes below means physically above. :) Valereee (talk) 15:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh, you mean the driving gig? But you hadn't advertised for a gig "giving advice about Wikipedia from a WP admin while driving", had you? Unless you were being paid for the advice, the fact you were being paid at the time for doing something completely else, no worries. Advise away. Valereee (talk) 16:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

RoySmith You are dubious any engagement between an advisor and a client could end with "In my expert opinion, having looked at all the available evidence, you are not able to do what you are trying to do and are totally and completely F**k**. Here's by bill for $1,000."? You obviously have never had the pleasure of either providing or receiving legal advice. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 20:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Levivich: Advising is giving advice, answering questions, teaching people how to edit and things of that nature. It may or may not result in any edits being made. This can be good or bad, depending on the intent of the person advising, the intent of the person being advised, and whether the advice is followed.

Proxying is making edits at the direction of someone else who is unable or unwilling to make the edit themselves. This can be good or bad, depending on the intent of the person giving the direction, how much judgement the person making the edit exercises and how good that judgement is. Answering edit requests is a form of proxying that is normally good, for example.

Meatpuppetry is making an edit at the direction of and in support of (the goal of) someone who is also making edits with the same goal. I cannot think of any circumstance which this is a good thing.

As you can see, all three are different. Thryduulf (talk) 14:09, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

What's the difference between:

1. Person A advising Person B to make an edit and B makes the edit, and
2. A directing B to make the edit and B makes the edit?

Does it matter if B asked A for advice or if A offered to give B advice? Does it matter if A believes B's edit is a good edit? Does it matter if B pays A or A pays B or neither one pays the other? Levivich (talk) 03:13, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

You appear to have so fundamentally misunderstood what advising is that I'm not sure I can help you understand, but I'll try one more time. Advising people is at its heart about teaching. Teaching people what edits are good and bad, how to make good edits, what policies need to be followed and how to follow them. Person B is fully in control of whether to write something and if so what to write, where to write, etc. There will be some direction involved in this, e.g. "you need to declare any conflicts of interest you have.", "if you want to flag a statement as missing a citation you need to type {{citation needed|date=September 2023}} after it", but fundamentally person B is the controlling mind.

In the case of proxying, person A is the controlling mind and functionally the author. Person B is editing on behalf of person A not on behalf of themselves. Thryduulf (talk) 09:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Drop the pompous condescension, I'm not misunderstanding anything. You can stop repeatedly defining these terms, I'm not asking you what they are, I'm asking you what the difference is between them, and whether those differences matter. Hence the "does it matter if" questions that you did not answer. I'm trying to push your analysis past the surface level of definitions and into the deeper level of looking at effects.

So, what difference does it make whether A is the controlling mind or B is the controlling mind? I also asked you, what difference does it make if A pays B, or if B pays A, or neither? No matter who the controlling mind is, no matter who pays whom, no matter if the advice/direction was solicited or offered... B's edit gets made. So why does it make a difference to the reader whether B's edit was made upon A's advice or upon A's direction, whether A was paid or not, whether B was paid or not, and who solicited whom, and so forth. In any event, no matter what the details of the A-B relationship, B's edit gets made. If advising has the same result as proxying for the reader (B's edit gets made), then why differentiate between the two? Or in other words, if you're going to allow advising why not allow proxying, too? What's the difference?

(The difference in effect, not in definition.) Levivich (talk) 12:24, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The difference is that when advising, B's edits get made by B (and/or the edits don't get made). When Proxying, A's edits get made by B.

We allow proxying in the form of edit requests. We allow proxying for even banned editors when the person making the edit takes responsibility for ensuring they benefit the project.

Whether someone is or is not paid is irrelevant. Whether the edit was solicited or not is irrelevant (again, edit requests are solicitation for someone to make an edit for you).

I see no benefit and lots of harm to the project from disallowing advising.

I see no benefit and lots of harm to the project from disallowing proxying. Thryduulf (talk) 12:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Because if someone is not disclosing that they're giving advice, I doubt "advising" is all they're doing. If they were being transparent about it, I'd assume good faith. But if they're hiding it, I don't really feel like it's ABFing to assume they've got something to hide. Valereee (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

What kind of disclosure would you be looking for? COI tags in article and talk space are there to help others watch out for NPOV violations. This is useful if a paid editor has been involved in writing the article. With paid advice, the advisor may have no idea which articles and edits will in the future be influenced by their advice, so this disclosure can't be expected in article space. Should it be on the user page? Would it have to stay there forever and prevent clean starts or other privacy related activities? If I go and give a "how to edit Wikipedia" workshop at my university (who pay me) will I then have to disclose who my employer is on my user page? Not everything involving money must immediately mean wrongdoing, and any policy change in this area would need to be careful not to invade users' privacy. Overall I'm very skeptical of any policy change here absent a compelling example of serious abuse that needs to be shut down. —Kusma (talk) 11:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Well, if it were me, I'd probably post to the article talk of the article about the client and let it archive as normal, and I'd certainly be disclosing the fact I did this on my own user for the period during which I was doing it. No, not everything involving money immediately means wrongdoing. But if you're hiding what you're doing, it probably involves at minimum something you'd be embarrassed to have others know. Look, would you decide NOT to give such a workshop if you had to disclose? I wouldn't. I'd just disclose: I'll be giving a workshop at my uni on how to edit Wikipedia. Or: I'm advising my employer, XYZ Company, how to edit Wikipedia. I will not be editing XYZ Company directly. Seems like an easy thing to do if you aren't trying to hide the fact. Valereee (talk) 15:12, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Embarrassment, or other other forms of privacy, are legitimate and the willingness to have privacy seems core to Wikipedia, where we do not require editors or even admins to reveal their true identities. If I'm being paid to give a class on How Edit Wikipedia at the Biennial Antifa Leather-Daddy BBQ or am answering questions for my superiors at Villainous Oil Co., then I am being asked to reveal things about myself that I would only have to if I was editing or admining in areas of my conflicts, which I may scrupulously avoid. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay, let's just forget the argument. I'm clearly not making it well. My point was that we don't have to protect every possible extreme example of innocent conversation or every possible reasonable example of embarrassing workshops. If you don't want to have to disclose you've done paid work for Villainous Oil, don't give them advice about Wikipedia. If you want to give them advice about Wikipedia, disclose they've paid you. Simple. Valereee (talk) 15:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

If they aren't going anything wrong what is the embarrassment risk? And if the worry is privacy then isn't the answer that the person shouldn't engage in wiki related commercial activity which they wish to remain confidential? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

He's pointing out that not every connection you don't want to disclose is necessarily problematic for Wikipedia, like the perfectly innocent workshop you gave to your B&D club, who comped your ticket in exchange for your time. Or the fact you work for the CIA. But in those cases, you also aren't advertising on Upworks. Valereee (talk) 16:28, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I think given the very real history of CIA COI editing on wikipedia an editor whose day job is at the CIA is probably in a bit of a pickle vis-a-vis whether to keep the mop. I think we've gotten pretty close to establishing two cases in which at least admins should disclose their employment on wiki: 1. when wiki is in their job description or duties (whether that means being a WiR, public relations manager, or wiki consultant). 2. when they seek to edit pages about which they have an otherwise non-disclosable COI (the same as applies to any other editor) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade, lemmesee...Special:Permalink/1001073031#Brigham Young University is probably what I was remembering? Valereee (talk) 19:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Pingin @Rachel Helps (BYU) as an interested party. Valereee (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

hi, do you have any questions for me? To me the core issue of that COIN discussion was applying to rules consistently to everyone. If we want to make all paid editors disclose their editing status on all of the talk pages of the pages they've worked on, that's fine, but requiring it of some editors and not others is not consistent. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:52, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

No questions, Rachel. Just wanted to make sure you knew someone was discussing. Valereee (talk) 21:59, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• No one on the Wikimedia side approves someone becoming a WIR nor sanctions the institution that creates the position. Nothing requires signoff from the WMF or any affiliate. There is a lot of good work, but we should work with a full understanding of those positions.

From Meta:Wikimedian in residence:

There are no special permissions or editorial appointments available in the Wikimedia platform. Organizations that appoint Wikimedians in Residence do so from the same position as anyone else on the Internet creating a Wikipedia user account. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and a Wikimedian in Residence enters the role equal to anyone else with no special recognition or consideration of their institutional affiliation.

Seddon ^talk 19:41, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Disclosure of paid advising

Above, Kusma makes a good point: With paid advice, the advisor may have no idea which articles and edits will in the future be influenced by their advice. To give a real example: At the end of last month I gave advice about editing Wikipedia, including regarding notability and sourcing, to someone who expressed an interested in improving coverage related to the tourism industry. I did this as part of a wide-ranging conversation while I was driving them and their belongings from London to Somerset. They (or rather their mother) paid me to do the driving, I was not paid specifically for anything regarding Wikipedia but they did know in advance (through mutual friends) that I was a Wikipedia admin. I do not know if they have an account here. I do not know whether they have edited since our conversation and if they have what pages they have edited. They have had "a couple of temporary jobs" in the tourism sector, that mean they have possibly have a COI with regards to an employer and/or one or more tourist attractions that may or may not be notable, but I don't know which ones or to what extent. What, if anything, about this should I be required to disclose? Where? For how long? Does this mean I now have a COI - if so what with? Thryduulf (talk) 13:06, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

You were being paid to drive. In the course of driving, you were making conversation to pass the time. I'm pretty gung-ho when it comes to disclosure requirements, but even I can't see how that's a problem.

My next door neighbor is a college professor. We often have converstations about Wikipedia. For example, if students use wikipedia to prepare homework essays, Is it cheating? Is it a copyvio? Is it just effective use of a good resource? Our most recent topic was if a department chair assigns the office admins the task of writing wikipedia articles for each faculty member, is that socking and/or UPE? I feel no compunction to disclose those conversations, even if he's invited me over to his house and fed me dinner.

I like aviation analogies, so I'll dredge one up now. The FAA has strict rules about private pilots offering their services for hire. I cannot, for example, advertise that I have a plane and I'll fly you where you want to go if you cover my expenses. It is perfectly legal, however, for the two of us to decide we both want to attend WCNA and I offer to fly us if you'll split the expenses of the flight with me. The key difference there is commonality of purpose. In my case, our purpose was to get to Toronto to attend the conference, and flying us there was just a convenient way to go. In your case, the commonality of purpose was moving this person's belongings from one place to another, and the conversation was incidental to that. And, yes, private pilots flout this rule on a regular basis, rarely get caught, and when they do get caught try to invent some commonality of purpose which rarely holds up and end up getting the certificate revoked. RoySmith (talk) 14:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Something else to note is that succeeding at an RfA grants one the title of "admin" and a host of ability to perform technical actions, where you are given tools to perform administrative functions on Wikipedia such as deleting, blocking/unblocking, reviewing deleted content, apply/remove page protection, etc.. If someone chooses to trust an individual enough to hire them for advising specifically because they are an admin, and NOT for performing any actual administrative functions, that is a personal judgment that they are making based simply on their having admin status, which would be no different than trusting them because they're wearing a shiny hat. Similarly, an observer seeing an admin advising on non-admin functions and then saying "admins shouldn't do that" is also a personal judgment, because one is specifically fixating on the status of "admin" and likely wouldn't think twice if it was a non-admin doing the same thing. In my opinion, this is conferring added weight to the role of administrator than actually is there, which doesn't seem WP:NOBIGDEAL-compatible.

I'm aware this is a fairly radical viewpoint given that trust and judgment is one of the reasons why administrators are selected, but I feel everybody has varying degrees on that, and therefore this is one of the reasons why a change in policy based on a subjective judgment isn't a good idea. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:54, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

If I get a speeding ticket and then I'm approached by somebody who tells me they're a policeman in the jurisdiction where the ticket was issued and for $100 they can assist me with the ticket, it would be stretching the limits of AGF past the breaking point not to assume they're soliciting a bribe.

I once got a speeding ticket which was serious enough that I contacted a lawyer. Said lawyer referred me to another lawyer who lived in the town where the ticket was issued, had gone to high school with the town's traffic judge, still played basketball with him, and who assured me he could get the fine cut down to a much more reasonable level in exchange for his legal fees. I'm not saying I refused his services, nor that what was going on was strictly illegal, but I wasn't so oblivious as not to understand this didn't quite live up to my utopian standards of how the criminal justice system is supposed to work. RoySmith (talk) 15:13, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Kusma: If you were required to disclose that "During the course of a paid gig driving from London to Somerset, I had a 2-hour conversation about editing Wikipedia", would you have refused the gig or refused to discuss Wikipedia? I wouldn't. I might roll my eyes that anyone could shoehorn that in here, but I'd comply and wouldn't feel the least bit reluctant to have everyone and their brother know. Valereee (talk) 15:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

If it required me to disclose that I live in the vicinity of London or Somerset and I'd scrupulously avoided doing that previously, then I certainly would have refused one or the other. —Cryptic 15:34, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

sigh. Fine. "During the course of a paid 3-hour driving gig, I had a 2-hour conversation about editing Wikipedia". I kind of feel like there's something going on here that I don't understand. Why are we arguing over whether anyone would ever be required to disclose a casual conversation, much less disclosing where they live, as part of this? Valereee (talk) 15:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

For clarification, I'm not suggesting this is what we should require. I am trying to get at the fact that even if we DID require disclosure of casual conversations or even workshops on editing in general while being paid for something else, while it would be silly, it wouldn't prevent a reasonable person from being able to have those conversations or give those workshops. Sorry for being unclear. Valereee (talk) 15:52, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

If that is the level of disclosure you require (no information about the content of the conversation), it is useless for tracking of whether any wrongdoing occurred but mostly harmless. If you require details like "explained to my neighbour who runs the only pet store in Somerton, Somerset that Wikipedia can't endorse HappyPet dog food and that they should self-revert their edit" this clears up what happened and makes it possible for others to check whether any NPOV has been introduced by your actions but gives away your real life address and the onwiki identity of your neighbour. —Kusma (talk) 15:42, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

But that isn't the level of disclosure any reasonable person would ever suggest we require. We currently require the name of the entity who paid you to edit wikipedia. Why would be any different to require the name of the entity who paid you to advise? Valereee (talk) 15:46, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

If that entity happens to be your everyday employer (and it may be impossible to refuse their request to explain the COI policy), then there is significant outing potential in such a requirement. —Kusma (talk) 16:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Unless your job description involved wikipedia how could it be legally impossible to refuse that request? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

It would likely be legally possible to refuse. But you might still feel compelled to act on such a request. The take-home line is "don't tell anyone you're a Wikipedia admin", I guess. —Kusma (talk) 16:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully we're electing admins with a standard moral compass, if they can't stand up for themselves why should they be admins? Wouldn't such hypothetically weak and unethical admins introduce a systemic liability? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:45, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

What you call a weak moral compass may to other people simply be pragmatism and a desire not to commit insubordination. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 20:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Depends on the country, probably. Most US job descriptions have a final line that says something like "And other tasks as required."

But I don't think giving general advice should be considered problematic unless it would typically fall into the general job description. You're the brand assistant for Pampers? Definitely consider not telling your brand manager you edit WP, it's never going to end well. You're in finance and the topic of the bm's attempts to get "World's most popular diaper brand!" inserted comes up at lunch one day? Meh. Personally I'd tell them about edit requests and Teahouse. Valereee (talk) 17:24, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

But I don't think giving general advice should be considered problematic unless it would typically fall into the general job description. Now I think we're getting into the meat of the issue here, which is that if giving general advice is okay, then at what point do we start cutting it off and say "this is no longer allowed for admins"? Never mind disclosure, I'm talking about just a plain cut-and-dry border between being de-sysopped or not. Is it really the taking of money for said advice that is the cutoff point? I think defining that border is where a poll or proposal would be the most useful. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 20:25, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

When you solicit clients as "an admin" without onwiki disclosure that you're doing this, I think we've passed the point of being okay. Valereee (talk) 21:02, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The flip side of allowing paid advising but requiring disclosure is that you are then essentially asking admins who do this to advertise their services on their userpage. —Kusma (talk) 21:17, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I think unless someone has been hired to advise or edit about Wikipedia, we can AGF on explaining things in pretty much any situation, including to their full-time employer. Once they start advertising the service freelance on Upworks, that changes things. Valereee (talk) 16:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• If they haven't used this COI to make any edits or use any tools in relation to it on wiki, then no violation has happened. It's as simple as that. Anyone claiming otherwise is trying to control what people do off-wiki. The only exception I'd see to this is if someone was directly organizing efforts to vandalize, POV-push, harass, or otherwise have such edits happen on-wiki. I don't consider advising on how to edit Wikipedia properly falls under any of that. Silverseren^C 21:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

  Obviously, no one can control what someone does off-wiki, but we can certainly take notice of that on-wiki. With paid editing, we already do. I can't stop you from taking money from anyone who wants to give it to you, but we can say that if we find out some of that money is in exchange for editing Wikipedia, you will be required to make the proper disclosures and comply with the COI requirements, and if you don't do those things you won't be editing at all. The same is true for off-wiki canvassing or the like. I can't stop someone from posting to Reddit or anywhere else about a particular AfD, but I can certainly ignore the crapflood of purely canvassed comments when I close the discussion. So, while we can't ultimately control what's done off-wiki, that doesn't mean we have to stick our heads in the sand and pretend it didn't happen. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:35, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  Re:advising on how to edit Wikipedia properly. I don't think anyone is objecting to that. I think what people object to is the very blurry line between that and something less innocuous, and if there isn't disclosure, we're less likely to notice the line has been crossed. There are actually many COI and paid editors who are ethical and committed to editing within policy. I've worked with some of them. But if they don't disclose, their edits don't get the scrutiny such edits need. Valereee (talk) 23:06, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm one of those who feel that more concern is being expressed than is justified, but I've been refraining from commenting too much in this section because I want to see what, if any, consensus can be reached, among those who feel the opposite, for a change in wording somewhere. I think it would be best to make concrete suggestions about wording changes -- straw men for an RfC, if you like. It's not a bad idea to try to reach common ground on the ethics, but I think that's gone as far as it can, and it's time for specific suggestions. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:24, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  +1. Let's focus on a suggestion, and my apologies for focussing too much on intangibles. Valereee (talk) 11:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  I suggest first agreeing a goal then working on wording to achieve that goal. Thryduulf (talk) 11:18, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  I only partly agree -- I think working on wording can often clarify where people's goals differ, and it is sometimes best done as an iterative process. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:25, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  I think we probably do need to address Thryduulf's main point, which is that if we don't agree on a goal, we can't come up with suggestions. @Thryduulf, my own goal would be some version of: "To ensure paid editing, which includes paid formal advising, receives the scrutiny it needs to protect the encyclopedia." Not sure "paid formal" is the right way to put it; what I'm trying to differentiate is between informal advising while in a "paid" position, such as answering your boss's questions on why an employee can't just go in and correct "their page", explaining policy in a convo while being paid to do something else, or giving a general editing workshop at your university or museum. Valereee (talk) 11:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  It seems to me that the original case that kicked this off was something like "soliciting of payment for advising on how to properly edit Wikipedia, using adminship as a selling point", and then opinions have varied from this in several directions: some specifically caring about the "using adminship as a selling point" part, some specifically caring about the soliciting part, some ignoring "properly" (lumping people who advise on how to get around the rules in with those who advise on how to follow them), some considering strict "payment for advising" versus "advising an employer outside of official job duties" versus "advising in watercooler chat", some considering payment in cash only versus payment in other considerations, various combinations of the previous, and even some considering "paid advising" to be identical to "paid editing via meatpuppet" and some considering payment for anything remotely involving Wikipedia (even if no editing or advising is involved) to be incompatible with adminship (or even with editing at all). Anomie⚔ 12:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  Anomie identifies the exact same problem I'm seeing. Here in this thread, there simply is too wide a dispersion of opinions for us to come to any sort of useful conclusion about how to proceed. As Thryduulf suggested, what needs to be done is we need to agree on baseline principles - what exactly are we trying to accomplish here? - that all of us can coalesce around. That may require a centralized proposal preceded by a trip to WP:VPI to hash out specifics, keeping the ethics discussion relatively separated and instead focusing on taking Wikipedia's pulse.

  Of course, this carries the inherent risk that we may not come to any sort of agreement at all. At that point, I then believe the question should turn to what our existing WP:PCD policy is saying and whether it still matches consensus on Wikipedia. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:28, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  Concur. I guess the question then becomes, is following all the processes you mention because of a single ad that, I understand, has since been withdrawn, worth all the time, fraught words, and frayed emotions that may follow, quite possibly for nothing. Wehwalt (talk) 14:40, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think it's for nothing, FWIW. I think this is something worth discussing and worth coming to a conclusion on. Valereee (talk) 18:53, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I think a fair balance would be to say that the actions a third party takes should not be taken in isolation, and that the advice given is the most important aspect. Seddon ^talk 19:17, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

RfC: Required disclosure for admin paid advising

Add a sentence to Wikipedia:Paid-contribution_disclosure#Administrators which reads Any administrator soliciting clients for paid Wikipedia-related consulting or advising services not covered by other paid-contribution rules must disclose all clients on their userpage. This expectation will only apply to administrators after the passage of the RfC. 16:55, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Support (Required disclosure for admin paid advising)

1. This does not prohibit any admin advising. It also only requires disclosure in a narrow cirumstance. For instance there have been a number of scenarios where an admin might end up advising their employer. Such discussions would not require disclosure under this change. Instead it is a relatively narrow sliver if an admin puts up a website to find clients or goes onto upwork, or the like. I think this minimal form of transparency is appropriate in such cases and based on the discussion above I believe there is a consensus which agrees with me. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:55, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
2. Support such disclosure seems more beneficial then harmful. If there is indeed any chilling effect on commercial beneficial activities (e.g., a user solicits useful advice for pay that improves the encyclopedia), it will be more than offset by the benefit of a clear paper trail/follow the money trail for accountability and transparency. While I think the current advising isn't a big deal, I do think this would ease the path to acceptance for such activity, and consistent with other disclosures of COI and paid editing. Advising isn't the same sort of COI as paid editing, but it would be good to disclose and require disclosing. Andre🚐 17:01, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
3. Support but I consider the “soliciting” part to be the most objectionable part. I can imagine a few legitimate client-initiated scenarios where an editor who happens to be an admin is offered compensation for their advice, but to actively seek to make money from their adminship feels incompatible with the spirit of public benefit that I believe admins should be role-modelling. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 18:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
4. I think we need to come to some conclusion on what the community thinks is the best way to approach this. I don't think it assumes bad faith any more than any COI policy assumes bad faith. IMO there's a benefit to the encyclopedia of encouraging scrutiny. Valereee (talk) 18:56, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
5. I wouldn't support a candidate in an RfA, if they said they reserve a right to solicit or be approached by clients on upwork/fiverr, for monetary compensation in exchange for services (even if they are above board activities like explaining wikipedia policies, or explaining how to edit articles/ find legitimate sourcing etc), if such an advisory service is capable of being provided freely by any other editor as well, on the teahouse or helpdesk. A community-vetted admin, advertising on third-party sites, is a whole different look than a non-admin doing it. Reflects poorly on wikipedia and lowers trust. To me the crux of the matter is, are they disclosing the fact that they are wikipedia admins on fiverr/upwork? I don't think that should be allowed because it can be construed as benefiting from a position of authority, even if all they are doing off-wiki is within the present rules. Asking for admins to observe a higher standard of conduct, isn't an unreasonable demand from current and future admins. This RfC is asking for a disclosure requirement and I agree that personally identifiable information of individuals shouldn't be necessary, but I think information on any organisation which seeks such service should be disclosed. — hako9 (talk) 00:41, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose (Required disclosure for admin paid advising)

1. Oppose - The primary focus of Wikipedia should be on the integrity and neutrality of its content. Unless there's a direct payment influencing article edits, the need for such disclosure doesn't meaningfully serve the community's interests, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy after all. We also already have robust policies in place addressing conflicts of interest and paid contributions. If an administrator does find themselves editing an article they were paid to advise on, these existing policies suffice.
   Introducing another layer of regulation can also have unintended consequences. Mandating the disclosure of all clients on an administrator's user page may inadvertently violate privacy norms for both the administrator and their clients. We must consider the potential risks of such disclosures against their intended benefits. There is also the benefit that more advise to non-Wiki people is a good thing and only serves to improve the project. While I do not see an improvement or benefit from the addition proposed. PackMecEng (talk) 17:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
2. For four reasons:
   • First and most importantly, this is built on a fundamental assumption of bad faith. Having the most experienced and most trusted Wikipedia users provide advice on how to follow our policies and guidelines is something we should all want. The discussion above is rife with assumptions and speculation that instead, it will turn into advice on how to circumvent our guidelines or even segue into paid editing or editing with a conflict of interest. In order to become an admin, you're required to demonstrate an extraordinary level of commitment to this project and earn an extraordinary amount of trust from the community. These are not users playing some long con, waiting to get the admin bit and exhibiting great judgment just to turn around and violate fundamental principles.
   • We should not be trying to create rules for what someone can and cannot do with their lives when it does not involve any (a) on-wiki activity at all, or (b) access to privileged information obtained through on-wiki rights. We likewise don't make it standard for all users or admins to have to reveal their off-wiki employers on a "just in case they might edit with a COI in the future" basis. cf. nothing to hide argument.
   • Too much gray area. What does it mean to "solicit"? If an oil company writes to me and offers me a lucrative consulting gig, that wouldn't be covered but isn't it the same? What about being paid to speak at an event? What if I let someone buy me lunch to ask my advice about something? Does it hinge if I'm the one who says "you pay for lunch"?
   • The worst case scenarios are already covered by WP:TOOLMISUSE. It's already true that an admin cannot use their tools as part of any paid editing/advising gig. That could be clarified at WP:ADMIN, I suppose, but the use of the tools and other on-wiki activity is where our prerogative should end. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
3. Oppose: This addresses a problem that has not yet been detected as existing (where such advertised paid advising leads to inappropriate adminning), creates another discouragement to being an admin, and any real problem is already addressed by existing COI guidelines. The admin should definitely avoid editing/doing admin functions where it's a strong COI, such as a current paid client, but should only have to reveal if they work on Wikipedia is a matter where they have a weak COI (i.e., "I advised Villainous Oil Co five years ago on matters unrelated to The Horrible Orphanage Explosion Scandal and have had no ongoing work with since".) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
4. Oppose I also believe that this is a solution in search of a problem, and that the proposal assumes the worst of the people the community has found worthy of trust. We don't need it.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
5. Oppose due to three points:
   • I wholeheartedly do not think policy changes in this space should solely target admins. If there is a problem its broader. Per Wehwalt: the proposal assumes the worst of the people the community has found worthy of trust.; and Rhododendrites The worst case scenarios are already covered by WP:TOOLMISUSE..
   • The change also is ambigious per Rhododendrites What does it mean to "solicit"?.
   • It doesn't close the various policy gaps where off-wiki activities by one individual lead to disruptive or disceptive on-wiki actions. Despite what people claim above, WP:MEAT and WP:PROXYING do not prevent this. The closest you might get a throwaway remark in Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry#Sharing_an_IP_address which states Closely connected users may be considered a single user for Wikipedia's purposes if they edit with the same objectives.. That is the beginning of a policy, and there would be value in beefing this up to something more substantial that applied to all users.

   I agree with the spirit of Rhododendrites point that We should not be trying to create rules for what someone can and cannot do with their lives when it does not involve any (a) on-wiki activity at all but not the specificity of the context. Which is that I do think there should be accountability for individuals where off-wiki activity results in on-wiki disruption, even if they were not the one pushing the buttons. Enforcement of this probably sits with Arbcom, but unless Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry#Sharing_an_IP_address is considered good enough; I'd like a little more detail rather than relying on overly broad interpretations. Seddon ^talk 20:04, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

6. Oppose, too narrow. This should apply to anyone engaged in this type of work, not just admins. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:16, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
7. Oppose as a solution in search of a problem. I am the administrator whose off-Wikipedia training and consulting work led to this discussion. Let me affirm at the outset that every bit of my off-Wikipedia activities have been in full compliance with the letter and the spirit of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and that if a policy change is made now, I will comply without hesitation going forward. On November 3, 2022, at 06:38 UTC, I posted the following disclosure on the Administrator's Noticeboard: I want to disclose that I may possibly engage in some paid off-Wikipedia consulting and training work, related to Wikipedia article creation. I will not edit Wikipedia directly for any such client but may advise potential clients about policies, guidelines and best practices. Feel free to ask me for clarification. This is the type of advice that I already provide at the Teahouse and the Help Desk. There were no objections. Had there been, I would have taken any such feedback into account. Shortly thereafter, I posted the following on my User page: I do some training and consulting about editing off-Wikipedia, but do not engage in any paid editing on Wikipedia. I thought it would have been useful if Barkeep49 had reported these relevant facts when this discussion began but that editor declined to do so despite my asking by email twice. So, for 12 days, the skimpiest of facts about my actual activities have been followed by wild speculation by various editors about get-rich-quick administrators collaborating with evil corporations scheming to bypass our content policies. Nothing could be further from the truth. To date, I have earned US $1290.00 total over nearly 11 months with possibly another $135.00 to come if a current client is not scared away by this discussion. This is a tiny percentage of my current income. I have been approached by 37 potential clients and only 8 of them hired me. This is because I am always crystal clear with potential clients that I do not edit Wikipedia for paying clients and that I provide ethical consulting and training services only. Through my interaction with the 29 potential clients that did not hire me, I have learned a lot about the undeclared paid editing marketplace which I believe makes me a more effective administrator. Despite the disbelief of some editors who have commented previously, I have actually been paid by a few clients to tell them in great detail that their topic is not notable and precisely why. Some editors have expressed the opinion that my actions express disrespect for the Teahouse and the Help Desk. The fact is that I have been among the most active contributors at those places for quite a few years, and continue helping there regularly. I also want to report that I have been approached by email by two ArbCom members about this matter, and that I replied quickly, fully and frankly. It seems that a few people are actually prepared to pay for personalized, policy compliant, in-depth help from knowledgeable people, and that is the type of service that I have tried to offer. I am opposing this specific policy language because I believe that anyone hiring a consultant or trainer has an implicit expectation of privacy, and that none of my clients has agreed to allow me disclose their personally identifying information, and that disclosing names of off-Wikipedia clients here on Wikipedia is incompatible with the type of ethical service that I had hoped to offer. So, if there is consensus among the community that this type of disclosure is required, then I will simply stop offering the services in question. Cullen328 (talk) 21:17, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
8. Oppose. First, it is not clear that a problem exists that needs solving. Second, even if paid advice is problematic, there is no reason to assume that admins need to be observed more closely than non-admins. Third, why should it matter whether the admin is "soliciting for clients"? Fourth, if we assume all this bad faith of evil admins, should we really demand that they advertise their nefarious business on their user page? —Kusma (talk) 21:38, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

   Maybe someone can make up a "Have Mop, Will Travel" poster, Old-West style? Wehwalt (talk) 22:46, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (Required disclosure for admin paid advising)

• @Barnards.tar.gz: actively seek to make money from their adminship - Whether or not the client has any idea they're an admin isn't addressed here. This applies to anyone taking money for advice, but only if they happen to be an admin (regardless of whether the client knows). FWIW. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:48, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• Why just admins? I like the idea, but really this should apply to anyone soliciting such "advising" related work. Note that this is separate from incidental advising, where someone just happens to ask them about Wikipedia, and also from giving general advice such as speaking to a general audience or assisting at an edit-a-thon; this would apply to people actively soliciting or accepting clients to regularly pay them for such "advising" activities. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:14, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• I'm a little confused by "This expectation will only apply to administrators after the passage of the RfC". Does this mean that a) this expectation applies to only administrators who pass RfA after the RfC is over (a grandfather clause, since pre-RfC administrators aren't affected) or b) it was meant as a reiteration that only administrators are covered by the RfC, not non-administrators or c) the plain reading of the sentence, that the requirement comes into effect after the RfC is passed? If it's option B, then it's very clear that the proposed policy only applies to administrators from the wording of the green text and where it'd be placed. If it's option C, then surely that is the case with all RfCs? No RfC should come into effect before it passes ... Maybe I've completely missed the point here. Sdrqaz (talk) 22:33, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Sdrqaz I think the intent is that the policy does not apply retrospectively, i.e. an administrator who solicited paid advising who did not disclose clients they advised at the time would not in breach of this policy. It is unclear if admins who solicit before and after this policy is enacted (if it is) would need to disclose clients they advised before it comes into effect but not afterwards, but I would oppose a requirement to do so. Thryduulf (talk) 22:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, I see: so an option D. Thank you, Thryduulf. Perhaps that sentence should be altered to something like "this expectation will only apply to work undertaken after the passage of the RfC" or something similarly clearer. Sdrqaz (talk) 23:17, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• I think I could find myself agreeing with something like this if the text were altered to read ...must disclose all clients on their userpage upon request of the Arbitration Committee. Honestly, if there's ever a situation where an admin is doing advising wickedly, the next step is always going to be Arbcom. Publicly listing clients doesn't feel like it should be necessary. We're not required to disclose COIs with subjects we perform no on-wiki edits or actions regarding. I'm not sure what audience this policy change is supposed to capture. Admins honest enough to list their clients, but unethical enough to make COI actions about them?
  There's been zero indication that this practice has led to any bad edits or bad actions. If people think that a side hustle leveraging Wikipedia expertise is against the moral underpinnings of adminship, then they should have an RfC about banning the practice. Cullen has been very forthright about what he does (thank you for self-outing, by the way, so we can stop tiptoeing around it). Personally, I trust him, as an admin who is very engaged and policy literate. If Arbcom believe otherwise, I could support a policy change giving them the power to demand private disclosure of client identities, but I don't think a public listing is the right step to take. Folly Mox (talk) 01:01, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Clear consensus by use ignoring discussions

Is it fair to assume that consensus by use occurs, where no matter how many discussions take place, users who are unaware/not party to the discussions or unaware/not party of Wikiproject style guides and discussions carry on doing the actions which are being discussed a certain way no matter what occurs in those discussions or internally within a wikiproject.

TL;DR is it consensus by use where users (a large number) simply pay no attention to or have no knowledge of discussions on a specific subject? PicturePerfect666 (talk) 16:45, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your question. Sometimes, a local consensus can emerge from a talk page which is not necessarily indicative of a broad, community-wide consensus. Is that the point you're making? Pecopteris (talk) 17:56, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

It shouldn't, per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, but it sometimes does. Addressing that behavioral issue is difficult. BilledMammal (talk) 17:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I mean when a Wikiproject decides something, but users such as casual and new users, simply pay no attention either through ignorance or preference. I mean i feel in some cases Wikiprojects can make all the consensus they want but trying to get others to pay attention to those discussions can be impossible.

I mean a prime example is the accessibility rules, I know the rules sty not to have headers embedded tables, to aid screen readers, but that is roundly ignored by users, who may not even know the rule exists. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 20:35, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

There is also this discussion where a wikiproject has withdrawn support for doing something one-way nad is endorsing doing something another way, but editors outside of the wikiproject are roundly ignoring hat the wikiproject is saying by continuing to do things the way the wikiproject no longer wants things done. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

That's a slightly different situation; per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS editors outside the WikiProject have no obligation to follow the WikiProject's consensus; if the WikiProject wants the broader community to follow it then it needs to get consensus in the broader community. BilledMammal (talk) 20:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I am fairly new here and trying to get to know how things work.

Can the members of the wikiproject try and say 'do it our way because we have discussed it'? PicturePerfect666 (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

No. I often revert changes to number articles where a drive-by vandal thinks it's amusing to replace the topic by 42, 69 or 420. Despite the frequency of such updates, I don't see an unwritten consensus to change all numbers in Wikipedia to 42.

Where written guidance varies from common good practice, we should update it. This does happen. For example, those of us who work on disambiguation follow detailed and carefully crafted guidelines. We recently discovered a clause in an unrelated policy page contradicting our practices. The policy was duly amended to reflect reality by removing the clause. Certes (talk) 09:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Not sure I get your first paragraph

How is something, as shown in the football topic be resolved? (Redacted) PicturePerfect666 (talk) 15:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

My slightly ridiculous first paragraph was to illustrate that, just because people do something, doesn't mean we should mandate or even allow it (though we may mandate or allow it for other reasons). The football issue clearly needs a discussion about which format is better, or indeed if both formats are acceptable. I don't know the topic well enough to say anything helpful on that matter. Certes (talk) 14:46, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

No. Wikipedia gets used for referencing in articlea all the time, that doesn't mean it should be used or that it's reliable for sourcing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 16:21, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I do not understand your comment above please expand. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 18:12, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

PicturePerfect666, please read WP:CIRCULAR. Cullen328 (talk) 18:29, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok but how does that apply here? PicturePerfect666 (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

WP:CIRCULAR explains why Wikipedia shouldn't cite Wikipedia as a reliable source. Despite that policy, editors do cite Wikipedia, making it an example of something that is done but prohibited. In my opinion, we shouldn't ignore that policy simply because some others ignore it. See also WP:OTHERSTUFF. Certes (talk) 19:47, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

CIRCULAR doesn't seem to be relevant to the OP's question, though. The question is about "discussions" (which are not policies) and "Wikiproject style guides" (which are also not policies). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

No. Consensus should be (and regularly is) ignored by the closers of discussions, where the majority of opinions are on one side of the argument but do not represent policy or provide strong enough arguments. The points made in WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is a typical example of this. Black Kite (talk) 18:21, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• Policy is supposed to be descriptive (based on “what is actually done”) as opposed to proscriptive (based on “what we would like done”). However, there are rare occasions where we don’t achieve this. When that occurs, one could argue that policy does not follow community consensus.

The solution is to discuss the issue and suggest changes to the policy that better reflect “what is done” (ie community consensus) - with good examples of how and why the community consensus isn’t properly reflected by the current policy. Blueboar (talk) 16:49, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

It's weird that anyone would jump to LOCALCONSENSUS to say that "Wikiproject style guides and discussions" should be followed. I know that Wikipedia:Nobody reads the directions, but seriously: two of the three sentences in LOCALCON say that WikiProjects don't get to decide these things. LOCALCON (which I wrote) exists because a WikiProject tried to ban infoboxes from "their" articles. Nobody has to follow the advice put forward by a WikiProject, just like nobody has to follow the advice put forward by any other individual or self-selected group of editors.

What editors actually do in individual articles is Wikipedia:Consensus#Through editing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:58, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Use of Subpages for Temporary Storage

There are a few MFDs in progress that raise an issue about the use of subpages. The originator has what appears to be data on future hurricanes, that is either intended for use as test data, or is alternate history. They have been nominated for deletion. The originator, User:Sria-72, says:

This was never intended to be an article in any way, and it is just a page for me to paste stuff for me to keep track off.

So is the use of subpages for temporary storage permitted, or is this web hosting? Also, if this is test data, where and how can test data be kept without violating Wikipedia guidelines?

Robert McClenon (talk) 04:10, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

If the pages are in the user's subpage, and the purpose is to assist with productive work on the encyclopaedia in any way (including test data) then they're always going to be acceptable. If this is the purpose but the pages are elsewhere, then they should be moved to userspace (or WikiProject space if it's a collaborative thing). If the purpose is something else but they are an established editor then we allow a bit of leeway for stuff in userspace as long as it isn't excessive, a copyvio, attacking someone, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 08:37, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

We're talking about userspace subpages, so that's governed by WP:UPYES and WP:UPNOT (and I think falls under the latter). I think a more precise way to frame the issue is that it's about relevance to Wikipedia, not strictly "temporary storage". DFlhb (talk) 08:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

If someone is an active contributor, they're WP:HERE to build an encyclopedia. At that point, who cares what kind of experimentation they do in their userspace? That's what we want people to use userspace for -- experimenting, poking, organizing, demoing, playing with style/markup, engaging in goofy social stuff, etc. Nobody will ever come across it except for those looking for makework. Most of us who have been around a while have some manner of silliness buried on a userpage somewhere. What's the point in deleting it? Perhaps more importantly, what's the point in creating a formalized discussion to sap community time to determine whether or not to delete it? The only problem is when people use Wikipedia with no intention of actually contributing constructively. That happens more than you'd think with alternate history and hypothetical reality shows, and in those cases there's no reason to retain them (although it's possible a block + blank is simply more appropriate). In other words, if they're WP:HERE, find something better to do than policing silly stuff in their userspace; if they're WP:NOTHERE, blank, block, delete, or whatever. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:09, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• I collegially disagree with Rhododendrites in that I think some highly active contributors aren't here to build an encyclopaedia at all. There can be times when it's right to take a hard look at someone's userspace. But those times are exceptions, and MFDing a page in someone else's userspace is an extraordinarily intrusive thing to do that's rarely justified except when dealing with disruptive editors. In the cases we're considering here, I feel that the userspace police would be well advised to find something more productive to do.—S Marshall T/C 18:00, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
  • I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make, but if it helps to clarify, you can interpret the first part of my statement as simply "If someone is WP:HERE...". In the case that started this, the user has more than a hundred mainspace edits. That shows they're not just here for userspace nonsense. Granted, they have more userspace edits than mainspace edits, so there's an argument for it being a borderline case, but per WP:AGF we should be giving the benefit of the doubt in borderline cases, especially when the "harm" is so, so, so trivial. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:05, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

    I would add that "rarely justified except when dealing with disruptive editors" isn't really it, because the content itself can be disruptive aside from any direct activity/behavior of the user, and WP:NOT policy applies regardless of disruptive effects anyway. That said, I agree with "If ... the purpose is to assist with productive work on the encyclopaedia in any way (including test data) then they're always going to be acceptable", aside from my caveat above about content that is disruptive by its own nature. The reason we have a userspace in the first place is for "storing data" that is directly pertinent to our encyclopedic work.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:32, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• I agree that constructive use of one's user space should be encouraged. Keeping wikitext markup as writing aids in user space is a legitimate approach. Care should be taken that the wikitext is formatted in a way to clarify that it is not a Wikipedia article, with disclaimers as necessary. I'm experiencing déjà vu; maybe I've written this already in another discussion, but have forgotten where. isaacl (talk) 21:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• Generally speaking, as long as someone is substantially participating outside of userspace, and the userspace material is not in and of itself disruptive or inappropriate (BLP violations, copyvios, promotion, harassment/antagonism of other editors, etc.), I think people should be given very wide latitude as to what they do in their own userspace. The purposes of userspace could be brainstorming, fooling around with markup to see what happens, recording some things you might one day find useful, writing draft edits, or anything of that nature. Obviously, that, like anything, could be taken to an extreme where it would be disruptive, but that bar should be set very high. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• Leave them alone agreed with Rhododentrites and Seraphimblade. Egregious content should be reported, but generally we should leave editors alone if they’re WP:HERE. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 09:38, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• I more or less agree with the other opinions above that state we should be leaving userspace subpages alone. One really has to go out of their way to find them, particularly if they were not newly created or have been sitting around for a long time. I do not believe that's necessarily applicable to the specific discussions that Robert McClenon referenced in the original post, but it would be nice if we could rein in future userspace MfDs and limit only to those highly egregious cases which indicate the users are definitely and unmistakably WP:NOTHERE. Personally, I agree that people play very fast and loose with WP:UPNOT with an unspoken degree of latitude given to active contributors, most likely because those are "victimless crimes" unlike long-time content creators engaging in (and getting away with) rank incivility. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:16, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to change MOS:DASH to reflect consensus at Talk:SAG–AFTRA

Please see Requested move 20 July 2023, MOS talk page discussion and MOS:FAQ#Dashes for further background to this proposal.

I am proposing that the manual of style section MOS:DASH, specifically its sub-section MOS:ENBETWEEN, be updated to reflect the closure of the RM above and to provide further clarity for the guideline. The RM for SAG–AFTRA was closed 1½ months ago, with the consensus that an en-dash should not be used in the article's name, because the dash does not show a connection between the two entities of "SAG" and "AFTRA", as these are no longer current entities due to the merger between them.

However the MOS guideline is vague about whether merged entities should use hyphens or dashes, with the exemption for MOS:ENBETWEEN stating Generally, use a hyphen in compounded proper names of single entities. As the above RM showed consensus that single entities do include merged entities, where both previous entities are no longer in existance, this exemption should be changed to Generally, use a hyphen in compounded proper names of single entities, including mergers of two single entities to reflect the closure of the RM discussion.

In short, this would mean that merged organizations which use compounded names, such as SAG-AFTRA, should use hyphens (-) rather than dashes (–) within articles, leading to potentially more clarity and consistency in usage of hyphens/dashes in articles and names. Happily888 (talk) 09:51, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@Happily888 Tentatively support, as long as there is a follow up agreement not to further contest the naming convention with a requested move while an article is featured on main page. That was incredibly disruptive and not worth whatever consensus was concluded in prior examples. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Shushugah: This discussion is probably not the right venue for this, your proposal would probably be better discussed (if you wished to start one) at WT:RM, the talk page for WP:RMEC. This would also have implications for the criterias WP:ITNBLURB, WP:DYKTAG and WP:POTD/G. Happily888 (talk) 07:17, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Shushugah I'd support a prohibition on anybody nominating anything for RM for any reason while it is featured on or linked from the main page (if there isn't one already, cf Wikipedia:Speedy keep criterion 6). Thryduulf (talk) 09:33, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Just noting that there isn't one yet already, with WP:CSK applying to XfD deletion nominations only. Happily888 (talk) 10:59, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. That actually needs to go to WP:MR, because the close was a super-vote, the result conflicts directly with long-standing guidelines, and it conflicts with literally hundreds of previous RM decisions. One outlying case, mired in the common-style fallacy does not magically undo all prior, consistent consensus about punctuation.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to restrict RM discussions while plastered on Main per incident of Talk:SAG–AFTRA

This would copy Wikipedia:Speedy keep criterion 6) inside WP:RMNOT for restricting move discussion for articles that are listed/rendered on WP:ITN, WP:DYK, FA, GA, FL and other main page mentions. If there's a common sense move to make, someone can boldly do it. But once there is a disputed discussion, like there was at SAG-AFTRA, it should pause or at least not have banner templates displayed. The harm of scaring away our readers and disrupting community energy in an high stakes situation is not worth the purported benefit of a move. Our readers are too important for us, to scare them away with niche internal discussions. Feel free to boldly edit this proposal if need be. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 13:28, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

How is it scaring away our readers? —Bagumba (talk) 15:05, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

If it's your first time visiting a talk page and you find a 4,000 word discussion about - vs –, the difference if which is not obvious on face of it, that you need to clarify what they are by name? Why would anyone be bold enough to make bigger edits if the visually tiniest edits provoke such a large discussion from wikilawyers? ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 15:20, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

While I do believe that routine maintenance templates in articles themselves are not generally useful to readers, I think that if someone visits a talk page, they're now a potential editor as well as a reader, which makes it even more important to be transparent about our processes. Has there been a demonstrated pattern of editors scared away by these things? I'm fully in support of creating more soft landings for future editors, but I don't think this is the right approach. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I am not referring to talk page discussions, but move discussion notices that are featured on the Article space, e.g User:RMCD bot/subject notice. Others here disagree with me and think it's a good thing if article readers discover the internal processes and potentially get involved and the example I mentioned isn’t the norm, which is prolly true ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 22:34, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Got it; thanks for clarifying! Then yes, for me this falls more into my general view that many of these banners aren't useful for most of our readers in the first place, whether they're on front page articles or not. My personal perspective is that we should restrict such banners to those which would help readers to understand if there are core content issues, like if the article covers a rapidly-changing event or suffers from a lack of citations. So I'm less interested in preventing RM discussions and more interesting in being more conscious of what we display to readers in general. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 22:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

On the contrary, alerting readers to the fact Wikipedia is a community-written encyclopedia with transparent discussion processes they can view and even take part in is a benefit, not a drawback. – Teratix ₵ 15:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I disagree unreservedly. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 16:29, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Hard cases make bad law. Obviously a debate about dashes versus hyphens is better not exposed to the world. But we might want to allow people to see a debate whether it should be "2023 Bay Area earthquake" or "2023 San Francisco earthquake" or "2023 Northern California earthquake", and we shouldn't hold that discussion on WP:ERRORS, but follow normal process, even if the earthquake needs to be linked from ITN. —Kusma (talk) 16:40, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

If it's a bold move, it's a bold move, but once it's a discussion, what's the harm in waiting till it's off mainpage? It clearly doesn't expedite the process, only adds more attention/traffic and not because people are specifically interested in move discussions. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 17:12, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Waiting until a major news item is out of the news to even start discussing how it should be titled doesn't strike me as a sensible policy. —Kusma (talk) 17:30, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. There is nothing magically special about front-page content, and moving a page will leave behind a redirect, so there is no possibility of breaking anything.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:28, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Eh, if a similar situation occurs where the RM banner seems unusually detrimental to the typical reader's experience, someone could boldly add {{If IP|| and }} around the RM banner (and inside the noinclude tags) so that it will not show for people who are not logged in. SilverLocust 💬 06:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussions should absolutely not be hidden from ip users - either show them to everybody or nobody. Additionally there is a poor correlation between "people who are not logged in" and "people who will be put off by internal disputes" - some (maybe many) experienced editors only log in when required, some (maybe many) who are logged in are not experienced editors. Thryduulf (talk) 09:40, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The typical reader is not logged in. The typical person who is logged in also edits. I don't actually think an RM would be particularly detrimental to the typical reader's experience, but if it is, then the solution is not to close the discussion. SilverLocust 💬 22:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, concern for transparency with internal discussions is fundamentally at odds with the idea that those discussions should not take place until fewer people are looking. In any event, the actual chance that any particular unregistered user will join the discussion is very small. The SAG-AFTRA RM had one IP comment and the Elizabeth II had none. SilverLocust 💬 23:31, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support. If the title is so wrong that it needs discussing now, but not so wrong that it isn't uncontroversial, then take it to WP:ERRORS. In every other case, wait until it's off the main page in a couple of days. This is exactly the reason CSK point 6 exists - the main page is our most reader-facing environment where we showcase good work not internal disputes. Thryduulf (talk) 09:36, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm fine with waiting for DYK or TFA items that are off the page within a day. For ITN, you have no idea how long an item will be in the news, and holding the move discussion for Charles III in a non-archived place like WP:ERRORS instead of the talk page would have been Just Wrong (and of course, would have overwhelmed ERRORS). —Kusma (talk) 10:01, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  I wasn't suggesting holding the move discussion at WP:ERRORS (that would be wrong in multiple ways) but reporting the matter to WP:ERRORS to remove the item from the main page so that the truly urgent issue can be dealt with. Whether the article about the king of the UK should be at Charles III or Charles III of the United Kingdom is exactly the sort of issue that can wait until it is off the main page. Thryduulf (talk) 10:12, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  People tend to disagree on what is Truly Urgent. I think linking an article with a move discussion from the Main Page is preferable to having a move war over such articles. As an aside, the question whether a truly popular article is linked from the Main Page should be secondary here; what about other articles with 100k+ daily views like Jawan (film)? —Kusma (talk) 13:03, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose: I agree with Teratix. We should be showing our processes, not hiding banners like something shameful. It feels like stuffing the Bad Things into the downstairs closet because the houseguests are coming. Let's make our processes less opaque to readers, not the other way around. Edward-Woodrow • talk 20:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

"the [p|P]rophet Muhammad"

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles#NPOV usage of "the prophet Muhammad" or "the prophet" – involves MOS:HONORIFIC, MOS:DOCTCAPS, WP:NPOV, WP:CHERRYPICKING, etc.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:33, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Redirects involving BLP privacy issues

Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask, but are any editors aware if there’s a policy on how to deal with redirects that are possible WP:BLPPRIVACY issues in and of themselves? For example, a redirect from a non-notable name/leaked name of a subject to that subject’s article.

Normally, redirects are deleted by consensus at RfD (excluding speedy deletions). However, I just randomly came across an (archived) situation where a leaked name was a redirect and was taken to RfD — arguably, publicising the leaked name on-wiki more than would have otherwise been the case. (It could also be argued that even mentioning the name of the redirect on-wiki in such a case may be an - albeit good faith and inadvertent - breach of BLPPRIVACY, which applies anywhere on Wikipedia.)

By my reading of BLPPRIVACY, the best course of action when discovering such a redirect would be to contact Oversight to allow them to assess the situation, and to take action to suppress it if/when needed (If you see personal information ... in a BLP or anywhere on Wikipedia, ... contact the oversight team). However, I worry that written information/guidelines/policy on how WP:BLPPRIVACY interacts with redirects may be lacking, and potentially leading to situations such as the one I stumbled upon (and if there’s one such case, I’d suggest that there may well be more).

(Of course, it’s more than possible that there is such a policy already, and I’ve just missed it. Sorry if that’s the case.)

All the best, ^user:A smart kitten_meow 21:04, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

If you see something that you think is or might be oversightable then always contact the Oversight team, explaining why you think that if it isn't obvious to someone who doesn't know the context. It is significantly preferable to contact us about something that doesn't need suppressing than to not contact us about something that does. If it does not require suppression or revision deletion we will let you know, and you can then proceed with normal processes as appropriate.

Speedy deletion criteria G3 or G10 will sometimes apply. In terms of redirects specifically though there is no specific policy that I am aware of. However the very long-standing precedent at RfD is that redirects to pages that don't mention the redirect term are rarely useful and are usually deleted when nominated. A name that has no apparent connection to a biography, such as a name that bears no apparent relation to any names mentioned in the article, will very nearly always be deleted (Wikipedia:RFD#DELETE points 2, 3, 5 and/or 8 will often apply). Thryduulf (talk) 23:02, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Contact an oversighter and we can suppres-delete it if it is warranted. Oversight policy is broad enough to deal with stuff like this. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:06, 25 September 2023 (UTC)