Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:Jaqeli
Jaqueli granted an exemption to edit five articles otherwise covered by their topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:36, 15 March 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by JaqeliDuring this period of time I've contributed to some very good articles and created some quality ones. I can say I am really an experienced Wikipedian and I can assure you no past mistakes will take place anymore. My current TBAN though stops me to create many good Georgian articles because many of them have some kind of Armenian relations as well because of Georgian-Armenian relations are huge and deep and they count several millennia. I recognize my past mistakes of edit-warring and being a bit non-cooperative with Armenian Wikipedians which I no more will be like if you give me a chance again by lifting my current TBAN. I will engage with Armenian users and will cooperate in a calm manner in the interests of English Wikipedia. I believe having a Georgian Wikipedian like me also would greatly contribute as well. I by all means learned on my mistakes and I am ready to get back. I recognize all my past mistakes and now I am more aware how interacting with everyone is important. I will be cooperative and open for the common good of EnWiki. I have more than 20,000 edits, I am an experienced user registered back in 2011, I've made many contributions to English Wikipedia, I've made Good Articles, written many articles, expanded many etc. I have years of experience on English Wikipedia and I deserve a second chance and just because many Georgian articles can have some marginal Armenian connections I should be able to edit them as now my TBAN stops me in my contribution. There can be new information, pictures, charts, maps, sources etc. that can be added and because of my TBAN I cannot do so. I promise I will work with Armenian users and will be cooperative in every way possible. Right now because of my TBAN I cannot work on any major Georgian article because many may have marginal and minor Armenian connections for historical reasons as we are long-time neighbors. There's many I can do to contribute as I've done in the past. Admin Sandstein declined my appeal and I am bringing this appeal to other Admins who I hope will understand my request to cancel and lift this ban from me. I can do many good for the English Wikipedia as I've done in the past and me as a Georgian Wikipedian which aren't that many here can be of a great help in Georgia-related articles. I hope those other Admins who know me or remember me would give me one last chance and cancel this TBAN from me. Thank you. Jaqeli 07:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC) @Sandstein: I understand you are an experienced admin and you no more trust users like me especially when you see my past but please be assured that if this last chance is given I will definitely keep my word. If I do not keep my word I understand the fact that I will be banned forever and I will quit wikipedia. Please also see Georgian inscriptions list as I've told you in your TP I am working on those articles and created some in these days. You rightfully thought I disrupted the page but please be sure it is not the case. I've just made it a disambig page as there are many Georgian inscriptions to be added in the future which I will do certainly as I will work on them. @OccultZone: These 4 years or so I am mostly contributing to Georgia-related articles and because of my TBAN it is literally impossible for me to contribute into any major Georgia-related articles and that is why my activity was and is very low. @Richwales: I have a great respect for you as an admin and I fully understand that if this last chance is given to me I will no more screw with it and will keep my word. I will take any disputes to dispute resolution page and that will be the only way to handle such issues out. If I don't follow my word you personally can ban me from Wikipedia forever. @My very best wishes: I got this TBAN because of my aggressive and noncooperative attitude towards the origin section of Georgian scripts which I do recognize as a mistake which I made in the past. There is no other problems with script-related ones with me. I've made huge contributions and made GAs like script-related Georgian scripts article for example. There will be no problems from my side anymore as I fully understand the result that this can be my last chance so I will take any disputes to dispute resolution page for solving such issues that got my TBAN'd. So there is no reason to keep me out from script-related articles as such. Please also see the part concerning to Georgian inscriptions in the part of my reply to Admin Sandstein. @Kober: Thank you. I look forward working with you again and thanks for your support. Jaqeli 11:40, 8 March 2015 (UTC) @HJ Mitchell: I fully agree. Jaqeli 12:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC) @Richwales: The point of my appeal here is not the modification of my current TBAN but I want it to be lifted and canceled from me entirely. I don't want to have any restrictions editing Wikipedia. As I've said per your suggestion I'd take any disputes to dispute resolution page and I will no more edit war at all and if I won't keep my word for it I will be banned forever. I want to be entirely TBAN-free what will give me a chance to edit any article I will want to starting from Georgian language, scripts, inscriptions, archaeology, history, culture, religion etc. Jaqeli 22:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC) @Starship.paint: @My very best wishes: Thanks for your support. Jaqeli 22:19, 8 March 2015 (UTC) @Newyorkbrad: @Callanecc: There are lots of articles I'd edit so how can I list all of them. For example I'd edit Georgian scripts Asomtavruli, Nuskhuri, Mkhedruli sections to bring up new data and sources if I will have. I'd like to participate on its talk page as well because mostly all the concerns or questions on TP there are left unanswered and native Georgian like me can be of a huge help for Wiki itself. Another example can be Rhadamistus. I want to rewrite the article again to meet the GA status standards. I've made lots of contributions there as well though some more work should be done. Another can be Pharasmanes II of Iberia or David IV of Georgia. If I just wanted to replace or add a new picture there I can be banned again and that's just because these monarchs had Armenian wifes. There are many many articles and cannot really list them all here I hope you understand that. I just want to be TBAN-free and don't want to have any restrictions on me. Again as Richwales said, I do understand that if I will get back to edit-warring as I did in the past I will be banned forever from this site. Jaqeli 16:38, 11 March 2015 (UTC) @Callanecc: Right now I'd like to edit: Georgian scripts, Rhadamistus, Pharnavaz I of Iberia and Pharasmanes II of Iberia. Jaqeli 10:26, 12 March 2015 (UTC) @Richwales: I am not going to make any controversial edits to those articles. But if there will be any dispute I will bring it to the TP of the articles and will try to handle the problem out with other editors in a calm and cooperative manner. Please be sure that you won't ever see me edit warring. I will not edit war for sure. Jaqeli 17:38, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by SandsteinI recommend declining the appeal. I already lifted the ban once and had to reinstate it because of recurring problems. I am not convinced that Jaqeli can now competently edit in controversial topic areas. Please also refer to the discussion on my talk page about Jaqeli's prior appeal to me. Sandstein 08:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by OccultZoneI have got Sandstein's UTP on my watchlist, I was in touch with the appeal. Apart from the points that Sandstein has noted,[1] I would say that the activity level of Jaqeli has gradually decreased since the reinstatement of topic ban and he has made about 291 edits since August 8, 2014. For showing that he can edit constructively and collaboratively in different areas, I believe that more activity is required. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by KoberI've been in dispute with User:Jaqeli over certain areas of Georgia-related topics, but, in my case, he has been cooperative and, in fact, much helpful. Given the quality work he has done for Wikipedia, I would support lifting a topic ban and giving him the last chance to continue his full-time activity. --KoberTalk 15:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by RichwalesI've interacted with Jaqeli numerous times in the past. I'm not going to take a position, one way or the other, as to whether he deserves (or can handle) a relaxation or lifting of his current topic ban; however, I do think it's worth noting that his current ban effectively keeps him out of virtually all Georgia-related articles (since connections between Georgian and Armenian topics are pervasive). Since Jaqeli's primary (exclusive?) interest is in topics related to his home country of Georgia, it's not surprising to me at all that he has done very little editing here since his topic ban was imposed (for fear of being seen to have violated the ban if nothing else), so I don't think his low activity should be held against him. I am concerned about Jaqeli's past misbehaviour regarding edit warring, blocks, etc., and I do feel that if the community decides to give him one more chance, it should be made extremely clear to him that this will absolutely be his last chance — he must take any disputes promptly to accepted dispute resolution procedures and accept resolution outcomes gracefully, and he must accept that any future sanctions will almost certainly take the form of an indefinite / permanent site ban. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 17:08, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Kansas BearHaving edited in the Caucasus region, I have "interacted" with Jaqeli in a limited capacity. I believe he does do good work, however due to Georgia's location, the Caucasus is not an easy area to edit. I think, in the long run, Richwales idea would be best for Jaqeli. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:27, 8 March 2015 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by JaqeliAfter quickly looking at this, I think this topic ban could at least be changed and narrowed by limiting it to the subjects related to Caucasian alphabets. I think this is main POV of Jaqeli. Then his strange editing here discussed with Sandstein would be covered by the new restriction, but allowed him editing any Georgia-related subjects not related to the alphabets. In addition, banning someone from Georgian subjects on the basis of Armenia-Azerbaijan sanctions (both are different countries) might be a little questionable. My very best wishes (talk) 23:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Jaqeli
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Gerda Arendt
User:Gerda Arendt is advised that their two comment limit, in discussions about Infoboxes, is a bright-line rule and that conduct like that exhibited at the Lawrence Olivier article's talk page is a breach of their restriction and will be sanctioned if repeated. User:SchroCat is reminded that anyone requesting enforcement who comes with unclean hands runs the risk of their request being sanctioned themselves. They are also advised that implying misconduct on the part of editors like User:Gerda Arendt who are restricted from replying/responding to such accusations may be seen as misconduct itself. User:Francis Schonken is warned for filing a vexatious request at WP:AE. They are also cautioned that further abuse of process or attempts to harass other editors will incur sanctions.--Cailil talk |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Gerda Arendt
(all diffs are edits by Gerda Arendt:)
Discussed the inclusion of the infobox in the Frédéric Chopin article three or four times, on at least two talk pages. I have brought to Gerda's attention before (e.g. " ... please stop discussing individual article's infobox inclusions on various pages not directly connected to the article's talk page (e.g. here) as it are "comments in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article" per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Gerda Arendt restricted. I think I explained this before." [2]) that probably the discussions *on individual articles* at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Quality Article Improvement/Infobox (e.g. [3]) are to be seen as separate counts in the ArbCom remedy cited above, and am now submitting it here to let others decide.
[4] --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:04, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Discussion concerning Gerda ArendtStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Gerda ArendtWir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir, BWV 29, GA as of today, thank you, Dr. Blofeld, but only 14 of 31 GAs in Classical compositions are by me ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:55, 10 March 2015 (UTC) @SchroCat: I repeat my simple request of yesterday, which was not about infoboxes:
Please go to the new user's talk and explain why you reverted their third edit in this Wikipedia. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:46, 10 March 2015 (UTC) The number of emails I found in my archive as sent to SchroCat is 2. I am willing to publish them completely with the exception of one too personal line about another editor. Quoting from the first, sent 4 March 2015 in response to one from him:
What can we do? I can see now how pointy my second email was because the subject was "laugh". I should have known that one has to stay seriuz in infobox matters. I envy a bit people who can say: I've never taken part in the infobox wars. The not taking part in them is one of my favorite parts of Wikipedia - I feel like the nurse on the battleground and will not leave ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC) @T. Canens: You brought up a very interesting question: what the restriction is meant to be. I confess that I have lived with it for a while now, and generally find it helpful to walk away after two comments (example pictured), but why I was restricted I still don't know and stopped asking. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC) I think all diffs show that I am aware of the restriction and don't need a reminder ;) - I am rather proud of having gained the status of the most severely restricted person in the infobox wars without ever having been in an edit war, - not easy ;) - I am happy that an article where my addition of an infobox has been regarded as disruptive (I would have said premature) in 2013 received one today. Thank you, Voceditenore! - I am not interested in boomerang actions, but would be helped if the questionable closing of a discussion on Chopin could be evaluated by independent minds. Votes were simply counted, regardless of the same person accepting or even installing a compromise later. I think a revert and asking who would accept the compromise might be a good idea. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:35, 14 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Andy Mabbett
We saw in the recent review of the infobox case how some editors use existing sanctions to harass the affected editors. Is this another case of the same thing? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:52, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Postscript: The 15 March edit consists solely of Gerda adding Re "Main editors": It is stated here, in relation to debates about whether an article should include an infobox, that " Statement by SchroCatI have had reason to ask Gerda to refrain from commenting on my talk page recently (and to stop emailing me about IBs.) While Chopin may or may not be a valid matter, the three comments in Talk:Laurence Olivier#Infobox ([5], [6] and [7]) are a breach. Although I don't think the related comment on my talk page is relevant, that on Ian Rose's page may be a fourth. I haven't done a search of the user's edit history to see if there are any further comments elsewhere. In relation to the recent William Burges discussion, although Gerda kept to two comments on the talk page ([8] and [9]), this third comment is about the IB, and is borderline (or underhand) canvassing. This (fourth) is also about the Burges IB, as is this (fifth) and this (sixth). To crown it all, and where I think she really has overstepped the mark into borderline harassment, I was not happy to receive an email from her trying to discuss the Burges IB. In relation to a different IB matter, I recieved this (which is about a user who added an infobox that I removed), and an email containing a rather pointy and incorrect message, again about infoboxes. As you can see from the thread on my talk page, I have had to ask Gerda not to post on my talk page, or email me about IBs (although why I should have to I really don't know). I think there is enough here that ArbCom should look a little more closely about this user's interaction with regard to infobox discussions.– SchroCat (talk) 15:50, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rich FarmbroughTwo of the Olivier comments are not about the inclusion or exclusion of that infobox at all, but the somewhat odd premise being promoted that the decision is up to the "main editors" of the article. The last one, be it noted, is in response to a direct allegation of WP:OWN by ShroCat. It is disappointing to see this enforcement request being brought by Frances on clearly spurious grounds. It is also disappointing to see SchroCat's statement including the Olivier diffs. Making WP:OWN (or any other) accusations against an editor you know cannot respond, is poor form. If the intent was to bait Gerda into a response it is even worse. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC). Statement by Ritchie333Notwithstanding Gerda's "go ahead punk, make my day" remark, the three comments in a row were made over a week ago and the debate came to a natural end. There doesn't seem to be anything that requires actively enforcing. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 23:29, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by CollectTry as I might, I see no conceivable violation of her restriction. Even counting a !vote as being a "comment" which I find a tad iffy. Calling a font-colour change a "comment" is not impressive. Collect (talk) 13:37, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by ChedI am glad to see that "boomerang" has been mentioned. I've always wondered how Arbcom managed to restrict 2 editors on the pro-infobox side, and yet only remind those removing them. Especially given that Gerda had never been blocked, and multiple members of the exclusive "composer" group have multiple blocks for edit warring. In fact, about the only "warnings" I can recall before the 2013 case involved editors removing infoboxes with "do not revert MY edit". Now I have no doubt that many of said composer group would like nothing better than to be rid of Gerda and the scandalous idea of having an infobox in any of "their" articles, but I pesky old WP:Local consensus thing has been a stumbling block in so many efforts. The (very) recent efforts to remove Pigsonthewing from all things infobox resulted in there actually being fewer restrictions in his particular case. I know that Gerda won't "appeal" the 2013 case, so I'll skip that paragraph. The hounding and harassment that has come from a few select members of that composer group does indeed need to be considered though. And while I'm content to sit up here, I ask the reviewing admins to consider this. — Ched : ? 21:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by AtsmeI see no evidence that indicates Gerda is in violation. I agree with a lot of what Ched described, although I have not researched the history to that extent. However, based on what was presented here, my conclusion is zilch - nada - and I don't think there is anything I've overlooked. Atsme☯Consult 00:06, 14 March 2015 (UTC) Suggestion by Thryduulf@Cailil:. I'm commenting here as a semi-involved admin not as an arbitrator as I'm recused from the infoboxes topic.
I would suggest a slight change to the final sentence of your proposal: "They are also cautioned that further abuse of process or attempts to harass Given that this sentence is directed at Francis Schonken including his name is redundant, and my change makes it clear that the problem with the behaviour is that it is harassment not that the target is Gerda (i.e. it's not OK to harass somebody else instead). Thryduulf (talk) 11:06, 16 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Gerda Arendt
So closed--Cailil talk
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DHeyward
Multi-way interaction ban imposed by Gamaliel. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:09, 14 March 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning DHeyward
I have no idea
should be obvious
DHeyward takes me to task:
But of course my complaint is neither specious nor tendentious. I made a technical inquiry at ARCA regarding an obscurity in their recent decision, explaining why I needed this clarification and requesting Arbcom to clarify their intent. The response has been a coordinated outpouring of vituperation directed at me and urging my immediate banishment. DHeyward proceeds to lecture Gamaliel on the history of my topic ban, perhaps forgetting that Gamaliel started this entire sorry episode. I am confident that Gamaliel understands every nook and cranny by now. But DHeyward also understands every nook and cranny, as this last episode was of his contrivance -- carefully planned offsite and also celebrated there. DHeyward tars me with making a personal attack on Thargor Orlando at Arbitration Enforcement, but of course Arbitration Enforcement concerns enforcement actions against editors. Editorial misbehavior is the essence of complaints at WP:AE; in contrast, the ARCA discussion did not concern editorial behavior of any kind. DHeyward has, of course, been an avid proponent of WP:CPUSH and WP:FLAT arguments at Gamergate and related pages. His arguments (if these be arguments) here reflect that, and they should be familiar to administrators and indeed to most who are active there. As time is short, I simply allude to them here. As some argue that my topic ban extends, or should extend, or should immediately be extended, to preclude remedy, I'm filing this without further delay. I apologize to overworked administrators.
Literary sidenote: DHeyward is now all aflutter over a literary allusion on my talk page. It’s Julius Caesar III.1.278-290: “Domestic fury and fierce civil strife...” Relax folks. (and good grief!) MarkBernstein (talk) 22:37, 10 March 2015 (UTC) I completely endorse Gamaliel’s proposal, provided related proposals I have discussed with Gamaliel and with HJ Mitchell are honored as well, as I am confident they will be. With regard to offsite planning: I sent two administrators two offsite links to discussions of proposed attacks on my integrity, twelve hours before those attacks appeared for the first time on-wiki. I have also sent a separate forum post, claiming to have been written by a recently banned editor, explaining how to exploit Wikipedia policy along these very lines. The current discussion stems from a news story -- one of many recent news stories -- reporting on the way Gamergate supporters have colluded in their use of Wikipedia. Individual Wikipedians may regret these news stories and find them embarrassing, but I did not expect to be faulted for mentioning here what reporters throughout the world consider to be thoroughly established. (This issue has clear implications for the efficacy of Gamaliel’s proposal, obviously. I merely draw attention to this so Gamaliel or others may consider whether new policy may be needed to address this when it arises in some future dispute among other parties.) I'd like to remind people one last time that this is not merely a content dispute about fringe theories or inbox footnotes: real people are being harassed and actual careers are being destroyed while Wikipedia is perverted. I have done what I could to stop it; I have been assured that it will be stopped; in the long run, I am confident that sufficient eyes outside Wikipedia have been brought to bear on this area of the project that either Wikipedia will learn to protect the victims or it will suffer even greater consequences. I should like few things better, in fact, than to comply with Gamaliel’s excellent suggestion. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning DHeywardStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DHeywardAnother tendentious and pointy request by MarkBernstein. Considering he has mulitple discussions going on at AE, ANI and ARBCA, I think it's time we need to discuss a site ban for MarkBernstein or at least a long block. --DHeyward (talk) 22:08, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
It appears that MarkBernstein is now here to wreak "Havoc" on the community[16] with these filings. That along with his history of WP:NOTHERE and it may be time to show him the door. Literary sidenote, the quote of 'havoc' in Shakespeare only reinforces WP:NOTHERE and WP:BATTLEGROUND, not alleviate it. --DHeyward (talk) 22:24, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Gamaliel Please post where I have done anything you have alleged. To be specific, MarkBernstein has filed 2 AE requests, 1 ARBCA request and 1 ANI request as well as posting to Jimbo's talk page since his topic ban. I am not sure where you are getting the impression that this anything more than a 1 sided barrage of filings and it affects more than just THargor Orlando and me. --DHeyward (talk) 00:10, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Ched I can say without reservation that Gamaliel - as I've already been acting in the way you propose and haven't brought any complaints about MarkBernstein to any boards or even discussed it on article talk pages. I brought his comments directly to two uninvolved admins who both agreed they were not civil and both took action. I would not have participated here if I wasn't called to do so but I can agree not to bring any issues to noticeboards as that is what I've already been doing. There is no need for a sanction since the behavior doesn't really exist and it appears this complaint should be closed the same as the one above it. BTW, if you are in possession of "offsite links", please send them. I categorically deny any involvement with any offsite groups that are targeting MarkBernstein or anyone else. --DHeyward (talk) 20:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC) This AE request is predicated on the one above it which was closed. Not sure how this one is still valid if the other is not. --DHeyward (talk) 22:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Gamaliel has invoked a sanction without any evidence that the behavior he is trying to stop ever happened. He cited comments made on this AE request as being problemtic. I ask that he reverse this as MarkBernstein had no standing to bring a complaint. If Gamaliel could cite where I violated anything related to his topic ban, he should do so. The fact is that I brought MB's behavior to two neutral admins even before Gamaliel requested. I didn't discuss it with MarkBernstein or engage him in any way except in arbitrtation space. Please show a problematic encounter where I did something improper. Please note that Bernstein is again at AE where he repeated the comment that led to his topic ban. Is that editor now also subject to a sanction? They did more official filing than I did. There simply is no justification for this. I am happy to abide by Gamaliels request on a gentlemans agreement but having it logged as wrongdoing I will not stand for. Gamaliel's sanction would not change a single thing that I did or what happened to MarkBernstein or the subsequent issues he created for himself and I will be forced to challenge this rather specious argument that the persons named in an AE request are responsible for the filing. EdJohnston is correct. Gamaliel didn't attribute the context of the remarks he cited or the author and he fails to state that the only editor bringing stuff to noticeboards is MarkBernstein. I did not file anything or make comments in article or user space, just here. --DHeyward (talk) 18:39, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Liz I didn't file an AE request for this (or ANI or any other drama board). Why would you endorse a sanction without a single diff? We were dragged here by MarkBernstein who filed an ARBCA, ANI and 2 AE requests. All of Gamaliels quotes are from responding to MB (and not properly attributed or given in context). MB is currently named in a 3rd AE request but Gamaliel hasn't proposed an IBAN for NE Ent. --DHeyward (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MONGOI do not see a personal attack. I see a diff that merely states an observation. A personal attack might be to call someone an asshole or along those lines.--MONGO 22:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC) One of the worst arbcom closures appears to be manifesting itself as one of the worst decisions I have ever seen at arbitration enforcement. How ridiculous that DHeyward might face a topic ban for merely pointing out a basic observation of fact. It's way past time to site ban Bernstein and if his filing this AE complaint, which is only the latest violation of his own topic ban, is not enough reason to throw this frivolous nonsense in the gutter then all the admins clamoring for a topic ban for DHeyward need to get their heads examined.--MONGO 01:37, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Thargor OrlandoMore retaliatory behavior. Topic ban him and extend the ban to seeking sanctions against other editors at this point. Why are we continuing to tolerate this behavior? Thargor Orlando (talk) 22:36, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Starship.paint@Ched: and @Gamaliel: - it appears that you have missed this statement made by MarkBernstein in this very filing. [18] But DHeyward also understands every nook and cranny, as this last episode was of his contrivance -- carefully planned offsite and also celebrated there. This is not the first time, MarkBernstein, without evidence, accuses established editors of colluding offsite. Historical evidence: [19] [20] [21] [22] You would consider this a "mild" statement, Gamaliel? I think this behaviour is worse than anything DHeyward or Thargor Orlando have produced, therefore I question the equal punishments. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 01:12, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EvergreenFirThis is becoming tendentious. There is no personal attack. DHeyward wasn't the nicest, but stated his opinion. If a clerk thought it was a personal attack, they could have removed it. Compared to the conduct issues brought up in the GGTF case, for example, DHeyward's comments are downright pleasant. This on top of the previous request are making my lose my good faith in Mark. Dismiss this request. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Tony SidawayIn view of the kind of conduct problems we're seeing here, I agree with Gamaliel's proposed solution. The involved editors should all concentrate on the editing, and not continue this attempt to conduct a kind of warfare using Wikipedia. They've all been asked to drop the stick in the recent past. These continuing incidents, while not necessarily rising to the level we'd normally sanction, have no place on Wikipedia. This proposal goes to the heart of the problems identified in the arbitration case. --TS 13:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC) NE EntGamaliel solution: +1. NE Ent 23:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by GoldenRingA weighty matter, come behold, With apologies to DHeyward, for putting one or two words in his mouth, and to the good Doctor for taking one or two out of his. GoldenRing (talk) 00:34, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Strongjam
— Strongjam (talk) 00:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by RhoarkI think it would be a mistake to proceed on the basis of assuming culpability on the part of anyone except MarkBernstein. All DHeyward or ThargorOrlando stand accused of is calling a spade a spade, whereas the number of times MarkBernstein has cast aspersions or filed frivolous motions and been extended more WP:ROPE defies counting. Rhoark (talk) 00:48, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by EncyclopediaBobIf the intent is to limit interaction between Mark and these users in the Gamergate space, and Mark is already topic banned making interaction impossible, how can we consider topic banning these users "preventative"? Until Mark's ban expires or is reversed there's no benefit to eliminating these editors from the space even if one could find cause. —EncyclopediaBob (talk) 01:44, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by LizI haven't checked every diff and every aspect of the disputants' arguments. I'm not advocating a topic or site ban for anyone. Just as an editor who is peripherally (marginally!) involved in editing in the Gamergate controversy area, I am tired of continually seeing complaints involving editors working in these articles brought to AE and I'm sure that admins who frequent this forum are tired of seeing them as well. While some cases have had merit and topic bans were justified, the growing number of editors who have received topic bans through proceedings at this board and the increasing reliance on AE as a way to resolve interaction disputes is worrisome. From what I've seen, editors on both sides of this topic have filed complaints here and the only action I would recommend is an admonishment to only bring serious infringements of WP:BLP to this board. I endorse Gamaliel's proposal and suggest it might be a model in cases where disputants file repeated cases against each other. Liz Read! Talk! 21:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning DHeyward
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NorthBySouthBaranof
No action on this occasion due to a good-faith misunderstanding, but those edits are very much within the scope of the topic ban and any future such edits will likely result in a block. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:04, 15 March 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning NorthBySouthBaranof
All edits concern Lena Dunham, the subject of several of gender-related controversies:
User:NorthBySouthBaranof continually toes the line of his topic ban [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] now stepping far over.
He's been advised several times by respected editors to disengage but maintains he will "not be silenced and intimidated" [33] [34] [35] despite the topic ban, as his most recent edits prove. Given the ineffectiveness of the topic ban I suggest a temporary site ban to prevent future violations, and a reversion of the article to its previous state. @NorthBySouthBaranof: I'd suggest that notifying you personally and civilly not once but twice over several weeks before bringing this request is exactly the opposite of "stir[ring] up drama". @Bishonen: @Konveyor Belt: I specifically limited my diffs to feminism (and its opposition) and campus rape, which the commenting arbs all agree [36] is within the scope of the DS. I genuinely appreciate your assumption of good faith but I didn't intend to stretch the scope whatsoever. Even narrowly construed I believe these edits fall within it. And I find it difficult to take NorthBySouthBaranof's incredulity that Gamergate sanctions apply to this article sincerely, when the discussion on his talk page prompted by my post last month [37] suggested it with reasonable arguments, and the arbs comments in the above clarification request just yesterday (a discussion in which NorthBySouthBaranof participated) [38] removed any doubt. —EncyclopediaBob (talk) 21:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning NorthBySouthBaranofStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NorthBySouthBaranofThe article in question is the biography of a notable woman. I have edited the article to conform with basic policies, and intend to continue to expand the biography in keeping with basic policies. It is notable that I have identified at least one user with a demonstrated vendetta against the article subject, and who has expressed a continued desire to "fix" Dunham's article in a negative manner. The reporting user is a single-purpose account with eight substantive articlespace contributions but a vast array of talk-page edits, noticeboard postings and general support of Gamergate-related subjects, leaping directly into encyclopedia politics from the minute they arrived. I submit that the reporting user is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to stir up drama and conflict. The statements of mine they cite re "disengagement" have nothing to do with the article in question — rather, they have to do with the subject of Gamergate. It is demonstrable that I have disengaged from Gamergate. Lena Dunham's article has absolutely nothing to do with Gamergate. The only way in which this possibly could be said to relate to the topic ban is that Lena Dunham is a woman who has written about being a victim of sexual assault. Does ArbCom intend for my topic ban to encompass every woman or man who has ever written about sexual assault, or been the victim of sexual assault, or reported on sexual assault, or discussed sexual assault? Is that truly the case? If so, let ArbCom be clear that for alleged transgressions on an article about a video game controversy, it intends for me to be indefinitely prohibited from editing a vast array of articles about or relating to women (and men). If that is the case, you need to be entirely and thoroughly clear that the Wikipedia Arbitration Committee believes anyone who has ever been sexually assaulted, written about sexual assault, reported on sexual assault, prosecuted sexual assault, studied sexual assault, portrayed a victim of sexual assault on stage or screen, etc. etc. etc. has willingly or unwillingly become part of a "gender-related controversy." The topic ban would thus extend from The Vagina Monologues to Oprah Winfrey, A Time to Kill (1996 film) to Lady Gaga, Teri Hatcher to Tyler Perry, Nevada Barr to the University of Idaho. I submit that such is absurdly overbroad, unfairly unenforceable and wholly unnecessary to the purpose of the Gamergate controversy arbitration case.
Statement by Konveyor Belt (uninvolved)@NBSB: You were tbanned under the standard tban as defined in the case as As stated in MarkBernstein's ARCA request by the arbs, sexual assault is pretty clearly a gender related area. Nobody, including the ArbCom, needs to define that. The very definition of sexual assault and the resulting controversies prove that pretty well. And per C, Lena Dunham is thus someone associated with a gender-related dispute or controversy. KonveyorBelt 18:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by TheRedPenOfDoomContrary to common sense it appears the ArbCom is going all in on their "we value the semblance of non-disruption and editors who are the target of coordinated outside disruption need to be purged" . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:13, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by CaililSorry Bish but you're wrong on this one. The Lena Dunham diffs are topic ban violations. The mix of BLP, controversy and gender issues is clearly there[39][40]. Anyone banned under ARBGG's ruling should not be making these kinds of edits--Cailil talk 22:17, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by RhoarkNorthBySouthBaranof is a valuable defender of innocent people from BLP violations; however, in their zeal they seem to have good faith difficulty interpreting the terms of their topic ban. The purpose of the broad scope of the ban is to prevent the same behavioral issues from being exported to new pages. That is exactly what has happened here, in terms of a zeal for BLP causing unwillingness to recognize other points of view, along with blanking discussions in a way not justified by WP:BLPTALK[41]. I'm in favor of extending WP:ROPE with the understanding that for BLP issues where there's a shred of doubt whether WP:BANEX applies NorthBySouth will bring it to [[42]] or other appropriate avenues. Rhoark (talk) 23:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (anonymous)I can find very little of substance in NorthBySouthBaranof's response here, nor those of the people defending him. The filer's contribution history is not relevant to the truth of the claims; and anyway would anyone really be satisfied if the motion were to be re-opened by someone else? Seems to me like we all know how that sort of thing usually goes - "stop forum-shopping"; "this repeated action is harassment" etc. As for the WP:NOTHERE charge, I can hardly imagine an act which contributes more to Wikipedia than ensuring that disruptive editors are justly sanctioned. (Well, one could directly clean up the mess, but that's a little harder to do when it's caused by a more established editor than the one noticing the problem.) It ought to be obvious, to anyone who has been paying attention, how Lena Dunham is connected to gender-based controversy. Her book specifically relates her experiences as a woman; she has been accused of sexual abuse - an accusation which is clearly controversial and which many believe would be treated differently if she were a man; and her allegation of sexual assault apparently led to a witch-hunt of an innocent man - again seen by many as a men's rights issue. (I also note here that Wikipedia appears to have an interesting habit of consistently identifying "conservative" sources as such, while not applying the tag "liberal" similarly; and this is clearly evident in the case of the Lena Dunham article. Of course I do not mean to bring a content dispute here, but it's meaningful context - the informed observer will note a very strong tendency, in gender-related controversies, for "feminists" to be identified with liberalism and "MRAs" with conservatism, regardless of the accuracy of those statements.) Arbcom's decision was clear, and deliberate. The prohibition on "gender-related controversy, broadly construed" is certainly and obviously not meant to apply to all individuals connected to sexual assault claims. However, it strains credulity to imagine that NorthBySouthBaranof honestly cannot see how Lena Dunham is not "just another victim" in this regard. There is nothing controversial about Oprah Winfrey's speaking out about being molested as a child, and it was nearly 3 decades ago. Lena Dunham's book is current, and there is plenty of plainly evident controversy. Regarding defenders, I'm especially bothered by the apparent lack of civility on @TheRedPenOfDoom:'s part. Referring to "purges" and "superior orders" seems like rather deliberately constructed imagery. But anyway, these vague claims of 76.64.12.157 (talk) 02:30, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by coldacidOf the linked, non-stale diffs provided by the complainant, only one does not directly deal with sexual controversy in the Lena Dunham article. It's honestly baffling to me that anyone would not consider them such. We've already gone over all this in WP:ARCA regarding GG discretionary sanctions and campus rape versus the scope of the GG topic ban. Were the edits purely deletionary with regard to possible BLP violations, then they would fall under WP:BANEX but from what I observed, there is actual content editing beyond simply removing BLP vios in those diffs. Given the opinions from some of the admins below and from the ARCA discussion, I believe NBSB should be formally warned, at a minimum, that this behaviour is a violation of his topic ban. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 01:13, 14 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning NorthBySouthBaranof
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MarkBernstein
Misconduct on arbitration pages is, and always has been, a matter for the clerks, not for AE. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:08, 15 March 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning MarkBernstein
Dreadstar: [44] "Due to your continued comments about other editors [45], I'm imposing upon you a 90-day ban on all edits about, and all pages related to, (a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate."
Discussion concerning MarkBernsteinStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MarkBernsteinGreat Caesar’s Ghost! Shades of Kafka, yes, but also Lewis Carroll, Gilbert and Sullivan, and Catch-22! This affair has more nuttiness than a candy factory in a hurricane. Let’s look briefly at how we got into this fine mess, and how we might still get out. 1. Last Sunday at the Gamergate Talk page, we were discussing a recent article about collusive editing at the Gamergate page. In the course of that discussion, I made an indirect and general allusion to -- wait for it! -- collusive editing at the Gamergate page. 2. This topic has been reported in newspapers, studied in seminars and scholarly journals, and was recently discussed (by my Congresswoman, Katherine Clark D-MA) on the floor of the US House of Representatives. If uncivil it be, the planet is awash in incivility. 3. @Dreadstar: topic-banned me for alluding to this subject, under Gamergate Discretionary Sanctions. I was surprised -- but little surprises me these days when it comes to Wikipedia. (Little did I know how strange things would shortly grow.)
4. A few minutes before, I had told an activist who had written to me that I was willing keep an eye on [Campus_Rape] and associated pages. Now, @NorthBySouthBaranof:, who is topic banned under Discretionary Sanctions, had been criticized for editing the page of comedian Lena Dunham, who is probably not the first person who springs to mind when you think of GamerGate, nor even the hundred and first. Does Campus Rape fall under GamerGate sanctions? When in doubt, ask! I sent a quick email query to @Dreadstar: and to three other admins, posing this conundrum and explaining why I was asking. 5. Not having received a reply, but being engaged on my own talk page, I repeated the query there. Shortly afterward, I received a string of angry and threatening messages from Dreadstar, the last calling me a "motherfucker." (Believe me, I was absolutely astonished! What on earth could have provoked this?)
6. Unfortunately, the Motherfucker Memo failed to indicate whether or not the topic ban applied to Campus Rape. Not receiving any guidance overnight or the following morning, I wondered, “whom might I ask?” It turns out that the Arbitration Committee has established a page, Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment (ARCA), where one may request clarification! Seeking clarity, I did, asking what I had asked before:
The Arbitration Committee proceeded to discuss the matter, and as far as I know they continue to do so. I may not agree with their line of reasoning, but they have not asked for my opinion and I have not offered it: I simply asked what they intended. 7. Some third parties did express opinions of various sorts on various topics. A number expressed great displeasure with me and urged that I be sternly punished. I responded -- as people frequently do at ARCA -- in my own area with one or two temperate observations, reminding all that (a) the question at hand was what Arbcom meant to say, to which anything I might have done or said or any funny faces I might have made is perfectly irrelevant, and (b) that one proposal, put forth by an administrator, might prove unworkable in ways that are not immediately apparent. Again, this is entirely reasonable, while the denigration of my abilities, intentions, and character heaped on my head were entirely out of place
8. It is this last issue -- my suggesting that @Masem:’s proposal to vary the ambit of Discretionary Sanctions from person to person would prove both unjust and impractical -- it is this that arouses Ent’s wrath and brings us here. (I know -- you can’t make this stuff up!)
9. NEEnt also raises the question of my linking to my writing on Wikipedia from time to time, citing WP:SPAMSITES. This is silly. First, “Infamous” and its successors have been read by about 120,000 people now. They’ve been quoted in newspapers with an aggregate circulation of many millions of readers. Every tech journalist in the world is aware of the story now. The flow of traffic from an obscure inquiry page in Wikipedia is trivial; cui bono? It might also be remembered that I’ve done a bit of research in writing with links. After four dozen research papers, a writing guide that gets reprinted in high school primers, a book and several book chapters about links, linking becomes a habit. Finally: remember that I was addressing ARBCOM, people whom I’ve both denounced and ridiculed. In such circumstances, my mother always urged me to lay the bad news out clearly, rather than to hope no one has noticed.
10. I do regret whatever disruption was caused by the original transgression:
No doubt this was a very wicked thing to say, though I’m not sure how. It might violate of WP:MOMHESLOOKINGATMEFUNNY, except that's not a thing. There are worse things: One of those worse things is outing -- the real thing, not the Wikipedia thing. It can ruin careers and cost lives. This is not a mere content dispute or a fight about infoboxes. Let’s not lose track of that. 11. For all my faults, I've been a pretty useful Wikipedian. Unlikely as it seems, I might still prove useful to the project if you can find the will to listen to some of my suggestions -- or if you can contrive suggestions of your own that you can convince me are superior. Statement by RhoarkIt would be Kafkaesque to punish violation of a tban made in the process of seeking clarification on the tban through the appropriate venue. Rhoark (talk) 02:29, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (anonymous)@Rhoark: As far as I can tell, the cited diff wouldn't be affected by the clarification being sought, and there's no reason to suppose that MarkBernstein didn't know any better. MarkBernstein's outside link directly discusses Gamergate, while the ARCA is about whether "campus rape" fits under "gender related controversy". This is far from the first time he's dropped links to his blog articles on Wikipedia. There would be nothing Kafkaesque about charging someone with a crime in the middle of an ongoing trial, if they actually flagrantly committed a crime right in the courtroom. 76.64.12.157 (talk) 02:49, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by HipocriteA little confused here. NE Ent appeared to remove MB's topic ban here. Also, if MB's topic ban includes requests for clarification, how is he supposed to understand his topic ban (which, by the way, no longer exists)? Hipocrite (talk) 02:52, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Starship.paint@Hipocrite: - NE Ent closed that discussion with (per OP request). Seeing that the OP is MarkBernstein, it would seem ridiculous if NE Ent had lifted MarkBernstein's topic ban directly due to MarkBernstein's request? Perhaps the topic closure was done per MarkBernstein's request. Nevertheless, would appreciate @NE Ent: to comment on this. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 03:26, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
@Hipocrite and @Rhoark: - by all means, MarkBernstein is within his means to clarify his ban at ARCA, but such clarification did not need blatant advertising of his own blog discussing GamerGate. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 03:36, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by coldacidProbably foolish to have included that link in his ARCA request, but as far as I know you're allowed to say or link anything short of out-and-out libellous or threatening statements. Besides, this is right in front of the arbs themselves; if MarkBernstein's putting out enough rope to hang himself, ArbCom can set him on the gallows themselves. I'd suggest just close this one. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 01:17, 14 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning MarkBernstein
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Cwobeel
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Cwobeel
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- ChrisGualtieri (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 06:36, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Cwobeel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:NEWBLPBAN
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 03:43, 23 January 2015 Original insertion of an inaccurate, out of context, and less than half a sentence passing mention sourced to an organization with long standing disputes with Emerson.
- 17:55, 23 January 2015 Adding: " One more source for good measure)" A tiny quip labeling him as an Islamophobe without any reason or evidence.
- 4:27, 2 March 2015 Reinserting into lead after protection lapsed.
- 16:31, 2 March 2015 Continuing after a month long protection to insert inappropriate material
- 4 March 2015 Inserting the material again despite no consensus
- Steven Emerson - Part 3 - A BLPN discussion is made and Cwobeel acknowledges WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE
- 7 March 2015 Restoring the problematic material again during a BLPN dispute.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 12 December 2014 - Cwobeel was notified of the AC/DS for BLP.
- 24 January 2015 He was blocked for violating the sanctions after I submitted a Arbitration Enforcement request when the user was restoring unsourced BLPs - and sourced them only to IMDb and arguing with an admin over whether or not it was appropriate.
- 25 January 2015 A sanction was placed on "Awards and nominations" except for adding Reliable Sources - This sanction is not relevant here, but it was the end result of the previous AE about BLP.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This needs a bit of background. The source being used here is from organizations which Emerson has had legal battles with and has actually sued for defamation arising from said disputes. Cwobeel asserts that the sources are high-quality and reliable despite this. Biased sources exist, but accusations of bigotry are very serious and should not be sourced to less than a single sentence. Secondly, the only source which gives a "reason" is actually committing a very biased and judgmental attack on Emerson. Emerson has also highlighted that it is a partial quote being used.[48] Within hours of the Oklahoma City Bombing, media, law enforcement and even the FBI raised concerns of Islamic terrorism.[49] Emerson was not the origin, but merely one of numerous persons used by the media to further the Islamic Terrorism angle, he simply acknowledged the speculative and rampant rumor about six hours after the blast. Publications from the Wall Street Journal to the The New York Post ran stories with other experts (not Emerson) making clear the "middle east" terrorism links.
After the removal on March 4, the BLPN petered around a bit. Essentially the "gaff" is important and everyone agrees it needs to be in the article - but the "Islamophobe source" accusation is shown to be flawed and have no consensus to be included and Cwobeel re-added it anyways. Unfortunately this is not an isolated example because Cwobeel has also repeatedly edit warred to re-insert completely false material shown here removing an ACLU reference (containing the document) and replacing it with the erroneous and false claim saying it does not exist. I do not understand why Cwobeel does these things or has this attitude, but can the article also be placed on 1RR restriction since the 1 month protection failed to stop this?
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Cwobeel
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Nomoskedasticity
This AE filing is a gambit in a content dispute. It's fine for the OP to disagree with the proposed edit, but when several other editors dissent from the notion that it's a BLP violation [51] it's very poor form to state that notion here as if it were an indisputable fact. The basis for the claim includes the idea that because Emerson sued a couple of scholars over the way he was characterised by them the scholars are therefore unusable as sources about him. That's a very strange idea, and again it does not enjoy consensus in discussions about this article. What that means is that "the 'Islamophobe source' accusation is shown to be flawed" is a matter of the OP's opinion. I really don't see how all of this adds up to a need for an immediate block, nor a block at all. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, there's a context here that's worth knowing; I've just addressed your point via a post on BLPN; perhaps it's redundant to repeat it here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MrX
Isn't it standard practice to allow the accused to make a statement on their own behalf in Arbcom enforcement cases, especially when the case is opened in the middle of the night? I'm deeply concerned about the strained interpretation of WP:BLP being advanced here, on the basis of original research and without the consensus of the community. In my opinion, these types of blocks based on novel interpretation of policy have a potentially chilling effect on open editing of any BLPs and the potential for seriously affecting neutral POV by keeping any and all negative information out of articles if anyone objects. - MrX 17:05, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Atsme: The diffs you provided are not evidence of Cwobeel violating BLP. The first three are complaints from you and ChrisGualtieri. Specifically, in the first diff, ChrisGualtieri conflates source bias with reliability. The second diff is not evidence of wrongdoing by Cwobeel, or Coffeepusher for that matter. The third diff merely shows that ChrisGualtieri objects to this edit sourced to The Guardian or maybe it was this edit sourced to a WP:NEWSBLOG on the Washington Post by Adam Taylor who writes about foreign affairs for The Washington Post. This bold merge that you claim is tendentious editing, is neither tendentious nor a BLP violation, although it may have been WP:UNDUE. Callenecc protected the article because of edit warring/content dispute, and apparently because he thought there were BLP violations, contrary to finding at WP:BLP/N. We need to protect BLP's from real policy violations, and get out of this groupthink culture where editors can falsely claim BLP violations, and repeat it over and over until good editors start questioning their own judgement.- MrX 19:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Serialjoepsycho
I could only struggle to say that this is a bad call, because simply it's not. It is a good call. Very straight forward. With that said however I'm not sure this case calls for a straight forward call. [52] This diff really seems in good faith. While I did suggest Cwobeel seek a formal closure,it does seem his view of the consensus is correct. Perhaps he should have waited longer before instituting the change. In this case a direct warning and pointing out the problematic behavior may very well suffice. The thing is the article was just locked down for a month. I'm not sure this does anything to target the disruption to the article, just perhaps Cwobeel's. I'd hate to see DS to be used as a replacement for consensus making and reviewing related conversations of the subject of Steven Emerson I question if that may be what is happening. I'd like to ask you to consider over turning this block and I would like to also ask that you consider Chris' request above to institute 1RR in the article if you haven't already.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Cwobeel
Given that this was unarchived to address HJ Mitchell's concern in which he states that I'm concerned that Cwobeel has a tendency to revert without discussion and to dismiss good-faith BLP concerns that he personally deems to be invalid rather than waiting for consensus on noticeboards and talk pages
, here is my response:
- I have learned my lessons from previous sanctions, and striving to be more careful.
- In this specific instance I initiated a BLP/N discussion and waited for consensus to emerge before reinstating the material. As per other editors commenting here, I may not have been the best person to take that initiative, and I should have waited for someone else to perform that edit, but that was a mere technicality.
- The block was uncalled for if HJ Mitchell had taken some time to look at the context. There was no reason to assume that I would revert, because I did not. Other editors did that and for good reason as there was an established consensus to override WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE.
- We need a better process to deal with situations in which editors use BLPREQUESTRESTORE as a blunt instrument, as I believe it was the case here. I respected BLPREQUESTRESTORE, started a thread to solicit uninvolved editor's input at BLP/N, got consensus, and still the OP felt entitled to post an AE and waste an enormous amount of time.
- AE requests are serious matters, and there is an expectation that admins take some time to evaluate the situation before pulling the trigger, and assess the OPs arguments not just prima facie.
I hope to continue editing BLPs in my area of interest, and will strive to be extra careful when BLPREQUESTRESTORE is raised, using BLP/N and DR as necessary. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark (uninvolved)
While it would have been preferable for Cwobeel to edit more patiently, the same is true of ChrisGualtieri. It takes two to edit war. This enforcement request looks above all like forum shopping and an attempt to sudo a content dispute when BLP/N looked to be leaning Cwobeel's way. BLP matters should be treated carefully of course, but when there's consensus that the burden of proof has been met for BLP restoration only little concession is due to an editor refusing to acknowledge that proof. The actual dispute seems to have more to do with due weight than BLP, concerning use of the word "Islamophobic". Having no prior knowledge of the article subject, I turned to Google. In the first three pages there was not one source that discussed Emerson in any context other than making false statements with the effect of inciting fear and anger against Muslims. Some used the word "Islamophobic" and some did not, but if that's not an accurate paraphrase I don't know what is. There are many more incidents than just Oklahoma City. I'm sure there's probably much more to the man, but Islamophobia seems to be his principal area of notability. Other paraphrasings are possible, but as a general matter it belongs in the lede. Given there was definitely disruption on the page, it was appropriate to provisionally block, but I'm glad it has been reversed and the matter is getting closer attention. It shouldn't have even taken an appeal to get a more skeptical view. I don't think any further remedy is necessary. Rhoark (talk) 18:16, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Gaijin42
CWobeel and I have interacted on a quite a few articles. Usually from completely opposite political perspectives. In some cases, I have had great frustration with his edits (the feeling is likely mutual). One case I can remember is him insisting on repeatedly removing Ted Cruz's well known Cuban identification. However, on the whole cwobeel is an editor that can be reasoned with and collaborated with.
We were largely on opposite sides of most debates in the Michael Brown article, and while debates there often got heated, the interactions were largely collaborative, and Cwobeel's participation was not a disruption, and helped to bring balance to the article (if by nothing else ensuring that those he disagreed with were using proper sources and accurately representing them). He made a particularly strong contribution with his addition of the shooting scene diagram, and was open to including lengthy rework and feedback at significant cost of his own time and effort, including multiple elements that largely disagreed with his POV (and which ultimately proved to be pivotal in the DOJ/City reports).
There are a great many editors of all stripes involved in editing controversial and heated topics. These topics by their nature are often more likely to have flareups of warring or issues. They are also areas where editors are likely to try and WP:GAME the system with ANI/E3 reports to gain an upper hand, which goes a long way to explain the number of blocks. If these incidents are relatively infrequent, the short term consequences of the relevant blocks seem to be sufficient punishment and deterrent.
I have no comment on this particular edit/incident as I am not involved, and do not know enough to comment.
I weigh in against any broad BLP ban, and if some intermediary sanction is required (1RR etc) I would suggest it should be of a limited timespan (a few months at the most)Gaijin42 (talk) 21:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Atsme
There is not much more I can add to what has already been stated. It appears Cwobeel is a little perplexed by the strict adherence portion of BLP policy which may explain his WP:DONTGETIT position after he was repeatedly advised of the problem. He does not appear to be either willing or able to understand BLP issues [53] [54] [55] Perhaps even more concerning is the TE evidenced here: [56] wherein he added minority opinions in such a way it created UNDUE. He also expanded the section about Emerson's organization, Investigative Project on Terrorism, in the biography knowing IPT has its own article. Callanecc finally PP the article until mid-May. [57] Atsme☯Consult 20:38, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Cwobeel
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I've blocked Cwobeel for a fortnight to prevent the immediate disruption (which is the restoration of the material while it was being discussed at BLPN). Considering this is the second time in recent weeks that Cwobeel's conduct on BLPs as been in question at this board, I think we should consider much more rigorous sanctions, possibly even a long-term block. Note that this is Cwobeel's fifth block in less than a year, and BLP issues appear to be at the root of all of them. Cwobeel also has two logged warnings under NEWBLPBAN, and was banned by Sandstein in January from editing award lists. It seems that Cwobeel's compliance with BLP has been a long-term problem. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:39, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Nomoskedasticity and MrX: et al, the block is not based on one interpretation of BLP versus another. I have no opinion on that. The issue is that once something is removed on a good-faith BLP objection it shouldn't be restored until the concerns are addressed or consensus determines them to be meritless. Edit-warring because you disagree with your opponent's interpretation of BLP is unacceptable, and doing so citing a discussion that is still open strikes me as disingenuous. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- I've brought this back from the archive as it was never formally closed and I think wider issues with Cwobeel's conduct on BLPs bear examination. I note that Cwobeel has been blocked five times in the just under a year—twice under NEWBLPBAN, three times for edit-warring (of which two were on BLPs). I'm concerned that Cwobeel has a tendency to revert without discussion and to dismiss good-faith BLP concerns that he personally deems to be invalid rather than waiting for consensus on noticeboards and talk pages. I've unblocked Cwobeel, as the short-term block was only ever intended to deal with the immediate issue, but I think we should seriously consider some sort of revert restriction or similar (broad topic bans are a bit of a blunt instrument, and I don't think that sort of thing is warranted here). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
A Gounaris
Banned from all topics relating to Greece or the Balkans, with possibility of review after six months. EdJohnston (talk) 04:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning A Gounaris
Discussion concerning A GounarisStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by A GounarisStatement by DolescumI'm not much one for the drama boards, but I'm supporting Fut Per here. I have repeatedly asked A Gounaris to provide evidence for their assertions as can be seen in the edit summaries here and here. My exhortations seem to be falling on deaf ears. Furthermore, this revert of yet another removal of their edits, in spite of the report here having already been made, seems to indicate a battleground mentality and no desire to work with the rest of the community. This needs to stop. Dolescum (talk) 18:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning A Gounaris
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Thargor Orlando
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:36, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs) indefinitely topic banned from all edits and discussion regarding User:MarkBernstein and restricted from opening and noticeboard discussions or enforcement requests related to MarkBernstein without the permission of an uninvolved administrator.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Gamaliel (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- [91]
Statement by Thargor Orlando
Two quick housekeeping notes
- Mentions of MarkBernstein in this scenario are for background purposes only, done so under the auspices of "exceptions to limited bans", specifically "appealing the ban" (which I do here and requires discussion of the topic ban to be appealed) and, to a lesser extent, "asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban." This is not an implication of trying to enact any new disciplinary sanctions. I opted not to tag Mark in this proceeding in order to not make further implications on the matter, not to keep anyone in the dark, and any editor that thinks I made the wrong call here is free to tag him.
- I assume this is the correct forum for this. If not, a point in the correct direction would be appreciated.
This topic ban was put in place for reasons that are not entirely clear, and certainly not supported by any available evidence. Gamaliel's only real citation comes from this diff, where he claims my assertions are "worse" than what was said, and that Bernstein does not have the opportunity to respond. This was the wrong call on a number of points.
First, Gamaliel takes issues with two quotes, both from this comment. The first quote is "It's further evidence that his contributions are a negative to the article space," which is based on Bernstein's block history, multiple topic bans in the area, and own comments, and seemed self-evident. The context is where Gamaliel's second quote comes from, ""Mark's own intentions in this clarification is to drag the drama he continually creates within the Gamergate space into the campus rape disputes," which was directly related to this clarification request, which discussed Bernstein being approached by an "activist" for a "Wikipedia initiative." Given Bernstein's history in the topic space, it seemed incredibly clear to me that this was a blatant attempt to push the boundaries of his existing topic ban (a topic ban initiated by User:Dreadstar that I had no involvement in requesting, I should add) in an area he has clearly shown disruption in.
Gamaliel, in his initial comment, believes we cannot "play nice with each other." This may be granted, although I don't see why we need to "play nice" with what I believe is clear disruption. Gamaliel's claim is that I made "much worse statements about those you are complaining about," but none of those worse statements were provided. Meanwhile, the person I am "complaining about" has, in the past months, implied that I was being "deploy[ed by 8chan"], repeatedly went after me personally with untrue claims ([92][93]), and so on. This disruption is long-standing, and my statements in support of my point of view regarding his status are based clearly in the history of the situation. Statements cannot occur in a vacuum, the history simply must be taken into account.
As an added problem, the language of the topic ban is overly broad, as Bernstein has injected himself into the conflict in the real world, being quoted multiple times on blogs and having his own words reposted in legitimate media. The spirit of the topic ban suggests that Gamaliel is simply tired of having to hear appeals toward Bernstein's behavior, the wording puts my editing in the article space in jeopardy if an administrator or tendentious editor opts to try to make hay of the situation.
The Gamergate sanctions are in place to reduce the disruption in the article space, not to keep editors from making good-faith and evidence-supported appeals for their use against disruptive editors. Perhaps if my complaints were about an editor without a block and topic ban history in the sanctioned space, there might be some merit to this to discuss. Instead, the route chosen implies that I have done something wrong, tarnishes my otherwise clean record, and does the opposite of the intention of the sanctions by keeping editors in good standing from being able to combat said disruption. The topic ban on me clearly needs to be overturned on its merits.
- @Ched: the problem is that no behavior issues have been presented. Without any behavior issues to point to, there's nothing to show improvement on and nothing to address. There is no current guidance in place and no problems demonstrated, thus the immediate appeal. If you have specifics in mind, presenting those would be very helpful toward coming to a conclusion. Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:41, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Ched:: Sure, it's "better" in that it's not a topic ban, but it still implies behavioral issues that have not been detailed, and assumes that I need to be restricted in that area without evidence. The issue is not the type of ban, but that the ban exists without cause at all. To clarify, an IBAN would at least eliminate the possibility of edits at an article being used against me simply because Bernstein is quoted in the media, but it doesn't address the broader issue. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:53, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Gamaliel: can you please detail the "five months" of "disparaging comments?" Preferably with diffs so we can move forward on this? You're correct that we have repeatedly, in the proper forums and the proper formats, requested administrative interventions due to his behavior. In a sense, any dispute resolution will be "disparaging," however, so this just seems to be a complaint about our valid concerns about how this particular situation has continued to be handled. Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Gamaliel: my apologies for inadvertently misquoting you. What I'm trying to do is end the disruption, plain and simple. If we want to get down to brass tacks, if he were topic banned as I believe he should be, there would be no reason for me to continue to endorse enforcement requests (you'll note that I have never initiated one with him) because it would be done and over with. WP:BANEX allows him to defend himself, so it's not as if he can't address them, and there is no evidence you're providing that is showing that I'm trying to goad him or talking about him in areas that he cannot respond. In fact, I don't think I've raised anything that he's said or done specifically about me at all, nor am I sure he's actually addressed me in a problematic way since you lifted his block a month ago. The evidence just doesn't stack up in terms of what you believe I've done, which is why I'm not incredibly happy with being hit with the shrapnel as a result. Co-signing on an assertion that someone is continuing to be disruptive in exactly the way you have expressed that you want it to occur after they've assured the block-lifting admin they wouldn't be should not be a sanctionable offense. Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Gamaliel: I find it frustrating that, after I've been gone for two days, no actual evidence has been presented here to justify this continued action while, at the same time, appearing to want to ignore the issues of topic bans being ignored with impunity occurs on the same page. To go directly to your criticism, if I had noticed that User:YellowSandals was topic banned, I likely would have brought some attention to it, but, believe it or not, I'm really not up on a lot of the topic bans outside of the ones levied and, in a handful of specific cases, not levied by Arbcom. I would appreciate some sort of evidence-based explanation on why this should continue to be upheld at this point. When I get topic banned without any warning while other actual disruptive people get their (to use some of your words) third, fourth, umpteenth chances, it starts to give the impression of something else at play here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Gamaliel: my apologies for inadvertently misquoting you. What I'm trying to do is end the disruption, plain and simple. If we want to get down to brass tacks, if he were topic banned as I believe he should be, there would be no reason for me to continue to endorse enforcement requests (you'll note that I have never initiated one with him) because it would be done and over with. WP:BANEX allows him to defend himself, so it's not as if he can't address them, and there is no evidence you're providing that is showing that I'm trying to goad him or talking about him in areas that he cannot respond. In fact, I don't think I've raised anything that he's said or done specifically about me at all, nor am I sure he's actually addressed me in a problematic way since you lifted his block a month ago. The evidence just doesn't stack up in terms of what you believe I've done, which is why I'm not incredibly happy with being hit with the shrapnel as a result. Co-signing on an assertion that someone is continuing to be disruptive in exactly the way you have expressed that you want it to occur after they've assured the block-lifting admin they wouldn't be should not be a sanctionable offense. Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- @HJ Mitchell: under what metric are you measuring "equal responsibility?" On one side, you have someone who has never been blocked, sanctioned, or topic banned in any area of the project. On the other, you have someone who has been topic banned and blocked numerous times for repeated disruption which included personal attacks against myself. Why am I responsible for the behavior of anyone else in this instance? "In the interests of the encyclopedia," we have options to deal with disruption. Topic banning people who are not disruptive are not it. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:13, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Gamaliel
What benefit is it to the encyclopedia if these users are allowed to continue to make negative and potentially disparaging statements about Mark Bernstein?
If Mark Bernstein violates rules or sanctions, then they can report that to an administrator. This does not prevent them from seeking redress or reporting a violation, it merely prevents them from complaining about this particular user on the encyclopedia, as they have been doing for at least five months.
There are many editors and administrators on Wikipedia. They could simply leave this matter to one of them. This is something we regularly advise people to do on Wikipedia. Take the example of NorthBySouthBaranof elsewhere on this page. He is correct that something is wrong at the Lena Dunham article, but he should leave the matter for someone else to handle because his past behavior has proven disruptive in certain areas, just as the past interactions of these editors with Mark Bernstein have increased tensions and disrupted the atmosphere of collaborative editing. Gamaliel (talk) 20:57, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
@Ched: That is correct, the ban does not prevent interactions between DHeyward and Orlando. I believe I clarified that in the messages on their respective talk pages and the sanctions log, but if either are ambiguous I will correct them. I chose a topic ban over an interaction ban because I did not want to inhibit article discussion, just personal remarks. I have no particular objection to changing it if others think it necessary. Gamaliel (talk) 21:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
@Thargor Orlando: You have quoted me in a manner that changes the meaning of what I said. I did not say that the two of you have been insulting Mark Bernstein for five months. You have, however, been enthusiastic users of noticeboards and admin talk pages in an effort to get him sanctioned, and in the process said many things about him that were negative. Some of them were true, others were opinions that are valid, but may be interpreted negatively. During most of this, Mark Bernstein has been under a topic ban or other restriction which has prevented him from replying in kind, and any comment of his that is remotely like some of the things you have said about him gets another round of noticeboard reports about him, along with another opportunity for you to recapitulate your negative opinions about him. Rightly or wrongly, he perceives this as a series of attacks upon him, and has now resorted to filing retaliatory noticeboard complaints against the two of you. And then we do it all over again. This is the cycle that this sanction is attempting to stop. Gamaliel (talk) 21:23, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
@DHeyward: So prohibiting you from participating in endless noticeboard complaints "prolongs the drama" by forcing you to file a noticeboard complaint? Gamaliel (talk) 00:19, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by DHeyward
I, too, am maligned by the same topic ban by Gamaliel with not a single diff which I consider casting aspersions. Further, my contribution to this was that I brought MarkBernsteins comments to two uninvolved administrators. I did not characterize which statements were problematic but both admins sanctioned MarkBernstein for them including one topic ban. This is the remedy Gamaliel has proposed as the solution but when it led to the TBan of an editor he is sympathetic to, he seems to want to take it out on editors not involved in that. As can be seen, Gamaliel's remedy led to MarkBernstein filing an ARCA reuest, an ANI request, and two AE requests. Neither I nor Orlando have filed. In addition, another editor has filed an AE request against MarkBernstein. In response, MarkBernstein repeated the statements that led to his sanction. Gamaliel seems to be confused as to who is filing requests for enforcement. There is simply no basis for his sanction. In addition MarkBernstein was prohibited from filing AE requests per WP:BANEX. Gamaliel, being the first commenter and admin should have closed the AE request rather than stoking its flames. --DHeyward (talk) 18:58, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Ched Echoing Orlando. Gamaliel has implies it's a three way IBAN issue when really it's a single topic-banned editor (who is again at AE). Gamaliel put a lot of things in quotes without saying who and where they were said. In short, I did everything Gamaliel requested. There are no noticeboard complaints started by me over these issues. I took my concerns about a comment to two independent admins and both acted on it. Those administrative actions drove one editor to open multiple forum requests including ANI, ARCA, and two AE requests. In addition, another editor has brought an AE request against him and you can read his reply [94]. None of this has anything to do with Orlando and me. I had already done everything Gamaliel thinks I should have done and if I didn't, he hasn't provided any diffs. I have no problem with an an on-your-honor agreement but logging it as if I have an interaction issue with anyone misconstrues everything that has occurred here. Certainly there is no conflict between Orlando and I which is implied in the sanction. It has no basis. If Gamaliel's intention was to avoid drama and conflict, he should withdraw his sanction that is not based in either process or fact and let it close. EdJohnston nailed the deficiencies in the request. MarkBernstein is already topic banned so creating a sanction that both Orlando and I will appeal is only dragging out the problem needlessly. --DHeyward (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- Gamaliel I did that. How do you think MarkBernstein received a topic ban? It was by notifying two uninvolved admins. I've only responded to his AE charges that he brought to noticeboards. There are no noticeboard filings by me over this and there are no quotes you cited that he can't or didn't respond to. It seems rather an odd statement to say that my replies to MarkBernstein's noticeboard filings about me somehow have put him at a disadvantage. Where are imagining this happening? I've asked for diff's yet none are forthcoming. You made statements and put quotes around them but without attribution. EdJohnston is correct in his assessment. You should have ended the drama by closing his two WP:BANEX violating AE requests instead of feeding them. It is your sanction, without merit, that is dragging this out. Like I said, I have no intention of bringing MarkBernstein to boards and didn't so your solution is really in search of a problem. --DHeyward (talk) 21:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- Gamaliel diffs or please stop casting aspersions. Posting notices on uninvolved admins pages that have invoked sanctions on MB is NOT any kind of abuse of process. Participating in discussions where we have been the targets of his comments about editors is NOT any kind of abuse of process. I am sorry that you are upset about MBs topic ban and believe it is one-sided but you need to take it up with Dreadstar, not punish his victims. Please explain what behavior you think would be stopped by this sanction? We will still ask admins to intervene if MarkBernstein is abusive. Uninvolved admins will still sanction him. Your insistence only prolongs the drama. If you read the comments of the other admins for both cases MarkBernstein filed, you seem the only one thinking sanctions are needed. Even in Orlando's, that was summarily closed because MarkBernstein is TBanned from even making AE complaints, you still called for sanctions when others correctly saw a process error as well as nothing to warrant a sanction. Please don't make this a full on drama appeal over a sanction that does nothing but tarnish reputations and extend drama. --DHeyward (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
- Gamaliel Diffs or stop casting aspersions. A groundless sanction that wouldn't have stopped a single thing you claim to be worried out will be appealed. You have made an accusation of wrongdoing and keep mentioning board participation. I only ask for diffs which you don't supply because they don't tell the story you've been selling.. We wouldn't be here or at any boards because of me and I request you remove the sanction. Close it with no sanctions and there is no more drama. It ended with Mark's TBan. The sanction is unnecessary and I take offense at being painted with your broad brush without so much as a diff showing how your remedy would have played out differently or what egregious error in civility I made. --DHeyward (talk) 00:30, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Here [95] is the first request filed by MB. Note Gamaliel was the first admin to comment on how one-sided MB's TBan is and how his TBan should be dropped (or everyone is TBanned). Luckily cooler heads dismissed it. Moments later, MB files another AE based on comments I made in his first AE. The cooler heads did not join until later and advocated that Gamaliel at least provide a diff and also pointed out the complaint was a BANEX violation by MB. No such luck on the diff. --DHeyward (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
HJ_Mitchell, Ched The issue is this accusation of wrongdoing. In a few weeks, what exactly do you think would happen? "It won't happen again?" Exactly what will I not do to avoid this? I've been civil to MarkBernstein. There is no evidence of wrongdoing. There is no "Well both sides...." If there is, find a diff and post it. There is nothing. The fact is Gamaliel lifted his topic ban and he returned to edits that attacked other editors and I've patiently brought them to uninvolved admins. Harry, how many times have you warned MB? How many times did Dreadstar warn him? Show a diff where I should be sanctioned for doing something wrong, or even incivil. Nobody wants the toxic GamerGate atmosphere but it was re-inflicted on us when MB us unbanned and unblocked. It is now much better. Clear the sanction log because this is really just one editor violating every condition of his early release as well as the GG general sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Why is a simple request like a diff so hard to comply with? Show me a diff where this sanction would have changed anything or show me a diff of wrongdoing? --DHeyward (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
HJ_Mitchell the only thing not normal is the kid glove treatment afforded MarkBernstein. There is no animosity between parties but there is a lot of animosity between MB and anyone that disagrees with him. He's made accusations of collusion offsite, constantly refers to other editors after multiple warnings, etc, etc. This is why he is now also topic banned. I wish I had as many warnings as MarkBernstein and we could close this as I think I am due about 5 more talk page warnings before a sanction is even contemplated (and the next one would be a "stern warning"). MB endorsed this sanction and mentioned he provided admins with information and that the admins have agreed to his conditions. None of that has been disclosed or offered to anyone else. Please disclose it so we can see how "not normal" this whole ordeal has been. I see the this sanction is working based on the lack of AE requests regarding MB. The only unchanging factor is his champion.
--DHeyward (talk) 03:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark
MarkBernstein brought two frivolous motions, that he didn't have standing to file, on the basis of two editors making factual statements about MB's ban history. I really don't see how anyone could derive "equal responsibility" from that. I get that admins are sick of the whole thing and want to make it go away, but just sanctioning any names that show up at enforcement will only encourage more people with an axe to grind to try their luck at enforcement roulette. Rhoark (talk) 19:33, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
- PeterTheFourth is not uninvolved. [96] [97] [98] [99] [100] [101] Rhoark (talk) 01:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 3)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Thargor Orlando
Statement by PeterTheFourth
DHeyward requested (begged for) diffs where this remedy would have 'changed anything', so I've helpfully compiled a small list.[102][103], this entire request, [104][105][106][107], somewhat thinly veiled, [108] PeterTheFourth (talk) 01:12, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- Only this one [109] would have been prevented by the sanction. Everything else was to uninvolved admins which is allowed. --DHeyward (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Rhoark: I was of the impression that 'uninvolved' referred to editors who are not mentioned in the remedy. I'd be grateful to the editor who clarified and moved my statement if necessary. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:04, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Starke Hathaway
Applying sanctions to two veteran editors without producing any evidence of wrongdoing on their part not only offends traditional notions of fair play and procedural and substantive justice, it also fails to demonstrate that (1) there is a problem with these editors' behavior and (2) that the imposed sanctions will do anything to cure this problem. Particularly where, as here, the imposing admin has toed the line of involvement in the topic area and has a non-negligible history of sympathetic involvement with the editor who requested action against these two editors, I do not think this was a proper exercise of admin authority. Besides, I count no fewer than four warnings issued to MarkBernstein about not commenting on other editors by four different admins before he was placed under any sanction this time around, despite having been unblocked under the explicit condition that he was to avoid personally-directed comments. Why should DHeyward and Thargor Orlando not be extended the same courtesy? -Starke Hathaway (talk) 21:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Thargor Orlando
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- My suggestion is that everyone put down the shovels, stop digging, accept the current restrictions, and edit productively in areas where you're not restricted. Furthering this situation is more likely to lead to extended blocks than it is to any sort of "ok, go do what you want" result. It is typical that DR solutions begin with less harsh restrictions; but, if that fails then more drastic restrictions will be put in place to ensure a less disruptive atmosphere on the project. If after a period of time (months, not hours) there's evidence that proper behavior can be adhered to, perhaps discuss it with an admin. active in that particular area. In other words: I suggest you take your ball and go play in another yard - before we take the ball away all together. — Ched : ? 19:37, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- question Would it help if the wording were changed from "WP:TBAN" to "WP:IBAN"? — Ched : ? 20:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- note I don't believe that Gamaliel's solution is intended to mean that DHeyward and Orlando must not interact with each other, but rather "both" must avoid MB. I've seen no indication that there are any issues with DHeyward and Orlando interactions. — Ched : ? 20:53, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
- further notes FWIW, we are into the weekend now. With that in mind, I'm not going to rush to judgement here. Several points:
- I am not inclined to unilaterally vacate the findings of another admin. (logged here)
- There seem to be a variety of views in the above thread (here}, and an even wider view in the statements above that.
- It always amazes me when people get anywhere near topics that have resulted in things like Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate after such a difficult situation has been dealt with, although it shouldn't be surprising when terms like "collateral damage" and "shrapnel" are found in the aftermath.
- I don't think that under normal operating procedures that either Thargor Orlando or DHeyward would be facing anything beyond a "suggestion", and understand the "WTH did I do" attitude. Still, given the atmosphere surrounding "all things considered" mantra - I do agree it is best if both editors were separated from all things related to MarkBernstein.
With all that said, I'll think on things over the weekend, and hopefully find helpful input from other uninvolved folks here when I get back. — Ched : ? 14:42, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
- Ched's comment pretty much hits the nail on the head. Under normal conditions, we wouldn't be thinking about sanctions like this, but nothing about gamergate has been normal thus far. Considering everything that's happened and the obvious bad blood between the parties—for which both sides bear equal responsibility—I think forcing them to keep their distance is in the best interests of the encyclopaedia, even if it's not strictly "fair" or "just". I recommend DH/TO and MB abide by the restriction even if they think it's unfair, and perhaps edit something else for a while, and if it becomes clear in a few weeks that things have settled down, we can look again. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:04, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Marcos12
Blocked 1 week for 1RR vio. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:16, 14 March 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Marcos12
Marcos12 has repeatedly violated the 1RR discretionary sanction placed on Gamergate controversy. The most recent one, involving repeatedly reverting the lead to remove the word 'some', which he objects to:
A related one slightly earlier, over how to describe or qualify the same section of the lead; in this case he did attempt rewordings, but I feel he was substantially reverting the thrust of the other person's edits (and intended to do so), especially with the first two:
And an earlier one, for which he was warned (link to warning below):
Discussion concerning Marcos12Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Marcos12Statement by (username)Result concerning Marcos12
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HistoryofIran
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning HistoryofIran
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Parishan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- HistoryofIran (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
User:HistoryofIran for a long time has been displaying an aggressive belligerent approach to editing Wikipedia articles dealing with the history of Iran and the Caucasus which has also prompted him on several occasions to edit-war, as well as resort to incivility in relation to other users.
Despite being placed on 1RR and civility supervision back in October 2013, this user continues to edit in the exact same manner that has earned him this restriction.
1RR restriction violated at Paykar Khan Igirmi Durt: [110], [111] (he claimed reverting vandalism, but later admitted on the talkpage that it was not vandalism), Atropatene: [112], [113].
Typical examples of violating WP:CIVILITY include him defining good-faith edits that he disagrees with as 'vandalism' and the contributors as 'vandals' who are out to 'annoy hard-working contributors such as [himself]': [114], [115], [116], addressing users in a disrespectfully informal manner ('dude') [117], getting extremely personal instead of addressing issues raised due to his edit-warring [118], and making other kinds of patronising, condescending and offensive remarks in edit summaries: [119], [120], [121], [122]. Interestingly, even the information supported by reliable sources such as Encyclopedia Iranica is not only removed, but referred to as 'vandalism' [123], accompanied with an inappropriate comment in the edit summary.
After being warned for incivility once [124], he persisted in making sarcastic references to the user's 'poor feelings' in every message he addressed to them for the duration of the discussion (even if the incilivity issue was not further addressed), to the point of turning it into the focal point of the entire discussion: [125], [126].
I would like admins to pay attention to the aggressive confrontational language that the user permits himself in a discussion: [127], [128], [129]. One can see that the other user did a very good job remaining civil until the end, hence HistoryofIran's reaction along the lines of phrases such as 'facepalm', 'your broken English' and 'understood?' was completely unprovoked.
In violation of WP:OWN, he refers to articles as 'his own' and uses his experience editing Wikipedia as an argument in favour of his version: [130].
I also suggest that admins take note of the manner in which this user refers to fellow contributors and to his own role in bringing about Wikipedia at the very top of his talk page: [131]. While I appreciate the efforts of those who genuinely try to contribute to improving the content of articles on Wikipedia, I do not believe that they should be blinded by glory at the site of many barnstars that other users award them and use their active participation in the project as an excuse to bring others down.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
The user was previously placed on 1RR restriction, supervised editing and civility supervision [132] and is aware of that [133].
Keeping in mind that this user has been blocked eight times in the past two years (including three times in the past year after being placed on the aforementioned restrictions, most recently a few weeks ago) for a period between 24 and 72 hours, mainly for edit-warring, and vows to continue to 'revert a lot of stuff' [134] in the future, I suggest an indefinite ban, as I consider this user's attitude unacceptable and unconstructive in improving the quality of Wikipedia articles, especially if he fails at the very first thing which makes a discussion productive: simple polite communication.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning HistoryofIran
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by HistoryofIran
I find it funny, you researched so much about me, yet you didn't research the results of what i said in articles such as the Malik-Shah page. That is called lying and which shows that you're really trying hard to have me blocked for no reason - me, a user who has contributed so much to this site (374 articles created, 35 templates created, 168 categories created, 35 portals created and manyyyyyyyy articles expanded. Not trying to use this as an excuse, but just letting you guys know), just because of.. well who knows? personal revenge/hatred? I don't know, I just find this kind of random that you're suddenly reporting me and not even doing it the right way. Anyway, about the whole Malik-Shah issue (and constantly accusing me of being heavily rude when it comes to discussing), here is what it resulted to: [136] [137]. With that "problem" hopefully fixed, let's move to the next one. "One can see that the other user did a very good job remaining civil until the end, hence HistoryofIran's reaction along the lines of phrases such as 'facepalm', 'your broken English' and 'understood?' was completely unprovoked." Seriously? if a admin is reading this, please take a look on the links and a look on the Malik-Shah article, because what I am reading is not true and I'm sure you will understand. He is making me look like the villain, which he is doing this whole report, which I will get to.
By the way, If you are going to report about such things, then show all of it instead of half of it.
About the Paykar Khan Igirmi Durt article: I find it funny, he mentioned that I claimed vandalism (which I apologized for - because I am (well, I was) constantly reverting vandalism I wrongly accused him of being one, which was completely stupid by me) yet he accused me of "bad-faith editing" and still haven't apologized for it. Isn't that double standards? Anyway, I don't get why he mentioned that, since that issue ended when he showed me sources which proved that he was right (which he didn't first time but just randomly slammed some information on it, or else I would never have reverted it in the first place). Furthermore, how is "dude" a negative word? It is a normal word used every day? (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dude) I find it funny that he is trying to make a deal out every word I use. It seems like "dude" is bad a word, but accusing one of "bad-faith editing" and abusing old issues without showing what really happened is normal. Furthermore, while we were discussing in the talk page of the article, I kept telling you to stop turning this into, well, a "personal discussion" (if that makes sense), yet you continued, which I don't know why, what have I done? I apologized (while you didn't) and agreed with what you said when you finally showed me sources in the end (which you should have done in the start).
"Interestingly, even the information supported by reliable sources such as Encyclopedia Iranica is not only removed, but referred to as 'vandalism' [138], accompanied with an inappropriate comment in the edit summary." Great, once again you're not showing everything. Yes, the source states that the Safavids were Azeris, but does not mention their ancestors were Azeris, which the user wrote on the article (which means that he was falsifying information), which was the reason I reverted it. As I said, you're not using this kind of information right and are trying to use it against my favor by doing so. I don't get what you're trying to gain: you're trying to block a user who is barely active (and may be quitting because he is busy) and has done so much on this site by falsifying (not really falsifying (or maybe it is?), but I can't really think of a better word that fits better, I should go to bed) information about him?
"Keeping in mind that this user has been blocked eight times in the past two years (including three times in the past year after being placed on the aforementioned restrictions, most recently a few weeks ago) for a period between 24 and 72 hours, mainly for edit-warring, and vows to continue to 'revert a lot of stuff' [139] in the future, I suggest an indefinite ban, as I consider this user's attitude unacceptable and unconstructive in improving the quality of Wikipedia articles, especially if he fails at the very first thing which makes a discussion productive: simple polite communication."
Yes, and you have been blocked 4 times? so what? so you should get blocked for not telling everything about the stuff which you brought up? "Simple polite communication"?, as I said before, you were the one who wanted to create a big and unnecessary issue in the Paykar Khan article, while I kept telling that we should focus on the subject, which you kept getting away from. "After being warned for incivility once [123], he persisted in making sarcastic references to the user's 'poor feelings' in every message he addressed to them for the duration of the discussion (even if the incivility issue was not further addressed), to the point of turning it into the focal point of the entire discussion: [124], [125]." Not really, as I said, I was trying to the discuss with you about the subject, yet you kept targeting words such as "dude" and kept trying to change the subject by trying to turn it into a hostile discussion, which I kept telling you that you shouldn't do and that you should focus on the subject instead. You aren't using this information neutrally, but using it all against my favor by changing what happened to make me look like the villain. About the "poor feelings" thing, as I said, you kept targeting my words and acting oversensitive yet you yourself accused me of something too, but unlike me you didn't apologize.
This is what annoys me the most: "and vows to continue to 'revert a lot of stuff"'. I didn't really say that - you're missing the details once again and are trying to change information to use it against my favor. What I said was "When I get back I will probably have to revert a lot of stuff since these annoying vandals appear on the articles i have created/expanded literally every day." What problem is there with that? It's not like i will go, in your own words, on a "bad faith editing" campaign, but remove edits such as this one removed by a well known user [140]. There are actually many respected users who agrees with me in these cases, take a look here for example [141]. Many people know that I help/expand (well, actually "helped" since I am not really active anymore) many Wikipedia articles, and not one who does "bad faith editing". Anyway, even if it said that i wanted to go on a "bad faith editing" campaign (which I would never do, of course), that wouldn't mean anything either since words means nothing compared to real action.
"and making other kinds of patronising, condescending and offensive remarks in edit summaries: [142], [143], [144],". Once again, you're not posting all of it. The first in the first link is a person who usually copies information from various places and then copies it to a article, making much of the information having broken English. The second one was just one of the 100th random users who put unsourced information, which is constantly reverted by me and other users, which annoyed me, but I guess saying "omg" (oh my god) when a article is constantly the target of vandalism is wrong, just like using the word "dude" was in your opinion somehow wrong. About the third one: He is the same person mentioned in the first link, where I said that he usually copies information from various places and then copies it to a article, making much of the information having broken English. Which is against the rules, which means I didn't do anything wrong.--HistoryofIran (talk) 01:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- [@The Blade of the Northern Lights:] I'm sorry but I really think you're missing something then, in case you didn't see it, I have answered everything he has written about and pretty much proved him wrong. "Who's of much use to the encyclopedia regardless of topic."? I have done so much for this site (which I posted above) yet I am not to any use? Can a admin properly investigate this please? --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- moved here from wrong section by Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:30, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- [@User:Rhoark:] I don't really have the energy/will to discuss about this anymore, I have written what I could, a topic ban is fine (although not the cleverest idea either when I have done so much in that kind of topic), I am not going to be editing for some months/years anyway because I have kind of lost interest in this site, but I enjoyed my time here and if I will ever return, it would be in a long time (where I would expand Football articles instead). To an admin reading (or who have read) all the information which have been written here: Although I am most likely not going to return, at least topic ban me then, but not infinitive ban, it would be sad leaving Wikipedia like that. Right now, it seems like Parishan managed to fool everyone and I feel like no one have properly investigated what I have written, but oh well. If you did what I asked, that would be great (or you could also don't do anything, but it seems like my words mean nothing compared to Parishan who is immaturely abusing information against my favor, which makes absolutely no since, oh well. Consider this the last message from me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark (uninvolved)
My gestalt impression of HistoryOfIran is someone unable to deal with content disputes in a constructive manner. Two elements of their statement however have merit. Firstly, the word "dude" is innocuous. Secondly, @Ahendra: is indeed introducing large amounts of grammatical gobbledygook to article space. An administrator should probably evaluate whether there is a competence problem. It's possible HistoryOfIran could learn better dispute resolution in an area they are less passionate about, so I endorse a topic ban. Rhoark (talk) 02:36, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning HistoryofIran
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any reason not to indef HistoryofIran and be done with it. I'd be all right with an indefinite topic ban from the AA topic area on top of that, but it seems like this isn't an editor who's of much use to the encyclopedia regardless of topic. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:26, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Supreme Deliciousness
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Supreme Deliciousness
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Cptnono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:18, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:ARBPIA - specifically the neutral point of view reminder (4)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
SupremeDeliciousness has a history of highlighting the occupation throughout Wikipedia while doing little else for the project. I understand that we need to assume good faith and that being a single purpose account is not inherently a bad thing. However, he has shown that his bias negatively affects the topic area.
The editor's clear agenda and tendency to edit war are more nuanced than usually seen at AE. I had a hard time thinking of how to "prove" this and decided to look at every 50th edit (just selected next page in the history screen) the other day. It was surprising how many were reverts. Many edits are factually accurate but I hope this shows that there might be an attempt to put undue focus on the occupation:
- Reverting (an IP) to highlight the occupation[145]
- Reverting (an IP) regarding the terminology of occupied land[146]
- Reverting to highlight the disputed status[147]
- Reverting (an IP) to highlight the disputed status [148]
- Highlighting the occupation[149]
- Reverting to highlight the disputed land[150]
- Reverting (a IP) about Israel[151]
- Highlighting the occupation. It doesn't neccasarily smack of POV pushing but it is part of the sample size[152]
- Reverting to limit the visibility of Hebrew on a food article (a surprisingly common form of POV pushing in the topic area)[153]
The above is not indicative of a problematic editor on its own. Below I attempt to show that SupremeDeliciousess has an over reliance on the revert function. It takes two to tango, of course. I also understand that it can be hard to not revert IPs in the topic area and how easy it is to assume every red named editor is a sock.
- 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers, 4 reverts since March 1 inserting "occupied". No talk page use.[154][155][156][157]
- Open University of Israel, 5 reverts since February 24 regarding a conviction. Other party later turned out to be a sock but hindsight isn't an excuse.[158][159][160][161][162]
- Northern District (Israel), 7 reverts since January 29 regarding legality of Israel's control. Again, what would eventually turn out to be a sock, but there is still a ridiculous amount of reverts with little initial conversation besides edit summaries.[163][164][165][166][167][168][169]
- Israeli cuisine, 3 reverts in 9 days in February regarding Israeli adoption of Arab cuisine. Possible sock? Talk page could have still been used more.[170][171][172]
For the sake of transparency and to show more possible POV-pushing the following is a current dispute I am involved in.
- A controversy section that I feel promotes undue weight of a minor incident at Tourism of Israel (not neccasarily a politically based page) was added. His first reaction was to revert removal. It is now tagged and being discussed.[173]
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
These issues have been going on for years and this is simply a snapshot of recent behavior. SupremeDeliciousness has always made sure not to cross the line too far, which I suppose is a good thing. My frustration leads me to want to request a topic ban but I don't know if that is even appropriate. I believe the editor needs to be counseled by a level headed admin and that a prohibition on reverts should be considered.
- I kind of expected blow back and a lengthy discussion but was really hoping it would just be cool. Yes, I have filthy disgusting hands. Yes, SD refuses to even consider that the editing has been an issue. We don't need multiple editors attacking or defending this like sharks. The gus is pushing a POV. ANI is not the appropriate venue to ask for help. Can we just get some level-headed peeps to point him in a better direction. Basically: don't comment unless you want to discuss making the topic area better.Cptnono (talk) 04:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Supreme Deliciousness
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Supreme Deliciousness
Please take a closer look at the diffs Cptnono has provided above:
- [175], The West bank is occupied so there is nothing wrong with calling it that.
- [176], an IP showed up and claimed that the Ariel University in the West bank is in Israel. I reverted this false edit..... why is this being brought up in an enforcement against me?
- [177], same as above, East Jerusalem is by the entire international community rejected as Israel, so my edit is 100% accurate.
- [178], an IP showed up and changed a sentence to "in the Israeli Golan Heights.", There is no such thing. Israeli claims are rejected by the international community. My edit is 100% accurate.
- [179], the text is about Hezbollah attacking an IDF unit. I believe it is important to point out to the reader that it happened on occupied lands and not in Israel.
- [180]. 100% accurate edit. Temple mount is not in Israel.
- [181]. An IP showed up and reverted me with the edit summary: "Reverted racist vandal Supreme Deliciousness. Supreme Deliciousness wrote anti-Semitic propaganda at User_talk:Supreme_Deliciousness/Archives/2014/October#Birthright_Unplugged claiming that Jewish history is fake." This IP was later blocked by admin.[182]. As his revert was illegitimate, I undid his revert. I also discussed at the talkpage:[183].
- [184]. The map is now changed but it used to show the Golan as striped brown. So thats why I did that edit.
- [185]. Arak is an Arabic language name. It is not a Hebrew name. Therefore the Hebrew translation is unrelated and does not belong in the lead, the same why we dont have Chinese or Russian translation for Arak. I have brought this up at the talkpage: [186]
Concerning the reverts I have done. All of them or the vast majority of them are me reverting disruption by the sockupuppet "I invented "it's not you, it's me", who is a sock of NoCal100.:
[187], Or me reverting other IPs and newly registered accounts (likely other socks), who show up to revert me without any discussion at all. Its hard to edit in this kind of environment. At Open University of Israel, Northern District (Israel) (both articles where the sock was reverting me) and Israeli cuisine I also participated at the talkpages.[188], [189], [190].
I would also like to point out that Cptnono comes here with unclean hands, take a look at this:[191] Cptnono make a revert with the edit summary: "Since SD did not answer my reasoning and then another editor made m point for me I am reverting. I likely would not have reverted if it didn't turn into an edit war. I want to play too"
--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:43, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Greyshark09
The problem with Supreme Deliciousness is that it is a single topic account: Supreme's only interest is ARBPIA topics (and to a lesser degree SCWGS) - most notably the status of various borders and territories disputed by Syria and Palestine with Israel. His emotional attachment to the topic forces him to go to extremes in his "righteous" fight against the other opinion... which is the typical danger sign of Wikipedia:Wikipediholic. This might have not been a problem in some cases, but Supreme has repeatedly caused mayhem in English Wikipedia and in Commons, being blocked on Commons and on English wiki and warned every now and then. There might be a serious problem of accepting community consensus and NPOV concepts by Supreme, as I can recall two cases of problematic edit-warring on his behalf - one on Quneitra Governorate article, aiming to enforce an opinion in contrary to the community consensus, and another on Syrian Civil War maps - as well blatantly going against the consensus a number of times (later fixed at this discussion).GreyShark (dibra) 21:24, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- What community consensus and NPOV concepts have I not accepted? I never violated this consensus that was closed by an admin:[192]. And the last link you linked to is not a consensus, it was a heavily involved editor who was editing articles according to the same pov as you who closed the discussion. So his "closure" is not a real closure and his claims of a "consensus" is a joke. Any uninvolved editor who reads the discussion can clearly see that his "closure" comments is not the real outcome of the discussion. I was just made aware of this actually and I have left a new message at the talkpage:[193]--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- Update: Just a couple of minutes after I posted at the ISIL talkpage that the discussion closure by heavily involved user:Legacypac was inaccurate, another user agreed with me: [194], (Please read his comment). This is the so called "community consensus" that "I have not accepted" according to Greyshark. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by IRISZOOM
There is a big problem when it comes to Israeli-occupied territories as some wants to put it "in Israel", though the world rejects that view (even Israel too when it comes to the West Bank excluding East Jerusalem) and view it as occupied. There is a clear consensus on this, also reflected on Wikipedia, and it's only good to remove such NPOV violations. As the world think the Palestinian territories and the Golan Heights are occupied territories, saying they are "Israeli" or "in Israel" is unacceptable. I myself, and many other editors in this area, often have to remove such things, and this can't be seen as something negative.
Regarding Greyshark09's point about the Golan Heights issue, it was actually only the RFC at Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant/Archive 26 (started in December 2014 and closed in January 2015) which solved the issue if the Golan Heights should be mentioned. As can be seen at Talk:Syrian Civil War/Israel#Adding Israel as belligerent on Syrian Civil War maps, a new discussion was started there in August 2014 because it wasn't clear on how to resolve the issue as it, contrary to the claim, hadn't been solved. I can recall Greyshark09 himself making changes to that same issue on his own, such as changing to "Disputed areas" here (in fact, it takes the Israeli view that the areas are only disputed and not occupied, while there later was a consensus to not mention the area at all), though there were no consensus for that. So I think Greyshark09 should be cautious to criticize Supreme Deliciousness on this issue. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- Actually the discussion closed in January 2015 did not solve anything. Please see my posts above. It was a heavily involved editor (user:Legacypac) who closed the discussion, and he closed it according to a false "consensus" that anyone who reads the discussion can clearly see does not exist. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 02:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
(involved administrator) I did not review all of the diffs provided here, but I looked at many of them and it is clear what is going on. The Israel-Palestine part of Wikipedia is under continuous assault by people (usually IPs or SPAs) who just want to insert their political positions. Common themes are to insert "in Israel" into articles about places not in Israel (including places that Israel does not claim to be in Israel), to remove mention of the military occupation, or to gratuitously remove the word "Palestine". Every day there are multiple such edits, and the people who do it obviously know exactly what they are doing. The principles have been discussed countless times in talk pages and project pages and anyone who wants to reopen the discussion is able to do so. Meanwhile, one of the boring daily chores required for article maintenance is to sweep away the dross that appeared overnight. It is certain not beholden on good editors to start a new discussion every time someone comes past and makes the same old unacceptable edits over again. Zerotalk 01:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark (uninvolved)
Edits related to the control or status of territories are a recurring theme, but Deliciousness' versions seem to be those with better sourcing or specificity, not reflective of a pattern of POV pushing. Being a SPA is not a problem; someone has to do the work. I'd semiprotect the whole topic area. Rhoark (talk) 02:58, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by AcidSnow (uninvolved)
I have yet to see Deliciousness do anything wrong. AcidSnow (talk) 04:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Result concerning Supreme Deliciousness
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
MarkBernstein (2)
Request concerning MarkBernstein
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Starke Hathaway (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:52, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- MarkBernstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate (discretionary sanctions):
Dreadstar: [195] "Due to your continued comments about other editors [196], I'm imposing upon you a 90-day ban on all edits about, and all pages related to, (a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate."
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 15 March MarkBernstein links to an article on his personal blog. The article contains discussion of gamergate. His comment regarding "Sea Lions of Wikipedia" also refers to the gamergate controversy.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 3 Jan Block for prior violation
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- It seems clear by now that this editor has no intention of abiding by this topic ban. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 22:53, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- It's not at all clear to me why MarkBernstein expects to be given latitude to violate his topic ban on a talk page when DungeonSiegeAddict510 (who is subject to the same topic ban as MarkBernstein) was blocked for a month for little more than writing the letters "kia" on a talk page. It's not as though MarkBernstein would be unaware of this as he commented in support of that very enforcement action. I would also respectfully suggest to MarkBernstein that the "hounding" will stop when he stops violating his topic ban.
- I am very aware that I face the possibility of retaliatory sanctions for bringing this action, especially in light of the difference in the level of scrutiny applied to editors who bring actions here depending on whether they seem to fall on one side or the other of a particular controversy-- compare the treatment of EncyclopediaBob, who was indefinitely blocked for being a sock after bringing an enforcement action against NorthBySouthBaranof despite no one at any point adducing evidence of such, with the absolute lack of any scrutiny of PetertheFourth, a self-admitted SPA, when he brought the aforementioned enforcement action against DungeonSiegeAddict510. It is becoming increasingly evident that the rules are not being applied evenly to those who are perceived to be pro- or anti-gamergate, but I'll risk not being able to edit any longer on the possibility that this isn't in fact true. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 00:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [197]
Discussion concerning MarkBernstein
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by MarkBernstein
An editor left a pointer on my talk page to a satirical piece he had written read, concerning this very page.I complimented him and pointed him to something I'd written on the same topic. It’s an essentially social interactionm and considerable latitude is allowed and necessary on talk pages.
The topic of my piece, incidentally, is not Gamergate, but Wikipedia's Arbitration Committee and it's recent ruling on my own Arbitration Committee Request for Clarification. I think it not unreasonable that PeterTheFourth, who has been editing Wikipedia since December, would assume that he might mention my own ARCA request on my talk page. Why not, if it's a topic of mutual interest, and where else shall he mention it? Of course, Starke Hathaway knows better from his vast experience of editing Wikipedia since...December. But Starke has one advantage: his first Wikipedia edit outside his own talk page was a statement for ArbCom.
Ought I to have replied to PeterTheFourth by email? Perhaps. But Wikipedia policy encourages discussion of Wikipedia editing on wiki, and generally discourages such discussion off-wiki. Besides, we don’t all have 4chan, 8chan, KotakuInAction, and WikiInAction to use for our discussions!
Wikipedians might also give some thought to how this unremittingly vindictive hounding looks out there, out in the real world. So, please take your time with the WP:BOOMerang here, because it'll reinforce my argument so effectively.
Have I been critical of ArbCom and of Wikipedia? Yes, I surely have. Have I laughed at Wikipedia's follies? Sure: someone has to! And once you see how funny this is, Starke is quite correct: it’s hard to stop. Still, WP:MOMHESLOOKINGATMEFUNNY is not a thing.@PeterTheFourth: MarkBernstein (talk) 23:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- @EvergreenFir: I believe Wikipedia links are nofollow to deter spamming, so they're hard to see in my logs. And, if traffic statistics for my Wikipedia talk page itself is available to me, I have no idea how to find it. But, seriously, Wikipedia traffic is inconsequential at this point. This little satire has already been retweeted by 34 writers; they have among them 209,000 followers. We've had plenty of people dropping by from Facebook. I've got my little regular audience, which has its own sort of influence. And this is for a little light Sunday satire. I don't care about Wikipedia traffic. It's called making a point. There’s another name for what it’s called: “winning.” Give it a rest. I have explained why I link: unlike Gamergate, I don’t whisper about my opponents behind their back, I don’t pretend to believe they're gay or practitioners of strange sex rituals, I don't call them prostitutes or send them pictures of dead dogs or of their dead sisters. If I have something to say about you, I'll say it to your face and I'll show you the link, and I'll accept your rebukes. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @TheRedPenOfDoom: I’m sorry to disagree with you here, but you're mistaken in calling the calling the decision “insipid.” Give ArbCom credit: the clarification was not bland, and adding Lena Dunham was about as spicy as you can ask. You couldn't make this stuff up. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Rhoark: I agree with the general sentiment, but you're wrong in detail. I cannot be a valuable contributor, in light of an inexplicable and absurd topic ban which extends as far as the eye can see -- to every living woman (except maybe to right-wing extremists), to every gay, lesbian, and gender-queer person, and to every topic the tea party declares to be a controversy and which somehow impinges gender, which is to say the human condition, broadly construed. But, in point of fact, I'd wager that my writing of the past eight weeks will do more to shape the Encyclopedia than my work of the previous two decades, broadly construed -- and that work arguably includes those tabs at the top of this page and the breadcrumbs that guide you to its antecedents. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Gamaliel: Wise, prudent, and judicious. I do think, though, that encouraging off-site coordination is still disparaged by policy, that in theory (if not in the real world into which I am accused of having injected myself upstream on the page) we're encouraged to discuss Wikipedia here and openly, not elsewhere and in secret. Correct me if I'm mistaken -- and also correct the guidance we give to new editors, some of whom might (on rare occasions like this) actually be genuine new editors. Grizzled experts like NBSF and myself find these matters puzzling, while outsiders look on aghast and wonder what Wikipedia can possibly be thinking. In fact, I'm pretty sure the banned veteran editors who don’t find the margins of discretionary sanctions puzzling fall into two categories: (a) those who are now editing through new accounts, borrowed accounts, or sock puppets, and (b) those who have retired completely. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
@Bosstopher: I’m not willing today to ask for the favor of having what should be mine by right, or to beg this audience to do what they ought to do despite unreasonable and unreasoning malice. But do feel free to ask on my behalf if you like. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
@Coldacid: et al: The satire to which PeterTheFourth directed my attention is, of course, an allegorical parable of sea lions with a beachball. My mother told me that when someone gives you something to read, it's polite to thank them and to remark on its content, showing that you read it and appreciated it. Your mother may have disagreed, but Wikipedia welcomes people from different cultures and backgrounds. Or it used to. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Gamaliel: Ah yes, topic bans. That would be
- The indefensible topic ban for Gamergate imposed by that witty fellow who, in doing so, so far forgot himself as to call me a motherfucker?
- Or would that be its new extension to Campus Rape, Lena Dunham, and points East?
- Or perhaps the bankshot extension newly proposed here, which topic-bans reference to off-wiki satires of Wikipedia decisions on gender that were inspired by Wikipedia's foolish handling of Gamergate?
- Or perhaps the topic ban should apply to my referring to anyone who writes about my writing that ridicules Wikipedia decisions on gender which were inspired (and I use the term loosely) by Wikipedia’s craven appeasement of Gamergate?
- Perhaps I should not use links? Does the topic ban also include semi-colons? One of my better-known soundbites holds that “The link is the most significant new form of punctuation since the invention of the comma,” after all. I know it's unfair, my having a place to write and an audience and a modest facility with words other than motherfucker and brony; perhaps I should be required to write especially badly to even the playing field? Or to pretend never to have heard of Donna Haraway or Michel Foucault or Judith Butler.
- @Gamaliel: Ah yes, topic bans. That would be
- Now if you want to take some pictures of the fascinating witches who put the scintilating stiches in the britches of the boys who put the powder on the noses on the faces of the ladies of the harem of the court of King Caractacus (or Wikipedia’s credibility)...
- ... You're too late! Because they've just... Passed... By!
- The complaint seeks simply to wield the topic ban in an unending quest to reclaim a failed plan to use Wikipedia as part of another failed PR offensive. No harm or disruption could have been caused by briefly alluding to this satire on my talk page, and in any case no one can possibly know where the ban ends. This complaint lacks the semblance of good faith.
- Or perhaps we're talking about a different topic ban entirely? I seem to recall a very recent topic ban on this very subject. I myself have not brought a complaint since then against either
XxxxxBatman orXxxx XxxxRobin. But here we are already, back again in our old familiar haunts, brought not by Batman nor by Robin (because that would be wrong!), but – what a coincidence! – by one of The Merry Men, with the usual crew alongside to tell us everything we need to know about sea lions. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Or perhaps we're talking about a different topic ban entirely? I seem to recall a very recent topic ban on this very subject. I myself have not brought a complaint since then against either
- @Squiggleslash: You are welcome to file one on my behalf. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @HJMitchell: I did not refer to any editor; I was topic-banned, apparently, for alluding indirectly to the well-known fact of collusive editing, which was the topic of the article under discussion. Here, I only violated my topic ban if the broad construction of GamerGate extends to mentioning my own satirical jeremiads against Wikipedia's recent turn to embrace anti-intellectualism and sexism. Unlike some of your correspondents, I am indeed engaged with the real world, and my interest here is to (a) save the project from mistakes which are -- correctly in my opinion -- bringing it into widespread contempt, or (b) if that is impossible, to warn scholars and writers of systemic biases and distortions in order to minimize the harm it does, especially when used as a weapon by wrong-doers. Yes, I could be (and have been) of great service to Wikipedia: when you look back on this, you will find that my contribution to Gamergate may in fact have been crucial to preventing irremediable harm to the project. I think there is no question that the real world, having examined the question, shares my opinion. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Masem: I’m responsible for what I write on my weblog, and for what I publish in journals and magazines. I’m not responsible for satire that someone else writes on their weblog, even if PeterTheFourth tells me about it. I'm not disparaging you at the moment; it appears that some other people are, but like the flowers that bloom in the spring (tra-la!) that has nothing to do with the case. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:17, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Johnuniq
My suggestion would be that Starke Hathaway (150 edits; half on Gamergate) focus on improving the encyclopedia rather than examining every comment at MarkBernstein's talk. Such activity is not healthy for the project. Johnuniq (talk) 00:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by PeterTheFourth
I do not at all understand how the reply to my (unsolicited, entirely spontaneous) comment is a violation of anything, especially given that he hasn't even mentioned Gamergate in his reply. This is honestly just more evidence of the ongoing harassment of MarkBernstein. I feel atrocious in my unintentional involvement in the ongoing campaign to drive away a well-spoken, prolific editor whose contributions have greatly enriched Wikipedia. PeterTheFourth (talk) 00:47, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- As a completely unrelated aside: I did not author the piece I linked, although I do endorse it. PeterTheFourth (talk) 01:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Bosstopher
Agree with Gamaliel that minor borderline banvios like this one, YellowSandal's and DSA's, are not worth banning anyone over. All this request will do is cause more drama. Is there some way we can set a 1RResque limit to things of one AE request against Mark a week? There are approximately 10 billion admins watching his talk page, so if he does anything too horrific after the week's AE request is done, one of them can just sort it out without an enforcement request. Currently a huge proportion of this enforcement page is Mark-related, and all it's done is create layer upon layer of pointless drama. Bosstopher (talk) 01:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Upon thinking about things in a much less sleep deprived state, I have come up with an ingenious solution that will satisfy everyone (although it probably wont). Per User:EvergreenFir's comments, Mark should be topic banned from linking to his blog/external links. @MarkBernstein: While Dreadstar's not going to remove your topic ban, have you considered asking him to change it so that it's just a straight up Gamergate topic ban like the ones they used in the good old days? That would solve a lot of the issues you're facing with being confused over what you're actually allowed to edit. Bosstopher (talk) 14:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark
I think it would be great if MB would go back to being the valuable contributor of a few years ago instead of a SPA in the area of grousing about ARBCOM, but this filing is a waste of everyone's time. Rhoark (talk) 01:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EvergreenFir
I am getting a bit weary of seeing Mark's name here. This isn't a huge violation, but Mark knows full well the terms of his tban and continues to link to his blog anyway. If this doesn't result in a block, this should be a final warning. Mark needs to stop linking his blog (generating traffic and views) and needs to stop all references to GG. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:41, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- MarkBerstein says,
"I don't care about Wikipedia traffic. It's called making a point. There’s another name for what it’s called: “winning.” Give it a rest. I have explained why I link..."
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Mark knows exactly what he's doing, that it violates his topic ban, that he's making a WP:POINT, and doesn't care. There is no good faith to assume here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 11:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by TheRedPenOfDoom
Simply more evidence of the ArbCom's disastrous miscalculation that their insipid decision was something that would in any way limit disruption of Wikipedia rather than provide a blueprint for sustained organized disruption.
Gamergate Ahoy! Keep them socks coming! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Do we need to open another ARCA to see if by "broadly construed" ArbCom merely meant all Pinnipeds, or if they are inclined to include all ocean bound mammals? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Strongjam
Can we speedily close this and just get on with working on the encyclopedia? The linked to diff isn't worth this much drama. Starke Hathaway is simply mistaken in their believe that DSA510 was held to a higher standard. He obliquely violated his topic ban here, more directly here, and I think by accident here. None of that was deemed disruptive enough and nobody bothered to file an AE request. If Starke Hathaway thinks MarkBernstein is being held to a lower standard they are simply mistaken. Strongjam (talk) 02:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Gamaliel: With regards to DHeyward this is what you're looking for. — Strongjam (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Masem: To be clear, are you talking about the link that MarkBernstein posted, or the link that was posted on his talk page? — Strongjam (talk) 20:10, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Masem: Thanks for the clarification. In that case I think PeterTheFourth should be trouted. Links that contain personal attacks on editors are not appropriate for linking to on WP. — Strongjam (talk) 20:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Starship.paint
Is anyone reading what @EvergreenFir: has written?
There are two scenarios here. Either posting a link to his personal blog about GamerGate violates the topic ban, or it does not. Could we make it explicitly clear? If it violates the topic ban, at the very minimum MarkBernstein should be given a final warning, if not harsher punishment. There is another AE request up above, now closed, regarding MarkBernstein posting a link to his blog. He should clearly know better. If it does not violate the topic ban, let's just inform MarkBernstein so he can continue posting such links as and when or wherever he likes.
And has MarkBernstein's Sea Lions of Wikipedia comment escaped scrutiny as well, even if linking his blog post is permissible? Sea Lions are clearly a reference to GamerGate. MarkBernstein has already said he's winning. That's because we are letting him get away with it. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 13:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by coldacid
@Starship.paint: I think without further clarification, Mark Bernstein should be free to link his own blog on his user or user talk pages, but without reference to areas for which he is under an active topic ban. Simply linking his posts, fine. Commentary like "sea lions of Wikipedia" (a clear reference to GamerGate), not fine.
In addition, as EvergreenFir points out, this behaviour from Bernstein is getting needlessly WP:POINTy by now. Yes, there are other editors gunning for him, but the disruption wouldn't be nearly as bad if he didn't keep tiptoeing the line in front of them, and pouring fuel on the flames of this drama. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 14:58, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Masem
Noting that the link put on Mark's page by Peter includes things that call me out as an editor directly (and incorrectly as well, I do not side with GG so calling me a sea lion is flat out wrong), I would have just considered Mark's reply simply needed a trout, a slip of the mind that would have gone through the cracks if people were not hounding him.
But the replies to this complaint show something more. I highlight this part of Gamaleil's statement below: If your aim is to edit an encyclopedia, you are welcome here. If your aim to be the Gamergate police cracking down on the SJWs, you are not. This needs to also work in the other direction - If one's aim here is to criticize and condemn GG, and fight to protect victims of GG (beyond what BLP requires us to do), that's the same problem that should not be welcomed on WP. And Mark's attitude here falls right into line with this. We're back at the neutrality issue that started the ArbCom case, that editors are too involved ideologically or emotionally that they are not editing in the expected behavior for a neutral, impartial encyclopedia, creating the battleground mentality that started the case. This idea works both ways (pro and anti-GG) - it's just easier to deal with the side that comes from pro-GG because they are the new/SPA accounts that have easier behavior to call out.
Again, I don't think this specific instance needs anything more than a warning to Mark (as well as others). But we need ArbCom to be clear that Wikipedia should not be considered a part of the larger GG battleground for either side, and that editors using WP to engage in that should be considered disruptive. --MASEM (t) 16:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Gamaliel: One post at the site is titled "Sea Lion Emeritus Masem is Not Animatronic. We Swear!" and goes to mock my discussion contributions. Now, being fully aware that Poe's law could be in play and we could be talking about a parody site, I'm also fully aware of the language that proponents on both sides of the issue write, and this is far from just being parody. --MASEM (t) 20:06, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Strongjam: That's from the link Peter posted to Mark's page. Not sure if that's the link Gamaliel was specifically talking about in that request. --MASEM (t) 20:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @MarkBernstein: I don't doubt that that you have no hand involved in the link Peter gave, I read it that Gamaliel was looking for disparaging comments from that site (and if not, then we should be aware what type of commentary is at that cite). It was not my intention to claim that you wrote on that specific site, if that's how it came out which I apologize if that did. --MASEM (t) 20:31, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by DHeyward
With permission from uninvolved adminstrator, I only note that MarkBernstein uses a term of disparagement that was used with respect to Orlando Thargor and me. MarkBernstein has falsely accused me of offsite collusion and refuses to disclose his link (because it's false, I presume) but freely links and makes on-wiki comments on external sites that disparage other editors in violation of both his 90 day GamerGate topic ban and his indefinite interaction ban. My only request has been that he stop. Nothing tried so far seems to work. --DHeyward (talk) 16:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Gamaliel Starship.paint addressed it above. I don't know exactly what a "sea lions of wikipedia" is but I've read the link, read how I was mentioned and I've read MarkBernstein's comment and that term is disparaging. Why he thinks it would be appropriate to use that term on Wikipedia to refer to editors is beyond me[198]. And yes, it's a silly talk page comment. I'm sure everyone has made worse. But not by someone with same reputation, block, tban, iban, warnings and board discussions as MarkBernstein. And I'd prefer that if you are going to sanction or not, that you leave it as a recommendation. --DHeyward (talk) 20:10, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by squiggleslash
You're going to keep getting these reports about every minor infraction MB may have committed as long as you make it clear there's a chance you'll act against him, and little chance those promoting the conflict will get sanctioned. And I say "You're going to keep getting" because you already are. The current gender controversies topic ban is itself an example.
- Repeal topic ban. It was never justified. (MB, maybe it'd help if you filed a formal appeal against it, or did you and I missed it?)
- Add Starke Hathaway to the TIBAN (is that a term?) that already applies between MB, Thargor Orlando, and DHeywood.
You can continue to do what you're doing, but it isn't working. You can do what the hoards of offsite trolls are trying to get you to do, but that's happened once already, Arbcom did what they wanted them to do, and, well, here we are. Not that anyone that's part of the Wikipedia establishment will ever admit it might, possibly, have been just a slight possible misjudgment, to sanction people trying to protect Wikipedia from trolls for edit warring. --Squiggleslash (talk) 16:40, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning MarkBernstein
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Topic bans are supposed to prevent disruption, not create drama through hyperscrutiny and a resulting flood of complaints. Let me give you an example: Two days ago, YellowSandals violated his topic ban here. None of you editors constantly complaining about MarkBernstein made a peep about it, and obviously some of you saw it. I ignored it just like you did, and that's what you should also do here. (For the record, I felt the same about DungeonSiegeAddict510 and advised only a trouting in that case.) If your aim is to edit an encyclopedia, you are welcome here. If your aim to be the Gamergate police cracking down on the SJWs, you are not. Mark Bernstein is officially trouted - if there is such a thing - and advised to keep such chats off wiki whenever possible. Gamaliel (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @MarkBernstein: "Policy says, discuss Wikipedia on Wikipedia unless there's a pressing, exceptional situation that makes discussion impossible." That exceptional situation would be your topic ban. Gamaliel (talk) 04:38, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @MarkBernstein: If you object to the topic ban, you are welcome to appeal it in the appropriate forum. This is not the appropriate forum, but you are welcome to open another request challenging the topic ban on this page. Regardless of whatever grievance you may have, you are not free to violate the topic ban. I hope that is clear. Gamaliel (talk) 16:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- For the record, since the comment left by YellowSandals appeared to be a direct personal attack aimed at me - I chose to ignore it. Yes I saw it, but if I had blocked for that it would have given the perception of being retaliatory in nature. I'm not able to review the other things properly to add any more beyond that. — Ched : ? 15:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Huh. I thought he was talking about me and didn't block for the same reason. That's almost hilarious. Gamaliel (talk) 16:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
@DHeyward: Could you identify the admin? Thanks. Gamaliel (talk) 17:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- @DHeyward: Strongjam addressed the above question. I've read the link. Can you identify the disparaging comments? I feel like I'm missing something here. Gamaliel (talk) 18:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- At some point, this all has to end. How many enforcement requests are we up to against Mark? How many warnings has he had? How many times has he been asked nicely to stop commenting on his opponents and comment on content instead? Probably more than any other editor in this topic area. This is the second time he's been topic-banned, and not the first time he's violated a topic ban. Yes, he is probably under more scrutiny than most editors in the topic area (though, while I don't condone one group of editors training their sights on another editor, it is MB's own actions that have led to that scrutiny), but at some point the question has to be: does the problem lie with a small army of editors filing enforcement requests (and even with admins issuing warnings and sanctions), or with a single editor who doesn't seem to want to heed advice, warnings, sanctions, or anything else? At this point, I think Mark has been extended all the rope that is reasonable and more, but has carried on regardless. I can't see how this is any different to the situation with the last topic ban (which was later lifted, although Mark was twice blocked and repeatedly warned for violating it), or to DSA510 (who similarly showed no inclination to separate himself from the topic area). What irks me most is that these editors aren't making good edits in the mainspace that are being met with frivolous enforcement requests, but politicking on talk pages and in the projectspace. I think Mark has the potential to be an incredibly valuable contributor (I think the same of DSA and several other 'problem editors' in the topic area), but his continued participation with regards to gamergate is not conducive to progress, and he has shown no inclination to change the way he participates. Given all of that, I recommend a one-month block, as with DSA510. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:52, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- If there actually are disparaging comments at this link I support this action. As for the rest, there is plenty of blame to go around here, which is what makes this conflict so intractable. Both sides are holding themselves blameless while incessantly complaining about the other side. Gamaliel (talk) 18:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Topic Ban Appeal: MarkBernstein
On Friday, March 6, Think Progress published an article by Lauren C. Williams describing how The ‘Five Horsemen’ Of Wikipedia Paid The Price For Getting Between Trolls And Their Victims.
For months, [Talk:Gamergate_controversy] has offered a boxed section of articles in the media that discuss the Gamergate page. As this was a long investigative report on that very page, I proposed adding the new article that list. As I anticipated, GamerGate supporters teamed up to revert the change. Discussion followed on the talk page, as discussions do.
Two days later, I was topic-banned by @Dreadstar: under the standard AE sanctions. [199]
The pertinent passage appears to be the following:
- “It is fascinating that the particular group of editors who recently were so eager to cite Gamergate wikis, weblogs, and Breitbart are reluctant to inform newcomers to this article of this important new essay. Why would that be? There is no question that Lauren Williams’ study is the best examination of the Wikipedia scandal to appear to date. It is also very widely read. The Twitter stream for "Gamergate Wikipedia" is filled with references, it’s got 1700 Facebook shares, it’s generated secondary coverage in Slate [11].”
I had been asked not to criticize other editors on talk pages, but here I do not criticize or mention any editor: I allude to a pattern of collusive editing. Collusive editing is the subject of the article under discussion; it is natural and necesssary to discuss it in this context. The italicized question might be taken to allude to the insistent, relentless, perfervid POV pushing practiced by a coterie of editors on this page, abetted by a constantly-refreshed stream of socks and zombies working with expert admin assistance and supervision, in blatant and unchecked violation of WP:NPOV and WP:FLAT. Discussion of the application of policy to article and front-matter changes is not uncommon on talk pages.
Moreover, my assertion above is inarguably true, it is reliably sourced, and it reflects the overwhelming consensus of opinion of outside observers of Wikipedia’s Gamergate article: [200].
I responded to the topic ban with wry astonishment, and with a query regarding its intended extent.
Shortly afterward, Dreadstar responded by email:
- This looks like a threat to me, you'll be lucky if I don't indef block your account.
I do not recall that I made any reply. A few minutes later, he wrote again:
- Oh you motherfucker, you DARE ACCUSE ME of condoning RAPE?
You'd best retract, NOW.
A few minutes later:
- It's about to get really ugly; accusing me of condoning rape....well, now that gets personal....
The topic ban is neither expedient nor appropriate; it is the reverse. It does not improve the encyclopedia; it makes it worse. It does not advance the project; it invites additional derision and ridicule at a moment when -- let’s face it -- Wikipedia needs all the friends it can find, and among whom I might perhaps, once again, number myself. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- I submit this very reluctantly, with scant hope of a sympathetic reception or a fair hearing, after others urged me to do so. It’s doubtless in the wrong form or the wrong template; I can’t for the life of me figure that out; feel free to apply necessary mops to make it right. I may monitor the discussion that follows but do not promise to do so; if you wish any information or comment from me, please feel free to contact me at my office or by email. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
And the first of the troupe arrives. Does Starke Hathway comment on what I wrote? They do not. Do they comment on content? Nope. Instead, they disparage me personally, impugn my motives, and claim that I speculate about the motives of other editors when, in point of fact, I did not: I speculated that motives might exist. How much of this garbage do the admins intend to tolerate? (My guess: as much as can be mustered from every slop pail they can find, but we’ll see.) MarkBernstein (talk) 20:25, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Starke Hathaway
I don't see any issue here that should invalidate the TBAN. When an editor has been warned at least four times not to make comments about other editors on article talk pages, that editor shouldn't anticipate good things coming from the decision to post a comment speculating about the motives of a "particular group of editors" on an article talk page. Frankly anyone other than MarkBernstein would have been TBANNed and blocked (likely indefinitely) long before reaching this point, if admin action in this topic area is any indication.
For what it's worth, MarkBernstein, I'm sorry Dreadstar called you a motherfucker. He shouldn't have done that, and I hope he apologized (did he?) -Starke Hathaway (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark
While MarkBernstein, writing to us from the top of the Reichstag, continues to flog his link and assume bad faith on everyone else in the topic area, I'd like to encourage everyone to consider the totality of his behavior, not just his interactions with Dreadstar. Rhoark (talk) 20:38, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by squiggleslash
The topic ban was an over-reaction to something that if it was a violation of any rule, was clearly an ultra minor one. What purpose is it supposed to serve beyond intimidating someone with views unpopular amongst those pushing the ban (and the two subsequent follow-on attempts to sanction him)? What editor read a reference to a self defining group, in the context of a discussion about the principles behind accepting or rejecting sources, and said "Why, that fellow is obviously attacking me! I shall immediately post an angry unwikipedian response even if this means the once polite, friendly, and constructive discussions of Gamergate here are forever tainted!"
It's absurd. It's even more absurd this has gone on for a week and nobody with power has fixed it. --Squiggleslash (talk) 20:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning MarkBernstein
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.