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    MisterWiki. Again.

    User:MisterWiki has not learned. He was indeffed for acting inappropriately, and then unblocked on the provision that he would get his game together and stop treating WP like a place to have fun (among other things, such as, y'know, not socking). this and, to a lesser extent, this FPC shows that he's not taking it seriously. Comments? Ironholds (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Hehe, is this a joke or what? --MW talk contribs 17:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    You, be quiet before you get yourself into more trouble!! </mom rant>
    Ironholds, isn't Wikipedia supposed to be fun? OK, the kitteh piccy isn't of the greatest, but two articles are using it. Why shouldn't he nom it? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Elen: and redirecting piss-on-elmo? Ironholds (talk) 17:42, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Because he knew perfectly well it didn't meet the criteria and that it would fail. And that's plain disruption. ╟─TreasuryTag►Lord Speaker─╢ 17:41, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I would be interested to hear MisterWiki's explanation of how this is non-disruptive activity, and the same for this – ╟─TreasuryTag►stannary parliament─╢ 17:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    FYI I have fulfilled a db-g7 request for Piss-on-elmo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) which consisted of #REDIRECT[[Pichilemu]] and had only one author (User:MisterWiki). –xenotalk 17:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I would be interested to hear how a poorly thought out featured article nomination is a WP:POINT violation, or more specifically, what point he was attempting to prove in a disruptive fashion. Shereth 17:42, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) OK, I'll tell you. It is very, very, very obvious, to even the meanest of intellects, and definitely to someone of MisterWiki's considerable intelligence, that the picture in question did not meet the criteria, particularly #1, probably #3, definitely #5 and #7. And nominating an image which so blatantly doesn't satisfy the required standard is, in my opinion, disruptive – particularly given this editor's standing in the community at the moment. ╟─TreasuryTag►voice vote─╢ 17:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:POINT is a specific kind of disruption. If you want to claim his nomination was disruptive because he knew it would fail anyway, then call it disruptive, but it is not a WP:POINT violation. Shereth 17:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I'm sorry. I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused by my labelling MisterWiki (talk · contribs) as a WP:POINT violator over the FPC nomination, when he is, in fact, a WP:Disruptive editing violator. I shall strive never to make a similar mistake again. ╟─TreasuryTag►draftsman─╢ 17:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Eh, you're taking it the wrong way, but I'm not going to press the point further. Shereth 18:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd give MisterWiki a pass on the featured picture nomination, he was even encouraged by a couple of established editors there. But the Piss-on-elmo... although he requested its deletion himself afterward, I don't think creating joke articles in the mainspace is ever a good idea. I don't think this is enough to reconsider a block, but it's not a good sign either. -- Atama頭 17:45, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Not that they count for much, but in an IRC discussion in which an admin repeatedly tried to impress on MisterWiki the silliness of FP noms like that, he repeatedly laughed and tried to justify himself with an argumentum ad lolcat, as it were. Ironholds (talk) 17:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    More lulz would've been had if the cat had a "I Can Has FPC?" caption. Tarc (talk) 17:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    MisterWiki, in spite of his apparent technical intelligence, displays a continual lack of fundamental understanding of what this project is for. Whether his apparent inability to stop treating Wikipedia like a fun joke is willful or not, is not a question for me to answer. Whether his toying around and his games are severe enough to warrant further action, I am not sure. He does contribute positively, and I'm not fully convinced that his disruptions are so egregious as to warrant a reinstatement of his block, but it is a fact that he's had his "second chance" and is running dangerously close to exhausting the patience of the community; the fact that he removed the notification of this report on his talk page, dismissing this ANI thread as a "joke" is worrisome at best. Shereth 18:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    To be fair, removing the {{ANI-notice}} isn't wrong at all, its only purpose is to notify, and once that's been done, there's no real reason to keep it. This is one of the more legitimate things that MisterWiki seems to have done! (Also, I'm not sure that "inability" can be "willful"...) ╟─TreasuryTag►senator─╢ 18:03, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It wasn't his removal of the notice but the associated edit summary ( rm; that ani thread is a joke ) that worries me with regards to how seriously he approaches things at Wikipedia - more as a joke and a game. I don't want to be all "I R SRS ADMIN" and I enjoy a bit of lighthearted humor from time to time but if this thread is not something he can take seriously ... Shereth 18:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, hadn't noticed the edit-summary, fair enough, point taken! ╟─TreasuryTag►ballotbox─╢ 18:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I for one am growing rather tired of these games, and wouldn't object to reinstating the block. –Juliancolton | Talk 18:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, Piss-on-elmo was obviously a fail, I didn't had a dictionary near me and I didn't knew what does it meant (I will not give the name of the person that gave me the idea). Obviously, there are more bizarre redirections than this one. Also, I hadn't read the FI criteria before nominating the kitty image. All of this is not the motive of an Ani thread, this should had been resolved by posting it on the talk page, but a user just wants me blocked (again, I will not name him). --MW talk contribs 18:07, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I mentioned it as a joke on IRC (we were discussing pichelmu (sp), which I can never spell, and I jokingly called it piss-on-elmo); the idea that a joke invites you to create a redirect is ludicrous. And you need a dictionary to understand what the word "piss" means? Ironholds (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I thought that "piss" meant to step. In Spanish means "pisar", I thought it was a cognate word. --MW talk contribs 18:14, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Bullshit. Tan | 39 18:15, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    For once, I have to agree with the previous speaker, if MisterWiki is competent to use English phrases such as "cognate word" then he knows what piss means. ╟─TreasuryTag►consulate─╢ 18:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Besides, "stepping on Elmo" is so much less problematic than "urinating on Elmo" (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:19, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)I also call bullshit. MisterWiki is clearly fluent in the English language; if he knows that "pisar" means "to step", well, he knows that "to step" means "to step" ... come on ... Shereth 18:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) ...only if one rides the AGF toboggan into the trees (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    See, I thought that "piss" meant "to step", not to urinate. Someone explained me what "piss" means in English. I thought it was a cognate word of "pisar", that means "to step". I didn't knew what "piss" meant, but "pisar" yep. And, Elmo isn't the character from Sesame Square (or something else) ? --MW talk contribs 18:24, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    But again, how is "step on elmo" an appropriate redirect? Ironholds (talk) 18:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, obviously it's not, but why too much problem for a simple redirect, this should have been solved with a post on my talk page, not this whole thread here in the ani, that is really bizarre. --MW talk contribs 18:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Can someone please at least remove the autoreviewer bit from him before we have Deficate-on-Oscar redirected to Shitaki. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Can't you see that's not the problem? It's just that this should hadn't been never posted here. It's really annoying just because of a redirect! I know the redirect was bizarre but, c'mon, now I know perfectly what does "piss" means. Thank you. --MW talk contribs 18:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    They don't have autoreviewer since Jan 5. –xenotalk 18:36, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (EC) My bad ... it's still listed on his userpage, and I failed to take the extra step to verify ... (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    MisterWiki, you're missing the point. You're a user who previously exhausted the community's patience for acting immaturely, and within a week you're not only doing stuff like this but refusing to admit it's even a problem, or that you recognise the issue. Ironholds (talk) 18:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you know what taking the piss means? –xenotalk 18:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Up to five minutes ago the answer would, if we are to believe him, be "stealing steps?" :P. Ironholds (talk) 18:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Moving forward

    Ok, we have an editor, fresh off a socking block (reduced due to off-wiki contact). They made at least 1, if not 2 childishly disruptive edits. They then lied about knowing what they were doing, finally admitting they did understand when they did it. They considered the community discussion here on ANI to be a joke, and said so in an edit summary. How are we moving forward? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    By letting MisterWiki know, in no uncertain terms, that any further disruptive editing, no matter how minor, will result in an indefinite block. This may be considered a final warning, and I highly recommend staying far away from the "line" by making only completely non-controversial edits. Tan | 39 19:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    In order to avoid another WGB incident, I have invited MrWiki to acknowledge this warning. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It may be worth looking at this, where many people who opposed blocking him again after he was unblocked (including me) said that he was on pretty thin ice. I'm not quite saying he should be blocked again, but maybe he should. I think that MisterWiki has two big problems on Wikipedia; childish actions, which would be bad enough, and deception, which we've seen with his sockpuppetry in the past and now this feigned confusion about the meaning of the word "piss" that I don't think anyone is buying. I'm wavering on this, but I guess what I'm asking is, can we trust him anymore? -- Atama頭 19:36, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Uhmm.... no.
    I agree with what Tan has said, a final warning, followed up by an indef block if MW continues to be disruptive. Regards, SpitfireTally-ho! 19:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd suggest a block, per Atama. When this last came to ANI we had pretty good consensus for a block, which was eventually turned into a super-duper-final "here is a list of things you can't do" warning. Simply giving him another super-duper warning isn't going to work; he ignored the last one. Ironholds (talk) 19:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I have a laundry-list of faults, but being wishy-washy is certainly not one of them. I guarantee you that I will make good on my warning if the time comes, without discussion. Tan | 39 19:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    As I said before, I don't think why too much problem for a simple redirect that could had been solved by posting a message on my talk page. Always, the users and the admins focus just on the bad things the users had done, but many times, the users are not just that. I have recognized in the past that I've socked and I'm ashamed. I didn't knew what does "piss" meant, until a IRC user (not from #wikipedia-en) explained what does that meant. Yes, you can trust me, because I have good intentions, I don't want to produce problems to anyone but why don't you think a little bit on the person in question. An indef block is excessive. I'm against it in all the cases, not just in my one, maybe 1 year or 2 years for vandals or very very disruptive users. I repeat it, there's no need for this whole controversy about that shitty redirect, that I should have never created, never. --MW talk contribs 20:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    As we all said before, this whole thing could have been "solved" by you not creating a childish redirect based on your attempt at humour. You are the antecedent to the consequence, so put first things first. When you're already on thin ice, it's recommended that you not light even a small fire. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Strange how you know what “shitty” means but not “piss”. Oh well, we’ll see! Leaky Caldron 20:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I was not interested on know what does "piss" meant until this thread was posted. Seriously. --MW talk contribs 20:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Please User:MisterWiki any Latino, knows that piss or "mear" in Spanish means to urinate. And besides, is sponsoring their family photos in the article Chilean people. Apparently Wikipedia is your means of auspice of your city, acquaintances and family, another example is to add your photo in the article Chile.
    PD: I do not think age is a justification for committing such acts of immaturity and vandalism (eg I have 16 years).Ccrazymann (talk) 21:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Look, I know I'm not AGFing here, but I think MisterWiki has been having a bit of fun dragging even this thread into the dirt. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Now it's vandalism. C'mon. --MW talk contribs 22:09, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    For which I've blocked your account 24h. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


    This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Purposal to ban MisterWiki's left knee

    Hello, I recently seen MisterWiki evade a ban by moving his left knee. Should we ban him? BigHappyHarry (talk) 22:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    This is alleged to be another sock of MisterWiki, and if so would definitely be the last straw. But it might also be a joe job, someone trying to get him in trouble. I'm opening an SPI case for a CU to verify, as much to clear him as anything else. -- Atama頭 23:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Excuse me, I am not a sock. BigHappyHarry (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    As I thought, not MisterWiki, but a different sockmaster stirring up trouble. -- Atama頭 23:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    A "kitten stocking", since indef'd. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Since the sock in the above closed section went straight to the Governor's Island article, would it make sense to see if he's also a sock of DeKoning (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    He's asked Jimbo to intervene in this "urgent" matter. Shouldn't there be a Godwin's law corollary for running to Jimbo?
    Has this editor done anything to help Wikipedia? All I've seen is joking around and wasting other editors' time, and lying about what he thinks "piss" means. If this is how he acts after he has an indef block lifted, that suggests to me that another, but more long lived, indef is appropriate.—Finell 02:39, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Funny you should say this. See WP:YOULOSE, an essay I only just wrote. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 22:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Guys, please - whatever about what this editor has done here (and it looks like a lot), can we please leave information about his age, etc, out of the conversation? Yes, he's a minor, and an immature one from all accounts, but I've just had to suppress vast amounts of his userspace due to his posting of personally identifying information relating to himself and others. It's been removed now, so please let's not propagate it any further - Alison ❤ 03:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Agreed. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 22:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • After reading this discussion, I must say I am astounded that MisterWiki has not already been indef blocked. This type of behavior by editors gives Wikipedia a bad name. However, I feel that an indef block may be excessive. I like Crossmr's idea of a ten year block. RadManCF (talk) 02:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Conditional unblock discussion

    I have been in discussion with MisterWiki to replace his 10 year block with a set of editing restrictions designed to curb his antisocial tendencies at Wikipedia. What thinks everybody?

    • MisterWiki is hereby placed on editing restrictions. These include: No use of the User talk: namespace except for brief messages directly related to article editing. No further comments directed at other users. Strict civility parole. Restrictions to stay in place indefinitely, but may be revisited after 1 years time (January 17, 2011) at the request of MisterWiki via ANI discussion. Violation of these terms may result in return of the prior indefinite block.

    Any comments? Are these reasonable for an unblock, or has this person worn out their welcome? --Jayron32 05:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I note that MisterWiki hasn't actually agreed to these. His exact words were "I agree, except for things that I would need" - so essentially, "I'm restricted except when I don't want to be restricted". Ironholds (talk) 12:38, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose and propose increasing block length to fifty years for this unashamed attempt to play us even more. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 06:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Enough with the damn IRC negotiations bullshit. We did this last time. Auntie E. (talk) 07:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. This is getting ridiculous. bibliomaniac15 07:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. If he could stick to the terms of the standard offer, I could see unblocking him sometime down the road but right now? I don't think so. Shereth 07:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - gods, no. Please - Alison ❤ 08:05, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support conditionally. The user needs a block, but not ten years. make him blocked for 3-6 months to let him know the seriousness. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 08:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Let’s not and Pretend We Did — I just read through the above sections and I ran into this user a few days ago without knowing his history (but the above set off a few little tinkles (pun noted)); he was up to immature 'good users' navigation on Jimbo's user page. I reverted it on sight. At most, reduce the 10 years to 7 for good behavior (in 2017;). Cheers, Jack Merridew 08:38, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support conditionally. A block of 10 years, is practically to be out of Wikipedia forever, I believe that a blockade of one year would be more convenient for their maturation. Eg I have 16 years and if I look back one year ago, I realize I've learned, matured and evolved as a person. Do not be harsh with excessive blocks of 10 years, we can all make mistakes, but at the same time have the opportunity to rectify. Regards. Ccrazymann (talk) 09:40, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose After all the recent drama, it is not appropriate to start negotiating an unblock within three hours of the block being imposed; this user is not ready to contribute helpfully. The standard offer is adequate. Johnuniq (talk) 09:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Why does it seem like there's always a mad rush to put an offer on the table as soon as an editor gets indef (or 10 year) blocked? If being here is so important they need to negotiate a pardon as soon as they're finally caught, I think some time between the blocking and the conditional unblock would help them to understand what's going on. Dayewalker (talk) 09:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose, having been watching this it's got to the point of. "This is your final warning." followed by "This is your final final warning." Are we proposing to give him an "Ultimate final final warning for real this time." now? --Taelus (talk) 09:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose:Reduce block to one year, but leave it in place for the year. At the end of the year, give him the probation for a year. At the end of that time, he'll be grown out of this phase anyway. Otherwise, you're just sending the message that anything is excusable if you beg and plead hard enough, and he'll have no incentive to change. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong oppose. Keep the block as it is; there's no reason why the community can't consider it again in a couple of years. Ironholds (talk) 12:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Unlike say WGB, this editor knows he's doing wrong, he just doesn't care nor take responsibility for his actions. Normally, one could make a good judgement call about someone simply on the fixation on rickrolling. Yes, the user's disruption is reasonably minor, but it is done so cavalierly, and with no real sign that he understands that Wikipedia is not a game, and a lot of editor time has been wasted dealing with problems created by the editor. I will not suggest a valid length of time, merely that I oppose an unblock right now because of these issues. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. We've been astoundingly patient with MisterWiki thus far, and his behavior has not changed. Keep the ten year block.RadManCF (talk) 18:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose MisterWiki has been given chance after chance. This community is remarkably tolerant, but at some point, "This is your last chance" has to mean exactly what it says. Calling another user a "nazi" is so far beyond the line of WP:NPA that it can not be easily overlooked. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 20:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Most strongly oppose, recall this user has been saying "please, forgive me, I wont' do it again" for 2 years. His original sockpuppets were blocked for precisely the same he keeps doing, using WP as his playground to promote his town, and using it as vanity for his family and friends (speciall articles "Chilean people", "Pichilemu" and "Chile"). Keep uploading irrelevant images about jokes. He is also know as a repeated liar (when confronted, he usually makes up excuses until he's cornered and then "ok I did lie, I know it was wrong and won't do it again"). -- m:drini 22:34, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose – MisterWiki has been given enough chances; it's been far too many times to assume good faith. Unless after a year he can prove he has been editing constructively on a different project, the 10-year ban stays. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 05:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    New proposal

    Just when you thoguht this was over, I got a comment on my user talk suggesting a new way out for MW. Crosspost commence:

    Well, you do have a gory username so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised by a decade-long block, which I'm sorry to say did make me smile.

    But still . . . yes, the perp merited a block. I'm not at all sure he merits an unblock. But if it were me I'd have given him a week at most. How about something like shortening it to a week from the start of the block, on condition that he demonstrates his likely value by actually drafting a substantial amount of sourced, worthwhile article content (on the subject of his choice) within his userspace? -- Hoary (talk) 15:16, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Whilst I would be opposed to this, I can certainly see the merit in such an idea. It's better than what has currently been proposed and soundly rejected. What I might propose instead is to reduce the block to one month on those terms, provided there is support from the rest of the community. (Actually, I'm tempted to leave him blocked, but I think that's a good compromise). Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 15:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    A one month block seems appropriate, but 10 years is a tad excessive. henrik•talk 15:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Most folk were actually for it. I'm gonna go crosspost this to ANI so discussion can continue there. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 15:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Crosspost end. Discuss. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 15:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I support reducing the blocked to one or a few months depending on what the community decides, childish mistakes have clouded their collaboration in the Wikipedia, but not interest in helping her, a point which is also valuable. Moreover, due to his age and English language, not being their mother tongue, we assume in good faith sometimes not understand or knows how to use the English correctly. Ccrazymann (talk) 16:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Wonderful idea above, though I say it myself. So, a kid behaves like a kid, and tops it off by calling an administrator, or some administrators, or administrators in general, "nazis". Well, kids say the durnedest things. Though actually it's hardly the durnedest thing hereabouts; indeed, it's (sadly) humdrum. He seems to be a waster of others' time, but at least he doesn't seem to do the things that really hurt an encyclopedia, such as beans beans beans, and he does seem to do some useful stuff. I don't much care what he promises to do or not to do. If he intends to contribute, he can make a contribution. Well, let's see a draft contribution. Working on it might concentrate his mind wonderfully. -- Hoary (talk) 16:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • A month is not long enough; it still gives the impression that if you whine and beg and plead enough, you'll get what you want. He now seems to be blackmailing the community by saying (to paraphrase) that if the block is longer than a year, he'll just resign. His behaviour was entirely inappropriate, he has not demonstrated that he's learnt from his mistakes, and reducing the block so much based on him crying will just allow him to think he can act how he pleases. Ironholds (talk) 16:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    However this winds up, while middle teens sometimes don't understand the likely outcomes of what they do (and may stir things up a bit to find out), this kind of taunting and teasing are something else altogether. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think he misinterprets the GF he's given, seems to me as though he rather heedlessly plays users as if he's on a straightforward MUD. en.Wikipedia is a MUD in some ways, but these are not MisterWiki's way, hence perhaps the... muddle. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspect you are correct re: the editor's perception. I'm hoping for some solution to be found that will show MW that the community is serious (should he be allowed back). Nice word play, btw. Regards Tiderolls 17:53, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Leave the ten year block in place. Dealing with disruptive editors in the indecisive fashion that MisterWiki has been dealt with sends the message that we don't take disruptive editing seriously. RadManCF (talk) 18:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, I do find those much fun to stumble upon :) As to keeping the ten year block, that's ok, since after a few months almost any blocked/banned user can send an email to an admin asking if an unblock might be talked about. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:27, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, he asked for unblock once more. I'm going to warn him that unless he backs off for a while I will modify his block settings so that he cannot edit even his userspace, and he will be banished forever. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 20:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • a) I'll leave him email free b) He's already come back from an indef only to get reblocked and then call admins Nazis. He blew his standard offer. Even when we had a proposal above to help him, he's still wasting our time. This is hopefuly purely academic, he has promised not to post it anymore. Then again... Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 21:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Note, he has already used up the standard offer, this sockpuppet was unblocked precisely because he promised to act maturely and stop disrupting. -- m:drini 22:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't remotely support standard offer. If the community decides to send him packing we can't form a new consensus 6 months later when everyone has wandered off and forgotten about them.--Crossmr (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It seems clear that we all agree with some form of block, even though the lengths differ. Can I suggest reconsidering the situation in say, two months, when he's had a chance to reflect? I personally oppose any unblock for a long, long time, because I feel the problem is his immaturity, which can't be resolved in a month, but we'll see what the community says when it comes up again. Ironholds (talk) 23:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • opppose any unblock before 2020. I suggested it for a reason. He had his super duper last chance. How serious does the community look if after every super last chance indef, we turn around and go "oh well.. maybe it wasn't exactly your last chance.. let's reduce the block to a shoulder massage and tell him to have at it"?--Crossmr (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think we'd be wasting our time. Let's draw a line under this. Guy (Help!) 18:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    MisterWiki's "wiki project"

    Just to note that just before he went down the tubes this time, MisterWiki for the second time attempted to create a wiki project (currently at User:MisterWiki/WikiProject_Modern_Talking). The first time, in December, he was warned to go thru the process and not just to claim he was a project and invent some templates to stick on articles. This time, he appropriated another Project's shortcuts [1] and was again advised not to start the project without any supporters [2]. Since he is gone for a while, I have moved everything back into his userspace (again), and suggested that he not attempt to restart this project if he is unblocked [3] as I for one would consider it disruption.Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:04, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    That's likely about to push him over the edge. I'll AGF, but how many centiseconds before we see some socks related to that "project", and some angry diatribes? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sure we will. Trouble was, he started out in an edit war with another editor over the content of some articles about this german pop group, then started his "wiki project" to give his edits more 'status' than the other editor. I had some lengthy conversation with him the first time, about how he needed active members for the project. I didn't do it to annoy him - I've kept everything and moved all the pages back to userspace rather than just tagging for CSD, and corrected the transclusions - but I can't see why his deliberately ignoring the rules should be allowed to stand.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It shouldn't. Every time we give him an inch of leeway it seems he screws something else up. I suggest deleting the project as improperly created and below the number of active users required; perhaps that will show him that negative actions have negative consequences, since unblocking him in two months certainly wont. Ironholds (talk) 12:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Strongly Seconded. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 19:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support deletion. The projects's categories are under discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 January 18#Category:WikiProject_Modern_Talking, but in the circumstances I don't see any resaon to await the outcome of CFD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

     NativeForeigner is doing...

     per concensus NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 22:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC) NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 22:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I've speedily deleted the category and templatespace pages. Not particularly bothered about the User space pages to speedy those, but another admin may wish to do so. –xenotalk 22:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Hovhannesk and wilful misunderstanding of categories

    I'd like to complain about User:Hovhannesk, who for months on end has been adding bogus categories to biographies of ethnic Armenians. For example, at Mariam Matossian, he added Category:Armenian musicians. I reverted him with the question "but is she a citizen?", yet he simply undid my revert. It's proper to put her in Category:Armenian Canadians, because she is of Armenian descent. It's not right to include her at Category:Armenian musicians, because chances are very high she's not a citizen of Armenia. She's Canadian by citizenship, so she belongs in Category:Canadian folk musicians.

    Another example: this edit. First, it's illogical to have him at Category:Polish people of Armenian descent and Category:Polish Armenians -- one or the other (presumably the former). But it's downright absurd to put him under Category:Armenian film directors. He was not a citizen of Armenia, never made a film there, and for all we can tell, never set foot there.

    I've tried to reason with him, but was met with defiance. This isn't a content dispute: we categorise people in professions by citizenship, period. And he does it all the time, so there's a bit of urgency involved too. Could someone else try to drum some sense into him? - Biruitorul Talk 18:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    What really matters is what relaible sources report as far as nationality goes. Something similar was going on at the Rachel Maddow bio where Canadian nationality was being added to the lead per a citation to Canada's nationality laws. --Tom (talk) 22:36, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Eastmain, it is possible some of these are dual citizens. However, he has stated he doesn't care about citizenship, but about "ethnic race". Moreover, have a look at this edit. There was no Armenian state at any time during this individual's lifetime, yet he went ahead and added Category:Armenian actors (as well as Category:Turkish Armenians when Category:Turkish people of Armenian descent was already there). I think that's a problem, and shows he isn't at all concerned with citizenship. - Biruitorul Talk 00:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Sigh. This editor seems to be a bit of an issue. Note the number of automated BLP notices on their talk page. Also see this old ANI thread. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 23:58, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Tom is right: what matters is what reliable sources say, particularly when it comes to living people. Repeatedly adding dubious and unsourced categories to BLPs is a blocking offense. Jayjg (talk) 20:50, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    One factor that needs to be remembered here is that until a few years ago the Armenians were an ethnic group without a state: it would be hard for any Armenians to have dual citizenship. (A similar case is the Kurds.) Further, some members of an ethnic group live as expatriates due to a clear risk to their well being: life may be far better as a cab driver in Berlin than as a professor at their national university where they might be taken for "questioning" by the national security apparatus at any time, for example. That said, what I would look for is some assertion that the individual has a presence in Armenian culture -- that their music, art or writings are intended in some significant degree for an Armenian audience. While personally I would hold a person to a lower standard of verifiability than some here would, I still would look for something in the article to support the category beyond place of birth. -- llywrch (talk) 16:47, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Armenians born in the Armenian SSR certainly have evidence in their internal and external Soviet passports to determine if they are Armenian citizens. If reliable sources cannot be found that call a person a Soviet and/or an Armenian citizen, then it cannot be included in that person's article. Abductive (reasoning) 00:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    But what about Armenians born in Turkey or Syria, areas traditionally considered part of the Armenian homelands? (Which is why I mentioned the Kurds as a similar case.) The issue of ethnicity here is far more complex than simple labels on a passport -- no matter which country issues them. -- llywrch (talk) 05:07, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I would expect that with persons notable enough to feature in Wikipedia, we would have some evidence of them self-identifying as Armenian (the same principal as for Americans identifying as Jewish). This might exclude a few people who do not refer to their origins out of fear or other reasons, but is probably the best we can do.Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Edit summary vandalism & Civility

    I would like to mention couple of things in the ANI report :

    1. Uncivil remarks and personal attacks by User:Goethean—"f***ing joke" "megalomaniac and a liar"
    2. Edit summary vandalism by IP 76.217.117.66 which looks ugly in History and counter personal attacks!—[4]. ( Also would like to mention that another admin User:Abecedare was investigating stalking by AT&T ip address on User:Goethean )

    --TheMandarin (talk) 03:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The user has a history of disruptive editing based off the talk page discussions regarding violations of WP:3RR, at a very minimum. I'd like to point out that [5] was a personal attack in response to a request to avoid personal attacks. I was considering dropping off a {{uw-npa4im}} on the talk page based on that, but based on the conversation that has already happened, it doesn't seem like it's useful. I would like to see some input from the user, or at least an acknowledgement that this is a problem in hopes that things can change. But the comment regarding religion is quite unacceptable. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 04:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:DTTR. If you think someone is using personal attacks, ask them nicely to tone it down. Templates tend to inflame, rather than cool off, heated situations. If your goal is to get them to stop, the best method is to start a non-templated discussion with them. --Jayron32 04:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well my comment wasn't really regarding the template; the fact remains that there already was an attempt to tone down the personal attacks, and the response was to use a personal attack. At that point, there isn't much more that can be done. I remain hopeful that the user stops by here to give some insight, though. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 05:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The anonymous editor was definitely out of line, but I can see he was provoked. A bit of context to the above edit shows that Goethean wrote that "You've got a tremendous amount of gall complaining about systemic bias against your position. What a fucking joke." Neither side really looks too good. I think that both editors be given a warning that further inflammatory comments shouldn't be made. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 09:45, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I noticed this discussion after this user undid an edit of mine with the summary, 'undoing hatcheding of article'. I think he meant 'hatcheting.' I felt insulted, especially since I made my edit in good faith. Maybe he didn't understand the warning about using good manners? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I have created a Wikiquette alert. I hate trying to type this neologism, btw. From now on I'm calling it an etiquette alert. The spelling of Wikiquete Wikiqet Wikiquette makes my brain hurt. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 12:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I have seen the civility problems, rampant personal attacks from as early as 2008, explained briefly at the wikiquette. --TheMandarin (talk) 16:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    La Brea Tar Pits

    Resolved
     – Per WP:DUCK, I've blocked both accounts indefinitely. It's a dead give away when a single use account signs their signature on both accounts manually, but wikilinks to article space instead of user space. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 13:55, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    An editor with the name of "Playdoh"-something has been waging a slow edit war for the last month, repeatedly attempting to insert a promotional piece. The editor won't follow consensus, and has been arguing his case on the talk page, and keeps adding it anyway. I don't know if I can take this to the edit-warring page since he doesn't seem to have violated 3RR (yet). But since he won't listen to anyone else, maybe a notice on his talk page, from an admin, might get his attention? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    It looks like no serious attempt has been made to have a discussion with this user. The only messages on his/her talk page are a boilerplate welcome message and a one-liner with little more than a link to WP:3RR (and no explanation). rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 06:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Playdoh-something?! Please provide diffs, references to what and who you mean. And please notify that person of the multiple threads you have now opened about them. Thanks. Weakopedia (talk) 08:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Playdoh1845 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    As for spamming, here are some diffs. Also, given that the editor above has been participating in the discussion on the talk page, your note there has been no attempt to discuss this with the editor is false, given there is ample discussion there telling the user exactly that. Please read a little more into the situation before you go making broad statements that don't assume the good-faith of others. Bugs even said that he tried explaining this to the user.— Dædαlus Contribs 09:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Continuing the discussion without first informing the editor of the discussion is couterproductive. I have now informed them of this section. Weakopedia (talk) 10:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, apart from the article talkpage, I'm not seeing any other threads where BB mentioned this. —DoRD (talk) 11:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    My apologies, BB appeared twice in my watchlist and I misread the second edit summary - one thread it is. Weakopedia (talk) 14:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The user is a single-purpose account whose entire focus is that one article, to promote his website. I've already warned him at least twice at the one place he's working. I wanted an admin to speak to him on his talk page - where, if you'll notice, he's ignored all attempts by other to get him to follow consensus and stop his spamming. I was hoping an admin would post on his talk page so he might pay some attention, since he doesn't care what anyone else thinks. If he comes here to make his case, that's fine. Thank you (to the non-admin) for posting on his talk page. We'll see what he does next. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Another thing: If the user persists, can I take him to the edit-warring page even if he hasn't technically violated 3RR? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, if the editor continues to add the material, even if they don't violate 3rr, take it to an/ew as it allows for slow edit wars as well. —DoRD (talk) 15:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    3RR is meaningless. If someone is edit warring, you can take them to the edit-warring page. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 17:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    3rr is only "the bright line," before which blockable edit warring can and often does happen. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Possible sock puppetry

    See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Playdoh1845. Thank you for your time. Whoever has been involved here, I hereby request that you review the evidence and comment. Again, thank you for your time.— Dædαlus Contribs 05:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    His apparent sock is also accusing us of being workers for the La Brea Tar Pits museum. Until this situation came up, I was unaware that there was a conspiracy theory connected with this place. He's basically accusing us of trying to sweep his pet project under the tar pit. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Stealing a userpage, abusive comments

    Resolved
     – Page blanked as lacking attribution, later recreated as an attack page and subsequently deleted. –xenotalk 00:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    {{Resolved|No administrative action required. All Wikipedia pages are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License; scroll to the bottom of any Wikipedia page and read the fine print. -FASTILY (TALK) 20:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)}}[reply]

    After I noticed User:TheRightfullEqual stole another editor's userpage wholesale without attribution (see his versus User:NDfan007), I deleted it with the edit summary "Remove copyvio; license for that text requires attribution. Copied from User:NDfan007." This disease of copying userpages wholesale without attribution seems to be going around in the last day or so. The response I got was this abusive comment on my talkpage and TheRightfullEqual's userpage now changed to be a personal attack on me.  Glenfarclas  (talk) 10:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC) EDITED TO ADD: also this attack from new sockpuppet User:The Man That Rocks And Is Cool.[reply]

    I'm not convinced that it is a copyright violation to use someone else's userpage (and I speak as someone who copied elements of mine...) – everything on Wikipedia is submitted under a free copyright license, after all. What's the problem? ╟─TreasuryTag►senator─╢ 10:10, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I contributed to that thread, and have obviously read it. I am still not convinced that it is a copyright violation to use someone else's userpage (and I speak as someone who copied elements of mine...) – everything on Wikipedia is submitted under a free copyright license, after all. What's the problem? ╟─TreasuryTag►Woolsack─╢ 10:22, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Again, I'm no expert, just going by what was said above, but the problem would be that the CC-BY-SA isn't a free license in the sense that it's like public domain material or something; attribution is still required for a subsequent use to be permitted.  Glenfarclas  (talk) 10:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The terms of CC-BY-SA are clear - re-use of content requires attribution, even within Wikipedia. However, although that is a perfectly correct reason to prevent unattributed userpage copying, the fact that it is deceitful and rude is more important but also more open to wikilawyering. CIreland (talk) 10:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    COmment
    SO similiar looking User Pages is a crime? O_O. --Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 12:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Idential userpages are violating US copyright law without attribution, yes. Ironholds (talk) 12:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    How about similiar looking? My User page layout is similiar to Deltype's. --Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 13:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Similar looking doesn't really matter; but if you've copied parts of it, you need attribution. The same copyright license applies in our article space and user space. We don't alow cut-and-paste moves in article space for this reason, and we can't allow them (by law) in user space either. CC-BY-SA requires attribution. I don't know if we have any views or polcies on it apart from the legal stuff, I haven't checked. Ale_Jrbtalk 13:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    While what the user did would be considered rather rude and obnoxious, is there really a wikipedian policy that prohibits it? I thought this was supposed to be a free-content projet. Prop3v56 (talk) 20:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, there is, both the GFDL and CC-BY-SA require attribution for copying content. What we produce here is free as in beer and as in freedom, under the condition that credit is given where credit is due. MLauba (talk) 22:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed it goes beyond Wikipedia policy and goes into international copyright law. Everything anyone posts here is copyright to them, they own it, and the condition they give to otherwise free use is that it be given attribution and that derivative works follow the same license. Using Wikipedia content, even inside Wikipedia, without attribution is copyright infringement. Chillum (Need help? Ask me) 22:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I see this is closed, so I will not re-open it, but I think Fastily's close comment is in direct contravention of http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use Woogee (talk) 00:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The idea that this should be pursued as a copyright violation is fanciful, but excessive unauthorized "borrowing" of other people's userpages (to the point of copying their barnstars, etc.) is uncivil, and if necessary I will blank or delete such pages if they are not revised after a warning and a reasonable time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Newyorkbrad's comments notwithstanding; This is correct. The page would have been properly attributed if the edit summary of the initial edit had said "copied from (source)". However, lacking this, it was a violation of the cc-by-sa license. –xenotalk 00:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    To re-distribute a text page in any form, provide credit to the authors either by including a) a hyperlink (where possible) or URL to the page or pages you are re-using, b) a hyperlink (where possible) or URL to an alternative, stable online copy which is freely accessible, which conforms with the license, and which provides credit to the authors in a manner equivalent to the credit given on this website, or c) a list of all authors.. The edit summary would need to provide a hyperlink or URL from the original source, not just the name of the person whose page was copied. Woogee (talk) 00:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed. That's what you would paste where I put (source). "Copied from User:Xeno" would be sufficient as Mediawiki would generate a hyperlink (the dickishness of copying wholesale a userpage without permission notwithstanding). –xenotalk 00:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    For anyone who doesn't know, WP:Copying within Wikipedia is the relevant guideline. Flatscan (talk) 04:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    NYBrad, I don't the pursuing this as a copyright issue is fanciful at all, that is exactly what it is. Not Wikipedia's copyright either, but the user who created the content. You can call it "borrowing" if you want, but the fact is that the content of Wikipedia is using has been given to use with some very clear conditions and attribution is one of them. That being said, I don't think anyone is going to involve the law, but it is entirely reasonable for a user to demand attribution for their content. Chillum (Need help? Ask me) 18:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Article Vandals

    Resolved
     – Content dispute. No admin intervention required, but discussion is urged. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 14:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Editor User:Racepacket is in my view abusing the authority to edit articles. Specifically, Racepacket has targeted two articles, the List of Notable Morehouse College Alumni and the Black Ivy League, by deleting valid content.

    Similar deletions and/or comments have not been made to similar articles such as the list of Earlham college alumni, Hampden Sydney, Elon University, etc. Why these two articles have received such harsh scrutiny is a question the editor must answer. Nonetheless, deleting a large percentage of an article which has been on the wiki for several months is odd if not deviant.

    The edits made by Racepacket destroy or otherwise undermine the historical significance of Black Colleges and the tradition of the Black Ivy League.

    Because similar deletions and or comments have not occurred on similar articles, one can only conclude that a certain level of bias exists.

    The content/text deleted was factual and supported by citations and acted to further the overall purpose of these article(s). It is unfortunate however, that the editor found it necessary to intrude on two well written articles.

    In the spirit of MLK Day, we must promote peace and harmony by discontinuing invasive attacks on substantive articles of historic significance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John E. Rhea (talk • contribs) 14:10, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Three things right off the bat:
    1. If you're trying to paint somebody as a racist, stop right there. Such personal attacks will get you nowhere here fast.
    2. I don't see what much ANI is able to do for you here. This looks more like a content dispute more than anything. Rather than continue conversation with Racepacket, you instead come here and accuse him of vandalism – a lack of assuming good faith on your part as well.
    3. You are required to notify whom you are reporting here (like that I just had to do).
    –MuZemike 14:19, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


    • I should note that when discussing issues related to "black folk" too often we conclude that a "contesting party" is raising allegations of racism. Such makes it easy to dismiss the underlying issue. In the instant situation, we have an editor who is applying scrutiny to an article unnecessarily.John E. Rhea (talk) 14:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)JER[reply]

    Racepacket is discussing this on the talk page. Suggest you take an AGF pill and do likewise. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I am a firm believer in "Don't bite the newby," and User:John E. Rhea is clearly a newby. He created his account on Nov. 27, 2009 and has 436 edits that were are mostly devoted to Morehouse College and the Black Ivy League articles. We have left welcome messages explaining the need to sign talk page comments and to document with references main article contributions. With respect to lists of college alumni, such alumni should be notable. If a Wikipedia article exists for the person, I assume that notability has been established. However, User John E. Rhea has been adding many people who are not covered by Wikipedia articles. In these cases, I evaluated whether the person could meet notability standards, and if not, I deleted the name. At Mr. Rhea's request, I have spent the last three hours working on Earlham College. The list of notable Earlham alumni and faculty were recently trimmed by User:Awiseman, but I did trim three non-notable faculty. (I then turned to building up the referenced content of the article.) The members of WP:UNI are willing to apply criteria fairly regardless of the race of the individuals involved. However, the insertion of non-notable people in alumni lists is an on-going problem and warning messages are included as comments in the source code of such lists asking editors to not do that.
    I don't understand his concept of "intruding on an article." Perhaps User:John E. Rhea needs some mentoring. He has a lot of energy, but needs to learn more about WP:N, WP:NPOV as well as the mechanics of Wikipedia.
    Regarding "deleting a large percentage of an article" (without discussion on the talk page), that is in fact what User:John E. Rhea has done today. Again, this is probably a beginner's mistake. Racepacket (talk) 14:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I have to say, that's very gracious and good natured of you Racepacket... - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 15:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It could be a case of mistakenly thinking that editors own articles. In any case, I apologize if I caused any difficulty here. When I saw this being brought up on Martin Luther King, Jr. Day I naturally drew the line that someone may have been alleging racism going on. I also assumed that the OP wanted some admin action taken, i.e. via a protection or a block (which clearly neither will happen per the recent commentary). But yeah. I would also recommend to keep discussing on the article's talk page, as that's that article talk pages are there for. –MuZemike 19:16, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I notice that Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/John E. Rhea has confirmed that User:John E. Rhea and User:MuJami are the same person. Given the note on User talk:John E. Rhea about deleting an account, it's possible this is just a case of a newbie forgetting his password and making a new account - although it wouldn't have killed him to explain this. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Help Please

    Just by sheer luck I happen to spot an article created by a now blocked user with a bunch of racially charged BS concerning the earthquake in Hatti, on a hunch I check the contributions and found a massive attack campaign underway at the article Timeline of rescue efforts after the 2010 Haiti earthquake. I semi-protected the article and reverted the worst of the vandalism. I had a look through it, so far everything seems correct after the revert, but I would really like an extra pair of eyes to check to make sure all the vandalism is out of the article (I haven't been following the quake statistics all that much), and I could use a second opinion on the semi-protection length. I plugged in 6 hours, but in all honest if today's edits were any indication I think more time should be allotted. TomStar81 (Talk) 17:42, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I checked all the diffs from the last good edit before ClueBot's back to 17 Jan, and they all look clean to me. —DoRD (talk) 17:58, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, and one of the vandal edits mentioned "9000" so I expect that this has something to do with /b/. —DoRD (talk) 18:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh Lord, we all know that means :/ Handling this assignment is going to be loads of phun... TomStar81 (Talk) 18:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I thought something was up. I mean, I'm aware that your average school IP is filled with thee cream of both stupidity and ignorance's crops, but it seemed as though the Haitian earthquake articles had been getting a bit too much attention from vandals... HalfShadow 19:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    NY Times content

    The New York Magazine is reporting that the New York Times is going to cease providing free content and will install a "metered" payment system. Please see Wikipedia:Using WebCite for information on how to archive NY Times articles in Wikipedia before they disappear behind a paywall.--Blargh29 (talk) 22:38, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Sounds like a bot waiting to be written. Toddst1 (talk) 22:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The current NYT plan seems to be that only access to more than a few articles will require payment, just like Financial Times does. So, I don't see how this will cause any serious problems for us. You'd still be able to verify the occasional article reference. Besides, all NYT has to do to nix all your WebCite copies is to send an opt-out letter to WebCite. Pcap ping 05:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Tom Butler's maintenance of an attack page against me

    Resolved

    Tom Butler has blanked his user page of his own accord.

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

    Tom Butler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Relevant discussions:

    I am concerned that this particular user is maintaining an on-wiki WP:ATTACK page in violation of the userpage policy. Since there is a history of bad-blood between myself and this user, I have expressed my concerns to others and asked for their advice. The user is reticent and refuses to adjust his user page. I ask now for uninvolved administrator intervention.

    Thanks.

    ScienceApologist (talk) 23:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I didn't see you referred to specifically on his page... I don't find pages complaining on how the skeptics are all blind particularly tasteful but... could you please specify the section of the talk page where he refers specifically to you. Simonm223 (talk) 23:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • For what it's worth, most of the quotes that Tom Butler finds so abhorrent are from me, not ScienceApologist. The lead quote at "Expectation of safety" is from SA. I've been aware of the page for some time, and have even pointed to it in my RFAs. Mr. Butler has the same right to consider my views harmful to Wikipedia as I do to find his views harmful. So long as he doesn't stoop to name-calling and other inflammatory techniques, I don't consider it to be an attack page.—Kww(talk) 23:19, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I may have been looking at an older version. Sorry about the refresh. Still, the entire userpage is somewhat distasteful and he does take a quote from me out-of-context (even though he removed my timestamp and username attribution). Anyway, I can't help but feel that the maintenance of this page is a battlefield tactic. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    On closer inspection you are referenced once by initials SA with an implication that your (low) opinion of conspiracy theory proponents makes Wikipedia unsafe. I bet you like that about as much as I like being called a pawn of the Communist Party of China! That would suggest that this particular anti-skeptical screed is a bit more targeted than some I've seen on Wikipedia. I'd present this as a much less problematic example of an ant-skeptical complaint on a talk page for the sake of comparison. It would appear that SA's complaint may have some merit. Simonm223 (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • So Tom Butler is basically setting himself up to look bad if he gets involved in any kind of dispute that gets escalated. At this point I would be sitting back in my large black leather chair and stroking my long-haired white cat... Guy (Help!) 23:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    There should be no objection to a person speaking the truth on their own page, but this drama is too time consuming. SA, if any editor is going to say things they don't want others to know about, then perhaps it would be best not to speak. Take responsibility for your actions! Tom Butler (talk) 19:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Requesting Admin action

    Hi. There is a problem with user Gibnews attitude. Himself, me and other editors have been tensely discussing Gibraltar-related articles for some time already. This editor has usually resorted to ad hominem arguments, focusing in the contributors he disagrees with instead of in the actual content of editions or articles. Dissenting editors have constantly been described as 'Spanish', and both 'Spain' or the 'Spanish Government' have been pointlessly vilified quite often as well. Here are some diffs to illustrate my statement:1- 2- 3- 4- 5- 6-

    He has been asked more than once to refrain from this kind of uncivil behaviour. In fact, a moratorium concerning the disputed articles was agreed amongst the editors involved in the ongoing discussions "with the understanding that the entirity of ones comments must be about the proposed editions and not the editors". However, today I've seen this, and I feel that it is enough already. This can't go on forever. You may very well agree with Gibnews' positions, or mine, or neither. But this reiterated conduct is unacceptable. So long, there have been several attempts to engage with this particular editor in civil debate, the latter being the aforementioned 'moratorium' (to my knowledge -I am not the only editor involved here-).

    Thus, I request Admin action as a last alternative. --Cremallera (talk) 23:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't get it. The diffs predate the moratorium and the diff you've just posted isn't a problem from what I can see. Gibnews does have an attitude problem, made worse when he is baited. Which he most certainly has by editors that include Cremallera. I can confidently predict the usual suspects will be along presently to demand his head.
    The atmosphere on Gibraltar articles was getting quite poisonous, which is why Narson quite sensibly proposed a moratorium to cool emotions. DR is currently being tried, so I really wonder why Cremallera has suddenly appeared to make this post out of left field. Justin talk 23:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I can provide post-moratorium diffs also. The latter I've provided is, in fact. However, you admit he has an attitude problem as well. And he has done nothing to put an end to it, even with past and current dispute resolution attempts. PS: do you really see no problem in modifying another editor's comment to state that his IP belongs to 'Telefonica Espana'? It is quite serious actually. --Cremallera (talk) 23:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I see Gibnews appending to the comment much the same way that a person would put a SPA template at the end of a person's comment in an AfD. I wouldn't call that "modifying another editor's comment"; that's a pretty harsh bit of hyperbole there. On the other hand, it wasn't necessary and certainly escalates the nationalist problems, which is a problem that Gibnews has (and others who edit those articles). That's one reason to have a moratorium, pointing out who is "pro-Spain" and "pro-Gibraltar" and constantly referencing it derails any productive discussion. Justin is absolutely correct in that Gib was baited though. Honestly, I'd totally give him a pass in that pointing out that the editor is editing from a Spanish ISP is the worst comment he made in response to an SPA (sock?) trying to stoke the nationalist fires. -- Atama頭 01:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    He was discussing with an IP (Firethingol, I guess) who hasn't attacked him personally and whose immediately prior comments have been labelled as racist and demeaning by Gibnews himself... He wasn't precisely baited, in my opinion.
    Anyway, how many more times should he get a pass for that, Atama? You know that he's been doing this repeatedly and for a long time already. He's been asked to refrain plenty of times as well. It is not an isolated case by any means, and I agree with you that this conduct is certainly intended to derail any productive discussion. Last, but not least, constantly profiling other editors by their putative nationalities is a racist attitude. I pointed it out before to no tangible gain, so I don't see the point in giving him a pass just another time. I am already sick of it. --Cremallera (talk) 09:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    You might like to visit Gibnews on YouTube and observe some of the appalling racial abuse heaped in Gibnews' direction by a person calling themselves Firethingol. I have to admit I like Gibnews, I don't agree with a lot of what he says, he is overly nationalistic in many ways but he at least speaks his mind openly so you know where he is coming from. I also observe that if you butt heads with the guy, he'll butt straight back. However, if you approach him reasonably and don't scream and rant about POV, or accuse him of a racist attitude he is direct but reasonable in return - something you should know about after you stopped screaming POV and discussed the Tireless incident in a reasonable manner. His attitude toward Spain is understandable given the history of the way Spain has acted since the '60s and I speak as someone who is half-Spanish who finds the attitude of a now democratic Spain towards Gibraltar uncomfortable. Sometimes the perspective of how others see us makes uncomfortable reading but that doesn't make it racism. I don't see his conduct as intended to derail discussions, his conduct is usually a response to being provoked. I see it as counter productive to run here, saying look at what Gibnews has done now and conveniently omitting the conduct of the editor that provoked the response in the first place. Equally counter productive is combing his contributions to find things to complain about. Is this the 3rd thread on AN/I aimed at sanctioning Gibnews in as many months?
    What interesting about the diff you've just supplied is that it relates to yet another thread aimed at sanctioning Gibnews. I say interesting because it seemed to be counter productive to that aim in that several commentators recognised the attitude of the person making the report as being problematic in disrupting articles to make a point. Equally that you were tag teaming with the same editor and there was a WP:Battleground mentality developing. When that comment was made, you instantly attempted to turn the comments into a racial issue. You didn't take on good faith the comments on your own behaviour were problematic.
    None of which is intended to justify the problematic aspects of Gibnews' behaviour but what does act as a counter point is that he is a very productive editor, who has contributed much in terms of imagery and is very knowledgable about a limited subject. If you wish him to refrain, then my suggestion is to avoid provocation and to equally condemn the people who provoke him in the first place. Constantly focusing on one aspect of the problem and myopically ignoring the other side of the coin won't help.
    As regards Atamas comments, yes I think there is a sock at work trying to stoke the nationalist fires again and to derail the DR that is currently underway. I could make an educated guess at who is doing it and my personal suspicion is that the person responsible is looking to stymy DR to push things to arbcom. Equally as Atama has quite reasonably pointed out in his mediation efforts, the behaviour of all of the editors on Gibraltar related articles has been unhelpful for quite some time. Narson's attempt at a moratorium to cool tempers doesn't appear to have worked as the first edits following its end were baiting Gibnews again. What needs to happen is to allow DR to run its course, if there is any admin action required it would be to stop the IP activities intended to derail it. I don't see demands for Gibnews' head to be helpful. Justin talk 09:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    This is the first AN/I thread I start. The other ones I know of were posted by Ecemaml and Gibnews himself. In the first place, please stop the discourse concerning my attempts to turn his comments into a racial issue. He has been profiling dissenting editors as 'Spanish' for months. I've provided several diffs. To repeatedly describe or address people by their ethnicity is racist. And, myopically or not, I just can't ignore it. Neither you should, in my opinion.
    On the other hand, what are you suggesting exactly? To just endure the reams of offensive comments he keeps writing over and over, despite previous multiple requests, AN/I threads, moratoriums and the like? What exactly are WP policies for, then? --Cremallera (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    It seems my suggestion to stop reducing everything to racial and ethnic lines is going right over your head. You don't recognise the problematic aspects of your own behaviour or the people on the same side of the dividing line as yourself. Brushing this under the carpet is unhelpful. As Atama observed if this goes to arbcom, no one will come out of it with any credit. And several independent observers have pointed this out to you, perhaps listening to them would help. Just a suggestion. To avoid the risk of another AN/I thread degenerating into a tendentious mess, this will be my last comment here. Un abrazo. Justin talk 10:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


    RESPONSE

    1. I have not raised the matter of FireintheGol on Youtube as firstly I can't be sure its the same entity, and secondly I blocked him/her from posting further abusive comments there, and Wikipedia is another thing.

    2. I did not consider that the IP user who left an unsigned comment was that particular editor anyway as FireintheGol writes coherent English What you are complaining about is

    Where I added to an unsigned comment which signbot had added the IP that it had originated from telefonica Espana. Its useful information to know that an anonymous editor who wants to express a Gibraltarian opinion is posting from Somewhere else. There has been no further comment excepting it seems to have upset Cremallera.

    3. In relation to my two warnings that FireintheGol has made racist comments, This and This where he claims he is not being racist about Gibraltarians because we are not 'a race' I politely referred him to the wikipedia article which explains why that assumption is wrong. HOWEVER as we seem to be having a reasonable dialogue, and its Cremallera who is complaining here, I question the motives for this complaint. Looks like harassment to me. --Gibnews (talk) 11:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


    Excuse me but have you modified the title of the section?
    First of all, whether an IP belongs to 'Telefonica' or not is not useful information. I wholeheartedly think that this should be clear already, given your experience in Wikipedia and the previous queries. What the IP said may be relevant (or not), just like other contributions are to be considered by focusing on their actual content, regardless of your opinion on whether the editor who wrote them is 'Spanish' or not.
    Secondly, I'm not even getting into your issues with FireintheGol neither here nor in Youtube. That's your bussiness, as long as you behave in a normal fashion, which you don't so far.
    And finally, my posts here are the first ones since the moratorium was agreed to, the 22 December 2009, so it hardly looks like 'harrassment'. What does look just like it are your reiterated comments on other editors, namely concerning their POV, nationality or alleged nationalism. And, since you've agreed to refrain from this kind of attitude here, yet you engage on it, I have no further option that to request for external help. --Cremallera (talk) 15:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I see nothing wrong with altering the title of the section here to something appropriate, after all it IS a complaint about Gibnews, whats the problem with that? As its on ANI 'requesting admin action' is a bit vague whats your problem?.
    Yes we had a moratorium, if you read what you have cited it expired last year, indeed one of the other editors broke it first. Thats all it was, you are making up the rest.
    This complaint is pure harassment, but lets see what others think. You have said enough and as have I. --Gibnews (talk) 19:08, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Cutting through all of the other complaints, I believe I see what the core problem is here. Gibnews stated, "Its useful information to know that an anonymous editor who wants to express a Gibraltarian opinion is posting from Somewhere else." No, it most certainly is not. Viewing editors through such a prism is a very dangerous thing. To label one person as Gibraltarian and another as Spanish is very unhelpful. Gibnews, I hate to say this but if you continue to approach the articles with such an attitude you're going to eventually find yourself in very hot water. Such attitudes tend to bring topic bans, because they are very divisive and prevent any hope of useful collaboration or participation in consensus-building. Fireinthegol is just as guilty of doing this, with such statements as "that reference is an opinion by a Gibraltarian", but seeing as how that editor is probably a sockpuppet you're bringing yourself down to the level of a banned editor. The proper reaction to such talk should be to ask the person if Gibraltarian opinions are automatically invalid as reliable sources because they are Gibraltarian, not to comment in kind. As to the comments about Signbot, Signbot only signs comments, it doesn't label editors as being a particular nationality. You really need to stop that mentality, and if you can't, perhaps you should stay away from Gibraltar-related articles. -- Atama頭 20:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I never said the anonymous editor was Spanish, indeed they might be Romanian or Martian however the ISP used by the anonymous editor was Telefonica Espana and that was my ONLY comment on the subject, except for here. However there does seem to be an ongoing problem that due to the intransigent attitude of the Spanish government and its irredentist claim, currently being pushed by the PP opposition trying to wrong foot the incumbent PSOE prior to an election in Spain, that a number of editors from that country seem to want to rewrite Gibraltar wikipedia pages in line with the totally negative Spanish view of the territory and its inhabitants. Tactics include Filibustering on the talk pages, engaging in edit wars, and taking disputes to every available area and article. I'm sick to death about arguments over whether an obscure town in Spain should feature on the Gibraltar page, tens of thousands of bytes and countless hours have gone down the drain. Although arguments on the Internet are preferable to cannon balls and sieges, after 306 years and 99% of the Gibraltar population rejecting any Spanish involvement in our country, enough is enough. And a Wikipedia which contains a substantive amount of lies irrelevancies and propaganda is worthless. Goodnight. --Gibnews (talk) 01:45, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    See, personally I'd favour topic blocking everyone who has previously edited those articles in order to clear out some of this, but knowing those involved it would result in a sock fest. The nationalist accusations are, and I agree with Atama here, one of the most unhelpful things coming from either 'side' (I also dislike the concept of there only being two sides). It results in this concept that 'Oh, he is British/Spanish, he must really be biased and can be ignored' and that isn't good. The attempt at a moratorium worked in a way, in that it seems to have reduced the ad hominem attacks for a short period, but there was baiting from various parties almost straight after it ended and now we are back to the same position. I do not want to take part in that talk page as it is and I am watching some good editors or potentially good editors head into a bad spiral entering it. DR needs to be followed through to the end now. --Narson ~ Talk • 20:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Atama yes the nationalist tendencies on both sides needs to be tackled, equally the baiting issue does as well. I'd also suggest that people need to recognise bad behaviour on all sides of the coin not just the one they favour. Part of the problem is only labelling one person, when the problematic behaviour is endemic among a number. In the latter I would include my own tendency to rise to the bait. Justin talk 23:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I fully agree with you Justin, I spent some time with most of the editors who regularly work on the Gibraltar articles over the course of the mediation, and I think I saw nationalist behavior come up from everyone now and then. My biggest concern is this... You acknowledge that labeling editors along nationalist lines is a problem. Cremarella certainly does. Imalbornoz seems to as well, from what I see on Talk:Gibraltar. I'm not sure about Ecemaml right now. But Gibnews doesn't seem to be acknowledging it. That's what has me concerned, not that Gibnews is doing what he's doing, but that he doesn't see what's wrong with what he's doing. -- Atama頭 02:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:DegenFarang ignoring tendentious editing warnings

    A prior ANI complaint illustrated this editors histor of tendatious editing, including vandalizing BLP articles and Wikihounding. He was then giving a final warning, and then another warning and then a "last warning". To this he responded he would only obey Wikipedia rule which is he would be ignoring all rules. He editionally mocked all policy and guidelines and made up his own. He recieved "final warnings" for his previous BLP vandalizing here and here. He has recieved about five "final warnings" in total, yet he is allowed to continue his slash and burn editing. Today he as violated 3RR and has made a [Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Steve_Badger second OUTING] abusive attack at me, as well as inappropriately editting that article. Enough is enough. User:DegenFarang and his IP should be blocked permanently, immediately. It is a complete mockery that he has ignored numerous final warnings and continues to act far beyond anything acceptable to the Wikipedia comunity. 2005 (talk) 00:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Canvass much ? Arkon (talk) 01:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I will not dignify this with a response, other than to say I reported 2005 for edit warring prior to this posting - and to say that this all stems from my editing a likely autobiographical article full of un sourced info, self-published external link spam and peacock terms DegenFarang (talk) 01:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Degen did get warned for tendentious commentary and for wikilawyering about WP:IAR (see my talk page). I warned him. User:2005 has a history of canvassing and was also warned about that. While the post to my page & Ed's could be considered appropriate as we both warned Degen [6] - there is maybe a wider WP:CANVAS issue here.
      I suggest a caution be issued to both Users to disengage from anything to do with the other. Both editors are edit warring and both should be blocked even though they technically have not broken 3RR - they have broken it's spirit and are both engaged in tit-for-tat pointy WP:AN3 posts. Additional Degen was reported for a separate 3RR issue by another user today
      Suggesting 36hour blocks for both if this behaviour continues--Cailil talk 01:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That advice echoes my own advice given privately to an editor asking what should be done about these two editors. Just stay away from each other. I don't see either one being particularly disruptive except when in conflict with each other, so like vinegar and baking soda they should stay apart. The problem is that both have an interest in the same subject (poker) so it can be difficult, but it should be possible as long as they don't do the following:
    1. Contact one another.
    2. Talk about the other person either on talk pages (article or user) or noticeboards.
    3. Revert each other or remove each other's content.
    Just pretend that the other person doesn't exist. Forget about reporting the other person for spamming, or civility breaches, or BLP violations, etc. If the other person is misbehaving, let someone else take care of it. -- Atama頭 20:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    While in general I agree, Degen has exhibitted tendentious and pointy behaviour and is continuing to be uncivil and generally combative in his communications with sysops who are attempting to help him. He's also attempting to rules-lawyer using WP:IAR--Cailil talk 21:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Block of User:RMHED

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
    As there appears to be overwhelming support for this block, there is no reason to continue piling on. RMHED has the necessary avenues for appealing the block should he wish to do so. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


    RMHED (talk · contribs) was provisionally unbanned by BASC in late September. Since then, he has engaged in disruptive activity that has led to a series of subsequent blocks for incivility, personal attacks, inappropriate behavior, and trolling. More recently, he has blatantly violated WP:POINT by seeking some sort of revenge against another editor. As a result, I issued this user a final warning, and his response indicated that he doesn't understand why his actions are disruptive. As such, I have indefinitely blocked him. I am posting here to alert the community of my actions and to ensure that they are not considered excessive. –Juliancolton | Talk 01:16, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Support: RMHED is a classic example of "the wasp at the picnic" who appears to consider erudition to be superior to negotiation or civility. Providing good content here is not unique to a handful of editors, nor confers immunity from sanbtions, as previous disruptive editors have found to their cost. Time after time, RMHED has been brought here, and elsewhere, has been multiply blocked and has perpetually failed to behave in a collegiate manner- and even if he's objectively correct, he's conspicuously failed to have that view accepted. Enough. Rodhullandemu 01:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support, although I usually use "fly in the ointment". RMHED could be a good editor if he wasn't so RMHED about it :P. He's been blocked countless times, without understanding that we won't tolerate what he's doing (possibly because we keep tolerating it). He's exhausted all his chances, as far as I'm concerned. Ironholds (talk) 01:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support - RMHED has also been mildly disruptive at other RfA/Bs. See here, here, here, here, here, here... And those are just recent ones. Though he does amuse me on occasion, I think that a block isn't a bad thing. -- Atama頭 01:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support. Otherwise, where's the end of the line for someone like this? Şłџğģő 01:39, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Strongest Possible Support All of his disruptive activity makes me wonder why he was unbanned in the first place. The Thing Vandalize me 01:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support. When I saw RMHED's comments earlier today in Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Useight 3, I thought there were so obviously over the line as to merit an immediate block right then and there; the revenge diff[7] only made it worse. In view of the long history of disruption and apparent unwillingness to reform, an indef block was very much in order. Nsk92 (talk) 01:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Strongly endorse. This behavior had to come to an end at some point. RMHED has used up his "chances", and since being unbanned, has consistently embodied "disruptive" in every sense of the word. JamieS93 01:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Strongly endorse, beneficial, with no loss to the project. Should remain blocked. –blurpeace (talk) 01:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support - While I am reluctant to comment given that I was the user who removed his remarks at useight's RfB with a less than cordial edit summary. Even still, I've seen nothing but absolute incivility and trolling from this user. Wisdom89 (T / C) 01:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support - I never quite understood why he remained unbanned all this time; RMHED acts like Wikipedia is his playground, we are his toys, and he has nothing to lose. Constantly skirting (and crossing) the edges of policies and guidelines for personal amusement is disruptive. Would have been an amazing gadfly against entrenched wiki-bureaucracy if he cared to be, but sadly he did not. -kotra (talk) 02:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support block, oppose indef. Perhaps a little mentoring is needed? (If not then just ignore this)--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I stand ready to be a mentor to RMHED if that is what's needed. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    In that case. I Support the proposed mentorship of RHHED. As long as he himslef agrees that is.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    and you seriously think ChildofMidnight would be an appropriate mentor? Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodhullandemu (talk • contribs)
    What evidence do we have that Baconfat will respond positively to mentoring? There are several diffs right up there indicating he is an irredeemable troll. Şłџğģő 02:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Why not? CoM is a competent person. While he made some mistakes in the past, he's no idiot. He'll do fine. 2. If you never try then you'll never know. Give him a chance (yes I know he has had a second chance before)--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    From the many mentorings I've seen on en.WP, the mentoree almost always winds up reblocked but the mentor learns a lot. Gwen Gale (talk) 02:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) I'll just say this: ChildofMidnight, as an editor, is not without conflict, and struggle as I might to WP:AGF, I would prefer to see some terms and conditions laid out for both parties to this arrangement. Rodhullandemu 02:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not trying to be cruel here, but "a second chance?" Do you know how to count? Şłџğģő 02:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    When RMHED was provisionally unbanned in September, he was given three mentors, all experienced WP users. Obviously that has not helped. Apart from the current incident, there were two other blocks for disruption between Sept 20 and now. I would say he has used up his second and third chances already. Nsk92 (talk) 02:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry people. Just trying to save him from a terrible fate....--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I did duck out of mentorship when we were fellow candidates for ArbCom, for obvious reasons.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support with regrets for the block. Mentorship isn't a panacea. RMHED can contribute productively when he chooses to, but blanking a civil oppose at an RFA is a direct challenge to how our website operates. This is someone who only recently received a provisional unban. Durova403 02:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    He can't choose to if he can't edit now can he? So how can he be unblocked? No since loseing another editor (even if he is disruptive). Can't people change?--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That depends on how many chances you're prepared to give; tell me, how many has RMHED had already? Rodhullandemu 02:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Alot less than Vintagekit's. I just thought that something good could come out of this, that's all.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    To reiterate, and to answer your question at the end there: Fuck no. Şłџğģő 02:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    There's an RFA candidate with more blocks than him.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:39, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    So? Şłџğģő 02:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    your right, just forget everything I said.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    "Mine's bigger than yours" is never a valid argument. The person currently at RfA has not exhausted the community's trust in the way RMHED has; tell me, how many of that user's blocks are indefs? Ironholds (talk) 03:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak Support He does deserve to get banned, but until the thirst for disruption goes away, he'll just keep on making socks and being a nuisance. Better to just revert everything he does and not feed any drama to his trolling. Doc Quintana (talk) 03:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I assume that this is an "indefinite until the problem is unlikley to reassert itself" rather than "indef seeking for a ban"?--Tznkai (talk) 03:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't understand your comment, but butting heads with the user will only make him angrier. Better just to not give him the attention he wants. Banning or not banning is irrelevant until that is solved.Doc Quintana (talk) 03:27, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - To be honest, I am not sure why the BASC unblocked him in the first place. Tiptoety talk 03:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Enough was enough. I wouldn't be opposed to the WP:Standard offer, but the disruptions RHMED has caused both recently and long-term, mean I beleive he needs to stay blocked for at least a while. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 04:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Editor is of no value to the project, and far too much time has been exerted discussing his problems. Cut the cord. Tarc (talk) 04:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I supported this users second chance and it did not take long to regret it. I was not surprised to see this thread. Chillum (Need help? Ask me) 04:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I had a feeling this was coming for quite a while - in fact, I'm surprised this discussion hasn't happened sooner. I'm not sure why ArbCom reversed the community-imposed ban like that - their authority should not override that of the community's in this regard, and a formal appeal should have been applied instead (or was it - either way, his unblock was widely opposed at the time). But that's ultimately beside the point - since his return to active editing, RMHED has done next-to-nothing even remotely helpful to the site (I've checked before), and has instead conducted himself in a manner reminiscent of a jester, making satirical remarks on numerous talk spaces that are often laden with pointy undertones, and are so incoherent that they cannot be taken seriously as anything other than blatant trolling. The only slight redeeming factor in this case is, I actually like his sense of humour. But the fact remains, he has proven that he is not a fit for this site. Wikipedia needs editors, it needs vandal fighters, it needs administrators - but it does not need satirizing jesters. Master&Expert (Talk) 05:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • RMHED has been playing games and hovering on the brink of a block or topic ban for some time. The block is appropriate and should remian in place until there is some acknowledgement of, and commitment to reforming, the issues identified above. He's quite capable of doing that any time and I would obviously support a conditional unblock when suitable assurances are in place. Guy (Help!) 08:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong Support. RHMED's latest antics aren't so bad in themselves, but these are just the latest shenanigans in a long history of what is pretty blatant trolling. If RHMED had any point to make I might be a little more forgiving, but causing disruption seems to be the only aim. Not useful to the project, so get rid of him. Lankiveil (speak to me) 08:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC).[reply]
    • Oppose without date certain RMHED is, at best, "colorful", and certainly can act a bit odd (yes, I saw his work at Daily Mail), but I continue to oppose indefinite blocks as being quite inutile at best, and Drsaconian at worst. Collect (talk) 11:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Abstain As the candidate in one of the recent WP:RFAs that he has targetted (as Mr. Baconfat), I would not want to sound like "sour grapes" towards my first oppose. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:01, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong Support perfect example of the dangers of giving too many "last chances". Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support As others have mentioned, the latest nonsense isn't so bad in itself, but taken with the rest of RMHED's history, this is a necessary end. Look at all the time and energy spent trying to convince him to behave in a civil manner, all for naught. Sorry, but the net value of his presence here is in the red. —DoRD (talk) 15:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Shared user account with COI issues

    User:Etrangere is having issues with a BLP they (yes, plural, he/she and subject of article) created, L. Cedeño, including a possible COI, and personal attacks on another user,[8] claiming that User:Fastily was being a vandal by deleting an image (not certain what image).

    At this point, User:Etranger has admitted that they are allowing the subject of the L. Cedeño article to edit the article from User:Etranger's account.

    "During the course of the discussion about the article I have been in contact with him and today while going over the issues at hand he entered information through my account that we both thought would alleviate the questions. It would appear that the information (permission to use a photo) created more confusion as it now seems the community believes I am the author and the subject."[9]

    A single purpose account[10] has turned up to edit the article, and question why User:Etranger is blanking the article.

    Anyway, no specific board or warning for shared accounts, but it seems that an administrator could inform the user of the policy. --IP69.226.103.13 | Talk about me. 02:03, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    FALSE: While it is true that I am having issues with an article that I wrote I have not "attacked" anyone nor am I sharing my account. Any administrator is welcome to log into my account and check. What I was trying to express was - the person who is the subject of the article I was writing was here - at my physical location - and present during the point at which the photo of them came into question with regard to permissions. I asked the person to validate that I had permissions - and they simply typed into the DESCRIPTION area of the photo that they (L. Cedeño) were the person in the photo - and that they created the image and granted rights to use the photo.

    As for why I blanked the article? It's because various people have insisted that the article is not in keeping with Wiki policies. I don't think that is the case but I'd like to straighten out this tangle of problems before posting something that has not been cleared.

    This is beginning to become a bit of a witch hunt.

    Please advise me as to how to resolve this without further problems.

    Thanks

    Etrangere (talk) 04:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, admins can't do that, so that is out. Etrangere, can you assure us that no one but yourself is using your account or has knowledge of your password?--Wehwalt (talk) 05:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I've listed these two pages authored by Etrangere for deletion.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Help with User

    I am having difficulty trying to calm down User talk:Dropmeoff at the article Mestizo, its talk page, and my talk page. He has insulted me, and accused me of many things, while using terms such as "Pro-European racial ideology", "Stormfront.org", etc. I believe we need someone to moderate, because he insists on inserting questionable and sensitive information in the articlres, which is very POV. Thank you for the help. C.Kent87 (talk) 05:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Building on this thread, I would ask C.Kent87 if User:Chris Iz Cali (consult sockpuppets of C.Kent87) is your new sock puppet because it seems very coincidental that both do very similar issues to increase the percentage of whites in Mexico [11], manipulation of sources [12][13] and violating 3rv [14]. Another coincidence is the name of your previous sock puppet User:Cali567 and I presume is his new sock puppet User:Chris Iz Cali, or not?. Ccrazymann (talk) 06:57, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Ccrazyman, you can ask an Admin. to check the IP addresses, and you will see that our IPs are not the same. It is a known strategy to accuse others so that you may continue to vandalize, but really, enough. C.Kent87 (talk) 07:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Chummer, administrators do not have access to that kind of info; only checkusers do. Having said that, Ccrazyman, either file a SPI about this or shut up about it. —Jeremy (v^_^v Boribori!) 07:07, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Just seems odd to me so much coincidence. Ccrazymann (talk) 07:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Then file a fragging SPI and stop using AN/I as a surrogate. Most admins here are not gonna be able to help you (especially if you keep spewing accusations); a CU will. Get thee to WP:SPI; stop blathering here. —Jeremy (v^_^v Boribori!) 07:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Jéské, would you ever take a chill-pill or something. That's three times in the last few mins on ANI that you've just been downright rude, and esp. to relative newbs. Chill already - Alison ❤ 07:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Ccrazymann deserves every bit of it. He's terribly annoying. C.Kent87 (talk) 07:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I am surprised that an experienced user and old as Jeremy, react so angrily to a novice user like me, I find it worrying. Ccrazymann (talk) 07:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    He was a little off putting, and is probably regretting it now, but he made a valid suggestion about the SPI thing and where to request a checkuser. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 07:27, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, but his reaction only makes inexperienced users away from discussions like this, plus a lack of respect is telling me "stop blathering here". That can take as a personal attack and a clear lack the Civics. Ccrazymann (talk) 07:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, but his suggestion is valid. If you've strong suspicions regarding an editor abusively socking, you can gather your evidence and post a case over on WP:SPI for other admins/checkusers to look over - Alison ❤ 07:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Is it possible to get back to the original request (User:Ccrazymann, you may do whatever you'd like elsewhere). C.Kent87 (talk) 07:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User talk:Wiki Greek Basketball

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Talk page unprotected, then reprotected, email blocked. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Resolved
    Talk page unprotected by Mjroots and prevented from using email function by TBSDY. However, due to WP:SUICIDE, the user page has now been protected again.

    Wiki Greek Basketball (talk · contribs) has contacted me with the request to have his user talk page unprotected. This user was community-banned the other day and then had his talk page locked because he made comments mentioning suicide that led people to think he was mentally unstable. He now wishes to appeal his ban, and while I don't see this as particularly likely to succeed (and I understand the ban appeals subcommittee unblock-en list may already have turned him down), he certainly sounds stable and rational enough that those suicide concerns appear moot, so I see no strong reason to deny him the talk page further.

    He being a Greek user I'm not supposed to take action myself, so I'll ask here if anybody would grant him the favour. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    For the relevant discussions see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Wiki Greek Basketball. ~~ Phoe talk ~~ 08:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Has he offered any particular justification for unblocking his access to the talk page? In all honesty, this user has come up a lot recently and the community's consensus was pretty strong. No unblock request posted there could reasonably be acted upon by an administrator without at least first deferring to the community, and in that regard perhaps the appropriate course of action would be to open the request here, but I'll say flat out right now I personally see nothing to justify an unbanning simply for temporal reasons. Perhaps a few months from now, but not now. And, while I cannot speak on behalf of the community as a whole, if the community does in fact agree with me that it is too early to consider an unbanning, then I don't see a reason to unblock the talk page either based on the circumstances that led to that event. If there was any rationale on WGB's part, though, I think it should be noted. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 08:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    By the way thus far at least six admins/user have received an email with a request to unblock him, what in my eyes is a clear repetition of his previous behaviour and additionally suggests no change in his attitude. As he has done already with his notifications of bureaucrats, I would assume that he intends to sent this email to admins till such time as he has reached his aim. ~~ Phoe talk ~~ 09:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay. I have no dog in this fight, obviously; as far as I am concerned anybody is welcome to close this and consider the request denied, if people feel the consensus is clear. My own view is there's little harm in him having the talk page, where he can make requests and argue his case in a transparent way, which would take away the incentive for the e-mail admin shopping. But that's just my 2c. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That's why there's another checkbox in the block UI.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Allow the talk page access, on the strict understanding that it will be blocked again if the talk page is not used constructively. Mjroots (talk) 09:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)As per the discussion at ANI linked to above, I see no reason why this unblocking should be considered for at least a month or two (although probably nearer 6 months). As for the e-mails to admins, I have sent (through Wikipedia e-mail user) advice to WGB not to contact any more admins about this, as this will risk the loss of Wiki e-mail rights. I have also suggested that he reads the 'standard offer' carefully - and that a discussion regarding his unblocking will be initiated in time. I have also said that if he continues to contact admins about unblocking, he is risking the block going from indefinite (i.e. with no fixed time set) to infinite. Hopefully he will use common sense and refrain from emailing admins. I would support allowing him his talk page access back - if he is disruptive there again, then he can have it removed again - in which case he also loses access to Wikipedia mail as well -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 09:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I oppose, for now. The user has been repeatedly explained why his behavior was considered disruptive, yet, he has shown no sign of understanding. The reasoning of the user is that his mistake was to nominate himself at WP:RFA, when it was his attitude after being declined what was really considered disruptive. If he demonstrates an understanding of how the chain of events led to his blocking, I would support unprotecting his talk page. > RUL3R>trolling>vandalism 10:03, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support unblock of talk page. It is not onerous to allow WGB the opportunity to talk things through with any editor willing to help him understand where he stands and how he can restore his standing with the community, and I don't believe there is any compelling reason this should be done off-wiki. The disruption potential at his own talk page is contained, and talk page access can be removed again at the drop of a hat. MLauba (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I would like to know how many people he has contacted via email, as I have also been contacted. However, as he has been blocked and his user talk page protected, I guess that he took this course of action is not unreasonable. Perhaps we should unprotect his user page? Or is there an email address I'm not aware of that we can refer him to? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 10:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    That would be the unblock-en e-mail list. Apparently he's already tried that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Right then. I'm restricting his on-email wiki access as he already knew about that email address. More examples of disruption. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 11:55, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    He emailed me as well, before he was asked to stop. He claims he will abide by our 'site policies', but does he understand them? I guess I wouldn't oppose letting him use his talk page to convince us. Dougweller (talk) 11:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    He also e-mailed me, received on 18th at 18:22 hrs. System put the e-mail in my spam box . Mjroots (talk) 12:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I also received an e-mail from him a few days ago. Ucucha 13:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment—why don't we allow him use of his talkpage, but block email access? He's been effectively spamming tens of editors and (I think) most of the bureaucrats about this (talkpage-spammed all the bureaucrats, my mistake), despite being repeatedly turned down. If he has talkpage access, everything's open, so we can withdraw his ability to email. How's that sound? ╟─TreasuryTag►You may go away now.─╢ 11:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Support talk page unprotection. It will probably be several months before the consensus moves towards unblocking him completely, but I see no harm in restoring his access to his talk page- it's something we allow the most egregious vandals and trolls. Besides, it can be taken away again without any faff. HJMitchell You rang? 11:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've now unprotected WGBs talk page. The e-mail restriction can stay for now. Any abuse of the talk page by WGB and the privilege can be revoked by any admin without further ado. Mjroots (talk) 12:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Going by posts here and on his talk page one can see he's sent, at least, more than half a dozen emails to admins in the last day or so. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Gwen, I'm AGFing here - he knows that admins have the tools to unblock him, so as he couldn't leave messages on his talk page, he's contacting admins in the hope that one of them will. Hopefully, he'll read the messages on his talk page and realise that (a) he can post there now; (b) he won't be unblocked in the immediate future. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 14:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I emailed him to let him know. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 14:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I had previously blocked access to this page per WP:SUICIDE. No one a) thought to consult me or b) even brought up the reason it was protected. Excellent work, guys. Tan | 39 14:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Where did you note this? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 14:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    In the protection note and on the talk page, as one normally would. Here. Tan | 39 14:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't notice that... it looks like Gwen might have accidentally removed your suicide notice. I'm going to reprotect and restore your comment. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 14:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry but FPAS mentioned it in the very opening post to this thread, and also mentioned he believe the user to be stable, which very much influenced at least my vote to unblock the talk page. To this otherwise uninvolved administrator, it starts looking like we're playing bureaucratic games with the user. I don't think re-protecting the talk page is warranted at present. MLauba (talk) 14:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Start a straw poll to find consensus that this user is "stable", and I almost guarantee you it will fail. I don't think unprotecting the talk page was warranted. The bureaucratic game was to unprotect the talk page while keeping him blocked and disabling email; what was that for? This situation was handled appropriately until this thread. Tan | 39 14:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    All the more reason to keep that page protected. I think we should all cool it - nobody was playing a game over how to deal with this editor, indeed all I see is a desire to be fair towards him. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 14:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) I'm not being argumentative, but beyond the one mention he made when initially threatened with a block, has WGB made any other mentions of suicide? None of the messages that he sent me had any indication of such feelings - but as I'm not an admin, I've not heard from him recently. Has anyone had any further mentions? The reason I'm asking is, how long do we assume that he has suicidal feelings - as I say, none of the communications I've seen after that one have shown any indications. Also, with no talk page access and no e-mail access, how is WGB supposed to ask for the block to be lifted in the future? If he contacts ArbCom, they will look at the discussion here, and say that they can't lift it as it was a community decision, so it seems to me that he has no way of contacting anyone. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 14:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    From my communications from him, I also got the impression that the is no longer unstable. Ucucha 14:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) I'm neutral as to unprotecting the page. I'm not aware of any later threats and I see no need for leaving a link to a suicide counseling service on that talk page (if anything, I think it's unhelpful to both the user and the project). Gwen Gale (talk) 14:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)He has already sent an email to the the unblock address, and was denied. He won't be unblocked, at least not any time soon. I don't think there is a problem here. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 14:39, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think blocking + talk page protection + e-mail disabled is an excellent sock knitting system, hence the suggestion to unprotect the talk page. MLauba (talk) 14:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Was there consensus to change the block like this in the first place? I don't understand how an admin can change it with just 3 clear supports when there are opposes to it as well. Especially when this comes only about a week after his block and eventual unblock request (which was denied with consensus clearly against it). This is not the same as overturning another admin's decision. A wider discussion should take place before we try to change something that was decided by the community. What's the hurry? ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 15:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Only concern about the suicide threat. As always, I put my actions forward to the general admin community. If they were in error, please feel free to reverse. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 15:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    ChamalN, there were more supports than opposes when I allowed WGB access to his talk page. I thought I spelled it out clearly enough that allowing such access was a privilege and not a right and that abuse of the talk page would lead to it being re-blocked. If I made an error in my actions I apologise. Even admins can make a mistake! As with all my administrative actions, I'm open to reasonable discussion and persuasion if anyone feels that my action was not correct. I notice from the talk page history that WGB did not edit his talk page before the block was re-imposed. Mjroots (talk) 17:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    E-mail from WGB

    Here is the latest (you can see my first e-mail to him today, and my reply to his response to that):

    FW: Your emails to admins

    From: Phantomsteve
    Sent: 19 January 2010 18:48
    To: 'Apollo'
    Subject: RE: Your emails to admins

    WGB,

    Firstly: I cannot allow you to edit your user page. I am not an admin, as I've told you in the past.

    Secondly: You did threaten to kill yourself when you were first blocked. Guidelines normally indicate that the account of a person who does this is blocked, with no editing allowed to their talk page. No one has said that you threatened to kill yourself today - all of the references are to your previous threat

    Thirdly, your access to email through Wikipedia has been removed because you contacted multiple admins.

    Fourthly, no one is going to contact the police - you aren't threatening to kill yourself, so there is no cause for the police to be contacted with your location.

    READ the advice on your talk page.

    READ the standard offer.

    I see that you have done editing on other Wikipedias:
    - Catalan Wikipedia (ca.wikipedia.org) - 11 edits - last edit 10 April 2009
    - Croatian Wikipedia (hr.wikipedia.org) - 3 edits - last edit 5 April 2009
    - French Wikipedia (fr.wikipedia.org) - 27 edits - last edit 10 April 2009
    - Italian Wikipedia (it.wikipedia.org) - 18 edits - last edit 10 January 2010
    - Spanish Wikipedia (es.wikipedia.org) - 34 edits - last edit 5 April 2009

    I also see that you have an account on commons (commons.wikimedia.org), but that doesn't have any edits.

    If you go to one of the other Wikipedias (you are only blocked on the English one), you can sort out getting a Unified login (all the accounts will be linked) - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Unified_login#How_to_unify_your_accounts for details. (To see the list that I used to find your contributions, go to http://toolserver.org/~vvv/sulutil.php?user=Wiki+Greek+Basketball)

    If I was you, I would continue editing on the other Wikipedias (also, you can edit at the Greek Wikipedia at el.wikipedia.org) - your block is *only* on the English Wikipedia.

    Regards,
    Phantomsteve

    ________________________________

    From: Apollo
    Sent: 19 January 2010 17:36
    To: Phantomsteve
    Subject: Re: Your emails to admins

    Can you please allow me to edit my user talk page? They blocked my email and they still won't allow me access to my user talk page. Mjroots the admin granted me access to edit my talk page and then two other admin took it off and claimed I threatened to kill myself and that this gave them the right to permanently remove any access to my talk page.

    I did NOT do anything like that. How can they say I threatened to kill myself just today when that happened weeks ago? You know that this is not true and you know that they are lying and treating me unfairly and that they are abusing their positions as admin. Can you please give me back my user talk page access and tell them to stop saying I am threatening to kill myself when they are lying about it. If the police show up to my house because those admin made up a lie that I threatened suicide then I will take the proper procedures to deal with them.

    --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Phantomsteve wrote:

    From: Phantomsteve
    Subject: Your emails to admins
    To: "Wiki Greek Basketball"
    Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 3:18 AM

    I would strongly suggest that you stop sending e-mails to admins asking to be unblocked.

    This is for two reasons:

    Firstly, following the community discussion, no admin would even consider thinking about it for at least another month (if not longer - I'd probably say nearer to 6 months)

    Secondly, if you continue to e-mail admins, then you are risking losing your e-mail rights on Wikipedia. Should this happen, the only way in which you would be able to communicate would be to send an e-mail through normal e-mail systems (i.e. not through Wikipedia) to ArbCom - and they would not overturn a block so overwhelmingly backed by the community.

    My advice would be to read the 'standard offer' linked to on your talk page, and just wait. In time, a discussion will be restarted regarding your possible unblocking. If you continue to badger the admins, you will risk putting yourself in the position where your indefinite block (i.e. with no specific time scale) will become an infinite block (i.e. no chance of being unblocked).

    I hope that you will pay attention to this advice - it really is for you own good.

    If you choose to ignore it, then that is your right, but I think I am only saying what you have probably seen on ANI and on your talk page.

    Regards,

    Phantomsteve

    -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 18:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I think WGB's talk page (protected or not) is more fit for this now. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not an admin, so I can't put anything on WGB's talk page. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 19:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    What I should have said is, WGB is only forum shopping and trying to keep things stirred up. There's no need to post his emails here, but I know you're being helpful and I'd be startled if anyone thought otherwise. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    ...forum shopping much? -FASTILY (TALK) 00:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    An old friend?

    Something about Seregain (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) puts me in mind of an old friend.

    • Started a correctly formed AfD with their first edits
    • Start a campaign against another editor with only 200 edits under their belt.
    • Only 200 edits but has started two AfDs and is clearly well versed in policy and wikipedia debating styles and terms from edit one.
    • [15] also does not look like the kind of thing a new user would write within their first 200 edits.

    Does anyone kn ow what this user's original account was? I'm not going to believe this is a genuine newbie. Guy (Help!) 08:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Bosniak

    Bosniak (talk · contribs · logs · block log)

    User:Bosniak made a comment in the edit history of an article: "United States resolutions H.199 and S.134: here are both texts so Serb apologist cannot manipulate them anylonger".(Revision as of 02:05, 16 January 2010).

    On the talk page of User:Bosniak I asked what (s)he meant.[16]. The reply is uncivil.[17] If this user was not aware of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia there might be some excuse for it, but User:Bosniak is already listed in the Enforcement section. As the attack is against me, I would appreciate it if another administrator would deal with it. -- PBS (talk) 09:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Bosniak has already been topic banned twice for this. The last one was for 6 months. Maybe another year off is needed? Mjroots (talk) 09:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    This appears to be sufficiently straightforward ethno-religious WP:BATTLE conduct that no WP:AE thread is needed. Per WP:ARBMAC#March 2008 - May 2008, Bosniak (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is already indefinitely topicbanned from Kosovo (to which he reacted with ban and block evasion, according to the enforcement log). Impressive block log, too. Unless other admins object, I'll extend that topic ban to all of the Balkans per WP:ARBMAC#Discretionary sanctions. I am also notifying Bosniak of this thread.  Sandstein  12:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Quite. Because of his continued, long-term misuse of Wikipedia for advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle, which is prohibited (WP:ARBMAC#Purpose of Wikipedia), Bosniak (talk · contribs) is hereby indefinitely banned, under the authority of WP:ARBMAC#Discretionary sanctions, from the topic of the Balkans, broadly construed. For the avoidance of doubt, this ban covers edits to all pages, discussions and other content related to the topic (such as Balkans-related content in pages that are not themselves related to the Balkans). He is also reminded that any infringement of that ban, or any continued disruptive behavior, may lead to an indefinite block without further warning. This sanction may be appealed as described at WP:ARBMAC#Appeal of discretionary sanctions.  Sandstein  06:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:David Steele Searacer

    User:David Steele Searacer seems determined to create an article about himself. He has created David Steele (Searacer) and David Steele Searacer, both of which have been deleted, and has now created David Steele Searacer again. However, this is not the reason why I am posting here. He has repeatedly moved his user talk elsewhere: first he moved it to David Steele (Searacer), and I copied the material back to User talk:David Steele Searacer. Now he has moved User talk:David Steele Searacer to Talk:David Steele Searacer. I believe it is important for the history of the user talk page to remain intact, because it contains a record of warnings and other messages which may be relevant in future considerations of this editor's behaviour. I can, of course, simply copy the material back to his user talk page, as I did before. However, I see two reasons why this would not be a perfect solution: (1) it would not maintain the proper history, and (2) since he has now moved his user talk page twice it looks as though he may be prepared to continue to do so, and a futile edit war over this issue would not be desirable. I wonder whether it is possible for an administrator to restore the full edit history of the user talk page, and there may also be a point in someone other than me contacting the editor and explaining why moving his user talk page in this way is problematic. I have done my best, but to no avail. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I now see that User:Redvers has merged Talk:David Steele Searacer back to User talk:David Steele Searacer. Whether this was done in response to my post above or independently I cannot tell, but anyway it is done. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Thehairybananasling on Obama bio

    This user (a troll?) posted this. [18]. Can something be done to prevent this person from doing it again? Thanks. Malke2010 16:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    For reference the correct name is Thehairybananasling (talk · contribs). I had already reverted and given this user a level 2 vandalism warning with an additional note about altering peoples talk page posts. As it's the only contribution i'm not sure that additional steps need to be taken unless more contributions follow.--Cube lurker (talk) 16:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) Okay, Thanks, Malke2010 16:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Isn't the Obama article along with its talk page under protection from vandals?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Seems like protection is off. Can someone put it back if so?Malke2010 16:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The article is semi-protected, the talk page is not. This edit was to the talk page. Protecting the talk page completely cuts off even good faith input by non-confirmed editors and shouldn't be done lightly.--Cube lurker (talk) 16:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Barack Obama is semi-protected, which prevents edits by new and unregistered users. The talk page is not protected, nor should it be unless it is vandalized extremely often.  Sandstein  16:53, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict):::::See that, very good, Danke.Malke2010 18:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Did not know about user name vios. Good point. I do feel that anyone coming on saying such things is demonstrating that he/she does not wish to be part of the wikipedia community and should be shown the door, but this is a process.Malke2010 18:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (EC) Probably at least borderline. Just to be clear I have no expectations of watching FA's flow out of this account. I'm also not sure it's any different then the dozens of other one time vandal accounts that pop up weekly.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, if s/he comes back, then could it be blocked? Because, presumably the block is for that computer/IP where the edits are coming from?Malke2010 18:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Mikal

    Resolved
     – matter is in hand Rodhullandemu 17:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi there. There is an ongoing dispute over at Mikal, which appears to be the name of two separate musicians--one from the U.S., and the other from the UK. Editors are fully replacing content in favour of one musician or the other. The most recent articles for both are: UK and US. Both of these articles have notability issues. In order to address both of them, some disambig is in order, but I think it goes beyond my capabilities as an editor. My best guess for a solution is to create a redirect from Mikal to Mikal (disambiguation), and create Mikal (American musician) and Mikal (UK musician) with appropriate content and edit histories. Thanks, Steamroller Assault (talk) 16:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

     Doing... This will need some work to split into separate articles, but the disambig need not be that complicated. Since the UK article was created first, I think that should be under the main title. Notability and sourcing can be addressed when the waters have cleared somewhat. Rodhullandemu 17:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
     Done I hadn't realised there was another Mikal - Michael Gurry, so have created the DAB page accordingly. I'll take a look at the content. No further admin action required here. Rodhullandemu 17:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Disruption at Public image of Barack Obama

    Resolved
     – Semi'd for a week by Fastily. —DoRD (talk) 02:16, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    There has been some IP-based disruption going on at Public image of Barack Obama over the last few days. Various soap-boxy edits have been made to this article (and one or two loosely related articles) by the following IPs (listed with example diffs):

    It seems clear that these IPs are related. What would be the best course of action? Is semi-protection of the article the way to go, or should I bring this up at WP:SPI? -- Scjessey (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Since they're all Bell Canada addresses, it appears likely that they're the same person, so I'm not sure what else could be done at SPI. SProt, on the other hand, would hopefully stop it long enough for them to get bored with it. —DoRD (talk) 17:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Public image of Barack Obama semi-protected for a week. -FASTILY (TALK) 00:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Just realized it's going to be a loooong week, though. —DoRD (talk) 02:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Issue with userpage

    Closing Discussion for obvious reasons. -FASTILY (TALK) 00:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

    Hi, a user named Blackmagic1234 (talk · contribs) that used to be my friend in real life posted about me on his userpage in the enemies section. Even though he put the initials R.S., I know that it is me because my name has the initials R.S. and though he won't speak to me about it, I find this offensive since he posted this on here. I hope that something can be done about this, please have him remove it, as it is offenseive. Queen_kitten 17:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Queen kitten (talk • contribs) [reply]

    Wikipedia is defiantly not the right place for this user to list their "enemies". I'll ask them to remove the section from their user page. Best, - Kingpin13 (talk) 17:53, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    No need, I've removed the offending section. Mjroots (talk) 17:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Blackmagic1234 has been informed of this thread. I can understand Queen kitten not notifying him in this case. The offending material has been removed and Blackmagic1234 has been warned not to reinsert it. Mjroots (talk) 17:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • sigh* I had just written out a message but got an edit conflict :D. I'd kinda hoped that Blackmagic would remove the section them self, but we'll see how this goes I guess. Thanks for dealing with the PA Mjroots :) - Kingpin13 (talk) 18:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't matter I'm through with this —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackmagic1234 (talk • contribs) 18:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Marking as resolved. Warning has been removed, which means it has been read and understood. No further action required unless offence is repeated. Mjroots (talk) 18:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (un-marking as resolved) Can a CheckUser make a run through these two accounts? I have a feeling a certain banned user is trying to disrupt again. –MuZemike 18:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    why don't you usercheck Queen kitten And RubyGloomFan >.> oh wait add 142.162.12.185 to that to <.< —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackmagic1234 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I made the account RubyGloomFan since I was going to start using that one. For some reason I started to have a stalker on here(a user that I didn't know)reverting my edits, so I was going to make another account. Also Discussion pages for articles are about the articles, not when the show will end. And while we're on the topic of Sockpuppets, why don't you usercheck Blackmagic1234 and Higgys? Higgys was an account created back in May that attacked an old account I had(Kagome_77), and the user said stuff only Blackmagic1234 would know about. I have had to make and get rid of a few accounts for issues like this, and I'm sick of it. I stopped editing Wikipedia for a couple of months, and came back and started only editing a few articles, not as many as I was editing. I am officially sick of the garbage that has been going on here. Not only is there harassment in real life, but also on THIS SITE of all places. This is ridiculous. Queen_kitten 19:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Queen kitten (talk • contribs)

    Don't bother checkuser. I'm FINISHED with this site. It's users like Blackmagic1234 that make me sick. On an old account I had, I was harassed by someone that didn't even know me, named Soul Phire. I had quit for a while because I didn't realize that I could report them for "hounding." What made it even worse, AussieLegend started a discussion on me on Soul Phire's page saying how I don't disucss edits with other users. I was not asked to, so why should I have? Anyway, it's because of this crap that I'm officially done. Congratulations, Blackmagic1234, you have just put the icing on the cake of my decision to quit here for good. Why don't you take a bow. Queen_kitten 19:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Queen kitten (talk • contribs)

    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


    Banned user returns?

    Resolved
     – Sockpuppet indefinitely blocked. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    A newly created account, HomolkaTheAllKnowing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), is posting personal attacks against other editors on Talk:Neil Gaiman.[19][20] The language and conduct of this editor is identical to that of an indefinitely blocked account, EchoofReason (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), which turned out to be a sock of a banned editor ColScott (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive526#Block review, sockpuppet? for previous discussions on this user. I recommend blocking HomolkaTheAllKnowing and doing a checkuser run on the account, as per the previous discussion, since this user has had a habit of abusing multiple accounts. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:01, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    IMHO, that's a pretty blatant sock-puppeting. You would think after several bans he would've figured out that his 'DO NO HARM' verbal tic would be something to suppress. --Gwern (contribs) 18:18 19 January 2010 (GMT)
    You had it posted here before I saw any of the discussion, but I agree it seems pretty obvious. Has a new SPI case been opened, or is it just here? Having run afoul of him before, I hesitate to step in here. LadyofShalott 19:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It's so obvious I didn't think it was worth filing an SPI case. This should be a block on sight case. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    And the sockpuppet has now confirmed that it's ColScott again. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Probios and hoax article strumus

    Probios (talk · contribs) has created a new article called strumus, which purports to be about a part of the brain. As a neuroscientist, it was immediately obvious to me that the article is a hoax -- in addition to the "strumus", which does not exist, the article describes several other structures that don't exist, such as the "effluvium" and "trivium". I prodded the article and chastised the editor, who responded by removing the prod and claiming that a certain anatomy book describes these things. I don't have access to that book, but it doesn't really matter, none of this stuff exists. Probios has been around since 2007 but edits rarely; his talk page shows a history of vandalism and creation of bogus articles. Looie496 (talk) 18:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I suggest immediate indefblock or permaban. Kittybrewster ☎ 19:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    - First of all, I have done a shitload of work for wiki (en. and fi.), although I haven't always been logged in so that some others could see this. Second, I'm also a neuroscientist and I do have this book about the human brain that describes this region at its glossary, check it if in doubt. The book has been reviewed and according to it, did not have flawed information.
    Third, my record of "vandalism" is based on an article about a black metal artist that -according to the first rumors that circulated @ IRC- was declared dead. I added this to wiki (erroneously?) thinking that a rapid response to events would be better than a slow and more certain one, even though it would be proven wrong at a later time point because this erroneous information would in that case exist only for a short period of time. If this would be proven to be the case -I thought- I would delete my edition. Before I had the time to do this, it was deleted by a black metal fan who gave me the "last warning". I have thereafter learned my lesson and refrained from updating wiki this way. OK, then the "bogus articles"... First one was about a physical theory that had hundreds of references at the journal of chaos, solitons and fractals. While the theory was new and suspiciously revolutionary (making the inventor a star at Egypt), I thought that it needed to be mentioned @ wiki. It was only later when the inventor of this theory was discredited as being the chief editor at the same journal and thus got his articles through without peer-review. However I still think that E-infinity theory should be mentioned here since there will be hundreds of future researchers who will be looking at these articles and should have a wiki-article to refer to. It should discredit the inventor but cite the ideas with the articles so that one could try to seek useful leads. The second "bogus article" was about a fictional virus during the H5N1 outbreak. It clearly stated that the virus in question was fictional and nothing else. I made it after a google search which revealed that some people believed the virus to be real. I just wanted to ease their stress by giving the facts.
    Bottom line is that -according to a legitimate and accurate neuroscience book that I cited- strumus is a real, rarely mentioned region in the primate brain and that I edit wiki with only benevolent wishes. If Looie496 doesn't know about this region, he should read more and try to delete less. I hope this was enough to clear my record and prove that the article about strumus should not be deleted. Probios (talk) 20:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


    - Update: the article has been deleted by Mjroots (details below). I propose that he would be corrected for this and the article restored, if possible. I can also write it again if I will be guaranteed that this ignorant act will not happen again. Strumus is so rarely mentioned in the literature nowadays that the wiki article could prove to be the only source of information about this possibly important structure of the human brain that is related to higher cortical functions.Probios (talk) 20:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    19:08, 19 January 2010 Mjroots (talk | contribs) deleted "Strumus" ‎ (G3: Blatant hoax)

    Probios has asked that the article be undeleted (I deleted it as a hoax). A Yahoo search for "strumus" + "brain" doesn't produce much to support the article being genuine. If any other admin thinks the article should be undeleted or userfied then I've no objection. Mjroots (talk) 20:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Re Probios's statement of intention to recreate the article, should the title be salted to prevent this while we deal with the issue? Alternative is to undelete and then AfD the article, salting if consensus is to delete. Mjroots (talk) 20:53, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The index of the fourth edition of the Nolte book that Probios claims to be his source is avaliable for view at Amazon (click on the cover image), and, contrary to Probios's assertion, there is no entry "Strumus" in that index. (Nor is there an entry for "effluvium" or "trivium".) Deor (talk) 20:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I claimed that the source would be the 6th edition @ the article. Also, I mentioned "glossary", not "index". Surely you understand the difference? If "yes", what's the problem, Deor? I have the 5th edition at my lap. Strumus can be found at the page 625.Probios (talk) 21:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I find it very hard to believe that a word would be entered in the glossary and excluded from the index, since textbooks' glossaries normally include only words used in the body of the texts themselves, which would as a matter of course be indexed as well. I also find it hard to believe that the fourth and sixth editions differ so substantially. But as this is the administrators' noticeboard, I'll leave the matter to them. Deor (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    - I wouldn't add the article before it is approved. I think it should be undeleted since this talk is still ongoing. You were too hasty, Mjroots. Please refer to the actual reference for the actual proof. Probios (talk) 20:57, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Probius, it sounds to me like you need to stop creating articles on the basis of hearsay or single sources. Wait until you've got coverage in multiple, reliable, secondary sources before starting an article - and don't declare people dead because "I heard it on IRC". Try re-reading WP:V, WP:N and WP:RS. Fences&Windows 21:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, nice that you cared to join in and oppose the article and make me look ridiculous. As I said earlier, I have learned my lesson. Also, you shouldn't start to talk about things that you don't even know. I assume that you didn't have the time to check the validity of the information stated at the article before it got deleted. Probios (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    - I have now sent an email to John Nolte, the author of the book that I cited. I also gave him a link to this discussion. Please restore the article for now and wait a while. Probios (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The really curious thing is that Probios has actually made a number of useful and perfectly correct edits to neuroscience articles over the months. It's unusual for a good editor to go off the rails like this; I don't understand it. But one way or another, there's no doubt that the "strumus" article was bogus from top to bottom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Looie496 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd like to put in a word in Probios's defense here. A hoax is a deliberate attempt at creating misinformation on Wikipedia. I don't think Probios did this, I think this was "jumping the gun" and writing an article based on a single source. It's just a mistake, and I don't want Probios to think that we're ganging up on him for it. On the other hand, I don't know what good the author of the book will do for us. Another source for the info is what we'd want, not more from the original source. -- Atama頭 22:19, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no intentions to write bogus articles, or any misinformation for that matter. I really do believe that John Nolte wrote about an existing brain structure, even though it is not mentioned in the internet (excluding a Spanish translation of the glossary at a textbook). One possibility for this lack of info is that the structure has an alternative name, for example something that is not in Latin. Other reasons could be that the structure is included into some nearby region or is just so small and so obscure by function that it hasn't been studied much. If the article would be restored for a while, I could try to get Nolte to add his references to it, or give them to me. Active researchers usually reply within a day if the question is relevant and needs an answer. I think he could feel that it is his duty as the writer to straighten this fact out, but the references can be a hard to collect (as I feel as an owner of some 10000+ articles). Therefore, I anticipate that this question about the validity of the article would be resolved within a week or so; if not, I would not object the deletion of the article. Probios (talk) 22:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, this continues to get weirder. I finally found the term, using Google Books, in a Spanish translation of the Nolte book. My Spanish isn't quite good enough to let me pin down the part of the brain in question, though -- but I'll keep trying. Looie496 (talk) 22:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (multiple ec) This is a very odd circumstance. Looking at the deleted article, my immediate instinct (as a biologist with an interest in neurological disorders) was that it was a well-written hoax. (Trivium? Part of the brain? Really? Cute.) On further investigation, Fences and Windows has found a putative Spanish translation of the textbook in question, which seems to actually contain exactly the content indicated: Google Books link. While my Spanish is quite rough, it is readily apparent that our article and that Spanish translation came from identically-worded sources. In other words, it is possible that this article is not a hoax, and is instead a word-for-word copyright violation. Either way, of course, Probios has some explaining to do.
    Unfortunately, there seems to be no English-language source with employs these terms in the context of the brain anywhere in the scientific literature. For that matter, I can't find any other sources in any language which use these terms for portions of brain anatomy. Someone somewhere has screwed up badly, but I really can't tease out where. I would be very hesitant to recreate this article (with any content) unless it can be sourced more thoroughly than this. I am also inclined, unfortunately, to recommend a more thorough examination of Probios' contributions, as it would appear that the content here was not his own work. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I can add that I had a look into the German medical dictionaries of my sister and found neither of the two terms, so if they're not hoaxes, they only could be local translations. ~~ Phoe talk ~~ 23:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The simplest explanation is that it is a back-translation from the Spanish version, keeping all the Spanish terminology. Unfortunately the part of the brain in question is very complicated, and I can't quite figure out exactly what the "strumus" is supposed to be. Looie496 (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    - OK, I got an answer from Nolte:
    Sorry to have gotten you into this heated conversation, but strumus, effluvium, and trivium are all lame attempts at neuroanatomical humor. Most readers don't notice the strumus, but once a year or so I get an email from a medical student someplace in the world asking about it.
    I added the text at almost word-for-word accuracy as it seemed so strange, I didn't find any information about it, and yet it existed at the glossary of a respected neuroscience book. I'm sorry that I took your time.
    You can search my other texts for copyright violations all you want. The only time I have copy-pasted stuff was when I included (and cited) info about the inventor of E-infinity theory from his own page, and this has been deleted long ago. Probios (talk) 23:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    So, it appears that this is indeed a hoax, not perpetrated by Probios, but upon Probios. —DoRD (talk) 23:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Urghh. I think Nolte deserves a good trouting for this one. Glad it's finally cleared up, though. Trying to make sense of the Spanish was driving me crazy -- the location it seemed to be describing for the strumus doesn't contain anything except empty space. Looie496 (talk) 00:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with the Nolte trouting, but I suggest that Probios is also in need of the same treatment. Probios, you are strongly cautioned to not create or change articles in the future unless you have verifiable sources. Okay? —DoRD (talk) 02:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Suaveart redux

    User agreed to mentorship, but has apparently not taken it very seriously[21][22] and continues to be disruptive.

    SA continues to violate the WP:NPA policy:

    • here, in which he apparently uses a crystal ball or some kind of mind-reading to determine my motivations for a deletion nomination, points out my religious beliefs for no good reason than to assume bad faith, once again brings up my first edit as if something sinister about my editing can be gleaned from it, blatantly lies about my editing of the Ken Ham article, and uses the edit summary "bad faith AFD started by evangelical POV pusher."
    • here, in which he uses scare quotes to not-so-subtly imply that I am not a "True EditorTM."
    • here, in which he again attacks my religious beliefs and uses them to imply my editing has some sort of sinister bent.

    Note: SA has engaged in these personal attacks against editors based upon their religious beliefs for weeks.

    SA improperly removed my comments to an AfD discussion:

    • here, with the summary of "rvmd disruptive, libelous comment with doesn't belong in AFD and is unverified"
    • here, with the edit summary of "rmvd inappropriate comment - Jack Chick's "Christian Porn" is totally irrelevent to this AFD" (note that the edit also conveniently deletes a personal attack)

    All while engaging in his own inappropriate, disruptive and libelous comments, ironically enough.

    SA edits improperly:

    • here, in which his edits had to be reverted for violating WP:RS (and he subsequently called it a "mistake")
    • here, in which he continues to insist on re-inserting material irrelevant to a person's biography

    SA has recently made a habit of targeting my edits recently under the guise of "fighting evangelical Christian fundamentalist spam" or whatever he calls it to give himself carte blanche to violate whatever guidelines and policies he wishes. I supported SA's mentorship and hoped he'd take it to heart, but that apparently isn't going to happen, particularly in light of these recent edits. SA has a serious chip on his shoulder that affects his edits here. Seregain (talk) 19:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Ive had my own run-ins with SA in the past. He has continuously nominated Userboxes for deletion in bad faith. And attacking those who vote "keep".--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 19:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Completely untrue dude. Your definition of "bad faith" is that if the AFDs failed, than I must have made them in bad faith (or else they would have succeeded). That's absurd. AFDs fail all the time - that doesn't mean that every one of them was started with some "sekret agenda", it just means that the voters disagreed with me, and I respect that.--SuaveArt (talk) 02:13, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    If you saw the last AN/I about him, you'll know his likely response to this one will be pages of attacks against myself instead of actually addressing his own behavior. Seregain (talk) 20:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The above posts are incorrect (as I explained in the earlier incident Seregain started) and are so juvenile that I'm not going to comment on them again.--SuaveArt (talk) 02:13, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Note: I have tried to assume good faith with SA's edits, but now that is kind of difficult to do, especially in light of things like this. Seregain (talk) 21:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Exactly. At this point he seems to be a WikiStalker with an evanglical Christian agenda. Here's a list of suspicious edits by Seregain that imply a fundamentalist Christian agenda (there have been others since then too, including his crazy AFD for the Skeptic's Annotated Bible).
    Please do not throw around terms like "WikiStalker." That's a personal attack. Really, you need to back off. You were close to being blocked for this behavior before. Auntie E. (talk) 04:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Dude, I'm not the one posting at length on other websites about people's behavior here. Seregain (talk) 05:19, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Is WP:EDITCOUNT a policy now? (Woah! That actually led somewhere. I had no idea when I typed it.) Anyway, AfD is a pretty simple process with clearly written instructions. Cutting and pasting is not difficult. Seregain (talk) 06:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    New issue: SA has more than once deleted others' good faith and relevant contributions and replaced them with his own. An example is here. Seregain (talk) 05:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    And then there's this, which has left me simply speechless. Seregain (talk) 05:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Unjustified deletion at article talk

    Resolved
     – Does not require administrator intervention

    an experienced editor, User: William M. Connolley is continually removing article talk page comments which relate to his conduct at that page. his removals of other editors' comments do not seem warranted. have no justification whatsoever. he has been warned repeatedly regarding his adherence to WP:CIVIL. please see this talk page diff. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    additional note: the deletion may have had good-faith reasons, as he was deleting his own comment as well. however i have restored another editor's comment there, so perhaps some outside review might be useful just to provide some objective advice. he has also repeatedly removed my comments from his own talk page. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    FYI, per WP:UP#CMT it is perfectly acceptable for users to remove comments from their own talk page. Also, William M. Connolley has now been notified of this thread. Ioeth (talk contribs twinkle friendly) 20:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This was article talk where William had been requested to remove his own response to an unhelpful comment – Sm8900 undid the removal without giving any reason in the edit summary,[23] so I undid that edit with the comment "unexplained restoration of contentious and apparently offtopic discussion". The statement "i have restored another editor's comment there" is misleading, as the restoration included William's comments which he had been requested to delete, with a strike through and additional comment. Per WP:TPO it can be in order to remove disruptive comments, though usually it's better to archive them. As the request to delete was to remove a contentious statement, I've compromised by redacting William M. Connolley's own remark, and suggest that the others consider removing their remarks. Telling someone to shut up after they write "please tell me to "shut up"." is rising to the bait and inappropriate, getting those who made them to remove the provocative remarks now that the response has been removed seems worthwhile. . . dave souza, talk 21:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I appreciate dave souza's response. I would just like to mention that his summation of the situation, though it may seem a bit convoluted at first glance, is actually a very comprehensive and accurate review of the facts. thanks for your willingness to address this matter, and to diligently review all of the facts relating to it. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 21:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Serious concerns about User:J.delanoy

    Resolved
     – I have blocked the IP per WP:DUCK. NW (Talk) 20:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    This user has apparently gone mad and is out of control on very random blocking sprees. For instance, in just the last few days alone, he has blocked countless accounts as "sockpuppets" of the same user. I see these bulk "checkuser blocks" very hard to take seriously for a number of reasons:

    1. Some of these accounts haven't edited in a month or more. 2. Many of these accounts suggest very diverse editing styles. 3. The compilation of "sockpuppets" mixes in sets of vandal accounts (ie. Red Pistons Force), with accounts that have made less than three unconstrucutive edits, with accounts that have been around for almost a year and even accounts that in only very few edits have shown nothing but good faith for the project:

    Special:Contributions/Classic_Clock Special:Contributions/Prince_of_English13

    And then a user only a month old that has made hundreds of good edits and has created more articles in a matter of a week or two than most long-time users EVER do. 2 of those articles featured on the main page this month as DYKs:

    Special:Contributions/Domestic_Cat

    To be honest, whatever the checkuser says, a bit more common sense would seem critical here. Am I the only one who thinks this looks more like a random collection of accounts (despite the quacking of the RPF accounts with each other, that suggest no link to the master) that J.delanoy has just gone "ready, aim, fire" to than a legitimate category of sockpuppets? Many of these accounts are just far too diverse to be linked to each other.

    And then there's even more problems. For instance, he takes the liberty to block a good faith contributor as a sockpuppet of MacotGuy:

    01:49, 19 January 2010 J.delanoy (talk | contribs) blocked Baseball1015 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (Abusing multiple accounts: MascotGuy)

    The user had to request unblock to get unblocked as a blantantly unrelated account. J.delanoy did later unblock the user, but only after other administrators realised what he was doing. Now, yet another innocent victim has the a J.delanoy block log stain. Who's next?

    A third issue is his dishonesty. He knew exactly who [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:J.delanoy#Any_connection_to_... User:Blocky cuzco] was and when his lying was exposed he reverted as vandlaism possibly to cover up his actions.

    Even assuming good faith there is just too much going on here to ignore. Note that this is merely a few selected examples of his recent behavoir. Soemthing must be done..--219.89.10.35 (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I smell someone on a mission here, and it's not Delanoy. Nevermind; I've read some of the history here. Nevertheless, you still appear to have an axe to grind against Jdelanoy given all your comments above; would you rather a different CheckUser run you down this time? —Jeremy (v^_^v Boribori!) 20:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I smell a blocked sockpuppet... -- ChrisO (talk) 20:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    As winter progresses, we see that not all of the ducks have flown south. -- Atama頭 20:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Aye, I do smell a sock; however his comment about unblocking a user he initially hit thru a sockblock is indeed correct (though it can be chalked up to false-positives). Plaxico strikes again; there isn't anything actionable here even if complainant wasn't J.Delanoy's stalker. —Jeremy (v^_^v Boribori!) 20:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Diicbtv2otwtdod23

    This one is on a page move vandalism spree with threats against an editors family. Needs blocked and the pages returned to their proper places. 98.248.32.44 (talk) 20:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I've voablocked this vandal - but would appreciate some assistance in undoing his vandalism. The redirects needs unpicking. Thanks, Ian Cairns (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've done the honors of revoking tp and email - I've seen this git before, and am about ready to ask for a community ban for him. —Jeremy (v^_^v Boribori!) 21:01, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    This is the LeeD vandal who apparently got autoconfirmed on purpose to do what he did. I asked J.delanoy for a checkuser to see if he is on a new IP range. Currently 3 of his ranges are on a long term block. I believe the actual user is ScienceGolfFanatic but not 100% sure. Momo san Gespräch 21:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Anyone threatening "Tewapack" is virtually guaranteed to be ScienceGolfFanatic unless he's got friends working with him now. -- Soap Talk/Contributions 22:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Also Filter 273, LeeD Vandalism may need to be updated as well to reflect the edits made. Momo san Gespräch 21:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I have adapted filter 273 to account for this. Please let me know if there's anything still being missed. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 22:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I actually saw this as it was happening because I have several of the pages that were vandalized on my watchlist. He was already blocked before I was able to send a report to AIV, so my response was to look at the unusual sequence of early edits to his own userpage to see what they were and why he made them. It looks like he was trying to evade Filter 72, so I spent quite some time looking at 72 to see what possible changes could be made. However I can't see any easy changes to make other than to raise the limit even higher, which might be controversial. I agree with your changes to 273. -- Soap Talk/Contributions 23:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    something that bears watching

    Resolved
     – Keanu217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) blocked indef by Jéské Couriano. -FASTILY (TALK) 00:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Keanu217 (talk · contribs) looks like a spam account for 'Cheap Food for Hard Times' - I already reverted where it replaced the content on the doc pages for {{infobox}}, but I suspect it will try elsewhere and may start spawning new accounts. may need some looking into. --Ludwigs2 21:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I've blocked him and deleted his talk page as G11; as soon as I revert what remains of his still-standing promo edits I will place the spamblock template on his page. —Jeremy (v^_^v Boribori!) 21:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The New Yorker takes a swipe at Wikipedia

    Resolved
     – Issue appears to be well in hand now. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:27, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    A few days ago, someone from The New Yorker left a message on my talk page asking me for an interview regarding BLPs (specifically concerning Neil Gaiman, on which I had been involved about a year ago). I see that The New Yorker has now published a cover story on Gaiman - a major biographical profile - which includes the comment: "The pivotal fact of Gaiman’s childhood is one that appears nowhere in his fiction and is periodically removed from his Wikipedia page by the site’s editors." [24] Looking at the page history, it seems that The New Yorker's comment is well-founded - two editors appear to be trying to WP:OWN the article are going against the consensus on the talk page by reverting out even new material cited to The New Yorker. The reasons for doing so appear to be very dubious - for instance, arguing that The New Yorker is a tabloid (!) This really doesn't reflect well on Wikipedia and being highlighted in a cover story is an embarrassment to the project. The issue has been raised on WP:BLPN#Neil Gaiman, which is how I found out about it. However I think, given the adverse press commentary, that the article would benefit from the involvement of the experienced editors here. (For the record, I'm not involved in the current discussion on Talk:Neil Gaiman#Scientology.) -- ChrisO (talk) 21:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    As one of the editors mentioned I don't see how one reverting a change I thought breached BLP, giving reasons in the edit summary, followed by lengthier reasons given immediately in talk, or any of my other contributions in that thread, means I have ownership issues. --JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 22:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I'll refactor that; although it does give the impression of ownership, I accept that you were acting in good faith. But I suggest that you should work with the other editors on the talk page to find a way to include the information rather than just reverting it out of the article on what seem to me to be very dubious grounds. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Here is the single sentence in the New Yorker article which references Wikipedia: "The pivotal fact of Gaiman’s childhood is one that appears nowhere in his fiction and is periodically removed from his Wikipedia page by the site’s editors". I don't see that as a "swipe" taken at anyone. Although it does not make Wikipedia look good, it appears to be accurate. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, it's accurate. My point is that the fact that it's accurate looks bad for us. I don't think it's been handled well, frankly, hence my request for input here. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    While this may be an interesting tidbit, I don't see any need for admin intervention. —DoRD (talk) 22:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I think this is well in hand now. I'll mark it as resolved. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:27, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Yugoslavian issues on railway articles

    [25] edit warring between 2 or more users with no basis in the actual subject (railways) - but seemingly based upon nationalist conflicts. One of the editors self reported the issue here : Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Trains#serious_problem. This issue has nothing to do with wikiprojectrailways, and clearly both editors are not working right - I see numerous 3rr, AGF, COI etc issues here, with neither editor acting productively in association with the other.

    The primary editors involved are User:LAz17 and User:Ex13. Shortfatlad (talk) 22:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh dear. LAz17 has had big trouble with permanent conflict and personal attacks over a different issue, and I had to topic-ban him under WP:ARBMAC from certain issues recently. Hoped to keep him out of trouble but that doesn't seem to have worked out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    We had this discussion in the past... Template talk:Urban Rail transportation in the former Yugoslavia. I assumed that it was closed and let it be. Then after some time user ex13 reopened the can of worms.
    Shortfatlad proposed the idea that both templates be used - I suppose that this can be a simple solution. User ex13 has had a problem with this though - but that was in the framework of the discussion of "this one or that one", and he was against that one.
    FPaS, I do not believe that there are any personal attacks going on right now. User ex13 has been previously banned on wikipedia and from what I understand, he has given user Direktor much grief. User Direktor in particular is important in this issue as he was involved from the beginning - and he was on my side.
    This issue however should not be difficult at all to fix. And your words describe me as if I am some sort of animal??!? (LAz17 (talk) 05:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)).[reply]
    FPaS, I went to look for mediation to help in the dispute. I saw that the dispute will go nowhere with me and him. Therefore I seeked help. I wanted this resolved. Why do you think that I am some sort of troll? If I was interested in edit-warring I would not have seeked help. As for Shortfatlad, I strongly condemn how you worded this - on the wiki rail project I asked for help. Hence I am looking for solutions in order to stop the issue. (LAz17 (talk) 05:38, 20 January 2010 (UTC)).[reply]
    But... I often see such disputes going off with totally unnecessary nonsense talk. My experience with the maps was that I was led to believe that one map has to be deleted, not that "the better one replaces the poorer one". So, lets cut down on the these unnecessary stuff and get to the points.
    1) I made a Yugoslav Urban Rail Article, which Direktor helped improve.
    2) In response, nationalist croat, user ex13, created a croatia tram thing and decided that the thing to do would be to replace the yugoslav rail template with it.
    so... what now? I find it bothering that ex13 has a problem with the yugoslav rail one. I think that the solution would be to redirect his croat tram, or to have both as shortfatlad suggested. If there are other possibilities please bring them up. If there are other ideas please bring them up. How hard can it be to resolve this simple issue? This is probably as simple as simplicity gets, no? (LAz17 (talk) 05:47, 20 January 2010 (UTC)).[reply]
    The solution would be to have both templates. Both do what they say on the tin. {{Urban Rail transportation in the former Yugoslavia}} covers all countries which formerly made up Yugoslavia, {{Trams in Croatia}} covers tram in modern Croatia. LAz17 - there are no nationalist Croats on Wikipedia, only editors. Mjroots (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:BjörnBergman

    BjörnBergman (talk · contribs) got blocked indefinitely for discussing (in Swedish, on his talk page) his 24-hour block on Wikipedia, as well as Swedish Wikipedia. He really would like his block removed and given a new chance to contribute to Wikipedia. My recommendation is that he is given the chance to do so. --Petter (talk) 22:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    It would probably have been best to simply ask the blocking admin, Theresa knott (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (who I've notified). –xenotalk 22:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I was just about to ask Theresa the same thing when I saw the notice on the Talk page. GameOn (talk) 06:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm fine with it. I'll do the unblock. Theresa Knott | token threats 06:34, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Request an administrator intervention and assistance in editing of wp: Family Foundation School

    Moved here from WT:AN —DoRD (talk) 22:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    There has been a continued issue on the "Family Foundation School" wikipedia article, generally surrounding negative issues that surround the school. Some of the editors have voiced their opinions that negative information about the school is not relevant to the article, but some other editors have voiced their opinion that allegations of abuse and the youth rights activism surrounding the school, specifically the abuse allegations, are necessary and relevant content that should be included in the article. Please have a neutral administrator review this article and mediate this article's content.

    Thank you Flyboi9 (talk) 20:16, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    First, you probably meant this for wp:ANI, which would also not have been the correct venue. You already have a neutral administrator trying to help you Orlady (talk · contribs), and a neutral (though I confess annoying) editor, me, trying to help you. I have suggested wp:ELN and wp:RfC as avenues to gather support for your position, or guidance, or both. wp:dispute resolution is another good document.- Sinneed 21:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:JCRB

    User:JCRB has been disrupting Gibraltar articles to make a point for some time now. He has been trying to force his edit into the lead of the Gibraltar article for some time. Now he is trying intimidation threatening to report people. I suspect this is a sock puppet of User:MEGV and that he has used several IP addresses as well. Before this is dismissed as a simple content dispute see [26], this effort dates back nearly 2 years where he tried to fillibuster the opposition into submission. From the looks of his contribution history his behaviour looks to be disruptive on Phillipines related articles as well. Justin talk 00:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Without looking further into any other allegations, I'd like to point out that the JCRB account was created on July 17, 2007. The MEGV account was created on May 14, 2008. JCRB has 303 edits, while MEGV has had 59. I don't think MEGV would be a sock of JCRB, rather it would be the other way around. I'd also like to point out that both accounts have clean block logs, and MEGV hasn't edited since August 1, 2008. I don't think an sockpuppet report would be useful because the MEGV account has been inactive for a very long time. -- Atama頭 02:15, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Justin and User:Gibnews

    User:Justin's accusations of "disruption" are an interesting example of hypocresy. For months this editor and User:Gibnews have blocked verifiable and neutral information about Gibraltar, preventing relevant information about its status or history from being included. A number of editors including User:MEGV (of whom I am accused of being a sock puppet), User:Imalbornoz and myself have attempted to include some dosis of neutrality (starting here [27], ending here [28]) with little or no success. The result is a biased article about a disputed territory which portrays only the British and/or Gibraltarian POV. Minimal or no reference to the Spanish (Andalusian) POV, or even the position of the United Nations is permitted by these editors. Issues like the arguable transfer of sovereignty according to the Treaty of Utrecht, reference to UN Resolutions on decolonization, or UN declarations expressing disapproval of the Gibraltar Referendum of 1967 have all been rejected despite reliable sources being presented. There has been constant opposition to citing the basis of the Spanish claims, specially territorial integrity and UN resolutions, as well as the San Roque issue. A complete overhaul of the article was suggested a few months back [29] due to its overwhelming lack of neutrality. Again these editors blocked specific improvements. Up to this day they deny the Non-self-governing status of Gibraltar despite this being the definition given by the United Nations (my latest edit with reference to UN 64th General Assembly statement [30] was again reverted). In summary, these editors permanently block any pieces of information which appear to oppose the British POV on Gibraltar. By constantly pushing their POV and refusing to include certain relevant facts, they are not only preventing the article from being more neutral and accurate, but they are disrupting the normal process of editing of the article. Finely enough, it is I who is accused of "disruption". JCRB (talk) 02:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Need an uninvolved admin to observe user behavior

    User:Valkyrie Red has been a persistent problem on Battle of Gettysburg. User's contributions are limited to debating and edit warring on the subjects of casualties and the insertion of the adjective "decisive" into the infobox results parameter. (Tonight, he's deleting cited material from Turning point of the American Civil War.) Established and respected User:Hlj has tried beyond patience to deal firmly and correctly with this user, but I'm running out of good faith with this determined page disruptor. In the past, I've called on User:Gwen Gale and User:Juliancolton as uninvolved admins. I'm asking for a fresh set of eyes to help observe my own biases in this process. BusterD (talk) 00:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Possible socks

    CaitlinQuinn1 (talk · contribs), Jibbyjaba (talk · contribs) and Bianca7479 (talk · contribs) are all SPAs that seem focused on rehabilitating the public image of Pit Bulls (see also List of people killed by dogs in the United States). All three accounts were created in the space of a few days and have only edited the two articles. Seems pretty duck-like to me. 98.248.32.44 (talk) 03:27, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Constant vandalism from an individual on AT&T IPs

    For the past month I have been dealing with an IP user who has constantly been removing all references from a series of articles I edit on a regular basis. I have reverted these every time but because the IPs are only related through the ISP (AT&T) and data center (Hayward, California) there cannot be a range block put in place. The following IPs have all been used by this individual, with the first one (and the case name) being the one used within the past hour.

    I never get results when I contact WP:ABUSE, and very often my reports to AIV get dismissed because I don't bother leaving a warning in these cases (I seriously do not expect IP editors to bother checking the talk page nor one that has been doing this to do anything in those regards).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:38, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    False information on Scott Brown article (Senator)

    Resolved

    violation of WP:CRYSTAL fixed

    Massachusetts senator Scott Brown's article is the target of some well meaninged but technical vandalism. They keep calling him Senator-elect. He is not. He is just the presumed winner and has been declared the winner by news organizations. However, the election is not certified. We can say multiple news organizations have declared him the winner but we cannot say he is the winner without using a crystal ball.

    If Wikipedia was around in 1948, Wikipedia would have said that President Truman lost the election. Jimbo Wales said that we must get it right. Saying someone is the winner based on a very good hunch is not good enough. JB50000 (talk) 04:23, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Coakley has called and conceded, so I have no reason to not call him senator-elect, or if you want, presumed senator-elect. SirFozzie (talk) 04:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    [31], JB50000, that is a violation of WP:NOR, WP:BLP, and WP:SELFREF, please do not insert material such as that in the future. MBisanz talk 04:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, MBisanz but it was a genuine effort to get it right. Coakley is not the election commissioner. There have been a few cases that the loser was so sore that he or she refused to call and concede. JB50000 (talk) 04:30, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, in any case, it is not vandalism to note the election results that have been reported, nor is it productive to call it vandalism. If you have an issue with the particular contents of Scott Brown, then Talk:Scott Brown is the place to raise those issues - not here. — Gavia immer (talk) 04:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    But bringing it here has gotten the article fixed. We now are reporting it correctly. I did not call it vandalism. I called it technical vandalism (not the same) and also said that people have good intentions but are putting predictions and stating them as fact. JB50000 (talk) 04:47, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    For future reference, the Content noticeboard and BLP noticeboard are intended for raising issues like this. Don't feed the admins content issues, it only encourages them.  Skomorokh  04:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Rdm2376 starting mass deletions

    Rdm2376 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) this past hour has started mass-deleting articles with the rationale "Unwatched and unsourced biography that has not been edited for at least 6 months". He continued even after two of asked him to pause until the community has a chance to discuss his actions. Finally he paused after I pointed out to him that one of his deletions was in error. Thoughts? In my opinion the deletions ought to be undone, as they are not in keeping with our current deletion policy and many of the articles can potentially be improved. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 05:15, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Seems reasonable to delete biographies of living people that are unsourced and unmaintained. They're ticking time bombs as people can insert harmful content that has very real consequences. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) You would support undeleting unsourced biographies of living people? For all intents and purposes, that is the same as creating an unsourced BLP. NW (Talk) 05:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    This method of deletion is blatantly out-of-process, but really it's our only option. What else are we going to do with the hordes of unsourced, stale, and marginally notable BLPs? This has to happen eventually IMO. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not our only option. We have a process for this - PRODding. --NeilN talk to me 05:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    PROD works for isolated cases, but is neither appropriate nor practical for hundreds or thousands of pages. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Why not? --NeilN talk to me 05:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Because it requires twice the work, for starters. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:38, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    If someone PRODs 1000 articles in a day, someone will start an ANI thread about them abusing the PROD process. Additionally, PROD fails miserably for articles like this. A few months ago I tried PROD-ing about a dozen of the oldest unsourced BLPs (longest time without sourcing). Around 3 were actually deleted, about half just had the tag removed with no improvements made. Mr.Z-man 05:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I approve of his actions. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Rdm2376 is doing good work. Unsourced BLPs that show no sign of ever being sourced should be deleted. If someone personally would like to take on the task of sourcing all of them, ask him to userfy them for you. Wikipedia is full of this kind of stuff and the solutions are to either source them or delete them. Both work just fine. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 05:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    If the articles are not speediable then the deletes are out of process. It makes me nervous that no second opinion is being potentially sought for these deletes. --NeilN talk to me 05:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    This is my problem as well. The deletions are well out of process, if the current process isn't working then it should be changed but the community should be involved in making that decision. Camw (talk) 05:30, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The community is incapable of such a conversation and decision. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    What exactly gives you the right to hold a conversation and make a decision to go ahead with it elsewhere because you don't think the community should be involved? Was I wrong when I thought this was a collaborative project? Camw (talk) 05:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Hence my actions. Kevin (talk) 05:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    More worrying because it's obvious from the discussion that s/he isn't even bothering to check whether the tags are correctly applied or not. Guettarda (talk) 05:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Which discussion indicates that? --MZMcBride (talk) 05:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That isn't true. The one that Paul Erik mentioned had the references very well hidden within the text, and was restored when this was pointed out. It certainly does not invalidate the general principle. Kevin (talk) 05:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It's an example, though, of the value of having more than one person's eyes pass over the article before the speedy-deletion happens. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 05:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    If you'd like to go through this list ahead of time and tag the bad biographies for deletion, I'm sure Kevin wouldn't mind. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 05:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Was there a discussion of this somewhere already? (On-wiki or off-wiki?) Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 05:29, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Where? --NeilN talk to me 05:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia Review. Careful, I've been told it's an irresponsible attack site and well-known trolls' den. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    So, no community discussion? --NeilN talk to me 05:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure there was community discussion. Perhaps not the community you're thinking of? --MZMcBride (talk) 05:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Cute. You should know that the only community discussion that means anything involves the Wikipedia community. --NeilN talk to me 05:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I understand the problem, but I just don't get the whole idea of deleting articles because they lack sources. Delete articles because they're crap, delete articles because they aren't accurate...but unless you're checking the sources, the mere presence of a source says absolutely nothing. Guettarda (talk) 05:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    It's about a lack of adequate sourcing, not the presence of poor sources. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:34, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly. Deleting articles because they lack sourcing does nothing to reduce BLP violations. The fact that an article has a source doesn't stop someone from inserting smears. In fact, a crap article with sources is more misleading, because it creates a false impression of being 'authoritative'. Deleting articles because someone fails to tick off the proper box is doing something just for the sake of doing something. Guettarda (talk) 05:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    BLPs are required to have sources. An unsourced BLP is therefore a BLP violation. Deleting an unsourced BLP removes the violation from the site. As long as the number of unsourced BLPs being deleted outpaces the number being created (which is a lot), it will reduce the number of BLP violations. Mr.Z-man 05:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    As I understand our BLP policy, the onus is on the user wishing to restore unsourced content about a living person to show the inclusion of sources for the alleged claims, this can easily be done using the normal process at WP:DRV as we would for any other situation in which sources manifest themselves after deletion has occurred. MBisanz talk 05:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Hold on. BLP overrides CSD criteria? --NeilN talk to me 05:37, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    BLP overrides any policy. I like to think real lives are more important than needless wiki bureaucracy. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The BLP policy on deletion says that if the article isn't policy compliant then it should be improved and rectified and only deleted if that is not possible. This skips the attempt to improve the article. Camw (talk) 05:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That's great, but who's going to do that for 51,864 articles in dire need of either attention or removal? –Juliancolton | Talk 05:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've spent days going over those categories adding references, PRODding sending to AfD. It's both endless and thankless. Kevin (talk) 05:47, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    We thank you for your prior uncontroversial work, but having done that and gotten tired of it is not a justification or excuse for overstepping other existing policy and treading to or past the limit of WP:BOLD... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:55, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm involved in it right now. Once the ones in the project are done then I'll help with the rest happily. Others will help I'm sure. Camw (talk) 05:52, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) CSD exists to have a reference sheet for common deletion reasons. It has never been and never will be completely inclusive of what can be deleted with haste. (And these articles have existed for months without proper sourcing.) --MZMcBride (talk) 05:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    So we're throwing the "credible claim of notability" criteria that stops CSD tags out the window? --NeilN talk to me 05:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (EC) BLP applies where a violation of BLP is credibly alledged to apply; simply saying "this is unsourced" does not invoke BLP. See the shortcut WP:GRAPEVINE to the BLP subsection, quoting:
    No allegation of good faith content objections, or attack page status, has been made here. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    While we sit and twiddle our thumbs on thousands of unreferenced, marginally notable BLPs, the articles can have real life consequences for people. I think these deletions, and MBisanz's idea particularly, is a step in the right direction. Killiondude (talk) 05:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank fuck someone is doing something. ViridaeTalk 05:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Yep. Because the illusion of progress is so much better than actual progress. Guettarda (talk) 05:44, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Fewer unmaintained biographies. It's small progress, but I wouldn't knock it. You eat the elephant one bite at a time, after all. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    One libellous article is worse than 1000 unreferenced articles that aren't. It also takes a fraction of the effort to fix. But, of course, it's more important to look busy. Guettarda (talk) 05:49, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    You seem to be missing the point. No one is really doing anything about unsourced BLPs or libellous ones. Surely working on a lower-priority problem is better than working on neither? You're also assuming that there's no overlap between the 2 groups of articles. Mr.Z-man 05:55, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it's not better. Because it pushes people to include any source. Pushing people to hide the problem makes it harder to solve. Guettarda (talk) 05:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Out of curiosity, do you have any alternate ideas that don't involve either mass deletion or something substantially similar to what we're doing now (which consists of working through the backlog at only a fraction of the rate that its increasing)? Mr.Z-man 06:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    As I said on Kevin's talkpage, various projects exist to reference articles in areas of interest. Thousands of articles have been improved or deleted. Deleting these removes the chance of improvement. Going ahead with this without consulting our community here is entirely the wrong thing to do and running something based on the consensus of Wikipedia Review is insulting to editors here. Camw (talk) 05:49, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I support Rdm2376's deletions. Not that anybody cares what I think, but it seems like the articles have been tagged, then deletedm because nobody cared to add sources. Abductive (reasoning) 05:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • If Kevin's actions are deemed inappropriate by the community, I expect to see Category:All unreferenced BLPs empty shortly thereafter. For what it's worth, 339 biographies have remained unsourced, unmaintained and stagnant since January 2007—three years. It's high time we stop selfishly worrying about our own petty bureaucracy and thinking about the real-world implications of our efforts to harbor these very questionable and low-quality articles. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Kevin's proposed actions should have been given a chance to be reviewed by the community before going ahead with them. Did you think nobody would notice or disagree? Maybe all project decisions should be restricted to a few selected editors, it's much easier and way less work that way. Camw (talk) 05:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    BLP clearly and unambiguously supports dealing with articles with identifiable real world issues, such as unsourced negative comments, false statements, potential libel, and the like. It does not support (and other policy does not support) blanket removal of potentially but not specifically problematic articles.
    If the community wants to nuke all unreferenced BLPs then that's fine - as a new policy or behavior standard. But we don't have that now. Georgewilliamherbert (talk)
    Why do we need explicit policy to take actions to prevent real harm to real-world living people? –Juliancolton | Talk 06:13, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    So the only articles to be mass deleted are the ones causing harm? --NeilN talk to me 06:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly. No specific allegations of harm were made regarding these articles. The general allegation - that as a project, we have a lot of unreferenced biographies which arguably contain a lot of bogus data - is rhetorically supported universally but not a validly recognized aspect of WP deletion policy either in precedent or written policy. Specific examples of harm are required under existing policy, and either community consensus on this being OK per further discussion here, or a policy change per discussion there, are required to legitimize the mass deletions. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly. I think deleting all unreferenced BLP's two weeks after creation would be great. But this standard needs to have the approval of the community. --NeilN talk to me 06:15, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Perfect example: DASHbot is in the process of notifying people that they have created unsourced BLPs. The responsible thing to do when you get a notification like that is to source the articles. Properly. Or nominate them for deletion. But actions like this would rather push people to add any sourcing. And once the problem is "solved", there's no longer a push to actually fix the problem of sourcing. But, of course, if you only care about numbers, not quality... Guettarda (talk) 05:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Can you see the moral imperative here? Most of these biographies are trivial to re-create (or can be restored) when someone is willing to provide sources. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly. Which means that once they're recreated, they'll be that much harder to find. No more accurate. Just better hidden. Which makes the problem worse. Guettarda (talk) 06:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't understand your point. Are you saying that once an article is sourced, it'll be more problematic? —Dark 06:01, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    If it's got false or damaging or libellous content then yes, of course it's worse if it's sourced than if it's unsourced. Because, of course, it's that much harder to find. And if it doesn't have anything damaging, if it's accurate, then it doesn't hurt if it's unsourced. Guettarda (talk) 06:07, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That's all specifically reflected in WP:BLP now, I think - but, doesn't directly apply here, as the deletions didn't make specific allegations of overly negative, positive, or questionable content, only unsourced. If there's a specific problem with the article that's different, but those weren't alleged with specificity here. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Umm, if content isn't negative, or positive, or questionable; then, umm, what content isn't in the scope of that phrase? I would say simply asserting there is content and that none of it is sourced is sufficient to fit it in that phrase. MBisanz talk 06:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The Obama decision says, and I quote:
    Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately. (sourced from your link).
    "Contentious" is a feature of that. You are going beyond that and claiming that it supports removal of non-contentious material.
    I do not believe BLP or either decision cited supports that claim. It's a valid community decision if we want to extend that to say so - but it's not what it says now. A specific claim that something in the article is contentious (or wrong, or overly positive or negative or questionable) needs to be made to justify a removal under existing as-written policy. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:27, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That sentence has two conceivable readings. One is that "unsourced" and "poorly" are modifiers of the phrase "contentious material about living persons", another is that "unsourced" modifies "material" and "poorly sourced contentious" also modifies "material." I am reading it in the second manner. MBisanz talk 06:30, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree with that reading in the plain english sense. If Arbcom intended us to nuke all unreferenced BLPs as an outcome of the above cases it was not clearly supported by discussion then or since...
    Community can decide now that we want to; it's within our remit. But stretching grammar parsing to the point that we break the language to try and support "oh, we already say you should do that" is not a good way to do this. If the communty supports it, it's fine, we can do it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Arbcom did also rule that admins can do anything, including deletion, to protect BLPs, all at the admin's discretion. That seems to fit with my broader reading of it. MBisanz talk 06:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (after multiple ECs) Still, Arbcom's intention does not appear to be that we proceed with deleting all BLPs simply because they are currently unsourced. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 06:45, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think they left it up to individual admin discretion and also said that reversal would lead to desysopping. MBisanz talk 06:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Just AfD them if you can't speedy them. They'll be deleted or they'll be improved. Grandmasterka 06:47, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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