Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive879

Editor routinely reverting contributions from IP address editors.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering based artcles that he routinely watches. This is behaviour that was previously addressed by a Request for comment in 2012.

Since that time, Wtshymanski has continued to systematically revert any and all edits made by IP address editors. Many are vandalism (no problem), but many are good faith edits. There are far too many examples to document here, so I have restricted examples to just those from the past three weeks.

17th Feb

IP edit: [1]

Wtshymanski revert: [2]

This was a good faith and basically correct edit. It was reverted on the tenuous grounds of being 'ungrammatical and out of place'. It could easily have been made gramatical and was exactly where it needed to be.

18th Feb

IP edit: [3]

Wtshymanski revert: [4]

This was a good faith edit and technically correct. It was reverted on the tenuous grounds that the output is not light despite infra-red often being described as "infra-red light" as indeed it is throughout the rest of the article. Further: infra-red light emitting diodes are described as precisely that - "light emitting diodes". The revert actually made the article worse because it no longer told the reader what the 900 nm output is (could be an electrical signal for example).

25th Feb

IP edit: [5]

Wtshymanski revert: [6]

The article was PRODed by Wtshymnski. The IP editor challenged the PROD by deleting it as he is perfectly entitled to do. WTS simply reverted the deletion doubtless because he believes that IP address editors should not be allowed to challenge PRODs even though they are. (The WP:PROD procedure clearly states that a PROD is aborted if the tag is deleted and it must not be rePRODed.)

25th Feb

IP edit: [7]

Wtshymanski revert: [8]

The IP editor's edit must be assumed by the WP:AGF policy to be a good faith edit, there being no evidence to the contrary. Nevertheless, WTS has, characteristically not assumed the required good faith by reverting the edit as 'vandalism', and has done so by copy-pasting back an old version of the article (intermediate edits preventing a stright 'undo'). In his haste to revert yet another IP address editor, WTS also pasted back a spelling mistake and a 'coauthors' parameter to a CS1 template which is deprecated. Thus WTS corrected one error but reintroduced two.

2nd Mar

IP edit: [9]

Wtshymanski revert: [10]

Again a potentially good faith edit from an IP address editor . Once again, WTS makes no pretence at assuming that the edit is good faith and it is dismissed as vandalism. Another editor, Andy Dingley independently made the same point on Wtshymanski's talk page. Nothing can be inferred from the editing history as the IP address resolves to a college in India so it is anybody's guess how many real users are behind it.

It is known that Wikipedia is always wanting to recruit productive editors for the project. Inevitably, many potential editors will start as IP address editors before creating an account - provided they find the environment welcoming. Wtshymanski has long held the view that IP address editors should not be allowed to edit Wikipedia and has said so (see RfC referenced above for more). This may be Wtshymanski's view but it is known that it is not the view of the project and Wtshymanski has no right to impose his view in the face of the project's

IP address editors can be productive and offer quality editing to the project. Deliberate wholesale reverting such edits does not provide the welcoming environment, that such editors need if they are to be encouraged to staty.

As evidence: a quick scan produces this IP address's contributions [11]. This editor has made good quality contributions on UK parliamentary procedure; seems to understand the subject and the contributions have been well referenced. I suspect this may be an experienced editor, but if it is, I have not been able to link the address with any other or an account. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 16:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Totally agree with DieSwartzPunkt The diffs shown, show the removals called vandalism and they're not, further when he's challenged by a non-ip user, he's been letting the edits stand. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

18 Feb IP edit was absolutely correct and Wtshymanski revert is an error, because what it emits is light (everything that involves photon is light). Some part of the entire light band is visible, but other invisible parts are also called.

I agree with DieSwartzPunkt's observation for all other instances too. – nafSadh did say 17:44, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• What's the point in this ANI post? Is this an "incident"? Maybe. What administrator action is desired here though?

Once upon a time we had WP:WQA and WP:RFC/U. Neither of them were likely to be effective (WP:Requests_for_comment/Wtshymanski wasn't), but at least they were an attempt by WP to have a means of resolving such issues. Admins won't act over such issues - it would involve making value judgements about other editors and that never happens. Even when it's not a popular editor who can rally their clique of supporters.

WP needs to restore WQA, RFC/U or something else in that line. This ANI post won't achieve that much though. Wtshymanski will, as always, back off for just long enough to dodge the bullet (see the RFCU closing comments) and then will be back, just the same as before. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Not proven The accusation is:

"Wtshymanski is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering-based articles that he routinely watches." (typo and punctuation corrected)

and, doubling down, just in case we might have thought the meaning was open to interpretation:

"Wtshymanski has continued to systematically revert any and all edits made by IP address editors." (emphasis was in the original)

But a quick perusal of the history of each of the pages diff'd above will show many edits by IPs that were not reverted by Wtshymanski. Therefore the claim of "any" is specious. Some were let stand, some were reverted by others, "others" not excepting Andy Dingly and DieSwartzPunkt. There are also many edits by IPs that were reverted by W. with completely defensible reasons and edit summaries.

Perhaps W. is too quick to assume that IPs' edits are wrong. (From my own experience, given the number of IPs' edits I've corrected that were wrong, this would not be an unreasonable bias on W.'s part.) I believe AD and DSP are similarly too eager to find fault with W.'s edits, and this patently absurd accusation of "any and all" is a result. Jeh (talk) 20:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

"many edits by IPs that were not reverted by Wtshymanski."

So because he didn't get all of them, his behaviour over the ones that he did revert should be discounted?

This isn't about Wtshymanski reverting anon edits. It's about his assumption that for any anon edit he reverts (frequently a justified revert) he assumes that it's deliberate vandalism, and he assumes this because of who made it, not the quality of the edit. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

"This isn't about Wtshymanski reverting anon edits." That's odd, because that's exactly what you DSP said it was about. If it's really about his over-use of the vandalism charge, then you DSP should have said that from the beginning. And then every one of your DSP's your diffs needs to show an edit summary by W. with a demonstrably unjust accusation of vandalism, or they don't support your position. If it turns out that a clear majority of W's edits to IPs' edits do not include an unjust accusation of vandalism, your case gets rather weak. Jeh (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Jeh, I know that you're just about the only friend Wtshymanski has round here, so it's not surprising that you've rushed to defend him. However please actually read this post first. I didn't raise this. I haven't posted any diffs, so I don't know which diffs you're complaining about. Mind, it would have to be very blinkered to not see the problem with what he's doing. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Correct you are. I missed the correct attribution among all the rest of the periodic Wtshymanski pile-on. I have edited my above accordingly. But as for your "I don't know which diffs" claim, there is only one set associated with the complaint. So I think that if you were to hazard a guess as to which diffs in this talk page section I'm referring to, you'd either be correct, or you'd have to pretend to be a complete idiot. And we all know you are not that, so please drop the "I don't know what you're referring to" act. You're smarter than that, and I'd thank you to assume that I'm smart enough to not buy it. Jeh (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You claimed that Wtshymanski had allowed some IP edits to stand, but failed to provide any diffs. In the short discussion that I had on this at Wtshymanski's talk page, he made the same claim. He then obliged with a single diff that supported that position. But he had to go all the way back to 2007 to find it. There are examples of IP edits being allowed to stand, but as they are obvious corrections of errors, reverting them would be vandalism in itself (though as in case four above, that is not always an obstacle). DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, please. You took that "2007" bit seriously?

So. "There are examples of IP edits being allowed to stand." Your words. Doesn't that rather contradict your accusation? Do I have to quote it yet again, to remind you of what it was? Do you understand what it takes to disprove a universal claim? It takes one counterexample. One.

The first diff above is from DC motor. From the first page of 50 edits, working from the bottom (I am not counting IP edits that were clearly vandalism, either reverted by W. or otherwise):

[12] IP made stylistic wording changes to picture caption. W. did not revert.

[13] vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

[14] IP wikilinked Hybrid car. W. did not revert.

[15] IP made minor grammar correction. W. did not revert.

[16] vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

[17] minor word correction by IP. Nobody reverted.

[18] vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

[19] vandalism by IP. Rv by Wtshymanski.

[20] IP added redlinks. Rv by Andy Dingley.

[21] vandalism by IP (added blank lines). Rv by someone else.

[22] vandalism by IP. Rv by ClueBot.

[23] vandalism by same IP as above. Rv by ClueBot.

[24] vandalism by IP. rv by someone else.

[25] vandalism by IP. rv by ClueBot.

[26] vandalism by same IP as above. Rv by someone else.

[27] IP removed a blank line (non-rendering edit). Not reverted that I could find.

[28] Wtshymanski edit. Unrelated to previous IP edits.

[29] vandalism by IP (blanking). Fixed by ClueBot.

[30] IP added an ungrammatic sentence: "It has very high starting resistance so that it would use in that kind of equipments which needs a very high starting torque." Wtshymanski reverted with comment "out of place unclear and ungrammatical" (this is the rv DSP complained about).

[31] minor grammatical correction by IP. Wording improved by me.

Counts:

19 edits by IPs total (I am counting successive edits by the same IP, with none intervening, as just one).

11 of these were vandalism. Of those, ONE was reverted by Wtshymanski.

6 were good edits. Of those, W. reverted NONE. Two of them were significant changes to content.

1 was a good faith but erroneous edit, reverted by Andy Dingley.

1 was what I would call "legitimately problematic". Wtshymanski reverted it. Yes, it could have been improved.

It seems clear to me that W., far from reverting "any and all" edits by IPs as you accused, was far more selective. He in fact reverted only one of 11 IPs' vandalism edits, one problematic edit, and none of six good edits. I would say that the evidence from this article, one of those you complained about, refutes your accusation rather soundly. The evidence does not even support a claim of "W. erroneously reverts most IP edits", with or without an accusation of vandalism. (I would also say that it shows there is ample reason to view IP edits with a particularly skeptical eye.)

But you are the one making the claim, so you are the one who should be providing complete summaries of recent diffs. Not just a few cherry-picked examples. Jeh (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The above is non-evidence. 12 edits were reverted by others. That proves nothing except that someone beat Wtshymanski to the punch in each case. Even Wtshymanski presumably sleeps and works from time to time. As already stated, Wtshymanski usually does not revert an edit, if it leaves the article wrong (6 edits). And the last 'legitimately problematic' one, is similar to case 1 of this complaint. 'It could have been improved'. Yes, and Wtshymanski is as capable of improving it as anyone else, but if the edit had been left, someone would have improved it.

I have not 'cherry-picked' evidence as you claim. I have listed every IP address revert since 17th Feb. If I had provided a 'complete' list of sumaries as you suggest, this ANI would still be being compiled. But this was stated in the original complaint. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So, I provided the diffs you asked for, and you moved the goalposts. But then you want to stick by the original complaint? The original complaint was:

"Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering based artcles that he routinely watches. "

That has been disproven (with great ease, just as most generalizations can be). You listed "every IP address revert since 17 Feb"? And you found a grand total of five? W. has made 'prox 700 edits since 17 Feb. So less than 1% of W's edits in the last three weeks were reverts of IP edits that you think were unjustly described as vandalism? You're going to have to find much more compelling evidence than that.

"If I had provided a 'complete' list of sumaries as you suggest, this ANI would still be being compiled." So you can find a few examples out of several hundred edits, not mention that they're picked out of seven hundred edits, and you think that makes your case? This has all the earmarks of a witch-hunt. Makes me wonder if the evidence in W.'s other ANI, etc., cases, at least the ones brought by DSP, AD, and GM was as tenuous? Jeh (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the "problematic edit" by the IP (severe grammar problem) was the one you listed. Yes, it could have been improved. The fact remains that W.'s revert of the IP's edit left the article better than it had been after the IP. So we have a justified edit by W., and your complaint is that he should have done more. Got it. Jeh (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Andy, above you asked (?) what the point is. I think you or someone should ask for something specific. I looked at W's block log and this seems to be an annual affair (that somehow skipped last spring). The first block for this in 2012 was a day; the block for this in 2013 was a week. There is a clear pattern of the same behavior continuing, which is a violation of AGF and is DISRUPTIVE. So you should propose a longer time-limited block (say 2 months?) or perhaps an indef. It would probably take community consensus for either, and this is indeed the place to propose that and get consensus for it. But in the block proposal you should make a good, concise, ANI-ready statement of the case, if you want it to succeed. That is my advice anyway. Jytdog (talk) 20:51, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have better things to do than to read and memorise Wtshymanski's block log. If he has been formally warned not to behave just like he's doing here, and he's been blocked for doing it previously, then I'd agree that it might be useful for an admin to follow that precedent and act accordingly. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

You questioned whether this was an incident. With the demise of the RfC/U system, the only avenue now available to address user's behavioural issues is here at ANI (and the defunct RfC/U procedure says so). If nothing happens as a result of this, then I can only assume that the admins are granting open season on reverting other editors' posts. That may not be there intent, but it will certainly be the message. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would only ask that the admins look at the pattern of behavior here:

Please note that some incidents that would no doubt have ended up as blocks ended up instead as page protection because Wtshymanski's latest opponent (typically a new user) behaved worse, so the block log does not tell the whole story.

Also note that when Wtshymanski faces the possibility of sanctions, he typically does not defend himself but instead stops editing for a while. The old "he hasn't edited since X, so nothing to do here" trick works every time -- his RFC/U was closed with "Considering that Wtshymanski has not edited since 16 May 2012, no immediate administrative action appears required". Please don't fall for it again. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Guy's post above underlines a very major problem. The administrators are (unwittingly) exacerbating the problem. A running feature in the long history of these behavioral disputes and complaints is that whenever the administrators decline to take any action, Wtshymanski regards it as an endorsement of his attitude and behavior towards other Wikipedia users. I have lost count of the number of times, that some editor has criticised Wtshymanski on his talk page only for Wtshymanski to respond that his attitude has already been taken to ANI (or wherever) with no action and therefore it is acceptable [to the admins]. This was covered as long ago as the 2012 RfC/U. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah. Found it!

[In response to a complaint on his talk page] "... and yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest."[32] - Wtshymanski

• again, DieSwartzPunkt and Andy Dingley you have presented a bunch of evidence, which is great. But just coming here and making a complaint about a pattern of behavior generally leads no where here; the discussion will just go on and on and will eventually peter out as everyone gets exhausted. If you want something done you should make a concrete proposal for action Jytdog (talk) 14:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

It's DieSwartzPunkt who posted this, not me. I have no expectations of ANI ever acting usefully, so wouldn't have wasted the ink. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

well there is self-fulfilling prophecy if i ever saw one. OK I will do it, just so I don't have to watch this follow the sad pattern. Jytdog (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As for what action is required? Wtshymanski's battleground attitude to other editors (both registered and anonymous) has been going on for several years. Guy Macon's very comprehensive listing above is testament to that. What is required is some action to force Wtshymanski to co-operate with other editors in the manner that Wikipedia intend. This means either a series of escallating blocks until he falls into line (though this has not worked so far). Alternatively, I would suggest the proposal that was made at the 2012 RfC/U, where a set of rigourously enforced sanctions be applied against Wtshymanski. There was a good list discussed here which would be a good starting point. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Proposal 1: 3 month block on Wtshymanski

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Support - as proposer. W has a well documented, long term pattern of WP:DISRUPTIVE editing by indiscriminately reverting IP edits. Demonstrated by block log and diffs above. Jytdog (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support - as complainant. Previous block for this behaviour was one week and achieved nothing. A longer block is needed to try and get the message across. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Heres a better idea: block or interaction ban Dingley from bringing Wtshymanski to ANI again. Hes the one who has the problem. There are just three editors here who keep complaining about Wtshymanski: DieSwarzPunkt, GuyMacon and Dingley. Theyre the ones who are causing this. Wtshymanski reverts bad edits - whats even wrong with that? To find things to complain about they dragged up a RFCU case from three years ago. No one else has trouble with Wtshymanski so leave the guy alone. 82.132.234.182 (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Re: "DieSwarzPunkt, GuyMacon and Dingley": ...and Binksternet, and Bratland, and Deucharman, and Dicklyon, and EdJohnston, and Floydian, and Hasteur, and Jytdog, and N5iln, and NellieBly, and North8000, and Northamerica1000, and P-Tronics, and Rdengler, and RichardOSmith, and too many IP editors to count... --Guy Macon (talk) 16:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support. As Wtshymanski himself said, "And yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest."[33] --Guy Macon (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC) The new proposal 2 is better. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support Sadly. The evidence speaks for itself. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The complaint states that "W has a well documented, long term pattern of WP:DISRUPTIVE editing by indiscriminately reverting IP edits." But the "evidence" posted by DSP shows only five such incidents "in the last three weeks". That's five edits out of over 700 made by Wtshymanski in that time. That's quite a standard W. is being held to. Regarding the list of previous incidents so painstakingly compiled by GuyMacon, many of those were closed without action. Since the current proposal is unsupported by sufficient evidence, this turns into "let's punish him more for the past 'pattern of behavior', even though we've provided no evidence that it's continuing." That's not how AN/I works. Jeh (talk) 18:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Interesting that you are prepared to cite 700 more or less mechanical edits adding a "no" to the "living=" parameter on biographical talk pages (that do not actually seem to change anything), as justification that Wtshymanski can revert IP address editors, contributions. Unless, the is, that you yourself do not approve of IP address editors editing. Guy answered the conclusions in his missive. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I won't comment on past history, but those 5 diffs at the beginning of this section are problematic as evidence. For example, the Feb 25 edit does not refer to the IP edit just before it, but to an earlier IP edit. The Mar 2 edit was clearly subtle vandalism from an IP whose only edits have been vandalism. --I am One of Many (talk) 19:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

This point was addressed. The IP resolves to a whole college in India. These have been problematic for a long time. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Per difs provided by Jeh which refute the accusation. Edison (talk) 19:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

And have been shown to be non- evidence. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I see the case as clearly proven. I see Jeh's posting of diffs of other peoples' edits as not proving anything about Wtshymanski's behaviour at all (How was that even supposed to work?).

However I don't want to see Wtshymanski long-term blocked (or Alan Liefting, where something similar and equally counter-productive happened). We have several clear policies, one of which is AGF, others are about crediting merges, discussion with others etc. and Wtshymanski has a long, long history of ignoring any of them he feels like. However what I want to see happen instead is for him to just start bloody well behaving himself, same as the rest of us have to. I don't want this to be at the cost of excluding him altogether (if at all possible). Maybe over-optimistic, but I hope something is possible.

As an imposed action today, I'd be much more keen on some narrowly worded restriction. "Not describing non-vandalism as vandalism" would be a start. Simply not reverting IPs at all, if that's the smallest that can stick. I can't support a three month block on an editor though, even Wtshymanski. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Andy above. Just because Wtshymanski does not assume good faith doesn't mean that we should not give him a chance to correct himself. A temporary ban from reverting any IP edits may even be better than this. Epic Genius (talk) 22:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oddly, I proposed this as an alternative to the 3 month block, but got shouted down. (See edit history for more). DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Not reasonable. I advised you to withdraw a competing recommendation; you freely agreed without protest and suggested I delete the whole 2nd proposal; which I did. You just lost all credibility with me. Jytdog (talk) 01:23, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Jytdog: Since I neither reproposed the option 2 nor added a vote of support for it, what exactly is your problem? DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposal 2: revert restriction

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is indefinitely prohibited from reverting an edit without a content based edit summary. In addition, they are prohibited from referencing the original editors lack of registration status in the summary.

• Support addresses the specific concern without unduly interfering with editing of the encyclopedia. NE Ent 23:10, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Support. As I indicated with the examples I gave in User talk:Wtshymanski#rv V ?, it can be very difficult to figure out who was reverted and why from Wtshymanski's edit summaries. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:38, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment That's a completely valid concern, and goes with the "content-based edit summary" requirement, but I don't see how it's related to "can't refer to anon status". Will the WP default edit summary for reverting an IP edit be changed for Wtshymanski? Or will he be required to remove it? That would seem to me to make it even harder to figure out who was reverted. Jeh (talk) 02:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
    • He is (often but not always) removing the standard "Undid revision X by Y" (which does not refer to a users registration status, although you can infer it if it list an IP) now, and instead using edit summaries such as "rv anon v" that do refer to a users registration status. Leaving in the default edit summary would not violate this proposed restriction. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:31, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. First, this proposal is not matched by a specific complaint that the proposal will address. (Which btw is why the following lengthy screed is here under my vote, instead of in the "discussion after complaint" section where it belongs.) DSP's original complaint was that W. reverts "any and all" IP edits; that is obviously false. Subsequent discussion was all over the place, but I don't see any specific complaints that are complementary to this proposal.

I suppose we can infer that the goalposts have now been moved the complaint has been changed to "W. frequently does not provide content-based edit summaries, and refers to IP edits disparagingly in edit summaries." But no evidence has been presented to support those complaints. A report of an "incident" here is supposed to be supported by diffs that are clear illustrations of the problem behavior. The only clear evidence here is DieSwartzPunkt (talk · contribs)'s five diffs, but those were originally compiled to support the "W. reverts any and all IP edits" complaint, not this. But those are all we have. So, taking them in order:

• 17 Feb: Edit summary of W.'s revert was content-based ("out of place unclear and ungrammatical") and did not mention "lack of registration status" outside of WP's default summary for a revert of an IP edit. (Re the quality of the revert, though that does not seem to be anything being addressed by this proposal: I would note that "high starting resistance" does not sound like a positive attribute for any electric motor under any circumstances. Granted that W. could have reworded instead of reverting, W's revert nevertheless left the article better than the IP's edit did.) Score: Zero support for the supposed complaint.
• 18 Feb: This is the "not visible so it's not light" revert. I agree that W.'s revert was a mistake, but the edit summary was content-based ("IR not visible") and only used the WP default wording for a revert of an IP edit. Score: Zero support for the supposed complaint.
• 25 Feb: This is the "restored deleted PROD" case. In this case W. did write "rv anon". But the WP default summary text was also present, and it also shows that the edit being reverted was by an IP. Score: one for "edit summary not content-based" but I cannot see that this unduly refers to an "anon" editor, not when WP's default message does the same.
• 25 Feb: This is the "unijunction transistor" case. W.'s edit summary is "rv anon v". Granted that this is not "content-based", but how much do we have to "content-base" a summary to defend a rv v?

DSP writes "The IP editor's edit must be assumed by the WP:AGF policy to be a good faith edit, there being no evidence to the contrary. Nevertheless, WTS has, characteristically not assumed the required good faith by reverting the edit as 'vandalism'".

But the "no evidence to the contrary" part of that assertion is absurd. Changing "unijunction" to "junction" in one place in an article titled "Unijunction transistor", and which has the word "unijunction" all over it, is pretty tough to assume to be an honest mistake. It is, rather, sadly typical of IP drive-by petty vandalism. If the IP thought the correct word was "junction" then ie should have made the change everywhere. Hence "rv v" is justified, and no further "content-based summary" is required. Score: No support for either supposed complaint. You may not agree with my conclusion, but I don't think you can say that I have no case at all. At worst, it's arguable.

n.b.: I have adopted the pronoun "ie" as a parallel to "he" or "she", to be used to refer to IPs of unknown gender.

• 02 Mar: This is the "two phase electric power" edit. Edit summary: rv v with WP standard rv of IP text. The IP changed "90" to "180". On first glance this too could be seen to be an honest mistake, since the very common split phase power used in the US has a 180 degree phase difference. But this edit was in the "this article about" section of a SeeAlso, contrasting the 90-degree "two phase electric power" with split phase power. Moreover, there's a nice diagram in the lede, which clearly shows a 90 degree phase shift; and 90 degrees is also mentioned in the lede text. The IP didn't change any of that. Further, the IP's edit history shows a clear pattern of petty changes, nearly all of which were reverted. DSP says that the IP locates to a college in India, so there might be several different people using it and no conclusion can be drawn. I would agree if there was a pattern of mostly good edits. But not here. If the IP is being used by a group of people, then it's a group of people who collectively are vandals. I would also argue that expecting an editor to do a geolocate on an IP is an unreasonable length to expect anyone to go to. It looks more to me like a desperate quest for a reason to AGF, despite evidence to the contrary. No, "rv v" is appropriate and sufficient. Score: No support for supposed complaint.

So in my opinion, only one of those diffs clearly supports the complaint that I'm assuming this proposal addresses, with one or at most two more arguable.

But even if all of them supported the complaint, do not, by themselves, demonstrate a general pattern of problem edit summaries by W. They show five edits, for which DSP apparently had to scour W.'s edit history for the last three weeks, a period during which W. made over 700 edits. Proposers need to provide evidence showing that these are more than isolated cases.

Furthermore, I really wonder how many other editors' history would stand up to this level of nitpicking? I also wonder how many of W's past AN/I and other cases were made on equally flimsy grounds?

Lastly, regarding "prohibited from referencing the original editors lack of registration status" part: When you revert an IP edit, WP automatically supplies a default summary of "Undid revision (number) by (IP address)". Are we going to require that W. change that? If not, how does the word "anon" call any undue or disparaging attention to the anonymous nature of the edit being reverted? If you do, do you really want to require W.'s reverts to not reflect the IP of the edit being reverted? That would only make it more difficult to figure out who was reverted and why, a result Guy Macon (talk · contribs) could be expected to object to, based on his statements above. Jeh (talk) 12:01, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I have to agree that the proposal above is too broad given the context. I am about to support the proposal, but with a scope restriction. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:43, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@Jeh - so your thesis here is that Wtshymanski's categorisation of these reverted edits as "vandalism" was correct?

Both of these edits (unijunction transistor and two phase power) were (to agree with Wtshymanski) ignorant and careless. They were obviously contradicted by the articles themselves, so any "careful" editor, not even a subject expert, should have had cause to question them. However a vast number of our IP editors on electrical topics are Indian college students with the confident ignorance of undergrads worldwide and an oddly (but obvious) Indian fixation on somewhat obsolescent electrical topics (I don't know what their biomedical students are learning, but their electrical engineers are taught about what the West tends to regard as museum pieces). I would lay money that these edits came from either an Indian technical college, or a bulk ISP such as BSNL. Look at synchronous motor and the perennial factor-of-two numerical errors introduced over "poles" and "pole pairs". We are waist-deep in this garbage and as someone who reverts far more poor edits to electrical topics than even Wtshymanski, I'm sick of it.

However ignorance and piss-poor teaching still isn't vandalism. Per AGF, none of us are allowed to treat it as such. As WP editors we are required to display infinite patience with clueless edits against basic common sense. Wtshymanski is no longer doing this. To be honest, I can't blame him for it. We should forgive it. However we shouldn't (as you're doing here) construct convoluted excuses for why it's "correct" to do so. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"so your thesis here is that Wtshymanski's categorisation of these reverted edits as "vandalism" was correct?" Yes. I said so. I don't think I was at all unclear. Personally I am often a little more hesitant to use the "v" in an edit summary for an IP's first edit and first mistake (e.g. the "unijunction" edit). But with the pattern seen in the history of the IP of the "two phase electric power" edit? That seems very clear to me.

Your thesis is that I'm supposed to AGF even when an edit is of a pattern very commonly used by petty vandals, even when it's from an IP with multiple previous similar edits. I think that, and your requirement of "infinite patience", is absurd. That is an absolute, a universal, and I see no support for such in WP:AGF. Please note that WP:AGF begins with a disclaimer: "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." A requirement of "infinite patience" is not at all "common sense", particularly not when the encyclopedia is being damaged repeatedly from the same IP.

I don't think I used "convoluted excuses" either. I think that was done by the apologist who noted that the IP locates to a school and therefore the IP's history of other erroneous edits is irrelevant. How is that idea consistent with WP's use of schoolblocks? Hey, in our effort to bend over backwards while touching our toes to AGF, why don't we just always assume that even if an IP goes to a private home, different family members might be using it, therefore an IP's history is always irrelevant? r-i-g-h-t.

Assuming I agree with your position here (I don't, particularly the "infinite patience" part): How do you reconcile "I can't blame him for it - we should forgive it" with your support for DSP's "reworded" proposal below?

Even if we accept that both of those edits were not v., there still is no evidence for a pattern of problematic edits. DSP says he went back three weeks in W's history and found two AGF failures. Oh my ghod, the sky will fall. Again, I ask: How many other editors' histories would stand up against this level of nitpicking? I think DSP is just a little too eager to bring ANI cases against W. Jeh (talk) 00:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

"with the pattern seen in the history of the IP"

What "pattern"? They've made a dozen edits in total. This year they've made the two phase edit and a self-reverted. Neither of these are vandalism and there is no pattern of vandalism from them. Even Checkuser regards IP data as stale after three months, but you're seeing a pattern of confirmed vandalism from it.

Do you believe in some form of demonic possession? Do you think this router has become inherently evil, and so any editor connecting via it is now forced to turn into some sort of vandal?!

Your failure to accept AGF as applying to IPs is as bad as Wtshymanski's. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:28, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah? Feel free to bring an ANI case if you think you can make it stick. Jeh (talk) 01:41, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

More constructively: If incorrect use of the "vandalism" charge by W. is what you're really concerned about, why not make a Proposal 3: "Wtshymanski is forbidden from using 'v.', 'vand.', 'vandalism', or other similar accusations of vandalism in edit summaries"? Now, as I said, even if I accept those two IP edits as not-vandalism, there is still a failure to make a case that these are anything but isolated incidents. And I think that, although a few incidents of of AGFFailure could be worthy of a warning from an admin, any long-term restriction on editing behavior needs far more proof. But at least this is a nice clean proposal with clear boundaries for what is and isn't being proposed. If you do this, be sure to make the new proposal separate from the others, unlike what DSP did. Jeh (talk) 02:03, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support with reword : The scope is too broad as it apparently attempting to address issues not raised here as Jeh observes. My support would be for a sanction worded, "A prohibition on reverting any edit from an IP address editor. This includes any that are vandalism". The latter because Wtshymanski labels good faith edits as vandalism. Any genuine vandalism will get swept up by others in the usual way. To be enforced by escallating blocks if breached. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:43, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment : One, I call a procedure violation. This is not a "support with reword"; in particular, this is not a "reword". It is a different proposal completely. You need to make a new proposal for this. (Should the closing admin assume that the previous "support"s apply to your new proposal? Why? They're for a different proposal, one that still allows W. to revert IP edits, among other differences.)

Two, I guess now the "problem" has morphed into "Wtshymanski's reverts of IPs' edits are bad, and Wtshymanski labels good faith edits as vandalism". Let's see: Out of the five diffs you posted, only two showed W. accusing of "vandalism". Re the article content, those were completely justified reverts. And in each case there is completely sufficient reason to not AGF.

That leaves two actual problem reverts by W.: One was a revert against policy (restore PROD after IP deleted it). In talk page discussion W. made clear that he was surprised that IPs were allowed to block PRODs. The first time I ran into that, I was surprised too. The other was the "IR not visible so it isn't 'light'" revert, which is a factual error on W's part, not related to reverting of an IP nor to any accusations of vandalism.

But even if we accept those, that is still only two problem edits in three weeks. You haven't shown that such problems only occur when W. reverts IPs, you haven't shown any unjustifiable charges of vandalism, and you haven't shown that any problems that are demonstrated by these edits are anything but isolated incidents.

And your attempt to cast it as a "reword", attempting to roll "support"s for the original proposal 2 into "support"s for this, is particularly egregious. Jeh (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support - but don't these "restrictions" apply to every editor anyway? Andy Dingley (talk) 20:36, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Question What are you supporting? The original Proposal 2, or DSP's so-called "reword"? Jeh (talk) 00:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • In concept. Decent edit summaries are a "best practice," not something that's generally enforced; this would make them enforceable. That's why it's not an unreasonable measure. NE Ent 10:41, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support the reworded (and it is re-worded) restriction. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 11:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support but take to ArbCom - User:Wtshymanski is seem to not understand WP:IPHUMAN, which concerns a lot of new users who decide to make some edits logged out before making an account. However, I don't think ANI is the place for this, consider taking this to WP:ARBCOM. --ToonLucas22 (talk) 21:42, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support the reworded restriction. This kind of wholesale reversion is the worst kind of WP:BITEy behavior. @NE Ent and Guy Macon: could you two please weigh in and indicate if you support the reworded restriction as well, or exclusively what was originally proposed? HiDrNick! 20:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Question What "wholesale reversion"? Five reported reverts in three weeks? Only two of them factually invalid? Jeh (talk) 00:53, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support the original (not reworded) proposal. I wanted to stay completely uninvolved, but the user convinced me at their talk page that the topic ban is needed.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:41, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I nee no proposal for a "topic ban". What "topics" is W. to be banned from editing? Jeh (talk) 00:53, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

    You are right, I did not word it in a good way. I support the proposal to restrict W from reverting edits without a content-based summary. This is indeed not a topic ban.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:06, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I fully agree with Jeh's analysis of the diffs submitted as evidence, I was about to write something very similar myself. WTS is a problematic editor and has demonstrated a prejudice against IPs in the past, but there is no justification on the evidence given here for any kind of adminstrative action against WTS. The last two diffs in particular, I would likely have reverted them myself without comment. They are obviously wrong and very possibly deliberately disruptive (and by the way, the last one is precisely WTS's area of expertise and is thus certainly not blind reversion). I wouldn't be opposed to a ban on WTS making any edit with any kind of sarcasm in the edit summary (where it cannot easily be replied to), but that would be a different thread altogether to the one here. SpinningSpark 15:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. The community is entitled to be fed up of this behaviour. This member is fed up. How much longer does the community have to wait for something to be done? Op47 (talk) 21:39, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose While I agree that edit summaries should indicate a reason for any edit, this proposal is a solution without a sufficient problem. Suggest the editor be told that "best practice" includes a reasonable statement of the reason for a revert other than simply being an edit from an IP (which is how I read the qualified support !votes above as well) . Collect (talk) 12:15, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

In the absence of action it continues...

8th Mar

IP edit: [34]

Wtshymanski revert: [35]

This was a challenge of provided information by asking for a supporting reference. The IP editor did not use the correct {{citation needed}} template - most likely due to inexperience as this is the IP editor's first edit. Wtshymanski just mechanically reverted the IP edit as usual. He could easily have been helpful and inserted the correct template, but driving away IP address editors is more important than being helpful. New and inexperienced editors often need to be assisted to become good editors. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 12:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Let's see. A proposal with only one oppose !vote, and that one from someone who appears to be OK with siding with Wtshymanski in a content dispute where there are zero citations supporting Wtshymanski and where the chairman of that IEEE 1159.1 Power Quality Measurements wrote a paper specifically to correct Wtshymanski‎'s claim.[36] This should be interesting. I will make some popcorn. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:18, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

What? I didn't side with anybody in that content dispute. I watched it, but I didn't express an opinion either way. Recently, I just asked a question, a considerable amount of time after the dispute at the article page (unless it's still going on; I haven't looked for a while). But either way, the question was just for my information, not meant to "side" with anyone—if I'd wanted to do that I'd have done it at the article talk page. And anyway, what does that have to do with anything here? Does the fact that I was unclear on how PF is calculated and what negative values would mean make my arguments here less valid? Come on, Guy, you're better than that. Jeh (talk) 10:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense. You spent the entire thread attempting to rubbish everyone else's observations on the matter and attempting to justify what Wtshymanski was doing. You even tried to claim that Wtshymanski's actions in some cases were due to his ignorance of the subject in question. Like when you tried to claim that Wtshymanski might have believed that Infra-red light wasn't light. Wtshymanski is sufficiently familiar with the technology to know that 'LED' stands for "Light Emitting Diode" and that 'infra-red light is as much light as any other variety. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 12:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

You know, DSP, posting carelessly is completely within your rights. But when you do so, you should keep in mind that everything I posted is right here for everyone to see. When it is so ridiculously easy to show that you're off base, I really have to wonder what your motivation is.

There is no support here for a blanket charge of my attempting to "justify what W. was doing". (You have a real problem with speaking in generalities; do you realize that? Do you understand what the problem is with making such claims?) I pointed out that in a couple of the whopping total of five diffs you'd provided, W's. reverts were justified. I pointed out that the five diffs you posted did not support your accusations, that the behavior they did show would not be countered by the various proposals, and that the proposals did not match up with the accusations. Nor did I try "to claim that W. might have believed that Infra-red light wasn't light." I wrote "I agree that W.'s revert was a mistake". I later wrote, referring to the same edit, "which is a factual error on W's part". Get your facts right.

I even suggested a proposal that actually would fit the complaint - W. would be forbidden from referring to "vandalism" in edit summaries. Did you miss that?

You may be thinking of my comment re. the revert of the IP's deletion of a PROD. I was thinking of this comment by W.: [37] Now, maybe I am naive for interpreting that as honest unawareness of the rules—I don't think so, since W. rarely lifts a finger to answer critics; I can't imagine him lying to do so, that would be too much trouble—but it wasn't something I just dreamed up. Jeh (talk) 21:18, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Jeh, with all due respect, I believe that the record shows that I have been bending over backwards to give Wtshymanski the benefit of the doubt, convince him to engage in a serious discussion about his behavior, and to recommend the minimum level of sanctions that I think will reduce the ongoing disruption to the engineering articles. My perception of your approach is that your are a staunch defender of Wtshymanski, that whenever anyone posts a criticism that is flawed in any way you dissect it analyze it in great detail (which is good), but when a criticism hits home (my response Wtshymanski's continued snarky comments about how right he is about negative power factor despite the reams of citations showing him that he is wrong, for example), you go silent and move on to your next talking point. In my opinion, you are an advocate, not someone who tries to support Wtshymanski when he is right (as he often is) and criticize him when he is wrong. Nothing wrong with that, of course. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:35, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Guy, I am glad you posted that. I was working on a lengthy reply to the thread over at W.'s talk page when he blanked it (as he is wont to do). Now I have another place, a better place, to put it. But I have real work to do today, so I'll get back to this later. For a short answer, though: I see many things wrong with W.'s behavior; it is just that there are so many people eager to bring AN/I cases against him that it seems superfluous for me to mention them. Meanwhile, it is puzzling to me that you read me as an "advocate" when I don't think I've done much if anything beyond calling for hewing to the standard you called for. Jeh (talk) 21:18, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

You make good point, and looking back at my comment I see that I was too harsh and aggressive. We are clearly both here to improve the encyclopedia, and I apologize for my tone. Sorry about that. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Jeh (talk) 19:19, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

@Guy Macon:: Ok, here's the long version. First: I pretty much agree with what you wrote here. Same with Dennis Bratland's "outside view" in this old RFC case.

Personally, I do think he has mellowed some in the last year or so. Still, whenever an edit of mine conflicts with one of W's I groan a little, because I'm expecting a fight. The times I haven't gotten one, I've been pleasantly surprised—and that isn't how it's supposed to be here; as was pointed out to me rather firmly in my first months, "AGF! This isn't USENET!" So even I wish he could be persuaded to take the attitude down a few notches, not to mention interact more on his talk page. It would be better for the encyclopedia, and it would be better for him: some positions he takes that I agree with (like this) would have a better chance of being heard if there wasn't such a crusty curmudgeon behind them.

But I don't like dogpiles, and I don't like witch-hunts. More specifically: I don't like zealous efforts to dig through piles of old evidence to find actionable edits, followed by trying one proposal after another to see if something sticks... even though the evidence doesn't support the complaints and the proposals don't address the real problems.

Look at DSP's flip-flopping: from his first paragraphs, which included obviously-wrong universals like "W. reverts any and all edits by IPs"; then switching from one proposal to another when the first collects objections... and branding his own as a "reword" when its intended results had very little in common with what it was supposedly a reword of. ~"We found five problem edits (out of 700) in the last three weeks! Surely there's enough here to get him blocked, or banned from doing SOMEthing!" It really makes DSP look desperate, and since DSP, AD, and GM almost never disagree with each other where W. is concerned, the appearance of desperation is shared around.

And look at some of the reactions to my objections. AD dismisses me with an ad hom: ~"Well, you're W.'s friend, so of course you rush in to defend him." (Dare I suggest AGF, in a complaint thread that's about AGF?) DSP accuses me of saying the exact opposite of what I actually said re the "IR not visible" edit. (I notice that he's "gone silent" on that point.) Similarly, over at W's talk page, an admin claims I said that all of W's reverts were justified! Just how un-carefully do you have to read to conclude such things? Perhaps something that could be called "Wtshymanski derangement syndrome" is involved. I'm partly serious there. I suggest that Wtshymanski's generally... let's call it brusque attitude leads those who are most offended by him to scrutinize his edits far more closely, and find fault far more often, than they would with most other editors.

I see it again in DSP's jumping on W's rv of an IP's edit to the BASIC article. Yes, at first glance it looks like the IP was correct and that W was wrong to revert. Another bogus revert of an IP by Wtshymanski! Throw another log on the pyre! Oh wait. At second glance it looks very much otherwise; see talk:BASIC for further discussion. Editors there have carefully examined the refs and decided for now at least that W's revert was correct. There is still more evidence to be looked at, but the point here is that it looks to me as if DSP jumped too easily to the conclusion that W.'s revert was wrong, motivated as he was to add more weight to this complaint.

In short, I raised objections to this complaint/series of complaints/series of proposals against W. not because I think W. is beyond reproach, nor because I'm his "friend", but because I don't think the complaints or proposals are justified by the evidence, and I don't think the proposals address the real issues (those being a pattern of general, but generally mild, incivility, and near-complete refusal to engage in discussion). And I don't think anybody should be the target of the sorts of tag-teaming, lets-get-him-on-something campaign I see here.

Yes, of course "Everybody knows" W. is hasty to revert IPs. That's what the complaint was here, and he's been taken to ANI a lot before (though not for a pattern of being hasty to revert IPs), so of course it must be true. But a few point examples don't prove it. Nevertheless an admin showed up and seemed only too eager to take up the banner. That admin even claimed that it was legitimate to conclude that any given revert of W's was likely erroneous just because W. has been taken to ANI, etc., more often than most. ("This guy's had three tickets this year; let's write him for speeding again even though we haven't so much as clocked him!") This is the same revert I mentioned DSP jumping on above, and the sources show that W.'s revert was correct. The admin mentioned "statistics," but cited no numbers, only personal impressions. As Guy Macon said here, a lot of things that "everybody knows" turn out to be not true. Bottom line: If we're supposed to take it as proven that Wtshymanski is overly revertful of IP edits, then let's see some numbers that prove that charge. I don't agree that general impressions shared by the hive mind are sufficient, particularly for someone who edits as much as Wtshymanski does. And especially when someone is calling for a three-week block.

The current complaint started out with "not even wrong" universal claims ("W. reverts any and all edits by IPs") and did not improve after that. What we're left with is "W. has misbehaved a lot in the past, and here are a tiny handful of problem edits; let's make up some proposals that address some very specific issues with these edits." That's not the way to bring an AN/I case, and the proposals made here are not going to do anything for the real problems.

That is all. I've spent way too much time on this. Last words are everyone else's. I'm banning myself from the next three W.-related ANI threads, at least. Jeh (talk) 09:45, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Jeh. In particular, the "W. reverts any and all edits by IPs" claim was stupid, and we all -- myself included -- need to work harder on only supporting claims where there is solid evidence, and objecting whenever claims are overreaching. Jeh, I still feel bad about going off half cocked in my first reply to you. That was wrong, and again I apologize.

This is my final comment here, so in closing I am going to repost something I wrote to Wtshymanski[38] in response to his writing "Suddenly I'm the biggest threat to Wikipedia since Essjay", and which he deleted without response.

"No, you are not the biggest threat to Wikipedia since Essjay. What you are is someone who refuses to simply engage in a dialog about your behavior, forcing multiple frustrated editors to take to to ANI in the hope that an admin will intervene. Your every interaction drips with sarcasm and disdain for anyone who dares to disagree with you, and you never admit defeat, even in cases such as negative power factor where you have never, ever been able to produce a single cite supporting your position after it became clear (the author himself told you so) that the IEEE standard had an error in it. You piss people off, and not just a few of them. Some withdraw in frustration, some misbehave in retaliation, and a few keep trying to reduce the disruption to the encyclopedia. Your actual level of disruption is actually rather mild compared to most cases, but it drives people crazy when they cannot get you to simply talk over your differences like adults. But of course you know all of this." --Posted by Guy Macon (talk) to Wtshymanski's talk page on 20:07, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I can only hope that Wtshymanski decides to be more cooperative and collegial with other editors, realizing that at least some of us have the same goals of improving the Encyclopedia that he has. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to break my self-imposed exile here because I'm not replying to an argument (I honestly think I've said all I will ever have to say in this thread). Rather I'm just saying "thank you". Guy, you had apologized previously and I was completely satisfied with that. My missive above was not intended to elicit more of the same, simply to explain further why I've been following the path I've been following. In any case, thank you again for stopping to "listen" to my POV. Jeh (talk) 14:53, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Still no action and the problem continues

13th Mar

1st IP edit: [39]: 2nd IP edit: [40]

Wtshymanski revert: [41]

This was a case of two for the price of one. Wtshymanski got to revert two good faith edits from two different IP editors at the same time. The first IP added a co-creator of BASIC to the article. A definitely good faith addition because it was entirely correct. The second IP linked the added name to the Wikipedia article (so also good faith). Wtshymanski, in less than an hour, reverted both edits. He was more interested in reverting the IP edits than whether what they had added was correct. Had Wtshymanski, followed the added link to the Wikipedia article, he whould have discovered than not only that Mary Kenneth Keller indeed had co-created BASIC but that it was reliably and verifiably referenced. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:58, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I put a fairly strong warning and I feel that the next revert should result in a block. Since I am not involved (in fact, did not hear about this user until today), I will have no hesitation to block them myself, but of course any uninvolved administrator can do it.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:04, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Now someone objected me at the talk page, got me involved in the discussion, and I can not be considered as uninvolved any more.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:21, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Related: Info on Sister Mary Kenneth Keller (PDF). --Guy Macon (talk) 15:10, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! Some action at last. I have taken the liberty of copying the reference from the Mary Kenneth Keller article to the BASIC article so it is unreferenced no longer. It should not have been necessary for someone else to do this, as Wtshymanski could easily have been helpful to the newbie IP editors and done the same. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 18:01, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I have just found yet another reversion of a good faith edit that was perfectly valid. But since the edit was made before the warning was posted to Wtshymanski's talk page, I shall demonstrate some good faith and let it go. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 18:01, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

We have admin eyes on the issue, so I think it is time for me to stop commenting and let this either be closed or time out and be archived. I still think that some admin should look at the totality of Wtshymanski's behavior (ANI was touted as the replacement for RFC/U, after all) instead of playing Whac-A-Mole as a slow but steady stream of ANI complaints are filed. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:06, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

"Working on" some project under the direction of the two acknowledged inventors did not make Sister Keller the "co-inventor." Kemeny and Kurtz are stated to be the inventors /developers of Basic in countless reliable sources, which say they supervised a team of students who did the implementation. Apparently Keller was one of those students, probably a graduate student. The refs provided only show her to have been one of the worker-bees. It is O.R to list her as a third, co-equal developer of Basic. There is a discussion on the talk page of the article on the Basic language as to Keller's role. Edison (talk) 03:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

This does not belong here. This is a discussion of the editing habits of one editor. Regardless of whether Mary Kenneth Keller co-invented BASIC or not, this is a discussion on whether Wtshymanski was correct or not to revert the edits adding her to the inventors of the article. He may (or may not) be factually correct, but the IP address that added the information can definitely be assumed to have acted in good faith because the Mary Kenneth Keller article contains the very claim supported by a reference where it has stood unchallenged since the article was created back in June 2012. I am not in a position to say if Wtshymanski has any knowledge of the inventors of BASIC, but he certainly provided no evidence to support his reversion of the edits. His edit comment acompanying the revert of, "no, not really", is, at best, nothing more than a statement of personal knowledge or possibly original research.

Looking at this as an uninvolved user, who is right and who is wrong about Mary Keller is entirely beside the point. Two IP address based editors made what must be regarded as good faith edits from the points made above. Their edits were reverted based on nothing more than personal knowledge or original research. To my outside view, that means that this example fits with the general thrust of this ANI complaint. If the good faith edit was wrong, then it requires correction, but that requires supporting references and evidence. A reversion without such evidence, given the referencing at the linked article, is wrong - and that is exactly what happened. I grant that several editors are now questioning the reliability of the referencing, but that discussion was not available to the two IP address editors at the time of their good faith edits so that is entirely moot. –LiveRail < Talk > 11:54, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I tried to make exactly the same point at the user's talk page, without much success: My opponents think that per WP:V these edits MUST be reverted.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

So WTS was wrong to revert unsourced information on the basis that the same claim is made in another Wikipedia article? Come on, we repeatedly tell newbies they can't use Wikipedia articles as references. And whatever happened to WP:V and the principle that it is the responsibility of the challenged editor to provide a source? I cannot agree that "who is right and who is wrong about Mary Keller is entirely beside the point". The entire complaint here about WTS is that he is alleged to revert IPs without regard to the quality of their edits. An example where he is shown to be right, or at least knowledgable editors in the subject believe him to be right, absolutley does not count as evidence towards that behaviour. Nor should it be taken as a breach of any previous warning. SpinningSpark 19:11, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point. This is not about one reversion of an IP edit. This is about a policy that Wtshymanski has toward all IP address editors and their edits. Wtshymanski has freely admitted in the course of this ANI that he does routinely revert all edits from IP editors with the exception of one per year. It would seem that the one per year is solely so that any claim that he revets all IP edits can be refuted - which in fact he has tried on. However, it seems to not be impressing many people except the gullible. The admin who posted the statement to Wtshymanski's talk page telling him that he will be blocked if he does it again has apparently researched the history and found that it is true. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not missing the point at all and I take exception to the implication that I am gullible. I realise this thread is not just about one IP edit, but you have utterly failed to provide the evidence by way of multiple credible diffs that there is a current and ongoing problem. The claim that Shymanski has admitted to reverting all IP edits is preposterous. You are referring to this which is proof by counterexample with a heavy dollop of typical WTS sarcasm. The one per year are counterexamples to the claim that all IP edits are reverted, not an admission of it. SpinningSpark 10:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

This has already been researched. You certainly are gullible if you believe that Wtshymanski's 'one-per-year' list are 'counter-examples'. Not one (none, zip, zilch) of the examples given in that post are counter-examples of routine reversion of IP edits in any shape or form - it's a standard Wtshymanski smoke-screen. All of the edits provided are just routine addition of information; copy-editing the article to make it clearer or correction of grammar and usage - all of which are legitimate edits (even if originally introduced by an IP editor) and are not the subject of this ANI. As said: not one is an example of a failure to revert a good faith edit (or any immediately preceeding edit) by an IP editor.

A counter-example (for the purposes of this ANI) has to be a good faith edit made by an IP editor to an article that Wtshymanski regularly watches (basically all the engineering articles), that was not reverted. You can go through Wtshymanski's edit history but you won't find one - it's already been done.

However, this is all academic as sentence has been pronounced. This ANI is ready for archiving. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:05, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

It's funny that you can't actually provide diffs of this alleged routine reversion. And I don't see any "sentence" having been pronounced. SpinningSpark 18:24, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

You're not following this are you? I provided all the diffs since 17th Feb - seven of them (this ignores one that occured before admin intervention because I discovered it afterwards). The examples go back years, but as I explained in the original complaint, I would still be typing them in if I documented all that occured here. A snapshot looking back one month was adequate to the task. All the diffs are fully documented here and you can search for them yourself. There is no example of any edit from an IP editor (good faith or otherwise) being allowed to remain in any article routinely watched by Wtshymanski. An admin took action here. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 14:28, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

You're the one who is not following, or else has a bad case of IDHT. I said above that I do not accept that your seven diffs adequately demonstrate the alleged behaviour and I fully support Jeh's analysis of them. Most of them are perfectly reasonable reverts that any of us could have done. As I also said, Shymanski is a problematic editor, but let's not take action in the spirit of a witch hunt on the basis of flimsy evidence. SpinningSpark 18:44, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to disagree with you. But never mind ... DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

It still continues...

Despite Ymblanter's warning on his talk page.

19th Mar

IP edit: [42]

Wtshymanski revert: [43]

This is an identical revert to the 8th Mar one above but against a different IP editor. This was a challenge of information by asking for a supporting reference. It is fairly clear that it was the magnitude of the unreferenced numbers that was being challenged. The IP editor did not use the correct template - most likely due to inexperience as this is the IP editor's first edit. Wtshymanski just mechanically reverted the IP edit as usual . He could easily have been helpful and inserted the correct template (or better still a reference - which I was easily able to do), but driving away IP address editors is more important than being helpful. New and inexperienced editors often need to be assisted to become good editors and this is a classic case where this needs to be done.

19th Mar

IP edit: [44]

IP edit self revert: [45]

Wtshymanski revert: [46]

The first IP edit is where he made an uncited change to the century in which arc welding was developed and added some nonsense text. The second IP edit is where he self reverted his change back to what the article read before he edited (I have no problem where someone self reverts things that are not right - good faith demands that I have to assume it was a mistake). However Wtshymanski, as usual, sees the IP editor's second edit and mechanically reverts it - without even bothering to check that a reversion is even warranted. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Ouch, yeah that revert they did clearly shows no thought or investigation into what the user is actually reverting. 129.9.75.248 (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. That last revert has to be considered as proof positive that the basis of this ANI complaint is completely sound. In view of the fact that Wtshymanski has made two more unwarranted reverts of IP edits despite being specifically warned not to do so must be regarded as blatant defiance. Because Wtshymanski is making it abundantly clear that he is not even prepared to heed a specific warning given to him by an administrator, I would call upon the warning administrator (or any administrator) to implement the block that was threatened. Because this is a specific vendetta directed at potential future editors of Wikipedia, that block cannot be anything other than an indefinite block as it is clear that Wtshymanski is WP:NOTHERE to collaborate with others on building an encyclopedia. –LiveRail < Talk > 16:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

They managed to involve me to the discussion, so that I can not be considered uninvolved anymore, and will not block them.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:44, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Are we really to believe that an IP that writes "fack information about this" has made a good faith mistake. Shymanski's error was not that the IP did not deserve reverting, but rather, that he did not revert far enough. That is an argument for giving Shymanski rollback so he can more easily avoid that mistake in the future rather than blocking him for what was actually a good faith mistake on his part. SpinningSpark 18:43, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, you could just AGF, and assume the IP meant to type "lack information about this" at the end of an unsourced paragraph, unaware of {{cn}}. That would make a certain amount of sense for an inexperienced "newbie" edit, unfamiliar with how to add or challenge material. Just saying. Worth at least trying to ascertain the intent, maybe, or ask for a source, rather than an incorrect partial revert with the summary "not really", showing no attempt to examine the overall change before undoing it. Especially in the current circumstances. Begoon ^talk 09:54, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Once again, you have completely missed the point. I suggest you re-read the summary of what Wtshymanski did. It is not a question that he did not revert back far enough. The IP editor had already reverted his own incorrect edit and removed the nonsense phrase that he had added. The article was thus in exactly the same state as it was before he made any edits. There was nothing to roll back. Wtshymanski simply reverted the last edit (the revert) without actually checking to see what it did and as a result, effectively vandalised the article albeit probably unwittingly - but that is not the point. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:15, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe this is the ANI I'm being asked to respond to. I see I have accidentally reverted good edits as well as vandalism. Often if I only see the vandalism edit in the diff I go back to the previous version without checking if it, too is valid. I often check the edit history before reverting to make sure I'm going back to a good version; I have neglected that in some cases where the vandalism was small. I will check the edit history more carefully before reverting. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:22, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I move that this be closed as "no action required". I consider Wtshymanski to be completely honest and trustworthy (our disagreements lie elsewhere) and if he says he will be more careful that should be the end of it. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:03, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

As I stated aove, I can accept someone making a (or several similar) mistake(s). The real art in making a mistake is to learn from them and not to repeat them. I agree this can be closed on the basis of Wtshymanski's statement above. I have little doubt that if he does err again, we will get to know about it. As a user who is uninvolved in the complaint made here, I shall be bold and close this case. –LiveRail < Talk > 13:00, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Reopened - Not resolved

I have taken the liberty of re-opening this ANI because the matter does not seem to have been resolved. An anonymous editor has made this edit to MOS Technology 6502. Another unrelated user has removed an unsourced and frankly unencyclopeadic sentence.

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs) has reverted the good faith addition made by the anonymous editor. I do not feel that this is the place to debate whether the intended reversion was right ot wrong (that belongs elsewhere). But what does belong here is that Wtshymanski in reverting the anonymous edit has reintroduced the unsourced and unencyclopeadic content. Wtshymanski, has therefore not checked the edit history or what he was reverting as he promissed to do in his statement above. It is my belief that he was just routinely and mechanically reverting the anonymous edit because it was an anonymous edit as he has done so frequently in the past. 86.145.211.167 (talk) 14:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Can and ANI be re-opened once closed? As the closer: If it can then I concur and support the re-opening on the grounds given. The IP edit has to be regarded as good faith edit (adding more trivia to a pre-existing trivia section). I am not convinced that articles benifit from lists of trivia, but as noted that is whole different debate. This was a good faith edit whose reversion is questionable. The matter at point here is that the reversion carelessly re-introduced material that had already been deleted by another user. That should not have happened if Wtshymanski had learnt from this experience. –LiveRail < Talk > 15:28, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

This has gotten a lot of attention already, no need to re-open. Chillum 15:34, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

This has got a lot of attention and for very good reasons. There is a serious problem here and it it would seem to require some action. As things stand, it would appear that Wtshymanski is taking absolutely no notice whatsoever of any of the comments that have been made here, the warning placed on his talk page or his own proposal in the previous section. If the examples provided here really are examples of routine reversion of IP editor's edits as has been suggested more than once, then that is totally unacceptable. This ANI now documents ten examples of reverts to IP edits (over a period of just five weeks). While some are more obvious than others, I think that if all ten are viewed together, there is a clear case. –LiveRail < Talk > 16:00, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• Just driving by here, I agree that this is far from resolved. Wtshymanski's indiscriminate reverting of anonymous contributions is extremely WP:BITEy and WP:OWNy, and needs to stop immediately. There was a proposal above that I read as prohibiting the user from reverting any anonymous contributions, and I think that is the absolute minimum required. They either cannot tell the difference between good-faith contributions and intentional vandalism, or they don't care. The evidence presented above suggests the latter, but regardless of which it actually is, W's indiscriminate reverting is causing a whole lot more disruption than if they just left IP edits for someone else to judge. They should also read WP:IPs are human too, which in the lede has this to say about indiscriminately reverting IPs: "This practice is against the philosophy of Wikipedia and founding principles of all Wikimedia projects." Continued violation should result in blocks. Ivanvector (talk) 15:40, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

While I think that ANI discussions are rarely productive once they get this old I am happy to let the discussion continue. Chillum 15:53, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Probably right, but usually because the issue either resolves itself or makes its way to Arbcom or something. Neither is the case here, at least not yet. I was working on making a new thread when this was reopened. Ivanvector (talk) 15:55, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Any chance of a clue as to what was going to be in it? –LiveRail < Talk > 16:01, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Just what I posted above, with reference to this thread and the fact that I had started a new one because an administrator enforced closing the unresolved one. Procedural nonsense, basically. Ivanvector (talk) 16:06, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the promotion, but I am not an administrator. I am a relatively uninvolved ordinary editor who has had minimal interaction with Wtshymanski, and whose only real knowledge of this matter is what is here and in the editing history. It is not uncommon for ANI complaints to be closed with a statement of intent to do things differently from the complainee. Wtshymanski made such a statement above and I did what we all aspire to do and assumed it was made in good faith. It would seem that, on this ocassion, I was wrong. –LiveRail < Talk > 16:32, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify for the sake of completeness, by "an administrator enforced..." I was referring to Chillum reinstating your close after 86.145.x.x reopened. I hadn't actually looked at your userrights, and also am not an administrator myself. Ivanvector (talk) 19:05, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

The proposal above (proposal 2) was not a restriction on reverting IP edits (I had to read it again because I thought you were right). It was a more wide ranging restriction on reversions that some other users had issues with. But: I like your thinking and accordingly, I shall propose ... –LiveRail < Talk > 16:16, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• I've gone and reverted the change on MOS Technology 6502 by Wtshymanski and put the page on my watchlist. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 16:43, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposal 4: Revert restriction

That Wtshymanski be banned from reverting any edit made by an editor using an IP address, broadly construed. This to include not only a direct reversion of such an edit (using the (undo) feature) but also indirectly reverting by copy-pasting text from a previous version of any article.

• Support: This has to be any edit, because although I am aware that Wtshymanski does sweep up vandalism and 'undesireable' edits but, as Ivanvector states above, they would soon be swept up by others. A ban on reverting vandalism is warranted because the examples in the ANI reveal a tendency to revert good faith edits as vandalism when they are not. –LiveRail < Talk > 16:16, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support (as co-proposer?) per my comments above. Wtshymanski's contributions are highly appreciated, however apparent repeated failures to distinguish others' highly appreciated contributions from clear vandalism have led to behaviour against the spirit of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and their pledge to discontinue such behaviour was moot given this lack of awareness. Ivanvector (talk) 16:24, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, not just those with accounts. Wtshymanski needs to be put under 0RR with regard to anonymous edits. This kind of WP:BITEy behaviour should not be tolerated. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 16:30, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support Enough's enough. Wtshymanski clearly has no respect for IP editors, no competence to check that he's reverting correctly and no intention of even complying with the feeble restrictions previously agreed. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:09, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I think more people are starting to see what I am on about here. This is basically the reword I proposed of Option 2 above, so I have to support it. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 17:27, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Good proposal and well worth doing, but I don't think it will solve the underlying problem, which is why I posted proposal 5 below while still supporting this proposal. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:45, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Even better idea than option 2 above. Op47 (talk) 21:45, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as my general position on Draconian solutions. I suggest the position that he be asked to give better summaries is reasonable, but bans in such a case do not "solve" much at all. The seeing multiple IP edits problem and "reverting the wrong one" is not rare on Wikipedia, alas, but singling out one editor is not the solution - one should propose on an appropriate policy page language on the order of "reverting any edit made by an IP primarily on the basis that the edit was made by an IP, is improper" or the like. Where it is the policy or guideline one has a problem with, that is what should be emended. Collect (talk) 12:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC) Collect (talk) 12:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support If you want Wtshymanski to change for the better, this is what needs to be done. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Missing example from above

For the sake of completeness of the history of this routine reversion of IP edits, there is one example of a revert to an IP edit that I left out because it was made before Ymblanter posted his warning to Wtshymanski's talk page. I feel it would be apposite to now include it - as I say for completeness.

13th Mar

IP edit: [47]

Wtshymanski revert: [48]

This was a good faith edit adding the 'Ω' symbol to the text of the article. Wtshymanski just mechanically reverted the edit with a the edit summary, "already in the lead (sic)". Whilst it is true that it was in the lede, the lede is meant to be a summary of the main part of the article (per WP:LEAD). Thus it was quite proper for the IP editor to add it. I note that someone else objected and restored it after Wtshymanski reverted my restoration. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 17:44, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

More reversion of good faith

23rd Mar

IP edit: [49]

Wtshymanski revert: [50]

Once again a good faith edit from an IP editor where he has added a 'see also' that links to an article that is a valid application of the subject of the article. Wtshymanski has just routinely reverted the edit claiming 'low relevance'. It is not of low relevance, SCSI was a mainstream application of the D-subminiature connector. Indeed: I have several SCSI drives that use the connectors. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Reference showing relevance: [51] --Guy Macon (talk) 19:38, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposal 5: A well-crafted set of restrictions

Consider this a mini-test of the theory that ANI can handle the function formerly handled by RFC/U.

Proposal 4, while good, only covers one aspect of Wtshymanski's behavior, leaving ANI in the position of playing Whac-A-Mole forever with Wtshymanski and with a series of new editors who are goaded into serious misbehavior after interacting with Wtshymanski. I would ask that a close look be given to the patterns of behavior shown here:

• Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wtshymanski
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive866#Wtshymanski hammering his personal knowledge into articles again
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive841#User Wtshymanski refusing to follow the merge procedure when merging articles
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#Unilateral redirects without merging as stated in edit summaries - User:Wtshymanski
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive683#Request for admin attention re: proposed deletion of multiple electronics components articles
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive690#Wtshymanski failing to work collaboratively
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive138#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Floydian .28Result: Stale.29
• Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 36#Power factor
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive257#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:85.255.233.193 (Result: Protected)
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive172#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Guy Macon (Result: declined, semi-protected)
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive149#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:24.177.120.74 (Result: page protected)
• Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance/archive103#Wtshymanski and the transistor AfDs

I propose that Wtshymanski be given a carefully crafted set of community restrictions that will allow him to do good work without doing those things that the community finds disruptive.

I further propose that the community restrictions be enforced in the following manner, and not according to our traditional "do nothing, do nothing, do nothing, drop a piano on him" custom.

1st failure to follow a community restriction: warning. 2nd: warning. 3rd: 24 hour block. 4th: 2-day block. 5th: 4-day block, then 8 and so on, escalating to at least 64 days before considering an indefinite block.

This does not imply immunity from other blocks -- this only applies to this specific set of community restrictions. Also, it must be the same specific restriction; no combining. In other words, he can fail to follow each individual restriction twice without any blocks.

Specific restrictions

This is my idea of what specific restrictions will work, but I am completely open to a revised or even completely different list. The core of my proposal is that there be a well-crafted set of restrictions enforced with the escalating warnings/sanctions detailed above, not the specific set of restrictions chosen.

• No sarcasm or personal comments in edit summaries. All edit summaries must be a neutrally-worded and accurate description of the edit. No misleading edit summaries.

• No activities that delete articles without discussion. In other words, WP:AFD is allowed, WP:PROD or WP:MERGE without prior discussion on the article talk page is not.

• Three or perhaps five minutes between edits in article space except for minor typo corrections. This will give him time to be more careful and to make better use of the preview feature.

• Normal 3RR restriction reduced to 2RR.

I would also encourage more administrators to warn Wtshymanski when he violates WP:CIVIL. He is usually responsive to warnings from admins and tones it down for a while when he gets one. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:32, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd go as far as suggest 1RR or even 0RR. But otherwise, I support this and I'd say first choice over prop 4. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 19:52, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Remember, we have a really, really long history of various editors coming to ANI about Wtshymanski and nothing being done. A lot of this is because the cases were filed by newbies who ended up behaving worse than Wtshymanski, but a lot of it is because each individual case shows Wtshymanski being somewhat disruptive but not as bad as most of the other disruptive editors we see reported here. I think we should ask for the bare minimum amount of restrictions that will get the job done. Otherwise we risk yet another ANI case that confirms Wtshymanski's observation: "And yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest."[52] 2RR can always be changed to 1RR or 0RR if needed. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. They can probably be left with 3RR, even, with a 1RR or 0RR restriction only with regard to IP edits. In any case, better to just get this out the door than dicker about everything and let Wtshymanski's disruptive reverts continue. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 22:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Guy, you have always stated (and I have always agreed) that we should be scrupulously fair and equitable with how we treat Wtshymanski. This ANI deals with a specific trait of Wtshymanski's attitude towards other users of Wikipedia. Whilst I cannot help but agree that there are other aspects of that behaviour that require addressing, they have not been the subject of this ANI. Any sanctions should be limited to addressing the specific complaint(s) made which are those that Wtshymanski has been given the opportunity of answering and/or making his own proposals as to the way forward. That Wtshymanski has chosen not to adequately answer those points is neither here nor there and entirely his choice but I believe that we are entitled to assume that he has no intention of co-operating. I have addressed this again below.

On the other hand, if you wish to raise a suplementary ANI and link it to this one, that might be a different matter, but we do seem to be heading toward a world record on the length of an ANI (both temporally and spatially). DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:09, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposal 6: indefinite block

I have no prior interaction with Wtshymanski (that I know of) but I have seen the thread above and the threads which Guy Macon linked, and I see an editor who has wasted an inordinate amount of the community's time in trying to correct their behaviour. Whatever useful contributions they may have (and they do, unquestionably) they are shrouded by being repeatedly dragged before the drama courts for the same behavioural transgressions over and over and over and over again. Their block log, while short, shows that they're not getting the message that this behaviour is intolerable.

With respect to Guy Macon, who based on reading the threads posted above has a long history of interactions with this editor, a "well-crafted set of restrictions" can only waste more of the community's time dealing with this editor who in Guy's own words "figures out exactly where the line is that will get him blocked and stands with his toes over the line" ([53]). Here are some things that other users have had to say about Wtshymanski over the years:

• "It seesm [sic] to me that Wtshymanski actually welcomes such a complaint, because when the decision comes down in his favour, it underwrites his offensive and offhand attitude." --DieSwartzPunkt [54]
• "His negative effects _on_others_ far outweigh any positive contribution. His effects on articles aren't great either, but it's his _toxic_ effect on other editors that's the worst of it." --Andy Dingley, emphasis in original [55]
• "In my opinion, many of these newbie editors could grow into very productive editors if they don't leave in disgust after tangling with Wtshymanski." --Guy Macon [56]
• "Wtshymanski needs to be given a substantive motivation to change his demeanor, and if his behavior does not improve, then stronger remedies should be used." --Dennis Bratland [57]
• "And yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest." --attributed to Wtshymanski but I have not found the actual diff

This is a tendentious editor who has been warned time and time again about their behaviour, and who each time backs off just enough to escape admin action and formal sanction, then returns to the same tendentious behaviours. Accordingly, each time the administrators fail to act, even more of the community's time is wasted. Enough of this. Although it may be in good faith, editors like this do not improve the encyclopedia, they hinder and obstruct (and drive away) other editors who do improve it. Thus I propose that Wtshymanski be indefinitely blocked from editing Wikipedia, with consideration for the WP:STANDARDOFFER after six months. Ivanvector (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Diff for "And yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest.":[58] --Guy Macon (talk) 07:36, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• Option of last resort. Wtshymanski does contribute some good edits in various technical topics, but their reverts and incivil edit summaries leaves much to be desired. I'd rather see the editor banned from further reverting edits, but allow them to continue adding content -- with the warning that further incivil behaviour will lead to an indefinite block. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 22:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• Undecided. Support. While I agree with everything Ivanvector says, as I mentioned before I strongly dislike the standard ANI "do nothing, do nothing, do nothing, drop a piano on him" practice. At what point does continued refusal to act become de-facto permission to keep acting that way? And is it really fair to suddenly decide that this time we really mean it after leading him to believe that there would never be any consequences as long as he only stuck his toes over the line? Then again, surely he has seen it happen to others, and maybe, just maybe, a block then a return under the standard offer will finally convince Wtshymanski to work collaboratively. I really don't know the answer. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:08, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• Upon careful consideration, I have concluded that the disruption outweighs the contributions and thus I support an indefinite community block (as well as supporting the other, weaker remedies). --Guy Macon (talk) 00:18, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose see past comments. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• Stongly Support: I speak as an editor who edits from an IP address. I don't claim to be Wikipedia's greatest editor, but I certainly do not vandalise articles or add meaningless content (or at least not intentionally - we all make mistakes from time to time). All edits that I have made to engineering related articles have been reverted by Wtshymanski, always for some frivolous reason, and sometimes with an uncivil edit summary making it clear that I am not wanted. I do not edit anywhere near as frequently as I used to because of the hostile environment created by Wtshymanski. As an affected contributor, and in view of the minimal genuine contribution supplied by Wtshymanski, it is very clear to me that Wikipedia would be a far better environment without Wtshymanski. Indef block him. He has never been here to colaborate on building an encyclopedia. When I do find an article area that is not regularly patroled by Wtshymanski, I have no difficulty in making positive contribution without the continual reverts ([59] - under a previous dynamic IP). 86.149.139.47 (talk) 09:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

We should not indef an editor because it will make WP better, just if that's the only way to make it better. How do you feel about a ban on IP reverts (and only a ban on IP reverts)? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:24, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

This post is of considerable import bearing in mind that it does come from an editor directly affected by the issue being discussed. What he says is of the greatest relevance and has nailed perfectly the points that I have been endeavouring to make. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:34, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support We should definitely be indeffing people who are wasting the community's time with the same crap over and over and over again. Perhaps if this was done more often, there'd be fewer repeat offenders like this guy. Jtrainor (talk) 12:00, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Really Draconian = really poor idea. Collect (talk) 12:23, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Let's try and wrap this up

From the discussion above on the complaint and the various proposals made, it seems that there is a general consensus that there is a problem with Wtshymanski routinely reverting edits made by IP editors against the general policy of Wikipedia (noting that there was a groundswell of consensus as more examples became available).

Also of great relevance is that Wtshymanski has declined to answer or comment on the points raised in this ANI beyond a statement he made above that he would exercise more care in reverting edits. A statement which he promptly ignored on his very next editing session with two such reverts.

There is also a broad consensus that action of some sort should be taken with opinions varying as to what.

The greatest support is for Proposal 4 the restriction on reverting any IP based edits (7 8 support 1 oppose).

There is a lesser consensus for Option 6 - Indefinite block. (3 4 support 2 oppose 2 1 abstention).

There is a lesser consensus for Option 5 - a broader range of restrictions (2 support 1 oppose).

Unless anyone has anything to add, I move that Option 4, the restriction on reverting any edits for IP address editors be implemented. Enforcement to be via a series of escalating blocks. I note that the last block for unco-operative editing was for one week, so the first block for the first deviation from the restriction should be for one month escalating as required (3 and then 6 months?). Upon the third deviation from the restriction, an indefinite block should be considered as it will be clear by this point that nothing is going to change.

I commend this to the community. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'm all for wrapping this up, and I endorse any restriction imposed here, even an imperfect one, as one that will make the editing environment less hostile to IP editors, per WP:IAR. Please ping me when (not if) this ends up at Arbcom. Ivanvector (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree with wrapping this up now with any of the proposed community restrictions. I strongly oppose closing this or letting this go to archive with no action at all. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Question Could someone who thinks WTS makes good content contributions, give a brief summary of those contributions? "Content contribution" for purpose for purpose of this question specifically means new informative material added to the encyclopedia. This doesn't count reversions and removals of any sort, since those (some good, some bad) have already been discussed. A content contribution assessment separate from any reversions, deletions, and spelling corrections would be helpful in understanding the big picture. Thanks. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, we haven't discussed reversions and removals of any sort. just the subset that is problematical, and I caution against the common "content creation is king, error fixers are second-class editors" attitute. That being said, less than two minutes of searching (I timed it) found these two:

• Taking a picture that most editors wouldn't know to take or how to describe the significance of and adding it to an aricle:[60][61]

• Copyediting an article and adding content that most editors would not be able to create: [62]

If anyone wants me to I will take a half an hour and find dozens more. The engineering articles need editors with engineering knowledge. I really don't want to lose Wtshymanski's productive contributions if we can find a way to stop him from constantly finding new ways to be disruptive and driving away other editors. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

+1 Wtshymanski does some good work on tech and EE articles, but continually demonstrates why standard rollback/revert isn't something handed out to everyone (TW notwithstanding). Something needs to be done, but without losing them altogether unless that's the only option left. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 00:01, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Guy, thanks. Yes we have discussed WTS's reversions across the various threads and the RFC. I wouldn't say error fixers are second class editors, but when someone reverts a non-vandalistic content addition, they are saying they know better than the contributor how to contribute content. So if they get into a bunch of ANI's about those reverts, I like to see some evidence that they know how to contribute content themselves before telling others how to do it. I'm satisfied with the examples you gave and your judgment on WTS's additions. If he hadn't made any significant ones, I'd support the indef block proposal. As it is, I defer to you. I'm pessimistic about the other proposals but one can always hope. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 01:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

There appears to be a consensus to close this. Could we have an uninvolved admin write up a summary, take whatever action is required (if any), and close the case? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The broad opinion is that this should be closed with the option 4 sanction. Could an administrator now do the honours. Or are we to believe that raising a problem at this noticeboard is a waste of time and resources? If the administrators are not going to take action then could they at least have the courtesy to leave a note here why and tell us what we should have done, or need to do, to resolve this problem? –LiveRail < Talk > 08:45, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I have enacted proposal 4 and recorded it on Wikipedia:Editing restrictions. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What's the point of being allowed 6 accounts per address per day if...?

WP:DFTT. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Why does the system even let a single IP address set up 6 accounts in a single day if you admins are just gonna forget that that allowance exists and shut them down anyway? What's the point of having rules if you're just gonna ignore them? When Are We Gonna...? (talk) 09:44, 24 March 2015 (UTC) As this is your very first edit, it really isn't clear what you're talking about. If you provide a link to a specific alleged abuse of Wikipedia policy, I'm sure you'll stand a much better chance of getting a satisfactory answer. Squinge (talk) 11:39, 24 March 2015 (UTC) what's the point of having rules if you're just gonna ignore them' Ignore all rules' is one of our core policies, didn't you know? Seriously though, I think the high limit's mostly meant so that people who share the same IP don't run into issues, and it's also useful for beginning wp:acc helpers who don't yet have account creator rights. Needless to say, the "allowance" only exists as long as you don't abuse the system. 77.56.43.252 (talk) 11:51, 24 March 2015 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. How about you give the poster a chance to respond before you jump on the "close" template so fast? And then even now, I'll be gone for a few hours. Can't you leave this here and open long enough for me to have a follow-up response to it? Gessh. Well, how can you tell if someone is supposedly "abusing" the 6-per-IP-per-day rule if you see 6 of them coming in from the same IP address in a given day and that's allowed? And if it still is "abuse" somehow, then why can't I be left with even ONE account that isn't blocked? How can it be "abuse" for me to even have ONE? 75.162.237.213 (talk) 18:34, 24 March 2015 (UTC) Ahhh.... if all your accounts are blocked, then your posting here using an IP is block evasion, isn't it? BMK (talk) 20:52, 24 March 2015 (UTC) 6 accounts per address per day? Why and why not? @DoRD: Will you guys please not close this so fast? I hardly got any chance to respond to it. Can't you wait until the poster of the problem or question has had a chance or few to follow up before you just jump on the "close" template? Geesh. And then will you please actually continue to respond to it instead of just acting like I "don't count" and am "garbage" just because I supposedly "broke one of your rules"? 75.162.237.213 (talk) 05:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC) (Quoted from before:) "I think the high limit's mostly meant so that people who share the same IP don't run into issues, and it's also useful for beginning wp:acc helpers who don't yet have account creator rights. Needless to say, the "allowance" only exists as long as you don't abuse the system." 77.56.43.252 (talk) 11:51, 24 March 2015 (UTC) So then how can admins tell if someone's supposedly "abusing the system" or using it legitimately if they check that the IP address is the same either way? How should they be able to tell if the 6 created by that IP in the same day might not be "abuse"? And if it never happens, then why not just get rid of that (lower it to 1-2) so that it doesn't give someone a false sense that it's okay? And even then, if it ends up still being considered "abuse," why shouldn't even one account from that group be left unblocked (maybe the first one in a series or something like that), which would then certainly put the number within reasonability so as not to be considered so-called "abusive"? Will you guys please leave this open for a while so I can follow up a few times rather than just closing it so fast? As the question's poster, I'd really like to think I should be given a chance to have some words back and forth with you before I just get shut down. Fair enough? 75.162.237.213 (talk) 05:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC) How about you answer my question from above? If all the accounts you created are blocked, why shouldn't you be blocked as well for block evasion? And, no, if you're blocked, then you should not be given a chance to discuss this until after you're unblocked. BMK (talk) 05:16, 25 March 2015 (UTC) I didn't answer your question before, "ken," because I didn't see it before. Where is it? How do you suppose, "ken" (@Beyond My Ken:), that a given user would ever be able to take care of their problem here if every time they try to say anything, they're immediately blocked indefinitely without warning? I'm not blocked (obviously), but whenever I try to create an account, it gets blocked. When I created 6 accounts in the same day, they all were blocked, as if I had been "abusing" the system, even though the system allows the 6 per address per day. That's just it! Why should all the accounts have been blocked if the system allows that? If that's just gonna be considered "abuse" anyway, then why don't they make the system not allow it? And how can you tell if it is so-called "abuse" or not? And if they are considered so-called "abuse," then why block all of them instead of leaving one--whichever one you guys would consider to be the "okay" one (like first one or whatever)--unblocked, because it would be the one that wasn't "violating"? So then I tried just 2, and they got blocked. So then when I just try one after that, should that one be blocked too? Why shouldn't even one stay unblocked because it's not "violating"? 75.162.237.213 (talk) 05:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alleged personal attack from admin-impersonator

WP:DFTT. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Okay, what is user:Beyond My Ken doing acting like an admin by moving my ANI posts on me and telling me what I "can't" do there, and then even answering things as if an admin? Also, this same NON-admin has resorted to incivility against me by calling me an idiot: "I'm not an admin.... Go away, you're an idiot. BMK (talk) 06:35, 25 March 2015 (UTC)" 75.162.237.213 (talk) 07:01, 25 March 2015 (UTC) This likely isn't the place to discuss this, but you are required to notify all reported parties of discussions here. I will be doing that now. - Amaury (talk) 07:10, 25 March 2015 (UTC) I have removed the transclusion of BMK's user page in the IP's question. - David Biddulph (talk) 07:12, 25 March 2015 (UTC) It looks like I used the wrong formatting symbols--{{}} instead of [[]]--to make a link out of someone's name. I thought I had already fixed those. 75.162.237.213 (talk) 07:28, 25 March 2015 (UTC) The IP is an IP Sockpuppet of User:IDriveAStickShift. This sort of tantrum following WP:Trolling is typical JoeSperrazza (talk) 07:14, 25 March 2015 (UTC) Any chance of getting a block against this block-evading, incompetent, trolling, probable sockpuppet? WP:NOTHERE seems like a reasonable ground for blocking. BMK (talk) 07:17, 25 March 2015 (UTC) I've created a report here. - Amaury (talk) 07:22, 25 March 2015 (UTC) Blocked for one month per WP:DUCK as prima facie evidence of block evasion.  Philg88 ♦talk 07:31, 25 March 2015 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Serial copyright violator

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Rick570 is a serial copyright violator. Most recently, Scholasticate [63].
Older examples:

Martin Reyners. [64] and [65]. notice on talk page.

Stephen A. Parke notice on talk page.

Russell Haley, Bob Orr (poet) and Murray Edmond. notice on talk page.

[66] [67]. notice on talk page.

User:Rick570/Francis Douglas. notice on talk page.

Even when copying is allowed by Creative Commons he fails to provide attribution. eg [User:Rick570/Michel Bouillot] [68].
See also: Sections of Sam Hunt (poet) (Icon) are taken from The Oxford Companion to New Zealand Literature (text available here). duffbeerforme (talk) 11:10, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Since we have well over five instances of copyright violation, I have posted a request for a CCI investigation, Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations#Requests. User has been notified. Thank you for reporting. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:28, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

personal attacks by Longtone

Longtone has been engaging in personal attacks against me on the trajan vuia page for some time now. most recently calling me an obsessive monomaniac [69] and accusing me of sockpuppetry [70], and going all the way back to his insulting me in edit sumaries [71]. This seems to be his way of trying to rectify a content dispute, but my concern here today is his personal attacks.Ion G Nemes (talk) 02:06, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I think you mean TheLongTone, but at any rate...calling you a POV pusher isn't really a personal attack. And s/he even stated that s/he didn't call you a sock (although this is close). Both of y'all maybe need to cool off for a bit, but I don't really see anything warranting admin intervention here. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 09:08, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} that no administrative action is necessary at this point. I think you would need to show a more severe pattern of name-calling, and un-civil behavior, etc. Before going to this forum, I think you should post an uncivil tag on the user's talk page, list the incident diffs and say you plan to take them to ANI if they continue along this line. As to the content dispute, you might try asking for a Third Opinion WP:THIRD. (revised) David Tornheim (talk) 09:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Nemes is an SPA solely concerned with pushing his POV re Train Vuia: this is in the face of a num,ber of editors opposing his edits. He does not engage with arguments on the talk page, merely acts hysterically. As he is doing here.TheLongTone (talk) 13:29, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

And I admit my deralings with Nemes have got snippy, but this is in the face of persistent failure to engage with issues on his part: he has also made accusations of improper behaviour agains me and other users, notably User:Binksternet.TheLongTone (talk) 13:37, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

It is you and your fellow vandals(that's what stonewalling and tendentious editing are defined as) Binsternet and donfb who refuse to engage with arguments. And whining about content disputes is not the purpose of this page. you're a veteram editor, you should know that.Ion G Nemes (talk) 13:47, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. It's for the talk page, where you have made an obnoxious fool of yourself. Incidentally the IP who you claim is my sock is in Montreal. I think it's fairly obvious that I am not.TheLongTone (talk) 13:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

• To both of you: Please stop with the Ad_hominems. Calling each other names in this back and forth is not going to solve anything. Each of you should please review Wiki-Incivility and WP:ETIQ. You both need to provide diffs of the behavior you are accusing the other of.
• To TheLongTone (talk): You accused Ion G Nemes (talk) of being a SPA. However, I looked at Nemes's user contributions [here], and that is not correct. Please do not WP:BITE new users (to the page). This lends credibility to Nemes's accusations against you. Please review this policy guideline from WP:BITE:

Do not call newcomers disparaging names such as "sockpuppet" or "meatpuppet." You can point them to those policies if there is valid cause to do so. For example, if a disproportionate number of newcomers show up on one side of a vote, you should make them feel welcome while explaining that their votes may be disregarded. No name-calling is necessary. Similarly, think hard before calling a newcomer a single-purpose account. Besides, it is discouraged to label any editor with such invidious titles during a dispute (see Wikipedia:Don't call a spade a spade).

(revised) David Tornheim (talk) 17:53, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Read and understood. I admit that I have at times been uncivil in my reactions to the situation I find myself in. And although I do believe that gaming the system has occurred at times, I will not bring it up as an epithet, and restrict all mention of it to situations where it is actually necessary, and in such hopefully rare situations try to do so with tact. It is not my intention to bring allegations of tendentiousness against TheLongTone for any acts he has performed up to this time, I got mad and mentioned something which I honestly believe, but did and do not intend to pursue in his case. I have no idea how to 'strike out' a line of text, but anyone reading this should feel free to strike the word Vandals, and the parenthetical phrase after it(perhaps to be replaced by 'editors'), and to strike the word whining. And I am sorry for that post's tenor.Ion G Nemes (talk) 03:05, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Addendum: However I do not believe I have ever called Thelongtone a sockpuppet at any time. And Since I have no Idea who he is, or where he's from, the whole Montreal thing is, frankly, confusing to me. Ion G Nemes (talk) 03:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

To Ion G Nemes (talk): Thank you for taking responsibility for your behavior. To strike out a section, add <s> immediately before the text and </s> at the end of the text as I did with this text which you can look at if you edit this page. See also Strikethrough.

-David Tornheim (talk) 05:34, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I stand by everything I have said. Nemes is to all effects a SPA, very few of his edits are anywhere else. And my other comments are fully justified by his conduct on Talk:Train Vuia. Why provide diffs: almost everythin posted is evidence of his foolish behaviour. Notably the familiar POV that an editor is upholding truth in the face of a cabal of POV pushers.TheLongTone (talk) 10:49, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I also do not understand why I am accused of biting a newcomer: Nemes has been editing since December 2010. Concetrating on Vuia and Henri Coanda, a very similar topic. This is slightly longer than I have been active on Wikipedia. TheLongTone (talk) 12:08, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother commenting on this matter, except that it involves an editor I've begun to notice and respect and I hate to see such editors getting themselves into trouble. Longtone, it's not a matter of what you think about the other editor, it's a matter of how you express it. You might think s/he is an SPA, a sock or any number of other things, but it's unproductive to start (or continue) an argument based on those views. That approach never works (I know, I've tried it). Deb (talk) 13:01, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

At the risk of being accused of wikilawyering, I have never said anything about Nemes as a person: away from the topic he may very well be delightful. I have, I think, restricted my comments to his editing behaviour, which is I believe another matter. Iand I may have expressed myself robustly: I have not ever been abusive. Anyway, the whole thing is all too silly for words. Incidentally the person who said something about ad hominum comments clearly does not know what the term means.TheLongTone (talk) 12:11, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

For examples of Nemes' intemperate behaviour, see [72]. For evidence that his attitude towards Vuia is highly biased and refusal to back this opinion with sources, see [73].TheLongTone (talk) 12:17, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

TneLongTone, Exactly how can you say that calling me a fool, and insisting that I will definitely return under a number of sick personalities (a clearly unfounded attack, which I assert is an accusation of being a sock, after all if I were to post that an editor would just go home and molest his children if he wasn't banned I would certainly have accused him of being a child molestor. (this is not an accusation against any editor, but merely an example.) As to the diff you just supplied, I was attempting to get some action against the posting of alleged personal information on wikipedia, a practice which is supposedly taken quite seriously here (the results of my complaint would seem to belie this), and you showed up to make attacks upon me which were totally unrelated to the issue at hand. You did not address the issue in any way other than to say you knew nothing about it. This appears to be false, since you were at that time, and still probably are, watching that page quite closely and after the attack you immediately started echoing the allegations of my being a sock puppet that were contained therein. I don't think I need to post a diff for THIS since the diff you just supplied is an example, but I believe i can supply others if that is deemed necessary. As to my suggestion that it was wikistalking, are you saying that you just happened to stumble upon this by accident and decide to post abuse unrelated to the subject at hand? This does not just strain credulity, but actually ruptures it. I announced yesterday that I intended to take a wikibreak and return to the vuia page at some later date, but was informed that you seemed to be taking this as an opportunity to post allegations here of a questionable nature without having to worry about my questioning their veracity. So I'm back. Furthermore, as to the third diff I posted when opening this thread, I feel that calling an editor 'sweetie' when deleting his post is clearly abuse. I would like to know if it is the opinion of the editors here that calling a person 'sweetie' during a contentious disagreement is or is not abusive.Ion G Nemes (talk) 17:19, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

To LongTone: Nemes owned up to his/her behavior. You have not. Your continued accusation against Nemes as a SPA and POV pusher is not substantiated by evidence and is unproductive. Suggesting you need not provide diffs is equally unhelpful. As for the POV issues, that should go to the NPOV forum WITH EVIDENCE (diffs). With that said...

• support some admin. action againstwarning for TheLongTone -- Some message needs to be given to TheLongTone that his/her behavior is unproductive. I don't have a problem with TheLongTone continuing to edit at the page in question, but I think the uncivil behavior needs to be addressed , possibly with a stern warning and/or short term (1 day?) block.David Tornheim (talk) 20:20, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Çomment I'm sure that TheLongTone will reflect on choice of words when making points in future. There is nothing here which supports action against TheLongTone unless that action is a gentle encouragement to choose words more carefully. I see that Ion G Nemes is taking a break which IMHO is a good move. I will follow up on their talk page with some friendly advice. Please all take a deep breath and move on to edit with consensus. Best wishes Flat Out let's discuss it 01:32, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

^Okay by me. I have toned down my recommendation accordingly.David Tornheim (talk) 08:13, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Has anybody here actually looked at Talk:Traian Vuia?? If they have, why has no account been taken of Nemes's long history of unproductive contribution to this page: I started off being extremely civil to him, and the admitted deterioration in my language has been a response to his intransigent failure to engage rationally with me or any other editor on the page. incidentally I don't think calling an editor 'sweetie' is abuse: I'll admit it's condescending and not the apogee of civility, but calling it abuse is pushing it. TheLongTone (talk) 13:24, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

The essential point is that my admitted bad behaviour has been a response to Nemess behaviour, which has been bad from the start. Basically I have been provoked to the point where my patience has worn through.14:00, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I read over a bunch of Talk:Traian Vuia. It looks to me like the main problem is a recurring strong disagreement over what the secondary sources have to say about a "hop" or "flight" with increasing frustration over the disagreement of how the reliable sources describe it. Nemes gives the impression of more competence in the subject matter than others, but could have a bias that is not reflected in the sources. Rather than focus on behavior (this kind of arguing between you all is so common on Wikipedia unfortunately), the dispute might be resolved possibly with an RfC, where all the Reliable Sources for the statement in question are spelled out and the arguments for the two versions are clear? (possibly one from you; one from Blinkersnet; one from Nemes}. I would give my opinion now, but I did not feel like trying to figure out what source(s) you all were referring to and find the relevant quotes: that's your job. If you do that third parties can look at what you are arguing about and decide if one position makes significantly more sense. That would be done as an RfC on the page. But there might be another way to address it, such as bringing it to the NPOV notice board, or if there is a question of whether sources proposed should be used, bring it to the RS notice board. Are you willing to do any of these, @TheLongTone:? -David Tornheim (talk) 22:40, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

See post below. Nemes's beef is solely with including the exact words used by a single OK but not particularly authoritative source. I have set forth my objection to this wording innumerable times. And I think that all the editors involved have a fair knowledge of early aviation, I see no reason to single out Nemes as particlarly 'competant'. Although he possibly knows morw about Romanian aviation.TheLongTone (talk) 13:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I read it also and I have posted advice to Ion G Nemes that they consider a self ban. I'm not sure there's any progress to be made arguing the issue here and suggest involved editors move on with good faith. Flat Out let's discuss it 00:16, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

First, TheLongTone was abusive from the start. It is convenient for him that this cannot be easily shown in diffs, so I'm not surprised that he is taking this tack. I'm not surprised that it appears to be a disagreement over 'hop' versus flight, because instead of making any posts over the last few weeks addressing the actual question being discussed, Binksternet has been posting unrelated statements about whether vuia ever flew(this is in part what I referred too as 'tendentious editing': It gives the superficial appearance of discussion, when it is in fact no such thing, just how can there be a consensus without discussion?). The debate is over whether the reference saying that 'according to some sources' Vuia flew on march 18, 1906 should be reflected in the article, or if it should be ignored. I am unaccustomed to cases where the references already sited on the article page are ignored in writing the article. And TheLongTone's assertion that in order to say this, I must personally find and show him references which say he didn't fly on March 18, 1906, seems to be a case of his refusing to accept an article in Air and Space Magazine by an aviation historian as a reliable source unless I do independent research to prove that he is in fact reliable. This cant is all the more difficult to understand since his original argument for changing the lede to remove all doubt that vuia flew on that date was that, "as far as I know, everybody accepts it." This seems to be a selective standard for references of the most pronounced sort. And Yes, I have certainly called vuia a liar, since he spent the last years of his life making claims so silly and at odds with reality that they can be characterized as nothing else: That he was the third man to ever build an aircraft engine, that he was the father of flight and after his hop of march 18 nothing was left to do in the development of flight but a few trivial details, that The wrights never flew without a catapult, That no one else ever achieved liftoff from level ground before March 18, 1906,And that a boiler he invented was being used in all existing thermal power stations (some sources say all Nuclear power stations)in the 1950s. I don't see why realizing that someone was a habitual liar should preclude editing his article. If other better know liars had their articles edited exclusively by those who chose to pretend he was of an honest nature, then those articles would be very different indeed. It should also be pointed out that the lying scumbag line appears so often on that board because TheLongTone keeps bringing it up rather than addressing the actual posts. Ion G Nemes (talk) 02:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

My final point is that you can look for justice or look for a solution. Personally, I find that agreeing on solutions is the better way to go. The suggestion to go to the NPOV forum is how I would proceed if you can't reach agreement here. Good luck to you all. Flat Out let's discuss it 04:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, posts on my talk page such as this do not argue for Nemes's good faith. Secondly, the wording and source that Nemes insists on, "some sources claim" is essentially weasel wording. It implies that "some sources deny", which Nemes resolutely fails to understand, and thinks is addressable by citing sources that fail to mention rather than deny. It's all too lame for words, since nobody is attempting to maintain anything other than that these claims rest on Vuia's own accounts. As said, all Nemes is battling about is the phrase "some sources claim" citing a website that uses those words. I could argue that using this words therefore constitutes copyvio, but really can't be bothered. TheLongTone (talk) 12:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

'According to some accounts' is the wording of the source. Perhaps if you feel that his article is 'weasel wording' you should explain to him why exactly why he is wrong, and why the magazine that this aviation historian writes for is actually a website (I am sure he would be glad to know that). As to your argument that quoting three words from the magazine in question constitutes copyright violation, if the administrators assembled here have even a cursory knowledge of copyright law, (I assume that they must have much more than that), then you're not gonna get too far with that one. I would assert that I am not required to do any vetting on a reliable source just because you don't like what it has to say. I would further assert that since we are not trained aviation historians we do not have access to the sources and means an aviation historian might use for research. There is more to research than 'just googling it' which in the case of vuia leads you to hundreds of reprints of the same basic claims on blogs and websites which are of dubious reliability. Furthermore, you are, in fact trying to suggest that these claims rest on something other than vuia's own accounts. That's why you asked sleeppillow to remove 'he said' from the lede in the first place. (based on your assertion that "as far as I know everybody accepts it"). This, ironically enough, was DonFB's earlier edit. In addition, you ask for proof, but when I pointed out that there is already a reference posted on the page which lists vuia's first flight as oct 8, 1906, your reply is that it doesn't say he didn't fly on March 18. So apparently you are demanding an article that lists all days when vuia didn't achieve a hop. It should be obvious that this is unlikely at best.

.......................................................................................................... I am sorry to have to waste so much time on this. I thought it would be possible to address the name calling and rudeness which started as soon as I tried to edit the page without making this an argument about the edits. But LongTone seems bound to bring up anything and everything, including his own personal views on copyright law. And does anyone know what's wrong with flat out? His constantly referring to me as a plural is strange.Ion G Nemes (talk) 02:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

There's a great deal of not assuming good faith in the above. Rferrring to nemes as 'they' is common usage where the gender of someone is not known. Not realising this makes me think that although Neme's command of English is very good, he/she may miss some nuances: this could explain why he/she does not see my onjection to his/her preferred wording. I don't like the allegation that I am canvassing or whatever. (That's why you asked sleeppillow to remove 'he said' from the lede in the first place. (based on your assertion that "as far as I know everybody accepts it" I assume you mean User:Steelpillow) And I have never tried to maintain that Vuia's claims rest on anything other than his accounts given to l'Aerophile. As far as research goes I don't just google it: I generally prefer print sources, of which I have a decent library and access to others. As for wasting time.....TheLongTone (talk) 12:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

This request was brought to my attention when I got namechecked. It seems to me that the article history and talk pages show that the plaintiff, Ion G Nemes (talk · contribs), has been warring against consensus, making tendentious edit comments and seeking to promote their own beliefs over verifiable sources. Others in this spat probably ought to have been politer, but there is no doubt who is driving it. This request appears equally tendentious. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

EditorAliShah

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've been encouraged to take my vandalism report here:

• EditorAliShah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Longterm disruptive account, ignoring warnings and adding unsourced and erroneous content for months in numerous biographical articles--these are alternated with constructive edits, but the percentage is abysmal. I've reverted some of this user's edits, but the list of disruption is long. Requesting a block, and more eyes on this account's history with assistance in cleaning up the damage will be appreciated. Thank you, 2602:302:D89:83E9:DCF:FD75:97E9:3302 (talk) 15:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Have you tried filing a report on the vandalism noticeboard (WP:AIV)? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:13, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, that was my first choice of venue, and it was suggested I come here. 2602:302:D89:83E9:DCF:FD75:97E9:3302 (talk) 17:44, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

  Just to confirm, this is the correct venue, despite Liz's question. AIV is inappropriate for this, because this editor's behavior is not vandalism per se. There's no evidence that the user in question is clearly trying to harm Wikipedia. Their edits may have that effect, but if it isn't intended as harm, it isn't vandalism. Other disruptive behavior should be discussed in other venues, such as this one. I have no comments on the merits of this case, except to state that Liz's idea to go to AIV would be incorrect. --Jayron32 00:47, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

(2602, under different #) Some of the edits were plainly deceptive, as erroneous birth and death dates, sometimes decades off, were added. Others evidenced constructive intent, but a roughly fifty/fifty split is unacceptable. We've probably all seen this sort of edit history before, which I think is about adding something to the article, whether or not it's factual. In the end, if none of the edits are sourced, and the user has been advised of this several times over several months, then the conclusion is that it's not a productive account. 2602:302:D89:C79:65DF:E4AE:52AA:D9F0 (talk) 02:14, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Iskander Mirza was my great grand father and in the history, children = Mirza Kaleech and 5 more , Kaleech means prick in Urdu, Danger^Mouse (talk) 11:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

User:AliTheHacker his alternative account most likely . Danger^Mouse (talk) 12:08, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for the observations, which help to confirm that this is not solely a well-meaning account. Also not surprised by the possibility that this user would have taken on multiple accounts for this purpose. 2602:302:D89:C79:A4B8:894A:89B7:5639 (talk) 12:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I've just blocked indefinitely for disruptive editing after he created another hoax page despite having been given sufficient advice and warnings.  —SMALLJIM  12:34, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

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Ongoing irrelevant personal attacks by Hijiri88, time for sanctions?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Enough is enough. User:Hijiri88 has seemingly developed some sort of grossly counterproductive insistence on grossly misusing article talk pages to continue to engage in attacks on another editor, specifically, User:Catflap08. The most recent act of this insistence on using article talk pages for the purpose of impugning and insulting others can be seen here. There has been discussion with him, still present on his article talk page, as well as other comments about misuse of the article talk page on the Daisaku Ikeda talk page, about his insistent attempts to belittle others for seemingly no purpose but belittling them. I think the time may well have come to impose an interaction ban on that editor and Catflagp08. I honestly have no reason to believe that Hijiri88 is capable of recognizing his insistence off-topic attempts at bullying are unacceptable here, and think that the time has probably come for outside input to stop his insistent attacks. John Carter (talk) 16:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Calling a spade a spade has never been a personal attack. I'm finding it hard to work out how much you follow Hijiri around, and how much you just happen to have already edited the article/talk pages in question. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:40, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Although I note the obvious assumption of bad faith in the above, I think I should note that any article I edit is added to my watch list, and that when I see an editor who has shown repeated inability to abide by basic rules of civility, and seemingly be proud of that, it is not unresonable to see if the individual has continued in the same behavior. Ignoring the unstated but obvious insinuations in the above comment regarding my own motives, and the fact that somehow there seems to be an implicit view that I am in someway actively stalking Hijiri, which I categorically deny, I would appreciate it if further comments actually in some way directly dealt with the questions raised here. If others wish to raise further quetions in separate threads or subthreads, of course, they are free to do so. But I do think that Hijiri has displayed enough lack of recognition of his own inability to abide by basic TPG or general behavioral rules in this case justify consideration of an interaction ban, possibly in this case a mutual interaction ban. John Carter (talk) 16:46, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• I wasn't "insinuating" anything - I was calling you out on what appears to be a series of stalkerish behaviour. I'm losing count of the number of times I see an ANI notification come up in my watchlist from either you or Catflap08, but the fact that no action has ever been taken should give you a hint as to how little of a case you really have. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:52, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• And, frankly, I am losing count of the number of times you have been the first responder as well. I also note that your attempt to "call me out" seems to itself perhaps qualify as stalking. Also, honestly, your own comment seems to show that you perhaps do not understand that when behavior continues despite repeated warnings, it is generally accepted as reasonable to take action to prevent it, and that every continuation of such behavior is in fact grounds for potentially further continuation. So, while noting your own behavior in this instance, which could itself perhaps be seen as "stalking" of a sort, implicit in your comment above, I once again ask, as I did above, if you believe you have grounds for criticism, please have the good grace to start them in a separate section. Also, please note that in most instances, when repeated warnings have been given and ignored, as is very obviously the case here, consideration of sanctions to end the disruption is, in general, considered reasonable. John Carter (talk) 17:24, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• So you're descending into trolling now? Good job. I've commented on a grand total of two of these threads, and I was clearly not the first person to comment last time. I also happened to be browsing ANI (against my better judgement) when this thread was opened, as I have done a few times today - my contribution history also shows this. So, in other words; cut the crap, please. I'm not the one, after all, who keeps filing ANI threads over and over again on the same user, even when their previous threads have found nothing actionable. Methinks you should go and find something better to do with your time. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• I only note that your "excuses" are really no better than my own, which you have summarily rejected. I also note the immediate escalation into rather unfounded personal attacks by the rather laughable addition of the obviously PA "trolling" word above. To paraphrase your own rather obnoxious language, cut the crap and either file a real complaint or please act in accord with conduct guidelines and refrain from descending into personal attacks and unfounded judgments on others in what are rather straw man arguments against them. And I note, despite your claims to not doing things "over and over," not one of the comments you have already made here "over and over" actually directly relate the questions being raised. John Carter (talk) 18:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• "And, frankly, I am losing count of the number of times you have been the first responder as well." - this was the first time I had done so. So, yeah, you're clearly trolling. Again, calling a spade a spade is not a personal attack. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:32, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

My apologies for my error, if it is true, although I do note the frequency and rapidity with which you jump to conclusions about others, and although I notice that you have still refused to make any sort of direct response to the questions made, and that on that basis there is every reason to think that calling you by any number of comments which might otherwise qualify as personal attacks would be just calling a spade a spade as well. John Carter (talk) 18:49, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Wish my semi-retirement was that active!!! _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 17:27, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I also note what might be seen as reasonable that according to the article history page here Hijiri88 himself may have edited the article only once recently, while Catflap08 has edited it repeatedly, so, if there are to be accusations against me for not attempting to improve the article directly, so the same statement might be made about Hijiri88 and his commenting on an article he has rarely if ever directly attempted to improve as well. And, FWIW, it is also generally considered reasonable to watch controversial articles more closely, and the topic of Soka Gakkai is obviously a controversial one. And other recent discussion, as per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive218#Daisaku Ikeda, seems to have perhaps done a better job of vindicating Catflap08 than at least some others involved, possibly including Hijiri88. John Carter (talk) 17:32, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

So... what's this about again? Preferably in short sentences/clauses which those of us who have no idea what you're going on about might have a chance of following? Speak to the audience, not each other. Begoon ^talk 18:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

As per the history of derogatory comments on both sides, as indicated by the comments at Talk:Kenji Miyazawa, Talk:Daisaku Ikeda, and multiple warnings on user talk pages, including at least one specific warning from me to Hijiri88 that if the attacks continued I would seek an i-ban, I am requesting consideration of whether there are sufficient grounds to a mutual interaction ban between Catflap08 and Hijiri88. John Carter (talk) 18:46, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I understood that. I endorse Swarm's action below. Begoon ^talk 18:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Let's stay on topic...I don't find Hijiri's comments on in the discussion you linked to to be quite as severe as you're making them out to be. Yeah, you're supposed to focus on content, not contributors, and he's clearly accusing Catflap of inappropriate behavior regarding article content. I don't see it as an outright spiteful personal attack in need of sanctions. Regardless, I will message this user on their talk page explaining our behavioral expectations. Swarm ^X 18:47, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• The question is although regarding his continuing to be involved at the Ikeda page, which he himself has not made any particularly visible contributions to, and his ongoing insistance on making attacks for no apparent reason other than wanting to make attacks. He has, as said, never shown any particular interest in that article other than to impugn Catflap08, and that is perhaps worth taking some sort of action to change. John Carter (talk) 18:52, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

John, I love you, but is that even English? Begoon ^talk 18:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

It is English of a grossly repetitive, redundant, sort, particular for those of us who are more used to speaking in Martian languages for the past few centuries. ;) John Carter (talk) 18:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok. I guess I've been exposed to English, Martian and Bollocks in one day. Who said this wasn't a multilingual project? Begoon ^talk

• I left him a very clear message regarding this, if he continues despite an administrative warning it'll be a different story, but I think we should AGF for now—he's within his rights to comment and we should assume he's doing so in good faith. However I made it clear that he's expected to refrain from commenting on contributors and pursue good faith concerns about other editors' behavior through proper channels, not on talk pages. Swarm ^X 18:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you. The thread can probably be closed. John Carter (talk) 18:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

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User:Rowdyjewellery

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This user was banned for being promotion-only account on 16 March, however they are continuing to user talk page for promotion here. Please can you revoke talkpage access? Joseph2302 (talk) 14:13, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Done. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Afrikaansftw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Afrikaansftw --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 22:58, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I've warned the editor and will monitor their contributions. If an admin wants to go on ahead and block them as a vandalism-only account, that's one less tab for me to refresh. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:01, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Mlpearc disruptive editing

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Mlpearc reverting edits which contain proper citation and good faith without reason simply to facilitate personal Point of View. Violations Include the following:

• [74]
• [75]
• [76]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawrencegoriel (talk • contribs) 19:09, March 25, 2015‎ (UTC)

You are clearly still pushing your POV, We (other editors and myself) spent most of yesterday trying to point out that, you can not just show up and change things to your liking, with that editing method you're going to need community consensus for 95% of the edits you are making. Note the open report above Mlpearc (open channel) 19:28, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

As well as building up a 'case file' against other editors on his TP, insulting them, and not accepting his own lack of good faith of course. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 19:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Lawrencegoriel, you seem to exhibit battleground behavior. When there is a difference of opinion about article edits, you go to the article talk page and discuss it with other editors to reach a consensus. If you find yourself in an edit war, stop reverting and, if appropriate, file a complaint at WP:AN3. If there are debates about your sources, go to WP:RSN and get an outside opinion. But content disputes are not settled at WP:ANI. You need to work it out amongst all editors involved or, if you can't reach a consensus to make the edits, you need to learn to live with the article the way it is. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:49, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

My talk page is mine to do with as I please, as written in the guidelines. The purpose of my talk page, at the moment, is to document all of the research that shows that my contributions are made strictly on factual basis, whereas, the use of the Assyrian name is Point of View editing. My sources come from non-Chaldean, non-biased and educated writers who have no personal interests in making a claim for one thing or another. The citations used on most Assyrian claims are made by Assyrians, for Assyrians. If you are going to argue with me, please take the time to research your statements before you make them. In the meantime, I expect the same amount of respect any seasoned editor would receive when makes changes based on credible sources. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 20:07, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• "My talk page is mine to do with as I please, as written in the guidelines." Which guideline says that? Could you quote it for us, we'd love to be edumukat'd.--198.201.2diff=5658518503.10 (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe he is referring to Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#User talk pages. Compared to article talk pages, there aren't a lot of guidelines about user talk pages. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:30, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm aware of that guideline. No where in it does it say anything about 'My talk page is mine'. I asked Lawrence to quote the line he believe says this. The line he quoted is about user pages, not user talk pages.--198.201.23.10 (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I think Tide sums it up quite nicely. Mlpearc (open channel) 21:38, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

In other words, you can't defend your actions so you want to talk about what I'm doing on my talk page. Cool --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 21:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I think that's just a boomerang...? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 21:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Fortuna, please stop adding your disruptive and unproductive comments to all of my talk page discussions. I never had any dealings with you and don't know who you are or why you are ruthlessly harassing me multiple times a day. Please remove yourself from my discussions. Thank you. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 22:15, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Paid editor, editing warring

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Pmesiti (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

OK, Pmesiti is an actual paid editor, as revealed by an angry comment on another editor's talk page. - a PR rep for a politician, Bernie Finn.

Is slowburn edit warring at the article (blanking section on his Views)

• 16 June 2014 dif
• 1 September 2014 dif
• 1 September 2014 dif
• 23 March 2015 dif
• 23 March 2015 dif
• 25 March 2015dif
• 26 March 2015 dif

• Has never used their own Talk page User_talk:Pmesiti nor the article Talk page - has not responded to nor acknowledged COI notices nor edit warring notices. Nothing.

• Has not responded at the COIN posting either.

• In my view, this is a disruptive, paid editor who has not actually declared per the ToU. Please indeff. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:44, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support indefinite ban (or at the very least a topic ban) for repeated deletion of sourced content achieved by consensus, and failure to engage. Flat Out let's discuss it 01:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support ban and per above least a topic ban, this isn't a place to push your own views. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, not a site ban. Carrite (talk) 02:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I added userlinks to Pmesti above. I forgot to note that the account is a SPA. All it does, is Bernie Finn. Jytdog (talk) 02:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• This message says all. I was going to (temporarily) block this user, but users have suggested to ban him. Don't know what they meant by " if I am banned I will take it further" --Tito Dutta (talk) 02:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support indeffinite block - per WP:SPA. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:57, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support indef block. Send him to the outback. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:08, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. He either doesn't know or doesn't care what Wikipedia is all about, but at any rate, the diff Tito posted indeed says it all. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 04:42, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support Obvious WP:NOTHERE. GoldenRing (talk) 05:27, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support indef block, to be lifted only on the editors clearly demonstrating having a clue and promising not editing his clients' page.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 05:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Blocked indefinitely. --John (talk) 07:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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User:Lawrencegoriel personally attacking User:Kathovo

Lawrencegoriel's blatant attack on Kathovo here: [77]. Mlpearc (open channel) 03:46, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Lawrencegoriel is using his talk page to create, well, it's more than an article, it is basically mustering a defense against those he disagrees with ("The above information serves as documentation of instances where Assyrian Nationalists have used unjustified and unethical methods to remove the Chaldean name from history. Do not delete it, alter it or edit it in any way, shape or form. Please feel free to start topics in Open Discussion section below.").

I deleted the content and posted some information regarding user talk page guidelines (here) where I recommend he move this to a Sandbox but he reverted my edits and keeps adding more material. I realize that editors are allowed a lot of leeway on their user pages (WP:OWNTALK) but I think this conduct should be discouraged and it's clear my words went unheeded. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:23, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

What we have here is a new editor not familiar with our process (has passed 3rv just today on one article). I have gotten the editor to the article talk page...lets see what happens. My main concern here is POV editing...not sure why they keep removing mention of Assyrians from the population of Mosul. I have no problem with listing Chaldean but not ok with blanking mention of Assyrians when it comes to the population of the city. My main concern is the editor is not familiar with the topic at hand...as he mentions hes trying to find the truth on his user page. The editor has a clear problem with Assyrians again this is mentioned on his user page. .Will just move forward slowly showing them sources as we go. -Moxy (talk) 18:43, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The whole topic area of everything touching on the so-called "Assyrian" ethnicity and the ethnic in-fighting between the expatriate offshoots of its various subgroups has been a cesspit of tendentious editing for years, and unfortunately this has been escalating in recent months (probably because expatriate communities have become ever more thin-skinned in view of the terrible events afflicting their countries of origin). I strongly favour a zero-tolerance approach to every form of disruption in the area, be it from new editors or established ones. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:32, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• @Mlpearc; "Aren't we full of ourselves" did nothing but fan the flames. I strongly suggest you reconsider making similar comments in the future. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Closure of talk-page discussion

Would someone be willing to close Talk:Laurence Olivier#Infobox to put this argument to rest? Alakzi (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't need closing, it just needs you to hit the road and it will cease to exist.Cassianto^Talk 19:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This article's Talk page makes it clear that there's a long-running content dispute going on at Laurence Olivier. I suggest ANI steer well clear of this. --IJBall (talk) 20:45, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it is "long-running" but it is still an active discussion. I know a couple admins are checking in on it and it is probably better that someone who has been following this dispute close the question about hidden text. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:28, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The edit warriors on that page, on such a trivial matter as an infobox, fer cryin' out loud, should be put on ice for a suitable interval. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I don't quite get the battle over infoboxes, ←Baseball Bugs, but this dispute is actually about placing hidden text on an article forbidding editors from placing an infobox on the page. It's the wording (and the all caps) of the text that needs changing. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:22, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

And that debate is even sillier. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

No close, the article's been unprotected and the usual suspects are back to edit warring. What can I say? Alakzi (talk) 15:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The "usual suspects" are a cadre of malcontents who band together to defend each other's behavior. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Creator of article repeatedly removes WP:SPEEDY tag even though he is specifically instructed not to on the tag.

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Table-lookup synthesis was created about a month ago by User:Clusternote as a content fork. The editor wants to establish, using Wikipedia, his own spin on terminology that does not exist in the discipline. No one else had made substantive contributions to the article. It is OR. It is worthy of a discussion regarding whether or not the article should exist at all. But, rather than have the discussion, the editor is doing everything he can to quash it. 65.183.156.110 (talk) 14:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

No, the one trying to avoid discussion is you, since you keep battling to have the page speedy-deleted. This page does not qualify for WP:A11 speedy deletion: it is neither obviously invented by Clusternote (despite your unfounded allegation) nor does it fail to make a credible claim of significance. I have sent it to AfD - feel free to discuss there. (Non-administrator comment) Ivanvector (talk) 15:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested mass rollback

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I mistakenly unlinked (using Twinkle) all backlinks to WP:Sandbox. I'm sorry. Request a mass rollback. Thanks, SD0001 (talk) 20:21, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I think it's done. May need to be checked. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

It managed to trip quite a few edit filters so attracted quite a bit of attention. Edits to templates have been reverted (manually). Amortias (T)(C) 20:37, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• With your permission, may I add you to the Village stocks? KonveyorBelt 20:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh dear, looks like a trout is in order. Maybe not village stocks, but no one has offered our favorite seafood yet? --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 21:24, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Konveyor Belt: Yes, you may! SD0001 (talk) 07:05, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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Copyright violations by User:Tjmayerinsf

• Tjmayerinsf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I haven't looked at this too thoroughly, but it appears User:Tjmayerinsf is a non-communicative serial copyright infringer. Most recently [78] was copied from [ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2287170]. I'm seeing a string of copyright warnings e.g. [79][80] dating as far back as 2007, with some of them possibly contested. MER-C 12:40, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I found a couple more things: a copy vio plot on The Satin Woman, and material in Mikhail Petrenko (bass) copied from here (this one is not certain, as the Wayback Machine archived it on the same date the content was added here). That's with spot checks back to the beginning of January. I don't think there's enough to warrant opening a case. I will post on the user talk page and will monitor his contribs. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Question regarding user space page

Is it really appropriate to compile diffs for presentation to ANI or AE, as is explicitly stated is being done at User:Tgeairn/NPA diffs, or considering the fact that the content is under DS, should any such complaints be raised at the appropriate locations as the concerns are raised, and could such a collection of material be seen as being a form of WP:ATTACKPAGE? John Carter (talk) 21:27, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

See WP:USER, but so long as the compilation intends to be used before any of the diffs go stale, I'm pretty sure it's allowed. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 21:51, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I think your second sentence might be the more relevant one here. As it's purported purpose is to raise concerns at AE and ANI, which are more or less intended for immediate response, isn't it some what inherently dubious to basically collect grievances which one is apparently not willing to act on, or which perhaps are not worthy of being acted on? Collecting evidence for ArbCom is certainly well-precedented and acceptable, but I don't know that I've ever seen a collection specifically intended for ANI or AE, as is explicitly stated here. John Carter (talk) 21:58, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I think the rule of thumb is a week or two before a diff goes stale, so the timeline remaining on this is running out (oldest diff I noticed is from 10 days ago). It could possibly get WP:CSD'd or WP:MfD'd once any of the diffs on the page go past 14 days, despite the 90-day notice on the page. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 22:08, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• Per WP:POLEMIC The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. ANI and AE are part of the dispute resolution process (albeit the tail end), so it's OK for that. "Timely" is subject to interpretation, but if you believe it's been around too long without being used, or unlikely to be used soon, bringing it to MfD would allow a consensus to determine whether the "timeliness" factor had been breached. BMK (talk) 22:15, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Also note that Arbcom frequently simply blanks userspace evidence pages after closing the case. For instance, User:John Carter/Ebionites 2 evidence (at this revision) contains some diffs that are years old. --Tgeairn (talk) 22:32, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm just curious, BMK, what do you think about User:DHeyward/My Fan Club? If the information is not actually used for the DR process, should it be proposed for deletion in two weeks? Right now, it seems like an enemies list even though the wording is exceedingly polite so it can't be seen as an attack page even if that is its purpose. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:01, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: It looks to me like an "enemies list" which are strictly forbidden. It should go to MfD after DHeyward is asked on his talk page to delete it himself, which I will do now. BMK (talk) 00:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I've left DHeyward a message asking him to delete the page. [81]. BMK (talk) 00:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not optimistic that he'll choose to delete the page but I appreciate you assessing the situation and offering your perspective on it, BMK. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

DHeyward deleted my request without comment, so I've nominated the page for deletion here. BMK (talk) 04:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. John Carter (talk) 20:08, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The evidence page under discussion here is a list of diffs and quotes with little or no interpretation, has a clear intent, and has a deletion date (with a clearly stated request for any admin to delete after that date). --Tgeairn (talk) 22:32, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to nominate the Ebionites 2 page for deletion if you so see fit, but I think it is also true that user pages which are actively used in arbitration cases, such as the one you link to, are different as they contain some of the evidence used in the arbitration. I also note that your comments do not address the matter of the use of the word "timely", even though you seem to have perhaps somewhat arbitrarily decided 90 days qualifies as timely, and I think, under the circumstances, as the person collecting the material, you are probably not the best person to determine how to apply the relevant policies and guidelines. John Carter (talk) 22:41, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely (although I'd suggest a better title e.g. "sandbox3"). . There's a falsehood on the page: The page is not linked elsewhere by its creator; see link on WP:EW. NE Ent 22:59, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you NE Ent. I have corrected the (already closed) ANEW filing and notified the closing admin of the mistaken link, with a recommendation that they reconsider the outcome of the filing if appropriate. Given that the ANEW report considered an editor that was edit warring on my user page and on the subpage we are discussing here, it is likely that the closing admin would have seen the page anyway. That does not change that it was an entirely inappropriate mistake on my part to link to it as evidence in the ANEW filing. --Tgeairn (talk) 23:23, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

You mean at WP:EWN, right? John Carter (talk) 00:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Correct - WP:ANEW and WP:EWN are both shortcuts to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Thanks for making sure. --Tgeairn (talk) 01:11, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Editor making a series of personal attacks

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User:Marcos12 appears to be not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to make various personal comments and attacks against other editors, namely myself. They have edit-warred on other user talk pages to repeatedly insert said personal attacks. They have falsely edited my talk page posts in a juvenile and disparaging manner. This appears to stem from a disagreement as to sourcing in the Violet Blue article, but I am at a loss to explain their overtly-hostile response and their immediate resort to personal attacks rather than reasoned discussion. I have repeatedly requested that the user refrain from making these personal attacks, but they have thus far refused. I request appropriate administrative action be taken against the user. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:31, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe one of the particular insults in this is a reference to contents this suppressed edit. I might be mistaken though, as I'm working from memory. — Strongjam (talk) 17:40, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I am Latino, and I am PROUD of that fact. It has no basis in what we are talking about here. Just to put things i perspective, I have a six year old son, and a twelve year old son. From time to time, they look at wikipedia. Today I was met by my 12 year old, Jeff, with tears in his eyes asking me "Dad, why does this man hate you so much?" and pointing to the latest comment NBSB made on my page. Furthermore I have NEVER edited NBSB talk page in a juvenile manner, and when I edited MY OWN TALK PAGE, I IMMEDIATELY realized my mistake and self-reverted. The level of hate being directed toward me is unbelievable. NBSB claims I have edit warred on other users talk pages to disparage him - RUBBISH. I was very clear that the situation I had outlined (trouser-fouling) had NO basis in real life. NONE. The disclaimer was in BOLD PRINT at the top and bottom of said comment. Can someone please gie me the benefit of the doubt here??? I STOPPED editing Gamergate in an effort to do the right thing and was met with immediate hostility.

Furthermore, User:strongjam lied and accused me of making personal attacks (exclusive of anything dealing with NBSB) [82]. Why is he allowed to call me a liar with NO BASIS in fact for his accusations???? Marcos12 (talk) 17:45, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Marcos12: That statement is referring to the comments you wrote about NBSB. — Strongjam (talk) 17:48, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Strongjam: Ok, I understand that. But Strongjam, please! I went to NBSB talk page and (I'm paraphrasing here) said "I am truly sorry for offending you in any way. I am going through a personal crisis, and sometimes y emotions bleed through to wikipedia. There is no excuse, however I would ask for your forgiveness as until last night, we have had eseentially zero interaction". I know of no other way to apologize for an argument that became too heated. I have stepped away from Gamergate. I have listened to your suggestions. And yet, this morning I had to have another talk with my 12 year old son about how hate still exists in this world, and that hate is magnified for people of color like us. Let's try to BUILD an encyclopedia here. I'm game! I will listen to anyone's suggestions provided they arent threats and intimidation. Marcos12 (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

This appears to be a shining example of the Chewbacca defense by an obvious troll, and I trust that responding administrators will detect its transparent nature. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:58, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I do not believe that Marcos12 is here to improve the encyclopedia. --Jorm (talk) 18:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'd be willing to assume frustration from most of the diffs in isolation, but this one screams WP:NOTHERE if someone doesn't presents some evidence of that editor's usefulness. Looking through on my own, I'm seeing an almost singular focus on attempting to legitimize Gamergate (continuing up to yesterday), and BLP violations (one of them revdel'd) on an article about a female author who focuses on sexuality. That makes me suspect that we need to at least topic ban the editor from any pages relating to feminism, female sexuality, and any living women (even both transwomen and transmen, simply because they have become or were identified as women at some point). Given how broad such a ban is, and the personal attacks, a block would be less trouble. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:04, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed with Ian.thomson, I think that he should be blocked for [83] VandVictory (talk) 18:09, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Jorm for your opinion. NBSB - is it not true that I made FOUR separate attempts to apologize to you ON YOUR USER PAGE? All were reverted and ridiculed. Every single time I attempt to make a civilized overture I am met with scorn and contempt. Yes, I went to a community college - does that make me LESS of an editor???? I am the first man in our family to graduate from college. Yes, again, I am PROUD of that fact. Even if I could have gotten into to U Penn, I would not have been able to afford the tuition, but the point is this is all window dressing and distraction. There is NO" Chewbacka defense". I have been ridiculed regularly both on-wiki and more importantly OFF WIKI [84].

My final request is this - find someone who is vehemently ANTI gamergate and ask them if ANY of my edits EVER have been in bad faith. Ask them! I trust my fellow editors will tell the truth. Yes, we have had robust discussions, but they never denegrated to hatred until NBSB waded into the fray. Marcos12 (talk) 18:13, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

There is a difference between other editors showing patience and your behavior being acceptable. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Ian, I TOTALLY agree about this one, except that you are missing the fact that I IMMEDIATELY self-reverted literally 3 seconds later. It was done in frustration. I agreed to walk away from GG and I DID. Blocking me from all these other topics makes no sense man! I've been above-board the whole time, albeit my opinions go against the mainstream. Can I humbly ask for a week long block and then let me come back as a full user??? Marcos12 (talk) 18:18, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

No, the purpose of blocks is prevention, not punishment. You've demonstrated little interest in anything except pushing a chauvinist POV, and a week long block would not fix that. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Agree with User:VandVictory - [85] is well over the line of appropriate conduct. Simonm223 (talk) 18:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Simom223: Simom, please, did you read the BOLD PRINT disclaimer I made at the bottom of the edit. I was very clear my statements did not refer to anyone in particular and that they were fiction. Also, did you see the off-wiki collaboration where I have been threatened, doxed, ridiculed, and accused of abuse?? http://sealionsofwikipedia.com/?p=335 Marcos12 (talk) 18:30, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Obvious case. I have not idea what invoking "Latino" or "community college" has to do with anything, so many red herrings here it starts to make a shoal.Jeppiz (talk) 18:35, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

May I make one humble request? May I be allowed to resign? Marcos12 (talk) 18:42, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no such thing as resignation here. You could have stopped editing at any point, but you didn't. Even if you quit now, I still support a block of your account so you can't just waltz back here once you think we've forgotten about you. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

For God's sake then PLEASE block me for a few weeks rather than indefinitely. PLEASE. Marcos12 (talk) 18:52, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

A new diff. Refactoring NBSB comment. — Strongjam (talk) 18:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Strongjam, I can't stop other people from EDITING MY TALK PAGE. Marcos12 (talk) 18:57, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a problem if you weren't a chauvinist troll. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ok, that means obvious troll is obvious. I think we've got a clear consensus to indefinitely block Marcos12. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Resignation per se is always possible. You can put up a retired banner on your page. My view is that indef blocks and bans should be a last resort. That said there is no doubt that marcos has crossed the line and we need to address this. To which end I...

...support a 30 day block with a warning to stay clear of subjects that are likely to provoke intemperate responses and a very clear further warning that if this subject has to be revisited ever again, that he will be blocked indefinitely. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:06, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support finite block so the user can take the dog for a walk. The most recently posted diff, in which the user edited a no personal attacks warning template to insert a new personal attack, shows a shocking lack of self-awareness, and then claims it wasn't them (it was - anyone can read the diff). I do strongly suspect that the user is not here to build an encyclopedia but I have to grant that this tantrum seems to be an isolated incident. However, they're on the path to a ban if they keep this up. Ivanvector (talk) 19:24, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'd be more open to that if he had demonstrated any interests outside of Gamergate and Violet Blue, or if his edits there weren't full of serious POV problems; and if he hadn't engaged in this sort of behavior after this thread started. The begging sounds like every other troll I've heard in the past who does that to lull us into thinking they won't come back under that account (and others) right.

As it is, since he's been of little (if any) use to the site, and his behavior since this thread started indicates either trolling or terminal WP:CIR issues. Support block, preferably indefinite. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:28, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• In light of this diff, I strongly support indefinite block. Already showed to have a bad attitude, the user deliberately vandalise while this discussion is ongoing, and then even have the nerve to come up with this [86]. The user is clearly not here to build a Wikipedia, and the last diff shows that the user has no intention of being honest with us. If there's a finite ban, I'd suggest six months.Jeppiz (talk) 20:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Your second link should be this [87] I think. — Strongjam (talk) 20:20, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Strongjam: Of course, thanks for spotting it! Now corrected.Jeppiz (talk) 20:24, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Wow, tusks, tusks, everywhere. Hear me out, I Oppose any sanctions if the user is genuinely sorry for their previous actions and promises they will not repeat their actions. From what I hear, the user is genuinely sorry for their actions, and they have stated they will make constructive edits if they are not blocked. Remember, Sanctions are preventive, not punitive. Weegeerunner (talk) 21:22, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Given the ArbCom's recent re-affirmation that they want their sanctions applied ridiculously broadly, and that NBSB has been widely covered in the sources as someone being targeted by gg trolls and therefore within a broad application of the sanctions, and given Marcos12's fixation on GG topics, and given that Marcos12 JUST GOT BACK from a gg related block, the "genuinely sorry" seems not applicable - a strong application of the tools available for minimizing disruption should be applied. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:35, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Where was NBSB covered in the sources? Just curious. Other than that, I am going to go the fuck away, as I feel I have just done something horribly wrong. Weegeerunner (talk) 21:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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Personal attack by Nagakura shin8

Whilst I am not afraid of robust debate, I was shocked by the vitriol in this edit by Nagakura shin8 (talk}. I have seen editors receive lengthy blocks for far less. I would think a 24 hour block might be appropriate as a shot across the bows. - Nick Thorne ^talk 00:25, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree that's pretty nasty, but it's hardly unprovoked. As to the dispute, the Australian pronunciation of "emu" may be dominant (as a Canadian, I pronounce it as you describe - even though I say "jaguar" with two syllables and otherwise agree with American pronunciation in many respects), but I don't think I can support calling any pronunciation "incorrect" if it's the established pronunciation of a major body of speakers. It's just variant pronunciation, just like variant spelling. And heaven knows Wikipedia has seen enough arguments over that. It hardly surprises me that another editor might take exception to that, even if the response is disproportionate. 70.24.4.51 (talk) 04:05, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I did not bring this matter here to resolve the content dispute. If I have over stepped the line on conduct, I will take my licks, but I at least tried to keep my comments civil. However, Ns8's response is way out of proportion to anything I said and is disparaging and deeply offensive. That is the matter I brought here. - Nick Thorne ^talk 09:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a great deal of civility in your comment, Nick, I see anti-American insults. If you attack Americans (or any other nationality) in that way, you should not be surprised to see them fight back. And you shouldn't come complaining if you can't take what you dish out. Squinge (talk) 10:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you can compare the two editors' remarks. While neither is civil, Nagakura shin8's second comment is a completely over-the-top response. Additionally, it was he/she that first brought up the American vs. Australian comparison that Nick Thorne then responded to. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, been busy IRL. I apologise unreservedly for for any offence caused by my comments. BTW, the content issue is largely resolved, I think. However, I am disturbed by this. I am not perfect but I have heard and heed the advice given here and on my talkpage, I will strike the offending words. - Nick Thorne ^talk 05:34, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Gotta love the social norms around here. WP:NPA is policy, but has no bearing if both parties are insulting each other. Just go on your merry ways. Sigh. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:44, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• No one said NPA has no bearing if both parties are insulting each other. But we have to remember that there are living, breathing people behind every account. Disputes can get heated. Most people will get offended if they feel insulted, and many will respond by returning fire. It just happens. In this case, both parties provoked each other with very serious and cutting insults. While Nick's comments were certainly more passive-agressive reserved I don't think they were any less offensive to Nagakura, and he has no grounds to come here and ask for a one-way block when he's equally at fault for escalating the dispute. I recognize and appreciate him redacting his comments and apologizing, that's the civil thing to do and the correct course of action. But it doesn't change the fact that he's partially at fault for the situation blowing up to begin with. We could certainly dish out blocks here in terms of severe personal attacks, but I think both editors have already cooled off and the actual dispute seems to already be resolved. I don't think a block would serve as a preventative measure in this case. Swarm ^X 18:16, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• While this level-headed approach seems wisdom on the surface, I've been here long enough to know it's a failed way of handling such disputes. It simply doesn't work. A polite tap on the wrist saying "please don't do that again" doesn't work. If someone is able to be riled up by what a completely unknown person (to them) says about them or something they care about, they've got serious problems with being able to hold their tongue. The behavior exhibited in such cases will happen again; the characters in question will have too quick of a trigger finger. In this particular case, we're seeing it continue right before our eyes. With this edit we're seeing not only continued gross incivility after this thread here on AN/I had begun, but a threat to continue in the future; "don't include insults to other countries ... and your country won't be insulted. It's not really very difficult" Meanwhile, just the mere beginnings of a cursory review of Nagakura shin8's edits show other incivility [88]. I'm finding other evidence of incivility on his part as well. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:51, 26 March 2015 (UTC:)

Agree with Nick Thorne on this one. I don't think that kind of nastiness is acceptable, no matter what was said before. I do not agree with the above response by the IP user that it was "hardly unprovoked." I saw what Nick wrote and, as an American, was not offended in the least. Additionally, responding this way makes Americans look a lot worse than anything Nick Thorne said. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:25, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Latest IAC meatpuppet

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122.162.28.57 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Dealt with by User:Nakon. Might be worth revoking tp access if its anything like the rest of them. Amortias (T)(C) 20:12, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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Legal threats by MitchOssimPants

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This may be minor, but User:MitchOssimPants' user page says "...or you will be sued". An IP blanked/modified the page twice, and I reverted it with huggle until I saw it was a threat. This is from three years ago, I don't know the statue of limitations of the matter. Kharkiv07^Talk 23:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I deleted the page as WP:CSD#U5 and left a message on their talk page. Apparently the account was created merely to stake a claim to the name, which is problematic enough if they're not otherwise editing, plus the legal threat was just too much. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 23:51, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Rita Sullivan

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Hi, Can someone with a mop move this back to Rita Sullivan. I think i've tagged all the other unnessecary redirects but i cant move it back. Amortias (T)(C) 23:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• User:EurekaLott did it. --Tito Dutta (talk) 02:03, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

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User:86.145.107.226

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Please block 86.145.107.226 (talk · contribs) whom I met edit warring on Promised land and according to his talkpage is involved in numerous other edit wars. His most recent edits seem to be the useless additions of spaces. Debresser (talk) 01:33, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. In the future, please use WP:ANEW for reports like this. --Jayron32 01:36, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

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Removal of incident

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Would an administrator kindly mark an issue as "Resolved" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive275#User:GeorgeLouis_reported_by_User:Purplebackpack89_.28Result:_.29? I removed myself from the discussion about the contested issue for a period of one week, and it has now been eight days. Thank you? BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 16:52, 26 March 2015 (UTC) (Former name George Louis)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Where is this user copy/pasting this from?

User:Apismell2015 is copy/pasting information into the European dark bee article [89] given the way it has clear attempts at in-line citation and speaks from the point of view "we" ("We have information also about the large populations of this bee in the Altai Region of the Republic of Udmurtia."), however, my Google-fu can't find it. How should I handle this? [90] --DawnDusk (talk) 06:22, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Let me add that now WP:3RR should be fully enforced (him reverting both myself and ClueBot, God bless), and that I've left several messages on the man's talk page before this, but he's bent on making edits to this article with no summary whatsoever. Judging by the username and style, he's definitely an eastern poster; I have a bit of experience with them already [91] so don't think I'm ignorant here... DawnDusk (talk) 06:54, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you'll find they are one of the authors from the sources they cite. If 3RR is exceeded report at AN3. Flat Out let's discuss it 07:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

From the username (Apis mellifera?), it seems like this is probably an SPA. I agree that the user is probably a researcher citing his or her own work, which would probably make this person a Russian scientist – but who knows. The lack of communication, poor formatting, and undue weight on Russian history are all problematic, but I don't see any evidence that this is a copyright violation. It's a pain to deal with these kinds of situations because you can never truly know what's going on. You could try DRN if you think the additions are undue weight. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:17, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Alleasynet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Abuse of talk page after block. Please revoke talk page access. --ToonLucas22 (talk) 21:44, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Uh... I can't see any edits made to the talk page after the block was put in place, the only edit I can see is the one before the block. MadGuy7023 (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

No edits after the one you reverted, just my block notice. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 22:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Close? Not close?

With reference to this proposal. I feel like it needs more votes, but it's been open most of a month already...not sure the bot's not about to archive it. ResMar 15:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

It looks like there hasn't been any substantive debate since 19 March, so keeping it open would just drag it out for no reason. I think the bot will archive it but only when it's been inactive for (is it 2 weeks?) - you could request a close at WP:AN to at least get an evaluation of the discussion. The result looks fairly clear to me but I'm neither an admin nor an experienced closer. Ivanvector (talk) 16:02, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Unexplained blanking and original research

• 123.100.149.51 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

IP user User:123.100.149.51 (Talk) has repeatedly made edits of unexplained blanking and original research with an apparent right-wing viewpoint over a period of several months in at least the following recent examples:

10 February: Unexplained blanking: Christianity and politics (diff here)

10 February: Unexplained blanking: Jehovah's Witnesses and governments (diff here)

March 22: Original research: Christian right (diff here) Then repeated same edits after being reverted: (diff here)

March 26: Unexplained blanking and Original research: Capitalism (diff here)

March 26: Unexplained removal of image: Organized crime (diff here) Then original research: (diff here) Then unexplained removal of category: (diff here)

The IP user has repeatedly ignored warnings posted to their talk page after each of these cases; then they blank their talk page after each warning (see their Talk page history), causing editors who provide further warnings to usually make only a level 1 warning. Let me know if I can do anything more to help. Prhartcom (talk) 19:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Have you tried to actually discuss the matter by actually writing a personalized, targeted message that explains the issues in detail? Templated warnings are basically useless in communicating with users, which is why they are ignored. If you want someone to change their behavior, being personal with them, and showing a willingness to ask about and listen to their explanations for their motivations is a good way to do so. Slapping a templated warning on a talk page does not cause changes of behavior. --Jayron32 19:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank-you for your suggestion. Yes, I had placed a personalized, targeted message today, the same day as this report. Perhaps we should wait a day or so to see if the IP editor responds to it, per your suggestion. I am uninvolved otherwise; I simply noticed that I had warned this user before and then noticed others had been warning them also, then saw the the pattern of ignored warnings and the continued POV-pushing behavior. I have been going through their edits and see several other similar POV edits that others reverted but did not warn. Prhartcom (talk) 20:52, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The IP's first warning was by Cluebot on March 8th last year. About 11 editors have left further warnings. Looking at the talk page blankings, most if not all would have encountered an empty talk page. I blocked the IP last May with the message ":Ignored warnings. Deletion and changing sourced text at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 May 24[92] shows this editor has some sort of agenda. I'm not arguing against it, but these sorts of edits don't belong here." Dougweller (talk) 17:00, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

IP Range 62.128.211.2XX

• 62.128.211.216 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 62.128.211.251 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 62.128.211.202 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Over the last week, this IP range has been following me around randomly undoing my edits on unconnected articles i.e. just to be annoying with no other apparent reason for the revert. It's happened on three IPs in the same dynamic range (see history on each of the above - undoing my edits is pretty much all that's in the contribs). It's obviously someone socking who I upset at some point. It's quite trivial but it is annoying. Any suggestions on what can be done? (It's a dynamic IP so only notified last one) DeCausa (talk) 09:21, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The range (62.128.211.192/26) is tiny, with only 64 IP addresses, but even so there's unrelated edits coming from the range. Not inclined to do a range block. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok - I guess I'll just have to put up with it then. DeCausa (talk) 17:35, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Request to have unfair block reviewed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Enchev EG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Germanwings Flight 9525 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Whilst contributing to the Germanwings_Flight_9525 article I became aware of a closed discussion opened by Enchev EG headed, "It was suicide" but later renamed, "Latest reports point to suicide" on the Talk page. The author of the discussion had provided reasons why he felt suicide was the reason for the disaster. I observed that English might not be his/her first language and that he/she was finding resistance to his points made with the help of historical and technical data. I personally found this quite worrying as he/she was effectively being bullied. He was accused of pushing his agenda and later, further down the page he was called a troll and told to go away...how charming!

It was my understanding that anyone is entitled to contribute to Wikipedia as long as it is done in a manner which adds to the article content. I feel this user was not given a proper opportunity to develop his argument which ironically as it turns out would appear to be the reason for the crash. He was in fact spot on!

This morning I discovered Enchev EG had been handed a two week block and all because he/she had made an unacceptable comment out of pure frustration. I can empathize with him/her because I can see he/she genuinely wanted to add to the article but other users with their own clear agenda weren't having it.

Please review this matter. 87.114.172.97 (talk) 17:27, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Your editing histories are really remarkably similar. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 17:35, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I haven't made any contributions to Wikipedia for well over a year so how on earth can our editing histories be similiar? 87.114.172.97 (talk) 17:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Apart from 35 since yesterday on the German wings crash!!! lol _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 18:04, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

And that constitutes the basis of your editing history claim? An admin with the appropriate permissions can verify that we probably aren't even on the same continent. Irrespective, I await with interest the blocking admin Mjroots justification for his/her actions. 87.114.172.97 (talk) 18:25, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support block - The registered editor's history shows a history of showing up at articles about air crashes and being disruptive. This is irrelevant to the unregistered editor, whose edits can be reviewed on their own merits. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:31, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support block per WP:NPA - entirely unacceptable comment, entirely justified block. No comment on the IP. Ivanvector (talk) 18:58, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment partly involved, I hatted the section. My opinion is to avoid drama and not to feed the trolls. -- Aronzak (talk) 19:03, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Obviously support block —they weren't blocked for their unproductive comments on the talk page, they were blocked for an explicit personal attack against another editor.[93] Swarm ^X 19:39, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support block although I am involved in that I blocked the user for a week for disruptive behaviour on another accident article recently, no evidence that the user is here to build an encyclopedia. MilborneOne (talk) 19:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment User was blocked today for abuse that occurred over three weeks ago. This may have been the easy option but I don't think it was correct and/or in line with policies. User has had a final warning for using talk pages as a discussion forum and arguably was involved in similar on germanwings talk page but a two week block without a further warning seems harsh. Some useful stuff was being added. 95.151.99.246 (talk) 19:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose block. Seems to have done nothing wrong at best, not enough wrong to be punished like that at worst. An examination of some of the things written during this exchange proves at times unsettling and much of this is not from Enchev EG (who themselves wrote at least once: "I was not rude", perhaps in response to accusations of the same).

• Enchev EG, the person blocked, was told "You have a better chance of being listened to if you make a rational argument" (which it seems s/he was doing).
• Enchev EG was told what s/he was saying was "outlandish" (it wasn't).
• A not untypical response received by Enchev EG (capitals included): "THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT!"
• A particularly outrageous and immature quote from this whole sorry affair (given that 150 people are dead and untold numbers of family members are dealing with the aftermath) was even written partially in bold (needless to say, this was not the blocked user themselves): "So you in fact mean: IT WAS SUICIDE OR HIJACKING BECAUSE PILOTS BOTH WENT TO THE TOILET BECAUSE OF AN AIRLINE STRIKE! Great." I presume the last word to be sarcasm. Either way it reflects atrociously on the attitude of this User:Martinevans123, who in my opinion should be penalised given the seriousness of the situation.

What penalty would you suggest? Would you like to inform this User:Martinevans123 that you are discussing a penalty? I thought (and still think) that was a fair summary of what had been posted and what would have made a more accurate heading for that thread (later carefully "adjusted" by someone). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Unless this editor had some kind of "special access" to the as yet undisclosed analysis of the CVR, or of the pilot's motives, (both of which possibilities seem extremely unlikely), I would regard the accusation that a pilot had deliberately flown an aircraft into a mountain, killing 150 people, as a wholly unreasonable defamation. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• As for the general standard of some other replies (examples include "Blah blah blah" and "Go troll somewhere else" and "I'll not answer you again, don't have the time") and the goading ("can't see him lasting that long") of Enchev EG as "the problem" and his/her words as "grammatically incorrect" (we're not all blessed with good grammar and those who see fit only to mock might examine their manners) I am led to conclude that it is the most dignified person who has been punished here. --Greykit (talk) 19:58, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, my sentiments exactly. Enchev EG made one silly comment, which he/she has since apologised for, after being harangued yet others get away with calling him/her names and making derogatory comments. I would go further and say he/she was ridiculed and made fun of because of his pigeon English. If he had an agenda it was to get to the truth, the agenda of those who taunted him might be somewhat more difficult to determine but I have my own thoughts on that. 87.114.172.97 (talk) 20:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

You think that almost incomprehensible and (at the time) wholly unjustified contribution was "one silly comment"? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:44, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment This was Enchev EG's post that started the current situation. It matters not that the claim has turned out to be correct. My reply was that an extraordinary claim required an extraordinary source, which was not provided. There was no way that such a claim was going to get into the article without one. I first came across Enchev EG at the talk page of the TransAsia Airways Flight 235 article. You will note the similarity of the post, an extraordinary claim not backed up by a RS, and also SHOUTING! The block was for this reply in response to this final warning. I've never had occasion to deal with Escape Orbit so have no dog in the fight there, so to speak. My impression is that Enchev EG is a SPA here to push an agenda. Unless there is a rapid improvement in their behaviour, I forsee the community losing patience with him before too long. Sorry for the delay in replying, but I'm a bit under the waether atm. Mjroots (talk) 20:33, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The fact that the PA went undetected for 23 days is immaterial IMHO. Mjroots (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
    • I should have said yesterday that I went to Enchev EG's talk page to see what warnings had been issued in respect of WP:NOTFORUM, with the possibility of a block in mind. I didn't realise that the PA was as old as it was, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it should be allowed to go without any consequences. Mjroots (talk) 07:42, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support block - At TransAsia Airways Flight 235, Enchev EG repeatedly engaged in WP:FORUM on the talk page and ignored repeated warnings about it. Here is a typical comment from them, from the archives of that talk page: For example, my comments are closely monitored by the CIA and each of them is interpreted by their analyst. Then their lies are coordinated in such a way with my comments, that they do not contradict with them - before being sent to the media. They received a one-week block and, thankfully, did not return after the block expired. They reappeared for this Germanwings article and started doing the same things again. They don't get the point of NOTFORUM and no amount of explaining can get through to them. The fact that they may have turned out to be correct on some things is completely beside the point, and it doesn't come close to justifying the disruption they cause. If the block reason is a problem, then by all means correct it. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:44, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose block - I think the community should show some good grace and acknowledge that blocking for personal abuse over three weeks ago was not appropriate. Blocking policy forbids retrospective blocking. There may have been other good reasons for blocking him but not for the reason cited. He should be unblocked and given another chance. His behaviour is not particularly disruptive. Mattojgb (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

But don't you think maybe "Escape_Orbit you are fucking moron:))" sends out "slightly the wrong signal"? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

If he was to be blocked for that he should have been blocked at the time.Mattojgb (talk) 21:12, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, he certainly should have been. But it's tricky to hand out a retrospective block, isn't it? Or is three-week old abuse somehow less offensive? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The "another chance" began when the first block expired. I think we've seen what this user does with "another chance". They will get a third chance beginning in about 13 days, and I have no doubt they will be at it again; if not immediately, then after another rest period. The question is how many chances they get before an indeff. As for "his behaviour is not particularly disruptive", you have not been involved in either of the articles in question, so it is not particularly disruptive to you. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:28, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - The unsourced accusation that was made against the pilots is extremely nasty and probably would fall under BLP issues. Geogene (talk) 21:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Comment Just to point out it was this remark on his TP that he was actually blocked for- not specifically any remarks about the crash: diff... 'fucking moron', anyone?!?! _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 21:15, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

On edit: sorry Martinevans123 didn't notice you'd just said that already. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 21:27, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I see that the editor in question has not protested his block or offered any reasons why it should be reversed. And to his great credit he has posted ".. I wish you all a nice day and I apologize if I have offended anyone". In my book that counts for a lot. But then I am just "outrageous and immature", apparently. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:48, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Overturn block per WP:NOTPUNITIVE - apologies for not noticing earlier that 23 days went by between the user's posting and the block being set. I'm having a hard time seeing how that was meant to prevent disruption rather than to punish the user. Blocking a user for a transgression that occurred three weeks ago, which wasn't repeated or ongoing, and for which they later apologized, is extremely inappropriate. That looks like hunting for an excuse to block. Now, if we want to talk about whether or not the user should be indeffed per WP:NOTHERE well then fine, but that should be a different block. Ivanvector (talk) 21:42, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support overturn, new block 23 days is a long time, but I don't think that a technicality should allow what seems to be a pattern of disruption to continue. Geogene (talk) 21:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support block. Clear breach of WP:NPA. WWGB (talk) 06:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support block, although WP:Forum would have been the more appropriate reason. Still, even the PA was not entirely singular, questioning the mental health of a user as recently as yesterday. Moreover, the user persistently failed to grasp the principles of Wikipedia and his contributions are explicitly not aimed at improving the articles. Whether his theorycrafting is correct or not is irrelevant. This is not the place. That being said a good part of his claims were 'outlandinsh', e.g. that the plane was hacked by someone with MS Flight Simulator, that it certainly must have been the pilot, or that the CIA is after him. And even if he was correct in all of that, does not matter this is Wikipedia, including the talk pages. A humble contributor (talk) 09:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive behaviour? Since when is it a breach of the rules to put forward some well thought out and well researched information? This member was attacked from the off by a group of established users who frankly should know better. I personally was appalled at the comments made towards him some of which are noted above. So tell me, what action is to be taken against the abusive bullies? 87.114.172.97 (talk) 11:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

"Since when is it a breach of the rules to put forward some well thought out and well researched information?" No original research has been a principle of Wikipedia since 2003. A humble contributor (talk) 12:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose block. While the comment may have violated our NPA guideline, blocks aren't meant to be punitive, and should not be placed over 3 weeks after the offending comment. Besides, they apologized.

  Giving them a new, indefinitely long block would be another issue altogether. Epic Genius (talk) 13:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support Block Right result, wrong reason. Enchev EG should have been blocked after their attempts to add OR onto Talk:Germanwings Flight 9525, as a repeat of behaviour they had been repeatedly warned about (and blocked) before on other articles. Regardless of whether this latest theory turned out to be right, it doesn't change the fact that it was, and is, original research and there has been no indication that Enchev EG won't continue this behaviour. Otherwise we may as well say that OR guesswork is OK on talk pages, just as long as you can be shown at a later date to have guessed right once in a while.

I didn't report this abuse because I hoped it was just frustration, and that Enchev EG was finally getting the message. It resulted in he/she removing some other stuff from talk pages, so I hoped this indicated he/she understood exactly why he/she had been warned, and was slowly learning. But the same actions on Talk:Germanwings Flight 9525 just a few weeks later suggest that Enchev EG just can't help herself/himself. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:27, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

So Enchev made a mistake by lashing out at his abusers. Now, what action is going to be taken against them or do they get off Scott Free being part of the 'gang'? 87.114.172.97 (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Checkuser and Oversight appointments 2015: Voting on the candidates

Following community consultation, the Arbitration Committee is now voting on appointments to the Checkuser and Oversight roles at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions. Comments are welcomed at that page.

For the Arbitration Committee;

Courcelles (talk) 19:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

IP editing userspace pages

198.102.153.1 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) recently edited several userspace pages of different editors, the edits don't appear to be vandalism but s/he doesn't leave any edit summaries. I reverted three of his edits which were made to users' main userpages, it seemed like the right thing to do. I tried asking but it looks like the IP doesn't like my tone. Can anyone else confirm if we have a problem here or not? — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 19:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

They've started leaving edit summaries. Looks like they're chasing down and fixing broken redirects due to userboxes being migrated to user space. I don't see any problems with what they are doing. Do you have specific edits that look disruptive? --Jayron32 19:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually it's most of the sandbox edits that look like a problem, people can have their own reasons for using invalid templates and whatever in their tests, also newbies can get confused when their version of their sandbox suddenly looks different and they won't know why; one user has directly complained to the IP for editing his sandbox; also it's absolutely unclear here where the IP got that content from since the template they substed didn't exist. I think he should generally stay out of sandboxes/test pages and always provide an (understandable) explanation when editing others' userpages. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 19:30, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Behaviour of Walter Görlitz

The user Walter Görlitz (talk) has been involved in various edit wars and ignorant reversions/discussions on articles of and related to Adam Young. This user refuses to accept fact as grounds to edit the article and has taken it upon himself to "preside" over the article and undo any new edit that he deems unworthy. Perhaps worse than this is he will then post "warning" messages on other users' talk pages not to start edit wars (which he has begun by serially reverting).

I completely understand Wikipedia policy referring to edits/sources, but this user is instantly deleting anything that doesn't comply with his literal translation of policy - completely undermining the spirit of a community edited encyclopaedia. Instead, I am left with no choice but to raise this as an official incident in the hope that he will be told to, in so many words, "let others play".

I hope I haven't come off as disrespectful, but when a user is as persistent in making other editors' time on Wikipedia totally non-enjoyable, I feel a strong approach is needed.

--Samcooke343 (talk) 00:59, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

@Samcooke343: You must notify the person you are starting a discussion about on their Talk page. I have notified Walter Görlitz about this thread for you, but in future please notify them. Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 01:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

@Samcooke343: My apologies, I see you've done this already but it was removed from the Talk page. JMHamo (talk) 01:14, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

This interpretation of events is novel at best.

First, let's look at his current issue. Template:Infobox musical artist#instrument, says

Instruments listed in the infobox should be limited to only those that the artist is primarily known for using. The instruments infobox parameter is not intended as a WP:COATRACK for every instrument the subject has ever used.

He was reverted by two separate editors: I was the first and this was the second.

Also, I did let him play. He made multiple genre changes that I saw and didn't revert. I'm not sure why he thinks that Wikipedia is a playground though and why he, as a musician, is more capable of recognizing a genre than other editors. See WP:GWAR.

Second, "facts" are not the ground for Wikiedpia edits, WP:V is. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:07, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Third, I spend multiple hours on Wikiedpedia and know various policies and guidelines and come into contact with casual editors. My goal is to educate them on those policies and guidelines. It's clear not all of them appreciate being told that they're not editing according community consensus. That brings me into conflict with them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:07, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

On the instrument issue, this is more or less as difficult as genres and associated acts. But yeah, only most well-known instruments. I don't know Adam Young very well, so I wouldn't know. -- Joseph Prasad (talk) 01:30, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

@Samcooke343: As Walter Görlitz said, "fact" alone is not a justification for anything on Wikipedia. It's one of the more counter-intuitive but fundamental principles guiding the project: Verifiability, not truth or what an editor declares truth, is what matters. In other words, if you want to add something, just add a source. On the talk page it looks like you included a couple sources, but they're just videos that include Young playing the instruments you said he's "known for" playing. That's not sufficient. It's a primary source and it's original research to say that he's "known for" playing them just because there are videos of him playing those instruments. Again, all that's needed is to support your claim with reliable sources. WP:BURDEN is a particularly relevant part of the Verifiability policy here. The other issue is stylistic. You added the word "sophomore" to refer to his second album. Walter pointed you to MOS:SOPHOMORE in his edit summary, but then you restored it. I understand the frustration of being reverted, and I don't know that I agree or disagree with Walter's revert here, but restoring the word that's even included in the link MOS:SOPHOMORE suggests learning about best practices for writing might not be a priority -- or rather, I could see how it could give someone that impression. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:39, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Rhododendrites, which is not an uncommon situation in which to find myself. I understand that it's frustrating to be reverted, but both combatants should probably try to communicate a bit better. Maybe we could try to deescalate the conflict and take the debate to the talk page. There hasn't been a post there in six months. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:57, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Anyone can add a page to their watchlist, without claiming ownership of an article. I wonder why this was even being discussed. Elohim55 (talk) 14:14, 27 March 2015 (UTC) Sockpuppet of blocked user. BMK (talk) 21:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Editor with recent breaches of policy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Royalmate1's recent history has some concerning edits that are, at best, bitey but could be an indication of a general disregard for Wikipedia's policies as indicated by this edit's edit summary [94]. Some of the recent problematic edits starting with the most recent: personal attack, personal attack, accusing editor of vandalism in a content dispute, and personal attack. The user is currently in several permission groups that involve frequent user interaction, specifically rollback and pending changes reviewer, and because of what is at best a lack of understanding of policies that apply to user interaction I think these rights should be removed. Note that the user was recently blocked for the first personal attack. PhantomTech (talk) 22:39, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Probably deserving of an indef imo. Another gem. Blackmane (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I have increased the block to indef, as the user either does not understand copyright law, or has no intention of obeying it. -- Diannaa (talk) 02:20, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The user in question here clearly understands Wikipedia policy. Have you even looked at his userpage? I think the problem here was with the admins' refusal to be intelligent about the incident here because of some supposed personal attacks. Increased blocks here is really just stupid, seeing as he is a rollbacker with thousands of extremely helpful edits and article creations. Shame on the admins, honestly. Elohim55 (talk) 14:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC) Sockpuppet of blocked user Royalmate1. BMK (talk) 22:00, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Somebody just got accused of being a liar and a felon right here at ANI

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Alleged in this diff: [95]. I'm shocked. The (unnamed) miscreants should be found and punished, or else the accuser should be punished. Would this fall under NLT or NPA? Geogene (talk) 01:14, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

If you will notice, the subject is COI and COI-like editing. It is a general discussion. Chill out. petrarchan47tc 01:23, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh. Sorry. Geogene (talk) 01:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Archival of Deleted Material

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Hello. Editor DHeyward (talk · contribs) recently created a page he used to store diffs of people he believed were hounding or otherwise attacking him. This came under discussion for deletion as a potential WP:ATTACKPAGE. While this discussion was ongoing, DHeyward blanked the page and then requested that it be deleted, which it was. However, he has archived the page here. Despite polite requests from myself and an attempt by Beyond My Ken (talk · contribs) to remove this material, he has edited to preserve it. I would request that the material be deleted. Cheers! PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I archived what I no longer needed and didn't need wikidrama on a separate page so the page was deleted at my request. There is nothing negative and there is nothing unsourced and no policy violations. I would hope that PeterTheFourth (who argued at deletion that it should be kept, which is quite the opposite of claiming it's an attack page here - it can't magically become an attack page through archiving). PeterTheFourth needs to stop hounding me around Wikipedia. I don't know what his issue is. --DHeyward (talk) 02:53, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I stated that it should be kept if it were to be used in dispute resolutions, per policy (WP:POLEMIC). Apparently you weren't aiming to use it in dispute resolution, so I don't believe this material should be stored on Wikipedia. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:POLEMIC isn't a policy. And since you brought it to ANI, it's now DR. Congrats. How petty a request.--DHeyward (talk) 03:03, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh dear. How should I refer to WP:User_pages and its contents? PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:05, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

From his first edits he is an obvious GamerGate SPA (WP:DUCK) well aware of WP editing. As long as he was editing GamerGate articles, a SPA might be appropriate. Since then he has branched out to articles that I have edited [96] as well as admin space and arbcom space. I'd prefer he use his primary account if he is going to continue to WIKIHOUND me all these drama areas. His branching from GamerGate is a violation of our multiple-account polices. --DHeyward (talk) 03:03, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Maybe just recreate the page and add PeterTheFourth to it since if anybody is, they are hounding and attacking you.--MONGO 03:36, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

If DHeyward blanked the page User talk:DHeyward/My Fan Club after archiving its contents in his Archive 7, while the page was a subject of an active discussion at MfD, that's a pretty good example of WP:Gaming the system. BMK (talk) 04:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

No, I requested to speedy delete a page in my own user space to end pointless drama. MfD actually says you shouldn't have even brought it for deletion but I did you a favor[97]. There's nothing wrong with the content. It's diffs. I can post them here if you like, but I'd rather let them archive away. I could put it on my main talk page or any admins talk page to ask for input too. I had hoped the hounding had stopped. --DHeyward (talk) 05:06, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The subpage was not deleted as an attack, but as a user request. However, had that request not brought the discussion to a close I would have deleted the page in any case as the definition of WP:ATP: "...keeping a "list of enemies" or "list of everything bad user:XXX did" on your user space is neither constructive nor appropriate. Bear in mind that the key to resolving a dispute is not to find and list all the dirt you can find on somebody." DR issues need to be raised in a timely way, or the material stored off-wiki. Not the end of the world either way, but have deleted the material from the archive - in effect what would have occurred had the user requested deletion not proceeded. Happy to email a copy across if/when the stated DR process is due to begin. -- Euryalus (talk) 05:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

What part about the page being a week old did you miss? Diffs showing attacks and snide comments against DHeyward are not attack pages!--MONGO 05:53, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Euryalus And MONGO's point is why it was failing at MfD. It was neither a list of enemies nor a list of everything bad. It was diffs of Wikihounding just in the last week. I can make it an RfC on my talk page if the diffs are examples of wikihounding. Why are you tolerating a WP:DUCK troll whose first edit was to GamerGate arbcom and only topic being GamerGate continue to stalk and harass me? --DHeyward (talk) 06:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh well....it's not hounding until he files a sockpuppet claim against you to compliment his stupid AE complaint and this latest escapade and article stalking he did.--MONGO 06:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

If you'd like to start a dispute resolution process (or an SPI) against any or all of the people in your list, please do so. It's been ten days since you started compiling the list - not an infinite period but not a particularly short one either. To avoid falling foul of ATP, I suggest if you are compiling a DR case you maintain your diff list off-wiki until its ready. And per the above - its not the end of the world either way, but people on "the list" do have policy backing in asking that it be removed and it doesn't seem like much to ask. -- Euryalus (talk) 06:21, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Maybe DHeyward was going to do that. I had a page onsite for two months linking diffs to prepare for an arbcom case...now if he wanted to take that to DR he has to start all over. There are users that have had links up to diffs of comments made by those they disagree with for years.--MONGO 06:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Euryalus Help! I've been attacked on a user page for over four years! [98]--MONGO 07:00, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Umm... isn't WP:MFD the place for this? If the page in question was deleted because the user requested it, then it doesn't necessarily count as a "consensus", and he/she is free to restore it at his/her will. I'm not saying the page shouldn't be deleted (haven't looked into it enough either way), but I don't think this is the right forum for this request. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Euryalus revdeled it before saying I should save it offsite or before anyone discussed it. Had I let it complete, the consensus was "keep" as there is no specific time limit and it's reasonable to keep diffs of harassing and wikistalking for DR. And as we are at ANI, the harassment continues. --DHeyward (talk) 14:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

As above, if you need a copy of these diffs for an imminent DR matter please let me know and I'll send you an email of the deleted material. -- Euryalus (talk) 14:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@Euryalus: Sorry, missed that. Yes, please email a copy of the deleted page. --DHeyward (talk) 15:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Done. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

DHeyward, your definition of harassment is so broad that even me just pointing out here that you have a broad definition of harassment constitutes, in your eyes, harassment (even though it is not a threat, an intimidation or a personal attack). If you still had your list, I'm sure this is a diff that would be added to it. Considering that your enemies list could serve to intimidate other editors, it could constitute harassment (see WP:HARASS). Enough, let's move on and return to editing. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:27, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for commenting. I'm sure you thought it was helpful. --DHeyward (talk) 18:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

92.41.108.109 harassment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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92.41.108.109 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) harasses me on my talk and user page. Sjö (talk) 20:06, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

This is a mobile IP, so perphaps WP:RFPP would be effective. JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:17, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP. Would you like your pages semi'd as well, Sjö? Bishonen | talk 20:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC).

No, but thanks. Seems like he/she has stopped now. Sjö (talk) 21:00, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal Attacks by Poeticbent

I appreciate that Admins are busy people and this is not a case if disruptive editing rather of personal attack, but to save an admin time Poeticbent continues the attack below, writing

"In a frenzy of manipulations and lies he also vehemently objects to having a stake in the sales of this publication."

I could just ignore this and hope it goes away but surely there is supposed to be civility on Wikipedia.Sceptic1954 (talk) 05:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Here are other specific instances where he implies that I and another editor may have COI

Poeticbent’s insinuations

[[99]]

To Lightshow. If you happen to have a wp:conflict of interest, please state it upfront,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Man_who_Broke_into_Auschwitz#Edit_war

To me. I would like to encourage editors with possible interest in improving the online sales of this book, based on our Wikipedia article, to please reveal your identity, and refrain from any further revisions to this entry with the aim of silencing dissent and independent critical thought. Thank you,

Edit summary when reverting my edit on this article 26th March

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Man_who_Broke_into_Auschwitz&action=history

(removal of sourced info based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT, possibleWP:COI → back to referenced wp:lede)

I don’t think he should make such insinuations without very good evidence. He provides none. The article concerns a book ‘The Man who Broke into Auschwitz’. written by a living person Denis Avey. We are both trying to ensure that the lead sentence is conservatively written, that is all. I can’t think that Lightshow has any connection with the publishers, I certainly don’t. Poeticbent needs to be at very least warned about his behaviour Sceptic1954 (talk) 09:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Please would someone review the behaviour of Poeticbent on his/her edits today on 'The Man who Broke into Auschwitz' and his talk page. It is very strange. He has got it into his head that I have a COI, reverts edits without discussing on talkpage even though when requested to do so, and rather rudely deleted my comment on his talk page re his allegations of COI. Perhaps a warning rather than a block would be appropriate. Sceptic1954 (talk) 22:46, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Diffs? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:39, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

In addition, you neglected to notify Poeticbent of this discussion, but I did that for you. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:54, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I did notify him on his talk [ape] page, he removed the notification.Sceptic1954 (talk) 05:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)Sceptic1954 (talk) 09:38, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Found it now. My apologies. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 08:22, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

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This is a frivolous report by a user who is up to his neck in WP:POV, deleting reliable sources based solely on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. In a frenzy of manipulations and lies he also vehemently objects to having a stake in the sales of this publication. Nevertheless, you can see him making a Freudian slip at least once, and admitting to the following when the truth about the fabrication was discovered and made public in England first (quote): "we are likely to get a retraction"... "We"? What "we"? Poeticbent talk 04:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Addendum: There's only one thing I can add to this unprecedented wave of new attacks and refactoring of all posts by User:Sceptic1954. He's been fighting tooth-and-nail since 25 September 2012 to have all references removed pointing out to the fact that the Auschwitz superhero story, fabricated in England, was refuted by Auschwitz Museum director already, on top of the leading Jewish organizations around the world. Poeticbent talk 13:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

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Even after I raise the matter here Poetic bent continues his insinuation that I am COI despite me doing my level best to put him right. "We" simply means the general public, perhaps in particular, as I am a British citizen, the British public. It's now got to the stage where I think he should be blocked for a while for making a personal attack. Sceptic1954 (talk) 05:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, this looks like another example of a seemingly evidence-less COI accusation being used as a WP:Stick in a content dispute. I request a warning +/- a short block on @Poeticbent:. Geogene (talk) 00:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC) Diffs showing this is a repeating dynamic in a content dispute: [100], [101], [102]. Geogene (talk) 01:02, 28 March 2015 (UTC) it' not even evidence less it in fact I'd contradicted by the evidence if Poeticbent were to examine my record on this and the Denis Avey page. That's the strange thing. Sceptic1954 (talk) 06:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Gleekified repeated unsourced material

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This user has been repeatedly adding unsourced material to various articles, such as List of Melissa & Joey episodes and List of Young & Hungry episodes. Warnings have not stopped the disruptive editing. Callmemirela (talk) 01:53, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) S/he hasn't edited since the last warning; let's see what happens. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:40, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The user has continued their behavior. Please help. They aren't listening. Callmemirela (talk) 12:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Again]. Please help. Callmemirela (talk) 22:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Listed at WP:AIV. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 08:25, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

In the last hour, they've posted unsourced content 6 times. Think it's definitely time for a block. I've reported at WP:AIV as well. Joseph2302 (talk) 00:28, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ongoing conflict in Talk:Foie gras

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There is a conflict among a number of editors, which is becoming quite heated among at least two of them, of them at Talk:Foie gras; sections restoration of duplicate content, detailed Legislation section and RfC. The underlying issue is whether a passage should be placed in Foie gras or in Foie gras controversy. It's morphed from a discussion of that point into an additional argument about how the conflict should proceed, and has now gotten to the name-calling stage.

I don't see any sign that the more vocal editors will calm down any time soon. As I mention above, the discussion involves two pages, and my concern is that in the crossfire, the information may be inadvertently removed from both and made difficult to restore as further edits are made to the pages.

I do have a position in the underlying issue and have stated it on that talk page, and am otherwise now staying out of the discussion, because I don't have anything further to add and don't want to fan the flames.

The two most vocal editors are DrChrissy (talk · contribs) and Jytdog (talk · contribs). I am placing a notification of this discussion on the Talk:Foie gras in addition to the individual talk pages of the above-named editors, due to the number of editors involved. TJRC (talk) 15:10, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

i haven't edited the page since March 19 (last dif), so there is nothing to do worry about me from me with regard to article content. i am frustrated with drchrissy's behavior, but i know how to use ANI and other boards and have not chosen to bring this anywhere, at this time. i do wish he would withdraw the flawed RfC that he pre-emptively launched (he had never done one before), and have asked him several times to do so, but he has so far not chosen to. I see no need for admin action at this time. Jytdog (talk) 15:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I find the launching of this ANI extremely curious to say the least. TJRC launched the ANI but was also the editor that removed the disputed content within 48 hours of my instigating an RfC [here] - way, way too early for any consensus to be reached.__DrChrissy (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I have not edited the article page since March 20, 2015 [here], so I am also not actively aditing the article page. Again, what is the motivation behind this ANI being launched?__DrChrissy (talk) 15:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy the motivation, i reckon, is to get you and i to start working together instead of fighting, which is disrupting the Talk page and making us both look like assholes. a good first step would be for you to stop publicizing the RfC and to withdraw it, so we can frame one together that we both find acceptable. Jytdog (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

You are free to describe yourself as you believe others are perceiving you, but please do not include me in that sort of description. I launched an RfC because it became apparent that you and I are unable to work together at the moment. I launched the RfC for outside comments, not for bonding. Instead, this RfC is being hijacked by inflammatory remarks, moving/changing other peoples' edits, removing the material under discussion, questioning the faith of edits and so on and so on. It is as if someone is deliberatly trying to sabbotage the RfC with unnecessary, unwanted and distracting edits.__DrChrissy (talk) 16:43, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

If conditions at this RfC are as disruptive as you describe, DrChrissy, perhaps admin intervention is called for. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:11, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

OK, so again instead of just making this simple, drchrissy, and withdrawing the RfC, you are making drama. (just like with the content you too-closely paraphrased despite 4 editors, including MoonRiddenGirl, telling you it was problematic as discussed here). In the case of this RfC:

• after you edit-warred the content back in while Alexbrn was temp blocked, i opened a new section on Talk, referring to the two prior sections where we had been discussing this
• the next day you opened a duplicate section, ignoring the one i had opened
• after some unproductive back and forth between us, on March 20 I said i would draft an RfC for us to discuss
• you acknowledged that here and here and here
• all the sudden on March 22 you launched a malformed, non-neutral RfC without discussion
• which i noted and asked you to withdraw it (and did again several times e.g here).
• instead you made it more malformed by adding your opinion on the matter to the question and blah blah blah just more bad behavior from there including even further publicizing it instead of withdrawing it.
• for the second time, instead of doing the simple, community-oriented thing of acknowledging a mistake, you have doubled down. please just do the simple thing and withdraw the RfC, so we can discuss a neutral, well-formed RfC that can guide discussion going forward. Jytdog (talk) 17:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussions and arguments on the talk page are layered, splintered, and in some cases, it seems, even recursive. It's not only difficult for an outside party to get involved, but also has not shown to produce even basic agreements on which to build upon (at least not recently). Stripping away the specifics and the behavioral issues, the crux of the matter seems to be to what extent information about the critical aspects of foie gras should be covered in the foie gras article, and to what extent they should be covered at foie gras controversy (and only summarized in the main article). DrChrissy has stated that he does not believe they should be separate articles, which to me explains some of his edits and arguments others have taken issue with.

It seems like the first and foremost question should be whether foie gras controversy is a viable and appropriate fork.

If the answer is yes, then next we'd have to determine what is considered "controversy" such that it should primarily be covered at the controversy article. And furthermore what topics relate to the controversy but should be weighted similarly (if covered differently) at the main article. ---- (The latter comes from DrChrissy's point -- and please correct me if I'm paraphrasing incorrectly -- that legislation concerning foie gras is central enough to the subject of foie gras that even if it's covered in the controversy article, it should not merely be summarized in the main article).

Once we've determined the domains of each page, the scope and venue for each of the arguments becomes a bit simpler. It's not a fix for everything, but it seems like a good place to start. As of now, the controversy article is all but neglected while these heated disputes take place in the main article, which doesn't make sense to me. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:30, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

that is well said. this is some of the stuff i was considering with regard to framing the RfC, before drchrissy launched his RfC. Jytdog (talk) 23:05, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Soon after you started to request I withdraw the RfC, I invited you to post an alternative RfC [[103]] so that we could discuss this. You declined to take up this opportunity of a collegiate approach to resolving this dispute.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:25, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

you don't run 2 RfCs at the same time on the same topic. i will ask you again, just like i did in reply to that: Please withdraw the RfC already. Why will you not just withdraw it? Please answer. Thanks. Jytdog (talk)

• Comment: There may have been dueling threads on the Talk page, but there is only one RfC there now, so no actionable items exist at this time that I can see. There's no prohibition in creating an RfC (a public discussion to engage more outside opinions than the current page-watchers), and that seems to be what was done. Some folks claim the RfC is not neutrally worded, but I don't see that it isn't as it merely asks a brief question and states how long the material in question was previously in the article. I think the presence of the RfC should give a forum to the discussions under way, and also invite outside input, which should calm the situation down. Again, at this very minute I don't see anything actionable. Softlavender (talk) 09:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

i agree there is nothing actionable. the RfC is not neutral and doesn't capture the debate, nor the larger issue of moving. Per Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Before_starting_the_process drchrissy should have discussed it before launching it. that is what i had said i was going to do; i had just not gotten to it yet when he jumped the gun and launched his, without discussion. I keep asking him to withdraw it ( and now, why he will not withdraw it) and he doesn't respond. what i want is to work together to frame a useful RfC that will provide helpful guidance going forward. the current one, does not do that. i don't think his launching of the RfC is actionable, nor is his refusal to withdraw it, nor is his refusal to say why he will not withdraw it. it is just ugly behavior. i am about ready to give up trying and just let the damn thing run. waste of a month. you know, i will give up trying to get him to withdraw it, or to say why he won't. so.. done with that. Jytdog (talk) 13:45, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Yesterday, I gave an explanation why I will not withdraw the RfC. This explanation is under a thread which Jytdog created themselves. It is not up to me to do thread-watching or research for another editor.__DrChrissy (talk) 14:08, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

i already asked you twice (here and here[ to provide a dif because i looked for something that looked like an answer and i couldn't find it anywhere. but don't bother now. i am done with this. it is a complete waste of time. (btw i suspect that drchrissy doesn't know how to provide a dif and is afraid to ask how. i run into this sometimes with academicish editors who just cannot say "i don't know" and cannot back down, ever) Jytdog (talk) 14:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC) (mistaken per below. striking Jytdog (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC))

well I am wrong about that and have struck. drchrissy does know how to make a diff! see here where he is building up a nice record on me. so, he has skill and time to put diffs there, but not here. OK. priorities are very clear. Jytdog (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog's message makes it clear that they are monitoring my sandbox where I am preparing an ANI. I appreciate this type of monitoring is not illegal, but to then make negative comments about me on here does rather smack of harrassment.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

i find drchrissy's behavior to be incomprehensible. he goes from being very on point and seemingly knowing what he is doing, to being completely lost on Wikipedia basics (from the launching of the RfC and subsequent refusal to discuss it per above, to stuff like this and [[104]] and especially here and other stuff, and i have no hope of working through controversial content to reach consensus with this editor - their behavior is just baffling to me. I am unwatching Foie gras and walking away.. Jytdog (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC) (striking. since I was drawn back against my wishes, I am sticking around. Will do my best to avoid dealing directly with drchrissy but will do if needed.) Jytdog (talk) 18:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:COMPETENCE editor

I strongly suspect some WP:COMPETENCE issues with Mavsfan123 (talk · contribs). I have warned the user at least twice that they are putting way too little content into their articles, but six days after their last warning, they created an article as lacking in content as their previous efforts. Other articles of theirs have been nominated for deletion for similar reasons, and they removed a deletion tag at least twice. The user has been here since last July, and yet they have made no attempt whatsoever to improve their article creation (compare this edit). They have also made no attempt to communicate on talk pages. I'm tired of cleaning up this editor's half-assed attempts, and I really want to get through to them, because it's obvious they're not listening. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 17:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing in particular wrong with this user's contributions, they're just short. A quick scan of their contribs shows that many of the short articles they've created have been kept and improved by other editors, and we wouldn't have these articles if not for this user having created them (even though they're stubs). Perfection is not required. Ivanvector (talk) 17:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

It's starting again (harrassment by banned IP)

• 104.173.225.10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

I hope I am not premature about this, but here goes. Starting in 2009, I began to be harassed by an IP editor (under my previous username, Yworo). This continued through 2012. To make a long story short, the user behind the IPs was community banned (see User:Skyerise/IP incident record which has links to the discussions and result). The IP's MO was to revert perfectly good edits I made, or to remove legitimate sourced content from articles repeatedly, falsely claiming that the source was not reliable. So, it's started again. Here are some diffs: [105], [106]. So yeah, it's only happened once so far, but I believe I recognize this user from long past experience. Personally, I am happy to give them another chance to continue editing as long as the leave me and the articles listed on my user page alone. In any case, the IP needs additional eyes on their activities. Skyerise (talk) 18:02, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Skyerise, It is premature, you've got the wrong person/IP. If you check the records this IP 104.173.225.10 got started on October 22, 2014 and has never made an edit connected to you (until yesterday). The edit you are disputing on Appalachia Rising was from a different editor -- so it's not connected to you at all.

In addition, I'll re-post what I wrote to you on your talk page today, I sincerely believe it because Wikipedia like our society at large should be free from any harrasement: "Skyerise, Sorry if you feel that way seriously, I'm only curious about the source of the edit from a different user on Rising Appalachia. It's not personal. I discovered this band from the edits over at Game of Thrones. It looks very interesting. I hope we can keep Wikipedia from anything that's not professional or civil-minded. It should be fun. In all sincerity, thank you for listening". 104.173.225.10 (talk) 18:29, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Whoever you are, you don't know Wikipedia sourcing requirements and you Wikilawyer. And you've followed me from one article to another simply to revert my edits. Please read WP:BLOG - only personal self-published blogs are a no-no. A multi-contributor news source is fine. So I ask you to just stay away from me and the articles I am currently working on: I've been here for ten years and I know what I'm doing. It's clear you are retaliating for my reporting you for edit-warring on an article which I was not editing myself. Just leave me alone. Got it? Skyerise (talk) 18:34, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

First I will answer your accusation(s). I edited something on Appalachia Rising from a different user today at the beginning of this discussion. How is that connected to you? The point of Wikipedia is discovery. Discovery of music, art, and culture etc. There is nothing out of the ordinary about discovering a new artist through whatever means on the site. For someone who has contributed so much to Wikipedia please, why not let others do the same? Thank you. 104.173.225.10 (talk) 18:48, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• Skyerise: I think you may be right that this is premature, but certainly worth pointing out. Other than the WP:ANEW posting and your talk exchanges, I don't see much evidence that this IP is hounding you. It seems quite possible you've simply crossed paths with a new-ish user who doesn't understand the WP:RS guideline nor the WP:EDITWAR policy.
• However, 104.173.225.10, having been brought to an enforcement noticeboard by a user and then showing up in an article that that user edits to revert their contributions smells bad, if you catch my meaning. Please make sure you understand our harassment policy (especially what we call wikihounding) which explicitly forbids following a user from topic to topic just to interject in their discussions and cause annoyance. Skyerise has requested that you leave her alone; you are very strongly advised to respect that. Ivanvector (talk) 19:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Ivanvector, I appreciate your expertise in this matter. Could you do me a favor and officially request that Skyerise do the same? Specifically, on the Game of Thrones page. I want to thank you all for keeping the site civil and a place where we can all reach for consensus.104.173.225.10 (talk) 19:27, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'd like to jump in to give a friendly reminder to Skyerise about WP:CIVILITY. Right now you seem paranoid and are assuming an inordinate amount of bad faith. --DawnDusk (talk) 03:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Have you ever been stalked for three years because that's how long it takes to get anyone here to take it seriously? I was nearly driven off Wikipedia and I'd rather jump the gun that ever submit to that level of harassment again. Skyerise (talk) 07:26, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Point taken. I believe you - your reaction certainly is justified. --DawnDusk (talk) 07:30, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Thank you. Skyerise (talk) 07:36, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @DawnDusk: Please stop sprinkling CIVIL links around. Either produce some text that breaches CIVIL or withdraw per WP:ASPERSIONS. Johnuniq (talk) 08:18, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
    • While I don't mind you attempting to nitpick me, I already did withdraw that (if you read the conversation), and this was the text to which I was referring. DawnDusk (talk) 08:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
• Guys, we're making a chain of meta-civility notices here. May I suggest we close this? Ivanvector (talk) 17:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Mass genre changes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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@Masterclopedia2015: has been changing music genres, without any references, or even edit summaries, to their liking [107], [108] and [109] Wednesday and again today, [110] this is causing a lot of un-necessary work for editors who monitor music articles. Maybe a short block will get their attention. Mlpearc (open channel) 00:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The three examples cited here strike me as examples of making shit up... This is an editor that needs to be watched closely. Calling Metallica "groove metal" and coining the subgenre "progressive pop punk" (sic.) from whole cloth are very concerning. Carrite (talk) 11:16, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The editor is clearly willing to engaged in an edit war on a number of articles:

• Angels & Airwaves[111][112][113]
• Box Car Racer (album):[114][115]
• Hell Awaits:[116][117]
• Reign in Blood:[118][119]

Because of this and the unwillingness to discuss the widespread genre changes, I suggest that Masterclopedia2015 (talk · contribs) be blocked for 72 hours with progressively lengthier blocks if the disruptive behavior continues. —Farix (t | c) 12:55, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree that a short block is necessary to stop the disruption and get the user to communicate. - MrX 13:22, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know how helpful it will be, but I left a message explaining the situation to him. Maybe wait to see what happens now. If he keeps messing with genres, I think a block would be warranted. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked Masterclopedia2015 for 72 hours for disruptive editing. He has been pinged and informed about this discussion, ignored it and continued to edit without involving himself in the sort of discussions and collegial editing we expect for all of us, really. Nick (talk) 16:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jytdog: Protracted uncivility and harrassment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I wish to raise an ANI about Jytdog. This is in regard to their protracted uncivility towards me and their harassment of me.

After several postings which I considered to be uncivil, I reminded Jytdog on 16th March here[125] to be civil in discussions. However, this uncivility has continued. I further reminded Jytdog on March 23rd here[126] and March 24th here[127] that I was finding their behaviour unacceptable, but this has persisted.

Jytdog is a well established editor. Given their considerable experience on here, they should not need to be reminded about being civil and not harrassing other editors. Neither should they be using a highly suspect tactic of making fleeting accusations, inflammatory remarks or uncivility in postings so that editors currently involved in the discussion briefly see it, and then quickly removing the edit before others comment so that it does not remain on the page or is later struck out here[128] and here[129] compare with [130] These are only 2 examples of this behaviour. The harm to the project and the taunting of me has been done before the striking out.

Wikihounding:

• Jytdog is following me so that negative comments about me can be left on pages to which I am contributing or using. I asked a question at the WP:Teahouse here[131] about an editor's talk page that was edited by Jytdog but which did not attribute the edit to Jytdog. In my initial posting, I was careful not to name editors or indicate the location of the problem. Within 50 mins of my posting the question, Jytdog had posted an edit on the thread I initiated[132]. The only way Jytdog could have known about my posting this question was if they were monitoring my postings. Jytdog soon after posted that I was "inexperienced"[133] in an attempt to belittle me.

Prophanities:

• Jytdog left prophanities on my Talk page here[134] to belittle my editing.
• Jytdog used prophanities on other pages in messages directed at me, e.g. "I made a motherfucking mistake by editing a comment when I thought no one had replied yet - when you pointed out that you had replied I went back and struck it properly and acknowledged my mistake. That is not "uncivil", it is called being a fucking human being who can make mistakes and is capable of fucking admitting them and even fucking fixing them"[135]
• Jytdog used further prophanaties in messages directed at me here.[136]

Personal attacks:

• Jytdog was aware of my being an academic here[137]. They subsequently made a personal attack (and veiled attack on my career competence which I find extremely unpleasant and totally unacceptable) by writing "i run into this sometimes with academicish editors who just cannot say "i don't know" and cannot back down, ever" here[138]
• Jytdog described my edit as "slimey varmint behavior".[139]

Belittling a fellow editor:

• Jytdog described me as "inexperienced" here[140]
• Jytdog stated that my RfC was "wasting time" here.[141]
• Jytdog made a comment disrespecting my editing abilities here[142]
• Jytdog made comments that suggested/stated I have "fucked up",[143] "screw[ed] it up,[144] and an RfC I initiated was described as "...a flawed fucked up waste of time...".[145]
• Jytdog made a comment that I should "get around more"[146], clearly in a way to belittle me

Inappropriate use of warning templates:

• Jytdog left a warning template on my Talk page [147] that was not warranted and unjustified even after a request.

Admission of yelling at me

• Jytdog admitted telling at me here.[148]
• Jytdog admitted yelling at me here.[149]

Other editor's independent and unrequested comments support my concerns: Independent editors have noted Jytdog's uncivil attitude toward me.

• An independent editor left a message on Jytdog's Talk page stating Jytdog should "watch your tone" in messages directed at me.[150]] Jytdog apologised at their own Talk page but not at the original posting or at my Talk page.
• An independent editor left a message on my Talk page stating that postings by Jytdog were "...intended to inflame".[151]

It seems clear to me that Jytdog has breached the principles of civility and non-harassment of other editors repeatedly, despite being warned. Some of these have been extremely upestting to myself and have caused me to think about stopping working on the project. I truly believe this editor needs to learn that there are consequences to this extremely uncivil behaviour.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:28, 28 March 2015 (UTC) __DrChrissy (talk) 00:36, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I acknowledge that I got angry with drchrissy and that i expressed that anger. that was not good of me. i am not sorry for cursing; that is not a problem in WP. but some of my remarks were uncivil, and for that i do apologize, and i will be use more restraint going forward. I am sorry for that, drchrissy. None of what you write is actionable and much of it is nonsense (which should make it clear why i described you inexperienced). But i am sorry for being uncivil. Jytdog (talk) 00:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

You don't seem to be sorry, because you've just responded in the same way to me. I don't know why you think cursing isn't a problem on WP. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 00:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

and you know what slimvirgin, i never understand why people think it is such a great "gotcha" to link to a comment that someone overwrote. i never do that. here is where that comment ended up. of course i wrote what you linked to and of course i regret what i wrote originally; that's why i changed it. (which per TPG I can do, before someone else responds. after that i have to redact) i don't like what i originally wrote there. i have always wondered if there is some specific policy or guideline that calls linking to an overwritten comment "slimey behavior." Jytdog (talk) 01:17, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

And has also written about my notice that "..much of it is nonsense"! It never stops!... __DrChrissy (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I do regret losing my temper with drchrissy. that is on me. and i do apoligize for that. I do get it that cursing is ~probably~ uncivil. cursing at someone (like, "Jytdog you are a stupid fucking asshole") would be uncivil and a personal attack to boot. but saying "that is fucking wrong" is not cursing at somebody. Jytdog (talk) 00:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

oh drchirssy much of what you object to (like the edit war notice) was totally appropriate on my part. you didn't understand then and you still don't understand. i tried in the past to explain to you some of these sorts of things Jytdog (talk) 00:59, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The beam sticking out of your eye is rather large. AlbinoFerret 03:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The bottom line is that if an editor talks like a low-life, they shouldn't be surprised if they get treated like one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:24, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Two wrongs never make a right, civility is required, even if there is a perceived problem. Article talk pages and user pages are also the last place that it should be allowed. If there is a problem, bring it to one of the noticeboards. As experienced as Jytdog is, and his activity here pointing out issues, he should have known that. In his own words "it is a behavior thing. it doesn't matter why. you have done what you have done". AlbinoFerret 14:56, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Taken as a whole, Jytdog's behavior towards DrChrissy does appear to constitute a systematic pattern of harassment and incivility. Many of the worst comments have been struck by Jytdog, but there appears to be a pattern emerging in which Jytdog makes uncivil or unfounded remarks about an editor and then strikes them. Repeatedly making comments that have to be struck is itself a pattern of incivility. The edit warning also appears to be harassment. Jytdog attempted to justify the warning with this reply but notice that the third diff is not a revert. @Jytdog, I suggest dropping the stick rather than engaging in less than WP:CIVIL behavior and giving the appearance of being a disruptive user. --I am One of Many (talk) 17:01, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I disagree, and quite strongly. The edit war warning arose after drchrissy tried 3 times to change a comment on a talk page that I had responded to, without redacting (showing the change):

• here with inaccurate edit note: " I have simply added my vote in bold to help editors who might wish to collate information quickly. The content in the message has not been changed."
• i reverted with edit note: "yes this changes the context very much, and makes my remark nonsense. strike if you with to redact it"
• he restored his change
• at 22:55, 25 March 2015 i reverted again, explaining again "this violates TPG, you must WP:REDACT, not simply edit, comments others have responded to"
• at 23:02, 25 March 2015 i gave edit war notice on his Talk page (which I often give in this kind of situation, at this point. it is fine under policy to do so - the point of the notice is to prevent 3RR and spur discussion; you get an edit war noticeboard notice after you break 3RR and are actually brought to the edit warring notice board)
• at 23:04, 25 March 2015 drchrissy stopped edit warring and intead commented on the Talk page: "@Jytdog. How do I redact information that is no longer there - you have already deleted it?" which is just baffling.
• later drchrissy asks on his talk page, "Why have you put this notice on my Talk page: Where am I supposed to be edit-warring?"

so...I give an edit warring notice and he stops edit warring, writes a bizzare comment, and then later on his Talk page asks why the edit war notice. the whole things shows either WP:CIR or just deliberately off-throwing behavior. I can't decide which but in either case, frustrating. I admit that I let myself express my frustration over this baffling behavior, which arises in the midst of a content dispute. Yes, I own that and have apologized for it. But my actions have been solid. There is no harassment. I have tried to talk through things with him, and almost every conversation goes off into bizarro world, exactly like that interaction did. I can give plenty more examples. Again, I acknowledge that I let myself express my frustration, which I should have not have done. That is as far as this goes. Jytdog (talk) 17:13, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support Warning - Jytdog for incivility. Profanity-laden personal attacks like these 1, 2, 3 have no place in wikipedia. These are from the past 2 months and are only the worst examples. Removing or striking such comments, as Jytdog has done, does not unsay them. An experienced editor should not be making comments like this in the first place, and when such comments are made and deleted repeatedly it raises questions of potential baiting other editors and gaming the system.Dialectric (talk) 17:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll accept a warning; I acknowledge that i allowed my frustration to get to me. I have absolutely not gamed anything.

• the first dif is not fair, as I overwrote that (final comment was here and then i deleted it altogether
• the second diff is not fair, as i overwrote that -the final comment was here and i apologized to that user here, which was accepted.
• third dif, same thing. I overwrote is so it ended up here and then deleted it altogether. it is not reasonable to link to earlier versions of comments. it has been a frustrating time for me, and i have been intemperate, but have fixed thing as I have gone. But i do accept a warning. Jytdog (talk) 17:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• • Support warning, and wash out his mouth, too. "i am not sorry for cursing; that is not a problem in WP." That is a ridiculous statement by Jytdog. Of course it is a problem. If this is the sum of the editor's opinion about WP:Civility, the that editor should not be editing here. Why does he think that folks don't stick around? We don't need him unless he can maintain civil discourse. Just my opinion, but I've BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 17:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment As the initiator of this ANI, I'm not entirely sure I am allowed to comment on punitive action. If I am not, I apologise. As the recipient of the protracted mis-behaviour of Jytdog this has reduced my Wiki-experience to being one of dreading opening up the site, and extreme stress and frustration whilst trying to get on with constructive editing. I have just looked at the examples offered by Dialectric above - it appears I got off lightly. Surely any punitive action should be more than a warning. Other editors will see this ANI and if they see that such uncivility results in just a few harsh words, I am sure they will not be impressed. Jytdog indicated here [[152]] that they believed their mis-behaviour was not actionable. This indicates that with their considerable experience of such behaviour they have carefully considered their actions and decided to stick two fingers up to the admins considering this (I hope this translates to other languages...it essentially means "****-off you lot"__DrChrissy (talk) 17:46, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

That is not what i said at all, and your response again demonstrates WP:CIR. I am sorry that I upset you drchrissy but you don't understand what you are doing here. Jytdog (talk) 18:18, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I am hearing the community feedback on cursing. I'll cut that out. (it's not something I ~generally~ do, and of course i recognize that it isn't civil with a small c) Jytdog (talk) 18:23, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Reply You were warned by me here[153] and here[154] that your use of prophanity was objectionable - but you continued. I have not searched for others warning you of this (life is too short), but I would be amazed if similar warnings did not exist.__DrChrissy (talk) 18:57, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
• Question to admins Jytdog has now questioned my competence suggesting WP:CIR twice, here[155] and here[156]. This is further evidence of the harassment I am receiving from this editor. Do I edit my original ANI to include these, or do I (regretably) start a new ANI?__DrChrissy (talk) 19:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Hi DrChrissy, it's best just to leave the diffs here. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 20:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support short block - I would normally support the warning, but Jytdog frequently argues WP:BLOCKDETERRENT with respect to others, which suggests a block might deter this sort of thing from recurring. The issue is beyond profanity. Jytdog badgered DrChrissy over minor seeming issues. DrChrissy exhibited remarkable civility and ability to remain focused on content while a battleground environment was created. Less level headed editors would have probably snapped, or else just walked away from the article in frustration.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 20:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I support BLOCKDETERRENT when the subject is WP:IDHT. I am hearing the valid criticism here. With regard to most of what drchrissy links above, most of it is due to his lack of understanding of how WP works. Really, look at them. Jytdog (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• My Own 2 Cents - I am not commenting on this incident specifically, but have had problems with Jytdog in the past. I have to admit, I find it a bit outrageous that he recently tried to quote/wikilawyer another editor using a conflict of interest policy he wrote himself. He becomes very aggressive when people question whether he has a conflict of interest (appropriately or otherwise). However, he recently tried to inappropriately suggest there was a conflict on interest in an article I was working on when it was entirely baseless, which he later admitted. It appears to me he has formed some kind of an alliance with Formerly98, who has been more problematic, as they have an unusually large amount of posts on overlapping articles and disputes. I am not familiar with how to handle conflict of interest editors and what kind of evidence is required to prove such, but many editors have raised issues with him and Formerly98 recently which doesn't seem to be coincidental. I am glad an administrator has taken notice of this and will hopefully be able to resolve whatever has been going on. Doors22 (talk) 20:31, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
• furthermore There is also an alliance with Alexbrn - diffs can be provided if required.__DrChrissy (talk) 20:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

all my "fans" are coming out to play. lovely. Doors22, your description of the COI issue you and I discussed is not accurate. That had to do with Draft:Post-Finasteride_Syndrome_Foundation, a cause for which Doors22 advocates here. The one reliable source about that foundation says: ""The men have formed a foundation and have commenced legal action." I pointed out that if the article would be created, we might run into trouble with COI per Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Legal and Doors22 freaked out over that. And still is. Jytdog (talk) 21:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

You are deflecting from the issue of the thread, which is your mis-behaviour. Perhaps you should focus and defend your personal attacks on me.__DrChrissy (talk) 21:16, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Not at all, I responded directly to a new complaint about my behavior. It was on-point. This is one of the things about ANI. People jump in and bring all kinds of peripheral issues. Jytdog (talk) 21:46, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Your "defense" is taken out of context and also off-topic. Other users can visit Draft:Post-Finasteride_Syndrome_Foundation if they would like to see the whole context for your nonconstructive exchange. I'm not really sure a short-term block would be productive, especially since Jytdog himself is asking for such a response. Both he and Formerly98 have used this tactic to evade escalation in the past. A 48-block is really a slap on the wrist, especially since he is an experienced editor. Doors22 (talk) 22:20, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Frankly, this is much bigger than cussing. This editor behaves like a dictator and a tyrant, stirs up drama seemingly everywhere he goes, has an ownership attitude with regard to any article he works on as well as the encyclopedia in general, and this noticeboard in particular. He clearly works in a gang, which includes Alexbrn as DrChrissy noted, and Formerly98 as Doors22 pointed out, yet screams "Canvassing" when one who has questioned his edits seeks guidance from another. On GMO pages, one finds themselves taking on Jytdog and KingofAces as if they are the same person. He is perhaps the most disruptive editor I have come across on WP, and if you don't have a clear picture of that from this noticeboard, take a gander at how he treats an RfC that he wasn't allowed to control. Further, I would highly recommend reviewing what Atsme said in yet another Jytdog ANI. I hope it isn't true that WP is run mainly by 22 year old gamer dudes, but it seems like it would help to explain why no one has stood up to Jytdog and put an end to his bullying on behalf of the volunteers who have yet to be turned away. He called two editors "crazy" at the COIN talk page today, so I assume it's OK for me to be very honest - Jytdog seems... imbalanced at best, and IMO needs a long break from his volunteer work here. It is not making him happy, which is affecting good, hard-working editors. Please do something. petrarchan47tc 22:18, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support Jytdog is an experienced editor, seems very intelligent, and when I look at his edits I think he can be an asset to the project overall, but I ran into his ownership behavior at GMO where he would play what seemed to be a game of revert/tell me to discuss my edit on talk when I already did and he didn't/then dismiss valid concerns on talk, and deviate into edit warring. Recently, I noticed he accused another user of canvassing all because he posted a required notification on my talk page. This kind of battleground behavior really needs to be dealt with in some way. And I see that I'm not the only one with an experience like this. If our passion for a subject ever causes us to lose sight of the rules, out of preservation for the project-at-large, something has to be done. I do think this editor is smart and enthusiastic but needs to be accountable for his behavior, as we all should. LesVegas (talk) 23:36, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. User:DrChrissy wrote "There is also an alliance with Alexbrn - diffs can be provided if required."[157] The offensive comment is counterproductive to contributing to an encyclopedia. QuackGuru (talk) 23:50, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Reply to QuackGuru Why would this be considered offensive?__DrChrissy (talk) 00:00, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Without supporting diffs you accused Alexbrn of having an alliance.[158] QuackGuru (talk) 00:03, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh good, the quackery shills are looking to chase off yet another intelligent and hard-working proponent of the reality-based view. Guy (Help!) 00:08, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment It looks like a number of editors who have had content conflicts with Jytdog have come out of the woodwork to try to run them off. Jytdog should tone it down with the cussing, but is by and large a policy and guideline based editor who is one of the few to tackle the POV pushing that occurs on controversial articles, and in general should be commended for dealing with the issues that arise from working these areas. Trout for Jytdog for the unnecessary cussing, and trout for the original poster for the overboard accusation of "wikihounding" based on one edit. Yobol (talk) 00:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
• Reply to QuackGuru This is one example here[159] which provides yet further evidence of Jytdog's harassment of me that I did not include previously - would you like me to provide more evidence of the affiliation with Alexbrn because it is only likely to reveal more of Jytdog's harrassment of me.? It is not "offensive" to make such postings...I indicated I was willing to post examples. Please return to the focus of this discussion which is the mis-behaviour of Jytdog. (talk) 00:13, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

@Yobol Are you really arguing that because so many editors are agreeing about the disruptive and uncivil behaviour of another editor, there must be a conspiracy? Please read through my list of concerns that for this ADI rather than just focussing on one, and tell me that the editor's behaviour is acceptable.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:27, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I am saying that a number of editors who are commenting here and seeking sanctions against Jytdog are those who have been in editorial conflict with him in the past; I see no "conspiracy" in it, other than an attempt to get a sanction against an editor they have been in a content dispute in the past. When the first item in the list is so flimsy, I usually do not check the other ones. From what you posted, I can see that they have been cussing (and noted in my first response they should cut it out), and the other issues I suspect they are harsh but I don't think get near my reading of WP:NPA. Jytdog should tone it down, but I don't see any need for administrative sanctions. Yobol (talk) 00:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

OK, so what you are saying is that if you think the first point I raise is "flimsy, I usually do not check the other ones". I feel this makes you totally uninformed to make any cogent argument on this ADI. Making your remark without fully reading the content I have prepared is unprofessional and potentially disruptive. I suggest to readers of this discussion that your remark should be ignored. I suggest you redact it.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure how your opinion carries any value if you admit you didn't review the original issues. An administrator, SlimVirgin, has also expressed concerns and I'm curious to hear how she advises proceeding. Doors22 (talk) 01:02, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

SV is WP:INVOLVED in this. Jytdog (talk) 01:53, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Just because SV has interacted with you in this past does not mean she is involved in this general dispute. In any case, she will hopefully have a good suggestion on how to handle the situation whether she does it herself or recommends a proper venue. Doors22 (talk) 02:00, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

And yet more piling on. I already said I read through your concerns, and don't see a lot of issues that needs administrative action besides a trout. I'm sure you want everyone to ignore any information that doesn't lead to some sanction against Jytdog; that is the ANI way, and the reason why I tend to avoid places like this. Piling on by content dispute opponents and trumped up charges are par for the course here. Saying my contributions here are "potentially disruptive" pretty much says it all. Yobol (talk) 02:07, 29 March 2015 (UTC).

A "trout" for the continued harassment, insults, inflammatory, derogatory and personal insults? Imagine if I discussed this outside of Wikipedia. "This bloke stated or implied publicly that I was not an academic, I was incompetent, he agreed with an alliance that I was committing plagiarism, he made continual derogatory remarks...they want to send a picture of a trout to him". This would make Wikipedia a laughing stock. The continued outrageous behaviour of this editor towards me and so many other editors needs substantial punitive action...not a cartoon of a fish.__DrChrissy (talk) 02:21, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.