Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents: Difference between revisions
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::Agreed. There was some well-intended bits in there but the [[tin-foil hat]]s required made much of it, ironically, static which they seemed to object to. [[User:Benjiboi|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:95% cursive;color:#CC00CC">Benji</u>]][[User_talk:Benjiboi|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:98% cursive;color:#ff6699">boi</u>]] 07:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC) |
::Agreed. There was some well-intended bits in there but the [[tin-foil hat]]s required made much of it, ironically, static which they seemed to object to. [[User:Benjiboi|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:95% cursive;color:#CC00CC">Benji</u>]][[User_talk:Benjiboi|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:98% cursive;color:#ff6699">boi</u>]] 07:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Yeah, I found him to be kinda annoying on many occasions (unjustified AfDs and so on) and incomprehensible most of the time. His net contribution to the encyclopedia is probably negative, given the amount of time it takes to deal with him. [[User:Sarsaparilla|Sarsaparilla]] ([[User talk:Sarsaparilla|talk]]) 23:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC) |
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== Is it just me... == |
== Is it just me... == |
Revision as of 23:59, 10 February 2008
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
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Just a heads up that I've filed an RFCU about Jeeny (talk · contribs) and GeeAlice (talk · contribs). It does not look like previous disruptive conduct is about to reform any time soon. — Zerida 00:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see a notice on GeeAlice's talk page about this or the RFCU. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Notified GeeAlice, though I suspect she knew given that she deleted these quotes from her user page [1] (which User:Jeeny also used to have on hers) after I filed the 3RR report. — Zerida 01:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I deleted the quotes because of rude behavor by Zerida, and others. Zerida kept reverting a tag I placed on an image to be renamed, Egyptians.jpg to Egyptians collage.jpg. I posted to his talk page asking why, and he responded rudely. I was trying to explain the reason for this change, now this. ←Gee♥Alice 01:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Just a note that I have indef blocked GeeAlice (talk · contribs) per the outcome of the checkuser. A no brainer since she logged out and started editwarring on the RFCU. -- lucasbfr talk 10:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Given that User talk:Jeeny was deleted because Jeeny claimed to want to execute the right to vanish, but plainly has not done so, should it be undeleted? -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 16:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lot of that going around lately, huh. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 19:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's only a matter of time before she creates her next sockpuppet--I've seen it before. It doesn't stop their pathological obsession or stalking either. However, I don't think it was a good idea to delete the talk page; with such abusive users, all the evidence goes along with it. — Zerida 20:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- The talk page should definitely be undeleted. In fact, I seem to recall posting to this very board a while ago that Jeeny was going to be a problem user.....⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, problem users that use the right to disappear as a fast exit strategy should lose that right if they reappear. David D. (Talk) 22:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I've restored it. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 14:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, problem users that use the right to disappear as a fast exit strategy should lose that right if they reappear. David D. (Talk) 22:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- The talk page should definitely be undeleted. In fact, I seem to recall posting to this very board a while ago that Jeeny was going to be a problem user.....⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's only a matter of time before she creates her next sockpuppet--I've seen it before. It doesn't stop their pathological obsession or stalking either. However, I don't think it was a good idea to delete the talk page; with such abusive users, all the evidence goes along with it. — Zerida 20:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lot of that going around lately, huh. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 19:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- As the bowl of petunias said, "oh no, not again". I confidently expect this to carry on through numerous further iterations. Guy (Help!) 16:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- An inevitable outcome I am sad to say as long as there are editors/admins who feel the urge to provide support and protection to troubled and troublesome users. While it is quite clear to at least some of us that someone this disturbed not only should be nowhere near Wikipedia, but should have been blocked long ago, others apparently disagree! I have this vague memory of the project being about "building an encyclopedia", not running a social service clinic, or a forum where we "hang", keep each other company, and let people run roughshod over every policy and guideline to maintain our POV. — Zerida 03:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Note: RFCU resulted in indef blocking and tagging of all related accounts. ~Kylu (u|t) 04:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Possible edit-war
Hi, I was recently banned so I took a break and haveing been said that, I feel I should ask for help before it escalates. Here's the situation, I've been trying to edit on an article and I provided a reference in the form of a narrative from the video game itself, but there seems to be some people who don't feel I can interpret the narratives portrayals. I do believe the below adheres to my right to contribute to Wikipedia. Anyway, here's the page: [2]
"Secondary sources are accounts at least one step removed from an event.[3] Secondary sources may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims.[4][5] Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." InternetHero (talk) 19:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- The short version is, you personally are not a secondary source but rather an agent of original research. Find an appropriately published secondary source with the game narrative and you may have something to work with -- though simply having a source is not itself a guarantee that the material is suitable for inclusion (I make no judgment either way here). — Lomn 21:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Depends on what's being added: plot summaries are almost always sourced to the fictional work in question, because they are neither interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims. But if you, InterhentHero, are doing any more than provided a straightforward plot summary, you should use secondary sources. Natalie (talk) 13:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, guys. What type of source is the games' narrative? I don't even feel I'm making synthetic claims at all. In a nutshell, my interpretaion of the narrative doesn't fall far from simple translation. The character obviously uses the words, 'feel', 'owww', and 'me', yet the other editors feel that this isn't sufficient evidence to interpret that the character does have some self-awareness. For all we know, the other characters could be all cross-dressors, but the only place-holder here is our reason telling us that it is logical that they're not. I feel I'm simply using logic. Does such an interpretation fall further from the narrative than I think? InternetHero (talk) 20:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- The game itself is a primary source, and can be used to "make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" (WP:PSTS). Unfortunately, if there is disagreement among editors about your representation of a narrative, it may be best to concede your point, whatever its merits (since by definition it is not therefore "easily verifiable" to them), and concentrate instead on finding a reliable source to support the information you wish to add. 86.44.6.14 (talk) 22:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- It sounds like your straying too far into interpretation to be using the game narrative as your only source here. While your claim does make logical sense, it is a synthesis of new material to claim that a character has self-awareness because it uses certain words. So finding secondary sources would be your best bet here. Natalie (talk) 02:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Zenwhat blocked indefinitely
I have blocked Zenwhat (talk · contribs) for what seems to be a bizarre pattern of disruption - odd "joke" edits such as [3], adding provocative discussion to Jimbo's talk page when Jimbo has nothing to do with it at all, edit warring with other users on their talk pages, making POINTy userspace pages that have been repeatedly speedied, among many others; all with very contribution to building our encyclopedia. Others have tried to reason with/warn him, such as at User talk:Zenwhat#Your purpose here and User talk:Zenwhat#Only warning, but it really just seems like he's only here for general disruption and trolling of the project and its community. I think it's clear that the community is at the end of its rope with him, and I have blocked him indefinitely; I welcome any further review or comments from the community. krimpet✽ 04:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- About time someone stopped the trolling. βcommand 04:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agree, and endorse indef block. I think we've had enough. - Rjd0060 (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I fully support this block. I also posted to Zenwhat's talk page recently here; seems no amount of hinting is getting through to an obviously intelligent editor. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ecX2):From what I can tell of the timeline, his only edit after the final warning was a reasonable discussion of "the Register" article on Jimbo's talk page which in itself isn't reason for block. Granted some of his edits have been "weird", he hasn't done anything block worthy after the mentioned final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 04:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- This was an older one. I had been musing on what to do myself - [4]....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Might be a little abrupt, but sometimes enough is enough. RxS (talk) 04:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse block per these edits: "inclusionism the force of evil," "inclusionism and deletionism are evil," [5], [6], "The inclusionist cabal," [7], [8], and [9]. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 04:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- All of which happened before his final warning.. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 04:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've been expecting this block for a while. Yes, there's a chance that he'll behave better if someone unblocks him, but more likely, he'll just be re-indef'd in two weeks or so. --Carnildo (talk) 05:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- All of which happened before his final warning.. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 04:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- "For instance, I assume that your constructive PETA and WP:V are just a cover for your anti-Libyan POV pushing. " Joking or not, that's trolling. Endorse the block. — DarkFalls talk 04:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Been watching it since this [10]. Endorse the block, trolling needs to stop.--Ѕandahl 04:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't fully agree with the block, it just seems so sudden, from the look of his talk page the user was discussing about a warning concerning his behavior shortly before being blocked, perhaps it would have been wise to let that discussion continue (since he only edited mainspace once after it was started) or at least issuing a shorter block before the indef. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose this block - Zenwhat's mostly meta-editing, and a lot of it's silly, but very little of it crosses the line into truly disruptive.
- Mostly or entirely meta-editing is an issue, which has been held to be something which isn't good and needs to be corrected. Crossing the line with silly stuff has also been held to be a problem.
- But this block fails to AGF and fails to give the type of clear warnings and good-faith efforts to work with the user to correct problematic behavior that we expect.
- I am strongly inclined to unblock. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- You make a reasonable case, I think. From the support for the block it sound like many people find him annoying, but this in itself isn't reason for an indef block. Maybe people with serious concerns about his editing would consider an RFC? An indef block is a harsh step if other dispute resolution avenues have not yet been explored. Friday (talk) 05:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- How are edits like this not disruptive? --MZMcBride (talk) 05:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also done before his final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 05:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, that's disruptive (on the disruptive side of being silly, but disruptive). No warning, no shorter block, straight to indef because of this? This exceeds the tolerance band for "exhausted community patience". Failure to provide adequate feedback to problem users and adequate opportunity for reform is a massive failure of administrator good faith. Mentor? Sure. Shorter block? Sure. Warnings? Definitely. Indef right now? I am wondering if it's necessary to file an arbcom case. Hopefully both the community and Krimpet see reason and adjust response accordingly.
- If all he does for the next month, after being properly warned and helped and talked to and shorter blocked, is more disruption, then I stand aside. Lacking those efforts... this is wrong, here and now. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- How are edits like this not disruptive? --MZMcBride (talk) 05:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- You make a reasonable case, I think. From the support for the block it sound like many people find him annoying, but this in itself isn't reason for an indef block. Maybe people with serious concerns about his editing would consider an RFC? An indef block is a harsh step if other dispute resolution avenues have not yet been explored. Friday (talk) 05:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I endorse this block from the diffs provided and my interactions with the user. Lara❤Love 05:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- (e/c)I've encountered Zenwhat on various pages and generally found his comments to usually be somewhere between comically strange and trolling. Unfortunately his comments have been mostly toward the latter lately. I endorse this block. Mr.Z-man 05:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I would advocate that an unblock be applied only if he is mentored, otherwise remain blocked. I might be biased, as I have only seen the more negative sides of him, but the mere existence of blatantly POINTy requests and actions and trolling over an extended period of time is too poignant to ignore. AGF does not mean we don't react if we keep getting slapped in the face. —Kurykh 05:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
An indefinite block is extreme overkill. Blocking itself is a last resort, and indef. blocking even more so. Do shorten this block, per the blocking policy. This user has gotten two blocks in their time here. Is there any reason to believe that a 24 hour block would not suffice? -- Ned Scott 05:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- That is exactly my point, no other blocks or anything of the sort, just jumping directly to the banhammer seems inappropiate, and I feel that the block was placed to get rid of him because he has a tendency of being "annoying". - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Support block, though uncertain on length of time. Zenwhat has little to no understanding of our basic policies, and even when they are explained, he responds with nothing more than contempt. Here he refers to me as a single purpose account and POV-pusher. There is no doubt in my mind Zenwhat is a reincarnation of a former editor (banned or retired, again I'm not sure) and his edits do nothing to benefit this project. With that said, Zenwhat needs to immediately change his ways, but there is a chance he could be a productive editor if he does so. - auburnpilot talk 05:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, a block is in order, but we shouldn't conclude an indef block yet. -- Ned Scott 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Remember, indefinite doesn't mean infinite; it just means the length of the block hasn't been decided or will be determined by the future actions of the blocked user. Sancho 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, a block is in order, but we shouldn't conclude an indef block yet. -- Ned Scott 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I support the indef block given much of what I've seen over the last several weeks. But since I can reasonably guess it'll be shortened, I'd support a namespace ban, no edits to the project space/project talk space for 2 months, excepting Wikipedia:Bots/Status. Possibly extending to other "discussion" spaces, depending on a more detailed examination of his edits. MBisanz talk 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, I think that might be too extreme. Give him a 24 hour, or even a week long block. He's only gotten one other block other than the one he has now. I've come across him in the project talk namespace, and while I thought his comments were a bit off the wall, I didn't consider it disruptive. -- Ned Scott 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Everyone, please do remember that "indefinite" does not mean "infinite," whatever precedent may indicate or imply. An unblock or shortening of the existing block is still on the table. —Kurykh 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd support a shortening of his block to a week or more and then a Wikispace ban after that, besides requests to AIV, RPP, and the like. I think that indef blocking is overkill in this case, but the trolling still warrants a block for a longer period of time. bibliomaniac15 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse the block. The user has been bordeline trolling at the Village Pump for some time; his discussions are unneccesarily provacative. I would support an unblock ONLY under the condition that he receive a ban against all non-article editing. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Would people support a reduction to 48 hours with a further warning? He's had a 24 hour block, for a similar reason, 48 might be a good middle ground for a next step. RxS (talk) 05:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Only if that includes a temporary ban on project space. - auburnpilot talk 05:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- The original indef block makes more sense than a reduction to me. (1 == 2)Until 05:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, well, too bad the blocking policy doesn't think that way. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- The original indef block makes more sense than a reduction to me. (1 == 2)Until 05:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think he'll get the message enough that we won't need a project space ban. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Arbitrary limits seem silly. If we believed that the user was interested in stopping the problematic behavior today, then there would be overwhelming support to overturn the block. 48 hours is not a magic number, unless we are in the business of handing out "sentances" for "crimes", and last I checked, that was not part of an admin's job description. Unless the user agrees to abide by a Wikipedia: namespace ban, I don't see where any arbitrarily shortened block would serve any purpose at all. This block is not an attempt to stop an imminently disruptive behavior, this is a chronic problem and deserves a permanent solution. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Our procedure for handling chronic problems is warn, warn, warn, try to mentor, warn, block short period, warn, try to mentor, block longer period, warn, warn, try to mentor, block slightl longer period... and repeat a bunch until indef is the last option left.
- If that procedure is followed and at the end of it, Zenwhat remains disruptive, then pull the plug. But this action has unacceptably foreshortened the endgame. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- INdeed. I agree with you 100%. I was questioning the wisdom of a 48 hour block for this. Again, we are not a court system, we don't hand out punishments. One of two things must be true: The user either poses an iminent threat that we need to stop NOW (i.e. edit warring or 3RR), or the user has exhausted the patience of the community and is no longer welcome. The debate should be about unblocking them NOW or leaving it as an indefiniate block. The inbetween stuff is pointless, as it serves no purpose. We're not lawyers working out a plea-bargin here. We're trying to decide if this user poses a net risk to Wikipedia. If they don't, unblock them now. If they do, leave it up indefinately. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think he should be blocked at all, but I figure 48 was something to make those who wanted indef something they could see as reasonable. -- Ned Scott 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- INdeed. I agree with you 100%. I was questioning the wisdom of a 48 hour block for this. Again, we are not a court system, we don't hand out punishments. One of two things must be true: The user either poses an iminent threat that we need to stop NOW (i.e. edit warring or 3RR), or the user has exhausted the patience of the community and is no longer welcome. The debate should be about unblocking them NOW or leaving it as an indefiniate block. The inbetween stuff is pointless, as it serves no purpose. We're not lawyers working out a plea-bargin here. We're trying to decide if this user poses a net risk to Wikipedia. If they don't, unblock them now. If they do, leave it up indefinately. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Arbitrary limits seem silly. If we believed that the user was interested in stopping the problematic behavior today, then there would be overwhelming support to overturn the block. 48 hours is not a magic number, unless we are in the business of handing out "sentances" for "crimes", and last I checked, that was not part of an admin's job description. Unless the user agrees to abide by a Wikipedia: namespace ban, I don't see where any arbitrarily shortened block would serve any purpose at all. This block is not an attempt to stop an imminently disruptive behavior, this is a chronic problem and deserves a permanent solution. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think he'll get the message enough that we won't need a project space ban. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm just a bit concerned about the timing of this block relative to the arrival of an article critical of Wikipedia which Zenwhat claimed to have been a (apparently unwitting) part of. Feels like someone felt he borke the first rule of Fight Club Wikipedia. ThuranX (talk) 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Do we have a link for this? -- Ned Scott 05:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- This link? Endorse shortened block and project space ban. Franamax (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, not even 48 hours. His only edit after the final warning, was not a disruptive one and he shouldn't have been blocked in the first place until he violated that final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 05:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- So he is allowed to disregard all previous warnings, but if he supposedly heeds the final warning, which shouldn't be needed in the first place, he should be unblocked? Every warning should be a final warning. —Kurykh 05:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Say what ???? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- So he is allowed to disregard all previous warnings, but if he supposedly heeds the final warning, which shouldn't be needed in the first place, he should be unblocked? Every warning should be a final warning. —Kurykh 05:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- No but at least that should have been taken under consideration before blocking, usually blocks are issued when a violation happens after the final warning. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ecX5): Considering it was given as a final warning, even named as such on his talk page, he shouldn't have been blocked until he violated it. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ecXmany) Endorse unblock (with extreme reluctance, because I think it's fair to say that Wikipedia's a more pleasant place without him) for several reasons, primarily those put forward by User:Allstarecho. If he violates his final warning after being unblocked, he should receive escalating blocks. He's just not a clear enough troll to warrant an indef. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Haggling
So, we've got quite a crowd endorsing the indefinite, and a few strongly objecting. How about a week? It's not at all obvious to me that dispute resolution methods short of the indefinite block have been exhausted. Friday (talk) 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would rather want a guarantee that he will change and his understanding of what the consequences of another such violation of our policies here will be, rather than an arbitrary block duration that is almost meaningless. —Kurykh 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can't make someone turn on a dime. Lets ask for reasonable improvement. -- Ned Scott 05:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Zenwhat has an unusual contribution history. His very first edit (and 3 subsequent edits) were to his monobook.css file. His fourth was a revert on The Transhumanist's user page. Has anyone done a check to see if these users are the same person? Zenwhat is clearly not a new user when he signed up for his account. It's possible, of course, that he had been editing for some time under an IP address (which is allowed), but it's more likely that he is either a reincarnation of another user, or a sockpuppet. None of that is necessarily against Wikipedia rules, but this account has been used from the start primarily for disruptive and bizarre project-space edits. If the account is a sock, then it should be blocked and the user told to stop doing silly stuff and to edit from his main account. If not, the user should be restricted to editing only articles (no project space or user space) and put on vandalism parole. *** Crotalus *** 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- He's admitted to being a previous user and having re-regged after forgetting his old password. He's not so much a sock as he is a nuisance. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the problem with a temp/indef project space ban is that we'd have no way to judge if he's gotten the message. I think he's proven he knows the behavioral guidelines well enough to know the effect he has by his editing patterns, he's gotten warnings...48 hours seems right. Can we get a general agreement on that? RxS (talk) 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, see my comments above. A any temporary length block is arbitrary. It would be punishment, and we do not punish. Either unblock now, or leave the block up. If we believe the user will cease the problematic behavior, then there is no reason to leave the block in place. If we believe the user will not cease the problematic behavior, then what is the point of simply allowing them to continue the behavior in 48 hours? What is magic about 48 hours or 1 week or any other number? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, not any amount of time. As I said above, his only 2 edits after the final warning, were not a disruptive ones and he shouldn't have been blocked in the first place until he violated that final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 05:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Then unblock, we can't predict what pattern he will take if he only was able to edit the mainspace once after receiving the final warning. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- You'd have a point if this was a regular vandal, but we're talking about an experienced user who should know better. He's gotten enough feedback to know that his edits were a problem, whether they were official warnings or not. RxS (talk) 05:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- No number is magical. But the answer is likely to be somewhere in between "unblock right now" and "never unblock". A few days block would help make it clear to Zenwhat that many editors find his behavior problematic. Friday (talk) 05:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I will oppose any unblock that does not contain the guarantee that he will change his attitudes, behavior, and actions, and a method of dealing with him if such circumstances arise again. Enough of his disruption and trolling. —Kurykh 05:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indef block is way, way overkill here. Not appropriate at all. Bstone (talk) 05:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Zenwhat has retired per [11]. MBisanz talk 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would not pay that any mind. He's obviously upset (with a right to be), and so I don't think it's fair to say that his retirement is permeant. Regardless of that, his account should be unblocked. -- Ned Scott 06:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have not reviewed Zenwhat's edits and know him only from interactions on my talk page. Mostly he has come there and joked around, but not in any particularly bad way if I recall. We have had some tongue-in-cheek discussions that I enjoyed. However, article space joking around is of course Not Funny(tm), and I don't approve of that. But making fun of Cade Metz's bizarre rantings in The Register seems like a good thing. I would recommend and request that he be unblocked but under a very firm request not to joke around in article space. Of course I say this not having reviewed his contributions, so I could be wrong. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- The issue seems largely NOT with his article-space edits, but with his unneccessarily provocative edits in the project-space, such as here at ANI and on the Village Pump. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- But what is "provocative"? The blocking admin said that the last edit (straw?) to JW's page was "provocative", but clearly not everyone sees it that way. R. Baley (talk) 06:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was trying to be diplomatic. He's been trolling the project discussion pages for some time. That is the central issue. Again, leave the block up or unblock now. The rest of this seems like we're plea-bargining over a punishment, and that is not why we block people. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- But what is "provocative"? The blocking admin said that the last edit (straw?) to JW's page was "provocative", but clearly not everyone sees it that way. R. Baley (talk) 06:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- The issue seems largely NOT with his article-space edits, but with his unneccessarily provocative edits in the project-space, such as here at ANI and on the Village Pump. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Has anyone looked over Zenwhat's recent contributions at Wikipedia Talk:IAR and Wikipedia Talk:WIARM since Miszabot'a recent archive? Scroll down some, it's hard to miss Zenwhat accusing, and harassing other editors as a first line of argument. Then the appeals to logic( a personal and solipsistic variety). Does Zenwhat wish to contribute to Wikipedia? In any meaningful way? The rants on these talk pages are contrary to efficient use of the Wikipediaspace talkpages, and these are policies. Not that Zenwhat is the only disruptive editor to show up on such pages, or the worst one ever, of course. Newbyguesses - Talk 15:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A ban is not the first step
A ban is the last step in the process, not the first one. The first step is giving this user specific ways he/she can improve, possibly through an RFC. He's come across my radar before and I've raised an eyebrow, but he's obviously a good faith user and it's worth taking a chance on trying to help him improve. --B (talk) 05:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- No one is banning him. We just want to see a commitment to improvement. How hard is it to achieve that? All I see is whimpers of "too harsh" and "should be unblocked" and "blocked after final warning," yet I see no genuine attempts or proposals of committing Zenwhat to get his act together by the naysayers here. —Kurykh 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Or maybe that final warning did what you're wanting? We will never know since he was blocked anyway, will we? Especially since he's now retired from WP. Shame too. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 06:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe it's just me, but I have lost any good faith on Zenwhat heeding warnings, given his prior responses to them. —Kurykh 06:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- (to Kurykh) No, that's not how it works. We don't care if he says sorry and gives us puppy eyes. This block is extreme overkill. We have other ways to deal with this, and any blocking is seen as a last resort. If you don't like that, Kurykh, take it up with the blocking policy. -- Ned Scott 06:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not the only one who doesn't want the unconditional unblock, as you can see from this thread. And I don't need him to give puppy eyes and say sorry. I just want an explicit commitment from him, and a detail of consequences were decorum be breached again. This is common procedure in these cases. I just don't see why we are allowing this one to be the sole exception. —Kurykh 06:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Or maybe that final warning did what you're wanting? We will never know since he was blocked anyway, will we? Especially since he's now retired from WP. Shame too. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 06:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Seems to me that he was given a final warning, he did not cause any further violations and yet he was indef blocked anyways. That is plainly disturbing. Bstone (talk) 06:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, this is all over the place. How about an unblock for now with a strong warning that there are serious concerns about his behavior. The point has probably been driven home effectively over the last hour. It also has to be made clear that Jimbo's comments above do not sanction his editing habits. Let's head off any more drama, and see how he reacts to all this? RxS (talk) 06:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would support an unblock now. I know I said something different WAY back there, but yes, the point is made. If the problems return, the block can return. He's hardly "under the radar" now. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I have grave concerns about due process here. It seems to me that several possible steps in dispute resolution and blocking procedure were skipped. As much as Zenwhat irritates me, this is a miscarriage. I'm discomfited by it. I would support a week's block, but indef is far too extreme. - Philippe | Talk 21:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Unblocked and put on probation
See User talk:Zenwhat#Unblocked - I have unblocked Zenwhat as there is clearly disagreement here as to the appropriateness of the block. I have also left a more clearer and wide-ranging (and less bitey) warning and probation statement there.
I invite admins to work with him with friendly discussion and cautions as appropriate. As I noted on his talk page, further serious disruption should be met by (short but increasingly long) blocks as per policy. I am not giving him a pass - I have applied longstanding user sanctions policy here. If he continues to be disruptive act appropriately. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Regardless of the block, I think there is something special about this user. The user is over active, intelligent and very aware of the wikipedia policies and its history. The user knows the system from a high level perspective: See how the user responded to me at [12], it closed my mouth to some extent. I am mostly interested to know this user, admittedly the strangest user I have ever seen on wikipedia. I originally thought that the user is over active because he wants to become an admin, and tried to check this hypothesis, but as of now, I think the user is just active in nature. --Be happy!! (talk) 06:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- And this is [13] worth seeing. --Be happy!! (talk) 06:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Whoa! That [14] is extremely clever! And of course has some insight, inasmuch as it simply applies the eightfold way to Wikipedia. Leaves me with a grinding sense of envy that I didn't do it. Anway, what are you guys doing blocking this guy, whose major contribution seems to be to make you think when you're rather not? Ignore him if that is the case! Banning or indef blocking (too little difference these days between the two given editors dislike of going against each other) is very harsh. And should be reserved for clear vandals, not gadflies. Definition of Clear Vandal, in case you've forgotten: ISP user who erases article or part of one, and inserts "Johhny suuucks *&%$." SBHarris 00:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
He's Back
[15] Charles Stewart (talk) 07:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I am against issuing any blocks against against this user whatsoever . As I mentioned above, this user is special and the above diff provided by Charles proves this further. This user may have things to say and I for one want to listen if there is anything to be learned. --Be happy!! (talk) 08:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Blocked for one week
I have now blocked him for one week for his behaviour since his unblock. You can see my explanation on his talk page[16]. Feel free to extend, unblock, or whatever else is appropriate and has some consensus here. Fram (talk) 09:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with the block. What was wrong with village pump post? --Be happy!! (talk) 09:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- That it was trolling / stirring up drama by alleging secret information right after a warning against trolling? It was a pretty good own goal, though, as the financial statements had just been published less than an hour before Zenwhat's post. I don't know if one week was the proper block length, but some block was probably necessary if we want "probation" to mean anything. Kusma (talk) 10:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- ... And that he removed comments by others when he removed the thread he started. You are not allowed to remove the comments by other people just because you change your mind for whatever reason. Doing this when one is only just unblocked and put on probation was not the best move. Fram (talk) 10:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know about the validity of his claims but why was it trolling?
- And removing the section he had started does not create sufficient ground for a block; all the other comments were responses to his original comment after all. The proper way was to archive it, though, but this is a minor thing after all... --Be happy!! (talk) 10:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. First, while the terms of Georgewilliamherbert's probation do preclude the use of Wikipedia primarily for meta-discussion, and Zenwhat did post a meta-discussion post. But he later removed it. It should be apparent that the removal of the post was an indication that Zenwhat regretted the post or at least realised it would cause disruption; or that, instead of immediately blocking Zenwhat, he should at least be engaged on his talk page. By removing his post he has, at the very least, proved himself somewhat reasonable and sensitive to the terms of probation.
- Zenwhat is already on a short leash, and realises that now. He also realised that posting the thread was disruptive, and in his realisation removed the thread. And now we are blocking him for his actions upon realisation, as opposed to reinstating the thread, archiving it and counseling Zenwhat? Ridiculous. --Iamunknown 15:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Zenwhat recognises that he should have archived rather than removed. However, the notion of this being a "1 week blocking offence"-type disruption is ridiculous. The discussion was still preserved in the history (an argument that Jimbo Wales has used to justify courtesy blanking of ArbCom pages). The edit summary makes the fact that the intent was to prevent disruption clear. Fram should reverse this block. Failing that, and even in the absence of an unblock request from Zenwhat, another admin should step in and rectify Fram's mistake. Fram's decision to restore the section - unarchived - appears not so much an attempt to preserve comments as it was an attempt to hold Zenwhat up to ridicule. I base this on the comment Fram made on Zenwhat's talk page (now stricken) that the section in question made him look a fool. This was not a cool and dispassionate use of tools based on an objective look at the situation, and the block should be reversed on that basis alone. Jay*Jay (talk) 15:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. This is just a case of someone wanting him blocked and using the terms of his probation as an excuse. Georgewilliamherbert's stipulations do not prevent Zenwhat from meta-discussion. Georgewilliamherbert only pointed out that Zenwhat's meta-discussion are considered controversial and objectionable. He didn't outright say "don't post meta-discussion". The Village Pump post was not in violation of the probation terms nor was it disrupting. In fact, many users were engaged in the conversation. He does have the right to remove something, especially since he felt he put it there in the first place out of anger. He even had the best possible edit summary explaining his removal. This block as well is foul. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 16:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I must have missed the policy change where it is allright to remove posts from other users just because you initiated the thread... And the best possible edit summary? He didn't want a flamefest, so he removed a post that was (according to you) not disruptive, and where no flames or even smoke were apparent... Fram (talk) 19:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
After all the discussion about his first block, and then an unblock and a warning he writes Based on a certain inside informer I know, I have learned that in 2007, the Wikimedia Foundation has been squandering your donations?? And spamming it on editors talk pages. I think a week is fine....that's pretty dang close to a classic case of trolling, no matter if he did remove it later. Endorse re-block, if someone wants to adjust the length that's fine, but it's clear he learned nothing from the first go around. RxS (talk) 16:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- What is this block supposed to be preventing? Blocks are, after all, preventative, not punitive. Given that he deleted the thread himself, he sort of seems a low risk of re-offending. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- It prevents the exact type of behavior the user would continue in if left unblocked. that is what it prevents. (1 == 2)Until 16:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- It seems he undid the offending post. If this sort of behaviour or other behaviour breaching the probation was to continue then there would be merit for a block, but a single offence of questionable intent doesn't seem to cut it. I'd rather see how this travels before we get a decision. Have unblocked per the discussion here and on Zenwhat's talk page - does not preclude further blocks if he offends again, but I think he's got the message that change is expected of him. Orderinchaos 17:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
There are far worse users who get a bye here at Wikipedia
Interesting how this particular user seems to have gotten the goad of some of the *ahem* usual suspects. Sure, this user is rough around the edges (kinda like me) and has done some things that are provocative -- perhaps even to the point of trying the community patience. But that you guys would see fit to block Zenwhat indefinitely and then hold the hand of many of the other argumentative weirdos that use Wikipedia as their personal playground for disruption is beyond me. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, Zenwhat's announced retirement has quite possibly closed this matter. I personally hope that there will be no need to return to it in the future; a satisfactory solution looks unlikely, and Zenwhat's approach makes it doubtful that his work could have the intended positive effect on the community. --Kizor 15:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Some of his comments are kinda crazy, but I've found some his input to be helpful and positive. So no, you are wrong. This block is unnecessary, and should be undone. I'll give a standing offer to Zen that if he wants anything posted, I'll do it for him. -- Ned Scott 06:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. There was some well-intended bits in there but the tin-foil hats required made much of it, ironically, static which they seemed to object to. Benjiboi 07:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I found him to be kinda annoying on many occasions (unjustified AfDs and so on) and incomprehensible most of the time. His net contribution to the encyclopedia is probably negative, given the amount of time it takes to deal with him. Sarsaparilla (talk) 23:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Is it just me...
...or do Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oxford Round Table and the talk page of the article nominated for deletion appear to have more socks than a branch of Sock Shop? GBT/C 17:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's not just you, and the whole thing has been giving me an itchy block finger from the outset. I found "one or two" SPAs when I first responded to an OTRS complaint about this:
- Obscuredata (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Tepid1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Academic38 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Drstones (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- OrionClemens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Amelia9mm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Franknfair (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Academic2007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Coligny (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Clearly we can add a few more to that inglorious list:
- Billingsworth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Slintfan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- InformationKey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- LAstride (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Jrichardstevens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- What say, block the lot? Guy (Help!) 17:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. AfD a pointless mess, being used to continue some pointless vendetta. Not that the article talkpage is much better. Relata refero (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Would another admin please review this huge number of blocks? While it seems likely that some of them are either sock or meat puppets (I even filed an SSP report on some of them), I think others have demonstrated a willingness to work within Wikipedia guidelines. Blocking the lot of them as "disruptive SPAs" seems excessive. Pairadox (talk) 23:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is overkill. I'm looking at Jrichardstevens (talk · contribs), who is requesting unblock. His explanation of how he found the AFD seems reasonable and he is a long-time, though infrequent user. Unless someone can offer a really good reason for this block, I'm inclined to remove it.--B (talk) 02:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please include Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs) in your review, since nobody else seems to be looking at these. Pairadox (talk) 07:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- These are all single purpose accounts with an agenda of either promoting or knocking a marginally notable company. We can do without them. All of them. Guy (Help!) 08:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please include Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs) in your review, since nobody else seems to be looking at these. Pairadox (talk) 07:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is overkill. I'm looking at Jrichardstevens (talk · contribs), who is requesting unblock. His explanation of how he found the AFD seems reasonable and he is a long-time, though infrequent user. Unless someone can offer a really good reason for this block, I'm inclined to remove it.--B (talk) 02:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Would another admin please review this huge number of blocks? While it seems likely that some of them are either sock or meat puppets (I even filed an SSP report on some of them), I think others have demonstrated a willingness to work within Wikipedia guidelines. Blocking the lot of them as "disruptive SPAs" seems excessive. Pairadox (talk) 23:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Please note the newly created User:Athoughtforyou, another SPA. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Just looking at Nomoskedasticity, I see no reason for this account to be blocked. It's focused on a single article, yes, but it is not being disruptive about it in any way that I can see. Sandstein (talk) 09:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fine, unblock that user then. The rest can stay blocked, at least until the deletion debate is finished, and forever if the article is kept. They are bringing an off-wiki dispute to Wikipedia, and that is all they are doing. We simply don't need that. Guy (Help!) 16:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- With your agreement, I've granted Nomoskedasticity's unblock request. Sandstein (talk) 16:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fine, unblock that user then. The rest can stay blocked, at least until the deletion debate is finished, and forever if the article is kept. They are bringing an off-wiki dispute to Wikipedia, and that is all they are doing. We simply don't need that. Guy (Help!) 16:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Review of three of the above blocks
I agree with B that this is overkill. Three are quite clearly not single-purpose accounts. I agree in principle with the blocks of those editing the article and AfD disruptively, but I don't agree with the lengths. The Oxford Round Table situation needed sorting out, but some of these accounts are new (only 2-5 edits), and probably arrived here to take part in the AfD, but, if handled correctly (a stern warning, for example), could learn their lessons and (in time, after learning how things work around here) contribute to Wikipedia. They could be, for example, American or Oxford academics, who, if properly guided and introduced to Wikipedia, could really provide some good contributions - this at least argues for a warning and guidance, rather then being labelled SPAs after only 2-5 edits (sockpuppets excepted, if we can identify them).
One of the three accounts that are, in my opinion, examples of collateral damage is: Special:Contributions/Amelia9mm.
I also looked at this thread from Guy's (JzG's) talk page, about the block of Jrichardstevens:
- [17] (Revolving Bugbear raises concerns)
- [18] (the account holder also objects to the block)
- [19] (Guy's reply)
I've urged Guy (by e-mail and on his talk page), to look again at:
These are as far from being single-purpose accounts as it is possible to be (remember that the Oxford Round Table article was created on 13:10, 9 December 2007):
Jrichardstevens: Account created 4 November 2005
Eight innocuous edits to unrelated articles over a period of around two years. Not the greatest of contributions, but the potential is there for someone who was interested enough to register an account to (one day) start contributing more. Indeed, the foray into Wikipedia namespace showed someone who might well have started contributing more. But given his reaction to the block Guy placed, that may no longer happen.
Amelia9mm: Account created 25 May 2007
Two minor edits to the article in question. Absolutely no reason to block.
If we look at the account creation dates for the accounts listed in that ANI thread, we see that all the accounts, except three, were created in the period from December 2007 to February 2008. Two of those created before that period are the ones I've mentioned above. The other one is Drstones (who created the article in question):
And indeed, when we look closer, we see that the initial edits of this account are fine:
And from later:
For Guy to say the following in the block log "Disruptive single purpose account", is incredibly frustrating, and a flagrant abuse of the SPA label. I understand fully that he was acting out of concern that this conflict, which apparently includes an off-wiki legal case, was being brought on-wiki, but that doesn't mean he or we have to suspend judgment on these issues. These three accounts are clearly not a single-purpose account, regardless of whether it was disruptive or not. The Drstones account is a bit different, because he created the article, but it is still clearly not an SPA. Maybe disruptive, but not an SPA.
I think Guy owes all three of these accounts an apology for incorrectly calling them "single-purpose accounts" in the block logs, and I think he should apologise in this ANI thread as well. I am incensed that blocks like this are still being handed out, and that the SPA (single-purpose account) label is being abused like this.
And there is more.
Look at the sequence of events in the ANI thread:
- Gb posts at 17:08, 8 February 2008 - with an initial query
- Guy posts at 17:50, 8 February 2008 - long list of alleged SPAs
- Relata refaro posts at 18:17, 8 February 2008 - a brief agreement
- Guy blocks 15 of the accounts between 19:46 and 19:48
What does that brief timescale (less than 3 hours), bad blocks, bad advice, and small amount of input remind anyone of? It reminds me of the recent MatthewHoffman arbitration case. The difference here is that the objections to some of these blocks are slowly but surely arriving, and as far as I can see, Guy has provided no justification for his incorrect labelling of three of these accounts as "single-purpose accounts". If there is OTRS or Foundation or checkuser concerns specifically linking these accounts, then that needs to be made much, much clearer.
Oh, and there are actually 17 accounts listed there: Franknfair was blocked earlier for legal threats (so why did Guy list that account as one to be blocked?? Surely he should have looked into the account history before listing it at ANI?). And Coligny seems to have slipped through the cracks - looks like Guy forgot to block him at all. That is not the mark of someone doing a careful and thorough job. Getting things this badly wrong is not good.
I'm left asking myself - was I the only one to bother reviewing all the accounts that Guy blocked? How can ANI be so bad at doing a review like that? Why did Guy take a single reply in that thread, after it had been up for three hours, as an OK to indefinitely block the lot of them?
Note that two of the blocks have already been lifted: Jrichardstevens and Nomoskedasticity, but one of the blocks, the most unjustified of the lot, had a block review declined! See the next bit below.
I've been following this on and off all day, along with e-mailing several people to ask them to review Guy's blocks, but the last straw was the following hideously unfair review process, where the reviewing admin is not being independent, and is just accepting without question what Guy says:
- [29] (unblock request)
- [30] (Trusilver answers)
- [31] (asks Guy for a reason)
- [32] (Guy supplys reason)
- [33] (Trusilver declines unblock request by parotting reply from Guy)
Guy said: "A group of people have brought an off-wiki dispute to Wikipedia, this dispute includes real-world legal action and has prompted complaints to the Foundation. This user is one of a group of single purpose accounts with no history outside this subject. I blocked the lot."
Trusilver accepted that reason without so much as a murmur, and went back and declined the unblock request. It is clear that Trusilver looked at the edit history in question, so why didn't he point out to Guy that his claim of "accounts with no history outside this subject" was patently wrong?
Please look at the account creation date and look at the two edits this account made to the article (early on in the history and with no apparent connection to the later conflict). If Guy had any other evidence (eg. checkuser) then he needed to actually say this. Amelia9mm has made a total of 12 edits in the nine months since she registered an account. I made a total of 6 edits in my first six months here. Please don't bite the new editors!
For some questions arising from this, see the next section below. Carcharoth (talk) 23:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Questions arising from these blocks by Guy
To sum up, my questions would be:
- (1) Blocks: Which accounts should be unblocked or have their blocks shortened? Jrichardstevens and Nomoskedasticity have already been unblocked. Franknfair was blocked in January for legal threats. Coligny was never blocked. I think Amelia9mm should be unblocked straightaway, with full apologies and the incorrectness of the block noted in the unblock log. Drstones, who is more involved as the creator of the article in question, although not an SPA, should be reviewed along with all the other editors (including Nomoskedasticity) for the "legal concerns" Guy mentions, but I don't think indefinite blocks are appropriate. Two of the editors: Billingsworth and InformationKey blocked for sock puppeting - more sockpuppets may exist.
- (2) Blocking reasons: Why did Guy block all these accounts without checking their history properly? Even a brief look at the account creation dates and the contributions shows us that three accounts (Special:Contributions/Jrichardstevens, Special:Contributions/Amelia9mm, Special:Contributions/Drstones) are clearly not single-purpose accounts, and were created and were editing before the article even existed.
- (3) Speed of blocking: Why did Guy act so quickly (3 hours) instead of waiting for more input from ANI?
- (4) Advice given: Why did Relata refero give the advice he did? Does he stand by his comment?
- (5) Responsiveness and defending blocks: Why did Guy continue to insist they were all single-purpose accounts when objections began to arrive? Why does he object so strongly to his blocks being overturned? Do people sometimes think it's not worth challenging a dismissive and confident block handed out by Guy?
- (6) Other reasons: If there were other reasons for blocking the accounts, why did Guy not say so?
- (7) Role of ANI: Why did no-one reading the ANI thread spot that some of the accounts were not single-purpose accounts? Did anyone even bother to review all those blocks, or did they just trust Guy's judgment?
- (8) Failure of block review process: Why did Trusilver not carry out an independent block review of the Amelia9mm account and instead parrot the reason he was given by Guy?
I really hope it is possible to get proper answers to all eight of those sets of questions. I've already posted to Guy's talk page, and I'll notify Trusilver and Relata refero now. I have already e-mailed Guy and Trusilver, and several others (communicating by e-mail because of some silly wikibreak I was trying to stick to), but I'll keep everything on-wiki from now on (other than replying to the e-mails I sent earlier). I've also notified the three accounts in question: [34], [35], [36]. I've also notified Nomoskedasticity and the previous participants in this thread. Carcharoth (talk) 23:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know what to make of these. They need to be reviewed by a checkuser with OTRS access. At least one (that I removed) was a flagrantly bad block. JzG says there is OTRS evidence that needs to be reviewed so I don't have enough information to make a decision. --B (talk) 00:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Even after reviewing the evidence by Carcharoth above, this looks awfully like a meat puppet ring which sprang into joint action over this particular nomination. I don't believe JzG has done anything monumentally wrong. If we start getting mindlessly bureaucratic such as the above, we are giving trolls a free pass to take over the encyclopaedia and AN/I becomes even more useless than it already is. We make people admins in order that they can deal with crises - this AfD qualified, in my view. Orderinchaos 01:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- ...and the
terroriststrolls win! You remind me of what the Bush administration, and other like-thinking politicians, keep saying as they flush civil liberties down the toilet. *Dan T.* (talk) 02:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)- I've got no problem with due process. Those who follow my contribs on here will see I've unblocked quite a few people, sometimes controversially, because the case built against them here is a house of sticks based on speculation. I was merely commenting that I don't think the above 8 questions help the encyclopaedia and just introduce more bureaucracy. A real life example - when a suburban party gets out of control and the neighbourhood's getting trashed, the police will typically arrest and detain most of the people they find at the scene - even as many as 400 or 500. As the following hours proceed, it will follow that most of those people (all but maybe about 10 or even less) will be freed as the investigation proceeds, usually after a couple of hours. Does that mean the police should rewrite their rule book? No. I'd be sympathetic to the blocks being struck off the accounts' records in such cases if a review finds them to have been totally mistaken (as I believe was the case with Jrichardstevens) but I think in general policy is being managed acceptably. Could be better, but so can most things. Orderinchaos 02:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Dan, I agree with Orderinchaos here - he has unblocked Amelia99m, so he is being fair here. Orderinchaos, the reference to a meatpuppet ring is fair enough, but I was focusing on three accounts in particular - all of which predated the creation of the article. I hope you would agree that Amelia9mm shouldn't be accused of being a meatpuppet. It seems that Jrichardstevens was aware of the offsite debate (though I haven't checked that yet), but he should be seen as some who was already contributing to Wikipedia, who decided to try and help out - Guy accusing him of being an SPA was way over the line. I'll repeat what I said before - it is a common pattern to see sporadic contributions for the first year or so at Wikipedia before people dive in deeper. We can't assume that this sort of pattern of sporadic edits over a few years means anything more than that, and I hope you would agree with that. No, actually, I know you agree with that. I hope that those who currently disagree will change their minds, and that Guy in particular will hold his hands up, swallow his pride, and say he got these two blocks wrong. Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd agree that these two were not SPAs or meatpuppets - in fact JRS voted the same way as JzG on the AfD, and Amelia didn't vote at all, so if they were aware of the debate from outside, they exercised either independence or restraint. Like I said it's been a sweep of a thoroughly nasty situation that caught up some people who were unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have few other edits on the encyclopaedia but who were likely good faith editors, much like my police analogy above. I still am of the opinion there should be a transparent mechanism to nuke incorrect blocks off the record, as whether we like it or not, people come to assumptions based on the block record. Orderinchaos 07:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Dan, I agree with Orderinchaos here - he has unblocked Amelia99m, so he is being fair here. Orderinchaos, the reference to a meatpuppet ring is fair enough, but I was focusing on three accounts in particular - all of which predated the creation of the article. I hope you would agree that Amelia9mm shouldn't be accused of being a meatpuppet. It seems that Jrichardstevens was aware of the offsite debate (though I haven't checked that yet), but he should be seen as some who was already contributing to Wikipedia, who decided to try and help out - Guy accusing him of being an SPA was way over the line. I'll repeat what I said before - it is a common pattern to see sporadic contributions for the first year or so at Wikipedia before people dive in deeper. We can't assume that this sort of pattern of sporadic edits over a few years means anything more than that, and I hope you would agree with that. No, actually, I know you agree with that. I hope that those who currently disagree will change their minds, and that Guy in particular will hold his hands up, swallow his pride, and say he got these two blocks wrong. Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've got no problem with due process. Those who follow my contribs on here will see I've unblocked quite a few people, sometimes controversially, because the case built against them here is a house of sticks based on speculation. I was merely commenting that I don't think the above 8 questions help the encyclopaedia and just introduce more bureaucracy. A real life example - when a suburban party gets out of control and the neighbourhood's getting trashed, the police will typically arrest and detain most of the people they find at the scene - even as many as 400 or 500. As the following hours proceed, it will follow that most of those people (all but maybe about 10 or even less) will be freed as the investigation proceeds, usually after a couple of hours. Does that mean the police should rewrite their rule book? No. I'd be sympathetic to the blocks being struck off the accounts' records in such cases if a review finds them to have been totally mistaken (as I believe was the case with Jrichardstevens) but I think in general policy is being managed acceptably. Could be better, but so can most things. Orderinchaos 02:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- ...and the
- As a person marginally involved in this (someone called me in to Oxford Round Table when it was getting a bit out of hand and I secured consensus for removal of the worst of the poorly sourced material), I think JzG acted in a timely and sensible manner. --Tony Sidaway 01:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- This isn't about assessing blame. It's about determining the disposition of these users. At least one of them is a professor at a major college - SMU. We have a real problem on this encyclopedia with chasing away experts. If the blocks are 90% right and 10% wrong, we need to identify and unblock the 10%. The best way to do that is if someone with checkuser and OTRS access could take a look to see which ones are socks and which ones were making edits for which there is evidence of problems in OTRS. --B (talk) 01:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Who mentioned blame? I gave up OTRS access a few months ago, but the activity here has been particularly egregious and blatant. The evidence is on the wiki. --Tony Sidaway 02:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tony, are you seriously saying that Amelia9mm was involved in all this? Are you seriously saying that the block of Jrichardstevens was justified? Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have made no statements about the activities of either editor. I refer to JzG's timely and sensible actions. If there are editors in that long lists who were not involved in the abuse, they can be unblocked. This is in fact what these discussions are for. --Tony Sidaway 17:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tony, are you seriously saying that Amelia9mm was involved in all this? Are you seriously saying that the block of Jrichardstevens was justified? Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Who mentioned blame? I gave up OTRS access a few months ago, but the activity here has been particularly egregious and blatant. The evidence is on the wiki. --Tony Sidaway 02:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- This isn't about assessing blame. It's about determining the disposition of these users. At least one of them is a professor at a major college - SMU. We have a real problem on this encyclopedia with chasing away experts. If the blocks are 90% right and 10% wrong, we need to identify and unblock the 10%. The best way to do that is if someone with checkuser and OTRS access could take a look to see which ones are socks and which ones were making edits for which there is evidence of problems in OTRS. --B (talk) 01:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Even after reviewing the evidence by Carcharoth above, this looks awfully like a meat puppet ring which sprang into joint action over this particular nomination. I don't believe JzG has done anything monumentally wrong. If we start getting mindlessly bureaucratic such as the above, we are giving trolls a free pass to take over the encyclopaedia and AN/I becomes even more useless than it already is. We make people admins in order that they can deal with crises - this AfD qualified, in my view. Orderinchaos 01:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry but do we expect outsiders to know how things work at wikipedia, and when they oh-so-suprisingly fail to do so, block them for it? ViridaeTalk 02:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- If they come to abuse Wikipedia, yes they must be blocked. --Tony Sidaway 02:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- How the hell do they know they are abusing wikipedia if they don't know what rules they are breaking? Seriously when it comes to the academic establishment, we might want to try and educate them about how wikipedia works before breaking out the banhammer. ViridaeTalk 02:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, and I said this earlier in the thread. Some academics are particular prone to 'fighting' against restrictive Wikipedia polices, but some are perfectly reasonable, and we mustn't scare those ones off. I am going to quote in full what Jrichardstevens said on his talk page:
I still think Guy needs to go and apologise here. Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)"Thanks for the attention to whose looking into this. I am trying to be patient (perceived injustice is difficult to swallow, even in the short-term). I do understand the rules here, but I have to say that the invitation for non-regulars posted at the top of the page that led to my block does seem to invite exactly the the type of comments I left. I weighed in as a person being talked about in the third person (one of the justifications for deletion was that academics would get the wrong idea about the conference. I weighed in and spoke as one of those academics who had found the site). I do not see how an editor can block users who leave comments like mine when there is a clear invitation for such comments at the top of the page. Right now, I am rather disgusted with Wikipedia. I know that there are checks and balances underway, but it seems I lost access as one person who expressed a particular view, and so was judged by the "company" I keep in opinions. Guilt by association is alive and well, it would seem. The thought that my first (and only) interaction with "Guy" could be his block of me (with me having no recourse to even speak to him directly about his decision) doesn't speak well for how the Wikipedia community has developed over the years. Again, thanks to the editors arguing on my behalf. Sorry if I seem touchy." - Jrichardstevens
- I agree, and I said this earlier in the thread. Some academics are particular prone to 'fighting' against restrictive Wikipedia polices, but some are perfectly reasonable, and we mustn't scare those ones off. I am going to quote in full what Jrichardstevens said on his talk page:
- How the hell do they know they are abusing wikipedia if they don't know what rules they are breaking? Seriously when it comes to the academic establishment, we might want to try and educate them about how wikipedia works before breaking out the banhammer. ViridaeTalk 02:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Have reviewed and in my opinion:
- Amelia is most likely a good faith user. Needs to be educated re our RS and BLP policies re other edits.
- Jrichardstevens is fine and should be unblocked.
- Drstones is clearly an SPA and the block should stand.
Orderinchaos 02:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Drstones edited other articles before creating the one in question. He edited two other articles after creating the one in question. In any event, even if he were an SPA, there's nothing that says we block all SPAs - we only block those that are disruptive. On the surface, I see someone who doesn't understand our policies and practices, but I don't see someone who is intentionally disruptive. --B (talk) 02:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The article he created, battled to defend and has invested more than 90% of his edits in is now being handled by OTRS. Those who have reviewed that evidence have said there is a strong case. That's good enough for me - we should show some responsibility as a Top 10 site here when outside bodies take the trouble to bring these things to our attention. Orderinchaos 02:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Has a Checkuser reviewed the situation? --Akhilleus (talk) 02:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't believe so, but I can't say for sure. I'd run with the assumption that they haven't, though. Orderinchaos 02:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Has a Checkuser reviewed the situation? --Akhilleus (talk) 02:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The article he created, battled to defend and has invested more than 90% of his edits in is now being handled by OTRS. Those who have reviewed that evidence have said there is a strong case. That's good enough for me - we should show some responsibility as a Top 10 site here when outside bodies take the trouble to bring these things to our attention. Orderinchaos 02:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Drstones edited other articles before creating the one in question. He edited two other articles after creating the one in question. In any event, even if he were an SPA, there's nothing that says we block all SPAs - we only block those that are disruptive. On the surface, I see someone who doesn't understand our policies and practices, but I don't see someone who is intentionally disruptive. --B (talk) 02:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I think Amelia9mm should be unblocked, she's not a SPA and she doesn't have any obvious connection to the sock/meatpuppetry affecting the article and the AfD. Jrichardstevens is already unblocked. For the rest, a Checkuser request might bring some clarity. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, Amelia9mm has been unblocked. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, forgot to notify here. I agree with the Checkuser request idea, not sure how to raise it though! (Normally it's by username, but there's so many here.) Orderinchaos 02:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I've checked this out for myself - #2008012410015146 is the associated OTRS ticket. Basically, these users are coming in from an outside forum - this diff from a now-blocked user sums it up pretty accurately, and this appears to be the forum thread in question. A CU should be able to see if any of these accounts are sockpuppets, but I suspect at least some of them are separate users of this (fairly highly trafficked) forum who are only barely familiar with how WP works. I'd suggest looking into unblocking the non-disruptive ones, though of course they should still be considered as a bloc for matters related to this article and AfD, and the AfD closer should take that into account. krimpet✽ 02:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Krimpet, thank-you for quoting the OTRS ticket number - here is a question for you - if any of the blocks were based on an OTRS ticket, should Guy have quoted the OTRS ticket number both in the block logs, the ANI thread and the AfD? That would have made things a lot clearer to anyone actually carrying out a review, as ANI is supposed to be for. As it stands, I've looked through Guy's contributions, and comments like "What say, block the lot?" and "the whole thing has been giving me an itchy block finger from the outset". Guy mentions OTRS once, as far as I can tell, in this ANI thread, and mentions the off-wiki legal actions once or twice, see here and here, as well as the AfD. My problem is that Guy seems to have combined a nebulous OTRS complaint with a (seemingly justified) suspicion of sockpuppets, and then indefinitely blocked everyone in sight without checking things such as account creation dates or actual edits. He may have been relying on people filing unblock requests to overcome wrong blocks, but I was gobsmacked when the Amelia9mm unblock request was denied on the basis "no history outside this subject" - which is plainly wrong - it you are going to unhold an indefinite block like that, please get your facts straight. Regarding the Drstones block, if, and only if, OTRS confirm this legal threat involving Drstones, then I endorse the block of Drstones, though I do wonder whether our WP:LEGAL document means he would be allowed to edit other articles or not? I would also urge people blocking on the basis of an OTRS ticket to quote the OTRS number (surely that is not too difficult?). Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I can confirm that the litigation as outlined in that diff by Franknfair is in fact true. However the ticket isn't really related to any of these later sockpuppetry concerns, it was over the content that Drstones and others were adding to the article, including criticism sourced solely to forum posts and their self-written blogs. The ensuing AfD was Guy's own decision to undertake it seems; it wasn't a "per OTRS" action per se. krimpet✽ 15:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Krimpet, thank-you for quoting the OTRS ticket number - here is a question for you - if any of the blocks were based on an OTRS ticket, should Guy have quoted the OTRS ticket number both in the block logs, the ANI thread and the AfD? That would have made things a lot clearer to anyone actually carrying out a review, as ANI is supposed to be for. As it stands, I've looked through Guy's contributions, and comments like "What say, block the lot?" and "the whole thing has been giving me an itchy block finger from the outset". Guy mentions OTRS once, as far as I can tell, in this ANI thread, and mentions the off-wiki legal actions once or twice, see here and here, as well as the AfD. My problem is that Guy seems to have combined a nebulous OTRS complaint with a (seemingly justified) suspicion of sockpuppets, and then indefinitely blocked everyone in sight without checking things such as account creation dates or actual edits. He may have been relying on people filing unblock requests to overcome wrong blocks, but I was gobsmacked when the Amelia9mm unblock request was denied on the basis "no history outside this subject" - which is plainly wrong - it you are going to unhold an indefinite block like that, please get your facts straight. Regarding the Drstones block, if, and only if, OTRS confirm this legal threat involving Drstones, then I endorse the block of Drstones, though I do wonder whether our WP:LEGAL document means he would be allowed to edit other articles or not? I would also urge people blocking on the basis of an OTRS ticket to quote the OTRS number (surely that is not too difficult?). Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was just looking at the Chronicle forum, and I think Krimpet is right--many of these SPAs are probably people who were reading the forum and decided to join in on the fun at Wikipedia. I suppose this falls under WP:MEAT, but it doesn't look like it's being coordinated by any particular person, nor are there any posts on the forum telling people to go to Wikipedia and take a specific action. So, I'd agree that their votes shouldn't be given much weight at the AfD, but if these editors are interested in becoming productive contributors to Wikipedia, we should unblock them. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Just bring it to checkuser already. I declined Amelia's RFU and given the exact same circumstances, I would deny a similar request. On the surface, there is nothing that Guy did wrong with the possible exception of maybe being a little quick on the block. Amelia has very little of an edit history and dropped in to participate in a hot button issue after a long time between edits. That smells extremely strongly of a sleeper sock to me. At the very least it is incredibly suggestive. The amount of work that's gone into this whole thing is downright amusing. Checkuser...problem solved...it all comes out in the wash. Trusilver 03:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The main reason I unblocked Amelia was that she didn't make any edits to the AfD and her edits to the article were very minor. (Her edits to other articles, strangely, were actually more problematic.) Had I seen AfD edits I think it would have taken a clear consensus to unblock. A checkuser isn't going to help much, come to think of it, if they are dispersed users coming in from a forum. I agree with Trusilver re JzG's actions. Orderinchaos 04:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Trusilver, two of the accounts I highlighted (Amelia99m and Jrichardstevens) don't warrant checkuser - in their cases any checkuser request would just be fishing and an abuse of the checkuser process. You have to have stronger evidence of any sockpupettry in their case. Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The main reason I unblocked Amelia was that she didn't make any edits to the AfD and her edits to the article were very minor. (Her edits to other articles, strangely, were actually more problematic.) Had I seen AfD edits I think it would have taken a clear consensus to unblock. A checkuser isn't going to help much, come to think of it, if they are dispersed users coming in from a forum. I agree with Trusilver re JzG's actions. Orderinchaos 04:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Just bring it to checkuser already. I declined Amelia's RFU and given the exact same circumstances, I would deny a similar request. On the surface, there is nothing that Guy did wrong with the possible exception of maybe being a little quick on the block. Amelia has very little of an edit history and dropped in to participate in a hot button issue after a long time between edits. That smells extremely strongly of a sleeper sock to me. At the very least it is incredibly suggestive. The amount of work that's gone into this whole thing is downright amusing. Checkuser...problem solved...it all comes out in the wash. Trusilver 03:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Checkuser request filed. But this probably won't be "problem solved"; I'd place a bet that some of these users are going to come up as "unrelated". --Akhilleus (talk) 03:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe because (gasp!) they are unrelated? It is possible you know. Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Orderinchaos, thank you for at least addressing question 1. I agree that the Drstones account should remain blocked, but would question why the Nomoskedasticity account (which is as much of an SPA as the others) gets unblocked. Either block them all and tell them to register new accounts but stay away from that article, or review all of them to determine the level of disruption, and unblock accordingly. Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Carcharoth, I think you've done an admirable thing in trying to ensure that these blocks are investigated fully. Your instincts are spot-on here. The only problem is that when I look at the above, I see Guy rather distinctly saying something along the lines of "AfD a mess, legal action involved, even if some of them are not SPAs, that can be discussed and they unblocked after the AfD is over." Now, by the standards of murkiness and arbitariness that have been set recently, that is both a lot of information and a great willingness to step back and compromise. Perhaps you could have chosen a better example.
About whether I would give him the same advice, that's a good question: I certainly think that an account that has had three or four edits over months and suddenly explodes into life on one issue contentious on RW is, if not necessarily a sleeper sock, hardly anything other than an SPA. DrStones made five edits to three articles before spending a lot of time on this one. If you look at the AfD at the time that Guy brought it here; it consisted essentially of the above list of accounts warring incomprehensibly; a look at the talkpage of the article isn't very different. I find it difficult to believe that they were contributing any useful information for other commenters; or at least that there was any more forthcoming from them. As such, from the point of view of the project, they were not helping - disrupting our work - non-socks or no.
Finally, Guy is liable to make courageous blocks. Some of them are mistaken - though these not so much. I had a tiring time last night with one user who should really have been banned as a menace to the project at any of the last four arbcoms he went through. I wasn't when, sitting and reading up on the background, I discovered that in the last one the only editor who bothered to go out of his way enough to propose banning him as a disruptive POV-pusher was Guy. (It didn't pass, because the dear little ArbCom gets confused when they have more than two issues to think about at a given time.) You may not like it, or the way he goes about it, but Guy's actions in most cases end up helping the project. Relata refero (talk) 07:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hang on. I only questioned three of the blocks. And some of the accounts that were blocked had never participated in the AfD. (That shoots down Guy's argument straightaway, and shows that he just blocked indiscriminately). I said I agreed in principle with the other blocks (if not the length), and I now agree with the Drstones block (it was only late on that I realised that he created the article - Guy could have helped by making that clearer). As for "five edits to three articles before spending a lot of time on this one", this is along the lines of the "90%" comment made by Orderinchaos. Stats like that can give a misleading impression. It is actually 40 edits over a period of 5 months, 30 of which were to the article and its talk page. I make that 75%, not 90%, but let's not quibble there. My point here is that Drstones clearly did bring an offwiki dispute on-wiki, but he should be allowed to learn a lesson from this. Guy's abrasive attitude is not best suited to handling that sort of thing. My editing history shows that up until the end of July 2005 I had made most of my edits to 7 July 2005 London bombings and related articles and debates (about 100 out of 110 edits). For all intents and purposes, I was a single-purpose account focused on that article. In today's climate, if I had made a mis-step, said something unsourced about one of the bombers or bomb victims, or encountered a bad block for a multitude of other reasons, I might have been so affronted at my treatment that I might never have returned. As for the thoroughness of my review, I wish more people did reviews as thorough as this. The impression I got, in the day that I waited for various replies, was that no-one was bothering to review all the accounts, when two (going by the account creation dates) were sticking out like sore thumbs as bad blocks. I'll finish by quoting what Jrichardstevens and Amelia9mm said on their talk pages when requesting unblocks:
and"Right now, I am rather disgusted with Wikipedia. I know that there are checks and balances underway, but it seems I lost access as one person who expressed a particular view, and so was judged by the "company" I keep in opinions. Guilt by association is alive and well, it would seem." - Jrichardstevens
How on Earth does that help the project? I still say, very strongly, that Guy owes those two accounts an apology. Carcharoth (talk) 07:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)"I don't know why this is blocked, nor do I know what I could possibly have done that is disruptive. Why would I want to bother to come to improve info on wikipedia if some total stranger can block my account? How is it that someone I have never heard of can block my account INDEFINITELY? His linked page says "I am here for some very limited purposes.." Hello? Some explanation could be useful here! [...] Could someone help explain this statement about a legal action? What is that about? I don't know anything about any legal action. What am I purported to have done?" - Amelia9mm
- Agree that Guy's attitude is sometimes too abrasive for efficiency.
- Disagree that the project isn't better for the incident.
- Agree that completely that more thorough review is always a good thing, and again, thanks for putting the time in on this. Relata refero (talk) 09:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Another question
I'm sure I'll get accused of trolling again, but seriously.. An AfD by JzG/Guy of the Oxford Round Table article and then he starts blocking people left and right that are participating in that very AfD? Sets off bells for me. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 02:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, that's an important detail that was left out. Umm ... yeah, that's bad. --B (talk) 02:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Note that he blocked many people who agreed with him that it should be deleted. So it's hardly the egregious violation of COI that is being suggested here. Orderinchaos 02:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- He used tools in a dispute that he was involved in. There really should be no further discussion beyond how sharp a reminder/reprimand is appropriate. Jd2718 (talk) 02:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, that's not how it works. Starting an AfD on an article does not mean you cannot enforce policy with regards to users who edit that article. This is particularly true of users who are working with the OTRS system to resolve sensitive problems. FCYTravis (talk) 07:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- He should have quoted the OTRS number in the block logs. Carcharoth (talk) 08:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, that's not how it works. Starting an AfD on an article does not mean you cannot enforce policy with regards to users who edit that article. This is particularly true of users who are working with the OTRS system to resolve sensitive problems. FCYTravis (talk) 07:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Talk:Oxford Round Table shows most of those users having been editing or discussing for a consensus since at least December 2007. How could they be considered SPAs? - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 03:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- He used tools in a dispute that he was involved in. There really should be no further discussion beyond how sharp a reminder/reprimand is appropriate. Jd2718 (talk) 02:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Note that he blocked many people who agreed with him that it should be deleted. So it's hardly the egregious violation of COI that is being suggested here. Orderinchaos 02:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Excepting the three I mentioned above, the other accounts are SPAs because they were only editing that article and associated articles. To be cleared of the SPA accusation, they would need to have edited unrelated articles (thus showing they were interested in diversifying their interests), or (even better) to have edited other articles well before arriving at this article. The hallmarks of the SPAs is that they were created in December 2007 or later (after the article was created), and have only contributed to this and related articles. Blocking them indefinitely does little harm because they can re-register with another account and edit the rest of Wikipedia, while staying clear of Oxford Round Table and associated articles. In the Drstones case, his creation of the article and the resulting fuss would indicate that the account should remain blocked until the legal case is ended, or he should, like the meatpuppets, create another account (free of the taint of this incident) to edit other areas of Wikipedia. What they shouldn't do is create other accounts and go back to editing that article - let others handle that article (I think it should be a footnote in some Oxford University-related article). Carcharoth (talk) 07:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed and thanks for explaining it. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 07:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Carcharoth explains it well. Related articles include some Oxford colleges and at least one deleted article, which I'll dredge out in a bit. These are people who have brought an off-wiki fight to Wikipedia. Do we need that? I don't think so. Especially since the off-wiki fight apparently includes legal action. I am not "involved" in this dispute at all, all I have done is respond to an OTRS complaint and an article which was created and is being abused to pursue an external agenda. Next time I'll just nuke the article and leave it at that. Guy (Help!) 11:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hadn't thought of that. Nuking the article might have been better all round. It was clearly started to bring an off-wiki dispute on-wiki, and it never really recovered from that. If there needs to be any article at all, it would benefit from a clean start, though not, obviously, by the same editors. I guess I should toddle off and say that at the AfD. Carcharoth (talk) 11:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I just wanted to remind everyone involved that "disruption" was simply agreeing with Guy that the article should be deleted. I cared less about whether the article was good for wikipedia than how useful it was for academics interested in the event. And that was why I left two comments supporting Guy's suggestion that the site be deleted: the page is terrible and the controversy had ZERO influence on my decision concerning whether or not to attend the conference. For my support, I was blocked. I truly think Guy compiled a list (either by himself of with the help of others) of "known unknowns" and blocked the lot without investigating the facts of each individual case. This mirrors the very reputation-based mentality that constricts the offline publishing world. It seems your behavior might not evolve THAT differently from traditional publishing after all? As someone who reads much, edits little and talks even less, I would suggest that none of you can judge the intentions of an editor based on sporadic participation. Silence or only occasional editing might mean that someone is inclined to read more than write, something I think you would favor in at least some of your membership.Jrichardstevens (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hadn't thought of that. Nuking the article might have been better all round. It was clearly started to bring an off-wiki dispute on-wiki, and it never really recovered from that. If there needs to be any article at all, it would benefit from a clean start, though not, obviously, by the same editors. I guess I should toddle off and say that at the AfD. Carcharoth (talk) 11:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Excepting the three I mentioned above, the other accounts are SPAs because they were only editing that article and associated articles. To be cleared of the SPA accusation, they would need to have edited unrelated articles (thus showing they were interested in diversifying their interests), or (even better) to have edited other articles well before arriving at this article. The hallmarks of the SPAs is that they were created in December 2007 or later (after the article was created), and have only contributed to this and related articles. Blocking them indefinitely does little harm because they can re-register with another account and edit the rest of Wikipedia, while staying clear of Oxford Round Table and associated articles. In the Drstones case, his creation of the article and the resulting fuss would indicate that the account should remain blocked until the legal case is ended, or he should, like the meatpuppets, create another account (free of the taint of this incident) to edit other areas of Wikipedia. What they shouldn't do is create other accounts and go back to editing that article - let others handle that article (I think it should be a footnote in some Oxford University-related article). Carcharoth (talk) 07:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Guy, the only deleted articles I can find are: SMUDailyData (by Drstones) and Larry M. Buchanan (edit made by OnionClemens linking a mention of the Oxford Round Table). I can't see any smoking gun there? Carcharoth (talk) 12:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Blocking is a last resort
Ok everyone, repeat after me: Blocking is a last resort.
Even with evidence that some of these users might be meatpuppets or SPAs, that in no way is justification for these blocks. We point out these users in the AfD, and leave them messages (not warnings, but messages), and we assume good faith. Being an SPA is never a blockable offense, and being a meatpuppet is very speculative and needs to be discussed before being acted upon (and even then should not be blocked unless there continues to be a problem). If you don't like this, or think it's a pain in the butt, then don't get involved with being an admin. This is why it's a mop and not a shotgun on many admin icons. -- Ned Scott 07:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. In practice though, the SPA label is abused like you would not believe. "Disruptive SPA" is a common block log reason. I would be much happier if people said "disruptive account", and didn't try to bolster their blocking reasons with appeals to the "SPA" label. It is not listed at User:Hut 8.5/indef blocks 2 (a very interesting analysis), but I would be interested to find out how many indefinite or shorter blocks are made with "SPA" or "single purpose account" in the block log. Carcharoth (talk) 08:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The disruptive single-purpose agenda account is a well-defined and clearly extant species on Wikipedia. Being an SPA alone is not sufficient reason to block anyone, and I make absolutely no comment about these particular blocks. But "single-purpose account" plus "tendentious editing" plus "using Wikipedia as a venue for advocacy" is not an unusual combination, and frequently and appropriately leads to sanctions. A disruptive user with varied interests has more potential for reform, because they're presumably interested in the encyclopedic process on some level. A disruptive SPA is often here specifically to promote a narrow agenda, and the likelihood of them becoming constructive contributors when that agenda is stalled is commensurately lower. My point being that "Disruptive SPA", while laconic, is conceivably an appropriate block rationale assuming it's borne out by the facts. MastCell Talk 22:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- MastCell, you may be interested in the thread on AN. See the link down below (quite a long way now). Carcharoth (talk) 23:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The disruptive single-purpose agenda account is a well-defined and clearly extant species on Wikipedia. Being an SPA alone is not sufficient reason to block anyone, and I make absolutely no comment about these particular blocks. But "single-purpose account" plus "tendentious editing" plus "using Wikipedia as a venue for advocacy" is not an unusual combination, and frequently and appropriately leads to sanctions. A disruptive user with varied interests has more potential for reform, because they're presumably interested in the encyclopedic process on some level. A disruptive SPA is often here specifically to promote a narrow agenda, and the likelihood of them becoming constructive contributors when that agenda is stalled is commensurately lower. My point being that "Disruptive SPA", while laconic, is conceivably an appropriate block rationale assuming it's borne out by the facts. MastCell Talk 22:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Checkuser case
... now completed. See Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Drstones - it was pretty convoluted, but someone had to take it on - Alison ❤ 09:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. My posts below edit conflicted with you, but I'm glad to see that your check picked up MedWoman (which I'd already discovered while looking around) and some other accounts as well, and I'm glad you used the qualifier to indicate that the unrelated ones are not all SPAs, as Guy was insisting. Carcharoth (talk) 10:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think you now owe Guy an apology, Carcharoth. --Tony Sidaway 17:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think you may wish to read some of Carcharoth's later comments to Guy in the subsections below, particularly the message timed at 12:51 in the last one. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think you now owe Guy an apology, Carcharoth. --Tony Sidaway 17:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Some more points (before the blocks)
A few more points, some already stated, but getting lost above. This one is about the thoroughness of the initial blocks by JzG and the initial review/advice by Relata refaro:
- Special:Contributions/Athoughtforyou - pointed out after Guy made his list - Guy blocked but failed to put a notice on the talk page of this account.
- Some single-purpose accounts were missed, eg. Special:Contributions/MedWoman
- Special:Contributions/Coligny was never blocked - any reason for this?
- Special:Contributions/Franknfair had already been blocked - why did Guy list that account here?
Is it possible that Guy threw together a poorly compiled list of accounts without thoroughly checking them, came here to ANI to get it rubber-stamped (why do that when there was an OTRS ticket open?), that Relata refaro agreed without doing a proper review, and that Guy then went and blocked the accounts too hastily (after only three hours at ANI)? That is my reading of what happened here, and that is the reason why two accounts were caught up as collateral damage. This would have been totally unnecessary if Guy or Relata refaro had done a proper review, if Guy had quoted the OTRS ticket number in the block logs (though hopefully the two bad blocks would still have eventually been overturned), or if Guy had had the patience to wait for a whole day, instead of three hours. I think if we can all agree on that, and if Guy apologises (or provides a good reason for the two blocks in question - Jrichardstevens and Amelia9mm), then we are done here as far as the initial actions are concerned. Carcharoth (talk) 10:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps Guy could have waited longer, but if it was related to an off-wiki legal problem, it is possible that he thought the quicker the better.
- Also note, that Guy doesn't really bring things here to be "rubber-stamped". He tends to go off on his own. This is a positive development, and should be noted as such.
- Finally, I agree that my brief review of the accounts provided had at least two major and unacceptable lacunae - out of the longish list - and I will certainly do better in future. (This is not to say that I would note have suggested some other action against those particular accounts.) I do think its fair to note that at least I conducted a review beforehand, which nobody else seems to have done until it blew up. Relata refero (talk) 10:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Gee, thanks for totally dismissing other editors who did review the situation and asked for admins to intervene. Pairadox (talk) 11:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Err, twelve hours later? Perhaps I should have made it clear that I meant before the blocks. Relata refero (talk) 11:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Gee, thanks for totally dismissing other editors who did review the situation and asked for admins to intervene. Pairadox (talk) 11:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was wondering why this section was all quiet. Can we get back to agreeing (again) that actions like this should not normally be taken after only three hours and the input of only two other editors? Carcharoth (talk) 23:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Some more points (after the blocks)
A few more points, some already stated, but getting lost above. This one is about whether the later review process (this ANI thread after the blocks had been placed) and the response to the unblock templates:
- Initial ANI reaction after the blocks - Concerns about the mass block started trickling in four hours after the blocks were placed. Pairadox said he had filed a suspected sockpuppetry case, while B seems to have responded to an unblock request from Jrichardstevens. Around 24 hours later, two accounts (Jrichardstevens and Nomoskedasticity, who both filed unblock templates) had been unblocked, so the system seems to have worked there.
- Successful use of the unblock template - Two editors have posted to their talk page objecting to their block, but not using the unblock request template. This may be a common mistake made by new editors who get blocked, and it didn't help that Guy left terse notes, rather than a template that would have pointed people to the "unblock" template. Have a look at Mediawiki:Blockedtext and see how long it is! I sometimes wonder how many people even bother reading all that? Anyway, the two editors are: Academic38 and Slintfan. I have left notes on their talk pages - can someone please make sure they don't get forgotten about.
- Unblock request declined - Amelia9mm filed an unblock template, but the request was initially declined by Trusilver. I still believe that Trusilver failed to perform an independent review here, and that he should state here how he will improve his handling of unblock requests.
- Later responses - I raised my concerns above, and this led to Amelia9mm being unblocked. Both Amelia9mm and Jrichardstevens are now being welcomed with templates and encouraged to continue to participate in Wikipedia. Hopefully this will overcome any lingering ill-feeling from Guy's blocks.
- Later ANI opinions - Some editors support this entire review and the unblockings so far. Some still continue to object (with some also supporting the unblocking) and say that what Guy did was OK. It is clear to me that the unblocks themselves show that Guy was too hasty to block in those cases. I think this is a problem, and I think it would be appreciated if Guy said something here at some point, and if he could apologise to those two accounts as well.
- Guy's responses - I'm concerned at Guy's defensiveness over questioning of his blocks, and some people not being critical enough and going "oh, I trust his judgment". When someone asks for a review, we need to actually review it, and not just rubber-stamp it. Guy's defensiveness and insistence that these were all single-purpose accounts, can be seen in the following:
- Concerning Jrichardstevens: "These are all single purpose accounts with an agenda of either promoting or knocking a marginally notable company. We can do without them. All of them." (he said this despite being told that Jrichardstevens was not an SPA)
- Concerning Nomoskedasticity: "Fine, unblock that user then. The rest can stay blocked, at least until the deletion debate is finished, and forever if the article is kept. They are bringing an off-wiki dispute to Wikipedia, and that is all they are doing. We simply don't need that." (this is stange actually, as if Guy was being consistent, he should have insisted that Nomoskedasticity remain blocked - but more worrying is that Guy is still failing to recognise that he is being clearly told that he has wrongly labelled accounts as SPAs)
- Concerning Amelia9mm: "A group of people have brought an off-wiki dispute to Wikipedia, this dispute includes real-world legal action and has prompted complaints to the Foundation. This user is one of a group of single purpose accounts with no history outside this subject. I blocked the lot." (this shows Guy parotting his stock response to the whole blocks, even when told that an individual review had been requested - no inclination shown by Guy to take another look, or to even consider that he might have been wrong, and still saying "no history outside this subject" - when that is patently false in this case)
- Respect for Guy from Stifle: "I have high respect for you and I just wanted to run it by you before unblocking in case there is something else I should know" (I agree that Guy does good and necessary work, but I would plead with other editors and admins not to show too much respect to anyone - we can all make mistakes, and even if someone is convinced they are right, they may still be wrong - a combination of too much respect and trust in another admin's judgment, rather than one's own judgment, is what I think led Trusilver to decline the Amelia9mm unblock request)
- Independence of unblock request reviewers - I am still deeply concerned that the unblock request system failed Amelia9mm. Trusilver was correct to check with JzG to see if there was anything else going on, but a combination of JzG's refusal to admit that he had included some non-SPAs in his batch of blocks, and Trusilver saying to Amelia that her edit history looked OK but not saying this to Guy, led to the most hideously unfair block decline that I have ever seen.
- General thoughts - And I should probably say something about my response to all this. Firstly, I was trying to take a wikibreak when this all sucked me back in, and that explains why I spent most of yesterday sending people e-mails and not posting on-wiki. After I gave that up as a lost cause, I posted all this and the preceding stuff. To forestall criticisms of how I've responded to all this (or maybe it will encourage such criticisms, I don't know, but I should be the last to object to any criticisms people make of me), I will state openly that I am hypersensitive to incidents like this. See Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Matthew Hoffman for an example (and I'm saddened to see how that is ending). I am also aware of Guy's present circumstances (having left two posts to him about that, which I hope were of some comfort to him), and I have asked one of the blocked people concerned to be nice to Guy. My concern here is addressing the ingrained culture that sees blocks like this as acceptable collateral damage. I made a similar long set of posts about the conduct of Betacommand and East718 over the recent Main Page deletion/merge incident. See here for how I handled that. I feel that a thorough and systematic handling of incidents like this helps to resolve them properly, make clear what lessons need to be learned, and help the admin corps as a whole improve their conduct. But this can only work if admins accept that they will, ocassionally, be criticised like this, and accept it with good grace, instead of taking it personally.
And hopefully that will be enough, and lessons will be learned. Carcharoth (talk) 10:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hi just to say that editors/admins looking at an AfD can spot a Single Purpose Account or one with few edits, in fact people thinking an account is one can label it as such on an AfD. I personally signed up to wiki to participate in an AfD, and here I am well over 2000 edits and two years on! So these accounts definitely shouldn't be indef blocked- not any of them that haven't been shown to be doing anything dodgy by the checkuser. Any indef blocks involved in this, and the user not shown as a wrong'un in the checkuser, should be lessened. Not just the individual ones that people 'like' and protest over here at ANI. As to Guy, I am sorry for his loss, but let's be honest, there's nothing new or particularly unusual in any of his recent behaviour on wiki, we've seen incidences similar to all of it before from him. Merkinsmum 12:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, Carcharoth, for doing good work here, the emails did get through but I was at choir rehearsal all day and at a company dinner in the evening yesterday. Note that Nomoskedasticity came up as likely in the sockpuppet check, but let's not worry too much about that. I defend my block of the numerous accounts that turned out to be socks, and the balance that are SPAs, but will be more wary in future to keep the definition of single purpose rather more focused. What was, in my view, important here was to rebuff the attempt to bring a litigious off-wiki dispute into Wikipedia. The blocks of confirmed socks below shows that there was indeed a problem, and we really do not need people bringing their battles here. Guy (Help!) 12:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the calm response Guy. I was worried what your reaction might be on finding this massive thread here! :-) I saw the Nomoskedasticity result as well, but as you say, not too much to worry about as long as they keep on the straight and narrow from now on. Would you agree with Merkinsmum above that any non-sock SPAs can be unblocked? Say, after the AfD is finished? I agree entirely that off-wiki disputes need to be kept off Wikipedia with extreme prejudice, but do you think you could give your opinion on the other points I raised above? Would you consider using a standard block template so that those who are blocked get more information on how to appeal? Would you consider waiting longer next time to allow for more opinion at ANI? Would you consider taking the time to look further into any objections the next time someone comes to you saying that someone has requested an unblock and they have concerns? Final thought: do you have any opinon on Trusilver declining that unblock request? Carcharoth (talk) 13:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sadly, I think Guy and I were in complete agreement on this point (not about the puppets, but about the useless utility and divisiveness of the "controversy" element). It sounds like Guy had a lot of distraction. Perhaps he wasn't in a position to read closely enough to determine which of us were disruptive and which were trying to follow the rules of his invitation? It happens to the best of us. I just hope incidents like these raise awareness that more checks and balance and monitoring of each others' decisions may be warranted. Carcharoth has gone above and beyond the call of duty here. If he were not trying to raise these issues, I would certainly be gone from this community and be torching the lot of you in my media classroom (which would be erroneous on my part). Jrichardstevens (talk) 15:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Noting here that there has been a response from Amelia9mm. I would urge everyone to take the time to read what she has written here. In my opinion, it is pure gold dust and a breath of fresh air that may hopefully open up some people's eyes to how difficult Wikipedia can be for those who haven't figured out yet how things work around here. A brief sample: "For most new users, wikipedia and its "administration" and lingo [What is a sleepersock?] are like being in a maze with no idea what the maze looks like and no idea if it's worthwhile to bother finding out. Thus, many are just sporadic users who come looking for information on a topic and see they can contribute a bit, and do that and not much else." I'll be quoting this in full over on the AN thread. Carcharoth (talk) 23:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Summary of account activity
From Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Drstones (thanks Alison):
Confirmed -
- Billingsworth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Apprec8coetzee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Aristotle13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Iluvjimmyc1010 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- MedWoman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmed -
- Franknfair (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Obscuredata (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Tepid1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- LAstride (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- InformationKey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Likely -
- Academic2007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Drstones (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - virtually all edits are to Oxford Round Table
- Academic38 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - all mainspace edits are to Oxford Round Table
- Amelia9mm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - probably a misjudgement, very few edits and those to Oxford Round Table are not good, but one or two contributions to other articles. I have apologised.
- OrionClemens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - all mainspace edits are to Oxford Round Table
- Coligny (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - all mainspace edits are to Oxford Round Table
- Slintfan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - no mainspace edits, all edits are to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oxford Round Table
- Jrichardstevens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - a mistake, for which I apologise.
- Athoughtforyou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - - no mainspace edits, all edits are to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oxford Round Table
- OTRS tickets:
- VRTS ticket # 2007122010015911
- VRTS ticket # 2008012410015146
- VRTS ticket # 2008020810013417
I know that Jrichardstevens is unblocked, I believe some of the socks are also unblocked but I will not reblock them, I'll leave that to someone else. Are we done now? Guy (Help!) 12:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- There would have been less drama if this had been set to checkuser or suspected sock puppets before anybody was blocked. SPAs at AfD can be tagged with {{SPA}} so that the closing administrator can give them proper weight. We can block more sock puppets with fewer "false positives" by presenting the evidence, waiting for independent review, and then taking the necessary action. Jehochman Talk 12:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Some of them were reported at suspected sock puppets (it didn't qualify for checkuser), but there was absolutely no input from anybody else until after the blocking was done and this had become a big conflagration. Geez, you follow the procedures and nobody notices or cares... Pairadox (talk) 23:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Guy, thanks for providing the OTRS ticket numbers, and thanks for apologising to both Jrichardstevens and Amelia99m for their blocks. Given that you have apologised, it doesn't matter much, but I would still object to your "probably a misjudgement" statement about Amelia9mm - do you have any evidence that you aren't sharing with us? Because to my eyes that account looks totally uninvolved. I don't see the problems with the two edits Amelia9mm made: this edit and this edit. How are they "not good" in the context of the dispute that erupted later? Do you mean "not good" as in not doing much at all, or "not good" as in they were a vicious attack on someone or something? That's a rhetorical question, of course. But in the context of this discussion, a bland statement like "not good" can be misinterpreted. I would say "totally a misjudgment" and "the account remains in good standing and should do well with guidance". But then your apology shows that you probably agree with that. I am going to write something else below on sleeper socks, SPAs and new editors - but please, don't assume that accounts with very few edits spread over several years are automatically suspicious. I would say block the socks, but engage with the people behind the accounts (many of whom are academics) and encourage them to create new accounts and continue to contribute, provided they stay away from the article in question and don't add stuff about it to other articles. At the moment, only two of the accounts that are still blocked are appealing their blocks: Academic38 and Slintfan. They are questioning their blocks on their talk pages - maybe you (Guy) could go and talk to them, seeing as you forgot to leave a note telling them they could use the unblock template? One other loose end: Coligny never got blocked. Any reason why not? Carcharoth (talk) 12:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- A couple of comments from someone who was caught up in the collective blocks (and now, obviously, unblocked). First, I am not involved in sockpuppets - see my comments on the Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Drstones page for my response to the "likely" finding. Second, though I realize many people find this ORT business troublesome in the large, it seems that no effort was made to look at actual edit behaviour, at least in my case. I recognize that this would be time-consuming. In my case, what it would have shown is a continuing effort to learn and play by the rules. I got a COI tag on my talk page - and from that point on I didn't make a single edit to the article, only worked on the talk page to suggest changes and to try to secure consensus. A review by Sandstein confirmed that my edit behaviour was not disruptive.
- As for SPA, as the information page on SPA notes, new users typically start out working on what interests them, and then some diversify. I'm glad to see recognition of that here, and of the advice to welcome newcomers. Look, I've been unblocked (thank you Sandstein, and thank you Guy for agreeing to it), so as far as I'm concerned it has all been resolved fairly quickly. It was not pleasant to be blocked after trying to play by the rules (and particularly without the blocking admin first warning me on my talk page about allegedly inappropriate editing) - so I do hope a different approach can prevail. But it is reassuring to see all of get reviewed like this. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Loose ends
There are still some loose ends here. If I miss any, please add in this section.
- JzG has now blocked the two extra sockpuppets that the checkuser found.
- The talk pages of the non-sock accounts need checking - some people are querying the blocks (I make it three so far - User talk:Drstones, User talk:Academic38, and User talk:Slintfan) - per Merkinsmum, I'd be inclined to unblock any non-sock editors that request it, but per Guy to wait until the AfD is finished. The response by Drstones is particularly encouraging.
- I hope that Guy (and Trusilver if he is reading this) will respond to the points I raised here.
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Sporadic editors, sleeper socks, and single-purpose accounts (follow-up thread)
- User talk:Carcharoth#JzG (in case anyone other than Tony Sidaway is interested in following up)
That should be it. Carcharoth (talk) 20:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd be inclined to unblock any non-sock editors that request it, but per Guy to wait until the AfD is finished.
- Why wait until the AfD is finished? If they aren't socks, unbound them. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 20:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You may be right. My point here is that, as I've being trying to tell Tony Sidaway, is that it was mainly the three non-SPA blocks that I was reviewing. The other blocks, given the OTRS tickets on the article, I'd be happier letting Guy deal with those. Preferably now, but he (and others) have the full OTRS details. I have noted Drstones saying that he would prefer to see the article deleted (he was the original creator). See his comments here, here and here. What I will say, is that Guy's "shock and awe" approach does seem to have knocked sense into the people that were legitimate targets of his blocks. Carcharoth (talk) 20:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm also surprised that the non-socks haven't all been unblocked yet. From what I can tell the OTRS tickets have nothing to do with sensitive information, and were simply e-mails that pointed out the connection with an off-wiki forum, which isn't a violation of any of our policies. They didn't even all agree on that forum, and getting outside opinions is healthy for Wikipedia. There's no reason for any of the non-socks to still be blocked. -- Ned Scott 23:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Wiki Raja
Well, in short what I am going to write here will look like one of the sections above 3RR violator continuing after block. But it is much more than that. Wiki Raja (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) was recently blocked for 2 weeks for 3RR violation on Talk:Bharatanatyam; disruptive edit warring over project templates again. This block was imposed on him, after a previous block on 72 hours for disruptive edit warring. After this block, the user was clearly advised by the block admin like this:
“ | I have blocked you for 72 hours because I find your behavior to be disruptive. I know there is a disagreement over the template on the article talk pages, but given that you are in a David vs. Goliath scenario, it would be best if you discuss, instead of blanket reverting. If you continue reverting, what good is that going to do? Do you honestly think that the other editors will suddenly give up and stop reverting you? The matter, like any dispute, cannot be resolved by continuous revert warring. Discussion is the only way you can move forward over this matter. The duration of your block is 72 hours because you had a 3RR block just four days ago, and yet it seems you continued the edit warring just as soon as you got off the block. I hope you come back from the block eager and willing to get involved in a serious discussion with the editors you are in disagreement with. | ” |
This advise apparently did not have any effect on the user, and hence again, the user's repeated revert wars, without discussions or without gaining consensus, led to him to the above mentioned 2 weeks block. The block is now expired, and the user immediately started posting the disputed template literally hundreds of article talk page (Eg: [37], [38], [39]). At the least, after multiple blocks related to that template, the user was expected to start a discussion with wider audience, and should have arrived at a consensus before using those templates. But unfortunately, that has not happened.
Even he doesn't even hesitate to involve in revert wars, after being blocked multiple times for revert warring; some of the latest revert wars being: [40], [41], [42].
The main concerns here are: Lack of willingness to discuss; revert-warring; repeated offense even after a clear and strong advise from an Admin, and yet after multiple blocks;
Well,now, thats the "3RR violator continuing after block" part of the story, and next comes more. Severe personal attack on me, calling me racist. Please look into the section: Talk:Veerappan#Removing_WikiProject_templates and that gives complete picture instead of me writing about it. And now, you admins decide if there is any racist attitude displayed from me. On the other hand, you decide how the discussion is totally dragged out of context when I asked the question how the person (of that article) is related to the so-called civilization. I am strongly offended with this personal attack.
Next: I am totally confused and wondered, with what this user's intent on Wikipedia are. Please see this edit which is made after his latest block expiry. He has gone ahead and termed Cinema of Karnataka as Cooliewood. I have never heard that term before, and I am a member of Karnataka wikiproject and a contributor to Cinema of Karnataka. This is most concerning issue because, one of the meanings of Coolie is A contemporary racial slur for people of Asian descent, including people from India, Central Asia, etc. Whats more, even Google search couldn't determine what this user is saying. For starters, Karnataka is an Indian state, and apparently this is a severe insult on Wikipedians from that state, and ofcourse on the state's film industry. This kind of gross incivility is highly unacceptable in a community project such as building an encyclopedia.
I have reported all these to an involved Admin User:Nishkid64 and he suggested I start an ANI discussion on this, and here it goes. Thank you, - KNM Talk 17:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- A couple of things:
- The "Cooliewood" diff is absolutely unacceptable. The Tamil film industry is sometimes called Kollywood, but I cannot believe that this was a genuine mistake.
- Templating talkpages is always problematic. I remember the to-do about India-Pakistan templates on Indus Valley Civilisation sites some years ago. That being said, there is nothing per se wrong with templating [[Talk:Veerappan] with a Tamil or Dravidian wikiproject template. The exchange that KNM posts reflects badly on both users.
- He's been blocked for edit-warring for two weeks. I suggest that he be given a little while longer for the "Cooliewood" diff unless he posts a good explanation for it.
- I don't see any reason for an indef. Relata refero (talk) 18:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, that template has been the centre of much controversy in the first place. The Cooliewood slur has a lot to do with Wikiraj's failed attempts in the past to sell the whole of South India and everything existing in South India as Dravidian (music, literature, architecture, people, cuisine, clothing, etc etc) as "Dravidian civilization". A page he had creeated to that effect was removed because there was no concensus that such a civilization existed or exists. Unles the heart of the issue is resolved, this problem will continue. The racial slur is only a small issue in the big problem of "race". Extending his block will not help. And may I ask, what does a dravidian template have to do with a person?.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 18:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Reply to Relata refero: In the original post, I have not written about why there is a dispute over these templating, because it is plain content dispute, and WP:ANI is not meant for that. That is why, I was just writing only user related items. But if the discussion on template dispute is required, well and good. The simplest summary is, Wiki Raja is posting {{WPTAMCIV}} template on hundreds of talk pages, while there is no such thing called Tamil Civilization! The current link of Tamil civilization just redirects to Dravidian civilization, while Tamil Civilization is a red link as of now. And the user was (and has continued now also) posting {{WPDRAVCIV}} template too referring to an earlier version of Dravidian civilization article which is now deleted.
- Please note: The current article was created by an admin (User:Utcursch) after the earlier version was deleted per an AFD discussion, because there was no such particular civilization "Dravidian civilization" existed. The validity of these templates apart, the user was asked and advised (as shown above) for initiating discussion and gain consensus before simply adding the templates. I believe, now its a good time to sort out both these issues, one is content dispute on those templates, and the user misconduct and incivility. Thank you - KNM Talk 18:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I quite understand that the template issue is beyond this board. The template, however, is linked not to any article but to a wikiproject; if you feel that is problematic, I suggest taking it to WP:Miscellany for Deletion. Relata refero (talk) 19:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Relata, I'm sorry but I didn't quite understand what you are referring to as "unacceptable" in Cooliewood diff, whether it's providing the diff itself or Wikiraja's edits. There is no doubt that Wikiraja made that edit meant as an insult to Kannada film industry due to his long lasting disputes with members of WP:KARNATAKA. It sure is an racial insult term and it hurts to see someone using the term so freely in an encyclopedia. I'm sure he used the term deliberately because there is not even one instance so far that the Kannada cinema industry is referred to as Cooliewood. He has clearly shown his intentions of editing Wikipedia after being given so many chances. No discussions, no consensus, severe personal attacks including accusations of racism on KNM, gross incivility, repeated violations of 3RR and frequent revert wars. Let us also not forget, the account User:Wiki Raja is a sockpuppet account of User:Indrancroos. User:Wiki Raja account was indef blocked because of sockpuppetry, but the user requested admin Aksi_great that, he intends to continue with Wiki Raja account instead of Indrancroos account. Blocklog here. Gnanapiti (talk) 18:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I meant that using the term was unacceptable, which is why I suggested extending his block. Relata refero (talk) 19:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
*sigh* How many more violations from wikiraja do we have to endure before he is packed off for good? I've been on wp for around two years now and I've not seen anything quite like this. Here's a guy who's been blocked multiple times already for repeat offences which cover the entire gamut between simple edit warring to sockpuppetry to uploading obscenity and yet his victims have to continue to grin and bear it. I'd really like to know why?
Personally, I am usually against permabanning editors for anything.. but there has to be something that can redeem an editor -- some useful contributions, some evidence of being a collaborative editor.. something... anything! In wikiraja's case, I see nothing - absolutely no contributions worth mentioning or to even use as a fig leaf for his indiscretions.
As for his templates and taking it to MfD, well.. we've been down that torturous path before. No sooner does a template or article get deleted (or rewritten from scratch) than he comes up with a mutant strain of the same thing! It was 'Dravidian civilisations' yesterday and 'Tamil civilisations' today. Wonder what it will be tommorrow. Expecting other editors to keep hauling him and his templates to TfDs and MfDs and AfDs each time is insensitive and an insult to those editors who have better things to do on wikipedia. And the cooliewood thing ... *sigh* how much more juvenile can it get!
In short, this editor has not a semblance of constructive edits to boast of and has done disproportionately more harm to the community and the project than good and the community is better off without him. He's been banned for 3 month stretches at least once before (perhaps twice) and if for some esoteric bureaucratic reason we cant permaban him, I recommend that he be locked away for atleast 6 months or a year this time. Sarvagnya 22:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment: As per Relata refero's suggestion for me to explain, I shall. Since the beginning of WikiProject Dravidian civilizations we have tried to present a diverse array of Dravidian cultures such as the Tamils, Malayalees, Telugus, Kannadigas, Brahuis and so forth. Even before the formation of this WikiProject I have noticed on the Classical dance of India page that classical dances from three Dravidian states were presented accept for Karnataka. Finding this rather odd, I have went out of my way to create a page for Yakshagana which was praised by Gnanapiti here and here just to find out that there already existed such a page. As a matter of fact I have tried my best to promote all Dravidian groups here on Wikipedia by even creating special user templates such as these, and include the different Dravidian scripts on the WikiProject page here (ie. Kannada, Malayalam, Telugu, Tamil). Why on earth would anyone think that I have something against Kannadigas? For everyone's information, I have been able to find Mollywood for Malayalee films, Tollywood for Telugu films, and Kollywood for Tamil films. However, with the same situation as with the Classical dance, I was unable to find a similar name for Kannada films. So, the name Cooliewood was found from this web site and thus, I have used that term to categorize Kannada film along with the other "Dravidian woods" for film. If I have offended anyone on this matter, I humbly apologize for the misinterpretation and misunderstaning this may have caused for some folks. As a habit I like things in order and complete and thus felt that Kannadiga topics such as film and dance should not be left out of Indian, Dravidian, or whatever topic. As a token of sincerity from my part I will remove the link from that page and will rename it to Kannada film. If anyone still has a grudge against me, then that is on you. I've already said my piece. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would agree with Sarvagnya here. When Wiki Raja states that he has been promoting "Dravidian culture" that is the onus of the problem. What is "Dravidian" and "Indo-Aryan" is obviously disputed. Dravidianism is generally a racist philosophy, terming North Indians and Brahmins as "invaders" and "Dravidians" as "victims of light skinned oppression" (in quotes for educational value). A very important string of edits got Wiki Raja's sockpuppet Indrancroos (talk · contribs) blocked a while ago [43]. This edit is indicative (Images of Feces, Fat people, and God knows what else being plastered on a martial arts page) of Wiki Raja's attitude towards the pages he edits.Bakaman 20:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- FYI: I was new to Wikipedia almost 2 years ago. However, after being blocked I created a new name to start new on a clean slate to edit and created legitimate articles as a contribution to Wikipedia. Proof can be seen in two WikiProjects, several articles, and expansions of numerous articles. Our project focuses on promoting articles comprised of all Dravidians (Tamils, Malayalees, Kannadigas, Telugus and other groups not properly represented). Other groups include but are not limited to Tuluvas, and Brahuis, for example. As a matter of fact, I have also voted to keep the article on Brahmin Tamils here since Brahmins are a part of the Tamil civilization, while Tamil civilization is part of the greater Dravidian civilzations. If you disagree with some of the articles, you are clearly entitled to your opinions. Also, it is not nice to compare fat people with feces. What do you have against fat people? Wiki Raja (talk) 02:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- No one compared fat people with feces. Bakasupraman just commented that you added picture of feces and fat people on an article about Indian martial arts. Don't try to provoke people by making unfounded statements. Nishkid64 (talk) 04:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I'm not trying to provoke people. It clearly shows that Bakaman stated "This edit is indicative (Images of Feces, Fat people, and God knows what else being plastered on a martial arts page)". It's posted right in this section. Wiki Raja (talk) 05:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Attempting to stir up others with this post was completely uncool. I have reverted it.--Versageek 05:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I thought it was uncool to compare fat people with feces. That's why I posted it. If you took it wrongly, I apologize. Regards. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Attempting to stir up others with this post was completely uncool. I have reverted it.--Versageek 05:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I'm not trying to provoke people. It clearly shows that Bakaman stated "This edit is indicative (Images of Feces, Fat people, and God knows what else being plastered on a martial arts page)". It's posted right in this section. Wiki Raja (talk) 05:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- No one compared fat people with feces. Bakasupraman just commented that you added picture of feces and fat people on an article about Indian martial arts. Don't try to provoke people by making unfounded statements. Nishkid64 (talk) 04:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- FYI: I was new to Wikipedia almost 2 years ago. However, after being blocked I created a new name to start new on a clean slate to edit and created legitimate articles as a contribution to Wikipedia. Proof can be seen in two WikiProjects, several articles, and expansions of numerous articles. Our project focuses on promoting articles comprised of all Dravidians (Tamils, Malayalees, Kannadigas, Telugus and other groups not properly represented). Other groups include but are not limited to Tuluvas, and Brahuis, for example. As a matter of fact, I have also voted to keep the article on Brahmin Tamils here since Brahmins are a part of the Tamil civilization, while Tamil civilization is part of the greater Dravidian civilzations. If you disagree with some of the articles, you are clearly entitled to your opinions. Also, it is not nice to compare fat people with feces. What do you have against fat people? Wiki Raja (talk) 02:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Although such a comparison was NOT made, for argument's sake, if it was, what you wrote on the talk page of that article had a clear aim of trying to instigate something very unnecessary. As you've been a member of Wikipedia for the past 2 years, you should have known that this is not the way you should have gone about dealing with it.
As the main member of the WikiProject India Assessment Team, and as an editor/reviewer, I also request that Wiki Raja be blocked for an extended period of time of at least 6 - 12 months, if not greater. Editors who persistently make disruptive edits and comments in Wikipedia and in effect, disregard Wikipedia's policies and procedures, clearly should not be allowed to edit in Wikipedia. In this case, his limited constructive contributions (if any at all), combined with the extremely inappropriate way in which this editor has behaved (during this process in which an incident about him was being reported), has heightened the need for this extended/permanent block/ban. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Persistently making disruptive edits? Are you talking about our WikiProjects Dravidian civilizations and Tamil civilization? Show me where I have been persistently been making disruptive edits in the past month. What does WikiProject India Assessment Team have to do with this? The bottom line is that there are folks out there who are hell bent on bending historical truths in order to satisfy their revisionist lust. With that said, it is not surprising why we come under attack to the utmost for merely breathing on Wikipedia. Wiki Raja (talk) 21:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)Whoa! this web site??? I wonder, does Wiki Raja ever seen WP:RS policy page and if yes, being an editor of Wikipedia for nearly 2 years, does he have any respect to it? Among billions of books, newspapers, journals, websites, this is the webpage he chooses to select the name of a state's film industry, the page which doesn't even appear in google search for "Cooliewood", and a page anyone, anytime can create without any credentials, any verification. Does he think WP:RS, WP:V policies are just for fun? Does he even know, that page could have got created after he gave the name "Cooliewood" to the Cinema of Karnataka? By apologizing here in ANI and reverting that particular edit, does he assume we can get away from it? One cannot expect other editors to watch each and every edit of his, and when a problem is found, "just revert it and apoligize" is NOT a solution. There are thousands of edits, and it is editor's responsibility to work/edit correctly and constructively all the time, and not just after the misconduct is made public in ANI. Provocation / Forum Shopping are not at all the good way to handle the disputes. He has done this time and again, and the latest provocation (mentioned above in this very thread) is just one more part of his disruptive contributions to the project. As Ncmvocalist as mentioned above, Wiki Raja's disregard to Wikipedia's policies and procedures are highly unacceptable, that too after repeated warnings and multiple blocks. As I mentioned above, for a user whose block is just expired, the least expected is to initiate a discussion instead of involving in the same offense of revert war that fetched him block. Repeated offenses of revert warring, disruptive editing, severe personal attacks including allegations on racism , totally unnecessary and harmful provocations and forum shopping...the list goes on and on. This has been happening since a long time now, and it has adverse effects on the Wikipedia and other editors' productivity and thus needs be addressed as early as possible. We just cannot let go forever. After a block, some maturity is expected from the editor's part. But even after multiple blocks, we are back to square. Time for indef block. - KNM Talk 21:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Allegations of racism. That's a good one KNM. Would anyone consider this racist:[44] Would anyone consider these attacks and threats against me by your group:[45]. Enough with this nonsensical piety. This is just a drop in the bucket with their numerous personal attacks against my ethnicity and self. Also to mention the number of blanking, and blind reverts on their part. However, I have made a mistake by responding to these types of editors which make matters worse. I will admit that and am very sorry for even giving them the time of day to hear a response from me. I appologize to anyone else if this matter has caused anyone an inconvenience. Responding to trolls, socks, and other trouble makers does not make things better. I have learned from that mistake and shall go about this in a more appropriate way. Thank you. Wiki Raja (talk) 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Do not try to mislead people by providing giving an irrelevant diff for my complaint on your racism allegations. As indicated in my original post in this thread, I was referring to this personal attack] you have made on me. - KNM Talk 22:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I too propose an indef block of Wiki Raja. I feel this user has only one purpose on wikipedia, and that is to template every South Indian article with his "dravidian civilization" template. In addition, he has prepared other templates now such as the "Tamil civilization" etc, though I am not sure what actually is "Tamil civilization". Those who come to wikipedia with a "mind" will contribute constructively, those who come with a "mindset" will only be an obstruction to others. After one year of interaction with this user, I feel he is not interested in achieving concensus on any of his pet issues, all of which revolve around the "Dravidian race". The very fact he does not bother to get concensus is because he knows he will not get it. His current excuse of using a web page to justify using "cooliewood" is only an alibi. Here is why. Let us take the example of the Yakshagana art form, an ancient form of religious/folk theatre from the Kannada speaking regions. Initially he tried to establish that it was a dravidian art from. When he could not get concensus, he tried to demean it by adding a transgender template, because in this theatre, men can wear feminine costumes while performing theatre. Here are some links to this.[46] and [47]. Also read his justification on the discussion page of that very article under the heading "LGBT template & Homophobia on Yakshagana" where he finds a convinient alibi for his actions.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- So, now gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals, and transgenders are demeaning? This conversation is beginning to make me sick with all this intolerance of peoples race, ethnicity, faith, bodily structure, and now sexual orientation. Some people think that they own this site turning Wikipedia into an un-democratic dictatoral web page to nurture racists, bullies, and homophobes. I am through with this conversation and feeding trolls. Also, one more thing, due to folks who may not be aware of what discrimination is, please read this this. Thank you. Wiki Raja (talk) 22:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- And yet again!! Whom are you calling trolls now?? I request all the admins to please look into this ongoing breaches of multiple of wiki-policies, this time it is WP:NPA. This editor's incivility is going beyond control. - KNM Talk 22:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- WikiRaja, please dont misrepresent what I wrote earlier. Yakshagana is a performing art and topics such as this should have been treated with more deliberation and care. Thats all. Any irrelevant template would naturally misguide a reader and hence is be "demeaning". This is what I meant. If you really wanted to improve the quality of that article, you should have first involved yourself in a constructive discussion, before adding that template. You however added that template after your failed in your attempts in templating that art form as "dravidian".
And please dont try to digress from the topic at hand and divert attention from the main issues.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 23:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
This AfD has turned horribly uncivil. I will admit I am a party to this and do not have clean hands. I believe an admin needs to step in and mediate. Thank you. Bstone (talk) 19:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oh dear! What would the good rabbi think of such violence?
- Seriously, though, nobody's said anything particularly blockworthy yet, you all need to calm down, that's all. You bit a newbie, and three people accused you of lying. Bad, but not terrible. Take a break, the AfD has some time to run, everybody will calm down. Relata refero (talk) 20:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
2 years, 9 months and 19 days on wikipedia and I am a newbie?The three who accused me of "lying" are all of the same opinion so it's not uncommon to see these sorts of tactics. I believe an uninvolved admins mediation is important in order to reinstate civility. Bstone (talk) 20:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)- I believe he said you bit a newbie, not that you are one. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I tagged it after discussion in IRC. 5 days and just a few edits seemed like not enough. However the reaction has been a bit visceral. Bstone (talk) 20:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've read through your comments there, I actually do agree with your application of the spa tag as appropriate. You have to agree that it is easily perceived as bitey though. Ok, you don't have to agree to anything, poorly stated. I 'hope you agree that it could possibly, even easily, be perceived as bitey though. I agree that the debate there is on the warmer side, but not nearly as warm as I've seen it before. I would recommend dispassion. In my experience (which is far less than yours Bstone so please don't take this as condescending, but rather with a grain of salt) is that not replying to every comment that is in opposition to your own opinion is a better way to go. You've made your point there. Others have made there points there. Let the closing admin weigh the discussion against the policies and guidelines. It'll be closed in 2-5 days, (if it stays the way it is now, probably as no consensus), and we can all just move along nicely. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I tagged it after discussion in IRC. 5 days and just a few edits seemed like not enough. However the reaction has been a bit visceral. Bstone (talk) 20:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I believe he said you bit a newbie, not that you are one. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, it is bitey. But it is also an official wiki tag and uses official wiki wording. If there was a different tag with nicer wording I would have certainly used it. I don't mean to come across rude but adding SPA does have a certain tone with it. Now they are saying I am lying and I assume that's in reference to discussing it with folks (including some admins) in IRC before adding it. I can ask those folks (including the admins) to chime in here in order to verify that I did indeed discuss which tag is appropriate. I believe that I have been neutral in terms of my tone while those who have stated I am a liar have been just the opposite. As far as responding to the opinions of keep, I am desperate to know how people can opine keep when I cite several wiki policies which indicate the basis for their opinion is indeed mute. As of yet none has responded which leads me to believe there is little to respond to. Still, my tone has been neutral and the bite came from the wording which I had absolutely no control over. However, stating I am a liar is tactless and against etiquette. Bstone (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sure you noticed I added a couple of wiki tags myself to the AfD discussion. I hate the spa tag, but it was placed appropriately. I think a better tag
couldshould exist, but doesn't. What I'll usually do personally is just right a message on the editor's talkpage first (without any templates at all, which are impersonal to say the least). I'll keep watching the AfD, if anyone gets further out of line after the "be nice" and "not a vote" tags, I'll act appropriately (warns, strong warns, or immediate blocks for harassment (though unlikely)). I don't think it will be a problem though, it seems to have calmed a bit in the last couple of hours....Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)- I am taking a wikibreak for the next day or so. Perhaps a quick note on the talk pages of those screaming I am a liar about tone and tact? Bstone (talk) 21:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- My two cents. This is a good idea to take a break. When Bstone questions every single voter who disagrees with him/her, that does not create a constructive environment. An example of this tone was set by Bstone's comments when s/he stated, "I am simply setting the record straight where people err." By not responding to each vote in favor of the article, or at least by not responding like this, then the tone of the discussion can become more constructive. Let's all take a break from this and let other people have their say and their response. Culturalrevival (talk) 21:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I am taking a wikibreak for the next day or so. Perhaps a quick note on the talk pages of those screaming I am a liar about tone and tact? Bstone (talk) 21:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sure you noticed I added a couple of wiki tags myself to the AfD discussion. I hate the spa tag, but it was placed appropriately. I think a better tag
- I agree, it is bitey. But it is also an official wiki tag and uses official wiki wording. If there was a different tag with nicer wording I would have certainly used it. I don't mean to come across rude but adding SPA does have a certain tone with it. Now they are saying I am lying and I assume that's in reference to discussing it with folks (including some admins) in IRC before adding it. I can ask those folks (including the admins) to chime in here in order to verify that I did indeed discuss which tag is appropriate. I believe that I have been neutral in terms of my tone while those who have stated I am a liar have been just the opposite. As far as responding to the opinions of keep, I am desperate to know how people can opine keep when I cite several wiki policies which indicate the basis for their opinion is indeed mute. As of yet none has responded which leads me to believe there is little to respond to. Still, my tone has been neutral and the bite came from the wording which I had absolutely no control over. However, stating I am a liar is tactless and against etiquette. Bstone (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
(to BStone (edit conflict) ::::::::::Absolutely As soon as one of the previous commentators posts anything else there related to you, your position, your experience or in regards to this particular AfD, after seeing my template tags. (To be fair, none of them were made aware of this AN/I post so I won't be magically showing up on their talkpages either in an effort to keep drahma to a minimum). So, to resolve this, the next time something is posted....40 lashes from Keeper.. Cheers, mate, enjoy the WBreak...Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 22:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Keeper | 76 Thank you looking out for each and every editor, I appreciate your hard work at objectivity and such lack of bias. Culturalrevival (talk) 06:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
A touch of canvassing
Perhaps someone might be kind enough to have a tactful word with user:Allstarecho about canvassing, and also point out that yes we do delete biographies where the subject expresses a clear preference for not having an article, if the subject is of marginal notability (e.g. a not terribly significant musician with a part in one indie film). Guy (Help!) 21:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I assume you mean edits such as this? UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 21:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yup, that and a bundle of others; they all came along to !vote Keep. Which is fine as it goes, but as I say, canvassing is not really encouraged. Guy (Help!) 21:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like the word has been had, check his talkpage (also, I think the note was posted before this thread). Avruchtalk 22:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Let me state, for the 3rd time (2 in other places) that I was not canvassing. I was notifying people who have particpated on the articles talk page in the past. What should be reported here is that you removed content while the article is under protection and then nommed the article for deletion. And thanks for letting me know I was being discussed here. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 22:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Lets not attack the user unless need be. The edits were perfectly proper under WP:CANVAS. Lambton T/C 22:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I see no canvassing, only canvassing paranoia. I'd also like to add that there's never been consensus regarding bio subjects requesting deletion, and how much that should effect a deletion decision. It barely clings to WP:BLP because some people believe they are more qualified than others in judging issues of morals. -- Ned Scott 09:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I also see no canvassing. I came and voted keep, but nobody left a notice for me. The fact that the AfD is heading for an overwhelming keep is not due to canvassing. DGG (talk) 16:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
NPA
Re: this diff, would someone other than me tell JzG/Guy to lay off the personal attacks? Had it been me, I'd be blocked for sure. Additionally, the attack should be removed. I will give someone else plenty of time to do that before I do it myself. Thanks. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 22:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Allstar, you were incredibly rude. You were blocked by Jimbo only recently for "unrepentant incivility", and you have personalised that deletion debate to a remarkable and wholly unjustified extent; I note you've also been blocked for WP:BLP violations and edit warring. These are a bad combination. We are dealing here with an upset article subject who feels that he has been deliberately snubbed and insulted by Wikipedia. Do try to show a modicum of tact. Guy (Help!) 23:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for making sure to point out that I've been blocked by Jimbo. There is no BLP issues regarding the Bannan article. He even hosts the very same sources on his own web site. But that's not the issue here.. the issue here is your attack against me. Can you stick to the issue please? - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I think you went over the line, Guy. Please tone it down a bit.
- That said - Allstar, this is a BLP issue, and you are not showing it due WP:BLP sensitivity at the moment. It's also an OTRS issue, and on current review it appears like there's a serious problem with your behavior on both accounts. I'm going to also log this to your talk page, but this is a final warning regarding abusive behavior and this article topic. No more. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have not done one thing disruptive or in violation of policy regarding this AfD. Mind pointing out specifics? Thanks. And you threaten to block me but just tell him to "tone it down a bit" ?? - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also please note that I have removed the personal attack. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- You accused him of trying to sneak it by people. Counterattacking is not a wise or ethical response to claims of canvassing. Whether what you did met the technical definition of canvassing or not, your comment was rude and uncivil and failed to assume good faith about Guy's motivation and tactics. Knock it off. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't *accuse* him of anything. I *asked* him if that was his intentions. There is a difference. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but that's sophistry, and coming right after you at least borderline canvassed I can't AGF anymore about your intentions on this particular AFD.
- ...especially since Guy also "just asked a question". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- You aren't normally abusive or problematic, but this is a particularly sensitive question, and you have been particularly insensitive for a bit here, and the combination is not OK. Please take a short break and re-engage on the topic in a manner which won't increase drama and incivility. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but that's sophistry, and coming right after you at least borderline canvassed I can't AGF anymore about your intentions on this particular AFD.
- I didn't *accuse* him of anything. I *asked* him if that was his intentions. There is a difference. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- You accused him of trying to sneak it by people. Counterattacking is not a wise or ethical response to claims of canvassing. Whether what you did met the technical definition of canvassing or not, your comment was rude and uncivil and failed to assume good faith about Guy's motivation and tactics. Knock it off. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also please note that I have removed the personal attack. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have not done one thing disruptive or in violation of policy regarding this AfD. Mind pointing out specifics? Thanks. And you threaten to block me but just tell him to "tone it down a bit" ?? - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I think Gwh's comment is probably best for all. While ASE is not always sunshine and light, I don't think his comment is excusable, but the reaction has been a bit overboard as well. So let's all step back? The AFD itself is approaching WP:SNOW, the picture issue needs to be checked out, and I personally would like to hear from the subject of the article why they're all-fire against the words "openly gay" being in the article when they have blared their sexuality in half a dozen interviews. In other words, can we work on the encyclopedia rather than each others' nerves? =D -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 01:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Guy's language,regardless of what preceded it, was totally inexcusable -- it could be seen as a physical threat. Any other editor would have already been blocked for it. I am quite prepared to block for the length of time appropriate to physical threats if there is any support for it.DGG (talk) 16:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I did see it as a veiled threat but between him and George ganging up on me, I decided to move on from it. When I pointed out the PA, I got threatened with block by George but Guy got a "Please tone it down a bit" by George. No need to keep this going with any blocks of Guy but I would say that for someone to be in such a high esteemed position as Guy (he made sure to point that out here), he should consider how he talks to people. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 19:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I concurr with DGG that the comment by JzG constitutes an implicit threat of violence. However, the placement of an extended block against a current administrator's account would result in a serious conflict. Concerns relating to misconduct this severe by an administrator should be addressed directly to the Arbitration Committee, which, in view of the seriousness of the situation, may be willing to consider the matter without prior formal dispute resolution. John254 19:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Guy's language,regardless of what preceded it, was totally inexcusable -- it could be seen as a physical threat. Any other editor would have already been blocked for it. I am quite prepared to block for the length of time appropriate to physical threats if there is any support for it.DGG (talk) 16:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Handling sock puppetry (block review)
Hi. I've only tangentially become involved with one or two sock puppetry cases in the past and would appreciate assistance from someone more experienced in dealing with them. Revisiting Incivility...Griot above, an editor to whom I'd given feedback on a BLP concern asked my advice on my talk page how to proceed in the case of suspected sock puppetry. He (pardon if I'm using the wrong pronoun) followed up at checkuser and confirmed that User:Sedlam evidently is a sock puppet being used to thwart policy by User:Griot. I know that per policy User:Sedlam is blocked as a matter of course as an inappropriately used alternative account. (Please correct me if I've left the wrong templates.) I'm not sure what's to be done about User:Griot. A warning? A label? He is a long-standing editor who has as far as I know has never had a problem of this sort in the past, although it seems he was blocked on the 31st of January, 2008 for edit warring, I presume on Matt Gonzalez based on this note. My only experiences with Griot prior to this were in relation to the article Cabretta, and though we haven't always agreed he seemed like a constructive contributor. Perhaps some political topics are too emotionally engaging? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
If he was using a bad-hand sockpuppet to edit abusively, then both the primary and bad hand account should probably be blocked (based on a review of the edits in question). This is something the checkusers or checkuser clerks typically take care of, have they weighed in? Avruchtalk 00:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Other than confirming the check-user and the policy thwarting use of the account, no. I'm not sure they're going to. I notice that the matter was completed at 20:50 on February 8, and at the top of Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser, it says "In most cases, any block or other action based on the outcome will not be taken by the checkuser-people or the clerks. Instead, you will have to do this yourself." I'm not sure which cases constitute most. This is as close to check user as I've personally ever come. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 00:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- And so they did. :) Thanks for weighing in, Avruch. If I ever wind up in this situation again, I'll just wait a day to see if this falls into one of those "action to be taken" or "action not to be taken" situations. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 00:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Griot indef blocked?
Though we punish people who abusively sockpuppet, Griot is a longtime user in generally good standing prior to this incident.
However, the current block levied is indef against his main account.
This appears to be excessive and uncalled for. I agree that his sockpuppetry was abusive, but not indef-blocked abusive. A week, maybe?
Comments sought. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agree 100% with this assessment. I have no data relevant to this specific situ, but I do have years of positive experience with User:Griot. If indeed Griot is guilty, then he has some serious explaining to do and perhaps penance of some kind. But indef block seems way extreme unless the sockpuppetry is repeated and sustained. BusterD (talk) 02:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have no input on the proper length of a block for this situation, obviously, or I wouldn't have brought this here to begin with. :) I did not block the primary account myself because of his history, but as I said above, I have no experience with sock puppetry to speak of. I would like to note that the editor who initially requested the checkuser believes that Griot may have abused other accounts as well, as he indicated in a more recent note at my talkpage (a belief mirrored by the now blocked IP editor above). I don't know on what evidence or if these allegations are correct, but other suspicions seem to have been confirmed by checkuser. Is this the sort of thing that should be investigated prior to making final calls or only if Griot returns and concerns persist? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 02:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm the editor who requested the checkuser on User:Griot. I have no opinion on any action to take. I would like to add the following, though. User:Griot didn't simply switch back and forth and revert and be done with it. He made a self conscious planned out effort to deceive, and presented not just reverts, but purposively deceptive talk page commentary. For instance, on the talk page, to portray some sort of "compromise" having been reached, he writes "Please click the links and observe how other editors rejected your edit:" and then lists himself and his confirmed sock puppet (and one other editor of unknown relationship to this). Then, he logs out as Griot, logs in as User:Sedlam, and writes ":You can add me to this list of compromisers." On the BLP noticeboard , Both Griot and another likely sock User:Feedler, both gave input. As Moonriddengirl mentioned, I have reason to believe the sock puppetry by Griot goes back a ways on Nader-related articles, but wasn;t caught (although the issue seems to have been raised, but the complainant seems to have gotten blocked). Griot seems to have been vigourously edit warring on Nader article for a year or so. Elsewhere, he has confessed to have a serious personal grudge against Nader. Boodlesthecat (talk) 03:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The indef block is abnormal in this situation and unwarranted, in my opinion. Has the blocking admin commented? --Akhilleus (talk) 05:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Evidently, here, where she has indicated a willingness to go along with consensus and suggested this discussion. Personally, I'm wondering if a topical ban would be appropriate in the event that the block is made definite. It seems the sock account was used primarily to thwart consensus building and disguise edit warring on Ralph Nader and Ralph Nader's presidential campaigns. Perhaps this is evidence that the user is too emotionally invested in these articles to contribute to them as he does elsewhere? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe. Looking at the history of those articles, it looks like there's a lot of editing by drive-by IPs, SPAs, possible socks, etc. We know that one of the editors on the "other side" from Griot is a persistent sockpuppeteer. So my question is, has Griot been editing abusively for a long period (in which case I'd support a topic ban), or did he only turn to sockpuppetry recently after getting frustrated by the editing environment? (Either way, the use of socks is not good, and if he does it again, the block should be much longer...) --Akhilleus (talk) 15:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know. I suppose it might be worth asking Boodlesthecat the proceed with investigating his other suspicions to find out. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Adjust the block to be slightly less than that used against the person who opposed the user via the same tactics. Lambton T/C 21:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Do you mean slightly less than the IP editor recently blocked for 6 months here as a sock of User:Telogen, who was indef blocked here, or are there yet more Nader-fighting socks that I don't know about? :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 00:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Reduced block
The handling of this matter was over the top IMO. As an uninvolved editor/admin, and after reading the above, I have reset the duration to one week (it says 6 days, but note a day had elapsed since the block was enacted). Consensus here should determine whether further reduction or an unblock is warranted. I am particularly surprised at the treatment of the user's user and talk pages, which I have reverted to their pre-9 Feb state, and the ignoring of the blatant incivility of Boodlesthecat by those handling the case. I will be placing a warning on his talk page shortly - ([48] done). Orderinchaos 06:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- My response to the inference of incivility is here.. Boodlesthecat (talk) 22:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with User:Orderinchaos. As a relatively frequent reviewer of sockpuppetry cases at WP:SSP, the standard practice has been to block named abusive socks indefinitely, but to block the master account for a finite period if it appears to have at least some constructive potential. I typically block for 72 hours (see User:Lucy-marie, for example), though others use anything from 24 hours to a week. In any case, the master account (Griot) should definitely be blocked, but for a finite period (72 hours to 1 week). Further confirmed sockpuppetry should result in a lengthy or indefinite block, but an indefinite block for a first offense by a somewhat-constructive account is excessive. MastCell Talk 22:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Longstanding sock puppetry by Griot
I filed another Checkuser showing the very extended sock puppetry of Griot over here. Boodlesthecat (talk) 22:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Would someone have a look at the history of this. Serious BLP issues. IP adding content saying Philip Brady is gay and adding sources that do not mention Philip Brady anywhere in them. He's been warned numerous times and has been told directly that none of the sources he keeps adding mentions Philip Brady anywhere in them, much less anything about Brady being homosexual. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 23:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- That looks like a serious violation of the 25 revert rule... AecisBrievenbus 23:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- HAH! Okay, at least we got a laugh out of it. Snowfire51 (talk) 23:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- 3RR/25RR applies to BLP issues?? I didn't know.. I came across is initially where all the IP added was that the article subject was gay. Looked like vandalism to me. Revert. He kept adding, then started adding sources that don't mention the guy. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 00:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, it was WP:VAN, WP:3RR, WP:CIVIL, and WP:BLP. I guess admins can take their pick. Snowfire51 (talk) 00:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- 3RR/25RR applies to BLP issues?? I didn't know.. I came across is initially where all the IP added was that the article subject was gay. Looked like vandalism to me. Revert. He kept adding, then started adding sources that don't mention the guy. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 00:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- HAH! Okay, at least we got a laugh out of it. Snowfire51 (talk) 23:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- That looks like a serious violation of the 25 revert rule... AecisBrievenbus 23:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to get this straight, what the IP did violated 25RR, reverting him/her didn't. AecisBrievenbus 23:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Errors requiring correction on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR
There remain some errors on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. The following decision was altered, reversing the original reporter (me) and the reportee (G2Bambino):
Could someone please reverse the reporter and reportee back to the original. It now appears as:
I'm not going to get into altering this myself for obvious reasons. It came about because of a good-faith typo editing error by G2bambino.
G2bambino's original posting against me was deleted by me (unintentionally) and no administrator ever saw it. I submitted my complaint minutes after his, and thought it was a duplicate post of mine. So I guess it's only fair to restore this one and have an administrator rule on it.
I know this is a mess that neeeds to be verified and no one wants to deal with it, but the record should be corrected. Is there some uninvolved party that can handle this maybe?
--soulscanner (talk) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not against the restoration of this report, but I wonder about the worth; the report is actually against User:Quizimodo; every edit linked ([52], [53], [54], [55], [56]) is his, not mine. I've only made two edits to Dominion in the past two months.--G2bambino (talk) 16:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- The warning was against you and User:Quizimodo for removing neutrality tags I'd placed on the Dominion page; your warning is listed as being against me; for obvious reasons, that's unfair. You (mistakenly and in good faith as I explained) switched our names on the decision. Doing this got you blocked, until we figured out that you thought you were correcting what was a typo. I'd appreciate it if you acknowledged this and at least switch this back. In return, I offer to restore your original complaint against me for restoring these neutrality tags, a report I had accidentally deleted (also in good faith) as a double posting of my own complaint. I think that's fair. --soulscanner (talk) 18:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Leaving Wikipedia (Adam C)
I am leaving Wikipedia over the Arbcom case, to this end I have deleted the Reqwuest for comment on me, as there was a lot of accusations and such in there, and I'm not going to havce that show up under a search for my name for the life of Wikipedia. I will be going through and deleting my name from various other places as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam C 00:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think deleting RfC's is covered in RtV... That will probably be restored, and the AC case won't be deleted, so you should request courtesy blanking via e-mail or get a name change as part of your RtV. Avruchtalk 01:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- If the user is leaving Wikipedia—and in any event, will not be using administrator tools for awhile per the arbitration decision—I can't imagine what possible reason there would be to push for undeletion of the RfC, especially since this user edits under his real name. I am, as I invariably am in these discussions, more concerned and saddened by our losing a dedicated user than by the question of which project pages may be deleted or not. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, so should anyone be. I don't recall seeing or hearing about other RfC's deleted for the same reason, I assumed courtesy blanking was the standard here to preserve access to formal processes. (We don't even generally delete talk pages). I still think a protective name change would be a good idea, as he can't remove every edit he's made with his real name and all the places it still appears in his signature. Avruchtalk 01:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is not supposed to be an all out stab at ArbCom, but the RfC showed fairly strongly that Adam should keep his tools. I'm not sure why they haven't listened to this. There was no prior RfC to give him feedback about his actions, just straight into an arbitration case and proposed desysopping. It's not as if he was even the worst admin we ever had. I've discussed this on the arbitration talk page to no avail - it's a little upsetting that's all. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- More than a little. For now it's probably best to let Adam leave with as much dignity as possible. If I say anything more about the situation at this point, I'll probably regret it later. MastCell Talk 01:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, for what its worth. What is the point of suspending in favor of an RfC, if only to unsuspend and ignore the result? The whole point was because lesser forms of dispute resolution had not occurred. If the result of a lesser form of dispute resolution was to be dismissed, then directing people towards it was a waste of time. Avruchtalk 01:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. I have a number of fairly strong opinions about this particular case and its handling from start to finish, but this is probably not the best time or forum to express them. MastCell Talk 01:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I think this was handled very badly. So much for the test case. Are you all satisfied? What purpose did it serve? Who else is next?--Filll (talk) 02:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- No. "For now it's probably best to let Adam leave with as much dignity as possible". Pig's arse. Since when was it better for decent editors to leave? You can stick WP:CIVIL up your a++e, because if that's what you think, you are fools. Sorry for my bluntness.
- If decent editors like Adam are on the point of leaving, and a whole group of scientists are discussing a boycott, then there is something very seriously wrong. I'm a relative newbie to Wikipedia (1st edit last August) but I got quite keen quickly, and had 3 DYKs in January. Not much compared to many editors, but I was quite pleased. But now I'm pissed off with the whole thing because somebody who doesn't know much about some articles that I helped to expand has fly tipped POV tags all over them and there's nothing I can do to remove them. No contributions by the editor other than the drive by tagging. I've tried discussion, moderation of the articles, but a flat refusal to talk has been the result, leading to me becoming less civil in my remarks than WP demands, and if I don't back down then I'll get a ban, I suppose. Just because of drive by tagging of articles that I think are OK, well sourced. etc. That's Wikipedia.
- The most important, probably fundamental thing here is that it seems to me that Wiki is at the tipping point. Is it going to be an authoritative encyclopedia, or a playground? This is the question that is now arising daily on ANI and across Wiki generally. If you want the former, then analyse what it is that is pissing the serious editors off, and change it. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 02:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is very sad that Adam was driven to resign. He was an admirable Wikipedia editor, and his leaving is a serious loss to the project, especially science articles. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is a definite loss for the encyclopedia, and I am quite dismayed at the result of this case, which seems to have put a strong contributor and user in the impossible situation of being selected by ArbCom to be made an example of. Awful, awful precedent. FCYTravis (talk) 03:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I am so disgusted that the situation with Adam has been allowed to degenerate to the point where he feels no choice but to leave. The ArbCom members who have forced this situation should feel ashamed, and should recognise that they have severely damaged their reputations and credibility. I will have more to say about this once I am able to write something appropriate. Jay*Jay (talk) 07:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I haven't been able to write anything appropriate about this for a while now. (Deleted rant). To Adam, I hope you change your mind. To Arbcom, message received loud and clear, though I don't imagine it is what you intended it to be. R. Baley (talk) 08:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding dumb, which ArbCom is this from, I looked at the most recent couple cases, and didn't see AdamC listed at all. ThuranX (talk) 16:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Matthew_Hoffman. I guess it hasn't closed yet. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Let me get this straight. People who keep the pedia clear of fluff, like Adam, and people who write excellent articles, like Giano, are subject to various sanctions for incivility; but people who think they are working to minimize drama - Guy, to choose but one of several examples, and David as well - are not? What does this say about our priorities and effectiveness? What baloney. Relata refero (talk) 16:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to see you leave, Adam. I hope you will reconsider. I reiterate comments made by others who have asserted your value to the project and to science articles in particular. Orderinchaos 17:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I too am sorry to see Adam go, his contributions to the features article on evolution in particular were superb. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I am also sad to see Adam go, although I don't see why he is doing so now in such a histrionic way. I don't see that the Arb Com case was acutally closed with any particular remedy against Adam. I was a participant in the RFC and I think it was pretty clear from the RFC that Adam did use his admin tools inappropriately in disputes he was engaged in. I think that it is very clear by the admin guidelines that Admins should NOT do this. I don't think it is clear from any of the discussions that Adam every really admitted that he did anything amiss. I don't think that the high quality of many of his contributions gets him out of having to follow the rules, or, when he was wrong, admit that he was wrong. At this point, I don't think that he should be taking matters into his own hands by willy nilly deleting any discussion that contains his name as he exits. He should have another admin or a bureaucrat help him figure out what he can do to remove his real name from the encyclopedia. You are not an island, Adam, you are part of a community. Stop being a lone wolf. Abridged talk 18:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC) NOTE the following mass deletion of my user page: [57]. Abridged talk 18:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- My recollection is that Adam did apologize and promised to be more careful. He did agree to give up his tools for 6 months willingly and be under probation for another 6 months. My understanding is that Adam objected to the wording of [of Fact #9] and had asked repeatedly that it be modified. Others agreed at the RfC and at the Arbcomm talk pages, including some Arbcomm members. I hope Adam reconsiders, but I would not blame him for coming back under another name, or never coming back. I also think there is a limit to how much hounding a person can take, given that this is an unpaid hobby.--Filll (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- From the discussion of that point, it looks like the arb com bent over backwards to accomodate him, but were unable to go to the extent of changing a true statement to an untrue statement to save face for him. Honestly, Fill, at some point everyone has to be held accountable for their actions. Abridged talk 00:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well we can beg to differ on what the Arbcomm did and did not do, and I suggest that I am not alone in interpreting things different than you do. However, in terms of holding everyone accountable for their own actions, I wonder why you were not held accountable for yours?--Filll (talk) 00:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- What the bloody hell are you talking about?????? Please supply a diff if you are going to make bizarre vague accussations. Abridged talk 00:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well we can beg to differ on what the Arbcomm did and did not do, and I suggest that I am not alone in interpreting things different than you do. However, in terms of holding everyone accountable for their own actions, I wonder why you were not held accountable for yours?--Filll (talk) 00:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- From the discussion of that point, it looks like the arb com bent over backwards to accomodate him, but were unable to go to the extent of changing a true statement to an untrue statement to save face for him. Honestly, Fill, at some point everyone has to be held accountable for their actions. Abridged talk 00:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- My recollection is that Adam did apologize and promised to be more careful. He did agree to give up his tools for 6 months willingly and be under probation for another 6 months. My understanding is that Adam objected to the wording of [of Fact #9] and had asked repeatedly that it be modified. Others agreed at the RfC and at the Arbcomm talk pages, including some Arbcomm members. I hope Adam reconsiders, but I would not blame him for coming back under another name, or never coming back. I also think there is a limit to how much hounding a person can take, given that this is an unpaid hobby.--Filll (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I am also sad to see Adam go, although I don't see why he is doing so now in such a histrionic way. I don't see that the Arb Com case was acutally closed with any particular remedy against Adam. I was a participant in the RFC and I think it was pretty clear from the RFC that Adam did use his admin tools inappropriately in disputes he was engaged in. I think that it is very clear by the admin guidelines that Admins should NOT do this. I don't think it is clear from any of the discussions that Adam every really admitted that he did anything amiss. I don't think that the high quality of many of his contributions gets him out of having to follow the rules, or, when he was wrong, admit that he was wrong. At this point, I don't think that he should be taking matters into his own hands by willy nilly deleting any discussion that contains his name as he exits. He should have another admin or a bureaucrat help him figure out what he can do to remove his real name from the encyclopedia. You are not an island, Adam, you are part of a community. Stop being a lone wolf. Abridged talk 18:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC) NOTE the following mass deletion of my user page: [57]. Abridged talk 18:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Is he allowed to remove his name from archives, per WP:VANISH? Such as here (AN archive), here (ANI archive), here (the Signpost), and here (a user's talk page)? Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I'm concerned this is the (not unexpected) result of an ArbCom "experiment", I don't really care if it's technically allowed or not. Perhaps we should not try to keep finding new ways to poke him with a stick. That is all for now. Civility Rules! (if not for thee, then for me), </no sarcasm> R. Baley (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Wait a second. Am I right in thinking he actually deleted Abridged's user talk??? Isn't that just more abuse of admin tools? And look at the all-caps edit summary, too. [58] and [59] If I'm right in what I'm seeing -and I can hardly believe that I am- you guys are actually defending this user? This is the last straw for me. I defended this user as being basically a good guy who needed to admit his mistakes and reform. I would have been happy if he'd done so. But this really sucks. He can't even leave WP without deleting someone else's talk page? And other huge disruptions? This is exactly the kind of abusive behavior he's being desysoped for, and he obviously hasn't learned a thing. No, one can only say the ArbCom took the measure of the man, and made the correct decision. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- He shouldn't have done that, and it's been fixed. On the other hand, actions performed in anger, on the way out the door after what can justifiably be described as a debacle, cannot be used to retroactively justify previous findings. MastCell Talk 04:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is one debacle after another, from one point of view or another. It was the way Adam handled previous debacles (or potential therefore) which got him desysoped, and the way he's dealing with this one shows he still handles them the same way. Unfortunately. And, that is just more of the same defense as used at the RfC: things are bad so it is OK to act bad [60]. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Let me put it another way: If Adam came back now and said "I acted badly. I won't do it again. What others did and the circumstances within Wikipedia are not an excuse for what I did. And in addition to abuse of my sysop tools and other problems brought up in the RfC, my editing style was non-consensual and sometimes abusive. I'm going to make every effort to adhere to the highest standards of civility, neutrality and admin ethics." I would even now write to ArbCom and say he should be given another chance. Yes, at this point I think he would abuse that chance, but the above is basically something which every Wikipedian is supposed to adhere to (minus the admin ethics). That Adam won't do that shows what is wrong. In addition, that his friends won't do that shows what is super-wrong. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think your comments are correct, and that the problem was not and is not limited to a single vanishing user. Homeopathy is still under probation, for instance. —Whig (talk) 05:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Let me put it another way: If Adam came back now and said "I acted badly. I won't do it again. What others did and the circumstances within Wikipedia are not an excuse for what I did. And in addition to abuse of my sysop tools and other problems brought up in the RfC, my editing style was non-consensual and sometimes abusive. I'm going to make every effort to adhere to the highest standards of civility, neutrality and admin ethics." I would even now write to ArbCom and say he should be given another chance. Yes, at this point I think he would abuse that chance, but the above is basically something which every Wikipedian is supposed to adhere to (minus the admin ethics). That Adam won't do that shows what is wrong. In addition, that his friends won't do that shows what is super-wrong. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You'll notice I didn't ask for anything which constituted a humiliation, at least not in my opinion. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Look - Adam made some bad decisions with the tools. Instead of the usual process of community feedback, followed by a chance to improve, he was rushed to ArbCom by an angry Arbitrator as a "test case" and his desysopping was proposed within 12 hours of the case opening. He was then poked with a stick incessantly for about 2 months, after which he snapped and has apparently left in a huff, inappropriately deleting some pages on the way. And now I'm hearing, "Gee, look at how angry he got - he really deserved to be poked with that stick after all!" MastCell Talk 22:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You'll notice I didn't ask for anything which constituted a humiliation, at least not in my opinion. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
What Adam has been doing is removing himself and, as far as he can, all trace of himself from Wikipedia. Which in my opinion is sensible, this is a dangerous place to be identifiable. Thanks go to Whig and Abridged for helping to accommodate that right to vanish, I'd hope that others can assist in completing the removal of contentious mentions. The object that some people have had of removing his admin tools has been achieved. The "example" this has set can be discussed in principle, without dragging his name into it. .. dave souza, talk 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- No problem. I wish ac well. At this point, I am leaving Wikipedia too. I think that communities work if people in general follow and respect the rules. This AC case, and all the static around it, has shown that the wikipedia community has serious problems around this. So many people were so willing to defend an admin who was clearly not following the admin guidelines, civility is not taken seriously at all, and the edit wars are really unpleasant. What is the problem with having various povs mentioned in an article? Isn't that what NPOV is about? Why rampage through the encyclopedia deleting everything you don't agree with using excuses that guidelines don't even support? Awhile back, a number of admins and others voted to ban me from wikipedia becuase I brought an RFC asking AC to retract a personal attack. What did I really do that was so wrong that so many editors and admins were willing to PERMANENTLY BAN ME FROM THE COMMUNITY FOR THE ACTION??? These same users were defending AC, when he DID BREAK ESTABLISHED RULES. These users included: ScienceApologist, Shot info, Filll, OrangeMarlin, Horologium, Skinwalker, Neıl, •Jim62sch•, BLACKKITE</font, Raymond Arritt, User:Fyslee, User:FeloniousMonk, and Guettarda. Why is this stuff allowed to go on????? Abridged talk 18:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Signature
- Jeffmichaud (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Jeffmichaud for a long time has used the signature "Jeff", but changed it on Jan 14 to "Baha'i Under the Covenant".[61] The policy on User names says to avoid names that are offensive or promotional. WP:sig suggests for users to politely request others to change their signature. If there is consensus that the policy of avoiding 'offensive, confusing, or promotional' user names equally applies to signature, then I also suggest updating WP:sig.
I politely requested on Jan 24 for him to change the signature,[62] and after no response I warned him again on Feb 8,[63]. The first request was immediately archived,[64] and the second request was immediately deleted outright from his talk page.[65]
For more details on why this is both offensive and promotional, glance over Baha'i divisions. The Baha'i religion has teachings on the succession of authority, and anyone creating divisions are considered dangerous and shunned, labeled "Covenant-breaker". The implication is that there is a Covenant in the religion to provide unity, and anyone who breaks away is not under the Covenant. Jeffmichaud belongs to one such group with a handful of followers who call themselves the "Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant". Changing his signature in the middle of a debate over Baha'i content was his way of promoting his ideological claim in the face of other editors. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 01:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oh good grief! What kind of belief or faith is it that cannot withstand critical comment even from within itself? And when it comes down to mere words, whatever their implications, I'd suggest that any belief system should be self-confident and self-consistent in itself to be able to ignore mere words. That words are found offensive doesn't help in the slightest. Throughout history, words have been labelled as offensive, mostly because they represent a difference from orthodoxy; but in the context of an analytical, independently-minded and intellectually balanced source of information, rather than of opinion, taking offence at mere words is jejune, intellectually barren, and time-wasting. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Addendum: Please feel free to cite any authority whatsoever, religious, legal or otherwise, that supports a right not to be offended. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- That is completely not the point. We have a Wikipedia policy that says not to use offensive user names, and a guideline that says it equally applies to signatures. Your response is attacking the policy and saying that nobody should be offended by anything. That's nonsense and a total disregard for the official policy that "all users should follow". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I apologise, but I personally am offended by any user name containing the letter "c". Therefore, they should all be banned. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 11:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Once again, completely not the point, and an illogical disregard for WP policy. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Stop shaking the straw man, please. Or is that Reductio ad absurdum? hbdragon88 (talk) 19:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I apologise, but I personally am offended by any user name containing the letter "c". Therefore, they should all be banned. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 11:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- That is completely not the point. We have a Wikipedia policy that says not to use offensive user names, and a guideline that says it equally applies to signatures. Your response is attacking the policy and saying that nobody should be offended by anything. That's nonsense and a total disregard for the official policy that "all users should follow". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Forgive my stupidity, but exactly how is the signature offensive or promotional? —Kurykh 07:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I can't see it either; sounds like the debate we had over User:Rama's Arrow a few months ago. --Rodhullandemu
- Hmmm.. neither can I. Has the subject since changed it? Rudget. 14:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I can't see it either; sounds like the debate we had over User:Rama's Arrow a few months ago. --Rodhullandemu
(Talk) 12:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC) This is a big part of why I don't edit Baha'i articles anymore. :\ JuJube (talk) 14:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe I should make something clear: I don't think it's offensive that he has certain beliefs and edits wikipedia, but he changed his signature to something that implies divine right. It would be like a user name of "I'm in God's favor and you're not". There is no need to use controversial user names/signatures and I politely requested for him to change it, and I politely requested for an administrator to enforce policy and ask him to change it to something less controversial. And no he hasn't changed it yet. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'll take a deeper look, and ask him to change it based on that reason. I don't see anything unreasonable in asking the subject to change to something that would at least reflect his username. Rudget. 15:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe I should make something clear: I don't think it's offensive that he has certain beliefs and edits wikipedia, but he changed his signature to something that implies divine right. It would be like a user name of "I'm in God's favor and you're not". There is no need to use controversial user names/signatures and I politely requested for him to change it, and I politely requested for an administrator to enforce policy and ask him to change it to something less controversial. And no he hasn't changed it yet. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey, is someone here talking about me behind my back? Kidding. Rudget, I will respectfully decline your request to change anything if, as seems clear from the discussion that transpired, I'm not in violation of any policies nor am I being "required". I don't believe I've violated any policy, but rather am being "asked" to change it to appease Cunado's will on the matter? After closer look at the actual policies on the matter it is obvious that Cunado is taking generous liberties at interpreting them in his own unique way for reasons not exactly obvious to me or anyone else. I appreciate your sentiments to avoid controversy, Rudget, but if it is offensive to Cunado I can only be envious that his life is so blessed to have nothing of greater concern to worry about. Baha'i Under the Covenant (talk) 07:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- WP:Username policy is a policy that "all users should follow", and "a user who acts against the spirit of them may be reprimanded, even if technically no rule has been violated." The policy states that inappropriate user names are ones that are misleading, promotional, offensive, or disruptive, and "these criteria apply to both usernames and signatures." I already explained why the signature is controversial. I was once blocked for not following WP:sig, which is a guideline and not even a policy, see this conversation. Someone please enforce policy. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
New user User:Lostanos tagging other users as confirmed socks
(reports combined - Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC))
Lostanos (talk · contribs) has tagged at least a dozen user pages as confirmed socks of Hkelkar (talk · contribs). Pairadox (talk) 04:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Lostanos (talk · contribs)'s entire edit history is sticking Helkar sockpuppet tags on Users' User pages. Corvus cornixtalk 04:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please block this guy ASAP and delete all of his nonsense edits. Corvus cornixtalk 04:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely - might be an innocent explanation, but there's something certainly not right about those edits. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Should we go about cleaning up his mess now? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I just spot-checked about a dozen of the accounts Lostanos tagged, and all of them were indefinitely blocked as socks of Hkelkar. But they were all blocked on October 26, 2007, so I agree there isn't much value to posting a bunch of sock tags tonight. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Should we go about cleaning up his mess now? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
- They just asked for an unblock claiming that all the tags were on blocked but untagged hkelkar accounts... which appears to be correct, on spot check of 20 of them.
- It's obviously not a real new user, and it's really darn suspicious to me... but I'd like second opinions on whether to leave blocked or not. One thing that occurs to me is that it might be Hkelkar doing a PR stunt run.
- In the meantime, I think maybe just leave the tags as is, as they appear to be right. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- My immediate thought was an Hkelkar sock. Corvus cornixtalk 04:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would say there's enough here for a checkuser, to see if it is a hkelkar sock... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was way ahead of you on that one. Filed and listed. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would say there's enough here for a checkuser, to see if it is a hkelkar sock... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- My immediate thought was an Hkelkar sock. Corvus cornixtalk 04:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Nah, this isn't Hkelkar. It's more likely to be User:Kuntan than not. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 09:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Entirely possible, but the question remains: how in heaven's name was this disruptive? Relata refero (talk) 10:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Reply to Moreschi and Relata, Not me. I didn't go anywhere near there. It could very well be a PR stunt by the dirty guru, as GWH suggested.59.91.253.184 (talk) 14:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Zenwhat
Since no admin seems to have the sense to have unblocked User:Zenwhat yet, I'll make this a new section. This user was blocked for removing a section he started on the village pump [66], with the edit summary "Too angry when I wrote this. I don't want a flame-war. I changed my mind. This thread is getting deleted."
He was trying to make the situation right, and got blocked for it. Some users can be a pain in the butt, but guess what, no one has to edit Wikipedia, no one has to go to discussion pages. If people like Zen drive you mad, edit somewhere else, but you don't get to block them because you don't like them. -- Ned Scott 06:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- This user's pattern of edits to project-space have been very eccentric, to say the least, and unhelpful. If he is unblocked, he should be restricted to editing only articles and their corresponding talk pages. *** Crotalus *** 06:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think we should block people for personality qwerks. Unless they're actually being disruptive, don't block them, or restrict them. Criticism of the Foundation, however misplaced it might be, is not banned from the Village Pump. -- Ned Scott 06:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps the interesting quirk to look at is the pattern of making edits and either deleting them or claiming "oh well, I do silly things". Making mistakes is one thing, continually making mistakes with the justification that one makes mistakes is another. No I don't have a set of diffs. Franamax (talk) 06:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- We users are often reminded that blocks are to protect WP and to prevent disruption, and are not used punitively. The blocking admin's rationale was that removing the comments of other editors was unacceptable. Zenwhat recognises he should have archived rather than removed. The comments have been restored, and the discuaaion in question is archived. There is thus little "protective" benefit to be had in continuing this block. Since I know that punitive blocks aren't permitted, the situation here must be that no one has noticed the discussions above or that not removing the block is an oversight - after all, none of Wikipedia's admins would ever act to punish an editor. Jay*Jay (talk) 07:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, Zenwhat seems to have a history of acting, then recognising and apologising for inappropriate actions. To the extent that this statement is true, then the protective benefit of a continuing block is to prevent the disruption caused by these recurrent mistakes. The time-out also gives pause for reflection and hopefully self-remediation. Franamax (talk) 09:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have spent a lot of time on two serious efforts to convince Zenwhat to become more responsible in his actions. He accused me of violating WP:AGF and WP:AHI by criticising him. I invite those who feel that blocking Zenwhat was unjustified or not necessary to prevent further disruption to read my two long conversations with him (see my talk page). If this does not change your mind, then presumably I approached it in the wrong way and would like to get some feedback on my talk page. Thanks. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, if this was just a "personality quirk", that would be one thing. But this user seems to live to stir up the shit with twisted arguments that I have doubts over the sincerity of. (1 == 2)Until 16:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I missed this second thread, but per above, I unblocked about an hour ago. Orderinchaos 17:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, if this was just a "personality quirk", that would be one thing. But this user seems to live to stir up the shit with twisted arguments that I have doubts over the sincerity of. (1 == 2)Until 16:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Though Zenwhat is "retired" now, there is previous User:Nathan admitted, and see above similar edit pattern (briefly) a user banned? called something similar to User:Karmaisking. Are there issues of the socking nature that deserve more attention?
- Interacting with Zenwhat on WP talkpages recently has been a rather frustrating experience.
- I have no problems with Zenwhat being unblocked at this time, however, if the user comes back from retirement, some remedies (ie agree to abide by talkpage guidelines, and respect both WPspace and mainspace as decent venues for building knowledge, not a battleground).
- Other editors have commented on Zenwhat's energy, prolificy, and remarkable tendency to hurl accusasions, of CABAL, assume bad-faith, invoke IAR, SPADE, -ICK, etc. The incivility is the main issue, and the user will not acknowledge the need to drop such nastiness in the future. But, then, they've retired. Newbyguesses - Talk 19:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Unblocking him was not the most smartest thing to do, since he has a history of becoming 'Hostile' towards other editors that disagree's with him, I'm not going to Bite him or call him a troll though his attitude is nothing less than what an actual troll does, he earlier created to policies on Meta called Precisionism and Don't be a crybaby with the latter being the one which defines his attitude perfectly..Previously he edited as an anon, where his attitude has been similar and he also had personal Grudges against editors like Sceptre and also making personal attacks against him as well as near edit warring here and on a deleted article maybe to enforce a POV... I don't think this person will ever contribute positively to wikipedia and thats why I disagree with the unbanning...--Cometstyles 02:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why are the meta essays he wrote particularly bad? I for one find the "Don't be a crybaby" essay, while unfortunately named, a particularly illuminating essay and the approach with which I (try) to approach Wikipedia. --Iamunknown 03:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You may have misread Cometstyle's comment. I think it is safe to say that Zenwhat behaves like the crybaby in the essay: he is rude and overly inflammatory. I am not sure if he imagines he is acting like the Zen master of the story, or if he wants to teach us to behave like the Zen master, by openly playing the martial arts student. In both cases this is at the same time a good and useful essay and another example of Zenwhat externalising his faults. There is also a chance that he wrote this essay as a reminder to himself, but then it clearly didn't work. As to "precisionism": I have never heard the term before. Apparently he wanted to popularise it because he thinks it describes his attitude.
- The problem I see with the unblock is that it allows him to continue in his delusion of having community support for his disruptions. I hope that the next time he has to be blocked for outrageous activities it will be for less than a week, so that the educational effect won't be spoiled by another unblock. --Hans Adler (talk) 09:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think you understand, his behavior, while not the best, didn't warrant a block in the first place. -- Ned Scott 09:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sigh. This is what makes Wikipedia great. A user comes here simply to complain about the place and make a scene, gets blocked for it, and scores of admins who apparently don't have time to worry about important things like vandalism reversions and taking care of other ANI posts, sit around and argue about the precise definition of troll. This is almost as bad as arguing about Coolcat's userpage. The fact that I'm edit conflicting in posting here only proves my point. Not that we're feeding, or that I've seen this happen 500 times before or anything. Get on, guys, do something useful; you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. If the user wishes to contribute, let him say sorry now (as the community has so agreed), or he can find another username anyway, which he obviously doesn't. And then END OF STORY, move on. The Evil Spartan (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- To be fair, we are 7 users who have nothing better to do. The 3 admins in this thread have contributed only 1 post each and didn't argue much about the semantics. I will certainly stop doing it now. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sigh. This is what makes Wikipedia great. A user comes here simply to complain about the place and make a scene, gets blocked for it, and scores of admins who apparently don't have time to worry about important things like vandalism reversions and taking care of other ANI posts, sit around and argue about the precise definition of troll. This is almost as bad as arguing about Coolcat's userpage. The fact that I'm edit conflicting in posting here only proves my point. Not that we're feeding, or that I've seen this happen 500 times before or anything. Get on, guys, do something useful; you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. If the user wishes to contribute, let him say sorry now (as the community has so agreed), or he can find another username anyway, which he obviously doesn't. And then END OF STORY, move on. The Evil Spartan (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think you understand, his behavior, while not the best, didn't warrant a block in the first place. -- Ned Scott 09:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why are the meta essays he wrote particularly bad? I for one find the "Don't be a crybaby" essay, while unfortunately named, a particularly illuminating essay and the approach with which I (try) to approach Wikipedia. --Iamunknown 03:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Last time I checked this was a volunteer project, and users can choose to spend their time in one area or another if they wish. Yes, we could ignore this, but we chose to look at a situation which bothered us, discussed the issue, and I'm sure we hope that the discussion effects more than the immediate issue. -- Ned Scott 10:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- ZW is unblocked. ZW is "retired". ZW chooses not to comment at the AN/I. ZW chooses not to acknowledge any need to respond to the concerns of editors who, collectively, have been attacked and insulted by ZW. All done? Newbyguesses - Talk 12:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Zenwhat is a extremely intelligent person who unfortunately is badly let down by his equally extremely impetuous nature. If he were to think before he acted more often, he would be a great contributor. He does spot his own mistakes and correct them, which is a sign that he is learning, which is a positive thing. I'm fairly certain that he isn't intentionally trolling. I've been scratching my head about what to do about the impetuousness, though. --Kim Bruning (talk) 13:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Ned Scott's mass-undos on Navigational templates.
I'll repeat what I told another admin just earlier to keep it simple:
"I'm not sure why you told me to go to ANI, the first thing I saw was a notice board telling me to report vandalism at the page that I reported it on. I'll explain the issue to you, perhaps you can help.
Ned Scott is taking ownership of templates that he created on the grounds that he has every right to make each template a unique color and size. Personally, when viewed on the pages these templates are featured on it detracts from the article, and in some cases is a technical issue of being difficult to read due to poor color choice and cause the template to look bad on lower screen resolutions. This is not the reason I posted his username on Admin intervention, the reason is how uncivil he has been towards me and how poorly he has been going about "fixing" the problems that he sees.
He has been using the undo function on about 30 separate templates reverting back to, in many cases, his last personal edit of that template. The problem with this is that in addition to removing the unsightly styling he also removed code tidying that I performed and worse other user edits that include things like adding and updating links, so on and so forth. I have brought this to his attention I believe three times now, but he continue to, by the definition of the word, knowingly vandalize these pages destroying positive and useful edits made by multiple users.
I invited him to discuss the styling issue he had with other members of video game project and me and kick started the discussion. Responses have mostly been that other felt the same way as me about personal styling on what's suppose to be a standardized way of navigating between pages of a related article. In that same discussion another admin warned Ned about using undo, and Ned's response was that he'd stop. He has not stopped. The most recent act of vandalism marks the fourth time he's done blind mass-undos and despite being told in plain english, continuing to ignore changes made by other users. In a few cases other users were turning his edits around in protest, and he goes and revert their changes as well.
Ned has been wholly uncooperative with me about this, I have attempted to communicate and failed, I have brought him into discussion and failed, I have given his very merciful warnings and failed. Unless someone intervenes and puts a stop to it he will continue to disregard his infractions and fellow Wikipedians. He even pulled his own warning off the intervention page, tell me yes or no if that was acceptable behavior.
It is far beyond a simple disagreement and I regret not putting it on the dispute page earlier, but this immaturity is destructive to this project and needs to stop."
If this is the best place to seek help regarding the issue then that's fine, but Ned should know better than to do a blind undo when he's been told repeatedly they are destroying valid changes. He's behaving childish towards me, calling me a liar, etc., and will not attempt to create middle ground. I don't have the patience for blunt-faced attitudes like this so I need help. Thank you. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 07:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- There's a few things wrong in this post. For one, never have I claimed that I created these templates.. I'm not sure why Aeron thinks so. Second, only originally did I completely undo his edits, since I saw his other modifications as minor technical changes. Since then I've made sure that those edits were saved, and made independent edits to add back in custom options that the templates originally had. He's completely wrong about me restoring to a completely older version, even though I've specifically pointed this out to him more than once.
- WT:VG#Navbox custom styling, does it improve or reduce the quality of an article? is the discussion he is talking about. You can see that User:David Fuchs's comments, and my response to them, is very different than what Aeron describes. Two editors responded in the discussion that they felt general template standardization was desired, but that's about it.
- You can see my original comments to him regarding this issue: [67], [68], [69]. If anyone could please talk some sense into Aeron I would be greatly indebted to you. -- Ned Scott 07:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Might as well get in on this while I can. I first encountered a conflict with Aeron here and again here. Notice that I didn't revert the template code back from when it looked like this because I generally agreed with the navbox look; the only issue was the width which I thought didn't look so great when the entire right side of the template is empty when at full width (on my screen). I was going to revert him again on the issue, but then User:Servant Saber got involved, only to revert himself which I found odd, so I checked his talk page and came to this discussion (I'm the 'other guy' he refers to btw) where Aeron talked about how the template at 50% the screen width would look very different then at my full width. Realizing this, I did a test by shortening my browser window and realized what he was getting at, so I went along with his edits. Then Ned got involved and (since I've had a good amount of experience with Ned in the past) I knew things were going to heat up since in my experience Ned can be very steadfast in his points and likes to do things quickly without much hesitation, or so I've come to realize through working with him for close to two years now on various issues. I knew that if Ned started reverting things, Aeron probably would too, and if he did that, Ned would just revert him again, and I see this is what happened, which of course leads us here.
- My opinion on this issue falls on three template which I created: {{Key}}, {{Strawberry Panic!}}, and {{Higurashi no Naku Koro ni}}, so naturally I have them on my watchlist, so I was able to notice when the code was being edited. After either Aeron or Ned would edit, I'd come in and create a middle ground so the template still looked nice rather than disjointed, but I didn't revert either of their edits, mainly because I didn't want to get in the middle of it. In the end, the discussion about template widths made me agree that perhaps putting the template on full-width is better, but that's pretty much the only thing I agree with Aeron on regarding these templates. I do not see a problem with the colors, even though I've never used them myself, but that's because I'm too lazy. Also, I saw at {{Navbox}} that there are two bullets you can use in the template, {{·}}, and {{•}}, and seeing as I had a choice between the two, I chose the former since it was less obtrusive and looked better, though Aeron later reverted me on {{Key}} with this edit, saying that the much bolder separators are easier to see on higher resolution screens, and since I didn't feel like edit waring over such a tiny issue, I didn't really care, even if I do prefer the less bolder bullets. This comes back to Aeron's template standardization efforts, and the fact that he is not leaving any room for any deviation from a single standard, but I say what's the point in even having two different bullets to separate links in a template if we are only ever going to use one because it's "easier to see on higher resolutions". Same thing goes for template colors and width choices, since they are still a part of the navbox template code, and they were put there so people wouldn't have to only make a single choice when making a template and could somewhat color outside the lines a bit if they felt like it.
- In short, there's no real policy or guideline preventing users from being a bit creative or having the choice what bullet type to use for a given template, and I do not think Aeron really has any real backing in order to systematically alter all the templates used on Wikipedia under a single standard due to there being no consensus as to use a single standardized template or not. I'd recommend Aeron start a discussion at WP:MOS or someplace similar which could get a community-wide discussion going as to whether templates should all look exactly the same or not, rather than just a tiny discussion at WikiProject Video Games.--十八 08:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds like a classic case of WP:BRD with Ned conducing the reverting part. There is no guideline or manual of style recommending the use of {{Navbox}}, so it is left up to the individual template editors and the related WikiProjects on whether to use it and how. --Farix (Talk) 00:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
My monitor is 1680x1050 and only 15.4", and I can see the small bullets just fine. I agree the width probably should be full, since many navboxes need it, and having a standard is usually a good idea; and, horizontal nav bars in web pages general are full-width. It also makes sense since nothing else can/would ever go on the left/right of the box anyway, so I don't see the need to limit the width. Full width means they can be as wide or narrow as people need them to be, as opposed to specifying a set width, which limits everyone needlessly. Equazcion •✗/C • 14:08, 10 Feb 2008 (UTC)
There is some disruption on the article for TRECA. A user, alternating between three accounts, keeps inserting material criticising the school and its superintendent. In my humble opinion, their edits violate Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Wikipedia is neutral, no original research, biography of living persons, by targeting the superintendent, and information must be verifiable.
This has been going on since at least November 29.
Accounts in question
- Tommooney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- 72.241.244.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- 72.241.241.243 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
I was going to provide diffs, but the users' contributions above will show you all the diffs you need because they're single purpose accounts. What can be done to address this problem? I wasn't sure where to post this, since it wasn't technically a 3RR violation and may involve sockpuppets, so I hope this is the right place. Thanks, Somno (talk) 10:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've semi-protected the page. As for Tommooney, given that he/she has only received one warning, let's see if he/she reforms himself/herself. If not, the user should be blocked. --Nlu (talk) 10:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Given that the article is stubbed and unsourced, the temptation is to perform the nucliar option and delete it under WP:MORETROUBLETHANITSWORTH. Black Kite 10:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- True, it's not a great article. It's not even a good article. But maybe if the POV-pushing is stopped, other editors might be encouraged to improve it? I hope so. Thanks for your help Nlu. Somno (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- [citation needed], seriously I agree with Black Kite, a quick search [70] brings hits connected to the association itself and the third party sources appear to be directories. - Caribbean~H.Q. 13:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Article PRODded. — Satori Son 18:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- [citation needed], seriously I agree with Black Kite, a quick search [70] brings hits connected to the association itself and the third party sources appear to be directories. - Caribbean~H.Q. 13:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed {{prod}} as I believe the article should not be deleted. If there is belief otherwise, please AfD it. --Nlu (talk) 01:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have added some links to the article's Talk page. I also did a quick search and found that there are third party sources out there that aren't directories. Search for "Tri-Rivers Educational Computer Association" instead of TRECA and they'll come up. Somno (talk) 05:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Arcayne's posts in RfC
I've written the following in response to Arcayne's latest lengthy response to two editors on Talk:Harold_Washington#RfC:_How_much_importance_should_be_placed_on_Mirth_.26_Girth_in_Harold_Washington.3F.
"wikipedia's policy's on civility including alluding to other editor's being less informed, intelligent or otherwise seemingly inferior to you are simply not acceptable. Not if you're in a bad mood, not if you feel you've explained everything already or for any other reason. In your latest (and, to me, excessive) reply to me you've insinuated that I'm "huffy or stupid", have "nothing but a bag of personal feelings", called me "parochial", non-objective; you've insinuated that I want to use anything but reliable sources which is simply false. I think you've again crossed the line but I'll invite you to ANI to see if I'm off-base on this."
As I'm one of the involved parties I didn't think I should post a civility warning on their talk page. I also didn't comment on their response, in the same edit, to another user that also seems to be full of borderline statements. This RfC has been a series of editors who state their concerns and this user verbosely counters apparently swaying no one. Personally I would have walked away, however, I feel their aim to install an image that the majority of those editors on the RfC have deemed unneeded is persistent and needs to be addressed. Benjiboi 10:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Comment Previous request for advice. Benjiboi 11:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
My impression is that Arcayne gets away with a lot of incivility and assumptions of bad faith, largely since his comments are just so lengthy. El_C 11:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's a good summary. He's gotten better since joining, but he can backslide. ThuranX (talk) 15:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, I admit that I can get pretty hot under the collar - as those who have posted in response here have, as well. I will also admit that my growing frustration with what I feel as a small group of three people determined to ignore/misinterpret wiki policy, guidelines and instead display rather OWNish behavior in the article has allowed me to forget to be more patient and polite. I will certainly work on that, and I had in fact apologized for my slip. Feeling a bit like Sysiphus made me lose my temper a bit.
- While we are on the topic, it would be splendid to have some admin eyes on the article. Two editors - of which Benjoboi is one - have ignored my suggestions that they consult with an admin on the policy on point, or seek MedCab. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why do you need an admin? El_C 17:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Because I think it might be helpful if it weren't just myself pointing out policy and guidelines. I certainly feel that way, esp. when the sole reasoning for keeping the image out is the 'i don't like it' corker. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why do you need an admin? El_C 17:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've commented there, but just as a uninvolved user. DGG (talk) 16:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry of Neutralhomer
Per pretty clear evidence at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Neutralhomer, I have indefinitely blocked Flatsky (talk · contribs) as a sockpuppet of Neutralhomer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) used only when evading blocks. Flatsky's edits all took place during periods when the other account was under a block (within an hour of his Sept. 3 block and two days after his Jan. 10 block). Because of this, I have also reset that Jan. 10 block. Just posting this here for other eyes on it. Metros (talk) 12:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's getting to the time when we'll need to kick Neutralhomer out for good. He's causing more problems here than he's solving. The next block should really be indefinite. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 13:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd have done it this time. He's had plenty of chances. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I did have that thought, but decided to just reset it. If anyone wants to open discussion on an indefinite block or just put one in place, they'd have my full support. Metros (talk) 13:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd have done it this time. He's had plenty of chances. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Template:Usercompare βcommand 19:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Confirmed at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Neutralhomer - Alison ❤ 19:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Neutralhomer clearly desires to help edit Wikipedia, but his interactions with Calton and JPG-GR tend to be disruptive. Could we try to think of some creative solutions, as opposed to extending the block on the main account? Here are my thoughts.
- One thing that seems to get him into trouble is his use of automated reverts, like TWINKLE & popups. Why not remove all popup-enabled tools from his monobook and then protect it? If he wants to add a script, he could ask a sysop. (I recall that he and Riana are on friendly terms.)
- Also, does he edit in the same areas as Calton? If not, I say we limit both of their interactions with each other. (I say "each other" because interactions, initiated by whomever, between Neutralhomer and Calton, tend to result in Neutralhomer getting blocked.)
- I'm not certain how we can manage his relationship with JPG-GR ... as I recall, they frequently edit in the same areas of the encyclopedia. Perhaps we could do some type of probation or mentorship with an admin?
- What do others think? --Iamunknown 21:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- The blanking and protection of his monobook was done on one occasion - I think TW is a problem for him but his incivility is far worse. I've often interacted with him *during* his disputes and he's been perfectly friendly to me, and turns around to be as rude as possible to his 'opponent'. JGP-GR has been civil in his interactions with NH, despite his attitude, so I wouldn't object to a mentoring relationship there - I think it would be best to have an admin experienced in that area. Calton goes out of his way to belittle Homer, but if the latter is banned from interacting with him (I'd say they should both be, but Calton doesn't go looking for NH, it's the other way around), I'd be satisfied. ~ Riana ⁂ 01:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Reality check: when Neutralhomer stalks my edits by blindly reverting and then proceeds to leave a series of actively insulting messages on that my talk page ("Ma'am"?), then that is NOT "go[ing] out of his way to belittle" him, at least not on this planet. I had not the slightest awareness of his newest incarnation before he inserted HIMSELF into my awareness by the aforementioned behavior. That's a problem with his impulse control and nothing to do with me. --Calton | Talk 03:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Sdfsdfsdfsdfdsdfsdf
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
I draw your attention to User:Sdfsdfsdfsdfdsdfsdf. I'm 99% sure that someone with that user name isn't here to do much good --Capitana (talk) 14:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Blocked for violation of WP:U (lengthy and random username). For future reference, there is a dedicated board for reporting inappropriate usernames at WP:UAA. Sandstein (talk) 14:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Except that we don't block lengthy and random usernames anymore. That clause was removed from the policy after a discussion at WT:U where nobody could come up with a good reason why they should be blocked. While it is true that many users with random-looking usernames are vandals, we are already quite good at blocking vandals for vandalism, and this habit of blocking people for "looking like they were about to vandalize" simply created far too many incorrect blocks. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 07:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
An admin might want to inspect the contributions of this user. They've created a number of pages in the wikipedia space that make little sense. As well as some strange coding on their userpage/subpages. Their name may be a violation of policy too. --ÐeadΣyeДrrow (Talk | Contribs) 15:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- At first blush, the newbie appears to need an education, yes, especially in what's allowable image-wise. Feel free. But a couple useful little stub articles seem to have come from him/her so I'd recommend to be nice for now. The username is fine (I've gotten screamed at for blocking worse). —Wknight94 (talk) 16:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- There's a discussion of "confusing usernames" at the username policy talkpage. Interested editors might like to comment there. Dan Beale-Cocks 17:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody take a look at Image:Questionmark copyright.svg? I'm not sure I understand what's going on there, but this user created it with tags claiming that it's on Commons and protected, which obviously it isn't. If this image really is transcluded in a lot of places and really isn't protected, that's just mischief waiting to happen. Corvus cornixtalk 22:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I had deleted that earlier, and again just now. I listed WP:CSD#I8 as a reason but now that I think about it, I guess it's an WP:CSD#I2 - there is no image. The user is just creating the page for the image, not uploading a new copy. There is a version on Commons which is apparently transcluded a lot and is rightly protected there. Here it doesn't appear to be used that much. But someone should ask why he keeps creating the page all the same. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Cyrus111 making a mess again
Sorry, you archived before I got the opportunity to respond.
Unresolved incident resubmitted because the user came back to insert [71] his undue stuff again without any intention to resolve the disagreement per TALK. Quote:
This user tries to revive Aryans and does not mind to use false references to fill Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA) (and reinsert stubbornly) with WP:UNDUE gibberish:
[72].
Moreover, he tries to put material together in a way that constitutes original research (WP:SYNTH), even though he does not manage for the "simple" reason that his sourced references don't support his claims for a bit. This is POV-pushing and in violation of WP:NOR. To be sure, this does not have anything to do with a justified encyclopedic compilation using proper quotes. One example of this abuse of sources out of three:
- His own quote "The Kurgan's thesis is the predominant model of Indo-European origins and likely the origin of the spread of R1a and R1a1." he sourced with Mallory (1989:185). Apart from the very one-sided inaccuracy of the first part of this statement, Mallory was absolutely agnostic of the gene R1a1 in 1989.
I don't know yet what policy he is violating by putting references around his claims using quotes that don't match, still this looks a pretty serious violation of something.
- An assessment to the abuse of his sourced references you'll find at Talk:Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)#Iran_and_Central_Asia
- We also had discussions here:[73]
- And also here: [74]
Please do something, because nothing works to make him stop.
Rokus01 (talk) 18:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Is this a content dispute? It looks like one, and it is not for Administrator attention (Administrators cannot weigh in on content disputes with their various tools). If it is, then see dispute resolution. Looking at that, I suggest a request for comment. x42bn6 Talk Mess 23:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This is NOT a content dispute. This is trolling and vandalism. The WP:UNDUE information that the user keeps inserting here, without even bothering to TALK or produce sensible arguments, makes reference to sources that say something completely different. The guys from Third Opinion don't have a clue either what's it all about, hence the problem is not what content this user wants to insert so badly: it is about why an article should suffer this kind of abuse and face imminent protection, without first addressing the vandal. Rokus01 (talk) 17:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a content dispute. rudra (talk) 19:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Can you please explain what a diff to a random personal attack of some user (known by the way for quoting attack accounts and sockpuppets) has to do with content? Please don't troll around here to obfuscate this incident. This is about editwarring on undue information abusing references saying something completely different. Rokus01 (talk) 19:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- "Undue information"? "Abusing references"? Spells "content dispute" to me. rudra (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I repeat, content is not the issue. The bad behaviour of the editor is. And why you try to obfuscate this incident again? You'd better spell "content dispute" by reading the procedures:
If a situation needs quick attention, report it to WP:AN or ask for page protection. They will take it from there. [75] (Note: page protection is what I try to avoid)
Why urgent? Because (1) Wikipedia is built upon the principle of representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias, (2) the editor does not bother to discuss the issue or explain his point of view on TALK and (3) is determined to editwar about it. Rokus01 (talk) 21:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Hi. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but I'm posting here just in case. The image was uploaded by Milaneus (talk · contribs), originally as non-free. See his talkpage, a bot notified the user. Also, check Google Images for "Janko Tipsarevic". You will notice there is an identical image from ABC Australia. However, (see his contributions) he later uploaded the image as pd-self. See the current image. However, the image is still non-free because on the ABC Australia site, it gives Getty Images or something like that a credit for the image. I also find it unlikely that he took it himself. Is there a convincing metadata for his pd-self? I'm not very familiar with this stuff, so please look into it. I don't think he knows how to specify a proper fair use rationale, either. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 18:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, well, based in part on his comment to you, I highly doubt that he is the photographer Ryan Pierse who took this picture. Speedy deleted as copyright violation. I will investigate whether this editor's other uploads also need action. Sandstein (talk) 19:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like my talk page content restored
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
[76]. At deletion review it says to contact the admin who removed it, but the admins page is protected and no one who is not an admin can write on it. He deleted my user talk page and then put some stuff back, but stuff he puts back dates only to several weeks ago and I believe the whole thing should be restored. Can I put it on deletion review now since I can't contact him? Abridged talk 18:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I realize this is a complicated situation, but I am somewhat uncomfortable with an admin exercising their Right to Vanish by deleting someone else's talk page. Is there something I am missing that would somehow make this appropriate? — Satori Son 18:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have had a look at it, it seems that the recently VANISHed admin has been amending all reference to themselves - replacing username with "VANISH", etc. I also don't think it is part of the remit for a sysop to part delete anothers talkpage to remove such content. Abridged, can I make a proposal? If I or another admin were to undelete the missing content would you then archive it? I have no idea what relationship you and the other party had, but taking it off your "front" talkpage while allowing access for all other purposes may be a reasonable compromise. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- The material deleted is, frankly, somewhat slanderous, and she refused to let me simply replaace my name with a proxy. Leave it deleted unless she will let me bloody well vanish. - Vanished user 18:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Adam, this is rather disruptive. Please don't edit war with people on their userpage - much less on ArbCOm pages [77]. If you think revisions need to be deleted, ask an impartial admin to look into it. I have some sympathy with your wish to redact your full name, but I recommend you do so with the agreement of other people. Removing even any mention of your Christian name seems a little ridiculous. WjBscribe 19:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Isn't this what oversight is for? —Whig (talk) 19:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oversight is for revealed personal info and the like. This doesn't raise to that level to my understanding. Vanished user, why don't you just apply for a rename and then it would be more palatable to remove your name from all archives? —Wknight94 (talk) 19:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have. To User:Vanished user. - [[WP:VANISH]|Vanished user]]
I'm pretty sure that's not what Wknight meant. — Satori Son 19:09, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Nevermind, I see now that an actual name change request was filed but declined. Sorry. — Satori Son 19:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)- Now I see the rename is becoming contentious too. Figures. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have. To User:Vanished user. - [[WP:VANISH]|Vanished user]]
- Oversight is for revealed personal info and the like. This doesn't raise to that level to my understanding. Vanished user, why don't you just apply for a rename and then it would be more palatable to remove your name from all archives? —Wknight94 (talk) 19:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Questions: Is the current series of changes by Vanished User something that any editor could do if they wished, or does it require administrator power?
- How long does a person retain Admin status after they vanish? Wanderer57 (talk) 19:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Deletion can only be done by administrators. Account renames can only be done by bureaucrats. Changing your name on talk pages and archives can be done by anyone. For some reason, the thread initiator is reverting the name changes. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- How long does a person retain Admin status after they vanish? Wanderer57 (talk) 19:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I restored these edits. Adam, this is not the way to go about this. Request for these deletions to be made by another admin. David D. (Talk) 19:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I am happy to archive (I'll figure out how to do it). There was nothing slanderous against vanished user by the way. If vanisheduser had just asked me, I would have helped him, but I just feel he should have gotten others involved rather than doing this by caveat on his own. Abridged talk 19:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Drawing up attention to oneself is a perfect way to vanish. </sarcasm> Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know these editors but instead of the rudeness and bad attitude going on why can't the editor just take everything out of the archives? It seems like a simple solution then all of the drama and behavior. Just my opinion but to me this is just common sense. --CrohnieGalTalk 20:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, you may have misunderstood. Most of my talk page content was deleted and I had no access to it at all. This is why I posted here, to get the content restored. It has been done, and it has been archived as someone suggested above. Abridged talk 20:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Teddy.Coughlin
User Teddy.Coughlin is constantly adding false information into articles after I told him to stop. When I did so, he kept on adding false and unsourced information.
He is also operating an IP address 24.63.6.149 and doing the same thing.
He was blocked previously (Username and IP address), but it didn't work. So I am requesting a long term block on the username and IP address since final warnings are not working at all. Momusufan (talk) 18:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- He is still continuing to add false and unsourced information as of this writing. Momusufan (talk) 19:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- You need to give us concrete evidence, with WP:DIFFs, that this is about purposeful disruption rather than about a content dispute (which we do not mediate here; see WP:DR for more information). Sandstein (talk) 19:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The IP address is making similar edits as well. Momusufan (talk) 19:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- You have not persuaded me why this needs administrator intervention, and how. These edits look unproblematic to me. If you simply think the user adds wrong information, see WP:DR. You should then only come back here if you can clearly show that this is an issue of systematic vandalism. Sandstein (talk) 20:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Jazzing up text with html
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
A new user has been jazzing up an article (apparently about himself) with html. I reverted it as I presumed it's a violation of WP:STYLE to do this, but I can't actually find anything at the style page that forbids this. Are you allowed to do this or not? Gatoclass (talk) 19:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I'd classify that as disruptive. You should politely inform the user on how we format articles, and report him to WP:AIV if he continues to apply idiosyncratic HTML formatting. Sandstein (talk) 19:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- It was originally listed for deletion, but I tagged it to be speedied, which was rejected, so the deletion discussion has been resumed. The article creator tried to remove the speedy-deletion tags, which I warned them for. I'm still surprised this article was rejected for a speedy deletion- it has five cleanup tags on it, and appears to be an advertisement and non-notable... Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is a blantant copyvio and should be speedy deleted. Lara❤Love 19:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- (after EC)It looks like the jazzed up version was copied/pasted from here. The jazzed up version was then toned down to wikipedia standards but the information remained intact. AngelOfSadness talk 20:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Would anyone object, then, if I tagged it for speedy deletion as a copyvio? Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 20:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- It was originally listed for deletion, but I tagged it to be speedied, which was rejected, so the deletion discussion has been resumed. The article creator tried to remove the speedy-deletion tags, which I warned them for. I'm still surprised this article was rejected for a speedy deletion- it has five cleanup tags on it, and appears to be an advertisement and non-notable... Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Note: Article has already been deleted. Momusufan (talk) 20:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know who rejected that speedy, but I just deleted it. It's not only blatant advertising, it was also a copyright violation in its entirety. A copy/paste including HTML tags of their own website. Unsourceable and placed here only to promote themselves. Lara❤Love 20:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Question - if its his own website, written by himself, why is it a copyright violation? Isn't he simply releasing his work under GNU Free? Avruchtalk 02:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is the bottom of it says: "Created by MK BLITZ Agency. ©2008 Natalia Kruchkevych & Mykhailo Sydorenko. All rights reserved." That's a licence which is incompatible with GFDL/CC. Orderinchaos 08:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Question - if its his own website, written by himself, why is it a copyright violation? Isn't he simply releasing his work under GNU Free? Avruchtalk 02:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
But getting back to the basic principle - where does it actually say you can't use HTML extensively in creating an article? I've always assumed you can't, but I haven't come across anything in the policy pages that says as much. Shouldn't there at least be a line or two in the style guide about this? Gatoclass (talk) 01:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
129.133.124.199 - Continued hostility and incivil behaiviour
Previously posted comments like: "I know it galls your sanctimonious self-image to have to face your own hostility, but that isn't my problem", "...clearly you've been acting like a petulant child..." "Stunning. I mean, if you had no ethical pretensions whatever, then your bitter unscrupulousness would be expected", and so on. Was blocked for uncivil behavior and removing material like this when the editor didn't agree with the references.
After the block ended has continued personal attacks with claiming that he's being stalked, sock puppet allegations, "If you can't curb your aggression, why don't you consider therapy? Your content is wrong, and the game you are playing is borderline psychotic." and continued claims that he's being attacked with no evidence provided of that yet. I'm not sure if a block is appropriate but the editor has been exceedingly hostile toward a bunch of editors. Any ideas? Sasquatch t|c 19:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I see no need for us to accept such conduct under any circumstances. I'm applying a one month {{schoolblock}} to the IP, up from 2 weeks last time, so that the editor may come back with an account if he thinks he's learned to behave civilly. Sandstein (talk) 19:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fully support this block. It's this kind of trollish behavior that can drive away valuable contributors, and we should not tolerate it whatsoever. — Satori Son 20:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I would also highly recommend a block to the user's other IP of abuse, User_talk:159.247.3.210, see the history and talk pages of Theta Nu Epsilon, Wesleyan University, and others where abuse is recent, and in the case of the Theta Nu talk page, ongoing. The last time this user was blocked, s/he shifted to IP 210 and created quite a bit of bad karma at the Theta Nu Epsilon article; that page is now protected indefinitely and the talk page discussion has broken down as a result. Removing this person's input from editing that talk page would, I believe, be a breath of fresh air to the other editors and allow them to resolve some of their difficulties. In any case, thanks so much for attending to this; it's been an ongoing problem across several articles for a long time. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 00:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The same IP was also very abusive on Talk:List of collegiate secret societies for quite a while, as well. They don't seem to understand what being civil is. Corvus cornixtalk 02:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fully support this block. It's this kind of trollish behavior that can drive away valuable contributors, and we should not tolerate it whatsoever. — Satori Son 20:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Backlog From Hell
There's a backlog up the wazoo at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets; I count about 30 cases there. I just posted my first one and am unfamiliar with how SSP works; could we get some aid to whittle it down? -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 20:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
IP editor being disruptive -please help
Editor 201.245.216.200 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is continuing an ongoing wiki-campaign to disruptively add (randomly inaccurate) information to infoboxes of multiple celebrities without discussion. I noticed this latest time here (edit on Michael J. Fox page diff). Some of the other IP's doing the same thing (most likely the same user) here:
- 201.245.218.185 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 201.245.216.227 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 201.245.218.124 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
It's all s/he does, I'm tired of dealing with it, more eyes please. And please check all of the latest contributions. Thanks, R. Baley (talk) 20:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Yamla, R. Baley (talk) 21:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- You might want to file a suspected sock complaint. You may be able to take action against the user via that route as well. Lambton T/C 21:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Jovin Lambton, and thanks for the suggestion. However, I think it's pretty clear that it's the same user here, so the main questions are: 1) Is the level of disruption worth a range block, (2) how many/what type of users will be affected by a range block?, (3) How long to implement it? I don't know any of those things, so in the mean time I'll just save the post, and if/when it comes up again, re-post with the new info as needed. Is it dull? sure. But it's about all I can do on my end. R. Baley (talk) 22:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- OK, but I would support any effort to block this editor if the use of multiple IPs has had the effect of generating false consensus. Lambton T/C 22:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Jovin Lambton, and thanks for the suggestion. However, I think it's pretty clear that it's the same user here, so the main questions are: 1) Is the level of disruption worth a range block, (2) how many/what type of users will be affected by a range block?, (3) How long to implement it? I don't know any of those things, so in the mean time I'll just save the post, and if/when it comes up again, re-post with the new info as needed. Is it dull? sure. But it's about all I can do on my end. R. Baley (talk) 22:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Update: disruption resumes
This editor has started back up again (though someone reverted before I noticed it myself on the MJF page). The IP address is:
200.119.56.153 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Thanks for any help. R. Baley (talk) 21:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Anon IP - incivility, refusal to discuss, what to do?
Hi there. At Palestinian people I'm dealing with an anon IP that has twice accused me of being a "mossad agent" [81] [82], despite having asked him after the first time to avoid personal attacks. He is also repeatedly insisting on inserting text, unsourced and poorly composed into the introduction, without respecting the fact that almost three months of discussion went into formulating the first sentence of said introduction. I don't know how to deal with this. I've asked him to discuss on his talk page. His reply (to the negative) is here. I don't want to revert him again (I already have twice and I'm not into edit-warring). The article content is degraded by his edits and he won't discuss alternatives. (See talk page section here: [83]) Please help. Tiamuttalk 20:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've reverted the article as the changes are messing up the article's appearance. Nakon 20:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- If the ip reverts/re-introduces their text without discussion I suggest warning them that they are editing against consensus, that per Bold, Revert, Discuss they have been reverted and any changes made without discussion will be reverted as vandalism/disruption. Following such a final warning you can a) revert without fear of violating 3RR, and b)report transgression to WP:AIV for admin attention (which will likely be quicker than coming back here). Any report to AIV should mention both the existing consensus and this discussion for quicker resolution. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you both so much for your help and advice. He seems to have calmed down now and is engaging in some discussion. I am hoping that will last. Again, thank you. Tiamuttalk 21:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- On a personal note, this last week, besides being called a "Mossad agent" as above, I was also accused of being a "racist" against Israelis [84] by a user that was subsequently blocked. Can't please anybody these days! Tiamuttalk 21:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- hmmmm... A mossad double agent? An anti mossad mossad agent? Possibly even worse than that, a NPOV warrior! ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
is this disruptive?
Bamford (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) And Tons of IP's, is making many, many, many, many changes without leaving comments or edit summaries and clogging up recent changes and the page histories of National Policing Improvement Agency - (created by Amcluesent (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)), List of Special Response Units, Serious Organised Crime Agency and others. Attempts have been made on his talk page and the editor claims he works for the NPIA, see [85][86][87][88]. All the accounts and IP's have similar edit patterns. I've reported this to Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#National_Policing_Improvement_Agency. Although many of the edits seem good, i don't think ive seen his type of editing before--Hu12 (talk) 21:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've looked it over and am AGF'ing it. I have made similar comments to those as yours (i.e. please use the preview function) and made it clear that I am a Brit, and made some hopefully helpful suggestions, so they don't think they are being hassled by a bunch of ex-Colonials. I haven't mentioned it there, but I think they were a little upset at being referred to as a vandal. I must admit it was quite satisfying to tell a
rozzerperson connected with law enforcement what they should be doing - and one from the Met, at that! LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)- If you are asking if "making many, many, many, many changes without leaving comments or edit summaries and clogging up recent changes and the page histories of National Policing Improvement Agency -" is disruptive, is it that you are trying to get someone to agree that it is disruptive so the person can be banned? Is what you describe disruptive, the answer is no. It's more like a not so good style of editing. Spevw (talk) 22:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think your reading a bit much into the question, obvious disruption would have resulted in my blocking him myself. When editors attempt to contact a user about the particulars of certain behaviors with little or no result, community input is necessary. Example being LessHeard vanU's comment may be able to establish communication better than those of us who have already tried.--Hu12 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Since User:Bamford is the only COI-affected editor currently using an account to edit this group of articles, I invited him to join the discussion over at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#National Policing Improvement Agency. Meanwhile I have suggested some other ideas for handling this, in the same noticeboard entry, including interim semi-protection of the articles and Bamford's agreement to some precautions about the COI. If you have ideas for handling this please leave a comment over there. EdJohnston (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think your reading a bit much into the question, obvious disruption would have resulted in my blocking him myself. When editors attempt to contact a user about the particulars of certain behaviors with little or no result, community input is necessary. Example being LessHeard vanU's comment may be able to establish communication better than those of us who have already tried.--Hu12 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you are asking if "making many, many, many, many changes without leaving comments or edit summaries and clogging up recent changes and the page histories of National Policing Improvement Agency -" is disruptive, is it that you are trying to get someone to agree that it is disruptive so the person can be banned? Is what you describe disruptive, the answer is no. It's more like a not so good style of editing. Spevw (talk) 22:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Ang Lee & Lust, Caution (film) TW vs CN disputes
There seems to be a bit of a cold war going on at Ang Lee, Lust, Caution (film) and probably other, related places. In particular, User:TheAsianGURU has made multiple edits to Lust, Caution (film) to remove or dilute references to Taiwan, such as here. I got involved when I noticed that they had removed a sourced fact and used a misleading edit summary. Can someone step in before this gets out of hand? Thanks. David Lodge (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think you mean this edit. The one you point to is an innocuous edit by an anon IP. Wikidemo (talk) 23:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I meant this one, which I have corrected above. Your diff is the edit that got me involved in this. Thanks. I see you got bit by this already [89]. David Lodge (talk) 16:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Admin Arthur Rubin blocked again for 3RR
I've blocked Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for WP:3RR on Alex Jones (radio) per this 3RR report. Since this editor is an administrator and has been previously blocked before for edit warring on the same article, I'd like for the community to see if there is a possible need for an article probation or other restrictions for this editor. Thanks, Nakon 23:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- My opinion is that we should leave it at this block for now. Being blocked twice for edit warring on the same an article within a month is a bad sign, true, but I don't think it indicates a need for anything beyond a slightly longer block. If it continues, we may end up back here, but I think we can see if he'll stop after this. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 23:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is of course bad practive for any editor to edit war, especially an administrator who should be setting an example to the community. Although the edit warring took place on the the same article as the previous block, we shouldn't hold the fact that he's an administrator prejudice our actions here - how would we react if this was an editor without +sysop? We'd give them their block and that would be all - we wouldn't suggest community restrictions against them on an article. I agree that a block was reuquired, would you consider reducing it down to 48 hours rather than 3 days? It's more in line with similar blocks in the past (yeah, I know it's a pedantic issue). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryan Postlethwaite (talk • contribs) 23:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- I notice User:Hereward77 was blocked for edit warring on the same article just a few weeks ago and made at least 3 reverts, as did User:Snowfire51 but who has not been previously blocked. I know we hold admins to a higher conduct standard, but neither of these other users were even warned for edit warring. Mr.Z-man 00:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I only made three edits to this article, and tried to get this editor to discuss them repeatedly. I warned him he had already violated WP:3RR, and he blew me off and continued. I stopped at three, and even though I disagree with something on the page now, I have elected to bring it up and clarify it on the talk page, rather than violate WP:3RR. I had no desire to enter into an edit war, I tried to discuss things to gain consensus and this user was not interested in anything that took his edits off of the page. Snowfire51 (talk) 00:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and blocked User:Hereward77 for edit warring as well. He didn't technically violate 3RR, but multiple previous edit warring blocks including one for edit warring on the same article means that he should definitely know better.
- To Snowfire51: edit warring does not only become a policy violation after the 3rd revert, it is disruptive from the first. Consider this a warning. Mr.Z-man 00:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Warning received. I stand by my contributions as evidence that I understand policy, and will uphold it in the future. No hard feelings. Snowfire51 (talk) 00:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I only made three edits to this article, and tried to get this editor to discuss them repeatedly. I warned him he had already violated WP:3RR, and he blew me off and continued. I stopped at three, and even though I disagree with something on the page now, I have elected to bring it up and clarify it on the talk page, rather than violate WP:3RR. I had no desire to enter into an edit war, I tried to discuss things to gain consensus and this user was not interested in anything that took his edits off of the page. Snowfire51 (talk) 00:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Do not we hold admins to a much higher standard? Two 3RR blocks in such a short period of time while being an admin is shocking and really very disturbing. What does the community suggest as an appropriate course of action? Bstone (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It would be unprecedented (and logically flawed) to desysop an admin for edit-warring on a non-protected page, if indeed that's what you're implying. — CharlotteWebb 19:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd advise that the user takes an optional Wikibreak; I think some cooling down is needed if this has happened twice recently. Hopefully this doesn't happen again. Master of Puppets Call me MoP!☺ 19:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Arthur needs to take a break or risk losing his bit next time. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Arthur Rubin used admin tools while blocked?
Was this block issued by Rubin while he was still blocked? Can a blocked admin still admin? Lawrence § t/e 23:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thread reactivation (JzG blocks)
Please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Review of three of the above blocks, where I've reactivated a thread that people may have moved on from, so I'm notifying people here. Carcharoth (talk) 23:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Various users stalking and harassing User:Charles
Hello. Over the past few weeks, several people have been harassing User:Charles, calling him a sockpuppet, troll, and various other things, impeding his ability to work on the encyclopedia. I have dealt with this situation twice, short blocks had no effect whatsoever. Please see here and User talk:Keilana/Archive2#Complaint about a stalker for more information. I do think there's a possibility of sockpuppetry between the users mentioned (not Charles), and would recommend an indef block on Tfoxworth (talk · contribs) and I vonH (talk · contribs). Thank you. Keilana|Parlez ici 00:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for filing this report, Keilana. Tfoxworth initially was the subject of a report here a year or so ago (my memory is a little fuzzy on that matter), but it didn't go far because the report was not really noticed (much more must have been going on at the time) a pattern had not yet really developed and it certainly appeared then to be a content dispute. However, over a period of weeks and months it developed into stalking behaviour involving this user, another user who claims to be his wife (I vonH, and therefore his meatpuppet, at the least, on the basis of tag-team reversions and stalking) and a number of proven IP addresses, all of which can be viewed at Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Tfoxworth. Initially, the sockpuppets were all tagged and categorized as a means of organizing a report which was filed more or less at the same time as a previous WP:AN/I report. Over the passing weeks and months, Tfoxworth's and I vonH's behaviour has been consistently disruptive and aggressive and has usually been targeted at me but now also at others who may or may not share my viewpoint. More specifically, I should say people who oppose the two users' viewpoints are those who are targeted. This is a long-term abuse situation that has been steadily going on and I truly feel it should be dealt with accordingly with a final ban, discussed here as a record of the situation. There have also been a number of other similar stalking editors in the past that seem to arrive in a cascading effect but I have not been able to make as clear of a connection between any of them as the obvious connection between the presumed Mr. and Mrs. Foxworth. Charles 02:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Both Tfoxworth and I vonH have *just* turned up reverting a lot of the changes made to a number of articles. Charles 02:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- For example, see Jorge de Bagration. Tfoxworth has removed newspaper citations. Pairadox (talk) 08:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
An editor abusing Rollback privileges
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Undead warrior (talk · contribs) has created a number of footer templates for music artists which are OK except the user did not use the correct/standard/consensus colour format and instead has chosen the "more metal" black colour scheme. No big problem. An attempt was made to correct the colour format but the user has decided to vio WP:OWN on the templates and is using his newly acquired rollback permissions to revert constructive edits which are clearly not vandalism. Some of these edits are [90][91][92][93][94]. The user left a talk page post here in which he states "If you change the colour I will just keep changing them back" Which shows that the user intends to continue to violate WP:OWN and may also ignore WP:3RR to do so. And... for these reverts... is using the 'Rollback' function which is intended for vandal hunting and not edit warring. Can someone take the time to explain WP:OWN, WP:3RR and the proper use of 'rollback' to this user. Perhaps a little WP:CIVIL explanation would help as well. 156.34.234.144 (talk) 01:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that this appears to be an abuse of the rollback privileges. This is not clear vandalism that is being committed and he even admits this himself when he says that the changing of the colors is a matter of "personal preference". I think his rights should be removed. I'll leave this here for a bit longer before I do just to get input from other admins first. Metros (talk) 01:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah it clearly looks like abuse of rollback. Removing it seems reasonable. Friday (talk) 01:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- based on the evidence given, the editor is using the rollback tool for edit warring behavior. Jeepday (talk) 01:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Additionally the editor was given the rules that Rollback can only be used to revert vandalism only, and not good faith edits. [95] prior to engaging the inappropriate behavior. Jeepday (talk) 01:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ryan Postlethwaite got to it just as I was about to edit it. Metros (talk) 01:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse fully. Daniel (talk) 01:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yup, clearly a misuse, hence why I removed it. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, it appears editor is using rollback to edit war. Removal is very reasonable.--Ѕandahl 01:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, also, and endorse Ryan's removal. Sarah 01:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ryan Postlethwaite got to it just as I was about to edit it. Metros (talk) 01:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It would have been nice to have recieved a little bit of warning before being revoked. The warning came and then the privelages were removed. (i might have spelled that wrong) Either way, I did not know that the rollback tool should not have been used as I had used it. I thought it was being used justly. I had warned the user that his edits were un-constructive. I had reverted them previously and told him where to find the standard template. He just kept on re-doing his old edits without justification. Undeath (talk) 01:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Er, so you didn't read the message left upon being given rollback, nor did you read the extremely clear instructions at the top of the WP:RFR page when you filed your request? I'm sorry, I hardly consider that Ryan's fault. Daniel (talk) 01:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The user's edits were unconstructive because they were at odds with you? GlassCobra 01:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't see the notice because after I had edited, I had to wrestle my match. I read the instructons, and I thought that I had given fair warning before I reverted using rollback. I say that his edits were unconstructive becasue they were accomplishing nothing. He just changed the color around. Plus, I have been trying to convert certain templates over to the new template, which, when I was going through this, I would get an edit conflict thus loosing my changes. I have now successfully(spelling?) created the new version of the template for Sentenced. Undeath (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- And after re-doing another template due to another edit conflict, I have successfully(spelling?) created Satyricon Undeath (talk) 02:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It would have been nice to have recieved a little bit of warning before being revoked. The warning came and then the privelages were removed. (i might have spelled that wrong) Either way, I did not know that the rollback tool should not have been used as I had used it. I thought it was being used justly. I had warned the user that his edits were un-constructive. I had reverted them previously and told him where to find the standard template. He just kept on re-doing his old edits without justification. Undeath (talk) 01:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- (resetting indent) And "unconstructive" is so clearly the same thing as "vandalism"... also, why were the edit unconstructive? Is standardizing color unconstructive? Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 03:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm having that very conversation with the editor right now at User_talk:Metros#Templates. My main question is why is it "constructive" to make the templates a non-standard color (black) but "unconstructive" to make it the standard colors. Metros (talk) 04:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Response to Nousernamesleft I am trying to state that I warned him that if he was not going to standardize the entire template, like I was in the process doing, then not to do anything to it at all. I kept getting the same edit conflict after a long process of work on a template and, naturally, I became very frustrated. I believe this has been blown completely out of proportion. I made one mistake, or 5 I guess if you want to go with Metros. I made the rollbacks in a very, very short period of time. The warning was given after that(also after I had signed off), and that warning gave me no time whatsoever to redeem myself. Note, before my so called "misuse of rollback", I had used it like it I was supposed to do. Undeath (talk) 04:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's where you're wrong. The "warning" was issued to you upon applying for and receiving your rollback privileges. The warning on how to use it and not use it is on the application page as well as in the notice sent to you on your talk page when the rights were enabled. Metros (talk) 12:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The warning was not sent until after the damage was done. At 1:23 you sent the notice, which was after the damage was done, and then at 1:36 the rollback privelages were removed, which, I might point out, I had not made any rollbacks between that time. I had not made a bad rollback between the warning left on my talkpage and the time it was taken away. You can look at my cotributions yourself if you don't believe me. Also, I KNOW that the "how to use it and how to not use it" is on the main page. I had stated that, IMO, I was reverting vandalism. Now, that, by the sound of it, is not your opinion, but it was mine at the time. I was doing what I thought was the right thing. Undeath (talk) 16:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's where you're wrong. The "warning" was issued to you upon applying for and receiving your rollback privileges. The warning on how to use it and not use it is on the application page as well as in the notice sent to you on your talk page when the rights were enabled. Metros (talk) 12:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Response to Nousernamesleft I am trying to state that I warned him that if he was not going to standardize the entire template, like I was in the process doing, then not to do anything to it at all. I kept getting the same edit conflict after a long process of work on a template and, naturally, I became very frustrated. I believe this has been blown completely out of proportion. I made one mistake, or 5 I guess if you want to go with Metros. I made the rollbacks in a very, very short period of time. The warning was given after that(also after I had signed off), and that warning gave me no time whatsoever to redeem myself. Note, before my so called "misuse of rollback", I had used it like it I was supposed to do. Undeath (talk) 04:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm having that very conversation with the editor right now at User_talk:Metros#Templates. My main question is why is it "constructive" to make the templates a non-standard color (black) but "unconstructive" to make it the standard colors. Metros (talk) 04:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
NLT Block/Blanking review
Would appreciate another set of eyes. TheDivineDiva (talk · contribs) added fairly clear legal threats to the Captain & Tennille and Toni Tennille articles and talk pages. After a warning, the editor placed another legal threat and I disabled the account. The Captain & Tennille article was also blanked, which I initially reverted. On review; the article does lack sources and I would feel it falls under the BLP guidelines since the text deals with the group members in some detail so I "reset" it myself. Any other opinions are welcome; and admin actions are open for review. Kuru talk 01:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm actually in email contect with legal representatives of Tennille - we're making good progress at the minute regarding a compormise and what to do with the article. I deleted Toni Tennille the other day as a BLP violation as it was completely unsourced - I'm currently looking at the Captain & Tennille article and considering what to do with it. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like the final warning was given at 1:09 [96]and the editors last edit was to Toni Tennille at 1:06 [97] then they edited to the talk page at 1:12 [98], would seem to a a copy an paste so, would seem they had a chance to read your comment before final post. I might suggest just a cooling off block of a few hours, and longer later if the behavior reoccurs, the possiblity does exist that they did not see the warning until after the 1:12 edit particularity if they did not refresh a screen between 1:09 and 1:12. Jeepday (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please be assured that a block would not help the situation. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Alas, I cannot react to off-wiki negotiations; only the on-wiki manifestations. If they will cease with the legal threats, I'd have zero problems with an immediate unblock. Alternatively, an unblock performed by you on the assumption that they will understand the situation. Kuru talk 02:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I didn't realise you'd already blocked the account. Your block was certainly within policy so it should stand for now. I've emailed the party again - hopefully I'll get a favourable response and we can get a consensus on the matter. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I do not foresee any reasoning behind the deletion of most of the text of the article on Toni Tennille. There did not appear to be anything libelous in the article, and the only issues were in Marine Jourdan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) having placed ownership on the article in 2006, with a nice bit of text that said he/she was the primary author, which had only recently devolved into blanking the entirety of the article. Is this self-proclaimed fan the "legal representatives" of the Captain & Tennille? Because if so, I think we should restore the article to where it was instead of saying "This isn't sourced entirely; let's remove text that isn't a problem to its subject."—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's more complex than that, and not something I can really discuss on-wiki. It's Tennnilles legal representitives that have issues with the content that some people have been adding to the article. One of those is Marine Jourdan, and the IP's that have been used by them. As it was unsourced, I see no reason to restore it. Let's start again with a whole new page and get it upto standard without the problematic edits that were in the history. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I do not foresee any reasoning behind the deletion of most of the text of the article on Toni Tennille. There did not appear to be anything libelous in the article, and the only issues were in Marine Jourdan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) having placed ownership on the article in 2006, with a nice bit of text that said he/she was the primary author, which had only recently devolved into blanking the entirety of the article. Is this self-proclaimed fan the "legal representatives" of the Captain & Tennille? Because if so, I think we should restore the article to where it was instead of saying "This isn't sourced entirely; let's remove text that isn't a problem to its subject."—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I didn't realise you'd already blocked the account. Your block was certainly within policy so it should stand for now. I've emailed the party again - hopefully I'll get a favourable response and we can get a consensus on the matter. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Alas, I cannot react to off-wiki negotiations; only the on-wiki manifestations. If they will cease with the legal threats, I'd have zero problems with an immediate unblock. Alternatively, an unblock performed by you on the assumption that they will understand the situation. Kuru talk 02:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please be assured that a block would not help the situation. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've looked again, and I see no conceivably problematic content. Just which paragraphs were objected to? Email me if if that's sensitive, because I cannot imagine what it would be. DGG (talk) 17:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. The only thing I can see is that Marine Jourdan is "C & T's biggest fan for 30 years" which does not mean that she is their legal counsel. Just because content was sourced, doesn't mean it was problematic. All I think this is is that Marine Jourdan annoyed that the work she put into the article is not proclaimed in bold text before you read the article and that she attempted to revoke her GFDL on it.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like the final warning was given at 1:09 [96]and the editors last edit was to Toni Tennille at 1:06 [97] then they edited to the talk page at 1:12 [98], would seem to a a copy an paste so, would seem they had a chance to read your comment before final post. I might suggest just a cooling off block of a few hours, and longer later if the behavior reoccurs, the possiblity does exist that they did not see the warning until after the 1:12 edit particularity if they did not refresh a screen between 1:09 and 1:12. Jeepday (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Admin Nishkid64 blocking users based on favoritism
I have filed a 3RR report on Bakasuprman (talk · contribs) here only to find out that Admin Nishkid64 says he is trying to work this out with Bakaman and not have him blocked here. However, when I went over the 3RR, he blocked me instantly here. This is straight out favoritism and an abuse of power on this admin's part. It is not fair that one editor can have such privileges to avoid being blocked for 3RR violations. Wiki Raja (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You have not presented any evidence that this is due to "favoritism". The circumstances may have been different. Alternatively, he may have simply taken two different courses of action at two different times; there's no algorithm for how to deal with 3RR reports. -- tariqabjotu 03:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- With all due respect if one has broke the 3RR rule, doesn't that entitled the editor to be blocked? Correct me if I am wrong, but on the 3RR page it states, "The three-revert rule (often referred to as 3RR) is a policy that applies to all Wikipedians, and is intended to prevent edit warring: An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. A revert means undoing the actions of another editor, whether involving the same or different material each time. Any editor who breaches the rule may be blocked from editing for up to 24 hours in the first instance, and longer for repeated or aggravated violations. The rule applies per editor." This was found on the 3RR page here. So, please let me know if 3RR only applies to particular editors (race, caste, creed, sex, nationality). Thank you. Wiki Raja (talk) 03:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- And doesn't the same exact page you just cited say the following: "Just because someone has violated the three revert rule does not mean they will be blocked. It is up to the administrator's discretion whether to take action."? So, in this case, Nishkid64 made some judgment here. Metros (talk) 03:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wiki Raja, I blocked you in September for disruptive edit warring over the addition of WikiProject templates on talk pages. In January 2008, you violated 3RR over the same WikiProject template on an article talk page. I had told you before to seek a consensus before adding those templates back. You failed to engage in such discussion and you violated 3RR, so I blocked you. Also, I did not handle the 3RR report you filed. Bakasupraman contacted me off-wiki hours before, and asked for my thoughts. I reviewed the situation, told him he had violated 3RR, and issued warnings to both Baka and Relata refero. I chose not to block the users because they were engaged in discussion on the article talk page. I was going to protect the page, but I decided to leave it alone for the time being. Nishkid64 (talk) 03:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- So, would it be ok for me to edit war just as long as I have dialog on the page? Wiki Raja (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- 3RR violations are handled separately. You engaged in repeated disruptive edit warring, so I blocked you. Bakasupraman has a history of that behavior, but I didn't think it was appropriate to block him (and Relata) when they were both engaging in serious discussion on the talk page. If you had been engaging in serious discussion and violated 3RR, an admin might consider just protecting the page, instead of blocking. However, like I said, it's an admin's call. Different situations need different action. Nishkid64 (talk) 03:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think I quite get you on this matter. You state that I did not engage in dialog, when I did engage in dialog here in the section titled Removing WikiProject Templates. But, wait a minute, for some odd reason, my discussion is not shown in the history section here. Now, can you tell me what's going on? Wiki Raja (talk) 04:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Umm...yes, you didn't engage in any serious discussion that would achieve a consensus in your favor. That's why I blocked you twice. You told them not to remove the templates, but I don't see where they commented. The history wasn't deleted at any point, so it's possible that the discussion took place elsewhere. Also, there seems a consensus to not include the template. If the other editors remove the template, do not undo their edits. Get them into discussion, and try to convince them. If that doesn't work, then you could try consulting a larger audience (don't go as far as forum shopping, though). Nishkid64 (talk) 04:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's because they didn't bother to reply and continued reverting. When one was coming close to a 3RR, they get another account to continue the revert. Wiki Raja (talk) 05:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Umm...yes, you didn't engage in any serious discussion that would achieve a consensus in your favor. That's why I blocked you twice. You told them not to remove the templates, but I don't see where they commented. The history wasn't deleted at any point, so it's possible that the discussion took place elsewhere. Also, there seems a consensus to not include the template. If the other editors remove the template, do not undo their edits. Get them into discussion, and try to convince them. If that doesn't work, then you could try consulting a larger audience (don't go as far as forum shopping, though). Nishkid64 (talk) 04:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think I quite get you on this matter. You state that I did not engage in dialog, when I did engage in dialog here in the section titled Removing WikiProject Templates. But, wait a minute, for some odd reason, my discussion is not shown in the history section here. Now, can you tell me what's going on? Wiki Raja (talk) 04:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- 3RR violations are handled separately. You engaged in repeated disruptive edit warring, so I blocked you. Bakasupraman has a history of that behavior, but I didn't think it was appropriate to block him (and Relata) when they were both engaging in serious discussion on the talk page. If you had been engaging in serious discussion and violated 3RR, an admin might consider just protecting the page, instead of blocking. However, like I said, it's an admin's call. Different situations need different action. Nishkid64 (talk) 03:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- So, would it be ok for me to edit war just as long as I have dialog on the page? Wiki Raja (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wiki Raja, I blocked you in September for disruptive edit warring over the addition of WikiProject templates on talk pages. In January 2008, you violated 3RR over the same WikiProject template on an article talk page. I had told you before to seek a consensus before adding those templates back. You failed to engage in such discussion and you violated 3RR, so I blocked you. Also, I did not handle the 3RR report you filed. Bakasupraman contacted me off-wiki hours before, and asked for my thoughts. I reviewed the situation, told him he had violated 3RR, and issued warnings to both Baka and Relata refero. I chose not to block the users because they were engaged in discussion on the article talk page. I was going to protect the page, but I decided to leave it alone for the time being. Nishkid64 (talk) 03:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- And doesn't the same exact page you just cited say the following: "Just because someone has violated the three revert rule does not mean they will be blocked. It is up to the administrator's discretion whether to take action."? So, in this case, Nishkid64 made some judgment here. Metros (talk) 03:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- With all due respect if one has broke the 3RR rule, doesn't that entitled the editor to be blocked? Correct me if I am wrong, but on the 3RR page it states, "The three-revert rule (often referred to as 3RR) is a policy that applies to all Wikipedians, and is intended to prevent edit warring: An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. A revert means undoing the actions of another editor, whether involving the same or different material each time. Any editor who breaches the rule may be blocked from editing for up to 24 hours in the first instance, and longer for repeated or aggravated violations. The rule applies per editor." This was found on the 3RR page here. So, please let me know if 3RR only applies to particular editors (race, caste, creed, sex, nationality). Thank you. Wiki Raja (talk) 03:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I doubt that Nishikid is practicing "favoritism". But sometimes I feel that decisions on WP:3rr are handed down (by many admins, not just a particular one) quite inconsistently.Bless sins (talk) 05:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You doubt? Then that means we're not really sure of that. BTW, can there be an explanation as to why my two previous posts which can be clearly seen here under Removing WikiProject templates is not showing in the history section here? Wiki Raja (talk) 05:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know what you're talking about; all of your posts are in the history. -- tariqabjotu 05:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Please take a look at the dates in bold face below really close and show me that it appears in the history.
03:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC):
06:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC):
Wiki Raja (talk) 05:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I replied on Wiki Raja's talk page. -- tariqabjotu 06:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
In case anyone is puzzled by the reference to me. please do have a look at re:3rr. I do think Nishkid has mismanaged a few situations, particularly in his desire to shield someone who really should have been banned by ArbCom three times by now, but I think he's already been madea aware of the problems. I do trust his off-wiki discussions with Bakasuprman will be followed by more careful investigation in future; its not as if Bakasuprman has much of a reputation for accuracy. Relata refero (talk) 07:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not shielding anyone. As I told you already, you made an uncivil comment, and I warned you. Dealing with problematic users doesn't give you a right to violate WP:CIVILITY. Don't make unsubstantiated baseless comments about my actions. Also, I investigated the matter, as I already told you on your talk page. Drop the irrelevant side commentary on Bakasupraman. He has issues with edit warring and incivility, but don't tarnish his contributions, many of which have been beneficial to this encyclopedia. Nishkid64 (talk) 08:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I didnt violate WP:CIVIL, as I have explained at length on your talkpage. There was simply no other way of making that point.
- What is an unsubstantiated baseless comment? I have based everything I have said on what you have told me specifically on my talkpage - in a conversation linked above, so anyone can check. Dont make unsubstantiated baseless comments accusing me of making unsubstantiated baseless comments:)
- And "side commentary" on a seriously disruptive, POV-pushing, habitually uncivil user who violated 3RR yesterday and didn't even care is hardly irrelevant at AN/I. His mysterious positive contributions, which consist as far as I can see of 50 minimally researched stubs in one subject area where he is not an expert, are not really Giano standard, you know. Relata refero (talk) 08:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Don't forget about Bakasuprman's previous edit summaries on Muslims, Christians, and Jews in the following statements:[99][100][101][102][103][104][105][106][107][108][109].
- This individual has something against folks who do not belong to the same faith as this user which was also the case with the recent 3RR this person committed. Further, the admin who let him of the hook makes me feel that he also favors editors of the same interests. Admin or not, I'll have to state that there sure is a lot of favoritism going on in here. Wiki Raja (talk) 08:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment - Now, which is lower? Wikiraja trying to divert attention from himself or Relata refero taking a snipe at Bakasuprman from behind Wikiraja? Bakasuprman has been through arbcoms and come out clean. He has been upheld as an editor in good standing by arbcoms more than once. If RR doesnt like it.. just too bad but just dont bring it here and waste people's time. Sarvagnya 21:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Bakasuprman has benefited due to dirty admins playing the favoritism game. Birds of the feather flock together. Wiki Raja (talk) 21:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Call for block of Relata refero
Relata refero is an obvious sock puppet account which started editing Wikipedia in October 2007. Since then this user has targeted a certain number of users who edit controversial pages. The sole purpose of this sockpuppet has been to cause disruption and enter into disputes. Therefore, a block of this account is called for under the Good hand, bad hand sock policy, perhaps that might encourage this user to login through their original account. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 08:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Who is he a sock of and who is being targeted? Lawrence § t/e 08:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps we can apply this Good hand, bad hand sock policy on the Sarvagnya/Gnanapiti accounts. After all, both usernames have been confirmed to belong to the same person here. What's fair is fair. Wiki Raja (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Huh? Sir Nick, this is a pretty wild accusation and would need a lot more substantiating. For all I can see, Relata refero is an excellent editor with a wide spectrum of interests. Yes, his early contributions of last October indicate he was probably not a newbie at the time, but that doesn't mean he is an abusive sock. He could be a reincarnation of a user in good standing who left. He could even be a legitimate alternate account, although I doubt that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sir Nicholas is talking rubbish, as usual. There's no reason to block Relata refero: he's been doing a good job in a number of problematic areas. Unless you can prove to me, via checkuser or otherwise, he's an abusive sockpuppet, I will strongly oppose any suggested sanctions. I'm aware that some think he's User:Hornplease, but, with all due respect, Hornplease was not banned, had a virtually clean block log, and has stopped editing anyway! This would be a legitimate reincarnation - and I've seen no compelling evidence to suggest Relata is Hornplease anyway. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 10:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- As a matter of fact, Sir Nick is standing right next to the guy here who blocked and then unblocked the confirmed socks Sarvagnya/Gnanapiti. There's a lot of hanky panky going on around here on Wikipedia. It's time for a serious cleanup before this gets out of hand. Wiki Raja (talk) 10:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not usually quick to shout "admin abuse" or "cabal", but Sir Nick is really pushing it here. Relata refero is an excellent encyclopedia editor, and I'd trade ten Sir Nicks for one of those any day. dab (𒁳) 11:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The accusations against Relata refero are baseless and absurd accusations. And I will echo Wiki Raja's comments above. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Nick, please strike this attack on Relata Refera unless you can provide hard evidence that the general community can review. Lawrence § t/e 18:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Unlikely. Wouldn't litigiousness befit a lawyer in training? rudra (talk) 19:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Note that Gnanapiti and Sarvagnya were initially confirmed as sockpuppets because of geographic similarities. A later CU showed that they were indeed two separate users. Nishkid64 (talk) 19:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Come on. This dirty cover up is getting so old. Wiki Raja (talk) 21:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wiki Raja is begging to be blocked himself, by raking this issue up again, for no reasons, and without having any recent findings. Per the previous discussion with another admin, he is not supposed to bring this up again, but he has violated that. See the discussion, here. As I have mentioned in "Wiki Raja" section above, these kind of disruption is happening time and again, and there is absolutely no use to Wikipedia with all these, and is just consuming time of everyone. I call for an immediate block on User:Wiki Raja. Thanks - KNM Talk 22:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- This mobster and bully mentality on Wikipedia has got to stop! Wiki Raja (talk) 22:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wiki Raja is begging to be blocked himself, by raking this issue up again, for no reasons, and without having any recent findings. Per the previous discussion with another admin, he is not supposed to bring this up again, but he has violated that. See the discussion, here. As I have mentioned in "Wiki Raja" section above, these kind of disruption is happening time and again, and there is absolutely no use to Wikipedia with all these, and is just consuming time of everyone. I call for an immediate block on User:Wiki Raja. Thanks - KNM Talk 22:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Come on. This dirty cover up is getting so old. Wiki Raja (talk) 21:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Not commenting on Nishkid64 or Wiki Raja, Relato refero is a very serious and dedicated wikipedian. He regularly shares his thoughts on WP:RSN and other policy making venues. While he has been involved in disputes (I can name you admins that have been involved in ugly disputes), his overall contribution to wikipedia is positive. No evidence above has been provided that would suggest otherwise.Bless sins (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- do not endorse - I do not endorse any sanction against relata refera. the user is a good editor, who works hard for the encyclopedia. there are many others who should be shown the door prior to relata refera. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 22:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Soapboxing
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Fairdeal08 (talk · contribs) has apparently decided to employ WP as a personal soapbox -- or perhaps "pulpit" is a better word -- by continuing to insert a personal essay about belief into Talk:Agnosticism, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Atheism, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity, and, finally, in article space, at What to believe. He's been given multiple instances of advice as to why this is inappropriate, but shows no sign or willingness to understand said advice [110] [111] [112]. I don't think he's here to contribute, personally, just hijack, but if someone wants to take run at him, be my guest. --Calton | Talk 02:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Article has now been deleted as patent nonsense, and I was about to do that myself. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 02:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Indef block review of User:TlatoSMD by Rlevse
I personally agree with this indefinite block, but I think because TlatoSMD has made some contributions worth keeping and has been an editor on the English and German Wikipedia for some time the ban should get wider review. Avruchtalk 02:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's hard to disagree with the blocking admin's rationale left on User talk:TlatoSMD. The disruption and incivility needed to be permanently stamped out. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 03:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I fully support this block, and would have advocated an indefinite block on Tlato long ago. Keilana|Parlez ici 03:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with this block. Just as 3RR isn't licence to revert an article 3 times, everyday, no matter what, DRV isn't a forum to rehash every XfD that closed against one's interests. Also, the continued incivility from this user WP:NPA and his attempts at WP:GAMEING the system are a major issue. MBisanz talk 03:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Strongly endorse the block per the sound rationale left by the blocking admin. TlatoSMD is a disruptive SPA who has tried so hard to game the system for weeks now, and has repeatedly disrupted deletion processes in an attempt to push a POV. The incivility is just icing on the cake. --Coredesat 03:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse per my comment on the user's talkpage [113]. Disruptive and combative user. WjBscribe 03:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- An indef block is excessive - I would recommend a temporary block. (The following rationale for this has been copied from TlatoSMD's Talk Page)
- While it's true that TlatoSMD can use a bit more tact in his commentary from time to time, indef blocking seems wildly inappropriate in this situation. His confrontational and "snappy" responses and exclamations are a result of what this individual perceives to be unrelenting attacks and POV-pushing by both regular editors and admins. Although he may have stepped out of line several times with his tone and heavy-handed words, I can't say I completely disagree with his interpretation of what has been happening on Wikipedia, especially in regards to PAW articles and their editors, for the past year or so. A great deal of misrepresentation is occurring, biases are clouding both editing and discussion, and a multitude of editors are refusing to engage in direct debate, preferring to completely disregard positions they personally disagree with. The fact that a number of admins have been either apathetic to TlatoSMD's situation or, in fact, engaged in the very same nonconstructive practices just mentioned has frustrated TlatoSMD quite a bit. Placed within such a hostile environment, and ignored by many regular editors and admins alike, TlatoSMD began to pick his words with less tact than is expected. Although some may be correct in asserting that some sort of block is in order, maybe even longer than several days or a week, indefinite blocking this individual would not benefit the project as a whole. Wikipedia will be hurt if it loses yet another intelligent, well-read, and usually civil editor, who's not afraid to speak his mind and to point out policy violations and POV-pushing when they occur, even at the risk of opposing many influential Wikipedians. A temporary block may be in order, so that TlatoSMD rethinks his approach to commentary and regains appreciation for civility, but an indef block will do nothing to improve the quality of Wikipedia or its articles. The controversial PAW articles will definitely suffer, and an indef block will only fuel the growing suspicion that there's censorship taking place on Wikipedia, and that having a controversial take on subjects is a bannable offense. ~ Homologeo (talk) 03:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Now, to respond quickly to the reasons provided by Rlevse for the indef block. First of all, I fail to see any conclusive evidence that TlatoSMD is a single purpose account. Although a great deal of this user's recent edits have focused on PAW articles, his contribution history, via both his current and previous accounts, clearly shows that he has edited a variety of articles. Besides, being an SPA is generally poor grounding (in and of itself) for indef blocking. Next, his "snappiness" and (what can be deemed by some) uncivil behavior can be addressed with a temporary block - no indef block is necessary. Besides, this is only the third block this editor ever got, and all the blocks were recently received in regards to the ongoing discussions surrounding the deletion of the "Adult-child sex" article and of the various drafts that attempted come up with a quality representation of this controversial subject. Then, even though this is a very "icky" topic for many, TlatoSMD followed proper Wikipedia procedures in contesting the deletions just mentioned. Thus, his actions to this regard should not be grounds for an indef block. As for the supposed "canvassing," this behavior can be addressed by warnings or a temporary block - once again, no indef block is called for. Lastly, this editor is quite capable of editing articles constructively and civility, as his editing history clearly demonstrates. To assert that TlatoSMD is "not here to be constructive" is to blatantly ignore all his contributions prior to his controversial conduct in the recent debates. There's much that this editor can contribute to Wikipedia. And, yes, enforcement of policy and emphasis on NPOV are just two of the positives that TlatoSMD generally brings to the table. ~ Homologeo (talk) 03:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You're misquoting me, I did not say he was a sock, I said his admitted doppelganger account, see this prior version of his user page. Also, I protest your claim this is censorship, the issue is incivility and disruption. As for his good edits, that is not a defense, per Jimbo's link below. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I apologize for misreading a part of your comment. I have now adjusted my response to account for the assertion that TlatoSMD is an SPA. As for the "doppelganger" comment, I'm not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand. As far as I know, many editors mistakenly create several spellings of their username and only end up using one of the account. Since this is his primary account, and the combined contribution history of his current and previous account show editing in a variety of articles, I fail to see what makes TlatoSMD an SPA. Besides, as stated above, being an SPA, even if this was true of this particular editor, is generally poor grounding (in and of itself) for an indef block. ~ Homologeo (talk) 04:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- There is also no assertion that your particular indef blocking of TlatoSMD is censorship. What I said was that this "indef block will only fuel the growing suspicion that there's censorship taking place on Wikipedia, and that having a controversial take on subjects is a bannable offense." I'm not saying that this is true, but it's foolish to deny that such observations are being made about the project, especially after a number of controversial indef blocks in the past year or so. ~ Homologeo (talk) 04:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
TlatoSMD Review Break
- Has he been blocked or banned? Regardless, indef is def excessive. Firstly, he is not a Single Purpose Account as was said in the blocking rationale on his talk page. At least, not according to his contribs history. Blocking is not supposed to be used as punishment or to make a point, regardless of what Jimbo says. I'd say a timed block, as in 24 hours if he hasn't been blocked before to 48 hours if he's only been blocked once before to a couple of days or week depending on recent past block count, would be more appropriate in dealing with his incivility. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 03:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- He's blocked, not banned. Even if one accepts the argument that he's not an SPA, there's still plenty to support an indef on this highly disruptive user. Short blocks have not worked. There is way more than his incivility. His statements (see quotes I made on his user talk page) show no sign of acknowledging the collaborative nature of wikipedia. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Firstly, Avruch has my deep respect for bringing this here, even though he agrees with the block, because bringing it here for wider review was the right thing to do. Good call and thank you.
- Keilana will of course support the block because TlatoSMD rightly challenged her deletion of a page without rationale.
- When we are talking about a permanent ban on a user, we have to really look at it. Why? I have seen vandalism-only accounts and vandalism-only IP's blocked for 24 hours, only to go through the entire process again. I have seen the most aggregious name-calling and personal attacks go without rebuke at all. But TlatoSMD is uncivil and warrants a permaban? That is, quite simply, ridiculous.
- So, why is this user being banned? Because he is right. Not entirely, and not always, but he is absolutely right in that he demands that Wikipedia policies be followed, and he has made no attempt to hide his feelings about clear policy violations. Pages that do not warrant deletion are being deleted. Personal attacks on him and others go without even warnings. And when he responds in kind, he is banned. What sort of precedent does this set?
- There is the canvassing issue. Firstly, let's even assume it was canvassing (which it was not); is canvassing once worthy of a permanent ban from Wikipedia? Of course not.
- TlatoSMD is by no means a Single-Purpose Account, and even if he had an uber-narrow focus, so what? Sockpuppet? No. Focused editor? Sure, why not? Who cares, though. His contributions have been very good and he has spent more time and effort on articles than some who only have worked to tear articles down. Are we going to start banning everyone who edits in a narrow range?
- The bottom line is that this ban is egregiously over-the-top. I can agree that TlatoSMD has been aggressive. TlatoSMD has even rufled many feathers (gasp!). But to be permanently banned for this? Come on now... don't we all, as a community, have better things to do that force this issue? How about blocking intentional, blatant vandals for more than 24 hours at a time? TlatoSMD deserves time to cool off and continue editing constructively.
- Let's drop this block to 24-36 hours, shake our collective finger at him, and move on...
- VigilancePrime (talk) 04:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC) :-)
- For what it's worth, I'm not supporting the block because he " rightly challenged [my] deletion of a page without rationale". First of all, I did provide a rationale, which he disagreed with. Fine. He had every right to DRV the article. However, after the nth incarnation, it became clear that he was an SPA. He has acted uncivilly, and the net gain to the project of unblocking him would be much less than the net loss from all the drama and incivility that follows him around. Keilana|Parlez ici 04:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It became clear he was an SPA? Have you not taken the time to look at his contribs? He is definitely not an SPA. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 04:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, it did. I have read his contributions, FWIW. He has barely any article-space edits, effectively everything he does is related to this one article. Keilana|Parlez ici 04:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It became clear he was an SPA? Have you not taken the time to look at his contribs? He is definitely not an SPA. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 04:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- VigilancePrime--There's way more to this than Keilana and other edits. That three admins deleted that page shows there's considerable support to do so and that TlatoSMD is not correct in his actions. And again, he is not banned, there is a difference in a ban and an indef block. Your claim that he's being banned because he's right is ludicrous. — Rlevse • Talk • 04:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I'm not supporting the block because he " rightly challenged [my] deletion of a page without rationale". First of all, I did provide a rationale, which he disagreed with. Fine. He had every right to DRV the article. However, after the nth incarnation, it became clear that he was an SPA. He has acted uncivilly, and the net gain to the project of unblocking him would be much less than the net loss from all the drama and incivility that follows him around. Keilana|Parlez ici 04:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, even though he is not technically "banned," TlatoSMD is now incapable of editing articles, so how is this different from a ban? ~ Homologeo (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- See WP:BLOCK and WP:BAN. Keilana|Parlez ici 04:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The confusion there is probably my fault for naming the section "ban" - technically he is blocked, but if no one unblocks him it has the effect of a community ban. Avruch T 04:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- See WP:BLOCK and WP:BAN. Keilana|Parlez ici 04:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, even though he is not technically "banned," TlatoSMD is now incapable of editing articles, so how is this different from a ban? ~ Homologeo (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's like the verifiability vs. truth argument. He may be right, but right is subjective, and his opinion of right has been shown to be against consensus. I have also refactored your comments' formatting and removed the annoying red box. Keilana|Parlez ici 04:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Disruptive SPA sums it quite nicely. In my opinion, indef is a good call. – Sadalmelik (talk) 04:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed with this analysis (after having seen the user at a few of the debates). Orderinchaos 04:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Unsurprisingly I support this block, he has been incredibly uncivil and disruptive and short blocks perpetuated the situation. WP is better off without users like this. ViridaeTalk 04:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Keilana, replied to your note on my talk page. Thank you for asking and no, I don't think you're self-important.
- Second, the difference between Indef block and Ban is purely semantic. Spare me.
- Third, Keilana closed the original debate w/o stated rationale, and that caused a firestorm (on all sides, ultimately). That led to Tlato being less-than-kind toward her, and thus I would expect a certain dislike for him. I would be too, so that's not meant as a slight against her.
- Fourth, counting admins is useless. Yes, three admins deleted the pages. Just as many kept the original page, protected the original page, or agreed that the pages should stay. In fact, more. Spare us the "so-many admins (as if that makes opinions more valuable?) did this or that". Poor argument.
- When it comes down to it, "we" would rather protect those who intentionally destroy Wikipedia (blocking vandals for 24 hours at a time, no matter their history?) and wash ou hands of someone who is so committed to Wikipedia as to fight for it. I do not disagree that T's comments have been unnecessarily aggressive. But a lifetime ban? Come on now... let's use our common sense. If "we" want to set this precedent, can I bring you twice as much evidence about another user, who has in fact taken part in name-calling and personal attacks and you'll permaban/permablock them as well? Give the word and I'll give the links, quotes, and diffs. But make me that promise first.
- Let's set some sort of consistency. Everyone in this debacle has had some sort of culpability in it, including me. I haven't been the most pleasant at times (longer ago). Neither has anyone else, admins most often included. Let's not overreact here. I would recommend a few cement trucks worth of Good Faith just be poured over this entire situation.
- VigilancePrime (talk) 04:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Question: What is the status of this page now? Its called "Der paedophile impuls" and is written in German, and it is apparently a copy of an article that was deleted on de.wiki. Avruch T 04:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
That would need to be brought up on de.wiki; it may have different standards and processes than en.wiki.--Coredesat 05:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)- The userpage is here, though. Its a copy of a deleted de.wiki article, but he's ported it here for translation. Avruch T 05:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was about to strike my comment after misreading it. The page should be deleted. --Coredesat 05:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The userpage is here, though. Its a copy of a deleted de.wiki article, but he's ported it here for translation. Avruch T 05:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I also support this block, and would support a ban as well. This is a highly disruptive user who continually insults and attacks other users, even continuing to be so blatantly uncivil that during a block today his userpage had to be protected due to his outrageous behavior. TlatoSMD has attacked several administrators, accusing them of blatant lying [114][115][116], having “faulty rationale” and being neglectful by turning a blind eye to vandalism. TlatoSMD has acted in a disruptive manner in every MfD DRV and MfD he's been involved in, while continuing to insult administrators and other editors after being warned time and time again:[117][118][119][120]. These are just some of the most recent incidents, the user has a long history of attacking and insulting other editors and tendentious editing. Dreadstar † 05:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse block. I simply can't see how this user can ever work collaboratively with editors they disagree with. Spartaz Humbug! 05:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- While TlatoSMD may use excessively colorful words at times and has lately been upfront about his sentiments concerning others, his civility problems can be addressed with a temporary block, even a long one. An indef block is really inappropriate, especially considering that most criticism of his editing is directed at his commentary surrounding this one particular issue. This has been an upstanding, constructive, and generally civil editor in most other contexts. As for his critique of other editors and admins, and their editing practices - as long as this is done in a tasteful manner, and proper reasoning is provided, there's nothing wrong with such criticism. If it's established that TlatoSMD has been uncivil as of late, he should be blocked, but not indefinitely. I'm not sure how his constructive editing of other articles, and even of PAW articles before this messy situation, can be diminished by recent events and be completely disregarded. ~ Homologeo (talk) 05:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Civility blocks have had no effect on this user - he was blocked on 4th Feb for 48 hours and was still being uncivil and offensive yesterday when I blocked him for calling another user a liar. I certainly didn't see any evidence from their talk page that they understood they had crossed a line. Quite the opposite in fact. Too much agression & refusal to moderate unacceptable behaviour is not collaborative. Spartaz Humbug! 05:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Then, by all means, extend the block. But there's no need for idef blocking, especially considering the consistent constructive contributions on the editor's part in the past, before this messy situation. ~ Homologeo (talk) 05:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at his contributions, he has ~20 unrelated contributions since he joined. That's not at all consistent. Keilana|Parlez ici 05:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Then, by all means, extend the block. But there's no need for idef blocking, especially considering the consistent constructive contributions on the editor's part in the past, before this messy situation. ~ Homologeo (talk) 05:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Civility blocks have had no effect on this user - he was blocked on 4th Feb for 48 hours and was still being uncivil and offensive yesterday when I blocked him for calling another user a liar. I certainly didn't see any evidence from their talk page that they understood they had crossed a line. Quite the opposite in fact. Too much agression & refusal to moderate unacceptable behaviour is not collaborative. Spartaz Humbug! 05:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- While TlatoSMD may use excessively colorful words at times and has lately been upfront about his sentiments concerning others, his civility problems can be addressed with a temporary block, even a long one. An indef block is really inappropriate, especially considering that most criticism of his editing is directed at his commentary surrounding this one particular issue. This has been an upstanding, constructive, and generally civil editor in most other contexts. As for his critique of other editors and admins, and their editing practices - as long as this is done in a tasteful manner, and proper reasoning is provided, there's nothing wrong with such criticism. If it's established that TlatoSMD has been uncivil as of late, he should be blocked, but not indefinitely. I'm not sure how his constructive editing of other articles, and even of PAW articles before this messy situation, can be diminished by recent events and be completely disregarded. ~ Homologeo (talk) 05:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Edits to Spontaneous, Jihad, Sodomy, Kurgan hypothesis, Counterculture of the 1960s, Dialectic of Enlightenment, Níð, Right-wing Authoritarianism, The Holocaust, Nazi occultism, Michael Naumann, Child sexual abuse, Donald Duck pocket books, Adolf Hitler, Velvia, Kodachrome, Proto-Indo-European religion, Dialectic of Enlightenment, Pedophilia, Repressed memory, and Pro-pedophile activism, five of his edits, even though made awhile back, are still the most recent to their pages.
- VigilancePrime (talk) 05:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Most of the articles in your list are related to the "adult/child sex" topic. One edit to a disambiguation page is irrelevant, as are the few other topical edits TlatoSMD has made. TlatoSMD is a single purpose account not because he has edited a single article, but because the vast majority of his edits have been to a group of related articles in a manner which is not aligned with Wikipedia's neutrality or advocacy standards. The SPA concern pales beside the disruptive nature of this user's editing habits. Dreadstar † 06:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Just a word: this account may or may not be disruptive, but this particular act - that of submitting the user copy page to DRV was not "disruptive, abuse of process, and a WP:POINT violation". The MfD was a complex situation, with several different reasons brought up by different people in a long discussion. (I voted delete, incidentally, and still think that deletion of the material is best.) Riana's closing rationale was really, really, uninformative; and her justification in the subsequent DRV was simply appalling. You do have to have a bit of chutzpah to say that after that a DRV was out-of-process. Relata refero (talk) 07:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agrre that this editor has been an SPA, and even worse, has been an aggressive POV-pusher. I don't see any article that he's improved, and he's fomented a lot of disruption. I think a ban is appropriate and necessary. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't disagree about the block, but I gotta ask (since it's been the subject of a few discussions of interest to me), what does being an SPA have to do with it? -- Ned Scott 11:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- He is here mainly to push a pro-pedophile POV based on his edits (and he is doing so in an uncivil manner, which is the basis of the other problems he has), and that is something that can't be tolerated. --Coredesat 19:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse block, he's exhausted my (admittedly limited) patience and then some. People should be careful to pick the right fights; this was the wrong one on a number of levels. Guy (Help!) 10:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse block, per all the others that agree above. Whether he is or isn't an SPA is moot; the other evidence alone supports an indef. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 12:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse - sorry, the DRV was pure disruption. Will (talk) 13:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse block—a rather textbook block: the net negative effect of this user's contributions are far outweighing the positive effect. I fully endorse to prevent any further disruption. Anthøny (talk) 13:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
User:OracleGD blanking his warnings
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
This. I warned him to not blank his warnings, but he just keeps doing it over and over again. - Master Bigode from SRK.o//(Talk) (Contribs) 03:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please take a peek here: Wikipedia:User page#Removal of comments, warnings. He may blank the warnings if he wishes. Charles 03:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- From his own talk page yes, it is considered proof they saw it. If the reason(s) that caused the warnings continue, he can be blocked. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Charles is right, and just beat me to the punch. It's true, any editor can remove warning messages (or anything else) from their talk pages. The warnings will be in his page history, if an admin needs to refer to them. Snowfire51 (talk) 03:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I see... thanks. - Master Bigode from SRK.o//(Talk) (Contribs) 03:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
DX927 (talk · contribs) has ownership issues with Warped Tour 2008, and continues to use the Undo button to revert other editors with whom they disagree. I tried to explain that use of the Undo button isn't proper, but they don't seem to care. My removal of MySpace "references" were reverted with the Undo button and I was told that "we" (I don't know what DX927 means by "we") have been doing this for years, and I should "move on". Corvus cornixtalk 06:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- User:DX927 blocked 3 hours for a 3RR cooling off period on Warped Tour 2008. --Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 06:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Sockpuppet
This guy is someone's sockpuppet. I can't remember who's, though maybe one of you can. The history is the guy only edits his own page and always has all caps username. Please block, and if you know who it is, please tag him. Thanks. The Evil Spartan (talk) 07:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at the contributions I don't see any disruptions, vote-stacking etc. If you have reason to believe that this is a sock of a banned user, then I guess we should block him/her. I suggest we wait and see how this user edits the mainspace.Bless sins (talk) 07:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- By all means. In fact, this user has created several sockpuppets, and as said, has been blocked in the past for constantly creating WP:MYSPACE violation accounts, of which this is clearly just another. Therefore, let me make clear, that even if the user wasn't officially banned, he was blocked for precisely this type of action. The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is a valid request. I do remember the case from AN/I last month or maybe the previous, I've also unfortunately forgotten the identifying details. Orderinchaos 10:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- By all means. In fact, this user has created several sockpuppets, and as said, has been blocked in the past for constantly creating WP:MYSPACE violation accounts, of which this is clearly just another. Therefore, let me make clear, that even if the user wasn't officially banned, he was blocked for precisely this type of action. The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Threats and unacceptable behaviour
The user Wilhelmina Will delighted us with outburst such as this [121] already yesterday and was warned that such behaviour is unacceptable [122]. Today, the user is back threatening me with a hospital visit [123]. JdeJ (talk) 08:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Gave him a level 4 warning about civility. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- No final warning needed after that ("you will have more money than you could ever dream of spending, but you'll never have enough to pay your medical bills") threat, or "curse." Blocked for 24 hours. El_C 10:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Administrator removing NPOV tag on Hilary Clinton BLP after 13 minutes
NPOV tag says "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." User:Stephan Schulz removed taghere. Tvoz did the same 2 weeks ago. There have been 8 different editors expressing 8 different specific npov concerns, yet article managers/watchers will not allow NPOV tag to stay on the article long enough for the broader community to reach a consensus.
[124][125] Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 13:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have had a look at the article talkpage. It seems pretty active, with participants including you and Tvoz. Therefore whatever POV concerns there are seem to be debated. NPOV tags are fine where an article is inactive, or there is only one POV that is being given, but where there is active debate it may itself be POV to place such a tag on the article; as it is a bit like waving a flag saying "Beware - this article may not be 100% accurate/unbiased" which could be considered sensitive under the current circumstances. I shouldn't worry too much about the process, just as long as your concerns regarding the content are being addressed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- For the record, I just removed M.ge's POV-tag that he readded. This article (as well as Barack Obama's) has a long history of people using the POV-tag (and other tags as well) as weapons to try to force the content they want into the article. Bellwether BC 14:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- This "Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved." is what I am relying upon.
- It's ridiculous that the NPOV tool (tag) is being seen (not only in this article) as as a "weapon" or red flag. Where is that paranoia and assumption of bad faith coming from? It's not to be found in policy. Maybe "POV-check" is seen as less of a weapon; I'll put that on as a last effort. Or maybe the NPOV tag should be dispensed with if it has taken on various negative assumptions as to its intent; but it's patent nonsense to have a NPOV policy endorsing the use of the tag which article watchers/managers quickly remove. Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 14:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Last sentence of the second paragraph at WP:NPOVD says that "tags should be added as a last resort". I maintain that since the talkpage is very active then the likelihood is that any one area of disputed POV is being discussed, and if an area of dispute isn't being discussed it is because the previous one hasn't been agreed on yet. As for your own example, I note that tags may be removed if there is consensus; and since different editors have seen fit to remove the tag then there is likely consensus to do so. As for accusations of bad faith, I would comment that there seems to be an assumption on your part that removal of the tag by "article watchers/managers" is itself a biased action, even though it appears that you are active on the talkpage. Finally, NPOV/D does not endorse use of the tag - it allows/permits its use, per my first point. I doubt if you are going to get a sysop to intervene in this matter, and can only suggest that you raise this point with whatever other concerns you have with the article at that talkpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's ridiculous that the NPOV tool (tag) is being seen (not only in this article) as as a "weapon" or red flag. Where is that paranoia and assumption of bad faith coming from? It's not to be found in policy. Maybe "POV-check" is seen as less of a weapon; I'll put that on as a last effort. Or maybe the NPOV tag should be dispensed with if it has taken on various negative assumptions as to its intent; but it's patent nonsense to have a NPOV policy endorsing the use of the tag which article watchers/managers quickly remove. Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 14:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Siddharth.igcse
- User:Siddharth.igcse seems to be a vandalism-only account. His latest marauding ([126]) was in Fuck#John le Fucker, replacing "John" 3 times by an Indian name. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Likely. User has only 8 edits and almost all of them are vandalism [127], [128], [129], [130]. --Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 14:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Note: the last one was almost a week ago. - Revolving Bugbear 14:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Likely. User has only 8 edits and almost all of them are vandalism [127], [128], [129], [130]. --Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 14:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I have issued him/her a level 3 vandalism warning. --Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 14:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Nah, I indefblocked. Clearly nothing but vandalism was ever going to come from that account. Enough already. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
factual error on the main page
Factual errors on the main page makes all of us look bad, but only admins can fix such problems. Can someone with sysop powers attend to the error reports at WP:ERRORS, pls? Thanks. --74.13.129.197 (talk) 15:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've fixed the two reports for DYK. Nakon 15:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for the quick response. --74.13.129.197 (talk) 16:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
User canvassing for RFC certification
[131] [132]. Enough already. Can we get action on this user? This is just out of hand. Background: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:BQZip01/Comments . Lawrence § t/e 17:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure asking two people is really in the realms of disruptive canvessing, and given that people certifying are "Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute", if they haven't they can't certify. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 18:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Read the MFD and comments from the parties involved in the canvassing for the full context. This whole thing has basically turned into an effort to do a retaliatory smear against User:Cumulus Clouds. Lawrence § t/e 18:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree strongly with the above editor. I do not think notifying two people about an RfCU which they could potentially certify qualifies as canvassing. The editor is simply pointing out to two editors whom he believes could certify that the RfCU has met the two person threshold has been met that they could indicate as much. It is a bit of a request, but it basically as neutrally-worded, and certainly about as short, as such a request could be. I don't see any reason to believe that the behavior guideline has been violated in any meaningful way. John Carter (talk) 18:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well your message is rather opaque, perhaps if there is stronger background to believe something disruptive is occuring you should post more complete information and not assume everyone reading here will have an indepth knowledge of the background. I haven't gone off and looked but stand by my original comment. The only people eligible to certify the RFC is a pretty limited audience, if those two aren't in the correct position to certify, then they'll be ignored and the RFC closed anyway. If there was a broader audience who could certify that the message should have gone to, I'm not sure it makes much difference, they've restricted the possibility the RFC will be certify by not giving a broader coverage. Remember everyone can participate in the RFC if it is certified and all parties to the dispute are going to be the subject of the comments, including the originator. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 18:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You are supposed to have others certify and sign that they have attempted to dissipate the problem. How else am I supposed to let them know? Are they just supposed to watch the entire page 24/7 and see if a dispute they were interested in pops up? You will note I did not ask them to support me in any way, only to certify that there is a basis for the dispute. If you will also note, they have not endorsed my opinion either. Perhaps this could be clarified in the directions. — BQZip01 — talk 22:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have not had a dispute with any of those editors outside of a pre-existing conflict with you. None of them have previously attempted to resolve any dispute with me, but all of them have voted in your favor or argued in your defense on the MfDs, in the original ANI request and at your RfA. Your request for their assistant was performed in bad faith. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- That they had an opinion regarding the subject is irrelevant. It is simply certification that they have tried (and talk pages qualify too). It doesn't mean that anyone should/shouldn't support/oppose based on that input, but that something has been tried and didn't work. No malice should be assumed in certification (it is merely acknowledging that a conflict exists - I think we can both agree on that - and that this is the appropriate forum - which it is). — BQZip01 — talk 22:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- He may correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not in conflict with Johntex (or BillCJ) about anything outside of your dispute with me. Neither of these users have ever engaged me in a discussion about any of my edits independent of the MFD, ANI or RFA. I don't see how either one of them could certify this issue. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 23:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Considering that part of the problem was your edits on the RfA, ANI, and MfD, his input certainly is valid. You don't have to have a conflict with him personally for him to certify he tried to resolve the dispute and failed. — BQZip01 — talk 23:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You are supposed to have others certify and sign that they have attempted to dissipate the problem. How else am I supposed to let them know? Are they just supposed to watch the entire page 24/7 and see if a dispute they were interested in pops up? You will note I did not ask them to support me in any way, only to certify that there is a basis for the dispute. If you will also note, they have not endorsed my opinion either. Perhaps this could be clarified in the directions. — BQZip01 — talk 22:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Read the MFD and comments from the parties involved in the canvassing for the full context. This whole thing has basically turned into an effort to do a retaliatory smear against User:Cumulus Clouds. Lawrence § t/e 18:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- This was not user canvassing with respect to the message on my page at all. I had already declared my intention to certify the RFC. BQ was just letting me know it was ready. Johntex\talk 22:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The same here. People should read WP:CANVAS. This is not a violation, regardless of who is being asked. A few more recruits, and it would be good of someone to investigate any possible partisanship, though. Lambton T/C 23:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Mondrago socks an IP's
On 2 February User:Nakon added asiafanclub.com to the MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist in response to this thread [133] at WP:ANI. This link has since been removed from the blacklist by CIreland as stated in this comment.
- Talk:Asia (band)#Fan club link blacklisting as well as the preceding discussion:
- User talk:Nakon#Spam blacklist
- MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#asiafanclub.com
Earlier discussions:
- Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Mondrago
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive362#Linkspammer issuing legal threats on talk page
Accounts/IPsocks used by Mondrago
Template:MultiCol
Mondrago (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
70.188.184.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.91 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.203 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.117 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
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4.238.124.147 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.121 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.149 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
156.34.220.66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.127.202 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
32.141.139.251 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
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70.167.100.82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
70.188.184.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
32.141.139.251 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
70.167.100.82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.75 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
32.137.247.56 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Template:EndMultiCol
Since the de-listing, I've had to block Mondrago's main IP 70.188.184.84 for linkspam warring on Asia (band);
- 1st revert: 11:55, 10 February 2008
- 2nd revert: 12:00, 10 February 2008
- 3rd revert: 12:08, 10 February 2008
- 4th revert: 17:18, 10 February 2008
- Diff of 3RR warning: 16:44, 10 February 2008
Asside from the obvious lack of consnsus for inclusion, the link invariably fails the requirements of our External Links and Reliable Sources guidelines. I would be interested in broader consensus on the issue. --Hu12 (talk) 18:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree and have re-added it to the local blacklist for now. This is being discussed at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist, so I guess we probably don't need it here as well. Guy (Help!) 19:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Mike0001
On February 5th, User:Mike0001 edited the Rough Collie article by adding some NPOV remarks, an image of his pet collie, and a spam link. I reverted the changes and left him a level 1 NPOV warning. The next day, he put back the image again[134], which was again removed as it did not comply with WP:IMAGE (doesn't illustrate the text) and the article is far too short to support anymore images. Two days later (i.e. today), Mike reverted that removal, as well as edits in between calling it "vandalism"[135]. I undid again, and apparently he has decided that he is going to edit war over the issue. We have been back and forth for almost an hour, with him not only trying to readd the picture, as well as breaking the article in attempts to denote a whole paragraph as needing citations. In readding the picture, he also reuploaded it (first as Image:Shadow Rough Collie.JPG then as Image:Lamtara Golden Spritzer.jpg), seemingly in an attempt to disguise that it is a picture of his pet collie. I've attempted discussing the issue with him on his talk page, after leaving another warning, but he continues to just put it back and put it back.talk page diff, since he's since erased all messages I finally left him a 3RR warning (which he'd long since violated), and he responded by leaving me two.[136][137] He also seems to be engaging in edit disputes on other articles including Faust (History), Boiling to death(History), and List of nontheists (History) among others (a quick look at his contribs show quite a few, but these are some of the most recent). Anyone undoing his NPOV, unsourced, and often blatantly wrong edits is apparently a vandal.
At this point, my temper is too high to keep dealing with him, and in undoing his mess, I've also gone past the 3RR mark, so I'm asking for admin intervention. While I was working on this report, the was been protected, to a previous bad version, by another admin. As soon as the protection is gone, I'm sure Mike will continue his campaign, and meanwhile he will continue to cause problems on other articles. Collectonian (talk) 17:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
merged from other thread. Black Kite 18:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- User Collectonium seems to think that he is the only person allowed to edit the Rough Collie. This is not WP policy! Also Lamtara Golden Spritzer is registered, has a pedigree, and is called Shadow by his family!
- All the edits I make here and elsewhere are well justified. I am a retired academic! NOT a vandal. Mike0001 (talk) 17:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- To clarify, the dispute seems to be about the inclusion of Image:Lamtara_Golden_Spritzer.jpg in that article, and is referring to User:Collectonian - I fixed the spelling and added a link in the header. —Random832 17:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Is this supposed to be an actual report, or a response to my report two up from this? Of the latter, can it be moved up to keep the conversation in one place. Collectonian (talk) 18:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to seem spammy, but I'm restoring again as Mike decided to vandalize one of my user pages last night since the rough collie article is still locked.[138] I don't suppose someone will look at it now? Collectonian (talk) 19:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- From a look through the dispute, it's not really a huge issue, and really should be directed more towards dispute resolution than for admin consideration. I've suggested to Mike that he not edit other peoples' userpages like that in the future, and suggested he look at WP:3O or an RFC. I'll keep an eye on things, in case there's further issues. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
User talk: Wikidas and socketpuppets User talk: 79.97.0.103
- User talk:Wikidas and User:79.97.0.103 are vandalizing articles suck as I-Foundation and just being a nusance. Thanks. Any help would be appreciated, I don't know where to go from here - but I don't wont this to become a pattern. Any thoughts? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Update. After I gave warning Wikidas/79.97.0.103 is still attacking my talk page and I-Foundation. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- This has now expanded to the use of User talk:MBest-son. Ism schism (talk) 23:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Update. After I gave warning Wikidas/79.97.0.103 is still attacking my talk page and I-Foundation. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Continued edit warring on Canada page
In a continued effort to avoid edit warring, I've submitted this follow up to yesterdays report on a similar incident.
Quizimodo continues to move [dubious – discuss] tag on contested term "dominion" and "semi-autonomous" on Canada page; dominion has been used as an indication of "semi-autonomy"; the two words are linked. His rationale is that I haven't shown that there is a debate.
The debate is in fact a longstanding one in which we both have participated. See polls below for summary of editor opinions on talk page. The intent of the tag is to draw attention to that debate, and warn users that a good number (in fact a majority) of editors disagree strongly with reference to the word Dominion.
I think it is reasonable for a small tag to remain on the questionable wording until the dispute is resolved. A larger neutrality tag is not necessary as it would be overkill for what otherwise stands as an FA-Class aticle. --soulscanner (talk) 20:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
References: yesterday's report; Poll 1; Poll 2; Warning about deleting tags --soulscanner (talk) 20:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Blocked user Paul Hartal seems to be back again
Recently the name of indefinitely blocked user User:Paul Hartal (subject of Paul Hartal) has appeared (or been signed) on talk page comments posted by IP users Special:Contributions/66.131.182.80 and Special:Contributions/70.80.42.122. --Orlady (talk) 20:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Attacks by User:Urbanarcheology
For the past month or so there has been debate over photographs on the article Bethlehem Steel. Myself, User:NcSchu, and a few others have been involved, as well as the two users User:Urbanarcheology and User talk:Jbdesign2.
Urbanarcheology has repeatedly attacked myself and NcSchu[139] and attempted to show his superiority in regards to to how the article should be edited,[140] [141] including telling editors that they should stick to other articles.[142]
Urbanarcheology also claims that he has an assistant,[143] who does work for him, namely User talk:Jbdesign2. This user has been equally abusive,[144] [145] and even uploads pictures that claim to be by him, but Urbanarcheology claims that he is merely uploading pictures that are really by Urbanarcheology, so it is difficult to tell if this is really another person or just a sock account.
Things had mostly calmed down recently and some discussion was progressing, but today I found this on my talk page. This same random IP was earlier claimed to be Urbanarcheology himself.[146] and [147] leading to [148].
This user, and his assistant, both seem to believe that they can attack those who oppose their opinions in an attempt to get what they want, even if it ignores Wikipedia rules. The359 (talk) 20:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have blocked the ip for 31 hours, issued a level 2 npa warning to Jbdesign2 and left a message with Urbanarcheology which includes a civility warning. I hope that they get the message that respect for other editors comes before how good their contributions may be. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be an issue regarding the Miss Tourism Queen International articles and the behaviour and possible COI of Lianga13 (talk · contribs). Angelo De La Paz (talk · contribs) appears strongly convinced that that user account is one of many others used by the same person, which appear to be vandalising articles. Angelo De La Paz needs a bit of a nudge towards figuring out WP policies (see his message here and this message on my talk page from a couple of days ago for a couple of examples) so I thought I'd bring this here and see what you thought. Basically I'm a neutral observer on this one... just trying to bring this to the right channels. PageantUpdater talk • contribs 20:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Problem with repeated incivility from IP user
There have been some problems with an IP user where the user's first edit mentions spoofing. The next edit tries to insinuate against another editor by implying they wrote something and questioning their motives. The next edit is an obvious personal attack. The next edit tries to call into question the editor and the motives of the editor instead of tackling the substance of the argument. Then again the user tries to direct an attack against another editor. I then placed a warning on the user's talk page. The user then insists on replacing edits [149] [150] [151] [152] [153] (and many more) that have been reverted due to containing incivility and personal attacks. I have initially reverted the user's changes that violate AGF or contain personal attacks, however now because of the user's editing pattern I have my strong suspicions that this IP user is evading a ban for using sock puppets. Basically IP the user started editing on the same topic, binary prefixes, as the other two banned users and is using the same IP address range to edit from (IP address starting 217.87 which is the same German ISP). These can be seen in the last section "IPs to keep track of from" on this sock puppet history page. While this suspected sock puppet activity is related to this issue my main priority is for the IP user to stop making edits that attack other editors and to be civil. Fnagaton 21:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The IEC binary prefix issue on Talk:Binary_prefix can bring about lively debates. In this case I have to agree with Fnagaton that the IP user is just being obnoxious. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Twicemost leaving threats on talk pages
User:Twicemost has been going through various anime articles removing information about the series being aired in other countries, then leaving messages on the talk page saying the removed it because "we only care about the english dub" and that including such information violates the MOS. (which is a false idea). The real problem is, though, is that he has including in his message statements like "don't dare to revert this or you'll pay it with your life" (see [154] and [155]) or that "you asked for it" [156]. From his note here, he seems to be deliberately being disruptive to make a WP:POINT. I finally settled for leaving a warning on content removal for his latest edit, but not sure what else should/can be done, but I do feel administrators need to be aware of this. Leaving death threats will certainly scare off some other editors. Collectonian (talk) 22:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Twicemost (talk · contribs) has been blocked indefinitely by LessHeard vanU (talk · contribs). It's not entirely clear how seriously these threats were meant, but this is clearly a combative editor who was being disruptive. There do seem to be some earlier constructive edits, so I suppose it would be reasonable to consider shortening the block to a definite time frame if the threats are unreservedly retracted. MastCell Talk 22:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd like to see a week-long block and an explanation from the user. the_undertow talk 22:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)I have indef blocked Twicemost for the threat. This has no place on Wikipedia. If it is retracted and a promise to abide by npa/harass is made then a revision of the tariff may be appropriate. Without any such undertaking I would oppose allowing the editor to resume contributing.LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Page moves by Dove1950
Dove1950 (talk · contribs) has spent today reverting half-a-dozen moves. All were submitted to WP:RM, and all of the discussions were closed move. In some cases he has gone so far as to cut and paste the article and the talk page to the title he prefers; in most of these cases, he is the only editor to prefer it. The guidelines he insisted on has also been changed.
Would someone explain to him the difference between Wikipedia:consensus and the liberum veto? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The moves reverted were these:
- Dutch gulden to Dutch guilder. Closed by The Evil Spartan after 8-2 !vote.
- Egyptian gineih to Egyptian pound. Closed by AjaxSmack, 5-1.
- Egyptian qirsh to Egyptian piastre. Closed by AjaxSmack, 3-1. Cut and paste.
- Lebanese lira to Lebanese pound. Closed by AjaxSmack, 3-1 and a comment preferring direct change of guidelines.
- I am moving these back. Quite apart from the debates at RM, WP:ENGLISH is clear that the most common English name is to be preferred. Black Kite 22:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Done. Since this is the second time this editor has done this, and he's been warned by an admin before, I have issued a final warning. Would be useful if a few other admins could watchlist these pages too. Black Kite 22:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Semi-protection
Question:
The Paris Hilton article is in semi-protection.
Yet it was edited earlier today by "Abdulmatics", whose first-ever WP edit was 10 hours earlier. It seems based on this that semi-protection might be better called "just a tiny protection".
Am I missing something about the actual protection?
Thanks Wanderer57 (talk) 22:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- The account was created on February 1 ([157]). It is the time from account creation that is taken into account, unfortunately making it easy for editors to create many accounts to slip past semi-protection. Black Kite 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Beat me to it Black Kite. Semi-protection protects against IP accounts and any account less than 4 days old. In this case, the account was nine days old. Metros (talk) 22:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)His account was created on 1 February, [158] and he began editing on 7 February. [159] However, it appears that his/her edits are disruptive, since they exclusively pertain to adding links to a pair of external websites about Paula Abdul. I will leave a linkspam warning. Horologium (talk) 22:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Beat me to it Black Kite. Semi-protection protects against IP accounts and any account less than 4 days old. In this case, the account was nine days old. Metros (talk) 22:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks very much. My knowledge grows. Wanderer57 (talk) 22:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Brian Reddyb (yet again)
- 86.42.206.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Illbreddy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Brian Reddyb again evading his community ban and engaging in disruptive editing. (For a full list of accounts and IP addresses used by this sock puppeteer, refer to his talk page.) IP 86.42.206.133 added "Brian Reddyb" back as a founding producer of Rednex despite this having been proved to be a hoax months ago. Same IP would later specify "Reddyb" as a female condom manufacturer instead of the (apparently) legitimate "Reddy" brand name. Illbreddy (note similarity of name to other socks) created the Reddyb page as a redirect to the female condom article; the page would be speedy deleted soon afterwards. Requesting indefinite block for Illbreddy, and a medium-term block for 86.42.206.133. CounterFX (talk) 23:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Edito*MagicaJ
Just my day for ANIs I guess. User:Edito*Magica was brought to my attention by another editor, User:UpDown who knows I am well versed in creating episode lists and requested my assistance on List of Keeping Up Appearances episodes. Edito*MagicaJ kept changing for format of the list to one that removes the lead, and does not follow proper episode list format, going against the consensus for proper episode list formatting. (see good version versus his version). I reverted his edits, and tried to explain to him why his edits are incorrect. He refuses to listen, however, and appears to feel that he knows better than the main Wikipedia MOS, the TV project, and existing consensus and standards for episode lists (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Collectonian&diff=next&oldid=190484465 talk page discussions). UpDown also tried talking to him. I warned him that if continued his attempts to mess up the list, his edits would be considered vandalism, but he continues to revert, now calling the undoing of his edits to be acts of "sneaky vandalism." (his talk page with warnings that he has since blanked)
He is also removing content from various articles under the claim that information shouldn't be repeated in an article (examples: [160], [161]), despite it being appropriate information and my explaining to him that information can and should appear both in the lead and within the article proper.
At this point, its down to just undoing everything he is doing in these areas, and I'm hoping perhaps he will be more willing to listen to an admin since he is completely discounting the comments of other editors. I'm not entirely sure his edits are fully vandalism, but they are becoming very disruptive. Collectonian (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Borderline vandalism on Naveen Jain
Anonymous user 216.27.105.10 (talk · contribs) has been continually reverting the article Naveen Jain into a piece of Naveen Jain glorifying fluffwork, which is essentially unverifiable, and in the process he is removing well referenced material [162]. Since he has been providing edit summaries, giving this the appearance of a content dispute, I wasn't sure this was trivial enough for AIV. And while the inclusion of the fluff-work I would certainly consider a content dispute, I still consider the removal of sourced information vandalism given his refusal to use the talk page (despite being reverted and messaged by three editors), and his use of essentially false edit summaries. It should also be noted, as can be seen on the talk page, that this article has had quite a history of being edited Naveen Jain and/or his employees, although the IP in question doesn't resolve to anything that would confirm such. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)