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Closure review (LUGSTUBS2)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Closure vacated
The discussion concerns a closure related to Lugnuts' automated creation of mass stubs and what to do with them. Jc37 closed the discussion with a short statement which said that the community in general urged to take some action but there [was] No Consensus that mass-draftification (mass-moving-out-of-article-space) is the correct solution for all of these
(emphasis in original). A couple of days later, the closer clarified that they omitted other proposed solutions, such as listification, from the closure because there was no consensus for that, either. They added that every article should be processed individually. After a brief discussion on the closer's talk page, the user initiated a self-review here.
Calculation of necessary consensus. Uninvolved votes were given more weight in the discussion, though the outcome did not change much, as, depending on your method of counting, 60-70% of users urged to overturn the outcome, and at least some of the arguments were strong enough for vacating. WP:CONSENSUS does not give a guideline for what to do when closure reviews end in no consensus, but given the stakes involved (1K+ articles and a discussion potentially having implications on interpreting policy), a "no consensus" outcome doesn't cut it, so there should be rough consensus to retain it if it is to stand.
There were four issues raised in this discussion.
- WP:INVOLVEDness. The OP and Levivich alleged that the closer is involved because of prior comments about the way AfDs should be addressed and their prior interactions with BilledMammal, who opened the RfC whose closure is challenged here. There was a fair bit of support for that notion, but not enough to call it consensus to overturn on this basis alone. That said, the optics appear not very good to several editors, including long-standing ones, and that should be a reason to refrain from closing.
- Insufficient rationale. The discussion reached consensus that the close did not explain well why the no-consensus outcome for draftification is the proper one, and this was patently a discussion that needed more effort for the closer. The clarification changed the discussion dynamic a bit but since the opposes still were not satisfied (no change in !vote), I assume that they didn't change their minds. Even though some users said that the outcome was correct, in contentious and large discussions like this, the rationale is essential to understand the way the closer was thinking and evaluating the arguments when closing it. Stumbling upon the correct outcome is not good enough, and anyway a substantial portion of editors was unconvinced the summary was correct (some pointing to WP:LUGSTUBS for comparison).
- Not addressing the RFC question. North8000 stated that the closure did not answer the question properly and implied that the user equated the mass-draftification proposal to whether the pages should be moved from article space. One user disagreed with that argument, and that was about it. Too little discussion occurred on this front.
- RFC close kicking the can down the road, which was the essence of SnowFire's complaint, as it acknowledged the problem but did not indicate the way to address it. It is frustrating, but policy-wise totally appropriate conduct. Taking the California analogy by North8000, suppose 63% of a group wants to go to California, of which 20% want to go to LA, 15% to San Francisco, 11% to Sacramento, 9% to San Diego, 5% to Fresno and 3% to the Death Valley. Just because there is consensus to go to California doesn't mean that there is consensus to go to Los Angeles specifically, and in fact deciding for the whole group to go to LA would be rightly seen as a supervote of sorts. Another discussion should be held to see if the group can agree on going to that city, knowing that they will go to the state.
I did not take into account the alleged pattern of bad closes - editors who want to make this case and ask the administrators to do something with it should open a separate discussion.
There was insufficient discussion on whether a panel close is needed, though it might be advisable for an RFC this big.
In total, the community at large did not approve of the closure. There is consensus to vacate based on poor reasoning of the close. Even though the editors couldn't agree on whether jc37 was involved, some users rightly noted that outside perception of bias is reason enough to have second thoughts about closing.
The discussion is reopened and the vacated closure will be collapsed for reference. (non-admin closure) Szmenderowiecki (talk) 00:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#RfC_on_draftifying_a_subset_of_mass-created_Cricketer_microstubs
- User_talk:Jc37#LUGSTUBS_2_Closure
- Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Requests_for_comment/AfD_at_scale#Proposal_16 - the edits in question
So first, I don't think I'm involved in this at all. I don't believe I've participated in any of this.
But User:BilledMammal seems to think that something I apparently tossed out as a potential idea for part of some other proposed RfC for people to talk about (the rfc of which apparently never happened) awhile back, causes me to be involved. I disagree, as I noted on my talk page. An rfc on drafts is not equal to an rfc on bot-assisted creation or on xfd.
I welcome other's thoughts on this.
Even if you don't think this causes me to be involved, but you think the rfc close should be overturned or re-opened, I welcome those thoughts too. I'm a believer in "many eyes", and "there's always another admin". But I also don't think that someone involved in a discussion should just be able to invent reasons to get a close they may not like, undone.
Anyway, I appreciate your (plural) insight. - jc37 07:22, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Interestingly, as I re-read that post (which, as I mentioned on my talk page that I didn't recall), it would seem to support deletion after a 30-day discussion - similar to an rfc. So, apparently I'm not against mass deletion in a 30 day or more forum. I dunno, I was "in the moment" reading all of that at the time. I don't recall much any of it now. And I mean that sincerely, not as some sort of "on the witness stand", dodge. I'd have to go through and re-read it all to figure out what I may have been thinking at the time. - jc37 07:30, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) (comment from involved editor) Thank you for opening this, and for pinging me to it.
- I see two issues with this close. First, Jc37 is WP:INVOLVED; they previously advanced the proposal that
Group nom AfDs should be for no more than 4 very connected articles. A broad topic, like "math", or "climate change", or even "the Harry Potter franchise", is not considered "very connected" in this case.
This proposal is in opposition to the one proposed in the RFC, which proposed draftifying many more than four articles on the broad topic of “Cricketers mass created by Lugnuts”. - They have since argued that they are not involved because this was not technically an AfD, but many editors both in support and opposition to the proposal directly compared it to one; I believe the discussion was too closely related to AfD's for this disctinction to matter.
- Second, the close presents no justification (although I did ask the closer to provide one, if they were unwilling to overturn the close); it merely asserts that there was no consensus for the proposal, but there was a consensus to handle the articles individually. While consensus is not determined based on voting, when a closer closes against the majority position - in this case, approximately 60% of editors supported the proposal - they are expected to justify why the arguments against the proposal were stronger than the ones for the proposal. This isn't the first time recently we have seen this issue with a close by Jc37; in July they reverted their close of another discussion after a review at AN; AirshipJungleman29 made the comment
Obviously overturn per above and ask the closer to review WP:CLOSE—"A good closer will transparently explain how the decision was reached." A two sentence, one line close for a 200kb+ discussion is simply not the expected standard.
It appears to apply to this close as well. BilledMammal (talk) 07:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- As I was pinged by the above, my thoughts: I have no opinion on the discussion itself, but on the manner it was closed. A ~400,000 character discussion being closed with a summary of a single paragraph? Seriously, what the actual hell? A good close engages with all aspects of the discussion, and explains the closer's reasoning. This is not a good close, this is not even a mediocre close. If this is the expected standard of work on Wikipedia, then we have some very serious problems indeed. For that reason, Overturn and reclose (uninvolved)—this shoddy work cannot be allowed to stand, and jc37 needs to take a serious look at their suitability for closing discussions—this is now
twice(EDIT: thrice, see FormalDude below) in less than a month. I have closed RfCs four times shorter with four times as much reasoning (Example). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:18, 17 August 2023 (UTC) - Vacate (uninvolved) and allow someone else to reclose. Providing barely any explanation for controversial and long discussion closures would appear to be Jc37's modus operandi. Yesterday I had to ask them to expand their close of this RfC, which had 146 comments from 45 different editors, and barely a sentence long closing summary from them. I second AirshipJungleman29 in that I have no thoughts on the Village Pump RfC, other than that it deserves a much better closure from someone who is able to reasonably articulate how they reached their decision. ––FormalDude (talk) 13:57, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
As is not uncommon for a closer, what may seem obvious when they are writing may not always be obvious to the reader.
I don't think Jc37 has quite realised that this is a them problem, not a Wikipedia problem, and that they should take steps to fix it. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:22, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- (comment from involved editor) On a pure headcount basis, this discussion has similar support % to the first LUGSTUBS. I feel like any close that closes differently than that discussion did needs to address why this is different to the first discussion explicitly - whether that be weight of argument or some other factor. casualdejekyll 14:15, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- As someone who is not familiar with the topic area, could you please link the first LUBSTUBS? Loki (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- WP:LUGSTUBS - although I can see why you wouldn't expect that link to work, we don't usually link RfC's that way. BilledMammal (talk) 14:43, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
any close that closes differently than that discussion did needs to address why this is different to the first discussion explicitly
- Why? AfDs don't connect to other AfDs. An RfC about an infobox doesn't have to say why it's different from other RfCs about infoboxes... That just seems like a way to synthetically raise the bar. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:38, 17 August 2023 (UTC)- These two do connect. That's my entire argument. casualdejekyll 00:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Except they don't. This RfC was created by someone wanting to do the same as last time, but the reasoning is independent and many of the arguments were different. This RfC must be evaluated on its own merits, not the merits of a previous one that asked a different question about different articles. Thryduulf (talk) 19:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- These two do connect. That's my entire argument. casualdejekyll 00:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- As someone who is not familiar with the topic area, could you please link the first LUBSTUBS? Loki (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
|
- This is precisely why Village Pump discussions are not a vote whose result generates a defacto policy based on the outcome. They're just a discussion, whose points and merits must be weighed by a closing admin independently. Steven Walling • talk 05:28, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and they were *already weighed last time*. casualdejekyll 16:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- This is precisely why Village Pump discussions are not a vote whose result generates a defacto policy based on the outcome. They're just a discussion, whose points and merits must be weighed by a closing admin independently. Steven Walling • talk 05:28, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- (comment from involved editor) I am not going to comment on the actual substance of the closure, other than giving more detail in a closure is (almost?) never a bad thing. I will state though that whatever it's merits, Jc37 comments on the RfC that didn't end up happening don't come close to making them involved in the mass draftifcation RFC. Thryduulf (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- True enough. If one writes too much, they can hear about it, and if too little, the same. I typically have no problem expanding on/clarifying a close explanation. - jc37 20:56, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- (comment from involved editor) I do believe this is the correct closure (of course I would), but I also think that more text and explanation in the closure would be appropriate (for example, the prior two closures of the prior discussion relating to this had massive close comments). Also, the fact that jc37 commented two years ago on a discussion distantly related absolutely does not make them an INVOLVED editor here. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:17, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- FYI, eight months, not two years. And I wouldn't consider it distantly related; the cancellation of that RfC directly lead to WP:LUGSTUBS, and jc37's proposal would have prevented LUGSTUBS if there had been a consensus for it. BilledMammal (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- OK, eight months. I still think its silly to declare one involved for something like this, considering he didn't even remember it (
So, I don't remember that at all. I'll go see if I can find what you're talking about.
) BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:27, 17 August 2023 (UTC)- An editor is not involved as long as they don't remember their involvement?
Levivich (talk) 16:27, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes and no. The reason INVOLVED closes are a bad thing is that someone who is involved is not (or can appear not to be) neutral. If someone genuinely has no recollection of having participated in a related discussion previously they are not knowingly biased towards one outcome. Of course unintentional bias is always possible, but that's not really affected by whether someone remembers their previous activity or not. Another factor is that admins acting in good faith do try and avoid acting when involved, and if they can't recall participation in something that's a sign that it might not be as relevant to the discussion as you think it is. Thryduulf (talk) 17:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Confirmation bias more than just possible. People are most biased about things they don't realize they're biased about. The suggestion that a person's recollection or self-assessment is a good indicator of their bias is just silly and well-refuted by the field of psychology. Levivich (talk) 17:15, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes and no. The reason INVOLVED closes are a bad thing is that someone who is involved is not (or can appear not to be) neutral. If someone genuinely has no recollection of having participated in a related discussion previously they are not knowingly biased towards one outcome. Of course unintentional bias is always possible, but that's not really affected by whether someone remembers their previous activity or not. Another factor is that admins acting in good faith do try and avoid acting when involved, and if they can't recall participation in something that's a sign that it might not be as relevant to the discussion as you think it is. Thryduulf (talk) 17:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- An editor is not involved as long as they don't remember their involvement?
- Actually, that assertion is completely false. If you really want to use that quote from the past, then quote it: "AfDs for mass deletion of articles (more than X in a single nom) should have a 30 day time frame, similar to an RfC." - Which is what you did. It ran, what, a month and a half? So please stop miscontruing what was stated. - jc37 04:10, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- You also said
These all work together.
I interpreted it as that you wanted theseGroup nom AfDs
to be run as longer AfD's, but it is ambiguous. Either way, you are WP:INVOLVED, with Levivich presenting a very strong case for this. I understand that you don't see yourself as genuinely involved - although I and others disagree - but WP:INVOLVED is also about the appearance of involvement, and I hope you can understand why you appear to be involved and I hope you are willing to revert your close on that basis. BilledMammal (talk) 05:00, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- You also said
- OK, eight months. I still think its silly to declare one involved for something like this, considering he didn't even remember it (
- FYI, eight months, not two years. And I wouldn't consider it distantly related; the cancellation of that RfC directly lead to WP:LUGSTUBS, and jc37's proposal would have prevented LUGSTUBS if there had been a consensus for it. BilledMammal (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- (involved/supported) Overturn.
- First, it's a sub-par closing statement, it doesn't summarize the discussion or the arguments, it doesn't weigh votes, it doesn't explain how the conclusion was arrived at. (See WP:ACD.) Poor closing statements by Jc37 have unfortunately become something of a pattern now, that we've previously seen at the WP:NOT closure (overturned) and more recently the PragerU closure mentioned by FD below (challenged), and I found another deletion-related short-closure from 2021, linked below.
- Second, the closer is involved with the RFC proposer. Jc37's NOT closure (linked above) was challenged and reverted by BilledMammal (among others). See User talk:BilledMammal#WP:NOTDIRECTORY closure. Jc took BM to ANI for that, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1134#Reverting a close. When someone reverts your close, challenges your close, and/or you take them to ANI for it, and/or the close is overturned/reverted, you shouldn't then close, a month later, another RFC that same person started. Totally, hugely, involved. Jc shouldn't close any BM-started RFCs in the future.
- Third, the closer is involved with the topic area. Going backwards:
- Jan 2023: commented: "Maybe we need to take another look at how subjective GNG is, if we're going to continually see it merely being repeatedly used as code for WP:IDONTLIKEIT."
- Dec 2022, 6 edits at WP:ACAS workshop, including proposing "Proposal 16", making a proposal that is essentially an alternate proposal to WP:LUGSTUBS/WP:LUGSTUBS2 (another method for handling mass creation/deletion) (this is the one mentioned in the OP).
- A year ago, made 14 edits to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing/Workshop, the Arbcom workshop about the deletion case. In that 2022 deletion discussion, Jc wrote things like:
- how references to essays should be weighed by a closer (did Jc do that in this close?)
- ""How much is enough" shouldn't even be a discussion to have. And the idea that a topic needs to earn being a standalone article is ridiculous."
- ironically, "It is, unfortunately, becoming more and more common for closers to just rely on commenters' assertions (and really, just "vote-count" bullet pointed comments), when deciding which way to close a discussion rather than actually assess the entire discussion and current policy."
- Also ironically, arguing that AFDs are "buried in some back room in Wikipedia-space" and should be moved to more-visible locations like article talk pages
- "We should avoid being impatient to delete."
- The common complaint about lack-of-BEFORE: "I've seen more than a few nominations in which the nominator rather clearly didn't bother to do BEFORE ... I think we need better ways to try to establish whether due diligence was done before a nomination."
- A possibly self-fulfilling prophecy: "the all-to-common steps: a.) An editor makes mass edits b.) The editor is asked to stop ... i.) the discussion is (not surprisingly) a messy trainwreck, so no closer determines there is a consensus j.) fait accompli."
- Arguing that if mass-creation requires BRFA approval then "This should apply to mass tagging of afd/prod, as well."
- And last but not least:
I'm just going to note that I find it rather ridiculous the amount of time wasted on whether a piece of information "deserves its own article". Whether we separate information into separate pages or list it all into a single scrolling page, is merely a matter of presentation. What the blank does "notability" have to do with presentation? Zero. Notability is about inclusion of information in Wikipedia, not how that information is presented. I realise that some seem to feel that notability should include how information is presented, but in so doing, we're creating issues where none should exist. It all seems rather counterproductive.
- In 2021, closed another discusion that proposed adding to WP:SNG "Mass creation of short or stub articles based on simple lists or database sources that would pass an SNG is strongly discouraged", also with a one-sentence close (it's really a pattern... funny, if that one closed differently, we might not be here two years later...)
- In 2020, suggested "we just restrict "notability" rationales for deletion, to biography articles".
- It's not that there's anything wrong with expressing opinions about mass-creation/mass-deletion, or there's anything wrong with having prior closes challenged or even overturned, but if you've been expressing opinions for years (regardless of whether they are "pro" or "anti," "inclusionist" or "deletionist"), don't close a big pump RFC about it, especially with a too-short close, and don't close an RFC started by an editor who recently challenged another closure of yours, especially if you went to ANI over it, especially if the close was overturned. Jc should vote in, not close, RFCs about article creation/deletion. Levivich (talk) 17:15, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- I got as far as
Maybe we need to take another look at how subjective GNG is, if we're going to continually see it merely being repeatedly used as code for WP:IDONTLIKEIT
- So now someone is involved if they've, what, talked about notability? In a random AfD about a comic book island? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:58, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- I got as far as
- For those who don't know, the 2020 AFD and 2021 SNG discussions I linked are part of the many deletion discussions (including the JPL-related threads which Jc also commented in but I didn't quote above) that led to the 2022 WP:ARBDEL (where Lugnuts was sitebanned, and Jc's participation is quoted above). ARBDEL launched WP:ACAS (also quoted above) and ACAS led to WP:LUGSTUBS and we're here about the closure of WP:LUGSTUBS2. So these aren't just JC's opinions about notability or deletion in general, this is Jc participating in ARBDEL, ACAS, and other discussions that are the direct precursors of LUGSTUBS; this isn't indirect involvement, it's direct involvement, for years. He's as involved as I am. Levivich (talk) 20:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm just guessing, but it sounds like your argument is similar to the one where people have suggested that a member of a wikiproject shouldn't close discussions on the topic of the wikiproject, or that people who block people shouldn't close discussions about blocking. Or even that people who have commented in RFCs about blocking, shouldn't block people.
- I've been working in and around XfD policy, and discussions thereof, for a very long time. And really, around Wikipedia policy and guidelines a very long time.
- And to say that I believe in the consensus model on Wikipedia, would be putting it very mildly.
- Anyway, all that aside, I do think you're mischaracterizing (to be charitable) some of the above. But I don't think it's worth the time parsing all of your comments. I think I'll just say: You're welcome to your opinion", and move on. - jc37 20:56, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm saying (1) if an editor has a dispute with another editor that they escalate to ANI, they shouldn't close an RFC started by that other editor, (2) no one who participated in ARBDEL or ACAS should be closing LUGSTUBS RFCs, and (3) this close should be overturned per 1 and 2. Levivich (talk) 21:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- ...plus the closing statement. Levivich (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think we need more comments from uninvolved editors on this review. casualdejekyll 17:18, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse this was a reasonable close and the closer was not involved. And yes, I did !vote oppose on the proposal. Which I'm sure invalidates my opinion in the eyes of the people attacking the close(r) here. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think your opinion would be less likely to be viewed as invalid if you explained why you think the close was reasonable and the closer was not involved. Kind of ironic that a lack of explanation is a main reason for why we're here in the first place. ––FormalDude (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- It was already explained above why the closer was not involved; if you didn't accept that explanation then you won't accept my restatement of it. And I see no point in spending my time going over an in-depth review of the reasonableness of the close because these discussions always go in favor of the deletionists (and if not, they just object to the close like they did here), but I'm still going to raise my voice in objection so they at least can't claim unanimity. But don't pretend that a lack of explanation is the main reason why we're here. There's no way that a 'no consensus' close of any length would have been accepted without a fight, and everyone here knows it. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- While I am not going to endorse the language used by Lepricavark (as I think it is too harsh), when I saw the close was not in favour of the proposal the first thing I did was to look at the closer's talk page for the objection. Thryduulf (talk) 21:36, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- It is possible for it to be true that both a closure of no consensus would always be controversial, and that Jc37's closure is problematic. An objection being expected does not automatically make it invalid. I myself have no skin in the game whatsoever regarding the RfC, yet I still find Jc37's close to be quite lacking. ––FormalDude (talk) 22:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- You are rebutting a point that no one has made. Sure, the close could be problematic, although I don't agree that it is. But there was zero chance of any 'no consensus' close being accepted. And once this close is vacated, there is very little chance of another admin wanting to face the wrath that will surely come after another 'no consensus' close. The deck is stacked in favor of one side of this debate primarily because they have shown themselves willing to overwhelm the other side and everyone in the middle. Perhaps my language is harsh, but in the current climate a good deal more harshness would be warranted. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:18, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- It is possible for it to be true that both a closure of no consensus would always be controversial, and that Jc37's closure is problematic. An objection being expected does not automatically make it invalid. I myself have no skin in the game whatsoever regarding the RfC, yet I still find Jc37's close to be quite lacking. ––FormalDude (talk) 22:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Speak for yourself; a lack of coherent explanation is the only reason I'm here. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:36, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- While I am not going to endorse the language used by Lepricavark (as I think it is too harsh), when I saw the close was not in favour of the proposal the first thing I did was to look at the closer's talk page for the objection. Thryduulf (talk) 21:36, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- It was already explained above why the closer was not involved; if you didn't accept that explanation then you won't accept my restatement of it. And I see no point in spending my time going over an in-depth review of the reasonableness of the close because these discussions always go in favor of the deletionists (and if not, they just object to the close like they did here), but I'm still going to raise my voice in objection so they at least can't claim unanimity. But don't pretend that a lack of explanation is the main reason why we're here. There's no way that a 'no consensus' close of any length would have been accepted without a fight, and everyone here knows it. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think your opinion would be less likely to be viewed as invalid if you explained why you think the close was reasonable and the closer was not involved. Kind of ironic that a lack of explanation is a main reason for why we're here in the first place. ––FormalDude (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate I am involved, but considering how contentious this was and is, any mere tinge of involvement is enough for me to suggest that self-vacating may be prudent here, and someone completely uninvolved should review and close in time. I'm not sure if it could be closed differently, but I haven't specifically reviewed on those merits. SportingFlyer T·C 22:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Close was not WP:INVOLVED. This was contested on the basis of involvement, and the evidence about involvedness is just thus far unconvincing. Not going to try to prove a negative, but I did reply to one of the walls of text above. [participated/opposed] -- Adding: but elaborate the closing statement please. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 01:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
This was contested on the basis of involvement
- This was contested on two grounds. Involvement, which Levivich has presented extensive evidence for, and a patently inadequate close. BilledMammal (talk) 00:44, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate <uninvolved>. Obviously we don't expect the closer to write a novel, but in a discussion of this nature, giving some indication of why you found no consensus is definitely necessary. What weight did you give the various !votes? What arguments were policy-based? What arguments weren't? It may well be that the outcome is correct (I haven't read the discussion thoroughly enough to have a firm opinion either way), but we can't really evaluate that until we have a better explanation of the closer's reasoning. I think that's a sufficient reason to vacate, so I'm not going to comment on the INVOLVED aspect at this time. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:56, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- (Uninvolved) Vacate as the closer provided no rationale whatsoever. Should a restriction on further closures by this editor be considered if this is indeed the second time their close has to be vacated at AN within a month? Charcoal feather (talk) 01:35, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- weak endorse and request the closer put more time into closing statements in the future. It's a reasonable outcome from the discussion. It doesn't provide the reasoning that got there. Sometimes you don't need that reasoning, sometimes you do. This should be an obvious "you do". At the least counting the !votes and summarizing the arguments is needed for a discussion this long and this close (in terms of numbers and policy). Hobit (talk) 02:17, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Hobit - One thing I’ve seen admins doing more and more is not writing any detail in their close. Just writing “Consensus to X”/“no consensus”. They say this is to prevent people challenging their close.
- I sympathise with your overburdened admins but this is absolutely the wrong way to go. I’m not even sure it works as intended since the close then get challenged for being insufficiently reasoned. But from a more deep point of view, if you can properly explain the consensus, then you may be wrong as to what the consensus actually was. FOARP (talk) 17:54, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
They say this is to prevent people challenging their close.
This is particularily prevalent in move requests, where even some experienced closers advice newer closers to be extremely succinct in their close, in order to limit the opportunity of editors to identify flaws in their close and challenge it. To me, this seems to be contrary to what we want in a close; if a close does have a flaw don't we want that flaw to be identified and corrected?- The goal in a close shouldn't be for the close to survive or deter a close challenge; the goal should be to correctly assess consensus, and if we have done so the close should naturally survive or deter a close challenge. BilledMammal (talk) 18:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Looking throughout all the text I've provided here, does it look like I'm avoiding adding words? lol - sorry, but that all struck me funny : ) - jc37 18:36, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- involved Vacate. A) This was a patently insufficient close for such a monster discussion. B) I wasn't really convinced by the original "involved" rationale, but after seeing Levivich's evidence, particularly Jc's bringing BilledMammal to ANI for his challenge to Jc's close just a month ago, I think that's actually just as strong an argument to vacate the close as (A) is. JoelleJay (talk) 02:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Which isn't what happened. They decided to
repeatedlyrevert the implementation of a close they didn't like and so I brought it to AN/I. And it was stated by others (not just me) that that was inappropriate. I presume they heard that and life goes on. I didn't bring it up, because I prefer to forget about such stuff and move on. It's when others won't stop or let things go where I may have to make a choice to disengage with them. But I haven't had that experience with BilledMammal. So there was no reason to think anything untoward of them. AGF aren't just a few letters we toss around. It's a way we operate at Wikipedia. And I will assume good faith about you or anyone until given evidence that I shouldn't. Are you suggesting that there is evidence that I shouldn't AGF of BilledMammal? - jc37 04:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC)- Small correction; I reverted once (twice, if you count the second revert that I self-reverted - either way, much less than "repeatedly") the implementation of the part of the close that went beyond the scope of the RfC and thus wasn't within your discretion as closer to implement. In retrospect, I should have just taken to AN, but at the time I felt that the close was so blatantly beyond scope that reverting the implementation was an appropriate action. BilledMammal (talk) 04:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- "repeatedly" is more than once, but, I'll still strike it, as perhaps unclear. And where I give you kudos, is that when I asked you to revert your second reversion, you did, and we continued talking. It was someone else's actions that exacerbated the situation which led to AN/I. - jc37 05:12, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Small correction; I reverted once (twice, if you count the second revert that I self-reverted - either way, much less than "repeatedly") the implementation of the part of the close that went beyond the scope of the RfC and thus wasn't within your discretion as closer to implement. In retrospect, I should have just taken to AN, but at the time I felt that the close was so blatantly beyond scope that reverting the implementation was an appropriate action. BilledMammal (talk) 04:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Which isn't what happened. They decided to
- I don't have a view on whether the close should be vacated, but I do think the rationale should be expanded. The RfC was created to try and find a method to manage the huge number of articles involved without having to deal with them one by one, a close saying "consensus...But rather that these should be addressed on a case-by-case basis" is surely consensus against? CMD (talk) 12:09, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate - <uninvolved>. On the questions as to whether the closer was involved, Thryduulf makes good points, but states that the reason involved close is a bad thing is not just bias but perception of bias. Levivich is quite right about how that bias may not be conscious but may then be more pronounced, not less. Here I think we can clearly give the closer a pass in that there was no intentionality, but this was an unintentional involved close, and per Thryduulf, that is still a bad thing because of the bias or perception of it. Secondly, and more importantly, RfCs, and other such discussions on Wikipedia consume a lot of editor time, all given freely, to engage in a discussion and seek a consensus. The editor hours represented in that RfC are huge. Closure is a thankless task (please, everyone, thank your closers!) but it is also very important that a closure of a discussion of this magnitude is undertaken carefully, thoughtfully, reading all the arguments, and summarising as to how a decision is reached. This should be particularly important with a no consensus close, which otherwise would become the default whenever an issue is hard. The closer does owe it to the editors who have invested all that time. Yes, it makes closure harder and even more thankless, but that is the job. This closure is inadequate, and per casualdejekyll, any close really does need to explain why it has come to a different position from the LUGSTUBS close. Thus this should be vacated and revisited. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:46, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Weak endorse - <uninvolved>. Thc close overall seems reasonable, so overturning it seems like a waste of time. The closing editor can learn from this exercise to be better prepared in the future. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 15:58, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate and suggest that we establish a panel of 3 to close this to forestall any further debate over this RFC Spartaz Humbug! 16:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Spartaz, a panel is a good idea for this discussion and for future similar RfCs. This is just an inherently contentious topic. Valereee (talk) 15:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Idk, WP:LUGSTUBS was fine with one closer (and is an example of a good closing statement). It wasn't challenged, and it was the second close. It kind of provides a roadmap. Levivich (talk) 15:53, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Levivich: The second close was challenged. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:55, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) FYI, the second close was challenged; Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive352#Close review for Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#RfC on draftifying a subset of mass-created Olympian microstubs. However, the close was endorsed by the community (as opposed to the appeal being closed as "no consensus"), which I feel supports the belief that it was a good close. BilledMammal (talk) 15:59, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Levivich: (edit conflict) See here. I do believe that a panel would probably have been a better option. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:59, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Idk, WP:LUGSTUBS was fine with one closer (and is an example of a good closing statement). It wasn't challenged, and it was the second close. It kind of provides a roadmap. Levivich (talk) 15:53, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- I disagree with mandating a minimum number of editors to evaluate the consensus view of a discussion. It is of course fine if those performing the evaluation want to do so in a team. isaacl (talk) 17:54, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Spartaz, a panel is a good idea for this discussion and for future similar RfCs. This is just an inherently contentious topic. Valereee (talk) 15:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate - first off, I disagree with the suggestions that there is a WP:INVOLVED concern here. But the close is insufficient. There is no vote-tally presented, and no attempt to engage with the strength of the arguments. In my read, some of the oppose arguments are weak and must be discounted; one in particular are the "this is against policy" opposes (RFCs can change policy, and also it is something that we already did once). The "back-door to deletion" complaints also ring hollow; a high-profile discussion such as this one is not a "back-door" process in the sense of it happening without attention. Some of the support arguments are also weak, but I won't litigate that here. The discussion should be re-closed with a better closing statement. Walt Yoder (talk) 19:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
one in particular are the "this is against policy" opposes (RFCs can change policy, and also it is something that we already did once)
- So by the same logic, if someone ran an RfC to say "in this particular group of articles, can we use original research and no published sources?" then all of the !votes saying "no per WP:NOR and WP:V" would be invalid, and we'd have to reargue the fundamental reasons that led to NOR and V becoming policy in the first place? RfCs can change policy, but this was not a proposal to change policy. It was a proposal to draftify articles. Whomever assesses consensus, per WP:CON, is supposed toincorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines
. i.e. weigh the strength of arguments according to established PAGs. In an extraordinary situation, the policy IAR can be invoked in order to further the spirit of our PAGs even when a proposal violates the letter of those rules. Otherwise, any proposal that isn't relying on IAR, and which is not attempting to change the policies/guidelines that have the broadest possible support, is subject to evaluation according to the arguments based in existing policy. Process is important. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:29, 18 August 2023 (UTC)- WP:OR and WP:V are bad examples; as core policies there is an argument that they, like WP:NPOV, are not subject to consensus. Further, those are content policies, not procedural policies; as policy is descriptive, procedural policies can be changed by getting a consensus to use a different procedure in a forum with a sufficiently high WP:CONLEVEL.
- That is what occurred here; this RfC implicitly asked the question of whether it was also appropriate to use the Village Pump to propose draftifying articles, and the community has already answered that, in line with WP:NOTBURO, with a solid "Yes", at the highest possible CONLEVEL - a cent listed village pump discussion with over 100 participants.
- In general, I don't understand the objections to using the Village Pump for this. Does anyone actually believe it would have been better to propose this draftification at AfD, where it would have been less visible and thus closer to coming in the backdoor - or is the only reason blind obedience to bureaucracy? In other words, how does this argument conform to the spirit of WP:ATD-I? BilledMammal (talk) 06:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- [checks to make sure] - yes, Wikipedia:Deletion policy is also a policy. Lawyering about the difference between content policies and "procedural policies", as though they don't enjoy the highest form of consensus, just seems empty.
Does anyone actually believe it would have been better to propose this draftification at AfD
No, because it's a misuse of draftspace. To be clear, there is no forum where proposing to go directly against policy would be more/less acceptable. To the extent you're trying to make an IAR argument, yes VPP is just fine. The objection is that you should instead follow the deletion policy for deletion, not that you should do exactly the same thing elsewhere. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Closing statement is insufficient (involved). The close is supposed to summarise the consensus. What we got is a summary of the summary. More work should have gone into this, and still should. No comment on closer WP:involvement. Folly Mox (talk) 04:02, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Involved, not !voting. Just want to argue one point: if a close is insufficient, it's better to re-close than to expand the original rationale, because the process of thinking about and writing a rationale shapes the eventual outcome; it has less value when done post-hoc. Also, jc37's comment that
If one writes too much, they can hear about it
is IMO not the right mindset to have; I empathise because this place can be rough, but detailed rationales serve an important purpose, which goes far beyond giving people grounds to contest a close. DFlhb (talk) 10:31, 19 August 2023 (UTC) - Vacate The close is fundamentally structurally in error and did not respond on the actual question of the RFC which was whether the articles should be moved out of article space. Instead the closer inferred that there was lack of a consensus for one particular way of doing that and incorrectly inferring that as being an answer to the actual question. Also for most of the other reasons cited this needs a new close. I would like to emphasize that such isn't and shouldn't be taken as a finding of wp:involved. I don't think that anything here in that area rises to that. At most there are indications of the closer having some opinions in this general area which is not an ideal situation either for the close itself of the even if just the optics of it but doesn't rise to the level of wp:involved. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, the question explicitly was:
- "Should the following 1,182 biographical microstubs, which were mass-created by Lugnuts and cover cricketers, be moved out of article space? "
- And the second sentence in the close was:
- "However, there is No Consensus that mass-draftification (mass-moving-out-of-article-space) is the correct solution for all of these."
- So yes, that question was directly answered. - jc37 17:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- There are a couple ways to look at this and under either the actual question was not evaluated. Taking it literally, the operative statement of the sentence was that there was no consensus for mass draftiication, and the "moving out of article space" is only a sidebar comment or, if "moving out of article space" is taken as the operative statement of the close, it was incorrectly derived as an inference from "no consensus to move to draft. To give an analogy, let say that the question is "shall we visit California?" And lots of people (50%) said "Let's visit Los Angeles" and 30% said "let's visit San Francisco" and 20% said "don't visit California". The close (and what you imply) in essence said "there was no consensus to visit LosAngelos and visiting Los Angeles is visiting California so therefor there is no consensus to visit California. Which is faulty. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:50, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- No. But to try to use your LA analogy - More like: Some people have decided that there is a lot of litter all over Los Angeles. But there's no agreement that everything called litter is litter, and also there was not only no agreement on the proposed solution to all of the "litter", but also no agreement on other counter-proposals either. So at this point, people will just handle the perceived "litter" situation through the normal processes. - Not the best analogy, but I was trying to shoehorn it into your analogy : ) - jc37 03:06, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- @User:Jc37: Smokey Joe and Folly Mox !voted for the articles to the userfied to Lugnuts (without being draftified first). I think this is what North8000 wants your closing statement to address. James500 (talk) 03:24, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- One of several alternate options/ideas which did not gain consensus. There's no purpose to list out all the different ideas which were tossed around. The discussion is there for anyone to read. And if they didn't have consensus, there's no real point. Besides, a "no consensus" result does not preclude further discussion on any of the proposals. - jc37 03:33, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- But your close stated there was a consensus that "these articles should be addressed", which suggests a majority were of the opinion that there was indeed an unacceptable amount of "litter". By my count (including non-!vote comments), at least 61% held this view and agreed the "litter" should be moved out of "LA" somehow. JoelleJay (talk) 04:46, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes - People generally agreed that "something" should be done, but there was no consensus on the "how", or even that "moving" was the best solution, or even that each and every item was actually "litter" that needed to be addressed. - jc37 05:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- More specifically the close needs to DIRECTLY evaluate the result to the question "Should the following 1,182 biographical microstubs, which were mass-created by Lugnuts and cover cricketers, be moved out of article space?" rather than incorrectly inferring that the answer to the draftify question is the answer to this one. North8000 (talk) 13:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, I understand, you want a "up/down" result about that question. And you're being told that there was no "up/down" result on that question. The "result" of the discussion was no consensus on that. Continually asking for a result which doesn't exist will not make that wanted result to suddenly spotaneously exist. - jc37 05:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- More specifically the close needs to DIRECTLY evaluate the result to the question "Should the following 1,182 biographical microstubs, which were mass-created by Lugnuts and cover cricketers, be moved out of article space?" rather than incorrectly inferring that the answer to the draftify question is the answer to this one. North8000 (talk) 13:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes - People generally agreed that "something" should be done, but there was no consensus on the "how", or even that "moving" was the best solution, or even that each and every item was actually "litter" that needed to be addressed. - jc37 05:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- @User:Jc37: Smokey Joe and Folly Mox !voted for the articles to the userfied to Lugnuts (without being draftified first). I think this is what North8000 wants your closing statement to address. James500 (talk) 03:24, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- No. But to try to use your LA analogy - More like: Some people have decided that there is a lot of litter all over Los Angeles. But there's no agreement that everything called litter is litter, and also there was not only no agreement on the proposed solution to all of the "litter", but also no agreement on other counter-proposals either. So at this point, people will just handle the perceived "litter" situation through the normal processes. - Not the best analogy, but I was trying to shoehorn it into your analogy : ) - jc37 03:06, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- There are a couple ways to look at this and under either the actual question was not evaluated. Taking it literally, the operative statement of the sentence was that there was no consensus for mass draftiication, and the "moving out of article space" is only a sidebar comment or, if "moving out of article space" is taken as the operative statement of the close, it was incorrectly derived as an inference from "no consensus to move to draft. To give an analogy, let say that the question is "shall we visit California?" And lots of people (50%) said "Let's visit Los Angeles" and 30% said "let's visit San Francisco" and 20% said "don't visit California". The close (and what you imply) in essence said "there was no consensus to visit LosAngelos and visiting Los Angeles is visiting California so therefor there is no consensus to visit California. Which is faulty. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:50, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, the question explicitly was:
- Voluntarily vacate would be my advice. I don't think rewriting the closing statement is a good idea; that's just asking for justification. JC37, thank you for bringing this here yourself, but if you do actually have an opinion on how an issue should be resolved, and you close it as consensus for what you personally would prefer, and someone asks you to unclose because in their opinion you might have been subconsciously affected by that preference, just go ahead and unclose. Let someone who doesn't have a strong opinion on the issue close it. (I'm sort of uninvolved here, followed the discussion, asked some questions and made some comments, but I never voted because I've gotten to the point I have no idea how the issue should be resolved. I did vote support in the first RfC, though.) Valereee (talk) 15:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- The issue as I see is that JC37 doesn't have an opinion about how the issue should be resolved - if they did they wouldn't have been so puzzled about BilledMammal's claims of involvement. Also, I know you aren't suggesting otherwise, but someone who !voted (either way) in the first RFC should not be involved in closing this one. Thryduulf (talk) 15:39, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Note - I added a clarification to (restatement of) the close [2]. It's essentially just restating what was said, but in a different way. In (re-)reading the above, I'm seeing a fair amount of confusion on "what the consensus was", and questions of: where is the listing of all the things that had consensus, ie what people agreed on. Well, the result was "no consensus", so there's not a list to make of what there was consensus of that they agreed upon. They didn't agree on the proposal, or on any alternate proposals. So anyway, please feel free to continue to discuss here. But I thought I should note that I added that. - jc37 18:23, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse. I have been watching this discussion for a number of days. I agree with the comments made by Jc37 in this thread, and I agree that a close that consists of a bald statement that "the community did not reach any agreement about such and such" is appropriate if that actually happened. I agree that there is no need to elaborate on that close if the lack of agreement is not so obsure that a person who read the whole discussion carefully would find the lack of agreement unreasonably difficult to detect without assistance from the closing statement. I therefore accept that the closing statement is adequate. I do not think that replacing Jc37 with another closer will produce a different outcome (and the outcome is not the outcome I personally wanted). I do not see any evidence that Jc37 is involved. The diffs and arguments that have been offered are not sufficient to prove that. For the avoidance of doubt, I participated in the RfC. James500 (talk) 04:25, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, I think we could remove a bit of further doubt...you were so opposed to draftifying that you said "If they are moved into the draftspace they will probably not be expanded or improved, because I am probably the only person willing to expand and improve most of them in the near future, and I will not expand or improve them while they are in the draftspace." (emphasis in original). It read a little coercive to me. :D Valereee (talk) 11:31, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Apart from the fact that you are quoting out of context:
- WP:DETCON says that "consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy". Consensus is not ascertained by the quality of the !voters on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of whether they have, or are perceived to have, an opinion about something.
- I think I should reiterate, notwithstanding that I should not have to, that I did not !vote for "no consensus", so I cannot be accused of being a "no consensus supporter", if such a thing exists. James500 (talk) 05:39, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, I think we could remove a bit of further doubt...you were so opposed to draftifying that you said "If they are moved into the draftspace they will probably not be expanded or improved, because I am probably the only person willing to expand and improve most of them in the near future, and I will not expand or improve them while they are in the draftspace." (emphasis in original). It read a little coercive to me. :D Valereee (talk) 11:31, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate per Casualdejekyll. The fact that the shortcut for this rfc is LUGSTUBS(2) is proof enough that any closer's rationale must justify a separate outcome by strength of argument.Mach61 (talk) 17:10, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- You know anyone can make a shortcut for basically any reason, right? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:40, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate as not representing the close. While numbers were such that such a close could hypothetically have been reached—per NOTVOTE—that would in itself have required thorough distillation of the strengths/weaknesses of both sides' arguments, this level of detail would be reflected in a nuanced, probably lengthy but certainly solid, close. This will not do. I'm sure this is not the first of this editor's closes overturned here either; is there a pattern? SN54129 18:32, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate and appoint a panel per Spartaz and Valereee, please.—S Marshall T/C 00:56, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - A panel of three administrators as closers, would be the best option. GoodDay (talk) 00:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Keep it closed (comment from involved editor) - The reasoning for the close was sufficient. There were multiple issues with the proposal and I don't see a conflict of interest here.KatoKungLee (talk) 16:39, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Keep closed per Thryduulf on the VPP page, "The Olympics draftification has not resulted in any objective improvement to the encyclopaedia and this is just more of the same." –Fredddie™ 02:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- While I stand by that opinion and note that it's lack of successful refutation is one reason why I think the closer arrived at the correct result, I don't understand how it speaks to whether the closer was involved or whether the close should be vacated for some other reason? 02:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC) Thryduulf (talk) 02:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate (involved) - Let me start out by saying that I would not have appealed this close and I greatly deplore the tendency now to appeal every single RFC close. In this case the closer self-appealed but I think this was in the (not unreasonable) expectation that the close would anyway be appealed. A panel close would probably be wise in this case in order to give some degree of finality to these closes. My objection to the close here is that the close was not well reasoned - finding consensus to do something is the situation where a closer should cut the Gordian knot and find some solution. Additionally, the level of consensus was similar to that of WP:LUGSTUBS so the closer should have at least indicated why this discussion should be closed differently. As in the review of the first LUGSTUBS close I don't really buy the argument that the closer was involved. FOARP (talk) 09:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I think this was in the (not unreasonable) expectation that the close would anyway be appealed
I wasn't planning to appeal over the WP:INVOLVED concerns; while I don't believe it was appropriate for Jc37 to close this discussion given their involvement in the topic area and I hoped that they would see that and revert the close, it also wasn't a concern that I would have brought here. However, if they had declined to explain their close - and based on their participation here they would have - I would have appealed on that ground. BilledMammal (talk) 10:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Endore (Uninvolved): I do not think the closer was WP:INVOLVED and has now expanded their close which I think is a reasonable reading of consensus. Lightoil (talk) 05:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate (involved). This was a weak, nonsensical, and insufficient closure - the whole point of such a mass RFC is precisely to "address" such a problem, not just acknowledge it. And blithely suggesting case-by-case analysis is just asking for discord - the whole point of the problem is that there are too many articles for AFD and bold redirections would likely start edit wars. Taking it to an RFC is the right and proper thing to do. Valid closes would be something like "Endorse draftification," "Partial endorse draftification under (circumstances)", "Take them all to AFD and deal with the giant backlog using the following procedure / limits", and "No, consensus is that these articles are actually fine." Saying that there's consensus there's a problem but not providing guidance on what to do about the problem is a non-close after such a long debate. For example, close mentioned listification, but if that was gonna be the close, you're going to have to be more specific about it: what if someone just keeps reverting a merge to a list? How should the lists be arranged? If a close really decided on that as a solution, it needs to say so: "Articles are to be merged to List of cricketers by [TOPIC]" or something. Suggest a panel close the next time this is closed. (Additionally, for the next closer, suggest that some of the rationales should be given little weight - specifically any vote that said it's against policy without further elaboration. Yeah, we know it's against policy, I'm very firmly against backdoors to deletion and surprise draftification of articles too, but the whole point is to discuss an exceptional case. Presumably bare "against policy" votes can be dealt with by an assurance that this doesn't establish precedent for non-Lugnuts creations.) SnowFire (talk) 01:58, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- There are reasons that these are (generally) time-limited.
- One benefit of a "No consensus" close is that it does not prevent continued or even new, discussion of the various topics. So (to continue to use the analogy from below), if you want a pony, then start a new discussion on the specific pony you want - the community couldn't decide (didn't have consensus) on this specific one.
- From your comments it sounds like you just want the closer to decide for you. And while that can be appropriate under certain circumstances, that's not always the case, and I didn't (and don't) think it was appropriate in this instance. You are of course welcome to your opinion. - jc37 05:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Jc37:: First of all, I disagree. There was sufficient consensus in that discussion to make a close. But I'm obviously involved so I won't belabor the point.
- Setting aside this particular debate and talking about any large RFC held on the Village Pump - in general, "No consensus" is a very poor close for these in general, for exactly the same reasons you describe as a benefit. We already had the long discussion, advertised on WP:CENT. It's time to make something of it. In a real court case, even an acquittal provides closure. It's okay to say "No, this proposal failed!" By saying "no consensus" and saying "start a new discussion", you're essentially saying that it's okay to, hypothetically, restart the exact same discussion in the same way that someone can renominate something for XfD that came up as no consensus, and everyone can copy-paste their votes over and wait for the new close. But that's ridiculous. We have a giant pile of consensus there already, with no reason to think that the situation has changed. The community just needs a result. That answer might be negative, and even a negative result is helpful. If you truly feel that the proposal isn't gonna happen, then reject it and say so, which if upheld, will at least guide what kind of proposal to be taken next, or if more proposals even make sense.
- You write "sounds like you just want the closer to decide for you." Closing such wide-ranging proposals is a big deal, yes! The whole point is that this is how the community addresses big problems and/or makes big changes, the kind of things that modify or suspend the usual policies. So yes, the eventual close should reflect what the community wants done and the best way to do it (or to say "nope, we're not doing it"), not just make a meaningless "no consensus". There's a reason why good closes are often rather long for such matters when the result isn't obvious. In general, if there's 25+ editors weighing in on a matter, you probably shouldn't make a "no consensus" close. SnowFire (talk) 07:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Much of what you just said is flat-out contrary to policy. It doesn't matter how "big" a dicussion may be, or the number of participants. If there is no consensus to do something, then there is no consensus. Not: "Well since so many people commented, I'm going to pick a side" - that would be wrong and contrary to policy. As I said, there are times when it may be appropriate for a closer to select an outcome by pulling a needle out of the haystack. But that wasn't appropriate in this case - YMMv of course. - jc37 07:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- The stance you describe is the incorrect one here, although unfortunately one that has been sometimes shared by other poor closers to the cause of the community's grief and time-wasting before. Now, don't get me wrong, "no consensus" closes for most parts of Wikipedia, especially low-turnout discussions, are fine. But the kind of discussions posted on CENT are different. They're closer to things like "Proposal to change this policy" where either the change happens or it doesn't, and further can empower broad actions to be taken. The closer is expected not to merely summarize the conversation, but also to get to the heart of the matter and decide what, if anything, the proper response to the issue is. It's very specifically the mechanism the community has to deal with large problems. Denying resolution to this breaks WP:NOTBURO by encouraging endless discussion. If someone re-runs an XFD three months later after a no consensus close, that's no big deal, but I repeat: would you seriously not object if this entire discussion was repeated for the next three months? Take a look at, say, Wikipedia:Good Article proposal drive 2023. A good number have red x with "no consensus to implement" but everyone understands this means "rejected." There are no proposals with a close of "On hold, maybe this proposal will pass, there's consensus it describes a real problem!"
- As a side comment, the reason that we have to have a hypothetical discussion about "can closers close in general" is also a warning sign here. If your close had more teeth to it, I might be able to say something more substantive, but instead I'm stuck having to simply assert that closers need to close. But this is a sign of the close's weakness, not its strength, that there's so little to nitpick over it, since it just doesn't actually say anything. Again, if you want to reject the draftification proposal, then just reject it (although hopefully with more explanation than the patchy one given). Don't just make a non-close. SnowFire (talk) 15:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- "No consensus" doesn't have a minimum or maximum of participants. Just because a discussion has many participants doesn't mean we should suddenly throw policy out the window.
- Yes, there are times when a closer should "pick something", but, based upon the discussion, this was not one of those times. Closer discretion is not a free pass to supervote whenever one wants. No matter how many participants there are in a discussion. - jc37 17:32, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Much of what you just said is flat-out contrary to policy. It doesn't matter how "big" a dicussion may be, or the number of participants. If there is no consensus to do something, then there is no consensus. Not: "Well since so many people commented, I'm going to pick a side" - that would be wrong and contrary to policy. As I said, there are times when it may be appropriate for a closer to select an outcome by pulling a needle out of the haystack. But that wasn't appropriate in this case - YMMv of course. - jc37 07:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
One benefit of a "No consensus" close is that it does not prevent continued or even new, discussion of the various topics.
But no consensus without explaining why there was no consensus does. BilledMammal (talk) 17:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @SnowFire:
Valid closes would be something like "Endorse draftification," "Partial endorse draftification under (circumstances)", "Take them all to AFD and deal with the giant backlog using the following procedure / limits", and "No, consensus is that these articles are actually fine."
the problem is that there was no consensus for any of those options so any close declaring one of those as the outcome would be a supervote. There was consensus that the articles are not fine as is, but there was no consensus that a mass move of them out of mainspace (to draftspace or any other specific location) was the right solution, no consensus that mass listification or mass redirection was the right solution, nor a consensus that they should be taken to AfD en mass. Thryduulf (talk) 06:15, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - I just wanted to chime in to endorse what SnowFire about
"Saying that there's consensus there's a problem but not providing guidance on what to do about the problem is a non-close after such a long debate"
. This site is addicted to just not doing anything about things that most people will acknowledge are a problem, but when it gets to the point of doing something about it so many just baulk at it for no better reason that any kind of action seeming extreme. Every single one of these LUGSTUBs would be likely deleted at AFD if brought there one-by-one but at the same time doing so is basically impossible and likely to be considered disruptive.A classic example is the airline destination lists I and a few other editors have been dealing with lately - we had an RFC on them that said "yeah, clear violations of WP:NOT" back in 2018 but when Beeblebrox tried to act on that consensus suddenly there was massive concern because that meant deleting all 400+ of them and Wikipedia just doesn't do thing like that. The result was the RFC was essentially just shelved - not negated, not cancelled, just put in the desk drawer and forgotten as too much of a problem. Fast forward five years, and we're on the 20th AFD in a row where deletion of these articles is almost universally endorsed.The closer in this case fully acknowledged that there was a consensus in favour of doing something in this case. They just baulked at doing what the majority of !voters endorsed: draftifying these articles that everyone knows don't belong on Wikipedia. Instead, the fact that there wasn't a super-majority in favour of draftification as the specific remedy, but only a majority, has been pulled out as a reason to default to the outcome that was only endorsed by a minority - doing nothing. Wikipedia is not a democracy, these discussions are not a vote per se - this applies also to the idea that a super-majority is required to do anything (which,incidentally, was also an idea disapproved at the last LUGSTUBS AN review). It's time to do something. FOARP (talk) 14:10, 26 August 2023 (UTC)- No. the closer has "balked" at saying there is a particular consensus, when there was not a particular consensus. And multiple people who want a particular action saying "I want it", doesn't change that.
- If it's time to "do something" then try proposing a different idea. Just because there wasn't agreement on "that particular pony", doesn't mean that, with further discussion, a ponythat there can be consensus for cannot be found.
- And I should note, there have been larger discussions than this that have gone back to the drawing board after a "no consensus" close (with closers different than me). So again, number of participants is immaterial.
- Also, think about all of the time (words, bytes) that people have spent in this close review, and think about if they had instead spent that time brainstorming new ideas.
- How you choose to spend your time as an editor is up to you... - jc37 17:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Also, think about all of the time (words, bytes) that people have spent in this close review
I agree; it's past time to close this close review. I've put in a request at WP:RFCL. BilledMammal (talk) 17:44, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Discussion about No Consensus (LUGSTUBS2)
- Split this discussion to a separate section. - jc37 06:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- weak endorse and request the closer put more time into closing statements in the future. It's a reasonable outcome from the discussion. It doesn't provide the reasoning that got there. Sometimes you don't need that reasoning, sometimes you do. This should be an obvious "you do". At the least counting the !votes and summarizing the arguments is needed for a discussion this long and this close (in terms of numbers and policy). Hobit (talk) 02:17, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- (This isn't so much about your specific comments (which I of course thank you for), you just provided a spot I could respond : )
- I've read all the comments here, and I keep re-reading my close. And I've re-read the past closes by Bradv and GRuban.
- And I'd be happy to clarify the close. But honestly, looking at the above, I'm not sure what people specifically actually want clarified.
- The numbers? No, I'm not going to do that. Consensus isn't a counting of heads, and saying that there were 60-some bolded votes that said this and 40-some bolded votes that said that, is wrong.
- Re-list all the arguments, essentially retyping out the entire discussion? No. The discussion is already there for people to read and it's a pretty lengthy one, at that.
- What's odd to me is this is an overall "No Consensus" close. So it's really isn't so much about what people agreed upon, but that they didn't agree, and never came to consensus to agree to do what was proposed. Even many who supported either did it weakly or with caveats.
- The part where I said there was "consensus" - that "something" should be done - was pervasive throughout. Very few liked the current situation, but they didn't like the proposed solution either. So, as a closer, I noted that, and suggested a way forward.
- I'm not sure what else there is to say.
- If you read GRuban's close, he states:
- "I'm trying to fill some pretty big shoes here; I'm an experienced editor, and have closed maybe 100 RfCs, but Bradv is not only an experienced editor, but also an experienced administrator, so it takes quite a bit of hubris to think I can do a better job, and I won't be surprised if there is another thread on WP:AN after this asking that my close be also reopened. But I am still trying hard so that there is not."
- To me, that seems like someone expecting to see WP:AN, and he even closed in support of the nom!
- Anyway, I'm not afraid of AN. The community is the community. We all act as an extension of the community. And here is where I get to hear what the community thinks. And I welcome feedback. I'm not perfect. No one is.
- But anyway, if someone still wants a "fuller close" that isn't just a whole lot of words added for the sake of adding words, I'm all ears. And happy to help. - jc37 04:05, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- IMO, it should be possible to at least reconstruct the reasoning behind a close summary for contentious RfCs. This allows other editors to understand how particular arguments were interpreted and potentially to identify any specific issues. It lends some amount of falsifiability to the closer's judgment. JoelleJay (talk) 18:19, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Jc37: In general yes, the total counts should play a role. And they do, per WP:IAR and just the way we do things around here. Sometimes the numbers and the strength of argument are on opposite sides, that that can get tricky. And yes, as JoelleJay says right above, folks want to be clear on how the outcome was reached and, in some cases, have some faith they were heard. I'll toot my own horn and give you an example of a close that I'm pleased with. I could give you some that I've done that were bad too if you'd like. But Talk:Reform UK/Archive 2#RfC regarding article split is a closing statement that was quite detailed because things were so hot and because a NC outcome wasn't possible (that the status quo was wrong was about the only thing folks agreed on). I think it made those who wanted a different outcome see that they'd been heard but that the other outcome had both more support and was probably more reasonable. For a discussion where the outcome is clear, there is no need to put in so much time (that took me more than an hour, maybe a fair bit more). But for one that's close (in strength or argument or numbers) it helps be clear on how the decision was reached. Hobit (talk) 14:40, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Except that that is not what you did in even that close you show as an example. You do not "count bolded votes" and then list the head count. You give a rough idea, and that's because there were some clear splits in the discussion that you felt worth noting. Doing that (or not) depends a lot on the discussion. My statement of "there are too many to list", wasn't that much of a hyperbole. This was a classic - people wanted "something" done, but they did not agree that "this" something was the way to go. Hence "no consensus". Not agreeing is not agreeing. - jc37 17:54, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Jc37:If you go back and re-read your close, there is no real sense of why you closed it the way you did. Was the count close? Were the strength of arguments close? Both? What were the basic arguments? What was the basic count? In a close discussion you should, IMO, summarize all that so that people can understand why you did what you did. I don't think you got to that point with this close, and it's pretty clear most people feel that way. Which is a shame because A) I think you got it right and B) I feel like you did all that in your head, you just neglected to share it with us. I don't know if you do math, but I teach proof-based math. And one of the things we try to get into the students' heads is that getting the right answer without showing your work has little value. You need to be able to explain to others how you got the answer. And that is, for certain, tricky. Finding the right level of detail is difficult for students. In this case, I think it's pretty clear your readers think you needed more detail. And, as in proofs, if your readers think more detail was needed, then, by definition, you needed more detail for that audience. Hobit (talk) 14:24, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how best to frame my response to this, but here goes. There are a couple parts to this, so please bear with me.
- Overall, the result was no consensus. Not: supported, not: opposed, but no consensus.
- And so your math analogy of "show your work for the proof", doesn't apply. Your goal is to explain the "how" of how a value was achieved. In a "no consensus" result no "value" was achieved.
- In math, even zero has a value, it's 1 less than 1, or it's 3 million less than 3 million, or whatever. It has a position on a number line, or on an x/y axis.
- But on wikipedia we aren't solving for x when we close a discussion. Indeed, typically (though not always - I'll get to that), we shouldn't be solving for x when we're a closer. That, in many cases, would be a super-vote.
- Those here who are asking for a more fuller explanation are essentially asking why the discussion was opposed. But I'm not saying that it was opposed. I'm saying there was no consensus.
- Do I understand the confusion? Sure. In XfD discussions, a "no consensus" result is (mostly) also an "opposed" result. See WP:NOCON?, which talks about status quos and such.
- But that's not what this is.
- What you seem to be asking for is Evidence of absence. And my response is: Read the discussion. Then you say: summarize the absence? Quantify something that isn't? Quantify something which does not exist? Please tell me how one does that without writing a book on philosophy.
- But let's set aside the issues with perceived confusion of the concept of "no consensus" for a minute.
- This discussion has another wrinkle to it. And it's that there was a consensus of "something". That "something" was not what was proposed, however.
- It's that there was a consensus that "something" should be done. So while there was no consensus on the proposed solution, and no consensus on alternate solutions, still there was consensus that "some solution" should happen
- And therein lies another problem. There are times that a closer can rely on "closer discretion" and pull a needle out of a haystack, and slap it on the counter and say "this is what we're going to do". But I didn't (and don't) think that was appropriate in this case. There really wasn't a strong enough argument for any of the suggested options, to do that.
- So where does that leave those who participated in the discussion, or even those who were watching the discussion with interest?
- (using yet another analogy lol) - They all got together and discussed whether they wanted the pony that BilledMammal was suggesting. They did not come to agreement about that pony. But the consensus was that they still want a pony. And here I am, apparently not explaining to everyone why they didn't get a pony. My answer: Because you didn't agree on what pony you wanted. But, they say, tell us how we didn't agree.
- Are you starting to see the issue here?
- So anyway, over the years, I seem to recall people talking about writing up something explaining the complexities of a "No consensus" RfC close. But it usually doesn't happen because these kinds of discussions supposedly don't happen very often. So writing that out has been seen as not worth the time invested. But I dunno. If we do, perhaps we can save the community from future AN discussions like this one. - jc37 00:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for rewriting the initial close, it has mostly addressed my concerns above. Rereading through the rephrasing and the original, something which jumped out to me is that the second one felt more cohesive. Hobit noted that "there is no real sense of why you closed it the way you did" in the first close, and part of that sense may stem from the appearance of cohesiveness. The first close had a number of sentence fragments that move somewhat haphazardly between points ("But rather that these should be addressed on a case-by-case basis (some individually, some as a part of a sub-grouping). Too many various concerns to list. Listification was also proposed.") in a way that requires a familiarity with the entire discussion to parse the full meaning. This fragmentary writing stands in contrast to the rewritten close and especially with the longer explanations given here. CMD (talk) 06:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the response. I still feel you're missing the point. Yes, you can prove something isn't there. In fact, in the classes I teach, that's what I mostly do. Probably the most significant proof is that there are problems no computer can solve. In this case, you could try to give a count and try to list the various options and make it clear why they didn't have consensus (both counts and arguments against). Saying "read the discussion" is the wrong way forward--part of the closer's job, IMO, when closing a big discussion is to summarize that discussion so people don't have to. But seriously think you for responding, it's much more clear to me why you choose to close the discussion they way you did. I don't agree, but I do understand. Hobit (talk) 17:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hobit - What you seem to be talking about (from your math classes) is "proving" (determining) a value, which you believe to exist, but which does not currently have a proof. (List of unsolved problems in mathematics for example). So the difference is simple. You start with a value, and all you are trying to do is prove the value exists.
- To put that in Wiki discussion terms, essentially, that's you saying that there is this "value" called a "consensus", and to "prove" (determine) it, you build out a discussion (a proof of concept) which can produce such a value, in a way that others can reproduce your findings.
- That's not what a closer does. In this case (to continue the "value" frame of reference), a closer starts with an existing discussion, with no preconceived notion of "value" to determine, and merely assesses the dicussion - as it exists. And should there be a value to be found, the closer may discover it in the discussion. If there is not, then there is not. A discussion does not always produce a consensus. Sometimes (and here's another - not great - analogy), when a group of people mine for gold, it may be that there is no gold in the mine, even if some of the miners want there to be.
- And yes - you and I are well into philosophy now : ) - jc37 12:39, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Jc37:If you go back and re-read your close, there is no real sense of why you closed it the way you did. Was the count close? Were the strength of arguments close? Both? What were the basic arguments? What was the basic count? In a close discussion you should, IMO, summarize all that so that people can understand why you did what you did. I don't think you got to that point with this close, and it's pretty clear most people feel that way. Which is a shame because A) I think you got it right and B) I feel like you did all that in your head, you just neglected to share it with us. I don't know if you do math, but I teach proof-based math. And one of the things we try to get into the students' heads is that getting the right answer without showing your work has little value. You need to be able to explain to others how you got the answer. And that is, for certain, tricky. Finding the right level of detail is difficult for students. In this case, I think it's pretty clear your readers think you needed more detail. And, as in proofs, if your readers think more detail was needed, then, by definition, you needed more detail for that audience. Hobit (talk) 14:24, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Except that that is not what you did in even that close you show as an example. You do not "count bolded votes" and then list the head count. You give a rough idea, and that's because there were some clear splits in the discussion that you felt worth noting. Doing that (or not) depends a lot on the discussion. My statement of "there are too many to list", wasn't that much of a hyperbole. This was a classic - people wanted "something" done, but they did not agree that "this" something was the way to go. Hence "no consensus". Not agreeing is not agreeing. - jc37 17:54, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
IMO on the actual question of the RFC (move out of article space) there was a consensus to do that. Why call that "that something should be done" instead of the actual question? And then IMO it was arguable/ possibly no consensus on which specific thing should be done to implement that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Actually as I see it there wasn't consensus that the "something" was "move them out of article space", certainly en mass. Thryduulf (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well of course my "take" on the results is arguable/ a matter of opinion. But not arguable is that is that it was the RFC question and what people were responding to unless they specified otherwise. North8000 (talk) 00:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The RfC question was
Should the following 1,182 biographical microstubs, which were mass-created by Lugnuts and cover cricketers, be moved out of article space?
and there was no consensus answer to that question. There was a consensus that something should be done with the articles, but no consensus that moving all of them out of article space (or anything else suggested) was that something. That is very different to there being a consensus to move the articles somewhere. Thryduulf (talk) 01:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC)- Please read the close closely. It said that there was no consensus for mass draftification. And then parenthetically implied that such is equivalent to no consensus to move out of article space. It made no direct statement about moving out of article space nor gave any indication that it evaluated that question directly/ specifically.:
- In logic terms this is incorrectly saying that if there is no consensus for the subset (draftification) , that implies that there is no consensus for the superset (move out of article space).
- Per my previous analogy, If the question is "shall we visit California?" and 50% said "let's visit LA" and 30% said "let's visit San Francisco the close in essence said: "There was no consensus to visit Los Angelos (visit California)
- Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Please read the close closely. It said that there was no consensus for mass draftification. And then parenthetically implied that such is equivalent to no consensus to move out of article space. It made no direct statement about moving out of article space nor gave any indication that it evaluated that question directly/ specifically.:
- The RfC question was
- Well of course my "take" on the results is arguable/ a matter of opinion. But not arguable is that is that it was the RFC question and what people were responding to unless they specified otherwise. North8000 (talk) 00:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- As this should be vacated anyways, I see no particular reason to discuss what the outcome "should" have been, and think a panel close would be helpful. SportingFlyer T·C 10:19, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- To note that I collapsed this section and was reverted by jc37 Spartaz Humbug! 20:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The revert seems odd to me? SportingFlyer T·C 22:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed. Very self serving if you ask me, Spartaz Humbug! 15:22, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Moving an endorse vote to its own subsection also seems odd to me. Levivich (talk) 15:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)- Threads are split out to their own sub-section all the time. I left their initial comments in place for clarity of the thread. Nothing more. - jc37 05:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Jc, in five years and thirty thousand edits, I've never before seen someone move a vote out of chrono order into its own subsection and respond to it. If it happens all the time, I missed it. Levivich (talk) 05:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, first of all, we don't "vote" here. Second, if you look, Hobit's initial bolded comments are still where they placed them. I merely copied them when moving the thread, in order to maintain context. And finally, as I said, it is not uncommon for discussion threads to be split out to their own sections. Sometimes threads are even moved to talk pages for further discussion. I'm sorry to hear that you've apparently never seen anything but enboldened straw polls. - jc37 05:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Jc, in five years and thirty thousand edits, I've never before seen someone move a vote out of chrono order into its own subsection and respond to it. If it happens all the time, I missed it. Levivich (talk) 05:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Threads are split out to their own sub-section all the time. I left their initial comments in place for clarity of the thread. Nothing more. - jc37 05:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- The revert seems odd to me? SportingFlyer T·C 22:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- This is WP:AN, the place to discuss a close, even a nac close, but, I think I'll just leave a post-closure note:
- I think my favorite line was: "...a "no consensus" outcome doesn't cut it, so there should be rough consensus to retain it..." - So essentially, that there should be consensus for no consensus. I have too admit, reading that struck me funny.
- Whatever others may think of the quality of the close (positive or negative), they definitely deserve kudos for being willing to read through all this. Thanks for taking the time to give this all a read through. And of course, thanks to everyone who took the time to comment. It was interesting. - jc37 00:36, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Pattern of not justifying closes
In this discussion, four RfC's were raised as having been closed by jc37 with inadequate justifications:
- Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#RfC on draftifying a subset of mass-created Cricketer microstubs
- Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Minor alteration to WP:NOTDIRECTORY
- Talk:PragerU#RfC: should the article have a sentence covering PragerU's profit off their anti-LGBT video?
- Wikipedia talk:Notability/Archive 73#Adding one new thing to the current SNG text
The first two were overturned here for that reason.
I went and looked at every RfC close listed at Wikipedia:Closure requests that was closed by jc37 since 2020. While some of these appeared appropriate, either due to sufficient explanation or due to consensus being sufficiently clear that an explanation was not needed, many of them fail to explain why the discussion was closed in the manner that it was; no summary of the numerical preferences of editors was provided, no summary of the arguments, and no assessment of the relative strengths of each argument as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy and guidelines.
Reading the discussion above, jc37 doesn't appear to believe it is necessary to provide such an explanation, and perhaps it wasn't in the past but the current standards of the community, as seen through the recent close reviews, is that it is.
jc37, would you be willing to commit to providing a more detailed close, explaining why you came to conclusion that you came to, for future closes that are not obviously "consensus for" or "consensus against"? From my brief review of some of the discussions listed below your assessment of consensus usually appears to be reasonable, but there is an expectation from the community that such a justification of the result is provided, and beyond that there is significant benefit in providing that - it helps guide future discussions, the process can result in you realizing your current assessment is incorrect, and the process can help other editors identify flaws in your close.
In the end, the purpose is to get the right result, and the process of explaining the close helps towards it.
List of all closes by jc37 listed at Wikipedia:Closure requests since 2020
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BilledMammal (talk) 11:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Interesting.
- I have to say, my initial impression when I read the above? WP:STICK.
- What I said in the discussion about AGF and you was true. But someone doesn't do what you have without having some bone to pick. I'm not sure what it is, and I haven't as yet looked through your edit history to see what could be sparking this. I'd rather not take the time to try to figure out whatever is motivating you in this. (I have a lot of pages on my watchlist due to past discussions, and I see that you also just questioned a close by TonyBallioni. I don't know if questioning closes that you don't like is a pattern with you either - as I said, I haven't looked.)
- So anyway, instead, I'll just talk about me : )
- First - I believe very solidly in the interdependence of WP:BOLD and WP:CON. And along with that, I think it's fairly safe to say that I'm rather well-versed in Wikipedia policy and process. And have contributed to it throughout various parts of Wikipedia.
- And I'm also happy to help.
- And I do think that clarifying a close is a way-of-life on Wikipedia, and has been for as long as I remember.
- I also know that when it's a discussion with many participants, if there are those who don't like the close, you may hear from them. I noted this to another closer, and his response is at the top of my talk page.
- I'm also aware that some people will choose to not close certain discussions. Whether for seeming wiki-political reasons, or whatever.
- I don't concern myself with attempting to play political games on Wikipedia. I just follow policy and process.
- And so, for example, if there is a discussion that's been open a month and a half or longer, I don't have a problem going to help out and close a discussion.
- And if they've been open awhile, that not-uncommonly means no one else wanted to close, for whatever the reasons.
- So am I surprised when those who didn't get the result they wanted question the close? No.
- And I have no problem with clarifying the close. As I did in this most recent case, and as I did when opening the thread above.
- What I won't do is violate policy and "count votes".
- And yes, I am aware that there are those who prefer a certain outcome will want the closer to count votes if they think that it will support what they want. And the reverse is true. If they want a result that counting votes will not support then they will question the closer on that count.
- Do I think that's true of everyone asking for clarification? no, of course not. But after years of closing discussions, I have seen repeated examples of this. So it would be dishonest to suggest that I'm not aware that such gamesmanship goes on.
- Anyway, back to the above. 2 things. First, I don't see it listed showing how long those discussions were open, though I do see it noted that they were listed at WP:CR, which isn't typically done with discussions getting prompt closes.
- Second, I'll offer this as a way forward: BilledMammal - If you think that the wider community consensus has changed and that a closer should count votes and should present counted votes or percentages, or note "majorities", because they should be used by the closer in determining the close. Then open an RfC at the WP:VP, and let's find out what the broader community actually thinks. But unless/until Wikipedia policy is changed, I am not going to violate policy unless there is a valid WP:IAR reason to do so. - jc37 13:15, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
But someone doesn't do what you have without having some bone to pick.
No bone to pick. I am just concerned, because it is very uncommon for editors to have RfC's closes overturned, but in the past two months two of your closes have been overturned for the same reason - insufficient justification. I don't think this is a problem that can't be fixed as it is just a matter of being willing to explain your thought process behind the close, and I am hoping you will be willing to commit to doing so - particularly since, as I said, your assessment of consensus usually appears to be reasonable.I see that you also just questioned a close by TonyBallioni. I don't know if questioning closes that you don't like is a pattern with you either - as I said, I haven't looked.
I question some closes, though only a small fraction of the discussions I am involved in. I questioned that one because it surprised me; while the !vote count was roughly equal, the strength of argument appeared to me to be quite one-sided. I don't plan to take that one any further than a discussion with the closer, however.- To respond to the rest, no one is asking you to assess consensus solely based on counting !votes. What is being asked if for you to provide an explanation of your close; explain your assessment of
quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy
, and explain how that lead you to your close. Sometimes that may necessitate explaining the vote count, if only to lead into why you found against the majority, but not always. BilledMammal (talk) 14:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)- Actually, the one above was "vacated" pretty much for the reasons I gave in the close. I said that there was no consensus for "the pony" you presented, but that there was a concensus that a "pony" was wanted. And so in the discussion above that was re-affirmed - that a "pony" was wanted. And now that that's been determined to be the case, all that remains is to see how the next person who closes, addresses that. Will they decide to go for your pony, some other pony, or re-affirm that no one agreed upon a specific pony? Or something else? No idea. I guess we'll see.
- But to suggest that I have not been willing to clarify any close just is untrue. Even your examples above discredit that assertion. What you seem to be saying is that you want me to clarify a close in a certain way. Your statement: "Sometimes that may necessitate explaining the vote count..." - is not something I am going to do. And I'm telling you that I'm going to stay following the policy on consensus until Wikipedia policy states otherwise. As I said above: "I am not going to violate policy unless there is a valid WP:IAR reason to do so." So until you have community-wide support of your assertion, that's all it is, an assertion.
- But here, think about it this way. Let's say I did what you suggest. What is my defense when the next editor asked me why I counted heads to explain the close. Do I say "well BilledMammal suggested that that's the thing to do"? Right, that'll fly really well. I'll stick to policy.
- In the meantime, I would encourage you to find someone you trust to talk with about how a "No Consensus" close varies both in result and in "status quo" based upon venue and type. I'm looking at the discussion at TonyBallioni's talk page, and also how you've characterized things on this page, and I'm wondering if that's an issue. I see from your talk page that you tend to work with Requested Moves. A "No consensus" result from an RM can be quite different than one from an RfC or an XfD. Anyway, just a suggestion.
- Regardless, I wish you well. - jc37 21:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Request restoration of some of my editing privileges
Last year, I made an unban request that was accepted at AN. One of the active participants in that request, User:GizzyCatBella, suggested adding two further restrictions to my editing, one of which was a topic ban from Eastern Europe broadly construed. I believe this editing restriction should be removed for the following reasons: 1) it is unnecessary: I have never been involved in disrupting pages related to Eastern Europe, so it is unlikely that I would start. 2) it is overbroad: it has hindered me in work cleaning up after an LTA, and more recently has regularly prevented me from working on certain paragraphs in entries related to (French) history, the French press, and French political figures (notably Emmanuel Macron, an article I've been trying to pare down per the consensus view that it is overlong). 3) there was no consensus for the restriction: only one person not sanctioned in the most recent case related to the Holocaust in Poland supported Gizzy Cat Bella's suggestion, possibly because they were not familiar with the topic area. The vast majority of people ignored it. 4) WP:BANREVERT says that edits by banned users can, and in most cases, should be reverted. As a result it seems logical that the effects of the edits by User:Jacurek requesting my topic ban from the topic area which had led to their banning should be reversed, especially considering points 1), 2), & 3). Thank you for your consideration. I have informed SFR of this request on his t/p. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 09:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. At the very least, in line with new information revealed in and around the latest arbitration case. El_C 14:13, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Can we get links to A) the discussion that generated the ban, B) the relevant ARBCOM case and C) anything else that is likely relevant to the ban? I'd like to hear from the closer of the discussion and the proposer of the ban why they took the actions they did and how they feel about them now. Hobit (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- A) what little discussion there was began after this ultimatum
- B) Signpost executive summary. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:42, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Also [3] is the entire discussion. @ScottishFinnishRadish: was the closing admin. Hobit (talk) 16:06, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- C) Here are two examples I reported to SFR about a month ago of the self-censoring I have to engage in to be sure to avoid gotcha' filings. SFR confirmed he would consider them topic ban violations despite being very tenuously related to that vast swath of territory. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 21:12, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. In all honesty, I don't recall interacting much with Sashi on wiki, and I'd have stayed away from this request if not for the extreme levels of battleground and incivility I've seen displayed by him at off wiki forum (WPO) in this thread directed towards a number of the participants of the ArbCom case they mention (and non participants, for example . At first I thought the account they were using there was a sock of Icewhiz himself. I have zero desire to see a user with some weird grudges and poor attitude to civility edit in the Eastern Europe topics. I recommend editors who consider lessening the restriction to read Sashi comments there (there are few dozens...).PS. The unban request from last year should be linked. My cursory look at it Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive349#SashiRolls_requests_a_!ban which I think is the most recent development mentioned, suggest Sashi is quite incorrect in framing this as related to GCB. There were dozens of participants in that discussion, and concerns were raised by many others (the closer wrote:
There were several responses with specific caveats, e.g. GizzyCatBella and Shibbolethink. Yngvadottir was also open to additional restrictionss
and the ban also includedOne-way interaction ban with VM, One-way interaction ban with Tryptofish
which suggest those editors are not very likely to hold high opinion of Sashi; and I know that at least VM is quite active in EE topic area. There's also more in the archives I don't have time to peruse: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive303#Unblock_appeal_by_SashiRolls (2018: unblock after an ArbCom block), Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive321#Site_ban_proposal:_SashiRolls (2020: site banned), Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive328#Ban_removal_request_of_SashiRolls (2021: appeal withdrawn) and a bunch of others. The community seems to have given that editor a second (third? fourth?) chance. Fine, I believe in reforming people and letting them stick around - but again, there is no need for Sashi to venture into the EE topic area; it does not seem like a good idea for anyone concerned, including himself.PPS. Sashi writes above "what little discussion". Well, that "little discussion" linked above (#Site_ban_proposal:_SashiRolls) was very little indeed - I stopped counting votes/comments around vote/comment ~50. Clearly, what I think as littleand what Sashi thinks as little are in quite different ballparks. Bottom line #2, I am not impressed by the framing of this request, which ignores almost all reasons those restrictions were implemented in the first place, suggests that the editor appealing has not learned how to behave better, and is just trying to use the fact that one of their critics got blocked a while ago as a 'gocha' and 'get out of jail card'. Nope. Try again in a year or two, showing that you were able to stay away from battleground mentality, and explain better why you want to join this topic area (which needs less, not more, drama and battleground).Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:54, 20 August 2023 (UTC) - Support. I've looked again through that long unban discussion (opened on December 24 last year, closed on January 15). I count 6 times I contributed there; I tried to help with brokering an agreement, and as part of that, I didn't object to the topic ban from Eastern Europe, which so far as I can see was proposed by GizzyCatBella at 22:11 on December 27 (SashiRolls' "ultimatum" link above), seconded by Volunteer Marek at 18:39 in response to my support !vote (
A topic ban from Eastern European topics, including Russia, would also be a minimum since I’m not the only one they’ve “followed around” in that topic area.
, and thirded by Shibbolethink at 15:13 on December 30 (echoing GCB's wording). I thanked ScottishFinnishRadish for closing the discussion, which was sprawling and I'd had no idea which way it would go. I appreciate their reasoning for implementing the unban with the addition of both the new topic ban and the new one-way interaction ban with VM (it should be noted here that that one-way iban will be a constraint on SashiRolls' responses here). But I have felt bad about not pushing back against the topic ban, because I didn't realize that it would affect SashiRolls' work far beyond political issues. SR has given the examples of Polish jazz (SR and I have different interests, my interest in jazz falls away sharply in the Big Band era and I hadn't even been aware of Polish jazz) and of someone involved in the purchase of a French publication who is from the Czech Republic. It's more of a limitation to SR's editing than I'd imagined, and I should have urged getting their response. Especially since a large part of the reasoning appears to have been things SR had said at Wikipediocracy. That's also the first thing Piotrus mentions in his !vote above. I don't think criticism on an off-wiki forum is an entirely fair basis to give someone a broad topic ban like this. For one thing, it's a forum (a Wikipedia-critical forum), the culture is quite different. For another, I and most Wikipedians can't see posts in the private sections. However, since Piotrus still finds some of SR's posts on WO to be unpleasant, and maybe there's stuff I can't see, or whose nastiness I am underestimating ... SR expressed willingness at the time of the appeal to stay away from discretionary sanctions/contentious topics, so why not walk back this broadly construed restriction to Eastern European politics, whatever the CT abbreviation is? I've looked at how SR is doing since the unban, steadily less and less (I wouldn't have known about this appeal if Piotrus hadn't quoted the close and thereby pinged me). I've seen them working away improving articles, and discussing civilly and logically on matters like Macron's terms/presidencies. I consulted with them almost immediately on a touchy article and have since then from time to time butted in on articles they were working on, mainly gnome edits like this one where I remembered there was a template workaround. I truly believe they've justified the trust we extended to them with the unban. The only time I recall seeing them get nasty was at SFR's talk page in March, when they asked for this editing restriction and the new iban to be lifted. So I advocate either lifting the topic ban or restricting it to Eastern European Contentious Topics / Eastern European politics. Yngvadottir (talk) 09:39, 20 August 2023 (UTC) - Oppose Basically per Piotrus. Dawid2009 (talk) 12:23, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- As this is a hybrid appeal/closure review of my close I won't make a bolded !vote, but I will share some of my thoughts. My initial close, which I explained to SR, took into account multiple editors' concerns including those who were neutral, and I found that in order to find a consensus to unban those concerns had to be addressed with the additional restrictions. Was that the only possible reading of consensus? Probably not, but it was the one I made. This appeal reads more like a challenge to that close than an actual appeal of community imposed sanctions as conditions for an unban.As Yngvadottir points out above, they were nasty at my talk page when they first requested that I remove the restrictions. During that interaction they made personal attacks and demonstrated that the concerns of those who opposed an unban were well founded. Specifically, that they view every disagreement as a battleground, and treat it as such. They were also "nasty" at Talk:Killing of Nahel Merzouk/Archive 1#undue weight where they brought up the possible nationality of another editor to ascribe a motive to their edits. They were rightly called out by other editors on the talk page for this behavior. This is more evidence that they should be as far from any contentious topic as possible, which was a common theme in the unban discussion, even among some of those supporting the unban. Those two examples clearly demonstrate that their statement that
I hereby promise you it will be very boring as far as PvP-drama goes
has not been fully adhered to.I would have much rather seen this as an actual appeal of the restriction, rather than a challenge of the close with a focus on a now blocked sock. They say above that there was no consensus for that particular sanction, but what I read was that there was no consensus for an unban without accounting for all of the qualified support. A focus on the good work they've been doing, and specific examples of the edits they would like to make would be a better appeal than complaining about the original sanction. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:17, 20 August 2023 (UTC) - Comment / Clarification As previously stated, I do not mind staying away from entries in the Eastern European area that are marked as contentious. What I object to is being banned from a continent without a single diff showing disruption. Piotrus above compared me to Icewhiz, presumably because I criticized off-wiki his on-wiki assessment of Glaukopis as a good source from 2012 to 2022. (nb: WP:BANEX). This strikes me as the same "guilt by alleged association" ArbCom saw repeatedly in the topic area, as in fact my only edits related to Icewhiz were to tone down his incendiary language. As for his misunderstanding concerning my statement about "what little discussion there was" concerning Jacurek's proposal (i.e. the one we're talking about here), I'm not quite sure what could have caused that. As Yngvadottir correctly said above,
SR expressed willingness at the time of the appeal to stay away from discretionary sanctions/contentious topics
See here. Saying that I should not be able to add uncontroversial information about foreign ownership of French journals, or write about, for example, Frédéric Chopin, Tomasz Stanko, André Citroën, or Marie Curie is punitive, not preventive. As such, especially given that zero diffs of on-wiki disruption in the EE area have been produced (either then or now), I would request that "broadly construed" be removed from the topic ban, if the ban is not removed entirely, as it really should be. The wording can be clarified such that it is clear that it only refers to contentious entries labeled as such. This is not a closure review; this is a very moderate and reasonable request that I be able, going forward, -- as said above -- to edit in my area of developing expertise without having to constantly look over my shoulder at sockpuppets past. SFR: Adding diffs that you label as "nasty", while neglecting to mention the actual name-calling ("racist", "islamo-gauchist") used by the individual in question (who, as the diff shows, was using dubious sources in the lede) does not show you in the most neutral light. I have understood that it would probably be wrong of me to call you an American, as that adds nothing to the discussion. With that acknowledgment, can we bury the hatchet, please? Yes, you made a mistake in banning me from half a continent on Jacurek's diff-less request; no, I won't hold it against you (you couldn't predict the ArbCom case and its conclusions concerning who you were dealing with), and no, I do not intend to get involved in the various EE battlegrounds, as I've said before. You'll notice that I am not appealing the other equally unfair (one-sided) special penalty Jacurek came up with... why? because peace is good. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:42, 20 August 2023 (UTC) - I don't see any basis for a challenge of SFR's close, which was well within discretion for closing a siteban appeal. Treating this as an appeal, though, I think narrowing to "Eastern European politics, broadly construed" would be reasonable—but with the understanding that that's a somewhat nebulous sub–topic area, and that SR should be very careful to not wander into (what anyone might reasonably perceive as being in) it when editing about EE topics. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 15:20, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think there is enough evidence specific to Eastern Europe for a tban on that subject, so I'd probably say go ahead and lift it within the parameters SR lays out. However, the kinds of comment SFR links above are why SR was blocked in the first place (personalization, insinuation, etc. -- which isn't to say I think SR was wrong on the content matter, of course). It's why I supported the initial block and expressed reservations about the unblock (though I didn't outright oppose). I suspect SR already knows this intuitively, but with the amount of scrutiny on his behavior, and on the EE space in particular, it's likely that if issues come up (specifically talkpage/interpersonal issues), a reblock is probably more likely than a re-tban. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- I became aware of this discussion because Piotrus pinged me (thanks), and would not be commenting here except that I was pinged. As long as the 1-way IBAN with me remains in place, I'm not really concerned with anything else, and won't stand in the way of what is requested here (that's a no-comment, not a support). I think the views of editors who have been directly involved in the Holocaust in Poland dispute are more relevant here than are my own. I see that Piotrus also pinged VM, and I think anything VM might choose to say here should have some considerable weight. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:51, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support I don't see if there was significant disruption in Eastern Europe area from this user. There is simply no harm in supporting this request. Orientls (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose full lifting, especially per ScottishFinnishRadish's comments in general and about behavior at Killing of Nahel Merzouk. Otherwise, I would have been more open to modifying the EE sanction had there been a clear attitude change. I had to deal with Sashirolls' relentless battleground behavior in the GMO subject a lot, and I don't wish that on other subjects. While I could be open to loosening restrictions in other areas they weren't the most disruptive, Piotrus' initial oppose is what reminded me of why SR was so disruptive. Whether it's the grudges they pursue, WPO stuff, etc. there really needs to be a high bar for recognition from SR on what they did and how they'd avoid it to return a topic. Instead, Sashirolls clearly seems to still be taking a WP:NOTTHEM attitude about how disruptive they have been and instead is trying to shift the focus to what others have done. That indicates a high likelihood of disruption coming into an area again from them if they still have that attitude.Now my mind can be changed as someone outside this particular topic, but it really depends on what those who have been followed around by SR have to say, like when Volunteer Marek said
A topic ban from Eastern European topics, including Russia, would also be a minimum since I’m not the only one they’ve “followed around” in that topic area.
at SR's site ban appeal. They at least would have a better read on the situation and have examples handy to further assess rather than the sidestepping going on with this appeal. If SR is addressing their behavior head on instead, then it's maybe time to look at what can be loosened. KoA (talk) 21:44, 20 August 2023 (UTC)- Well, I'm glad to hear your mind can be changed. My interactions with Piotrus are here. You can see that I have not followed him around in EE. Our second closest interaction is this very thread. Anyone interested in verifying KoA's claim about "relentless battleground behaviour" can substitute "KoA" for "Piotrus" in the Edit Analyzer Tool to find our limited interactions. (Or, much more to the point, you can substitute anyone else's pseudo who should happen to claim I've followed them to a wiki page in EE and caused disruption). You will find... nada. I don't think calling for the support of the WMF Edit Interaction Analyzer tool is considered canvassing? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 23:02, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comments like this are pretty illustrative for those who have dealt with SR before when it comes to sidestepping their behavior. Anyone can read the 2020 site ban for examples of the battleground behavior, or concerns at their 2021 appeal, or the 2023 appeal. If someone wants examples of battleground behavior in general, there are plenty of AEs you can quickly look up too.[4][5][6] For following people the interaction bans they have already highlight that, like with how SR followed Tryptofish around to the point they're under a one-way interaction ban[7][8][9] That last link should be pretty indicative of how bad the battleground/hounding was getting in the GMO subject.
- That's why I stress why a serious demonstrated change in attitude is needed for SR to even think about editing any contentious areas. For EE specifically, it looks like that actually originated less than a year ago at SR's site ban appeal. SR is engaging in some strange wiki-lawyering with #4 in their appeal that since GizzyCatBella was one of those supporting a topic ban, they should should be free of that restriction because that one account even though the community agreed additional restrictions were needed for consensus. The close of their unban appeal also cautioned them to stay away from any contentious topic
That said, SashiRolls should, as Objective3000 said, stay away from all DS/contentious topics and administrator noticeboards. My very best wishes rightly pointed out that it would be difficult to make a full list of topics and editors SR should stay away from, but hopefully they follow Iridescent’s sage words, "you are topic banned from anything remotely controversial". . .
The EE sanction is as much for SR's own protection as it is to protect the rest of the community, so it's not something to entirely do away with. - If there was a clear attitude change, then sure, look at tweaking it so it's not quite so broad. If more EE topic editors have suggestions for possible tweaks to the sanction, I think that should still carry some weight. The WP:NOTTHEM attitude in SR's comments is not helping that though. To paraphrase the unban appeal close, the community didn't trust SR carte blanche in contentious areas. What I'm seeing here so far isn't helping build that trust at all. KoA (talk) 01:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, I'm glad to hear your mind can be changed. My interactions with Piotrus are here. You can see that I have not followed him around in EE. Our second closest interaction is this very thread. Anyone interested in verifying KoA's claim about "relentless battleground behaviour" can substitute "KoA" for "Piotrus" in the Edit Analyzer Tool to find our limited interactions. (Or, much more to the point, you can substitute anyone else's pseudo who should happen to claim I've followed them to a wiki page in EE and caused disruption). You will find... nada. I don't think calling for the support of the WMF Edit Interaction Analyzer tool is considered canvassing? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 23:02, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support - The best way for an editor to prove themselves in these situations, is to give them a chance to do so. GoodDay (talk) 02:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per Good Day, Orientls, El_C and the thorough reasoning of Yngvadottir. Jusdafax (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Like SFR I had deep concerns about SashiRolls behaviour at Talk:Killing of Nahel Merzouk. Despite that, I was originally just going to ignore this thread because it seems fairly distinct from SashiRolls particular problems. However seeing them here trying to once again defend the indefensible, I can no longer hold my tongue. Frankly I think SashiRolls should be site banned again. Failing that, the more areas of the encyclopaedia we can keep them away from, the better. Let's be clear what happened at Killing of Nahel Merzouk. On an article about French scandal relating to the treatment of French people of black or Maghrebi origin by police and to some extent by society in general, SashiRolls chose to refer to someone who they knew '
was born and bred in Mauritius
' and was now a 'lawyer in France
' [10] as "the (Indian) person defending this anti-Muslim material
" [11]. In other words, SashiRollls knew this person was at a minimum a resident of France yet chose to ignore the editors connection to France and instead emphasise one and only one particular aspect of their identity irrelevant to anything related to the article or dispute. I'm assuming that SashiRolls wasn't explicitly aware that Varoon2542 was 'Naturalised french
' at the time [12], nevertheless they shouldn't have been surprised by this. I don't defend Varoon2542's use of 'islamogauchiste
' in response, that was clearly wrong and two wrongs don't make a right so no matter the provocation it should never have happened. As I've said before, 'xenophobia and racism
' is a bit of a wash. I don't think they should have said it, but I would also have opposed sanction over it given the circumstances. Ultimately of course, this is an appeal of SashiRolls sanction. So whatever another editor may have said in response to what SashiRolls had already said is largely moot anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 07:10, 21 August 2023 (UTC)- I'm not even sure if Varoon2542 has ever actually identified as "Indian" the closest I found was "indo-mauritian" [13] but maybe it was somewhere else. I decided at the time not to investigate since frankly it's a minor aspect of this and I wasn't reporting it anywhere. I would note however that if someone has only ever identified as "indo-mauritian", it's fraught to call them "Indian" without qualification unless you're sure it's okay with them. Nil Einne (talk) 07:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I've notified Varoon2542 of this discussion since I directly brought up their behaviour and although I wasn't the first one, it doesn't seem they were notified before. Nil Einne (talk) 07:14, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Background / context: On 4 July, the page Nahel Merzouk protests was protected due to persistent disruptive removal of the section on BJP misinformation related to the protests (see here and a specific example). As Nil Einne likely knows, the AN3 thread on Varoon2542 was closed as stale on July 25. source I thought this was a good decision, as Varoon did indeed stop edit warring. I struck the "offending" word as soon as I became aware of his distress and apologized on his t/p for the imprecise designation. The tension between Muslims (17%) and Hindus (49%) in Mauritius is indeed largely irrelevant, as noted. The edit warring of blogs and far-right commentators into the lede was not. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 08:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I was hoping to clarify what I said above about the article I got hit by an edit conflict so I'll just say it here. I want to emphasise why SashiRolls behaviour is particularly troubling here. For those unaware, the article is a French scandal starting with the killing of a 17 year old French youth by the police and initial misleading statements about that killing and which has resulted in protests and riots which in part arise from concerns over the treatment of French people of black or Maghrebi origin by police and to some extent by society in general. Not surprisingly as documented in that article, suggestions have also been made that these people a number of whom were born in France to French citizens, are somehow not French. So of course having something very similar on the article talk page, where an editor choses to ignore an editor's Frenchness, yes not born in French but a lawyer in France and as we later not surprisingly found out, naturalised French, and instead just call them an "Indian"; I find very troubling. That the editor who did this has then spent the next month or so defending or semi defending this behaviour whenever it came up I find even more troubling. Nil Einne (talk) 08:23, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per El C and Yngvadottir above. I didn't think there was a compelling reason at the time for the topic ban in the first place. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:03, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose because of some truly nasty exchanges in the (Redacted) WPO thread mentioned above. Yes, they have different standards there (I am not a member) but as I recall (Redacted) required a fair amount of moderation from the moderators. I was going to try to find some quotes, but frankly I found it distressing to re-read some of that stuff again, even though I absolutely was just not buds with GizzyCatBella, and presented evidence against her at the Arbcom case. (Redacted), which is SashiRolls' name over there, made a lot of cryptic aspersions that seemed unwarranted at the time, and why do we want any more of that? I have not, as far as I know, had any interaction with this editor, perhaps because I have mostly been involved in World War II and the legal system when it comes to France. However my comment would be that although we mostly manage to settle things without drama in the French TA, things that might seem to be uncontroversial aren't always. I'm actually rather uneasy to hear that someone who has displayed that level of malice is editing a BLP. Elinruby (talk) 22:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Your memory seems faulty. I also haven't been all that much work for staff over there at all, though I did somehow inspire management to make me a proper avatar and find me some Michelin stars. Not sure how you learned on-wiki what my pseudo over there might be, though. As for malice & BLPs, the irony is that you are linking to a page where there are concerns expressed about the hostile editing of a BLP... -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- See, this is an example what I mean by cryptic aspersions. 1) Your link above takes me to a blank search form. Not sure what it is supposed to prove and I don't really care enough to figure out what that log id I see in the url might be. 2) I didn't learn it on-wiki. You have discussed your various bans quite openly in a public-facing forum. If we are going to point at WPO, people should know what they are looking at 3) The courtesy link on my post above, assuming that that's what you're talking about, goes to the WPO discussion of the Holocaust in Poland Arbcom. Probably that monster thread does include a discussion of somebody hostilely editing a BLP -- there was a lot of that going on -- but not by me, as you seem to be implying. I am quite certain of that, since I almost never do anything with BLPs, and definitely not in Poland. So. You should either provide some specifics, or apologize, if you ask me. I came back in here to unharsh my judgement a bit in response to Serial Number 54129, and I am still going to do that, but you're proving my point, and I will still be an oppose vote on this, for whatever that might be worth.Elinruby (talk) 04:28, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- 1) I logged out to doublecheck: as anyone can verify the public log I linked does indeed show you thanking me for an edit:
10:55, 15 March 2023 Elinruby thanked SashiRolls
... as I recall related to my addition of references to Je suis partout before I added it to a hatnote to a page you were eventually blocked from editing (I haven't looked into it so I don't know the details, nor is this the place for you to provide them as it had nothing to do with me). 2) This used to be a violation of policy, I don't know if it still is. 3) You linked to page 2, where the BLP of Jan Grabowski is discussed. You are not mentioned in the discussion of the BLP on that page you linked to, as ctrl-f verifies, so I'm not sure why, after reading and linking the page, you say above that I'm implying you were involved. As I recall, you only were mentioned much, much later in that sprawling thread (and not by me), when you had an interaction ban placed on you for your exchanges in the topic area. 4) thank you for your copy edits to sections I had not yet looked at on the Macron article. They were improvements to the page. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 11:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)- pro tip: NOTTHEM 1) Ok then. Maybe a mobile thing, don't know. In any event, yes I thanked you, I do remember that now, along with absolutely everyone else that contributed at all to the remediation of that HiP article. I am, yes, currently page-blocked, because apparently I don't let other people work on the article. I *will* say that this has done *wonders* in terms of people working on the article. And no, this has nothing to do with you, except that you appear to think it is relevant here. Thank you for further proving my point. 2) People keep saying Wikipediocracy is not Wikipedia. 3) Sorry, I was confused by the fact that you were saying this to me for some reason. And actually the 2-way i-ban had nothing to do with my
exchanges in the topic area
, but as you well know I can't talk about it. No, it has nothing to do with you except that for some reason you are bringing it up. Thank you for further proving my point. 4) You are welcome, and lest there be any confusion, I will say again that do not think any of what I fixed was caused by you. It looked like French speaker + MT + much moving of text. I did not get into the apparently contentious page split discussion. Elinruby (talk) 16:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- pro tip: NOTTHEM 1) Ok then. Maybe a mobile thing, don't know. In any event, yes I thanked you, I do remember that now, along with absolutely everyone else that contributed at all to the remediation of that HiP article. I am, yes, currently page-blocked, because apparently I don't let other people work on the article. I *will* say that this has done *wonders* in terms of people working on the article. And no, this has nothing to do with you, except that you appear to think it is relevant here. Thank you for further proving my point. 2) People keep saying Wikipediocracy is not Wikipedia. 3) Sorry, I was confused by the fact that you were saying this to me for some reason. And actually the 2-way i-ban had nothing to do with my
- 1) I logged out to doublecheck: as anyone can verify the public log I linked does indeed show you thanking me for an edit:
- See, this is an example what I mean by cryptic aspersions. 1) Your link above takes me to a blank search form. Not sure what it is supposed to prove and I don't really care enough to figure out what that log id I see in the url might be. 2) I didn't learn it on-wiki. You have discussed your various bans quite openly in a public-facing forum. If we are going to point at WPO, people should know what they are looking at 3) The courtesy link on my post above, assuming that that's what you're talking about, goes to the WPO discussion of the Holocaust in Poland Arbcom. Probably that monster thread does include a discussion of somebody hostilely editing a BLP -- there was a lot of that going on -- but not by me, as you seem to be implying. I am quite certain of that, since I almost never do anything with BLPs, and definitely not in Poland. So. You should either provide some specifics, or apologize, if you ask me. I came back in here to unharsh my judgement a bit in response to Serial Number 54129, and I am still going to do that, but you're proving my point, and I will still be an oppose vote on this, for whatever that might be worth.Elinruby (talk) 04:28, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Your memory seems faulty. I also haven't been all that much work for staff over there at all, though I did somehow inspire management to make me a proper avatar and find me some Michelin stars. Not sure how you learned on-wiki what my pseudo over there might be, though. As for malice & BLPs, the irony is that you are linking to a page where there are concerns expressed about the hostile editing of a BLP... -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support with the usual sense of exhaustion brought on by the argumentum adopocrisy (the ablative for calling on WPO threads, I believe). No harm no foul here, play on. This is a simple PERM request, at the end of the day, but with much muddying of the waters along the way. SN54129 22:38, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I respect your exhaustion. However the WPO posts are still an indication of personality, which gives me pause. But fine, in response to your remarks I just took good look at Emmanuel Macron, which is SR's own example of their work. It badly needed a copy-edit, which probably had nothing to do with SR, and yes, it is way too long, as they say. The talk page has nothing egregious, but it still isn't really an example of being boring and uncontroversial, and there seems to be a lot of bold going on, and not enough discussion imho. That is all I know and if it isn't helpful, oh well, it is all I know. I'm going back to being a content editor now. Elinruby (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support I had supported unblocking SashiRolls and it seems he has been abiding by his commitments. I don't see any evidence of disruption in Eastern European area that would cause me to oppose this request. Capitals00 (talk) 08:02, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support and would also happily go for Tamzin's suggested narrowing of ban to EE politics. The overly broad ban is getting in the way of some useful non-contentious contributions and was pushed for by a sock. And WPO has a different standard of discourse to here.--Dronkle (talk) 16:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support - I don't see any use in this overbroad topic ban and the fact it was proposed by a sock of someone later sitebanned for disruption seems pretty unjustified. Let him edit and if actual disruption happens then the topic ban or a siteban can be revisited. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 16:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per El_C, Yngvadottir, Orientls, Good Day, SN, Capitals, Dronkle, John Galt, et al., each of whom make good points that I won't repeat here. The TBAN shouldn't have been imposed in the first place, and if we start getting into what editors write on WPO, we'll be here all day sanctioning people. Levivich (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support the lifting of what seems to be an overly broad ban that isn't really preventing any actual problems. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Neutralhomer unblock request
As we all know and saw, I was blocked on October 20, 2021. I went to the defense of an editor who I preceived was being bullied and I took that defense too far. I displayed behavior that was not conducive to a collabative enviroment such as this. For reference and per request of notification, I was blocked by Floquenbeam. I don't believe the issues that the community saw will be raised again as I am currently under the care of a psychiatrist and a therapist who are helping me with my anger and preception issues. Full disclosure, I am also taking two new medications which seem to be working quite well. I have more of a thought process instead of a react and think about it later process. As mentioned above: I have started editing at CVillePedia, a wiki for the City of Charlottesville, as I will soon be a resident there. As one would expect, I am editing mostly their radio station articles (TV station articles to come). I have incorporated some of the templates from WP:WPRS within that project. Granted, it hasn't been a month, but I have caused exactly zero waves in my less than 30 days within that project. I remain open to caveats to my unblocking including 1RR, interaction bans, and a daily edit count limit among others. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
:I will attempt to respond to everyone, if I get wordy, please don't hold it against me. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Copied from this edit of 20:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC) — Trey Maturin™ 20:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Neutralhomer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- The above user is requesting an unblock. Their unblock request is on their user talk page. They have expressed that they are willing to answer questions and concerns promptly, and will do so on their user talk page. @Floquenbeam: who asked to be notified as the blocking admin. There is an extensive discussion on the talk page already, including prior unblock requests and the initial block notice. I remain officially neutral on the matter, and I am only acting to open the request here at WP:AN. --Jayron32 18:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. So... do people comment here? or on NH's talk page? Either is fine with me, but I think it would quickly turn into a mess if both places were used. I'd suggest that be decided (or clarified) first. User:Deepfriedokra, did you have one or the other in mind? User:Jayron32? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am undecided on either. I was merely checking some CAT:UNB requests, and noticed this one needed to be posted at WP:AN. I am of two minds (and in some ways no mind at all) as to where the discussion should happen. The advantages of happening here is that the normal !voting process works better here. The advantage of having it there is that it would keep everything in one place. Not sure how to proceed. Don't we normally have these discussions on this board? --Jayron32 18:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- We usually have the discussion here, copying any responses from the requesting user from their talk page to this page. --Yamla (talk) 18:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Normally, yes. But I don't quite understand what DFO and NH and one or two other admins intended in their conversation at User talk:Neutralhomer#Deepfriedokra. Floquenbeam (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am undecided on either. I was merely checking some CAT:UNB requests, and noticed this one needed to be posted at WP:AN. I am of two minds (and in some ways no mind at all) as to where the discussion should happen. The advantages of happening here is that the normal !voting process works better here. The advantage of having it there is that it would keep everything in one place. Not sure how to proceed. Don't we normally have these discussions on this board? --Jayron32 18:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. So... do people comment here? or on NH's talk page? Either is fine with me, but I think it would quickly turn into a mess if both places were used. I'd suggest that be decided (or clarified) first. User:Deepfriedokra, did you have one or the other in mind? User:Jayron32? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I have noted on NH's talk page that further discussion should take place here and that interested editors will copy their comments over. This will increase immediate drama, but will decrease ArbCom-level future drama. Revert me at will, I'll get over it. — Trey Maturin™ 18:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Generally, we copy the unblock request over to WP:AN and comment at WP:AN -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Prior threads, to save duplication of search effort:
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive340#Unblock review of Neutralhomer. January 2022. No consensus to unblock
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive343#Neutralhomer, requesting an unblock. May 2022. Unblock declined; no CBAN
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive350#Neutralhomer unblock request. March 2023. Withdrawn
- Folly Mox (talk) 19:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- To save others some clicking around: Global contribs, SimpleWiki contribs, Cvillepedia contribs, and for those unfamiliar with it, Cvillepedia stats. Levivich (talk) 19:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
— Copied from NH’s talk page Trey Maturin™ 06:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)For those unfamiliar, CVillePedia is the Wiki for Charlottesville, Virginia, locally known as C'ville (among other spellings). I will soon be a resident of Charlottesville, so I am working on that Wiki, as it is a better fit than Simple (as previously discussed). - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- To save others some clicking around: Global contribs, SimpleWiki contribs, Cvillepedia contribs, and for those unfamiliar with it, Cvillepedia stats. Levivich (talk) 19:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. I'd wondered how Neutralhomer was getting on; I seem to have missed the March 2023 appeal. At the January 2022 appeal, I took too long typing a comment advocating starting again with a new unblock request, then played a part in clarifying that the block had not become a community ban (see the unhatted section below the appeal); in May 2022, I advocated unblocking with restrictions and mentorship. This is a more satisfactory unblock request (on point and well expressed) and I am very glad to see the constructive participation at the Charlottesville wiki, as well as at Simple (let's please not judge an editor for recognizing that they are not a good fit for Simple and instead finding somewhere else they can usefully contribute). As I have said previously, Neutralhomer has made a very large number of constructive edits in the past, and in a topic where he has rare expertise. (It has also been pointed out before that there is a long stretch of years between his prior blocks.) Mindful of Wikipedia not being therapy, I appreciate his disclosure of his reasons for confidence that he will be less reactive and emotional in future if his editing privileges are restored, and I believe him. Time has passed, his circumstances have changed, he's demonstrated trouble-free and useful work on other wikis, and he is volunteering to be subject to edit restrictions. In my opinion, he deserves a new chance, although clear edit restrictions such as he suggests might be advisable to allay community concerns. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Understands why they were blocked, credibly promises to discontinue the behavior in question and edit constructively. That's good enough for me. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Conditional support I think NH has taken time away to truly assess the issues (on/offline)that led to their block, and this appears to be coming from a more solid place. I also think they had a track record of productive editing before the last few years happened. Together with whatever limits are decided on, if any, I think NH needs to remember that we're all volunteers. While some of us might be willing to help edit in a specific area, we cannot be voluntold. I suggested mentoring which somehow led to I should mentor NH, which was not what I intended nor was it something I have capacity for. My hesitancy here that leads to the conditional is that NH has received outside help in the last few months which is commendable, but that cannot be guaranteed here. Just my .02. Star Mississippi 02:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Not sure what it would take for me to be willing to support the return of someone who called me a racist for absolutely no reason, but
I went to the defense of an editor who I preceived was being bullied and I took that defense too far
somehow fails to persuade me. I will leave the !voting to editors who can evaluate this request more fairlysince they weren't targeted by your diatribes, but please do understand that every time I see your username I will remember what you said about me.LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)- Still going to leave the !voting up to others, but I will note that I accept @Neutralhomer's apology. If you are unblocked, I will not hold our prior interaction against you. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- The very weakest support possible; at first reading the unblock request seems to hold everything the community could want in such a request, self-awareness, a modicum of regret, reasons why the disruption will not happen again.... With a second reading, however, there doesn't seem to be any real acceptance of the awful behaviour that unravelled previously; it doesn't actually blame the other editors, as the previous requests did, but it doesn't say much other than
I [went] too far
, either ~ too far? ~ so far across the line that a community site ban was seriously considered. I truly believe in this community, i believe we are open and accepting and doing a great thing, and that Neutralhomer can benefit us and for that reason i'd like to see this be successful. I also believe that we owe more to our current members than to those who were once and essentially exiled themselves and now want to come back. For those reasons, i do support, but i suggest that stringent editing/behavioural conditions be attached. Not like, "Don't call other editors racist," but more along the lines of "A single reactive outburst means you are banned for good." Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 06:12, 24 August 2023 (UTC) Oppose(hopefully provisionally). I hate to do this, and I'd love to see NeutralHomer back. But I see no mention whatsoever in this appeal about those disgraceful racism accusations against Lepricavark. And I can not support an unblock while that remains unaddressed. Should it be addressed while this appeal is in progress, I'd be prepared to change my stance depending on whatever NeutralHomer might say. (I know the kind of thing I'd need to see, but he has to work it out himself). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)- In the light of the apology (and other comments) posted below, I'm going to change to cautiously Support an unblock. NeutralHomer says the words might be hollow now, but I never look at an apology like that. Obviously I can't speak for Lepricavark, but I always value a genuine apology - and in my opinion this one is genuine. In fact, I'm convinced that, apart from the obvious bad times, NeutralHomer is an honest and caring person (I have personal experience with autism/Aspergers that guides me, but I don't want to go any further on that route). I do get what Cullen328 and others say below, and they're people whose opinions I value. But I'd like to see the community give NeutralHomer, with his new health plan, one more go. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- (EC) Oppose And ban. Look at the block log, and the causes for the blocks. Going back over a decade. The idea that somehow they have radically changed as a person so these issues will not happen again is insane. And it would be a disservice to the future targets of their behavior to lift the block when we know there is a very high risk of them doing it again. Enabling editors like this is why huge amounts of volunteer time gets wasted dealing with them, and ultimately ends up at arbcom (see BHG). Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: To support is to get your ass broken on The 'Ocracy, people. And per OiD. SN54129 08:31, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose I will openly disclose that I was involved in blocking Neutralhomer in 2020 and 2022, and this request brings back vivid memories of the bizarre misconduct in both of those cases. But my blocks were nowhere near the first. This editor has been blocked over and over and over again, going back to 2007, which is 16 years ago, according to my calendar. We are assured that the editor is
under the care of a psychiatrist and a therapist
and that the editor isalso taking two new medications which seem to be working quite well
. I have a son in a similar situation, and I extend trust to him only as he truly earns it. We have heard such claims before, and yet this editor, who I believe has good intentions on their good days, repeatedly goes off the rails and spreads chaos and disruption and damage to other editors in their wake. Personally. I would expect to see multi-year prolific problem free contributions to other Wikimedia projects before I could support an unblock on the English language Wikipedia. Cullen328 (talk) 08:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC) - Oppose as I said in response to the last request: I count 21 separate blocks including 4 indefinite blocks. The reasons cover most of the possible block rationales including incivility, harassment, edit warring, sockpuppetry, personal attacks and "Don't say that editors should be executed". Many of these blocks were undone with some conditions or a promise to change behaviour which obviously haven't worked. I don't think the project is likely to benefit from unblocking someone with that kind of record. Hut 8.5 11:16, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- To write what I wrote not even 6 months ago: Oppose unblock and Support Site Ban I think we are at the point where a site ban might be best. It's becoming clear the community does not want to lift the block on NeutralHomer. Their block log is extensive to say the least, and as Cullen said above this goes back now 16 years. It's not just a recent string of events that has done this. We've gone past any last chances at this point and it's time to end this once and for all. Wikipedia is the "encyclopedia anyone CAN edit" not the "encyclopedia anyone SHOULD edit". This is not a criticism of the person mind you, just that I don't think their mindset will work collaboratively with the community anymore. RickinBaltimore (talk) 11:29, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- (ec) Support. This is somewhat reluctant; I would like to have seen a clear and direct apology to Lepricavark for calling them a racist. I also think NH should have accrued a year of constructive editing elsewhere rather than 30 days. But, too late for that now. I truly believe that the combination of a psychiatrist, a therapist, and medication is very likely to lead to a very different outcome this time around and on that basis, it's worth a shot. Obviously, any resumption of the prior inappropriateness would result in an immediate, indefinite (and, frankly, permanent) block. I'm optimistic for the future and believe people can change (particularly with therapy and medication). However, NH's past behaviour may have soured the community on any reasonable possibility of an unblock. If so, NH, I sincerely hope you can be a constructive editor elsewhere. en.wiki is just one site. --Yamla (talk) 11:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Yamla: Could you clarify what you mean by "too late for that now"? Why is it too late? Is there any reason why NH can't be asked, still, to generate a year of constructive editing elsewhere before being unblocked? DeCausa (talk) 21:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per Cullen and OID. I'm still not seeing that they really understand that it wasn't the defense of another editor, or even the accusations against other editors, but the entire pattern of behavior - the instant springing to being offended and then going to full on attack mode. Until that's fully internalized, I can't support unblocking. Ealdgyth (talk) 12:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. I'm looking at this block log and an unblock request that boils down to: "I currently still actively need a psychiatrist, a therapist and medication to deal with the issues that led to my blocks, but at least I've been active in the following community for almost 30 days and its Recent Changes page doesn't yet display signs of wiki-wide drama caused by me". I can't take this appeal seriously. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:57, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- FWIW, this is the best unblock request I've seen from NH. But I do have one issue, which I hope won't come off as self-pitying. This was the unblock request he was going to use on Monday. I think everyone here knows that request would have crashed and burned. But instead of posting it here, I asked if he was sure about it, and suggested why it should be changed. He called that gravedancing and snark (and then he seems to have taken my advice...). At this stage, it's not like my feelings are hurt, but doesn't this demonstrate a continuation of an underlying battleground attitude just below the surface to pretty much everything? I just don't consider 30 conflict-free days on a wiki with 10 active editors as evidence that his battleground days are behind him. I really wish he'd waited longer, and that there was more reason to believe that this block was the last. That block log is pretty strong evidence to overcome. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Taking full responsibility, and was usually a very good editor before, but with some obvious problems that he is getting help with. While Wikipedia is NOT therapy, half the people here are on meds or getting therapy, so it seems hypocritical to not allow this this one last chance to someone who has demonstrated problems in the past, but has demonstrated a lot of good work as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support, with trepidation - I think this is a very well crafted request, and I appreciate that NH has disclosed personal information that he was not strictly required to, as I believe it does help the community with assessment. It is perhaps a fault of mine that my subjective life experiences have led me to believe in basically endless second (and third, and fourth...) chances, but it is where I am. Obviously, NH will be under heightened scrutiny if only informally, but I also can certainly see a case for some constructive restrictions as a condition of the unblock. I obviously don't know the specifics of what you're dealing with, NH, and I don't seek to, but please trust me when I say I can definitely empathize in a general way. Which leads me to my trepidation--I support an unblock, if only on the principal of WP:ROPE, but NH, I do worry that Wikipedia may not be a healthy place for you--I fear that the community presents perhaps a greater threat to you than you do to the community. That's not an argument against unblocking, but it is a sincere suggestion to take time and meditate upon if and how you should participate here at Wikipedia. That said, a Happy Friday Eve to one and all. Dumuzid (talk) 15:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Too much risk involved in an unblock, for too little potential benefit. As has already been demonstrated (e.g. at this ANI thread from January 2020 [14]), negative behaviour has already had consequences beyond disrupting the community, and damaging article content. A contributor who thinks it is appropriate not just to engage in off-Wikipedia canvassing but to contact the subject of a biography to ask unsolicited deeply-personal questions about sexuality in furtherance of a content dispute has no place on Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- To add to this, I would like to make it clear that I consider Neutralhomer's response to my above oppose, as posted on his talk page, [15] to be utterly disingenuous. The individual concerned (who I'd prefer not be named here, given the invasion of privacy involved) didn't 'get in touch' with Neutralhomer, as his own statements at the time made entirely clear. Instead, the individual was contacted by Neutralhomer, with the specific intention of winning a content dispute based around a single ambiguous word in a social media post, relating to unverifiable claims regarding the individual's sexuality that were of no relevance to their notability. Neutralhomer was blocked for harassment, and topic-banned from the individual's BLP as a result. This is all documented in the ANI thread I linked above, as well as at Neutralhomer's talk page [16] and on the relevant BLP talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- My nature and history makes me want to show grace and forgiveness for people who are making progress with mental health issues. And I'm a big believer in the idea that a place like this can be a very good stepping stone to in-person interactions. My desire to see volunteer time and energy not wasted with BS is what stops me from supporting. So I'll sit this out. Come back in 3-6 months showing sustained good work and interactions at the city wiki and I'll be a lot more likely to support. And enjoy Cville. It's a nice town with a very strong board gaming community that goes back a long time. Hobit (talk) 17:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per previous supports, with fingers crossed.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Noting appellant is much more gracious this time around. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- I believe the past should be left in the past when possible and that appellant has changed quite a lot. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Noting appellant is much more gracious this time around. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support based on apology and time that has passed. --SouthernNights (talk) 21:47, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Weak support - If we consider that the misbehavior associated with this lengthy log of blocks is so egregious that there are absolutely no circumstances under which an appeal can be successful, then we are effectively wasting our time here. On the other hand, if we are predisposed to show forgiveness for sufficiently worded appeals, then we need to accept that we may never receive one that is perfect. The disclosed life circumstances of this editor will at worst be meaningless and lead to an immediate reblock, or at best will hopefully lead to a productive editor. So this may hopefully be worth a try, but this is truly the very, very, very, very, very, very, very last chance. Cheerio, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 23:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- This is where I think the maybe c-ban, maybe not back and forth did NH no favors. It needs to be crystal clear whether he's: welcome to edit/not welcome edit yet but potentially down the road given x changes/never welcome, or at least not for a good long window, so please stop asking. I say that as someone who was a solid oppose in prior discussions and found their conduct frustrating, at best. Star Mississippi 01:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support - I would support an unblock with an understanding that there will never be another chance after this. --RockstoneSend me a message! 02:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support if and only if all of the following conditions are imposed.
- Complete ban on describing any edit as "vandalism". NeutralHomer has had a lot of trouble distinguishing vandalism from good faith editing.
- Indefinite WP:0RR restriction. NeutralHomer has not shown good judgment when reverting.
- Indefinite anti-bludgeoning restriction, such as a maximum of one edit to each discussion page in a rolling 24-hour period.
- Indefinite accusation restriction: Not to accuse any editor of racism or any other prejudice; and not to suggest or imply that any editor is prejudiced in any way.
- No emails restriction: Not to use the email another editor feature.
- Last chance clause: No more short term blocks, ever. Any further block for misbehaviour to be indefinite.
- I still have qualms and misgivings even with all these conditions.—S Marshall T/C 08:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per their extensive block log and Talk page. I !voted oppose on an unblock in 2022 and am not persuaded now. Jusdafax (talk) 12:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose...but possibly wavering. When I saw the original request with the "I took that defense too far" weasel words formula he used in previous requests i was going to be a definite Oppose. But his apology to Lepricavark (below, added after the request was opened) is the first time he's shown some real recognition of the indefensibility of what he said. That seems to be a big step forward and seems to be genuine. However, two things still concern me about the request. The first is that the 30 days on a local Wiki without incident doesn't seem to be very good evidence of a new leaf turned over. The second is the outburst and attitude displayed on his talk page just a few days ago (in the lead up to this request emerging) doesn't fill me with confidence. He was still going with "I think my previous unblock requests (here, AN, ANI, and UTRS) are good enough reading material to get the general idea" and people should be focussing on his work at CVillePedia (in the last 30 days) rather than his history. That was on 21 August. The apology, if genuine, is a big turnaround in attitude in such a short time. DeCausa (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Weak support - Several opposers mention the block log. I'll note that most of the block log is 11+ years old. There wasn't much action there in the 8 years between 2012-2020 aside from a brief edit warring block and a "clumsiness" block which led to an unblock less than an hour later. To read the opposes above, it sounds like NH was consistently blocked over the years rather than blocked 11 years ago, and then things were fine for the better part of a decade. Cullen's block in 2020 is concerning, and then there are of course the blocks/modifications still in effect. In other words, "just look at the block log" is not as persuasive to me as it is to some. I'll admit I don't have that much experience with NH. I do see some evidence of really problematic behavior, but for some reason I'm inclined to think another chance is in order. I'd urge any closing admin to consider whether there are and one-way IBANs that should be instituted first, if this happens, and would advise NH to really meditate on the reality that if this is accepted and he winds up blocked again, that'll realistically be the end of the road on Wikipedia. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support NH seems to be taking responsibility (including getting IRL help). That's a dramatic improvement from his last unblock request(s). To my knowledge, NH's last major issue before 2021 was way back in 2007 (issues between that timeframe AFAIK were minor). NH's had his share of issues over the years, but if we didn't give multiple chances, I myself wouldn't be here today. I get why some wouldn't be comfortable unblocking NH, but the worst that can happen if he goes back to his old behavior is to just block again. A conduct probationary period is probably the way to go if there's any conditions (although given his block log, the community/admins might not be so patient next time around). An umpteenth chance for sure, but not hold NH's hand this time necessarily.—Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support I do wish requests like this came with a summary of initial reasons for blocks as well as links to the initial controversy.
- Summary of what happened: A self-inditifying Hispanic editor raised a complaint in ANI in which they expressed their suspicion that race may be behind what they felt was a hostile treatment by an admin. Neutralhomer, who seemed to have a negative view of this admin, came to their support. The discussion turned very acrimonious and personal attacks and/or 'behavioural concerns' were expressed on all sides. The hostile exchange continued on their talk page (see old version), where Neutralhomer accused a group of editors for racism. Neutralhomer was also subject to personal attacks: they were referred to as 'classless' and was criticised for using 'buckwheat' an allegedly racist slur. After warning by an admin against making allegations of racism, they persisted and was given an indefinite block. They have appealed this block of a few times.
- My views: While wikipedia does in the abstract acknowledge systemic bias, the community generally considers it unacceptable to insinuate any sort of racial bias in any specific instance. As one admin put it in this controversy "Do not, even in vague suggestion, accuse editors of racial bias" (Ritchie333). Nonethtless, Neutralhomer persisted and was blocked. The only justification for a block as per WP:NOPUNISH is to prevent future disruption. I don't think a continued block is needed, since he has indicated he will be more collaborative in the future. I advice Neutralhomer to present his views more succinctly and dispassionately, as it will be more effective. Jagmanst (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Replies from Neutralhomer
- @Lepricavark and Boing! said Zebedee: I apologize for what I said. Hollow words, I know, considering it's been said, that bell can't be unrung, and will always hurt and for that I am sorry. Those words, I know, are meaningless, but hopefully my actions are. I do apologize and I am sorry. This is why I am working with a therapist and psychiatrist to address problems that were raising their heads (which we all saw). I can only say "I'm sorry" and promise that it won't happen again. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Lepricavark and Boing! said Zebedee: Thank you both. Lepricavark, I appreciate you accepting my apology and, if allowed, look forward to seeing you out there. Boing!, thanks for the support. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Cullen328: I actually have you to thank for that 2020 block. Had you not done that, I would never have met some amazing people via Twitter. Had you not, I never would have done some introspection on myself, worked with two amazing people who I owe my life too, did a LOT of thinking (basically all one could do in 2020-21), and came out (publically as well as on my personal social media accounts, now here) as PanroAce Trans. So, thank you for that. I owe ya one. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Serial Number 54129: Could you translate that, please? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Only in death, Hut 8.5, and RickinBaltimore: I can see I am unlikely to change your respective minds, but I'd like to try. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @LindsayH: I am very conversational when I speak. So "too far" is a very shortened version of "so far across the line that a community site ban was seriously considered". So, when I say "too far", I did/do mean I royally screwed up in ways that can't easily be put into words. All of that said, I do support your terms for coming back in addition to mine (0/1RR, daily edit limit, interaction bands). I basically welcome all terms up to and including tell me to "go take a hike". - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Yamla: Therapy continues (and will for a very long time) today at 10a. Thank you for your support. I do appreciate it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Copied from NH's talk page by — Trey Maturin™ 12:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @AndyTheGrump: Actually Ms. Perrette did get in touch with me and we had a nice conversation, which was a refreshing surprise. No personal questions were ever asked. I actually apologized for the mess that was going on (at the time) on her Wikipedia page. I would never ask someone personal questions regarding their sexuality. As for my "canvassing", I was interacting with a community who viewed the actions of Wikipedia as "erasure". I communicated with them, explaining the procedures of Wikipedia, and the process as it was going forward. Most of the people in that conversation had never edited Wikipedia, so they were confused with the entire conversation. I acted to bridge that gap. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @AndyTheGrump: I won't respond to your latest post. Suffice to say, it will do no good. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Hobit: Also, from what I have seen, several rather large trivia spots as well and at least 2 old-school arcades. I love me some trivia, a good arcade....and board games. That part I didn't know, you'll have to let me know where. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Hobit: Dude, you rock! I will definitely have to check this out. Hopefully by this time next month I'll be in Charlottesville (housing issue is delaying the move). I will be checking out all of the arcades, trivia nights, etc. I bookmarked it, so I won't forget. :) Thanks! - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:47, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Ealdgyth: The "in defense of" is context, my line of thinking. Absolutely none of my behavior in that line of thinking was good or proper. Reprehensible might be a better description of my behavior. But the "in defense of" description was context, nothing more. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Rockstone35: That is definitely understood. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Copied from NH's talk page by — Trey Maturin™ 09:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- @S Marshall: Those are all doable. I'm open to any and all restrictions. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:37, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Copied from NH's talk page by — Trey Maturin™ 19:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Second-level replies copied from NH's talk page by — Trey Maturin™ 04:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Why isn't crypto an ECP subject?
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Blockchain and cryptocurrencies is said to be modeled after ARBPIA, including its 1RR provision. So why does ECP not apply to it (yet), especially with ARBPIA also calling for ECP? FMecha (to talk|to see log) 13:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Because ECP was not part of ARBPIA's discretionary sanctions regime. (Indeed, at the time PIA was decided, ECP didn't exist.) The ECP restriction was added in PIA3 (2015); it wasn't until PIA4 that the PIA CTOP was harmonised and the PIA1 and PIA3 sanctions were put in one case. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v Source assessment notes 14:40, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Understandable then... but I thought crypto being an ECP subject matter would fit to curb down spam/COI editing on the subject even further. FMecha (to talk|to see log) 17:32, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- A lot of individual crypto pages have been placed under WP:ECP by administrators since 2018; see WP:General sanctions/Blockchain and cryptocurrencies#Page level sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 17:47, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Understandable then... but I thought crypto being an ECP subject matter would fit to curb down spam/COI editing on the subject even further. FMecha (to talk|to see log) 17:32, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
User DeFacto
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It seems evident that DeFacto is engaging in an ongoing pattern of edit warring, repeatedly reverting my contributions on Nadine Dorries while vaguely citing Wikipedia policies.[18] In some cases, he referred to my edits as nonsense which is evidence of personal attacks.[19] On one occasion, DeFacto has even undone my edits when I highlighted their clear WP:POV bias, dismissing it as personal attacks [20]. This consistent employment of ambiguous policy references and repetitive mentions of nonexistent concerns strongly suggests an effort to promote a conservative bias on Wikipedia. It has been pointed out by other editors as well.[21] It's worth noting that DeFacto seems to have faced multiple blocks in the past due to similar behavior. In light of this situation, I kindly request your assistance in addressing this matter. Your support would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all. 92.1.168.50 (talk) 14:01, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Comment: One more revert: [1] 92.1.168.50 (talk) 14:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- DeFacto has reverted you twice, and asked you to go to the article talk page to build a consensus for your edits. Why did you reinstate the edit, which you know was contested, and start a thread here instead of going to the talk page to discuss the matter and working to establish a consensus with other editors? (Thought - is this BKFIP?) Girth Summit (blether) 14:12, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Consensus? For what? He is the only one who disagrees. (What is BKIFIP?) 92.1.168.50 (talk) 14:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Per Girth Summit, this should be discussed on the article talk page where the appropriate level of coverage for Dorries non-resignation (and in particular how much should be in the lede) can be agreed. Note that it is correct that we shouldn't have stuff in the lede that isn't covered in the body of the article. In addition, it is usualy unhelpful to accuse other editors of political bias - as Dorries is being heavily criticised from both left and right, that claim doesn't really stick.Nigel Ish (talk) 14:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- This is clearly a disingenuous report, made by a disruptive editor. You can see from their edit history that they are not here to build an encyclopaedia, but to cause trouble. Not only do they revert rather than engaging, they also make unnecessary personal attacks in their edit summaries and on article talkpages:
- in response to a reasoned revert they said this: [22]
- then added this to the article's talkpage: [23]
- I warned them about that previous one and they restored it and added this: [24]
- -- DeFacto (talk). 14:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Comment: Three Revert Rule and WP:Edit Warring in Nadine Dorries by DeFacto [1] [2] [3] [4] 92.1.168.50 (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Number 1 isn't a revert though. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Haha, of course it isn't. Why did you erase this? It's interesting how the situation has now escalated to being labeled as vandalism. It's worth noting the way you seem to selectively apply rules to align with your own objectives, similar to how you handle reversions of others' edits. A discussion is ongoing on the talk page, and it's worth mentioning that your absence from that discussion is noticeable. This page itself isn't meant for the discussion at hand; instead, it falls under the guidelines of WP:3RRNO. It's my hope that the moderators step in to address the situation. 92.1.168.50 (talk) 17:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- I corrected my misunderstanding, that's all, which is a normal and acceptable practice as no replies had been made. If I was you, I'd stop digging now, if it isn't too late already. And beware of WP:BOOMERANG. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Four reverts in less than 12 hours. I hope we see a response from some moderators. 92.1.168.50 (talk) 17:47, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- When you say
A discussion is ongoing on the talk page
, which one do you mean? -- DeFacto (talk). 18:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)- I have removed a conduct discussion unsuitable for an article talk page ([26]) and semi-protected the article for a year now. Regarding the restoration of content others have objected to in good faith, WP:BLPRESTORE (and thus a requirement to gain a consensus for those favoring inclusion) applies. 92.1.168.50 has unnecessarily personalized a content dispute and may be blocked from editing if the behavior persists; a detailed warning can be found on their talk page. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Nothing the IP has said makes me less suspicious that this is BKFIP trying to cause trouble again. Personalise a dispute, attempt to goad their target into violating NPA or 3RR and then escalate rapidly to AN/ANI is very much their MO, and the geolocation is about right. Girth Summit (blether) 16:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I have removed a conduct discussion unsuitable for an article talk page ([26]) and semi-protected the article for a year now. Regarding the restoration of content others have objected to in good faith, WP:BLPRESTORE (and thus a requirement to gain a consensus for those favoring inclusion) applies. 92.1.168.50 has unnecessarily personalized a content dispute and may be blocked from editing if the behavior persists; a detailed warning can be found on their talk page. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- I corrected my misunderstanding, that's all, which is a normal and acceptable practice as no replies had been made. If I was you, I'd stop digging now, if it isn't too late already. And beware of WP:BOOMERANG. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Haha, of course it isn't. Why did you erase this? It's interesting how the situation has now escalated to being labeled as vandalism. It's worth noting the way you seem to selectively apply rules to align with your own objectives, similar to how you handle reversions of others' edits. A discussion is ongoing on the talk page, and it's worth mentioning that your absence from that discussion is noticeable. This page itself isn't meant for the discussion at hand; instead, it falls under the guidelines of WP:3RRNO. It's my hope that the moderators step in to address the situation. 92.1.168.50 (talk) 17:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Number 1 isn't a revert though. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Page creation request: Wikipedia:Help:
Since Wikipedia:Wikipedia: redirects to Project namespace, can someone create Wikipedia:Help: to redirect to Help namespace? (Sorry if this is not the correct format) LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 16:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Seems reasonable.
Done --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:49, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 17:03, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
AFD snowball?
For admins who like doing BOLD closures, we have a dynamic discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mug shot of Donald Trump which will probably quickly have a hundred opinions given the AFD tag on the article. Liz Read! Talk! 05:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am heavily involved, but a look by an uninvolved administrator may lead to editor energy being redirected to improving the article instead of the AfD debate. Cullen328 (talk) 08:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm on it. WaggersTALK 12:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Done WaggersTALK 12:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm going to revert given the discussion on my talk page - a few people don't agree with the SNOW close so it makes sense to let it run for the full week. WaggersTALK 20:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- You were right the first time: there is no possibility of that discussion coming to any conclusion other than "keep", it should be closed with no prejudice to re-evaluating in a reasonable timeframe (say, a few weeks from now). I say this as someone who thinks a merge is a more appropriate outcome. (Also at least one of the people on your talkpage doesn't understand the difference between 'speedy keep' and 'snow keep', even though you linked the essay -- le sigh.) --JBL (talk) 23:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm going to revert given the discussion on my talk page - a few people don't agree with the SNOW close so it makes sense to let it run for the full week. WaggersTALK 20:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think SNOW appliess here. Since there are now apparently articles appearing about this AFD discussion in the media, things will only snowball. Liz Read! Talk! 00:47, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Probably safest to just follow procedure and let it run a week. There were multiple objections to the snow close and mentions of DRV. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:36, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Involved, but SNOW definitely applied and seeing it re-closed as such is hopefully vindicating. —Locke Cole • t • c 06:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm on it. WaggersTALK 12:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
User:Barabashenjatko, violation of WP:PAID
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
For details see Ukrainian Wiki noticeboard. Short story: Barabashenjatko made paid contributions using Ukrainian freelancing site and hid that fact. As I can see, she created few articles in EnWiki, one of which was already deleted as promo. The second one is also paid: on May 11 user's employer wrote a review about her work, which must be Ukrainian version of the same article, created on the same day; on May 16 the same employer wrote one more review about a new article, created in another language: English version was created on the same day. Айнене (talk) 08:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
New anti-vandalism tool starting development at the Wikimedia Foundation
Hi - I’m the Product Manager for the Moderator Tools team at the Wikimedia Foundation (and long-time editor and admin here). I wanted to let you know that now that we're wrapping up our work on PageTriage, my team is in the early stages of designing and building Automoderator - an automated anti-vandalism revert tool like ClueBot NG. Although most of the details and discussion can be found on MediaWiki, we’ve created a project page here to discuss how this tool might be evaluated or used on the English Wikipedia. We think you have unique insight into how we should build the tool given your experiences with ClueBot NG. Please take a look at our project page and share your thoughts on the talk page. We’ll try to keep the page to date as we progress with the project, so consider watchlisting for updates. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 10:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan of the name "automoderator," not just because of the obvious (Wikipedia is not a forum; we don't have any clearly defined non-automated moderators so it'd be rather confusing to suddenly have an automated one, etc.) but mostly because it rather implies the kind of authority that the tool simply won't have, and could never have because it's an automated process. How about something more in line with Wikipedia's culture, such as "Automatic Vandalism Reverter" (or AVR for short)? 78.28.44.127 (talk) 19:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm definitely open to new names. 'Automoderator' stuck as a name because we were researching similar tools on other platforms. Twitch, Reddit, and Discord, for example, all have 'Automod'/'Automoderator' tools. Additionally, we've been using the term 'Moderator' to encompass administrators, patrollers, functionaries, and generally experienced editors who do content curation work. I agree, though, that 'moderator' isn't a word we use here, so other names might be better. Automatic Vandalism Reverter is a nice suggestion, though perhaps a bit wordy. AutoPatroller might be better since Patrollers are the non-automated equivalent, though it's perhaps too confusing with Autopatrolled. Either way, very open to new name suggestions. Perhaps we could even let each community name the tool/reverting account themselves? We're going to have to think about the issue of localisation at some point anyway. I appreciate this response was a little unfocused - a reflection of how early in the process we are here! Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 06:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Deletion/unlinking norms
I have a long-running difference of opinion with Liz, a hardworking admin who I very much respect. Since I've brought up the issue several times with no resolution. I'd like to hear other admins' perspctives on what the norms and expectations are for unlinking after a deletion.
I've prodded a large number of articles for settlements and communities that never actually existed, many of which were railroad sidings mislabeled in various government databases. To maintain accuracy, they need to be removed entirely from all lists and articles that mention them rather than simply delinked. My opinion is that this should be done by an admin as part of the deletion/delinking process; Liz tells me that this is a big ask that would add greatly to her workload and has even suggested in the past that the editor who nominated for deletion should do the work.
A recent example is Weir River, Manitoba, a railroad siding in Manitoba which I prodded because it is not, and never was, a community. After Liz deleted and de-linked the leftover redlinks, there were multiple articles [27][28][29] that still listed it as a community/settlement. I raised the issue on her talk page (permalink); she replied that she was trained to simply unlink the articles using Twinkle and implied that tracking down these mentions would be too much work.
I'm not looking for sanctions or anything like that, I just want to hear from other admins. Is it normal to just unlink using the automated tool, even when you know that it will leave behind erroneous mentions, or is it fair to ask an admin to do the extra work of removing these mentions entirely? –dlthewave ☎ 16:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm. Seems like a case like that might involve a fair amount of work to do properly. Weir River, Manitoba isn't a settlement, but presumably it is a river? So, you wouldn't necessarily be safe using an automated tool to just remove any links, you'd need to go manually to all articles linking there, find the mention, read what it says, establish whether it's just listing a settlement or actually talking about the river, and then consider whether or not to adjust the article. That is a fairly big task if there are a lot of inbound links - it's clear that it needs doing, but if it's established that the deleting admin needs to be the one to do it, one might be tempted just to leave PRODs like that for someone else to deal with. I can vibe with the idea of saying 'do the legwork yourself before PRODding', since admin tools aren't required. Girth Summit (blether) 16:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Non-admin comment: I report spamlinks a fair bit to the blacklist. I see it as my job to go round and remove those links from articles – something that can't be done automatically as they can be buried in false citations or sometimes being incorrectly used in good faith as a real citation. It takes a lot of legwork to remove some of these links... legwork that, as the reporter of the spamlink, I think of as my job because it's asking a lot of a busy admins whose time is better used blocking the spammers and blacklisting the links – the bit I can't do.
- I'm afraid there's no alternative to this: an admin can do the 'easy' bit of pressing the big red button, but as editors it is our responsibility to clean up after our nominations if any non-admin editorial work is required. Otherwise, it will just not get done. — Trey Maturin™ 16:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not opposed to doing it myself for unambiguous PRODs, lessening the workload for others. The only difficulty I see would be at AfD discussions where an editor might potentially find some WP:HEY sources to establish notability. It doesn't quite seem appropriate to go around removing all mentions of a topic before the AfD is closed (it's likely to be reverted anyway) and I wouldn't be able to access the "What links here" list afterwards. I would also mention that AfD noms don't know that they're supposed to do this and the deletion instructions do put this on admins, so we might need to do some rewriting to clarify. An extreme example would be List of places in Arizona (A) which had dozens of delinked entries that nobody had cleaned up until I went through and nuked anything that wasn't linked. –dlthewave ☎ 17:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- There is, of course, no problem with going around and unlinking stuff after the PROD/AfD has concluded. Special:WhatLinksHere works on deleted pages – go to the article that was deleted and it's there in the sidebar. It's a slog to do it, but if we're happy for others to do it, we should be willing to do it ourselves, especially as it doesn't require any admin tools. — Trey Maturin™ 17:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not opposed to doing it myself for unambiguous PRODs, lessening the workload for others. The only difficulty I see would be at AfD discussions where an editor might potentially find some WP:HEY sources to establish notability. It doesn't quite seem appropriate to go around removing all mentions of a topic before the AfD is closed (it's likely to be reverted anyway) and I wouldn't be able to access the "What links here" list afterwards. I would also mention that AfD noms don't know that they're supposed to do this and the deletion instructions do put this on admins, so we might need to do some rewriting to clarify. An extreme example would be List of places in Arizona (A) which had dozens of delinked entries that nobody had cleaned up until I went through and nuked anything that wasn't linked. –dlthewave ☎ 17:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- The article for the river itself is Weir River (Manitoba). Very little links to it, either. --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 04:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Had this conversation many times when I did more list maintenance years ago. :) For regular articles, context is important. Deletion doesn't necessarily mean that a subject shouldn't get even the briefest of mention elsewhere, so there are many cases when it wouldn't be appropriate to remove. But sometimes it would be, and that'll usually be obvious from the reasons for deletion. If it was deleted as a hoax, as promotional, or a subject that's likely to be promoted (YouTubers, executives, etc.), it merits a closer look. If it's unclear, just delink.
- For lists, it's different. We do have some lists that are exhaustive, but we have a ton of lists that are supposed to be just notable examples (WP:CSC). Most of the time, it'll be more appropriate to remove an item from a list rather than delink it. I'd rather err on the side of removal in this case.
- Why can't someone else do it? Well, because incoming links are easier to find than unlinked text. If someone else wanted to go through the links, delinking them makes it impossible to use "what links here". And blacktext doesn't jump out as much as redtext does. In other words, I consider delinking something that should be removed a net negative action because it makes it harder for others to do the rest of the job.
- In sum, the choice should be between looking at the links to see if removal is appropriate or leaving the redlinks alone so someone else can look at them properly. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that simply using an automated tool to delink everything isn't a good solution. Many years ago, I did a few hundred AfDs on non-notable experimental weapons, and most of the deleted articles were delinked, leaving behind no-context blacktext in dozens of lists, navigation templates, see-also sections, etc. for things that may not even actually exist beyond the mind of one overzealous editor. ansh.666 18:14, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. Although I understand the pressure to get through the backlog, it seems like folks are being given a pass for relying on automated tools in a way that would be completely unacceptable in any other context. We're responsible for our edits even when using Twinkle. –dlthewave ☎ 17:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that simply using an automated tool to delink everything isn't a good solution. Many years ago, I did a few hundred AfDs on non-notable experimental weapons, and most of the deleted articles were delinked, leaving behind no-context blacktext in dozens of lists, navigation templates, see-also sections, etc. for things that may not even actually exist beyond the mind of one overzealous editor. ansh.666 18:14, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- A suggestion for admins dealing with PRODs: rather than unlinking with Twinkle, use User:Evad37/Xunlink.js. It works exactly the same way as the XFDcloser unlinker, including by letting you choose whether to remove list entries (example). Give it a try! Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- For a possible point of comparison – when it comes to page moves, the norm is that RM closers (rather than nominators) are responsible for retargeting wikilinks that end up pointing to the wrong page (per WP:RMCI#Cleaning up after the move). This situation isn't perfectly analogous to delinking (the wikilinks are just being edited rather than removed, which makes it somewhat easier to undo), but it's similar enough that I thought it might help to mention. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I guess I should weigh in since my name was brought up. I'll just say that when I was starting out as an admin back in 2015, a senior editor (meaning years more experience than I had) came to my User talk page to tell me that I should never leave red links behind when a main space article was deleted. They were very insistent about doing this and I assumed that it was a common practice that I didn't know about because it was only done by admins and I was a new admin. This unlinking happens automatically with XFDcloser when AFDs are closed as Delete so this unlinking is primarily an issue with PRODs and Speedy deletion but it is less of an issue with CSDs because they are commonly very new articles without links on other articles.
- When Dlthewave brought up the issue on my talk page, I said that I delete so many articles every day, I can not investigate every link to an article that I deleted, I already spend way too much time on the project. HOWEVER, if there is a consensus that we should leave red links, of course, I would change my behavior and not hit the "unlink" button on Twinkle. Secondly, if this is a concern only with a certain type of article (like PRODS about Manitoba places), that would be easy to accommodate. I think what prompted this discussion here is that I am not the only admin who handles PRODS and I'm fairly certain this unlinking is done by other admins besides me so this isn't just an issue of my behavior but of whether or not links to deleted articles should be unlinked. But whatever the project wants, I will do. Liz Read! Talk! 00:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Liz, this would be a concern for any article that's being deleted because the subject doesn't exist at all, whether it's a hoax, error or otherwise. I see it most commonly with geostubs. I would note that the AfD closer tools doesn't seem to recognize lists that are formatted as a table, for example List of places in Arizona (A) collected a large number of erroneous unlinked entries over the years presumably because it's not a standard bulleted list. –dlthewave ☎ 16:59, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm happy to help early next week.
- This is a special case -Via Rail has 50+ flag stops marked by signposts in the Manitoba wilderness for canoeists and hikers to flag down the Hudson's Bay train. Someone went and created a railroad station article for each even though there was no station. Then a town article was created for each even though there was no town. In many cases, the signpost is in a bog.
- I did a long analysis of every one of these 100+ articles
- Dlthewave has been working through these.
- I worked the spam blacklist for several years. As a non-admin, I always cleaned up the links. As an admin, I asked the reporting person to clean them up. We didn't have enough admins then. We have many fewer now. I'd rather have Liz closing AfDs than doing non-admin clean up.
- --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 02:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Here's the current list of red links as I understand it:
- I found no links from these deleted pages to any articles in article space. Most were to links in Wikipedia or User space. There are 2 templates to deal with:
- @Dlthewave and @Liz: am I missing something? I don't perceive much if anything to clean up.
- Do I need to clean up red links outside article space and template space? Seems like a waste of time.
- --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 02:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I see other PRODs out there for flagstops elsewhere in Canada:
- Some other pages have been deleted:
*Pellatt, Pelican, Umbach, Gidley*KeeMan- They have many articles linked to them but I think that's because of several templates:
- Are there any others?
- --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 04:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- A. B., I cleaned up everything I could find for the most recent Manitoba deletions, and I know you and I both have eyes on the next set of PRODs. I was asking a broader, general question about who normally handles these since I've been cleaning up geostubs for years and this often seems to be overlooked by both noms and admins. –dlthewave ☎ 16:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think fixing templates like the ones I listed quickly fixes dozens of red links with one edit.
- —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 16:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- A. B., I cleaned up everything I could find for the most recent Manitoba deletions, and I know you and I both have eyes on the next set of PRODs. I was asking a broader, general question about who normally handles these since I've been cleaning up geostubs for years and this often seems to be overlooked by both noms and admins. –dlthewave ☎ 16:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
if there is a consensus that we should leave red links
I think the consensus is likely that, upon deletion, incoming links should be analyzed and either delinked or removed. My sense is that typically does fall to the person deleting the article, but I don't think that's codified anywhere. Granted, not everyone does, but it seems like a not fully completed. Forced to choose between doing nothing and blind delinking without considering context, I guess I'd choose doing nothing, but is there really such a backlog of articles to delete that it's important to maximize quantity? I don't have that knowledge. It does seem like a task that could be separated, since there's nothing about delinking/removing linked text that requires admin tools, but it'd be good to have a mechanism for that. What about a daily report on recently deleted articles that still have incoming links. Now that I think about it, that would probably be useful regardless, since it's not like you're the only one using the Twinkle unlink feature upon deletion. Pinging JPxG, who I know already has at least one bot scraping deletion information -- how hard would this be? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)- Note to myself to look at this in a bit. jp×g 15:28, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Rhododendrites, both the PROD policy and AfD admin instructions currently mention delinking as part of the deletion process for admins, but there's no reason this couldn't be a separate non-admin process. I think there also needs to be more awareness that hoax/fictitious topics need to be removed entirely, not just delinked, unlike non-notable topics where it might be appropriate to leave certain mentions in place. This requires a close reading of the deletion discussion/rationale which in the case of a PROD may not always be available to a non-admin. For example if I can only see "expired PROD" as the reason for deletion, I wouldn't know whether a phrase like "...located X miles from the hamlet of Y" needs to be delinked because Hamlet Y is non-notable or removed entirely because Hamlet Y doesn't exist at all. –dlthewave ☎ 16:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I just struck Pellatt, Pelican, Umbach, Gidley and KeeMan from the list above. We never had these articles; they were red-links in Template:Kenora District that I mistakenly deleted thinking they were recently deleted articles. I have restored them; these are Ontario local services boards that serve actual areas and we should have articles. I verified they exist.[30][31][32] I'm busy on other stuff; hopefully someone will see the red links and create stubs for them.
- --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 17:36, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Hi there,
I added some sourced information to Richard D. Gills article, and fair enough maybe it was a bit undue including a summary of it in the lead and so another editor (@Yngvadottir:) fairly shortened it and kept it just to the body [[33]]. But then the actual person who the article is about came along and removed both me and the fellow editor's edits under the justification of 'vandalism' [[34]], presumably as the content added was negative about them. The other editor had to restore it [35]. It was my understanding that Wikipedia:Conflict of interest editors shouldn't really be editing pages about themselves in such a way as to remove all negative things about them? I tried then to add to the page with some more information about Benjamin Geen to balance some of the content, with Geen having already been written about in the same section, and cited a reliable source (The Guardian), but then Gill reverts his own page again, saying it 'doesn't belong in that part of the article' and makes no attempt to put it in any other part of the article, again presumably as it is not a particularly glowing review of him so doesn't want it to be in at all [36]. So I change the section title [37] to make it more appropriate for the content the section includes, including the stuff of mine the other editor had re-added about a non-proven miscarriage of justice which wouldn't make sense under a 'wrongful conviction' part, but he then just reverts again without explanation a second [38] and then a third time [39], so I've stopped as I don't want to edit war. But then Gill goes on my talk page and starts making personal comments towards me, such as that I 'have an agenda' and that I'm 'just a troll': User talk:MeltingDistrict. This is despite me attempting to warn him that conflict of interest editors are strongly encouraged to not edit on articles about them and that he should be commenting on content, not on the contributor. Gill just said he had 'Alterted other Wikipedia users to my vandalism' [40] and said some slightly confusing comment about how he 'should not touch the article about myself (a living person) till I’m no longer a living person'.
Look I know my conduct here hasn't been 100% perfect myself and the stuff I was trying to add to Gill's page wasn't making him sound fabulous, but I did source it to reliable sources and the other editor refined it and re-instated it? Can it really be allowed that a conflict of interest editor is allowed to just always revert a user (or users) on his own page? And make personal attacks against me?
Oh, and to update, he has now removed entirely all edits, including the stuff I'd included which the other more experienced editor refined and re-instated [41]. Is this really allowed, seeing as he's reverting two editors now, and isn't it also edit warring, having reverted this four or five times now?: [42], [43], [44], [45], [46], [47] MeltingDistrict (talk) 01:06, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Huh ok. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah fair enough but I was already given a 'level 2 warning' for that [48] as I'm a dumb fresh editor MeltingDistrict (talk) 01:18, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm glad this section was started; I was about to report MeltingDistrict here for axe-grinding and edit-warring over Lucy Letby. I haven't examined their edits at the main Lucy Letby article, but that personal attack on User talk:Gill110951 noted above by the IP was vile. I would have given it a warning above Level 2 had I not been creating a new editor's talk page. Their edits at Richard D. Gill demonstrate a serious problem with maintaining a neutral point of view and after posting here I'm about to re-examine the article from a BLP point of view; the edit war and extension of MeltingDistrict's focus to Benjamin Geen came during my household's grocery run. I seem to recall a contentious topic banner on Talk:Lucy Letby; if I remember rightly, could an admin please give MeltingDistrict appropriate notification? Yngvadottir (talk) 01:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Could I just ask for clarification please on how I've been edit warring at Lucy Letby? Genuinely don't think I have... I've been adding lots of content. This evening it got a bit messed up because of intermediate edits, but I wasn't edit-warring. MeltingDistrict (talk) 01:47, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- FWIW, I feel like everyone is somewhat in the wrong here - MeltingDistrict's axe grinding, and Gill's conflict of interest editing. Also, anyone can give CT notices, not just admins. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 01:50, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm 100% happy to admit that my conduct has been bad and needs to change, and I would like to apologise. I will just say that while I hold my hands up and say I have had an axe to grind with Richard Gill, I have only meant to add sourced content to Lucy Letby, not edit war. I think I reverted someone once today but that's it. But in any case happy to just hold my hands up and say I need to be better MeltingDistrict (talk) 01:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- If you have an axe to grind with a BLP subject you absolutely should not be editing their article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Fair enough I won't then, but is the article subject also allowed to control edits on it? MeltingDistrict (talk) 02:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- That's my main concern: the subject of the article is actively editing the article. Y'all know me, I hate COI editing. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 02:06, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Fair enough I won't then, but is the article subject also allowed to control edits on it? MeltingDistrict (talk) 02:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- If you have an axe to grind with a BLP subject you absolutely should not be editing their article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- ((ec)) @LilianaUwU: As I say, I have not examined MeltingDistrict's work on the Lucy Letby article itself, but their feelings about the case are on display in that personal attack. I now see they didn't edit the Benjamin Geen article either, but added something about that case at Richard D. Gill. It will take me a few minutes to look at what they added and its source and try to come up with a neutrally worded addition that is less UNDUE about Lucy Letby; the state of play last I looked is that the subsection on Letby has been completely removed. I note that Gill110951 started a talk page section, MeltingDistrict did not. Dashing off to the sources .... Yngvadottir (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Just to clarify I probably would have opened a talk discussion/replied there sooner if I wasn't distracted by already being told I was a troll on my talkpage and told to stick to the Lucy Letby page by Richard Gill [49]. When I realised he'd opened a talk page discussion (I didn't get the ping as the ping was not formatted properly) I did reply. MeltingDistrict (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, other than his initially labelling me a vandal (LOL), which was probably inadvertent, I've been impressed by Gill110951's comportment. MeltingDistrict gives the impression that Gill110951 came right at them with the "troll" accusation, but it's actually quite far down this section on their user talk, which Gill110951 started by engaging the content perfectly reasonably:
So the analogy with these nutty conspiracy theorists is a bit weak.
They have now apologised for the "troll" accusation. MeltingDistrict can indeed claim to be new—although they initially started editing in December 2020, they went away after only a few edits, and that spooky WMF note at the top of their contribs says they have 139 edits total. Nobody had welcomed them, so they may have not been aware of policiy. I am mindful of WP:BITE and in particular that everyone starts off as a single-issue account. But since returning on 19 August, they've focussed on Letby. And the first thing they did on their return was leave that steaming pile of PA on Gill110951's talk page. Gill110951's over a bit of a barrel in attempting to defend an article about himself (see his user page) from edits based on personal feeling, RIGHTGREATWRONGS, etc. MeltingDistrict, this is an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper; advocacy has no place in our articles, and respect for living persons and civility toward fellow editors are fundamental rules here. Do you understand this now? Yngvadottir (talk) 03:32, 26 August 2023 (UTC)- Very well then. Yes I understand what you say and will leave Gill alone from now on. MeltingDistrict (talk) 07:19, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, other than his initially labelling me a vandal (LOL), which was probably inadvertent, I've been impressed by Gill110951's comportment. MeltingDistrict gives the impression that Gill110951 came right at them with the "troll" accusation, but it's actually quite far down this section on their user talk, which Gill110951 started by engaging the content perfectly reasonably:
- Just to clarify I probably would have opened a talk discussion/replied there sooner if I wasn't distracted by already being told I was a troll on my talkpage and told to stick to the Lucy Letby page by Richard Gill [49]. When I realised he'd opened a talk page discussion (I didn't get the ping as the ping was not formatted properly) I did reply. MeltingDistrict (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm 100% happy to admit that my conduct has been bad and needs to change, and I would like to apologise. I will just say that while I hold my hands up and say I have had an axe to grind with Richard Gill, I have only meant to add sourced content to Lucy Letby, not edit war. I think I reverted someone once today but that's it. But in any case happy to just hold my hands up and say I need to be better MeltingDistrict (talk) 01:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
The SmallCat dispute arbitration case has been closed, and the final decision is viewable at the case page. The following remedies has been enacted:
- BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from Wikipedia. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- Laurel Lodged (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from Wikipedia. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- Laurel Lodged is indefinitely topic banned from maintaining categories. In addition to discussing categories and their maintenance, this includes – but is not limited to – directly adding or removing categories from pages, and moving or renaming categories.
- Nederlandse Leeuw (talk · contribs) is warned about their behavior during conduct discussions.
- Editors participating in XfD, especially those forums with a small number of regular participants, are reminded to be careful about forming a local consensus which may or may not reflect the broader community consensus. Regular closers at an XfD forum may also want to note when broader community discussion, or changes to policies and guidelines, would be helpful.
For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute closed
Request to delete some taunts from a userpage
I had planned to just remove these as personal attacks, but as it was already attempted by someone else and reverted, I'll bring it here for discussion. Someone who was just banned has some comments on their userpage that are inflammatory and inappropriate. WP:UP#POLEMIC deals with this specifically. The comments are here [50]. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 03:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- The first thing that should be done in these cases is to ask the user to remove the content you find inappropriate, or ask their permission to do so (such as, for example, if they are blocked and unable to do so themselves). DrKay (talk) 07:15, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- This doesn't make sense... she clearly wants it to stay there or she would have removed it previously. And why would I ask permission from someone who is sitebanned by arbcom? This is a userpage content guideline violation. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 12:52, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Balph Eubank: Another editor removed those comments, and I reverted them. Neither that user nor you is entitled to alter another user's userpage. In this instance, the fact that BHG was banned by ArbCom makes it even more unseemly for editors to alter her userpage. DrKay's suggestion is impossible as BGH does not have access to her Talk page, so she wouldn't be able to respond. My first suggestion is you let it go. If you are unwilling to do that, you might e-mail ArbCom and ask them. As an aside, you should be using your actual username in your sig.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:07, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, the relevant guideline is at WP:CUSTOMSIG:
A customised signature should make it easy to identify your username
. Also, bearing in mind the high profile of that particular editor and the number of editorial opponents she had, I think if the comments were considered that egregious whilst she was active, they would have been challenged by now. It seems the height of gravedancing to try and remove now they are banned. SN54129 14:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)- I completely disagree and have removed the first one as it is particularly egregious. Making fun of someone's command of English is obviously not appropriate content for a user page. I have done this as member of the community as opposed to an arbitration action. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Good call. If BHG makes an appeal at a later stage, when less burned out, the presence of the section would have worked against her. Ceoil (talk) 15:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- And now users are edit-warring over the comments. Unbelievable.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- yes, it is rather unbelieveable that I am now being asked to get a consensus that removing the deliberate mocking of another specific user for their English skills is now something we need to debate rather than simply agreeing that it is an absolutely deplorable thing to have on anyone's userpage. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- And now users are edit-warring over the comments. Unbelievable.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Good call. If BHG makes an appeal at a later stage, when less burned out, the presence of the section would have worked against her. Ceoil (talk) 15:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- In practice, we only enforce CUSTOMSIG when it comes to new users and as an additional charge against people who find themselves at ANI for other reasons. There are tons of long-timers with signatures that have nothing to do with their username, nearly all of them are aware that some people find it confusing/frustrating/unfriendly to newbies trying to figure out norms/procedures, and little appetite to enforce it. YMMV. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I completely disagree and have removed the first one as it is particularly egregious. Making fun of someone's command of English is obviously not appropriate content for a user page. I have done this as member of the community as opposed to an arbitration action. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- This doesn't make sense... she clearly wants it to stay there or she would have removed it previously. And why would I ask permission from someone who is sitebanned by arbcom? This is a userpage content guideline violation. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 12:52, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Soo ban someone for their behavior towards other editors, and fight to preserve that behavior? Odd stuff. At the end of the day, has anyone just pinged Headbomb, as the subject of the two remaining? If we were talking about someone who wasn't sitebanned, I'd consider that his response might be influenced by a desire to avoid interaction with the user, but I suspect with things as they are, we can just defer to his wishes. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- While these comments aren't great, making a big deal of out of them now smacks of gravedancing. I hope this doesn't devolve into a free-for-all for anyone who's been waiting to get their pound of flesh from BHG. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:59, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with those who say that language comment clearly had to go. I'm surprised no one noticed it until now, but I AGF that it isn't intended as grave dancing, especially since frankly if someone really wanted to harm BHG, it seems to me there's a fair chance bringing it up while she was still active would have been more successful. Nil Einne (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for assuming good faith. The gravedancing accusations from others are without merit. I cannot recall having any negative interactions with BrownHairedGirl in the past and this has nothing to do with her being banned. WP:UP#POLEMIC is a guideline and I'm not sure why removing inflammatory comments from a userpage of someone who cannot edit is controversial to anyone who is unbiased. Additionally, Bbb23 should note (despite the comment "Neither that user nor you is entitled to alter another user's userpage") that I didn't touch her userpage... I raised the issue here to be discussed and reach consensus. Not sure why the massive overreaction, but whatever. The end result seems good, as the subject of the two remaining inflammatory comments doesn't care about them. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 19:48, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well Bbb23 is deliberately giving wildly incorrect information there anyway, as they know full well what WP:UOWN and WP:NOBAN say in clear English. And it is not "Neither that user nor you is entitled to alter another user's userpage". What it says is user's do not own their own user and talk pages, and other people have every right to edit them. It is a courtesy to not make substantial edits to another editors userpage without their permission. But that does not extend to content that should be removed on sight, such as attacks on others. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Gravedancing is not vandalism and this is not article space, so your wikilink to that herring essay is whatever. And this still looks a lot like gravedancing to me. It seems unlikely that you just randomly stumbled across the userpage of a freshly-banned editor you had never interacted with before. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Lepricavark: When did anyone say it was random? It's entirely reasonable that someone may come across the case, and visit BHG's user page for any myriad of entirely acceptable reasons including to get to their contributions page for again any myriad of acceptable reasons, and while at the user page notice the highly disturbing content on BHG's userpage and act not because of any malice to BHG or because they knew BHG was blocked but simply because they saw content that was unacceptable for which they would have taken action in any case. This isn't random, but it clearly isn't gravedancing either. We shouldn't do things to intentionally harm editors at any time and this applies even when they've been blocked, but this doesn't mean blocked editors have some sort of protective shield and are entitled to have all their contributions protected forever more even when those contributions are extremely harmful to Wikipedia. Instead we should just treat all editors including blocked editors the same. Let them be provided they are not causing problems but if they are or have created problems then only take the necessary actions to protect Wikipedia from these problems. Note that we generally allow even blocked editors to request deletion of their user pages (excepting for ban notices then they are deemed necessary). And while I don't think this is articulated anywhere I would fully support as a courtesy allowing a blocked editor to request (once or twice) some minor edits to their userpage, in particular blanking it excepting for a ban notice where the community feels that is necessary. So it's not like BHG is powerless here, if they feel this issue has highlighted that their userpage needs a lot of work but they can't deal with it, they could simply request we blank it until they are able to deal with it. (There's no realistic chance they will be allowed to keep the language comment. As my original comment hinted at, in fact if they had tried to, this would not have ended well for them even if they did not have the history that they did. But with their history, it would have ended even more poorly. As sort of highlighted by Ceoil, anything less then them acknowledging they made a serious error in posting that is in fact likely to prevent them ever being unbanned since even if the arbcom makes the decision to unban them, there's a fair chance the community will just override them. Especially if BHG actually tried to defend posting that comment. With it being removed there's a fair chance they people will just leave it be if an appeal comes. Although even if not, it's hard to have sympathy since BHG did chose to make such an atrocious thing on their user page.) Nil Einne (talk) 13:24, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- BTW, as far as I can tell the editor who the comment was from is still active and in good standing although possibly with a tendency to create too many categories, and not notified of this thread. Normally I'm a stickler about notifying editors when we are effectively discussing something to do with them but I'm going to make an exception here because I'd much rather this editor is not aware that this happened. Let them be blissfully unaware how shockingly they were attacked and that other editors then tried to allow this attack to be kept. Nil Einne (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- The OP wrote that
I cannot recall having any negative interactions with BrownHairedGirl in the past and this has nothing to do with her being banned.
If they stumbled across the case and that led them to BHG's page, then this does have something to do with BHG being banned. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)- Confusion of necessity and sufficiency. Please stop casting aspersions. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 20:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not casting aspersions. Get your story straight or don't tell it at all. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Confusion of necessity and sufficiency. Please stop casting aspersions. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 20:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Lepricavark: When did anyone say it was random? It's entirely reasonable that someone may come across the case, and visit BHG's user page for any myriad of entirely acceptable reasons including to get to their contributions page for again any myriad of acceptable reasons, and while at the user page notice the highly disturbing content on BHG's userpage and act not because of any malice to BHG or because they knew BHG was blocked but simply because they saw content that was unacceptable for which they would have taken action in any case. This isn't random, but it clearly isn't gravedancing either. We shouldn't do things to intentionally harm editors at any time and this applies even when they've been blocked, but this doesn't mean blocked editors have some sort of protective shield and are entitled to have all their contributions protected forever more even when those contributions are extremely harmful to Wikipedia. Instead we should just treat all editors including blocked editors the same. Let them be provided they are not causing problems but if they are or have created problems then only take the necessary actions to protect Wikipedia from these problems. Note that we generally allow even blocked editors to request deletion of their user pages (excepting for ban notices then they are deemed necessary). And while I don't think this is articulated anywhere I would fully support as a courtesy allowing a blocked editor to request (once or twice) some minor edits to their userpage, in particular blanking it excepting for a ban notice where the community feels that is necessary. So it's not like BHG is powerless here, if they feel this issue has highlighted that their userpage needs a lot of work but they can't deal with it, they could simply request we blank it until they are able to deal with it. (There's no realistic chance they will be allowed to keep the language comment. As my original comment hinted at, in fact if they had tried to, this would not have ended well for them even if they did not have the history that they did. But with their history, it would have ended even more poorly. As sort of highlighted by Ceoil, anything less then them acknowledging they made a serious error in posting that is in fact likely to prevent them ever being unbanned since even if the arbcom makes the decision to unban them, there's a fair chance the community will just override them. Especially if BHG actually tried to defend posting that comment. With it being removed there's a fair chance they people will just leave it be if an appeal comes. Although even if not, it's hard to have sympathy since BHG did chose to make such an atrocious thing on their user page.) Nil Einne (talk) 13:24, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for assuming good faith. The gravedancing accusations from others are without merit. I cannot recall having any negative interactions with BrownHairedGirl in the past and this has nothing to do with her being banned. WP:UP#POLEMIC is a guideline and I'm not sure why removing inflammatory comments from a userpage of someone who cannot edit is controversial to anyone who is unbiased. Additionally, Bbb23 should note (despite the comment "Neither that user nor you is entitled to alter another user's userpage") that I didn't touch her userpage... I raised the issue here to be discussed and reach consensus. Not sure why the massive overreaction, but whatever. The end result seems good, as the subject of the two remaining inflammatory comments doesn't care about them. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 19:48, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Seems to me that it was a clear violation of WP:POLEMIC, as is the comment still left about Headbomb, they don't care about it, which is great, but such things should never be posted on anyone's userpage in the first place. It's as simple as that, whether they are banned now or later carries no weight in this particular conversation. --qedk (t 愛 c) 21:49, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Delete the entire "Jewels" section as a violation of WP:POLEMIC which clearly prohibits maintaining negative information about other editors. Please note that restoring polemic content is also considered disruptive. –dlthewave ☎ 23:26, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- There's no encyclopedic merit in retaining a public statement mocking another editor's English language skills. Let's remove the comments then move along. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- FFS, I do not understand why this even gets a thread. The tasteless, crass, WP:POLEMIC "jewel" should have been got rid of long ago. Whether or not it's only been spotted now because of the ban...irrelevant. DeCausa (talk) 20:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
IP address edit warring without any attempt to reach consensus
Hello there, I'm requesting administrator attention towards the article New Brunswick New Democratic Party. In this article, an IP address keeps adding "Vacant" to the list of NDP leaders, for a period of two months where this political party was vacant. As I've stated in the talk page discussion, I personally believe a period of two months is not significant enough to list it in the list of past leaders, yet instead of holding a discussion with me to attempt to reach consensus, the IP address 2607:FEA8:D1E0:7C10:7088:57ED:14C9:DC4 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), which previously made edits to the original article under IP addresses 2607:FEA8:D1C0:E67:25F6:598:2660:55D (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 2607:FEA8:D1C0:E67:1D7A:5B08:B8C2:816B (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is continuing to add the same edit to the article.
Checking the revision history, you can see that I've reverted it in the past due to my personal beliefs of it being unnecessary to add, and, through reverting the IP's unexplained persistency in adding the "Vacant" line, my attempts of using the revert reason to either tell the IP to use the talk page or reach consensus with me in the talk page. The IP did make a talk page section, but they have not offered any response to my own response and resorted to once again adding the "Vacant" line without any explanation, without any attempt on reaching consensus with me.
Due to not wanting to stir up an edit war with the IP, I left a warning on their talk page relating to edit warring in order to try and see if that would result in them actually trying to reach consensus with me on the talk page, which they would end up reverting and once again, adding the "Vacant" slot on the disputed page. B3251 (talk) 04:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
User lacks competence, refuses to learn, and is editing from an account and an IP
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
JMFan05 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 75.132.39.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) are the same person. He keeps on making edits to articles without having any understanding of our policies, guidelines, or best practices. See the IP's user talk where he repeatedly refuses to even try to read WP:V or WP:OR and the account's user talk, where he keeps on making bad drafts of articles that cannot be published. He's removing accessibility features, breaking references, inserting nonsense into pages, removing sourced information, etc. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Note he has also posted copyvio information before and had several deleted edits. He has no concept of basic sourcing or how to write articles for this encyclopedia. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oh and he purports to work for Mellencamp with otherwise undisclosed affiliation on articles. Plus this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JMFan05&diff=prev&oldid=1172297813 ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- What I would do is remove this jackwad from having anything to do with Wikipedia in the future. I’ve written all of John Mellencamp’s main Wikipedia entry, all of his album and single entries as well. I know what I’m doing. This Justin guy is a complete jackass. JMFan05 (talk) 06:21, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- The current block is solely for incivility. I haven't examined the other issues, so anyone should feel free to extend the block without reference to me. DrKay (talk) 07:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Upon further review of the editor's history, I have blocked them indefinitely as NOTHERE, per what they likely did not realize was their own suggestion: "What I would do is remove this jackwad from having anything to do with Wikipedia in the future." Indeed. Daniel Case (talk) 18:33, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello
Moved to WP:Help deskLinking to Good Russians on Template:Russian invasion of Ukraine
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The article Good Russians was deleted via WP:GS/RUSUKR, and me and Super Dromaeosaurus are debating whether the red link to this article should be kept in Template:Russian invasion of Ukraine to encourage article recreation. In my opinion, it should not, since the term is encountered mostly (or even only) in online op-ed sources, so WP:N is not met (and the article should have been deleted even if it didn't violate WP:GS/RUSUKR because it was based solely on op-ed non-RS). --HPfan4 (talk) 14:28, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Online News Act concern and discussion
There is a concern about the Canadian Online News Act, its possible implications for Wikipedia, and a discussion that may be of interest as such to administrators at Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)#Online News Act. (I had previously posted but the diff was removed as it was in the middle of other Oversight situation). Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 18:35, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Whilst access to the diff itself was removed as part of oversighting another editor’s post, the actual section survived along with everything else on the page and was archived on schedule as part of the ordinary operation of this page. — Trey Maturin™ 20:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)