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Constant disruptions by User:TheWikiholic, User:TruthGuardians and User:Salvabl at the Talk:List of best-selling music artists

We've been having constant disruptions by TheWikiholic, TruthGuardians and Salvabl at the Talk:List of best-selling music artists for quite some time now. I'd like to mention first that all three editors are always involved in promoting Michael Jackson.

• Their initial joint involvement began at Talk:List of best-selling music artists to promote Michael Jackson at this discussion. In that discussion, all three clandestinely begin to discuss the general system of the list, and gradually switch to discrediting Elvis Presley and The Beatles, claiming that neither deserves to be listed at the top of the list.
• The second main discussion I'd like to point out is this, wherein all three initiate the discussion pretending their concern is within another area of the list, but again they quickly turn to discrediting The Beatles and Presley in hopes that they could replace at least Presley’s spot on the list with Michael Jackson.
• TruthGuardians' Michael Jackson promotions continue in ways like this.

Since they haven't been successful in achieving their goal, they come up with comments like "The list has a systematic bias against black artists". "Currently there is far give too much consideration given to the Beatles and Elvis on the basis of the lack certification system in a time when the consumer market worldwide was a lot less diverse and a lot smaller in markets like today", "I will also initiate a new discussion to use lower claimed sales for many artists, including the Beatles and Elvis Presley, as the gap between their claimed sales and certifications is the most egregious of all". "This benefits the most US-oriented artists such as Elvis Presley", "and that at the same time that is the reason why Presley keeps his 500M figure and is above Jackson".

I'd like to mention that not long ago, I reported TruthGuardians here at ANI for Off-wiki Canvassing, which was a discussion at the Talk:List of best-selling albums where both TheWikiholic and TruthGuardians were involved in promoting Michael Jackson's Thriller for having sold 100 million units. The discussion was closed to their disadvantage by an admin. Ever since then, both have been either engaged in wikihounding me at Talk:List of best-selling albums or targeting my work at Talk:List of best-selling music artists.

Topic ban proposals

I would like to ask our community to ban TheWikiholic, TruthGuardians and Salvabl from editing and/or commenting at the Talk:List of best-selling music artists and its main article as their only goal is to promote Michael Jackson and demote Elvis Presley and The Beatles. Thank you.--Harout72 (talk) 03:27, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• Strong support For topic bans.

Akhiljaxxn aka TheWikiholic was given final warning after a community discussion earlier on ANI.[1]

TruthsGuardians's conduct was discussed extensively in the earlier ANI thread.[2]

It is now time to topic ban all three of these since Salvabl is also acting disruptive and frequently violating WP:POINT[3]. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 04:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

First of all, I've had to go username change for the reason of privacy and protection. I was subjected to legal and violent threats on and off of Wikipedia from the ruling party of India because of my edits on Wikipedia. I had explained all of this before undergoing a name change. You need to remove the name of my old account here as you are putting me at risk. I would also like you to show me these so-called disruptive editing or edit warring because these examples by Harout72 are examples of said behavior. TheWikiholic (talk) 15:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Abhishek0831996:@TheresNoTime: WP:OUTING. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 10:00, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mako001: I have no dog in this fight but that was no violation of OUTING. Read WP:REFACTOR and don't modify others post. Editorkamran (talk) 11:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

@Editorkamran: Cheers, I am aware of WP:REFACTOR, however it struck me as potentially a case of outing, so I removed it out of an abundance of caution. If you do not consider that other editors privacy or safety is compromised by the material I removed, by all means reinstate it, I do not object. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 11:50, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

That's fine. Thanks for the response. Editorkamran (talk) 11:54, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Strong oppose I was not able to independently verify Harout72's allegations that he was being hounded or that the other users engaged in canvassing. If someone is able to verify that, please notify me. Madame Necker (talk) 14:50, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Oppose topic bans based on the analysis presented below. Gusfriend (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Statement by TruthGaurdians

Here you go again… more false accusations and another failed attempt to weaponize the ANI board against editors who constructively disagree with you as to not have to work towards a resolution with editors who point out the fundamental issues with the articles that you are in clear violation of WP:OWNERSHIP for. The RFC you mention was not closed to anyone’s disadvantage. It was closed because “without prejudice as it was considered a clusterfest that was going nowhere.” So of it was to my disadvantage, it was also to yours as well. Furthermore, I would like to add that you falsely accused me of off-wiki canvassing as is evident by the results and non-action. I told you then you were making false accusations and I’m asking you now to stop making that same false accusation. What you claim to be disruptive editing is not the case. Agreeing with other editors who have voiced the same concerns as I have is how Wikipedia works. Talk:List of best-selling albums#Methodology shows multiple editors bringing up some of these unresolved issues that I have had for years and that is that you are also in violation of WP:NOR. Also, I did not start this discussion. I only constructively added to the discussion started by Rhododendrites. Finally, other issues that have been reported by other editors is what they deem as racial bias found here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1102#Racial bias at Talk:List of best-selling albums reported by Levivich.

So while once again you are making a false assumption that all of these genuine concerns is about the position of one artist over the other, it’s not. It’s about how one editor gets to control the narrative of these pages while in clear violation of WP:OWNERSHIP, WP:NOR, and WP:SYNTHESIS. Instead of wasting the time of the admins by weaponizing the ANI board, I’m asking you to stop with the false accusations once and for all, and work with the many, many editors (old and new) who have been reporting the same issues for years. There are many great suggestions in the works here right now: Fundamental Article Issues TruthGuardians (talk) 05:19, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what's going on here, but as someone who just started a conversation on the above talk page, I can confirm that Harout has not been receptive to constructive criticism on the talk page here historically, and the only interactions I've had with the three users mentioned above by him have been respectful and attempting to find a common path forward. I was the one who started the Fundamental Article Issues section on the talk page there, and I've never interacted with these users before now. I think Harout is the one being unreasonable here. Pacack (talk) 05:36, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• What the pluperfect hell? Being an utterly uninvolved editor who's never participated on those talk pages, I just looked over the first linked discussion Harout cites, and his reaction is little short of hysteria. It is not a sinister act to question the criteria used to make a determination, nor is it a thought crime to deem Michael Jackson to be more popular in his time than the Beatles and Elvis were in theirs. (I disagree, but it's certainly a justifiable stance to take.) Harout absolutely gives the finger to WP:AGF in that year old discussion, with this opening salvo: "Finally, you will be Boldy reverted as many times as required and be reported to ANI for edit-warring and disruptive behavior. In fact, let me remind you that your hateful comments here at this talk are disruptive enough." Ironically enough, such an unprovoked statement -- the alleged "hateful comments" had to do with questioning the methodology involved -- would've been ANI-worthy itself.

  Then we go to the second linked discussion, where far from being the monolithic front Harout is claiming, TruthGuardians supports Harout's stance: "I find myself in agreement with Harout’s argument above, “The higher claimed figures should be looked at and considered on individual bases, it's not all that black and white.” He’s absolutely right, there can be a lot to consider and a lot of gray areas depending on the artist and situation." Once again, it's a long, long, long dry discussion of methodology and numbers. I don't remotely have the interest or expertise necessary to parse them out myself, but gosh: that'd be a content dispute, which has no place at ANI.

  Then we have the sockpuppet investigation involving TruthGuardians [4], which was closed by the checkusers as being unrelated to TruthGuardians. Abhishek0831996 deserves one hell of a trout slap for claiming THAT as the basis for a topic ban on pretty much anything. ANI is not a venue to tear down people who disagree with you on content. Ravenswing 08:00, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

You need to check the talk page archives. This WP:IDHT by these editors is happening for years of years. They don't even understand what is being discussed and keep pursuing their fan-based POV just all the time. Topic ban is necessary now. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 12:57, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

"You need to check the talk page archives." This is adjacent to "'check revision history.' You've essentially made an allegation, then pointed at a mountain of paperwork and told others to prove it for you. Please provide some diffs. GabberFlasted (talk) 13:35, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Abhishek0831996 is correct, others including Bluesatellite have provided explanations to them also in those discussions, but those three are simply not interested in listening to what anybody explains. Their main focus remains demoting Elvis Presley and promoting Michael Jackson. This can still be seen in their comments today Harout72 (talk) 14:22, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

These are confusing diffs to include because from what I've reading, including these two diffs in a vacuum, the users you are reporting are being more civil and respectful than some of the people lambasting them. In particular that diff of Salvabl at least to me seems a very civil and thought-out attempt at collaboration and sharing ideas. GabberFlasted (talk) 15:24, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

See, like GabberFlasted, I see those diffs and come to a different conclusion: that they think the current way of assessing things is biased in favor of some artists and against others, and they are doing so in a civil fashion. IDHT does not mean "Wahhh wahhh, they're not agreeing with me, so they're Wrong!Wrong!Wrong!" Ravenswing 22:18, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

No, what you need to do, Abhishek0831996, is sharply ratchet back your rhetoric and accusations before we start seeking topic/interaction bans against you. Reading that diff from Salvabl, which you characterize as "disruptive" and a POINT violation, is nothing of the sort ... unless you're one of those provocative types for whom "disruption" means "The other guy disagrees with me!!!" By and large, ANI regulars are not stupid. It would be extremely unwise of you to treat us as if we were. Ravenswing 22:45, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

It's one thing to start a topic about methodology or the way list operates as whole and to stay on that issue, but it's completely another thing to start a discussion pretending your aim is to discuss list's methodology, and quickly/clandestinely turn it into yet another Michael Jackson records sales promotion. And this is what these three editors are constantly using the list's talk page for. If these three want to engage in promoting Michael Jackson records sales, they shouldn't be allowed to that on wikipedia. Harout72 (talk) 13:11, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• The last dispute was closed with the instruction that all involved parties stop bringing these sales disputes up. If we're still talking about this, that means someone is violating that... Sergecross73 msg me 12:42, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
• Pinged, but I don't have much to add. I saw another dispute about this page pop up, and was struck that the inclusion criteria seemed to rely on more OR than I'm used to seeing. It was a bit too involved, with a lot of apparently strong feelings, to really pursue, though. No comment on the behavioral issues. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:23, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
• Another uninvolved observer here and I'm really struggling to see a strong basis for this. A lot of the opening of this report centers around Michael Jackson specifically, and Harout (OP) seems to perceive any talk of Michael Jackson as what amounts to paid promotion. The link in the third bulletpoint listed is nothing more than TruthGuardian (TG) saying that they should expect upcoming news that would alter the article contents, but the bullet words it as if TG is unfairly promoting views in articlespace. OP also brings up an ANI discussion that ended in a 'Knock it off, all of you' but claims it specifically targeted the reportee. OP claims that the reported users are hounding them on a single talk page, instead of the logical conclusion that it is a talk page that all involved users are, well, involved in, and they would naturally contribute. This is a very confusing tangle of talk page archives and ANI threads but what I can be can be certain of is that this thread was written deliberately uncharitably, almost to the point of deception. GabberFlasted (talk) 14:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

  Having read TW's statement, and Talk:List_of_best-selling_albums#Methodology? I am inclined to agree with my peers above and below me that this methodology smells of, at the very least, synthesis. This, combined with Harout72's at times confrontational and condescending attitude, do seem to paint a picture of perceived WP:OWNership. The claims of a double standard being upheld by Haruout72 are also of significant concern, as this type of discrimination would border on NOTHERE in my eyes (this is not an accusation). TW has put together a very cohesive argument, and I would commend them on keeping a level head and assembling it. GabberFlasted (talk) 16:57, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• Uninvolved editor as well here, I also don't see any overt Michael Jackson POV pushing. Questioning methodology isn't POV pushing. TruthGuardians even agreed with the reporting party in one of them. All three users comments above appear to be mostly civil, so I'm not sure where the basis comes from.

From the reporting party, however, I have seen open accusations of off-wiki canvassing, socking, meatpuppetry, and more. I don't believe I've seen any evidence to support those accusations from the accusing party. There is also a slight misrepresentation of the information included in this ANI. I find calling a RfC that was closed as this clusterfest is going nowhere as "To their disadvantage" to be disingenuous as best, misleading at worst. There's no way any editor can look at the way that RfC and go "Yup, it was these three editors that were wrong". If it was closed to their disadvantage, it was closed to your disadvantage as well. Also, I would point out, that if you've had an admin come into several threads about this topic and essentially go "Nope" (User:EvergreenFir did it with both the ANI, and the RfC) due to civility issues, there is a severe issue with the way this conversation is going. FrederalBacon (talk) 15:34, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, in follow up to all of this, this seems like a topic and methodology ripe for controversy. It appears, according to the page itself, to be leaving off some significant artists, because it doesn't meet their criteria and methodology. I feel like including "Claimed numbers" at all flies in the face of WP:V. The verifiable numbers are directly from the organizations certifying sales. Any artist, label, or news organization can claim an artist has sold a certain amount....but that's not the amount they are verified to have sold, which are provided, and listed, on the page. To have a formula to allow for claims outside of reliable, verifiable, sources is....weird to me. FrederalBacon (talk) 15:56, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• Uninvolved contributor here also. I want whoever is reading this to know that Harout72's first edit to the page List of best-selling music artists is this one, in 2007. Since then (15 years) he almost owns the page, making possibly hundreds of edits; see the edit history for yourself. So now he arrives at AN/I requesting three users be banned from editing this article. Why? A content dispute, apparently, accusing the three other editors of attempting to "promote Michael Jackson", along with several potentially misleading and/or exaggerated diffs. Reporting three users with whom you are possibly engaged in content disputes with to AN/I, and requesting bans for them, is potentially disruptive; you could have simply walked over to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Harout72, I think it's about time you take a break from that article, and give others a chance to contribute to it, because it's unfair for one user to control the contents of a page to their liking, and it violates WP:OWN. Nythar^T.C 01:46, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Statement by TheWikiholic

It's been more than a decade now since Harout has been single-handedly maintaining the page List of best-selling music artists. On the list, he includes artists that began charting before 1973 who are required to have a minimum of 30% of required certifications.

• Between 1973–1990 artists are required to have their available claimed figures supported by 30-70% in certified units. (That is 2.35% for each additional year after 1973)
• Between 1990–2000 artists are required to have their available claimed figures supported by 70-77% in certified units. (That is 0.7% for each additional year after 1990).
• Between 2000–the present artists are required to have their available claimed figures supported by 77-80% in certified units. (That is 0.14% for each additional year after 2000).

Throughout the years a large number of editors have expressed their concerns over this calculation method with the last instances being here. If we research the archives of the talk page we can easily discover that Harout72 has completely made up these definitions and the minimum required percentage for artists to be on these respective lists. Even if we follow the above method, we can see that Harout has been showing bias against black artists. For example, according to the edit history, talk page archive, and Harout’s own method artists who began charting in the 1980s might have at least 60% certification to support their claimed sales. Both Madonna and Whitney Houston began charting in 1984 and 1985 respectively. It was in 2010 that an article was being used to support the 300M claimed sales of Madonna. During that time she only had 153.3M certifications, which was only around 51% of her 300M claimed sales. Keep in mind, according to the page’s own rules she should have been at 60%. Last February when Whitney Huston reached 153m certification one user requested to update her claimed sales to 200m instead of 170m per the page’s own rules. Harout was not willing to do so. He told the editor to wait until Whitney adds another 7 to 8 Million certified sales and thus brings her total certified sales to 160m. Last June there was a similar instance of raising the claimed sales of Ariana Grande by 5 million. Interestingly, he had no issue by then as you can see here Similarly, on Feb 8, 2019, the article began using the 200m figure for Taylor Swift. Back then, Taylor's total available certifications were only 201.1M. Currently, Artists like Kanye West and Beyonce have 251.4M ad 222.7M Certified sales respectively, but they are still in the 160 M claimed sales title, whereas Taylor Swift with only 238.9 still has 200m claimed sales. I'm astonished to see that some artists enjoy such privilege, while other artists do not. Every time editors raise their concerns over the calculation method of Harout 72, he falsely accuses the editors of being disruptive, which is why we are here now. He also once called me by my old user name, even though I had a name change on the grounds of privacy and legality. You can also see from this discussion from last June 2021 that Harout has been stating to different users under this thread that the discussion is futile and you guys are wasting your time like he is the owner of this page. Here is another instance where Harout72 was changing the rules to the article’s definition that supports his arguments and then asked me to refer to the definition in a vain attempt to prove me wrong. I've been editing Wikipedia for a while now and I'm also an admin on a local Wikipedia. I have never seen a single editor have so much control over the policy-making of a page by his WP:OR and WP: SYNTHESIS. By allowing Harout72 to continue to do this, the community is allowing him full control of all the Wikipedia pages related to the List of best-selling music artists and albums and every single pages of both albums and artists listed in these two lists. The problems will continue to exist and, editors will continue to discover the same fundamental issues with these pages and, he will continue to claim that they are disrupting simply by them pointing out the obvious on a talk page. This is not what Wikipedia is supposed to be, but Harout has turned it into such a toxic situation. TheWikiholic (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Alright, hang on. Question here. There are obviously a number of editors interested in the topic; I see numerous names listed in the various discussions. What is stopping you -- or any other interested editor -- from opening a RfC to establish a fresh methodology? Set forth the options, have people comment on the options, see if a consensus can be built around one option or another. I realize (having written some notability criteria myself) that one editor can set forth criteria which are taken as a given from there on forward, but no such criteria is immune from changing consensus, and no editor-author gets a veto over the process. Despite Harout's assertions, those so-called "rules" are not set in granite. Ravenswing 22:27, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

This situation is similar to one at List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation where there were issues with ownership of the inclusion criteria in a way that many saw as WP:OR. Once these issues were publicised to the wider community (in that case through a failed AfD) a consensus on the article talk page emerged and issues were fixed. In this case there was no need to sanction any individual editors and more eyeballs on the issue made consensus forming easier. In other words, an RfC might be the way to go. Vladimir.copic (talk) 22:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it may be beyond that. Read this thread on the talk. I have significant concerns about an editor who tells other editors to disregard the RIAA and instead download a mediafire link. I will not download that link, nor should anyone else, but like...come on, he's using a .doc, with no author listed on the file, for sourcing. FrederalBacon (talk) 00:32, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

It is also worth pointing out that the link attached to Rihanna for certified sales is a link to a database to search. If you search by artist, she is no where near the claimed amount on the page. Is "Converting certifications into sales and then converting those into a number we display on the page" a "routine calculation" allowed in OR? Because if the number that the editor comes up with is different than what the RIAA comes up with for official total sales, that appears to fall pretty cleanly into SYNTH, correct? FrederalBacon (talk) 00:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree there are significant WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and WP:OWN issues here and maybe admins should look at these. My example really was about how a critical mass of editors turning their attention to a topic can overturn these issues without resorting to bans etc. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:49, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the proposed topic bans have a snowballs chance, and considering the fact that more editors are gonna have eyes on this, you're absolutely right. The issues with the article appear to be a content dispute, backed with some pretty strong feelings and desires. If an RfC produces a consensus that moves away from the current methodology, then that is what will happen. But, my concern with being beyond that point is that, given the above examples, I don't believe an RfC on this issue would remain civil enough for other editors to engage in. The fact that, when Evergreen closed both the RfC and ANI linked in the report, they called them a "clusterfest" and "timesink" respectively, doesn't exactly encourage the idea of holding another RfC where all of the editors involved can do their apparently normal thing, even if other editors would be involved. FrederalBacon (talk) 03:23, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I thought we were heading to an RFC for a resolution, per Apoxy’s suggestion and the last comment under Fundamental issues section, but here we are instead. TruthGuardians (talk) 02:26, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I’ve now put forward a draft of an RfC for discussion on the talk page. Vladimir.copic (talk) 12:58, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Nuclear option: Fully protect the article

Let every change be run past an admin first. It's fairly obvious that a number of the regular editors on the article, many of whom have ulterior motives for inflating or deflating the figures of various artists, can't be trusted to maintain it accurately themselves. Short of partially blocking everyone (which in some cases may be unfair) I can't see any other way of making sure we won't be here yet again in a few months. Black Kite (talk) 23:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• WP:SUPERPROTECT. Something this important should be left to the Foundation Office to handle. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:15, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• Not really. We regularly fully protect articles when they're the subject of serious disruption, and that's certainly the case here. Black Kite (talk) 23:22, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

the foundation definitely shouldn't be getting involved in content disputes like that. PRAXIDICAE🌈 23:26, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

It was an attempt at humor. See my user page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:33, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect, I still have yet to see any evidence that any regular editors with the alleged ulterior motives. There needs to be an RFC (or consensus) to handle Harout’s WP:Synthesis and WP:NOR issues as other uninvolved editors pointed out above. Furthermore, there are no disruptions. There is only one editor that keeps coming to the ANI board. Since the last time we were here 4 or 5 other editors have pointed out the same issues that has been getting brought up for years. These fundamental issues must first be corrected. Once corrected, future editors that discover the page won’t have the same concerns. TruthGuardians (talk) 02:20, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

So START a RfC. (I'd do it myself, but I don't have the expertise to phrase the various options adequately or accurately.) Nothing prevents you from doing so. Ravenswing 03:41, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm not seeing "many of whom have ulterior motives." I'm seeing that Harout routinely claims that his self-declared opponents have ulterior motives, but that's not the same thing, and he could really stand a strong warning to AGF. Ravenswing 03:39, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

That's what I see, too, but not just lack of AGF, also WP:OWN issues; maybe an WP:ABAN is in order. Levivich 05:46, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

It's not just Harout (indeed, they are almost certainly not the worst offender). You may both want to search the archives for the multiple previous threads about this article. Though, to be fair, it's partly the problem of the article. There are multiple different sources for "facts" regarding the subject, so it is easy for multiple editors to cherry pick the ones that suit their POV, and they can then say "We must say X, it's sourced". Well, it is, but there may be many sources that say Y. Black Kite (talk) 08:44, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

You want me to see things beyond the archives and discussions I've already read, come up with some links. Having read the links supplied by Harout and Abhishek as Proof! of their foes' dastardly intent and behavior, and seen nothing that causes me to so much as blink, I'm going to need something considerably stronger. Ravenswing 14:12, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Abhishek is not even an involved editor. His disdain for me comes because of a non-music related edit, and the fact I ignored him on my talk page. This is the level of harassment that I have been subjected to by some editors. It’s exhausting. By the way, I have no issues if they protect the page for admission only. Also, as far as an RFC is concerned, please refer to the ongoing discussion found Talk:List of best-selling music artists#Fundamental Article Issues TruthGuardians (talk) 18:49, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to very much second Ravenswing on this one: if this is really just the tip of the iceberg, then there must be a gargantuan amount of disruption that probably should have been addressed a long time ago and should be brought to the community's attention now, whether some of it is stale for purposes of sanctions now or not--if only for context and deciding what needs to be done here. Because my inclination after a non-trivial quasi-deep dive into the record here over the last couple of days (as a community member with no previous experience with the relevant articles and parties), is that I have seen a great deal of concerning behaviour from one editor in particular, and very little in systemic problems that do not in some way involve that user. Not that I'm dismissing Black Kite's observations, but I'm just not seeing live issues from other parties that even remotely rise to the same level. Here, for the record, are my thoughts on the matter (again, as yet another non-involved editor looking at this issue fresh):

We have an editor here who has devised an idiosyncratic methodology for inclusion criteria that is either "merely" 100% synthesis, at best, or probably just better described as pure OR. It certainly isn't consistent with any policy or guideline promulgated by this community, nor am I even seeing the support of a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS to apply it as an ad-hoc rule on those articles--even if such a decision could have been used to support diversion of an article's content towards an inclusion criteria separate from WP:WEIGHT and WP:V, which is a dubious proposition it itself.

And from all appearances, that editor thereafter used this made-up standard to bully-boy their way into complete ownership of the article for a truly discouraging amount of time. And then that same editor (and here I'm about to join a veritable chorus of editors above with similar concerns) spun the content of their arguments arising out of this approach to stitch together an ANI complaint that highly spins (if not outright misrepresents) the course of the interrelated disputes to seek sanctions against their rhetorical opposition and remove them from said editor's sphere of influence on the related articles. What's truly telling about this course of conduct though, is how Harout seems to be genuinely oblivious to the fact that their perspectives would not be endorsed. Seeking sanctions against three separate editors at once was always going to put the dispute under a microscope, and you'd expect any experienced community member attempting such a proposal to present an airtight case, instead of a tightly wound boomerang in a box. Yet Harout seems to have genuinely thought this would come off well. That suggests to me that this is not just a case of a badly calculated effort at misdirection, but someone who fundamentally does not understand the deep flaws with their approach to the content, to the consensus process, and their interactions, at least in this subject space.

Are the actions of the other three editors to blame for some of the mess here? Possibly they were suboptimal in places I have not seen. I think they made at least a tactical error in accepting the inclusion framework forced by Harout and then getting in the mud to argue in those terms, and possibly letting their arguments also get tainted by subjective standards--the very thing our sourcing-based verification and weight processes are meant to avoid, and why this ad-hoc, idiosyncratic replacement standard is so problematic. But at the end of the day, I am seeing one major problem editor here, and thus one very simple fix that will begin to sort the situation on these articles faster than anything else. Is an RfC warranted to officially rollback this bizarre franken-monster of ginned-up inclusion criteria that has been foisted on these lists for years? I guess it couldn't hurt, but then it also shouldn't be necessary, since these rules were substantially the passion project of one editor and never passed anything remotely like local consensus, let alone a WP:PROPOSAL threshold. More to the point, I don't see any such RfC going over well if Harout is a party to that process--if my review of the talk pages in question here is any guide.

In short, I am very much in support of a TBAN of Harout72 from all lists and articles concerned with music as a commercial product, broadly construed, as the simplest first step here. I do not see much cause for hope that the substantial and overlapping issues with WP:OR, WP:OWN, or WP:AGF are likely to be alleviated by anything short of this with regard to this editor and that content area. If I am blunt, I'm not sure Harout has sufficiently internalized a number of Wikipedia's most crucial policies regarding consensus and collaboration for productive editing anywhere. But this is a place to start. Apologies for the jumbo post on this one. Regardless, I do broadly support an active community response here, whether focused mostly on Harout or not. Clearly a blind eye was turned to this situation for far too long, whoever is ultimately responsible for the disruption. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 22:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Am I the only one noticing that comments on the talkpage clearly show ownership? Editors are addressing new sections directly to Harout, they seem to have the sole voice of what gets added to some of these people, so many unreliable sources listed on the page, and then, there's this comment.

@TJ What's your poin? I think, Harout's explanation already good enough to show the reason why we let Taylor Swift hang out with Mariah, Whitney, and Celine in the table. She deserve it. As for Beyonce. The new claim of 160m is good enough for her at this moment.

That is a heck of a talk page comment. "Why we let" "She deserve it" "Good enough for her". Is this how this methodology is on the page? FrederalBacon (talk) 00:13, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

You are not alone in your observations. Editors will need to be in Harout’s good graces to get what they need and should be done. If an editor question his arguments you will be falsely accused of sock puppetry, disruptive editing, and working for the Michael Jackson estate… and then bring these claims here to the ANI board, or at least threaten to do so. He has about 4 editors that back his every word and allow him veto power in that article along with any article that is about music sales. I don’t want to list those other editors here, but you can check almost every discussion and/or RFC he’s been apart of and see the same editors echo his words, without merit and sources. I’ve even seen sources, like an Academic journal, being dismissed for what it was because he made up an entire POV for the article in order to try to protect is WP:OR. TruthGuardians (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Okay, let's not get carried away here. You're conflating issues. You have brought some reasonable suspicion upon yourself by your own actions - you almost exclusively POV-push positive slanting content to and and all things Michael Jackson as your main area of interest outside these disputes. That's what gets people suspecting things, not just because "you dared question Harhout" or whatever you're driving at here. Sergecross73 msg me 18:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

What's with this recent trend of admins casting evidence-free aspersions like "ulterior motives" and "POV-push"? "An editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence...". If that applies to anyone, it applies to admins. Levivich 18:43, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't know, as I don't spend much time here, but in regards to my comment, I'm not reporting him or calling for any action to be taken on him, I'm talking to him, saying his recap of events was incomplete, and lack awareness of the full scope of the situation. Sergecross73 msg me 18:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

I am astonished that I just read that. An admin claiming POV pushing from an editor, with no diffs for evidence, while pretty much the entire ANI (except for involved editors) is saying that the editor has a good point, and that there are significant problems with the page, ownership being chief amongst them? And TG is POV pushing? How about all the editors in here of the opinion the methodology is synth, at best? Are we all MJ POV pushing? FrederalBacon (talk) 00:02, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

You're ...astonished about that? Are you guys reading into something I didn't intend or something? I said he got suspected of things because he writes exclusively positive content about a subject. It was an observance I saw back when I did some digging at the WP:SPI filed on him. It was a passing observance when I saw what I interpreted. It was not a rationale for an administrative action taken, nor a proposal for administrative action towards him. Your reaction is truly baffling to me. Bizarre interpretations like this are certainly why I usually tend to stay away from ANI though, thank you for that reminder. I'll get out of your way and let you all argue into oblivion without resolution, as is the trajectory of these discussions yet again. Sergecross73 msg me 00:29, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I've struck the comment since it appears the point is being missed. Sergecross73 msg me 00:37, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Your exact words were You have brought some reasonable suspicion upon yourself by your own actions - you almost exclusively POV-push positive slanting content to and and all things Michael Jackson.

You didn't say he got suspected of things, you flat out said he did the things he was accused of, with absolutely no evidence or proof. You said he did it by his own actions. This isn't reading into anything but your own words, and I absolutely reject the "Bizarre interpretation" line, because it was your words. Thank you for retracting. FrederalBacon (talk) 00:56, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I said consistently editing positively about a single subject eventually leads to suspicions of other things. If I spent the bulk of my time writing positive content about Tom Petty across Wikipedia, people would be accusing me of being tied to his PR team. Sergecross73 msg me 01:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

And if they do, we can all agree they should provide diffs or other evidence backing up those accusations. Thanks for striking. Levivich 01:52, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Especially considering the fact that this ANI is about POV editing regarding MJ. Multiple uninvolved editors have looked at the evidence presented above, and just don't see it. An admin coming in here and going "Actually during my SPI of this editor, I noticed they do POV edit alot" would be extremely relevant to this discussion, should there be proof of the same. FrederalBacon (talk) 02:38, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I really urge that this line of discussion go no further. First off, this is doing no favours to anyone who wants to demonstrate that the disruption here is entirely (or at least in the majority) caused by Harout and not the parties he has brought to ANI. And this is coming from someone who just lodged the single longest and most vociferous post of any non-involved community member to yet look into the issue, in support of that proposition. Before Serge posted the comment to which such umbrage is being taken, I was about to post one myself with advice that dovetails with that given by Salvabl below: namely, that when someone brings multiple parties to ANI and then those parties are lucky enough to benefit from multiple random community members looking into the issue, dismissing the complaints and calling for possible boomerang action instead...that is not the moment in which the parties should be filling the thread with constant broadsides and defensive responses. Because these kind of WP:INVOLVED responses are just going to muddy the waters precisely at a time when you really want the comments of the uninvolved parties supporting your position to shine through. Especially if the involved comments appear even slightly histrionic or questionable. And note, for the record, that TruthGuardians didn't provide a single diff to support their accusations in that post--and yet the un-involved admin who responded to that highly accusatory post is getting lambasted for the same thing? I'm afraid I don't track the reasoning at work there...

And let's also recognize too that whether Serge took the time properly diff it or not, we are in fact talking about an editor who has two entries in their block log (the only two entries, in fact) for disruptive behaviour associated with articles relating to Michael Jackson. Nor is Serge by any stretch of the imagination the first person to suggest that TG has a POV in this area, as can be easily confirmed in mere minutes merely by looking at their talk page edit history. I also saw it in discussions in the involved article talk pages while looking into Harout's problematic behaviour. So if we're going to be forced to get into those weeds to defend an admin's off-hand comment of caution (which seemed to me to be very much in TG's own best interests to hear), it's really not going to improve the case for Harout being the prime issue on these talk pages (a position I still support, incidentally). Quite the opposite, in fact. The group of editors who has been put into opposition with Harout by virtue of this unnecessary thread should really 1) learn to recognize when they are ahead, and benefiting heavily from the due diligence of uninvolved community members, 2) not over-egg the pudding of counter-complaints, when the course of the discussion is already favouring them, 3) not overreact to a comment from an admin merely suggesting that someone is not perfectly, 100% innocent of any errors in the dispute, and 4) not thereby bloat the discussion with combative exchanges with admins which can only serve to distract from the scrutiny being placed on the other party to the dispute. In short, don't look the gift horse in the mouth... (And yes, I understand that not all of the enumerated behaviours above are attributable to involved parties, but also some un-involved community members, but the advice is nevertheless valid). SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:17, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

First off, this is doing no favours to anyone who wants to demonstrate that the disruption here is entirely (or at least in the majority) caused by Harout The thing is, I'm not here to demonstrate that. I'm seeing that conclusion based off of what I have seen looking through talk, archives, and other history regarding the page and methodology. I'm objective, I'm just following the evidence, which is why I wanted all evidence to be introduced, if there was any. Part of this discussion that has led me to that conclusion, in fact, is that Harout's evidence is (in my opinion) lackluster, and requests for more specific examples as to his claims haven't been fulfilled.

But as for the discussion itself, I had absolutely no intention of continuing. The statement was retracted. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:43, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

This admin is not an uninvolved editor. The admin has voted along side Harout a number of times. I have never POV pushed anything. I literally have only question, with evidence and using Wikipedia rules and standards the fundamental issues with these articles. While I am a bit of an expert in all things music and Michael Jackson, I am not a single purpose editor as proven via my edit history. I am a facts based, no non-sense editor and I just wanted to clarify that. Here are two recent examples of the admin being involved: here they vote in the favor of harout per harouts comments. here too. While I am a bit of a tenured editor now, when I first started editing I in 2019 (I think) I didn’t know anything about edit warring or disruptive editing. So while my history my reflect such behavior on a couple of occasions, that was awhile back on an unrelated topic. The accusations of disruptive behavior now is about wiki articles related to all things sales. There is no evidence of that behavior on the topic at hand, because it does not exist. I learn from my mistakes and I think that is made clear through my edit history.TruthGuardians (talk) 14:42, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I participated in a recent related RFC, and found the proposed change to be logistically unlikely. If I commented elsewhere I don't even recall it. (Edit: checking the 2 difs, they're both from the same discussion.) I have no particular interest in Jackson or the list, I just respond to a lot requests for input at the music Wikiprojects I'm active in. I've already struck my comment and have no interest in any further involvement - I already turned down a request on my talk page to get more involved earlier this week. This is not my interest in the music content area at all. Sergecross73 msg me 15:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

If you check the talk page of the Talk:List of best-selling music artists we can see that none of the discussions were related to Michael Jackson. So I am not convinced that the Michael Jackson argument stands here. Before Harout72 took this issue here, there were three different active conversations was going on. One was about one of the editors finding the 600M claimed sales of The Beatles being inflated. I nor TruthGaurdians even participated in this discussion. The second one was about raising the claimed sales of Beyonce from 120M to 200 million because a few days ago RIAA certified almost her entire catalog equal to another 104M. Neither Salvabl nor TruthGaurdians participated in this. The third one was about the fundamental issues of the list. Harout72 never participated in that discussion. So I don’t see any evidence of his accusations of a Michael Jackson POV push. Ever since the issue was taken to the admin's noticeboard some editors have expressed concerns over the calculation method that was invented by Harout72. So I guess he may feel as though he is losing his WP:OWNERSHIP if the third conversation gathers more attention and that is the catalyst for the accusations against us and the reason why we are here now.— TheWikiholic (talk) 17:27, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Those discussions referred to by TheWikiholic are not related to Jackson in any way. I just think that Harout72 makes Jackson's name appears frequently (this ANI report is an example of it) in an attempt to discredit and label as disruptive the behaviors of other users with points of view that he does not support. And this is systematic since long ago. I, for example, the last thing I suggested and that has led me to be here was to decrease the claimed sales figures of several music artists (including Jackson). On the other hand, if we take into account all the discussions in which Harout72 has been involved to date, I think there has been an attitude of preserving Elvis Presley's inflated figures by Harout72, or even of defending inflated sales figures fabricated by him (Harout72 stated "The same goes for Presley, just the UK has 17.3 million certified units, which generates under 10% of the global music sales, and the UK has launched its certification system in 1973, surely it would've been close to 50 million if they had been certifying since 1958, like the US."), resulting from speculation. And it is exactly the same with the current methodology that governs the List. However, this situation is not limited to that, as Harout72's negative attitude towards other users' perspectives can be seen even in discussions that are not related to specific artists, like this one about multi-disc albums sales figures, where users provided references to a Rolling Stone article or even an email from RIAA confirming the double counting. Salvabl (talk) 19:47, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I Support a TBAN of Harout72 as suggested by user:Snow Rise. I've caught up on reading all this drama, and he seems to be the recurring issue. Pacack (talk) 01:36, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Support topic ban based on the analysis by Snow Rise above. I had skipped over this discussion but noticed it last night and wished to provide my perspective. Gusfriend (talk) 22:32, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Salvabl

The user Harout72 has brought this "matter" here again, as he has done in the past, but this time is different from the others. In the List's Talk page there is a discussion about the certified sales percentages requirements that user Harout72 has defended on several occasions, but he has not added a single message to the discussion this time, as can be seen in this section of the Talk page.

He is just doing the same thing he has done in the past: labeling our behavior as disruptive when we express a point of view that he does not support. This is not the first time that user Harout72 has refused discussion and the search for a common consensus, as last February the content of the "Definitions" section of the List (which contains conditions for the management of the List now and in the future) was unilaterally changed by Harout72, even though the matter was being discussed on the List's Talk page at that moment. One of the goals of that change was to prevent any possible future increase in the claimed sales of artists such as Michael Jackson, Madonna or Elton John. And I, despite that attitude, made proposals so that part of the text added by Harout72 could stand, even when direct removal would have been the most appropriate action due to the unilaterality of his action (because of that, and because of statements made by him such as "you guys are wasting your time" directed to other users, it is appropriate to assert that this is a case of WP:OWNERSHIP). I think there has been too much collective patience with user Harout72. And what he did after I objected to that change was to start this discussion at ANI, which was centered on accusations about the possible existence or non-existence of racial bias in the List, which was simply a red herring to divert attention from the unilateral change made by Harout72 in the "Definitions" section.

I have always offered him an open door to dialogue, which he has rejected through accusations about alleged intentions to inflate Jackson's figures. Did I vote in favor of increasing the claimed sales figure of the Thriller album in this recent RfC? No, because I didn't even think it was the right time to discuss it, and to avoid possible conflicts between users. My only involvement in that RfC consisted of short messages providing information that I thought might be useful; to which the user Harout72, if he disagreed, did not even reply. Despite his knowledge about music sales, he simply refuses to get the point, and maybe that is the reason why his impartiality, and therefore the impartiality of the List, has been questioned. I, in my recent messages (see here) supported an eventual removal of The Beatles' 600M figure, stating at the same time that the coherent would be to remove Presley's 500M figure as well, since, I think it is a fact that it would be incorrect for both music acts to have the same highest claimed sales figure (500M) when The Beatles' certified sales are almost 60M higher than Presley's. Considering Harout72's words this idea must seem bad to him, but what he has not remarked is that I also stated in my message this: "and there would have to be a discussion about what to do with Michael Jackson's 400M figure, or change other figures", as I see as a good option to leave only the 350M claimed sales figure for Jackson and the 360M claimed sales figure for Presley; I think it would make the list more accurate. But leaving all that aside now, I think this new accusation made by Harout72 is just another attempt to maintain full control over the List and its claimed sales figures. Salvabl (talk) 02:33, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

While I agree with the three of you (editors named in this complaint) on the merits, just some friendly advice: the length of your comments is hindering resolution of this issue (and it was the same at the last ANI). It's not your fault, but there's three of you, and while individually your comments aren't too long, together it's 3x for the rest of us to read, and the substance of your (collective) message is getting lost amidst the total length. Just my opinion/advice. Levivich 05:51, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I almost said the same thing myself: These responses are so lengthy and bogged down with music methodology lingo that it scares people potentially offering outside help away. I think it's part of the reason why this still isn't resolved after so many prior discussions. Sergecross73 msg me 13:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps there could be a word limit placed on an RfC on the page, for any one reply. FrederalBacon (talk) 20:15, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the length of my messages, I'll try to write shorter messages in the future. The problem here has its origin years ago, and retrospective is necessary in order to have context about this situation. Yet, there are many actions by Harout72 that I've had to omit in order not to create an extremely long message, and which are relevant, such as his opinion about a racist message, or his silence after being asked for sources to support the inflated figure of 24M that he added to the certified sales of Presley's Christmas Album. The worst part of all this is that I'm being compelled to not talk about music sales as we should because Harout72 himself has also stopped doing so, choosing ANI reports instead. Salvabl (talk) 02:26, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Skippo10

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Skippo10 (talk · contribs) has a long history of disruptive and poor editing, including adding unsourced content to BLPs, and has been blocked twice before (2007 for 3RR, 2018 for removing AFD tags from articles). They continue to add unsourced content to BLPs and me and another admin (@ChrisTheDude:) have recently tried to explain to him about repeated OVERLINK violations. I fear this editor lacks the competence to edit. GiantSnowman 15:40, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I will say that sports articles in general are huge violators of WP:OVERLINK the way they're structured and generally edited. Especially sports teams. Canterbury Tail talk 17:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I have been editing for a number of years, and feel on the whole I do things pretty well, I believe this is a personal attack from GiantSnowman on me, I'm not sure why, every so often I make the occasional mistake, and feel a bit of guidance sometimes would be enough, but it appears that GiantSnowman is following my every move, and waiting to find any opportunity to get me blocked from editing and I feel ultimately I am being bullied by this user. Skippo10 (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Skippo10 do you see how some of your responses (e.g. I don't know what you are talking about. [5], thanks for trying to get me blocked...really nice of you to essentially find ways to bully people who work hard editing and bringing articles up to date, but some admins like to flex their muscles don't they [6]) do not endear you to uninvolved users who view these disputes? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:58, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Your talk page - going back 16 years - is absolutely littered with warnings and comments from multiple other users regarding your poor editing - violation of MOS (mainly OVERLINK), not using edit summaries, adding POV, poor page moves, edit warring, adding unsourced content to BLPs - the list goes on. It is not the "occasional mistake", it is a clear lack of competence. I am not trying to get you blocked or bully you, I am trying to stop your ongoing disruption. Your attitude here says everything we need to know. GiantSnowman 21:00, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Contrary to the above, I don't feel Skippo "does things pretty well". They have a massive problem with WP:OR; they spent the summer updating club articles with lists of "unregistered" players (see e.g. this or this), which were completely unsourced (and to my knowledge, unverifiable). They did something similar in 2020 too when the listed players as 'out of contract' despite this not being verifiable. Number 57 21:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I feel I learnt from that terrible mistake, very difficult at the level of football I update to get everything right, anyway if you lot want me blocked I guess its going to happen, its a shame you admins can't offer support to us non admins really instead of ganging up and going through the archives to prove your points. Skippo10 (talk) 21:25, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

If you learnt from it, why did you do pretty much the same thing (on at least a dozen articles) two years later??? And I have offered advice on a few occasions. The problem is that in most cases you react to anyone disagreeing with you by claiming you're being bullied (I see at least three claims of being bullied on your talkpage). Number 57 21:32, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand how editing and generally adding links to what I do is an ongoing disruption. I feel it is bullying, I am not going to cower down in the corner because the admins are ganging up on me. Skippo10 (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

These essays may be of use to you: WP:1AM, WP:TINC — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:33, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Skippo10's talk page shows years of editors trying to get them to understand the problems with some of their edits, and a lack of receptiveness or willingness to learn on Skippo's part. Refusal to improve or change their editing practices based on feedback indicates a lack of competence, particularly for an editor with Skippo's longevity on the project. Schazjmd (talk) 21:33, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Refusal to improve or change their editing practices based on feedback indicates a lack of competence. Sadly, I am forced to agree. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:34, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinitely block Skippo10 because competence is required

Skippo10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

See above thread. This user's talk page depicts years of other editors attempting to help them understand the rules around here. Plus 2x temporary blocks for failure to actually correct that behavior. And all of that advice is met with empty pleas, WP:IDHT, or promises to improve, without evidence of actual improvement. Add to this the user's continual appeal that, in essence, all admins are aligned against me. [7] [8] This wiki is not a no-holds-barred cage match. It is a project which requires competence and careful attention to the rules. For this reason, we should indefinitely block Skippo10 via community consensus, as a preventative action to inhibit future disruption. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll save you the time, I have retired on Wikipedia, I'll delete the app and move on to different pastures, I don't need this shit. Skippo10 (talk) 21:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC) (now retired)

I'm afraid retiring in the middle of an ANI thread is often seen as an attempt to avoid scrutiny. How do we know you won't quietly un-retire later on when the heat is off? Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Support - This is extreme levels of IDHT and CIR. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:01, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Support A scroll through the talk indicates 15 years of editors trying to collaborate, notify, and improve, and there has been none. Probably should have been blocked after this, TBH FrederalBacon (talk) 07:29, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Support Per link above and users comments here. Although- points for the irony of them calling users trying to warn them keyboard warriors when they are infact warrioring from their keyboard.... Points lost for them failing to realize the irony on their own. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Support Years upon years of disruption without improvement despite other editors trying to help, yea at some point you have had enough chances. --TylerBurden (talk) 13:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Constant reversion of edits by User:Thenightaway on Leyla Aliyeva

Constant reversion of edits by User:Thenightaway on Leyla Aliyeva

I am worried about the behaviour of User:Thenightaway on Leyla Aliyeva. Here's my case: In line with WP:BOLD, WP:GF and WP:NPOV, I made the following edits on Leyla Aliyeva:

International Dialogue for Environmental Action

In July 2011, Aliyeva launched the International Dialogue for Environmental Action (IDEA), an international environmental NGO that works to promote awareness and education of environmental issues.

Awards and recognition

• 2011 - Received the Key to Life award of the Children's Cancer and Blood Foundation(CCBF) in New York

• 2012 - Received Special International Honorary Award for Environmental Protection at the 6th International Environmental Project Olympiad (Inepo-Euroasia) held on April 6-7 in Baku

The edits above are factual and are clearly inline with WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV and WP:GNG. But User:Thenightaway reverted the edits minutes after tagging them as "Puffery" and "COI". This is never puffery. Also, I don't have any COI issue on this. I only made a good faith edits in line with WP:BOLD

A look at the history of the page reveals that User:Thenightaway has been in the habit of reverting edits on the page. He prevents other editors from updating the page by reverting their edits. This is quite disheartening.

I am saddened about this. I believe User:Thenightaway's actions are not in line with wikipedia mission which allows good faith edits from all editors. I feel so bad about this to be sincere.

I am bringing up the notice here admins to review the scenario. I believe there are no issues with the edits I made. The edits are factual and properly sourced. They are also written in line with WP:NPOV. These are never spammy.

I don't want to engage in "Edit wars" with User:Thenightaway. I want the edits to be re-added because they are inline with wikipedia guidelines. Thanks.Phedhima (talk) 16:01, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

References

• I do not see a single comment by either of you on the talk page of the article. Before coming to ANI, you need to first discuss the content differences on the article talk page. Admin do not decide content, we only deal with behavior, and since no effort has been made to discuss it, I would opt to not act at all here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I mean, they're not wrong. The edit you made is just puffery of non-notable awards and a seemingly non-notable organisation. Canterbury Tail talk 16:23, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

The article in question has been rife with WP:COI problems for more than a decade (a glance at the article history shows that veteran editors have had to periodically clean puffery and fluff from the article). The edits made by this editor (whose sole edit history is to (i) create an article for an obscure TV show months before the show started and (ii) add the same puffery to the Leyla Aliyeva article that WP:COI accounts previously added) are pure promotional and have no added value for an encyclopedic article on the subject. In my view, there are good reasons to initiate a sockpuppet investigation based on these edits[9][10], but that's not something for ANI to evaluate. Thenightaway (talk) 16:44, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you User:Dennis Brown. I am sorry I didn't discuss about this on the "talk page". I never knew. I have tried now to raise the issue on the talk page but it seems the talk page is now working out well. In any case, I only want to understand the reason for the incessant reversal of a sourced and factual content that I added in line with wiki guidelines. The subject in question appears to have won several awards. I only picked two that have good WP:RS. I see many other pages with "Awards" section. The other edit is also backed up by WP:RS. I really don't understand the reason for the incessant reversion by User:Thenightaway. The behaviour is discouraging and worrisome. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.Phedhima (talk) 21:11, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

This is why you use the talk page, to learn what is and isn't considered "notable" in the way of awards. There are tons of awards that sound notable, but aren't for example. I have no comment on the merits here, just saying that things aren't always what they seem and any problem must start with dialog. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:30, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Non-notable positions with non-notable organizations, awards from non-notable organizations, an award from an organization that there is no actual evidence of her having received outside her personal website and a celebrity site with zero credibility, and sources all sourced to the state news agency of your father's country which is renowned for having no freedom of journalism. I think that about covers it. Canterbury Tail talk 21:47, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I would still encourage them to use the talk page rather than come here.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:38, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. However I may open an SPI as it seems there are multiple accounts trying to add the exact same things on that article. Canterbury Tail talk 13:36, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail: do you still thinks this needs to be done? Doug Weller talk 18:42, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe, I haven't had the time. It's just rather suspicious that so many accounts are adding pretty much the same non-notable puffery to that article. Canterbury Tail talk 18:48, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Atlanta IPs violating BLP

2600:1700:D390:2DF0:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

Some Atlanta-based IPs have added falsehoods to BLPs. The person changed the first wife's surname and added a child to Ted Nugent.[11] They are also clumsily adding biography info[12] and changing England to UK and back. WP:CIR is an issue.

Last January they were busy whitewashing the Ted Nugent biography, removing negative material, for which they were rangeblocked for six months.[13]

The IP range is Special:Contributions/2600:1700:D390:2DF0:0:0:0:0/64. Can we set a longer rangeblock? Binksternet (talk) 20:04, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Still a problem! Today the person added unsupported political party affiliation to Stevie Nicks.[14] Let's get this thing capped. Binksternet (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Ongoing. Looking at the range contributions for last 2 days but it appears an IP block is appropriate. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Combining the ongoing disruptive (or at least not constructive) editing through current time, and the history and IP range's prior block history, I have applied a 1 year block on editing article space and linked to this ANI for discussion. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Laska666

I stumbled across Anglo-Vietnamese conflict (1808) a couple of weeks ago, and was struck by its claim that a British expeditionary force had been repelled by a local force with loss, yet there appeared to be no sources focusing on the Royal Navy to substantiate what should be readily verifiable losses. I went so far as to order a copy of one of the sources cited, The Mandarin Road to Old Hue by Alistair Lamb, and found that the page references made no mention of anything like that, or even pertained to that year. I approached Laska666 (talk · contribs) with my concern [15] and they altered the sourcing [16]. Another editor alluded to past issues that I haven't been able to track down [17], and I am starting to think that there are broader issues with this editor. I've tagged the article as a possible hoax and will send it to AfD shortly, but I am starting to think there is a broader pattern here. Other eyes on this editor's articles would be appreciated, preferably with subject knowledge of Vietnamese history. Acroterion (talk) 00:58, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• I just looked at that article and, that would require a navigational error of extreme incompetence not something the Royal Navy was known for. You'd physically have to sail westwards and not eastwards to end up in the Gulf of Tonkin, that's definitely not a minor mishap and it would definitely have been documented and investigated. I think it definitely warrants further investigation. I can't locate any other sources either and it does seem like it could be a hoax. Canterbury Tail talk 01:23, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
• For convenience, all the page pages he has created: [18] Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• Nduai Kabait rebellion is entirely based on a doctoral thesis from 1987 (but cited in the article as 2013). I have only found paper and microfiche copies (no digital) so far, so it seems highly unlikely that this is actually a source for the information in the article. The first page of Google just gets wikipedia mirrors. -- asilvering (talk) 04:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
• 1782 Saigon massacre appears to be legitimate. FrederalBacon (talk) 05:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
• I gave this user a warning for copyright violations in January 2021; I can't exactly recall if there were issues with source-to-text integrity. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 19:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
• Anglo-Vietnamese conflict (1808) is at AfD [19] Acroterion (talk) 00:54, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
• Comment': Laska666 has not really responded to these concerns and has not edited since this has been at ANI. This is the same behavior that Laska666 exhibited in the last two instances where they were brought to ANI (racist personal attacks in January 2021 and post-AfD disruptive editing in August 2021). While they did not continue the same behavior upon their return (to my knowledge, maybe Qiushufang or Donald Trung know better), they never addressed or acknowledged their serious conduct issues. Same with the other concerns on their user talk page that were summarily ignored and later deleted (old version of their user talk page).
  One might expect Laska666 to avoid editing until this ANI thread is archived and then pretend that it never happened, just as they did in the last two ANI episodes. — MarkH₂₁^talk 18:01, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

  In view of the comment above, I am contemplating a block for Laska666 from article space until the issues with their referencing and sourcing are satisfactorily addressed. Acroterion (talk) 22:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

  I would support. For starters, WP:Communication is required, and second, I can't help but wonder if there some hoaxes, or what, so an explanation is required here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:53, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed. If they cannot address their faux sourcing, this should result in administrative action to prevent future disruption. — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:21, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

My impression of Laska was that there was overall improvement in their behavior over time but that may just be a result of less editing on pages I am watching. Qiushufang (talk) 23:01, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• I just came across this at AfD. From developments in that discussion it doesn't look like Anglo-Vietnamese conflict (1808) is a hoax but, IMO, demonstrates a lack of understanding of notability standards (others may disagree). I am more shocked that there were no sanctions for these overt racist attacks! Shame on our administrators for letting that go unchecked at the time. Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:41, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

  They still seem to be making these racist/personal attacks in edit summaries. Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:55, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

  I've blocked Laska666 from article space. This is indefinite in the strict sense, until they satisfactorily address concerns about their conduct and editing. They can't go into possum mode and hope this blows over. Acroterion (talk) 23:44, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

disruptive static IP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

185.217.158.63 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This IP address is an SPA editing in the topic of free software and intellectual property. They seem to have a grudge against the word "content", leading them to replace it in various pages around the project. The effects of this are often harmful to the pages, including such nonsensical results as this and others. They also seem to be pushing a copyleft POV onto articles, such as by replacing terms like "intellectual property theft" with "unauthorized copying".

The latter isn't necessarily problematic in and of itself, except that, upon receiving pushback from me at Online piracy, they've taken to edit warring a warning template on my talk page along with threats to report me if I continue to remove it. see [20], [21], [22] & [23].

The IP has previously directed users to discuss on talk, but has so far refused to discuss their edits on the Online piracy talk page, despite me opening a section about it. Since this is a static IP, there should be no collateral damage from a block. Happy (Slap me) 14:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The IPs counter report, should be separate from this report. To avoid confusion. GoodDay (talk) 14:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

This user repeatedly reverts my edits with POV terms such as "content" and "intellectual property" despite my best efforts to replace them with unbiased terms.

e.g. There is no such thing as a "content filter" -- this is just censorship.

This user also demonstrated his love of censorship by repeatedly censoring my many attempts to talk to him on his user page, instead of communicating.

As this user is new, with few, insubstantial edits, and a penchant for using biased terms, I recommend an immendiate permanent ban. 185.217.158.63 (talk) 14:25, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

There will be no immediate permanent ban. GoodDay (talk) 14:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

As a FYI I have just changed "censorship filters" to "filtering technology" on the page Trade group efforts against file sharing as that the term that the reference uses. It is worth remembering that part of writing on Wikipedia is to represent what the sources say.Gusfriend (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that this is a content issue. All parties should abandon trying to address it on user talk pages. The discussion at Talk:Online piracy#Bias claims, if contained to edits not editors, should be enough to resolve issues. My two cents. _signed, Willondon (talk) 14:59, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, I was happy to discuss the issue, until the IP began edit warring threats and warnings on my talk page. Also, a look through their contributions shows that this is an ongoing problem for them.

A previous example of their harassing behavior can be see in Ahunt's user talk archives, where Ahunt noted that the IP's editing resulted in page protection for the article due to persistent vandalism.

If the IP were willing to engage in a civil manner, I would be happy to discuss the issue. Indeed, the replacement of "content" with other words is a perfectly reasonable matter for discussion. The repeated use of warning templates, threats, edit warring and hyperbolic language about "POV", however, is a behavioral issue, not a content one. Happy (Slap me) 15:15, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with User:HappyMcSlappy's complaint here. This static IP has a long history of Wikipedia:Tendentious editing and POV pushing and, as noted above in my own user talk page archive, has had pages that had to be protected to prevent them editing them as a result. Clearly WP:NOTHERE and a classic example of WP:OWB case #3. Taken over the IP's history, this goes beyond any current content dispute and now requires further admin action. - Ahunt (talk) 15:48, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Both of these users have a documented history of reverting my edits, thereby restoring biased terms on articles I was replacing with unbiased ones.

Ahunt even complained to an admin to ban me instead of politely discussing the issue.

Also, insulting me by calling me case #3 is childish, as from my prespective, that's exactly how I view Ahunt.

185.217.158.63 (talk) 16:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I would also like to add this diatribic section of Quetstar's talk page, which happened after the IP was blocked over this same behavior. Happy (Slap me) 16:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

That user, like you, was causing tremendous trouble and stalking me.

Some people are very reluctant to question their own beliefs, even when presented with evidence which proves them wrong, such as when they use biased terms. After all, they must be unbiased if other people have been using them for 20 years, right? Right?

185.217.158.63 (talk) 16:18, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I was not causing ANY trouble nor did i stalk you, I was just enforcing WP policy and maintaining neutrality. Quetstar (talk) 16:22, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

"Maintaining neutrality" by using biased terms. Peak irony.

185.217.158.63 (talk) 16:25, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Your attempt to re-name this report, as though it was about others? is quite troubling. GoodDay (talk) 16:36, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• I am about >< this close to blocking the 187.215 IP for recidivist tendencies towards harassment, given their prior block for the exact same behavior, and their repeated statements here that amount to refusal to accept responsibility for the disruption caused by their aggressive behavior. The content issues are entirely separate from this. Looking at the contributions from 187.215 I see very little-to-no use of the article talk pages to discuss changes and resolve disputes, and I see many times where they aggressively use warning templates and the like as a means to bully others and drive them away. I haven't blocked them yet, because I want to see if they are willing to change their behavior, to use article talk pages and seek dispute resolution when discussions at article talk pages fail to resolve issues, to refrain from casting aspersions against others and focus discussions on content rather than editors, and to voluntarily refrain from issuing any more warnings; as they clearly don't know how to use such warnings appropriately. 187.215: Can you agree to these behavioral modifications on your part? --Jayron32 16:28, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Jayson's observations. GoodDay (talk) 16:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• I'm ok with a block here. Lot of pompous strutting going on, which isn't conducive to building an encyclopedia. As to offering the second chance, ok, but I think you're casting pearls before swine. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:40, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I feel like I am being ganged up on by many users, and two admins using the ad populum fallacy. The only reason I use these templates is because the accounts refuse to engage with a humble IP editor. I have been willing to use the talk pages the entire time, but these editors are not: see HappyMcSlappy's comment on Talk:Online piracy for instance.

Accusing me of IDHT is a self-fulfilling prophecy and an excuse to ban me, because if I do anything but profusely apologise, cap in hand, begging at the feet of the admins not to ban me, then they will give themselves the excuse to ban me, despite the fact that I am trying to use the talk pages, but these users refuse to talk!

185.217.158.63 (talk) 17:42, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

It's funny how *I'm* accused of "recedivist tendencies" for defending myself, but when HappyMcSlappy censors his talk page, the admins let the account editor get away Scot-free! This is blatant predjudice against an IP editor.

185.217.158.63 (talk) 17:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure that gaslighting admins is the way to go, but it's your choice. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:48, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I have presented evidence that I am talking on the talk page, but HappyMcSlappy is not. Put your admin ego aside and focus on the issue. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not to harass IP editors.

185.217.158.63 (talk) 17:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

By all means, please continue, you're making your point so well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:35, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

An editor is allowed to remove comments from their own talk page. There are only four things that can't be removed by a user from their own talk. Other than that, they don't have to leave your warnings up. See WP:OWNTALK and WP:NOTWALLOFSHAME for further information. Also see WP:DRRC that advises against restoring removed user talk page comments if the user removes it from their own talk. FrederalBacon (talk) 17:58, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

As you can see on Talk:Online piracy, I am happily communicating, but HappyMcSlappy refuses to talk. 185.217.158.63 (talk) 21:55, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• Jayron32, I do believe you've gotten an answer to the question you've posed the IP, even if they've thus far neglected to do so directly. If you'd like to visit Talk:Online piracy#Bias claims, you can see the quality of 'discussion' the IP is engaged in. If you don't care to read through, then just know that it consists of the same 'I'm right and everyone else is wrong because I say so' diatribe that they've filled this thread with. I really don't see any upside to letting them continue. Happy (Slap me) 22:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

You literally described yourself as "copyleft" which demonstrates once and for all that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are the one not engaging in debate.

185.217.158.63 (talk) 09:35, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

HappyMcSlappy reverted my edits for no reason: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/1106402815 which had to be un-reverted by Willondon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/1106403517 That is evidence HappyMcSlappy is not here to build an encyclopedia, but to harass me. 185.217.158.63 (talk) 13:45, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Willondon almost immediately restored the bulk of Happy's revert. There is no evidence that Happy is WP:NOTHERE nor that their objective is to harass you, only that the two of you are on opposite sides of a content dispute. Schazjmd (talk) 14:48, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Per Schazjmd, Willodon clearly also disagrees with your mass removal. Please allow consensus to develop on the article talk page for your changes; if the consensus develops in the other direction, 185.217, then you have no recourse, and are just going to not get your way here. --Jayron32 14:52, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• Could another admin take a look here, please? I'm not happy with the way this IP continues to respond to comments I made in discussion with other editors to cast shade and hurl insults. The IP has a highly idiosyncratic view of this issue (see their claims about 'copyleft' above) and is aggressive towards anyone who disagrees with them. Even on the one matter in which we have had some interaction of my own volition above, they've felt the need to wildly misrepresent the nature of that interaction. This behavior is highly tedious, and warrants more than a second last chance, IMHO. Happy (Slap me) 15:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I also think it is time to close this thread and block this IP. They have been given a chance above, but have made it clear that they are not going to stop their disruption and POV-pushing and are just wasting our time here playing the victim and casting aspersions. Can we can have this resolved in a timely manner, please? - Ahunt (talk) 15:25, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure why it has even gone on this long. They edited the subject of this report to make it appear like it wasn't about him. I can't believe they didn't get a block then, they're clearly not listening to anyone here. 24.231.195.82 (talk) 15:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

"POV pushing"? Unlike my accusers, I've spent this whole time trying to remove biased terms. I am actively engaging in dialogue on the talk page but McSlappy is the one immediately reverting my contributions. I belive this demonstrates I am cooperating but my accusers are not. I also demonstrated McSlappy knows nothing about the issues on which he is reverting my contributions, because he described himself as "copyleft". He still doesn't know what copyleft means because he called my views on copyleft "idiosyncratic". Copyleft is a legal technique for licensing works, McSclappy. Unless you are a license for a published work, calling yourself "copyleft" makes no sense whatsoever. I am happy to forgive my accusers if they end this harassment against me, a humble IP editor.185.217.158.63 (talk) 15:50, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

May we have a 'list' of your accusers? GoodDay (talk) 15:56, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Those on this thread casting aspersions against me; McSlappy, Ahunt, etc.185.217.158.63 (talk) 15:58, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for a week. The IP needs to drop the battleground mentality. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:33, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Hopefully, that week will give them the opportunity to lower their hackles and engage with people who don't share their POV. Happy (Slap me) 17:42, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the action taken. I hope we are not back here in a week... - Ahunt (talk) 19:35, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Reference Adding Account

Reference Adding Account (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user was created 3 June 2022, and in the time since, has made 86 edits (and counting). When it's "up and running" (as in today between 12:31 UTC and 13:33 UTC), it made an edit, on average, every 2-3 minutes. It has done so every Tuesday and Wednesday in August as far as I can tell [24]. It refers to itself in the plural (e.g. "we") All it does is add references to (mostly) scientific articles.

En face, this doesn't sound like a problem (if we overlook possibly being a bot, etc). But there are moreover many issues with some of their references. It appears that many of the citations added are proximal to the content the citation is added to verify, but, upon further inspection, do not actually verify that content. All of the cites (at least all the ones I have combed through) are added to sentences which already have citations (curious...) and many are also WP:PRIMARY.

Examples of blatantly incorrect citations

is added to "Words that are commonly spoken or learned early in life or easily imagined are quicker to say than ones that are rarely said, learnt later in life, or are abstract" [25] despite being a paper about reading, not speaking. is added to "Subsequent studies found that ivermectin could inhibit replication of SARS-CoV-2 in monkey kidney cell culture with an IC50 of 2.2–2.8 μM." [26] despite being a paper about an in vivo dose-ranging study in rats. is added to "As it has become possible to study the living human brain, researchers have begun to watch neural decision-making processes at work. Studies have revealed unexpected things about human agency, moral responsibility, and consciousness in general." [27] despite this being a review of a textbook (as in evaluating the book itself, not the arguments therein). is added to "Even though there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptions of race are untenable," [28] despite the paper making no claim on the consensus for essentialist or typological conceptions of race. It's a paper about the sociological impacts of racial hierarchies. See what I mean? adjacent but not correct. is added to "There is evidence that distribution and/or function of this receptor may differ between sexes" [29] despite having only one very passing mention of sex differences, which does not refer to either the "distribution" or molecular "function" of the receptors. is added to "Each atom in a graphene sheet is connected to its three nearest neighbors by a strong σ-bond, and contributes to a valence band one electron that extends over the whole sheet. This is the same type of bonding seen in carbon nanotubes and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and (partially) in fullerenes and glassy carbon." [30] despite the paper having no mentions of sigma bonds, valence bonds, or differences in bond makeup between the listed types of carbon nano-structures. is added to "On November 2, 2017, scientists reported that significant changes in the position and structure of the brain have been found in astronauts who have taken trips in space, based on MRI studies. Astronauts who took longer space trips were associated with greater brain changes." [31] despite the ref being a comment (and therefore not only PRIMARY but also non-peer-reviewed and only 2 sentences long, but also completely unrelated to the question of whether structural changes occur, but instead disputing which type occur. is added to "Neanderthals made use of a wide array of food, mainly hoofed mammals, but also other megafauna, plants..." [32] despite the paper being about human teeth and not related to Neanderthals at all. There are probably more errors, these are just the ones I could find in about 30 minutes of looking. Sources

Some of the added citations are actually good, and do verify the content, but are still added to sentences which already have 2 or 3 (or even 4) citations already! (e.g. [33] [34] [35] [36] [37])

Doug Weller has pointed out the user has also employed very low-quality journals (e.g. Advances in...) and the user replied they were unaware that a list of predatory journals existed anywhere.

Is this an unauthorized bot? Or just multiple users all logged in to one account doing this one task? My best guess is that it's a semi-automated process, wherein current cites are examined, diagramed (e.g. CitationGecko), and high-connectivity cites are added. Could also be papers which reference current citations? Truthfully, it could be a variety of things.

Bottom-line, is this something we want on Wikipedia? Is this user HERE to build an encyclopedia? Are they here to run an unauthorized machine learning experiment? I am very curious to see what this user has to say! All in all, it could be something that is very useful to the project, but the current incarnation has fatal flaws (imho). — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:28, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure this account is WP:HERE for a variety of reasons but I think it should at minimum be blocked from mainspace until it can be determined how many people are using it since it really does appear to be shared (or a bot) PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Blocked from article space indefinitely. Told to respond here. Doug Weller talk 18:44, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I think, at baseline, I also would love some help combing through their remaining edits and figuring out which ones need reverted. I'm going to go ahead and revert the ones I pointed out above as problematic. We may need a full scale revert if consensus is that auto-adding citations to places that already have many multiple cites is also unacceptable. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Looking at some of these, I don't understand how they're remotely related to the subject, it looks like they just searched one keyword and threw in a ref, but I don't have full access to the sources themselves (or honestly the knowledge of a lot of those subjects) to make a determination. PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:48, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

In the back of my head I have a very fuzzy memory of another editor adding references that were mainly useless, like a third or fourth ref to a fact. But I have no idea when that was. The Banner talk 19:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello, once again. I am surprised that you are calling these references "useless", they do expand and further verify content which Wikipedia claims. It took a great effort finding them. Once again, I truly think that a few minutes skim of this account activity can back the claims being raised here. I truly don't see which Wikipedia rule is being broken. If you have reverted any of the citations that were added by this account, I kindly ask User:Shibbolethink to undo the reverts you have done, and please, in future opportunities to raise a query in my talk page instead of unilaterally deleting this account's contribution.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Reference Adding Account (talk • contribs) 15:49, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello, this is user Reference Adding Account writing. I am a researcher at Universidad Torcuato Di Tella (link to my webpage here). This account is of my own, but currently being managed on a day-to-day basis by a research assistant working with me. This is why I refer with "we" in the responses. We are adding references to Wikipedia, and we are taking great care in no infringing any of the Wikipedia rules. I am open to suggestions. In fact, as you can check, upon being informed not to add references to journals listed as predatory by Wikipedia, we stopped adding citations from these journals. I am quite surprised that some editors found the references added as not relevant, given that we took a great work in checking for their pertinence (something I am not completely sure the editor(s) raising concerns really did). For sure this account is not a bot nor part of a machine learning experiment. Please tell us if there is any infringement on the Wikipedia rules and we will take that into account. At least as I see it, highly pertinent citations are being added to the articles, which is positive to the community overall. More comment below.

Hello, Reference Adding Account (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) writing here again. As mentioned above, these references were carefully selected, they do expand on the references where they were placed and are highly related to the topic being discussed. We checked this using different sources. Finding these references took months of work and I am surprised that just by a simple 30 minutes check the editor is so confident in its claims. If you feel necessary, we can defend each of the examples listed above. Regarding the references listed below. I know these are good references. I would like to know why it would be a problem to expand on sentences already having citations. Does this violates any Wikipedia rule? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reference Adding Account (talk • contribs) 15:41, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Noting here that I moved comments by Reference Adding Account that were added without signature in the middle of the discussion to the end of the section. - MrOllie (talk) 19:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Reference Adding Account, I don't know if your edits violate Wikipedia policy but please read WP:UN which states in the second sentence "It also specifies that a user account should be used only by one person...". You allowing your assistant to use the same account as you is a violation of one person/one account laid out in Wikipedia's username policy. --ARoseWolf 19:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

You may also want to read WP:OVERCITATION, for an explanation of why adding too many sources to one sentence is often problematic. I spend a lot of time checking if sources verify the sentence they are put next to, to remove misleading claims or figure out if a better source is needed. This is a common way editors improve the accuracy of Wikipedia. This becomes much more difficult if I need to check more sources, especially when they are not immediately relevant. Femke (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Aside from the problems pointed out above, which include citations in Neanderthals to an article exclusively about homo sapiens (Neanderthals did not live in Peru [38]), among other clear mis-cites... there are also a great deal of WP:PRIMARY article citations. Do you understand, @Reference Adding Account, the difference between primary and secondary journal articles? On wikipedia, adding a primary article where a secondary article is already referenced is not compliant with WP:RS, as interpretation of primary sources is considered original research, which is not permitted on wikipedia.

I would also like to point out, your webpage states you are a researcher studying how state-of-the-art machine learning and natural language processing (NLP) techniques can aid in understanding social, business and economic phenomena.. Is this account part of a research project into Natural-Language Processing? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, Reference Adding Account, I noticed that some of your research is about references. Is your activity on Wikipedia part of a research project? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Ah good catch: [39] [40] [41] [42] — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:09, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

And this comment by Reference Adding Account really makes it sound like research: This account is of my own, but currently being managed on a day-to-day basis by a research assistant working with me. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:54, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Apparently the account used to be named "Citations researcher" [43] — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:25, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Update: I have gone through the user's edits and reverted those which were:

• A) explicitly WP:PRIMARY where a secondary scholarly source was already cited, or
• B) the citation did not verify the content, in an obvious way.

Overall it appears 39 of 84 edits met explicit reversion criteria. I didn't do them all myself, so thanks for the help those of you who did! Some remaining edits may still be unjustified, but would leave it up to everyone else to see for themselves and weigh in (i.e. I did not revert WP:OVERCITE, though that is in my opinion a good reason to revert). — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Update: JJMC89 has indefinitely blocked the user from all namespaces given that it is, as admitted, a compromised account.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:54, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

https://www.socialscienceregistry.org/trials/9937 maybe related to this? It’s a “field experiment” where citations are added to Wikipedia articles and then (the description is a bit weird) tracked somehow - lead by the researcher that used to operate the bot/account above. Mvbaron (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Interesting find. They were going to add 980 references to Wikipedia and track metrics on those as compared to 1960 "control references" not added to Wikipedia. The trial was supposed to start Sept 1, but perhaps he jumped the gun, or was doing a test run. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

What's interesting is that if this is indeed the research project that was going on here, there's nothing inherently that prevents this person from doing it... They don't need to put citations only where there already are some. They don't need to put in bad ones which don't actually verify the content. (both of which, btw, I suspect would alter the results in a not great way). They don't need to use any automation to do it. I suppose our requirement of secondary review articles could bias the results some, but still worth doing. If they did this while following the PAGs and not disrupting the project, it could be interesting and personally, I would be curious to see the results. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:09, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello, thank you all for your suggestions and for taking the time to review all the added references. For the moment I will stop any work on this version of the project, and see if it can adapted in some way so it further goes in line with Wikipedia mission. Sadly we have a huge collection of citations that could have been added to existing pages that will not be added at all. Note that you considered most of them to be pertinent and that in some cases the citations you removed were those that were already present in the article (notable). I truly believe that by having taken this course of action we are all wasting an opportunity to directly improve articles, but more importantly, of scientifically understanding and measuring the impact of Wikipedia.

Additionally, I would very appreciate if this incident could be archived. In good faith I have shared a great deal of personal information here. In retrospective I think this was a mistake, as somehow now, in what I see as mob behavior, you started sharing information about me or my work, which I don't feel comfortable with (that's on you). I think we can all move one. If you have any inquiries, please write in my talk page.RamiroHGalvez (talk) 15:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I can hardly imagine your shock on learning that we volunteer editors don't wish to made be unwitting guinea pigs in your half-baked "experiment". And see WP:NOTLAB. EEng 08:45, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

If good faith and Mob behavior are now in play, and it is obvious that a large number of humans, by your own characterization, have been affected by this project, has any supervisory committee at your educational institution approved your research project? Did you ask or guidance from any Wikipedia organ? Can we expect an offer from you to repair the damage caused (volunteer time wasted), (propagation through the internet of suboptimal citations)? And reconsideration of the correct object of that's on you? Informed consent beats stealth—it's more ethical. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 21:28, 28 August 2022 (UTC) —

in what I see as mob behavior, you started sharing information about me or my work, which I don't feel comfortable with (that's on you) pretty sure that ones on you when you decided to operate a shared account that mass-spammed your own work in an attempt to do an experiment on Wikipedia without anyone's consent. PICKLEDICAE🥒 21:36, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Juliacohen2022

• Juliacohen2022 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Juliacohen2022 is a single purpose account whose main goal when editing has been to add information about Alex Suarez in the Alex Saab article ([44][45][46][47][48]), whose relevance has been question in the talk page (Talk:Alex Saab#Twitter). The user has few edits unrelated to or its talk page: 63% of their edits, nearly two for every three, are in the main space of Saab's article. The rest of the edits were possibly motivated because the editor was warned against this ([49]).

Despite being warned against adding unreferenced content and disruptive editing since February 2022 ([50][51][52][53][54][55]), as well as the reasons why the edits have been disputed ([56]), Juliacohen2022 has insisted with said edits. NoonIcarus (talk) 16:54, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• Um. Having looked over the various talk pages, it's not so much a vague generic "Juliacohen2022 has been warned about such edits." It's that YOU've templated her. Every single objection has been solely from you, and every single warning on her talk page has been solely from you. Far from staying silent, she has responded on the Alex Saab talk page.[57] Far from being a SPA, she has contributed to several other articles. Far from the irrelevance of her edits being proven, all I'm seeing for a rebuttal is "My comment has nothing to do with the local source WLRN being deprecated but, and I repeat, Alex Suarez having nothing to do with Alex Saab and the importance of his statements about the case, or lack thereof, better said" ... from you.[58]

  Above all, the recent edit which seems to have provoked you into this ANI filing [59] is nothing more "undue" than a single sentence -- by contrast, the article is a whopping 81kb, almost half of which you've written yourself -- stating that a certain party has written a book about the subject. You seem to be conflating a content dispute here, and I want a great deal more proof that Juliacohen2022 is defying settled consensus than that you don't like her edits, or that there's something objectionable with her making a handful of edits to this article when you've made 102.[60] Ravenswing 17:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) One of the main issues discussed at Talk:Alex Saab#Twitter, which was started by someone different from me and where Juliacohen2022 participated, was the inclusion of statements by third parties.

While I did not claim that Juliacohen2022 stayed "silent" to the complaints, she did not offer an answer to my last message in her talk page, where I specifically expressed WP:UNDUE concerns, nor in the edit summary of the change that took place the following year, without addressing said concerns. Saying that I merely "don't like" the changes does not seem like an accurate description: I have disputed the changes due to policy problems, including the addition of unreferenced content that triggered edit filters ([61][62][63]) or poorly referencing, including primary sources ([64][65][66][67]), which is even more important due to the biographies of living persons policy.

My objection raised was related to the proportion of her edits in the article (dedicating nearly 2/3 of all of her edits in Wikipedia), and not its amount per se. Like I mentioned in my original comment, I likewise was the first to invite her to edit outside this topic, which she did around two weeks afterwards ([68][69]), and it should be also be mentioned, in some cases also related to Suarez. Had I not, she possibly would not have in the first place. Last but not least, I want to point out at the important of keeping an eye out for unusual behavior considering astroturfing campaigns conducted on behalf of Alex Saab ("Logbook of pro-Alex Saab’s cyber information operation"), as well as the use of sockpuppet accounts in the Spanish version of the article (es:Wikipedia:Solicitudes de verificación de usuarios/Septiembre 2020#Tarek William Saab).

While I understand that the slow pace reverts may not warrant admin intervention, I do want to prevent further edit warring in this topic. I have tried to engage in the article's talk page and user page for six whole months, and the noticeboard seemed like the next reasonable step. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:59, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I will respond when I am seeing less red, but if you're trying to put across the notion that you do not have a severe ownership problem when it comes to this article, that you frigging dared to edit my comments here is a major, major red flag, as well as an extremely poor look from someone complaining about how another editor isn't using Wikipedia properly. Ravenswing 08:11, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I restored text that you previously wrote as strikethrough text while I was responding to the comment, a convention per WP:TPOC: is nothing more "undue" than that a certain party has written a book about the subject, and that the existence of the book is well-cited, [which was replaced by is nothing more "undue" than a single sentence -- by contrast, the article is a whopping 81kb, almost half of which you've written yourself -- stating that a certain party has written a book about the subject, which gives a different meaning to the message. However, I would like to apologize for it. I would be happy to discuss both user behavior as well as edit content dispute, but I believe you're being overly aggressive, which makes any discussion more difficult. Please consider the points that I have left here, in the article's talk page and the user's talk page. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

It sure as hell makes discussion difficult when you refactor someone's comments. Like any other editor, I am allowed to reflect upon and change my comments on the fly. There is no part of WP:TPOC under which your actions are permissible, nor do you have any excuse for taking umbrage when provocative behavior on your part is treated as provocation. Ravenswing 13:47, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

• They haven't made that many edits in the last month, just a handful. What does bother me is that Juliacohen2022 is marking most of their edits as "minor", including edits that should not be considered minor. Adding new citations and information is not minor. Correcting spelling and formatting is. But the rest of this looks like a minor content dispute, with the OP NoonIcarus being the only one disputing the edits. Needs dispute resolution, not admin intervention, from what I can see. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:26, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

  GabberFlasted just dropped a note on her talk page to that effect. Ravenswing 17:40, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

MatthewS.

MatthewS. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have attempted to engage many times through many channels to get this user to talk reasonably instead of edit-warring over a content disagreement on Egyptian pound and Template:EGP, however all my attempts have failed, with them refusing to acknowledge that they may have come to an incorrect conclusion. It feels as though I am arguing with a brick wall because no matter what I say I either receive silence or the defence "it was like that before you joined the website". Many times I have attempted to demonstrate to them how inaccurate content has sometimes slipped under the radar for years, but I never get any substantial engagement beyond a demand for agreement with them, claiming their edits are "here to stay" and that they "won't give up". TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 17:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Hey @TheCurrencyGuy, it would help if you elaborated further and provided additional dif links. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:11, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

@MatthewS. has indeed been edit-warring on Egyptian pound again today and has violated the 3RR policy. @TheCurrencyGuy is dangerously close to violating the 3RR policy. This has become a repeated occurrence on that page. Both @MatthewS. and @TheCurrencyGuy were temporarily suspended a few weeks ago for edit-warring on that same page, although @TheCurrencyGuy does seem to be making an effort to communicate on both the article talk page and @MatthewS.’ user talk page. Bgsu98 (talk) 18:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

It is difficult to provide a full list as he has made many MANY reversions to the article since 2006, but in the past other editors seemed to give up on it as a lost cause due to fear of ending up in an edit war, the edit history affirms this [70]. He seems intent on including some poorly sourced and potentially spurious material (he keeps adding back in completely unsourced statements, such as the etymology of "geneih", this may be true, but despite my asking him to offer a source he never has), and whenever its presence is questioned he defends it on the grounds of having been in the article a long time if he responds at all. All I seek to do is to include verifiable factual information in the article and try to prevent things such as citogenesis, which the "currency converter" sites he cited appear to do. The main one he relies on is Investopedia, whose page on the Egyptian pound appears to have been copypasted from an earlier version of the Wikipedia article.

To give one of the more minor examples of an error he is intent on retaining, the caption on the LE 200 banknote at the top of the infobox currently states it to be the "obverse", when the image file itself states it to be the reverse.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• These two editors had been edit-warring at Egyptian pound and were both given short blocks, and were then told to seek dispute resolution, which they did at DRN. The issue seemed to have to do with what symbols can be used to represent the Egyptian pound. It appeared that an RFC would be necessary, and that subsequent discussion should clarify exactly what the choices should be in the RFC. After more questions, it appeared that maybe they were only arguing over what symbols they preferred, in which case an RFC might not be necessary. I then asked if I should close the DRN thread as resolved. The Currency Guy then posted a complaint about MatthewS, and then posted this thread. I failed the discussion at DRN before I had seen this thread, but I would have failed the discussion if I had seen that it had gone to WP:ANI. I have tried to mediate the dispute, and am not getting clear answers as to the scope of the disagreement. I don't know what should be done. I know that DRN didn't work, and I don't think that was my mistake. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:49, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

  Apologies that I did not make myself entirely clear.

  I became frustrated at MatthewS.'s statement that he "saw no issue with the way the article currently is", of course he's happy, it reflects his personal preference, and he seems determined to keep it at a standstill, so I became a bit personal.

  It is just extremely frustrating to me the way he takes out verifiable sources because they detract from his personal preference for the dubious "E£". He seems to think I have an obsession with "forcing" £E, when infact my preference is for LE because that is the abbreviation used by the Central Bank of Egypt, currently issued Egyptian stamps, and the World Bank, and is the most common representation used by the Egyptian press. £E is supported as a rarer variation by reliable sources such as older Egyptian stamps (though as recent as 2002), the CIA World Factbook and Encyclopaedia Britannica.

  The version of the article I wish to see is one where LE is the main symbol used, reflecting actual use, with alternatives mentioned but not given the same weight. In the introduction I added a wiki note for editors stating "This appears to be the most common abbreviation for the currency and should, therefore, be the style generally used for identification", with other forms cited after that. MatthewS. took this out and replaced it with a string of potentially dubious sources, citing websites that seem to have got their information from the Wiki article, thus being a form of circular reporting. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 21:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

  • I now see that I did make a mistake, but that it wouldn't have made any difference. I didn't check the article Egyptian pound to see if MatthewS. and TheCurrencyGuy were edit-warring. They were. The rules for DRN say not to edit the article while discussion is in progress, because the discussion should decide how to edit the article. I still don't know what should be done. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

    @Robert McClenon Another user has tried to start a conversation on the article talk page about pooling sources, which seems like a good idea. Otherwise, I suspect one or both of these squabbling users will be blocked from the article if they continue the edit-warring. Bgsu98 (talk) 01:38, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

• What the fuck is it with the Egyptian pound? We've had two ANI threads, two MOSNUM threads, and a challenge to pistols at 20 paces -- and that's just in the past two weeks. Maybe it's the Curse of Tutankhamun at work. EEng 10:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

  User:EEng - There have been other mummified Pharaohs whose tombs were raided, of whom Tutankhamen was only the most recent, or most recently documented, and Cleopatra was the last, and maybe the most attractive. So take your pick from four millennia of ancient history. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:25, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, but Tutankhamum turned away from the worship of the all-powerful Aten, and he had a really cool meteorite dagger, so, you do the math.... Dumuzid (talk) 14:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

  Part of the problem is that none of the Pharaohs authorized the use of the Egyptian pound, so that they disapprove and may be causing trouble. There are gold bars in gold depositories that are marked with the signets of certain Pharaohs. They verified that those gold bars are money. And many of them were mummified by a process that took 140 days. It could be any of various Pharaohs. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

  "E£" was added to the article in August, 2005, without a source given.

  The claim about the etymology of the Egyptian name was added in November, 2005, again, with no source given.

  These two claims appear to have no supporting verifiable citations. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 13:25, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

  We are not going to resolve the editing dispute here. Please stick to discussing what behavioral issues we're supposed to be dealing with. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Continued Personal Attacks by User:Zanoni

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After this edit on August 15, [71], I left a warning here [72]. However, they continue with their personal attacks here [73], [74] and here [75]. Cleary WP:NOTHERE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportsfan 1234 (talk • contribs) 17:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Brief context - this all relates to AFDs related to soccer players since NFOOTBALL was removed following an RFC. Some editors (such as Sportsfan) have taken it on themselves to try and delete as many articles as possible - some nominations are good, some are bad. Other editors (such as Zanoni) cannot accept the change and believe that the articles should remain.

Now, on to the matter at hand - I think that the comments by Zanoni are entirely inappropriate, and they need to be removed with an apology and a commitment never to repeat them, failing which Zanoni should be indefinitely blocked (on the basis that he cannot be trusted not to repeat them). GiantSnowman 18:08, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I have blocked Zanoni for 72 hours for personal attacks and harassment. I do not believe that this rises to the level where an indefinite block is needed, but Zanoni definitely needs to abandon this type of misconduct now. Cullen328 (talk) 18:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

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User:Jepsenstan

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This user has been warned multiple times about disruptive edits in which they add non-neutral statements to Carly Rae Jepsen-related articles. Appears to be a WP:SPA with sole purpose to make these types of edits. e.g. large amount of unsourced info, unsourced on a BLP, blatant non-neutral language such as "It is highly anticipated by Jepsen's fanbase" and "pop music genius", etc. QuietHere (talk) 18:52, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Those warnings are here plus in numerous edit reverts. QuietHere (talk) 18:54, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Jepsenstan from article space. They are free to make neutral, well-referenced edit requests on article talk pages. Cullen328 (talk) 19:22, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

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Wikix645 for long-term and profane abuse

• Wikix645 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User Wikix645 is a long-time, low-frequency editor (first edit 2012, last 50 edits go back to 2015). However, over their edits in the last year and a half, the editor has repeatedly appeared on articles relating to Catholic views on sexual morality to delete content and leave uncivil edit summaries, many of which take a deeply sectarian tone. The editor was repeatedly warned following an edit war just over a year ago to cease behaving in this manner. However, despite later acknowledging fault (and deleting the evidence), the editor has returned to reinsert similar material from the initial edit war. A serious penalty would likely be excessive, considering this editor's frequency and intensity of disruption. However, the repeat and exceedingly profane nature of the edits following a prior final warning suggest that some sort of formal response is needed. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:01, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Delete my account, I wish to be dissociated with the account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikix645 (talk • contribs)

Accounts cannot be deleted. PICKLEDICAE🥒 20:08, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I apologize for the profane edit and would like to have my comment deleted if possible. ~ Wikix645 (talk) 20:32, 24 August 2022‎ (UTC)

See WP:VANISH. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:30, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• This user's comments are beyond the pale and extremely rude. I would suggest allowing them to vanish, and then permanently blocking them, honestly. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 00:19, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  Blocking them precludes taking advantage of VANISH. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:36, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Belarus feminist IPs

176.60.72.0/21 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

Someone in Belarus has been making non-neutral changes to articles about gender for the last three years, especially Misandry, Androcide and Rape of males. Typically, they take a pro-feminist stance, or one that belittles men's rights. For instance, this person removed an article published in Psychology Today as a "misogynist source". Last month, they were edit-warring about Einstein's first wife inventing the theory of relativity.[76] Today, they are continuing an edit war at Male expendability to remove the discrimination sidebar.

I sympathize with this person but I don't condone their behavior.

Can we set a rangeblock, or a partial rangeblock naming the articles of interest? Or perhaps just semi-protection for Male expendability. Binksternet (talk) 20:24, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Removing was confirmed.

I don't see any instance of discrimination in the article Male expendability. And noone can explain what is discriminated group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.60.78.50 (talk) 21:33, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

It was explained that the issue of discrimination is addressed in the article, therefore the template is relevant. It doesn't have to be something you agree with. ... discospinster _talk 22:05, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

IP is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Their refusal to engage in discussions regarding most of their edits, alongside their self-defeating pseudo feminist response to things that only emboldens misogyny and anti-feminism is not something we need around here.SinoDevonian (talk) 02:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe, on the flip side the IP seems to be the only one who tried to the discuss the dispute over the template Talk:Male expendability#"Discrimination" sidebar. (There's one reply which very slightly addresses the dispute, but is more a criticism of the wording the IP used than explaining why the template belongs.) Nil Einne (talk) 15:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Moreover, this sidebar itself doesn't contain this article. 176.60.78.50 (talk) 15:58, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

• Blocked the range 31 days for WP:DE and edit warring. This is just pure battleground tactics on the part of the IP, and zero patience. None of it justifies a party of one edit warring. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:37, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Is this a legal threat? (Moose Scheib)

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"Taking screenshots for legal evidence" (paraphrasing, not as coherent) [77] ☆ Bri (talk) 21:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe, but that is one of the ugliest BLP-violating BLPs I've seen in a long time, and it appears a single purpose account is responsible for the ugliness. If that were me I'd be making legal threats too, honestly. I think the bio should be pruned back to a stub. Does anyone know anything about this person's notability? Antandrus (talk) 21:10, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I rather WP:BOLDly restored an earlier version; anyone else interested can have at it. Antandrus (talk) 21:27, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• Close enough, and they were blocked as a sock evading a block. Diff Suppressed rather than RevDel, so I can't see it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:28, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) The IP is evading the blocks on Special:Contribs/173.171.153.52 and Wellhereiamman (talk · contribs). In some cases with angry BLP subjects it makes sense to look the other way on that, but given that the edit linked above contained an attempt at WP:OUTING, I went ahead and blocked the IP for a week. Per WP:DOLT and Antandrus, this does not mean that the editor's concerns are unfounded. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 21:29, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

  For posterity, the legal-threat-y part of the comment was as described by Bri above, plus a reference to usernames and IPs. I requested suppression over a different part of the edit. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 21:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

  The BLP issues are also being dealt with, in part by reverting back to a revision where the (unsourced) allegations weren't present. (I edit-conflicted with another user while gutting irrelevant crap, including the BLP claims and non-responsive sources, out of the article.) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 21:34, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

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Julie Croteau edited by a user named Julie Croteau

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Apparently someone editing under the username Julie Croteau (Julie Croteau (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) has made several changes to our article Julie Croteau. Some negative information removed and some other changes. Compare. I am aware the username could be blocked under WP:IMPERSONATE. Thoughts? Therapyisgood (talk) 02:43, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Did it never occur to you to explain to the contributor what the problem was, rather than going straight to ANI? If this is the subject of the article, she may well be completely unfamiliar with the way Wikipedia works, and surely deserves better treatment than this. A little less hostility, and a bit more common sense would seem more appropriate... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:52, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump, you are absolutely correct, and I dropped the friendly COI notice on her talk page. The edits to the article don't seem problematic in and of themselves (as in, if they were made by anyone else, there wouldn't be an issue). Bgsu98 (talk) 02:56, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

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I am being harrased by User:AndyTheGrump

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the guy cant stand someone disagreeing with him so he resorts to verbal violence and abuse of power. 178.138.33.216 (talk) 15:05, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

See IP's post history. In particular this edit, which appears to constitute self-confessed idiocy. [78]. I suggest block per WP:CIR. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:07, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Either boomerang or warning would be relevant. The IP's lack of information here to make the judgement is somewhat a trend across their edits thus far, having taken a look, as well as the diff given by Andy above (and this edit) Nosebagbear (talk) 15:09, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

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User:157.211.12.205

A clear not here account that is being highly disruptive overt at Talk:Marjorie Taylor Greene with a barrage of PA's, clear trolling. Slatersteven (talk) 18:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC) Also an SPA. Slatersteven (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Blocked for 31 hours. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Sunderland Renaissance

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• China Global Television Network (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• CGTN (TV channel) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Sunderland Renaissance (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Antonian Sapphire (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (acknowledged secondary account of Sunderland Renaissance)

I cannot show publicly because WP:OUT but I have strong suspicions that this user is a contributor to China Global Television Network (CGTN). The user has been editing CGTN articles in a more positive manner for some time, trying to remove negative information about them. Pinging @Amigao since they have experience dealing with this user. The Account 2 (talk) 17:37, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I share your concern. If the non-public evidence is what I think it is its pretty darn ironclad. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I should also note that if this account really belongs to that person, they (through their blog) have attempted to dox a fellow Wikipedia user (won't name names here), which is a very serious violation of WP:PRIVACY The Account 2 (talk) 18:29, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

If thats the case I think this needs to go to WP:ANI. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

How should I do that? (haven't been editing for three years so forgot a lot of procedures :D) By this I mean what kind of report should I write. I fear I may make a mistake so... Thanks in advance! The Account 2 (talk) 18:33, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

@The Account 2: I have moved it. Sunderland Renaissance has a long history of bashing their wikipedia "opponents" (myself included) under their IRL identity in opinion pieces published by fringe tankie outlets. That they're going beyond that to doxxing is inexcusable, I extended them the benefit of the doubt again and again and I'm tired of the bullshit to coin a phrase. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

If there is off-wiki evidence of doxxing, it might be best to contact ArbCom regarding this. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:50, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I found the tweet. I can confirm The Account 2's assertion that doxxing has occurred, not going on the person's personal blog for obvious security reasons. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:22, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I would definitely send to ArbCom then to let them investigate further. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:34, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

How does one go about doing that? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:44, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Here. Black Kite (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

For the record, I categorically deny all of the associations above and the user who have posted this is a throwaway account (created 7th August) who is someone with an extensive history of pushing a long-term grudge/harassment against this respective person who I am accused of being. It is also ludicrous to assume this "person" is in the interests of defending CGTN when he was in fact famously dismissed by them nearly one year ago after publicly criticizing them for their perceived incompetence. Also, not all edits I have made to the article are positive, here are edits from this account adding critical content [79]- Sunderland Renaissance (talk) 00:44, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Am I missing something, or are you trying to WP:OUT them? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:57, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I also have behind the scenes evidence (which also I cannot post) which demonstrates that the original poster "The Account 1" is a throwaway single purpose account belonging to someone who has a long term grudge against the specific person he is targeting, including a long term and extensive history of harassment which involves the creation of scores of parody accounts (both on and off Wiki) as well as single-purpose harassment accounts. "The Account 1"- created his account on August 7th having seen a twitter post about a dispute related to a specific user that day (who also cannot be named) wherein accusations of Doxing are being lodged. The report has been made entirely in bad faith, and Horse Eyed Jack has also been looking for respective excuses (through political differences) to get me banned for a long time. I do not know who he is and I do not have an off wiki agenda against him to declare- Sunderland Renaissance (talk) 01:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Just to clarify, your position is that you cannot be this person, who was dismissed by CGTN (apparently being rehired some months later) because around the same time that he was dismissed you added critical content about CGTN to Wikipedia? MrOllie (talk) 01:15, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Just because the same high profile (Peng Shuai) was ongoing does not equate to such being an implication of guilt, but I am not aware this person was rehired. But either way, there is no COI and no doxxing on my behalf, and the original poster of this thread is doing this is absolute bad faith, which can be verified privately- Sunderland Renaissance (talk) 01:19, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Are you referring to the email you sent me? No I am not "Alek" (whoever that is). I edited "Juche" and North Korea articles because I have an interest in East Asia in general (and the ideology section of DPRK needed serious updates). I didn't "claim ignorance" but was genuinely confused on how to take this to WP:ANI and no, I did not start Wikipedia just to attack you (I did it because many of the China articles were pretty outdated and missed editing Wiki after 3 years). I have not ever collaborated with ASPI member Fergus Ryan. Are you preparing an "article" about "me" (or the person you think I am) on your blog? Also I happened to edit Wikipedia some time ago, since 2019 (but took a break for 3 years). The Account 2 (talk) 10:47, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

EDIT:here are the emails if anyone's wondering [80] The Account 2 (talk) 11:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Who said anything about writing an article about anyone? For a supposed random account you do seem to have a lot of background knowledge on something you otherwise claim to know nothing about. It is your choice to publish such emails but as they contain nothing inapropriate it only serves to consolidate this particular case that the original poster is acting in blatant bad faith and clearly trolling. I am otherwise happy to cooperate in private and provide any information necessary admins are seeking in their investigation regarding this. This will be my last post on the matter and will otherwise avoid topics of respective sensitivity in future in the bid to preventing any further accusations- Sunderland Renaissance (talk) 12:14, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

FYI I didn't claim to know nothing about anything. I have some knowledge about these things since I happen to follow China-related accounts on Twitter because I happen to be interested in China. The Account 2 (talk) 12:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

UPDATE:The article that included the doxxing was removed, but the article is archived on WebArchive The Account 2 (talk) 13:07, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Are you seriously threatening another outing? Those emails are highly inappropriate, also please note that repeatedly and aggressively emailing someone who has not responded back is generally perceived as harassment. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Also they seem to know A LOT about the person they're being accused of... and an additional note, their blogs Twitter account became private the same day he responded... very interesting... The Account 2 (talk) 16:41, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

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White Beard 1 edit warring and persistently adding a non-reliable source

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White Beard 1 (talk · contribs) is persistently POV-pushing and using using a Youtube Video as source at Moab Man. They have not replied to comments other than accusing editors of "silencing the truth." [81] I would suggest that this user is WP:NOTHERE. TornadoLGS (talk) 20:40, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

• Good grief. Indeffed as NOTHERE, though I may have to answer to a higher power, it seems. Black Kite (talk) 20:47, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
  • @Black Kite: Jimbo Wales? TornadoLGS (talk) 20:49, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

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Nazi external links

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I have just given Mschlosser90 a spam warning for their addition of a link to the "Thule Contemplative Society of Hitler" to our article Vril. On examination of the site it is clearly a Nazi organisation. The editor needs to be banned, and the external link added to the blacklist. Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Mschlosser90 (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

They have also been spamming a Nazi book publisher at Miguel Serrano. DuncanHill (talk) 21:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Its not spam. It's factual information. Mschlosser90 (talk) 21:06, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

• User blocked indefinitely.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:27, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

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Legal threat on userpage

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2A00:1370:8172:2AA3:49BB:C027:26F7:EE7F has posted a legal threat - acknowledged as such in their own text - on their user talk page. The /64 for this IP is already blocked, may need to pull TPA as well. PohranicniStraze (talk) 02:30, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Done, Special:Contributions/2A00:1370:8172:2AA3:0:0:0:0/64 blocked without talk page access. I also removed the rant. Johnuniq (talk) 03:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Makes a change from the accusations of extreme liberalism that we normally get accused of. Nthep (talk) 07:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

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User:None Business123

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None Business123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log): [83] legal threat, WP:NOTHERE Andre🚐 04:25, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Should probably be blocked for illiteracy too... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:27, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

172.243.89.92 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) as well, [84] Andre🚐 04:30, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Note that they also made an edit via this IP: 172.243.89.92. ––FormalDude talk 04:30, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• Blocked – Muboshgu (talk) 04:49, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[85]

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Disruptive Editing (User Blocking Request)

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• Dan_Wang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

the following user did many disruptive editings to National Resistance Front of Afghanistan's page without engaging with other editors such as removing the official website of NRF [86] with no sourced information just a WP:POV editing and instead the official website of NRF replacing a fraud fundraising scamming website that even not mention at any sources[87]. I did leave a warning on his talk page to stop vandalism and edit war but looks like he doesn't care about Wikipedia community guidelines and the kept reverting and removing or replacing the official website, and ignoring all reliable sources and three-revert rule, I request to block this user from editing to learn something about policies - — Preceding unsigned comment added by IranicaEditor (talk • contribs) 07:02, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

As a note to admins, the reporter is doing the exact same edits as a previously banned account ([88]), and even is making “I will block you” threats to the exact same user (Dan Wang). Generic CoI that learns a few terms in adminspace. Juxlos (talk) 07:23, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• without engaging with other editors - I see exactly one of you two on the article's talk page & asking the other (by edit summary) to discuss there, and it ain't you. (The only editor to express any disagreement there with the edits in question is the indef'd account Juxlos mentions in the comment above mine) So if there's anyone here failing to engage, it's you. You also failed to notify Dan Wang, as you're required to. Did it for you. AddWittyNameHere 07:30, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Juxlos is a proxy or supporter of this violated user Dan Wang[89] here I explained the whole subject of the official website with sources, but after ignoring all @Juxlos threated me to blocking, the user is his abusing power on me, instead of see the truth into the reliable sources and explaination. Is that WP:POV of powerful editors have priority rather than reliable sources? @AddWittyNameHere IranicaEditor (talk) 07:38, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  For what it’s worth, I had let the edit you wanted to put in pass, and then you acted sufficiently like a sockpuppet for me to become unconfident that you (or for that matter the organization you obviously are affiliated with) are doing it in good faith at all. Congratulations. Juxlos (talk) 07:41, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  moving topic to another discussing won't hide your power abusing, adding an official website to related article is what wrong?, in on your fact, adding https://www.nrfafg.org (fraud fundraising scamming website) is right and the official website NRF https://www.nationalresistance.org (no fundraising but a latest updates about NRF) is wrong, correct?

  so easily everyone can understand your main purposes IranicaEditor (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  As amusing as watching someone clearly without actual understanding of Wikipedia try to bureaucrat their way into COI, this is getting old. For the admins, I don’t think this user has a sufficient command of English (or good faith) to actually engage in talk page discussion beyond name-calling. Juxlos (talk) 08:01, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  Let the admins investigate on this matter, I have no further talks with you and with your sockpuppet users. The main subject is about abusing power, sockpuppet and violating guideline just for replacing the official website of NRF[90] into a fraud fundraising website[91] IranicaEditor (talk) 08:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• WP:BOOMERANG... IranicaEditor appears to be a sockpuppet, or a meatpuppet. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 09:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  maybe I appear as an amateur user but it won’t be sockpuppet, you check and see my all contributions, let’s come up to the point and see the truth — Preceding unsigned comment added by IranicaEditor (talk • contribs) 09:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I checked your contributions, and found this. Brunton (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

all I want to say on this issue is about the scam and legit website of NRF article, wikipedia should be a better place on internet for legitimate information, do you consider wrong information within an article of wikipedia? on that email I received [92] I will provide the copy if you required, the whole email explained about the legit website of NRF that all sources mentioned and confirmed. after I manually reviewed sources tuen I compromised to contribute the right or real website of the following article. so what is wrong if consider the real website of NRF on article? IranicaEditor (talk) 11:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• IranicaEditor indef blocked for a history of disruptive editing, meatpuppetry, possible IP socking, and NPOV issues. Generally, WP:NOTHERE. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:27, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

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SpacemanSpiff creates many conflicts between templates and transclusions

User:SpacemanSpiff edited many astrology sign articles, such as this edit, which eliminated the parameter varna from the inclusion. I don't understand what varna is, but I see that it has been in Infobox zodiac since 2012. I asked about this on SpacemanSpiff's talk page and he/she blew me off. He/she said he/she would stop editing Wikipedia but this turns out to be untrue. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:51, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Jc3s5h - User:SpacemanSpiff never said that they would stop editing Wikipedia. They said you reminded them why maybe they shouldn't be editing Wikipedia, but that was sarcasm, and, on the Internet, no one recognizes sarcasm. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• There has never been a parameter called varna in that template until five days ago. It was also added to the documentation here by the same now-blocked editor that SS was - quite correctly - reverting. IIRC, varna is fringey nonsense. Black Kite (talk) 19:21, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
• By "blew you off" you mean "responded completely appropriately to your officious demands"? JBL (talk) 19:47, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
• Just for context, the "varna" parameter was added by a now-blocked editor who was intent on making a connection between Varna (Hinduism) and Zodiac/birth charts, wanting to change the meaning on Wikipedia to the idea that people born certain times of the year fell into certain castes, which is not how that works, to put it mildly. The parameter doesn't belong in the infobox because it's a single editor's fringe idea. - Aoidh (talk) 19:53, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for that context, Aoidh. I know little about Hindu astrology but do know of the concept of varna in Hinduism, and was trying to work out what the connection was between it and the signs of the zodiac. You have expained very clearly that there is none, so SpacemanSpiff was correct in his actions. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• The 2012 diff doesn't show varna at all, not sure why you think it does. I frankly don't understand why you approached this the way you did. Mackensen (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think the 2012 diff was pulling in the current documentation, because it did display "varna" in the infobox earlier when the OP posted. I think the OP (like me) isn't too familiar with how certain technical aspects of how templates work. Schazjmd (talk) 22:40, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• First, the OP came running to my talk page in an accusatory tone without doing a basic check of the history and I did not take kindly to that (although I did point to them that they should check the history and also that they were wrong on the template history), that the OP isn't happy that I haven't quit yet isn't something I'll do anything about! If the OP had just asked what was going on instead of coming in with the accusatory tone, I'd have given some explanation on the lines that Aoidh has given above, albeit not as eloquently! —SpacemanSpiff 01:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Persistent genre warring

User:Stojo bruv has been genre warring on the page In Flames persistently and hasn't provided any sources. He won't use the talk page either for a consensus to be reached. It is time for a blocking to be in order. FireCrystal 06:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

It may go even further than that too. An ip range was just blocked for the same thing so could be one and the same. Possible IP socks. FireCrystal 08:21, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello, FireCrystal. I looked at that editor's contributions and noticed that they have been edit warring. Then, I looked at your contributions and see that you have been editor warring too. I could block the other editor but I would have to block you too. Stop the edit warring and use legitimate forms of Dispute resolution instead. Cullen328 (talk) 17:33, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Both editors have now received warnings about edit warring. Cullen328 (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Exclusive world records (and words to that effect)

There have been several attempts to create an article on a publication/platform called Exclusive World Record(s), using different variations of capitalisation and with singular and plural of 'record'. I'm aware of at least the following:

• Draft:Exclusive world record
• Exclusive world records
• Draft:Exclusive World Record
• Draft:Exclusive World Records

Would it be possible to protect (assuming it is felt this is warranted, of course) the whole name space so it catches all variants? I have a feeling we've not seen the end of this yet.

Also, I can't remember or see who the users were who created the already deleted copies; the latest ones were made by two (apparently) different users. Could be just a coincidence, of course, or could be ducky? (I've not taken this to SPI.) --DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:56, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

No, that's not possible. Unfortunately it's always hard to catch all spelling variants when a user is determined to get an article published. But of course it's disruptive to keep creating variants in such a way. Looking at the versions with my admin glasses on, I can see that three out of the four accounts have already been indeffed for advertising. I have blocked the fourth, User:Dhilloncharan, as a sock. There's no doubt in my mind that these accounts all represent one individual, likely an UPE. Thanks for reporting, DoubleGrazing. If you should see further variants, it may be expedient to take them straight to my page. Bishonen | tålk 08:27, 27 August 2022 (UTC).

Thanks @Bishonen! -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:38, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing If you can come up with a reasonable regex you could ask for it to be added to the spam section of MediaWiki:Titleblacklist, but that's probably overkill at this point. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 09:05, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

WP:AF? casualdejekyll 22:49, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

• Couldn't we make an edit filter to flag stuff like this? jp×g 10:18, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  @JPxG - WP:EF/R's the place to go for to request such a thing casualdejekyll 22:51, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and block evasion by various editors on children's TV series

Hi, I've noticed that various IP editors have been disruptively editing pages for various children's TV series by erroneously changing e.g. broadcast years, production companies, and broadcast regions. For example: Strawberry Shortcake (2003 TV series), Polly Pocket (TV series), Babar (TV series), The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!.

This has been going on for at least the last two months; their edits have always been reverted, they have been warned against vandalism, and many times one of these IPs has been blocked, only for another such IP to make similar edits a few days later. Given the nature of these edits, it seems clear that this is just one individual repeatedly evading IP blocks.

I'm not too well-versed with Wikipedia policies, but aside from whack-a-mole-blocking each such IP as it crops up, is there any other action that may be taken here?

P.S. The notice on the ANI edit page tells me that I need to notify the editor(s) on their talk pages, but I don't know how many IPs are involved here, so for now I'm only notifying the four IP editors who have made the edits I'm linking to. Edderiofer (talk) 11:00, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

• This is quite a wide range (2601:602:8705::/48) but looking at their contribs, pretty much every edit made this year from that range is clearly that person. Therefore, I have blocked the range for 3 months. Black Kite (talk) 11:15, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  Oh, well that's a relief that the collateral damage from blocking the entire range is so small. Thanks! Edderiofer (talk) 11:41, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  They appear to be back again on a different IP. See here. Maybe at this point we could consider semi-protecting a bunch of pages? (I unfortunately don't have a full list of which pages they're targeting, although perhaps you have a better idea of that if you can see all the edits that the 2601:602:8705::/48 range has made.) Edderiofer (talk) 11:29, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Persistent addition of unsourced content to children's films and cartoons

Continuing after final warning a few days ago, CoreyRobbo (talk · contribs) adds their own alternate titles and episode summaries that appear to have been copied from other wikis [93]; [94]; [95]; [96]; [97]; [98]; [99]; [100]; [101]; [102]; [103]; [104]; [105]; [106]; [107]; [108]; [109]; [110]; [111].

I've actually attempted to be selective in adding diffs here. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:71F0 (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Just out of interest, did you ever ask them why, or did you immediately raise ANI? A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 15:41, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I reverted them several times two days ago, and left multiple warnings. I Googled and found no support for the alternate titles, but did find episode summaries that appeared to have been lifted from other wikis. When I saw the pattern of WP:OR titles continued yesterday, I went to AIV. There was no action taken there, so I opened this thread. You're welcome to ask them why--I was struck by the edit summaries stating they 'had to' add this or that bit of unsourced content. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:71F0 (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

See also 58.178.64.76 (talk · contribs), presumably CoreyRobbo when signed out. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:71F0 (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

New editor taking ownership

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Pnngnn (talk · contribs · count)

New user is reverting multiple times, not communicating, blanking warnings without replies. Needs to calm down and open discussions and not just be a bull in a glass shop. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:40, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I made a very simple, uncontroversial edit. I stated what I did in the edit summary. This user FlightTime accused me of making a test edit (it was perfectly obviously no such thing), then accused me of not having a consensus for this simple uncontroversial edit, then simply reverted without explanation. If they had any actual reason to object to my edit, doubtless they would have said what it was. Pnngnn (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

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User Ïvana in a very suspicious attitude

Ïvana (talk · contribs · count) is removing content from the Alberto Fernández article that I just posted. If I were wrong, I would accept it, but this is very SUSPECT, given the fact that she is Argentine and may have political or even economic affinity with the Fernandez regime. I'm putting sources that came out all over the international media and she's taking it down on the grounds of not complying with BLP, but it smells like censorship. If you want, feel free to adjust my text, but erasing it completely is trying to remove the information, which is very relevant in this guy's biography. 2804:14D:5C87:8C5D:F8C8:349D:F216:1C7E (talk) 17:42, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

You found this page, how about finding the talk page to the article and discussing there? You might have a point, but a bunch of edits and then straight to ANI is not collaborative. As we have WP:NODEADLINE, we can take time to discuss and get it right. Slywriter (talk) 18:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

That is highly contentious material added to a biography of a living person that needs consensus to be restored. The matter should be discussed at Talk:Alberto Fernández. In one of your edit summaries, you wrote Please ban this Argentine who works for Fernandez?. Never single out an editor for their nationality and accusing an editor of being paid without solid evidence is a personal attack which is not permitted. Cullen328 (talk) 19:24, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

After exactly four edits, all of them to the Fernandez article, we have considerably more reason that your editing pattern is suspect and that you have an agenda than we do for Ivana, who has been here four years and has 8,000 edits. Nor are accusations -- devoid of any evidence beyond that she doesn't like your edits -- such as "Please ban this Argentine who works for Fernandez?" remotely helpful. Ravenswing 19:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Are we to denounce any American because she "may have political or even economic affinity with the Biden regime" or any Brazilian because she "may have political or even economic affinity with the Bolsanaro regime"? Who is not very SUSPECT? Just drop the conspiracy theories and discuss what should be in the article on its talk page. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:37, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

• I edited a compromise and opened Talk:Alberto Fernández#Luciani comments. User:Ïvana sent me a thank you for the edits. 2804:14D:5C87:8C5D:F8C8:349D:F216:1C7E's edits were mixing fact and opinion. The opposition parties slammed the comment, but Wikipedia can't take one side. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
• I see the edit-warring continues. Please use the talk-page discussion rather than do so. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:12, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Mass Infobox disruption

80s Sam (talk · contribs · count) Second time here I see.

User is changing Infobox formats on musical articles willy-nilly. No discussions, no consensus, just wants to I guess. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:35, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Repeated accusations of POV and COI without evidence

Zefr accuses me regularly of Conflict of Interest as my opinion regarding a specific subject (Polyphenol) does not meet his approval. @Zefr is now threatening to report me to Administrators if I do not adhere to his requests - and I believe such a behaviour is not appropriate. Disagreements about content should be resolved in a discussion without accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

The edit I refer to is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Health_effects_of_phenols_and_polyphenols

"There is a disclosure process at WP:DISCLOSE which you have not followed on your talk page under the COI section, and minor information, albeit with your admission of being "terribly biased" from your own research program on polyphenols, is on your user page. Specifically from the COI guide, "you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." You attempted to create an article about the Department of Food and Nutritional Sciences, University of Reading, which publishes a bioactives guideline, indicating professional association you may have with this department and university where you are employed and compensated - this violates the COI policy. If you don't clear this up, I will report you to admin. Wikipedia has hundreds of related articles you could be working on other than those related to polyphenols or bioactives where your "terribly biased" views would not raise questions about biased editing for unproven health effects - which you admit, rather than neutral editing, as I have emphasized. Zefr (talk) 20:44, 27 August 2022 (UTC)"Ggux (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

This has been raised at the appropriate noticeboard without resolution:

[[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 189#Ggux conflicted about polyphenol research]] Ggux (talk) 21:16, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

• By your own admission in that previous discussion, you have a POV and a COI, so I'm thinkin that is enough evidence to make the claim. You even spoke as to needing help determining what is encyclopedic and what isn't. To top it off, on your own user page, you describe yourself as "Terribly biased.". I appreciate that honesty, but it is what it is. On articles where you have a conflict of interest, you would be better off using the talk page if there is contention about the edits, and building a consensus, rather than editing directly. Most of us have COIs of one kind or another. Mine is in UV lamps and how they are used on animals (including humans) and horticulture. I've been in the field 30 years with a few inventions and innovations to my name. Last time I did a major rewrite on an article, there was someone there along side me, to keep me honest, SlimVirgin (who has since died, sadly). In the end, the article didn't look like I was hoping but it was factual and sourced, and I was wise enough to defer to outside opinions on what should belong and what shouldn't. The same would hold true for you. You aren't likely to convince everyone of every point you want to make. What is important to YOU, might not be what is the most important to the reader, as least as that is determined by a consensus of editors here. And we ARE a consensus community.

• So yes, you are POV and COI. That doesn't mean you can't contribute, but it does mean you need to change how you contribute in areas where that POV and COI exist. This is true for all of us. You are not an exception. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:50, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you - I appreciate that I am biased, because everyone is. A good expert is not one who isn't biased, but one who realises the own bias. The discussions with @Zefr have been going on for some time: they included RfCs which went against their opinion but were ignored Talk:Catechin#RfC:Is historical overview appropriate? or which did no result in a decision Talk:Flavan-3-ol#Request for Comments (2). As far as I can see, the main disagreement is whether there are data to support any health effect of polyphenols and @Zefr by own admission was not aware of recent research (Talk:Polyphenol#In vivo biomarkers) - the claim "There is no reliable source used in the article for that measurement, which would be a significant breakthrough for assessing the fate of digested polyphenols." has been wrong for some time, probably at least a decade. Interpreting results through that lens, i.e. the state of science several years ago and a summary provided by one organisation, the Linus Pauling Institute, resulted in most of the disagreements.

  I have no problem to have a scientific discussion on topics and adjust them based on consensus - this is how I understand the process works. But I don't think that accusations of COI or POV are very helpful. @Zefr has not engaged on the talk page with discussions about the content and largely ignored scientific arguments. One might disagree with the concept of bioactives, but this is an ongoing discussion for which I have provided references. And I believe threatening to report me to the administrator, as @Zefr has done, is one step too far. Ggux (talk) 06:19, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

IamNasirZaman - CIR?

IamNasirZaman (talk · contribs) seems to be a poor fit for the English-language Wikipedia, generally abusing the autoconfirmed right to post utter junk and plagiarised content into mainspace, as well as responding to any attempts to quarantine or push back against this with essentially a copy-pasted responce crossposted to a few venues and non-argument arguments (such as the all time classic hit "They're famous so they deserve an article"). Their talk page is populated by warnings and notices from other editors, but has never been touched by Iam themselves and they do not reply to rebuttals to their posts otherwise. I suspect they're a mercenary, but even then that does not justify the complete lack of engagement with the community, with the talk page and noticeboard posts they make being more a case of talking at someone rather than to them. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 21:44, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

(Diff of notification, as a precaution: [112]) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 21:59, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

"Iam"? I think their name is Nasir and they just missed a capital A. I might be wrong. casualdejekyll 22:34, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

As an addendum, they've just re-created the draftified Sikander Ghuman by (what looks to me) like copy-pasting the draft as it currently sits and changing the image. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 22:37, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

IamNasirZaman seems to not be here to constructively contribute to an encyclopedia. Despite multiple warnings they do not interact with others on their talk page or here. Instead they once again re-create a draftified article (this time Victory (punjabi song)).

It appears they are an undisclosed-paid editor, and potentially a sock given their strange question at Talk:Muqadas Farooq Awan#Wikipedia regarding deletion of articles created by socks. – NJD-DE (talk) 08:41, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

It's getting clearer with every move they make: they not only don't understand how Wikipedia works/what Wikipedia is, but also are completely unwilling to learn. Latest example is the removal of AfD-templates despite having received a warning specifically against that. – NJD-DE (talk) 11:51, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

They're now angry that a piece of information that was never in any live revision in a specific article was "removed". And they've attempted to remove AfD notices from same. Is it possible to block them from article space for now, so that they (1) can't create new unacceptable articles and (2) can't remove AfD notices? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 19:34, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Football

There are currently 193 articles at AfD just for the football del sorting. I can't keep up, and I am not on that much. I don't know how others can keep up, plus I like to try and do research. So please, is it possible that we can have some kind of cap limit? Govvy (talk) 23:09, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Speed is surely less important than thoroughness. @Sportsfan 1234: many (most?) of these nominations are yours, slowing down the rate of nominations doesn't seem like an unreasonable ask. I see this was raised with you a few days ago: User talk:Sportsfan 1234#Footballer AFDs. Mackensen (talk) 23:23, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

It has slowed down on my end. Maybe a cap of 3 per day/per editor until the load has come down significantly? Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I would just stop now until the current queue has come down to like 10-20. The participation in the current AfDs is poor. How much WP:BEFORE work are you doing before you nominate? Mackensen (talk) 23:40, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

This has been a problem for a while - not just with Sportsfan 1234, but also @Avilich:, who nominated 44 AFDs in 71 minutes the other day. I have no huge issue with the quality of the nominations (most are fine, but some are bad), it's the quantity I find an issue. 2-3 per day per user is sufficient. I appreciate Sportsfan 1234 agreeing to slow down voluntarily.

Oh, one user whose quality is bad - @HeinzMaster: - previously blocked for it. If editors won't voluntarily make fewer, better nominations, then editing restrictions will have to be introduced. GiantSnowman 08:56, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman and Giant: lol it was not because of the quality of the nominations that I was blocked, it was another issue that totally not related to that but is in the past. My nominations have been like 1% of the recent ones and of the ones I nominated 99% were voted delete, including many by you? HeinzMaster (talk) 14:05, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I think a limit of 5 per day is reasonable, with the caveat that if there are less than 30 listed, you can nominate more. I also think after 120 have been listed, there should be no more noms until the current ones are wrapped up. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 14:59, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

• The trouble is that there's no cap on the number of undersourced BLPs that people can start, so if we cap the number at AfD, the number of undersourced BLPs in the encyclopaedia just keeps on ballooning.—S Marshall T/C 17:23, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

  The problem identified by GiantSnowman is with articles on topics that would have had presumed notability under the old WP:NFOOTY but do not now following the recent changes to guidelines, not with new articles. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

  Broadly, this isn't really an ANI issue. There's a general problem of attracting good input at AfD. AfD is absolutely critical to Wikipedia; it's the ultimate arbiter of quality, and (depending on viewpoint) also a potentially dangerous black hole swallowing information at the whims of a handful of deletionists. It's often overly busy, editors who know about the subject might not log on during the critical week, or may not have watch-lists set up, and it suffers from drive-by people merely endorsing the viewpoint above. And it can get nearly as scary as ANI. Many AfD debates come down to a very small number of opinions, rather too few to reach a safe decision. AfC takes the attitude that it's better to reach the right decision than hurry, and doesn't mind if it takes 4 months; AfD sets itself a target of a week, albeit with the possibility of extension if the reviewer thinks it would be useful. Obviously quality is going to suffer if you combine time-constraints with a sudden influx of a large number of nominations. I suspect it's been discussed a lot, but it's still unsolved. I don't know how more people can be encouraged to get involved, and to do the job properly? It requires a particular disposition and skill-set that not every editor has. Elemimele (talk) 19:29, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

  All this is why Arbcom has decided we're going to have two community-wide RfCs on these very issues. Those RfCs would be the best place to propose a cap on AfD use.—S Marshall T/C 20:36, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Skuma81

• Skuma81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Prof. A.C. Kuma (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A.C. Kuma

This editor is blatantly defying the results of the AFD by creating the same article as was draftified in article space, although User:Liz said to use AFC when the draft is ready for mainspace. It is not ready for mainspace, and the editor may be not here to contribute to the encyclopedia. The editor's only edits have been to promote a family member. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:41, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with your contention. This article is not about promoting a family member. Prof. A.C. Kuma is not a living person. He passed away twelve years ago. It is a biography of a renowned Ghanaian lawyer and law professor, who played a measurable role in Ghana's political and legal history. Please research all the references provided. Skuma81 (talk) 03:52, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Why did you create a bio page, that was recently deleted? GoodDay (talk) 03:55, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

The originator was told by the AFD closer to submit the draft to AFC when it was ready for article space, and was advised that the references should be made inline. Instead, the originator created the same article again in article space in blatant disregard of the close of the AFC. Sometimes when you are told to use AFC, it means that you should use AFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:01, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

By way of (hopefully) helpful comment as someone who reviews pages at AfC, the page as it currently is would not be approved. It needs inline citations to support the individual sections which makes it hard to even consider if they would pass WP:POLITICIAN or WP:PROF. Additionally it needs to be written in a more neutral WP:POV.

There are also a number of WP:MOS issues including use of honorifics through the article, not using sentence caps in headings, the page name and more. Then with the unacknowledged source of the cut and paste move from the version in draft space and lack of wikilinks this article is not ready for mainspace. Gusfriend (talk) 05:32, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

• I've indeffed the user as a promotion-only account.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:23, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Kg673

Kg673 (talk · contribs) - warned multiple times for adding unsourced content to BLPs, also blocked previously. Also received warnings for general competence in relation to updating dates when they update athlete stats. However, they continue to add unsourced content and fail to properly update dates (see this where they don't update the stats table date, and this where they update the date but not the time. I cannot get through to them and they will not change their disruptive behaviour. No edit summaries, no talk page posts. GiantSnowman 08:36, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

• Blocked for a month. Next time might be indefinite. Drmies (talk) 16:50, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Block evasion by WP:LTA at Covid, Monkeypox and multiple articles

Following the rangeblock by Drmies of 2603:7000:b140:3fde::/64 (talk · contribs), a new rash of disruption has been undertaken: [113], [114], [115], [116]--these are just a few of the IPs being used, but they give an idea of the range employed. I don't know whether a broader block is possible, or if several dozen articles would benefit from protection. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:71F0 (talk) 15:09, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

New IPv6 range blocked/ Acroterion (talk) 15:21, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Acroterion, thank you. Time permitting, I may go through the IP range's edit history and do some more reverting. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:71F0 (talk) 15:28, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Acroterion. Drmies (talk) 16:47, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Ki999 is WP:NOTHERE

Ki999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is WP:NOTHERE based on his continued POV-pushing at Talk:Andrew Tate#Andrew Tate has active, official accounts on Rumble and Gettr. He's alleged a "coordinated inorganic heavy censorship effort" (diff) on the part of other editors involved in the discussion and accused another editor of lying and "fraud", which he's threatened to report, (diff) after several warnings on the matter (diff, diff). Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 18:35, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I wish we could just use the Chris Chan standard here and get rid of the article for causing more trouble then it's worth. Is it really worth it to fight an onslaught of Tate supporters for coverage of what's otherwise a borderline-notable kickboxer? casualdejekyll 19:10, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I've been monitoring that talk page for a few weeks now, and everything's been fairly peaceful until this user came around. This is about a single editor, not about a disruptive "onslaught of Tate supporters". I also don't see how the article is "causing more trouble than it's worth". Seems kind of dismissive of its contributors, honestly. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 19:15, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, as someone who has been involved in dealing with the onslaught of his followers trying to change his page (Please note, this is not an unsubstantiated allegation, people claimed they were asking on his behalf, claimed to personally know he was upset by the page due to contact with him, etc) for over a month and a half now, this is about the most calm it's been. Throast and I have been trying to keep things updated and in check, and it's going pretty well for the most part. Throast is accurate when they say that this is a singular disruption on an otherwise stable page. FrederalBacon (talk) 22:06, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I am denying any allegations of "POV-pushing" since the only thing I am trying to get added into the article is a single sentence consisting of factual information. This information (the fact that Tate is using Rumble and Gettr) is encyclopedic, at least more than many other claims that are already in the article. I have actually seen another user lying and pointed it out. I have said that "I am considering reporting this". Now this fact is somehow supposedly a reason to ban me, while I am the one being reported. I have made a lot of points in that message. I demand that whoever considers coming to a conclusion about this issue, reads the whole thread first, not just cherry-picked parts written above. Throast, after reading my long message decided to not respond to it at all and instead to report me. My message contains a lot of unanswered points. For example, I have questioned if he has COI (see context to understand why). Meanwhile the following was done in the same thread against me: 1. Throast claimed that I "do not know what Wikipedia is". 2. I posted around 20 different links that have covered information that I want to added. Another user claimed without pointing out to any evidence that most of these links are "outright unreliable". They said about other 3 links that they "they mostly read like celebrity gossip" (whatever that means). Dismissed another source as "advertisement" (which it was not). Falsely claimed that one of the links I posted is "dead". I have addressed this by saying "Perhaps it was unintentional but I see it extremely likely that you intentionally lied to me and regard this as a fraud. I am considering reporting it. Are you making claim (which you haven't made yet) that express.co.uk is unreliable source, too? How about independent.co.uk? I am waiting for your answer." I have addressed many other points here as well. This was a completely civil discussion from my side, meanwhile Throast decided to simply report me instead of responding to my arguments. 3. Throast made the following series of claims: "Ultimately, those [refers to social media that banned him, as opposed to those that did not] are going to impact Tate the most. I'd argue that Gettr and Rumble are fringe platforms, which is probably why virtually no reliable sources cover them in this context. In short, nobody cares that he's still on there." I regard this as a mixture of opinions and false/baseless claims. Meanwhile they accuse me of "POV-pushing". I have only few, if any opinions in the whole text I wrote on talk page and most of them are for the purpose of countering some other claims which were also opinions. For full context, see Talk:Andrew Tate#Andrew Tate has active, official accounts on Rumble and Gettr. ki999 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ki999 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment While I agree with Throast's concern, I feel this is more of a new editor issue. The editor seems to be completely unaware that some sources are indeed not allowed on Wikipedia. I linked them to WP:RSP to hopefully provide some clarification on why some sources aren't allowed here. FrederalBacon (talk) 22:45, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Itsrahulkashyap and Copyright Issues

Itsrahulkashyap (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been copying text from other websites for the article Minjar Mela, copyright violations in article that has been replaced twice. Editor has been warned before about this First time and second time. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 22:00, 28 August 2022 (UTC)