Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/June 2006

The Humanities desk archive of 20 June 2006 to 30 June 2006 can be found here.

June 1

Breakdancing scene in Flashdance

Does anyone know the song playing in the breakdancing scene in the film Flashdance (seen here)? I have tried some searching but to no avail. Thanks, TacoDeposit 02:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

A google search for a few of the lyrics indicates that it is "It's Just Begun" by The Jimmy Castor Bunch, 1972. ×Meegs 03:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

and an IMDB search for the soundtrack of Flashdance confirms that that song is in the movie. [1] VdSV9•♫ 18:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks both! TacoDeposit 01:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The signifigance on January 01 as a date of birth

I have been told, and it could be a wild goose chase, that muslims celebrate their birthday on 01 January, and that when asked for a date of birth, this is the date they will give of the year they are born. Is this statement correct, is it a wives tale, or is it not true of muslim's but true of another religion or the like. Thanks in advance D

All the Muslims I know celebrate their birthday on their actual birthday. JackofOz 04:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It's true of (race)horses --DPM 07:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

That's true in the USA, but the horse's birthday is 1 August in Australia. Funny, we don't seem to have an article on that. JackofOz 10:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

In the Islamic calendar there are only about 354 days a year, so that a birthday celebrated according to that calendar would be constantly changing its position with respect to the seasons, and someone 70 Islamic years old would be only 68 seasonal (tropical) years old! But Wahhabis are opposed to the celebration of birthdays. I never heard the Jan 1st, thing, though... AnonMoos 07:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The poorest people of India (some of whom are Buddhist), do not have luxuries like calendars and don't attach much importance to dates. They will often give their date of birth as January 1st. --Shantavira 11:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

In Norway, immigrants who claim to be born the 1st of January have to provide solid documentation, otherwise they will be given an id-number (= a unique number identifying the individual, starting with the date of birth) corresponding to a random date other than January 1st. The reason is that the numbering system that is being used in Norway (a thousand individuals for each date of a particular year) simply cannot handle the number of people that claim to be born the 1st of January. --vibo56 20:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it not fascinating to know that Jesus (and Buddha, by the way) were born the 1st of Jan., that's why ? But the CIA distorted facts and burned manuscripts with the help of the Opus Dei. Do not tell that I told you. --DLL 22:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

when were women allowed to act?

I would like to know when women were allowed to act on stage? I seem to know that it was not allowed in Classical times nor in Medieval nor Elizabethan times. When then did it begin? Theatre says nothing and women in theatre seems to be somewhat reddish in color. -lethe ^{talk +} 09:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

In the English stage, women were allowed to act at the Restoration. See Restoration drama, Breeches role, and Edward Kynaston (or is it Kynastan?). France had already allowed women to act, but I don't know when and how they allowed women on stage. Geogre 11:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Kynastan sounds like a tiny landlocked mountainous country somewhere east of Suez and north of civilization, whose sole industry is very thirsty cows. :--) JackofOz 12:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The article on the English Restoration claims that it was the first time ever that women were allowed on stage. It's not clear if that is meant globally, or just the English tradition. Anyway, it's enough to satisfy. Thank you. -lethe ^{talk +} 11:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely the first time in English. However, scholars don't like "ever" or "first." Any statement like that is bound to fall. At any rate, there are many suggestions that women acted in private before that, but you're sort of allowed to do things in your own home that you can't do in public, and so masques would often have women, and they might even have an audience, as there was some winking at the regulation. Nevertheless, the official ban was lifted by Charles II. Geogre 12:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to add that it's probably quite a bit imprecise to look at the periods mentioned as possibilities of when women "began" to be allowed to act. It's much more probable that whatever ban there was on women acting "began" at a certain point as well. For example, if you look back to ancient Greece, were women banned from acting in the great Greek Classics? Would a woman have been forbidden from portraying Sophocles' Antigone? Perhaps. And perhaps not. In any case it's virtually certain that women acted at various periods in various places long before the ban you speak of was imposed.Loomis51 03:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but I can assure you that women were not allowed to portray Antigone in Sophocles' day nor thereafter. -lethe ^{talk +} 06:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I was not aware of the status of women regarding acting in ancient Greece. That's why I said perhaps, and perhaps not. The point I was trying to make was that it's highly unlikely that the ENTIRE WORLD had some sort of UNIFORM ban on women acting up until a certain point in history. For example, did North American aboriginals participate in this "ban"? In particular, did they participate in it before they were even aware that Europeans existed (and vice versa)? Since several aboriginal nations were matriarchies, it certainly seems possible that they would have allowed women to act. I know what I'm saying may sound ridiculous, but I'm just saying all this because it sounds equally ridiculous that there was some universal ban on women acting everywhere on earth, since the beginning of time, only until that ban was lifted. Loomis51 23:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact, as I recall, women and children were not even allowed in the audience during the Ancient Greek comedies, though they were allowed to view the tragedies. -lethe ^{talk +} 21:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Lethe is right. The default is women not allowed on stage. Why they weren't is one of those things you can argue, but women were not allowed to act in public, and women on stage made news in Europe when they began in England. Visitors from other nations just had to come see the really exciting, nearly pornographic, thrill of a real woman on the stage. This, in turn, can fuel lots of speculations on "spectacle" and "gaze" and other fanciful stuff, but the prohibition was very strong everywhere else. Geogre 11:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Virginia Scott's Molière: A Theatrical Life (p 42) mentions professional Italian actresses documented as early as 1563 and French actresses as early as 1640, so claims that England's restoration actresses were the world's first need to be tossed out. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Hang on, Bunch. Yes, there were some. No, they weren't allowed. Anyway, this is one of those tangles that I said we should avoid anyway: "first." Which is the first state university in the US? (There are two.) I'm content to have England not be the first with professional actresses and still maintain that they were the first to lift the ban, or at least at their own time. Geogre 19:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're quite right. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Democratic People's Republic of North Korea : why democratic in name?

Hello,

I was just wondering why countries like the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea and the Democratic Republic of Congo have been calling themselves democratic. I am not saying they should be democratic or aren't, but do they officially claim to be democratic when they put that in their name?

Evilbu 11:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

What's in a name? That which we call a government by any other word would operate identically. Anyway, point is, an "official claim" to being democratic is pretty silly, and requires some understanding of what we mean by a republic or a democracy. Most, if not all, countries today meet some, but not all, of the conditions for the two, and international bickering over the degree to which those conditions are met is pretty common. Putting "republic" or "democratic" in a country's name is most likely a means of reinforcing an implicit claim, either to outsiders or the internal population. — Lomn Talk 13:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

East Germany was also a "Democratic Republic", while interestingly West Germany was not "Democratic". deeptrivia (talk) 13:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

East Germany was officially the Deutsche Democratische Republik, which translates as the German Democratic Republic. West Germany was officially the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, or (translating loosely), the People's Republic of Germany. I always found that to be an example of history's sense of humor, since the "People's Republic" appellation has typically been used by Socialist/Communist states. --Ssbohio 22:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well thanks, but could you both elaborate a bit? I am aware of the subjectivity of the matter, but I wanted to know, when North Korea calls itself (they have decided on that name themselves right?) Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, do they MEAN 1) the president can be elected by the people 2) the president is elected by party people 3) certain other matters (which?) are decided by the people 4) no elections should be held as everyone agrees that the current regime is the best and thus we are democratic? I am just trying to understand their own explanation of that name.

They "mean" (and I'm now moving into subjective opinion) that they are a free and democratic nation, and the US should stop attempting to coerce and intimidate them away from their rightful place at the table of nations. That's one view, anyway. Note, of course, that it doesn't really fit any of your suggestions -- in fact, it doesn't even approach your suggestions -- because there's no need for a country to make its name mean anything. As a couple of similar examples, why the "United States" when, in geopolitical context, there's only one "state"? Why the "Commonwealth" of Virginia when Virginia is a US state, not a commonwealth of the US? — Lomn Talk 16:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

If I recall correctly from my studies, and to digress a bit here, the United States functions as only one state now, but when it originally adopted the name, it was essentially a group of different states (countries). In the early days of the United States, if you were to ask someone such as George Washington what country he was from, he would likely respond with "Virginia" or the name of some other state of the Union. This atmosphere lasted up to the U.S. Civil War, which was a defining moment in the self-identity of the U.S. Originally, therefore, the name "United States of America" essentially meant just that: several states on the (North) American continent that had united. --DavidGC 03:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There is another interpretation of the meaning of democratic in the titles of communist states. Virtually all of them were formed by an overthrow of the previous government which was carried out "in the name of the people." They all claim to rule in the name of the people and by the authority of the people. However all of them interpret this to mean that the dictator or ruling elite make all policy decisions "on behalf of the people" since they know best what the people need. Any disagreement with government policy is interpreted as an attempt to subvert or obstruct the "will of the people" and many of the communist rulers have been willing to subject millions of the their people to death, imprisonment, forced labor, internal exile, unemployment, etc "for the good of the people." Once you accept the assumption that the ruling elite are acting on behalf of the people, there is nothing dishonest in characterizing your country as democratic, no matter how murderous the government is. alteripse 16:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Communist states have always claimed that they are democratic. That's why they have "elections" and party "coalitions." In reality, both are shams. In North Korea, for example, candidates run unopposed, and the coalition parties are really under the control of the ruling Worker's Party. Communist states have legislatures that act like the parliaments of democratic countries but serve as mere rubber-stamps for the ruling party. There are differences among "Communist" countries, of course. China, while still authoritarian, is less of a shamocracy than it used to be; there are now actual debates in the National People's Congress. -- Mwalcoff 22:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• It has nothing to do with democracy, or anything to do with being a communist state in particular. Quite a few totalitarian states nowadays claim to be democratic. (E.g. The Democratic Republic of Congo.) It's simply a propaganda thing to make it sound like the regime has the support of the people. Nothing more, nothing less. --BluePlatypus 20:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Whenever a country decides that it must include the word "democratic" in its official name, it just kind of brings to mind that old quote by Shakespeare in Hamlet: "The lady protests too much, methinks". Bottom line, if a country's name includes the word "democratic", it most likely isn't. Loomis51 01:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

It's good to remember that Marxist ideology holds that oligarchy is a waystation on the path to the dictatorship of the proletariat, a state of direct democracy where the rule of the people is absolute. In theory, this transformation would be rapid. In practice, the oligarchical form has held on for decades, with no final transition ever occuring, in most Marxist nations.--Ssbohio 22:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Meaning Of Roy

I was told that 'Roy' means King (i.e from Royal). Is this True? If not, what's the actual meaning of Roy?

83.229.103.31 11:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, it comes either from the Old French, which indeed means king (roi), or from the Gaelic meaning red. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 11:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

See Ray (surname). deeptrivia (talk) 13:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

As Sputniksssr says, if the name is Rob Roy, it is gael : "Rob Roy is anglicised from the Gaelic Raibeart Ruadh, or Red Robert" ; if it is in the East Indies, as our Ray article tells, it comes from Raj which is akin to latin Rex and French Roi. I believe it because I read it in WP. --DLL 22:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, roi means king in the current French of today, not necessarily only in "old French". But I suspect what Sputnik meant was that its introduction into the English language dates back to the Norman invasion of 1066, when "old French" was introduced into England causing the English language to undergo what is by far its most significant and radical transformation ever. Loomis51 01:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

But "roy" is a particularly Middle/Classical French spelling (and Old French I suppose, but the further back you go it becomes "rois" or "reis"). Adam Bishop 03:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

GFDL licencing

Hi. I am working on a project where I use pictures. When downloading pictures tagged with GFDL, with the following licence text: Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled "GNU Free Documentation License". - (GFDL-self) - what am I allowed to do with the picture? May I

• use it with no source credit?
• use it with credits to the photographer as named on Wikipedia Commons?
• use it with information that it is licenced under the GFDL?
• use it with credits after getting approval from whoever licenced the picture on Commons?
• are there any differences between using it in presentations (PowerPoint) and reports/documents?
• and, just to be sure, images tagged with (PD-self) may be used however I want, right?

Sorry for asking this here, but the help pages on Commons focuses mostly on what is needed to upload a picture, not how exploiters like me can use them. Of course I'd like to name the sources, but it is not always easy, especially not so when used in a presentation or as part of a larger assembly of pictures. Jørgen 11:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• If you are really GFDL compliant, you have to give a source and a list of changes, and a full copy of the GFDL. (Personally I think this makes GFDL the wrong license for images, since that is a lot of extra copy to include with every picture). Now you can also get in touch with the creator themselves and ask them for a different license on it -- they can separately license it to you however they wish (I recommend CC-BY-SA, which is much easier to use then GFDL for images). PD-self images can be used however you want, yes. There should be legally no difference based on the medium (though personally I think this is ridiculous). GFDL is really nasty when it comes to photos, because it is a license designed for software manuals. --Fastfission 15:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
• Don't be sorry for asking. A lot of people just take images without thinking about the law.

use it with no source credit?

No. This is something you cannot do under any circumstances.

use it with credits to the photographer as named on Wikipedia Commons?

use it with information that it is licenced under the GFDL?

The GFDL requires you to give credit and say it's GFDL so other people can reuse your copy of the image.

use it with credits after getting approval from whoever licenced the picture on Commons?

Yes, if people want to license it under another free license that allows that in addition to the GFDL, they are free to give you any right they want. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

are there any differences between using it in presentations (PowerPoint) and reports/documents?

No.

and, just to be sure, images tagged with (PD-self) may be used however I want, right?

Yes.

Those are my answers. Images don't generally have a lot of chances, so it's usually enough to give the source and the name of the uploader for each. It's the GFDL copy that's going to take a lot of space. Not the list of contributors. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you both. However, I still do not have it clear: May I use the picture, writing somewhere on the same page: "Photo: P. Hotographer/Wikipedia Commons. The image is licenced under the GNU Free Documentation Licence".

and, on another note: doesn't a lot of web pages copy text off Wikipedia? It says below the edit window that my contributions are licenced under GFDL, so how come they do it - without listing the individual contributors or the GDFL licence? Jørgen 11:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Who is this famous woman?

In a recent interview broadcast on Australian television (ABC transcript), author DBC Pierre talked about his meeting with a famous Italian literature critic. Without naming the woman, he described her as "like the grandmother of American literature", and the "first Italian to import the literatures of Ernest Hemingway and all these liberal American authors...she'd been imprisoned three times by the Fascists for importing these liberal books". I am fascinated by this woman. How may I find out her name? --60.225.84.192 11:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

He was probably talking about it:Fernanda Pivano, born 1917, a critic and translator of American literature (sorry no English article). --Cam 12:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

She wrote an article about Pierre for the Corriere della Sera in August 2003. The title of the article appears in this list but I can't find the text online. --Cam 12:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that would be January 2003. January 8, 2003. --Cam 12:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I started an English article about her: Fernanda Pivano. --Cam 15:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

How would I apply for a job?

I'm 15, and I'd like to get a casual part-time job somewhere, say at a department store or something. How would I go about applying? Just ringing up and asking if there are any job vacancies, walk in and ask the same? Do I need to specify positions or anything? I'm in Australia.

Try dressing like a person who is smart and successful. Then, make a resume (it should be one page and highlight your skills since you probably have no work history). The key here is to put your 3 references with full contact information on the resume. Even though the employers won't have interest in it, it is a great cheat-sheet when you fill out their job application. Finally, go from store to store and just ask for a job application. I did this when I was 13 (in the United States). I worked on farms as a kid and I found I could legally work in retail once I was 13. So, I quickly left the tobacco, corn, and sheep behind and went to Orange Julius - then Burger King - then AMC... --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

What sort of dress would that entail? About the classiest things I own are generic sneakers, long black pants and a long-sleeve surf brand shirt (or this short-sleeved pseudo business shirt thing). I'm also a longhaired male, which rarely looks classy.

I hate to say it, but as an occasional long-haired male myself, I am appalled about the amount of difference a hair cut makes to how people treat you. Sometimes you just have to swallow your pride. --The Gold Miner 15:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The trick is very simple: look and act like the person doing the interview. Then, the only way for them to dislike you is to dislike people that are like them. --Kainaw ^(talk) 16:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Get a haircut. Get some proper shoes. Get a dress shirt. (I hope by pants you don't mean jeans. If so, get some Dockers or their Aussie equivalent.) I suppose you could start as a stockboy, in which case your sloppy attire may not be a problem. --Nelson Ricardo 16:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

A haircut isn't required. Granted, I didn't have long hair when I was your age but I have for a few years now and it doesn't make a difference for interviews. Just brush it and pull it back or something so it looks good. Also, here in the U.S. at least, many guys have long hair and work in grocery stores, music stores, electronics stores, etc. So basically, I don't see what hair length has to do with it. Dressing well is however important. They don't want you looking like you and your buddies just got done hanging out. Put on nice clothes and you should be fine. Dismas|^(talk) 20:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Another note, most countries have laws regarding which hours and how many hours a person of your age can work. Some companies will work with this and others don't want to bother. Check out places that have kids your age already working there, they are your best bet. Nowimnthing 21:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

this is a matter of life or

very important that i finish thi

You'll have no trouble if yo (DJ Clayworth 18:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

If I were you I would calm dow Tyrenius 19:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I really thi — Lomn Talk 19:43, 1 J

It's in the cave of Aaaarrrrrggggh! Geogre 21:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

They couldn't hit an elephant from that dist Grutness...wha? 01:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

This is what you're looki --DavidGC 03:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you please suitly em --212.202.184.238 04:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Damn pastatu...hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 08:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

I wi -- Ferkelpa

-mercuryboard^talk ♠

LO -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|M|E|666} 01:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You should refer to [[Wikipedia:Q --Ssbohio 22:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Greek theory regarding mind, body and spirit

Hello,

I'm trying to find the Greek phrase for mind, body, spirit and an explanation of the theory or philosophy. Any suggestions? Thanks

Try psyche, physis, pneuma. alteripse 18:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

psyche = spirit, noos = mind, soma = body. -lethe ^{talk +} 03:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And read the article on Philosophy of mind. --Lambiam^Talk 11:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

"Greek" theory (yuk yuk yuk) regarding "mind", "body" and "spirit":

Mind: "No, I don't mind!"

Body: "If the body comes with it, it's there for a reason!"

Spirit: "If the spirit willing, no ifs ands or buts".

Duration of a whole note

Hi there, is there any way I can find out the duration of a whole in a song? I mean, intuitively, sometimes it's quite easy, but sometimes it seems impossible to tell if the beat is a fourth note or an eighth note. I have looked for it in some meter-related articles, whole note, etc. But I do most of my wikiing at work, and any url with (music) in it is blocked out, so I might be asking a question that I could find the answer on my own if I searched more at home.

The reason I'm asking this is that I just recently came up with a song and when trying to put it to paper it seemed too bizarre. The main riff is 13 (as 3+3+2+2+3), sometimes 14 (as 3+3+2+2+4) dotted notes, so I was thinking that it would be a 39/16, but for all I know it might just as well be... what, 39/8 or 39/32 depending if those were dotted fourths, eighths or sixteenths. VdSV9•♫ 18:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

This sounds like a very slight variation on: half half quarter quarter half (a common 2-measure rhythm). It is not uncommon to hold notes a little long and shorten others to give it a nice syncopation. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It probably looks less odd if you write it down with alternating time signatures (ie, two 3/8 bars, a 2/4 bar, a 3/8 bar, or something like that); that way, it would be surprisingly similar to a Zwiefacher (four bars: 3/4 3/4 2/4 2/4) and would look a lot less exotic than a 39/16 signature. Changing signatures mid-tune (and even regularly as a base rhythm) is a lot more common than you might think, just have a listen to all those Led Zeppelin records and try to count the bars :P (of course, the exact places where you split your riff into bars would depend on where in your rhythm the accents are) -- Ferkelparade π 19:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

There are no-hard-and fast rules, but many conventions depending on the style of music. Which style of music are you writing? If you email me a sound clip of the riff with some context, I'll be happy to have a go at suggesting a notation. You can email me via my user page --vibo56 20:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, thank you Vibo for answering the main question. It's supposed to be, er... rock, whatever that means... As for the other replies, I think you haven't quite understood, it's 13 dotted notes, so it would be 9+9+6+6+9/(8 or 4 or 16) not as you put. VdSV9•♫ 20:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Rock is usually either 4/4 or 12/8. 3+3+2+2+3 sounds cool. It doesn't make much sense to me to say that every note is dotted. If the main riff is 3+3+2+2+3 for at least a couple of bars, I would suggest 13/8, or 13/16 if it's very fast. Try to identify the exact spot when the 13/8 notation no longer fits, try to identify the exact spot when you're back in 13/8, and use an alternate signature (whatever/8) for the period in between. --vibo56 21:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, rock usually is 4/4, but I don't know what else to think of it, I mean, I play in rock bands, I play rock music, so this would have to be a crazy-ass-rock-waltz. ;)

I expressed myself poorly. It's not that every note is dotted, the beats, the beats are dotted notes. The riff is comprised of 13 beats, grouped as shown.

 1''2''3''1''2''3''1''2''1''2''1''2''3'' repeat.

I don't play drums, but I'm good at Air Drums. I came up with a simple count for this stomping my foot on the 1s, shaking my false drumstick as if I were hitting the hihat on every number and ', and tapping my leg on the 2s and 3s. Was this humanly understandable? VdSV9•♫ 00:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

What I was trying to say is that by using 13 beats, you are over-complicating it. You can use 8 beats and get nearly an identical sound. Hold two half notes a little long. Hit two quarters a little short. Hold a half a little long. It is called, as I said, syncopation. Only robots play in strict 4/4 time. Humans bend the time to make it feel right. --Kainaw ^(talk) 00:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

If you're suggesting I change it to fit a common time, thanks, but I prefer it as it is. I might use it as a variation for a guitar solo or something... Like in Pink Floyd's money. ;)

I know what syncopation is, but I don't want a nearly identical sound.

Thank you all for suggestions on my music, but maybe I shouldn't have mentioned itfp. Let's get back to the point, how to figure the duration of a whole note? Someone take a (preferrably well known) song or two and say "this song is 6/8 and can't be 6/16 because the whole note is...." or something like that. VdSV9•♫ 11:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, back to the starting point. As vibo56 said, there is no rule for this. It is just a matter of convention and convenience, like what is common, how people tend to do it. The exact same piece may be written 6/4 or 6/16 without change of meaning. This might look weird though for people used to reading that kind of music in 6/8. So if you're used to reading music, just pick what looks most right. --Lambiam^Talk 11:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you all for replying! VdSV9•♫ 12:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that you're using duple time? (Someone who can spell it, please suitly emphazi). It's like triplets, but the other way. You could write it as 9/8 with a duple thing over two of the bars, if theat is the sort of 'stretched' effect you want. Otherwise, it's just changing bar lengths. "9/8, 9/8, 6/8, 6/8, 9/8" Funky. And as people said, you can write it any way you want. If it comes to setting the speed, you do that seperately by writing "90 (crochets) a minute)" or whatever. If it comes to the beat, it's however it makes sense. 6/8 and 3/4 are the same length (you could write a piece of 6/8 music with a 3/4 time signature), but the beats are placed differently. You probably know most of this, so please don't feel patronised. Skittle 13:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't like tuplets, I like it when it's complicated. :b

If you look at the little scheme I did with the 1''2''3'''s, you'll see exactly what the beat is like (I think). VdSV9•♫ 19:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Well yes. As I said, if you're using exact counting (the bar lengths are not the same, the beat length is) and your beats are dotted notes, then you're looking at "9/8, 9/8, 6/8, 6/8, 9/8" as your simplest form. You could try "9/4, 9/4, 6/4, 6/4, 9/4" or others if you'd rather, but I think you'd be most comfortable working with the first. And who says tuplets aren't complicated? :-) Skittle 11:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Unknown Music Track: Used in X-Factor

What are the track details (name composer etc.) of the piece regularly used to symbolize powerful things happen, and is currently feauturing heavily in the British televison programme the X-Factor, especially towards the beggining of each programme, where it shows clips (I think). Philc _T^E_C^I 20:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks like it is from Carl Orff's Carmina Burana [2]. The part of the piece that is usually used is called "O Fortuna". --Cam 02:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!! Philc _T^E_C^I 20:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

GOP

What does the acronym GOP stand for?

See GOP. In order to help any more, you'll have to give us the context in which it was used. Dismas|^(talk) 20:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Try this. --vibo56 22:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Grand Old Party.

Regulatory Agency Clearance Delay

What's that? I heard about it in the Powerbook prank (located at http://www.zug.com/pranks/powerbook/index.html) It seems to be something to do with British/American customs. Wizrdwarts 23:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It's just FedEX speak saying that the item has arrived in the country and is awaiting processing or inspection by that country's customs authority. In the case of the PowerBook prank which was delivered to London, this would have been HM Customs and Excise (now HM Revenue and Customs). --Canley 01:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, okay, thanks for answering! Wizrdwarts 02:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

June 2

What is a "sister city"?

In some cities they have a list on the bottom that has other cities from other countries labeled as sister cities. Can someone explain it to me?--195.229.242.54 01:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

If you type "sister city" in the box it takes you to Town twinning. Is there anything that article doesn't explain? —Keenan Pepper 03:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't think there would be an article about it, thank you very much!--195.229.242.54 09:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Journey Plural

(moved to the Language Desk)

Chinatowns

Why are there only Chinatowns in the United States? Why not a Japantown, Koreantown, etc? Thanks.

MSTCrow 02:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• The short answer is that there are. They're just not as famous internationally as Chinatown in NYC and San Fransisco. I don't know of a Japantown, but there are Koreantowns. Geogre 02:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact NYC is so massive and diverse that there's a "town" for pretty much any ethnic group you can think of. Just as an example, I've been told that in NYC there's actually a neighbourhood called "Little Afghanistan". Also, it has to be recognized that different ethnic neighbourhoods tend use different wording in their names. Not every ethnic neighbourhood has to end with the word "town" as is traditional for Chinese neighbourhoods. For example, there may not exist any "Italytown" anywhere in America, but there are certainly plenty of places in plenty of major cities in the US that are known as "Little Italy". So, to turn your question on its head, why are there no "Little Chinas" in the US? Loomis51 03:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh? Japantown. --Nelson Ricardo 07:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a perfectly good Chinatown in Toronto.

See List of named ethnic enclaves in North American cities for more examples. Rmhermen 17:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Detroit has a well-known Greektown, and IIRC, New York has a "Little Italy". Seattle has a heavily Japanese area, but I don't know if it's got a name of its own. --Serie 18:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a Japantown in San Francisco.

• This is a sweeping generalization, but the Chinese immigrants started arriving in the 1800s, while the Japanese and Koreans started arriving (except for the Asian-Californians, of course) in the 1960s. So while there are indeed J-Towns and K-Towns, in many towns immigrants from these nations arrived in a USA that was more encouraging of ethnic integration. So while ethnic neighborhoods exist to some extent for just about every immigrant group, they are far more common among groups like the Italian and Chinese who started arriving in large numbers before the 1960s.--M@rēino 20:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

date of birth of Rahul Mahajan son of late BJP leader Pramod Mahajan.

June 2, 2006.

To Wikipedia Reference Desk Humanities

Subject: Request for information on Date of Birth of Rahul Mahajan, son of late BJP leader Pramod Mahajan.

Sir / Madam,

I wish to know the Date of Birth or any educational information wherein I can know the date of birth of Rahul Mahajan, son of late BJP leader Pramod Mahajan. I need the information very urgently. You may SMS me at [ phone number redacted ]. Thanking You for your kind response Yours Truly Sd/- Prashant Hamine Special Correspondent Daily News & Analysis.

date of birth of rahul mahajan, son of late BJP leader Pramod Mahajan

June 2, 2006

To Wikipedia Reference Desk Humanities

Subject: Request for deleting information on Rahul Mahajan, son of late BJP leader Pramod Mahajan

Sir / Madam

I hereby humbly request your goodself to delete the query that I had asked you for information on date of birth of Rahul Mahajan, son of late Pramod Mahajan. I apologise for the trouble caused. Please remove the query from the website. Sd/- Prashant

No worries! Glad you managed to find the information you were looking for. — QuantumEleven 08:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Death becomes her

In the film Death Becomes Her, Isabella Rosselini played the role of a 71 year old woman with the body of a 20 year old, posessing an elixir of youth. In something I'm writing, I am trying to conjure up an image of such a bottle, and intended to make a reference to the film. It's a while since I saw it, and I have trouble remembering the exact details. I would like to know:

• how was the stuff taken? I remember it being applied to the skin, but according to the article, it was drunk.
• exactly which color did the liquid have? On the image shown in the article it appears to be purple, I remember it as blue.
• I remember it as having a bright, swirling appearance, as if something were moving around inside. Is that correct?

--Oddgeir 08:03, 2 June 2006

• It was drunk.
• I am not sure about the color.
• I remember that it glowed a bit, nothing else.

At least this how I remember it. Flamarande 10:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I remember it looking pretty much exactly as it does in the movie poster, without the arcs of lightning and with a whiff of pinkish vapour released when the stopper was removed. It's been a few years since I saw the film though. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 17:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

A bit off topic, but anyways, my favourite movie line ever, is when Goldie Hawn rises from the pond that she was thrown into after having most of the contents of her abdominal cavity being nicely scattered around the garden, and calmly states: "That was totally uncalled for". I googled for ("That was totally uncalled for" AND Goldie AND Hawn) with virtually no relevant hits. Is there a spelling mistake in my search (PLEASE CONFIRM), or am I alone on the entire www in recognising the beauty of that particular piece of cinematographic history?

See http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104070/quotes. --Lambiam^Talk 00:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --vibo56 09:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, the question was:

• How was the stuff taken? Lisle (Isabella Rosselini) put a drop of the potion on Madeline (Meryl Streep)'s skin, and you could see the rejuvenation process occurring, real time. That was just a teaser, however, when Madeline bought it, it was drunk.
• I am not dead sure :-) about the colour.
• Was the liquid visibly alive? Yes, definitely. --vibo56 20:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

file sharing questions

Isn't there a contradiction between the record industry's wish to clamp down on "illegal" file sharing and the sale of used records and CDs? If I buy a used CD from a store, my money goes straight to the owner of the store. None of it goes to the record label or the artist. But that's OK, because the label and artist got their cut when the CD was sold the first time. So, isn't there a parallel with the act of downloading a CD from a file sharing site? Presumably, *someone* must have bought the CD in the first place, at which point the label and artist got their cut. What's the difference?

You could extend the analogy to a hypothetical used record store whose owner, in a fit of generosity, gives away all his stock for free. Would the record industry complain about that? No, because they wouldn't be getting a cut from the sale of those used records anyway. They're not losing out, because they got their cut when the record was sold the first time.

Also, what about vinyl LPs? Many record companies still release new music on vinyl. If I buy an album on vinyl from a new record store, the artist and label have got their cut. So, no problem there. But what if I then decide that I want to listen to that same album on my computer or my CD player as well? Surely I should be allowed to download that same album for free off the internet for personal use, because I have already paid for the music when I bought the album on vinyl. --Richardrj 09:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with your analogy is that if you buy a second hand CD, no one else can also buy that same physical CD, but any number of people can download a digital version of a CD, yet only one copy was purchased.-gadfium 10:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, when you buy a second-hand CD, the original owner no longer owns the CD. When you file trade, you aren't "trading". You are copying. A true trade would mean that you no longer have the song you traded away and the other person no longer has the song you received. Yes - you can copy a CD and then sell it - but that is considered just as illegal as file sharing. --Kainaw ^(talk) 12:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you specify the jurisdiction that you're talking about? Not all jurisdictions (eg Canada) consider file sharing to be illegal. Angel Thane 04:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, what makes you think that the record companies don't want to stop used CD sales? I think it's likely that they would if they could; they just recognize that there's no political will to make used CD sales illegal, so they don't expend any effort trying to accomplish something which they know is not politically feasible. Used CD sales are allowed under current law under the first-sale doctrine. Chuck 17:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I was aware of the first sale doctrine, but it is about copyright. My interest is, rather, in the financial aspect - how record companies can argue that file sharing hurts artists financially when thousands of copies of artists' music change hands every day perfectly legally without the artist seeing a penny. I take the point that people can download a CD without having previously bought a copy, but from where I'm sitting there still seems to be a massive double standard at work here. --Richardrj 19:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You are ignoring the point that I made. When you say "change hands", you imply that if I give you a CD it is identical to letting you copy songs off my harddrive. When I give you the CD, I don't have the CD anymore. When you copy songe off my harddrive, I still have the songs on my harddrive. The two actions are not identical in any way. Implying that they are is a very convenient rationalization to justify stealing music. --Kainaw ^(talk) 15:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Kirby Smith - Confederate General

I thought Stand Watie was the last Confederate General to surrender? June 23rd, 1865.

• Stand and Wait? I've never even encountered that general. Do you have a source for that? (On the other hand, I've encountered Kirby Smith as the last to surrender many places, including Shelby Foote.) Geogre 17:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• • Stand Watie (a Cherokee) is reported as having been a Confederate brigadier general who signed a cease-fire on 23 June 1865, becoming the last Confederate general in the field to stand down. Edmund Kirby Smith, a full general in the Confederate army, is reported as having surrendered the only significant Confederate army left on 26 May 1865. It looks like it comes down to what is meant by surrender, and what each surrendered.--Ssbohio 01:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• That makes sense. It's also the difference between surrendering an army (Smith) and surrendering a force (probably a division or brigade). The last commander vs. the last army. I'm sorry I haven't heard of Stand Watie, esp. since the subject of the Cherokee and Creek Confederates is troubling and interesting. Geogre 02:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The article on Watie suggests that he had a regiment and that he had...other uses...for it, so that might why he receives short shrift when it comes to giving out credit for the last surrender. The fact that he was Cherokee would also have complicated things, as it would have meant an acknowledgement of US authority over the Cherokee in a somewhat glaring way. It sounds like a really, really fascinating subject for a careful and farsighted historian. Geogre 16:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Marriage

I have read your informative section on this subject and acknowledge the two aspects of marriage - the religious marriage and the legal (i.e. civil) marriage.

However, I had a debate the other day with someone about which came first - the religious marriage or the civil marriage?

I believe the question is an interesting one as the answer may solve our debate i.e. were humans initially more concerned with the religious and ethical aspects of the union or the legal and civil aspects about rights of the union (e.g. next of kin rights and property rights in the event of separation and divorce).

Answers appreciated.

Tony

Both go undoubtedly back to prehistorical times, so there is no record that will conclusively answer the question. However, it is not unlikely that several cultures independently developed a marriage ceremony conferring some official recognition. It is also quite possible that the distinction between religious and civil would have been alien and incomprehensible to several of those. --Lambiam^Talk 17:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

if you're talking about gay marriage, the point is that it can't be treated as religious regardless in a country where people follow a hundred different religions. marriage can, in a country like america, carry sentimental value without necessarily carrying religious value, and it's completely unfair to anyone who espouses any religious beliefs on the subject contrary to yours to tell them that the feelings they connote with marriage have to carry some religious meaning in order to mean anything. can atheists not truly marry?

Marriage does not have any implied religious meaning. Secular marriages are very popular in the United States. Atheists are not the Antichrist, they can get married.

The legal marriage is the only thing that matters materially. It has to be a legal marriage/divorce or partners do not get protections or benefits. Besides, you can have sex, have kids, and buy a house - all without needing to be married. The only benefit is for you emotionally (until the divorce, lol) or discounted tax rates. --mboverload@ 05:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Aryan Nations Knights of the Ku Klux Klan

What are the rituals associated with the Aryan Nations Knights of the Ku Klux Klan? How do they differ from the Aryan Nations or the KKK? I am researching for personal knowledge and possible assistance to law enforcement.

Did you consider reading the articles Aryan Nation or Klu Klux Klan? Wow! This encyclopedia has more than just a reference desk! --Kainaw ^(talk) 15:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

US Govt bureaucrat ranks

Who in the US bureaucracy is higher ranking: assistant secretary or undersecretary?--Jiang 14:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

According to undersecretary, the term is used to refer to a second-in-command - which would imply all others (other than 1st, of course) would be lower. I believe undersecretary is higher in power. -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 15:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The no. 2 in a US federal department is the deputy secretary, so the article cannot be used to imply specificity to the US. My understanding is that undersecretaries head offices and assistant secretaries head agencies. Which is more senior? --Jiang 19:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

what's wrong with WP editors' reading comprehension skills?

The question above Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Sadam_Husain:

--- Sadam Husain ---

Why is it we didnt iniolate iran Harvey Stanfield jr

to me completely obviously means:

--- Saddam Hussein ---

Why is it we didn't annihilate Iran.

[~] Harvey Stanfield Jr.

there's no way for Iran to be a typo for Iraq, as editors above suggested: the typo would be Irak or something. IT'S A PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE QUESTION.

Instead of answering it, everyone gets all their panties in a bunch over the transliteration, suggesting Iran is a typo, etc. Newsflash: Sadam Husain is a fine transliteration for this context. The people responsible for liberating Iraq also want to liberate Iran.

Why didn't we?

p.s. note how my use of the word liberate reflects a viewpoint, and so does the poster's use of the word annihilate, but it's no reason to pretend not to understand what they're saying. my theory is that wikipedia editors are so used to the written word that they listen to TV with the closed captioning on so as not to strain their intellect.

p.p.s. to be on the safe side the answer can include "if you mean why didn't we totally nuke Iraq when we learned it had weapons of mass destruction it was about to use against the US, the answer is...". However, since it's a recent question, the news now reflects a liberation of a people, and not neutralization of an imminent threat to our population. (Which is why this answer is not necessary. Maybe before we decided not so much as neutralize as a threat but to "liberate" Iraq it might have made sense to interpret the question as a typo -- "after saddam hussein caused 9/11 why didn't we totally nuke his whole country" but this "interpretation" of a question, with iran->iraq is not now warranted.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.189.233 (talk • contribs)

In my opinion, it is far more likely that the questioner didn't know the difference between Iran and Iraq than your assumption that he was making a very vague relation between the invasion of Iraq and a possible invasion of Iran. --Kainaw ^(talk) 16:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

So annihilation (or 'iniolation') = liberation? It's obviously not a very 'legitimate' question if nobody can understand what it's saying. In those cases, there should of course be the possibility to ask.

Just to digress, I think this question and how it's been responded to portrays the whole issue quite well... 'After Saddam (whose name I can't spell) caused 9/11 (even though he didn't), then why didn't we invade and kill everyone (which is a perfectly valid way of doing foreign policy) his country of Iran (or was it Iraq, not that I really care as long as we get to kill foreigners). We might call it "liberation" as well so no one will notice we're killing them all.' I wonder if that's exactly what went through Bush's head? - ulayiti (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Reading your comment just made me realize something... What if the question was actually Bush just now learning to use Wikipedia? --Kainaw ^(talk) 15:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If someone asks a puzzling or ambiguous question, it isn't really up to us to guess what they mean. Minor spelling mistakes are not important; given the quality of the question I think there is every reason to consider the possibility that Iran and Iraq were confused, and the word was so far from annihilate I thought it as well not to guess either. I asked for clarification, and none was forthcoming. I've observed a regrettable tendency to consider "asking for clarification" as equivalent to a form of insult. Notinasnaid 16:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Given the heading that was chosen -- "Sadam Husain" -- it is not at all clear to me why the question would reference Iran. What is clear is that our anonymous ranter is somewhat confused about the history of the events of 9/11/2001, and the involvement (or complete lack thereof) of Saddam Hussein. And that he probably should switch to decaf. --LarryMac 17:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Please note that "we" also assume some pov. If the question is: "Why did Wikipedia not annihilate Iran?", the answer might be that no-one nominated it for annihilation, or else that the outcome of the debate was: Keep – no concensus. --Lambiam^Talk 17:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

GIGO, I'd say. If we're overfull of charity, we can try to guess at a person's meaning, but it's not a requirement, and the chance of guessing correctly is increased by the effort of the interrogator. People respect effort. Geogre 17:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

We can read just fine. Give us a (reasonably) understandable question and we'll figure it out. On the other hand we're not in the business of decoding what is essentially an incredibly incomprehensible mess of letters. Although I seem to disagree completely with the political views held by the last several contributors, I'm with them 100% with everything else they've said.

Of course there's always the possibility that the questioner is not a native English speaker, and I believe that we should always be sensitive to that. (I know there are foreign language versions of the English RD, but I've checked them out and trust me, they just plain suck. The only useful RD is the English version.) However, with a name like "Harvey Stanfield Jr." (if that is indeed his real name, which is doubtful), the possibility that English is not his native language is incredibly unlikely.

Granted, "iniolate" seems almost certainly to mean "annihilate", despite the utterly pathetic possibility that a native English speaker can be so incredibly illiterate. I'm aware as well that there are cases of unfortunate people who actually are illiterate, through no fault of their own. However the person in question, "Harvey Stanfield Jr.", apparently has access to the internet, and knows how to work a computer just fine, making it highly unlikely that he's truly illiterate.

Finally, why is this questioner so completely sure that s/he has successfully interpreted the original question?

If you ask me, we're all being had, and "Harvey Stanfield Jr." is laughing at this moment that he not only got us regular contributors to respond, but all the moreso, that he actually got some incredibly gullible moron to rise to his defense. Loomis51 00:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

When I first read the question, I thought it was a typo for "Saddam Hussein: Why is it he didn't annihilate Iran?", to which an answer would be "He certainly did try." -Canley 03:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

isn't there any possibility he was just trying to screw with all of you by mispelling and miscommunicating an idea that you all probably found offensive and idiotic? i'd personally find that fun

There is, but there's a tendency to Assume good faith around here. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 13:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why didn't the USA and UK completely annihilate Germany after World War II? Why was every single German man, woman, and child not systematically hunted down and killed? Why are there still Germans to this day, even though Germany was the country that gave rise to Hitler's Third Reich? This applies equally well to the question about Saddam Hussein and Iraq. JIP | Talk 16:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

because in all honesty few can be blamed for their actions or beliefs. the history of america is filled with people who fervently believed without any doubt that slavery was right. they weren't all bad people; they were in circumstances that greatly affected their ability to understand the issue clearly, and bigotry, violence, and self-promotion through those two means are innate human tendencies. black codes in america provided for whites to hold more power, degrade other people, and at the same time feel ok about it. you can suspect similar reasoning to be at work in Germany at the time. europeans, since the time when jews were used to fill a gap in Christian religion that didn't allow christians to lend money, generally been antisemetic, largely because of the fact that jews had (through christians' actions) been shouldered with most if not all of the lucrative money-lending positions. it was a fairly accurate accusation often that jews were in general better off than christians. so that violent anti-semitism that arose in the Third Reich had a background that made it not so great a leap for the average german. and it should be remembered that this all occured as a sort of nationalist response to disarmament after ww1. germans were swept up in a fervor. if any other person of any other nationality had been in their place, they would have been swept up too. you can't accuse (much less annihilate) someone for falling back on their baser but more natural tendencies towards bigotry and self-promotion. if you had been racist living in america 150 years ago, it wouldn't really be your fault. someone's surroundings have a tremendous amount to do with how they act and what they believe. also, have you heard of the famous Milgram experiment, in which test subjects would submit test subjects to what they thought would be near-fatal shocks so long as they were under orders (ie the blame was elsewhere.) what happened in germany was a profound psychological mess, and those involved can only be held responsible for their actions to a minor extent. circumstances had a large effect. it should also be said that the prospect of annihilating a faulty or immoral population, for whatever reasons, is terrifyingly similar to hitler's aims in starting the holocaust.

Exactly. And that was my reply to the original question too. JIP | Talk 18:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure I agree with that whole statement, although I think I agree with some of it. To be honest, the statement was a bit of a mess, so it's hard to really analyze it point by point. In any case, I think it's become pretty clear to any thinking person that the old "just following orders" defense just doesn't fly anymore, despite the conclusions of the Milgram experiment.

I should also add that the whole discussion of Germany, Hitler, the Holocaust, and the moral faultlessness of the general population at the time just doesn't sit well with me. Something just isn't right about the whole analysis, but again, since the statement was quite a bit of a mess, I'll assume good faith and just leave it at that.

Try to remember, that during slavery in the US, there were those brave few who had the strength of character to denounce it, no matter how unpopular their view may have been. It was these people who were ultimately responsible for abolition. Similarly, in Germany, there were a brave few who did whatever they possibly could do to save whatever few lives it was in their capacity to save.

I'm sorry but I can't take such a dim view of humanity as the previous poster. We all know right from wrong. Even of those participants in the Milgram experiment, there were a brave few who had the strength of character to refuse to participate.

So, I suppose my message to all the right-thinking people of the world is to simply hold your ground and never give up an inch, should you ever find yourself in a situation where you just know that a wrong is being done, no matter how unpopular your view may be within the society you live in. Have courage, be brave, and stick to what your gut tells you is right, no matter how tempting it may be to conform to the prejudice of the day. Loomis51 23:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think "Irak" would be a misspelling, not a typo, and "iran" (when trying to say Iraq) is a typo.

Federal Excise Tax

Hi. I just read here [3] that the U.S. govt. is ending the Federal Excise Tax (that appears on every telephone bill) which has been in place since 1898, at the time of the Spanish-American War. I've looked on wikipedia and can't find anything about this tax. The Spanish-American War article doesn't mention it, nor does the Excise tax article.

thanks, --WhiteDragon 17:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not complete. But this tax is breifly discussed under Taxation in the United States. Did you have a question about it? --Shantavira 18:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I was just looking for info about it. --WhiteDragon 19:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure that it's ending? I rather thought it was a proposal only. I wonder if it's under more discussion at FTC or FTC tax? Geogre 16:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Can Someone Confirm the Exact Date the State of Ohio was Admitted to the Union

I have been given information from a, usually reliable, source that Ohio is technically the 47th state to enter into the union due to some procedural blunder that only the Congress of the United States is capable of making. I have been unable to confirm this and would like some definative confirmation on the matter.

The article on Ohio states: On February 19, 1803, President Jefferson signed an act of U.S. Congress that recognized Ohio as the 17th state. The current custom of Congress declaring an official date of statehood did not begin until 1812, with Louisiana's admission. So, on August 7, 1953 (the year of Ohio's 150th anniversary), President Eisenhower signed an act that officially declared March 1, 1803 the date of Ohio's admittance into the Union.--24.80.70.174 18:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a common argument made by tax protesters, who are trying to reach the conclusion that the Sixteenth Amendment wasn't properly ratified--see the "Controversy" section of that article. More on the argument, and its refutation, can be found under "The Sixteenth Amendment was not properly ratified" (scroll down and start reading with the paragraph beginning "Still another claim made by tax protesters...") in the Tax Protester FAQ. Chuck 20:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. It's not even a very good argument because even if Ohio wasn't a state, the Sixteenth Amendment was still ratified by enough states for it to take effect. Strange that the Tax Protester FAQ doesn't point that out. Chuck 20:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Somebody better go back and change history. If Ohio wasn't a state until 1953, then Woodrow Wilson didn't really beat Charles Evans Hughes in 1916, and Samuel Tilden didn't beat Rutherford B. Hayes in 1876! -- Mwalcoff 23:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Heartlight

Hi! I'm missing the song Heartlight by Kenny Loggins in the singles list of his article. IMHO it's a quite good song, and i hear it sometimes on the radio. I expected it do be a #1 hit. I don't find much about it in Google either. Is it a cover song? Or is the name Heartlight wrong? TIA, Mickey --172.173.1.144 22:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Some sources have it as Heartlight, while others have it as Welcome to Heartlight. KennyLoggins.com, his official site has it as Heartlight, from his fifth album, 1982's High Adventure. I haven't seen anything that indicates it was ever released as a single by Loggins or his record label. An interesting sidenote: A song by the same title was also a popular hit for Neil Diamond.--Ssbohio 00:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! I can't understand how Diamond's boring Hearlight could become a big hit, while Loggins' didn't even make it on a single ;-) Mickey --172.173.1.144 01:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

"Parable of Immortality" by Henry van Dyke

I've seen "Parable of Immortality" (sometimes called "Gone from my Sight") attributed to Henry van Dyke all over the place...but sometimes to other authors as well. (e.g. Bishop Brent and Col David Marcus). I'm unable to find the poem or essay in the works that have so far been added to Project Gutenberg, though van Dyke was prolific, and assuredly there are books that haven't appeared there yet. Does anyone know for certain that this is his, and can cite the collection it first appeared in? I'm especially interested in proving it is out of copyright before I use it elsewhere. Thanks in advance for your help.--Ssbohio 23:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I hate questions like this because I feel impelled to try and track texts down. Unfortunately I haven't got far with this one and have had to endure visiting some of the most dreadfully mawkish sites on the internet with frightful midi tunes and angelic puppies. What I did find was [4] which says it was from Let Not Your Heart be Troubled compiled by James Dalton Morrison, 1938. Which had an application to extend copyright in 1966[5]. And it may be a coincidence as it is a bible quote but Let Not Your Heart be Troubled was the title of one of Henry van Dyke's sermons in 1901[6]. Although no defence, there are innumerable websites and books using this work and the chance of you using the correct version are slim as they vary between each other "I am standing upon that/the foreshore/seshore/shore..." MeltBanana 18:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

June 3

What kind of robe does Zatch wear in the anime series Zatch Bell?

An announcer on Cartoon Network's Miguzi lineup just referred to Zatch, the main character of anime series Zatch Bell, as "the kid in the dress"; I had previously missed the whole possibility of his costume being a dress, and would like to know if anyone else knows what type of robe it is he wears. Or if I'm wrong, because I can't seem to find reference of the type of robe through google or wikipedia. --Cryptess 00:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Can't say I've ever seen the show myself, but it's described by one person as looking like a 'choir boy cloak' on this page at animenfo, and it can be seen in detail in this image --Noodhoog 00:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Square Ended Ties

When is it/is it not appropriate to wear a tie with square ends? --Username132 (talk) 02:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I's not when on a nude beach. --Lambiam^Talk 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer to wear a rather long, wide tie on such occasions. :-) StuRat 18:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't you wear... no tie? I thought you wanted to be nude? — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll only wear it on formal occasions at the nudist colony. :-) StuRat 02:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

road trip 2

i asked this question before, and got good answers, but i'm not sure i wanna go with either. can anybody suggest a couple really good, popular-enough-to-be-available-on-tape, history books. i'm going on a long road-trip and would like my time to be put to good use. someone suggested band of brothers, but i shy away from something so specific that it ends up sort of being a novel in historical context. i really liked schama's histories of britain, because they were very entertaining but widely informative. i actually learned about history in large area over a fairly long period of time. i was considering maybe "my rise and fall" by mussolini, but that's not available even on amazon on tape. any suggestions for a good, well-written, and fairly general history on anything (except too much about america - which i've already studied a fair amount about) that i can find? i don't really know where to start looking. thanks

I was quite fond of The Professor and the Madman by Simon Winchester, and his The Map that Changed the World. Both are British history, accessible, and interesting, if superficial. Beyond that, The Killer Angels is on audio, if the US Civil War is an interest. The Botany of Desire is also on audio, and that's botany, history, and science but popular and interesting. Geogre 14:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

thanks so much. i'll look into them all

Online Streaming of english music

Can you give me the site names which offer online buffering/streaming for listening to english songs with out downloading on to the harddisk?

Thank you

see List of Internet stations Nowimnthing 13:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean songs written with English language lyrics or songs originating in England ? StuRat 18:16, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey! You just asked this question at the Science desk! — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Protecting one's intellectual property during negotiations

If I got a good idea, which hasn't been published before, how would I go about negotiating a deal with a potential collaborator, a potential employer, or a funding agency? With a funding agency, a confidentiality agreement might suffice. But, how do we ensure that the earlier two don't claim post facto that they had this idea even before I told them? (Assume that I'm not in a position to patent it without collaboration.) -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 12:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

With the usual "I'm not a lawyer, you're not my client and this is not legal advice" disclaimer.... Short of a patent or some sort of binding contract before disclosure, there is no way to garentee anything. My advice is to find a good Intellectual Property lawyer. --CTSWyneken 12:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Right. The usual practice is to have the other party sign an NDA. If the other party claims they had the idea earlier, they must show that, or at least make it sufficiently plausible, should it come to a court case. This is not legal advice. In fact, I don't know what I'm talking about. Sorry, my cat leapt on the keyboard, I didn't even type this. --Lambiam^Talk 17:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

There are some ways. One is to mail yourself a sealed copy of the idea. The postmark provided by the Post Office proves the date and, as long as it remains sealed, the contents must be older than that date. If you break the seal (anywhere other than in court and/or before witnesses), however, this method no longer proves anything. Another method is to have a notary public sign and date the papers, which proves their age. StuRat 18:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The "mail yourself a sealed copy" is a popular notion, but it's completely wrong. See Snopes on the "Poor Man's Copyright" (I know we're talking about patents and not copyrights here, but it's just as wrong.) It's easy to see that having a postmarked envelope is not proof of anything, anyway: imagine mailing yourself an unsealed envelope (which the post office will deliver just fine); then you have an envelope with a postmark of the desired date, and you could put anything you like in it at a later date. Chuck 17:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I see your point. This would require that you mail yourself an unsealed envelope (maybe you mail yourself one every day ?) just in case you find out about a non-copyrighted idea that you can then steal and claim as your own. But, I suppose some people might be crazy enough to do just this. So, OK, stick with the notary public then. StuRat 22:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks all for useful advice. And yes, I know that it's not legal advice. :-) -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

And you better hope said lawyer isn't a Marxist. Pckeffer

Let me be careful about this. :-) -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Poker

According to my understanding of poker; say everyone has 10 chips. One person wins the four chips that all four players put into the pot. Now they have 13 chips they are able to raise the pot to 13 chips while everyone else can only reach 9 and therefore are force to forfeit every time. Surely there must be a rule against this otherwise the first person to win more chips than everyone else has won fullstop.

Well, there's usually an upper limit to the size of bets allowed. But even if there weren't, another player could still win the pile by going "all in", risking all of his chips against the possibility of doubling them. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 14:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The questioner is describing pot limit, in which the limit is indeed the size of the pot. If one has too few chips to call an entire bet, they can always go all in, regardless of whether the game is limit, pot limit, or no limit. When doing so, one can do considerably better than doubling their stack if there are more than two players in the pot, as described here. There's never a "forfeit because you don't have enough chips to call", as far as I know. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

See Betting (poker)#Table_stakes_rules. In the case you described, if one of the players decided to go all in and wins, the player who had bet 13 will get his 3 extra chips back. In other words, the Table stakes for the player with the most chips are always the number of chips that the second players with the most chips has. VdSV9•♫ 18:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

In Las Vegas,if you die during a hand ,you are declared "all in"This is true!hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 21:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC))

Question for Roman Catholics on mortal sin

It sometimes seems to me that my head, my thoughts, my intellectual distractions are attempting to interrumpt my prayer; does my mind give deliberate and complete consent to these distractive thoughts? If some of these thoughts constitute blasphemy is it mortal sin?

Thank you,

--anon 16:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC).

Your question raises deep philosophical, moral and religious issues, such as the existence of free will, the possibility of being possessed by demons, what constitutes blasphemy, and the meaning and extent of the doctrine of the Holy Church concerning mortal sin. The heading of this page states: If requesting medical, dental, or legal advice, please consider asking a doctor, dentist, or lawyer instead. Perhaps this should be extended to requests for religious advice. Most devote Roman Catholics are not particularly knowledgeable about these issues. Personally I'd say: if you experience these distractions as such, it is hard to construe this as "deliberate and complete consent". Further, most instances of blasphemy are not "grave matter". This has little to do with whether this interrupts your prayer. Just to be on the safe side, make sure you repent before you die. --Lambiam^Talk 17:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Read St.Theresa of Liseaux on this .She is both practical and comforting.--hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 21:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC))

The general distinction between mortal and venal sin is will. If you will to sin, it is a mortal sin. A thought that flits by is nothing. Something that you consent to is something involving will. Geogre 20:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Wet dreams are not considered a sin since they are beyond the scope of freewill. Although people can control what they think about, if you're trying not to think about something, you're going to think about it. Just relax, God understands that you're trying your best. --mboverload@ 05:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Just relax, God understands that you're trying your best. How comforting. Now I know where religion comes from. — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

If you're not answering the question, please don't try to hijack the discussion, and remember WP:NPA. Geogre 19:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear anon., your life is your prayer, your thoughts are your prayer. Do as McDavis tells, just relax. --DLL 22:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Milton, while not Catholic, might as well have been when he wrote, "Yet be not sad: Evil into the mind of God or Man May come and go, so unapproved, and leave No spot or blame behind; which gives me hope That what in sleep thou didst abhor to dream Waking thou never wilt consent to do." - Nunh-huh 22:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Is distraction at prayer a sin? Only if it is willed — that one desires to be distracted rather than to pray.
• Is distraction at prayer a mortal sin? Perhaps your blasphemy is extraordinary. That term is defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church para. 2148. The term mortal sin is defined in CCC 1857. A solution might be to simply pray only when your desire to pray is greater than your desire to be distracted. patsw 01:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

How easy is it to hijack an airplane?

Right now, in June 2006, how hard is it to hijack a commercial airplane in New York and fly it into the white house? When I thought about it, the 9/11 attacks seemed amazingly easy to carry out: just enter the cockpit door, throw everyone in there outside, lock the door, and fly the airplane. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be so easy after 9/11. --Bowlhover 18:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You'd first of all have to learn how to fly a plane, of course, and flight schools would be a bit suspicious if you weren't too interested in learning how to land. You'd probably face stricter security checks into your background, both as a trainee pilot and as a passenger. You'd have a harder time smuggling weapons onto the plane, and you'd face the possibility of there being an air marshal on board. If you managed to overcome these obstacles, the USAF might be a bit quicker in intercepting your flight, and attempting to force you to land. If unsuccessful, the powers that be would have little hesitation in ordering that your plane be shot down. TheMadBaron 19:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

see Airport security and Airport security repercussions due to the September 11, 2001 attacks. Nowimnthing 19:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

There are many levels to this question. First, it depends on the country the plane is comming from, as security is different for each country. Next, you also have to learn to fly a plane, though you can still suck at it as you're not planning on landing. Next, you need some way to keep the passengers out and pacified for a very long duration depending on the distance you have to travel. I don't consider security measures on the ground to be much of a threat, a nice metal pen is probably more dangerous than a tiny box cutter. --mboverload@ 19:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are in the US, it is a lot harder, as the links User:Nowimnthing gives point out. For one thing, cockpit doors are usually sealed pretty securely at this point, so you'd have a hard time getting into it. --Fastfission 21:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

A big difference between 9/11 and now that I didn't see mentioned is the passengers. Before 9/11, the attitude was, "Well, we're going to be really delayed, but maybe we can sell our story to some tabloid." Now, it is, "We'll kill these hijakers before they try to fly us into some building." --Kainaw ^(talk) 23:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Damn right. What the point of not fighting back if you're going to die if you don't? --mboverload@ 23:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact, it has been said that is by far the biggest difference between pre and post 9/11 hijacking security. The rest is to a substantial extent security theater. --Robert Merkel 01:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

To Mboverload: I have a few reasons. The hijackers might cut off the oxygen supply, and suffocating is more painful than crashing into a building. Also, how are you going to break into the cockpit? You can't just crash a food cart into the door and hope it would open, like the United 93 passengers did.

If I'm a hijacker, breaking into the cockpit door might be a problem. But not letting me carry a box-cutter knife on board is not: I can improvise with my camera's small tripod.

I'm interested in what TheMadBaron said about the USAF. How will they know where the hijacked plane is? How will they even know that a plane has been hijacked? (Maybe the passengers can call using the onboard phones, but can't those phones be deactivated?) What if I take over a flight whose intended destination is the U.S. capital, and then turn toward the white house, literally at the last minute? --Bowlhover 01:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I was assuming a deviation from the intended flightpath being detected on radar. Even so, you'd still face the problem of those cockpit doors.... opening them in such a way that the pilots don't first notice a disruption in the cabin area.... and notify ground controllers.... who notify authorities.... who notify the USAF.... TheMadBaron 10:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

My response, turning off the "air supply" from within the aircraft is probably impossible. If the mass of people can't get into a cockpit, a small group of terrorists certainly couldn't unless they brought along some kind of cutting tool...not sure how compact those are. Actually I'm pretty sure suffacating isn't that bad if you don't fight it (you'll pass out first anyway). I know there's no pain involved. --mboverload@ 05:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought cutting off the air supply is impossible, too. But according to our article on United Airlines Flight 93, the terrorists were talking about whether they should do it, and I assumed they knew what they were talking about.

By my understanding, the terrorists were discussing dumping the cabin pressurization, that is to say, equalizing the air pressure inside with the air pressure outside. When that happens, the oxygen masks in the cabin deploy automatically, and oxygen starts being generated as soon as they are put to use. Below about 12,000 feet, many passengers can function without oxygen, but, above that, the need for the oxygen masks will limit their mobility. Cabin crewmembers are provided with walkaround oxygen bottles, instead of the fixed masks provided for passengers. At high enough altitudes (jets routinely carry passengers above 40,000 feet), useful consciousness is less than a minute, which is why FAA requires that flight decks have special oxygen masks & that, above a certain altitude, if one flight crewmember leaves the flightdeck, the other goes on oxygen until his or her return. In the passenger cabin, on-board oxygen generators are typically good for 30 minutes, so it would still be possible, however, for a hijacker to "run out the clock" on his passengers by waiting for the oxygen supply to be exhausted.--Ssbohio 16:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Right now, how long will the USAF take to respond to a hijacking? If I hijack a plane and then crash it only 2 minutes later, will they have time to realize what's going on? I know this is pure speculation, but... --Bowlhover 13:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

....But this is getting silly. The stated objective was to fly into a specific target. A hijacker is not going to be able to reach a specific building in two minutes. I don't know what the USAF response time would be, but I do know that some of their planes are a lot faster and more maneuverable than commercial jet aircraft, and their pilots a lot better trained than your average hijacker. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done.... but in two minutes? No. TheMadBaron 22:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the distance between Washington D.C.'s airport and the white house is only 2 km. Considering that a plane flying at 800 km/h travels 13.3 km per minute, the terrorists won't take very long to complete their mission if they turn at the last minute. --Bowlhover 03:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Has it occured to you that, at those speeds, there's very little margin for error? That's why airports, and runways, are BIG. TheMadBaron 22:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The passengers would take you down immediately, since 11-9-2001. — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This is pure speculation. It would depend on the nature of the passengers, the nature of the weapons available to them and to the highjackers, and their relative skills. Would you tackle a hijacker with a pistol? Or holding a knife to the throat of a child? TheMadBaron 10:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget, during the flight, the captain would be in frequent and at times near constant communication with the tower. If the pilot suddenly stopped responding and the plane changed path, that would be a pretty obvious sign, since Radar can track the plane's path. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 10:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

As another editor mentioned above, there is a real possibility in Washington, DC of an approaching aircraft diverging from course at the last minute. For that reason, locations like the White House, Capitol, Pentagon, & Camp David have long been thought to have anti-aircraft capability. Washington, like New York, Boston, San Diego, and several other large cities, has a downtown airport, placing many flight paths very close to the kind of buildings we see (post 9/11) as terrorist targets. In the event of an onboard emergency, flight crews can alert those on the ground by radio, or by dialing in a special code on the aircraft's radar transponder. However, it's important to note that, due to budgetary considerations, fewer eyes are watching our skies than before, and primary radar (the kind that can detect aircraft flying without transponders) is not being installed & upgraded as it used to be. Combined with continuing decreases in our military ability to respond quickly to hostile aircraft, it's mostly down to either ground detection & denied boarding or to the passengers in the air to stop whatever is going on.--Ssbohio 16:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

book about tower blocks that fall down?

I'm trying to remember a horror story about a man who deliberatly designs a pair of tower blocks joined by walkways to collapse when a strong enough wind blew.It was set in late 60's??? Britain during all the clearing away of terraced houses.The twist was it also was supposed to address the problem of ethnic trouble and one tower block was filled with whites and one with blacks and they were meant to mingle on the walkways.(I lived in a "streets in the sky" ,the walkways were where the criminals hung out) Anyway he was a racist and particularly hated the idea of the races mixing.As you can see,I remember it pretty well,just not the author or the title.Any help gratefully received.hotclaws**==

Rebuidling of Kerch, Ukraine after WWII

What country paid for the rebuilding of Kirch, Ukraine, in the Crimea after the Nazis and Soviets bombed it during World War 2.

Thank you for your help!!

Deborah Shaut

Did the German Jewish Philosopher Ernst Cassirer have any writings or opinions about Judaism?

The most logical guess would be the US. Under the Marshall Plan, the US pledged to give billions of dollars to Europe to help rebuild after the war. Political Mind 00:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Not likely. The Soviet Bloc did not participate in the Marshall Plan. -- Mwalcoff 02:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It would almost certainly have been done by the Soviet government, though the money might have come from the reparations extracted from the Axis nations that came under Soviet control. - SimonP 16:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

June 4

Looking for a good King James Bible...

But I'm viscerally averse to it being couched in any sort of religious setting, with running theological (rather than academic) annotations or grandiose claims of divine authority (not to mention alterations of the source for various reasons, etc). That is, I want one aimed at people reading from a comparative literature standpoint, preferably assuming religious apathy; or, at the very least, one from a non-sectarian, least-common-denominator sort of view. Can anyone help me out? --Tothebarricades 00:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It IS a Bible, so I'm not sure you're going to be able to find a non-religious version. When I studied it, though (for sort of half-religious-half-com-lit reasons), I was asked to buy the The New Oxford Annotated (I don't think you'll be able to avoid annotations)Bible. Just don't read the opener or the comments, though the comments really are helpful to general understanding anyway. I'm not really sure that what you're looking for exists, or even, given the usefulness of comments to even the non-religious reader, what you're looking for.

As the above person says, the New Oxford is a good one for scholarly/literary emendations, but its text is NSV, not KJV. As for its not being religious.... Well, you can get a KJV with no emendations at all. Other than that, all the footnote work is going to explain things in their context of the religion. Geogre 04:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

are bibles like the oxford's revised standard from an entirely different source? i mean i know they've got the same books, but are they from a pre-1611 (is that the right date) translation, indirectly from a language other than latin or...?

No, not at all. The New Oxford uses the Revised Standard Version, with some updates (hence the New Standard Version or New Revised Standard Edition). Of the common translations found in English, the 1611 King James was a full translation (although they did crib from Tyndale). The New Jerusalem Bible is a translation that was worked to be in basic agreement with the Vulgate and is used by the Roman Catholic Church in English. Then the Revised Standard. After that, full translations have been rather rare. It was a major undertaking for the New English Bible, which was an official Church of England translation meant to replace the KJV. However, almost all sides condemn it as flat and boring. True translations, as opposed to revisions and paraphrases, are understandably uncommon. Geogre 16:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"True" translations from the original sources are not that rare. See English translations of the Bible and Modern English Bible translations for several more examples (including the New Living Translation, New International Version, Good News Translation, Anchor Bible, etc.) Rmhermen 22:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Umm, I've now read the article Modern English Bible translations, and it has quite a few errors in it, including not recognizing the difference between a translation from Hebrew and Greek and a translation from English to English (which would normally be called a paraphrase). It's also missing, for example, the NEB. I don't want to toss sand at anyone, but, well, it needs some citation, some research, and some balance, as i think it reflects a somewhat evangelical view. Nothing wrong with such a view, but it can be partial. Geogre 17:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Geogre, we need a critical eye like yours at Wikipedia:WikiProject Bible. Also, a quick search reveals an "NEB" in the Other major versions section. --J. J. 19:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Possibly not exactly what you are looking for, but Isaac Asimov, who was not a religious person, has written an excellent guide to the Bible. --vibo56 10:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure? The Living Bible was a paraphrase. The Good News Bible was RSV. Anchor...I thought that was RSV as well. Maybe each of these endeavors has since gone on to translate and I'm out of the loop. (Also, there is a bit of a trick here, as a good many will do a partial translation. They'll translated the New Testament from koine, but they won't do the textual work of comparing sources and establishing authorities, and they definitely won't do the Hebrew again. They may therefore call themselves a new translation and be telling the truth, partially. A serious and full translation is rare enough that it tends to make the papers and take a long, long time.) Geogre 03:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

From our article "In North America it was formerly known as Today's English Version (TEV) but in 2001 was renamed the Good News Translation because of misconceptions that it was merely a paraphrase and not a genuine translation [7]." Skittle 11:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Penguin are about to publish the bible[8]. Is there any more secular animal then a pengiun? MeltBanana 18:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

About to republish the KJV. Rmhermen 22:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, you see, I have Oxford's NSRV, and I enjoy it a great deal. But it lacks the lyrical grandeur of the King James translation. So I was looking for a similarly academic KJV; I'm surprised there aren't (m)any, considering the importance of the text to English literature! I'll have add that to my list of life goals. The penguin is exciting, though I hope they aren't foolhardy enough to make it a novel-sized ultra-thick paperback. Thanks guys --Tothebarricades 03:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I just found a Cambridge University Press edition that seems pretty secular via some Wiki article. For anyone else having the same problem as me: http://www.cambridge.org/uk/bibles/info/ --Tothebarricades 03:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

That upcoming Penguin version is basically just a reprint of the New Cambridge Paragraph Bible which was published in March 2005. Is this the one you're referring to? While the scholarship looks excellent on it, note that this edition doesn't italicize the original "supplied words" as the 1611 is traditionally formatted. See the mentioned A Textual History of the King James Bible for reasons why. --J. J. 19:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Figurine

I recently bought a wooden carving (approx. 3 inches tall) of a man sitting cross-legged, with his hands resting in his lap and his face buried in his hands. His only clothing is some sort of loincloth and he is shaven headed.

I got him second-hand from a charity shop so have no idea who or what he represents, but after getting him I found out my mother had bought an identical, but somewhat smaller carving elsewhere and given it to someone as a present. However, my mother knows nothing about him either, although he clearly can't be that uncommon.

Can anyone tell me who or what he is? Is he praying, having a revelation, in deepest despair or just washing his face?

Many thanks, T.C.

We need some more description here, what does he look like? Like this? [9] but that one isn't sitting. hmmm. Nowimnthing 00:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe they are more common than you think. I've seen plenty of these in "ethnic"-type giftshops. I don't think it's intended to be anyone in particular. Just something a bit different.--Shantavira 07:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Solitaire

Is there an organization specifically devoted to studying/developing games of Solitaire ("Patience")?

I think the idea is to go it alone, bud.

Patience Strong is one of Britain's most famous poets. --DLL 22:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Little Red Rooster

On what album and in what year did the Rolling Stones record Howlin' Wolf's "Little Red Rooster"? Pckeffer

The Rolling Stones, Now! - their third album. 1965 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.252.1.47 (talk • contribs)

For which our article can be found here... Joe 19:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's ladies night and the feeling's right...

What is "ladies night"? --Username132 (talk) 01:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a marketing tactic used at nightclubs and bars. Typically, ladies will be let in at discounted rates, or even free, and will also often be offered cheaper or free drinks. As every nightclub owner knows, the key to getting (heterosexual) men into nightclubs is getting women into them first. --Robert Merkel 01:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think in terms of the song lyric quoted, the idea is that the raubriter bachelors are especially happy to be in the bar on lady's night, and this one is feeling particularly on top of his game. Geogre 16:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

For interest, the lyric is from a disco song by Kool and The Gang, and was covered in 2003 by British girl group Atomic Kitten. --Robert Merkel 03:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Is this legal? It seems like discrmination to me. 199.201.168.100 19:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No, don't be so pathetically PC. Philc _T^E_C^I 19:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I gather a few places have been challenged, but I don't recall the results. Certainly I know many men/boys/guys who are not happy with it and feel discriminated against. But I go to places that don't have trouble attracting women. I'd say if your place is only attracting men to the extent that you have to run a 'Ladies' Night' to correct it, you're doing something wrong. Unless you mean it only to attract men, in which case why are you running a Ladies Night? And nobody would stand for it the other way 'round. Skittle 20:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

What does "raubriter" mean? Geogre? Anybody? JackofOz 21:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

German Raubritter means literally "robber knight", less literally "robber baron". --Lambiam^Talk 22:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was having a little fun and being a little literary. Sorry I didn't check back and see that I had thrown a curve ball. I wanted to call them ronin, but I couldn't remember how to spell it. :-) Geogre 12:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh. OK, tks. JackofOz 20:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Pompeii

hello, does any one know the key features of the Baths at Pompeii, its purpose and main functions (Not Herculaneum Not Roman Baths) or have any references.. THanks

We'll try to help but first could you explain the difference between Baths at Pompeii and Roman Baths? alteripse 02:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Pompeii is 200 km southeast of Rome, for one thing. -lethe ^{talk +} 07:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but Roman baths (or "Thermae") refers to a style rather than a location. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 09:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Aren't the "purpose and main functions" the same as for all baths, everywhere? As for the key features, have you tried the official website here? --Shantavira 11:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Try also this. --Brand спойт 14:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

to state the obvious, the baths are like turkish baths, sauna, socializing, etc. not so much for just washing up.

The difference is that, im looking at Pompeii Baths, which ARENT in Rome, but have Roman influence, Pompeii baths are established as much as roman...i would also appreciate, if anyone could give reference to modern scholars about my topic.. thank you

They may not be in Rome, but they are still considered Roman baths and hence their main features and functions are the same as other Roman baths, such as those in Bath (England). Skittle 10:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Roman baths here means 'baths used by the Romans', not 'baths in Rome'. DJ Clayworth 16:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

fixing wikipedia

Question moved to the Help Desk. Sandstein 05:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

About the types of Angry Young Men, urgent please

Could you give me a non wikepedia based source on the following groupings, also important who were the commentators? From the "Angry Young Men" article: Sorry but since you seem to be the user who wrote this could you please tell me where you got this and who the commentators are? And Again I'm sorry but could you answer me as fast as possible, I need the info very soon. from the "Angry Young Men" article: "Some commentators, following publisher Tom Maschler, who edited a collection of political-literary essays by the "Angries" (Declaration, 1957), divided them into three groups:

The New University Wits (a term applied by William Van O'Connor in his 1963 study The New University Wits and the End of Modernism), Oxbridge malcontents who explored the contrast between their upper-class university privilege and their middle-class upbringings. They included Kingsley Amis, Philip Larkin, and John Wain, all of whom were also part of the poetic circle known as The Movement. Writers mostly of lower-class origin concerned with their political and economic aspirations. Some of these were left-wing and some were right-wing. They included John Osborne (whose play Look Back in Anger is a basic "Angries" text), Harold Pinter, John Braine, and Alan Sillitoe. William Cooper, the early model AYM, though Cambridge-educated was a "provincial" writer in his frankness and material and is included in this group. A small group of young existentialist philosophers led by Colin Wilson and also including Stuart Holroyd and Bill Hopkins. " Answer me on my user page, rtaycher1987, please Roman Taycher --rtaycher1987 10:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

chinese name

How is : Ho-Shang Kung written in taditional chinese ? ( He is a famous writer if a Tao Te Ching commentary ) Hhnnrr 12:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It is 河上公. --Cam 19:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's the same in simplified Chinese. --Cam 19:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Suburanus

Was Sextus Attius Suburanus Aemilianus the praetorian prefect under Trajan or the prefect just had the same cognomen? Thanks. --Brand спойт 14:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The text at this link: [10] claims that according to Aurelius Victor the praetorian prefect was indeed Sextus Attius Suburanus. --Lambiam^Talk 14:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

What is that dress?

I remember I found an article about a special designer dress that is very famous, which is meant to really emphasise someone's figure. It was worn by Victoria Beckham, and was made by a really famous fashion designer. I can't remember what it was called though! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks! --Rushda2 15:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Victoria Beckham wears a different designer dress for every public occasion. Try going to the Victoria Beckham article, and click on "What links here" in the box on the left. This will give you a list of all the articles that mention her, which includes several dress designers, such as Vera Wang and Roberto Cavalli. Perhaps you will find what you are looking for there. --Shantavira 18:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You're not thinking of Elizabeth Hurley, are you? She wore a really famous dress once, made by Versace. There's a picture of her wearing it on this page. --Richardrj 19:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Mmmm. Thanks for that link :) Grutness...wha? 06:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Median Adult Income in USA

This may seem like an easy question, but it wasn't for me, so I'd appreciate any help: What is the median annual income for an adult in the USA? Please note that I don't want the median household income or the median income for adults employed full-time. Thanks again. Superm401 - Talk 15:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I found a result of $24,084 at [11]. It would be good to have a second opinion in case I'm misinterpreting that statistic, though. Superm401 - Talk 16:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I could only find median family income about 8-10 months ago, which was 52,000 US. (I think the value of a buck might have changed significantly since then.) I couldn't find per-capita average income (which I was looking for) but made do. Actually I can see why median family income might be more useful. anyway here's a link 82.131.186.217 20:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

1920s/1930s play in rhyming couplets.

As a boy in the 1970s I came by accident across a play that was definitely from the 1920s or 1930s. While the book had a library buckram binding that was added, it was originally a thin performing copy published by one of the play publishing companies.

I may be a little hazy on details, but I'm pretty sure the play is set in a train station on Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve.

It had more than one act, maybe two or three, and was an elegiacal play full of reverie and lost romance. I believe a conventional young couple discovers they truly love each other.

But the most certain thing that I remember was that the play was set in rhyming couplets. It reads very naturalistically, and then you realize, oh, my god, this is all in rhyming couplets.

I wish I'd kept my copy, but I got rid of it years ago. Every year or so, I try to think who might have written it. I think it was a "known" talent, but I can never find any clue online. There are well-known playwrights and humorists and satirists and poets who did plays in rhyming couplets, but no details ever turn up that would indicate the title of my play and its author.

I hope someone out there can figure out the play and its author.

Thanks.

Eve's stallion

A play in one act and two rhymes.

Joachim - I'm wainting for the train.

Oz - I hope that it won't rain.

Train - approaches and whistles.

Seller - how are the sales ? --DLL 21:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

On a request by Zarkov : "I hereby agree to dual-license this contributed text both under the GFDL and the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license version 2.5." Anyway, traduttore, tradittore, as my Dutch friends say. --DLL 20:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

If you're willing to put this under a license that's more handy than the GFDL, I'll translate it into German and publish it in an underground magazine. Eternal fame is waiting for you. How about it? --Dr. Zarkov 23:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• I'd guess, if you wanted to really find it and didn't mind the pain, you could look through the Current Theater in The New Yorker from the decade in question (supposing it opened on Broadway). Broadway was incredibly prolific back then, compared to our standards today. (These days, all theaters combined may put on 10 shows. When Benchley and Parker were reviewing, it seems like they had at least one opening a week.) Geogre 03:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Deadly historical cultural exchange

Does anybody know the comparative number of deaths caused by the tobacco/alcohol exchange since first contact between Europeans/NA Indians?

Namely, how many people of European decent have died from tobacco related causes versus the number of people of NA Indian decent who have died from alcohol related causes since first contact was established? Angel Thane 23:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting concept, but I can't think how anyone could compute either statistic with much accuracy. Most alcohol related deaths are not the result of direct intoxication but of impaired function, either acutely or chronically, and are rarely recorded as related to alcohol. Most smoking deaths are related to heart and lung disease or cancer, but I have seen statistics over the years which purport to count American deaths related to smoking, but you would have to make lots and lots of unsubstantiatable guesses to extrapolate even those statistics backward a century or globally. And both types of carnage continue... alteripse 02:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Certainly it's a tough thing to calculate - if it wasn't, I wouldn't need to ask here. ;) For the record, I would be perfectly inclined to count DWI related deaths under the alcohol rubric. I've a feeling that the European/smoking deaths would be higher than the NA Indian/alcohol deaths, if only because of the greater population numbers of the former, but I would love to find any sort of ballpark estimations. Angel Thane 04:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

DWI is obvious, but alcohol contributes to most fatal brawls and shootings that are not simply robberies or drug business. Suicide? How about RHWI (riding horse while intoxicated)? Do you want to count reduction of population because of children not born-- not relevant to tobacco, but perhaps not negligible as a general contributor toward the low indian birth rate? And on the other side, how about the coming Chinese epidemic of smoking-related deaths. It is barely getting started. Do you count them as part of the "European score" or just collateral damage? alteripse 04:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• Very, very difficult to calculate. 95% of Indians died before they had a chance to sip alcohol because contagious diseases accompanied, or even preceded, almost every First Contact (see Guns, Germs, & Steel.)--M@rēino 20:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

June 5

Biblio Entry

I was wondering if anybody knows what the MLA format bibliography entries would be for http://www.alchemylab.com, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DuerersMagicSquare.html, and http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Schede/SDRs/SDRs_03_02_020.html, excepting the date of acess? Aleph2.0 01:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I found this page which may be of help. Scroll down to "World Wide Web sites and sources." --Cam 05:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I always tell folks to go to the Online Writing Lab (OWL) at Purdue University. It's the best online guide to college writing I've seen, and they do great work, there, in linking and drilling. Great source. (Google "OWL" and "Purdue," and you should get there immediately.) Geogre 16:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Insider trading (US)

What laws are there on insider trading on mercentile exchanges such as NYMEX or ICE. For example, let's say I'm a corrupt officer at a large oil company, and I force refineries/pipelines down simultaneously to give the impression of major disruption. Beforehand though I purchase many contracts, before then selling as the price spikes. Would this be illegal? The Insider trading article seems to suggest laws are only applied to securities such as stocks and bonds. Jim.

I'm not 100% familiar with American securities law, but I do know quite a bit about Canadian law on the matter. Yet from what I understand, securities law between our two countries tends to follow a pretty much identical set of principles. Also note that up here, securities law is a provincial jurisdiction, while the American SEC is a federal body, yet each province's legislation tends to follow the same basic set of principles. With that in mind, I'm pretty certain that what I'm about to say would be the law in the US, but I can't guarantee it with 100% confidence.

That said, your question seems to have two components. First off, the particular exchange you're dealing with is irrelevant. Insider trading rules apply to all exchanges. It's not, for example, the NYSE that makes up the rules on insider trading, but rather the SEC, which would have jurisdiction over every possible exchange.

Second, the definition of a "security" in securities law is very broad. It covers not only stocks and bonds, but a long list of pretty much anything that can even loosely be described as a "security", which would include such things as options, futures (which are essentially contracts) as well as the type of contract you describe.

So basically, my answer would be that, barring any substantial difference in our two countries securities laws, yes, what you're describing would definitely be just as illegal as insider trading of stocks and bonds.

If you want to be absolutely certain, though, I suggest you find the relevant legislation, go directly to the "definitions" section, find the word "security" and you'd almost undoubtedly find an extremely long list of everything and anything that would be considered a security. Loomis51 13:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

If I trade my apple for your dollar, having the "inside knowledge" that it is full of worms, I'm sure the SEC does not have jurisdiction over that exchange. Only if it involves securities. Contracts in general are not securities. --Lambiam^Talk 14:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• The relevant U.S. federal law is 2006 CFR Title 17, and can be found here. (I believe 17CFR1.59 may be most relevant.) In short, U.S. law prohibits insider trading of commodities/futures -- exchanges which are monitored by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC). What is generally prohibited is "employees, governing board members, and committee members from trading commodity interests on the basis of material, non-public information obtained in the course of their official duties," which seems to me to be exactly what you're describing. --DavidGC 15:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks David, for finding the particular legislation. As for your comment, Lambiam, the statement that "contracts in general are not securities" is quite simply untrue. If it were true, then the exchange of such things as, for example, options, (which are essentially nothing more than contracts,) with insider knowledge, would be completely legal. Since it would be legal, and since it's just as easy to benefit from insider knowledge by trading in an option as it is in trading in the underlying security, the law would essentially be providing a gigantic loophole within which insider trading can be accomplished without breaking any law.

When people say something like: "While meetings in general are a waste of time, some are worse than others," they don't mean that all meetings are a waste of time, just that they generally are. "In general" or "generally" means: "for the most part", "in a general manner", "in disregard of specific instances and with regard to an overall picture" (e.g. as in "generally speaking"), "as a rule", "usually". So "Contracts in general are not securities" is another way of saying: "Although contracts may be securities, usually they are not." I think that is true. An NDA for instance is a legal contract but not a security. --Lambiam^Talk 22:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Lambiam, originally you clearly came to the conclusion that trading in the type of contract in question with insider knowledge is not insider trading. Why else would you first present the example of the "wormy apple" sales contract as not being within the jurisdiction of the SEC, and then point out that "contracts in general are not securities"? As it turns out, (thanks to David for providing the precise legislation,) you were wrong in believing that such a transaction would not be considered insider trading.

I still maintain that the statement that "contracts in general are not securities" is untrue. I only chose to use an options contract because it was the simplest form of explaining my point. In fact, however, a vast array of contracts are capable of being classified as securities in US securities law. The list of contracts that can be characterized as securities is seemingly endless, but I'll try to list as many as can come to mind: Options, futures, mortgage contracts, contracts for royalties, warrants, profit-sharing contracts, lease contracts, income or annuity contracts etc etc etc... Clearly, one cannot make such a sweeping statement as: "contracts in general are not securities", as, it would appear, almost the opposite claim can be made, that being: "contracts, in general, in a vast array of situtations can be regarded as securities". Loomis51 01:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

In any case, since David found the relevant legislation, it's unnecessary to explain the whole thing any further. The activity in question that the questioner described would indeed be considered insider trading, and, therefore, illegal under US law. Loomis51 15:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Note that Enron did something quite similar to your scenario. I'm not sure if any of their convictions were for intentionally causing supply disruptions to increase prices, however. StuRat 21:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The definition of securities is quite broad: it's an abstraction of the evidence that one has a current or future claim to cash, goods, services, ownership, or other securities. For the sake of simplicity, most people refer to securities which are transferable, marketable, and fungible. Selling a particular apple now for cash doesn't create a security. But these examples create a security:

• Selling an apple now to be delivered in the future (i.e. where one or both sides of the trade have an obligation to buy or to sell)
• Sell the apple now with an obligation to pay for it in the future.

Also, the cite to 17CFR1.59 is only relevant to the employees of the Exchanges where these securities are traded, and not relevant not to the proverbial corrupt officer at a large oil company who wouldn't be an employee of the exchange. As evident from the Enron convictions, securities fraud is a real crime. However, some manipulation of markets is legal, see the Silver Thursday article. patsw 04:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Geography

What are the geological processes involved in the formation of a rock platform and a "tied Island"?

try Landform Nowimnthing 12:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Capital crimes in the People's Republic of China

What are the capital crimes in the People's Republic of China? Vess

Try our article, Capital punishment in China. Murder, financial fraud, treason, drug offenses are some of them. Rmhermen 15:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Distribution of Condoms in Schools

Is there any information on Wikipedia or any other place that discusses arguments for and against providing condoms in public schools?

--163.153.132.5 14:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Try [12] and [13], use the references to dig further. Nowimnthing 17:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Painting

http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=200xk.jpg

Would someone kindly tell me the name of this painting.Thanks.

It's a blue rider. By Wassily Kandinsky. Gave its name to a german art movement. Didn't get paid for it. --DLL 21:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

See also Der Blaue Reiter. Grutness...wha? 02:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

They're just too easy now. No challenge. Tyrenius 03:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

heh. don't worry - there'll be more to get us scratching our heads soon enough! Grutness...wha? 05:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Judicial Systems

Are there any remarkable differences in the structure of the British Judicial System and American Judicial systems?

Jesica**___

From Jury

Selected jurors are generally subjected to a system of examination whereby both the prosecution (or plaintiff, in a civil case) and defense can object to a juror ... The method and scope of the possible rejections varies between countries:

In England these objections would have to be very well based, such as the defendant knowing a potential juror, to be allowed. Some jurisdictions, such as ... the United States, give both the defense and prosecution a specific number of unconditional peremptory challenges. No justifications have to be brought to exclude a specific juror. Generally, defense attorneys exclude jurors who have professions or backgrounds similar to that of the victim and who could thus feel an emotional link to them, while prosecuting attorneys exclude jurors who might show affinity to the defendant. Some systems allow argument over whether a juror's particular background or beliefs make them biased and therefore unsuitable for service on the jury. In the United States, and probably other nations, it is hardly unknown for citizens to quite deliberately get out of jury duty (for example by mentioning knowledge of legal concepts).

I can look for more, or if you want a quick answer you could search Wikipedia yourself. Skittle 17:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Some other difference in the judicial structures are that in the U.S.A. lawyers are allowed to discuss the case at length with witnesses & prepare them for testimony, in the U.K. this is frowned upon & I think they're only allowed to talk once briefly with the witnesses before court.

Although it varies depending on the court or type of case I believe in the U.S.A. they require a unanimous jury vote for conviction, in the U.K. there is no requirement for the jury decision to be unanimous.

Referring to the British judicial system can be misleading as there are infact two systems: English Law and Scottish Law, A big difference from the U.S.A. is that Scottish law recognises 3 possible verdicts in a case rather than 2: guilty, not guilty and not proven. AllanHainey 12:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Sex

Why is sex considered such a taboo subject in many cutltures? It is something that occurs naturally and frequently (not in my life, but in nature). Why then do we censor the subject of sex and freak out if it is in a video game (like the recent San Andreas contraversy)? Why do annoying soccer moms and religious organisations lose their mind over things like Sex For Sam, and other such incidents? 12.183.203.184 18:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Study the history of religion. How do religions run by uptight old bald guys steal patrons from religions run by sexy women? --Kainaw ^(talk) 18:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

In evolutionary terms, it would probably be beneficial for sexual mates to keep secret who they are having relations with. Females protect their offspring because each male assumes the offspring to be his. Subordinate males get to secretly 'spread their seed' without attracting the ire of the lead male. From this general secrecy social customs evolve in different ways about anatomy related to the sexual act (even women's hair is considered taboo in some cultures) and discussion of sex. Nowimnthing 20:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Some animal mating systems proceed on principles of general "promiscuity" and uncertain paternity, but such systems have little correlation with secrecy, and have rather little relevance to humans. Chapter three of The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond has a brief and relatively clear discussion. AnonMoos 21:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Uncertain paternity certainly has a large relation to secrecy among animals with hierarchical social organization. How else can subordinate males ever get to conceive offspring?

They don't! Isn't that the whole point of Darwinism and survival of the fittest? Loomis51 22:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahhh, but fittest in what? Sure the lead male may be the biggest and strongest, but he may not be the smartest or craftiest. Each of those can be affected in various ways by natural selection. On a side note the correct way to form natural selection is not "survival of the fittest" it is actually more like "survival of the not unfit" as it is only the truly unfit that do not pass on their genes, the modest ones do just fine. Nowimnthing 02:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

See Geary, David C. "Evolution of Human Mate Choice" Journal of Sex Research; Feb2004, Vol. 41 Issue 1, p27-42, 16p and Wallen, Kim. Hormones and History: The Evolution and Development of Primate Female Sexuality. Journal of Sex Research; Feb2004, Vol. 41 Issue 1, p101-112, 12p.

Another contributing factor is the purely social aspect of sex as it relates to group dynamics. In most other mammals females only mate during estrus. Humans do not display their estrous cycle externally and like Bonobos use sex for social reasons unrelated to procreation. Nowimnthing 14:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to offer another possible perspective: Perhaps a degree of modesty with regards to sex is not such a "bad" thing after all. It's not that sex is necessarily a "taboo" subject, implying that there's something wrong or dirty or sinful about it. Quite the contrary. Sexual intimacy is one of the most amazing possible experiences that life has to offer. Perhaps, for many, sex is too much of a personal, private, intimate, "special" experience between that person and his or her partner that to speak so openly and unabashedly about every possible detail would just ruin that "specialness" of the experience. Perhaps, in an effort to maintain some of the mystery of sex, which is also one of its very appealing qualities, some of us are just naturally irritated when sexuality is so gratuitously displayed that the whole amazing quality of the experience is inevitably diminished. I think it's unfair to say that the modesty I'm speaking of is based on some sort of uptight religious disapprobation. Yes, some religions do seem to somehow equate sexuality with sin, but not all, and it's certainly innacurate to conclude that all forms of sexual modesty are the result of the belief that there's something "bad" about sex. Well, there's my two cents -- at least that's the way I've been brought up to understand the whole issue of the relationship between sexuality and modesty. Loomis51 22:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Why are Ken Lay & Jeff Schelling still here?

Why are Ken Lay & Jeff Schelling still here? Why don't they just get some of their money, hop on a plane and fly to Brazil rather than await sentancing for their crimes, for which they can recieve life in prison? For that matter why doesn't everyone convicted of or likely to be convicted of a major crime skip bail and get the hell out of the country? I mean at that point, what would you have to lose?

Wouldn't they just get arrested there and extradited. Philc _T^E_C^I 19:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you actually think they will serve their sentence? In a few years, when the general public forgets who they are, they will be let out on probation. It is better to serve a few years now instead of a lot of years for trying to skip out on the sentencing. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Do other countries extraidate for non-volient crimes? why not go to a country that doesn't? XM 19:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Even in another country, there is still the risk of bounty hunters. Add to that the risk that another country's government may simply take all your assets and running away loses some of the appeal. --Kainaw ^(talk) 20:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Lay and Skilling have been convicted of a federal crime. There is no parole for federal crimes. Nor is there time off for good behaviour. Basically, they're stuck in there until Bush pardons them on his last day in office. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No parole for federal crimes? Then why does the U.S. Dept of Justice have a US Parole Commission for paroling federal prisoners? --Kainaw ^(talk) 22:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Because the abolition of parole (by the Sentencing Reform Act of 1984) did not apply to prisoners committing crimes before that date (something about no ex-post-facto laws.) I might be wrong about time off for good behaviour -- I think I saw something that indicated that up to 15% of the sentence can be trimmed for being good. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I just read their history page. It is the government agency that will not die. Every time a law is passed to phase them out, another one is passed to extend it even further. --Kainaw ^(talk) 23:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah -- it's odd that they'd pass laws to phase it out, at least until the last of the pre-'87 prisoners dies off. Isn't the ex-post-facto part of it obvious? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

How could a bounty hunter get you if you're in another country, and even if they do, you wouldn't go willingly. What do they do stuff you in a van and drive back against your will? LOL 12.183.203.184 02:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Pretty much so, yeah. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Worse, if you aren't who they think you are, there is no law against accidentally kidnapping the wrong person when trying to get a bounty. --Kainaw ^(talk) 12:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well there is, it's the law against kidnapping and it applies to whoever you kidnap for whatever reason. AllanHainey 12:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yup. But - if you kidnap someone in a country with which (say) the US has no extradition treaties, and get him across the border, who is going to prosecute and how? Might make a return visit inadvisable. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Help -

I am doing a big project for work where I need to find out a list of corporate anniversaries, ie. 2006 is hershey's 100th year anniversary. Im coming close with my searches (the link below is the closest i could find) but i would really appreciate some further guidance. Thank you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies

Do you carry boxing history for 1900s

I am trying to find my grandfather boxing history back from the 1900s. I dont want to join unless you have this kind of information, If not can you tell me what web-site might have this information. Thank you Jenean

Well, if you gave us the name of your grandfather we MIGHT help you. Flamarande 20:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to join to do a search. This is a free resource, search all you like. We would prefer you join if you are going to edit pages though. First tell us more about your grandfather and we can get you on the right track. What country did he box in? Do you know the league he was in, any other info that would be helpful. Nowimnthing 20:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, no one "joins." This is an encyclopedia. You either write it or not. Either way, you're free to read it. Geogre 12:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that the sort of person that thinks they need to join (and probably pay) to find information on wikipedia, probably wont be able to find their way back to the message they posted. --Username132 (talk) 14:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the Khazars

Are they any people that claim to be descended from the Khazars at last partially?

Maybe. See Khazars. Rmhermen 22:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

June 6

Roentgens Caricature Drawing

i am after a picture of Roenetgens caricature picture. where am i able to find one, if there are any availible

• Um, is this image the sort of thing you're after? (I found it on this guy's website if you want to know the provenance.) If you're looking for something else, please be more specific.--Pharos 02:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

HAH! That's pretty good (No I'm not the original requester)! 68.39.174.238 03:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Plural of Habeas Corpus?

I was doing some work on a page concerning a court case here and ran across a legal/linguistic question: Should two writs of habeas corpus together be written with the plural of "habeas corpus"? Also, embarassingly enough, if that's the case, what IS the Latin plural for "habeas corpus" ? Thanx68.39.174.238 02:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think "X writs of habeas corpus" is the correct form. "Habeas corpus" itself cannot be pluralised. It is clear from our article why this is so. JackofOz 02:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Habeatis corpus, habeas corpora, or habeatis corpora, depending on whether you want to pluralize the subject, the object, or both (in respective order). These are the latin terms, not the legal terms, as you asked. Legally, I think writs is correct. alteripse 02:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

But none of those "pluralizations" are pluralizations of Habeas corpus as an overall noun (incstead, they're separate Latin-language sentences), so they're a little irrelevant to English. It's like asking what is the Latin plural of ignoramus...  ;-) AnonMoos 03:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Political inclinations

Me again. I'm doing some work on the articel of the Supreme Court of New Jersey, and someone suggested that the partizan complex of the judges be shown. According to Fox (I know, not the best source), it's 4 Dem., 2 Rep., and one Ind. I've been able to find one person's affiliation (Zazzali's a Democrat). Anyone have any idea how they found out what everyone's party was? Or did they just ask them all one by one? Is there a likely place these things whould be recorded (I've checked about 15 pages of Google)? Thanx again. 68.39.174.238 03:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• One has to remember that these judges were appointed by the governor, and presumably all or nearly all are of the same party as the governor who appointed them. I believe the party rolls are public information, though it would probably take a fair bit of bureaucracy to get to them. Short of that, the definitive source for their party affiliation would I think be the Star-Ledger story on the occasion of their swearing-in.--Pharos 03:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting idea, however I don't see how to account for the independant one though... Do you know if the S-L keeps back issues online, or if anyone else does? I checked their site... but it immedately confused me (Sorry, it did: flat and portal-like!)! 68.39.174.238 04:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, wait... Zazzali's a democrat... and was appointed by Whitman (A Republican)? I think I'll have to find someone with back issues of the S-L and root around in there, unless there's something else. 68.39.174.238 04:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

See this site. Only short excerpts are free, but I've been able to piece it together. Here's the breakdown:

• Poritz, Republican according to a July 11, 1996 article.
• Long, Democrat according to a September 9, 1999 article.
• LaVecchia "has spent 12 years working in Republican administrations" according to a January 11, 2000 article.
• Zazzali was a Democratic state attorney general (May 5, 2003 reference if that's necessary).
• Albin was appointed by McGreevey and gave money to Torricelli, but we don't have an explicit statement of his affiliation.
• I can't see a reason to doubt that Wallace is a Democrat, but again it isn't explicitly stated.
• Rivera-Soto is a mentioned as "listed alternately as a Republican and an independent" (April 21, 2004) or as just a registered Republican (September 12, 2004), but he has given more money to Democrats than Republicans. It appears he is the "independant" Fox News was referencing, though I think that classification may be inaccurate.--Pharos 05:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Wooooooooooooot! Thanx dude! 68.39.174.238 02:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

HAH! Now when I troll for other sources, look what comes up:! 68.39.174.238 03:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"Officer on deck!"

In pop culture I've learned that soldiers/sailors signal that an officer is nearby and requires saluting by calling out the above phrase. Can anyone tell me if there's always been such a custom? - I'm especially interested in the armed forces of 17th century France.

Thanks Adambrowne666 06:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a side note: that phrase is only used by Navy and Marine enlisted. The "deck" is the ship's deck, and it comes from the days when the swabbies and sailors would be working on the deck of the ship -- rigging and swabbing and stuff -- and the officers would emerge from cabins or superstructure and these working sailors would need to notice. Nowadays, of course, the phrase is used even though the sailors and marines might be six floors beneath the top deck of the ship. Geogre 12:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Geogre - but no cigar as yet - no other takers? Adambrowne666 09:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

OK - now moving this question over to Miscellaneous Desk, see if I have better luck there. Adambrowne666 23:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Berndt Lubich von Milovan

I am searching where Berndt Lubich von Milovan was burried. He died probably on April 24, 1966 in Oslo. He was a fascist born in Riga, Latvia on December 7, 1913.

Thank you for your help

Alena, June 6, 2006

Searched Find A Grave, Ancestry.com (too much results). Try them ? --DLL 20:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

World Cup

How many World Cup squad members play in the English Premiership, or the lower English leagues, and how does this compare with the other European leagues?

See 2006 FIFA World Cup (squads)#Player representation by league. Conscious 10:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Only two nations where all players play in their domestic league. Interesting!

Spain's the one that intrigues me - everyone either plays at home or in England. And the squads overall make for an interesting comparison with the almost entirely domestic squads in the early cups (see 1934 FIFA World Cup (squads), for instance). Grutness...wha? 09:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Lewis and Clark - how far can you canoe?

Reading several sources on the Lewis and Clark expedition raises a question - how far can you go today in canoe between St. Louis and the Pacific Ocean? It seems as though there are rivers which are navigable by canoe which would lessen the distance to traverse over the mountains that L & C weren't aware of. Admittedly, there are now dams which would require portage that L & C didn't have to face.

Hmm, I wonder if we have an article on wild rivers or list of wild rivers or list of wild rivers in North America? If not, the Google term would probably be "wild river," as that seems to be the only type of river that doesn't have a flood control or hydro electric dam on it somewhere (or a water diversion dam as with the Colorado River). Geogre 13:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It is certainly possible to canoe on rivers with dams. Whether Lewis and Clark could have gotten farther - maybe a little, but not enough to matter. Those large mountains just weren't going to allow a easy trade route. Rmhermen 23:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

List of Convicted Terrorists in U.S. Prisons

I am interested in finding a list of terrorists convicted in the last 5 years in the U.S. -- and which U.S. prison are housing them. Thank you.

As far as I know it's just Richard Reid (shoe bomber) and Zacharias Mousaui (I know that last name's spelt wrong), anyone else gets thrown in Guantanomo without all the inconvenience of trial and conviction (or aquittal). AllanHainey 14:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

What about Terry Nichols and Eric Robert Rudolph? They are both at ADX Florence, along with Moussaoui, Reid and many other high profile prisoners.--Pharos 21:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The right spelling is Zacarias Moussaoui. E-s-B 14:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is the Pentagon list of detainees, but most of them have not been tried yet [14]. Here is a list of infamous terrorists and current info about them, some in prison, some not [15]. Nowimnthing 14:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Shurely shome mishtake? If they have not faced a fair trial and due process, are they not infamous people accused of being terrorists? Or do we do away with traditions such as 'Innocent until proven guilty' now that there's any test of them? Sorry: bugbear. Skittle 14:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I just went with the how they were listed in the article. It looks like most of the ones in the list that have not been convicted have assumed responsibility for terrorist actions. Nowimnthing 15:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You have to read the article USA PATRIOT Act. Basicly, to protect American security almost all rights have been revoked. You can thank the American people who voted for George W. Bush, our new and glorious leader in this new crusade against terrorism. Don´t forget to praise the LORD for the new American president. Oh, and if you are against it, you might be a anti-american fanatic, perhaps... even a terrorist sympathizer; you will be checked out (privacy? forget it), and then perhaps arrested for a couple of years WHITHOUT charge and then probably forgotten. (Ahh sarcasm, don´t you just love it?) Flamarande 15:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel sorry for the Americans, whose privacy rights have been taken away. Just look at what the U.S. government did in response to 9/11 (Patriot Act, War on Terrorism, etc). It's much more devastating than the destruction of the World Trade Center and its immediate consequences. --Bowlhover 03:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

What about us poor British? There have been some 'interesting' laws passed here too. Skittle 07:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not 'correct' people's spelling for them. Suggesting 'I think you meant ___' is one thing, changing it yourself is another. As it is, the 'mistake' you corrected in my post was deliberate: a reference to a particular magazine. On top of the chance of this sort of thing, it is rude to alter people's words without their consent and doesn't allow any lessons to be learnt, unlike pointing errors out. Thank you. Skittle 16:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is absolutely great that Bush is an evil overlord who took away every single right the American citizens have and is the sole source of every problem in the world. That means that when his term is up, the entire world will turn into a utopia. How can anyone complain about that? --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Not if someone of his ilk such as his brother or Bill Frist succeed him. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

When you say "succeed", don't you mean "are elected by the American people?" Say what you will about the 2000 election fiasco, the evil "electoral college" and whatever you can about "hanging chads", but somehow, despite it all, W managed to win the popular vote in '04 fair and square. If the majority of American voters decide to vote for someone else "of his ilk" in '08, should us "intellectuals" declare the American people too stupid to vote for the right canditate? Democracy sucks when you're in the minority, eh? (I should know by my experience here! But I love it anyway! What's the fun in being in the majority!) Loomis51 23:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Seating Plan Diagram Of Indian Parliament

I need the seating plan diagram of indian parliament i.e lok sabha and rajya sabha for a project. Please provide them.

Click here, then click on "email", then you can ask the head of security yourself and tell him all about your project. --Shantavira 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

they are placed in a semi circle. the speaker is the radius. a radius straight down is the cabinet . then there are concentric semicircles for the other members. it is something like this:

   \\\                     <speaker>                  ///
    \\\                       C                      ///
     \\\                      A                     ///
      \\\                     B                    ///
       \\\                    I                   ///
        \\\                   N                  ///
         \\\                  E                 ///
          \\\_________________T________________///
             ----------------------------------

OF COURSE, THE LINES ARE IN A CIRCLE, AND THERE IS MORE DISTANCE B/W THE END OF THE CABINET AND THE START OF THE SEATS BEHIND THEM

Comparison Between Indian Rupee, American Dollar And British Pound

Could you please tell me why American Dollar is strongest and has widest coverage even if British currency has the maximum value? I need this information urgently.

For a start, you can take a look at the international use section of the United States dollar article. I will see what else I can find for you. Road Wizard 18:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Maximum Value doesn't equate to better stability. Philc _T^E_C^I 19:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that is what he/she is asking. So yeah the dollar may be considered stronger not because of it's relative value compared to other currencies (though that is one consideration) but due to it's widespread use and relative stability. Nowimnthing 19:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the £1 is worth more than $1 doesn't mean the pound is a better currency than the dollar or that the British economy is better than the American one. The weakness of the dollar compared to the pound reflects the fact that the US has a trade deficit with the UK. But in the US, the trade deficit tends to reflect strength, not weakness, in the economy. In some countries, such as Zimbabwe, a weak currency does reflect weakness in the economy, but, to this point, not in the US. The US remains the world's number-one economic power, and the dollar, even if it has its up-and-down cycles, is a relatively stable currency. In the future, however, the euro may come to replace the dollar as the world's currency franca. -- Mwalcoff 23:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact the Kuwaiti Dinar is the highest valued currency unit, 1 Dinar is worth US$3.46 DM Andy 05:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I REALLY think that to say: "the weakness of the dollar compared to the pound reflects the fact that the US has a trade deficit with the UK" is highly innacurate. Of course that may be one factor, but certainly not the main or even major factor. A currency's value is based on a vast number of variables. Very high on the list would be the relative interest rate set by the particular country's central bank, which in turn is a decision made by looking at an even more vast array of economic indicia. Monetary policy is an extremely complex art/science, one that I have only the most basic understanding of. If you want the complete answer, you'd have to ask Alan Greenspan as he is perhaps one of the very few who actually seem to have a firm grasp of this sort of thing. However, what I do know is that trade deficits, to the extent they have an effect, are only one of a vast number of variables that contribute to a currency's value.

It's also interesting to note that one of the world's "leading" currencies, the Japanese Yen (¥), a currency that is rivaled only by the US Dollar ($), the European Euro (€), and perhaps, the British Pound Sterling (£), has a surprisingly low value, for anyone who is unfamiliar with it. I certainly couldn't quote its precise value at the moment, but very roughly, it's worth something like 1¢ American, give or take. Yet it remains one of the worlds leading currencies, most likely due to the immense importance of the Japanese economy. Loomis51 22:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You also have to remember that what each country uses as it's basic method of valuation is completely arbitrary. Just because 1 dollar = 114 yen doesn't mean anything about their absolute worth, it just makes transactions different. Other than minor variations you are still getting the same value for the same goods. Ignoring a lot of variation here, so bear with me: If you buy a car for $10,000, someone in Japan would buy the same car for around 1.14 million yen. Each of you are getting the same product for the same price. So it is just the monetary units relative worth to other monetary units that is important, not the actual numbers. Nowimnthing 16:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

While you seem to have a good point, I don't think you truly understand. Currency valuations aside, it's well know that Japan is a more expensive place to live than the US. If you buy a car for $10,000, it's likely that that same car will cost you more than the amount of Yen $10,000 will buy you.

Put more simply, let's say, for the sake of argument, that 1¥ = 1¢. Let's say also that in America, a soda will cost you $1, or 100¢. As it's well known that the cost of such basic goods in Japan are higher than they are in the US, you may end up paying ¥300, or $3 for the same soda. We're clearly NOT getting the same value for the same goods.

The British Pound is worth more than the U.S. Dollar simply because it always has been. While the Dollar has made significant strides against the Pound in recent years, this has not exceeded the difference in value set under the Bretton Woods Agreement. So, historically (over the very long term), the U.S. Dollar is strong against the British Pound.--Bursar42 05:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Currency rates (for currencies not fixed) are not set by someone sitting down with comparative price lists. Instead, they are market prices in a free market: people buy and sell foreign currency like they buy stocks and shares. Popular currencies are worth more because higher demand pushes up the price. If a country is seen as potentially having economic problems, like inflation, but also anything else from a long list, some of the people who buy and sell currencies get worried about its currency, because based on past experience the currency goes down in value. So some of the people who have that currency rush to sell it. Because supply exceeds demand, the price goes down, and the prophecy is fulfilled. The price stabilises only when the remaining currency is held be people who think the value is "about right" or that it will go up within their investment timeframe. In the past few years the US dollar to pound rate has varied between about 1.30 and 1.80. This doesn't mean that the prices of goods have varied by that much; each country has had slow domestic inflation. People travelling abroad and people buying imported goods are the innocent pawns of the people who make the important decisions: currency speculators. Notinasnaid 14:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Comparison of urban studies departments in the US?

Where can I get information on relative judgements on quality of teaching and research of urban studies depts at US Universities? I'm interested in some govt or independent survey. Thanks! 71.34.105.97 19:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to answer a question like this before and it is not as easy as it seems. Independent ranking organizations tend to rank the entire university rather than individual schools within the university. Notable exceptions being medical, business, and law schools. You can find a list of schools offering degrees in urban studies here [16]. From there you would have to do some research on each school you might be interested in to see how much they publish in journals and if there any faculty who you would like to work with. If anyone can find better info, I will be curious to see it. Nowimnthing 19:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I noticed on their website that Portland State says they ranked 3rd in the country (their US dept) in the most recent survey, but couldn't figure out which survey. I called them, but of course, couldn't find anyone who knew anything about it. 71.34.105.97 19:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. You might try the Journal of Urban Affairs one of those topic specific journals are the most likely place to find rankings. Nowimnthing 20:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

voting

Why do we always vote on Tuesdays

One assumes that by "we" you mean citizens of the United States, in which case there is some information at Election Day (United States), as well as an informative (if overly Flash-reliant) external link. --LarryMac 19:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It varies between countries. The UK General Elections always happen on Thursdays. In Australia all federal, state and municipal elections happen on Saturdays. JackofOz 20:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting, it wouldn't occur to me that in Parliamentary systems like the UK or Australia there would be a set day of the week for elections, as up here in Canada there is no set day, an election can be called for virtually any day of the week (although they're almost invariably held on a Sunday or a Monday). Is it actually by law that the UK and Australia have elections on those days, or is it just a practice that's gone on long enough that people take it for granted (and as such it would be very unpopular for a government to break with tradition and hold an election on another day)? Loomis51 21:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

In Australia, it is compulsory to vote - or, at least, attend the polling booth and get your name ticked off the roll. Making it impossible for Australians to meet their legal responsibility to vote is likely to be *very* unpopular.--Robert Merkel 00:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware of that Australian law. I'm just not sure how that relates to the discussion. All I can do is speak of Canadian electoral law, where on election day, employers are required by law to provide a certain number of hours off work to allow employees to vote. Loomis51 00:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's on Saturday because section 158 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act says so. That's for Federal elections. I'm guessing there would be similar provisions in State legislation. JackofOz 11:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe we (Americans) vote on Tuesdays because in the olden days, some people would travel overnight to vote, and they didn't want to travel on a Sunday. Today, of course, people can't be bothered to drive 5 minutes to the polling station sometimes. -- Mwalcoff 04:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

In the UK, there is no law stating that elections must be held on a Thursday, and on rare occasions, they have been held on other days. It is merely a tradition, and a fairly recent one - the 1931 UK general election was held on a Tuesday. Warofdreams talk 01:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

According to Schott's Almanac, Thursdays were originally chosen as being the days "furthest from the influence of the paypacket (Friday) or pulpit (Sunday)." FWIW here in New Zealand they're normally on Saturdays. Grutness...wha? 09:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

In Brazil we always vote on Sunday, and election day is a holiday. Anyway, I'm not sure how interesting this information is. A.Z. 01:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You mean Sunday isn't a day off anyway? JackofOz 10:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

There are people who work on Sunday. Now I remember seeing a debate on TV these days about the election day in US and in Brazil. In Brazil, election day is on Sunday, and it's a holiday, and voting is compulsory. You have to be in your town to vote, but if you are not, then you have to justify not voting. So in Brazil election is in such a way everyone has to vote. In US, it is not a holiday and voting is not compulsory, so people who vote really want to vote. Maybe that's a reason why it's on Tuesday, because people got up early after the weekend sleeping more than usual and they are too tired to go voting, so that only people who really want to vote do so.A.Z. 14:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Trojan War infobox

There is a disagreement on whether an military conflict infobox should be included in the Trojan War. We would like to know if it is official Wikipedia policy to have infoboxes in fictional and semi-ficitonal Wars. Please answer in the Trojan War discussion page Ikokki 19:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The best place to get some discussion on this would be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. The final answer you should expect: there is no "official" policy, and so work out a compromise with your collaborators on the article. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 21:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe most historians consider the Trojan War to have been an actual war. Having occurred in the prehistoric period (in that part of the world), however, our accounts of it are quite sketchy, based almost entirely on the highly fictionalized Iliad, as recorded by Homer. StuRat 02:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think if the article is based on the fictionalized Iliad, it's the sources and not the infobox that's the problem. Apparently precedent allows such boxes on fictional battles (see Ministry of Magic#Department of Mysteries if you feel Harry Potter-inclined)

Burlesque Comedian Harry Evanson information sought

Harry Evanson was my great uncle. I know that he was a burlesque comedian. Form Wikipedia and the internet I have also found references that state that he worked with Bud Abbot of Abbot and Costello fame at one time.

I would appreciate anyone who could lead me to sources of additional information. StephenSS 20:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Note: anyone who finds additional sources, please also add them directly to the Harry Evanson article.--M@rēino 21:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• A quick question - was that article a live link when you posted that comment? It no longer appears to exist. Road Wizard 23:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it never had an article. -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|M|E|666} 01:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Distance Traveled for water.

What is the estimated distance traveled in undeveloped countries for water? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.214.64 (talk • contribs)

• The answer will vary HUGELY depending on the local climate. In The Gambia, for example, the answer is "a couple meters, tops." In the Kalahari desert, you might be in for a 300-km hike.--M@rēino 21:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Actually, I think the question may be about potable water. I doubt there is any sort of useful general number, but the UNDP Human Development Report country stats on access to improved water sources (linked here, scroll down to "water") would be a nice starting point to get a grasp on the situation. - BT 15:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Deaths?

Did any of the workers or people involved in the carving of Mount Rushmore die? (During construction, of course) --71.98.6.115 21:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No, they are all immortal

Now now, be nice. If you mean were any workers killed while working on the carving, then no, according to [17] "Not a single worker was killed working on the carving...". The man who organised the project, Gutzon Borglum did die of an unrelated embolism in 1941 before it was completed, and his son completed the carving. --Canley 00:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

June 7

Untitled Question

What is the difference between logical doubt and psychological doubt? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.82.247 (talk • contribs)

see doubt and skepticism. Nowimnthing 01:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Verifying a Bushism

I've been checking the status of some Bushisms mentioned in a Sydney Morning Herald article. According to "Putting the Lie to Bushisms" at Irregular Times, two of the quotes were said by Dan Qayle. The third one is "One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures". Some web pages cite this article. But the article doesn't give any details about where or when it was said. Is the quote real or false? Andjam 02:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, but I recommend the "Bushisms" column at Slate (http://www.slate.come), by Jacob Weinstein. He's been compiling the real ones for 6 years or so and has them published in book form. Geogre 05:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Genuine Bushisms, by both father and son, tend to feature misuse of words. Quayleisms tend to use words properly, but be either at right angles to reality or jaw-droppingly stupid. In general, if you see Bush quoted as saying something daft that's not a malaprop, it's either made up or Bush said it as a joke.--M@rēino 14:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My fav Bushism (paraphrased): "Terrorists are trying to destroy America, but we can't let them, that's our job." StuRat 20:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

ISTR it was actually closer to "Our enemies... never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." Grutness...wha? 10:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This one is not so stupid after all. When you think about defence, you have to think about new ways of attack - in order to prevent them. Crocodealer 08:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Army secret projects in New Mexico

My grandfather graduated from college with a degree in chemical engineering shortly after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. As a patriotic young man, he joined the army. Once he finished basic training, he was told that since he had the degree, he had two choices: he could be part of a secret project in southern Utah, or be part of a secret project in northern New Mexico. He chose Utah, and spent the war designing explosives. He's always wondered what the other secret project was. The obvious candidate is the Manhattan Project, but were there any other secret projects going on in northern New Mexico at the time that would have needed a chemical engineer? --Carnildo 03:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Possibly there was a project that was so secret (or unsuccessful) we haven't found out about it. AllanHainey 12:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My guess is that it was Los Alamos; I've never heard of any other secret projects in northern New Mexico of any size that would definitely require chemical engineers by the dozen. --Fastfission 18:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Could have been what's now Sandia also. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure they'd need huge numbers of chemical engineers there in 1943-1944 or so. It's possible, though. --Fastfission 21:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out where the original question indicated dozens or huge numbers of chemical engineers rather than one. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was going on the rather Copernican principle that assumed his grandfather wasn't special in his situation, and that it was representative of a larger trend. (I have no reason to assume this, other than the way the poster worded it, which made it sound like a matter-of-fact choice rather than something special.) --Fastfission 13:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, yeah -- just how many recruits with CE degrees would the Army have had? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 03:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad according to the Hadith/Qur'an?

Does anyone know of a biography (preferably online, at this point) of Muhammad that relies heavily on the hadith and/or the Qur'an? Most of what I can find are based on cotemporary biographies and/or the sira. The Jade Knight 05:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Eureka Stockade

why was the Eureka Stokade important to gold miners?

Have you tried looking at our article on Eureka Stockade? Once you've read that, feel free to come back and ask about anything you don't understand.-gadfium 06:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Burmese greeting

What form of greeting should be used towards a Burmese Theravadin monk? Is a bow with folded hands sufficient, or is there something one would say? --Shantavira 08:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You might want to ask this question at the Language desk as well. If you do, however, make sure to mention that the question is here as well to prevent duplication of effort. Road Wizard 08:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Holy Grail

Please could you tell me whay Holy Grail is?

There is an article called Holy Grail about it. Flamarande 12:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't be afraid to use the search box. You'll find it a lot quicker.--Shantavira 12:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily, people have been searching for the holy grail for hundreds of years. AllanHainey 12:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Having recently seen The Da Vinci Code, I could tell you what the Holy Grail is, but I don't want to spoil the plot. JIP | Talk 13:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

When I went, they found it in the audience.--M@rēino 13:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Having read The Dark is Rising series, I can tell you it's already found and placed in a museum, but very few people know what it is. Thus Dan Brown must be wrong, because his Holy Grail didn't have any secret messages in it. Skittle 14:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking the holy grail is definitely part of Audrey Tautou's body, but I can't decide which. (She's so hot. Especially when she calculated 26⁵ in like two seconds, that was so sexy.) 69.252.190.41 04:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The holy grail is hidden in a castle in St Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh's. AllanHainey 08:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• In case you were still wondering, the above answers should show you that there's no agreement about what or where the Holy Grail is and if it even exists. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• The first iteration of the myth comes from Cretien de Troyes in Roman de la Rose, and it concerns Parsifal being shown the hidden relic of the chalice (pretty clearly the chalice) of the last supper. In other words, its first appearance is in a work of fiction. While some people, like Jesse L. Weston in the famous From Ritual to Romance have suggested that the grail myth bears striking resemblances to fertility cults going back to Osiris and that there is a vegetative structure inherent, all such mythography is after the fact, and I don't think she argues that Cretien was actually working from a source like that as much as that he re-encoded a tale that had existed in folk form in various syncretized forms. Geogre 02:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Looking for title of video

Hi there! This is a very random question, but here goes: I'm looking for the title of a short comic video clip which a friend showed to me a while back (unfortunately, she couldn't remember where she had found it!). It's about ten minutes long and is about a dog (puppet) who 'interviews' the people standing in line for the opening night of Star Wars Attack of the Clones. The dog often has a cigar in his mouth, speaks with a strong accent (something like Italian, I think) and permanently makes fun of the people he interviews. Amongst others, he talk to several people dressed as Jedi, someone dressed as Darth Vader, a girl, and someone dressed like a wizard. I know this all sounds very strange, but does anyone have the slightest clue what I'm talking about? Thanks muchly in advance! — QuantumEleven 19:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It is Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog from the Conan O'Brian show. --Kainaw ^(talk) 20:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's it - Kainaw, you're fantastic :) — QuantumEleven 20:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Try to search out his* weather report for Hawaii some time. It's hilarious. *Triumph's not Kainaw's. Although if he chose to do one, Kainaw's might be hilarious too. --LarryMac 20:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I vacationed in Hawaii for 7 months. The weather report is always the same. A chubby guy in a flower shirt says, "Ahhh, the wedder. It gonna mid-80 and partly cloudy." In the late winter, he adds, "Spect a touch of liquid sunshine in da afternoon. Aloha." Then, they cut to a cool helicopter fly over Oahu while playing Kaaaia Five ... Kaaaia Five ... Now, I'm staring out across the skyline of Charleston and watching fat people board the Queen Mary II. I wish I was back in Hawaii. --Kainaw ^(talk) 13:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Largest libraries

I am looking for a list of the largest academic libraries in the United States, by volume or any other measure. -mercuryboard^talk ♠ 20:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Try Library of Congress. Wait it´s not an academic library. Try List of university libraries Flamarande 21:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• I know about the Library of Congress. I'm looking for a list of libraries. A ranking by some measure, preferably volume. -mercuryboard^talk ♠ 21:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you try Googling it? I put in "largest libraries United States" and got a bunch of useful links, i.e. [18][19][20]. Separating out the academic ones shouldn't be hard. --Fastfission 21:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• The LoC is first and foremost a national library, not an academic one. Widener Library claims that the Harvard library system is the largest in the world, though that's more than just one institution; [21] is a source cited for that and tells you pretty much the answer. Shimgray | talk | 21:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I tried googling but didn't find any of these. Strange. Thanks! -mercuryboard^talk ♠ 21:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hail! Hail! The Gang's All Here

I was wondering what year the song "Hail! Hail! The Gang's All Here" was written? My music states that it was written by Arthur Sullivan. Is that the same Arthur Sullivan who collaborated with Gilbert Sullivan?

Robyn Vitson

According to this site, it was written by Theodore Morse and published in 1917. Sullivan wrote the music to the song, but it's part of The Pirates of Penzance, and the lyrics for Hail Hail the Gang's All Here were not the original lyrics to Sullivan's music. User:Zoe|^(talk) 00:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Help identifying music?

Does anyone know what this music: File:Unknownmusic.ogg is called? When was it written, and by whom? (I will delete the sound clip if it turns out to be necessary for copyright reasons.) Thanks in advance. --BrainInAVat 00:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's Sabre Dance. —Keenan Pepper 04:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep, definitely is. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 10:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

June 8

New Delhi food delivery system

Hi peeps! I was reading somewhere recently about a mobile food distribution system in India (New Delhi I think) that is considered to be the most efficient delivery system in the world. The basic idea is that business people that are far to busy to leave their office to go out for lunch have meals delivered to their door - hot, steamy, on time every time, down to the last minute. I'd really like to learn more about this system but can't find the info anywhere. Can someone help?

Thanks,

Lockie

You are undoubedly thinking of the Dabbawalas of Mumbai. DJ Clayworth 20:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. That's it!

Largest University Presses

I am looking for a ranking of the largest university presses in the United States, ideally by book output, but any ranking will do. -mercuryboard^talk ♠ 02:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Fraternities and sororities

I am looking for a list of United States colleges and universities ranked the number of students in fraternities and sororities, percent of students in fraternities and sororities, or the number of recognized fraternity and sorority chapters. -mercuryboard^talk ♠ 02:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Those statistics are kept by Baron's Guide to Colleges and Universities. I'm sure they have an online presence. If not that, look for the online presence of the Pan-Hellenic Council for the US. While I doubt Wikipedia has this list or is very accurate, if it does, this data is out there. Geogre 02:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking for the data online from any source that might have it, and can't find it... The Barron's website is selling books. -mercuryboard^talk ♠ 03:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

French occupied couture.

I know the Nazis allowed some of the French couture houses to remain open during the occupation, but I don't know which houses. I have also read that the houses that did remain open during the occupation produced some very elaborate collections, but I have never seen any photos or illustrations of any examples. I'm also wondering if these collections pretty much maintained the 1939 silhouette, or did the clothing evolve into more of a 40's look? Thanks -

There's a book called Fashion Under the Occupation [22] by Dominque Veillon Published by Berg in 2002 that might be of help. Also, an article called "Work and Function of the Paris Couture Industry During the German Occupation of 1940-1941" by Lou Taylor in the journal Dress, v. 22, 1995, pages 34-44. Your local library should also be able to help you get copies of both.

Pickerism (sic), a psychological disorder?

I am seeking information regarding pickerism (spelling may be incorrect), which I anecdotaly understand to refer to a preference for poking or stabbing with a tool or utensil. It may be a form of sexual sadism, but I do not have sufficient informations to so classify. I have been told, with no referene authority that it is commen in gay male relationships that are characterized by violence within the relationship. A "google" search only referred to some response to a question about song lyrics. I would like some more credible information regarding this phemomenon.

Thank you for your assistance.

Kristine W. Cannon 07/06/06 10:55 p.m.

• Piquerism. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Ugly Laws

Does any one know of any laws against people being Physically ugly??..(any where around the world?)

No. You might get some funny looks, but you can go anywhere you like. There's a great big world beyond Coorparoo. If Shrek can do it, you can. --Shantavira 17:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If you want to rationalize, you can claim that "rules against obesity" are "laws against ugliness". There are weight restrictions (based on laws) at amusement parks. Airlines charge for extra seats. Of course, you'd be arguing that the rules are laws and that obesity is ugly. --Kainaw ^(talk) 00:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There have been "involuntary euthanasia" campaigns against people who were physically disabled (i.e. T-4 Euthanasia program). Again, that's not the same thing at all as being ugly, but is in right subjective-criteria-for-fitness ballpark. --Fastfission 19:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The Nazis, of course, allowed disabled people to be experimented upon (as well as twins), though I can't recall the name of the doctor who supervised this. EvocativeIntrigue 16:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You're apparently referring to Dr. Josef Mengele. The article is actually an interesting read, but just in case, I suggest you have a bucket nearby to vomit into should the need arise. Loomis51 20:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Persian Mythology

I was wondering if anyone knows information about the Persian demon 'Dev', all I know is that it was a God of War but I would like to find out much more about it. Thanks in advance.

You must be wrong, if it's not on wikipedia, it does not exist! VdSV9•♫ 10:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Try Div (Persian mythology), perhaps this is what you are looking for. Flamarande 10:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey! would you look at that... Let's add it to the Dev disambiguation page...

... VdSV9•♫ 11:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Prince of Orange

(no question asked)

Probable answer: Prince of Orange. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 13:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Plausible but unlikely answer - it was a song by Andy Partridge (of XTC). Grutness...wha? 02:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

And your evidence for the "unlikely" bit is ......?? JackofOz 06:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Implausible Jeopardy question: "Who is the son of the King of Red and the Queen of Yellow?" - Nunh-huh 06:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Arthur C. Clarke Article

In the Article of Arthur C. Clarke, I Couldn't found the book "The Reefs of Taprobane" from his triology "The Blue Planet Triology" in the book index.

So anyone who knows the exact details of that book, It is better to update the article. Thank You.

Sithara from Sri Lanka.

Taprobane being an old name for Sri Lanka. --DLL 22:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

More details on Munagapati in andhra kshatriyas

Please provide much details on munagapati in kshatriyas Is there any relation between padmashali munagapati, kshatriya munagapati

Pres.Clinton and missing plane

Does anyone know about the civilian aircraft shot down in the USSR during the cold war that was a scandinavian air liner? The plane was shot down on a frozen lake and survivers were seen by another airliner. The plane had American citizens on it. President Clinton declaired their fate an offical secret of the US early in his administration. The matter was remarked on in a work of literary fiction but was actually a fact. 24.0.47.184 16:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Nothing appears to match that description at our list of accidents and incidents on commercial airliners grouped by location. I would suggest that, if your only reference is a work of fiction, the incident is probably fiction. — Lomn Talk 17:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It was a KAL airliner, and it went into Soviet airspace from Korea. It was almost certainly not engaged in any intentional espionage, but the Soviets shot it down automatically. I'm not sure if we have an article on it, though. I'm also fairly certain that it was prior to Bill Clinton's presidency. Geogre 17:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Good call, though I think you're mixing Korean Air Flight 7 (which entered Soviet airspace in the vicinity of Korea) with Korean Air Flight 902 (which crash-landed on a frozen lake near Scandinavia in 1978). I still don't see any ties to Clinton or a US declaration of secrecy, though. — Lomn Talk 17:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, quite. There is no declaration of secrecy. (Also, if there were, it would be a pretty crummy secret if we knew about it.) It wasn't Clinton, either. I think the author our questioner read was mixing matters to come up with a plausible secret. After all, tensions between the Soviet Union and the US were nil during Clinton as the Soviet Union was nil. Geogre 21:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was going to mention that there was no USSR during the Clinton administration, since it dissolved in 1991 and Clinton didn't actually come into power until 1993. --Fastfission 14:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Indian history fort timeline

I am Rahul, and I need to make a project on forts of indai. Even after searching all I could, I was unable to find out these details, and if you could help me, I would be eternally graterful. -->The order in which different dyansties which came to india and built forts. if you could, what i need is something like this: |Name of ruler/Dynasty | name of fort | time it was built | if possible, a table would be great. I will really appreciate anyone who might help me out. Thanking you, Rahul (i dont know how to sign, im sorry)

To sign your comments, simply add ~~~~ to the end of your last sentence.

The article on the Mughal Empire mentions a fort called Agra that was built by Akbar. I will keep an eye out for other information for you, but Indian history isn't one of my strong points, sorry. Road Wizard 21:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Update - the Delhi article mentions construction of several forts. Road Wizard 21:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The best way to get this information would be to through the articles at Category:Forts in India and pick out the figures you need. - SimonP 21:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Nazi

Why was the full form of NAZI as <something something>

== Socialist ==

party?

Have you read the article on the Nazi Party? Within, you will note that it was a small party formed by discontents with the Wiemar government after WWI. Hitler was assigned to infiltrate it and then took the party over, changing the objectives but retaining the name. Socialism was always strong in Germany: prior to WWI it was more influential in Germany than any other European state, having won advances in protection, wages, working hours etc. for German workers. Also see National Socialism and corporate state.--Shandon 17:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Napolean Bonparte

What did Napolean Bonparte give to his wife for a wedding gift.....

• Which one? He had two wives; first Joséphine de Beauharnais and later Marie Louise, Duchess of Parma. Road Wizard 21:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• I believe this question comes from The Terminal, which is playing (ad nauseum) on HBO in the US just about now. Geogre 21:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

To Destiny. --DLL 22:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Googling this suggests it was a gold medallion with the inscription: "To Destiny" (whereupon she replied "But Nappie, my name's Marie.") That last bit was apocryphal.--Shantavira 15:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

William Shakespear's Works

Does Shakespeare' s words sell in Japan? I want to look at a sample. And I want to judge. Although there is little marketability, I think that there is idea nature. Sincerely yours Masami Kiuchi

• Shakespeare's works are almost certainly sold in Japan somewhere, probably both in original English and Japanese translations. However, you can read his work in English for free by going to Wikisource. There is also a Japanese Wikisource, but I don't know enough of the language yet to see if it contains a translation of his work. Road Wizard 23:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just pointing out that the question has been rephrased since I left my answer. My answer may or may not apply to the current question. Road Wizard 06:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Akira Kurosawa adapted multiple plays by Shakespeare into Japanese language films, including Ran and Throne of Blood (English titles), based on King Lear and Macbeth, respectively. Yes, his works sell in Japan, though, of course, no poetry ever translates. Geogre 02:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
• I had heard Shakespeare is quite big in Japan, there are certainly a lot of Japanese Tourists all over Shakespeareville every summer. AllanHainey 07:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Where in Japan do I go to purchase copies of Shakespeare's works in Japanese language? Thankyou Peyton Jones ukupfront@yahoo.com

Waistcoats

The article on waistcoats says the coat should be cut from the same material as the rest of the suit but I saw someone at the summer ball wearing a waistcoat with a white swirly sort of pattern on it that their dinner jacket did not have.

No, our article says that that was the fashion in the 19th century. - Nunh-huh 23:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

June 9

Gospel Breakfast

What is the origin and any verifiable history surrounding the phrase "gospel breakfast". Thanks in advance for any help with this.

I think it is actually the Last Supper. --Brand спойт 11:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't verify a specific origin for the phrase, but to me it would make sense if the tradition originated from the incident in John 19, where Jesus makes breakfast , and Peter is told to take care of the flock. --Seejyb 21:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

In all sincerity, the kind of event I associate with "gospel breakfast" is like this one. --Metropolitan90 03:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I see. That seems quite common (now that I've googled the phrase). But US gospel has a flavour of it's own. In a local Methodist church (in Africa) a gospel breakfast is a sober community building and direction discussing event, held on a Sunday in lieu of a formal service. That does not help the questioner much, unfortunately --Seejyb 16:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Shakespeare

I am beginning the process of writing articles for each of Shakespeare's sonnets. Would it be considered original research to engage in some light, unadventurous analysis of the text? I realize that sometimes criticism can be subjective, but perhaps explicative analysis of generally-held interpretations would improve ones understanding of the article and improve the quality of Wikipedia. Adambiswanger1 04:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't be original research if you could source your comments. If you're writing generally-held interpretations, you should be able to find them written somewhere (such as a pedagogic book, the kind they often use in schools, or in the notes in a collection of poems) and cite these sources. If you're not sure how to include the sources, post them (and roughly what they say that is relevant) on the article talk page, drop me a note and I'll add them. Skittle 12:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The rule I follow (and I sometimes have to bat away charges of OR) is that if an interpretation can be found in 3 or more sources, you can regard it as non-controversial, as "common knowledge," and therefore don't need to note it. For example, saying that My mistress's eyes are nothing like the sun is a poem written to ironically praise the mistress at the same time as deflating romantic conventions is an interpretation, but there's no way you'd need to note that. Every person who says anything about the sonnet says as much, so noting is just silly. Between that extreme and, say, presenting a Greenblatt observation (repeated by 3 other New Historicists) as true, there is a continuum. The less controversial and common a reading is, the less you'd need to cite it, I'd say. Geogre 12:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You do still have to source 'common knowledge', but people might be a bit more lenient about leaving it in while you do. After all, many things are common knowledge and not true. Obvious it may be, but you still need to cite it, at least loosely. Skittle 13:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we differ on this and must remain at difference. One needs to be able to cite, but actually citing would make articles on artworks infinite in their footnotes. Like I said, it's a continuum. The more novel and fringe, the greater the need to cite. The more obvious-as-a-stone it is, the less. Ultimately, it's up to the editor to judge carefully and to be prepared, if necessary, to cite. However, if a single person asks for a source of something absolutely the case, it might be possible to cite on the talk page. Again, it depends, and there isn't a rule, except to say that you need to be able to cite everything, but citing everything just generates clutter and devalues the citations. Geogre 14:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are able to cite, the source should be in the article. If readers can't see the source, what good is it? It doesn't have to make the footnotes infinite, because if you are using a couple of books as a source for your whole 'interpretation' section, you only need to footnote them once each, at the end of the section. If the whole article draws on common ideas, you can list a couple of books as bibliography. Being able to cite is not enough, as what happens if you go off somewhere and someone wants to know how you justified something? Skittle 14:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks that helps alot. I'll spread the word to other editors Adambiswanger1 13:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I am looking fro Shakespeare's works in the Japanese Language? Thanks, ukupfront@yahoo.com

Can cheat device patch codes be copyrighted?

Often when searching for Game Genie (or similar) patch codes I find the author has made claims of copyright (see The Code Hut for instance). I'm not asking for genuine legal advice, but are such claims valid under US copyright law?

The way I see it patch codes are facts, and therefore uncopyrightable. The Master Sword dealing 3 damage would be a fact, and that damage rating being stored in the memory address 7FFFFF would also be a fact. Therefore you can claim ownership of your presentation of these facts, but not of the facts themselves.

So, anyway, am I right or are they? Garrett^Talk 03:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(IANAL) Yes, with the caveat that in a number of jurisdictions collections of bare facts may be copyrightable works. So if you copy a single patch code you're in the clear, but if you take a whole bunch they can come after you for that. See database rights. EdC 06:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Patches are computer programs and although fixing an error in an existing program is less exciting than creating a new one from the ground up, I would say that writing such a program can be seen as an act of creativity and is therefore copyrightable. It's not the fact or error that's copyrighted, but the program/patch. And facts can actually be copyrighted. I could for example write a book on the party game Mafia and copyright it. People would be prohibited from copying the exact wording of the text and present it as their own (or copy it and cheat me out of the income for said text), but they would still be allowed to write about the facts of the game (i.e. the basic day/night format, voting and common strategies). - 131.211.210.10 08:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Facts" in a legally defined sense cannot be copyrighted. Certain expressions can, and certain arrangements of them can, but not facts themselves. When one is talking about "facts about a fictional work," though, it begins to slide into being a derivative work very quickly. Fictional works are generally more strongly protected by courts in the U.S. than are non-fiction works. --Fastfission 14:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• My guess is that the most relevant caselaw would be Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., but that doesn't really shed light on this question. Looking at the compilations of the codes themselves, they look at a lot like they would fall under some form of "slavish copying" to me, and not creative works, though there would be a very weak argument to the fact that selecting out which codes were "beneficial" requires some subjectivity, but it would be a very weak claim IMO. In the end, I'd guess the knowledge that X code has X effect is not copyrightable, and neither is the collection of them. IANAL, etc. --Fastfission 14:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm, some very interesting replies! I had no idea even the database claim has been challenged. For my part I'm only intending to pick out a few choice codes in order to embellish some guides without delaying for permission, and it looks like I can definitely do that. Thanks for all the feedback. :) Garrett^Talk 07:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Birklid v. Boeing Co

I can not figure out what this case is. I would be very grateful if you could help me with a brief summary. thank you.

Try e.g. this. --Brand спойт 11:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Newgate nonsense

Ran across this in a Newgate Calendar: Writ of Capias ad Computandum. Neither WP nor WT has anything on it. Anyone know? This was from at least ~1630. 68.39.174.238 11:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Writ of "amount to compute?" It sounds...strange. It may be nonsense, or it might be a one-time writ demanding loot (to be counted to determine the extent of a theft) or records of a fraud (demanding the ledgers). It could be a valid court demand, but it's nothing I've ever heard of before. Then again, the codex was still...fluid. Giles Jacob would come later, as would Shenstone and Blackmore. Geogre 12:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I have found a reference to it at the Legal Dictionary. From the description provided there, it appears to be a writ to arrest a defendant who has failed to appear before an auditor. Road Wizard 20:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Republic

Does a man who wants to run to become a member of the Assembly of Experts have to be a mullah, that is, does he need to have attained doctoral-level education in Islam? If not, do you know how many of the 86 members are not akhoonds?Patchouli 11:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I believe this question is about Iran. StuRat 20:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow

I recently received an e-mail, which claimed the following.

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846 and John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860 and JFK in 1960. Lincoln 's secretary was named Kennedy while Kennedy's - Lincoln.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights. Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.

Both presidents were shot on a Friday and both in the head. Lincoln was shot at the Ford theater, Kennedy was shot in "Lincoln" made by "Ford". Lincoln was as shot in a theater and his assassin ran and hid in a warehouse. Kennedy was shot from a warehouse and his assassin ran and hid in a theater. Both presidents were assassinated by Southerners and were succeeded by Southerners named Johnson. John Wilkes Booth was born in 1839 and Lee Harvey Oswald - in 1939. Both assassins were known by their three names and both names are composed of fifteen letters and both assasins were assassinated before their trials. Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808 while Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe, Maryland. And a week before Kennedy was shot, he was with Marilyn Monroe.

Creepy, huh? --Brand спойт 11:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That's as old as the hills. See http://www.snopes.com/history/american/linckenn.htm Jooler 11:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes these things are made up, I recently recieved one qouting all these numbers about 9/11 and how they are all related to the number 911, and a passage from the koran about how an eagle cleanses the islamic world after years of hurt (supposedly reffering to america), it all turned out to be bullshit, the numbers were fiddled, and the passage was made up. Philc _T^E_C^I 12:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

We have an article on these supposed coincidences. See List of similarities between Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy. JackofOz 12:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that a coincidence is not amazing. What would be amazing is if Kennedy and Lincoln had nothing in common. You can pick any two random people and find all kinds of coincidences. There are only 12 months - so the chance is high that they were born in the same month. Go back to their grandparents. Each person has at least 4 grandparents (no W. Virgina jokes), which means they likely have 8 names (first/middle for each grandparent). The chance is very high that any two people have at least one grandparent name in common. It goes on and on. I like a comment some physicist made: A coincidence isn't amazing. A complete lack of coincidences is. --Kainaw ^(talk) 12:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

My only comment on that is that the chance of having the same birth month as another person chosen at random is 1/12 = 8.33%. This is not exactly what I would call a "high" probability. JackofOz 12:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the probability of a date falling in a particular month is not a constant, but will vary on the length of the month. If it's a month of 31 days, the probability is 8.46%; for a month of 30 days, it's 8.21%; and if it's February, the chances are 7.73%. But it's that level of magnitude we're talking about. JackofOz 13:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The cahnce of finding someone with their birthday in a specific month is indeed 1/12, but I suspect the chance of finding two people with their birthdays in the same month out of the list of presidents is considerably more. After all, once you have more than 12 presidents it becomes a certainty. Skittle 13:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, more births occur in some months than in others, so I suspect the chance would be higher than the theoretical 1/12. - Mgm|^(talk) 21:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Or like Penn and Teller in their Bullsh*t show talking about the virgin mary grilled cheese, "Think how many billions of grilled cheese sandwiches are eaten every year. It would be crazy to think that there could not be at least a few that looked like a woman with a scarf on her head, hell most of us have probably eaten one without realizing it." Nowimnthing 12:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This is probably covered in our article mentioned by JackofOz, but the place Booth was shot (not really assassinated) is always described as a barn, not a warehouse. Also, Oswald usually went by two names in his lifetime (Lee Oswald). --Cam

While some of the data was likely massaged to make it appear to be more of a coincidence than it really is, there still does seem to be an amazing amount of coincidence there, especially if you only look at the short list of assassinated US Presidents for similarities. However, if you look at the huge list of all things ever compared for similarities (the 9-11 attacks vs Pearl Harbor, the two space shuttle disasters, etc.), I suppose you would expect to eventually find a pair with an amazing degree of similarities. Also, it's possible that Oswald arranged for some of the coincidences, based on his knowledge of the Lincoln assassination. Nut jobs sometimes do that type of thing. StuRat 20:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Booth wasn't assassinated, he was simply tracked down by the authorities, who found him holed up in a barn. True, the particular officer who fired the fatal shot fired against orders, but nonetheless he was cleared of all charges of misconduct and awarded the bounty for tracking down Lincoln's killer. Rather a different story from that of Jack Ruby, I'd say. Loomis51 02:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing the article doesn't really say is that neither Booth nor Oswald was ever convicted of the crime. There's a considerable amount of evidence that supports the view that Oswald was not the killer of JFK at all. There's certainly room for reasonable doubt. So if anyone arranged for anything to be coincidental, it's less likely to have been Oswald doing the arranging. JackofOz 05:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The only reason they weren't convicted is that they were dead and we don't bother trying dead people in the US. This does not justify a conclusion that they were innocent. By the same justification, one could argue that, since Hitler never was tried and convicted at the Nuremberg trials, he must therefore be innocent. StuRat 04:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit wild, StuRat, even for you (lol). I never said either of them was innocent, I said that in Oswald's case there is room for reasonable doubt. There has never been any doubt Booth killed Lincoln, because he was seen in the act (although there is some suggestion that the person shot in the barn was not Booth, but that's another story). No such evidence exists for Oswald, and there's plenty of evidence that others were involved. At the very least there was a conspiracy, it certainly was not just Oswald acting alone. As to who fired the fatal shot/s, people have been debating this for 43 years and probably will do so forever. Better minds than mine have concluded Oswald could not possibly have been the sole assassin of JFK, but whether he was somehow involved and therefore complicit in the crime, or just an innocent patsy who had nothing (or nothing significant) to do with it, is one of life's great imponderables. JackofOz 07:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Guessing game

Is anyone aware of a game on the internet where they show you the photo of a person, and you have to guess where he's from, based on facial features, costume, etc. ? Or, maybe, any other similar games? deeptrivia (talk) 12:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I vaguely remember some sort of game where only a section of the face (for example, just the mouth and chin, or just the area around the eyes) would be displayed, and you would have to guess what celebrity was being shown. I don't even remember whether this was online, on TV, or in print. --Tachikoma 14:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is always gash or tash. (Disturbing image warning. Do not click this at the office.). --Shantavira 14:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, by similar games, I meant games involving indentification of nationality of a person based on typical characteristics, based on hints, visual or otherwise. deeptrivia (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sound like one of the sites created with the goal of proving that there is absolutely no such thing as race or ethnicity. So, they show you a black man wearing African clothing and ask where he is from. Africa, right? Nope, he's actually an Inuit in dark makup and clothing that he normally would never ever wear. See - there's no such thing as race! --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I mean, I met an Asian guy, and asked if he were Korean, and he was! I was pretty impressed with myself. Then I asked a girl if she was Thai, and she really was. If this were not enough, I asked another Asian guy if he were Vietnamese, and he really was! This is too much for me, and I want to test if I have a special gift of guessing people's nationalities. I need something like a game for testing myself :) deeptrivia (talk) 22:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

We used to play "Dead or Canadian" once in awhile, but not on the internet. --LarryMac 19:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

obesity tax

hi, i recently watched a documentary (in the UK) which basically argued that obese people should pay more income tax than non-obsese people. i found myself (to my eternal shame) thinking that the arguments where quite compelling (especially in the UK where the government picks up 100% of people's health care costs - the documentary estimated that all in all, obese people cost taxpayers £3 billion!) anyway, aside from the slightly nazi implications, are there any legal reasons (in the UK elsewhere) why such a scheme couldn't infact become reality? we do, for example, tax cigarettes on the same basis... thanks! 195.93.21.67 13:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't follow you. If you were convinced by the arguments, how could this be a cause for shame? JackofOz 13:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think a tax directly on a certain sort of people (such as increased income tax for the obese) would fall foul of Human Rights legislation. However, the actual proposals I have heard involve increasing the VAT on heavily processed foods and very fatty/sugary products, possibly using this to fund subsidies on fresh fruit/veg. This is a much closer analogy to the cigarette tax, since it is a tax on the products people choose to use, not on the people. Smokers do not pay increased income tax, but they pay more tax if they choose to buy cigarettes. Equally, people who bought 'unhealthy' foods would be paying more tax in the form of VAT, but could choose to buy cheaper, more healthy foods. Interestingly, processed food usually already carry VAT that fresh, unprocessed foods do not, but it isn't consistent. Skittle 13:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps instead of a Value Added Tax, it should be called a (nutritional) Value Lost Tax ? :-) StuRat 20:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

ps. It could be a cause of shame in the same way as my mother considers it a cause of shame when she finds herself agreeing with the Daily Mail on immigrants. The feeling often suggests you've overlooked something. Skittle 13:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

its not that i'm actually "ashamed" ashamed - its just that i recognise that taxing people based on how they look is a incredably slippery slope. the documentary was suggesting an income tax on fat people but i guess increased VAT on fatty foods seems much more sensible.. 21:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh right. In any battle between the heart and the mind over your attitude to some proposal, I'd suggest you follow your heart. It may be legally and intellectually watertight, but if it still feels wrong, then as Skittle says, there's something else that's important to you that the proposal violates. JackofOz 02:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Our Mutual Friend, leaves, and Mr. Twemlow

I've begun to read Our Mutual Friend by Charles Dickens, and I'm rather puzzled by the description of Mr. Twemlow in Chapter 2. This description refers to Mr. Twemlow as a "piece of dinner-furniture". The text goes on to say:

"Mr. and Mrs. Veneering, for example, arranging a dinner, habitually started with Twemlow, and then put leaves in him, or added guests to him. Sometimes, the table consisted of Twemlow and half-a-dozen leaves; sometimes, of Twemlow and a dozen leaves; sometimes, Twemlow was pulled out to his utmost extent of twenty leaves."

I've figured out that the Veneerings must see Mr. Twemlow as someone essential to have at a dinner party, but at the same time, they must not value him as a person, hence the "piece of dinner-furniture" comparison.

I'm guessing that the leaves might refer to tables that can be extended by adding additional panels (leaves?) when hosting additional guests. Going further with this metaphor, if Mr. Twemlow is like a dinner table, then the addtional leaves must represent the additional guests, who like Twemlow, are not particularly valued as people but rather as furniture or decor--something to lend prestige to Mr. and Mrs. Veneering.

Does this interpretation sound reasonable, or am I missing something here?

Needless to say, this is not a homework question.--Tachikoma 13:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You're exactly right. He's a professional diner-out, like Hithladaeus in Utopia. The satire is both on him and the Veneerings, who are superficial people who don't look past the surface, and Dickens is making fun of the Victorian bourgeoise obsession with the "right" people for a dinner party. (Cf. Carlysle saying, "If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify Him. They would invite him to dinner, hear what He had to say, and make fun of him after He left."). So, you add pairings of guests (leaves) to him to make a dinner. Geogre 13:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the extremely quick response. I hope to eventually expand the article on Our Mutual Friend, and it generally helps to actually read the book before contributing to a book's Wikipedia article. At this point, I don't see the "furniture and leaves" question as being essential to such an article, but it does help my own understanding of what's going on.

Thanks again! --Tachikoma 14:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have a question. I don't expect anyone to be able to answer, but no reason not to ask it. Character names like "Veneering" or "Pistol" (Colley Cibber) or "Aimwell" (Wycherly) or "Allworthy" (Fielding) are names that describe the characteristics or actions of the characters. Is there a name for this rhetorical device? I've seen, recently, someone try to coin the term "aptonym" for people whose names are what they do (and the example was Tony Snow, who snows the press in his current job), but that smells false to me. Geogre 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that such a term exists, but I can't quite remember it. The term that comes to mind is antonomasia, but I'm not sure if that's it.--Tachikoma 16:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Not it, but thanks for the hint. It's maddening. I'm similarly sure that such a term should exist, but I still have been unable to find it. I've thought of chasing down the discussions of Theophrastus and of Humour Theory (which I have done), but nothing has yielded yet. Aristophanes gave his characters names that "meant" what they did, so there has certainly been time to come up with a term. Geogre 20:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Allegorical names, label names, aptronyms, euonyms (in decreasing order of my opinion of their pertinence...). - Nunh-huh 04:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I use compounds, too, for describing them. It's one of those things, though -- an area where it seems like the old Rhetoricians nodded. My own compound is even less elegant: "characteristic onomastics." Geogre 11:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

A "leaf" is an additional panel added to a table. I don't know how such things were arranged in Dickens's time, but there are many expandable dining tables for sale today. There is a divide in the middle of the table, two people pull the table at opposite ends and the divide opens up, and the leaf, a panel of the same material as the rest of the table, is inserted into the opening, making for a longer table. There are also tables in which the leaves are on hinges and hang below the table, fastened to it underneath until they are unfastened, pulled up and set in place. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually own a table like that, but I never knew that the extensions were called leaves. Continuing with Our Mutual Friend, I imagine that the sentence "Twemlow was pulled out to his utmost extent of twenty leaves" must suggest that at a very large dinner party, Mr. Twemlow must end up very far indeed from the hosts. Thanks for the definition. --Tachikoma 18:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Talking Name might be the term you're looking for. --82.207.236.114 21:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not a bad term, whether a coinage or ancient. Thanks. (Probably Talking name, if we have an article on it.) Geogre 02:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Policies and procedures

I have seen P&P's used as inviolable rules and regulations yet an authorative definition is difficult to find in regards to their purpose and function. Many definitions vaguely indicated that they are 'guidelines' or 'best practices' which suggest that they are not rigid but flexible depending on the particular situation and the intent of an organization.

Anybody have anything definitive on this?

Thanks for your assistance and your time.

Christopher

You might want to have a look at the Policy and Standing operating procedure articles.

My own experience in corporations (product design) is that results are what matter. In areas such as production, accounting, and human resources, I'm sure, the policies and procedures are more important. --Halcatalyst 22:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ayman Al Zwahiri

• Removed discussion. There was no pretence of a question, only soapboxing and chatting.

Please do not use Wikipedia as a soapbox or a chatroom. If you do not have a real question or a real answer, consider not posting your thought to the reference desk. Skittle 20:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

USA

I looked over United States Constitution but couldn't find an answer quickly: Does a state of the USA have the right to leave the union? What would be required for this, would a majority vote of the state's population be sufficient, or would there need to be a majority in all of the USA? In view of the recent polarization, has any non-bible-belt state seriously considered leaving the Union? I am convinced that for example California could well hold its own as a sovereign state, and would economically probably be better off than as a part of the US. dab (ᛏ) 18:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Does a state of the USA have the right to leave the union?" Per the American Civil War, no. As the victors, the North used what amounted to military judicial review to define statehood as a one-way-only process. See secession for more. — Lomn Talk 18:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course, it's also worth noting that the "recent polarization" is particularly hard to define. What makes the current red-state-blue-state hype objectively more divisive than, say, the divided attitudes towards the civil rights movement of the 60s? — Lomn Talk 19:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It might be possible, however, for federal government to allow a state to secede. I don't think there's anything in the constitution that would prohibit it, so probably it would just take an act of congress. --Ornil 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The Constitution doesn't say, either way. The North did not attack the South after succession in the US Civil War, but rather the South attacked the Union base at Fort Sumter, then the North counterattacked. So, the Civil War doesn't really answer the question. I suppose California, Texas, or many other states could survive on their own, but the real question is, would they be better off ? Having to form their own military, develop trade and political relationships with the 200 plus countries on the planet, and erect customs booths and develop import/export laws dealing with the remainder of the US would not be cheap. The "polarization" you speak of is more of a rich vs. poor/Republican vs. Democrat nature than a regional difference. California, for example, has had many poor Democrats as well as many rich Republicans (Ronald Reagan and Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example). So, California splitting off from the rest of the US wouldn't help much unless they evicted either the rich or poor to make it more homogeneous. StuRat 19:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

When I studied the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, I found that after the U.S. Civil War, Congress made it illegal for a state to secede - which is why, even if every single person in Hawaii voted to secede, they couldn't do it. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

that was what I wanted to know. So is this an amendment to the constitution, or just some law? This would mean that if some state (let's forget the "polarization" and speak hypothetically) wanted to leave, they could not unless they won a majority in the Congress? Does that also mean that if the Congress wanted to get rid of a state, and (just hypothetically, right) expelled it, that state could do nothing about it? It occurs to me that Montenegro gained independence from Serbia just by popular vote in Montenegro, the Serbs didn't get a say. Are you saying that in the US, the population would get no say at all, neither that of the leaving state nor that of the remaining ones, and that a simple Congress majority vote would be final and binding? dab (ᛏ) 19:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

See Texas v. White. The Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional for a state to secede once and for all in that ruling. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That ruling just says consent of the states is needed, which I take to mean Congress. Of course, both parties would have to come to an agreement about secession, such as what to do with US property currently located in the state (nuclear weapons being perhaps the trickiest part). I suspect that if everyone in a state voted to secede, there would be no problem in getting Congress to let them go. If nothing else, the state's residents could just stop paying federal income taxes. StuRat 19:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the ruling says that under the Articles of Confederation, union was perpetual and the current constitution merely makes that more perfect. The quote is: "The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration, or revocation, except through revolution, or through consent of the States." What consents of the states might mean is debatable but clearly if the Confederates didn't have it, then it cannot be as simple as one state saying so. Rmhermen 20:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, no SINGLE state can, but the majority of states could approve the secession of one state. There is no process set up for this as yet, but if a state voted to secede then Congress could set up a process to get the majority of the states approvals (after all the separation issues, like possession of nuclear weapons, were ironed out). StuRat 20:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also Congress is not as powerful as you seem to imply. They cannot even change the Constitution themselves. Rmhermen 20:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, if a secession did occur, I picture it being by default. That is, if a state chose to leave, the US would not be willing to go to war over it, so that would be that. Whether it was "technically illegal" wouldn't really matter. StuRat 20:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also note that no US state has anywhere near a majority who would vote to secede, including Hawaii. Some US possessions, like Puerto Rico, are closer, but still not there. StuRat 20:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

On Congress' power - the primary purpose of Congress is to change the Constitution by ammending it. The President (executive) can feebly veto an ammendment, big deal. The Supreme Court is the only one who can say "no" and strike down an ammendment as being unconstitutional. Yes, I watched Schoolhouse Rocks as a kid. --Kainaw ^(talk) 20:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the president can't veto proposed constitutional amendments -- it's strictly up to Congress and state legislatures... AnonMoos 01:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the primary purpose of Congress is to pass ordinary laws (and, of course, to get women for Democrats and bribes for Republicans). Constitutional Amendments are meant to be, and have been, somewhat rare. StuRat 20:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I wish that certain states would figure that out. Alabama, for instance, has over 770 constitutional amendments in the past 105 years, including things like authorising the legislature to promote the catfish industry (#492). In the constitution! Bah. — Lomn Talk 22:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

California had that problem several years ago, and they resolved it by rewriting the Constitution and getting popular approval for the rewrite, incorporating many of the amendments into regular provisions of the Constitution, streamlining it considerably. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

First, with regards to the feasibilty of secession, the people of a giant state like California would have no problem holding their own. "Having to form their own military, develop trade and political relationships with the 200 plus countries on the planet, and erect customs booths and develop import/export laws dealing with the remainder of the US" would simply not be an issue. In fact, to pick a nation from each continent, the population and economy of California is greater than that of Canada, Argentina, Greece, South Africa, Saudi Arabia (yes, even with its oil its economy still pales in comparison to California) and Australia. In fact, should it seceed, it would be an obvious candidate to be the ninth nation in the newly renamed "G-9".

But one need not look at a giant state like California. Even an average sized state with an average sized poplulation such as Pennsylvania or Michigan would still find itself among the richest nations on the planet, and would certainly be able to hold its own on the international scene.

Finally, with regards to the "legality" of secession, this may dissappoint many, but to the extent that the Constitution may forbid secession, the Constitution is irrelevant. To the extent that the Civil War may provide a precedent forbidding secession, it too is irrelevant. We no longer live in the 18th or 19th centuries, but the 21st, and sensibilities are simply different today.

Should a state like California hold a referendum on secession, for example, and should the people of California vote overwhelmingly to separate from the United States, and should the Government of California proceed on its course to sever all legal ties with the US, while maintaining a good faith approach to settling such sensitive issues as nuclear weaponry, etc...It is simply inconceivable that the Government of the United States would actually, in this day and age, use its military might and send troops into California, killing many Californian and US citizens in the process, to prevent the people of California from pursuing their democratic will to separate from the United States.

Fortunately, however, this is a pure intellectual, hypothetical debate, as there is no indication that any state is actually considering secession. Loomis51 01:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you said. However, I never said it would be impossible for a state to form all the institutions needed to govern itself independently, just that the cost of doing so would likely outweigh any benefit. For comparison, the European Union has many countries which, can, and have, act independently. However, by forming the EU they hope to operate more efficiently than they could as individual nations. In the case of an independent California, for example, if a trade embargo was placed on it by the remainder of the US (say for refusing to surrender it's nukes), then it would be in deep trouble. StuRat 14:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, I think that is the first time I have heard EU and efficiency in the same sentence. It may have been one of the intentions to have an efficient system, but they haven't managed to pull it off. That is not to detract from the other benefits of being a member of the EU, but just to point out that efficiency isn't one of them. Road Wizard 10:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What other benefits are there ? I suspect that these same benefits would also apply to California remaining a US state. StuRat 04:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Stu, that's why I stuck in the bit about "maintaining a good faith approach to settling such sensitive issues as nuclear weaponry etc...". Nukes would definitely be something HUGE to consider. I think we're pretty much in agreement on this one. Loomis51 10:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

culturally important sports

What would be a good criteria to determine what is the biggest or most culturally important sport of a given country? YOu can't go with "official" sport, because for example, for Canada the answer should be ice hockey, but the official sport is lacrosse. For Brazil the answer is clearly football (soccer). How could you analyze it for USA? Is American football bigger, or baseball, or basketball, for example?--Sonjaaa 18:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say baseball is the most culturally important US sport for historical reasons. It's older than American football or basketball, and has deeper cultural roots, such as songs ("Take me out to the all park"), sayings ("As American as baseball, apple pie, and Chevrolet"), and the very popular baseball metaphor for sex. While technically based on earlier English games, like rounders, a mythology has grown up around it's supposed invention by Abner Doubleday, as well. StuRat 19:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In the U.S. - nationwide - football is the most viewed sport. In other words, more people in the U.S. spend more time watching football than any other sport. But, that is a huge overview. In the southeast, Nascar claims to have more viewers. A client of mine told me that a survey in Vibe found that more black men watch basketball than football. When it comes down to it, football is a very television-friendly sport, so it is viewed more. It really doesn't have anything to do with the sport itself. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I could see you doing it a lot of different ways. Attendance at sporting events, television ratings, $ paid to the athletes, etc. Any of those would be good arguments supporting your view that one is bigger or more culturally significant than another. Nowimnthing 19:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Try Sports league attendances to start out with. Nowimnthing 19:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Even attendance has problems, though -- how do you reconcile baseball's 160-game season with football's 16-game season? How do you reconcile football stadiums being about double the seating capacity of baseball stadiums (about 70k to about 35k)? Of course, this also poses the question of whether such factors should be reconciled.

Ultimately, I find that the question ends up being a good topic for discussion and debate but a lousy one for a definitive answer. — Lomn Talk 22:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. "Cultural importance" is hard to determine. I think you're best off looking at something objective, like this survey, which asked respondents to name their favorite sport. According to most surveys I have seen, football, especially the NFL, ranks number one by far. Interestingly enough, African-American adults were the most likely to choose the NFL, probably contradicting the Vibe survey.

ESPN.COM recently had one of those "SportsNation" surveys asking what users' favorite pro sport was. In all 50 states, it was NFL number one and MLB number two with the NBA, NHL and NASCAR below. -- Mwalcoff 00:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say that, baseball has had more of an influence on American culture throughout the years. However, I would say that currently football is "gaining ground" as far as influencing the culture.

Name meaning

Anyone know the meaning and orgin of the name baljit. I believe it may be related to indian culture.--206.251.4.216 22:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You might do better on the language desk, but I'm sure it's Hindi, derived from the Sanskrit bala (pure) + ajita (unconquered). Hindi typically drops the -a endings. --Shantavira 09:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

June 10

Anarchy (?) Sign

What does this guy mean?

File:Temporary.jpeg

Does it mean anarchy?

And what are its roots (i.e. where does it come from)?

I have been told it comes from some kind a symbol that witches used in a certain curse. Do we have an article on it? Thanks. schyler 00:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually don't have the answer for your particular question, but, I must inform you, due to your use of the word "tolled" in this particular context, you are hereby disqualified from claiming English to be your native language. Loomis51 01:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe he was dictating. 82.131.186.145 14:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. Too many Ls. Thanks for telling me. Oh, and also, you don't have to be such an ASSHOLE about it. Its a simple mistake. By the way, you should have put a ":" between "must inform you" and "due to" rather than a "," and I think that's a lot worse than a typing error. Oh well.

I would still like someone to tell me the answer to my original question though. Thanks. schyler 01:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Think about it...is it just the extra L that's the problem or is there something else?

(You're right though, it's very uncharacteristic of me to act like an asshole and correct other people's spelling. I'm a bigger person than that. I just couldn't resist this time. It's your right to spell as you wish, and I shouldn't have been so harsh. My apologies.) Loomis51 02:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I don't think it was the correction of the spelling itself that was the problem, it was the way in which you did it. But I assume you were having a bad day. Skittle 20:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• See Anarchist symbolism. --Metropolitan90 02:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

To answer the original question, the A over the O is the symbol of anarchy and represents Anarchy superseding Order or "Anarchy is Order". See here. Grutness...wha? 03:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Then what sign may I be thinking of that witches used? schyler 13:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The pentagram is a similar shape, and its article mentions that it is used as a symbol of faith by wiccans. --Cadaeib (talk) 13:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The pentagram, a similar symbol

Thak you very much. That's exactly what I was thinking of. schyler 17:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC) I'm sure I remember the band "Crass" using this symbol for the "A" in their name and it did represent anarchy.Ah,the good old days of punk!(hotclaws**== 01:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC))

What is the pantone number for Wales Flag?

Wales's Flag contains a red dragon and a green land. What is the exact pantone number for that red and green color? - unsigned

Flags of the World doesn't note any pantone numbers. Possibly that's because Wales, unlike Scotland or the U.K., has no legislature interested in specifying them? FWIW, Wikipedia's Image:Flag_of_Wales_2.svg has a red that's 100/0/0 RGB and a green that's 0/47.5/0 RGB. You might also be interested in this page on pantone/RGB in flag depictions. - Nunh-huh 02:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If you like, I'll ask the question on the FOTW mailing list (which i'm a member of) -someone there might know, though I suspect it's not actually specified. The red of Y ddraig goch will be 186, the same as that for the Union Flag (the Union Jack). I must admit I more normally think of them in terms of CMYK values, and the welsh flag's green is very close to C-80%, M-40%, Y-100%, K-0%. Grutness...wha? 03:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I asked, I got a reply. "The official recommendations (which will be appearing in the new Edition of BR20) are for red PMS 186, and green PMS 354." Grutness...wha? 01:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC) (and thanks to Chris Southworth).

New category suggested in topic of Jesus Christ of Nazareth: Claims of Jesus

Recommend that we add claims of Jesus Christ, including: Jesus claimed to be the only way to God: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” (The Holy Bible, John 14:6, New American Standard Version) DKS 06:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)DKS 6/9/06

• Who is stopping you? If you have the relevant facts, then just start the article. Others will help you out.I edited your statements.Patchouli 09:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Who will be stopping him is CFD, I imagine. New categories pertaining to Jesus will generate enormous dissent, unless the terms are exceptionally NPOV. "Claims" will strike many, I think, as implying "but not true" or "lies" or "boasts." Also, I'm not sure what such a category would include. We don't have articles on "I am the way" or "the meek shall inherit the earth." We have links to Sermon on the mount and Wedding at Canaan. Geogre 11:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• There is already a section about what Jesus said on Wikiquote. I am not sure what a Category here would provide that a link to that page couldn't. Road Wizard 12:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Just curious, why is the word "Christ" crossed out twice in this question? Christ being derived from the Greek for "Messiah", it would seem that the questioner (if it is indeed the questioner who did the crossing out) is trying to make some gratuitous and innapropriate statement that Jesus was not the Messiah that Christians believe he is. If the crossing out was made by a third party, it's all the more innapropriate to edit someone else's question and cross out the word "Christ".

Just to make my point clearer, I am not a Christian and I do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. However I have enough respect for people of the Christian faith that I would never write "Christ" and then cross it out, or even worse, cross someone else's question concerning "Jesus Christ". I would simply and politely refer to the man as Jesus, and leave it at that. Many of us may disagree with who and what Jesus was, but to cross out the "Christ" aspect is simply inconsiderate of others' beliefs. Loomis51 19:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The crossing out was by Patchouli in this edit. Road Wizard 19:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Apparently this is true. How dare you, Patchouli, edit another's question in such a crass manner? As mentioned, personally, I don't believe Jesus was the Christ, but for those who believe Jesus was in fact Christ, it is their right, their "freedom of thought" as you put it on your userpage, and their writing should remain untouched. Believing that Jesus was Christ is in no way offensive to non-Christians. It's simply a belief. Editing their question is simply unacceptable and extremely rude. Please reconsider and reverse your edits. Loomis51 22:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• I suggest that until such time as Patchouli decides to reply, you may wish to assume good faith. The editor may not have intended an insult but could have been attempting to point out a perceived conflict with a naming convention. Road Wizard 23:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• I hadn't investigated, and I assumed that the crossing out was a crass insult as well. As it was by a 3rd party, it is even worse. Assuming good faith is good, but ignoring bad acts isn't. Let's try to respect each other. I am religious and a Christian, but I wouldn't be going about and crossing out "Buddha" and replacing it with "Siddhartha." If it were some expression of an opinion on naming convention, it would be fairly boorish to insert that opinion into a reference desk question. Geogre 03:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, I think we should draw a line under this issue and end this discussion here. This is hardly the appropriate forum to discuss the behaviour of an individual editor. To sum up the position, an editor has altered a question by another editor, which has been interpreted by some to be an insult; it has also been pointed out that the insult may not have been intentional, but instead a poorly explained action carried out in good faith. The correct action now, is for one person to point this out - in a polite manner - to the editor in question on their individual talk page. I would ask that other editors refrain from adding to this discussion here and also avoid any further comment on any resulting conversation at the user's talk page unless you have something meaningful to add. Thank you. Road Wizard 07:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

---

I crossed the word Christ and didn't hide that by I inserting I edited your statements above. First, the original question seemed as if that person was a skeptic. Second, I do believe in freedom of thought; however, this is project page; as such, being a little artful shouldn't offend anyone except those people can't wait to get offended in order to justify vituperation.

Next, I address the issue of opinion. That, Jesus was Jesus of Nazareth is a fact. On the other hand, that he was Christ is an opinion of Christians.

On a tangential issue, I deem it reasonable to speculate that Jesus of Nazareth had a secret agreement with Biblical authors to remain celibate and sacrifice his life and that they would in turn him into a literal God. What is the big deal? Isaac Newton who was a bachelor for 85 years and made tangible accomplishments that changed the course of humanity doesn't get divine titles. Yet a guy who was pulling people's legs as a living is now deified.

A good sign of maturity is seen in the following statement: "Whenever anyone has offended me, I try to raise my soul so high that the offense cannot reach it."Patchouli 18:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think that statement of yours is going to draw a lot of attention. It would probably be more appropriate for other editors to respond on your talk page rather than clutter this page further. Road Wizard 19:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the strikethroughs. --LarryMac 16:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Road Wizard, I appreciate your conscientious attitude and your many attempts to break up any possible "fight" between editors and to let "cool heads prevail." That's indeed a laudable goal. But I'm in no mood to "fight", and neither, I imagine, would be the particular editor in question. Indeed, there's little I enjoy more than "robust intellectual debate" (a phrase I borrowed from my good friend Jack). If it concerns you so terribly, I'll simply end it here and not contribute another word to this discussion. But on the other hand, we're Wikipedians, we're civil, and there might be a point that Patchouli would like to make that I would enjoy nothing more than to debate. In any case, this time, I'll respect your advice and end the debate here. I just hope that when next time comes around, the rhetoric will be lighter, the intellectual "goodwill" clearer, and a nice, clean, "robust intellectual debate" can be had. Until then, I still thank you for your efforts at doing your best to keep things civil here at Wiki. You have my full appreciation. Loomis51 23:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

If you wish to have an intellectual debate about the issue, I am not tyring to stop you. I am just pointing out this isn't the place for it. As the guidance says at the top of the page "If further debate regarding a particular answer is needed, please move the discussion to the appropriate talk page." Therefore, you can go ahead with the debate, but keep it to the individual talk pages. Road Wizard 23:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Help for linking spanish articles about feudalism

I dont talk very well English, and I try to link various articles or categorys about feudalism with technical names derived from old Castilian language

Please, somelse can help me how to link:

• The category Categoría:Derecho feudal thats means Feudal Right
• The article Malos usos señoriales thats can be translate as "Feudal abuses" or perhaps "Feudal bad customs" (I dont know but is related to Peasants' Revolt and Popular revolt in late medieval Europe causes)

Another question, without relation is about the use of a traditional tool in agriculture, in spanish is named Trillo, in English can be translated as Threshing-board or Threshing-sledge. Is it correct?

Thanks--Locutus Borg File:Logo-Borg.gif, Talk to me 10:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

"Resistance is fuedal." :-) StuRat 14:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

XD XD XD --Locutus Borg File:Logo-Borg.gif, Talk to me 05:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Fuedal? Perhaps Feudal? Loomis51 22:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

South Atlantic SAA Incident May/June 1982

I remembered reading somewhere about how a South African Airways airliner was nearly shot down by mistake by a British warship in 1982 over the South Atlantic while the plane was en-route from South Africa to somewhere in South America. The warship was on its way to the Falklands. The article said something about mistaking it with an Argentine Boeing 707 that was supposed to be shadowing the Task Force. I can’t find anything on the internet about this incident. Can anyone on this esteemed panel shed light on this incident?--Jcw69 10:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Haircut name?

What is the haircut worn by and called? 83.252.72.10 11:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Hairstyle and take your pick. --hydnjo talk 12:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The New York Times calls Reagan's do a "40s-style pompadour." - Nunh-huh 17:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• I want to know the name of Steve Ballmer's haircut. Isn't he going out of his way and bending over backwards to prove that he doesn't care about his looks while amassing billions of dollars. Hee-hawPatchouli 13:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• That doesn't appear to be a haircut, but rather male-pattern baldness. I may detect a slight comb over, however, if that's what you're referring to. Personally, I think bald looks better than whatever Donald Trump has living on his head. StuRat 14:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Donald Trump has got actual hair on top of his head. He pulled the hair on top of his hair to show its realness in a 2005 interview with Newsweek.Patchouli 17:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• These guys should use a minuscule portion of their assets to implant hair on their heads instead to deciding to take their money to their graves.Patchouli 15:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• "Liar, liar, your hair's on fire!" --Halcatalyst 17:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

BE(Mech) pass from S S Govt Engineering college

Question moved from Help Desk. Road Wizard 12:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to know whether 1990 pass out BE(Mech) from S S Govt Engineering College,Bhavnagar,Gujarat is eligible for AMIE membership and Chartered Engineership.

Thanks S K Joshi

You might find information you need in the AMIE article. I see that there is a link to the organization there; you will probably need to ask them. --Halcatalyst 17:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Policy on Philosophy of Science topics

First my background - I have a Masters degree in philosophy, with emphases on philosophy of science, ancient philosophy, and the history of ideas. I have been following a number of articles on topics that are traditionally tagged as pseudoscience in nature or discussion of philosophy or sociology of science such as Pathological skepticism and a more controversial article misnamed Objective validity of astrology. Much material that describes the viewpoints of people who hold these views. In the first topic, information on the views of the likes of well-known philosophers of science such as Paul Feyerabend and Thomas Kuhn is being deleted due to the claims that philosophers who hold these views are dubious (which seems to mean to some editors, they are not lab scientists publishing in Nature). In the second article, the topic is up for deletion because it references studies produced inside the astrological community - it reflects the beliefs of some astrologers that there may be a scientific basis to astrology. This article is being voted on for deletion by editors who think this information is not scientific so not appropriate for wikipedia. I think the article is valuable by showing attempts to prove or disprove with statistical studies - it reflects the state of affairs on a very popular topic, astrology. How can an encyclopedia be a forum for any anonymous person of any educational background to decide upon scientific validity. Shouldn't an encyclopedia be a place to survey writing and thoughts in a field? Not prove or disprove? Should 'just the facts' apply to editors who are believers as well as skeptics?

It seems that discussion of philosophy of science and information about people who believe in pseudoscientific (a loaded word itself, says some philosophers of science) is considered inappropriate for wikipedia. Topics that are in the domain of the humanities are being treated as though they are in the domain of natural sciences.

A crude uninformed censorship seems to have much support here. Can someone from humanities weigh in here, or does scientism hold the weight on wiki?

Very concerned,

Zeusnoos 13:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I only skimmed this comment but I second the sentiment. Glance through the page history and the comment history of Nostradamus and you'll see what I mean. Basically, the issue is that wikipedia editors with scientific training seem to think that "neutral point if view" means that objective facts take precendence over popular belief. For example, if there's an extensive literature on the occurrance of impossible things, communities discussing this, etc, the article subject Society for the Study of Contemporary Occurances of Impossible Things (SSCOIT) should contain, in the minds of these editors, essentially the single sentence "By definition impossible things cannot happen. For occurances of unlikely things, see Unlikely Occurances. For occurances of things previously thought impossible, see Occurances Previously Thought Impossible. The rest of this article focuses on the beliefs and writings of Society for the Study of Contemporary Occurances of Impossible Things (SSCOIT)." However, in fact, the rest of the article will contain a vitriolic "debunking" of SSCOIT's views. Why? Because to a scientist the "neutral" point of view is to share the fact that impossible things by definition can't and don't happen, that if they do they must not have been impossible, and if anyone writes otherwise the neutral point of view is to debunk their writings. This is just misinformation on the part of the editors: the neutral point of view is to share major parties views on (at least among serious parties) more or less an equal-opportunity basis. Thus for any article that reports views no serious scientist holds or even holds worthy of refutation (since these views do not get published in serious journals), a single prominent sentence making the view of scientists clear should suffice. It should be obvious that views that have no scholarly proponents do not generate much scholarly literature, except perhaps anthropological. In these cases the article is not a science article, but an anthropological/sociological one (despite claims by the parties quoted that their subject belongs to science.) 82.131.186.145 14:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that what is needed is to keep valid science isolated from psuedoscience, much as teaching Intelligent Design is fine when it's presented as what it is, an attempt by religion to make their preexisting beliefs seem scientific, but it's not fine when presented as if it's a valid scientific theory with a level of acceptance by the scientific community on par with the Theory of Evolution. I would be happy with titling psuedoscience articles as such, say Intelligent Design (psuedoscience), and then including a paragraph in the article on why it is so classified. StuRat 14:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In the case of astrology, some proponents suggest or assert that it is a science, while others do not but think it more as a religion. The problem then is whether or not the viewpoints and studies of those who think it can be validated by science (along with criticism of these studies) should be presented at all on WP. Some editors think the material, which reflects how astrology as a popular culture phenomenon is thought, should be removed altogether. Zeusnoos 15:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The first case looks to me like pretty bad case of either someone not knowing what NPOV really means, or not knowing much about the philosophy of science and who counts as a notable voice. I think if the additions were rewritten as prose, though, and the views were more directly attributed, it would be less of an issue. Having it be a list with a list of references at the bottom is easy to see as possibly being OR and not being well-attributed to whose views they are. --Fastfission 19:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

These articles have generated RFC's in the past (Request for Comment, or WP:RFC), and I wouldn't be surprised that they both need new ones. The good thing about Wikipedia is that there are so many editors that good information will be offered. The bad thing is that zealots will overwhelm the staid and reliable sources on "secret history" and occult topics. Wikipedia is a target of special interests, but most of the targeted articles have such avid watchers among the ranks of admins that the NPOV version prevails. In the case of pseudo-science and fringe subjects, there aren't many watchers with access to the protection buttons or rollback, I suspect. Get an RFC started, and then get an active admin to watchlist. The Bigfoot article, for example, was absolutely clobbered by believers a while back, and one in particular. We need more sane eyes on these articles. (Not me, I'm afraid: I'm not very good at conflict and whomping on zealots. I am an admin, but I'm pretty laid back.) Geogre 02:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

World Cup stadium

I've heard rumours that Albert Speer jr. (or his architecture firm) has built one of the stadiums for the World Cup 2006. Could someone confirm or deny this?

• This source say the AS&P firm built the Munich stadium. Road Wizard 14:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The source I just quoted may not be reliable. The article on Munich's Allianz Arena names Herzog & de Meuron as the architects. Road Wizard 14:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
    • [23] says AS&P did "site analysis, test designs, negotiations, coordination". So it looks like they were subcontractors, perhaps, or a failed bid? Shimgray | talk | 16:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You're obviously referring to the Olympic Stadium (Berlin), which is still the same it was in 1936. The article should have all the answers for you. --Dr. Zarkov 21:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure that is correct? I thought it was Albert Speer Sr. that was involved in the Berlin Stadium's original construction. Or do you have some information that says Albert Speer jr. was involved in some of the redevelopment work? Road Wizard 23:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

TV - longest running show?

What is the longest running show - à la Young and the Restless and The Simpsons - on TV? Jack Daw 15:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think there will be quite a few shows that claim that title (e.g. longest running show by number of episodes, longest running show by time from first episode to last). Do you want to limit your question to a particular country, or are you interested in the world wide position? The Sky at Night from the UK is claimed to be the "longest running show with the same presenter". Road Wizard 15:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In the U.S., Gunsmoke (20 years) is often mentioned as the longest running drama. If you count weekly news shows, Meet the Press has been on forever -- I think the first episode carried live footage of the birth of Christ. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 17:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Last of the Summer Wine is the longest running comedy series in the world, at 23 years, although shows like The Simpsons have more episodes (350+ to LotSW's 240). smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 17:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of programs like Friends, or Sex and the City, Days of our Lives, Simpsons, etc. There's gotta be a common name for "fiction" tv-shows :D Anyway, the longest running I've stumbled upon so far is actually The young and the restless, premiering in 1973. Jack Daw 17:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• If you're including soap operas, then Guiding Light is the longest running one on television, having a continuous television run since 1952. And it had started on radio in 1937. --Metropolitan90 18:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the UK, the longest running by a country mile is Coronation Street. Started in about 1961, still going. Grutness...wha? 01:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • It had a hiatus, but from first to last episode, I think Doctor Who ran longer. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Coro Street apparentlystarted in October 1960 - Dr. Who started in November 1963 (same day as JFK died, IIRC). Grutness...wha? 06:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Close. JFK died on 22 Nov. Dr Who started on 23 Nov. JackofOz 06:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

ACTUALLY (and this is aimed mainly at Jack, to bug the hell out of him lol), JFK was assassinated at 6:30pm GMT, November 22, 1963, while Dr. Who debuted at 5:15PM GMT, November 23, 1963. MEANING, that for those living in Omsk, USSR, at the time, (Omsk being located in the GMT+6 time zone), JFK was assassinated at 12:30am November 23, 1963, while Dr. Who debuted at 11:15pm, November 23, 1963. Therefore, if you were living in Omsk, (not that you would have received Dr. Who on TV), JFK's assassination and Dr. Who started on the same day. Is there a barnstar for being the most nitpicking, pain-in-the-ass editor on Wikipedia? (I'm beginning to realize I've been spending WAAAAAY too much time here)! Loomis51 22:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Loomis, mate, you win that barnstar hands down. (lol). OK, fair enough. As long as you warned your audience that you were using "day" in that general sense of any 24-hour period, rather than the more usual and specific sense of the 24-hour period midnight-to-midnight, you could get away with such a claim. In that sense only, Grutness and you are both quite right, these events did occur "on the same day". I'm not sure that's what Grutness had in mind, because he didn't qualify his statement in that way - but he might have. However, the date of an event is determined by reference to the time at which it occurred, at the place in which it occurred. What date it might have been somewhere else (eg. Omsk) at that moment in time is irrelevant. These events definitely happened on different dates in the calendar.  :--) JackofOz 09:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course you're right, Jack. No need to go into the details. Dr. Who, by all reasonable accounts did not debut on the same day as JFK's death, but the next day. Just having a bit of fun there. I hope I wasn't breaking yet another Wiki rule I'm not aware of, as I seem to be stumbling upon all sorts of new Wiki rules that I've seem to be breaking on almost a daily basis. Let's see: don't be a nitpicking pain-in-the-ass. Phew, it's still red. But knowing the people here, I'm willing to bet that soon enough it will be blue! Take care, Jack. Loomis51 22:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Inge Bandekow

Hi. I have been reading about Hitler and his peers on Wiki, but one person I am curious about, doesn't even have a red-link on her name. I would love it if someone would write a page on "Inge Bandekow" who married Harald Quandt, the surviving son of the Goebbels family. Thanks!! --71.8.83.75 16:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Harald Quandt was a step-son, not a son, of Joseph Goebbels. His wife Inge and their children are mentioned in his article. now she has a red link; if anyone knows enough, they'll write it. - Nunh-huh 16:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not the place to ask for new articles. You can search for "Inge Bandekow" and a screen will come up inviting you to strart the new article. If you don't want to, you will find an opportunity there to request the article. That's how it's done. :-) --Halcatalyst 17:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's a highly complex mechanism for requesting articles, involving navigting through a series of pages, and I'm not terribly certain that many requested pages are ever written. If the questioner can figure out which of the hundreds of subpages to request it on, I suppose asking there might slightly increase the chances of having an article on the subject... :) The Reference Desk is certainly the place to ask for information; we just don'tt seem to have enough to offer to make an article out of. - Nunh-huh 17:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to admit I never tried to request an article using that method. Are there better ways? --Halcatalyst 19:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to hear if anyone had had any recent requests actually honored from those pages. They are so huge I think any requests are pretty much lost. I think making red links to point to the requested subject, or asking for information here, or on the talk page of related articles, is probably a more efficient way. Red links will show up in Wikipedia:Most wanted articles if there are enough of them<G>. - Nunh-huh 20:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

To expand Nunh-huh's point, the red links will be seen by those with an interest in the subject. Editors are much more likely to write a red linked article on a related subject than someone with no interest churning through a very long list. They are also more likely to have access to the source material. Road Wizard 01:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I have attempted to solve the "Requested Articles" boondoggle. I created a category called Red links. If you create a list of redlinks in your user talk space and apply that tag, the collection will show up in the category. I think that makes things easier to find by people who like to research and write. Additionally, one can name the page in such a way as to indicate the subject, so then folks with interests in the area can find it. I keep meaning to announce this somewhere where people will actually see it, but that brings up yet another different longtime problem. Geogre 13:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What tag? I have tried to look for a category called "Red links", but I can't find it. Can you provide a link? Thanks. Road Wizard 13:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. The proper link is Category:Red list. A hazard of typing early in the day is faulty memory. I still think it's a good idea. Geogre 15:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I can not find any other way on Wiki to thank you guys!!! :) :) Thanks for your patience, and helping me suggest/create a red link. You are all awesome. --71.8.83.75 04:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Where can I find this video?

Does anyone know where I could find a video of yesterday's press conference between President George W. Bush and Prime Minster Rasmussen of Denmark? --Shadarian 17:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Currently, http://www.whitehouse.gov/ has the transcript and pictures. Based on my experience, the webcast usually shows up thereon in less than 24 hours just the al-Zarqawi speech.Patchouli 20:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

metal and big beat genre

there is a genre (or a sub-genre) of metal that is metal with big beat???

metal recorder

the previous question reminded me that I posted this about a week ago, no real answer (someone thought I might have a tin whistle). I wouldn't like to just change the article, which is well-referenced, and the fact I have a metal recorder isn't much of a reference. I'd like to find a reference on the internet to other metal recorders so that, citing them, I can change the article (Recorder). Thank you. 87.97.8.244 18:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

How interesting. What kind of metal is it made of? Is it a rolled tube, as in tin whistles, or moulded like a flute? Is the mouthpiece metal? I've never heard of such a thing, and I would normally imagine the sound quality to be rather poor, but I'd love to hear more. I'll have a look, but it sounds like you've already done most of what I would do to look. Skittle 20:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, from Saunders Recorders. KOBLICZEK There have been also brilliant recorders for buskers and folk groups. The "Silberton" also sold as "Gruber System" is of all heavily silver plated brass, descant, and sopranino, while the treble has a wooden body and keys for F/F#. These instruments have a wide parallel bore and something of the sound of a flute. The unusual moveable windway enables one to vary the voicing and produce husky "ethnic" effects, which "mic up" well. I am not able to obtain these to order. The best source these days is probably through the internet. Key your rquirements into Google and see what you can find. The "Concerto" had a wide bore and thin wall giving it a robust but not coarse tone well liked by folk musicians... Silberton: Cylindrical Metal Recorders, occasionally available second-hand

Also, on the same site "HOPF: These are, unfortunately, no longer available. The renaissance models are available from Kobliczek. Secondhand "Meister" trebles are well worth considering, they have an unusally small stretch for the right hand. See Kobliczek for the metal recorders."

Hope this helps. Skittle 20:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Vauxhall Advert song

What is the name of the song from the new Vauxhall advert shown in the UK? ITs the one with the car 'surfing' or something through the water. Its kinda.. folky or something. Dunno but its kinda catchy. Thanks.

• I think this source gives the answer. They say it is a song by Lonnie Donegan called Rock Island Line. Road Wizard 01:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Sci-fi short story, self-monitoring machine

I'm looking for a sci-fi short story, which I remember being mentioned somewhere on WP. The story was based around the concept of a machine with the sole purpose of monitoring its own actions: it was like a stream of conciousness for the machine. Something like "Switched on. Recorded being switched on. Made a record of recording having been switched on" etc. Or something like that. I also think the machine/story had a name derived from Latin/Greek, like auto-something. Thanks! Sum0 21:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it just go on recording the recordings of having been switched on? What could possibly be the use of such a thing? --Username132 (talk) 14:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think a lot of people have looked at a computer and thought "What could possibly be the use of such a thing?". Notinasnaid 15:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

June 11

Person who said this one thing and a term

quote

I remember reading this quote one one time and it goes something to the tune of:

"Isn't it amazing how music can bring out our deepest emotions: hapiness, sadness, fear, anger, without even saying a word?"

I just can't remember who it was. I am almost positive it was a woman, but it could also be a man. I don't know. Does anybody recognize this?

term

I was playing a piece of music and it just made me feel sad (hence the quote) and I wanted to play it like I was sad, and expressing my feelings with it. What is this called? I remember doing something like this in theatre(er?) that was called something like emotional recall where you think of something sad and put that into the part your doing. But what is it applied to my situation? Yhanks. schyler 00:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What Said said about Indo-European

Edward Said said something some years ago about the unreality (or something) of the idea of the Indo-European, or Indo-Aryan, or Aryan, language group. At least, so say a lot of people. It seems he allegedly said something about not trusting a German who uses the words "Aryan" and "Semitic" in the same sentence.

A great deal of Googling of what seemed to be promising combinations gave me an exposure to a colossal load of offensive garbage by lovers and haters of ES, but nothing useful. (Though there was actually one note by some heretic who said he'd like to see the actual passage before commenting on it.)

Please, can anyone point me to the actual passage in context?

I don't know what Said said (nor do I particularly care that much, since he was not a linguist, and not particularly qualified to comment on technical linguistic matters) -- but the reality of the Indo-European and Semitic language groups is established beyond question in scientific linguistics. (However, the idea of Indo-European and Semitic "races"[sic] is of course nonsense.) The German word for "Indo-European" is "Indogermanisch". In linguistic terminology, the word Indo-Aryan actually means the group which encompasses Indian languages (those related to Sanskrit) and Iranian languages. (I have no idea what "Indo-Aryan" means to Edward Said and racists, nor do I want to know.) AnonMoos 15:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Must say, I agree with every word except as to caring about it. Not that I'd tell anyone else whether to care; but I'm curious, and not just idly, whether such a major politico-scholastic figure, at least as perceived in the media, came up with something so absolutely stupid -- not ignorant, he wasn't that, but deliberately maliciously racist stupid -- as this appears to be. Sorry, forgot to sign the previous one -- Dandrake 16:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Question about reckoning one's age in China

I read or heard once, somewhere, that it was customary in China to say that a newborn baby is one year old, and to increment the age at the start of the lunar new year (instead of on the person's birthday). Is this true? And if it is true, can anyone help me find a quotable source for it? I've mentioned this point in one of the footnotes of the article United States v. Wong Kim Ark, but I would really like to include a citation if possible. Richwales 05:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know about China, but the custom of incrementing ones age at the start of the year instead of having individual birthdays was used in Japan until at least the last century (I am unsure whether some Japanese still continue this practice). My source for the Japanese usage is an anime called Sakura Wars, which is set in 1920s Tokyo. The explanation of the custom came about in an episode where a character from Europe grew upset that no one was interested in celebrating her birthday. I will keep an eye out for a Chinese source though. Road Wizard 10:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

dragonwings the grade school reading book is my source for the same understanding, and concerned chinese in san francisco around the turn of the century earthquake (1902? 1903? 1904? something like that). the protagonist was put in the wrong grade as a result. 82.131.186.141 10:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC).

See East Asian age reckoning. No citation is provided in the article though. --Kusunose 13:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I have now added sources for both Chinese and Japanese systems to the external links section of the page Kusunose mentioned. Road Wizard 14:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Mittal Steel Company vs Arcelor

On what legal basis can Arcelor refuse selling itself to Mittal Steel Company, the highest bidder? Is there even an economic justification, or is it pure Indophobia? deeptrivia (talk) 12:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It´s not pure Indophobia (at least I hope it´s not). It´s a mainly political issue. "They" defend that the whole sector is vital for France and therefore should be in french hands, by extrapolation European. This excuse is also used in America with the harbours. It is the same excuse everywhere. It´s called protectionism and exists in every country of this planet. We like that foreigners invest their money in our country, but as soon some as*hole shouts: "This (whatever) should be in our national hands!" everybody just turns stupid. It is supported by lying politicians because the "dumb masses of voters" will vote on them because of these double-standart measures. And still they say that democracy is always the best answer for everything. It´s plain case of not doing what we preach to everyone. Flamarande 12:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, protectionism of French companies and companies involving French interests is a thorny issue at the moment. The French government has been receiving some criticism lately for stalling in the process of liberalising their takeover rules, as part of a wider EU initiative. The accusations stem from the fact that French companies have been taking over firms in other EU countries like the UK since their rules were liberalised, but companies in other countries can't take over French ones. [24] Road Wizard 12:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, it´s not only the frogies! Everybody does it. The French are only a bit more...obvious? Flamarande 12:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying it is just the French, but as you mentioned the reason for the refusal is because of French interests, I thought I would provide the editor with an example where the French situation is discussed. As the article says, in that example the French can be accused of double standards, but they haven't broken any laws. Road Wizard 13:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Indophobia is situated between Indonesia and Montenegro. The ravenous islands grow pure scented flowers of green taxes. Yous should have been there in the summer when tigers and goats perform their rituals of love and the shepherds go cutting boughs to bbq them. --DLL 19:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Lyudmilla Pavlichenko

"The recruiter initally rebuked her, suggested a nurse specialization instead, but after being presented her marksmanship certificate, assigned her to the Red Army's 25th Infantry Division". Ridicolous. In the Red Army (and in the other communist Army) woman were conscripted. Vess

• Where are you quoting from? I can't find an article called Lyudmilla Pavlichenko. Road Wizard 13:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Lyudmila Pavlichenko - The quoter put in two 'l's. I found it by putting a section of the quote into google and in quotes. --Username132 (talk) 14:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything in that sentence that suggests she wasn't conscripted. Vess, if you think something needs correcting (and there's plenty that needs correcting) please go right ahead and edit it. If you're uncertain, leave a note on that article's discussion page. --Shantavira 15:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, women were conscripted, but they weren't always allowed to be in combat roles, and that seems to be what the article is going on about. It does sound like folklore, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were false, but not because the Soviet armies were actually equal opportunity in conscription. Geogre 15:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

"Getting Over" People

When trying to "get over" someone after a relationship, the best advice I can come up with involves focusing on the person's flaws and/or finding someone to replace them. Is there any other/better advice to quicken the process? --Username132 (talk) 14:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Try not to think about them. Think about how much better you are off (presumably). Focus on new opportunities and goals. Overcome new barriers and enjoy life. :) --Proficient 14:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• A sexual relationship is not the most important fact in life. Other facts include taxes, insurance, knowledge, security and peace, and more.Patchouli 15:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

And try to remain on friendly terms with them. They might appreciate having a friend they can turn to when their next relationship ends.--Shantavira 15:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Practically, the best suggestions I can offer are 1) write a letter stating your complaints, but do not send it (very important), 2) Do what you can to reduce the lost Other to the status of just any other person, as the pain of rejection is comprised both of loss and of insult ('you say that I am less worthy than someone else; I love you, so I value your opinion, so I am, indeed, worthless'), and the sooner the Other becomes "just some person with an opinion," the sooner one element of the pain is removed, 3) Devalue the lost things (affection, sex, intimacy) by reminding yourself that you are no different today from yesterday, that your life may be less rich, but it is not actually impaired. Ultimately, nothing will take the sting away, but I recommend avoiding at all cost regret. Regret will do no good to you, to the beloved, or your peace, and it will cheapen the good by alloying it with pain. Geogre 15:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

don't focus on their faults. I think you're trying to get over a man, so this might be unfamiliar to you, but the best way is porn. search until you find a type you find real hot, hotter than your ex at least.

Don't convince yourself they're evil, or you're better than them or put them down, all I can say, is keep on good terms with everyones, spend some time with freinds if you need support, and keep occupied. Also I wouldn't find someone to replace them straight away, because then you get those clingy "on the bounce" relationships where there only in it because they're getting over some one, and nobody likes them.

Alfred Lord Tennyson: 'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Philc _T^E_C^I 22:36, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that from Romeo and Juliet? Or was only the sentiment there? Skittle 10:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Yeah, just the sentiment. I think I always expect them to say it, but they never do.... Skittle 10:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a Buddhist text that recommends thinking of the beloved as a bag of offal. A recent translation expresses it rather forcefully. "You have plenty of filth of your own. Satisfy yourself with that! Glutton for crap! Forget her, that other pouch of filth!" (Bodhicharyavatara 8.53) Hope this helps. --Shantavira 07:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I would advise you to put her out of your mind, avoid all contact with her, and more or less pretend she does not exist.

The N.K. Fairbank Company

What is the value of a little catalog put out by the N.K. Fairbank Company in 1899? It deals with soap wrappers. Coolthings 15:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably very little, but have you tried checking the price of similar articles on eBay? --Shantavira 15:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Older Civilization in Recorded History

Based on recorded history, is the Chinese civilization older than the Mesopotamian and Persian civilizations?Patchouli 16:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Doing a quick Google search of wikipedia for the term "oldest civilization" brings up an interesting discussion at User talk:Mimiian. It appears to be a contentious issue. Road Wizard 16:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably the Mesopotamians slightly edged all the others when it came to the development of writing. Otherwise, the question might be hard to define in a way tha would admit of an exact answer. AnonMoos 15:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Linus Yale, Sr.

Was he the one that invented the Yale lock?

• I think you just tried to blank your question as you had already found the answer. Unfortunately, you also inadvertently blanked most of the other questions on this page at the same time. Please try to be a little more careful in future. In case you haven't found your answer, please see Pin tumbler lock. Road Wizard 16:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Mabogo/Mobogo the killer/bull

Has anyone any information concerning pictures/card games no longer produced un the title of Mabogo/Mobogo???? Thanks

June 12

Music

Is there a word meaning a group of musical works? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.20.208.10 (talk • contribs) 18:10, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

First that comes to mind is a medley, but without further explanation as to what you want, it's kind of hard. schyler 02:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean oeuvre? Geogre 03:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Or album? Or opera? Grutness...wha? 06:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Suite was what came to mind for me. Then you have more specific terms like song cycle. — Haeleth Talk 20:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

.. and not just song cycles (like Schubert's); there is orchestral and more: Smetana, Má Vlast, and of course Herr Wagner's Ring? --Seejyb 21:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Is a song cycle a single entity, or a group of entities? Is each song more like the movement of a symphony than a musical work in its own right? What would a group of song cycles be called?
• People also talk about performing or recording the complete "cycle" of Beethoven/Mahler/whoever's symphonies, but this is a misnomer as they are discrete works and were not conceived as forming a larger group (in contrast with Smetana, Schubert/Schumann lieder cycles etc). "Set" might be a better term.
• 10 marks for ingenuity to Grutness for "opera", which is the plural of "opus" (work). "Opera" now mainly refers to a particular genre of music/drama, and in that sense it has become a singular word, which is why it can be pluralised to "operas" without any objection from purists. A composer who referred to "my opera" would not be talking about his/her collected works, but to a specific work, such as La Boheme. JackofOz 02:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I rejected "opera" as requiring an object. It is not the plural of "opus." (Still some Latin left in my head, though most of it leaked out.) Instead, it's Italian. Geogre 03:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Our article suggests it started out as the Italian plural of the Latin word opus. JackofOz 03:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Opera is the Latin plural of the Latin word opus. It is not an Italian plural. It is not clear how an Italian plural of the Latin word opus would be formed, as the rules of the Italian grammar operate on the gender, which in Italian is masculine or feminine, while opus is neuter, and further depend on which vowel (-a, -à, -e, -è, -o) is the last letter, while opus does not end on a vowel. In Italian, the word opera is either singular, and then just means "work" (of art etc.), or specifically "opera" (people singing and then dying theatrically), or it is possibly plural, but then it is a Latin word injected into the midst of an Italian discourse. --Lambiam^Talk 11:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I've never seen a neuter Latin noun form a plural with an interposed -er. Geogre 11:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

For opus see, e.g., [25]. There is also the neuter noun genus with plural genera. Not a noun but an adjective, but also getting -er- in other cases than the nominative or accusative singular, is vetus (old), which is also the neuter form, with neuter plural vetera. --Lambiam^Talk 12:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

More general groupings could be 'body', 'genre', 'style' or 'catalog'. -LambaJan 03:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Napoleon Bonaparte

Whould it be possible for someone today to rule an empire as large as Napoleon Bonapartes?

Thanks -anon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.193.39.27 (talk • contribs) 18:34, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the current rulers of China rule an empire larger both population and size.

Until 15 years ago the soviet rulers also ruled a vest ad diverse empire. They used methods very similar to Napoleon- that is ruling the conquered territories as nominally independent puppet states. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.72 (talk • contribs) 18:58, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. A empire is a region ruled by (usually but not always) an empress or emperor. So you could say that lots of countries now are bigger than Napoleon's empire. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.20.208.10 (talk • contribs) 18:52, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

It is far easier to rule a large empire now. In Napoleon's time, you didn't have instant communications with every part of your empire 24-hours a day. In my opinion, the new empires are not countries. They are businesses, such as the Wal-Mart empire. Calculate the land and people controlled by Wal-Mart and it is a viable country all its own. --Kainaw ^(talk) 13:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible? Yes, certainly. Russia, Canada, the United States and the People's Republic of China are all larger than Napoleon's empire in sheer size. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Brazil, and Indonesia (in addition to the US, Russia and the PRC, above, but not Canada) control larger populations than Napoleon did. However, the only empire still in existence today is the Empire of Japan, which is about the same in population as Napoleon's empire but much smaller in land area. —Cuiviénen 21:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't know about Japan. Its head of state may be an emperor, but Japan itself (herself?) if not considered an empire in any sense. It does not have any such title in its official name and it makes no claim to control of territories outside its borders (apart from disputed possessions such as the Kurile islands). JackofOz 23:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There used to be an empire of Japan. However, they lost it all in WWII. --mboverload@ 05:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The deal with Japan - Japan is technically an empire. However, the emperor (if there is one) does not assume as much power. It did lose all of its gains from WWII, but no more.

Genghis Khan's empire was the largest in human history, but it didn't last long. EamonnPKeane 14:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Info on the Society for the Domination of Women

I heard about the Society for the Domination of Women on an old show from the late 50's. He was calling it something that sounded like SODA or SODAWO. I tried googling it but found nothing. Any info or place to look would be awesome! Thanks -Katrina —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.205.81.18 (talk • contribs) 19:40, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

It sounds to me like it would have been a joke, and even if it wasn't a joke, such an organization would probably have been rather ephemeral. But you can look at Loving Female Authority and Matriarchy... AnonMoos 15:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, /soda probablly was a joke. However in the theirs was an organization called the womans party it took fairly radical feminist positions (at least for the time period) and was sometimes fairly or unfairly labeled as antiman. Perhaps "soda" is spoof on them.

The very extreme feminist organisation was Valerie Solanas' Society for Cutting Up Men (SCUM). We also have an article on the SCUM Manifesto which includes a link to an online copy.-gadfium 06:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

No, its not a feminist org. but quite the opposite. He was saying he believed and the Society promoted, that women shouldn't work, should stay home, should stay out of politics, shouldn't be allowed to vote, shouldn't go to college, etc. He was very serious about it. BaptistKitty 22:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Katrina

I believe I can give you some more information: The old show you probably saw this on was Groucho Marx's "You Bet Your Life." One guest on the show was Greg Morton, the president and founder of The Society for the Domination of Women (SODOWO). He believed women should lose their right to vote, have higher entrance requirements for college, and pay a dowry to their husbands.

Salaries of justices of the SCOTUS

The POTUS makes $400,000, but what do the justices make? Do they have other sources of income? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ronbarton (talk • contribs) 21:31, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

According to the articles Chief Justice of the United States and Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, the Chief Justice earns $208,100 per annum and the Associate Justices slightly less: $199,200. --Canley 05:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Arthur C. Clarke Book

Sorry...I didn't get my answer yet? I want to know the names of all 3 books of Arthur c. clarkes trilogy "The Blue Planet Triology" I have read one. "The Reefs of Taprobane"

But i couldn't find any of these books in his book index in wikipedia. So anyone wh knows them, plz update the article asap.

Sithara from Sri Lanka. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.247.209.130 (talk • contribs) 05:52, June 12, 2006 (UTC)

The Coast of Coral (vol. 1), The Reefs of Taprobane (vol. 2), and The Treasure of the Great Reef (vol. 3). —Wayward ^Talk 13:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, all three of those are listed clearly in the article Arthur C. Clarke. What a strange place for an encyclopedia to keep such information. --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, only one of the volumes was listed in the article. I added the other two after I posted them here :) —Wayward ^Talk 15:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

IS the surname FRESE related to the Double Decker Bus

IS the surname FRESE related to the design, development, invention, or "in any way" to the Double Decker Bus?

First name may (or not) be Joseph, Henry, or William.

This name is of German decent around Hamburg, Germany. William Frese came to the United States in the late 1800's. Lived in Virginia.

His son was Joseph Henry Frese Sr., born in America (Virginia, died 1935 in Oakland, CA). ... I was told this man was associated with inventing the Double Decker Bus. Perhaps the design or even "re-design" area. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Minkiee (talk • contribs) 09:50, June 12, 2006 (UTC)

Depending on the exact age of the gentleman, I suspect he was not the inventor of the original double-decker bus, but it is possible that he created one of the many redesigns. One of the references in our Double-decker bus article quotes a former British Prime Minister, William Ewart Gladstone, as saying "Yes, gentlemen, the way to see London is from the top of a 'bus—from the top of a 'bus, gentlemen." As Mr Gladstone died in 1898, this suggests that at least one form of double-decker bus was well established before that time. Road Wizard 17:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The word "bus" is a clipping of "omnibus," and so finding exact references is complicated. In 1898, and certainly earlier, the omnibus was not going to be, of course, an internal combustion vehicle, so Gladstone was probably not referring to what the questioner is interested in. Geogre 17:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Simple two-deck horse-drawn buses were in London as early as the 1860s [26] with modern-ish designs by the 1870s [27]. The modern double-decker is essentially just the old one without the horses, so it's not that far off. Shimgray | talk | 16:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am asking here because I have had lots of trouble finding anyone's "NAME" connected with ANY of the designs, re-designs or the inventing of the double decker bus. Do you know "WHO" holds the patent for it? - and/or - WHO is credited for 'inventing' it??? Thanks!

General Kim Williams

Who was General Kim Williams?

All I know is that he was a scion of the House of Williams of North Wales, and was alive prior to 1800 possibly a lot earlier. He may have resided in Southern Ireland

Colinjr 17:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

De Berry Huguenot

Who were the De Berry brothers? And when did they arrive in England/Wales/Ireland?

They were Huguenot refugees.

Colinjr 17:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

If you type in De Berry on the search bar to the left, you will get quite a few Wikipedia articles about people with this name. Otherwise, we'd have to know more about the brothers (which is what you don't know, I guess).

I checked a French name list but couldn't find De Berry. My ancestors were Huguenot and their names are there. You could also search for "de berry" huguenot on Google or Yahoo or another and you'll find lots of information. --Halcatalyst 02:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Could it be a mis-hearing/mis-spelling of Du Barry? This someimes happens with "foreign" names.(hotclaws**== 12:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

Please identify this science-fiction short story

When I was a child I read a short story that has affected me greatly. I'd like to reread the story now that I'm an adult, but can't locate it. Here's a plot synopsis...

The planet has been entirely overrun by humans. The society measure it's progress in kilograms of brain mass, and everyone lives in very dense cities. Human waste is shipped out to sea, and kelp is harvested to eat. As a hobby, a man keeps alive the last remaining patch of grass, a bird or other small animal, maybe a lizard or something, in his apartment. One day he receives a notice form the government that his building will be torn down to construct an even larger housing complex, and he is order to vacate. He can't take his pets with him, so he destroys everything and then commits suicide.

I read this story about 25 years ago, but I think it was in an anthology of science-fiction short stories from the mid-1960s. I thought it was by Heinlein, but after searching through many of his works, I'm not so sure anymore.

Thanks for your help, Andy 216.98.254.8 19:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's by Isaac Asimov -- if memory serves, it was one of a pair of stories dealing with the "last living non-human thing", one glorifying and the other lamenting the concept. However, I don't recall the titles. — Lomn Talk 19:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm Asimov. Political Mind 20:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It actually sounds rather un-Asimov-like to me, and I've read many (but not all) of his short stories. But if others confirm, disregard this. :-) zafiroblue05 | Talk 00:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I think maybe I found it: 2430 AD? Didn't get a very good review at this website, though. --vibo56 ^talk 19:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks much for everyone's help! I'll check out the Asimov stories... Andy216.98.255.107

Help!!!

My Grandfather was in World War 2 but his name is not in the world war 2 veterans list. Why is that??? His name is Raymond J. Bastian!

Not listed in what list? What country, even? Rmhermen 23:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There is an article List of World War II veterans. The people listed all have a Wikipedia article and are notable for other reasons than being a veteran. --Lambiam^Talk 11:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but there were 16 million soldiers and sailors involved in WWII just in the U.S. I don't think we can put up a list that big on here. If he was U.S., there is a registry here: [[28]] where you can add his name if he isn't there already. Nowimnthing 17:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

history

I want to know more about Beringia.

Well, we don't always get what we want. schyler 23:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Generals from wwII

Are their any WWII Generals from any nation who still live?

So far, I've only found one: Robert Moncel was promoted to brigadier general in the Canadian armed forces in 1944. Still looking, though. —Zero Gravitas 05:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Unlikely. Officers who held rank above brigadier-general would invariably have been in their forties and would, of course, now be exceptionally old. Nevertheless, there are/were numerous officers who became generals, even field marshals, after the war. Some of the last surviving I've managed to locate include Field Marshal Waldemar Levy Cardoso (according to the article, served as a lieuttenant-colonel during WWII), Brigadier-General Robert E. Galer (died in June 2005), Brigadie James "Speedy" Hill (died in March Telegraph 2006, Guardian 2004), and Brigadier John Profumo (died in January). SoLando (Talk) 13:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

nineteenth century latin america

why would latin political stablility be such a challenge to latin leaders in the nineteeth century ?

See colonialism or the course materials you've probably been asked to read. Geogre 03:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

education in the US

What is the percentage of people in the US who have a BA or higher? What is the percentage of people in their mid to late 20's who have a BA or higher?

For information up to 2004, see NCES tables. For males and females age 25+, 27.7% had a bachelor's degree or higher. For males and females between 25 and 29, 28.7% had a bachelor's degree or higher. Ziggurat 02:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the person who asked the question but nice answer! It's a very nice resource, unfortunately the tables seem to go from "high school completion or higher" to "Bachelor's degree or higher". What do you suppose the percentages look like for "any college credit", 1 year of college credit, and associate's equiv. (2 years). Demographic surveys (marketing) frequently supply "some college". What percentage do you suppose has this but less than a college degree in America? (perhaps including currently enrolled students...) 87.97.8.197 19:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Manatory retirement age

What is the mandatory retirement age for British military officers?

Hitler's biological children

Are their any known or suspected biological children of Adolf Hitler?

No. - Nunh-huh 23:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

But what if their were, could they still be his? VdSV9•♫ 01:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually there was an utterly fascinating student film filmed in a documentary style done on what would happen if they cloned Hitler. They did it to see if genetics would make him turn into the same person. He didn't. However, when he and other people found out he was "forced" by society to start looking like Hitler. Extremely thought provoking, something you rarely see in the movies. --mboverload@ 05:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

And let´s not forget David Gardner and his story about 'The Last of the Hitlers' [29] --nodutschke 14:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

See The Boys From Brazil. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That rather reminds me of Robert Harris' book Archangel, which theorises about a possible child of Joseph Stalin.

There is also a fictional Australian movie "Children of the Revolution" about a son of Joseph Stalin. Andjam 09:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hitler apparently never had sex with Eva Braun (or anyone) because he saw himself as genetically inferior (short, brown eyes, black hair) to the tall, blond, blue-eyed Aryan race he was building and so he didn't want to perpetuate his genes. Also he only had one ball, so it probably hurt a lot. EamonnPKeane 14:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Condom use

When did condom use become regular?

See the history section on the condoms article. Also: please sign your comments by adding four tildes (~~~~) to the end of each one. Emmett5 23:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

June 13

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Most movies

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

World's most prolific actor?

Anybody know what actor or actress has appeared in the greatest number of movies?

• Jackie, in the role of Leo the Lion.--Pharos 00:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Could you clarify the following?

-Are you only concerned about North American/Europeans Films?

-Do you consider a very small role, or a voice role as an "appearance"?

-What exactly do you mean by "movie"? (e.g. does a made-for-TV movie count?

--CE

• heh. I like Pharos's suggestion. As far as humans go (other than mentioning the man with the gong in the J Arthur Rank movies, that is), it will almost certainly be someone from the silent movie era, since they were churned out at a great rate of knots. It was not unusual for silent movie stars to appear in a dozen movies per year. Grutness...wha? 01:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Not the answer but; the Gunness book of records says that John Wayne is the actor with the greatest number of lead roles: 142 of 153 films. MeltBanana 02:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Christopher Lee would have to be up there. He has appeared in 227 films, and is still going strong. JackofOz 02:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure even they could match John Wayne or Christopher Lee, but pornographic 'actors' and 'actresses' appear in shockingly high numbers of "films" (especially if you count every cut of a set of scenes as a film). A pornographic actress may have a career of 18 months and appear in 100 filmic products. I suppose this is, yet again, one of those examples of why it pays to specify. Further, though, and more seriously, Bollywood outpaces Hollywood in number of films and yet has a smaller set (over time) of lead players, so I should imagine that some of the major stars of Indian cinema would pass even the infamous Kevin Bacon. Geogre 03:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

When this triva question is asked, the usual answer given is Tom Mix , but there were virtually all silent shorts. A British bit part actor called Sam Kydd is well-known for turning up with minor roles in hundreds of films. Jooler 10:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

According to imdb, Indian actor Adoor Bhasi made 553 movies. Mel Blanc is credited with 952 appearances, but most of those were cartoon shorts and almost all were voices, not screen appearances.

I have found more. Actor Tom London has 597 credits. Edmund Cobb has 605. Bud Osborne has 590. Actress Bess Flowers has 709. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What about the Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group woman in the white dress holding the torch? She didn't even get paid for that.

Actually the right answer for sure is Christopher Lee. He not only has appeared in 345 english movies but around the world. The man who has been on camera more hours than any one else is the guy from who wants to be a millionaire?

graduation and tassels

Which direction does one move the tassel at high school graduation - right to left or left to right, and why?

According to this page tassels are worn on the right before the graduate receives the diploma, and on the left afterwards. Why? Sounds like a question for the Straight Dope. Ziggurat 02:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Oedipus complex

Is Oedipus Rex the first documented expression of the Oedipus complex known? In other words, are there any documented evidence of any form, expressing the ideas of Freud's Oedipus complex that date back before the play: Oedipus Rex?

Any help available would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Do you mean the psychological complex or the event? The complex was first described by Freud, to the best of my knowledge, and used the event (killing the father and marrying the mother) from Oedipus Rex as the metaphor for that complex. To clarify: the play doesn't psychologize or extend the event to a psychological directive inherent in all humans, that's the complex, and came much later. If you're asking whether there are any events in literature of a similar kind that predate Oedipus Rex, I'm not aware of any. Ziggurat 03:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

If you read the sources both the Oedipus and Electra complexes are shockingly badly named but what do you expect from a coke-head?(hotclaws**== 12:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

Freud surely didn't rely on the fiction of Sophocles to form his conception of the Oedipus Complex. By that I mean, Freud surely didn't rely on that play as being the defining moment of when his theory of that particular aspect of human sexuality began. The play was simply a very convenient tool to express Freud's basic theories of human sexuality. Just as "sodomy" surely existed before the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, and that vain human tendency to attempt to lessen the value of what one cannot obtain surely predated Aesop's Sour Grapes fable, the Oedipus Complex was surely not "invented" by Sophocles. Loomis51 22:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

War Power of US Congress

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Representative John Murtha who is an outspoken critic of the continued U.S. military presence in Iraq says that he will still continue to vote for the $8 billion monthly tab.

Prima facie, I thought that he is hypocritic. However, maybe I don't clearly understand the War Powers Clause (Article 1, § 8, clause 11) and the revelant statutes. Could it be that even if all the members of Congress like Rep. Murtha and Robert C. Byrd stopped funding the war, then they still wouldn't be able to stop the war? That it would just give ammunition to war proponents to attack Murtha and his fellows for not supporting the troops.

Can you explain this matter to me? Does there need to be 1/2 or 2/3 of Congress to stop the war?Patchouli 04:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears that you are mixing two different things. By Constitutional definition, the "war" in Iraq is a "police action". The United States has not had a "war" since World War II. Because it is Constitutionally a "police action", Bush only required authorization from Congress to use force - which he received. As for funding, Congress sets the budget. They could cut military funding in an attempt to stop the war by depleting financial resources, but the President can divert military spending from other areas (like border patrol). Congress could then pass a law about diverting funding if they liked. However, as it stands, Congress is very busy being politicians. They voted to authorize use of force. They have continually voted to authorize a lot of money to continue using force. All the while, they've been pointing at Bush and blaming him for everything. It makes me wonder if the citizens of the United States will ever hold Congress responsible or will they continue to blame President after President for the actions of Congress. --Kainaw ^(talk) 12:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Other than World War II, what are the other "formal wars?"Patchouli 16:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  See Declaration of war by the United States. — Lomn Talk 16:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Hypothetically speaking, if the Congress wanted to stop funding the Iraq War, would there have to be a supermajority in both congressional chambers or a simple majority?Patchouli 17:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to make things clear, those who oppose the war but vote for funding are doing so in order to make sure that US troops are kept safe. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Paying for Iraq is a funding issue. It would require 3/5th vote. 2/3 is reserved for changing Congressional rules (I assume this included ammendments to the Constitution). As for why a senator or representative would be against the war and still vote for funding it, that is speculation. One may be for keeping troops safe, while another has a manufacturer of HMMWV armor in their state and yet another is paid off by a civil contractor doing joint business with the military in Iraq. One could even use it to ensure people continue hating Bush for the war until the next election. --Kainaw ^(talk) 18:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Just curious, where can I find the 3/5th rule? Loomis51 21:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It is found in the supermajority article. "The United States Senate requires a supermajority of 60 percent (3/5) to move to a vote through a cloture motion, which closes debate on a bill or nomination, thus ending a filibuster by a minority of members."Patchouli 02:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It could be a simple majority vote for a budget vote - but I'm not sure. I know it doesn't require a "supermajority" which is 3/4 vote. A 3/5 vote pops up all over with Congress (such as a 3/5 vote to end a filibuster). So, since I wasn't sure if it was a 3/5 or a simple majority, I opted for the greater of the two. I'd rather be wrong with 3/5 than wrong with >50%. --Kainaw ^(talk) 22:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure spending bills are no different from other bills and require only a simple majority. But if people in the Senate really objected to it, they could filibuster. It would take a three-fifths vote in the Senate to end the filibuster. -- Mwalcoff 00:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think it would be possible for 41 US senators to cut funding to the Iraq War by filibustering and sinking the bill for war funds. Concurrently, they could pass a law to forbid Bush from diverting funds to the war with the help of 10 additional senators, thereby bring the war to a halt or lowering troop deployment to 50,000 in an ideal world.Patchouli 02:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I have been proved correct since today US senators voted 93-6 to shelve the proposal, which would have allowed "only forces that are critical to completing the mission of standing up Iraqi security forces" to remain in 2007 - forget about blocking funding. I am personally on the fence about staying in Iraq, but I wanted to verify that it isn't just President Bush who is holding the troops in Iraq singlehandedly. John Kerry and five other Democrats were in the minority on the vote — Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, Barbara Boxer of California, Robert Byrd of West Virginia, Tom Harkin of Iowa, and Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts.[30]Patchouli 20:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Highest Paid Athlete in 1986

I have spent literally hours over the last couple days searching for the name of the highest paid athlete in 1986, with our without endorsements. I found one site that said it was possibly Geoge Foster of the New York Mets. Can this be true? Thank You!!! CEP --65.111.193.170 05:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

For what sport and what country? What about Diego Maradona? I'm sure he made far more money in 1986 than anyone playing baseball in the US. Adam Bishop 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

timeline

timeline by editor 1

i'm looking a time line about cathy freeman...

THANKS!!!!!

Have you looked at Cathy Freeman yet? JackofOz 06:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• This question was deleted by another editor by mistake and has now been restored. Road Wizard

timeline by editor 2

Can anyone give me the timeline of indian forts? i really need help.

PS> some jerk changed this question already, no need for you to do it again. plz answer only, [broadband PA redacted].

Could you clarify your request? The statement as it stands is quite vague. — Lomn Talk 16:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think we answered a similar question a few days ago, possibly from the same author. Please see the articles in Category:Forts in India as that holds the information we have available. As it says at the top of the page, Do your own homework, we won't do it for you. Road Wizard 19:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I have split this question in two because there appears to have been a misunderstanding. This edit was a new question about Cathy Freeman. Whilst this edit asked a question about Indian fort timelines on June 8. I think the author of the Idian question assumed that someone had deleted their question and replace the Cathy Freeman one with this. The June 8 question is still listed here. Now that both questions are restored, this will hopefully resolve the misunderstanding. Road Wizard 20:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Cherry

Another random phrase question: Does anyone know where the phrase "X is cherry" (for instance, "the car is cherry", meaning there is nothing wrong with it) comes from? Thanks in advance for any ideas! — QuantumEleven 06:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Fairly vulgar, but I believe it refers to the item being untouched and virginal. I.e. the usage derives from the slang usage of "cherry" for hymen. Geogre 11:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Tends to be "mint" in the UK,so flavour comes into it?(hotclaws**== 12:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)) I always assumed 'in mint condition' and hence 'mint' originally referred to freshness, but that may be a little too folk-etymology. Skittle 16:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that "mint" is in reference to the minting process, i.e. just made, not related to the flavor. — Lomn Talk 16:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As soon as I read your edit summary I did a little forehead slap.... :-) Skittle 16:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Editions of John Calvin's Commentaries

I have trandlated Calvins Commentaries on the Epistles of St Paul into Afrikaans. In his Commentaries on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians he dedicated it to a certain Christophorus, Count os Wittenberg. This implies that these commentaries were published in one volume. Where can I get a list of the Latin editions published during and after his lifetime? I also ned a list of translations of these commentaries in English, French German and Dutch or in any other langusge if such a translation exists. My thanks in anticipation of a reply. (I heve a neurological balance problem which makes it virtually impossible to visit liberaries) Prof. S. Postma e-mail stepostma at mweb dot co dot za (email translitterated with the aim to avoid you spam or worse).

Instead of visiting libraries, might a little visit on the net be of some help ? We'll try also, let the winner win! --DLL 18:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That site has front pages photographs of those buks and tells things like : "Calvin wrote commentaries on all of Paul's epistles; most of these were published individually from Romans in 1540 through Titus in 1548 and Hebrews in 1549. He published a revised edition ..." Take a look and tell us if you liked it. --DLL 19:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

English Comic Verse

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I am looking for the text of a comic verse,which begins:-

"Upon the river's bank serene A fisher sat, where all was green, And looked it!

At last, when light was growing dim, he saw a fish, or the fish saw him, And hooked it"

Each verse has the 'double entendre' of those shown above.

Tony

Check out this page. --vibo56 ^talk 15:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Cameron vs, Brown

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In the UK who would likely win in the next general election Cameron's party (Conservative) or Browns party (Labor)? Who is personally more popular Cameron of Brown?

From my personal point of view, David Cameron has done a pretty good job at charming the media since he became leader of the Conservative Party. However, he is only now starting to reveal his party's policies, and there has been quite a negative reaction to these (particularly considering withdrawing the European Democrats from its aliance with the European People's Party). Gordon Brown is likely to be the next leader of the Labour Party (note how the name of the party is spelled). He is suffering at the moment from the fading popularity of Tony Blair's government, but many see him as good for the economy (or at least better than anyone else around). If Cameron's policies continue to meet with negative reaction and Brown is able to stamp his own authority on Labour, it's going Brown's way. Otherwise, we're in for a close race. The third party, the Liberal Democrats, also have a new leader, Menzies Campbell. He is generally regarded as too old and cautious to bring the party into better fortunes. However, if the gap between Labour and Tories is narrowed, the Lib Dems may become a vey important part of the next government. — Gareth Hughes 10:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody knows right now; election predictions this far out are notorious for being clobbered by external events. A classic example was the 2001 Australian federal election, where John Howard's Liberal Party looked like it was in serious trouble until external events intruded and the incumbent government exploited them to the hilt.

The best-known tools we have we have for answering your questions are probably opinion polls. If you look through the online archives, of, say, The Guardian, you'll almost certainly find relevant articles on pertinent public polling on this question.

One further answer to your question can be found on the betting exchanges. At the moment, BetFair has a betting market open on the next general election, and the odds for Labour and the Conservatives are pretty much the same. So it seems that in the collecting judgement of the punters, the next election is a tossup at this stage. Interestingly, the odds on a hung parliament are lower than either, indicating that they think that is the most likely possibility! --Robert Merkel 23:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Music question

I'm trying to find the name and artist of a song I heard. I heard it in the movie A Night at the Roxbury, but it is not on the soundtrack album. Part of the song (techno/insturmental) is briefly heard in a scene where the brothers are arguing in the car (I know, that's like every other scene in the movie!). The music is kind of suspenseful, agitated. Any ideas? - Cybergoth 14:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There are a few tracks listed in the film's entry in the IMDB that don't appear on the soundtrack. It's probably one of those. Might help to narrow your search down a bit. --Richardrj 15:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That was super-helpful! I found the song in 30 seconds - it's "Nightmare" by Brainbug. Thanks - Cybergoth 15:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Significance of metal stars on New England US buildings

Does anyone know the significance of all the stars on the sides of buildings throughout New England, USA? Some are attached to braces to anchor brick walls to a building, but why a star? And there are lots of decoration stars even on civil war era buildings. BrianInFrederick 15:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There is some information for you in the Barnstar article, although it does not state specifically why a star shape was chosen. --LarryMac 16:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)*

any conection with Hex Marks? (hotclaws**== 11:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC))

What are Hex Marks? Can't find any reference. BrianInFrederick 16:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

How to upload spreadsheet into article

Dear Wikipedia,

Can you please help me with an upload. I have done a graphical analysis of one of the movements (Lauda Jerusalem) of Monteverdi's Vespers of 1610 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monteverdi_Vespers_of_1610). I noticed that images can be uploaded but did not see any references to spreadsheets.

Thank you very much!

Stan Baker Richmond, VA

You can add tables to the articles using either HTML table tags or WikiMedia table structure. That will allow a grid of data to be easily added. If it is a graph you want to add, save it as an image and upload it. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

looking for typical 'Chinese' mountains

Hello,

I don't know if this belongs here, but I would like to know more about those 'typical' Chinese mountains. Whenever mountains of China (in the People's Republic of China) are shown, they show these quite tall, how to say this, sharp peaks all close to each other. I find this very beautiful, but I would like to know, what are they called and where (in what province, because China is really big) are they?

This is what I mean : http://www.georgeandpaula.com/photos/china/china15.jpg

Evilbu 16:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

See Himalaya. They are rather new in the mountain sense - so they are tall and pointy. Very old mountains, like the Smokey Mountains in the U.S. are flat and round. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? I really don't think the picture shows Himalayan mountains? I don't any snow?Evilbu 19:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

but you also don't any verb...

I mean, click on the word Himalaya and you will see an article about a huge range of mountains in southwest China (and neighboring countries). That is not the only mountain range in China, but it is the largest. As for snow, what makes you think that every mountain in the Himalaya range has snow on it? That's just silly. I did look at other photos in the collection of the photo you included. It appears to be a trip from Beijing to the Great Wall, and then up the Huanghe River to the foothills of the Himalaya. But, that is just a guess since he didn't label them. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There are a large number of mountain ranges in China, and it will be quite difficult to identify the specific ones in the photo you linked to. I must admit, however, that the ones in the photo don't look like any part of the Himalayas I have ever seen. A quicker way to answer your question may be to contact the creator of the photo at the website you listed (http://www.georgeandpaula.com). Their website says "George" took it on his 1986 tour of China. Road Wizard 19:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitely not the Himalayas. This is a vague recollection from a course in Asian art I took way too long ago, but the "typical" Chinese mountains that one finds in ink and wash painting are mostly from the Song Dynasty of China. If I'm remembering correctly, the Northern Song dynasty (960-1127) had its capital in Kaifeng, where the mountains are quite rugged, while the Southern Song (1127-1279)had its capital at Hangzhou, south of the Yangtse River where the hills are much more rounded and the climate lends itself to mist. The court artists obviously painted whatever was around them so, going way out on a limb, I would guess that you are thinking of the Southern Song rounded hills around Kaifeng, perhaps of the Yangtse or a nearby tributary. Take a look at the pictures in those articles and see if they strike a chord. - BT 19:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Those pictures look to me exactly like the mountains I saw travelling along the Li River in China - i took a couple of pictures just like that; i'm thinking of this one in particular. Hope this helps! СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 20:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Darn it, you beat my correction! The photos at Lijiang River in Guangxi Province look pretty similar. - BT 20:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Korean swirly thing

What is that Korean swirly symbol that looks kind of like a yin-yang? I see it all the time in Korean restaurants and I think there's a big one hanging in Gimpo airport. It's red, white, and blue and it looks like a yin-yang but there are three swirl things instead of two. Is there an article about this? Thanks!

interesting question. is it depicted to the left of the first picture here? (It seems to match your description, but with black for red. If that's what it looks like we can look for more pictures, history, culture, etc, and with some help from koreans on wp I think (based on what you said above) that the symbol would merit a nice article. 87.97.8.197 19:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That's it, except I usually see red instead of black! I see that thing all the time. Surely it means something.

It's called the Sam-Taeguk, and is a variation of the Taeguk symbol, seen on the flag of South Korea.--Pharos 23:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

See also article Triskelion for somewhat similar-looking symbols; I added a picture of the 1988 Seoul Olympics logo to Taeguk. AnonMoos

Need Help finding the Title to a series of books, please...

I read this series of book sabout 10 years ago and would really like to find them, the problem is that I can't remember the title or the author. The books were about this girl who was somthing of a warrior, she also had "seeing" powers. She was on a quest, I think that she had purple eyes. If anyone has any idea of what I'm talking about- or can help me in finding the series I would really appreciate the input.

Thank you- E

Is it Witch Baby? [31] Just a guess from googling (girl quest "purple eyes") Nowimnthing 20:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortuantely it's not- but this looks like an interesting read...Thanks though.* Witch World series by Andre Norton?(hotclaws**== 11:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC))

I'm almost certianly wrong, and I'm definitely too old for popular contemporary sci-fi/fantasy, but didn't Ursula K. LeGuin have orange skin and funky eyes for one of her protagonists in the Earthsea books? Geogre 12:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you all for your help...I actually found the answer from another site. It's a Tamora Pierce series...

Doctors and medical care in the early industrial revolution

Hi. I'm trying to find some info on the above topic, (I'll be refuting whether doctors managed to solve the healthcare problems of industrialising Britain) and not doing too well. Basically looking for info on basic medical healthcare in the early industrial revolution, (mainly over the 1800's) and looking for examples. Any suggestions? (Any help gratefully accepted)

As a starter, you may wish to read through the articles listed in Category:British doctors. At least a few of the articles I checked were about doctors of the 18 hundreds. Road Wizard 21:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Roy Porter's last book, I believe, was on the history of medicine in the 18th century. Rather large, and not very readable by his standards (the metaphors he pursues feel forced to me). Additionally, Michel Foucault's The Birth of the Clinic is short, but it's primarily about France during that era. Geogre 00:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Quakers were very progressive in the health care of their workers E.G. the Rowntrees(hotclaws**== 11:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC))

Old Radio Show

I heard this old radio show one night on late night radio (right before bed to, bad idea) It was about some astronauts thats went out to space and some problems happened and the ship blew up... well when it did the 5 or so who were left when floating off in different directions in space. The story then went on about how one by one they went insane or killed them selves or died. Like one went into the sun and the last one plumeted into the earth. Well then the show ended with this little girl in the park with her mom and telling her mom "look it a shooting star" and it was the guy going into the earth. It was kinda scary (especially considering I was laying in bed in the dark by my self and it was like midnight). I've tried looking for it and asking people but no one know what it was. Any ideas would be great! Thanks BaptistKitty 22:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Katrina

• I think we might need some more information. First off, what country were you in when you heard it on the radio? Also, roughly how long ago was it? (A month, a year, etc.) Road Wizard 23:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It's "Kaleidoscope" by Ray Bradbury. It appeared as a short story in The Illustrated Man. --Joelmills 00:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, thats it!! Thanks for the help! Katrina 03:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)Katrina

ER and insurance

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, i've always wanted to know the answer to this question but, in my european surroundings (i'm british), no one is able to give me an fact based, non-aren't-americans-bad type answer. basically, given that america has no universal health care (tut tut) and given that alot of people dont have health insurance (is it really as high as 40 million?) what happens when a non-insured person is in a serious accident? is he left on the hospital doorstep? is he treated then presented which a large bill which he can never pay back? or does the hospital, in a moments fiscal blindness, do it pro bono? or does it vary completely? thanks! 87.194.20.253 23:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

American hospital emergency rooms are required to treat all patients, those who can't pay, don't and end up raising the bills of those who can. Some doctors also treat uninsured patients for free (especially those with life-threatening conditions), which may require those doctors to raise the health fees of their other patients. Emmett5 00:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

All of the above, but the last 2 are by far the most common. All US hospitals that benefited from public money are required to render some charity care to the poor by the Hill-Burton Act. This is satisfied in a variety of ways. Because there have been real instances where a critically ill or injured person has been turned away at the door (usually by sending them in an ambulance to a hospital the accepts indigient patients), there are regulations in nearly all states that prohibit hospitals with emergency departments from transfering or denying service to someone with a condition that represents a threat of real harm even if they cannot pay. The majority of ED visits in big cities by the poor however do not fall into that category from a medical perspective. Finally, your last scenario is also all too real as well, and hospitals often turn unpaid bills over to bill collectors. Unpayable medical bills are a factor in a minority of bankruptcy filings. alteripse 10:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

As I'm told by Americans, the real problem with emergency care in the US arises not if you are very very poor; you'll get your emergency needs taken care of, and probably paid for you. The problem is that if you have any money at all you are then liable for the bill, which may run to tens of thousands of dollars, and probably more than you would pay in other countries. The moral of this story: if you are visiting the US be very, very sure you have medical insurance. It also explains why European travel insurance comes in three price ranges: Europe (cheap); Everywhere except the US (expensive); Everywhere including the US (very expensive). DJ Clayworth 14:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys! exactly what i needed i know...87.194.20.253 12:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

June 14

Ulm

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

What is the nearest airport of any kind to Ulm, Germany?

• From the city centre, the closest airport is Stuttgart (STR) at 65.8 km, and the next closest that of Augsburg (AGB) at 68.8 km. I don't know whether that is "as the crow flies" or the travel distance by car. --Lambiam^Talk 01:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Note that there are almost certainly minor aerodromes or airstrips closer. Searching [Fallingrain.com may help more. Grutness...wha? 03:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Humans

On average, what is the most ticklish part of the body? Most of the time I get feet but that's not my main turn-on.

On a purely anecdotal and subjective basis, I would guess the soles of the feet (not the feet in general) and the elbows... AnonMoos 01:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends on the person, but tickling should give you the answer. --ColourBurst 01:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you referring to a sexual "turn-on"? Erogenous zones and ticklish zones are not necessarily the same places. Tickling can definitely be a turn-off if done to excess. JackofOz 04:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

On average, surely it would be somewhere near the waist. Soles of feet and top of head would average there, to start with. Grutness...wha? 08:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Validity of Ayatollah Khomeini Quotes Condoning Pedophilia/Bestiality

My question concerns quotes attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini in the new book "The Dunces of Doomsday: 10 Blunders That Gave Rise to Radical Islam, Terrorist Regimes, and the Threat of an American Hiroshima" by Paul L. Williams. The book is published by WND Books (World Net Daily) and the author is obviously quite conservative (even President Bush and Donald Rumsfeld are "dunces" - apparently not conservative enough). The bias of the author and the sheer outrageousness of the quotes greatly aroused my suspicion.

Anyway, here are the quotes. From page 53:

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate; sodomizing the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister... It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's house. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." (the citation given is listed on page 205, "Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, vol. 4 (Gom, Iran: Darol Elm 1990), 186.")

The other quote appears (the position of the quote is a bit odd) to be attributed to Khomeini (with no citation given), from page 61:

"A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels, and so on. However, he should kill the animal after orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in the village; however, selling the meat to people in a neighboring village is permissible."

Did Khomeini really write these things? If so, is there possibly some context that could explain them? Or was he really straight out condoning these things?

Thank you.

-Edvard

• If you have not done so yet, you could wade through the maze and clutter on Talk:Ruhollah Khomeini to sift some things from the lengthy discussion.Patchouli 04:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The Tahrirolvasyleh reminds me a bit of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, both in terms of its proliferation (solely by virulent opponents of its alleged author) and its overall vibe of spuriousness. The fact that this author (presumably without ironic intent) describes Jimmy Carter as "the worst president in America's history" makes me doubt not only his credibility but his sanity. It doesn't help that his book is published by World Net Daily, which combines the humanity of Der Stürmer with the journalistic integrity of The National Enquirer. Bhumiya (said/done) 05:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit uncalled for. WND does more to highlight and condemn the use of the Protocols than its critics. Andjam 06:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I haven't read Paul L. Williams' book. But Jimmy Carter himself was fooled by Khomeini's rhetoric that ostensibly championed freedom of speech and press. As a result, Carter was on the fence in terms of supporting Muhammad Reza Pahlavi, would only begrudgingly welcome the Shah into the US on 22 October 1979 for medical treatment, and really wanted to befriend the Ayatollah until Khomeini endorsed the storming of the US Embassy in Tehran 13 days later.

In fact, the Shah knew that Carter would not help him topple Khomeini which is why after his overthrow on 11 February 1979, the Shah fumbled in Africa trying to enlist the help of Egypt and Morocco to return to power which did not work out.Patchouli 06:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• According to this article on Theo Van Gogh, it seems that Van Gogh's phrase "goat-f*ckers" was a reference to Khomeini's alleged teachings. Considering who he was murdered by, he must have been on the right track overall. Andjam 06:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Use of "Merovingian" in Proust

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought it would be easy to figure this out, but all the definitions I find for "Merovingian" are like "of or relating to the first Frankish dynasty..."; but what does Proust mean when he uses in _Swann's Way_? What is the cultural significance of it, as the narrative is set in the late 19th century? Thanks!

Well he seems to use it in a variety of ways[32]. Merovingian Past probably just means the distant past, while Merovingian age probably refers to the fact that the Merovingians were the beginning of the dark ages. Please wait while someone comes along to explain that the dark ages were not as dark as they are made out to be. Another allusion which the Merovingians are often used for is the idea of petty, local despotic rulers compared to the all encompassing Roman empire. Finally, as a writer Proust may have been thinking of the Merovingian script.MeltBanana 03:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Banned Books

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Are there any books that are banned by the United States government which even adults over 21 are prohibited access thereto?Patchouli 07:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There are no books currently banned by the United States Government, that I am aware of. However, it is possible for a public school district to ban a book from their curriculum, for a locality to ban books from their local library, and for other local-level censorship to occur. A direct answer to your question is given here. Note that the article's implied speculation concerning instruction manuals on dirty bombs is wrong -- it's perfectly legal to print that information, and I've read international security journal articles that have discussed the same. (And it certainly doesn't take a nuclear physicist to figure it out anyway.) This page might also shed some light on the issue. --DavidGC 07:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Is a library not buying a book equivalent to banning it? Andjam 09:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No. A library has two functions when it comes to books. They maintain a collection of books that are considered important. They hold a temporary collection of new and popular books that will soon be forgotten. If I write a book and get some fly-by-night publisher to make a few copies, there is absolutely no reason for the library to purchase it. That isn't because it is banned. It is because the book is neither important or popular. --Kainaw ^(talk) 13:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. between 1996 and 2002 I assume many books were implicitly banned for fictive depictions of minors (drawings, etc) that would [if they had depicted actual underage persons instead] constitute child pornography. The article I just links concludes "In a 6-3 opinion, the Court decided that the two above provisions were unconstitutional because they abridged 'the freedom to engage in a substantial amount of lawful speech.'" Of course, any books today that actually consist of underage actors engaged in sexually explicit conduct would be "banned" (both possession and distribution), but such a book would never even see publication, except self-published, with penalties for doing so. Books aren't banned in the united states for "political" reasons, if that's what you're thinking, but there are penalties in some states for hate speech (if you incite someone to violence against members of a protected group, tell them how to commit the violence, etc). Once you get into this class of legal issues all sorts of things limit free speech, from copyright law, contractual obligations (NDA's on trade secrets) national security (releasing classified documents you're privileged to, but this wouldnt apply to you unless you were the one abusing your security clearing), libel, etc. These are all free speech issues. But I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Talk to a lawyer if you're interested in what restrictions there are on publishing in the united states. 82.131.188.126 09:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

the closest recent thing (other than the pedophilia) I can think of is Hit Man which was not really banned by the U.S. courts, but the publisher settled out of court and agreed to destroy all copies. Interestingly some claim that made it public domain and have since published it online. Private businesses can of course censor what they carry. Government funded libraries and schools can choose what materials they carry according to local community standards, but as far as the government officially banning a book or movie it has happened in the past, esp. during McCarthyism but not recently. Nowimnthing 13:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Although not now banned James Joyce's Ulysses was banned for 11 years in the U.S.A, from 1922 til 1933. The U.S.A post office famously burned at least one batch of 500 copies which were imported into the country. It took a court case to get the ban lifted. AllanHainey 11:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

For more on which one may read United States v. One Book Entitled Ulysses (cited as 72 F.2d 705, 707 [C. A. 2d Cir. 1934], affirming 5 F. Supp. 182 [D.C. S.D.N.Y. 1933]), as is summarized here. Joe 16:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

oldest town in europe

Hi could you help me ..I have been trying to find out which is the oldest town in europe and keep coming up with conflicting info . There seems to be alarge number of towns which claim to be the oldest. I would greatly appreciate your help in this matter. In naswering coudl you also provide some historical back ground tho the town

The conflicting info is probably because about sixty or seventy towns/cities across Europe claim they are 'the oldest town in Europe'. It's just lies - I've been to four cities that I know of that have a restaurant that is 'the oldest in Europe'. I don't think there'd be a definitive answer - it all depends on your definition of town. Proto||type 11:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Humans (and their ancestors) have lived together in organized communities since way before recorded history, so the question is impossible to answer without a very precise definition of "town" that (just to start with) places it somewhere within recorded history. You might want to try approaching this by reading our article on civilization. --Shantavira 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

List of oldest continually-inhabited cities gives the nod to Damascus, about 6,500 years old. EamonnPKeane 13:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course Damascus isn't actually in Europe. AllanHainey 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Just wait. --DLL 17:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Gadir (current Cadiz) is considered the "most ancient city still standing in western Europe." But yeah, who knows. --RiseRover|^talk 20:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The answer becomes obvious once you define "oldest", "town", and "in Europe". --Serie 21:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

longest war in world

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Kindly tell me, which was the longest war to have occurred in the whole world ? Please do not take into account any mythological views.Thanx. - KUTTU.

Well, by a simple Google search, it shoes that there is a consensus on the Hundred Years War being the longest war ever. Little tidbit though, it was actually called the one years war, but only at the beginning :) schyler 12:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again, it's a question of definition. According to our article on long Wars, the Three Hundred and Thirty Five Years' War between the Netherlands and the Isles of Scilly, [was] technically the longest war ever.--Shantavira 12:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not forget the eternal war between good and evil. --DLL 16:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That one's mythical: there's no such thing as "good". --Serie 21:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

       Thankxx, for the references on long wars. But i am 
  really searching for a war - which was not a combination of
  petty battles, nor a culmination of several minor wars
  between arch rivals, and without any declared ceasefire .
  It might be nothing near those figures(yrs.)you mentioned,
  still, it should be a CONTINUOUS war , in real sense. It's
  not necessary, that it should be an ancient one , you can
  cite instances of modern day wars, till date.   
                                         thankxxx, once again
                                                       KUTTU.

You might be interested in the Thirty Years' War: thirty years of near-constant fighting in Germany. --Serie 19:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

(Vanadalism removed) Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I simply have '''NO IDEA''' from where , did the '''HIMALAYAS''' take its entry to the '''EUROPEAN BATTLEFIELD''' !!! --KUTTU.

Confucianism report

I have been asked to write a report on "The teachings of Confucius as recorded in the Analects".

I am having trouble thinking of how to write and structure this. Is there a set number of teachings that he had in the Analects? Or should I just go over some of the main ones? Or is there some kind of an outline I could follow?

Help would be appreciated, thank you.

Have you considered reading Analects of Confucius, or did you simply want someone else to write it for you? --Kainaw ^(talk) 13:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I have considered reading that. I have read it over several times, as well as other Wikipedia articles. I didn't ask anyone to write anything for me. All I asked was if anyone had suggestions on how to structure such a report on Confucius' teachings within the Analects. Have you considered reading PROPERLY, or do you simply jump to conclusions ALL the time? gelo 14:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I assume and jump to conclusions. It makes life more like a rollercoaster ride. I would suggest using the same structure as the article, with one addition. Who is Confucius? What are the Analects? When were they written? Why are they important? Basically, it is the generic structure that SHOULD be taught in any writing class: Who What Where When Why. In this case, the Where is assumed to be China. --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Who is Confucius? What are the Analects? When were they written? Why are they important?

Do your own homework, Kainaw.

82.131.188.126 15:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC). sorry, read too quickly

Ok, so you suggest to use the article outline. Well, the question is more concerning the TEACHINGS of Confucius as recorded in The Analects, and the present article on the Analects does not contain anything in much detail on the teachings contained therein.. gelo 06:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

BBC comeback list does not include de Gaulle

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5048382.stm

Because of Alan Garcia's comeback in Peru, BBC made a comeback list.

Why is de Gaulle missing?? Evilbu 13:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Because they forgot him. Because the wretched hack who wrote the list hadn't heard of him or failed to do his research. Because the list isn't exhaustive. Pick one or other of the reasons from the above non-exhaustive list. --Richardrj 14:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you use the form at the bottom of the article to suggest people they missed? I assume they left him out for two reasons. First, he's French and the BBC is British. Second, my limited knowledge of him is that he rose to power through the military and then fell out of favor in 1968 and retired. I don't know of a major comeback. --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

How about because he never really made a comeback (unless you count the first time he was elected as PM then President as France as a comeback from the period during which he wasn't the unelected head of the French Government in Exile). He was President of France once, albeit for 10 years, and was generally popular until he got increasingly unpopular, he resigned & later died. AllanHainey 14:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

In order to avoid confusion, what I would see as a comeback, is the start of the Fifth Republic of France, in the late fifties. Evilbu 14:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, they did say "a guide to some" of the most successful comebacks. They never claimed it was a complete list, and they even asked people to nominate other entries. JackofOz 21:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Er... De Gaulle did spend a decade "crossing the desert" (from the end of the provisional post-war government in 1946 to his presidency in 1958). See Charles_de_Gaulle#1946.E2.80.931958:_The_desert_crossing. David.Monniaux 11:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I have proof that the FDA is tapping my phone calls?

Is this considered legal?—Yi^pe 15:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. General Eisenhower • (at war or at peace) 16:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure it's the Federal Drug Administration that's doing it? Phone tapping is generally done by the FBI, CIA, NSA, and other law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Emmett5 16:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The FDA is the Food and Drug Administration. Maybe he or she is attempting to traffic in flour that hasn't been properly entoleted. --LarryMac 16:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We have a long and detailed article on telephone tapping that describes the legal position. --Shantavira 17:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't you remember that thing Bush did? "In order to protect the freedom(s) of the american people.."? It had a name... the bill of whatever I guess...

A line that comes to mind is Big Brother is watching you. VdSV9•♫ 17:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I do remember. Back in 1978. Wasn't he a raging DWI drunk at the time? It is amazing how he was passing laws back then, but the conspiracy theorists can't be wrong. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Something very odd is going on with this user... all their edits are on user pages about sockpuppets, and then there's this in his contributions:

1. 08:52, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User:NSA powered vandalbot (very funny, ha ha) (top)
2. 08:51, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:Pgk (rv vandalism by FDA powered vandalbot)
3. 08:50, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:152.163.100.131 (→Your edit to Crab Nebula your vandalism by FDA powered vandalbot) (top)
4. 08:48, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User:El Pgk (you're working for the FDA aren't you?) (top)
5. 08:48, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:El Pgk (please stop tapping my phone calls!)
6. 08:47, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:Pgk (rv vandalism by NSA powered vandalbot)

-Goldom (t) (Review) 17:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what's so odd about that—Yi^pe 18:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It does seem rather obsessive, I suppose. As does categorizing people's accounts as part of AOL DoS attacks without posting any supporting evidence for your assertions, at least at first glance. --DavidGC 18:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, patriot act, thanks kainaw. VdSV9•♫ 18:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is legal to have proof that the FDA is tapping your phone. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

American President buried in another country

I once heard a triva qestion that was who is the armerican president buried in another country. Sadly I was not able to hear the answer. Does anyone know? Thanks

Jack should know this... VdSV9•♫ 17:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Check this site. Every United States President is buried (or at least has a gravesite) in what is currently the United States. It is possible that one was buried in a place that was later turned into a state. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I reached the same conclusion from searching Find A Grave - US Presidents and Vice Presidents. George Washington has a memorial in London, but was buried at Mount Vernon. It could be a trick question, depending on how it was phrased - e.g., I can think of a couple of U.S. Presidents who weren't buried in the U.S.A (or anywhere else).... or "American" could be interpreted to include South America and Canada. Or it might just be an error by the question master. --TheMadBaron 17:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to an increasingly widespread belief, I don't actually know everything, VdSV9. Only most things, and all the things worth knowing. (Lol) No, I've never heard of any POTUS being buried outside the US. Funnily enough, though, I was thinking only 3 or 4 days ago about creating a Wikipedia article with a list of the burial places of US Presidents and similar personages. But I would say that, wouldn't I.  :--) JackofOz 21:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ooh ooh! I got it– John Tyler died and was buried in Confederate Virginia (he was also an elected member of the Confederate government at the time).--Pharos 21:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

But the confederate states never achieved the status of a separate country, did they? Were they ever recognised by any foreign power as a nation separate from the USA? JackofOz 00:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

See the article... it is an iffy subject. --Kainaw ^(talk) 00:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Why, thank you, Kainaw. I never knew that. JackofOz 04:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• I'm pretty sure TheMadBaron has the right idea. The question as I've traditionally heard it are "Which U.S. presidents are not buried within the United States?"

{{spoiler}} And the answers are this one, this one, this one, this one, and this one. --Metropolitan90 02:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Completeness about Israel - Arab conflict.

Well, i have went through the articles about the arab israel conflict, and think that the manner in which all the data has been poured in that article, isnt too good, and makes it too complex to understand. I am a regular avid reader of wikipedia's articles, and have a collection of my own, amounting to about 500 Mb. But talking about this particular article, the article presents the facts, but does it in a very complex way. Of course, the problem itself is very complex. Compared to other articles of wikipedia, it isnt very recommendable. So if any of volunteers could modify it upto the standards of wikipedia, it would be great. I myself could do it, but dont have much knowledge about the happenings, so didnt do it. Wish some volunteer would make that article more simpler to understand. Thank You.

There might be a less complex version in the Simple English wikipedia, but feel free to remove unnecessary complexities in this version, too. Emmett5 23:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

But please discuss it on the article's Talk page before making massive changes. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Olympic boxer

Where is more information about Salamo Arouch? He was a Greek Jew who boxed as a middleweight in the Olympics (what year?), won at least one medal, and was deported to Auschwitz, but survived. He was portrayed in the 1989 movie Triumph of the Spirit. 66.213.33.2 21:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm. good question. We don't seem to have a page on him, and more surprisingly neither does http://www.jewishsports.net/. Unrelated, but you might also be interested in the movie Sunshine, starring Ralph Fiennes, part of which was based on the story of Attila Petschaeuer, a Hungarian-Jewish Olympic fencer who sadly did not survive his time in a WWII concentration camp. As for which Olympics, it would almost certainly have been the 1936 games in Berlin. Grutness...wha? 09:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I did a little googling, and it appears that he won some sort of pan-Balkans middleweight title in 1939, but not an Olympic medal (though he did participate).--Pharos 09:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

largest city

Can anyone tell me, or even know at that, at what is the largest city in the world by area?

According to a google search, Los Angeles is the largest city in the world by area, followed by Greater Auckland. --Fuhghettaboutit 22:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

See List of cities by surface area. It does depend on how different countries define 'city' though, as some include larger regions for administrative reasons. There's a decent discussion of the difficulties here. Ziggurat 22:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. My results from google sure are at odds with that list (Los Angeles isn't even listed). I think this is a parameter definition issue. Maybe the best answer is that it depends on the parameters you use to define the boundaries of a city's area.--Fuhghettaboutit 22:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that Los Angeles is the best bet for the real biggest city by area (i.e. continuous conurbation), and I've certainly heard that Greater Auckland is very spread out. But I have no reliable sources for that assumption! Maybe Guinness knows? Ziggurat 00:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Our article at Los Angeles, California claims it is the eleventh largest city in the United States, so this claim seems a little odd. Juneau, Alaska has a size of 3255 square miles, much of it water. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Certainly Kalgoorlie and Mount Isa stretch the traditional definition of city. What about Sydney, Australia? 12,000 sq km apparently.

Sydney is not a "city" as such, but a conurbation, I suppose. It is comprised of a number of different local government areas, most of which are cities in their own right, eg. Parramatta, Liverpool, Randwick, etc. Most Australian state capitals are similarly organised. Brisbane is the exception. It is governed by a single council, the Brisbane City Council, whose budget is greater than that of the state of Tasmania. JackofOz 00:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The same is true of Auckland, with technical and administrative divisions like Auckland City, North Shore City, Manukau City, and so forth. Ziggurat 00:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of it's administrative structure, Sydney is definitely bigger than Brisbane. Randwick is only about 10 km from the CBD. These days Parramatta and Liverpool seem to seamlessly blend into Sydney.

Mount Isa is often considered the largest by area as - as pointed out above, Sydney is a conurbation. Similarly Auckland is a conurbation - Dunedin is the largest individual city by area in New Zealand though - like Mt. Isa - it contains a large rural hinterland within the city limits. Grutness...wha? 09:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

its actually alice springs (in australia) or at least so i was told by the tour giude. its a tiny town (10,000-ish) but because its in the middle of the desert, they just drew the city limits miles away (for fun, it seems). it has one suburb which is 180km (100 miles) from the city centre and apparently the whole area is larger than switzerland! you could check the Guiness book of world records for the definitive answer i suppose. 87.194.20.253 19:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia

Wikipedia, tell me. This sight is pretty much run by all the users right? well what if a user puts something on that is not true? what will you do then? what if its true, like do you research it within minutes or...wut?

We do have a page that addresses this, but in brief: If you add something in, and you don't provide a source for me to check it, and I don't think it's true, I will remove it. I am more likely to remove it than spend the time and energy sourcing every comment added without a source. And often this happens within minutes. Skittle 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes are closely monitored by many wikipedians. And although there is a chance misinformation can creep into articles most things are caught quick. If looking for reliability of information be sure to see if the article has citations for all of its facts. Featured articles are also articles that meet a level of quality, and are peer reviewed by many wikipedians and can be considered quite reliable. --DennyCrane Talk 23:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is run by volunteers, and it relies on the fact that most people would rather help the world with new information than harm the world with false information. It also relies upon the fact that other readers will remove nonsense and mistakes. If those two things fail, users can nominate articles for deletion if they fail our guidelines. In addition, administrators watch recent pages, new pages, and the candidates for speedy deletion. That said, Wikipedia is not authoritative, and we are very clear about that. While most accounts rate our information as on par with print encyclopedias, we do not guarantee it, and our general reliability is a testimony to how generally true my first two sentences are. Geogre 02:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes misinformation can stay in Wikipedia for months, or even years, however. Chuck 22:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

luxuriosnous

does wikipedia have a list of top 10 most luxurious places to live? i dont know how it would be measured but, u never know...

Try watching the Travel Channel. I remember the "Top Ten" lists they put on. Not sure if they still have them now.Wizrdwarts (T|C) 23:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

first class/ second class townships

What is the difference between a first class and second class township?

I am not sure. Could you tell us where you came across the expression? Thanks. Road Wizard 23:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends on the state. -- Mwalcoff 01:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You get more legroom in first class townships, also someone comes around with a drinks trolley. AllanHainey

June 15

Las Vegas Trip

I'm going to visit Hoover Damn on Monday, driving from Las Vegas. I've been looking at the map for anything of interest between Las Vegas and the dam, but I can't find anything. Anyone live in the area? Is it just a stretch of desert (the kind I had to deal with when I lived in 29 Palms)? --Kainaw ^(talk) 01:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I drove through there last year, and if I recall correctly there ain't much there at all. When you get close to the Dam there's the Lake Mead National Recreation Area, but aside from that nothing springs to mind. Ziggurat 01:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Directly between Las Vegas and the dam, there's not much. Boulder City is vaguely interesting for its history, but the extra time is more worth spending at the dam (or rubbernecking the construction of the new bridge). But the dam is only 30 miles, mostly hilly for the last half of it. Oh, if you're a railroad buff, one branch of the Nevada State Railroad Museum is in Boulder City; I don't know if it's any good. There are a lot of interesting side trips around Lake Mead. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Just got back. Lake Mead and the dam were both good. Las Vegas is a pit. The commercials should say, "Las Vegas: Drop off your money and get the hell out. We don't want you here." --Kainaw ^(talk) 13:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Heh. There's actually lots of cool stuff you can do in Vegas that doesn't require burning large quantities of money, but those are officially reserved for Insiders. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Boudhayana

Does anyone have any further information on Boudhayana other than mere reference?

• have you tried Baudhayana with an a?--152.163.100.72 21:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

French military stance towards Germany, 1936

I heard recently (on an internet forum of all places) that France was ready to march troops over the border into Germany in 1936 but was restrained from such an action by the British government, who preferred to appease Hitler, implying that there was a great divison in the Allied camp pre-war. The result of the discussion, which I did not get involved in, was perhaps predictable and essentially the British alone got blamed for letting Hitler accumulate so much power. To what degree should the British government be blamed for trying to avoid another European war, considering that Europe had not recovered from and had certainly not forgotten the impact of the Great War. Did France explicitly threaten or recommend military action against Germany, and does this mean that they had more comprehension of the threat that Hitler posed?

Further to this question, can anybody theorise on the consequences of such a preemptive action. Germany was not entirely ready for a large war in 1939, never mind 1936, and obviously there are far more implications aside from the military ones. Some might say that Hitler was not likely to fight at this stage against the largest ground army in Europe, especially if France was the one taking agressive action. However it is likely that Germany would have been forced into conflict extremely early given Hitler's style of leadership, given that his stance was, from the beginning, 'All or nothing'.

I've just concluded a 3 year History degree during which I spent my last year studying Nazi Germany (with Ian Kershaw, no less), so I already have an extremely good working knowledge. I understand the issues I have raised already but was hoping to refresh my memory on this particular issue, but could not find any sort of page with the details of 1936 French military stance here on wikipedia. I'm sure there is one but searching yielded nothing.

Nice one!!!

cassidy

I haven't studied this for a few years, but the thing it reminds me of is when Hitler remilitarised the Rheinland - although in reverse. As I recall, the British government were keen to oppose him (although not in any position to do so), and so appealed to the French, who refused to take action because they were about to have an election, and didn't want to plunge France into a war - ironically, the Germans having been under orders to withdraw if they met any resistance due to their inability to fight a protracted conflict at that point.

As regards the speculation... who knows :) Mnemeson 03:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't thought about this for a while, but I believe that in France, many people would have wanted to avoid war if at all possible...remember that a large portion of the fighting of World War I took place in northern France, and the trauma of that was still fresh in people's minds.

Some search terms for you to try are "Popular Front" or "Front populaire" (the coalition of left-wing parties that came into power in 1936) and "Léon Blum" (the Socialist prime minister at the head of that coalition). There's also a book that I haven't read, but purports to deal with your question: Strange Victory by Ernest R. May. This book's title alludes to another book, L'étrange défaite or Strange Defeat by Marc Bloch, whose contents I do not remember.--Tachikoma 04:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't give you the whole story as it's been a while since I've looked at the subject myself, but maybe I can give you a few extra pieces of the puzzle to help you out. You probably already know most of this, but here goes: Due to the Treaty of Versailles Hitler had to very surrepticiously build up the German army during the 1930's. This meant being on reasonably good terms with the then extremely pacifist Government of Britain. In 1936, German military forces were still extremely weak, and posed no threat to France or Britain. France could have easily overrun Germany with very little resistance. But I'm sure you already knew that. (Of course, this action by France would have been considered, by todays standards, as "an illegal pre-emptive war based on nothing more than mere speculation and suspicion, with no hard evidence, of the threat posed by a brutal dictator who had the habit of murdering his own people", and should France have actually sent troops into Germany, they would surely be regarded by today's standards as "illegal occupiers of a sovereign nation".)

The one instance where I would differ from your summary of the situation in 1936 is in your terminology. Back in '36, I wouldn't say that the Brits were looking to appease Hitler, rather, as I said, their Government was extremely pacifist and many sort of sympathised with Germany's situation, in the sense that they felt that the Treaty was overly harsh and that all that Hitler really wanted to do (despite the fact that Mein Kampf was published 12 years earlier clearly outlining Hitler's true goal -- it was no secret) was rebuild Germany into a proper European power and restore the dignity it deserved. So basically what I'm saying is that 1936 was too early too speak of appeasement, as that seems to imply that Hitler was seen as a serious threat, and that actions were taken to convince him to change his policy of expansionism. True appeasement only began a little while later, when Hitler gradually but continuously began to appear to be more and more of a threat to the stability of Europe. I believe the policy if the British at that point in time (i.e. 1936) was not appeasement at all, but rather a naïve devotion to pacifism (i.e. make love not war), and, save for those constant rantings in Parliament by that paranoid, babyfaced, half-drunk, cigar smoking "warmonger" has-been MP from Kent, an ignorant blindness to what were Hitler's obvious intentions. Sorry I couldn't speak of the French position, as I'm far less informed as to the politics of France at the time than of Britain. In any case, I'm sure you already know most of this at least, if not all, so I'm sorry if all I just said is just a repetition of the basics of the lead-up to WWII. I just hope that I may have added perhaps one or two little elements that may have slipped your mind. Loomis51 11:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

True, appeasement in 1936 was not the right phrase to use, but the general idea was there. I recognise that Germany was in no position to fight in 1936 (the four year plan, in which Hitler stated he wanted the country ready for a war in 4 years, was only put forward in 36), especially against France. Also the problems regarding such a preemptive action are very clear, in all likelihood I think the French, if they did move, would be forced to withdraw after a short time and Hitler would merely be delayed. Perhaps even not that much as it would be easier for him to gain international support.

The French having been hit the hardest by WW1, and going through the process of an election, were unlikely to go to war without very good reason, and the British did have a pacifist government.

Basically, all very good points. :)

Still I am looking for any evidence to the contrary, ie explicit French recommendation for action. I ****ing hate it when somebody just invents facts to try and bolster their argument on a message board, it's so stupid.

cassidy [After computer problem & edit conflict]

As you no doubt know France did invade the Ruhr valley in 1923 but had to abandon it after a German workers strike & campaign of passive resistance. As to anotherproposed invasion in 1936, presumably in response to German reoccupation of the Rhineland, I'm not aware that this was ever seriously considered by the French (though a few politicians may have advocated it). I believe at this time the French were more focussed on beefing up the Maginot Line and extending it along the Belgian border than taking any offensive operations. During this period the French overall seem from what I've read to be more focussed on the defensive than offensive with relation to Germany.

As regards the British attitude there was a general feeling there that Hitler was "only going into his own backyard" and there was, with a few exceptions, felt to be no harm in this as it was simply allowing a redressing of an extrememely harsh treaty. I'd agree with Loomis51 that it is far to early to characterise this as appeasement - that only began once there was a real threat posed by Germany to Britain and when Hitler began moving in on other countries/areas with partially German populations. AllanHainey 14:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

re:The British mindset - strange as it seems, given what was to follow, Naziism was just a low priority for British leaders. They were more concerned about economic problems and radicalism at home and abroad. For obvious reasons, the French were more worried. Jameswilson 23:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Clinton's internal US travel?

I remember reading back in 2000 odd that Clinton had visited 49 US states, but there was one he'd flown over a hundred times, and never landed in. A bit vague, and Google doesn't seem to know much about his internal travel, but I was wondering if anyone knew which one he'd missed out?

cheers! Mnemeson 03:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• I guess he could have flown over Alaska many times on trips to Asia, but I would be surprised if he hadn't visited there somtime (there are a lot of military installations there etc.). Or it could just be some small state near DC like Maryland or Delaware (which has no significant commercial airport) that he just always drove to.--Pharos 03:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Or I could have just searched google and told you it was Nebraska.[33] [34]. But wild guessing is generally more fun.--Pharos 03:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • That it is. And I apparently should have checked a few more pages. Thanks! Mnemeson 04:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

just a question...

Hi. I just want to ask that what would be the best answer to the question "Is good always right?"

Thank You...!!

I think you would need to define "good" and "right". Also, it is possible for someone to do something that they believe is good and right but actually be doing the wrong thing, like giving money to a friend in difficulties, who then spends it on drink and gets in a wreck.

If you define "right" as meaning legal then there are many instances when "right" might not be "good". It was illegal for Germans to hide Jews from the authorities in Nazi Germany, but in this case the good thing would have been to ignore the law. -- Chris Q 07:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

"The best answer" is something for you to decide as you finish your essay ;).

If you are defining "good" with reference to others you will find ample historcical backing for a "yes" (see ethic of reciprocity). "Good as right" could also be taken as (a very much simplified) expression of utilitarianism.

You should probably also look at Goodness and evil and Enlightened self-interest (the last is a rather weak page unfortunately). Marskell 10:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• dunno,but truth is beauty(hotclaws**== 10:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC))

Merthyr rising 1831

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

why did William Crawshay the ironmaster try to stop the workers from rioting?

Because he was a rich industrialist in the area? He did write an account of the riots The Late Riots at Merthyr Tydfil. MeltBanana 21:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Lord Franklin

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Jane Griffin (Lady Franklin), offered a reward of £10,000 for information as to the fate of her husband's expedition in search of the North West Passage. Did anyone ever receive the reward? 86.135.35.146 11:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The Canadian Encyclopedia [35] states that John Rae was given this award in 1854. See the article for fuller details. --Jaslib 18:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Lord Franklin should redirect to John Franklin, but I can't create pages. 64.122.245.143 00:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It does now. Good song by Pentangle, too, IIRC. Grutness...wha? 10:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes but by Martin Carthy first. The song about Franklin that came to my mind was by Stan Rogers. Rmhermen 01:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

St John the Baptist.

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to check this for me. We are having a discussion on St John the Baptist and the quote "I am that I am" is said to be attributed to him. Having checked my bible in the Gospel of St John, and a quick look through the Gospel of St Luke is there any other place I can look or do you know who this quote is attributed to in the very first instance.

Thank you in anticipation. Mags

Magal, 2002, aAre you thinking of the First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 15:10)? Or perhaps Exodus 3:14 where this is said by God to Moses? --Shantavira 15:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Shantavira is right: "I am that I am" is what God says to Moses. We have almost no quotes from the baptist in the Bible. Geogre 18:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

John the Baptist did say a few things, but the only place in the Bible the the phrase "I AM that I AM" is found is Exodus 3:14: "And God said unto Moses, I AM that I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." Katrina 20:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Jews in tennis

I seek an email address for Encyclopedia Judaica, or any other way to communicate with them. They have a section on "Jews in Tennis & Squash" which is very incomplete and needs editing. I will appreciate your help. Please respond to <--email address removed-->. Thank you.

Did you try going to their website and clicking on "contact us"? --Shantavira 17:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

help!!!!!!!!!

Jeremy Hyett 16:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)When did canada and australia become seperate from the britsh empire of 1920

Dominion AnonMoos

1920 ? --DLL 21:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Name that tune

Going crazy trying to recall the name of this composition. Very well known so someone should get it easy. Here's the intro (or something) in cheapo notation:

      Db          Db          Db    
C C C    C, C C C    C, C C C    C,                                                C
                                    Bb Bb
                                          Ab,           Ab Ab Ab       Ab       Ab
                                              G  G               G        G          G G
                                                   F F,            F F      F F
                                                  

¦ Reisio 16:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you upload a file of you humming it, for those of us who can't read music notation?

Ok, you can't read music, but you can type those letters there and hear (a Db is the black note before the D, marked #C) The air tells me nothing. --DLL 21:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The Barber of Seville. It's on the list of classical pieces used in cartoons. —Keenan Pepper 01:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify that answer a little bit it is part of the overture to the opera, and is played by violins and violas with a cello and woodwind accompaniment. --Wisden17 19:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. :) It's sad, but before I posted I actually checked exactly that, but I was too impatient to wait apparently two entire minutes to see if it was in there. :p ¦ Reisio 21:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

viking school

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

can wikipedia guys write a short article about the viking school? its located in viking, alberta, canada.

Generally, Wikipedia only lists famous schools. So unless something is notable about your school, no. BUT if there is something notable, you can always register on Wikipedia and start the article yourself. Emmett5 23:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, but you can write something about your school (and other things local) at the Viking, Alberta article.--Pharos 05:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Be sure to name it appropriately and to satisfy all elements of the deletion policy. Otherwise, it will probably be deleted. If the school is notable in itself, then it should be ok. If it's just another school doing the things schools do, probably not. (Now, if it were a Viking school.... "Class, pay attention! This is how you slaughter the monk holding the psalter without getting blood on the gold you're taking." "And now Harald will demonstrate the proper way of wearing the bear-sark and going berserk.") Geogre 13:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Generally, Wikipedia only lists famous schools Since when? WP:SCHOOL. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's not policy, and the matter is not settled. Make an article on Anonymous Public School, and it could well be on AfD the same day. If you want to be safe, make sure the school has something about it that's worth knowing, and not just a Yellow Pages entry. Geogre 18:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Although I am all for deleting schools which fail notability, there is an organized "we shall keep all schools regardless of the content of the article" movement which immediately marshalls and votes keep on all school AfDs. I am not advocating such a position, merely indicating its unfortunate existence. User:Zoe|^(talk) 18:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry, Zoe. I'm just still furious about those people, and I see now that you were being a bit bitter in your comment, too. "Movements" to ensure that "every article" of any sort seem to me to be counter to reference works of any sort. There is no "every" that is valid, IMO, or yours, I gather, and so the partisanship that leads people to such unnatural positions is poison to the body. Geogre 11:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

British Religion

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Which council of 664AD accepted Catholicism as the religion of Britain?

I asked which council of 664AD accepted Catholicism as the religion of Britian? I was re[lied to by Gareth rather tersely I think. As a first time user of this site I did try searching first but could not find what I was after. Please Gareth either answer of perhaps think that the person enquiring could be a novice to the site.

LMany thanks

[email removed to prevent spam]

Try typing 664 in the searchbox (or simply click on "it" as I have provided a link) it will lead to a page which describes the main events of that year, one of which is the Synod of Whitby, which seems to me to be what you are looking for. Flamarande 20:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for taking time to reply -

oil business - advisor . consultant

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I am looking for a petroleum adviser or consultant to assist me with my trade leads. I have found thousands of trade leads for oil and oil by - products. I need someone , who would help me put the deals together. Is there anyone who would assist me? Thanks, <-- email removed -->

cities

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

can anyone give me information on what the rating is for csi: crime scene investigation as of 2006 so far?

Rating as in number of viewers, or in terms of age rating? Road Wizard 23:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

To cover all bases:

• Recent episodes of CSI were age rated TV-14 in the American system, with the V for violence tag on presumably every episode, and the other three depending on the content of the episode; this maps to 14+ in Canada.
• In terms of number of viewers, CSI pulled in 25.2 million viewers on average, which slipped them to 3rd place in the ratings overall, behind the Tuesday and Wednesday showings of American Idol.
• Or you may be wondering in terms of episode quality rating, season 6 seems to have done fairly well; the viewers at tv.com have given five of the top ten places to season 6, and 15 of the 24 episodes place in the top 50 of all time. Of course, no season is perfect, the recent rap-centric Poppin' Tags is the sixth worst of all time, despite (because of?) the Method Man cameo.
• Of course, you may be wondering how CSI ranks in the critics' rating; there the news is not so rosy, where the only Best Of 2005 top ten list to feature CSI was that of the USA Today critic (no comment), who put them 9th. And I still don't get what any of this has to do with cities? --ByeByeBaby 06:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

amps

hi, i was wondering which rock band or music artist of any kind in rock music is said to be the loudest on stage. its said to be ozzy osbourne or the who but i think otherwise.

Spinal Tap's go up to 11... ;) AnonMoos 22:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

No fair, I was going to say that! Anyway, I believe the current record-holder is Manowar (band), with 129dB, above the hearing threshold of pain (see here for details). Ziggurat 03:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Just reread your question and noticed that you specified rock music; that one I don't know, although The Who are described on this webpage as the loudest. Ziggurat 03:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Out of interest, why don't you class Manowar as rock music? Anyway, Swans were also one of the loudest, although our article doesn't give a dB level for them. --Richardrj 04:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't presume to speak for Ziggurat, but perhaps it's due to an inclusive versus exclusive definition of rock music, where (inclusively) you mean Rock music as in the entire spectrum of post-1950s electric-guitar-based musical movement and (exclusively), "rock music" can also mean something more akin to classic rock or active rock (i.e. Stones, Aerosmith, Floyd and so on up to the White Stripes) where specific subcultures (particularly, for this question, punk and heavy metal) are considered entirely seperate.---ByeByeBaby 15:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

edit conflict According to a couple sources [36] [37] The Who holds the Guinness world record for a 1974 show at 126 decibles. This source [38] says it is Deep Purple but doesn't give a decible. Wikipedia lists the Who at 130 Decibles but doesn't source it. Another unsourced statement [39] says 150 Decibles has been reached in America but doesn't say who. I saw another report that gave 140 dB but again did not source. There was a court case against the smashing pumpkins where a fan claimed hearing loss due to 125 dB music. This [40] claims that fan cheers at one concert were recorded at 128.8 dB. It is probably an impossible question now as there are quite a few bands that play around at that upper end from 120dB to 130dB. Pain starts to kick in at 120 dB so I don't see anybody going much above what they are now or you would have fans rolling in the aisles. Nowimnthing 03:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Disaster Area :) Seriously, I doubt there's any ISO standard procedure for measuring rock band sound levels - do you measure them from 5 centimetres from the speakers? --Robert Merkel 05:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I also severly doubt there's a standard procedure for that kind of stuff...it also depends quite a bit on the stage, the sound setup in use and the stage technicians. I've been to a number of rock and metal shows over the years, I've seen Slayer, Motörhead, Sepultura etc, but the only show that was so loud it was definitely past the pain threshold was Eric Clapton back in 1992. -- Ferkelparade π 11:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't been to an arena show since I was 1975, but I've been to a great many shows. Postage stamp sized stages, clubs that were converted from garages or supermarkets or strip-teases, and the performance that I actually went outside to hear (because it was too painfully loud inside) was Hüsker Dü in 1982. With concrete walls, cement floor, and low ceiling, in a club that was just an alley with a bar at one end, it was excruciating. Geogre 03:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Elizabeth Fretwell

The great Australian operatic soprano Elizabeth Fretwell died "on the weekend" of 3-4 June. She was extraordinarily reticent about self-promotion (which may help to explain why there's no WP article on her). Characteristically, her death has barely been reported at all - I've found only one vague reference to it on Google. Does anybody know her exact date of death? JackofOz 22:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Surprisingly, there are zero articles about her at news.google.com. The only thing I could find relevant was a posting on Opera-L, which isn't really verifiable. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

ancient rome quote

What's that quote about how the young generation is going to the dogs, values are in decline, people have no respect for their elders, no morals etc, the punchline is that it is some ancient roman dude? Thanks!

I believe you're talking about one of these, yes? Ziggurat 03:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe you're referring to the famous phrase "O Tempores! O Mores!"... uttered by the master of rhetoric himself: Cicero. 82.131.188.130 23:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC).

I think that was "O tempora! O mores!". JackofOz 00:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• Young people of today,can't even get their Latin quotes right!*sighs and goes back to knitting*(81.136.157.206 06:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC))hotclaws**==

June 16

Hypothetical questions about copyright law

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a couple questions about copyright law. It need not be confined to U.S. law.

1. If an artist dies before completing a work, can it be protected by copyright law as though it were complete? For instance, if a famous author created a plot or several chapters of a book, but never finished it, would it be treated as a finished work?

2. This next question is more abstract. If an author finished, say, nine of ten chapters of a book, but left the final chapter unwritten (but its content strongly implied), could another author write the final chapter and make money from it, perhaps by selling it as a "companion" to the unfinished work? Or would copyright law prevent this? Are the implications of the author protected by copyright? Bhumiya (said/done) 00:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Answers: 1. You can copyright just about anything if its more than a few sentences long. My science teacher regularly coprights the lab worksheets he rights.

2. I don't know, sorry. Emmett5 03:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For 1., see Copyright#Obtaining and enforcing copyright. There's no necessity for a work to be finished before it is copyrighted; under most laws the copyright comes automatically with the act of writing it.

For 2., yes, copyright law typically prevents this as a derivative work unless it's a satire (see Fanfiction#Legal issues in the United States and abroad).

Please note that I'm not a lawyer, so if it's a real legal issue you should talk to someone who knows what they're talking about :) Ziggurat 03:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

These are very interesting questions. For an account of a remarkably similar scenario, check out Franz Kafka's The Trial. Kafka actually died before completing this work, which nonetheless is seen by most as his masterpiece. In fact, as is not entirely unusual for many artists, he utterly despised everything that he wrote, and explicitly instructed his good friend Max Brod to burn all of his unpublished works upon his death.

Kafka then died and Brod was faced with an incredibly difficult dilemma: What was worse? To follow Kafka's ridiculous instructions and deny the world this literary masterpiece? Or to ignore what was basically the last will and testament of a dead man concerning the disposition of his own rightful property? Fortunately for all of us, Brod chose the latter, despite the moral ambiguity of his choice.

(In fact, this question seems a bit too similar to the scenario discussed above concerning Kafka. Is the questioner perhaps entertaining the thought of writing the final chapters of The Trial that Kafka never got around to finishing, and then trying to copyright it? I know, I know, assume good faith, assume good faith, assume good faith...I think I'll have those three words tatooed on my forehead. After all, these must surely be purely hypothetical questions). Loomis51 21:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No, nothing so sinister. I was just wondering about the limitations of intellectual property law. I was imagining what might happen if a major contemporary author, e.g. Philip Roth or Salman Rushdie, began writing a novel, but never finished it. Even if the unfinished work were copyrighted, which it no doubt would be, the story would be left open. What would prevent an enterprising author from writing a veiled conclusion to the novel, wrapping up the themes but not actually using the original names of the characters, etc? Eventually someone starts a rumor about the nature of the novel, which creates interest, and the rest you can imagine for yourself. The work is certainly derivative, but if it is derived only from the themes of the original unfinished work, which are arguably universal, then how can the author be prosecuted? Probably not an issue of pressing import, but there we are. Bhumiya (said/done) 22:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No worries, Bhumiya, I pretty much knew you weren't planning anything like that. I just tend to have this incorrigible cynical streak that always seems to question the motivation behind a question. It's actually gotten me into a bit of a mess here at Wiki, but I digress.

What you're talking about is actually a very interesting theme in the philosophy of IP (Intellectual Property) law. On the one hand, all art is derivative. Name me one love story that wasn't inspired, to at least some degree, albeit probably unintentionally, indirectly and completely unconsciously, to Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet.

But Shakespeare's been dead for centuries, and as such there is no copyright violation in reproducing his works. Contemporary authors, however, are a completely different story.

When it comes to contemporary artists, the law is at best rather vague and arbitrary. For example, in music, I believe there are a certain number of "bars" that you can legally reproduce from a copyrighted piece of music into a new piece. Some other areas are a bit fuzzy. Are you familiar with the legal mess that George Harrison got into when one of his songs, My Sweet Lord, was determined to be too similar to another song by the Chiffons and therefore a copyright infringement? IP is a very fuzzy area of law, and I honestly couldn't give you a definite answer as to how a court would react to your scenario. Sorry that I couldn't be of much help in actually answering the question, but I hope I at least gave you something of an understanding of basic IP law. Loomis51 00:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, this is all very helpful. I was just curious as to whether such a situation had come up. Thanks for the responses! Bhumiya (said/done) 06:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

If God exists

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Question moved here from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science by JackofOz

If God exists and the Jews are indeed God's chosen people, why did he allow his people to suffer and almost be wiped out during the holocaust? Why didn't he choose to smite the Nazis? --84.65.185.138 00:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

God doesn't exist.  :-) -Quasipalm 00:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If Santa Claus knows who's naughty and who's nice, why does everyone (except Jews, Muslims, etc.) get Christmas presents? (Cj67 00:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC))

Test of faith? If you have ever read the old testament, you will know that God can be a bit of a bastard to his 'chosen people' like that. I suppose that you *could* argue that God smote Hitler with madness and delivered the Nazis into the hands of their enemies... --Kurt Shaped Box 00:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This is in essence the problem of evil; why does evil exist in a world with an omniscient, omnipotent God? There are many proposed explanations. Some people believe it has to do with free will; that is, we have free will to choose our path. In this philosophy, God could control any or all of us, but in a sense, this is "boring", animating people is like playing with a doll's house. Giving people free will and letting them interact and evolve is far more "interesting". This philosophy tends to a posit a god who interferes little with humanity or the universe, but is more of a creator-turned-spectator. — Knowledge Seeker দ 00:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a question that science can answer. You would do better to ask a theologian or a philosopher. —Bkell (talk) 01:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Or play Black & White... -- Миборовский 01:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah... I really don't think this question ahs ANY scientific value... Try humanities, or talk to a Rabbi or a philosopher. Political Mind 01:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that God should prevent "evil" things happening and allow only "good" things to happen? Who told you that that is the way God operates, or should operate? Why do you have such human expectations of an intrinsically non-human being? If you accept there is an omnipotent, omniscient and eternal being who created the entire universe, how can you simultaneously question the infinite wisdom of such a being? I'm reminded of King Alfonso IX (dubbed "The Wise") who said "Had I been present at the creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe". (Nice one, Al). Just as learning cannot occur without mistakes, justice cannot exist without injustice, at an individual level and at a societal level. That is not to condone or rationalise away any injustices that have ever been done to the Jews or any other society, but to realise there is a divine purpose behind everything. Not just the things we'd like there to be a divine purpose behind, but everything without exception. (Thus endeth today's lesson.) JackofOz 01:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

So, what is the divine purpose behind the holocaust? And why can't justice occur without injustice? --Bowlhover 03:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I never claimed to know what the divine purpose of anything is. I just believe there is one. It makes life worth living. Without injustice, there would be no need to make the distinction between the 2 concepts. Things would just be as they are, neither just nor unjust. It's only because injustice occurs that humans then perceive a need for justice. In that sense, justice defines itself out of our primordial egoic yearnings. A world that is always just would be like the Garden of Eden before the fall, or Utopia. Not only boring, but destined not to stay that way. That's the thing about humans. We create the seeds of our own destruction, but we are also the agents of our own salvation. "We are blended creatures, half-abject and half-divine". JackofOz 08:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Um...this isn't science. Where would a question like this go? --M1ss1ontomars2k4 ^{(T | C | @)} 04:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Questions of classification, nomenclature and taxonomy are of great important to science. (lol) JackofOz 06:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Question I always want an answer for is, if God is omniscient, then he knows exactly what the consequences of his actions and words are. He knew when he told Adam 'Don't touch that fruit' that saying it in that way (incidentally to someone with no concept of right or wrong) would lead to him eating the fruit. He would also (being omnipotent and omniscient) know a way of wording it such that Adam had completely free will, but would choose not to exercise it in this case. If God is all powerful, he effectively manipulated events to make Adam break the rule he gave him. God's a bastard. What have I missed? Skittle 09:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you believe the story in Genesis is literally true, Skittle? It's no more literally true than creating the world on Day 3 and creating the fish on Day 5 and the land animals on Day 6. There's no point using an obviously made up myth to prove that God is a bastard. Besides, God couldn't be a bastard because he'd need parents who weren't married. Not only didn't he have unmarried parents, he didn't have parents at all. He created himself out of nothing (mystery 1), but at no particular time (mystery 2), and yet he has always existed (mystery 3) and always will (mystery 4). You can't apply human concepts of morality to God and expect him to conform. He's pulling the strings, not us. JackofOz 10:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well of course I don't. But some people do, and they must have an answer that satisfies them. Personally I think the whole concept of free will is a jip if you've got an omnipotent, omniscient god involved. But then I think free will is a jip anyway, so let's leave it at that... The question is really directed at people who a) believe Genesis is literally true b) believe Adam and Eve's actions were a 'fall' c) believe in an omniscient, omnipotent god d) have thought about this sort of thing. Of course, if someone else knows what their standard response is to this sort of thing, that would do too. Skittle 10:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Back to the original question, and if you really want to believe in God (and who am I to stop you?) then the Biblical/Tanakh Book of Job might provide a plausible piece of reasoning. Grutness...wha? 10:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, great. We get everyone who wants to make fun of religion. Wonderful. For the question itself, remember the Talmud: "On the sufferings of the virtuous or the prosperity of the wicked, we can say nothing." Let's start, though, by realizing that death cannot be an evil for the pious. If it were, then all humanity would be an example of wickedness, as all persons are fated to die. Second, death occurring early or late must not be, from a cosmic point of view, a sign of justice or injustice. Third, the sufferings of the Elect are pain and unjust in human terms and yet, in a larger sense, may not be. Fourth, God did smite the Nazis. They're not running the world now, are they? Fifth, demanding that only the evil suffer and the good to always prosper is to insist on a world where, for example, any poor person would be wicked and any wealthy person would be favored by God. Sixth, if God has never made the material conditions of the virtuous reflect their spiritual worth in such a minor and obvious way as bank balance, then why would you presume to judge God's will in history by the sufferings of the holocaust? Geogre 12:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've got plenty of ideas on the subject, but no need to worry, people. I won't DARE touch this question! I've learnt my lesson! Loomis51 21:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you are looking for Problem of evil. DJ Clayworth 19:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

See theodicy or, more specifically, Holocaust theology, which came about as an attempt to reconcile the events of the Holocaust with Jewish theology. But if you want my opinion, the concept of God is incoherent and self-contradictory. God is a square triangle, a married bachelor, a teapot orbiting Mars, a known existence without a known essence, a cluster of incompatible epithets and abstract superlatives. The persecution of Jews is an all-too-human problem, just like the persecution of Kurds, Ainu, infidels, queers, etc. It's sociological, not celestial. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I can't help it, here's my two cents: Yes the concept of "God" is an incredibly incomprehensible one. It's full of paradoxes, such as the omnipotence paradox etc... Put simply, God, should s/he exist, is simply beyond our tiny primate brains to comprehend.

But, at the same time, should we turn to science for some more rational, comprehensible answers to those same mysteries of the universe, we inevitably run into a series of remarkably similar paradoxes, such as: If the universe "began" with the "Big Bang", what was going on the day before? If the universe is ever expanding but of a finite area, should one somehow reach the end of the universe, what exists one foot beyond that ultimate end to space as we know it? The most likely scientific answer to both of these questions would simply be "nothingness".

I realize that "God" may be a concept that is quite simply beyond our meagre human minds to grasp, but, at the same time, I would argue, so is the completely incomprehensible concept of "nothingness". Just as Bhumiya describes the concept of God, "nothingness" can equally be described as "incoherent and self-contradictory. ["Nothingness"] is a square triangle, a married bachelor, a teapot orbiting Mars etc...

In MY opinion, atheism is actually remarkably similar religion. Both consist of the belief in the unprovable. The religious firmly believe in the ultimately unprovable existence of God, while atheists firmly believe in the ultimately unprovable concept that God does not exist. Both are beliefs in the unprovable. In MY opinion, (though I personally am not an agnostic), the natural "scientific" position on the existence or non-existence of God is agnosticism. Science simply has no proof either way. Loomis51 01:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

God is not responsible for the actions of people, he is not a divine scapegoat, someone you can always turn to and say "why the fuck did you let that happen". If thats is your view, that is a very selfish take on things. Philc _T^E_C^I 23:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Loomis51, you misunderstand the Big Bang and should read up before making comments. The universe is space and time. There is no "day before the big bang" because time didn't exist the way it does now. Also, since the universe by definition is all inclusive, it's not expanding into space, space itself is expanding. The theory of the big bang creates some difficult questions, but it's no where as messy as the theory of god. -Quasipalm 00:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, Quasipalm, I totally misunderstand the Big Bang theory. In fact I'd even go further to say that I'm incapable of fully understanding the concept, and I probably never will be, no matter how much I read up on it (yes I've read the wiki article, but to no avail, it's simply beyond my grasp). Apparently your intellect is greater than mine on this area, as you seem to be able to fully grasp the concept of a "period", (for lack of a better term,) when "time didn't exist as it does now", but I simply cannot. Also, with regards to the expanding universe, I never said that the universe is expanding into space. That would be a rather easy concept to understand. Quite the opposite. Space is a void. What "exists" (or doesn't "exist" for that matter) beyond that void, is even more difficult to comprehend. Essentially it's not simply a void as simple space is, but a void devoid of void. Perhaps it's all crystal clear to you, but for me it's all too completely incomprehensible of a mess for my tiny primate brain to grasp. My point remains the same. If we (excluding those of us who claim to understand them so clearly) are willing to somehow accept the concept of these "incomprehensibles", I just think it's rather presumptuous of us to dismiss the possibility of yet another "incomprehensible", that being, the existence of a Supreme Being. Loomis51 10:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

People sometimes use the holocaust as some sort of argument against the existence of God. "Bad things" are in enormous abundance all around us all the time (maybe we should start a list on Wikipedia). So let's not get hung up on one particular "bad thing" (ok, to some people, the worst thing). It's not that bad things happen, that's a given - it's what we do about them that matters. That's why Victor Frankl's message is eternal. "Man's search for meaning" is what we're all here for. If nothing else, that was one "very good thing" to come from the holocaust. JackofOz 00:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That is like the question why does God let bad things happen good people. The reason why is because God gives people free will. With free will unfortunatly some will do extremely evil things.

Wayne Wilcox

Does anybody have any information on Wayne Wilcox, American actor/singer? I checked the article, and it was only a stub. If someone could expand it... Political Mind 00:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

k. 175

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Okay, this is a weird question, but is Mozart's 5th piano concerto, k. 175, considered one of his forgettable immature works? KeeganB

It is fairly famous, I am very familiar with it. However, he does have more famous works, definetely. Political Mind 01:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not forgettable, but it's not great music either. However it is interesting as being the first of his piano concertos that was all his own work, ie. it wasn't an arrangement of the music of other composers. I suppose if the catalogue of his works was being redone from scratch, it would be renamed Piano (or Keyboard) Concerto No 1. JackofOz 08:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and when you also separate out the concertos for 2 pianos and 3 pianos, the number of Mozart's concertos for solo piano that were original works turns out to be 21 (not 27). Still a healthy number. Is this a record for piano concertos? JackofOz 00:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

How to log in

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I tried to set up an account. I was asked for my user name and a password. I tried to do this but apparently my user name was inappropriate! What did I miss. Thanks, Harry M. Mahn

Information on usernames (including which are inappropriate and why) can be found here. You may also want to check Help:Logging in. Ziggurat 01:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Now you've got me curious. If you told us the name maybe we can explain why it was considered "inappropriate". I'm assuming, since you were apparently very surprised from the response you got, that the name you chose wasn't vulgar or offensive. Of course this may be personal or sensitive information and you have every right to keep it private. If you don't want to reveal the name I fully understand. (Nonetheless, I'm so curious!...pleeeeease? lol) Loomis51 20:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the original contributor, but I can say that Wikipedia has a username policy that prohibits account names that use terms like "hacker" or "vandal", names that could be easily mistaken for another user, names that are identical to celebrities, and names that seem to advertise a particular company or product. There are other restrictions as well, but you get the idea. --Tachikoma 13:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Queston: German POWs held in France after WW I

I have heard German soldiers held as POWs during WW I were held on after that war to do labor as part of German reparations to France.

I have tried to find out more on this subject but am unable to do so.

Do you know anything about this subject?

KingArt

Information

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Dear Sir/Madam I am currently researching Reynold Alleyne Nicholson's work on Rumi's Masnavi (done in eight volumes, published between 1925-1940). Could you please send me any information concerning this work, if you have, or show me where I can give the information about R.A. Nicholson and his work. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I could find only some words about him.

Thanks in advance Manizha

Here is a bibliographic reference to this work: The Mathnawí of Jalálu'ddín Rúmí, edited from the oldest manuscripts available, with critical notes, translation and commentary by Reynold A. Nicholson, in 8 volumes, London: Messrs Luzac & Co., 1925–1940. Contains the text in Persian. First complete English translation of the Mathnawí. The book is still in print: [41] [42], although it is not quite clear what one will get for one's money: one cover mentions books III and IV, the other books V and VI. But this: [43] is probably complete. Does this answer your question? If not, could you please be more specific about the kind of information you are looking for? --Lambiam^Talk 14:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Music: Chamillionaire's association with Motown Records

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I answered my own question. Chamillionaire is a Universal Records artist sold under the Motown imprint. I'm off to change the Wiki article.

Source 1 Source 2

Excellent. --Proficient 11:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Ich bin ein Berliner

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does anybody know of a website where they have video or audio of JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech?

This page has copies of a number of important speeches: http://durov.com/speeches.htm, and the one you are looking for is here: http://www.rechi.ru/jfkberlinaddress.mp3 You can find more information on it here: http://apella.ac-limoges.fr:16080/lyc-perrier-tulle/europ/history/dochist/speeches/term/JFK_berlin.htm --Valentinian ^(talk) 08:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Twin Cities

This section was vandalised by 204.50.48.150 at 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Madame/ Sir

I've been recently researching the life of Vlad III Tepes, Prince of Wallachia, and I've come across the article of Târgoviste, Wallachia's Capital. On that article I found reference to the expressions "Twin Cities". The article refers to several Twin Towns as an example and although I've already researched the term "Twin Cities" I couldn't find a relation between the examples given in the Târgoviste article and the meaning of the expression "Twin Cities". Can You clarify the meaning for me please?

Thank you Diogo Vieira Neves

In this context, a twin city is the same as a "sister city". It normally means that the two cities have official visits and cultural exchanges from each other from time to time. Apart from local politicians; school classes or musical bands are also favourites to be sent to the other town. Very often, the arrangement also means that local politicians try to find possible trading partners for their own industries / factories in the other town. You can read more at Town twinning. The idea became a European trend following World War II, as a way of establishing peaceful contacts to other cultures / old enemies. A pretty new idea at the time. The European Union runs a programme to support such initiatives. Valentinian ^(talk) 13:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Civil Rights-American Political Movements

I am searching for the origin and connotation of step'nfetch it. Perhaps Uncle Tom's Cabin. I know the general meaning. Thanks--- The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.238.217.204.

I believe it began as a character on a radio show. Geogre 12:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Stepin Fetchit was an African American actor who played many stereotypical roles in early Hollywood. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What precise date were two 1974 albums released

I am trying to track down the precise release date for two songs that were both released _sometime_ in 1974. One is "Bad Detective" by New York Dolls (from their album Too Much Too Soon. The other is "Kung Fu Fighting" by Carl Douglas which was a #1 single. Both use a musical phrase known as the Asian Riff. My question is-- which of these two songs came first? Obviously, recording or composition date for each song would be ideal, but I'll settle for release date. How do you find the release date for 1974 songs? --Alecmconroy 13:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What you need is the archives of the record charts. You say that Kung Fu Fighting was a No.1 single, so you need to find out what date it was in the charts. Then do the same for the New York Dolls album, if it made the charts that is. I've just found Hot 100 number-one hits of 1974 (USA), which shows that Kung Fu Fighting was at #1 on Dec 7. As you say, though, it may have been written and recorded months earlier.

I doubt that the complete album charts are available online, because people like Billboard (and Guinness in the UK) make money by selling their books. So the New York Dolls date might be trickier to track down, unless you look in a book. --Richardrj 13:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Aha-- well, making progress. Thanks for the Dec 7 info. Now I just need the album chart- hopefully someone who has the book will turn up.--Alecmconroy 16:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

passports

How long does it usually take to renew an expired passport?

In the U.S., several weeks, I think -- but you can pay extra for expedited processing. AnonMoos

In the UK, it seems to depend on the season you submit your request: over the summer season, it can take as long as three months (although there is a fast-track service). EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 14:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Trainspotting (Irvine Welsh book) - language question

I know this seems like a trivial matter, but i was just wondering as to what scottish people mean by the word 'Draftpak' which crops uf frequently in Irvine Welsh's novel Trainspotting. It seems to be a container for carrying beer, but the characters also refer to people they don't like and consider beneath them as 'Draftpaks' so I was hoping someone would clear up the meaning(s) of the word for me. thank you very much.

Moved question to language reference desk. EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 13:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Revealed Knowledge of the Prophecies and Times by Nathaniel Brassey Halhed dated 1794

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Dear Sir/ Madam

I have a book written by Nathaniel Brassey Halhed dated 1795. The title of this book is Revealed knowledge of the Prophecies and Times and Restoration of the Hebrews.

This appears to be an original book judging by the appeareance of the paper and of the cover, it is in good condition and legible.

Would you be able to tell me anything about his book?

Its value and perhaps who might be interested in it.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

regards, Claudia

Start by looking at Nathaniel Brassey Halhed. As far as your book goes, what it's worth is what people are prepared to pay for it. I looked him up on a couple of rare book websites, and there was no mention of your book, but others by him seem to go for anything between $200 and $1000. So you might have a valuable item on your hands. --Richardrj 14:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure it is not this book: A REVEALED KNOWLEDGE OF THE PROPHECIES AND TIMES, Book the First, wrote under the direction of the LORD GOD and published by His Sacred Command, it being the first sign of Warning for the benefit of All Nations; Containing with other great and remarkable things not revealed to any other Person on Earth, the Restoration of the Hebrews to Jerusalem by the year of 1798 under their revealed Prince and Prophet. London, Printed in the year of Christ 1794., which was allegedly written by Richard Brothers? As to the value, next to the rarity, a lot depends on the condition of the book, and even for a ballpark assessment you will need appraisal by an expert. --Lambiam^Talk 17:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

heaven

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Hey. If there's a heaven and hell, what do you believe? do you believe that if ur good you go to heaven because u had a good life or u go to hell because now its the opposite turn. u had a good life and now deserve a bad...? and plus, on wikipedia its not physically described but is maybe true how heaven is the place of not only peace but luxury and dreams?

We believe. Everyone believes in something.

That depends on your definition of belief. I know of at least one philosopher who regards the concept of belief as invalid. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For myself, I do believe. Plenty of things. And I discover what is good or bad for my brothers and sisters everyday. For the moment being, I don't believe in a heavenly retaliation nor care for heaven, but who knows ? --DLL 18:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe in either, but anything's possible. --Alex.dsch 18:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No, only possible things are possible. Obviously contradictory things aren't possible. ("An object whose existence prevents its existing or having ever existed"). 82.131.188.130 23:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC).

I am not sure, but isn´t a Christian supposed to admit that he is a sinner, beg forgiveness for his sins, accept the love and forgiveness of Jesus, worship and love God, BEFORE he can go to heaven? Your name has to written down in a "book of the good guys". Good deeds are suposedly simply not enough. Flamarande 20:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. There's always sola fide. Personally, I agree with the great Epicurus:

Death is nothing to us; for that which has been dissolved into its elements experiences no sensations, and that which has no sensation is nothing to us.

So as I see it, it's not a question of "where you go", but what you do with the time you have. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The Catholic position is that the sum total of all your good deeds throughout your life counts for nothing if you happen to commit a mortal sin and die without an act of contrition. Like the chain is only as strong as its weakest link. JackofOz 00:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, sort of. Their point is that what counts is whether you are in sin or not, that each sin requires contrition, confession, and forgiveness by Christ. If that seems difficult, the opposing side of perserverance of the saints is just as troubling. The "once saved always saved" has led some people (some in the news recently) to argue that they are, indeed, supposed to be judging "sinners" and giving them grief because, when Jesus said "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone," they are, indeed, without sin and therefore should throw stones. I wish I were joking about that, but I'm not. I think most theologians settle for what Paul and James both said: faith without deeds is no faith, and deeds without faith are just random actions. Therefore, at death it would be faith and deeds, but perhaps not a ledgered account or Father Guido Sarducci's fine system. Geogre 13:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Bah, and you need priests for what? Basicly its the old story of the carrot and the stick. Religions tell you that you have to do good deeds so you will get to heaven (good reincarnation in budhism) and frighten you with: "if you do bad deeds you will go to hell (bad reincarnation in budhism)". If someone really believes in this, and follows these guidelines because of these reward/punishment threats then he isn´t really doing it out the "kindness of his heart" or "because he is really a good person". He is doing it because he craves the reward and fears the punishment. Under a certain point of view such a person has the moral sense of the "proverbial donkey". People who do good deeds and don´t expect nothing in return are the persons who really matter. Flamarande 23:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

municipality

A comment in this section was altered by 204.50.48.150 at 15:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC). Though the damage has now been repaired, any comments left after that time may reflect the confusion caused by the damage and should be treated with caution. Road Wizard 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

What is the largest municipality in the world by area? Not metropolitan area but just the municipality?

This might be helpful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_size_%28area%29. --Proficient 11:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

JK31213: no actually that's still metropolitan areas. there's no way that city in australia is larger in area than tokyo or mexico city, as it appears on google earth.

i want just the municipality. urban area. Possibly mexico city.

June 17

Trying to remember a person

A while ago, I stumbled upon a Wikiquote article (there was one on Wikipedia, too) on a really interesting man. I think he was an officer in the American civil war who supported equal rights for women, was anti-slavery, very progressive. He was asked to run for governor of Illinois and refused because he was told he would have to pretend to be religious (he wasn't). A lot of his really interesting quotes were about religion and how belief in Hell was contrary to belief in a benevolent god. Does anyone know who he was? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Emmett5 (talk • contribs) .

You could look through Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Governor_of_Illinois and see if any of the article titles ring a bell for you.-gadfium 03:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Would that be Robert Green Ingersoll? --vibo56 ^talk 13:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Thank you very much! Emmett5 19:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Heresy in non-Abrahamic religions

It's common to hear about heresy in discussion of Christianity (e.g. Cathars, Gnosticism, Protestantism), Islam (e.g. Al-Muqanna, Nation of Islam, Ahmadiyya), and Judaism (e.g. Reconstructionism). I have never heard the word used in reference to Hinduism, Buddhism, or any animistic or polytheistic religions. Is this just a matter of terminology, or are Abrahamic religions especially dogmatic? Bhumiya (said/done) 06:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably the answer is "both." Revealed religions have non-negotiable sets of truths, and God, in Abrahamic religions, is the only God and demands the recognition of no others. Combine the solitary truth of revelation with the demand of purity, and you have a requirement to be pure and of one teaching (ortho-doxy). Additionally, though, "heresy" isn't used in religions that don't have a central structure that approves religious views (no Vatican, no council, no sanhedrin, etc.). At the same time, Buddhism has huge splits in it, and Hinduism is amazingly diverse. Were there a central authority (and some versions of these religions have central authorities), there would be condemnation of the others, but I doubt "heresy" would be used. Geogre 11:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The term is sometimes used in connection with Socrates' Trial, as in: The trial and condemnation of Socrates on charges of heresy and corrupting young minds is a defining moment in the history of Classical Athens.[44] And in the book A Survey of Hinduism by Klaus K. Klostermaier there is a chapter entitled "Hindu Dharma: Orthodoxy and Heresy in Hinduism".[45]. But of course the original context of the term is that of "orthodox" Christianity, and for something to be declared a heresy you need an authoritarian body safeguarding the purity of the one and only true belief, and therefore also a notion that there is such a thing as "the one and only true belief" in the first place.

Heresy is what the minority believe; it is the name given by the powerful to the doctrines of the weak. Robert Ingersoll

--Lambiam^Talk 15:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Postscriptum. Here is a lecture referring to heresy in "True Buddhism": [46]. --Lambiam^Talk 15:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course, neither Judaism nor Islam has a central religious authority, yet they have "heresy". Thanks for all the responses. I wasn't aware of the Hindu or Buddhist connections. Bhumiya (said/done) 15:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say "of course." Both have and have-had, depending on your sect and time. There is no "Vatican" in either, but that's a long way from saying that there isn't a long and well ordered system of ensuring orthodoxy. Geogre 15:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Feelings for ex-partners

I have feelings for 3 ex-partners, and given the right circumstances, would get back together with each one (not at the same time, of course). So my question is: how common is this? (ie feelings for more than one ex). Please note this is not a request for ways to get over them. 132.181.7.1 07:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Surely it's normal. Oftentimes you see divorced/separated folks get back together. --Proficient 11:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Extremely common. They (provided you weren't completely off your tree when you got together with them) obviously have at least some of the traits which you find desirable in a partner, so it's not surprising that you still find find yourself interested in them. --Robert Merkel 11:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Writing a story

Well, I'm just trying out to write a detective story , to get rid off the boring hours of my summer vacation, here in India.I do know i'm a layman for that matter, & don't expect anything brilliant. But a few questions are troubling me before i proceed any further . These are : #1. Can i use the name of any reputed hotel/restaurant/bar etc. as the venue, in my story ? Will it cause any problem if it's published in the college-magazine/little-mag etc.? #2. Suppose i mention an innovative way of drug-trafficking/murder in the story - can i be involved in any legal issues- now, or later? #3. Should i give preference to ethics over reality ? Thanking you,--[[User:Pupunwiki]] 07:08, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• The answers to #1 and #2 are probably "no big deal," if you have the standard "this is a work of fiction" disclaimer. At least in the US, dectective fiction is very commonly set in real places, and creative writing professors teach students to use as many actual brand names and locations as possible. (I disagree with that advice, but they don't let me near the writing students.) #3 is the interesting one. (You're about to find out why they don't let me near the writing students.) Essentially, you're asking Aristotle's questions from Poetics. Aristotle said that poetry (meaning all fiction) is superior to history because history merely tells us what happened, while poetry tells us what should or must happen. From this, and from Horace and Plutarch (Moralia) on the same subject, we ended up with the concept of poetic justice. The idea is that a greedy man will, in poetic justice, not prevail and that his downfall will be linked to his specific failure, to his greed. Modernism moved away from poetic justice because most Modernists felt that the world was too indifferent and the good too unknowable to dictate the fiction, and so most Modernists moved toward a different kind of poetic justice, a psychological poetic justice, where the external events may favor the vicious and punish the virtuous, but there would be a psychological vengeance, a psychological justice, one way or the other. Interestingly, detective fiction has always been the most conservative, morally. While everyone else wrote about an indifferent world and unrelenting suffering, most detective fiction (emphasis on "most," because not all) retained the literal poetic justice. The answer to #3, therefore, is "obeying ethics rather than reality will be more expected and palatable to readers, but obeying reality over ethics could be more rewarding." Geogre 12:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I would just advise that you not use the product or place in a bad light, or they may sue you, but if it's just setting, they probably wouldn't mind the free advertising. User:Zoe|^(talk) 21:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Or you could use a pseudonym. Bhumiya (said/done) 03:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

       Thanks a lot for your kind suggestions.                                  
  I reconsidered about mentioning the name of any famous hotel etc. 
       etc. in the story, & have decided not to do so. I think
       a disclaimer, really shatters a reader's enthu , to a great
       extent, though it serves my purpose. 
    Secondly, i am not intented to harm the good-will of the said
       public places, neither would i do any free advertising('cause
       i'm not so generous).
    As far as pseudonym is concerned, i don't think it would prove
       to be a great help , once investigators involve me in
       a legal suit(after all i'm the bearer of the pseudonym).
             Thanks again,--59.93.255.177 12:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

-Pupunwiki

Another problem about using the name of a famous hotel, etc. is that if someone were more familiar than you with the hotel was to read your story, they'd find themselves "taken out" of the story as soon as you made a factual error. If you wrote of, say a shootout in the lobby of the Yanggakdo Hotel, sending the massive crystal chandelier crashing onto the grand piano, and covering the floor with exotic tropical fish, when I read your story, I'd have a hard time paying attention to the details of the shootout, and spend more time thinking "Hey... there isn't a chandelier there, and there sure isn't a grand piano. And the only thing in the fish tank is a really bored and sad looking sea turtle. This chap has no idea what he's talking about." --ByeByeBaby 06:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia

what is the meanin og literature given by Henry van Dyke?

Portland, Oregon and palm trees

Do palm trees grow in Portland? If so, could someone show me any photos? Thanks. Un sogno modesto 08:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, Portland is too damp and cold for palm trees. They have more of a mediterranean climate, and a cool one at that, whereas palm trees prefer tropical and subtropical climates. According to our article on the Palm family, the northernmost palms grow at a latitude of 43 degrees in southern France; Portland is at 45.5 degrees. So the only palms in Portland would be growing inside, perhaps you might contact the Oregon Zoo. --ByeByeBaby 05:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

"Torbay palms" would be able to grow there (they're not real palms - they're a tree-like member of liliaceae, also known - in my part of the world - as Cabbage trees). Grutness...wha? 06:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

worldwide album and single sales

who has sold the most singles/albums worldwide? Elvis or Queen?

According to Guinness, The Beatles have sold the most physical albums, if this is what you mean. (link) Dar-Ape 21:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the questioner is referring to singles -- 45's. Elvis Presley had the record for singles sales, by a good margin. I suppose the question is whether Queen passed him or not. Geogre 11:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sabots/Clogs

What is the difference between a clog and a sabot?

None, except that the first word is English and the second is French. See sabot and clog. --Shantavira 11:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think you'll find that in Lancashire( My home) clogs were made with a thick wooden sole,often studded for longer wear in the wet conditions(see "Matchstick men",the song contains lines about the sparking the brads in the sole caused when used on cobbles) with a leather top,either buttoned or laced. They are still made today and very confortable and hard wearing they are too.I think the Dutch also have the leather topped clogs as well.There are sites on the web where people sell traditional clogs which have lots more info on this but I can't track down one just now....hotclaws(81.136.157.206 06:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC))
• I was once told the difference between a sabot and a clog, but I don't remember it. Is there anyone on Wikipedia who knows what it is? Wiwaxia 05:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect many use the words interchangably, but arguably, a sabot should have a strap across the instep, while a clog is characterized by its thick soles and probably lacks such a strap. - Nunh-huh 05:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Toccata

Listening to Sky (band)'s Toccata I was ceratin it was used as a soundtrack in a film or TV programme. Anyone know which one? -- SGBailey 14:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Body odor

Maybe an indelicate question, but I've wondered for a long time: Did almost everybody in history, up until the early 20th century, have terrible B.O.? Probably the working people did, but then, if they all did, maybe they didn't notice it. After all, fish don't know they're wet. But what about wealthy people? Did they just dab on some perfume before putting on their heavy wool clothes? Did men do this? Did wealthy people bathe several times a day? 66.213.33.2 15:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Read the article on Body odor, especially the part about social history. Furthermore, the growth of the bacteria producing the smell requires a certain permanency of a humid environment. When clothes (if any) are timely changed, aired and allowed to dry, and excess perspiration is regularly removed (not using the same stinking rag all the time!), there isn't that much of a problem. Then there's also the issue of what you're used to. Forget about the working people; wealthy people from Western "civilization" were most likely the worst big-time stinkers in history, because they wore the most clothes and were, if possible, more adverse to bathing. I'm not even touching on the itchy and yucky issue of wigs, under which they might hide something oozing perfume. In some religions (Islam) one is supposed to be clean when praying, something that definitely helps the olfactorily more sensitive people in one's environment to remain focussed on the prayers. --Lambiam^Talk 15:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Further, the sense of smell is the most easily fatigued (why you can't smell your own breath, unless it changes suddenly after eating something). That's why people who live in the shadow of a paper mill, for example, won't smell the sulfurous smell unless they go away and come back. Therefore, yes, people in, for example, 1710 London stank like crazy, and their city stank worse than they did, what with human waste flowing down the gutters to Fleet Ditch and then going out to the Thames, the people there probably couldn't smell it. According to quite a few sources, the practice of armpit and genital shaving was to reduce the surfaces of odiferous bacterial growth. (I'm skeptical about that, myself, as it can't explain leg shaving, for example, and probably has roots in a more psychological than sensory impulse.) Geogre 15:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Cool question, I always wondered this too... cause we now have a bunch of deodorants and perfumes which didn't exist then, and if they did, they where quite expensive... and also they wore all those heavy clothes of which they didn't have more than maybe 4 or 5 dresses cause they too where expensive...and they didn't have washing machines nor detergents nor perfumed soap...or anything... wow... I'm glad to have been born in the 80's! . --Cosmic girl 19:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Se also : Business Objects. --DLL 20:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

To augment what Lambiam was saying, clothing, prior to the 1830's or thereabouts, was most often worsted (wool), and it was not treated for washing. Therefore, one couldn't wash clothes very conveniently and have them fit again. After the advent of King Cotton, that changed, albeit slowly. For one thing, linen and hemp had been used before for clothes that were meant to be washed frequently, but these were "peasant" clothes as outer wear, and so cotton clothing was first associated with being like shifts and other underwear. Getting people to accept cotton as formal outer wear or as fancy dress wear has been a project going on up to the present day. (Think about formal clothing -- suits and dresses -- and how cotton is a "lesser" cloth compared to wool or linen.) Prior to widespread wool clothing, people wore leather, and that wasn't washable, either. Therefore, a fine dress or suit of clothes would be worn only until it was foul, and then it wouldn't be worn again. One historian estimated that nobles in England were spending 30% of their total income on clothes in the 1640's. Some of this was fashion, and nearly as much was utility. Geogre 21:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Indian Parliament seating plan?

Please explain the seating plan diagram of the Indian Parliament.--—Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.226.70.73 (talk • contribs)

We had a similar question a few days ago on June 6. You can find the answer to that question in our archives here. Road Wizard 23:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Looking for name or any info about a short story

I read a short story a couple years ago, and can't recall its name, the name of the book it was in, or the author's name. Any would be nice. All I remember about it (not much, but distinctive) is that it was a very, very strange story, probably best described as absurdist, that the Virgin Mary was a character in it, and that a few points in it where the word "bumped" was used, the letters were misaligned up and down to look as if the word itself was bumped. Strange, I know. Thanks for any help. -Goldom (t) (Review) 18:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Postmodernism

What is postmodernism's conception of a succesful person (or of succes in general)? Since modernism's idea of success is quite clear I think.( and I don't want to be answered that it is a hippieish,democrat,university philosophy prophesor..please... lol).--Cosmic girl 19:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is hard to get an unambiguous answer to this question; the postmodernist take would be that the notion of success is a social construct that is relative to one's (equally ambiguous) embedding in and relation to one's social context (like someone can be a successful science fiction author but a failure as a mainstream author). --Lambiam^Talk 01:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Lambian, but I would go a little further and say that postmodernism, in my experience, places far more importance on passive, subjective perception than on active, quantifiable achievement. To a hardcore postmodernist, "success" is associated with one's perspective and means of expression. However, postmodernism is more of a tendency within critical theory than a coherent ideology in its own right. Indeed, one noted characteristic of postmodernism is its incoherence and inconsistence.

Personally, I consider postmodernism irrational, duplicitous sophistry, vainly and cynically concerned with erudite obfuscation. It is (for its very survival) chronically disconnected from reality, as evinced by its disdain for anything clear and grounded, above all science and falsifiability. One might say the ultimate goal of postmodernism is to gain respect and disciples by affecting a comprehension of reality superior to that of the reader. In both its methods and applications, postmodernism is similar to theology. Indeed, I would say they are one and the same. Only their building materials differ. On a personal note, Cosmic Girl, if you have issues with religion, you ought to have issues with postmodernism as well. Postmodernism is religion and religion is postmodernism. Bhumiya (said/done) 04:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

"Postmodernism is religion and religion is postmodernism." I think there are some pretty substantial differences between the lump of academic philosophical positions which are usually called "postmodernism" and anything which resembles a coherent much less organized religion. Unless you consider all philosophy to be essentially "religion" (and therefore render the term "religion" empty), I don't see how you can claim that postmodernism "is religion" and that religion "is postmodernism". With your comments on clarity and obfuscation I think you're confusing Derrida with all of postmodernist thought (it is questionable whether Derrida was even "postmodern" at all). Personally I think it is telling that postmodern is so ill-defined that almost all people who use the term use it to attack views that almost nobody holds. --Fastfission 05:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

u know what Bhumiya... I really don't think what u say is right...since, postmodernism = death of truth and religion = impossing of a truth. --Cosmic girl 15:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that their concepts or specific techniques are the same, and of course postmodernism is far "richer" and more varied than any theological tradition. But both use obfuscation, hyperabstraction, and sophistry to intellectually overwhelm the reader. Both resort to irrationality to avoid being tested and found out. It is true that postmodernists detest religion, much as a hipster detests last year's fad. Religion and postmodernism are the same in their treatment of the truth: both elevate it beyond the audience, either by claiming it doesn't exist (postmodernism) or claiming it is "ineffable" (theology). Postmodernism is the same old hoary sophism, adapted and refined to survive alongside science. It coopts the language of science, much as theologians coopted the language of law and natural philosophy.

Caveat: I realize, of course, that no one agrees on exactly what postmodernism is. That's the point. It's a vaguely-defined miasma of irrationalism that pervades academia. Many legitimate Continental philosophers have been lumped into it, most notably Derrida and Foucault (both of whom explicitly denied being a part of it). By now, postmodernism has become somewhat cliché in its own right and has begun to function as an epithet. Few people "proclaim" it these days, but it still exists. For more on the struggle between science and postmodernism, look at our articles on the Sokal affair and Intellectual Impostures and take a moment to read Postmodernism Disrobed, an excellent review by Richard Dawkins. Bhumiya (said/done) 01:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

June 18

Which Film has been in production for over 20 years (and still filming)?

A few years ago I saw a BBC documentary about an ongoing British movie project where new scenes have been filmed every year for many years. There was also an interview with the lead (only?) actor, he was a famous British classical actor (in the style of Ben Kingsley, Anthony Hopkins, etc - but I can't remember who it was). The project appeared to be an independent/art type movie.

Psychonaut3000 01:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Flippant answer: The Anglo Saxon Chronicles: The movie! Geogre 03:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy took about twenty years to make, and killed Douglas Adams in the process, but for most of that time it was just a script, not actually being filmed. Tyrhinis 17:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The film Seven Up! is a British movie project that's been in production since 1964, but it's a documentary about 14 British children, first filmed at seven years of age and then revisited every seven years thereafter. --ByeByeBaby 05:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This was asked about a month ago. Noone knew then either. AllanHainey 09:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Publishing a book

Hello, I wrote a book and I am wandering how to do so. Can someone tell me the steps? And also can you answer the following questions?

1. In my book I have some pictures that are from other places and have copyrights on them, what is the exact precedure I have to take to be able to use that? Who do I have to ask for permission?
2. My book is non-fiction based on history and for some of the information with is very detailed I don't have an exact source because I read it a long time ago and can't find the book. Is that ok?
3. Does anyone know any good publishing companies and/or agents in Toronto?
4. What is the copyright office in Canada called?
5. Who would be intrested in reading a book about the complete history of Iran, from 3000 years ago until now?

Thanks a lot --(Aytakin) | Talk 01:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

1. Yes you need premission to use copyrighted images, and you probably have to pay a fee for their use. If you're able to find an agent and/or publishing house to take you on, they should be able to track down the copyright owners.

2. No, in a non-fiction book you need to state your sources, otherwise it won't be taken seriously.

3. Many American publishing houses have offices in Toronto, but send your manuscript to every publishing house and agent you can find. Make a list and start at the top, send it one publishing house at the time, if you get rejected, cross it off your list and send the manuscript to the next on the list. If you run out of names on your list, just start at the top again. Many successful authors have been rejected 30+ times before they where accepted, so don't give up.

5. Since Iran is in the news alot lately, the interest for the country is at an all time high, and I think many would want to read about its history. But not knowing your focus in the book, it's dificult to answer your question. Is it written more for historians or the general population?

Good luck -- Eivind^t@c 04:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not send your complete manuscript to any publisher. Unless your name is well known, they will dump it. What publishers want is a contents list, a chapter by chapter synopsis, and a sample chapter. Only if they like that will they ask for a complete manuscript. Also note that many publishers these days will only accept submissions on disk, rather than hard copy, so it's worth phoning to check first. Also do some homework first and find out which publishers produce that sort of book. Some publish only fiction, for example. Also note that many publishers these days receive hundreds of submissions every month and will not return manuscripts except by special arrangement.--Shantavira 07:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC) (a publisher)

• In answer to your fourth question, the copyright office in Canada is literally called the Copyright Office. [47] --Metropolitan90 08:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• It would be a good idea to peruse some blogs and otherwise writer related websites before you send off a manuscript. Try following the blogs of Miss Snark, Writer Beware (useful to avoid scams) and try reading articles about the publishing process from Writing World.com and AbsoluteWrite.com. Only if you get a feel of how the publishing industry works, you can send stuff without making newbie mistakes. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

First woman on a coin

Excluding symbolic figures like Marianne and Britannia, who was the first woman to be featured on a coin? If she was a queen, then who was the first non-queen to appear in this capacity? Bhumiya (said/done) 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't identify an individual woman, but this source says some Roman coins featured an empress. However, the source does not claim the coins were the first depictions of females on the currency, so other ancient civilizations may have done so first. In terms of non-rulers, the first US coin in general circulation to feature a woman was in 1979. [48] I suspect though that some other country would have produced an earlier coin that depicted a woman who was not a ruler. Road Wizard 02:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm flipping through "Greek Coins" by Ian Carradice, and the first obvious example of a coin with a portrait of a historical woman included there is Cleopatra of Antony-and-Cleopatra fame (it seems that Greeks didn't commonly include personal portraits of their rulers on coins before the time of Alexander the Great). But many of the feminine depictions on earlier coins look like perfectly ordinary heads of women wearing earrings, and you wouldn't be able to tell that a symbolic/divine portrayal was intended without additional knowledge. AnonMoos 06:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Musa of Parthia appears on some Parthian coins c. AD 1. The wives, mothers and daughters of Roman emperors often appeared on coins; see for example [49], [50]. Gdr 18:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think rulers and their wives are disallowed by the question. Otherwise, I'd go with Arsinoe (or "Arisnoe Philadelphos"). She's about...200 BC? Geogre 21:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Carradice actually included that same coin Image:PtolemyII.jpg in his book, but it's only labelled "Ptolemaic dynasty" in the book, and they both look like men to me... I think the original questioner was asking about both the first queen and the first non-queen. AnonMoos 02:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Arsinoe II of Egypt (316–270 BC) appears on many coins in her own right as well as with her brother and husband Ptolemy II of Egypt (see [51]). Gdr 12:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I had intended Arsinoe Philadelphos (Arsinoe II, "Arsinoe the brother lover"), as her power was incredible. She was the Ptolemy in all but name, ruling with her husband and, more or less, instead of her son (whom she also married). Geogre 16:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As for women who were not queens (regnant or consort), how about the Roman Republican political fixer Fulvia (died 40 BC) [52]? Gdr 12:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all the responses! Bhumiya (said/done) 02:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

how came christans eat pork?

Hello every1,

I am looking over the differences between old Jewish customs and the changes in Christianity

e.g Circumcision, Sabbath, "correct slaughter of animals", eating pork.

I have found circumcision - St. Paul writing and the Council in Jerusalem decison.

Sabbath, I understand is disputed by different sect in Christianity.

How about slaughter and appropriate meat?

The council of Jerusalem strengths the issue about slaughter and meat, as I understand.

So my question is: how came (when, why, etc..) Christans eat pork and sluaghter (eat) with blood?

Thanks, so much

Because it's delicious. - Nunh-huh 12:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It is possibly one of the examples of where the early Christian churches had to sacrifice some of their less important beliefs for reasons of practicality. The church began in an extremely hostile environment with the Roman Empire seeing them as a potential threat due to the "king" they kept proclaiming as the ruler of the world, and the vast majority of Jews who did not convert seeing them as an abomination. In that sort of situation, they had to make some tough decisions in order to appeal to a greater number of people (trying to convert someone by saying you have to give up all of your favourite foods or kill off your livestock would have been a little difficult). Another example of where this type of decision occurred was with a certain pagan spirit festival, which became incorporated into Christianity as All Hallows Eve (Halloween). Road Wizard 12:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

...and with a certain pagan Winter solstice festival, which became incorporated into Christianity as Christmas. -- Christianity is a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish (Greek, Roman, and others) traditions. Chl 13:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

  Thanks for the answer, but,

I am less interested in practical consideration. my question is in what way, did they justify the theological change from Judaism. e.g actual circumcision is changed to spiritual one (of the heart) and instead of circumcision, you get baptism to symbolize the connection to god (if I understand correctly). Then the Council of Jerusalem acknowledged Paul's view (which was different from other apostles). But the same council said don't eat meat with it's blood! (which symbolize the correct way to slaughter an animal)

So, was there a similar process regarding slaughtering, pork and all the rest of the forbidden animals (there are quite a lot of them)?

Thanks again.

The main issue had been settled—Gentiles would not have to be circumcised in order to become Christians. While Paul (and Peter, Act 11:5–10) believed there was nothing "unclean," it was wise to avoid those relatively minor practices that would likely offend Jewish Christians. As time passed and the church spread into predominately Gentile areas, there was no longer any reason to follow the Jewish dietary laws. —Wayward ^Talk 14:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There is Peter's vision in Acts 10: He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." Acts 11 describes how Peter is questioned about consorting and eating with gentiles, whereupon he recounts this to the other apostles, with good effect: When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." So the eating of pork is justified by direct command from God not to call it impure. In the narrative of Acts this precedes the Council of Jerusalem, Acts 15. --Lambiam^Talk 14:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Darn, Lambian gave the right answer before I could, again. Could those of us interested in belittling religion please refrain from answering questions? At this point, I think we get it: you're upset. I don't see how you profit yourselves or the questioners, though, by this constant reiteration. Geogre 14:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That particular interpretation of the vision is not universally supported. This source says the vision was not about whether the food was unclean, but rather was associating with gentiles unclean. However, I am not sure if the views expressed by the source I quoted are widely held, or just a personal opinion. Road Wizard 14:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Lambian. It's a very good answer for the Pork issue. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unclean_animals#Judaism, lays more quotes the help to clarify the issue. However, something still remains for me to be happy.

The same Council in Jerusalem, restated the Noahide laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws), which states: "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; that ye abstain from meats[18] offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled ..." – Acts 15:28-29

So, Pork is o.k, but how about blood, strangled animals ?

Well in the verse quoted above (Acts 15:28-29) it says to abstain "...from blood, from the meat of strangled animals..." schyler 18:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

• Also practicality,I guess. In the East where Judaism started ,eating pork was way risky and to forbid the eating of it was very sensible as were many of the other early Jewish laws. However when the faith spread out to Europe,not eating pork didn't make much sense,it was a valuable and cheap sourse of protein and safer in colder climates..Paul particularly appeared to clear the use of pork so voila! I find it interesting how various Christian "sub-groups" will harp on endlessly about some trivial law and ignore the pork one so again I say expediency comes into it.Please don't see this as criticism , I admire religious pragmatism.

hotclaws**==(81.136.157.206 07:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC))

Just curious, why would pork in particular be "riskier" to eat in warm climates than other meats? Not that I don't, as you do, admire religious pragmatism, I'm just afraid you may be missing an essential element in Jewish dietary laws by simplifying it in the way you seem to have. Loomis 00:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Powers (civics question)

Can you please help me with powers of the president and the prime minister of India?--Saksham Sharma 12:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

We have articles on both the President and Prime Minister of India. If they do not hold the answer to your question, please let us know. Road Wizard 14:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

health

I am a 19 year old boy. I am growing fatter each day. Can you help me out with this. a diet chart or someting.

The thing about diets is, you have to find one you can stick with. Every day. For the rest of your life. If you have to use a chart or count calories, you probably won't stick with it. Two simple tips:

• Drink water instead of soda, juice, or beer. Water has zero calories, and -- unlike what the ads tell you -- it quenches thirst as well as any other drink.
• Cut down on fast food (burger restaurants, take-out pizza, cafeteria food, and so on). Its full of calories and full of disgusting stuff no one in their right mind would want to eat (see Super Size Me). Try making your own sandwiches instead.

--Chl 13:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Our article on dieting has lots of useful information, as well as links to relevant websites. Physical exercise is also very important.--Shantavira 14:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

However, please don't use Wikipedia as a substitue doctor. Make sure that any exceptionally radical diet (i.e. Atkins, South Beach) that you enter has his (or her) approval. Emmett5 16:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

IMO, apart from what diet you are trying to do, the hardest part is sticking to it. I think the best way to achieve this is (a) to find a friend who is in the same position and diet together and talk to each other regularly to see if you are backsliding and (b) to get a small notebook and write down everything you eat. You'll frighten yourself with the number of "insignificant" biscuits that creep in with cups of coffee between your "oh so sensible" meals. (To do this you have to take book and pen with you everywhere - you'll fail if you "remember it and write it sdown when you get home". -- SGBailey 22:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Exercise.  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  02:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• Find a way to walk,cycle instead of using a car.Diet is okay,but exercise is even better.And if you could find a sport you like take it up.

hotclaws**==(81.136.157.206 07:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC))

Join the Marines. There's no such thing as a fat Marine. --Serie 18:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Simpsons episode featuring a "Portugal vs Mexico" soccer match

Can anyone tell in which episode of The Simpsons a soccer match between Portugal and Mexico takes part? An excerpt from the episode can be found here. Thanks!

The Cartridge Family --  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  16:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I had discovered it after searching for the episodes written by John Swartzwelder. Afonso Silva 15:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Characters in 19th century opera.

I am trying to find a list/source of 19th century operas by title which also contains the characters in each opera. From: Nairbeldraw

Our page List of operas contains a list of opera with their year of debut (the name of the page should be list of opera since opera is the plural of opus). I don't know if there is a page with exclusively 19th century opera though. schyler 18:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Not quite, schyler. As discussed on these pages recently, "opera" started out as a Latin word, the plural of "opus". It has evolved into a singular English word in its own right. Beethoven wrote one opera, Verdi wrote many operas. Cheers JackofOz 20:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I do now remember that discussion. At the time, I just remembered playing Opus 99 by Sergei Prokofiev and that that was when I had first learned that opus was (originally) the singular of Opera. Sorry. schyler 03:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. Noblesse oblige. Lol. JackofOz 04:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Che Guvera

Che wanted to end the US with a unilaterial nuculear strike, as such he seems like a terrorist. Why is he now so honored? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.72 (talk • contribs)

Present your references to such claim, please. Afonso Silva 19:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the name is "Che Guevara", not "Che Guvera". As far as I know he didn't want to attack the US, he only wanted a Cuban workers' state free from any American intervention, see history of Cuba. Given that similar Communist leaders were far more radical and extremists, I would say that it's not strange to see him honored, but nevertheless El Che isn't liked by all Latin Americans nor all Socialists. I'm Argentine, and if you want to know my opinion he was more like a disgrace for our country than a pride; many people here see him as a "national traitor" who served other country than his own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.152.3 (talk • contribs)

The irony of it all was the Che was a very hard-line "true" communist - didn't hold with hero-worship or the principle that any person was more important than any other. He would have been simply appalled to find that since his death he had become an iconic figure. As to being a national traitor to Argentina, as I understand it the situations in Argentina and Cuba were very different in Guevara's time and revolution would certainly have been quickly subdued in any mainland nation (in fact, he met his death trying to foment revolution in a mainland country). Also, he was always more of a behind-the-scenes worker than a true leadership figure - there was no-one of Castro's leadership skills or charisma working to overthrow the Argentinian government. it was the combination of their two abilities and styles that allowed for their success in Cuba. Without a comparable combination there wouldn't have been much likelihood of even creating a strong attempt at rebellion in Argentina. Grutness...wha? 07:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

So writing "Guvera" is terrible, but "nuculear" is OK? VdSV9•♫ 12:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Atom bombs don't roll over in their graves. --Serie 18:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

info on a painting

I have a very old painting.There is no artist signiture that i can see. The title of the painting is "Sunny Skies and Freindly Hearts".It is at least50 years old i know.Could somebody possibly find me some info on it.

                                                                  Thank You
                                                                  Jenny silvers

Google doesn't know the phrase "Sunny Skies and Friendly Hearts" on websearch or images. I couldn't bring myself to search for "Sunny Skies and Freindly Hearts". If you really want to know, help us help you and post a photo of the picture. Do you assume it is a famous artist for some reason, or might it turn out to be "Mr Joe 17" who worked in the hardware store at the other end of town and went to painting classes in the evenings? I believe Mr 17 has a daughter, June. -- SGBailey 21:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you know it is "very old" if all you know is that it is "at least 50 years old"? If you posted a picture of it it might aid people in identifying the artist. AllanHainey 09:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you have the original painting or a reproduction? If it is the original painting, there is no way someone could identify it from just the title. The lack of a signature strongly suggests it is not by a well-known artist. How do you know the title is "Sunny Skies and Friendly Hearts"? Is that engraved on a tag on the frame? Even if the painting itself has no signature, if the artist was known to the framer, they would normally have added the artist's name to the tag. --Lambiam^Talk 00:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

meissonier 1876

I have a picture with the signiture of messonier 1876 in the left hand corner. It is of two men on horseback drinking from goblets. There are two women petting the horses. One horse is white the other is black. there is a man sitting on a bench. They are in front of what looks to be a tavern.The men have feathers in there hats. Below this print is what appears to be a Russian man and the name looks like H or A Franna. Can you tell me what this is. It was found in a very old house. Thanks--Velvet53 22:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Judy

There has actually been a question about this very same picture on the Reference Desk before, and the picture appears to be "Halt at an Inn" by Jean-Louis-Ernest Meissonier. --Cadaeib (talk) 01:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

June 19

Gas leases in Southern Missippi

How can I find out about what company is doing natural gas drilling in the Wayn Co. Ms. or city of Waynsboro or the city of Buckaturny. My family has land in the area so we are all more that a little courious as to how to go about profiting from this turn of events. Thanks a bunch 00:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I would either ask some of the men doing the drilling or if that isn't convenient ask the local authority/city council who I suspect would have to had given permission for exploratory drilling. On the matter of profit you probably won't be able to make any unless the drillers actually find anything. In that case I would expect them to approach you about buying or licencing drilling on your land. AllanHainey 09:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You also might check your local library. Whenever companies have to do environmental impact studies before commencing work, they usually have to post the results in a public place, sometimes the library. Nowimnthing 13:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Student Loan Interest In England

My English student loans are supposed to only have enough interest to cover inflation but it seems when my statements come through that they're adding much more than enough to cover inflation. My guide to student loans say's it should only cover inflation. Why am I being overcharged? --Username132 (talk) 01:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you asked the financial institution through which you acquired your loans? It would seem to me that they would have infinitely more knowledge about their rates and policies than we would. Dismas|^(talk) 06:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

For a Student Loans Company loan (which is almost certainly what you're refering to) the interest rate is set at the retail price index (which is a measure of inflation.) For 2004-5 you should be being charged 2.6% APR and for 2005-6 the rate is 3.2%.[53] Your best bet if you think you're being overcharged is to call the Student Loans Company and ask them, their website gives their number as 0800 40 50 10. -- AJR | Talk 23:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

email me back please

Hello,

My names Laura and I was wondering if I am able to get your help on any information on artworks depicting daily life in france in the 19th century. i am doing this for school assessment and have been told to contact as many possible places as possible so anything would be a great help! I have to do two paintings by three artists showing of depiction of daily life in france and i have choosen courbet's a burial at ornans and the stone breakers, daumier's rue transnonain and third class carriage and millet's the gleaners and the angelus.

Please email me back when you can,

Many thanks,

Laura Palmer

Did you try our articles on Gustave Courbet, Honoré Daumier, and Jean-François Millet? You can find these articles quicker if you use the search box on the left of your browser window. --Robert Merkel 05:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia's future

What will wikipedia be like 30 or 40 years in the future?

I expect Jimbo Wales will start acting like Caligula.

Seriously, who knows? here are some of Jimbo's longer-term thoughts, though they don't seem like they'll take longer than a decade or two. --Robert Merkel 05:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

And what will Wikipedia be 300 or 4000 years in the future? --Lambiam^Talk 00:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In the Year 2525. I think in 30 or 40 years, Wikipedia will be 35 or 45 years old...or a question in Trivial Pursuit Noughties Edition. Geogre 02:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Jo Swingson

How I get british MP Jo Swingson to have sex with me?

Perhaps if you spent less time repeatedly asking us this question, and more time asking The Hon. Ms Swinson, you'd have better luck. I'd also recommend getting her name correct, that always seems to turn the ladies on. --ByeByeBaby 05:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

She has bad teeth! Why would you? -- Миборовский 01:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Ph.D in Military management

I want to make my further education of PH.D level in the USA in the feild of Military Management. What web sites can I gain the concise information covering all aspects of the mentioned subject

It's not clear what you're asking. Are you searching for information about universities that offer PhD programs on this topic, so as you can decide where to apply? Or are you looking for reference information about military management to assist you in your PhD research? --Robert Merkel 12:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Robert. Yub, I wnat to search for information about universities that offer PhD programs on the topic and then make my decision where I should apply. Please tell me more

Thanks

First sovereign country in the Americas

While speaking to my father yesterday morning for Father's Day we got on the subject of why citizens of the U.S. call themselves Americans and how it comes off as arrogant to the rest of the countries of N & S America since they are "Americans" as well. He seems to recall reading something somewhere that said that not only was the U.S. the first modern (not including nations/empires like the Aztecs and such) sovereign nation in the Americas, all the rest being colonies of some other (probably European) country, but also that there was some document written in the early days of the American revolution that stated something like "We will be called the United States of America and our citizens will thus be called Americans". So since we were the first sovereign nation here, we got the name since we "called dibs" (my way of looking at it, not his words since he's more eloquent than I) or some such thing. So does anyone have any idea what document he was thinking of and if the U.S. actually was the first sovereign nation? Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 06:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I think the Native American nations (such as the Iroquois Confederacy) were the first but they had dark skin & didn't use money so the proto-Americans didn't recognise them as soverign nations (though the British did). AllanHainey 09:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The US was the first nation recognized as such by European nations on the American continents. As for "we shall be called 'Americans'" being formally laid out in a document, no. It's not in the US Declaration of Independence, US Constitution, or any other major US document -- at least not as such. However, they may refer to US citizens as "Americans" reflecting an existing popular usage -- certainly "United Statesians" wouldn't have existed prior to the US Revolutionary War, so "Americans" (to reflect inhabitants of Britain's American colonies) seems fairly appropriate. However, particularly at the time, it was also (if not more) common to refer to Virginians, New Yorkers, and other state-by-state identities (recall that the US was originally a commonwealth of generally-sovereign states, not a federal entity). — Lomn | Talk 16:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Chinese Provincial Symbols

If anyone could provide images or descriptions of any visual symbols for Chinese provinces or municipalities, like flags or heraldry, I'd appreciate it. I'm especially interested in traditional or at least pre-PRC things. --207.255.69.226 07:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The Flags of the World website probably has quite a few items of interest - start on their China index page and follow some of the links (especially those under "Historical flags"). You may turn up some interesting flags, at least. Grutness...wha? 11:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

They have no provincial flags or such lame thingies. -- Миборовский 01:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

indo bangladesh war

can i have the details of the indo bangladesh war..??

Do you mean the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971? Notinasnaid 08:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

A note of explanation is needed here. Prior to 1971, Bangladesh was not yet an independent country, but was called East Pakistan and was controlled by Pakistan. As a result of the war between Pakistan and India and the related Bangladesh Liberation War, East Pakistan gained independence from Pakistan and became Bangladesh. StuRat 16:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

australian female recording artists

hello i would like to find a list of australian female recording artists from 1974 to 1986 with self titled albums, that is a song that is the same name as the album i would really appreciate any help you can offer me this is my first time on this site thankyou very much i look forward to your reply. 210.8.240.122 10:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately I think you will have to try and find this information yourself. Australian female singers is a good starting point, but from that list you would have to go through each artist and find her discography on her individual page (if it has one). Good luck. --Richardrj 11:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Largest number of pubs per capita ??

Everywhere I go around the world - Europe, Australia, USA - it doesn't take long before some wise-acre local sits me down and proudly explains the fact that "did I know that such-and-such a nearby city/town/village/street has the largest number of pubs (or sometimes restaurants) per square mile, or per capita, in the world." With the rate that establishments open and close and populations change I can't believe this would be a viable statistic anywhere, and I am sick to death of being told this as ABSOLUTE GOSPEL TRUTH by idiots (and tourist boards) everywhere! So... does anybody know if a survey has ever been done on this kind of thing, and if so, what the results might have been ? I'm pretty sure Guinness Book of Records don't have a category for this. Thanks everyone!

I would have expected London to rank quite highly here, but, as you said, I can't find anything too specific. I was quite tempted to say Paris- when I was there recently, I saw a large number of pubs claiming to be be "English" around the Champs-Elysées and the Arc de Triomphe backstreets!

On the other hand, it could be a small village somewhere in England- quite a few hamlets (villages with less than 100 residents) often have 2 (or more) pubs, so that would make 1 pub per 100 people or so. Of course, you could then argue that in the Australian outback, the ratio may be very close to 1:1!

Theoretically, Heaven would seem to be a good answer!

EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 13:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the 2001 Illustrated book of World Rankings, France has the highest alcohol consumption per capita at 11.9 liters per capita. Australia ranks 16th with 7.7 liters ; UK ranks 21 and the USA at 23 with 7.2 and 6.6 liters respectively. A lot of Eastern European and EU countries round out the top slots. Like you said, pubs would be a lot harder to count. Guinness doesn't list it, or # of restaurants, which is another claim I see a lot. Nowimnthing 14:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

In Britain though you cant just open up a pub as you can a shop ctr in my continental countries where its very easy to open a new bar. Jameswilson 23:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I've aways been told that St Albans is supposed to have the largest number of pubs in Britain, and our article says it is a claimant along with Edinburgh, Norwich, Nottingham, Otley and Rochdale. From my experience I'm suprise Brighton is in the list. Jooler 21:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've read that Žižkov in Prague has more pubs per square mile than anywhere else on Earth, and that Milwaukee is the bar capital of the U.S. But these tend to be the things of urban legends. -- Mwalcoff 02:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I just looked it up -- Montana has the lowest person-per-"drinking place" ratio among US states of one bar for every 1,439 people according to the 2002 economic census. Virginia was highest with a ration of 38,795 to 1. Montana also has the lowest ratio for food-service places in general (279:1), with Mississippi at the other end (663:1). -- Mwalcoff 02:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The Republic of Rose Island had a pub, without apparently having any population. That's infinite per-capita pubdom!--Pharos 02:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Six main manufacturing sectors

Hello there,

Ive been earching the site but getting more confused with things,

Sorry to be such a pain but could you by any chance list the 6 main sectors in manufacturing, I think its something like atoumotive, chemicals, food ect but not at all sure!

If you could help, it'd be great. I need this to make a start on my essay. Im really stuck!

Thank you very much,

Ben Moore

I can't seem to find anything related to manufacturing which lists "6 sections" in manufacturing, but I'll keep trying.

I tried manufacturing, but this article is a little on the thin side.

EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 13:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like the answer should be in a textbook you probably should have read. Nowimnthing 14:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This is no more so sure, as teachers do give homework implying personally researching the Internet. And here we happen to be part of it. Is there some Natl Bureau of Statistics giving economics hints for that question ? (In France : INSEE) --DLL 20:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

nigerian law

please where can i get articles and excerpts online on nigerian law like stuff on nigerian conflict of laws and law of trusts?thank you!

mossey

try [54] and don't keep asking the same question, we heard you the first time. :^) Nowimnthing 14:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

burj dubai

does anyone know which main company will be head of the new tallest building in the world under construction in Dubai, United Arab Emirates? i once, for some reason, heard it was going to be samsung but now wikipedia says its just another city. and plus, the dubai mall will be 12 million square feet right? well, somehow someone should tell those engineers that's twice as big as the pentagon!!!

Yes, I will tell the engineers...if I can find their phone number. I know I have it here somewhere. - Zepheus 19:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Red Line

Would someone be as kind as to tell me what that red line indicates...

http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11fi1.png

I have a hunch it`s a river but would like reassurance.

Given that your image has rivers on it flowing north-south, I'd say it's pretty unlikely that there also exists a river flowing east-west, crossing them. Perhaps our article on the Trans-Siberian Railway might be of interest. Particularly since it has the exact same map, down to the green line representing the Baikal-Amur mainline. --ByeByeBaby 15:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

thanks a lot

YouTube's Brookers: I don't get it!

Can anyone explain what is interesting about the videos of YouTube celebrity and recent Carson Daly signee Brookers? I don't get it! (I'm not trying to be snarky, by the way. I sincerely don't understand what is interesting about her videos. Someone who "gets it" please explain.) --I Don't Get It 15:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

library

ive heard that the library of congress, washington d.c., is the largest library in the world. however its all about politics and stuff like that and its really not a normal library. that brings the record down to the new york public library. right?

It isn't, and no. The LOC contains a copy of every book published in the USA, including magazines. Geogre 16:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The world extends beyond the U.S.A. There are many libraries, both national deposit libraries (like the Library of Congress) and public lending (or reference) libraries around the world which I suspect are equal or larger than NY public library. Incidentally your claim that the Library of Congress is the largest library in the world isn't actually correct, it has the largest volume of shelf space but the British Library holds the most volumes (around 20,000,000 more than the Library of Congress). AllanHainey 16:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, doesn't that mean that either the LOC has lots of empty shelves or the BL has many books sitting on the floor or in boxes ? StuRat 16:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, noting that the LOC and the NYPL are different types of libraries is pretty much correct; see national library and public library for details. However, I've found no info in a cursory search regarding the largest public library and, as noted by AllanHainey above, "largest" may be a flexible definition. — Lomn | Talk 16:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

StuRat, I took it as meaning that the Library of Congress has thicker books. AllanHainey 10:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

So the BL is mostly thin Tinky Winky picture books ? LOL StuRat 04:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Or American authors are more long-winded than British ones. AllanHainey 11:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The Chaps

whatever happened to the up and coming UK punk rock band TheChaps? after they toures the US last summer they disappeared. They were my favourite band and i heard grave news about them. i couldnt find anything on wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.67.138.42 (talk • contribs) .

(Removed possible spam link: although perhaps relevant to the question, it did not add anything. EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 17:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC))

Please sign your posts with "~~~~", it helps us to reply to your more quickly!

Since they're probably non-notable, Wikipedia won't know any more than you do. Sorry.

EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 17:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Was the Holocaust Illegal Under Nazi German Law?

As far as I could find out, there was never any law legalising the Holocaust. Is this true? If so, could the Führer of the country under military command, be prosecuted for authorising the extermination camps? Thank you in advance. - sYndicate ^talk 16:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think there may have been: I'm sure some papers were found authorising it...in fact, have a look here and here. Nothing particularly explicit, though. EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 17:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the Holocaust was never explicitly legalized in Nazi Germany. Hitler avoided signing any orders concerning the Holocaust, as far as possible. The majority of these orders were given verbally. Read the article Wannsee Conference. Under a purely technical and naive/hipocritical point of view Hitler could have been prosecuted. But please don't be naive, the guy was the absolute leader of Germany and above the reach of any German law. Almost all the key positions in Germany were occupied by persons who were loyal to Hitler, members of the Nazi party, or at the very least obeyed Hitler's orders. History shows that persons with the power of Hitler (like Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, etc) are never prosecuted, UNLESS they lose their power somehow (like Pinochet or Saddam Hussein). In truth, the true law in such regimes is: "The wishes of our LEADER is our sole command, and our only law." and the rest (laws which protect our rights, or the rights of other persons) is but useless and neglected papertrash. Flamarande 18:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The book "The Nazis: A Warning from History" by Laurence Rees ISBN 056349333X addresses this question in some detail. ➨ ЯЄDVERS 22:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Flamarande is absolutely right. One can only speak of the relevancy of the law in societies where the rule of law is respected. And by "rule of law" I don't just mean the narrow "positivist" definition of law, but rather the broader "natural law" concept of what's right and what's wrong. Another way of explaining it is the oft quoted distinction: "The Rule of Law, NOT of Man." Clearly, neither of these definitions of the rule of law existed in Nazi Germany. The law was morally abhorrent, and further, to whatever extent a law may have stood in Hitler's way, he would have merely repealed it upon command, and therefore exhonerated himself from any possible criminal liability. In other words, in the simplest of terms, the original question is a moot one. Whether the Holocaust was illegal or not under Nazi German Law is irrelevant, for Nazi German Law, by its very nature, does not qualify as law at all. Loomis 21:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

What is a loaded question?

The urban dictionary contains three different (although not exclusive) definitions for the term 'loaded question'. I want to know how to interpret the first instance of 'loaded question' as it occurs in The Da Vinci Code. --Username132 (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? I took a look but couldn't understand what you were asking exactly!EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 18:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

What does the term 'a loaded question' mean? --Username132 (talk) 18:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

A loaded question (from the same usage as "loaded", or unfair, dice) is a question constructed such that answers are biased in advance. The classic example is "Have you stopped beating your wife?" -- a "yes" implies that you once beat your wife, a "no" implies that you currently beat your wife, and no clear answer exists for "I have never beaten my wife". — Lomn | Talk 18:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Or the old school joke "Does your mom know you're gay?" Yes means you're gay and you mom knows about it, no means you're gay and your mom doesn't know. Wizrdwarts (T|C|E) 18:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Respectfully, those are the fallacy of many questions rather than a loaded question. A loaded question is one that is unfair, yes, but it is one that is laden with extra signification. The question is freighted with signification beyond the linguistic. It can carry either an expected answer (although one with a very clearly expected answer is a rhetorical question) or, more commonly, a thick sense of emotional danger. Geogre 19:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you mean that Ben Laden was freighted with extra signification ? Maybe a thick sense of emotional danger ? --DLL 19:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Benjamin Laden was heavy. Geogre 11:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Given that, it might be worth making loaded question something other than a redirect to fallacy of many questions, where it's explicitly listed as an AKA. — Lomn | Talk 20:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see it going either way. On the one hand, "loaded question" is not synonymous with the fallacy of many questions, but, on the other hand, Wikipedia is not concerned with lexical matters. If we were at Wiktionary, the redirect would make no sense. From an encyclopedic point of view, the fallacy of many questions may be the only proper encyclopedic reference for the term. Geogre 11:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand. Could someone ask me a loaded question so that I can compare it with the one in my book? --Username132 (talk) 21:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Btw, what is the "loaded question" in the Da Vinci Code? I have the book, so a page number would be enough. Wizrdwarts (T|C|E) 23:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what page it is, but Langdon and Fache (police cheif guy) are at an art museum in Paris (the Louvre, I think) and Fache asks Langdon his opinion of the glass pyramid entrance that was built. --Username132 (talk) 11:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Any question could be a loaded question if it has an excess baggage of significance and expectations. "Why do you like that book?" is not really loaded as it is requesting your opinion, but if from the tone of the voice they imply that they think that the book is rubbish, the question is loaded; requiring you to justify holding a different opinion. A good example of a loaded question could be "have you finnished with that?" which is not usually asked out of general interest but because the questioner wants the item. MeltBanana 00:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

A good answer for a loaded question is Wu. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 01:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In the example from The Da Vinci Code the question is loaded because it is fraught with extra emotional baggage which doesn't really have to do with the question, because of the relationship Parisians have with the particular artwork, in addition to the dynamic between the asker (a Parisian) and an outsider American. Specifically, Americans are taught that Parisians hate that sculpture and think it's a scar on the face of the Louvre, so saying that you think it's awesome could put you in an awkward position, however saying that you don't like it might be seen as insulting the Louvre or French architecture, or who knows what. Mak (talk) 19:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

the letter j

why is the letter J referred to as a currupt letter?

Removed email address to prevent spam, ham, jam and other foodstuffs being sent to poster. EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 18:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Try taking at look at J (although I couldn't see why there) or asking this question on the language desk. EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 18:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Where is it called a currupt letter? What is the context? Do you mean corrupt? Possibly because it was originally a modified letter "I", so I suppose one could think of it as a corrupt I. In (old fashioned) printing, corrupt letters are simply damaged letters.--Shantavira 18:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

It is the corrupt letter because a few years ago on Sesame Street it got caught offering bribes to the letters G, P and the number 3. AllanHainey 10:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, before the internet boom, but with insider knowledge that the World Wide Web (WWW) was about to take off like wildfire, J invested heavily in the letter W while it was a relatively cheap buy. Loomis 09:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Gavin Bryars (Composer)

Gavin Is a great composer was never called richard

Do you have a question about Gavin Bryars? If you're taking issue with the statement in the article that his first name is actually Richard, the place to raise it is on the article's talk page. --Richardrj 20:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Book export licences.

Does anyone know under what legislation (if any)book sellers are required to obtain book export licences when exporting rare and/or valuable books/manuscripts (for sale abroad) from England/France? The text I am interested in is of great historical and cultural significance. I would be extremely grateful for any assistance.

You want to ask the Department of Cultcha in the UK. Shimgray | talk | 21:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks Shimgray - thanks for taking the time to reply.

Does anyone have any idea of an equivalent in France?

Glass House

In England or France, during the nineteenth century there was a glass building built. Does anyone know it's name? The Crystal something perhaps? I don't think it was a greenhouse though. Also, does anyone know the name of the Queen's estate in Scotland? It's slipped my mind.

The Crystal Palace? DJ Clayworth 20:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

And Balmoral. --Richardrj 20:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

WWI : one of biggest manmade explosions ever

Hi,

I was taught that in World War I, a huge explosion took place in West-Flanders, Belgium. I think but I am not sure that it was done on purpose by allied forces. I checked the Ypresarticle but it doesn't mention it. It is said that the explosion was felt in England.

Can anyone say more about this? When and where did it happen?

Evilbu 21:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

600 tons of explosives were detonated in mines under the German trenches as part of the Battle of Messines Ridge in 1917. It was intentional (though slightly earlier than planned). You might also find the list of the largest artificial non-nuclear explosions interesting. Shimgray | talk | 21:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

IIRC, this was the biggest deliberate man-made explosion during the war, but the disaster at Halifax, Nova Scotia was actually a bigger blast. Grutness...wha? 03:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the largest man-made explosion ever was the halifax explosion

Uh, no it wasn't. Even if you qualify "explosion" with the adjective "conventional" (as in, non-nuclear), it is still not likely to be the largest. The ship which exploded seems to only had about 2,600 tonnes of explosives aboard (compare with the Port Chicago disaster, which had around 4,600 tonnes, or the Texas City Disaster, which had 7,700 tonnes of ammonium nitrate; much less nuclear explosions, which are measured in the kilotons and megatons). --Fastfission 21:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Had I had internet back then, I would have checked a lot more my teacher told us. Thanks the Battle of Messines is probably what I was looking for. Evilbu 15:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Soviet victory without D-Day

Is it possible that Soviet Union had won WWII without the D-Day? Lots of historians claim that and I believe it would have been possible. What do you say?

It's possible, but also highly variable. The western Allies could have instead assaulted the Balkans (an idea Churchill favored), which circumvents D-Day without lessening the contributions of the western Allies. Backing away further, the Italian front could have been substantially reinforced. On the other hand, without even a threat of western invasion, Germany could have transferred additional troops to the Russian front. However, it seems to be a commonly-accepted consensus that Germany would have prevailed in Russia had the UK sued for peace (and the US then not entered the European war). So, end result, it makes for a great debate and good speculation is highly dependent on your assumptions and constraints. — Lomn | Talk 22:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you look at the state of things on the Eastern Front at the time of D-Day, it certainly seems likely that the Soviet advance would have continued. (Image:Eastern_Front_1943-08_to_1944-12.png). Once most Soviet territory and population was recovered (and it was at that point), Germany had very little chance of surviving a prolonged war. --Ornil 01:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Oldest Structure

Could I please know: What is the oldest man-made structure in the world?

As an actual building, probably the Great Pyramid of Giza? For less complex structures, the Indigenous Australians have been creating piles of shells for between 40,000 and 50,000 years, some of which are still found inland from beaches in Australia. ➨ ЯЄDVERS 22:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

There are preserved bark huts of the Maglemosian culture. Some igloos are pretty old too. — Gareth Hughes 23:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Çatalhöyük is also an impressive neolithic domestic settlement. However, our article on Natufian culture says It was an Epipalaeolithic culture, but unusual in that it established permanent settlements even before the introduction of agriculture. The Natufians are likely to have been the ancestors of the builders of the first Neolithic settlements of the region, which may have been the earliest in the world. — Gareth Hughes 23:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Guinness World Records should tell you.

Laws regarding confiscation by teachers

Are there any laws regarding confication of stuff by teachers? (in the US btw) Like they have to give it back at the end of the school year, and also about dargerous objects? Wizrdwarts (T|C|E) 22:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Please specify the state(s). Russian F 23:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Uh, California, I guess, since that's where I live. You don't have to go into detail, just a summary would be good. Wizrdwarts (T|C|E) 23:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose there probably are laws against taking something from another person without permission from that person, but a teacher can simply send you to detention or pile on the homework, so letting the teacher have the item in mind would probably be a lot easier. Russian F 00:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

IANAL, but I would think that the item would technically belong to the parents of said child and therefore they would have final say as to whether they even wanted the kid to get it back. I'm not sure if parents have to sign any forms to the fact or not but I would think that by allowing your child to go to a certain school, public or otherwise, they would be volunteering, if not outright agreeing, to allowing the teachers to enforce the rules of the school and/or their classroom. And if a rule says that items may be taken from the children, then it would be up to the parents and the teacher what was to happen to that item. Dismas|^(talk) 00:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I know in Texas that on the first day of school we are given a Student Code of Conduct and to be able to go to school, you must sign a document that you have read it, agree to the rules, and agree to follow them and accept any consequences if you don't. After going over mine real quick, it says that teachers reserve the right to confiscate any item the student possesses if it is making a classroom disturbance and that the school reserves the right to keep it indefinitely. I really don't think that this would happen in most cases but concerning weapons, I betcha they will be kept. A cell phone, toy, etc., however, will probable be given back. In Texas the first offense (phone ringing in class)=warning, 2nd offense=$25 fee to get the object back, 3rd offense=Parent must come in and pay $50 for it. schyler 01:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The entire state of Texas? I think your principal just found a way to supplement his/her tiny salary. I bet the money is being pocketed. --Nelson Ricardo 02:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we're back to the ever-loved in loco parentis. Yes, the parents can get the stuff, but the school is your parent while you are there. If the parents can take it away, so can the teacher. Cell phones delenda est. Geogre 02:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be "cell phones delendae sunt"? СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 03:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree that the doctrine of in loco parentis means schools have as much power over students as parents have over what goes on in their house. Public schools cannot suspend students without a hearing, for example, and they cannot, say, ban students from donning black armbands to protest a war. Nonetheless, public schools too often attract the kind of people who enjoy micromanaging others with hundreds of ridiculous rules and take pleasure in punishing them for infractions -- people who in third-world countries would join fascist death squads. Schools in the U.S. often remind me of prisons, and if you don't feel like rebelling, there's something wrong with you. -- Mwalcoff 02:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Technically it is just my school district, but it sites penal code 1234.4321 or whatnot to support each rule. I can't really see my principal doing that. I mean she looks so innocent. Take a look for yourself (FYI she transferred to that school after this past school year). Of course she could be an evil, maniacal, evil-plot plotter kind of person. And according to the .pdf document on my school district's website, her minimum salary would be $80,000 because she has her doctorate.schyler 03:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• IANAL but I would consider not giving an item back theft (unless it was some sort of weapon or drugs. I haven't heard of confiscated items not being returned in any other cases, but then again, why wouldn't they give them back after the student learned their lesson? - Mgm|^(talk) 08:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• • I had a 5th grade teacher that kept the items in a drawer. The drawer was full of old Rubiks cubes, squirt guns, slinkies, etc. Dismas|^(talk) 08:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I was told to confiscate cell phones from students as that was a new polocy in my Texas public school district. As a substitute teacher I was not going to question it. The first time I tried it a high school quarterback stood up and towered over five foot me and gave me a lecture about the cell phone was private property and was not going to given up without a fight unless I had a warrent for it. I kindly allowed him to keep it if he kept it in his pocket dureing my class. I was impressed by the larva state of his legal instencts. I also quite. (Hobgoblin)

I assume you weren't an English teacher. User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

June 20 to June 30

The Humanities desk archive of 20 June 2006 to 30 June 2006 can be found here.