Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. You are not autoconfirmed, meaning you cannot currently edit this page. Instead, use /Non-autoconfirmed posts. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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User attacking other editors; ongoing non-encyclopedic content

Please take a look at the behavior of User:Jack DeMattos. He is a professional writer who's been on WP since June 1, 2015. I've tried to make him feel welcome and given him lots of room to match his flowery, editorial, magazine style writing to WP encyclopedic style, but he's not making much progress. Now he's begun to arbitrarily delete from articles all images another user has uploaded added and leave personal attacks in his edit summaries, like this: "Removed obviously bogus photo supposed to be Charles E. Bassett. This is yet another unfortunate example submitted by a serial purveyor of photo photos of Wild West figures. This person is single handedly turning Wipipedia into 'Wackypedia." His comment is really ironic, because his contributions are pretty much in the same category. Instances of comments like this in his edit summaries include this one, another, one more, and another.

He's leaving his flowery footprints and non-sourced content all over the Old West articles. In the past week this has included Pat Garrett; Bill Tilghman; Bat Masterson; and Billy the Kid.

Oon Friday 4 December he made big changes to Bill Tilghman and removed hatnotes about the article quality that he had not fixed, but added to; over the weekend he was hitting Billy the Kid; the latter article is quite a mess now. His references can't be authenticated by anyone because he doesn't leave proper citations. In some instances his refs aren't refs, but footnotes full of ancillary info not pertinent to the article, like references numbered 1, 3-8, 21, 22, 24-28, 30, and 31 in Bill Tilghman. Everyplace he goes, another editor needs to follow behind and clean up his contributions, if only someone had the time. You can see all his contributions here.

Other editors have taken his behavior to the Admin noticeboard twice before (here and here), and he's promised to do better, but he really doesn't appear to be listening. The help he's been offered, his actions in return, and the warnings given, etc, are summarized in several posts on his Talk page. I don't feel like he's giving any heed to the praise, direction, encouragement OR warnings I've left on his talk page.

I'm running out of patience and his contributions are becoming more of detriment than a help. I think it may be time for a short block to get his attention. Your input is most warmly welcomed. — btphelps ^{(talk to me) (what I've done)} 22:49, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Good grief. Billy the Kid is nearly unreadable, and the Tilghman article is almost as bad. Thinking about reverting his changes completely. Not a big fan of MOS blocks, but if he's not getting the message, maybe it's time. This is damaging the encyclopedia. Katie^talk 01:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Jack DeMattos has deleted photos that I and others have contributed to wiki without even asking if there is provenance or substantial evidence. He seems to believe that he is the only one that can contribute to the pages about the people he writes about. Some of the comments he made regarding photos from an important Old West collection: "Deleted bogus photo. Once again this has been submitted by a person with a track record with offering phony photos to Wikipedia articles.this is not, nor ever will be, one of them." Being a published historian does not automatically make one experienced at identifying historical people. True West, Jack Demattos and several other top published writers recently made a fool of themselves [at least that is what the majority believes] when they gave their negative opinions on the latest possible Billy the Kid photograph before the program about it aired on National Geographic. The show revealed fantastic evidence that gave the photo a very high percentage of being Billy and his friends. Since then, the owners and the filmmaker have established provenance for the photo and will be airing their findings soon in another program. The producer/owner of the film company has shown excited interest in the photos from this same collection that Jack has declared as bogus. Jack DeMattos should not be allowed to decide what is or isn't correct for the public's number one information resource. OSMOND PHILLIPS (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This is the third time this same issue has been brought here. This user does not seem to be getting it. They have gotten a lot of advice but don't seem to be taking it. That sort of text is more suited to a cheap western paperback story than an encyclopedia. HighInBC 06:25, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Which editor are you referring to, the OP or the subject of the complaint? BMK (talk) 07:49, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

He means the subject of the complaint. DeMattos has been here several times for the same issues. Anyway, I did some emergency copy edits to Bill Tilghman and added two sources. I guess it's a little better now, though one of the sources I added should probably be replaced by a better one, as it's a primary source written by Tilghman's widow. It'll do for now, though. I don't want to follow this guy around and perform copy edits on all the articles he edits, but it seems like there should be some way to retain his expertise. I don't know. If he won't change, I guess maybe something does need to be done. I'd prefer some kind of mentorship or something, but I hear those often end disastrously. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:43, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

DeMattos is still turning the Billy the Kid page into an expanded outline instead of an encyclopedia article, and he's obviously ignoring this discussion. Katie^talk 22:56, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

He replied to me about the ANI notice on his talk page. I asked him to bring his comments here. — btphelps ^{(talk to me) (what I've done)} 03:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Let's try one more time to get Jack DeMattos to comment here. He really, really should. Katie^talk 23:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, since Jack Demattos is back editing and still didn't respond here, I'm going to take a crack at getting some prose back into one of these articles. They read like lists without bullets and numbering. Let's see how he reacts. Katie^talk 20:33, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, he won't mind the cleanup, that's what I and others have been doing piece-meal for the past six months. I don't believe that will encourage Jack Demattos to try harder to adapt his writing to WP style. Part of the problem is that after I clean up an article he's edited, he returns to it and adds more content of the same style. I don't have time to endlessly police his writing. NinjaRobotPirate suggested a mentorship. That's effectively what I've been trying to do for the past six months, as you can see on Jack's talk page.

If Jack doesn't improve his writing, I fear he's going to leave his boot prints all over WP, and the effect will be long-lasting. There are precious few editors still active at the American Old West wikiproject. I would like to see some stronger enforcement of MOS. Pinging others who have posted on his talk page: WikiDan61, Dennis Brown, Intothatdarkness — btphelps ^{(talk to me) (what I've done)} 21:43, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that you'd been trying that. Everyone familiar with DeMattos knows he's received copious amounts of advice and help. It's frustrating to see that he's still writing stuff like "Tilghman was never shy about blowing his own horn. Not content to write his memoirs, Tilghman filmed them in a movie that he directed,and starred in playing himself." I don't understand why he's ignoring all the advice given to him. If this were a living person, it'd be a BLP violation. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

There's also voice-over prose such as "At the age of seventy, Bill Tilghman was called on to perform his last service as a peace officer. In 1924, the man who had ridden in posses with Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson and Heck Thomas, now drove into the oil-rich boom town of Cromwell, Oklahoma in a Model T Ford."[1] which would be quite amusing if this wasn't an encyclopedia. NebY (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I had a look at his most recent edits to Bat Masterson and my eyes glazed over at the state of the article. Unless Jack comes and explains himself, I'd say a temporary block would be necessary. Writing the way he does with expectation that others clean up after him is disruptive. Blackmane (talk) 03:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I seem to recall SBHarris has an old-west interest. Perhaps he can help rein in this lawless scalawag. EEng (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm surprised that DeMattos is still stirring up problems months after my initial report at this board. He seems unwilling to conform his writing to Wikipedia's guidelines. The problem isn't the veracity of his edits: he is meticulous in his referencing. The problems are that he insists that every factoid that he can verify be included in the article, no matter how trivial or irrelevant; and that he insists on writing in the florid style that the readers of his populist wild-west books and articles seem to like. It might work for the paperback history market, but it's not encyclopedic. And apparently no amount of cajoling on the part of many other editors will convince him to change his style, leaving the job of cleanup to others. And has been pointed out here, there are not many editors involved in the subject area that he has chosen, so his problematic edits may go unnoticed for quite some time. I support the idea of a block (even if only temporary) to protect the project from his ongoing disruption. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 05:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• After seeing the damage done to Billy the Kid, which had been nominated as a GA, and noting that this is an ongoing issue, that Jack DeMattos has not responded here, despite continuing to edit, and being asked to, and his response on his talkpage which indicates that he clearly doesn't get it, I feel he has to be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Someone who is willing to listen and learn, we can always help. Someone who is damaging articles, and refuses to listen, being adamant that he is right, is going to continue being a problem, destabilising articles, creating work for other editors, and wasting everyone's time when we discuss the matter over and over again. We either block him now, or we block him in three, six, twelve months time. Better we do it now, and save ourselves a lot of wasted effort. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I suggest an indefinite block with the option to make an initial appeal after a month. Making the default situation that he has to commit to accepting he is in the wrong before being allowed to edit again. If we use a temporary block with an automatic return to editing, we are simply kicking the problem down the road. From what has been said above, and looking through his history, people have been telling him he is doing more harm than good for some months, but he doesn't accept it. Let us be sure he gets it, before we allow him to edit again. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:20, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I would reluctantly support this. My changes stuck, perhaps because I didn't remove too much of his flowery, overly-detailed prose, but he called KrakatoaKatie's edits malicious vandalism on the talk page, then reverted Billy the Kid back to last version he edited. He further requested that Materialscientist block KrakatoaKatie as a vandal. He's obviously uninterested in collaboration, and I don't think he sees anything at all wrong with his behavior. In fact, he seems to see himself as an innocent victim of malicious trolls and vandals. I hope that we can get through to him eventually. Right now, he's blocked for 48 hours, but I think SilkTork is probably right that the drama will resume once his block ends. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I left a comment on his TP urging him to engage with the community here once the block ends. Despite the fact that his editing has been brought here twice before, this is his first block and it would be worth one more wave of the AGF flag before more drastic action is taken. Blackmane (talk) 02:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

(I have reposted Blackmane's original message, as someone removed it.) NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Following Jack's 48 hour block, he resumed his WP:OWN behavior on Billy the Kid (see here and here), with the result that Acroterion has now blocked him for a week. His edit summary on the second diff (claiming that the removal of his revisions to the article "borders on the criminal") is walking a fine line close to WP:NLT. Given that Jack has absolutely refused to engage in this discussion (or the two previous ANI discussions about him), it seems clear that he simply refuses to accept the fact that Wikipedia is not his own personal website where he gets to write whatever and however he pleases. I don't expect any better behavior after his one week block has expired. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I've posted another comment on his talk page urging him to engage. Hopefully, he'll at least consider it. Blackmane (talk) 23:41, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

User:STSC and WP:NOTHERE

STSC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is basically a pusher of the POV of the viewpoint of the government of the People's Republic of China. Almost every edit done by this user is misleading, with misleading edit summaries (such as using the edit summary "ce" while censoring negative information about the PRC government or other related topics, subtle changes to the text that affects the meanings, removal of sourced content, etc. As an example, what is this?) Really, almost every single edit by this user is problematic; search the archives for previous discussion about this user. This has been a long-term issue; editors have been frustrated with this user's refusal to discuss or cooperate, or even left because of this user. Often when other editors revert POV-pushing edits by STSC, STSC reports these users to WP:AN3. STSC has been warned frequently in the past, and has a history of blocks and topic bans. I think that an indef block may be appropriate in this situation. Pinging Citobun, Signedzzz, and Ohconfucius, who are more familiar with this editor than I am. sst✈^(discuss) 12:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• I strongly agree with the above assessment. I'm away from the computer and my phone is nearly out of battery so I’ll keep it short for now and elaborate with diffs tomorrow. STSC is a long-term, relatively low-key political agenda editor whose activity here (for years) nearly exclusively serves to parrot the viewpoint of the Chinese government. My interest on Wikipedia mainly centres around Hong Kong and this is the context in which I have encountered STSC but I know he is active in every modern controversial Chinese subject - Falun Gong, military history, etc. He censors and edits disruptively which he conceals using deceptive edit summaries like the innocuous “c/e”. If challenged or reverted he begins revert warring to enforce his edit and bullies other users by frivolously spamming their talk pages with warning templates. When asked to defend a particular edit his reasoning generally doesn't hold water but he will revert and revert until other editors are worn out. I try hard now to avoid interacting with him/her.

The only reason STSC hasn't been banned to date is that he is relatively low-key and does his work over a long period of time. But this type of agenda editing is most damaging to the encyclopedia as it is not blatant and hence not so easy to fight. Citobun (talk) 15:57, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I guess we've been very luck here up to now in not having to deal with the Wumao. Life will never be the same again as our vigilance will have to be elevated. As I'm burnt out from conflicts over FLG orthodoxy, I'll leave the Falun Gong articles up to others. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 19:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Here's a few other examples of misconduct - a very small sample, relative to his PROLIFIC agenda editing on Hong Kong-related articles, not to speak of all his other China-related editing.

• September 2015: misleading edit summary
• August 2015: misleading edit summary
• May 2015: misleading edit summary
• May 2015: STSC makes major changes to the Hong Kong article with the edit summary "ce". The edits censor the reason behind the 2014 Hong Kong protests (i.e. universal suffrage), delete information on police abuses, delete reference to the largely peaceful nature of the protest. I reverted these edits once and STSC places a warning template on my talk page to intimidate me. I give up.
• May 2015: Misleading edit summary - removes reference to Hong Kong as having a "high degree of autonomy", again deleting reference to Hong Kong's autonomy, egregiously misleading edit summary
• March 2015: rm reference to police abuses despite being referenced to Time magazine
• February 2015: misleading edit summary
• January 2015: misleading edit summary
• November 2014: Censorship of well-sourced and widely reported material about the credibility of a pro-government group's survey, reverts again with edit summary referring to WP:CRYSTALBALL (does not apply), places personal attack warning template on my talk page while I have never made any personal attacks, again, I beefed up the sources, more censorship, I open a lengthy talk page discussion, he blanks 3000 bytes of referenced material, I gave up.
• December 2014: misleading edit summary, incomplete edit summary - placing badge of People's Liberation Army in place of the Cenotaph, low-key agenda editing, misleading edit summary, rm photo of protesters, rm reference to large numbers of protesters citing the CBC, a reliable source; totally rm reference to protests in Central and Wan Chai that shut down highways and roads and were publicised in numerous reliable sources
• November 2014: censor photo of protests, ditto, more photo censorship, ridiculous photo censorship with no distinction between impartial coverage of the protests, and actual NPOV behavior, more attempted censorship of this particular banner
• October 2014: spamming articles with fringe theories about how the U.S. government supposedly instigated the 2014 Hong Kong pro-democracy protests (1, 2, 3), censorship - Beijing's nomination committee IS what the protests were about, misleading edit summary, censorship of information cited to reliable source, misleading edit summary/censorship, misleading edit summary, misleading edit summary, misleading edit summary, unexplained deletion of protest sites, he repeatedly changed "water cannons" to "water sprays", misleading edit summary, misleading edit summary/unexplained deletions
• September 2014: delete reference to Hong Kong as a former British colony
• September 2014: changing the Hong Kong infobox to show Putonghua (Mandarin) as the "national language" of Hong Kong, with Cantonese as a "regional language". For those unfamiliar with China/Hong Kong, Putonghua is the language promoted by the national government in Beijing. Cantonese is the language spoken by 95% of Hong Kong people
• September 2014: "fixing style/layout errors" - but in fact making major changes to the infobox, i.e. changing "Treaty of Nanking" to "British occupation"
• June 2014: misleading edit summary

I dunno, I could go on. I have spent an hour compiling this but I could go on all night. This is not at all a comprehensive view of his advocacy here, and I strongly request an admin take a serious look at his editing history. It speaks for itself. As you can see, when it comes to Hong Kong STSC's edits entirely centre around a number of themes: downplaying the reasons behind the 2014 pro-democracy protests; downplaying Hong Kong's heritage as a British colony; excessively promoting Chinese sovereignty over Hong Kong; downplaying Hong Kong's autonomy under one country, two systems; promoting the People's Liberation Army Hong Kong Garrison; promoting Japanese war atrocities in Hong Kong; bullying others by accusing them of personal attacks when they question his editing; bullying others through frivolous and improper use of talk page warning templates; making misleading edit summaries on a serial basis despite being warned for this repeatedly.

STSC is highly adept at working within the bounds of Wikipedia conventions, never pushing the envelope too far, but ultimately shows no respect for the concepts of impartiality and balance and is not here to build an encyclopedia. I am tired of seeing him undermine the impartiality of Hong Kong and China-related articles – his edit history speaks for itself. I am tired of him enforcing his political activism and political censorship through blunt force reverting and frivolous, bullying use of warning templates in mine and other's talk pages. It is really exhausting and I considered quitting Wikipedia back when he was censoring photos I had taken of the protests specifically for Wikipedia. Paging another potentially interested editor TheBlueCanoe. Citobun (talk) 12:38, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have much to add, other than to say that I agree with the assessments offered above. STSC is careful not to step too far out of bounds (i.e. constantly involved in edit wars, but no obvious 3RR violations), but the cumulative effect of the edits is clearly disruptive, and intended to advance some kind of quasi-nationalist agenda. I've also noted the user's tendency to try to provoke and needle his opponents, leave frivolous warning templates on others' pages, and use innocuous/misleading edit summaries to conceal clear POV edits([2][3][4][5][6]). Since one of the affected topic areas (Falun Gong) falls under discretionary sanctions, I've considered bringing this up in arbitration enforcement, but given the broader scope of problematic editing maybe this is the better forum to deal with it.TheBlueCanoe 18:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment - I've noticed that all commenters save the OP were notified of this complaint via ping, and I believe pinging like-minded editors in disputes could be construed as WP:CANVASSING. -Zanhe (talk) 03:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know the stance of the editors I pinged; I only pinged editors who I see were involved with STSC in the past. Zanhe, I am rather surprised that you don't find STSC's edits disruptive. sst✈^(discuss) 10:50, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I never said STSC's edits were or were not disruptive. I haven't had enough interaction with him to make a judgment (but I do recognize Ohconfucius and you as respectable, constructive editors). All I was trying to say is that it's better to present the evidence here and let uninvolved administrators judge its merit, instead of selectively notifying previously involved people. -Zanhe (talk) 20:05, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

No action, seriously? sst✈^(discuss) 14:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to see a statement from STSC. Also, pinging is not considered appropriate notification as pings can sometimes fail.

I was caught out once. A ping is only successful if you type in the username correctly and sign the post. If you go back and edit it to complete the ping, it won't work. However, I do see that you posted an ANI notification on their TP in any case. Blackmane (talk) 03:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

First of all, I don't know this user SSTflyer, I have never had any interaction with him. If there's any issue with me, he should have discussed with me in my Talk page. This is just a case of childish hate campaign to discredit another user on personal or political reasons, and it's a pack of lies, e.g. "STSC has a history of blocks and topic bans", etc. I have had opponents in content disputes when I tried to maintain a balanced view in articles, and it's not surprising some of them would want to join in this. There's nothing I need to defend the way I edit in my near 10 years on Wiki; that's why I just could not be bothered to reply to these ridiculous false accusations. STSC (talk) 04:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

This is typical. When faced with grievances over content, STSC throws around accusations of a "hate campaign" for "personal reasons" and otherwise avoids at all costs addressing valid concerns over his/her POV editing. I and others have attempted to reason with you on talk pages countless times and it goes nowhere – your enforce your POV and censorship in an uncompromising, bullying manner. Deleting photographs and well-sourced material from pages does not constitute "maintaining a balanced point of view" – it is politically-driven censorship. Citobun (talk) 05:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't lie, we had the 3rd opinion on the image deletion issue and the neutral user agreed to the deletion. On other issues you alone just could not accept other users who have different views from yours and you continue to hold grudges. STSC (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The outcome of that particular instance doesn't change the fact that you frequently censor images for political reasons. For example: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. Accusing others of not accepting different political views is really pot calling the kettle black. I'm not the one blanking and censoring sourced material for political reasons. Citobun (talk) 06:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Not at all censoring and there're good reasons for these edits. Why just brought them on here now if you disputed these edits? Up to now you still could not accept the 3rd opinion on the images in the Hong Kong articles, and it's rather sad you still harbour a long-term grudge against me based on the content disputes in 2014. STSC (talk) 06:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It is not a question of a "long-term grudge", but rather your own long-term WP:ADVOCACY. Citobun (talk) 07:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

You have jumped on every opportunity to use false accusations to discredit other editors. I've seen this all before. STSC (talk) 10:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The nice thing about Wikipedia is that our respective contributions are there for all to see and scrutinize. So call me a liar if you like but your editing history speaks for itself. Citobun (talk) 17:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The bad thing is you abusing the system to harass other user. Other content disputants like user Ohconfucius have moved on since the 2014 Hong Kong protests but you're still Wikihounding your opponent out of revenge. STSC (talk) 03:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I am not "Wikihounding"...stop throwing around false accusations. We have interacted perhaps one time since the protests a year ago. I contribute now because I was asked to. Citobun (talk) 06:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, you're the one who has been throwing false accusations around on here. STSC (talk) 03:12, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

{Non admin view} The problem, in my eyes, is STSC's edits do look to be more aligned towards the mainland Chinese POV, but on the flip side of it the editors that are raising the complaint have an obvious pro-HK POV. No one comes here with entirely clean hands in this dispute as it's a clash of ideologies. My heritage hails from both sides of the border that once separated China from HK but I was born and raised overseas. I nonetheless have held a strong interest in the politics of the region and in my view this dispute is a manifestation of those differences. For example, prior to STSC's pruning, the 2014 protests in HK article was heavily laden with images. Far more than I would have expected to see for what was essentially a singular event. Some of the other image removals, with the rationale that STSC used do seem reasonable, but as STSC has a pro-mainland POV their image removal makes it look politically motivated. I don't really see the need for action, at this time, against either party except a requirement that WP:DRN be used more frequently. Falun Gong is a very touchy article and is subject to Arbcom discretionary sanctions. Anything that is viewed as violating the sanctions should be referred to WP:AE. Blackmane (talk) 01:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I must thank user Blackmane for your fair comment on this. STSC (talk) 03:30, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not an HK/mainland issue. My analysis of STSC's editing is skewed toward Hong Kong because that subject is a focus of my own editing and hence the context in which I have encountered him. The problem is that STSC is exclusively a pro-CCP activist editor. Meanwhile I have created articles such as 2015 Hong Kong heavy metal in drinking water incidents which reflects very badly on Hong Kong. Certainly everyone has a POV but I don't think mine is necessarily "pro HK", and more importantly I am not here for Wikipedia:Advocacy or to censor others.

Nobody, STSC included, has really addressed the problematic issues above – misleading edit summaries, censorship of reliably referenced content, refusal to discuss, refusal to cooperate, bullying use of talk page warning templates, almost exclusively agenda editing – that together amount to disruptive editing. If anyone is inclined to characterise this dispute as merely a simple clash of ideologies I would suggest you compare our edit histories side by side and note the differences in editing behavior. Additionally please note that STSC is active in all other controversial China-related subjects, not just Hong Kong and Falun Gong. Citobun (talk) 06:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Your POV is not necessarily "pro-HK" but certainly pro-British colonialism. Editors are free to choose any topic to edit and that's none of your business. STSC (talk) 17:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I am interested in Hong Kong history. I am not pro-British colonialism. Citobun (talk) 02:24, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I should have said... You're very much 'pro-British colonialism in Hong Kong', of course. STSC (talk) 02:43, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

No administrative issue here; there's a difference of opinion on emphasis which is quite subtle to outsiders. For example, a link to the article 2014 Hong Kong electoral reform without mentioning it as being "about universal suffrage" does not "censor" anything, since the linked article talks about suffrage in detail. Such a change to a summary on a different article falls within the realm of a copyedit and is not misleading.

What I do think needs to change, though, is when STSC is complaining about a personal attack, he should reference where he is being personally attacked, by using a diff like this (which took 2 seconds to find, so there's probably tons more), where Citobun calls him a "agenda editor". Anyway, these diffs are stale. Stop stoking the fire of old bad feelings. Shrigley (talk) 07:03, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The diffs I've listed are stale. But the agenda editing has continued, hence why the issue was brought here. Anyway, I am tired of bickering about this and don't really want to contribute further – but this has been a very prolonged issue and if it is not properly addressed I think it will keep reemerging. Citobun (talk) 07:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Citobun has the cheek to complain about "agenda editing" while he would invite Falun Gong editors to join him. That shows his hypocrisy, and basically he and SSTflyer are just trying to silence other editors who don't share their POV. STSC (talk) 17:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Falun Gong nor do I know who you would consider a "Falun Gong editor". Citobun (talk) 02:24, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I must congratulate you on that. STSC (talk) 03:27, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

It seems that everyone here forgets the use of misleading edit summaries by STSC. No matter the POV, the edit summary "ce" should not be used when any meaning of the text has been changed. sst✈^(discuss) 15:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Action should be taken against user SSTflyer for abusing the ANI process to silence other editors who do not share his POV. His trick is to start an ANI with a pack of lies and then ping a selection of past content disputants to do his dirty work. Wikipedia community must not be tolerant with this kind of disgraceful hate campaign with political motive. STSC (talk) 02:42, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Attempt to subvert the AfD process

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Legacypac (talk · contribs) has been, in my opinion, gaming the system by subverting the AfD process by adding redirects to articles after his AfD's were unsuccessful.

I tried to discuss this on his talk page, but I did not feel his responses were adequate. I also asked if--in good faith--he would revert all the redirects he had added, and he will not.

It started when Legacypac attempted to bulk-delete the articles of a number of beauty pageant contestants here. The result, closed by User:DGG, was "keep all for the time being; renominate separately".

Following that, Legacypac followed a similar pattern to have several of the articles removed.

For example, he nominated Ashleigh Lollie for deletion here. The result was "no consensus". So, he instead redirected the article here.

He nominated Claira Hollingsworth for speedy deletion here. It was declined, so he instead added a redirect here.

At Courtney Byrd, Legacypac added a speedy delete here, and it was declined. He then nominated this article for deletion here, but then, according to his edit summary, "no nomination page created for more than two hours", so he removed his AfD, and instead added a redirect here.

This pattern continued for most of the other articles which were included in original bulk-delete AfD. Again, I have tried to discuss what appears to be a blatant attempt to subvert the AfD process, but Legacypac felt his actions were in compliance with policy. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 01:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no insight into the issue raised by Magnolia677 specifically, however, in a related matter - after Legacypac nominated Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition for deletion, and the AfD failed, he immediately executed a BOLD merge of the entire article to a different article, sans discussion [7]. As the topic was under Discretionary Sanctions few people wanted to unmerge it, appeals to Legacypac to unmerge it himself were rebuffed [8], an attempt to unmerge it by Mhhossein was immediately reverted by Legacypac [9], and an admin ultimately had to be brought in to execute the unmerge [10]. As the article was in the DYK queue at the time, this created a tremendous amount of hassle. LavaBaron (talk) 01:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

There is a strong argument that these college co-eds fail WP:BIO, WP:N, WP:15MOF and there is lots of precedent for deletion. There is a strong argument that the User:DGG close of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Madison_Guthrie covering 42 titles was against consensus. I count 16 editors seeking Delete or Redirect for all (or nearly all) the articles on the list vs 2 or maybe 3 who wanted to keep (generally without a policy based reason). Subsequently some of the 42 were sent individually to AfD as test cases. So far 6 were completely deleted Natasha_Martinez, Lizzy_Olsen, Brooke_Fletcher, Brittany_McGowan Elizabeth_Cardillo, Haley_Denise_Laundrie. Others like Ylianna Guerra have be turned into redirects to the appropriate contest page. We still have quite a few like Taylor Even which reads in its entirety "Taylor Even was crowned Miss Iowa USA 2015. She represented Iowa at Miss USA 2015 but Unplaced." that have not been sent to AfD or redirected. Obviously stuff like this is exactly what WP:NOPAGE addresses.

To bad the editor who started this thread as not addressed the issue of WP:NOPAGE, raised in the redirections and on my talk page, but I suppose they have no answer. Instead that editor reversed my redirects without a policy based rational, so I've sent the articles to AfD where I expect they will be deleted like their sister articles. Legacypac (talk) 02:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As for LavaBaron's completely off topic complaint about something that happened months ago, Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition is an awful misleading POV title covering a hard to understand segment of a larger topic Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War. Thanks for the reminder to work on cleaning up that mess. Legacypac (talk) 03:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

(1) I closed the first AfD because the nomination was against the meaning of WP:Deletion policy. Had I not done so, any close at all would probably have been overturned at Deletion Review, with the instruction to list separately. I advised renominating individually a few at a time; Instead, the individual nominations were nonetheless placed all together in one batch at a single time. I commented at that time "renominating in very large groups the way these are being done is not a good idea, because it defeats the purpose of letting people have time to look for individual sources."

(2)I commented at the separate nominations that "personally, though, I think sufficient sources are likely to be found only when there is a substantial subsequent career" . I personally do not like these articles., which I thing generally contrary to the spirit of an encycopedia. I think we should have a guideline not to have them. But we don't, and the way to decide is therefore to decide individual cases by AfD. As LegacyPak correctly notes, there were various results from these discussions.

(3)A non-consensus close could reasonably be followed by a discussion about redirection or merging. Doing it without consensus is trying to substitute a different close. We can have a different close--but it requires some sort of discussion, either DRV or another AfD or a discussion on merging or redirecting. Doing so without discussion in a case like this seems to be effectually replacing the community opinion by one's own. (that I happen to share that opinion is irrelevant here.). I think the appropriate way to deal with that would be to revert,the redirection, and then discuss it. This does not require coming here, or any admin action. DGG ( talk ) 04:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

TThanks DGG. It turns out we do have a policy WP:NOPAGE that was never considered before and avoids the question of notability. It's being used successfully to redirect super old people articles now. If someone disagrees with redirect they (as the OP has done) revert and discuss how NOPAGE does not apply. Coming here is not the answer. Legacypac (talk) 05:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As the editor who originally introduced the NOPAGE concept to the cleanup of the longevity walled garden, let me say this. I considered that, in principle, merges based on NOPAGE can be done boldly. But where there's a reasonable chance of controversy, such a merge should only follow a talk-page discussion. (And in the case of longevity, I felt, with the concurrence of others, that the additional transparency of AfD would be even better -- healthier for the community -- given the high emotions associated for so long with that topic.) Either way, a bold merge soon after an AfD that ended Keep is like a "bold" merge soon after a merge discussion that ended No merge -- it's not bold, it contrary to recent consensus. A new discussion -- wherever -- is needed. EEng (talk) 05:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You expressed your opinion that it was an "awful POV misleading title" in the AfD you made and the community decided that was not the case. Your singular opinion does not override the community consensus, particularly for an article under Discretionary Sanctions. And immediately slapping a third and fourth Merge proposal on that article in response to this observation in ANI, as you have just done, along with the intervention "thanks for the reminder," comes across as a little bit of a middle-finger in response to this observation. LavaBaron (talk) 08:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: If an AfD is closed as keep (or even no consensus), it must not be redirected or merged. Either of those actions would be in violation of the close. If those actions have been done, the actions should be immediately reverted now. And Legacypac needs to agree he understands he cannot do that in the future. The only cause post-AfD to redirect an article is if the close was redirect. The only cause post-AfD to merge an article is if the close was merge. Alternatively, after a failed AfD the article in question can undergo the specific detailed process (all of the very precise steps) of WP:MERGEPROP. If Legacypac does not understand and agree to these policies, he needs to undergo a topic ban on creating AfDs (and possibly also on redirecting or merging). Softlavender (talk) 05:45, 9 December 2015 (UTC); edited 05:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Softlavender: I don't think that that's entirely true. Just because there is a decision to keep the content of an article doesn't mean that the content has to be kept in that article. Also, if something is closed as no consensus, that usually doesn't preclude further discussion about the article's merits. pbp 13:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct. And if a discussion took place after the No Consensus result at AFD, and the consensus there was to redirect or merge? No one would blink. The concern here, I think, is that Legacypac didn't start such a discussion, but relied on BOLD in a situation where it was inappropriate. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 16:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Purplebackpack89, to repeat, for an article to be merged after a keep or no consensus AfD close, one would have to follow all of the very precise steps at WP:MERGEPROP. There couldn't be merely a very informal quick ad-hoc discussion and agreement to merge; any such informally discussed (or undiscussed) merge would have to be immediately reverted as violating the AfD close. Softlavender (talk) 00:27, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Comment: I just want to say Legacypac is a valuable contributor at AfD and has done a tremendous job cleaning up the Neverending Neelix Nightmare® – He's probably spent 100 hours on this in the last month going through all the ridiculous redirects and walled garden articles. I cannot rain enough barnstars on his wall. I hope this is taken into account and a topic ban is not pursued. I'm sure he just needs more clarity on what to do with no-consensus outcomes since there seems to be some gray area per DGG. —Мандичка^YO 😜 06:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Redirecting a title citing NOPAGE that has never been to AfD is fine (I've done that a few times). Since this complaint started on my talk page I've been sending similar articles to AfD instead and I fully expect an ANi thread complaining that I'm clogging up AfDs with articles that should have been BOLDly redirected citing NOPAGE. Now, if anyone has an issue with a SPECIFIC page I've redirected, please reverse the redirect so I can AfD it next. That already happened on the two listed above that were part of a group AfD. The third article mentioned was just a technical decline Prod, which should not shelter the article from being turned into a redirect months later. Legacypac (talk) 07:12, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Dealing with material where there is a possibly unreasonable concentration of interest is difficult--WP is very susceptible to people doing this, and I doubt we will ever find a good balance between disposing of problems quickly & definitively and doing so with full fair consideration of each possibility/ When I deal with such analogous groups of material, I usually do not get everything right--it can be very hard to predict what consensus is going to be. Legacypac is doing at least as well as I do in similar situations. All that can be asked of someone is that they reconsider what they are doing if it is questioned, and I try to be objective enough to do so, and I think he is also. DGG ( talk ) 07:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Legacypac: I'm not weighing in on the substance of this thread at this time. However, flagging for future reference that the term "co-eds" referring to female college students is outmoded and may be perceived as demeaning and therefore should not be used. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Just a quick look at all of these articles is concerning to me. There is excessive personal detail including educational information, dates of birth, parents names etc. These are not well known people, and even if the information can be found, we shouldn't be further disseminating it as per WP:NPF. Without a lot of this filler information the articles would be very bare indeed (which to me indicates the lack of notability). All of these articles need reviewing, both for notability and content. Polequant (talk) 16:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac's behavior of late is indeed questionable. He started this MFD[11] where two of his reasons were blatantly wrong. One- that there was no member in the WikiProject when in the same nomination he acknowledged a member. Second- That there were no edits to the page since its last nomination (Less than a year ago also by Legacypac. I'll let others judge whether this second nomination by the same editor was proper or not.) when there obviously was. Lastly he BLP Prod WP:Lexy Schenk when her article did have reference from a WP:RS in it. As seen here[12]...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Subverting AfD by using AfD

• I heartily endorse a topic ban for Legacypac (talk · contribs) on all beauty pageant-related material, he clearly either does not understand the subject matter, or has an open hostility and bias on this issue; either way he is not able to contribute effectively in this area, and is creating a lot of unnecessary work for others. Please see here for more on this, specifically, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ali Wallace, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rebecca Anderson, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allison Cook (Miss Oregon), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caroline McGowan, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nichole Mead. Ejgreen77 (talk) 11:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

LOL I added an appropriate subsection heading for Ejgreen77 who has NEVER voted against deleting or redirecting a pageant winner page, including voting keep on many pages that were deleted, which strongly suggests bias. I, on the other hand can tell the difference between a BIO about someone that has done something other then win one contest and a bio about a school teacher, future stay at home mom, or univ. student that got in a looks contest to win some scholarships. See Caroline McGowan for example where they just voted to keep an article that links http://dorkychickinlipstick.com/ and calls the subject an actress that has no acting credits to speak of. And to keep Allison Cook (Miss Oregon) "Cook entered her first pageant after learning they could help pay for her college education."Cook entered her first pageant after learning they could help pay for her college education.[2] She sought alternatives after concussion injuries forced her to leave the Oregon Tech basketball and volleyball teams. On April 28, 2012, Cook won the Miss City of Sunshine 2012 title and more than $6,500 in scholarship prizes" and she studies radiology. And to keep Ali Wallace which is a formula cut and paste of the others replacing name, school, major, parent, hair and eye color. Pretty girl who enjoyed 15 minutes of fame and went back to obscurity. Heck recently people were seriously trying to delete a bio I started Candy Carson and she has actually done some notable things and was portrayed next to Cuba Gooding, Jr. in a movie, plus married to Ben Carson. Legacypac (talk) 12:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

In all fairness there are a few editors who mass nominate beauty pageant/pageant winners for deletion. It's not just Legacypac. There needs to be a notability guideline established by experts in this area. Personally I feel anyone who wins the mainstream national title of any country, whether it's Miss USA, Miss Canada or Miss Armenia, should be notable. State winners aka Miss Oregon are not so clear and we need some kind of guideline. —Мандичка^YO 😜 12:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

BTW, check out this link that Legacypac included in his AfD nomination. Let me put it this way, If I were to include such a link in an AfD nomination, I would fully expect to get a topic ban, if not an out-and-out block. Ejgreen77 (talk) 13:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: The problem is that it's very difficult to establish any kind of notability guideline, simply because third-party media coverage of pageants varies wildly from country-to-country (with the US having, by far, the most). Miss South Carolina undoubtedly gets 100 times as much media coverage as Miss Swaziland does, yet there will be some that will say keep one and not the other, because one is a national pageant and one is a sub-national pageant. Other people will argue the other way, saying that one meets WP:GNG and the other doesn't. In general, I think that GNG probably needs to be the objective standard that everything on Wikipedia is held up to. Ejgreen77 (talk) 13:55, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with that link. John Oliver has a hugely popular show and there's nothing inappropriate in the video - there is valid criticism of pageants and their objectification of women's appearances. —Мандичка^YO 😜 15:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

But, it's the kind of editorial content that is totally inappropriate and off-topic in an AfD nomination. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't use AfD - get dragged to ANi. Use AfD get dragged to ANi. Can't beat the fans of a dying, widely criticized industry.

My criteria is if they win beyond winning a state title or go on to any sort of notable career the article can stay. If the only info beyond trival stuff is that they won a contest, redirect to the contest page. Legacypac (talk) 12:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: Heaven forbid, somebody who actually wants to get rid of poorly-sourced, non-notable articles. pbp 13:04, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
  • But he's nominating articles like Nichole Mead and Rebecca Anderson with dozens of reliable sources, ones that clearly cross the verifiability and notability thresholds, and ignoring WP:NTEMP in his rationales. - Dravecky (talk) 19:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• A topic ban on "beauty pageant-related material" would completely miss the point: the problem is not specifically to do with "beauty pageant-related material": it is to do with trying to undermine the outcomes of discussions and consultations whenever those outcomes are contrary to what Legacypac would like. Legacypac needs to realise that if he or she starts a deletion discussion, he or she must then accept the outcome of that discussion: it is not OK to say, in effect, "Let's have a discussion on whether this should be deleted, so that if the answer is 'yes' then I will accept that decision, and it will be deleted, while if the answer is 'no' then I can ignore that decision, and find another way of effectively deleting it."
• Legacypac, if you continue to do what you have been doing, you are likely to be blocked. I also suggest you may find it helpful to read WP:FORUMSHOP, which is not exactly about what you have been doing, but it is essentially the same. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 13:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - ridiculous. AfD is a group process and it can be worked out. Further clarification is needed in some gray areas. Legacypac is not being purposely disruptive and understands the compromise needed. IMO AfD is probably the least rewarding yet one of the most vital areas on Wikipedia, and the editors who nevertheless spend time there trying to weed out non-notable articles need support, not constant criticism. A topic ban for Legacypac would harm the project - and I say that as someone who recommended keep on the Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition article. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: "Legacypac is not being purposely disruptive and understands the compromise needed." I'm curious what exactly you see that lead you to state this. Personally, I see nothing to suggest this (in fact, very much the opposite). FYI, this is not Legacypac's first go-round at this, there was a similar mass-AfD dust-up in February 2015, so Legacypac knows perfectly well that at least 50% of these AfD's he's opened are going to close as "keep." Ejgreen77 (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

And, as far as his motivations go, please see his comment immediately above about a "dying, widely criticized industry." Ejgreen77 (talk) 14:38, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Which is why there is so little RS coverage today. As a child I remember most Queens getting local and regional press. Now they have do/say something extraordinary [13] to get even a name check. It is usually a big struggle to find sources outside official pageant sites (and that is kept up only for a year), local person wins award, Facebook and blogs. It is different if they get on a big TV show or something, then we treat them like any other actor. Legacypac (talk) 15:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe that's true in Canada, but in the US, state-level pageants are a big deal, and get plenty of RS coverage in third-party news sources here. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:24, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Then a Google search like this for the state closest to me right now [14] should find more then 253 results (all news results for all time for both the annual event and all girls that ever went to the "Miss Washington USA" pageant, not just winners). It is barely noise level. Legacypac (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Most of these state winners, IMHO, don't meet GNG. I've fought to keep articles on pageants and national pageant winners from around the world (which is why I know Legacypac is not the only who noms them for AfD). But I really don't think most state winners make the cut. Just being Miss New Hampshire is not really enough IMO unless there is significant coverage in some other area. Nominating state winners is good cleanup IMHO. And again, there needs to be a guideline. Pageants are competitions after all and equivalent sport guidelines exist on notability, so why not make one for pageants? —Мандичка^YO 😜 14:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: Please see my comment immediately above. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:05, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support and Expand On review of the individual cases, and not just the method of editing but the tone used by Legacypac in interacting with other editors who come to him expressing concern or question, there seems to be a dangerous sense of ownership and unwillingness to work in a collaborative spirit. Really, had I chosen to make it an issue at the time, he could have been blocked under discretionary sanctions for the stunt he pulled above vis a vis the Syria article; I only didn't because I try to avoid the mess that is those topics and only came across it via DYK. LavaBaron (talk) 13:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

After I proposed AfD [15] (which closed with advise to discuss merge at talk and good support for a merge in the AfD) I propose merge to talk on Oct 28. Only LavaBaron responded Oppose with no clear policy reason. I completed a merge on Nov 1 (based on insufficient opposition at talk and recent support in AfD, but was reverted. Then on Nov 5 another editor proposed Delete at AfD [16] but that closed no consensus with people suggesting merge again. Now I started a more formal merge discussion and you take offense? That is not forum shopping its following process. Legacypac (talk) 14:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban but suggest the editor avoid making personal comments about others - such comments are uniformly disregarded by closers at AfD, and tend to make some feel that the poster is more invested in deleting stuff he/she does not like than in finding out what the consensus of the general community evinced on the AfD page is. Collect (talk) 14:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - No topic ban. He does need to watch how he interacts with others and remember to discuss content, not users. If he demonstrates incivility or personal attacks, he can definitely be blocked on those grounds. However, he is following the proper process and using AFD for what it's designed to discuss. The lack of understanding of a subject matter is a learning opportunity, and certainly not a reason in itself to propose a ban. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Oshwah: But, over the past year he has sent literally dozens of pageant-related bio articles to AfD, and only a small handful of them have either ended up as "delete" or "merge/redirect" closes, with the vast majority of them closing as either "keep" or "no consensus." And yet, he continues to send more. At what point is the process simply being abused? Ejgreen77 (talk) 18:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Ejgreen77 - I completely acknowledge your response; I agree that the AFD process can be prone to abuse by anyone who wants to push an agenda or disrupt the process with excessive nominations of articles (especially if the articles clearly do not meet the criterion for nominating it for deletion). I'm trying to find some edits, any edits, that demonstrate that this person has an unambiguous viewpoint or agenda against this topic subject. So far, I'm not finding any. I want to assume good faith here - I think that the user should be warned about his nominations of articles, and that continued nomination of articles that clearly should not be deleted can result in blocking, as doing so is disruptive. After blocks have proven ineffective, I'd be much more open to a conversation about banning. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

My reason for bringing this to ANI was not because this editor was nominating these articles for deletion. It was because--after being unsuccessful at getting these articles deleted through AfD--he then added a redirect. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

i recall there is a way to check the % of deletes on nominations and %of time that an editor's vote meets consensus. I think I saw it in RFA. It would be bad to have a 100% delete on noms - that would suggest you are only sending snow deletes to AfD/RfD and not using the appropriate alternitives. I work hard at cleanup and I've sent literally Thousands of articles and redirects into successful deletion or redirection. I'm sure that stats will bear that out. I went through all the Oregon pagent template and only nomed the ones with no claim to fame outside one event, You can see even in the last 36 hours I made changes, maintenance tagged, proposed merges etc to many pageant articles I did not AfD. On the flip side I bet Ejgreen77 has Never voted to delete or redirect Any pageant article, and I've seen them comment on plenty. Therefore the editor pushing for a topic ban on me should be Boomeranged for they are the one with the demonstratable bias. This editor should serious show a single past delete vote in this topic or face a topic ban themselves for making false statements against me here.

Given that I have a long-standing personal policy against voting "delete" in any AfD debates, pageant related or otherwise, it's not terribly surprising. Not that I haven't seen plenty of articles that I thought should have been deleted, but in those cases, I simply abstain from voting. But, if you're looking for examples, I already gave one further down the page of a pageant article that I think is questionable. And, right off the top of my head, here's a pageant-related article that's right up your alley. It was sent to AfD and somehow closed as "keep," I thought it probably should have been deleted. Ejgreen77 (talk) 05:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah! I think you're referring to a tool that calculates the number of Support votes vs Oppose votes in RFA - I remember that tool as well :-). I think that tool only works for RFA votes. However, you can find the number of votes by the user vs each closing decision by using the AFD Stats tool. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose the XFD classic damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't problem. If a bunch of similar items have similar problems and you nominate just one, the community yells about why are you targeting that one; you nominate them all and the community demands each be nominated and judged individually. So here, an editor does the latter and the discussion basically invites individual nominations, which the editor does, and now someone wants to ban the editor. Really??? Moreover, we have editors who seem to want a litmus test as suggested above on how close ones RFA !votes match consensus, as if whether an editor's view matching consensus in one place has bearing on the value of that editor's view anywhere. That sort of marginalization is particularly distasteful given the current political discourse in the US and ought to be rejected. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment @Oshwah: and any other users who think that Legacypac is acting in good faith here, check out some of the whoppers that were told (multiple times!) in this nomination. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your response and your input, but I am standing behind my vote and the reasoning behind it. I think a ban goes too far in this case. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:00, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. To my regret, I have occasionally dipped a toe into the AFDs re: these archaic swimsuit contests, once I attempted to assess claims of notability for Miss Dairy Association - or something of the sort; I even once chased down a notability quesiton for contestants in a language of which I have only passable reading knowledge. I am persuaded of several truths, among them is the fact that there is less notability than appears to most pageant titles; that the notability outside the USA is even less; and that the devotees of these pageants are devoted to them and to putting pages up and keeping pages up for every pageant and every winner. It may not be quite as bad as WP:PLAGUE, but the tone at AFD can be remarkably similar. I now avoid pageant AFDs like the plague, and think we owe a vote of thanks to Legacypac for attempting to bring some standards to this difficult arena.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: After reviewing this situation, I have come up with what I feel are the only solutions that have a chance to work:
• 1. Do not allow Legacypac (talk · contribs) to move articles or redirect articles
• 2. Give him some rope and see if he continues the behavior
• 3. Block him

Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 18:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. It appears Legacypac may have acted against consensus at times, but this does not look like it warrants a topic ban or block. I sympathise with Carlossuarez46's viewpoints on this topic.
• A topic ban is unwarranted, but I support Happy_Attack_Dog's suggestion that Legacypac should be banned from redirecting any article that has been through AfD and not explicitly closed as redirect or merge. This is a tactic that is anti-community and corrossive to collegial discussion. It is easy enough for Legacypac to start a redirect discussion on any desired article and then, if succesful, leave it to someone else to actually carry it out. SpinningSpark 16:25, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Are pageant winners notable?

Moved content discussion to here. No comment on previous sections. --MASEM (t) 02:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Thinking of what other annual contests exist, I searched the biggest Rodeo in Canada List_of_Calgary_Stampede_Rodeo_Champions. There is just one article on one winner - a two sentence stub J.B. Mauney. No dozens of articles on each event with succession boxes and who their parents are, what they studied, where they went to school blah blah blah. I can't think of any contests, outside politics) that we give SO much coverage too, and we avoid most of the trivia in the politician articles. The trivia goes into the pageant articles because, without it, you have nothing that does not fit on a list. If we applied the same standards to pageant winners as we apply to other topic areas, this debate would not even be happening. Legacypac (talk) 16:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• 1.) WP:OTHERSTUFF 2.) Lack of editor interest in one particular area should not preclude other editors from developing articles in a completely unrelated field. 3.) At the end of the day, it's all about WP:GNG; if you think that individual rodeo cowboys have sufficient third-party coverage to warrant articles, by all means, go ahead and create them. Ejgreen77 (talk) 17:16, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Largely not, no. In most cases there is no coverage of them outside the context of the pageant. Pageantcruft is a plague on Wikipedia and has been for a long time. Guy (Help!) 17:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• All pageant winners? No, of course not, but the state-level winners for the two major national pageants (Miss America and Miss USA)? Based on the extensive ongoing coverage by reliable sources, clearly yes. (Other contests that receive as much or more attention on Wikipedia include reality television competitions, sports at all levels, literary prizes, academic prizes, literary prizes, the Oscars, the Emmys, the Tonys, and so on.) - Dravecky (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Like the 111 Google News hits for "Miss Oregon USA" or the 58 hits in books (covering all winners over the years and the contest itself and not all RS of course)? Is that "extensive ongoing coverage by reliable sources"? All that coverage barely justifies the Miss Oregon USA article. Legacypac (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Not to try to trivialize this too much, but from what I've seen of pageant winners, WP:BLP1E readily applies, in that the only event they are connected to is winning the pageant, meaning that most winners are not notable (although we can certainly use lists and tables to document then) Obviously, if they have done more before and/or after that is of note, then normal notability rules apply (as such with Caitlin Upton. And this is not to suggest that anyone winning an aware is not notable per BLP1E, but it is due to the nature of what pageants are: the participants are not being ranked on past merit but the there-and-now, as opposed to other awards like Nobels, Oscars, etc. where it is based on past merit that usually can be documented to a great degree, so BLP1E would not apply. --MASEM (t) 21:07, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. the majority of them have no actual claim to notability and are never heard of again. Guy (Help!) 22:20, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:NTEMP covers the fact that once notability is achieved, it does not need to be sustained. And, as far as the whole BLP1E thing goes, please see this excellent comment, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Ironically, one of the articles currently sitting at AfD, Rachel Berry (Miss Oregon) concerns a contestant who won a state-level title, then was forced to resign it less than three weeks later. On that particular article I do believe there are legitimate BLP1E concerns, due to the extremely short nature of her time as a titleholder. Thus there are no news stories of her making public appearances as Miss Oregon, no "preparing for Miss America" articles, and no subsequent appearance at the national pageant. So, on that particular article there are some legitimate BLP1E concerns, IMHO. But, your average state titleholder who won her state title, made numerous public appearances throughout the year, and represented her state on the nationally televised national pageant? No, no BLP1E concerns, there. Ejgreen77 (talk) 05:11, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The question is begged if notability was met to begin with in terms of NTEMP. And BLP1E still applies to a pageant winner that would have media appearances after the fact but otherwise nothing notable. Classic example: JetBlue flight attendant incident is not about the person involved as that is basically how BLP1E is applied. Similarly for pageants, it is rarely the winner but the event itself as a whole. --MASEM (t) 05:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think ANI is the best place to debate notability. But as I said before, national winners are notable IMO as they receive significant coverage for the year and go on to compete in Miss World or whatever. Significant coverage is significant coverage - there is no requirement that anyone actually accomplish anything. —Мандичка^YO 😜 10:48, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

"Significant coverage is significant coverage - there is no requirement that anyone actually accomplish anything." I agree completely, but like I said earlier, most of these US state-level winners will get 100 times as much third-party media coverage as, say, most of the people who competed in Miss Earth 2015. Heck, in some of these cases (Miss Congo (RDC), Miss Moldova, Miss Swaziland, Miss Kyrgyzstan, etc.) I'm not really all that certain that the national pageant itself is particularly notable - never mind the individual winners. Ejgreen77 (talk) 12:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You'd actually be surprised - in some of these smaller countries, a larger percentage of the population knows about "Miss (Country)." It's a lot bigger deal for anyone to be competing and representing their country abroad, and they get a lot of attention not only when they win their pageant but when they go to Miss Universe and other pageants. I on the other hand have no idea who Miss America is this year, but that's because American culture is overloaded with celebrities who are world famous. Angola naturally is different. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Of course BLP1E applies. And as I commented above, the level of personal detail on these pages is grossly excessive. (And in the one AfD I commented on, the highest profile source doesn't even mention the person in question, and went on about the person's educational history and other trivia that is completely unencyclopedic. And the article was written by an admin. They should really know better.) Polequant (talk) 12:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

And here we have that same admin reinserting dates of birth, parents occupations etc. Seriously? Polequant (talk) 12:29, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Can we please move this conversation to Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)? —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:45, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Started at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#Pageant_winners_and_notability. --MASEM (t) 21:29, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks Masem! Can you close out this discussion? —Мандичка^YO 😜 02:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Long-term edit warring and personal attacks by User:Spshu

Spshu has engaged in edit wars several times over a few years, and has been blocked five times for the same offense, just on different pages:

• First block on October 18, 2013 - on Justice League 3000 - warning here
• Second block on January 24, 2014 - on Iron Man: Rise of Technovore - edit warring noticeboard discussion here
• Third block on January 6, 2015 - on One Magnificent Morning - noticeboard discussion here
• Fourth block on September 1, 2015 - discussion here
• Fifth (and current at the time of this writing) block on December 11, 2015 - on Laff (TV network) - discussion here

Not too long after the current block took effect, Spshu left an unblock request on his talk page that seems little more than a thinly-veiled personal attack directed at me. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. He has also shown retaliatory, even uncivil, behavior in the links presented above and on his talk page - some good examples are as follows:

• Removing warning against vandalism on your talk page, NeutralHomer; really rich when you have no clue. That is what Rollosmokes did when originally confronted with warnings against his vandalism of multiple pages while he entreated that the discussion should go to the TV Station project talk page. (Perhaps, you should read above what he had to say about that. And effectively YOU now.) Now the both of you refuse to acknowledge the discussion there that PTEN is a network. Spshu 15:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• No it does not. As per your article, Thomas did not open Kewpee's in 1923 and did not own that location until 1944 and was not Haloburger until 1967. All in your article. Each change is noted my version. Your are making a mountain out of a mole hill. In this case, Haloburger didn't come full formed as per your article; it was more evoluationary. I don't understand why in the world you don't understand your own article!!!! Spshu (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• At this point you are being disruptive and are causing the edit war to get your way. See Wikipedia:Overlink crisis as why not to have too much lapping navboxes (look for the "Morocco had gained 12 separate navboxes". Animated films are covered in another navbox and were link (as is Marvel Animation directly) to in the Marvel Films see also section in my edit. The animate film link takes them to Marvel Animation Section: Animated Marvel Features which has a list of the animated films and the article has the Marvel animated production navbox. Additional there will most likely more Marvel live action films and animated films. If you set such an overlap standard then "overlink crisis" will return. Thus my use of redunate as a reason to remove them. --Spshu (talk) 14:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
• I end up having to beating the dead horse because fail to understand that this issue has been decided repeatly against your position and your continuing to edit war over the issue. Spshu (talk) 22:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
• ←Where is your evidence that it still exists, King Shadeed? Your own "proof" is to latch on to two marketing executive titles and ignore the presents of two chairs for NBC Entertainment and NBC Broadcasting and that the page is for NBC ENTERTAINMENT not NBCU TV Group. Neither person's job description in their bio indicates that they jointly run NBCU TV Group but that they report directly to NBCU's CEO.Spshu (talk) 13:29, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
• Going about trying to eliminate articles you don't like, by turning them into redirect, and edit then to make it worse edit warring to try to get what you want, is rather wrong of you. You also tag articles that have references proving they are notable, with notability tags. Dream Focus 22:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• First, you are not assuming good faith nor have you read any of the discussion linked above nor can you prove that I don't like them. Prehaps, I like WP more and don't go around making WP what I want, but follow the guidelines. Also, it takes two to edit war. To a degree, it was a discussion taking place with the edit summaries. If you if looked at the edit summaries would show that the other party had no reason. Second, having references doesn't make them notable. The sources need be of significate coverage not routine coverage. I could launch an attack that you start articles that aren't notable, but I have not, instead I tag it as unnotable giving you a chance to make it notable or move it into a notable and related article. This is what I did with the Imprint article, create an article to hold this info until notable sources guidline is met. Would you preferred that I took your new article directly to deletion? Spshu (talk) 22:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• It is you who is edit warring as you have not waited for any other opinion. You were reversed for not doing so. You acknowledge that company do declare "new" companies that already exist. So once again, you are trying to blame me for your actions. Yup, you can have it your way. Spshu (talk) 13:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
• So you demand that people address you with your full legal name, first middle and last name, every time they address you? But, you want to be addressed as Stereorock here, which is not your legal name. Why are you using that? WP:COMMONNAME is the key here. So, some how you are telling me you can not tell that the call signs refer to TV stations in a TV station article? Spshu (talk) 18:14, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
• You think that AfD has any thing to do with hate Disney? Really? Did you dig up all the Disney article that I revamp from being nearly unsourced? Nope, because the AfD was all that you could come up with. What is in the TV Guide can preempted, so no that doesn't mean that they air nor any adding any references. Spshu (talk) 21:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
• Because you posted MY WARNING to you. That would look stupid for me to leave a notice from me to myself. You can see that you are just a name caller (a two year old activity) since I have left every 3RR notice that has been post to my talk page, EVEN ones that editors have posted falsely. You did not join the discussion open since 21:31, 15 March 2015, you ignored the edit summary directing you to the MOS, you ignored the link to Other Stuff before going over 3RR. Leaving the 3RR notice when you have done none of what the notice requires of you. So it even greater hypocrisy that you call me a vandal or a hypocrite. You are disruptive for disruption's sake. Spshu (talk) 19:41, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• You will cease leaving false warning on talk page. I will not be intimated by your miss use of warnings. Spshu (talk) 20:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I then took up, with KrakatoaKatie, why she didn't indef him if he had been edit warring for a long time, and she told me to bring it here, so I did. We cannot have such a toxic editor on Wikipedia.

Thus, I am proposing a block/ban on Spshu for long-term edit warring and incivility, based on all the above evidence. If any of you support such a block/ban, or oppose it, please reply. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 19:37, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I would like some community input about this block. Electricburst1996 urged me to indef Spshu and I declined. His behavior on his talk page, however, has me reconsidering. Katie^talk 20:26, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I won't give input on the bock itself but, as far as this conversation goes, Electricburst1996 starting a conversation about someone during a time when he or she knows Spshu is unable to take part in that conversation, is just plain childish. My recommendation would be to table/shelve this whole talk until he is able to come defend himself. I'm surprised the admins involved here (Liz, Katie), never stopped to consider that.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

If you read what Liz said just below this, you will find that she did in fact stop to consider it. LjL

You mean where she responded by saying she wouldn't respond and then continued to respond after saying she wouldn't? Ya, I read that. Not much of a consideration.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

As a general rule, I don't like giving an indefinite block to an editor while they are on a temporary block and can't respond to this complaint. It's due to expire soon so I will look for his response to these statements.

Electricburst1996, please provide some diffs/links in your complaint so we don't have to search for the comments Spshu made. It's usually important to see the context of the remarks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: Links provided. Click on the comments for the source of them. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 21:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I was looking at what seems to at least be the latest incidents between these two users, that on Laff (TV network). The page history shows that they had both been edit warring, but that it started with Spshu removing unsourced material, and Electricburst1996 reinstating it based on the fact that "no one" (else!) had expressed any concern. The edit war later continued, with further reinstatement of content on the ground that "other TV articles are as unsourced". Spshu correctly brought up WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. In any case, i was always my understanding of policy that challenged unsourced material should not be reinstated without a source once it is removed. So, even though perhaps one use and not the other technically went over WP:3RR during this incident, I do not see Spshu acting any more inappropriately than Electricburst1996 at all; quite the contrary. LjL (talk) 21:35, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@LjL: Thanks for bringing up the other side of the issue, but this is not about the most recent incident; rather, it's about a string of similar incidents over a long period of time. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 22:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Electricburst1996: Per policy, anyone can bring up anything in an ANI thread and you are not allowed to say that the thread is only about something else. I would like to know your response to what LjL has brought up. Why did you put the unsourced material back and why did you then edit war regarding it? Please explain.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, it removed an entire section. I was trying to find a firsthand source that supported the entire section, but I had no luck. I guess it was my own hubris... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 23:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Ya... I'm gonna go remove the unsourced section (the entire unsourced section) and, if you ever find a source, you can put it back at that time.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:11, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, good! I see you found one... and from October! So it would have been there when you were edit warring saying you were looking for one when clearly you really weren't or you would have found it at that time. This whole thing just keeps getting more and more phoney.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

In regards to this getting "more and more phoney..." Good God, Electricburst1996! Like... WOW!!!!!Cebr1979 (talk) 01:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

In looking at it, this entire thing was handled incorrectly by not only Electricburst1996 but, also by Katie. Electricburst never should have reverted in the first place (he or she had no right to... ever). User:Spshu attempted a talk page discussion which Electricburst then deleted. Katie then blocked the guy before he ever had a chance to defend himself over at the 3RR board, even though everything I just said was right there waiting for her to see... y'know... if she'd taken the time to look, which she clearly didn't. I'm not saying "two wrongs make a right" (and Spshu was definitely in the wrong with the edit warring) but, at least he tried to do things properly (and was right to delete the unsourced info in the first place). Electricburst has done nothing but cause problems since this issue started (and is still doing it by starting a conversation here about an editor he or she knows can't defend themselves in)! Katie, I recommend you re-think this block you were too quick to instate. It's not making me trust your qualifications/ability to be an administrator.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:04, 14 December 2015 (UTC) :Spshu will be able to step in sometime tomorrow. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 00:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's kind of the point, the discussion was timed so that he would not be able to defend himself, that he will be unblocked at a later time is a very weak cop out. This report is nothing more than the latest in a plethora of examples that your behavior has been unacceptable, and looks like WP:GAMING, pure and simple. I can't see any reason why you should not be blocked for disruptive behavior and edit-warring per the evidence that you yourself have provided. - Aoidh (talk) 00:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Wow..., indeed, @Electricburst1996: you must certainly have a very good explanation for deleting the discussion that was started on the article's talk page without even an edit summary?! Because that sort of thing is outright unacceptable. At this point I don't really care about the rather long and confusing list of not-clearly-abusive diffs that you posted, but your behavior during this latest incident with Spshu raises very deep concerns. LjL (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I deleted it because I interpreted it as a personal attack against me, rather than an attempt to discuss the content of the page. And as for the list of diffs, I was trying to demonstrate any warnings and discussions levied against the user in question. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 00:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Electricburst1996: Hmm, please help me understand this better... Exactly what part(s) of this post by Spshu did you consider a "personal attack against [yourself]"?Cebr1979 (talk) 01:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It was copied verbatim from a warning he left me on my talk page, and the message is specifically directed at me. It's more about that than anything else. Nowhere in that message does it indicate that the user wants to improve the page in any way, shape or form, and all in all, the article talk page is just the wrong forum for the kind of message he left. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No. It's the right forum, as it's an article-related issue and complaint, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS was a very legitimate concern with your edit that restored unsourced material. In any case, you removed the message from both the article talk page and your own user talk page (at least, this latter you are allowed to do). This is not a tenable defense. LjL (talk) 14:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Ya! And then Katie chose to block Spshu (and is now considering an indef block for him as well) but, chose to do nothing with Electricburst1996?! I'm hoping Katie has "a very good explanation" for that!!!Cebr1979 (talk) 00:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know, what I can see from Spshu's talk page and follows-up to his unblock requests is that there is probably some language barrier. But the editor has been around for a decade, with the first several years seeing no blocks. From that to an indef... something must have happened, and I'm not altogether sure it's all the editor's fault. LjL (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, he has been blocked five times for the same offense so far... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 00:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Electricburst1996: You also have a history of being blocked in the past for edit warring.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

And that is all you have you say after being asked for a good explanation to your removal of talk page comments (thus hiding the fact that the other party had tried to discuss the matter)? At this point, I definitely think you should have a good WP:BOOMERANG coming towards you. LjL (talk) 00:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking the same.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:50, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

IMO, both editors should have been blocked for violating WP:3RR. clpo13_(talk) 00:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I agree now that an indef is inappropriate, and the original block has now expired. Spshu had been blocked twice before for 72 hours for edit warring and 3RR violations. What about an IBAN for Spshu and Electricburst1996? Would that help fix this behavioral problem or possibly make the situation worse? Katie^talk 00:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I think at this point Electricburst1996's behavior should be investigated in further detail before an action is decided (and, hey, I did my part), because there are signs of maliciousness, such as the mentioned deleting of article talk page comments. You engage in an edit war and you remove the comments that the other party makes on the article talk page to try to discuss the issue? That's as unacceptable as any behavior on Wikipedia can get, and not possibly done in good faith. Aoidh above also mentions the possible existence of other serious past issues with Electricburst1996 so maybe they want to provide some evidence of that. LjL (talk) 00:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, that borders on libel. Most of my edits have been in good faith and are relatively constructive. If you want to investigate, just do yourself a favor and go through my contributions history. All of my contribs from before 2014 are from when I was relatively new to the site, then I forgot about the account for a while. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No, it doesn't "border on libel" to state the obvious, i.e. that removing article talk page comments like that is utterly unacceptable and should be sanctioned. If you think I'm libeling you, make a report against me. LjL (talk) 01:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

What I meant was, the part suggesting there are serious past issues with me borders on libel. I should have clarified that. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah. Well, that's not something I've claimed, though, it just seems like Aoidh's claim above. I don't presently know whether it's true or not, but given the current circumstances, their claim should be investigated. LjL (talk) 01:50, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

There really isn'y any such thing as "libel" here at the ANI board, Electricburst1996. This is the second time now (1) that I'm showing you the policies regarding this page. I suggest you read that thoroughly (and quickly).Cebr1979 (talk) 01:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

If Spshu's block has expired, then he's done his time and his debt is repaid, as far as I'm concerned. Any further action would just be continuing the childishness of it all. If (Hopefully: When) Electricburst1996 gets a boomerang out of all this, that can be dealt with at that time. In the name of fairness, however, Spshu should be issued an apology by you, Katie. You were wrong to block him without giving him a chance to defend himself first (he should have at least been able to say something) and, above all else, you should have looked into the matter before acting.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I think an IBAN would help greatly. But how do IBANs work on a technical level? ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Basically, the two of you wouldn't be allowed to talk to or about each other. Have you two ever encountered each other prior to this incident, though? If not, an IBAN is premature and unwarranted.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:34, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, there is a flare-up at The Disney Afternoon over the Disney-Kellogg Alliance name, which I felt shouldn't be included. I think between that and this, there is sufficient grounds for an IBAN. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Those are not sufficient grounds for an IBAN, those are examples of two people with opposing views sharing similar interests. In my experience, Electricburst1996, when an editor is quick to jump on the IBAN bandwagon it's because they're thinking something along the lines of, "Yippee! That sounds great! Then if I get there first, he can't revert me no matter what!" which is not the purpose of an IBAN. Once Spshu does join this thread (and hopefully he does), there will most likely be a boomerang for you, which will be supported by many. My advice to you is throw in the towel now and back away.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

If he does join, the argument will probably heat up to the extent where I just can't do it anymore. Might as well give up while I still can... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I do believe that's best for you to attempt (I say "attempt" because it's probably already too late but, for you, I do believe that it's in your best interest to at least give backing away a try).Cebr1979 (talk) 02:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

BOOMERANG for User:Electricburst1996

I was prepared to let this go and let Spshu do it himself (if he ever decides to return after his bogus block) but, today Electricburst1996 has just picked up right where he or she left off yesterday (albeit, on a different page). I think the indef block Electricburst1996 tried to get for Spshu is warranted for Electricburst1996 (complete with the revoked talk page access he or she requested). Electricburst1996 just doesn't wanna seem to leave this guy alone!Cebr1979 (talk) 23:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• support as proposer and per everything stated above in this very conversation.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• I support the boomerang. According to my research, Electricburst1996 did the following in order:

1. edit warred [17] [18] [19] [20] over 3RR, at least as much as the user who got blocked, Spshu
2. removed the discussion that Spshu had tried to start about the issue from the article's talk page (as well as from his own talk page, which he is allowed to do, but which dismisses any argument about removing it from the former because it was "too personal")
3. asked an admin to change Spshu's block for edit warring into indefinite, and insisted about it on being requested to take it to ANI
4. also asked the admin to revoke Spshu's talk page access (potentially silencing him completely), while the ANI report had already been filed
5. meanwhile, claimed in this ANI report that Spshu could defend himself after his block was over, despite the two attempts to prevent that described above
6. confessed to the admin involved that he didn't "think everything through" at this report

I am having a lot of difficulty attributing good faith to this series of events. Given the editor claims to be autistic and some commentators below seem more familiar with those issues than me, I'm open to some kind of mentorship or "soft" boomerang, but I really do not think it should simply be brushed off. LjL (talk) 01:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, the reason I removed the discussion from the article's talk page was because I felt that it was too personal for that namespace. In no way, shape, or form did the editor bring up any problems with the page, nor did he bring up any solutions to those problems. All he did was post the exact same message he left on my talk page (which was where he posted it first) verbatim. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:16, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The original post is right here and it did do everything you're saying it didn't.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It brought up very valid concerns with your edits on that article, so it was appropriate to post on the article's talk page, and quite possibly on your own, but you deleted it from both. And then you brought him to ANI while he was blocked, to get him more blocked, even though there was recent glaring misbehavior from your side. LjL (talk) 03:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Not only that, LjL, but, even after you explained all of that to Electricburst1996 yesterday, he or she still went back to the Talk:Laff (TV network) page today and acted like your explanation had never happened. For me, that was the "seal of the deal" regarding this boomerang (and that's not even getting into this attempt to pass off the blame EB'96 made after that)... *Although, in fairness, I will state that EB'96 removing it from his or her own talk page is perfectly fine and Spshu should NOT have put it back.*Cebr1979 (talk) 03:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I guess I'll just do a WP:VANISH... I guess this incident outweighs all my constructive contributions up to this point... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I should come forward and say this now... I am holding myself 100% responsible for this whole ordeal. I shouldn't have done what I had done, and at the time, I simply had no idea any of this would happen. I learned the consequences of my actions the hard way. I'm sorry for dragging all of you into a bloated mess that developed from what could have been easily resolved in a matter of minutes had I not acted out the way I did, and I will also leave Spshu alone from here on in. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 04:25, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support - Maybe not an indefinite block, but the editor's actions do not contribute to a collaborative editing environment and is a net negative for Wikipedia. Their comment, "I guess this incident outweighs all my constructive contributions up to this point" sums up the need for the block perfectly. Any editor that feels they are permitted this type of behavior simply because they have made useful contributions previously is not one that needs to be an editor. While I don't see a need for an indefinite block, the need to reduce likely future problems from this editor suggests a block is needed here, given that the behavior continued after it was pointed out that the behavior was inappropriate. I'm not buying the whole "oh now that there's a block discussion about me I'm suddenly sorry I'll stop" comment they made above, given that they said something similar here and instead of ceasing, just continued elsewhere. - Aoidh (talk) 06:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Blaming the administrator that blocked Spshu for their actions only reinforce the need for a block, because they clearly don't get it. - Aoidh (talk) 12:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I made my apology based on what was left on my talk page here. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 17:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

That's not an apology, and an apology isn't the issue, it's the continuing disruption. - Aoidh (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I will say this, as someone familiar with autism and asperger's syndrome, this is classic behavior. It's the theatrics. It's as if they are in a play, and they can't let go of the character they have created for themselves. Obviously, they made a mistake, and they should have the appropriate response for said action. What would help more, though, is for a more experienced editor to take them under their wing, and explain with no ambiguity what is and is not allowed for given situations. Ambiguity is an autistic person's mortal enemy. Give them an inch, and they will hang themselves with it. Being as blunt and clear as possible is the most beneficial way to deal with someone on the spectrum. I only hope Electric can see that their behavior, and clinging to this martyr mentality will only further hurt him, not help. As I said on their talk page, accept that you screwed up, drop the sword, and learn from it. Anything else won't fly. --Tarage (talk) 07:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• • Where did autism and asperger's syndrome come from?Cebr1979 (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, but blaming this editor's behavior on autism is a disservice to the many other Wikipedia editors who are on the autism spectrum and somehow manage to not use it as an excuse. I also note that Electricburst has not himself attempted to hide behind these and perhaps @Tarage was trying to prevent them from being used as an excuse? Dkendr (talk) 05:19, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Tarage: Comment on content, not the contributor. We are not interested in what your "familiarity" with autism/Asperger's Syndrome has led you to conclude. Your comments are generalizations; regardless of what you supposedly "know" about autism/Asperger's, you don't know Electricburst1996 personally, and as such, I would highly recommend that you strike-thru your offensive comments. GJC 06:06, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The editor lists on their userpage that they are on the spectrum. If you don't want my explanations, don't take them. I will not strike through anything. --Tarage (talk) 06:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I can see my behavior now. That's why I apologized in the first place. But to see that someone here didn't view it as a sincere apology... that's a bit disheartening. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 17:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't a sincere apology. You only made it because of a deal between us (a deal you've since broken because you just. can't. stop!).Cebr1979 (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Sadly (or fortunately, think about thoughtcrime) it's hard to see people's motives in their minds. The thing is, from my point of view at least, that you seem to have machinated something against the other user by doing things like removing their comments to make it seem like they didn't try discussing, and attempting to get administrators to silence them so they couldn't denounce what was going on here. Now you're apologizing, but it's difficult to tell whether that's another step in your "thinking everything through" (your words) or a genuine apology. I understand it's disheartening. LjL (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Let me explain my motives for removing the other user's comments... I removed it from the article's talk page because I felt that it was too personally charged, and I removed the exact same message from my talk page because I felt it was too harshly worded. I tried to get KrakatoaKatie to silence him because of his unblock request, which I viewed not as a legitimate request, but a personal attack against me, despite some legitimate complaints - why don't you read his request and decide for yourself? ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 17:52, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I did read it, and I see it not as a personal attack but as analyzing your actions and trying to explain why they weren't appropriate - something quite understandable, as we're now here doing the same, as it's not often something that works in unblock requests (as it didn't). I have of course also read the things you removed from both talk pages, and they were a neutral request to cease inappropriate editing while citing the relevant policies; nothing wrong with that. If that's "too harshly worded" I'm afraid that's your issue, because it, quite plainly, isn't. LjL (talk) 17:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support Edit warring and silencing other people is the polar opposite of what we are doing here. There are people tasked with oversight who can delete, from the history, anything libelous or harmful. None of these comments fall under that umbrella. This user has posted an "apology", yet still does not understand that it isn't their duty to silence other people, even if it is "personally charged". I endorse a time out. Please also reference LjL's fine post above for more information--Adam in MO Talk 12:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support a short block; having read through this, Adamfinmo appears to have summarised what I was going to say. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 14:40, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I would recommend a block of about 72 hours- slightly longer than those usually given for edit warring- due to the deletioon of talk page comments, as outlined above. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 14:49, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about a block, it would seem just WP:PUNITIVE now that the situation has cooled down. But perhaps some kind of revert restriction would help prevent future games like this, and, ideally, mentoring (but I'm not stepping forward for that, so). LjL (talk) 14:16, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:Not Colosseum, this thread is way past its sell by date, and has been in driven in large part by an editor subsequently blocked for trolling. Would the next passing admin or senior editor be kind enough to wrap it a close tag? NE Ent 14:39, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

User Alec Smithson

I believe it's time to ask for review of my interactions with Alec Smithson, who has repeatedly accused me of vandalism, personal attacks, and stalking (diff diff diff diff diff diff, plenty more on request). If there's merit in his accusations, this stops here, read no further, I accept … well, whatever it is that I need to accept.

But if not: I started looking at some this editor's contributions after this note was left on my talk page (on the same day that Alec Smithson was indeffed on it.wp – his previous blocks on that wikipedia were for socking and copyright violation).

I found, as time went on:

• Lack of competence in the English language
• Frequent editing while logged out (e.g., as 95.237.141.108)
• Little understanding of WP:verifiability
• Repeated failure to provide attribution for translations made from other-language wikipedias – Fernando Carcupino, Lierna Castle, Battle of the Three Mountains. I listed Lierna Castle at WP:CP, but even that was not enough to persuade him to comply
• An apparently obsessive interest in a few narrow topics: The Polli family of Milan (Emilio Polli, Gino Polli, Polli Corporation; the Natoli family of Palermo (Giovanni Natoli, Antonino Natoli, Antonino Natoli (insurance man), Sperlinga, Principality of Sperlinga, Castle of Sperlinga); and the village of Lierna on Lake Como (Bianco di Lierna, Lierna (chair), Lierna Castle). Of course an obsessive interest is in itself no crime; but the promotional tone and dubious content in some of these pages is or was far from encyclopaedic
• Dubious content: (1) Bianco di Lierna, a wine that apparently does not exist; (2) Gino Polli, attribution of a medal introduced 42 years after the death of the subject, with no provision for posthumous award; (3) Giovanni Natoli, the supporters of the coat of arms were copied word-for-word from Diana, Princess of Wales (or from Template:Infobox COA wide/testcases), and are clearly unique to her (one from her husband's coat of arms, one from her father's).

In general, cleaning up and verifying his contributions has been a massive timesink for numerous editors; I'm not sure that the project has gained anything from his presence here. Stalk toy shows that the French, Italian, German, Latin, Dutch and Swedish Wikipedias have all decided they're better off without him. Is it time for us to follow suit? This may also be relevant. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

The apparent unwillingness to acknowledge copyright and attribution problems (which I see extends to other language Wikipedias) alone is enough to show this user is a problem. Given the amount of time and good faith spent attempting to assist this user with policies and contributing in grammatically correct English, I'm beginning to think that it's time to apply WP:CIR. clpo13_(talk) 20:37, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Just looking at his talk page, I'm not sure his language skills are up to par for the English Wikipedia. There was a lot of comments I could not make sense of. But he hasn't edited since you posted the ANI notice on his talk page and I'd like to hear his response to your complaint, to see if he acknowledges making mistakes. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers, it is true I have some grammatical improprieties at times, but the lyrics are then always in the correct time in the form. I always reported the facts of historical and documented with sources wherever possible. I have not deleted traces but correct situations once reported. I have always acted in good faith in the interest of history, truth and knowledge. Often I found myself in front of some people who knew nothing of the known facts, as they did not know who he was as a designer Castiglioni ... and yet not even write the reasons obliterated my speech without any real reason and without considering that this was done with sources.

A user Justlettersandnumbers in particular I was always attacked and attacked you can see that it's always him, disputing and deleting my integrations although sources without even write comments of the reasons he did so without ever opening a discussion and this for me is his vandalism subsidiaries. He took advantage of the situation to its greater ability to use the vehicle wikipedia and I admit my weakness grammar, trying to speculate on any fact to create prejudices against me of the whole community. This person specializes in goats and other skills, and of course in his objections. It never opened a discussion, and with speeches tautological always tried to make me look bad unfairly without depth. You can see that my actions sometimes weak in English grammar are always well written and very hard with good compositions and sources of structure.

NEVER EVER I REPEAT Justlettersand Numbers has opened discussions, I ask you to look at an example Lierna Castle opened against me a copyright violation but it was only a translation but not identical free, one-page wikipedia other language I tried to fix it in time completely changing but without success. Check LIERNA CASTLE. That made the page is not usable for a long time and now only partially.

Also, the quote here the has made only out of spite to put me always in a bad light by creating prejudice against me by the whole community.

I have always worked with form errors that I corrected in time in good faith and with good will but not concealing adoperandomi to correct errors if there were warnings.

Pernso that personal attacks, creations of bias for personal reasons, never open discussions, delete entries with sources several times without even comment on the reason and create prejudices is not in the regulations of wikipedia. --Alec Smithson (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I also wonder who is open a signal officer on how to intervene with Justlettersandnumbers cancellations arbitrary and unjustified unkind to Justlettersand, against those who create texts. If you check the way he acted, not only with me, also often it intervenes with presumption of facts of which he knows nothing, as the Italian design when he specializes on goats, making him lose a lot of time with the obvious and he made clear and important research in his free will by losing all knowledge. not a nice way to enhance the energy, the commitment and knowledge of the editors that Justlettersandnumbers. --Alec Smithson (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

On copyright: despite the protestations above, the content posted without attribution at Lierna Castle by Alec Smithson with this edit on 21 October 2015 is (with minimal changes) a Google translation of it:Castello di Lierna. Alec Smithson has never edited that page, so is not the author of the content. He also posted a French translation of it here, equally without attribution. Copying Wikipedia content without attribution is a form of copyright violation (see, for example, this discussion). The editor had already been advised of this here, here and here, so I blanked the page and listed it at WP:CP. The editor still did not provide attribution. Since another editor was trying in good faith to work on the page, I finally provided the attribution myself yesterday and removed the copyvio template. However, all other substantive edits of this editor should ideally be checked for similar problems; that I'm already aware of, Battle of the Three Mountains contains some copying from it:Battaglia dei Tre Monti, and Fernando Carcupino started out as a Google translation of it:Fernando Carcupino. Neither page on it.wp was written by Alec Smithson, neither page here carries attribution.

On dubious or deceptive edits: (1) Smithson re-adds Carlo Bazzi to Art collection of Fondazione Cariplo even though he has already been told that it holds none of his work; (2) the two references in Fernando Carcupino are copied from Brera Academy, where I added them with this edit; neither of them has any mention of, or conceivable relevance to, Carcupino. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I entirely second the concerns raised about the competence and conduct of Alec Smithson and of his proliferating contributions to English Wikipedia. Whether he writes everything in Italian and then uploads inadequate machine-translations to articles and discussion pages, such as this one, or his rambling reflects a chaotic thought process I can't discern: the point is that his editing in English, when not copyvio'd, is at best consistently and substantially below the minimum standard for valuable contribution to this encyclopedia and, at worst, simply incomprehensible. His work is not improving. He continues to assert that the problem is primarily his critic, not his contributions, so he is unlikely to improve: acknowledging imperfect English while contesting or ignoring objections to the repeated exaggeration, fabrication and/or manipulation of facts and misuse of sources to conceal lack of verification and original research reflects a commitment to behavior that flouts the principles and standards of Wikipedia. On other wikis and here he has made it clear: he won't stop unless stopped. I've challenged his edits as spuriously sourced repeatedly, and expressed my view that he should no longer be allowed to contribute to the project here. FactStraight (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

I believe that Alec Smithson's reply above illustrates as well as anything could just what the nature of the problem is here: he does not have a sufficient grasp of English to interact and communicate with other editors; his apparent total indifference to any and all advice given may well be due to failure to understand it.

Not without hesitation, I propose that Alec Smithson be indefinitely blocked from editing here until and unless he can demonstrate (1) competence in English and (2) understanding of our policies, particularly those relating to copyrights and to verifiability. We simply cannot tolerate an editor who repeatedly ignores copyright requirements and adds dubious or hoax content. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:58, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with an indef block unless there objections by anyone other than User:Alec Smithson. These problems began in 2014 at it.wikipedia and cut-and-pasting, poor communication, suspect referencing and unverifiable content are not acceptable. The reply above just blames those having to deal with his poor editing and incoherent messages. Fences&Windows 00:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support as proposer. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:25, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Fake: Carlo Bazzi is in Art collection of Fondazione Cariplo, Carcupino is an artist inside and artist with the oggicial award of italian government: Knighthood of the Order of Merit of the Italian Republic for artistic merit by the President of the Italian Republic.

Fake: I had more then the minimum standard for valuable contribution to this encyclopedia and in the end my text is easy to understand. And you never try to Correct only to destroy with vandalism.:

Fake: I never ignoring objections, Justlettersandnumbers erase text and never oper a talk page and reason also when are present several references.

Fake: I never build original fact. --Alec Smithson (talk) 19:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support Assuming all the best faith in the world isn't going to help when there is such large deficiency in their ability to communicate effectively. If anything, the inability to communicate and be understood effectively is disruptive. Asking other editors to parse what Alex is trying to write so as to clean up their edits is unreasonable. Blackmane (talk) 23:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Competency is required. BMK (talk) 02:35, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support per WP:CIR. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 14:33, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Whether the behavior stems from a competency issue or, since it is noted below he has been banned from several European wikis for similar behavior, an elaborate troll it should not be allowed to continue. If Alec Smithson wants to contribute to Wikimedia projects they should do so in a language which they are competent in. Also, they have been banned, seemingly as a vandalism only account, from several other wikis so it may be time to explore a meta:Global lock so the problem is not simply passed on to one of our sister projects. Jbh^Talk 02:07, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Defense

Please don't block me.

a. to. it's true I have a deficiency in English syntax, but all my texts in the end I have been corrected with the support of other publishers, always. b. I never violated copyright is a false accusation, sometimes after asking to directors if it was accepted (I track) I translated other languages ​​wikipedia, sometimes I have not shown it to be a translation because I did not know how to do and never me explained how to make Justlettersandnumbers also my request. I did not insist in understanding this because translations, often texts I realized, were free and as such were not the same and are often partial texts. I never violated copyright law even if false accusations magnified about were expressed by Justlettersandnumbers always for personal reasons and attacks against me. One example Lierna Castle where he created a false scaremongering and when I reported it to amminstratori has handled the unlocking page. But first it was a block and then ran to solve it? This behavior analysis shows that the will is not hit me and do good wikipedia. c. He has always influenced the community at me with accusations tendeziose. d. I always created accounts and references of my texts with great commitment and effort and time. e. is. Justlettersand Numbers has always deleted my texts even when reported multiple sources of references without ever opening discussions, writing the reasons for it. Not even at my request. I believe that this is not the policy of wikipedia believe they are vandalism. f. I understand that my bad English grammar improvement is more easy and obvious, but perhaps does not take into account the harm that a person may do so at wikipedia in silence, wiping more information with historical sources and constantly attacking me personally for personal reasons. Com is that he is always (also fomenting others) to criticize me and others never? g. not in charge no matter whose arrogates knowledge. I've had very often examples such design does not know who Castiglioni. It specializes only in goats and cows. What I ask is not to be judged by this person, with others I have always had an excellent working relationship also of differences. It 'always and only him that I contresta putting me in a bad light, and does so for personal reasons with persecution. Thanks for your attention. --Alec Smithson (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

No, you do not have a "deficiency in English syntax", you plain and simply cannot write English at a level sufficient for an English-language encyclopedia. You may think what you're writing is English, but, in fact, it's a mish-mash, sometimes barely understandable. It's what would happen if I were to try writing in, say, Polish with the help of a phrase book, a dictionary and a mechanical translator. It wouldn't be good enough for the Polish Wikipedia, and what you do is just not good enough for English Wikipedia. You need to edit the Wikipedia of your native language, or any other language you have complete command of, but not here. BMK (talk) 02:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

From their interests, I wonder if their native language is Italian. However, it's a sad indictment when 6 different language wikis, the French, Italian, German, Latin, Dutch and Swedish ones, have all blocked him. Blackmane (talk) 05:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed [21], for (mechanical translations):

• "Traductions automatiques/Textes incompéhensibles" ("Automatic translations / incomprehensible texts")
• "Vandalbot: Vedi pagine utenze problematiche 10/8/2015" ("Vandal Bot: See pages utilities issues 08/10/2015")
• "wiederholtes Einstellen von Botübersetzungen" ("Repeated setting Bot Translations")
• "Ob scripta sensu sive et Latinitate carentia" ("On account of the lack of written sense or et Latinitate"}
• "Doorgaand plaatsen computervertalingen ook crosswiki actief; geen zinvol bijdrager" ("Through placing machine translation also cross wiki active; no meaningful contributions")
• "Vandalkonto: crosswiki vandalism" ("Vandal account: crosswiki vandalism")

Can most of Europe be wrong? BMK (talk) 06:26, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Counter-proposal

I ask to be blocked Justlettersand Numbers:

a. rudeness and discourtesy towards me always b. She was always attached to test its communication of apology in which he stated that he exagerated c. not competent editorial and content of arguments in which it operates, specializes in animal husbandry and goats and comes with saccezza without knowing anything about such design did not know who was Castiglioni. is. always cancels primary information made research with specific sources, without opening discussions and often without giving any justification, but only deleting a priori. to request discussions but nothing has opened a dialogue and discussions allowed.

Think about what behaviors may have with others who do not respond and suffer, doing so hurt wikipedia. --Alec Smithson (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC) --Alec Smithson (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - Attempt at retribution. No reasonable basis provided for a block. BMK (talk) 02:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Huldra and Terrible towel7

I just blocked Huldra (talk · contribs) and Terrible towel7 (talk · contribs) for flagrant edit warring on As'ad AbuKhalil. I see that the article is under arbitration remedies and sanctions, but I'm pretty lost about what steps need to be taken now that I've done that. Could another administrator more familiar with arbitration enforcement stuff please pick up from here or advise me on what I need to do? Thanks, Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

You need to unblock Huldra immediately and apologize. If you're not "familiar" with their various relevant rules, don't go off half-cocked. You need to read this, at minimum: WP:ARBPIA3 Dan Murphy (talk) 00:37, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Unblock yes, apologize .. for what? Arbcom passed both this rule and this other rule without modifying the first rule to take into account the second. Someone should file a WP:ARCA to get it sorted. NE Ent 00:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC) Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Amendment_request:_ARBPIA filed. NE Ent 01:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Umm what? The first rule clearly says that while reverting IPs is exempt from 1RR, IT IS STILL SUBJECT to the "regular" edit warring rules , and explicitly mentions 3RR in that context. SO even if the first rule was not amended to reflect that the same restriction now applies to edits with less than 500 edits, it obviously still requires compliance with 3RR (for IPs as well as editors with les sthan 500 edist) - Huldra reverted 10 times and violated 3RR - why did you unblock her? When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 02:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

After doing a search on Terrible towel7's edit history to verify no discretionary sanctions alert is present, I placed the {{ds/alert}} template on their talk page. NE Ent 00:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It's right there on the top of the page Huldra was editing (same one the sockpuppet was editing) and all the Arbpia tagged pages, smart guy. ks whatever clearly didn't read it and just likes his blockination fix.Dan Murphy (talk) 00:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, of course. It couldn't just be a mistake. No, "ks whatever" is clearly on a power trip. clpo13_(talk) 00:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's Ks0stm. But regardless, I unblocked them with a full explanation. My two pieces of advice: WP:AE is better than revert warring, and someone should update {{ARBPIA}}. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I have also expanded upon the source of this at the clarification request filed by NE Ent. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 01:11, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I've expressed my thoughts at ANEW. Huldra's block was very bad, there was a WP:3RRBLP issue and it was declared as such in the first revert. 10-year clean block log: tainted for a single-purpose likely sock who was adding material that may look highly libelous. LjL (talk) 00:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

^^That is extremely unfortunate. Do admins have a way of purging block logs, I wonder?Cebr1979 (talk) 01:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the unblocking. I have edited in one of the most contentious areas of Wikipedia for over 10 years, without ever getting blocked. That was until Ks0stm came along and ruined my clean block-log. And giving an obvious sock reason to triumph. I´m so furious right now that smoke is coming out my ears (so it feels). Is there any way to clean that block-log? And a dozen WP:TROUT to User:Ks0stm Huldra (talk) 01:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• It's technically possible to RevDel them, though obscuring block log entries may be unpalatable to some. - Alison ^❤ 01:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • User:Alison thanks, palatable or not, who should I ask? The problem is that each and every "new editor" in the I/P area who comes along *will* use this against me. Guaranteed. It´s a .....rough neighbourhood. Huldra (talk) 01:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
    • I'd be happy to do it myself if there's a precedent for it. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 01:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
      • In my opinion (but I have no idea if policies agree with me or not), I think the "precedent" is the fact you issued a block in error and now your error needs to/should be corrected. If it's possible to be done (from a technical standpoint, I have no idea), it should be.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
      • I don't know if there's precedents, and I can understand wanting to ensure that it's accepted first, but I personally also think it should be done. LjL (talk) 01:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
        • WP:CRD is why I say if there's precedent. So far as I'm aware, I'm not allowed to RevDel block logs. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC) Though I did ask here. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

why would you revdel it? You need to reblock her. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if a reblock is necessary, but an unblock was unwarranted. Regardless if she violated 1RR, which she admittedly did not, she did violate 3RR and should have been blocked for that, and she should have reported the user to editwar or 3rr, her reverting was a violation of 3RR. The ARBPIA ruling of allowing autorevert of those not allowed to comment do now overrule the 3RR rule. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 02:20, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I can't do both at once. I unblocked because the restriction against new users, which can be enforced "by reverts", was enacted after the 1RR restriction. I therefore think it a more reasonable assumption that the new user restriction supersedes the 1RR restriction. I'm not changing it again unless instructed to at the C&A request. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

She was reported for violating 3RR, which is what she violated. She is allowed to violated the 1RR ARBCOM in enforcing the ARBCOM new user restriction, UP TO 3RR, once she reverts three times, then regular Wikipedia policy kicks in and she correctly was blocked by you. It says as such at ARBPIA and ARBCOM. She should have reported the other user instead of continuing to revert. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 02:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:REVDEL#Log redaction is the pertinent section. This can only be done with ARBCOM approval. So you asked in the right place. -- GB fan 02:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

This is hindsight but there should be an edit filter, like at Gamergate controversy, that prevents editors who don't meet the editing restrictions from editing the article. Relying on multiple reverts like this can make the situation confusing unless the admin is up-to-date on developments in the sanctions in this subject area. Is there a reason an edit filter can't be created on the most editing articles? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• The edit was a terrible BLP violation, and this edit summary a gross misrepresentation. I don't see how that does not trump everything else. That this went on for a couple of hours reflects poorly on us admins. Drmies (talk) 06:44, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not really. The article / admin ratio here is 8035.3614035088. Admins don't protect articles, editors protect articles -- admins are here to help/protect editors. As much as Huldra was trying to do the right thing -- and as much as the block was quite unfortunate -- they served up a series of seven reverts marked minor; if you're not reverting obvious vandalism you put something in the edit summary, and going mano a mano with another editor is pointless - you come here or WP:BLP/N or the talk page of you favorite admin and get help. NE Ent 10:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• No, NE Ent, you're wrong, or you misunderstand me. Huldra did make the claim in her first revert (well, BLP, bop, hardbop...), and when I say "reflects poorly on us" I am not making a comment about rules or notifications or whatever. Plus, she asked for protection, and reported at AIV which is not inappropriate: willful BLP violations are pretty much "a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia". One can quibble and say she should have done all kinds of other things, and that's what you're doing. BLPN is a noticeboard and not necessarily a cruising ground for administrators, and her favorite admin was probably napping on the job and had their phone on silent (sorry Huldra).

  What I mean, Ent, is that an admin should notice these things going by on Recent changes, for instance; surely I'm not the only one out of us 1700 or whatever admins who looks at that occasionally. And when an admin sees something like that, they should do something. That this wasn't done means that no one was watching and/or no one was paying attention. I think an admin's job is also to watch and to defend the project and its good-faith editors. That doesn't mean that Huldra's sevenfold revert was not pointless (though it sounds very biblical), but certainly we should have paid more attention. I'm not talking about paperwork or whatever; I'm talking about initiative and obligation. Drmies (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, @Drmies: the only potential "mistake" I can see Huldra as having done is making many reverts when she could have contacted an admin or reported the matter and waited; but it's a mistake that was in no way a breach of rules, it was only a mistake in the sense that it could have caused an admin who wasn't looking at the matter very attentively to block her (which is what happened). So, do you think it would be possible, as suggested, to revdel the block of a very established editor's otherwise clear blocklog? It's obviously important to the editor to have a clean log. LjL (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's above my pay grade, Ljl. What I can do is make a suggestion: if one finds themselves in a situation like Huldra's, use ALL-CAPS in an edit summary to say "HEY ADMINS WAKE UP AND BLOCK PLEASE" or something like that. It's terrible manners, and it looks awful in the article history (so maybe use it in the edit summary on the user's talk page), but sometimes it helps. Drmies (talk)

A simple "BLP" (on every revert) most likely will suffice, and is less typing. NE Ent 17:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@LjL, apparently only Arbcom can authorise such a RevDel. The discussion is here: Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (1RR). Begoon ^talk 23:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

So much for WP:NOTBURO. Well, I think it would be a nice gesture for the blocking admin, Ks0stm, to approach ArbCom and make that request. LjL (talk) 00:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@LjL: I did yesterday. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Cool! LjL (talk) 00:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

No, you're wrong, Drmies. Per WP:Administrators. "Administrators assume these responsibilities as volunteers who go through a community review process. They are not acting as employees of the Wikimedia Foundation. They are never required to use their tools." (emphasis mine). According to this page, there were 3,104,256 edits in November, or 103,475 per day; given the expectation of administrator activity is minimal, the concept that every edit is screened by an admin isn't feasible, nor is it expected there is 24/7 coverage of the forums WP:AIV et. al. you refer to. (Incidentally, {{NUMBEROFADMINS}} = 855). In order words, admins are only expected to a) not act like total jerks b) not repeatedly or blatantly screw things up. Putting real life ahead of trying to solve all the problems of wikipedia, or making a good faith error as occurred here, is not a cause for collective self-flagellation. NE Ent 17:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Sheesh Ent. I am sorry I didn't see this happening, and I am sorry that I wasn't there to help a bona fide editor out and prevent a double block, one half of which was unwarranted. You don't have to tell me that admins are volunteers--I happen to be an admin and a volunteer, and I'm not advocating self-flagellation; I'm rather advocating that we pay more attention. You can point at all the statistics you want, but I only have to point at the article history to see that no one noticed it in time. And this is not the first time that the right action is not performed soon enough. I don't know what or who you are trying to defend. Maybe you should run for admin and take on this volunteer job, and then we have admins+1 to help us help editors make edits. Drmies (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The reversion was of an editor who should not have been editing the page in the first place. WP:ARBPIA3 is totally clear on this point. The block of Huldra by Ks0stm was unwarranted. This wikilawyering about WP:3RR is totally disgusting, by the way. WP:ARBPIA3 General Prohibition remedy says: This prohibition may be enforced by reverts.... There is no ambiguity here about Huldra's actions falling within the remedy. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No, the ambiguity was the intersections of their actions and the other remedy, which is why it's being discussed at WP:ARCA now. NE Ent 10:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

There was no ambiguity. The General Prohibitions remedy obviously supersedes the older one. Ks0stm simply didn't know about the WP:ARBPIA3 remedy and the old template text wasn't updated. It is ok: WP:AGF. I was not referring to Ks0stm in the "wikilawyering" comment. I hope it gets cleared up at WP:ARCA to prevent similar snafus in the future. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:29, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

There is also no ambiguity that the actions fall under WP:3RRBLP. You are allowed to make multiple reverts over a BLP violation (and certainly such as seemingly egregious one). There is no need to have a lengthy debate about this. Of course, the fact that the other editor was a sock etcetera just makes the case stronger. LjL (talk) 14:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify; I was in no doubt that this was a BLP-violation, in addition to an ARBPIA3 violation. After my second revert, I asked for semi page-protection here, 23.36. Unfortunately, that was not acted upon until 00.44. (It should be 110% uncontroversial to semi a BLP in the ARBPIA-area; last time I asked for that, I did it 21.22…and the article, Marwan Barghouti, was protected 11 minutes later.) I was named in the 3RR report at 00.02…then blocked at 00.05 (without ever being notified of the 3RR report ) Frankly, I cannot recall anyone being blocked so quickly after a 3RR report.

If admins here had reacted as quickly to the page-protection, as they did to the 3RR, we would never have had this problem: that would have stopped Terrible towel7 ‎editing the article. (Yes: he is *that* “new” an editor.) And yeah; I should have been clearer that it was a BLP (I´m a horrble speler). And I was late in reporting it to WP:AIV (there were several edit-conflicts there). However, this could also have been avoided *if* all the “steps” in 3RR had been followed: the reported editor is supposed to be notified. I never was. If I had been, I would have explained the situation. There is a reason why the set-up on 3RR is as it is.

If I should ask for anything, it would be more admin eyes on WP:RPP, and note that ARBPIA3 gives you the right to indefinite semi-protect any article under ARBPIA (not only BLPs). (Oh, and I wish for a clear block log for Christmas…but that is for arb.com to decide) Huldra (talk) 20:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment: I just reverted this edit by BlueSox to this section as it was a personal attack against Huldra -- samtar ^whisper 13:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Reporting User:FreeatlastChitchat

The user is of a nonconstructive background who has experienced being blocked. The note at the very beginning of of his talk page is also suggesting how he himself evaluates his own edits. His edits seems like edit warring for which he has been warned by other users (Human3015, Sakimonk, Code16) multiple times (refer to his talk page). He tends to remove well sourced materials without building up a consensus and has received warnings for this behavior by users Septate and Sakimonk. I would evaluate the user as a disruptive editor considering a series of his edits over time which forms a pattern that seriously disrupts the project. Mhhossein (talk) 07:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Update: He Violated civility by accusing me for "blatant lying" and calling other users "a bunch of POV pushers. Per WP:POVPUSH, "calling someone a "POV-pusher" is uncivil and pejorative, and even characterizing edits as POV-pushing should be done cautiously."

• Comments by the Accused(FreeatLastchitchat)
  

First of all pinging other editors who share your POV to your drama is highly unrecommended because then I cannot assume good faith about you. Secondly there has never been a single time when my edits were removed by consensus. Let me bold that up for you NOT A SINGLE TIME. you can see from multiple discussions ACROSS MULTIPLE TALK PAGES that after uninvolved editors have their say more than 90% of my edits go through and I always accept the opinion of uninvolved editors who, coincidentally, agree with me for the most part. It is quite true that some editors are mightily pissed off at my edits but I cannot help that, I am not your babysitter, and this is wikipedia not your personal diary. Other editors who join this discussion can take a look at my most recent foray into this field here at Hadith and criticism of hadith talk pages. I made some suggestions which pissed of Code16. He was unwilling to accept them until @Drmies: and @HyperGaruda: stepped in. Uninvolved editors will also be pleased to notice the blatant lying which Mhosseain has resorted to in this complaint as it is plain from viewing the edits that are called removals by Mohesein, that I merely moved the material from one section to another. The article had more bytes after I was done editing than it had before. I actually added to the article. True, I may have removed some duplicate sentences but that is always done to trim down.
Uninvolved editors will also see from this discussion that once again, I have listed my concerns 9/10 out of which have been agreed upon by another editor. I then edited the article accordingly.
The only "disruption" I am guilty of is that of deleting hagiography and blatant POV statements, which of course rub some people the wrong way. My page is full of warnings because that is the only thing these POV pushers are able to do, that ofc and start this kind of ANI drama. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• This seems to be a content dispute. I see not much evidence of disruption, though there has been some edit-warring on Mawlid. There has been plenty of discussion on the talk pages, some of it heated, as is normal in contentious areas. Removal of content is fine per WP:BOLD, but more WP:DR should be pursued if one's bold edits are reversed. I see FreeatlastChitchat's edits as mostly constructive. It is still good to tread carefully in contentious areas to not step on too many toes. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian perhaps you can give your opinion on the Mawlid TP. I am kinda pulling out my hair that even when I haev thoroughly discussed my edits an anon IP is removing them. He also removed a simple merger which was through an AFD. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

First of all, those editors whom I don't know don't share my POV, they are users who just figured out your disruptive editing. Secondly, please stop accusing users for pushing POV. As you know, this behavior is taken seriously and insisting on it may lead to penalties such as block. Finally, regradless of your edits, the problem stems from your disruptive behavior. Unfortunately, you accuse users for being POV pushers and for being just pissed off when they object your behavior. You have mistaken "deleting hagiography" for deleting well sourced materials. Mhhossein (talk) 09:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingsindian: Calling others "a bunch of POV pushers" is not deemed constructive, is it? Of course no one objects constructive discussions, but we should not forget that being bold requires being able to involve constructive discussions and being able to handle heated ones. Mhhossein (talk) 10:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingsindian: What about accusing me for "blatant lying"? Is it constructive enough? Mhhossein (talk) 10:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• It would help if Mhhossein did not make ad hominem comments like this one.[22] Mhhossein's strange ideas about sourcing can only lead to conflict; He seems to think that someone can be "explicitly mentioned" by a book that has no "a direct mention of his name"!"-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It would help more if you avoided throwing such an unrelated material here, which is welcomed in its right place. The fact is that you are missing the point that "Mahdi in Quran" is discussed by reliable sources in depth and your surprise is strange! Please, if you find it necessary, continue the discussion on the discussion page of the article or on the related AFD discussion. Btw, here you can find what a real "ad hominem comment" is.Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 10:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Let me point out something that's really damning about FreeatlastChitchat: in addition to getting into edit wars on the page, which he should know better than because he's been blocked for it in the past, he went against policy by creating a new AfD 5 days after the one closed for Rape Jihad. In addition, for whatever reason, he recreated an old AfD about the article to make it look like the most recent decision was to delete it. Propose a ban given that he's already had a topic ban for Islam related articles until he demonstrates that he can drop the WP:STICK. --DawnDusk (talk) 00:21, 15 April 2015 (UTC)}}

And another user who is pissed off because I got his most favorite page not only deleted but also salted, actually he is so pissed off that he does not care for etiquette or morals he has decided to shamelessly LIE about me. I would like DawnDusk to show the public exactly when I was topic banned. UNInvolved editors will be happy to see that once again DAWNDUSK has actually proven my point. A bunch of POV pushers wanted to keep rape jihad on wiki. It was an atrocious imbecility masquerading as an article. I tried to get it deleted, and pruned it. The POV pushers ganged up on me and I was banned for one week, not topic banned as he says. During that time the uninvolved decision was that the material that I was trying to remove was so bad that it should not only be removed, it must be kept off Wikipedia for a long long time. Hence the Salt. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 09:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me, I misspoke as I was copy/pasting a previous comment I made about you. You know why that is? This isn't exactly your first time here at ANI. I hardly log in anymore due to outside obligations, but I do find it funny that on the rare occasion I do and come to ANI, you are of course the newest addition at the bottom. However, the fact is that you did receive a ban for atrocious violation of policy (and no matter how many times I ask, you never explain why you falsified an AfD). You have never been able to drop the stick. I don't know why, but that is a certain constant about you. If you are allowed to go with a temporary punishment once more, it will be a matter of time (again) until you wind up back here for being excessively combative (e.g., calling me an imbecile) or edit warring (a personal favorite of yours). --DawnDusk (talk) 09:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it's pretty damning when you violate guidelines so consistently that you must include a warning on your talkpage (one that so beautifully captures the aggression and stick-carrying of yours that gets you into trouble, too!): "So if you are here cuz you are pissed off at me, relax, chill, have a glass of water and pour your heart out to me before going to ANI/SPI/Any other admin place where you can cry." --DawnDusk (talk) 09:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The behaviour and language of FreeatlastChitchat is abusive and offensive. I don't know how someone can tolerate a person whose reply begins with this line?:

And another user who is pissed off

Septate (talk) 10:04, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Umm he isss pissed off at me, why else would he comment like this. Just when did "pissed off" enter the realm of abusive and offensive? I hear it like a hundred times a day. the offensive and abusive slang would be 'piss off. Pissed off only means "very angry". FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well said, Septate. And Free, no. I'm not pissed off. I never have been at you (User:Dfrr is the only one who can do that to me) and have always approached you with sincerity. You entirely missed the point Septate was trying to make. If you have so many people lobbying for your ban because of your past transgressions that you must begin replies with "another user who is pissed off," it is a telling circumstance in favor of your removal from the encyclopedia. And for what it's worth, "pissed off" isn't very polite when you're trying to defend yourself either. --DawnDusk (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

What past transgressions exactly are you talking about. I think you did not read my first comment. let me put it here for you there has never been a single time when my edits were removed by consensus. NOT A SINGLE TIME. You can see from multiple discussions ACROSS MULTIPLE TALK PAGES that after uninvolved editors have their say more than 90% of my edits go through and I always accept the opinion of uninvolved editors who, coincidentally, agree with me for the most part.. I hope that helps. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Although FreeatlastChitchat is not always the gentlest of editors, most of the time he has a good eye for spotting weakly sourced POV content and acting accordingly. Considering that FC's edits are often related to contentious subjects, the cleanups (akin to a milder version of WP:Blow it up and start over) frequently lead to disputes with editors who feel that their beliefs are attacked. In the end, FC's edits are usually accepted -maybe slightly modified- because they are justified WikiPolicy, no matter how many feelings are hurt. I hope that FC will be allowed to continue editing, because frankly, he's one of the few who actually has the guts to tackle problems in contentious areas.
  I do would like to advise FC to adhere to WP:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, instead of waiting for someone to cross the WP:3RR line; to actually reach concensus with everyone (read: wait for everybody to say OK/agreed) before (re-)applying the edits; and to use less... um... "vulgar" slang. This of course also applies to the offended editors, who often jump straight to accusations of attacking their beliefs, rather than first explaining why the status quo should be maintained. - HyperGaruda (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Well this is fun. I looked at the first couple of diffs which supposedly evidence Freeatlast's removal of sources etc. and I don't see it. From run-ins on talk page we've had, they seem to be pretty well versed in Wikipedia policy and their edits improve articles. I will say this, and I agree with HyperGaruda, it would be good if they dropped the salty language. There's "pissed off" and "hissy fit" and "Go cry me a river" and whatnot all over the place (see Talk:Mawlid#Deletion_of_POV_and_other_unsourced_controversial.), and the effect of coming out so strong in one's first sentence is that a. the next sentences are easily overlooked and b. one's audience is automatically antagonized. No, really, HyperGaruda hits the nail on the head--well said. So, should we ban or topic-ban an editor for the occasional forceful term? No. Drmies (talk) 15:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know why HyperGaruda is talking about beliefs being attacked or feelings being hurt! How could you find a single mention of "belief" and such things here? you've missed the point, I think. Is HG trying to say that there's no problem with FC's behavioral pattern? At least his awkward AFD mass nominations signals his bad faith to me. Drmies would better take a look at ([23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28] and etc). Although some parts of his edits are OK, he is damaging the project by deleting reliable and well sourced parts and by being disruptive and uncivil. Mhhossein (talk) 16:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Mhhossein, Drmies can't look at a list of diffs, some of which really fat diffs, and see what you want them to see unless you tell them what to see. On Ali, I see that part of the revert by Freeatlast involved undoing this edit, in which the references added are very poorly formatted and the reliability of the sources impossible, or at least very difficult, to ascertain. What I did see in that same revert is that some of the obviously reliable sources were not removed but simply moved. Nor do I see, in the edits I looked at, incivility or disruption. Drmies (talk) 16:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, So Drmies can't (maybe shouldn't) judge FreeatlastChitchat's behavior by considering just two or three diffs. Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 17:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Mhhossein, that's one way of putting it--unfortunately, while it's not a bad rhetorical move, it does not help your case since I'm the only admin, I think, who's weighed in. Your job here, as the plaintiff, is to convince me that this and that behavior warrants censure. Now, basically I said "you're not giving me the evidence for disruptive behavior"; if you then say "so you can't judge", you're taking out the one admin who took the time to read what up til now is a complaint without merit. It's not even a double-edged sword since you're only cutting your own finger.

Still, it is more truthful to say "in the diffs presented without further explanation, no evidence was found of disruption warranting administrative intervention". If you want to convince an admin that action is warranted you'll need to do a much better job of making your case. In the meantime, all you're getting is two people (me and HyperGaruda) telling Freeatlast that they should be more careful, much more careful, with their choice of words. Drmies (talk) 17:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Freeatlastchitchat nominated many articles for deletion that is notable, but doesn't suit his POV. Drmies believes most of the time he has a good eye for spotting weakly sourced POV content and acting accordingly. If this is true, then there are some AFDs which were speedy keep. And nominating should be considered as disruptive as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Pratapgarh, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Kolhapur, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Pavan Khind, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Sinhagad. You might claim these are months old. Not for these Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casualties of the 2008 Mumbai attacks, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public image of Narendra Modi. The Avengers 18:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• So they didn't win their argument on two AfDs. What's your point? In none of them was the nominator chastised by a closing admin, and one of them was closed as "no consensus". Do you want me to block or ban an editor for nominating two articles and not winning their case? Drmies (talk) 18:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Drmies: This is not actually my case or anyone's, this is the project's case. So, there must be something beyond personal issues. I reckon you were running short of time when you said you could not check the list. Anyway, The Avengers is trying to say another point to which I mentioned. FreeatlastChitchat's mass AFD nomination is just a part of that behavioral pattern I said at the very beginning. As an admin, you must know that "Disruptive editing is a pattern of editing that may extend over a long time" and "Disruptive edits may not occur all in the course of one 24 hour period, and may not consist of the repetition of the same act." Mhhossein (talk) 18:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Mhhossein, it is your case. You brought it here, and you are not giving me the evidence to think anything specific. You can't say "the evidence is in these diffs" if the diffs are huge and complex and all you offer is "he's removing valid sources". How am I supposed to a. find where these sources are removed? b. judge whether the sources weren't poor to begin with? I know very well what you say about edit warring; I have blocked many an editor for longterm edit-warring. You simply haven't proven that this is the case here, and with that I conclude my contributions to this thread. Drmies (talk) 18:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Can we close this one please. The complainant has not provided any specific evidence of disruptive behaviour. The first of his/her diffs[29], he/she claimed was evidence of FreeatlastChitchat deleting well-sourced material. But the diff shows that the complainant must have misunderstood. The cited information from Kitab ul Mola and The Economist was retained and moved to a section marked "Mut'ah as a form of prostitution"; FreeatlastChitchat added more well-sourced material to that section.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Nope, I provided more diffs 16:41, 14 December 2015. I'm not talking about merely an edit warring, I'm talking about a disruptive behavioral pattern which includes edit warring, being uncivil, drive by tagging, mass AFD nominations and etc. Mhhossein (talk) 04:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein which new diff have you provided? Can you point me towards it. Did you edit your original or make a new comment, I cannot find it! I would really like to see how naughty I have been and I may even have an excuse for my naughtiness. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

At your request, diffs are provided here. Mhhossein (talk) 04:51, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein Those have already been replied to by Drmies, I thought that was quite clear. Perhaps you should read the entire discussion again. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I see no reply here about those diffs. Mhhossein (talk) 05:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The reply is given right after your comment with the diffs. If you do not understand English as Toddy1 pointed out to me earlier, and are using a translating service such as google translate. then copy paste the text, one sentence at a time. Instead of asking for a complete translate. the translation will be easier for you to understand. go from full stop to full stop. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

FreeatlastChitchat:English is my second language (Toddy1 might have mistaken me for another user!) and you don't need to make fun of others even if they don't know English. Anyway, if you follow the thread you'll see that you've not provided the explanations (pay attention to 16:41, 14 December 2015 comment). Mhhossein (talk) 06:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: This SPI against the reporter by Freeatlastchitchat should be included in this ANI. Closing administrators are supposed to close AFDs. Why will they rebuke Freeatlast for nominating well sourced articles for deletion which doesn't suit his POV as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casualties of the 2008 Mumbai attacks, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public image of Narendra Modi. The Avengers 05:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

first the diffs, then the AFD's now an SPI? The avengers you are a complete lol person to be frank. 100% lol. Who in the name of all that is holy will ask for a topic ban for starting an SPI? Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:44, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

For the 100th time, your disruptive behavior is not limited to one or two areas. Your edits make a pattern which shows how disruptive you are. As I quoted before, "one act, by itself, may not violate policy, but when part of a series of acts they constitute a pattern that does violate policy. Disruptive edits may not occur all in the course of one 24 hour period, and may not consist of the repetition of the same act." Your awkward AFD nominations (you nominated some clearly notable subjects which ended with "speedy keep" or "keep" and this adds to your bad faith.) Moreover, you fail to respect the civility and tend to accuse others for "POV pushing" and "blatant lying". Your language retards reaching consensus when it comes to discussions (here's an example). You've been warned for committing edit warring (per your talk page). You failed to explain why you have removed those sourced materials (the diffs I provided). Mhhossein (talk) 06:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

AND FOR THE HUNDREDTH TIME Uninvolved admins and uninvolved editors have said that my editing is fine. the only thing it hurts is the feelings of some people who are overly connected to some Wikipedia pages. who think that some page is their page and it should not be nominated, or who think that a page belongs to their religion so they, by default, have its propriety rights. As for my statement that you lied, well it is true. you did lie. Right at the start of this ANI thread. You said I had removed a source, while it was the other way around, I had actually added more sources. so yes, I called you a liar, because you lied. What am I supposed to call you? Actually, what would you call ME if I lie like this?

Furthermore it is clear here that you are beating a dead/decomposed horse. I edit in contentious areas, so I am used to disgruntled editors like yourself trying their best to get me off wikipedia so that they can put hagiography/pov back into their beloved articles. There is literally nothing new that you added to accusations which have been already made against me. I don't delete warning from my Talk page so people like you can see them, read them, and then realize that Wikipedia is not some primary school where you go to the principal with the excuse that someone has hurt your feelings and he should be punished. This is an encyclopedia edited by mature(mostly) editors. So try to be mature when you edit. there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to get angry just because the article you love is being trimmed. It takes me MORE time to delete things than it takes for you to write them. Read that again, it takes me MORE TIME to delete. Because I have to not only read the entire source, I have to look at the context, that perhaps an editor picked something from a few lines back or a few lines after. this takes more time. So what you are accusing me is highly laughable. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:20, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Calling a user as lol person is a personal attack. I won't take the bait by a pov pusher. Comment on the discussion, not on character. Maybe this ANI was necessary to take your mask off. The Avengers 06:26, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Umm, no its not a Personal attack. it means "Laugh out loud" and is used to call a person "funny". another example is calling some one a riot. Dude! If you do not understand English there is a dictionary just a right click away. Select lol, right click, search with google. I thought lol was in common use these day? Almost everyone knows what it means to be frank, you cannot blame me for assuming that now. Well you did blame me, but any way. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian and Drmies: FreeatlastChitchat's rudeness is far from WP:Civility. He/she clearly blames the other editors who have different viewpoints. Even you can find it in the above discussion (for example "blatant lying" to Mhhossein). He/she mocks the others instead of using rational discussion ( [30]) and (Go cry me a river. Can you please stop behaving like a child for a minute here? [31]). How can you tolerate such a manner!--Seyyed(t-c) 08:33, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Sa.vakilian: In your diff [here, FC is basically just disagreeing that wikishia.net is a WP:RS, in rather colourful language. The second diff is similar. They have already been advised to dial down their language; this is an international project and people often misunderstand. I do not appreciate FC calling editors liars on WP:ANI, but unfortunately, on WP:ANI personal attacks and nasty behaviour is the norm, especially when one has been accused. One needs a bit of a thick skin when working in contentious topics. I see their edits on articles as mostly constructive and I do not see enough disruption to support any sort of sanction other than the advice already given. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingsindian: He had been so disruptive that you did not recognize how he was awkwardly calling this book unreliable and I just provided wikishia as a link to introduce the author to him, not as a source! Please note that he has very little knowledge about Islamic sources and he acts based on his own speculations without knowing the authors and their expertise (take a look at this). Mhhossein (talk) 11:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: Unfortunately, I think he/she has not understood what the wikipedia is. He/she judges about the issues based on his/her personal beliefs and condemn those who disagree with him/her. "Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, scientific, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise. An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. " (Wikipedia:NOT) Of course, he/she does not add something but attempt to delete whatever he/she dislikes even if it has reliable source. I can not understand why you justify his/her action like removing a reliable source in this edition[32][33]!!!--Seyyed(t-c) 13:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Sa.vakilian: I have no idea what you mean by "justify his/her action" based on a diff I have never seen before. I limited my remarks to the diffs presented by Mhhossein and you earlier. I have neither the time, nor the inclination to comb through FC's entire contribution history. At a glance, the diff you mention above removed a lot of unreliable sources, like this one, which is a self-published source. The Cambridge University Press source should not have been removed, it seems to me. Perhaps you can ask FreeatlastChitchat as to why they removed it (perhaps it was a mistake?), on the article talk page. This kind of thing is a content dispute, and WP:ANI does not deal with content disputes. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

A note for the closing admin: A mistake (which Kingsindian guesses to be the cause) happens once! if a user tends to repeat the same behavior such as mass removing of contents including well sourced ones and tends to use improper language and has received numerous warnings, the only remaining option is ANI. As an example, besides the diff by seyyed pay attention to the following:

1. Here he removed a whole section of "Baha'i view" which was supported by a baha'i source (the best possible source to describe the view of group A is to use sources related to group A). Of course it was better if the section was tagged asking for independent sources. Anyway, mass removing was not the solution.
2. Here he removed sources such as Irannica and Britannica.
3. Here he removed Peshawar Nights and he'd better asked for another source beside the current one, not removing the whole material. In this diff, he has also removed "Doctrines of Shiʻi Islam : a compendium of Imami beliefs and practices" by Ayatollah Jafar Sobhani.
4. He has little information about guidelines for editing Islam-related articles. Here a group are trying to make FreeatlastChitchat understand that Nafasul Mahmoom is not self published. Same thing happened here.
5. I'd like to add "drive by tagging" by Fc to the this list. [34], [35]. Can you find explanations about those tagging on related talk pages?
6. Accusing other users of pushing POV here. Some more clues are found in this thread calling users a "bunch of POV pushers" and "blatant liars".
7. His language is really annoying. For example, here he retarded reaching a consensus by his so called "colorful language". Although in the same discussion I enjoyed discussing with HyperGaruda.

I would call the above a "pattern of disruptive" behavior which should be stopped. He does not have to edit the articles with which he is not familiar. Mhhossein (talk) 16:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: seeing that my edit at Hadith of Fatima Tablet has been questioned in what appears to be a mistake on my part I would like to explain that edit as I carefully scrutinized the source before removing it. I will let you and other uninvolved editors decide what should have been done. So here goes. The article Hadith of Fatima tablet should give information about a Hadith i.e. something connected to the Islamic Prophet Muhammad ^SAW because its very title says that it is a hadith. The very word "Hadith" means that it is something that the Prophet ^SAW did, said or was connected to. Now if you look at the article you will find that it is a WP:COATRACK and full of unreliable sources and I was pruning /trimming it down. When I came to this source I took the time to read what it says. The source in question is reliable beyond a doubt, however there are some things which anyone can see

1. It makes no mention of any "Hadith" or tradition. Sourcing such a claim to this book is WP:OR
2. It mentions the Fatima Tablet as being given to Fatima, not to the Prophet ^SAW, thereby making it almost impossible that this incident can be called a hadith and calling it a hadith and sourcing it to this source is WP:OR
3. It does not mention the Prophet Muhammad ^SAW at all, rather it says that a companion was discussing the tablet with Fatima RA, which is pure source misrepresentation.
4. It does not contain the sentence which it is supposed to be the source of i.e. the sentence"This hadith nominated to the names of twelve Imams as successors of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.". Rather it says "was a tablet containing the names of the twelve imams of the ahl-al-bayt or house of the prophet". The difference is subtle verbally but it changes everything in the meaning. First of all the source does not say that the "hadith" or the tablet "nominates" anyone. It just says that "it contains". Which means that it is just a list and holds no importance as a nomination. Secondly it never states that the tablet "names the imams as successors to Prophet Muhammad ^SAW". This all can come under misrepresentation or WP:OR. I'll AGF and assume OR

So seeing that the one single sentence taken from the book has almost nothing to do with the Hadith of Fatima tablet I removed it. To be frank I must have accidentally unwatched the article and my edit seems to have been reverted so I am heading over to talkpage to have fun, you can join me for some good old fashioned BRD if you wish. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:58, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

@FreeatlastChitchat: Regarding constructive style, it is clear that you should discuss about such cases on the talk page before removing them. --Seyyed(t-c) 05:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

That's exactly why I say FreeatlastChitchat is acting based on his little (or wrong) information. "In Shiʿism, however, in addition to Hadith about the Prophet those about the Imams are authoritative as well"[36] So this case which is narrated from Ja'far al-Sadiq, the sixth Imam of shia, is certainly regarded as Hadith. So, why did you think it was WP:COATRACK when it was focusing on the very Hadith of Fatima tablet?

1. The source is exactly mentioning that the Fatima's Tablet contains the name of the twelve Imams and is copied by Jabir ibn Abdullah (he was one of the narrators). (what part of it is WP:OR?)
2. The incident was certainly a Hadith from the Shia view point! The only meaning you've found about Hadith is the definition by Sunni Muslims which is not the whole fact.
3. The source does not have to mention Muhammad. The source is directly talking about the Tablet! What else do you want? You should not have removed it. You should have at most altered the text.
4. That "It does not contain the sentence which it is supposed to be the source of i.e. the sentence"This hadith nominated to the names of twelve Imams as successors of Muhammad, prophet of Islam." is not a justification to remove such a reliable source! You should have at most altered the text and opened a discussion on the talk page!

Even if the text contained WP:OR you should not have removed such a directly related and reliable source! This was just one of FreeatlastChitchat's disruptive behavior and I mentioned some other diffs which need more investigations. His contributions is full of such awkward mass deletions and it's not clear how many reliable sources he has removed besides the unreliable ones. Mhhossein (talk) 11:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

His "block log" is also noteworthy. Mhhossein (talk) 19:23, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Another distruptive behavior by him calling others's comment "imbecilic". Mhhossein (talk) 07:26, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Classic WP:STICK issues you have displayed. I will not be contributing any further to this discussion unless pinged here by an admin or an uninvolved editor. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 12:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the "imbecilic" comment, I generally agree with the thrust of the comment (that the person to whom it was addressed did not justify their !vote properly), and it was not strictly speaking a personal attack since it referred to the comment rather than the commenter. But I advise FreeatlastChitchat to keep their smart-ass/sarcastic comments to themselves. Not everyone is as understanding as me. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:39, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The comment was clearly uncivil. Anyway, this was just a tiny part of his disruptive behavioral pattern (one should follow the thread to get the point). Mhhossein (talk) 05:59, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Kingsindian, Drmies, HyperGaruda, Sa.vakilian, and Slakr: As you see I provided some new diffs along with explanation showing what sourced materials he has mass removed. This is while he has recently received warning for edit warring and been blocked today (forth time being blocked this year) by slakr for this behavior. Mhhossein (talk) 11:29, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: You might want to read the essay WP:ANI Advice. Have some pity on me: I am not paid for this stuff, I am just a bystander. You need to bring a coherent case, all the diffs in one place. I will not be looking at each comment in this already very long thread. At this point, I can only hope that some uninvolved admin will look at this thread and decide what to do here. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:55, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingsindian: Thanks. I thought it may make the thread lengthier and editors may think I'm just repeating the stuff! Mhhossein (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Austrian Empire

Could I get a few more editors experienced in Austrian-Hungarian history to look at the edit war that has erupted in Austrian Empire and Kingdom of Hungary (1526–1867)? I have full-protected both articles after extensive reverting by a number of people - there is a lively discussion on the talk page but it's being plagued by personal attacks thrown around, which makes it difficult for me to call a consensus. Note: I haven't pinged anybody to this discussion as I'm commenting on the overall conduct rather than any specific editor - please advise if I should Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Essentially Von Hebel is correct. Franz formally incorporated the Kingdom of Hungary into the Austrian Empire when Lazlo states he did (its a bit more complicated than that but Hebel's last post on the Kingdom of Hungary talkpage provides the most accurate explanation.) From what I can see the other parties are mis-construing the sources due to the sentence/syntax when translated. In context however Lazlo is unambiguous. The 'personal attacks' seem to be linked to this mis-understanding of the sources, which unfortunately is a common occurance when dealing with non-english RS'. There also seems to be a whiff of pro-Hungarian nationalism - including the KoH as part of the AE lessens it in some manner etc. If you want to call a consensus, you either need more eyes to interpret the source, or no-consensus it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

While I am not an expert on this subject matter, I will state for the record that I agree with Ritchie333's full protection of the articles (if that helps at all). ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:47, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Threat of violence on my talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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TonySpraks has made a threat of violence in the most recent post on my talk page Would someone else give the user a formal notice? I want no further contact. Thank you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Editor was blocked by HighInBC -- samtar ^whisper 16:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked the account indef and removed e-mail and talk page access. I have personally received similar threats before and thankfully they were all hot air. The foundation at the time gave me contact information to pass onto the police, if you want to pursue this you may wish to contact them. I am not sure what the correct way to do this is, perhaps someone else can provide that info. HighInBC 16:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Not knowing how "serious" the threats were, if Cullen328 would like to pursue a similar course of action, perhaps the emergency contact would be the most prompt and effective method? -- samtar ^whisper 16:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Jayron seems to have given good advice below. HighInBC 16:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I was just about to get around to rev' del'n but @Jayron32: got to it before me. HighInBC 16:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have rev deleted all posts as well, (you beat me to the block) and emailed the foundation as described at Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm. Thanks for alerting us to this. This is usually hot air, but having myself in the past been contacted at my home phone number and had my wife and children threatened by name related to things which have happened on Wikipedia, we should ALWAYS take such threats seriously, and report up to the foundation. If this persists, please continue to pass this to the emergency@wikimedia.org email address. --Jayron32 16:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to all. I request full protection of the page that caused the dispute, Steve Comisar, and please consider adding it to your watch lists. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have watchlisted it, but will hold off on full protection yet. If this user returns under multiple guises, and makes the page uneditable because of their disruption, we can protect it then. Right now, I am comfortable leaving it open, but watching it. --Jayron32 16:47, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have given a 48 hour block to an IP address associated with this editor. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I am concerned that after removing mentions of Steve Comisar being an actor on the reasoning that IMDB is not considered a reliable source and the subject is not notable as an actor, now Cullen328 (previously subjected to threats seemingly about this subject) reinstated such information without much of an explanation. LjL (talk) 17:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I was in error in saying the other day that there was no IMDb page for Comisar. The previous URL was dead, LjL. I reinstated the current URL as an external link, not a reference, which is common practice. I continue to object to language implying that Comisar is anywhere near as notable as an actor as he is as a career criminal. However, he has had some bit parts. I stand by my edits. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I reverted your edits (before seeing this, to be honest). I hope you understand I'm by no means trying to edit war with you, but am merely concerned that after these events, your edits might not genuinely reflect your actual thoughts. LjL (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no chance of an edit war because I never go there, LjL. My comment immediately above reflects my thinking precisely. I am not intimidated by goons such as Comisar's buddy. This article has been problematic for the 4-1/2 years I have been watching it. Please improve it as you see fit. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Cullen328: @Liz: I'm going to slap a semi-protect on the page. It looks like the page had one in the past but it expired in April. These recent issues suggests that it'd likely benefit from this again. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:33, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm going to do this for another year and also indefinitely require that revisions from new and unregistered users be approved before they're posted. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Tokyogirl79, looking into stories about this individual, he is represented by a lawyer, a publicist and an agent even though he is imprisoned until 2018. He also filed a petition for early release. So, I think extended protection is a good idea, especially because his representation prominently lists his Wikipedia article. I think there might be attempts to rehabilitate his image via Wikipedia. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editor making pov page move, copyvio after warning, duplicate articles

Channasandeepanaperera (talk · contribs) came to my attention with these edits[37] where they changed the name of Adams Peak to Sri Pada. I reverted, explaining that we used the normal English name.{https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Channasandeepanaperera&diff=695329185&oldid=695328920} Now they've made a series of moves to rename the article without discussion. The article has been protected 3 times in the past, the latest by User:Favonian but that has expired.

This editor also created Srilankawildlife today which I deleted as a dreadful copy of Wildlife of Sri Lanka. I also explained to them how to copy material between articles.

Also today I warned them about copyvio at Colombo.[38]. 8 hours later User:Diannaa gave them a similar warning for more copyright at the same article.[39] She also deleted a talk page this editor created under the name "User talk:Channa The Expert" as there is no such account.

The editor's only response to messages on their talk page has been to delete them. I'll go notify them now of this discussion. Doug Weller (talk) 16:53, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

@Doug Weller Seems to have nationalistic agenda. Perhaps an early sign of WP:PLAGUE, although not 100% sure. Maybe give some more WP:ROPE then bring out the hammer. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 17:00, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Meh, internet based sources name it Adam's Peak, however most include the local name. Sadly most internet based sources are tourism-related, so would use the English name anyway. Personally I am swayed that in Civilization 5 its named Sri Pada ;) Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

You're looking at the Web, not GBooks or GScholar. They show that Adams Peak or Adam's Peak are most common, although a lot of those sources obviously also mention the name Sri Pada. Irrelevant anyway since they did this after I explained why we call it Adams Peak on enwiki. The editor has simply ignored the warnings. Doug Weller (talk) 19:03, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The talk page has been orphaned from the article, and needs to be moved from Talk:SriPada to Talk:Adam's Peak. --Carnildo (talk) 02:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

 Done - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 16:57, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Recreated their version of the article as a template

See Template:Sri Pada which is simply their version as a template. They've tried to start a move request to Talk:Adam's Peak#External links, but it's a confused copy/paste, not an actual move request. I'm not convinced this editor has a reasonable command of English. Doug Weller (talk) 08:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Due to the issues with the RM I've speedily closed it - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Urgent block needed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Read contributions of the IP, blocked as sock of Shulinjiang before.[40] SPI is at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Shulinjiang. Capitals00 (talk) 13:57, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Still no one to block? Ponyo is offline for about two days, but you can see sock IP's apparent trolling on many namespaces,[41][42][43][44] Capitals00 (talk) 14:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Capitals00 - Use WP:AIV. If it's a socking case, use WP:SPI. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:57, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tendentious editing at Firearms policy in the United Kingdom

• Firearms policy in the United Kingdom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Twobells (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Twobells added some text to the lede of this article. The text was reverted on the grounds of WP:SYN. Twobells rejects that and asserts that his edits are (a) sourced and (b) uncontroversial. His idea of an impartial RfC statement could use some work. I think this user needs a warning and potentially may at some point need to be separated from this article. Guy (Help!) 16:28, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you could do better explaining why this is more than a content dispute. HighInBC 16:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Twobells also objected to my closing of their improper RfC on my talk page. Subsequently, they basically just posted the exact same RfC again, so I've made an attempt to reword it neutrally since Twobells seems insistent on using the RfC process to canvass uninvolved editors to agree with their POV. Note also that Twobells has been blocked several times in the past for edit warring, refusing to listen to consensus, and refusing to disengage. However, I do think this instance is a simple content dispute. For now, anyway. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:48, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

It's a case of WP:IDHT, WP:STICK and possibly even incipient WP:NCR. Please review the user's comments on the talk page. In my view they are tendentious, the user is ignoring dissenting voices and refusing to accept anybody's view that conflicts with his desired edits. So yes, it's a content dispute but one that I think requires a warning to the user such that if he carries on, he can be sanctioned. Guy (Help!) 17:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Hello, everyone and thank you for your time. What these editors call 'Tendentious' is nothing more than the attempted addition of non-contentious referenced material. I would like for a moment to check the definition of 'Tendentious', if that's okay? expressing or intending to promote a particular cause or point of view, especially a controversial one. The material concerned is the considered opinion following extensive research of a number of well-known and respected authors and journalists, their source material speaks for itself, they have no agenda political or otherwise and that is the crux of the matter. More, that no attempt at balance and neutrality has been adhered to in the removal of said source material. With good faith in mind, I premise that editor Nick Cooper is attempting to employ these tactics to avoid the addition of non-contenticious straight forward transparent source material, regards. Twobells (talk) 17:38, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The fact that it is contentious is blindingly obvious from the fact that there is a long argument on the Talk page where you are failing to persuade others of the merits of inclusion. Guy (Help!) 18:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

'others'? There is only one editor apart from myself currently editing the article, you seemingly appeared from nowhere when I challenged the constant reversions of non-contentious referenced material. Moving on, the reason for the very long talk section is not that the referenced material is contencious, rather that another editor consistantly refuses to accept that he cannot remove non-contentious material, if you read the talk history you will see that the conversation is centered around trying to politely and calmly discuss why Nick Cooper must abide by best Wiki policy not employ WP:OR and rather than try and dominate the article as if he owns it accept that other editors have a right to add said material. Twobells (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the edits made my Twobells, it seems they might have a slight battleground mentality, I suggest someone warn him. Weegeerunner ^{chat it up} 17:52, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

With respect, you have just reverted my own edit stating that 'I should not delete other peoples messages', which suggests bias. Also, wanting to add non-contenticious referenced material in a polite and calm manner while being accused of lying and scoffed at for not having the latest computer is not a 'battlefield mentaility' however, it may suggest, perhaps, I am not getting a fair hearing here. Twobells (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

After I cleaned up the language in the RfC and left my own comment on the material to be added, Twobells simply deleted the whole thing ([45]). So, I've made my own RfC. For the record, I was originally summoned to the discussion by the bot that advertises RfCs, I don't give a crap about guns in the United Kingdom. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

What you actually did was rew-write another editors rfc according to your terms of reference, I will revert that and when I am ready I will re-write the rfc according to mine which I believe will neutrally reflect the situation, for some reason you've jumped into the discussion and then appropriated the rfc for reasons known only to yourself. Twobells (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Twobells: you invited outside comment by using the RfC process. RfC means "request for comment". You know what that means, right? It means that your thread gets advertised on a special page, and a special bot goes around putting notices on users' talk pages that there's a thread open requesting comments on an issue. I am one of those users. After the bot notified me, I closed your improper RfC so that other users wouldn't be bothered by it, and then I unwatched the page because I really don't care about this. I only came back because you brought your tendentious "me against everybody" attitude to my talk page. I don't really care about that either, I just explained my rationale and suggested you try with a properly formatted RfC, which you did. So then I offered comment, but you didn't like how it was going and deleted the whole thing. But by that point, I was interested, so I started yet another RfC, which since it's properly formatted is drawing comment from other disinterested users signed up for the feedback request service, and that is not working out in your favour, is it? So, watch what you wish for, I guess. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:58, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Here we go again. This is Twobells' standard pattern: cobble together a series of (often dubious) sources to support some strongly held content he wishes to add to an article, then when someone objects engage in a series of reverts accusing the editor of suppressing his valid edits using a policy such as WP:OR (of which he entirely lacks understanding), then move to the talk page and engage in a war of words, often across multiple threads and always on the offensive. The next move, when consensus is clearly against him, will be to either threaten a report to an admin (this move is falling from favor) or head to somewhere like WP:DRN. Twobells operates on the assumption that if he has content with a source (regardless of the veracity or reliability of the source), his edit is a) not tendentious and; b) must be allowed to stand. A while back, he got on a highly nationalistic streak and attempted to claim several American TV shows were British-American based on some very thin, paywalled textbook sources (all British) and some minor participation by UK entities in the production of the show. Another editor and I went around and around and AROUND with him, attempting to reasonably and rationally discuss why his sources were problematic and the involvement he cited was not in line with MOS:TV, but he would not budge. With consensus well against him, he tried reports to a couple noticeboards as a means of intimidation before trying WP:DRN. The other editor most strongly involved in the discussion and I refused to play his game when it went to that length, and he finally gave up. But it was a long old battle before he did.

There are several peripheral issues that make working with Twobells more problematic. First, he has a tendency to edit and re-edit his posts after one or more editors has responded. Second, he tends to start multiple threads (there are three on the article talk page above as of this morning) related to the issue, resulting in multiple running discussions that are eventually all the same thing. Third, he will suddenly disappear for days on end, then come back, guns blazing. I gather the last is work related, but he never does the editors involved in the discussion the courtesy of letting them known he'll be gone, leaving them to conclude he's left the discussion. None is major by itself, but taken together, they add to the difficulty of carrying on reasonable discussion with Twobells. Someone above said he has a "slight" battleground mentality. That's like saying a woman two weeks from delivery is slightly pregnant. A perusal of his edit history will show a number of these protracted "me against them" discussions on a range of topics. It's exhausting, counterproductive and disruptive. --Drmargi (talk) 21:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The above certainly tallies with my encounters with Twobells, mostly on UK firearms-related page. It seems that Twobells maintains a belief that if something they think supports their own pre-existing view of a subject has been published, then it must stand, regardless of whether other editors dispute it as valid corroboration, or if a key claim or claims in a source can be shown to be wrong or misleading. They also have a tendency to argue the quality of the sources - and/or their authors - as if that magically over-rules the most basic of fact-checking. Twobells frequently accuses anyone who presents evidence that something in one of their sources is in error or otherwise false of relying on OR, and thus declaring such objections inadmissible. Whether this is a case of them knowingly gaming the system, or - as Mrmargi says - a lack of understanding of what actually constitutes OR, is impossible to say. Nick Cooper (talk) 08:25, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Enrique Marquez (accomplice)

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Is one of your brand new articles. Just a wee bit prejudicial, don't you think?Dan Murphy (talk) 20:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not an administrator issue. Please don't use this desk merely to attract attention to discussions, such as an ongoing AFD. That's an improper form of canvasing. --Jayron32 20:34, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

In my business, calling someone who has not been convicted let alone charged a criminal "accomplice" is termination stuff (as well as, rightfully, lawsuit generating). Here, pointing out that what claims to be an encyclopedia calling a man, in its title no-less, an "accomplice" to mass murder, notwithstanding he hasn't even been convicted of jaywalking, is something called "canvassing" which is a very bad thing. Beyond parody.Dan Murphy (talk) 20:41, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User making huge numbers of unilateral page moves with no explanation, no sources

Hi, I tried to engage Chicbyaccident (talk) on his talk page, and asked him to stop moving pages unilaterally. The ones that initially caught my attention were WP:COMMONNAME violations that he's been moving at a fast rate - I can't even keep up with it at this point. After looking at his contributions, I also see massive changes to a bunch of templates; I don't even know what those templates are for, so I thought it best to call this to an admin's attention. Thanks. Rockypedia (talk) 20:00, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Conversation appears to be ongoing at his talk page. What do you need admins to do? Are you requesting a block or a page protection or something like that? If you aren't, there's no reason to involve admins as such. If you just need extra help in breaking a deadlock, admins have no role to play in that WP:DR explains how to do so. If you do need an admin, you only need them to use their admin tools, such as blocking someone. If you want this person blocked or banned, start a discussion to do so. General requests for help don't really belong on this noticeboard, however. --Jayron32 20:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Violation of general sanctions

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2015 San Bernardino attack‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

DHeyward violated the General Sanctions of WP:1RR at 2015 San Bernardino attack‎, per WP:GS/ISIL.

• revert 1 [46]

• revert 2 [47]

- Cwobeel (talk) 21:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Not only that, but editor continues reverting: [48] - Cwobeel (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

You can't cherry pick from consecutive edits. This [49] is what you are calling a revert as it has all my consecutive edits. It clearly isn't a revert. Your third complaint is addition of information. Please show me where the end of consecutive edits and a previous version are the same. I have not seen a "no differences" comparison which would indicate a single revert, let alone two. Or three. Liz has reverted me on multiple article pages with the same subject but such is par for her course. --DHeyward (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

See WP:1RR- you reverted three times. Also see the wording of the sanction [[WP:GS/ISIL#Remedies, and the explicitly wording on specifications imposed on 1RR - Cwobeel (talk) 21:24, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Two points, one major, one minor: (1) The sanctions require that the editor has been notified of their existence. I haven't done a scrupulous search, but on a quick look I did not see any indication that DHeyward had been notified of the existence of the sanctions and of the 1RR limit. Is there a diff which shows that he or she was aware of them before making the edits? (2) The sanctions call for 1RR violations to be reported at WP:EWN, not here. Reporting here is for "general matters". BMK (talk) 21:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

He is aware. I made him aware on his talk page [50] and on article's talk page, and there is a GS notice on the article talk header.- Cwobeel (talk) 21:28, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

But your post on his talk page was after the fact, was it not? And there's no guarantee that he read the talk page header before he made the edits. I think that's why, generally, editors are required to have been notified on their talk page before a violation takes place. I guess that means that everyone gets one for free, gets notified, and then the next one is reportable. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about that. BMK (talk) 21:45, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken please advise on how to move this to the WP:EWN board. Just close this and report there? - Cwobeel (talk) 21:30, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I think so. BMK (talk) 21:42, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

And just for the record, the New York Times is 100% a reliable source. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 21:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

No source is ever "100% reliable" - or there would be no need for them to publish clarifications, corrections or retractions - but you are correct that the Times is considered to be a very reliable source. BMK (talk) 21:47, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Please don't close your own shopping when it fails to go your way. --DHeyward (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you not reading the text? The OP was advised that this was the wrong place, so he closed this and took it there. That's not "foum shopping", and the close was a reasonable thing to do. Your re-opening it was not. BMK (talk) 21:58, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I am not aware of ISIL general sanctions, either. --DHeyward (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

You are now. BMK (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Since this complaint was moved to the proper forum, and can be found here, would someone uninvolved please close this for good? BMK (talk) 22:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User SundayClose

User SundayClose appear to be in an edit war regarding recent statements by Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry. I invited the editor to poll a third party. She declined and complained about a personal attack in my request for a third party or mutually amicable agreement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Litch (talk • contribs) 22:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I invite anyone to look at the edit history of Melissa Harris-Perry to see that no edit war has occurred. Three editors have reverted Litch's attempts to add POV material to article. As for my complaint of a personal attack, here is the personal attack by Litch on my talk page. I don't believe Litch needs to refer to someone as "acting like a piece of deletionist scum" in order to discuss a content dispute. After this attack, I made a request here that someone have a word with Litch about personal attacks. Litch's ANI report here is simply an attempt to retaliate for that report and the fact that I (and two other editors) have called him out for his POV edits on the MHP article. I don't plan to pander to Litch's attempts at inciting a controversy that doesn't exist here, so this is my last comment on the matter to Litch. If someone else has questions or concerns I'll be happy to respond here. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 22:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the history of Melissa Harris-Perry, I do not consider the reversions made by Sundayclose on December 15 edit warring. This is a BLP article, and Sundayclose was correct in reverting the personal opinions / commentary on the article. It's not a content dispute; it's content that violates WP:BLP, which must be removed. The article was later protected due to BLP violations. Sundayclose also made one revert on December 16 and has not touched the article since. So far, I'm not seeing any issues here. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:07, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I requested protection at RFPP after a number of anons showed up to plaster this negativity in the article and defend their precious franchise. Hey, did you know there's a new Star Wars movie out this week? Anyway, Litch came around apparently to continue the fight not long after protection was applied. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:11, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The edits which Litch is trying to add to the article are clearly unacceptable under BLP, which is why I and several other editors have been reverting them. Their edit summary, "racist Vader wankage", and their original edit suggesting Dr. Harris-Perry is "well-known" for a thing she said a couple days ago, gives away their motivation for fighting to include this. This is all after having been asked and then warned to stop this and their personal attack. Was it a personal attack? Well, a good rule of thumb is if you ever use the word "scum" in a description of another editor, you're making a personal attack. It's past time for Litch to be blocked for this. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:03, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Suggesting Dr. Harris-Perry is "well-known" for a thing she said a couple days ago is perfectly reasonable given modern communication modalities. There are literally dozens of articles discussing her statement to any degree of academic depth. This is a cultural touchstone and Dr. Harris-Perry is nationally famed for her stance on this and the larger issue of racial expression of pop culture. My motivation for including it is straightforward, it is an important statement by a leading scholar on an item of massive cultural importance (it doesn't matter if you don't think it should be important, it is). Her statement was derided by a huge number of sources, many talking about how widely talked about the issue is and discussing her expertise on the topic.

The phrase deletionist scum is clearly an ironic reference to the inclusionist and deletionist tendencies on wikipedia (feel free to google the phrase for a history and discussion of the subject) and only attack to the most paranoid of sensibilities. The scum modified the deletionist and described the actions of SundayClose not her person. Litch (talk) 02:13, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Litch - The community, well as Sundayclose, have clearly stated that your use of the phrase deletionist scum was inappropriate. I just want to state this for the record so that you know and understand this. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 04:56, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I think WP:BOOMERANG is necessary in this case. BLP issues and personal attack. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:13, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2 Considering Litch's personal statement on their user page, it's in keeping with their editing approach. That being said, how is this remotely encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of every piece of trivia ever uttered by someone. "There is no bit of trivia or person so minor that someone won't have a question about it and they deserve to find it here. As long as it is sourced (even loosely) and meets most other standards it should be in this encyclopedia" this sentiment is likely to put Litch at odds with BLP policy. And calling other editors deletionist scum is unnecessarily inflammatory. Beware the WP:BOOMERANG, Litch. Blackmane (talk) 23:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The statement by Melissa_Harris-Perry is getting international coverage and is being discussed in academic and social journals. See the links associated with the edit. This is not the random statement of an academic, this is a subject to which thousands of people have devoted as many words discussing. Litch (talk) 02:21, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll just note that The number of words discussing something doesn't make it notable. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll further note that a lot of Star Wars nerds getting all up in arms on Twitter about something doesn't make it notable either. We're not a newspaper or publisher of breaking gossip. In your most recent revert you provided four sources: Mediaite, Fox News, "HipHollywood.com", and Vox. Which one of these is an "academic or social journal", and not a gossip blog? Also, I don't believe SundayClose has revealed their gender on this site, yet you persistently refer to them as "she" and "her". Why do you do that? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:42, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Relevant closed section above. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Now archived. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:26, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Theadele not here?

I went to Theadele's talk page and found numerous notices for pages the user created being nominated for speedy deletion. Three pages were hoaxes, three were obviously invented, four did not have significance asserted, and one fit the latter two criteria. Four other articles the user created were nominated for regular deletion. They may be not here to build an encyclopedia. Qpalzmmzlapq (talk) 01:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

This edit summary of a reversion of one of Theadele's edits seems to explain the situation. The pages are on characters from the TV drama Muhteşem Yüzyıl which the editor seems to have mistaken for real history. SpinningSpark 02:14, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it would be harsh to deem a one-week old account as WP:NOTHERE because of their lack of awareness of notability guidelines and (apparent) inability to distinguish between fact and fiction. I've added the standard welcome template with links to relevant guidelines to their talk page, but in the mean time it may be appropriate to temporarily relegate the user to WP:AFC until they are able to display sufficient knowledge of policy. Elspamo4 (talk) 02:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Elspamo4: That's a good idea: I've left a message on the user's talk page. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 14:20, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

SuperCarnivore591 and trolling

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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SuperCarnivore591 is a "new" user (2,200 edits, first edits show some experience with Wikipedia) that has participated in two recent RfAs solely to troll the candidates:

• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/78.26
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/BethNaught

(see oppose section)

When asked to refrain from trolling in RfAs, the user continues to troll after an admin objected to their trolling in RfA:

• User talk:SuperCarnivore591#RfA

I think we have a WP:NOTHERE and WP:SOCK case. Block and/or check for sockpuppets. Esquivalience ^t 03:30, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Is anything more required? One was left alone and hashed out on the talk page as not going anywhere and the other hatted. The editor's been warned but they don't care. If you want to make a request at WP:SPI, that's not here. Otherwise, should we just wait until the next RFA and block for trolling on sight? Block immediately based on trolling in an RFA? Editor has been here since August. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The editor undid the hatting, and restored their vote. [51] - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post from editor in New Zealand, that could require police intervention

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Kent article

This childish post could be terrorist related and involve potential loss of life- what is the correct procedure, is anyone monitoring? Can I pass it over for someone else to decide what to do.

Please ping me as I do not watch this page.

-- Clem Rutter (talk) 13:16, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@ClemRutter: I believe the diff you intended to show is [52] -- the diff you included shows differences between our Biplane article and our Kent article, which I'm sure is not what you wanted. Since the same IP made this edit ([53]) five minutes later, it's pretty clear that this is just juvenile vandalism, and I am going to revert it. Looie496 (talk) 13:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Looie, I just reverted the vandalism and gave the IP a warning for it. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, cool. And the IP geolocates to New Zealand, by the way. Looie496 (talk) 13:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

(ec with closure) Per WP:TOV, procedure in these situations is "Report. Revert. Ignore." I just sent an email to emergency@wikimedia.org and the edit has been reverted, so there is nothing more to be done at this point but ignore. Deli nk (talk) 13:40, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

PediatricMD on Steve Comisar

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This SPA appeared out of nowhere and edited several talk pages (including my user's), asking various people - in the obviously wrong places, mostly, see contributions please - to reinstate changes that were removed by Cullen328 (and later reinstated by me, but really only because Cullen328 asked, and then removed again partly by Collect and partly by ScrapIronIV.

I am fairly neutral about the changes (read: I don't care), but there is a backstory to this, namely that Steve Comisar himself and/or his supposed associates have been trying to tamper with his WP:BLP, and Cullen328 was threatened about it (see this ANI report and this BLPN notice). For these reasons, I have having a lot of difficulty attributing good faith to this SPA spamming these requests, although no threats are involved this time. LjL (talk) 18:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I have been contacted by the WMF and law enforcement about recent events concerning the Comisar biography. I will share details with any interested administrator by email, and would appreciate hearing from someone with sockpuppet/meatpuppet expertise. I am recovering from a surgical procedure completed yesterday, so may be a bit slow to respond. When it rains, it pours. Thank you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oh FINE -- now you tell me. [54] Should I go into the Witness Protection Program? EEng (talk) 01:49, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Poor EEng, who edits in what seems to me like total anonymity. I disclose my real name, my wife's name, post photos of both of us, list my home town, describe my occupation, and all kinds of other stuff, all in the spirit of transparency. So, if the "enforcer" shows up at my door, I will just say "Wrong address! Go over to EEng's house instead." That should work just fine. Do not misunderstand my comment. This two bit goon who threatened me does not frighten me at all, and should not intimidate any editor here. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• They posted to my here, asking for me to revert since I'd put a protection on the page. I'm getting strong COI vibes here and if it's not someone that was asked to edit, I'd be frankly shocked. Like LjL, I don't have any strong opinions about the changes but I don't like that a good editor was threatened to get specific information re-added to the article. Even if the threats were likely empty, that type of thing makes me want to do the exact opposite of what they're requesting and gives more credence to the claims that they're trying to use the article as a place to rehabilitate his image. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:27, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, if this threatening behavior keeps up it may get reported in the media, and then that can get mentioned in the article, which should go a long way toward bringing his image into clearer focus for the public. EEng (talk) 06:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• "Steve Camden" as "waiter" does appear in the Fists of Iron on-screen end credits. I don't know how to establish whether Steve Camden and Steve Comisar are (as stated in IMDB) the same person. 173.228.123.101 (talk) 07:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:StAnselm

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I want action taken against User:StAnselm for placing a warning symbol on my talk page within this diff]. He accuses me of adding "poorly referenced information" and thereby breaching WP:BLP. He concludes: "There is nothing in the source that indicates he is a "former" cricketer". This statement is absolute rubbish and his action in "warning" me for breach of BLP is bang out of order. If you look at the ESPNcricinfo (CI) citation in the article, you can see it clearly states that the player's career span was for one season only: i.e., 1991–92 to 1991–92. CI always gives a span for players whose career has ended (debut season only for current players, obviously). Therefore, this player Perera began and ended his first-class cricket career 24 years ago and he is a former player as the article asserted without any BLP breach.

I would draw your attention to Anselm's attempt to speedy delete this article despite the fact that it references two highly reputable independent sources. When his proposal was rightly rejected, he tried to cajole the closing admin into changing his decision. In my view, he has misrepresented the facts of the case both to Wolfowitz and in the AfD discussion as regards the sources.

To summarise, he is completely out of order and cannot be allowed to get away with issuing a false warning and a false accusation of a BLP breach. Anyone visiting my talk page can see it and his action could bring me into disrepute if unchecked. It is completely unacceptable and I strongly recommend WP:BLOCK for a suitable period. Jack | ^{talk page} 21:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

That's not going to happen in this case. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:52, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose- yeah, not going to happen. Your article is crap and it should not have been recreated after consensus at the previous AfD and DRV- and being careful of BLP is entirely sensible when we're talking about such meagre sources that they don't even allow the person's full name to be determined or to definitely distinguish him from people with similar surnames. Reyk _YO! 22:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Reyk, you really do not know what you are talking about. The two independent sources are both clear on people with similar surnames. There were two players called S. Perera who played for different clubs. Simple, and we have reason to believe that the first names will soon become available from a third source. Your attitude is extremely childish. What else can anyone say about someone whose idea of a constructive comment is "yeah, not going to happen. Your article is crap". Pathetic. Jack | ^{talk page} 22:13, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Look, you're just not going to get anyone blocked for putting one warning template on your user page. Even if the warning template was glaringly irrelevant, which in this case it was not. This was a very poorly judged ANI thread. It's a shame that you think plain speaking is childish, and that you think it's OK to accuse me of lying just for disagreeing with you. None of this reflects very well on you. Reyk _YO! 22:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: In fact, I have just put another warning on User:BlackJack's page for re-inserting the same BLP violation. BlackJack, if you keep on adding unreferenced claims to BLPs, you are liable to be blocked. StAnselm (talk) 22:28, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

WHAT BLP VIOLATION? Read the source. It confirms his career ended in 1991 and therefore he is a former player. What is your problem? Jack | ^{talk page} 22:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• • (ec) Yes, it's a fair point. We do not know this person's date of birth. It might be that he was 20 or so back in 1991. That would put him in his mid 40s today, so it's not impossible that he's still an active player, perhaps in a lower or regional league. Reyk _YO! 22:36, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Creationist nonsense

Looking at the edits and history of Creation–evolution controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) I suspect that JakeTheEpic8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), WolfBitn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Vrence (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (especially the latter two) are one and the same. In any case there is clearly no point humouring them so I have blocked all three. Guy (Help!) 22:54, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Their edits are pretty blatant. Johnuniq (talk) 23:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@JzG:, Looks like a duck. The only thing I would suggest in addition to that is perhaps opening a SPI and seeking a checkuser.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:32, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Edit summary suppression, very lengthy block needed for IP vandal

User:74.92.70.85 has been subject to escalating blocks for months, and shortly after each block has expired they return and resume vandalizing. They're back again today (see contributions here [55]). The vandalism itself is easily reversed and mostly harmless, but the crude and offensive edit summaries really don't belong in the edit histories, especially for BLPs. I don't understand why this one [56] has been allowed to stand fcr several months. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 02:52, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

IP blocked for a year, and I've revdeleted the edit summary from the usertalk. Reluctant to remove the other edit summaries - they're stupidly offensive but they're obviously just stupid vandalism and not even vaguely related to the articles it affected. Per WP:CRD I reckon reversion is sufficient for these, but other views welcome as always. -- Euryalus (talk) 03:08, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Good block. While such long blocks on IPs are unusual the history shows it is the same person for years now, it just seems they have learned some new words. HighInBC 03:11, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Indef block request for LilDennie Wikipedia

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2 months ago I requested the indef block for this user for his/her disruptive intent. The details are linked here: I link it just to avoid to copy my 1st report. I do another request because, few days ago, I discovered user's block evasion and usage of SP to do the same kind of vandalisms. As you can see by his/her talk there are (more or less) 30 notices, all ignored, accumulated in a month and 2 weeks of activity, with quite no one constructive edit. Well, after a 1-day block in sempter, a 7-days block on 7 October, immediatly followed by a 3 months block on 16 October, 4 days ago user was blocked again (4 months) per block evasion and sockpuppetry. The confirmed SP (see SPI case for Dennie), BlueAngel136, was created in november and did the same work, collecting her list of (ignored) notices in few days, and creating again pages as Black Friday: Kimmie Blanco Reloaded (blocked). Just to do an example of reverted edits in the same page: by Dennie (Oct. 16, 2015), and by BlueAngel (Dec. 12, 2015). So, for persisent vandalism, write-only, recreation of pages deleted over and over again (this was created as redir and permablocked) and now, after the 3rd block, the usage of a sp to evade it, and continue in the same way; I request the indef ban per WP:NOTHERE. Please note that user started to edit only at the end of august and, still now, accumulated: 4 blocks, lots of warning notices, deleted pages, a sock, the protection of a page vandalized by him/her etc. IMHO, I don't think the situation could change at the end of this block. Regards. --Dэя-Бøяg 03:16, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, there was an SPI. An admin took action. I don't see reason to undue their action by extending the block. Perhaps we might ask them here to see why they didn't opt for an indef?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• That's my question as well. I'm going to ping @Vanjagenije: to this discussion since he was the blocking admin. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 11:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know. User was fount sockig, I extended his block, that's it. Maybe I should have extended it a bit more (to indefinite). I have no ejection if someone extends the block to indefinite. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:20, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Resolved

 – I've blocked them indefinitely: we have been immensely patient here, the burden of proof is now on the editor to demonstrate that they are willing to contribute productively -- The Anome (talk) 11:30, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Tobibln and their long-term pattern of unsourced changes

This [57] is the last of a long record of unsourced additions of content from Tobibln (talk · contribs). The user continues ignoring the warnings left at their talk regarding the addition of unreferenced material. You may find more diffs at the user's talk. I believe other actions are now in order.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 14:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC)