Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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User:عمرو بن كلثوم and Syrian Kurdistan

I believe User:عمرو بن كلثوم is editing tendentiously. The Talk page of the article Syrian Kurdistan is almost exclusively a complaints page from a wide variety of editors, over the past many months, about the behaviour of this user, and evident from the discussion is an obvious POV based on denialism, to whit: the user would rather the term Syrian Kurdistan did not exist, and is convinced (against all and repeatedly offered evidence) that the phrase is a neologism produced by expansionist Kurdish nationalists this century. The user would have the world believe there was never any such thing as a Syrian part of Kurdistan (i.e. within the 20th- and 21st-century Syrian Arab Republic); and the whole thing is some sort of conspiracy cooked up since the Syrian Civil War. The user has here embarked on an attempt to gain support for their POV here: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#PhD_candidate_as_a_reliable_source_for_a_denial_of_Syrian_Kurdistan_against_the_views_of_multiple_professors_stating_otherwise? and when another user sought assistance here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_a_book_by_the_PhD_candidate_Mustafa_Hamza_a_reliable_source_for_a_denial_of_a_Syrian_Kurdistan? and will not take no for an answer. I suspect administrator action of some kind is needful. GPinkerton (talk) 01:54, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

This complaint is really interesting. At the RSN, user Sixula suggested that it was not the right place for this debate so I quit following that page, but a few minutes ago I was notified of this complaint here. I revisited the NOPV noticeboard to find that user Pinkerton jumped out of nowhere and made conclusions for everybody, and then ran to report me here and accusing me of refusing to compromise. Obviously, they did not bother to visit the Syrian Kurdistan Talk page to see what's going on. There has been a discussion going on for days, we have provided enough evidence, including the all-important Treaty of Sevres map (for non-experts, that post-WWI treaty in 1920 shaped all Kurdish statehood claims) and a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan". We also provided sources showing the initial use of this term. For example, this report by the highly-regarded International Crisis Group reads:

The PYD assumed de facto governing authority, running a transitional administration in what it, and Kurds in general, call Rojava (Western Kurdistan), including three noncontiguous enclaves: Afrin, Kobani (Ayn al-Arab) and Cezire (al-Jazeera region in Hassakah province).

This issue is really too long to explain here, so I would rather have people visit the Talk page mentioned above. In brief, two or three users are trying to show this as an entity that has long existed and three other users (at least) do not agree with that, and argue that this term was produced by Kurdish nationalists during the Syrian Civil War. We are not arguing about the presence of a Kurdistan or Kurds in Syria. Finally, this is a content dispute, and I have not broken any rules. Actually, admin intervention in that page would really be welcome. May be at least provide protection for now. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 02:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Above, the user has illustrated succinctly the problem with their WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:IDHT attitude and refusal to accept reality. Below, one can see a long list of sources that very much do talk about Syrian Kurdistan, explicitly, and by name. As a synonym for Western Kurdistan it can be found in geographical research before the First World War. The claim of the all-importance of the Treaty of Sevres is a lie ignorant of history and wilfully oblivious to the sources editors may peruse below. This user's insistence on claiming that a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan" is exactly the kind of false narrative they have been bludgeoning people with for months (years?). Any look at any of the works will show that the editor's POV is divorced from the real world, and is apparently vocally, partisan as regards the al-Assad regime and its opponents. Some sort of admonition is surely required.

• In the Dispersion. World Zionist Organization, Organization Department, Research Section. 1962. This book tells the tale od the Kurdish Jews who lived in the one hundred and nintey towns in what is now Iraqi, Persian, Turkish and Syrian Kurdistan
• Ghassemlou, Abdul Rahman (1965). Kurdistan and the Kurds. Publishing House of the Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences. (i.e. the present-day Turkish, Iraqi and Syria Kurdistan)
• Chaliand, Gérard, ed. (1993) [1978]. Les Kurdes et le Kurdistan [A People Without a Country: The Kurds and Kurdistan]. Translated by Pallis, Michael. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-194-5. Are these three regions - Kurd-Dagh, Ain-Arab, and Northern Jezireh - part of Kurdistan? Do they form a Syrian Kurdistan, or are they merely region of Syria which happen to be populated with Kurds? ... Syrian Kurdistan has thus become a broken up territory and we would do better to talk about the Kurdish regions of Syria. What matters is that these people are being denied their legitimate right to have their own national and cultural identity.
• Gotlieb, Yosef (1982). Self-determination in the Middle East. Praeger. ISBN 978-0-03-062408-7. While the Kurds in Turkish, Soviet, Syrian, and Persian Kurdistan were held in place with and iron fist, the Iraqi Kurds fought virtually alone throughout the 1960s.
• Bruinessen, Martin Van (1992). Agha, Shaikh, and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-018-4. The plains of Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan are the granaries of Iraq and Syria, respectively.
• Izady, Mehrdad R. (1992). The Kurds: A Concise Handbook. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-0-8448-1727-9. All of Syrian Kurdistan, half of central Kurdistan in Iraq, and about 15% of western Kurdistan is located in this warm zone. It contains the cities of Diyarbakir, Siirt, Mardin, Urfa, Qamishli, Afrin, Sanjar, Sulaymania, Arbil, Qasri Shirin, Ilam, Gelan, and Pahla.
• Kreyenbroek, Philip G.; Allison, Christine (1996). Kurdish Culture and Identity. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-329-1.
• Bruinessen, Martin van (1978). Agha, Shaikh and State: On the Social and Political Organization of Kurdistan. University of Utrecht. I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan. ... Most sources agree that there are approximately half a million Kurds in Syria.
• Mirawdeli, Kamal M. (1993). Kurdistan: Toward a Cultural-historical Definition. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies. Turkish Kurdistan, an Iraqi Kurdistan, an Iranian Kurdistan, and a Syrian Kurdistan
• Bulloch, John; Morris, Harvey (1992). No Friends But the Mountains: The Tragic History of the Kurds. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-508075-9. The British and the French made it clear from the outset that they were unwilling to surrencder those parts of Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan which fell under their control, and that an independent Kurdistan, if such an entity were to be created, would have to be in what was still Turkish territory.
• Jaff, Akram (1993). Economic Development in Kurdistan. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies.
• Gotlieb, Yosef (1995). Development, Environment, and Global Dysfunction: Toward Sustainable Recovery. Delray Beach, FL: St Lucie Press. ISBN 978-1-57444-012-6. The situation in Turkish Kurdistan is consistent with that of Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan.
• Meho, Lokman I., ed. (1997). The Kurds and Kurdistan: A Selective and Annotated Bibliography. Westport, CN and London: Greewood Press. ISBN 978-0-313-30397-5. The information the author gets concerning Syrian Kurdistan is abased on results from field research carried out in 1988 and 1990.
• Berberoglu, Berch (1999). Turmoil in the Middle East: Imperialism, War, and Political Instability. SUNY Press. ISBN 978-0-7914-4412-2. Then, in the 1920s, the Bedirkhan brothers introduced the Latin alphabet, which became standard in Turkish and Syrian Kurdistan.

GPinkerton (talk) 02:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

We are debating a specific term. Can you provide the quotes showing that, instead of showing "Kurdistan" or Kurds in Syria, etc.? One more thing, we are about to reach consensus on the Syrian Kurdistan page. This shows that your claim of me refusing to compromise is false. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Check out this discussion out of many going on on that Talk page. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

No, look at the sources yourself. Yours is the only voice on your side of this "debate". GPinkerton (talk) 03:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Ha ha ha. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 08:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Comment Actually me and other users also participated in the debate taking the same position as Amr. No on need to look at the sources themselves as the one who claims need to prove, so quotes and pages numbers should be presented. Finally, you can have tens of sources to support you but there are tens of them that support the other side and NPOV requires you not to ignore that. This complain is uncalled for and an attempt to force a measure from above to give one side of a long debate what they want! The users who are against Amr acts exactly like him, so if he is wrong, so are they. I am calling for an rfc to solve this.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 03:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Attar-Aram syria: All of what you're saying is not at all relevant. This is only about Amr's repeated attempt to prove the term "Syrian Kurdistan" does not exist or is a recent coinage, whereas in the real world it is a coinage many, many decades old. This is tendentiousness. GPinkerton (talk) 05:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Im telling you Im an active part of the debate and you are deciding for me that I am not? Seriously? You are now part of this content dispute, so go to the article's talk page.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 05:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

CommentThis has nothing to do with Amr. This is all Konli17's fault. That page has been quiet for months and then all of a sudden he comes back after a long break from editing and starts his POV pushing again. He changes Southern and eastern Turkey into Turkish Kurdistan, tries renaming every city in Northeastern Syria to its Kurdish name, constantly starts edit wars with other users, and manipulates sources to get them what they want him to say. Konli17 is the user that should be blocked because he’s not WP:HTBAE and is just here to push his agenda. You should really see his other edits before jumping to conclusions that it’s Amr's fault. Thepharoah17 (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Thepharoah17: if you want to make a report about an unrelated matter you need to do it elsewhere. GPinkerton (talk) 05:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

OK, per your request GPinkerton, I'll call on other people to weigh in on this. @Supreme Deliciousness:@HistoryofIran:@Al Ameer son:. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Thepharoah17, The page was stable until Konli17 returned and pushed his pov points. Shadow4dark (talk) 06:44, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

See an example here (out of tens or hundreds) for yourselves how user konli17 changes the meanings by simple tweaking and removal of sensitive words to fake/change content and removing sensitive words (such as 'at most', 'no more than') or changing 'encourage' to 'allow', 'many' to 'some', etc. Look at the long list of reverts and edit-warring in their edit history. Actually, they were blocked back in June for edit-warring. That is the user who needs to be disciplined here. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

This argumentation is obfuscation and unconvincing whataboutery. GPinkerton (talk) 05:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Since you have obviously decided to take sides in the dispute at hand, bring on your evidence in the form of quotes from the links above you copied from user paradise chronicle! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@عمرو بن كلثوم: It's more than obvious you are unwilling to read. None of these sources were copy pasted from anywhere. I just did the most basic Goggle Books search, and provided you with hyperlinks so you can easily verify that each one discusses "Syrian Kurdistan". How many times? The quote is the same in every book listed: "Syrian Kurdistan"! GPinkerton (talk) 05:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

My friend, you are the one making claims here. Bring me your evidence (e.g. quotes). It's not my role to prove your point, it's yours. Syrian + Kurdistan does not equal "Syrian Kurdistan". Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

One more thing, it seems you are the one refusing to read since you failed to see in the Talk page in question how many editors were on each side. Regardless of the opinions presented here, you claimed that I am the ONLY one representing this side of the story. Now you are attacking the other editor sharing my opinion here. You are trying hard to push your POV, same as you did as the NPOV noticeboard, ironic. Obviously, you are not qualified to judge or point at others. And let's keep this professional without personal attacks like you did above accusing me of supporting Assad regime (with no evidence whatsoever)! And by the way, on this note the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (who declared Syrian Kurdistan) are allies of the Assad regime and there is plenty of evidence that I will keep for another time. So, better do your homework before throwing accusation around. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Rank hypocrisy. I've expanded with quotes since you're too unwilling to lift a finger to pull the wool from your own eyes and read a book. GPinkerton (talk) 07:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Comment: There is nothing wrong with Amr ibn Kulthoums edits. "Syrian Kurdistan" is a lie and a fraud, there are editor at that page that are pushing kurdish nationalist propaganda lies and attempting to rewrite history. We should thank Amr ibn Kulthoum for standing up to the truth. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

More denialism. Just look at the sources! "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", all the way down! Your claim it is a lie and fruad is absurd. GPinkerton (talk) 07:29, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't know who is in denial here despite all the evidence. For the third time, I am asking you to provide actual quotes (SENTENCES) saying "Syrian Kurdistan" from before 2011. Good luck with that! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Can you read? Or do you only spew? Scroll up. Read. اقرأ GPinkerton (talk) 08:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Are you going to stop the personal attacks? What does that prove? You are always going to find some random authors (look at the author names) claiming things and naming things as they please. One of them is saying "I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan". The question is, is any of that reputable? Do you have an international map showing this, or do you have a respected paper/media outlet, international organization showing this from before 2011? Since you pick up languages so quickly, I'll challenge your French, why don't you read this article to update your history? The bottom line you are accusing me of pushing my POV but you are doing a lot worse. Cheers my friend. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 08:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh yeah sure. Read an article that has little to do with the topic at hand and that will convince me that all these respected academic sources are somehow worthless. What planet is this editor living on? On earth, Syrian Kurdistan is a thing. The idea the idea it didn't exist before 2011 is as laughable as the editor's understanding of epistemology. GPinkerton (talk) 08:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

WP believes in sourced content and two sides to the story. More personal attacks. I don't think I need to respond to that. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 09:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Ah yes the two sides of the story: "Syrian Kurdistan has never been uttered before 2011" (fairyland, POV) vs "Evidence for the existence of the term long before عمرو بن كلثوم would evidently prefer." (Earth, NPOV). Somehow I think including the highly idiosyncratic and patently wrong POV you are pushing without a shred of evidence should be given short shrift in consideration of WP:DUE. How much credence can we give these uncited illusions? GPinkerton (talk) 09:23, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• See also this User_talk:Thepharoah17#تحياتي Canvassing. GPinkerton (talk) 08:52, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

After your old argument of my one-person opinion failed, you are using a new tactic. How is this canvassing? Look at the user contributions! This user is very moderate, and not involved in any edit-warring. They participate in the discussion very positively. Check out for yourself! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 09:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd like to thank GPinkerton for opening this debate and I hope an admin would step in. As the one who filed the first two discussions about Syria Kurdistan, I'd like to add that there were already numerous high quality academic sources for a Syrian Kurdistan even before GPinkerton brought his sources. Amr Ibn will very probably not abide by academic sources has even removed[ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syrian_Kurdistan&diff=988047662&oldid=988045551&diffmode=source updated and new academic sources] before. To clarify: I have added high quality academic sources for a Syrian Kurdistan with no adaptions to the text, and Amr Ibn removed the sources. Amr Ibn doesn't seems to not like the fact that Kurds live in Syria and sees the Kurdish liberators from ISIS as occupiers. Other times he claimed that they are occupiers after they captured a town from ISIS is here, here. There are others as well. It would be similar if we'd portray the Greek or French Resistance fighting against NAZI Germany as occupiers of territory in France or Greece. I think this is a tough POV, as the vast majority of the media and probably all of the reliable academic sources view the areas liberated by from ISIS as liberated and not occupied. I seriously don't know, how this editor came through with this denialism of Syrian Kurdistan for so long with such an edit history.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, look who's speaking! An edit-warrior recently banned and who refused to abide by previous arbitration result by user Nightenbelle on a different page. Back to the page in question, we were reached a consensus before PC jumped in and started messing things up again. This prompted user Applodion, an editor on PC side of the story to remove part of PC's controversial edit there. Furthermore, user Sixula just chipped in and suggested an rfc. As a reminder, Sixula was helping with the NPOV case before user GPinkerton imposed themselves and jumped to conclusions. Again, I invite Admins to visit the Syrian Kurdistan page and Talk page (and other pages if they wish) to judge for themselves and see who the disruptive editor/s is/are. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

And, ISIS has nothing to do with this. You are basically saying "you can either be with ISIS or PYD/YPG Kurdish militia". Well, I don't want to be with either of those. This is not focus of this discussion or any other discussion I am involved in. We have a content dispute about the origin and adoption of the name Syrian/Western Kurdistan. Here is another academic reference saying PYD created the name rojava (West Kurdistan) (PYD invented rojava. P276 last paragraph). In the summer of 2012, the PYD took control of some towns in northern Syria which are predominantly Kurdish-inhabited. Over the following three years, the party expanded its territory and established a structure of autonomous government and associated institutions which it calls “Rojava” (west Kurdistan). Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Two of the editors who deny an existence of Syrian Kurdistan, user Amr Ibn and user Supreme Deliciousness wanted to move the page Syrian Kurdistan (Today called AANES) to Kurdish occupied regions in Syria in a move discussion in 2015.. Wanting to call Kobane Kurdish occupied in the midst of a siege of Kobane by ISIS... This might give you another insight into the mindset of the two editors. The edits of Amr Ibn are clearly tendentious and should have been seriously questioned by admins since years. For that an admin comes into the dispute.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Why should you support either ISIS or the YPG? The YPG-linked PKK and ISIS are both classified as terrorist organizations by the United States and the European Union. Is one really different from the other? Thepharoah17 (talk) 07:11, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

One doesn't have to support any of the two, but one can try to portray commonsense=vast majority of the academic views or an ISIL/Turkey POV which as to me, is not supported in any reliable source. The YPG is supported by the Global Coalition against ISIS consisting of 83 countries and NOT viewed as a terrorist organization by any country other than Turkey which literally imprisons academics for demanding peace.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:55, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

As Sixula told you on the NPOV page, "WP:COMMONSENSE is not viewed as a concrete argument, more as a "I believe my edit was common sense" but it is not something which you can repeat over and over, because if there is a lot of opposition clearly it isn't viewed as common sense." Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Please ping me when discussing things I've said on a separate page, I like to see what is being said about both me and my comments. Thanks, Sixula^Talk 23:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry Sixula, that was an oversight on my part. Thanks for your input. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 01:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

There is currently an RfC about Syrian Kurdistan going on at the Syrian Kurdistan article talk page. Amr Ibn wants to have it understood that if a source (Kurdish or/and Academic non-Kurdish) mention Syrian Kurdistan and/or Kurds in Syria or depicts a map with a Syrian part of Kurdistan it signifies that there exists no Syrian Kurdistan and therefore is an invention by Kurds. See here the diff of such an argument. There he refers to the sources presented by me and others. The ones added by me mention Syrian Kurdistan and/or depict a Syrian part of Kurdistan.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:39, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Proposed action

Editors opposing the unqualified use of the term "Syrian Kurdistan" need to be warned in some way to drop it. The phrase is not just "a term used" or "by some", and neither is it a conspiracy. Failing that, the relentless POV-pushing needs to be quelled in some other way. GPinkerton (talk) 09:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Could use a second pair of eyes at 8chan

There are some IP editors making some legal threats regarding the inclusion of a link to the 8chan website on the page about 8chan. I can see their argument that we shouldn't include the external link, but an uninvolved admin to help out with the edit war and legal threats would be appreciated. GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:14, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I did not make a legal threat; I removed a link to Child Pornography from Wikipedia that violates US Law and Wikipedia Policy. I was trying to get you to understand the situation and defer to legal staff at Wikipedia to make a determination. Wikipedia should not be linking to Child Pornography Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 16:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is also creating a liability for people such as myself who have used Wikipedia in good faith and INADVERTANTLY (and because of Wikipedia) landed on a link distributing Child Pornography. This is an extremely serious issue and concern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 16:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Just noting here that 71.203.10.104 has opened a discussion at WP:DRN#8chan. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

That discussion has now been closed under the reasoning of WP:NLT and because this particular discussion is also taking place here at WP:HAPPYPLACE.--WaltCip-(talk) 19:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

For now, I think we should just leave that link out until we reach a consensus on the matter. No harm can come of that. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Second that as well. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:35, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

None of us are lawyers (and those who are are not on the job). Pending a potential WP:OFFICE action (they might be interested in the subject), I don't think the legal argument is a good one. That being said, a link to 8chan doesn't provide any value whatsoever. -- Luk ^talk 00:13, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. We're not lawyers, but it's well within our capabilities to decide not to link to a site where we may inadvertently direct our readers to such content. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Despite denying they are making legal threats above, I can't see how their latest comment saying "A link to Child Pornography has the unwitting effect of making Wikipedia Editors, Users, and Administrators Law Breakers. Law Breakers in the worst sense because a single Cached image from an unintentional viewing of Child Pornography meets the standard for prosecution." is anything but. I agree that the link probably ought to be omitted from the article, but the WP:NLT need to stop. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I highly doubt that anyone who wants to go to 8chan, out of curiosity or whatever, needs a link from us to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that linking to a site that ALSO hosts child pornography (or copyvio material, or whatever illegal stuff) EQUALS 'linking to child pornography'. That being said, IMHO this site would qualify for wholesale blacklisting because there is material on the site that we should not be linking to (and we should do our utmost best to make sure that it does not get linked), but a whitelist rule should be instated to a 'neutral landing page'. Although on a different level, we can link to sci-hub, we cannot link to a lot of the material hosted on sci-hub, thus the website is blacklisted, the root is whitelisted. For that, I think the IP was wrong here, as is removal of the root link. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 16:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I fail to see how this user is making legal threats. They are pointing out (correctly) that merely visiting a site like that can cache illegal images to one's device and thus meet the threshold for being prosecuted in the US. It's a no-brainer to omit a link to this site from Wikipedia. --Laser brain (talk) 03:37, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Laser brain, their latest comment (linked above by GW) was probably okay until they ended with I was obligated to report this matter via the process established by the US DOJ and I copied the Wikimedia Foundation as a courtesy. Up until then they'd been on the right side of the line, IMO. —valereee (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Depending on a lot of things, they may be so required. Not sure what that does with WP:NLT (not something I've looked at closely), but I'd personally take it as a well-meaning notification. Hobit (talk) 19:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

User:ჯეო

On 2 June 2019, ჯეო was indefinitely blocked (not by me) on the Commons for repeated copyright violations. After a series of unresponsive/IDHT unblock requests, I removed talk page access there. Since that time, ჯეო has made numerous comments on my talk page here on en.wiki relating to that issue ([1][2] [3][4][5]), including what now appears to be monthly (22 September 2020, 13 October 2020‎, 13 November 2020.) The Commons issues have been clearly explained to them there (their talk page access was even conditionally restored in September, which they promptly violated). ჯეო has also been emailing me; I've asked them to desist in response. Although the content is banal, the inappropriate venue; the IDHT regarding the issues and venue; the failure to honour requests to stop; and especially the frequency, which now appears monthly (and is not limited to en.wiki, e.g., [6][7][8]), cause me to consider this as having moved beyond inappropriate and into harassment--whatever its motivation. I might suggest an interaction ban, but am open to any other remedy/sanction that would result in ჯეო's desistance. Эlcobbola _talk 22:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Let's do this:

• I'll block them from your talk page.  Done
• You turn off notifications from them in your preferences.
• If you haven't sent them email yet: Don't! And turn off email from them in your preferences as well.
• If you have sent them email before: we can't prevent them directly emailing you, but if they keep doing it, you should be able to forward the email to someone with authority at WMF (not 100% sure how it works, hopefully won't need to research) and they will likely be WMF banned.
• I make it clear to them that if they contact you anymore about a Commons-related issue, they will be blocked indef from en.wiki as well. Hopefully that will be sufficient deterrent.

@ჯეო: Leave. Elcobbola. Alone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I should add that we can't do anything about pestering you on other projects. You'd have to either talk to admins there, or try to get their account globally locked. @ჯეო:, is this what you want to happen? If not, then stop it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: I just wanted to get unblocked on Commons, because I think I can start work and I can help this project, I was trying to explain it--ჯეო4WIKI (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@ჯეო: You won't be able to get assistance from any of us here on English Wikipedia. And ANI is not the place to do it. Sorry. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 03:27, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Better policy about self promotion

We have come across a few editors over the years that are from other projects claiming they were asked to add content here as there job. Latest example was by User talk:Thehumantwig01 from Wikitongues who said I am an intern and it's my job to try to add these videos on as many pages..... Wondering if we should nip this type of stuff in the butt before it becomes even more common...with a better policy then we currently have. As in one geared to banning a site that does this type of actions related to paid editing to promote their own site.--Moxy 🍁 13:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure ANI is the best place to post this, but I agree. Squeeps10 ^{Talk to me}_{My edits} 18:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

An intern eh? Are we getting into WP:PAID territory? Mjroots (talk) 18:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Even if it's not paid, it's certainly a WP:COI violation. Every edit is adding "for Wikitongues" to the caption. For example, 1, 2, and 3 are their most recent edits. Woodroar (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Thehumantwig01, can you explain a little more about this internship? Is there someone at Wikitongues coordinating the intern efforts that maybe we could discuss this with? I believe you're working in good faith, but we work by WP:CONSENSUS here, and if other editors are disagreeing with you about whether a language video belongs in articles that aren't about that language, you'll have to accept that or risk not being allowed to edit here. —valereee (talk) 14:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, Wikipedia logged me out so I didn't see these messages sooner. I am an unpaid volunteer intern with Wikitongues and I have been adding the videos of language speakers that they collect onto language pages and pages that I believe are related (such as adding language videos to the "language" portion of Wikipedia pages about people who speak the language or countries who have that language declared as an official language). If other users have an issue with me posting the video on non-language pages, I will stop. My issue was that very few people had issues until one user came and reverted 46 of my edits that nobody had messaged me about or had any issues with, which I didn't think was a "consensus" thing, and so I was trying to explain my case to him. I will stop posting them on language pages. As for adding Wikitongues' name for credit on the video, I wasn't doing that to try to like promote them or use Wikipedia as a way to raise money or anything for them, but in the videos I had seen on Wikipedia before beginning editing, the captions always cited the source they had gotten the video from, so that's what I did too. If I restrict the videos to only language pages from here on, can I continue editing? Thanks! Jessica Britt (talk) 21:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Thehumantwig01, thanks for responding. IMO posting high-quality language videos to language pages is fine, although some videos may be less appropriate. I noticed one objection was to a video by a non-native speaker, another was to a video in which the multilingual speaker switched into English.

I personally am not sure I agree with Woodroar that this is necessarily a COI issue; that probably needs further discussion, possibly at WP:COIN instead of here. If it is, that doesn't mean you can't continue to do this work, only that instead of directly editing articles, you'd make edit requests on talk pages to get the videos added by another editor. It's an extra step, but the upside is that if that editor makes the edit, that shows at least one other editor thinks the addition is an improvement.

I also disagree that linking Wikitongues in captions is necessarily problematic. That would be something to get consensus on at articles; what I'd suggest is that if you add it in an article and other editors object, you accept that for that article, consensus is against you. If as time goes on you discover that you're getting pushback on it pretty much every time, I'd accept that as a general consensus. —valereee (talk) 16:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

But we're not talking about an intern with the Associated Press replacing citation needed tags with sources, something that's questionable COI-wise but almost definitely good for the project. Wikitongues has never been vetted by the community. It's not listed at WP:RSP, has never been discussed at WP:RSN, and doesn't appear to be widely cited by reliable sources. Plus their licenses may not be compatible with ours. I've seen plenty of artists and photographers blocked for spamming their content in articles, so we really shouldn't have different rules for non-profits. There really needs to be community buy-in for editing like this, at COIN—as you mentioned—and RSN, but possibly other noticeboards/projects depending on the circumstances. Woodroar (talk) 18:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Woodroar this is basically an RS-issue. I have commented on @Thehumantwig01's talk page on 12 Nov 2020: The addition of Wikitongues videos should be restricted to the page about the language featured in the video, and with maximal oversight with regards to its illustrative value. There are cases where speakers are non-native speakers, or native semi-speakers; further, there are many videos which contain introductory portions in other languages (usually the dominant standard language of the region), which is misleading for the casual listener. Don't leave this oversight to others. If you are not in the position to judge whether a video portrays the featured language in an authentic and illustrative manner, don't add it. Per default, Wikitongues is not a WP:reliable source. Given that at least four videos were removed because of such issues, I agree with the procedure suggested by Valereee above (edit requests on talk pages), as long as Wikitongues has not been community-vetted on WP:RSN. –Austronesier (talk) 10:39, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Interns are considered employees for the purposes of WP:PAID. There is currently no disclosure meeting the requirements. I also see no encyclopedic reason for adding the text "for Wikitongues" to the caption of all added videos (see MOS:CREDITS). That's just spam, and I'm removing the "for Wikitongues" part from the captions. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Cleanup done. Thehumantwig01, in the future, we don't need more edits like the following: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]. Thanks. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

User:Mike Novikoff

I'm sorry if this not the right place to discuss this (if this is the case, please move my message to a more appropriate location), but I have found myself in a fight with a user named Mike Novikoff. I saw him removing stress (accent) marks from names in the Cyrillic script (enclosed in a {{lang-ru}} template) and I've tried to stop him, but he continues. I have pointed him to WP:BRD and suggested that he starts a serious discussion of the issue on the Russian project talk page before continuing, but he doesn't want to listen. There's also another user that helped him.

Mike Novikoff even wrote an essay about the necessity to remove stress marks from Russian names (WP:RUSTRESS), which he promotes by including a link to it in his edit summaries. I've tried to move the essay to his user space, but he moved it back. (By the way, the essay is badly written, and it looks like an attack page against the Russian Wikipedia where Mike Novikoff is currently blocked.)

I don't really want to fight and I don't care much about the Navalny and Lenin pages where Mike Novikoff reverted me 3 times or so already, but I'm afraid that he starts to remove stress marks en masse. I'm concerned about the articles that don't have Russian-language versions. (There are many, cause the Russian Wikipedia has stricter notability rules.) And if there isn't a Russian version, there will be nowhere to go for the information on correct pronunciation, the information will be completely lost.

By the way, Mike Novikoff's essay says that an IPA transcription "is already present in most of the articles that need it", but that is simply not true. And Mike No\vikoff has already removed stress marks from some articles that didn't have an IPA transcription. Examples: [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Here are links to previous discussions:

• User talk:Mike Novikoff#WP:Stress marks in Russian words
• User talk:Retimuko#Alexei Navalny

As you can see, I've tried to explain to Mike Novikoff and Retimuko that most (if not all) Russian encyclopedias and dictionaries mark stresses. And that if they wanted to remove stress marks, a wide and thorough discussion would be necessary. But they don't seem to understand. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:37, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Moscow Connection, I've found that the best thing to do when you are in a dispute with another editor is to get more, knowledgeable editors involved in the discussion so it evolves out of a "me vs. you" tug of war to a "how can we improve this?" discussion. So, I was going to recommend you bringing this subject to Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia but it looks like most talk page messages there get zero responses. Are there places in Wikipedia, maybe Wikipedia:Manual of Style or Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages involving language, accents, stress marks and the like where some other editors could weigh in on this matter? I think you need to broaden the discussion beyond just the two of you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia is essentially dead. Probably WT:MOS could be the best place to discuss the issue.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, having a clear statement on this matter included in MoS would be the best of the options. I just hadn't aimed that high yet. Generally, I am removing these stress marks from Russian words (not only names) for a couple of years already, for the sake of the correct spelling, and such edits were never reverted until recently, so I dare say there is a kind of silent consensus on that. Only once I've been asked a question by a user (who didn't revert, just asked), then a user suggested that I write a more detailed description, hence I wrote WP:RUSTRESS and continued to happily edit using the shortcut instead of wordy summaries.

All of a sudden, Moscow Connection came down like a ton of bricks on me, and despite all the conversations I'm feeling a constant pressure from him for almost a month now. Did he mention that he moved my essay away twice, until having been stopped by an admin? Then he proceeded to constantly watch and revert my edits, including weird reversions, and he continues to do so. And he had put {{uw-3rr}} on my talk page thrice, despite it being a single-issue template, despite WP:Don't template the regulars and despite my request to stop it after the first one. He acts as if I'm doing something really disruptive and he has to stop me by all means, he even said this explicitly: "I can't allow him to do it". It looks like WP:HOUNDING (he really does inhibit my work), I'm sick and tired of this, so can you please tell him to slow down a bit? While we don't currently have a rule to remove the stress marks, we don't have one to put and keep them either, so Moscow Connection's behavior shouldn't be so aggressive.

there will be nowhere to go for the information on correct pronunciation, the information will be completely lost
A typical fallacy of an inexperienced editor (even though Moscow Connection doesn't look like one). If a research is so unique and original that it "will be completely lost", it definitely has no place in Wikipedia, that's what WP:OR is all about. — Mike Novikoff 02:05, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

How is it both "your" essay and not in your User Space? It's either one or the other, surely. Nfitz (talk) 22:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Insistent SPA engaging in disruptive behaviour

User:WikiCorrection0283 is a single-purpose account, whose only activity to date has been composed of adding heavy WP:OR and WP:POV violations to the article List of massacres in Cyprus, e.g. [27]. This has been going on for a couple of months really but has really recently escalated. The content is a collage of content copied and pasted from other articles (content that I myself wrote), random references that have little or no relevance to the topic and pure original research without any sources. Despite attempts at communication and clear previous consensus amongst editors on what to include, the user insists on making these mass additions and responds with walls of texts on Talk:List of massacres in Cyprus, replete with personal attacks against me, which is frankly in harassment territory by now, taking into consideration their edit summaries too. Clear case of WP:NOTHERE. Pinging other users involved: Beshogur, Mr.User200. --GGT (talk) 00:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

User:GGT you should have waited for my response and of other fellow editors on the article talk page, also this by your part is really not helping, it never helps. User:WikiCorrection0283 was a Anon IP before October 2020, seems he tries to help in Wikipedia at his particular way. I hope more can be achieved in the talk page that apealing to warns and reverts. I propose that WikiCorrection0283 use his draft space to propose a version for the article and make the observations opinions on it.Mr.User200 (talk) 00:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I stand by my original conclusion - the user is a clear SPA as any third-party editor will be able to see from their contributions and the walls of text, personal attacks and mass manipulations of references are clear red flag signs that the user is not here to build an encyclopaedia. --GGT (talk) 01:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

User Wikicorrection0283 shows particular interest on that article, during a short period of time, likely a SPA. User:GGT also edit several Cyprus related articles too, but have more time editing. Maybe a concensus could be achieved.Mr.User200 (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, in fact they only show interest in that article. That's why they're called an SPA. I've worked on these articles for years and I know a POV-pushing SPA when I see one. The reason I'm calling for administrative attention is because all the red flag signs are clearly there. --GGT (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Being an SPA is not a violation of policy. Most editors start out their editing careers as SPAs. It's the WP:OR that I'm more concerned about. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure I looked like one: created account, made 12 edits, then created a bio on someone whose first name was Valerie. Hahaha... Agree with Liz, the simple fact it's an SPA isn't the problem. —valereee (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

That is true, but letting the SPA emphasis aside, that the single purpose here is OR is quite a problem. And the OR is quite insidious. I've been working on these articles for years and wouldn't be able to identify it if it wasn't for 1) the user copying content that I wrote myself 2) me having relatively easy access to a legal deposit library. Another editor could very easily overlook it. The user has been made fully aware, and has only responded with walls of texts and personal attacks. --GGT (talk) 01:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Liz and I have both posted to the user's talk, dealing with walls of text, personal attacks, and using typographics for emphasis. They've also been pointed at Teahouse. The OR issue can be a pretty steep learning curve for a lot of newer users; if WikiCorrection0283 refuses to try to learn that lesson, that would be evidence of being here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. WC0283, I recommend you read the information both at that link and at WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, and if you feel you don't understand, go to Teahouse and ask for help. —valereee (talk) 12:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Rude and aggressive comments from User:Sailor Sam

The discourse can be seen here on my talk page. I nominated a page (Zappa (film)), which I thought non-notable, for deletion about 3 weeks ago. it was hastily declined. OK, whatever. But User:Sam Sailor seems to have taken exception to this, questioning, among other things, my knowledge of the Danish language, my editing history (which I stand fully behind), making (in my belief) unfounded accusations of disruptive editing, and generally communicating in an aggressive and generally uncivil manor towards myself.

Additionally, upon further inspection, he/she has made reverts of at least one edit I made in an unrelated article, Astronomy (song).

Also, the editor in question has made rude commentary about the incident on another editor's talk page.

I have also explicitly informed them not to contact me again.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 17:59, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@L1A1 FAL: First, you seem to have ignored the big warning telling you that you must notify any editor you bring up for discussion. I will do so for you, but please make sure to do so yourself in the future. Anyway, I don't see why this is at ANI. You asked the editor not to contact on your talk page. Fine. If they editor kept contacting you, I could understand an ANI thread, but that has happened yet. Reverting a single edit they saw in your edit history (I assume) is clearly not anywhere enough to count as WP:Hounding. Their discussion with Lugnuts seems to be just two editors exasperated at what they felt was a terrible nomination. The stuff on your talk page seems mostly fine. Asking you if you spoke Danish was reasonable under the circumstances. WP:BEFORE means you should generally look for sources before nominating and although it looks like a bunch of English sources were found, it's possible most sources for a Danish film will be in Danish, so if you didn't understand Danish, completing before would likely have been difficult. Nil Einne (talk) 18:44, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

BTW, remember that while you are allowed to ask editors not to contact you on your talk page, this doesn't mean you can escape responsibility for your edits. If there are problems with your AfDs and an editor has tried to help you but you've ignored them and told them not to contact you, they will be well within their rights to bring it ANI to have you sanctioned e.g. topic banned from AfD if the problem continues. The community is likely to accept that attempts to discuss the problem with you were limited by your refusal to discuss the matter, and that therefore sanctions may be warranted even with limited attempts to resolve the matter first. Nil Einne (talk) 18:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

The AFD was speedily declined, within 24 hours. I had minimal opportunity to respond to the matter. Offer help? Sam Sailor didn't even contact me until after the matter was closed. He contacted me over a matter that was, by that point, closed. I find that nonconstructive, to say the least.

The particular edit he reverted was a valid edit that I made, removing informtion not relevant to the target of the article. I believe he simply reverted it based on my edit summary, and their and my back-and-forth, rather than the actual matter of the edit, or having any knowledge of the subject themself.

I did not see the warning. That is on me. I am beyond exasperated with this editor, and just wanted this issue addressed.

And why should I be sanctioned? I didn't act in bad faith. The matter was over when he/she contacted me. I tried to engage them.. I've never had any issues about AFD before, so I believe that your understanding of this matter is incorrect. Their communication with me was unnecessary, given that the AFD was declined, and it was additionally, needlessly accusatory and WP:uncivil.

Additionally, they came at me today, after probably about a week of no communication. While they probably ultimately have good motives, there is no reason that the substance of their conduct should not be addressed.-L1A1 FAL (talk) 19:00, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Again it's a single edit. Right or wrong, it's minor enough it's unreasonable to expect sanction over it, the same way it would be to sanction you over a poor AfD or not notifying them. If there is continued dispute over the edit, take it to Talk:Astronomy as always. There should be no reason why it needs to be at ANI. If there is a continued pattern of reverting your edits especially unnecessarily, or following you around, then sure sanction may be justified. But not over a single edit. Also substance of what conduct? What on earth are you talking about? Editors aren't required to use Wikipedia 24/7 nor are they required to respond to stuff straight away. You've told them you no longer welcome communication. Just leave it at that and stop wasting everyone's time. If you continue to make poor AfDs, that's on you, so please do seek feedback in appropriate venues if you're not willing to discuss the problems. Nil Einne (talk) 19:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

(EC) Looking more carefully, I see you did say "And unless you actually have something to discuss, please do not contact me again, or a complaint will be filed" and the editor responded. Them replying after you said this seems okay since they felt they did have something to discuss. The fact you didn't welcome their reply is unfortunate but it wasn't a clear request to stay away. Their reply could have been more polite, but yours could have been as well. Now that you've left a clear request to stay away, this should be respected and I've reminded them that they should do so. Nil Einne (talk) 19:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I saw your comment on their page, and can't help but feel as though you have more-or less invited them to counter-report me. I find this unfortunate. I also had more to add, but it got caught in an edit conflict. I'm not retyping it, as I feel that this is going nowhere, and I have real-life matters to attend to. I would greatly appreciate it if you would address Sam's tone in his communication, but I can see you feel different than I. Good day.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 19:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

It is interesting that Sam Sailor is pretending to coach L1A1 FAL on dispute resolution and conversation, in the same edit with the ad hominem attack "I chose to disregard that you did not wish to discuss your incompetence". And yes, starting by challenging his knowledge of Danish, when he had never claimed such, was an aggressive and counter-production way to start a conversation. So whack Sam with a trout or something. Dicklyon (talk) 20:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Shakshak31

Shakshak31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Ever since the eruption of the new Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, some new user/IPs have arrived to this site, including User:Shakshak31, who seemingly is not here to here to build an encyclopedia, but rather, to be on a mission of Turkification.

Some of his diffs:

Personal attacks: speak properly dummy. I'm not sockpuppet of someone. I just didn't see the archive

Major lack of WP:CIR [28] [29]. Honestly this person is impossible to work with, admittingly I don't have the best patience for this kind of stuff, yet my point remains.

Removal/alteration of sourced information and edit warring in a GA article to push his own POV, completely ignoring WP:CONSENSUS and whatnot [30] [31] [32]

Some of these removals include cited stuff such as:

Basarab's name implies that he was of Cuman or Pecheneg ancestry, but this hypothesis has not been proven.[8][11][12]

A scholarly hypothesis states that he was descended from Seneslau, a mid-13th-century Vlach lord.[4][5]

Changed the lede as well: Although his name is of Turkic origin, 14th-century sources unanimously state that he was a Vlach. -> There are multiple theories about his ethnicity.

Anti-Iranian behaviour or at least more disrespect from his side:

I'm deleting my own comment. because the iranian guy deleted my other comment.

== Persian chauvinism == Hello teacher, farsi editors on wikipedia are making Turkish history Iranian. They constantly write "Turco-persian, Turco-afghan, persianized" to Turkish states, but for example, they treat safevis whose origins are controversial as if they were purebred Kurds. Also, I added the posters to the List of Turkic dynasties and countries list. The guys watched all the articles about Turkish. If anything they don't want, they say unreliable source and delete it directly. I've never seen such a lousy site. These are the thieves of history. I will be glad if you can do something. I, too, that same farsi complained to someone I don't know called sockpuppeti and I will be banned soon. Come easy to you. You can delete the message after reading it.

--HistoryofIran (talk) 19:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I've already explained all my edits about Basarab on The talk page. [33]--Shakshak31 (talk) 19:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I never deleted the sentence he was talking about. It's still there. I just cleared the page, made grammer edits, and deleted theories such as the theory that his name came from the dacio-thracian language. Because Dacian-thracian language died out almost a thousand years before Basarab's birth. [34]--Shakshak31 (talk) 19:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Also this translation sucks. what is "hello teacher"? Lol--Shakshak31 (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

If User:Shakshak31 is responding here, can he explain his comment, "these are the thieves of history" (Google translated from Turkish). I am familiar with past disputes about the origins of the Safavid dynasty. Over the years, that page has had to be protected about 15 times, mostly to deter people who want to make the Safavids more Turkish and less Persian. Sources seem to agree that they were both. If Shakshak31 shows by his talk comments that he is unable to edit neutrally in this domain, some restrictions may be needed. Also, if you really think this is 'a lousy site' why wouldn't you take your efforts elsewhere? At present I'm not convinced that Shakshak31 is a sockpuppet, though socks are often known for their sudden arrival on Wikipedia with strong opinions that they make known immediately. EdJohnston (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

EdJohnston It's not about the Safavids. I added the Afsharids to the List of Turkic dynasties and countries because they were Turkmens from the Afshar tribe. Also Nader Shah's mother tongue was Turkic and Nader Shah doesn't have any Iranian (as ethnicity) ancestry. But a Persian editor revert it. That's what that sentence was about. --Shakshak31 (talk) 23:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: Shakshak has made unacceptable statements in his edits as can be seen above, referring to other editors as "thieves of history", amongst others. When confronted with these edits, right here at ANI, he still refers to another editor as "a Persian editor",[35] a clear violation of WP:NPA. Looking at the compelling evidence, its safe to say that Shakshak31 is not here to build this encyclopedia. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Is Persian an insult?--Shakshak31 (talk) 13:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

You say it in demeaning way, you do realize we all have usernames? Do you refer people by their background instead of names irl too? Also, instead of asking questions, shouldn't u answer Ed already? This is exactly what I mean that this user is impossible to work with. He won't answer your questions / avoids them, and when he actually does, it's barely. HistoryofIran (talk)

• @Shakshak31: I will block you indefinitely if there are any further comments along the lines of "a Persian editor revert it" (diff above). Any similar terms that attempt to describe an editor are also totally unacceptable. At Wikipedia, what counts is the edit (the text that is displayed in an article). Any assumed characteristic of the editor making an edit is irrelevant. Johnuniq (talk) 02:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Interesting that @Shakshak31: became active again a few hours after his disruption at Basarab I of Wallachia (which he forced on the article by edit warring) was partly reverted by another user. He is yet to answer what he was asked here. He has now resumed his attempt to Turkify the article once more by removing sourced info and this time even adding his own personal opinion [36] [37]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

First read what the sources state and then talk. [38] [39]--Shakshak31 (talk) 00:50, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

We've literally already had this discussion, you are trying to force a theory into a fact. Hell, you even added your own personal words to the article. WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT at best. We have rules here, which you are breaking right left and center. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:54, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

NorthBySouthBaranof

The editor NorthBySouthBaranof seems to revert politically contentious edits, edits intended to improve an article's neutrality, on articles that have serious left wing biases in certain places. This has been a problem for a while, starting with George Floyd's article, where I wanted to add more information on Mr. Floyd's medical examiner report. He reverted that edit, and claimed that reverting his revert was a blockable edit warring. Looking at his userpage, you can see many cases, and even more if you look in the talk page's edit history, of people complaining about him reverting edits intended to improve the representation of both sides in an article.

He has been a significant hindrance in me trying to improve the representation of all people, regardless of whether or not they are progressives or conservatives, in articles. It seems that I try to remove more liberal biases than conservative ones, but the fact of the matter is that there are more liberal biases than conservative ones.

Thanks, --JazzClam (talk) 01:58, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Have you considered the parable of The Mote and the Beam? Acroterion (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @JazzClam: I strongly suggest providing WP:DIFFs that support your claim. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I'll echo what Tenryuu said. We can't possibly know what you're talking about, and thus make any determination as to whether there's actually a substantive behavioural issue, without a few illustrative examples. Otherwise it's just hearsay, and your subjective interpretation... Which obviously isn't fair to the editor being reported if we were to only rely on that. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)Op seems to be engaged in a content dispute on Ilhan Omar204.76.134.30 (talk) 03:34, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Where it looks like a number of editors have reverted their "improvements" to the article. It seems that the PoV may be on the other foot. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)@Beyond My Ken: Bravo! 👏204.76.134.30 (talk) 04:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think OP could benefit from discussing their edits on the affected articles' talk pages. Checking Talk:Ilhan Omar as an example they haven't engaged other editors as to why their edits are being reverted. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:59, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

My revert on Ilhan Omar is self-explanatory. Their edit removed the well-sourced description of Donald Trump's false, defamatory claims that Omar praised al-Qaida and smeared American soldiers. This is, of course, unacceptable - WP:BLP demands that we not falsely defame living people, and thus if we include notable false claims about a living person, we must be crystal clear that they are false. For that and other reasons, their edit was objectionable and I reverted it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

NorthBySouthBaranof, JazzClam posted a notice on your talk page 2 minutes after this report was submitted. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

And see the OP's talk page. I'm wondering if an AE sanction is need here. Doug Weller talk 06:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

The OP's record here is not terribly impressive -- basically a run-of-the-mill POV pusher. They have also violated 1RR at Ilhan Omar. --JBL (talk) 13:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to stop at Ilhan Omar; JazzClam seems to have been trying to remove properly-sourced negative Trump statements from several articles, such as their thrice-reverted removals of content from Postal voting in the United States that described (with sources) Donald Trump's efforts to obstruct postal voting this year. There's also a copy of George Floyd's toxicology report that they pasted into Draft:Pyrotol (a completely unrelated title), which seems to be part of a plan to revisit their proposal to state, in Wikipedia's voice, in the lead of the George Floyd article, that his death was the result of a fentanyl overdose and not from having a police officer kneel on his neck for nine minutes (example). What they describe here as "improving neutrality" is really glossing over or removing any reliably-sourced information they appear to disagree with, which has the effect of skewing these articles to a more pro-Trump point of view which is not supported by material published in reliable sources. I suggest a topic ban covering the scope of WP:ARBAP2 is probably in order. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:32, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not trying to edit for political gain, that's it. I'm trying to improve the political neutrality of the encyclopedia. The fact of the matter simply is, that there are more typically liberal biases on this encyclopedia than typically conservative ones. I mostly remove politically contentious keywords and replace them with neutral ones. In the case of the Ilhan Omar article, I changed a line saying "Trump claimed without evidence" to "Trump claimed". That was it, the content of the line is still the same, a claim is a statement, whether or not it is true, in this case it was false, and the "without evidence" portion simply served to villainize (not saying i approved of what he said) him, that's it. All i do is remove or change keywords like that, things that detract from this encyclopedia's neutrality. I don't remove any facts, or add any competing ones, I just remove sketchy wording that makes articles seem more like an opinion piece rather than a neutral, irrefutably factual, article. JazzClam (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

You grossly fail to understand NPOV. -- Valjean (talk) 23:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@JazzClam: On Wikipedia, WP:NEUTRAL means that we—as editors—must neutrally summarize what reliable sources say. It does not mean that Wikipedia needs to maintain a WP:FALSEBALANCE between left and right (or science and religion, or any other X vs. Y dispute). If more reliable sources favor one side, then we give WP:WEIGHT to that side, and we characterize the other side as a minority position. If most or all reliable sources favor one side, we may not even mention the other side at all. That's what NPOV means. Woodroar (talk) 00:01, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@JazzClam:, Woodroar is right. I suggest you read my essay about this: NPOV means neutral editing, not neutral content. -- Valjean (talk) 02:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Boomerang sanctions against JazzClam

• JazzClam appears to be here for political reasons rather than for the purpose of improving the encyclopedia. See WP:NOTHERE. The least response would be a post-1932 US politics topic ban. Otherwise an indefinite block. Binksternet (talk) 16:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• 1st choice, Indef block. 2nd choice TBAN post-1932.(derp) for JazzClam; I have little confidence in their desire to not propagandize or (in their eyes) RGW. That they spread the POV pushing to an area outside post 1932 US politics and that they bring a complaint to ANI when someone does not go along with their agenda makes clear they would not be able to contain themselves. They are NOTHERE. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:52, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support TBAN post-1932 - This user JazzClam has some constructive edits outside of political topics. But I saw a few red flags while browsing their contribs. They thought it okay to use a draft page to put together a table of the toxicology report for George Floyd ([40]) while pushing to include info about a "fatal" fentanyl level in his blood. Recently, nearly all their edits have been to keep "NPOV" by removing Trump-critical content, and even "China-centric" content ([41]). There is also this user page edit that is somewhat concerning. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

• Just for clarity, @Deepfriedokra and EvergreenFir: can you clarify if you mean you support a block/TBAN against NBSB or JazzClam? At a glance it appears to be the former, but I think you mean the latter. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare: Thank you for noticing that. I was referring to JazzClam. I will edit to clarify. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

• Per my comment above I support AP2 topic ban, but oppose indef block. The user has constructive contributions outside of this scope, I haven't seen any evidence of WP:NOTHERE but whoever said WP:RGW hit the nail on the head (I was going to say WP:TE). Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:31, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support AP2 topic ban for JC -- the RGW stuff needs to stop, but I think it's worth exploring the possibility that they can contribute constructively in other areas. --JBL (talk) 21:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support AP2 TB for JazzClam - an indef is not necessary at this time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support AP2 TB for JazzClam. The degree of their failure to understand NPOV is appalling, so they should stay away from controversial articles until they have learned to understand that policy. -- Valjean (talk) 02:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support AP2 TB for JazzClam. The area is sufficiently troubled without someone who totally misunderstands NPOV. Johnuniq (talk) 02:38, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support AP2 TB for JazzClam and request close per above. Lev¡vich 21:04, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

IP-hopper stalks users and calls them Serbian propagandists. Should this be an LTA? Should he be community banned for harassment?

WP:HARASSMENT. This user is an IP-hopper that stalks a group of users's contribs and constantly reverts them, and calls them Serbian propagandists. Is there any solution to this? Examples: Special:Contributions/93.138.151.117 Special:Contributions/93.136.125.178 There are a lot more socks, but these two are the ones came to my head. 4thfile4thrank {talk} :? 00:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

4thfile4thrank I agree there is a bad problem here, which you have tried to find help for. These IPs, possibly rangers are prolific. I'm not an admin who can handle this, but you certainly need admin intervention in this situation. Whoever is behind the IP seems willing to keep the edit warring indefinitely. — Maile (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

93.138.76.165 and Government of National Salvation

One looks at the talk page User talk:93.138.76.165 shows that this IP is clearly not here to build an encyclopaedia, and is now making personal attacks via edit summary [42]. Could someone please block them? I have protected the article. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Block me. Listen to the disguised great serbian propagandist. 93.138.76.165 (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Just wait until someone blocks you. Just wait. D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 01:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I think this is the same as the IP mentioned above, so making this a subsection. — Maile (talk) 01:09, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: Can Hrvatska radiotelevizija be semi-protected? Look at the revision history. I was battling reversion with that disruptive IP. 4thfile4thrank {talk} :? 01:13, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

This needs to be an LTA. This has been going on for months. Look at the socks. 4thfile4thrank {talk} :? 01:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)  Done. I have blocked this particular IP (93.138.76.165 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) for 48 hours. Mz7 (talk) 01:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I have also been attacked by the same individual. [43] Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• I'm only just driving by here but please see User:Ivanvector/Serbian Army vandal and/or Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/VJ-Yugo. I'll look into this some more when I get to a PC. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• I have already reported the Zagreb-based group of IP's for long-term abuse, but no one responded.--WEBDuB (talk) 14:30, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

User:Bus stop bludgeoning discussion at Talk:Parler

Can I get some uninvolved admin eyes on User:Bus stop's behavior at Talk:Parler? It's getting absolutely ridiculous. I initially created the RfC in part because we were going in circles, but it doesn't appear to have helped. The user keeps WP:REHASHing the same arguments over and over and over again—claiming that people have not explained why the mention of antisemitic content on Parler ought to be included in the lead when they have (often more than once), and most often repeating the WP:OTHERCONTENT argument that "if it's not in the lead of Twitter, why should it be included here?". Multiple users have asked them to stop, but they are continuing. I don't know if they genuinely believe it's a legitimate argument or if their intent is to overwhelm and derail the discussions there, but the end result is the same. Talk:Parler#Description_of_this_service is the most recent example of the behavior, but it can be viewed up and down the talk page including in Talk:Parler#Heavy bias circumvents guidelines of conservative, dispassionate descriptions. Please remove subjective and unsubstantiated "antisemitism" claim and in the RfC. They began doing this on November 7 (see my comments then: [44], [45]) and have shown no sign of slowing.

Diffs of multiple editors explaining to them they need to stop, that their behavior is disruptive, and/or that discussion of Twitter should happen at Talk:Twitter:

• Myself: [46], [47], [48], [49], [50], [51], [52], [53]
• IHateAccounts: [54], [55], [56]
• Slatersteven: [57], [58]
• XOR'easter: [59], [60]
• Grayfell: [61], [62], [63]

I am also seeing that Bus stop has quite the history at ANI, including numerous discussions about disruption at articles related to Judaism that go quite far back. Not sure if anyone more familiar with their history could provide additional context.

Thanks in advance to whoever wades through that long talk page to try to sort this out. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Bus stop is on a roll again--an AP2 topic ban would be a great help. Drmies (talk) 02:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• This has happened many times at AP articles, often over minor issues or trivia, as at Donald Trump and Stefan Molyneux. [64] SPECIFICO talk 02:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Bus stop's first comment in this mess, to the best of my knowledge, was their inserting language ranting about "social media oligarchs", specifically naming Twitter, in a response to a thread that an abusive user titled "User GorillaWarfare Twitter Troll" [65]. The abusive user in question vanished after GorillaWarfare asked for others to step in here [66]. It got more crazy when Bus stop jumped in to support the abusive user's illegitimate call for a "vote" [67] in which said user accused GorillaWarfare repeatedly of being a paid employee of Twitter, and then they went back to complaining about and trying to compare Parler to Twitter [68][69][70][71][72].

This has been going on for the better part of two weeks now and I have felt for several days that it had passed into the realm of Sealioning and Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing behavior, but today's comment that started with "I am merely asking you for your reasoning, GorillaWarfare" and falsely accusing GorillaWarfare of being unwilling to defend her reasoning [73], followed by regurgitating once again "There is no reason this article should deviate from the Twitter article. Left-leaning politics is not a reason" [74], was definitive. IHateAccounts (talk) 02:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• This is standard operating procedure for Bus stop. Even when it is explained to Bus stop that they could easily get a consensus for their desired edit, Bus stop can't resist the opportunity to browbeat an editor instead of simply seeking an easy consensus. Here's my experience in which I explained to Bus stop that I would not oppose their attempt to change consensus. It seems that Bus stop relishes the bludgeoning process. Sundayclose (talk) 02:33, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• I've warned Bus Stop multiple times about bludgeoning since July, including this one which referenced a commitment on their talk in September of 2019 to no more bludgeoning discussions. —valereee (talk) 11:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• I'd support an AP topic ban. Doug Weller talk 19:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• I think a rate limit would be more effective, like a sitewide restriction of 3 posts per thread, appealable in six months. I don't think the posting-too-much is limited to any particular topic area. Lev¡vich 19:42, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • A rate limit seems like it would be easy to circumvent by just starting a new thread. --WMSR (talk) 20:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) Indeed -- part of the issue has been that Bus stop is bringing up the same argument at practically every new thread on the page (and the page has attracted a lot of new users who are starting new threads because they don't know to read up on the talk page to see if the discussion has already started). GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:25, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• I agree with Levivich. If bludgeoning is the only behavior issue then some sort of voluntary/mandatory restriction on talk page discussions is in order. Perhaps they are allowed 1 reply to another editor per day unless the are reply to a comment made directly to them. This can be a bit of rope before an AP2 tban. Springee (talk) 20:00, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Given MastCell's comment about prior blocks (below) I have less faith in my more narrow approach. Springee (talk) 20:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
    • I'm pulling that back. The most recent block was from April 2011! [75]] If that was the last block I think some rope should be allowed in this case. Springee (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• An AP topic ban seems like the minimum appropriate response, given this editor's history. He has at least 3 indefinite blocks in the past, primarily (it would appear) for obsessively partisan editing and a fixation on tagging people he identifies as Jews. Each indefinite block was lifted in exchange for mentorship and a promise of good behavior (here's a representative example). His mentors are mostly gone from Wikipedia, but he's still here, and his behavior is still poor (as the diffs above demonstrate). At some point we have to show at least some nominal respect and value to the constructive editors who have to deal with Bus stop's disruptive editing, instead of endlessly enabling him. Cutsomized post restrictions would potentially be appropriate if this were the first, or second, or even third instance of disruptive behavior, but we're well beyond that. An AP2 topic ban would be appropriate and can be enacted by any uninvolved admin, although an indefinite block is also more than justified by his history and ongoing disruption. MastCell ^Talk 20:02, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• I would like to see what they have to say about the situation but mostly I am swayed by Levivich and Springee. Seems the most common sense and helpful approach. PackMecEng (talk) 20:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• AP topic ban. Pretty simple. They've had plenty of rope over the time and haven't changed behavior.--Jorm (talk) 20:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• Topic banned. I've topic banned Bus stop indefinitely from all pages and discussions concerning post-1932 American politics. Bishonen | tålk 20:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC).
• I'm late to this party, and here only because I saw the notice of indefinite AP topic ban on Bus stop's UTP. He has been a clear net-negative on article talk pages for years, and my exposure to that has been mostly outside the AP area. So I agree it's not just AP, and perhaps a more appropriate sanction would be community ban, but the AP ban is far better than nothing. By the way, the serious problems also include persistent circular and repetitive argument that tends to make it less likely that arriving editors will read any of the existing discussion, largely defeating its purpose. Despite repeated exhortations Bus stop has seemed unable to grasp the concepts that a discussion is more than a debate between two or three editors, and that one doesn't need to keep repeating the same arguments over and over. While I doubt this TBAN will be the end of the Bus stop problem, it's a welcome step in the right direction. I only wish it didn't take years to reach this point. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:13, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

  I imagine that continuance of the behavior that just led to an indefinite AP topic ban would make a pretty convincing case for a community ban, if it comes to that. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

  It's been going on for 14 years, including previous complete Wikipedia bans, yet here we are again. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

  Please add these to my list: 1. Repeatedly asking you to answer a question that you have already answered multiple times, and, when you finally stop responding to those demands, accusing you of not being willing to participate in constructive discussion. 2. Believing that a discussion must continue until one of the parties is convinced by the other. That almost never happens, and it is not the purpose of discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse the AP2 topic ban, and the notion that violations should lead to an indef block and a CBan discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:45, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• This is just the latest in a long line of topics and discussions that Bus stop has mercilessly bludgeoned. A year ago he was banned from Aministrator Noticeboards for 3 months for bludgeoning a dicussion there: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1017#Formal_proposal_2. After that he stated "I commit to no more bludgeoning", yet I've seen many discussions since then which he has bludgeoned. User:GorillaWarfare, User:Valereee and User:Mandruss have it right in that this isn't about AP2 per se, but about 14 years of bludgeoning discussions. After each sanction (or serious threat of one), Bus stop "reforms", but it rarely lasts more than a couple of months. User:Sundayclose is correct when they write "It seems that Bus stop relishes the bludgeoning process". I appreciate the topic ban User:Bishonen, but that just means the bludgeoning will soon start up elsewhere. Building on User:Springee's idea, I think a limit of one comment/reply per page per day might help Bus stop overcome his apparent need to bludgeon. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• Y'all deserve to be bludgeoned Parler:

  Parler is an American microblogging and social networking service launched in August 2018. Parler has a significant user base of Trump supporters, conservatives, and right-wing extremists. Posts on the service often contain far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories. Wikipedia

  If you take the time to read the referenced sources, the main themes are: free speech, explosive growth due to mass exodus of conservatives, fracturing of our information sources, and yes about 2/3 down in most articles highlighting the nasty content. Editing so as to get the most damning aspects of something you don't like to show up in the google search results seems the way WP is written these days. fiveby(zero) 23:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Reality is just biased. GPinkerton (talk) 23:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
    • People are biased, reality just is. It is a shame they did not even get to reply or defend themselves though. PackMecEng (talk) 00:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
      • Check out BitChute. Same deal. I initiated a discussion on the lede, which can be found here. That was on 4 September 2020. Here is what the lede looked like on 4 September 2020. It read BitChute is a video hosting service known for accommodating far-right individuals and conspiracy theorists.[9] The platform was created in 2017 to allow video uploaders to avoid content rules enforcement on YouTube,[10] and some creators who have been banned from YouTube or had their channels barred from receiving advertising revenue ("demonetized") have migrated to BitChute.[2] The Southern Poverty Law Center has said the site hosts "hate-fueled material".[11] That's not the way a lede should be written. That constitutes left-leaning point-of-view-pushing. A lede is not a billboard. The point-of-view-pushing on Wikipedia is not primarily being done by those of us who might be considered "conservative", whatever that means. Thank you, Fiveby, PackMecEng, for weighing in. Bus stop (talk) 00:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Wow, I think this [76] is relevant. IHateAccounts (talk) 01:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Repeating, once again, arguments you've repeated ad nauseum about an AP2 topic on the thread in which you've just received a ban in the AP2 topic area for bludgeoning discussions, and where people have expressed concerns the behavior will continue, is certainly a bold choice. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

We shouldn't write ledes of social media articles that maximally disparage the underlying entity. This is what I am objecting to. Ledes are not required to do anything. It is entirely gratuitous to load the lede of a Parler or a BitChute article with every reliably-sourced, negative comment we can find. Bus stop (talk) 01:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Astonishing. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I just realized that fiveby said "y'all deserve to be bludgeoned" above, isn't that some kind of threat? IHateAccounts (talk) 01:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

No, in context I don't think so, when the metaphorical use of "bludgeon" is omnipresent in the conversation. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• Community ban now. I'm convinced this is the best solution after reading all the comments and evidence above. -- Valjean (talk) 01:50, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• I ran into an EC when Bish issued the TBan, and decided not to add. But, since this continues: The bludgeoning issue has existed for a long time and warnings haven’t helped. I asked Bus Stop to read BLUDGEON long ago, they said thank you, and then shortly after continued. This is quite disruptive on a page with several editors. I don’t think restricting edits per thread makes sense as repetition of an argument is more of the problem than sheer number of edits. An AP2 TBan would certainly help the situation and perhaps will provide time for the editor to understand the problem. O3000 (talk) 01:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• Endorse per Beyond My Ken. Firestar464 (talk) 03:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - Bus stop and I have had major editorial disagreements on four pages, two on articles I had originally created. I can't recall ever agreeing with them. That said, their disagreement, and repeated replies to other editors, never caused any disruption: in every case they were outnumbered, they argued their case, and that was the end of it. Given this, I don't understand why they are being banned from AP. Yes they respond with their opinion more than you want, and yes most of you (and me too apparently) disagree with them, but I don't perceive how having their opinion on the talk page is disruptive. In fact, when arguing with Bus stop in the past in the AP area, I've been acutely aware of the fact that a majority of reliable sources are on my side, but that Bus stop is expressing the view of a minority of American editorial boards - presumably those on the right of American politics — and is also expressing the views of perhaps 30-40 % of the United States. I'd rather have that view represented in the talk pages. And from a procedural perspective, why is action being taken against a long-term editor (not a vandal) after less than 24 hours of discussion? And before they've had a chance to defend themselves? -Darouet (talk) 03:13, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Darouet: The issue and disruption is Sealioning, WP:SEALION behavior. In this case, they have been ceaselessly re-demanding that GorillaWarfare and others expend time and energy responding to the same questions that have been answered over and over again, all the way from November 3rd to now. IHateAccounts (talk) 03:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Darouet: 1. Your experience with Bus stop has been completely different from mine. 2. You are largely missing the point. 3. As for defending himself, he has offered no defense on his UTP, and his only "defense" here has been to continue the same "I just can't shut up" behavior that everybody is complaining about. GW calls him on it here, and what is his reply to that? More of the same! Could the evidence be any clearer that Bus stop just doesn't get it? Given the long history here, could the evidence be any clearer that Bus stop is incapable of getting it? From a procedural perspective, Bus stop has shown that it would have been pointless to wait. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Darouet, please look at the diffs provided and not rely on your memory. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Darouet: if an admin feels that a topic ban is justified and the requirements to impose such a ban under the WP:ACDS process is meet, they do not need any specific community backing/consensus for such a ban. That's the point of the process, it allows admins to act without needing a long community discussion for each case. The topic ban can be appealed by Bus stop, as with all such bans. The number of endorses complicates things a bit, but in general, Bishonen is free to reconsider the ban based solely on Bus stop's request, and arbcom themselves could be willing to modify the ban. By comparison, for a community ban, it could not be simply overturned by Bishonen, and while arbcom is I believed technically still allowed to overturn such bans my understanding is they've said they won't overturn community bans. Also appealing a community ban just after it was imposed is nearly always an instant fail, whereas it's theoretical possible an instant appeal of a DS ban will succeed. Nil Einne (talk) 12:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse AP2 Topic ban. But I don't know if American Politics topic ban covers discussion at Talk:Parler. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  It definitely does, and the discussion at issue was entirely about the presence of antisemitism and other far-right content on the platform. There's been an AP2 notice on the talk page for some time now. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Good to know, thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• This [77] is completely bonkers.

1. Ranting about Ted Cruz attacking Jack Dorsey (as if Cruz isn't your basic demagogue).
2. Something about frozen peaches, I'm not really sure.
3. Yet again ranting about the ledes.
4. "I "bludgeoned" the Talk page to try to introduce a little fresh air into the stuffy room. To tell you the truth it's a pleasure to speak freely. If they ban me, fine. So be it."
5. "Let them tell me that they admit wrongdoing for trying to make Wikipedia into a partisan screed. Then I can admit wrongdoing for "bludgeoning" the page"

I have no words left to describe it. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

You have a strong fixation on seeing any "opponents" sanctioned. You've already been warned before so let me restate that comments such as "as if Cruz isn't your basic demagogue" is a BLP infraction and calling other editors "bonkers" is a NPA violation.--MONGO (talk) 16:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

First: you're wrong. Second: I did not say the editor is bonkers, I said the comment (which I linked) is bonkers. Third: as a statement of opinion regarding "a political leader who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument" I believe I'm on pretty safe ground here. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

You really do need to be a lot more careful with BLP issues. Even here calling people white supremacists is not great. PackMecEng (talk) 16:55, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I Hate Accounts, no, you're wrong. You best read up on BLP as it applies everywhere and referring to those who are under the BLP covenant here as "demagogue" in your own voice is a BLP violation.--MONGO (talk) 17:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

As an editor mostly uninvolved in this subject (I haven't edited the article, but I do live in the US and make posts online) I will echo the sentiment that this might not be a great series of posts. In an AN/I thread about a political argument you were involved in, I'm not sure that posting stuff like "completely bonkers", "basic demagogue" and "frozen peaches" (what??) is a helpful approach. jp×g 09:16, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse AP2 Ban Bus Stop definitely has a bludgeoning style of debate (regurgitating ones' arguments and asking odd questions about that which causes discussions to go in circles) and while I don't edit many AP2-related pages, this comes up on the WP-space pages where AP2 factors come into play - BLP/N, Jimmy Wales' talk page, etc. policy pages, etc. Assessments above related to highly partisan editing and not using those discussions to try to come to consensus but continue to push a point are my experience, and reviewing the talk page of Parler shows the same problems (mind you, I see valid points raised on neutrality and tone but Bus Stop is going at it all wrong). --Masem (t) 16:34, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• Site ban now BS has just violated his TBAN on his talk page. This has been a long time coming. It's time to stop wasting community time and resources on this. SPECIFICO talk 16:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose site ban but a 1 week block including talk page might work nicely as a cool down period. I've looked over the Parlor lead. It clearly fails IMPARTIAL but the general editorial atmosphere there is too toxic to bother with. I understand why an editor would be pissed. It also doesn't help that IHateAccouts seems to be campaigning for action against Bus Stop [[78]]. Clearly Bus Stop's emotions are up. Let them come back when they calm down a bit. Springee (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  Not "campaigning". Commiserating with someone else who has had to deal with Bus Stop's Sealioning. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) IHateAccounts is fairly new to the project and has been to an extent using me as a sounding board to get a feel for the norms of the project (when to raise an issue at a noticeboard, when to let it go, etc.) Given the topic areas we both edit in, it's a tough place to dive in, and I think they've been wise to do what they're doing rather than just barging in headfirst at noticeboards etc. where there are a lot of "unwritten rules". IHA is perfectly aware that I am WP:INVOLVED with Bus stop and not going to take action with respect to them, and their comments on my talk page are not asking me to take action. They've primarily been using my talk page to get feedback on their concerns, which I think should be encouraged, as well as to vent a little bit on what has been an extremely frustrating experience on the talk page of the article. It should be noted, while we are on the subject of people campaigning for action, that you have seemed to be doing some of the same with respect to IHA, based on your recent comments at their talk page, followup at valereee's talk page, and now here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  My comments on their talk page and later on Valereee's talk page were related to their civility issues. The original post to their page was in reply to interacting with them on other discussion sections. I'm not the only editor who has noted their civility standards. Springee (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  GW, IHateAccounts is not fairly new as they were around long enough to IP hop for some time before they created this account. It's nice they did create an account as now its easier to make sure they are compliant with our policies.--MONGO (talk) 17:16, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  I am quite familiar with IHateAccounts' editing as an IP; I was one of the people who encouraged them to create an account while also trying to remind our editors that there is no requirement one do so. I was including their time as an IP editor when describing them as "fairly new". GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  Super! I knew that too! Whats the cutoff for no longer being "fairly new"?--MONGO (talk) 17:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  I don't know, a year or so? GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  Excellent. Thats a nice long training period.--MONGO (talk) 19:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  Springee, it should be abundantly clear by now that this discussion is no longer about recent behavior at one article. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  This. I may have some agreements in where Bus Stop is taking his arguments in terms of the tendency for articles in that area of the political spectrum to have poor NPOV wording and tone and where its hard to get traction with the editors that heavily edit them, but the way Bus Stop has argued for that throughout several cases is bludgeoning and the fact that they turned right around after been AP2 banned to add more AP2 shows a bit of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which is common to numerous past discussions. This is more disruptive than helpful at this point. --Masem (t) 18:24, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  I am inclined to agree with this comment; the actual political merit of the arguments in question seems like a distant issue from the objectionable way in which they've been prosecuted, which is obviously detrimental to the encyclopedia. jp×g 09:20, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse AP2 ban as per Beyond My Ken's concerns. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• I oppose sanctions for violating the topic ban at this time. Re the suggestions here that Bus stop is violating his topic ban in his comments here and on his page: I disagree. To be topic banned from a major area is a shock. When users are blocked, we tend to tolerate venting and angry comments about the block — I know I do — and the same principle should apply to topic bans. I won't sanction Bus stop for anything he has said in this thread or on his page so far, and I hope nobody else does either. If he were to post a lot of drawn-out commentary/discussion infringing on the AP area, instead of appealing the ban, that would be a different situation. But we're not there yet. And, Springee, I see your point, but we don't do "cooldown blocks". Bishonen | tålk 17:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC).

  I just wanted to +1 this. Although I was surprised to see Bus stop continue the exact line of argument that led to this topic ban, we do usually allow a little leeway to editors venting a bit about a major sanction. If it continues for a protracted period of time or they continue on editing AP2 articles/their talk pages as if there was no topic ban, that would be a different story, but I don't think an immediate sanction would do anyone any good here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  That seems reasonable. It's like the Acela. If we are on the right track, another one will come along fast enough. SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  Gotta love a good train metaphor. :) ―Mandruss ☎ 17:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Masem, you write I may have some agreements in where Bus Stop is taking his arguments in terms of the tendency for articles in that area of the political spectrum to have poor NPOV wording and tone and where its hard to get traction with the editors that heavily edit them, but the way Bus Stop has argued for that throughout several cases is bludgeoning and the fact that they turned right around after been AP2 banned to add more AP2 shows a bit of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which is common to numerous past discussions. First of all nice sentence. I couldn't have written a longer sentence myself. Did I bludgeon the Talk page of BitChute? I don't think so. A light bulb went off in my head when, subsequent to the BitChute experience, I saw something very similar happening at Parler. The parallels were striking: another second-tier social media article with everything but the kitchen sink in the way of criticism in the lede. I'm not sure what "several cases" you have in mind, Masem. But the immediate precedent and the case I had in mind in my argumentation on the Parler Talk page was the BitChute article. I wanted to stem the trend. Bus stop (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

While I disagree with you about a lot, I don't think that you're wrong about everything. That said, you really ought to consider opting out of these huge endless arguments with people who are obviously never going to agree with you. I mean, right now, you are on AN/I, in a thread where you have just been topic-banned for doing this, posting about the exact same thing! I exhort you to relax for a while. The first time I saw your posts on a talk page, it was in a similarly ill-advised jousting match on Jimbo's talk page, which went on for kilobytes, to absolutely no productive end. It's one thing to argue for NPOV; it's another thing entirely to spill gallons of ink on talk pages when consensus is clearly not in favor of your changes. jp×g 09:06, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

JPxG—the much ballyhooed policy of WP:NPOV does not mean much if the Wikipedia community fails to endorse it. I think Wikipedia has some principles and practices that should only be altered after considerable discussion. Pertaining to the ledes of articles on social media sites, such a discussion has not taken place, to my knowledge. There should not be 2 different standards for the first and biggest social media sites and those smaller social media sites which have sprung up—call them second-tier sites—in response to users being banned from the first and biggest social media sites. I've been here long enough to recognize principles that permeate the project. We do not write glowing ledes about the first and biggest social media sites and then throw every negative piece of commentary that is reliably-sourced into the ledes of articles on second-tier social media sites. That is putting one's finger on the scale and therefore, in my opinion, a violation of WP:NPOV. I am guilty of "bludgeoning". I can admit to that. But I am also explaining to you and others why I have argued vociferously on the Parler Talk page. I am addressing a very real problem. I should not be penalized for doing so. I would never think to write in the lede of the BitChute article that The Southern Poverty Law Center has said the site hosts "hate-fueled material" yet that is what an administrator is doing here. I only discovered that moments ago; it has no bearing on why I "bludgeoned" the Parler article. Let's all be honest about our roles. We have our opinions. What is called for, in my opinion, is an earnest discussion about how WP:NPOV applies to articles on social media articles, specifically the ledes of those articles. We can't have 2 standards in place. I contend we presently have a de facto dual standard in place—one for the big companies and another for the small companies. Bus stop (talk) 22:54, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I would be happy to address this comment if others think it is appropriate and worth discussing. However, I am extremely hesitant to do so here/with you since it seems to be largely agreed that you are violating the topic ban that was just placed. Although I agree with those who think people should be given a bit of leeway as they adjust to a new restriction, that patience usually wears a bit thin if the person continues to behave as though the ban was not in place, and I don't intend to encourage such violations or appear to be baiting you into a sanction by engaging you in the discussion. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:02, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I clearly agree with Bus stop for those that know what I have argued on other places like NPOV/N and the like, but to Bus stop, the issue is not that you're taking this point, but your are repeating the same arguments over and over again, adding rabbit trails to the arguments that are ongoing that editors have to stop and address, and basically not keeping a focused discussion on the matter at hand. Once in a while topics can get out of hand, but this has seemed to be a common problem in the discussions that you have been in that I've been a part of as well, as also part of the diffs shown in this thread. Even here, you're trying to point out the logic of the NPOV issues on articles, but the focus here is your behavior and style of debate; what the topic area is or concerns are not relevant here (particularly when you're trying to argue that you feel you are correct and thus justifying your behavior that way - that's never a good starting point). Focus on why there's a topic ban, and it is not because you are arguing for a more neutral take on these articles, it is because the way you present debate on these articles is getting in the way of practical discussion. --Masem (t) 23:15, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Blocked editor Abbas Kwarbai threatening Velella

• Abbas Kwarbai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've been checking Abbas Kwarbai's talk page every once in a while, and while they've been incredibly frustrated with the circumstances of some of their articles being speedily deleted, there are some wildly inappropriate messages being left on their talk page being addressed to Velella.

Diffs

Diffs have been revdeled by Kinu.

A later additional comment in response to their denied unblock request. It already veers into WP:NPA territory, but Velella being referred to as an illiterate Wikipedia editor and having allegedly made an evil act are, all things considered, tame. A specific section dedicated to Velella. More attacks on Velella, saying [they] don't deserve to be admin because [they] are not neutral but full of selfish and blunders. At this point, I left a comment saying that they should lay off of the personal attacks. Threats of violence made. They claim they would use all possible ritual [sic] to brutally attack [Velella], and ends end their tirade with: I will follow you through your dream and kill [them] you.

Recommendation

No one deserves to receive that kind of abuse on here (even if the threats are being directed to a cnidarian). At this point I think a revocation of talk page access or a site ban would be needed. If admins see any possible redemption that will work, though with Abbas' ire that may need to be considered a long time from now. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 09:00, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Many thanks Tenryuu for your report. I was about to report it here myself but you beat me to the draw. It quite made my little blue tentacles quiver. I think blocking of talk page access to all in this sock farm would be the appropriate solution.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   09:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I've revoked talk page access and removed the offending WP:NPA violations. Clearly that is the least that should happen here. --Kinu ^t/_c 09:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the swift action. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 09:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I have also revdeled the last of the diffs posted above along with this one. --Kinu ^t/_c 09:25, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Cunard Afd Practices

Hi, I want to make a complaint about User:Cunard and they’re series of behaviours at Afd, specifically the mass dumping of reams of text. I don’t normally complain about an editor. I think this is my first time. I think I have reached my limit. This after two years looking at this. I stopped taking part any of Afds that Cunard has been at. About a year ago, they’re was a VPN article, which is a dog of a company. Now we have an article, that people will assume is good, even though they were at absolute bottom of the ranking, about 3500 down the list. That was the limit at the time. This is absolute limit. I think it is simply unacceptable to dump huge blocks of text in this manner. The most recent example I came across is a Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zocdoc. I don’t think Cunard really cares of about Afd. I suspect his whole purpose is to ensure the article is kept, even at the expense of destroying the whole conversation. Looking at Zocdoc article.

advertisement.

It an advertisement. So they’re posting anything to stop the conversation, assuming folk are going to put off reading it because there is 16k of text here. That would take more than 10 hours of work if it was article being created. Instead he/she has copied it wholesale out of the website, which is itself a violation of copyright. Nobody wants to read this text. If is effectively a stop on the discussion. This is another example. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conrad Bangkok. Not a single one of these references are valid. More so, there is 39 of these hotels, so in effect this is an attempt to break the Afd. It has chilling effect on new Afd participants, who look at it, and crap out. I know that for a fact. It has a chilling effect on established editors, because it takes so long to work through the text and determine if it valid and often it is not. When the Afd is closed, the closer isn’t reading the text either, so it breaking the close function. scope_creep^Talk 09:48, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• I too have found the gigantic walls of text to be offputting, and anyone habitually !voting delete with comments of such extreme length would have been blocked or topic banned ages ago. But is there anything stopping you from just ignoring it, scrolling to the bottom, and putting in a vote of your own? It's not like anyone is forcing you to read through it, and it's not as though you'd be missing anything of value by ignoring it. It's basically Wikipedia lorem ipsum. Reyk _YO! 10:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I removed the quote blocks from two open AfDs: having 10K of quotes is problematic for copyright reasons, and didn't really add anything. However, these were pre-hatted, so took up little space in reading mode (they were annoying in editing mode). The addition of lots of sources to AfDs is what we expect editors to do, so I see no problem there (assuming they are good sources, which I haven't checked). Fram (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

They never are though, that's the thing. It's inevitably just a grab-bag of advertisements, blog posts, press releases, and marketing churn. Good point about the excessive quotations being potentially a copyvio problem too. Reyk _YO! 11:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• July 2020 ANI for same issue —valereee (talk) 11:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Which seemed to be just as baseless. Nfitz (talk) 22:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• Bizzare to see this complaint. For over 10 years I recall being stunned by the quality & quantity of hard to find RSs Cunnard brings to AfD's. As Fram says, it's expected from good editors, though none seem to do it quite as well as Cunnard. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:16, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

No one is saying he/she is not doing good work in other areas, but this is ridiculous and its errant behaviour and disruptive. scope_creep^Talk 12:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

It is the equivalent of reference-bombing an article to mask the overall weaknesses of the sources. I doubt many closing administrators take the text walls seriously. ValarianB (talk) 13:10, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Kudos to Cunard for their efforts. Consider the Zocdoc AfD, which is the basis of the complaint. First notice that the AfD had to be relisted because there were zero valid responses during the first round. Cunard then stepped up to do what no-one else would volunteer for and their input is outstanding. For example, they list an NYT source that seems to really hit the spot in demonstrating notability. And notice that they don't just give a raw URL which might hit the paywall but go the extra mile by providing an archive link. This is quality work and Cunard should be congratulated on their diligence.

The OP complains that they have to read this material. This is an absurd complaint because, per WP:BEFORE, a nominator is supposed to conduct such a detailed source search before they waste our time with an inaccurate nomination. If the OP is failing to do this work and can't even be bothered to look through the sources when they are presented on a plate, then they are not doing due diligence. A boomerang should be considered.

Andrew🐉(talk) 13:21, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Oh for goodness sake. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conrad Bangkok and look at the !votes.

• 11:19 - User:scope_creep points out that most of the sources are press releases and similar.
• 11:44 - User:Andrew Davidson votes "Keep" for no reason other than someone quotes an essay. No rebuttal of the sources.
• 12:02 - User:FeydHuxtable votes "Keep", saying "highly notable hotel as ably demonstrated by Cunard".

• This nonsense is never going to end, is it? Black Kite (talk) 13:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• What the nay-sayers seem to be saying is that, if you list sources it's bad, and if you don't list sources, it's bad too. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• No what the people who have deal with cunards wall of useless texts is that A)if you post sources to refute notability, they should be good, not a bunch of regurgitated PR crap scraped from a Google search. B)if you are going to just vote keep you should actually address the core concern, not rules lawyer over reference to essays, c)if you are going to vote 'keep as per list of crap' you should address the concerns with that crap. Since as black kite has demonstrated it is impossible to get editors to do this, ideally people closing the diacussion would rightly disregard such arguments. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

(EC) AFAICT, no one is saying that. What they are saying is that listing bad or crap sources is bad. Note I make no personal comment on whether any of the sources are bad/crap sources. I simply read what others said and tried understand what they were saying. Editors may disagree, perhaps strongly, on whether the sources are bad or crap, while still understanding (and probably agreeing) on the overall point. (I.E. that just because someone listed URLs doesn't mean these are useful reliable secondary sources that demonstrate meeting WP:GNG.) I can see why there may be a problem if you couldn't understand the point Black Kite and others seemed to be making, rather than simply disagreeing with their view of the sources. Nil Einne (talk) 14:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Christ. This is the Wikipedia equivalent of technobabble. Nothing actionable about it, unfortunately, but I certainly don't agree with Andrew on a boomerang. Seriously, we need to stop throwing rocks at people for bringing legitimate concerns up to ANI.--WaltCip-(talk) 13:41, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• I agree with WaltCip that this is a valid issue to bring up at ANI. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be actionable in the (looks to be unlikely) case we were able to develop consensus; the most productive editor can also be very disruptive. Anything that other experienced, well-intentioned editors are finding disruptive enough to bring two cases to ANI in four months is maybe at least worth making clear to Cunard that this is being seen as disruptive and they should try to avoid 1. posting walls of text 2. quoting carelessly collected sources 3. including copyvio to AfDs. —valereee (talk) 14:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Cunard does legwork that we want people to do for an AfD, finding what sources exist. It was a problem when he took up a massive amount of space in the discussion. Now that nearly all of the content is hatted, I have no issue whatsoever with the practice. Yes, Cunard always goes for keep ... and is about the only one of the always-keepers that actually backs up that opinion with sourcing. Sometimes those sources are misguided, but often they're not. Looking at ZocDoc AfD, I see NY Times, Wall Street Journal, journal articles, etc. Those aren't garbage. Yes, you're free to respond/challenge those sources and it's entirely possible they don't constitute notability (I haven't looked closely at them yet), but these aren't self-published press releases/spam. They're the kind of thing that anyone would find if they set out looking for sourcing, and which you should expect to have to counter if you're arguing to delete. We have plenty of people who fill AfD with baseless keep (or delete) !votes based on handwaves to sources or personal interpretations of notability with no effort whatsoever. The problem is not someone who does the research. The copyvio claim is IMO a big stretch, and I'm surprised anyone is willing to act on it without finding consensus that including a limited quote, with attribution, is a copyright violation (or that including multiple quotes from multiple sources for some reason makes it worse). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I don't call e.g. a 268 word quote a "limited quote" (see the first quote I removed here, it's about 1/4th of the full article. In the second AfD I pruned, the first quote was 198 words[79]. The Brownlee quote was 249 words, from a 590 word article. That's not a "limited quote" at all, that's excessive. And yes, adding more and more quotes makes it less and less defensible to claim fair use and brings it closer to being a copyright violation. (Note that I have only removed these from the two most recent AfDs, but the practice can be found in many older ones, like a 360-word quote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carmel Art Association, many long quotes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Street Medicine Institute... Regularly adding 10kb+ of quotes to AfDs is not an acceptable practice. Fram (talk) 15:58, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
    • From where are you getting the idea that 268 words, 1/4 of a work, or 249 out of 590 words, are excessive? Lev¡vich 16:30, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
      • If I would write an article and someone would copy 1/4 or 1/3rd of it, not even to comment on the quote (e.g. criticising what I wrote or praising the prose), but simply to strengthen a point they are making, then I would consider this as clearly excessive. When someone routinely does this, even more so. There is no hard-and-fast rule for this, ut if 1/4th isn't excessive to you, then what is? Anyway, looking online gives rules of thumb like "max 300 words from a book-length work", or "best at the most 10-20% for a short work". Fram (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
        • It doesn't matter what you would consider or what I would consider. Neither of us are experts or authorities on copyright law. You are expressing personal views/assumptions/results of online research, none of which make a good basis for claims about copyright law. In other words, if you don't know what the rules are... Lev¡vich 17:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
          • There's so much wrong with that response... For starters, there is no hard-and-fast rule, that's the main issue with fair use application. Wikipedia has historically treated this much stricter than required by law, see e.g. our fair use rules for images which don't even allow such images on an article talk page even if you would discuss it, nor in a draft article. And then, when I do try to find some outside guidance, from things like Stanford Uni, it still isn't acceptable and even those aren't a "good basis". I would like to see you propose an alternative then. Would quoting 99% of a copyrighted book (with attribution) be acceptable to you? 75%? 50%? 25%? Where and how do you draw the line? Or are you proposing not drawing a line at all and letting people quote as much as they like, as long as they use quote marks and attribution? That won't fly. We have to draw a line somewhere, and posting more than 1/4 of a work is generally (and by me) considered excessive (just like posting many long quotes is more excessive than just posting one, as there is less and less need to post additional quotes, so less and less justification of "fair use"). If you can't suggest some better alternative, if you can't actually indicate what the rules are and what is or isn't acceptable then, then I will continue with that rule of thumb. Fram (talk) 09:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

            You're making up rules because you think you have to make up rules. You don't have to make up rules. We don't need a rule about how much quoting is too much quoting in an AFD discussion. We don't have to draw a line anywhere. You're inventing a problem that doesn't exist. No one in the history of Wikipedia has every complained that their copyrighted work was being quoted too much in AFD discussions. It's just a ridiculous made-up thing to be worrying about. Lev¡vich 02:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

            • Actually, it is policy. It is scattered over multiple pages, but we have things like "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used [...] Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited."(WP:NFCCEG). Lower on the same page: "Unacceptable use: Excessively long copyrighted excerpts.". Note also "The use of non-free content on Wikipedia is therefore subject to purposely stricter standards than those laid down in U.S. copyright law." There is no definition of what is "brief" and what is "excessive", but the distinction is a basis of our (or any) fair use policy, and some cut-off is needed. That doesn't mean that my cutoff is correct or undisputable, of course not, but to simply reject that any cutoff is needed is going against what is required in our policies, and not simply "a problem that doesn't exist" or "a ridiculous made-up thing". Fram (talk) 08:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

              I started out by asking you the basis for your claim that 268 words, 1/4 of a work, or 249 out of 590 words, are excessive within the meaning of our policies and/or copyright law. In your responses, you have admitted multiple times that "excessive" is not defined in either our policies or copyright law (neither is "extensive", "brief", or other such descriptors of quantity). Thus, you have no basis for claiming that 268 words, 1/4 of a work, or 249 out of 590 words, are excessive; you are quite literally making up the "rule" that those quantities are too much. Thus, you have no basis for claiming it's a copyright violation, and thus no basis for removing the quotes under WP:TPO. As such, I have restored the quotes. If you think we should have a rule that copying 268 words, 1/4 of a work, or 249 out of 590 words, or any fixed word count or proportion, are excessive under WP:NFCC, propose the change to NFCC. But please do not enforce rules that you have just invented (e.g., that 268 words, 1/4 of a work, or 249 out of 590 words, are "excessive" under NFCC). Lev¡vich 16:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• I'm surprised people are complaining about him listing coverage it gets, and even quoting the relevant parts so you don't have to click on each one to go and read it. This is rather helpful in an AFD. And it doesn't violate copyright laws to quote something for this purpose, this clearly fair usage, it not in the main article just in a deletion discussion. Dream Focus 16:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Uh, "quoting the relevant parts so you don't have to click on each one to go and read it." is definitely not a fair use defense. That's it is in an AfD and not in an article also doesn't make it better, e.g. fair use images are only allowed in articles and not anywhere else, including in AfDs. Fram (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• Listing sources and quotes is helpful (I don't agree the quoting is copyvio). The ZocDoc AFD is a bad example for this: the sources Cunard listed include NYT and WaPo; while I quibble about one or two sources on Cunard's list there, overall they seem solid. Conrad Bangkok is a bit more difficult to parse: lots of travel guides and such, which I don't think make for good sources. Still, if we cover hotels (and we do), travel guides and hotel reviews are going to be sources for those articles, just like book reviews are sources for articles about books. I think both of Cunard's lists would have been stronger if they had 5 items instead of 10, and that would be my big suggestion to Cunard: do lists of 3 or 5 instead of 10. If you're listing NYT and WaPo, don't list things like Entrepreneur and NYObserver: they actually weaken rather than strengthen the list. But, this isn't ANI-worthy. Yes, there are problems with churnalism and promo articles surviving AFDs, but these two are bad examples (better examples: bagelry, toy store, lawyer), and I think !votes without sources and quotes are a much bigger problem than someone !voting with "too many" sources and quotes. We should encourage sources and quotes at AFD, not discourage it. Lev¡vich 17:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I don't agree the quoting is copyvio. Well, to quote you: It doesn't matter what you would consider. Hold yourself to the same standard. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

    No evidence has been presented supporting the copyvio claim. Better? Lev¡vich 17:42, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

    • • For the sake of not pressing it further. Sure. Mr rnddude (talk) 18:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• What reams of text, User:scope_creep? I see a list of references. I feel guilty now for just providing links, instead of such well formatted lists of references. Personally, I'd be more concerned by the first delete vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conrad Bangkok, that once again, did 7 delete votes in 7 minutes, which quite clearly means they did not do the required due diligence. I'm also concerned you aren't doing enough WP:BEFORE nominating. Nfitz (talk) 18:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Fram has removed the quote walls, you'll have to check page history. (E.g. this) Mr rnddude (talk) 18:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Ah, I see. But boxed. Not sure they needed to be removed - small amounts of quoted text should run afoul of copyright - though perhaps some were a bit long - not quite sure where that line is. At the same time - I don't even see anyone posting on Cunard's talk page in month, and only a single post there since summer! Has User:scope_creep tried to discuss this before coming here? Cunard in the past has been dragged to ANI (see WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1042#User:Cunard, rather unnecessarily in my view, and now has added quotes to demonstrate the RS. And now there's complaints about that. To me, this looks more like an attempt to bully an editor that one doesn't agree with, than anything real. Nfitz (talk) 18:59, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• First of all, I find User:Cunard to be one of the single best contributors to AfD. I find that he makes it really really easy for me to evaluate sources. He provides great detail and finds sources that I can't find even after looking for 10+ minutes. Secondly, in the worst case, just hat it. Third, I'm not a lawyer, but I do teach copyright law as a part of my job. With my understanding of fair use, it is really really unlikely that this wouldn't count as fair use. Really. If copied onto a commercial site (which our licence allows) and if indexed in a way that made it so that one could easily find the quote when looking for the article? Then it *might* get debatable and I'd recommend to anyone who asked me to contact a lawyer. In any case, I see no problem with what he posted. I *do* see a problem with Fram's reversion. He shouldn't be editing someone else's text. If he really thinks there is a copyright problem, he should be asking for it to be removed from the history too I should think. There is a whole template and set of directions for dealing with copyright issues. See [80]Hobit (talk) 00:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Removing copyright violations / excessive fair use without taking further action is often done. Yes, one can go the extra mile and ask for revdel of the revisions, but in this (and many other) cases that would be overkill. People removing fair use images from pages where they aren't allowed usually don't bother with revdel and so on either. As for the fair use, remember that we are and have always been way more strict than what may be necessary by law. Fram (talk) 09:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Images and text are two unrelated things. Images aren't allowed unless you can prove its necessary, and reduced to be as low quality as possible, this is for server load reasons. There is nothing wrong with quoting parts of a news article in a deletion discussion to prove it gives coverage to something. Dream Focus 12:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
      • "For server load reasons"? So somehow free images don't produce server load issues, but fair use one do? That sounds rather unlikely, anything to back up your claim? Fram (talk) 12:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
      • You can check this at WP:FILESIZE, your claim is totally wrong. Fram (talk) 12:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
        • Huh, I stand corrected. Exception: If the image is copyrighted and used under fair use, the uploaded image must be as low-resolution as possible consistent with its fair-use rationale, to prevent use of Wikipedia's copy as a substitute for the original work. Anyway, as far as the text goes https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html explains it quite well. So you need to undo your incorrect removal of text. Dream Focus 15:29, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
          • That link doesn't indicate that my removals were correct or incorrect, it basically boils down to "it depends" and "every judge can decide on their own" (no, this is not a legal threat, I wouldn't start a legal case over extremely blatant copyright violations, never mind over these good-faith borderline cases, and I doubt anyone else would). There is no fixed, easy-to-use rule, that's why you can find all kinds of advice in books and online (from good sources); but if they do give numerical values, then 10-20% or 300-400 words (whichever is less) seems to be often used as a rule of thumb. The quotefarms I removed violated this at least in part. See also Masem's comment below, who is kind of an in-house copyright expert (together with User:Diannaa and some others I now forget, User:MER-C probably as well). Fram (talk) 16:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• For notability AFDs I would always take at least 15 minutes to analyse the article and its possible references – sometimes I take far longer. Now, I realise some people just throw in a !vote one way or another but I hope, for substantial articles, those swaying the final close will have done considerable work. Therefore "it takes so long to work through the text and determine if it valid and often it is not" puzzles me. Surely anyone nominating or supporting deletion will have gone through such references already and will know which are unsuitable in their view. You do not need to study them all over again. For some matters other than notability, such as promotionalism, it may be possible to take a view without studying large numbers of references and you can quickly skip over any suggested list of references. An invalid deletion harms the encyclopedia and can sometimes be devastating for editors who have put in hours of work creating it. It is not something that should be done in a hurry. I welcome Cunard's work and have found it helpful on AFDs I have tackled. Thincat (talk) 09:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• This doesn't look as though it is going anywhere. Discussion on Afd protocol are really redundant, as everybody is different. I read very fast and there is various shortcuts you can employ to shorten the time further, so a function of time to evaluate Afd isn't particularly valuable. There is no qualitative comparison that can be made between two editors. I stick to one type of Afd, on the whole, so its even further different. I see a lot of folk supporting Cunard, he is an excellent editor, but this isn't the first time this has been reported, which I didn't know. So there is dissatisfaction, obviously various groups. If it not addressed, I will need to go further. scope_creep^Talk 12:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
  • If you don't get what you want, you will "need to go further" and repeat this same thing again when you think the random group of editors to notice and comment might agree with you? He has done nothing wrong, and should not be discouraged from helping people sort through the evidence that an article meets the notability standards. Dream Focus 12:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
    • That depends. Sometimes his sources are useful. sometimes they are not great. If they could be useful all the time, there'd be no issues. And certainly, people block !voting "Keep" and quoting sources that aren't any good is a problem. Black Kite (talk) 15:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• I think the issue is the excessive quoting. Providing N sources at an AFD when challenged (where they then are discussed if they are good or bad) is absolutely fine, and should be part of an AFD process. But there is no need for the large quotes from those sources as well, as that does veer on the copyright/fair use problem - this is part of our WP:NFC policy. Let the !voters review and make comments and if a specific source becomes the subject of debate, brief quotes can be used then but they are almost certainly not needed upfront when providing the sources (as in the Zocdoc AFD). But as for dumping a list of sources they found in AFD? Great. It would be nice if they had a bit more awareness of what are poor sources like press releases and the like that would be dismissed immediately for notability concerns, but that itself is less an ANI than the large quotes leaning into copyright. --Masem (t) 15:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• I just voted on the Conrad Bangkok article. There's really two issues I have had with Cunard over the years: Not all of the coverage that's found passes WP:GNG even though it's frequently presented as such, and the large blocks of text which disrupt the process generally. The first isn't a problem as long as you have quality participants at the AfD. Often a string of "keep, there are sources" which follow without doing the critical work, and there have been a couple articles kept which really should have been deleted because of it - for instance, I'm noting that the travel reviews of the hotel at the AfD aren't suitable for determining notability, though enough sources exist in that article where it's not a problem. The second problem is on Cunard to take to heart - providing a list of sources with links is great, and identifying the WP:THREE best sources for WP:GNG purposes is even better, as opposed to the long quotes of text, which can be mildly disruptive at times and a possible copyright issue as others have noted above. I think if Cunard can agree to add sources in list form and only use limited, select quotes where a source may not be easily accessible online, it would be an additional benefit to the encyclopaedia, but there's nothing specifically sanctionable here. SportingFlyer T·C 21:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• Just gonna pile on to say that providing one good source trumps multiple mediocre sources. If you are going to the trouble of finding these sources it would be useful to at least highlight the best ones instead of dumping them all in indiscriminately. This just creates extra work for others and I can see how editors would find it disruptive. I have a bigger concern with the pile on !votes from editors pushing quantity over quality. AIRcorn (talk) 23:13, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• It seems apparent that Cunard is already being quite selective in the sources that they list. Consider the OP's case of Zocdoc, for example. When I use a plain Google search for this then the top ten results are:

1. Zocdoc – the company's own website
2. Glassdoor – employee feedback
3. Wikipedia – our article
4. Google Play – the Android app
5. App Store – the iOS app
6. The Motley Fool – investment advice
7. Twitter – their social media
8. Wolff Olins – a branding case study
9. Harvard Business School – a student case study
10. Instagram – more social media

Now there's lots of good detail in these hits and Google will have its reasons for putting them at the top of the list. But they might not be well-accepted at AfD and notice that Cunard does not include any of them in his list. So, Aircorn's criticism fails to appreciate the extent to which Cunard is already doing what they are suggesting. I've produced source lists like Cunard's and it's a significant effort to find, filter and format the results. If people think they can do better then they are welcome to try but I'm not seeing much competition. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Excellent analyses Colonel. Our buddy NA1K sometimes makes source lists of similar quality, can't think of anyone else. About the only thing Cunard might want to take from this discussion it to maybe cut back a bit on the quotes. Otherwise, their energy & sound judgment are an exemplar to less skilled editors like myself and perhaps some others here. FeydHuxtable (talk) 10:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• I had a discussion with Cunard about a particular AfD some time back, where I offered some advice that was taken in the right spirit. In the specific case of Conrad Bangkok, one thing I don't like is when people !vote "keep" at an AfD without improving the article, simply hoping that somebody will do the work, which makes the closure something of a pyrrhic victory. I would much prefer people took the sources they found and expanded the article with them, rather than simply listing them at the AfD. It's all well and good for assessing consensus, but it doesn't directly help the reader who won't see it. I realise I do this as well because the article is something I don't know much about or don't have confidence in editing it to a sufficient standard, but I do so with the knowledge that if the AfD closes as "delete" because I didn't put the work in, then that's tough luck and I have to endorse the consensus given. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:50, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot to be said for that view Ritchie. But it works best if it's a two way thing. I.e. if editors who has previously nomned or voted delete are willing to recognise the WP:Hey. Back when I was an ARS reg I'd often totally re-write an article up for deletion, and many of these articles remain largely untouched 10-12 years later. What killed it for me was this AfD. War and conflict is the one area of human activity I best understand, so I was confident of a Keep after I spent several hours addressing the valid WP:Synth concerns & improving the article with top tier sources. But it was still deleted. Since the horror of that sunk in I've been loath to touch articles under attack at AfD. Not sure I could handle a repetition of that sort of rejection. FeydHuxtable (talk) 11:11, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. I have put a lot of effort into rescuing articles in the past but this is a thankless task. Either the nominators refuse to recognise the work that has been done or, if the article is kept, they sometimes claim the credit for getting the work done. This then encourages them to nominate more topics for deletion as a way of getting them improved. Rescuers are routinely burnt out by being taken advantage of in this way. For example, see Nicholson Baker's account The Charms of Wikipedia and note that they don't do that any more. Myself, I am now more sparing with my efforts too. And the good thing about putting detailed data and text into the AfD rather than the article is that it is unlikely to be deleted. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:30, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• It seems like the only thing controversial here is the box o' quotes, which although I don't think it's actually a fair use problem may be a NFCC problem. Unsure. That may merit a discussion at a different venue. But one thing this discussion made me realize is that while I've seen a Cunard quote dump probably hundreds of times now, and while I've gone through the sources linked therein, I don't think I've ever actually read the quotes. Because, y'know, context and judgment and whatnot. I assumed the quotes were to help people decide which sources to look into more, but I find you don't have to click on each one to go and read it actually a rather terrible outcome here, if that's what they're intended to do. We need people to see the sources for themselves whenever possible, to see the context of the quotes, the rest of the quotes, the source itself, etc. It sounds like the existence of Cunard quotes is an excuse for a lazy keep !vote. As I don't think they really do anything good, I'd be in favor of ditching in the quotes, but unless we can get definitive consensus that it's a NFC problem I still feel reluctant to support any sort of enforcement. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:29, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • As I mentioned above, they border on NFC problems. Obviously unlike images, we allow "non-free text" on non-mainspace, but this should still be considered in the NFC-like framework - is it supporting the constructive purpose of the encyclopedia, is it minimal use, etc. If one pulled a source in an AFD and quote a sentence that showed why per that source the topic was notable as part of their argument, that's fine. But the practice we're seeing here seems to be a semi-mechanical approach that does take too much of the original sources. Quote-dumping without explaining the purpose doesn't help (particularly as many above had said, better energy would be directed to explaining the value of each source or weeding out press releases from quality sources). It's not a red-flag COPYVIO warning, but it is a practice that strongly should be stopped as it is very much borderline. More selective use of smaller quotes and adding reasoning why a source was included would go a long way to help the AFD arguments to keep while avoiding copyright issues. --Masem (t) 15:43, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

    Note that Fram started a discussion about the COPYVIO question at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2020 November 19, which I think is a much better place to discuss that issue than ANI. Lev¡vich 17:16, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• The copyright issue needs to be separated from the behavioural issue. The initial issue that was raised here was behavioural, and is totally without merit. People are expected to provide evidence at AfD for their position, and Cunard does so. If you disagree then simply say why the sources provided do not meet notability guidelines, or ask in the discussion for the best sources to be identified if you don't feel like looking at them all. The copyright issue was raised later and is better discussed at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2020 November 19. I must add that I have had several instances where the nominators at discussions or others who are asking for deletion have asked me to provide quotes from sources that I have added, or even copies of the whole source, so this practice needs to be stopped if it is a copyright violation. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Providing a quote to support a request at AFD is reasonable. (Providing whole sources on the other hand should not be handled on WP, or at least, not the source text). The issue here which is partially behavior and partially copyright is blinding including quotes from a source dump. The source dump is "good" (this could be improved but nowhere close to a blockable issue), but quoting each article with that source dump is both a copyright issue as well as behavior (how does that help at AFD if that quote hasn't been requested?) --Masem (t) 18:47, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    • It helps me because then I don't have to click on the link or find the most relevant section. In any case, probably best to keep this discussion about behavior and have the copyright issues discussed at WP:CP. Hobit (talk) 21:55, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Uesr:Mulman82

Please delete remove the following edits by Mulman82 (talk · contribs · central auth · count · email) who is taking deletion discussions personally and responding with vague threats of violence, accusation of pedophilia and homophobic slurs.

• Delaware Black Foxes
• My user page (not sure how to show diff for page creation)

Ytoyoda (talk) 14:16, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I deleted your User page, as the only edits were those edits, and revdel'd the edit summaries on the Delaware Black Foxes page. I've also blocked the user for a month for those gross attacks, as they were recently blocked for 2 weeks for sockpuppetry. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:26, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Outside of the user issue concerns, I've contested the prod; please take to AfD. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

TPA removal

2600:1001:B10C:2557:80A6:46FB:C398:BFB6 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) 2600:1001:B100:0:0:0:0:0/42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log) Please remove TPA. Amongst other things:

• legal threats
• using admin templates
• duplicating article content
• more legal threats

Victor Schmidt (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Gah. It's a /42 and it expires tomorrow, so it might be best if a CU looks at it. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• It doesn't expire until January 18. However, pinging @TonyBallioni: as the blocking admin/CU. Black Kite (talk) 19:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Pretty sure that wasn’t the target, but I went ahead and extended it for a year without TPA. If I recall there were multiple issues on the range and if we’re having disruption that’s ongoing without any massive collateral extending it works. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:50, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

User adding unsourced content to Donald B. Gillies and reverting edits which remove it

A user (SystemBuilder) has been adding unsourced content to Donald B. Gillies. Example diff. I have asked them to stop as per WP:CHALLENGE as their material is likely to be challenged. They then posted a rather rude message on my talk page saying that he was his dad and there are no sources to support their material. I then said that this material shouldn't be added at all. To avoid 3RR sanctions, I have stopped reverting their edits and would appreciate if someone else would get involved. Eyebeller (talk) 19:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I am adding references. Please don't be such a dick, who do you think wrote 100% of that article to begin with? SystemBuilder (talk) 20:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

SystemBuilder, the references you have added were only for one section; the challenged material is still unsourced. I have reverted your edits again; please don't edit war, especially not over content that, in its present form, violates WP:BLP. Best, Blablubbs ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Blablubbs, the subject appears to have been deceased since 1975, so it should be clarified that WP:BLP may not apply directly to this article. However, the edits do violate verifiability and no original research, and I have left the user a message explaining these policies as well as a warning about edit warring. Mz7 (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Mz7, whoops, my bad. Must be getting late here. Thanks for the correction. Blablubbs ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:17, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

"who do you think wrote 100% of that article to begin with?" Just gonna drop WP:OWN here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Edits by AndyCBaer

Can someone else please take a look at edits by User:AndyCBaer? Based on recent reverts and talk page discussions, they don't seem too interested in following rules. This edit summary suggests they'd like to report me, so I invite them to say what they see fit. Thanks, --Another Believer _(Talk) 01:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Drmies: Making you aware of this discussion because of your edit while I was writing the above comments. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I saw your edit summary and am not surprised. I think this editor is on a dangerous path. I saw their rude and combative comments, their fluffy and unencyclopedic edits--this is not going to go well. Drmies (talk) 01:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

(non admin comment) These ESs 1 2 trend towards WP:NLT, and suggest indifferent understanding of US copyright law. Narky Blert (talk) 05:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

That editor has never edited an article talk, nor until last night their own talk, which they didn't know how to sign. Possibly they didn't even realize talk pages existed? I've pointed them at the one for Odyssey III. —valereee (talk) 12:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I see User:EstateofTonyRosenthal (now blocked) may be related. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

User:AlsoWukai

I have previously raised my issue with this user at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wukai, as I thought it may have been appropriate, but it appears not to be an example of sockpuppetry. I'm repeating the text here to bring it to the attention of Wiki admin staff.

I recently edited Rashida Tlaib to make a small improvement to the grammar, as I believe that starting sentences with the word "but" does not fit the tone of Wikipedia articles. I also added a comma to help make the text more readable. User:AlsoWukai reverted the edit several days later, contravening the policy at Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary: "For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse." I have tried to discuss this matter at the Usertalk page: User_talk:AlsoWukai#Rashida_Tlaib. As the user has contravened the reversion policy, I reverted back to my original edit. Less than a day later, that edit has been reverted again, this time by User:Wukai, with the unhelpful tag "that's just, like, your opinion, man" (isn't this the kind of thing a teenager would write in high school, not a professional editor?). I don't think this is the kind of civilised discourse we are meant to be using on Wikipedia, nor is the tag placed by the associated account when editing their User_talk:AlsoWukai page - "get over it!" : https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAlsoWukai&type=revision&diff=988257002&oldid=988156294 Again, this has a rather hostile tone. In any case, User:AlsoWukai has reverted my edit unnecessarily twice, once with their current account of that name, and then using their older account, User:Wukai. The User:AlsoWukai page states "I am the user formerly known as User:Wukai. For unknown reasons I am no longer able to log into that account on my desktop or laptop." The same person also needlessly reverted my minor grammatical edit to Sirhan Sirhan a couple of years ago, which, again, was unwarranted. The latest addition to our discussion reads: "Your sense of the 'tone of Wikipedia' seems to be nothing more than a misguided aversion to beginning sentences with conjunctions. Please get over it." This user has had problems with edit warring before, it appears, and objects to the grammar employed by other users. The kind of hostile, casual language utilised by User:AlsoWukai/User:Wukai isn't helpful to Wikipedia, and I personally find it unpleasant, so I'm bringing this behaviour to the attention of Wikipedia administrators. --TrottieTrue (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

TrottieTrue, since the two accounts are openly connected, there doesn't appear to be any problem from a socking point of view.

With regard to the reverts, have I understood this correctly: you reverted each other a couple of times a week ago, Wukai used a dismissive edit summary, and they reverted you once a couple of years back? Is there anything else in the way of improper conduct?

From where I'm sitting, there's not anything that warrants administrative action here. While it would have been preferable for them to have discussed the sentence construction on the talk page rather than reverting you, they didn't press it after you reinstated your edit, and haven't touched the page in over a week. Unless there is a history of disruption that you haven't mentioned, we're not going to block someone for an errant revert or two with mildly unprofessional edit summaries.

We don't rule on content disputes on this board, so the question of whether or not it's better to use 'But' or 'However,' to start a sentence can't be resolved here. I would use the latter myself, but that's really something to discuss on article talk, or to look for guidance in the MOS about. GirthSummit _(blether) 06:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

As a former English major, "but" vs "however," is probably the sort of question that is unanswerable, or one that English majors debate endlessly. Is there anything in the WP:MOS? May I suggest, "on the other hand"? "Despite the forgoing," has a nice ring to it if it fits the context. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

In Scotland and Ireland, many people actually end a sentence with "but" in the same way you might end a sentence with a trailing "however", but. Cnbrb (talk) 08:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

O, tempora! O, mores! --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Gen. ii.6, KJV. Narky Blert (talk) 11:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra: surely these phrases are all covered (except for "on the other hand"} in WP:EDITORIAL as words to watch? Doug Weller talk 11:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Doug Weller, I was going to say the same thing. Starting that sentence with any of these is subtle editorializing. —valereee (talk) 11:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Girth_Summit The use of "but" or "however" to start a sentence wasn't really why I brought this issue to ANI. It seems to me that the tone of Wikipedia is that of an encyclopedia, in which "however" is preferable to "but" in starting a sentence. It just doesn't sound right to me on Wikipedia, having read and edited many other articles over the years. However (!), that isn't really the issue here. The user in question reverted the edit, contravening the policy at Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary. My edit did not make the article worse, and therefore did not need to be reverted. I reverted it back, and they then used their old account to revert again. A second reversion of an edit which doesn't make the article worse strikes me as being petty for the sake of it. I did not want to go into edit warring, so I decided to rewrite the article text in a different way, which also removed the "but" and added the comma I had inserted. That edit seems to have been left alone.

I did the same on Sirhan Sirhan recently, which the user had reverted for a similar reason. I also modified the text for that article in a way which avoided merely replacing "but" with "however" at the start of a sentence. On certain articles which Wukai is presumably watching, replacing "but" with "however" at the start of sentences seems to trigger the user reverting the edit.

At User_talk:Wukai#Starting sentences with conjunctions, I found a previous incident over the "but" vs "however" issue, in which Wukai had been outvoted. When I replied and pointed this out, Wukai answered with "That's just, like, your opinion, man." This is the kind of dismissive passive-aggressive tone a school student might use. You say that "they didn't press it after you reinstated your edit", which isn't the case - my reversion was re-reverted by Wukai, rather than AlsoWukai. I'm not suggesting blocking the user, but that their inappropriate behaviour needs to be looked at. --TrottieTrue (talk) 18:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

TrottieTrue, be aware that the essay you cite is just that - it's one person's advice, not a policy. Also, a prior discussion on their talk page about the question of starting a sentence in that manner has no weight at all - user talk pages are not a place to discuss editorial best practice. Again, for the matter of the content dispute, while I agree with your position, that is a question either for the article talk page or, more generally, the MOS. As for the tone of the commentary, it's not ideal, but high school students are welcome to edit here, I'm not going to sanction someone for sounding like one.

As for the question of whether they should use two accounts in one discussion - it's not that unusual, provided the disclosure is clear and they do not attempt to use it to game an edit war, I'm not uncomfortable with it. If there are cases of misuse, I'd be happy to investigate. GirthSummit _(blether) 20:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

"As for the tone of the commentary, it's not ideal, but high school students are welcome to edit here, I'm not going to sanction someone for sounding like one." I'm sure that plenty of high school students are capable of interacting in a polite and courteous manner on Wikipedia. The point is that such language is neither polite or courteous. --TrottieTrue (talk) 21:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

TrottieTrue, absolutely, I agree with you - we should all try to be entirely courtious to each other. What I'm saying to you is that absent an identifiable personal attack, or a long-running and well-documented string of low-level incivility (which has been hinted at, but not evidenced), I don't believe there's anything for admins to do aside from saying 'play nice'. GirthSummit _(blether) 22:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Girth_Summit Well, that would be a start. Such behaviour certainly shouldn’t be encouraged. —TrottieTrue (talk) 16:08, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

TrottieTrue: Fair enough.

AlsoWukai: Please remember that this is a collaborative environment, and that we're all on the same team. Play nice. And by that, I mean that not everyone you are interacting with has the same cultural norms as you, they don't all use the same flavour of the English language as you do, and they aren't all men. Phrases like "That's just, like, your opinion, man", while certainly innocuous to some, have the potential to offend or upset others. The best approach is to be unfailing polite and collegiate in all your interactions with other editors.

Both: can we close this report now? GirthSummit _(blether) 19:31, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• This minor edit war seems to have been resolved with some improved wording. However, Wukai is a very hostile and non-collaborative editor prone to endless edit-wars even over things of little consequence, and also has a habit of using his/her alternate account to edit war with, in an apparent attempt to evade 3RR when edit-warring with lesser-informed people. One of those accounts should be permanently shut down so that this does not happen anymore. And Wukai should be warned about continued hostility and non-collaborativeness.

  TrottieTrue, keep discussion of content off of usertalk. Discussing content on usertalk only leads to problems. Keep those discussions on articletalk instead. Softlavender (talk) 11:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your understanding, Softlavender. I didn't want to revert my edit again and get into edit warring, so I got round the issue by rewording it. The reversions and language used by Wukai are somewhat hostile though, and it's unusual for me to experience behaviour like that on Wikipedia. I would agree with your summary, Softlavender, from what I've seen of the user.

I thought that discussion of a revert was best brought up on the Usertalk page, but I will avoid that in future, and instead do it on Articletalk. --TrottieTrue (talk) 18:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• They've sometimes bounced back and forth within minutes on the same articles, which doesn't look good. It would be pretty incompetent intentional socking-to-edit-war; the accounts are named to make them easy to connect, but if they can't fix the access problem on their laptop for Wukai, they should just enable AlsoWukai on their phone and abandon the old account. —valereee (talk) 15:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• So do we need warnings or a block for User:AlsoWukai--User:Wukai? They've not responded here. Were they notified? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:24, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy to stop using my Wukai account if that will appease y'all. AlsoWukai (talk) 18:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the problem is less the alt account than the edit warring. The issue is not appeasement, but disruptive edit warring Please see WP:BRD. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra, I did indeed notify the user at User_talk:AlsoWukai#Rashida_Tlaib. You're right that the alternative account is less of an issue here, but the user could appear to be using it to edit war. It is, as you say, disruptive. --TrottieTrue (talk) 18:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I will stop using the Wukai account. Edit wars can be addressed as they occur. AlsoWukai (talk) 19:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

AlsoWukai, my above commentary notwithstanding, since you are aware of the edit warring policy, it should not be necessary for us to deal with edit warring from you since you can ensure that it does not occur. 3RR isn't a licence, it's just the point beyond which it is absolutely taking the piss to go. 1RR is what a responsible editor should hold themselves to in normal circumstances, then they should hit the talk page. GirthSummit _(blether) 20:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

100+ vandal edits on Myles Turner within the last 24 hours

Myles Turner (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is being vandalized at a very high rate. I did leave a wp:rfpp, but thought this should be bumped up. Adakiko (talk) 05:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Page protected. Adakiko (talk) 05:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I also pinged an admin privately to indef three accounts created specifically to vandalise the article; two of them had enough edits to autocon-bust a few days from now. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^{Takes a strong man to deny...} 05:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm going through the single-purpose accounts and blocking as needed. Thanks for the report. -- Fuzheado | Talk 05:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

One of those accounts isn't so much an SPA as it is a compromised account by the looks of it. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^{Takes a strong man to deny...} 05:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Blocked these accounts:

• User:Jpegan
• User:Ethmatcai
• User:Moedallaz345
• User:Yessir9644987664356
• User:Paidbyballmer
• User:Imjuskyre
• User:Hiro418
• User:YaMutha1234
• User:Aaron 456.67
• User:Chitowncubs123
• User:Bepiscola
• User:E1hyp3
• User:RL1016
• User:Ijfiod34ur9n
• User:WikiTwitter290

-- Fuzheado | Talk 05:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

110.170.144.xx range conducting BLP Violation

Hello, i found that IP range 110.170.144.xx conducting vandalism and BLP Violation on Phum Viphurit. These users has reported in AIV but needs a long respond and quickly become stale. Let see how IP vandalize the article:

• 110.170.144.33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 110.170.144.32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 110.170.144.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

This three users needs to be rangeblock because of distruptive behaviour. 180.244.189.223 (talk) 05:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I semi-protected the article for a week. Rangeblocks area better suited for vandalism across multiple articles. The self-protection will stop the issue for now.  EvergreenFir (talk) 05:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

31.5.133.157

• 31.5.133.157 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Hi All, IP User 31.5.133.157 is mass-editing articles such as Eurasia and List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Eurasia without providing any edit summaries and zero sources, since yesterday. Most information being added such as on Federation of Euro-Asian Stock Exchanges and Eastern European Group‎ does not seem to be constructive or accurate. I have tried to revert where possible, however the volume of edits is just too high in most cases. Many thanks, Archives908 (talk) 14:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Not sure if this is deliberate, but it seems that some of their edits consisted of adding super-inflated world maps and other landmarks to various articles that disrupted the layout of the page, so I reverted some of them. I have no idea what the IP is trying to accomplish here but their edits probably need some eyes. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 15:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance. I have no clue either. They are still at it...a new (unexplained) edit every few minutes. The user seems to be focused on geography from what I can see, but they're sporadic editing style with zero explanation is certainly not constructive; nor is the content they are adding. In the Eastern European Group‎ and Federation of Euro-Asian Stock Exchanges articles, the user added Turkey and Azerbaijan, respectively, as members (which they are not). In the Eurasia article, the user added Turkey and Pakistan under Soviet states (which, again they are not). I cannot explain what they're objective is, but it is disruptive nonetheless. I have managed to revert these edits prior to the disruption, but based on the trends in their edit history, this chaotic style of editing pursues. Any further guidance? Much appreciated, Archives908 (talk) 17:04, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, have a glance at Istanbul Process, none of the edits make any sense. 12 edits done in a about 1 hour, with zero explanation. Archives908 (talk) 17:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

And now, they have moved on too List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Oceania, 14 unexplained edits in less than 15 minutes. Archives908 (talk) 17:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

...and subtracted 1 mill square kilometers from the area of Angola ([81]]), blocked on Wikidata, reverted on Commons... - 4ing (talk) 18:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, 4ing for your help reverting the Users continued disruptive edits. Archives908 (talk) 13:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Edit warring by WilliamJE

FYI

 – Heading was refactored by Liz. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

After User:WilliamJE edited the article for Mike Straka to remove details regarding books he had written (see this edit), I reinserted the material, adding reliable and verifiable sources about each of the books. WilliamJE has started an edit war today (revert one, revert two and revert three), with the argument that this is all "book spam". WilliamJE inherently acknowledges that the material is encyclopedic and believes that there is some part of this that doesn't belong here, but refuses to comply with WP:PRESERVE and fix the problem, choosing instead to revert the edits and remove all of the content. It appears that the material is being removed out of spite to make a WP:POINT. Furthermore, WilliamJE has started to follow me to articles that I've recently edited within the previous day and that the editor had never edited before, including Essex County Country Club and Randolph High School. Half of WilliamJE's last dozen edits involve following me around from article to article. Any ideas? Alansohn (talk) 16:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

User:WilliamJE is quite correct to remove references that cite Amazon book sales pages - it is book spamming. - Ahunt (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

The complaining editor should have a boomerang headed back at him. Ideas he asks

1- His last edit to Mike Straka was in 2013[82]

2- I came to Essex Country Club after this post[83] was made to a WikiProject talk page. A talk page I've made almost five dozen edits[84] to going back as far as 2010.

3- Working on alumni related edits is something I do all the time. Just one example, this USER talk page post[85] I did 3 days ago.

The above allegations are absurd. What I removed from Straka were multiple links to Amazon book pages. Is WP here to promote an author's books? Nope. It is bookspam. The complainant was told twice to make a bibliography section similar to one found at Mary Higgins Clark without the Amazon links but they shrugged it off. One of shrugs included this edit summary[86]- 'rv malicious removal of sourced content. Even you don't believe that this material is not encyclopedic or reliably sourced; you're just doing this out of spite. This time read WP:PRESERVE, WP:POINT and WP:DICK, especially the latter.

Wrong accusations from an editor with clear history of practicing WP:OWN when it comes to New Jersey related articles. Any ideas?...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:16, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

The problem here is that WilliamJE believes that all disliked content should be removed, not merely questionable content. If the edits in question only removed the content in question there's no issue. all three reverts in question -- one, two and three -- remove details about the books with multiple reliable and verifiable sources, and this appears to be done purely out of spite and in direct violation of WP:PRESERVE, as has been discussed with this user. Alansohn (talk) 18:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any reliable sources in those three reverts. Which sources is reliable? HuffPo? In my view, a bigger question is why an editor with 450k edits over 15 years is adding inline external links to amazon.com in a mainspace article. No editor should be linking this way: Straka is the author of ''[https://www.amazon.com/Rowdy-Rousey-Ronda-Rouseys-Fight/dp/1629372390/ref=sr_1_1_twi_pap_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1487098998&sr=8-1&keywords=%22rowdy+rousey%22+%22mike+straka%22 Rowdy Rousey],''. Alansohn, what gives with this linking? Lev¡vich 18:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

The link you cite was added in February 2017 in this edit. Alansohn (talk) 18:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Let's not play games, let's just talk about the real issues. Yes, the original link was added in 2017, but after it was removed by WJE, you (Alansohn) reinstated it here, here, and here. The question isn't "Who put it there first?", the question is, in my mind, why is an editor who is #36 on the all-time-edits list edit warring to keep policy-violating link spam in an article? You know it's wrong to link to Amazon.com this way, why insist on it through multiple reversions? Lev¡vich 18:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

The aggressive removal of content by WilliamJE can also be seen at this edit, where sourced material about a book was removed because the editor did not look at what was changed in the article. WilliamJE does not believe that WP:PRESERVE -- and the obligation to "Preserve appropriate content. As long as any facts or ideas would belong in an encyclopedia, they should be retained in Wikipedia" -- has any relevance, even where other editors have added sources. Alansohn (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

...and that edit was self-reverted 8 minutes later. (And the original reversion would be valid under DUE grounds.) Why even bring up a self-reverted edit, and not mention that it was self-reverted? That doesn't strike me as an accurate presentation of the evidence, Alansohn. Lev¡vich 18:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I cleaned up the links in that article, probably still needs some work. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 19:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

"Based on spite" is not a phrase that should be used in a title here. How do you expect anyone to look at an issue dispassionately when you use it? I have no idea who is right or wrong here, and will not even look when a discussion is framed in this way. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

My edit above has now been rendered meaningless because the section title has been changed. It originally had "based on spite" at the end. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Alansohn: So much for WP:AGF. Should we just close this and pretend it never happened ? Edit warring to restore a link to amazon is pretty high on my list of absurdities, in world where absurdity is becoming the norm --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:40, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @Alansohn:: Just some friendly advice: you are clearly in the wrong here, so best to admit it, apologize and thus hopefully avoid a block for edit warring to add spam links. Perhaps this can then be closed without further action. - Ahunt (talk)

Edmund the Martyr

Could someone pop over to Edmund's article and remove the COI edit that keeps being added such as this please? I asked Favonian but they declined and I am at the 3RR threshold (and in any case, there's no sign of this new single-purpose account stopping). The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I have reverted the edit and notified the editor about this discussion. GiantSnowman 17:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Must have beaten me by a nanosecond! I agree with the reasoning here and will also keep an eye on the page. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I've semi-protected for three days to cut short the event spam. Acroterion (talk) 19:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you all. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 20:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

and with his feast day coming up on the 20th thank you all for the work. Edmund Patrick – confer 22:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Nick Cordero

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Just days ago on November 15, an RFC was closed at Talk: Nick Cordero with consensus to include COVID-19 as the cause of death. User:Tubbyty is repeatedly removing the content, stating in an edit summary that "I don't give a shit about consensus". I have reverted twice and am now requesting assistance to let this editor know quite clearly that they are obligated to follow consensus. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:10, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Blocked. for edit-warring. Acroterion (talk) 03:18, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mahni Gorashi

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have some concerns about the article Mahni Ghorashi. I suspect that some citations in that article might be faked.

The article, created by SPA Matt123071, came to my attention when, via category watching, I noticed an extraordinary number of categories, which I removed (several times; another user had done similarly before). I then noticed some extraordinary claims about the subject's musical and literary achievements, so I checked out some of the provided sources. They failed verification, and I tagged them as such, with detailed |reason=. Then eight editors, all with only 1 or 2 edits, showed up and provided different sources for some of the disputed claims. They also failed verification.

Today, a challenged citation about the subject's musical and literary achievements was replaced with a glowing review of the subject's recital at Carnegie Hall. That source looked very convincing, until the non-professional web page title, "Page", made me look closer and I noticed that the URL, new-york-concert-in-review.com, was a variation of the legitimate URL nyconcertreview.com. That legitimate website doesn't return a result for https://nyconcertreview.com/?s=Ghorashi, nor does a site-specific Google search. A WhoIs query for the cited domain returned that is was created today. Lastly, I Google-searched for the first sentence in that review, and the three results were all for a different pianist. Looking again at the cited source in the article, I noticed that that review was just above the subject's purported review, and the first paragraph in both reviews is almost identical. Finally, I looked at the HTML code in the cited source, and immediateley noticed that the review text was not there. While I'm no HTML maven, I found that the review text is transcluded from here (must be viewed as raw).

As I write this, it occurred to me to check his claimed teaching activities. The provided source for MIT Sloane, is a fake similar to what I found above, as is the one for Stanford, and poor fakes they are, too. The MIT domain was created yesterday, as was the Stanford one.

I'm pretty sure that Mr Ghorashi exists, but I'm almost just as sure that all of his music credentials are faked, and some of his academic credentials are misleading or overstated.

I'm here because I don't know what to do next. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:21, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I removed what I think was the BLP-violating stuff; the article could use another pass. (1) it should be EC-protected, but RFPP is backlogged again; (2) the lead image probably isn't a self-portrait as claimed in local and commons file tags, and (3) if it is, the account probably should be verified and autobio tags added to the article; (4) not sure if this subject is notable in the first place. Might be a job for AFD but I'll leave it to someone else to decide. (And Michael Bednarek I think you need to post {{subst:ani-notice}} on the editor's UTP.) Lev¡vich 06:18, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

+EC for 1 week. —valereee (talk) 11:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Tictictoc various issues

Tictictoc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

See contribs.

• On 12 November (after having been inactive since January 2019), Tictictoc started mass-welcoming users with no contributions.
• On 18 November Tictictoc removed content from Vijay Kumar Aggarwal with the edit comment "removed promotional content". Complete nonsense as far as I can tell.
• The same day they added obviously incorrect {{copypaste}} tags to Monoblock LNB (diff) and Versatile Video Coding. (diff) Very obviously wrong and reverted by User:J. M.. On their talk page, they defended this saying Ohh, but those articles are copy pasted from somewhere else that's why i added the templates. that can't be nonsensical. Later they claimed that these reports were based on Earwig's Copyvio Detector.
• They moved Dr Sandeep Roy to Sandeep Roy. As the article is virtually certain to be deleted, this is completely pointless and just a waste of time for new page patrollers and possibly (if there's no bot that does this) an admin for the deletion.
• They tagged Mr. Roy with the {{db-animal}} template. They claim Off-course not, i added A7 for biographies. If it appears for animal it might be my mistake of typos. I apologies for this. I didn't do all this intentionally. This is rather strange: they used Twinkle, people are the first A7 entry in Twinkle and animals the second to last, a somewhat improbable mix-up, but at any rate I don't see how such an error would be a typo. It's confusion all around and Competence is required.

My request:

• Can an admin check recent deleted contributions from Tictictoc (if any) to make sure no rubbish speedy deletion tagging was accidentally granted?
• At the very least, give Tictictoc a clear message that these shenanigans shan't continue. I'm not entirely convinced that J. M. and myself are really getting through to them.
• Someone else (doesn't have to be an admin) also go over their recent contributions in case I missed something.

Thank you. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 06:37, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I haven't done the other stuff but there are no deleted contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:48, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Tictictoc: is User:Sumikamloops an alternative account of yours? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 07:29, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

On slightly closer look, I'm sure it is. And as you are reverting what Sumikamloops added there is a serious problem here. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 07:33, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, Sumikamloops stopped in July. Odd, though. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:54, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Alexis Jazz, Thanks for notifying me. I am not connected anywhere with user Sumikamloops.Tictictoc (talk) 13:06, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Draftified Sandeep Roy --Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:03, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra: Besides the content removal, Sumikamloops was warned about mass welcomes in July, yet Tictictoc started with them last week. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 09:40, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Editing patterns make it obvious, perhaps it was a WP:Sleeper. --CrystallineLeMonde (talk) 12:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra, CrystallineLeMonde, and J. M.: I almost missed it because Tictictoc squeezed their response in between some others, but above they say "I am not connected anywhere with user Sumikamloops". Sumikamloops hasn't edited recently, so presumably CU can do nothing. But as this looks like a duck, what do we do know? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:24, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

However, it's a quite bit interesting that both users have an interest in a certain article. --CrystallineLeMonde (talk) 22:42, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

E-960's topic ban

User:E-960 is subject to community imposed TBAN at AN/I (imposed by User:Wugapodes) from Christianity and European secular politics, broadly construed due to his combative behaviour. I saw E-960 appear at the edit warring board, and looked deeper seeing continuing breaches of this ban:

1. [87] on Christian minorities fleeing Europe to the new world.

2. [88][89][90][91][92] edits leading to the edit warring report, on abortion in Poland.

3. [93] discussing editing on "Jesus Christ King of Poland" from six months ago.

This is persistent defiance of the community ban and is wrong.--Astral Leap (talk) 09:37, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

That last edit, from six months ago, appears to be the editor mentioning edits while responding to a noticeboard thread about the edits in question, unless I am mistaken. jp×g 10:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The last edit is from today, November 19th. E-960 brought up today, on his own independent initiative, a six month old dispute on Jesus in Poland in an edit warring report on the separate subject of abortion in Poland.--Astral Leap (talk) 10:27, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Wow, now I'm glad I put "unless I am mistaken" at the end of that sentence :^) I am mistaken. jp×g 10:55, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Sanctioning admin note I mention in my close that "European secular politics" shouldn't be interpreted as "European politics". It should be interpreted as the separation of religious life from European political life. Since the Catholic Church and various branches of Christianity have generally opposed legalization of abortion and homosexuality, it's hard to see how the Poland edits aren't related to the separation of religious and political life, but it's not entirely obvious and I really don't know the history of Poland all that well. The edit warring was disruptive, but it's stopped, and the other two diffs don't strike me as something requiring a block to resolve (yet). I think we're at the stage of giving a formal warning that, yes, legalization (or prohibition) of abortion or homosexuality in historically Christian nations of Europe fall under the topic ban. — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:51, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Comment by E-960

I would like to say that other editors/admins involved in the "abortion" discussion did not necessarily see it as directly infringing on the ban [94]. Also, given that there is an sock-puppet investigation going on, I did point out that an unusual patter of editing occurred during the "Jesus Christ King of Poland?" discussion on the Poland talk page (which occurred well before my t-ban), raising concerns to administrators regarding disruptive editing, entrapment, creation of multiple user accounts, and/or harassment (which this may well be part of — connected to another bigger issue) should not be silenced by evoking a t-ban. I would like to point out that Astral Leap's account was only created in February of 2020, and given the ongoing investigation regarding a flood of new accounts, who get involved in exchanges with editors and topics connected with Poland, I am not comfortable with how this situation is unfolding. --E-960 (talk) 10:11, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, I went ahead and self-reverted on the first point [95]. Indeed, the ban affects Christianity topics as a whole and European Secularism specifically, I got things a bit mixed up in my mind, and when making a series of edits on the United States page, I carelessly added the word "English" in front of statement related to "dissenting Christian groups". I acknowledge this was a honest mistake on my part, as I unwittingly just lumped the ban as pertaining to European related articles only. --E-960 (talk) 10:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@E-960 You accidentally revealed your IP --> [96] Are you okay with that? - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

If it can be changed to E-960 it would be great, though I think i did this already a few time in the past anyway, hehe... --E-960 (talk) 11:29, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• NOTE: Also, I'd like to raise attention about user:Astral Leap account activity, it appears that the vast majority of the user's edits actually relate to either being engaged in admin board or talk page discussions, but lack any meaningful article content editing — mostly relegated to "mico" edits, such as the following examples: [97], [98], [99], [100] or [101]. I raised the issue with contributors who are familiar with the on-going sockpuppet investigation to perhaps see if there is a connection. --E-960 (talk) 13:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Editor inserting extreme POV additions to Syrian civil war related articles

AleviQizilbash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is doing major POV-pushing on the Syrian Civil War and Civil uprising phase of the Syrian Civil War articles. Here and here are the problematic diffs. The user is trying to change the narrative in two ways: Saying that Western propaganda is the cause of the protests, and that the protests themselves are about killing the Alawite and Christian minorities. For the first part about Western propaganda, their source is simply an editorial in The Guardian. Some of the other sources they use are also problematic, but for these the main issue is that they all seem to describe individual incidents of intimidation or ethnic conflict between the opposition, and do not support either of these narratives. In other words, the user is trying to synthesize extremely heavy claims with sources that do not directly support said claims -- They're synthesizing an extreme counter-narrative. That, and telling me they hope the Syrian rebels will kill me, though I don't think their guns can shoot that far. Eik Corell (talk) 19:04, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I've quoted 6 sources all of them has confirmed this slogan of the early protests "Alawites to the grave and Christians to Beirut" so your objections doesn't make any sense , You have labeled Genocidewatch of Gregory Stanton of geroge Mason university , The Christian Post , Tim Anderson's book , Agos News , The Spectator Magazine and more as " Dubious sources " !! then you falsely claimed that none of the sources say anything about genocide of Alawites and expulsion of Christians which is not true at all , all of them have this exact sentence " Alawites to the grave and Christians to Beirut " , your defence of the terrorists or rebels or whatever you want to call them is one sided dishonest narrative ,I said western propaganda is one of the causes not the only cause , I quoted the Guardian , your so called " editorial " claim doesn't make any sense since it's investigative Journalism , already the rest of the list mentioned as causes by other editors doesn't have any source , you kept them and didn't object to any of them while once I mentioned a fact with a cited source you started to panic in defense of your beloved rebels , You are the one who want to make POV Push , while I allowed the different narratives to exist and let the reader be the judge not your western type of censorship and Intel service manipulation of western media . enjoy yourself with your beloved rebelsAleviQizilbash (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

AleviQizilbash Comments such as wish someday you will have the same fate as your beloved pissful western sponsored "Syrian rebels" are utterly unacceptable, and that's before we even get into comments like you just want to defend your terrorists. This alone, frankly, should result in a block from editing. — Czello 19:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Quote left by AleviQizilbash on Eik Corell's Talk page:

"...anyway you just want to defend your terrorists and make the wiki article with single narrative , that's fine , I'm not going to fight with you since your intentions are malice from the start and the wiki project is controlled by your likes , so do whatever you want in the already fucked up page , I will never revert your cover up project again , wish someday you will have the same fate as your beloved pissful western sponsored "Syrian rebels" ,Cheers , ByeAleviQizilbash (talk) 22:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)"

If nothing else, this is a major violation of WP:CIVIL. I haven't looked into the diffs, but this isn't the way to resolve issues on Wikipedia.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 19:37, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Judge the diffs then block me later . this guys Eik corell's behavior has angered me and I don't believe that he has a good faith in his reverting , I have no problem with people who revert my editing based on good faith , I became irritated with people who keep reverting editing while they are having bad faith and malice intentions like this guy corell and his likesAleviQizilbash (talk) 19:44, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm trying to engage in good faith, which is why I explained all of this on your talk page. What I said there is that you are synthesizing extremely heavy claims from isolated -- even if widespread -- incidents. What you're saying could be true, but sources cannot be stacked in the way you're doing to support broad claims like these. For example, I could say that all Muslims/Hindus/Buddhists are terrorists, and then stack on sources that cover individual attacks, but that wouldn't substantiate what I said. That's what WP:SYNTH deals with -- Extrapolating a position/conclusion from information that while it may be peripherally relevant to the topic, does not support the conclusion. I can tag on one last example: The recent conflict between Armenia/Azerbaijan -- I could say that either side wants to annihilate the other, and cite either side's numerous attacks/killings of civilians, and it still would not support such a statement. Eik Corell (talk) 20:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Ok man but please explain to me what does it mean " Alawites to the grave and Christians to Beirut " all the sources that i mentioned has documented this early chant of the rebels and they clearly said that this was their slogan , chant and " almost official jingle" when more than 6 sources agree together about this fact , then it's true and it has nothing to do with saying " all Muslims or all Buddhists are terrorists " also I'm not talking about the numerous attacks , I'm talking about the chants of the rebels , their chants are their demands , plain and simple , if you have other chants you can add them too along with the chants that I mentioned without the need of deleting an important widespread chant and demand during the early stages of the uprising . I apologize for being rude with you , I don't fear getting blocked , I have no problem with that , to be blocked gives me a rest anyway , but I just apologize because you seems to be a good person and your last answer shows that you are nice person ,I don't want you to go to sleep while feeling annoyed . maybe it was just a misunderstanding between us , I eat lots of sugar too which may contribute to my hot temper , my apologies , Thank YouAleviQizilbash (talk) 20:47, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I also eat a lot of sugary food, and at no point have I said anything like wish someday you will have the same fate as your beloved pissful western sponsored "Syrian rebels". — Czello 22:10, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Creating a carnivore diet page.

Hello,

I'm interested in writing a page on the carnivore diet since I noticed there is none.

Since I didn't find a page about it I googled and the third search result is about a reddit thread about it being remove by vegan activists.

I asked a question here about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk#Diets_and_vegan_activism

The carnivore diet article has been removed and the topic censored by a biased editor who is a vegan. He has slandered me to be another user and called the topic anti-science and quackery.

Now, I'm interested in writing a good article with reliable sources, and I know what that means. I'm a mathematician. However that would take some time and since the responses I got don't seem encouraging I have doubts in investing my time just for the article to be removed by biased editors.

Is there any way for me to post the done page, have it reviewed for accuracy and if it is OK close the article to some editors who are obviously biased against the subject?

Or just stall their edits until they are reviewed?

Thank you.

Apologies if this is not the place to ask this, I'm new. JustANameInUse (talk) 22:27, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Try reading WP:AGF until you understand what the problem is there. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:47, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I did. The editor responsible has vegan and animal rights in his user page, calls me biased, the topic against science and quackery. I'm asking how to fight that. Should I even try? JustANameInUse (talk) 23:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

JustANameInUse is a case of WP:NOTHERE with a battleground mentality to stir up an imaginary flame war between "vegans" and "carnivores". So far he has called four users biased "vegans" without any evidence. For those who have no history on this matter there has been a serious issue on Wikipedia regarding the carnivore diet in regard to sock-puppetry and meat-puppetry. If you check the history of the carnivore diet article before the redirect many accounts were blocked earlier this year [102] and on the monotrophic diet article. The carnivore diet article has been advertised on multiple "carnivore diet" boards on Reddit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/BecomeFree BecomeFree] and his other socks skyisdeep, Moresdevin etc were blocked for trying to recreate the carnivore diet multiple times or promote it on other articles. Several other accounts were blocked for meat-puppetry. JustANameInUse a new account is trying to promote the carnivore diet and remove criticisms of it. This user has edited the Monotrophic diet and tried to remove the word "fad" from several articles in relation to carnivore diet on a self admitted IP. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC) [103]. These edits are disruptive and have been reverted by multiple editors. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

No, I did not call four users biased vegans. I already explained all that, you are interpreting facts to satisfy your bias. I'm not here to promote anything, which I can't say for you. Your whole user page is about veganism and animal rights. Previous users don't concern me, I'm interested in writing an article, not sponsoring a diet, unlike you. Perhaps you should read WP:AGF JustANameInUse (talk) 23:12, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

"The carnivore diet article has been removed and the topic censored by a biased editor who is a vegan" etc. On Wikipedia all public edits are logged. We can see you calling different editors vegans and you have an obsession with talking about "bias". You have done that over at the help desk, do we really need to list diffs? Your edits are disruptive. If you want to re-create the carnivore diet, then why not draft it? You have turned up on a brand new account complaining about alleged vegan bias. You are not helping your case. You want to create the carnivore diet article then why not just do it? All drafts are reviewed btw. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Again with distorting facts. I want to, that is why I asked the question and all I got was hostility from you, nothing constructive. Being attacked by a obviously biased editor and laughed at by an obviously biased editor is the reason I asked here how to protect myself JustANameInUse (talk) 23:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

"It is OK close the article to some editors who are obviously biased against the subject". Facepalm. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Why are you so condescending? I explained I'm new and asked how to protect and article against biased editors and you are laughing at me? JustANameInUse (talk) 23:33, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

User:2A01:4C8:461:94D1:8820:E9C9:28EB:AA01

Has continued to vandalize own user talk page after being blocked. Mind revoking? Thanks. --HurricaneTracker495 (talk) 22:34, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

See [104] for evidence. --HurricaneTracker495 (talk) 22:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)