Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Co-editor apparently banning me from pages

See /Smatprt. A topic ban from the topic of William Shakespeare has been proposed and has considerable support, and a mutual editing restriction on all parties is also under consideration.

Moved to subpage as it's rather big. --TS 22:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Datestamp of this comment is faked in an attempt to delay archiving of this pointer. --TS 22:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

One of the two editors (I am both the plaintiff and, in the thread, subsequently indicted)for whom a topic ban has been proposed, User:Smatprt, has noted on the page that he is experiencing problems with his computer, and will be travelling until the 18th, and thus cannot respond to the charges or issues raised concerning his editing behaviour. I suggest the page here retain this notice until at least that date.Nishidani (talk) 11:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I've decided to cut short this ridiculously long discussion by noting the administrative consensus for a topic ban on User:Smatprt from all articles related to William Shakespeare, broadly construed. Admins dissenting please note here before the end of the month or I'll just cut the link to the subpage and formally notify Smatprt of the topic ban. --TS 23:36, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Concur with the ban. DGG ( talk ) 19:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Tendentious editing by JPMcGrath on Gun laws in the United States (by state)

This is an issue that has gone on for months, the most recent events are chronicled at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Brady_scorecard.2C_maps:_saga_continues, where there are also links to previous threads on the same topic. The issue was decided by consensus months ago, and suddenly JPMcGrath appears again claiming "There has been no rebuttal; rather obfuscation, obstruction, and dissembling" to his arguments, despite being given links to more than 30,000 words of discussion, as Mudwater demonstrated. He has been warned, has been treated respectfully and politely by both myself and Digiphi, but continues to push this POV. His arguments have not changed, yet he continues to add this content against consensus. At this time his actions merit "disruptive editing", and I'm asking for a topic ban on this. Rapier (talk) 23:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I read through the talk page and had a good look at the article history. It is clear that JPMcGrath is trying to edit against local consensus. His language and approach might be a low level of tendentious editing, but it's mostly a content dispute. I will warn him to cease edit warring at the risk of being blocked. I saw no 3RR violations. Basket of Puppies 00:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

What I am seeing is tedentious editing on both sides of a "no consensus" poll on the talk page.

The response to a "no consensus" is not to go edit war over it on the article itself. It's to go back and try again to find an option that everyone agrees to.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:08, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly that is preferred. That is why, when Mudwater repeatedly removed the maps in July, I decided to avoid edit warring and try to discuss it with him. However, he evaded my questions about his justification for removing it, and when he finally stopped replying to my posts at all, that is when I restored the maps.

Throughout these discussions, I have tried to engage those who oppose the map, and have made changes to try to accomodate their concerns. I changed the captions on the map to address their objections and SaltyBoatr made a change to them as well. When Hoplophile suggested the OpenCarry.org maps to balance the Brady map, I created those and added them. When Mudwater suggested adding a concealed carry map (although he later denied doing so, then admitted he had), I created and added the NRA/ILA map. I continue to be open to any other suggestions.

In response, there has been not a single suggestion for a solution or compromise. Inexplicably, Mudwater even argued that it was a good thing that the article was "all trees and no forest"; i.e. that it had no summary information. While I cannot be certain what is in his or others' minds, it seems to me that the real issue is an extreme dislike of the Brady Campaign and that the only acceptable solution to them is the removal of the Brady map.

It should be clear that I have made a good faith effort to discuss the disagreement and to try to reach a consensus. I am sure I could have done things better, but I am not sure how at this time.

— JPMcGrath (talk) 20:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

——————————

I had hoped for a reply to this, but I suppose I should have asked my question directly, so here it is: How do you (or any admin) think I should have responded to Mudwater's edit warring? — JPMcGrath (talk) 11:47, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Finding an option that everyone agrees on may not be possible in this case. The discussion has gone on for more than seven months and now exceeds 30,000 words (yes, really). Many of the editors who have participated in the discussion have agreed that adding the Brady Campaign State Scorecard map to this article would violate NPOV by pushing a particular political agenda and by providing a soapbox for an advocacy group. Some have also stated that the map does not accurately assess the restrictiveness of the different states' gun laws. Others have suggested that the map might be appropriate for a different article -- for example, Political arguments of gun politics in the United States, or Brady Campaign, which currently does include the map -- but not this article, which simply describes the gun laws of the 50 states in as neutral and unbiased a manner as possible. At this point somewhat more than half of the editors have agreed on this, with a sizable minority not agreeing and saying that adding the map would be okay. Still others have floated the idea of balancing the map by also including another map that supports an opposing view, but there does not appear to be such a balancing map. Anyway, the article without the maps has achieved a very neutral point of view by simply presenting the facts of the laws, which are the subject of this particular article, without adding opinions of any kind. As I said, many editors have agreed that not adding the map is the best course of action. But editor JPMcGrath has refused to accept this and keeps adding it back. This is indeed contentious editing, as it has the effect of disrupting the article for the apparent purpose of advocating a particular political point of view. Here are links to the various discussions that have already occurred:

• Archived discussions:
  • Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)/Archive 1#2009 Brady Campaign State Scorecard
  • Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 12#Gun laws in the United States (by state)
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive603#User:Niteshift36 disruption at Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)
  • Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Rejected/45#Gun laws in the United States (by state)
  • Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)/Archive 1#Brady and other maps
  • Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)/Archive 2#RfC: Should the Brady map be removed or retained?
• Discussions currently on the article talk page:
  • Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)#Proposed removal of all maps
  • Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)#Brady scorecard and other maps, continued
  • Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)#Brady scorecard, maps: saga continues

— Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:29, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, adding the "Brady scorecard" to a state would be analogous to adding the NRA scorecard on a candidate (or anyone else's scorecard, for that matter) to a candidate's Wikipedia article. Having said that, YESPOV is indeed part of NPOV. The main point, though, is that editors must work in good faith to pursue consensus on how to present contentious topics. Jclemens (talk) 02:26, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree completely. While this isn't the place to argue content, I'll simply clarify that buried in those arguments is the point made by myself and others that an NRA map would be just as inappropriate. We aren't trying to push one point of view or the other, we're trying to remove all point of view and simply list the laws in an encyclopedic manner. When third-party analysis of raw data get interjected that is when POV problems occur, and as Mudwater stated above, there are already articles discussing the political debate about gun laws. The maps are included there and continuing to add them here despite clear consensus is the problem. Rapier (talk) 03:32, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a new clear consensus on that point. What I see is several editors who were on one side of the July "Remove all maps or not?" discussion - which an apparently uninvolved admin closed as "No consensus" - continuing the discussion and asserting now that you have consensus, without the participation of most of the other side.

Nothing in the new discussions invalidates the July discussion. No effort was made to revisit it with another clear poll / RFC. It seems like some previously active editors are less active now, but that doesn't invalidate their participation in the last clear poll / RFC type discussion.

ANI is not a replacement for going back to the page and holding another RFC. If those other editors are gone and it's a new consensus that's fine. But this is not the place - and attacking the lead map proponent for disruption is not the right approach - to solve the no consensus problem. Do it right, on the article. Get a consensus. If it's still "No consensus" then accept that. If it goes your way this time, with whoever shows up to bother to participate, then he will need to accept that as well. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:32, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

We've had seven months and more than 30,000 words of discussion, including a Request For Comment, a posting on the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, and a Request For Mediation. A majority of editors -- including myself -- feel very strongly that adding the Brady Scorecard map is an egregious violation of NPOV, and also distorts the facts, while other editors don't agree and think that adding the map would be okay. It seems to me that if many of the participants agree that the map would be a major NPOV violation, and pushes a one-sided political agenda, that trumps other editors saying that it would enhance the article slightly by providing an attractive graphic of summary information. Also, part of why JPMcGrath's editing is tendentious is that he keeps saying that editors such as myself have not explained why adding the map would violate NPOV, when in fact we've just spent the last seven months explaining it, over and over and from many different perspectives. There's a difference between "you've explained the reasoning behind your opinions at great length and in many different ways, but I still don't agree," and "you haven't explained the reasoning behind your opinions," but the difference seems to elude JPMcGrath. So, I find it hard to believe that prolonging the discussion any further would have much benefit at this point. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Good grief, that debate is still going on? As I recall, the main issue with that map is that it presupposes certain things and gives a value judgment as to each state's attitude toward gun control. The problem is whether that map presents an unbiased assessment. Since they themselves are its authors, obviously they are going to judge which parameters to be used. Now, if you had a similar map from the point of view of the NRA, those two maps would be interesting for the reader to compare, and see if they "agree" on each states' attitude toward gun control, even though the groups are obviously on opposite sides of the issue. That is, the NRA might consider a restrictive state to be a "bad" state, and the Brady bunch might consider it to be a "good" state - but it's possible they might rank the states the same way, just flip-flopped in order. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:48, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, this isn't the forum for content dispute, but to clarify the argument is that all maps offer up a POV that is inappropriate in an encyclopedic listing of state laws, not that the "Brady" map alone should be removed. Let's please be clear on the prime mover is, and not allow this to become an issue directed at a single point. Rapier (talk) 22:45, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems to me that a map like that could be useful, IF it were verifiable and not pushing a viewpoint. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:56, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

It may well be useful in the context that Bugs describes, but it's simply not acceptable to keep readding it as it's been done here. There needs to be the wider context that Bugs is talking about if there's any chance for this kind of advocacy ranking to be relevant in a general state article. Shadowjams (talk) 08:17, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I've un-archived this thread to allow for further discussion, per User talk:JPMcGrath#Warning. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 20:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I will post my response as soon as I can get it together. — JPMcGrath (talk) 10:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Response by JPMcGrath

First, I should point out that several of the statements made by SeanNovack are inaccurate:

• He says that "the issue was decided by consensus months ago", which is untrue. That there has never been a consensus is made clear by the RfC here, and by Mudwater's multiple statements that "about half" of the editors agree with him.
• His "suddenly JPMcGrath appears again claiming" comment appears to suggest that my attempt to get others to address the justification for their WP:NPOV claim was something new. In fact, I had been trying to get them to address this question from the beginning.
• His suggestion that the fact that there had been "more than 30,000 words of discussion" means that my questions about the justification for removing the maps had been answered is nonsense. That there was a great deal of discussion does not in any way suggest that the discussion contained an answer, and the unwillingness of participants to point to an answer strongly suggests that it is not there.

That said, I spent some time writing a response that went into this conflict in great detail, but then realized that rehashing all of the details of the disagreement would be tedious, not on point, and would ignore the central point of this discussion, which is the accusation of tendentious editing. According to WP:Tendentious editing

Tendentious editing is editing with a sustained bias, or with a clear viewpoint contrary to neutral point of view."

I have clearly stated that I believe the article badly needs summary material, so that the reader can get a feel for the overall state of gun laws in the United States; as I put it at the outset of this conflict, the article is "all trees and no forest". The maps are intended to ameliorate that problem.

I do not believe that in any way fits the definition of tendentious editing, so I would like my accuser, SeanNovack, to explain what is it in my editing that qualifies as either sustained bias or a a clear viewpoint contrary to neutral point of view? What exactly is the bias or viewpoint?

— JPMcGrath (talk) 07:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The point is that you are the only one that feels that summary information is necessary. Others feel it 'may be helpful', and the rest of us are saying that summary information is inheriently biased by the person doing the summary and has no place in this article that is supposed to be an encyclopedic listing of gun laws by state. The summaries exist in other articles, they simply have no place in this one. Rapier (talk) 15:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Once again JPMcGrath is saying that other editors have not stated any justification for the position that the Brady Scorecard map violates NPOV, and distorts the facts, and so should not be included in the article. I would encourage anyone reading this to click through the links I posted above, and look at some of the previous discussions, and see whether or not there are in fact very extensive postings on exactly that topic. Also, the term "tendentious editing" definitely applies, because JPMcGrath is ignoring what many other editors have said, and is continuing to add the map, which is very biased and advocates for a particular political position. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Mudwater: No, I was not claiming that you have not stated any justification; you have come up with several reasons. For example, you have said that you do not believe the Brady assessment is accurate, although when asked, you did not point to any reliable sources that said this. You have also claimed that including information from the Brady Campaign provides a "soapbox" for them, yet you have no objection to information from, for example, the NRA.

However, none of the reasons you provided are related to WP:NPOV. I asked you to point to the language in WP:NPOV that it violates and you would not do so. I asked you how you came to the conclusion that your objections violate WP:NPOV and you claimed that you had done so previously. I asked you to point to your purported answer and you posted links to all of the discussion that had occurred on this subject. In short, you obfuscated and obstructed.

In fact, you have never addressed the question of why it violates WP:NPOV. You have simply stated reasons that you don't like it and claimed that it violated WP:NPOV. The fact that you disagree with their assessment, or that you don't like the Brady Campaign does not mean it violates WP:NPOV.

— JPMcGrath (talk) 15:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Sean: First, I should note that, like your claims of a consensus, your assertion that I am the only one who feels it is necessary is just a fabrication. None of the RfCs have made that distinction and you have no basis to make that claim.

But that ignores the point I was making. Tendentious editing is about being "partisan, biased or skewed", and believing that summary is appropriate clearly does not fit that. If that is the basis for your tendentious editing claim, it falls flat.

— JPMcGrath (talk) 15:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• I've left this alone, but it's the same old story. A number of editors see it one way. JPMcGrath and generally one other editor see it another and when they agree with each other, they call it a consensus. If you fail to agree with them, you're just bias/partisan/POV warrior/etc. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I confess that I am somewhat perplexed and perhaps even a little bit amused. I did not say there was a consensus; rather it was SeanNovack and Mudwater. And I did not accuse anyone of bias; SeanNovack accused me of bias when he said that I had engaged in tendentious editing. So your comment appears to be a rather stinging indictment of SeanNovack and Mudwater. I would not expect that from you, so I am confused. Would you please explain what you meant? — JPMcGrath (talk) 00:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

JPMcGrath, you just said, "In fact, you have never addressed the question of why [the Brady scorecard map] violates WP:NPOV. " Here are a few selected diffs where I've done exactly that: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Those are just a small selection, all of them taken from the first of the nine discussions that I linked to above. There's plenty more where that came from, and tons more from other editors as well. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you have given your opinion over and over again that the Brady Campaign scorecard is biased, and you have claimed that it therefore violates WP:NPOV. What you have not done, even though you have been asked to do so over and over again, is to show that WP:NPOV says material that is biased should not be included.

As I have pointed out to you, WP:NPOV does not say that. In fact, it explicitly says that the article should represent "fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". It also contains a section titled "Attributing and specifying biased statements". It clearly does not proscribe inclusion of bias; it explicity calls for it.

— JPMcGrath (talk) 02:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Your statement that I've never addressed the question of why the map violates NPOV -- which you've made many times -- is patently false, as the various links and diffs that I've posted clearly show. You don't agree with what I've said on that subject, but that's an entirely different thing. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

You have not addressed the question; what you said about it is nonsense. It would be no different than if you said it violates WP:NPOV because you were eating cornflakes when it was posted. If your claim is not related to what WP:NPOV says, then it is just gibberish. It no more addresses the question than if you were to recite Jabberwocky. — JPMcGrath (talk) 06:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The discussion of the Brady scorecard map has now lasted almost eight months, and includes multiple talk page sections, a Request For Comment, a posting on the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, a Request For Mediation, and two postings on the Administrators' Noticeboard, including this one. We've now had more than 34,000 words of discussion. It would seem that you're willing to keep arguing indefinitely. However, we're long past the point of diminishing returns in this discussion. Many editors have agreed that the map should not be added to the article. That, I think, is the bottom line. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 12:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I suppose I have been patient, but I think that is a virtue rather than a vice, although I can understand why someone engaged in a filibuster might not be happy with it. Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but I am still hopeful that you will realize that your unwillingness to answer a simple question about your basis for removal of the map reflects badly on you.

For the convenience of you and others, I will ask the question again:

Since you have concluded that the Brady map map violates WP:NPOV, but you appear not to have based that on anything in the text of the NPOV policy, exactly how did you reach the conclusion that your objections to it constitute a violation of NPOV?

If you want others to accept your conclusion. it seems to me you should be willing to explain how you reached it. Wou;d you please answer it?

— JPMcGrath (talk) 11:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

British Isles disputants

Triton Rocker

Request for enforcement of WP:GS/BI restriction

Could someone please deal with Triton Rocker (talk · contribs) who's third edit after coming off a one month ban was to make a personal attack on my editshere in direct validation of a civility ban that has been imposed on him at British Isles Probation Log. Just in-case Triton Rocker says he didn't understand the scope of the ban here is the actual words left at his talk page by Cailil (talk · contribs) You are being placed under a behavioral editing restriction. This account may be blocked if it is used to make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil,personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith. Thank you. Bjmullan (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Triton really doesn't like me so I'll leave this for another admin to decide, but the fact that this was their third edit after coming off a month long block combined with the rest of their block log leads me to favor an indefinite block. Maybe point them at the standard offer. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• IMHO, I saw Bjmullan request that TR retract his statement earlier. Having viewed the post and Bjmullan's own phrasing above: "...was to make a personal attack on my edits". Clearly, it's directed at the edits, not the editor, as per WP:CIVIL. Sure, TR was careful to put a paragraph spacing between his own statement regarding bad faith and the generic and non-directed "...It takes no degree of intelligence or integrity to surmise...". By Bjmullan's own statement, it was an attack on edits, not an editor. An over-reaction IMHO, and although a bit of warning is possibly due, there's nothing actionable here. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:50, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Triton Rocker was not only commenting on my edit at British Sky Broadcasting but accused me of provocative editing in general without producing any incident to back up his claim. A clear case of not assuming good faith. Bjmullan (talk) 22:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

It would be sheer sophistry to argue that In my opinion, Mullan's edit to the BSkyB topic is a provocative and bad faith edit. I have experienced a number of similarly provocative and bad faith edits from him. is a comment on edits, not the editor. I am not a great fan of bureaucratic definitions of civility, but a direct accusation of bad faith is about as personal as it gets.Fainites ^barleyscribs 22:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Bjmullan's edit was to change "Britain" to "UK and the Republic of Ireland" in more than one place after another editor had chnage dthe infobox to "British Isles". One source uses "Britain" only. The other uses Britain pretty much except for page with map (hunted down) showing the location of it's offices in UK and the Republic of Ireland. Subsequently there was a bit of an edit war between named editors and IPs. Isn't this what WP:BISE was supposed to resolve? Fainites ^barleyscribs 23:06, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

There's so much activity on his talk page and block log it's a bit of a maze, but I thought at some point there was an agreement that he would stay away from this whole "British Isles" conflict. In any event "I have experienced a number of similarly provocative and bad faith edits from him" certainly is an accusation directed at an editor. Any time a user accuses another of acting in bad faith they need to be damned sure that is what really is going on, and should always provide diffs to substantiate such a claim. Especially if they have a notice on their talk page proclaiming that there is "too much snooping and snitching on the Wikipedia" and a section header they added so that everything below it is identified as "harassment." We don't need this kind of battlefield mentality. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

• Personally, I'm waiting to see what his fourth edit is. And btw, there's no way to read "provocative and bad faith edit" as something other than a comment on an editor -- especially since ABF was specifically called out in the notice of his civility probation.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I am writing this for individuals who are new to this dispute and unaware of the issues involved. For those individuals who are already up to speed, please excuse some repetition as I make my introduction.

"Good Faith" has been established at WT:BISE that none of the contestants enter into edit wars, adding or removing the term "British Isles", without first consulting the community.

Mr Mullan, a support of the contingent who have for some time been habitually seeking to replace the term "British Isles" with "Britain and Ireland" or "United Kingdom and Ireland", did so here; [7]

• The 'edit' was not in good faith. Why?

The topic is about satellite broadcasting to the British Isles. It was agreed by the community that the terms "Britain and Ireland" or "United Kingdom and Ireland" do not include the Isle of Man nor Channel Islands which exist in the geographic area British Isles. They do not. A simple Google search taking seconds shows that the company broadcasts to the the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. Common sense tell us that any signal going to the UK and Ireland would have to include at least the Isle of Man and more than often the Channel Islands. Therefore, Mr Mullan either knowingly or negligently introduced an error into the Wikipedia to support the ongoing campaign.

Mr Mullan is very aware of the issue of dispute and previous discussion. It is very difficult to read the editing introducing the error as but a provocation or a testing of the waters to see how far he can go. Courtesy would have been to brought it to WT:BISE but in this case there is no possible contention British Sky Broadcasting broadcasts to all of the British Isles.

* Why is our time being wasted there and here? It is just more LAME DRAMA.

My comment regarding my previous experience was not uncivil. It is either true or false. I could provide many example if anyone cares. Mr Mullan has an obsession with with me because of this British/Irish issue, follows my editing into other areas where he has had no interest, reverts my work and habitually reports me. This is just one more example.

I consider this a provocation where, e.g. the summaries are prejudicial and do not reflect the reality of my works. One such case would be the topic on Queen Elizabeth II, e.g. [8][9].

I would like to make it clear for newcomers to this dispute that I do not have a political or nationalistically motivated POV. My POV is that politics should be kept out of area which are not political and that the Wikipedia is not the place to decide international geonaming. --Triton Rocker (talk) 05:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

TR blocked for 1 year

Well Sarek, now you've seen that fourth edit. I have imposed a one year block. There is not the slightest indication that this editor is ever going to get the picture. Looie496 (talk) 05:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I know that Triton Rocker has been given a block. However he accused me of following him around and used Elizabeth II as an example of where I followed him. For the record, I first edited at the article on 14 January 2010, Triton Rocker made his first edit nearly eight months later on 22 September 2010. His third edit at the article was to remove a large section of the last paragraph from the lede. Surely he must have realised that on such a high profile article that the lede would have been discussed and agreed on the talk page? Triton Rocker continued his usual MO of making edits without first getting consent, personal attacks and not assuming good faith. I quote him from the talk page: Miesianiacal, I appreciate the "Monarchy of Canada" is one of your things and you want to make a big issue of the Canadian-ness of Elizabeth II. Putting your personal interest aside,..., Considering the similarity of your interests to MIESIANIACAL, regarding the 'Monarchist League of Canada' et al [5], can I ask you both not to use this topic for your own political soapbox?. And finally here is the edit summary from DrKiernan (talk · contribs) after reverting one of Triton Rocker edits; unexplained, contentious, potentially misleading....Bjmullan (talk) 08:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Logged. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

A year's block? lmao, I see this "civility parole" has been taken to the extreme as was to be expected. Simply incredible. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

No, it's incredible that he couldn't restrain himself in the face of multiple warnings. Support 1-year block. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

No BW it's become quite clear that TR doesn't take Wikipedia's behavioural policy seriously. He can count himself lucky we're still using blocks of definite duraion. All TR needed to do was be civil and AGF. Endorse 1-year block--Cailil ^talk 12:51, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, good block.  Sandstein  13:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Well played Bjmullen. AGF: the gift that keeps on giving. Triton sounded like a sensible bloke actually, Bjmullen certainly never had anything substantive to counter on any content point of his, so in a way I'm happy he has been released from the depressing need to learn the game himself to be allowed to participate in such complex and debate worthy issues like, does a satellite signal obey geographic or political boundaries, and whether we need references for such daftness. Go and do something usefull with your life Triton, come back maybe when the Irish issue has had it's own arbcom case, and people are put under real civility restrictions, which enforce the whole policy, not just the easy bits that any old gamer can pick up and use so easily as a weapon, and which actually foster real mutual respect, not the fake kind, and allows real, relevant and clueful content argumentation to come first, not last, in these tedious face-offs. Still, what's next on the BISE agenda today. 'Does the British Isles have a coast?'. Well, that sounds like a perfectly normal question to ask, *AGF mode ON*..... MickMacNee (talk) 13:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

TR should've stayed away from the BI stuff, until his sanction expired. GoodDay (talk) 14:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Topic ban instead of block?

I don't have a problem with a one year block, considering he just doesn't get it despite repeated warnings and blocks. However surely a better solution would be to just ban him from the British Isles area entirely, and interaction bans for any editors he's been in conflict with over the issue? This would allow him to get back to other areas of editing where he's apparently been productive. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Considering his campaign against "snitches", I suspect that he's going to have problems wherever he edits. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes but it's a good point. The reason I didn't propose a full topic ban last time was becuase TR already has Black Kite's limited ban (topic banned from editing) in place and I thought the civility parole would resolve his interaction issues - it clearly hasn't had that effect. That said TR did have a history of editing constructively at motor bike topics and I'd hope that when he comes back he returnes to constructive editing, thus banning him from what seems to be a hot-button topic for him might work - I'm open to discussing it anyway--Cailil ^talk 13:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This result seems odd. Apparently "commenting on editors rather than edits" is a blockable violation of a civility parole, and therefore a violation of WP:CIV? OK, if that's the operating rule, it should be applied everywhere, to everyone; that could make ANI a little complicated; some comments in this multipart thread appear to me to be comments on an editor. It seems to me, for instance, somewhat difficult to categorize speculation about future actions of an editor as "commenting on edits", since the edits haven't happened. So, could someone explain precisely why [10] is such a terribly uncivil edit? Gimmetoo (talk) 14:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

TBH, I don't find the comment overly un-civil. However, a striking-out of it wouldn't hurt either. GoodDay (talk) 14:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

While standing alone it wouldn't have been blockable, Cailil's civility parole specifically called out assuming bad faith. Since TR explicitly made an accusation of bad faith editing in the diff above, it was a clear violation of the parole.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

That's an interesting interpretation, Sarek. The "civility parole" invoked CP01 of WP:GS/BI, which does not refer to assuming bad faith, and so doesn't directly authorize any sanction specifically calling out "assuming bad faith". Or are you arguing that "no assuming bad faith" is authorized implicitly in WP:NPA or WP:CIV, which are mentioned in CP01? Furthermore, the application of the "civility parole" [11] mentioned a "consensus" at ANI, and the link goes to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive641#Expansion_of_sanctions_at_WP:GS.2FBI, where I don't see the specific wording of the specific civility parole for Triton discussed. Gimmetoo (talk) 19:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The wording of his notification was quite clear. If he didn't like it, he should have appealed it -- and screaming about a "kangaroo court" is not an appeal -- instead of violating it. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:06, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Any phrasing of any appeal could have been construed as a violation of AGF... Gimmetoo (talk) 20:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The user's talk page ("If you wish to harass me, please do so below.") in combination with the history is indicative of a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality Wikipedia is better off without. However, the longest previous block was 1 month; it's possible that something less than a year would be better, like 3 months - assuming that there is any hope of the user reforming. (And if there isn't, we might as well indef now as wait for more trouble.) Rd232 ^talk 14:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Call me an old softy, but I believe TR should be only topic-banned for a year. AFAIK, his behaviour on other topics is cool. GoodDay (talk) 14:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Per the discussion with NcmV at the implementation thread that kind of ban is problematic. However, as I said in the civility parole notice I'm happy to review it after 6 consecutive months of 'clean' editing on wikipedia (not just a 6 month holiday). That goes for the ban too - I'd be happy to review it or let it be reviewed by the community after 6 consecutive months of constructive editing. The ball is firmly in TR's court all he needs to do is accept and abide by policy in spirit and to letter - if he does that then the restrictions will be lifted--Cailil ^talk 14:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Triton Rocker came off his one month block @ 14:55 by blanking his user page. One hour and eight minutes later on on his third edit he attacked me. He never retracted nor did he accept that his edit was wrong. I believe that trying to get Triton Rocker to abide by any rules here would be very difficult. I fully support the one year block. Just for information (particular to Triton Rocker and MickMacNee) my name on Wikipedia is Bjmullan and not Bjmullen, Mullan or Mr Mullan. I would thank you to respect that. Bjmullan (talk) 15:27, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't talk to me about respect. In response to this 'attack', you threatened Triton in not one but two places, you went to his talk page saying incivil and baiting things like "When will you ever learn?", and you filed this ANI report, all before he had even made another edit, let alone had a chance to accede to your demands to redact the comment and flaggelate himself. You should frankly count yourself lucky that the adminning of this topic area is so transparently one sided. Wait a few minutes, and I'll probably get a months block for mispelling your user name, even though it was clearly just a mistake. Any admin interested in your insinuation it was anything other? I didn't think so. Or maybe you can petition for me to be put under a spelling probation eh. I'll start saving my pennies to fight the case you will clearly inevitably bring for mental anguish. You do anything and everything except actually defending your content edits, so if you're looking for respect, don't look in my direction, I am not one of these people who believes AGF is indefinite and one-sided. MickMacNee (talk) 16:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Multiple blocks already for topic ban evasion. AGF doesn't ask us to completely abandon common sense and give 10 slaps on the wrist, thinking, "Hmm, maybe there won't be an 11th time. Then I might have to give him a big finger wagging. That'll learn 'em." Vodello (talk) 03:28, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

On good faith, and being taken for total mugs

OK then, if people think that we should all AGF to a man in this topic, let's take a wander to the BISE page and examine the latest report shall we? It concerns the novel Storm Warning. Nobody really knows anything about the article or the book, but that's not really important. User HighKing, whose last god knows how many edits have been in or around BISE (I stopped after 500, SPA much?), has clearly gone looking for an article that uses the term, and has found one he thinks he can get the term removed from. It's usage there is not inaccurate, and it has yet to be established why the original editor used it (nobody is even bothering to ask), but HighKing has helpfully suggested how it can be removed, anyway, and asked if anyone has any arguments for or against this, in the wonky way that has somehow been established for BISE, even though supposedly, polling is evil. There are of course, no compelling arguments either way, but for some reason, we are not allowed to question HighKing's reasons for making this, and other, suggestions, without ever coming up with a guideline to mandate such a systematic programme of literary changes. So, would an admin like to suggest what the good faith response to this situation actually is, without breaking the holy AGF? Unless or until admins get real, and call a spade a spade, and deal with it as a whole, then the only thing that will pass for enforcement in this area is this sort of gaming nonsense, while the pedia gets systematically cleaned to adhere to a certain POV, i.e., that 'British Isles' no longer exists as a term, and any and all usage of it at Wikipedia has to conform to completely ridiculous sourcing requirements similar to that applied to 'terrorist', or 'palestinian', infact, even worse half the time. This is time wasting POV pushing nonsense, and it is no suprise people like Triton, who are not prepared to play the game, are so easily eliminated from it in this way. MickMacNee (talk) 16:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Mick you were already warned this month for your behavour at WP:BISE xfd[12]. This is an enforcement thread of an editor under editing restriction. Your issues with BISE and other users are a seperate matter. If you have an evidenced and substantive issue with another user then put it to the community in a concise and neutral way, so that within the parameters laid down in the Troubles RfAr or the BI topic probation we can deal with it, or open and RFC, or try mediation - there are multiple avenues of disute resolution to try. However, wikipedia is not a soapbox and your above edit is in breach of that and of WP:BATTLE. Take a step back and reconsider your approach, and seriously if you have evidence of people misbehaving show me I'm happy to look at it--Cailil ^talk 17:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

It's funny you should mention that Mfd. That was in effect a mini-Rfc on BISE. And the majority opinion of uninvolved editors who bothered to comment?. Their consensus was that it was an illegitmate cabal-like venue which is responsible for POV pushing. What a shocker, a complete surprise, you could have knocked me down with a feather. What was also not a surpise, was that this outcome was completely, totally, and utterly ignored. Just like it is repeatedly ignored here. Just like it would be repeatedly ignored after a full Rfc. Mediation? Would not even be accepted, let alone approached in good faith. Prior arb case? Out of scope (infact, it is the reason HighKing moved into this dispute full time). No, the only people who can do anything about this, short of another arb case, is you lot, and pretending that this latest incident is somehow completely seperate and unrelated to the behaviour I outlined above, is really not the way to go. There is no actual rule that I'm aware of, that you are supposed to restrict yourselves to investigating just the content of the initial report, not least if there is an underlying cause, which there so clearly is. If you want to prevent such reports coming every few months, until the end of time, then for crying out loud, stop ignoring these things. Nobody is ever going to take this through an Rfc just to be ignored, and it is arguably far too late for that anyway, the root causes date back years, and it is far too beneficial for the gamers to keep the status quo for them to ever take any notice of such a thing. On that score, from where I'm standing, Bjmullan's threats, demands and general incivility towards Triton fell foul of every single paragraph of BATTLE. And that was from a grand total of five or so edits. It all worked out pretty well for him though eh? He is the guy laughing his ass off right now at having eliminated an opponent from BISE, because he is now free to carry on and resume the TE style discussion which it looks like another poor and unsuspecting example of that extremely rare beast, a relatively neutral and uninvolved at BISE editor, Quantpole, is about to experience. Maybe he will lose his rag eventually too, find out that nobody in the admin corps even cares why, then say something daft and get himself put under probation, and then suffer the same fate as Triton. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. MickMacNee (talk) 19:48, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Gamers? Jeepers, ya get involved with BISE & you're labeled for life. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Mick you aren't going to get another warning. Stop soapboxing. Stop treating wikipedia like a battleground. And stop attacking other users. Your above edits in this thread[13][14][15] and on TR's talk page[16] are in violation of these policies.
If you have evidence of disruption by other users present diffs, show patterns of behaviour in diffs and leave out the editorial please - we can all can make up our own minds whether the diffs constitute disruption or not.
Again if you want to present evidence of something go ahead but do so in concise and neutral way with diffs. If you are unwilling to do so, and unwilling to attempt dispute resolution you should not make edits that disrupt enforcement threads related to it--Cailil ^talk 20:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I am about as unwilling and unable to deal with this issue, as everybody else was unwilling and unable to deal with POV pushing on Climate Change, or on Isreal-Palestine, or on Macedonia, etc etc etc. You want diffs? Well, i gave you enough info to be going on with, but if you want specifics, what about this from Bjmullan just now, Perhaps you could explain why you think using UK + I is wrong. That was after the person he is speaking to had already stated how he thought it was wrong. This is just the latest example of precisely the sort of incivil and tendentious editing that is the reason editors like Triton are so easily gamed off of that page and into a year's block. You will note that this is Bjmullan talking to the editor who is also relatively new to BISE, and merely trying to give his opinion. So, now you have a diff, what now? Am I still soapboaxing or disrupting this thread with an entirely unrelated issue? Should I still fuck off to the looney bin I apparently rode in from and castigate myself for not having written all this up in an Rfc before mentioning it, or is someone actually going to step up here? And before anyone says 'not blockable', I am only after just the slightest indication that admins will even acknowledge that this one particular edit, which took 5 seconds to find, is an example of incivil/TE behaviour (i.e. in this case, do not deliberately ignore other people's already stated opinions). I won't bore you with the thousand other diffs that would establish the long term pattern needed to get a block if not stopped, I just want to see if there is any market at all among the admin corps for enforcement of this kind of problematic behaviour, to give all of us who are heartily sick of it, just some indication that NPA/AGF are not the only things that matter here, and that the whole of CIVIL is relevant under this civility parole regime, not just the easy bits. MickMacNee (talk) 22:06, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep. Agree. Unfortunately, when, like TR, you are already under restrictions you are easy meat if you can't keep a cool head. Bjmullens edit was not good but TR knew he shouldn't be getting involved in edit wars. Fainites ^barleyscribs 22:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

(outdent)Mick it is very necessary to "bore [us] with the thousand other diffs that would establish the long term pattern" - otherwise we have nothing to go on. We don't do content disputes here on ANi, and if you want to raise an actual issue you need to show context, edit patterns, evidence of misconduct, relevant policies/decisions etc.
As regards the edit you mentioned yes Bjmullan's remark was unnecessary as was Quantpole's use of "disappointing". The conversation is a bit circuitous and the remarks mentioned (by both) are unconstructive. It is a borderline abuse of talk-space by both, but one that could be solved by striking. It is something the patrolling admin (TFOWR) will probably look into ASAP and if he misses it I'll poke him to remind him about it.
I warned you Mick to stop soapboxing and that we don't need the editorial. Stop screeding in wikipedia talk-space or you will be blocked for abusing it yourself--Cailil ^talk 00:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You know what Calil, the only Rfc I'm ever likely to file, is over your apparent wish to give more of a shit about people 'disrupting' non-article space noticeboards, than doing anything about a report of actual POV pushing in actual articles. Which thanks to your game-winning block of Triton, continues unabated. Not that you give a flying fuck of course, for obvious reasons. MickMacNee (talk) 16:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Mick I warned you, I told you it was your last warning, and I answered your question. Your above reply fails WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and WP:SOAP. I'm giving you one opportunity to redact your remarks or I will escalate the matter--Cailil ^talk 20:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
• BTW I've never blocked Triton Rocker--Cailil ^talk 20:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

That's spot on, Mick. All the admins involved here seem far more concerned with talk page etiquette than with the POV pushing, some blatant, some subtle, that continues unabated at the BISE page and elsewhere in connection with the British Isles issue. It sickens me to see what's going on. Triton received a totally uncalled for block and sanctions against him were imposed almost unilaterally when he wasn't even allowed to defend himself, and on it goes. The current block of one year is surely a joke! Triton's remarks that caused it were entirely acceptable under the circumstances when, faced with an editor who disregarded the rules at BISE, he had no option but to complain. I cannot comprehend how supposedly intelligent people, like the involved admins would have us believe they are, fall for this BISE shit hook, line and sinker. I can only assume they have little or no experience of comparable matters in the real world. It's so obvious what's going on here that a baboon would be able to fathom it out, and if that baboon had the wherewithal would impose topic bans on a small number of certain other individuals who are the real root cause of the problems here. The likes of Triton and a few others are merely reacting to a scandalous situation which is being ignored by the few people (admins) capable of doing something about it. LemonMonday Talk 17:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Triton was not banned from discussing the topic, and that's what Triton was doing. Triton's edit seems reasonable and quite civil. I support removing the block entirely. I also support removing any civility parole from Triton at this time. Gimmetoo (talk) 17:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

To make my position clear, I also support removal of the block and the civility parole for Triton Rocker. They are counterproductive in the current environment, and were both imposed in a situation of gross unfairness. LemonMonday Talk 18:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

LM you were warned to stop forum shopping about this. Your edits are displaying a clear battleground mentality further edits to the project like this will be prevented by block. This is your last and final warning--Cailil ^talk 20:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Cailil, it seems that you exist here simply to hand out warning and blocks. Much more of it and you'll be featuring in the Guinness Book of Records. I don't know what you mean by forum shopping and this so-called battle ground mentality. I am merely expressing a view on this very difficult matter, is that a problem for you? Well, it seems to be because every time I return to Wikipedia - and yes, I don't edit that often - you are not far behind issuing warnings and blocking me, no matter what I have to say. If I was not such a generous person willing to assume good faith I'd think you were deliberately targetting my remarks. I note in these threads copious amounts of dialogue the contents of which far, far exceed your own strict requirements for civility and other issues and yet you don't bat an eyelid. Why is that? I said To make my position clear, I also support removal of the block and the civility parole for Triton Rocker. They are counterproductive in the current environment, and were both imposed in a situation of gross unfairness. That is my view. It's obviously not your view but I can't help that. My comment is highly relevant to the current debate even if you don't like it. Your constant warnings and blocking threats are debilitating. Please stop them. Incidentally, it might help if you actually offered some views on the points being made here rather than doling out threats and blocks like there was no tomorrow. LemonMonday Talk 20:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Clarify - sorry Cailil, it wasn't you that blocked me it was User:Jehochman, but you do issue one hell of a lot of warnings and as I say, it would be useful if you actually put some views forward about the whole British Isles thing - what you consider to be the root causes and how these might be dealt with etc. LemonMonday Talk 20:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Point being LM that TR's restrictions have been approved 3 times by community that discussion is over. Brining up again in hope that another admin will remove it is forum shopping and I've asked Jehochman to review your posts in light of my warnings.
"The whole British Isles thing" is under community probation and I will enforce that probation to the best of my ability on both sides. If someone puts forward a case showing in a neutral and cogent way that anyone has been violating that probation I am happy to act on it. But I will not let incivility and ABF pass - that's where problems on WP start.
If we can encourage people who don't like each other to work together productively everyone wins but if someone would rather flaunt WP:5 then they will just be prevented from doing so--Cailil ^talk 21:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not bringing it up in the hope that another admin will overturn it, rather that the community will reconsider it. Anyway, I see what you mean by policy shopping here. I thought PS was looking for a policy to support your POV, something that happens a lot at BISE. Maybe both meanings are right.. LemonMonday Talk 21:24, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Confusing my forums with my policies. LemonMonday Talk 21:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

"It's usage there is not inaccurate". And that phrase neatly encapsulates all I'm finding depressing about this whole "meta-BISE" debate. It's not inaccurate to describe London as being a city in Eurasia. It's also staggeringly unhelpful. This book involves a plane crashing off the Western Isles, and there's seriously an argument being made that we should say it crashed in the British Isles? Really? Surely we should be saying it crashed off the Western Isles? But "not inaccurate" is a new mantra at WT:BISE. "Not inaccurate". Rather than strive for precision and accuracy it's argued we should justify terms because they're "not inaccurate".

There are, obviously, times when "British Isles" is as accurate as it gets. When we're discussing extreme points of the British Isles, any alternative simply doesn't cut it. When the largest area that something occurs in happens to be the British Isles, any larger area simply doesn't cut it. When a source uses the term "British Isles" any other term simply doesn't cut it. And yes, there's POV pushing. Big surprise there. That's in large part the whole reason for WT:BISE existing - to address the POV pushing. But make no mistake - this isn't a one-way push with blind admins not noticing or - worse - siding with one faction. Like every other POV area on the project, it's a a two-way street with both sides (apparently) oblivious to the fact that they're partisan.

So what can I do? What am I not doing that I should be doing? Well, my first goal was to tackle the uncivil POV-pushing. Really - what is the point in tackling civil POV-pushing while turning a blind eye to personal attacks? Was I wrong to adopt that approach? I don't believe so, but I'm open to suggestions. And really, as an admin, what special powers do I have that Mick, say, doesn't? Well, I can block editors for breaching WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Beyond that - not much. Mick can start an RFC just as readily as I can. Would it be appropriate for me to start an RFC or other form of dispute resolution, or would it be better for me to leave it to Mick, LemonMonday or anyone else?

Right now I'm pretty jaded about BISE. When I've tried to mediate in POV disputes in the past both sides behaved more or less equally well (or badly...!) This time it's like one side has a suicide pact. It is fair to say the sanctions have been one-sided to date. It's also fair to say that one side has behaved far, far worse than the other. Both sides push their POV; one side pushes it in such a rude, aggressive manner than it's impossible not to react. I'm really - really! - not big on WP:CIVIL or civility blocks or sanctions. The fact that I've been prepared to block editors for WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA etc should speak volumes. I'd love to be a position where we can start looking at civil POV-pushing, but I'm not going to do that while incivility reigns supreme. Shouting loudly and attacking other editors does not make you right, any more than speaking ultra politely - but the latter at least makes for a far more collegial working environment. TFOWR 19:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

On the face of it you seem to be doing a good job at BISE, but when a detailed examination of the whole British Isles problem is carried out it can be seen that your efforts are actually not helping at all, in fact they are having a detrimental effect. This is because as Mick and a few other have noted, thy do not get to the crux of the matter. Have you ever stepped back and asked yourself the question - "Why do we permit a single user, now assisted by an 'apprentice', to push the anti-British Isles POV to the extent that he has been so successful at it that he now commands a whole project to support his actions"? It's a long question, and a big one, and it requires a big answer. To date a number of us have posed the question but no one who can do anything about it has answered. Maybe you could try? LemonMonday Talk 21:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps LemonMonday either before or after MickMacNee has produces his thousand other diffs that would establish the long term pattern you could layout your detailed examination of the whole BI problem for us all to see? Bjmullan (talk) 21:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Here's the long term pattern. Just keep on clicking the older 500 link. LemonMonday Talk 22:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Am I paranoid? or has this ANI report turned into a Rfc. GoodDay (talk) 21:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Looks that way but I make it a habit not to read the ramblings of Mick I just scan them and look for the comments he invariably makes about HighKing no matter what the subject. Mo ainm~Talk 21:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Let's consider what would happen if I wandered away, taking Cailil and Black Kite with me. BISE would descend into precisely the kind of civil-free nightmare it's been in the past. So that's my number one priority - civility, not answering the "big questions" one side wants me to ask for them, but that they can't - apparently - be bothered to ask themselves in an RFC.

And there's an even bigger question, which you've missed: why do we permit a single user, or group of users, to push any POV? Whether it's pro-Greece or pro-Macedonia, pro-Palestine or pro-Israel, pro-British Isles or anti-British Isles - it happens all over the project. What you're missing, LemonMonday, and I had thought I spelled it out in the post you replied to, is that BISE is about more than just anti-BI. It's about pro-BI pushing, too. As a project we don't have a good answer for POV pushing. I don't have an answer, either. But I believe, strongly, the answer will only come when we recognise that POVs never stand in isolation - there's always an opposing POV. You state "a number of us have posed the question but no one who can do anything about it has answered". Who, exactly, can do anything about "your question"? I'm not going to block civil editors on your say-so. You, however, have as much ability as me - perhaps more so - to raise an RFC. Again, I had thought that I had spelled this out in the post that you replied to. I reiterate: I have the ability to deal with civility. You have the ability to deal with apparent POV pushing. It just requires you to put in the leg-work, and run the risk that other POVs may be identifed. TFOWR 21:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

This discussion has gone way off track. Poor TFOWR, minding his own business when suddenly this turns out to be a critique of of his abilities as an admin monitoring the BISE page. Never mind mate, I think you're doing an excellent job. ;) If there is no further action to be taken shouldn't this be closed? Jack forbes (talk) 22:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Wise words Jack. I total agree with your comments. Bjmullan (talk) 22:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Calill, I could care less what you think anymore. Take me to whatever venue you like, I will relish the opportunity of showing exactly how biased and one sided you really are wrt Irish issues. The POV pushing is carrying on at BISE whether you get your finger out of your ass or not. Well done. MickMacNee (talk) 01:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Most of us learn to live (over time) with Mick's rants, but this is now getting abusive to one of the few admins bothering to put time into a difficult area (see TFOW's comments above on civility). Would an uninvolved admin take a look at this? --Snowded ^TALK 13:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

TFOWR has been doing an outstanding job in the teeth of sometimes really quite extreme provocation. Clearly quite a number of editors need to take a holiday from this issue as they aren't handling the emotion of it well and getting involved in inter-personal flamage rather than focusing on the issues. And I speak as someone who might be associated with the "pro-British-Isles" "camp", if there were camps, which there shouldn't be. Believe it or not (and it's hard to from the above!), we do sometimes achieve reasonably civilised and constructive levels of discourse at BISE and when we do, things can be looked at in fine detail and with objectivity. The name calling is a total distraction and (I'm addressing this to those of you who seem to enjoy doing it) 100% counterproductive from your own viewpoint! Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 15:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Back to the main issue

Back to the main issue. TR was blocked for one year for this edit. Even those who consider this edit somehow faulty ought to view the fault as fairly minor. Even for someone coming off a month block, can this possibly deserve a year? Are we going to apply such a low tolerance to other editors, consistently? Gimmetoo (talk) 16:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

For those under civility parole and behavioural restriction who have repeatedly violated it in an area already under its own community probation - yes we will apply this consistently and we are. This measure has already been reviewed here and on TR's talk page. As has been mentioned before repeatedly bringing it up is an attempt to ask the Other parent and is forum shopping which is a violation of policy. Furthermore as stated to you earlier, attempts to wikilawyer are inappropriate.
And for clarity TR was given the chance to make a redaction of that edit you show but rather he chose to justify that edit, which he was restricted from making, with further ABF here in the above thread. He had notice of this discussion, he has had long enough to acquaint himself with his restriction, and yet he decided to make that comment in that manner anyway--Cailil ^talk 16:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I am disputing the block. ANI is an appropriate place to review a block, and this a thread to review that block. Discussion led to the civility parole. Are you claiming that discussing this is "wikilawyering"? Gimmetoo (talk) 16:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm warning you that you are wiklawyering - an editor under probation or restriction is forbidden from making disruptive edits - full stop. There are no 'if', 'buts' or 'ands'. Big or small the infraction doesnt matter it just matters that TR did it and has not recognized that it was wrong. In case you missed it the block has been reviewed already here and on TR's page. This not the first or second or third time that TR has violated one of his restrictions. People only get so much rope.
From the point of view of wanting to help TR this isn't going to - the only way to help him is to encourage him to accept site policy and his restrictions, and to demonstrate that he will act within those parameters. If he does so I'll review his block myself. User:Magog the Ogre made the same offer hours ago. We're not blocking TR becuase we don't like him - we're blocking him becuase he's being disruptive. If he stops being disruptive he stops being blocked--Cailil ^talk 19:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

"... because he's being disruptive"? I don't see TR adding or removing "BI" (TR seems to be observing TB01), nor do I see that talk page diff as "disruptive" (unless any posts from TR there are automatically considered disruptive). If you're going to block someone for a year, then it ought to be for doing something that's a pretty serious fault. I'm saying I don't see that. I'm about as uninvolved in this as I can imagine anyone being - I don't recall ever interacting with TR or you, or the underlying content dispute - and my opinion is that a "civility" or "disruption" block for that talk page diff would be questionable, and a one year block is grossly excessive. Gimmetoo (talk) 15:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Clarification by blocking admin

Let me clarify something. The direct cause of the block was the line "It takes no degree of intelligence or integrity to surmise that...". This is an indirect way of saying you are a stupid liar -- it's about as uncivil as you can get. An editor who can't even recognize that such a statement is uncivil does not belong on Wikipedia. And this was the third edit after coming off a one-month block. There is really no room to move forward here unless TR demonstrates an understanding of why the statement was uncivil. I'm sorry to say that I haven't had time to follow all the discussion above -- if there is anything in it that addresses the main issue, I would be grateful for a pointer. Looie496 (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

it's about as uncivil as you can get; not really. "You are a stinking fuck pig currently at the top of the fuck pig premiership" - now that's as uncivil as you can get (example only - don't take it as being directed at anyone). Contrary to the view expressed above, Triton's remarks [17] were not a direct attack on another user, despite the provocative action of that user. At worst, Triton's remarks are ambiguous in their direction. Consequently I suggest that a one year block is a substantial over reaction. He made just one edit that someone took exception to, for the wrong reason. I urge the community to declare the block void and have TR reinstated. We can address the sanctions elsewhere, along with a wider consideration of the British Isles issue. In line with TWOFR's recommendations I will be raising an RFC, when I've looked into how to do so. LemonMonday Talk 17:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

For someone who was not on a formal civility parole, it might not have been blockable. However, given that he was on that parole, he should have either kept his head down or appealed. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

There's no reason why anyone should "keep their head down" on anything around here. You're missing the point. I'm trying to tell you that it was not uncivil, and he has appealed but, surprise, surprise, it's been rejected. LemonMonday Talk 18:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

...and several editors are trying to tell you that it was uncivil. Let's looks at two examples, and you can tell me whether you really, truly, believe them to be compliant with the terms of TR's parole:

1. In my opinion, Mullan's edit to the BSkyB topic is a provocative and bad faith edit. I have experienced a number of similarly provocative and bad faith edits from him. Part of the parole involves following Wikipedia:Civil#Assume_good_faith, which states Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, assume that people who work on the project are trying to help, not hurt the project. Everyone makes mistakes, and a reminder is sufficient most of the time, but even when difficult disagreements occur, it may well be that no one involved has any ill intent.
   Assume good faith as much as possible. The Assume Good Faith guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of obvious contrary evidence; however, do not assume any more intentional wrongdoing than the evidence clearly supports, and given equally plausible interpretations of the evidence, choose the most positive one. Attempting to believe the best of your fellow Wikipedians, and they of you, helps to eliminate some of the problems that arise when we communicate only in text, and cannot use all the verbal and visual cues used in talking face-to-face. Are you seriously trying to tell us that "Mullan's edit to the BSkyB topic is a provocative and bad faith edit" represents anything other than an assumption of bad faith?
2. It takes no degree of intelligence or integrity to surmise that a Satellite company serving the British Isles, or from the East of England to the West of Ireland, would also reach the Isle of Man and/or Channel Island. It also takes no effort to find references for one or both of the other group of islands (e.g. "'Isle of Man on Air'"). So what is going on here? Looie496 has covered this above, and I guess you remain unconvinced. However, for the record, I at least consider "It takes no degree of intelligence or integrity to surmise..." to be a serious vio of WP:CIVIL. I'll leave discussions as to Sky's coverage of Western France, their T&Cs that cover the British Isles apart from Ireland, and TR's WP:OR to the talkpage.

Incidentally, this is a good example of pro-BI POV pushing. Here we have three things: (1) a satellite that beams down a signal to Western Europe, from Central France to somewhere East of Ireland; (2) a service marketed in Ireland; and (3) a service marketed in what the broadcaster refers to as "the UK" (it actually includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, but excludes Ireland). There are arguments to be made here for both pro- and con-BI positions, but TR's blind refusal to accept that is what marks TR as a pro-BI partisan. The situation isn't nearly as clear-cut as TR would have us believe.

But I digress. Lemon Monday, TR had ample opportunity to modify their behaviour. It's regrettable that they chose not to. TR was well aware of the civility parole, they had good opportunity to read and understand what was required, they had previously been warned about precisely the kind of remarks which led to this latest block - and yet they chose to make them anyway. TR walked right into this of their own volition. TR had the chance to avoid this, yet chose not to. This isn't rocket science - all that's required is for editors to state their case without referring to other editors. Most participants at BISE managed to understand what was required. TR consistently demonstrated an inability to do so. TFOWR 18:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. His so-called violations, if they were violations at all, were minor in every case. LemonMonday Talk 18:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to tell us that "Mullan's edit to the BSkyB topic is a provocative and bad faith edit" represents anything other than an assumption of bad faith? TFOWR 19:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I explained that above; bad faith is justified in some circumstances - the policy says so. And when you think about it, it's ABF on the part of you and others to not give TR the benefit of the doubt here, because the whole thing is debatable and subjective. Maybe AGF and accept that he wasn't being uncivil? LemonMonday Talk 19:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I missed your "explanation" because you inserted it slap-bang in the middle of my post. (Please don't do that. I sign at the end of my posts for a reason). I've moved your comments to below. I'll reply to them at the end of your comments, not halfway through. I'd appreciate the courtesy of you doing likewise. TFOWR 19:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

This applies: The Assume Good Faith guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of obvious contrary evidence. With certain editors, editing a certain category of article, it's almost impossible to assume good faith, so TR was not in breach of the sanction on this point. LemonMonday Talk 18:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

TR's main objection, and the reason for his remarks, were the actions of Bjmullan in removing BI before raising it at BISE. Bjmullan was clearly seeing how far he could go. The technical discussion is a secondary matter here. LemonMonday Talk 18:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Ye Gods, really? That's your argument? That's not an "explanation" that's desperate wikilawyering - "it wasn't poor Triton Rocker's fault - the nasty other editor made them do it!" Are there any other editors who whom you feel we should never have to assume good faith? Do you have a list? Is it published, perchance, to make life easier for the poor old rest of us? Do you have any real answer - one that involves actual obvious contrary evidence? Backed up, perchance, by diffs and not your personal beliefs? TFOWR 19:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

(outdent)TFOWR is correct you are wikilawyering LemonMonday .
Acusing someone of acting improperly has to be done in a calm neutral way that shows evidence by presenting diffs in order to demonstarte a history and a context. That is completely different from making claims based on some assumed knowledge of what another person's motivations are. Basing an argument on such assumptions is never acceptable. Basing it on evidence, across multiple sites of conflict, that can be freely accessed and weighed is a completely different thing (and one taht take stime and effort). TR, and in fact nobody, at BI has ever bothered to do this becuase the atmosphere is so poisoned by personal invective, assumptions and racial comments. None of which are permited, none of which will ever be tolerated and none of which will go ignored.
If you want us to deal with substntive civil pov pushing show us all a real abuse report that evidences context, history and proves something. If you want an example this was my way to show edit-warring (the collapsable boxes are optional)--Cailil ^talk 19:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

TFOWR, your sarcastic response above is uncalled for and adds nothing to the debate (btw, inserting in the middle of your post was a formatting error, that's all. It didn't call for a "slap hands" attitude from you). I was trying to be civil but it obviously doesn't work. Cailil, I'm just thoroughly tired of your constant complaints about other editors' remarks. I am not going to respond to you again and I wish not to enter into any discussion with you. LemonMonday Talk 20:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I assume that's a "no", then? You don't have any actual evidence, and this is all just your personal opinion? TFOWR 20:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Evidence? There is no evidence here. Everything is a matter of opinion. If I presented a load of diffs they would all be subjected to the opinion of you, me and everyone else. TR was blocked because in the opinion of the blocking editor he was being uncivil. In my opinion he wasn't being uncivil. In your opinion he was being uncivil. There is nothing hard and fast here. Ultimately he is blocked because he's fallen foul of people with power, who've acted purely on their own opinions. I get back to AGF - maybe there should be fewer opinions that assume bad faith. LemonMonday Talk 20:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Crap. Several editors have presented diffs showing TR violating WP:CIVIL and assuming bad faith. You've presented your opinion that the diffs show something different. You've also offered your opinion that TR believed something, and your opinion that that alleged belief was correct. There's plenty hard and fast here - you just don't accept it. Much like the last several times this or similar issues have been raised at ANI or AN. I can dig out diffs if you want - this isn't just my opinion, I do have evidence. TFOWR 20:38, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

LM, you've made a serious allegation of misconduct here against Looie496 (and every sysop that reviewed that block) you need to either substantiate it or withdraw it. You've already been blocked under WP:BATTLE--Cailil ^talk 20:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean by "sysop that reviewed that block"? Did any sysop responding to LR's unblock template have the option or discretion to unblock in this case? Gimmetoo (talk) 15:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes they did and they continue to have that discretion. Also one, MAgog the Ogre, (as I did above) stated exactly what TR needs to do to get unblocked--Cailil ^talk 23:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

LM, what do ya want? the sanctions to be lifted & TR unblocked? Then have drama at BISE? Why would you prefer such things? GoodDay (talk) 21:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Statement from Triton Rocker

The following text is copied from User:Triton Rocker's talk page, at his request. LemonMonday Talk 17:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Looie496 made a very serious procedural mistake (there was no Arbcom sanction) --- and misinterpretation. And yet he block appears to be based on his own further interpretation.

I agree "saying you are a stupid liar" is "as uncivil as you can get" but I did not say it. It is as simple at that. I address a difficult situation, in a difficult context of which Looie496 knows little ... in a formal, polite and civil manner. I really did.

Bjmullan could easily have doubled check on Google before entering an error into the Wikipedia. He did not. That is the sort of integrity I would expect of a Wikipedian --- BEFORE --- they made a edit in an area strewn with POVs and laid the onus of proof onto others.

Satellite Broadcasting

Contributing to an Encyclopedia also requires some applied intelligence. I am sure Bjmullan is intelligent. The question is, did he chose to apply it? Now, anyone considering Satellite Broadcasting in the British Isles for 3 seconds --- least of all someone involved in along term political dispute over it --- would realise that any signal to Britain and Ireland is going to hit the Isle of Man (which is in neither). Therefore, to change a correct "British Isles" to an incorrect "Britain and Ireland" --- AGAINST THE SANCTION --- could be a a bad faith edit.

In response to TOFWR, think again about the accuracy of the content. Satellite Broadcasting has two parts, the signal --- which can goes everywhere --- and the marketing of that signal. In the case of a company, we are not taking about satellite broadcasting per se but the commercial marketing of that signal ... which according to the company report was to the British Isles.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Triton Rocker (talk • contribs)

TR - re-read what I said:

Incidentally, this is a good example of pro-BI POV pushing. Here we have three things: (1) a satellite that beams down a signal to Western Europe, from Central France to somewhere East of Ireland; (2) a service marketed in Ireland; and (3) a service marketed in what the broadcaster refers to as "the UK" (it actually includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, but excludes Ireland). There are arguments to be made here for both pro- and con-BI positions, but TR's blind refusal to accept that is what marks TR as a pro-BI partisan. The situation isn't nearly as clear-cut as TR would have us believe.

The salient part is There are arguments to be made here for both pro- and con-BI positions, but TR's blind refusal to accept that is what marks TR as a pro-BI partisan. The situation isn't nearly as clear-cut as TR would have us believe. You presented the issue as a clear-cut case; I provided Sky links showing that it is not nearly as clear-cut as you would have us believe, and I did that to highlight what I regard as POV pushing. ANI is about behaviour (e.g. POV pushing); it is not about content disputes. TFOWR 09:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Civility

Again, I did NOT say "Mullan's edit was a bad faith edit". I said, " In my opinion, Mullan's edit ...". In the professional circles to which I am used, that is applying civility in an area of disagreement. It is suggesting that I could have been wrong. I spoke in general about intelligence and integrity. I did not say, "Bjmullan is being stupid and has no integrity" --- which would most certainly have been uncivil.

Lastly, in every legal or legalistic procedure I know, "truth" is a pretty good defence. In this case,

the individual who insert the factual content error walks away free,

the individual who drew people's attention to the correct facts is being blocked for a year

endless hours of wasted efforts and energy are expended--Triton Rocker (talk) 03:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC).

I think we need to our eye on the issue of accurate content, value it and give it the first priority. Can we focus the discussion on that rather than what one individual imagines what another individual, whom he has never met, has said?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Triton Rocker (talk • contribs)

On Wikipedia this argument is known as "wikilawyering" - "I hedged what I said so that I could argue it didn't actually imply what every reasonable editor inferred from it."

Picking up on your claim that "the individual who insert the factual content error walks away free" - there is no agreement yet that there was a "factual content error": that's solely your opinion, though one you've repeatedly stated as if it were fact.

Picking up on your claim that "the individual who drew people's attention to the correct facts is being blocked for a year" - you weren't blocked for "[drawing] people's attention to the correct facts": you were blocked for violating your civility parole.

Picking up on your claim that "endless hours of wasted efforts and energy are expended" - I agree. Far too much time has been wasted on this already. I hope much less time will be wasted on it in the future. TFOWR 09:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Topic ban

• I would accept a topic ban from British Isles related topics --- IF --- that topic ban is also extended to Bjmullan. My 'partner' in this 'crime'.

The logic for this is based on Bjmullan history in the area of British Irish naming dispute, and his direct interest in my editing. In short, it takes two to tango. Bjmullan has time and time again played a support roll in HighKing British-Irish naming dispute, doing exactly what he has done in this case. If requested, I am prepared to do the work to evidence this by way of diffs. Most people involved know his position well.

Honestly folks, the British Isles naming dispute has gone well beyond normal standards of "assuming good faith". It has become a contest or Wiki-war with its roots in a nationalistic political dispute going back several hundred years.

I will happily accept defeat on the matter and remove myself if he is fairly taken out of it as well for his part in stirring up this drama. --Triton Rocker (talk) 03:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

No dice. 1 year block. Those asking to continue to assume good faith are asking those involved to grab an electrified fence for the 11th time after it shocked them the previous 10. How many times has he been blocked for evading topic bans? AGF? Really. Vodello (talk) 03:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The following is copied from Triton Rocker's talk page, by request. LemonMonday Talk 10:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Second Comment for ANI

All this talk of "anger", "battle" and "incivility" is a projection and a distraction.

Thank you Gimmetoo. Yes, I was observing TB01. I did not edit war and yet Bjmullan --- who reported my comments here --- did break the sanction and has walked away Scot free.

People, I am perfectly calm. I am also a grown up who writes in a formal manner. I know how to be uncivil. I chose not to be. Yet a new admin decided --- on the basis of an interpretation only --- decides that I was. I offer to you that it was simple inexperience or over-enthusiasm on his behalf and an overreaction which I do not hold against him. However, I do still suggest that Bjmullan's reporting was a deliberate and tactical move within the greater British Isles naming dispute rather than a good faith one and can provide the evidence if requested.

• For all the distractive discussion, I note that no one is willing to address the inciting incident. Bjmullan's removal of the term British Isles --- AGAINST SANCTIONS --- and its --- ERRONEOUS --- replacement with "United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland" at British Sky Broadcasting. A factual error which remains 14 days later, see: [18].

• Additionally, I note that it contains a confusing piped link which we also agreed at WT:BISE to avoid.

One of the comments that has been made before is that all the blocks, bans and sanctions that are being thrown around in this dispute are one sided. Here we have another case where one editor breaks a sanction inserting Republic of Ireland and it is overlooked and another editor defending the correct use of British Isles (from good references) raises the issue, and is banned.

One of the problems with Cailil's original sanction is that it was not well defined, that its real meaning was hidden. The term "incivility" is too broad, open to abuseful misinterpretation and not helpful for new admins.

In my opinion, and please allow me to be open and honest, Cailil's original sanction was really as simple as, "Stop pointing out that the editors removing the term "British Isles" are Irish republicans or nationalists ... even if they self-disclose their nationalist sentiments on their user or talk pages". Whereas I do not think that I have really been "uncivil", it is true that I did repeatedly point out that the editors removing the term "British Isles", and campaigning against its use, are Irish republicans or nationalists, and I stopped.

As an aside, I do think that discussions at ANI should be "without prejudice" (in its legal meaning), exempt from petty interpretations of "incivility" and not permissible as further evidence against an individual --- It is impossible to discuss an issue without discussing an issue, e.g. that there are nationalist agenda's at play here which need to be taken into consideration and discussed at a place like this. I do not know where is the correct place is.

• My position is neither 'pro' nor 'con' either side of the nationalist dispute but remains that politics should be kept out of non-political areas.--Triton Rocker (talk) 04:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The political Pov stuff is irrelevant to me. As for civility stuff? when you (TR) are unblocked, I'd recommend mentorship for you. GoodDay (talk) 14:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Reponse to Cailil

"And for clarity TR was given the chance to make a redaction of that edit ... Cailil talk 16:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)"

Actually, no. I made one small edit, placed one comment, and was working on a different response to the ongoing discussion altogether at which point I found myself blocked.

One question. As you are the one who defined my ban --- whilst a false but prejudicial checkuser was ongoing and I was blocked from defending myself --- can I ask if it is truly punitively "uncivil" to bring into consideration that so many of the individuals involved in this attack against me are self-disclosed Irish or of Irish descent?

Please note, I am politely asking permission to raise this issue here first --- not raising it.

Thank you. --Triton Rocker (talk) 05:11, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

You were asked to strike the edit here (at 17:10, 25 October 2010) and here (at 17:13, 25 October 2010). You weren't blocked until 05:17, 26 October 2010 (over 12 hours later). The "one small edit, plac[ing] one comment" you made was here (16:03, 25 October 2010) (13 hours prior to your block). A civility parole was suggested by Cailil at ANI, and modified and agreed by the community—as you already know. The implication that an editor's nationality or descent affects their editing constitutes as "ill-considered accusation of impropriety". Incidentally, nearly all the editors involved at BISE are British or Irish, or of recent British or Irish descent (I'm using the "recent" qualifier to avoid including Canadian or New Zealand editors, etc). TFOWR 08:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC) Originally replied at TR's talkpage; copied across from there. TFOWR 10:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I left out your comment. I wan't sure whether to add it or not. LemonMonday Talk 10:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

MickMacNee

• Melniboné (AfD discussion)

MickMacNee (talk · contribs) nominated the article for discussion with a slim rationale. I asked him to elaborate and got this response. Thats all really. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 08:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Remember to notify editors when reporting them to ANI. I have now done this for you. --Stickee (talk) 08:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that Stickee, had to pop out Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 09:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

we let Mick edit here... why? Jack Merridew 08:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I've never really had the patience to read through Mick's tl;dr replies I've seen on this page in some other threads.. but this edit is horribly WP:POINT stricken. It stands on it's own its so pointy. I'm with Jack here.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 09:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I think it was a pointy attack at the Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Melniboné discussion, where I noted the lack of references and that the original editor had picked out the sentence with British Isles in it for deletion. It's a short discussion, you can see the background for Mick's action there anyway. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Block's aren't supposed to be punitive, but... argh! S.G.^(GH) _ping! 10:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Mick isn't necessarily the bogeyman he's sometimes thought to be. He comes in for a lot of flak because some folk believe using naughty words is forbidden, which is, frankly, crap. Mick speaks his mind, and frequently calls a spade a spade (actually, he usually calls a spade a "bloody spade", but that's by-the-by...) He's a regular at WP:ITN/C where he usually voices a contrarian viewpoint, which is welcome (well, by me at least). I genuinely believe Wikipedia needs editors who aren't afraid to voice unpopular opinions.

Mick does occasionally stray from the path of WP:SPADE onto tl;dr territory. That's a shame, as I think that beneath the walls of text there may be a valid point - but this isn't an issue for ANI.

What is an issue for ANI is WP:POINT. This report, and the circumstances that led to it, is not the first time Mick's tried to make a point like this. The common feature here is Mick's support for the term "British Isles" (albeit dressed up as apparent disdain for the term). Mick would be better served either taking it to an RFC or, if Mick feels that that won't, for whatever reason, work then dropping it altogether. I'd prefer the former, but really I don't care just so long as this is the last WP:POINT made. TFOWR 12:12, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: I'd like to add to this the pointy, tendentious and abusive remarks made by Mick above (to me) in the above sub-thread. Particularly his last one which is a peach[19].
  While I take TFOWR's point that using vulgarities is not forbidden per se using them in a screed of abuse at any other user is forbidden (per WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:TPG). Using wikipedia as a forum is forbidden (per WP:NOT & WP:TPG).
  This AFD comes after his behaviour at the WP:BISE mfd a few days ago - which was harassing, incivil and soapy and while I sympathize with his actual point there the way he made it was inappropriate. His editing style are contributing to a poisonous atmosphere in an area already under community probation (see WP:GS) he is in fact in breach of that probation with this pointy afd - the question is now what after all of this should be done--Cailil ^talk 14:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

  Aye, apologies Cailil: my comments on profanity were in no way intended to justify attacks on, or rudeness to, other editors. TFOWR 16:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

  Not taken that way at all TFOWR - I undestand your point but I just want to underline why I take this matter so seriously--Cailil ^talk 16:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• I think this is a pretty clear WP:POINT violation, but I don't see any need to block. To block would be punitive. I disagree that Mick's usual editing style is a problem otherwise. He's just someone who doesn't sugar-coat things. There does seem to be a rising frustration level recently, which is understandable given that WP:BISE is somehow still allowed to exist even after the WP:GS/BI sanctions were imposed. People are misciting WP:SOAP a lot here. It's about advocacy of issues external to Wikipedia, not writing passionately about internal issues. Gigs (talk) 17:44, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

MickMacNee indef blocked

Note: MMN cannot presently be blocked under WP:GS/BI so it should be assumed that the block was imposed under general site policies. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• Okay. If a user with this immense block log continues to severely violate Wikipedia conduct rules, such as by filing that AfD and making such comments, and is furthermore dismissive of the concerns raised in reaction to this, this indicates that they have no intention of complying with the fundamental rules of interaction in a collaborative project and should be indefinitely blocked to prevent further disruption. Unless somebody can come up with a compelling reason not to do that, I'll be implementing that block shortly.  Sandstein  22:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I would support such an action, given that they've shown they have absolutely no care for the editing environment here, and will do whatever they want to get their way, or prove some point. WP:DE and all that.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 05:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

All right, I have blocked MickMacNee indefinitely as the only way to prevent such disruption (and the associated drama) in the future. In view of his block log I do not believe that any assurances he may give about future good conduct are credible, because his persistently aggressive mode of editing can only be explained as reflecting aspects of his character that are very difficult or impossible for a person to change at will. As such, I ask that any unblock of MickMacNee be considered, if at all, only after thorough discussion in a community forum and accompanied by measures that prevent his returning to the topic areas in which he has been disruptive. (I am not proposing such measures at this time because the disruption does not seem to be restricted to a clearly identifiable topic and a full block therefore appears to be required).  Sandstein  07:47, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the block. Looking through the threads about the most recent incident, I see an user that has no intention of following our core policies. Editors and admins working collaboratively to write the encyclopedia in areas where natural differences of opinion are common don't need the extra burden someone who deliberately provokes controversy to make a point, and insults the good faith work of other users. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 08:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree with the block. First off, the blocking admin threatened the block at 22:00 UTC or thereabouts, then carried out the block at 07:00 UTC. That gave nine hours for comment, but nine hours during which the vast majority of interested parties (i.e. those in the UK and Ireland time zone) would have been in bed! Nice One, NOT. However, more importantly, the block is a travesty because above all Mick is a content adder. In other words, he adds value to Wikipedia, which is more than the majority of jobsworth petty bureaucrats who haunt this page do. Give me an uncivil content adder any day. They are of much more benefit to Wikipedia than a non-content adding bureaucrat! And before you mention it, yes, I don't add too much content, but neither am I blocking those that do. LemonMonday Talk 10:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

In other words, you think because a user makes many content contributions, they're allowed to poison the well. Sorry, but that isn't the way things work here. Good behavior does not excuse bad behavior, especially when such bad behavior has created so much disruption.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 10:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

You are not looking in the right place for disruption. Mick is not disruptive, he just calls a spade a spade. If you don't like his comments ignore them. He is a content adder! If you want to see real disruption look at the root cause as to why we have the BISE page. LemonMonday Talk 10:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

You are unaware of where I am looking, so don't act like I do. I'm looking in perfectly the right place; incivility, point violations, personal attacks. Adding content doesn't give you a right to treat other people like trash. Oh, and don't tell me about 'real disruption'. I deal with sockpuppets and ban evaders constantly. I've seen real disruption, that two edit filters, and over 500 blocks haven't solved, from a single user.. But I digress, disruption is disruption. Adding content doesn't give you the right to treat people like trash, to treat them like shit. No amount of saying the opposite will change the cold hard fact that this user has been disruptive, and as with all disruption, people have lost their patience, they have figured out that it isn't going to stop, and they've done something about it. You are really hardly one to talk down to others about their contributions, when you have about as much as could be easily surpassed in a day's time. I realize I have had blocks for incivility myself, but that's something I'm trying to change, unlike the user above. This is the third time I've said it, but that doesn't make it lose any value; content contributions doesn't give one the right to poison the well. This project is a community project, and killing off the community will only hinder the project. You hardly have the right to say that Mick has the right to insult people. If you're disruptive to the community process, you'll be blocked. It's been true of many disruptive users, as it is, and will be, of Mick.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 10:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course, this coming from a user who has been blocked for the same.. personal attacks, assuming bad faith.. As I said, I've had troubles in the past with the same; the big difference here is that I'm trying to change my behavior. But now, I've realized something; it is pointless arguing with you, you've made it abundantly clear you'll support Mick to the ends of the earth. They've 'done no wrong', 'they're completely in the right to be treating people like that', etc. It's pointless arguing with someone who is unwilling to see an abundant problem for what it is.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 10:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Good block, the attitude that, sure we all know what Mick is like and we just ignore him does nothing for the collaborate nature of the project and we shouldn't have to put up with his constant sniping and attacks. Mo ainm~Talk 10:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• Good block, agree that there is no indication anything will change. → ROUX ₪ 11:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
• Definitely a good block. this user has shown nothing but contempt for the general standards of community behaviour. Physchim62 (talk) 11:44, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
• Looks good to me. His long term behaviour is hugely indicative of someone who is inherently unsuited to a collaborative project. I've actually agreed with quite a few of his opinions in the past and he's undoubtedly made some good contributions - but in the big picture I just don't think his good contributions in any way outweigh the acrimony caused by his other actions - egregious disregard for the general community standards, and a rather poisonous attitude to many other contributors that just doesn't seem to go away. ~ mazca ^talk 11:47, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
• Good block. MickMacNee has shown nothing but contempt for the whole concept of civility and using the excuses he is a great content editor, or he calls a spade a spade just doesn't wash anymore. Bjmullan (talk) 12:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• Concur with the block, but... I think a longer block, albeit not indefinite is in order here. I see a few week-long blocks and that is certainly indicative of problems, but I also have seen a side of this user that was quite helpful. I'm not willing to throw away the key. I think a 2-3 month timeout would be more than sufficient. I also think he could be unblocked to participate in this discussion. — BQZip01 — ^talk 12:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
  • As that MickMacNee has not acknowledged problem with his own conduct and agreed to make changes in his editing approach, for now MickMacNee can comment on his talk page and have his comments copied here. I'm not seeing any willingness on his part to alter his conduct to follow policy. So, I see little point in unblocking. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 13:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose, all Mick needs is a topic-ban from the 'British Isles' related stuff 'or' more accurately those articles talkpages. Mick may complain alot about BISE, but he's never participated in it 'or' disrupted it. Basically, the guy's being blocked for having a big mouth. GoodDay (talk) 14:31, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• The ban you propose would not be enough to prevent him from engaging in further disruption. His last block was for edit-warring about a French footballer, and the present incident concerns a disruptive deletion nomination of an article about a fictional island (and his reaction to concerns over said disruption, which includes the statement "my parents told me that the British were evil baby raping bastards"). He is not blocked for having a big mouth, but for continuing to disrupt the project over a span of multiple years despite many blocks.  Sandstein  15:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I still argue, the best way to deal with Mick (for those who are annoyed by him), is to ignore him. Having said that, I'm just 1 voice & so I can't possibly repeal his block. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

First, Afds can not be ignored. Also, convincing hundreds if not thousands of people to ignore Mick is not practical. So, we need to either block Mick or have him agree to abide by community developed editing restrictions. Of course, he can appeal to arbcom's Bann Appeal SubCcommittee, too. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 16:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I just don't support banning editors unless they've committed sock-puppetry or have uttered open threats to others. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I concur totally with GoodDay. This is effectively a ban imposed without a consensus as a result of a stale ANI thread that has now turned into a desperate attempt to legitimise it while Mick can't defend himself. Is Mick annoying? Yes. Is he sometimes impolite or even uncivil? Yes. Does he have a habit of getting into edit wars? Yes. Are any of these so egregious as to totally cancel out all the good he does here? Absolutely not. I would support wholeheartedly some form of editing restriction, but this attempt to legitimise a unilateral ban by a single admin would set a very dangerous precedent. And I don't even particularly like the guy! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

This is not a ban, but a block, intended to prevent recurring disruption until such time as another equally effective measure to prevent further disruption is found. Just like, for instance, your own most recent indef block. I am not confident that, say, a topic ban from the "British Isles" topic would be equally effective, but you are free to propose it to the community as an alternative.  Sandstein  18:11, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support a block. Those kind of comments are not really acceptable for a collaborative process if you're just going to delete something you don't like on sight, where's the collaboration? If anything else, those comments (whether his or not) about the British Isles seem to fall foul of WP:LABEL to me. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 18:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse MickMacNee's long-term disruption of this project needs to end. If this is de facto a community ban, that's perfectly fine with me. POINT, CIVIL, NPA and the like have long been ignored by this editor. The block log is prima facie proof that shorter corrective measures have failed, often dramatically. Courcelles 21:59, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse with the clear understanding that this is a block to let Mick figure out what he needs to change in his editing style, and not any kind of community ban. Mick is a good user, hardworking and with a good brain, but he has become worn out by the constant battling over certain issues and needs to take a beak from them. Block until he figures it out. --John (talk) 03:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• Non-admin Endorse I have an ugly history with this user, having requested in a previous ANI that he be blocked indefinately for chronic, gross incivility earlier this month. This user knows the civility guidelines and willingly and maliciously ignores them. Sven Manguard _Talk 04:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• Not too sure about this block. MickMacNee's last activity before he was blocked was to greatly expand the Power Snooker article, now nominated for DYK. Christopher Connor (talk) 04:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Your point being because he has a DYK nomination he shouldn't be blocked? Good contributions can't be used as a currency to counter incredibly poor behavior. I can't trade a DYK for a screw you. Grsz¹¹ 04:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
    • The block was to stop him causing further disruption but there was a few days between the two, and in the meantime he made constructive edits. Christopher Connor (talk) 05:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• Excellent block. Although I don't believe MMN should be de facto banned. Any unblock should come with a restriction on participation at AfD limiting MMN to nominating articles, and one challenge per editor in discussions about the AfD or that editors support or opposition to the AfD. A civility restriction should be imposed as a condition for unblocking too. - Disclosure. Regulars of this board are probably aware that I have previous history with MMN, so I don't come here in a neutral capacity. That said, I believe that my proposals are fair and not aimed at "eliminating" MMN as an opponent, a charge he frequently directs at me. Mjroots (talk) 05:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• Beyond my note at the top of this subthread, I only have three other points to add. Firstly, in any legitimate Community review or appeal, administrators don't get anymore weight in their views than editors. So rather than state whether you are an admin or not, it would be better to explicitly state your level of involvement with the user (if any) - that's my second point. Finally, if requested, the person imposing the block (or the people who endorse the block) would need to demonstrate why such a serious measure is required. In other words, if the block was imposed for reasons not limited to a single AFD in the British Isles area, or a single response to a concern about the AFD, those reasons would need to be listed and shown in sufficient detail after someone requests those reasons. Obviously, this issue may not arise where no such request is made. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• Ncm, MickMacNee's behaviour at AfD and DRV has been brought up many times. An insight will be gained from some of the linked AfDs and DRVs at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mjroots. Hence the restriction I proposed above. Mjroots (talk) 09:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Problem on BLP noticeboard

• Ronz (talk · contribs)
• QuackGuru (talk · contribs)
• Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs)
• Griswaldo (talk · contribs)
• The Founders Intent (talk · contribs)

Ronz (talk · contribs) and user QuackGuru (talk · contribs) have unfortunately teamed up to stonewall a debate on the BLP noticeboard here. The debate has been going on at length for a few days, with Ronz as the sole figure claiming that there is some BLP issue. He has presented no evidence that there is any BLP issue involved, despite being asked repeatedly to do so. Yesterday I made a final request for him to explain why this was a BLP issue [20]. he refused to do so, quibbling over other details with other editors [21], [22]. I reminded him again here [23] that he needed to give an explanation, yet he was still non-responsive and tried to mark the issue as 'stuck' [24]. Consequently I closed the issue 'resolved as unfounded' [25]. there was then a quick series of reverts: Ronz [26], Griswaldo [27], Ronz again [28], Me [29], Ronz again [30], Griswaldo (who removed the archive entirely) [31], and I restored it here [32]), and then finally QuackGuru stepped in here. [33]. His involvement is because he and Ronz have been spamming my talk page (something like 50 or 60 posts between the two of them over the last couple of days- check the history), and have been discussing me independently [34].

As far as I can see, Ronz is engaged in desperately tendentious editing, edit warring, user page harassment, and possibly wp:canvassing, all to cover the fact that he cannot make even a mildly convincing case that there is a BLP issue about Barrett. As other editors have reminded him, he is a bit sensitive on the issue of Barrett, and I can accept that, but he's gone a bit off the deep end with it this time.

I'm also a bit tired of the way he plays political games. He is repeatedly saying things like "It was worth a try looking for ways to work with you"[35], or "If you're not willing to discuss the matter" [36], or "Can we work out some compromise" [37], or "shall we get a third party to work with us both" [38], as though he were actually interested in achieving a compromise. But each time I try to work with him he back-peddles: here I ask him what he'd like for a compromise [39], but he says he doesn't have anything in mind [40]; here I suggest that we take the issue to wikiquette as a third party [41], but he refuses [42]. This is such an obvious effort to create the impression of being reasonable while actually being completely unreasonable - essentially another stonewalling tactic like his refusal to explain the BLP issue above. it's very disconcerting, and I don't quite know what to do about an editor who is so obviously comfortable trying to game the system.

I'll go notify him and quackguru now, and leave the discussion up to you guys. --Ludwigs2 18:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

• I'm probably the biggest BLP Hawk on this site, but I can see no issue here. In order to assess the reliability of a source, one needs to discuss the credibility of the person making the claims. Everything here looks like fair comment and justified discussion. I think stuff like this should probably be aggressively archived once a conclusion is reached, and pages ought to be {noindex}, but even that's probably being over-cautious. Nothing here is libellous in my quick checking, and nothing is gratuitous. (Of course, I may be missing something.)--Scott Mac 18:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• I concur with Scott Mac: there is no BLP issue to justify the edits made in the name of BLP. Making edits and calling them "BLP" when no BLP issue actually applies is disruptive editing, as I've articulated in WP:CRYBLP. Jclemens (talk) 21:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Continued discussion on BLPN dispute below --Ronz (talk) 22:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Two FYIs:

1. Ronz has apparently decided to boycott this ANI discussion and respond to commenting editors on their talk pages (e.g. [43], and see his explanation here). I anticipated this, but I don't suppose it makes much difference.
2. It seems likely that the WQA listed below will be closed and merged in here, to avoid separate discussions. I'll remove the link below if that happens. --Ludwigs2 20:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Ronz

(merged related discussion from WQA per suggestions there)

Ronz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to think that he can act unilaterally in ways that are, in my view, disruptive to the project.

I encountered Ronz when I engaged an RS/N request regarding Weston A. Price and a source being used in that entry by fringe health critic Stephen Barrett - see here. The consensus in this discussion, as well as a similar discussion at the FT/N, has been that Barrett, while a notable critic of contemporary fringe science/health theories is not a reliable source on Weston Price, or the historical context in question. User:Ronz appears not to accept this and has been acting disruptively in relation to those whose comments appear to him to be at all critical of Stephen Barrett. In fact he appears so "sensitive" to criticism of Stephen Barrett, that others regularly comment on it when they encounter his behavior - [44], [45]. Over the last few days Ronz has being acting disruptively in this area, at times under the claim of WP:BLP and of protecting Barrett from "libel" and "defamation".

• Removing talk page comments he doesn't like, then collapsing them after being reverted and edit warring to keep them collapsed, and then finally after being reverted again putting his own subject headings over the comments.
• Issuing BLP warnings to editors who in good faith are trying to evaluate the reliability of Barrett as a source - Ludwigs2, Hans Adler, The Founders Intent, BruceGrubb, and Griswaldo
• Unilaterally deleting talk page comments, claiming that they are BLP violations - [46],[47]

I should note that Ronz did not refactor the comments he deleted or ask the editor who posted them to refactor the comments but instead chose to remove them in entirety. When he started these deletions a couple of editors who objected, reverted him, myself included. I tried to tell him to get some outside input on the BLP matter since he appeared alone in his belief that there was a violation. He made no efforts to do so, and just kept reverting. It was made clear to me that since a BLP concern was raised by Ronz I should not edit war to restore them so I stopped reverting him, and instead started a thread at the BLP/N. Not a single editor commenting at the BLP/N has agreed with Ronz assessment of there being BLP violation in the deleted text, yet Ronz is now trying to WP:GAME the system by tagging the conversation as "stuck" and later as having "no consensus". He did the same thing at the FT/N discussion, also declaring it "stuck" and edit warring to keep it in, despite a clear consensus on several matters. He doesn't agree with the consensus of course, and it relates directly to Barrett's reliability as a source on Weston Price, of course. In my view this activity is disruptive. Ronz clearly has a "sensitivity" when it comes to Barrett and it isn't helpful. What can be done?Griswaldo (talk) 18:44, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The actions of removing other people's comments, hiding them, edit-warring on closing discussions, and the use of BLP warnings on other users involved in the discussion does seem like a major issue that needs to be addressed. These are not actions that a good-purposed contributor to Wikipedia should be making. Silverseren^C 20:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Block Ronz for 24h in order to prevent further disruption. Basket of Puppies 21:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Note that 1) Ronz has been notified, 2) has chosen to respond on individual talk pages, rather than here at ANI, and 3) Basket of Puppies' comment is, at this point, an unimplemented suggestion. Jclemens (talk) 21:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd support BoP's suggestion, just for the continued refactoring of talkpages. Ronz can carry a torch for Stehpen Barratt all he likes, but that doesn't give him the right to rewrite what other people wrote, or try to unilaterally shut down discussion. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I just received a message from Ronz on my talkpage. It's rather odd for him not to discuss the issue here and instead badger people on their talk pages. Basket of Puppies 21:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

When someone tries that with me, I usually just delete the edit and tell 'em to come here. It can be a tactic for dispersing the argument all over the 'pedia, and preventing it gathering momentum in any location. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:44, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was about to suggest that it's probably wise for Ronz not to put in an appearance here - he's so far into the red on this issue that I don't think there's much he can do to salvage things. But I'll bow to Elen's suggestion as being both more honest and more practical. --Ludwigs2 21:48, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

First, "As long as discussion is happening, blocking is not required." The FTN dispute is moving along nicely in contrast to where it was just a day ago. I've indicated that I will continue to discuss the BLPN issues, just in a venue where WP:CON and WP:TALK are followed. Are there any other disputes that aren't being discussed that need to be? --Ronz (talk) 21:57, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Discussion between Ronz and Ludwigs2

Ronz, there's still the above-mentioned issues to cover:

1. disruptive editing: your refusal to provide a meaningful rationale for the BLP dispute, your refactoring of talk page comments without discussion, and your tendentious efforts to keep the from being closed as unfounded despite your refusal to provide a rationale.
2. user page harassment: Your multitudinous posts to the user talk pages of the people you are arguing with (since the 20th I count 15 posts to BruceGrubb, 34 to Griswaldo, 31 to the Founders Intent, and 50 to me), mostly argumentative posts or warning templates.
3. gaming the system: deceptive practices such as your attempts to make it look like I wasn't trying to cooperate with you, or your initial intent to avoid this ANI thread.
4. apparent canvassing to help an edit war: why else would QuackGuru (who had not participated in the BLP thread to that point) suddenly appear to carry out a revert just moments after you reached your 3rr limit?

As far as I'm concerned these all still need explaining. each individual act may or may not be explainable, but as a whole they speak to a definite intent to disrupt things sufficiently that you could block losing a BLP discussion that you had no grounds to begin in the first place. That is not responsible editing. --Ludwigs2 23:34, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any accusations being made in good faith. If there are, my apologies for missing them in this morass. --Ronz (talk) 00:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't actually expect you to respond, Ronz. I'm simply reminding others that the problems go far beyond the trifling thing you present. I trust that they will examine the case thoughtfully and make up their own minds about it. --Ludwigs2 01:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you think you made one in good faith? If so, point it out and I'll address it. --Ronz (talk) 02:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I made all of them in good faith. I may be wrong, and I will certainly accept whatever the consensus here is, but this is precisely how it appears to me. If you have a different explanation of what happened this would be the time to share it. Frankly, I don't see any other explanation for your behavior, but I don't like this explanation, so I'd welcome a different one one. it's up to you. --Ludwigs2 02:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The evidence I've provided for your "apparent canvassing" accusation demonstrates otherwise, as does your comment of support [48]. Pick one where you're not making the same mistakes of misrepresenting the situation and not assuming good faith. There's got to be at least one in all of them. I can't believe I've haven't overlooked something. --Ronz (talk) 03:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

If you don't want to see good faith, Ronz, you're not going to see good faith no matter what I do. That is not my problem. I'm happy to let others decide the issue after reviewing the material; I thought you might want the chance to explain things, but you should do what you think is in your best interests. The only observation I'll make is that attacking me is probably not in your best interests right now. You don't really have any credible evidence that I've done anything in bad faith, and casting aspersions wildly in the hopes that one might stick is just going to reinforce the idea that you're trying to game the system. --Ludwigs2 03:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry everyone for stirring him up like this. I don't believe he'll stop. --Ronz (talk) 03:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

LOL - God, you are such an incomparable ###. You're going to play the wounded buffalo card to the hilt, aren't you? Well, be it as it may. all the evidence is on my side, and while no one may want to do anything about it, there's not much you can do about the facts of the matter. --Ludwigs2 04:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Apparent canvassing

Responding in good faith to Basket of Puppies's request that I address some of Ludwigs2's accusations:

I don't see this as a good faith accusation. Ludwigs2 apparently doesn't understand WP:CANVAS, and misrepresents the situation, in violation of WP:TALK (especially WP:TALKNO) and WP:AGF. I made one revert, so wasn't at any 3rr limit. I did work to change his misrepresentation of consensus there (a WP:TALK and WP:CON violation on his part), and indicated so in my edit summary [49] and in a comment to Ludwigs2 [50]. I changed the summary again [51] and continued discussing the matter with Ludwigs2 [52] and Griswaldo [53] [54].

I contacted QuackGuru 14:33, 26 Oct two hours earlier than my first edited related to the supposed canvassing 16:42, 26 Oct. My reason for contacting QuackGuru was to let him know I noticed that Ludwigs2 was treating him similar to the way he was treating me.

To answer Ludwigs2's question, why else would QuackGuru appear? I think it would be best just to take Quackguru in good faith that he actually meant what he wrote in his edit summary, "heavily involved editor shoudld not close the thread when there is possible BLP issues." [55] --Ronz (talk) 01:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Behavior of Ludwigs2

Ludwigs behavior in this dispute demonstrates an inability to understand or follow Wikipedia's behavioral policies/guidelines, especially WP:CIVIL, WP:TALK, WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:CON, and WP:DR: Besides his contributions to this ANI, his talk page provides ample additional evidence: User_talk:Ludwigs2#BLP_concerns [56] User_talk:Ludwigs2#Thanks_-_Weston_Price_discussions User_talk:Ludwigs2#Collapsing_text User_talk:Ludwigs2#Marking_your_ArbCom_requestsUser_talk:Ludwigs2#BLPN. If an editor would like diffs, I'm happy to provide them. I doubt there's much need to look beyond the evidence he's provided here in his accusations against me. --Ronz (talk) 00:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

If no one is disputing this, then what would be appropriate motions? --Ronz (talk) 03:19, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

No one disputes what? You're just making unfounded claims again. Provide actual evidence and explain yourself. Simply linking to discussions and to policy pages is pretty meaningless. Not to mention that you're claiming that he has violated virtually every policy he could have. When people look at your links and don't see the violations what are they supposed to do? This is the same frustrating behavior you're exhibiting on the noticeboards and talk pages.Griswaldo (talk) 03:25, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy to provide more foundation for any claim I've made. I am looking to take a break soon, so how about what I've already gone into detail on the "apparent canvassing" accusation? Or maybe the very brief response to his comment of support[57]? --Ronz (talk) 03:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ronz, the canvassing accusation is pretty insignificant here. I'm not entirely sure why Ludwigs2 even made it. You were discussing him with another editor, who knows if it was WP:CANVAS by the letter of the law or not. Either way it has nothing to do with what brought us here, which is your disruptive talk page behavior. Tackle that instead please.Griswaldo (talk) 03:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Wait. This section is for discussing Ludwigs2's behavior. Sounds like you want to discuss mine. I'll wait and see what specifics you offer to see if the discussion should remain here. Can you indicate a specific talk page? Diffs and relevant policies/guidelines would help too. No rush though. I won't have time til after my break. --Ronz (talk) 04:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

And around the circle we go. There is nothing to respond to Ronz, see above.Griswaldo (talk) 04:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

BLPN dispute

You asked for a review. We reviewed it. No one is seeing any issues.--Scott Mac 22:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If you're referring to BLPN, then note the comments there by two other editors at 12:37, 24 Oct and 14:50, 23 Oct.

Further, there is nothing written in WP:BLPTALK on how to handle material "related to making content choices." The exception was made initially 04:37, 25 November 2007 , and appears to be related to discussions beginning here on preventing exceptions to BLP in talk space. --Ronz (talk) 22:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The addition of the exception was mirrored with a talk page comment with no responses: here --Ronz (talk) 01:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

As someone with no involvement on the other arguments it all (as far as I remember), your behavior on this board itself is disruptive. Users have presented a number of clear, specific complaints about your behavior. Your response to every one of those complaints has been (paraphrasing) "I don't see any legitimate complaints". That's not a response--it's a refusal to listen to the complaints. I'm not saying certainly I support a block since I haven't looked at the details, but if this is the same way you were behaving in other places, it's no wonder to me that others are questioning your ability to work collaboratively. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Pattern of behavior

This is not an isolated case. I had a content dispute with Ronz not even a month past and the same pattern of behavior showed up. A search of ANI archives will show lots more. WP:AGF I think is being abused and used as a shield for his behavior. I also agree with the observation of gaming the system. The way he posts on talk pages, the way he refactors comments, and the way he edit wars are technically not in outright breach of guidelines, or if breached, there is some token understandable reason. But taken all together and with its regularity I think Ronz's behavior is unsupportable and is causing a poisonous atmosphere. Lambanog (talk) 04:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you referring to this ANI posting you made on October 6th? "Ronz's editing behaviour" --Mathsci (talk) 04:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Mathsci if you follow the trail of breadcrumbs you'll also find at least 3 other AN/I reports ([58], [59], [60]) and 4 WQA reports ([61], [62], [63], [64]). I'm sure these were the instances Lambanog was referring to. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 12:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes that is the ANI dispute I brought up. But this issue should probably be looked at thoroughly. There are many other instances in the ANI archives. I see a pattern. Lambanog (talk) 12:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Motion to block Ronz for 24h

• Support Basket of Puppies 00:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Will you be providing rationale at some point? --Ronz (talk) 00:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

This. Basket of Puppies 00:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy to do so. Each of them? --Ronz (talk) 00:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll tackle one while I await your response. --Ronz (talk) 01:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support It is very irritating to other editors to continually object to their edits without providing reasons and it is an abuse to use Wikipedia as a battleground. TFD (talk) 01:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Where/when did I not provide reasons? I've been accused of such a thing, but I don't see any good faith accusations, so haven't bothered to respond. --Ronz (talk) 01:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• support, An RFC/u might be in order as well The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Will you be providing rationale at some point? --Ronz (talk) 01:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ronz, you really ought to stop badgering people. I am now thinking a block of 48h is more appropriate. Basket of Puppies 01:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm working to resolve disputes in good faith. Please do not work to prevent me from doing so. --Ronz (talk) 01:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ronz I havent even looked at BLPN issue, I think its warranted with just the behavior I have seen here at ANI The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Specifics, please. What have I done here that concerns you? --Ronz (talk) 03:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support - obviously. I'd also like to recommend that that Ronz be topic-banned from any article or discussion relating to Stephen Barrett or QuackWatch for an indeterminate period. Ronz seems to have a particular problem with objectivity when it comes to Barrett, as various editors have commented on, and when Griswaldo asked him whether he has some COI with respect to Barrett of QuackWtach [65] he refused to answer [66]. Whether or not he has a COI, his obvious investment in the issue does seem to get in the way of consensus discussion. --Ludwigs2 01:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Once again, Ludwigs2 demonstrates and inability to understand or follow WP:AGF. Additionally, WP:COI and WP:HARRASS. --Ronz (talk) 02:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• SUPPORT - I support a minimum 4 day block, and an indefinite block on any pages related to Stephen Barrett and BLP. He has demonstrated a disregard for WP:NOTHERE. Indefinite blocks on BLP should last until he demonstrates WP:AGF toward editors and policy. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 02:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Please indicate where I'm not following WP:AGF. I'm happy to provide more evidence per WP:AOBF regarding Ludwigs2. --Ronz (talk) 02:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I would also support an RfC/U. Lambanog (talk) 04:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose ANI is not for any editor or group thereof to penalize an editor where the case was not made that anything specific elil acts occurred. This looks more like a set of opinions, at best, for an RFC/U, and not really strong enough to carry one out. Collect (talk) 10:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Note I've added a block template for a 48h block for this user on his talk page. Will an admin please technically implement this block. Thank you. Basket of Puppies 02:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, "I'm working to resolve disputes in good faith. Please do not work to prevent me from doing so." --Ronz (talk) 02:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Who's prevented you? You've had a Talk page, two Noticeboards, this space and 12 days to resolve issues. We're done. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 02:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ronz we're here because people have exhausted their patience for your antics. You keep on saying that you are working to resolve disputes in good faith but the reason why people have no more patience for you is that you are in fact simply making unfounded claims and posting links to policy pages that supposedly back your position without ever really answering questions or providing evidence of any kind. Good luck with that. I support a block if it will help but a topic ban from anything related to Stephen Barrett or Quackwatch would be much more effective.Griswaldo (talk) 02:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry for your obvious frustration.

I'm working to resolve disputes here, at BLPN, at FTN, and elsewhere.

"you are in fact simply making unfounded claims" No, I'm not. If you think there are any good faith accusations against me not already addressed, please indicate one. --Ronz (talk) 02:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Hilariously, Ronz added a warning to my talk page. Basket of Puppies 02:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Not commenting on Ronz behavior here, but yes, adding a block template to their page was out of line. If an admin actually blocks them, they'll add the template. Please don't. Dayewalker (talk) 02:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You're probably right, tho the overwhelming consensus to block Ronz is clear. I'll admit I added the blocknotice in haste, tho, but in good faith. Basket of Puppies 02:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Daywalker is not "probably right", they simply are right. Please make an effort to understand when and how templates are used before using them.Griswaldo (talk) 02:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Basket - I opened this ANI, and even I think you're pushing this a little hard. would you mind bringing it down a few notches? --Ludwigs2 02:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Not a problem. I'm off to move a table. Basket of Puppies 03:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I've requested assistance from an admin. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 03:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Reading this whole thing gives me a headache. I see a group of editors who seem to be ganging up on one editor to get a block. Accusations are being made quickly and no one seems to be allowing time for any answers. It looks like everyone has already made up their minds before anything is even said so heck, let's just block Ronz and get it over with. No, that's not how we are supposed to do things here at Wikipedia. Trying to follow the different discussions here are almost impossible. How about everyone just calm down a bit and if this needs to continue than please lay out your questions clearly then allow time for them to be answered. Thanks, --CrohnieGal^Talk 12:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Questions have been laid out clearly. Ronz doesn't answer them. It is an established pattern of behavior, in fact the very pattern of behavior that brought us all here in the first place. I suggest you read Hans Adler's post below because it is quite enlightening. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 12:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• CG, I'm sure it might look that if you just wondered in here. We've been at this for at least 13 days now, and Ronz's pattern of behavior has shown itself the entire time. His prior involvements show it, and editors from the past seem to comfirm it. Ganging up, that's what threads in ANI usually look like when someone is being reported; are you surprised? Cool off? Thanks for coming here to tell us that, who knows what might have happened. :rollseyes: The case is clear, and the choice should be clear. An admin needs to act now. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 12:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
• Crohnie, I notice that you also supported Ronz in the separate ANI discussion regarding Ronz's behavior I started earlier this month. May I inquire upon what your good opinion of him is based? Did he help you with something here on Wikipedia? Do you know him in real life? Do you have similar experiences? Is this support you give based solely on a reading of the conflict? If the latter, what do you make of Ronz's behavior? Do you think it is commendable? Do you think he is behaving properly? For example do you see nothing provocative with his habit of posting dry messages to the user talk pages of people he is in disputes with that do not actually offer compromises? Is that something you would do too? Would you agree with the proposition that the other editors here, not only Ronz, should be accorded an assumption of good faith as well? If you have a hard time understanding what is going on, why are you defaulting to support for Ronz, instead of providing a neutral comment? Lambanog (talk) 15:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• SUPPORT Ronz has accused The Founders Intent of being drunk ([67]), accused Griswaldo on more than one occasion of not asking questions in good faith(Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Noticeboards.2C_source_criticism_and_claims_of_BLP_issues), repeatedly used claims of off topic as well as not follow WP:CON and WP:TALK to avoid points raised by other editors, has engaged in apparent Wikipedia:WikiBullying (see Ludwigs2, Hans Adler, The Founders Intent, Griswaldo and BruceGrubb), has tried to use Stephen Barrett's unreferenced (and per Talk:Weston_Price#Weston_Price_and_Stephen_Barrett_in_their_own_words easily disproved) claims about Price in a biography about the Price himself not whatever organizations happen to bare his name, and disrupting the talk page with what many of the editors both there and on Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Noticeboards.2C_source_criticism_and_claims_of_BLP_issues see as a misunderstanding of WP:BLP. This is worth far more than just a 24h block in my view.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose per Seb az86556's comments below. A 24 hour block seems unlikely to have any non-punitive purpose, and that's not what blocks are for on Wikipedia. We should be thinking longer term or not at all. Kansan (talk) 15:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose on the basis of an idiotic imposition of punishment. Help him become a better editor by offering him advice on how to resolve disputes. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree that it should not be punitive. I've suggested other options below that are not punitive. I think your suggestion to have people help Ronz become a better editor is fantastic, but I don't see any volunteers. Please note that mentorship is one of the options below. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
    • I've gotten Ronz in touch with some people who may help through some off-wiki e-mails. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Well cheers for doing that and I hope it does him some good.Griswaldo (talk) 14:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
      • So SA, since you've become Ronz's mentor, I assume you'll be following up to see that improvement actually take hold and grow. Good luck. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 14:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I did not say I am Ronz's mentor and am unsure why you think my post above indicates that. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Err... what exactly would a block do?

No, I'm not playing naive, I mean it; there are only two possibilities: either this is meant to be some sort of punishment with a humiliating for-the-record note in someone's blocklog, which is not what blocks are for; or there really is some behavior that hails from conviction in which case the issue is only postponed for 24 hours. If people really think that this behavior hails from conviction and thus won't cease after 24 hours, then please open an ArbCom case or whatever and try to get the user banned (not suggesting anyone should get banned). Head-on-a-stick isn't the answer. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 15:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Head on a stick might be warranted when the block suggestion was indefinite or much longer. 24h, however, seems to me to be a short block. Ronz behavior and actions during this ANI thread have demonstrated his continued disruption and lack of desire to work collaboratively and adhere to policy. (I admit my own actions last night were less than stellar, for the record.) Blocking Ronz is not meant to humiliate or punish, but rather to prevent the continued disruption that is happening and ongoing. Basket of Puppies 17:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, FYI, indefinite blocks are far less punitive than time-expiring blocks because they require blocking administrator to stay in contact with the blocked account and work out an understanding for conditions for returning to normal editing. With a time-expiring blocks, administrators often vanish for most of the duration of the block much to the chagrin of the editor who posts unblock notices and forces other administrators to try to figure out what a decent rationale for unblocking would look like. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Earlier this month, I started an ANI discussion on the subject of Ronz's editing behavior. Nothing was done. Perhaps nothing could be done at that stage, but what surprised me was how the couple of editors that did speak up pretty much supported and condoned Ronz. 3 weeks later it would seem he was only emboldened by the previous result and has poisoned the atmosphere for at least 3 other editors. I would venture the opinion that the bad experiences of these latest editors were unnecessary and avoidable if more decisive action had been taken earlier. If admin actions are only preventative then I ask what would have been the proper course to prevent this re-occurrence? If it was possible to go back in time three weeks to the earlier ANI discussion knowing that if nothing was done 3 more editors would be offended by this editor what remedy should have been suggested back then? Lambanog (talk) 01:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Block notice posted by non-administrator

This was a mistake and Basket of Puppies has apologized
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
[68] Why did Basket of Puppies add a block notice to the user talk page of Ronz? Basket of Puppies is not an administrator and an administrator has yet to comment in the section above. A non-administrator simply cannot post a block notice on another user's talk page in this way. That seems like disruptive and provocative behaviour. Mathsci (talk) 02:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC) I added it because of the overwhelming consensus to block Ronz. I noted this above and asked for an admin to review and implement the block. Basket of Puppies 02:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC) (ec)I was quite confused by that myself. Basket of Puppies appears to be confused about how it all works. Maybe someone ought to explain it and point out the protocol. Unless there is some background I don't know I don't see why WP:AGF wouldn't apply to this situation, though I admit its quite bizarre. If Basket of Puppies should have known better then the situation is quite different of course.Griswaldo (talk) 02:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC) agreed this conduct is highly counterproductive and disruptive. I would like to hear his explanation for this action The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC) I think BoP just screwed up. I doubt it was intentional, but you should let an Admin handle those types of notifications. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE GOOD WORKS 03:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC) How can any "overwhelming consensus" be determined in just over two hours after posting a motion? Contributors to wikipedia, for example administrators or arbitrators, are in lots of different time zones, so 24 hours is the normal period to allow, just as a courtesy. Mathsci (talk) 03:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC) I believe that's quite enough. We all see it for what it was, an ignorant mistake. Don't be disruptive yourself to prove a point that's already been made. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE GOOD WORKS 03:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC) Please try to remain civil. I repeat that 24 hours is the normal period of time to allow to see how the community at large feels about a particular motion. Mathsci (talk) 03:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC) (ec)Let's just all calm down here. I don't think anyone disagrees with you, Mathsci. BoP has jumped the gun rather dramatically here and misused a template to boot. I personally think it was an honest mistake, but if you don't please do whatever you feel is appropriate. However, I don't think we ought to dwell on this issue any longer since no one is in disagreement here. The Founders Intent, please tone it down because I'm sure Mathsci is also responding in good faith here.Griswaldo (talk) 03:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC) You're right, I shouldn't have placed the notice. I am sorry and will never do it again. Basket of Puppies 03:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Review

I have reviewed all the background here (which was not fun), and it is clear to me that Ronz has behaved in flagrant disregard for community norms of editing. It's a textbook case of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, taken to an extreme. Because Ronz is a valued editor with a clean block log since 2007, I have left a message on his talk page summarizing my conclusions and asking for an acknowledgement that the community does not accept this behavior and a commitment not to do anything like this again. Because the time of day makes it likely that he is asleep, I would like to leave the issue unresolved until he has a chance to respond. If any other admin feels a need to take action here, however, I have no objection. Looie496 (talk) 04:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I understand or agree with what's going on here. I'll admit that this is pretty much tl;dr. It seems that no one really agrees with Ronz about a BLP violation here, and he needs to accept that. The prolonged back-and-forth doesn't reflect particularly well on either Ronz or the other parties involved. Edits like this suggest to me that The Founders Intent (talk · contribs) should absolutely not be editing any BLPs until s/he reads and demonstrates an understanding of WP:BLP.

  I do think people need to recognize the context here: a small handful of people with grudges against Stephen Barrett have historically used Wikipedia as a platform to defame him. I don't see any reason at all to think that any of the participants in current dispute are so motivated, but that context might explain the apparent oversensitivity to BLP issues evinced by Ronz. I don't see a need to block anyone here; all of the participants seem to be beating a dead horse and fighting for the sake of fighting on some level, so I'd rather just see everyone drop the sticks, take a few days off, and come back with a bit of perspective. MastCell ^Talk 04:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I want to make something else clear here, to MastCell, we were editing the Price article not Barrett. No one can be shown to have a "grudge" against Barrett (and if you didn't mean us then you're just off topic). Please show it if you can, and bring it to the Barrett talk page. That is all. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 11:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ahem. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

This is the extent of your proof of a grudge against Barrett? You err. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 14:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

People can read your comment and come to their own conclusions. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

@Mastcell -- 1) I do think people need to recognize the context here: a small handful of people with grudges against Stephen Barrett have historically used Wikipedia as a platform to defame him. -- That helps to explain why Ronz has such a clean block log despite a history of behavior like this (see Hans response below). 2) ...all of the participants seem to be beating a dead horse and fighting for the sake of fighting on some level, so I'd rather just see everyone drop the sticks, take a few days off, and come back with a bit of perspective. -- I'm going to WP:AGF here and assume that you just haven't looked into the situation enough. Ronz has been stonewalling any resolution to any of the issues being discussed and forcing people to go to numerous noticeboards because of his stubbornness, while refusing to accept the input from those boards. What you are seeing here is a number of editors trying to engage him over and over without any success. Those of us who have been wasting our time with this for days now probably don't appreciate the mis-characterization of this as problem caused by us. I'm not going to defend every action of every editor who has been arguing with Ronz, but in general I would advise an appreciation for what Hans wrote below because it is dead on.Griswaldo (talk) 11:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Excuse me, but I'm not on review here. Please keep your opinions on the subject matter. Not being perfect at every edit does not mean I deserve to be blocked from editing. At least I spend my time here at WP trying to affect good content, and not judging others work. Try walking even a minute in my shoes. Anyway, what Looie496 has stated is to put it mildly, and what Griswaldo said is dead on! Ronz is a smooth operator with years of practice at this combination of wikilawyering and naivete. The way he whips out WP:TALK at the drop of a hat on multiple editors in this incident can make your head spin. I don't consider him to be a valuable editor in his current state of behavior, and there is no need to assume good faith on his part; since he has shown none. I would go so far as to say that term "good faith" has been way overused as a shield from facing the truth by him, especially considering his accusations of bad faith about other editors. No, he needs to go and be taught a lesson that WP is not a courtroom (it's an encyclopedia), and we don't need any "wikilawyers" of this type. The way he has clung to the protecting Barrett, you'd almost think he was Barrett himself. No this is more than just normal and expected protection of WP articles, especially considering his involvement in the last big Barrett blowout. Ronz's threats on talk pages, misapplication of policy, and OCD on Barrett need to be properly addressed by the admins. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 10:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The issue is that Ronz is purposefully ignoring the issues that have been raised. This edit alone shows that he refuses to engage in discussion, not to mention his actions of replying on numerous users' talk pages (including my own). At this point, the issue with Ronz is less anything to do with the Stephen Barrett discussion and more the fact that Ronz seems to be purposefully trying to work around policy and get his own way, saying that any complaints against him are either users assuming bad faith or users violating some policy. The amount of wikilawyering on his part spread across these sub-discussions is extraordinary. I believe that something definitely needs to be done here, if Ronz refuses to acknowledge the faults of his own actions. I am sincerely hoping, however, that he will acknowledge them after he reads Looie's message. If not, then actions definitely need to be taken. Silverseren^C 04:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't mean to be rude, but why not go with the above-stated consensus to block Ronz? Basket of Puppies 04:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll just add that I'm as (If not more) disturbed by the gamesmanship that goes along with the tendentiousness. I mean, when he feels free enough to pull this kind of ad hominem trick right in the middle of an ANI discussion about his behavior... what do you do with that? and that's just the latest - you'll find a string of 15 or 20 such ploys on my talk page. He obviously still believes that if he can turn this around and undermine my credibility he can 'win' (whatever it is he thinks he's trying to win). Granting that he's good at it - his methodology for undermining other editors is smooth, polished, and seemingly well-practiced; good enough even to work against me, which is saying something - but that's not really a good thing. Whatever else happens, I'd prefer not to see him walk away from this discussion in the continued belief that undermining other editors is an acceptable way to achieve editing goals on Wikipedia. I don't know what it will take to convince him otherwise (well, actually... never mind), but I want to make sure that this concern is properly and fully registered. --Ludwigs2 05:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I have had very occasional contact with Ronz, spread over more than two years. My impression is that Ronz is mostly active in two areas:

• spam
• Stephen Barrett.

The first takes by far the greater share of his time and activity, and his very inflexible mode of operation is optimised for it. Sometimes he overreacts, but it's easy to get away with that in that area. For some reason he treats editors with whom he disagrees in the second area in essentially the same way that he treats spammers. Since these good-faith differences of opinion require rational discussion rather than warning templates and threats, this predictably leads to regular conflicts.

I don't recall Ronz ever changing his mind about anything when confronted with evidence, or ever admitting that he may have made a mistake at some point. I don't remember seeing any dispute involving Ronz that wouldn't have entitled his opponent(s) to get their money back because "this is not an argument, it's just contradiction". The good-faith explanation is that Ronz simply doesn't have the cognitive abilities that are required for full participation in the Wikipedia process.

This give some insight in what Ronz is doing most of the time, and how his behaviour in a context of suspected spamming, while far from ideal, is at least somewhat adequate, probably making him a net positive to the project. This dispute from over a year ago demonstrates that Ronz pursuing his Stephen Barrett agenda in exactly the same way as if he was fighting spam is not a new phenomenon at all, and that the only thing that varies between the various conflicts he is getting himself into this way is how the other parties react. His own behaviour is schematic, consisting mostly of templating and adding diffs to template messages. Sometimes he writes a sentence of his own and adds a diff, which is more often than not the diff of the message to which he is responding. This is essentially a refusal to communicate, coupled with a series of unfounded (since the diffs typically point to evidence of disagreement rather than evidence of wrongdoing) attacks.Hans Adler 10:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Update - Ronz has responded to Looie496 on his talk page, but again appears to be avoiding what has been asked of him. He is also threatening to retire.Griswaldo (talk) 19:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Griswaldo, can you check the first diff? It appears to be from an article. As far as planning to retire, that's not much comfort. Basket of Puppies 20:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Fixed.Griswaldo (talk) 20:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
    • A retirement template, he has a template for everything, doesn't he? We've been duped, and made fools of here by the process. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 02:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
      • There is no need to be so dramatic. Let's give Looie a chance to explain himself a little better and let's also give others a chance to respond here. I think we have several viable remedies that are not punitive but might help prevent future disruptions like this, ranging from a clearer admission of problem editing and more specific promises to improve his behavior to a topic ban from Stephen Barrett and Quackwatch. I hope others will comment on these and/or propose other remedies.Griswaldo (talk) 03:18, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
        • I don't consider doing nothing a viable option. Looie made his decision and stated clearly why, I just happen not to agree with it. I don't think I've kept anyone else from making their point, nor have I kept Ronz from changing his behavior or explaining himself. I think he was give ample (> 13 days) to provide some insight into his actions here. I don't believe I obstruct him in anyway at all. I believe we all offered some rememdies, which were rejected. This basically started about 4 Sep 10 when BruceGrubb was trying to add good references to the article, and Ronz began disputing them, and edit warring over them using various policy shopping to defeat their inclusion. That's a long time, and a lot of time and effort to improve an article while someone else is doing nothing more than criticizing content and quoting policy. Am I being dramatic, maybe a bit, but I call it the way I see it. That doesn't detract from the truth of the matter. We need real solutions, and not promises and warm feelings. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 15:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
          • • I think your behavior leaves much to be desired and some modification of your advocacy and stridency might go a long way toward helping to diffuse the situation. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Well said SA. I find the comments above to be personal attacks. Why would it not be satisfying to have an editor who has been here for a long time retire? I think the behaviors of the other editors here need looking at. Ronz said he may retire but that he is thinking hard about how he does things and will change the behavior. What do you want? You don't want him to retire, you don't like what the administrator decided, so what would make you happy? A block, a ban, indefinitely, what? Administrators I suggest that you check the other editors commenting here because something is seriously wrong with the comments that have been made. Sorry but I'm a bit angry reading what has been said above, --CrohnieGal^Talk 20:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

---

Crohnie, I can't speak for other people but I didn't want to see anyone get banned from the project, and I never though that a block would do much good to be honest. What I wanted to see was acknowledgement by Ronz of the specific issues raised here at the very least. None of my suggestions aimed at blocking, banning or otherwise punishing the guy. I think that should be clear. Like I said elsewhere I'm happy to have my own behavior scrutinized. That's part of doing business here. By the way I can't really understand why Ronz is threatening to retire, personally. This issue has been severely over-dramatized on both sides at times during the discussion. I will allow that there could be private information that most of us are am unaware of (making some amount of drama understandable), but if that were the case you can't really blame anyone for not knowing. If that is not the case I think a lot of people could stand to chill out a bit. Like I suggested already below, if consensus is that there is nothing more to be done then I'm happy with that. I hope that, as ScienceApologist mentioned above, Ronz is getting some off-wiki advice regarding this type of editing. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Followup

It is my impression from the response on Ronz's talk page that he is very chastened and fully understands that his behavior in this affair is decisively rejected by the community. Accordingly, I am not prepared to impose a block at this time. I am aware that several of the editors who have been caught up in this feel that nothing less that a long block would be adequate. I completely understand that attitude but can't quite get there myself. It should be clear, though, that any future behavior resembling what we have seen here will draw a rapid and vigorous response. (For the record, although I personally am not going to do a block, if any other admin feels that a stronger response is required, I will not make any objection.) Looie496 (talk) 23:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Looie I don't see that in his response. He has only admitted to being wrong about the talk page deletions based on BLP and not the general pattern of tendentious editing. How does his promise prevent him from freaking out the next time Barrett or Quackwatch are discussed? If we don't set some kind of precedent here we'll have to start from scratch the next time he starts this because we're not left here with any remedies for specific behaviors nor any promises to stop those behaviors. I'd like to see more specific promises from him at the very least or else a topic ban from the problem area. Consider the depth of the problem in that area as expressed by Hans.Griswaldo (talk) 00:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

What about mentorship? I guess I'm just not convinced that Ronz understands exactly what the problem is and how he will need to alter his future behavior when confronted with similar situations. I do not see such an understanding in his response. A mentor might help with this. Any volunteers?Griswaldo (talk) 00:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Dumbfounding!! --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 00:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Looie: While I'm not all that perturbed by this - I didn't actually expect anyone to impose any overly-strong sanctions - I do have to say that I'm not entirely satisfied with this outcome. Sure, Ronz has claimed that there is "great deal he wants to change in his approach to editing" and admitted that he engaged in disruptive/tendentious editing, and I do expect that he will be a bit more cautious in his approach (at least for a while) if only because he will recognize that he's under observation. But I don't really get the sense from the short comment in his talk that he's gotten the bigger picture here. Disruptive editing is only the most superficial aspect of the problem: I don't see anything here that indicates Ronz even recognizes that there are problems with wp:CIV, wp:AGF, or wp:CONSENSUS in his behavior. If he tries the kind of manipulative crap that he's pulled on me here and in my talk page again I'll drag him back here so ANI so fast it will make his head spin, but right now I don't even see any recognition from him that he's guilty of it it, much less that he's sorry for it or interested in changing it.

Frankly, I think you got suckered by the wounded buffalo act (that's an old Hindu story about a clever water buffalo that escapes its traces and runs rampant through the town, smashing everything in its path; when it finally gets its front hoof caught in a snare, it limps and moans and shakes its head mournfully, knowing that good-hearted people won't punish what they see as a poor, dumb, wounded animal). That's fine - I approve of good-hearted people, and would rather we err on that side than the other - but if you want to make this decision then I am going to hold you responsible for ensuring that Ronz actually comes to understand the need for good faith consensus editing. It's not good enough that he continue doing what he does in a lower key; he actually needs to change his editing practices substantively and show more respect for other editors, otherwise (sooner or later) he's just going to come right back to this. Are you willing to take responsibility for seeing to that? --Ludwigs2 03:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Really, you and (particularly) The Founders Intent should be grateful that your conduct in this dispute has largely escaped scrutiny thus far. Quit while you're ahead, instead of keeping after your pound of flesh. MastCell ^Talk 04:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to AGF here and assume that you didn't intend to threaten Ludwigs with that comment, because otherwise it could be construed as "back off or you're next". If anyone has actually stepped over the line their behavior should be looked at (Ronz, Founders Intent, Ludwigs, myself, etc.). I'm happy to have my own behavior scrutinized, but not as a distraction to the current discussion. If you want to start a sub-thread or a new one please do. Regarding the current discussion what do you think of my three suggestions above? 1) A more definitive set of promises by Ronz, 2) mentorship and/or 3) a topic ban from Stephen Barrett/Quackwatch related issues? Thanks for staying focussed here. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 04:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not a threat, because a) I'm not really much for threatening people, and b) I would not feel comfortable blocking Ludwigs2 under pretty much any circumstances, because of our previous interactions elsewhere. It's exactly what it sounds like: an expression of distaste for the fact that people who haven't comported themselves particularly well in this dispute feel entitled to make a lengthening set of demands about its resolution. MastCell ^Talk 04:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Says a johnny-come-lately who hasn't spent the last 13 days dealing with this. Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. Your idea of vindicating Ronz, is to attack his accusers. Of course I've gotten frustrated, and I think WP understands it. Find me the WP:SAINT policy that requires I be as perfect as Jesus. I don't think anything you've said has a leg to stand on. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 13:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. Either way, can you please comment on the topic at hand. Looie has suggested that option 3 might have some merit on his own talk page, but unfortunately not here. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 04:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

MastCell: If you have specific problems with my behavior you are welcome to raise them, here or in my talk - seriously, I'd be curious to see what you think I've actually done wrong. I know most of my strengths and weaknesses as an editor: I know I'm a stubborn, self-righteous hard-ass when I get my goat up, but I also know that I'm utterly reasonable, generally thoughtful, and always open to proper discussion. I don't lie, I don't manipulate, I listen to others carefully, and (in all honesty) I get thoroughly pissed off when others abuse that respect I give them. If you think I shouldn't get pissed off when people lie about me or try to manipulate me... well maybe you're right. But I'm not going to apologize for completely appropriate anger.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the reason I get in these conflicts is that I insist on reason on topics that a lot of editors don't want to be reasonable about. That comes off particularly pushy sometimes - there simply is no way (in this context) to point out to someone that they are not adhering to reason without them taking it badly, and that goes doubly for editors like Ronz who are accustomed to seeing themselves as being on the right side of conflicts. If you want to fault me for poor logic in any particular case, please do so; I'd never do what Ronz did in this case, ignoring and subverting reason in order to maintain some preferred POV. If you want to fault me for the way I approach being reasonable, please do that as well; I'm always interested in new discursive techniques. But I don't think you really want to fault me for using reason, even if I am hard-assed about it. There's little enough of that on wikipedia as it stands. --Ludwigs2 05:39, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Ludwigs2 here especially when a policy is being used to remove other editors comments on the matter. As I said before WP:BLP is not a magical censorship hammer to remove any criticism about a living person. I could have cared less about who Stephen Barrett was or what he did; all I cared about was the accuracy of the statements he made about Weston Price and on every point using reliable sources (I do NOT consider Weston A. Price Foundation as meeting WP:RS at all so using that as a counter is not a good idea) Barrett was as best in error or out of date. Continual harping on Barrett being relevant due to status as a debunker resulted in further research raising serious questions about Barrett meeting WP:RS requirements ([[69]]). I full stand by my original statement that if those sources I referenced are being total factual then there are some serious issues about using Stephen Barrett as a RS on anything but the article on him. Furthermore the linked Weston A. Price Foundation article is horrid in its statements about Barrett with such unsourced statements as "self-appointed arbiter of correctness" and of putting "his own politically correct spin on Price's findings". We can link to an article that has this unsourced nonsense and can't use an article refers to an actual course case?!? Is this reasonable? Is this even sane?!?--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Three other options

As I've mentioned above I do not think the current response from Ronz is very reassuring in regards to preventing future disruption. I have proposed three other options above, and on Looie's talk page. They are not mutually exclusive.

1. A much clearer admission from Ronz that covers the tendentious talk page editing in entirety and a specific promise not to repeat this behavior in the future.
2. Mentorship to provide Ronz with a resource to help him self-regulate at times when he would otherwise fall into the disruptive pattern of editing.
3. A topic ban from any issue related to Stephen Barrett and Quackwatch.

All of these options are meant to be preventative and not punitive. I personally favor #3 given the apparent history Ronz has with Stephen Barrett related discussions as well as the benefit he seems to be to the project in other areas, but I'm amenable to any of these options. Thoughts?Griswaldo (talk) 05:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support, with a hesitancy on #2. I'm not sure if mentorship would be very worthwhile, but i'm willing (and hoping) to be proven wrong. Silverseren^C 06:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

You know, I read this and see that you were all given a response from the administrator about what Ronz said yet you are all still screaming for your pound of flesh. What does that say? I'm out of here on this one, good luck to all of you, --CrohnieGal^Talk 10:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Crohnie, how on earth is this "screaming for a pound of flesh"? People are not satisfied with the remedy because they do not think it will prevent future disruption. When that is the case they should discuss other remedies. No one is screaming for a pound of anyone's flesh, and we're not arguing against consensus here, just the solution of one administrator. Indeed the consensus seemed to be to do something more substantive. Do you think, of he got a mentor, that someone would receive their "pound of flesh"? Can we stop with the over-dramatic commentary now please. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 11:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• If no administrators are interested in making further comments, it might be time for this thread to be moved to a subpage or possibly even archived. Mathsci (talk) 13:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Hold on there. For your information, Looie was not the first administrator to comment here. User:Elen of the Roads supported a 24 hour block proposed by Basket of Puppies well before Looie involved himself here. I don't see a retraction from her anywhere do you? The overall consensus has been that a remedy of some kind was needed here, and Looie agreed with that. He seems to believe that an adequate remedy has been found but some of us are confused by his rationale. Also Looie has given some degree of support for option 3 on his talk page. I've asked him to respond regarding these issues here. Can we please hold our horses on this? I suggest actually taking a stand on the options presented instead of asking for the discussion to be hidden.Griswaldo (talk) 13:22, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

    (This is only meant as a clarification!) Elen of the roads was not an admin when she supported the block. I assume that she still does (unless the instant a person becomes an admin they change!) but Mathsci may not know that she has since become an admin. --RegentsPark (talk) 13:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that RegentsPark. I did not realize this myself and it certainly explains the confusion. Sorry MathSci.Griswaldo (talk) 14:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

What was initially a discussion of a specific incident has morphed into a discussion of long term issues, which ANI is not best placed to handle. User:Ronz has declared an intention to retire. Such options have been abused in the past to shutdown community debate, but in view of the above discussion, it may be best to accept it at face value and to bear in mind the option of an WP:RFC/U should he change his mind or later return, if concerns continue. Rd232 ^talk 13:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment After reading the discussion and Ronz's statement on his/her talk page, I think Looie has expressed it well. The editor recognizes that their actions have been viewed unfavorably by the community and that should perhaps end the matter, for now. As Rd232 says, if the concerns continue then this will either show up here again or at an RFC/U. --RegentsPark (talk) 14:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
  • If this is where the consensus is I'm happy to abide by it. In parting this discussion I would like to point out a couple of things however. Ronz was very recently at AN/I, and I responded to Mathsci above with a list of at least 3 other AN/I reports ([70], [71], [72]) and 4 WQA reports ([73], [74], [75], [76]) that were about Ronz. Other editors have commented that this is not only a pattern of behavior but that lackluster responses in previous discussions may have emboldened him to behave like this in this instance, if not others. I hope that this discussion has been thorough enough to establish the foundation for a much less patient response next time the situation arises, if it arises. Besides this, on a personal note, I will admit that it has been difficult for me to let this go so easily because it's just very hard to do so when someone has wasted this much of your time behaving disruptively. I have been trying hard not to make this as personal as some other frustrated parties seem to be, but I could do better in this regard as well. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
    • I think waiting what happens now is the best possible outcome of this thread. Further discussion may not be necessary. If it does become necessary later on, another thread can be started easily. Hans Adler 17:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Ludwigs2 came to my talk page. I responded as best I could with my limited time right now. I am really short of time due to RL but I want to bring my comments to everyone attentions. I plan on researching even further the article. I think the other editors here should be looked at for their behavior which is common to do at AN/i. Thanks for your time, --CrohnieGal^Talk 20:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Crohnie, I would like to request once again if I may, what is the basis of your good opinion of Ronz? Lambanog (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Lambanog I'm not sure this is a proper question to ask. You seem to be asking why she might think Ronz is a swell guy. She doesn't have to answer that nor does the answer pertain to the discussion. Can you let this go please.Griswaldo (talk) 04:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Cronhie of course doesn't have to answer the question. But I would make the observation that most of the comments in defense of Ronz are negative ones that tend to level accusation at the other editors; the positive defenses on Ronz's behalf would seem to be confined to Hans Adler's comment that seems to indicate Ronz has always been like this but Hans thinks he's a net positive for the project regardless and MastCell's comment in mitigation that the issue that started the latest dispute is somewhat controversial. Since Cronhie has expressed the strongest sentiments in Ronz's defense I was wondering if she had some experience with the editor that would shed a more positive light on him and that has inspired her loyalty. If so, sharing such positive experiences in favor of Ronz's character would be more helpful than comments with negative implications about the other editors. But if it is improper to ask, I will desist. Lambanog (talk) 11:52, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Lambanog, I am not sure whether Ronz is a net positive for the project or not, but I am quite sure that this discussion is no longer useful at this point. It can be resumed if and when Ronz falls back into his problematic behaviour.

One thing you don't seem to have noticed is that the fact that Ronz's behaviour is problematic does not imply that you were right or blameless in your own conflict with Ronz. This entire discussion is not about you at all. Hans Adler 15:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually Hans, if Ronz's behavior is problematic, the less than perfect reaction of other editors to it should be understandable. Trying to be even-handed in the assignment of blame is commendable in its spirit of fairness but, unless you see Ronz being baited into actions he would otherwise not have made, it is a misplaced attempt at balance that serves no constructive purpose; going out of the way to find fault in the name of balance only serves to rub salt to injury. Having experienced what the other editors here bringing this complaint have, I see no reason not to have given them support in their time of distress especially considering the similarity of our complaints against Ronz. This is not a content dispute; it is a dispute regarding Ronz's behavior. In deference to your statement that you believe constructive discussion here is at an end, if you have any further comments to address to me, you can direct them to my talk page and I will be pleased to answer you there. Lambanog (talk) 16:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

well, I'm not entirely satisfied with this as a result. I'd be happier if Ronz were to admit to/apologize for the baiting and user page harassment that he's clearly guilty of - that would allow me to believe that he really is interested in trying a new approach, and not just hiding under a rock until the storm blows over. I don't want Ronz to leave, I want him to play nice, and some acknowledgment from him that he's aware that he wasn't playing nice would make me happy. will that be forthcoming? --Ludwigs2 15:38, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The future will tell. When long-term problematic behaviour of an established editor with friends is scrutinised at ANI for the first time, we rarely get anything but a vague acknowledgement that the editor will be more careful in the future. Then after a few days, weeks or sometimes months there is usually another ANI report, then another and another, and then there is enough momentum for sanctions or, ideally, behavioural consequences. It's all part of the normal ANI process. For someone who has been continuously dragged to ANI with often frivolous complaints this is probably less apparent, but this thread dying down at this point is just part of the normal process. Hans Adler 06:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

yeah, probably for the best anyways. I'll AGF that he is seriously taking the problem to heart, and will come back at it with a fresh attitude as soon as he's ready. And then let there be much rejoicing, and singing of joyous songs... --Ludwigs2 06:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• No! I said when I first came here that this thread gave me a headache and that something was wrong. Well, now that Ronz is inactive but this thread has a life of its own I'd like to ask the editors some things. From what I have accidentally found and what has been told to me, I would like the editors here to give links to where all of these complaints have been. I mean all the different boards including the arbitrators board that I found this morning by accident. Editors here are yelling for more to be done, demanding apologies and so on. Well I see and take notice that Mastcell said the editors here were lucky that no one was looking at their behaviors. Well now I think it's time to do exactly that and I have hopes to get some help with this. Mathsci came to my talk page to share what he has learned so far in his looking at things. Anyone want to comment? I came across this accidentally this morning. Please take notice that arbitrators commented. This was initiated 8 days ago. Comments? Ludwigs2 and The Founders of Intent came to me and started discussions with me. Difs were given, but I didn't know until now that the difs are cherry picked to show how bad Ronz was supposed to be. What was given to me was unfair dribble. I was asked to give opinions on something when they knew there was more going on and that they were given answers, they just didn't like what answers they got so they moved on to an overlapping board comment or complaint. What on earth is going on here? I mean it too. I have been accused of being to harsh on the other editors here who brought this complaint but what I found today answers why I felt something was off. Now please, would someone explain this to me because right now I am the one who is angry for being duped. --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Crohnie - here's a pseudo-timeline of my various involvements:

1. I saw the issue of wp:FT/N and entered the discussion. I was aware at that point that there was a parallel discussion at wp:RS/N (though I do not think I knew until now that there were others), and at one point I pointed out that the discussions ought to be merged, but I didn't give it a whole lot of thought.
2. I participated in the wp:BLP/N thread, because the BLP issue had become a major sticking point in the conversation at wp:FT/N
3. I opened the ArbCom clarification because I thought (and still think) that this problem is endemic to fringe issues rather than article-specific to Price, but that went nowhere, and that's ok.
4. I dropped a note in your talk because you seemed upset by all this and I wanted to check in. I even tried to keep it from expanding to a more general discussion (just because I hadn't really wanted to drag you into the whole mess), but that didn't work either.

I do think BruceGrubb (or someone) has done a bit of noticeboard spamming; it would have been a lot better to to keep it all contained in one or two threads. I can't speak to anything outside those four bullets above. Anything else I can clarify? --Ludwigs2 14:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Your post is written in a tone as if you found a smoking gun or something, but I simply can't see what you mean. Could you explain please? One key thing you seem to be missing is that Ronz has a unique, robot-like communication style which tends to make the editors he is in conflict with absolutely furious. If you don't understand what I mean, I invite you to an experiment: If you promise not to blame me for any adverse effects to your health, I will try to communicate with you Ronz-style. From my own observations, and many others appear to have had a similar experience, you are probably going to feel like the victim of an insane, cold aggression that puts you under extreme stress, with nothing in particular that you could point your finger to.

That's not what this report was about originally. It was about a bizarre line of argument which Ronz pursued in his unique style: That discussing the reliability of a source that has been self-published by a living author somehow runs afoul of BLP. You may have noted that Ronz has not got much support for that idea, including in the clarification request.

I have never had any interactions with BruceGrubb before, and I have no idea what he is up to at Weston Price since I don't have the time to follow the conflict at that very insignificant article. But I became involved in the noticeboard discussions that MathSci pointed to, and in these he was simply right. The main problem there was that Ronz did not want to accept the consensus and was engaging in typical WP:IDHT behaviour. A secondary problem was an unnecessary dispute between, mainly, Ludwigs2 and me on one side and ScienceApologist on the other side, which was mainly about how to express the fact that Stephen Barrett's self-published material can be used with attribution for putting fringe aspects of modern Price reception into context, but not for anything else. (It appears the disagreement was mostly political, with ScienceApologist being keen to avoid any finding that WP:SPS applies to Quackwatch and that Stephen Barrett is not an authority on medical history.) Hans Adler 14:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

DYK, plagiarism, the main page, reliable sources …

Accused of plagarism

I have been accused of plagarism at Malta Test Station an article that I recieved a DYK for and User:SandyGeorgia then put the tag on. This is a user who has had many problems with me and has bothered me lately over minor things and if I complain about anyone brings up their problems about me. Can someone without a problem with me please check that article. The template SandyGeorgia put on their states that the contributor of the article is to be notified. I did not recieve a notification regarding this. I find it highly suspicious as no article I have ever written has been characterized as plagarism and I'm a grad student and have never been accused of that in my professional or collegiate career. I have MANY DYK's and you'd think if this was a problem someone there would have spotted it. I would like, if Sandy's actions are found to be false, for Sandy to be put on an interaction ban with me before more occurances happen.Camelbinky (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

DYKs are a game for kids, and i reviewed a few a couple of weeks ago on my own and found them all to be plagiarized (all by the same editor, not you). It's generally not a very competent bunch over there. So having been a DYK is no defense against plagiarism. Not having plagiarized is. I'll take a look for you. Bali ultimate (talk) 19:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Just looked at a couple of sentences and they were straight cut and pastes from the citations, without quotes. If you handed in an academic paper to me like this, grad student or not, I'd fail you. Can't speak to your interpersonal dispute though.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The is no "from" field on that template, which is a bit strange. Theresa Knott | Sort that Knee! 19:12, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the lack of a "from" is because the issue is with multiple sources. Silverseren^C 19:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Camelbinky - did you copy and paste any of the text from anywhere else? It doesn't matter if you did, just be honest about it and we can get the article sorted. Theresa Knott | Sort that Knee! 19:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Just from a review of the first source and what it's being used to reference, i'm seeing problems. The line "The Malta Test Station was established in 1945 on 165.36 acres (66.92 ha) of land leased from Thomas F. Luther" in the article is far, far too close to the line in the reference, "The Malta Test Station was established in 1945 on a 165.36 acre tract by lease from Thomas F. Luther."

The reference is also used for the sentence "The United States government also acquired a perpetual easement over a circular area containing 1,800 acres (730 ha) surrounding the site" in the article. The line in the reference is "the United States also acquired a perpetual easement over a circular area containing 1800 acres."

The main issues is an utter lack of quotations, which should clearly have been used for these lines at separate points. This is, indeed, an example of plagiarism, at least for the first reference. (For checking, you can find the first reference here.) Silverseren^C 19:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• (edit conflict × 3) I was about to post a message here indicating that I informed the user, but ended up incorrectly reverting Theresa, who I thought had removed the thread by accident. My mistake. Anyway, I informed the user. Looks like I only beat Camel by a minute though, though my note was somewhat more neutral. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 19:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

It looks like SandyGeorgia did the right thing. This is not a big issue, I'm happy to help Camelbinky rewrite the article if he so wishes. Theresa Knott | Sort that Knee! 19:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I did in fact copy-paste from the sources, as my intention was to make sure I got the information correct. My intention was to put things in my own words and I guess I did not as much as I thought I did. I apologize and would like the ability to fix the article instead of it being blanked by the template, a template to which I was never notified about. And I am now afraid of how many other articles I have written that now do not exist and may be deleted because I was not notified now that someone who has shown a problem with me has taken it upon themselves to "watch" me. Someone who prior to this has never shown an interest in the corner of Wikipedia to which I edit (and among the many DYK's I received and the fact that I post my new articles at appropriate wikiproject pages and on my own user page it is not like I create/rewrite articles under the radar). My main concern is wiki-stalking and someone thinking that I need to be "watched" and will attempt to blank out anything I do due to a grudge. I greatly apologize for my sloppy editing on this article. I have received GA's and praises on several articles and am looked to for help on sourcing and researching from the rest of the NYCD wikiproject that I co-founded, so I think I should have been given a heads up by Sandy and given an attempt to fix the article. I appreciate and accept Theresa's help.Camelbinky (talk) 19:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Why on earth would you be worried that people are watching your contributions? That smacks of paranoia. Just don't copy and paste other people's work and you'll be fine. While you're here, how about apologising to Sandy? Parrot of Doom 19:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Sandy templated his work for possible deletion and failed to tell him. I think that is why he is so upset. Theresa Knott | Sort that Knee! 19:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course you can fix the article! It will not be deleted don't worry. Theresa Knott | Sort that Knee! 19:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I looked at footnote number 9 matching against page 3 of this source and would strongly suggest this user familiarize themself with Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. In fact it is a big deal. If this sort of thing happens in a high school or college classroom in the US, a student will receive a failing grade. We shouldn't be seeing substandard work such as this on the main page. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

What I meant was by not a big deal was not that it isn't important - it is, but that it is very easy to fix. Theresa Knott | Sort that Knee! 19:35, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I suspect one will find this problem with a great many of this users contributions. Just a hunch.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

All the articles I have created or have been the author of more than about 80% of the content are listed on my user page. Feel free to look at each one and tell me what problems they have and I will fix them. That is if I stay around because that lack of AGF right there is why I want to quit right now. Over 3 years and I have never been accused of plagarism and now all of a sudden this starts. Wow, dont mess with certain editors or they go after you.Camelbinky (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

"Officer, how dare you not assume good faith that I was stealing this candy bar! Sure, the other candy bar in my pocket was stolen, but you are entirely out of line to assume I might have stolen this second one!" "Over 3 years and I have never been accused of theft and now all of a sudden, now that I've been caught, people are assuming I did it before!" "Don't mess with certain editors, or they might see that you ... actually, no, I don't have a witty comparison for that one, that last sentence of yours was just plain bullshit. --Golbez (talk) 20:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't get all "woah is me" that's not helpful at all. Instead spend some time checking your own articles to make sure that they are spic and span. Then nobody will be able to accuse you of anything. Theresa Knott | Sort that Knee! 19:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something, an editor correctly identified a copyright issue, and took appropriate action. She should have notified you, but the fact that she didn't rather suggests she's not trying to use it as a stick to beat you with. Now, because of your ANI complaint, others are looking at your contributions, with a certain WP:PLAXICO effect. Set your house in order, and take it on the chin when your errors are exposed. We all make mistakes; it's never pleasant when we realise it, but denial doesn't help anyone. Rd232 ^talk 20:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Wait a sec, Camelbinky, (or "woah", as applied to horses - TK please note); you asked this board to sort out something between you and SandyGeorgia because she templated an article you wrote and, subsequently, you were found to have plagarised the content... I haven't seen much of an indication of you acknowledging SG was correct in this matter, much less apologising. If people are not extending AGF when they should, it isn't as if it is a one way street. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• And now Hamilton Hill, Schenectady, New York has been slapped with a template. I'm kind of annoyed at that one, since I helped you with it. :/ Silverseren^C 19:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

  The article is blatantly plagiarized, and we need time to figure out if any of it is original. Some of them are directly copied from their sources: "The largest decrease was by seniors at 42.2%" directly from here; some of them are closely paraphrased: "The residents of that neighborhood objected to a Black church" and "But some residents in the tony Stockade neighborhood objected to the thought of a black church". --Andy Walsh (talk) 19:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

As a general comment, there seems to be an important misunderstanding here. It is never acceptable to copy&paste and then reword, regardless of how extensive the rewording. A passage created in this way will always be a copyvio. If the rewording is extensive enough, it might be hard to prove that its a copyvio, but according to the rules, it's still a copyvio. The only acceptable method of writing is to put the content in your own words. That can be very difficult when you're working from a single source; it's much easier when you are integrating information from multiple sources. Looie496 (talk) 19:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

General comment about plagiarism: I agree that copy/pasting is not a good idea, but when writing a sentence dealing with specifics, especially measurements, there are only so many ways to write "The U.S. government owns a 4 sq mile stretch of land leased from John Doe" or whatever the case may be. Plagiarism is a heavy charge, and if we are supposed to AGF on WP, I think we should look more for a pattern of behavior or "chunks" of article larger than one sentence before implying someone is plagiarizing. The Eskimo (talk) 21:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

AGF has some caveats when it comes to copyright/plagiarism: see WP:AGFC. VernoWhitney (talk) 22:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

block policy is needed for any plagiarism

First of all, the correct spelling is "plagiarism" not "plagarism" as shown at the top of the section. Second, I am a former teacher and condemn all plagiarism. At school, any plagiarism resulted in a "F". Third, anyone who commits plagiarism should be immediately blocked. When they understand the problem, promise not to do so in the future, and promise to clean up the mess, they should be unblocked. We should not let editors keep on plagiarizing (even they only plagiarize occasionally). After they are unblocked, they should fix all plagiarized material that they did. Upon fixing it, we should then thank them and encourage them to continue to be good. Fiona United (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps so. However, it would have been exceedingly wise for Sandy to make the notifications. The idea of this is not to play gotcha, it is to see that any unsuitable content is repaired. As far as I can see, the bast way of doing that would be to notify the editor who placed the content there, calling on her to make appropriate modifications if necessary. Placing a tag accomplishes little until someone acts on it, after all!--Wehwalt (talk) 20:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Wrong, blanking the text and placing the tag accomplishes the most important step-- it gets the copyvio off of Wiki, regardless of whether the editor fixes it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Good proposal, but it wouldn't be wikipedia anymore without that plagiarism. And think of the "wiki cup."Bali ultimate (talk) 20:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Blocking is not fun and games but plagiarism is serious. It pains me to say that Mariah Carey, an article I made an edit, may have done so..see Wikipedia...Despite the fact that Carey is often credited with co-writing her material, she has also been accused of plagiarism on several occasions. Many of these cases were eventually settled out of court.[189][190][191] Also, I am not saying that Sandy is good or bad, just a comment on how we should treat plagiarism on Wikipedia. Fiona United (talk) 20:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Disagree a block is in order at this stage. BUT:

• Recommend passing this off to someone over at WP:CCI to check a few of CB's prior articles for similar problems
• And stern words to CB so he understands the serious problem in doing this

But it appears the work was done in a good faith with an attempt to not copyvio the sources; so as long as the problem is understood then nothing more seems warranted. --Errant [tmorton166] ^(chat!) 20:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and a few words to appropriate parties that a tag by itself accomplishes nothing might well be in order. All in the name of building an encyclopedia, of course.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, at the very least a talk page note is definitely useful (indeed, possibly even better as it is then available to all editors) --Errant [tmorton166] ^(chat!) 20:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a school project; we don't fail people for content problems.

Plagarism isn't even a problem per se - but it is when it's not citing sources properly or a copyright violation. Those are problems, for us and for those who originally produced the material. For those reasons, information needs to be properly rewritten / paraphrased, or quoted and cited properly as to source.

We do not have a zero-tolerance policy because everyone makes some mistake with this eventually, and we're not an academic environment where failing people for something is appropriate. Yes, we take copyright violation and related problems seriously. Moonriddengirl is very focused on this problem as are many others, and most admins including myself take it very seriously. We will and repeatedly have blocked people who did copyright violations and are either unrepentant or uncooperative about fixing it.

Reform is preferred. Blocking to prevent further harm to the Encyclopedia or to others' intellectual property is a fallback in cases that justify it. It's not zero tolerance now and probably shouldn't be. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Plagarism isn't even a problem per se - but it is when it's not citing sources properly or a copyright violation; I have no idea what that sentence is trying to say, but plagiarism is a problem, and the most important step in rectifying it is blanking the text and placing the tag. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly informative to get the civility police's pov on plagiarism, which appears to be basically it doesn't matter, because we're focused on eliminating naughty words. Malleus Fatuorum 23:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

What we have to remember is that we are very different indeed from a school paper. In a school paper, the teacher or professor wants to see original thought. On Wikipedia, we avoid that and hew close to the sources. And, through inexperience or carelessness, people hew a little too close. It's a mistake, but hardly unforgivable. Not an honor code violation or whatever it is.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

As far as honor code, all editor should be forced to sign a statement, one part should include not plagiarizing. Fiona United (talk) 21:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't work wouldn't be any way practical. Theresa Knott | Sort that Knee! 22:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. If you aren't sure, you can plagiarize in the sandbox. Wikipedia is referred to by millions of people worldwide, more than a small city newspaper website. If Wikipedia is amateurish, we look like fools. If you can't edit without stealing prose, then you should not edit until you learn how. Wikipedia is not a school paper; Wikipedia is more important than a school paper. School papers are read only by the teacher. Wikipedia is read by millions. This is not to say that people should be blocked left and right but if you plagiarize, you must fix your mistake and temporarily stop adding to Wikipedia or you should be blocked. Blocking is not punishment but an attempt to uphold Wikipedia's reputation. Fiona United (talk) 21:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• I think WP:COPYVIO has this covered. If after warnings an account keeps violating copyright then they will be blocked. But if this is as complex as Sandy says the issue is probably very complicated--Cailil ^talk 22:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no excuse to dismiss Plagiarism on AGF grounds under any stretch of the imagination. That said, that does not mean "come down like a ton of bricks" every time it is discovered as there are different situations (i.e. telling a newcomer kindly and politely that we do not allow material that is copypasted from a source that is uncited is obviously preferred over bringing said user to ANI or blocking, especially on a 1st-time occurrence). Also, avoiding plagiarism is not something one learns to avoid not when they enter college, but far before that (for me, middle school, I don't know about others, though). –MuZemike 22:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

A lot of yall just don't get it. The cutty-pasty epidemic is a big problem, spawned in part by other ailments like the "wiki cup" and "dyk" and other bauble collecting exercises that favor measurable "deliverables" ("i created x articles" "I got y DYKs" etc...) over creating coherent articles that are accurate surveys of a relevant topic. A lot of these articles are wrong, wrong in emphasis, wrong in basic facts, and most importantly wrong because there is no true distallation of the consensus view of the topic from the best sources. Why? Because the cutty-pasties don't really understand what they're writing about (how could they? In general, they haven't sat down and read it all before starting. They're just Magpies; a bottle cap here, a shiny piece of plastice there, ctrl v and I'm done). And this entirely leaves aside the fact that cutting and pasting is often from very old PD sources that are no longer accurate (particularly in science-related articles, but not exclusively). The culture of tolerance for this stuff, and the false sense of accomplishment given to poor article writers with DYK baubles, leads to an ever expanding miasma of innacurate articles, beyond the scope of the small handful of engaged editors to fix, if they were to try. Sometimes, more is less.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I support a fairly hard line on plagiarism, but I don't support the "immediate block" suggestion. Anyone who has worked in this area knows that many people think things that aren't so:

• It's OK if you change the words a little (no, it's not)
• It's OK if the source is PD (no, it's not)
• It's OK as long as you use quotes (no, you need a ref)

We need to educate people, but an immediate block isn't the right first step. Better to point out pages such as Close paraphrasing and offer to help.--SPhilbrickT 22:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

" It's OK if the source is PD (no, it's not)" Clarification of this please? If it is PD is it not possible to change it or use it for commercial purposes without attribution? Isn't this the primary difference between PD and CC-by-A? Is CC0 therefore even more flexible than PD? Lambanog (talk) 12:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll answer with some hesitance, as I sense I am among experts, and while I think I know what I'm doing, there's a lot to know. My points is: if material is under copyright, and it gets copied or closely paraphrased in WP, then we have violated the rights of the copyright holder. If we do the same with PD material, there are no rights of a copyright holder violated, but we have violated our own internal rules, which require attribution when it isn't our own words. Just as a student writing a paper would be guilty of plagiarism if they copied PD material without proper attribution. They didn't violate copyright, but they are still guilty of plagiarism.--SPhilbrickT 15:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

• (@ Bali, ec) BINGO-- I didn't have to type all I typed below, you said it better, but you added it while I was typing. Add to that, however, that DYK doesn't have as part of their mission to screen for reliability of sources, so the articles aren't necessarily even meeting WP:V. Better scrutiny at RFA might help solve some of what is feeding this; it is most dismaying to see RFAs passing on editors who don't have the slightest clue on Wiki policies, but are getting through by touting their DYKs or GOCE involvement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Catching up

Sorry, I've been out all day, but there's too much wrong above for me to summarize quickly, so I'll put a placeholder here and begin to work on my response. Maybe if others stay out of my subhead until I'm done, I won't get 85,000 edit conflicts ... may take me a while to finish typing, because there is a much bigger problem than one editor. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Starting at the top here:

• Camelbinky said: "This is a user who has had many problems with me and has bothered me lately over minor things ... " I don't think two notifications asking you to WP:AGF constitutes "many problems"; as much as you may like to think so, this whole issue isn't at all about you, and in fact, you are only a minor player in a much bigger problem on Wiki. I see references to me not notifying you (above); because of another copyvio experience (detailed below), I didn't even read that template (the folks who work at Copyvio might consider ways to reduce it-- TLDR) after I placed it. Had I read the template, however, it's unlikely that I would have wanted to be the one to notify you, considering your AGF issues, and I also don't consider it a problem of notifying you, rather DYK, so I have now done that. And in terms of common sense, since it was on the mainpage, I would have assumed you were watching the article anyway. Now I know to notify; I apologize to Camelbinky for not reading and not notifying.

• Camelbinky said: "...  to blank out a page that is on the main page of Wikipedia looks bad". In fact, quite the opposite-- to run plagiarism on the main page is what "makes Wiki look bad" (and worse-- jeopardizes everything the Project is based on), and it is every editor's responsibility, when finding plagiarism, to blank the content. Again, see the story of another copyvio I dealt with (below).

• I see a reference above to Camelbinky being offended because I put the article up for deletion; when I saw that comment, I said "huh"? That template suffers from TLDR, and I now see the "deletion after a week" blurb at the bottom. Because of my experience on another article, I did not know that it was current practice to delete copyvio articles after a week.

• Next, this is not a Camelbinky problem, and I think calls above for blocking-- in fact, undue focus on Camelbinky-- are misplaced here. Many editors here don't know or understand close paraphrasing and plagiarism (I certainly didn't when I was new here), and I think we should AGF until given a reason not to. What we do need to do is get at the source of the problem that is feeding this. My attention was first drawn to the problems with Copyvio from the issue below.

• There has been a very longstanding copyvio tag at Jockstrap (which is why I didn't know current policy was to delete copyvio articles after a week-- that one was there forever). I came across it as part of the issue of understanding LLC books: see the explanation here of why we MUST blank content on copyvios. LLC Books simply removed the Copyvio tag from that article, and printed the book anyway !!!! This got me more interested in copyvios. Along with that, I recently became more active at RFA and have been very dismayed to discover what is going on at DYK. Next.

• The problem is not Camelbinky or any other editor who doesn't have a firm grasp on plagiarism or close paraphrsing-- since I've been looking into it, the issue is rampant, systemic at DYK, and furthered by the "reward culture" at RFA and places like WIKICUP. Since I've been following RFA, I've seen multiple inexperienced editors (and even experienced ones) launching their RFAs based on their "writing ability" as demonstrated by their number of DYKs. Every DYK I've checked at RFA turns out to not only be plagiarized, but also based on sources that don't even meet reliability! There's a problem at DYK, but it's not their problem-- it's that they are being overwhelmed because of the "reward culture" by editors who maybe shouldn't be trying to write articles anyway, so they copy-paste or too closely paraphrase. More scrutiny is needed at DYK, but more importantly, more scrutiny on DYKs and other "prizes" throughout the Wiki and at RFA is needed. In one recent instance I found at RFA, we ran a DYK that was not only plagiarized, but it was based on a commercial travel site that doesn't meet any measure of reliability. The "reward culture" is jeopardizing the project's goals, and it's not fair to aim a very big issue at one editor only. It is rampant.

It is not my intent to "bash" DYK, but they need help over there, or alternately, we need to shut down the "reward culture" that is feeding so many ill-prepared articles to them. In the meantime, I've added the DYK bot to my userpage so I can routinely check the latest DYKs for plagiarism; perhaps others will help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Done :) I see while I was typing, several other editors said same above (about the reward culture and AGFing on plagiarism). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I do want to point out that the template does say "it may be deleted one week after the time of its listing" (emphasis added). Once an article is tagged for {{copyvio}}, it is listed by the tagger or by bot at the WP:CP board. When copying is foundational and extensive and no rewrite is proposed, that's often what happens. If copyright can be excised and leave a usable article, we sometimes do that instead (especially now that rev deletion makes retaining attribution easier). And there are contributors who rewrite these articles in the temporary space supplied so that we can replace them. It is a good idea to advise the contributors when blanking the articles for several reasons. First, it may help them address the problem, either by correcting the existing article or by helping them learn to avoid it in the future. Moroever, it provides a record of the problem. While I agree with User:Georgewilliamherbert above that our first effort is and always should be reform, we do block repeat offenders to protect the project (and our reusers) from legal jeopardy. That said, I've seen a good many contributors who have had problems with our copyright policy and plagiarism guideline who, once instructed how to handle sources differently, have gone on to be highly productive.

Sometimes people overlook the notification requirement, particularly when they are unfamiliar with the template. At WP:CP, we often relist articles in such situations and provide the notification ourselves. The most important thing is to get the article out of publication during the clean-up/verification process.

Copying, unfortunately, is rampant on Wikipedia. We have dozens of open investigations at WP:CCI, and I would presume that between WP:SCV and WP:CP we deal with dozens of individual articles every day. Who knows how many get past us? :/

In response to comments above, plagiarism is blockable, but so far as I know blocks for plagiarism as compared to blocks for copyright are extremely rare. Since before I arrived, WP:CP has included the text, "Editors engaged in ongoing plagiarism who do not respond to polite requests may be blocked from editing." (This in the section "Plagiarism that does not infringe copyright".) There've been several cases at ANI that have resulted in bans, but, as with copyright problems, these always seem to begin with good faith efforts to advise the contributor of community practices.

At this point, it seems like there is some further review of User:Camelbinky's articles ongoing, and that seems like a good idea since from his talk page it looks as though several other problematic articles have been detected. Our goal here should be to identify problems, get them cleaned up and make sure that Camelbinky is aware of how to move forward. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:06, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

• This is just a thought and might be an instruction creepy suggestion, but could we code the WP:DYK page like we have WP:SPI coded - so that you have to open a draft from the 'project' page and when you do you get a big pink/orange "how to box" above your editing window. I know it's not a real sollution but if people are doing this relatively innocently it might help?--Cailil ^talk 22:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
  • How about waiting for input from regular DYK reviewers before trying to change an area you're not heavily involved in? StrPby (talk) 23:22, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
    • I'd do away with DYK by fiat if I could. But in my experience (admitedly small sample -- about 20 articles) most of what passes through that system is godawful. Why would one expect they're a hive of appreciation of (and ideas for fixing) the problem?Bali ultimate (talk) 23:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Then it's a damn good thing you can't. No one's asking you to like what we do. StrPby (talk) 23:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
        • Ah. You're one of the culprits. A question then: Why do you so often review and promote articles that are plagiarized and innacurate? Maybe an explanation of this problem will help all of us figure out a time-effective way to fix it.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
          • So suddenly I'm a "culprit"? I'd suggest you select your choice of words a bit more accurately. When I review at DYK I do check for close paraphrasing and copyright violations. See User talk:Moonriddengirl/Archive 27#Copyvio second opinion for an example. StrPby (talk) 23:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

You didn't ask if i like what you do. You asked if I like what we do, the we in question being the DYK people. DYK routinely promotes plagiarized and innacurate articles. As a general phenomenon, do you have opinions on why this happens and how to fix it? I'm listening, probably a few other people watching this page are too.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

As I said at WT:DYK, I think a good place to start would be to require more than one reviewer approving each nominated hook before it gets passed to appear on the Main Page. More eyes = better, whilst not making any big drastic change yet. StrPby (talk) 00:15, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

One anonymous person of no proven ability or expertise gets to decide, and with no reputation risk for getting it wrong? Wow. It's worse than even I would have suspected. Two immediate reforms spring to mind. Minimum of three reviewers. And (this is important) some kind of meta-data that includes that they were the reviewers connected to the hook (perhaps on the talk page, "reviewers x, y, and z approved this.")Bali ultimate (talk) 00:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

So we all agree that 1) the article that this got started over was plagiarism; 2) plagiarism is bad; 3) award-collecting behavior contributes to the problem. Is there any need to continue this TL;DR discussion on ANI? No one's getting blocked and ANI is not the place to propose large-scale project changes. Nothing productive is going to come out of arguing here. rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Nothing productive comes of discussion anywhere here on wikipedia; DYK will continue to trundle on until it becomes obvious even to the most deaf and blind of fools that it has a serious problem, maybe not even then. Malleus Fatuorum 01:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Kindly refrain from casting aspersions on all of us DYK regulars; whatever you think of some people, it's a rather blatant personal attack to call us culprits for our participation in the process. Nyttend (talk) 01:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Culprit is just a way of drawing attention to your collective responsibility. I'm trying to draw attention to the general lack of competence among the DYK regulars, as demonstrated by the frequent promotions of articles that plagiarized, innacurate, poorly sourced, etc...Bali ultimate (talk) 11:21, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

DYK is the end point of some of the problems, not the cause of them

While everyone else has been being constructive, I have written some TL;DR material myself, so I thought I'd just post it since now I'm not sure what else to do with it. Sorry if I repeat something already covered.

(1) In my rather short experience, I have now several times seen editors using "but I have X DYKs, so I must be a good editor!" here at AN/I and elsewhere. I have challenged this and then been told by (a very small minority of) other editors involved in DYK, that DYK success is indeed an indication that an article has had a thorough inspection by multiple reviewers. (I paraphrase, but you get the idea.) This is wrong and this idea contributes to the problems with the perception of DYK.

(2) It's wrong because (as others have hinted already), (a) the DYK reviewing process only requires a minimum of one reviewer, (b) the DYK reviewing process only requires the reviewer to check the article citation and source supporting the hook fact, not the others, (c) when I've questioned the quality or sourcing density or appropriateness of a DYK hook or article, I've at least twice been told (paraphrased very closely) "hey this is DYK, not GA", (d) there is not really any provision or willingness for any other than a relatively narrow set of criteria to be used to say "no" to a DYK - I have also been told "if that is an issue then you should AfD it".

(3) Going back to point (1), I don't currently read RFA (or even know if I have the right acronym there) but if DYK-numbers are being used extensively there as well, as others have suggested, then this is pretty sad and indeed indicates a problem at RFA.

(4) "The people at DYK" have not encouraged the Wikicup-DYK relationship as a bauble-multiplying process, at least in the several months I've been involved. The most recent discussions over this began with concerns that the (unintended) effect of Wikicup was recently to flood DYK with "cookie-cutter" articles of dubious value and dubious appropriateness for DYK, and ended with an agreement by those running Wikicup to significantly reduce the prominence of DYK in Wikicup to try to prevent this.

(5) Along the way, we had claims that "DYK would die without Wikicup" - a claim completely rejected by almost everyone involved with DYK - and the assertion that the problem is at DYK's end, not caused by Wikicup. This latter assertion is misunderstanding the issue. The baubles thing hits DYK hardest because it is the easiest way for something to end up on the main page, and that is an issue. DYK participants and organisers seem to have been pretty clear that they do not want the Wikicup promotion of DYK, or at least not at the level it occurred over the last few months. So, although I agree with some of the concerns about bauble-collecting, I think it's unfair to portray any of those involved as some sort of witless bauble-cabal all feeding off each others' dimwit enthusiasm.

(6) Going back to the issue of what standards are expected of a DYK, given that it hits the main page. Yes I think it is reasonable to remind all involved that something being on the main page is a big thing, and if it has plagiarism that is only caught later, or is chock full of grammar or spelling errors, or has some other problem, then that is worrying. There is sometimes an over-focus, within the DYK area, to constantly remind ourselves "the purpose of DYK is to showcase new content" (and therefore it doesn't have to be perfect) or "the purpose of DYK is to encourage editors to create new articles or expand existing stubs" (and therefore the quality of the material being provided to the front page is in some way secondary). There is some truth in these viewpoints, but if taken too far they are missing the point - especially since for some thousands of readers a DYK item might be the first Wikipedia article they ever look at, or even the only one.

(7) However, that caveat "from Wikipedia's newest articles" does sit above the DYK section on the front page every day. In addition, it is also partly what Wikipedia is about. DYK is not just about getting recognition of your article being on the front page, but also putting new articles in a place where new editors may want to pick them up and do something productive with them, maybe improve them significantly. Sometimes that might be because they're interested in the topic or the hook was catchy or even because they think there is a serious problem with the article itself. It's one way of turning readers into editors, and it works. I created my Wikipedia account (and have made hundreds of corrections to DYK candidates and also AfD'd a few) because I was wondering how on earth a POV-pushing series of nominations made it onto the main page. Was it especially damaging that they made it there? No. Was it beneficial to the encyclopedia that far more articles were significantly improved as a result? Yes.

(8) There is also the problem that reviewers at DYK can only do so much. When I review nominations (and the articles) I do so with my understanding at the time of the DYK rules and of Wikipedia's policies. Like other reviewers, I am also limited in the amount of time I can spend on it. If a new(ish) editor does not have great English skills but has produced a reasonable article, and a reviewer then spends some time fixing the spelling and grammar problems, but misses quite a few of them, and it ends up on the main page, is that a huge issue? Maybe, but it's not enough of an issue to say to the original editor "hey, not only is your English not great, but we basically don't have time to deal with it because it might make the main page look not perfect, so just never mind." Excepting some extreme cases, one productive editor is still far more valuable than even a few thousand passing readers feeling that Wikipedia has poor grammar. When it's plagiarism, yes it's more serious, but again it's both about changing the culture and having to spend more time reviewing problems.

In summary, yes there are problems with DYK, but they are not insuperable ones, and DYK serves an important role that seems sometimes to be misunderstood both by those regularly involved with it, and those who are not.

--Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I've struck the slight sarcasm at the start of what I just wrote because I feel it's uncalled for. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I just wanted to say I read it all :) The problem is that it's too easy for those seeking rewards to pop out plagiarized DYKs, and their next step is often RFA. I don't know what the solution is, but plagiarism on the main page is a problem that needs to be solved. I suspect the solution is to be found in better scrutiny at RFA, as that may put an end to the reward seeking (and some other problems as well :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Are DYKs really the problem?

Comment: this seems to have evolved into a bit of a witch hunt on DYKs. I personally do not participate in that area, but I would like to point out that in an encyclopedia open to anyone to edit, the fact that a significant amount of info being cut and past is not surprising, especially in light of our strict rules regarding all info be sourced. I wonder if perhaps the problem should be looked into from the back end. For instance, I often see (citation needed) tags in articles...perhaps a (cut & paste) tag would be useful. Editors who cut and paste info (within reason) could include this tag to alert other editors that the section needs attention, without losing the info, and it shows good faith on our part without shutting out editros who may not be "skillful" enough to "write in own words" information on the spot. Just a thought. The Eskimo (talk) 03:38, 29 October 2010 (UTC)\

Sorry, but I don't see how this would work. This would presuppose that those users who are incapable of avoiding copy/paste writing have an awareness of the problem and know their writing needs to be improved. Well, they don't. Or if they do, it would be their own damned responsibility to fix it, and not leave the work to others. No, sorry, if somebody isn't "skillful" enough to write something in their own words, then the only solution is they shouldn't be editing here, or at least not trying to create substantial new content. Fut.Perf. ☼ 04:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

There is already a {{copypaste}} tag - it gets it listed as a copyright problem, because that's what they generally are. As Fut.Perf. says, if an editor can't write something in their own words then they shouldn't be writing here, at the very least not without close supervision from someone who's willing and able to check and fix all of their work. Again, assuming good faith does not mean we just assume that editors aren't creating copyright violations, it means we assume they're not creating them intentionally. VernoWhitney (talk) 15:15, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes I think they are. Things like DYK, wikipcup, etc. which reward users with badges, points, or other things are opening themselves up to abuse. It's an unfortunate fact of life that people will cheat. Any large system inevitable gets people trying to game it, or outright break it to come out on top, prove a point, or with some other motivation. It's why we have policies against that kind of thing here. As the DYK is set up, as with the wikicup we're actually creating an environment that fuels that kind of behaviour. As such I think they should both be shut down. If anyone would actually stop doing the work they're doing because they're no longer getting virtual points for it, I'd say we probably don't need their contribs in the first place. DYK could exist, but I think under a different format.--Crossmr (talk) 08:21, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

On that logic we would ban barnstars as well, since your definition of "things which reward users with badges" would include pretty much the whole of Wikipedia as one of those "things". --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

(Note: that was a slightly careless edit on my part - Errant's following comment is a reply to Crossmr not to me) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:36, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

No, because barnstars are given randomly by other users generally. The Wikicup and DYK has very specific rewards for very specific tasks. Two totally different environments.--Crossmr (talk) 23:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. They are part of the "problem" anyway. The wider problem, of course, is that writing a DYK article and other peacocking is vastly more rewarding than the grunt work of copyediting, cleanup, copyvio checking, fact checking etc. Which is fine, that is just how the world works. But there is definitely mileage in, I think, talking about ways to improve the ability of DYK (et al) checks to catch these problems. Plagarism articles are definitely common at DYK, so that is a specific we can look to address (not here of course) --Errant [tmorton166] ^(chat!) 17:36, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Cough

This is the Noticeboard for Incidents. This thread has evolved long past discussion of a specific incident, which seems more or less resolved. Later contributions in the thread are valuable in illuminating broader issues, which seem to be primarily

1. DYK scrutiny (in terms of copyvio checking and info verification)
2. perhaps wider than expected prevalence of copy-pasting, possibly with close paraphrasing, among experienced contributors

These are obviously issues worth discussing, but not here. Rather than chop off this discussion at the knees and risk it dying, let's focus quickly on how else to take this forward; a couple of WP:RFCs I would think. Perhaps someone could volunteer to take one or both of these issues forward for discussion elsewhere. Rd232 ^talk 10:17, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I think this is over. Dude made a mistake, fessed up to it, got a slap on the wrist, willing to do it right, newbie 'professor' says "IMA GUNNA GET MAH PITCHFORK AND BUTANE", vets say 'lol shut up noob', now it's pretty much become redundant. No block necessary, just help him fix it and move on. Vodello (talk) 14:10, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep, close it ... doesn't look like I should hold my breath for an apology ... I might die first :) Working on a Signpost publication about these issues, which are extensive-- what is plagiarism vs. copyvio, how to detect them, how to deal with them when we find them, etc. ... stay tuned! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:52, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this is no longer an incident. I disagree that DYK deserves scrutiny. DYK should be scrutinized the same as any article, not more. I pre-emptively apologize to Camelbinky if this is seen as an attack, it's not. Camelbinky shouldn't be blocked because the problem is identified. What is unresolved is what to do with plagiarism. I think that anyone that plagiarizes should be immediately blocked until they understand the issue and agree to fix their mess. After unblock, we should say "no hard feelings, just help us keep Wikipedia plagiarism free". Again, I agree that this is no longer an incident but a systems problem. Fiona United (talk) 17:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Blocking is never punitive. It is to prevent a further problem; so if Camelbinky understands what went wrong and takes steps to make sure it does not happen again then that is the right outcome. We always try to assume good faith; in that an attempt was made to stick to the policy, even if that attempt went wrong. Of course, if xhe does not stop this sort of activity, then a block becomes a possibility. This is a well established process. (on the DYK issue, I think the argument is that DYK gives less scrutiny than normal article scrutiny, which is where part of the problem may lie in not catching these issues) --Errant [tmorton166] ^(chat!) 17:33, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

(I think that's a red herring argument - there is no "normal article scrutiny" for a randomly created 1500 character article that somehow gives more scrutiny than if the same randomly created 1500 character article happens to get submitted to DYK. DYK only adds scrutiny, not removes it - but the issue for some people is that it also places articles on the front page and rewards article creation.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to other article reviews; such as those prompted by copyedit/sourcing tags. DYK articles are checked, but given the risk associated with their creation, sometimes not tightly enough. --Errant [tmorton166] ^(chat!) 19:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Having spent a good portion of the last 24 hours on this issue, learning more about plagiarism and copyvio (and the differences), seeing the amount of feedback on my talk page, and learning how really labor intensive it is to clean up after copyvios and plagiarism, I do have something to add that is hopefully relevant to ANI. I don't think many people do this intentionally, and support WP:AGFC. But the amount of editor time that goes in to DYK reviews and cleaning up after plagiarism and copyvios indicates to me that, when we know an editor plagiarizes, we should keep them on a very short block leash if they also disrupt in other ways, including "minor" offenses like AGF that wouldn't normally result in a block. Mature editors will recognize their mistakes, clean up after themselves, and not become a drain on other productive editors: if a plagiarizing editor doesn't toe the line on other behavioral guidelines very closely, that is probably an indication of immaturity and a general lack of compatibility with Wikipedia editing, and I suggest we should apply strict blocks to those editors in the event of any other disruptive behaviors-- the timesink in cleaning these things up, and reviewing DYKs, is enormous, and those editors may need to be shown the door more quickly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Would you say the same if the editor was writing featured articles? Do you think WP:FAC is perfect at finding passages that have been "lifted" from U.S. government publications? Of course it's not, nor is it a big deal compared with the many other problems of Wikipedia. Physchim62 (talk) 18:13, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

In a word: [77] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Copyvio and close paraphrase

As I understand it, you can't copy and paste into an article with the intention of then rewording it. It's also a bad idea as you may end up with a close paraphrase, which we treat as copyvio. The essay at WP:Close paraphrase should be used as guidance (and should probably be a guideline). Dougweller (talk) 17:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

New DYK/BLP issue

And now we've got a BLP DYK on the main page, largely sourced to "Guampedia": José Sisto. Need to get through that soon! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Erm, BLP issues for someone who was a political leader in 1899? Do you actually read these articles before you post here, or do you go all guns a blazing for whatever is this week's pet cause, regardless of whether it's appropriate or not? Why should anyone bother to listen to you, if the latter is the case? Physchim62 (talk) 19:06, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Pysc, I know you're still terribly upset that one wayward "s" that no one but you saw in a FAC eons ago, but do try to put that enormous tragedy behind you! OK, my mistake-- it's not a BLP, but we don't cite articles to "guampedia", and if it were a BLP, I doubt that would have been caught at DYK anyway. Point less serious, although less urgent, but same. WP:V is as important as BLP. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Considering they claim to be peer-reviewed, why aren't they a RS? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Discussing at Talk:José Sisto (the original citation I clicked was one of those crappy webcitation archives, that didn't take me to the original source, and I thought I was at archive.org). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

And now we have an incident: my good faith edits to remove a non-RS labeled as "vandalism" by an editor who has expressed outrage many times at FAC (over a wayward "s"), and recently told me to STFU. I let the "STFU" slide-- now I'm less inclined to let this continue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:21, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Ouch, yes, major slap on the wrist to Physch for that --Errant [tmorton166] ^(chat!) 19:23, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep, I agree STFU is more mild than "idiotic" or "sycophantic". Carry on, business as usual! But perhaps someone can get Physchim to clean up his edit summaries and section headings. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Reading the discussion at Talk:José Sisto makes it pretty clear that Guampedia qualifies as WP:RS; plus the article was obviously not a BLP, being about an individual who served as the Commissioner of Guam in 1898. So what's the deal with torches and pitchforks here? Nsk92 (talk) 04:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Scanning the DYK and related talk pages, I believe both the original copyvio issue and the (non-)BLP issue with Sisto have been resolved and this thread can be closed, unless Sandy, Physchim or someone else disagrees. 28bytes (talk) 04:28, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

yea, that one was a miss and a mistake by moi (nowhere in the article did it say the man was dead, and I clicked on one of those damn webcitation links and thought I was at archive.org). Still very big problems at DYK, but they did pull a very bad BLP from the mainpage when I pointed it out, and I haven't found any new plagiarism or copyvios all day, so things are looking better. It was kind of Camelbinky to call these problems to everyone's attention. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Sanction?

I know everyone wants this thread to die, but: I think some sort of unambiguous message is needed for Camelbinky: any hint of further problems along these lines will lead to a long block. Given what is written at WP:COPYVIO, I'm pretty surprised a block hasn't happened already -- it's fine that Camelbinky has apparently recognized that there is a problem and has agreed to alter practice, but in general I would have thought it would have been the first response while things get sorted out. Anyone arguing that plagiarism isn't a serious issue for an encyclopedia needs to encounter an army of cluebats. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, he hasn't edited since his last edit here, so we don't really know if he'll clean up his articles, and I feel it's unfair to single him out because he happened to call attention to himself by posting here, when plagiarism is rampant throughout Wiki and he is by no means the only editor rushing articles through DYK. I suggest we should wait and see what he does if he comes back, WP:AGFC, and think more along the lines of how rampant this is and how the reward culture on Wiki is feeding it. But I do think we quickly need to show editors to the door who continue violating copyright if they also engage in any other kind of disruptive behaviors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:16, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Per SG, use of the block option is for the prevention of disruption and it is difficult to see how sanctioning Cb now would achieve this in respect of these issues. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree, sanctions are not punitive.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Time to scrap DYK?

{{[[Template:Not happenin'. Section getting more heat than light. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)|Not happenin'. Section getting more heat than light. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)]]}}

It's not up to you to unilaterally close a discussion like this. Admittedly, this probably should be split off into an RFC, but there is nothing wrong with having the discussion here. NW (Talk) 01:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Kudos to Sandy for spotting the plagiarism at DYK. I've actually had quite a concern about DYK for a while. There's nothing wrong with an "interesting facts" format - but I suspect the concentration on new articles has now become a problem. If I want my content on the mainpage (and many of us are vain enough to want that), I've two main choices - I can churn out a DYK new article in an hour, or I can spend three weeks writing a FA, having researched, rewritten, learned MOS, and gone through peer reviews. If I write a FA, I may then wait two years before it gets on mainpage; if I write a DYK I have an excellent chance of it being featured 5 days later.

Now, this might have made sense when Wikipedia has major gaps in article coverage, but that's no longer the case. That means DYK focuses people on writing more and more obscure new articles on things there's less and less chance of them knowing anything about. Further, I'd argue that we are now at the stage where getting people to improve existing articles (particularly core ones) ought to be the focus of our attention. Why, oh, why don't recently approved FAs get mentioned on mainpage? Some "DYK" hooks could easily come "from our best content" (or we could shrink DYK, and have something featuring FAs? Or why not use Good Articles? (Yes, I know, most aren't that good, but still.)

We can focus on the cups and awards, but the greatest incentive is the mainpage itself. Is it time to shift the incentives to encourage people to do what we need them to do?

(We should probably take this discussion somewhere else. Except anywhere else will be full of DYK fanboys.)--Scott Mac 00:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

DYK is a great incentive for actually creating new content (and one of the only incentives in fact) - to get rid of it altogether because of some simple plagiarism problems would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater and would do the encyclopedia a disservice. There are other ways of dealing with plagiarism problems in new articles.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

You've ignored my point. My point was to move the incentive to article improvement. That's not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it's suggesting the baby should to be taken out because it is cleaner than his dirty brother, and it's time to bath something else.--Scott Mac 00:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no reason why there can't be incentives for both article creation and article improvement. Resolute 00:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

True. But that's not a reason not to say that article improvement shouldn't be more of a focus now.--Scott Mac 00:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, and though it is a perennial discussion, one can always restart the idea of swapping some DYK entries to recent GA promotions, for instance. I would note from a personal perspective that the majority of my DYK credits this year were for expansions, not creations, so it it should be noted that DYK also acts as an incentive for improvement. Though, of course, a good expansion requires far more effort than a simple creation. Resolute 00:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I find nothing to disagree with in what Scott says. Maunus, which is better: lots of new content of shit quality that is mostly plagiarized, or slightly less new content? Not really a tough question there. If the DYK criteria were changed from net new articles to recently-promoted-to-GA, we would largely lose the plagiarism problem, and gain more GA-class articles. And there are enough people involved in GA to prevent it from becoming another bauble-gathering exercise. → ROUX ₪ 00:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

i think instead of making incentives maybe it would be better to assist new users in creating content without it being removed. i know lots of people wont edit wikipedia because people here are cruel to newbies. if the experience of contributing is rewarding itself who needs incentives. Aisha9152 (talk) 02:01, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it has been shown that there is a general problem of plagiarism with DYK articles- at least not one that couldn't be resolved by simply raising the standard for enforcing quality of DYK selections. I think giving new GA's a chance to be featured on the front page is a good idea. I know some editors find bauble-gathering distasteful (generally those aren't content editors I'd say), but that is really their problem. I think it is perfectly legitimate that volunteer editors find other ways of deriving satisfaction from contributing. I think the lack of recognition of content contribution and improvement efforts will be the cause of one wikipedia's biggest challenges in the future.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Plagiarism wouldn't be my main reason to switch. It's more a recognition that getting your work on DYK is a powerful incentive - and we'd be better giving incentive improving core content than creating more articles on mainly trivial subjects.--Scott Mac 00:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that with the GA's the bottleneck isn't getting editors to improve content but to get reviewers to review it. I suspect the lack of reviewers might be an explanation of difficulties checking up sufficiently on DYK's. ·Maunus·ƛ· 00:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

That is a hell of an attack on the people who regularly submit DYK nominations, Roux. I trust you have citeable evidence that DYK entries are "shit quality that is mostly plagiarized"? Resolute 00:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Reading the sections above should prove illuminating to you. → ROUX ₪ 00:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Instead of complaining and making such crap comments as Roux, why don't you all help out at DYK instead of just flapping your jaws? — Rlevse • Talk • 00:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Seriously? → ROUX ₪ 00:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Instead of spending time enabeling a crap, harmful project that feeds and encourages mediocrity (at best), why not help end something that degrades the overall content of the website?Bali ultimate (talk) 01:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm currently trying to reconcile this comment with this DYK nomination two days ago. SmartSE (talk) 09:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I recommend this section (about closing DYK) be closed/archived cause it ain't happenin'. A well-used, constantly updated section is not being closed because of one instance of plagiarism. Close, move on. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, you've ignored what I said. There are good reasons to depart from featuring new articles, besides plagiarism. I smell defensive vested interests here.--Scott Mac 01:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• DYK is only as good as the imagination of those editors who create or expand new articles. The point, surely, is to invite the reader into enquiring further, and arguably, to educate. A boring article can be lifted by an enticing hook, although that may not apply to simple lists. However, it seems to me that if a new article can't contain an interesting, if not beguiling, fact, then our creative writing talents are somewhat limited. Rodhullandemu 01:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Not sure how that answers my point. That would be true of improved old articles too.--Scott Mac 01:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
    • "Improved old articles" doesn't necessarily address the "5 x expansion" criterion for DYK. It's perfectly possible to satisfy the former, but not the latter. That's why DYK exists, er, perhaps. Rodhullandemu 01:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
      • I think I'm suggesting scrapping the criteria and starting again, so that rather than writing a new article, or expanding a stub, one was encouraged to (say) fix up a long rambling mess, or to rewrite a POV warzone, or to improve something to a good article.--Scott Mac 01:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
        • I agree that we need ways of creating incentives to doing that as well.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
          • Again, Scott, you have no consensus, no way the community is going to scrap a well-used program because of one instance of plagiarism. It ain't happenin'. There is not "defensive vested interests", it is a program that is actually used on the front page of the Wiki....all Wikis. That would have to be cleared by Jimbo, the community and MASSIVE consensus. So, either you start an RFC, or again, it ain't happenin'. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I wrote a great reply, but got edit-conflicted. Goodnight. Rodhullandemu 01:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps while you all are "flapping your jaws" and discussing "one instance of plagiarism", some adults might want to start checking back on a number of old DYKs for plagiarism, including those on the mainpage at the moment. User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox#Identified DYK problems. The problem is long-standing and rampant, they're not hard to find, and there's work to be done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Has WP:SOFIXIT been deleted? I must have missed that. Cue Malleus::: Rodhullandemu 01:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Comments stricken. That's the second time I have had to do it in the last two days. Next time I will be requesting a lengthy block. NW (Talk) 01:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps once we're done dealing with plagiarism, we can look at how DYK has fueled RFA, and then the bigger issue of admin abuse. Cue, well if I said I'd be blocked, wouldn't I? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Rodhallandemu has a point with SOFIXIT and perhaps we need a couple admins checking on these articles to make sure they are "up to snuff" before being put in queue. Otherwise, I still see no reason to scrap a program that is on every Wiki from the 1 article Kanuri Wiki to our English Wiki. It would have to go through consensus, potentially, on each and every Wiki. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

You are clearly unaware of just how much work is involved to SOFIXIT this huge problem. But if I called you a "wanker", as Rod did Malleus, or told you to STFU, I'd be blocked instead of thanked for exposing this problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:59, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Please take this to AN, bring DYK to MfD, or have an RfC on the talkpage. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 02:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

DYK is not the issue IMHO but people who nominate "bad" articles there. No need to end a very good idea because of some turbulence ;)--White Shadows ^{Your guess is as good as mine} 02:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Then perhaps WP:AN would be more appropriate, since we don't need to open up an incident on every single person that nominates "bad" articles there. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 02:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea.--White Shadows ^{Your guess is as good as mine} 02:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Shall I reclose or copy/paste move this to AN? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

A move to AN is likely the best course of action.--White Shadows ^{Your guess is as good as mine} 02:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we can get some feedback from editors who know WP:SIG? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

break

Well, I can't see any entry at WP:AN. If I look around wikipedia, I still see large numbers of one-line (or slightly bigger) expandable stubs, so I still see a place for DYK in the 5x expansion of these stubs as a carrot to get on the mainpage. There have also been periodic reviews about making way or GAs to appear on the main page (anyone want to list how many?). I must say I like the idea of "newly improved articles" which might include 1 or 2 newly-minted GAs. So is it time for a Request for Comment folks? Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I think so; Scott Mac's idea is at least worth a try. History: the climb up the grease pole at RFA was fueled by FAs years ago and for several years, leading to a high number of ill-prepared nominations from editors who ... surprise ... showed up at RFA weeks later. Once that was shut down by stricter rules and review at FAC, that activity moved over to GA, and for a while we saw some really awful GA passes (that showed up as deficient FACs weeks later). Geometry guy, Ling.Nut, Malleus Fatuorum, Awadewit and a legion of editors too long to list got on that situation, and GAs now are a mostly respectable bunch of articles, with sporadic exceptions that were bad passes and are now dealt with better than they were a few years ago. So, those looking for quick and easy rewards have moved on to DYK, where it is fairly easy (because of the rules there) to put up a plagiarized, poorly-sourced, perhaps not even notable article and get it guaranteed to appear on the mainpage, then use their DYKs to claim content experience to pass RFA. This demeans the work of the many good and responsible writers who also run their content through DYK, results in plagiarism and articles that violate our core polices being displayed on the main page, and lowers the caliber of the admin corp. I do not believe DYK's problems will be solvable quickly or easily; the structure there is just overwhelmed by too many submissions, and the rules encourage quick and dirty content, where plagiarism abounds. There will be an enormous problem, though, in trying to change DYK's mainpage status: the reward culture adherents-- who are many-- will kick and scream and shout it down. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Now, this might have made sense when Wikipedia has major gaps in article coverage, but that's no longer the case. Scottmac, I don't think we are at that stage yet. Have we an article on every ship, every church, every windmill? Not yet we don't. DYK does have a use, part of which is encouraging content creation and expansion. Since I started contributing to Wikipedia, standards at DYK have been raised so that articles have to be in a reasonable shape to be considered. Mjroots (talk) 05:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

If I can find four plagiarized articles with a mere half an hour's work of checking the DYKbot, no matter how hard they're trying over there, I can't say the quality of some DYK articles on the main page is enhancing Wiki's reputation enough to make the content expansion worthwhile. Good editors will go for GA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't scrap DYK. Doing so would be, as others have pointed out, to 'throw the baby out with the bath water'. Even though there might be a couple of plagiarism problems (and these can be fixed, quite easily in fact), think of how many new articles or expansions will be lost should we get rid of DYK! Sandy says that 'good editors will go for GA'. However, you must remember that many articles simply don't have enough on them around the Internet or in libraries to get to that level - although they're still notable, there just isn't enough out there for a GA-level article. Should we scrap DYK, we might lose many of these types of articles, as editors won't receive the 'reward' they were expecting. I'm not saying that new articles should be all about rewards, but many editors think this way. If you'd like examples of 'good enough for DYK but not enough around for GA' articles, check out Anthracite, Alberta and Betsy Warland - both incredibly difficult to research, but good additions to the 'pedia. Many editors simply wouldn't have bothered without DYK. Arctic Night 06:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious about how these "couple of plagiarism problems" (they aren't a couple, they're legendary, I've been hearing about them for years, and just started checking, and easily found half a dozen with almost no work) are going to "quite easily [be] fixed in fact". Could you please elaborate? Are you aware of how hard our few good copyright people have to work to solve all the problems created by this wonderful "new content"? It's also not necessary to pre-hash what would be in an RFC here, so I won't address your misstatements about GA. The purpose of ANI is to discuss how to solve the DYK and overall plagiarism issue-- not to "do" the RFC. It is assumed that the many DYK adherants will scream: no need to do it here, that's what an RFC is for. The only way to screen for plagiarism is to, well, know policy and do the work, and that has not been happening at DYK. GA has many competent reviewers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The question is: are these bad new articles being written only because people want the reward offered by DYK, or would they also get written otherwise? In the first case, you would be right in saying that DYK offers a bad incentive; in the second case, DYK at least has a chance of acting as an additional filter, however ineffective. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that a RfC should establish whether there are indeed systemic flaws with DYK and if so, how to fix them. This unstructured discussion is not very helpful, since it can really bring up only anecdotal evidence. A careful review of recent DYK submissions could reveal, for instance, whether the problem lies with the process itself or is simply a matter of misconduct by a number of individual plagiarists who may need to be sanctioned.  Sandstein  09:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

@Future perfect ... from my personal experience (anecdote speaking here), there are two kinds of editors, generally, writing DYKs. The first are those who write articles that are legitimately headed to FA, the second are those who are seeking rewards. Of course, there are likely others that fall in the cracks, but I know the FA writers, and I know the problems that show up at RFA and WIKICUP and GA and every now and then get as far as FA before we find the problems. There is definitely a problem in the process, because their only focus is on the hook; little understanding of other Wiki policies in evidence from some of the reviewers there. And the rules reinforce reward-seeking behavior, because you only have to pop up a few characters, with one verifiable hook. My understanding is that many competent reviewers leave there in disgust (reference Bali ultimate's first posts here; I've heard same.) And I don't really appreciate that because they're all so mad at me right now, I get admin abuse and no apology. Will admins take over this mess now, pls-- I'm not interested in following this anymore; y'all might recall that I didn't bring this thread to begin with. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

And if you need more evidence of incompetence over there, here's four. First, I told them about Black Eyed Kids yesterday-- nothing done, it went on the main page. Second, when did this thread start? How long have they known about these problems? So why am I in there tonight still finding blatant plagiarism, which doesn't take ten minutes to find? Why aren't they doing it? Third, finding plagiarism isn't hard: you look at a trivially short article, you look at the main source, you see the problem in a second. These aren't long articles with many sources! Yet they're over there spinning their wheels talking about using a bot, when a bot won't solve this problem-- it needs eyes. Fourth, they talk about only verifying hooks-- they're putting entire articles on the main page, where things like BLP policy and copyvio matter. We've got plagiarism all over the place, and if we are to clean it up, a task force would have to go back through boatloads of DYKs. Besides getting some oversight into what DYK is putting on the main page. I think the problem there is that no one is in charge, so the left hand can't even find the right, much less talk to it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I never deliberately look at DYK articles, but I've seen some in the past that were just plain wrong, pov, etc. But copyvio and BLP violations are worse and should not be tolerated on the main page. Dougweller (talk) 10:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

On the main page now

• Brown Lady of Raynham Hall. It does not take 10 minutes to find these problems; admins need to start checking DYK. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Removed from DYK. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Thanks (they don't like me much over there :) I checked the same editor's last two DYKs, and they didn't use reliable sources. I didn't bother checking them for copyvios, because they're not currently on the mainpage, there are problems in three of the DYKs on the mainpage, and a cleanup task force on DYK plagiarism is going to be needed, for all those who say "easy cleanup" and SOFIXIT. That makes almost ten problems I've found just in the last few hours. User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox#Identified DYK problems SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Multiple plagiarized DYK submissions by Jack1956

I checked three of the editor's DYK's:

• Walter Dew includes a copyvio from here. (I verified with the Internet Archive that the text was published there before it was included in the article.)
• Elizabeth Dickens – I could not find a problem with this.
• Pons Neronianus started as a copyvio from [78], which was detected by CorenSearchBot and tagged as such. The editor's reaction was to obscure the copyvio [79], expand the article further, and take it to DYK.

I am sure it is worth looking at the editor's common interests with CorenSearchBot: [80]. Among the first three articles on the list, two contain[ed?] clear (although disguised) copyvios by this user. Hans Adler 10:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

oopsie, I've got to go notify him now of this discussion! On my way ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:17, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• I've noted elsewhere that SandyGeorgia got this wrong. But having been through the sources myself and cleaned up the citations, it's fairly apparent to me that the reason that the article was cited so badly in the first place, and why I've had to put a {{pageneeded}} against one of the citations, is that it's basically the OUP dictionary's Charles Fitzroy Doll article sentence for sentence, and the OUP article didn't provide the full Gray1985 citation and got the year wrong and provided only partial title in the Pevsner citation, too. I actually went and found out the page number and correct publication information for Pevsner, and even found an extra supporting source. However, the fact that Jack1956 (talk · contribs) made exactly the same citation mistakes and deficiencies as the OUP dictionary indicates to me that the sources being cited were just being taken from the main source, and that that latter has been plagiarized.

  Having just spent all of the time looking up and correcting the citations, I'm rather annoyed that it does appear that the entire article has to go. The OUP most definitely does not release its dictionary of architecture as free content. I'll run it by Moonriddengirl. Uncle G (talk) 10:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Deep breath time: a plea

Cross-post from WT:DYK

Okay, everyone, deep breath time. On both sides. Here's what I figure:

• Credible problems have been found on DYK approved articles regarding WP:V and copyvio/close paraphrasing/plagiarism
• At the current time, every time a new set goes on the Main Page, we just get inundated with new sections regarding the new set of articles
• This is unhelpful when we've already identified the problem and are still discussing how to best deal with it (WT:DYK#Proposal for trial). There needs to be a buffer or this mess will not sort itself out.
• With every new complaint on every new set the same issues are getting rehashed every six hours. It's going to be non-stop.
• Words and accusations have been exchanged here and at WT:DYK by both sides, which has gone as far as to lead to a warning for NPA against an arbitrator. This is not the right atmosphere to continue.

Therefore I ask that SandyGeorgia refrain from any further interaction regarding tagging problem articles on the Main Page until after they've been taken off and that she stop bringing the issues here or WT:DYK - just do the tagging and notification which is needed, no need to generate more heat.

And I ask those of us DYK regulars take all that has been pointed out by Sandy and others at ANI and here - constructively or not, POINT-ily or not, civilly or not - in stride and figure out where to go from here.

Sandy, as I said below - (at least for now) ignore DYK and let us sort our mess out. You've identified a problem but are giving us absolutely zero time to do anything about it by just heaping fuel onto the fire every time a new set goes on the Main Page.

Please, people, we can reach a conclusion here but neither side is doing anything which will let us get there. StrPby (talk) 09:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not interested in working on this problem, but take note of how this thread started-- because I commited the horrific sin of not knowing that I needed to notify. So if you all have plagiarism on the main page, I'm for sure going to notify you so you can pull it. One incidence of admin abuse is enough for me. I'm glad to sign off of this, but Rlevse's "wagging jaws" and references to "one instance", on top of the abusive admin, infuriated me-- rightly so, I think. I'm done with it now if SOMEONE besides me will start looking at it. You all are talking but doing nothing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Which is witch?

By coincidence, the current FA is about a witch hunt. I picked out a sentence and compared it with the source:

FA: "... she was said to be a tall, good-looking, humorous, and unconventional woman who grew medicinal herbs, owned prime waterfront property, and wore trousers—taboo for women at that time—when she worked on the farm."

USA Today: "Sherwood was a tall, good-looking and unconventional woman who grew herbs for medicine, owned prime waterfront property and wore trousers — taboo for women at that time — when she planted crops."

Shall we shut down the FA process for its plagiarism and glory-seeking too? Colonel Warden (talk) 10:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• If you can draw comparisons to what is going on at DYK with FAC, have at it. The difference between DYK and FAC is that someone DOES something about things. Rlevse wrote that article, I believe; he's also very involved with DYK. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• You've left out the important part, which is the preceding "said to be"; that is, it's a direct quotation and explicitly marked as such. – iridescent 10:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't see any quote marks in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm with SandyGeorgia here. There aren't any quotation marks and it doesn't read as a quotation. (Even if it did, the obvious question that I have as a reader is "Said by whom?".) And I've just quickly looked through the other source that supposedly supports that content, and I can find no mention of tallness, good looks, or even trousers. That citation needs a specific page number, at minimum.

    Colonel Warden has a good point. It's not DYK itself that's the problem. It's specific editors that are the problem, compounded by a process that has a whole load of people acting like the desperate contestants in a television game show who are stuck trying to do something at the end of a conveyor belt that is deliberately run too fast for them to manage. A lot of this palaver, here and at Wikipedia talk:Did you know (where there's a whole load of parallel discussion, by the way), could have been avoided if the specifics had been addressed from the start, rather than blanket generalizations labelling everyone who does work at DYK as "culprits". Uncle G (talk) 11:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Action needed on DYK Main Page article

Resolved

Related to (but yet unrelated to) the massive thread above, can we get an admin to remove Black Eyed Kids from the mainpage per WP:ERRORS as it's been put up for AFD? StrPby (talk) 08:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Y Done.  Sandstein  09:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I brought up the problems with that article on DYK talk more than 24 hours ago, tagged the article, and they didn't pull it. I was quite surprised to see it go on the main page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Now, can we get a task force of competent admins in place to oversee DYK, so I can go back to my usual work and stop being abused by admins? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Or, since it's self-admittedly not "(your) usual work", you could just ignore DYK and let us sort our mess out. You've identified a problem but are giving us absolutely zero time to do anything about it by just heaping fuel onto the fire every time a new set goes on the Main Page. StrPby (talk) 09:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

As I said, MORE than glad to leave this mess, but don't appreciate wrong statements like "giving us absolutely zero time to do anything" ... I told DYK more than 24 hours ago about Black Eyed Kids and you've known about the plagiarism problem for days, yet you put one up tonight. Get someone to check what you're putting up! Do you all do everything by bot? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Someone moved this thread here from the bottom of the page, and that caused a lot of grief (see my talk). The Black Eyed Kids article has nothing to do with plagiarism. I checked a lot of Panyd's other DYKs and found them to be high quality. The problem here is an entirely different one. My understanding from DYK talk is that the same DYK reviewer who passed the hook is the one who added the non-reliable sources-- not Panyd! (And why is that happening?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I just asked Sandstein to help correct an error in a shortly upcoming classical music DYK (queue 2 at the moment) which wasn't checked properly with the article. Mathsci (talk) 10:49, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Seeking Range block of IPs

Resolved

 – The articles have been semi-protected. Please re-report here if the problem persists afterward.

Could an admin check into this. It seems an IP hopping vandal with an agenda is continuing to disrupt various film related articles two example articles List of thriller films: 1990s and List of action films of the 1980s. Semi protection does not seem to help, as he just goes on to a different article. According to the talk page they may be sockpuppets of User:Pé de Chinelo. Feinoha ^{Talk, My master} 17:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC) 0

Can you provide us with a full list of articles where disruption is occurring or a list of IP addresses engaging in disruptive editing on the said pages? -FASTILY ^(TALK) 18:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

• Special:Contributions/187.35.36.216

• Special:Contributions/201.43.207.250
• Special:Contributions/201.92.133.180
• Special:Contributions/201.95.49.160
• Special:Contributions/201.68.206.194
• Special:Contributions/201.13.197.253

Article hit before they were semi-ed:

• List of action films of the 1980s
• List of action films of the 1990s
• List of action films of the 2000s
• List of action films of the 2010s
• List of thriller films: 1990s

May be more articles, that I'm not aware of.

Other notes:

• User:Andrzejbanas, seems to be a target of this vandal's edits as seen in User_talk:Andrzejbanas.
• Checked on the Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Pé_de_Chinelo/Archive, which seems to indicate that the vandal may be using the same ranges mentioned in the case. Feinoha ^{Talk, My master} 19:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Please note: See this page also [81]. Some of us are trying to tag the new ip's as we catch them but they change quite often. I am not sure that all of the recent ones are on the sock puppet report. The pattern over the last few months has been for this editor to disappear for a week or so and then return with a barrage of editing from multiple IP's on articles, their talk pages and Andrzejbanas talk page as mentioned above. Considering the range of the IP hopping and the language used in the personal attacks on Andrzejbanas (many of which have been rev/del by User:Edgar181) it is possible that a ban discussion should be opened on Pé de Chinelo. That is if one has not occurred before - I looked through the banned editors list and could not find this editors name but I might have missed it. MarnetteD | Talk 19:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I would be inclined to be against this. We are sometimes too quick to ask for a range block. Remember that range blocks should only be used in extreme cases, which this doesn't appear to be. Usually the vandal gets bored and moves on. Don't worry theres always someone around to catch vandalism, and if not, it gets fixed eventually.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

This editor has been socking since before June of 09. So the bored and moving on does not look to be happening anytime soon. The edit summaries are usually pretty vile which is why so many of them are rev/del. But I agree with your sentiments about range blocking and I know that they are to be avoided when possible. That is the reason that I suggested the ban so that we can revert this persons edits without fear of violating 3rr. MarnetteD | Talk 20:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Most editors such as this recognize the futility of their attempts fairly quickly, but the ones who are not so bright may take a bit longer to catch on. This one, I suspect, will take quite a bit longer. Long term semi-protection of the articles will likely be necessary. Range blocks probably aren't appropriate in this situation because of the broad range of IPs involved. For now, the articles have been semi-protected short term (Thank you, Looie496 and Courcelles) and I have applied rev/del to a few more of the childish edit summaries. -- Ed (Edgar181) 22:33, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I first noticed this user, using the 201.xx IP range, edit warring over genre on The Godfather, at least 2 years ago. Here are some diffs:

• [82]
• [83]
• [84]
• [85]
• [86]
• [87]
• [88]
• [89]

There are many, many more, but this gives you an idea of how he works. A full list of all the films on which he has edit-warred would be long, but would have to include, in addition to The Godfather, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, The Silence of the Lambs, Inglourious Basterds, and Heat. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 00:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Rangeblocks won't work, as he is operating from an entire /8 range. I also don't know if proposing a WP:BAN will work either, as the indefinite block obviously is being spat on. I think long-term semi-protection is the only option here. Hate to say it, but he has ruined it for everybody else. –MuZemike 17:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for adding your thoughts MuZemike. I only suggested the ban as a way for us to avoid getting blocked for a violation of the 3rr. It was once explained to me that banning doesn't keep away a pest like this editor but it does protect us when reverting its trolling. If I have been misinformed my apologies for suggesting it. MarnetteD | Talk 18:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Abu Ghraib images

The use of a very large group of images of the Abu Graib prison and abuse case have been unreasonable restricted by putting them on the MediaWiki:Bad image list. I think this restricted use of a very large group of Abu Graib images is unreasonable and has been done by a single administrator without providing a good reason. I think that needs some discussion here. I request to lift the restriction of the use of Abu Graib images by removing them from this list. Regards. IQinn (talk) 23:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Putting them on that list doesn't "unreasonably restrict" them unless it prevents their use on an article where it would be unreasonable to prevent their use, in which case that article can be added to the list this ceasing the restriction. Can you be more specific? What is the reasonable use that's being restricted?--Scott Mac 00:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Leave it up to the creativity of our editors when and where to use them without unnecessary hurdles. Simply no reason to have the Abu Graib images on that list. IQinn (talk) 00:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure there is. Those are photos of people being tortured, which is always an extremely sensitive matter, and hence restricts their practical use pretty narrowly up front. For example, posting them on one's user page would not be permitted. Also, wikipedia is not a picture-hosting site like flickr or something. Putting a "very large group" of any types of photos in an article is typically not allowed. A mundane example would be that while we might have a hundred pictures of dandelions at commons, we wouldn't or shouldn't have a hundred pictures of dandelions in the article about dandelions just because someone likes dandelions - there would have to be some uniqueness and notability about the photos. Certain Abu Graib photos became well-known for various reasons, and could be notable for the article. A "large group" wouldn't be. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:26, 30 October 2010

These are all examples we can deal with by common edition practice. Torture is not a sensible matter and Wikipedia is not censored WP:NOTCENSORED. I found it almost tasteless to add the Abu Graib images of torture to the MediaWiki:Bad image list. I strongly reject this practice. There is still no good reason to do so. IQinn (talk) 00:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there is a good reason, as I just told you. Maybe it would help if you would specify where you want to put the images, and how many of them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Using those photos except under very special circumstance would clearly be unethical and could even be a BLP matter. I think it is very prudent to have them on a list of pictures the use of which requires special thoughtfulness and better than average reasons. ·Maunus·ƛ· 01:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

How, exactly could use of those images in any non-vandalistic sense be a BLP violation, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 02:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

but is there any evidence that they were used unnecessarily? I think they could be legitimately be used for other articles that those relating to the subject itself, as they are some of the very clearest and best known images of torture. DGG ( talk ) 01:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not argue for permission from you to use them somewhere. I argue that that putting them on that list needs a strong reason. It limits the use of these images for most of our users as. As said leave it up to our users where to put them. There is no reason to restrict them fromt-up and let users go to additional processes. Having them on this list will automatically reduce the justified use of these images - as not many users have the patiences and skills to apply for the necessary exemption. The adding of these images to the list has already removed images from articles. Images simply vanished what could be interpreted as censorship considering the nature of these images. Just one example the image [File:Abu Ghraib 58.jpg] [90] (the image link does not even show up here) is included in Nudity#Punishment. The adding of the image to the MediaWiki:Bad image list has remove the showing of the image in Nudity#Punishment. The mass adding of Abu Graib images to the MediaWiki:Bad image list was unnecessary and has already removed valid use of the images. IQinn (talk) 01:27, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The argument you're making is a troll's argument. You should know better than that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't even know that list existed. If I were a new user, I'd simply assume I'm too stupid to add images; there's no explanation as to why it's not visible... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:31, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

BLP is an excellent reason, and it trumps nearly everything else on wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

And who says it's not visible? I'm an ordinary user, and I can see the list and its contents. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Just as an example. Any BLP problem to use [File:Abu Ghraib 58.jpg] [91] in Nudity#Punishment? IQinn (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The file is included in that section but not visible. IQinn (talk) 01:54, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll bet that if you asked on Mediawiki talk:Bad image list, you could get that specific image allowed for that specific article. These images do still deserve caution in general, though. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

As said i am not arguing for exemptions of single use of images in specified articles. That image should not have been removed from Nudity#Punishment in the first place and putting ever editor to a process of an front up approval for any use of almost all Abu Graib images on Wikipedia - that is the problem. IQinn (talk) 02:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I am also strongly concerned. Have these images "been used for widespread vandalism where blocks and protections are impractical?" Hipocrite (talk) 02:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, it was nice of someone to goddamned inform me of this discussion (clearly someone decided to bring this to the forum in absolutely outstanding faith, seeing as he wasn't getting his way). I'm glad that everyone finally decided to bring it up after I had the discussion up for two weeks, and after I used common sense and only added the images with naked bodies (which were filmed against the person's will!) and used exactly the same criteria as the other images. Sometimes this place is such a fucking joke. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

If you are unable to remain civil when your controversial administrative actions are questioned, there is certainly a problem. I'd also ask that you be more clear that the "someone" who informed you of this decision is not the "someone" who brought it to the forum. Hipocrite (talk) 02:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

That was my point. And don't patronize me; yes I'm upset that people who didn't give a fuck in the first place when it was on the page for two weeks are all of a sudden up in arms about me doing exactly what's been done with other images and immediately bring it to ANI without bothering to try to work it out there first or even inform me of it. But fine, do things as you all will. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, those who don't even know the list exists can hardly voice an opinion; if the whole system gave some sort of hint or display a placeholder that says "go to Mediawiki:so-and-so to request exemption" I wouldn't see that much of a problem. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Forget about it; I've just removed the damned things; just about no one else could apparently be bothered to care about the contradiction or possibility of vandalism. I'm going on Wikibreak. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I have restored Magog the Ogre's additions to the bad image list (but with an exception for Abu Ghraib 58.jpg on "Nudity"). Magog the Ogre's reasoning is correct, even though I do not appreciate his incivility above. The policy that commands the restricted use of these images is WP:BLP, specifically the WP:MUG section, which states: "Images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light. This is particularly important for police booking photographs (mugshots), or situations where the subject was not expecting to be photographed" (my underlining) The bad images list is an effective means to prevent the frivolous use of these images (e.g. on user pages). All normal uses of these images remain possible by making a request at MediaWiki_talk:Bad_image_list, but editorial consensus for the inclusion of such an image in any article should normally be established beforehand.  Sandstein  08:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

For that to apply, wouldn't the images need to actually have any identifying information in them? Faces were blacked out, if visible - unless you are referring to the mugging-for-the-camera soldiers? Hipocrite (talk) 08:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

(From my talk page) What matters, according to WP:MUG, is that the image is of a living person, not that it has identifiable features. The men depicted, at least, would recognize the images of themselves. Also I suppose they can be identified via court documents, etc.  Sandstein  08:39, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

This is a change to how the bad image list is being used. How many thousands of images which could be used BLP violations do we have? Do we want them all in the list? I prefer the old way. If the image is used a lot for vandalism or blp violations it should be on the list, but not as an precautionary measure. Garion96 (talk) 10:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of this, it would be great if it could display an informative message (say, "<FILENAME> may only be used on pages it has been specifically approved. Please request approval at MediaWiki talk:Bad image list.").

I also agree with Garion96 that the list should not be used as a precautionary measure, since it is antithetical to the wiki model to require an approval process before editing - no one can anticipate all possible legitimate uses of an image. If there's widespread disruption or BLP violation, fine, but in other cases warning/blocking may be preferable. T. Canens (talk) 12:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

That is true in principle, but the very existence of MediaWiki:Bad image list reflects community agreement that we make a precautionary exception to the Wiki principle with respect to certain images whose misuse may be problematic. (Protections, etc. are likewise precautionary). But I agree that the use of the image list for BLP rather than vandalism concerns seems to be rather novel, and if there are enough people who would prefer to have a policy discussion about that use first, that's OK with me.  Sandstein  12:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Community consensus is for to make an exception to images whose misuse is problemetic. Images which have repeatedly been used used for vandalism or BLP violations. For that old slippery slope argument :) I think the Abu Graib images should be removed from the list. Garion96 (talk) 13:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The BLP concern is a red herring. These images are BLP violations in themselves, as much on their own as in the Abu Ghraib article or any other. The BIL is stop images being added to articles. So which articles does this being prevent them being added to? -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 16:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll just add my voice to those opposed to such additions. I've never seen any of these images used for vandalism or even inappropriately. The arguments in favour basically demand that all of the hundreds of mugshots are also added, as well as all images which cast any unidentifiable individual in a bad light. That's just a waste of time unless they're actually going to be used for vandalism, and there are many more relevant pictures which could be added instead. It's much better to remain focused on the images which are actually regularly used for BLP vandalism, like penises and pussies used in infoboxes. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 16:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

If the images are copyright violations, then they should be zapped anyway, and then the BLP question becomes moot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:59, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I removed the images for now. If consensus changes that the bad image list should also be used as a precautionary measure they can be added again. Garion96 (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. No reason for those to be on that list.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:41, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-09-22/Charlie Anders

Resolved

 – Mediator assigned. Arctic Night 15:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Can someone uninvolved look at the above case and decide what to do with the case, and with any users on it (if anything). A checkuser has stated: The filer of this case, Formerly 76.169.140.29, is a single-purpose sockpuppet of Bigdaddy1981. I have blocked the former, but I am not sure whether to block the main account or not, considering that he has not edited in a month.

Thanks. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 01:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Ondertitel Open threat of edit warring, personal attacks, general uncivil behaviour

Resolved

 – editor blocked indef for making good on edit warring threat

I encountered Ondertitel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) over at Crack intro. Like many internet subjects this often attracts editors using less than stellar sources. He made several additions to the article. I checked them, and while a good portion of them were fine he did attribute some information to some self-published sources. I removed those bits and stated as much in my edit summary. He restored them and I began the process of explain WP:RS and WP:V to him. His replies have been full of insults and now has an open threat of edit warring on the article talk page. I'm going to keep undoing your undos until you execute your threat and call an administrator that tells me to attribute it already and stop it. As such he should be blocked until he rescinds his threat. I also previously warned him about NPA, CIVIL and OWN, but his follow-up comment is full of more of the same. His initial comment, for which I warned him, Don't blindly follow sheeple and use your brain., is followed up by I consider your "challenge" trolling/nut kicking/demotivational the way you did it., and you are a demotivational asshole,. There is a serious problem with WP:OWN here and his response to any opposition to his edits doesn't put it in a favorable light. Since he's specifically requested someone whack him, I suggest someone fulfill it.--Crossmr (talk) 00:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Still an open threat of edit warring here, if people need diffs: First insult [92], my warning to him after it [93], his follow-up where he threatens edit warring and continues with the insults and personal attacks [94].--Crossmr (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I've restored this. This still requires administrative attention. There is still a user threatening open ended edit warring.--Crossmr (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Account has not edited in over 72 hours - if they make good on the threats then action can be taken at that time. Ping me on my talkpage if this is the case? LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

You started it, you stop it. Stop seeking attention and stop wasting mine and the administrators their time over this. You saw I started fixing it, but you rather seek the opportunity for making trouble on a topic where you know nothing about and only have tried to remove the article instead of trying to contribute. As a matter of principle as reaction on your behavior I will undo your edit. Also, one source is valid, even for your standards. You know the sources exist and are already available on the article page but you willingly didn't try to attribute them yourself or give me the time to do it. That pisses me off. This is my latest revert. Next time I find time to make a proper article so this childish behavior can be ended. --Ondertitel (talk) 16:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• ...aaaaaaand, blocked indef. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

  Thanks, when I originally posted it, this was fresh. However, it was my understanding that an open threat of edit warring (Especially when there is history to demonstrate) was pretty much a block on spot until threat is rescinded.--Crossmr (talk) 00:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

  If the account is active, possibly; although I am not aware of such a guideline (not saying there is not one, just that I am not aware of one). The account had not edited between the reported incident and my review, so I took the view that potential disruption was not such to necessitate a sanction. Under the circumstances, having the editor come here and wave a large flag was fortunate for us and the project. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

User:IQinn

Resolved

• File:Hadj Boudella before his detention.jpg
• File:Belkacem bensayah.jpg
• File:Ravil Mingazov.jpg
• File:Nusrat Khan.jpg

I recently tagged the above images for deletion ({{di-replaceable fair use}}) as they're all non-free images of living individuals, and thus almost certainly replaceable. However, the images' uploader, Iqinn, removed the templates and opened an FFD discussion on each image. Now, since this is a specific copyright issue which isn't handled with an FFD but rather the template, I re-added them to the file pages. Still, however the uploader insists that a week-long FFD discussion needs to take place. The images were "scheduled" to be deleted after Friday, 10/29, but Iqinn keeps modifying the template so that they won't be deleted until after Sunday, 11/7. Any of my attempts to restore the templates to their original state get undone by the uploader, and they don't appear to be hearing anything I say to them. I'd normally try alternative means of dispute resolution, but since this is an issue regarding non-free images with presumably invalid fair use rationales, I'm bringing the issue up here. Swarm^Talk 04:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The user who tagged these images has tagged these images and without providing any detailed reason for his action. The tag this user added to the images allows for deletion after only 2 days and the deletion time was already up before i even noticed that he has mass added this tag to the images. These are not easy cases and it needs more time and it needs community consensus and more community input. I have submitted these images to FFD where an ordered content focused discussion can take place and i have ask the tagger to join this discussion. No reason to press for deletion without allowing for discussion and community consensus. IQinn (talk) 04:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

No, not really, Iqinn. Not if they're copyvios. The tag is meant to get rid of such images expeditiously and consensus doesn't enter into it. We can't violate someone's copyright by consensus. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 07:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, that's really disruptive and against the rules to delete and alter the tag the way you have. It's probably blockable, too. Don't do that again. You can always upload them again if you come up with an acceptable fair-use rationale or they get properly licensed. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 07:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm blocking Iqinn for 24 hours for edit-warring about the templates. I'm not blocking Swarm at this time because at least some of their reversions (of the removal of deletion templates by a non-administrator) are justified as reversions of disruption. With respect to deletion process, now that the files are at FFD, they can be processed there just as well as via the speedy deletion process.  Sandstein  07:59, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Would it be out of order to restore the original deadline date on the speedy tags? I don't think an editor should be able to interrupt that process that way. The only thing that's supposed to stop a speedy delete of a copyvio is an acceptable fair-use rationale. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 08:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

If done by you some might consider it edit-warring. I recommend to leave things as they are. The files are now in the deletion process and will be eventually deleted if they need to be, a few days don't make much of a difference.  Sandstein  08:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Sandstein, these are copyvios we're talking about. They aren't handled by FFDs, they're speedied. Modifying the template to postpone deletion is just as bad as removing it. Edit-warring in this case isn't the problem, the problem is that IQinn is trying to prevent the images from being speedied. If articles that qualify for speedy deletion come up on AfD, we don't "leave things as they are", we speedily delete them anyway. This is the same thing, it's a blatant copyvio and its speedy deletion has been postponed for more than a week (not just a few days). This isn't a content dispute between two editors, it's an image's uploader trying to prevent legitimate speedy deletion by being disruptive. Nowhere on Wikipedia do we practice moving something that qualifies for speedy deletion to a week long deletion discussion. That's the point. If it meets one of the CSD, we can delete it without the pointless debate. I once again must stress that, when dealing with copyright, we don't take a "leave things as they are" approach. Swarm^Talk 22:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

If they are for-sure copyright violations, shouldn't they be zapped immediately? I said BLP overrides most anything in wikipedia. One thing that overrides BLP is copyright violation. Are all the images copyvios, or just the 4 listed at the top of the section? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

They are not copyright violations as such, they are copyrighted images which, it is argued, do not meet the fair use requirement of irreplaceability. That's not something that requires immediate deletion, and if the irreplaceability is contested, a FFD discussion might not be a bad idea.  Sandstein  22:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Any speedy deletion can be contested and the process never involves a regular deletion discussion. In this case, any one who disputes it simply can use {{di-replaceable fair use disputed}}. I'm under the impression that a 'copyvio' is copyrighted material that does not meet Wikipedia:Non-free content. The images meet the first criteria for unacceptable use, so they certainly would seem to qualify as copyvios. Of course, this can be argued against, as can anything, but there is already a procedure that the user was very clearly made aware of. They decided to appeal to the community instead. In response to Bugs, only the above four images are in question (a further two have also been nominated for non-free content reviews). Swarm^Talk 23:16, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

all speedies may be challenged, and they normally go to the appropriate XfD, in this case FfD. I do not consider bringing someone here merely because he challenged a speedy is a reasonable thing to do. DGG ( talk ) 02:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

With respect, I don't think you understand the situation fully, as your statement does not reflect the situation correctly. Also, while PRODs automatically go to an XfD when challenged, this is not the case with speedies. Challenging speedies is done with the {{hang on}} template and a statement or discussion on the talk page. It would only go to an XfD if there was no valid CSD. It is not normal, in policy or in practice, for contested speedies to go to an XfD. Past this, we're not even talking about a normal article, we're talking about copyrighted images, here, which are one of the most, if not the most important and sensitive matters in the entire project. Edit warring and attempting to prevent or postpone the deletion of copyright violations is not a light matter, though I suppose there are some who lack interest or don't care about such things. Swarm^Talk 03:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, this isn't the proper forum to discuss or dispute procedure and process. IQinn was blocked, nothing really else ANI can accomplish. Thanks. Swarm^Talk 03:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I highly doubt "historically relevant photo, to illustrate the subject of the article", to illustrate the subject of the article", "To illustrate the subject of the article", and "to illustrate the subject of the article" are enough to satisfy WP:NFCC#8 in my opinion. –MuZemike 06:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

User:TigreTiger blocked as a sockpuppet

I seem to recall this sort of strange, idiosyncratic and rapid-fire redirecting from the puppetmaster some time ago. I blocked him for edit warring, he cut loose with this bizarre, anti-American rant and I lowered the boom on him. Would someone with Twinkle please revert this user's edits and redirects? Back to my wikibreak, or so I dearly hope. Thanks, all. PMDrive1061 (talk) 07:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• He performed a shitload of page moves, too. I undid one, but because he edited the pages afterwards, the easy revert links aren't showing up.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
• What a mess! We now have, for examples, Rimachi Lake and Rimachi Lake (2) which used to be Lago Rimachi and Lake Rimachi. Clearly that wasn't improvement upon what was there before. Uncle G (talk) 12:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
  • They are the same man! Please merge! TTsecondary (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• I've been going through using a "rollback all" script. I'm doing anout 30 at a time so FireFox doesn't crash. Access Denied (400: Bad Request) 15:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Take care with that, see below.

  Thank you; he was creating massive amounts of one-sentence, unreferenced stubs on Portuguese towns a few days ago, and I had to break out an atlas to verify these places even existed. Although mass-creation of these isn't in and of itself a problem, doing it with no references was very disruptive. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:19, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

  At User:TigreTiger you didn't call em "very disruptive", not even "disruptive". And on that talk page, some users pointed out that it is fine to have stubs on towns. TTsecondary (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

  Well, at the time I thought you were actually a new user, and I was trying to be encouraging; however, you're almost certainly not, in which case you should know better. It's disruptive when you create a shitload of unreferenced, one sentence sub-stubs, and it's almost worse when you do that on subjects that are inherently notable, because they're harder to delete and we have to be sure they aren't hoaxes. I had to get out an atlas and verify the existence of every single one of those towns, because there were no references for any of them. Fortunately for you I love geography, and I have the patience to do that; most people would have gotten extremely frustrated very quickly. But because I thought you were a new user, I cut you some slack; understand the attitude shift? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

  In this case, should the master account Schwyz, be blocked? He claims to have left the project, but I see on his block log he was already blocked once, for sockpuppeteering, back in August. Seth Kellerman (talk) 21:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

  The SPI Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Schwyz reveals that he socked once during his block, but he's off his block for 2 months now, so I don't see how he can be blocked for "block evasion" at present. This looks like a technical mistake that needs to be corrected, as you indicate. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

  It does not. Only one person decided that User:TakakaCounty = User:Schwyz. But even if run by the same person, Schwyz was abandoned before. TTsecondary (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

  Actually, he was blocked for abusing multiple accounts, but again, his main account's block expired a week later. Typically a sockmaster would be blocked indefinitely, regardless of his claim that he has "retired". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

  Where was the abuse BY User:Schwyz? TTsecondary (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

  Now blocked indef. He hadn't edited since 30 August, but Bugs is right that the sockmaster account should be blocked until the user addresses the socking issue. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

  He did not edit since 13 August, see [[95]] - and he was never blocked during his active time. TTsecondary (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Note from TTsecondary

I would like to inform you about the following: This is a secondary account of User:TigreTiger. I know creating this is against the rules, but I think you can understand from the following why I do it. Also: I cannot edit my talk page, despite the fact that the box there says a means for appeal would be to do that.

NOTE: I WILL NOT USE THIS ACCOUNT (User:TTsecondary) FOR THINGS OTHER THAN TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS BY User:TigreTiger

First: User:TigreTiger is not User:Schwyz! I don't know what people see to think otherwise. Since I don't know on what the claim is based, I cannot defend/bring arguments to show otherwise. Anyway, I reviewed some of the Schwyz stuff and found Schwyz got never blocked during the time he edited. So even if User:TigreTiger = User:Schwyz, there is not block evasion or so. Anyway, if Wikipedia Admins want to have blocked TigreTiger indefinitely, because of his last edit on his talk, then this is fine.

I just want to tell you that running a revert script on all my edits can have bad side effects

Disambiguation, three example edits, not all these edits are marked with the prefix "Disambiguated"

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Caldas_da_Rainha&diff=prev&oldid=392908483
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Administrative_divisions_of_Portugal&diff=prev&oldid=392897230 - 36 dabs
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Castro_Verde_Municipality&diff=prev&oldid=392924822

Article duplication under variant names, when converting to English and to standard naming, I found this duplicate

• Lago_Rimachi -> Rimachi Lake
• Lake_Rimachi -> Rimachi Lake (2)

I had no time yet to go into the merge process. Now the name standardization on what is common for lakes in South America and WP:UE was reverted. Now it will be harder for others to spot that they are the same. The "(2)" marker was not best but I used it as intermediary solution until I would have found out which one to merge into the other. See "What a mess! We now have, for examples, Rimachi Lake and Rimachi Lake (2) which used to be Lago Rimachi and Lake Rimachi. Clearly that wasn't improvement upon what was there before. Uncle G (talk) 12:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)" - He seems to have no clue that they are the same.

There are people with good knowledge of geography and they are driven out of the project. Portugal geography is partly covered worse in en WP than in other WPs, apart from pt WP. There is little work only. Wikipedia will have a hard time to get experts editing in Wikipedia if they are badly administered by people that have no clue at all of the topic at hand AND are unfair.

Fixing typo, adding new dab target - new targets are needed for dab solver

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lagunillas&diff=prev&oldid=393741426

User:JaGa educated me about the dab solver tool, This is a great tool. But it only works if the undabbed target is on the dab page. So to have things on the dab page is really important.

Fixing a link to point to the district article linked to from the template. The other one in fact should have no district content.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wular_Lake&diff=prev&oldid=393801439 - undone by User:Access Denied.

applying naming convention

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lakes_of_Tibet - Lake Zabuye and Lake Paiku are against naming convention for Tibet. It should be Zabuye Lake, Paiku Lake

ONE DE-DISAMBIGUATION, already performed

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lake_Guatavita&diff=prev&oldid=393801436 - now again links to Cundinamarca.

I did disambiguation work on country subdivisions in Portugal and was just starting with lakes and rivers in South America. Since I know the naming schemes I can improve links like to Cundinamarca as a drive by product. I am also able to communicate in Spanish and Portuguese and I have seen lots of geographic names, so spotting Gocha and converting to Cocha (Quechua for lake/water) is easy for me (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huangacocha_Lake&diff=next&oldid=393737459). If you revert that you will just make WP containing more bad stuff again.

Just wanted to make you aware of possible problems, with running a revert script on all my edits.

I think, technically even if you block me forever for my last edit on my talk page, then - technically - you would not need to revert all edits? Would you? Imagine I had edited for 10 years and then you see one "rant" - block me forever and revert all via a script?

Also, can you please tell PMDrive1061 to respect 10min threshold on new articles, like on Tuma River? CSD A3 says so. At least the expanded version got deleted below 10min. And that is what he blocked me for in the first place - for adding the expanded version. He also did not even add a reference to Tuma River in his first post on my page about short articles.

His actions should be reviewed. He is too hardcore-right-wing. He reminded me on the Apache shooters in Iraq. He has the power (admin can delete pages, and block users) and uses his power. Wikileaks leaked war crime. And PMD is criminal too. If it was edit warring what I did, as he claimed, then he was a involved party - and used his admin rights to further his position. This is an abuse of admin rights.

NOTE(REPEAT): I WILL NOT USE THIS ACCOUNT (User:TTsecondary) FOR THINGS OTHER THAN TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS BY User:TigreTiger.

TTsecondary (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there a reason you posted this same rant to User talk:Newyorkbrad? Are you expecting him to be higher up on some sort of hierarchy that the rest of us are not aware of?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Your new account has been blocked. Your message is here for everyone to read. If you want to formally request unblock, do it on your talk page. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Oop. Just noticed your talk page is blocked as well. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Oriel36‎'s talk page

Resolved

 – History hidden by Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry. Arctic Night 15:21, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Oriel36‎ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user is already indefinitely blocked for soapboxing on article talk pages. They have now done the same basic thing with their user talk page, and they show no desire to ever edit here; the only thing they have done since they said that they 'weren't going to mention their research again on wikipedia', is make continual minor grammatical changes to their soapbox text on their talk page. Per WP:NOTSOAPBOX, I request that it be blanked and replaced with the {{indef}} tag, and their talk page privileges be revoked.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 10:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Looks like this has been addressed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Ip Trolls (again) at List of books portraying paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors

The quran is a non-fiction book portraying pedophilia the IP says (two ips, presumably the same asshole behind them). [96][97] suggest long semi-protection of the article. Bali ultimate (talk) 17:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Etc... [98]. Semi the talk page too. (In case anyone is wondering, there are no "portrayals of paedophilia or sexual abuse of children in the Koran.")Bali ultimate (talk) 17:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that for them to add it to the article is inappropriate in the face of clear disagreement, but the next thing to do in that case is take it to the talk page. You continuing to remove their doing so, rather than engaging with them and stating why you disagree, is just encouraging an edit war. You can't remove talk page comments just because you strongly disagree with them—if they're dead wrong, that'll be clearly reflected in the resulting discussion anyway. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I won't debate with some IP (probably a banned user) who's here to use binary articles like this to spread hate. I suppose we could include the Old Testament as another such book for "balance." Put down the wiki koolaid and be practical. Sheesh.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

If you think they're a sock of a banned user, sockpuppet investigation requests are thataway. But when you disagree with an edit enough to revert it, even when you strongly disagree, and the editor who made it asks to discuss it on the talk page, that's a reasonable request. You're not required to participate in that discussion, but reverting even the request to discuss it is not appropriate. That is the appropriate next step if your edit is disputed and reverted—take it to talk. And as to the edit conflict addition, I don't even like Kool Aid. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Bali here (for what it's worth). reasoned discussion is one thing, but the 'mohammed->pedophilia' thing has proven to be such an extremely fossilized polemic that anyone espousing it can safely be assumed to be immune to normal discursive practices. err... or in English: no one makes that claim if they've thought about it even a little bit, so people who do make that claim aren't interested in thinking about it. wp:AGF is a good thing, but it doesn't mean we give the benefit of the doubt to someone who walks into the room wearing cock-fighting spurs. --Ludwigs2 18:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

←This page is a real problem—in scope, in potential for vandalism and bias, in referencing, and (until recently) in its plethora of "abstracts" that seemed to be for titillation rather than information or education. It's buying into a pack of troubles putting the Koran on there; that would open the door to a much wider scope in a tit-for-tat. And there are the cultural sensitivities to think about, too. Semi-protection would be good if this goes on. Note that the page narrowly survived another RfD recently. Tony (talk) 03:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

What a dreadful article.--Scott Mac 03:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

well, maybe it's time to put it up for deletion. some of the included items are bizarre (Nausea has pedophiliac moments? not that I remember... Clockwork Orange features someone younger than 18 as the main character who has sex, but that hardly qualifies as pedophilia...). and technically speaking Romeo and Juliet belongs on the list - I think most scholars put Juliet at 12-14 years of age. I'll list it, and we can have the discussion anyway. --Ludwigs2 03:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

"This article presents a list of books in which an adult character feels a sexual attraction to or sexually abuses a person under the age of 18". This is nonsense for a start, as a definition of 'paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors' Firstly, 'feeling an attraction' isn't abusive, and secondly 'the age of 18' is hardly an universally-recognised age of consent. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of books portraying paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors was closed as no consensus. Corvus cornix_talk 05:01, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism

Resolved

 – No adminaction needed.

Hello, there is vandalism in this topic as I don't have Twinkle, I can't undo it.--NovaSkola (talk) 19:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FK_Ganja

Go to the article history. Click the date of the last good version. Click "Edit this page". Click "Save page." Anthony (talk) 19:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot.--NovaSkola (talk) 19:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget to fill in the comment line next time, please. It helps others a lot in following your actions. --PaterMcFly talk ^contribs 20:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Help fixing history

When fixing a case of mainspace squatting with the page Nimbus, I moved the page as I found it to Nimbus (technical festival) and started to create a disambig with the now free Nimbus page. It was only when I started to do so this that I thought to check the diffs to find that there originally been a disambig and had been overwritten by another editor. I tried reverting to the last relevant diff however my initial move and attempt to create a disambig meant I cannot move things back as they should be. I copied and pasted the earlier version to the Nimbus page and the pages now look okay except that the edit history of the page is divorced from the page. Can an admin please delete the current Nimbus page, revert Nimbus (technical festival) to the point when it was a disambig (this diff) and move the page back to the empty Nimbus page. Thanks and sorry about creating more work for everybody. KTo288 (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• Good grief! Have you read Nimbus (technical festival)? That article needs some serious attention. And you need to fix some interlanguage links, too. Uncle G (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
  • "Foes with lightning quick reaction and blade sharp wits danced on the dais of the bedlam"? Britannica must be kicking themselves they missed that one. – iridescent 21:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
    • To stay on the safe side, should Britannica rename itself Britain-and-Ireland-ica?←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
    • I've rendered the introduction into a basically intelligible (and totally unreferenced) paragraph - I hope this doesn't give the article an air of undeserved authenticity. At best this is a student faire with an article written by the world's most enthusiastic person. But some of it is so bizarre, could it be a machine-generated hoax? 87.112.148.166 (talk) 22:22, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
      • No. But there's a lot of bad content there. (The article's writing style resembles that of the newsletter article, notice.) Well done for that cleanup. There's a lot more of it needed. (Notice the random Yoko Ono quotation, for example.) I'm about to tackle Category:Student infobox templates. … Uncle G (talk) 22:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Stephen Donald

Large amounts of vandalism from a wide selection of different people (mostly IPs) at Stephen Donald due to a high profile national sporting reverse. Some kind of temporary protection may be useful. (The vandalism itself is still being reverted as we go along.) It's also a BLP of course. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks to Uncle G this has now been sorted out. (I maybe should've requested it earlier, but wasn't sure how bad the situation needed to be.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• Some people just don't seem to know where to write n:Australia beats New Zealand 26-24 in 2010 Bledisloe Cup fourth test. Uncle G (talk) 00:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Inflammatory edits

Please review this, and do whatever is appropriate. I'm making no more comment since it mentions me.--Scott Mac 00:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• Removed the trolling part; if they put it back I'll protect. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Ah, fine. I see now he was quoting Mickmacknee. Oh, well. Maybe I should just have ignored it.--Scott Mac 00:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Kudpung99 removing content w/out explanation

Kudpung99 (talk · contribs)

User:Kudpung99 created his/her account on October 21, 2010. Since that time, s/he has made scores of edits to various wikiarticles relating to various concert venues, mainly in North America. There are two issues for which I seek guidance:

1. I am surprised that the system permitted the creation of this account since there already exits User:Kudpung. It would have seemed to have violated WP:U, especially as that policy relates to similar usernames. I would have thought that to create this account, a request would have had to have been made at WP:ACC. Moreover, User:Kudpung has had to disassociate himself from this new account by placing a notice at the top of his userpage indicating that this new account is not a sock of User:Kudpung, nor connected in any other way.
2. As mentioned above, User:Kudpung99 has made scores of edits to wikiarticles relating to concert venues. Many of them remove significant tracts of content without explanation. S/he has been warned about this (see here). S/he blanked the page of that warning, which, as per WP:OWNTALK, one may construe to mean that the notice has been read and understood by the user. A week later, s/he was gently warned to use edit summaries (see here), and again blanked the page. Tonight, s/he was, again, specifically warned about removing content from pages without explaining the deletion (see here). While s/he has not edited since that warning, perhaps having signed off for the night, nonetheless I have, so far, reverted 15 of these content deletions (see here), with scores more of his/her contribs still to review.

In summary, s/he does not respond to postings to his/her talk page and will not use edit summaries explaining the deletions of large tracts of content from wikiarticles relating to concert venues. Suggestions? Thanks! — SpikeToronto 07:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• This user's editing patterns look suspiciously like those of now-blocked Shyguy1991 (talk · contribs). It may be worth opening a sockpuppet investigation. - Eureka Lott 08:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

To all Wikipedia Admistrators

Hello Administrators could you pleae block this wikipedia acocunt user Eaglestorm for being a mental cyber bullier and a orchestrater please, and also bullying me, the horrible person this user is. --Keating 1991Keating 1991 (talk) 06:59, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

See WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Whitmore_8621 Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Continued tendentious editing by User:Communicat despite warnings and blocks

Communicat (talk · contribs) has a long history of tendentious editing which is forming a significant barrier to progressing articles. Admin User:Georgewilliamherbert has previously looked into this in August and gave Communicat a stern warning on 25 August for 'fringe POV-pushing' (see also Talk:World War II/Archive 41#Communicat and fringe-POV pushing and the subsequent discussion) which was followed by two blocks for uncivil comments over the next few weeks. In short, Communicat has a tendency to want to add information which is not correct in articles (even when the sources they provide demonstrate this to be wrong) and is pushing a fringe source which has repeatedly been found to be unreliable and is edit warring when other editors try to remove the dubious material they add. I will provide two recent examples that demonstrate that this behavior is continuing:

• Communicat has been seeking for some time to include a claim in the World War II article that the United States was in charge of the civil administration of North Korea in the years after World War II, despite the country being occupied by the Soviet Union. This began with a lengthy discussion on the article's talk page on 9 September (see Talk:World War II#Arbitrary break onwards) in which there was no support for including such a claim in the article. Despite this on 17 September they added material to the article which strongly implied that the US was administering all of Korea and added some further questionable claims about how the division of the country took place (diff) which I reverted. This lead to further discussion of the topic on the article talk page in which the sources Communicat was providing to support their view were eventually demonstrated to say exactly the opposite (Eg, they stated that the USSR did in fact administer North Korea after the war) - see the posts from 1 October onwards (particularly the posts by Hohum and myself on 3 October) and other sources which demonstrate that the USSR was administering North Korea were provided. On 10 October Communicat edited the article again but did not include this claim about Korea (diff) - I reverted this again as there was no consensus to include the changes and it contained several other dubious claims (this reversion was supported by the other editors active on the article's talk page).
• Despite this, on 24 October Communicat added what was pretty much the text on Korea which had been rejected in the World War II article to the Aftermath of World War II article (diffs), again implying that the US was administering all of Korea (along with lots of other changes). This was reverted by User:Edward321 (diffs), leading to an edit war between him and Communicat. The end result is that Communicat is still trying to include statement about the post-war administration of Korea which had no support from other editors and was proven to not be supported by the sources he or she was providing. I note that Communicat has a history of turning existing articles into POV forks (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Controversial command decisions, World War II.
• As the other example, Communicat has a long history of wanting to add dubious material sourced to someone named Stan Winer. Despite discussions at Talk:Strategic bombing during World War II#Industrial capacity and production, Talk:Strategic bombing during World War II#Link to www.truth-hertz.net, Talk:World War II/Archive 39#WW2 origins of Cold War, Talk:World War II/Archive 39#Link to www.truth-hertz.net, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 45#User: Communicat and Talk:History of South Africa#new sub-section: extra-parliamentary activities (and in passing in several other locations) which concluded that this author is not a reliable source, Communicate is still adding material referenced to self published works by this author to the History of South Africa article (diff: [99] on 17 October) and edit warring to restore it after it was removed by Edward321 (diffs: [100] (20 October) and [101] (21 October). Once again, he or she is ignoring a consensus which has arisen from extensive discussions and repeatedly adding dubious material.

As such, it appears that Communicat has not learned from their previous warnings and blocks, and is continuing to push POV claims using sources which have either been found to be unreliable or to not support their position. Responding to this clearly disruptive editing is wasting a lot of other editors' time and I ask that they be blocked by an uninvolved administrator. Thanks, Nick-D (talk) 10:06, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not understand what this issue is doing on this "incidents" notice board. This is a content dispute.

Responses to some points presented above:

1. Quote: "forming a significant barrier to progressing articles". – The article Aftermath of World War II is or was unsourced crap. It was received absolutely no attention for many years. I have advised Communicat to work on that article instead of trying to tweak the limited space in the WW II article. I cannot see how Communicat's interest in the aftermath article could be a significant barrier to the article's progress!
2. If Communicat's "text on Korea" had been rejected in the World War II, it was mainly because of the space constraints in the "aftermath" section of the WW II main article. There has been extensive discussion on the relative importance of topics on the talk page. There seems to be a consensus that the section needs to be pruned down, but no consensus on what is important.
3. Stan Winer may not be a reliable source for WW II, but he is an respected South African journalist and a reliable source on the History of South Africa and apartheid.
4. The issue of the "civil administration of North Korea" has been blown beyond all proportions. The sources seem to support Communicat's wording, but I do not know if the interpretations people are trying to make of this are correct.
5. The last edit by Comminicat in the WW II article was on October 10 after extensive discussion and preparation on the talk page. This was blindly reverted by Nick-D two hours later. He made one edit in all of September with similar results. If any conclusions can be drawn from the edit history, it is more indicative of edit warring and stonewalling by Nick-D.

It seems that the content issues are mingled with some kind personal antipathy against Communicat. These dissenting editors are now extending the dispute to new articles they have never before been involved with. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Communicat has a record of making edits that are not supported or even contradicted by the sources he cites.[102][103][104][105][106][107][108][109][110][111][112][113][114][115] Communicat's most recent attempt to argue against this was to dismiss the sources that contradicted him as the product of McCarthy Era censorship.[116] This is in spite of Communicat previously arguing that some of these sources were reliable [117][118] and ignores the actual publication dates of most of the sources.[119]

Communicat's most recent edits to Aftermath of World War II involved him deleting a large section of sourced material as well as adding material that is not supported by the source he lists.[120] The source does not mention Under-Secretary of State Joseph Grew [121] and does not say Churchill "virtually declared war" on the USSR in 1946.[122] Commincat's edits were also vague, so I clarified that Operation Dropshot was a contingency plan developed to counter of future attacks by the USSR if they occurred.[123] As the differences show, I clearly explained this in the edit summaries. Communicat blind reverted this and the rest of my edits.[124]

Communicat has also been trying against consensus to introduce a self-published fringe source, Stan Winer, into several articles for an extended period of time [125] [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131] [132] [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] [138] [139] [140] [141] [142] [143] [144] [145] [146] [147] [148] as well as repeatedly advocating Winer on several talk pages.[ [149] Communiucat is the only editor to think this source is reliable. That's not why I listed Communicat on the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard. I listed Communicat because he posted a (now deleted) file claiming to be to be the copyright holder, Stan Winer. The picture has since been reposted without Communicat making that claim. (Information provided by Petri Krohn leaves me with strong doubts that Winer is the actual copyright holder for the picture.)[150]) Even after all of this, Communicat continues to try to use Winer as a source.[151][152]

Communicat is often less than civil.[153] He has been blocked twice for lack of civility [154] and the statement that earned him his first block was left on his user page for 59 days[155], finally removing it 56 days after getting off the block he received for making the statement.[156] and three days after I reported it here.[157] Communicat has never apologized for his personal attacks.Edward321 (talk) 13:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

You have repeatedly been making accusations that Communicat is falsificating sources. When you have been proven wrong, you have chosen new forums to make the same unfounded allegations.

The "large section of sourced material" communicat removed from the aftermath article was left-over material from the WW II article I had moved there – right before I asked Communicat to work on the article. I see little harm done if it is removed from the lede section, especially if corresponding material is added to the relevant sections.

The last reference by Stan Winer you have listed above was added on 1 September 2010, to the article History of South Africa. As I said earlier, Winer is a published authority on that topic.

As to the copyright issue, I have expressed no doubt that Winer is the copyright owner of the picture of prime minister B. J. Vorster. The only place where it appears uncut, apart from Wikipedia, is this article by Winer.

Overall, you seem to be arguing that Wikipedia should reflect an Anglo-Saxon, Western, or at minimum, a Northern point-of-view. Things look very different from the Southern hemisphere. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I have read and understood this thread. I refute all false allegations by Edward321 and Nick-D who appear to be working in tandem against me. I will not respond further in this forum to their allegations. These and other matters are currently the subject of an application to Arbcom, which application was formally lodged by me shortly before the apparent retaliatory posting of this incident notice. Communicat (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:48, 26 October 2010 (UTC).

I don't think the crux of this issue is a content dispute. It's about disruptive behaviour. Communicat endlessly argues even when blatantly proven wrong, in the face of overwheling disagreement, when he has little to no support. He throws insults about bias and conspiracy, even accusing uninvolved administrator Georgewilliamherbert of bias when he tried to help. He has repeatedly pushed for Winers inclusion on WWII articles, and still refers to him on WWII talk pages, in the face of unanimous rejection by editors who voiced opinions there. Diffs to support this appear in earler posts in this thread, so I won't duplicate.

Communicat does, very occasionally, do something constructive, is suddenly polite, helpful, and engages in reasoned discussion. But it is sporadic and random. (Hohum ^@) 16:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I concur with Hohum on this. It's not about content. Sometimes, Communicat is pleasant and collegial, but mostly, he accuses everyone of belonging to a cabal that is out to get him. The simple truth of the matter is that Communicat typically is asserting a fringe position that no one else agrees is valid.

Contrary to what you assert, Petri Kohn, Communicat has quoted from sources that contradict him. He often cherry-picks quotes from various authors when the full context or other parts of the works contradict him explicitly. Two such instances are discussed at [158] and [159]. --Habap (talk) 19:21, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Petri, I am one of about 6 editors who has provided evidence that Communicat has added information that was not supported by the sources Communicat cited. Neither you nor Communicat have proven any of us wrong, or you would be able to provide differences supporting your claim. Of course, you should know that if you read the links I posted, just like you should know Communicat's last attempt at using Winer as a source occurred nearly two months after the date you list. I have never argued "that Wikipedia should reflect an Anglo-Saxon, Western, or at minimum, a Northern point-of-view" and am frankly baffled that you have claimed that I have done so. I don't even know what "a Northern point-of-view" is in terms of WWII. Finnish perhaps? Edward321 (talk) 05:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The issues here are already discussed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Edward321. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This Incident entry regards Communicat's behaviour, the Arb request is aimed at Edward321's, with no other involved party currently named by Communicat. (Hohum ^@) 17:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I can confirm that Arbcom has been requested to include Nick-D as an involved party. The relevant posting reads: Nick-D (like Edward321) has the peculiar and disruptive habit of reverting within minutes and without explanation material that I have laboriously contributed. He is apparently allergic to the courteous, customary and practical method of simply inserting a tag in submitted text, asking for correction, clarification, verification or whatever, with which I'd be perfectly willing to comply. Instead, he unilaterally deletes, undoes or reverts. I have repeatedly, consistently but unsuccessfuly attempted to engage Nick-D in thoughtful discussion, both on article talk page and on his user page. I repeat my request to have him joined as a third party in this application for arbitration, and I will then provide evidence of numerous previous attempts to resolve content disputes with him.

Interested parties may care to note that Nick-D earlier refused consent to open and decisive mediation in respect of his own conduct, including partisan editing and gross POV bias. Communicat (talk) 19:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that even a casual skim of Talk:World War II and its archives is enought to demstrate that I, and several other editors, have discussed Communicat's proposed changes with him or her in very great length over the last few months (including posting explanations when they're reverted). As noted in my original post, Communicat has generally ignored other editors' comments and keeps rehashing the same issues and repeating the same unacceptable behavior. Nick-D (talk) 21:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I have suggested some specific next steps that come from Wikipedia:Dispute resolution [160] as one or all of them may aid in resolving the current problems. --Habap (talk) 15:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Habap, I have no intention of withdrawing or otherwise backing down from my application to Arbcom, which is still under consideration by the committee.

Nick-D and interested parties, as regards Nick-D's recent posting above: no useful insight into the issues at stake can be gained by any "casual skim" of the current Talk:World War II "discussion" page or archived editions of the page as suggested by the filing party. Certain complex, important and perplexing matters were and still are at issue, and they also have a direct bearing on Nick-d's (and others') persistent violations of NPOV policy. Anyone sufficiently interested, and with the time and inclination to do so, should read the current and archived pages carefully, objectively and analytically, from top to bottom, before reaching any firm conclusions of their own. In particular, they should note my numerous, unsuccessful attempts to engage in constructive article content discussion with Nick-d, and his facetious replies or absence of replies thereto. It's all there in the record.

Suffice it to say that a perceptive reading of the discussions will prove that I have engaged in sustained discussion and serious attempts at negotiation with Nick-d (and others), with the sole intention of trying to find a solution to content problems, in order to help improve the article. My efforts have conformed fully with the letter and spirit of wiki's stated dispute avoidance policy. In response to which, Nick-D is now falsely and self-righteously alleging "Tendentious editing despite warnings and blocks". As Petri Krohn has correctly observed above, there has been no tendentious editing on my part. I would suggest that the wording of this ANI notice lodged Nick-d is itself tendentious.

Misleading reference is made by Nick-d to "warnings and blocks". I was blocked for 24 hours by an "uninvolved" intervening administrator for remarking that some particularly disruptive and bellicose discussants were behaving like animals. Later, I was blocked for 48 hours for remarking that a certain editor was "boring" because he kept reviving a certain dead-horse issue that had already been terminated. These blocks had nothing whatsoever to do with so-called tendentious editing. Indeed, Nick-D's own reasoning is tendentious, and his lodging of this notice is riddled with lies and distortions.

As for Edward321's claim that he is "one of about 6 editors who has provided evidence that Communicat has added information that was not supported by the sources Communicat cited": this party appears to have a slight problem with numeracy. He is one of only three editors who attempted to provide that so-called evidence, which in any event was not "added" to the article as falsely implied. In fact, Edward321 has himself submitted to the discussion page certain disruptive information that is contradicted directly by the sources he provides. All this too can be found in the discussion page, see my posting of 23:58, 25 October 2010 (UTC) Enough said. Communicat (talk) 21:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Communicat is correct that he did not add the incorrect info to World War II. On the other hand, has repeatedly proposed changes on the World War II talk page that are not supported or even contradicted by his sources (noted by Users Hohum,[161][162][163][164][165] Nick-D, [166][167][168] Edward321, [169] and Habap.[170][171][172]

Communicat has added posted information that is not supported or even contradicted by his sources to the article History of South Africa (Noted by Edward321)[173] Western Betrayal (noted by User 67.122.211.178)[174] and Aftermath of World War II (noted by Edward321)[175] Edward321 (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

These and other issues are currently the subject of an application by me for arbitration, to which the filing party of this ANI has now been included as a third party in tandem with Edward321. An evidence page will be opened if and when Arbcom accepts my application, which is still under consideration. I consider it inappropriate to comment further in this forum at this time, which does not mean I concur with the allegations made. Communicat (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Just to note. The arbitration seems very likely to be rejected (currently 1/5/0/1), and shouldn't distract from this notice. (Hohum ^@) 20:57, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

That's clearly the way it's going. Even if that unexpectedly and dramaticly changes, it would be best to keep this going as several members of Arbcom have said if they take it they will be investigating the actions of all interested parties. Edward321 (talk) 03:39, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

This post was archived, but I've relisted it in the hope that an uninvolved admin will look into the matter. The RFArb is not at all likely to be accepted and Communicat's disruptive conduct there illustrates this ongoing problem rather well. Nick-D (talk) 07:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

This is not being ignored, but it's not an easy or quick fixable situation either. Pls be patient for a bit; active discussions on moving forward in the community (Arbcom seems to be solidifying that they want us to handle it) should be happening starting Monday, I think. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks George. Nick-D (talk) 10:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

title move dispute for Jesus in Islam

Resolved

 – Content dispute, not an admin issue.  Sandstein  10:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

There is repeated request made about involvement of admin in the matter as the issue is related with application of Wiki policies on title selection.May pl. refer the discussion on talk page of article Jesus in Islam.

Issue:

Title change is requested from 'Jesus in Islam' to 'Isa( Jesus of Islam)' as as article is related of a person in Islam religion,where he is known by 1.8 billion people by the name "Isa" only,which is a personnel noun,cannot bre substited by any other name.

Differences;

Most reader argues only 'Most common name in English ', only and dont go in initial title selection guidelines reffered buy wiki policies.

The last comment by me in discussion is as follows;

"Here in the present case some body is just talking on "most common name" ,without going into definition of "recognisabilty' than 'Familirity, than "name' than 'common name' than 'Most common name' . Till you go step by step and just fight on 'most common name in English' and say that there is no consensus,it is very hard to digest. I want to request,Please do step by step analysis first ,with wiki policy in background and then come to some conclusion and the if opinion difference consensus will prevail. I have tried to do step by analysis in my last detailed reply #REDIRECT Talk:Jesus in Islam, please give your valuable comments on each step and if there is opinion difference we all are here to resolve"

Please interfere,give your comments on policy anlysis and suggest rermedy.--Md iet (talk) 08:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

We don't need to do a step-by-step analysis. Policy in this case is clear, and overrides any other external-to-Wikipedia issues you may have. Since Jesus is the most common name for this historical person/historical figure/historical myth (whatever term you prefer), Jesus is the name we are required to use. It's just that simple. As a simple comparison, the Wikipedia article for the city in Italy is called Florence, despite that fact that no one who lives there, or who has ever lived there, calls it that. Now, if you want to argue that Wikipedia policy on article names should be changed, there are places where you can do that. But unless you can show that "Isa" is a more common name in English articles of encyclopedic level (i.e., encyclopedias, scholarly journals, very high quality news sources, textbooks, etc.), then the article can't be moved. The only logic for moving the title would be if you were to show that Jesus shows up in encyclopedic, English sources less than 3 times as often as Isa; if you can't, all of your other (external-to-Wikipedia) arguments are moot.

In short, I think you're perhaps just not understanding the fact that Wikipedia operates based on a set of policies and guidelines, not all of which match people's common sense and/or local logic. In this case, what your sense/logic tells you about article titles doesn't match policy/guidelines. There is nothing wrong with this; but, in order for us all to be able to work together, we have to operate under consensus-based policies as much as possible. Otherwise, we'd never be able to move forward on anything but the least contentious of articles.

I hope this makes sense--no one is saying your ideas don't have merit in a general sense, just that within the confines of how we work on Wikipedia. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Having read through that talk page, all I can say is would you please drop it. You've been banging on about this move for months, and I don't see a single person there agreeing with you. You've been told several times that Wikipedia policy and guidelines (specifically Wikipedia:Consensus, Wikipedia:Article titles, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles)#Translation) support the current title, yet proceeded to move the page unilaterally (which was quickly reversed). There is a perfectly good redirect at Isa. the wub "?!" 10:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)