Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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RfC: Adult industry sources

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Are the following two sources generally reliable for news reporting and WP:RSOPINION statements in their area of expertise (the adult industry)? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:35, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1: Generally reliable for factual-type information on this particular topic
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual-type reporting on this particular topic
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated factual-type information on this particular topic, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail?

AVN (magazine)

• Option 1 As far as I'm aware, here hasn't been any particular controversy in regarding to AVN magazine and its journalism. It is a the prime source for the subject area and so seems one of the most appropriate sources to use. Silverseren^C 21:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1, I think: as we quote in our article on the magazine, The New York Times called it "an industry magazine that is to pornographic films what the trade publication Billboard is to records" in 2000. We currently consider its awards significant on bios. It seems of comparable quality to a trade publication in any other subject area. If we reject AVN, I'm not sure what better sources there are on the sex industry. — Bilorv (talk) 19:50, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Additional consideration in that AVN does publish press releases as is, but does mark them as such. (Compare the labeled articles in this AVN search[1]) Those press releases can not be relied on. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:19, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 for non-sponsored content and non-press release content as per Morbidthoughts. Otherwise needs an Option 2 disclaimer. I would say this is analogous to the sponsored content produced in many other news venues like The New York Times, The Economist, Wired, and others. [2] We should not trust such content as RS, but for the rest, I think it's probably okay.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 for any content that is not a copy of the press release. Reprints of press releases are only reliable for the press releaser stating something.--Hippeus (talk) 09:20, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 for any non-sponsored content, which (per Morbidthoughts) can be distinguished from their own content. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:13, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 It can be relied on for reliability free from controversy. Sea Ane (talk) 19:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

XBIZ

• Option 1 Being responsible for one of the main award competitions for the adult industry and not seeing any issues reported elsewhere regarding their journalistic side, I see no reason why they aren't a top level source for this specific subject matter. They aren't schlock celebrity news or anything like that. Silverseren^C 21:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1, I think: this one I've used in GirlsDoPorn (warning for sexual abuse: you need a really strong stomach to click that link) and found it as reliable as all the internet culture websites (The Daily Beast, Vice) and local coverage (NBC 7 San Diego) that broke the story and the mainstream sources that re-reported it (New York Times, Sydney Morning Herald). The Washington Post asked the president/publisher for a quote in their article. As with AVN, it's a trade publication and if we reject it there's not much we can write about the sex industry. — Bilorv (talk) 19:50, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 - XBIZ publishes press releases as is, but does not mark them as such. They used to. They're somewhat easy to catch since they list no author (like AVN), but I would not rely on XBIZ for anything contentious. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:19, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 as per above, I think the issue is that they can produce sponsored content and not give it much definition to separate it. I would say that this means we should not use it for controversial matters, but otherwise GR. The industry is so extremely ad-based, that it makes sense that these considerations are a bigger problem here than elsewhere. Even more than typical journalism outlets which have a higher proportion of donors and subscribers.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2, as they do not clearly mark reprinted press releases.--Hippeus (talk) 09:21, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 for their own content. The GirlsDoPorn GA Bilorv links above extensively uses this (same warning for sexual abuse) source which is a thorough and good piece of news reporting. Their other work also seems to be reliable (ie not fabricated). It's not great that they don't mark reposted press releases clearly, but it can still be identified, and that content should be unreliable (this would be the "additional consideration" I suppose). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:13, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 It releases content without properly marking it. Sea Ane (talk) 20:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rfc: Jacobin (magazine)

Hello all! While editing recent articles in Peruvian politics, especially regarding Pedro Castillo and the 2021 Peruvian general election, Jacobin was encountered on multiple occasions. There are some interesting interviews and articles written by Jacobin, though there has not been a clear consensus on the reliability of the magazine as a source.

Previous discussions with dedicated sections were held, with the oldest being seen here on Archive 302, while in Archive 324 users shared that the reliability of Jacobin was between generally reliable and no consensus/addtional considerations after reviewing discussions from Archive 302.

Since it appears that Jacobin has hundreds of links throughout the project, it is suggested that we determine the level of reliability of the source so it can be present on the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources page.

Options are as follows:

• Option 1: The source is recognized as being generally reliable.
• Option 2: There is no consensus or additional considerations apply.
• Option 3: The source is recognized as being generally unreliable in most cases, though it can be used under certain circumstances.
• Option 4: The source is recognized as being not reliable at all and should be deprecated

Thank you for taking the time to take a look at this!--WMrapids (talk) 04:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• So where's the dispute? I see you in reverts with other editors on those articles, but not concerning Jacobin in particular. What is the precise usage you are disputing, for which claims, and which of these usages are observably in dispute? Without this, this is an invalid RFC - David Gerard (talk) 06:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I'm confused now, I thought the idea of an RFC was a generic reliability request. The idea being that there would be at least two prior discussions of the source and with a view to including it in the perennials with the outcome. Have I got this wrong?Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: It has been discussed here a bunch of times: a year ago, with a clear consensus for "generally reliable but attribute"[3] and then seven months ago, with a consensus for "use with caution"[4]. Three substantial discussions would mean we could add it to the RSP list, but I don't see what we might say that wasn't already said in previous discussions, without a specific usage to discuss. (My choice though, if we proceed with this RfC, would be for option 2: mostly a partisan opinion source usable with attribution if noteworthy, but occassionally publishes well-researched pieces by experts in their fields, on topics that might not be covered in more mainstream sources, in particular on the history of the left or on socialist theory.)
• Option 2 OK, that's clear enough, left wing source, mixes facts with opinion on occasion, so attribute seems best.Selfstudier (talk) 13:51, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Only reliable for attributed quotations. I would say too much opinion to be trusted for all matters of fact, but clearly reliable for attributed quotes and demonstrating due weight.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Add: This is what we do with most partisan sources, including left-leaning sources with an agenda just like some editors above have pointed out Jacobin has (e.g. WP:FOXNEWS, CounterPunch, Democracy Now!, Jezebel, Media Matters for America). There's nothing particularly troublesome that sets Jacobin apart from these other extremely partisan sources as more unreliable. It just needs attribution to counteract its heavy bias.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 22:44, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 3. It consists entirely of opinion pieces and is openly and heavily ideologically slanted. There is no good reason to use such a source - either better sources exist, or it's usually WP:UNDUE. Option 3 allows for occasional use for interviews with highly notable subjects or if an author of an article is a recognized subject-matter expert. Ending up with option 2 would result in editors arguing it can be used as a source for things like economics, contentious labels for BLPs, and so on, that are clearly not appropriate. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3. It's really politically slanted and it's not a straight news source. I wouldn't trust them. Remember, we're talking about using them as the sole source for a fact. If Jacobin is your sole source for anything but the most ideology-free facts, no. Even for things like, I don't know, the year that a town was established or what have you... if Jacobin is your only source for a fact, it'd be a pretty obscure fact and maybe just skip it. I don't get a sense of how rigorous their independent fact-checking operation, and since "getting facts absolutely correct" is not their primary business raison d'etre, I'd be suspicious of even of anodyne facts such as the population of Labrador or whatever, if they are the only source, til I know more. Individual exceptions may be hashed out in individual articles. Herostratus (talk) 14:40, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 While I personally think it is generally reliable, the strong political slant of the magazine makes it best to use with attribution and perhaps not for contentious claims. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 14:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1. They are a textbook example of a usable WP:BIASED source that is still reliable (with the attendant warnings of why you have to be cautious when using any heavily WP:BIASED source, of course, but if that alone disqualified a source then we wouldn't have BIASED.) Here is CJR's in-depth write-up of them, which compares it as follows: And yet as important as these articles were for Jacobin’s reputation, the magazine more closely resembled Wenner’s Rolling Stone, or Harold Hayes’s Esquire, or Tina Brown’s Vanity Fair than it did Dissent or the New Left Review in at least one respect: its whole was greater than the sum of its parts. Implicit comparisons to similar magazines earlier in the piece include The Atlantic Monthly, The New Yorker, Time, and Playboy. Note that every one of the sources it's compared to there are a WP:RS. It is a plainly BIASED source, yes, and requires a warning to that effect; sometimes it has to be used with caution to avoid giving undue weight to its point of view. But anyone arguing it is unreliable is going to need to explain how they can support leaving, for instance, Reason at green in WP:RSP (another source that the CJR piece directly contrasts it with.) Or PinkNews, or The Intercept, or The New Republic, or one of numerous other comparable sources we consider reliable - or, for that matter, The New Yorker or The Atlantic, which are written in a similar style and are particular points of comparison above. Jacobin's less mainstream perspective is something that has to be considered when deciding where it is WP:DUE, but it isn't a matter of reliability. In short, if a source has a reasonable reputation, then simply being biased isn't enough to render it unreliable; you have to demonstrate inaccuracy resulting from that bias. --Aquillion (talk) 13:12, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 Aquillion covers the policies well and there's nothing to disagree with or expand upon. Gamaliel (talk) 14:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 (possibly Option 3). Normally, we put these extremely ideological sources in the Option 2 category (e.g., Salon (RSP entry), Townhall (RSP entry)). Jacobin obviously doesn't report straight news, so it (i) always needs to be attributed and (ii) check to see if it complies with WP:WEIGHT. However, Jacobin has additional issues. Its stated political mission is to: centralize and inject energy into the contemporary socialist movement [5]. So it is more in line with an advocacy group than a news source. Also, it has pretty fringe views. James Wolcott identifies Jacobin as part of the alt-left [6]. It's pretty fringe-y on topics concerning Venezuela [7], the USSR/Communism [8][9], and anti-semitism [10], [11]. I would avoid using Jacobin for those topics. But if you need a socialist/Marxist opinion on something, then Jacobin is definitely a good source to use. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC) Based upon Noonlcarus's comment, Jacobin does seem to frequently use deprecated/unreliable sources for facts. Some examples include Alternet (RSP entry) [12][13][14], Daily Kos (RSP entry) [15], Raw Story (RSP entry) [16], The Canary (RSP entry) [17], and the Electronic Intifada (RSP entry) [18].Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 04:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree that Jacobin is fringey on some of these issues, but we need to b e careful about unreliable versus opinionated. The Nieman Lab piece just says it has to use a range of methods to keep its revenue above its costs ("The majority of [contributors] are graduate students or young professors.") not that it is unreliable. Wolcott is criticising their politics, not claiming they publish fake news (he attacks the Intercept for the same reasons). The Intelligencer says it has bad opinions on communism and Venezeula, but doesn't comment on accuracy. Conor Friedersdorf in The Atlantic says socialism is bad therefore democratic socialist magazines are bad, but doesn't comment on reliability. The (highly unreliable) WSWS dislikes its politics, but, well, so what? Arnold and Taylor provide lots of good reasons why Jacobin's opinions are unpleasant, but again doesn't talk about reliability. Finally literally all the ADL says is that it published an opinion piece saying “Israel Doesn’t Have a “Right to Exist”. The fact that these commentators take the time to polemicise against The Jacobin might suggest that sometimes its opinions are noteworthy, but it tells us nothing about whether it is reliable for facts. So I think these arguments keep us in option 2 territory. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:03, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 or 2 I agree broadly with @Aquillion:'s thoughts and think a disclaimer in the vein of The Intercept(RSP entry) would be ideal. That being said, Jacobin is not, strictly speaking, an actual news source and a part of me is uncomfortable slapping the WP:GREL label on it, even with a disclaimer. I mostly think 1 is the way to go, but I understand and accept 2. BSMRD (talk) 02:26, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
• I agree with Aquillion. Reliable doesn't mean free of bias; if it did we would have no reliable sources. The CJR article should really be the end of this dispute (if there was one?) — Wug·a·po·des​ 07:50, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2. I don't like Jacobin, but I've never heard them to be liars or fabricators. Use with attribution, and I wouldn't use them as sole evidence of notability - it is after all primarily a magazine of opinion - David Gerard (talk) 10:00, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3: Jacobin's clasification as unreliable would not preclude it from being used with attribution; what's important is to determine how reliable it is to be used for facts or with an editorial voice. Not only is Jacobin's bias concerning, but also its reporting. Besides the links provided by Dr. Swag Lord, to put an example, I should mention an open letter signed by around 200 Ecuadorians (Open Letter to Editors of Jacobin and Monthly Review), including prominent left-wing academics and activists, that criticized Jacobin and Monthly Review, which republished an article by The Grayzone, for attacking Yaku Pérez, an ecosocialist and indigenous candidate. In the case of the former, the signatories state that Jacobin overlooked Ecuador's indigenous history and ignores Yaku's "critiques of extractivist statism and monolithic personalism". This is more concerning knowing that Jacobin has quoted Alternet ([19]) and The Grayzone ([20]) in the past, sources that have been deemed as unreliable and that should be deprecated, respectively, and that Jacobin editors Hamzah Raza and Denis Rogatyuk have also contributed for the latter. --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:46, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The open letter is something we should take seriously as it was signed by the most distinguished scholars of Latin America. But I still think it suggests we should treat Jacobin on a case by case basis. We would never want to use it for a topic such as the Ecuadorian election, Pete Buttigieg's past or Labour antisemitism, on which there are acres of other reliable sources and it would be deeply undue to quote the Jacobin. And we would want to avoid a contributor like Denis Rogatyuk whose bylines are mostly in very low quality sources such as Telesur and Grayzone. But where we might want to use it is on a topic that is not covered by so many reliable sources such as radical history,[21][22] other under-represented histories,[23][24] trade union disputes[25] or possibly socialist theory. These are topics where the contributors are often academic researchers. In addition, it occassionally publishes notable writers such as Enzo Traverso,[26] Dawn Foster,[27] or Doug Henwood.[28] If we go with option 3, we will exclude noteworthy material on topics that are likely under-represented in mainstream sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 Concure, Aquillion covers the policies well and there's nothing to disagree with or expand upon. Ip says (talk) 00:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1/2. WP:BIASED but no evidence of unreliability. Use with caution especially toward WP:DUE, but any factual reporting from them ought to be accurate. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 My cursory Google News search for phrases like "according to Jacobin" and "Jacobin reported" finds virtually no references in straight news stories in outlets we generally consider to be RS. As with all things, we should judge by what RS say; many !votes here are "seems reliable" or "I can't recall hearing about an issue with them". We, as Wikipedians, are not qualified to engage in the kind of content analysis needed to properly vet any publication, nor has anyone here shown evidence of having committed the time to do so on this publication. The scientific consensus for content analysis of online media generally suggests two constructed weeks of content be reviewed for every six months evaluated. In the absence of any editor doing that, we should not be !voting on reliability based on our gut instinct and must defer entirely to whether or not RS consider it reliable. In this case, there is no evidence they do (though, also no clear evidence they don't). Chetsford (talk) 02:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 possibly 3. Dr.Swag Lord's evidence is compelling. I would also point to Adfontes Media bias chart [[29]]. Compare Jacobin to Breitbart. They have nearly identical reliability (29.93 vs 29.82 respectively) but Breitbart is actually considered less biased (-23.3 vs 17.49). This actually lands Breitbart in the second tier sources bracket vs third tier for Jacobin. Adfontes is not the end all be all but it is reasonably respected around here. Springee (talk) 03:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

AdFontes says that the Weather Channel, Forbes and the BBC are biased left and the Daily Mail is no more biased right than them, so I think it's stronger on rating reliability than it is on bias, as its idea of the middle is pretty right-wing. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:08, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• There is still a lack of examples of any factual inaccuracies in its coverage. This was pointed out in the last two discussions as well. To the contrary, on searching for coverage of Jacobin in reliable source, it has been cited by Snopes for its fact checks and there are affirmatory reviews in The New York Times and Vox alongside the in-depth piece in the Columbia Journalism Review which has already been brought up above. On the basis of this, I would recommend Option 1 with a disclaimer that it is a partisan magazine whose opinions should be attributed and coverage checked for due weight; à la Reason (RSP entry). If it covers something that is not covered by any other reliable source, it is likely not due but that is not a objection against its reliability. I'm not too concerned with the criticism it has received which more so question its ideological standpoint rather than its journalistic integrity. The open letter published in New Politics stands out as a positive to me, which criticises it for negative coverage of a socialist candidate. If anything it goes to show that the magazine is not susceptible to hyperpartisan impulses. It's use of sources also appears largely responsible, where in case of more partisan sources it tends more towards presenting a viewpoint with attribution rather than as a citation, i.e "This Raw Story piece reminded me of an article in the New York Times Magazine a few weeks ago." or "As the Washington Post notes, ... Or as Daily Kos’s Stephen Wolf put it, they were ...", etc. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 11:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry: while I understand most of your arguments, I'm not sure if I follow the rationale about the content of the open letter. In this case, Jacobin's criticism towards Yaku Pérez, the socialist candidate, appears to be mostly due to its criticism to Rafael Correa, left-wing head of state and part of Latin America's pink tide. The author even goes as far as to say "Pérez’s political record suggests he is a Trojan horse for the left’s most bitter enemies". If this suggests that the candidate would actually help the political right-wing, it would be a proof of the contrary, that Jacobin is susceptible to hyperpartisan impulses. I tried to bring the question, among other things, on how omission by the outlet can affects its reliability, not only for being strong worded. --NoonIcarus (talk) 22:51, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah sorry, I did not look too closely at the context. My specific point regarding hyper-partisanship doesn't stand anymore considering it but nor does it affirm it the other way around. Them taking a position in an internecine competition doesn't tell us anything about their reliability. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 09:30, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 With 2 as my second choice. None of the purported evidence of their unreliability presented here makes a compelling case, and I've seen them write stories on par with other reliable sources. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 and attribute (in most cases). No specific case has been provided for unreliability. The main contentions are 1) that it has a pronounced bias, 2) that it cites sources we deem unreliable, and 3) based on some Ecuador election things. For 1) bias affects reliability only insofar as it actually affects reliability. For 2) the sourcing requirements we use on Wikipedia are quite specific to this community, and they really do not apply to the sources we use. Assuming Jacobin editorial oversight restricts citation to specific dodgy articles within a broader publication, there is not issue with them citing those broader sources. And 3) I confess I haven't dug too deep into this, but a brief glance at the article and reflection on the comments here seem to show that this is a left-wing political kerfuffle, rather than an issue of reliable sourcing.

Now for a positive case for reliability, based mostly on a sampling of uses from various sources:

1. The outlet has a robust editorial board with 10+ full-time editors, 10+ contributing editors, and a separate editorial board.
2. Reliable news outlets rely on Jacobin for quotes, implying that they are reliable at least as far as being trustworthy for not making things up.
3. Peer-reviewed academic works cite Jacobin for statements of fact about topics including protest movements, international economics, and the history of various political movements.
4. Sources on the American right cite Jacobin for statements of fact, implying at least limited acceptance across the aisle (though, to be fair, usually used to make ironic points--but taking Jacobin's statements as true, if politically inflected). Right-wing publications also use Jacobin to represent the perspective of the left.

UBO examples

Palgrave Macmillan peer-reviewed academic works: In Body/Sex/Work: Intimate, Embodied and Sexualized Labour. Cited this without in-text attribution to discuss how feminism and sex work interact Bristol University Press: Cited inline to discuss the effect of COVID-19 on actions of international financial institutions. Journal of International Affairs (just a grad student journal, but article by editorial board)): Cited inline to describe racial diversity in George Floyd protests. Wits University Press: Cited to describe the effects of unemployment on workers, specifically in the context of African development patterns AK Press (radical left publisher): Cited this piece with in-text attribution in Taking Sides to discuss details of protester behaviours during the US Ferguson protests PM Press (offshoot of AK press): Footnote in RE:imagining change suggests a Jacobin article analyzing Murray Bookchin in a modern context Referenced in Beyond Crisis to describe the effects of austerity policy Medical Journal of Australia: [30] On pharmaceutical industry vaccine development International Studies Perspectives peer-reviewed by Oxford University Press listed among notable journals here: Cited to describe student-led protest movements in Brazil Springer's Review of Keynesian Economics: What's wrong with Modern Money Theory: macro and political economic restraints on deficit-financed fiscal policy  :"The fifth panel in Figure 2 concerns MMT's disingenuity about the role and necessity of taxes. That disingenuity has been emphasized by Marxists and left-wing economists" Sage's Labor Studies Journal (peer-reviewed since 1988): Cited several times in discussion of historical militancy in labor unions Sage's Work, Employment & Society (peer-reviewed since 1984): more labor history, about rank-and-file organizing. Included as an example of intellectual argument/analysis on organizing history and strategy Sage's Urban Affairs Review (peer-reviewed urban studies since 1965): Cited in article on patterns of policing, supporting a statement about how police stops have been related to increased dependence of police budgets on fees. NYT: [31] Used as blurb for a recommended book -> weighty for book reviews. [32] An article was analyzed in NYT's "Opinionator". The article in question was first published in Jacobin and later syndicated in Slate, described by Gordon Marino as "a much discussed article" -> Some specific articles are notable in themselves, lending support for possible RSOPINION status. Slate: [33] Designated as 'supplementary reading' for Slate's podcast on fascism to describe fascist movements in the United States. -> reliable for historical statements on fascism Vox: [34]: Cited, linked, and attributed for statements about housing density and city development [35] Linked to represent the political perspectives of the American left Vice: [36]: Brought up a participant in a back-and-forth over political matters [37]: Linked to show left critique of media [38]: Linked for media criticism of a specific film (The Hunger Games) New Yorker: [39]: Providing analysis of Bernie Sanders's political orientation Politico: [40]: Fully quoted and attributed to explain a possible pattern of USA nonvoter behaviours [41]: Quoting interview [42]: Quoting interview The Baffler: [43]: Cited and attributed to describe trends in consumer materialism/anti-materialism [44]: Used as an example of left attitudes on central planning [45]: Says that Jacobin is better for extended coverage of contemporary labor issues than most media Fox (note: no consensus on politics/science): The article basically just summarized a Jacobin article to describe the perspective of the left on Kamala Harris. Cites interview The Federalist: Referenced 2x3x and quoted for statements on single-payer healthcare. (Note: This usage seems like a stretch on The Federalist's part.) Quotes an interview. The Bulwark: Quoted to explain what "abolish the police" means.

It should be recognized that this collection cannot give a full picture of use, but it does give illustrative examples of how Jacobin is used in context. These examples demonstrate both the wide usage of Jacobin in news RS and peer-reviewed literature.

I have tried my best for the journals to identify specifically peer-reviewed works from reasonably recognized journals, though I may have missed the mark since I am not a subject-matter expert.

Based on the lack of opposing argument, the positive arguments suggested above, and my presentation of the combination of robust Jacobin editorial support and robust use in the literature, I suggest that the source can be treated as generally reliable. I am open to specific examples showing otherwise, but these have not been shown so far (beyond political disputes and biased titles).

Jlevi (talk) 02:12, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 It is a respected magazine with authors who are published in major reliable sources. Bear in mind that opinion and analysis articles are not reliable sources wherever they are published unless written by experts and facts and opinions reported in the magazine usually fail weight unless they are published in many sources. As a minor publication with little news coverage, I would not expect it to be widely used as a source. But there are cases where it could be useful. TFD (talk) 03:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1: Though RfCs are somewhat new to me (not sure if RfC openers can do this), the observations by multiple users appear to support Jacobin as a generally reliable source. Jlevi has noted the editorial prowess of the magazine as well as its acceptance across the political spectrum and academia. However, I will expand on recognizing some concerns.

It seems these are the main concerns:

• Bias: Users often hear the "every source is biased" phrase and this obviously applies to Jacobin as well. There are also multiple generally reliable sources regarded as having some bias, including Al Jazeera, the Anti-Defamation League, The Australian, Bellingcat, The Guardian, The Intercept and The Nation. This bias should not discount Jacobin's value as a reliable source regarding left-wing and socialist viewpoints. This bias can be noted in its entry just the same as the previously mentioned sources.
• Use of unreliable sources: As NoonIcarus has mentioned, some articles mention Alternet, Grayzone and possibly other dubious sources. Though one can say that a broken clock is right twice a day, the use of these two sources in particular seems to be too common among left wing publications from what I have seen in my brief research, unfortunately. However, Fox News – which has previously been deemed generally reliable – has used Breitbart reporting on occasion as well, even describing Breitbart as "one of the world’s top news publishers". There is also the issue with contributors and opinion pieces, though I will elaborate on this next. As with other generally reliable sources, we can include a comment to make sure content is properly attributed.
• Contributors/Opinon: As with any other publication or source, there are going to be contributors and opinion pieces. These are usually not treated as statements of fact according to WP:RSEDITORIAL. This is one of Jacobin's shortcomings as it can be difficult to decipher whether an article is from a contributor or staff. For example, Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d shared an article by New York that reviews some opinion articles regarding Venezuela, such as one from George Ciccariello-Maher, though these are just that; opinion articles. Many of these articles were not written by Jacobin staff. If included in WP:RSP, it would be important to note that users should observe what is opinion, similar to the WP:RSP entry of The New York Times.

In conclusion, Jacobin appears to be a biased, though generally reliable source. Ways to identify their opinion articles may not be so apparent, though their work is respected across the political spectrum and overseen by a large editorial board as noted by Jlevi. If added to the WP:RSP list, I recommend an entry similar to The Nation, stating something such as "There is consensus that Jacobin is generally reliable. The magazine identifies as socialist on its website. Most editors consider Jacobin a partisan source whose statements should be attributed. Ensure that opinion pieces are observed and utilized appropriately".--WMrapids (talk) 08:06, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 or 2, although I will note that almost all of what they publish is opinion so most of it isn’t of much use to us unless the opinion holder is notable or useful for something. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:16, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 I have not come across any claims of their unreliability or publication of false/fabricated information. They do however have a notable left-leaning political stance and don't seem to clearly distinguish between news reporting and opinion pieces. I think attribution may sometimes be necessary when it comes to some of their more polemical articles, but otherwise I'd consider them to be generally reliable. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:48, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1/2. We must bear in mind this is a partisan source, definitely. Unfortunately a lot of what they publish is less of investigative journalism and more opinions/editorials, so we should tread here carefully to distinguish fact and opinion, which is also a feature of quite a lot of news outlets of a similar level of bias. That said, the factual accuracy has not been credibly asserted to be low enough not to merit a generally reliable descriptor; the WP:USEBYOTHERS argument by Jlevi is convincing for me (at least the sources actually refer to Jacobin), and this magazine has quite a lot of interesting insights into the left (such as the recent article about NDP govt in British Columbia in 1970s), if opinionated. Probably The Nation is a better alternative, but Jacobin doesn't seem bad at the end of the day. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 02:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 Although Jacobin's articles skew heavily toward opinion/analysis, they're supported by facts that have been cited by top-tier sources. Caveats regarding weight and attribution are unnecessary; like any reliable source, we use statements of opinion with attribution and statements of fact without. –dlthewave ☎ 02:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1, with the summary containing the qualification provided by WMrapids. I'm fully convinced by the points by Aquillion (reliable WP:BIASED), Jlevi (strong reputation as demonstrated by UBO) and WMrapids (particularly regarding the applicability of WP:RSEDITORIAL); I'm not seen any evidence compelling evidence put forward to suggest unreliability/factual inaccuracy. As a second, lesser preference, option 2 on the basis that BIASED says opinionated sources are reliable in specific context, and per points above by Dr.Swag Lord, TFD & Horse Eye's Back made about its predominantly opinion-based output making its use situational (i.e. additional considerations), although I think this is would be inconsistent with the approach we've taken with other biased but usable sources of both left and right-wing dispositions, particularly the Intercept & Fox News, again a point best made by WMrapids but also others. Jr8825 • Talk 13:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2. As far as I can tell, Jacobin publishes mostly op-eds. The reliability of the op-eds should be judged on the basis of the author's expertise and the claims put forth in the op-ed. If claims are extraordinary and made by an author who is not an expert on the subject, then the source should not be considered sufficient to include the content. To say the Jacobin is Option 1 is like saying the NY Times editorial pages are generally reliable. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 and 2. As long as the story is factual and can be validated then Jaconin can be used as a reliable source. It shouldn't just be discredited automatically because it has bias. Every media has bias including mainstream media. A good example is the one article from Jacobin that talks about the media blackout on Assange. When a major witness recuited by the US had admitted that he had lied about Assange, the mainstream media has largely ignored it. There is no reason for the mainstream media to shun such a bombshell story and also the Jacobin story indeed checks out. https://www.democracynow.org/2021/6/28/julian_assange_extradition_case. So it seems like they are an ivaluable source as they are willing to point out real info that is largely ignored by the mainstream media outlets and as long as their articles are strongly backed by facts from top tier sources, then they have done wrong to deserve the label of unrealible source IMONvtuil (talk) 05:45, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

References

• Bad RfC. Somewhere in all this there might be some serious discussion about a dispute where Jacobin is used or misused in a specific Wikipedia article, if so bring it up separately. Pseudo-voting on this page won't overturn or confirm WP:NOTCENSORED, Jacobin is an opinion magazine. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• @Peter Gulutzan: The entire RfC is based on usage in recently edited articles (which you can see in the initial inquiry). This should be sufficient enough for an RfC as the intention was determining whether the source, Jacobin, was reliable and appropriate to be included in the project.--WMrapids (talk) 21:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Basing an entire RfC on "usage", as if being used justifies an RfC, increases the objectionability. I did look at the "initial inquiry" and searched the talk pages of the named articles, Pedro Castillo and Peruvian General Election, for evidence of a dispute about "Jacobin". I didn't find it. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 because it is generally reliable per the following media bias fact checkers who rate Jacobin as having a left bias, but high factual reliability:

-Media Bias Chart (1)

-Media Bias Chart (2)

-Media Bias Fact Check

-Page University

––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 01:31, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 - I wouldn't use it for any claims of fact, but there are some circumstances where it can be used to sources opinions with attribution. Volunteer Marek 03:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Bad RFC - We should not be rating things just for the sake of rating things, which is essentially what the nom is trying to do here. We risk rating the source as reliable (or not) when the issue is unimportant because "sure, why not?" and thus giving the impression that a source (which in this case is an opinions mag) is reliable in all contexts. The perennial sources list is for perennial sources, meaning sources that are discussed perennially, not just once with no actual contentious matter discussed. It is not sufficient that the source be used X number of times (and less than a thousand cites is not in any sense common usage on Wiki - we have deprecated sources that are still used more times than that). FOARP (talk) 16:09, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 It sometimes mix factual news with opinion, it can be used with attribution. Sea Ane (talk) 16:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 Jacobin is virtually all opinion pieces, its perfectly fine for showing its opinions, but that is at most. This is not even getting into Fringe/ extreme views such as the editor in chief supporting the killing of the Romanov Children [46] or other editors joking about killing other civilians [47] 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Links to World Gazetteer don't work

Moved to WP:URLREQ

RfC: reliability of Crunchbase News versus Crunchbase's user generated information

Should Crunchbase News be treated differently than Crunchbase on the reliable sources noticeboard? Here's a link to an earlier discussion I tried to start without making it an RfC, and it had a limited response: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 321#Crunchbase News And here's a link to the page describing the difference between Crunchbase and Crunchbase News, trying to show journalistic independence. [[48]] TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 23:35, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, it selects journalists and signs up to an ethical policy. It's clearly not user-generated content, although that doesn't necessarily mean it's reliable. It doesn't appear to advertise a complaints process or policy. On reliability, how does Crunchbase News compare to sources like Techcrunch? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:31, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

You can click on news.crunchbase.com   to see all the different Crunchbase News articles that are used as sources on Wikipedia, to decide whether you think they are reliable or not. In my experience, the news reporting, both with Crunchbase News and TechCrunch, is reliable, and no more promotional than other reliable sources. They combine company announcements with interviews and independent reporting. The reason this is someone important is because another editor is mass removing all Crunchbase sources, based on a determination that the main Crunchbase is unreliable, and has included at least one Crunchbase News article as well. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

It may be no more promotional than many other sources we use, but that's not saying much. If it's a RS, then that only applies to the independent reporting-. DGG ( talk ) 18:04, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, which is why each source must be considered on a case by case basis, in the context that it's used. But we certainly don't want blanket wholesale removal of Crunchbase News sources, based on an unrelated determination that user generated Crunchbase is unreliable. And IMHO, even though it's a different conversation, Crunchbase is no more or less reliable than IMDB. Much is user generated, but the underlying info can be easily checked with independent sources. For example, Crunchbase reports on total funding by adding up the different rounds. If three reliable sources say that series A, B and C were $10M, $20M and $70M in order, and then Crunchbase says total funding to date is $100M, it's easier to source the aggregate total using Crunchbase than hunting down the three different announcements in third party press. That should be considered reliable, yet that's the type of info that is being wholesale removed. But first things first - back to Crunchbase News. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 23:51, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know why Crunchbase is deprecated, since I agree it's equivalent to IMDb. Deprecation is a bit arbitrary, though. Techcrunch is okay but it can be a bit promotional. At minimum I wouldn't use Techcrunch to source controversial information, or to source things that sound too hyped up or futuristic, and am unsure if they ever do straight PR. Sourcing a fundraising amount or owners of a company? Seems fine. Sourcing information in Artificial intelligence, or some related exceptional claim about a company? Ehh... ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

The IMDB isn't an independent source, so if Crunchbase is like that, it's a good thing it's not accepted as a source. Crunchbase News seems to be run differently from Crunchbase, though, so whether it's an independent source depends on who writes the news, whether they fact-check the information, whether the content is sponsored by the companies being written about, etc. A proper news source should have a clear editorial policy. If the company obscures this kind of information, there may be reason for concern.—Anne Delong (talk) 18:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Crunchbase News claims an editorial policy, but almost the entire content is press release churnalism - David Gerard (talk) 19:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Here’s their editorial policy. [[49]] Seems pretty straightforward to me. Even Forbes uses their coverage in their articles. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

TechCrunch isn't a clear RS - it's yellow-rated, because it's boosterism that fails WP:ORGIND per previous discussions, linked from WP:RSP#TechCrunch. There's no reason to presume Crunchbase News should be treated as an in the clear NEWSORG, given its parent fails to clear the bar.

There's no discussion yet of the actual usages of Crunchbase News on Wikipedia. We have 82 usages of Crunchbase News. The content used is mostly barely-churned press releases (e.g., [50] [51] [52] [53] [54]) with a bit of the sort of "analysis" that's indistinguishable from boosterism (e.g., [55]). You'd have to be really stretching to consider this in any way comparable to independent third-party journalism on the companies.

Even if we declare that the "news" site isn't technically deprecated, it's the sort of stuff that's at best a slightly worse version of the primary sources it's based on. Unusable for notability - it's precisely the sort of promotional boosterism that leads to funding rounds having been considered not usable for notability or WP:CORPDEPTH - and barely usable for facts.

I should note also: going through the Crunchbase backlog, a disproportionate number of these articles are just corporate spam, or barely above that. I keep hitting things warranting PRODs and speedies, orphans created by an SPA and not substantively edited in the several years since their creation, undisclosed paid editing, etc. I keep having to apply {{advert}} and/or {{puffery}} tags. Even in non-spam articles, Crunchbase or Crunchbase News adds information primarily of interest to the company's boardroom.

As far as Wikipedia goes, Crunchbase is in practice a trashy source largely used for puffery, and looking for Crunchbase links is a good way to track down promotional editing - David Gerard (talk) 08:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

@David Gerard: Thanks for sharing your perspective. I also spend a lot of time editing company articles, and I think you can find paid editing by tracking any publication. I'll take another shot at clarifying the difference between Crunchbase and Crunchbase News. The former is a highly visible crowdsourced data repository that summarizes company information in one place, and the info can be easily checked and corrected. Like Bloomberg, they make their money selling access to the info, but thanks to crowdsourcing and open access to the data, Crunchbase is more up to date. For my VC friends, Crunchbase is their go-to source for funding info. Crunchbase info is collected like Wikipedia, except at Wikipedia, it's considered more reliable because we show our sources. Crunchbase News is an independent news organization that, like any other media outlet, might use a press release as the starting point of any story, but they also add independent reporting and info they get from interviews. I'm curious if you have any examples of any of the info you removed from articles that was sourced using either Crunchbase or Crunchbase News being incorrect, and not simply because the info changed since it was originally added to our articles? Just as an example, the first item you linked, which sourced Greenlight Financial's $215 Series C, was actually used as a source by Forbes in its followup coverage, confirming the info you removed.[[56]] If it's good enough for Forbes, it should be good enough for us, right? Nonetheless, I'd be OK with adding a separate line to the reliable sources noticeboard for Crunchbase News and assigning it the same yellow rating as Techcrunch. That way, its reporting can be considered on a case by case basis and not blanket removed. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd say Wikipedia has nothing to be gained by adding Crunchbase News, except more corporate spam. And TechCrunch should be moved to "generally unreliable" in the manner of a tabloid that hasn't been caught actually fabricating information, but whose content is basically trash. Because it, and Crunchbase News, are basically trash. You were seriously claiming these could be placed with reliable NEWSORGs, and that's just incorrect. They are press-release churnalism that should be removed from Wikipedia, and absolutely not encouraged - David Gerard (talk) 14:36, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Can you address my points? TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 05:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Your proposals don't propose anything that would add to independent third-party RS coverage in Wikipedia. I don't think either belongs as a source in Wikipedia except in unusual circumstances, for the reasons I stated. Do you understand why churnalism is only a slight laundering of straight-up press releases, and is a net negative to Wikipedia that should not be enabled or encouraged? - David Gerard (talk) 09:57, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

The source you surprisingly removed again from Crunchbase News in spite of this discussion being ongoing was used to show where the subject’s company was located, and how many people it had. [[57]] Are you implying that that information is incorrect? And indeed, would you please show me the inaccuracies in any of the sources you are mass removing right now, so we can see the harm you are claiming? I already showed above how one source you don’t like WP:IDONTLIKEIT was used by Forbes, so please address that. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I removed it editorially with due consideration as churnalism - that is, a press release reprint being presented to readers as a journalistic source of quality, which it isn't. Do you understand why churnalism is only a slight laundering of straight-up press releases, and is a net negative to Wikipedia that should not be enabled or encouraged? - David Gerard (talk) 19:41, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with using it for such noncontroversial information. Benjamin (talk) 04:06, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

• Related RFC: Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#rfc_EA1AAEC - David Gerard (talk) 10:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
• I think the question a bit misphrased. The RSN entry simply is not about Crunchbase news, RSN has no listing and the Crunchbase listing and reasons shown simply is not applicable. Whether they should ... I think it would help clarify the situation and RSN selection criteria, but think that criteria is how many times it is cited. So just go ahead and use Crunchbase news.

Also, I want to say RS is what sets the criteria, so whether any work counts as RS depends on context and that work and that can overcome the reputation of whatever venue it appears in and whatever general remarks RSN has about the venue. That NYT printed an opinion piece by John Doe does not make that content any more RS than John Doe because the context is John Doe as author covering John Doe opinion. That SkyNews printed a statement by BP does make that statement more RS, because the context is SkyNews editorial control and the reporter editing it portraying it as fact. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 11:56, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

RfC - Moneylife

I’ve been researching Indian institutions in the past couple of weeks for a personal project. I noticed that Moneylife has been used as a reference on Indian-related pages and came here to check its credibility. I first spotted it on the National Stock Exchange of India. After that, I found it on a few other pages, as seen below.

University of Mumbai List of chairmen of the State Bank of India

There doesn’t seem to be anything controversial about the coverage that I’ve found so far, but I’m a bit unsure about its editorial standards and therefore accuracy. Should its use as a reference be discouraged or is it okay to use? FelixFLB (talk) 12:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

FelixFLB, I'm not sure if this qualifies for an RfC. There hasn't been any previous discussion on it and there is no visible dispute over its use.

Regarding the source itself, I am familiar with it and in my opinion it's a tabloid equivalent in financial news. I would recommend skepticism towards it in general and avoiding it in anything that might appear to be controversial. Their coverage can be quite misleading at times, for instance they tend to sensationalise the initiation of any investigation or even mundane penalties as a primer to a big "scam". There are also potential BLP issues in there. That said, I don't remember them reporting something that's outright false, so I would say its reliability is something along the lines of "additional considerations apply". Tayi Arajakate _Talk 14:07, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

My concern is similar to yours, is it just a tabloid-style publication or is it worse than that. I also found Sucheta Dalal, who seems to be the Chief Editor. She refers to herself as a scam investigator on her website. I get the feeling the more I look at it that it's just a blog for her dressed up as a major publication? I've continued looking into this, so will post a more in-depth comment shortly. FelixFLB (talk) 15:31, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Comment - To expand on my initial post, Moneylife and Sucheta Dalal made allegations about National Stock Exchange of India in 2015, which can viewed on Wikipedia here. It led to a defamation lawsuit by NSE against the publication shortly afterward. Moneylife then set up a dedicated topic on its website here where it lists various articles about the stock exchange and even has the topic in its navigation bar (seems highly unethical?). The majority of the articles in the topic/section are titled "scam" or "illegal." FelixFLB (talk) 15:54, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

FelixFLB, okay looking at their coverage of the NSE colocation controversy, I'll revise what I had stated before and just say that they are generally unreliable, i.e should not be used anywhere. There are glaring inaccuracies in these articles, for instance the site calls it an "algorithm scam", colocation itself has nothing to do with the use of algorithms in trading. There are articles in there which practically allege fraud and malpractice against officials at NSE and state that NSE was fined by SEBI due to that. The allegations themselves are unproven, if it were otherwise they would face jail time, SEBI dropped the charges and never took it to court, NSE was fined for not implementing adequate safeguards against exploits in the system.

Although the site isn't per se a blog (has multiple authors and supposedly has an editorial process), this is blog quality, probably worse. The NSE article also needs some cleanup. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 18:42, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with a lot of that. This was the main article today on the homepage, again about NSE. No other news outlet seems to have picked it up, and the grammar is terrible. "brokers have a membership of the Bombay Stock Exchange (BSE) they are suspended by that exchange too." FelixFLB (talk) 14:20, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I've been going through some of their recent articles and here are a few observations from that. They seems to have a disproportionate focus on the stock market, most of it is not attributed to any author but to "staff", there's poor research and frequent typos. This is neither really a financial news outlet or a personal finance website, and their editorial oversight is clearly inadequate.

Honestly, it appears somewhat predatory, as in its content looks like its targeted towards a specific type of small stock traders who are apprehensive of institutions and larger players. They have this disclaimer, which does not invoke confidence. They just repeatedly state that they are not liable for the accuracy of their material. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 19:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

The actual reliability of a source is it's expertise and objectivity with respect to the item which cited it. IMO any overall generalization about any source is faulty. Such should be eliminated and certainly not expanded. North8000 (talk) 23:38, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

RFC Tghat.com

Greetings! Can you all weigh in on the reliability of this source > https://www.tghat.com/victim-list/ and whether it's should be deprecated or blacklisted? It is being used for articles related to Tigray war (claimed) massacres such as Adi Hageray massacre, Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 05:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

• Adi Hageray massacre diff source 2 and 4 is supporting the perpetrators and victims section. Issue: It's based on Tghat sources, not published elsewhere, no external sources.
• The vast majority on the Tghat list are without any external sources claiming ‘family of victims’ or ‘relatives and witnesses, email’ as source.
• The second most numerous source mentioned are links to social media posts(facebook & twitter posts), it is also using Assena TV as a source, but this is also a twitter link https://twitter.com/AtvAsena/status/1368960273831301123
• Then it's followed by opinion sites & self published sources such as Ethiopia insight(same source mentioned twice) https://www.ethiopia-insight.com/2021/02/03/for-years-i-opposed-the-tplf-but-i-also-oppose-this-war-on-tigray/ & Tigray Online which links it to a pdf (same pdf used as source 10 times) http://www.tigraionline.com/ethio-eritrean-crimes-in-za-anbessa.pdf
• Depracated source Dailymail is mentioned at least 3 times (same source used 3 times) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-9054001/Terrified-survivors-recount-attacks-civilians-Tigray.html
• Then there are very few sources linked to humanitarian organizations or news sites such as MSF but here you will find also discrepancies between TGHAT list which claims 31 victims and is listed twice using the same MSF source, the external MSF source which reported 3 victims. https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/article/ethiopia-horrified-brutal-murder-three-msf-colleagues Another one is the Telegraph, however the same source is posted 4 times on the list https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/bodies-torn-pieces-ethiopian-eritrean-troops-accused-massacre/ Ethiopian Human Rights Comission is mentioned 24 times(same source 24 times) which is one pdf source published by Addis Standards https://addisstandard.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Brief-Monitoring-Report-Humera-Dansha-and-Bissober-.pdf

The very few reliable sources are mentioned several times over on the list, seemingly to inflate the number of reliable source, even inflated it makes less than 10%(estimate) of the list.

The Tghat source is also used at Sheraro massacre, February 2021 Wukro massacre, Grizana massacre, Dansha massacre and ​potentially more articles, where they cite Tghat Relatives and Eyewitnesses which has no external sources beyond Tghat.

Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 05:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

No apparent editorial oversight; this appears to be a place for people to go to self-report. I would say it should never be used directly by WP, and I'd be surprised if reliable sources are using it for more than digging out anecdotal reports. —valereee (talk) 09:12, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Tghat (https://www.tghat.com/) is a relatively new news site based on community (redacted) contributions.

The argument made here is that Tghat’s verified list of civilian victims of the Tigray War (https://www.tghat.com/victim-list/) and Tghat's article on the Adi Hageray massacre (https://www.tghat.com/2021/03/19/a-preliminary-report-on-an-adi-hageray-massacre/) would not be reliable, and should not be used as WP references.

For the Adi Hageray article the argument is that its content isn't reported by any other independent media outlet and so should not be taken as reliable. I am not aware, indeed, of any other media outlet reporting on that; unfortunately the war situation and censorship by the Ethiopian Media Authority (https://twitter.com/EUinEthiopia/status/1415692335099305994) make access to and reporting of massacres a difficult task.

Yet, there is sufficient evidence that Tghat is duly checking the veracity of the information and that they do a serious effort to make sure documentation of massacres is accurate. Here are some examples of massacres documented by Tghat and by international media, where, thanks to their local network, Tgat was first to document the massacre.

• An article in The Guardian on the Abuna Yemata massacre (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/01/eritrean-soldiers-killed-19-civilians-in-latest-tigray-atrocity-locals-claim - 1 June 2021) confirms Tghat's article about the same massacre (https://www.tghat.com/2021/05/24/a-massacre-in-abuna-yemata-guh-at-the-foot-of-the-famous-rock-hewn-church/ - 24 May 2021).
• Shortly after its occurrence, Tghat reported the Debre Abbay massacre (https://tghat.com/2021/01/12/massacres-in-bora-selewa-and-debre-abay/ - 12 January 2021; and then https://tghat.com/2021/02/08/a-graphic-footage-of-the-debre-abay-massacre-what-do-we-know-about-it/ on 8 February 2021); it became world news after a further detailed and graphic article in The Daily Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/19/should-have-finished-survivors-ethiopian-army-implicated-brutal/ 19 February 2021).
• Tghat first reported the Bora massacre (https://tghat.com/2021/01/12/massacres-in-bora-selewa-and-debre-abay/ - 12 January 2021; and with more detail on 12 March: https://www.tghat.com/2021/03/12/the-bora-massacre/); Tghat’s initial reporting proved true, as can be read in the Los Angeles Times on 19 March 2021 (https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-03-19/ethiopia-tigray-war-massacre-bora).

Hence the facts reported by Tghat were later confirmed by media outlets. We can conclude that reliable sources are using Tghat for more than digging out anecdotal reports. And also that, so far, internationally recognised journalists reporting on massacres in the Tigray War never contradicted Tghat’s findings.

On the victim list, the argument is that Tghat’s sources are the family of victims and social media. The information on victims whose sources are family or relatives are confirmed by Tghat calling them. Information including relevant social media posts by family members and friends are kept because they are useful contacts for future investigations.

Tghat’s victims list is a sourceless list, mainly because no media has been allowed for months and even when allowed, they couldn't do too much stories because of the security situation. Victim collection initiatives in other conflicts also rely heavily on accurate keeping of personal contributions.

Until Dawit S Gondaria comes up with information/data that contradicts Tghat’s reported massacres or victim list, or provides other hard evidence that this painstaking accounting of massacres and victims is flawed, Tghat should be considered as a reliable and even one of the top sources when it comes to casualties of the Tigray War. Rastakwere (talk) 08:16, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Rastakwere's summary is fair: Tghat is often the first to report specific war crimes in the Tigray War, and its reporting is later followed up by mainstream Western media and by academic sources, with no obvious significant discrepancies. There does appear to be editorial oversight.

Regarding the specific comment by Dawit Ethiopian Human Rights Comission is mentioned 24 times(same source 24 times) which is one pdf source published by Addis Standards (sic): the Ethiopian Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has gained in indepedendence and resources since former political prisoner Daniel Bekele's nomination as its head. It unfortunately only publishes its reports, such as the Humera, Dansha and Bissober report, on a GAFAM-run etherpad instead of on its own website, but that doesn't make it an unreliable source - it only shows that the EHRC lacks basic internet skills and understanding. However, the fact that Addis Standard ("Standard", not "Standards"; a major Ethiopian English-language newspaper with a reputation for independence from the various federal governments that Ethiopia has had) hosts an identical copy of the pdf (same sha512sum) adds to the EHRC's credibility rather than weakens it. Tghat publishes its victim list on the same GAFAM-run etherpad; this again is unwise and violates both authors' and readers' privacy and security, but it does not make the general reporting itself unreliable. Boud (talk) 16:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm concerned that the victims list published by Tghat seems to be primarily sourced from Facebook. —valereee (talk) 17:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Basing a list off Facebook is of concern.JoeZ451 (talk) 18:33, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Look i feel really bad responding to this, i even feel guilty to some extent discussing about war crimes and victims and i even thought about foregoing this discussion, hoewever since i iniated this discussion because of all the reasons mentioned above, i'm hoping Rastakwere can adress the concerns i mentioned earlier such as the discrepancy when Tghat cites the very few reliable sources and gives a different casualty number on the Tghat site, than from the reliable source.●@Boud if you read carefully i never doubted the EHRC & Addis Standard as a reliable source i mentioned them as the few reliable sources on Tghat, hoewever the EHRC has been mentioned in the Tghat list 24 times for the same event. I just pointed out Tghat inflating the mention of reliable sources by listing the same event and the same source more than twice. With that said i will now respond to Rastakwere summary:

• Your first point about supposed confirmed by Guardian, Quote: The testimony comes primarily from three individuals but is difficult to confirm in all its aspects. it is more appropriate to say it's alleged, not confirmed. Also question marks about the content of Tghat report vs the Guardian report.
• I have no acces to the telegraph, but i'm interested in reading it, so i'm going to ask Wikipedia Resource Exchange whether they can provide the article. I'm also interested to see whether this World News has been reported by other reliable sources. Update i received the article thanks to Resourche Exchange. This article mentions Quote: a pro-Tigrayan

blog reported Ethiopian soldiers had killed 100 civilians at the same monastery on Jan 5. no credit given to Tghat by name and not corresponding with the date given by @Rastakwere, but i stress, there's no doubt killings happend at Debre Abay since this is a video footage, and according to the article under investigation by EHRC.

• About the Bora massacre, the LA times describes Tghat as quote: Tghat, a news site run by pro-TPLF activists, reported on the Bora killings Jan. 12, along with another massacre that reportedly took place in an area called Debre Abay. puts into question about the neutrality of Tghat as a source. The LA report also said, quote: “However, the verification of this information was, and remains, extremely challenging,” Pau Sole said. so probably more appropriate to say it's alleged. I searched whether it has been reported by a reliable source elsewhere, it has been mentioned in a opinion piece by the Guardian [[58]], don't know if this falls under the Guardian blogs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources. Also question marks about the content of Bora report by Tghat vs that of LA times.

For all the reasons mentioned above, i think it would be better to mention directly mention reliable sources than through Tghat Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 18:59, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Clarification needed: The original posting of this RfC leads to confusion about whether the discussion is about the reliability of Tghat in general, or Tghat's victim list. I think that further comments should clarify if they're about Tghat or rather about Tghat's victim list. My main comment above was about Tghat in general, not about the victim list, though I did comment in my side comment that posting the victim list on a GAFAM-run etherpad is unwise. The victim list itself is in the spirit of the Iraq Body Count project. Boud (talk) 19:47, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Clarification given: It's about Tghat in general that is why i put Tghat.com in the title, but i specified the problem of the victim list because it was actually used as a source on several articles(mentioned above and potentially other articles) which has not been mentioned by any reliable/indepedent sources at all. Here's for example a preliminary report published by Tghat based on eyewithness accounts [[59]] & [[60]] the same is on the victims list, Relatives and eyewitneses without external sources. So Tghat and the victims list are interlinked. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 20:17, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

RfC: Business Insider music coverage

Is Business Insider (renamed Insider in February 2021) generally reliable for its popular music coverage (reviews, ratings, etc.)? Example article, example review 1, review 2. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 14:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

FYI here is the most recent RfC on this source. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 324#RfC: Business Insider I'm not sure if there is any reason to consider their reliability on popular music coverage separately. GA-RT-22 (talk) 17:44, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• Please see my responses below in the survey. In short, this RfC was intended to be narrower in scope than the last one to hopefully achieve some consensus around its reliability in a topic area. I unfortunately had bad luck in wording it. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 12:52, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Survey (Business Insider)

• Sure, why not, since ratings/reviews are all subjective anyway. It's reliable for the opinion of the publication or the author, which is the same as any other review of a piece of art. I would say it's mainstream enough where it's views could reasonably be of note in the reception section of an article, which is the real question. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Reviews and ratings are not a reliability issue. Any source is self-evidently reliable for their own opinion pieces, which is what reviews and ratings are. Whether or not any one review or rating or any other opinion is relevant to a particular article is a discussion for another venue, but strictly speaking, a source publishing its own opinion on a subject is always perfectly reliable for Wikipedia text that reports that opinion. --Jayron32 18:54, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Clearly permitted under WP:V and WP:RS. I can't put it more clearly or succinctly than the first two respondents, but just for the sake of registering my support: WP:PRIMARY sources are always valid as regards their own perspectives and the need for editorial controls simply doesn't apply in these circumstances. As Jayron notes, whether a particular review is useful and appropriate under the WP:DUE and WP:ONUS tests in any given instance is a separate question that needs to be addressed by WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in each case, but for a certainty, there is no compelling high level reason to establish a ban on such reviews from this one outlet, any more than there would be for any other source providing a subjective artistic critique of any work. This is kind of so self-evident under our basic policies on sourcing that I wonder about the history that brought this inquiry here. Snow ^{let's rap} 21:22, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Snow Rise: I apparently seldom have much luck wording RfCs. I saw that BI was "no consensus" at RSP following its status being raised as a question at a peer review, so wanted to see if we could get some consensus for a narrower scope RfC to a topic area. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 22:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

  @GA-RT-22, Jayron32, and ScottishFinnishRadish: ^ --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 22:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

  Ah, I see: in that context the narrow-purpose RfC makes sense, as it will give clarity for anyone who might have non-WP:SECONDARY/WP:MEDRS uses in mind. Good call! Snow ^{let's rap} 03:21, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• Yes for statements attributed to their authors. Obviously. So you can say "Jane Doe of Business Insider says this is the best song ever written." But you can't say "This is the best song ever written" and source that to Jane Doe's review. For statements of fact I would use it, but carefully. "This song was recorded in 2014" is probably ok. "Taylor Swift was drunk when she wrote this song" I would leave out unless I had another source. GA-RT-22 (talk) 21:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• It is probably as good as most other sites reviewing music, which is to say pretty bad. Vici Vidi (talk) 07:34, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
• This is a question of WP:UNDUE really, not "reliability" for subjective opinions. So this really isn't the board for that - David Gerard (talk) 07:38, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. Business Insider is a site that publishes reviews and reports news, just like any other music publication. Their articles are fine as sources as long as it comes with attribution. BawinV (talk) 09:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
• Yes - being aware of WP:CONTEXTMATTERS distinction in any review between facts and the evaluation of the author as said by GA-RT-22... A “recorded in 2014” is fact “best ever” is their opinion. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:48, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Yes - Reliable depending of course on context, including for notability. FOARP (talk) 16:02, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Yes Ratings and reviews are the opinion of the author and Business Insider is like any other sites that do reviews. Sea Ane (talk) 20:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Yes So long as it comes with attribution. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 07:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
• Yes for things like that.Thelostone41 (talk) 04:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Boston Phoenix

I recently reverted an edit to the Dale Bozzio article concerning an animal welfare conviction, noting that there had been a consensus on the Talk page several years previously not to include it in the article. Part of the reason for this decision was the alleged unreliability of the Boston Phoenix, a local arts and entertainment paper. Is there any particular reason this source should be considered unreliable? Do they have a record for publishing false information or getting sued? MaxBrowne2 (talk) 01:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

MaxBrowne2, I don't think that issue was squarely confronted; the issue was more whether the conviction was a noteworthy event in that person's life. @Drmies: you were involved in that discussion but it's been a while, do you still consider it good law? Mackensen (talk) 02:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Mackensen, it's a BLP issue still. A (now-retired) user, User:Doc2234, gave some pretty convincing arguments for why that paper (or at least that article) was questionable, but the bigger problem is this: a. apparently she was convicted on only one charge and served less than 30 days ("fewer"?), b. the thing is kind of like a magnet and has had a tendency for BLP-violating accretion, and c. if the Boston Phoenix is the only decent source for this, then what reason do we have to include this information? Drmies (talk) 12:39, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Well "Simon" was groovy, as is anything connected with Prince, and so is anything connected with Zappa... I'm inclined to like the woman. But isn't her animal welfare conviction sufficiently documented? MaxBrowne2 (talk) 17:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I confess that I spend less time with BLPs than others, but I'm unsure I buy the argument that we should exclude someone's criminal conviction from their biography because it's immaterial to their career as a musician. We certainly don't take that line with sportspeople, or actors, or even other musicians for that matter. A person's life is what it is, and we see them in the round. The repeated argument on the talk people that the publications could be sued for libel seems specious, at best, and makes me disinclined to take the user's other arguments seriously. This feels much like special pleading in this case and I'm at a loss to understand why. When we write about coaches and football players we include DUIs and speeding tickets, and we're arguing here about an animal welfare conviction? Either our standards need to come up or come down.

Anyway, main idea. The Boston Phoenix was an alt-weekly that apparently won some awards and like many alt-weeklies went under in the last decade. It is used elsewhere on Wikipedia, apparently without incident or comment. I see no real foundation for the attempts to undermine its credibility during this particular discussion; no one has disputed that they got the facts right. I would note that they are not the sole source for this story either. Mackensen (talk) 17:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

One could certainly argue that her brief prison sentence was unfair; it's not like she was a threat to the public or anything, despite her previous conviction for (gasp) marijuana posession. But it seems strange to omit a notable person's imprisonment from their biography. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 18:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

It's not strange at all to think a 90-day stint in a county lockup on a matter that has no connection whatsoever to a person's career or notability, with a ony single source paying any attention to it, would be omitted. --Calton | Talk 16:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Calton, though, to be clear, more than one source reported it, so that doesn't seem germane here, and that would seem to enhance the Phoenix's credibility if anything. Mackensen (talk) 19:51, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think that the Boston Phoenix is RS. However, if someone wants a source from a more established newspaper, wikimail me and I'll reply with an article from the New Hampshire Union Leader. John M Baker (talk) 20:43, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Well right, and could you just cut out the middleman and add it? For a negative, contentious fact in a BLP you'd want either an AAA-level source (which neither the Union Leader nor the Phoenxix are, as they're both biased and both probably have mediocre fact-checking), or two sources.

As to the BLP issue, that's for the BLP board, but in a nutshell what I like to consider is these things:

• So, first of all, the Wikipedia is really big, and an obscure private person (like Dale Bozzio) is really little. We can say whatever we want about her, especially if it's probably true, and there's really nothing she can do easily do about it, is there. (Sucks to be her, but she could have chosen to be an accountant and not a singer and she wouldn't have come into our crosshairs, so that's on her.) Second of all, for most not-very-famous people, their Wikipedia article is their main public face. For Bozzio, as is not uncommon, our article is her first google result. And other sites copy from or look to us. Third of all, while the Wikipedia may not last long (or may), the database -- the articles -- may we be around in one form or another for a long time, and be passed on further. So it's not just "we create her public face" but "we create her public face -- forever".
• And then, I say to myself, "with great power comes great responsibility". And I remind myself that I'm just as aswim in the moral world here at my keyboard as when I trip an old lady or give a dollar to a crippled orphan. I remind myself that "punching down" is a real phrase because it describes a real phenomenon, and that I'm not here to make people sad, hurt their feelings, hurt their reputation, if I can reasonably avoid it.
• So then, I ask myself, is there any possible way to justify not writing bad things about this person, without being unfair to the reader or doing egregious violence to the project's mission. If the bad thing is central to understanding the entity and what they have accomplished (or suffered) such that they're worthwhile learning about, then it becomes a difficult decision to weigh. If a reader would justifiably feel betrayed that we gave her a false understanding of the entity by withholding the data, then it becomes a difficult question to weigh. If it's not, the answer is easy! I like questions with easy answers!Herostratus (talk) 23:06, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't feel comfortable jumping into this BLP issue (especially since I edit under my real name), so I'm not going to edit the article myself. However, if someone else wants sources, I can provide them. The Union Leader article is a good one and gives a fairly balanced view, but there are additional sources available, including the Associated Press, so this definitely is not an RS issue. John M Baker (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Just because you haven't heard of her doesn't make her "obscure". She is well known to pop and rock music fans; I'm pretty sure Lady Gaga has heard of her. The suspicion is that if properly sourced negative information about a person is not included, the article is being whitewashed. I don't agree that there should be a presumption in favour of excluding such information. Problem is, when people tried to introduce the information, the quality of the sources was questioned, spuriously in my opinion. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 23:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Maybe, but the point is to keep the information out of the article, even in the face of the existence of people like you. Whatever it takes. I'm more concerned about the moral issue than worrying about being spurious on a website, see WP:IAR and WP:1Q. She's obscure. Maddonna or Beyonce I don't worry too much about because they are big enough to not be hurt by anything we say. This gal, not so much. it's not that I haven't heard of her, it's that google hasn't, much.

And of course we want to whitewash articles about obscure persons. Holy shit why would we not. We are not the Tattler. Altho not everyone thinks that, apparently. Herostratus (talk) 03:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Well that's weird. How famous does someone have to be before negative information may be included? Are there some objective criteria for this? Given that she has a fairly substantial article and quite a bit of discography, she can't be that obscure. If they're notable enough to have a wikipedia article, they're notable enough to have a prison sentence noted. And citing IAR is never helpful in discussions, it's basically a catch-all excuse. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 10:18, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Well a catchall excuse to stop someone who is... not a gentleman... from deciding these things, if that's all that's available, will have to do. IAR is a key pillar of this project, one of the Five Pillars, and if you don't like tough luck. We are not rulebound and we are not the DMV or anything like that. And of course it's subjective. Most things in life are... How expensive a shirt you want, whether you want to hang out with Tim, if you would rather have Thai or Mexican tonite, if you want to keep watching the game if the Sox are down 7-1... etc etc etc etc. This is life. Do you think there are rules written down for all this? Is not editing the Wikipedia part of life? Do you image that you remove yourself from the moral universe when you sit down to type? You don't. You never can, not ever for one moment.

We hopefully have the sense that God gave sheep and can use our wits to figure these things out. If I write bad stuff about Kim Jong Un or Barack Obama or Mick Jagger, that's not a huge deal, because they won't care and why should they. They have a public face way too big for use to do much damage. This person, not so much. Yes like most everything in this world it is subjective. My subjective opinion is that she's small enough compared to use that it's punching down to be on her case about a one-time thing that's not central to what we want to present to the reader.

My take is, given the choice between fucking people over and not, I choose the latter. Other people might feel differently, but I will hinder them if I may. Herostratus (talk) 22:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

in the face of the existence of people like you, Well a catchall excuse to stop someone who is... not a gentleman... I refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v Pressdram. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 20:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

If you think the WP:BLP policy is wrong there are places to effect that change. This isn't one of them. Do you have any views on the reliability of the Boston Phoenix? You've opined on the reliability of its fact-checking but I missed where you gave evidence of that assertion. Thanks, Mackensen (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

• Maybe, but the point is to keep the information out of the article, even in the face of the existence of people like you. That is uncalled for, especially since MaxBrowne2 actually removed the material in question from the article (in keeping with the previous RFC) and only then came here to ask for additional opinions. I think that as far as this goes, given that there's plentiful secondary coverage among reliable sources (which should be added to the article if we do include this, since we shouldn't rely on just one source), the hard requirements of WP:BLP and WP:RS are clearly satisfied, but that that doesn't necessarily mandate inclusion - there's a huge gap between stuff that we can include and stuff that we must include. In this case it has a reasonable amount of coverage but is not central to the subject's notability, so I think it's basically just an editorial call on our part based on complex stuff like how much is in the article overall and therefore how WP:DUE this would be relative to the biography as a whole... as well as to what extent the article subject is a public figure. But those are more questions for WP:NPOVN and WP:BLPN than here; WP:RS, at least, is satisfied. --Aquillion (talk) 05:35, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

"Fame/popularity" is not really a policy based argument. High/low-profile-ness is, and that subject seems to be high profile as per WP:LPI. WP:BLPPUBLIC says: In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. There are multiple third-party reliable sources, [61][62][63][64][65][66][67] (...). At a skim it seems no editor actually disputes that the event occurred, and AP is a HQRS, so BLP/RS objections seem a bit iffy. High profile individuals aren't eligible for the exclusionary protection of WP:BLPCRIME either, not that it'd be particularly relevant since there's a conviction. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

The only thing I would add as a consideration (I don't know for sure) is if this something closer to just celebrity gossip rather than a "serious" conviction. We routinely do not post "everyday infractions" like speeding tickets, drunk driving, etc. unless that is a serious pattern for a public figure that merits enduring coverage in sources. It is hard (but not impossible) to find RSes about this conviction but there seems to be little more than news that she received and served the punishment for it, and it hasnt been brought up since 2009 that I can easily see. This question is far more subjective whether inclusion is merited, but we can state that it is not an RS issue that prevents inclusion since some quality RS sourcing exists. --Masem (t) 00:02, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, drunk driving is often covered in articles (eg Tiger Woods, Justin Bieber, Michelle Rodriguez). But in any case I don't think animal-cruelty conviction ... Bozzio was originally hit with 13 animal-cruelty charges, which stemmed from her failed attempt to "save" feral and sick cats from the New Hampshire woods. Two cats were found dead and 12 were put down following an indeterminable period of neglect falls into the category of everyday infractions. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:26, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

That's why I'm saying its not a clear cut line. To take Bieber, he is well known to have a long list of confrontations with the law while younger, so it can been seen to make sense to talk about them that way. Here, there are sufficiently reliable sources to include it, and the baseline of PUBLICFIGURE is met, but its one singular case that seems isolated. I'm not saying it can't but there's reasonable arguments that could be made in a consensus discussion to omit. Just that saying we can't include because there aren't good RSes is not correct. --Masem (t) 05:20, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

• The Phoenix (Boston/Providence/Portland -- they were very similar and shared a lot of material) is/was, as mentioned above, a pretty reliable alternative weekly paper. I'd put it about on par with the Village Voice? Editorial oversight, a mix of arts/entertainment, news, investigation, and opinion. As for whether it merits inclusion in the article, that's not really for this noticeboard. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:55, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

BuzzFeed News source on 2021 Maricopa County presidential ballot audit

Summary

Source: Mimms, Sarah. (July 27, 2021) "Twitter Permanently Suspended Nine Accounts That Had Been Promoting Pro-Trump "Audits" Of The 2020 Election". BuzzFeed News.
Question: Is this source reliable enough to use in the article? Does it comply with Wikipedia rules and guidelines?
Notes:

• Discussion has taken place at Talk:2021 Maricopa_County presidential ballot audit#Various Twitter accounts suspended.
• See WP:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#BuzzFeed_News for the general consensus about BuzzFeed News.

––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 03:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

Key points by SinglePorpoiseAccount

• @Horse Eye's Back: Basically I compared it against the first suggested source in the thread[68] and came to the conclusion that the BuzzFeed News article had more or less the same basic facts regarding the topic, but the article from PNT was worded in a fairly neutral manner, and aside from a few opinionated angles. It's not the source in question but it's what I'm comparing it against. Please also note that to stay consistent we should review the BFN article as it was written at the point the discussion began, it has since been silently edited and there is a risk it will happen again over the coming days.[69]

• The title reads as follows:

  Twitter Suspended Nine Accounts That Had Been Promoting Pro-Trump "Audits" Of The 2020 Election

  Note the framing here; the audits are mentioned with the "Pro-Trump" qualifier, and there are quotation marks around "Audits" as if it wasn't an actual audit. The way I see it both of these points of framing go against WP:PARTISAN in the context of the Wikipedia article, readers who are Trump supporters and/or support the audits will likely read that as an attack on their opinions rather than a statement of fact. This is a problem because as seen on the talk page in general there are multiple readers claiming the Wikipedia article as a whole is biased, therefore we should take extra care to make sure the article sources aren't biased where possible. Furthermore both points are opinions. The audits in question are neither proven to be pro-Trump nor illegitimate, and thus cannot be regarded as statements of fact with sufficient confidence.
• Second paragraph contains the following:

  Among those suspended was the official Twitter account for the ongoing, Republican-led audit in Arizona, which is being overseen by a contractor who has spread false conspiracy theories, including in a recent pro-Trump movie.

  There is an inline link as a source for "false conspiracy theories"[70], but that page itself has some framing issues as the editorial commentary is inline but the rebuttals are collected at the bottom. Nevertheless, they are at least somewhat relevant to the topic of the article, even though the Tweets aren't from any of the aforementioned 9 accounts in question. The "including in a recent pro-Trump movie" part is completely irrelevant though, it's clearly meant to discredit Doug Logan, which according to the wording of that sentence is implied to be "overseeing" the official Twitter account of the Maricopa audit. Also note that the Twitter account isn't mentioned by name and the inline link is broken (even in the current revision as of 2021-08-06 06:34 CET).

These are just two of the points I've used to determine that the BFN article is unsuitable in the context of the Wikipedia article in question. The Maricopa audit is a very controversial subject in general and special care should be taken to make sure one side doesn't feel unfairly treated in the Wikipedia article. It is my understanding that a neutral point of view is extra important in controversial articles, especially while a semi-lock is in place. To that point; I see no reason the BFN article has any advantage over the initially suggested PNT article either. Both support the claim that Twitter accounts related to the audit were banned, and the Wikipedia article doesn't (and perhaps shouldn't at this point in time) go any further than that.

To summarize in a single sentence; I have major concerns with quality, POV, and framing issues in the BFN article, and there is already a more widely supported alternate source (PNT) which is sufficient to support the claim in the Wikipedia article with little to none of the same issues. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 04:49, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Key points by FormalDude

• Here's some of the corroborations that I brought up in support of using the source:

1. Corroborating source (AZ Central) for the statement from the article that the audit is unauthentic.

2. Corroborating source (USA Today) for this portion of the article "the official audit account had spread misinformation about the 2020 election."

3. Corroborating source (NPR) for this portion of the article "The audit accounts are just one way that pro-Trump figures have continued to push the lie that the election was stolen from him."

4. Corroborating source (AZ Central) & (Vice) for the portion of the article regarding Twitter's ban of official audit accounts. Added at 22:06, 3 August 2021 (UTC) by 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk)

5. Corroborating source in general: "Inside Arizona’s election audit, GOP fraud fantasies live on". AP News.

6. Corroborating source in general: "Debunking Trump’s Latest Arizona Election Claims" FactCheck.org.

––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 03:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

New comments

• @SinglePorpoiseAccount: do you think you can sum up the argument you make on the talk page against the use of this source? I’m having a hard time following it and its so long at this point that its easier just to ask. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
• @FormalDude: As a source for which article content? - Ryk72 ^talk 03:49, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

  Wanting to use this source in the lede section for "The audit stirred controversy due to extensive previous efforts by Trump and his allies to overturn the election and due to assertions of rule violations and irregularities in the conduct of the count, leading to claims that the audit is essentially a disinformation campaign." ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 03:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

This was not the use discussed on the talk page. This is another use which is already sourced from two other sources. The use discussed on the talk page was the topic "Various Twitter accounts suspended" and possibly extended to "Although it may still warrant mentioning that Twitter has called out the Arizona state legislature for essentially lying on their platform." (no clear draft exists). SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 05:04, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

We also discussed my edit that you reverted which put the source in the lede section for use that I mentioned above. I also think the source should be used for the topic "Various twitter accounts suspended". ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 05:10, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The source was not used in the lede section prior to the discussion of it as a suitable source was initiated on the talk page. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 05:15, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude: Apologies for the delayed reply. BuzzFeed News is considered generally reliable. But I'm not certain that this particular source is a great reference for that specific content. The source doesn't appear to directly support most of the text - for example, to support the last clause, "leading to claims that the audit is essentially a disinformation campaign", I would expect to find "disinformation" and/or "campaign" actually in the source. Neither appears. Nor does "overturn". And the only mention of "rules violations" relates to Twitter rules, not "election counting". That's not to say that any of the content is untrue, or should be excluded from the article; but, on inspection, this does not seem a good source for it. - Ryk72 ^talk 03:52, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

It would, however, be an acceptable source for content which it did directly support. - Ryk72 ^talk 04:01, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Ryk72, I consider Twitter banning the official AZ Senate account to be "stirred controversy", wouldn't you? The bans are what the BuzzFeed News article is mainly about. If you want we can put the citation specifically at that clause in the beginning. But I also feel it supports the entire sentence. The article is very clear about the audit having falsehoods: The official audit account had spread misinformation about the 2020 election.  𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗸 06:18, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The bans are indeed what the source is about, and are what it should be used for; if it is to be used. For "stirred controversy": No, not really; It's an original interpretation of the source. It's better to simply write that the Twitter account was banned (which is the fact that the source verifies), without extrapolating from that. And the audit's official Twitter account having spread misinformation is not congruent to "the audit <itself> having falsehoods". Which text in the source supports extensive previous efforts by Trump and his allies to overturn the election and due to assertions of rule violations and irregularities in the conduct of the count, leading to claims that the audit is essentially a disinformation campaign. I couldn't find any; even on a second reading. Again, I don't claim that the proposed content is wrong, simply that this isn't a good source for it. - Ryk72 ^talk 07:00, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: per WP:RSP, BuzzFeed News (as distinct from BuzzFeed) is currently a green-light source with some recent notes of caution due to a reduced newsroom. To the extent that the source is merely reflecting the consensus of content from other reliable sources, I would not consider it either impermissible or indispensible as a source for the point raised. BD2412 T 04:04, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

• @SinglePorpoiseAccount: BuzzFeed is making the claim that the audit was not made or done in a way that reflects tradition or faithfully resembles an original, that it is unauthentic. They make no claims about its legitimacy; their claims are about the manner in which the Arizona Senate has gone about this audit.

The audit is proven to be pro-Trump: "Groups connected to prominent supporters of former President Donald Trump’s movement to cast doubt on the 2020 election results have raised $5.7 million for Arizona Republicans’ election audit" per AP News. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 05:04, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

BuzzFeed News isn't making that claim in the title at all, they just put it in quotation marks. AP reporting that the audit is pro-Trump doesn't constitute proof; AP is the officially selected partner for verifying election results. Since the audit is investigating the same election results, AP has a demonstrable conflict of interest in reporting errors in election results, after they have previously stated the results are verified. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 05:13, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

That is the main claim BuzzFeed makes throughout the article. One can conclude after reading the article that the intent behind the quotations for "audit" in the title was because:

1. Professional auditors do not consider it to be an audit (AZ Central)

2. It dose not resemble previous audits or what an audit is supposed to be (Basically all of the RSs) ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 05:31, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

1. Some professional auditors do not consider it to be an audit. AZ Central picked a few to question and they may or may not be a representative selection of professional auditors.

2. It does not resemble previous audits in a lot of ways, one of which is digital forensics.

3. The nature of the way BuzzFeed News discredits the audits isn't actually relevant to the issue at hand; which is that 9 Twitter accounts related to them were banned and BuzzFeed News is discrediting the audits themselves in the article about the bans. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 05:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Good Christ, you're impossible. I don't care anymore. I'll leave it up to whatever other editors decide here. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 05:47, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

• I do not believe that we have any precedent that would disallow use of AP as a source merely because AP played a role in "verifying election results". Certainly there were not AP personnel counting ballots or directly supervising the initial election work of the Maricopa County Board of Elections. While AP was cited by many news organizations in its report of the outcomes, that is still just reporting the news. We have no standard for excluding a news organization from reporting a later development because they also reported earlier developments in the same matter. Furthermore, AP specifically routinely issues corrections when its original reporting contains errors, so it can not be said that they are biased towards upholding previous reporting when it is inaccurate. BD2412 T 06:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Is this a reply to a subcomment above? SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 11:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

It is a reply to the general notion that AP is not a reliable source for this topic. BD2412 T 21:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding what I said; the AP is the selected partner for verifying the election result and as such has a conflict of interest in reporting the election results were definitely right but then report they were potentially wrong. AP is pretty big and I see no reason to exclude them altogether, but if they call the audits pro-Trump then I'd take that statement with a grain of salt. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 23:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

• BuzzFeed News is a generally reliable WP:NEWSORG. It would take remarkable circumstances to claim it was not one, particularly with the corroborating coverage. This issue seems querulous - David Gerard (talk) 09:07, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Please keep in mind this isn't about BuzzFeed News as a source in general, it's about this particular article. The supposedly corroborating sources listed above by FormalDude do not mention the Twitter account bans. Many (but not all of) the sources I've seen covering the Twitter bans are themselves using BuzzFeed as a source for those facts alone (list of Twitter accounts and statement from Twitter) but generally do not share the same POV and framing, see the PNT article. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 11:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

• BuzzFeed News is a generally reliable source, and I see nothing in the text of the article itself that would lead me to believe that this particular article has any problems with it. --Jayron32 12:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
• Just piling on here to say that BFN is a reliable sources as has been discussed numerous times at this very board, and I find the notion that AP is anything less than a top-tier source to be so remarkably bizarre as to suggest that the person making that implication is not doing so in good faith. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:06, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
  • @David Gerard and Jayron32: Any opinions on the assertion that AP has a "conflict of interest in reporting errors in election results"? BD2412 T 22:19, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I would say that is not just wrong, but conspiracy-theorist thinking from the editor asserting it, and good evidence that their opinions on sourcing should be presumed wrong and their edits should be examined. (Though I'm not going to personally get around to that last one.) - David Gerard (talk) 22:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I find the assertion laughable. The AP reports election results, as do MANY news organizations. The fact that they report election results does NOT mean they have a "conflict of interest" in later reporting on the same election. That makes no sense. Participants in the election would have a conflict of interest. The AP is a news organization, one of the most respected in the US, and is widely trusted around the world for its accuracy, its prudence, and its neutrality. --Jayron32 12:34, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
      • I think you're losing track of what this issue is about. It's about a single BFN article. Not BFN in general, not AP, and certainly not about me. To me this is starting to look more like a witch hunt to get rid of the question. If you want me gone then fine, take it up in the appropriate forum, but this is not the place for it. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 23:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

        I am confident everyone responding understands what the issue is about. Here's an explicit link from the general to the specific: since BFN is reliable, we'll only be convinced this particular article is unreliable if there are major issues. The points you raised are not issues, and if they were, not major ones. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 23:48, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

        I was asked to summarize, and that's what I did. I can go into way more detail as to why there are major issues with this particular article if requested. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 23:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

        I assume you came with your most persuasive points. I am not eager to hear more. Are you willing to accept consensus on this issue? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 00:09, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        I only summarized the points mentioned on the talk page because I thought it was going to be enough to initiate the discussion. I will of course accept whichever end result we reach, but I don't quite thing we're there yet as there are still more threads to resolve. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 11:10, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        @Firefangledfeathers: Since I have now realized you were all answering a different question to the one I thought you were asking, you can consider this question resolved with consensus. I don't think BFN is necessarily a reliable source but I have no issue accepting most Wikipedians think so. So the question as posed above isn't really something I needed an answer for, it's irrelevant to the dispute between me and FormalDude. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 02:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

        Nobody was answering a different question. I put the extremely broad question "Does it comply with Wikipedia rules and guidelines?" for this very PORPOISE (I expected a scope fallacy from you). The sources ability to support the text, POV, and quality ARE all Wikipedia guidelines. The consensus you claim is not true.  𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗸 04:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

        The single BFE article is encompassed within our judgement of BFN in general.

        This is how we know what's reliable. Your method above of scrutinizing the source to pick out which parts you think are biased and which parts aren't is just WP:OR with extra steps. We look at the circumstances and history of a source; we look at their editorial control, their topical focus, how they handle mistakes, their fact-checking, how widely-cited by other reliable sources they are, what the credentials of the authors are and whatever else would speak to their trustworthiness, and then we make a determination whether or not to believe them. We don't analyze the language used by the author to try to take a guess at whether they're biased or not, because we really don't care whether or not they're biased, only whether they're reliable.

        This is how neutrality is achieved. Once we've decided a source is reliable, we accept what that source says, regardless of whether it disagrees with our preconceptions or not. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:04, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Surely this cannot be true; how can we possibly maintain objectivity if some sources are regarded as publishing unquestionable truths? If a source under WP:RSP were to print "pigs can fly", would we blindly update the Wikipedia article about pigs to add they can fly? Furthermore, WP:YESPOV explicitly states Prefer nonjudgmental language., shouldn't we then prefer the much more neutrally worded PNT article over the BFN article? SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 11:10, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        At this point you're having a WP:1AM experience. The answer to your question in this particular case is "no, AP's reporting is fine and you're wrong." You're now trying to argue in ridiculous hypotheticals - David Gerard (talk) 12:57, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        SinglePorpoiseAccount: This is a very long thread so apologies if I missed it but can you explain what is the purpose of us preferring Phoenix New Times over Buzzfeed News? What difference does it make to what we will say in the article? If you could explain this, it may help us or at least me better understand your concerns over that particular Buzzfeed News article. If you can't because there it's not going to affect our coverage and you just want us to use Phoenix New Times instead of Buzzfeed News because you think it's a better source in this instance then sorry but I'm not just not sure this is even worth RSN's time. Source choice can be tricky but Buzzfeed News seems to be well accepted enough that I don't think it worth arguing over it especially not compared to Phoenix New Times. Even if it's true the article itself is better, the counterpoint is since the source lacks the reputation of Buzzfeed News, readers may not trust it as much regardless. Nil Einne (talk) 13:11, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        I'm a bit perplexed by all this talk about AP, it's a separate topic altogether? It's just my opinion that of all sources, AP probably isn't the one to use as proof for the audit being pro-Trump in a heated discussion. Also note the difference between evidence and proof; evidence points towards something being true while proof supports a statement of fact. An AP article can probably serve as evidence of the audits being pro-Trump, but it cannot reasonably serve as standalone proof of it. Take for instance the theory of gravity; we have mountains of evidence for it being true, even in a literal sense, but no respectable scientist will call it proved. We simply cannot definitively prove it from understanding of the underlying mechanisms (yet, which is why we're building increasingly advanced particle accelerators). We can still accept it as true based on the available evidence, but there is still no proof of it being true.

        The "pigs can fly" example was an extreme hypothetical to determine the priority of WP:RSP status or overwhelming evidence. In other words; regardless of what the threshold for overwhelming evidence is, is there a point where evidence and reason takes priority over WP:RSP status or is all questioning of such a source constitute WP:OR in an absolute sense?

        In essence I think a really strong argument for PNT over BFN for the context in question is that the Wikipedia article itself sees very polarized bipartisan traffic. Several IPAs on the talk page has questioned its bias over the past month, and off-site comments about Wikipedia articles like it indicating doing the same trend. Therefore I think it would be best if we avoid feeding into those conspiracy theories by using neutrally worded sources as much as possible. Again, the PNT and BFN article both have more or less the same basic facts about the Twitter bans and should be interchangeable from a factual standpoint (at least in the context of the Twitter bans as BFN covers a broader range of off-topic issues), but they are worlds apart in their apparent bias. If consensus turns out to be to allow the BFN article I would at least ask for it to be put last in the list of sources to the Wikipedia claim. It should be in our own self-interest to appear neutral in our selection of sources. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 14:04, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        @SinglePorpoiseAccount: wait so this discussion isn't even over whether to use PNT or BFN while keeping the content the same, but ultimately ends up being about which one to put first? Sorry but I really really don't think that's a discussion worthy of RSN. Nil Einne (talk) 19:59, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        It's probably better to explain things from the beginning. An IPA started a new talk page heading about "Various Twitter accounts suspended" and used the PNT article as a source for their claim.[71] Then FormalDude suggested we use the BFN article instead and (at least as I understood it at the time) asked for comments. I provided my comments, I'll paraphrase for brevity but I said it was my opinion that the BFN article had serious issues in neutrality and quality compared to the PNT article. Then there was some back and forth until FormalDude took it here. And here we are. If consensus is reached to use the BFN article over the initially suggested PNT article, I only ask that it would be put last so we don't transfer the apparent bias into the Wikipedia article by having it appear as the dominating source. It would be the only BFN article on the page and AFAIK BFN has a bit of a reputation on run-ins with Republicans, which means the conspiratorially inclined (and there are probably a lot of those surrounding an long-winded audit) would undoubtedly use it against Wikipedia if it appears as the dominating source to any claim in the Wikipedia article. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 21:58, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        @SinglePorpoiseAccount: your gravity example is completely flawed. It is the nature of scientific theories that they can never be proved - Hawking described them as "unprovable but falsifiable". Additionally there is no "theory of gravity" itself. And there is no doubt that gravity is a fact. It can even be measured. Doug Weller talk 15:20, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Yes there is a theory of gravity, there are in fact several.[72] You might also want to read up on Higgs bosons. [73] SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        @MrPorpoise: make up your mind. There are either a number of theories or one. But I was being pedantic and that allowed you to avoid the main issue which was about proof. Doug Weller talk

@Doug Weller: I have called for a close with consensus on this RS/N case and will no longer be participating in this discussion. If you want to discuss something with me directly you are welcome to do so on my talk page. MrPorpoise (talk) 14:26, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• • • • Look at this point, you're approaching Chewbacca defense levels of misdirection and obfuscation. We've told you the sources in question meet Wikipedia's standards for reliability, at this point your just beating a dead horse and it is growing wearisome. I think we're done here. --Jayron32 16:24, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        I can assure you I'm not trying to misdirect or obfuscate, but if I'm being attacked over opinions I don't have I'm going to defend myself. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 23:14, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Furthermore, "proof" is a matter of semantics here. If you're using "proof" to mean "shown to be unquestionably true for all time", then no explanation of reality is every proven. If (as most people do) take "proof" to mean "consistent with existing observations" then theories are as "proven" as they need to be. --Jayron32 15:26, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Sure they can, we can prove things like the Pythagoran theorem or use the more special legal term prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone did or didn't do something. It's not just a matter of semantics, the words evidence and proof are different words for a reason. If you try to equate them then you're just diminishing the nuance if the terms. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Shockingly, IP accounts complaining about an article doesn't actually mean that the article is bad. XOR'easter (talk) 16:07, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Of course not, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore IPAs. See WP:5P4. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Those same IP accounts were also trying to insert links in the article to tweets by the auditors—not articles about these tweets, mind you, just to the tweets themselves—to counter the criticism of the audit being reported in reliable sources. BD2412 T 22:20, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Yeah, and they failed in doing those things because there were more experienced Wikipedians present. But that doesn't disqualify them as real users, nor does it invalidate the whole of their opinions. And that's assuming those aren't VPN IPs, as VPNs are increasingly common. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 23:08, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        I think the fact that you honestly seem to believe that the average person is qualified to diagnose the bias of an author through what amounts to engaging in a post-modernist, subjective literary analysis of their writing, absent even the contextual data that lends a (mostly false) air of credibility to academic post-modernist literary criticism, in support of a POV which is generally held by people who hold post-modernist thought and academia in contempt is really a much bigger problem for you to be dealing with than the fact that this article says stuff you don't agree with.

        One simply cannot maintain any degree of objectivity if their definition of "objective" is entirely dependent upon their own personal inclinations (otherwise known as biases). Here at WP, we look to the most widely respected and demonstrably accurate sources of information, and then yes, we choose to hold everything those sources say about the subject of their expertise to be accurate, especially when other widely respected and demonstrably accurate sources agree with them. On those rare occasions when the preponderance of other widely respected and demonstrably accurate sources disagree, then and only then do we consider a source's claims suspect, and we then remember that we failed to trust them on this issue the next time it comes up. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:33, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        I usually consider myself fairly good a English for a Swede but that went over my head. Could you please rephrase the first paragraph in simpler terms? It's a little too much for me to properly make sense of when I have to look up so many uncommon words, like what is "academic post-modernist literary criticism" even supposed to mean? One by one, or in pairs, I can make sense of it but all of it together is hopeless.

        To the second paragraph I fear we're getting into meta-levels of definitions. From a pedantic perspective everything is interpreted on some level, like text and words are interpreted to meanings based on existing knowledge of those words, but that's still just being pedantic. If you mean something along the lines of not everyone is qualified to determine what they should think is true, then I find that downright offensive. It's a fundamental principle of a functioning democratic society that one is allowed to form their own opinions and apply new information to their existing knowledge to determine what is true or false. Anything else axiomatically requires authoritarian truth, i.e. the basis of any stable dictatorship. It was my understanding that this is a part of what made Wikipedia "The Free Encyclopedia"; we only publish the facts and opinions which makes up a neutral point of view so that the readers can form their own interpretations and opinions. But hopefully I'm just misunderstanding what you mean. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 17:08, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Fortunately, we have an encyclopedia near at hand. I would suggest reading articles in the given order: Post-modernism, then Deconstruction (specifically the section on Literary criticism), then understand that you're refocusing at this point, read Literary criticism, and then for context, you can also read Postmodern literature and Criticism of postmodernism.

        After that, I recommend WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:FIXBIAS, WP:YESPOV and WP:RS.

        As to my second paragraph, if you can't understand the sense in it (based as it is in our policies and guidelines), WP:CIR might be a good read. Pay special attention to the second, third and fourth bullet points in the first section. I'd say the first certainly doesn't seem to apply here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:27, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        Yeah those articles didn't really help much with understanding your first paragraph. They're using what I think are field-specific terms, i.e. you'd need to have a certain level of understanding for the field to grasp the terminology. So thanks for the links but I still don't understand what you're trying to tell me. I'd like you to read WP:CIRNOT, because the third point seems to qualify even incorrect punctuation as mid-level English fluency. I understand basic English and I've picked up a lot of advanced terms over the years, including a lot of field-specific terminology regarding mechanics and science, but the articles you linked are simply incomprehensible to me. I don't know how I'm expected to understand them.

        Come on, discussing the suitability of a source on a Wikipedia discussion page can't reasonably constitute original research. But I think I get what you're trying to say; Wikipedia generally only cares about the majority POV in an article. It's a bit flawed when it's such a controversial subject as an election audit, but I'm getting really tired of having to defend myself for trying to maintain Wikipedias reputation of neutrality.

        I have read your second paragraph over and over again, and I think it's starting to sound like "yes, then we add that pigs can fly, unless there are other reliable sources that explicitly say they can't". SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 22:38, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

        If there are reliable sources saying "pigs can fly", then we absolutely should say that "pigs can fly" unless we have other reliable sources saying that they can't. That's exactly right. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:13, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

• Buzzfeed News is generally reliable, and without clear-cut and truly dramatic evidence that they screwed up in this particular case, that general judgment applies to the specific example here too. Such evidence is lacking. The claim that "AP has a demonstrable conflict of interest in reporting errors in election results" is risible. XOR'easter (talk) 01:26, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Look, if everyone here wants to take a stab at my comment that a single article from AP doesn't prove anything, can you at least give a clear answer to if FormalDude should use this BFN article over the initially offered PNT article? SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 23:22, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
• "Why would a Wookiee like Chewbacca would want to live on Endor with the much smaller Ewoks when 'it does not make sense'. He argues that if Chewbacca living on Endor does not make sense—and if even mentioning Chewbacca in the case does not make sense—then the jury must..." discount Buzzfeed as a reliable source. (quotation from Chewbacca defense). ---Steve Quinn (talk) 22:10, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Is this a joke? I'm not trying to discount BFN as a reliable source, I'm asking specifically about this article. Actually, that's not entirely true either; FormalDude initiated this process. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 23:17, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
• Sigh, it's only now that I realize FormalDude didn't actually ask the same question that started this. An IPA offered the article from PNT, FormalDude offered the article from BFN as a replacement and asked for comments. I responded I thought the BFN article had "several grave quality issues". Some back and forth occurred, FormalDude created this noticeboard heading, and now we're here. The question should probably read "Is this source from BFN better than this source from PNT?". SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 23:29, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

  JFC, you need to stop with your logical fallacies. Nobody misunderstood the intent of this RS/N (except maybe you). Every editor here has clearly evaluated the source in the context of the article and the article's other sources. You are grasping at straws, and this is probably the last one left.  𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗸 01:55, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

  No. You clearly had no intention of representing the actual issue at hand in an honest way. You've deceived all these Wikipedians with your framing and wasted everyones time. This is not how an experienced Wikipedian should handle source selection, it has even been pointed out to me that this is not the place to discuss source selection. Yes, I probably should've noticed earlier that everyone was saying BFN is generally considered a reliable source. It should've been a red flag telling me they were answering a different question. I accept that I made that mistake. But don't you dare pretend this settles the dispute we had in the thread. Your lies have had a very real effect on my reputation, nobody is taking my edits seriously anymore and I'm getting attacked with references back to this RS/N. You on the other hand have no excuse, you know the RS/N board is only to discuss the reliability of sources, not source selection, and by opening this question here you made me believe we would have help from other experienced Wikipedians to resolve our issue, of what has essentially always been source selection. As soon as I figure out how to bring this up on whatever the appropriate noticeboard is I want to make sure this is settled once and for all, because clearly you just cannot handle someone disagreeing with you. And please, don't try that WP:NPA reference again, we can all see in the original thread that you kept going after me when I repeatedly tried to deescalate. Well, I'm done trying to deescalate and follow your advice, we need an independent third party to settle this. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 02:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

  Feel free to bring up any issues at WP:Administrators Noticeboard/Incidents#User:SinglePorpoiseAccount, which I notified you about on your talk page.  𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗸 03:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

  Also, if there are two sources and one is considered by some editors to be "better" than the other, but both are permissible, then we can use both sources. That said, I see no record from which to judge Phoenix New Times to be "better" than BuzzFeed News. If the sole criterion is how harshly they appear to be treating the subject of a specific article, that is no basis for evaluation at all. BD2412 T 01:57, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, this might have been the conclusion we eventually would've arrived at in the original thread with the appropriate help. It's kind of hard to keep the conversation civil when FormalDude continuously called me a liar though. Right now I'll need some help on how to set up a dispute resolution though, and even though we've disagreed you've been fair to me on the talk page so I trust you not to set me on the wrong path. As you understand I don't want to fall into the same trap again, I want the specific issue of "which source to use for the Twitter bans" from the talk page resolved with help from an independent third party. FormalDude and I clearly cannot resolve this by ourselves. Where do I go to request help? SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 02:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I am just a man who enjoys a good dessert, but it's almost like you can look back at this very long thread and deduce which way the community seems to lean.... Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 02:45, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah sorry for all the noise, I should've realized earlier that something else was wrong. SinglePorpoiseAccount (talk) 02:53, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Call for close

Could an uninvolved editor, or a bold involved one, please close this section? At this point, both primary editors in the dispute have signaled that they would like a close, and multiple new participants have done so as well. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:54, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Considering that the source has remained in the article uncontested for some time now I think it's acceptable to close this section with a consensus that the source is reliable and verifies the text. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 01:26, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

foodnavigator.com

They appear to have some sort of editorial oversight and state they don't publish press releases but rather use them to create stories. Can it be used to prove notability of a business (see Draft:Moving Mountains Foods (company))? —valereee (talk) 13:10, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Since Food Navigator is a trade rag, my personal sense is that it's not useful to establishing notability (WP:AUD) but is otherwise reliable. Chetsford (talk) 06:12, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I’m with Chetsford here, perfectly usable for most things in its niche but for notability purposes they don’t count for much. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:07, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you both! —valereee (talk) 11:36, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Hall, Ian; Bristol University Press

• Hall, Ian. Modi and the Reinvention of Indian Foreign Policy. United Kingdom, Bristol University Press, 2019

Preview available on Google books

Would you consider it reliable source?

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 12:58, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Depends. What is it being cited for? Do other sources contradict it? Context matters... AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:06, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Bookku, an editor whose record on Wikipedia seems to be about showing how poor the status of women is in Pakistan, is attempting to show somewhat startlingly that the Indian prime minister Narendra Modi did not abandon his wife as has been widely reported in the international press, that Modi had a "child marriage," forced upon him by his family, and he thus stands absolved of abandonment or desertion. Bookku, in my view, is attempting to rope in Ian Hall in support of his quest. The RFC which Bookku has requested in this matter on Talk:Narendra Modi seems to be going near-unanimously against him. I suspect he is looking to use this paragraph from Hall (p. 64)

Soon after, other points of contention emerged. When Modi was about six, his father had made a preliminary arrangement for his marriage, as was customary at that time and in that community (Verma, 2014, pp. 9-10). By the time he was 13, however, he seems to have begun to protest against the idea of marrying (Mukhopadhyay, 2013, pp. 65-6; Marino, 2014, p. 21). Nevertheless, a ceremony was conducted at some point with Jashodaben, his intended spouse, either when Modi was 13 or 16 (his biographers disagree on the details) (Verma, 2014, p. 10). Another was performed to seal the marriage when Modi was about 17, at which point the couple were meant to live together, with his wife joining his parents’ household. This situation did not last long. Within weeks, he broke with both his spouse and his family. He left home and thereafter did not return, except very briefly, to either his wife or his parents."

In my understanding, Bookku would like to use this paragraph to reason that because Modi was "about 17," the marriage was a "child marriage," a term with much resonance in India, and many tragic tales of young Indian women being abused. India did have a "Child Marriage Restraint Act of 1929," which after one amendment in 1949 (after India's independence from Britain) stated that a (heterosexual) marriage was not recognized (and hence a child marriage) if the bride (woman/girl) was below the age of 15 or the groom (male) below the age of 18. Jashodaben Modi, Mr Modi's wife was definitely above the age of 15. Mr Modi's age on the day of marriage is murky. In the RFC, ten editors have voted to support, "Mr Modi was 18 and his wife was 17" or words to that effect and in effect have voted against mentioning "child marriage." The Child Marriage Restraint Act, however, always had the girl in mind, not the boy. Its main concern was pre-puberty girls, often between the ages of 9 and 14, who had been abused in the institution of marriage in Hindu India for centuries. Bookku in my view is engaged in a rear-guard action in the last week of the RFC (which began on July 10 and which is) slated to close next week. Why he is taking a patriarchal stance in the instance of India, given his record of ostensible feminism in Pakistan-related articles, is a bit of a mystery. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:04, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I should add that I'm not familiar with Ian Hall's work, but I expect that he is a good academic. His book is about foreign policy. His paragraph should be seen as art, not science, in other words, reliable on foreign policy, less reliable on the murky travails of Mr Modi's marriage; Hall has attempted to write a semi-coherent narrative there, given the all too few published books discussing the marriage. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:27, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

If a source states that someone was 'about 17' when something happened, one would generally assume that they are being non-specific for good reasons - almost certainly because they don't have the evidence to be more definitive. So regardless of whether Hall is 'reliable' on this particular matter (he would seem to be for the actual topic of his book) he can't be cited for anything more specific about Modi's age. As for what the article should say on the matter, without looking into it in further detail I'd do better not to offer any opinion beyond pointing out that policy suggests that if reliable sources differ on something they consider to be of significance, Wikipedia should generally say so, rather than trying to decide who is right. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:23, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for digression, those users who feel that there is more scope of feminist encyclopedic discussion on South Asia are most welcome to expand Draft:Sexual politics in south Asia, in present status of draft I have taken note of criticism of Hindu Indian traditions but then others may ask why you target south Asia only, I have worked on women's rights on global level articles too like My body, my choice and users are most welcome to constructively expand those articles rather than passing condescending judgements. ( I have paid some attention on Muslim women's feminism since few among them are active and writing on Wikipedia.) I have worked on conservative muslims side articles too like Islamic advice literature. I did not start insinuation or digression from my side so I do not expect any rebuttals here, join in improving women's rights articles across rather that will be more fruitful. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 08:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

You'd probably have got less digression if you'd included an explanation of what the source was being cited for in your first post, as requested at the top of this page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

This article seemed unreliable

This article from Haaretz claimed Haredi divorce rates were increasing and claimed its source from the IDI. when looking at its claimed source: Which is apparently the IDI 2016. The IDI makes no claim that Haredi divorce rates are increasing. I am not (yet) saying that Haaretz in general is an unreliable source, but this article in particular needs investigation into its reliability. Can I have more eyes looking into this particular articles reliability?155.246.151.38 (talk) 20:56, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Can you specify in which context you or other editors want to use this article? JBchrch talk 21:02, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Full context on Talk Haredi Judaism.

tl;dr There is wikipedia voice which states Haredi divorce rates are increasing. This is sourced to 2017 Haaretz article. It seems that articles from that time on do not make that claim. In fact there appears to be isolated reports of Haredi divorce rate dropping.155.246.151.38 (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I will not have the time to take a look at this today but other users can take a look at Talk:Haredi Judaism § Divorce section. JBchrch talk 21:16, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, Thanks for taking the time to look it over!155.246.151.38 (talk) 21:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Pinging IZAK Debresser Pipsally.155.246.151.38 (talk) 21:29, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Haredi divorce rates have been climbing steadily for many years. That is a fact. However, this is not mentioned in the source cited above. However, there may be other IDI sources out there that the HaAretz article might have been referring to. Debresser (talk) 22:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

For example: this article says: "Over the years, we can see a rise in the percentage of single, divorced and widowed among the ultra-Orthodox, from 15% in 2003, to 17% in 2017." Now notice that that is not yet saying that the divorce rate went up (rather the total of singles + divorced + widowed), but it might have been misinterpreted. Debresser (talk) 22:57, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

First, per wp:V, statements must be verifiable to a reliable source. The IDI source is from 2018. The Haaretz article was from 2017. Haaretz could not have cited an IDI report from 2018. There was no mention of divorce in the IDI's 2017 report. It seems that the Haaretz article is more unclear as we go on.

Second, the IDI did not claim that Haredi divorce was rising, it explicitly said that the rise from 2003-2018 from 15-17% of single, widowed, divorced may be due to marriage at later ages. We still have no reliable source that claims Haredi divorce is increasing, except for the increasingly unreliable Haaretz article. Thanks for looking into this Debresser, your research is extremely helpful!155.246.151.38 (talk) 23:31, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Divorce rates are rising among Haredim, not sure if anyone knows for sure what the percentages are. Not sure what this discussion is about. IZAK (talk) 00:34, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

This discussion is about a sources reliability. Is the given Haaretz article reliable? The Haaretz article claims to have been sourced in the IDI, yet on further investigation, its claimed source seems a doubtful source of its data. Do you believe the given Haaretz article is a reliable source?155.246.151.38 (talk) 01:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Although this is not part of the RSN discussion and belongs on Haredi talkpage, several sources claim that in certain predominantly Haredi cities, divorce rates are dropping. Maybe (feel free to ignore this, as this is just a personal conjecture of a non-expert) this belief that divorce rates are rising is anecdotal? If it is just anecdotal, it does not belong on wikipedia. Thanks for looking into this IZAK!155.246.151.38 (talk) 01:42, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think divorce rates are dropping, anywhere. In the Haredi communities in America they are definitely rising to my anecdotal knowledge. You are not going to find reliable Haredi sources for this taboo subject. They don't talk or publicize this subject. Just as they don't talk or publicize suicides, or sex abuse in the Haredi communities. So I guess, for now, we can go with Haaretz with the proviso that Haaretz is a secular news organization not sympathetic to the Haredi POV, so take it with a lump of salt. IZAK (talk) 03:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Haaretz cites the IDI. It doesn’t claim that specific report, that’s just your assumption. There’s no real reason to question a generally reliable source herePipsally (talk) 04:06, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Just spent a few hours checking the IDI website for haredi divorce rates and could not find the alleged Haaretz statistic. We have had at least 4 wikipedians look over the Haaretz article, yet none of them have found the source in the IDI. If anyone could find the alleged data which Haaretz claims to be from the IDI, this whole report would be wrapped up. Can we have more eyes looking into the Haaretz article to examine its claim of data coming from the IDI?

Here is the contested quote from Haaretz:

"According to the Israel Democracy Institute, the ultra-Orthodox community’s divorce rate is catching up to that of the secular Jewish community. While the divorce rate in the general population has remained steady at 13 couples per 1,000 since 2002, it has spiked in the Haredi community."

Useful links:

https://en.idi.org.il/

https://en.idi.org.il/haredi/2020/?chapter=34272 155.246.151.38 (talk) 05:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Haaretz is currently considered a reliable source. Engaging in primary research to attempt to disprove Haaretz is not what Wikipedia editors are supposed to be doing, per WP:OR. If Haaretz is, in fact, wrong, or misrepresenting their sources, you will need to find a verifiable secondary source that says this. Hipocrite (talk) 13:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree, we do not second guess sources, either an RS has said they are wrong, or we have to accept they are not.Slatersteven (talk) 13:52, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I would add that given that quote from Haaretz, it does not necessarily imply it was from a published work by the IDI - the reporter in their investigation could have called IDI and asked what's the current stats over the phone, which would be otherwise difficult to document. If the quote led "According a report by the IDI..." and we couldn't find any sign of that report, that would be an issue. Otherwise, as above has said, Haaretz is generally reliable, and unless there is a conflicting report from another RS, I don't think we can doubt it. That said, I would simply make sure that the "fact" is attributed to the IDI in WP's prose. --Masem (t) 14:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Masem is exactly right. Haaretz is generally reliable so we can just attribute IDI in text. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 08:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

But in this case there is a reasonable doubt whether the claim they make is true and nobody seems to be able to find their source. That seems reasons enough for me to make an exception and not mention this claim in our articles until it can be corroborated by additional, independent, sources. Debresser (talk) 00:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Policy question about OR on RSN

Based on the above comments, it seems that the way to go is contacting the IDI directly and asking them about this statistic. If they agree that they said it, fine. If not, then Haaretz's reliability in general is under question. Does this makes sense?155.246.151.38 (talk) 17:02, 5 August 2021 (UTC) Here is link to contact them: https://en.idi.org.il/about/contact/. Anyone else who independently contacts them is much appreciated!155.246.151.38 (talk) 17:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

No, that would qualify as original research. The organization telling someone something is not directly verifiable. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:21, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

According to WP:OR "The prohibition against original research means that all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source". The OR policy only covers adding material to articles. This is not about adding material to articles, this is about challenging a given sources reliability on RSN. The verifiability issue only takes play when it comes into articles, not RSN discussions. Any wikilawyers want to weigh in on this? 155.246.151.38 (talk) 18:34, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The idea that we would disregard a reliable source because you were unable to get a third party to specifically state for you that they had provided a certain statistic is not reasonable. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

In this case, we are not talking about any random third party. We are talking about the source of the data! If they did not provide the data, the only conclusion is that the Haaretz article is incorrect due to either accident or malicious intent.155.246.151.38 (talk) 20:23, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Nat Gertler is correct. You are wrong. Hipocrite (talk) 20:42, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Contentious Claims

The best approach would be to follow contentious claims. See if other sources make this claim. If not, then it is either false or too insignificant for inclusion. Per OR, there is nothing to stop you from checking divorce rates over the years and seeing if they are in fact increasing. TFD (talk) 22:40, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarification TFD! The issue is that no other reliable sources (that I have found) make that claim. If I am understanding you correctly, that means if no other RS is found for that claim the contentious claim should be removed?155.246.151.38 (talk) 22:55, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Does it fall into "contentious claims"? It's not surprising, it's not challenged, it's not out of character, and a bit of an uptick in the rates for this one group is not so major that one would expect broad mainstream coverage, yet it is of interest for something tightly on the topic. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:59, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Of course it falls into redflag territory! It is the only source which claims Haredi divorce rates are increasing, and its claimed source of the IDI has not yet panned out. A highly questionable claim of data is a big redflag!155.246.151.38 (talk) 02:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: The second source was checked and removed because it did not claim Haredi divorce rates were increasing.155.246.151.38 (talk) 07:08, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

It's contentious because it is saying that divorces are increasing among a religious group that doesn't recognize civil divorce and is restrictive on religious divorces. If, as NatGertler says, it might be a slight uptick that is not reported in mainstream coverage then either the article should say it is a slight uptick or ignore it altogether. Weight says that facts largely ignored in sources should not be included. OTOH if there has been a substantial increase in divorce rates, one would expect that the reasons for the increase would be included. Has there been a change in policy such as recognizing domestic violence as grounds for divorce or are members increasingly acting against their stated religious beliefs? TFD (talk) 13:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

All this comes back to that if we added "According to the IDI in YEAR, ...", then we remove what may be a contentious claim (here based on editors' somewhat expert knowledge that this would seem to go against the norm) that we take the statement out of Wikivoice and its inclusion wouldn't be an issue until any other either corroborating or conflicting source came along. Or alternatively, if the claim seems odd, it can be ignored until some type of collaboration comes along. Failure of the IDI or Hareetz to go into the reasoning why this may be true isn't an aspect we consider from a sourcing standpoint, but we can recognize that if a claim is thrown out there, without any relevant context/backup and which seems unusual, we can treat the claim factor itself with some dubiousness. But from the RS aspect, we can't doubt (unless proven otherwise) that Hareetz is repeating something the IDI told them, whether from a yet-published report or over a phone call. --Masem (t) 14:01, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks TFD and Masem for the explanation! Based on the two scenarios you laid out, scenario one involving us giving an in text citation to the IDI, there is one problem. We don't know what year the alleged IDI statistic came from and Haaretz was not kind enough to let us know. It appears we are left with scenario two where we ignore the source until other RS comes along. Is this user making any sense?155.246.151.38 (talk) 15:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

If the information feels like it needs to be included, you could say "According to the IDI via Hareetz in YEAR, ..." as to date that statement. --Masem (t) 15:50, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

The Unz Review

I saw that this site was used as source for an article on Robert B. Spencer. While the article was from what I saw was reasonable "That most American Muslims are not radical" its a pretty clear case of a broken clock striking right once. When one of the head articles has titles like "Jew York Times" and other racist and ant-Semitic articles, not to mention just reading Ron Unz's page makes its pretty clear to me that this should be Deprecated. Wikipedia:Deprecated sources Does anyone oppose doing that to this site? 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:41, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

• Deprecate it. Thanks 3Kingdom for your work in improving wikipedia!155.246.151.38 (talk) 18:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate. Their "About" page makes it clear that the site doesn't even necessarily stand behind the batty stuff their writers espouse. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:57, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• As much as I think The Unz Review is an unreliable source, Unz.com   shows that it is also being used as a source for old journal articles. For instance This copy of 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight' by John Speirs published in Scrutiny, Winter 1949 is being used in the Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. In fact having a look through the duses, links to old journal articles seem to be the predominant use, and I don't think their use is problematic unless there are copyright issues. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:11, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Deprecation doesn't seem like the best solution. I am unsure of current or historical reliability. Jlevi (talk) 22:14, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
  • It's a terrible source, dodgy enough that I'd be reluctant to use it even as a source for third-party material in this manner, as this might encourage its use in other contexts - David Gerard (talk) 23:56, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate. There is no way in which using this source is good for Wikipedia - David Gerard (talk) 23:57, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
  • this should prrrrrobably be a proper deprecation RFC, fwiw - David Gerard (talk) 23:58, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate. A lot of the bloggers are random racists or anti-semites who aren't expected to be reliable primary or secondary sources by whatever editors the site has. There are a few people where this domain is a useful source for their own views, so it's not a domain that should be blacklisted, but it is just about the last source I would want to see on any controversial topic. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:02, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
• I say we take off and deprecate the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:16, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
• Deprecate. Unz is platform open for to any crank seeking to promote the very fringe of the fringe of racist and pseudoscientific beliefs; it should never be used to support statements of fact and views published inside it are almost always WP:UNDUE. To address the source archive points mentioned above, its archive of print journal articles and magazines to provide fulltext for older stuff may be useful for research, but that's not necessarily an indication we should provide a link to them in a citation. Now I'm no fan of how copyright law is currently applied in general, but these are the facts: Unz appears to be hosting a lot of magazine scans etc that are clearly not in the public domain, from the 1940s Speirs article to National Review articles published as recently as 2010, and he appears to do so without any sanction from the copyright holders or any meaningful restrictions on their distribution. So generally we'd avoid linking to these sources per WP:COPYLINK. There's really no compelling use of the source I can see. —0xf₈e₈ 💿 (talk) 22:51, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• Some comments:

- Wp:Deprecated sources: Deprecation "primarily exists to save time by avoiding the endless discussion of the same issues, and to raise awareness among editors of the status of the sources in question. ... Deprecated sources should not be considered to be either unique or uniquely unreliable. They may be those that are most often cited by unaware editors, or those that come up in discussion the most often – for example, due to real-world controversy, borderline reliability, or a tendency to be promoted on-wiki despite a lack of reliability." So, the normal reason for deprecation is to prevent frequent discussions of questionable sources. However, as far as I can determine, this is only the third time that The Unz Review has been brought up at the RSN. Exactly how often have its articles been cited on Wikipedia?

- I think that it's a fairly poor idea to suggest that a Wikipedia article "makes it clear" that a source should be deprecated.

- Although a site may generally be regarded as a poor source, there may be particular situations where it has value. For instance, it may be used to show when its writers have been misquoted or misrepresented.

    ←   ZScarpia   23:43, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Ammoland

Is Ammoland sufficiently reliable to make a negative/contentious claim on a BLP for someone who works in an ideologically opposed role? The page is Joseph Sakran, the edit is this, and the cited article is Virginia: Threat Against Anti-Gun Activist Is An Alleged Hoax.

ammoland.com  

I bring this to RSN because this source is used over 150 times (though a good hunk of those citations appear to be endorsements for elections), so it may have broader relevance. It is also cited on a number of pages about firearms, a domain in which its reliability may differ from political and BLP topics. Jlevi (talk) 01:12, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• My take: legitimately unsure, probably not reliable enough for this use, but unclear reliability for general use based on whate I've seen after a little poking around. Snope cites Ammoland twice as a source and it has not failed a factcheck on that site: [74][75]. On the other hand Media Matters describes an 2013 op-ed from Ammoland as a myth: [76] and has a big batch of other negative articles about the site (though it is clearly coming from its own bias). Jlevi (talk) 01:19, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Even if the source were reliable, the edit to the Sakran biography it is being cited for doesn't accurately reflect what it actually says. And if this is the only source, what it does say about what it refers to as an 'alleged hoax' doesn't seem sufficient to justify inclusion under WP:BLP. Sources basing content on Twitter speculation rarely are.

As to other questions of reliability, I'd have to suggest that they each need to be looked at in context. This is a source with a clear agenda, and one which seems to solicit content from supporters, on controversial issues. [77] It might be 'reliable' for technical issues regarding firearms, but beyond that, use would need care. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• Clearly not reliable for the stated use, and generally unreliable for statements of fact. AmmoLand is comparable to the case of  The Truth About Guns (RSP entry) as a similar group blog with a poor reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. AL regularly promotes false or misleading claims that tend to align with its bias toward right-wing politics, such as the claim that there is "undeniable mathematical evidence" the 2020 American presidential election was stolen by Joe Biden (1 2, 3), that gun manufacturer John Noveske was killed because he exposed a link between prescription drugs and mass shootings, and that global warming is a hoax. AL plays fast and loose with the distinction between opinion and news articles, sometimes indicating who is writing and sometimes avoiding it, such that it is difficult to tell when they are making a factual claim or merely stating the opinion of its author. The problem with allowing its use for technical issues is that AmmoLand doesn't really cover uncontroversial technical stuff all that often, if at all, outside of clearly non-independent press releases and syndicated content (and it rarely lists when it is doing so, e.g. here) As such, we should generally apply the same caution to its mundane coverage that we would to most press releases. —0xf₈e₈ 💿 (talk) 04:20, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable group blog, with a predilection for promotion of conspiracy theories, per the above - evidence against any meaningful editorial standards. At absolute best, no more citable in Wikipedia than any other blog - David Gerard (talk) 07:37, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
• No comment on the site as a whole (haven't done my research), but it's rather obviously not appropriate as a source in the BLP mentioned in the heading. Hog Farm _Talk 05:43, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Army Recognition

Is Army Recognition a reliable source? https://www.armyrecognition.com/ --BlackShadowG (talk) 02:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

From a quick look, it seems to consist of press release material only. Almost certainly not, for that. If there is something specific you are asking about, you'll have to say more. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:24, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

It would help if you indicate what you're looking to use it for, but I would say no. The editorial standards seem quite poor. Army Recognition essentially operates on a pay-for-coverage basis, billing itself as one of several online magazines that "provides online marketing and advertising solutions for the Defense & Security industries." A large part of its content is coverage that is copied, without attribution, from other sources, such as this article duplicating content from the United States Army's news service or this one duplicating content from the Australian Department of Defense. As such, I would generally prefer to cite the original piece in such instances, and would avoid citing Army Recognition directly if possible—certain uses might verge on contributory copyright infringement. —0xf₈e₈ 💿 (talk) 04:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Most recently discussed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 344#armyrecognition.com. I see no evidence that anything has changed since then, and the 900+ uses (see armyrecognition.com  ) should be removed. FDW777 (talk) 11:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Podcasts to be used as: References or External Links?

I posted this on the talk page of Mona Lisa and have been directed to check here.

Can podcasts be used at all? If yes, is it as references or external links? I want to contribute quoting the episodes from the two widest known podcasts on Art History: ArtCurious and The Lonely Palette.

Here is an example from ArtCurious about Mona Lisa: https://www.artcuriouspodcast.com/artcuriouspodcast/1

It also has the transcript.

Please suggest! - Veera.sj

freenews.live?

https://freenews.live/terrorists-took-the-blame-for-forest-fires-in-turkey/

2021 Turkish wildfires

'Children of Fire' branch of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) claimed responsibility for forest fires. The organization declared itself publicly responsible for the fire through social networks and explained its actions through a fight with the authorities.

There seems to be a contradiction with another sentence in the article which says:

This was denied by the PKK, as well as the Kurdistan Communities Union (KCK).

Incidentally the Turkish source for the first sentence is being discussed at https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipedi:G%C3%BCvenilir_kaynaklar/Duyuru_panosu#Albayrak_Medya_Grubu_bile%C5%9Fenleri

freenews.live cliamed to have fact checked it - but as they mostly publish USA news and seem to have a small staff I doubt they have the resources to properly fact check non-USA news. Unfortunately local factcheckers here in Turkey have published nothing in English on the subject https://en.teyit.org/advanced-search?topic=fire&page=1

Chidgk1 (talk) 11:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Are studies published by "Western academics" unreliable on the topic of Cuba?

There is an IP edit-warrior on Elections in Cuba who is scrubbing content such as:

1. Hyde, Susan D. (2011). The Pseudo-Democrat's Dilemma: Why Election Observation Became an International Norm. Cornell University Press. p. 123.
2. Galvis, Ángela Fonseca; Superti, Chiara (2019-10-03). "Who wins the most when everybody wins? Predicting candidate performance in an authoritarian election". Democratization. 26 (7): 1278–1298.
3. Domínguez, Jorge I.; Galvis, Ángela Fonseca; Superti, Chiara (2017). "Authoritarian Regimes and Their Permitted Oppositions: Election Day Outcomes in Cuba". Latin American Politics and Society. 59 (2): 27–52.
4. Domínguez, Jorge I. (2021). "The Democratic Claims of Communist Regime Leaders: Cuba's Council of State in a Comparative Context". Communist and Post-Communist Studies. 54 (1–2): 45–65.
5. Smyth, Regina; Bianco, William; Chan, Kwan Nok (2019-04-25). "Legislative Rules in Electoral Authoritarian Regimes: The Case of Hong Kong's Legislative Council". The Journal of Politics. 81 (3): 892–905.

from the article because the content is "published by American universities, or co-written by authors at American universities"[78] and "western journals are hardly neutral"[79]. When the content is not being scrubbed, it's being described as being by "western academics" and juxtaposed with content sourced to sources such as the "Cuban Solidarity Campaign". This leads me to wonder: are peer-reviewed studies published by scholars who are affiliated with US universities unreliable on the subject of Cuba? Are university presses and journals located in the US unreliable on the subject of Cuba? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Can't you simply revert for sake of vandalism?Rastakwere (talk) 17:27, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

The IP edit warrior is currently on 4 reverts within 24 hours and has been at it for the last couple of weeks. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and no. It depends on who they are.Slatersteven (talk) 18:02, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Depends on who they are and what the publications are, obviously, but content in peer-reviewed journals by professors at accredited universities are not just fine, they are probably the best we can find. This seems a matter for admin intervention more than RSN. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:06, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Hold a minute Western academics unreliable? Isn’t Cuba a Western country?CycoMa (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 18:26, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Obviously, the IP editors stance is a too-large generalization to be useful. I also think what they're complaining about is more about bias than reliability. Towards a possible answer: I think it would depend on funding sources for the publication. If a researcher has received grants or runs a center in collaboration with US government agencies, then, yes, I think that might reduce the reliability of the source. —Wingedserif (talk) 18:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

If they had a slightly different attitude I might agree, its clear (even by their use of the word western) there is far more to their objection than meets the eye. I agree with ht above this is a matter for Admins, and not RSN.Slatersteven (talk) 18:38, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• Clearly here to POV war. Bump it to Admins. Blueboar (talk) 19:11, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Everyone has a POV. Snoogans has not exactly been good at hiding their POV that Cuba is not a democracy. 82.33.72.42 (talk) 19:18, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

It is not POV, any objective standard would say Cuba is not a democracy. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

To be clear: I am not scrubbing content, in my edits I have not removed any sources (yet you continue to accuse me of this) and have in fact expanded on your sources by elaborating on their content. My issue is with your insistence to include the phrase "Elections in Cuba are not democratic", supported only by your sources. I have never sought to remove them or their claims from the lead, but presenting those claims as objective fact and suppressing the inclusion of dissenting sources (even when they are present in the main article) is my objection. I have never sought to argue that those sources are unreliable, but they are biased and must be presented in their proper context along with opposing sources (that are also, yes, biased). I'll admit to my own biases, I believe Cuba to be democratic, but I'm not the one trying to remove sources I disagree with here. 82.33.72.42 (talk) 19:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

There is nothing I see from these sources to indicate that they should not be used. If IP repeats recomendmeing that an admin make it some only members can edit would be a reasonable next step. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I've not suggested they shouldn't be used, I've suggested that they are biased and shouldn't be the only sources used in the article lead, when the article already contains other sources that disagree. Snoogans et al are suppressing sources that don't conform to their own POV.

You are missing the point… there are multiple editors telling you that the sources you have challenged are reliable, and that the sources you want to add are not reliable. When multiple editors tell you the same thing, you need to accept that consensus is against you. Edit warring (which is what you have been doing) is not the solution. Blueboar (talk) 12:45, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Advice to 82.33.72.42 - first, become a true Wikipedian and not an IP number; second, do a thorough literature review (Scholar Google or Researchgate) with key words "Cuba" and "elections". Third, from those results discard any opinion and action committee papers. Discard also US sources if you do not trust them. And then, fourth, write a honest review of the remaining scientific papers (with DOI). Fifth, now you are ready to try and edit Wikipedia pages on the topic.Rastakwere (talk) 13:12, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

• In my experience “western academics” populate both ends of the spectrum of opinion about Cuba, so not really sure what we think we’re getting out of this. If you want a full throated conservative condemnation of Cuban Communism you’re most likely going to get it from a “western” academic and the same is true if you want a fully fledged Marxist defense of the perpetual anti-imperialist revolution... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:23, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

US State Department report on human trafficking in North Korea

The article Human trafficking in North Korea is almost entirely sourced to a report from the US Department of State: https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-trafficking-in-persons-report/

Is a single document from a state-run propaganda outlet really a sufficient source for content on an ideological enemy? 82.33.72.42 (talk) 19:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• The US State Department is not a “propaganda outlet”. Blueboar (talk) 19:14, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

OK, let me refrain from that emotive phrasing. It's undeniable that material published by the US Department of State is intended to promote America's ideological interests. 82.33.72.42 (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Nope… try again. Blueboar (talk) 19:21, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

If I presented a North Korean source that disputed these claims, would you accept that as having equal weight? 82.33.72.42 (talk) 19:23, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

The US is not a one-party dictatorship with an extreme cult of personality that engages in terrorism. 3Kingdoms (talk) 21:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I mean the US absolutely does engage in terrorism. During the Korean War they attacked civilian targets in the north indiscriminately, levelling around 85% of its buildings. To then turn around and say that they are a reliable source on North Korea is laughable. 82.33.72.42 (talk) 12:10, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Thats not terrorism. No they did not target them indiscriminately. Even is that was true it still would have not baring, since it was more than 70 years ago. By your logic the State dept can't be used to report on Germany because world war II. This is clear POV pushing on your part and not only that reeks of communist apologism. 3Kingdoms (talk) 12:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

The clear difference is that Germany is no longer under Nazi rule, while North Korea is under the same administration as it was during the war, and the US has maintained a hostile foreign policy towards them since then. And yes, deliberately targeting civilian targets during a war is terrorism. You can't honestly believe bombing 85% of all buildings was proportionate and that was a legitimate military response. This reeks of imperialist apologism. 82.33.72.42 (talk) 12:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Deliberately targeting non-dual use civilian targets during a contemporary war would be a war crime, but it wouldn’t be terrorism (perhaps you are getting confused by the related term terror bombing?). Lets all cut the hyperbole, we can come to a consensus without calling anyone a _______ apologist. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:15, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

How exactly a UN mandate to protect a country from an unprovoked act of aggression is "imperialism" does not exactly ring write to me. Second as noted above the actions as you described them would be war crimes not terrorism and even then your reading of it as even being a war crime is hardly a settled matter. [80]. 3Kingdoms (talk) 05:12, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• The issue the OP is raising does not concern our personal opinions about the US vs North Korean governments, but rather sourcing. Certainly it should be possible to find more reliable sourcing for that article than a report from a rival government. The article Human trafficking has many RS listed in the references. There are international NGOs and UN groups that are devoted to the trafficking problem, and there are scholars who study it. There is no excuse for sourcing the article almost entirely to the US Dept of State. NightHeron (talk) 22:21, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I have no problem with someone asking that we replace a source with better sources. But the State Department doc is certainly reliable enough that the article should never have been prodded for deletion. That, combined with the IP’s other edits, makes me question whether 82.33 is editing in good faith or just here to POV war. Blueboar (talk) 22:42, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I second Blueboar. Furthermore tend to downplay the fact that government civil servants tend to be strong professionals who regardless of the view of the country in question can still perform task without bias. My issue with the IP is that seem to be pushing a false equivalency between multiparty liberal democracies and one party dictatorships and treating them as though they are the same level of reliable. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:05, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Yup. Given this and their same POV about Cuba, it's time to report this IP to ANI per WP:CIR and WP:TE. Maybe try to get the articles semiprotected too. Also, have any banned or blocked editors acted like this? Could be a sock. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:24, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

(ec)I wasn't questioning the professionalism of people who work for the US govt, which publishes reliable information on many subjects. But reliability depends on context. When the context is accusations against a bitter rival, reliability goes way down. Would the government of India (which is a multi-party democracy) be a good source for a claim about human trafficking in Pakistan? The issue here is not democracy vs dictatorship. Allegations made by a political enemy are low-quality sources. NightHeron (talk) 23:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

That depends on the relative reputations for fact checking and accuracy of the political entities involved. Blueboar (talk) 00:03, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

"Would the government of India be a good source for a claim about human trafficking in Pakistan?" I would for the most part say yes although not as completely as say the US or Japan given India's corruption and other issues, but I imagine most civil servants maintain enough professionalism to be somewhat credible. However this is also a false equivalency since Cuba and the US aren't pointing Nukes at the others, engaged in border skirmishes or in the case of India compared to the United States have large sections of the country under either martial law or "emergency" as India does.3Kingdoms (talk) 23:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Our personal opinions about India's failings as a supposed democracy or the US's failings as a supposed democracy are irrelevant to this discussion.

Aeschylus said that "In war, truth is the first casualty", and that can certainly be extended to cold wars (that were once hot wars, as between the US and N Korea or between India and Pakistan). If the only source that could be found for a claim of human trafficking in Pakistan were an Indian government source, then the claim would not be credible. Analogously for N Korea. I'm not at all defending N Korea on this issue, just saying that the article needs better sourcing than the US State Dept. NightHeron (talk) 01:36, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by "supposed democracy" to you not consider the US one? Also I don't understand your point I simply explained why considering India's reports on Pakistan can be credible, but should be treated with caution, why the US can be treated higher for reasons explained above. 3Kingdoms (talk) 02:35, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

If one wants to add more than they are free to, that does not mean the State Dept is not reliable. 3Kingdoms (talk) 01:48, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I wrote "supposed democracy" because the term democracy is a loaded and emotional term whose definition is a matter of opinion. Clearly both India and the US fall far short of what many people consider democracy. The NY Times (not an anti-American newspaper) recently ran some videos contrasting the obstacles to voting in the US with the ease of voting in many other countries. The court system in the US allows the Republican Party to pass voter-suppression laws in many states. Two of the six most recent US presidential elections resulted in the candidate with fewer votes becoming president (because of the antiquated and undemocratic electoral college system). Running for national office requires huge investments of money, and gives the donors (usually big corporations and PACs) disproportionate influence as lobbyists. I won't go into India's failings, since you have already acknowledged them.

I never said the US State Dept is "unreliable". I said that its degree of reliability depends on context (as is true of many sources for Wikipedia, even the NY Times). Reliability goes down when it writes about a country with which it is in a cold war. NightHeron (talk) 10:10, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that the US State Department is a mirror for the (current, political) US viewpoint, it's not the UN. By way of example, look at what happened with Israel/Palestine reporting by the State Department under the Trump administration, mostly reverted by now but still.Selfstudier (talk) 10:35, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I would agree this is a primary source, and so should be used with care, if at all.Slatersteven (talk) 10:36, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

The 2019 Canadian federal election also had the candidate who lost the popular vote become head of the country. What you have posted is POV and not relevant to the discussion. Democracy is not a loaded term. Finally if you want to add more sources that's fine, but that does not mean the state dept is not reliable, which is the whole point of this talk. 3Kingdoms (talk) 12:21, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I didn't start the irrelevant discussion about the pros and cons of the US government; you and other editors did before I entered the discussion. Any government information source, no matter how virtuous and democratic the government happens to be, needs to be used with great caution when sourcing an allegation about a country with which it is in a cold war. NightHeron (talk) 13:15, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

You continued the discussion and brought in issues that did not concern this topic, I simply countered some of your reasoning, either way I'm dropping this since it is getting off topic.

This (however) is a separate issue from the use of academic sources and should be separated out, they are not linked.Slatersteven (talk) 13:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Just because sources are not neutral does not mean they are unreliable. And in fairness, Western academic publishers publish works covering a range of views including in support of the Cuban government. TFD (talk) 17:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

True but this RFC is about North Korea and US state Department sources, not Cuba or academics.Slatersteven (talk) 17:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

First, this isn’t an RFC… just a discussion. Second, this isn’t just about one article or one source… there is a pattern of editorial behavior by the IP that links the two discussions. Blueboar (talk) 19:09, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

As Blueboar said the bigger issue if the IP clearly pushing the idea that Western nations either by private or public sources can not be considered reliable on communist countries like North Korea and Cuba. This is a view not shared by wikipedia or the rules and the IP and pretty much reads a simple "I don't like" by the IP. 3Kingdoms (talk) 05:18, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

It had been headed as an RFC, so I assumed that is what the OP intended it to be.Slatersteven (talk) 14:30, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

If we can agree that the sourcing of the article on human trafficking in N Korea is inadequate, we should at least put templates such as "More citations needed", "One source", and "Primary source" at the top of the article. NightHeron (talk) 14:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I do not think the sourcing is inadequate, however if someone wanted to add more than go for it. 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Gawker is back

Gawker is back, now owned by the same people who own Bustle. I've updated the RSP entry accordingly. Gawker was always a tabloid style publication, and this new incarnation appears to be no different. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:35, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

The Italian Wars Volume 1: The Expedition of Charles VIII into Italy and the Battle of Fornovo, 1495

Predonzani, Massimo & Alberici, Vincenzo (2019). The Italian Wars Volume 1: The Expedition of Charles VIII into Italy and the Battle of Fornovo, 1495. Helion & Company. ISBN 978-1-912866-52-6.

Does anyone have information concerning Massimo Predonzani and/or Vincenzo Alberici?

According to Helion & Company:

• Massimo Predonzani is not an historian. No mention of any academic standing.
• Vincenzo Alberici is a ?model builder? and not an historian.

Thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:26, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Predonzani is described as a researcher, so I believe that he could have some knowledge maybe, but you are right he is lacking much info. Is there a dispute going on that led you to create a topic here? For the most part the work seems uncontroversial if they are advancing a revisionist history of the War maybe it could be a problem, but I don't think there is too much concern here. 3Kingdoms (talk) 01:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

No dispute, a "new user" posted their opinion that the French casualties at the battle of Fornovo are not accurate(which are cited by Spencer C. Tucker). Their words, "The french certainly did not lose only 200 men." --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Ingenthron's Borderland Rebellion

I recently picked up a group of books pretty cheap at an auction. One of them is Borderland Rebellion, a older book about Missouri in the American Civil War. Publisher is a defunct regional history magazine/newspaper named The Ozarks Mountaineer. Author is one Elmo Ingenthron, a former local school teacher and administrator, so not WP:SPS-level credentials. The book seems to be cited sometimes in RS such as [81] and [82].

Normally, I'd just ignore this as a source due to the obscurity of the publisher, but it's one of the most detailed sources available for the topic of the American Civil War in the Ozarks, which isn't frequently written on, so it would be very convenient for some articles I want to work on (Battle of Clark's Mill, Battle of Hartville) if this were a RS. Normally I'd find myself confident in judging the source's reliability, but when I'm finding myself really wanting the source to be RS, I think it's better to get outside thoughts. Hog Farm _Talk 02:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

All looks good to me. Go for it! 3Kingdoms (talk) 03:46, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Need help with an Arabic-language source

Please comment at Talk:Ertuğrul#born_Possibly_c._1191–1193_in_the_infobox. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Reliability of dictionary.com

I am wondering if dictionary.com is reliable enough to cite for definitions, etymology, etc. Some information on it:

• dictionary.com is directly connected to thesaurus.com, and possibly other reference sites.
• According to its about page, it is currently owned by Rock Holdings, which, according to en-wiki, is a mortgage company.
• Regarding its reliability, it claims that it:

• is based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary. Other dictionaries (Harper Collins and American Heritage) are also used for research.
• is "proprietary".
• hires experts to update and improve the dictionary.

It is actually entirely unneeded if its notability is in question, since several reputable dictionaries like Merriam-Webster and Collins publish online.

I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but I'd like to see it added to WP:RS/P. WIKINIGHTS _talk 15:22, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

• Encyclopedia Brittanica used to be owned by Sears. As best as I can tell, the World Book Encyclopedia is still owned by the Scott Fetzer Company, maker of paint sprayers and knives, which in turn is owned by Berkshire Hathaway, who make underwear and ice cream and many, many profits. So the ownership seems immaterial.
• "Notability" is not our standard for a source. Reliability is.
• The idea that we have two dictionaries, so who needs more, sends a shiver up the spine of wordies and is a logic that would cast aside so many other categories of reference for which we have more than two already.
• Something should have already been asked before it gets added to our list of "perennials", and that only examples I can find where dictionary.com was even questioned for reliability is Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_155#Citogenesis_problem this one, where it was a poster's secondary concern on which nothing move forward, and one passing mention to the idea that if the site had an opinion section, that wouldn't necessarily be reliable. Generally, when cited in discussion on this board, it's to provide a definition.

Do you have some specific reason to question the source's reliability (specifically on definitions, which is what it primarily used for)? --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

What are you planning on using this dictionary for exactly? Like what type of articles. If you are using it for controversial topics or the editors of that site don’t know much about a particular topic I wouldn’t recommend it to be honest. Like if you were gonna use it for the definition of a certain disease I would recommend a medical source instead.CycoMa (talk) 15:55, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I confused notability and reliability (as words) in my head, sorry. I just need a dictionary citation to verify the meaning of the prefix cyto- at "Skeleton". When nothing is controversial, one/two reliable sources should be fine so that a reader can quickly verify. I was wondering about dictionary.com as a potential source because I had seen it in a few other articles.

There are a number of reasons to question the reliability of dictionary.com, which relate to its unique existence as only a website or the lack of information one can find about it. From the RS we cite at "dictionary.com", several names of its staff are known, and some of them had previously worked on Random House. This may be enough to substantiate its reliability for a non-controversial citation, but I would say that a known reputable printed dictionary is more reliable. WIKINIGHTS _talk 16:47, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Since it is based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, I would use the Random House or another dictionary instead. When choosing reliable sources, I consider what if it's wrong. Good dictionaries explain their definitions in their unabridged versions and these can be crosschecked with competing dictionaries. Dictionary.com does not do that since its purpose is to quickly provide definitions of words to people reading online. They're not interested in subtle distinctions of meaning. So Dictionary.com defines evil as "morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked,"[83] while Lexico.com defines it as "Profoundly immoral and wicked."[84] If they had unabridged versions, we could consult them to determine which definition is more correct. TFD (talk) 16:49, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

While dictionary.com is not necessarily unreliable, especially considering that its definitions presumably are usually uncontroversial, I'm not sure why you would use it when there are more reliable sources available. Onelook.com is a good way to access online dictionaries (although, to be clear, onelook.com includes both reliable and unreliable sources). When I go there and enter "cyto," I get links to a number of online definitions, including several solidly reliable sources: Merriam-Webster, Oxford Dictionaries (not the OED, but still RS), American Heritage, and Collins. (There also purports to be a link to Webster's New World, which is RS, but it's actually a bad link to YourDictionary.com.) So there are better quality sources readily available, and they cover both British and American usage. John M Baker (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Science-Based Medicine

Prior Discussions:

• sciencebasedmedicine.org 2018
• Film_review_by_David_Gorski... 2012

Since then two statements from Novella and Gorski:

• "we allow trusted authors to publish without prior review for the sake of efficiency and timeliness..."
• "Our own editors, however, have earned the privilege of publishing articles without prior review, since they have a proven track record."

This is no doubt a very useful source, influential and respected, but still much content is self-published and not subject to review.

The RSNP entry states that it "...publishes a robust set of editorial guidelines...". All I can find is: the submission guidelines which are hardly robust and i see not other links in the prior discussions.

The RSNP entry should be updated to reflect that some content is self-published and remove the statement concerning the editorial guidelines unless something else can be found. fiveby(zero) 17:47, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

It's not self-published as the website excercises post-publication editorial oversight, as can be seen with the recent Irreversible Damage review, which was promptly retracted. I think you'd be suprised how lax the actual editorial control is for most of our other "reliable sources" like newspapers. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:58, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I concur with Hemiauchenia here; I don't see grounds to change what the RSP entry currently says. XOR'easter (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)twiceAgree with the others here. It probably wouldn't change too much anyway, as far as practical usage here is concerned, since the source is already being used for attributed expert opinions to refute quackery/pseudo-science/misinformation, which isn't much covered by better scientific sources anyway. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:03, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

If SBM was considered self-published, it means it wouldn't be allowed to be used in BLPs per WP:BLPSPS. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:04, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

To be precise, it would mean it wouldn't be allowed for biographical content anywhere on Wikipedia. Since there is editorial that can (and does) correct or retract content, I don't see how this can be "self published". Alexbrn (talk) 18:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ah, yeah, right. The same way it's possible to base a whole BLP on such sources? [ok, the rant about NPROF goes elsewhere]. Anyways, I agree that, since the source actually appears to have editorial oversight, the complaint here seems unfounded. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:12, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

• Its certainly a significant slip in terms of oversight but they were never excellent to begin with and aren’t awful now so I don’t think anything has really changed, however if they degrade much more they would be in SPS territory and a rethink of the existing consensus would be required. I would note that even as an SPS not much would change, most of the author’s opinions are still notable as is. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:10, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
• The problem with saying a source is reliable because it publishes errors but retracts them later, is that the source may be used in a BLP prior to that retraction, doing further damange and possibly remaining if editors do not realise that a retraction occured - assuming that the error is picked up by the source at all. What is needed is that the editorial control be excercised before publication, not solely after. If authors are publishing directly, without editorial oversight prior to publication, then it seems to meet the criteria of an SPS. Still useful, still valid for expert and attributed opinions, but an SPS. - Bilby (talk) 18:17, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

  Bilby, It is my understanding that the most controversial BLP statements require multiple RSes, not just one. In that case, SBM does not degrade our content in that arena, as it is only verifying what others have already said.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 22:06, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  If it is an SPS, and there are other sources for the content, then we use the other sources and we don't need to use the SPS. If there are no other sources, we don't use the SPS and don't add the claim. - Bilby (talk) 22:33, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• SBN is a topical site, and that topic is medical skepticism. As such, it would be quite impossible for them not to have editorial oversight, regardless of how they classify it, else they would not remain topical. The editors at SBM are doctors and researchers; editorial control which they consider lax or minimal would probably be on par with "strict" editorial control at a journalism-focused outlet, owing to their deep commitment to factual accuracy. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:22, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm probably not understanding your argument, but as far as I'm aware, whether or not something is topical is unrelated to how it is published. - Bilby (talk) 08:27, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

    The point I was making was that, in order to remain topical, a certain level of editorial oversight is required, lest some writer decide SBM is a good place to host their video game reviews and political commentary. This is true of any topical source. Someone is necessarily reviewing submissions and saying "Yes, this is within our purview," or "No, this is not appropriate for our site".

    But it's worth pointing out that the specific topic in this case also requires the use of fact-checking and review, lest it fall outside the norms and practices of said topic. See Skeptical movement for more on those norms. Evidence of this practice is apparent in every single article published by the site. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Given they specifically stated that the do not check articles by some authors before those authors publish the articles on their site, I don't feel that editorial control prior to publication is necessary for it to be topical. That's an odd argument, but I don't see how it could hold. - Bilby (talk) 22:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Keep status quo, RS. The post-publication review, pre-editorial review, and set of standards on what counts as good ethics in their reporting are what make this source reliable in my eyes. I think you'll find that in these statements they're just verbalizing and being honest about what other outlets (newspapers, definitely) have always been doing. We find errors in reporting of even our best RSes, and even scientific journals (which this is not, and is not trying to be) make errors and are forced to retract. SBM retracts and keeps itself honest. We are starving for reliable sources in pseudoscientific topic areas. We should continue to use SBM as an RS.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 22:04, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  The question is when the errors are found. Forbes, YouTube and Facebook all remove content if problems are found after content is published, but this doesn't mean that content on those sites is not self-published. To be self-published the author needs to both write and choose to publish the content themselves; if there are processes which then allow content to be retrospectivly removed, it is a good thing, but doesn't change the initial self-publication process. - Bilby (talk) 22:33, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• It's an RS. This is querulous. - David Gerard (talk) 23:24, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
• Has a good track record of scientific accuracy and is often useful for WP:PARITY and to apply the WP:PSCI policy. —PaleoNeonate – 23:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

From the original post, content from "trusted authors" and editors is not reviewed prior to publication. This would make such content fall into the self-published classification. It is likely expert self-published content so it would be usable in relevant non-blp context, but it would not be usable where BLP applies. --Kyohyi (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Also from the original post: Our review of the article in question and the decision to retract was entirely internally generated by the editors. which belies your claim of no editorial oversight. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Kyohyi does not appear to have claimed that there was no editorial oversight. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

What, exactly, would you describe as the difference between a self-published source and one which is not self-published? If it's anything other than the lack of independent editorial oversight, then be prepared for examples that undermine your definition. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

"is not reviewed prior to publication” =/= "no editorial oversight," you’re either arguing past them or being disingenuous. You must know thats its editorial review prior to publication which matters most for our purposes, are you sure that your passion for the source isn’t overriding your normally logical nature? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

You haven't answered my question. Also, I'd like to see where in our P&Gs it states that editorial oversight is required to be exercised prior to publication, because that looks like an invention.

And yes, I'm quite sure, as I'm not really passionate about it at all. One wonders why you feel the need to assume I am. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:21, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I don’t intend to answer your question, all I intend to do is inform you that you appear to be mischaracterizing the argument of another wikipedian. That is important, no? Also we’ve been around each other long enough for me to know that you have a passion for skepticism, if thats news to you I’m proud to be able to let you know more about yourself. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The answer to my question would be a determinant factor in whether your claim of what I appear to be doing is even remotely accurate.

As for the rest of your comment, it's unnecessarily personalized bs that doesn't merit any response. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Its literally irrelevant, "is not reviewed prior to publication” =/= "no editorial oversight” end of story. This is not how you handle this sort of thing, at the very least you need to WP:AGF and realize that to another reasonable editor it looks like you mischaracterized an argument. There is no reason to go on the attack, let alone attack a friendly. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Pissing contest

I'd recommend dropping this, MPants and I had a pissing match not too long ago. --Kyohyi (talk) 17:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC) Ah, I didn’t understand that this was personal. That would explain the fire eating and disregard for civility. I will ignore it. @MPants at work: consider yourself warned, if I see this sort of thing again I won’t be able to ignore it so easily. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:56, 9 August 2021 (UTC) Pinging me after I explicitly disengaged does a lot to evince my point, but nothing to make me change my mind about you. Don't do it again. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC) Your claim to being "a friendly" is belied by the incredible contortion of logic that led you to interpret me explaining the problems with any possible answer other than the one I provided was some sort of poor behavior on my part. Indeed, that matches quite well with the over-personalization of our last disagreement on this subject you engaged in. I think it's rather apparent that your only purpose here is casting aspersions, so I'll not be engaging with you further. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC) Taking a second to read over that again I think you also need to take a step back, your hackles are clearly up and when you’re saying things like "be prepared for examples that undermine your definition.” you’re backing yourself into wp:battleground territory which I assure you is not called for, I’m more than willing to discuss this calmly and for as long as you want to. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC) your hackles are clearly up Oh, get over yourself. You reading too much into my comments is not my problem, and I could easily frame this as a trolling comment. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC) You can frame it however you want, what you can not continue to do is be uncivil. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2021 (UTC) Please read WP:ASPERSIONS and moderate your own behavior appropriately. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Kyohyi, would you also describe The Conversation as an SPS? Because RSP considers it GR. Would you also describe healthfeedback.org as an SPS? Would you also describe The Economist as an SPS? Or The New Republic? All of these have similar practices to SBM in this regard.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 23:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Shibboleth, sorry to jump in here, but do any of those publications state that they allow contributors to directly publish to their sites without going through an editorial process prior to publication? - Bilby (talk) 05:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

What's characterized as self-published is covered in Note 9 of WP: V. It is the independent reviewers validating the reliability of content that changes a source from self-published to not-self published. It is also implied (though not explicitly stated) via the second bullet example in note 9 that this review should happen prior to publication. Of the three examples you listed, The Economist explicitly states "Every single article we publish is checked for accuracy and credibility. We have a dedicated Research department to support this task." and "Our Research department works on edited copy as close to the final version as deadlines allow. We check against original sources that we believe to be reliable; for items that cannot be verified directly we form a view based on other credible information." which demonstrates they do their review process prior to publication. I couldn't find any review process in Healthfeedback, from it's about page it appears to be an expert-based crowd-sourced review site, so likely self-published but trying to keep it limited to experts in their fields. For the conversation they have an editorial team, and claim to be a newspaper so it can be assumed that they review articles prior to publication. The new republic publishes a magazine so presumably it has some editorial review process for that, but I couldn't find anything spelling it out, nor what areas besides the magazine would be reviewed and what wouldn't be. Now the source in question openly admits that they do not do a review prior to publication for "trusted Authors" and editors. The only source in your list that would be close to this practice would be Healthfeedback which I would also say is a self-publishing source. I would also note that there is nothing in RSP that says SPS can not be Generally reliable. Generally Reliable is per SPS: reliable in most cases on subject matters in its areas of expertise. Self-published expert sources writing in their own field could also fall into that characterization. Further Generally reliable goes on to state "or a higher standard of sourcing is required (WP:MEDRS, WP:BLP) for the statement in question." which would mean a generally reliable source could be unusable in contexts such as BLP, which is of course the case for self-published sources. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:39, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

By your arguments, it would follow that The Conversation is not RS, either. In SBM's case, David Gorski and a group of volunteers do the review (unless, as was admitted, a few editors have a possibility to publish without prior review; but that's not reflected in editorial guidelines yet, so presumably it still passes through Dr. Gorski). In The Conversation, (submission criteria) the criteria do not differ substantially but the editors are anonymous. The New Republic only sets general criterion of importance of idea and fitness to publish an article there, but does not detail any specific criteria, which would presumably discredit the outlet, according to OP's logic, because they are definitely less rigorous than SBM's, regardless of what you think of the current criteria.

That you (well, we rather aren't) are able to freely post on some website is a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for the source to be labeled SPS. The other thing that matters is the reaction to any bullshit or blatant falsehood that might appear on the webpage. No editor here has credibly suggested that nothing will be done at all if such BS appears; and so far there is no indication that there isn't going to be any reaction (in fact, one of the sources is a retraction notice, which is another sign that even trusted editors' content may be removed, and Dr. Hall publishes there rather frequently). And also, such "privileged" authors do not make up 100% of posts, do they? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:12, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• Just because the sentence says that trusted editors may bypass the usual review doesn't mean anyone can publish there, and unless we see evidence of abuse of "trusted editors" to include incompetent people or if these people start making bullshit claims, nothing should be changed. There are no indications of deterioration of quality of content, the determination of which is the main objective of RSP (and not the determination of the independent review process, which is indicative of good quality but not its only measure), or dubious "experts" speaking on the tribune of SBM. Everything that matters is already in the RSP entry, and also I concur fully with Shibboleth in what he says.

As for potential uses for WP:BLP claims, being quite a regular reader of the outlet, apart from calling folks like Joe Mercola charlatans and kooks, I can't recall any worthy instances of mentioning BLP claims in Wikipedia cited to SBM only. A lot of that could be included simply as opinions of researchers/recognised medicine sceptics, i.e. attributed. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:12, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Alternative Influence report

A report called "Alternative Influence" has been used as a source on the pages Carl Benjamin, Dave Rubin, and the Social impact of YouTube, among others. The report was also picked up by some media outlets[85][86]. However, the report was written by only one person and doesn't appear to have been peer-reviewed, so it might not be a reliable source. X-Editor (talk) 23:04, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Academic sources treat it as reliable in these contexts. Its categories and methodology have been used in subsequent papers by others in a peer-reviewed context [87][88]. It had quite wide coverage in popular media [89][90][91] and in relevant academic subdomains from a variety of angles, so most statements in it are probably DUE.

Caveat: arguments this report makes about YouTube are based on the nature of that platform at time of publication in 2018. The author has stated subsequently that YouTube has changed, so it would be worth making clear the publication date in these contexts.

At this point, I've talked mostly about this specific publication, and I have argued that its treatment by other sources may mean it is reliable and due in most related contexts. I will briefly discuss at the level of publisher and author as well:

Publisher: Data & Society is a nonprofit research org that concentrates on technology. I have not found a specific statement about their fact-checking process. However, their publications get quite a good amount of media coverage, and their reports and personnel are often treated as experts in interviews and media outreach.

Author: Becca Lewis is an early-career academic getting a PhD at Stanford. She has a handful of peer-reviewed publications and has been treated as an expert on analysis of online phenomena and the online right in mainstream media publications [92]. Her peer-reviewed research is highly related to the topics in the Data & Society report.

In conclusion, this specific source shows a lot of signs that we can treat it as an RS. It has received significant media coverage, has been used and cited in subsequent peer-reviewed academic articles, its publisher seems to have a good reputation, and its author is an early-stage academic with peer-reviewed work in the same field. Though early-career, she has been treated as an expert on these topics in mainstream media.

For noncontroversial statements and statements referenced in outside RS, this report can probably be referenced without attribution. For statements that are controversial and not covered by outside RS, it may be worth attributing in some contexts. Jlevi (talk) 14:09, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I concur with Jlevi on all of this. Important and impactful report, carefully assembled by respected researcher - David Gerard (talk) 20:31, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

also agree with Jlevi. It's a reliable source where other sources have relied upon it, and a quotable source where they have not.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I think how it gets used is something to consider. If a independent RS cites part of it I think we should consider it as something like the opinion of an expert that has been given weight due to others citing the opinion. However, if we are just pulling out something that no RSs have covered when discussing the report then we need to consider that it was not peer reviewed and thus becomes the opinion of a group. I don't see that the group is widely, generally cited like say CATO or ADL. I'm also not sure it's DUE when this study is used to say something like [Youtube person] is a gateway to alt-right ideas. In that case the real news is that Youtube algorithms were linking people. That doesn't mean [Youtube person] is expressing any ideas that should be considered controversial nor that they have tried to associate with (etc) the far/extreme-right groups. It also shouldn't be used to say "Mrs Y is far-right" citing a classification list used in that paper. Springee (talk) 18:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

RfC at the Abortion talk-page on the Guttmacher Institute as a source

Two editors objected to the use of the Guttmacher Institute as a sourse for the Abortion article, so I started an RfC on this question, see [93]. Your participation is welcome. NightHeron (talk) 11:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

FB Publishing

This is used in 4 articles and a draft.[94] It was hard to find anything about it but I did find this which says "FB Publishing is a niche imprint for bringing new and established authors writing about Islam and other non-western topics and beliefs. Primarily a POD and eBook publisher, we leverage these technologies and a network of proven contractors to offer a full suite of publishing services and share all profits with our authors. We know this works, as our authors are extending their contracts for longer terms. Our company has also started a new imprint- ClearSky publishing for more main stream titles."

Anyone disagree that we should treat this as a self-publishing house? Doug Weller talk 13:06, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

The print-on-demand mention and the various published titles I see strongly suggest that it's indeed self-publishing... —PaleoNeonate – 05:28, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Another unreliable Haaretz article

Take a look: "The Myth of Haredi Moral Authority Haredi Judaism isn't our forefathers' religion, but a radical and dangerous new cult.". Link: https://www.haaretz.com/shahar-ilan-judaism-s-extreme-makeover-1.5266176 This fringe view does not belong on Wikipedia. How much sense is this making? Pinging Debresser IZAK155.246.151.38 (talk) 17:53, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Haaretz, a radical left-wing ultra-secular piece of junk journalism, is citing a dangerous revisionist view. Haredi Judaism is part of Rabbinical Judaism, if not the main part of it, and it's thousands of years old. Not a "cult" -- just because Jews, and religious, or Haredi Jews, are only a small minority of the world's religions does not make them a "cult" that borders on slander and hate and is totally false. IZAK (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

“a radical left-wing ultra-secular piece of junk journalism” I don’t think it is, what exactly are you basing that on? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Here are some diffs [95] [96]155.246.151.38 (talk) 18:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment Guess I must be a radical left-wing ultra-secular consumer of junk journalism (scratches head). Haaretz is RS, last time I looked. I would treat that article as an opinion piece by the VP for Hiddush, For Religious Freedom and Equality, whatever that is. Selfstudier (talk) 18:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Anyone who calls Haredi Judaism and Jews a "cult" is stupid, ignorant and obviously either an antisemite or a self hating Jew guilty of a blood libel and should be barred and banned. While Reform Judaism is given a free pass when it is nothing but a front for the wholesale abandonment of Judaism in favor of ultra-secularism and conversion to Christianity. Many secular Israelis just HATE the Haredim and spout their hatred shamelessly. WP should not swallow such journalistic junk as a "RS". IZAK (talk) 21:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Given that you are talking about a living person and yourself denigrating an entire religious movement, I would tread carefully. Dumuzid (talk) 21:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

What "living person" we are debating the obvious hatred of a journalist for Haredim and Haredi Judaism by calling them a "cult". You mean the guy in Haaretz is denigrating Haredim and Haredi Judaism, which is it? So you agree with me then? It takes two to tango. IZAK (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

There is a difference between things said on and off wiki. You are certainly entitled to your opinions; you are not entitled to air all of your opinions on Wikipedia. Dumuzid (talk) 22:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• You fairly directly just called the journalist in question stupid, ignorant and obviously either an antisemite or a self hating Jew guilty of a blood libel. The last three in particular are unambiguously BLP-sensitive accusations; I suggest you strike or redact your comment. --Aquillion (talk) 06:54, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Seems to me this is obviously an opinion piece of Shahar Ilan, not something the source claims is factual news reporting. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Issue is Haaretz is not labeling this as opinion.155.246.151.38 (talk) 18:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

This would be a problem if Wikipedia were using it to substantiate some sort of fact, but I am not seeing that. As an opinion piece in a bibliography giving an admittedly non-mainstream perspective, I think it is fine. Reasonable minds may differ. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The statement at the bottom "The writer is the vice president of Hiddush, For Religious Freedom and Equality." clearly indicates it is not a staff writer (and click through his name , this is clear in his biography "Shahar Ilan is the former Haaretz correspondent for religious affairs. He is now the vice president of research and information for Hiddush, an organization for the promotion of religious tolerance.") In general for RSes, any work not done by a staff writer is considered an op-ed. --Masem (t) 22:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Its leftwingyness is not a reason to say its unreliable (and is a good reason to reject any argument based on such reasoning, as to whether or not it is an opp-edd. It does not seem to be lable as one, so usable with attribution I think.Slatersteven (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Would you be perfectly fine with an article saying "According to Haaretz Haredi Judaism is a radical and dangerous new cult"?!?!

This is a violation of NPOV and a whole bananza of wikipedia policies.155.246.151.38 (talk) 18:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes I would be fine with that, and I fail to see why it would violate any policies. Haaretz is an RS and they appear to have taken ownership of this peice.Slatersteven (talk) 18:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Yup, WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV is the solution when rational, reality-based WP:RS disagree. According to WP:RSP Haaretz is generally speaking reliable. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:48, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about saying that it is Haaretz's view as opposed to allowing an opinion piece to be published. I think saying the "x person writing in Y says this". 3Kingdoms (talk) 21:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment Haaretz is a reliable source, but given this is an opinion piece it should reflect that. However I feel calling them a dangerous cult to be somewhat fringe. They are vert strict religiously, but that does not make a cult. Futhemore they are an assortment of groups that hold numerous different views just look at Neturei Karta compared to Shas. 3Kingdoms (talk) 20:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I basically agree with this, but all I can find it currently used for is in a bibliography to represent a view out there in the world. I think that's an appropriate use. If it were cited to for a factual assertion, we would indeed have to be very careful. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Haaretz publishes opinion pieces as well, and its opinions are often anti-religious. Opinion pieces obviously should not be treated as reliable sources, see WP:RSEDITORIAL. Debresser (talk) 20:51, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• • So? In liberal democracies people deride religions mercilessly. That's why these are called free countries. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • I think you all need to watch https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/free-hebrew-bible-course-with-shaye-cohen/ wherein Shaye J. D. Cohen says something like the prohibition of everything new, is new and who would make such a prohibition? someone who feels threatened by something new. The gist: this is the Fundamentalist–Modernist controversy, replayed by fundamentalist Jews against secular Jews, here at Wikipedia as WP:BATTLEGROUND. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• It looks like an opinion article. If you read reputable American or British media, even there you may find opinion articles (or sections of articles that are mostly opinion) without it being explicitly labeled as opinion. Haaretz is not a scholarly source and, in this case, is not a good enough source to include in an encyclopedic summary (aka article) when there is so much better scholarship out there. Even if this was published in a peer-reviewed journal by an established expert, it would be too extreme a claim to assert it as fact. WIKINIGHTS _talk 22:31, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Having read the article I really don't think its worth having. Its polemical and full hyperbole without explaining his issue with them. One section is just about them declaring only one type of Kosher food to be kosher. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• So we should not represent this as fact. We should not represent this at all, as a matter of fact. We do write about every opinion on Wikipedia. And surely not about such a fringe opinion. Debresser (talk) 22:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Some parts of it are a bit hyperbolic and I think its clear that this person is writing in their capacity as the vice president of Hiddush (a notable and *non-fringe* nonprofit) not as a journalist for Haaretz or something like that. That being said on the reliability front there are no technical inaccuracies so I’m not really seeing that argument. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it is more of a case of undue weight and fringe. When you here cult you usually think of Mason family, Waco, FLDS Church, etc. Here it just seems that he doesn't like some of the actions of these people, thinking that they are elitist and hold regressive views on interactions between the sexes, one might not agree, but it fairly mainstream point of view, but that hardly makes them a cult. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Cult is a subjective term, what is a legitimate religious organization to one person might be a cult to another. I think most observers prefer cult like when talking about Haredi social structures but in an opinion piece a bit of license is given. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It is subjective, at the same time claims of mainstream religions like Catholics, Mormonism, or Ahmadiyya, is considered a bigoted statment. I don't wish to imply that the writer of the article, but I think using the term cult makes the article more fringe/ undue. "Cult like" might be better, but I am mixed on it. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:48, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It is? Don’t most atheists consider all religions to be cults? I hardly think that they’re bigoted, its an entirely subjective term like heathen or patriot... One person sees a heathen and another sees a true believer one person sees a patriot and another sees a terrorist... Both are accurate interpretations of a situation from their perspective. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think so, most atheists I know don't consider all religions cults. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:57, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Thats interesting then, maybe I just know angry atheists. They do seem to use the wider cult, I’m not suggesting that they’re saying that religion is a destructive or doomsday cult (what most people first think then they hear “cult”) but it is most certainly still a pejorative. I guess one question to ask is how literally is it meant to be interpreted? For example should we exclude any opinion piece about American politics which refers to a “Trump cult” as fringe because the group they’re describing is very obviously not a traditional Waco style cult? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:05, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

A Trump "cult" would be a cult of personality,(unless someone decides to form a religion around him), which is secular in nature. If you in that case if the article was from a reliable source and good quality it could be used. My issue is more that this article really doesn't have much of a clear focus or why we should consider them a cult. 3Kingdoms (talk) 00:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Because they reject modernity? tgeorgescu (talk) 00:48, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

How so?

With all due respect the line you’re drawing between religious and secular cults doesn’t exist and even if it did would be irrelevant for our purposes. Religions and the religious are not a protected class here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:05, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Cult of personality Cult this site treats them as separate. This site strives for NPOV. 3Kingdoms (talk) 14:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• Haaretz is a reliable source. Unlike most of the right-wing Israeli sources that are cited frequently, Haaretz usually labels articles as "news" or "opinion", but this time neither label appears. We are allowed to judge what it is and this article is obviously "opinion". Therefore, the only requirement for Haaretz reliability is that they accurately reported it. If it is used in articles, the correct attribution is "according to Shahar Ilan". Someone above proposed "according to Haaretz". That would be a citation error, though a very common one, as it is not Haaretz' opinion. Only the official editorials that Haaretz publishes should be attributed as Haaretz' opinion. Zero^talk 05:57, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• Even if it reliable for the view of Hidush movment who said it WP:DUE to include? --Shrike (talk) 09:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Canvassing

@155.246.151.38: this series of posts [97][98][99][100][101] would appear to violate our behavioral guidelines around on campaigning and votestacking. I take it that you were not aware of the existence of our Wikipedia:Canvassing restrictions? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Also come on... "Contacting journalists and reporters will be very helpful because sunlight is the best disinfectant when it comes to wikicrats who like to hide behind what they claim to be policy.” is going to get you blocked in two seconds flat... You can’t be encouraging people to take off wiki action to further a policy dispute you’re involved with. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:53, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

This is dangerous and if not stopped now, all of Judaism will be under attack! And the source of all this antisemitic propaganda is claimed to be a Jewish newspaper. See above about WP:BATTLEGROUND. The IP seems to believe that the worst enemies of Jews are Jews. Take a look at [102]. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

As does this [[103]], which pings a lot of users, and can be seen as a call to arms with comments like (in this post [[104]]).Slatersteven (talk) 09:51, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

RS status not in question, and yet...

As I've noted elsewhere recently (diff), and perhaps this bears repeating, Wikipedia considers Haaretz to be Israel's Paper of record (for some reason). That it often indulges in SJW excesses (and snobby paywall'ing) is to its discredit, I'd argue, but that's just my opinion. El_C 14:47, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

We Hunted the Mammoth

I am currently doing a cleanup of the YouTube suspensions page, and for some of the entries (mainlly Roosh V's) I could only find articles from We Hunted the Mammoth as verified proof. For those who don't know, it is a website that is dedicated to monitoring activities in the incel and so-called "Manosphere" communities, and was actually featured in a New York Times article on this topic, and a cursory glance shows it is cited in some Wikipedia articles. However the website has a very blog feel to it, and does have a informal, borderline-irreverent tone to its articles. My question is based on these factors, can this website be used as a citation? I couldn't find any mention of it in the archives. Mount Patagonia (talk) 20:29, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• So, definitely a blog, as it is usually classified, but its author, David Futrelle, has appeared in the New York Times, as noted, has authored an opinion piece in the Washington Post[105] and a review on NPR[106] both on the same broad topic of misogyny, and has been noted on Vox as a journalist with some expertise in the area[107]. As such, I think we should basically treat it as an expert blog, per WP:BLOG. I know that's not much for helpful guidance, but I think yes, we can use it with caution, but better to back it up for contentious claims. Just one old guy's opinion. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I definitely think that whether someone was banned from YouTube has to be treated as WP:BLP sensitive, unless the channel isn't linked to a specific individual. So I don't think we can use a blog for that, regardless of the author's reputation. --Aquillion (talk) 06:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• We Hunted the Mammoth is a self-published blog. It should be never be used for claims about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia, per WP:BLPSPS. Given the blog's purpose is to mock right-wing individuals, particularly those that are part of the manosphere per it's tagline: Misogyny, tracked and mocked, it is entirely unusable as a source. There are better academic sources that discuss manosphere groups. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Given the blog's purpose is to mock right-wing individuals Its purpose is to mock misogynists; these are not identically the same thing as right-wing individuals. I see that the first version of your comment just said "right-wing individuals" without the expansion, suggesting you see the source in party political terms first - David Gerard (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
    • David, I dislike Manosphere groups as much as you. I was using the term "right-wing individuals" due to Futrelle's blog also covering American conservatives/far right figures. Some of that coverage goes outside the strict realms of mysogyny. Obviously mysogyny and the manosphere are Futrelle's main focus, but not exclusively. My concern is WP:BLP, we should not be using self-published blogs for claims about living people. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
      • On that I concur - David Gerard (talk) 21:31, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• It's a blog. The author is a freelance journalist, as noted, and writes in RSes on the same topics. That said, it's a blog - David Gerard (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• I would very largely avoid it. It's arguably 'an expert blog' in the sense of 'no-one else documents a particular strand of thought quite as well', but also it's heavily biased and has a strong agenda (one I agree with, but hey!). We definitely definitely can't use it for BLP articles and in other circumstances I would be very cautious. Struggling to think of occasions when its use would be appropriate. The Land (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

End-product label about the contents of a mineral preparation

Hello, I'm working on a draft about a term describing several mineral substances.
When I translated from the German article, I also transferred a slightly weird citation. I never had this case before: They support a statement saying that "long-term oral ingestion may cause siliceous kidney stones" by citing the product label on the end-product bottle they found in a shop, I think.
What do you think about this special case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk • contribs) 23:13, 9 August 2021 (UTC) --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 23:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC) Edited in a more stable link for (my link to) the citation; also forgot to sign after my first edit here, sry.

It would be preferable to use published research, not the label on the bottle. Likely falls under WP:MEDRS, which I recommend reading. There has definitely been some research done on silicate kidney stones in humans, though it may not use the term "siliceous earth": e.g.[108]. - Ryk72 ^talk 00:23, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I got my Wikipdia Library Card only a few hours ago, but already do have access to the basic access package. However, I still consider myself quite green in searching for academic info, especially studies. Would you be so kind and point me in this case? --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 01:47, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Reading thorugh WP:MEDRS made me think of calling an official national health organization or perhaps the ministry for food safety and ask if they have anything. --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 01:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)