Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context!

Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports. Additional notes: RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments. While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy. This page is not a forum for general discussions unrelated to the reliability of sources. Start a new discussion

Jacobin

Hello all. I'd be interested in getting Jacobin, [1] added to WP:RSP, just to make it easier when it comes up in the future.

I searched the archives and found an extensive discussion here. It got 22 replies. My attempt to tally the results is 9 generally reliable, 9 "attribute" (marginally reliable I guess), and 3 generally unreliable.

I notice that another left leaning news site, The Intercept, is green in the table, and I consider Jacobin similar to them. A google search for "Jacobin accuracy" turns up the usual media bias fact check type sites. I know you guys don't like those sites, but one rates them "high" accuracy, another rates them 32, which is a "good" rating.

What are your thoughts on adding Jacobin to WP:RSP, and what is your takeaway from the archived discussion on what classification it should receive? It might be more productive to focus on evaluating the consensus of the archived discussion rather than starting all over. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:42, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Meh, I would consider them more similar to CounterPunch which is rated yellow. As Neutrality said in the last discussion, I would not rely on this for statements of fact (even when attributed) because it's an opinion journal, and for factual statements there will nearly always be a better source. For statements of opinion, "Jane Doe wrote X in Jacobin" is fine, but agree with the due weight concerns. (t · c) buidhe 08:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes Jacobin is a good source. Generally reliable, attribute opinion. I haven’t had any problems using it as a source. Editors generally accept it in my experience. The quote I used in the previous discussion still holds: “bracingly rigorous and polemical in a really thought-provoking way”. Burrobert (talk) 10:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

As for your other question, based on the discussion, I would say there's no consensus that it's generally reliable. (t · c) buidhe 11:44, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Buidhe, yeah, I'd say the consensus of the old discussion was probably yellow, "marginally reliable", often opinion, should attribute. In the interest of keeping this discussion focused, I'd like to state a new question.

Whilst Jacobin is without a doubt a primarily a political commentary source, it's factually rigorous. Its pieces are fact-checked, well cited, and well researched. I notice @Buidhe: compares it to CounterPunch. Which, mind you, is also generally factually reliable though far more heavily opinion based. The thing is, unlike CounterPunch Jacobin also does long-form investigative journalism which puts it closer to The Intercept. @Novem Linguae: why is it "marginally reliable"? Whilst it is doubtlessly a partisan on-line magazine, it's factually accurate, the quality of writing is generally quite high, and professional. CNN and MSNBC in today's world are both typically highly biased and increasingly lean toward "Infotainment" style opinion instead of hard reporting. I fail to see why either should be considerably more reliable. Until there's actual evidence of mendacity on the part of the journal it should be regarded as a highly left-biased but factually accurate reliable source. KJS ml343x (talk) 02:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Re the comparisons here: Intercept trades on its reputation for long-term fact-based investigative journalism, and has an editorial team of seasoned investigators too, whereas the Jacobin is primarily an opinion outlet with editors who have no grounding in the world of reporting. I don't see any evidence of professionalism in this area or much investigative work, so I would place it much nearer than Counterpunch, although less prone to conspiracy theories than the latter. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:00, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Should we add Jacobin to WP:RSP with an assessment of yellow, "marginally reliable"? –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

The consensus in the previous discussion appears predominantly to be "partisan magazine, generally reliable for facts, attribute opinion, check for due weight", in other words similar to WP:SPLC. If you want its addition on RSP, it would require either a RfC or at least two significant discussions (see WP:RSPCRITERIA). There is at present one significant discussion, RSP shouldn't be used as an indiscriminate listing of sources. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 12:22, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this description and this summary of the discussion. In a lot of ways I think a comparison to Reason magazine might be even stronger than the comparison to the SPLC. And yes, I agree that it is premature to list Jacobin. Jlevi (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the yellow classification. While the source is somewhat similar to Reason in that it has a lot of commentary from a given POV, there is a difference in quality. Ad Fontes rates both reliability and bias. Reason is 38.3, 4.1 (reliability, bias)[[2]]. Jacobian is 32.3, -19.9 [[3]]. That puts Reason solidly in the second tier of sources while Jacobian is straddling the fence between second and third tier [[4]]. Springee (talk) 13:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

The comparison to Reason is apt. I'd hesitate to use either as sources for factual claims about anything political. If it is used, statements should be attributed in text to the author and Jacobin. There was a Columbia School of Journalism article on Jacobin [5], but unfortunately it's entirely about the business aspect and the novelty of a successful socialist magazine, and has absolutely nothing to say on its accuracy or fact-checking, which is what we care about. Jacobin is very open about their POV, and while bias in sources isn't a deal-breaker, it does raise some red flags. I haven't seen any evidence they're regularly making stuff up, but this is a fairly young publication with an unproven track record and a clear political agenda. It should be used with caution, especially when it comes to political BLPs. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 14:25, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

I would also compare with Reason, but I also argued that it was a mistake to rate Reason as generally reliable, for similar reasons. (t · c) buidhe 22:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Left like Reason is right ie not really that partisan. I think Jacobin is fine. Selfstudier (talk) 10:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I also agree with the yellow classification and the sort of language Tayi Arajakate suggests, although it lacks the specialist knowledge and specialist investigative rigour of SPLC. I would say it is most reliable for niche areas that mainstream media might miss (e.g. trade union disputes, left history) and least reliable for controversial US and geopolitical political topics where it should be seen mainly as a source of less noteworthy opinions. As a UK reader, I would add that its UK/Europe articles tend to be ill-informed and fringey. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:00, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the past discussions & evidence presented, I'd say Jacobin is generally reliable, as long as it's used with attribution whenever possible. Many other outlets that contain alot of (often unlabeled) commentary & opinion, such as Slate, The Economist, Le Monde diplomatique, & Foreign Policy are considered generally reliable. And the vast majority of such news sources are biased in some noticeable way or another. I also wonder what exactly 'marginally reliable' would entail here, as sources labeled as such, like E! News, Business Insider, and Vice Media are still widely cited (& in some cases, even defended, such as for example Vice on the MGTOW article). Donkey Hot-day (talk) 08:48, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

This discussion is quickly moving from a review/closing statement of the previous thread into another discussion in its own right. A few questions: 1) Should we open an actual discussion again on Jacobin? It seems some people may have additional thoughts. 2) Should we ask for a formal close of the previous discussion? Jlevi (talk) 21:04, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

If we need two significant discussions, might as well turn this into the second one, no? I would like to know the consensus on Jacobin.Selfstudier (talk) 12:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

This looks more like a WT:RSP discussion than an RSN one. It's interesting how we now view an RSP entry as a trophy to demonstrate a source's significance. The whole point of RSP is to document sources with multiple discussions so that editors do not have to read multiple RSN discussions for an overall impression. If there has only been one significant discussion on a source, searching for it in the RSP archives will get all you need. Discussing the reliability for the sake of discussion ... is not very helpful. feminist (talk) 13:55, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Think it is working in both directions, right or wrong. Absence of an entry is probably being used as indicator of unreliability.Selfstudier (talk) 15:27, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

That sounds so stupid. If only one discussion exists, the consensus on the source is the consensus in that discussion. feminist (talk) 16:16, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm no expert on the ins and outs of procedure, Tayi Arajakate said up above If you want its addition on RSP, it would require either a RfC or at least two significant discussions (see WP:RSPCRITERIA). There is at present one significant discussion, RSP shouldn't be used as an indiscriminate listing of sources. So is that right? Selfstudier (talk) 19:14, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

The problem is not that their is a lack of consensus but that if it has only been discussed once then it is likely not being used enough to warrant an RSP entry. I think, however, that it is worth noting certain sources that are rarely discussed but are worth considering for an alternative (but still generally reliable) perspective (Reason/Jacobin) or for very reliable information (eg Reuters has never had a major discussion but still has a glowing RSP). ~ El D. (talk to me) 10:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

The magazine exists to provide a left-wing perspective and to give in depth coverage of stories of interest to the Left. Opinion pieces no matter where published are considered unreliable per New organizations. That makes sense because opinion pieces rely on mainstream media for their facts. It makes more sense to use the original sources. Their original reporting, while reliable, is usually best avoided because we have to establish weight before including in articles. So I wouldn't use their current article about how the 1992 crime bill was developed because it hasn't received sufficient coverage. Where publications such as Jacobin are useful is in coverage of niche areas, such as what left-wing organizations are doing. TFD (talk) 04:25, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:NEWSORG doesn't just baldly say that opinion pieces are unreliable afaics. I guess what you mean is they are not generally reliable for statements of fact in WP voice, right? I would have thought some opinions count for a lot, depending on whether the giver is good for it or not.Selfstudier (talk) 13:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I hesitate to consider Jacobin "generally reliable" for statements of fact, because the source inappropriately blurs news reporting and opinion. For example, this article entitled Bernie Won Iowa presented "Bernie Sanders won Iowa" as a statement of fact despite the contest being won by Pete Buttigieg. Likewise, this article entitled The Corporate Media’s War Against Bernie Sanders Is Very Real presents the opinion of Jacobin writer Branko Marcetic as fact. feminist (talk) 15:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the first article you mention it states the facts correctly (Bernie won the popular vote - which at the time he did, Bernie was drawing in terms of national delegates - which at the time he was [6], and that Buttigieg was winning in terms of state delegate percentages). Now as a Brit I don't entirely understand what a Caucus is but given that Sanders and Butigiege were drawn on the figure that has a legal impact (delegates) calling him the winner on the grounds that he won the popular vote seems entirely reasonable and honest to me.

In terms of the second story, it is a case of WP:HEADLINES, we never say that headlines are a source regardless of how reliable we feel the newspaper is. I would not be surprised to see stories worded in a similar way in The Economist or another news magazine which we view as reliable. Indeed I would say that news magazines tend to be better than newspapers even if they have occasionally idiosyncratic definitions of 'winning' (such as in Jacobin) or 'coup' (such as in The Economist). ~ El D. (talk to me) 11:50, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

See, this shows how Jacobin wilfully misrepresents how the Iowa caucuses work. By interposing their own opinion on how the system should work (popular vote) over how the system actually works (state delegates), the reader is left with a false impression on the state of the race. The article presents "Bernie won Iowa" as fact but then justifies it as the author's opinion. No, that's not how news reporting works.

It's not reasonable to call Bernie a winner based on a metric that does not matter (popular vote); if the perception of a reader unfamiliar with American politics is that popular vote is key, a news article should at least not promote this wrong impression. To use a UK comparison, a party can lose the popular vote yet gain control of the government: just win enough seats in the House of Commons. I would have no issue if this article were presented as a straight opinion piece with the author arguing that Bernie should be treated as the winner instead, but this is not the case here. feminist (talk) 05:25, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

It strikes me as strange that this works by focusing on 'state delegates' as opposed to national delegates. Winning, say the presidency or a majority in The House of Commons in spite of losing the popular vote has meaningful real-world impacts. As does having fewer national delegates in spite of a popular vote victory. State delegates, by contrast, seems to be an arbitrary internal number that reflects neither what people are thinking (the popular vote) or what will actually happen (national delegates). ~ El D. (talk to me) 10:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I took the title of the first article simply as a hook for a (quite interesting) discussion on the ins and outs of the Iowa system. Admittedly if you are the sort of person that just reads headlines you might be misled but hopefully WP editors are made of better stuff. Fwiw, my personal opinion is we are going to see more of this type of writing in the future, people want opinion/analysis along with their news intake and again, we must trust editors to pick apart the wheat from the chaff.Selfstudier (talk) 10:47, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:HEADLINES does discard the second one, but the first states Bernie Sanders won Iowa in the article text. Now I don't believe that there is a law or democratic party policy saying "the winner of Iowa is the person with the most state delegates" as such I believe that it is perfectly legitimate to declare someone the winner on the grounds that they drew on the thing that actually matters (national delegates) and won the popular vote as opposed to an arbitrary internal number. ~ El D. (talk to me) 19:00, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

How can you read that article and think it's a factual reporting of news? It's not. It's a mixture of some facts, wishful thinking, and a stump speech for Sanders. The 2020 Democratic Iowa Caucus was a mess, and lots of the reporting at the time was muddled and confused, but this article is one of the worst I've seen. At the beginning the author says that Sanders was projected to win more state delegates, which ended up being incorrect. That's fine, projections turn out to be wrong. But she also says that Sanders is tied with Buttigieg in national delegates. She acted as if the preliminary results and projections available at the time were final, even though she was clearly aware at the time of publishing that the count wasn't finalized (Buttigieg ended up winning not only slightly more state delegates, but also 14 of Iowa's pledged national delegates, while Sanders won 12). Saying "I think we should call Sanders the winner because he won the popular vote" is an opinion. Saying "Sanders is tied with Buttigieg in national delegates" is dishonest reporting: a prediction disguised as established fact. And there's nothing on the site informing the reader this is just one person's opinion. Anyone who relied on this reporting would come away less informed about the outcome of the caucus than if they had read nothing at all. The more of their articles I read, the more certain I am that the entire publication should be treated as purely opinion, not a suitable source for factual claims. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

The 2 articles presented are not exactly strong cases for ranking Jacobin 'yellow' instead of 'green'...unless of course we start doing the same for other magazine-type outlets which also do not have separate news & opinion sections, like Slate for instance (which is no stranger to controversial material). On the Sanders issue, I can also reference a reputed outlet like The Economist as also having published unlabeled contentious commentary (in the opposite end of the spectrum), but it'd only be one of many examples from 'green'-rated magazines. And I'm not seeing secondary sources on why Jacobin is not 'reliable', I thought Wikipedia policy discouraged people from using primary sources & opinions? Donkey Hot-day (talk) 19:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I tend to agree with it not being reliable for factual claims because of the mixing of fact with opinion, it's not a newspaper. Someone said "partisan magazine, generally reliable for facts, attribute opinion, check for due weight" and that seems about right. Someone wanted this on rsp, I think with this discussion and the previous we should be able to manage that, right? As I said, I think we are seeing more and more of this sort of reporting; seems eventually we will be attributing everything and personally, I don't mind that.Selfstudier (talk) 12:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand. You say "I agree with it not being reliable for factual claims", but you want its RSP entry to say "generally reliable for facts"? I am absolutely opposed to that. It's not "generally reliable for facts", because its articles present the authors' arguments and opinions as if they were facts. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I get that you are opposed, I don't agree with you though because mixing facts with opinions is not the same as getting facts wrong. If everyone was agreed, I assume we wouldn't need a second discussion at all, right? Selfstudier (talk) 19:16, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

• I would consider Jacobin yellow due to subject bias. And I honestly would not consider The Intercept green, but yellow as well. Especially when it comes to scientific topics, where it frequently treads the line toward promoting pseudoscience. Particularly on the topic of Genetically modified foods where it has promoted some strongly debunked sources before. Silverseren^C 18:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Silver seren, mind sharing an example of GMO-woo promotion? I see one or two critiques on the site, but their mostly from an economic perspective, rather than a 'scary scary chemicals' perspective. Don't want to derail the Jacobin conversation, but it would be valuable to see some examples of what you're mentioning if possible. Thanks! Jlevi (talk) 22:52, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

• Yellow Jacobin is obviously a publication that approaches topics from a leftist perspective. I'd consider it "generally reliable for facts", as it's clear, despite them not categorizing articles as such, what is a fact and what is opinion. Moreover, the case studied above is entirely unconvincing that the article is actually stating that Sanders is unambiguously the winner. Despite this, obvious care needs to be taken to ensure that the facts reported don't constitute undue weight, given the obvious leftist POV of the magazine. Acebulf ^{(talk | contribs)} 02:21, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

One additional detail that I haven't seen mentioned yet: opinion is much heavier from in-house employees who tend to write more of the breaking-news, politically-charged material. Examples: Luke Savage, David Sirota, and Meagan Day. Still obvious when it's opinion vs. reporting from them. Jlevi (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

RFC: "Jihad Watch", should it be deprecated as a source?

Should "Jihad Watch" as a source be deprecated?

Apparently this has never had a formal RFC to actually deprecate it, though the previous discussion in April 2020 [7] seemed to indicate a clear consensus that it should be deprecated. IHateAccounts (talk) 00:37, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

• Why? Is someone trying to cite it as if it is reliable? (t · c) buidhe 03:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I saw this edit by @LaundryPizza03: [8]. I looked back to the last discussion [9] and it seemed pretty firm towards deprecation, and yes, it still seems to be used for citations [10]. IHateAccounts (talk) 05:43, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@Buidhe:Also I note that your response in April 2020 was "It's not The Daily Stormer, but not reliable either. Deprecate because of problems with accuracy.". IHateAccounts (talk) 05:47, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Support There was near-unanimous support for deprecation in the last discussion, and as noted by MarioGom (talk · contribs) in that discussion, various RS have described Jihad Watch as propagating anti-Muslim conspiracy theories. Also blacklist, per IHateAccounts' findings. There are 320 pages that link to Jihad Watch, including 38 articles that use it as a source. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:06, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

• Really? This is getting silly. If we have to have a formal RfC for every obviously shit source out there, this will be a never-ending task. The RSP initiative is in danger of becoming an attempt to legislate WP:CLUE. Alexbrn (talk) 09:49, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• Really? I think Alexbrn is spot on. Why would we bother for a source that isn't being used. This again is a problem with the way deprecation has evolved from a tool for a very specific case into something that seems to come up every time someone sees something they don't like. I would suggest this is closed as unnecessary. Springee (talk) 14:06, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• Please withdraw this. Under normal circumstances I'd just close this, but because you've put a formal RFC tag on it it needs to waste our time for 30 days unless you withdraw it. Deprecation is a tool for a few, very limited, situations in which there's a source which we deem unreliable but which has the appearances of a legitimate publication or website and consequently people try to cite it in good faith. If someone is seriously trying to cite something called "Jihad Watch" as a legitimate source, that's a competence issue not a matter for RS/N; we don't need a formal RFC for this any more than we need a formal RFC on whether Star Trek is a documentary. ‑ Iridescent 14:17, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

  I believe it would do a disservice to Wikipedia if I were to withdraw this RFC. Per my reasons and those by LaundryPizza03 stated above, the reasons stated by Hemiauchenia below, and the fact that the site is used as a source on multiple WP:BLPs currently. IHateAccounts (talk) 18:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

  If it's used as a source (on a BLP or otherwise) for anything that seems even slightly dodgy, you should remove it -- neither deprecation nor an RfC is necessary for that. --JBL (talk) 23:46, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

• Comment It's already listed as unreliable at Perennial sources. There's no need to deprecate it. TFD (talk) 16:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• Deprecate I think some commenters don't understand how prominent Jihad Watch used to be, it's not just some random conspiracy blog run by a nobody, but a prominent website, associated with the David Horowitz Freedom Center, which publishes the deprecated FrontPage Magazine. Jihad Watch has even drawn comment from one of Pakistan's prime ministers, and its author is described by the SPLC as "one of the most prolific anti-Muslim figures in the United States". The website is currently cited 38 times in article space per jihadwatch.org  . I that stripping out the non-aboutself references to this source is something that needs doing. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:45, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• I have aborted this unnecessary RfC -- the number of possible unusable sources is infinite, they do not need to be run through RfCs one-by-one. Find something useful to do with your time. --JBL (talk) 21:50, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Newslinger: Given that the April 2020 discussion wasn't a formal RfC, can it be used to deprecate the Jihad Watch without going through another discussion, given how strong the concensus was? Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

  The world is not divided between "sources that are usable" and "sources that are deprecated"; there are categories such as "sources that are so clearly unsuitable for basic factual statements that to hold structured discussions about them is a pointless waste of time" and "sources that no one has ever seriously proposed to use to source anything" and "sources that are already listed as generally unreliable at WP:RSP". Absent a clear need, the world is not made better by formally deprecating things in these categories -- running an RfC to confirm an existing and unchallenged consensus is a pointless waste of time. --JBL (talk) 23:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@JayBeeEll: I said exactly the same thing during the Zero Hedge deprecation RfC at which time Zero Hedge had around 20 Wikipedia citations which I felt was really more about making a point rather than a useful source deprecation. The real need is to strip out non-aboutself references to Jihad Watch, which I have done to several citations already. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:49, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

• Deprecate, if it isn't absolutely clear yet. I note the associated FrontpageMag is expressly deprecated - David Gerard (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

  It is absolutely clear, and that's why I've removed the RfC tag, again. --JBL (talk) 14:33, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

• Comment, if this site is being repeatedly spammed across article and there is indisputable consensus that it is generally unreliable, shouldn't this just be referred to WT:BLIST? Tayi Arajakate _Talk 10:55, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, of course, this RfC is a waste of time, which is why I've removed the tag again. IHA, please notice how almost everyone is saying the same thing. --JBL (talk) 14:33, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

  @JBL Hi, IHA's adopter here. I have been silently watching this RFC in order to provide offwiki feedback. I was not planning on making any comment to avoid accusations of canvassing or tag teaming, etc. However, I feel the need to say, as an outside observer, that it is incredibly clear that people are not saying the same thing here. Some people are saying it shouldn't be depreciated, and other people are saying it should. Both sides agree it's a bad source, but I still see a good faith disagreement as to what to do about it.
  If you have an alternative means for IHA to get the result that they want (ie. depreciation, blacklisting, edit-filtering, or auto-reverting), then please feel free to suggest that. Until then, IHA seems to be following the only method laid out within Wikipedia:Deprecated sources to achieve their desired outcome. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

  I concur that it's a reasonable RFC to raise here, and ask that the RFC tag not be removed again. We've seen before (e.g. Mail on Sunday) when an apparently-gratuitous RFC had to be run, just because some people insisted the obviously terrible source closely associated with an already deprecated source was great actually and kept putting it in. If we have to nail this one down, we might as well - David Gerard (talk) 19:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

  So far, there is a clear consensus among the people who have participated in this RfC that it should never have been opened, and zero people arguing that Jihad Watch is an acceptable source (which is, of course, further evidence that an RfC is not needed). The situation of the Mail on Sunday is completely incomparable in all respects. If a couple of you want to jerk yourselves off to the accomplishment of officially deprecating a source that no competent editor would ever use or defend, I guess I can't stop you, but it's an utterly idiotic waste of the time of everyone. MJL, maybe you can explain to your mentee that they should not edit war and not waste community time and also learn what the hell a personal attack is. Please no one ping me back to this discussion. --JBL (talk) 20:15, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

• Withdraw this While Jihad Watch is in no way an acceptable source, we only deprecate sources that are cited enough by editors to be a problem. Compared to Newsmax or Occupy Democrats Jihad Watch is far less prominent. I would not be against blacklisting the source. funplussmart (talk) 19:39, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
• Deprecate It is currently being used in BLPs such as Hani Ramadan and we should deprecate. There's no need for it to drag this out any longer. Spudlace (talk) 00:35, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
• Deprecate per comments above and last discussion. User:JayBeeEll, instead of disruptively removing the RfC, how about getting it blacklisted if you don't think this RfC is necessary. Doug Weller talk 11:13, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

  @Doug Weller:, I have nothing more to add here. --JBL (talk) 12:44, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• Withdraw-- I fail to see who is actually trying to insert "Jihad Watch" into an article? It's currently listed in only about 30 articles, mostly for aboutself reasons. Unless there is widespread abuse, deprecation is clearly not needed since Jihad Watch is already listed as unreliable at WP:RSP. Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 10:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
• Withdraw per Alexbrn and Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 10:55, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
• Bad RfC. Doesn't allow for context and point to disputes about diffs. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:36, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
• Deprecate blatant propaganda site. Should be removed from wherever it is used. Walrus Ji (talk) 11:04, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
• Bad RfC Who really use it? --Shrike (talk) 17:10, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
• Deprecate -- not a usable source. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:16, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Requesting Closure

I have placed a closure request for this RFC. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Al Jazeera on Middle Eastern and Jewish issues more generally

Apparently Al Jazeera has falsely reported that Israel opened dams to flood Palestine, and had posted a video which promotes a Holocaust conspiracy theory. Should Al Jazeera be regarded as unreliable more generally for topics relating to the Middle East and the Jews? feminist (talk) free Hong Kong 15:06, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

All sources make good-faith errors in reporting things, and all sources do have occasional errors in judgement. Perfection is not required, but rather a commitment to truthful reporting. Al Jazeera pulled the video, according to the exact source you provided, which means that they recognized their mistake, and are willing to make corrections for it, a hallmark of a reliable source. --Jayron32 15:14, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Since Al Jazeera retracted the report I don’t see a big issue here. All sources will be wrong some of the time and all sources are also more likely to be wrong the closer a story drifts to their ideological blindspots. What separates the wheat from the chaff is whether or not an outlet retracts stories and corrects errors. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:06, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

As others have noted, it is generally reliable not always reliable. Both of these stories were corrected promptly (and in the case of the later the producers suspended). The dam myth was also circulated by AFP, a reputable news wire, and indeed in its article on the subject [11] CAMERA points to another inaccurate article produced by... Haaretz. The Al Jazeera, the AFP, and Haaretz are all RSes. Corrections are indeed generally seen as evidence of reliability. Al Jazeera probably shouldn't be used for Qatar but besides that I see little to no problem with it. ~ El D. (talk to me) 11:58, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Al Jazeera is clearly partisan source regarding the conflict. It also funded by the government which is not democratically elected so in my view there are similar to Russia Today and other propaganda outlets that funded by government in autocratic regimes --Shrike (talk) 15:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

That's a broad generalization by Shrike. I agree with El komodos drago that even reliable sources sometimes make mistakes. Al-Jazeera should be given credit for promptly withdrawing the story.VR _talk 17:34, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Vice regent,What is wrong with what I said? Its not funded by the goverment?The government is not autocratic? Shrike (talk) 18:32, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with your implication that "sponsored by non-democratic government" = unreliable, "sponsored by democratic government" = reliable. What does that have to do with fact-checking? Trump was democratically elected yet has been accused of making lots of false and misleading statements. The only thing I'd caution with Al-Jazeera is when we're talking about the monarchy of Qatar itself. Other than that, I'd consider them generally reliable including on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They can't be considered any more biased on that topic than newspapers located inside of Israel like Haaretz.VR _talk 15:30, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

In addition to Vice regent's point, all news sources are owned by somebody, and that somebody is capable of influencing the editorial line and contents of the publication. States, private individuals and private entities have interests which may bias content, and this fact should be taken into account when citing any source at all. Boynamedsue (talk) 19:08, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Two retractions/corrections. 1 in 2015 and 1 in 2019. This looks like evidence of reliability, not unreliability. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:52, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• The Al Jazeera is unreliable and highly pro-Sunni biased, pro-Arab in the Middle East-related topics and pro-Bosniak in the Balkans topics.--WEBDuB (talk) 13:23, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

RealClear media

Moved from WP:RS/P

I'm wondering about the status of RealClear media, IOW RealClearPolitics (RCP) and RealClearInvestigations (a redirect to RCP). My initial impression is that they are aggregators, but also with own, very biased, content. All I find is this thread opened by User:JzG in November 2019:

• Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_278#RealClear_media

Valjean (talk) 17:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I just noticed this use at our conspiracy theory article Russia investigation origins counter-narrative:

Jeanine Pirro, a long-time friend of Trump, described Mueller, FBI Director Christopher Wray (a Trump appointee), former FBI Director James Comey and other current/former FBI officials as a "criminal cabal," saying "There is a cleansing needed in our FBI and Department of Justice—it needs to be cleansed of individuals who should not just be fired, but who need to be taken out in cuffs."

Here we have a combination of types of sources. All content at Wikipedia (other than WP:ABOUTSELF) must come from RS, even to document the most ludicrous pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, etc. If something is not mentioned in RS, it does not have the due weight to be mentioned here. Period. That makes this use of RCP, if it is deemed unreliable, very dubious. The NYTimes and Salon should be enough. -- Valjean (talk) 17:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

• Definitely Unreliable. Doesn't clearly mark the difference between opinion and news content on the columns it publishes, and the rest is just aggregation (including a number of questionable sources like the Washington Examiner). For instance, "Donald the Dragon Slayer"[12] today is labeled as "Commentary" and not listed in its "Editorials" section. IHateAccounts (talk) 18:43, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

  What's wrong with labeling an opinion piece as "Commentary"? Commentary literally means "expression of opinion". feminist (talk) 13:50, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• If we're going to discuss RC's reliability, it should be done at WP:RSN rather than here unless there have been additional threads on the matter already. -- Calidum 19:28, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree. I'll move this there, so feel free to continue there. -- Valjean (talk) 23:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Sources

• Generally Reliable--RCP has a very strong editorial board, with many award-winning journalists and writers: [13], and the site has a rigours fact-checking process: [14]. They are most well-known for their robust polling, which is published in numerous high-quality sources: The Guardian, Reuters, CNBC, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal. Likewise, Real Clear Investigations also seems to be referenced by reliable sources such as The Washington Post and NPR. RCP & RCI aggregates from different sources, though they do seem to have their own columnists. News vs. opinion is always clearly marked. Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 03:05, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
  • While it's an interesting offering, the RCP Fact Check Review is a review of fact checks done by other organisations. The existence of this review doesn't add a lot of credibility to their own content. — Charles Stewart (talk) 14:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
• Judge by WP:RSOPINION. RCP is mainly known as an American conservative-leaning news and poll aggregator. It is mainly used on Wikipedia for its election predictions, the same way we use the Daily Kos (RSP entry) for its election predictions despite its unreliability. It also sees some use for its opinion pieces, which is usually appropriate depending on the identity of the opinion piece's author. Overall I don't think RCP publishes much straight news, if at all, so I would treat it as similar to Reason (RSP entry), The Spectator (RSP entry) or The Weekly Standard (RSP entry). feminist (talk) 13:38, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
  • As for this specific page, it appears to simply include transcripts of a video. Authenticity is not in doubt when you can actually listen to the video. But why not just cite Fox News directly? feminist (talk) 13:41, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
• Unreliable - This is primarily an opinion site and partisan aggregator, not a reliable news source. It cannot reasonably be considered a RS. Go4thProsper (talk) 03:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
• Unreliable - Original material is not factually reliable, and aggregated material may not be accurately attributed. The Wall Street Journal has reported that RealClearPolitics for two years has been a significant source of links to Russia Today stories, and the provenance of the RT headlines was obscured. While much of the aggregated material may be reliable, it should be cited to the reliable source, not to RealClear. John M Baker (talk) 00:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
• Reliable They have a gatekeeping process demonstrated by multiple contributors organized in an editorial hierarchy; a physical presence by which they can be held liable for libel; and RS consider them reliable as evidenced by the fact their original reporting has been sourced by Reuters [15], Government Executive [16], Albuquerque Journal [17], CBS News [18], TIME [19], CNN [20] etc., etc. Both the current executive editor and the current White House correspondent are separate recipients [21], [22] of the Aldo Beckman Award for Journalistic Excellence from the White House Correspondents Association which is pretty much the Oscar for White House coverage and its recipient is elected by WHCA member journalists. If RC is not reliable, we need to rethink our standards of reliability.
  That said, stories that are simply aggregated by RCP are not implicitly reliable, opinion / commentary columns are not reliable for anything other than the opinion of the writer per WP:RSOPINION, and extraordinary claims should be credited to the source and not presented in WP's voice regardless of the reliability of the source (at least when reported only by a single source). Chetsford (talk) 04:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
• Unreliable. RealClear Media hosted (and may still host) a secret Facebook page promoting far-right memes and extremist conspiracy theories. This family of websites is mainly opinion pieces and aggregation of pieces published elsewhere. As for their sites that claim to do original reporting, their "RealClearInvestigations" site is backed by right-wing foundations and published an article supposedly revealing the identity of a protected whistleblower—something that reputable/mainstream news organizations chose not to do, because it would endanger the whistleblower and violate anti-retaliation principles. And as the Wall Street Journal reported in Oct. 2020, the aggregator has consistently funneled readers to Russian propaganda, while obscuring the source from browsing readers. All of this points to clear unreliability. Neutrality^talk 19:33, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

The WSJ story you site describes RealClear as "mainstream" and their poll average as "famous." Furthermore, I am unaware of any requirement that an RS refrain from publishing the identity of a whistleblower. For comparison, is the NYT unreliable because they blew a CIA program to catch terrorists via their finances [23]? Obviously that put lives at risk. Meanwhile, the NYT, which routinely advocates for restrictions on oil drilling in the USA, is owned in considerable part by Carlos Slim, who obviously benefits from such restrictions. In sum, you are condemning RealClear for things we appear to accept from other sources. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

• Unreliable for anything except perhaps its attributed polling averages (which seems to be the only thing it is really well-known for, looking over sources and usage, and which is probably better cited to a WP:SECONDARY source anyway.) Outside of that it is largely noteworthy as an aggregator; and there's no reason we would cite them rather than the sources they aggregate. For the (largely opinion) original stuff they do post, there seems to be little distinction between opinion and fact. More importantly, they have in particular been publishing false material about the 2020 election and surrounding events recently, which is a definite strike against their reliability. Generally speaking I don't think it makes sense to use a handful of passing mentions as an argument for WP:USEBYOTHERS when the NYT just wrote an entire in-depth teardown essentially saying how unreliable it has become. EDIT: I would say that per the NYT source it is particularly unreliable after 2017 because of this: Interviews with current and former Real Clear staff members, along with a review of its coverage and tax filings, point to a shift to the right within the organization in late 2017, when the bulk of its journalists who were responsible for straight-news reporting on Capitol Hill, the White House and national politics were suddenly laid off. The shift to the right would be fine on its own, but firing their reporting team isn't. And that led to the other issues the article identifies - inaccurate coverage of the 2020 election, unsubstantiated or false stories, stories that raise ethical concerns, and so on. None of this sounds like the write-up of a source we could use as an WP:RS; it appears they gutted their news team sometime in 2017 and switched to basically pumping out spin, with increasing disregard for fact-checking or accuracy. --Aquillion (talk) 10:48, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
• Unreliable for the reasons explained by John M Baker, Neutrality, and Aquillion. They do seem to be known for polling averages more than anything else, which also leads to a WP:DUE concern; how often is a poll average, of which there are many, actually worth writing about? In that case, we'd be turning to secondary sources anyway, as Aquillion suggested. Less-than-stellar publications are sometimes the ones to "break" a story (because it was leaked to them, or because they were listening to the police scanner, or whatever). When more solid reporting confirms the story and mentions where it first appeared, that doesn't necessarily count in favor of the marginal publication's reliability for our purposes. XOR'easter (talk) 01:51, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Exactly this. The National Enquirer broke the John Edwards extramarital affair, but that doesn't mean the Enquirer is suddenly reliable either, all it means is a stopped clock happened to briefly coincide with the time of day. IHateAccounts (talk) 15:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
  • How true. I subscribe to and follow over 4,000 journalists and media sources of all types, including the use of many Google Alerts, so I see what is written by the most unreliable of sources. For example, The Daily Caller often has "news" details that is cutting edge (IOW on the wrong side of the knife...), but those details are not yet found elsewhere, so I do not use TDC as a source or even mention those details. I wait until RS pick up the story. TDC will usually frame these interesting details in a misleading story that misleads its readers, and we shouldn't send readers to such trash. When the details appear in RS, the setting is more neutral and factual, and we can then use those sources as documentation of those interesting details. They now have the needed due weight and proper sourcing. So be patient and wait for RS to cover such stuff. -- Valjean (talk) 16:21, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
• Reliable per User:Chetsford. Adoring nanny (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
• Unreliable, completely, given their track record of demonstrably false claims, fringe opinion pieces and the like. One cannot even call it "reporting" anymore, given the mass layoffs of actual journalists in 2017. Zaathras (talk) 01:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
• Comment We have a lot of people declaring "not factually reliable" as an undemonstrated assertion. The standards for RS are the same as our general standards; if RS consider them reliable, they are reliable. We have demonstrated that RS consider RC reliable by the fact that their original reporting is widely, and regularly cited by RS. We have demonstrated that RS consider RC reliable by the fact that their journalists have received some of the most significant awards given by and from the journalistic craft. Unless we have RS widely declaring RC to be unreliable, our individual assessments of RC is irrelevant. So far only one source has been offered which sort-of hints at that; we don't blacklist an entire media outlet because of one false positive - otherwise we'd be non-RS'ing the New York Times over the Caliphate podcast scandal that just broke or Rolling Stone for A Rape on Campus. All other arguments appear to rely on personal analysis. Content analysis is research and personal content analysis is OR. A policy-based argument, supported by sources, has been offered demonstrating reliability. The same has not been offered demonstrating unreliability. Chetsford (talk) 05:54, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Is this really the standard? Then the assessment should also take into account reporting from the New York Times, which writes that, during the Trump administration, “Real Clear became one of the most prominent platforms for elevating unverified and reckless stories about the president’s political opponents,” and that it ran “stories that most other news outlets, including some that lean conservative, would not touch because the details were unsubstantiated or publication of them would raise ethical concerns.” John M Baker (talk) 04:47, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
    • Yes, we definitely should take that into account. But taking a report about a source into account is different than giving that report veto power. As I said, above, the ability to find one or two instances of RS questioning a source should not be treated as some gotcha! reason to deprecate a source. If that were all it took, we would have no sources left. Here [24], WIRED reports "News organizations, including The New York Times, have reported the story without trying to get to the bottom of it, or even finding out basic information such as where or when the alleged party took place."; here [25] Rolling Stone is found liable for a demonstrably fake story; here [26] The Intercept writes that the Washington Post published a story about hacking that is "demonstrably false" . In each of these cases, we have far more evidence of RS considering the NYT, Rolling Stone, and WaPo reliable than unreliable. Similarly, as demonstrated in my !vote, the same applies to RCP. Chetsford (talk) 14:45, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
      • But the New York Times article is not comparable to the claims that the New York Times, Rolling Stone, and Washington Post published individual false stories (not that I think that the linked critiques of the NY Times and the Post are particularly compelling). Rather, the Times has provided an overall assessment of RCP's current reliability, and it has done so in terms that are utterly inconsistent with finding a source to be reliable. That should weigh far more heavily than individual examples where an established reliable source chose to refer to RCP uncritically. Nor do I think that the test of reliability should be the treatment given by reliable sources. If that were the case, we would certainly have to reinstate the Daily Mail, which just in the past few days has been cited by The Independent (Dec. 31, 2020), The Times (London) (Dec. 29, 2020), The Times (London) (Dec. 29, 2020, again), The Sunday Telegraph (Dec. 27, 2020), and the Kansas City Star (Dec. 24, 2020), among others (all examples from NewsBank). The test should be whether a source is in fact reliable, based on reported facts, and not on whether media sources sometimes choose to use it without further examination. John M Baker (talk) 21:30, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Xinhua News Agency

Per Sun (2015), "When Mao told Xinhua to ‘take control of the earth’ and engage in international communication, his premise was clear: that the media were the propaganda tools of the CCP... In the 1990s, Jiang Zemin’s numerous external propaganda policy directives again re-affirmed the official line that Xinhua was the ‘mouth and throat of the Party, charged with the dual responsibility of both internal and external propaganda, the mission of both being to promote the CCP and Chinese government’s policies’."

Per Brady (2015), "In early 2009, Beijing announced that it would invest ¥45 billion (roughly US$7.25 billion) into its main media outlets in order to strengthen its international news coverage and global presence. As part of this campaign, known as “big propaganda” (da waixuan), Xinhua News Service increased its number of overseas bureaus from 100 to 186. That same year, the Global Times (a popular tabloid with an international focus owned by People’s Daily) launched an English-language edition. CCTV International also began broadcasting in Arabic and Russian, and in 2010 rebranded itself as CCTV News."

It appears that Xinhua, the Global Times, and CCTV International (aka CGTN) are all part of the same propaganda campaign that the CCP has used to increase Beijing’s global presence. Why is it that the Global Times and CCTV International/CGTN are now deprecated while Xinhua remains largely unchallenged?

Normchou (talk) 19:02, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Xinhua in general has a higher standard than CGTN/CCTV and Global Times. One blind spot is to misinformation/disinformation which originates within the official Party/State ecosystem, for example Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic#Kazakh virus. I would say additional considerations apply, they’re fine for statements about the Chinese government’s position on an issue but I would not in general use them for objective statements of fact and I would *never* use them for the BLP of a non-Chinese government official. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. It would be helpful it if you could provide some corroboration and analysis for the statement that Xinhua generally has a higher standard than the other two outlets. Normchou (talk) 20:03, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

You are west centric. Would you do the same for Chinese official? (i. e. Never used western reports for BLP of Chinese official.) The Master (talk) 03:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Xinhua is a news wire that produces factual and broadly unbiased (in terms of content, biased in terms of story selection) content largely for other news organisations. These fall into two camps: foreign news sources that use Xinhua to complement their reporting (e.g AP News [27], BBC [28], The Guardian [29] and it's a partner of AFP [30]); and Chinese government sites that spin the stories for propaganda. Xinhua has attracted some moderate praise in RSes in the past [31] [32] and its output is generally best described as boring (China's industrial output further expands in November is literally the current second to top story on the business page). In recent times it has been more roundly criticised (this article from the Guardian is a good example. It is also hilarious) but as far as I know no one has characterized it as inaccurate. ~ El D. (talk to me) 22:49, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems that the issue can be boiled down to the reporting of factual content, and how (ir)replaceable Xinhua is in that regard. My own observation has been that headlines such as China's industrial output further expands in November are almost always available via a primary source such as the National Bureau of Statistics of China's website. Normchou (talk) 00:26, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Half the things Xinhua reports are "this subway opened" or "this power plant went online" or "this port moved xx% more containers than last year" which don't seem terribly controversial. Primary sources are incredibly hard to navigate and translate if you don't know Chinese. Xinhua's news has clean and precise english, which makes it easier for editors and readers to understand and also fact-check if necessary. Albertaont (talk) 00:33, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I need to point out that, in cases such as "China's industrial output further expands in November" like what Normchou has named above, Xinhua is the primary source just like China's statistics bureau, Xinhua's role is irreplaceable when making such announcements on official statistics and press releases because this is one of the main roles Xinhua was designated for when it was founded. China's new laws, regulations, announcements from Beijing, and so on must be published through Xinhua and no other means. This is a tradition that dates back to telegraph and morse codes, and even until today, important law releases such as Hong Kong's new national security law this July have to involve every other media's journalist nervously refreshing Xinhua's newswire feed. Xinhua is widely cited by other media for official announcements and it dates way back. Some instances that I have noticed include when the Communists established the People's Republic in 1949, or once towards the end of the Cultural Revolution when the New York Times translated Xinhua's announcement into English unaltered. This is not mentioned in Xinhua News Agency's entry, but starting in the early 2000s, Xinhua started to call itself "Xinhua," prior to that, its English name was "New China News Agency," and before the 1990s, "Xinhua" was often romanized as "Hsinhua" or "Hsinhua News Agency." Go to any newspaper archive and look for "Hsinhua," there will be tons of instances of Xinhua's words being cited. When serving as Beijing's "telegraph operator" for announcements, Xinhua is the ultimate primary source.

In addition to El. D, besides AFP, Xinhua also has collaborations and image exchange agreements with AP, Reuters, Japan's Kyodo News Agency, and several more, and Xinhua has been supplying images to the AP since the 70s. On an unrelated note, CCTV/CGTN also has image/video footage exchange agreements with CNN, and you can definitely see CCTV's footage being used on CNN, while CNN is cited as sources on CCTV. Also, I do consider that the Guardian's article on Xinhua is nonsense. That Xinhua's press release which shamelessly praised Xi Jinping is essentially what you would have been expecting from Xinhua. Firstly, on high Chinese officials, Xinhua does release official profiles for them (which may shade negative news or imperfections of them). Secondly, when it comes to Xi Jinping, do except Xinhua praising him like North Korean media praising Kim Jong-un. Thirdly, Xinhua's English service may not run stories of Xi's personality cult as often as its Chinese version, and that's probably what makes the Guardian's journalist surprised, but hell they run tons more of such propaganda stories every day in Chinese and that also includes CCTV on its prime time news program Xinwen Lianbo. Xinhua has been running such stories all the time, and getting surprised by them most likely indicates that the Guardian's journalist needs to consume more Chinese state media to get an idea of how they behave. --Techyan（Talk） 03:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@Techyan: your information is dated, these days CCTV/CGTN are reporting that CNN produces fake news about China such as this piece from January: "By following CNN, we find how they make fake news about Xinjiang”[33] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:08, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Continuing from my remarks above, on domestic stories of China, Xinhua has always been the one praising the government - both Beijing and the locals - although it doesn't mean Xinhua's stories are all fake. Xinhua also rarely does investigative journalism, but its Chinese-languaged, civilian-targeting stories and those which are published on magazines operated by Xinhua can be critical to governments. On February 27, when China's economy started to recover from Covid and there has been few outbreaks outside China, Xinhua praised Shenzhen's economic recovery, but on the same day, another more liberal media National Business Daily saying Shenzhen was slower compared to other cities in recovering. Xinhua and other liberal media drawing opposite conclusions on the same matter is not new - it is something expected, and even encouraged by China's media censors.

Xinhua is the one who praises Beijing in the most traditional and North Korean-like way while passing Beijing's message to the world, and they also do some international coverages; China Daily is the one who focuses mostly on China's domestic affairs and rarely controversial; Global Times (English version) is the tabloid who yelling around; CGTN can be considered as the Chinese equivalent of RT, but CGTN spark far fewer contriversies and falshoods than RT and has fairly good coverages on Africa, while allowing mild criticism on Beijing. This is why it isn't fair to compare Xinhua to Russia's Sputnik, which its main purpose is to spread propaganda, but Xinhua isn't - however, the Global Times is. I'll probably talk about Xinhua's international coverages later. It is naive to assume all of these official media are tightly controlled by the CCP, and everything the media said is subject to their censorship. They need different media to serve different roles. Although, admittedly, I don't have much experience here on English Wikipedia, but just know what you are dealing with, use common sense and existing guidelines such as "Perennial sources," don't fall for obvious craps on China's human rights or Covid conspiracies, and I think Xinhua is perfectly fine. --Techyan（Talk） 03:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

• Added {{reflist talk}} to prevent spoiling my notice below. Feel free to continue talking about the propaganda nature of Xinhua. --Soumya-8974 (he) ^talk _contribs ^subpages 05:07, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
• I think User:Albertaont strikes the right note here. Xinhua is reliable for many topics, though of course they won't be neutral on Chinese politics. They are not even in the same ballpark as tabloids like the Global Times. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:03, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

By the way, this has apparently been discussed before – see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:17, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Ban NYT first because it has been awarded No. 1 in the fake news media list, presented by the president of its country of origin. Discrimination against Chinese is not justified by any sense before banning No. 1 fake news media. --The Master (talk) 13:27, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, Trump awarded NYT as his fake news awards doesn't means the NYT is a fake news website. Although the NYT has some controversies, most of its reports are reliable. Banning the Xinhua also doesn't means we are discriminate against Chinese.--BlackShadowG^★ (talk) 02:02, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

NYT is a left wing proporganda machine in USA and Fox News is the right wing counterpart. Chinese state media is much more reliable then NYT. There is a lot of fake news in NYT. google:fake news new york times site:globaltimes.cn. Finding an excuse to discriminate against the media representing Chinese people is slapping the faces of 1.3 billion people.--The Master (talk) 03:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I think posting random nonsense to RSN is unlikely to convince anyone of your position, and strongly suggests WP:NOTHERE - David Gerard (talk) 18:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

You are nonsense. Stop ad hominem! Chinese state media are much reliable than some media controlled by money groups and aimed at satisfying the bias of its readers. Strongly suggest you to read google:fake news new york times site:globaltimes.cn Interview: Some Western media reporting on China biased, unfair: German sinologist. --The Master (talk) 14:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Chinese state media are like Russian state media, and the state media of many nations. They push propaganda alongside their regular news reporting. They are good enough for ordinary news, but not for political stuff. -- Valjean (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I'm a Chinese Wikipedia user. I'm from Hong Kong, China.

I can't help but participate in the discussion. On the question of the reliability of Xinhua News Agency, as a Chinese national and Wiki user, I think I have a good say in this issue.

Everyone here may have some strange or even bad views on the media in our country. In this regard, I would like to tell everyone here that the Chinese media is not high compared with Western countries in terms of freedom of the press, but there is no doubt about authenticity and effectiveness. Xinhua News Agency has been an official media with a long history. Xinhua opened international affairs in 1940 and has been facing the public for 80 years. Even if the evaluation is mixed, not every news media can satisfy everyone. But its still existence can show that it has its own value.

Xinhua News Agency may be regarded by some as the government's propaganda media, but Xinhua, as the official media, bears the image of China, and the news and news released should be responsible for China's image. I think Xinhua has been able to release effective news.

So Xinhua News Agency is regarded by some people as the propaganda channel of the Chinese government. I can only say that everyone has their own views. But the news and news released by Xinhua News Agency are real and effective. Several Wikipedia users mentioned Xinhua's cooperation and praise with other internationally renowned media, so I don't mention it here. But it is enough to see that Xinhua News Agency is internationally recognizable and a reliable and effective source of use.

I can't represent anyone, but I also pay attention to the news and what happens around me. Edit entries on Chinese Wikipedia. We also need to provide reliable sources. I've always been happy to use Xinhua News Agency as my reference source. So at least I think it works.

（“抱歉，我只能用中文写这一篇回复。这一篇回复是机器翻译，如果有人能将此译为正确的英文版本、让读不懂中文的维基人能够看得懂的话，我将非常感谢。 ”）

（Machine translation,The specific meaning is subject to the Chinese version.Translation:[34]）
-Wiok^{TALK‧Wikipedia-zh} 15:03, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

The above comment from the Chinese Wikipedia editor, Wiok, minds me of the corresponding page of WP:RSP in Chinese[35]. It appears that there was no consensus on whether the Chinese version of Xinhua is a reliable source, either.

由于《新华社》是中华人民共和国官方通讯社，其发表的政治类新闻需要审慎对待，尤其是涉及到与中国大陆相关的负面新闻更要谨慎。對於中華人民共和國的正面新聞或中性新聞，只要不是出於誇大或扭曲（變成正面新聞），新華社可以作為可靠來源。其转载或编译的国外新闻，应尽量用原始出处的新闻替代。
(Since Xinhua News Agency is the official news agency of the People's Republic of China, the political news it publishes needs to be treated with caution, especially when it comes to negative news related to mainland China. For positive or neutral news from the People's Republic of China, Xinhua can be a reliable source as long as it is not exaggerated or distorted (turned into positive news). For foreign news it reproduces or compiles, one should try to replace it with news from the original source.)

It would also be helpful to see Chinese Wikipedians having a discussion again regarding this matter, since the last discussion was in 2014. Normchou ^💬 23:09, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine with Xinhua being a reliable local news source as, even being considered as propaganda service by much Wikimedians, it normally can fulfill the role of a news source provider. But I'm quite weary of political news, particularly in US, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Xinjiang, and anything China had its tooth against. I'm not stating that Xinhua should be outright banned, or as what some users said, completely allowed, but the nature of Xinhua can loosely corresponds to the reliability of RT, or Al Jazeera. English version is better than Chinese version, but may still contain some propaganda or whatever Wikimedians think it as biased. --1233 ( T / C） 15:52, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

You says Xinhua "being a reliable local news source" but not about political news in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Xinjiang. Aren't Hong Kong, Taiwan and Xinjiang part of China? Though Taiwan is yet reunified. For Hong Kong and Xinjiang, do you think Western media being more reliable than Chinese state media?--The Master (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

It should get the same treatment as RT (formerly Russia Today) at WP:RS/P: "There is consensus that RT is an unreliable source, publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated along the lines of the Daily Mail. Many editors describe RT as a mouthpiece of the Russian government that engages in propaganda and disinformation." -- Valjean (talk) 16:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Xinhua is a useful source, especially for everyday news like the examples Albertaont gave above (new metro lines, industrial output, and so on). It's certainly not in the same category as the Daily Mail. —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:18, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Xinhua should be put above medias like NYT and Fox news. It is a state media and has its reputations, unlike western media controlled by interest groups and aims at satisfying the bias of its readers. They only cares about money, that's the difference. Interview: Some Western media reporting on China biased, unfair: German sinologist--The Master (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

@El komodos drago: points out to me Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. Here are some references proving western media are biased in Chinese reports. I list below for you to verify. There is no reason to discriminate agianst Chinese reports before discriminating the biased western reports.

• 江力涵. 美国媒体对华报道偏差形成机理与影响研究[D]. 浙江大学, 2019.
• 张亚兰. 从西方涉华国际舆论中看西方国家对中国的偏见[J]. 视听, 2016 (6): 139-141.
• 高原. 谈西方媒体对华报道的偏差与失真[J]. 新闻战线, 2013 (5): 97-99.
• 吴奇志, 王眉. 西方涉华报道的偏见及成因分析[J]. 中国记者, 2008 (10): 82-83.
• 薛涛, 张荣美. 西方媒体涉华报道中的 “傲慢与偏见”——以两起恐袭事件报道为分析样本[J]. 现代传播: 中国传媒大学学报, 2017 (1): 163-165.
• Commentary: Time for West to get rid of bias and show world the real Hong Kong
• Interview: Western media reports on Hong Kong biased -- German sinologist
• Interview: Some Western media reporting on China biased, unfair: German sinologist
• Opinion: What's really going on in Hong Kong? Time for West to get rid of bias, double standards
• Western media's sustained anti-China bias: Global Times editorial
• Western media loses high ground with biased HK reports
• Pulitzer Prize won't alter Western media’s bias
• Western media reporting on Tibet full of bias--The Master (talk) 14:38, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• You have listed a large number of propagandistic, non-neutral and unreliable sources from Xinhua and Global Times, please stop promoting your anti-western sentiments, it's not helpful.--BlackShadowG^★ (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Please constrain yourself to addressing the argument, declaring a editor to have anti-western sentiments seems irrelevant to the discussion and seems, in my view, to amount to censorship of a political viewpoint. I mean, I agree that editors should approach Xinhua stories on issues where the Chinese government is a stakeholder with the view that is at least biased but can we not be accused of parroting "anti-eastern sentiments" from our government? To avoid this, we must listen to all the opinions from editors and assess the argument's validity per our own policies not simply discard them on grounds that we believe that an editor has "anti-western sentiments". I am sorry if I have sounded too harsh, and I agree with the general thrust of your post but I feel slightly uncomfortable with the general desire to flatly disregard The Master's arguments on here on the grounds that they are Chinese. ~ El D. (talk to me) 18:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

While there is consensus that RT "publishes false or fabricated information", it would be helpful to provide instances of Xinhua doing the same when arguing that they should be treated the same. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 16:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Hey, looking at the sources, I see that the Journal of Democracy is part of the National Endowment for Democracy. While I have no serious reason to doubt the reliability of the article you cite or the journals as a whole, I am somewhat concerned about the link. For context, here is a New York Times article about some of the shady stuff the NED does. [36] ~ El D. (talk to me) 21:01, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• If you want to question the reliability of Journal of Democracy you should start a new section to specifically address that issue. Introducing irrelevant information in terms of WP:RS is unhelpful to the discussion and susceptible to fallacies of the red-herring type. Normchou ^💬 04:36, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I have no good reason to doubt it, I just wanted reasurance that editors had considered the link irrelevant for the purposes of this RSN. ~ El D. (talk to me) 11:36, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Should be depreciated as per reports from The Guardian, Agence France-Presse, NYT, and from evidence of its reporting on Tibet and the Dalai Lama, also noted in these first rate RS. Reliability is directly contrary to being "effective". Furthermore, Xinhua's reports on the capitalist-model economy in Tibet and elsewhere in China cannot be assumed generally reliable either, since the fabrication of reports cannot be assumed to stop with economic reporting. Normchou, depreciation should be applied equally to CCTV, Global Times and to Xinhua. Andreas Philopater, to provide what was suggested: There are numerous examples that Xinhua "publishes false or fabricated information" during the 2008 Tibetan unrest and its aftermath, and continues to currently do the same.

1. Here, the number of Chinese "civilian" deaths is noted as false[37](per translated edits of text), since the only reported deaths of Chinese in Lhasa at that time that I've come across in numerous sources/RS occurred in a building fire, where 4 Chinese died and 1 Tibetan died as well. Also omitted are reports of 140+ Tibetans killed by Chinese forces during the same time period. Here's the NYT covering the same info [38]
2. Another is reported via VOA[39]and the NYT above, where Xinhua blames the Dalai Lama for the spontaneous uprising, a charge disapproved by numerous RS. (I'll refractor in more and better examples.)
3. In 2008, another death might have occurred outside Lhasa, to a policeman in Garze, while here's an AFP via France24 comment about "fabricated" (to use the term above) Xinhua reports[40].
4. Machine gun use in 2008 was not reported by Xinhua, but a report of leaked documents which support the eyewitness statements on machine gun use exists[41] and is reported by RS Tibetan Review[42].
5. In 2009 Barnett also reported on the deaths, and included more due to building fires inside and outside of Lhasa[43] and to shootings by government forces.
6. In 2012, evidence of more Xinhua's fabricated or false reports on political violence by China's govt, again by France24[44].
7. A 2013 report of a France24's reporter being harassed in Paris "mafia style" for editorial content, by Chinese diplomats. (Included as an illustration of the serious nature of Chinese propaganda)[45].
8. In 2014, France24 reports Xinhua's sources are not reliable,Xinhua, which cited the Xinjiang region publicity department in its report,... and that China's public executions are not reported[46].
9. A 2015 Reuters report on China's attack policy on the Dalai Lama, and on Xinhua in "The reincarnation of the Dalai Lama has to be endorsed by the central government, not by any other sides, including the Dalai Lama himself,” Zhu said, according to a March 11 report in the state-run Xinhua news agency.[47]
10. A 2020 NYT detailed opinion article on forced labor system of nomadic peoples in Tibet, which is denied by Chinese government (Xinhua mentioned but paywall popup prevented inspection of lower text area.)[48]
11. In 2018 The Guardian details unreliability, "creative writing", and agenda pushing by Xinhua[49]with a quote that it distinctly pushes "Chinese agenda", and of the govt CCTV and related media, The whole point of pushing that kind of propaganda out is to preclude or preempt decisions that would go against the People’s Republic of China.. Pasdecomplot (talk) 13:41, 25 December 2020 (UTC) (edited 11:23, 26 December 2020 (UTC))

• Xinhua is a good and reliable source and should be retained. It is no less reliable than major Western news sources. Its coverage of China is unmatched by other English language sources. For controversial statements that are not supported by other source, it would be enough to use attribution. Burrobert (talk) 14:12, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
• Declaring Xinhua "good and reliable" makes no difference as declaring RT as the same. Both are controlled by government and echos corresponding government's voices. A media with such influence by an authoritarian government should always leave a question on its credibility. The lack of acceptable public editorial guidelines should also add doubt on its reliability. I'm not stating an outright ban, but should proceed with extra care as reporting in some cases are irreplaceable and would be fine. --1233 ( T / C） 09:34, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
• We just had an RfC on this in September. Why are we having a new informal discussion on the same points? — MarkH₂₁^talk 18:48, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Was wondering the same, it's in RSP and I don't think anything has changed since the assessment there, has it?Selfstudier (talk) 19:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree, and I tried to point this out above. This strikes me as an unnecessary/superfluous discussion given that the RfC was only a few months ago. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:43, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Tibetan Political Review

This discussion is an offshoot of Talk:Nyingchi#Tourism, where Normchou, Esiymbro, and I agreed that the Tibetan Political Review does not appear to be a reliable source. This is disputed by Pasdecomplot on the basis that it has not appeared at RSN yet.

Tibetan Political Review is self-hosted on Google Sites, has no affiliation with any academic publisher, is not listed in major journal indices, has no evidence of academic peer-review, and does not appear to be reviewed or discussed by established RSes (that we could find). It only existed for 7 years and often reads more like a blog than a research journal (e.g. the first article).

As such, it does not qualify under academic and peer-reviewed publications (WP:SOURCE) or reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses (WP:SCHOLARSHIP) and likely falls under has not been vetted by the scholarly community. This is much closer to:

journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view. A claim of peer review is not an indication that the journal is respected, or that any meaningful peer review occurs. Journals that are not peer reviewed by the wider academic community should not be considered reliable, except to show the views of the groups represented by those journals.
— WP:SCHOLARSHIP

Perhaps someone else could shed further light on the usability of Tibetan Political Review though, or draw a broader consensus on its reliability. — MarkH₂₁^talk 12:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC); strike-out editor who didn't comment directly on TPR 02:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• Appears to be a collection of opinion pieces? Run by a poet and a couple of lawyers, so definitely not a scholarly journal. They accept unsolicited submissions. Doesn't appear to even have been discussed before. I don't think this can be used for anything other than what they themselves are saying, and since neither the Tibetan Political Review nor the writers appear to be notable, I'm not sure why we'd ever even be quoting/attributing them. At any rate, not an RS for anything other than their own opinions, attributed. —valereee (talk) 17:03, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• To clarify the dispute, both the independent scholar Warren W Smith and Tibetan Political Review are being challenged at Nyingchi. I propose that the focus of this RSN be broadened to include Smith as an author, as well.
• Tibetan Political Review was founded in June 2010, and its editorial board is comprised of academics and jurists in the U.S and India. These include Nima R.T. Binara, Wangchuk D. Shakabpa, Bhuchung D. Sonam, and Tenzin Wangyal. Their web site was [50] as listed on the Tibetan Political Review page at fr.wikipedia [51], but is presently [52]. Their Wikipedia page doesn't list the editorial board's other professional interests, even if they are published poets.
• It's cited by Courrier International[53] which is published by Le Monde; included in University of Minnesota's Human Rights Library[54] for reliable accounts of conditions in Tibet; listed in Oxford University's Press Oxford Handbooks' Scholarly Research Reviews [55]; cited by Harvard Kennedy School Asian American Policy Review [56] and by Harvard Law School [57]; cited by Tibetan Review[58], and by World Tibet News/Canada Tibet News Network[59] as well as by the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada for reliable accounts of conditions in Tibet[60]. The list could continue, but might be seen as "bludgeoning" the issue that Tibetan Political Review is effectively peer reviewed, is cited, and definitely found very reliable by both academic institutions and a governmental agency vetting reports from Tibet, MarkH21 and Esiymbro and Normchou.
• Warren W Smith has a scholarly piece in Tibetan Political Review, and it's what led to this RSN; a very knowledgeable and respectable piece covering modern history in the region [61]. Any editor with the same knowledge base would agree, regardless of its "hosted" url. That's why it was provided as RS. Amazon's bio says,Warren W. Smith Jr., an independent scholar in Alexandria, Virginia, received his Ph.D in international relations from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy.[62] Smith's specialty is "Tibetan nationalism, Sino-Tibetan relations and the issue of Tibetan self-determination". Smith also has a page at fr.wiki[63], where it's noted that a critic Barry Sautman is himself criticized in his own page's lead for espousing PRC views[64], as in Ses positions sur le Tibet sont jugées comme étant proches de celles de la République populaire de Chine.
• At Talk:Nyingchi#Tourism it's clear Smith's scholarly views of China's Tourism policies in Tibet as presented in Tibetan Political Review are an issue. And, Tibetan Political Review has also become an issue, although the author and RS's stability dates from 30october, when it was discovered while digging for RS on the Middle Way Approach. My dispute is not about a lack of RSN on these topics, but the effective silencing of a scholar's criticism of policies due to random issues, such as the URL and such as ignoring the academics on the editorial board and the academic institutions which find Tibetan Political Review reliable - including Harvard University, Oxford University, and the University of Minnesota. Pasdecomplot (talk) 23:55, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• None of these sources seem to establish peer review, and only the Canadian Immigration Board calls it a journal. As valeree points out, the editors are distinctly lacking in qualifications in the relevant fields (between the four list on the about page only 1 has a relevant degree - a BA in Political Science). Warren W Smith may be an SME, but I personally would not call anyone a SME unless they had an English Wikipedia page. While I generally overlook this, in this case the claim is deeply controversial and the post provides no supporting evidence. The fact that it reads like a polemic, not an academic paper (tourism is aimed at turning Tibet into something like a theme park where Chinese can go to indulge their fantasies about primitive Tibetan society doesn't sound like something I'd see in a serious journal) does not help me. ~ El D. (talk to me) 01:22, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
• Literally only one of the links of citations (the Oxford Handbooks' Scholarly Research Reviews link) is a published academic review, and even then it isn't reviewing the TPR article itself. The rest is a mix of student publications, a mention that an alum is on the editorial board in an alumni spotlight, raw links on a library page, non-academic Tibetan diaspora journalism, and a Canadian immigration board's response to an information request. If that is all that can be found for the 837 articles published by the TPR then it definitely does not qualify as being vetted by the scholarly community.
  The other editors here also bring up a valid point about the editorial board being self-described as poets, writers, and lawyers without academic affiliations. That's not the kind of editorial board that you find with scholarly journals. — MarkH₂₁^talk 01:53, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• The points Smith makes about Chinese tourism policies in Tibet are widely shared, by residents throughout Lhasa and visitors to its spiritual sites, at monasteries, and are found as related to the demolitions and forced displacement of nuns and monks at Larung Gar and Yarchen Gar. Other sources go further to state tourism policies in Tibet are used as a form of ongoing cultural genocide. Smith's informed and pithy statements are supported by Tsering Woeser and many others, as I've learned while editing. It's rather shocking, certainly, but the information is a proven reliable account of current conditions in Tibet, by an academic specialist. Thus, it is something you'd find in an academic journal, and it appears long overdue in being cited widely.
• Smith has a page in French Wikipedia, and is cited in several French media outlets - additional diffs can be provided. El D's opinion about English wiki pages for authors is an opinion not supported by RS. Additionally, El D also happens to find Chinese state-run Xinhua accurate in a current RSN [65] yet has issues with Tibetan Political Review? Xinhua's reporting in 2008 alone revealed it as a complete disinformation outlet.
• Another editor opines views, picked up by MarkH21, but those views aren't supported by diffs. My source says the board has academics. Is there a list of board members and their professional affiliations for each academic RS, or even for each RS that can be used for comparison? Probably not.
• The highly prestigious and academically stringent Harvard Kennedy School and Harvard Law School citings, characterized as "student publications", indicate that current scholars and future leaders have confidence in the reliability of Tibetan Political Review. Their confidence signifies an academic standard within the student body and professorial body that Tibetan Political Review meets.
• All of which makes the continued dispute on the author and on the journal seem somewhat out of balance with RS standards. I might point out that editors here also support the previous replacment of text via Tibetan Political Review with different text via the source Radio Free Asia, in contradiction to those editor's previously stated views on RFA, which can be found in RSN archive 313. What the replacement indicates is RFA is considered more reliable than Tibetan Political Review. (Wording changed per request by Girth Summit)Pasdecomplot (talk) 11:00, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

What other sources say about other issues in Tibet are irrelevant. If they back up the claims of the TPR, then use them in the article instead. If they simply claim that Tibetans are undergoing political genocide, then they are irrelevant to the claim that Nyingchi is a "fake village". My statement against it being the sort of thing that would be found in an academic journal was an issue with the wording, not the meaning.

I doubt that student publications can be considered part of the scholarly community. Here is the editorial board of the IJCP (being used above as a source against Xinhua). This is what an editorial board of a scholarly journal should look like. (on the subject of Xinhua, I do not believe my views on Xinhua are relevant. If you would like to dispute them, take them up on the relevant RSN.)

My request for an English language Wikipedia page is my personal interpretation of WP:SPS. I am happy to give a lot of leeway on it for non-controversial claims, but this one is clearly quite controversial. If the TPR is reliable, then it is clearly not needed. But if it isn't then I would like, on controversial issues like this, the involved source to have a Wikipedia page demonstrating their notability. ~ El D. (talk to me) 12:17, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

IJCP is a completely different source. We're not saying all academic journals need boards comparable to IJCP. The issue is reliability, as evidenced by academic usage, review, and academic credentials of those involved.

The "personal interpretation" for pages is noted, but is not RS policy from my understanding.

[]Harvard Law#Rankings|Harvard Law]] and Harvard Kennedy School are considered part of the US, and the world's, scholarly community.Pasdecomplot (talk) 13:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

The rankings and reputations of the schools at Harvard are not relevant here. A Harvard Law School alumni bulletin that says that someone is on the editorial board of the Tibetan Political Review and a Harvard Kennedy School student publication that cites the Tibetan Political Review once do not tie the reliability of the Tibetan Political Review to the reputation of Harvard as a whole. — MarkH₂₁^talk 13:34, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Pasdecomplot: Your assertion that people in Tibet share Smith's views does nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that he is a subject-matter expert or a reliable source. If his view is repeated by reliable sources, then use those reliable sources. Whether someone has an article on some version of Wikipedia doesn't demonstrate that they are a subject-matter expert.

The article you describe as from the Harvard Kennedy School describes itself as A Harvard Kennedy School Student Publication. Student publications are not established RSes regardless of the home institution, just as masters theses and doctoral theses-in-progress are not considered RSes per WP:SCHOLARSHIP. The article that you describe as a citation from the Harvard Law School is literally an Alumni Focus bulletin that only mentions the Tibetan Political Review once: says Tenzin Wangyal, a Boston lawyer and member of the editorial board of the Tibetan Political Review. That is anything but a citation of the Tibetan Political Review and says literally nothing about its reliability.

The Tibetan Political Review Editorial Team page describes them exactly as Valereee did, e.g. a poet, writer and translator living in New York City, a writer living in Dharamsala, India, He is admitted to practice law in New York and Massachusetts. The fact that they graduated with bachelor's degrees and law degrees from universities does not mean that they are academics.

You're going off-topic by pointing at another editor's views on other sources and suggesting hypocrisy. You're also going off-topic about Radio Free Asia and also make vague references to editors; I did not suggest replacing the text at Nyingchi that was cited to Tibetan Political Review with a citation to Radio Free Asia, nor did anyone else here to my knowledge. I only removed the text referenced to Tibetan Political Review because it's not a reliable source, and so far five other editors have agreed with that view except you. — MarkH₂₁^talk 13:15, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

There is no suggestion of hypocracy. The point on RFA is germaine as a comparison, given the current edits at Nyingchi [66] where the text via RFA (as edited by Normchou) remains after several reverts, including a revert earlier today by MarkH21. The point is this RSN demonstrates Tibetan Political Review is included as a reliable source of current accounts in Tibet as versus RFA, which is not seen as a reliable source for the same accounts, and is described as a source that should only be used as an inline source per the RSN. If it wasn't used to replace Tibetan Political Review, I agree it would be off-topic. Pasdecomplot (talk) 13:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

There were two paragraphs; one referenced to the Tibetan Political Review and one referenced to RFA. In this edit, I deleted the paragraph referenced to the Tibetan Political Review and did not replace anything with RFA. There also isn't a single participant in this RSN discussion who said that RFA was unreliable in the archived RSN thread that you refer to. You're misrepresenting the comments of other editors with something that is totally off-topic. — MarkH₂₁^talk 14:02, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Here's a text quote about RFA from RSN archive 313 I suggest this section be closed henceforth. Radio Free Asia, which actually purports to be a news agency, can be the subject of the first separate discussion. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 02:57, 19 September 2020 (UTC) Pasdecomplot (talk) 14:45, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

That's a blocked editor who has not commented at this RSN thread and cannot comment at this RSN thread. That's also not an example of your full claim that editors here also support the previous replacment of text via Tibetan Political Review with different text via the source Radio Free Asia. Are you still standing behind it or can you just drop the false claim? — MarkH₂₁^talk 14:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• The other RSN thread is completely immaterial here; none of those sources were deemed reliable. The most common comments I can find in that thread was that the sources needed to be examined individually rather than as a group, and that the thread was trying to argue about too many sources at once. I'm not sure anyone but PDC even commented on Radio Free Asia there. —valereee (talk) 16:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

To make sure inaccuracies are corrected for the future archive: Here's the text from the closing at Archive 313, Sources should be discussed individually. I may be one of the users who was "canvassed" to this discussion. In any case, I watch this page and would have noticed. I think sources should be taken one by one. WP:USEBYOTHERS may be relevant to some of these. Between the (possibly innocent) canvassing and the joining of eight sources in this discussion, I'd suggest starting over with one or two of the sources in separate discussions. Adoring nanny. So, for the record, the statement above none of those sources were deemed reliable is actually not accurate as per closing, but the discussion does supply other general use guidelines. Another innaccuracy I'm not sure anyone but PDC even commented on Radio Free Asia there was already clarified above, where the only comment on RFA by CarasdhrasAiguo has been provided here, and note the coment was not addressed by the other editors. I only requested the RSN on RFA and other sources, after repeated reverts of those sources by CaradhrasAiguo. Although that editor is not participating in this RSN, their non-summarized revert at Nyingchi of Tibetan Political Review [67]began a series of reverts which then led to this RSN. Pasdecomplot (talk) 12:48, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

But, to return to the topic and comments: The Harvard Kennedy School AAPR journal cites Smith twice, and Tibetan Political Review once - the same Smith article on the Middle Way Policy previously edited into Nyingchi. The Harvard Law Bulletin quotes Tenzen Wangyal, a Boston lawyer and board member of Tibetan Political Review, in its article on Lobsang Sangay of Central Tibetan Administration and a Harvard Law alumnus. The IRB's citing of Tibetan Political Review in its background on an immigration case signifies their position on its reliability, as indicated by their absence of disagreement to the information. The Oxford Handbooks Online scholarly research reviews and peer reviewed abstract entitledTibetan Buddhist Self-Immolation by Kevin Carrico cites at least four different articles from Tibetan Political Review in its references, which are cited alongside Robert Barnett, Janet Gyatso, Tsering Woeser, Jamyang Norbu, Elliott Sperling and others. Pasdecomplot (talk) 14:14, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Pasdecomplot, if you're referring to my comment as "inaccuracies" that you're correcting for future archives (it would be so much easier if you stopped playing this little game of yours and just addressed me directly, but whatever): The text you are quoting is not the closing statement in that discussion. That text is a comment from a single editor, Adoring nanny. It just happened to be the final comment made in that discussion. That does not make it the closing statement. That discussion never received a formal closing. The statement I made is correct: in that thread, which was never formally closed, none of the sources addressed were declared reliable. None were declared to be not-reliable, either. None were declared anything. —valereee (talk) 14:31, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Berlin's Humboldt University's South Asia Chronicle includes an abstract by M.N.Rajesh, which cites Tibetan Political Review and Smith[68], and Reed University's Anthropology of Global Tibet appears to include Tibetan Political Review on its reading list (included on searches). Author, editor and translator Tenzin Dickie is published by Washington Post Online, edits at Treasury of Lives, and edits at Tibetan Political Review [69]. Woeser as a RS cites Smith [70]. And, here's a Courrier International's reprint of Tibetan Political Review [71]. Pasdecomplot (talk) 15:15, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Pasdecomplot, Again, none of these makes Tibetan Political Review a reliable source for anything but their own opinions. They may very well be informed opinions. Academics may very well put them on reading lists and even cite them. None of that creates editorial oversight. And, yes, academic journals and other reliable sources DO provide a list of their editorial hierarchy, that's one of the things we check for when we are assessing a source for reliability: some sort of masthead. —valereee (talk) 15:29, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Valereee is correct. For TPR's 837 articles, our searches has turned up two citations of TPR articles from any peer-reviewed scholarly publications. That is paltry and worse than several known predatory journals, let alone reputable peer-reviewed sources that have been vetted by the scholarly community (WP:SCHOLARSHIP again). The remaining evidence does not demonstrate much in terms of reliability:

• A Canadian immigration board (IRB) information request citation
• A student publication (AAPR) citation
• A alumni bulletin mentioning that a Harvard alum was on the TPR editorial board
• TPR appearing on reading lists
• Verification that one of the writers on the TPR editorial board (Tenzin Dickyi) is indeed a writer
• The author of a TPR article being cited in a blog post by another writer (Tsering Woeser)
• Being reprinted in a newspaper

It appears that there is no stronger evidence for reliability, and even a couple more additional genuine citations from peer-reviewed academic publications would be too few to really bring this to general RS status. — MarkH₂₁^talk 04:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

{Replying to MarkH21's refractor}

• As WP:SOURCE states, If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources..., but doesn't say they are the only reliable sources. We've established that the board provides professional oversite, and we've established that academic authors in peer reviewed journals cite Tibetan Political Review as in WP:USEBYOTHERS.
• Warren Smith, the author of the article in Tibetan Political Review, is also established as a respected and notable specialist in his field. This adds further reliability to the article that's specifically contested with edits at Nyingchi [72]. He and Tibetan Political Review are properly cited inline, and the quotation's accuracy is reinforced by an excerpt added to the citation:

Historian Warren W. Smith states in his 2015 review of the model villages, included in his "Origins of the Middle Way Policy" for Tibetan Political Review, that tourism is turning Tibet into a theme park, and used Nyingchi's "fake Tibetan 'model villages'" as an example of Chinese "fantasies about primitive Tibetan society".

• To address another aspect of the importance of the author and source, related edits on Nyingchi were also reedited, but based on other RS. Possible related informational aspects with Smith's article is that those RS and sources state Tibetan nuns forced into political re-education centers/camps in Nyingchi have been documented as forced to sing and dance on a stage in Nyingchi. Which might or might not tie into "where Chinese can go to indulge their fantasies" since Nyingchi is a popular tourist destination, only more RS will tell.
• For the record, the published author Woeser is cited by BBC and other first rate news agencies, and her blog is a famous record of Chinese human rights abuses in Tibet, and cited by those agencies.
• Sorry for the repetition, but the IRB (Immigration and Refugee Board) citation is extremely notable as to the reliability of factual information in Tibetan Political Review regarding current conditions in Tibet.
• I've provided at least six individual citations of different articles from academic settings, and there are more for Smith alone, for Smith and Tibetan Political Review together, and for the journal with its other authors. Pasdecomplot (talk) 15:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

References

(ec) MarkH21, I think items reprinted in RS would probably be usable as items from that reliable source (rather than from TPR), but the one PDC has linked to is published by Courrier International as an opinion piece, so again only a reliable source for Tenzin Dorjee's/TPR's opinion, with attribution. —valereee (talk) 15:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Note: Editor MarkH21 has stated that the edit above describing editorial "support" for RFA is "a false claim". While Esyimbro and Normchou both used RFA as an editing source, MarkH21 did not, but the edit history includes 5 reedits around the RFA source as Tibetan Political Review was being challenged as a source [73]. The interpretation of "support" stemed from WP:SILENCE in this instance where numerous edits and reverts around RFA were being made, but no deletions of RFA occurred. I don't believe a "false claim" was made, although MarkH21 has clearly restated they don't feel SILENCE is applicable. Thus, this note respectfully clarifies MarkH21's position on RFA. Pasdecomplot (talk) 12:11, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The seriously off-topic edits below should be refractored to the user's talk page. A request has already been made. Pasdecomplot (talk) 10:36, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

requests re reformatting

Pasdecomplot please stop reformatting my replies. You changed the indent so that it looked like I was replying to a different post than I intended. I have changed it back. I have asked you not to do this many times before, and if you do it again I am going to have to ask someone else to please ask you to stop. Stop now. Do not reformat any of my posts ever again. Please respond. —valereee (talk) 15:34, 23 December 2020 (UTC) Pasdecomplot I've struck the section of my earlier post that I think you must have been referring to, and I apologize, I do see how that could feel like a personal attack. Now please respond to this one and assure me you understand that I am asking you to never reformat one of my posts again, even in an attempt to be helpful. —valereee (talk) 18:02, 23 December 2020 (UTC) PDC, it's not off topic. You were reformatting my replies in this discussion. That makes my request you stop reasonable to include here. If having it visible is going to bother you that much, though, I'll collapse it. —valereee (talk) 15:55, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• So, it's clear we don't have consensus for TPR to be considered a reliable source (other than for its own opinions, attributed, of course; it's perfectly reliable for that.) But I think we'd need a formal close to declare it not-reliable for anything other than its own opinions, attributed, as that's not as immediately clear. Should we request a formal close? —valereee (talk) 15:55, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Four editors have participated here, with three calling it not reliable (outside of WP:ABOUTSELF) and one calling it reliable. Another editors (plus a now-blocked editor) also called it not reliable at the original Talk:Nyingchi discussion. The consensus seems pretty clear, but a formal close doesn't hurt. — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Poreklo

Serbian private genetic portal Poreklo(Порекло) as RS for origin, genetic, history etc information's?

• Портал Порекло основан је 1. фебруара 2012. са идејом да постане свеобухватна база података о пореклу презимена, имена, насеља и становништва у местима Србије, као и на целом простору бивше Југославије. The portal Poreklo was founded on February 1, 2012 with the idea of becoming a comprehensive database on the origin of surnames, names, settlements and populations in places in Serbia, as well as in the entire territory of the former Yugoslavia.[74] Mikola22 (talk) 17:35, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

  Maybe surname etymology, but not much else, I would say. (t · c) buidhe 13:57, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

• Who edits it, who writes for it, what is is reputation among academics?Slatersteven (talk) 14:03, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Portal Poreklo osnovala je grupa entuzijasta okupljena u Društvu srpskih rodoslovaca „Poreklo”, sa sedištem u Beogradu. The Poreklo portal was founded by a group of enthusiasts gathered in the Association of Serbian Genealogists "Poreklo", based in Belgrade. [75] Who edits it, writes or whether has reputation among academics, I don't know anything about that. As for reputation among academics I don’t think it exists in the sense that someone use portal Poreklo as source in some scientific work. Mikola22 (talk) 15:32, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
    • So just another web site, not sure its RS.Slatersteven (talk) 15:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
      • @Slatersteven:There is a list of contributors in impressum part that includes доц. др Душан Кецкаревић- docent in biochemistry and molecular biology at university of Belgrade,др. Ивица Тодоровић- ethnologist, др Бојана Панић- molecular biologist, др Милош Тимотијевић- historian, Борисав Челиковић also a historian and etc., people with PHD and with scientific research behind them. User:Theonewithreason (talk) 24. December 2020 (UTC)
        • and on its about page (and can we please type English translations of names, ect) "Collects and processes scientific, professional, but also lay literature", so it is not only by experts. "Conducts conversations with individuals, who are the guardians and transmitters of folklore", that reads like they carry out and publish their own work (so maybe SPS issue). IN fact they look like a advocacy group. Nor can I see a list of contributors (or any editorial policy).Slatersteven (talk) 15:54, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
          • Editorial policy is under Statut part of the page [[76]]. Regarding names доц. др Душан Кецкаревић -doc.dr Dusan Keckarevic, др. Ивица Тодоровић - Dr. Ivica Todorovic, др Бојана Панић -Dr. Bojana Panic, др Милош Тимотијевић - Dr. Milos Timotijevic , Борисав Челиковић- Borisav Celikovic. User:Theonewithreason (talk) 24. December 2020 (UTC)

• 1) A number of European portal on genetics are "private", like that means it's something bad or suspicious. 2) They have a number of people with PhD in their ranks and have done the best job when it comes to scale of samples and the general studies of heritage of ethnic groups on the Balkans. Work done by Poreklo is far superior then any other project in former Yugoslavia. 3) Authors associated with Poreklo have published noted books and capital works. For example: [77][78] 3.1) Poreko has also published large studies/books on their main topic of expertise. [79] 3.2) A tool developed by Poreklo members "Nevgen" is used all around the world and it largely contributed to their reputation and funding. [80][81] 4) They have also published online a number of great books on ethnology etc. [82] 5) They work with a number of scientists and NGOs, which is also mentioned here. [83] 6) Most of the articles written by Poreklo members are based on reliable sources and use multiple citations, as any decent study/work should. [84] All in all - quite the RS. Cheers, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:00, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• 1) Eupedia is also European portal on genetics and it is not RS, see discusion [85] 2) If they have some people with PhD in their ranks it does not mean that portal itself is RS. We cite information's from that portal and not information's from their books which are also located outside portal. Their books are not published by portal Poreklo, in first case it is "Издавачка кућа Прометеј"(The publishing house Prometheus) and second case is book of some associate with not much information about the book or author. 3) Same answer as for 2), also Jovica-Krtinić(main editor of portal Poreklo) author of that "studies/book" is not a scientist, he is from (Milutin Bojić’s Library, Belgrade, Serbia and Society of Serbian Genealogists Poreklo). Tool developed by Poreklo members "Nevgen" is developed by anonymous private person which is also used by some foreign scientists. 4) They(portal) published nothing, they are just one of the media which has and books on their portal that also exist and elsewhere. 5) They collect raw genetic data from private individuals and this information can be useful for some scientists but that does not mean that the portal itself or information's from that portal are RS. 6) We do not know who edits the texts or what some texts are based on, many texts are written by private individuals also.
• We also have WP:COPYRIGHT and WP:NONFREE issues with this source in rules and conditions of using the Serbian DNA project(genetic results and information's) because "Article 2: It is not allowed to publish results from a Serbian DNA project without obtaining the consent of the Serbian DNA project editorial board", "Article 3: It is not permitted to visualize parts of the project in electronic media (on television and the Internet) without obtaining the consent of the Serbian DNA project editorial board" and "Article 5: It is not allowed to use data from the Serbian DNA project for commercial purposes". [86] "Non-commercial use only" license is not supported on Wikipedia and that's what Article 5 is about.

• Therefore this source is not and cannot be RS. Mikola22 (talk) 05:12, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• • I have to agree with @Sadko: specially if this is used for a dispute like we have on [[87]] page that unnecessary lasts few days long, in that case site poreklo is equally realible as portal Hrcak.hr in which we have whole different types of contributors some of them are with PHD some of them are without like the author, site poreklo should not be dismissed so easily because it is more reliable than some other sources User:Theonewithreason (talk) 25. December 2020 (UTC)

• Hrčak je centralni portal koji na jednom mjestu okuplja hrvatske znanstvene i stručne časopise koji nude otvoreni pristup svojim radovima(Hrčak is a central portal that brings together Croatian scientific and professional journals that offer open access to their works) while portal Poreklo is some private genetic portal used as RS. Hrcak.hr is not RS he only transfers various sources. Mikola22 (talk) 08:36, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Which means that every article in Hrcak.hr should be individually looked and valued to see does it present some sort of advocacy or not. And like you written above it is not just presented by scientist there are number of different contributors, therefore it doesn't present more RS than "some" other site. User:Theonewithreason (talk) 25. December 2020 (UTC)

You must not delete information from the article(Josif Pančić) without discussion on talk page or if exist some problem with some source you must discuss it here by opening a new topic. I did not delete the previous two sources, although they had problems. The Croatian source has not had any problems so far and I don't think he will in the future, so please return information to the article. This way of disruptive editing it will only bring you to punishment or block, because we must respect source and information from source. Mikola22 (talk) 08:58, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

It will not block me because a) the source you contributed does not say anything about his origin, b) As we can it has same issues like here discussed source and it doesn't mean that it will not have problems in future specially if it is misused c) It appears there is number of editors disagreeing with you and d) by restoring just one part of information and ignoring some other sources that were not marked as unreliable shows lack of WP:GOODFAITH, my suggestion is that you find international neutral source from well sourced authors, you can restore it to a previous edit from senior editor Slatersteven or you can leave it like @Aeengath: left it until we find more reliable neutral source. You could also cooperate with user Aeengath to reach a consensus.User:Theonewithreason (talk) 25. December 2020 (UTC)

Comparison with Hrčak.hr completely missed the point. A superficial attempt to give some validity to Poreklo.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

• It's not a reliable source. If you are using this type of controversial source in a controversial article, it should be a recognized source whose claims to reliability can be verified some place other than their own website. They don't have established reputations for fact-checking and are usually contradicted by equally weighty sources from other, rival nations. We should shut the door on endless disputes about which of these sources we should ban, which is where this is heading - see Sadko's comment: "Work done by Poreklo is far superior then any other project in former Yugoslavia." and Theonewithreason "poreklo should not be dismissed so easily because it is more reliable than some other sources". Unless this work is of broader academic interest and merit, which can be shown by citations in mainstream scholarship, I don't see this project as the platform to emphasize or promote views which may introduce WP:FRINGE ideas. Spudlace (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

That means the same thing goes for internet portal Hrcak.hr same issues, not always written by scientists, if overused could give partisan and one sided view etc. We should not have double standards here User:Theonewithreason (talk) 25. December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe, launch an RSN thread about it. But we do not horse trade.Slatersteven (talk) 09:49, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Poreklo falls somewhere in the middle of the RS spectrum. It's published by the Serbian Genealogical Society but many of its contributors aren't academics or experts in the field of genealogy, although quite a few are. As Buidhe noted earlier, it can likely be considered RS for surname etymologies and the like. For concrete claims regarding an individual's or family's ethnic origin (often a contentious topic in the Balkans) stronger sources are needed (WP:V). Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 22:58, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

They are an SPS advocacy group with no claims to editorial oversight that self-published work based on "conversations with individuals, who are the guardians and transmitters of folklore", as discussed above by Slatersteven and others. That fails every requirement of WP:RS. For contentious topics, we should cite only stronger sources with an established reputation. Spudlace (talk) 02:03, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

• Unreliable. Seemingly most of the members and editors who are writing articles on Poreklo are not educated historians, linguists, geneticists, and so on, but mainly a group of volunteers. For example, one of the authors mentioned by editor Sadko studied the economy while the president and main editor of the society and portal Poreklo, Jovica Krtinić, studied politics. Even if some of them are educated in a scientific field of work, education as such is not enough argument for reliability because we also seek reputation, specialization, and critical reception in scientific articles. I tried reading recent articles with Google Translate. They are obviously using their platform for promoting controversial viewpoints and fringe theories based on some limited genetic information like in this latest article using only selected few scientific references. It is claiming that Zachlumia, Pagania, Travunia and Duklja were Serbian principalities, that most of the scholars believe that Serbs from Zachlumia or Pagania migrated to a region in Italy and due to Michael of Zahumlje origin from a tribe of Litziki from Poland where in today's population was found some genetic match with a sample in Serbia and Italy, it somehow proves the Serbian historical origin and relationship with people and region in Poland and Italy. As can be read in the articles for which provided wikilinks (as well as Kanalites, Bosnia (early medieval polity), White Serbs and White Serbia), it is completely contradicting the general and modern scientific consensus & debate and does not make any sense. Agree with Spudlace, the comments by Serbian editors Sadko and Theonewithreason are biased. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I am not a Serbian editor ,if you think to label people it should be noted that Filigranski is Croatian editor therefore biased. User:Theonewithreason (talk) 30. December 2020 (UTC)

I'm an Italian citizen, ethnically Italian-Slovene. Sorry if misinterpreted your nationality or ethnicity, but you're mainly editing and engaging in discussion on Serbian topics with an obvious Serbian point of view.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 10:52, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I am just going to say that I am of mixed Yugoslav ethnicity with different citizenship never been in Serbia, about mine point of view same thing can go in your way since it is obvious your are pushing towards Croatian side (a lot), you are not as extreme as other editors here but but you are gaming the system like you did with Trbovich, funny don't see you fighting the same way when some other authors are heavily used i.e Anzulovic (who is even in Croatian history circles discarded) but no matter. I am long enough here to understand how you "play the game" and that administrators here don't give 2 cents about Balkan topics. User:Theonewithreason (talk) 30. December 2020 (UTC)

But just to be clear on one thing I would rather cooperate with you and some other Croatian Users like Oymosby who do understand Wikipedia rules so at least we can discuss, then with some other who are really just here to push it.User:Theonewithreason (talk) 30. December 2020 (UTC)

You're making false accusations about Trbovich. On articles about science we must use reliable sources published by reliable authors who primarily specialized in a relevant scientific field of work. Trbovich studied art, literature, law, and the economy. Barely anything related to history as well as was only paraphrasing historian's Miller's source which was also cited because of which was pointless to use Trbovich's source anymore.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• The portal can be helpful in certain cases, especially for resolving etymological disputes. However, we should be careful with genetic studies. There have been many RSN cases (1, 2). and we should use only recent peer-reviewed journal articles.--WEBDuB (talk) 12:11, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

RfC: Business Insider

Which of the following best describes the reliability of Business Insider?

businessinsider.com  
businessinsider.in  
businessinsider.co.za  
businessinsider.com.au  

• Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail?

AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 21:41, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Previous RSN discussion: [88] Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:31, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Several other previous discussions listed at WP:RSPSOURCES. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 02:48, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 2. Mainly per this old-ish article in the The New Yorker. It is owned by Axel Springer SE (see [89]), which seems reputable enough to this non-German reader. It looks like a WP:NEWSORG to me—the lead article as of when I'm typing this is bylined, although it doesn't include any quotations not previously published. I'd say this looks like a slightly more questionable WP:HUFFPO. If consensus is not to deprecate, I would suggest flagging at RSP that usage of Business Insider should be attributed, if not avoided. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 21:41, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Axel Springer are the publishers of Bild a notorious german tabloid often compared to the The Sun, and has a questionable reputation for factual accuracy. Of course the same company that owns The Sun also owns The Times which is generally reliable, so I don't necessarily that the reliability of a publication can be determined by its owner if they happen to be a major publishing company. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Axel Springer also owns Die Welt which is solidly reliable. (t · c) buidhe 13:56, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

• Solid Option 2 leaning towards Option 3. Started out as a collection of blogs, all the awards it's received have been in blog categories. Known to engage in clickbait tactics and noted by the New Yorker for prioritizing speed over accuracy. Also noted in the current Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources listing, which notes a whopping nine times it's been discussed already, the site does not clearly mark syndicated content and that makes for another reliability issue since such content has to be gauged by the reliability of the original publisher. IHateAccounts (talk) 21:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
• Leaning Option 2. It has some good stuff, but some awful churnalised clickbait. I'm reluctant to consider it sufficient to connote notability. I'd certainly attribute at least - David Gerard (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 I'm leaning towards option 3 as well. Maybe some of the content is good and some isn't. I don't think it's reliable enough to use as the only source because of known churnalism and questions about fact-checking. It's not taken seriously at AfD. Spudlace (talk) 09:48, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1, per WP:NEWSORG. Ad Fontes rates their reliability and bias as 43.13 and -0.38.[90] So slightly better than The Economist. Media Bias / Fact Check rates their reporting Very High.[91] ImTheIP (talk) 12:14, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

  ImTheIP, Thanks, that's very helpful. I'm not familiar with Ad Fontes Media. Do we typically use their ratings as evidence of reliability in other contexts? (Not to say they aren't reliable—I just haven't heard of them before). AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:54, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

  We don't regard them highly at all. They're not a good media ratings organisation. Neither is MB/FC, which is literally just some guy's blog opinions - David Gerard (talk) 19:37, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

  David Gerard, IMO Ad Fontes is a very useful tool, and they roughly agree with our own RSNP on many sources. But they're a tool, not evidence of reliability. We don't (and shouldn't) use them as evidence. But as a tool, they're pretty useful. —valereee (talk) 21:17, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

There are some key cases in which our standards diverge wildly from AF. I'm not going to talk about their 'bias' axis, but their 'reliability' axis is quite different from our conceptions. They take into account headlines and graphics, which in general we consider separately from article content. They also consider 'expression', which they define as (essentially) the % of opinion content in an article vs the % of fact. This is not in itself a bad thing--we prefer to clearly mark opinion content--but it makes using their scoring much less useful for our purposes. I think there are other ways in which our definitions of reliability diverge from their definition of veracity, but this is a fair start. Jlevi (talk) 21:33, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1. Now that I think of it, I don't really see any evidence that they're not reliable. There's clickbait, sure ([92] was at the top of their trending list as of the time I'm writing this), but it's attributed to check-able sources and bylined. It seems comparable in reliability and bias ratings to other reliable sources, per the !vote immediately above, keeping in mind any necessary caveats about the reliability of those sources. Their native advertising is tagged as such (and that article is from 2013). They aggregate and rely on others' reporting, but so does HuffPo, a reliable source. The New Yorker article that concerned me above doesn't actually make any claims of journalistic malpractice. I'm now inclined to view BI as a genuine news organization—buzzy and clickbaity, no doubt, but a news organization nonetheless. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:56, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Business Insider's headlines are out there and they've received a lot for criticism for it. "Buzzy and clickbaity" headlines are significant. WP:NEWSORG says to cite the reporting agency too, so why not just cite it to the agency? Editors use all kinds of crazed tactics to push POV into articles. Spudlace (talk) 02:25, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Spudlace, Citing the agency is of course appropriate when there is an agency, but BI publishes original reporting as well. As for buzzy headlines, HuffPo runs them too (this one is an AP report). AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 02:48, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

@AleatoryPonderings: Two things. First, it seems a bit disingenuous for you to have tried to remove information you didn't like about the source [93] followed by trying to add information you did [94] to the article, seemingly to influence this RFC?

Second, you seem to have ignored or missed the consensus of previous discussions and a key finding as listed on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, which is their failure to clearly mark syndicated content, which makes evaluating content on the reliability of the original source excessively difficult. Aggregation or syndication, clearly marked as such, is one thing; failing to clearly mark it falls into an area of possible source-laundering. I am reminded of another recent case where someone was trying to misrepresent a syndicated Washington Examiner piece full of WP:FRINGE election conspiracy-theory content as "coverage by MSN", which thankfully was easily debunked since MSN clearly marked it and even included the WE header. Imagine instead, the WE piece had been laundered by Business Insider, which doesn't properly mark its syndicated content? IHateAccounts (talk) 17:40, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

IHateAccounts, Please WP:AGF with respect to my edits to Business Insider. The first edit was an attempt to remove a POV subsection (calling a section "tabloid clickbait" is clearly POV-laden). The second was an ordinary edit to add information about the source. I am not a shill for BI; rather, I have been convinced of their reliability from information presented in this RfC, which I added to the article to better inform readers.

Second, when you say "syndicated", do you mean sponsored or taken from an agency? If the former, they seem to mark it; if the latter, I don't actually see the evidence that they don't mark syndicated content (WP:RSP says "may not be clearly marked", which is not a definitive statement in the least). If you could point me to a more specific example of their failure to do so, I would be happy to consider it. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:48, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Btw, here is an example where syndicated content from Reuters is very clearly marked. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:52, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

• Option 2 Lots of clickbait churnalism which should generally be considered UNDUE or adds no weight to a view. However occasionally a good story comes out of BI. Springee (talk) 01:17, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 leaning Option 4 What often happens at RSN is editors engage in individual analysis of sources or apply their own standards for determining reliability. We only have one standard to apply; if RS consider an outlet RS, it's RS; otherwise it's not. There have been such numerous RS that have repeatedly raised questions about the reliability of Business Insider's reporting and its editorial independence that I feel safe in !voting 4. For instance -

• Joining The Daily Mail as one of only two outlets who published a sensationalist and potentially fake headline about leaked documents (reported by PolitiFact [95])
• Giving a corporate advertiser "limited editorial control" over its news content (reported by Columbia Journalism Review [96])
• Allowing reporters to take junkets paid for by sources (reported by the Columbia Journalism Review which described it as a "serious ethical problem" [97])
• Publishing a factually false story about Apple (reported by Ryan Holiday in his book Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator[page 58]),
• Publishing a factually false story about Edward Snowden (reported by The Intercept [98]),
• Requiring its own reporters not to report negatively on the outlet itself (reported by The Daily Beast [99] - journalists at outlets like the BBC and the New York Times regularly cover their own shortcomings)
• A journalistic ethos for dubious "churn 'n burn" style journalism described as creating the potential for "fake news sites frequently trick[ing]" it (reported by the Columbia Journalism Review [100])
• Questionable ethics and journalistic credentials of editorial leadership - including the outlet's editorial head who is serving a lifetime ban from securities trading over fraud allegations (reported by The New Yorker [101])
• "Capricious story assignments" handed out by editorial leadership (reported by CNN [102])
• A scientifically demonstrated tendency [103] to use clickbait headlines,

- and a dozen other examples too numerous to mention. For full disclosure, I have regularly used BI stories in the past to reference content. In light of new learning from this discussion, I will refrain from doing so in the future and seek to replace it where I've added it. Chetsford (talk) 06:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC); edited 08:14, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

I have Holiday's book but I can't find the false Apple story in it. Can you provide some quotes from the book so that I can verify it? ImTheIP (talk) 13:27, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

ImTheIP, page 188. Vexations (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, I found it on page 182 in my version of the book. Though I can't see what is "factually incorrect" about it. ImTheIP (talk) 15:00, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

The "potentially fake headline" was A leaked presentation reveals the document US hospitals are using to prepare for a major coronavirus outbreak. It estimates 96 million US coronavirus cases and 480,000 deaths.[104] In February this year, James Lawler presented a forecast of Covid pandemic in the U.S. at a webinar held by the American Hospital Association (AHA). He predicted 480,000 deaths and 96 million infections and encouraged hospitals to "prepare" for an epidemic of that magnitude. PolitiFact rated BI's article false because it wasn't shown that hospitals were actually "preparing" for that.[105] According to PolitiFact, the AHA declined to respond when asked whether they were "preparing" for that or not. ImTheIP (talk) 10:35, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

PolitiFact rated it "false." I'm not qualified to independently analyze, research or apply qualifications or caveats to PolitiFact's reporting and conclusions. Chetsford (talk) 18:37, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The article about clickbait, Crowdsourcing a Large Corpus of Clickbait on Twitter, does not claim that BI has a "scientifically demonstrated tendency to use clickbait headlines". The only meaningful statistics presented is figure 4 on page 1506. The figure shows that the publishers with the least amount of clickbait are ABC News and FOX News. The publishers with the most amount of clickbait are Breitbart News, BuzzFeed, Yahoo, Mashable, and Forbes. BI is somewhere in the middle, with about the same amount of clickbait as Washington Post, and Independent. The authors do not state how many headlines there were from each publisher so it is hard to draw any hard and fast conclusions. ImTheIP (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• Dunno about reliability, but they shouldn’t be accepted for showing notability. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:44, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3, leaning 4. Chetsford's sleuthing has convinced me (for those keeping score, I have now !voted every possible !vote in this RfC). The stories about BI in Trust Me, I'm Lying are enough to put me over the edge of considering BI generally unreliable. On the other hand, it is frequently cited by fact checkers ([106], [107], [108], [109], [110]). Those fact checkers may need to update their policies, but I'm not quite ready to discount their reliance on BI. We shouldn't be relying on them, though. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:55, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2, leaning 3 - as suggested by their use by fact-checkers and the high rating given by Ad Fontes, most of their content appears reliable. However they clearly also have ethical issues and conduct sensationalist reporting and some factually inaccurate reporting. I would suggest treating as something along the lines of the Mirror or the Metro. (note, MB/FC also records this failed fact check). ~ El D. (talk to me) 12:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1: I can see no reason to limit use if this source. Examples listed above are not convincing. E.g. the Snowden story was also published by other outlets such as the Wall Street Journal. Business Insider did make a correction to its story. Sensationalist headlines are not relevant to what we do as headlines are not treated as reliable sources for our content. Burrobert (talk) 12:43, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1: I have used this source occasionally, and have never found it to be inaccurate. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:22, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2, leaning 3 per Springee and Chetsford. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 22:55, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2, while the information provided by Chetsford does give me pause, they are still well-respected by fact-checking organisations, and I find their journalism to be generally solid, if click-baity. They are certainly do not deserve a green tick, but I do not think I would consider them generally unreliable. Devonian Wombat (talk) 02:32, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Columbia Journalism Review [111] [112], The New Yorker [113], The Intercept [114], and CNN [115] (h/t Chetsford). We can do better for our readers. There is no information that Business Insider provides that is not provided by some other, better source. There's no reason to use it. Also echoing Chetsford that we only have one standard to apply: if RS consider an outlet RS, it's RS; otherwise it's not. Editors' personal opinions or experience with a source are totally irrelevant. Levivich ^harass/_hound 03:30, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I've opened the CNN link and I'm not sure why it supports Option 3. It does talk about the turnover of staff at BI attributed to the pressure to get more traffic - surely the case at many news outlets today - but how does it support the conclusion that it's unreliable? Alaexis_¿question? 08:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
    • If the first four support the conclusion that it's unreliable, then it doesn't matter if everyone is sure about the fifth. But a source that, as CNN reports, is run by a guy who was banned by the government for fraud, and who is causing journalists to leave by pressuring them to produce more content and get more scoops, at the expense of journalism, is not a source I would want to use to support any statement in any article. Levivich ^harass/_hound 17:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
      • I opened it at random, you will forgive me for doubting the rest as well now. The personality of the owner does not directly affect the reliability, you need to prove that his behaviour somehow made the reporting unreliable. Alaexis_¿question? 21:26, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
        • I will also forgive you for wasting my time. Levivich ^harass/_hound 23:22, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
        • It's not the owner (the owner is Axel Springer), it's the head of editorial; that very much and very directly impacts reliability. Chetsford (talk) 03:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2 for sure, unless BI has gotten significantly worse in the past year. Yes, they're very clickbaity, and yes, there's blog-esque content which is worthless, but that describes quite a lot of media nowadays. As long as non-bloggy work is cited and the usual rule of "completely ignore the headline" is followed (which is good advice even for "respectable" newspapers), they're still potentially usable. SnowFire (talk) 06:14, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

  but that describes quite a lot of media nowadays I agree but that doesn't mean we should lower our standards accordingly. We should just use a lot less news media than we currently do, across the site. News media is good for breaking news, pop culture, and that's about it. Levivich ^harass/_hound 17:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• Option 2 There is a lot of discussion about the clickbaitiness of BI but that is not reason enough to put it into the unreliable categories. The sources Chetsford provides show that it is not a paragon of reliability but it does generally at least pay more than lip service to journalistic standards. It does publish information that it shouldn't and so can't be reasonably considered to be in Option 1 but it does not reach the same level that lumps it into the post-truth nonsense sourcing group that has been deprecated here. The BI is not just an aggregator of other outlets' stories and not everything it publishes is available elsewhere. If a better source for the same information exists, it would be preferred but it should not be rejected out of hand. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:24, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

• General note: Business Insider is currently listed as no consensus at WP:RSP. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 21:45, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Why are you doing this? The current listing at RSP is "no consensus", with some additional considerations. And you put up this RFC hoping to get that changed to... "unclear, additional considerations apply". This is a giant waste of time. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm doing this in the hopes of getting a clearer consensus on its reliability, because it is frequently used on Wikipedia. You are welcome to contribute to the RfC, instead of disparaging it. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:33, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with RRC -- this is a giant waste of time. If you don't think it should be used, remove it; if you think it should be used, use it; if other people object, discuss it with them; if the discussion fails to produce a local consensus, then finally there is a purpose to a broader discussion like an RfC. There are an infinite number of sources, it is ridiculous to hold RfCs without concrete need. Please withdraw it. --JBL (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. This source has been discussed at RSN numerous times without consensus, and has been used as a source—on high-traffic articles such as Barack Obama and Donald Trump, among many others—more than 12,000 times. Of course, someone else can close it early if it does not attract sufficient attention, but I think there is a need to form a clearer consensus on this source and that's why I've started this RfC. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:37, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

JBL, considering that all of your recent contributions to this noticeboard are complaining about RfC's rather than any meaningful additions, maybe you should just unwatch the page like you said you would?. Business Insider is used over 12,000 times making it have a similar number of citations to Fox News, not just some random source. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:51, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Hemiauchenia, I think the appropriate place for a personal comment like that would have been my talk-page. This page is not on my watchlist, I ceased participating in the discussion you mention, and I have not left more than one or two comments in any discussion since. The fact of the matter is a lot of people seem to create RfCs here that are totally unnecessary, and this is one of them. Try to complete the following sentence in a way that isn't absurd: "Having this RfC come to the conclusion AP prefers will make the world better in the following way: ...." It is my impression that, once upon a time, discussion on this page was concentrated on the use of particular sources in particular contexts. That was valuable; this is not. --JBL (talk) 01:34, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I note that they do have a corrections policy.[116] Though it seems to be oriented towards authors making corrections, not readers asking for corrections. Adoring nanny (talk) 11:05, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Is there any evidence of actual fabrication, that would make it worth serious consideration of deprecation? - David Gerard (talk) 11:31, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

@David Gerard: I haven't seen any; it more seems like they are accused of playing "fast and loose" with their reporting, but no indication that they have outright lied. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:45, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Although, MediaBiasFactCheck indicates that at least one BI story ([117]) was rated false by FactCheck.org here. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:05, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

@David Gerard: There now is evidence of at least publishing false stories, if not "fabricating". See Chetsford's comments and my most recent !vote above. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:42, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Another source to throw into the mix: https://www.imediaethics.org/business-insider-will-give-anyone-anonymity/, although it's quite old and the relevant policy may have changed. And another, about their native advertising: https://archives.cjr.org/the_audit/business_insider_goes_native.php AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:47, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

House of Parliament raw data for dates of birth of living people

Is this raw data an acceptable reference for the date of birth of living people? It seems to fail WP:DOB in that it's not widely published by reliable sources (is raw data really a reliable source?). At least one entry on the list is incorrect, see Talk:Paul Maskey#Birthday. FDW777 (talk) 19:46, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Given the contradiction between the sources of the two legislative bodies, I would defer to the MP's personal posts. This is a case of generally reliable does not mean always reliable. Generally speaking, though, I would trust a legislative body for basic information about its members. ~ El D. (talk to me) 17:26, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The problem is the information doesn't even appear on profile pages, it's raw data. Is it even "published" in any meaningful way? FDW777 (talk) 17:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

That list is clearly unsuitable as the sole source for DOBs or frankly anything for anyone covered by BLP. It would probably be better to have asked this at WP:BLP/N than here though. Nil Einne (talk) 10:58, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

worldofbuzz.com

• COVID-19 pandemic in Asia (removed)
• COVID-19 pandemic in Johor (removed)
• COVID-19 pandemic in Malaysia (removed)
• Timeline of the COVID-19 pandemic in Malaysia (removed)
• Chinese wedding door games (removed)
• Escalator (removed)
• Taco Bell (removed)

• 2 Hours Doing Nothing
• 2018 AFF U-19 Youth Championship
• 2019 Kim Kim River toxic pollution
• 2020 Malaysian political crisis
• Acrolein
• Agoda
• Andrew Barnes (businessman)
• Cendol
• Charmaine Chew
• Concerns and controversies at the 2019 Southeast Asian Games
• Dabie Mountain Regional Medical Centre
• Democratic Action Party
• Dzulkefly Ahmad
• Fatou Samba
• Finger heart
• Four-day week
• Huawei Member Center
• Kim Jong-hyun (singer)
• List of reportedly haunted locations
• Michelle Yeoh (socialite)
• Mimaland
• Miss International Malaysia
• Musa Aman
• Noor Hisham Abdullah
• Pasukan Gerakan Khas
• Qiu Jun (bodybuilder)
• Rachel Yeoh
• Soo Wincci
• Syarqiyyah palace
• Tabung Harapan Malaysia
• The Exchange 106
• Tous Les Jours
• You Zhangjing
• Draft:Amber Court
• Draft:Influasia
• Draft:MR. D.I.Y.
• User:Influasiamy/sandbox
• User:Shanechew/sandbox

worldofbuzz is a dubious source: it appears to solicit unreviewed contributions: https://worldofbuzz.com/contribute/ Maybe this is overkill but I wanted to put something here before removing it from multiple articles. Also see probable attempt at self-promotion [118] and User:Influasiamy/sandbox ☆ Bri (talk) 14:31, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

• It's a news aggregator. If you look at its stories, they're all copied from other news sources. So for example [119] in Agoda is copied from [120] The original sources are all credited and linked, so they're easy to find, and no doubt some will be reliable - but we should be using the originals. Black Kite (talk) 13:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Tapol bulletin

I'm working on the Izaac Hindom article and I found out about the Tapol bulletin (you can search the whole collection in [121] here). As you can read in the article, the bulletin was published by a group of political prisoners based in London (Tapol itself means political prisoners in Indonesian) to monitor human rights issues for Indonesia. But what makes me doubt the reliability of the source is when I read this particular edition.

Tapol accuses Hindom of "Javanization" (you could read on page 6 of the bulletin) and cites Kompas, 26 October 1982 as their source. When I check Kompas, 26 October 1982, the title of the headline reads as "Transmigration in Irian Jaya not "Javanization"" (Transmigrasi di Irja Bukan "Jawanisasi"). Furthermore, they quote Hindom (a Papuan) as saying "This will give birth to a new generation of people without curly hair, sowing the seeds for greater beauty." (note that curly hair is the main characteristic of Papuans, so he's basically saying that Papuans are ugly) The bulletin also quoted Hindom stating Irian Jaya (Greater Irian) will soon become Irian Java, or Javanese Irian. However, a Tempo source noted that this was only a joke.

Aside from the controversial statements, Tapol is frequently cited by journals, such as this and this.

Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 15:46, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

I'd say it's probably fine, based on how it is cited by journals, but that it should be attributed in the article. The only thing that seems that concerning is the first point you mentioned, but without further context (for example, the specific text in both of the articles) I'd say it's fine. Zoozaz1 talk 04:30, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Ukrainian sources

Since the source review process lists several Russian sources as deprecated (e.g. RIA Novosti, TASS, RT), I find it curious that there are no similar Ukrainian sources so listed. In reviewing the products of UNIAN.ua, for example, there are instances of news reporting that are no different than those on the mentioned Russian news sites - other than they are from a differing point of view. Why are official Ukrainian media sources any more reliable or credible on matters of importance to Ukraine than are Russian ones? The deprecation of at least the listed Russian sites (without topical limitation) functionally amounts to Wikipedia censorship because it blankedly removes those sources from being acceptable as source citations. On the basis of Wikipedia policy relevant citation citing these source have been removed. In this way a limited number of Wikipedia editors have pronounced as pariah sources those with whose reporting it is politically acceptable to disagree. It would be better for the fundamental stated purposes of Wikipedia (free exchange of information) to allow free citation which would allow the readership to engage in a discussion of veracity and/or come to their own conclusions.Moryak (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

There are no sources as far as I know which systematically spread Ukrainian propaganda (not even UNIAN, which I would say is reliable for reporting everything which happens in Ukraine as far as it does not touch Russian-Ukrainian relations - like TASS or Interfax in Russia; may be the only things which are published by the institute of National Remembrance are close to pure propaganda). On the other hand, most Ukrainian sources which call themselves mass-media are nothing more than blog-agregators, they just repost twits and Facebook posts of celebrities without making any effort to fact-check. In this sense, I do not think any of these qualify as reliable sources.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:09, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't find this curious. I don't even understand the essence of your question. Are you saying that based on the fact that some sources are found generally unreliable, we should recognize other as generally unreliable? Some sources are just not useless (i.e. Russia Today), because they spread false, distorted or partial information. We don't lose anything when we don't use them. And I don't see any problem with UNIAN.--Renat (talk) 08:34, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

RT is a public-facing, foreign focused, TV channel and as a result, it faces more pressure from its government to distort reporting and is more likely to be used as a source by Wikipedia. UNIAN is a news agency meaning that it largely provides news to other news organisations and its output seems to be mainly domestic. UNIAN is used by foreign RSes (eg [122]), so I would categorise it along the lines of RIA Novosti, TASS, or Xinhua as reliable but to be used with caution in certain areas. The fact that is privately owned may well confer greater reliability. Seems to be not worth listing on RSP. ~ El D. (talk to me) 14:21, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Somali Dispatch

The "About us" section says "Somali Dispatch is the first full fledged English website that addresses the unique information needs of the growing English speaking masses in the Diaspora. Established in 2019, the website currently receives thousands of visitors a day. It is independently run and can be accessed and contributed to from around the world." It hints at some connection to CKCU FM in Ottawa, Canada, but not much else in terms of credentials. The attributed author for all of the articles is one of two names: "Admin" or "Mohamed Adan" which suggests this is a website maintained by one or two people. It's currently being used to source Somali president Mohamed Abdullahi Mohamed's kinship with Siad Barre, which isn't supported by any other sources that approach WP:RS (it's alluded to in a few partisan Medium articles, that's about it). OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 01:33, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:BLPSPS would forbid this usage even if this were otherwise reliable, which I doubt. (t · c) buidhe 07:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I can't see anything about it that would qualify it to be used in any way. Doug Weller talk 12:37, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• Not reliable It doesn't have a gatekeeping process, as noted by OP; it does not have a physical presence by which it could be held liable for what it publishes (no address listed on website and WHOIS has a privacy mask); it is not recognized by RS as RS (a cursory Google News search for "Somali Dispatch" and "somalidispatch.com" doesn't return results in RS). Chetsford (talk) 19:25, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Is a statement by Governor Cuomo enough to call an incident terrorism at Terrorism in the United States ?

It's this edit[123] that concerns me (I've reverted it twice). Its article, Monsey Hanukkah stabbing also only has Cuomo as a source. In October 2019 we had an RfC at Talk:List of terrorist incidents[124] that determined that list entries should only be included if "The incident is notable (has a stand-alone article), and (2) the consensus of WP:RSes describe the incident as "terrorism"." I guess as Terrorism in the United States albeit being a standalone list is technically not covered by the RfC, the principal still seems sensible. It's also relevant that the perpetrator " had a long history of serious mental illness and had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia the year before the attack. He was charged in state court with five counts of attempted murder and one count of first-degree burglary, and in federal court on federal hate crime charges. A federal judge ruled him incompetent to stand trial on the federal charges." He is now in a mental facility. I'm not convinced that any act by such a person can be classified as terrorism, and I'll also note that by calling this terrorism we are calling him a terrorist, which looks to me like a BLP violation. Doug Weller talk 12:29, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• No. The Governor's comments are not themselves an RS, if other sources aren't calling it that it doesn't belong on the list. GirthSummit _(blether) 12:52, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

  I'll add that I agree it's a BLP violation, which would imply a WP:3RRNO exemption for anyone reverting its addition unless RSes are presented. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:02, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• No per Girth Summit, and also - why is the perpetrator's skin colour mentioned in the first sentence? Black Kite (talk) 12:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• No It might be for his claim it is (with attribution), but as he is not the US government nor a federal agency hard to see why its relevant.Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• No We base the description on weight, that is, how it is unusually described in news or expert sources. Another way of looking at it is that government officials use non-standards definitions of terrorism. TFD (talk) 16:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes with qualifications to the general question but No in the specific use case. As terrorism is an attack on the corpus of the state, the controlling mind of the state is a RS to qualify whether or not a particular act is terrorism. Cuomo is the head of state and chief of government of New York and is the personification of the state of New York. That said, I agree that linking the term to named individuals - instead of a more general, amorphous incident - would be a BLP violation and should be policed in the manner done in this instance. As well, if it's clear he was using hyperbole, speaking in a personal capacity, or a preponderance of RS dispute the incident as terrorism, it would be inappropriate to describe it as such. Unrelated to this question, I agree with Black Kite, etc., that the race of the alleged perpetrator should not be mentioned in the first sentence (or at all, unless it's directly relevant to the attack). Chetsford (talk) 19:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• No, largely per others. Statements by politicians, no matter how prominent, are not generally reliable for statements in Wikipedia's voice, particularly in contentious situations. Cuomo is a primary source whose views likely warrant mention, but that's about it. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• No, a statement by a politician or leader is absolutely not usable as a source for article-voice statements of fact. If it is covered by secondary sources, we can cover it, with attribution, as their opinion, but stating that something is terrorism in the article voice requires an WP:RS we can use for statements of fact - something with fact-checking and proper editorial controls - calling it terrorism in their article voice, and a quote from a politician doesn't qualify for that. Heads of state are individuals, and random quotes from them are not, themselves, reliable sources for statements of fact, since they don't qualify as "published" for WP:RS purposes; that is to say, nobody is exerting editorial control or fact-checking over Cuomo's statements here. --Aquillion (talk) 12:24, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Irish Times and Irish Examiner

Are these Irish newspapers reliable references at John Brady (Sinn Féin politician) (Irish Times article and Irish Examiner article) and Claire Kerrane (Irish Times article and Irish Examiner article)? Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 17:34, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, standard, reliable newsorgs. (t · c) buidhe 17:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• I second, @buidhe, both totally fine.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Daily Kos election predictions

The Daily Kos has only been discussed three times. In 2015, there was consensus that it was unreliable for its election predictions. Despite this, its predictions are currently being used in articles on house races both this election and last election. Is there still consensus that it is unreliable for these? Username6892 19:22, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• Unreliable Daily Kos is both user-generated and aggregated content and doesn't have the reliability background that electoral aggregators like FiveThirtyEight have, so yeah, i'd consider it unreliable still and should be removed from those articles. Silverseren^C 19:26, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

  Silver seren, their election predictions are not user generated. They have staff that handle that. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:31, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• Reliable per WP:RSOPINION: "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact." Predictions are always expressions of opinion and, in the use case examples given, these opinions are credited as being those of Daily Kos. Whether or not Daily Kos' predictions are important enough to include in the articles in question is a separate matter (I'd argue it's not and should be removed), but if it's determined they are then the Daily Kos is a RS for its own predictions. Chetsford (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2020 (UTC); edited 19:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• Wouldn't Daily Kos also just be unreliable in general due to it being user-generated content? The only potential exception being staff-written articles, but i'd be wary even on those. I mean, heck, I've written articles on the site before. Silverseren^C 19:44, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to agree, Silver seren, that the Daily Kos is potentially not RS for statements of external fact. However, my position is that Daily Kos is RS for statements of internal fact; that is, to confirm whether or not it wrote something. In this case we're not saying it's a fact that Arizona 1 is "Likely D" in 2018, we're merely saying it's a fact that Daily Kos said that Arizona 1 is "Likely D" in 2018 for some reason or another (the reference link in the article indicates this conclusion was written by staff and represents the blog itself, as opposed to a random contributor; I believe contributor posts are labeled "Community"). Of course, whether or not that's even relevant to include in the article may be a separate question. Chetsford (talk) 20:17, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• But if the argument is just "it's the opinion of the author", then couldn't that statement be made about literally every site that we do consider unreliable? Especially in this case, the "opinion" nature of it is questionable, since it's reporting on election statistics, which is information about facts. So either it is reliable or unreliable for reporting facts. Silverseren^C 20:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• "But if the argument is just "it's the opinion of the author", then couldn't that statement be made about literally every site that we do consider unreliable?" Yes, per WP:SELFSOURCE, virtually any source is reliable as proof that source wrote something. In other words, even a questionable source can be reliable for claims of internal fact ("The Daily Kos has written that the Earth is flat.") even if it's not reliable for claims of external fact ("The Earth is flat.").

"since it's reporting on election statistics, which is information about facts" In the use case examples given, I don't see that it's reporting on election statistics. It appears to be predicting future human behavior by rating a particular congressional seat as "Lean D" or "Safe R" prior to an actual election occurring. Predictions of future human behavior are almost always opinions and are undefinable as either fact or fiction due to the linear perception of time the humans editing this encyclopedia experience. Whatever means TDK used to form its opinion — polling aggregates, quantitative analysis of historic trends, Delphi technique, Ouiji board, etc. — is not for us to judge. We are simply noting that it is a fact that The Daily Kos rated Arizona 1 as Lean D; we are not saying it is a fact that Arizona 1 is Lean D (a claim that is undefinable as either fact or fiction). That doesn't mean we're justified to include TDK's opinion in the grid or, indeed, anywhere in the article. But the decision to dis-include it is a matter of WP:DUE, in my opinion, not of RS. Chetsford (talk) 03:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

• Daily Kos has multiple components. User-contributed diaries are only suitable for referencing what the author says as a self-published source (some Democratic politicians have verified accounts that have posted there). Staff content on the mainpage is subject to editorial control, but still generally has a liberal bias and should be avoided for claims of neutral facts. Daily Kos Elections (formerly the Swing State Project) has historically been a separate group from the mainpage and less partisan, but I'm not still sure if that's the case. While I see sources that view their election data as reliable (Cook, 538), I don't see the same regarding their predictions. Without a secondary source discussing the predictions, I would not use them. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:17, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

The Diplomat

User:Horse Eye's Back added a statement on the reputation of People's Armed Police in Special:Diff/989899561.

The statement is as follows: The People's Armed Police are both feared and mocked by the Chinese public. It comes from an article from the Diplomat.

The author of the Diplomat analysis/opinion piece in question, Bonnie Girard, stated that [i]n general, it is safe to say that the PAP is not well-tolerated by a majority of Chinese, who both fear the PAP’s right to make arbitrary arrests and mock its members for their often brutish, thuggish tactics, implying that the PAP as a whole has the power to enforce law and make arrest. Furthermore, Girard does not provide evidence for this claim in the Diplomat article.

Previous publications states that [e]xcept the MPS-led active service troops within the PAP, such as the Border Defense, Firefighting, and Guard Corps, other PAP units do not have the power to impose sanctions (e.g., arrest and detain) , and that [t]here were law enforcement services that reported to the MPS: the Public Security Border Defense Force...; Public Security Firefighting Force...; and and Public Security Guards Force... The reforms addressed this problem in part by divesting the PAP of most law enforcement and economic functions

User:Horse Eye's Back stated that The author is in fact a professional and subject matter expert (Girard is widely published as a quick JSTOR check can confirm) where au:("Bonnie Girard") on JSTOR and au:Bonnie Girard on WorldCat yields no result.

Girard's claim contradicts what the previous published sources known about the PAP and therefore exceptional. Does this source qualify as multiple high-quality sources required by WP:EXCEPTIONAL? -Mys_721tx (talk) 03:10, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Are these estimates reliable?

• Source: [125]
• Article: Kurds => infobox
• Content: Infobox => current cited source #2.
• Is it a reliable source? Can we use it? --Wario-Man (talk) 05:57, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

It's quite likely to be a disputed figure, given the tendency of Turkey and other countries to minimise minority statistics, and the fact that it is possible to (somewhat justifiably) divide the Kurds between smaller ethnic units on linguistic or religious grounds. However, it seems to me to be RS in and of itself, I'd look at the minimum number and see if you find RS that give you a lower number, if so include both numbers in the infobox, perhaps with attribution in the text. Boynamedsue (talk) 13:30, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

The issue is that source itself does not have any specific author to see if it's written by a reliable/expert person or not. It does not cite any other stats, estimates, or reports. It's not clear where those numbers come from. e.g. it claims: "In addition, the Kurdish communities of Khorassan (1.5 million) and Tehran (0.5 million)..." Look at Tehran. It mentioned all ethnic groups with notable population (Persians, Azeris, and Mazanderani) and the related content is sourced. But Kurds are just mentioned as other ethnic groups in that city. How there is zero mention of a considerable number like 500,000 Kurds if that estimate is close to actual number of their population in Tehran? It's not something that a gov can't hide or ignore. Also why only Kurds ignored? That does not make any sense. Kurds of Khorasan does have two reliable sources with estimates about 500,000 to 1,000,000. Both sources (Iranica and Brill) are legit. But again, where does that Khorassan (1.5 million) come from? Per what study/research? Even I looked at this Who are the Kurds? and the lead paragraph (Medes = Kurds) proves that this institutkurde.org does not look like some kind of unbiased and academic organization. --Wario-Man (talk) 18:31, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree that it is inferior to an Academic source, if one that contradicts it exists, but the Tehran thing doesn't look out of whack. Tehran's metro area is 16 million, half a million Kurds does not seem unlikely, if we include children of Kurdish immigrants to the city. As for the Medes thing, they actually say "In the 7th century BC, the Medes, the Kurds' equivalent of the Gauls for the French...", that is a reference to geography, ancestry and cultural perception. The French =/= The Gauls. Boynamedsue (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

'Sludge' magazine article on Douglas Murray's video for PragerU

In 2018, Sludge magazine ran an article[126] about the video Douglas Murray (author) made for Prager University "The Suicide of Europe", which was published on PragerU's website and on YouTube. Note that the video has 7 million plus videos on PragerU's website and is, by a considerable margin, the most-viewed video when you type "Douglas Murray" into YoutTube's search bar. The Sludge article was highly critical of the video, saying, among other things, that its rhetoric of 'suicide' and 'annihilation' "evokes the common white nationalist trope of 'white genocide'" says that Murray "energizes white nationalists" and takes issue with some of the specific claims made in the video. Frankly, I believe that this source is being repeatedly removed from Murray's wiki page for ideological rather than evidentiary reasons. Other sources from Middle East Eye, Southern Poverty Law Center and Georgetown University's Bridge Initiative,[127] which aims to document anti-Muslim sentiment, were repeatedly removed from Murray's page with scant justification as well. I've engaged in discussions on Murray's talk page but they've proved fairly fruitless.

A few reasons why I think the Sludge article is a reliable source:

• the credentials of the writer, Alex Kotch, are impressive - he's written for The Guardian, Newsweek, International Business Times, VICE...[128]
• Kotch interviews Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Center of Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League for the article - they're hardly a fringe or marginal group. Check this NPR interview where Pitcavage is described as an expert with decades of experience [129]
• Sludge is a newish source (founded 2018) but their "about" page looks highly professional and is unusually transparent about their funding model [130]. The only current listed members of the Sludge team - it seems like Kotch has moved on - are Donald Shaw [131] and David Moore [132] and both have quite extensive experience in political journalism

Sludge has been addressed in these forums before, in 2018.[133] However, Sludge is now two years old and for the reasons listed, I think it deserves to be treated as a fairly reliable source - and I am just treating as a source of opinion, not looking to speak in Wikipedia's voice.Noteduck (talk) 06:46, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

A two man band barely seems any better than simply being self-published, regardless of the authors credentials, and therefore should not be used for claims regarding living persons per Wikipedia:BLPSPS. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:52, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: I disagree with the "two-man band" assessment. Sludge may only have two paid employees but they certainly have other contributors - eg see [134] See also that they've had other reporters at different times - under the heading "The Sludge team"[135]. Furthermore, I don't believe they're anything like self-published when they mention that they receive funding from a 501(c)3 non-profit organization called the Participatory Politics Foundation - see again[136] I think if Sludge is to be reject as an unreliable source, it has quite regrettable implications for any small-scale journalism project Noteduck (talk) 10:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Funding seems to be a red herring here. We are talking about whether they are self-published not who funds them. They could be funded by the New York Times, the Washigton Post, CNN, the Guardian, the BBC etc but if all the content was written by Alex Kotch and they were also the one who decided what content to publish, it would still self-published. This doesn't seem to be what happens here or at least that story lists both a writer and an editor, so the question is whether that editorial process is robust enough to allay concerns. Nil Einne (talk) 10:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

AS said above it does not seem to really be an SPS, but what is their reputation for accuracy?11:00, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Given that Sludge has only been around for two years it's not surprising that there have not been many discussions regarding its veracity as a source. I did find this[137] which lists Sludge as having a "left-wing bias" but gives it a higher "factual reporting" rating than, say, The Guardian, so I'm not sure what we can infer from that. However, we can conclude that:

• the story lists both a writer and an editor, so there was some degree of editorial control
• both the writer and editor are highly experienced journalists and not amateurs
• the journalist mentions that he interviewed Mark Pitcavage in his capacity as an expert working for the ADL. Would Pitcavage have lent his name and the ADL's considerable clout to a publication he considered low quality?

IMO, Sludge seems small-scale but fairly intellectually rigorous and reliable. Noteduck (talk) 11:19, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

As bias is not a reason to reject, but factual reporting is a reason to keep, its an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 11:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

The two man nature of the source was also raised by Kyohyi in this BLP discussion about Murray [[138]]. If nothing else such a new and limited source shouldn't be given weight as it isn't well established and is being used to make negative, critical claims about a BLP subject. Also, when one reviews the article itself the writing style leans heavily on using appeals to emotion and loaded terms rather than facts and logic. That also says this isn't a good source for controversial claims. Springee (talk) 11:58, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

• Not reliable, which is not to say it's unreliable. Unlike journalists or academics, Wikipedians can't engage in independent content analysis of a source, its funding, the credentials of its staff, etc., to determine if it's reliable or not; our only modus is to see if reliable sources consider it reliable. A cursory search on Google News of the phrases "according to Sludge" and "Sludge Magazine reported" finds no examples of RS citing Sludge (I did find one example of Sludge being cited in the Daily Hampshire Gazette, but not by the Daily Hampshire Gazette - it was in an op-ed column [139]). As it's only two years old this is probably to be expected and, while it's not reliable now, that's of a qualitatively different value than saying it's unreliable. At some point in the future it may become reliable. Chetsford (talk) 15:45, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Springee: You'll have to be more specific about what you mean by "appeals to emotion and loaded terms" as distinct from "facts and logic". As I've noted on Murray's discussion page, this must be placed within a worrying context of multiple sources that don't accord with Murray's self-identification as a moderate conservative being removed[140]

@Chetsford: Here's the Sludge video being cited by Georgetown University's Bridge Initiative [141]. This is an academic project with an impressive team credited with writing its articles[142]. The Bridge Initiative is another source that has been repeatedly removed from Douglas Murray's page.Noteduck (talk) 00:20, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

The Georgetown reference is good and, I agree, RS. But a single example of a source being cited by RS is insufficient to demonstrate that source is considered reliable by other reliable sources (plural). If I look hard enough I can find a single example of a RS sourcing Breitbart [143]. I'd typically like to see a potential source be cited by enough RS that it could, itself, pass N if not for the absence of CORPDEPTH. That would usually mean 4-5 recent (i.e. last 12-24 months) examples. That said, I would have no problem using the Bridge Initiative fact sheet in the article directly (assuming it was WP:DUE, of course). Chetsford (talk) 02:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@Chetsford: Sludge seems to co-publish and get re-published by multiple other left-leaning news organizations.[144][145][146] Here's another few articles from different sources approvingly citing Sludge[147][148][149][150]

OK, you convinced me. I don't believe Jacobin Magazine is RS. The Salon story seems to be reporting about Sludge, rather than citing Sludge, which isn't a demonstration that it considers Sludge reliable. That said, American Prospect and Politico are, of course, RS, as is Project Censored which CS Indy was syndicating. Combined with the Bridge Initiative citation, that's sufficient to convince me Sludge is RS. Of course, to include something in a BLP it still must surmount WP:DUE and if the material in question only appears in Sludge and nowhere else that may not be sufficient, but that's a discussion that can be had at the article's Talk page, I imagine. Chetsford (talk) 03:06, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure that goes quite to the level of establishing the source is generally reliable, especially when we are using it to say negative things about a BLP subject. I do agree that it didn't establish weight for inclusion regardless. Springee (talk) 13:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@Springee: the relevant question is not whether the source is generally reliable but whether the source is reliable in context. The argument in terms of weight is very weak. As I've mentioned in this thread, the video has 7 million plus videos on PragerU's website and is, by a considerable margin, the most-viewed video when you type "Douglas Murray" into YoutTube's search bar. Here is a mention of the video in Media Matters[151] and the LA Times[152] For academic mentions of the video, see Simon Strick, "The Alternative Right, Masculinities, and Ordinary Affect" inRight-Wing Populism and Gender eds. Gabriele Dietze, Julia Roth, p 217 [153], and of course, the Bridge Initiative's page on PragerU[154] Noteduck (talk) 03:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I think you should ask if this source is DUE in context. Sludge is clearly not a source with a lot of weight. Thus an opinion of this video published by Sludge should not be given weight in this article. If other sources (and Media Matters is not a good one) say this video is significant, fine, use them. I think what you are missing is this is a BLP and thus the standards for including negative content are high. Note that the LA Times article about PragerU only says Murray was featured in a video. It doesn't say the things Sludge says about the video or Murray. Per the recent article talk page post it appears there are a number of academic/academic press articles that talk about Murray so it shouldn't be an issue to find better sources. However, it would probably be best to avoid sources that don't discuss Murray in detail. By that I mean a source that says, "some far right writers such as ... Murray." are generally poor. They are in a sense, mentions in passing. A better case would be a source that says, "Murray is X because they published [this] and [this]." The difference is in the first case the source just tells us something and we have only the author's credentials to back that claim. In the second case the author shows via an explanation why something is the case. We should be doing the same thing in Wikipedia articles. It sounds like there should be sufficient sourcing for this so no reason to use lower quality (either in terms of general quality/weight like Sludge or ones where Murray is secondary to the topic of the article). Springee (talk) 03:30, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Springee: You've again asserted that Sludge is low quality/weight when this noticeboard discussion has established the opposite. You're setting the evidentiary bar unattainably high. You haven't responded to my points about the high visibility of PragerU nor the millions of views Murray's video has received. The central theme of the Sludge article has been echoed again and again in academic and journalistic commentary. @Buidhe: I'd be interested to know your thoughts on thisNoteduck (talk) 03:45, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes I've asserted it. This noticeboard discussion does not say the opposite. That the PragerU video has millions of views doesn't make the Sludge assessment of that video DUE. If the NYT did an assessment of that video then I would agree it's DUE. If the central theme of the Sludge article is echoed by better source why should we cite Sludge? Springee (talk) 03:48, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

"You've again asserted that Sludge is low quality/weight when this noticeboard discussion has established the opposite." The point of discussion is to exchange different ideas, not to get everyone organized into battalion formation. Disagreement is permitted on Wikipedia. Chetsford (talk) 03:55, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Noteduck has restored the disputed content sourced to Sludge. I do not believe this discussion reached a consensus that Sludge would be either reliable or DUE for contentious claims about a BLP subject. Springee (talk) 02:41, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Are you talking about this edit? It looks like there eight other sources, several of them (at a glance, at least) academic in nature - it doesn't seem like Sludge is the locus of dispute there anyway. --Aquillion (talk) 16:40, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• In terms of WP:USEBYOTHERS, I see [155], [156], [157], [158], [159], [160]. I feel like with that degree of use by others for a relatively new site, people would have to produce actual evidence that they've been getting things wrong in order to argue that it's not reliable. But as I pointed out above, Sludge is not the only source for the disputed content anyway - I see several other high-quality sources. At a glance I'm also not seeing the problem with the Bridgetown source mentioned above, which can be used to cite this via a secondary source anyway. --Aquillion (talk) 16:40, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Fryderyk Chopin Institute

Is the Fryderyk Chopin Institute reliable for claims about pianists? Its page on Fou Ts'ong refers to an album called The Pianistic Art of Fou Ts'ong – which apparently has quite complimentary things to say about Fou in its liner notes – which I cannot verify the existence of in other reliable sources, at WorldCat, or at Discogs. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 03:14, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• Reliable The institute's materials have been cited by RS about both Chopin and other pianists [161], [162], [163]; there has been a minor point of controversy as to whether or not it may have obfuscated one historical perspective on Chopin [164], but even that question seems unresolved and not so expansive as to indicate a possible falsification of information. Rather, it seems to be a framing controversy, which is a routine dispute in historicism. Chetsford (talk) 04:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

  Hm, perhaps the key lies with the fact that the album was, according to their profile, a "private issue". Fwiw, it's also referred to in this obit from a major Portuguese newspaper (as A arte pianística …) I'd never heard of a non-public record album before, but you learn new things every day … AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 04:19, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

  Amongst other things, the Institute runs the International Chopin Piano Competition. There was a controversy about the early elimination of Ivo Pogorelich in 1980. The Institute organises The Chopin Review which lists its editorial board, including John Rink, Professor of Music Performance at the University of Cambridge. He is reliable on pianists. Here is a detailed article citing Fou Ts'ong where Rink is mentioned. I haven't looked at the obituaries of Fou Ts'ong. Mathsci (talk) 01:52, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Designers & Dragons

Is Designers & Dragons [165] (various editions) an RS for (a) general information, (b) BLPs about game designers, (c) non-BLP information about games? Chetsford (talk) 04:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• Not reliable for A, B, or C. RS do not consider it, or the author, RS, to wit: (1) a cursory check on Google News finds it cited by no RS (there is a single mention, in a quotation, in a WIRED article); (2) a check on JSTOR, newspapers.com, Google Books, and Google News finds no non-fiction writing bylined by the author (Shannon Applecline) in RS; there is no evidence the book has been reviewed in any mainstream publication (e.g. Publisher's Weekly, New York Review of Books, etc.) or an indexed, scholarly journal. In addition, this is the only non-fiction book published by the publishing house ("Evil Hat Productions"), and the book's cover page lists only an author, no editor, indicating it is all but WP:SELFPUBLISHED. Chetsford (talk) 04:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• Looks reliable-enough (for all but notability determination since it's encyclopedic in scope). Analog Game Studies is a reliable source and they cite Shannon Applecline in three different papers. I would imagine any other game studies journal would be the place to look. -- GreenC 19:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

  "Analog Game Studies is a reliable source Is it? When I run it through Google News I don't find a single RS that references it. If it's purporting to be a scholarly journal, it might help to know who indexes it. I've checked Web of Science and PubMed and didn't find it indexed by either; not sure if it's worthwhile for me to keep searching other indices. Chetsford (talk) 20:37, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

  They do peer review. Have an academic focus. Have editorial oversight. I think you are pushing the bar pretty high for a gaming topic. Are you expecting it to be in PubMed for biomedical literature? -- GreenC 02:53, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

  Right. Chetsford seems to have the eccentric opinion that WP:MEDRS applies to role-playing game publications and creators. He may not fully understand the limited scope of the topic. Newimpartial (talk) 02:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

  By the way, Chetsford, your claim that the book's cover page lists only an author, no editor, indicating it is all but WP:SELFPUBLISHED. Please look on the second page of the "free sample" version you linked to, which provides the information you ask for - and more. Perhaps retract the misinformation you accidentally provided? Newimpartial (talk) 03:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

  "Are you expecting it to be in PubMed for biomedical literature?" I'm expecting it to be indexed somewhere like any reputable, non-predatory journal - it could be EBSCO databases, Arts and Humanities Citation Index, anywhere really. If you could maybe just tell me who indexes it that'd help. Thanks. "I think you are pushing the bar pretty high for a gaming topic." Unfortunately, gaming topics do not have the privilege of a only having to follow a set of watered-down, "junior" guidelines for RS. They need to follow the same standards as all other topics. Particularly when dealing with BLP. Chetsford (talk) 03:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

  Chetsford, are you under the impression that there is a different standard for the reliability of independently-published secondary sources to be used in BLPs than there is for non-BLP articles? I was under the impression that the main difference between BLP and non-BLP sourcing is that self-published material - apart from that published by the BLP subject - could not be used to make claims about a BLP subject. In other words the INDEPENDENT requirement is stronger. Are you aware of other differences? Newimpartial (talk) 03:27, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

  Given the journal is peer reviewed, editorial control and academic focus I am satisfied it is reliable for Wikipedia for this purpose. This high bar of indexing in certain commercial databases is arbitrary. More arbitrariness: the journal is held in the holdings of the University of Hamburg and in the catalog of Stanford University. The editors are professors (PhDs) who teach in academia (UC Irvine, SUNY Delhi, University of Cincinnati). They do peer reviews. It is published by Carnegie Mellon University. -- GreenC 18:15, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

  "Peer review" is not a golden ticket to reliability. Our WP:GAN articles are peer-reviewed, that doesn't make them reliable. To be quite frank, I have never encountered a reputable journal that has not been indexed by even one major indexing service. In any case, however, this appears to have devolved into six degrees of separation as the question of whether or not this Analog webzine/journal is RS is a separate issue from the non-reliability of Designers & Dungeons. So we may have to agree to disagree. Chetsford (talk) 23:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

  User:GreenC, "agree to disagree" is Chetsford's catchphrase for when he decides to abandon the discussion of a topic based on evidence and policy. You'll get used to it. Newimpartial (talk) 00:58, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

• Reliable for A, B and C - the previous discussion of this source found that it was Generally reliable as a source for facts on games and game companies. Not recommended for use in biographies of living people or to support clearly controversial statements. In other words, the previous consensus was Yes to the current questions A and C and No to B. However, I do not see any policy-compliant objection presented in that discussion to the use of Designers & Dragons for non-controversial BLP information, so I would like to see the RSN finding corrected on that point.

Also, Chetsford who is posing this question now claims that the book's cover page lists only an author, no editor, indicating it is all but WP:SELFPUBLISHED. I do not know what publication Chetsford is looking at, but the four-volume version in my possession (ISBNs 978-1-61317-075-5, 978-1-61317-081-6, 978-61317-084-7 and 978-61317-087-8) credits in each case Shannon Appelcline as the author, John Adams as the editor, Evil Hat Productions as the publisher and 2014 as the copyright date (along with 9 other Evil Hat staff involved in the publication). Definitely not self-published, and independent except when dealing with Evil Hat Productions itself. Newimpartial (talk) 20:13, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Wired's write up on the book seems pretty positive for the case that it is an RS. [166] ~ El D. (talk to me) 23:38, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Golf course website

Can this[167] be used in golf course articles as to either the existence of a course or its ranking. An administrator @Billinghurst: has been removing it out of Beaconsfield Golf Club with the following explanations- 'site non-authoritative, requires accepting cookies,' 'these were spammed which was why they were removed', and 're-read the history, the original author didn't add the spam; look at who did and all the articles that they added the spam'....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:44, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Who ae they?Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Questionable as it appears, unless I'm reading it incorrectly, to be largely based on user-generated reviews [168]? Chetsford (talk) 20:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• They were link spammed us back in 2017 per User:COIBot/LinkReports/top100golfcourses.com with their rankings; we removed at the time. I don't see how their ranking criteria can be relied upon without evident criteria and by an experts, no evidence of expertise of rating, etc.. I see nothing that makes them a reliable source with where their information is sourced. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:04, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Nithyananda

Is this Telegraph India article a reliable source to use in this BLP? It's been used heavily in the article. Also, I think that page needs protection, but I'm not sure what kind or even if I'll be able to justify it again (I've successfully had it protected before), it'd be nice if someone looked into that. Thanks in advance. Please ping when you reply Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 14:30, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI, that article is already under pending confirmed protection. The Telegraph India article appears alright, it has quotations from him which should be attributed in the article as well if that hasn't been done. I don't see it being heavily used in the article though? Tayi Arajakate _Talk 20:17, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

New research on ancient indian history and dating

In last few years, some of the following people have come up with original research, theories - with widespread corraboration and proofs about India / Indic / Vedic civilization going back a few thousand years. This point of view aligns very well with the local knowledge and belief system as well, and when scientific proofs are provided, it helps convert "myth" into the proper history.

There are plenty of videos, articles, books - wherein these research have been collated. Some of them are cited here. Recently, I added a bit of information in the Mahabharata page based on this research. The edit was reverted and it was quoted that the author of the book (Nilesh Oak) is a chemical engineer and not an academic.

I would like to ask / understand - on what basis does a piece of information become acceptable in wikipedia ?

https://www.amazon.ca/Historic-Rama-Indian-Civilization-Pleistocene/dp/1494949466/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1C8CJCQ6ZDBG8&dchild=1&keywords=nilesh+oak&qid=1609346676&sprefix=nilesh%2Caps%2C329&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.ca/When-Did-Mahabharata-War-Happen-ebook/dp/B005CDXTTO/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1C8CJCQ6ZDBG8&dchild=1&keywords=nilesh+oak&qid=1609346694&sprefix=nilesh%2Caps%2C329&sr=8-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGyjvyXEKdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bsyi4zYHP0

https://sangamtalks.org/dr-raj-vedam/

https://www.amazon.ca/Breaking-India-Interventions-Dravidian-Faultlines/dp/8191067374/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1609346867&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/9385485016/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i6

Isnt this enough to prove that the so called "mainstream" indian history need to be revisited ? Raghav (talk)

Who is Neelakandan?Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Wow, see if Neelakandan is any help! Johnbod (talk) 17:06, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Well that does not mention he is an Author or historian.Slatersteven (talk) 17:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

No, and these Hindutva theories are decades old, not "new". P. N. Oak was publishing from the 1960s until his death in 2007. Johnbod (talk) 17:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

its not Neelakandan, rather Nilesh Oak (Nilesh Nilkanth Oak). And, thats just one person, my references are not limited to him. Rather, a different perspective on Indian history, which differs from the so called "mainstram". P N Oak and Nilesh Oak share a surname, nothing else - i.e. they are not related. Even if you want to refer to P N Oak's work - the scientific proofs coming up these days - are definitely new. Raghav (talk)

"by Neelakandan (Author)", so why is what not "Nilesh Nilkanth Oak" (and who is Nilesh Nilkanth Oak)?Slatersteven (talk) 19:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Not sure where you are getting this name - Neelkandan. Here is a bit about [Oak]

"Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines Hardcover – Jan. 1 2017 by Neelakandan (Author)" the Amazon page you linked to.Slatersteven (talk) 19:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

well, I was referring to the book, and the first author - Rajiv Malhotra. Raghav (talk)Raghav (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

AS to Mr Oak, what are his credentials?Slatersteven (talk) 19:40, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure what kind of credentials are you looking for ? The link I pointed to - google search page about him - isn’t that a starting point enough ? Raghav (talk)Raghav (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

OK, has he been published in any peer-reviewed astronomical journal, does he have any qualifications in Astronomy (or in fact any degrees in any subject)?Slatersteven (talk) 09:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Aravinda Neeklandan appears to be the author of the Breaking India book, and the only thing I could find about him is that he has a number of self published books and that he is at present an author with Swarajyamag (RSP entry) so yeah no, likely just another Hindutva proponent, please go through WP:PROFRINGE. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 20:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• This stuff is all utter rubbish, nationalistic pseudoscience on stilts. I've seen this character's fraudulent astronomical conclusions crop up at the Surya Siddhanta article. Anything touched by either Oak (this one or the older, more famous, and no less fringe P. N. Oak) should be deprecated utterly. GPinkerton (talk) 20:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

WDR, how are you able to discredit the works based on astronomical evidences ? Have you got evidence to the contrary? Btw, I m not suggesting that whatever he and others are saying is 100% correct; rather that this narrative is worth being considered as a perspective in the overall document on Mahabharata and Ramayana etc. Raghav (talk)Raghav (talk) 23:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

S raghu20, basically speaking, the "astronomical evidences" are just made up. The rest is all pareidolia. There is literally no reason why we should take some guy's internet ramblings as a "narrative worth being considered as a perspective in the overall document on Mahabharata and Ramayana". There are thousands of reliable scholars who have reputable qualifications in both Sanskritology and astronomy; there is literally no reason to credit these claims, which are based on nothing at all. GPinkerton (talk) 03:59, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Libcom.org

I am proposing that this source should be classified the same as Scribd.com for the same reasoning given for them on RSP or deprecated as their library is full of user uploaded contents and it is a copyright issue. It is a repository of numerous unauthorized scans hosted on its own server or a link farm of infringing links. I've had to remove multiple references to unauthorized infringing copyrighted book/magazine scans hosted on Libcom 1, 2, 3 another one more Graywalls (talk) 01:02, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Seems fair. Are there any subsections of the site that are more curated? Or are they all basically user uploads? If some are curated, it would remain a pretty useful resource for that smaller collection of documents. Jlevi (talk) 03:47, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

We should be wary of making a blanket policy that discourages general use of Libcom and instead work on a case by case basis. It is an incredibly rich and well curated repository and many of of the texts hosted there would not involve any copyright violations. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:34, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

That's a fair point. So I support making it red, rather than deprecate. There is a good amount of "uploaded" contents, as such it should be treated as WP:UGC and the fact they have plethora of infringing materials directly hosted is a huge problem in the same way Scribd is. Graywalls (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I think making a general assessment on Libcom is very open to misinterpretation. With Scribd, it is effectively a social media platform, but most of what Libcom puts out are reputable published books, as such the problem is people using Libcom as a link, not people using the stuff Libcom produces as a reference. Some sort of edit filter might be preferable so that the citations could be remade correctly. ~ El D. (talk to me) 23:28, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

This is my concern. Scribd wasn't primarily depreciated for copyright reasons but because Anyone can upload any document they'd like and there is no assurance that it hasn't been manipulated - anyone can upload anything there, making stuff hosted there suspect (an WP:RS concern) even if it purports to be an accurate copy of a legitimately published work. This concern isn't true for Libcom. Copyright violations are a concern, but they are not a WP:RS concern, so I would be opposed to adding any source to RSP in any context solely based on legal or copyright issues. That's not what RSP is for. --Aquillion (talk) 16:46, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

The Needle Drop

I already know how this discussion's going to go, but I'd like to once again revisit Anthony Fantano's reliability as a source. At this point, given that he's been called The Only Music Critic Who Matters" by the New York Times (AKA the most reliable of reliable sources), Wikipedia's refusal to acknowledge him as an album reviewer seems to based more on respect for precedent and/or stubbornness than his actual merits as a reliable source. It is both at odds with reality and inconsistent with the way other sources are treated.

Jim Sterling is self-published and self-reviewed, yet his reliability as a source for video game reviews is not questioned. Like Fantano, Sterling's work was published under someone else's brand before he moved into self-publushing. Unlike Fantano, his current practice of self-publishing is not used as an excuse to remove his reviews from articles. Can someone please explain why Jim Sterling is an acceptable opinion to cite for video game reviews when the same is not true for Fantano and music reviews? PDMagazineCoverUploading (talk) 02:22, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't call NYT "the most reliable of reliable sources". We tend to rate scholarly sources higher than journalism. (t · c) buidhe 03:52, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this and was thinking about opening a thread about this (Its worth noting that the "The Only Music Critic Who Matters" was subtitled "If you are under 25"). This isn't really a source reliability question, but more a discussion about whether Fantano's stature is equivalent to those of mainstream media outlets like Pitchfork for album reviews, and whether his opinions are due for inclusion in the reception section, but as we are discussing a particular source this is the appropriate noticeboard. The fact that he is a self-published source is irrelevant for his opinions on albums. Fantano's status as an independent music critic is Sui generis, that is to say, totally unique, there simply aren't any other contemporary independent music critics with anywhere near his stature, which rivals that in audience and reach of mainstream music publications. I don't think that Fantano's opinion should be mass edited into every album he has ever reviewed, but I don't think he should be banned either as he effectively is now. I think his reviews should also count towards the notability of any album he covers. Hemiauchenia (talk) 07:31, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't agreed with this. The problem with his reviews that he post them on YouTube, which is a self-published website and self-published websites are not reliable sources per WP:SPS. Basically anyone on YouTube can do a album review besides Anthony Fantano. I'm a fan of the guy but I don't think it should be allowed on Wikipedia, if it supported by a third party source. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 07:59, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@TheAmazingPeanuts:, Music reviews are subjective, Fantano isn't being cited to support statements of fact, but his opinion on music, ergo this isn't a reliability issue. In the 2020 RfC there was clear concensus against adding an edit filter to YouTube links because youtube is a platform, not a publisher and has no effect on source reliability. The question is a due weight one, namely, does Fantano have the same prominence as critics in professional publications that he deserves to be placed in the reception section, and does he qualify as a subject-matter expert? Arguably, he does. "Basically anyone on YouTube can do a album review besides Anthony Fantano" yeah but how many of those have recieved multiple profiles in high-profile publications? Fantanos status as an independent music critic is unique, and to just dismiss him as a "YouTuber" is silly. Hemiauchenia (talk) 08:25, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Further to this, we accept Robert Christgau's personal and private reviews on many album articles, and not just because it is listed on Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Sources. While NYT may not be a glowing endorsement, I tend to agree with the "marginal use" opinions offered here. We don't know if Fantano has an editor or makes retractions, or even if there may be payola involved in having Fantano offer a review, so I would not accept Fantano's word as final, but if an album has fewer than five reviews and Fantano has reviewed the work, it would benefit our project to include the review. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:38, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree, accepting Robert Christgau's self published reviews but not Fantano's is hypocritical. Fantano covers many less popular albums by smaller musicians and his views would enhance the reception sections of those articles. Hemiauchenia (talk) 08:51, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: That's not the same and it's not hypocritical. The thing is Robert Christgau has written his reviews on his website in this fashion and now on Substack. That's different then posting a video on a website that can be considered as unreliable. So are you saying we should use Anthony Fantano's videos as a reliable sources instead of an article? TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 09:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

As long as it's some sort of "official" YT-account or whatever, they seem about equally WP:SPS, with the possible subject-matter expert exception. See also WP:RSPYT. CNN on YT is as WP:RS as CNN elsewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Fantano has his own website, which functions as direct youtube links. I don't see why there is an issue citing Fantano when theres no issue citing say a CNN report. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

These comparisons don’t make any sense. CNN isn’t applicable — CNN (or whatever news source of your liking) is a massive publication with editorial oversight and review. Needle Drop is a person - Fantano - a person uploading his content straight to YouTube. Entirely different. The problem is no editorial oversight, no policy, nothinh, just a guy recording his thoughts and throwing it on YouTube. That is absolutely not what happens when a news reporter uploads content to a publications YouTube channel. Completely different. Sergecross73 msg me 19:56, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: I completely agreed. Using a video review is not the same then using a text review, these comparisons are dumb and don't make any sense. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 20:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Is he an acknowledged expert (by more then one RS) ?Slatersteven (talk) 12:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Also against this. This has been discussed to death at the musical WikiProjects. It’s straightforward - hes a self-publishing Youtuber. It’s extremely rare that such a sourc is deemed usable on Wikipedia. If anything, we should be re-looking at why we deem someone like Jim Sterling as usable, not the other way around. Sergecross73 msg me 17:27, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: And yet Christgau's self-published reviews are just fine eh? Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:38, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Hemiauchenia Why would you put words in my mouth like that? When have I ever said that? If you’re going to respond to me, please at least address the comments I’m actually making. Sergecross73 msg me 19:48, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: You were a participant to the 2014 discussion on Wikiproject Albums on Christgau in which you stated that "I would consider [Christgau] generally reliable regardless of genre, unless a consensus at a given article deems the source not to be used" for his non-self published work. Do you agree or disagree that Christgau's self published reviews are usable? I'm not addressing your arguments because its pretty clear from Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_228#The_Needle_Drop that your actual reasoning is WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT and that you think that he's "just some guy on YouTube", describing him as "mak[ing] boastful, unfounded claims without proof or explanation" and criticising him for making joke reviews even though Pitchfork does the exact same thing, and not addressing the evidence presented from reliable sources that Fantano is indeed a notable critic. Hemiauchenia (talk)

Apologies for me not realizing you were responding to something I said six years ago to someone else? My sentiment from 6 years ago was that Christgau was usable but not compulsory and that he should be used sparingly. I personally dont use him at all, but I’ve learned to pick my battles because older editors in the music WikiProjects appreciate his work. Believe it or not, opinions can change over the course of 6 years, and if someone put forth an effort to not use Christgau anymore, I’d probably support it. Anyways, regardless, My problem with Fantano is that he’s self-published. Please assume good faith. Sergecross73 msg me 20:16, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• I think that the attention and endorsements that Fantano has received from RS makes a strong case for his expertise and relevance on a USEBYOTHERS basis. In addition to the NYTimes coverage linked above, here's two more examples attesting his relevance: [169], [170]. His use of the video format is annoying for us since text sources are so much easier to work with, but that's not a reason to consider him unreliable or irrelevant. Concerns about a lack of editorial oversight or fact checking are less germane for assessing his relevance because ultimately he is primarily being used for his opinion, and the question is whether his opinion is relevant, not whether it is "accurate". With that in mind, I wouldn't use him for controversial factual claims, but I think it's valid to cite his opinion as part of critical reception sections for music. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:00, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
• I think that RSes have praised Fantano's reviews enough that his opinion "matters" enough to be included in the review section of album articles --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 18:14, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
• Another note - the opening comments are also misleading. To say WP:VG full-heartedly supports Jim Sterling’s use as a source is not accurate. If you look at their source list - WP:VG/S - you’ll see Sterling listed as “situational” with caveats and restrictions on his use. As someone who also edits in music and game content areas, I can verify that we often treat Sterling the same way we do Fantano - limiting the use of his content to when it’s been published by reliable sources. Sergecross73 msg me 20:08, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

My comment about Christgau is based on fully recognizing his body of work in reliable sources, with editorial oversight. He has been recognized as an expert and has written several books on albums. None of these books were self-published. There are reliable, sources that believe he is a qualified music journalist. There are discussions that have reached consensus that he is a RS when he writes on his own as well as when he has been published in other sources.

I have not seen any sources that support this same standard for Fantano. I have seen editors claim that sources exist. Please provide them so we can see what the sources say about Fantano. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:32, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

How Stuff Works

Curious to know what others think about the reliability of How Stuff Works. They don't appear on WP:RSP at all as of Dec 2020. Their website has a section on reliability where they talk about their approach, their commitment to transparency, awards they've received, and writer selection process. They also stress that they're not a primary source, but my understanding is that secondary sources are acceptable on Wikipedia, as long as they're not the topic of a page. I'm on the fence on this one, and would love to know what other, more experienced editors think. Mozby (talk) 16:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• Weak Unreliable: HowStuffWorks doesn't seem to issue corrections, they quietly edit things they find to be wrong. They do seem to have some rigor, but transparency is hard with these websites. I'd say whenever possible, try to use any secondary sources they cite.

References

Eclipse of the Assassins

1. Source. Bartley, Russell H.; Bartley, Sylvia Erickson (2015). Eclipse of the Assassins : The CIA, Imperial Politics, and the Slaying of Mexican Journalist Manuel Buendia. Madison, Wisconsin: University of Wisconsin Press.

2. Article. Kiki Camarena and related articles, including BLP Félix Rodríguez (soldier)

3. Content. General suitability as a source for WP:REDFLAG claims

Eclipse of the Assassins propagates the conspiracy theory that the CIA was involved in the 1985 murder of DEA agent Kiki Camarena to cover-up a drug smuggling operation to fund the Nicaraguan Contras. Various federal investigations long ago rejected the CIA drug smuggling claims (i.e. [171][172][173]), and the largest homicide investigation ever conducted by the DEA identified Mexican drug traffickers as Camarena's murderers (e.g.[174]). The book centers around WP:REDFLAG claims by two former DEA agents (Hector Berrellez and Phil Jordan) and a self-proclaimed CIA agent (Tosh Plumlee, known to the FBI for fabricating various claims over the past 50 years, including his presence in Dealey Plaza during the assassination of JFK[175][176][177][178][179][180]) that have been rejected (e.g. [181][182][183][184]) by those that include the former DEA head (Jack Lawn), the Inspector in Charge of the Camarena case (Jack Taylor), and a journalist who has followed the case for years and is described as an expert in "drug kingpins" (Elaine Shannon). Some of the other problematic sources that the book uses in an attempt to bolster its claims include: 1) Gary Webb (whose Dark Alliance series claiming that the CIA supported drug trafficking to raise funds for the Contras set off the firestorm leading to the various government investigations); 2) Spartacus Educational (criticized by the SPLC for promulgating conspiracy theories and conspiracy sources, and has itself been rejected as reliable source in various discussions here); 3) Terry Reed (self-proclaimed CIA agent known for his claims of having inside knowledge of CIA drug smuggling and that Bill Clinton and George W. Bush endorsed and profited from it); and 4) Richard Brenneke (self-proclaimed CIA agent known for his claims about the October Surprise conspiracy theory who says, like Plumlee, he was one of the CIA drug running pilots).

Despite a plethora of dubious sources for controversial claims, there is a question as to whether this is automatically a reliable source because it was written by a retired history professor (with his wife) and published by a university press. Questions: Are books written by academics automatically considered reliable, or can they still be considered unreliable or "fringe"? Are books published by university presses automatically considered reliable, or can they still be considered unreliable or "fringe"? To what extent are editors permitted to vet the sources used by such those sources? Can this particular source be used for statement of fact, and to what extent is WP:INTEXT applicable or necessary? Thanks! - Location (talk) 17:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that most editors, including me, have a presumption of reliability for materials published by reputable university presses that have undergone peer review as part of the press's normal publication and editing processes. We can and should make exceptions when there is evidence that those processes broke down or there are other significant irregularities.

I know nothing about this particular topic, the author, or the claims that are made in this book so I cannot provide any detailed comments on this source. I do wonder, however, how the author used the sources that you claim are dubious; there is a world of difference between mentioning a source and using it as a foundation for making significant claims. ElKevbo (talk) 00:15, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

hotairengines.org

1. hotairengines.org
   
2. Stirling_engine
   
3. Early hot air engines
   

This source has been used on the listed article and on several others related to the technology being discussed, ie hot air engines and several inventors. This website has a single author who cites difficult-to-verify sources that all appear to have been published earlier than 1900. In the instance cited above, the entire subsection has only that one website for 12 references, and places where several more would have been appropriate under different circumstances.

My biggest problem with this is the website author seems to have put his personal bias on the presentation of facts and their importance to the scientific community. Also, I haven't been able to confirm that Isaac Woerlen, whose only point of contact is through LinkedIn, has the 'chops' to be relied upon so heavily. Does he have a degree relative to the subject matter?

I'm inclined to believe that rather than this author being cited, an editor might chase down his sources and use them.  — Myk Streja ^(beep) 21:28, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Many of the sources cited at hotairengines.org are primary sources. Woerlen seems to have done a great job aggregating historical facts and diagrams into the website, which would make it a secondary source, as Wikipedia prefers. IMHO the website is a good one, but your concern about the author's opinion is valid. Woerlen's opinions are not notable unless there is secondary coverage of him, I think; so judgements like "most important" should be discarded. The facts are not controversial, are they? Thundermaker (talk) 14:40, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Chicago Tribune

I'm really not an expert here - but I feel like the [chicagotribune.com Chicago Tribune] should definitely make the list? It's a reliable and widely circulated newspaper in the United States. I found it cited in over 500 articles. OfficerCow (talk) 22:49, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

It is already considered a reliable source. The reason it isn't on the list is that it's reliability has not been seriously challenged, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

@Atlantic306: Really? Who's challenging the Washington Post and the New York Times but not the Chicago Tribune? OfficerCow (talk) 01:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

They have been challenged in the past, Atlantic306 (talk) 01:34, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

State-sponsored fake news sites

The US State Department released a report in August 2020, titled Pillars of Russia’s Disinformation and Propaganda Ecosystem, which documented six state-sponsored disinformation / fake news sites. There is some overlap with the EU's anti-disinformation East Stratcom Task Force's sites that have already been blacklisted here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#State-sponsored_fake_news_sites. The six sites named in the State Department report are:

• www.strategic-culture.org Strategic Culture Foundation
• journal-neo.org
• globalresearch.ca (already blacklisted)
• news-front.info
• southfront.org (already blacklisted)
• www.geopolitica.ru
• katehon.com

Would propose that these four sites be added to the spamblocked sites from the December 2019 RfC here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_281#RfC:_Deprecation_of_fake_news_/_disinformation_sites.

Suppose that another RfC would be required for this? - Amigao (talk) 22:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose any blanket determination of unreliability of websites based on a national security agency's declaration as inconsistent with the intent of the RfC which directs deprecation in cases identified by "reputable sources" (plural). This is not a statement opposing the spamblocking of any site on this list (they're all, obviously, non-RS), only the manner in which we're proposing it occur and based on the singular evidence offered. I would support a specific RfC dealing with each site, individually, but not an en masse determination based solely on the declaration of a single nation's security apparatus. This does not constitute (a) sources (plural) as per the RfC, or, (b) reliable sources as per the RfC, since the source in question is an agency of the U.S. Department of State whose singular mission is "advancing the interests of the American people" [185] (a fine mission but incongruous with the concept of reliability). Further underscoring the unreliability of the U.S. State Department as a source, is the fact that it has repeatedly either proved to have lied to advance its mission or been strongly suspected of lying to do so over a period of 80 years with great flippancy on a vast multitude of topics (e.g. [186], [187], [188],[189], [190], [191], [192], etc.) Chetsford (talk) 00:04, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
• We shouldn't automatically declare any source reliable or unreliable solely because a government department said so, but there can definitely be a discussion on each of the sources, and the fact that the State Department declared them unreliable should in my opinion hold some weight (not dispositive weight, but some weight) in those discussions. Zoozaz1 talk 00:26, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Interestingly, the EU's anti-disinformation East Stratcom Task Force has documented quite a bit of disinformation from each of these sources. Just a few examples:

• katehon.com - anti-vaxxer disinfo [193]
• strategic-culture.org - anti-vaxxer conspiracy theories [194]
• journal-neo.org - COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy [195]
• news-front.info - COVID-19 vaccine disinfo [196] - Amigao (talk) 03:07, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

• I would also consider the East Stratcom Task Force non-RS for the following three reasons:

1. They are an agency of a state-sponsored national security agency (the European External Action Service) and should not be viewed as an objective factfinder but, rather, a mechanism to advance the foreign policy and national security objectives of its government sponsor; the government sponsor, in this case, is engaged in non-militarized conflict against the sponsor of the other sites (Russia) so its objectivity is questionable. As well, they don't follow any normal editorial standards (for example, all of their posts are unsigned and anonymous) and there is no evidence they are functionally independent of the governing political apparatus of the EU.
2. The ESTF's reliability and editorial independence has been directly challenged in the past by reliable sources (e.g. [197], [198], etc.).
3. A cursory search of the ESTF archives finds numerous examples of it publishing objectively false information (just to cite one example, here [199], it claimed residents of Washington, D.C. weren't allowed to vote in U.S. presidential elections).

Disinformation is a popular subject of media coverage today and we should have no problem finding independent RS; if the only examples we can find to support our position are official publications of foreign ministries and intelligence agencies, we should take pause. There is probably good cause to spamblock the sites listed, but we should reach this conclusion solely based on independent RS, not on the basis of the declarations of official agencies of governments engaged in conflict or cold war against the other side. This creates a dangerous precedent. Chetsford (talk) 04:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't think the United States government is a reliable source for what constitutes fake news, since it consistently lies itself. Unfortunately, its not possible to factcheck it's most recent claims, but here are a few from the past: spy planes over the Soviet Union, its involvement in the Bay of Pigs invasion, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, babies in incubators killed in Kuwait, the military strength of the Soviet Union, the planned invasion of Grenada, Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction and links to al Qaeda, and the NSA surveillance program. The CIA even has an old article on its website, "When the Government Lies." TFD (talk) 12:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose agree with TFD who makes some good points. Burrobert (talk) 14:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per TFD and WP:GLOBAL. We should not privilege US or EU government sources as being definitive or particularly reliable. NightHeron (talk) 14:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Thoughts on reliability of apple fan sources 9to5Mac, AppleInsider, and MacRumors

These sources are all used on the Apple Inc. article as well as other apple related articles such as Beddit. There hasn't really been any discussion on these source's reliablity on RSN apart from this short post and thread, which is why I came here to ask what your guys' thoughts are on these sources and their reliability. X-Editor (talk) 01:17, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

• Reliable if considered reliable by RS A cursory search on Google News for the phrase "according to 9to5Mac" finds that its original reporting has been sourced by CNET [200], Ars Technica [201], the Hindustan Times [202], and others. Since it also has a gatekeeping process, a physical presence by which it can be held liable for what it publishes, and my (very cursory) search sees no evidence its reporting has been questioned or discredited by RS, this indicates to me it's RS. If AppleInsider and MacRumors have the same qualities, they should be reliable, too. Chetsford (talk) 02:34, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Rahul roy is sign Director Aaron Nagar so please ad the detail in aarun nagar wikipedia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmp21btQMtI&list=UUTXmPRRlEkGaQNSsuExg43A

YouTube isn't a reliable source, so the source can't be added to the article in question. X-Editor (talk) 18:17, 1 January 2021

Is Newsopener.com a reliable source?

It's used at Eton College controversies to source the statement "Lord Bellingham wrote to the Times to say that Old Etonians would be withholding over £2 million in donations to the College as long as Henderson remained in post because of his 'woeful handling of this issue'"[203] (yes, that's the link, nothing to do with Lord Bellingham or Eton, this must be what was intended[204]). Doug Weller talk 15:27, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Doug Weller, I'd say not, but it's straight copyvio from The Times, so the actual statement seems true. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Sources for noteability of "Forum of Incident Response and Security Teams"

A page on "Forum of Incident Response and Security Teams" (FIRST) was rapidly deleted. In refusing a request to undelete the page Muboshgu wrote "... This does not necessarily mean a suitable article on this topic cannot be created. If it is a notable topic, e.g., multiple reliable, secondary, published sources that are entirely independent of the subject have written about it in substantive detail (not just mere mentions), then a neutrally written article may be possible. ..."

There are references to FIRST that go beyond mere mentions in The Baltimore Sun and The Wall Street Journal. As far as I can see these are both reliable sources. However if two sources is not sufficient to establish notability, then I need advice on the following:

networkworld

networkworld has an article that makes extensive reference to FIRST. Is networkworld a reliable source?

bluekaizen

bluekaizen has an article that makes extensive reference to FIRST. Is bluekaizen a reliable source?

elvocero

elvocero has an article that makes extensive reference to FIRST. Is elvocero a reliable source?

internethealthreport

internethealthreport has an article that makes extensive reference to FIRST. Is internethealthreport a reliable source?

tradearabia

tradearabia has an article that makes extensive reference to FIRST. Is tradearabia a reliable source?

I think the above are reliable sources but would appreciate feedback before proceeding. Tango Mike Bravo (talk) 15:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

The Bahá'í Faith: The Emerging Global Religion

The following book is written by William S. Hatcher, a mathematician (by training) who served on National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Canada (1983–91). The book is published by Baha'i Publishing Trust. Is it a reliable source on the history of Baha'i Faith? Taha (talk) 17:02, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Hatcher, W.S.; Martin, J.D. (2002). The Bahá'í Faith: The Emerging Global Religion. Baha'i Publishing. ISBN 978-1-931847-06-3. Retrieved 2021-01-02.