Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Incivility by Deacon Vorbis (again)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Deacon Vorbis seems to have been angered by my recent edits to Square root, which were attempting to implement the results of a recent RFC. I include below the back-and-forth on my talk page for a bit of context leading up to the extremely vulgar message at the end of the exchange. -- Beland (talk) 02:37, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

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Moved from User talk:Beland#Radicals (see history to verify diffs)

Please stop changing this. Just please. It doesn't need to be done. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:24, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deacon Vorbis: You participated in the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mathematics#Improving_rendering_of_radical_symbol, where consensus of the RFC was judged to be in favor of adopting the MOS:RADICAL text which says <math>...</math> style markup is to be used instead of {{radic}} style markup "whenever technically possible to do so", which currently excludes image captions. I have updated the MOS, and it is now time to implement that style preference in articles. I've started doing that on square root and intend to do so on all other affected articles. I'm sorry that the markup style you favored did not attain consensus, but it is important to the operation of the encyclopedia project that all editors respect consensus, whether or not we agree with the outcome. -- Beland (talk) 20:04, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Please stop making these changes and leave them for someone who has a better handle on math layout issues. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 23:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Please just stop. This doesn't need to be done at all. Find something actually productive. Please. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 23:50, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deacon Vorbis: Your preferences were taken into account in the above-referenced discussion, and consensus was to change markup to the opposite preference. Simply repeating the preference that did not carry the day is not an argument to stop implementing the proposal that was adopted by consensus. This repeated begging is starting to become harassment. I'm happy to let you or another volunteer implement the proposal if you wish; I have plenty of things I'd rather be spending my time on. I'll be doing the implementation work myself until I see someone else start in on it. -- Beland (talk) 05:39, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:Beland#... (see history to verify diffs)

You know what, do whatever the fuck you want, you fucking asshole. I fucking quit, and it's because of fucking assholes like you. I'm fucking tired of this shit. You don't know what the fuck you're doing, so you can take your goddamn bureaucratic MOS bullshit and shove it up your fucking ass. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 01:48, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

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Some of the reverts are discussed in open threads on Talk:Square root, but most of my changes have been accepted after fixed some style issues identified by Deacon Vorbis. It would have been more civil and productive, in my opinion, for them to simply fix those issues, but instead they seem to have been using those other problems as an excuse to revert my changes wholesale, sometimes reverting changes they didn't dispute. As noted in the long discussion of a previous complaint, Deacon Vorbis has a history of aggressive tactics, and has previously been blocked for a vulgar personal attack for which they refused to apologize.

Given this history, I feel Deacon Vorbis needs to improve their emotional maturity to the point where they can respect a group decision they disagree with, and interact in a productive and civil fashion with editors with whom they initially disagree. If they are willing to engage in some self-reflection, perhaps some sort of mentorship would be helpful. Failing that, something needs to be done to prevent this user from perpetuating a hostile editing environment and scaring away other volunteers from the project. -- Beland (talk) 02:37, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Ah, Deacon Vorbis has changed their user pages to declare that they have retired from Wikipedia. Perhaps that problem solved itself, assuming that decision sticks. -- Beland (talk) 02:45, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah maybe you should have noticed that before you opened this? Christ. --JBL (talk) 02:50, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Good work! You have forced some silly math markup into an article and driven off a productive editor. MOS:RADICAL explicitly says "...the {{radic}} method should be used in image captions" and the advice you were given (to leave math markup to others) was good. Johnuniq (talk) 02:54, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

That's certainly a much more civil and productive response. But the advice to leave math markup to others makes me a bit uncomfortable. We can't expect to recruit new editors to work on that sort of thing if we expect everyone who does so to have a perfect command of all of Wikipedia's quirks. Even math professors and people who are masters of LaTeX will have a learning curve and need some friendly corrections and pointers. If all the math editors are prickly at the slightest violation of some arcane standard, it seems likely the population will dwindle and quality will suffer. The community actually believes in this principle strongly enough that it's a behavior guideline — Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers. -- Beland (talk) 07:33, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Deacon started editing Wikipedia twelve years after you. He did not "bite the newcomer". --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:42, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm apparently considered enough of a newcomer to math markup on Wikipedia that I've been discouraged by both Deacon Vorbis and Johnuniq from using it or even trying to learn more about it. Which is a bit sad, given that unlike most editors I've been reading LaTeX-marked-up computer science and math documents for decades. -- Beland (talk) 01:47, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

So ... you agree that your previous whine about "biting a newcomer" was complete bullshit, then, and you retract it and apologize for wasting time with this crap? --JBL (talk) 13:56, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I never claimed to be a newcomer to Wikipedia; that would be silly when everyone can see that I'm not. I am worried that when actual newcomers to the site encounter behavior like Deacon Vorbis occasionally exhibited over the years they were here, the new folks will give up editing right away. I do think we need to use the same principles (to the degree they apply) with veteran editors, particularly when they move into an area of editing that is new to them. And I certainly felt like I was being treated as a newbie to math markup specifically (whether justified or not) while I was having my head bitten off. As a community, I think we actually need to spend a lot more time on efforts to improve civility and welcomingness, as our retention numbers are on the decline and our geographic, ethnicity, and gender demographics are heavily skewed, and that's why I have started raising behavior like this rather than just ignoring it. As for this particular complaint, the powers-that-be can feel free to close this thread; trying to avoid spending time on an already-resolved issue is why I posted that this problem seems to be solved as soon as I noticed that Deacon Vorbis had retired, though as I seldom participate in these discussions I was not sure if it was standard WP:AN/I practice to enforce that retirement for some period or issue an admonishment in such circumstances. When I read his message on my talk page, I thought he was quitting the radical markup dispute; it never occurred to me that a veteran editor who is so headstrong and stubborn would quit the whole project over such a trivial matter. Finally, JBL, In the future, if you would like serious answers to your questions, I ask that you please refrain from vulgarities and personal insults as you have used above and below. I welcome disagreement and personal criticism here, but that sort of incivility simply contributes to the toxic atmosphere we're trying to remedy. -- Beland (talk) 18:20, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not interested in "serious answers to my questions", I am interested in you engaging in some self-reflection and (ideally) fixing the problems with your behavior. This dispute has driven exactly one productive editor away from WP, and you're the one who has done the driving. --JBL (talk) 20:46, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

OK...well, I very much tried to be civil and reasonable, and follow the established dispute resolution process on the site, and avoided responding in kind to what I perceived as Deacon Vorbis' attempts to bully me into doing what he wanted even though I (and later, a consensus of editors) disagreed that it was the right thing to do. I don't think future editors who have similar ideas for improvement should face the same hostility, even if I personally disagree with them. If someone else responds to the implementation of an RFC they opposed by having a temper tantrum and storming off, I kinda have to feel like that's on them. It violates the social norms expected of editors here, namely to remain civil, to respect consensus, and to work with people who have different perspectives to build on each others' contributions. As quoted above, after the RFC closed I tried to explain that to Deacon Vorbis in the politest way that I could, even throwing in an "I'm sorry" in the hopes it might heal hurt feelings. We can't abrogate the results of RFCs just because one editor is annoyed at the outcome; that would destroy the project's ability to make decisions and seriously reduce productivity. And I disagree that the work of only one editor was in the balance here. How many productive editors did Deacon Vorbis drive away from STEM articles or Wikipedia in general in their time here, and how many more would they have driven away had they not retired? -- Beland (talk) 23:13, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I noticed that Deacon also dropped an f-bomb while removing Beland's ANI notice (see Deacon's talk page history). Will that result in any action even if he's retired or...? 45.251.33.20 (talk) 06:04, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Using the f-word is fucking allowed on this fucking site, and does not justify fucking sanctions. Though gratuitous usage is discouraged. power~enwiki (π, ν) 06:07, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) The F-bomb should be reserved for necessary emphasis (from Punch). Narky Blert (talk) 08:57, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@Beland: I don't think this should have been brought here. And I'll be very unhappy if we end up losing a good editor because of it. And in the grand scheme of things why should anyone really care about a few "fucks"? Paul August ☎ 17:35, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

And your "problem solved" indicates clearly to me that you value "winning" over the good of the encyclopedia. Paul August ☎ 17:46, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Fucks are fine but this isn't. AIRcorn (talk) 22:32, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

The "problem" I want to "solve" is editors creating a toxic atmosphere that makes it difficult to recruit and retain new volunteers. If I "lose" an RFC or a deletion discussion or whatever, I respect the outcome and I don't go around begging other editors not to implement the group's decision. It would have been a much better "win" for Wikipedia if Deacon Vorbis had been able to emotionally cope with being on the "losing" side of the RFC, had learned how to work more productively with other editors rather than telling them to fuck off, and had stuck around to continue making useful contributions, even if that means we are sometimes on opposite sides of questions like this one. -- Beland (talk) 01:47, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

You are not a newcomer, you are a longstanding editor and also, apparently, an officious git. It would have been a better "win" for you to drop the stick instead of repeatedly pushing. --JBL (talk) 13:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@Beland: Yes, we all want to solve the problem of "editors creating a toxic atmosphere that makes it difficult to recruit and retain new volunteers". But goading DV into a rage and causing him to leave does not solve that problem, or even begin to. The only problem that your "problem solved" could be referring to as being solved—apparently to your satisfaction—is the "problem" of the continued presence of DV here, and thereby your "winning" this ANI. Paul August ☎ 14:51, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Paul August, do you have any evidence to back up your accusation of goading? Admins should choose their words carefully, especially when commenting on a noticeboard discussion. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 18:25, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Beland, why didn't you simply listen when you were told "This doesn't need to be done at all.", even adding a "Please."?? - I'd tell you the same. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:48, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Because we had just gone through an RFC, and consensus was that this markup should be changed. One editor doesn't get to veto a consensus style decision after everyone has already listened to their concerns and didn't agree with them. -- Beland (talk) 01:47, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I have no time to dig into math mark-up, but see a difference between "should be changed" and "needs to be changed". - We just had a discussion to delete a certain template. Does it need to be changed? No. - A user threatened to leave Wikipedia if it's removed. So I don't remove it - in articles they created. I cherish editor retention, more than mark-up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:20, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

      Yes, this, 1000 times. --JBL (talk) 13:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

      • Sorry, but no. We have all had to swallow a consensus here that goes against us. To suggest that we should ignore it because one editor threatens to leave is a terrible idea and goes against the whole consensus approach. AIRcorn (talk) 22:20, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
• It's unfortunate to have lost a productive editor in DV. At the same time, Beland was not unjustified in their markup edits (the RfC was closed as there is consensus that using <math>...</math> tags to render expressions containing radicals is superior to the old {{radic}} option by L235) and the labeling of another editor as a fucking asshole is never appropriate. An unpleasant situation and net loss all around. — MarkH₂₁^talk 03:00, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

  +1, my thoughts exactly. FWIW I'm on Windows using Chrome, which is the most popular configuration out there, and I don't see a gap between the lines when radic is used, and I think the math markup is much uglier, more difficult to read, and not searchable. Nevertheless, there was an RFC about this, which had a result, and while I personally think it was the wrong result, I think Beland was properly implementing that result (and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that unless I missed it?).

  I also think DV was taking this math dispute much too seriously. These are stressful times and there's a lot of that going around. DV's retirement is a loss to the project, and I hope it's temporary, and that they don't take these markup disputes so seriously when they return. The "fucking assholes like you" comment was out of line, and neither Beland nor any other editor should have to put up with being on the receiving end of a message like that (particularly not for properly implementing an RFC result, assuming that is not in dispute). At the same time, the "fuck-off-I-quit goodbye message" is so common, for understandable reasons (we're all human), and so we always let that kind of venting slide, and we should let is slide here, too.

  I don't fault Beland for failing to notice DV's retirement template before posting this, as the two events happened only an hour apart. I do wonder, though, whether there's any point to this thread remaining open at this time. Lev!vich 03:46, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

  I also think DV was taking this math dispute much too seriously. This is also true. --JBL (talk) 13:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with MarkH21 and Levivich: there was a consensus for the change, Beland was justified in making the changes, calling someone a “fucking asshole” is never appropriate, and DV was obviously taking this dispute too seriously. *But* that doesn’t mean that Beland shouldn’t have handled the dispute very differently. He didn’t have to insist so vigoursly. He could have temporized, he could have even just paused. He certainly didn’t need to bring this dispute—over what amounts to, in the grand scheme of things, a trivial math formatting issue and an the overreaction of a clearly stressed and extremely productive editor—to ANI. Paul August ☎ 15:22, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

So where do you go if someone calls you a fucking arsehole if not ANI? AIRcorn (talk) 22:25, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Nowhere. ANI is for chronic and urgent problems. Is it a "chronic" or "urgent" problem that someone called someone a fucking asshole, once, right before retiring? I have a hard time thinking of problems less urgent (granted, "math markup using wrong symbols" makes the list). While it's a transgression, not every transgression requires a response. I don't think "fuck off drama quits" require a response, generally speaking. Lev!vich 22:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Does there always have to be a place to go? Paul August ☎ 22:45, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't have taken this here if I had known it was I-quit-Wikipedia drama, and this certainly wasn't a one-time offense. What about cases where the editor in question is not leaving the site? Is there a better forum for raising problems of civility? -- Beland (talk) 04:02, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Might I suggest a diary or perhaps a feelings journal? Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 04:12, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

@Beland: You are correct, this was not a one time offense. But I wouldn't characterize it as chronic either, and ANI should be something of a last resort. If you think the incivility is so bad that it can't be ignored (sticks and stones? turn the other cheek?), and needs to be addressed, then the first resort ought to be with the editor in question: nonconfrontationally, without animus, and with goodwill, patience and understanding. This will mean setting aside personal slights, eliminating any desire to "get back", and considering only what's best for the encyclopedia. Granted this may not always be easy but—if done sincerely and well—it can often work. Paul August ☎ 12:47, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

If I had an editor hurling obscenities at me, my first step would not be to address it with them one-on-one. I might simply choose to ignore the situation, but I am absolutely not going to try to talk things out with someone who clearly isn't willing to have a civil conversation. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

@Lepricavark: Well, while ignoring will often be the best thing, an outburst like this does not necessarily mean that the editor won't be willing (perhaps when they cooled down) to discuss things more civilly. Especially if they are approached in the right way. Paul August ☎ 17:40, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

It's really not up to the person on the receiving end of fuck you to approach the person giving the fuck you "in the right way". To put the burden on the recipient to handle it correctly is a form of victim-blaming. I disagree that people who are being verbally abused should first try to work things out on the abuser's talk page. We should never require, or even encourage, that. I think "ignore" would have been a better choice than "ANI" in this particular case, but "ANI" is still a justified choice. "Discuss on their talk page first" is a good choice for many situations, but it's not a justifiable expectation for responding to personal attacks. Lev!vich 18:05, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Well said. The responses of several editors in this thread have been nothing but bizarre. We have at least one admin levelling accusations of 'civil trouble-making' on the OP's part without providing any evidence of misconduct. And we have the spurious, evidence-free assertion that Beland is somehow responsible for DV's retirement. No, if Deacon Vorbis cannot cope with the results of the RfC and chooses to leave, that's a Deacon Vorbis problem. Blaming the OP is laughable and ridiculous. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

You're a fucking arsehole is not borderline incivility but a blatant personal attack. And it is not an isolated incident. Sure it could be ignored, maybe should have due to the retirement (although I have been around long enough to take a retired banner with a grain of salt), but there is certainly a case for bringing it here. It doesn't deserve the response it received from some editors that should know better and the patronising comment from Dumuzid is most definitely out of line. AIRcorn (talk) 22:48, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Happy to be of service. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 22:59, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

There is an unfortunate habit at ANI of focusing on bad words and ignoring the underlying cause. In this case, Beland was single-handedly (no support that I can see) trying to introduce truly ghastly markup into Square root based on a misreading of MOS:RADICAL. Like many civil trouble-makers, Beland pushed the issue and DV blew up. Now we are asked to piously assess the appropriate punishment for the bad words without any concern about the issue. It sucks. Johnuniq (talk) 23:05, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

You realize Beland linked to the RfC that was held about this? Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mathematics#Improving_rendering_of_radical_symbol. Mr rnddude (talk) 23:12, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Are you saying that Beland's actions are not supported by the recent RfC linked at the beginning of this thread? I'm a little confused by the details, but I trust that you aren't accusing Beland of being a trouble-maker simply for carrying out the results of an RfC. What am I missing here? LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:14, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I am rather confused and concerned by this comment as well. PackMecEng (talk) 23:24, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm still open to sanctions on Deacon Vorbis, since it's unclear he understands how bad his behavior was. I noticed that he has retired several times before during ANI threads, very likely in order to evade sanctions, so by this point it does look a lot like a ploy and it's unlikely he's sincere about retiring. Deacon Vorbis engaged in egregious use of offensive and intimidating language in order to prevent the implementation of an RfC consensus, and since he hasn't apologized for this extremely disruptive and uncollegial behavior, it's likely to be repeated unless preventative sanctions are introduced. Krow750 (talk) 02:57, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Update: Deacon Vorbis posted a message on his talk page saying that he would be taking an indefinite break from editing. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Link corrections by User:0blcsp

0blcsp (talk · contribs) has been making edits recently that include what he calls in the edit summary "link corrections". What he means is replacing [[target|something else that redirects to that target]] by [[something else that redirects to that target]], like the example I posted on their talkpage: [[Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic|Russian SFSR]] to [[Russian SFSR]]. Am I correct that this should not be done? Debresser (talk) 21:00, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Is it possible that they're simplifying code via the source editor? It seems like they're reducing the article's byte size from edits generated by the visual editor. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:53, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

(non admin comment) Without looking into those edits in detail, the relevant guideline is WP:NOTBROKEN. As a DABfixer, I see many links which could be "improved". I mostly ignore them, both because (a) if it works, don't fix it, and (b) life's too short. I try only to change otherwise-good links if the replacement would be more intuitive and therefore more helpful to readers. I would never alter something like [[Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic|Russian SFSR]] or [[Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic|RSFSR]] - the mouseover might save a click for any reader who knows the longer name. Narky Blert (talk) 22:08, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@Narky Blert This is more than WP:NOTBROKE, the complete target is actually useful, as you write too. Debresser (talk) 12:18, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@Tenryuu: That is well possible. Do you mean to say that Wikipedia:VisualEditor is doing this on its own? That seems like something that should not happen. I'll alert them to this post. Debresser (talk) 12:16, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Debresser, VisualEditor, from what I heard, adds some extraneous data to elements like tables; it's not perfectly optimised (and technically is still a "beta" feature). What could have happened is that an editor may have used the VisualEditor to create a link (e.g., Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic) before changing the link text to "Russian SFSR". To my knowledge, that would generate [[Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic|Russian SFSR]]. Unless the redirect Russian SFSR doesn't target the original link, I find it to be a harmless change. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:18, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

0blcsp continues with these disruptive edits.[1][2][3] He is unresponsive on his talkpage, and has not deigned it necessary to post in this threat, even though he was informed.[4] I propose a block till such time as he acknowledges that he should not make such edits. Debresser (talk) 12:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Since he still continues, and admins here have not taking measures, I have reverted some of his latest edits which contained the problematic removal of useful link targets. Debresser (talk) 16:46, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Overtly racist comment by IP 98.228.253.244

I'd like to report an overtly racist comment by IP 98.228.253.244 at Talk:The_Culture_of_Critique_series. I took it upon myself to remove the comment. Here's the diff: [[5]] Thanks y'all. Generalrelative (talk) 03:10, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Generalrelative, hello, thank you for reporting this. However, this case does not need administrator action, just place a warning using {{uw-npa1}}. If you would like to request oversight, you can. However, I doubt that it will as I do not think it meets the policy for suppression. Thanks! (Non-administrator comment) Heart ^(talk) 04:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Generalrelative, please do not take HeartGlow30797's advice here, you did the right thing by reporting this. There is no need at all to warn editors not to post racist slurs on this website, that's a thing you're expected to know, and we're not here to coddle racists. The IP has been blocked for six months. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:09, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Possibly related further reading: WP:NORACISTS. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 02:43, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

"Jewish" isn't a slur... Argento Surfer (talk) 20:44, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

"slur: an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo". The comment is clearly an antisemitic slur. And maybe re-evaluate the life choices that led you to provide inane pedantry in defense of racist trolling! --JBL (talk) 22:02, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The IP was clearly not here to contribute and the comment was inappropriate, but saying Jewish is a slur reminded me of the time Michael Scott said Hispanic had "certain connotations". Argento Surfer (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

No one said "Jewish" is a slur, the entire comment by the IP is the racist slur. Once again, you should reconsider whatever life choices have led here. --JBL (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

In any case the IP is now blocked for 6 months by AmandaNP, and was warned a few times, and edits reverted. Perhaps 6 months is longer than required, but no more action is required from this report. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Commons admin needed

It looks like we had a serial election maps hoaxer active earlier this year, User:The Empire of History. See this revision of their talk page for some of what got caught earlier. Basically, their M.O. is to create hoax maps of election articles, showing incorrect results (note, the site they seem to be making these on, US Election Atlas, does use nonstandard red/blue alignment for the US major political parties, so it's not just a color inversion thing). Rather, these results are fabricated. For instance, compare File:Georgia 2016, U.S. Election Atlas.png to the correct File:Georgia Presidential Election Results 2016.svg. I've been prodding these as I've found them, but some, including the Georgia one mentioned above, have apparently found their way onto Commons. Obviously, these need deleted ASAP as hoaxes, but it's fairly late where I am, and I don't have the alertness to go through the whole Commons deletion request bit for the Commons one, as I'm not particularly familiar with the Common setup. It's possible some of these are correct, so they'll all need checking, but every single one of the ones I've looked at so far is so error-ridden that it's either a hoax, made up by the user, or just poorly done. I can't stay up all night cleaning this up, so hopefully someone else can take a look, too. Hog Farm _Bacon 04:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

The place to report this is Commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:10, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Hog Farm, I have batch nominated the images on commons (almost 450!) for deletion, see c:Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_uploaded_by_The_Empire_of_History (scroll down to the second nomination). I did not conduct an exhaustive search, but given my experience with this particular editor (creating fictional/alt-history election maps), I have little faith that any are worth keeping. I have also blocked The Empire of History as NOTHERE since they've apparently continued playing their history games in their sandbox since I last deleted it...you can't tell from xtools, but they have made 3600 edits, and over half of those are in the deleted sandbox history. GeneralNotability (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, that appears to have caught most of them. I've been hunting down the last few survivors. They were quite ... prolific ... Hog Farm _Bacon 20:55, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Maybe want to speedy or bulk-XFD the ones here instead of PROD? That will get it done either "faster" or "with centralized record", so we can remember to revisit in a few days and check if any got missed. Same goes for after the suite of commons files get deleted. DMacks (talk) 03:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I'll deal with this tomorrow if no one gets to it by then. --Minorax (talk) 11:23, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Admin intervention needed on the talk page of the trade war article

• China–United States trade war (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Flaughtin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In relation to thhe exchanges here and here, I am filing this request to ask for administrative intervention in relation to the relevant debates on the talk page of the China-United States trade war article (subsections 17, 19-22) which unfortunately has yet to happen. An involved editor has opened an RFC and I have raised the objection (on multiple occassions) that that should happen (if at all) only after an administrator has went through and made remarks on the aforementioned debates so that the RFC issue can be resolved in a manner that satisfies all the involved parties. Flaughtin (talk) 07:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• I suggest a WP:BOOMERANG. After being warned previously about battleground behavior, User:Flaughtin is now trying to derail an RFC originally started by User:Chess and then by me, first by removing the section [6][7] and then by asking other editors not to comment[8]. For context, see two previous ANI discussions: 1 2. In both discussions, sanctions on Flaughtin were proposed, but the discussions were archived before anything was done.

I would really appreciate help resolving this dispute. It feels like every attempt to find resolution gets derailed by Flaughtin's disruptive behavior. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:14, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Your assertion that I'm trying to derail an RFC is nonsensical. I never said I'm against having an RFC. What I am against is your RFCs which I removed because they were fundamentally malformed. (it should be pointed out that I have let your latest malformed RFC stand in the interest of desisting from any further edit warring) What I am saying is that if we are going to have an RFC then it has to be done correctly. You just don't like what I am doing because you just want to cut the corners. I mean I really hate to be uncivil but for fuck's sake the guy asked you what your RFC would be about and you just went ahead and initiated it without his prior input; the least you could have done is waited for him to respond before starting your RFC. It's a pretty simple request I'm making and one that already has external support: given the complexity of the issues, an administrator should look at what's going on, and if there is consensus over how how the RFC issues should be dealt with, then that will be the basis of further action. Nothing extreme about it unless of course you are in a rush to ram through material that a plurality of editors on the talk page have already extensively objected to. Flaughtin (talk) 08:55, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Those discussions look to be a mess. I think the chances of getting an editor to wade through them all and determine if there is consensus is probably slim. It would likely be better to use an RfC to get wider input to try and seek consensus without such a messy discussion. Of course it would be better if all of you could at least come to some consensus on a reasonable RfC before hand. If you already have 6 options and evidently need more that doesn't seem particularly reasonable. Is it really that hard for you all to compromise and discuss things so you can agree on something that doesn't require more than 6 options? Nil Einne (talk) 15:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• You keep asking for an admin to intervene to settle a content dispute. But that's not what admins are for. That's what RFCs are for. If other editors are attempting to settle the issue and you keep deleting the RFC, undermining it, and attacking other editors, then the only likely admin action is going to be removing you from the topic so that the editors who are actually interested in discussing the issue can settle it without your disruption. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 23:30, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

"That's what RFCs are for." I am aware of that which is why I said at the outset that I'm not against having an RFC. I'm not undermining the RFC, I'm correcting for its defects. (Administrators are welcomed to correct me if I've misunderstood what the defects are) Did you even read what I wrote? Flaughtin (talk) 02:38, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• I agree with you that admin intervention is needed here. It will probably end with you being topic-banned from this area. You cannot have several different options in an RfC. The guidance for RfCs at WP:RFCBRIEF explicitly gives as an example an RfC question with six different options. The RfC with your additional options added has six different versions. At a certain point you need to coalesce the issues here into a succint set of questions. That is what I tried to do and that's what Mx. Granger is also currently trying to do. It is true that the options won't be able to encompass all the possible viewpoints and some possibilities won't be included. But that's what needs to happen in order to achieve consensus. We need to compromise in order to get stuff done here and that involves making difficult decisions and cutting down the number of options to make an effective RfC. Chess (talk) (please use {{ping|Chess}} on reply) 02:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

I've given my explanation for my inclusion of the other options here. That is the lowest number of options for the RFC due to the length of the related exchanges and the malformed nature of the initial RFC. Flaughtin (talk) 02:38, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• I strongly suggest an admin reviews Flaughtin's's behavior which in my view possibly has had the effect of disrupting attempts to gain consensus, especially after winning an edit war. Behavior includes use of excessive bludgeoning of discussions. Very serious is removal of others contributions from talk pages and unilateral ending of two good faith RFCs which resulted in disruption of good faith attempts to resolve the dispute, the second one of which [9] I choose to re-instate [10]. Flaughtin's additions of three additional versions to the RFC has been commented above as excessive and unhelplful; though a "None of above" may have merit. There seems possibilities Flaughtin will continue to disrupt moves to consensus and possibly goad another editor into getting blocked. It is surely necessary to show such behaviors will be challenged by admins, and perhaps a case for asking Arbom committee candidates about their views on how to handle. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 02:55, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Your assertion that I'm disrupting consensus is nonsensical when the consensus was (and still is) for a version of a text tat I preferred, and particularly so when the offending editor who did disrupt the consensus (see this) has had an established history of edit warring. (See this and this) As I've stated on the archived ANI I will going forward self-correct if administrators have determined that I was in the wrong when I removed the initial RFC - adminis and non-admins will note that I haven't removed your reinstatement of the RFC. Please do not make such comments again on things you are unsure of (or just know nothing about). Flaughtin (talk) 02:38, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Flaughtin‎: Given you've raised this ANI and given my comment above it is not wrong though probably not best practice to "de-clutter" your talk page [11] at this time as peoples may think there are things you do not want them to see. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 00:08, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

My page, my rights. I have nothing to hide so when you say that there are things I may not want people to see it doesn't apply to me. If there's something somebody wants clarification for, they are welcomed to ask. Flaughtin (talk) 02:38, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• This is the third time the China–United States trade war issue has ended up at ANI, and I hope we can avoid ending up here again. I'd appreciate it if administrators could weigh in on User:Flaughtin's behavior based on this thread and the other two (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1044#Issue at China–United States trade war, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1050#User Thucydides411). —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The Image Editor making mass undiscussed changes to bio infobox images/edit warring

The Image Editor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor has been making unilateral changes to infobox images (usually of people) without discussion for months. They usually leave edit summaries claiming their preferred images are "better" or "more recent". They have a habit of removing paintings in favor of photographs, and replacing black-and-white photos with color ones. They also have a tendency to edit-war when reverted. They have been warned many times—by GoodDay, myself, and Sundayclose—and have agreed to seek consensus before making these changes. They've been reverted by many other editors. While they have opened some talk page discussions after being told to do so, they've also continued making unilateral changes, which are highly disruptive. By my count, they've received ten warnings after their agreement to wait for consensus before making these changes. They've also routinely uploaded blatant copyright violations, such as a screenshot of the first 2020 presidential debate that they tried to use as the infobox photo for Chris Wallace. Most recently, they changed the portraits at Template:Joe Biden series and Template:Franklin D. Roosevelt series: [12], [13]. They have ignored most of these warnings, but responded to my most recent warning, arguing that their changes are supported by their "interpretation of the guidelines of Wikipedia", and that their continued undiscussed changes are acceptable because they discuss "most" of their changes now. I and others have assumed good faith and given them the benefit of the doubt many times, which they have chosen to abuse. A block is now needed to stem future disruption.

Diffs of undiscussed image changes

[14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40], [41], [42], [43], [44], [45], [46], [47], [48], [49], [50], [51], [52], [53], [54], [55], [56], [57], [58], [59], [60], [61], [62], [63], [64], [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70], [71], [72], [73], [74], [75], [76], [77], [78], [79], [80], [81], [82], [83], [84], [85], [86], [87], [88], [89], [90], [91], [92], [93], [94], [95], [96], [97], [98], [99], [100], [101], [102], [103], [104], [105], [106], [107], [108], [109], [110], [111], [112], [113], [114], [115], [116], [117], [118], [119], [120], [121], [122], [123], [124], [125], [126], [127], [128], [129], [130], [131], [132], [133], [134], [135], [136], [137], [138], [139], [140], [141], [142], [143], [144], [145], [146], [147], [148], [149], [150], [151], [152], [153], [154], [155], [156], [157], [158], [159], [160], [161], [162], [163], [164], [165], [166], [167], [168], [169], [170], [171], [172], [173], [174], [175], [176], [177], [178], [179], [180], [181], [182], [183], [184], [185], [186], [187], [188], [189], [190], [191], [192], [193], [194], [195], [196], [197], [198], [199], [200], [201], [202], [203], [204], [205], [206], [207], [208], [209], [210], [211], [212], [213], [214], [215], [216], [217], [218], [219], [220], [221], [222], [223], [224], [225], [226], [227], [228], [229], [230], [231], [232], [233], [234], [235], [236], [237], [238], [239], [240], [241], [242], [243], [244], [245], [246], [247]

Diffs of warnings given: [248], [249], [250], [251], [252], [253], [254], [255], [256], [257], [258], [259], [260]

― Tartan357 ^Talk 07:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support a ban after briefly looking over his history. (Non-administrator comment) Heart ^(talk) 15:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Support, if that's what it will take to get the message across. GoodDay (talk) 16:26, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support some sort of sanction along with a warning that continued changing of images without discussion will result in a more severe sanction. This editor seems to have appointed themselves as the Wikipedia authority on both image quality and copyright. Sundayclose (talk) 16:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support Some time ago I got the impression that the community supported the notion that attitudes could edit text without prior permission (with some rare exceptions), but the replacement of images with a different image (as opposed to adding a new image) was frowned upon without getting consensus. With rare exceptions, if I plan to replace an image with a different image I first post my intention on the talk page and wait to hear to see if there's any dissent. I want to support editors who have image editing skills, as there are many examples of images that could be improved either by editing the image itself, or tracking down a superior image. However, while someone with such skills might feel confident that a color photograph is better than a black-and-white, a photograph is better than the painting, and a cropped photo is better than an un-cropped photo, this doesn't necessarily follow. The communities' judgments might differ from the particular editors judgment. For that reason, I think editors should be generally encouraged to open a discussion on the talk page before making any such changes, and mandate that option if they have made such changes in the past and had them challenged. It's my understanding that this editor agreed to open discussions prior to making changes, and I support enforcing that. I'd hate to block someone if they simply misunderstand the communities view but given the number of warnings on the page it's hard to accept that as a possibility, so I reluctantly support a short block and hope the editor will agree to seek consensus before making any more changes.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support I looked at 7 or so of the example diffs, & only 2 were imo improvements - Chadwick Boseman, though that should be cropped at the bottom, & the Evan McMullin. Albert Einstein uses a colourized image, which we don't like. Johnbod (talk) 18:56, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support On one hand the suggestion that anyone has to check with others before making edits is ridiculous on its face and against the wiki spirit. "You really should stop making unilateral image changes across articles." How dare the unwashed masses trod upon the holy temple of infobox images. The issues with edit warring and refusing to discuss after being reverted are the actual issue here. I suggest a topic ban on adding or replacing images until the editor agrees to mentoring and shows an understanding of copyright policy and edit warring guidelines. --Laser brain (talk) 13:58, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support - I agree with Laser-brain (and disagree with Sphilbrick) in that the problem is not changing images without prior discussion, since that's no more than normal Wikipedia editing procedure. The problem is replacing good images with ones which are not improvements. A more recent photo is not necessarily better than an older one, depending on the photos, nor is a color image automatically better than a good black and white one, especially if the b&w image presents a subject in their prime and not their old age. Even an image with better resolution is not absolutely better with one that's lower in resolution. It all depends on the images involved! It's an editorial judgment call, the kind we all make all the time with text, no different than that. If Editor X's judgment is bad, and they're favoring a less good image over a better one, than that change needs to be reverted and explained to the editor. If Editor X constantly makes those kind of poor judgment calls, then a sanction, such as a topic ban or a short block, needs to be put in place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:53, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @Beyond My Ken: I understand your point that changing images per se is not necessarily anything unusual on Wikipedia, but in the case of this particular editor, the changes have been very frequent, and often when the change is reverted, this editor reverts back without discussion. Additionally, there have been many requests that changes should be discussed; the editor agreed to discuss in the future but often does not. Also, the copyright violations are a serious problem; there have been warnings about that but the violations continue. Another annoying pattern with this editor is that they seem satisfied with their own edit summary such as "changed to better image" or "changed to color image", but they will argue that a similarly expressed reason for reverting is not acceptable. This editor seems to consider themselves as not being subject to the need to abide by policies and to edit collaboratively. Sundayclose (talk) 22:27, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

    Sundayclose, I completely agree. I should have made it more clear that I don't see changing images without discussion as a problem in and of itself. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 23:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Close needed: @HeartGlow30797, GoodDay, Sundayclose, Sphilbrick, Johnbod, Laser brain, and Beyond My Ken: This editor added a nonfree image to two pages while this discussion was ongoing: [261], [262]. There seems to be a consensus here for either a block or a topic ban, and I think one of those should now be applied given the ongoing disruption. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 22:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Topic would suffice (for now, at least). Just hope this isn't the same fellow who was blocked for disruptive image downloads & later for socking around that block. GoodDay (talk) 22:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

GoodDay, you've piqued my curiosity. What was that editor's handle? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 22:16, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

He was Lennox Theodore Anderson & his sock AndersonL7333. -- GoodDay (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree that an admin should impose a topic ban on image changes. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Disruptive POV edits from Belteshazzar on Bates Method and related articles suggest block or topic ban

Belteshazzar caused controversy on the Bates method article in March and May 2020, he still continues to edit this article and the talk-page. Many of his edits are pointy or violate NPOV and are usually reverted. If you check his block log or talk-page he was blocked in May for 31 hours and for 2 weeks in June for disruptive and POV edits on the Bates method article. The same user was also reported to this admin board [263] in July.

On 6 June 2020, I complained about Belteshazzar's disruptive edits [264] which were being made on a basis of WP:DISRUPT and WP:POINT. Basically this user started to edit the Bates Method article to remove criticisms or challenge the "ineffective" statement in the lead. His purpose on Wikipedia was to dispute the claim of the Bates Method being ineffective. After he lost, to make a point he went onto articles related to the Bates method and did the complete opposite, you can see some of those edits in the diff I list above. After being blocked, now he has gone back to challenging the ineffective statement again.

Belteshazzar does not appear to have a good understanding of what the scientific method is. Now there is nothing wrong with this but at least four different users have explained to Belteshazzar why anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence, but he continues to ignore this. Instead he relies on anecdotal evidence for the claim that the Bates method is not ineffective. His flawed reasoning behind this is that if the Bates Method is ineffective then it couldn't have improved Aldous Huxley's eyesight. There has been a debate about that on the talk-page recently "ineffective", and I explained to him not to confuse anecdotal evidence with scientific studies with controls. If you check the talk-page itself, all we see is Belteshazzar, Belteshazzar and Belteshazzar. He's basically disrupted the article and talk-page for months. You can check the archives. He's been there since March 2020 creating countless sections [265] on the talk-page which pretty much all equate to the same agenda trying to get the term "ineffective" removed from the lead. This same user has caused problems on other articles related to the Bates method including Margaret Darst Corbett, The Art of Seeing etc.

As of 8 November 2020, Belteshazzar, is still editing the Bates Method and has recently said he wants to challenge the "ineffective" statement on Wikipedia regarding the Bates method [266]. We have been here many times before with this user. I believe this is a case of WP:NOTHERE. This user has been given many warnings and received blocks etc but never changes his behavior. A comment on his last block by an admin was "Last chance block for WP:POINTy behaviour". I believe this user has violated this. As others have requested before I believe this user should be topic banned from editing the Bates method or anything related to Ophthalmology. This user is lucky because he has received so many warnings and advice from many different editors, yet he ignores everyone. I personally think an outright block might be appropriate, the user in question is not acting in good faith. We need to ask ourselves what is going on here. It's disruption plain and simple, the user is not here to build or improve the project. His editing is agenda based to remove "ineffective" from the lead on the Bates method article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Please see my explanation for my post on my talk page. I don't intend to propose this myself, and I'm sure it wouldn't be implemented anyway, barring a surprising development. Belteshazzar (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Excellent summary by PG, editer is an immense timesink, now just disruptive. Support outright block as proposed. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 21:43, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

I've been idly following Talk:Bates method for some time, and I'm afraid I must also agree with Psychologist Guy, and advise anyone reading this to seriously just take a scroll through it and recent archives. It is not an exaggeration to say that Belteshazzar is very near to half of all the comments written on the talk page and archive pages 21 through 23, essentially all of them pushing pro-Bates POV and trying to remove "ineffective". Leijurv (talk) 09:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Much of it was me trying to better explain reasons the Bates method might seem to work, although the improvement may not be genuine or attributable to the Bates method. The initial discussion led to such explanations being removed from the article. Interestingly, sources from 1943 and 1957 are still used to source one such reason. [267] So there is some inconsistency regarding sources. I returned to "ineffective" when I realized that there is a known mechanism by which some aspects of the Bates method might genuinely work, although no valid source directly makes this connection. Also note that others have opposed "ineffective", but quickly given up. Belteshazzar (talk) 16:11, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• In my refined argument (which Psychologist Guy tried to link to here), I didn't bring up Huxley or any anecdotes. Psychologist Guy returned to what I previously said about that, however. Belteshazzar (talk) 00:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• I've not commented on Talk:Bates method since October 21, and for a while now my edits to the article have not concerned this aspect of the subject. The current situation was triggered by a comment I made on my own talk page, intended for possible future reference if the Bates method becomes less fringe. Belteshazzar (talk) 02:56, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• The July ANI report was made after I did something perfectly legitimate, as I explained here. Belteshazzar (talk) 06:01, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• Here's a case where I fixed an actual pro-Bates pov: [268] Belteshazzar (talk) 21:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• [269] [270] This was a minor point, but it illustrates my confusion over "pov-pushing". We currently have exactly one source which makes or even mentions that argument, so how can we say it is a "frequent criticism"? Yes, that point comes up frequently in casual discussions about the Bates method, but so does pseudomyopia, which isn't currently mentioned in the article. Belteshazzar (talk) 18:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• From June 2019 to February 2020, four different established users removed "ineffective": [271] [272] [273] [274] Belteshazzar (talk) 06:15, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Hipal reverted my edit simply because I "need to be banned or blocked". When I earlier cleaned up the problematic section I mentioned, giving clear explanations, he treated me rather badly. Belteshazzar (talk) 04:19, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  I removed it because of the continued problems you cause, of which that is an example as is your response here, for which you need to be blocked or banned. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:19, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  You "removed" what? I only moved something to a more relevant section, and your revert moved it back. Belteshazzar (talk) 23:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• Today I flagged an updated source which now explains possible risks which are not yet mentioned in the Bates method article. While I offer this to show that I am not pov-pushing, I did not do this simply to prove that; a source which I had been checking regularly was very recently updated (it says September, but it must have only been posted within the last few days). Belteshazzar (talk) 23:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Pasdecomplot

• Pasdecomplot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Pasdecomplot has been warned multiple times over months by multiple editors about making accusations of bad faith, both at talk pages and in edit summaries.

Editors who want to edit in contentious areas should expect pushback. They should expect to have to defend every edit, to have other editors push back, to have to talk and talk and talk before making even small edits. PDC makes sweeping edits to an extremely contentious area – Tibetan Buddhism and China – and if another editor disagrees with their edits, they immediately go to accusations of bad faith, misrepresentation of sources, and hounding, both in posts and in edit summaries. I’ll note that I have only a general understanding of the subject, so I have no idea whether PDC’s edits are helpful or not. My concern is solely the unwillingness to assume good faith and focus on the edits rather than making accusations about the other editors’ motivations.

PDC now has nearly 2500 edits. They are no longer a newbie. They are ignoring our policies on assuming good faith, and they’re doing it flagrantly and unrepentantly and repeatedly. I hate to suggest they be topic banned from their clear area of highest interest, but I am at a loss, here. Personally all I want is to see them forbidden from making any accusation of bad faith of any kind against any other editor (broadly construed; that is, no referring to "bad faith edits") either on talk pages or in edit summaries.

Many editors have tried to help PDC understand this. These are just some of the more recent:

• Usedtobecool tried to explain Sept 21

• PDC continues to accuse others of bad faith editing September 30:1 2 3

• Message on PDC's talk from Cullen328, who on October 1 asks for an explanation. 4 PDC replies, including further accusations of bad faith in the reply and subsequent replies: 5

• Warning from me October 2, which included a plea for PDC to stop accusing any other editor of bad faith, noted as seen: 6

• Continuing to accuse others of bad faith edits, misrepresentation, and hounding October 19: 7 8 9 Warning about it seen and removed: 10 Warning given by Girth Summit October 21: 11

• November 7: 11 Warning at article talk seen: 12

• November 8: warning seen and removed with an edit summary accusing the editor leaving the warning of acting in bad faith: 13

—valereee (talk) 19:00, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

The ANI is completely without merit as it's a coatrack of diffs crafted together with an alleged "concern" about good faith.

• Most recently, the involved admin, with a history of coordinating with an author of a blatant PA (see above), has stepped actively and aggressively into two requests for moves[275] and[276] in a topic area for which they admit (see above) to not having knowledge. The admin has previously been warned by El_C to either edit or admin pages, not both simultaneously. Then while again blending roles, the involved admin ignored a blatant PA, then mischaracterized edits as "edit waring" then doubled down to further mischaracterize the events as "disruptive editing", then tripled down to mischaracterize the complaint of the PA itself as a personal attack, then quadrupled down to bring it to ANI.

• Which makes the notice all the more curious since good faith is always assumed. But, PA's are not defined in policy as examples of "good faith", nor are repeated unfounded accusations of personal attacks and accusations of disruptive editing, nor are disturbing messages left by the involved admin on talk (02OCT on talk[277] then[278] then[279]. Then on another talk[280] then[281]).

• To detail why the ANI is especially inappropriate at this time, a blantant PA was found on a request for move (that also totally mischaracterized posting of diffs showing work by the editor responsible for moving the page without CON). The PA was deleted, per policy[282]. The author of the PA posts the same PA again, and deletes the text citing reasons the PA was deleted[283]. The reposting of blatant PA was again deleted per policy[284]. The author of the PA posts same PA for the third time[285]. The very involved admin then mischaracterizes the policy-approved deletion of PA as "edit waring"[286]. The failure to cite the blatant PA by the involved admin is made[287], and the complaint of the PA, which was deleted by the author of the PA, was posted here[288] and on the talk where it was first posted[289]. The admin further mischaracterizes quotes of PA as a personal attack from me[290] and both involved admin and author of blatant PA accuse me of disruptive editing and personal attacks on my user talk[291].
• An ANI citing "concerns" for good faith is not in any way appropriate, and especially not appropriate for these repeated unaddressed blatant PA's by another editor, nor for escalating mischaracterizations by both the involved admin and the author of the repeated blatant PA's. Pasdecomplot (talk) 14:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• PDC, as I said at the article talk in question, I warned the other editor on their talk, just like I did on yours. Also as I said there, twice, I am acting only as an editor w/re that article and have not done anything administrative. —valereee (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

  PDC's response here may well also illustrate the issue you describe (which may require administrative correction), but you can't exactly blame him for not placing much trust in your warnings. I mean (if I remember the old ANI correctly) you did once upon a time block him, an exclusively mobile user, for not formatting his talk page posts correctly. For the record, that ANI was closed without finding your block inappropriate, and you conversed with him fairly in the linked discussion now, but my point is that it's not unreasonable for the editor to now think you don't have his best interests at heart (even if this isn't true), and so refuse to trust/follow your advice. For better or worse, the snarky edit summary in diff 13 is pretty much what the avg established editor would also write in such a situation (ime). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:55, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh yeah, disregard warnings and the result is on you. That's the main reason blocks and other sanctions occur; individuals, for whatever reason, disregard warnings/advice. If one has a problem dispassionately assessing what they're being told they will have a difficult time here. Tiderolls 17:14, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• ProcrastinatingReader, I don't blame PDC for not thinking I have their best interests at heart, either, lol. What I have at heart is our policy on assuming good faith. Really, that's all. If PDC would just stop talking about other editors and instead talk about edits (without referring to them as "bad faith edits", though), we wouldn't be here. —valereee (talk) 18:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)I don't think it's quite so straight forward in the abstract. Look at my ANI case above, where I was "warned" by administrators. There can be some validity in an editor feeling a warning is not coming from the right place. In such cases, it helps to have an uninvolved, totally objective admin assess the situation and issue appropriate guidance. Of course, in this case that was Girth on 21 October (who provided some excellent, objective advice). But I'm just saying, the point of a warning isn't a checkbox towards a block/ban, it should come from a position of total objectivity & trust as advice to rectify conduct, otherwise it'll be ineffective. As it relates to Pasdecomplot, as someone who saw the last two ANIs on this editor, I don't think they're intentionally trying to be disruptive (not that intent is the end-all when it's disruption). But I think they think everyone is out to get them. And to be fair, sometimes they are baited. There's obviously things that need rectifying here, but (if it's at all possible) I think it'd be nice to see that happen without permanent/long sanctions. How exactly, I don't know. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:07, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

  ProcrastinatingReader, and by Cullen at his talk, and by EI_C at both their talk and PDC's, and massive advice from UTBC at UTBC's talk. This isn't something new. This has been going on for months. The amount of time other editors have spent trying to help PDC understand what 'assume good faith' means is very large. I've literally been trying for months to avoid bringing this to ANI; I'd always prefer to deal with issues anywhere else. The point of warnings is to get someone's attention in hopes they'll take the policy behind it onboard, and to let other editors see the issue has been raised with the person before. —valereee (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

  A discussion on whether to restore this report from the archive happened at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#discussion archived unclosed. EdJohnston (talk) 20:15, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• Note: PdC doubled down yesterday on the verbiage against Rigley (initial post here), despite the discussion centering around a Requested Move. Even though PdC removed the explicit mention of Rigley's name from that Note to closer comment, their attempt to introduce irrelevant material still stands. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 21:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Suggested admin action Block proposed

• Unarchiving as this was never closed. I'd like to see some resolution here, if possible. I'm going to suggest a 1-week block, a ban on saying anything about any other editor in edit summaries or talk posts, a ban on describing edits as "bad faith" or "misleading" or "misrepresenting sources", with blocks of increasing length for further violations. —valereee (talk) 19:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  3rd one is too broad. Being unable to characterise particular edits as misleading in some way or another is a very broad range of vocabulary, which can be valid in situations. As this editor edits in niche areas, I can see that backfiring on their productivity. I'd possibly support a time-limited ban on accusing other editors of conduct issues for a while, except at ANI, automatically expiring after a month, solely in order to force the editor to discuss content not accusations of conduct in various content discussions. Hopefully that instills the habit for after the ban expires. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• I've changed this heading per advice at AN. Proposing one-month block with a six-month ban on commenting on other editors' motivations anywhere but at ANI. This has already achieved a level of consensus in this discussion which was followed by a very clear final warning here that blocks of increasing length would follow the next incident. —valereee (talk) 05:48, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support as proposer. —valereee (talk) 05:48, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support editing restriction, but I don't think a block is required at this point. My experience of interacting with PdC, and my review of their contributions, have led me to the conclusion that they themselves are here in good faith, but that they are far too quick to assume bad faith of others and to accuse people of it (or heavily imply it) in inappropriate ways such as edit summaries. PdC obviously needs a way to seek a remedy if they genuinely believe someone is acting in bad faith and have evidence to back that up, but I believe that they need to be restricted from commenting on other editors' motivations entirely in edit summaries and on article talk pages. They would be able to continue to edit, and to avoid any blocks at all, by simply focussing on content and not on contributors, as WP:NPA advises. I can get behind this being a six-month restriction, but my first choice would be that it be imposed indefinitely, with the opportunity to appeal after six months once they've shown they are willing to cut it out. GirthSummit _(blether) 19:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support one month block and indefinite editing restriction. This "assume bad faith" behavior justified by giant walls of text has gone on far too long. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 19:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support one month block and indefinite editing restriction per above. The indefinite editing restriction for the reasons Girth lays out. I support the block because the problems are ongoing: Special:Diff/988636704. Warnings have not brought about the desired change. Lev¡vich 19:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support a time-limited restriction only, per Girth. Block seems unnecessary imv. After all, if the restriction remedies the situation, we're all good. If it doesn't, then the ban is enforced by blocks. Simple. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
  • To add, I generally find indefinite restrictions inappropriate. It's too hard to get them removed, far harder than showing enough need to have them instated again at all. If conduct remains a problem, ask to have them reinstated. If it doesn't, great. Look at various appeals of restrictions (here or at ArbCom), people generally turn them down because they are doing their job and conduct was rectified, so seemingly few people want to risk removing the restriction, which creates an undue excessive burden. Yet the only way you can possibly evidence that you won't do it again is by not doing it while the ban was in place, but that's rarely enough for people to agree to remove the restriction. Plus, tbh, we don't need to tilt the burden even more in the favour of who can make an eloquent speech in front of ANI, and keep banned whoever cannot. If the conduct is rectified there's no need for restrictions. If it isn't, they'll be reinstated with ease. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:26, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Wholesale removals of reliable information from political article with 1RR restrictions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• People's Mujahedin of Iran (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Mhhossein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Idealigic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• WP:GS/IRANPOL

User:Mhhossein is turning the People’s Mujahedin of Iran page into some kind of WP:ATTACK page, often through a WP:PLAYPOLICY modus operandi. I have been trying to work it out with him on the talk page to no avail.

For a long time Mhhossein has been packing the article with repeated allegations that the MEK (the biggest political opposition to Iran's Islamic Republic) is a “cult”, citing that "WP:DUE demands fairly representing "all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources" while at the same time removing opposing viewpoints [292] [293] [294] [295] with reports indicating that the Tehran government has gone to great lengths to demonise the MEK. Here are some examples of Mhhossein's removals :

1 "According to Majid Rafizadeh, there is an organized and well-funded misinformation campaign aimed at demonizing the MEK.”

2 “On July 5, 2010, during a testimony at the Canadian Parliament, John Thompson (head of the Mackenzie Institute) stated that he had been offered $80,000 by a man tied to Iran's mission in Canada, adding that "they wanted me to publish a piece on the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK). Iran is trying to get other countries to label it as a terrorist cult.”"

3 "According to a report by the General Intelligence and Security Service, Iranian intelligence services have targeted suspected and actual members of the MEK in the Netherlands, also attempting to gather information about political opposition groups and sometimes pressuring Iranians into conducting espionage."

4 "In 2019, the EU placed sanctions against Iran for state terrorist activities that involved the Ministry of Intelligence (Iran) (MOIS) and an Iranian diplomat in Austria being placed on the EU terrorist list. The diplomat is said to have worked for MOIS and was involved in planning an attack against the MEK in 2018."

5 "A 2011 report by the General Intelligence and Security Service stated that the government in Iran continued to coordinate a campaign financed by the Iranian intelligence services to undermine and portray the MEK in a highly negative manner. This campaign also involved the media, politicians, and public servants."

6 "According to reports by Ministerium des Innern des Landes Nordrhein-Westfalen, the Ministry of Intelligence (Iran)'s main focus (in Iran and abroad) is to monitor and combat the main political opposition, and as of 2016, the Iranian intelligence service continued with its strategy of discrediting the MEK through propaganda."

7 "Political scientist Dr. Majid Rafizadeh stated that “The Iranian regime has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to demonize the PMOI and portrayed it as a group without popular support.”

8 "According to Hamid Bahrami the Iranian regime has ran "a vast and costly demonization campaign against the main Iranian opposition group, the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran", adding that Iran's propaganda against the MEK has spread also in Western and Middle Eastern media."

9 "On June 19, 1988, the NLA launched another offensive called “Chetel Setareh or “Operation Forty Stars” where twenty-two MEK brigades recaptured Mehran."

10 "while according to the MEK, “absolutely no Iraqi soldiers participated in this operation”. Iraqi Minister Latif Nassif Jassim too denied Iraq deploying air units to help the NLA or that it used chemical weapons to drive Islamic Republic soldiers from Mehran.”

11 "In July of 1988, the NLA carried out Operation Mersad (also known as "operation Eternal Light) “in which the two Khuzestani towns of Kerand and Eslamabad were ‘liberated’ from the regime’s troops”. MEK press displayed photos of NLA troops in action and destroyed Iranian regime weapons and equipment.

12 "According to Hussein-Ali Montazeri, this was also carried out with the support of Iraqi government."

13 "According to MEK intelligence, the Islamic Republic set up a "Psychological Welfare Committee" made of clergymen chosen by Ayatollah Khomeini. This committee emerged as a think tank. An intelligence document gathered by the MEK said that the Komite advised their leadership that it "had to take the Mojahedin’s speedy developments and attacks seriously as they had demonstrated their ability to penetrate Iranian territory and destroy one of the Iranian brigades".

14 "In another report by the Komite presented to the Islamic Republic on 15 August 1988, it found that "the more people defected from the Iranian army as a result of the Mojahedin's operations, the more frequent and larger they became." Komite members said in the report that it didn’t know how to prevent MEK achievements, which "had enabled the NLA to conquer Mehran".

15 "A Komite report reached the conclusion that in order to prevent the MEK from achieving its goals, a strategy for collecting intelligence needed to be created. The Iran regime carried out the Komite's recommendation and started focusing its activities on MEK supporters in Iran (particularly in Iranian jailhouses). After the Iran-Iraq ceasefire agreement, the regime started executing Iranian citizens accused of assisting the MEK in Western Iran"

16 "inflicting heavy casualties on the 77 Khorassan Division"

Myself and other editors have asked Mhhossein to explain these latest removals on the article’s talk page [296] [297] [298], but his answers often address only certain parts of the text and not others, or are self contradicting, or don't make much sense (at least to me).

Mhhossein has received many warnings in the past and was blocked in April for tendentious behavior and original research under Wikipedia:General sanctions/Post-1978 Iranian politics. Idealigic (talk) 19:43, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

This is a fairly frustrating content dispute where neither side wants to compromise. I have tried to make increment improvements on the page but they get reverted. I don't think Mhhossein's behavior is problematic, although I do disagree with him on certain content matters. I'm not sure why this is at ANI?VR _talk 15:21, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

When you remove this much reliable content without giving a guideline based explanation then this is no longer a content dispute. I would appreciate @Mhhossein: providing a guideline based explanation for each of his removals here (no bludgeoning please, just a short and clear explanation) so others can decide whether this is a content dispute or more tendentious editing from Mhhossein. Idealigic (talk) 11:44, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Idealigic (talk · contribs) I asked you a question about some sourced content removal you advocated here. I made sure to ping you in that comment, and I noticed you didn't respond. I am WP:AGF that you simply forgot or got busy. Just because someone doesn't immediately respond to a question doesn't mean you take them to WP:ANI.VR _talk 19:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - enough please. I'm involved in this page and Mhhossein's constant removal of information and misuse of Wikipedia's policies to enforce a non-neutral point of view has become ridiculous. This sort of behavior has gone on for quite awhile. - MA Javadi (talk) 17:29, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

MA Javadi (talk · contribs) on the talk page, you support wholescale removal of reliably sourced content too.[299][300] I'm not sure how you can accuse him without looking at your own behavior.VR _talk 19:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• I agree this is disruption. We had little admin involvement in the last ANI report about Mhhossein where he denied doing anything wrong even though uninvolved editors said there was strong evidence of non-neutral editing, trying to WP:GAME the system and playing WP:IDHT games, as well as treating Wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. In that report Mhhossein received a strong warning, but his ways at the People's Mujahedin of Iran article have not improved, they have gotten worse. Alex-h (talk) 20:09, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Proposal: WP:TBAN Mhhossein from Iranian politic-related subjects

• Support. The report link provided by Alex-h shows Mhhossein's behavior in Iranian politic articles has not changed. I have spent weeks trying to get Mhhossein to give a policy based answer about all these removals to no avail, and Mhhossein has also refused to engage here. Mhhossein never accepts any wrongdoing for his edits but instead blames others or bludgeons discussions until nobody can follow them anymore. The "strong warning" he received about his "non-neutral editing" and then getting blocked for tendentious behavior in April should have been enough for him to realise there was a problem with his edits, yet, the evidence provided in this last report shows that Mhhossein is still engaged in tendentious editing in articles about Iranian politics. Idealigic (talk) 09:44, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
• Strong oppose there is fairly productive discussion happening at Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran. For example, look at this section. If you follow the discussion you'll see that Mhhossein takes feedback seriously (he is told that his sources are not adequate and he finds better sourcing). In fact, no one seems to engage in as much discussion as Mhhossein on that page.VR _talk 15:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban from Iranian politics. I disagree with VR that the talk page discussions at Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran are presently productive, quite the opposite actually where Mhhossein bludgeons the RFCs (the only method left in that page to reach any form of compromise) and things like this have happened when Mhhossein doens't like the result.

What I would have liked to see in this report is at least Mhhossein acknowledging that he may have gotten carried away with deleting information from the article. Instead, when Idealigic asks Mhhossein about the material he deleted, Mhhossein responds "I am getting frustrated by your harassing questions" saying he removed this information because it's already covered in the article (but I don't see this information in the article). When asked again, Mhhossein replies "Probably more eyes should be attracted on my report of the pro-MEK editors always wandering around the page," then calls Idealigic's enquiry "baseless", then says that he removed the information because it's already in the article (but I still don't see this information in the article).

There is also the treating Wikipedia like a battleground, specially when someone tries to notify Mhhossein of any possible wrongdoing: [301] "pure disruption, a boomerang would deserve that best" - [302] "Harassment" - [303] "Keep out specially when you're here to harass with baseless comments" -[304] "pure harassment" -[305] "clear harassment" -[306] "pure disruption" -[307] "harassment have no place here". Also at Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran where, for instance, Mhhossein is presented with a reliable source opposing his POV and he responds that it is "Original research", or when Idealigic explains a point to another editor, Mhhossein writes that Idealigic is "misleading" them. Ypatch (talk) 06:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The context of Mhhossein saying a user was doing "Original research" was in the dispute on whether allegations that MEK is a cult are disputed or not. There had been quite a lot of source twisting in this "cult" dispute and Mhhossein has been correct to point it out. Subsequent to that comment, Mhhossein's allegations of source twisting were proven correct and acknowledged: this section and this retraction by an opposing user).VR _talk 23:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Small wonder that this report has received no outside input whatsoever, when the entirety of the discussion here displays the same utter lack of desire to edit collaboratively that has plagued the MEK article for a considerable while. I'm sorely tempted to topic ban the lot of you, and that's what many admins would do in this situation. But I haven't the time to read through all the evidence at the moment, and I'm not going to take a draconian action without doing so. I do want to leave a note for the closer that I believe no sanction should be levied in the absence of uninvolved input from anyone who has not read the entirety of the most recent dispute. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Here is Mhhossein's last answer on the article's talk page about these wholesale removals. Can somebody please check if his answer gives a policy based reason for the removals raised in this report? For further reference, here are the three talk page discussions about these removals: [308] [309] [310]. Idealigic (talk) 10:08, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requesting review of my block of User:Ether161

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I have blocked User:Ether161 for their second recreation of an AfD-deleted article. The editor initially created Cathy Yanni, which was deleted as non-notable at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cathy Yanni (in which discussion I participated). The editor then recreated the page with much the same content a week later, at which point User:Herpetogenesis tagged it as COI and for speedy deletion, which I carried out, salting the page. Ether161 then recreated the page at Cathy Yаnni (with the "a" in Yanni from a different character set). I considered this to be egregious enough to consider the editor WP:NOTHERE. However, since I participated in the initial deletion discussion, I feel that I should get a second opinion. Note: I have reduced the block to 24 hours pending discussion. BD2412 T 01:46, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Looks like a spammer to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:30, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• Good deletion, good block. Persistently recreating articles with slightly different titles to avoid salting is something only spammers do. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:31, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• @BD2412: I think you had it right the first tie. Endorse indef block for WP:NOTHERE --Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:06, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• More info: see Draft:Cathy Yanni, and this user's contributions to Edelson and, if you can see them, Fandb, which they also recreated after deletion. Looks like WP:NOTHERE to me, in that they're here to promote non-notable corporate entities, not to build an encyclopedia. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:23, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• Clearly disruptive behaviour. A comment on the Cathy Yanni article: the first two reiterations describe a lawyer with a list of 'notable' cases but the third reiteration is quite different, it describes an academic and looks more promising but is woefully undersourced for a BLP. Edit: Actually the sources don’t appear to support the content in any way... Further edit: the third reiteration is mostly copied from Anita L. Allen. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:26, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

  The first revision of the extant draft is an unattributed cut-and-paste from Cynthia McClain-Hill, and so is the October 5 creation of Cathy Yanni. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:02, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

  And evidently all of their contributions to Pioneer Springs Community School were copyright violations as well. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• (nac) "[Cathy Yanni] is recognized [...] as one of the top meditators in the United States." I may need to think about that. Narky Blert (talk) 20:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

  Without reviewing the sources, and purely on the face of it; from my legal training, Draft:Cathy Yanni looks to me like what practising lawyers call a "CV" or "résumé". Narky Blert (talk) 20:17, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks. Pursuant to the above, I am reimposing a WP:NOTHERE indefblock. BD2412 T 20:50, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• For what it's worth, I've sent the draft to MFD. FMecha (to talk|to see log) 11:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

User bringing Commons disputes over here

Mawcowboybillsbrick7 has not made a mainspace edit on English Wikipedia since 2012, and their only contributions in the last month have been to complain about deletion on Commons with thinly veiled personal attacks e.g. [311], [312], [313]. It is clear that they are not here to provide any benefit to the English language encyclopedia, only to continue on disputes from Commons. Thus, I believe that they should be blocked here, as if they want to discuss images on Commons, it should be done on Commons. And personal attacks and accusing people of being robots should not be tolerated. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't really understand. What about those edits are personal attacks? It looks to me like they're just asking for information. I have no idea what they're doing with their user space but it doesn't seem to be malicious. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:29, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

More to the point I guess: what disruption to English Wikipedia would we prevent by blocking them? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:32, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

They are accusing users of being robots (multiple times), and wasting English Wikipedia user's time by constantly pinging them, see User talk:Mawcowboybillsbrick7#Unable to stop automatic deletion of image for illogical reason, which is at least the third time they've started a discussion pinging editors about issues on Commons. Commons issues should be dealt with on Commons, and this user clearly cannot understand that. They're using of userpage/user talkpage as a web host is wasting users' time deleting rubbish from there e.g. [314], and User:Mawcowboybillsbrick7/Personal Biography Information is just a waste of time. Anyone with no mainspace edits for 8 years that is taking up reasonable amounts of users' time should be blocked. They have made 0 attempts to edit mainspace, and so are clearly not here to add value to this encyclopedia. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:38, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

@Joseph2302:If they are pinging, you can mute them. @Ivanvector: are they nothere? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:42, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Please see related discussion at the Teahouse and on their talk page. They are here to complain about deletions of their uploads on Commons (content on their talk here also revdel'd as copyvio) and to compalin about their block on commons. Looks WP:NOTHERE to me. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:48, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• There block on Commons expires November 12, --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oh, boy. Their uploads on Commons look entirely related to their nothereness here. Certainly they look "out of scope" for commons. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Their Commons contributions were worse than that, 6 similar things have been deleted today. And the deleted/remaining contributions are causing irritation on English Wiki. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Mawcowboybillsbrick7: The best advice I can give is that you deal with Commons issues on Commons. Pinging people here, editing your user spacenon constructively, and asking at the Teahouse about Commons issues, are not helpful to you or constructive to the encyclopedia. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:04, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• I don't see where they were "warned" at all on Commons. I can't see deleted contribs over there but it looks like they made their last edit there at 8:43 on Nov 5. Herbythyme dropped a series of image deletion notices on their talk page starting at 12:43, blocked them one minute later, and kept blasting more deletion notices for another three minutes, but made no effort at all to explain how to fix the uploads, or really any advice or warning of any kind, at all. Four hours after the user's last edit they were bombarded with a whole bunch of image deletion notices and then they were blocked without any chance to respond. As far as I can tell nobody ever tried to explain anything to the user, and now they're over here looking for clarification. They're obviously trying to do the right thing (whatever they think it is) but apparently nobody can be bothered to even try to help them. Some more sadistic administrator might block for asking for help but I'm not going to. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:44, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • For what it may be worth, he was warned here 17 months before the block but apparently continued uploading copyrighted files. —teb728 t c 19:49, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Yes, someone seems to have told them to start providing licensing information with their uploads, and so they started trying to embed their own copyright notices in the images (i.e. File:Prevent-harm-2.002.jpg, also this comment). So they're trying, but not apparently comprehending the instruction, and frankly, providing that information in exactly the right way is confusing. If they were also doing that with the screenshots they were trying to upload, well then they're claiming rights they don't have, and that's also problematic. I think the root of the issue here is not the uploads, but the fact they seem to be trying to write an autobiography (Mark Washburn, deleted in 2011 but not really any content; not sure if that's what they're doing with their Personal Biography Information page) and they've proposed a comparison between two software packages (the ones they're pulling screenshots from, probably), one of which they claim to be the author of, but there doesn't seem to be an article on it (we have Keyfile and CORBA as separate things, I'm not really sure what they're getting at here), and neither of those are really appropriate uses of Wikipedia. So this might come down to WP:CIR or WP:RGW, but I think they're at least WP:HERE, if misguided; meanwhile the communities on two different wikis have been barking at them about what not to do for a decade but nobody has ever suggested what they should do. Anyway, with no surviving article edits since 2012, I don't see how their trying to find their way in userspace is all that urgently disruptive. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:34, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
    • As a descriptive example, take their Teahouse thread about File:AGATE IMG 4478.jpg, which was one of the files they uploaded on November 5. They clearly provided that the image is their own work and that they are the author, but the image was shortly afterwards flagged with a template complaining that the file will be deleted if source and author are not provided, and as icing on that cake, the tagger also blocked them, so even if they could interpret just what the hell they're being asked to do, they can't, and the file will be automatically deleted before they can do any damn thing about it. I presume if they just try to upload it again after their block expires that you have some kind of WP:G4-like criteria and will just delete it and block them again, probably also with little explanation. Given their apparent inexperience they probably have no idea they could ask for help on their Commons talk page (if they can, I honestly don't know) and so it makes absolutely perfect sense that they would come here instead, and I'm not going to block them for that. I'd be pretty fucking frustrated if I were them, and my queries about it would not be as politely phrased as what they politely asked at Teahouse. Maybe the image also doesn't have any encyclopedic merit, since they're only using it on a userspace draft page on which they're writing some kind of poetry, but that is not the issue that has been raised, it seems purely about not filling in exactly the right lines on exactly the right template or some dumb thing. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:50, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• As has been noted bu others, it's a different world over there. They do have a {{{helpme}}} template. However,Mawcowboybillsbrick7 must seek relief there and not here. As has beed explained on their talk page, they've a whole slew of uploads that are "out of scope" for Commons. Most if not all of their current files under discussion look out of scope. . . . .Perhaps @Herbythyme: can illuminate us. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • As mentioned Commons is not Wikipedia. However this user has been uploading copyright violations since June (IIRC) and has been notified of the fact quite a few times. They continued to re-upload the same files and so were blocked for a brief period. Commons does not have the volume of active admins that Wikipedia does. The user could have appealed this block on Commons at any time and it would have been reviewed by another admin. Additionally, copyright aside, it seems increasingly unlikely that the uploads fit within Commons scope given that some en wp people have nominated for deletion. I don't think there is anything else to say and there is more than enough to keep me busy on Commons. Thanks --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
• I don’t fault Mawcowboybillsbrick7 at all for his complaints about his treatment on Commons. (I have removed the No source tag from C:File:AGATE IMG 4478.jpg.) He has been a problem user for other things: But one can hope that that as a result of the Teahouse threads here and here, he realizes that his personal experiences with Microsoft cannot be used in an article. And perhaps he mistakenly thinks that User:Mawcowboybillsbrick7/Personal Biography Information and User:Mawcowboybillsbrick7/Agate are potential articles rather than personal doodles. —teb728 t c 09:16, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

User:عمرو بن كلثوم and Syrian Kurdistan

I believe User:عمرو بن كلثوم is editing tendentiously. The Talk page of the article Syrian Kurdistan is almost exclusively a complaints page from a wide variety of editors, over the past many months, about the behaviour of this user, and evident from the discussion is an obvious POV based on denialism, to whit: the user would rather the term Syrian Kurdistan did not exist, and is convinced (against all and repeatedly offered evidence) that the phrase is a neologism produced by expansionist Kurdish nationalists this century. The user would have the world believe there was never any such thing as a Syrian part of Kurdistan (i.e. within the 20th- and 21st-century Syrian Arab Republic); and the whole thing is some sort of conspiracy cooked up since the Syrian Civil War. The user has here embarked on an attempt to gain support for their POV here: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#PhD_candidate_as_a_reliable_source_for_a_denial_of_Syrian_Kurdistan_against_the_views_of_multiple_professors_stating_otherwise? and when another user sought assistance here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_a_book_by_the_PhD_candidate_Mustafa_Hamza_a_reliable_source_for_a_denial_of_a_Syrian_Kurdistan? and will not take no for an answer. I suspect administrator action of some kind is needful. GPinkerton (talk) 01:54, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

This complaint is really interesting. At the RSN, user Sixula suggested that it was not the right place for this debate so I quit following that page, but a few minutes ago I was notified of this complaint here. I revisited the NOPV noticeboard to find that user Pinkerton jumped out of nowhere and made conclusions for everybody, and then ran to report me here and accusing me of refusing to compromise. Obviously, they did not bother to visit the Syrian Kurdistan Talk page to see what's going on. There has been a discussion going on for days, we have provided enough evidence, including the all-important Treaty of Sevres map (for non-experts, that post-WWI treaty in 1920 shaped all Kurdish statehood claims) and a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan". We also provided sources showing the initial use of this term. For example, this report by the highly-regarded International Crisis Group reads:

The PYD assumed de facto governing authority, running a transitional administration in what it, and Kurds in general, call Rojava (Western Kurdistan), including three noncontiguous enclaves: Afrin, Kobani (Ayn al-Arab) and Cezire (al-Jazeera region in Hassakah province).

This issue is really too long to explain here, so I would rather have people visit the Talk page mentioned above. In brief, two or three users are trying to show this as an entity that has long existed and three other users (at least) do not agree with that, and argue that this term was produced by Kurdish nationalists during the Syrian Civil War. We are not arguing about the presence of a Kurdistan or Kurds in Syria. Finally, this is a content dispute, and I have not broken any rules. Actually, admin intervention in that page would really be welcome. May be at least provide protection for now. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 02:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Above, the user has illustrated succinctly the problem with their WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:IDHT attitude and refusal to accept reality. Below, one can see a long list of sources that very much do talk about Syrian Kurdistan, explicitly, and by name. As a synonym for Western Kurdistan it can be found in geographical research before the First World War. The claim of the all-importance of the Treaty of Sevres is a lie ignorant of history and wilfully oblivious to the sources editors may peruse below. This user's insistence on claiming that a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan" is exactly the kind of false narrative they have been bludgeoning people with for months (years?). Any look at any of the works will show that the editor's POV is divorced from the real world, and is apparently vocally, partisan as regards the al-Assad regime and its opponents. Some sort of admonition is surely required.

• In the Dispersion. World Zionist Organization, Organization Department, Research Section. 1962. This book tells the tale od the Kurdish Jews who lived in the one hundred and nintey towns in what is now Iraqi, Persian, Turkish and Syrian Kurdistan
• Ghassemlou, Abdul Rahman (1965). Kurdistan and the Kurds. Publishing House of the Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences. (i.e. the present-day Turkish, Iraqi and Syria Kurdistan)
• Chaliand, Gérard, ed. (1993) [1978]. Les Kurdes et le Kurdistan [A People Without a Country: The Kurds and Kurdistan]. Translated by Pallis, Michael. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-194-5. Are these three regions - Kurd-Dagh, Ain-Arab, and Northern Jezireh - part of Kurdistan? Do they form a Syrian Kurdistan, or are they merely region of Syria which happen to be populated with Kurds? ... Syrian Kurdistan has thus become a broken up territory and we would do better to talk about the Kurdish regions of Syria. What matters is that these people are being denied their legitimate right to have their own national and cultural identity.
• Gotlieb, Yosef (1982). Self-determination in the Middle East. Praeger. ISBN 978-0-03-062408-7. While the Kurds in Turkish, Soviet, Syrian, and Persian Kurdistan were held in place with and iron fist, the Iraqi Kurds fought virtually alone throughout the 1960s.
• Bruinessen, Martin Van (1992). Agha, Shaikh, and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-018-4. The plains of Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan are the granaries of Iraq and Syria, respectively.
• Izady, Mehrdad R. (1992). The Kurds: A Concise Handbook. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-0-8448-1727-9. All of Syrian Kurdistan, half of central Kurdistan in Iraq, and about 15% of western Kurdistan is located in this warm zone. It contains the cities of Diyarbakir, Siirt, Mardin, Urfa, Qamishli, Afrin, Sanjar, Sulaymania, Arbil, Qasri Shirin, Ilam, Gelan, and Pahla.
• Kreyenbroek, Philip G.; Allison, Christine (1996). Kurdish Culture and Identity. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-329-1.
• Bruinessen, Martin van (1978). Agha, Shaikh and State: On the Social and Political Organization of Kurdistan. University of Utrecht. I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan. ... Most sources agree that there are approximately half a million Kurds in Syria.
• Mirawdeli, Kamal M. (1993). Kurdistan: Toward a Cultural-historical Definition. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies. Turkish Kurdistan, an Iraqi Kurdistan, an Iranian Kurdistan, and a Syrian Kurdistan
• Bulloch, John; Morris, Harvey (1992). No Friends But the Mountains: The Tragic History of the Kurds. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-508075-9. The British and the French made it clear from the outset that they were unwilling to surrencder those parts of Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan which fell under their control, and that an independent Kurdistan, if such an entity were to be created, would have to be in what was still Turkish territory.
• Jaff, Akram (1993). Economic Development in Kurdistan. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies.
• Gotlieb, Yosef (1995). Development, Environment, and Global Dysfunction: Toward Sustainable Recovery. Delray Beach, FL: St Lucie Press. ISBN 978-1-57444-012-6. The situation in Turkish Kurdistan is consistent with that of Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan.
• Meho, Lokman I., ed. (1997). The Kurds and Kurdistan: A Selective and Annotated Bibliography. Westport, CN and London: Greewood Press. ISBN 978-0-313-30397-5. The information the author gets concerning Syrian Kurdistan is abased on results from field research carried out in 1988 and 1990.
• Berberoglu, Berch (1999). Turmoil in the Middle East: Imperialism, War, and Political Instability. SUNY Press. ISBN 978-0-7914-4412-2. Then, in the 1920s, the Bedirkhan brothers introduced the Latin alphabet, which became standard in Turkish and Syrian Kurdistan.

GPinkerton (talk) 02:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

We are debating a specific term. Can you provide the quotes showing that, instead of showing "Kurdistan" or Kurds in Syria, etc.? One more thing, we are about to reach consensus on the Syrian Kurdistan page. This shows that your claim of me refusing to compromise is false. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Check out this discussion out of many going on on that Talk page. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

No, look at the sources yourself. Yours is the only voice on your side of this "debate". GPinkerton (talk) 03:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Ha ha ha. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 08:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Comment Actually me and other users also participated in the debate taking the same position as Amr. No on need to look at the sources themselves as the one who claims need to prove, so quotes and pages numbers should be presented. Finally, you can have tens of sources to support you but there are tens of them that support the other side and NPOV requires you not to ignore that. This complain is uncalled for and an attempt to force a measure from above to give one side of a long debate what they want! The users who are against Amr acts exactly like him, so if he is wrong, so are they. I am calling for an rfc to solve this.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 03:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Attar-Aram syria: All of what you're saying is not at all relevant. This is only about Amr's repeated attempt to prove the term "Syrian Kurdistan" does not exist or is a recent coinage, whereas in the real world it is a coinage many, many decades old. This is tendentiousness. GPinkerton (talk) 05:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Im telling you Im an active part of the debate and you are deciding for me that I am not? Seriously? You are now part of this content dispute, so go to the article's talk page.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 05:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

CommentThis has nothing to do with Amr. This is all Konli17's fault. That page has been quiet for months and then all of a sudden he comes back after a long break from editing and starts his POV pushing again. He changes Southern and eastern Turkey into Turkish Kurdistan, tries renaming every city in Northeastern Syria to its Kurdish name, constantly starts edit wars with other users, and manipulates sources to get them what they want him to say. Konli17 is the user that should be blocked because he’s not WP:HTBAE and is just here to push his agenda. You should really see his other edits before jumping to conclusions that it’s Amr's fault. Thepharoah17 (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Thepharoah17: if you want to make a report about an unrelated matter you need to do it elsewhere. GPinkerton (talk) 05:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

OK, per your request GPinkerton, I'll call on other people to weigh in on this. @Supreme Deliciousness:@HistoryofIran:@Al Ameer son:. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Thepharoah17, The page was stable until Konli17 returned and pushed his pov points. Shadow4dark (talk) 06:44, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

See an example here (out of tens or hundreds) for yourselves how user konli17 changes the meanings by simple tweaking and removal of sensitive words to fake/change content and removing sensitive words (such as 'at most', 'no more than') or changing 'encourage' to 'allow', 'many' to 'some', etc. Look at the long list of reverts and edit-warring in their edit history. Actually, they were blocked back in June for edit-warring. That is the user who needs to be disciplined here. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

This argumentation is obfuscation and unconvincing whataboutery. GPinkerton (talk) 05:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Since you have obviously decided to take sides in the dispute at hand, bring on your evidence in the form of quotes from the links above you copied from user paradise chronicle! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@عمرو بن كلثوم: It's more than obvious you are unwilling to read. None of these sources were copy pasted from anywhere. I just did the most basic Goggle Books search, and provided you with hyperlinks so you can easily verify that each one discusses "Syrian Kurdistan". How many times? The quote is the same in every book listed: "Syrian Kurdistan"! GPinkerton (talk) 05:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

My friend, you are the one making claims here. Bring me your evidence (e.g. quotes). It's not my role to prove your point, it's yours. Syrian + Kurdistan does not equal "Syrian Kurdistan". Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

One more thing, it seems you are the one refusing to read since you failed to see in the Talk page in question how many editors were on each side. Regardless of the opinions presented here, you claimed that I am the ONLY one representing this side of the story. Now you are attacking the other editor sharing my opinion here. You are trying hard to push your POV, same as you did as the NPOV noticeboard, ironic. Obviously, you are not qualified to judge or point at others. And let's keep this professional without personal attacks like you did above accusing me of supporting Assad regime (with no evidence whatsoever)! And by the way, on this note the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (who declared Syrian Kurdistan) are allies of the Assad regime and there is plenty of evidence that I will keep for another time. So, better do your homework before throwing accusation around. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Rank hypocrisy. I've expanded with quotes since you're too unwilling to lift a finger to pull the wool from your own eyes and read a book. GPinkerton (talk) 07:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Comment: There is nothing wrong with Amr ibn Kulthoums edits. "Syrian Kurdistan" is a lie and a fraud, there are editor at that page that are pushing kurdish nationalist propaganda lies and attempting to rewrite history. We should thank Amr ibn Kulthoum for standing up to the truth. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

More denialism. Just look at the sources! "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", all the way down! Your claim it is a lie and fruad is absurd. GPinkerton (talk) 07:29, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't know who is in denial here despite all the evidence. For the third time, I am asking you to provide actual quotes (SENTENCES) saying "Syrian Kurdistan" from before 2011. Good luck with that! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Can you read? Or do you only spew? Scroll up. Read. اقرأ GPinkerton (talk) 08:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Are you going to stop the personal attacks? What does that prove? You are always going to find some random authors (look at the author names) claiming things and naming things as they please. One of them is saying "I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan". The question is, is any of that reputable? Do you have an international map showing this, or do you have a respected paper/media outlet, international organization showing this from before 2011? Since you pick up languages so quickly, I'll challenge your French, why don't you read this article to update your history? The bottom line you are accusing me of pushing my POV but you are doing a lot worse. Cheers my friend. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 08:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh yeah sure. Read an article that has little to do with the topic at hand and that will convince me that all these respected academic sources are somehow worthless. What planet is this editor living on? On earth, Syrian Kurdistan is a thing. The idea the idea it didn't exist before 2011 is as laughable as the editor's understanding of epistemology. GPinkerton (talk) 08:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

WP believes in sourced content and two sides to the story. More personal attacks. I don't think I need to respond to that. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 09:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Ah yes the two sides of the story: "Syrian Kurdistan has never been uttered before 2011" (fairyland, POV) vs "Evidence for the existence of the term long before عمرو بن كلثوم would evidently prefer." (Earth, NPOV). Somehow I think including the highly idiosyncratic and patently wrong POV you are pushing without a shred of evidence should be given short shrift in consideration of WP:DUE. How much credence can we give these uncited illusions? GPinkerton (talk) 09:23, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• See also this User_talk:Thepharoah17#تحياتي Canvassing. GPinkerton (talk) 08:52, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

After your old argument of my one-person opinion failed, you are using a new tactic. How is this canvassing? Look at the user contributions! This user is very moderate, and not involved in any edit-warring. They participate in the discussion very positively. Check out for yourself! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 09:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd like to thank GPinkerton for opening this debate and I hope an admin would step in. As the one who filed the first two discussions about Syria Kurdistan, I'd like to add that there were already numerous high quality academic sources for a Syrian Kurdistan even before GPinkerton brought his sources. Amr Ibn will very probably not abide by academic sources has even removed[ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syrian_Kurdistan&diff=988047662&oldid=988045551&diffmode=source updated and new academic sources] before. To clarify: I have added high quality academic sources for a Syrian Kurdistan with no adaptions to the text, and Amr Ibn removed the sources. Amr Ibn doesn't seems to not like the fact that Kurds live in Syria and sees the Kurdish liberators from ISIS as occupiers. Other times he claimed that they are occupiers after they captured a town from ISIS is here, here. There are others as well. It would be similar if we'd portray the Greek or French Resistance fighting against NAZI Germany as occupiers of territory in France or Greece. I think this is a tough POV, as the vast majority of the media and probably all of the reliable academic sources view the areas liberated by from ISIS as liberated and not occupied. I seriously don't know, how this editor came through with this denialism of Syrian Kurdistan for so long with such an edit history.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, look who's speaking! An edit-warrior recently banned and who refused to abide by previous arbitration result by user Nightenbelle on a different page. Back to the page in question, we were reached a consensus before PC jumped in and started messing things up again. This prompted user Applodion, an editor on PC side of the story to remove part of PC's controversial edit there. Furthermore, user Sixula just chipped in and suggested an rfc. As a reminder, Sixula was helping with the NPOV case before user GPinkerton imposed themselves and jumped to conclusions. Again, I invite Admins to visit the Syrian Kurdistan page and Talk page (and other pages if they wish) to judge for themselves and see who the disruptive editor/s is/are. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

And, ISIS has nothing to do with this. You are basically saying "you can either be with ISIS or PYD/YPG Kurdish militia". Well, I don't want to be with either of those. This is not focus of this discussion or any other discussion I am involved in. We have a content dispute about the origin and adoption of the name Syrian/Western Kurdistan. Here is another academic reference saying PYD created the name rojava (West Kurdistan) (PYD invented rojava. P276 last paragraph). In the summer of 2012, the PYD took control of some towns in northern Syria which are predominantly Kurdish-inhabited. Over the following three years, the party expanded its territory and established a structure of autonomous government and associated institutions which it calls “Rojava” (west Kurdistan). Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Two of the editors who deny an existence of Syrian Kurdistan, user Amr Ibn and user Supreme Deliciousness wanted to move the page Syrian Kurdistan (Today called AANES) to Kurdish occupied regions in Syria in a move discussion in 2015.. Wanting to call Kobane Kurdish occupied in the midst of a siege of Kobane by ISIS... This might give you another insight into the mindset of the two editors. The edits of Amr Ibn are clearly tendentious and should have been seriously questioned by admins since years. For that an admin comes into the dispute.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Why should you support either ISIS or the YPG? The YPG-linked PKK and ISIS are both classified as terrorist organizations by the United States and the European Union. Is one really different from the other? Thepharoah17 (talk) 07:11, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

One doesn't have to support any of the two, but one can try to portray commonsense=vast majority of the academic views or an ISIL/Turkey POV which as to me, is not supported in any reliable source. The YPG is supported by the Global Coalition against ISIS consisting of 83 countries and NOT viewed as a terrorist organization by any country other than Turkey which literally imprisons academics for demanding peace.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:55, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

As Sixula told you on the NPOV page, "WP:COMMONSENSE is not viewed as a concrete argument, more as a "I believe my edit was common sense" but it is not something which you can repeat over and over, because if there is a lot of opposition clearly it isn't viewed as common sense." Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Please ping me when discussing things I've said on a separate page, I like to see what is being said about both me and my comments. Thanks, Sixula^Talk 23:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry Sixula, that was an oversight on my part. Thanks for your input. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 01:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Help needed with user Giolocam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Giolocam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user makes disruptive edits only on 2 different pages, I have warned him in his talk page as well as in the page of a Wikipedia librarian but he's now even trolling and mocking at my actions and warnings. 3 revert rule broken as well. Here is the librarian's page where I have warned him today trying to solve the issue. Instead of doing anything, he reverted and his replies have been accusations against me and reverting my changes, not even a tryout to prove his changes. Another user has warned him earlier as well but he kept making these changes instead of trying to solve anything, here is where I issued the warning, but he's now trolling about this issue and 988096613 he copied the warning I gave him in my own talk page. After I explained everything in Materialscientist's talk page with all of the sources, instead of proving his points, he reverted me again and he wrote: "The rest is his creativity derivided may be from Spanish complexes towards Italy. Sorry to write, but time to BAN HIM!" I tried to make an ANI against vandalism but an administrator saw this as a content dispute. Maybe it was a simple content dispute but instead to try to solve anything, he has started to troll and to make accusations against me in the talk page of Materialscientist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), just check Giolocam's edits.

I have also found that the page List of European countries by average wage had issues over the past months before it got protected, someone was boosting up Italian data writing in the same way and using the same invented numbers. 2A02:2F0E:117:F400:2007:2401:6477:844 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) , 2A02:2F0E:419:2100:A89B:2504:BBE:E6F4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) , 2A02:2F0E:419:2100:E1CA:149F:250D:272A (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I warned him and I tried to reach a sollution but as you can see, this user's replies are far from that but just adjust to 1. revert 2. accusations 3. copy & paste. This is much more than a simple content dispute about a page. Instead of trying to solve or to talk anything, he copied and pasted my warnings in my profile (he didn't even reply in his talk page) and in the ANI just changing his username to mine's. Isn't this vandalism? --Pfarla (talk) 02:43, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

And what about your worse behaviour Pfarla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ? Help needs to ban you. Please, check timing of all story. You posted several times not official sources and you vandalized List of countries by average wages. You reverted several times in few hours edits. Administrator already warned you to collaborate but it seems you are looking for war. You neither started to look for a solution seriously. Valid sources and numbers are on my side.Giolocam (talk) 02:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• All contributions have a date and an hour, right? I have tried to solve this in the talk page of Materialscientist (as he's a librarian) yet just check this user's replies and edits. He keeps reverting and then going to that talk page saying "I have the data" "You are vandalizing" "Ban him, it's complex against Italy" and such stuff that can be proven on the talk page of Materialscientist. This is what happened, you can check it:

1. I tried to solve the issue but this user keeps putting data that doesn't match anything he writes. He even deleted the official ISTAT Italian statistics source. 3 revert rule broken too, broken after I tried to solve this issue and after another user warned himself in his talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&diff=988093758&oldid=988092615

2. His replies have been direct revert, accusing me instead of even trying to solve anything, Just as I clearly explained in this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Materialscientist&diff=988095067&oldid=988093949 but the reply I got was this one, saying again to ban me and accusing me instead of proving his changes: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Materialscientist&diff=988095867&oldid=988095838

3. Not a single tryout to solve anything, just reverting: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&action=history just as he has removed the proper order in a similar page, just look at the numbers, he reverted it because of "vandalism" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_average_wage&action=history he now claims he wants to solve something after he done all of this, even if he got warned before.

4. Then he came to troll my talk page and the ANI directly making a copy paste about what I wrote, just switching usernames. I warned him in his talk page but instead of defending his position, he just made a copypaste with the same content in my talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Pfarla&diff=prev&oldid=988096613 and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=prev&oldid=988099403

5. Not even mentioning false accusations and attacks against myself in the talk page I have mentioned before. Proofs: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Materialscientist&diff=prev&oldid=988035154 and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Materialscientist&diff=prev&oldid=988095838

--Pfarla (talk) 03:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Try to collaborate as administrator wrote you twice instead of trollying. I already started explaining.Giolocam (talk) 03:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Another explanation with proofs: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Materialscientist&diff=988107855&oldid=988106848 it seems now reverting, accusating, asking for bans and doing copypastes is trying to "collaborate" --Pfarla (talk) 03:22, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm building in your friend talk while here you are trying to ban me. You are ignoring two times warning by administrator.Giolocam (talk) 03:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

What? This is ludicrous. All your edits/contribs are registered and just checking the talk page of Materialscientist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Materialscientist#Vandalism_in_the_page_List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage shows everything you've done. You are now more calmed after seeing the reply of an administrator, yet you still copypasted my warnings for no reason, without even trying to defend yourself. You have said before I have "a complex" or that "I don't like real data" just as you have asked twice for my ban in that talk page instead of even trying to show any source, just as what I did before. I don't even know why I write more if it's a complete waste of time, everything you have done is registered.

Instead of trying to prove your data or to expose your arguments, you've switched just to revert, accusate and then troll/vandalize my talk page as well as the ANI just doing copypastes of what I wrote. I have made this because of your behavior, not only because you broke the 3 revert rule and your disruptive edits. --Pfarla (talk) 03:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Materialscientist, it seems to me that the path of least resistance is to block them both. For the life of me I can't figure out what these two want. Drmies (talk) 03:39, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Drmies: Can you please explain what did I do wrong exactly? I have exposed my arguments trying to solve a dispute even if that data didn't show anything this user was claiming. This user started to accusate me and started to make ludicrous claims. He vandalized my talk page. He reverted everything I have edited today (I didn't revert more than 2 edits, to prevent breaking the 3RR) I have warned himself in his talk page, it didn't work, I got more accusations, now I made this regarding his behavior, not only because of his disruptive edits. Instead of doing the same stuff, I came here trying to solve it in the most legal way Wikipedia has. --Pfarla (talk) 03:45, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Your complaint is incredibly verbose and unclear, and in general your English is sub-par. Goes for your opponent too. There's not a sentence in here that's unproblematic, and there are so many problems with diction that I can't figure out who was supposed to have done what in the wrong way. They didn't "vandalize" your talk page; they repeated the warning, possibly mocking you, but in the end they mock themselves because it's in even worse English. And I don't see them repeating/trolling you here. But all that is just the thing: what is this about? Are they reverting you without cause? Then give them warnings or report them at WP:ANEW. Are they insulting your sensitivities? Warn them for personal attacks, and/or report them to AIV. But fighting it out on Materialscientist's talk page serves no purpose: in case you haven't noticed, MS ("the librarian"--is that his gangster name?) hasn't responded, it's just the two of you fighting. This report isn't helping anything either. Stop fighting and stop spreading all of this all over the place. Who the hell knows what y'all are fighting over--this? And neither of you have discovered the article talk page? Drmies (talk) 03:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
    • In some languages, admins are referred to as "librarians", for example at Spanish Wikipedia (though I do rather like the idea of admins having gangster names). BlackcurrantTea (talk) 10:04, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I reverted to just before Giolocam made an unexplained, disruptive edit, which was followed by a slew of unexplained disruptive edits by our two prize fighters, neither of which sought fit to discuss the matter on the talk page. Maybe a partial block of that article and whatever else they're fighting over is a solution. Drmies (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Drmies: his edits are still there, as he made them in 14th October: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&diff=prev&oldid=986972140 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&diff=983460002&oldid=983459891

Check this page too: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_average_wage and check Italy's position, also the chart from below which is a mess up, he also edited that page putting a wrong order to boost up Italian data. I didn't know how to act exactly, yes indeed my main issue was this user's behavior against me, more than his edits. --Pfarla (talk) 04:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• For goodness sake. I have partial blocked both form editing User talk:Materialscientist ‎, 'cause, damn. Any other admin may undo or modify at their discretion. I'm with Drmies here-- totally puzzled at all this. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 04:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
• I have partial blocked both x 1 week from editing List of European countries by average wage. Any admin may modify or unblock at their discretion. all we are saying-- is give peace a chance --Deepfriedokra (talk) 04:13, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
• @Pfarla and Giolocam: Now then. Do please discuss this content dispute on the relevant talk page. If at an impasse, please seek WP:dispute resolution, a WP:third opinion or open an RfC to help settle your dispute. Cheers, and thank you for helping build the world's largest free content encyclopedia. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 04:19, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra: But why did I get too a week ban from that page if I didn't make any edit war? I have stopped before breaking the 3 revert rule. It was the other user that broke it, I just inserted the consensual data on the page that was there before 14th October 2020, when this user changed them, you can check it. Why did I get a 1 week ban on that page if I didn't break any rule? I came here to solve the issue rather than just sticking to a non-ending reversion or edit war. --Pfarla (talk) 04:24, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

To give you the opportunity to discuss on the article talk page. If you are not going to continue to revert, then you do not need to edit the page till then. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 04:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra: But look, that user changed the consensuated aspect of the page in 14th October 2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&diff=983459891&oldid=983412883

Yesterday I've only inserted the real data that was there from a long time ago, also explaining carefully everything I wrote there and in the talk page of Materialscientist, where I have proven the data and the sources (which were there before 14th October 2020) even if I did get reverted for inserting the real data, I have also only reverted twice his changes, to prevent myself from breaking any rule. He needs to discuss to show his data is factual, as I just restored the page.

That user made as well exactly the same edits as other IPs before the page got semi-protected, and the only edits he made on the Wiki have been editing that page to insert the same numbers. This indicates he's only here to edit that page to boost up Italian data. Look at this: 2A02:2F0E:117:F400:2007:2401:6477:844 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) , 2A02:2F0E:419:2100:A89B:2504:BBE:E6F4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 2A02:2F0E:419:2100:E1CA:149F:250D:272A (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --Pfarla (talk) 04:37, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Pfarla, you're linking userlinks. Example WP:DIFFs would make evaluation easier. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra: The long explanation has probably lead to a misunderstanding situation. Can you please check this?

I was restoring the aspect of the page had before the Wikipedia:Single-purpose account user made such unsourced edits on 14th October 2020 using a currency exchange rate website that didn't show nor apport any data. I have restored the previous data just as I explained every of my edits in the page List of European countries by average wage just as I have explained every change in the talk page of Materialscientist, I still got reverted by that user who only said "he holds the real data" and accusing me of "inserting laugheable propaganda" and that kind of stuff. That happened again with myself trying to explain why his data got reverted, as it was unsourced while I got this answer in exchange.

So basically my point is asking him/her to prove the unsourced data (or why did he remove the previous data of that page) and I got 2 replies saying "people laugh at your propaganda" and "ban him, he's talking with a complex towards Italy" while I tried to mediate and I have shown proofs regarding my edits, which actually were just restoring the previous data the page List of European countries by average wage had. That's why I made an ANI against this user. I also recall on any admin to check again these edits, I don't understand why I got exactly the same punishment as the other user, while I firstly tried to solve this in a talk page just as I exposed all my arguments and sources, and instead of getting a 2nd part reply, I just got non-sense replies that didn't prove anything.

@Tenryuu: done, I have linked everything to edit diffs right now. --Pfarla (talk) 10:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• I just SP'd List of countries by average wage because an IP was making the same edits as @Giolocam: @Drmies: as they have experience with this mess. But it looks to me more and more like Giolocam needs sanctions. It annoys me that the parties to this dispute are not discussing on the talk page. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:49, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • User:Deepfriedokra, thanks for the note; I'm looking at it. What annoys me also is that Pfarla just can't seem to stop using so many damn words to make their point. In fact, I read over this entire thread looking for your message while attempting to not read theirs. Drmies (talk) 02:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I came here now as a suggestion of @Deepfriedokra: after I left a message on his talk page. In the page List of countries by average wage now an Italian IP 80.117.253.168 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is doing the same changes that "Giolocam" has done yesterday, I highly suspect this might be a sock account of the same user given the fact he's 1. Removing the proper order to mess up the table to put Italy in an higher place than it belongs and 2. Just exactly after he got a partial block he's doing the same edits as he did yesterday with his account.

I would also like to call @Drmies: to say when you reverted all of these changes in the page List of European countries by average wage, you have also reverted the edits of another user as well as my edits that didn't get even reverted by this Giolocam user (for example, this data) or as another example, this data where as you can see, I have explained my changes in both the edit summary and I have updated the sources with reliable data.

I also recall that the data inserted by this user is still there, as he inserted it in 14th October 2020, 4 days after he became a confirmed user and when he had 11 edits, all of them in another user's talk page. He waited to have 4 days and 10 edits to be able to edit that article. From my point of view, it's more than clear than this account is a Wikipedia:Single-purpose account made to be able to edit that semi-protected article.

Deepfriedokra, I tried twice to talk with him. I have warned him in his talk page and I got no replies. I tried to discuss with him yesterday when I tried to talk with him in an administrator's talk page, when I shown all the data backed up by the sources (previous data in that page before his 14th October edits), and instead of getting WP:BRD the only replies I got were things like "People laugh at his Spanish propaganda" or "you have a complex towards Italy" "ban him he's a vandal" instead of getting anything reliable or any tryout to back up his changes. What can I discuss/talk with such an user? I mean, I think it's clear about which kind of user we are talking about. Instead of even a small tryout to talk with me, I just got accusations and reversions. As he knows by himself that his data is obviously unsourced and none of the sources he has inserted do back up any of his changes. --Pfarla (talk) 20:56, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Deepfriedokra: Look at what I've just found. Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Benniejets this IP has the same IP range, and together with Giolocam, they have exactly the same edit pattern: "Bennijets has poor English level skills and tends to edit pages with a strong Italian POV and constant edit-warring". And the ISP from the unmasked IP is from Telecom Italia, just as this long-term abuse user has had. As actually his first 11 edits in Wikipedia were trying to convince an user in his talk page with a strong Italian POV instead of proving anything he was mostly trying to show some kind of Italian superiority like that long-term abuse user does. Just like the kind of replies I got yesterday "Pfarla has a complex against Italy" which is funny because I am Italian, but nevermind. Now we might be, most likely, facing a long-term sockpuppet. Can someone check this? --Pfarla (talk) 21:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)--
  • Ponyo, would you like to have a look at Giolocam? You were the last one to comment on Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Benniejets. You will note that I blocked a sock of Giolocam already. Thank you so much for your help...! Drmies (talk) 02:12, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• @Pfarla: Thanks for your patience. Please take this (juicy) information to WP:SPI if you can. (Ponyo and Drmies are wp:checkusers) I'm sorry this report did not get a more thorough read by the community. Hopefully it is being sorted now. No further need for the partial block on you. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:09, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Giolocam is indeed Benniejets. I've updated the block and tagged accordingly.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 20:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Threats and disruptive editing - Leonedagod95

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A few days ago I reverted a number of edits by Leonedagod95 (talk · contribs), because they appeared non-constructive or were not sourced. Other editors have also warned this editor about these poor/disruptive edits in the past (just have a quick look through their talk page). This morning I logged on to this message from Leonedagod95, which they admittedly immediately self-reverted. This is not the first outburst of foul/offensive/threatening language, see e.g. this. I think this editor is due a block. Thoughts? GiantSnowman 11:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Yep. Those attacks are severe failures of WP:CIVIL. Robby.is.on (talk) 13:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeffed. They don't get to do that and expect to keep editing privileges here, retraction or not. Acroterion (talk) 13:39, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Yup, a comment like that, retracted or not, is an instant indef on the spot with no warning in my book. Canterbury Tail talk 14:23, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks! GiantSnowman 14:22, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

POWERFUL 245

For several days POWERFUL 245 (talk · contribs) has been modifying several tracklistings of Michael Jackson pages. Powerful has been reverted by multiple editors and has been warned multiple times. It seems now that instead of discussing the changes (which are unsourced, by the way), Powerful has decided to start edit-warring. For example, at Talk:Pipes_of_Peace#Edit_warring, @JG66: ask them about the changes to the main page. For example, he tried to replace 1991 Dangerous with the 2016's re-issue of Dangerous[315]; 1987's Bad with 2013's Bad 25[316] (despite the fact that Bad 25 has a page). Like these 2, the other pages are the same, unsourced tracklist/replacing the original tracklist with the remastered version. Powerful was blocked at Commons for persistently uploading copyrighted images that would replace our non-free ones. So, this is a case of WP:COMPETENCE and as Powerful is not answering, I have decided to move it here instead. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 18:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I've also been confused by POWERFUL 25's behaviour. They've repeatedly made the same changes to track listings at Pipes of Peace (an album that Michael Jackson appears on), without including any explanation with the edits and then refusing to engage in any discussion. Not only is the change to a track listing template unnecessary, but they want to set the listing for the original (1983) release as if it's the 2015 "Archive Collection" reissue. I don't know what you do with this sort of disruptive editing: you end up violating 3RRR to correct their mistakes, and they just don't appear to acknowledge that anyone else exists on Wikipedia. JG66 (talk) 00:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

User:Sandbh, round 4

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Extended content

User:Jehochman recently closed the 3rd thread on User:Sandbh's behaviour above (WP:ANI#Trouble at WP:ELEM, round 3: conduct of User:Sandbh; link to be changed to archive when it goes there), on the grounds that it was much too long and convoluted, and recommended we proceed to arbitration to continue the dispute. However, I feel that my OP (once it was cut down to size) was not too long and convoluted. As can be seen, the thread was running normally for the first few days (25 Oct – 29 Oct), and people opined like a normal ANI thread. Then Sandbh saw fit to spam the talk page unceasingly, to which User:Johnuniq remarked I have been wondering how much text someone would have to post at ANI before they got a WP:CIR block. My OP read Despite previous discussion and User:EdChem having started to participate at ELEM and trying to keep us on track in a content discussion, User:Sandbh is still discussing editors rather than edits (sometimes to my mind going way too far), shows zero interest in following policy, and continues to refer to unpublished sources. And he still insists on his own idiosyncratic interpretation of policy, which is all visible at the 3rd thread. Meanwhile, there is still an inconsistency in how he argues for sources in analogous situations that seems to point to a POV-pushing issue, in which the only views he ever advocates are those he has published articles in support of, despite him needing to use mutually contradictory arguments to do that: see [317] and his reply [318]. He has not changed anything about his !vote in the ongoing discussion WT:ELEM#The actual formal group 3 proposal, which was used as an example in the 3rd thread to attempt to get through to him because he based it on unpublished sources and his own WP:OR interpretation of sources. (To be clear, I have no issue that his !vote disagrees with mine. I take issue with what he is basing it on for a discussion that will determine content.) Out of the five editors who recommended a solution, four recommended a TBAN (myself, User:DePiep, User:Softlavender, User:Levivich, and only one did not: User:Andrew Davidson. That was of course reasonable, a discussion was ongoing. And these all came in before Sandbh started spamming the ANI page; after that, it all became just a few people trying their best to resolve the issue (myself, Levivich, User:EdChem mostly), with a few onlookers making incredulous noises about the thread length on the sidelines. I am tired of having a simple and non-convoluted issue being dragged into something convoluted by Sandbh, who appears to have discovered a novel way of avoiding admin sanctions; post extremely long walls of text until no one wants to read it. In fact, he posted more text to the thread than everyone else combined, by his own count. There is nothing so complicated about this that anyone felt an escalation to arbitration was appropriate until he began to do that. I feel that this counts as a severe disruption of normal Wikipedia process on top of his previous behaviour. Therefore I start a fourth and hopefully final thread. I am tired of this behaviour and intend to collapse all wall-of-text contributions now that I have made the OP to avoid history repeating itself. I am tired of how difficult it appears to be to sanction this kind of behaviour effectively. I understand why Jehochman did what he did to close the thread, it really was incredible, but it was the editor whose behaviour was under scrutiny who made it so. If this behaviour doesn't stop and cannot be effectively dealt with, I'm just about ready to leave WP chemistry. Double sharp (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

to complain about someone posting long walls of text you post a long wall of text. Do you really think this is the way to proceed. The average visitor to this page isn’t going to take the time to do a close reading of this much material. You’ve got to distill it down to the essential complaint. Jehochman ^Talk 19:13, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Although I have no particular opinion about whether discussion should be re-started here or at WP:ARC (I couldn't be bothered to read all of the previous thread due to its immense size), I would note that word limits at ArbCom will help keep threads from descending into massive walls of text, which is probably why the closer Jehochman closed advising ArbCom. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 19:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore, the structured nature of ArbCom with the word limits ensures that everyone is heard. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 19:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

OK, thank you User:Jehochman and User:Dreamy Jazz. I will try to make it even shorter and have collapsed the first version. Double sharp (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Good idea. Thanks for doing that. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 19:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Double sharp, As the last discussion is nearly infinite, could you summarize the dispute here? In like three sentences? The links above seem to show that this is a content dispute, and I see no obvious ill action by sandbh besides some absurd WP:WALLs of text. Sandbh: gonna ask that you keep your replies to this thread very, very short. If you start posting WALLS, I'll just straight up remove them. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:25, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I do have to agree that this appears to be getting beyond what ANI can solve, and that if this isn't resolved very promptly this should get shoved off to ArbCom, who have the time, structure, and wherewithal to solve such a convoluted issue. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: OK, three sentences, I can work with that. Could I have a little bit of time to draft a short summary for it? Double sharp (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Double sharp, Take the time you need, but sooner is better. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

3-sentence version

This started from a content issue where User:Sandbh engaged in POV-pushing on WT:ELEM based on sometimes unpublished sources, and some of the POV-pushing went to articles. It became a behavioural issue because when he did that, he personalised the disputes needlessly and displayed a lack of interest in general understanding on policy in favour of his own idiosyncratic interpretations which no one else agreed with. Attempts to mediate it at WT:ELEM and ANI #3 by User:EdChem after previous ANI discussions did not lead to significant change and instead resulted in him spamming the thread above with extreme walls of text justifying his behaviour; the majority of editors who suggested remedies on ANI #3 suggested a TBAN.

(Is that good enough, CaptainEek? If not I can try even shorter.) Double sharp (talk) 19:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• (ec) I was pinged to revisit this. I observe that the good example recounted by Feynman has not been followed. Here are some numbers FYI, taken from a standard analysis of ANI. While Sandbh has made 163 edits of 188 Kb, Double sharp has made 183 edits of 107 Kb (and counting). As these seem much the same, this is a case of WP:POT and/or WP:SAUCE. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:38, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree that how I express myself is naturally long-winded, but after my initial OP was found too long on both ANI#3 and ANI#4, I was receptive to collapsing my posts and replacing them with shorter versions in both cases. OTOH, despite much noise having been made about Sandbh's walls of text, he never did anything of the sort. And that is the heart of my problem with this: at WT:ELEM everyone involved has had some fault, but everyone but Sandbh has made an effort to change. Double sharp (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @Andrew Davidson: Much of this was due to me trying (with EdChem) to engage and discuss policy with Sandbh, but since I agree it does not look good, I will voluntarily limit myself to three sentences per post from now on following CaptainEek's statement above. Double sharp (talk) 19:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
• TL;DR: 1. Sandbh is gaming the system. Then closed as: "much too long". 2. ANI cannot do discussion building. No self-improvement, so ANI be part of an ArbCom topic then.

Long: 1. Sandbh is gaming the system by flooding texts (not just here). Then closed as: "much too long and convoluted to resolve here". 2. So ANI cannot handle longer threads into discussion building. A twitterpage. As ANI cannot improve their own process, ANI process/page itself should be part of an ArbCom topic then (improve lousy juridical !?voting process). -DePiep (talk) 20:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

There are no diffs here. This is not a valid complaint, because valid complaint has the form of "I am complaining about @Bishzilla: who violates WP:TALK by posting dino-baby-talk nonsense [319][320][321]." Make an assertion, link it to a policy you think is being violated, and provide one to three exemplary diffs showing a violation of that policy. Jehochman ^Talk 20:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jehochman: OK, we did it in the ANI #3, but I will try to do it again. To not take more time, I will first go and discuss this with User:EdChem (who has been trying for some weeks already to mediate this), as he should be more familiar than me with exactly what constitutes the policy violation going on, and whether or not it is better to continue attempting to deal with the situation here or to escalate to ARBCOM. So, you may close this thread if you like while I discuss with him how best to proceed. Double sharp (talk) 20:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(non admin comment) This is the latest round in a pure content dispute at WT:ELEM. It has no place at ANI. If it gets brought back here yet again, it should be sent straight back to WT:ELEM where it belongs, perhaps with repeated recommendations of dispute resolution procedures such as WP:3O; unless there are credible well-diffed allegations of, for example, WP:BLUDGEONING, which merit an admin-level ticking-off.

(Full disclosure: I've commented in that seemingly interminable debate, and had smileys from both sides; even though I happen to think that one is right and one is wholly wrong.) Narky Blert (talk) 21:54, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Removing sources/ request revert

About the article Iman Farzin some editors are unfairly removing reliable sources, they even two important paragraph of the article. This is something out of ethics. Please revert edits, and let the AFD process close. 89.199.226.18 (talk)

Those deletions seem to be properly justified. The AfD process includes improvement of the article brought about by the notice of the community brought about by the publishing of the AfD. "Improvement" can mean adding sourced material, or it can mean removing unsourced, poorly sourced, inappropriate, or policy-violating material.

In any case, there's nothing for admins to do here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Of much more concern is the amount of socking and apparent off-site canvassing in the AfD itself. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

User:Aaihihada

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Hate to say this, but I have a very strong suspicion that User:Aaihihada is the same person as the indefinitely blocked User:Artyom1968 myartm123.

Significant numbers of questionable and unexplained edits have been made to license plate articles from both accounts, particularly to Vehicle registration plates of Wisconsin. And in both cases, most of the edits have involved adding plates that don't exist [322][323], changing the highest serials spotted (along with the corresponding dates) without any hint as to where these serials have been obtained from [324][325], and even adding complete nonsense [326][327].

I note that the block settings for User:Artyom1968 myartm123 were changed in late September so that they could not edit their own talk page, after they misused it (to put it simply). If User:Aaihihada is indeed the same person, then I can't help but wonder if the exact same block settings should be applied. Klondike53226 (talk) 23:45, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

If you think there is socking going on, Klondike53226, you should file a complaint at WP:SPI where a checkuser could investigate your accusations and evaluate your evidence. Most admins who frequent ANI do not have the tools to do this. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)C

Done. Thanks for the suggestion, Liz. Klondike53226 (talk) 10:12, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

USER:Toltol15 adding WP:OR and non WP:RS, and refusing to discuss [and other things]

Waiting for Toltol15 to reply.

I recently removed an addition by USER:Toltol15 to the Somalis page citing a non-peer-reviewed scientific preprint (thus not WP:RS) (which also did not directly concern the topic of the page) exaining my reasons in the edit notes. User:Toltol15 reverted me without engaging with my explanation. I reverted once more attempting to explain again and asked them not to edit war, and was again ignored by the user, reverted, and accused (confusingly) of POV (without explanation). To avoid edit warring, I have not reverted them a second time. I then posted on their personal page trying to explain again, asked them to engage/discuss (and perhaps self-revert) and warned them tbat I would report them if they did not discuss. They deleted my message and accused me of "personal page stalking". Since they have refused to engage with the topic (and seem to be behaving in an uncivil and dismissive way) I am filing a report here. Any help is appreciated.

Also, a discussion on the Talk page of History of archery with myself, Toltol15, and USER:Richard Keatinge concerning their (Toltol15's) addition of original research to that page and to Saharan rock art: [[328]]

I also removed some material Toltol15 had added to the San people page (with a detailed explanation in my edit note) and was reverted similarly dissmissively by them (there also, I have not reverted their edit/reinstatement, to avoid edit warring). My edit and note: [[329]] And the page's edit history with their reversion: [[330]]

And here is the edit history of Somalis for reference:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:History/Somalis

And the non-peer-reviewed source they have persistently added to it:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.01.127555v1 Skllagyook (talk) 01:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

(non admin comment) At Talk:Capoid_race#Link_to_Boskop_Man_removed and Talk:Somalis#Arab_scholars I got the impression that they didn't want to understand what other editors told them about OR and RS. Maybe they are still learning how things work. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

(another non - admin comment) Indeed, some urgent education is needed. Toltol15 doesn't seem to understand policy; more worryingly, they don't seem to understand their sources very well either. Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:11, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

User:Rsk6400, I see what you did and I thank you for it. Toltol15, you have the opportunity here, and now, to explain what you were doing--and to acknowledge, perhaps, that you may need to brush up on what count as reliable sources here. If you don't, you might find yourself blocked for disruptive editing, which here points at a lack of collaboration and communication, edit warring, and using unreliable sources. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 02:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Drmies:. It seems that Toltol15 has been active recently (has made a few recent edits, this past day I believe) but has still not responded, either to your warning on their page or to this report. I worry that they may begin to make problematic edits again without ever having replied here. About how much time will they be given to reply? Thank you Skllagyook (talk) 10:09, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

• Skllagyook, I see two edit where they're adding pictures, and gave edit summaries. I cannot in good conscience block someone for that, nor are we at a stage, I think, were we can just block for not responding in the first place. That can happen, and we have done that before, but really only in a scenario where for instance, after being warned in no uncertain terms, they make really problematic edits and refuse to acknowledge that. That hasn't happened yet. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 19:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @Drmies:, I understand. Thank you for your reply. If they begin to make disruptive edits at a later time, should I message you, or perhaps file another report (depending on when i occurs)? Skllagyook (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

A lot of difficulty removing copied and promotional content at Jerry Lorenzo

• Jerry Lorenzo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Telfar Clemens (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Hood By Air (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Giakuan (talk · contribs)

I'd appreciate more eyes. Giakuan is a paid contributor, who recently added mostly copied and promotional content to these two biographies. These are not massive blocs of copied material traceable to one or two sources; rather, every sentence or two, each copied or closely paraphrasing its source, which I've taken pains to explain. So this is the standard problem I encounter coming from two directions--the original compromised content, and resistance in removing or even tagging it. Requesting rev/deletion and any other appropriate measures. 2601:188:180:B8E0:202F:67D9:4B39:6338 (talk) 04:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I support the request. I had reverted one of the changes. I did not understand the whole problem or detect it from the edit summaries. Given the clever way these invalid edits were constructed, I think the request has merit. Donner60 (talk) 04:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I've added a third article, Hood by Air, which could also use some checking for copyright and promotional issues. Donner, you did more than revert once. 2601:188:180:B8E0:202F:67D9:4B39:6338 (talk) 04:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi 2601:188:180:B8E0:202F:67D9:4B39:6338 – appreciate the response, def not a paid contributor here, just like to dig around fashionn brands I like and all my sources are valid, though if I've innfringed on any copyright rules I'm happy to amend. Don't think anything posted was promotional since they are all notable and recent, factual sources from New York Times, LA Times.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giakuan (talk • contribs) 04:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• There is NO doubt in my mind that Giakuan is a paid editor, but since I've edited an article or two here I'd like for another admin to have a look at this and make the call. Drmies (talk) 02:41, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
  • A new account, with a coincidental similar field of interest, Dgirl4ever (talk · contribs). 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 18:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Multiple breaches of WP:ASPERSIONS by Double sharp

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am complaining about @Double sharp: who has posted allegations at WP:ANI about my conduct, without providing diffs, in violation of WP:ASPERSIONS.

Allegations by Double sharp against me

• I have shown zero interest in following policy: [331]
• WP:SYN objections to my approach of article writing in general: [332][333]
• I am still discussing editors rather than edits: [334]
• Non-stop attributing of motives to other editors: [335]
• "Spamming" elevator shafts' worth of text: [336]
• In my account, somehow everybody is at fault, except me: [337]
• There is no way to "improve the article" but mine: [338]
• I continually suggest new ANI protocols: [339]
• Continued flagrant disrespect for policy, now in the form of WP:IAR abuse: [340]
• POV-pushing went to articles: [341]
• At WT:ELEM everyone involved has had some fault, but everyone but me has made an effort to change: [342]

--- Sandbh (talk) 04:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I just counseled this user and showed them how to collect diffs and file a proper report. This counseling was done after the last diff you presented. Thank you for making a very nicely formatted complaint. It's excellent in form, but probably isn't actionable because it's not fresh. When a user has been counseled, we have to give them a chance to put the good advice to use. I recommend you withdraw this for now, but if there are fresh violations, I will be keen to hear about them. @Double sharp:, do you now understand that if you say something negative about another editor you need to back it up with evidence (usually in the form of diffs or links) where the negative statement is made. We don't allow "casting aspersions" without having evidence attached. Please confirm you understand this, and then I think we are done for now. Jehochman ^Talk 04:34, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Observation. First bullet: Double sharp did provide a diff: [343]. Ds also quoted from the diff. The diff provided has this text by Sandbh: I have zero interest in WP:POLICY and the opinions of the bush lawyers at WP:ANI. I have zero interest in citing POLICY within our project. Also, the diff in first bullet is from a post at this ANI-page, from a thread already closed. The question for ANI is whether this is acceptable process.

Of the 12 diffs provided here, I count ten from his ANI page (possibly closed threads). "nicely formatted" maybe, but needs to be scrutinised for substance. -DePiep (talk) 06:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

All of these were already substantiated in that very ANI thread that I started and User:Jehochman closed. I provided the diffs there, I provided the quotes there. In fact, some of them were right from the start of the ANI #3 where all the diffs were. Now a new thread has started, and it seems that since the previous thread went to so much length, nobody is familiar with it anymore. Backing it all up will pretty much mean exactly revisiting those very issues in the ANI #3, that were being addressed at least until the thread got derailed by Sandbh started to post his incredible walls of text and was then closed.

I am sure DePiep, User:Softlavender, User:EdChem, User:Levivich, User:Games of the world can tell us exactly how substantiated all of this was since they participated in the ANI #3 and should be familiar with the situation. I can start collecting the diffs afresh from it, but it will take time. Double sharp (talk) 09:09, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Diff collections:

• "zero interest in following policy": [344] I have zero interest in WP:POLICY and the opinions of the bush lawyers at WP:ANI. I have zero interest in citing POLICY within our project. (already presented in my ANI #3 first report)
• "WP:SYN objections": [to be added ...]
• "discussing editors rather than edits" + "non-stop attributing of motives to other editors": [345] [346] (already presented in my ANI #3 first report)
• "elevator shaft's worth of text": quite difficult to find a single diff because User:Sandbh tends to post his in multiple edits, but here's one: [347]
• [rest to be added ...]

I will finish finding the other ones soon (I am busy IRL but will try to get it done soon), but here is a start. Frankly, I find it extremely disingenuous that these are being presented as "aspersions" out of context, particularly when some of them formed part of the opening post of an ANI thread with the evidence attached. It makes me think that User:Softlavender indeed had a strong point when she said in ANI #3 [348] Sandbh was and is by far the most disruptive editor in the whole bunch. He is neither cooperative nor honest, nor able to take guidance or instruction, much less follow policy or guidelines. Because this is simply not honesty to take me out of context, and is simply against all the guidance Levivich gave [349] at ANI #3 about what are and what are not WP:ASPERSIONS. As he noted, even the more incendiary of the early statements were not ASPERSIONS because they are evidenced and arguably have reasonable cause, the evidence having been provided in ANI #3 (and which I am trying to collect over here again). Double sharp (talk) 09:15, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post close note As neither party has done so, I have gone ahead and filed a request for arbitration [350] CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:52, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Request WP:REVDEL

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please WP:REVDEL personal attack by User:Lolyouthinkthisishelping contained in this edit summary. NedFausa (talk) 16:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The page itself is deleted (all edits and edit-summaries) and User:SuperGoose007 left a strong warning. DMacks (talk) 16:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I've blocked the user for NOTHERE. Their edits that weren't deleted are just as telling. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:52, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:William Dudley Pelley promoting far-right figures in articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User (whose username is a former US fascist politician, not sure if that would qualify under UAA) keeps inserting unsourced or flimsily sourced references to a far-right folksinger in various articles. Also did personal attacks as well.

Diffs: [351] [352] [353] [354]. Others can be found in user contributions. Pinging User:LuK3 who gave OW for personal attacks. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 19:43, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Done. I think this balances out the now-indef-blocked jerk in the previous section, reported by NedFausa? A-holes on both sides! Drmies (talk) 02:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deceptive edit comments and disruptive editing by Stonkaments

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Stonkaments (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2020 United States racial unrest (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• A thread Talk:2020 United States racial unrest § Opinionated language in Social Impact section was created approximately a week ago by Lmomjian about a sentence cited to three different RS. HaeB suggested the statements in question need better sourcing and attribution. Stonkaments deleted a portion of the sentence including its source with the edit summary “removed challenged and unsourced claim per talk page discussion” while presenting this edit in the talk page as seems unsupported by the current source. Nearly a week ago I posted at the talk page a note that the deleted sentence fragment was indeed cited (and had already inquired as to what possible form further support might take) but Stonkaments did not elaborate on any reasoning as to what was lacking in the source.
• Yesterday Davide King restored the deleted material and its cite and some other material, asking in the edit summary “sources spoke of "reckoning" and why was this removed”; Stonkaments reverted them with the summary “it was removed because of consensus on the talk page”. Note that this behavior appears to be described in the essay WP:SHAMCONSENSUS. (Though maybe it's just a matter of lying about a lack of consensus instead; it's difficult to tell because all discussion went into abeyance once I pointed out that cited material had been removed under a false pretense.)
• Today I restored Davide King's changes, pointing out via edit summary that what the talk page reflects is that the material “was deleted under the false pretense of being uncited”; and Aquillion added an additional source. Stonkaments then deleted the same sentence fragment with Aquillion's additional source and in the edit summary ordered everyone to “get consensus on talk page”, without yet having responded there to Davide King's question about the deletion of his edit from six hours previous.
• An important bit of context is that this section of the article is the result of a merge from a deleted article Talk:2020 United States racial reckoning § Merger proposal created by Czar which, notably, Stonkaments was among editors trying to preempt formal closure of on the pretext of a WP:POLL majority. My suspicion at the time was that merging into a an article with a different topic was an attempt to gain leverage in deleting material and this appears to be happening; half a dozen or more completely different rationales for deleting this single sentence fragment have been presented by different users in the talk page so far.
• And for example Stonkaments simply deleted 4½k of cited content originating from the merged article; when another editor caught it and reverted them, Stonkaments re-reverted, saying “Just because material is properly sourced does not mean it belongs in the article”—about material they'd only ten days earlier been impatient to merge in because it supposedly was not independently notable.
• There is also the matter that this article, the target of the merge, has received enough of a heightened level of attention from all quarters so as to have been mentioned in the popular media: “The White Extremist Group Patriot Front Is Preparing For A World After Donald Trump” at BuzzFeed News last month. So it seems to me that another objective in merging may have been to get the content under more sympathetic scrutiny.

The initial content issue appears resolved for the moment and my motivation in coming to ANI is exclusively the issue of user conduct. This appears to be a pattern of tendentious, if not more generally disruptive editing, by Stonkaments accompanied by intentionally deceptive edit summaries in article space. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 03:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry we had to come to ANI rather than resolving our differences personally. Here are my initial reactions:

When I originally deleted the challenged text, it had only one cited source, not three—and two other editors had already voiced their opinions that the source didn't adequately support the contested claim. Given that I felt their arguments were well-reasoned, and I was the third editor challenging the claim vs just one defending it, I determined that there was consensus on the talk page and stated that in my edit summary. Calling that an "intentionally deceptive edit summary" seems like a clear failure to WP:Assume good faith.

As I stated on the talk page, per my understanding of WP:BURDEN, I felt the onus was on editors seeking to restore the material to point us to a reliable source that directly supported the contested claim. Struthious Bandersnatch's arguments all struck me as WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, so I didn't see any justification for restoring the contested claim.

Concerning the 4½k of deleted content from the merged article, I started a discussion on the talk page and didn't receive any response or pushback following the initial revert. Many editors voiced concerns about the quality and WP:POV of the merged article, so I don't find it particularly noteworthy to have deleted one unencyclopedic paragraph from such an article.

I would like to point out Struthious Bandersnatch's uncivil behavior on this same talk page: accusing editors of making unserious arguments and "finger-wagging", and making personal attacks about an editor's "low bar for what constitutes education". They are also currently the subject of an enforcement request. Stonkaments (talk) 08:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

You're doing it right here in the faces of administrators—you linked to a diff above in which you yourself wrote, I removed the two intro paragraphs of the "Social impact" section, but they have since been restored by User:Davide King, and then you've characterized that here as didn't receive any response or pushback following the initial revert.

There are limits to AGF and you have blown past them all. Like I said on your talk page, this is not an innocent misunderstanding.

Another user, who was also involved in the merge effort I describe above, has filed a report against me at WP:AE, if anyone wants to read about unserious arguments and the rest. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 09:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Without getting involved heavily in the disagreement, I would like to claim that Struthious Bandersnatch seems bent on adding highly controversial claims to articles without proper evidence and support. When questioned he brings up his own reasoning rather than citing a reliable source that directly supports his claim in an empirical way. Struthious Bandersnatch is not in agreement with NPOV concerning his edits. Thank you Lmomjian (talk) 17:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I would just like to echo Lmomjian's points and also bring up that Stonkaments has been an excellent contributor on other articles that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. QRep2020 (talk) 19:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Lmomjian and QRep2020: You don't have to get “heavily involved” to comment on at least one specific topic of this discussion—whether Stonkaments's edit summaries I quote above were truthful. their general character, while pertinent in a discussion of editor conduct, does nothing to justify WP:SUMMARYNO deceptive misuse of edit summaries.

Stonkaments seems intent on discussing this matter extensively off-noticeboard. Anyone can of course read the full exchange by following the link to their talk page at the top, but I'll reproduce their latest comment and my response here as I think it showcases further intentional deceptive behavior:

I'm sorry I didn't respond, but what response were you expecting? The source that was cited did not support the contested claim, hence "unsourced claim". You unfortunately failed to address my request to provide anything from a reliable source that directly supported that claim, instead providing disparate facts that were WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, and have now managed to antagonize three different editors on that talk page. I'd suggest reflecting on your own actions, as it may help understand why I might not have felt interested in continuing an unproductive back-and-forth with you. I happily continued the discussion when other editors weighed in.

to which I replied

Nice try at pulling a WP:DONTGETIT, but the “unsourced” sentence fragment you deleted attributing a list of specific U.S. racial disparities as the result of overt discrimination and unconscious bias relative to the general population is cited to an article in the Harvard Civil Rights–Civil Liberties Law Review (the citation you simultaneously deleted and had a week to verify while the content you object to wasn't even in the page) which says, of the exact same list of fields in which disparities are present, recognition builds of the many ways that racial inequality manifests both explicitly and implicitly.

The response of an editor acting in good faith would have been to acknowledge this, to retract OR and SYNTH claims (notably SYNTH is not directly applicable to talk pages anyways), and to not revert two editors other than myself who restored the content—the editors you “happily continued the discussion” with after reverting their cited additions of content to the article with a completely different WP:SHAMCONSENSUS claim, knowing very well that the material was neither unsourced nor did consensus support its removal.

--‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 02:19, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Copying my talk page reply here, as I vigorously reject the unfair accusations of dishonesty and deception:

With all due respect, your reading of that excerpt is wrong—in no way does it support the contested statement. Note that it says ...the many ways that racial inequality manifests [emphasis added] both explicitly and implicitly. That is an affirmation that these inequalities indeed exist, and manifest themselves in myriad ways, but it makes no claim about the causes or origins of the inequality. The article goes on to talk about the ways in which racial inequality manifests itself in the criminal justice system through disparities in arrests, sentencing, etc. It makes one mention of unconscious bias in relation to NYC's infamous stop-and-frisk policy, and notes that Drug War-era policies were racially motivated, but besides that it refrains from making any claims about the causes of the racial inequalities it highlights. And those two isolated mentions are nowhere near enough to support a broad claim about the causes of racial inequalities across "education, health care, housing, imprisonment, voting rights, and wages", be it overt discrimination or unconscious bias or any other.

I would please ask that you at least consider the possibility that you're wrong here—about what exactly this source is saying, specifically, but also about my editing and my intentions more broadly. I'm still fairly new here, and I'm sure there are plenty of things that I can improve. But I don't take accusations of dishonesty, deception, and acting in poor faith lightly, and I would appreciate an apology.

(It's my understanding that an extended back-and-forth on the ANI page can often be unhelpful, so that's why I prefer responding here.)

Stonkaments (talk) 08:32, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

• This looks like a content dispute. What kind of outcome are you seeking from admins? SarahSV ^(talk) 04:06, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
  • It is a content dispute, and the editor who posted this complaint has engaged in misbehavior themselves at that page and thereafter, as well as exhibiting a major problem with their approach to the topic. As they noted above, I filed this at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Struthious Bandersnatch. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:53, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
    • @SlimVirgin: There are no outstanding content matters related to the sentence fragment Stonkaments has repeatedly deleted over the past week; this is a user conduct matter. The issue is that this is all over a handful of words written four months ago directly corresponding to the wording in the source, a law journal; yet multiple editors have had to invest substantial efforts to maintain this tiny part of the article in response to repeated deletions under false pretenses by Stonkaments, who simply stopped communicating at the article talk page.
      This seems like the very definition of disruptive editing to me, and is representative of the scant other edits by this user I have examined. So the outcome I am seeking is whatever measures are appropriate to prevent disruptive editing.
      Edit: also, I should have noted earlier—this article is also under AE AP2 page restrictions. I'd somehow overlooked it before but Stonkaments has received the AP2 {{DS/alert}}, as have I.
      (I'd also point out, in response to Stonkaments's most recent comment above, that this is more dissembling—subtle variations in wording in the source do not explain or excuse all the deceptive edit summaries, non-communication on the talk page about that wording, or deletion of cited content restored by multiple editors. Reading the full excerpt also makes it quite clear that the source is indeed talking about causes of racial disparities; see Stonkaments's talk page for my full response.) --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 09:42, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
      • Struthious Bandersnatch, please don't accuse other editors of "lying", [355] particularly not in edit summaries, and it would be helpful if you would create edit summaries rather than have your posts appear on watchlists. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:56, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Qiushufang

Very greetings Wikipedia administrator friends and sorry to disturb you from any work that you were doing.

Had contributed for other people to help themselves to the following article that is named http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder but recently when someone adds something new a stubborn user with so called name Qiushufang pops out as a gremlin and always deletes the additions unnecessarily.

Then every time someone tries to undo the deleted additions are again being deleted by "mister" Qiushufang that writes to the view history and talk pages lots of "excuses", as if he "edits" to make a biased "point" or something and seems to have monopolized the whole article.

Such persons force you to take out your worst self against them.

Any ideas what should be done about that stubborn user.

Thank you very much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.42.214.85 (talk) 13:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) IP editor, you must notify the person whom you are reporting on their talk page. I have done so for you this time. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:06, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

At a closer glance it appears that Qiushufang is reverting edits made from allegedly open or anonymising proxies. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Update: The OP has been blocked for using a supposedly open or anonymising proxy. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:19, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Edit-warring and attempting to short circuit deletion discussion

User:WilliamJE is edit-warring and attempting to short-circuit an ongoing discussion. He has re-added a speedy deletion tag at Category:Basketball players from New York City three times in 9 minutes. He has refused to engage with me on the talk page and instead bombed my talk page with warning templates.--User:Namiba 14:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

WP:G4 reads- This applies to sufficiently identical copies, having any title, of a page deleted via its most recent deletion discussion. Oh and categories have been speedy deleted because of 10 year old CFDs before. Check here[356]. The original basketball players CFD can be found here[357]....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The complaining editor raised the categorizing of sportspeople by US city less than 6 months ago at a talk page. The reception wasn't positive.[358] Plus there have been a half a dozen at least CFDs on similar categories. There is a strong consensus against....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk about a NYC sportspeople CFD, here's one for Rowers[359]. It took place in 2019....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:21, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@WilliamJE: Just start another CFD. This shouldn't need to be a federal flipping issue.
Namiba and you clearly disagree in good faith here. Cool? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 16:22, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Could use a second pair of eyes at 8chan

There are some IP editors making some legal threats regarding the inclusion of a link to the 8chan website on the page about 8chan. I can see their argument that we shouldn't include the external link, but an uninvolved admin to help out with the edit war and legal threats would be appreciated. GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:14, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I did not make a legal threat; I removed a link to Child Pornography from Wikipedia that violates US Law and Wikipedia Policy. I was trying to get you to understand the situation and defer to legal staff at Wikipedia to make a determination. Wikipedia should not be linking to Child Pornography Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 16:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is also creating a liability for people such as myself who have used Wikipedia in good faith and INADVERTANTLY (and because of Wikipedia) landed on a link distributing Child Pornography. This is an extremely serious issue and concern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 16:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Just noting here that 71.203.10.104 has opened a discussion at WP:DRN#8chan. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

That discussion has now been closed under the reasoning of WP:NLT and because this particular discussion is also taking place here at WP:HAPPYPLACE.--WaltCip-(talk) 19:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

For now, I think we should just leave that link out until we reach a consensus on the matter. No harm can come of that. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Second that as well. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:35, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

None of us are lawyers (and those who are are not on the job). Pending a potential WP:OFFICE action (they might be interested in the subject), I don't think the legal argument is a good one. That being said, a link to 8chan doesn't provide any value whatsoever. -- Luk ^talk 00:13, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. We're not lawyers, but it's well within our capabilities to decide not to link to a site where we may inadvertently direct our readers to such content. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Despite denying they are making legal threats above, I can't see how their latest comment saying "A link to Child Pornography has the unwitting effect of making Wikipedia Editors, Users, and Administrators Law Breakers. Law Breakers in the worst sense because a single Cached image from an unintentional viewing of Child Pornography meets the standard for prosecution." is anything but. I agree that the link probably ought to be omitted from the article, but the WP:NLT need to stop. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I highly doubt that anyone who wants to go to 8chan, out of curiosity or whatever, needs a link from us to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that linking to a site that ALSO hosts child pornography (or copyvio material, or whatever illegal stuff) EQUALS 'linking to child pornography'. That being said, IMHO this site would qualify for wholesale blacklisting because there is material on the site that we should not be linking to (and we should do our utmost best to make sure that it does not get linked), but a whitelist rule should be instated to a 'neutral landing page'. Although on a different level, we can link to sci-hub, we cannot link to a lot of the material hosted on sci-hub, thus the website is blacklisted, the root is whitelisted. For that, I think the IP was wrong here, as is removal of the root link. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 16:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Issues regarding competence of Cristianpogi678

Summary: User:Cristianpogi678 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been bombarding typhoon season and storm articles recently with edits of questionable quality, while at the same time ignoring attempts at communication (along with blanking talk page edits about their edits). Most of their edits display signs of problems regarding competence, and attempts at correcting these have not worked.

This starts as far back as their second edit on August 28, which I had to fix due to the evident problems in English. Knowing that they were a new editor, I simply brushed it off as I assumed good faith, and that maybe their future edits would be better. For the next two months, their edits were mostly unproblematic, and involved simple linking and addition of hatnotes (although some of which still had a lot of typos and the like). However, the past month has been filled with problem edits, mixed in with the maintenance work previously done. This maintenance work had even decreased in quality, as it began to break MOS:LINK and other style guides.

This user has repeatedly inserted problematic content in a significant portion over their near-900 edits, of which diffs are provided below. Since the list is rather long, I've collapsed it for readability.

Extended content

Bad style issues. Issues with English, WP:SHOUTING (both in summaries and content), and a general lack of understanding (nor consideration, as I have linked them to the MOS multiple times) of the MOS. Also issues with WikiProject Tropical cyclones' own style guide. Special:Diff/976873936 – Shouting, English issues Special:Diff/983744379 – Actually decent, although the quality isn't the best. I later fixed this. Special:Diff/983817610 – Unintelligible text, which they tried to fix in 3 edits. Later reverted. And while I was writing this, another problematic edit with style issues. and a lot more of this, but collecting all the diffs would take a lot of time. You can just take a stroll through their contributions instead, and looking at the edits labeled "ADDED". (Mostly small-scale) copyright violations. This user repeatedly copied headlines, tweets, article texts, and other similar texts with no paraphrasing. These were (as far as I can tell) their only edits where they had proper grammar. 18 edits introducing copyrighted content to Mayon. Later reverted by an administrator, who issued a warning which was later reverted by them along with 4 attempts at an apology. Special:Diff/976479684, an insertion of content from the NDTV. Special:Diff/987651732, an insertion of a tweet by "Earth Shaker PH", word-for-word. Copying within Wikipedia without attribution. This was done at least an additional five times. 1, 2, 3 from 2020 Pacific typhoon season, 4 from Typhoon Saudel, 5 from Typhoon Vamco (2020), and a lot more insertions to 2020 Central Vietnam floods from various articles. I did warn them about this as early as [1]. Unwillingness to communicate nor cooperate. Their talk page history speaks volumes of an unwillingness to cooperate, evident by the repeated removal of warning templates, along with efforts at communication. Removal of a copyvio notice, which I mentioned earlier. Removal of a copyright information message. Removal of a internal copying notice (WP:CWW). Removal of my message explaining my reversion of their edits. Removal of my message informing them of multiple Wikipedia policies, which included a request at communication. Edit-bombarding pages, rapidly inflating the revision count. Almost all of these edits are less than 100 characters. This user never seems to show previews, and instead chooses to publish changes immediately, with no regards to whether the edits are of quality or not. The first 3 pages (when sorting by 50) of the page history for the Taal Volcano is nearly filled with their name. Scrolling through the histories of Typhoon Vamco (2020) and 2020 Pacific typhoon season show many edits by them, most done one after the other.

After all that, I realized it was time to drop the good faith assumption. I thought to myself that as soon as I saw that user edit another one of the pages on my watchlist, and if that edit was problematic, I'll revert them just like I do the standard process on Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol. However, I was still holding back, as evident by the 4 warnings I issued, of which three were all level 2 warnings since they were of different reasons, and since I didn't want to escalate it into a level 3 warning. As expected, they reverted those warnings and continued to blank all of the warnings and messages left about their edits on their talk page. Since removing warnings isn't against policy, I let it slip by once, and I issued another reminder. Even this was reverted, along with all items on their talk page.

That was the final straw for me. They have failed to communicate and improve over the past 3 months, so I issued a stern message warning them of the consequences of even more disruptive editing. Only then did they ever respond to me as they tried to apologize with a badly-written apology which reads like an elementary English student wrote it (their user page is not any different, unfortunately), of which they even tried to fix three times. After this, they restored the warnings I issued previously, along with the first message I ever sent them regarding their edits (but not the one informing them of policy.) I expected this to be the end of the story, but lo and behold, they're back at their problematic edits with half-baked English, of which they even self-tagged with {{Rewrite}}. Knowing that this will never end and that I would have to deal with this user's problematic English for awhile, I've decided to take this to ANI.

The user shouts in their inserted content and edit summaries and shows a clear lack of interest in communicating with other editors, a lack of improvement after a near month of waiting for change, and a clear lack of competence as required from a Wikipedia editor. I understand that their likely making their edits are somewhat substantial and contribute to some extent, but this is already reckless. I've already exhausted all my options (talk page messages, summary mentions, warnings) which leads me to the final one: ANI. I just don't see how this user will be able to contribute a net positive if me and other editors have to mop up the mess they leave behind. Since I don't see this stopping soon, I'd like to request the administrators to please decide what to do with this user, since I am already tired of cleaning up after them. Many thanks! --Chlod (say hi!) 15:21, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Update: This user is now under investigation on Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Cristianpogi678. Chlod (say hi!) 00:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Complaint by Coastside

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

An editor opened a DRN case on the topic Russell Islands here.

The case was between an editor and three admins. As a volunteer, I opened the case and followed process.

Drmies, who is an admin, entered the following as his dispute summary:

I do not understand why anyone would pick a fight with Diannaa over something like this, and the time has come for an uninvolved admin to determine whether NOTHERE applies for this editor. User:Toddst1 and I have, I think, made up our minds about it.

As a consequence of the threatening language by an admin in this case, the user who opened the case wrote privately on my talk page that he was afraid of retribution and thought he should discontinue with the case. His private comment to me is here. I did the best I could to support this editor and to assuage his fear. No editor should feel fear from admins when they are trying to follow process and are legitimately using talk pages to express their concerns. That's true even if they are being uncivil, which was not the case here. The other editors might have found his comments annoying and long-winded, but that's not reason for an admin to threaten him; certainly not in a DRN dispute summary anyway.

I raised a concern about his comment on his talk page here. I explained I was very bothered by his behavior as an admin and why.

His response was to pick me apart and to accuse me of having a "mighty horse".

This is admin abuse. [I meant this to refer to the issues I raised on Drmies's talk page - not to the snarky comments].

The primary concern I have is that an admin would disrupt an editor's ability to participate in a DRN case by threatening them with retribution. This is very harmful. Every editor has a right to use appropriate channels of conflict resolution, even if the other editors are admins. The other editors don't have to participate - they can decline to participate or they can simply ignore the DRN request. If that happened I would have simply closed the case for lack of interest. Instead this admin decided to enter a threat into the dispute summary. That's completely inappropriate. He also made other comments, which I mentioned in my complaint on his talk page, which were demeaning to the other editor and trivialized the dispute resolution process.

Finally, his response to my expression of concern was completely inappropriate. I followed process as best I could in the DRN case and by expressing my concerns in Drmies's talk page. An appropriate response by an admin to serious concerns about his behavior should be taken seriously. He didn't do that and chose instead to be defensive and then to attack the way I handled the DRN. The complaint wasn't about the DRN dispute itself or my handling of it, and he knows it. It's about how he needs to be more careful not to intimidate other editors. This shows a lack of recognition about his special status as and admin.

Wikipedia is seriously weakened as a platform when admins are abusive. Editors need to feel safe. If an admin abuses their position and threatens other users simply because they feel annoyed or frustrated, then they don't understand their role as an administrator or the appropriate behavior for an administrator. Coastside (talk) 16:31, 13 November 2020 (UTC) [updated to clarify] 18:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• Coastside, please do your due diligence: I never talked about your horse--that was User:Jehochman, and now we're here I think it's clear he has a point. Drmies (talk) 16:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Added talkback notices to aforementioned users' talks. — Yours, Berrely • ^Talk∕_Contribs 16:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

You're right. Because you didn't indent your reply I read that comment as coming from you. That's besides the point. The fundamental issue here is that you threatened an editor such that this user felt compelled to leave me a private note that he feared retribution for opening a DRN case. That's not ok. Your response shows you don't take that seriously. Even here, why are you picking me apart? I'm not arguing the case or being defensive about how I handled it. I'm raising legitimate concern about how you as an admin were threatening instead in a case of dispute resolution. You're diverting attention to my behavior. I'm trying to follow process here and you aren't taking it seriously.Coastside (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• This was Drmies response to your accusation of "admin abuse." Now you're characterizing that response as further admin abuse? OK. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:45, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm trying in good faith to follow process for raising concern about an admin's behavior. The process is to first raise the issue on the admin's talk page. I did that. Instead of recognizing my concerns as legitimate, he is choosing to pick me apart and belittle my own behavior. So I followed the process to the next step, which is to open a case here.Coastside (talk) 17:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Is the image referred to in the DRN thread this one, which (according to the info provided by the uploader) is cropped from this image, which clearly indicates "© Commonwealth of Australia (1998)"? Is it the same image they were told repeatedly by Diannaa, our resident copyright expert, that they cannot use in this way (see Talk:Russell Islands#Map)? The same image that they've just asked Graeme Bartlett to include in the article (diff) just a few minutes ago? I think that's actually not the whole story: it looks to me more like they were told repeatedly that they cannot use the full map because of copyright, so instead they uploaded a version of the map with the copyright notice cropped out. So yes, perhaps Drmies used NOTHERE when WP:IDHT and WP:TE and WP:OTHERPARENT would suffice, but he was not inaccurate at all in his sentiment. Geographyinitiative needs to drop this stick; it is categorically not admin abuse to say so. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
  • This isn't about the original dispute at Russell Islands. I'm not arguing about the outcome of that dispute. I'm raising concerns about how an admin handled himself. I mentioned specifically what my concerns were in the admin's talk page. As I said, instead of ignoring a DRN case or saying he didn't want to participate, he chose to enter a threatening comment in the dispute summary. This made the editor requesting the case feel fearful for retribution. That's not just my opionion - the threatened editor literally left me a comment on my talk page saying they felt they needed to drop the DRN case because they were afraid. There were other instances where this admin chose to belittle the other editor and delegitimize the DRN process, but those aren't the primary issue. I'm really concerned that people don't recognize how harmful it is in Wikipedia for editors to fear retribution by admins. That's chilling not only tot he editor involved but to other editors as well.Coastside (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Persistent WP:COPYVIO is a severe problem that can result in blocks. Harsh words are in order when somebody is trying to steal another person's work without credit. Jehochman ^Talk 17:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
      • For the record the editor in question wasn't "trying to steal another person's work without credit". That's an unfair characterization. He was adding an external link to another site. In the thread in question he was pressing for a better understanding of why this wasn't permissable. Annoying? Perhaps. Trying to steal another person's work without credit - no.Coastside (talk) 17:31, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
      • Your complaint on Drmies talk page cites three statements by Drmies; I don't see how any of them could be characterized by "abuse"; a good dispute resolution process doesn't require that we pretend that a frivolous complaint isn't frivolous; opening an DRN thread on the map issue in the first place was an WP:IDHT waste of time. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:22, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict × 2) "they felt they needed to drop the DRN case because they were afraid" Well, yes, they did need to drop that case, at peril of being sanctioned, assuming that's what you meant by "afraid". They were (and evidently still are) trying to do an end-run around a Wikipedia policy with legal implications: they tried to add a link and it was removed, they inquired about the removal and started a discussion, that's all good and what we want to see. But despite being told by people who are experts in these matters that they could not proceed, rather than accept that fact they bludgeoned the discussion by repeatedly asking basically the same question with only minor variations, or simply asserting that they are correct. They went to DRN not to get more opinions on the matter but to continue the dispute after other editors got tired of their stonewalling: observe that Diannaa demanded that Geographyinitiative stop pinging her, after which they went to DRN and added her as a party; it is understandable that she did not respond. That didn't go their way either so now they're asking other editors not previously involved. This behaviour is disruptive and contrary to consensus-building, as described in the WP:OTHERPARENT policy subsection; administrators have a responsibility to stop disruptive editing. I suppose you can call that a threat if you want to, but I do not see how it is in any way actionable. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:25, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
        • User:Diannaa behaved entirely appropriately as an admin. She responded, several times. Then said to leave her alone. Then she ignored all subsequent request to get her involved, including the DRN-notice requests. That's what should happen. Editors should feel free to use dispute resolution processes, and participants who are invited can opt not to participate. That's the process. Admins shouldn't assert that just because they "ruled" on the matter that there is no recourse if one has questions or disagree. Opening a DRN is one such way to do that. It's something that should be welcomed and treated seriously. To dismiss it as frivolous is inappropriate. That doesn't mean admins or anyone else has to participate. All they need to do is ignore it, as User:Diannaa did. If no one responds, the DRN will get summarily closed. In this case, the other admins responded (except for Dianaa). By responding as he did in the DRN case, Dmries chose to participate. All he needed to do was stop responding or say he didn't want to participate in the discussion. The fact Dmries insisted on continuing to argue in thr DRN shows he didn't think this was a "waste of time". Instead, he was just trying to have the last word without letting the process play out. The editor requesting the DRN was admittedly being annoying, but admins need to handle that appropriately. There are guidelines for how admins handle other editor's behavior. I'm sure I don't need to start pointing to those guidelines. These guidelines are important to create a welcoming and safe atmosphere on Wikipedia. The main reason we're "wasting" time on this issue is that Drmies was abusive as an admin. Fine if you want to disagree with that, but I stand by that opinion.Coastside (talk) 18:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Disagree with Coastside =/= admin abuse. Although I suppose in a way, it is kind of refreshing to see "respect mah authoritah" coming from a non-admin directed at an admin. Just to change the usual dynamic. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I fail to see how you think I'm saying anyone needs to "respect mah authoritah". Frankly, I find the tone of all the comments here really disappointing. Many accuse Wikipedia editors of creating an atmosphere that is not conducive to active participation by others. For me, the response to my complaint here reinforces that belief. I'm pointing out how a user felt threatened and that they had no resource when faced with a disagreement against an admin in a legitimate content dispute. The dismissiveness, defensiveness and snarkiness of the responses here and in my original complaint on Drmies's talk page should be the exception rather than the rule, at least for admins, but it seems to be the accepted norm here. I've never opened an ANI case in my entire history on Wikipedia - this is my first. The response is pretty discouraging to say the least. I would expect people to treat me with respect, acknowledge my concerns, and then respond in a thoughtful, considerate manner. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But I would have appreciated being taken seriously and being treated respectfully. I've been editing on Wikipedia for a long time. This makes me less inclined to continue. I'm not surprised other editors feel this way too when admins don't take their roles more seriously.Coastside (talk) 17:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Why do you expect everyone to treat you with more respect than you showed Drmies? Why do you get to criticize people, but they can't criticize you? Why do you get to snark at Drmies, but others can't snark at you? Why is it important to note that you've been editing WP a long time, but you don't seem to care that almost everyone here has also been editing a long time? Please spend a few minutes considering the tiny possibility that you - in good faith, no doubt - made things worse here, and that people do not react well to being lectured by someone who has not investigated what happened, and that saying "respectfully" at the beginning of a lecture does not immunize you from claims of having an unproductive attitude? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:14, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
      • I interpret your questions as basically saying I'm a hyprocrite. To answer, I simply disagree with your characterization of my behavior here.Coastside (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
        • I am sorry to have contributed to your feelings of discomfort. Why don't we just drop this discussion and go back to collegial editing? Jehochman ^Talk 19:04, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
          • I woudn't have raised the issue here if I didn't think it was important. If you want to drop this, feel free to stop adding comments. You already suggested below that this thread get closed, so you've made the point. I welcome input from other editors and admins.Coastside (talk) 19:25, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• File:Map of the Russell Islands.jpg - Could somebody please double check that and see if it should be deleted speedily as an obvious copyvio? You can't use a piece of a copyright map to illustrate a geography article about the thing pictured in the map. The fair use doctrine is for things like using a corporate logo on an article about the corporation. Jehochman ^Talk 17:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Coastside, you're not reading the posts on Drmies's page right. As he has pointed out, the "mighty high horse" (not "mighty horse" (?)), came from Jehochman. Everybody responding to you there indented correctly btw, please see WP:INDENT. Since you thought Jehochman's response was by Drmies because they were indented the same, I'm concerned that you likely thought my own comment, also indented the same, was also by Drmies. It sounds like it, since you say "he is choosing to pick me apart and belittle my own behavior", which fits my comment rather better than Drmies's. I honestly don't think it's unimportant or "beside the point" that your accusations against Drmies here at this board are based on other people's posts. Please look at that discussion again. Bishonen | tålk 17:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC).
  • Regarding the indentation, I was referring to Drmies's response on his talk page, not here. He didnt' indent his response, so I read the first line as coming from him. Again, though I didn't mean to say his that response was admin abuse. The issues I raised on his talk page are the real concerns. Because he responded dismissively and by attacking me personally instead of focusing on my concerns and addressing them reasonably, I escalated the matter here. That's the process for complaints about admin behavior. Given the confusion, I'll edit my comment above. Coastside (talk) 18:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
    • You certainly escalated the matter, that's a fact. Please read more carefully next time. If you follow Wikipedia-wide convention of citing diffs you would not have made that mistake. What's funny is that I saw the diff that combined all those edits to my talk page and thought Jehochman was chastising me--and I started to feel terrible already because that's a person whose criticism I would accept, and I was wondering what I did wrong. As it turns out, as it so often turns out, it was a nothing case blown out of proportion twice--or, by now, three times. Drmies (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
      • To reduce this to my having misunderstanding Johachman's comments' on Drmies's talk page as having come from Drmies is really to miss the point. My complaint was about Drmies's behavior not on his talk page but elsewhere. I documented those instances and raised to his attention on this talk page. His responses there were incidental. It's clear to me he doesn't intend to acknowledge that his behavior was inappropriate. So far it doesn't seem others share my concern in how this kind of behavior has a chilling effect in Wikipedia. If that's the case, so be it. I'd prefer to leave this thread open for more input before summarily closing it. It hasn't been open for discussion very long.Coastside (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• I move that we close this thread with no further action. Jehochman ^Talk 18:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:BLP violations and legal threats

Asking for a block of 2600:1008:B10D:A8D2:B4C0:A734:7A0F:2C6A (talk · contribs) and rev/deletion of their edits. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 18:59, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• Also page protection of Max Scharping. This IP range has been there before. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 19:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

IP blocked for the threats and edits rev-del'd. I'm not the best on range blocking but it looks like one could be done in lieu of page protection. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I think there's more collateral damage with blocking 2600:1008:b100::/32 than protecting the page. -- Luk ^talk 00:05, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement sanction violation?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

A user named Horse Eye's Back, who explicitly stated that they were formerly Horse Eye Jack, had recently made major edits and reverts on Dragon Springs, an article very closely related to Falun Gong (It is said to be the headquarters of FG) and was previously just a redirect as the article was mostly copied from there.

This user was subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction not to make any contributions related to or on Falun Gong due to their constant edit warring. As we can see here and here, this user on their new account has continued with their edit war on articles closely related to Falun Gong and reverting other users such as Doug Weller and Onel5969. The material is highly contentious and it has been said that there were a recent consensus to merge as it was mainly just copied from Falun Gong. As of right now, Dragon Springs is not a redirect pending talk page discussions between other users that were not sanctioned. Moreover, Dragon Springs was previously first removed as a redirect by Horse Eye's Back older account, as we can see here as well as on subsequent edits.

Based on what is developing here, is this not a clear violation of their sanction by this user, not to mention the edit warring? WatchYourSixes (talk) 20:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I guess I do need to watch my six... Who is this guy? That sanction only applies to the literal page Falun Gong as can be clearly seen from the text of the decision (also its no reverts, not no contributions let alone no contributions in the whole FG space). WatchYourSixes doesnt even have six edits and yet they have advanced knowledge of wikipedia policy, procedure, and history. TLDR this is a hit job. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:13, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:ჯეო

On 2 June 2019, ჯეო was indefinitely blocked (not by me) on the Commons for repeated copyright violations. After a series of unresponsive/IDHT unblock requests, I removed talk page access there. Since that time, ჯეო has made numerous comments on my talk page here on en.wiki relating to that issue ([360][361] [362][363][364]), including what now appears to be monthly (22 September 2020, 13 October 2020‎, 13 November 2020.) The Commons issues have been clearly explained to them there (their talk page access was even conditionally restored in September, which they promptly violated). ჯეო has also been emailing me; I've asked them to desist in response. Although the content is banal, the inappropriate venue; the IDHT regarding the issues and venue; the failure to honour requests to stop; and especially the frequency, which now appears monthly (and is not limited to en.wiki, e.g., [365][366][367]), cause me to consider this as having moved beyond inappropriate and into harassment--whatever its motivation. I might suggest an interaction ban, but am open to any other remedy/sanction that would result in ჯეო's desistance. Эlcobbola _talk 22:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Let's do this:

• I'll block them from your talk page.  Done
• You turn off notifications from them in your preferences.
• If you haven't sent them email yet: Don't! And turn off email from them in your preferences as well.
• If you have sent them email before: we can't prevent them directly emailing you, but if they keep doing it, you should be able to forward the email to someone with authority at WMF (not 100% sure how it works, hopefully won't need to research) and they will likely be WMF banned.
• I make it clear to them that if they contact you anymore about a Commons-related issue, they will be blocked indef from en.wiki as well. Hopefully that will be sufficient deterrent.

@ჯეო: Leave. Elcobbola. Alone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I should add that we can't do anything about pestering you on other projects. You'd have to either talk to admins there, or try to get their account globally locked. @ჯეო:, is this what you want to happen? If not, then stop it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

User:CRS-20 is consistently reverting my edits and accusing me of vandalism

Back in October, User:CRS-20 reverted one of my edits, describing my edit as "vandalism" in his edit summary. A look at what he reverted will clearly show my edit was not vandalism, so I left a message on his talk page asking him not to make such accusations unless they are warranted. This warning clearly didn't work, as he did the exact same thing this month (here, and again here).

So I left another message on his talk page... but even after that, he did it again!

I am not sure what, if anything, an administrator can do about this, but perhaps CRS-20 will listen if an administrator repeats what I told him? Ultimograph5 (talk) 01:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) In the future, please remember that you must notify the user that is being reported on their talk page per policy at the top of this page and when you started this topic. I have done so for you this time. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

CRS-20 should certainly not be calling your edits "vandalism", but you, on the other hand, should realize that having the parameter entries in an infobox line up makes it easier for editors to find and change specific parameters instead of having to hunt in and out through each line of the box. There is no advantage to eliminating the blank spaces, because they don't render on the published page, and, in general, making non-rendered changes is a waste of everybody's time. My suggestion to you is to stop making those edits, and my suggestion to CRS-20 is to read WP:VANDALISM and to stop mislabelling well-meant edits as vandalism. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:09, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I saw that Ultimograph5 left those warnings in the past - and saw that its now an ANI. Looked into this before (but haven't gotten involved). Just noting that looking at CRS-20's edit history, Ultimograph5 is not the only editor who has had their edits reverted as "vandalism" (here, here, here, here, here, here, here few others). While I do agree in reverting most of the edits, the edits were not WP:VANDALISM. Perhaps I should have left a message warning earlier. Both of you make good edits under the WikiProject Spaceflight pages. OkayKenji ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:55, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I've issued CRS-20 a uw-mislead3 and made it clear that further reversions of these edits under the pretex of vandalism will result in a block. Ultimograph5 - accepting your edits were made in good faith, and understanding the reason why you made such edits - whilst not harmful, they are of little benefit either. If you can accept that some (most?) editors like the infobox parameters to line up for ease of editing and refrain from making such edits in the future, we can wrap this one up without any further administrative action. Mjroots (talk) 07:27, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Ultimograph5: As mentioned above, CRS-20 was wrong to describe your edits as vandalism. However, it is a very bad idea to "adjust" the existing style of an article. There are guidelines for spelling, dates and references saying that changing an existing style causes pointless disruption—don't do it. That principle applies to all things. If there had been a central discussion with large participation that decreed that wikitext alignment spaces should be removed, someone would have fixed articles with a bot. Until that happens, please do not impose personal preferences on articles. Johnuniq (talk) 09:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

User:Sadko doing a personal attack on other editors

User:Sadko in talk page doing a personal attack on other editors [[368]]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.67.67 (talk) 09:27, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I have issued a warning to the user. I don't know if I would call it a personal attack, but it is unproductive and harasses others. 331dot (talk) 09:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

It's okay to warn him or blocked from editing, but others have also complained about that editor which you only warn. Thank you93.138.67.67 (talk) 09:38, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Better policy about self promotion

We have come across a few editors over the years that are from other projects claiming they were asked to add content here as there job. Latest example was by User talk:Thehumantwig01 from Wikitongues who said I am an intern and it's my job to try to add these videos on as many pages..... Wondering if we should nip this type of stuff in the butt before it becomes even more common...with a better policy then we currently have. As in one geared to banning a site that does this type of actions related to paid editing to promote their own site.--Moxy 🍁 13:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure ANI is the best place to post this, but I agree. Squeeps10 ^{Talk to me}_{My edits} 18:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

An intern eh? Are we getting into WP:PAID territory? Mjroots (talk) 18:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Even if it's not paid, it's certainly a WP:COI violation. Every edit is adding "for Wikitongues" to the caption. For example, 1, 2, and 3 are their most recent edits. Woodroar (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Sock?

Can someone please do a check on User:Blocci and 84.212.193.255 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) as their edit habits and summaries are very similar in edit warring at Italy national football team. Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:21, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Debresser

Recently, my WP:BOLD edit on Template:Jews and Judaism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) was reverted with no reason provided by a long-time edit-warrior with long history of blocks Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). After edit-warring, I explained my edit on the talk page and asked him to self-revert. In response, he called me a liar, didn't undone his revert, and still demands that I explain my edit, without himself explaining why he's reverting it. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Triggerhippie4: Please reread the diff you liked to, where you accused Debresser of calling you a liar. The first sentence of that is an explanation for the revert. —C.Fred (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

An explanation is when someone says which links should not be removed and why. He didn't do that and he calls me a liar later in the diff I provided: "Oh, and you are a liar as well". --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Triggerhippie4: I disagree. Debresser did explain, although they would be better advised to engage in expanded discussion at the template talk page than to edit war. —C.Fred (talk) 17:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

This appears to have a content dispute at its heart, with the only behavioural issues being that Triggerhippie4 should not have re-reverted, and Debresser should not have used the word "liar". I don't believe that either of those is at the level where admin action is warranted, so why not just discuss this on the template talk page? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

This is clearly a content dispute and is being discussed on the template talk page. Debresser replied to Triggerhippie4's inquiries a full hour before this complaint was initiated. Debresser characterized Triggerhippie4's calling attention to their block log as "poisoning the well", and they were right, it was an unnecessary ad hominem. Debresser responding in kind is really not actionable. Everyone here needs to remember that assume good faith is a policy. Nothing for admins to do here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Persistent edit-warring over nationality of films

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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M*tesh (talk · contribs) is persisting in a campaign to change the nationality of various films to whatever they consider it to be (usually "British"), despite repeated efforts by a variety of other editors to persuade them to stop and in the face of both cited sources and guidelines such as WP:FILMLEAD. Their only attempt to engage across the many articles they are editing is at Talk:Enola_Holmes_(film)#An_"American"_film?, where their sole contribution appears to be repeating WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT-style that IMDB says something so it must be true. I have tried to engage with their user on their talk page, and tried to raise their reverts at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:M*tesh_reported_by_User:Ninetyone_(Result:_) but this appears to have got no traction. The user has demonstrated a clear pattern of repeatedly re-adding material that is unsourced, improperly sourced or directly contradicts a cited source, despite clear edit summaries from other users explaining why they are reverting. The user is now purely disruptive and it is hard to see that they are hear to build any form of encyclopaedia. ninety:one 18:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Mike Novikoff

I'm sorry if this not the right place to discuss this (if this is the case, please move my message to a more appropriate location), but I have found myself in a fight with a user named Mike Novikoff. I saw him removing stress (accent) marks from names in the Cyrillic script (enclosed in a {{lang-ru}} template) and I've tried to stop him, but he continues. I have pointed him to WP:BRD and suggested that he starts a serious discussion of the issue on the Russian project talk page before continuing, but he doesn't want to listen. There's also another user that helped him.

Mike Novikoff even wrote an essay about the necessity to remove stress marks from Russian names (WP:RUSTRESS), which he promotes by including a link to it in his edit summaries. I've tried to move the essay to his user space, but he moved it back. (By the way, the essay is badly written, and it looks like an attack page against the Russian Wikipedia where Mike Novikoff is currently blocked.)

I don't really want to fight and I don't care much about the Navalny and Lenin pages where Mike Novikoff reverted me 3 times or so already, but I'm afraid that he starts to remove stress marks en masse. I'm concerned about the articles that don't have Russian-language versions. (There are many, cause the Russian Wikipedia has stricter notability rules.) And if there isn't a Russian version, there will be nowhere to go for the information on correct pronunciation, the information will be completely lost.

By the way, Mike Novikoff's essay says that an IPA transcription "is already present in most of the articles that need it", but that is simply not true. And Mike No\vikoff has already removed stress marks from some articles that didn't have an IPA transcription. Examples: [369], [370], [371], [372], [373], [374], [375], [376]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Here are links to previous discussions:

• User talk:Mike Novikoff#WP:Stress marks in Russian words
• User talk:Retimuko#Alexei Navalny

As you can see, I've tried to explain to Mike Novikoff and Retimuko that most (if not all) Russian encyclopedias and dictionaries mark stresses. And that if they wanted to remove stress marks, a wide and thorough discussion would be necessary. But they don't seem to understand. Mike Novikoff even deleted my messages from his talk page. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:37, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

71.234.217.123 and the US presidential election

Despite a 36-hour block for edit-warring to remove Joe Biden's victory at 21st century, the very first edit made by 71.234.217.123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) after that block was to repeat their removal. Could someone take whatever action is deemed necessary please? Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 21:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

What are you gonna ban me for standing up for the truth? Typical lefties, it's sad how you've even infested Wikipedia now. This is why there's a cultural revolution against you. --71.234.217.123 (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2020 (UTC)