Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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RfC on MOS:SECTIONCAPS after a colon

Should MOS:SECTIONCAPS recommend that, in a heading, the first letter after a colon is capitalized?

That is, should this example be reversed?

Use: 1891–1940: early history
Avoid: 1891–1940: Early history

Similar past discussions: May 2023, October 2022, March 2022. Wracking ^talk! 05:43, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• Yes. Nobody follows this guidance, on or off Wikipedia. On Wikipedia, most people already capitalize after the colon. (85% of articles, by my count.) The Chicago Manual of Style and APA style recommend capitalizing after a colon in a heading (yes, even in sentence case). Wracking ^talk! 05:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Remove the example/don't specify. Thanks all, for your thoughtful comments. I agree. We really didn't need this example in the first place per WP:CREEP. Wracking ^talk! 18:36, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. AP Stylebook as well: Capitalize only the first word and proper nouns in headlines that use AP style. Exception: The first word after a colon is always uppercase in headlines. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 08:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Remove, capitals used as is consistent with the page's variant of English Hyphenation Expert (talk) 09:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

    The idea that variants of English come with capitalization styles is novel to me. Did you just invent that, or does it come from somewhere? Dicklyon (talk) 16:40, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

    Yeah, I've read nearly every style guide published since the late 19th century, and I've never seen any evidence for such an idea.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

    UK: don't capitalise.

    The Guardian When a colon is used in a headline, the next word is usually lowercase, eg Osborne: there is no plan B.

    Cambridge Use sentence case for headings and headlines (and also remember to use lower case after a colon)

    Oxford Headlines, journal articles, chapter titles and lecture titles: Only capitalise the first word... ‘Multiplicity of data in trial reports and the reliability of meta-analyses: empirical study’

    ICL Sentence case should be used for headlines and the titles of articles, chapters and lectures... ‘The impact of sleep and hypoxia on the brain: potential mechanisms for the effects of obstructive sleep apnea’ Hyphenation Expert (talk) 01:16, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

    Zero of them say this is a feature of British English, and you can find American style guides that also prefer this capitalization habit. You are mistaking the cross-pollinating habits of a handful of publishers in Britain with an inherent feature of the language of Britian. It's a common error, but still an error.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:35, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

• Don't specify. We don't need a rule about this and we certainly don't need to follow what some American style guides do.—S Marshall T/C 08:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. No one's reading speed or comprehension is going to be affected by a single capital letter. This specification provides absolutely no benefit to readers and belongs to the WP:CREEP territory. Carpimaps ^{talk to me!} 16:10, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• US usage varies. The guideline is fine as it is. Tony (talk) 11:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
• Treat it as just another WP:STYLEVAR issue. Either is fine, in case of dispute retain whichever variant was first used. 74.73.224.126 (talk) 22:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  For sake of clarity, prefer remove/don't specify though if some people really want to explicitly note that both are fine, I won't stand in the way. 74.73.224.126 (talk) 22:20, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• Australian government style manual: After a colon, capitalise the first word of questions that are complete sentences. This makes it clear that the question mark applies only to the text after the colon. [1] Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

  I wouldn't cite the "Snookbook": it's crappy. Tony (talk) 01:20, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

  There's no such thing as a crappy style guide. Language is whatever people want it to be. The better question is if the style guide unpopular? That's the real issue... I would agree an unimportant, unused style guide's opinion doesn't matter. (but Chicago Manual of Style, regardless of an Australian guide, is pretty damn important regardless.) SnowFire (talk) 17:23, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

  capitalise the first word of questions — Not applicable here, because MOS:SECTIONSTYLE says that "section headings should ... Not be phrased as a question". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

• No change (the existing "use lower case, avoid capitalisation" is correct). According to Colon_(punctuation)#Use_of_capitals, with my emphasis here, "American English permits capitalisation" but does not require it. Wikipedia's MOS:CAPS says "avoid unnecessary capitalization", use sentence case (and a colon does not start a new sentence) and we should be consistent — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitch Ames (talk • contribs)
• Remove guidance. Initial capitals following colons are standard, as a quick browse of many published books or Internet sites shows. Wikipedia should follow actual usage, and besides, plenty of perfectly valid style guides explicitly recommend the usage. I'd personally be inclined to reverse the guidance and mandate capitals, but per WP:CREEP, just let the main editor of an article use a consistent style, regardless of what it is. People who prefer the lowercase can be happy that way, just let others use the valid, common, and style-guide approved capital. SnowFire (talk) 17:23, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
• No change for the following reasons:
  1. The existing guidance is marginally simpler (no need to carve out an exception to sentence case for word after colons).
  2. There’s no need to comply with any particular 3rd party style guide - Wikipedia defines its own style and doesn’t need to stick to sources in this respect, unlike for article content. This is not to say we should completely ignore best practice in sources, but they are a weak influence. There’s every chance that we are the experts for our use case and will come up with better guidance than any external style guide.
  3. Change may prompt a flurry of rather pointless edits to achieve “compliance”.
  4. There does seem to be some (very) slight advantage to the existing guidance: Linking is easier if titles are in sentence case. It is easier for articles to be merged or split if headings resemble titles.
  5. There’s so little difference either way that my second choice after no change would be to remove the guidance completely and leave it to local consensus. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 18:38, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
• Remove guidance , unnecessary rules creep with no demonstrated strong advantage. It is also good to remove rules in the MoS that go against common usage and real world style manuals. —Kusma (talk) 18:43, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
• Remove. No need to have MOS guidance on post-colon capitalisation if nobody follows it anyway. Can be revised if situation changes. Alpha3031 (t • c) 03:50, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
• Do specify - There have been several suggestions to ""remove guidance", but I propose that we should have an example or explicit guidance in any case: either a specific example, or an explicit statement that either is acceptable (so MOS:STYLEVAR applies). The reason:
  1. MOS:CAPS and MOS:SECTIONCAPS already say "sentence case", and - in the absence of any other specific guideline - from that one can reasonably deduce that lowercase "1891–1940: early history" is both correct and mandatory. (The text following a colon is not a new sentence.)
  2. Multiple other style guides say "capitalise" and that is (apparently) common practice already on Wikipedia and elsewhere.

If we don't explicitly specify one, or explicitly state that either is acceptable, we run the risk of ongoing disagreement between those who assert that lower case is implicitly required by MOS:CAPS, MOS:SECTIONCAPS (and they could legitimately uncapitalise existing instances because STYLEVAR does not apply, because CAPS, SECTIONCAPS is clear), and those who assert that capitalisation is OK, or even necessary (because of common practice). Mitch Ames (talk) 06:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

STYLEVAR applies whenever there is no specific guidance; it would be neither practical nor desirable to list out every single case where it applies, even if occasionally we do so because some specific point has become particularly contentious. 74.73.224.126 (talk) 21:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

• Such a change would violate the sentence case we've had for two decades on WP. Tony (talk) 07:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Yes, it would change an old rule. But it would change an old rule that most people already don't follow. Wracking ^talk! 17:54, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
    • Most people don't follow any of the capitalization rules. They create new articles with title-case titles, and populate them with title-case headings, and capitalize what's important to them. Those things get noticed and fixed by gnomes like me. I hadn't done much on this particular pattern yet, but I might try taking it on (the trouble is that the thing after the colon in the heading has to be looked at carefully, case-by-case, to see if it's a proper name or not, so this will be slow). Dicklyon (talk) 23:24, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
      • I provided a source when I said "most people do X", so I'd ask that you do the same. :] Capitalizing after a colon while maintaining sentence case is not the same as unexperienced users improperly using title case. My guess would be that most gnomes don't notice this "issue" because they don't know the rule exists—and they don't know the rule exists because it's unintuitive (going against other prominent style guides). And if they do know the issue exists, I think they don't want to devote their time to its (as you noted) tedious mending. Wracking ^talk! 01:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
    • @SchreiberBike: for example fixed the ": Early years" to ": early years" at Charlie Chaplin in 2021. Nobody gave it a mention or touched it since. Dicklyon (talk) 23:44, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
• No The proposal is to mandate capitalisation after a colon in section headings. While some styles guides might advocate this, it is far from being consistent and one must also consider whether such guides would advocate sentence case or title case for section titles. MOS:COLON specifically deprecates capitalisation after a colon with few exceptions, of which this would not be such a case. Removing the guidance at MOS:SECTIONCAPS would create an inconsistency with the superior guidance and with the overarching principle at MOS:CAPS to avoid unnecessary caps. It is not shown that the proposal falls to a case of necessary caps. I am seeing no cogent (evidence based) arguments to change the existing guidance and sound reasons to retain. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
  • For clarification, the guidance I cited is specifically for sentence-case display text such as titles and headings, not body-text sentences. Wracking ^talk! 17:54, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
    • My first sentence makes it quite clear that I have understood the proposal. The rationale I give is that the proposal would be inconsistent with superior guidance, which applies generally and not specifically to just body text. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
      • Sorry for misunderstanding you, thanks for explaining. This was a point of confusion in the past. Wracking ^talk! 01:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• No, leave it – There are many different reasons for why people do not always follow the guidance, e.g. to use sentence case in headings, but mostly it's just that they aren't aware. Having this guidance as a reminder for a common error case is useful, and guides that who want to move toward consistency. It's not clear what kind of simple rule could replace what we have and expect more people to do the right thing; sentence case except after color is just arbitrary and awkward, and inconsistent with out general guidance of avoiding unnecessary capitalization. Dicklyon (talk) 23:20, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
• Comment - I'd recommend no changes be made in any pages, concerning this uppercase/lowercase topic. Until this RFC's decision is rendered. GoodDay (talk) 00:04, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  Was that comment in reaction to the edits I made shortly before? I fixed case after years with colons in 3 high-profile articles, not just because the guideline says to, but also to test the waters and see if any of the many editors of those articles notice or care; you can look at my contribs it you want to see which, but please do not revert to the un-preferred state. Dicklyon (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  I went ahead and fixed another dozen or more prominent articles with "Early years" after colon, including about a hundred other headings with caps after color, and also a few dozen with fully over-capitalizaed "Early Years" after color. Pretty much no reaction, except one editor who reverted a few and then read the guideline and self-reverted. This little test seems to make it clear that editors generally don't mind the WP style of avoiding unnecessary capitalization, and that they're often just not aware, and that moving in the direction suggested by guidelines is a good way to make things more consistent. Dicklyon (talk) 23:11, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Namdor67: OK, I finally provoked a notice and revert here, by a 5-weeks-new editor, with edit-summary argument Case is correct. Refer to any footballer with section titles, Messi, Ronaldo,Trent Alexander-Arnold and so on... Now, I'm pretty sure this is not really a styling question about footballers, nor about sports, but this kind of domain-specific over-capitalization is pretty well known to us, having been discussed extensively recently at WT:MOSCAPS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dicklyon (talk • contribs) 21:33, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

  I did another hundred or so, to see if there's any signficant objection to lowercase from watchers. I got just one more revert, from a one-edit IP. It seems clear that editors/readers are broadly OK with following the usual WP guidance of avoiding unnecessary capitalization, even though they often don't know and tend to cap as if these were subtitles. The guidance should help, at least for those who look for guidance. Dicklyon (talk) 22:19, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

• No change: continue in sentence case for consistency with treatment of colons within the text. Certes (talk) 19:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
• Remove guidance. As long as articles are internally consistent that's all that matters for something so completely trivial as this. Thryduulf (talk) 23:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
• No change. I've thought about this (see original WT:MOSCAPS thread), and the reason that some other style guides do this is they are treating each element as a "title" and giving it sentence case independently. WP even does this (usually) with sentence-case citations of articles with a title and a subtitle (|title=Mammal barbering: Proper procedure for shaving weasels). However, WP headings are headings, they are not article titles; "Colour: palettes and meaning" looks kind of ridiculous as "Colour: Palettes and meaning", and makes the reader wonder why "Palettes" is capitalized. "Is it a proper name? Is this some kind of emphasis?" Capitalizing after a colon is fussy as well as potentially confusing, half of editors won't do it, and changing to that style would involve a tremendous number of twiddly edits to probably a hundred thousand+ pages (WP:MEATBOT?). I agree with Dicklyon above that current advice is consistent with MoS's general avoidance of capitalization that is not necessary. I am quite certain we should keep a rule on this, as just the heat in this discussion makes it clear that certain individuals feel very strongly about this, which means people will editwar about it if there is no rule. MoS's two purposes are presenting consistent content to readers, and forestalling (or at least quickly ending) repetitive "style fights" among editors.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  STYLEVAR is a thing. We don't need MOSBLOAT; if people start to editwar, whichever style was used first controls. 74.73.224.126 (talk) 14:11, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  The very fact that this RfC is an ongoing heated fight about the matter (and not the first one) is a clear indication that we do need a specific rule on it, even if it's rather arbitrary..  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

• Remove guidance - No reason for having a guidance that everyone ignores and that goes against standard style guides. : Alexcs114 :) 16:12, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

  So the cited style guides that are like ours and suggest lowercase are not "standard"? Or you just didn't notice that such guidance, matching ours, is not uncommon in style guides? See refs and above.Dicklyon (talk) 21:35, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

• Allow both as acceptable MOS:STYLEVAR. Between removing the guidance and explicitly noting that both examples are valid, I agree with Mitch Ames that we should explicitly say so, given that it has been the subject of significant discussion. But 74.73.224.126 is of course also correct that removing the guidance would mean MOS:STYLEVAR applies no less. Adumbrativus (talk) 06:00, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• Keep or remove the guidance; don't reverse it. Is 1891–1940: early history a special case because early is the first word of the title, preceded only by numbers? Would we treat Invention: early history differently? Certes (talk) 10:01, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
• Don't specify: unneeded, finicky micromanaging from the Manual of Style is not really what we need. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 13:01, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
• Why? The purpose of the Manual of Style is to make sure that articles don't look too different from each other and to stop editors bickering one another. Some rules are best left for the editors to implicitly decide, and if they start arguing about choosing one over the other then my concern would be about the editors themselves. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 17:22, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
• Remove/don't specify. Clearly doesn't represent a consensus of editors, so we should not treat this as a guideline, but there's no need to explicitly provide the opposite right now. —siroχo 22:44, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
• Remove guidance 1891–1940: early history is not sentence case as the clause following the colon is a new sentence that should have the first letter capitalized. Keeping goes against prominent style guides as well as the common understanding of most Wikipedia editors. :3 F4U (they/it) 03:08, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

  What's after the colon is seldom a clause or a sentence; typically just a noun phrase. But even if it was a clause, we don't cap after a colon in sentences. Dicklyon (talk) 04:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

• Remove guidance and treat this like Oxford comma, en- versus em-dash, etc. As long as the article is internally consistent, that's all that matters. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 05:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
• Remove guidance and allow both. Both the status quo and the proposed change strike me as unnecessary. The capitalization of one letter is not going to make a difference in the vast majority of cases; e.g., both "1891–1940: early history" and "1891–1940: Early history" are semantically the same. I would be much more concerned about the lack of consistency within the same article. Epicgenius (talk) 18:00, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
• Remove guidance as textbook instruction creep. – Teratix ₵ 23:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• No change. As it is, there is both a general rule ("Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization") and the specific rule supporting the current guidance. Removing the specific rule is unlikely to end the myriad discussions about this issue. If advocates of capitalization after a colon would like to replace the current specific rule, I would much prefer that over just removing the rule. Something like "Capital and lowercase are both acceptable when following a colon in headings, as long as usage in the article is consistent" would be distasteful to me, but it would still save a lot of time. Either that, or the current version, would easily pass the bar of WP:NOTCREEP: "succinctly states community consensus regarding a significant point"—unless you take the view that capitalization issues are insignificant, in which case it'd be more transparent to just go with "abolish MOS:CAPS". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  Just to be clear (you're probably being facetious): if the community considered capitalization matters insiginificant, it would not collectively devote so much time and energy to debating them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I didn't even know this capitalization after a colon was even a possible style rule. (Maybe I missed that day in my college career?) Learned something new today. -- llywrch (talk) 20:35, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

References

RfC: Proposed addition to MOS:GENDERID - when to include deadnames

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the following text be added to MOS:GENDERID, inserted before the fourth paragraph? Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:01, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

For a deceased trans or non-binary person, their former name should only be included if the encyclopaedic significance of the deadname is established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources, or if they were notable prior to transitioning. Introduce the former name with either "born" or "formerly". For example:

• From Leelah Alcorn: Leelah Alcorn (November 15, 1997 – December 28, 2014) ...
  Note: While Alcorn's gender identity is discussed in significant detail in high quality sources about her, her former name is not.
• From Gloria Hemingway: Gloria Hemingway (born Gregory Hancock Hemingway, November 12, 1931 – October 1, 2001) ...
  Note: Hemingway's struggles with her gender dysphoria, and relationship with her gender identity, gender expression, and name are discussed in significant detail in sources about her life.
• From Danielle Bunten Berry: Danielle Bunten Berry (February 19, 1949 – July 3, 1998), formerly known as Dan Bunten, ...
  Note: Berry was notable prior to transitioning.

Notes

Background (GENDERID addition)

A recent RfC closed with the consensus that the community believes that, for the most part, the prior name [of a deceased trans or non-binary person] should not be used. However, the community fell short of finding a consensus for a specific phrasing based on the options presented. The purpose of this RfC is not to re-litigate the previous RfC, but to find consensus for a phrasing that reflects the closure of the previous RfC, namely that previous names of deceased trans or non-binary people should have some relatively high but not absolute barrier to their use. Loki (talk) 23:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC) based on wording proposed by Sideswipe9th below

Survey (GENDERID addition)

• Support as proposer While the previous RfC did not find consensus for the proposed options, it was remarked in the closing that it is clear that the actual consensus lies somewhere between option 2 and option 3, and that there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest. This proposal builds upon the wording of the closure, by setting out two inclusion criteria for when a former name of a deceased trans or non-binary person could be included in an article: that the deadname is of clear encyclopaedic significance based on in-depth coverage or discussion in high quality sources, or if the person was notable prior to transitioning. Explicit links are made to the WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:BESTSOURCES policy points, with the intentional effect of tying this guideline to both the What Wikipedia is not and Neutral point of view policies.
  With regards to the specifics of the closure, this sets the bar for inclusion at a level that is both lower than never (option 3) and higher than sometimes (option 2). It fulfils the consensus that articles should not routinely include the deadnames of deceased trans or non-binary individuals, while giving specific policy based guidance for what the inclusion criteria are. Finally it provides three examples of the applications of the inclusion criteria.
  While I had hoped that we would be able to find a consensus for inclusion through a discussion at WT:MOSBIO, it seems as though a clear consensus for or against this proposal is not emerging and an RfC is necessary. Finally, while the examples give what I believe to be clear applications of how those articles could meet the proposed criteria, they are not perfect. If better examples are found, either during the RfC or after, I don't think there should be any objection to substituting those in as they otherwise would not alter the scope of the proposal itself. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:01, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  I would also support Trystan's proposal below of replacing is established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources with is established through discussion of the name in high quality sources should there be a consensus for that as an alternative. I'd also have no objection to replacing or if they were notable prior to transitioning with or if they were notable under the former name, as that would more closely match the second paragraph of the existing GENDERID. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - WP:BLP adequately covers the issues of former names, quality of sources, privacy issues, and transition time of the deceased. Specifically, WP:BLPNAME for privacy of names and WP:BDP for the continuing privacy of recently deceased. I would support a proposal to specifically recommend extending the range of privacy concerns to the maximum recommended for the special case of transgender individuals, but not indefinitely. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:55, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  Extending BDP to its maximum of two years would still leave us in a situation where in the lack of other specific guidance and once that time period has elapsed, the deadnames of deceased trans or non-binary individuals who were not notable prior to transitioning could be routinely included. Such a situation would be against the clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest that was established just under a week ago. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  It's a blog (inherently non-RS), but this addresses the concerns many trans people have that their life choices will not be respected after their deaths. Two years is long enough to wear away the lipstick marking Wanda's name from the gravestone engraved "Alvin". – .Raven  .talk 23:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  This oppose should be given no weight by the closer, as it is explicitly at odds with the result of the above previously closed RfC. This discussion here is not to re-tread the arguments made there, but to determine the specific language in the MOS in order to enact the result of the RfC. Silverseren^C 23:58, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think you should focus on the merits of your argument and not turn to authoritarianism. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 03:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  WP:DISCARD. – .Raven  .talk 04:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Nothing there would justify throwing out my comment about BLP. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 04:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  What justifies "throwing out" the conclusion of the prior RfC less than a week ago? – "With around a hundred editors responding across these RFCs taking place at VPP, it is obvious that there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest." [emphasis in original] – .Raven  .talk 07:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  WP:DISCARD is an info page, not policy/guide, and even that does not say to throw out my comment. It says a closer may discard arguments that, flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. So, if anything, most of the comments on the last RFC should have been thrown out as personal opinion that flatly contradict established policy, but certainly not this one. Again, try making good arguments that are based on policy. You are proposing expanding an exception to WP:NOTCENSORED and acting like people who don't agree with you are violating policy, when they're not. You are WP:RGW, and I hope the closer has some sense. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  And WP:LISTEN is a behavioral guideline. Don't relitigate the closed RfC from just a week ago; respect that consensus. Here we are in fact following that closure's recommendation: "Where, exactly, the lines of encyclopedic interest and avoiding confusion are is not simple or clear and will likely need discussion...." That is the topic of this discussion. – .Raven  .talk 16:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  Cuñado you're repeating arguments you already made in the previous RfC on 7 May 2023 and 31 May 2023. By definition that is re-litigating the same points. If you have a specific reason for why this proposal doesn't fulfil the requirements of the existing consensus from a week ago, by all means make contributions on those points. But simply rehashing the same arguments you made previously is not helpful here. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support per proposer, although I would prefer "...notable under that name" rather than "...notable prior to transitioning" as transitioning is a process not a moment in time and at what point in the process people choose a new name varies; and also people can have multiple names - for example someone may have extremely private birth name, a different name under which they became notable but before they transitioned and a post-transition name under which they are notable, our article should include the latter two but not the first. However, while not perfect the proposal is better than the status quo. Thryduulf (talk) 23:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think that might've come from me. based on your reasoning, I agree that it's imperfect, but I think time has to be taken into account. When I was researching prior discussion in preparation for the last RFC, I saw a few arguments that, effectively, went like this: If a person became notable after transitioning but was widely noted or principally identified by their former name, the person was notable under that name.

  When I drafted the last RFC, I substituted that for "notable prior to transitioning" because I felt doing so was necessary to emphasize the difference between option 2 (which focused, in part, on how the media covered the person) and option 3 (which rejected such focus and said the deadnames of persons not notable prior to transitioning should not be used). To put it clearly: Option 3 was supposed to be a "never include" option, but I worried that, if it used the "notable under that name" language, it would be interpreted as a "sometimes" under the argument I mentioned above.

  Perhaps "notable prior to discarding that name" would have been the better choice?--Jerome Frank Disciple 17:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that we should differentiate between the subject's use of their birth name and other sources use of it. I think that's a good option, but I would have a preference for something like "notable prior to adopting their new name" as I think it's possible people will say you need to find a reliable source to support that they are no longer going by their birth name in addition to a reliable source supporting the use of their new name. of course, the implication when someone starts using a new name is that they are no longer using their old name, but I'd like to make it as unambiguous as possible. Tekrmn (talk) 16:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  That works for me!--Jerome Frank Disciple 17:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  If the rest of this proposal finds consensus, with one exception I don't think there'd be much issue swapping to "notable under that name", as it would mirror the existing language already present in GENDERID's third paragraph. I would be a little concerned that "notable under that name" would be a backdoor for a "name is verifiable from an obituary, so we must include" type argument that was already rejected by the previous RfC. Maybe that could be addressed in the footnote though with a small addition to the first sentence that verifiability alone is not enough for inclusion?

  I do think Tekrmn's "notable prior to adopting their new name" is maybe a better way to phrase this concept. It raises the barrier above mere verifiability, and puts it in line with the practice of GENDERID's third paragraph, if not the letter of it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support, ideally but not necessarily with Thryduulf's proposed amendment, as the most accurate and precisely worded version of the consensus from the previous three RFCs that anyone's proposed so far. (As a side note, I'd support pinging everyone who voted in that RFC, since this RFC is a clear follow-up to that one.) Loki (talk) 23:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  Just want to note that I'd also support Trystan's proposed alternate wording. Loki (talk) 20:45, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The addition, and particularly the established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources wording, will just lead to tendentious wikilawyering and unnecessary WP:CREEP. Under this proposal, the notable deadname of the Nashville school shooter would've been excluded from the article from the very beginning, and editors who try to add the name would've been reverted and pointed to this guideline in the MOS. If an overwhelming number of reliable sources use and report the deceased shooter's birth/deadname, it shouldn't take an uphill battle to include that name in the article. Some1 (talk) 00:53, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  The deadname of the shooters was discussed in high quality sources, so if we adopted this change to the MOS nothing about that article would change. I don't think that would have been a lengthy discussion either, unlike the incredibly lengthy discussions that were had about not using his deadname to refer to him throughout the article, not misgendering him throughout the article, where to include his deadname, etc, which included a lot of reversions in all directions, and has landed us with an article that still overemphasizes his birth name and his transness in ways that are out of line with the MOS. I do not think including deadnames where relevant is ever going to be an uphill battle the way excluding them where they aren't relevant is. Tekrmn (talk) 16:39, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  I've only checked twenty of the sources in that article so I may have missed something, but I'm not seeing any in-depth analysis or discussion of the name; the name is mentioned in every article, but a mention doesn't meet that standard. This is where my concern about the wording comes from; it is overly restrictive and per the examples given doesn't appear to align with the intent. BilledMammal (talk) 16:52, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not attached to the wording in this proposal but I do think that if you take into account the context of the existing MOS this isn't really a concern. the MOS currently says "Where a person's gender may come as a surprise, explain it on first occurrence, without overemphasis." the fact that almost all of the reporting on the shooter referred to him by his deadname indicates that the inclusion of his deadname is necessary. I'm not going to go dig up the sources, but we also would not have sources saying he went by Aiden if we didn't have sources discussing his name change.

  to some extent, as long as we allow for the inclusion of deadnames in a way that allows for /any/ interpretation, the deadname will almost certainly be included in ways that are gratuitous for the article in question, so to me it does make sense to err on the side of more restricting. Tekrmn (talk) 19:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  the fact that almost all of the reporting on the shooter referred to him by his deadname indicates that the inclusion of his deadname is necessary - I agree. The issue is that we would be forbidden from doing so by this policy, as to the best of my knowledge there are no sources providing in-depth analysis or discussion of the name, and I would be very surprised if such sources did exist. BilledMammal (talk) 19:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Aiden Hale is somewhat of an unusual case. Had he survived, we would have found ourselves in the situation where the second paragraph of GENDERID would have unambiguously applied. At the time Hale started shooting, he was using the name Aiden, and regardless of whatever sourcing existed we would have used only that name in our article per the existing guideline.

  However that is not the circumstances we find ourselves in. I've explained my thinking in more detail in this reply at WT:MOSBIO, but in short I believe that the circumstances surrounding the publication and use of Hale's former name is one that is best handled through an application of the WP:IAR policy. The American legal maxim of hard cases make bad law applies here, as the circumstances involved make this a very hard case to handle with any degree of respect and care. Trying to address the specificities of Hale's case in this guideline would necessitate us setting the bar significantly lower than the consensus afforded by the previous RfC, and would be too permissive a barrier for inclusion for the vast majority of uncontroversial articles. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Sideswipe9th, LokiTheLiar, and -sche: If this was the only exception I would agree with you that it could be handled by IAR, but it isn't. So far in this discussion two examples have been provided where everyone agrees the former name should be included - Aidan Hall and Gloria Hemingway - but in both of these examples it appears that the proposed policy would prevent us from including them.

  In fact, I am struggling to think of circumstances where it would permit us to include the name; I'm not even convinced that it would permit us to include Jemima Wilkinson at Public Universal Friend, as while her preferred name has recieved such analysis I have been unable to find any for her former name. As written, the proposal is far too restrictive; requiring occasional exceptions is acceptable, but requiring them most or all of the time is not. BilledMammal (talk) 14:17, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal: Not saying I agree with you, but if, as you say, the barrier for inclusion is set too high, where then would you set it? Would Trystan's proposed amendment of is established through discussion of the name in high quality sources be suitable for you?

  Please bear in mind that, per the previous RfC the level has to be set high to account for there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest. Any barrier that would allow the inclusion of Hale's former name outside of IAR would be too low, as it would require a straight "majority of sources", which has explicitly been rejected per the existing consensus. So where exactly would you set the barrier? Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  Replies moved to #Discussion (alternatives) BilledMammal (talk) 17:20, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  (e/c with Sideswipe9th, who I see has said much the same thing as this:) I don't know that argument-by-extreme-edge-case is persuasive; we're also technically forbidden by the same Manual of Style from saying Mein Kampf has "racist" content or that Rocky Suhayda is a "neo-Nazi", but as other editors argued when I raised that issue, and as I would say here, trying to base policies and guidelines on the most exceptional "extreme cases make[s] bad policy". In the same way we've managed, despite the zealous enforcement of MOS:WTW, to still say Mein Kampf has racist content and Suhayda is a neo-Nazi, I trust our ability to treat extremely exceptional cases in exceptional ways here, too; if we don't need to rewrite policy to explicitly caveat "you can't say someone is a neo-Nazi unless they're the leader of the Nazi Party", we don't need to spell out "don't use a deadname that hasn't been discussed in depth unless the person only transitioned unbeknownst to most people shortly before committing a crime and then dying, leading most sources to stick with the only name they were aware of"; the exceptional extreme cases are what IAR is for. -sche (talk) 20:33, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed with both of these replies. Aiden/Audrey Hale is the epitome of "hard cases make bad law". What harder case could there be than someone for whom even the basic fact of whether they meant to transition at all is ambiguous, who is notable for the same event in which they died making their wishes fundamentally unknowable, where that event is a mass murder they committed, and who was simultaneously referred to primarily by their legal name but whose transition was also widely reported?

  We are probably never going to get a case that ambiguous and so we really shouldn't design policy to handle it cleanly. Cases like that are the whole point of WP:IAR. Sometimes, even after you design a policy that handles 99% of cases cleanly, you get a 1%er. Perfect policy is impossible and attempting it is an enemy of good policy. Loki (talk) 00:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support seems a very reasonable standard that only allows using the name when it is of encyclopedic interest. Definitely prefer "notable under that name" rather than "prior to transitioning", which matches the wording in the living section of MOS:GENDERID. Galobtter (talk) 05:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Some1. Apart from introducing special privileges for sourcing to a single group, this also deliberately introduces further argument points for reliable sourcing. "High quality" is another subjective determination, let alone the requirement of 'in depth analysis and discussion'. The simple and relatively common example of someone's published work under their prior name would fail those, as sources rarely do that level of discussion/analysis on specifically their name. It's setting the inclusion criteria to a level that will be functionally unachievable, on the basis of an ideological starting point rather than the goal of a comprehensive encyclopedic article. If the goal is to prevent their prior name ever being used, the wording above is certainly suffices, if the goal is to provide a MOS guideline on the appropriate context? It fails miserably. The MOS is a style guideline, it is subservient to our actual policies. If we start including proscriptive content rules that directly come into conflict with policy, it will be ignored. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:13, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "special privileges for [...] a single group" – Oh, where have I seen/heard that phrasing before? – .Raven  .talk 07:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  You could always say what you actually mean. Or perhaps you can't because they would be unsupported allegations which our editing rules prohibit, but sadly do not explicitly disallow cowardly snide insinuations. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Agreeing with your criticism of the wording, but the RGW discussion was already done in the original RfC and the consensus was that a special rule is needed. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 09:27, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's a lot of extra policy wording for what is essentially a restatement of WP:WEIGHT. We have determined there is a consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest, and so inclusion of the former name must be justified by analysing and weighing sources. This is surely business as usual for all content? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 07:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Having read the other responses, I should clarify two points:

  1) I concur with the in-depth analysis or discussion bar being inappropriate. You could interpret it strictly, in which case it's too high a bar, or you could interpret it broadly, in which case it's no different to the normal process of analysing and weighing sources.

  2) On the question of whether the scope of this RfC should be restricted to finding a result between Option 2 and 3... I can see quite a few people voting in this RfC that didn't vote in the previous one, so although it seems implausible that consensus can change in a matter of weeks, it's quite plausible that consensus can change when the voters are different. If this RfC attracts a substantially larger number of voters than the previous RfC, one could even argue that it has the power to overturn the previous consensus completely. A ratchet effect is probably not healthy. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 10:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  In theory you're absolutely right, however in practice it is very difficult to reach that consensus about this on any given article. having this guideline that specifically refers to name changes will save a lot of time on those conversations. this change is being proposed because a lot of editors agree that this is a problem, so I don't think it's as redundant as it may seem. I also don't think the fact that it seems redundant is a great reason to oppose it. we have existing policies and guidelines that restate the same concepts in different contexts for similar reasons, I am not privy to the exact reasons why that is the case for other things, but I think it's generally good practice to recognize that redundancies in policy and guidelines were put there as a result of a lot of work for specific reasons. Tekrmn (talk) 19:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support The intent is to align Wikipedia's editorial policy with the best practices which the organized LGBT+ community recommends. Wikipedia's style guide should bend, comply, and conform to the wishes of communities who assert wishes for how they want to be represented. There is still debate among LGBT+ commentators about how to do this, and we can tweak the wording, but this proposal is another improvement. Bluerasberry (talk) 11:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Wikipedia's style guide should bend, comply, and conform to the wishes of communities who assert wishes for how they want to be represented. — No. Following the broad principles of:

  WP:NOTCENSORED, whereby we do not remove information about an organizations (group of people, communities) just because that group does not like it

  MOS:ISLAM, whereby we don't confirm to Islam's rules about using "PBUH" and no images

  ASFAQ 8, ASFAQ 14, whereby Wikipedia is not obliged to remove article contents that the article's subject does not like

  We should not "bend, comply, and conform to the wishes of" the people we are writing about, just because they don't like what we said. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  This issue affects more than "a community": more broadly, does Wikipedia not abide by name changes? Then we treat others worse than we treat ourselves. (See also.) – .Raven  .talk 16:00, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  does Wikipedia not abide by name changes? — Which part of "name change" says that others may never mention the original name?

  Then we treat others worse than we treat ourselves — WP:RENAME explicitly says "Existing ... mentions of the old username in discussions are not affected by a rename. Renames appear in the user rename log ... This is done in the interest of transparency." So RENAME does not deny or hide the past, nor should an encyclopedia article on a person who changed their name. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Renames are logged but are only searchable by the original name. That is, you don't necessarily know an account has been renamed unless you know what the old name was, and global rename requests are not visible to non-administrators. The old system was fairly transparent but the new one, not so much. —Rutebega (talk) 05:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  NOTCENSORED says content will be removed it it is judged to violate wikipedia policies, especially BLP. NOTCENSORED isn’t about disregarding the wishes (and safety) of individuals, it’s about not allowing one social norm to take precedence over a conflicting social norm, because that would be in violation of NPOV, or over the values of wikipedia. that’s why we do not adhere to Islam’s rules- it isn’t neutral to praise one religion's deity on every mention, but that’s a very different situation than using a person's preferred name which is a matter of a lot more than censorship and is on an individual level, which is something NOTCENSORED explicitly prioritizes via BLP. this includes the privacy of names, which GENDERID states is even a lesser concern to protecting deadnames. Tekrmn (talk) 20:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  NOTCENSORED says content will be removed it it is judged to violate wikipedia policies, especially BLP. — But mentioning a person's prior name does not violate policies. And for the purpose of this RFC, BLP is irrelevant because the change is to a guideline about deceased people (and makes no mention of "recent"). Mitch Ames (talk) 00:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  BLP has a lot to say about the privacy of names, and as I said in my above comment the existing MOS states that the concern of deadnames is greater than the concerns in BLP privacy of names. from my perspective this means, among many other things, that using someone's deadname does not inherently become appropriate just because they've died. there was a vague consensus on that in the last RFC as well, which is how we got this proposal in the first place. Tekrmn (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  NOTCENSORED is still subservient to WP:NOTEVERYTHING, and we already have a clear consensus that the former names of deceased trans and non-binary people are not automatically of encyclopaedic interest, and that we should only include them when they are of encyclopaedic interest or necessary to avoid confusion. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  NOTCENSORED is still subservient to WP:NOTEVERYTHING — both are policies, neither is "subservient" to the other. But my original point - disputing Bluerasberry's assertion that "Wikipedia ... should bend, comply, and conform to the wishes of [the article subjects]" - stands. NOTCENSORED explicitly contradicts Bluerasberry's assertion, while NOTEVERYTHING does not explicitly cover that assertion either way. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  NOTCENSORED explicitly states that it does not apply to anything that is against wikipedia policies. Tekrmn (talk) 02:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  I second Mitch Ames that Wikipedia shouldn't "bend, comply, and conform to the wishes of communities who assert wishes for how they want to be represented" irrespective of the community in question. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 13:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'll third that notion. Neutrality demands we follow our sources, not the wishes of the subjects (or representative groups of our subjects) of our articles. —Locke Cole • t • c 18:00, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support: While I have some concerns about the precise wording here (though I couldn't come up with an alternative!), I think this proposal is both (1) superior to the status quo and (2) a reasonable extension of the closer's findings as to the last RFC.--Jerome Frank Disciple 11:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support I agree this is a reasonable proposal and works well with the close of the last RFC. Nemov (talk) 14:14, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think "in-depth analysis and discussion" is too high a bar, and I don't know what "analysis" of a name would look like. I could support "is established through discussion of the name in high quality sources", which is already a much higher standard for inclusion of a former name than the default of mere verifiability. If a name is not just given but discussed in the best available sources, it would also be discussed in an article reflective of those sources, and a name discussed in the article is clearly of encyclopedic significance.--Trystan (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support This is a reasonable proposal and provides better guidance to editors. I could also support the language Trystan suggests above - but in any event, the proposal is better than the status quo. Further refinements are possible in the future. Enos733 (talk) 15:07, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• Why do we need a separate rule about this?—S Marshall T/C 17:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  We have ~2700 words on which small horizontal line to use despite no readers caring or being able to tell the difference. ^{spoiler: it's probably not the one on your keyboard, for some reason} This doesn't seem like a wild amount of clarification. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  As general info, users of Firefox/Thunderbird may find AddAccent helpful, as it makes very many more characters quickly available via keyboard. I can type hyphen followed by one backslash (\) to get ndash (–); followed by a second backslash to get mdash (—); more backslashes give me super- and subscript characters (⁻₋). – .Raven  .talk 05:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose more updates right now, seems to be getting in to FLOG territory after just running an RFC on this for a month. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:21, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  In fairness, as Sideswipe9th noted: the closer of the last RFC suggested this route. In the prior RFC, as to whether Wikipedia articles should include the deadnames of deceased persons who were not notable prior to transitioning, there were multiple options presented. Option 1 said "always". Option 2 effectively said "sometimes", suggesting WP:PUA (and consideration of a majority of reliable sources) as providing the appropriate guidance. And Option 3 said "never". (Option 4 said "no change".) As the closer said: "[I]t is clear that the actual consensus lies somewhere between option 2 and option 3. ... I suggest that some language taking into account the responses and concerns be workshopped, and possibly another RFC be held if the language doesn't get consensus through discussion."--Jerome Frank Disciple 17:37, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Sure they can suggest it, but the reason it was able to be suggested was because no consensus emerged. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  I mean I don't think that's at all consistent with "the actual consensus lies somewhere between option 2 and option 3", but my larger point is that, regardless, it's hardly FLOGGING in light of that finding.--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:01, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  To add to this, back in August 2021 there was a similar RfC on the inclusion of former names of deceased trans and non-binary people, who were not notable under that former name. Like the RfC that concluded a week ago, there was a split consensus and a recommendation from the closers that a subsequent RfC was held on a narrow subset of the original question. Neither that RfC, nor any other discussion on that specific point was ever held.

  The reason why I feel this implementation RfC is necessary, is because I don't want a repeat of the August 2021 situation, where there is a clear consensus for change with the recommendation of a subsequent RfC that is ultimately never held. With all due respect to your point on FLOG, because this is an RfC for a proposal that implements the existing consensus, and is not framed in a manner that it re-litigates the pre-existing consensus, this is not the case of myself or others flogging a dead horse. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Honestly, I think the RFC could be framed in a way that makes it clearer that it implements an existing consensus, seeing as we appear to be getting several questions on that point. Loki (talk) 18:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Would a background section do? (I think Sides mostly captures that background with her !vote, but maybe people are glossing over that)--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  If you think a brief note that this is an implementation RfC of an already existing consensus, and not one that's trying to re-litigate that consensus would be helpful, then feel free to add it above the survey section. Not sure if that'd be a background section or just a note or something though. On the whole though I don't think it needs as much detail as the background section in the last RfC. A couple of sentences to a paragraph at the most would suffice. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Copying some comments from WT:MOSBIO, where, as with the previous RfC on this, agreement wasn't reached on what to ask. "there is a clear consensus that the deadnames of trans and non-binary individuals are not automatically of encyclopaedic interest"... a question about whether birth names or former names are of encyclopedic interest wasn't asked in the RfC referenced, so this assertion (albeit it is in the close) is questionable, making it not a sound basis for significant change in a contentious area. As with others, I struggle to understand what "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name" would be, and see the same problames as Some1 and Only in death mention. And why "high quality sources" instead of standard "reliable sources"? That slants things to academic discourse, where analysing a person's names, to the best of my knowledge, is not common. As such, the proposal is much too restrictive, particularly when we already have a policy stating that verifiability does not guarantee inclusion and another policy against censorship. EddieHugh (talk) 19:27, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  As I noted there, I'd again note here that merely noting "verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" fails to reflect the closer's finding that consensus was between option 2 and option 3, described above.--Jerome Frank Disciple 19:30, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  so this assertion (albeit it is in the close) is questionable, making it not a sound basis for significant change in a contentious area If you wish to make a challenge to the closure, then I'd suggest following the guidance at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Unless and until there is a successful challenge that overturns the closure of the last RfC, either in whole or in part, then that is the determination of the consensus. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  The close stated, in bold, which I've removed: "there is no consensus to change the current wording of MOS:GENDERID". I don't challenge that. It accurately addressed the question asked. But basing what is intended to be new wording on a conclusion about a question that was not asked is another matter. EddieHugh (talk) 19:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  It also said in bold (I've also removed) there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. and there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest. If you wish to challenge that part of the closure, then I defer back to the advice at CLOSECHALLENGE. But until there is a successful challenge to it, that part of the closure is every bit as valid as the part you've quoted. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:52, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  I have nothing to add to my previous comment, except that, as you know, I have had sufficient drama from this topic to not seek more. EddieHugh (talk) 20:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support This wording seems to support current best practices on referring to trans and non-binary people, as I understand them. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support Per the close of the previous RfC, this wording seems to properly explain a position between options 2 and 3, as stated as the consensus result from said RfC. I hope the closer here will discard any arguments trying to re-litigate the previous RfC, which is not what this discussion is about whatsoever. Silverseren^C 22:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose in this form, per Some1. There's the germ of a good idea in here, but it needs considerable further wordsmithing before it's guideline-worthy. WP:Writing policy is hard.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support per my comments above. Points between prior RfC's options 2 & 3 in a manner compatible with the points made there, and with BLP's goals. A short simple "*never* mention deadname" guideline would stumble on exactly the situations where that had already been notable; this longer guideline allows navigating such situations. I would hope that BDP eventually follows the same rule, beyond any time cutoff (such as 2 years), but I think that will need a separate discussion. – .Raven  .talk 05:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support As a consequence of the consensus established by the previous RFC. I'm not that fussed over the exact wording here, this is pretty much what we concluded consensus was at during the previous RFC. --Licks-rocks (talk) 09:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - We already have multiple policies covering names and privacy (WP:BLPPRIVACY, WP:BLPNAME), the encyclopedic- or not value of facts (WP:NOTEVERYTHING), and a specific policy for the recently dead (WP:BDP). Adding more rules is unnecessary instruction creep. I don't see why we should treat a dead person any differently just because they were trans. In any case, the wording "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name" is problematic. What constitutes "in-depth analysis or discussion"? How much analysis of a person's name is required? Why does a simple fact need to be analysed or discussed to be deemed notable? We don't require "in-depth analysis or discussion" of other facts. If reliable sources think it important enough to simply state the fact (of a person's former name) - without needing to "analyse" it - then we should also treat the fact as notable. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:06, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
• Weak oppose … it’s not the name that needs to be discussed and analyzed, but the subject’s pre-transition life while he/she used that name. Blueboar (talk) 13:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  a person's pretransition life can easily be discussed without mentioning their deadname. Tekrmn (talk) 20:09, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  This becomes a WP:V issue if the sources cited only use the deadname, which is almost certain to be the case if they were published pre-transition. At least a footnote mentioning this usage needs to be included to avoid rendering such sources unreadable. small jars tc 17:01, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  If sources using the deadname were published pre-transition, then the subject was notable pre-transition. We already say that we can mention the deadnames of people who are notable pre-transition. This proposal would not affect that. Blueboar (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  I see that I have misread the proposed policy change. I thought it was to remove all deadnames where the deadname itself is not notable. small jars tc 21:57, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  Sources don't have to contribute to notability to be used in an article. Tons of primary, non-independent, or non-SIGCOV sources could exist on someone pre-transition. And what happens if there's only one piece of IRS SIGCOV pre-transition and one post-transition? Neither alone would be sufficient for notability, and yet we would still be asking for the deadname itself to have just as much coverage as the subject, or even more if the subject's notability is derived through NBASIC. JoelleJay (talk) 23:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  that may be true, but there are many more instances where a source written after someone's transition will discuss their pre-transition life and in those cases there's usually no reason to include their deadname, even if it is included in the source. WP:V is far from the only criterion used to decide what information can be included in an article. Tekrmn (talk) 17:15, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  But per WP:NNC notability isn't one of those criteria. Huggums537 (talk) 05:11, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  notability absolutely is one of those criteria as it relates to deadnames for living trans people, and it can be one of those criteria for dead trans people if we codify that. additionally, the only reason this proposal exists is because WP:DUE, which would be one of the criteria I was referring to, is being misconstrued to allow for the inclusion of deadnames where there is no reason to do so. Tekrmn (talk) 06:30, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  If notability is codified as one of those criteria, then it will have been codified in direct conflict with the notability guidance itself. Huggums537 (talk) 08:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC) Updated on 12:54, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  Listen, if you insist on interpreting WP:NNC this way we can absolutely run an RFC about it.

  It matters enough to, because your interpretation is currently in direct conflict with the plain wording of MOS:GENDERID (and I believe several other policies and guidelines). If WP:NNC doesn't just mean that notability is not required for article content, but that no other policy regarding content can ever incorporate the concept of notability, we'd be in serious trouble here. Loki (talk) 01:23, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Well, we are in serious trouble here. Why do you think I keep harping about it everywhere I get a chance to? Think very carefully about what you just said. If WP:NNC doesn't just mean that notability is not required for article content, but that no other policy regarding content can ever incorporate the concept of notability, we'd be in serious trouble here. Your interpretation is the wrong one here. If you had seen this post regarding the correct interpretation of NNC, then you would realize the guidance is clearly using language that suggests notability is not allowed as a criteria rather than simply "not being required". The nutshell says, "does not determine article content", and then even further restricts usage by going on to say, " but only whether the topic may have its own article.". Then the lede just comes right out and says, "They do not limit the content of an article or list...", and finally NNC itself plainly says, " The notability guideline does not apply to the contents of articles." So, I ask you to think again about what you just said. If NNC means that notability does not determine, limit, or apply to article contents, but only whether a topic may have its own article, then how in the world does anyone justify using notability to incorporate into another policy as a criteria for article contents? I don't think, "um I was just following other editors because I thought it was the right thing, and I didn't know any better" or, "I saw some really experienced editors talk about notability inside contents so I thought it was normal" counts as a good justifications. It was an editor who was much more experienced than me who first made me aware that not everyone here is fully aware of everything just because they have a lot of experience, and also made me aware that there is a problem with a lot of misinformation being spread throughout Wikipedia as well. Huggums537 (talk) 09:16, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  everyone understands your point. almost nobody here agrees with you that WP:N implies that you can't use notability as a criteria for content within other policy and guidelines just because WP:N as a standalone guideline does not apply to content. you yourself quoted "The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles," not "notability as a broad concept cannot be used to determine the content of articles, even through other guidelines or policies." you've made the same point many times here with no traction, so maybe it's time to stop saying the same thing over and over. Tekrmn (talk) 15:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  So then I guess according to your logic any p&g that says something "does not apply" doesn't mean jack crap because some "broad concept" could still be used in other guidance to simply render it null and void? So, according to you where the WP:BLPBALANCE policy says Eventualism "does not apply" to biographies doesn't mean we can't just simply make other new policies based on the "broad concept" of eventualism or some other "broad concept" like Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a work in progress and just apply that "broad concept" to the biographies as a way to get around the policy? Do you not understand how absurdly ridiculous that sounds, or that once something has been codified in guidance it is the consensus, and not what a small group of editors thinks is popular in some stupid little RfC? Some smartasses might think it's a slick way to get around codified guidance, but it is pretty easy to see through. This is exactly the reason why WP:POLICYFORK exists. Huggums537 (talk) 17:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC) Updated on 15:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC) per Special:Diff/1162351210

  firstly, these two comments are not even a remotely appropriate way to communicate with other editors. secondly, the clear difference between the example of WP:N and WP:BLPBALANCE is that WP:N says that the WP:N guideline does not apply to content, while WP:BLPBALANCE says that the idea expressed in eventualism don't apply to BLPs. in addition, WP:BLPBALANCE is stating that BLP is an exception to something that is otherwise common practice in order to protect the subjects of BLPs, which is pretty damn similar to using the concept of notability to protect the subject of BLPs. so no, the idea of eventualism cannot be applied to BLPs through policies or guidelines. since WP:N states explicitly that WP:N as a guideline isn't to be applied to content there is no policy fork in creating a guideline separate from WP:N that uses the same criteria for content. Tekrmn (talk) 17:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  to clarify, obviously we cannot create a guideline that says notability applies to all content, that would be in direct conflict with WP:N and be a genuine policy fork, but using notability to apply to a pre-transition name is the best criterium we have, as we are essentially deciding whether the person warrants a wikipedia article under that name by including it in their article. this is very much in line with the ideas expressed in WP:N and is far from the only place where a policy or guideline has an isolated exception Tekrmn (talk) 18:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  ...as we are essentially deciding whether the person warrants a wikipedia article under that name by including it in their article. This demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of how the notability guideline operates. We merge notable subjects/articles into other larger articles all the time, but that doesn't mean any bit of the new content in the larger article is allowed to be governed by notability criteria just because the former article was notable. In other words, former notability of any bit of content doesn't justify the use of notability as criteria in a current article. Huggums537 (talk) 07:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  you have yet to have a cogent argument about your point or the points of people with opposing views here or elsewhere on this talk page, so you telling me I have a severe lack of understanding with nothing to back it up is not compelling. yes, this would not be allowed solely not under WP:N, which is why we have WP:GENDERID for this specific circumstance. Tekrmn (talk) 15:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  I said on your talk page I wasn't going to discuss this further, but I have a cogent argument to make about my point, and that is former notability has never been a determining factor for inclusion of content within an article until the fairly recent MOS:GENDERID insubordinate WP:POLICYFORK of the longstanding notability guidance. If former notability were ever a determining factor of what goes into articles, then we would never be able to add one single word, fact, or sentence to any article without first asking ourselves if that word, fact, or sentence is worthy of having its own article to begin with. It is actually the most incredibly senseless criteria for content within articles that has been thought of in recent years which you say is, "the best criterium we have". Huggums537 (talk) 05:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  In this case it is really the notability of the subject under the previous name that's at issue, and I think phrasing it like that here might clarify at least the nature of the measure. If the person wasn't notable while under that name, we wouldn't have had (probably didn't have) an article covering them, at all. MOS:GENDERID's current 2nd paragraph puts it just that way for the living:
  If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name. [emphasis added]
  Present proposal appears to apply the same rule to the dead.

  To simply remove the present version of MOS:GENDERID is not part of this RfC's topic, but another RfC could be opened for that, if you still feel strongly about it after this RfC closes (either way). – .Raven  .talk 06:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  In this case it is really the notability of the subject under the previous name that's at issue, and I think phrasing it like that here might clarify at least the nature of the measure. You don't seem to understand that on Wikipedia, the name of the article is directly linked to the subject in such a way that for all practical purposes makes them the same thing when measuring notability, and trying to stress with italics and bolding that there is somehow a difference between any given subject, and the name of the article for that subject is just circular logic. In other words, if you are talking about the former notability of the subject, you are really also talking about the former notability of the name as JoelleJay has pointed out before. But, truthfully, we could slice this pie any way you want to because it would not matter if the subject and the name were somehow separated out, or linked together because they would each be ruled out as invalid "former notability" or even "current notability" criteria per WP:NNC so present, past, living, dead, single, or together slices of this designated pie don't amount to a hill of beans. Someone might argue that if you put the pie into a blender, then maybe it isn't a pie anymore, but the fact is that NNC is far from being in a blender, and there are only so many ways you will be able to slice this pie before you realize this is the pie you have. Also, I'm perfectly allowed to talk about whatever flaws I think MOS:GENDERID has which preceded this RfC as a pre-curser to initiating such a horrible RfC to begin with. So, please stop propagating this false idea that someone must open a new RfC to express these kind of views because they don't. It amounts to nothing more than attempted censorship, and people who have actual arguments don't resort to such barbaric tactics. Huggums537 (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  at least three editors have told you drop this. we're not here to discuss your perceived issue with the current MOS, we're here to discuss the current proposal. I have to agree with JFD that you're bludgeoning. Tekrmn (talk) 15:00, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  And many more editors have expressed concerns over the attempted censorship of comments here because they don't align directly with the question as posed. While there may be bludgeoning issues, I think there's also some very annoying WP:IDHT issues here as well. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  those concerns seem to be in relation to the discussion of the last RFC, and I do agree that there are things outside the direct realm of this proposal that are relevant to discuss here, however a vendetta against the current MOS which would not be impacted by this proposal is not one of those things, especially when it is being bludgeoned. while I do agree that IDHT is becoming relevant to this RFC, if you're suggesting that the editors who disagree that the MOS is a policy fork are engaging in IDHT behavior I would suggest you re-read IDHT. Tekrmn (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  Also, just because mistakes exist in other guidance that have not yet been corrected is not a good argument. Huggums537 (talk) 07:31, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  so you're saying that my analysis of the example you asked for my opinion on is invalid because it doesn't refer to WP:N? well you have yet to actually acknowledge or respond to any of my other points anyway, so I'm done having this conversation. Tekrmn (talk) 15:58, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  In other words, if we have to spell it out for you that "does not apply" also means that you are not to do it even through making other guidelines or policies, then we might have a WP:CIR issue with you. Huggums537 (talk) 17:50, 27 June 2023 (UTC) Updated on 15:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC) per Special:Diff/1162351210

  You're essentially the only person with the interpretation of NNC you're promoting. The vast majority of editors have said they disagree with you and explained why—that fact that you disagree with them is of no moment. It's dramatically inappropriate to invoke CIR in that context. You said to me that you've made this your personal crusade since, years ago, an editor reverted an addition of content you made. If you cannot advance your cause reasonably—without personal attacks and without bludgeoning—you need to let it go.--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:17, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  *shrug* I agree with Huggums537. I'm curious who you're speaking for when you claim the vast majority of editors have said they disagree with you though. —Locke Cole • t • c 21:46, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Locke, it doesn't greatly surprise me that you might have two especially unique views of WP policy—others have already (very repeatedly) discussed your interpretation of NPOV/DUE as to trans persons. As to your inquiry, see here, as just one example (as one editor said to another, "You're now the fifth experienced editor to tell [Huggums537] there's no dilemma/conflict. This is bordering WP:IDHT.") This all said, regardless of whether 1 or 2 or even 30% of Wikipedia users agree with Huggums, the CIR invocation (not to mention the other personal attacks) was clearly unwarranted.--Jerome Frank Disciple 22:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  others have already (very repeatedly) discussed your interpretation of NPOV/DUE as to trans persons People stating the wrong thing repeatedly doesn't suddenly make their position correct. As to your inquiry And you go on to link to a discussion forcibly closed in two days, not the slam dunk you're professing exists... —Locke Cole • t • c 05:20, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  "People stating the wrong thing repeatedly doesn't suddenly make their position correct."

  It's funny, people who push FRINGE theories in Wikipedia article often say the same thing.--Jerome Frank Disciple 14:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  Jerome, Please read my comments more carefully. I never invoked CIR on anyone. I specifically said someone "might" invoke CIR. Also, please stop bringing up off-topic WP:Local consensus views from a year ago to an insubordinate video game project who bullied me out of a conversation that was never allowed to get any broader community consensus. Maybe if you had an actual RfC to show with some real community consensus, then it might be different, but blasting out this unimportant discussion from a year ago as if it is some kind of evidence of consensus is ridiculous. Exactly two people have disagreed with me in the present topic, and I have already proven to you that JoelleJay here and SmcCandlish here have made comments that agree with me so including Locke saying they agree, the majority actually agrees with me in this topic. Those same bully tactics that worked at the insubordinate video game project have much less effect in a much larger broad community consensus forum like this one, which is why they blocked me from from having that RfC in the first place. I've already explained to you nicely that I'm a little bit weirded out by this blasting out. So, now I'm asking you kindly to please stop. I'm perfectly allowed to have my own opinions about Wikipidia policies, and if you don't stop blasting out my opinions in reference to them as "personal crusades", then I will have to take you to ANI for WP:Casting aspersions, where you could be blocked, and I want to avoid that because I really do detest ANI and/or getting other editors blocked. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 06:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  The "might" invocation makes no difference. User:Bob doesn't avoid WP:NPA by saying User:Jill "might be a jackass".

  The fact that you've never gotten close to a consensus (and, in fact, on at least one occasion, were unanimously opposed) to support your read doesn't actually matter here. You are not discussing the topic at hand; this is not a forum for you to vent your wikilawyering analysis. --Jerome Frank Disciple 14:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  I emphatically disagree that anything I've said is a personal attack against anyone, but per agreement on your talk page, I will be willing to strike those perceived wrongdoings in order to avoid further argument. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 15:08, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  I also disagree with this; You are not discussing the topic at hand; this is not a forum for you to vent your wikilawyering analysis. because I didn't bring it up, blueboar did here and JoelleJay did here so if you continue to single me out while not saying anything to others you will get reported. I've been really nice about this, but if you don't stop I will be forced to do something to prevent it from happening. Huggums537 (talk) 16:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  You've made your point, repeatedly. It appears not to have achieved consensus agreement here, nor anywhere else. I thoroughly understand being disappointed about that, having experienced the same thing. But perhaps a separate RfC just on your issue might be more appropriate than continuing here. – .Raven  .talk 17:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  Sure. Perhaps an RfC is in order and WP:Consensus can change, but the passage you just outdented from is not a continuation of, or any kind of re-litigation to the points I was trying to make about notability, but rather a complaint about me being singled out for even posting here with my views in the first place. Nobody has the right to tell me I'm not "discussing the topic at hand" while not telling others the same thing who brought it up to begin with. Clearly, they have now stopped the activity since my complaint about it so there wasn't really even any need for you to mention it at all, but whatever. Huggums537 (talk) 18:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "... me being singled out for even posting here with my views...."

  Not really. – .Raven  .talk 18:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  Um. Ok. Not sure I get it, but take care with your partial block. Huggums537 (talk) 18:46, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  Though I have somewhat backed off from my original argument, I should make it clear that my point was not at all that the deadname could be verified, but that it would itself be needed for a reader with access to the source to do the verifying. small jars tc 12:36, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support My !vote's similar to SMcCandlish, but I like the proposal generally, and don't see the need to oppose just because some of the wording isn't perfect, even if the general rule/principle is on point. We can keep tweaking if we need to. SportingFlyer T·C 16:04, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Why would we be excluding previous names of persons which are both public and sourced? This is part of what should be in a useful encyclopedia article. North8000 (talk) 16:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  Respecting off-wiki name changes just as we do ON-wiki name changes. – .Raven  .talk 16:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  ??? North8000 (talk) 17:10, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  On-wiki, you can change your username, and even dissociate your new name from the old one, for instance as a WP:CLEANSTART, or because of some personal information released about the old one. Showing the very same courtesy to OFF-wiki individuals seems a matter of ethical consistency. We may not be able to, if per RSs the person was notable under the old name, as in the case of Chelsea Manning, but otherwise that should be the default assumption — don't include unless there's "encyclopedic interest", which is "not automatic"... per last week's RfC. – .Raven  .talk 18:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  On-wiki, you can change your username — WP:RENAME explicitly says "Existing ... mentions of the old username in discussions are not affected by a rename. Renames appear in the user rename log ... This is done in the interest of transparency." RENAME does not deny or hide the past, nor should an encyclopedia article on a person who changed their name. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  ... dissociate your new name from the old one, for instance as a WP:CLEANSTART — I do not think WP:CLEANSTART is a good analogy - the reasons for a CLEANSTART are (presumably) different to the reasons for a trans person changing their name, but since you raised it, CLEANSTART says: "Be aware that no one can grant permission for a clean start. ... If you attempt a clean start but are recognized, you will be held accountable for your actions under both the old and new accounts." This is stretching the (not-very-good) analogy, but the point is that CLEANSTART does not assure disassociation from your old name, not does it say (for example) "editors are forbidden from mentioning an editor's previous account name". Mitch Ames (talk) 09:00, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  There's another difference. Our job here is to write articles that cover the article subject. And we don't have that responsibility to cover Wikipedia editors.North8000 (talk) 14:26, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  "Why" is that just a week ago an RFC on this same page closed as there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion and that there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest. Loki (talk) 17:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support. This proposed addition to the rules is, in my view, an important step in implementing the close of the previous RfC. Opposition on the grounds that the RfC technically closed as "no consensus" misses the forest for the trees, in my opinion; the "no consensus" finding did not reflect an overall lack of agreement on how to handle this issue, but instead reflected a general agreement that the ideal result was within the grey area between two of the originally proposed options. Finally, I want to express my particular support for the inclusion of multiple examples in the language; including examples is a helpful eludicating factor for guidance that could be otherwise vague. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as currently worded. I don't think "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name" is quite the right bar to set, though I admit that I'm unsure how exactly to improve it. I think this bar is a bit too high; extending this to "extensive use or discussion" may be better, or perhaps it may be a bit too low. Overall, I also wonder if setting a firm guideline is for the best — perhaps it would be better to simply advise against including former names in these situations unless there's an overriding encyclopedic interest, and let individual cases be determined locally. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 21:17, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support, with hope for further refinement. I am convinced by the many helpful and edifying comments above that this new language represents a significant improvement over the status quo. The exact words could benefit from further smithing, but this is an evolving area of usage guidance, and hopefully our own guidance will continue to evolve as well. -- Visviva (talk) 22:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current wording of "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name" is problematic; except in cases where the name is unusual or follows unusual practices (for example, E. E. Cummings#Name and capitalization) the names of individuals are almost never subject to such analysis or discussion. Its absence is also not a reasonable predictor of encyclopaedic significance; if every reliable source on an individual considers a specific name relevant then that name clearly has encyclopaedic significance, even when there is no in-depth analysis of it.
  This can be seen in the provided example of Gloria Hemingway; while her former name has encyclopaedic significance I have been unable to find any "in-depth analysis or discussion" of the name. It is frequently mentioned in the context of in-depth analysis or discussion of her relationship with her gender identity and gender expression, but that isn't the same thing as the name itself being subject to such coverage.
  This proposal would also conflict with policy; there are many circumstances where it would require us to exclude names that WP:NPOV would require us to include due to their prominence in reliable sources. I suggest that any future proposal simply directs editors to that core policy; it would exclude mention of names that lack encyclopaedic significance and should be an uncontroversial and non-problematic change. BilledMammal (talk) 06:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "This proposal would also conflict with policy; there are many circumstances where it would require us to exclude names that WP:NPOV would require us to include due to their prominence in reliable sources."

  The horse already left that barn: WP:BLPPRIVACY has us not report personal information (address, phone#) against the subject's will, even if news sources have done so: "Consensus has indicated that the standard for inclusion of personal information of living persons is higher than mere existence of a reliable source that could be verified." WP:BLPCRIME has us not report the names of unconvicted arrestees even if those names have been prominent in RSs. WP:BLPNAME has us be similarly careful about non-arrested people's names: "When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context." (We couldn't have done so anyway without RS[s], but again the "mere existence" of an RS would not be enough.)

  The previous RfC's closer summarized: "there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest" – which is entirely compatible in spirit with those BLP sections. – .Raven  .talk 07:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  This argument is completely irrelevant as this isn't a BLP issue. The previous RFC didn't extend all BLP protections to all dead trans people. Iffy★Chat -- 08:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  The previous RfC's closer specifically said, "there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest." [emphasis added] – .Raven  .talk 01:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  The relevant section would be Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources; the requirement of being "widely published by reliable sources" is less strict than the requirement proposed here and does not conflict with WP:NPOV.

  Plus, as Iffy points out, we aren't discussing BLP's here. BilledMammal (talk) 12:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal: This proposal would also conflict with policy; there are many circumstances where it would require us to exclude names that WP:NPOV would require us to include due to their prominence in reliable sources. Actually, if you check the footnote in the proposal, the second wikilink is to the WP:BALASP part of NPOV. We already have a consensus from the previous RfC (see the first wikilink in the footnote) that the former names of deceased trans and non-binary individuals are not automatically considered to be of encyclopaedic interest, which de facto puts us into WP:VNOT, WP:NOTEVERYTHING, and minor aspects territory.

  the requirement of being "widely published by reliable sources" is less strict than the requirement proposed here Yes, but it also conflicts with the close of the previous RfC. To quote from that close, Many responses supporting different options specifically called out the difficulty of dealing with a "majority" of sources, e.g. is 50%+1 sufficient? How does a majority take into account emphasis and source quality? Some of those supporting option 2 suggested a higher bar than majority as well. That tells us that "widely published", which for some editors can be as little as 50%+1, for others is some form of supermajority, and does not always take into account the quality of the sources available, is not only difficult for us to define in a guideline, but also an option that has been rejected to some degree by the community.

  Any proposal to actually implement the consensus of the last RfC has a difficult task, and a very small target to hit. As the side discussion on Barkeep49's talk page alludes to, the consensus that lies between options 2 (sometimes include) and 3 (never include) is considerably closer to option 3 than 2. That means that whatever bar is set, it has provide for not including the name in the majority of articles, while still allowing some wiggle room for inclusion in a minority of articles where it is of encyclopaedic relevance. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Actually, if you check the footnote in the proposal, the second wikilink is to the WP:BALASP part of NPOV. Linking NPOV doesn't change the fact that the proposed wording would require us to exclude names when NPOV would require us to include them - including, it seems, in the case of the example you provided, Gloria Hemingway. BilledMammal (talk) 20:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, I'm not seeing the value of making this addition which is setting a bar too high for verification IMO.--Ortizesp (talk) 06:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as too restrictive, and on principle because we can't pick and choose when to ignore hard policy in the MOS. That way lies madness (and WP:NOTANARCHY). —Locke Cole • t • c 06:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  WP:BLP is also policy. See my citation of its sections, above. – .Raven  .talk 07:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  WP:NPOV is the only policy that explicitly states it is non-negotiable. The additional text is also unnecessary instruction creep. —Locke Cole • t • c 15:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  NPOV explicitly allows for the exclusion of content should it be deemed a minor aspect of the subject, see WP:BALASP which is linked in the footnote of the proposal above.

  The additional text is unfortunately necessary for two reasons. We already find ourselves in situations on many articles where the lack of explicit guidance for handling the former names of deceased trans and non-binary individuals forms the focal point of long and occasionally contentious discussions of inclusion or exclusion. This proposal, or any similar one, will go a long way to reducing the number of discussions that are currently necessary, because the lack of guidance currently requires a per-article local consensus to be formed in all cases. Secondly, we already have a consensus from the previous RfC, as well as an older one from August 2021 that we need some form of explicit guidance to handle former names for the majority of cases of deceased trans and non-binary people.

  And in case it comes up, to pre-emptively answer why this proposal is targeted at the most recent RfC and not the August 2021 RfC, it's clear from the more recent RfC that consensus for when to include or exclude a former name has changed in the intervening two years. The current consensus is significantly stricter on inclusion than the consensus from August 2021, and this proposal reflects that stricter criteria for inclusion. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support as this seems to reflect best practices and is the logical extension of the consensuses reached in the previous discussion. (Prefer Thryduulf's version but either is good.) Mere passing mentions of a name that the subject was not otherwise notable under should obviously not be enough for inclusion, let alone to mandate it, as some people above have asserted. Some people express concern that discussions could demand an insurmountable bar for inclusion; but there's no real evidence to back that up. Meanwhile it's clear that many people above believe that any handful of mentions, no matter how slight, would be sufficient to literally force inclusion. That is an untenable position to take, and it is clear from the above that it is one that many people will take unless we word the MOS guidance to at least provide some sort of bar beyond that. --Aquillion (talk) 07:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Aquillion, opposers aren't arguing that a passing mention of a name someone was not notable under should be mandated. The issue is that someone's name (former name or not, living subject or not) almost never receives in-depth discussion in HQRS, so this proposal is effectively eliminating any mention of a dead trans person's deadname ever, which goes way beyond the close summary that deadnames merely aren't automatically encyclopedic. The proposal would bar including the deadname even in situations where there is already a single SIGCOV IRS source on the subject pre-transition, or where every single post-transition SIGCOV source states the deadname, or even where every source repeatedly mentions the deadname without specifically "discussing it in depth". It would even require a former name to be more notable than the subject themselves in cases where the subject just scrapes by NBASIC without any SIGCOV sourcing. It just doesn't make sense for inclusion of a deadname to go above and beyond WP:DUE and WP:MINORASPECT. JoelleJay (talk) 18:57, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Some1, Trystan and BilledMammal. Firstly, we should be using our standard editorial practices to decide this issue on a case by case basis. These articles aren't BLPs so I fail to see any reason for a special standard to apply here that we don't even apply to BLPs. Even if there should be some special standard here, the standard proposed doesn't match the examples given. Iffy★Chat -- 09:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "Firstly, we should be using our standard editorial practices..."

  The previous RfC's consensus/closure left this one detail (exactly when to include deadnames, between "sometimes" and "never") for another discussion. This is that discussion, obeying that consensus. Judging "Notability" for inclusion is one of the "standard editorial practices" we're used to; this just applies it to deadnames, the same way we already apply it to articles overall.

  "... to decide this issue on a case by case basis."

  The specifics for each article subject (e.g. was the deadname notable before the change?) WILL have to be decided on a case by case basis. But without sitewide guidance on what to look for, what criteria to apply, we'll have a lot of RfC-type argument about that same issue reprised on talkpage after talkpage, resulting in no consistency across the site. – .Raven  .talk 23:33, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  This has nothing to do with "notability". WP:Notability is a standard for whether a topic can have its own stand-alone article, and is entirely unrelated to what can be mentioned in an article (that's covered by WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE and WP:UNDUE policies).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  We already have MOS:DEADNAME (part of MOS:BIO) saying:

  In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, their birth name or former name (professional name, stage name, or pseudonym) should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under that name.

  Again, "only if they were notable under that name." [emphasis added]

  And the RfC closed June 7 expects us to cover "living or dead." Why not by the same rule? – .Raven  .talk 09:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Well, I do think that's a misrepresentation of the RFC. There was a proposal to simply remove living from relevant paragraph, which would apply the same rule to living or dead—that was option 3. There was also a proposal to include per WP:PLA, considering whether the name was used in a majority of reliable sources—that was option 2. The closer found that there wasn't a consensus for either option 2 or 3, but that the consensus was, rather, for a intermediary position.--Jerome Frank Disciple 09:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I quoted one clause verbatim from the boldfaced portion of the closure. That portion in full, sans bold:

  there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest.

  Note the clause "living or dead". – .Raven  .talk 19:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  The portion of your comment I'm addressing is "Why not by the same rule?"--Jerome Frank Disciple 19:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Which does not "misrepresent the RfC" because it's a separate sentence (in my own voice) from the sentence about the previous RfC. As in:

  'Hey, you wanted to go to dinner. Why not this new restaurant I found?'

  'You're misrepresenting me. I said I wanted to go to dinner, but I didn't mention that restaurant.'

  – .Raven  .talk 20:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think presenting that as possibly consistent with the RFC expectation is a little rough but yeah okay I guess "And the RfC closed June 7 expects us to cover "living or dead." Why not [in contravention of its expectation/finding] by the same rule?" doesn't misrepresent the RFC. I also have no clue why we're bothering to talk about that as an option, since it's not on the table and, given the last RFC (not to mention this one), isn't likely to be any time soon, but fair enough!--Jerome Frank Disciple 20:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  It would accomplish "sometimes" though not "never"; at least it would reduce the number of inclusions — which I think targets the area in the middle. And it would take an existing rule as guide. Note that simply removing the word "living" from WP:DEADNAME would suffice, no long additional verbage needed. – .Raven  .talk 21:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  That's exactly what option 3 suggested.--Jerome Frank Disciple 21:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Okay then. – .Raven  .talk 21:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. We are first an encyclopedia, and try to preserve and disseminate knowledge. We do have a strong secondary goal of minimizing harm, but where these conflict, "living" is a good place to draw the line. --GRuban (talk) 13:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support (and would also support Thryduulf's wording): I do find this somewhat covered already by WP:WEIGHT, but there can be value in specifically mentioning a subcase, especially when that subcase is contentious. Sometimes you just have to spell it out for people. Gnomingstuff (talk) 14:22, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources" is far too restrictive. Omitting birth names can hinder further research (just like omitting date and place of birth would), and the BLP reasons to omit such information although it is available no longer apply after a person has been dead for a few years. I very much agree with GRuban. —Kusma (talk) 14:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think the "in-depth" qualifications in the proposed wording is way too restrictive, because someone's name is generally not something that's discussed in that manner, whether cis, queer, whatever (per Blueboar.) It also runs into CREEP issues trying to apply a single ruleset to varied circumstances. BLP, WEIGHT, etc. all offer enough guidance for the edge cases to be hashed out. This is starting to run into a solution in search of a problem. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 15:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support by arguments in the previous RFC, which already ascertained that the consensus was similar to this wording. Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose:as per Some1 and EddieHugh. This seems like a lot of WP:CREEP and will make more discussions without improving the quality of information in any given article. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 15:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support My thoughts run basically along the lines of Aquillion's comment. The concern about demand[ing] an insurmountable bar for inclusion, as that comment puts it, is understandable but comes across to me as borrowing trouble. I would also agree with Thryduulf's proposed alternate wording. XOR'easter (talk) 15:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support – the previous RfC already found consensus for something in this direction. This proposal in particular has the notability bar we apply for living individuals, plus an allowance for discussing names where it really is relevant. I somewhat agree with Thryduulf's concern, and I think "notable prior to discarding that name" is the best solution. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 15:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  ^ Would second that.--Jerome Frank Disciple 15:58, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support, but I would prefer to add a little more - something clearly needs to be done here, yes, but I don't like the creep issues noted above. I think it would be nice to add some wording to the effect of "this is just WP:DUE restated for emphasis, not a rule" but more formal. (I'm also still dying on the hill of applying the same rules to all people, deceased or living, that I died on in the RfC, but I recognize that's not up for discussion right now.) casualdejekyll 18:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support I'm open to refining the wording, but I think the most important thing at this stage is to get the wording close enough to our intent that we can implement the result of the previous RfC, and I feel like this suffices. I'm already dismayed to see people relitigating the original RfC in the opposes here, and the more time we spend debating the wording, the harder it will be to get a consensus to implement something we already decided to implement. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 19:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support. No bar is too high when it comes to dead names of trans folk. There is no reason to mention it unless the subject was notable under their previous name. Skyerise (talk) 19:26, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support - I think this is a definite step in the right direction. I do agree with many of the other commenters that the wording could be improved but it's difficult to think of how to specifically word this proposal to fall between options 2 and 3 of the previous RFC and I would definitely rather come to a consensus on this and try to tweak it from there. Tekrmn (talk) 20:37, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Kusma. Ruslik_Zero 20:38, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. “in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources” is an absurdly high bar. Or at least it has the massive potential to be used as such a bludgeon that it is effectively the same as saying “prior notable names only”—a standard that has now been rejected. I would probably support the change without that phrase (ie, include names on encyclopaedic merit) , but at this point it feels like a small group are taking every chance to push a higher bar than the community wants. You have had my opinion many times elsewhere, so I won’t go on. — HTGS (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as explained before. No other part of a person's biography like their DOB requires "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources" to be included.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 21:28, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Well, regardless, an RFC was just closed saying a dead trans person's name does indeed deserve special protections. This RFC is an implementation of that consensus. It's fine to say you think the bar is too high, but there's already a recent consensus that there should be a bar somewhere. Loki (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  Nothing agreed to here can in any way undermine or change the fact that WP:NPOV is a non-negotiable policy, and that DUE is part of that obligation. It even supersedes BLP, in that regard. We won’t be setting aside our sources just to conform to the whims of a small group of people. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:50, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  Cool, and the fact that people have arrived at such a consensus also implies a consensus that your interpretation of WP:NPOV is wrong. It's the policy that's non-negotiable, not your idiosyncratic interpretation of it.

  (My personal reading of why you're wrong is that NPOV does not require Wikipedia to include any particular material, even material covered in reliable sources. WP:V is much closer to what you're looking for, but even it doesn't require us to cover anything. What NPOV and V say is that if we want to cover material, it should be in proportion to its weight in reliable sources. But they don't contradict the many policies giving reasons why we might not cover certain material, such as WP:NOT, WP:BLP, WP:GRATUITOUS, and even WP:NPOV itself, among others.) Loki (talk) 03:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  The arguments provided by the likes of GRuban, Kusma, and David Fuchs are more far more compelling than those that support the proposal hence why I oppose it.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 20:41, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Collapse tangential sniping ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:18, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

NPOV was not part of the prior RFC. You’re welcome to start an RFC to change NPOV to state that neutrality is optional for transgender people. I’ll be a hard oppose to such a change, but if that’s what you want to do, go with God. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC) "Hey Locke Cole, no one seems to agree with your interpretation of NPOV" "Well until the NPOV is changed, MY INTERPRETATION CONTROLS" ???--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:43, 16 June 2023 (UTC) That's a beautiful strawman you've made. You should really do this sort of thing professionally. —Locke Cole • t • c 15:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC) Oh sorry do you want quotes? Loki: Cool, and the fact that people have arrived at such a consensus also implies a consensus that your interpretation of WP:NPOV is wrong. It's the policy that's non-negotiable, not your idiosyncratic interpretation of it. You: You’re welcome to start an RFC to change NPOV to state that neutrality is optional for transgender people. The fundamental issue is that very few people agree with your claim that not including a non-notable deadname is an NPOV violation. I get that you do consider it that way, as you've said over and over again. (In fact, in the last RFC, you even repeatedly insisted that principally referring to trans people by their chosen name would be an NPOV violation!) But you seem to be among a distinct minority that interprets NPOV that way. So it's not on Loki to suggest a change to the NPOV policy. If you want the community following your interpretation of NPOV policy, you should probably make a proposal. Or you can just deal with having your idiosyncratic NPOV points repeatedly ignored. Either way, go with God.--Jerome Frank Disciple 15:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per GRuban, Kusma, and David Fuchs. In this proposal, the bar is being set too high such that it would hinder possible knowledge from being included via research (especially when the former name is the primary name that reliable sources use), when the harm to dead people is non-existent. It is also not apparent what "in-depth analysis" of a deadname is expected, and it is not clear that even the cited example of Gloria Hemingway has that for Gregory Hemingway. starship.paint (exalt) 03:33, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support per ModernDayTrilobyte. We had this discussion already; the consensus was that deadnames should not be used unless they are encyclopedic and that past names are not inherently encyclopedic. The fact that this guideline comports with existing policies indicates that it is supported by broad consensus, which makes it a good rule. The belief that all verifiable deadnames are encyclopedic is not just against community consensus and the principles of the project, it is deeply rooted in ideology. Pretending it has anything to do with neutrality or integrity is nothing more than farce. —Rutebega (talk) 05:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  Consensus across the wiki is that all names used by a notable individual (pseudonyms, married names, various names used in ancient China) are encyclopedic. The proposal seeks to carve out an exception from this for people who have changed gender identity. It seems to be the proposal that is based in ideology. —Kusma (talk) 08:34, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "Consensus across the wiki..." — Link?

  > "... all names used by a notable individual (pseudonyms, married names, various names used in ancient China) are encyclopedic."

  WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE differs:

  Many Wikipedia articles contain material on people who are not well known, even if they are notable enough for their own article. In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to the person's notability, focusing on high-quality secondary sources. Material published by the subject may be used, but with caution (see § Using the subject as a self-published source, above). Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there are additional protections for subjects who are not public figures.

  See Public figure for the latter distinction.

  And once again, the RfC here closed on June 7 has this in the closure statement: "there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest." – .Raven  .talk 10:20, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

  I have no idea why you mention WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE, which is about living people, so totally offtopic here. I think it is a bad principle to treat dead transgender people's names different from other dead people's names. Articles about dead people contain all kinds of information that we don't necessarily include in articles about living people. While some living people don't want their birthday to be known, and we sometimes respect that, we should not omit sourced birthdates from articles about dead people, and we should not ask for in-depth discussion of the date in high quality sources. We give former names of dead people if the name was a pseudonym or the name change was by adoption, marriage, or deed poll (just look at almost any article about a dead person who changed their name; that is what I mean by "consensus across the wiki"), but you say we should not do that if the name change was due gender identity? Most of my wiki work is about people who have been dead for a long time. To find out more about these people, it helps immensely to know their birth name and date and place of birth. Deliberately hiding some of these for certain classes of people harms our encyclopaedic mission. Living people is our exception, and that is a sufficient exception. —Kusma (talk) 14:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

  Except the June 7 consensus, by saying "living or dead", is suggesting the same standards of what is "encyclopedic interest" be applied to both. In that case, the question of whether the person is-or-was a "public figure" surely applies: movie stars and holders of public office get more coverage, in life and death, than non-public figures. "We give former names of dead people" for people like Joan Crawford and Gerald Ford; for living (and in this case "living or dead") non-public figures such as people notable only for one event (BLP1E, BIO1E), we give less detail, e.g. "In general, creating a pseudo-biography (on an individual who is only notable because of their participation in a single event) will mean that an editor creating the article will try to "pad out" the piece by including extraneous biographical material, e.g. their date and place of birth, family background, hobbies and employment, etc. Such information, in many cases, will fail the inclusion test.... When in doubt, concentrate on the notable event, rather than invading privacy for the sake of padding out an unnecessary biography." – .Raven  .talk 16:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

  I very much hope that we use a stricter standards for deadnames of living trans people than for people who have been dead for 200 years, so what you say is the June 7 consensus seems to be a bad idea. WP:DUE always applies, but WP:BLP correctly does not apply to people who have been dead for a while. —Kusma (talk) 17:51, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "what you say is the June 7 consensus" — See the closure full-text.  I quoted from the portion emphasized by boldface in the original. – .Raven  .talk 17:16, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support as a reasonable formalization of WP:UNDUE in this context, and as simply the right thing to do. Hatman31 (talk) 18:08, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as an impossible bar to meet. How many notable people outside royalty have "in-depth analysis and discussion" of any of their names (living or dead) in reliable, independent sources? Most people weren't notable as children, but information about the childhood and origins of notable people is still of encyclopaedic interest: it helps flesh out how they evolved, their context, etc. As others have said, this should be decided on a case by case basis through normal editing and talk page discussion. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 07:29, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, it's pretty ridiculous to require that deadnames themselves receive essentially GNG-contributory coverage--especially when there are thousands of subjects who don't meet GNG and just got articles via scraping by BASIC with a handful of non-SIGCOV mentions. We shouldn't have a higher inclusion standard for article content than for an article subject! It would make much more sense for a deadname to be mentioned if it appears within multiple pieces of SIGCOV of the subject. JoelleJay (talk) 21:00, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support previous RFC showed wide support for updating this policy. The proposed wording is in line with existing policy around DUE weight. Rab V (talk) 05:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I strongly support LGBT+ rights, I sympathize with the difficulties they face, and I condemn discrimination. If someone isn't sleeping in my bed I don't care what orientation or identity they have, who they want to marry, whether they want to adopt a child, or whatever else. However I am not on board with attempts to deny, rewrite, exterminate, or censor history. It should not require some onerous criteria for a literal biography to include the most basic and expected biograhical facts. Just about any professional book-biography is going to mention birth name and name changes for any biographical-subject, if such information is available. Our job is to provide readers the information that they'd reasonably expect to find in a biography, and that is pretty universally expected to include birthname. Alsee (talk) 11:25, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: As a genderqueer person, I understand why deadnames are under consideration to be removed, to reduce the harm faced by trans people, which is a fair thing. But then, what harm are already dead people facing? And secondly, an encyclopedia's duty is to disseminate knowledge of interest, not harm reduction. There's a reason why we do not have helpline numbers at the top of suicide methods for example. I agree with Some1, Kusma & Alsee above, and believe that we are building an encyclopedia and (verifiable, true) information matters. Birth name for trans people like birth place or birth date are basic details. If such information is available, it should be on the article. In that regard, it should be no different from name changes on other occasions, like marriage, or stagename, and inclusion or exclusion must be decided accordingly. We should not attempt to censor history. I would have raised this earlier, but I was on a wiki-break for college exams. Assuming that Wikipedia has collectively decided that information must be censored, I still don't even know what "in-depth analysis and discussion" of name is supposed to mean. Unless someone was named Ima Hogg or something, prior to transitioning, I wonder if there would be any "in-depth analysis and discussion" of the name available at all. The proposed wording effectively sets a standard that is near impossible to meet. As far as an inclusion standard is concerned, this is just WP:CREEP when WP:DUE should be sufficient. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 17:26, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom and JFD, per Aquillion's counterarguments to concerns raised, and especially per Silverseren. Ideally prefer Thryduulf's proposed wording. I think this is quite a good improvement over the current wording. DFlhb (talk) 03:06, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED, essentially. FOARP (talk) 07:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support but add links to WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOTABLE in the first paragraph. The first paragraph feels a bit clunky, but not so much to garner an oppose. The void century 00:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  @The void century, adding a link to Notable is a terrible idea per WP:NNC, and exactly the reason why I am going o oppose this proposal. Huggums537 (talk) 11:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think you misunderstood. I meant to link wp:notable where they mention the word "notable" in if they were notable prior to transitioning. That just makes clear what they mean by notable. It has nothing to do with WP:NNC. The void century 12:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I understood perfectly. What I'm telling you is that nothing in the notability guidance supports governing content within articles. Notability is a factor to determine if a topic warrants having an article or doesn't, not if something (like a deadname) should be mentioned in an article or not. In other words, it doesn't matter if something is (or was) notable just to be mentioned in an article, it only matters if it is notable when you are talking about if it deserves an article. This is per WP:NNC (Which is a section of the notability guidance so it has everything to do with it.) Huggums537 (talk) 12:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Correction. I said this is per NNC, but it is actually per the whole Notability guideline. It even starts out telling you so directly from the outset in the last sentence of the nutshell: The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic may have its own article. Huggums537 (talk) 12:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I suspected you might show up! Just so everyone is clear (because, speaking from experience and the apparent experience of others, this can be a bit jarring when you first encounter it): User:Huggums537 is philosophically opposed to the use of either WP:NOTABLE or a more general concept of "noteworthiness" as a criterium for content. (See this discussion, for example, or the the current discussion at WT:NOT concerning WP:NOTDIRECTORY, which presently says that disambiguation pages should be restricted to "just the notable" entries.) Chiefly, Huggums cites WP:NNC, which says that the notability guidelines don't apply to content (though I'm not sure the conclusion follows—from my perspective, WP:NOTABLE, by itself, is, as NNC makes clear, meant to apply to article-creation issues, but that doesn't mean that a different policy or guideline can't employ the notability criteria to determine a specific content question, only that application of NOTABLE to content without such a policy or guideline is invalid).

  Now, MOS:GENDERID expressly calls for distinct treatment of living persons who were notable before transitioning, and this proposal would not affect that. The idea that a name is more relevant to a person's Wikipedia article if that person was notable (or at least noteworthy) under that name seems fairly uncontroversial (though I assume Huggums would prefer that we use some kind of proxy measure or other language—Huggums, if you'd like to start an RFC to test whether there's community consensus for your "no consideration of notability in content ever" position, I'd be curious to see it!). Rather, the proposal is meant to bring the treatment of deceased persons closer in line to the treatment of living person. (Of course, I completely understand Huggums voting against the proposal because he doesn't want additional content guidance based on notability.)--Jerome Frank Disciple 12:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'm a little weirded out and perplexed by your decision to blast out my opinions here, but thanks for spreading the message at any rate. I really see nothing jarring about doing exactly what the guidance says to do, and I also see absolutely no need whatsoever on wasting time starting any RfC's to test my ideas for consensus when they have already been enshrined as consensus in the guidance for years now. Perhaps you would like to be the one to start an RfC to see if you can have it changed or removed? I'd be curious to see how that goes! Huggums537 (talk) 13:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC) Updated on 13:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  ?? As I said, it's already in the guideline? We don't need to start an RFC to keep it. (Also ... you started an RFC in one of the other discussions I linked ... so this whole "I don't need to start an RFC because it's already my way" seems a little thin, but all good!)--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I've included a link to clarify, but yeah it sure isn't all my way yet. That's one thing we can agree on. Huggums537 (talk) 14:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I don't know why you've hyper obsessed over this issue or somehow identified with it so strongly as to term it "[your] way", particularly given that your conversations concerning this issue have often been totally unconnected to your mainspace contributions. But your reading of NNC is unique: NNC does not say that no content guideline can incorporate WP:N for any purpose. To quote one editor from one of your prior efforts to push this, I'm now at least the sixth editor "to tell [you] there's no dilemma/conflict" (that editor then said your continued insistence otherwise was "bordering WP:IDHT").

  To be clear, I'm not saying you have to agree. If you're opposing this RFC because you don't think notability should ever be incorporated by a content guideline, that's fine—and if you find it a good use of your time you're of course welcome to continue pushing your general view. But, below, you're proposing that "notable" be removed from the portion of MOS:GENDERID discussing living persons, which isn't being discussed here. You're also saying you have no interest in starting an RFC to propose that. This isn't a forum for you to randomly discuss your philosophy or make idle chatter about what you think Wikipedia guidelines should be. I'm done conversing with you here.--Jerome Frank Disciple 14:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not so sure what's so hard to grasp about WP:NOTEWORTHY, when it clearly says (in the heading even) Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles [...]. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  If you would like to start an RFC saying that MOS:GENDERID's current guideline as to living persons fail WP:NNC, you're welcome to, but I should warn you that I think you'll end up looking stupid. Your call.--Jerome Frank Disciple 17:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  you'll end up looking stupid Couldn't be any dumber than the idiotsmore ridiculous than the people who got us to MOS:GENDERID as currently worded when WP:DUE was there the whole time and perfectly covers this from beginning to end. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Says the guy who wouldn't even supporting using a trans person's chosen name. I wonder if it's really just DUE animating your position. Either way, I guess that's a no on the RFC. Well, no further discussion needed then.--Jerome Frank Disciple 17:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  If it's their chosen name, then we would have sources to reflect that and it would be DUE. Anything else stupid to add? —Locke Cole • t • c 18:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry—"principally referring to a trans person by their chosen name". Locke you're a broken record here—if there's any proposal to protect or further respect trans people, you'll be opposed based on your unique view of NPOV/DUE. I got it.--Jerome Frank Disciple 19:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Locke you're a broken record here Trying to avoid having this project overrun with people pushing agendas gets me labeled as stupid and a "broken record", I'll take that. This is an encyclopedia, a collection of human knowledge. If your goal is to hide or omit knowledge because it offends a particular group of people, then this isn't the place for you. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:48, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  "I oppose every proposal meant to protect or show basic respect to trans people. It's my OPPONENTS who have an agenda!"--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:15, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  Gentlemen please. I think we all have our own "agendas" in our own unique way. Let's be civil with each other if we can. Calling each other stupid and trying to call out or speculate about what the other person might have as their unique agenda isn't helping anything. Huggums537 (talk) 13:37, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Instruction creep. Also, the proposed criterium is mistaken: detailed coverage in sources is a requirement for article topics, but not for article elements, such as a former name. Such names are often helpful to readers when trying to identify a person they read about under the previous name. Sandstein 15:05, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  A lot of people are calling this instruction creep, and I'd just like to point out that WP:NOTCREEP says "Additional instruction can be helpful when it succinctly states community consensus regarding a significant point, but it is harmful when the point is trivial, redundant, or unclear." In this case, we already have community consensus that the existing guideline needs to address the topic of deadnames for deceased individuals. additionally, the MOS already references notability as a criteria for the inclusion of deadnames for living people, and we're here to propose a change to a guideline not to go by the status quo, so it's definitely not unreasonable to use that as a criterium. Tekrmn (talk) 15:33, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  Which is the entire problem with holding an RFC to say "should we do something" without specifying what that thing is: it cannot mandate that the outcome of a later RFC has to endorse its logic. FOARP (talk) 14:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  It seems to me that Topic 1 was rather clear on the thing to be done. Topic 2 was the section that only narrowed the choices down to two, after which the closure left it to another discussion to resolve. – .Raven  .talk 16:58, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  but it is harmful when the point is trivial, redundant, or unclear (emphasis added) These changes are redundant to WP:DUE (and even if adopted, are subservient to WP:DUE). The previous RFC was also not based at all on discussion that preceded the RFC, and actually ignored proposed questions and language in favor of an RFC crafted in private between two editors pushing this as their agenda. The proposals being pushed are borderline encapsulations of WP:NOTHERE. When you tell us to stop providing knowledge on things that are verifiable and due in an encyclopedia, you've lost the plot and maybe need to go find something else to do with your spare time. —Locke Cole • t • c 15:42, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  They're not redundant because DUE is not being applied to deadnames in many cases, even when the subject is living, and because DUE does not address deadnames. a lot of wikipedia policies and guidelines have overlaps depending on the contexts they apply to. nobody is telling anyone to stop doing anything, this is a proposal that is seeking consensus, and it is not proposed that you omit the deadname if it's due, it's seeking to define what it means for a deadname to be due in the case of a deceased individual.

  I don't see how the way the proposals for the last RFC came about is relevant. what are you saying, that they should have had an RFC to come up with the proposals for their RFC? I honestly don't know how to respond to the claim that it was tendentious editing because it is so completely unrelated to what that essay discusses. if your point in implying it's tendentious editing is that they're pushing an agenda, this RFC was created because there was a consensus in the previous RFC that the MOS needed to be updated with a change that falls somewhere between two of the options from the last RFC, this RFC was the clear next step.

  I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from telling me what to do and especially telling me that I'm confused. I don't think that's particularly civil. Tekrmn (talk) 16:45, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  We don't need a policy or guideline on deadnames. WP:DUE is fine here. Now, are you here to build an encyclopedia, or are you here to push an agenda? Because one of those is compatible with continuing on this project, and the other is not. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:45, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  I find it to be inappropriate to propose that someone with an opposing viewpoint (one that found consensus in the last RFC for that matter) is pushing an agenda, and to imply once again that I am unfit to participate in this discussion. that being said, I'm here to discuss this proposal, so if you don't have anything to add to that conversation then it looks like we're done here. Tekrmn (talk) 06:12, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Inclusion or removal should follow generally applicable policies, such as WP:WEIGHT, WP:NOTCENSORED, and (for BLPs) WP:BLP, in the same way they apply to any other content. Some editors make a big deal of quoting "not automatically of encyclopedic interest" from the earlier RfC's closer, but there's no surprise there (much less a bombshell). It's just like any normal content, for which the default state of affairs is that policies don't ordinarily make blanket pronouncements that things "automatically" or inherently must be included. I also concur with BilledMammal and others on the problematic nature of "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name". Adumbrativus (talk) 06:44, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as the proposal in opposition to the purpose of an encyclopedia, which is to inform. Others above who oppose have also made arguments I agree with. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:04, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "the purpose of an encyclopedia, which is to inform"

  Isn't that an argument against all the WP:BIO protections? And policies like WP:DUE, which also limit what we include? – .Raven  .talk 16:27, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  One reason I see that supporters are failing here is that the argument has been commonly presented as an issue of respect for transgender people, and a general lack of understanding BLP protections and NOTCENSORED. A non-notable former name is protected as a matter of personal privacy for living people, with fading privacy after death and some other exceptions for the living. The proposal to expand this indefinitely has not been presented with a coherent argument outside of social norms in a gender studies class. Raven's response of, "other things are also censored" holds no weight. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  But even the privacy protections for living people, if up for a vote now, could be answered "Oppose as the proposal in opposition to the purpose of an encyclopedia, which is to inform." Clearly prior consensus and policy had established that our "purpose to inform" is balanced by other considerations. Denying that balance is not in accord with this. – .Raven  .talk 19:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support per Thryduulf and Aquillion. I consider this a reasonable implementation of the preceding RfC. I can understand that some editors have concerns about the exact wording, but in the spirit of not letting perfect be the enemy of good I don't see a problem with having this pass. After all, it can always be tweaked in future. XAM2175 ^(T) 16:09, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support for reasons I gave in the pre-RfC discussion; in brief, I think this is a decent standard and a decent expression of the consensus of the last RfC (which called for this RfC); Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of insignificant or undue information, especially when said information is gratuitous. I won't be surprised if, like everything else on Wikipedia (including other guidelines and policies), this wording can be and is improved upon over time, but aspirations of eventual perfection are not the enemy of getting a good guideline in place now as an improvement upon the current mess where the same general, non-article-specific arguments get hashed out repeatedly on different articles because there is no general guideline. -sche (talk) 17:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  Just noting that I also agree with Sideswipe9th's comment of 18:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC) (and hence, Trystan's alternative proposal). As for the lengthy and largely unrelated subthread below my comment and similar subthreads elsewhere in this discussion, I would gently urge the other editors involved to consider that if only one or two editors have some unusual, wikilawyeresque position, and aren't persuading anyone else, you may not need to keep engaging with them... (WP:DFTT) -sche (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  How is requiring that a name essentially meets notability requirements in order to be included in the article of its holder a reasonable reading of the consensus?! A fact about a subject that is repeatedly mentioned in RS about that subject most certainly is DUE even if the fact isn't "discussed in depth". If multiple secondary reliable sources report that a subject attended [university X] without going into any detail on it, we include that info. The prior RfC concluded that dead trans people's deadnames should be of encyclopedic value and also that deadnames are not inherently encyclopedic; that means inclusion requires a higher bar than a former name of a dead person would normally need (a mention in secondary RS). It doesn't mean it must be discussed to such an extent that it would qualify for its own subsection. JoelleJay (talk) 19:31, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  Based on this comment and your previous comment it seems like you might be familiar with the current guideline, which does use notability as a criteria for the inclusion of dead names for living trans and nonbinary people. it's not unreasonable to use that as a point of reference for this proposal. Tekrmn (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  The person must have been notable before transitioning, not the deadname. The deadnames of the vast majority of people who were notable before transitioning wouldn't even meet this bar! JoelleJay (talk) 02:24, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  after the proposal says "their former name should only be included if the encyclopaedic significance of the deadname is established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources" it says "or if they were notable prior to transitioning". the existing guideline reads "If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name... it should not be included." in both the proposal and the current guideline notability is applied only to the person themselves. the purpose of this proposal is to codify that the if a deceased person wasn't notable under their deadname then there needs to be a good reason for the name to be included. Tekrmn (talk) 05:25, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  It is irrelevant either way. If you are using notability as a standard for inclusion within an article either for the person or for the deadname, then you've violated WP:NNC. Huggums537 (talk) 05:30, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  The current MOS:GENDERID as it is written is in contradictory violation of the general notability guidance which plainly states in the last sentence of the nutshell that it does not apply to content within articles. Huggums537 (talk) 05:34, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  we aren't here to discuss the existing MOS, but I think it's self-evident that notability is the best and easiest benchmark to use for the inclusion of deadnames. Tekrmn (talk) 06:39, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  I am aware that all trans people who were notable before transitioning would have their deadnames included. What I'm saying is that even they would not meet the deadname notability requirements imposed here, which means the proposed criterion doesn't even correspond to the sourcing status of a deadname in cases where everyone agrees it is DUE under existing guidance. It also means that the proposal is essentially enforcing option 3, which did not receive consensus support. JoelleJay (talk) 17:07, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  I may be misunderstanding you, but it still seems to me that you're under the impression that this proposal would be more restrictive than the existing guideline for living people, which is not the case. this proposal does not enforce option three because it allows for the inclusion of a deadname for people who were notable under that name (option 3) and people who weren't notable under their deadname, but who's deadnames were relevant in some way. if you feel that's too restrictive you can certainly hold that opinion, but this proposal is less restrictive than both option 3 and the current guideline for living people. Tekrmn (talk) 17:15, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, you are misunderstanding me. The proposed criterion is functionally equivalent to option 3 because names do not get SIGCOV. We don't have a single example of a deadname that would qualify under this proposal. The fact that the deadnames of people who were notable under those deadnames don't receive SIGCOV demonstrates that SIGCOV of the name is completely arbitrary and unrelated to whether it is DUE enough for inclusion. JoelleJay (talk) 20:48, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  Gloria Hemingway has been mentioned as someone who would meet this criteria. Marsha P. Johnson might as well, though her birth name was not a deadname to her as far as we're aware. I'm sure there are other examples. I agree that this proposal could be improved upon and that the criteria are probably too specific, but it's no more arbitrary than any other proposal that could arise from the space between options 2 and 3 of the last RFC and it does not apply SIGCOV to names, it uses similar criteria. even if it did use SIGCOV, we've seen with the current MOS that notability is a very useful tool when discussing deadnames. we aren't barred from including these criteria or even explicit references to WP:N in content policies or guidelines just because WP:N as a standalone policy doesn't apply to content. Tekrmn (talk) 04:01, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  Several policies forbid guidance conflicts. See WP:POLICYFORK. Huggums537 (talk) 07:26, 26 June 2023 (UTC) Updated on 07:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  Genuinely, it's your interpretation of WP:NNC that's off from everyone else's. (There's also the issue regarding what do about IAR relative to POLICYFORK, but alas.) I realize the language is at least slightly ambiguous, and perhaps NNC should be changed, but virtually everyone reads NNC as saying that WP:N, on its own, isn't meant to apply to content (e.g., just citing WP:N for a purpose content dispute would), not that content guidelines are prohibited from employing WP:N criteria for various determinations. After all, as we've discussed, WP:NOTDIRECTORY, which is also a policy, currently explicitly cites WP:N for content determination.--Jerome Frank Disciple 11:58, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  If that were true, then the last sentence of the nutshell of WP:N would not say, The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic may have its own article. and the last paragraph in the lede would not say, They do not limit the content of an article or list, though notability is commonly used as an inclusion criterion for lists (for example for listing out a school's alumni). Huggums537 (talk) 12:58, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  That is not at all ambiguous. It is very clear, and in 3 different very prominent pieces of the notability guidance. The nutshell, the lede, and a whole section devoted to the subject. I've heard this "ambiguous" argument before... Huggums537 (talk) 13:03, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  Notability would be wrongly cited in content disputes about these names since it wasn't even supposed to apply in the first place. Huggums537 (talk) 13:22, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  What you just said does not at all definitively suggest that content guidelines cannot use the criteria. As I said, NNC can be read to say that WP:N doesn't directly apply to content. And, as I also said, that reading is actually more consistent with other policy, like WP:NOTDIRECTORY, which applies WP:N to content.

  It's very easy and very dangerous to assume that your minority interpretation of a policy is the only possible reading of that policy. I understand that you've made this issue your crusade ("I vowed to spend the rest of my editing career educating others to think for themselves and do their own research [as to WP:NNC"), but I think it might be worth reconsidering whether crusading is a worthwhile use of your time, particularly given that your success rate in convincing other editors that your read of WP:NNC is the best, let alone the only, read.--Jerome Frank Disciple 14:03, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  Lots of people in the current discussion about the NOTDIRECTORY policy agree with me that it doesn't float water, and an even larger slew of people agreed it was bad business in the RfC before that, and almost everyone thought it was wrong in the original discussion so using that as an example is really a very extremely poor way of saying there is any kind of consensus for it just because someone slipped that small bit into policy without anyone noticing for years. Huggums537 (talk) 14:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  "not inherently of encyclopedic value" wasn't the only consensus found by the closer. Importantly, the closer found that the community believes that, for the most part, the prior name [of a deceased trans or non-binary person] should not be used.

  The largest single !vote count in the previous RFC by a substantial margin was option 3, which was that deadnames of non-notable individuals should never be used. The next highest was option 2, which was based on principle of least astonishment, or about where you're arguing for right now. The consensus of the community was that they wanted something between those two options. Loki (talk) 21:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  (summoned by ping) My first impulse is to oppose based on wording. The notes are too long and don't feel altogether relevant, the footnote could be worked into the prose, and in-depth analysis of a name – the topic of that sentence – feels untenable. The wording seems insufficiently workshopped. My second impulse is to support before people spill another half megabyte of text bikeshedding this, knowing full well it will be bikeshedded in the tweaks after adoption.

  For transparency, I share partial blame for the existence of this RFC, since my call for recusals in an arbitration case pulled Barkeep49 away from their close, which would not have called for a follow-up RFC (not feeling diffs right now, but should be easy to track down).

  I think my only prior contribution in these plural RFCs was claiming the idea that we're doing this to respect the privacy of dead people seems misguided. If I see some dead trans person's non-notable pretransition deadname in an article, the impression I get is that Wikipedia does not respect trans people. It's more about making alive trans readers feel respected than it is about the privacy of dead people. I'm sure opinions differ, and I understand this RFC is not about that exacty.

  Folly Mox (talk) 22:25, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think it's both. If we act with disrespect toward dead trans people, why should not living trans people take that as a sign of disrespect toward themselves as well? At the very least, a sign that they too will be treated likewise one day? On the other hand, if we act with respect toward the dead as well as the living, we are being consistent, and can be taken that way. – .Raven  .talk 01:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "How is requiring that a name essentially meets notability requirements in order to be included in the article of its holder a reasonable reading of the consensus?!"

  MOS:GENDERID says:

  Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise.

  If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name.

  The RfC closed June 7 made the specification "living or dead". – .Raven  .talk 02:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  That guideline says nothing at all about the notability of names. JoelleJay (talk) 02:27, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: For starters, I'm opposed to the conclusion of the prior RfC; a subject's birthname is considered a notable fact that's included in biographical articles as a matter of course, and there is no legitimate reason beyond current gender politics why "deadnames" must be expunged from the record in the case of trans people who badly want to be shot of their previous names, but not in the case (say) of actors who badly want to be shot of their previous names. But to answer Folly Mox above, the mission of Wikipedia is not to respect trans people. It is to respect the facts, and the moment that facts become secondary to political concerns, we're a joke like Conservapedia. Any guideline or policy expunging a birthname that has been established by reliable sources should be opposed. Ravenswing 23:37, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "... the mission of Wikipedia is not to respect trans people. It is to respect the facts...."

  I commend to your attention the Universal Code of Conduct, notably:
  

  2.1 Mutual respect

  ... People may use specific terms to describe themselves. As a sign of respect, use these terms when communicating with or about these people, where linguistically or technically feasible. Examples include: ...

  • People who identify with a certain sexual orientation or gender identity using distinct names or pronouns ....

  3.3 – Content vandalism and abuse of the projects

  Deliberately introducing biased, false, inaccurate or inappropriate content, or hindering, impeding or otherwise hampering the creation (and/or maintenance) of content. This includes but is not limited to: ...

  • Hate speech in any form, or discriminatory language aimed at vilifying, humiliating, inciting hatred against individuals or groups on the basis of who they are or their personal beliefs ....

  It seems to me this indicates that to respect people (trans or otherwise) is part of the mission of the entire Wikimedia project. – .Raven  .talk 01:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  The Code of Conduct says "specific terms to describe themselves. ... use these terms". The RfC say "include" ie "mention". "Using" and "mentioning" are two different things. The Use–mention distinction seems to be lost on many of this discussions' contributors. Mitch Ames (talk) 02:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  If we're going to mention such people, what distinct name do we use to do so? Per UCoC, the one they use. – .Raven  .talk 03:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Use: "John is a trans man". Mention: "He was previously known as Mary". Analogously to the example in the Use–mention distinction, the first sentence is a statement about the person (it uses the name to refer to the person). The second sentence is a statement about the name (it mentions the name without using it to refer to anything other than itself). Mitch Ames (talk) 04:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "He [John] was previously known as Mary" ... mentions the name without using it to refer to anything other than itself.

  Puzzling statement, since the inner quote makes quite clear that name refers (or referred) to John. In fact the two sentences together are logically equivalent to the deprecated form, "Mary changed her name to John when she transitioned to male." — which exchanges the rôles of the two names by your rule. That seems to make this use of the Use-mention distinction a dodge.

  For clarity. That article has the example of cheese (the dairy product) and "cheese" (the word):

  • Use: Cheese is derived from milk.
  • Mention: "Cheese" is derived from (the Anglian variant of) the Old English word ċēse (pronounced [ˈt͡ʃeː.ze]).

  By comparison, mention of the name "Mary" ('not referring to anything other than itself') could say:

  "Mary /ˈmɛəˌri/ is a feminine given name, the English form of the name Maria, which was in turn a Latin form of the Greek name Μαρία, María or Μαριάμ, Mariam, found in the Septuagint and New Testament."

  But it is use of the name "Mary" to say that it refers to John.

  ---

  By the way, I can never watch The Winchesters again without thinking of this, perhaps suggesting that an All You Zombies scenario is due to occur. – .Raven  .talk 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  But it is use of the name "Mary" to say that it refers to John. — I disagree. In John is a trans man, The word "John" denotes or refers to a specific person. In He was previously known as Mary, the word "Mary" denotes or refers to a specific name. That name might denote a person is some sentences, (eg As a child, before transitioning, Mary attended an all-girls school) but not in ... was known as Mary. It might be make more sense (or be more obviously words-as-words) with quotation marks: He was previously known as 'Mary' . Perhaps the quotation marks are strictly required, but no reasonable person would misinterpret the meaning of the sentence (in context) without them.

  Note that my argument regarding the use-mention distinction is independent of whether WMF's Universal Code of Conduct applies. Regardless of whether it is WP:GENDERID or UCoC, the general rule is: use a person's current name; but that does not prohibit mentioning a former name. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "In He was previously known as Mary, the word Mary denotes or refers to a specific name. That name might denote a person i[n] some sentences,... but not in ... was known as Mary."

  You had to remove the "He" and replace it with an ellipsis in order to make that last claim, because in the untruncated sentence "He" (or "John") "was known as Mary", that latter name clearly denotes the same person as "He" (or "John"), in fact that's the point of the sentence.

  In a sentence like "He always thought 'Mary' was a beautiful name", "Mary" does not denote any person, and does refer to nothing but itself.

  See the difference? – .Raven  .talk 09:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I see the difference, but maintain my position. In He thought 'Mary' a beautiful name, the word "Mary" denotes a name that does not denote any specific person. In John was known as 'Mary' (with or without quotes around Mary), the word "Mary" denotes a name, not the person with the name "Mary" (ie John). We are using the word "Mary" to denote/refer to a name, not to denote the person that the name "Mary" denoted. In the same way that the name is not the person ("the word is not the thing"), a reference to the name (ie "was known as Mary") is not a reference to the person. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  But that latter quoted sentence states that the name refers to (denotes) that person.

  As for "the word is not the thing", then the name "John" also isn't the person.

  And "Mark Twain" isn't Mark Twain. "Samuel Clemens" isn't Samuel Clemens. But if I say, Mark Twain was privately known as Samuel Clemens, will you tell me that one name or the other does not refer to (denote) that person? – .Raven  .talk 19:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  will you tell me that one name or the other does not refer to (denote) that person — In the sentence Mark Twain was privately known as Samuel Clemens, the words "Samuel Clemens" denote the name, not the person. I still assert that in your sentence we are using the name "Mark Twain" (the words denote the person) and mentioning the name "Samuel Clemens" (the words denote the name). I suspect that we may simply have to agree to disagree here, but I still think that - regardless of debates about semantics - a sentence such as "John was previously known as Mary" does not contravene a policy that says "Use the person's preferred name". Mitch Ames (talk) 06:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  the use of quotation marks to me indicates a distinction between "use" and "mention" much more clearly than what is used to principally refer to the person (as was discussed in above comments), and we do not do that when we include deadnames in articles. additionally, can we really say we aren't using a name to refer to someone when we are including it for the sole purpose of illustrating that it has been used in the past to refer to someone? I agree that it's not the same as referring to them by that name, but it is at best a gray area and definitely not the same as a mention of a name with no connection to that person.

  I agree that this conversation is largely semantics, but I don't think the takeaway from that should be "we aren't breaking the guideline because using isn't the same as mentioning" it should be "trans people generally don't want their deadname to be used to refer to them or to be public knowledge so we should avoid it when we can." Tekrmn (talk) 14:55, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Mitch Ames I'd strongly recommend going back over the full UCoC, and not engage any argument that relies on a user conduct policy as the basis for a content discussion. You're being misled. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Mitch Ames: See below (linked). – .Raven  .talk 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  It's the USER CONDUCT policy, even the title should be drop dead obvious to anyone that it has nothing to do with editorial or content decisions. Please stop trying to right great wrongs, it's disruptive. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "Please stop trying to right great wrongs, it's disruptive."

  Citing & quoting our own policies, guidelines, etc., is "trying to right great wrongs"?!

  Citing & quoting our own policies, guidelines, etc., is "disruptive"?!

  When did citing & quoting our own policies, guidelines, etc., become against policies, guidelines, etc.? – .Raven  .talk 05:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  You're deliberately misinterpreting them to fit the great wrong you're trying to right. That's disruptive. Knock it off. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Cite/links with direct verbatim quotes are now misinterpretation? Wow. – .Raven  .talk 06:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Yes when you're deliberately mischaracterizing the intent to suit your agenda. —Locke Cole • t • c 06:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  And what exactly do you claim is my "agenda"? – .Raven  .talk 07:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  WP:RGW —Locke Cole • t • c 07:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Addressed above. You've gone in a circle. – .Raven  .talk 09:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Nope. —Locke Cole • t • c 10:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  The UCoC has nothing whatsoever to do with this. It describes conduct amongst editors of the project, not content decisions. @Ravenswing is correct, respecting trans people is not a mission of the project (either locally, or at a foundational level). And to engage in that will open up the floodgates of other groups wanting our content to conform to their views, all of which would run afoul of WP:NPOV. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "The UCoC... describes conduct amongst editors of the project, not content decisions."

  Directly above, I quoted a portion of the UCoC's "3.3 – Content vandalism and abuse of the projects":

  Deliberately introducing biased, false, inaccurate or inappropriate content, or hindering, impeding or otherwise hampering the creation (and/or maintenance) of content. This includes but is not limited to: ...

  • Hate speech in any form, or discriminatory language aimed at vilifying, humiliating, inciting hatred against individuals or groups on the basis of who they are or their personal beliefs ....

  To say that this does not describe content decisions seems rather obviously false.

  > "... respecting trans people is not a mission of the project (either locally, or at a foundational level)."

  Locally, WP:DEADNAME's "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification...." [emphasis in original]  certainly seems to advocate respecting at least trans people's preferences of name, pronoun, and job description gender.

  So again, well....

  > "And to engage in that will open up the floodgates..."

  Slippery slope fallacy. – .Raven  .talk 05:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Directly above, I quoted a portion of the UCoC's "3.3 – Content vandalism and abuse of the projects": How nice for you. You quoted part of the USER CONDUCT policy relating to not vandalizing the project. Yet again, nothing to do with making editorial decisions. Following our sources can never be considered "hate speech" or "vilifying" or any other adjective you come up with to describe being accurately described based on reliable sources. To say that this does not describe content decisions seems rather obviously false. It's rather obviously false to suggest this has any bearing whatsoever on editorial decisions. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "You quoted part of the USER CONDUCT policy relating to not vandalizing the project. Yet again, nothing to do with making editorial decisions."

  It takes being a user to make editorial decisions; here the user conduct being addressed was "Deliberately introducing biased, false, inaccurate or inappropriate content, or hindering, impeding or otherwise hampering the creation (and/or maintenance) of content." Clearly those are editorial decisions and actions — just bad ones.

  Are you perhaps trying to distinguish between the decisions/actions of several users/editors, vs. just one?

  But the UCoC doesn't say anything about approving hate speech, etc., if several editors engage in it. – .Raven  .talk 05:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Deadnaming trans individuals when our reliable sources do so is not "hate speech". As above, you're trying to twist a completely irrelevant policy to fit a great wrong you're trying to right. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  You may be missing the point. I used the UCoC's frowning on hate speech as an example of (a) a statement about content which (b) suggests that respecting people – including trans people – is indeed a mission of the project. Otherwise why have that statement?

  Oh wait, are you still denying that the UCoC discusses content decisions? – .Raven  .talk 06:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Oh wait, are you still denying that the UCoC discusses content decisions Sure am. Because it doesn't. It's user conduct, as the title explains and that you seem to keep conveniently ignoring. —Locke Cole • t • c 06:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Addressed above. – .Raven  .talk 07:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  And refuted. Go on. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  A cite/link and verbatim quote of the UCoC is not "refuted" by missing the point. – .Raven  .talk 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I do believe you've missed the point of the UCoC. Or you're being willfully disruptive because of WP:RGW, again. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Addressed above. You're going in circles again. – .Raven  .talk 09:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I see you’re still having problems with words. Hint: you haven’t “addressed” anything. —Locke Cole • t • c 10:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "Hint: you haven’t 'addressed' anything."

  Then why have you replied? – .Raven  .talk 19:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'll try not to reiterate Locke Cole's points, to which I concur in their entirety. But while you're talking about slippery slope fallacies, you are indulging in one yourself: the notion that "hate speech" is synonymous with "any construction that any one person stridently and vocally dislikes." If what you're indeed arguing is that the use of verified birthnames in articles constitutes "hate speech," to the degree that even advocating doing so is hate speech, then you have gone completely over the deep end. Wikipedia is not censored, even to grant fringe viewpoints "safe spaces," and we are not enjoined to accept your characterizations. Ravenswing 06:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Oh geez my reply generated a subthread invoking the UCoC, hate speech, and the use–mention distinction? Someone give me an anti-award for unclarity. I'm having difficulty finding where I claimed that being seen as respecting trans people is Wikipedia's mission (other than right here, in this use–mention distinction). I was juxtaposing it with the idea of respecting dead people's privacy, not movement charters or core content policies.

  I was under the impression that the previous RFC closed with consensus that deadnames are not automatically encyclopaedic, and so I didn't bother to mention that. Most of the time they're trivia, like the identities of important animal companions, or reasons for a divorce, or salary. All facts, all parts of people's lives that impact their story, usually trivia.

  What I'm finding myself in strongest support of in this moment is Deadnames of deceased trans people are not automatically encyclopaedic. If insertion or deletion of a deadname is challenged, discuss it on the article talk page. Once consensus is reached, the topic cannot be reopened for 9+12n months, where n is the number of prior discussions on the topic. Folly Mox (talk) 06:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Why would we do this when it goes against our core, non-negotiable, policy around neutrality? What is the benefit to the project in doing this that isn't just a very well dressed WP:RGW? —Locke Cole • t • c 06:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Well, my proposed policy wording is not intended to be taken seriously. No one votes for algebra. I'm just tired. Mostly it's a restatement of the bit of the previous close reading the former name of a trans or non-binary person is not automatically of encyclopaedic interest, which I guess in your analogy might be a very confusingly dressed WP:TRIVIA? I was under the impression that the present RFC is a follow up to the preceding one, not a close review, but I readily admit having not read this entire conversation. I guess it will be up to the closer how to deal with positions that reject the prior closure. Folly Mox (talk) 07:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "I was under the impression that the present RFC is a follow up to the preceding one, not a close review"

  So was I. The previous RfC's minority appear to have tried to change that. – .Raven  .talk 07:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  In fact, not not only have I not read the full conversation, I've only just now realised this subthread wasn't generated by my initial comment, but by the following one. Oops. Must be bedtime. Folly Mox (talk) 07:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Folly Mox, I think our guidance should just stick to what the close said: Deadnames of deceased trans people are not automatically encyclopedic.

  Using the bounds introduced in the prior RfC (not that I necessarily agree with its outcome), this could mean that adding a deadname should be discouraged in general and should require documentation in multiple IRS that provide SIGCOV on the trans person, but the trans person need not have been notable pre-transition. With this construction, we would only be providing the deadnames of people who are/were widely covered (have 3+ pieces of SIGCOV), whose deadnames would therefore be more likely to be "widely known" already. JoelleJay (talk) 02:46, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "the notion that 'hate speech' is synonymous with 'any construction that any one person stridently and vocally dislikes'."

  Except I neither expressed nor held such a position. I cited the UCoC in reply to the claim that ""... the mission of Wikipedia is not to respect trans people. It is to respect the facts...."". As I said then, "It seems to me this indicates that to respect people (trans or otherwise) is part of the mission of the entire Wikimedia project."

  "Hate speech" is an example of the contrary, emphatically disrespecting people... and the Board frowns on it. – .Raven  .talk 07:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  The UCoC does not say what you think it says, and certainly not how you mean it. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I cite/linked it and quoted it verbatim (copy&paste). Sorry if it doesn't say what you wanted it to. – .Raven  .talk 09:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Same for you. I hope someday you understand what a user conduct policy is. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  This one expects users to conduct themselves toward other people with respect. Even in our article edits. – .Raven  .talk 19:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Even in our article edits. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:42, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. The requirement for in-depth analysis or discussion would imply that for historical figures, the name itself must be discussed and analyzed, rather than simply be used. If a historical figure is consistently referred to in the historical record by a deadname rather than a preferred name, said name should be included. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  If they are consistently referred to by a deadname then they were notable under that name, therefor the deadname would not have to meet the criteria of "discussed and analyzed" to be included. Tekrmn (talk) 08:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - largely along the same lines of reasoning as Chess voices immediately above. There may be some permutation of this proposal that I could support, but the proposed language would create substantial issues for constructing functional content in edge cases--and generate no small number of disputes in the process, I dare say. As worded, the proposal would introduce a standard (and a pretty robust one at that) where the original name itself would have to be subject to considerable coverage: if I read the language correctly, mere usage (even massive usage over decades greatly outweighing the usage of the post-transition name) would not be enough to even warrant mention of the former name, if the name itself was not subject to significant coverage--a standard that is almost never going to be met. Now, even if I am reading that language incorrectly and imputing a meaning not intended, or exaggerating the intended proposed burden, it's certainly at least a probable interpretation likely to be embraced by a non-trivial number of editors, giving rise to potential editorial disputes.
  In either event, bluntly, it's not a workable standard and loses sight of our purpose here, which is to construct accessible and informative encyeclopedic prose, not to affirm the individual's rights to self-determination as the primary goal of our prose, in every way and in every instance. Don't get me wrong, to the extent we can accomplish the latter without compromising the former, there is no excuse not to. Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where I think the proposed approach would create singificant possibility in favouring the latter over the former quite regularly in the case of relevant articles. Putting aside for the moment the abstractions involved in trying to determine whether a deadname is valuable encyclopedic content as an 'a priori' matter, there's this simple detail alone that makes its inclusion of paramount utility to our readers: many of our readers will not, in the case of a particular subject, want to make Wikipedia the last stop for their research about a given biographical subject. If we make a knowing, purposeful decision to hide from them a key piece of context for that would aid them in further research, even in cases where we know the single most central search term they should be using to find the vast majority of sources pertaining to that subject, we have simply lost sight of our priorities as authors of the world's most turned-to encyclopedia.
  Now, let me qualify further, that I do think this comes down to an issue of WP:WEIGHT. I can well see a vast number of cases where the deadname is simply not WP:DUE, and not only can I imagine myself !voting as such in a large number of cases, I'd go further to saying I hope we see more discussions making that argument: there are probably lots of articles already that could benefit from it. However, that's actually just additonal argument for why this change is not advisable: the benefit it would confer in unambigous cases is already to be found in other policies, whereas this proposal only brings not just potential for excising content highly useful to the reader, but introduces additional ambiguity/weighing of competing factors into the editorial process, and would be a lightning rod for further disputes in an area already highly prone to them. Again, there's probably a version of this I can get behind, but the proposal here is so overbroad and inartfully constructed that I can't say that I find it advisable, even as someone who could most assuredly stand to see deadnames in a fewer number of articles where they serve little purpose. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 05:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per @Only in death, BilledMammal, and JoelleJay: because this is too restrictive to make any allowance for the mention of content in articles, and per WP:NNC notability should not be a factor for content within articles anyway. Huggums537 (talk) 11:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Huggers537 and Some1, among others. While neutrally phrased, in practice it's an impossible bar to meet. Encyclopedic value of a fact is something to be worked out on individual article talk pages.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• One problem is that I don’t think we CAN split the difference between option 2 (“Sometimes”) and option 3 (“Never”) - because anything more than “Never” IS “Sometimes”. Even “rarely” is “sometimes”. Blueboar (talk) 21:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  But +5 times splits the difference between +0 times and +10 times. In other words, reduces how often is "sometimes". – .Raven  .talk 21:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Option 2 wasn't just "sometimes" though, it was a fairly permissive sometimes based on principle of least astonishment. This is a more restrictive sometimes, and as you can see it's getting about 50% support. Hopefully we can find a Goldilocks wording at some point. Loki (talk) 01:08, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think we probably can, but nothing that's going to sail through. There are members of the opposition who are going to oppose any additional restriction, so the question will be whether we can find a version that satisfies the remaining, I'd estimate, 65-75% of editors. I think the next thin we'll have to seriously gauge is the community's appetite for another RFC ... though, of course, if nothing is discovered, it'll just come down to relatively repetitive article-by-article discussions that will likely entail RFCs. If that ends up being the case, I'll sort of regret that option 2 wasn't adopted as a clear consensus over the options for no change / always, because I think "consideration of the majority of reliable sources" provides at least some guidance that's both (1) not nothing and (2) workable.)--Jerome Frank Disciple 22:13, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think Jerome has hit the nail on the head in two respects here: 1) as one of those people who is not per se opposed to a change to the the policy in this area, but merely concerned about the particular proposed wording here (and I don't know if we are as numerous as 75%, but we are surely non-negligible in terms of a possible consensus), I honestly don't think the loggerheads here is particularly unsurmountable.

  On the other hand, I do think there is a mounting perception that the advocacy for such a change is being pushed forward more doggedly than is ideal at the moment. To give you the perspective of just one community member, despite the fact that I don't actively involve myself in these areas, I've quite lost track of the number of times I've been asked to give feedback on some variation of this proposal, or in some related local or behavioural discussion, in recent months. Between getting pinged back to the newest version of the same discussion, or bot RfC notices, or just being aware of the discussions because of their massive footprint, there seems to always be an ongoing new proposal, typically pushed by the same very select group of editors, who understandably do not want to let this matter go without eeking out as much change as possible, but who don't seem to realize that sometimes restraint really is the better part of valor here. I think this RfC in particular, coming so hot on the heels of the previous one, could really have benefitted from a few more weeks at least (and probably ideally an extra month or two). Not only would that have allowed for some more robust workshopping of the wording, but also would have given the community time to ruminate, both of which I think could have made a substantial difference in the reception here. I'd like to submit to the hardest core of the advocacy of a change in policy here that WP:NORUSH applies at least as much to policy as to local editorial issues. I know that is the last thing people want to hear when they feel they are on the right side of fair representation, but I think that's only all the more reason to be methodical. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• As discussed in #Thinking through the difficulties, I think a version which includes the mention of the deadname further down the article as an example, or some wording which makes it clearer that the deadname's preferred position is not always the lede would be better. Otherwise, I'm neutral on the proposal – "in-depth analysis" feels like too strong of wording to me. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:06, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as worded. In line with what others' have said, "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name" is essentially requiring a GNG-like bar to be met for including a single fact in an article. While examples of this do exist, rarely is something as bland as the name/name change itself the subject of intensive coverage. I also oppose on principle that "deceased trans or non-binary person" should be treated differently than other people with regards' to their names. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:14, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose the current wording per JoelleJay, Indy beetle, and others, but I feel that Trystan's alternative wording is more reasonable and less restrictive, and I'd weakly support that. VickKiang (talk) 05:15, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support in principle, but I'd prefer something probably closer to Trystan's wording. Ideally, we would prefer users to use their common sense, but given the wider culture war bullshit, we do need some guidance to prevent people from ruleslawyering in irrelevant content. Sceptre (talk) 20:43, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I think what the rule is trying to dictate is generally the right thing but is this actually a problem that needs to be solved? What are the cases where the lack of this new rule has caused issues? Springee (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  So there's quite a few articles where this has caused issues that I'm aware of, including one that's just started that I'm not going to link to until it's resolved.

  One that's currently resolved is Brianna Ghey. She was a trans teen from the UK who was killed earlier this year. About two days after her death, The Times published her former name by adding it when updating one of their initial pieces of reporting about the killing. This was swiftly condemned nationally and internationally, and the paper removed it again within the day, but archive copies of that article still exist. Thankfully with the exception of the generally unreliable Daily Mail who published the former name at the same time as The Times, no other reliable UK newspapers published her former name. A couple of editors tried to insert the former name into the article, and while we're currently able to keep it out per a consensus around BDP, that will expire at some point in the future. Ghey is a case where the former name is absolutely unnecessary to understand any of the relevant facts about her life or the circumstances that surrounded her killing. Like with the examples below we could, once BDP expires form a new consensus on the spirit of GENDERID and the application of IAR, but that is an incredibly high barrier for exclusion and the other recent RfC left us with a consensus that it should instead be the barrier for inclusion that should be high as there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest.

  Another example is Sophie Xeon. In life, Sophie didn't become notable until after she had changed her name, and the second paragraph of GENDERID unambiguously applied. However in May of this year, two years and 39 days after she died and just outside the maximum BDP period, an editor added her former name to the article. Currently there is somewhat of a mixed IAR/DUE consensus that inclusion of her former name is both undue and unwarranted per the spirit of the second paragraph of GENDERID.

  Leelah Alcorn is another example. She died by suicide back in 2014, and there's been more than a few instances over the intervening period where editors have tried to insert her former name into the article. Like the other cases, Alcorn was never notable under her former name and were she alive the second paragraph of GENDERID would unambiguously apply. Per the talk page and archives, inclusion of the name has been discussed 10 times, with the current local consensus that inclusion of the name is not necessary or warranted per the spirit of GENDERID.

  While this change, or any other change along similar lines, wont in and of itself prevent good or bad faith additions of a non-notable former name of a deceased trans or non-binary person, it will make it clearer for all involved the circumstances where inclusion is or is not warranted. It will also close an avenue for tendentious wikilawyering by bad faith editors on the spirit versus the letter of GENDERID by providing much needed clarity that makes application of IAR not necessary. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:35, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  Seems like UNDUE would be sufficient in those cases. Also, that someone tried to insert and consensus was against in the end is not what I would consider to be a problem. If we are going to make a new rule I think the level of problem needs to be better established first. Springee (talk) 17:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  the point is that UNDUE is not proving to be sufficient in those cases. I also think that the idea of creating guidelines like this is to codify what consensus finds most often on individual articles in order to have something to prevent rehashing the same long and contentious discussions every time a trans person dies. Tekrmn (talk) 17:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  On UNDUE, kinda yes, but UNDUE is primarily dealing with minority viewpoints and names aren't typically a viewpoint. This is instead a minor aspect, so BALASP is the policy point of more relevance here. The purpose of this proposal is to provide specific guidance on how to apply policy points like BALASP while taking into account the consensus of the previous RfC.

  Also, that someone tried to insert and consensus was against in the end is not what I would consider to be a problem. Respectfully, I think you're focusing too closely on the end result, and not what lead to that result. In the cases of Xeon and particularly Alcorn, there have been multiple lengthy and sometimes contentious discussions on the inclusion or exclusion of the former name, in no small part because there is a lack of clear guidance in this area of deceased individuals.

  As I said previously, there are quite a few other articles that I could cite here for where the lack of guidance has been a problem, however I don't want to make this already lengthy discussion even longer which is why I focused on those three cases.

  This is a rather longstanding recognised problem. Back in August 2021 there was an RfC on this same point of the non-notable former names of deceased trans and non-binary people. Like the other recent RfC that one was closed with no consensus for one of the provided options, due to the three mutually exclusive options making it harder for any consensus to emerge. And as with the recent RfC, the three closers made a recommendation that a subsequent discussion/RfC be held to find consensus on a narrow framing. Unfortunately that never happened, and we were left with the current lack of guidance despite the expressed need for it. As I didn't want the situation, where we had an RfC that came with the recommendation for some sort of guidance following a narrowly framed discussion/RfC, to reoccur, I made this proposal.

  To put a question back to you, how can we establish the need for guidance in this area, if the now two RfCs that came with recommendations for guidance are not enough? Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that most of the time when we say UNDUE we mean BALASP. At this point I almost feel like the terms should be swapped. I think the way you establish the need is you wait until we have a number of noticeboard discussions about this, a number of unresolved disputes etc. I see this as a bit like the issue I've seen at RSN/RSP. Often we see someone who starts a thread saying we need to deprecate a source or add a source to the RSP list as unreliable etc. Take the example of a bloggy commentary site. Someone asks if "Just4Facts" should be deprecated because it's some type of terrible source (just in case there is a Just4Facts, I'm making it up as an example). A search of RSN shows no prior mentions. Looking at where used we find a few examples were it is referenced in something like ABOUTSELF and one case where a new editor tried, unsuccessfully to add it to an article. That isn't sufficient to justify doing anything. The system already has the issue covered. We should wait to change the rules until we see that the existing systems don't work. If the end result after the existing system does it's thing is the correct answer then I don't see the need for a change at this time. Also, not getting the answer we want (and I'm saying this only in a general sense) doesn't mean the system isn't working. Springee (talk) 18:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose expansion of bad policy. Not opposed to a policy on name changes in general. But name changes of trans people should not be treated differently from other name changes. Adoring nanny (talk) 10:59, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  Why? Trans people's former names are usually qualitatively different to the former names of cis people (see deadnaming and many other explanations throughout this discussion). Thryduulf (talk) 11:27, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  One-size-fits-all policies are a poor way to handle "usually" differences. For example, the mass-shooter whose case led up to this RfC used both "Audrey" and "Aiden", including in the last known message this person sent[2]. And what about the other direction? A person who is not trans might hate a previous name, for whatever reason. Adoring nanny (talk) 04:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Your first example, one who continues to use both names, thereby expresses a preference for using both... and our also using both would "reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification" per MOS:GENDERID. That came up on Talk:Eddie Izzard, in fact, since (now) Suzy still uses "Eddie" as a stagename.

  Your "other direction... A person who is not trans" is addressed neither by MOS:GENDERID as it stands nor by this proposed amendment, thus is unaffected either way. You could certainly introduce another RfC to address them. – .Raven  .talk 06:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  InedibleHulk was blocked for a year for using unapproved pronouns for Hale. So yes, I read the policy the same way you do, but that's not how it's interpreted. And the fact that someone is blocked for a year for using unapproved pronouns is itself part of the reason I don't want to see this policy expanded. Adoring nanny (talk) 08:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  InedibleHulk's block seems to have involved more issues than just that.

  Simple errors are generally not met with draconian measures. – .Raven  .talk 10:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  All of it, other than the last point in the complaint, comes down to MOS:GENDERID. Yes IH did it on purpose. But the bottom line is that IH got the block for, in the view of the admins, not following this policy. Furthermore, as you yourself said above, IH was following a plain reading of the policy, which would allow either pronoun, per Hale's last known message. The entire thing is unbelievably draconian and, in my opinion, is evidence the policy should not be expanded. You are welcome to disagree with any of the above. But please not in my section of this survey. The bludgeon of me is more than sufficient. Thanks. Adoring nanny (talk) 10:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name" sounds like total nonsense and such a poor wording can be easily used for wikilawyering against each and every instance of former name's mention. --Cavarrone 06:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  I would interpret that phrasing as saying, at least, "don't go hastily posting deadnames without real discussion". – .Raven  .talk 06:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Surely that would be a wrong interpretation – it's "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources", not discussion among Wikipedia editors. EddieHugh (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  You're right — that longer quote definitely refers to off-wiki analysis and discussion — and I inattentively parsed just the meaning of only the shorter quoted phrase. So then let me note that the example was given of Gloria Hemingway and how her prior name was featured in such off-wiki coverage (not merely yellow-sheet gossip rags), which doesn't sound so much like "total nonsense."

  Also, the second option appears, "... or if they were notable prior to transitioning." — which unfortunately seems to have sparked some confusion about does-that-mean-the name-or-the-person-was-"notable"?, but which I think clearly means the person under that prior name. – .Raven  .talk 20:44, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose You wouldn't typically find in-depth coverage of a name itself, not just for trans people but for anybody. I'm thinking like...people who immigrated and modified their surname to be less like a marginalized group, or freed slaves who had to pick a surname because they didn't have one. But a given name doesn't have much to explore "in-depth" in almost any circumstance. The best you're going to get is something like a patronym or some kind of other namesake. Given names are fairly random, and have more to do with trends than anything else. This wording would put you in a spot where you have an article for Elliot Page or Caitlyn Jenner and somebody says "here's 1,000 sources using the name" and somebody replies "they don't examine the name in-depth". GMG^talk 11:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  I would formulate it as: “In-depth discussion of the subject, using the pre-transition name while doing so.” This would allow us to omit sources that just mention the deadname in passing, but also base what we do on sources. Blueboar (talk) 12:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  allow us to omit sources that just mention the deadname in passing — Omitting sources that don't follow our rules, then claiming that our rules follow the sources (but only the ones that comply with our rules) - that seems to be circular reasoning. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with Mitch since it is just a long-winded way of saying the same thing over again because the underlying idea of omit sources that just mention the deadname in passing really just amounts to "find in-depth coverage of a name itself" so it really changes nothing just formulates the words to be more long winded by adding some extra distracting stuff to do with the subject that totally isn't related to what you are actually doing. Huggums537 (talk) 12:56, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  No? We have coverage of Eliiot Page and Caitlyn Jenner because there is depth of coverage about them under their previous name. But it covers the person and not the name. This kind of thing has to be specific because wikilawyering exists and half the people here speak English as a second language. GMG^talk 13:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Ok, maybe I could see that. I guess it was just the underlying idea that was bothering me... Huggums537 (talk) 13:21, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Passing mentions normally don't mean anything anyway, unless you get to niche areas like sports or porn. And...IIRC...that's why we repealed most or all of the guidance for porn. I wish we could do the same for sports. GMG^talk 12:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if any of this means anything... Huggums537 (talk) 13:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  That's between you and your therapist. This post sponsored by BetterHelp. Don't forget to like and subscribe. GMG^talk 13:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Hah! Huggums537 (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think I'm cool with that. It's mostly how we do things already. GMG^talk 12:54, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - Can I point out that the manual of style really ought to only be about style? Using the MOS to decide content, particularly using it to establish an effective ban on a particular kind of content, is definitely not what it should be for - for that, you need to change policy (particularly, WP:NOTCENSORED). Even accepting that a grey area exists between style and content, there is no question at all that whether or not to include a previous name of an individual is a content issue and not at all one of style. FOARP (talk) 12:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed, this also closely mirrors what @Huggums537 said above regarding WP:POLICYFORK concerns (in your comment, the apparent conflict with WP:NOTCENSORED; in the prior case, the conflict with WP:NNC, in my case, the conflict with WP:NPOV/WP:DUE). Shoehorning this into the MOS was a bad idea from the start, trying to expand that is just doubling down on a bad idea. —Locke Cole • t • c 15:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  You certainly can point out whatever you think any page "really ought to only be about". Your opinion, taken with others, goes into the mix from which consensus (or "no consensus") is derived. But may I point you to a parallel from a somewhat different field than ours? The Associated Press Stylebook "... offers a basic reference to American English grammar, punctuation, and principles of reporting, including many definitions and rules for usage as well as styles for capitalization, abbreviation, spelling, and numerals." [emphasis added]  For instance, the current online version has – [excerpted] –

  deadnaming The practice, widely considered insensitive, offensive or damaging, of referring to transgender people who have changed their name by the name they used before their transition. Use a person’s previous name or pre-transition image only if required to understand the news or if requested by the person. [...]
  Deadnaming a transgender person, even posthumously in obituaries or other coverage, is often considered disrespectful to the deceased, their survivors and any transgender people.
  In the AP, use of a transgender person’s previous name must be approved by managers. [...]

  Note that we list the Associated Press as a generally reliable source, and we have often cited its reporting. – .Raven  .talk 16:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Comparing a press style guide to an online encyclopedia style guide is weird. Huggums537 (talk) 16:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  It addresses the comment on what a stylebook, or manual of style, 'ought to only be about'. – .Raven  .talk 16:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  For a "...different field than ours" according to yourself. Huggums537 (talk) 16:21, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, I did say that, right up front. And Wikipedia is not news. But we do often write articles related to current events and people-in-the-news, citing news agencies as our reliable sources. Therefore it befits our manual of style, just like press stylebooks, to discuss how these events and people should be covered, at the very least for the sake of consistency of output. – .Raven  .talk 17:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  Just to give some history of why this is discussed in MOS… originally it simply dealt with which PRONOUNS to use (which was considered a STYLE issue). Over time it suffered from instruction creep and grew to include what NAMES to use (which is, arguably a content issue). Blueboar (talk) 18:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  The same process may have happened with press stylebooks, for all I know. MOS:GENDERID quite appropriately addresses how  we refer to people (in gender-identification situations); and both pronouns and names imply gender identification. If our language only provided genderless or unisex pronouns (just "they", no "he" or "she") and names ("Harper", "Morgan", "Robin", etc.), this might not even be an issue. But that's not the case, so here we are. – .Raven  .talk 20:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  How we address trans people is a completely different subject to whether we include the relevant information of what their name was at birth. One is a style issue, similar to titles and the use of first name/last name, the other clearly falls within content and is therefore about policy.

  AP's style guide (which is of limited relevance as this is an encyclopaedia with an explicit separation between style and policy, not a news business with a management structure) is also only referring to how the subject is addressed, not placing an effective bar on mentioning their birth-name. It permits including their original name "if required to understand the news", but this is a biography where, whilst nothing is of automatic encyclopaedic interest, it is very likely to be relevant information as changing a name is typically a significant life-event. There is no need to seek approval in Wikipedia - we edit boldly. FOARP (talk) 14:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  Style affects content. We don't "address" anyone in encyclopedia articles (no "Dear Reader, you want to know about...."); we discuss people in third rather than second person. Choosing third-person singular pronouns is a suitable topic for a style manual. Names may likewise indicate gender. Thus MOS:GENDERID also covers them. As the essay section WP:GENDERID#Self-identification explains:

  "We accept the person's latest identification of their gender, as documented in reliable sources, at face value. To do otherwise — to refer to transgender or non-binary/genderqueer people by names or pronouns which disregard their gender identities, i.e. to misgender them — is deeply offensive and causes harm."

  – .Raven  .talk 15:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  Style affects content. We don't "address" anyone in encyclopedia articles... You may wish to give MOS:PEOPLETITLES and MOS:SURNAME a read sometime. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:48, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  You'd said "How we address trans people...." — which to me conveys speaking/writing to them; at which point we'd use the ungendered second-person pronoun "you", and titles like Ms. or Mr. or Dr. etc. [surname]. This is different from speaking/writing about them (referring to them), using third-person pronouns.

  address: to call someone a particular name or title when you speak to them.

  address someone as/by something:

  The prince should be addressed as ‘Sir’ at all times.

  We were all addressed by surname.

    – .Raven  .talk 00:59, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Let us note here @.Raven that you distinguish between "addressing" and "referring" here, yet this proposal is about neither - it is about preventing even simply stating what their previous name was. "X was called Y until they changed their name in DATE" is neither referring not addressing to the person as "Y". FOARP (talk) 09:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think FOARP raises a good point: content guidance should not be in our MOS. We have WP:PAG for content decisions (the big three obviously being WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR; with WP:BLP and a number of other guidelines going deeper into the weeds for topics that need more nuance). I'd support excising content guidance out of MOS:GENDERID and either adding it to an existing WP:PAG that is more appropriate, or creating a guideline or policy (and I say this as someone generally opposed to the concept altogether, I'd support this for the sake of getting rules out of places they don't belong in). —Locke Cole • t • c 19:42, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  > "... with WP:BLP and a number of other guidelines..."

  At the top of that page is a box saying:

  "This page documents an English Wikipedia policy."

  – .Raven  .talk 01:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with @FOARP, and I think Locke was talking about the WP:Core content policies we have which do not include guidelines like notability or MOS for deciding content issues. Huggums537 (talk) 13:51, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  The list of content policies in actual policy can be seen here. Huggums537 (talk) 14:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yes indeed. What's the second item listed there? WP:BLP. – .Raven  .talk 15:16, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Well, first of all they are just arbitrarily listed in alphabetical order so it would not matter if it was first on the list, and there is a box to the right dividing the content policies into the correct categories, but secondly what is your point anyway? Huggums537 (talk) 15:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, and? —Locke Cole • t • c 16:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  I tend to agree with FOARP that MoS is not where this guidance should reside. However, we can always move the guidance after the fact. Indeed, considering the amount of community energy formulating these standards has taken--the amount of contention and individual points of consensus--it arguably should have it's own namespace as a formal guideline. That said, the most important thing to my mind is that the actual debate about the standards/language themselves is conducted as visibly and transparently as possible, with broad community involvement. Given the fact that generally the most recent discussions have taken place here at the pump addresses my biggest concerns about procedure and formalities. It's entirely possible that some of earlier GENDERID discussions that occurred in more localized corners of the style pages may have been impacted by not having the scrutiny they should have, but even assuming that was so, it hasn't been the case for a while.

  That said, I do think, to be perfectly pro forma at this juncture, that if/when the community feels the policy language is tight (and stable) enough to move it to a guideline page, we should have a formal !vote about just that. No effort at consensus on this issue should be made as a tangential sidenote to some other discussion. This decisions should definetly be validated by clear community support in it's own right, since the mere act of labelling it a guideline will give it stronger effect--well, technically speaking anyway: people tend to be so firm in their views on GENDERID that, MoS language or not, we can generally expect peiople to try to enforce it like a guideline. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 07:35, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support with Thryduulf's wording (i.e. we don't use the deadname unless the person was already notable while using the deadname, which is just common sense). Elemimele (talk) 08:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, I don't like the wiggle room in "or if they were notable prior to transitioning." and would prefer that "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources" be the only path to inclusion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  I'm curious what you think that would look like in practice? Would someone like Elliot Page not have their deadname in their article? I also want to point out that more restrictive proposals did not receive consensus, so if your opinion is that we should restrict the use of deadnames more than we are now then I think this proposal is sort of the lesser of two evils. Tekrmn (talk) 00:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Tekrmn: I am under the impression that Elliot Page's transition was the subject of oceans of press which included a LARGE amount of "in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources." If that is true then you would appear to know the answer to your question. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:26, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  How many of those sources actually analyze or discuss the name “Ellen” (or the name “Elliot”, for that matter)? Do they discuss the derivation of the name? Equivalents in other languages? The popularity of the name “Ellen” through the years? That would be “in-depth analysis or discussion of the NAME, and I doubt any of the sources discussing Page’s transition go into that sort of detail.

  What I think you are talking about is something else… discussion and analysis of Page’s transition, and the fact that Page changed names due to that transition. That isn’t discussion of the NAME… it’s discussion of the person who used/uses the name. Blueboar (talk) 19:35, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think your argument is exactly why most opposes are against this proposal. That last sentence should be more than enough to include the mere mention of a name, and what you wrote above that is the impossible hurdle opposes are talking about that the proposal is presenting for us to overcome. Huggums537 (talk) 21:34, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  as blueboar addressed below, there are different ways to interpret the wording in this proposal and not all of them would apply to Elliot Page if we excluded the notability piece. we already know from the previous RFC that being as restrictive as you have suggested will not allow us to create any kind of guidance on where it is and is not appropriate to use the deadnames of deceased trans people, leaving trans people to be deadnamed in their wikipedia articles when they die. if you want to oppose this proposal then go for it, I'm just pointing out that doing so is in direct conflict with preventing deadnaming, which seemed to be your goal. Tekrmn (talk) 22:50, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  That line is there to mirror the standards for living trans people: we don't want to take out someone's deadname after they're dead, that standard should be strictly weaker than the standard for living trans people. Loki (talk) 01:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• The listing misrepresents the consensus from the previous survey and I oppose the proposal. The starting point should be that if someone was discussed in reliable sources under a name, then they were notable under that name. There is no risk of harm of the sort that would arise when discussing a living person. The proposal sets the bar much too high. Stifle (talk) 07:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Some1, Trystan and BilledMammal. There is no material change from the earlier proposal in an RfC a month or so ago, nor the one before that. Closers of the first RfC referred to the commonly voiced suggestion that an exception to the people who have recently died [my emph.] and indeterminate period beyond the date of death clauses be implemented, with some arbitrarily large number of years after death written into policy. I find it bizarre they either ignore or consciously refuse the notion of incorporating an extended period after death into their proposal. It is likely to gather far greater support than yet more wordings with infinitesimal changes in emphasis from preceding proposals but no significant material difference. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:14, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support per Aquillion and Maddy from Celeste, or with Thryduulf's wording Softlemonades (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per @Ravenswing and @North8000, among others. As many others have said, creating a GNG-like bar for the inclusion of one or two words is extreme and a case study of WP:CREEP. If there is disagreement, consensus can be reached on the talk page. We don't need policies for every intricity of writing an encyclopedia. @GRuban said exactly what I've been thinking in their !vote: We are first an encyclopedia, and try to preserve and disseminate knowledge. We do have a strong secondary goal of minimizing harm. Somebody's former name was, at some point, a part of their life, and should still be included, provided the wording is sensible and states the facts from a neutral point of view. Obviously, there are concerns over using deadnames in articles, around potential harm and privacy concerns. However, as Stifle said, these concerns are significantly reduced when the subject is dead. Furthermore, in depth analysis or discussion is a ridiculously high bar to set. The talk page is there for a reason. Again, we don't need blanket policies on every intricity of writing an encyclopedia.(added 12 July) I strongly oppose what Bluerasberry said (Wikipedia's style guide should bend, comply, and conform to the wishes of communities who assert wishes for how they want to be represented.) No! Wikipedia is a neutral encylopedia, and shouldn't be forced to comply [...] and conform with what a community wants. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 22:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  Also per Adumbrativus. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 15:15, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• Pinged here for participating in the last RfC. Oppose because the requirement for in-depth analysis or discussion is for all intents and purposes a veto of NPOV. RAN1 (talk) 23:31, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  How so? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 12:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

  The proposal is intended to more fully reflect the wishes and POV of trans people who want to erase their former names: and several of the proponents say as much. Leaving trans folks' perceived wishes aside, why should we have a different, higher standard for including a dead name than for including any other childhood fact which may or may not remain true of the subject in adulthood? 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 15:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. I would support simply deleting the word "living" from the entirety of MOS:GENDERID, leaving us with a common standard to which (as usual) BLP are held extremely closely. This would avoid the definite confusion and potential mandatory-edit-on-death absurdity resulting from differing deadname notability standards for living and dead persons. If enacted, however, I would Support User:Thryduulf's proposed amendment. Thepsyborg (talk) 14:31, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

  the previous RFC linked at the top this proposal had that as one of the options and it did not reach consensus. this proposal is an attempt to bridge the gap between that option and an option that relied on PLA for inclusion of deadnames. Tekrmn (talk) 16:36, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

• Conditional support under the condition that we modify the exact terminology to generally reliable sources or similar. in-depth analysis is basically WP:CREEP and highly subjective. --qedk (t 愛 c) 21:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. in-depth analysis or discussion of the name is an impossibly high bar. I'll note that (per BilledMammal) despite Gloria Hemingway being listed as an example, she does not actually meet that bar. There's not really in-depth analysis of Gloria Hemingway's former name in reliable sources, so it should actually be excluded under this guideline. There'd probably be close to zero trans people who meet that bar. I think probably Public Universal Friend would qualify, but that might be about it. Endwise (talk) 03:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support. If a deadname/former name is not published when a trans person is alive, then it should stay unpublished when the person is dead - common human decency doesn't stop when someone dies. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 05:47, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

  But this isn't about the deadname being just published- it's about that name being subject to in-depth analysis or discussion. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 13:02, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, I was going to say if the name wasn't published at all we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. because it would just simply be unsourced material at that point. I would ask the closer to consider not counting this vote since statements showing no understanding of the matter should be discarded per WP:DISCARD. Huggums537 (talk) 13:34, 19 July 2023 (UTC) I just realized they might have only been talking about the name being published on Wikipedia, but still that isn't all this is about though. Updated on 13:45, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (GENDERID addition)

• Notified WikiProjects LGBT Studies, and Biography. Notified WT:MOSBIO. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

  Any thought about pinging people who participated in the last RFC? Or posting to WP:CENT like the last one? Since this RFC is clearly a continuation of that one I feel like it'd be appropriate. Loki (talk) 04:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think posting to CENT is a good idea, and I have no objections to pinging people (although preferably only those who haven't yet commented in this RFC). Thryduulf (talk) 10:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Posted to CENT. Pinging prior optionTypo fixed—I did not just ping the option 2 supporters; sorry for the miscommunication! topic 2 !voters who have not !voted here (trying not to ping those who have already participated, apologies if I fail on that front) @Skyerise, Bilorv, Starship.paint, Ineffablebookkeeper, Tekrmn, DanielRigal, RoxySaunders, Yasslaywikia, HTGS, Stwalkerster, BilledMammal, Hatman31, 3mi1y, Mitch Ames, Jayron32, Trovatore, ModernDayTrilobite, Springee, Voorts, Spy-cicle, Ficaia, Stifle, MJL, MarijnFlorence, A Tree In A Box, Anomie, WhatamIdoing, CoffeeCrumbs, Nosebagbear, SmallJarsWithGreenLabels, Chaotic Enby, Why? I Ask, Ser!, Thesavagenorwegian, XOR'easter, RAN1, Rutebega, GRuban, Casualdejekyll, and TheCatalyst31:@Herostratus, Locke Cole, Adumbrativus, Rab V, CandyScythe, Lights and freedom, Sceptre, Gnomingstuff, Ad Orientem, -sche, LilianaUwU, Jc3s5h, Brainulator9, Blindlynx, Gobonobo, Tryptofish, Bastun, XAM2175, Shibbolethink, Jamesday, Funcrunch, Horse Eye's Back, Cambial Yellowing, Tol, Nerd1a4i, SWinxy, AquilaFasciata, Aquillion, Licks-rocks, EddieHugh, GreenComputer, SportingFlyer, and Patar knight:--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Do you mean question 2 rather than option 2? Loki (talk) 18:53, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, absolutely—sorry about that.--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  FWIW, I didn't receive a ping from this; IIRC there is a limit to how many users can be pinged at once, so that may be why. -sche (talk) 04:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah. The message that Jerome typed had 73 usernames in it. According to WP:MENTION the limit is 50 per edit. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Per edit, not per ping template... as Jerome carefully used two ping templates, one with 40 names, one with 33 (note the :@ before Herostratus, which was at the break).
  Corrective ping: @LilianaUwU, Jc3s5h, Brainulator9, Blindlynx, Gobonobo, Tryptofish, Bastun, XAM2175, Shibbolethink, Jamesday, Funcrunch, Horse Eye's Back, Cambial Yellowing, Tol, Nerd1a4i, SWinxy, AquilaFasciata, Aquillion, Licks-rocks, EddieHugh, GreenComputer, SportingFlyer, and Patar knight: Please see Jerome's comment above. – .Raven  .talk 04:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, it isn't that simple to correct; it doesn't send the ping to the first fifty names listed in the post - -sche was #50 and I was #11, and neither of us received the initial ping. BilledMammal (talk) 05:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Here comes another try: @Skyerise, Bilorv, Starship.paint, Ineffablebookkeeper, Tekrmn, DanielRigal, RoxySaunders, Yasslaywikia, HTGS, Stwalkerster, BilledMammal, Hatman31, 3mi1y, Mitch Ames, Jayron32, Trovatore, ModernDayTrilobite, Springee, Voorts, Spy-cicle, Ficaia, Stifle, MJL, MarijnFlorence, A Tree In A Box, Anomie, WhatamIdoing, CoffeeCrumbs, Nosebagbear, SmallJarsWithGreenLabels, Chaotic Enby, Why? I Ask, Ser!, Thesavagenorwegian, XOR'easter, RAN1, Rutebega, GRuban, Casualdejekyll, and TheCatalyst31: Please see Jerome's comment upthread. – .Raven  .talk 06:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Herostratus, Locke Cole, Adumbrativus, Rab V, CandyScythe, Lights and freedom, Sceptre, Gnomingstuff, Ad Orientem, and -sche: Please see Jerome's comment upthread. – .Raven  .talk 06:42, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Alright. Now what do I do? Herostratus (talk) 01:46, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Herostratus: There's an ongoing RfC here, following up the grey area left by the prior RfC. We just wanted to notify that RfC's participants (like you), so you can – if you wish – participate. – .Raven  .talk 01:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal and -sche: I apologize to both of you and all users who didn't get a ping—after all that work, nothing! @.Raven correctly clocked it: I mistakenly thought the 50-cap was related to the ping template, not the alert-system generally, so I thought I was safe using two ping templates. (Also thanks to .Raven for fixing my error!)--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Got this, I also did not get the original ping. Gnomingstuff (talk) 14:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  I don't recall getting any pings here, either. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 01:50, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  Is there a reason not to notify all the participants of the first RfC? I count around 20 people who participated in other RfC 1 proposals or who commented but didn't !vote in proposal 2. @Alaexis, Aza24, BrxBrx, Chess, Cwater1, Folly Mox, Indy beetle, Kurtis, Lee Vilenski, NatGertler, Ravenswing, Shells-shells, Skarmory, Snow Rise, TrangaBellam, TulsaPoliticsFan, and UndercoverClassicist:. JoelleJay (talk) 21:29, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  i am too tired, and too bound up by the reality that the trans individuals I know have widely different relationships to the names that they used pre-public transition to wade through all the text that's here now and try to nuance it out. But thanks for thinking of me. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:58, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

• Question… wouldn’t having “in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources” be (itself) an indication that the person was considered “notable prior to transitioning”? Why else would the source discuss it? Blueboar (talk) 11:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Off the top of my head, in good faith it could be discussed in the context of names, or of name changes (e.g. an in-depth article about people called "Monica" and why they chose or didn't choose to change their name to or from that). There are also several ways it could be used in bad faith to out and/or attack someone. There are probably other ways too. Thryduulf (talk) 16:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  So the consensus of the just closed RfC is that the former names of trans and non-binary individuals are not considered to be automatically of encyclopaedic interest. There has to be something about the name change that raises it above being a minor aspect of the person's fuller life story. For example, is there a reason why the person picked the name? Was it in honour of or to remember a friend or relative? Is there a deeper meaning behind the name that links in to other aspects of the person's life? Does it tie into their spirituality, religion, or cultural background in some meaningful way?

  As for why the bar is high (and this is as much a reply to Trystan as Blueboar), I'd like to draw attention to a side discussion on Barkeep49's talk page, from just after the close of the last RfC. Barkeep49 said The way I was going to handle the near, but not quite reached, consensus for option 3 (what SFR is calling 2.8) was by saying that 3 had consensus, but by footnote or other mitigating language the not completely absolute nature of that consensus should be noted. By my reading, and that of the RfC's closer, that is setting the bar higher than just discussion of the name in high quality sources. There needs to be a depth to the discussion, in order to adequately reflect just how high a bar for inclusion the current consensus is. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC) Note, I got this for example bit backwards. We're discussing why we should include the old name, not the new one. Sorry. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  While I definitely said what is quoted here, I'm having trouble parsing that is setting the bar higher than just discussion of the name in high quality sources. Namely whether my comment is being used to support Sideswipe or whether Sideswip is criticizing my comment. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:06, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  For clarity, I'm not criticising your comment. I think it's a good and fair reading of the consensus that exists from the previous RfC. I'm simply using an interpretation of your comment to explain why the proposal's barrier for inclusion is set high. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:29, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  If indeed the individual had been notable under the prior name (before or after physically transitioning), surely that could be established by usual measures of notability, without our needing to state more? LOW-quality sources (e.g. yellow-sheet journalism, "scandal rags") are generally not accepted as RS for that, are they? – .Raven  .talk 07:21, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "There has to be something about the name change that raises it above being a minor aspect of the person's fuller life story." – Umm, that would be a matter of the new name, not the old one, so not affect notability of the old name. Just as, if there's nothing about the name change that raises it, etc., it still won't affect the old name's notability at all.
  Chelsea Manning had... notoriety?... under her old name; it was in worldwide news, it will always be notable. Why she chose "Chelsea" doesn't matter, even if she earns fame for a different reason under that name. But (to use the Sandman character) a non-notable "Alvin Mann" who transitions to the chosen name "Wanda" and only then becomes notable should be discussed here only as "Wanda"... again no matter what her reason for picking that name. – .Raven  .talk 07:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. The question is not what makes the new name of encyclopaedic interest, it's what makes the old name of interest. From the last RfC we already have a clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest, so there has to be something about the former name that makes it of interest.

  Manning isn't a great example here, because she's alive and so subject to the guidance in the second and third paragraph of GENDERID. However as a thought experiment, if Manning was decased, the incident that lead to her notability happened prior to her transition. So she's covered under the if they were notable prior to transitioning clause.

  So for Wanda (and thanks for using that example cause Sandman is one of my favourite graphic novel series), we in all likelihood would not include her former name. That she changed it from Alvin as part of her transition doesn't raise above the minor aspect threshold for us as an encyclopaedia, though obviously it is hugely important to her own sense of self and personal life. We also don't need to state her former name in order to record that her parents deadnamed her at her funeral and on her tombstone. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "... so there has to be something about the former name that makes it of interest." – This is what I thought I just supported, as with Manning and Mann. Meanwhile, asking about the name change – "... is there a reason why the person picked the name? Was it in honour of or to remember a friend or relative? Is there a deeper meaning behind the name that links in to other aspects of the person's life? Does it tie into their spirituality, religion, or cultural background in some meaningful way?" – only concerns the new name, and doesn't affect the notability of the old name, i.e. doesn't give a reason why that too should be in the article. – .Raven  .talk 16:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  Re: ... only concerns the new name, and doesn't affect the notability of the old name .... — well, only if the only old name is the birth name. Theoretically a person could change names before transitioning and then switch to their current name.

  I think, as I currently understand the policy, that it would be most likely to capture persons who have either wavered (or been thought to waver) on their trans identity after becoming notable or embraced multiple names/identities (like Hemingway and Izzard).--Jerome Frank Disciple 16:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  > "or embraced multiple names/identities" – We report on all of David Bowie's names, including David Robert Jones and Ziggy Stardust, but then he never attempted to hide any of them, and no physical transition was involved. (This may not even be a fair example to use, as "stage names" are involved.) People who change names (and genders) before becoming notable may prefer a complete separation, the equivalent of WP:CLEANSTART... and I'm suggesting that we extend the same courtesy to them as to each other here. – .Raven  .talk 20:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  Oh I think I misunderstood. You're saying you'd prefer Option 3 in the last RFC to this proposal. I think that's fair (IIRC, I went with option 2, but that was because my experience in a prior RFC had lead me to think that option 3 didn't have a chance, and I figured some increased restriction was better than no change. (I have no idea why I believed this ... but I for some reason assumed that if there was a consensus to change the current guideline, the closer would pick the compromise option. To be clear that's not a critique of the closer ... I'm baffled that I just assumed that ... even then, I knew better, and if someone had asked "What are you talking about?" I would've immediately been like "oh wait. no." ... but there multiple instances of me being like "yup; here's what I'm planning" in various comments before the RFC.) Anyways ...--Jerome Frank Disciple 20:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  Well, #3 ("never") would be simpler, but as I said above, not well cover situations where the old name was already notable. This proposal (between #2 "sometimes" and #3 "never") helps navigate that situation, making the exception only for names notable before the change – again, as with Chelsea Manning. I think that threads the gap between the two options. – .Raven  .talk 22:12, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  only concerns the new name, and doesn't affect the notability of the old name You're absolutely right. I made that comment in error and will be striking it in a moment, as I got it the wrong way around (I blame the summer heat, it's too warm where I am!). Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  Summer heat is indeed distracting!   😅💦   – .Raven  .talk 18:06, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

• The above background section is, inevitably, a partial description of the previous RfC. I encourage people to read the original questions, options and closes. To be clear, the question that was asked was "If a deceased trans or nonbinary person was not notable prior to transitioning, when should an article mentioning that person include their deadname?" and the closer stated that "For the specific proposals of the RFC, there is no consensus to change the current wording of MOS:GENDERID". EddieHugh (talk) 19:35, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'm unclear what that adds. Yes, "for the specific proposals" that were previously advanced, there was no consensus, because the censuses was between two of those proposals. And how did I not capture the question asked in my first sentence? Oh well.--Jerome Frank Disciple 19:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Note, I've moved these two comments from the #Background section above. If you want to discuss changing the wording of that section, do it here please, not up there. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:42, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  ok. Please state clearly in that section what the question and main finding were. EddieHugh (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Question is already stated (see first sentence). Will add the "for the specific proposals" line.--Jerome Frank Disciple 20:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Honestly I would just reword that section into something much simpler. Something like A recent RfC closed with the consensus that the community "believes that, for the most part, the prior name [of a deceased trans or non-binary person] should not be used". However the community fell short of finding a consensus for a specific barrier for inclusion based on the options presented. The purpose of this RfC is not to re-litigate the previous RfC, but to find consensus for a barrier for inclusion that reflects the closure of the previous RfC. This summarises the relevant part of the closure of the last RfC, and states clearly that the purpose of this RfC is to fulfil the consensus that was already established by it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Your RFC! Feel free to change. I personally think mentioning the baseline, at the very least, might be helpful, but if you disagree that's totally okay.--Jerome Frank Disciple 20:07, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  I don't really care enough to change it either way. I just prefer simplicity over verbosity on something like this. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:15, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  I've changed it. I agree the new phrasing is clearer. Loki (talk) 23:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

• SMcCandlish: Above, you say the proposal has "the gem of a good idea" but that it needs "considerable further wordsmithing before it's guideline-worthy". Would you mind elaborating on which parts you think are good versus which parts you think need more work? Loki (talk) 03:41, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  @LokiTheLiar: As I indicated, I agree with Some1's reasoning why "established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources" is problematic (Only_in_death_does_duty_end also gets into it). I'm not really certain yet of alternative better wording. (There's a reason why major change proposals for P&G pages are often workshopped for some time in advance of being proposed in RfC; P&G writing is challenging and often requires a lot of head-scratching to get right.) Edit: Trystan's "is established through discussion of the name in high quality sources" might work, though some may object that it still is creating a "special class". Further edit: "multiple reliable sources mention the deadname, as long as the subject itself receives SIGCOV" proposed in a subsection below would also probably work. 'Introduce the former name with either "born" or "formerly"' is probably unnecessarily prescriptive, and even if we did prescribe so narrowly, it would be in the material above that, on how to write about TG/NB people at all (remember this proposed material is only about the deceased). The example material to me seems a bit tumid; while the explanations are probably needed, they could be done as {{efn}} footnotes. Or the two long ones could just be made more concise, e.g. by eliminating the redundant "Note:" introductions, and by compressing things like "While Alcorn's gender identity is discussed in significant detail in high quality sources about her, her former name is not." to something more like "Alcorn's former name is not covered in high-quality sources.". The really blathery "Hemingway's struggles with her gender dysphoria, and relationship with her gender identity, gender expression, and name are discussed in significant detail in sources about her life." can be reduced to "Hemingway's former name is covered in high-quality sources." Even leave out "in significant detail", which really doesn't make sense in this context (a name is a name not a novel; once you've given the full name what more "significant detail" could there be?)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC); rev'd. 23:57, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think a questions here are a) is the proposal closer to community consensus than the existing policies and b) does the proposal contain language (from the onset) that is problematic and should not be adopted (even if it does better reflect community consensus)? I do agree that writing policy is hard - my question is do these concerns rise to a level that requires more perfection rather than the normal process of word smithing (that can be completed on the MOS talk page)? - Enos733 (talk) 04:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  I might agree with you if I even slightly trusted the idea that various participants here would not editwar against textual and wiki-logical improvements, on the bogus basis that the wording was what was "approved" in this RfC (witness already the attempts to have the closer discount comments, on the basis that they don't agree with what was "approved" in the last RfC!). There has been a palpable WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality surrounding this entire subject at Wikipedia since at least the mid-2010s, and it has gotten worse not better. So, no, I expect the wordsmithing to happen before the guideline is substantively changed. And this is not a strange expectation, but pretty much SOP when it comes to major P&G changes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC) PS: I think EddieHugh's [3] concern that the previous, vague RfC was a "priming question" has proved correct.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not getting into this discussion too much, but I do think what you're saying here is probably a fair assessment of the situation. Any future change will likely lead to another RFC, where it will probably be argued that the new RFC shouldn't be happening at all because "the consensus was already established in this RFC". Now, whether those arguments will hold merit is another question. --Licks-rocks (talk) 09:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  The priming question is interesting. So his idea was that I deliberately (update!) or accidentally asked a noncontroversial question first to make the controversial questions seem ... less controversial participants more amenable to the subsequent more controversial proposals? Sounds pretty devious! Since I am the person who set up the RFC, I do want to defend myself a bit here, both because that subjectively wasn't my intent and because I think your analysis has some objective flaws. (I also dispute Eddie claim that I didn't spend enough time considering the RFCBEFORE; in reality, I spent quite a bit of time there and examining other RFCs in order to craft the options. Finally, I'd note that, contrary to the implication, no "priming effects" concern was raised at the RFCBEFORE when topic 1 was brought up by Trystan.)

  We have a proposal that has a higher standard than option 2 but a lower standard than option 3 at the last RFC. You're suggesting that the last RFC was shaded by priming effects which aren't present in this RFC. Well, what's the basis for that? I assume what you mean to say is that, if there were no priming effects, you would expect this proposal to be more popular. In the last RFC, 53% of users said they'd support Option 3 either uniquely or among other options; 29% said the same about Option 2. Perhaps you're thinking, "well if we've split the difference, then half of the option 2 supporters and all of the option 3 supporters should support this proposal!"

  But I think that makes two big, unsupported assumptions about both the supporters of option 2 and this proposal. Consider, for example, that more option 2 supporters also supported option 4 than supported option 3. And I personally think this proposal leans more towards option 3 than splitting the difference between the two options, but, regardless of whether you agree, my point is that it's hard to measure.(Notably, Trystan, who supported option 2 alone in the last RFC, has said this standard is too high for him.) (Also: notably, about one-fourth of the users in this RFC weren't in the last RFC, so whether you can reliably compare these two body of users is itself questionable.)--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:00, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

  I really don't like writing "That's not what I said!", as in my experience it is a sign that people are talking past each other and that such a pattern will continue, but... "So his idea was that I deliberately asked a noncontroversial question first to make the controversial questions seem ... less controversial?" That is very much not what I wrote; it included "unintentional or not" (contrast with "deliberately") and examples of the possible effects of priming questions (contrast them with "seem ... less controversial"). EddieHugh (talk) 16:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

  Apologies for the deliberate comment! Will strike. I can also change that the questions would seem less controversial to "make them more amenable to the other more controversial suggestions", though I'm not sure there's a huge distinction there.

  I'd stand by that there's no evidence of priming effects, and I was always a bit dubious as to the possibility: It actually seemed a little funny for someone who opposed the proposal to be simultaneously calling it on that "looks unlikely to be disagreed with". I'd also still strongly disagree with your comment that This procedural problem could have been avoided if the lengthy discussions at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Remove the "living" qualifier in MOS:DEADNAME had not been ignored—for one, because I did not ignore that RFCBEFORE (which I also participated in), and, for two, because the idea that there was wide concern about priming effects in the RFCBEFORE is just not at all borne out by the comments there (see section on "small proposal" by Trystan).--Jerome Frank Disciple 16:51, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Procedural issue: excluding dissenting views

The suggestion of excluding views that don't fit within the bounds of the previous RFC's close keeps getting suggested. That would be the wrong approach for a closer to take.

As an overarching principle, our guidelines reflect consensus. Practically, they require actual the consensus of the community behind them to function. This is a centrally located, well-advertised RFC, and if the proposed change reflects community consensus, that will be shown in the result, without the need to artificially exclude any dissenting views from consideration.

The suggestion that editors are free to challenge the previous close has been made. In my view, that would be unproductive. The close of question 2 found no consensus for change, suggested that a consensus could be found between options 2 and 3, and contemplated a further discussion or RFC would be "likely to result in consensus language". All of which is quite reasonable. I'm somewhat skeptical on how likely a compromise option will be to actually attract enough support to establish a consensus, but the current RFC will answer that exact question, provided it is run in a fair and open manner.--Trystan (talk) 23:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Those who didn't get the outcome they desired are more motivated to try to continue pushing over and over to overturn a result through decreased participation of the community versus the group trying to reverse a decision. Hence those trying to overturn will show up more readily in a secondary discussion than the much larger group of people that were involved in the original community decision because the latter community group will more generally feel like a decision was made and implemented. I contend that re-litigation of RfCs, particularly in discussions that aren't on the original questions, with much smaller turnout is an attempt to use local consensus to reverse an actual community decision. If re-litigation of an RfC is desired, then those desiring that should re-start their own RfC on the original topic and specific questions, not try to bog down other RfCs that are about implementation of the community decision. Silverseren^C 00:09, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I do think this is a tricky issue: on the one hand, we wouldn't be having this RFC if it weren't for the prior one indicating that a consensus existed between two options. The prior close indicated that option 2 was the baseline, and it does seem like a waste of time too, effectively do the prior RFC over—it only closed a week ago! Per WP:CCC, "Editors may propose a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances. On the other hand, proposing to change a recently established consensus can be disruptive."

On the other hand, I think it will be difficult to accurately distinguish between comments that say "this particular bar is too high" or "too ambiguous" or whatever ... and comments that are asking for a lower bar than option 2 / trying to re-litigate the first RFC. And, at some point, we're just encouraging gamesmanship by trying to enforce that line—it's pretty easy to craft a "this bar is too high" !vote even if your real goal is "let's make sure the consensus from the prior RFC is never realized". Hopefully, of course, the eventual closer won't have to consider any of this, but I don't envy whoever tries to take it on.--Jerome Frank Disciple 00:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Those who didn't get the outcome they desired are more motivated to try to continue pushing over and over to overturn a result through decreased participation of the community versus the group trying to reverse a decision. I note that the warring over these issues has been going on for long enough that participation bias may already have applied to the original RFC that this RFC is following up on. And even several RFCs before it. Anomie⚔ 11:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

At the time of writing this reply, there are two !votes above that I would consider to be re-litigating part of the just closed RfC. Specifically the text there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest. (emphasis original) Had there been more time between this RfC and the close of the previous one, say six months to a year, I think an argument could be made that potentially consensus on this had changed. However for this particular topic, I don't think that it's plausible that consensus has changed so radically that those points I've quoted no longer apply.

With regards to relevant guidance for closures, a closer discounting certain contributions based on a number of criteria is covered in both the information page on closing discussions, and the advice essay on closing discussions. Asking that a closer discount those !votes is within the spirit and letter of that guidance. Of course ultimately it is up to the closer whether or not they do this, and whether or not they fully discount or otherwise reduce the weight of those contributions.

I have to agree with what Silver Seren has said just above. If re-litigation of the previous RfC is desired, then those desiring it should start their own RfC on this. And I'd also like to repeat what I've said above to another editor, if editors feel as though the close of the previous RfC is not an accurate reading of the consensus, whether in part or in whole, then their only reasonable recourse would be to request a closure review at the appropriate venue. Stating that you feel that part of the close should not apply is re-litigating the consensus from that RfC by another name, and I believe is out of scope of this RfC. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed with Sideswipe. In any other situation, trying to start an RFC to undo a consensus that was reached literally under a week ago would be so disruptive you'd plausibly be brought to ANI for it.

The only possible reason to do so would be gaming the system by hoping that a less representative chunk of the community shows up to this RFC than the previous one. Loki (talk) 02:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Concur with Trystan at the top of this subsection. If the proponents' ideas are solid and have consensus, there would be no need to try to exclude opposing viewpoints. They are also forgetting that WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE, sometimes quickly. We have that policy for a reason, and closers are not magically empowered to pretend it does not exist. (That said, I don't think the consensus in the former RfC is wrong or will change; I object to trying to whitewash away other editors' entire comments by ignoring most of what they say, focusing on their alleged disagreement with the old RfC, and trying to suppress their entire message. It's a classic logic fallcy, the fallacy of division, in which if one element of an argument is wrong everything the argument presents must also be wrong.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Of the two !votes that I consider to be re-litigating part of the last RfC, only one has made a partial contribution that is not re-litigating the prior RfC, and which largely amounts to a "per X" !vote. The other makes absolutely no substantive arguments that are not re-litigation of topics that were already discussed during the previous RfC. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

And you have no right to suppress the "per X", even if closers do not always give such !votes as much weight. I consider my point made. Doubling-down on censorious antics is not a good look.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I think perhaps you have misunderstood what has been said. No one here has called for a "per X" contribution to be discounted, either in whole or in part. Only those arguments, or parts of arguments which amount to re-litigation. If a comment contains arguments other than rehashes of what was discussed in the previous RfC, then naturally those would not be discarded. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Whatever you say.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Some of the above points are getting dangerously close to saying that some people should not participate in an RfC. In abstract terms: if the spectrum of possible wording on a guidline or policy is from 1 to 9 and a proposal is made to change it from its current 5 to 2, then someone who prefers 1 is entitled to support while arguing that 1 would be better, even if 1 or anything else was rejected previously. Similarly, someone who prefers 9 is entitled to oppose while arguing that 9 would be better, even if 5 or anything else was rejected previously. Someone who doesn't like spicy food but who is given the choice between adding more spice to the spicy food pot or leaving it as it is has a valid argument when saying "It's too spicy already, so I oppose adding more spice". EddieHugh (talk) 18:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Those numbers have thrown me a bit. I think the arguments aren't directed at who should participate in the RFC but what the RFC should discuss. A prior RFC considered Option 1, Option 2, Option 3, Option 4. The closer said the consensus was between Option 2 and Option 3. Now, imagine the closer had said we should have a runoff: asking the community to pick between 2 and 3. Obviously, it wouldn't be productive to consider voters saying "1!!" and "4!!". Instead, though, the closer said we should try to find a compromise between options 2 and 3. And I think the editors who are saying some points should be discarded are saying that, just as in the runoff, the "1!!" and "4!!" comments (or their equivalents) aren't relevant.

That said, as I said, I do think it'd be very tricky—except in the most egregious situations—to distinguish between comments that, in effect, say, "I think this proposal trends too close to option 3 and it should trend closer to option 2" and the comments that, in effect, say, "I support option 1 or option 4" (since obviously people don't—and shouldn't) phrase their !votes in that format.--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Jerome on this one, It's not about who participates, it's about how. I think there's a solid argument that the consensus on this is already established, and that we need to be working within those bounds. Any argument that doesn't contribute that would be wasted space, in this view. I'm personally inclined to agree. --Licks-rocks (talk) 20:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's likely to be a major issue here, but I agree that excluding viewpoints in this way would be a problematic thing for the closer to do. To say that project-wide consensus has been established seems to me to be saying that we should be following a waterfall-type decisionmaking process, where we lock in the answer to question A before proceeding to question B. I understand why that would seem like a good idea, but I don't think that kind of structured decisionmaking is really compatible with making good global decisions on a vast open wiki (and one in which any given RFC's sample of opinion is unlikely to be representative). Moreover, leaving out step-1 dissenters in the evaluation of step-2 consensus creates a lot of opportunities for "majority of the majority" (or "consensus of the consenters") process-gaming that tends to lead to poor decisions. Although consensus is of course not purely numeric, purely for purposes of illustration: if we model the consensus threshold as 2/3 then this approach would lead to a step-2 "consensus" supported by less than half (4/9) of all participants. As pointed out above this approach would lead to unworkable outcomes, because any decision can only be implemented if there is an actual consensus of the community in support. Again, I don't see this as an overwhelming concern here. But IMO the closer we keep our understanding of "consensus" to the ordinary meaning of the word, the better our decisions are going to be. And that means excluding as few viewpoints as possible from the determination of whether a consensus exists. -- Visviva (talk) 22:41, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Any such closure would be invalid under present policy, end of story. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Once again, to echo Jerome and Licks-rocks, "It's not about who participates, it's about how": 9/9 of prior RfC participants can participate here, no matter whether they were in the majority or minority before; but only comments/!votes within the parameters of the prior RfC's closure should be accepted – because this RfC is for discussion of what the prior RfC left open, between options 2 and 3. As that RfC's closer put it, "Where, exactly, the lines of encyclopedic interest and avoiding confusion are is not simple or clear and will likely need discussion...." This does not invite revisiting options already declined there. – .Raven  .talk 23:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, I don't think that's a viable way of doing policy on an open wiki. If you don't like the vote-counting illustration, let's take WP:DETCON at its word: let's call A the best (and therefore "consensus") argument made in RFC1, and A' the best argument made in RFC2. Hypothetically, if A′ were actually a better argument than A (A′ >> A), then (a) we would be doing the project a great disservice by rejecting A′ merely because it was not raised in RFC1, and (b) we would also be violating the letter of DETCON, according to which the superior argument is automatically the consensus argument. A path-dependent model of consensus is going to yield a suboptimal outcome here, regardless of the closer's preferred understanding of consensus. (Off-topic but obligatory note that DETCON is arrant nonsense that nobody actually believes, and if it did accurately describe policy it would immediately cease to be policy, because nobody could ever seriously entertain the idea that arguments have an objective level of "quality" independent of the observer's own preferences.) -- Visviva (talk) 23:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

1) "by rejecting A′ merely because it was not raised in RFC1" – Except in this case A′ was already raised in RFC1, and expressly rejected... just a week ago.

2) "let's take WP:DETCON at its word.... DETCON is arrant nonsense that nobody actually believes" – You just rejected the premise of your own comment's preceding text. Why bother posting it?

3) Except that "objective level of 'quality'" argues against a seemingly vague contextless word... which in the original text has a specific context: "quality... as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy" — in other words, whether arguments are in accord with policy, or not. This is neither "arrant nonsense that nobody actually believes" nor ultimately indeterminable. – .Raven  .talk 02:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Also to reiterate, .Raven is ignoring the unignorable fact that WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE is hard policy. It really doesn't matter what consensus came to in an old RfC; if current consensus doesn't exactly comport with it, then current consensus overrides. That is how all decision-making on WP works, since the project began.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Let's see the first paragraph of WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE: "Editors may propose a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances. On the other hand, proposing to change a recently established consensus can be disruptive." [emphasis added] – In this case the argument was "previously considered", and consensus established a week ago, not very "old". – .Raven  .talk 02:22, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that previously considered arguments become invalid arguments - it just means you shouldn't open a new RfC based on those arguments. If an RfC is opened then editors are free to make them again and if they are policy-compliant then they should be taken into account by the closer; to do otherwise could result in a close that doesn't reflect the consensus of the broader community - Visviva gives a good example of how this could happen. BilledMammal (talk) 05:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Except in this case this RfC was opened specifically to follow up (not overturn) the prior RfC by working out the details of the... compromise?... midpoint?... resolution?... of the two options, #2 and #3, singled out by that prior RfC's consensus. To say that prior consensus got it wrong is not on the agenda. – .Raven  .talk 06:51, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

And to determine that midpoint you need a consensus from the broader community, not just the subset that supported some indeterminate point between #2 and #3.

What you need is a proposal that can win the support of enough editors who supported that indeterminate point to overcome the general objections. If your proposal can't do that then it isn't the midpoint. BilledMammal (talk) 11:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes. This is a keenly analytical way of getting at what I was trying to point out more vaguely.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Lol @ CONSENSUSCANCHANGE. If someone opened a new RFC to relitigate a heavily-attended RFC that closed less than a week earlier [that one closed on the 7th, this one started on the 12th], citing CONSENSUSCANCHANGE, they would (as someone noted above) probably get taken to ANI for disruptive editing, if not (more likely IMO) simply shot down on the spot. -sche (talk) 03:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Non sequitur and red herring; no one "opened a new RfC to relitigate"; this is about suppression of an editor's entire input into an implementation RfC based on a perception that one point they raise may be relitigation. Not the same thing. There's also a strong element of fait accompli running through this discussion. If people think that an RfC with limited input cannot be overturned by a later RfC with broader input they are sadly mistaken. (I can even remember another MoS case in which exactly that happened, after only about a week.) I don't think that should happen in this case, mind you, I'm just pointing out that all of this "the previous RfC already set this in stone" argumentation is bogus, as is the illiberal censoriousness being brought to bear against editors who raise concerns (it's cancel-culture nonsense).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

if we're going to be pointing out fallacies, your first argument here is a strawman. Nobody said the entire comment should be thrown out either. Just the parts that ignore prior consensus. Aditionally, I wouldn't say the last rfc had "limited input". --Licks-rocks (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

See !vote by Cuñado and responses to it. The tag-team attempt to suppress that editor's entire input on the basis that part of it was allegedly relitigating is the entire reason I brought this up in the first place. People can try to backpedal all they want, but they said what they said. As for input levels, this follow-on RfC is attracting input from editors who did not participate in the last one and it's likely to exceed it in input level (I would bet both in quantity and quality) before it closes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm with SMc on this. I was going to respond to the [attemped] suppression against that editor, but decided against it. I did see it though... Huggums537 (talk) 05:50, 25 June 2023 (UTC) Updated on 14:32, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

As did I, but by the time I saw the exchange, the most recent comment was weeks old, and I didn't see the value in reigniting the discussion. Nevertheless, I generally agree with SMcCandlish's impression that it involved an unnecessary and ultimately unhelpful effort to shoot down the very first differing opinion in the thread and was, also as he said, a very bad look. The previous RfC was unambiguously closed as "no consensus". The closer went on to observe where they thought consensus might align, and I think SFR's read is entirely reasonable. But it's just that: a read. The participants of that discussion were !voting on discrete issues, and what they might have thought about any third options within the constraints of the previous proposals involves no small amount of speculation. Again, I think SFR made a very admirable and cogent effort at surmising where consensus might still be found, but they also (quite appropriately) did not frame those observations as a summary of existing formal consensus. On the matter of formal consensus, they were quite clear as to the outcome: none.

And frankly, even if the closer had framed matters differently, there is absolutely no bar on sharing a perspective on what policy should be, once an issue is temporarily settled by the community. Such statements only become WP:disruptive where an editor tendentiously re-opens discussions after there is a firm consensus: here, another party made the choice to bring this issue straight back to RfC to achieve consensus and Cunado simple chose to weigh in with their opinion on how they think policy ought to be structured, at the broadest level of the issues in question. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and WP:DISCARD contains no language suggesting that opinion should be invalidated, especially considering we are talking about a WP:PROPOSAL for novel policy language, not a dispute about how to interpret existing policy. Just a very unfortunate and poorly considered distraction. I'd really advise the parties that took part in trying to shoot down the procedural validity of that !vote to reconsider their rhetorical tactics next time, because this kind of Wikilawyering (and I usually don't use that term, because I think it often says more about the person using it than the one it is used against, but it seems apt in this case) almost always undermines whatever argument you are trying to advance.

Mind you, I say all of this as someone who mostly strongly disagrees with Cunado's take there. But I would expect their argument to be attacked on first principles, not through an effort to procedurally invalidate their opinion. And indeed, the the effort to do the latter suffocated the possibility of doing the former here, where the former would have been much more potentially persuasive with those who joined the discussion later, imo. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 10:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I think your reading of the close is simply wrong. But at this point I think it's worth asking the closer themselves:

@ScottishFinnishRadish Could you please clarify whether your close on Topic 2 was in fact for no consensus period, or whether you found a solid community consensus that runs somewhere between the never and the sometimes of Topic 2, as you said in the summary of the whole RFC? Loki (talk) 16:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Well, both. The RFC was a question on specific wording. Specifically for the wording, there was no consensus, but summarizing the entire discussion, both of topic 2, and the entire series of questions shows a solid community consensus that runs somewhere between the never and the sometimes of Topic 2. That doesn't bring us to where exactly the consensus is, though. I've said in other places regarding this that if I could have closed topic 2 as consensus for 2.8 I would have, but that would still leave the same position of having to determine what, if any, changes to make to the MOS. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (alternatives)

Replies moved here from from above to keep the discussion on topic; initially made in reply to this comment BilledMammal (talk) 17:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think “in-depth discussion of the name should be the bar… but rather in-depth discussion of the subject by sources using the name. Blueboar (talk) 16:42, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Seconded (or thirded? Whatever.) I imagine very, very, few sources will actually "analyze" or "discuss" the name in much detail. How does one even "analyze" the name? Go into a detailed summary of its etymology? Ridiculous. I !voted oppose anyways, but if consensus goes the other way, this is a necessary change. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 15:12, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I think established through discussion of the name in high quality sources has much of the same issues as the current proposal; Hemingway's former name is included in almost all high quality sources covering her, but the name itself isn't discussed. I would mostly agree with Blueboar, although I would prefer "including" rather than "using" the name.

Perhaps something like "widely included by reliable and secondary sources that contain significant coverage of the subject"? I think it would also be useful to include a line like "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of determing whether a name has been commonly included", to avoid us including names just because one prolific author always includes it while half a dozen less prolific ones do not.

However, I think further discussion of alternatives should be done elsewhere, to keep this discussion on topic. BilledMammal (talk) 17:00, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I think "multiple" is too low a standard. The standard that you and Blueboar are describing sounds very similar to the option 2 in the last RFC: "if such inclusion would satisfy the principle of least astonishment, particularly considering the majority of reliable sources discussing said person."

Given that we are trying to split the needle between option 2 and 3, I do think we need to aim a bit higher than that. Can I ask what your thoughts are on my proposal here (just the text within the {{ctop}})?--Jerome Frank Disciple 17:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I think you misread my proposal; I'm not suggesting "multiple", I'm suggesting "widely" which I consider to be a higher standard than that.

Regarding that proposal, my overall position is that if a proposal would prevent us from including a name even if every reliable source on the subject included it, then the bar the proposal sets is far too high. Your proposal would prevent us from including those names under circumstances where the subject's gender ID is neither contested nor conflicted, and other circumstances exist where it is relevant. BilledMammal (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Ah, so for you it's about a percentage. Is "widely" higher than "majority"? (from the last option 2.) Idk I think if 40% of sources said X, then it'd be fair to describe that as "widely said", so I have trouble seeing how your proposal would be a higher bar than the last option 2.--Jerome Frank Disciple 17:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

It would be flexible to allow us to adjust to the circumstances. For example, if someone is covered by just three suitable sources and two mention the former name then we should probably exclude it, even though it is mentioned in a majority of sources. Alternatively, if someone is covered by one hundred suitable sources and forty-five include it then we should probably include it, even though it isn't mentioned in a majority of sources. The flexibility also saves us from having to gather a complete collection of sources and carefully counting which include and which exclude it, an exercise that would be extremely impractical for more notable individuals. BilledMammal (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so it's not really a higher bar ... it's just a different bar. But I still don't know if that is actually splitting the difference between option 2 and option 3, which said the name should never be used. (I'm also not sure, in practice, how often a "well this person is only covered by 3 sources, 2 of which use their deadname" scenario would come up). To be clear: I'm not saying I'd certainly oppose your proposal—in practice I think it would operate, essentially, exactly the same as option 2 from the last RFC, which I supported (along with option 3)--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:04, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

It probably would operate similarly; the differences I see are that it addresses the concerns about not considering quality of sources, and it addresses the concerns about the complexity of determining a majority. BilledMammal (talk) 18:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

So I've got two issues with "widely included..." Even with the "significant coverage" qualifier, that's an argument for inclusion based on volume alone. That's contraindicated by the just closed RfC which states Many responses supporting different options specifically called out the difficulty of dealing with a "majority" of sources, e.g. is 50%+1 sufficient? How does a majority take into account emphasis and source quality? Some of those supporting option 2 suggested a higher bar than majority as well. To fulfil the existing consensus, any proposed barrier has to be higher than something based on mere volume of sources.

Secondly, significant coverage is part of WP:N, and N pretty explicitly states The criteria applied to the creation or retention of an article are not the same as those applied to the content inside it. The notability guideline does not apply to the contents of articles. During the drafting I considered whether linking in with N, or something that derives from N, would be appropriate, but because of NNC I quickly came to the obvious conclusion that we can't apply notability criteria to article content in that manner. That's ultimately why I settled on BALASP, which is applicable to content and about inclusion versus exclusion of minor aspects of a subject.

However, I think further discussion of alternatives should be done elsewhere We could move this comment chain, in part or in whole, to a subsection below the survey. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

For your first point, how about "widely included by reliable, secondary, and high quality sources that contain significant coverage of the subject"?

For your second point, we already directly apply notability in this area with If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Given that I don't believe there is any issue with applying criteria derived from WP:GNG if it would be appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 17:32, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

This version of "widely included" is a bit better, but it still has the volume issue. How widely are we talking about? 50%+1? One of the common supermajority thresholds? It also doesn't help us with assessing encyclopaedic significance, which is part of the threshold per there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion.

On the second point, this is actually an interesting thing about that criteria. It's not directly applying N to the content, it's using the point at which an article's subject meets N as an convenient and easily stated cut-off date for inclusion versus exclusion. In effect, what it means is that we would only include the former names of living trans or non-binary individuals if they change their name after the point at which we created an article about them. Hence why we include Elliot Page's former name, but not Laverne Cox. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:50, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Widely would be flexible, as I discuss in my reply to Jerome Frank Disciple. I don't think we want a clearly defined percentage, both because determining whether someone passes that percentage would be impractical, and because it could result in us including the name when we should exclude it and the reverse. I also think it helps with assessing encyclopaedic significance because it assesses whether reliable sources consider it relevant - a key metric of encyclopaedic significance.

In effect, what it means is that we would only include the former names of living trans or non-binary individuals if they change their name after the point at which we created an article about them. That isn't quite accurate; it is saying we only include the former names of living trans or non-binary individuals if they change their name after the point at which we could have created an article about them. Personally, I don't think that is the ideal metric - it requires us to include the former name of people who barely passed WP:NACTOR or another of the more inclusive SNG's prior to transitioning but then became significantly more notable later, and it requires us to exclude the former name of people who became notable after transitioning but who have their former name included in every reliable source on the subject - but that is a different discussion.

I'll add that the benefit of this proposal is that it would be almost certain to get a consensus; we can then see how it works in practice and adjust it later if we encounter issues. BilledMammal (talk) 17:57, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Sideswipe that the close of the previous RFC indicates we should be using a more contextual approach rather than a volume of sources approach- what makes sense to me would be to have the guideline be that there must be a clear/specific reason to include the deadname of the person in question if they were not notable before adopting their new name, and that verifiability alone is not enough to warrant inclusion. I'm not sure how we would word that or whether other people would agree with that assessment, but I do think that that seems to be essentially what was agreed upon in the close of the last RFC and it does essentially allow for the decision to be made on a case by case basis. this would explicitly allow for the inclusion of the deadname of the nashville shooter, which a lot of people seem concerned about even though it's an extremely rare case. I'd be curious to hear what other people think about this. Tekrmn (talk) 18:32, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

That's a decent point. I think, alone, there must be a reason to include the deadname beyond the mere fact that the person was once known by that name would be a bit too low a bar and not provide quite enough guidance. I tried to use WP:PLA in the last RFC to provide some guidance in option 2 (with one factor to be considered being the majority of reliable sources), but obviously that got, at best, a mixed response. (I also don't know that PLA would cover examples like Gloria Hemingway, who's been mentioned a few times here.)--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I do personally agree that this would be too low of a bar but it seems like a fair number of editors feel that the current proposal is too high a bar (and while I was in favor of option 3 I also think that the language of this proposal would really only apply to very specific cases like Gloria Hemingway or arguably Marsha P Johnson) and I would like to come to a consensus on something. the more leeway there is in the guideline, of course, the easier it will be for people to misuse it, but I also do think that edge cases like Gloria Hemingway and the Nashville shooting are being taken into account, and while I don't think we should make decisions based on cases like that we may have to acknowledge that people are taking them into account. I definitely agree that what I wrote would need to at the very least be word-smithed and I do think it could be written in a way that implies more restriction, however I would be thrilled if the current proposal is something we can get a consensus for.

I definitely think PLA would be a useful metric, but I also think that without having a guidance on where we can use deadnames PLA has already led to overemphasis and alone might be even more open to interpretation than what I wrote in some ways. Tekrmn (talk) 19:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

It would be flexible, but that flexibility has the same endless discussion trap that our current lack of guidance has. In this case, because everyone defines widely differently, there will be a lot of discussion (and a corresponding lack of consistency) on just what widely means per article subject. The most viable solution is one that is not based on source volume, or if it is then we should set a minimum floor above which inclusion can be considered but not mandated, as that would allow for consensus to form around exclusion.

On notability being a convenient cut-off date, I would refer back to this discussion from November 2020, which eventually lead us to more or less the current phrasing of the guideline. The comment chain starting from SMcCandlish's comment at 06:00, 15 November 2020, is the most relevant part for this. The intention, at least for the last three years, has always been that if the person changed names prior to meeting WP:GNG or a relevant SNG, then we would not include the name. This is best summarised in SMcCandlish's comment If consensus is and remains that a name of TG/NB person that pre-dates that subject's notability (or an old name of a TG/NB person who is not notable at all) should not be used in mainspace, such an old name can simply be replaced with the current one. from 05:14, 17 November 2020.

it requires us to include the former name of people who barely passed WP:NACTOR or another of the more inclusive SNG's prior to transitioning but then became significantly more notable later I'm curious if you have an example in mind for this.

Honestly, I think Trystan's proposal of replacing is established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources with is established through discussion of the name in high quality sources is a more workable option here. It lowers the barrier somewhat from "in-depth analysis" to just "discussion of the name", while still keeping it restricted to higher quality sources. It sidesteps the volume threshold problem entirely, and because of this meets the consensus from the last RfC quite well. Though we (BilledMammal and I) disagree on whether my original proposal as written would allow for Gloria Hemingway or the Public Universal Friend's name, I think Trystan's proposal would definitely support both. It would still leave Aiden Hale's former name for the application of IAR, but as I've said previously (to some support) trying to make this guideline apply to Hale would result in too low a threshold of inclusion for the vast majority of applicable articles. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:42, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

It would be flexible, but that flexibility has the same endless discussion trap that our current lack of guidance has. It might, but I'm not convinced it will - most of our policies are flexible, and all of the best ones are. I don't see any harm in trying; it prevents us from always including the name, and if it proves problematic in practice we can return here with a new proposal seeking to adjust it with clear examples of where the issues are.

I'm curious if you have an example in mind for this. No, I don't edit in this area, but I would expect such examples to exist. The real issue is the SNG's being overly inclusive (although marginally meeting GNG prior to transition is another example of when we probably shouldn't include the name), but again a different discussion.

Though we (BilledMammal and I) disagree on whether my original proposal as written would allow for Gloria Hemingway or the Public Universal Friend's name, I think Trystan's proposal would definitely support both. Can you provide examples of sources that you believe would demonstrate that their former names meet the requirements of this proposal (or if you are unable to, Trystan's)? Our disagreement could simply be because I haven't seen the sources you have. BilledMammal (talk) 19:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

No, I don't edit in this area Ah ha! Ok, as an editor who does edit in this area, I'm telling you straight up that the flexibility in your proposal coming from a floating definition of widely will be a problem because of the issues alluded to in my last reply.

For Trystan's proposal, on Hemingway, I think Paul Hendrickson's Hemingway's boat, on pages 567, 586, and 590, would fit. There's text about the fluidity of how Hemingway presented, and used different names based on that. There was another source I had open last night that would have fit my proposal, but I'll be damned if I can find it now, sorry.

For the Public Universal Friend, sources are a little harder to find due to the various spellings of the Friend's names. But I think Herbert Wisbey's Pioneer prophetess: Jemima Wilkinson, the Publick Universal Friend. There's too much to pick out specific pages I'm afraid, but there's a lot in it about the Friend and why they discarded their former name and how that was reflected in later life. From memory Paul Moyer's The Public Universal Friend: Jemima Wilkinson and religious enthusiasm in revolutionary America also has a fair bit of detail on the name change.

I would however hesitate to use the Friend as one of our examples, if nothing else because it's very unclear as to whether they would be what we now consider to be non-binary or not. The same sort of issue crops up with other historical figures like James Barry, due to a mixture of available sources and societal attitudes to non-cishet identities at the time. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Ok, as an editor who does edit in this area, I'm telling you straight up that the flexibility in your proposal coming from a floating definition of widely will be a problem because of the issues alluded to in my last reply. People in every area (including occasionally myself) say flexibility is a problem in guidelines and policies dealing with their area. They're usually wrong; I think it is better to start with more flexibility (although any of these proposals, including mine, will reduce considerably the flexibility from the status quo) and tighten the specific aspects that are problematic, rather than starting with an extremely inflexible guideline that could be used to exclude names from articles that should include them.

I don't have immediate access to Hemingway's Boat; I'll try to get a look at it soon.

Quickly reading the first chapter of "The Public Universal Friend: Jemima Wilkinson and religious enthusiasm in revolutionary America" which deals with their transition from Jemima Wilkinson to the Public Universal Friend I see some discussion of the name "Public Universal Friend" (for example, "That the Public Universal Friend thought of his turn to prophecy in terms that were roughly compatible with Quaker precedents is evident in the fact that his moniker was a modification of the title, “Public Friend,” the Quakers gave to their itinerant preachers") but I'm not seeing any discussion of the name "Jemima Wilkinson".

Doing the same with "Pioneer prophetess: Jemima Wilkinson, the Publick Universal Friend", I also cannot find any discussion of the name "Jemima Wilkinson"; can you provide quotes of the discussion you see? BilledMammal (talk) 21:16, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: apologies, I only just noticed that you had replied here. Sorry for the delay.

I can't really give you quotations, because this isn't something that's easily quoted as a lot of it is spread throughout the book. Instead I can give you pages and chapters of interest. Plus even with the age of some of these texts, I don't want to run afoul of a copyvio.

So chapter 1 of Wisbey's book has a brief mention of the biblical connotations of the Friend's birth name, at the end of page 3 and start of page 4. Chapter 7 discusses how a trustee was necessary as the Friend refused to hold property in their former name (pages 121-123), and later gives an account for someone who tried to get the Friend to use their former name (page 133). It's Chapter 9 however that goes into the most depth, with discussion on why the Friend had to finally recognise their former name on their deathbed, as otherwise their will would not have been recognised. Despite having to recognise the name however, the Friend still refused to actually sign with it and instead opted for an X (pages 165-168). There is also discussion in chapter 10, for how post-death the Friend's former name became synonymous with fraud and delusion (pages 173-175, and throughout the rest of the chapter how the former name and seemingly not the chosen name became associated with a story of walking on water.

In Moyer's book, chapter 5 makes brief mention of how the Friend needed a trustee to conduct legal affairs due to not recognising their former name (page 135). Chapter 7 discusses some legal issues the Friend had, where a Sheriff attempted to serve legal papers upon the Friend, but because the papers used the Friend's former name they refused to accept them. It required negotiation for the writ to be amended to mention the Friend's chosen name before they accepted them (pages 168-169). There's similar legal difficulties mentioned later in the chapter on pages 182-184. Finally chapter 8/the epilogue also discusses the Friend's will, and circumstances that require the will to contain their former name, and refusal to sign it with anything other than an X (pages 193-194).

If that's not sufficient for you, Scott Larson's "Indescribable Being": Theological Performances of Genderlessness in the Society of the Publick Universal Friend, 1776–1819 goes into a fair amount of depth on the Friend's transition (or perhaps transformation might be more terminologically appropriate, pages 577-578). It also discusses the duality of the names were a reflection on the perspective of the beholder, with those sympathetic to the Friend seeing them as the Friend, whereas those who were opposed saw the Friend as Wilkinson (pages 579-581). Pages 593-595 further reinforce this distinction between the names, with an interesting note on page 595 where the diaries of a former follower of the Friend change from using genderless language and "The Friend", to using gendered language and the Friend's former name after her published denunciation. Page 595 also discusses the same legal issues encountered by the Friend with respect to their will.

There's an fascinating note from Larson on page 583, on the difficulties in using genderless language as preferred by the Friend and their followers, and how despite this because of the age in which the Friend lived, Larson had to preform many searches using their former name. That actually has some parallels to some of the discussion in the survey above, where some are remarking that the former name is necessary to allow for research on the person. While that is certainly true for historical figures like the Friend, for modern trans and non-binary individuals (ie those born after the early 20th century) this is less of an issue because often one of the earliest steps in transitioning is getting early life documentation, like birth certificates, school and court records, and medical records, to retrospectively recognise the changed name. All but three US states allow for retrospective changes to a trans or non-binary person's birth certificate to reflect their gender identity, and many European countries have equivalencies in place through gender recognition certificates. For a modern trans or non-binary person, I would strongly suspect that this belief that not including the former name will hinder future research is not representative of the time in which we actually find ourselves living. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:59, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Also just incase it's not clear as I don't think I explicitly stated it, I believe Larson's paper would fully meet the test in my proposal. As would the totality of content spread throughout Wisbey and Moyer, though reasonable minds may differ on that. With Wisbey and Moyer it's a little more difficult though because the relevant discussion is spread across multiple chapters.

That said, all three would also in my opinion easily meet the barrier set by Trystan's proposal. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:03, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the following quotes are what you are referring to:

1. The eighth child, her fourth daughter, was born on November 29, 1752, and was given the biblical name Jemima, after one of the daughters of Job.
2. This arrangement was necessary because Jemima Wilkinson, from the beginning of her ministry, refused to own any real property in her own name. Her attitude was explained in a petition, stating that she, "being wholly devoted to her Religious Duties & deeming it inconsistent therewith & unbecoming her character to have any personal concern or agency in pecuniary or temporal concerns constituted Sarah Richards, one of her most Trustworthy Followers & Friends, Trustee of the lands."
3. A story that is perhaps apocryphal, but not at all improbable, relates her answer to a man named Day, who was trying to induce her to admit to the name Jemima Wilkinson instead of the Universal Friend.
4. This woman, who had recognized no other name than the Publick Universal Friend for more than four decades, was compelled by fear of a legal disadvantage to admit that she was the one "who in the year one thousand seven hundred and seventy six was called Jemima Wilkinson and ever since that time the Universal Friend a new name which the mouth of the Lord Hath named.
5. A codicil further identifying the Universal Friend as Jemima Wilkinson was added on July 7, 1818, and signed with an X. This was witnessed by Gold, John Briggs, and James Brown, Jr. The fact that this resolute woman refused to sign the name Jemima Wilkinson, yet, when forced by legal necessity to make a signature, signed an X as "her cross or mark" has misled some writers to con- clude that she could not read or write
6. In her native New England, however, the name of Jemima Wilkinson was synonymous with fraud and delusion.
7. As early as July 1791, the Friend, with Sarah Richards acting as his agent and trustee (the prophet refused to use his legal name in order to conduct business or to sully himself with such worldly matters), began to make payments to Robinson and Hathaway for land in the town.
8. William Savery mentioned the episode in his journal, writing that “Sheriff Norton informed us he had lately attempted to Serve a Writ on Jemima Wilkinson at the Suit of Judge Potter’s son Thomas.” The Friend initially refused to recognize the writ, which was addressed to Jemima Wilkinson. Only after some negotiation did the prophet agree to accept the warrant and post bail “under the name of ye Universal Friend commonly calld Jemima Wilkinson.”
9. Thomas Gold, one of the lawyers employed by Malin, asked, “Does she [Wilkinson] not sense that everything is at stake, the roof over her head” and advised, “the Friends name must be used, to wit, Jemima Wilkinson, as Complainant with you.”
10. It is also worth noting that the will’s opening paragraph and codicil each specify that the Universal Friend and Jemima Wilkinson were the same person. The document’s first sentence denotes it as “the Last will and Testament of the Person Called the Universal Friend . . . who in the year one thousand seven hundred and seventy six was called Jemima Wilkinson and ever since that time the Universal Friend.” In a similar vein, the codicil states, “Be it remembered that in order to remove all doubts of the due execution of the foregoing Last will & testament I being the person who before the year one thousand seven hundred & seventy seven was known & called by the name of Jemima Wilkinson but since that time as the Universal Friend.” Yet even after taking such pains, the Friend signed the will with an “X” so that he could avoid writing his original name.
11. The society of followers also used linguistic gender performances to separate themselves from the "wicked world"; they marked themselves as believers by refusing to use gendered pronouns or the name "Jemima Wilkinson" for the being known as the "Publick Universal Friend," "a newname which the mouth of the Lord hath named."
12. For those who believed the Friend divine, and for those who damned Jemima Wilkinson as a devil, radical religious experience provided a key site for reimagining and critiquing gender constructs in the years following the American Revolution.
13. Language choices could also mark points of entering and exiting the community, as the apostate and denouncer Abner Brownell refers to "The Friend" in diary entries written during the time of his membership in the Friend's community but then calls "her" "Jemima Wilkinson" in his later published denunciation, Enthusiastical Errors, Described and Decried.
14. Only after the community's lawyer insisted that the law would not recognize the community's legal rights to the land unless they made use of the name Jemima Wilkinson did the Friend grudgingly allow it to be used—by signing an X to a document bearing the name.
15. Conventions of historical scholarship also enforce given names, since though I can use "the Friend" in my text, I still must search for and cite archives bearing the name Jemima Wilkinson

These don't appear to meet the standard set forward either by this proposal or by Trystan's alternative (and I would note I see the proposals as functionally indistinguishable; Trystan's requires discussion, yours requires discussion or in-depth analysis.

For example, #2 discusses how they refused to own property under the name "Jemima Wilkinson"; while it uses the name as part of the discussion that is not the same as discussing the same. #3 discusses how an individual tried to compel them to use their former name; again, it uses the name but doesn't discuss it. This is the case for almost every section you referenced.

The two exceptions are #1 and #6 which could be argued to be discussion of the name, but I feel it would be a very weak argument; the first only says she was named after a biblical figure, while the second is a discussion about the perception of her in New England and how their preferred name for her became "synonymous with fraud and delusion" - it is not a discussion about the name itself.

I think the issues with this proposal are obvious, given your difficulties in finding discussion of the name even for this figure whose era and relationship with her former self makes the former name central to any discussion of them. BilledMammal (talk) 00:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

If you're seeing Trystan and my proposals as functionally indistinguishable, then I may not ever be able to convince you with any amount of evidence. And that's fine, reasonable minds can disagree on this.

However with the examples that you've picked out, 2 and 3, I believe you're failing to recognise that a discussion on the Friend refusing to own property because they would have to use their former name in order to purchase the deed, or that an individual attempting to compel the Friend to use their former name is de facto a discussion about the former name and its use.

I also think that by distilling this to mere quotations, and leaving out the context of the preceding and following sentences and paragraphs, you may be seeing less than what is actually present in the totality of the text.

given your difficulties in finding discussion of the name I would not say I had any difficulties finding discussion of the name. While we clearly disagree on whether or not this meets either of the thresholds set out, please do not speak for me, and state that I have encountered difficulties where I clearly believe otherwise. I would like to ask that you strike that. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:37, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

If you're seeing Trystan and my proposals as functionally indistinguishable, then I may not ever be able to convince you with any amount of evidence. Your proposal says X or Y is required, Trystan's says X is required. In theory, yours is less restrictive than Trystan's, but as Y is effectively a subset of X they are equivalent. Why do you see Trystan's as less restrictive?

Can you explain why you see a discussion of their refusal to identify with their former self as a discussion of their former name? The two are not obviously equivalent. Similarly, if you feel I am missing context by providing quotations could you expand on what that context is and how it changes these quotations from using the name in the context of discussions of other matters into discussions of the name itself? BilledMammal (talk) 00:44, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Can you explain why you see a discussion of their refusal to identify with their former self as a discussion of their former name? I was somewhat in the process of writing something akin to this before your reply, as I realised I should have added it in my second paragraph.

To answer this, lets look at your distillation of Larson's paper into quotations 13 and 14. Quotation 13 is on page 594, and quotation 14 on page 595. By presenting it in this manner, you have skipped over a significant amount of content on pages 594, 595 and the start of 597. Note, page 596 is an photo excerpt from one of the paper's primary sources.

On page 594 you have skipped over an entire paragraph on how the use of a specific name to refer to the Friend indicated whether one was part of the community of the saved or part of the "wicked world". That content contextualises what you've quoted in 13, and also includes a demonstrative example from the memoirs of a child whose parents were followers of the Friend.

Next on page 595, you seem to have skipped over context both before and after the quotation. There are two lengthy sentences prior to the quotation that contextualise it within the legal issues that the Friend both during the time where the Friend required a trustee for land ownership, and later when notarising their will. After the quotation, you have skipped over the remainder of the paragraph on how the Friend's use of their former name in the will, while intended as legal manoeuvring, was later used to contest it as fraudulent over ten years after their death.

You've also skipped over a lengthy paragraph that takes up the remainder of page 595 and spills over to the start of 597, which has discussion on how the deliberate use of the Friend's former name was an attempt at denying who they were within their religious ministry. Religiosity aside, this has obvious parallels to what many trans and non-binary people face today, as despite the passage of some 220+ years, many still use the former name of a trans or non-binary person to deny them agency over their own personhood.

Now I could do the same for all of your quotations. However if I did so, we would be here all evening, and this already lengthy discussion would be even longer. Regardless I have to ask, when you are reading the pages I have listed above and selecting quotations from them, why have you skipped over the surrounding context and not made any reference to it or summary of it?

In theory, yours is less restrictive than Trystan's, but as Y is effectively a subset of X they are equivalent. Respectfully, I think you've misunderstood both mine and Trystan's proposal. For the sake of convenience my proposal is through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources, and Trystan's proposal is is established through discussion of the name in high quality sources. Breaking this down, both proposals restrict the inclusion criteria to content present in high quality sources. My proposal then puts a further restriction on it by requiring either in-depth analysis or in-depth discussion of the name to be present in those sources. The in-depth qualifier applies to both discussion or analysis of the name. That's a very high bar, and I acknowledged it as such in my !vote above. Trystan's proposal however removes the in-depth qualifier and requires only discussion of the name in high quality sources. This is a lower barrier to inclusion than my proposal, because it just requires the presence of a discussion, regardless of the depth of that discussion, to be present in the relevant sources. It is still however still a higher barrier than mere verifiability. Trystan acknowledged that this is a lower barrier when proposing it, as he opposed my proposal as too high of a barrier. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

On page 594 you have skipped over an entire paragraph on how the use of a specific name to refer to the Friend "indicated whether one was part of the community of the saved or part of the "wicked world"". That content contextualises what you've quoted in 13, and also includes a demonstrative example from the memoirs of a child whose parents were followers of the Friend.

Focusing on just one example to simplify the discussion, can you explain how this context involves discussion of the name? My reading is that it is a discussion of how language divided the "saved" from the "wicked", and as part of that discussed how the "saved" used their preferred name and the "wicked" used their former name, but that isn't discussion of name itself - no more than an article mentioning how a trans persons sibling continued to use their birth name would be discussion of the name.

Regardless I have to ask, when you are reading the pages I have listed above and selecting quotations from them, why have you skipped over the surrounding context and not made any reference to it or summary of it? Because I didn't consider the context to change whether the sections I believed you were referring to involved discussion of the name? If you did, it would have been better for you to provide the quotations and summaries rather than relying on me to do so.

The in-depth qualifier applies to both discussion or analysis of the name. I interpreted it as applying only to the analysis, but I see now how you interpreted it to apply to both. BilledMammal (talk) 01:48, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

can you explain how this context involves discussion of the name? Put succinctly, the context is discussing how different groups of people used the name. It is there to establish understanding, so that when Larson notes the accounting of Huldah Davis, the reader can contextualise which group Davis and her parents belonged to (ie, followers of the Friend). Discussion on the use of a name is discussion of an aspect of the name.

If you did, it would have been better for you to provide the quotations and summaries I've already said why I did not wish to quote from the source materials in a manner such as you did, as to provide the full context it would amount to a copyvio from the more recently published sources. I thought I had adequately summarised however, especially as I gave the page numbers where the entirety of the content appeared.

Because I didn't consider the context to change whether the sections I believed you were referring to involved discussion of the name? The context is part of the discussion. It's present to help readers understand the fullness of the text. To go back to accounting of Huldah Davis mentioned above and on page 594, if I had just quoted In her recollections, Davis refers to Jemima Wilkinson but is careful to note that her parents, followers of the Friend, always referred to "the Friend," and Davis uses the community's language through most of her account. would you have understood that Davis' use of the community's language implied a sense of belonging that significantly outlasted the existence of that community, but despite the sense of belonging her use of the Friend's former name indicated that Davis was not a follower of the Friend's ministry? Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:06, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on the use of a name is discussion of an aspect of the name. In practice, I don't believe that discussion of the use of the name will be interpreted as discussion of the name, and I think that if you intended to propose that such discussion would be sufficient for inclusion your proposal should read established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the use of the name in high quality sources/established through discussion of the use of the name in high quality sources

I also think that such an interpretation would make the proposal far more inclusive than you intended it to be. For example, an article mentioning how a trans persons sibling continued to use their birth name is discussion of the use of a name, as is an article mentioning that prior to transitioning the subject was called their birth name.

BilledMammal (talk) 02:24, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I think that if you intended to propose that such discussion would be sufficient for inclusion your proposal should read ... If I wanted to limit my proposal to high quality sources that contain in-depth discussion on the use of the former name, then I would have done so. However that would arguably be an even higher standard than what I proposed, because that sort of discussion is exceedingly rare. My proposal is broader than that, as it allows for other types of in-depth discussion or analysis of the former name.

For example, an article mentioning how a trans persons sibling continued to use their birth name is discussion of the use of a name I feel like this is somewhat of a strawman. While it is a sad fact that many trans and non-binary people have transphobic family members who refuse to use that person's chosen name and pronouns, if a high quality source was to include this it would be something in the form of something like X's sibling(s) were not supportive of their transition, and in the case of a modern high quality source (something written in the last ten or so years) would very likely exclude the former name when doing so. Such a mention would certainly not be in-depth enough to meet my proposal, nor would it even meet the lower threshold from Trystan's proposal.

as is an article mentioning that prior to transitioning the subject was called their birth name Hard disagree. In either Trystan's or my threshold there has to be at minimum a discussion or analysis of the name. Simply mentioning it once, or even using it throughout as the primary name when referring to the subject would not be a discussion or analysis of the name. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

If I wanted to limit my proposal to high quality sources that contain in-depth discussion on the use of the former name, then I would have done so. Then it should have read established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name or use of the name in high quality sources/established through discussion of the name or use of the name in high quality sources. It doesn't change my point, which is that you are expecting people to interpret "discussion of the name" far more broadly than the wording would suggest it be interpreted.

Simply mentioning it once, or even using it throughout as the primary name when referring to the subject would not be a discussion or analysis of the name. I agree, but that wasn't my hypothetical and your interpretation of discussion of the name includes discussion of the use of the name. BilledMammal (talk) 03:23, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't change my point, which is that you are expecting people to interpret "discussion of the name" far more broadly than the wording would suggest it be interpreted. I could just as easily turn that back, and say that you're interpreting it in a much narrower manner than many of the RfC's participants. I would also posit that your wording is unclear, because in-depth use of the name is somewhat of a nonsensical phrase. But it seems to stem from that you perhaps consider that a discussion or analysis on the use of the name is a distinct topic from discussion or analysis of the name? Whereas I see it as a subtype of a discussion or analysis of the name?

I agree, but that wasn't my hypothetical Unless I missed a step (it is late and I really should go to sleep), it certainly wasn't my hypothetical either. The first time I see it appearing in this discussion is your comment at 01:48, 26 June 2023. If it's not your hypothetical, and if it's not mine, then whose hypothetical is this? Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I could just as easily turn that back, and say that you're interpreting it in a much narrower manner than many of the RfC's participants. Of the editors who have provided information on how they interpret it, most have interpreted it in a narrower fashion than you have - and even if all those editors are interpreting it "incorrectly" the fact that so many have done so demonstrates that the wording is flawed.

I would also posit that your wording is unclear, because "in-depth use of the name" is somewhat of a nonsensical phrase. It would be intended to be read as in-depth discussion of use of the name/discussion of use of the name, but I don't think the specifics of how it would need to be worded are relevant - the point is that the current wording is flawed.

Regarding the hypothetical, my hypothetical was a discussion of the use of the former name. However, I don't think it will be productive to discuss that further; your interpretation of the proposal differs significantly from my interpretation or the interpretation of many other editors, and that is where many - though not all - of the issues with the proposal originate from. BilledMammal (talk) 04:44, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

If that's all that takes for the "name" to be "discussed in depth", then there could very easily be situations in which the former name isn't even stated and yet would have sufficient coverage. Those passages are talking about the existence of a former name, not about the specific name itself. JoelleJay (talk) 00:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Can I ask, with respect to "all it takes", did you read the pages from the sources I listed, or was it BilledMammal's quotations? If it's the later, then I would refer you to my reply above with respect to significant amount of context that is missing from the quotations. If it's the former, then I would respectfully disagree. Those paragraphs are discussing the former name, the legal and social challenges that arose from the Friend's discarding of the former name, and how during the Friend's lifetime and for a period after the use of one name or the other denoted whether someone was a follower of the Friend's ministry, or someone who was seemingly opposed to it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I interpret your proposal as referring to discussion of the name itself, rather than discussion of a name change, which would probably be found in almost any source that covers the subject's transition. The latter would indeed be a better inclusion criterion: the deadname is mentioned in multiple RS that discuss the subject's transition. JoelleJay (talk) 23:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment/alt - Should the proposal specify this policy applies to the lede sentence? That's how I initially read it when I voted support because of the focus on born as, which usually happens in the lede. That's more an alt topic name than "content". Per WP:NNC, other content in the article body should probably just be decided case by case based on whether the information is WP:DUE. The void century 12:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

So, this particular interoperation of NNC—as not just saying that WP:NOTABLE, by itself, does not apply to content ... but as saying that any policy or guideline that does employ the notability criteria in relation to a content issue is invalid ... is a pretty extreme one. I've only seen it suggested by one other editor. As it stands, MOS:GENDERID calls for different treatment between living trans persons who were notable under their prior name and who were not notable under that name: and it's very clear that it applies beyond the lead. "If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name." As I understand the proposal, and based on the last RFC, no this proposal would not just apply to the lead.--Jerome Frank Disciple 12:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. I wonder if there would be consensus to update MOS:GENDERID to remove the word living so it applies to all trans people, living and deceased (as an alternative to this proposal)? It seems like the current guideline addresses many scenarios that this proposal doesn't. The void century 13:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it should be even further modified to remove the word "notable" since it is in direct conflict and a violation of the notability guidance. Huggums537 (talk) 13:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@Huggums537 I think this is more related to WP:OTHERNAMES, which relates to the notability guideline. The new guideline would ask-- is the subject still WP:NOTABLE if the article only covered pre-transition (when the deadname was used)? If the answer is yes, then the deadname is a valid alternate name, and would meet WP:POFR as well. This is a narrower interpretation of alt names than usual, but I think it makes sense in this context. The void century 16:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The problem isn't that we are asking if a subject is notable or not, (because asking if a subject is notable is perfectly fine) it's that we are asking if the subject should be included within an article based on this notability. Notability is reserved for determining if a subject should have an article, not be included within one. In other words, if the answer is yes the subject is notable, then it deserves to have an article. That is what notability is for - to figure out if subjects are worthy of articles, not if a person, place, thing, or a name can be mentioned in an article. Huggums537 (talk) 07:37, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

It's a huge problem that not only do we have a bunch of people who don't understand this, but we also have [some] deletionists who understand it perfectly fine, but have no issue with propagating the misunderstanding since it favors their cause. As a result of this, we have people either intentionally or mistakenly inserting incorrect or conflicting information in our guidance such as the incorrect mention of notability in the OTHERNAMES link you provided. It's a perfect example of why WP:IAR is probably one of the best of our WP:5 Pillars. Huggums537 (talk) 07:50, 25 June 2023 (UTC) Updated on 14:05, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm ignoring the Huggums bait. I'm pretty sure he's the only user who interprets WP:NNC the way he does, and it's not worth diverting this discussion. I asked if he wanted to start a RFC to remove "notable", above, and he said no ... so that's all there is to discuss.

As to your comment re: "living"‚ funny you should mention that! We just recently had an RFC where that was proposed, along with a few other options. (In short, as to the question of "When should the deadname of a deceased person who was not notable prior to transitioning be mentioned?", the options were "Always / Sometimes / Never". The "Never" option just removed "living" from the current guideline. When that discussion closed, however, the closer found that there was no consensus for any of the options presented—rather, he found, there was a consensus for some alternative approach that would split the difference between Option 2 ("Sometimes") and Option 3 ("Never"). This RFC was started to try to find that split approach.--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

My view is not as extreme or as rare as JFD is making it out to be. JoelleJay essentially argued the same thing by making the point that this proposal is trying to apply the same notability criteria to a mere piece of content that it does an entire article. The current MOS:GENDERID does the same thing against WP:NNC. Huggums537 (talk) 13:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm also going to add to this that SMcCandlish made almost exactly the same point before I even entered into this conversation, and they have had knowledge of the concept before I even became a regular editor so this concept isn't unusual or rare by any means. It is just misunderstood by those who are not fully familiar with the guidelines, and that is to be expected since there is so much WP:CREEP you can't possibly know them all. Huggums537 (talk) 07:12, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

> The current MOS:GENDERID does the same thing
So the proposal follows an already existing example in the current MOS. Excellent! – .Raven  .talk 19:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

No, it means we have a WP:POLICYFORK which is not permissible and must be fixed. Guidelines don't get to override policies, and guidelines even conflicting with other guidelines have to be repaired.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:02, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

While I don't agree that we have a POLICYFORK issue here, if we do have one, we've had it since July 2015. The first time anything remotely like the current version of GENDERID was added to MOS:BIO it read In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should only be included in the lead sentence if the person was notable prior to coming out. One can introduce the name with either "born" or "formerly". In the intervening 8 years, despite many discussions and RfCs on the guideline, many of which focused on whether to include or exclude a deadname, prior to this RfC NNC had been mentioned three times; by Godsy in June 2016, by Rabbitflyer in August 2021, and by Iamreallygoodatcheckers in August 2021. In all three instances the concerns were either dismissed by other argumentation, or not otherwise remarked upon by discussion participants.

However, I said I don't agree that we have a POLICYFORK issue, and that is because I believe there is a misunderstanding here of what the current version of GENDERID (or my proposal) means when it says If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page. The guideline does not apply WP:N to content, instead the guideline is using N as a shorthand way of saying something akin to If a living transgender or non-binary person changed their name prior to an article about them being created, it should not be included in any page. In this instance, N is effectively an easy to define cut-off date for when a former name can be included for a living trans or non-binary person. It is a date and time. If a living person has an article about them, and transitions after that article was written, then we likely include their former name as they are very likely a public figure and WP:BLPNAME would not apply. If instead that person transitioned prior to us writing an article about them, then we likely will not include their former name, because at that point their former name is a privacy issue and BLPNAME applies in part. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:05, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you -- I read it the same way, and I'm very confused on why some people think there's a conflict. The void century 02:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

If a living transgender or non-binary person changed their name prior to an article about them being created, it should not be included in any page. The problem here is that you are trying to shift the focus on a date and time, but the date and time doesn't matter. Neither does "living" or "dead". What matters is that whatever the time and date might be, you are wanting to use notability as the criteria to include content "in a page". That is the conflict. The before or after is completely irrelevant because you can't use notability as a criteria to include content "in a page" either way so date and time means nothing. There is no "cutoff date" for this rule. If you are saying the inclusion of content within a page depends on whether a previous article existed or not, then it is even worse than using notability as a criteria because you would actually be using notability of something else as a criteria which is like off the charts nuts. Huggums537 (talk) 07:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@The void century: I wonder if there would be consensus to update MOS:GENDERID to remove the word living so it applies to all trans people, living and deceased (as an alternative to this proposal)? That was topic 2, option 3 in the RfC that was held earlier this month. While it had the highest level of support of any of the options, it did not have enough support on its own to form a consensus. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I suggested this above, but one alternative that might be more palatable is to require deadnames be documented in multiple HQRS that provide SIGCOV of the person. This is a lower bar than requiring the person be notable pre-transition, but higher than just being mentioned in RS. It also restricts deadname inclusion to only those subjects whose deadnames are likely to be more widely known already (by virtue of appearing in several pieces of SIGCOV of the individual).

Another alternative, or addition to the above, would be to require the deadnames appear across WP:SUSTAINED coverage. JoelleJay (talk) 03:00, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this kind of smart compromise thinking is where this discussion should be going, instead of polarized entrenchment.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:05, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

If you add WP:HQRS should be secondary sources, this is essentially WP:GNG. That seems like more of a fork than just using the word "notability", but if it raises less alarms for others, then it's fine with me. The void century 14:08, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this has always been my argument. That it is just notability without the name... Huggums537 (talk) 14:13, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I would prefer if they used a valid WP:Content policy for governing stuff within articles such as WP:NPOV, WP:DUE or WP:V. Huggums537 (talk) 21:22, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@The void century, I don't follow? Yes if the sources were also independent and secondary they would contribute to GNG, which the article subject should usually be meeting anyway. If multiple post-transition sources that provide SIGCOV of the subject also happen to mention the deadname, then the deadname would qualify for inclusion, even if it itself is not discussed in depth. JoelleJay (talk) 00:51, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Your proposal: require deadnames be documented in multiple HQRS that provide SIGCOV of the person
• WP:GNG: has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.

I don't follow how these are different. Is the distinction you're making that the deadname itself is documented in the sources? Presumably, if a person was notable prior to transition, both the person and the deadname would be documented in the sources.

I understand now. Your proposal lowers the bar to say that in-depth analysis or discussion of the name are not required, nor notability pre-transition. Instead, all that's required is multiple reliable sources mention the deadname, as long as the subject itself receives SIGCOV. The void century 02:56, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I'd support this alternate wording. "In-depth analysis" felt too strong to me, and it's why I was neutral before. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 20:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@The void century, yes, if the deadname is mentioned within multiple pieces of SIGCOV RS of the subject, then it could be included. Mentions in non-significant coverage wouldn't count. A mention in a single SIGCOV source wouldn't count.

Another alternative could also be mentions in sources that discuss the subject's transition. JoelleJay (talk) 00:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

"multiple reliable sources mention the deadname, as long as the subject itself receives SIGCOV" – that would also work for me, notwithstanding other issues I raised with the wording (like unnecessarily lengthy blathering), above.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:55, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment/alt - I think the entire issue could be resolved much more simply by just deleting the word "living" from the entirety of MOS:GENDERID. It avoids the definite confusion and possible mandatory-edit-on-death silliness of differing deadname notability standards for living and dead persons, in favor of simply holding BLP extremely closely (as usual) to the unified standard. Thepsyborg (talk) 14:43, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Thinking through the difficulties

Even under this proposal, if the deadname is included, it's included immediately. This leads to issues such as Wendy Carlos - universally known as that name for the last fourty years - being deadnamed in the first sentence.

If we look beyond trans individuals, it's pretty normal in articles on actors or singers, where a person is basically only known by one name throughout their life - say, Tina Turner or W. H. Kendal to include their birth name, even when it's of very limited notability. But those names have no capacity for harm. And note that Kendal's birthname isn't mentioned until the second paragraph, which is honestly more respect than we show the average trans person, when there's not even an indication Kendal disliked his birthname.

I'm rather against this proposal, as it all but codifies deadnaming people in the first sentence. There's going to be cases where people came out as trans long after their career was all-but over. Dee Palmer, say, might need to do that just so you know who she is. But can't we state that the more of their career, the more of their notability is seperated from their transness, the further into their article the appearance of their deadname should be, bottoming out at simple non-inclusion?

It's weird to have this binary form where we either show all possible respect and care as regards deadnaming, or absolutely zero respect, policy all but requires we out them in the first few words. The examples given are probably justified - known most of their lives under the deadname, and much of their notability predates it - but that's not going to always be the case. Wendy Carlos is a good example where the deadname probably needs a brief mention somewhere, but almost all commentary on her for decades has used her preferred name, so including it right at the start isn't justifiable. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.4% of all FPs.} 08:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with all of this, and would like to add that I feel like we've in general been assigning too much encyclopedic value to previous names.

One specific bad example is Tokugawa Ieyasu, a man who changed his name several times throughout his lifetime. We go into a level of detail about this and commitment to swapping the names we use as he changes them that almost no other source would, because it's frankly very confusing. (It's also a little bit ahistorical? Very few people at the time would have been calling this man by his personal name, so the really important name change is Matsudaira to Tokugawa, and it's weird that the article emphasizes the change in personal name instead.) Loki (talk) 17:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I also agree with Adam Cuerden; I made much the same point earlier. And yes, there's too much foregrounding of former/formal/full names generally. Sandro Botticelli begins "Alessandro di Mariano di Vanni Filipepi (c. 1445 – May 17, 1510)", which is excessive for the opening. But that's probably a separate discussion. EddieHugh (talk) 17:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

While I agree that we shouldn't be deadnaming in the first sentence, though it seems to be standard practice across many trans and non-binary biographies, I'm not sure where the idea that this proposal is codifying it comes from. While the examples all come from their respective article's first sentences, the same is true for the second set of examples that are currently present in MOS:GENDERID. The only specific guidance on how to introduce the former name, with the use of "born" or "formerly" as contextually relevant, also mirrors the exact same guidance that is already present in GENDERID's third paragraph.

If there's a consensus that this is a problem due to giving undue prominence to the former name(s), it has already has a wider effect than what would be covered under this proposal, as the exact same implication already exists for living trans and non-binary individuals who were notable under their former name(s). That suggests to me that if we need to resolve this, then we need to resolve it in a manner that would have effect on both paragraphs (the already existing, and proposed one). Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sideswipe9th: Put simply, if both examples given show it being done in the first sentence, no text in the proposal discusses alternatives to it being in the first sentence or when it should be, then it's a de facto codification. Examples serve as a template for how things should be implemented, after all; that's the point of them.

Add to this that we know it's already a trend that happens, so the examples are reinforcing the trend. If any example was included that showed a deadname being included further into the article, it'd avoid setting a standard; this could also be done by simply saying that other options exist, and that how prominent a deadname should be can vary. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.4% of all FPs.} 02:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden: Unfortunately I'm not sure this is something we can solve, at least not without re-writing some articles. When compared against cisgender biographies, we don't have that many trans and non-binary biographies to begin with. When we're already limiting the pool to find examples that sufficiently illustrate specific criteria from the proposed guideline, to then add the further restriction that it also has to be a biography where the name is not mentioned in the lead sentence, you're asking us to find a needle in a small haystack. Short of re-writing a relevant article to meet this extra request, this is I think something where seeking perfection is the enemy of the good. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Could just say that where the name is mentioned need not be in the first sentence, but if it's in the example and not stated it needn't be that way, it is codifying that usage as a rule. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.5% of all FPs.} 15:42, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree that "if included, the deadname must be in the first five words (Current Name, biologically Old Name,...)", like some people treat the rule as being [although it is not that], is not a one-size-fits-all approach; I support putting once-notable deadnames that have long been unused by anyone where they're more relevant. I've seen articles mention marginally notable, long-unused deadnames (of e.g. actors who did one minor film pre-transition, and many major films post-transition) in ==Early career==, which seems more sensible than putting it in the first five words. (I've seen editors remove the name entirely from such articles, too, which also seems reasonable.)
In the past, some people argued "what if I'm reading a decades-old news story from before Wendy Carlos transitioned, it mentions her under her former name, I look that up but only read the first five words, decide not to read anything else, decline to contemplate why my search for a male name got redirected to Wendy Carlos, and as a result of these decisions would be left confused if the name weren't mentioned in those first few words?!"; if that's a problem, we could make the deadname redirect to the part of the article where it's mentioned rather than just the article overall. But we already redirect a lot of e.g. placenames in one language to another language, without always mentioning the redirect in the lead — sometimes it's only lower in a section on Names, or even absent.
But since this RfC is to pin down when to mention a deadname of a dead person, where to mention the deadname of even a living person seems like a separate issue, no? I also don't see anything in this RfC that says the name must be in the lead. Elsewhere, the guideline says it can be in the lead only if it's notable, but as discussed on the guideline's talk page, even that is not "it must be in the lead if...". I think we could start to article-talk-page discussion about repositioning Wendy's deadname even under the current guidelines, and certainly independent of this RfC about dead people. -sche (talk) 20:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Biologically? -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 20:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I think that's a joke intended to poke fun at editors who insist on this. Loki (talk) 00:48, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Genetically. Which I think means that all valid names must be composed of the letters A, C, G, and T. – .Raven  .talk 19:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The problem I see with redirecting to a section of the article is that people searching for a deadname likely are looking for information about the person rather than the name, so sending them to information about the name isn't that helpful. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 20:51, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I could see it depending on the context. If it's likely someone coming through an old redirect isn't aware of the new name, it could be helpful to plop them in the section where the transition is explained so it's clear why they're here. I don't think that necessarily fits all situations like this cleanly though. Loki (talk) 03:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Every redirect should lead to the portion of the article that is most likely to be helpful to the majority of people using that redirect. Where in the article that is can only be determined in the context of both article and redirect. Thryduulf (talk) 13:37, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

• I would also note that all our other alternative name info is included at the start, so if someone with any experience of reading wikipedia articles (that is, almost everyone) is looking for that information and it's not at the start - they'll probably assume it just doesn't exist. Adam's assumption of what will happen is almost certainly correct, but I stand in the side that thinks that will normally be a net benefit. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:20, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

  That's a lot of assumptions. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:55, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

• More guidance on where to mention a deadname in an article would be helpful. But here too, one-size-fits-all is the wrong approach. For someone like Caitlin Jenner, she was notable enough as “Bruce” that we should mention that name in the first sentence. However, that is not going to be the case for others. In many cases it would be more appropriate to place the mention in its historical context - ie in an “Early life” section or Similar. There is no need to put everything in the first sentence. Blueboar (talk) 19:34, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• I agree about the issues with the current way deadnames are included. I'm starting to like the idea of putting deadnames in a footnote to the lede sentence in general. This would put them in a predictable location for readers, but also avoid giving too much emphasis and prevent them from being snippeted onto the front page google results for the article subject. small jars tc 13:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  But please keep in mind of pre-notability deadnames, per MOS:GENDERID:

  If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name.

  – .Raven  .talk 02:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Not sure where best to put this observation, but should we have an RFC at some point on non-trans related personal name changes and whether those are necessarily encyclopedically significant either? I've seen that comparison come up in this RFC and it feels like a good idea to clear up that area; do we really need to mention the old name of a non-trans person who changed their name and then became notable, with whom sources do not typically mention the old name? Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:15, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Personally I think that in theory that could be useful, but only if it meant we could start getting rid of the trans-specific policies activists have managed to push over the years in favor of generally-applicable policies where someone identifying as transgender factors in via things like Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Presumption in favor of privacy rather than via explicit exceptions. But I doubt that would be able happen. Anti-trans activists exist who want to include unnecessarily detail as a slur against the transgender person, while pro-trans activists react by going to the opposite extreme, hiding as much as possible that the transgender person had ever publicly presented as anything other than their current gender. Anomie⚔ 12:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

    Anti-trans "activism" is just bigotry. I don't think these two sides are equivalent at all. The void century 15:39, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Deadnames & dead people - an idea

• Ok, I have been thinking about this a bit and would like to propose something… when determining whether to mention a deadname for LIVING trans people we say to give significantly more weight sources written AFTER transition.
  So… when determining whether to mention the deadname of a DECEASED trans person, shouldn’t we (similarly) give significantly more weight to sources written AFTER the person’s death?
  This would (I think) help to resolve at least some of the issues discussed above. Blueboar (talk) 13:16, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  That's a really intriguing thought! It's definitely interesting, although I'm not sure MOS:GENDERID currently says to give more weight to post-transition resources as to whether or not to include a deadname of a living trans person ("when determining whether to mention a deadname for LIVING trans people we say to give significantly more weight sources written AFTER transition"). I think the idea is that someone who is not notable pre-transition won't have that many pre-transition sources, not that post-transition sources are given more weight. That said, whether or not that's what we do it for living trans persons, I'm intrigued about whether a post-death sources rule could work for deceased trans persons. Would love to hear more thoughts--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:22, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  Hmm...I don't know that I follow the logic...? when we're determining what name(s) to use or mention, the difference between pre- and post-transition sources that makes it more useful to look at one of those than the other is that sources from before a transition simply didn't have the option of using the post-transition name, so we can't tell whether they would've chosen to exclusively include the post-transition name, or to use the post-transition name while mentioning the former name, or what. But what difference do we expect to exist between (post-transition) sources from before vs after someone died, as far as how they cover transition? I guess I'd like if we could get data on whether post-death sources actually tend to do anything different with the names than pre-death sources, to be able to determine whether this would even change anything (in any direction).
  I also want to note the difficulties this might run into with people who are notable when they're young (e.g. musicians or athletes) and then fade into obscurity. If twenty sources about someone are from when they were making headlines at age 20-30, three are from when they wrote a memoir and got some press at age 80, and one is an obituary after they die at age 91, I don't know that it'd make any sense to say "well, the other sources (do/don't) mention the deadname, but the one post-death source does the opposite, let's weigh it more heavily" (regardless of whether that one source is including or excluding a name!). (Perhaps we could say, OK, only weight post-death sources more heavily if there are N of them, or they constitute N percent of available sources, but again, I guess I'd just like data on whether this would actually have any effect, or whether most post-death sources do the same thing as pre-death sources when it comes to deadnames.) -sche (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  Wow—great points, particularly regarding persons who fade into obscurity (but are still notable).--Jerome Frank Disciple 22:51, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  I haven't read the full discussion above, but what cases exactly are we covering here? The living trans people we cover right now will die in the future, are we suddenly switching from post-transition sources to post-death sources for the name (though I doubt this actually would have an affect on anything)? Is this for cases where there's little to no coverage of the person after transition but before death? Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:09, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Bludgeoning

This discussion is getting very long and there is an element of bludgeoning going on, with the most prolific contributor having made 70 comments. I suggest that editors who have already expressed their position refrain from commenting on new !votes. BilledMammal (talk) 07:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Out of morbid curiosity, is there a tool to check how many comments I've made to a discussion? —Locke Cole • t • c 19:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Easiest way I've found is to open the RfC section in source view, and then use your web browser to search for the wikitext representation of the signature you're interested in. You've made 34 comments so far, including the one directly above this reply. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I might need to ask on WP:VPT, but I swear there was a tool that could automate checking how many comments were made by each editor and other statistics (like min/max/avg characters added, etc). Was just curious if @BilledMammal had a pointer. =) —Locke Cole • t • c 03:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I just use regex to look for user talk pages; no fancy tool, sorry. My method does have issues in that there are a very small number of editors who don't link their talk page when making comments and so it doesn't consider their comments, but the number is very few. BilledMammal (talk) 03:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:RECENT and deadnames

• Consider the following hypothetical: A young person (at this point not-notable) transitions. This trans person subsequently goes into politics, runs for Congress and eventually becomes Speaker of the House. Ok… according to GENDERID, we would not mention this person’s deadname, as the subject was not notable pre-transition.

Now, several years after the subject dies, a detailed biography is written. The biographer goes into depth (say a full chapter) about the subject’s pre-transition life, and how this influenced his/her/their subsequent career.

Would this biography change our evaluation of what makes the the subject notable, or when the subject became notable? I don’t think so. The subject is still notable for becoming a politician as an adult.

However, the existence of this biography does mean that their early (pre-transition) life can now be given more WEIGHT and coverage in our article.

Now… suppose the biographer chose to consistently use the subject’s deadname while covering this pre-transition portion of the subject’s life - switching to the post-transition name in historical context. It’s not discussion “about” the deadname (it is discussion about the subject, using the deadname). Does this (should this) affect whether we mention the deadname… and how we mention it? I think it does. Blueboar (talk) 15:48, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

It would certainly be a datapoint, but only one of many. We would need to consider the general tone and quality of the work, any biases or agendas the author may have (an attack by a political opponent would carry much less weight than a neutral evaluation by a leading scholar), whether and how other sources (don't) use and/or mention the deadname, what the subjects preferences are regarding the use or mention of that name, and what contemporary practice is regarding name changes of all types at the time (society and language changes after all). So while this might be an interesting hypothetical to consider, there is nowhere near enough information to provide anything remotely resembling an definitive answer and so its utility to the present situation seems limited at best. Thryduulf (talk) 21:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

That is actually a really GOOD answer to my questions. Perhaps The problem we have been having with all of our debates over GENDERID is that we have been trying to come up with a one-size-fits-all policy, for something that will never fit into any one size. Perhaps the issue of Whether to mention a deadname, - and (if so) when and how to do so - will always be case specific, and There are simply too many unique factors involved for us to write meaningful guidance. Blueboar (talk) 21:50, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Consider the possibility that this will be applied to everyone not just trans/enby subjects

There are those who would apply the TG/NB rules we already have to everyone, so we need to consider the very real possibility that this is going to end up being a general policy change, or at least a nexus of debate about making such a general change to our privacy versus public information standards, and not just one specific to a particular narrow class of subjects. See e.g.: "This is not a gender identity issue but I see no reason not to extend the same courtesy of privacy to cisgendered persons who are not notable under their birth names and request they be omitted." [4] This is by no means the first time I've encountered such reasoning. There is every reason to expect that whatever wording is hammered out here is going to rather forcefully be argued to apply to everyone.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:48, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

But we do do that already. I've been involved in several discussions over the years where it was decided to omit someone's birth name because the person changed their name on purpose to avoid using it. The only exceptions to that in past discussions have been people whose old name was still being actively used in reliable sources, so the non-notable name claim didn't seem to apply. And even in some of those cases we did still omit the name anyways. So that already has been de facto policy even if we didn't have it explicitly written down as such. Silverseren^C 19:54, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Note the important word "request" in ... extend the same courtesy of privacy to cisgendered persons who ... request [their birthname] be omitted. There's a big difference between excluding a birth name by default (eg in the case of trans people) and on request (cisgender/Teller). If we are to have the same rule for cis and trans/NB people, is that rule "exclude by default" or "exclude by request"? Mitch Ames (talk) 06:16, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ongoing edit warring to the MoS section in question

I think the community needs to be made aware that some participants of this discussion began a slow moving edit war to introduce substantially the same language as discussed above into the MoS despite the "no consensus" result of this discussion. It began the same day as the close, and the language has now been re-added for a third time. Substantial efforts have been made on the talk page by a number of editors (myself included) to explain to the editors trying to force the addition in that this is inappropriate without further discussion and express consensus for the addition before hand, especially in light of the scale of the last two RfCs and the divisiveness of the issue, but these attempts seem to be falling on deaf ears at this point.

I personally am done engaging with the IDHT and am leaving that discussion. I'm also not personally inclined to escalate the matter to AE, ANI, ANEW. But behavioural issues put to the side, I do think the matter needs community eyes on it if only to see that the input above is not ignored. Perhaps someone's approach to urging restraint will be more successful than mine. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 05:44, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

It is not "substantially the same", it completely removes the thing most opposers (including me and the editor who instated the new wording) objected to in the above RfC: the deadname itself receiving SIGCOV. The proposed text instead asks that a deadname be mentioned in multiple sources that give non-trivial coverage of the transperson. JoelleJay (talk) 06:08, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it does. And for that reason, I for one may very well have supported it in a community consensus discussion--and may yet do so. And there's no telling how many other opposers above may switch their !vote on the basis of that one change. However, this project does not operate upon predicted consensus, but rather demonstrable consensus. Much of the language is still identical between the versions, and in light of the scale of the above discussion and the controversial nature of the debate up until this point, broad community consensus needs to precede that change, not follow it. If the argument is truly compelling it will survive process, but one or two editors insisting it is "good enough now" and something has to be done right this minute is not sufficient process to force the change into the guidance page, based upon mere predictions of how this or that editor thinks the community/the !voters above would "definitely" support the new version of the language. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I again object to the WP:ASPERSIONS of calling a single revert, and to an edit that was clearly against consensus, "edit warring".

You're trying to remove language that the talk page discussed extensively, agreed on, and has been in the guideline unchanged for a week. If you don't like it, talk about it on the talk page, don't just remove it. Loki (talk) 02:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Making controversial changes to guidance pages forcing one-sided views either before or during an ongoing discussion debating what kind of changes should be made is an edit warring-like "battlegrounding" mentality even if it has been seven days or less than 3 reverts. It is a bad way of doing business. Huggums537 (talk) 06:52, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

That's a blatant misrepresentation of the facts Loki, and I think you know it. There was no discussion:

• BilledMammal inserted the language into the policy the very same day that the above RfC closed with a "no consensus" (and mostly opposed) result on very similar language. No discussion took place before that addition, let alone the kind of broad community consensus necessary to set aside the above results.
• So that edit was (quite predictably) reverted (by David_Eppstein). Less than twenty minutes later. Not a week (though it would not have mattered in this case if it was six weeks).
• At this point, BilledMammal (who really should not have made even that first edit without establishing consensus for the proposed wording first) should have dropped the stick and waited for a firm consensus before reintroducing the language again. Instead they reintroduced another slight variant less than ten minutes later. Yes, that is WP:edit warring. Maybe not in intention (which is important), but under the relevant policy, it was. I'm sorry to pull BM's name up here, because they are discussing now on the TP, but in order to clarify the chain of events as you have suggested them, I'm afraid I have to point these details out.
• A week later, I noticed what had happened and reverted that second reintroduction of the disputed language. I reverted despite the fact that I support the language in principle, and intend to make that support official if there is another RfC or other broad community discussion. I didn't do it out of opposition to the language but because the action was taken out of process and did not respect the community consensus enshrined above by the feedback of so many editors and the administrator's closure.
• BilledMammal then saw that their present course was not getting anywhere and wisely returned to the talk page to seek consensus, rather than trying to force the language into the policy. It's at this point that you entered to continue the edit war under your own onus. You re-introduced the disputed content for a third time, despite the fact that there was an ongoing discussion on the talk page. This is unambiguously edit warring under the express wording of WP:EW, and I'm tired of debating the point with you: look at policy if you don't believe me.

Now, you keep insisting that your edit was justified for two reasons:

1) It's not edit warring because you didn't violate WP:3RR. But as has been explained to you at tedious, patient length on the talk page, 3RR is not required for an act to violate WP:EW. And yours did. No WP:aspersions have been cast in that respect.

2) You say that because BilledMammal's second edit to reintroduce the disputed change wasn't caught and reverted for a week, it therefor became the "status quo version". I'm sorry, but no. Just no. That's not how a "status quo" version of anything, let alone an important piece of policy guidance, gets formed. I don't know where you got the notion that running down the clock for a single week gets the language that status, but the idea is nonsense. We wouldn't consider that sufficient status quo effect for what the middle name of a niche BLP subjext is. Nevermind resolving the number one most controversial issue in the MoS at the present time in this project's development.

Now, I'm not the only one trying to explain any of the above to on the talk page: literally not one other person is backing your and BM's interpretation of why these edits were justified on the MoS/Biography talk page, and several have expended massive amounts of energy and patience trying to explain why they weren't. My first (and what I intended to be only) comment to you there was genuinely an effort to warn you that you were in risky territory with that edit warring re-addition. It was (whether you believe it or not) a good-natured "alright, it's your show, but I think you'll want to change tact" comment as I left the discussion. But you don't seem to be able to hear that which remotely looks like criticism without firing off rejoinders. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:57, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

And let me be clear as to one thing: I'm done with this issue. I've well exhausted my willingness to keep trying to explain the policies to you. I left the above notice so the community is aware of what is going on: others can oversight the matter from here. But I will say your (and to a lesser extent, BM's) actions have been a miscalculation for more than one reason: not only could you easily have both been dragged to WP:AE over the edit warring on a WP:General sanctions topic, but your choice of strategy is going to hurt you when you are inevitably forced to have the consensus discussion on this language anyway.

You've already driven off one editor (me) who would have been a reliable !vote in support, and I guarantee you that starting this whole affair off with a unilateral effort at forcing of the content into the page, followed by tag team edit warring, is going to look bad in a discussion where you are going to need every !vote you can get. Your tendentiousness at the front end here, and lack of respect for process, may very well end up being the difference that keeps this otherwise meritorious proposal from succeeding. Which is unfortunate. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:57, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

BilledMammal inserted the language into the policy the very same day that the above RfC closed with a "no consensus" (and mostly opposed) result on very similar language You keep asserting this is "very similar language" to the RfC proposal despite seemingly agreeing that it is in fact materially very different, so different that you would actually switch your own !vote to support it. That multiple oppose !voters support this change should be an indication BilledMammal is instating language that functionally reflects the consensus from both this RfC and the one prior that the threshold for inclusion of dead transpeople's pre-notability deadnames should lie somewhere between "documented in multiple RS" and "the deadname guideline for BLPs (never)". We don't need another tiresome RfC to identify the exact words to split that difference. JoelleJay (talk) 23:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I believe I have already explained the distinction and why I would procedurally oppose an edit that I am otherwise in support of, both immediately above and on the talk page, but I'll make one more effort to elucidate. I'll make this detailed for clarity, but it's also going to be last effort to explain:

You and I may agree that the altered wording makes all the difference. But that does not empower us to read our interpretation into the !votes of every one of the ninety some-odd participants in the RfC, and to presume that we know how any given participant (let alone the overwhelming majority of them) would !vote on the new language, based on our idiosyncratic reading of their feedback. There so much potential for confirmation bias in such an approach, which is one of numerous reasons why it has never been the way consensus works on this project.

Now I'm sorry that the idea of another large discussion feels exhausting to you. I agree that it is not ideal. Which is probably the reason that numerous respondents to the RfC practically pleaded with the most active editors in this series of discussions not to immediately revive the issue after the close. There was a clear sense that the best thing to do here, if the proposal did not pass, would be to take a breather, let the community digest the feedback, very carefully draft language the community could get behind and then seek consensus again. Unfortunately, that advice went unheeded (though others are pursuing it on the Mos/Biography talk page with regard to other language in GENDERID, thankfully).

But bluntly, the appropriate response to your feeling that you shouldn't have to go through convincing the community again is, in a word, "Tough." Unfortunately that's just how the cookie crumbles on this project sometimes: if you don't get the result you want in a community discussion, your options are to drop the stick or re-form and re-martial your arguments and take another crack. When a discussion is closed as "no consensus", it means "no consensus": it doesn't mean "no consensus on just precisely this language, but if a very small cadre of just three or four editors on one side of the issue feels that they are "really, really" certain that they see agreement for a similar idea somewhere between the lines of the responses in this discussion, go ahead and act on that reading as if there was a close in support of it". Again, not how process works here.

Somewhere between eighty and ninety people took part in the above discussion, and maybe half again as many more in the related threads. You cannot possibly be confident you know for a fact what they would think of your revised language. And anybody who thinks they can needs to check their arrogance and learn a lot more about cognitive bias. Regardless, your confidence does not obviate you and I and a small clique of editors from passing the new proposal before the community's eyes, in light of the result above, the recent and intense history of dispute around the language in question, and the fact that the edit was instantly challenged when someone did try to WP:BOLD it in.

Mind you, you'll find that I never said an RfC was necessarily the only option, but some sort of broad community input was required here. Not just BM and Loki taking your proposal and running with it. That was never going to pass muster in the community's eyes. I want this proposal (or something very close to it) to succeed, as it seems a reasonable compromise to hopefully put this issue to bed for a while. But the way it was approached here is almost the perfect manner in which to see that it doesn't get support, by essentially thumbing the nose at almost everyone who participated in the last discussion, whatever their position.

I hope that makes my position clear, because, as a random respondent to the RfC who is only still discussing any of this because I got caught up in the procedural dispute, I'd like this to be the end of my involvement, unless and until another !vote. My view on the underlying issue is mostly set, and it's in your favour. So give me, and everyone else interested, an opportunity to express it. Or better yet, take a pause for the cause and try to merge your proposal with the GENDERID revamp workshopping taking place on the talk page, and bring it to the community as a complete package. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 03:52, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

User talk page blanking

Hi, I’ve come across a few users who like to blank their own user talk pages rather than archiving them. I know it’s not an official policy or anything, and merely just a guideline, but one of these blanked pages had a lot of discussions, and if any of these discussions were linked to elsewhere, it would be nice to have them still around as reference. Thoughts about possibly changing this guideline/policy? Or possibly a bot that could monitor page blanking, and automatically archiving these discussions? Fork99 (talk) 23:52, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Example: User talk:MetroManMelbourne. Fork99 (talk) 23:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

All the discussions are still there, just in history rather than in archive. A bot that moves things to archives would be breaking any wikilinks that were to the talk page anyway. The idea that people cannot actually blank their own talk page, that we have to keep every drive-by insult to them in an archive page, is a bit of a problem. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 01:14, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, I meant things other than warnings and notices though. Or instead of automatically archiving, a bot could just suggest doing so? Fork99 (talk) 01:18, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

It probably could end up being a strain on the Wikipedia servers and possibly an eyesore on user pages, I do understand. Possible exclusion criteria for a bot not to add a notice would be IP user talk pages, and/or pages without many discussions. Maybe a cut off at say x number of bytes or depending on how old the talk page is. I don’t know, just some thoughts. Fork99 (talk) 01:23, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

I am one of those who routinely blank my talk page. I think of it like I do voicemail on my phone. Once I have read a message, I rarely need to keep it… and if I (or someone else) needs to refer to it in the future - it’s in the page history. By routinely blanking old messages, new messages are highlighted and I will respond to them quickly. Blueboar (talk) 11:19, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, there are some things that are more convenient for others if they are left on the talk page or archived, but creating rules around them, and especially any automated procedures, would be overkill. It's better just to say that anyone can manage their userspace as they see fit and to get on with creating an encyclopedia. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:38, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

I set up archiving of my talk page so long ago, I've long since forgotten how it works. I get the occasional drive-by insult, but it's easier to ignore them than to delete them. Sometimes they get deleted by some {{tps}}, which is fine too. RoySmith (talk) 21:12, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I too am someone who feels disappointed by the choice to blank user talk pages. If I were to view a user's talk page, it would provide helpful insights into their style. However, the deletion of talk pages remains a personal decision within their realm of freedom. The idea of automatically archiving valuable discussions is excellent, but it may be challenging to implement realistically, as it is unlikely to be widely embraced by many individuals. Meloncookie (talk) 07:50, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

My only comment is about obligations to check if an editor is CT aware and whether they have simple deleted a notice without otherwise acknowledging they are CT aware for a particular topic. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Cinderella157, there is an edit filter, 602, that can see if/when a user was given a DS/CT notification, so that makes it fairly simple to check even if the notification was not archived. Curbon7 (talk) 20:20, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope, if you need to link to a discussion for some sort of documentation somewhere else, use a diff or permalink. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:18, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

My problem is that s blanked talk page looks like a new user’s talk page which is confusing.Doug Weller talk 20:43, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

A blanked page has a page there. A new user has no page there and asks you if you want to create a page. Unless the user is forced to include an archive indexing on his talk page, an archived talk page would look like a blanked page as well. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:15, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I've certainly seen new accounts given several first-level warnings by vandal fighters who might have acted more strongly had they noticed that the editor had already removed previous warnings. Certes (talk) 21:27, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I always check the page history… just for that reason. Blueboar (talk) 21:46, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I think there's a decent point to be made that searching a complete archive is at least ten times easier than searching the history. I'm overwhelmingly sympathetic to the argument that the horse is already out of the barn so to speak, there is no way to retroactively standardize the thousands and thousands of unique ways in which people have handled their own talk pages. On my own talk page I've more or less tried to model what I think should be the best practices under current conditions but I want to stress that its just what I do and I don't think that we should be imposing any one standard on the community. I do wish there was a tool which would allow you to see a "master page" so to speak which could present everything which was ever present. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:46, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I recently encountered a user who used the (now out-of-style) approach of periodically moving their talk page to an archive page. At some later point, they blanked their archive pages. So to find a conversation, you have to search multiple talk page histories. isaacl (talk) 02:36, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Cunning, and you'd have to check the move logs in case the old version had gone somewhere less obvious than User:Vandal/Archive_1. Certes (talk) 08:36, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Very clever, a common one I've encountered is removing the text with the edit summary "Archived" (or similar) but never actually putting it in the archive or only putting some of it in the archive. I would note thats its been my experience that users with a more... lets say creative approach to their talk pages generally have more to hide. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Not to mention an account rename or two. RoySmith (talk) 17:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

If Twinkle offers to add a level 1 warning then I'll play along unless I suspect foul play, and a cunning blanker will give me no reason to be suspicious. Certes (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I have never written anything that interfaces with Wikipedia, but it seems to me that it should be relatively easy to write a tool that displays such a "master page" dependent on a page's history. Dealing with moved pages appears to be more of a challenge. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

In response to searching a complete archive is at least ten times easier than searching the history: for me it is ten times easier to scan a talk page's edit history than to search anything. All the anti-vandal tools I'm aware of leave a fact-filled edit summary that gives a concise history and helps you to decide if you need to dig deeper or not, and blanking doesn't impact that. And while it's true that there are baroque ways a LTV can get around all of this, those are edge cases and shouldn't impact something as fundamental as the right for a user to maintain some flexibility over their own talk page. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 19:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

A policy against talk page blanking would harm and confuse new users who don't know what archiving means, much less how to do it. For example, I previously would blank my talk page after I read the comment. Now I have a bot, but I'm not sure that it's working. If we want to prevent talk page blanking, it should be through having an archive bot on as a default, but changeable setting, instead of making it against the rules to blank your own talk page (especially when links to versions of a page exist). Chamaemelum (talk) 07:35, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I've been blanking my page for years, I only archive material that will be useful later, much of what is posted to talk pages is niff naff and trivia. Those of us who clean up vandalism or work in an area of some controversy inevitably attract abuse on their talk pages. I remove it on sight, as do my friendly talk page stalkers. Being forced to keep abuse would be the inevitable consequence of a policy change and that is plain wrong. As more than one poster has pointed out, the messages are still there in the history. WCM_email 08:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

I believe that the current COI rules are not advantageous to the so-called expert editors, especially to those associated with universities, cultural institutions, and other non-profit organizations, an association that is often inevitable for said experts.

The definition of COI relationship is the same for business people as it is for academics (Any external relationship—personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial (including holding a cryptocurrency)—can trigger a COI), despite a dramatically different potential for benefit and fundamental (in my view) differences in their respective motivations. Per WP:COI, SMEs are expected to make sure that their external roles and relationships in their field of expertise do not interfere with their primary role on Wikipedia., forcing SMEs to self-police to a point where it might significantly affect and limit their potential contributions. The verb "interfere" is particularly problematic to me, because it assumes ulterior motive. COI policy should recognize that any overlap due to one's deep familiarity with the field is not the same as interference. On the other hand, disclosing one's specific affiliations, the only proposed solution to any COI, can very easily lead to outing (basic cross-referencing and Google will do the trick), which discourages those editors who wish to remain anonymous and who are otherwise significantly likely to further the mission of the encyclopedia.

I am not saying that academics or "experts" can't have a conflict of interest (they obviously can), but they are, by and large, motivated by a passion for research and for sharing knowledge. I am saying, however, that the current rules are not encouraging for SMEs and can lead to such absurd (again, my view) COI noticeboard reports as this one. Someone tried to out me earlier this year and even though my conscience is clear (I have never had any personal benefit from my editing), it made me paranoid and resigned, thinking that if it ever happens again, my only "solution" is list every single organization I've been affiliated with, people I have met, etc. at which point I might as well post my full name. How that is fair is beyond me. We are all volunteers, which makes the lack of nuance in COI policy feel even more overwhelming and mind boggling. Ppt91^talk 21:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I've worked with a few experts, including at least one Pulitzer winner, and one particular archivist where I just adore their enthusiasm for obscure subjects.

The issue isn't whether you're paid. Presumably most of us are employed somehow. But I don't disclose my employer for obvious privacy issues, and my employer has never directed me to change content on WP. Anything I do related to the subject area is just because that's where I work, and so I'm interested in it, and have knowledge of it. But that can get murky sometimes with academics especially, where we've seen instances of people doing things like spamming their own papers and it gets hard to tell the difference between enthusiasm and something like SEO, which means they have basically a COI to themselves. I've written some things, but I've never cited myself on WP.

And...honestly...if you're an expert, I'd like to know, because in my experience you have to hold their hand a little bit. Even with the best of intentions, they're used to writing original thought and don't know the rules. They don't know that "Wikipedia's voice" is supposed to be kinda dry and boring and to-the-point. GMG^talk 11:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

the current rules are not encouraging for SMEs and can lead to such absurd (again, my view) COI noticeboard reports as this one: given that there's pretty much unanimous consensus in that discussion that there's no COI I don't see what the problem is here. No matter how carefully we frame our policy it's possible for people to bring spurious reports, and academics absolutely can have COIs – I've definitely seen accounts which are very keen to promote the views of particular academics way beyond the amount of acceptance their theories get in other scholarship, for instance. I'm also not exactly sure what your issue with the word "interfere" is: I don't see that it presumes anything about ulterior motives. What alternate wording would you suggest? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 13:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree strongly with Caeciliusinhorto. Subject-matter experts are valuable to the project but kind of "dangerous", in that they tend to treat their own voice as a reliable source, and we have rules to protect the project that have to apply to experts (sometimes especially to experts, in particular academics who have their own primary research to advance as if it were secondary source material).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Having a general and bright-line definition of COI is very difficult, especially since the appropriate degree of separation is informed by (not always universal) cultural/political assumptions. I suspect the COI notice Caeciliusinhorto cites was advanced on the assumption that the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases itself is a biased actor. That's not an assumption that many editors share, but distrust of the objectivity of Fauci/NAID is a common enough trope on the American political right that I think it's perfectly plausible that the report was made in good faith. Clear rules like requiring disclosure of paid editing are useful because they help avoid that kind of confusion. But I think it's important to remember that the main mechanism for COI enforcement is self-regulation, so the most important question is not how the rules will be interpreted by the average editor, but how the rules will be interpreted by the average person with a COI. 〈 Forbes₇₂ | Talk 〉 21:36, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

If I may I would like to comment on the area of COI as I have personal experience with running through this hoop. I am a professional taxonomist and paleontologist. I have named multiple species and genera, on many pages of interest to me from an editing perspective my own research work is cited. Not by me generally, it has to be as I am the original discoverer of these species. I think the COI policies are necessary but are poorly worded in places. I think the intent is right but the wording lacks clarity. For example I write or edit an article about a species I named, in the taxobox if no where else I must cite my work. The way I deal with these issues is I only use my own work if it has been published (ie past tense) in peer reviewed literature. I have reams of information I could use but I do not because I have never gotten around to publishing it. I also acknowledge my COI issues (and NPoV by the way) by often listing what I intend to do on a talk page prior to actually doing it. In other words because of my COI being Bold is not usually a good idea. I have to be a little more accepting that for a community project I should take it a little easier.

So what are the problems, well for one your policy spends a lot of time talking about what COI is and what not to do but does not offer genuine experts in their field any advice on how to best deal with the situation. If you want experts to contribute, and it would be foolish not to, they need to know how to do this without falling foul of COI and NPoV. It took me a long time to figure out the best way to handle this issue without rubbing people the wrong way.

This leads to the next issue. Most people who are experts in whatever their field is are proud of the effort and work they have done and do not like being dragged down by what is essentially a dose of wiki-lawering with policies that make it impossible for them. It is normal to be proud of your work particularly if you are good at it. I personally know the lead editor of one of the biggest animal checklists in the world who on wikipedia was told by a kid he knew nothing about the animals he had spent 50 years working on. It is of course impossible to realise you are talking to a university professor in an environment where everyone is entitled to use a pseudonym. (On that note its one of the reasons I do not use a pseudonym. Anyone working on turtles has read my work it has been easier for me here since I dropped Faendalimas and used my real name in my signature. Yes by the way I kind of had to do that. Why because people who misread my work were citing it to me to prove I was wrong.

The COI policy needs to acknowledge that genuine experts do exist, that they will if they write about these areas cite their own work, and explain how they should go about it the best way. Its a policy you need to get right because at present it does drive experts away. Experts have to spend a lot of time figuring out how to weave the editing nightmare particularly in hot topics. My suggested recommendations to experts are 1. dont just cite your own work, 2. only cite published work, 3. use the talk page to pre-empt issues, 4. if you can cope dont be anonymous. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 22:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

That's really good feedback, though I raising it in this general way may not produce any change. It would probably be more effective to draft some specific changes to the COI policy wording and propose them here or at its talk page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:49, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

RFC on non-free videos

The article for the killing of Nahel Merzouk features a non-free video of the incident as the lead media. The file has been nominated for deletion with users claiming that a video cannot meet the WP:NFCC#3 minimal usage requirements. This is despite the fact that WP:NFC permits the usage of non-free videos, so long as it's a minimal sample, akin to audio files.

I've noticed that there appears to be a lack of precedent and discussion regarding non-free videos, with even WP:NFC lacking a comprehensive, dedicated section to it, merely grouping it with other types of NF media (in contrast, for example, audio files have WP:SAMPLE). The argument used by those espousing for the file's deletion is that you can technically claim that 10 seconds is enough, then 9, then 8, and so on, so it inherently cannot meet minimum usage requirements; this is despite NF audio clips suffering from the same issue. There appears to be not standard in place for this and I think that we really ought to address this instead of leaving it in limbo to establish a set precedent.

The issue is that however you put it, the rationale of "a video cannot be NFC" is fundamentally at odds with WP:NFC, which again does permit the use of non-free videos, and again, we acknowledge that non-free audio excerpts can fall under fair use despite having the same issue of "what's minimal usage" (hell, you can even make the argument that NF images may suffer from this since their resolution can still be reduced without impeding on the reader's understanding)? So, with this, I ask,

A. Do non-free videos fall under fair use Do non-free files pass WP:NFCC#3?
. If not, then what makes it different to non-free images, audio, and other types of media?

- Knightoftheswords (Talk · Contribs) 19:44, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• In answer to question A, it is irrelevant whether or not videos are fair use, in the strict meaning of fair use, because that is not the standard that Wikipedia uses. In answer to question B, videos should be treated the same, for our purposes, as any other media in determining NFC inclusion or exclusion. Based on the description above of the dispute, the issue appears to be that some editors are arguing that no video can satisfy WP:NFCCP #3b. That argument is an incorrect understanding of the NFC policy. As stated in 3b, the amount of the video used here must satisfy: "An entire work is not used if a portion will suffice." So if, for example, a non-free video is 11 seconds long, one can use a portion of it that is 10 seconds or less (preferably at reduced resolution). Whether one uses 10, 9, or 8 seconds depends on what "will suffice" to provide the information that one wants to convey in the Wikipedia article. Generally, the less one uses, the safer one is with criterion 3b, so it comes down to a decision about balancing that against the desire to present enough useful information. But if one is using less than the "entire work", one has satisfied 3b. The argument that no video can satisfy 3b because it is impossible to define how much less than the entire work is still usable, if that argument is really being made, is incorrect. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:37, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think A is irrelevant. Wikipedia's criteria are stricter than fair use. Therefore falling under fair use is not sufficient, but it is necessary for use on Wikipedia. So if videos cannot fall under fair use we can't use them. But I am not nearly familiar enough with copyright law to have an opinion on the matter. PS: I posted a link to this discussion at WP:Media copyright questions to bring this to the attention of more people with copyright experience. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 22:16, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  You and I are actually saying the same thing in different ways. I'm just saying that passing fair use doesn't tell us one way or the other whether NFCC are passed. Of course it's also true that something that is not even fair use doesn't stand a chance of passing NFCC. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:34, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  OK. Then I misunderstood you. Sorry. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  No worries! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  I apologize for the confusion; I accidentally mixed up fair use and NFCC3 in the above text. I've corrected it. - Knightoftheswords (Talk · Contribs) 00:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• You got a better argument if the video itself is the subject of the article as a creative work. That...kindof...adds an element of irreplaceability. GMG^talk 23:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  If by "irreplaceable" you mean WP:NFCC #1 ("no free equivalent"), I think the video at hand qualifies: it is the only known footage of a high-media-profile incident. No equivalent footage can be created after the fact (even if you reenact the scene with actors, it will not be an authentic recording taken on the scene).

  If you mean WP:NFCC #3 ("contextual significance"), that’s of course a harder sell. I tend to agree with posters below that in theory a full video could qualify but in practice screenshots are often enough, but that applies to a creative work as well (if L'Arrivée d'un train en gare de La Ciotat was still copyrighted, I doubt the full video would pass NFCC#3). Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 09:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  I mean in the sense of #3, of trying to determine what is the minimum we can use and still provide encyclopedic coverage. That includes something like whether we can do as we did with Central Park birdwatching incident and simply provide an Archive.org link to the full video. That can actually provide a lot more value to the reader than us trying to arbitrarily chop it up to squeeze under NFCC. That get's a lot of mileage under #8 also, as to whether omission would be specifically "detrimental".

  I'm not saying that a video can never meet NFCC, but the bar is set extremely high. That's by design. It's less "this makes it better" and more "not having this would be ruinous." Having a subject connected to a viral video is a dime a dozen, and doesn't automatically meet that. In practice, most non-free content is used when the content itself is the subject of the article (er, or logos, but that's not relevant here), and not simply related to it. As in the case of Dennō Senshi Porygon below, I can't adequately describe this to you in prose, the media is the subject of the article, and we have a very specific rationale for why this portion is used. GMG^talk 11:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• The actual video aspect of the video, given that we can always use a single-frame screenshot, has to be what has been discussed in sources as essential to its understanding per NFCC#8. Most NFC video content fails this test. --Masem (t) 00:16, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• I think that for NFCC#3 the deciding factor is whether or not a screenshot (or may be two screenshots to show before and after) is sufficient. Is it necessary to see motion, is it necessary to have audio, is it necessary to see multiple things that are not shown at the same time and could not be shown by the use of a limited number of screenshots, etc? So in my opinion a video can meet NFCC#3, but only when screenshots are insufficient. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 00:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Dennō Senshi Porygon is one case where a non-free video, File:Seizure clip from Dennō Senshi Porygon.ogg, is used in the infobox. The article is about an episode of the Pokémon anime which is infamous for giving children seizures. Because it is a cartoon with rapidly-flashing lights, a video helps to illustrate how bad the flashing was. To be clear, this very file has been extensively discussed on that article's talk page and in WP:FFD, so this much has definitely been vetted by the community. As such, I think it's clear that videos are allowed under NFCC. 1937 Fox vault fire, a featured article, also contains a non-free video, with which the article passed its FA nomination, though the file's description discusses the possibility of {{PD-US-not-renewed}} applying. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 01:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Videos can meet the NFCC. This does not mean that a specific one does (or does not), but it is incorrect to claim that a video can never meet the criteria. What counts as minimal usage will obviously depend on the length of the video, what it is being used to illustrate, etc. In some cases 2-3 seconds may be enough, in others you might need 10 seconds or even more. That screenshots will suffice in some cases is completely irrelevant. Thryduulf (talk) 10:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• As per above. If someone is saying video content may never be used under NFCC, that is inaccurate. That said, usage of nonfree content is still expected to be as minimal as possible. If the use of a still frame or two would suffice, use of the video clip is more nonfree content than necessary and so fails #3a. But that won't always be the case. As always, whether the use of nonfree material is appropriate (outside some normally accepted areas; book/album covers in the article about the work, logos in the article about the organization they represent, etc.) is evaluated on a case by case basis. So, I would say we should generally be somewhat skeptical of the use of video material as NFC, but not categorically forbid it. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 18:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Per above, but NFCC video must be minimal usage (both in resolution (audio and video) and in duration relative to the original work). In the specific case presented, it could clearly be lower resolution, and the clip could be shortened to a couple of seconds prior to one second after the incident of note. I think it passes NFCC#8 as the context is the specific police claim that it was self defense and an officer was about to be run over (which our sources and this video refute). —Locke Cole • t • c 21:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• It's possible, though not likely, that a non-free video may meet the minimal usage criterion, but the threshold is high and is unlikely to be met. As others mention, in most cases a screenshot will suffice. Stifle (talk) 07:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Are there a way that people could see it through {{external video}} template? Because the original owner may post it elsewhere, using it as a source is possible. Just a random Wikipedian^(talk) 12:06, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• In order that a video can qualify under NFCC, it must not be replaceable by a reasonably small number of screenshots with a reasonable amount of explanatory text. Additionally, only other use the relevant time frame; low resolution; and no audio unless this it can be shown to be necessary. Animal lover |666| 08:51, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• This user supports the fair use of media to improve the encyclopedia.
  (In other words, yes, there are absolutely videos that qualify under NFCC. They're legally permissable and improve the encyclopedia, so we should use them in applicable situations.) {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:30, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  Remember that we do not work off the concept of fair use to determine what to include, but what non-free content allows (which will by default consider fair use, but more restrictive than that). Masem (t) 15:27, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

• I agree that non-free videos can meet Wikipedia's non-free content criteria. If a small amount of content, such as a few screenshots, can't sufficiently explain the material, a video would be good. But needing a video would be uncommon. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 15:21, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
• I saw that the two bigger problems about fair-use videos than what's currently being discussed here are "how long can a fair-use video be" and "how high can a fair-use video's resolution be". CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 17:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

  WP:NFCCP is significantly stricter than fair-use. So first we have to decide whether or not NFCCP allows us to use a fair-use video at all. Then the next step is to determine criteria for fair-use. You already mentioned length and resolution, another question is whether or not to include sound. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

  The answers are "no longer than needed to illustrate what it is illustrating" and "no higher resolution than is necessary to illustrate what it is illustrating", the specific values are inherently dependent on the individual video and the reason it is being used. For example if a video is of a police officer hitting someone with their baton six times when the officer claims they only hit them once then it will be necessary for the video to play long enough to show all six strikes (assuming screenshots are not sufficient). If the officer's claim is that they didn't hit them at all then a portion of the video showing a single strike may be sufficient. If the police officer fills the entire frame then it is very likely a lower resolution will be sufficient than if they fill only a small portion of it. Thryduulf (talk) 08:16, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

• I would argue there is precedent for non-free video files being permitted under WP:NFCC#3. See — 121 non-free video samples. I agree with Thryduulf, it just boils down to "no longer than needed to illustrate what it is illustrating" and "no higher resolution than is necessary to illustrate what it is illustrating" Stick to that rule of thumb and WP:NFCC#3 will be satisfied. You're not proposing any specific changes in the language related to WP:NFCC, so I'd say it's just fine. It's unfortunate that the file you are referencing about Nahel Merzouk got deleted. I'm not familiar with how long it was, or how long the original video was, but if it was fairly short, it should have met the standard of WP:NFCC#3.— Isaidnoway (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, non-free videos can meet all NFCCP requirements so long as the entire video (rather than a still image or audio fragment) is widely discussed in reliable sources. "Minimal use" requires that the clip could not be made shorter without losing information or context that the reader needs. A video that sparks countrywide protests could certainly meet NFCCP, though I've not seen this specific video or read the sourcing. — Bilorv (talk) 09:16, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
• It’s extremely rare that we need unfree videos, but there’s no reason we can’t use them i.e. in the infamous Pokémon example, where an image literally could not convey the same information. Dronebogus (talk) 12:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• I would say yes. As stated by Dronebogus above, there are sometimes no free alternatives and we do have to rely on the NFCC, though if possible, I would suggest that we use external media templates before going ahead. The article on the murder of George Floyd is a good example, though I do believe if the original link does get taken down for some reason, editors should reach out to the content owners and attempt to convince them to release such content to us under a CC license (or release it into the public domain) before relying on the NFCC. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Notable covers are eligible for standalone articles, provided that the article on the cover can be reasonably-detailed based on facts independent of the original.

WP:NSONG Anyone else think this should be changed to WP:NCOVER, which states "When a song has been recorded or performed by more than one artist, a particular artist's rendition should be included in the song's article (never in a separate article)"? I'm looking to change the guidelines. We shouldn't be clogging up our encyclopedia with worthless cover versions, this also creates confusion for the reader, etc... the gradual change of Wikipedia into Wikia... Therapyisgood (talk) 02:13, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• I definitely get where you're coming from, but I think that notable cover versions do more clogging inside other articles than they do standalone. For starters, the original isn't always the most notable: take "Barbara Ann", for example. The Beach Boys cover dwarfs the original so much that the Regents' original gets barely more than a lead mention. As Levivich notes in his close of the RfC, that leads to the Regents getting an article for a non-notable song they write because of the inherited notability that comes with the Beach Boys cover, and is also a cluttery, unexpected, and undue way to write an article. There's no reason to be that strict: plenty of derivative movies and books have articles of their own, as do plenty of tribute bands. Truly notable song covers can have one or more of distinct lyrics, distinct music (which can be covered in-depth by music theorists), distinct composition, distinct production, and distinct critical review in the press. It'd be like merging Macbeth (1971 film) back to Macbeth.
  In any case, part of WP:NSONG is set by RfC. If you'd like to overturn it, I think we should have another RfC to let the community weigh in again. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 02:24, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Most cover versions by notable bands are just that and should definitely be within the article on the original song. Others, on the other hand, get their own spat of notability ("Africa" by Weezer is one) and can be separate. But this should be seen as the exception, not the rule. Unless there's good reason for a separate article on the cover, the original song article is suitable. Masem (t) 03:05, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• This is an attempt to reverse the outcome of an RfC from just over a year ago. Either evidence should be provided of why that recent consensus a) was procedurally invalid or b) has led to negative effects, or this should be speedily closed. -- 'zin^{[is short for Tamzin]} (she|they|xe) 04:03, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
  • @Tamzin: Did you even read my nom? "clogging up our encyclopedia with worthless cover versions, this also creates confusion for the reader, etc... the gradual change of Wikipedia into Wikia", all of which are negative effects. Therapyisgood (talk) 04:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
    • Additionally the close was by a non-admin, before I take this to AN for a close review is there a specific time limit on a close review? It appeared to be a no consensus to me, judging based on the rough count. Therapyisgood (talk) 04:32, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
      • Those are asserted negative effects. You have provided no evidence. Are there cases of unsuitable articles being kept at AfD under this rule change? Currently your objection seems to be, simply, that you don't like what the consensus was, which is not on its own a basis for a new RfC. As to challenging at AN, I would say that once a reasonable window passes without an RfC's outcome being challenged, the lack of challenge in itself contributes to the close's validity, making it black-letter law; but if you want to try a challenge, I mean, I can't stop you. Although I'm not sure why it matters whether the closer was an admin. -- 'zin^{[is short for Tamzin]} (she|they|xe) 04:53, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
      • Therapyisgood, I think you're missing the point in multiple regards: theleekycauldron has already explained why a general prohibition on cover song articles is not a good idea, and the closure appears to be fine. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 04:55, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
        • @Tamzin: I think we are already seeing the negative affects of this. Just today I had to start a merge proposal on We Didn't Start the Fire (Fall Out Boy song), which was a great waste of time. That kind of proves my point. The well-respected wiki mod @Amakuru: has said this shouldn't have been its own article, even under the new rules. See here for proof. Therapyisgood (talk) 00:30, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
          • If that page fails the current version of the guideline, how is that evidence of a fault with the guideline? And you've started this RfC without waiting to see if others agree with your merge proposal. This whole thing, Therapyisgood, seems very hasty and ill-thought-through. -- 'zin^{[is short for Tamzin]} (she|they|xe) 02:02, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
• I think the discussion here is missing the core question: what do we mean by a "song"? Are we talking about a composition, or are we talking about a recording? It seems to me that in many cases we really are talking about a composition. We cover musical compositions that predate recordings, whether Piano Concerto No. 5 (Beethoven) or "The House of the Rising Sun", which seems quite reasonable to me. Once a composition has become notable (and it will generally do that through recorded forms), it seems that it is most informative to keep versions in a single article with only severe exceptions (such as the article growing too large that it needs to be split), as those various recordings and how they relate to one another are key to the history of the song. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 05:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  I generally agree with this, though Theleekycauldron is correct in pointing out exceptional cases like "Barbara Ann" where a particular recording dwarfs all others and the composition itself; there's no question that a few covers merit independent articles. But something like the "Blue Monday" cover by Orgy does not, and should just be covered in WP:DUE amount at the article on the New Order composition and recordings (they made more than one of it).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:34, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose making a hard rule against this. Individual recordings can be notable, and sometimes it is better to present them in an article about the original work, sometimes it is not. This is true for modern music as it is for classical. For example, we have Bach: The Goldberg Variations (Glenn Gould album). Often, as leeky observes correctly, putting cover versions into the original song articles clutters those up; we should not make a rule enforcing that. I'd rather have a separate article on UB40's Can't Help Falling in Love than having to scroll past all of its chart placements while looking at the article about the Presley song. —Kusma (talk) 20:38, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose establishing a hard-and-fast rule, per the above comment. This is one of those areas where article organization has too many complexities and caveats to be amenable to simple bullet points. XOR'easter (talk) 00:08, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per others here; this is trying to solve a non-existent problem. Covers don't usually get enough significant coverage to have their own page, but when they do, they should have one! WP:NCOVER should instead be updated. I'd add something along the lines of Depending on how much reliable sourcing exists for a cover, a separate article can on occasion be warranted. and removing the (never in a separate article) parenthetical. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:22, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Agree with removing the parenthetical, and I think that many of the comments here support that as well. I'll start a subsection to focus on that in case this goes unnoticed. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 03:33, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - the previous RFC overturned years of practice in making it default for covers to have their own articles. That is wrong. There will be occasional cases that are so significant that one is merited, but those are the exception, and we need to close this before the floodgates open.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:13, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, a song doesn't even need to meet NSONG if it meets GNG (and never did, the latest RfC didn't change how notability works on wikipedia) so this just seems pointless. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:27, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose based almost exclusively on the use of "never" in the proposal. Never is an absolute, suggesting that in all cases the statement is true; suggesting that anyone can account for all instances of anything – let alone covers of songs – is hubristic and fails to account for the numerous instances where this simply isn't the case. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 14:27, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I strongly disagree with the idea that simply because notable covers can or are eligible for a standalone article that they should have one. Last December, theleekycauldron promoted the idea at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs/Archive 26#Cover songs that should be split: "Now that WP:NSONG has been changed to allow covers, we should start making a list of songs that should be split out. Off the top of my head: [list of 13 songs]". The discussion that followed showed opposition to the idea and questioned whether the change to NSONGS was undertaken properly. The decision on whether a cover should be split off into a separate article should be undertaken only in response to a real need to do so, as determined by a discussion on the song's talk page. Otherwise, it seems like "here's the solution, let's find the problem". —Ojorojo (talk) 17:35, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
  • That is an excellent point, thank you for bringing this up. Therapyisgood (talk) 19:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposal violates the spirit of the 5 pillars, most importantly 5P5, but also 5P2. We shouldn't have guidelines that sound unbreakable per the spirit of pillar 5. Also we shouldn't have guidelines that directly restrict the ability of editors to make decisions that are best for NPOV (pillar 2). Beyond the proposed wording, I also do not agree with the expository language in the proposal "worthless cover versions". Wikipedia is built on notability and verifiability, not "worth". And if it gives any solace, as an editor who has taken some long breaks over the past 2 decades, Wikipedia is less like Wikia than it has ever been. —siroχo 01:26, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: Before any action is taken, I should let everyone know that WikiProject Songs, a project that should definitely have a say in this RfC, was completely left in the dark about a previously similar discussion, which I think was pretty rude. I've notified them this time and hope some members will comment. As for how I feel about creating articles for cover songs, I've made my stance clear on the previously linked discussion and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs/Archive 26#Cover songs that should be split. ResPM (T🔈🎵C) 11:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
• Comment The fact the WikiProject wasn't even notified of this should be enough to just overturn that original RfC. I'm pretty active in the songs space and had no clue this change had happened. Toa Nidhiki05 17:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Handling exceptional cases

Elli has pointed out that the current guideline explicitly forbids separate articles, yet I see a lot of comments here supporting the idea that sometimes covers are independently notable and deserve an article. I feel like more attention on that may help to resolve this. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 03:39, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Orange Suede Sofa and Elli: that's wikiproject guidance, not actual guideline – it was just never updated with the RfC a few months ago, but it is superseded by it. It should probably just be updated to match NSONGS (either before this RfC ends or after, if we don't want to do it twice). theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 03:55, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes. We do not even want the appearance of a WP:POLICYFORK.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

RfC on requiring non-plot coverage to demonstrate book notability

Should the following be added to Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Other considerations, below Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Articles that are plot summaries?

Sources that are plot summaries

When assessing whether a book is notable the content of the source must be considered. Plot descriptions and quotes from the book should be omitted when determining whether a source contains significant coverage.

02:18, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Survey (book notability)

• Support. First, to comply with WP:NOTPLOT we need to be able to write an article that is more than just 90% plot description; unless there is significant coverage of the work beyond plot description this is not possible. Second, this will address the issue of indiscriminate coverage of books published by major publishers, as part of the publishers marketing strategy, by organizations like Publishers Weekly. Most of these reviews are churned out for said strategy and contain little beyond a plot summary; such routine coverage is not an indicator of notability and would be excluded by this proposal.

To date, these low standards haven't been a problem; there have been practical barriers to the mass creation of book stubs. However, with the advent of large language models these limitations are removed; we need to act now to close the barn door before the horse escapes. BilledMammal (talk) 02:18, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - independently published books with multiple reviews are of inherent encyclopaedic interest and Notability; the idea that books have to be shown by special, "non-routine" reviews to be "more worthy" than other books seems to presuppose an unduly diminished view of the potential for an online encyclopaedia, and also runs counter to the development of enwiki to date.
  There may well be problems arising for Wikipedia from the development of large language models and neural networks, but adding readily gamed restrictions on required content in a book review is not a response that would help with any of Wikipedia 's current and upcoming challenges. Newimpartial (talk) 02:25, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• I would want to support narrower language: something like Reviews that consist mostly of plot summary and quotation are not considered significant coverage. I think the proposed langauge implies that there is a hard amount of text required for SIGCOV that doesn't really exist. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 02:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not seeing that implication; my intention was to just apply our normal standards of assessing WP:SIGCOV after we have excluded plot descriptions and quotes. For your alternative I think it is actually stricter language; it would exclude reviews that are 70% plot review even if the 30% amounts to WP:SIGCOV. BilledMammal (talk) 02:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  "Reviews" that are only plot summaries and quotes are not reviews, those are recaps or summaries, and those are primary sources, which are automatically excluded from GNG notability.

  That said, a review that actually is more than just plot summaries, and uses the plot summary or quotes to describe themes or other aspects of reception that are evaluations or criticisms that fall within "transformative nature" of secondary sources are fine. Thus, you can't just simply discount or ignore the plot/quotes from a review article to access its appropriateness for notability. Masem (t) 03:02, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  A recap is a source that talks about the primary source, making it secondary by definition. Maybe it's a mediocre kind of secondary source, but that's a separate question. XOR'easter (talk) 21:35, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  No, secondary sources require transformation of thought, something that we can't do via WP:NOR. Something that just summarizes a primary work is primary itself. This is why news reports of an events are primary, since they are summarizing the events without additional transformation. Masem (t) 15:41, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  News reports of an event are primary because we have no access to the event that is more direct. An event is an event, not a primary source about itself. XOR'easter (talk) 15:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  If the reporter wasn't present at the event but collected information from eyewitnesses, authorities, etc. that were there, that would still be a primary source using other primary sources of information, because they are not using any type of critical thought to transform the information into something new, all per WP:PRIMARYNEWS. The same applies to simple rote recaps, compared to reviews that provide critical thought. Masem (t) 12:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, mostly per WP:CREEP. This is a proposal steamrollered through by BilledMammal without listening to any of the negative feedback in its discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (books). It is focused only on a subset of the books (the ones that have plots to summarize). It fails to recognize that a description of the plot of a book can actually be transformative content about the book, artificially describing it as not significant not because it is actually not significant (if it were, we wouldn't need an extra rule to say that it is) but because the nominator wants to have more ammunition to delete articles. It solves a non-problem. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:53, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  Not all plot summaries are transformative and thus not necessarily secondary. In fact, the way that we are supposed to summarize plots is to a level of non-interpretative, sterilized rote repetition that our plot summaries would be considered primary works, as there should be no significant transformation (original research or thought) involved. And there are other works out there that create plot summaries in this same manner. (This is comparable to news reports - those just describing events without larger analysis are primary sources to the event.

  But that's not to say plot summaries from all works are primary. Secondary ones that present the necessary transformation and OR that we can't do on Wikipedia, exist. I am sure there are examples of analysis of Shakespeare plays that have the combination of plot summaries along with this type of analysis. Or the old sarcastic summaries that existed at Television Without Pity for various TV episodes would definitely qualify as secondary. Masem (t) 12:35, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  Re "not all plot summaries are transformative": this is precisely why I chose the verb "can" rather than "is" in writing "a description of the plot of a book can actually be transformative content". It was a deliberate choice. But this proposal would eliminate that distinction and pre-emptively declare that all plot summaries are non-transformative. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Please demonstrate one single example (more are fine, but since I'm asserting no such thing exists, a single source will prove me wrong) of a non-transformative plot summary. Masem, David Eppstein or anyone are welcome to respond. Jclemens (talk) 03:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Published books covering TV series that typically include a summary of each episode (for example, this book at Amazon, or from this book from which this is a preview page. Simple rote iteration of what's going on with the episode in terms of summary. Now yes, these books add additional details and may be appropriate to expand on production details, but those plots are very basic and definitely not transformative. Masem (t) 04:10, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Turning a video into text is necessarily transformative. For example, someone had to watch that episode of The Simpsons and decide that Lisa was not just calm, but "eerily" calm. They bother to mention the name of Homer's business; they write that Lisa declares she is changing her name to Lisa Bouvier without specifying, as another might, that Bouvier is Marge's maiden name. XOR'easter (talk) 15:42, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Then that would mean all of our plot summaries are transformative and violate WP:NOR. These summaries still are primary recaps. Details like where Homer works or what Marge's maiden name are well visible details of the show as a whole so that's not transformative (eg our equivalent of allowable SYNTH). Compare to the examples that BilledMammal gives below to reviews from AV Club or IGN which insert commentary and reviews in the recap. Masem (t) 15:52, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Not to the extent they reflect RS'ed plot summaries in line with NPOV. I mean, that's not even a remotely hard problem to solve withing longstanding policies. Jclemens (talk) 05:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  lol 87.115.35.12 (talk) 19:56, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose WP:NOTPLOT is about how we write about books, not about what sorts of independent reliable sources we can use to do so, a point the RFC initiator has been told before. A plot summary is transformative, hence a secondary source, because the summarizer must decide what is important and what can be left out. RfC initiator has failed to incorporate this feedback, and has put forth a proposal that is incompatible with NPOV: that policy requires our work to be representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. This would impermissibly exclude some RS'es, hence being dead on arrival as a guideline contradicting a policy. Jclemens (talk) 05:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  This would impermissibly exclude some RS'es I believe you have misunderstood the proposal; this would have no bearing on what sources we could use in the article, once we have decided we can have an article. BilledMammal (talk) 05:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  Please explain how removing some secondary sources from only book notability consideration would not be an NPOV violation. Jclemens (talk) 03:38, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Because asking whether an article that doesn't exist is neutral is a nonsensical question? To be honest, I don't even understand why you think it would be an NPOV violation; I note that other SNG's where we place restrictions on the use of sources that don't apply elsewhere, such as at WP:NCORP, aren't considered NPOV violations; I don't see any reason why this would be different? BilledMammal (talk) 16:03, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  NCORP is an SNG. Any corporation that fails NCORP can still meet N by meeting the GNG. So, you may have a point there... unless anyone disagrees that SNGs are positive only and can't exclude anything meeting the GNG. Jclemens (talk) 05:49, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support Straightforward application of established policy. If a source merely summarizes the book and does not elaborate on why it is important or meaningful, it cannot be used to establish notability. Avilich (talk) 13:34, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Masem, Newimpartial and David Eppstein. This is a "solution" that would not solve any problems that currently exist, nor would it solve the non-problem it claims to if that were actually a problem. Thryduulf (talk) 14:05, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Weak oppose There's a good concept in there of acknowledging that plot summaries on average are less indicative of notability, some severely so. But the wording, amplified by it's categorical form really is wp: creep, with likely unintended consequences. And does not acknowledge the variations described by Masem. And the bar for wording needs to be set higher because this is basically a calibration ( = modification) of GNG rather than being standard SNG fare. North8000 (talk) 14:33, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose plot summaries are secondary coverage. This is the same kind of bad source limitation creep that is seriously hampering our coverage of other topics. Jahaza (talk) 15:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - per WP:CREEP and fundamentally, after reading the discussion leading to the RFC, I do not see a problem that needs to be fixed. --Enos733 (talk) 16:33, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, policy creep, doesn't seem to address a problem that needs fixing. —Kusma (talk) 20:40, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Absolutely support. Our book notability guideline is grossly flawed in treating all "reviews" as equal. One that just regurgitates the plot with little in the way of critical thinking should not count toward notability, as it lacks depth of coverage. This has been a problem for a very long time, and we have a whole lot of stupid, spammy articles on garbage books as a result. Even my efforts to merge some of them back into author articles have met with revert-warring to retain miserable perma-stubs on the books as stand-alone articles, even though they are not of genuine excyclopedic merit except as bibliography section entries or maybe author article subsections at most. It's all because of the overbroad way we treat "reviews". There are entire publications that do nothing but rote book reviews, and any book that is not self-published is apt to be covered in more than one of them, which means any non-self-published book is apt to be falsely taken as "notable" enough for WP. It is not working. Just read the actual wording at WP:NBOOK: "The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This can include published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book." Not a single mention of depth or what kind of depth. Even the five footnotes do not help, as they address pretty much every term and concern other than "reviews". What we need here is a new footnote that qualifies that term, as only including analytical reviews not plot-summarizing/abstracting reviews.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's not for use to insert our value judgments about what reviewers (or RS generally) choose to focus on when discussing a narrative work. The purpose of GNG is to determine how much coverage a given subject has received from RS, as a measure of whether a statistically significant number of readers would benefit from the utility of an independent article on the subject. With respect, I strongly disagree with SMcCandlish's view that a detailed description of the plot of a novel does not constitute "in-depth" coverage, even if it includes a large volume of discussion of the contents of the book; I know of no policy or piece of community consensus connected to notability or weight which suggests we should be utilizing our own idiosyncratic impressions about how critically-oriented a source is (i.e. how much it involves subjective analysis of a subject) before it can count for the purposes to which we apply RS. Indeed, such a standard would be clearly rejected if proposed for any number of other subject types: we wouldn't exclude an article on a natural phenomena or historical event or an individual because all of the sources we presently had access to described these topics in purely descriptive terms, absent subjective analysis. Nor would we do so for any other variety of subject I can think of. Of course it's often of more value to our reader when we have sourcing of both the descriptive and analytical variety, but just so long as we can establish that a significant number of readers would get encyclopedic value out the coverage of a topic (and that the discussion of that topic is best effected through a separate article) we should have that article, even if what we are able to say about it (in terms of sourceable statements) is fairly straight forward and superficially descriptive. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for three reasons. First, because the only valid question in evaluating source-based notability is "are there enough adequate sources to support an adequate article". Anything more than that is simply exclusion for exclusion's sake and has no place in a project such as ours. A plot summary from a reliable source provides substantial article-building material. A valid point was raised above, that a plot summary alone cannot support an entire article. But it would be an exceptionally rare situation in which there were no sources at all beyond plot summaries. Second, because a couple decades of engaging with AFD wikilawyers tells me that this would immediately be weaponized to exclude any source that even contains a plot summary. The amount of harm that AFD has done to the project is immeasurable at this point, but the last thing we should do is add to it. Third, on general WP:CREEP and no-problem-requiring-a-solution grounds. -- Visviva (talk) 00:24, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  I don't have anywhere near as overwhelmingly negative an impression of AfD as you do, but for a certainty, one of the main practical concerns I have with this proposal is the absolutely certain (and probably quit marked) increase in edit disputes that it will lead to as editors begin to argue subjective standards for where the line between plot summary and a plot analysis lays in individual cases. All for the sake of addressing a supposed problem, the extent of which has not really been established here. As to the valid point regarding WP:NOTPLOT: well that's precisely where WP:PAGEDECIDE comes in. If the subject does have substantial sourcing, but that corpus of sourcing has blindspots that make construction of an independent article difficult or impractical, an argument can always be made on precisely the basis of the policy/carveout that already exists for that and similar pragmatic situations where notability exists but a standalone article is inadvisable.

  Now, don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that there are many occasions where such a NOPAGE approach can be (and are) stonewalled in favour of keeping a separate article, simply because that is much closer to the default presumption, once notability guidelines have been satisfied, and this really lets WP:ILIKEIT !voters to dig in. But that's an argument for reforming, clarifying, or just strengthening community consensus on the existing PAGEDECIDE standard. By comparison, the proposal here feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, by creating a new rule (that does not comport with our usual approach to sourcing and notability) that will undoubtedly lead to the removal of (or at least edit warring/content disputes centered around) many articles that have a perfectly valid encyclopedic purpose. Just for the sake of making it easier to excise a relatively small handful of articles that might be superfluous (without first even having a good showing that such supposedly problematic articles even exist in significant numbers), even though we already have tools for addressing those theoretical problem articles. To me, the likely cost-benefit analysis of the proposed approach just does not feel like it is flowing in the right direction. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 00:59, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I see this as akin to assessing whether a particular RS interview can contribute to notability: if it contains significant independent secondary analysis/commentary--that is, material that is not quotes from the interviewee or the interviewer restating/paraphrasing what the interviewee said/felt, it may count. Editors find this easy enough to understand at AfD, even for pieces that have quotes/paraphrasing interwoven with commentary; I don't think the comparable nuance of plot summary (primary with regards to notability) versus analysis would pose a problem. JoelleJay (talk) 02:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  This is akin to declaring, in GNG, that all interviews are non-independent, preventing participants from making the kind of assessment you describe. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:45, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  Many AFD !voters are in fact already taking the position that all interviews are non-independent. I think this is incredibly wrongheaded, but that's where we're at. Jahaza (talk) 19:01, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  Uh, no, absolutely not; the proposal just states that the plot summary content within a source should not be regarded when assessing the amount of SIGCOV the source provides. That does not prohibit all sources that contain plot summaries--or that even those that are mostly comprised of plot summaries--from counting toward notability. JoelleJay (talk) 02:33, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose A bad attempt to fix a non-problem. A review that spends time doing plot summary is still attention paid to the book. XOR'easter (talk) 21:35, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  And just because we can't or shouldn't write an article that is all plot summary, that doesn't make reviews which focus on plot summary useless. A "Reception" section could say, for example, "Reviewers praised the intricacies of the plot while noting that the characters generally fell into broad archetypes..." XOR'easter (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  Competently summarizing a plot is work. It requires making creative decisions: how much detail do you include? Do you describe flashbacks in chronological order of events or where they fall in the narrative? Do you describe what the detective notices when they notice it, or when they reveal it? How much can you leave out as understood due to genre conventions? I'm sorry, but this proposal amounts to insulting an entire category of secondary sources for no good reason. XOR'easter (talk) 22:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  If the only sources that provide SIGCOV of a book are plot summaries, how can we write an article that does not fail NOTPLOT? JoelleJay (talk) 02:37, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I'd like to offer an eloquent explanation for my view, but I really can't improve on the arguments offered by Snow Rise and Visviva, and I agree with what they've said. Although WP:NBOOK isn't a very high bar, there have been a number of books that I've read that I was unable to create an article about because there simply wasn't the non-trivial coverage necessary, so I know that not every non-self-published book qualifies under the SNG, even without the proposed change. Schazjmd (talk) 21:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose – There is no reason significant coverage should have to be a specific type of coverage beyond covering the subject in detail. Even if a book only receives significant coverage focusing on its plot, that is much more coverage than the vast majority of books, which won't receive any kind of coverage outside of self-published sources or catalog/shop entries. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Visviva, SnowRise, and the example given of a 'problematic' review that David Eppstein and Jclemens said more than enough about. I note that books (especially nonfiction and non-Anglophone fiction) are an area where Wikipedia has disastrous coverage, and the idea we need to discourage article creation for them feels rather like the idea we need to do so for any of our other underrepresented areas. I'm working towards a challenge to write articles on books in every hundreds-category of the Dewey Decimal system; it's incredible both how many books we're missing, including very recent and popular ones with substantial mainstream coverage, and how easy it is to write high-quality articles on virtually all these books (the four I've written towards it so far include one GA, one GAN intended to become an FA, and one FAC). Mass book stub creation through LLMs also doesn't really seem representative of the issues with LLMs for Wikipedia -- 'mass stub creation on subjects where it's easy to demonstrate notability' is a problem that doesn't require putting LLMs in the loop (as we know fairly well by now), and the practical/actionable issues (rather than the philosophical ones) with LLM content are mostly about issues orthogonal to the quality of existing sources, like the falsification of plausible-looking sources that don't exist. Vaticidalprophet 00:45, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support: routine plot coverage should not be enough to indicate notability. Also per @BilledMammal:. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 17:15, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. While this proposal seemed superficially appealing, I am persuaded by the "oppose" comments (especially the concrns raised by David Eppstein) and believe this would become a tool for abuse. Cbl62 (talk) 17:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose on account that the nominator doesn't contribute positively to the encyclopedia. It's easy to pontificate and tell others how you think they should edit and what approved sources they can use when you yourself do not create content for the encyclopedia. Honestly, BilledMammal, I would unsubscribe from the RfC notice list that spams your talk page and really ask yourself why you're here, because it's not to build an encyclopedia. You are actively driving contributors away whether you know it/care or not. –Fredddie™ 18:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  This is not a forum for discussing editorial conduct, let alone your general impression of another community member. Nor is "I generally don't have a high impression of the OP" a valid reason for opposing the specific proposal here, such that the closer can give it any weight for forming consensus. If you feel the editor has clearly violated any policies, content or behavioural, such that th on another user to yourself. Regardless the observations in this case, as presented in your "!vote" above, definitely don't belong here, and are in fact violations of WP:ASPERSION, and borderline WP:PA/WP:DISRUPT themselves. I'd consider striking or removing them entirely. And note that I say all of this as someone opposed to the proposal who does not think it is particularly well considered. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:37, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  I will not. Spades should be called spades at every opportunity lest they continue their spadely ways. –Fredddie™ 22:48, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  Suit yourself, but I'd recommend reviewing WP:POINT; regardless of whether or not you think you are doing the principled thing by noting your low impression of another editor here, this project has clear rules about when, where, how, and under what circumstances to "call your spades", and I'm telling you as a random community member with no previous experience of either of you or any underlying disputes that you are not comporting with those rules with the comments above. Please bear in mind that there is more than one kind of spade in the deck when it comes to behaviours this community considers disruptive, and coming to a content/policy discussion to expressly air your grievances against another editor rather than discussing the merits of the issue being considered could easily result in you getting called for a spade yourself. That said, this is the extent of the advice I am willing to provide, precisely because this is not the space for behavioural discussions. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:48, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  I don't disagree with anything you're saying about me; you could rightfully call me an asshole and you would most likely be correct. But you see, the nominator has a pattern of butting into topics that simply don't affect him because he doesn't contribute content to the encyclopedia. It's akin to someone who has never ridden in a car much less learned to drive one openly advocating for stiffer penalties for speeding, not using your turn signal, and putting the registration sticker in the wrong corner of your license plate. I think it's absolutely relevant to this discussion to point out this behavior. To that end, I think all of our notability guidelines need to be loosened, not tightened. –Fredddie™ 03:27, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  I was going to leave this with the note I left on your talk page, but since you removed that and insist on repeating the personal attacks I will ask here: Please strike the above, and if you have a problem with me bring it to my talk page or to ANI. Discussing it elsewhere is uncivil and a violation of policy, and given that I don't want to derail an unrelated discussion unfairly denies me the opportunity to respond. BilledMammal (talk) 03:57, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  I will not. Your character is relevant to this discussion right now. I'll also note that I have mentioned displeasure with your lack of content creation on your talk page. You ignored it. –Fredddie™ 04:10, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  If you feel that not meeting your expectations about the level of content creation is a reason for sanction and that I haven't suitably addressed your concerns, then take it to ANI. Your personal opinion of me is irrelevant to this proposal.

  I'm not going to take this further, but if you make such personal attacks in the future I will take you to ANI myself. BilledMammal (talk) 04:23, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  Fredddie, nobody can make you strike the comment, but at a minimum this line of discussion needs to stop immediately or I can tell you with confidence that BilledMammal will not need to take you to ANI--one of the rest of us will do it for him. As has been said here, if you have concerns about his conduct, there are forums reserved specifically for that. Take it there: it doesn't belong in this discussion about a policy proposal, even if you see a link between the proposal and what you do not like in his approach; even in that instance, the proper place to raise the topic of his behaviour is ANI, on a user talk, or an admin channel, depending on the nature of the supposed violation.

  All of that said, if you do take this to ANI, I would advise you not to lead with the "you don't edit articles, therefore you have less of a say" shtick: the community has, for a long while now, considered that a low quality and problematic argument, and many editors in good standing with the community have lower than normal mainspace editing ratios. Making a point of saying that you have gone out of your way to complain to BilledMammal about this is actually not a good look. I'm starting to feel you might be the ace of spades in this personal dispute. I'd really let this one go. But even if you can't, you've been told where to take such behavioural matters, about four times more than should be necessary; if you can't find the way, we can ask an admin to guide you there. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 08:20, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  I was intending to oppose this proposal, but I've been trying to ween myself off of policy discussions for awhile now. However, I just had to jump in here and say that you should really take the advice being offered by Snow here @Fredddie. This is not the way to handle confrontation in a collaborative manner. I want you to know that I have had my own unpleasant experience with the way BilledMammal has conducted business in the past so I'm not "taking sides" here, but I think you should strike the comment as BilledMammal has asked, and rethink about how you approach problems in a more productive way that doesn't involve slinging poop like a mad monkey. Lol. Huggums537 (talk) 11:47, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• I support making notability more restrictive, but oppose this particular solution, mainly because it can probably be handled with existing guidelines. If sources are not much more than a plot summary, then the consideration Articles that are plot summaries would probably justify deleting it. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  This is about sources as plot summaries, not articles as plot summaries. It's an important distinction. Jclemens (talk) 23:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose This proposal is not compatible with GNG. This proposal would render non-notable some books that satisfy GNG. There is no reason why books should be subjected to a higher threshold of notability than other topics that only have to satisfy GNG. James500 (talk) 20:49, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:CREEP. We already have guidelines about what articles should be (eg WP:NOTPLOT). And within the notability guidelines we have the language "presumed notable" (with explanation). There's no need, in this case, to limit which independent, reliable, secondary sources can be used to establish notability to write what would otherwise be an acceptable article. If such a case were to truly threaten pillar 1 or 2, other policies and guidelines would cover it adequately, including the existing notability guidelines. —siroχo 22:12, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as unworkable and undesirable. It's common for high-quality reviews to inextricably mix plot summary and commentary. The selection of aspects of the plot that the reviewer chooses to focus on, and their manner of presentation, can be of crucial importance: they can't simply be excised and ignored. MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:03, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as a solution without a problem. Unless someone can demonstrate why this change is needed this discussion is a non-starter, we don't just add bits and pieces to policy/guideline without having an actual problem that needs to be addressed... Thats actually a really good way to create problems where none existed before. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose The depth of a review can be evaluated separately from its coverage of a book's plot. For example, this review of a book I've written about recently, describes the book's plot without being "simple regurgitation" as other editors have described. :3 F4U (they/it) 03:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
• Meh Virtually all summaries in good critique exist solely in service of the critique, that is the critic chooses how to summarize based on what they really want to say about the author's work. It might be nice to have a premise that poorly written and constructed critique does not count, but that is unlikely to work in practice (perhaps work on guidelines concerning where the critic needs to be published in various genres). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:31, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
• Opppose. The whole basis of new criticism (particularly as applied to books) focuses extraordinarily on close readings of the text of the book itself—including plot description and analysis of direct quotations. This guidance would have the effect of excluding many works in the academic field of new criticism (and other related formalist schools) from contributing towards notability despite there being little motivating reason for excluding these sorts of analyses. Rather than implicitly excluding large parts of a whole academic movement of literary analysis (something that may well cut against the heart of neutrality if applied to content), I don't think that we should eliminate works whose principal methods of critique and criticism are plot description and direct quote from the piece. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:17, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think that's at all a plausible read of this proposal and discussion. An in-depth "new criticism" review that happens, by its very nature, to include a lot of detailed plot coverage is not a depth-free "review" that consists of nothing but plot coverage and some unvarnished opinion. The "reviews" that just consist of the latter drivel are what we're trying to address here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - Unneeded, WP:CREEPy. Large language models (for me the abbreviation LLM always means a master's degree in law) may be able to summarise plots but any review site that posts such summaries isn't going to pass our reliability/notability standards. This reads as though it would exclude, for example, an academic piece discussing the qualities of a particular book-character. FOARP (talk) 08:02, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Reliable sources is what confers notability, and I don't see a benefit in restricting that by subject matter. As a project that endeavors to capture the sum of human knowledge, we should lean towards keeping articles, not deleting them. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 06:28, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. There is some appropriate criticism about people imposing their preferences on a topic area without knowledge of how the sourcing in that topic area works, which to me makes this proposal a solution in search of a problem. Imzadi 1979 → 21:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose This is a solution entirely in search of a problem. Adding this to our notability guidelines is not necessary. Elli (talk | contribs) 00:18, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't a problem warranting this solution, and I think this proposal would more likely cause issues, specifically in debates/deletion discussions (per Snow Rise and Visviva). While I understand concerns about LLMs, Vaticidalprophet and FOARP have addressed how this proposal does not solve issues related to LLMs. Wracking ^talk! 05:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Current guidelines could handle this. A pure or functionally pure plot-summary would indeed not be countable towards notability, but I wouldn't exclude any plot aspect from assessing, say, Sig Cov length - as it's sort of a core bit of any review. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:28, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (book notability)

• I'm not seeing how this would make discussions much clearer. Most significant coverage of a book would have to include plot descriptions, and perhaps quotes, or there would be little to analyze. A regurgitation of a plot with no analysis probably isn't significant coverage, but from there on it's fuzzy and analysis and plot descriptions/quotes can easily be interwoven. CMD (talk) 02:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Clarification needed. What is meant by "quotes"? Does it mean "quotes from the book"? Or is it meant to include "quotes about the book"? Cbl62 (talk) 03:21, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Cbl62: Quotes from the book. Quotes about the book from the publisher or author are already excluded for lacking independence, and quotes about the book from other reviews are better sourced to said other reviews. BilledMammal (talk) 06:00, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  Can you accordingly modify the proposal to refer only to "quotes from the book"? Cbl62 (talk) 12:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Cbl62: Done. BilledMammal (talk) 12:27, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• Request - Could we get an example of a source that would be excluded by this proposal? Blueboar (talk) 12:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  I would make a more specific request for a source that (1) would be excluded by this proposal and (2) has been used to support notability (at AfD or elsewhere) without being immediately laughed out of the room. In other words, is this proposed solution solving an actual problem? Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 13:45, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  The problem is more pernicious is topic areas such as television episodes than books, but in those topic areas the horse has already bolted from the barn; I am proposing acting in this topic area because there is there is currently the potential for the horse to bolt but it hasn't yet.

  That isn't to say it is no problem in this topic area; an example of a book review used in an AfD that would be excluded by this proposal is this review. BilledMammal (talk) 05:53, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  So it is your position that sentences like "The second book in the trilogy ... probes deeper into the relationship between Calwyn and Darrow, the man she rescued from being sacrificed to the Goddess. Darrow's mysterious upbringing and how he came to wear the ruby ring that once belonged to Samis are presented through flashbacks. Kimberly Farr's melodic voice enhances the strong characterization and lyrical language of the story, drawing listeners ever deeper ... The effectiveness of the background music varies-sometimes complementing the reading, at other times distracting from it" are purely regurgitation of plot content, and are in no way transformative? And that other discussion participants should be pre-empted from making that analysis by declaring that such content is automatically non-transformative? It is a short review, but if it is to be judged too short, it should not be because it happens to mention some plot points along the way; it is largely evaluative rather than narrative. You are, in fact, presenting the perfect example of why we should not approve this proposal: because editors like you will immediately try to use it against reviews that happen to mention plot points as illustrations of their evaluative points, rather than limiting your condemnation to reviews that are only about plot. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:52, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  The proposal is that the review would need to contain significant coverage beyond plot analysis, not that it would need to contain coverage beyond plot analysis. That article contains coverage, but I don't believe it contains significant coverage.

  Since I've raised the topic of television episodes, I'm curious what you would think of sources like this and this in the context of this proposal? BilledMammal (talk) 15:32, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Both of those are secondary as they have review and commentary atop the simple recap of the episode. Masem (t) 15:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Wait, so we're not even just talking about RS plot summaries but also plot analysis? Yeah, that's even further a bridge too far. Definitely a non-starter proposal if that's where you want to set the exclusionary constraints. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 08:28, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  Plot analysis is intended to be fine - my personal metric under this proposal would be that if a sentence could support content outside a "plot" section (for example, an "analysis" section) then that sentence would count towards assessing whether the source contains SIGCOV.

  There could be difference of opinion over whether a specific sentence could support content, but I suspect that would be easy to resolve; the editor believing it does contain such content could easily demonstrate it by using said sentence to support content. BilledMammal (talk) 08:39, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  Agree with David Eppstein here. If this what you want to exclude from consideration, BilledMammal, I am even more agreed that your proposal should fail on its merits. Jclemens (talk) 03:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Informing editors of WMF research

I was recently made aware of Wikimedia Research in connection to a discussion about WP:SIZE. What kind of resources to we have here on English Wikipedia to connect editors to the research coming out of WMF and other teams focused specifically on Wikipedia? Peter ^Isotalo 16:59, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

@Peter Isotalo is there some sort of specicic policy proposal or question you have? The site you linked to already has much information on that process. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Xaosflux, I'm not looking for the research itself, I'm looking for any sign of activity of us, the editing community, trying to keep up to date with current research. For example, to help us figure out how to write guidelines on how to write articles. Peter ^Isotalo 19:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

If you (or others) are interested in this, then you might want to subscribe to the m:Research:Newsletter. It also appears as a regular feature in Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:53, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I think if you start reading up on research "to help us figure out how to write guidelines on [or?] how to write articles" you are in for a long and largely fruitless effort. Very little of it indeed is directed at that sort of thing. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red has had some good (and long) discussions on research relevant to it (most recently this, soon to be archived), but I can't remember seeing other projects having similar discussions. Johnbod (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

@John, discussions like the one you linked to are kinda what I'm interested in. Do you know of any other discussions directly related to a published research article? Peter ^Isotalo 07:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Several of these were discussed at the time. I think Tripodi's first paper had an especially long section a couple of years ago. User:Ipigott might be the best person to ask. Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I think some discussions turn up at the village pumps or other relevant discussion pages, but I'd echo Johnbod about the possibility that it will be fruitless. We sometimes don't want to believe the evidence, especially if believing it would mean that we should be doing something else. This means that if you find some research paper that says, say, "Nearly everything written about physics in the English Wikipedia is soooooo overly complicated that almost nobody can understand what the article is about, even if you have a masters degree in that exact subject", then someone will say, "Look, guys, researchers say we aren't complying with our own guideline about Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable" and another editor will show up to say "How dare those ignorant non-editors (← that's an insult) express an opinion on whether my beautiful article has any flaws! If they only knew what I suffer through, to keep people from using inaccurate and vague oversimplifications, like atomic particle instead of properly labeling them as fermions and bosons".

A few simple examples:

• Almost no readers actually read the sources, but we have editors who insist that we are adding sources to articles primarily for the sake of readers. (Sources are very useful to us as editors.)
• Almost no readers actually read past the lead, but the pinnacle of achievement is an article of several thousands of words.
• Every survey of readers says they want more pictures/multimedia, but most articles still have 0 or 1 pictures in them.
• Every report on reading says that people have an easier time reading the article if the lines of text aren't too wide and there are pictures and other elements to help "anchor" which part of the page you're on, but most articles are still an oblong gray blur, and we were very upset about the change to the width earlier this year.
• We have no reports – zero, ever – of readers being upset that Wikipedia had a simple, factual article about a business (e.g., "Bob's Business, Inc. is a widget manufacturer in Whoville. It's known for making blue-green widgets and once won a minor award", with an official link to the business's website) or similar subject they were searching for at Google, and yet some editors try to remove as many of these articles as we can because we know they're WP:NOT appropriate for Wikipedia and are just being used for spam and marketing and other forms of evil. No reader ever thinks "How terrible of them. How disgustingly low class and unencyclopedic for Wikipedia to actually have some information about this slightly obscure subject that I was trying to learn more about." It's only (some) editors who say "If we have an article about this subject, it will hurt our reputation."

I get it; some subjects are the victims of self-promotion. Sometimes people create articles that aren't viable because there are no independent sources, and an article based on a person or business praising itself is not NPOV. I've had a note to myself to sort out the changes to this article, which is about a business that builds portable shelters for use after natural disasters and for safer homeless camps. I suspect that the changes involve some marketing bafflegab (by our extremely unusual standards), but there might be some useful and appropriate factual changes in there, so I don't want to overreact. But I want you to imagine someone searching for this small(er) company. Would they be better off coming to Wikipedia and finding an article here, even if it has a bit of marketing bafflegab in it, or coming to Wikipedia and finding nothing? Or not coming to Wikipedia at all? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

All that is true, but what I really meant is that it is not the purpose or intention of most academic research into WP to "help us figure out how to write guidelines on how to write articles". Except for the common calls to "write more articles on women, dudes!", which rarely show any awareness of the effects of us covering all of history, or that by far our largest bio category is professional sportspeople, much academic research tries to extract meaningful conclusions from quantifying and analysing some very minute fraction of edits here, meeting certain conditions. The paper mentioned in the link above is an example. Academics have trained themselves in fancy mathmatical techniques for analysing big data, and want to apply their skills to the hot topic of social media, but guess what, boring old Wikipedia is the only big site that lets them get their hands on their big data. Johnbod (talk) 04:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

For medical articles, most of the papers I've seen are trying to figure out whether the articles in a given subspecialty are accurate (the alternative being "please panic now, because we have long since proven beyond any doubt that physicians and other healthcare providers use Wikipedia articles for work" – I believe that was a major source of motivation for Doc James to start editing), with "accuracy" usually defined as "matches the content in a popular textbook".

I don't pay enough attention to the broader Wikipedia-oriented research to know what's the popular subjects at the moment. I'm sure that HaeB would know. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree there's a problem with making WMF research relevant to us in the editing community and I can totally understand the annoyance regarding researchers making very obvious errors in published articles. But I don't share your grognardy grumpiness here. I think there might be some real gems in research regarding reader behavior and technical aspects, like what's been up for discussion here regarding article size.

To start with, I'm mostly trying to get a sense of how we in the editing community perceive and interact with research results. Peter ^Isotalo 09:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Topic ban

I have benn topic banned from India and Pakistan related articles. WP:TBAN says, "..... if an editor is banned from the topic "weather", this editor is forbidden from editing not only the article Weather, but also everything else that has to do with weather" which means I can't edit anything related to India or Pakistan, even if it is a subsection but can I add paraphrased text to an article citing a source that mentions many countries, perhaps even India or Pakistan (but not mention India or Pakistan in the paraphrased text)?-17:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC) 1Firang (talk) 17:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I asked the admin who topic banned me on his talk page (see this) but he has avoided answering my question.-1Firang (talk) 18:22, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Its like you can edit Marriage but you cannot edit the sentences or add new sentences that concern India or Pakistan. Editorkamran (talk) 18:43, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Can I add paraphrased text to an article citing a source that mentions many countries, perhaps even India or Pakistan (but not mention India or Pakistan in the paraphrased text)?-1Firang (talk) 10:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

If you are using a source, that mentions India or Pakistan, for the information that does not concern India or Pakistan then you are fine. Editorkamran (talk) 13:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

To be more specific:

Y You could write a sentence like "Marriage is an institution that is recognized by the laws of every country on Earth." Even though India and Pakistan are two of the larger countries in the world, this sentence only "incidentally" includes them, and it is really about the global or international fact.

Y You could write a sentence like "Marriage is an important social institution in Africa." This area is completely and obviously separated from the subject of your topic ban.

N You should not write (or change) a sentence like "Marriage is an important social institution in India and other South Asian countries." This names one of the subjects of your topic ban, and even if you left out the name and just said "South Asian countries", the two countries in your topic ban represent more than 80% of the people living in South Asia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I've received a good reply here.-1Firang (talk) 03:49, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Now archived here: Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1195#Topic ban. @1Firang: You are attempting to add the same sentence about slavery in Islam into multiple articles, now avoiding India and Pakistan, but insofar as the sentence also applies to Pakistan, you are also violating your topic ban and you are likely to be blocked. Find topic areas that are independent of Islamic law. ~Anachronist (talk) 14:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Anachronist: WP:TBAN says, "..... if an editor is banned from the topic "weather", this editor is forbidden from editing not only the article Weather, but also everything else that has to do with weather" which means I can't edit anything related to India or Pakistan, even if it is a subsection and cannot edit anything related to Pakistan under Islam related articles, that is all. Have I missed anything more?-1Firang (talk) 17:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

This is simple… if trying to add something to one article (or group of articles) is so disruptive as to earn you a topic ban… you should stop trying to add it anywhere. It will probably be seen as disruptive no matter where you add it. Blueboar (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Change wording in MOS:SUICIDE to better reflect the supermajority consensus in the RFC that added it

(de-facto) discussion on if we should change the wording

Relevant: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 164#RFC: "Committed suicide" language

I am not looking to reignite the debate on whether or not it should be banned, I am proposing to change poor wording in a MOS document.

Proposal

• Replace "The phrase committed suicide is not banned at the English Wikipedia, although many external style guides discourage it as being potentially stigmatising and offensive to some people. There are many other appropriate, common, and encyclopedic ways to describe a suicide, including:..." to better reflect the consensus of the RFC, removing any argumentation in a MOS page using external (non-wikipedia) guides running contrary to a supermajority RFC, and without the carefully worded comments preceding the alternatives, and the alternatives themselves.

Example proposed change (open to, and highly encourage alternatives):

• "The phrase committed suicide is not banned at the English Wikipedia, and usage of the phrase should match the tone and consensus of the article. Usage (or non-usage) of the phrase should not be changed without first establishing a consensus, and should never be changed to, or from, in mass or tendentiously."

This has become an example of the "every rule, someone broke" axiom.

Despite the overwhelming majority agreeing the phrase was not offensive, the choice verbiage implies that you should describe suicide in another way on a Manual of Style page. This is being used has historically been used to enforce a de facto ban on the phrase through edit warring by multiple editors[5][6] heavily implying without stating that using the phrase better follows wikipedia's guidelines. I would also like to point out that the RFC ruling says "I would urge editors not to tendentiously remove "commit suicide" everywhere it is found.". The alternatives given are either extremely informal and inappropriate for wikivoice, overly stiff or English as She is Spoke-isms, however, in certain contexts some of these, such as the more medical-phrasing examples, would be appropriate where it better fits. I do not believe use of this phrase should be required (of course) but these are not needed, and people should be free to pick an alternative if they so choose, without examples that can have suitability in given contexts disagreed upon in a MOS page.

Saying external style guides discourage using it because it's "offensive" on a MOS page effectively means you should not use it either. Juxtaposing "offensive and stigmatizing" with "appropriate, common and encyclopedic" implies that the phrase is not appropriate, common or encyclopedic. This is basic psychology, and many people are, be it intentionally or unintentionally, using it to argue that regard. This would make an excellent and highly intriguing opinion essay, especially if extrapolated upon, however, this is extremely inappropriate for a manual of style page. DarmaniLink (talk) 23:43, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd been thinking about how precisely to phrase this section since long before the current dispute. My rough formulation looks something like:

There is disagreement over the ideal way to report a suicide, and the subject can strong stir feelings. Common phrasings that may be encountered in articles include:

• committed suicide
• died by suicide
• killed oneself
• took one's own life
• died by one's own hand
• death was ruled a suicide
• cause of death was suicide
• in some contexts, the exact cause of death (e.g. "died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound")

Some editors have strong opinions about the appropriateness or inappropriateness of different phrasings, both in general or for a specific article. The issue can be emotive, and changing existing phrasings risks controversy or dispute. No phrasing is unilaterally superior to any other across every article. Articles may use multiple phrasings as a natural matter of grammar.

When writing a new article, editors can use the phrasing they are comfortable with. Some editors recommend using the specific phrasing that reports of a subject's death use. This should be balanced with the risk of close paraphrasing. Vaticidalprophet 00:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The prior RFC specifically avoided mentioning any alternatives to "commit suicide" because not all of them are widely accepted. It was deemed best to only mention "commit suicide" as the one that can be seen as problematic but acceptable, but any other phrasing that is agreed on by editors is also acceptable. Masem (t) 00:46, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

This is being juxtaposed with the disputed MOS:SUICIDE wording, which both specifically mentions alternatives and describes them as superior to "committed suicide":

The phrase committed suicide is not banned at the English Wikipedia, although many external style guides discourage it as being potentially stigmatising and offensive to some people. There are many other appropriate, common, and encyclopedic ways to describe a suicide, including:

• died as a result of suicide
• died by suicide
• died from suicide
• killed himself
• The cause of death was suicide.

I'm certainly not wedded to a list of terms, but what we currently have is a list of terms that actively end-runs around the RfC, so "list of terms that doesn't do that" seemed like a reasonable starting point. Vaticidalprophet 00:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm trying to track down where followup discussion about the LANGUAGE based on the RFC was discussed (since I led that but its been a couple of years), but my memory was that it was not to include alternate terms. However, the current language of at least the first sentence is what I recall was agreed to. And based on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles/Archive 16 there looks like there was discussion or disagreement that fell outside the original RFC and the immediate followup discussion on the language to be included. Sadly I cannot remember what board that language discussion took place, I do know it happened though. Masem (t) 01:02, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

There were also long discussions at WT:MED. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Vaticidalprophet, the number of editors who don't read this text closely, and then make up POV-pushing statements about it, is really starting to bother me. The dispute that led to this, Talk:Marie Sophie Hingst#Describing suicide, has two editors claiming that this guideline explicitly endorses their preference, when it does nothing of the sort.

Now you are here saying that the words "There are many other appropriate, common, and encyclopedic ways to describe" something is "describ[ing] them as superior". For the record: "other appropriate way" means the options are equal, not that one is superior. If I wanted to describe one option as superior, then I'd use a word like better, preferable, or even superior. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:02, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. I definitely thought, as soon as the wording was established, that it was an attempt to present the alternatives as superior (when I made this edit I expected the section to be gone in about six months, and am genuinely surprised it's still there). It seems that the idea it's trying to present those terms as superior is a common interpretation by both people who support use of 'committed' phrasings and people who oppose it. Vaticidalprophet 01:06, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

That probably says more about Wikipedians' ingrained habit of following reliable sources than about anything else; when we go against the sources, some of us feel like we are inherently doing something wrong. The external guidelines, suicide prevention groups, medical associations (especially the British ones), etc., would probably all agree that the "alternatives" are superior. However, many Wikipedia editors do not happen to agree with the reliable sources, and our guideline does not say that any of the options are better or worse than any of the others. (For the record, it also does not say that these are the only possible or acceptable options.)

One of the main reasons that I wanted alternatives is so that we wouldn't set up a false dichotomy between the "offensive" committed and the "grating" died by options, which is how a lot of these discussions have run in the past. For example, in the Marie Sophie Hingst article, I'm quite happy with the bit you wrote that runs "Hingst was found dead in her Dublin apartment on 17 July 2019 at the age of 31. Her death was ruled a suicide". It provides more factual information than either of the disputed options (e.g., that this is the outcome of an official inquiry, not just the best guess before the investigation completed), and it cannot be accused of having any of the alleged faults of the disputed options. I think it is extremely well done. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I've definitely been careful re. terminology throughout that article. The lead requires somewhat less depth than the body, so had to go for a shorter phrasing.

I made the comparison on the talk page of the person-first language controversy. I think this is an apt comparison -- person-first language was for quite a while "the thing all major style guides enforced", and still is for many of them, out of a good-faith attempt to combat ableism and stigma. Eventually, disabled people who found person-first language markedly more ableist and stigmatizing managed to say this loudly and consistently enough for it to be occasionally listened to. For various reasons, Wikipedia has tended to have more people who are in a position to have strong opinions on that language question than the general population; it seems to me that it also does for suicide terminology. The equivalent of changing all uses of "committed suicide" feels to me like somebody going through Disability Day of Mourning find-replacing that article to person-first language; they would almost certainly be doing so in good faith, and feel completely justified by mainstream style guides. They would also quite drastically miss the point. Vaticidalprophet 06:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm a huge fan of this proposed change, and I think we should start moving forward with ironing it out to be appropriate for a MOS page. DarmaniLink (talk) 17:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I think we need to keep the reference to external style guides, because we need to acknowledge that they exist (and are important to some editors). Darmani seems fairly new to these discussions, so they might not have seen the pattern, but most of them go this way:

• Alice: Why is this offensive, stigmatizing language in this article? Don't you all know that external style guides strongly advise against it?
• Bob: You can't tell me what words to use on wiki.
• Alice: Experts have issued guidelines about the best way to talk about this subject. Wikipedia should follow the reliable sources!
• Bob: I don't care. This is absolutely normal, everyday English in my personal experience. Wikipedia editors decide what words we should use, not reliable sources.

MOS:SUICIDE has said, for a couple of years now, basically that "Wikipedia editors say it's not banned, but external guidelines say they disapprove." By acknowledging that external guidelines exist, and that we are deliberately choosing not to follow them, we can sidestep this whole bit about editors assuming that this language (where it exists) was chosen out of ignorance of the guidelines. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:56, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

While I can certainly see WhatamIdoing's general point, I have to agree with DarmaniLink's finding that the material as presently written is clearly psychologically manipulative. Even the phrasing "many external style guides" rather than, say, "some external style guides", is attempting to lead the editor by a ring in the nose.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:55, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

AFAICT it would be factually accurate to say "all of the external style guides and similar recommendations published during the last 5–10 years that say anything about the language used to talk about suicide in the news or online", so I don't think it would be fair to imply that it's only a minority of them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

If we're going to mention the external guidelines, we need to explicitly state that wikipedia is not beholden to them, not simply imply it. As you acknowledge with the number of people who take it out of context, its an "every rule, someone broke" case DarmaniLink (talk) 05:44, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, "psychologically manipulative?" The whole point is to affect how Wikipedians say things, so the intent of all policy, guideline and style pages is manipulative, if you like.—S Marshall T/C 08:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Most guidelines are written like an instruction manual. This is trying to tell you that an acceptable way to do things is actually unacceptable, because of the editor's preference, which goes decisively against the overwhelming community's preference (roughly 90%, if you look at the relevant RFC), and doing so in an indirect/slimy way. That's the problem at hand. DarmaniLink (talk) 13:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

We already explicitly state that Wikipedia does not choose to follow their advice, in the first half of that very sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

That's not the problem, merely stating its "not banned" means most people will still claim its inferior, or "not banned" means its discouraged. As we have seen by people twisting the wording to mean exactly that, it needs to change. DarmaniLink (talk) 16:46, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

So... you're saying that the sentence accurately informs editors that reliable sources believe that this wording is inferior? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Per the consensus on the previous RFC page, the overwhelming majority of people have disagreed with this assertion. This is precisely why this wording needs to be changed by someone without a bias towards the side that went against consensus. We as a community, collectively decide through consensus whether or not a source is reliable or not, and the collective opinion - the consensus, has been that the sources calling the phrase "(to) commit suicide" "offensive" are unreliable in this regard. DarmaniLink (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Exactly.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:40, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I wonder whether that say anything about the language used is a form of selection bias. How many that find either wording acceptable have a need to say so? We do because otherwise people will edit war over it, but most publishers don't have any opportunity for edit warring in the first place. Anomie⚔ 13:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Having spent hours (weeks) on this subject a few years ago, I don't think this is a significant factor. This is a widespread norm now. I suppose that someone could dismiss the whole thing as merely being "the current fad", but at this point any such source would be so out of step with the others that it would feel like a publication recommending homosexual instead of gay or same-sex – you would wonder if they were pushing a political agenda.

This is one of the weird things about this discussion:

• If you went to a Wikipedia editor and said, "Hey, calling this gay man a homosexual is generally considered offensive by all of these gay groups and media organizations, so let's not do that", you'd expect the editor to stop doing it.
• If you said, "Hey, calling this Black American a colored person is generally considered offensive by all of these African-American groups and media organizations, so let's not do that", you'd expect the editor to stop doing it.
• If you said, "Hey, calling this person with mental illness crazy is generally considered offensive by all of these self-advocacy groups and media organizations, so let's not do that", you'd expect the editor to stop doing it.
• If you said, "Hey, calling these people Gypsies is generally considered offensive by all of these cultural groups and media organizations, so let's not do that", you'd expect the editor to stop doing it.

The fact is that even when editors personally don't agree that these words should be considered offensive, we care enough about Wikipedia's formal, encyclopedic tone to not give unnecessary offense, and we respect the reliable sources enough to accept that they know what's offensive.

But when we say:

• "Hey, saying that someone committed suicide is generally considered offensive by all of these suicide prevention groups and media organizations, so let's not do that" – we find a a bunch of editors who insist that the people it's perfectly fine to upset other people, that no possible alternative is acceptable, and even that I'm not upset and therefore the people claiming to be offended aren't actually bothered by it, or that they don't matter, and the so-called reliable sources are all biased and should therefore be ignored in favor of our personal opinions.

I have found publications (e.g., major US newspapers, but not UK ones) that still use the committed language, but there is a tendency to use the committed language in, say, book reviews, rather than in obituaries or current events. In the instant case of Marie Sophie Hingst, not a single cited source uses the committed language. I don't think that should be an absolute barrier, because I think we should Wikipedia:Use our own words, but it is jarring to see some editors loudly proclaim that we should follow the sources in every area...except this one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:44, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Faulty analogy. There are no suicides who object to the phrase "committed suicide", by definition. There are living people whose lives have been affected by someone else's suicide (and I'm among them), but this same group of people also tend to favor death euphemisms in general, as do all survivors of a death in their circle. See MOS:EUPHEMISM – WP does not allow it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:45, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Personally what bugs me is how often it seems people push their political agenda by demanding everyone change language to avoid the latest term they've decided offends them. I have trouble keeping up. But we're getting off topic. Anomie⚔ 22:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm tempted to just create a new section specifically dedicated to how, exactly, we should rephrase that section and see if we can come up with something we agree on. DarmaniLink (talk) 22:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

If you said, "Hey, calling these people Gypsies is generally considered offensive by all of these cultural groups and media organizations, so let's not do that" -- well, no, to the point it's itself a great example of the problem with working out language top-down. Gypsy is considered a slur by a lot of non-Travellers/Roma and some Travellers/Roma, and a self-ID by many Travellers/Roma. Wikipedia, obviously, has quite a lot more people who aren't in groups that are affected by this than people who are, so we tend to break the former way because it's the way better-known to "people who aren't Gypsy/Traveller/Rom and don't know any Gypsy/Traveller/Rom people", but it's a substantially more complicated term that makes up many people's Anglophone self-ID, or equivalent in non-English. The organization linked is, as it happens, one that goes out of their way to use "died by suicide" and is run mostly by Gypsy/Traveller/Rom people, so you'd imagine if the term was inveterately offensive they wouldn't use it (also speaking from personal experience). This is a microcosm of the problems with external guides that aren't actually formed by representative-community consultation, rather than "a minority of people able to jump through the social hoops that lets them become sensitivity readers for the NYT". Vaticidalprophet 02:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes. What is often missed in discussions like this (at least until I get into them) is that "style guide" or "stylebook" is not one thing, but a broad catch-all for very un-like publications. When people say "lots of style guides recommend [X]", we have to find out whether they mean style guides that MoS cares about, that are written for academic-leaning writing and curated by a body of editors whose primary agenda is clear writing, or whether the editor is pushing a piece of activism literature published by a group of "reformers" along with some journalism style guides that (through the activities of the aformentioned "sensistivity readers", a pool of people with deep ties to the activism bodies) closely reflect the wants of the activism bodies. Most often it's the latter, and they are not reliable sources on English usage, but are politicized works trying to change English usage. If they actually succeed in that change goal, as reflected across pretty much the entirety of contemporary professional writing in English, then WP's MoS will adopt a conforming change. (Thus, e.g., MOS:GENDERID.) But WP never "leads the charge" in language-change movements. We did not when it came to how to write about trans and nonbinary peopple, and the community will was very clear in the RfC relevant to this thread that we will not when it comes to suicide terminology. (This also goes for more prosaic matters. E.g. MOS:JR wasn't changed to remove the comma in constructions like "Sammy Davis[,] Jr." until long after it was common to drop the comma, because advice to do so did not yet appear in the academic-leaning style guides like Chicago that MoS is based on. Same goes for using -'s in possessives the root noun of which ends in -s; until the latest editions, Chicago and Garner's still were okay with writing "Jesus'", but when they changed to "Jesus's", so did we.) On this particular topic, no amount of thumping of style guides from psychological associations with an agenda to push or journalism style guides who have bought that agenda is going to make MoS change faster, because the style guides MoS actually develops from doing agree with them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

As I recall, most of the discussions around LGBTQ style questions over the years have been settled by invoking the media guide for GLAAD, and basically never by refering to any sort of "academic-leaning writing and curated by a body of editors whose primary agenda is clear writing". We love CMoS, but I don't think it's ever been consulted over a question like which terms are offensive to which marginalized communities. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:17, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I've been here for the entire span of those debates. GLAAD was pushing for years and years for changes in the kinds of language that is now, finally, covered in a very limited way by MOS:GENDERID, and MoS still has not changed to conform to GLAAD's viewpoint on various things. The changes that have been made here were not because of GLAAD's or any other activism source's advocacy wording in their own style guides, it was because real-world usage had provably shifted, across the entire swath of English-language writing. (One could of course say that GLAAD's effect on those publishers probably ultimately led to the MoS changes, but it was not a direct GLAAD→MoS pipeline.) Several other MoS changes have come about that way, through aggregate analysis of language shift, because (yes) sometimes the academic style guides don't cover something at all, or they adjust on something too slowly. But advocacy-based style guides are not where we get the impetus to change from; rather, it is overwhelming evidence of usage change in news, recent academic book publishing, aggregate journal searches, and other independent material. That (plus the recent change in Garner's, a style guide MoS is heavily based on) is going to be how the WP consenus on "committed suicide" will change. I guarantee it. People have already been pushing the advocacy sources for years now, without any consensus movement.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Looking at discussions about individual articles, rather than discussions about the official guidelines, I'd say that GLAAD's media recommendation has had a pretty significant influence over the years.

I don't really care whether Wikipedia's consensus on committed changes (e.g., during this decade; during my lifetime). My goal is for editors to accurately understand that we currently don't ban either adding or removing it (except for mindless mass changes – in either direction – or changes – again, in either direction – to a particular paragraph/article when you have specific knowledge that the wording there has been intentionally chosen or is supported by consensus for that particular paragraph/article), and that some people disapprove of it (because it's not nice for editors to be surprised by changes to what's considered socially acceptable). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Re: "all of the external style guides and similar recommendations published during the last 5–10 years that say anything about the language used to talk about suicide in the news or online" – Yeah, that's a self-selecting-group fallacy. No style guide has any reason to mention this topic at all unless they have a language-change-advocacy position to push against "commit suicide".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The idea that a style guide only mentions topics that are a source of current language-change activism is nonsense. I do wonder sometimes if people read what they write and even stop for a minute to ponder if it holds up for something else they aren't themselves an activist on Wikipedia about (which includes language conservativism extremists). Style guides offer advice on all the things WAID listed above about gay/black/mental illness/Roma and the very old advice about not being bloody sexist. Can you imagine writing the words "No style guide has any reason to mention that you shouldn't refer to doctors as "he" and nurses as "she" unless they have a language-change-advocacy position to push against this so-called sexism".

What MOS:SUICIDE says is accurate and fair and balanced. To downgrade "many" to "some", for example, as SMcCandlish thinks would be an improvement, isn't evidence based. There are no guidelines looking at how suicide should be written about that say "committed" is absolutely fine and what's more there are no reasonable alternatives. The idea that nobody ever thinks and writes about how to discuss suicide unless they are some kind of extremist language-change activist is simply untrue. It is a hugely sensitive topic that deserves sensitive discussion and isn't served well by language conservatives writing any old crap that seemed to advance their position. -- Colin°^Talk 09:24, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

You're putting words in my mouth. I never suggested that style guides only include advice on things they want to change. (Some style guides like Chicago are almost overwhelmingly comprehensive, yet still do not address this question.) What I'm saying is that style guides don't include advice on this particular matter unless they have an advocacy position about it. It's because there is no reason to mention it otherwise. Style guides also don't include advice on whether to write "cats and dogs" in that order or "dogs and cats", because no one cares. If there suddenly became a socio-politicized reason to care among a particular camp, then various style guides that align with that camp would stake out a camp-aligned position on the matter, while other style guides would probably remain silent, not caring about it (in theory some might take the opposite position, if they cared, but cared from the opposite socio-political perspective). What's really interesting here is that the style guides that do (pretty uniformly against) address "committed suicide" are either a) explicitly being activistic about it, or b) are journalism style guides, and the latter are positively overflowing with "how to avoid ever even unintentionally offending anyone for any reason" advice, because newspapers and news sites and news shows have an excessive concern about this (they get lots of hate mail/calls if they even accidentally offend one "class" or another). These rationales have little to do with encyclopedia writing, and MoS explicitly rejects this "someone somewhere might get upset" reasoning at every turn (see, e.g., MOS:DOCTCAPS). Another interesting thing: One of the most comprehensive style guides that MoS is actually based on is Garner's Modern English (current ed. that I know of is 2016). It has a detailed entry at "suicide", and excoriates the "self-killing" and "self-murder" synonyms as "charged with extremely negative connotations", but not "committed suicide", despite the author and editors clearly having thought about what is and isn't negatatively connotational. (Probably because they understand that it can be and probably usually is intepreted as the "commit" in "committed to a course of action" not the "commit" in "committed a crime", though of course I can't read their minds.) This demonstrates clearly that other style guide authors than the ones you like have weighed in on the matter without agreeing with your preferred writers.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish, a new edition of Garner's Modern English was published about eight months ago. The new edition adds, in between the old line (which appears to be unchanged) about the verb suicided (item "C") sounding trendy and semiliterate (which @Dhtwiki will be pleased to note has survived to the fifth edition), and the old note (marked "*") on not talking about suicide victims (also apparently unchanged):

D. Commit suicide vs. die by suicide. Since about 2000, style manuals have come to avoid commit suicide, which is now considered insensitive because of its whiff of criminality. The trend is to prefer die by suicide, kill onself, or take one's own life.

So if the argument is that Garner doesn't mention it so it's not important, or that style manuals in general don't have an opinion, or that they have a diversity of opinions – well, Garner now says that style manuals haven't supported this particular wording for the last two decades.

As a side note, we can also rejoice that with the fifth edition, Garner has finally stopped using mentally retarded (except in one unnecessary quotation). That change, too, appears to have taken about two decades to come to his attention. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:01, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That is actually important, since Garner's is one of the style guides MoS is actually based on, and (importantly), the change is based on observation of a shift in practice, not on advocacy that such as shift should happen. I think this will go a long way to convincing editors to change their minds on this the next time there's an RfC on the matter that proposes a specific language change to the guideline. (I think this current discussion is rather a dead stick.) As my own side note, I'm faintly irritated that there's already a new Garner's edition, since it's more money I have to spend on books that don't last long enough.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:10, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

It's US$30 but it looks like it'll be £40 for you, with basically the same prices for the used market. Maybe WMUK could buy it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

OH, I'm over here in YankeeLand. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The problem however, boils down to that we as a community have rejected those style guides on the grounds that the justification for the new stylistic guidelines is untrue. You are conflating something that can be demonstrably proven false (all doctors are male and all nurses are female) with something, that ultimately boils down to social taboos/pressures, offensiveness. Whether not something is offensive is up to a community to decide. I'll reiterate this, that we decide as a collective whether or not a source is reliable, and through a supermajority, we decided that the phrase is not offensive - meaning we have rejected the style guides, ergo, they are not considered reliable in this regard. Whether or not is offensive, or isn't offensive is no longer a question. Whether or not the guides are, or are not relevant, is no longer a relevant question. The RFC has already rejected both those propositions, and we now need to move forward with how to change it. DarmaniLink (talk) 09:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

No the community has not rejected those style guides. What happened was the community did not agree to ban "committed suicide" (i.e. endorse editors to scan all of Wikipedia for that phrase and replace it with another, which is an extremely extremely big ask on this project). So that is not the same thing. And there certainly wasn't even a majority view that the justification in those style guides was "untrue". And no, whether or not something is offensive is not up to this community to decide. The RFC did not decide that the phrase is not offensive. The RFC did not determine that the style guides are "not considered reliable in this regard". No, the matter is not settled for all time. If you have a discussion, like this one, and like future ones, we aren't compelled by previous discussions for all time. Considering that every single claim you just made is wrong, I really can only repeat that you should not be driving this change and this is an inappropriate time and place to discuss that.

We have a situation where a number of language conservatives take the view that they themselves, personally, have to be convinced of the negatives or positives or some phrase or word or other. While they remain unconvinced, they will write just about anything, even and especially things that they really are bright and clever enough to know are total nonsense. It is frustrating because it isn't an intelligent way to discuss a topic. And we have a situation where this publication is wide open to mass edits, which makes us generally reluctant to endorse that specific words should never or should always be used. That the project cannot currently find a resolution, is not the same thing as saying the language conservative viewpoint has won (editors can never change "committed suicide" once it is inserted in an article, and further more, no guideline can ever suggest that there might be ways of writing about that that don't offend some of our readers). It means we have not reached an agreement on the best practice and no more.

WhatamIdoing achieved a remarkable degree of balance and fairness in what was discussed and inserted into MEDMOS. There will always be editors who misunderstand guidelines and misunderstand RFC results and make claims on article talk pages, as what sparked this off. Those editors have been gently told they were wrong. That should be the end really. To continue on with incorrect claims and falsehoods is disruptive activism, and I advise you to stop. -- Colin°^Talk 11:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Every other editor in this discussion except for WAID and you has taken issue with the current wording. I never said they can never change it, I said they should not tendentiously change the wording, such as the two examples in the first proposal. Certain phrasings are vastly inferior or terrible english, and mentioning the style guides endorses one phrasing. If you read through the RFC, people stated their experience with suicide, and stated the term is idiomatic. The problem comes down to that ultimately, we are being asked to abide by the letter of the guideline and not the spirit of the guideline, which is obviously worded in a certain way to tell editors how to think/edit, and suggest that the primary example of phrasing is inferior. It has been used to this regard, and as I have said time and time again, "every rule, someone broke". If a rule is unclear, it should be clarified. You do not wish to clarify it, because you are on the side which can abuse the poor wording. The fact that you use the term "language conservative" is indicative of this.

I have suggested that we should not include any examples, and that is my preference. To give a blank statement, endorsing no specific phrasing. Some people will be offended by explicit mentions of death, some muslims will be offended by depictions of Muhammed, some jewish people will be offended by the use of "god" and not "g-d". Don't misrepresent what I have said by implying I have said no alternative is acceptable. I am not an activist, nor do I engage in activism. Attempting to prevent activists from doing exactly what they have tried to do, is not activism. Its keeping things smooth, and preventing further similar disputes from occurring, wasting everyone's time. I do not understand why you are so obsessed with not improving an inferior wording which has already led to problems. DarmaniLink (talk) 12:10, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

DarmaniLink, VaticidalProphet was already at your Talk:Marie Sophie Hingst dispute with their opinion. Masem watchlisted Robin Williams for years, reverting anyone who changed the "committed suicide" wording. And SMcCandlish is so thoroughly hostile to style guides that he's written essays about how they are a fallacy on Wikipedia. So nobody is in any way surprised that those two turned up at the mention of suicide and style guides. Indeed, if they hadn't, someone might be concerned for their health or wonder if they'd retired. S Marshall didn't offer an opinion, just a comment on SMcCandlish's claim. And I can assure you that the entire rest of Wikipedia is rolling their eyes and going "not this again, please make it stop". I have read the RFC. You are taking the bits and comments you agree with and supposing those are the only views. Agreeing that we don't agree is an outcome. It isn't that I don't wish to clarify it, and accusing me of not wanting to clarify it "because you are on the side which can abuse the poor wording" is not civil. I actually wish the wording said other things but I think the compromise WAID came up with is what we have to live with right now. Wrt activisms, generally people think the activists are the other guys. If you find yourself thinking that when filling the village pump with text about how wrong everyone else is and how right you are.... I'm going to do something more interesting now and strongly advise you do to the same. -- Colin°^Talk 12:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

your Talk:Marie Sophie Hingst dispute with their opinion -- for clarity on the possessive. (It was >99% before Citationbot.) My view of that dispute is that I am perfectly happy for people to use whatever terms they want in articles they write, and would appreciate the same. Vaticidalprophet 13:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

As you say, you wrote the article and I do think that's worth something in terms of opinions that count, for that article. -- Colin°^Talk 13:10, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

That's dangerous thinking around here (WP:OWN, WP:VESTED).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

This is an open forum for anyone to state a disagreement if they think it should not change. Silence is not agreement, nor is it disagreement, it is a null vote. I looked through and found people have previously suggested issues with you being believed to be dominating the MOSMED space, so there's no surprise that you turned up here either. I was suggesting we change the wording, however, you and WAID are opening the door to reigniting the debate I said I do not want to reignite in the opening proposal. If you think it should not be changed, that's your choice. However, the current discussion is that we change it, and if we do, how. Rather than shut out any conversation, argue that you think it should/shouldn't change. You clearly think it shouldn't, but have not responded to the questioning as to why you would like to preserve a wording that needs to be abided by the letter of, and not the implicit spirit of where others have also said that it suggests one phrasing is inferior, when the writer itself in this thread has said "i was trying to weigh them all equally, see, I said other". Everyone has their own biases, including you, and attempting to discredit them on the basis of that is hurting any future argument you might have in this discussion. DarmaniLink (talk) 13:12, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Um, a proposal generates debate. That's the process, pretty much by definition. And there's no point in vaguely casting aspersions at people for "turning up in" debates that are within their scope of interest.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with him engaging in debate, my problem is the thread derailing back into the same old tired argument on if its offensive/not offensive, if it should/shouldn't be banned, etc. It's his choice to argue this, and his right to, however, I did say I wanted to avoid this. I'm trying to keep this conversation moving, so we can hopefully reach an outcome. I'm trying to keep this on topic, so I hopefully don't have to waste an admin's time, and every one elses, with involving the obnoxious bureaucracy of a DRN, because allowing the same old tired debate to rear its ugly head again devolved into the exact back and forth and heated emotions I knew it would. Everyone seems to agree its unclear, and needs are careful reading, but the implications of it being unclear are disagreed upon. I want to discuss this and hopefully have something productive come out of this discussion that expanded on a previous RFC. DarmaniLink (talk) 22:53, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I do not agree that it is unclear, and I don't think I'm the only one who believes that it is clear. Every now and again we have to remind people (who want to remove it) that it's not banned on wiki, and every now and again we have to remind people (who want to keep it) that it's not required to be kept in any article, but most experienced editors can keep in mind two things at once, whether that's "Wikipedia doesn't ban it, but basically all the external guidelines disapprove of us using it", or "Wikipedia is not censored, but basically all the style guides think websites open to the public shouldn't show actual photos of people having sex".

I agree that it needs careful reading. Sometimes that is inevitable. When the subject matter needs to balance competing interests, the result sometimes requires Close reading, or at least a willingness to ask questions. Wikipedia:Policy writing is hard. We know that, and that's why we're willing to answer your questions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:09, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

See WP:WL - We are told to abide by the spirit of the rule, not the letter of the rule. Telling people to look at the letter of the rule and read it over carefully is telling them to go against what they *think* it's trying to say. If the letter of the rule is taking precedent over the implied spirit of the rule, then its awfully written, especially if it's become a perennial problem.

It would be EXTREMELY productive to, even if we have to make the rule more verbose, rewrite it in a better way, and if you no longer wish to revisit this every time someone finds this and says "yeah, no this is horribly written", then it would be beneficial to participate in a conversation to rewrite it so you can say "hey, i was part of the effort to rewrite this", rather than attempt to shut down any conversation that seeks to change it so you don't lose your additition to the MOS. DarmaniLink (talk) 09:42, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That's actually pretty well said, but I don't think any of the proposals floated below (including mine) are going to fix this wording.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

how should we change the wording?

As the previous discussion got off topic, I would like to restart the discussion here. I would like to use Vaticalprophet's rough draft as the starting point. This is more or less going to be set in stone (as its going in a manual of style page to be cited in relevant discussions), so lets ensure its not going to be WP:WL'd to imply things it does not.

There is disagreement over the ideal way to report a suicide, and the subject can strong stir feelings. Common phrasings that may be encountered in articles include:

• committed suicide
• died by suicide
• killed oneself
• took one's own life
• died by one's own hand
• death was ruled a suicide
• cause of death was suicide
• in some contexts, the exact cause of death (e.g. "died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound")

Some editors have strong opinions about the appropriateness or inappropriateness of different phrasings, both in general or for a specific article. The issue can be emotive, and changing existing phrasings risks controversy or dispute. No phrasing is unilaterally superior to any other across every article. Articles may use multiple phrasings as a natural matter of grammar.

When writing a new article, editors can use the phrasing they are comfortable with. Some editors recommend using the specific phrasing that reports of a subject's death use. This should be balanced with the risk of close paraphrasing.

Lets brainstorm some clarifications/wordings we feel are better, or decide this is good enough for a MOS page. DarmaniLink (talk) 22:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• suicided — short, direct, unambiguous, neutral. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:10, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  Personally, in my opinion we shouldn't list examples at all, as to avoid influencing people or giving people a way to WP:WL into shoehorning an alternative, but if the consensus is to keep the examples, we should add this as an option, being extra careful not to allow the list to become large. I'll let the others weigh in. DarmaniLink (talk) 00:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  When we didn't give editors a list of alternatives, we had problems with people thinking that died by was the only option endorsed by external guidelines. We need this list for practical reasons. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• If nothing else, I think we should remove from any list of alternatives the phrases (currently in MOS:SUICIDE, with my emphasis here) "died as a result of suicide", "cause of death was suicide" as they are inaccurate. Suicide was the act, not the cause of death. The cause of death was (for example) asphyxiation/hanging, gunshot etc. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  Some editors have strong opinions about the appropriateness or inappropriateness of different phrasings over the ideal way to report a suicide, and the subject can strong stir feelings, both in general or for a specific article. The issue can be emotive, and changing existing phrasings risks controversy or dispute. No phrasing is unilaterally superior to any other across every article. Articles may use multiple phrasings as a natural matter of grammar.When writing a new article, editors can use the phrasing they are comfortable with. Some editors recommend using the specific phrasing that reports of a subject's death use. This should be balanced with the risk of close paraphrasing.

  How does this look? If you (or anyone else) thinks anything could be worded better, please say so. We could also keep the list with only "committed suicide", "died by suicide", "killed (one's)self" and "suicided" DarmaniLink (talk) 00:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  Since, at the previous RfC, "committed suicide" was objected to because for some the word had connotations of sinfulness or criminality. It might do to warn editors that this widely used, and to me quite neutral, phrase has become contentious and has been deprecated by some influential style guides. Other than making that clear, we don't need to offer a menu of substitutes. "Died by suicide" has become common, but it seems redundant, if not illiterate, as "suicide" implies death. "Suicided" seems even more clumsy, and it is quite informal and unencyclopedic in tone. There are more graceful and informative ways of stating how such deaths happen. We don't need to present a list that seems to limit the ways by which it can be expressed. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  "Suicided" seems even more clumsy, and it is quite informal and unencyclopedic in tone — How is a single word "clumsy"? How is a single, neutral, unambiguous (when used intransitively) word "unencyclopedic"? Surely succinct, neutral and unambiguous is exactly what we want in an encyclopedia.
  Note that the word suicide as a verb is not new - SOED (6th edition, 2007) says since mid-19th century, and Wiktionary lists usages of suicided in 1917, 1953. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  I heard "suicided" as movie dialogue I heard somewhere, although I couldn't find the movie, which was what made me think of it as too informal for use here. Add to that the fact that the stem is felt as a noun, and I remember injunctions against using nouns as verbs when something, anything, else will do. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Just based on what I've seen, people use suicided to mean something different nowadays; see the first 3 definitions of 'suicided' on Urban Dictionary. Some1 (talk) 23:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  The problem with mentioning anything about the external guides at all is that other editors have used this to bully other editors into conforming to their preferred terminology by implying the other choice is inferior for that reason. It could be on an article mentioning the phraseology of suicide, but MOS pages follow the consensus of wikipedians, not, and especially not external guides. DarmaniLink (talk) 07:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  "Suicided" and "died by suicide" are both controversial on wording/readability grounds (and have additional, different controversies attached for each one of them). I tend to think of "suicided" as a term people are not willing to use in wikivoice, like "completed suicide", on opposite ends of a spectrum. (I'm sure there are articles using both, though.) The paragraph by itself is probably fine, though I'd add a parabreak before 'when writing a new article'. Someone on my talk queried whether "unilaterally" should be "universally", which, sure, make any necessary readability changes. Vaticidalprophet 07:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  On "suicided", Garner's Modern English (one of the style guides MoS is genuinely based on) says "these verb uses sound trendy and semiliterate".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  When writing a new article, editors can use the phrasing they are comfortable with is true, but will provoke WP:OWN concerns. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:13, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Mitch Ames, I have a lot of gut-level sympathy for this understanding of the "as a result of" wording, but I think if you think it through, you'll see that it is accurate. Consider the case of a swimmer jumping into a river, and dying because they misjudged the depth of the water. They "died as a result of jumping" – jumping is obviously an action – and even though the death certificate will list the cause of death as some version of internal trauma (or head and neck trauma, if they dove in) as the immediate cause, it will go on to say (if it follows modern standards) that the injury was precipitated by jumping into shallow water. Even without seeing the official ruling, everyone will intuitively understand that the death was "as a result of" jumping into unexpectedly unsafe situation.

  As for suicide not being properly a cause of death, I think that if you wanted to be precise, you would say that it is the Manner of death, namely whether it is a Death by natural causes or a Death by unnatural causes (mostly accidental death, suicide, and homicide). But since the two sub-types of "manner" are called "causes", and since the language varies by jurisdiction, it is perhaps not surprising that the "cause of death was suicide" is the much more common, idiomatic phrase. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Vaticidalprophet, while I appreciate your effort consider this matter, I don't think right now and this forum is the place to discuss changes to the guideline. Right now we have editors who are engaged in a battle and that's a bad time to modify MOS. What is proposed above guts what the guideline has said. The very proposal that started this is flawed. I think also it is important to remember that MEDMOS is a style guide, not an editor behaviour guide. I'm not over-keen on even the existing behaviour advice in the text and oppose writing even more as suggested above. Nor is MOS a "RFC closure", where we discuss what "some editors" believe. Some editors believe (when it suits them, and ignore when it doesn't) things that are wrong, such as the idea that we are compelled to use the language of our sources: Wikipedia:Use our own words. People will say anything sometimes, invent policies and mythical guidelines, when it seems to fit their argument, but it doesn't hold as a general argument. I think for matters where Wikipedians cannot agree on the best words and language, offering information about the issue and, yes, referring to external advice, is exactly in keeping with our mission to educate. -- Colin°^Talk 09:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Well said.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

How about some behaviour advice

The problem with all these issues of language is that people confuse behavioural advice with content advice. Whether our article text is better written this way or that way is content, and we are all such different people that we write differently. Here's my thoughts on behaviour, which doesn't belong on a MOS page.

• Making mass similar changes to articles had better be very much uncontentious and better still have a clear consensus in its favour. Editors who make mass contentious edits (or continue after they've been told the edits are contentious) usually find themselves topic banned or worse.
• If you think an article would be improved by changing a word or phrase be bold.
• You are far far more likely to find word-changes accepted if you are also improving the whole text. For example, many paragraphs on Wikipedia are badly written, uncited or cite old sources. How about entirely rewriting the paragraph with new sources and better English overall. Then nobody can see you secretly removed "whilst".
• If someone reverts you, discuss on the article talk page.
• You might find that other editors share your enlightened views or at least are happy to accommodate your opinion. Not every page on Wikipedia is watchlisted by Neaderthals.* If you have consensus to redo the change or some compromise wording, go ahead. (* this is humour. Also, Neanderthals were very intelligent).
• Don't edit war.
• If other editors disagree then you don't have consensus. At this point you may find or be informed about some big RFC. There's a very very strong chance that the person citing that RFC is not being entirely honest or accurate in their interpretation of the outcome. For example, an RFC that closes with no consensus to change or add some rule is very very much not the same as an RFC that closes with consensus to add entirely the opposite rule.
• A "no consensus" RFC or the lack of formal recommendation at MOS means editors can come to their own agreement. Don't be bullied by anyone claiming there is an agreement when there really isn't.
• People make mistakes and misinterpret MOS or RFCs. Assume good faith and be ready to apologise if you got something wrong.
• Some topics have repeated RFCs. That's a sign the issue is very contentious and the community cannot find agreement.
• In these cases, do not assume that the community must stop what it is doing and have yet another of these big RFCs just so you can get clarity on the wording change you made (or opposed) on that one article. *cough*
• Similarly, if the issue has been the subject to thousands of words of discussion by dozens of editors, then banging on about it endlessly on the article talk page is just as likely to be fruitless. Know when to give up.
• Some battles over wording are a reflection of real-world culture wars. Whether that is specific culture wars about transgender, say, or more general progressive vs conservative and anti-woke politics. Such battles are inevitable on Wikipedia and generally don't advance the project.
• Editors who find themselves on either side of these culture or political wars are activists. The conservatives are activists. The progressives are activists. Nobody likes to think they are the activist.
• As already pointed out elsewhere, if you find yourself in a content dispute and want to change guidelines in order to win that dispute, Wikipedia regards that as Wikipedia:Gaming the system.
• MOS:SUICIDE (as currently written) offers some advice for editors to discuss the best text for the topic of suicide. But with all guidelines, it is up to you guys to take that information and see if there is a consensus or try to work towards one, and know when to accept there isn't or it isn't the one you wanted.

I hope this advice helps editors at Marie Sophie Hingst resolve their dispute. You really don't need to change policy or guideline to achieve that. None of this advice will be new to anybody here. Most of us have been-there-done-that-got-the-scars-to-prove-it. -- Colin°^Talk 13:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I would really appreciate it if you do not frame this as attempting to change policy over a dispute, I saw a guideline being misinterpreted, twice, which told me this needs to change, and ask that you would stay on topic without leaving snarky edits to the discussion. I'm going to ask that you voluntarily remove this derailing sub discussion. DarmaniLink (talk) 13:54, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I didn't note that you originally were disputing at Otoya Yamaguchi and only joined in the dispute at Marie Sophie Hingst. I read the dispute here which mysteriously you blanked after you became uncivil. I don't see any misinterpretation by Damien Linnane. In fact, I see you make multiple mistakes, some of which you wouldn't have made if you read the above. DarmaniLink, looking at the dispute on that talk page I can only repeat my strong advice that you abandon this because being agressive, rude and offensive towards others and then trying to get MOS fixed so you were "right all along" is likely to end badly. Oh, and don't remove other people's text. -- Colin°^Talk 14:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

You were derailing the thread and this is slowly approaching WP:BLUDGEON territory from you and the other editor, where we are trying to move forward with a discussion that developed into an argument. I am trying to keep things moving, per the original proposal. You added something irrelevant, so I took the executive action to remove it, to prevent this from derailing further. Kindly, be productive in this discussion, or leave. DarmaniLink (talk) 14:45, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The misconception I see in the Talk:Otoya Yamaguchi discussion is that DarmaniLink appears to be understanding "is not banned" as indicating that it "must be preserved". If you dislike killed himself, and the other editor dislikes committed suicide, then why can't the two of you pick a different (i.e., a third) word, instead of insisting that your version must be the one? Is the spirit of collegial editing so far gone, and our skill at copyediting and compromising so weak that we can only hit the Undo button and can't think of other words to use? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Because other proposed alternatives break the flow in the given context. In every instance i have seen them replace the "committed" language, it has sounded unnatural and out of place. Flow of encyclopedic prose matters above all, and shoehorning in an alternative, making an article worse, over someone's feelings is to be blunt, stupid. The onus is on them to make the edit fit the prose, and if they did a good job, nobody would even notice. But they don't, its why it gets reverted.

You, yourself have admitted people have taken this section out of context or interpreted what it said, and others have also said that they thought what's written is discouraged. This means it must change, because its current state is leading to drama. DarmaniLink (talk) 22:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

So you've only seen poor writers on wiki? I'm sorry to hear that. I've seen some quite good copyediting done.

Darmani, I have written a lot of policy over the years, including a good deal of our policy on writing policies and guidelines. There is almost nothing that I haven't seen quoted out of context or misinterpreted.

It is actually true that the committed language is discouraged. I want you to imagine that you are taking a reading comprehension test at school. Here is a page from the test:

Reading test: Please read this sentence and answer the two questions about it.

"The phrase committed suicide is not banned at the English Wikipedia, although many external style guides discourage it as being potentially stigmatising and offensive to some people."

• Question 1: Is the phrase committed suicide banned at the English Wikipedia? ☐ Yes  ☐ No
• Question 2: Who discourages the use of that phrase? ☐ External style guides  ☐ English Wikipedia

Do you think you could pass this test? I hope that most editors could. If you can pass this test with a perfect score, perhaps the main problem isn't the wording, but the behavioral response of editors who see this wording being removed from an article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:29, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Here's the problem - you are asking us to abide by the *letter* of the guidelines when the *spirit* of the guidelines discourages it. Other editors have voiced that it implies its discouraged, and others have stated that same interpretation. Rather than keep something ambiguous, we should change what is written to be unambiguous. Is it more worth it to quibble over semantics and have to pull up RFCs with someone misinterpreting a guideline than it is to clarify the guideline? DarmaniLink (talk) 02:46, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I am asking you to believe that I can write clearly and specifically, yes.

I wonder if you understand yet that the English Wikipedia does not encourage this wording. We don't ban it; we don't even officially discourage it – ourselves. But we do not encourage it, either. In all of the previous discussions, there has been very little support for making the committed language be preferred to options like "killed himself" (which you dislike, but which most editors approve of, and have used almost twice as often as the contested "died by" language). We want editors to be aware that external style guides pretty much universally do discourage it. We want editors to be aware of this so that they can make well-informed choices and also so that if they choose this language, they won't be blindsided if someone tries to change it on the grounds that these other style guides discourage it.

If an editor reads this guideline and takes away the message that "Wikipedia is neutral, and pretty much every external style guide is against it", and decides that this adds up to "I feel discouraged from using it", then that's IMO not actually a problem. If another editor does the same calculation and decides "Wikipedia's neutral, and I don't care what the rest of the world thinks, so I can do whatever I want (within the bounds of other policies, including consensus)", then that's fair, too. But the reasonable conclusions are kind of in the "neutral-to-discouraged" range of the spectrum, not in the "I'm going to win a prize for brilliant prose" part. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:44, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The problem is the ordering of phrases, has a psychological effect that de-facto leads the reader by a ring in the nose. We're looking to clarify, to remove that, and have editors not have it implied its inferior. If it was implied to be perfectly acceptable, alternatives would not be listed following it. This requires abiding by the letter of the document to get the message you claim you are trying to send. These are common word games, to suggest to ignore what something implies to look at the letter of something. If you were to say "X isn't banned here, but outside of here people people find X offensive. You can also to Y, Z, A, B,C." You are de facto telling someone not to do something, in the spirit of the rule. This requires WP:WL to get the truth of the statement, to avoid the manipulative BS written now. We abide by the spirit of a rule, not the letter.

This needs to change, and this is starting to feel WP:OWNy from you. DarmaniLink (talk) 03:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Here are the key facts:

1. Wikipedia editors did not ban it. (Mind the gap between "allowed" and "preferred".)
2. External style guides discourage it on grounds of offensiveness.

Do you think you can write a non-manipulative sentence that tells editors that this phrase is not banned by the community, that does not imply that this phrase is preferred by the community, that this phrase is discouraged by non-Wikipedia sources on grounds of offensiveness, and also does not leave editors feeling like if they use the language declared to be offensive by those external guidelines, nobody, not even the authors of those same guidelines, will think they have used potentially offensive language? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The problem is the ordering of phrases that de facto has a psychological effect on the reader. You are breaking down the *letter* of phrase, not the implied spirit of the phrase, and asking people to lawyer the phrase to get its true meaning. See WP:WL, we're supposed to *not* go strictly by the letter. DarmaniLink (talk) 00:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

That's twice now that you've said the problem is the ordering of the phrases. We can rearrange the order of the phrases, but I don't think that putting the fact about external guidelines first will make it less prominent.

• Current order: "The phrase committed suicide is not banned at the English Wikipedia, although many external style guides discourage it as being potentially stigmatising and offensive to some people."
• Opposite order: "The phrase committed suicide is discouraged by many external style guides as being potentially stigmatising and offensive to some people, although it is not banned at the English Wikipedia."

If you like this better, then I'm not going to object very strongly, but I suspect that you meant to complain about something other than the order of the phrases. (It's not Wikipedia:Wikilawyering [an essay] to say that editors should follow both what is written and intended by a guideline.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

That's not what i mean. It's the juxtaposition thats a problem.

Sometimes, its easier to see what I mean with an alternative example.

"Drinking while driving isn't banned in Liberland, but other nations discourage it as being dangerous. There are other safe, acceptable, and delicious drinks like: Soda, Water, Tea, Coffee"

Other can mean "additional" or it can explicitly exclude the previously mentioned item. Its ambiguous, and up to the reader to guess at the context.

The wording is de facto discouraging someone from doing it. DarmaniLink (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

"The wording is de facto discouraging someone from doing it." Yes, it is, unmistakably, and this doesn't seem to agree with a semi-recent RfC (even if I think that a new RfC with additional evidence is likely to run the other direction.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

"Do you think you could pass this test?" With just those available answers, I think the test is meaningless and basically a trap. The correct answers (to that specific proposed wording) would be "1. committed suicide is effectively banned at Wikipedia; and 2. effectively both, though Wikipedia is using weasely wording to imply otherwise." So, "asking us to abide by the *letter* of the guidelines when the *spirit* of the guidelines discourages it" is clearly correct in taht instance.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:25, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

This list is all very sensible, but if you put it in an essay, it'll be Wikipedia:Too long; didn't read, and people will only refer to it by a (probably misleading) WP:UPPERCASE instead of reading the words anyway. This might be the kind of thing that people have to learn for themselves, though experience. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

But Colin should put up the essay anyway, as it will be useful at more places than Talk:Marie Sophie Hingst. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Proposed change

We need to keep this conversation moving, and try to reach an outcome, because this has been a repeated issue. I'll propose this change to be voted on. If consensus agrees on an improvement, we can start a new vote with that, or just agree to substitute that in without the procedural beurocracy, whichever we decide. An alternative option would be to delete the problem section in its entirety, if its going to continue causing issues. It may not be worth to keep it, especially if its something as obvious as don't edit war, don't tendentiously change phrasings, take what terminology to use on a case by case basis.

Some editors have strong opinions about the appropriateness or inappropriateness of different phrasings over the ideal way to report a suicide, and the subject can stir strong feelings, both in general or for a specific article. The issue can be emotive, and changing existing phrasings risks controversy or dispute. No phrasing is unilaterally superior to any other across every article. Articles may use multiple phrasings as a natural matter of grammar. When writing a new article, editors can use the phrasing they are comfortable with. Some editors recommend using the specific phrasing that reports of a subject's death use. This should be balanced with the risk of close paraphrasing. Ultimately, this should be taken on a case by case basis and any changes should follow consensus. DarmaniLink (talk) 14:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Drop this please. You are/were in an uncivil dispute at Otoya Yamaguchi and I'm formally warning you what you are doing is Wikipedia:Gaming the system. While it did appear an editor misunderstood MOS:SUICIDE at Marie Sophie Hingst, this is not the case at the article you were arguing over. Such misunderstandings can be resolved through civil discussion, not stirring up battles we are all sick to death of at VP. -- Colin°^Talk 14:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not attempting to change this to win a discussion, I am attempting to change this because multiple people have misinterpreted the section, and another editor has agreed with me that this is psychologically manipulative. I was not aware this was even a point of contention until just yesterday, and I am brand new to this entire discussion. Other editors have taken issue with this, and you have your own tonal/civility issues as well. We, are currently attempting to move forward with a new change, that we can agree upon. If you do not want to move forward with a change because you are sick of discussion with someone who is new to this entire issue, the door is there. DarmaniLink (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Go make articles. Come back when you've spent some time in the trenches. You've spent less time actually contributing to articles than you have talking about articles. Go fix that. GMG^talk 15:10, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• There's a germ of a good idea in that, but the material is a bit too tumid, and it erases too much of the original guideline material.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  It could be generalized to Wikipedia:Believe editors, with the general point being "When someone tells you that they find ____ offensive, stigmatizing, unclear, or whatever, you should believe them. When you tell them that you aren't offended by it, they should believe you. But as Garner's Modern English Usage says, 'If plain talk is going to provoke unnecessary controversy—if talk about illegitimate children or sodomy will divert attention from your point by offending people—', then when you learn that someone's unnecessarily offended or confused by the way you wrote something, you might want to consider re-writing it to avoid this distraction. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Here's the thing - This isn't offending anyone other than language change activists who got told it was offensive by activist groups. whitelist is still called that, blacklist is still called that. Master/slave (technology) is still called that, despite activist orgs telling us its offensive nomenclature. Alternatives were proposed that people did not like as a general replacement, and this whole fad was dropped. These are false equivalencies as well, as has been previously pointed out, nobody who killed themselves is going to object to this terminology, and people survived by people who committed suicide generally prefer euphemisms for death as a whole, which we do not use.

  If someone finds a word offensive, they must first state their basis for finding it offensive. If it is grounded in reason, for example, Shina (word) was deemed to be offensive due to it being used by Japanese occupiers in China, and gaining that reputation. The general public accepts that as a legitimate reason.

  In this instance, people claim the connotation behind "commit" is offensive. They explained their reasoning, and their reasoning has been rejected. If we don't want to offend anyone, we better remove all paintings which depict Muhamed while we're it at it. Better ensure the wikipedia page for any racial pejorative is only written by people of that group, as to not offend activists. DarmaniLink (talk) 15:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  their reasoning has been rejected - The reasoning didn't convince enough people that it should be banned. That's not the same as a rejection of the reasoning. Your dismissal of the perspective of so many of the people and organizations who actually work with issues like self-harm and suicide as language change activists (which is a rather culture-warsy way of saying "people trying to consider the implications of language we otherwise take for granted") is not persuasive in terms of wikipolicy. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Do you *really* want to go through an entire RFC just to decide if the usage of the term "commit" is offensive, when multiple people in the previous in the last RFC said that it outright said it has no criminal connotation? This implies it isn't offensive, per the argument of the "advocacy groups".

  This is exactly the same stuff we heard during the whole "whitelist/blacklist" debacle where the line of thought was basically "Whitelist is things allowed, blacklist is things blocked, this must mean they want to allow white people, and block black people!", and aside from a few activist groups desperate for donations, had everyone simultaneously roll their eyes so hard they were looking inside their skulls.

  "Culture warsy", i'm registered to no political party and have not voted once. I'm a programmer.

  "If "commit" has criminal connotations, then it is offensive in the phrase 'commit suicide'"

  For an Antecedent (logic), to prove a Consequent (i.e., prove it is true), the antecedent must be true. What does this mean? If you are asserting P to demonstrate, and the truth of Q is unknown, you must prove P to prove Q. Similarly, if you establish P is false, then you can prove that Q is false. Unless, and until you establish P, we cannot assert Q. However, if you can prove the negation of P, you can prove the negation of Q. However, the problem here isn't that we need to say Q is false, because we are not arguing Q, and arguing Q is extremely generous towards those groups. We do not even need to argue Q at all, as the onus is on the asserter to demonstrate P, which they have failed to do. All it does, is decisively show that P was never true to begin with. Or in other words, the onus is now on you, with the counterexample now in effect, to demonstrate the counterexample is false, in other words, you must show the opposite to be true.

  I frankly do not care about what these activists feelings are, because they have no basis in logic, which can be demonstrably proven false in this instance. DarmaniLink (talk) 23:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  The problem, and why I've changed my stance on this since yesterday, is that mainstream style guides like Garner's Modern English, that don't have an agenda to push [that anyone can demonstrate – I can't claim to read minds], are now slowly coming to agreeing that the term can be seen as offensive. Even if a case can be made (and I've made it myself) that the commit in commit suicide is like unto the commit in commit to an irreversible course of action (which rather accurately describes a "successful" sucide attempt), not the commit in commit a crime or sin, there is clearly room for confusion and reader assumption of offensiveness, especially as various religions and legal system have actually defined suicide as sins and crimes. I don't really see a way around this. MoS is not written in a vacuum, but based on academic style guides like Garner's and on evidence of usage change across the English-writing world, and we have more of that every day. (That this change is spurred in large part by activistic sources MoS doesn't directly rely on is largely irrelevant or, e.g., MOS:GENDERID would not say much of anything that it says now. Regardless of the original impetus of the change, once the change has actually taken root, MoS is not in a position to ignore it – if it's something that applies to encyclopedic writing, anyway.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:01, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  This sounds very similar to the "whitelist/blacklist" debacle where for 2020 some guides came out and said "use allowlist/denylist". Some major companies changed, my company didn't, except for changing "slave" to "worker" in jenkins.

  This seems more like the kind of thing that applies to the people who get secondhand offended over everything, who if they had their way, we would be speaking Toki Pona. When everything becomes offensive, its impossible to tell when they're being genuine or just looking for donations. DarmaniLink (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  As my "LOL" post below surely indicates, I agree with your general take on this. But as said already, when MoS's own main source material starts changing on this, then we have to more seriously consider doing it as well. Not because the advocates were "right" but because whether they were right or not the usage is nevertheless demonstrably shifting. The flip side of "MoS is not here to push language-activism agendas" is "MoS does not exist as an ultra-preservative platform for language-shift resistance". We should be writing in the same general "tone" or "sensitivity" as the majority of other major publishers (not just newspapers, which are "offense"-shy and kowtow quickly to activistic busy-bodying, but across recent academic and other material). Whether the shift in question has actually reached that point is really the central question, Garner's aside, and is going to be a matter of a lot of aggregate-usage research (which I'm not willing to do; someone who wants to RfC this again can do the homework).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  LOL. A 'Wikipedia:Believe editors, with the general point being "When someone tells you that they find ____ offensive, stigmatizing, unclear, or whatever, you should believe them' would be a disaster. We already have an epidemic of extremist activists, on virtually every subject one can be activistic about, claiming they find offense, stigma, etc., in every other thing that people say or write, and they only ever make such claims to push a PoV in content and to demonize debate opponents and cast aspersions at them with guilt-by-association techniques with loaded -ist and -phobe and similar accusations (sadly, almost always targeted at editors who 95% agree with them, but just don't tow the exact same doctrinaire line the complainant does). When the victim of this battlegrounding behavior counter-complains that this hostile ad-hominem bullshit is what is offensive and stigmatizing, they are met with denialism, and sometimes WP:GANG behavior along polarized, politicized, "you will think exactly as I do or you are the enemy" lines. This has a great deal to do with why a lot of socio-polito-cultural topics are covered by WP:CTOP and are awful morasses of super-shitty behavior on all sides; many of the issue-pushing activists escalate the hostilities on purpose. The problem is that "the distraction", as you put it, which can be boiled down to claiming offense, assuming (often doubling down on and insisting) bad faith, and using it as an excuse to engage in holy-war behavior, is something that too many of the activists pursue actively, because (even if they are somewhat here to build an encyclopedia, sometimes), they are too often here for GREATWRONGS and SOAPBOX and FORUM and ADVOCACY reasons, and they good-faith believe (as all activists do, pretty much by definition) that they do what they are doing for the betterment of the world. (I mostly come into direct conflict with such users who are language-reform advocates of some sort or another, because I spend a lot of time in MoS circles, but I randomly run across and observe the same behavior across a wide range of topics, some of which I run away from quickly because of the awful, factional, and manipulative victim-card-playing behavior at them.)

  To put it another way, "believing" that someone finds something offensive or whatever does not impose an obligation to do anything about it. There is virtually nothing that one can write or say that will not potentially offend someone, somewhere, for some reason beyond the writer's control or even understanding. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, perhaps (per AGF) even to belief that they are serious, but they own their own emotions, and neither their opinion nor emotions auto-generate a new responsibility on someone else's part. The best outcome in such situations is calm exploration of why someone found something offensive (or whatever), which might change someone's mind and how they choose to write in the future, but this calm approach is rarely found on WP; instead, the response behavior is more often aggressive, agenda-pushing, and politicized name-calling, with a big dollop of cancel-culture demonizing on top. As I said over at WT:MOSBIO, this kind of "it offended me so it was a wrong" thinking is closely tied to the notion that "harm" or "violence" or "attacks" are entirely defined by the perceptions of the alleged "victim". This is a useful idea in some narrow and entirely individual contexts, like psychotherapy ("any trauma is trauma", "your feelings are valid", "your experience is true for you", etc.), but it has no connection to objective social operation: the rules of an organization, the laws of a country, the norms of an online community cannot account for idiolect definitions of things like "harm" or "offensive", and people cannot be punished for allegedly transgressing some random other person's invisible and unpredicatble line in the sand; instead we have more objectively defined behavioral boundaries in laws, policies, etc.

  To get back to the central topic, MoS possibly needs to change on this suicide-language usage matter because usage itself is observably shifting in the overall real world; not because some offsite issue-evangelism organization advocates for it, and not because some minority of editors or readers personally feel a certain way about it. We could not have WP:NOTCENSORED, MOS:DOCTCAPS, or a zillion other policies and guidelines if such influences were even vaguely determinative of how WP operates.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC); rev'd. 04:31, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  I am absolutely loving this. That the styleguide SMcCandlish kept banging on about actually says in its current edition:

  D. Commit suicide vs. die by suicide. Since about 2000, style manuals have come to avoid commit suicide, which is now considered insensitive because of its whiff of criminality. The trend is to prefer die by suicide, kill onself, or take one's own life.

  I particularly love the "Since about 2000". So much so, I'm going to say it again. "Since about 2000". SMcCandlish, I know you are one of the biggest exponents of the fallacy that Wikipedia does not lead, when it comes to language, but being 23 years late to the party is a tad embarrassing.

  SMcCandlish, the above TLDR post of yours amply emphasises that your comments about what "Wikipedia" respects and what "MOS" does are hugely filtered by it actually being about what SMcCandlish respects and what SMcCandlish believes should be so. You are the most voluminous contributor to such discussions and by far the most opinionated, to the point of writing essays and, cough, Signpost articles that are best forgotten. Some humility please. Wikipedia is not written with MOS open in another tab or second monitor, consulting it before writing and after writing each and every paragraph. The English that Wikipedia is written in will naturally reflect current usage by editors, coming up with their own words to summarise what they read in sources, or what they already know in their heads, that is verified by the sources they cite.

  I'm also enjoying the contortions wrt association of "commit" with criminality. Yes I know some (you yourself above) kept claiming that all those people who were offended due to "commit suicide" being associated with criminality were just plain reading it wrong and the they should sort themselves out. But as most of us already know, and The Guardian article I linked earlier points out, Suicide really was a criminal offense and still is in 17 countries. The article Suicide legislation goes into the technical details of what the law actually said and what was actual practice. The association with criminality (and crime against God, or sinfulness, as with committing adultery) is not imaginary and was never ever a result of people just reading it wrongly. At least now your favourite style guide admits such.

  WhatamIdoing's mythical Wikipedia:Believe editors essay is believing them when some editors find something offensive and believing them when other editors don't. But the same could be made for what editors feel is important wrt the values that influence their writing style and word choices and what they want Wikipedia to contain. Some editors believe Wikipedia should be very conservative and only respect longstanding style guides in dusty hardbacks. Other editors believe Wikipedia should reflect contemporary values and beliefs and writing style. They believe that being a wiki (== quick) and being eternally updated, it is not great problem that in 2010, say, we reflected 2010's style, and in 2023, we reflect 2023's style. These two editor groups provide the tension we keep seeing and will keep seeing. These two editor groups exist and writing as though one group doesn't exist or should be quickly dismissed is unhelpful.

  I'm going to say it one more time. "Since about 2000" :-) -- Colin°^Talk 11:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  One more thing. The above quote refers to these "style manuals" that have "since about 2000" "come to avoid commit suicide". It does not do dismissively. There is no abusive mocking comment about them being written by woke social justice warriors, no rejection of them being merely activist literature or no value. Instead, they are regarded as playing a role in documenting the "trend" about how one should write about suicide. This idea that the opinions, say, of Samaritans should be dismissed as activists, rather than experts who might know a thing or two, more so than some random Wikipedian, is uncalled for. -- Colin°^Talk 12:21, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  There's nothing faintly "embarassing" about external style guide writers doing the research to demonstrate a shift in usage and changing their advice to accomodate it, then MoS regulars coming to agree to support changing MoS to move in the same direction. That is how the entire MoS process works and always has worked. But thanks (not) for vindictively individually personalizing a style dispute, taking a battlegrounding-against-"enemies" stance, and going after people who've actually come to your side of an issue. Very appropriate and effective. [sigh] This kind of "stab my neighbor in the back for not sharing 100% of my doctrinal positions" behavior is why the left is always tearing itself apart and has much to do with enabling the rise of the far-right. This is a point I raise dozens of times a week on various platforms, but it rarely seems to sink in with anyone, probably because it's easier and more fun to get into "someone is wrong on the Internet" fights than to examine and adjust one's own behavior and accept that one has an opinion instead of a Truth.

  Moving on, I never once suggested that people edit with MoS open in another tab, and I've frequently written, for over a decade now (including in essays you seem to categorically deride, or maybe you just mean ones I had something to do with), that no one has to read MoS before editing here; what they do have to do (with regard to all our WP:P&G material) is not editwar against other editors who later bring the material into compliance with the P&G material, and not intentionally edit our material to be in defiance of our P&G. "Suicide really was a criminal offense": I made that point myself. That doesn't change the fact that "commit" has multiple meanings, it just means that some people favor one over the other. Now that a style guide MoS is actually based on sides with a particular interpretation, MoS has [at least the start of] a reason to side with a particular intpretation, instead of people trying to force it to side with one on the basis of language-reform advocacy. This really is not difficult to follow.

  Some editors believe Wikipedia should be very conservative and only respect longstanding style guides in dusty hardbacks. Other editors believe Wikipedia should reflect contemporary values and beliefs and writing style. That's blatantly mischaracterizing with regard to those you don't agree with (both in pinning a politically loaded label to them that subtly implies various -ist and -phobe leanings, and suggesting they are paper-bound luddites) and it also presupposes that "contemporary" is synonymous with "progressive advocacy based", and you're defying your own "writing as though one group doesn't exist or should be quickly dismissed is unhelpful" advice. But anyway, the actual operative reality is and always has been between these two extremes. MoS is based almost entirely on about 5 leading academic-leaning style guides (namely Chicago, Garner's, Oxford/Hart's, Fowler's, and for more technical matters Scientific Style and Format), which mostly if not all by now also exist in electronic editions, though they are not free. When these editorially move too slowly for us, we arrive at our own internal style guide changes by surveying usage across English-language writing in quality sources (not just journalism), as best as we're able to do it. What it doesn't mean is cherry-picking strident advocacy pieces and doing what they say just because they're loud and emphatic and most of us align with their socio-politico-cultural stance. There's a massive difference between how (and and under whose influence) you personally write for your circle and intended narrow audience on Facebook or a blog, and how WP collectively produces material for the broadest audience in human history. The latter is not the stage on which to strike socio-political poses.

  Finally, I never said anything about "woke social justice warriors"; your recurrent theme of going in this political labeling direction comes across as using WP:FALSECIV and WP:CIVILPOV techniques to demonize anyone (in a possibly WP:SANCTIONGAMEable way) who disagrees with you at all, as a right-winger bogeyman. I am a woke social-justice warrior (though not an ultra-leftist one, which gets me periodically attacked by ultra-leftists because I don't hew to the exact same doctrinal language and positions they do, especially when it comes to language-change movements; not being a member of a particular language-policing extremist contingent doesn't make me or anyone else right-of-center. But it's okay to be right-of-center on WP anyway; this is not ProgressivismPedia.) I'm also able to separate my activism – I was a professional activist for decades – from my editing, and I generally don't edit in various topic areas where my activistic urges are difficult to suppress. Activism on this platform is an anti-WP:NPOV cancer, even when you agree with the position being advocated. Many activists have difficulty internalizing this, because they uniformly believe that advocating their stance is bettering the world; that's pretty much what activism is. But these editors still badly need to compartmentalize more and come to better understand their own issue-specific involvement/emotion/temperament limitations.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  Let me first address the concerns you posted on my talk page, that my post may give the impression that you are a politically conservative in a battle with "woke social justice warriors" and that I've brought that political and culture-war battle into a discussion on language usage/advice. Let me be clear that when I wrote "woke social justice warriors" I was randomly picking an activist group, and activists of whatever flavour are, in your opinion (as I understand it), instantly dismissible wrt language concerns on the basis that they are activists, and not, say, because they believe certain things about how we might treat others or get along with each other or fund healthcare or control borders or whatever. If I were to guess your politics, I wouldn't be far off what you wrote above, and certainly not right-of-centre or anti-woke or whatever.

  For example, on this very page:

  • "the editor is pushing a piece of activism literature published by a group of "reformers" along with some journalism style guides that (through the activities of the aformentioned "sensistivity readers", a pool of people with deep ties to the activism bodies) closely reflect the wants of the activism bodies."
  • "The changes that have been made here were not because of GLAAD's or any other activism source's advocacy wording in their own style guides
  • "What's really interesting here is that the style guides that do (pretty uniformly against) address "committed suicide" are either a) explicitly being activistic about it, or b) are journalism style guides"
  • "this change is spurred in large part by activistic sources MoS doesn't directly rely on"
  • "MoS is not here to push language-activism agendas"
  • "newspapers, which are "offense"-shy and kowtow quickly to activistic busy-bodying"
  • "We already have an epidemic of extremist activists, on virtually every subject one can be activistic about, claiming they find offense, stigma, etc"
  • "many of the issue-pushing activists escalate the hostilities on purpose"
  • "which is language borrowed directly from far-left-activism rhetoric"

  Throughout this page, we have several lengthy lectures where we are left in no doubt about your dim view of editors seeking social language changes on Wikipedia while citing what you call activist sources.

  Nearly all of MOS concerns the aspects of "style" that are unconcerned with social matters. In these areas, you may well be right that Wikipedia is aligned with a core set of well known guides. Advising editors to avoid contractions (like "don't") is quite a different thing from advising editors how to sensitively write about suicide, or describe people with epilepsy or who are deaf, or whether we should deadname actors in the lead sentence. I don't think there is any good reason or five-pillar reason or policy reason why Wikipedia must restrict its sources of advice on such matters to books published by a university press in hardback (yes, I know many textbooks are online, paywalled often). I also don't think anyone would disagree with me that you are by quite some way the most voluminous and persistent voice dismissing sources of information on the grounds that the authors are surely activists. This very page, and the nine quotes above are evidence of that and are not atypical. SMcCandlish, that your voice is heard loudly and often influential does not mean you speak for Wikipedia. But you often write like you do. I don't think that is helpful when we are discussing policy changes. It gives a false impression that anyone with a different view is somehow not Wikipedia, and never can be, and can therefore be dismissed for not being Wikipedia. -- Colin°^Talk 09:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  I'll go back to writing relatively short, since everyone probably finds this tiresome. Quoting me making the point, in various wording, that WP isn't a platform for advocacy (even when we may agree with the PoV) doesn't refute that point. A fairly trivial style matter like contractions being qualitatively different in seriousness from some others doesn't mean that our sourcing. consensus, and other methodology magically changes (and MoS addresses many matters that are of "sensitivity"; much of the entire MOS:WTW page is about such). Stridency of desire to make a change doesn't mean the change is more deserving; it's usually a reason to suspect PoV-pushing. Observation of real-world usage shifts and the consistent advice of sources that don't have a social-political language reformation PoV to advance are what indicate we should change our own style guidance – and they do, just not as quickly as you and some other editors might like. Me having the gumption to speak up about all this, in a sphere wallowing in cancel-culture behavior, and to not back down when people seem to want to paint me as right-wing (not just seemingly in here on this one topic, but everywhere I dare to resist language-reformers), doesn't make me wrong. If people repeatedly play "I can't hear you" games and keep dodging the substance of the concern, that tends to cause the ignored to restate their concern until it is addressed. When you post a screed the bulk of which is repeated mockery of another editor it is apt to make the accused post a defense. PS: If I'm "influential" here it's for the reason of making arguments that other editors find compelling (more often than they think I'm full of crap), but I never pose as being somehow special here; when people try to make me out to be, I disabuse them of the notion (e.g. here). I've just been here a long time is all.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:03, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  When the RFC was held on this (not too long ago), the current state of the style guides were reviewed, and only a few had shifted; the primary driver of change was coming from medical / mental health studies that established that "committed suicide" could be problematic language. As such, there was not a clear need from following style guides to make the change. Maybe a style guide or two implemented a change in 2000, but at the time of the RFC, it was not the case that all style guides had stated the need to avoid "committed suicide". So I don't think this is an accurate assessment of the style guide issue. Masem (t) 12:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  I don't see that in the RFC. I see a thorough mocking dismissal, usually by SMcCandlish, any time someone mentioned a style guide that discouraged "commit suicide". And as we see above, SMcCandlish was using a guide from 2016 that itself admits to only documenting a recommendation that's been clear from "about 2000". The idea that a wiki should be solely constrained by dead-wood guides that only get updated every seven years, and when they do, admit to being 23 years late, is for the birds. -- Colin°^Talk 12:32, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  @SMcCandlish, in what way would "When someone tells you that they find ____ offensive, stigmatizing, unclear, or whatever, you should believe them' be a disaster? If you tell me that you find bad grammar to be offensive and unclear, should I say, "No, you don't – I know you're lying, and you think bad grammar is wonderful"? Or would you appreciate it if I believed that you find bad grammar offensive and unclear? Mind the gap between "you find something offensive" and "it is universally considered offensive". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think what I've already written clearly addresses this already, but I'll drill down a little: The tone/stance of this "you should believe them" instruction for lack of a better term strongly implies that you should accept their reasoning as valid and change your wording/behavior in response, when in any given actual case the reasoning may be absent or badly faulty or just too idiosyncratic to be meaningful to anyone else. Of course you should "believe" them in the much more general sense of assuming that they are not blatantly lying to try to score a point, but we all know this is not the intended meaning of the "you should believe them" stuff (which is language borrowed directly from far-left-activism rhetoric I bet everyone here has already encountered many times, that comes from the world of pushing language-usage and thought changes from an "offense is only defined by the reader/listener" perspective; I've already addressed this above, too). The obvious and entire purpose of this draft instruction is to induce change in wording/behavior in response to complaints; it is not to induce more belief that people are not blatantly lying, since there is no evidence that editors are interpreting other editors as blatantly lying when they make such "offended" arguments. The gap you say to mind is entirely the point I'm trying to make, and it is a gap that the "you should believe them" idea tries to make invisible. PS: I didn't say anything about "bad grammar" much less finding offense or inclarity in it. Using or not using "committed suicide" isn't a grammar matter at all.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  So... I wrote that comment above, and now you are telling me what my stance is?

  Is there any chance that you could believe me, when I say that I just want to stop editors from having this kind of exchange?

  • A: I feel offended by this.
  • B: No, you don't. I've rationally analyzed it, and it's not offensive; therefore, nobody's offended by it.

  Or this kind, which I had just a couple weeks ago at a different village pump?

  • A: That doesn't help anyone edit articles.
  • Me: I found that it made it easier to edit this specific article.
  • B: No, it doesn't make it easier to edit articles.

  I realize you can't unilaterally solve all communication problems, but do you think the two of us could agree that I am the expert on my stance, and you are the expert on your stance, and not the other way around? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:05, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  On the subject: I don't mind you saying something like "If we write 'If an editor says they're offended, you should believe them', then some troll is going to claim that it means 'If an editor says they're offended, everyone is morally required to believe something the editor never actually said, and it is especially incumbent on you to twist a simple, personal statement that 'I'm personally offended' into a claim that the editor has conclusively proven that every single human on the planet is extremely upset with you and that if you are not equally offended, then you are a horrible, shameful excuse for a human'."

  Because, you know, everything gets quoted out of context eventually, and the amount of stupid on the internet is vast and deep. It might even be pointless to hope that an explicit sentence 'If an editor says they're offended by this, you should believe that they actually are offended by this, and the way you show that you believe that is that you don't say stupid things like 'nobody is offended by this'" could address the problem. But I would still like it if experienced editors stopped telling me that my own view is the opposite of what I've just told them my view is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  Of course I believe you on what your stance is. But this looks like a solution in search of problem, and there is great danger in its weaponization and other unintended consequences, especially in abetting the clever attacking of progressives by other progressives when there's a doctrine fork. I'll respond more fully in user talk rather than post long again in VPPOL. My concerns have more to do with aggregatate behavior of our left-leaning userbase under the influence of farthest-left agitators and their go-to smear tactics, than anything to do with trolling in the usual sense or just "I can't hear you" behavior outside of culture-wars topics.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Alternative proposed change

I would suggest instead something like the following (which borrows a little from the long-winded proposal above, keeps some of the original guideline language, and aims to address every problem raised in this discussion, including the psychologically manipulative wording and the thumping of external style guides):

Some editors have strong opinions about the appropriateness of particular terms. For example, some object to committed suicide while the community largely accepts it;^{[extisting footnote here]} others object to the verbal usage suicided. Changing existing phrasing in an article without first establishing a consensus to do so risks editorial conflict, but articles may use multiple phrasings as a natural matter of writing non-repetitively, and there are other appropriate, common, and encyclopedic ways to describe a suicide, including: [existing list here]

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose all of these changes (not sure where to put this -- too many subsections now). The current language does not conflict with the RfC. There are a great many specific phrases for which there are many reasons not to use them, but which the English Wikipedia wouldn't say should be "banned". That doesn't mean there's consensus that it's preferable language, or that other terms aren't preferable. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:04, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  Rather that just saying "no", it would be more productive to make revision suggestions.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:15, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  Don't see any reason for a change. If someone wants to run the RfC again, go for it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support the nominator and SMcCandlish, but I don't see a version yet I can get behind. Maybe the one with a list of suggested phrases. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 23:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Cuñado: This one has the list of suggested phrases that is already in the extant guideline; that's what "[existing list here]" refers to.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:50, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• I would oppose any endorsement of "suicided", or any such construction using the "cide" Latin derivatives. Somthing like "died by suicide" is fine. Something like "suicided" is just gramatically wrong. GMG^talk 00:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Ok, I can agree with no "suicided". I'll support not listing this as an example DarmaniLink (talk) 02:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose as I already noted above, MOS is neither a behavioural guideline nor is it the closing comments of an RFC, which the above proposal is an attempt to achieve (and badly, tbh, as it really doesn't represent "the community"). It does the same "trick" as seen so often in language discussions, of offering a terrible and rarely suggested option ("suicided") as though that's the only alternative and no, the community does not "largely accept" "committed". That suggests the community were asked if "committed suicide" must be retained once written into an article, which isn't the question of any RFC. The community did not agree to ban it, and that extreme proposal is all that got rejected. Interpreting any more than that is dishonest. -- Colin°^Talk 07:52, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Part of this rationale is non-operative. MoS in many places warns editors of types of changes that may be controversial and urges caution. That doesn't magically make it masquerading as a behavior guideline. See also WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY. It is perfectly fine for a style guideline to do this, or (for that matter) for a behaviorial guide to mention something about style (which some of them do, specifically about style of editor interaction). And content policies and guidelines do the same thing, about style of writing in a broad sense of "style".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:53, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Self-oppose: Despite having argued against an oppose above for a questionable rationale, I'm now going to oppose my own proposal. I think the fact (reported above) that Garner's Modern English, one of the style guides MoS actually is based on, in its brand new edition has shifted to recommend against "committed suicide" is good evidence that MoS's own guidance on this should be revisted more substantively. I.e., I think the old RfC's consensus is now questionable. Given the years I've spent tracking advice changes in style guides, I predict it is likely that other style guides MoS is actually based on will do likewise in their next editions (especially Chicago Manual of Style, the usage material of which is also edited by Bryan Garner). I also expect Scientific Style and Format to do likewise, because (on med/psych terms) it is heavily dependent on the recommendations promulgated by professional med/psych organizations, and we already know they are on the side of this change. I feel a bit less certain in predicting Oxford/Hart's and Fowler's changes, becuse of outright editorial chaos at these Oxford University Press publications over the last 15 years or so. NB: The Garner's change was made because of evidence of broad usage shift, not because the author and editors have a language-change advocacy point to push – it is actually a fairly preservative/traditionalist volume. If the shift is broad enough to convince Garner, it is likely broad enough to convince Wikipedia, if someone knows how to put the evidence together well.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:25, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  So long as you correctly understand the RFC outcome as "not banned" rather than "every existing use of this phrase must be preserved, and every person who changes it must be accused of malign intent and/or political motivations", then I don't think this really brings the outcome of the RFC into question. It's still "not banned". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Note I think it worth pointing out that this whole discussion is predicated on the false claim that the current MOS:SUICIDE is/has been used "to enforce a de facto ban on the phrase" (committed suicide). The article that proposer was disputing, Otoya Yamaguchi, was reverted back to "committed suicide" before this debate was opened. The other article that was linked, Marie Sophie Hingst, has an ongoing discussion on its talk page, and was reverted back to "committed suicide" last night. That discussion, now between Vaticidalprophet and WhatamIdoing, involves two editors so experienced that they don't rely on P&G pages nor use them as UPPERCASE weapons, but merely refer to them at times as part of their argument. I'm pretty confident the pair can come up with a solution or agree-to-disagree without need of any MOS change. In other words, Wikipedia is functioning as one might expect. This isn't something broken that needs fixed today. -- Colin°^Talk 09:13, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That's why this post has been up for days. So it can be fixed, eventually. This discussion isn't for them, its for future new editors not to be confused. DarmaniLink (talk) 09:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the problem, DarmaniLink, is that your definition of "to be confused" is "doesn't fully agree with me". When Otoya Yamaguchi was changed to "killed himself" (two months ago), the edit summary was "ce". After another editor reverted that, with summary "I don't understand this campaign against the word suicide", it was changed back again with summary "Nobody has even campaigned against the word 'suicide', the issue is the word 'committed', which is both inaccurate (suicide is no longer a crime, and is therefor not 'committed') and stigmatising. See Suicide terminology. We can rephrase to 'died by suicide' or something similar if you prefer. Careful readers may note that up until this point MOS:SUICIDE was not referred to, in fact the editor cited Wikipedia's article itself as proof that the term "committed suicide" is problematic. Editors have been disputing this phrase for years, long before MOS:SUICIDE was written. All MOS:SUICIDE does is give editors some facts and ideas with which to debate with other editors about how to write the article text. It is entirely up to those editors to do so intelligently and respectfully. Behavioural issues are not the principle concern of MOS.

Btw, you may be interested in This recent article in The Guardian. It opens with "In at least 17 countries, suicide remains a criminal offence – a ‘huge barrier’ to mental health care." If you press Ctrl-F and type "commit" into the search box of your browser, you will find the only time "committed" is used is when describing countries that are committing to decriminalising suicide. Attitudes towards suicide are an ongoing battleground in the real world. It is therefore no surprise at all that it is a battleground on Wikipedia. The best we can do is describe the facts about terminology, and let editors work it out for themselves. -- Colin°^Talk 10:01, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

This is a personal attack, so I'm not even going to entertain this with a response. DarmaniLink (talk) 10:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

No, it's not. See WP:NPA and the definitions there.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the problem... is that your definition of "to be confused" is "doesn't fully agree with me"

If he wants a response, he can start off civilly. DarmaniLink (talk) 23:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Observing what seem to be logic problems and bad debate habits in someone's post is not a personal attack. Again, actually read WP:NPA. "I didn't like that comment" and "I was attacked" are not synonymous.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

No, this is fundamentally an incivil way for colin to continue a discussion.

They're free to find it offensive - on their own. As I have said before, external guides should not be a factor on wikipedia, in any instance. People may make proposals from external guides unto wikipedia, but the argument should never be *because* an external guide, that has not already been accepted via consensus on wikipedia. DarmaniLink (talk) 00:17, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

For the third time: actually read WP:NPA. It is not the same policy as WP:CIVIL and covers different things. [sigh]  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:58, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

This is splitting hairs but I meant "personal attack" more in the colloquial sense than the wikipedia-policy sense DarmaniLink (talk) 02:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, pretty much zero other editors are ever going to interpret a reference to something we have a policy-page about as being instead a reference to some other meaning. And in particular, accusing other editors of making personal attack when what they said is not within the scope of WP:NPA is itself considered hypocritical incivility.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I use the term "personal attack" like "adhom", which it is. I understand there's different jargon here but you have to understand, not everyone has been here for 15+ years and have become well versed in all the terminology and minutia that's used, and the implications certain phrases may have to that minutia. I'm very much an outsider to this community, and only contributed to a small number of articles DarmaniLink (talk) 02:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, if you continue to use the phrase that vague way, no one but you is going to intepret it that way, and you will be interpreted in turn as engaging in a form of incivility yourself. And ad hominem isn't synonymous, either; it's a very specific fallacy, of injecting irrelevant claims about the maker of an argument to try to distract from the argument they are making.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to, now that I know, I'm just trying to explain *why* I used that term. It opens with an incivil strawman, and an attack on character/what I (am assumed by him) to think. I'm not giving someone who speaks like that the time of day. DarmaniLink (talk) 04:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I understand the emotional response (don't we all)? I'm saying how to get your message across better here, without confusing people into thinking it's you that's the problem. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I appreciate it and I'm still trying to learn the ins and outs of the different moving parts in how interactions on this site work, didn't know "personal attack" would be interpreted as WP:NPA or even that the page existed until you told me. Thanks. DarmaniLink (talk) 05:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Opinions on a potential future RFC extending the portions of MOS:GENDERID related to a subject's name to all people who have changed their name

This was discussed in the latest GENDERID RFC (and possibly the previous one, I forget), but very briefly and I don't think it got fleshed out enough. I think this is a good idea – we should be extending the same courtesy we are to trans people to other people who have changed their name. It may need more fleshing out – cases like Kanye West are probably not ideal to fit under this – but some level of workshopping to make a proposal that tries to give as much courtesy as is reasonable to these people would be a good idea, in my opinion. A pure version just by cutting out parts of MOS:GENDERID would result in something along the lines of:

Refer to people by the name that reflects the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise.

I'm not sure where to go now, either on improving the proposal or taking it from here – this is well out of my element. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 09:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Holy crap. The Signpost needs to add a separate section, parallel to "In the media" and "Recent research", etc., so we can keep track of the multitude of GENDERID RFCs and other discussions every week. And I'd like a function to reverse-subscribe to any page or section that wants to roto-till further into the subject. And sure, I'd be glad to tell you where to go. I have grown so weary of the topic.

The obvious place to go (seriously) is the talk page behind MOS:GENDERID, where, by my count, only four of the sixteen sections do not focus on GENDERID. You could throw another section on the pile (with a pointer from here to there), and see what you get. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 11:34, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Isn't that how we got the current mess though? A bunch of activists make a local consensus there, and when it comes here they run into differing views and we wind up with no consensus. I'd expect the same thing to happen: the activists would be all for the straw proposal written above, then it comes here and enough people would find it ridiculous and we'd get no consensus. But a proposal there that would step back from the current extremist wording would likely be shot down by the activists. I note none of his is particularly new or specific to this topic, over the years there have been many similar situations where "MOS warriors" have conflicted with the wider community. Anomie⚔ 12:56, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I would not characterise the current state of GENDERID as a local consensus made up by "a bunch of activists". Many of the discussions and RfCs on the scope and current phrasing of the guideline were held here, or otherwise notified through WP:CENT. The current phrasing of the guideline with respect to living people seems to be fairly representative of the whole enwiki community. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Sure. So many RFCs, over and over and full of badgering, until they got the result they wanted by wearing out everyone else. Any gain is vehemently defended. Anomie⚔ 11:42, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Rather than starting with the wording, I think it's better to start with the objectives.

Any wording that doesn't account for all the following principles is guaranteed not to get consensus:

• Articles about notable people should include all names under which they were notable, absent exceptional circumstances
• Names that are not verifiable in reliable sources must never be included
• A name that a person was not notable under, and has no relevance to their notability, and which they have expressed a desire not be used should not be included.
  • A name that someone was not notable when they were using can sometimes be relevant to their notability (e.g. criminal aliases)
• A trans person's deadname under which they were not notable should be treated as private information (and thus not included) unless they have made a clear statement to the contrary.
• There is no single, objective definition of what a person's "real name" is that applies to everybody.
• People use different names than their birth name for many different reasons, and consequently people's attitude towards their birth (or other previous) name also varies.

I would hope the following could be included in the above set, but there are sufficient people who seem to think differently to me that I don't know what community consensus is.

• Former names of notable people, used only before they were notable, are not automatically notable and are not required to be included.

If we agree on all the above, and that guidance on when to include or exclude a former name is desirable, then we should start with examining what names we want to include and what names we want to exclude and importantly why. Thryduulf (talk) 13:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

While I think that's a good start, I note that none of that is at all what the proposal here is about. It's not about whether articles like Hillary Clinton or Cat Stevens should mention those names, rather it would have us stop referring to Clinton as "Rodham" in pre-marriage sections of her life and change Cat Stevens#Musical career (1966–1978) to refer to him as "Yusuf". Anomie⚔ 15:12, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

My view was that the proposal will become what people want it to become. I mainly included the wording as an idea of what we'd be looking at purely adapting the wording we have currently in GENDERID (I tried to make that clear, but I probably didn't make it clear enough), with the expectation it could be changed as seen fit. (I don't think the wording I propose up there is great; whether even the second sentence of "any phase of a person's life" is helpful at-large is a fair question.) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 22:12, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

If we do such a thing, it should be part of a content policy (WP:BLP is the obvious one), not the manual of style. The MOS should describe how content is presented, not whether certain content is included. —Kusma (talk) 14:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

There's two strands to this, which can be asked as two questions. When do we include the former name(s) of a person? Which name do we use to refer to a person? The first question is one that should be part of BLP, as it is as you say a question on whether certain content should be included. The second should be in the MOS, because it's a question on how content should be presented. Sideswipe9th (talk) 15:15, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Separating the two aspects is a good idea and might reduce some of the drama and irrelevant comments. I'd suggest starting with the inclusion question would make sense (if we don't include a name, whether to refer to someone using it is not a relevant question). On that question I think there are only two (near) absolutes: If it's unverifiable it should never be included, if they were notable under that name it should (almost) always be included. For names that fall into neither of those categories, I firmly believe discussion should start from the position of "sometimes" not "always". What that "sometimes" is needs discussion, but if the subject has expressed a clear preference we need to have a really good encyclopaedic reason to not follow that.

Regarding the second question, if high quality reliable sources published after the change of name (almost) always or (almost) never use the latest name when discussing the person pre change of name then we should follow that lead. Similarly if the subject has expressed a clear preference we should follow that absent a really good encyclopaedic reason not to.

These discussions are likely to get long and involved, so it might be a good idea to have them on a dedicated page that is advertised here and at multiple other relevant venues. Thryduulf (talk) 15:45, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I like the idea of a subpage or some other dedicated venue for this discussion. There is a lot of different strands to work through with such an undertaking.

Though I realise this is something better suited for the subpage if we create one, on your reading of the second question if high quality reliable sources published after the change of name (almost) always or (almost) never use the latest name when discussing the person pre change of name then we should follow that lead, this is one area where we might still need a separate clause for trans and non-binary people. Due to transphobia and enbyphobia, even in high quality reliable sources, it is not unheard of for sources not to respect a name, pronoun, and/or gender identity change. It's also not uncommon for our only sources about a person's change of name, pronouns, and/or gender to be sourced entirely to themselves, as depending on when they announced the change reliable sources may no longer be covering their lives (eg someone who has largely retired from the public limelight). Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

There's two strands to this, which can be asked as two questions. When do we include the former name(s) of a person? Which name do we use to refer to a person? The first question is one that should be part of BLP, as it is as you say a question on whether certain content should be included. The second should be in the MOS, because it's a question on how content should be presented. The downside of relegating it to the MOS is that editors can dismiss it as "not policy" and come up with arguments why the MOS should be ignored. E.g. in an ongoing RfC the idea that including a deadname is mandatory under WP:NPOV (because it is mentioned in the reliable sources) has gained some traction, basically rendering MOS:GENDERID meaningless. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

where we might still need a separate clause for trans and non-binary people Isn't the whole point of this proposal to not continue to have separate guidelines for different groups of people? I also note that it's also not unheard of for publications to rush to erase all traces of a previous identity even where it would make sense to acknowledge it in appropriate historical context. Anomie⚔ 21:58, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't support completely folding in the guideline for names of trans people into some kind of general guideline on names. There really are some trans-specific parts of this situation I don't think we can incorporate into a more general guideline.

But I would support making some sort of general guideline on names and offloading some of what's currently in MOS:GENDERID over there. Loki (talk) 00:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Would you apply this principle to middle names? What would happen to articles that presently begin with "Matthew John David Hancock (born 2 October 1978) is a British politician"? Would that become "Matt Hancock"?

Would you apply this principle to people known by a name that isn't their legal name (e.g., a stage name, a married woman using her maiden name professionally)? What would happen to articles that begin with something like "Tupac Amaru Shakur, born Lesane Parish Crooks, also known by his stage names 2Pac and Makaveli, was an American rapper and actor"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:51, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing AIUI gathering the questions that need answers and working out the answer them is the point of this being a workshop rather than a proposal. In the case of your specific questions, they're relevant to whether we include names at all rather than how we refer to them in the prose. Thryduulf (talk) 16:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Distilling it, I think there's two good questions in there for a workshop. How do we handle the inclusion of the names of people who are primarily or overwhelmingly known by only a hypocorism (ie Matt Hancock)? And how do we handle the inclusion of the names of people who are primarily or overwhelmingly known only by a pseudonym, stage name, or some other form of nickname (ie Tupac Shakur)?

I've thought of a third question from this as well. How do we handle the inclusion of the names of people whose pseudonym or stage name is derived in part but not in whole from their birth name (eg David Tennant, Natalie Portman, John Legend)? Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

But an RFC based answer to all these questions, which are not currently problematic is just instruction creep. Jahaza (talk) 04:24, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

IMO, which means very little, this is not needed and could lead to erasure, particularly for women. For example: "A name that a person was not notable under, and has no relevance to their notability...should not be included" means we would erase a woman's identity if she was born with one name, married and took another, divorced and remarried, etc. I've written notable academics who used up to four names, but whose notability was primarily under one name. Do we just omit that whole part of their life, or call them someone they were not? Marilyn Monroe wasn't born (Norma Jeane Mortenson was); Monroe was created. This seems like bad policy aimed at a small segment of society to address a particularly difficult question for living people and expanding it to distort the historic record for everyone. We are creating an encyclopedia, which should be verifiable. I totally understand why deadnaming is harmful for living people, but if our work is to have historic value, we cannot create policy that makes verifying facts muddy. We have policies restricting what can be and cannot be in BLPs, expanding that to cover all time, is completely illogical. Bottom line, in naming people use common sense, we don't need this rule. SusunW (talk) 16:57, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

We should also seek advice from someone familiar with non-English naming conventions, like Yngvadottir. Icelandic uses both patronymic and matronymic naming systems. Spanish usually retains both parents' names, and your everyday name might not be your proper name (e.g., there are so many "Marías" that someone named María del Pilar <middle names> <mother's family name> <father's family name> will be called "Pilar <father's last name>" in everyday life.

Also, the common name may not be enough to figure out which person the article is about. Imagine how many "Bob Smiths" we might have in English, and then think about how few surnames some languages (e.g., Chinese) have. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:41, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Exactly! SusunW (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't this just be applied to people who don't want the prior name used? For trans people, it is generally implied that they are against their deadname being used, unless we have explicit sourcing to say otherwise on the person's stance, such as with Suzy Izzard. As for everyone else, if we're going to extend this usage, shouldn't we only apply it to people who we have evidence they don't want the previous name used? That will get us around problems like what SusunW brought up. Silverseren^C 19:55, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Precisely! Why are we making it so hard? It is rare that someone wants to omit their history so why would the rule default to the exception. SusunW (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

That makes perfect sense. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed with SusunW and Silverseren here. JoelleJay (talk) 01:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

This is exactly right. It's reasonably inferred, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that a trans person who changes their name would not want their deadname from before they were notable mentioned in their article. But the same presumption doesn't exist from other people who have changed their names for various other reasons. I would say there should be a rebuttable presumption to not include deadnames of trans people, but a reputable presumption to include the previous names of other people. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:33, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I think that on privacy grounds alone this is correct, but that privacy grounds are not the only reason why we wouldn't want to use a name in an article.

So for instance, the Japanese ruler Tokugawa Ieyasu was born Mastudaira Takechiyo, took the name Matsudaira Motonobu when he became an adult, changed it to Matsudaira Motoyasu one year later, then about six years later changed it to Matsudaira Ieyasu, and then finally made changed his family name to Tokugawa to reflect a complicated claim about his ancestry about four years after that. And we track all of that in detail, including using whatever the current name was for the period we're talking about.

Contrast with Marilyn Monroe, where we acknowledge the previous name but don't actually use it ever. Loki (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I would be fine with this. I also would note that before workshopping, I was considering the type of full name changes that trans people often undergo, rather than a simple married name change (which should probably still be avoided if there's an expressed distaste for that name, but I can't think of any cases of that off the top of my head). I guess the main thing I was looking at was which name we should be primarily refer to the subject as; I would be fine not applying most of GENDERID (particularly the parts that say to remove mentions of the old name for people who have no distaste for it) to these cases. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:55, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

There is no such thing, in my experience as a simple married name change. It's expensive, tedious and very, very time consuming. For the record, people who change their names because of marriage or divorce go through the exact same process as transgendered persons. You must obtain a legal record of the change or court order and then change social security, driver’s license, identification cards, financial records, insurance records, passport, and notify your employer, people you do business with, etc. etc. The only thing that is different, as far as I can tell is that trans people have the option of changing their birth certificate. I've lived in 3 different countries and the process for a name change was similar in all of them, but maybe there are places with a "simple process"? I'm also pretty sure deceased persons won't have an opinion, but again use common sense. If when they were living it was an issue, best don't include it unless it is widely reported. SusunW (talk) 23:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The "simple divorce name change" could be a bigger issue. I assume that there is a range of feelings among divorced women (or, for the multiply divorced, a range of feelings about their exes), but perhaps one of the underlying points is that we have had editors whose hobby (obsession?) is documenting full names and all known variations. It might not always be the kindest thing we can do to the BLPs, and in some cases, the name of an ex-spouse might be trivia rather than relevant information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:18, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

There is no such thing, in my experience as a simple married name change. It's expensive, tedious and very, very time consuming. That's not entirely true. In the UK and Ireland, changing your name is as simple as printing a deed poll at home, and then applying for new ID. There's a multitude of websites that provide templates for this, and there's no necessary payment or registration. You just print a document that basically states "I [blank] relinquish use of [former name] on [date] and will only use my new name from this date forward", and get two people who know you to sign it. There's no fee, no need to enrol it or get it notarised, and the only hassle is waiting for your first piece of new photo ID to arrive so you can start updating any services you use. Whenever I did this in the UK, I found it easiest to apply for an electoral ID card and updated passport, and once I had those getting everything else was straightforward. The entire process took maybe 6 weeks before I got my first piece of ID, and that was because Covid slowed down the electoral ID office. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:41, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Interesting. That must apply only to folks living in the UK. I've know British people who lived abroad that had to jump through all kinds of hoops. But as I said there may be places where it's simple. I love learning things, so thanks for that. SusunW (talk) 15:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

That must apply only to folks living in the UK I think so yes. The electoral ID card was (at the time) also specific only to Northern Ireland. If I'd lived elsewhere in the UK, it would have been my passport as the first changed document, and maybe a driver's license if I had one. If you're a Brit living abroad though, you should be able to do a remote passport application after a deed poll, though what impact that would have on any visa entitlements or EU settled status I wouldn't be able to tell you. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I think we could resolve all of this, and in the process simplify WP:BLPPRIVACY, by replacing it with:

Personal information related to an individual that has not been widely published by reliable and secondary sources should be excluded if a reasonable belief exists that the individual would not want the information disseminated.

The reasonable belief can be based on specific evidence related to the individual, but it is more typical that a rebuttable assumption is made on the basis that the class the information belongs is one that most individuals would wish to be kept private. These classes include, but are not limited to, postal addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, account numbers, full names, deadnames, and exact dates of birth.

If you see sensitive personal information such as telephone numbers, postal addresses, account numbers, etc. in a BLP or anywhere on Wikipedia, edit the page to remove it and contact the oversight team so that they can evaluate it and possibly remove it from the page history. To reduce the chances of triggering the Streisand effect, use a bland/generic edit summary and do not mention that you will be requesting Oversight.

The aspects that go into detail on how to resolve disputes about an individuals date of birth seem out of place in BLPPRIVACY and so could be split off into a separate section:

If multiple independent reliable sources state differing years or dates of birth in conflict, the consensus is to include all birth dates/years for which a reliable source exists, clearly noting discrepancies. In this situation, editors must not include only one date/year which they consider "most likely", or include merely a single date from one of two or more reliable sources. Original research must not be used to extrapolate the date of birth.

A verified social media account of an article subject saying about themselves something along the lines of "today is my 50th birthday" may fall under self-published sources for purposes of reporting a full date of birth. It may be usable if there is no reason to doubt it.

BLPPRIVACY currently lacks an overarching definition for what sort of personal information should generally be excluded, instead relying on a number of examples that editors then extrapolate from. By adding such a definition his would, in my opinion, resolve that problem and neatly add a reasonable and WP:NPOV-compliant basis for excluding most names that individuals object to including, including deadnames. BilledMammal (talk) 02:57, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Most if not all of the con arguments in the last RfC (still at the top of this page as of this writing) apply even more strongly to making a general rule about this instead of a TG/NB-specific one. And I warned that people would try to do exactly this. WP is an encyclopedia not a social media platform; we are here to report facts not kowtow to subjects' personal sentiments. There is no generalizable privacy right to hide one's former name(s) since they are a matter of public record; deadnames of trans/enby people are a consensus-built rare exception, and not always an exception. As a former professional privacy and civil-liberties activist, I have to observe that proposals like this reflect muddled thinking about what "privacy" is and means (just like a lot of "censorship" debates do, e.g. when they cry "censorship" if a commercial platform has terms of use and moderation policies).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

That's fair. I mainly saw a discussion I agreed with initially, that wasn't explored as much as I would have liked it to have been. The main goal was to get discussion started, and see where that went. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 22:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I don't see how at least in the case of people no longer with us, we should hide their birth name, trans or not. It is basic information in any encyclopedia. Maybe there could be certain exceptions like some sort of danger to their family or something. But an ideological reason is really stretching it. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Why is somebody's birth name so encyclopaedically important? In some cases I'm sure its relevant, but in many maybe most it's just trivia. Thryduulf (talk) 09:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That's a bit like asking "Why are humans so into pattern recognition that the human brain will sometimes invent patterns that don't actually exist?" It just is as it is. Maybe someone could do an academic study on why people care about birth names (and birth dates and other personal demographics) in biographies, but the clear fact we have to work with is is that they do, and biographical works by other publishers respond to this cultural need by including the information.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

On a related note, I made a draft that starts over with GENDERID and tries to make it clearly aligned with policy, while trying to maintain reasonable concerns for transgender people. I got some useful feedback so far and if I can refine it a bit more I'd like to take it here for an RFC. I understand the fatigue of the issue, but I think many of the RFCs were driven by trans-activists that made unreasonable proposals. If this revision goes through, I think it will get a lot less attention in the future. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 00:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

but I think many of the RFCs were driven by trans-activists that made unreasonable proposals

Well, that seems like an inappropriate statement. And makes you appear very unreliable to be involved in any of this, Cuñado. Silverseren^C 01:04, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Personally I think a WP:TNT would be a good idea, but that's not what I see there. If we really want to TNT it, we should start with something like what Thryduulf posted above. And later we should reexamine other assumptions too. Anomie⚔ 01:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

On the one hand we have trans people, who typically want or need to leave behind their previous self, and on the other hand we have people who use alternative names for other reasons. If someone's taken their partner's surname, or changed their name because it could be confused with someone else in the same profession, or just happen to have a name that's very common, then that doesn't represent a change of identity. Where someone's left behind a previous self, there are issues of dignity and respect that we need to consider, but where someone hasn't, giving their previous name is simply giving out encyclopaedic information that won't do any damage.—S Marshall T/C 07:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed name changes happen for various reasons and guidance needs to (unlike some editors) acknowledge that multiple types exist and that different considerations exist for the different types. Broadly I think we can categorise name changes into the following top-level types (numbered for convenience only):

1. Multiple public names used in parallel: There are no privacy or similar concerns with any of them and which to use is mostly a style matter, although some subjects may have a preference for one over the other.

   For example, nicknames and shortenings - someone might prefer to be referred to in their article as "Matt" rather than "Matthew", "MJ" rather than "Michael" or "Michael James", etc. (or vice versa) but doing it otherwise is not normally a BLP failure.

2. Consecutive public names: Different names are used at different times in their life, but there are no privacy issues with previous names.

   Changes of name at marriage are a typical example. Which name to use for times prior to the current name adoption is a style matter where we should follow the subject's preference if they have expressed one, but doing it a different way is very rarely going to be a BLP issue.

3. Role-based names: Different names are used for different parts of their life. Some subjects may regard one name as public and another as private, others will regard both/all as public.

   Stage names are probably the most common (but not only) example. Generally only public names should be used to refer to the subject, but which to use if there is more than one and whether private ones should be included at all will vary.

4. Deadnames: Former names that are no longer used for any purpose and are often very private.

   While trans people are possibly those who most commonly have deadnames, and the most likely to use this term, the concept is not exclusive to them. Deadnames should only be included if the subject was notable under that name or has expressed a clear preference for inclusion. A clearly expressed preference by the subject is only time deadnames should be used to refer to them, even for times before the name change.

5. Unused names: Names that are (part of) the subject's legal name but which they use only when necessary.

   Examples include middle names and where a nickname is used for all aspects of daily life, public and private. Inclusion may or may not be encyclopaedic but they should never be used to refer to the subject.

The same person may have more the one name in the same category (e.g. two nicknames) and/or names in more than one category (e.g. a deadname and a stage name). There are also likely names that don't fit (neatly) into any of the above categories and even ones that do will need to be considered on a case-by-case basis to determine details. Thryduulf (talk) 09:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

If where someone's left behind a previous self, there are issues of dignity and respect that we need to consider is what we want to apply to writing about someone who was notable under a previous identity, then why should that "dignity and respect" stop at anachronous use of name and pronouns? Why don't we have an article at the old name that covers that identity's life and ends with that identity ceasing to exist at the time it was left behind, and a separate article on the new identity at the new name that covers only that identity's origin and accomplishments? Anomie⚔ 11:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

If both are notable then in some cases we should. In other cases it would not be what the subject would consider respectful. Thryduulf (talk) 12:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Why should that matter? I'm fine with excluding previous identities per WP:BLPPRIVACY when they don't contribute to a subject's notability, but when they are relevant I think we should report the history clearly and accurately. As we do for other things people may not want known about themselves that don't happen to be a current focus of the culture war. Anomie⚔ 11:42, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

For the non-trans "deadname", I think a useful example might be people who change their family names to disown a traitor or other infamous family member.

I know that some indigenous groups change names frequently (e.g., a new name when you become an adult, or after a life-changing experience). I don't know how any of them feel about the prior names, but that's something we could look up. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:36, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and there's the Taboo on the dead#Taboo against naming the dead, which I suppose is another way of changing your name. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

No… we do not need a one-size-fits-all “rule” for how to present name changes… because every name change is a UNIQUE situation.

That said… My own pet peeve is that we often overload the opening sentences with prior names - which can highlight them unnecessarily.

Sometimes it is better to “downplay” a prior name by NOT mentioning it the lead - and instead introducing it later in the article (for example, in an “early life” section), where it can be presented in a historical context. Blueboar (talk) 15:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

No… we do not need a one-size-fits-all “rule” for how to present name changes... which is exactly why one is not being proposed. The aim is to come up with some guidelines for how to present name changes in different scenarios that editors can work with to apply best practice to the situation that applies to a specific subject. Thryduulf (talk) 09:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Having had more time to think about this from multiple angles and through tangentially related discussions at WT:MOS, I end up concluding that trying to "borrow" the deadnaming idea from TG/NB/GQ subjects and apply it to anyone, ever, who has changed their name and would rather never hear/see the old one again, like the entertainer Teller, is basically subcultural appropriation of a certain type of wrong that affects the real subcultural class very differently and much more potently, then applying it in an aggradizing way to something else, trivializing the concept in the process. It ultimately reminds me of bogus arguments that have been made about "Celtic" indentured servants in early America being "the same as" enslaved Africans, or mockery of satiric pseudo-religions (Chuch of the SubGenius, etc.) being "the same as" attacking someone for being Jewish or Amish or whatever, and several other false-analogy arguments that people make involving a real sociological class with a shared social experience, and something else entirely that is only similar in a superficial way. I don't mean to imply any wrongful motivation, mind you; I think this is just a case of one sort of very narrow and rather dubious "sensitivity" colliding headlong into a broader and more obvious and well-defined one.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Without looking it up, what year and day were the ends of the 6th century BC?

I bet you had to look it up, or at the very least, think about it for a few seconds, and you probably weren't sure about the exact days. Me too! Anyway, in our article, we say that it was from the first day of 600 BC to the last day of 501 BC. Okay, sure.

But I think it is probably bad for us to be saying stuff like this all the time when it's so confusing. For example, Draco (lawgiver) says Draco (/ˈdreɪkoʊ/; Greek: Δράκων, Drakōn; fl. c. 7th century BC) and that most of his laws were repealed by Solon in the early 6th century BC, et cetera. What does that mean? Like, he was around in the 700s? Or the 600s? And then his laws were repealed somewhere around a hundred years later, or maybe 150, or maybe almost 200 -- who knows?

Now, the idea of going through and replacing every single instance of the phrases would be so massively onerous and disruptive to article flow -- to be blunt, such a pain in the arse -- that I don't think it is worth talking about. I mean, maybe some people would like to do this (and if everyone agreed to this I wouldn't object), but I don't see it as being a very popular choice.

So what I propose, instead, is something like this:

Elements of the Animal style are first attested in areas of the Yenisei river and modern-day China in the 10th century BC.

Founded by the Phoenicians in the ninth century BC, Carthage reached its height in the fourth century BC as one of the largest metropolises in the world.

It is a tooltip, so it is not so intrusive as to disrupt the text; for example, simply replacing it in this case would have produced the bizarre "in the from 1000 BC to 901 BC". I think that it greatly aids readbility, since people who already understand it have no extra text to deal with, while on the other hand, there is no need for anyone to open up a second tab or count on their fingers or whatever to figure out what the heck we are talking about. What do we all think of this? I think it would be good, and it has some precedent; note that we already use a similar template for "circa" (i.e. "c. 570 BC") jp×g 20:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I like the tooltip idea. There are times in my life where I was immersed in BCE history and parsing decade/century/millenia references came naturally. It's shocking how quickly that goes away, and I'd be greatly assisted as a reader (at least when on desktop) by those tooltips. A dedicated template and some guidance at MOS:CENTURY would be nice. I invited editors at WT:DATE to this discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't work on articles that this would apply to, but as a reader, I would really appreciate that type of tooltip. (I confess, the backward-counting of BC/BCE dating hurts my brain.) Schazjmd (talk) 20:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think a template for this would be hurtful in any way, but I have to point out that deploying it would require "going through and replacing every single instance of the phrases" which was said to be "so massively onerous and disruptive to article flow -- to be blunt, such a pain in the arse".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:12, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I like it, but I'd use it sparingly; it would look bizarre if many centuries in an article were underlined (especially as the AD/CE ones wouldn't be). I imagine a template (or pair of them for BC and BCE?) could be very easy to use. NebY (talk) 22:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Might it not be even more helpful to say something like "Founded by the Phoenicians in the ninth century BC, Carthage reached its height in the fourth century BC five centuries later as one of the largest"? The exact years for the century are kind of irrelevant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That would be asking the reader to do a calculation to understand when Carthage was at its height, though that's more significant than the time of its founding and far more important than the time it took to peak. NebY (talk) 10:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

If the date at which it reached its peak is more important, then we could do it the other way around. I don't realistically expect to need to know that Carthage's peak was in the fourth century BC, but I can imagine someone (e.g., a student) looking for that date. But I can't really imagine why that student would then need to know that this century ended in exactly 301 BC. Carthage's peak didn't start in exactly 400 BC, and it didn't end at exactly 301 BC. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree; the precise century endpoints don't matter in these situations. I think jp×g's intention now – despite that heading – is to save us the brief pause in reading while we do the math to convert "fourth century" into whatever else works in our own minds (I think mine is something like "3xx", or it might be "the century after the Peloponnesian War" - it varies). Whether we do pause and do that math probably varies too; for me, "fourth century BC" is often meaningful without such conversion, being the same century various other things were happening elsewhere (and if you're interested in Carthage or ancient Mediterranean history, that's worth knowing), but I might do the math on ninth century. NebY (talk) 18:33, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Prefer c. 900s BCE, to avoid ordinal–cardinal fencepost errors. Folly Mox (talk) 05:05, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That's very ambiguous; does that mean any time in the 900s, from 999 to 900, or circa that time eg from 1020 to 880, or around 900, or what? It's not as if we're bothered to include or exclude 900 BCE as a possible date anyway; this is more broad-brush and ultimately unknowable. NebY (talk) 10:21, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

To my brain (which is dumb; see below), "900s BCE" is exactly as ambiguous as "10th century BCE", and carries the exact same meaning, but skips the step of accidentally thinking the date is in between 1100 BCE and 1000 BCE because of how the counting is handled differently for time periods of different lengths. Folly Mox (talk) 02:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the question is about the c. "Founded by the Phoenicians in the 800s BCE" means the same thing as "Founded by the Phoenicians in the 9th century BCE". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I like this idea as it makes understanding BC time more intuitive. As others have said, I think it should be used sparingly and, when possible, replaced with explanatory prose. Thanks for encouraging us to think about how we can make Wikipedia easier to read (instead of leaving me to shamefully google...) Wracking ^talk! 05:05, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

A tuesday. I went to college. You can trust me on this. It was definitely a tuesday. That's why Pope Gregory said "Screw you Caesar. We're doing this thing on the weekend, because trying to start your New Year's resolution on hump day is depressing."

But in seriousness, at some level, the weird backward dating system we have that starts...for some reason...several years after Jesus was born...is just a necessary evil. It's a historical artifact that we've just learned to live with. It's like having to constantly look up the French Republican Calendar because freaking nobody remembers the difference between the months of Thermidor and Brumaire. GMG^talk 11:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I prefer the numerical system, which IMHO, is always more precise and understandable, than the centuries system, which I think opens itself up to subtle misunderstandings in a number of ways. If I say something happened "in the 1700s" than every reader knows that it happened at a time when the year digits went "17XX", i.e. between 1700-1799 inclusive. It is easily understandable, impossible to confuse, and well defined. If I say something happened "in the eighteenth century", there is too many chances for misunderstanding (because most of the years in the eighteenth century don't have the number 18 in them!) and issues with fencepost errors as noted (sensu stricto, the eighteenth century and the 1700s are not identical; one goes 1700-1799, and the other goes 1701-1800), and I'd rather not play those unnecessary games with the readers. If we just used the "in the 1700s" as a style choice across the board, we lose nothing, but gain both consistency and improve the experience for the reader. --Jayron32 16:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Except "the 1700s" also means 1700–1709. There's a reason we avoid it. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

It can also mean that, in an extremely limited number of cases. Whenever I have to deal with that problem I clarify the prose like "the decade following 1700", or "between 1700 and 1710". Folly Mox (talk) 02:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeps. It can get frustrating when you run into it in an article and actually have to go dig up the original source to see what range was originally intended.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with you, more or less in toto. As far as I can tell, centuries were invented by Dionysius Exiguus (?) under rather different constraints than we have nowadays (for example, there had only been like five of them at the time, and who knows how many more there were going to be). I do not think we really gain anything from saying "the seventeenth century" and then meaning 1650. Why would seventeen mean sixteen? Because a monk from five hundred wrote it in a book? In twenty-one? I think Dionysius would agree that this was stupid (indeed, a few hundred years ago monks did realize that the dating system was stupid, and change it, at great expense and through great effort). Anyway, though, I don't think we are going to have much success trying to get every Wikipedia article to eschew centuries completely. Even if it were possible to get buy-in, it'd be quite hard to adjust (and to account for sources that routinely use century notation). I figure this is a neat little stopgap until such a time as the Pope can officially fix the off-by-one error, or whoever the hell is in charge of that nowadays. jp×g 05:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

It's not an error, though, it's technically correct. The 1600s are the 17th century since (the traditional date of) Jesus's birth, in the same way that a person is 1 year old in the 2nd year of their life. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 06:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I wonder about the visual clutter from special tooltips across every mention of a century, but when looking to see what might help our readers I was surprised how little our articles explain these common points of dating confusion. Unhelpfully for our readers, neither 21st century nor 3rd millennium explain the common off-by-one error that saw worldwide celebrations on 1 January 2000. On the other hand, Century does have a brief explanation, and for some reason Millennium is entirely about this off-by-one confusion. CMD (talk) 06:17, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Cute little template

In light of all this, I have written {{century BC}}, which implements this automatically for everything between 1 and 40. Like this:

• {{century BC|24}}

24th

• {{century BC|24th}}

24th century BC

• {{century BC|24th-}}

24th-century BC

• {{century BC|twenty-fourth}}

twenty-fourth century BC

• {{century BC|Twenty-fourth}}

Twenty-fourth century BC

This isn't perfect -- and it occurs to me now that it might even be nicer to have one that gives a range (i.e. "14th – 13th centuries BC" having a single tooltip rather than two separate ones) -- but I think it is a decent starting point. I am not sure whether it's better to tooltip the whole phrase or just the digits (i.e. 24th century BC versus 24th century BC). Let me know what you all think. For an example of it in action, I give a demonstration at Trojan War. jp×g 22:28, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

User:JPxG, can you make a binary flag for BCE? Or just copypaste the template .gsub("BC","BCE")? I'd do it but I don't have mass string replacement in my phone's text editor. A flag for smallcaps would be pretty premium as well, since there are many articles which like to format their dates e.g. 1046 BCE.

As an afterthought, I know the beckwards-counting BCE era is more problematic for people, but personally my major problem as I alluded to without explanation due to sleepiness above, is the one-based enumeration of centuries versus the zero-based enumeration of years. I've known since smol how it's supposed to work, but one of the many dumb parts of my brain always thinks "the 17th century" means the years 1700–1799, because math. So honestly an AD / CE version of this would be kinda just as helpful. Folly Mox (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, you can do it with {{century BC|twenty-fourth}}E:

twenty-fourth century BCE

although it does rather stupidly leave the "E" out of the underline. If there's no way to fix that, I suppose it would take about two minutes to copy the template over, although inelegant (further changes would need to be made to both templates). I really half-assed the code as it is, so it'd be no great loss to start over with something more intelligent anyway. jp×g 05:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I also get confused by BC dates, but I think this tooltip is too distracting for the little benefit it provides. First of all, don't forget that most readers are on mobile; looking at the mobile view of Trojan War, I see a lot of underlined dates but I can't interact with them in any way. It gives the impression that they're only underlined for emphasis. Secondly, I suspect that the vast majority of readers would simply read the phrase "12th century BC" to mean "a long time ago", and wouldn't care about the exact date range. I don't think it's worth confusing or distracting a large number of readers for the benefit of a small minority. I'm also concerned that the addition of date ranges may introduce a false precision in some cases; when a historian says that something happened in the 6th century BC, it's not always because they know for a fact that it didn't happen in 601. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 06:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I was pleased to see it wasn't as distracting as I feared on my desktop, but then I looked at Trojan War on my phone and found underlinings with no function and no way to discover their meaning; pressing them doesn't help at all. Unless and until that can be overcome, this is a nice idea that works out badly. NebY (talk) 18:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

As a reader, I really rather strongly oppose this. Looking at the Trojan War example, having all the centuries underlined is distracting. Even more so when it's on mobile and I can't use the tooltips anyway. I'm also concerned about the false precision mentioned by Sojourner above. Also, having a template transcluded for every mention of a century in a page might hit the transclusion limit.

Additionally, it's not an error. There is no "off by one" error in centuries. The range isn't a mistake, it's math, it's by definition. A "century" is 100 years. The first century was the first 100 years, years 1-100 (there was no year 0). The first century ended at year 100. The second century began in 101 and ended at 200. The third century ended in 300, and so forth. For BCE, it's the same in reverse. The first century BCE began at 100 BCE and ended at 1 BCE. The second century began in 200 and ended in 101. The 21st century CE will end in the year 2100, and includes 2001-2100. The 21st century BCE was 2100 BCE to 2001 BCE. Personally, I don't find that confusing at all, it's perfectly logical, I mean it's math, it's arithmetic.

I also don't think the world at large -- our readers -- would find "the century system" confusing, either. And my evidence for this is that we've used this century system in English for like 1,000+ years. I don't see any other websites providing tooltips or even explanations for centuries. Like The New York Times doesn't write "in the 20th century (1901-2000)," do they? So I don't think this is a problem that needs to be solved. Levivich (talk) 23:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Although I'd support it if it was something that readers/editors could turn on/off. Levivich (talk) 01:22, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

See also mw:Just make it a user preference and https://archive.uie.com/brainsparks/2011/09/14/do-users-change-their-settings/ It's possible that those of us who change our preferences are not normal. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:14, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, there is nobody I know of who uses parenthetical clarification for the 20th century AD. Centuries AD, in general, are fairly simple: (n - 1) * 100. What I mean to say is that, for centuries BC, this already-annoying convention becomes baffling. Sure, one may say, people who want to learn about Homer's epics ought to just learn to read centuries BC before trying to start reading the article -- but by the same token, why translate them at all, why not just soft-redirect to el:Όμηρος?

As for the issue of the tooltips, I have looked a bit at the documentation for {{tooltip}} and I have not seen any slam-bang solution for hiding them on mobile. It seems like it's obviously possible to do this, since stuff like navboxes are completely invisible to mobile users, but perhaps it's beyond my reach for today. jp×g 08:03, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

AFD discussion touching on a VPP RFC

A discussion has been opened regarding the deletion of 82 airline destination-list articles that can be seen here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Air Midwest destinations FOARP (talk) 14:22, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

AFD Question - Article recreated with different name

Maybe I should be asking this somewhere else. This is an AFD question, and I am asking it here because this is a much-visited board. A BLP of an Internet personality was created, and was nominated for deletion, and was deleted. A new BLP has been created, using a form of the name that may be trying to game the name. The article has now been nominated for deletion as not notable. The question is: Should I tag the article for speedy deletion, G4, in addition to commenting at the AFD, or is it more courteous simply to state Delete and Speedy Delete in the AFD? This is not a unique question. This happens periodically, with topics, either people or albums or other topics, that have a cult following who try to game the name after an AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:12, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Is the page basically the same as it was before, or is it different? If it has changed, then G4 no longer applies, even if notability is not still met, since G4 excludes pages that are not substantially identical to the deleted version. Why? I Ask (talk) 23:17, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I didn't participate in the original deletion discussion, and so wouldn't know. If I were reviewing a draft at AFC that had previously been deleted by AFD, I would ask to have the deleted article restored in my user space. (I did that with a different draft yesterday.) Okay. So I will let the deletion discussion run, and at some point an administrator will probably compare the article and the deleted article. By the way, it's Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Simon Minter (Miniminter). Robert McClenon (talk) 00:19, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon The article being discussed currently is sufficiently different to the article that was deleted that G4 does not apply. Thryduulf (talk) 08:59, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. So the AFD should run for seven days. The gaming of titles after AFD is a common problem. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:58, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

If the article is basically the same, it may be speedy deleted regardless of title. If the article is different enough, it may not be speedy deleted, also regardless of title. Having the same name makes detection easier, but once detected it's irrelevant for deletion. Animal lover |666| 18:33, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Why can't registered users edit using blocked IP addresses?

Moved from Wikipedia talk:Village pump (policy)

There are good reasons for disallowing anonymous users from editing through open proxies and web-hosted services, but blocking the IP addresses has the side effect of also locking out established logged-in users. This does not serve any purpose I can think of. Is it technically impossible to implement blocking IP addresses for anonymous editing while atill allowing editing by logged-in extended confirmed editors?  --Lambiam 15:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Just log in from a different location. Blueboar (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Realistically, no one is going to travel to a different location to edit; they'll just donate their time to some other cause instead. Allowing registered users to edit from blocked IP addresses is technically possible and is already done for many addresses and many accounts; see WP:IPBE. One problem with always doing it is that sneaky vandals can create new accounts. Certes (talk) 17:39, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree that just log in from a different location is practically unrealistic for many users. Even I, a sort of nerd, cannot just simply log in from a different location when I'm mobile, and the methods that I could use without paying for a VPN are already blocked for various reasons. I once spent a week in a rural place where the one local ISP subnet was blocked and that was it for me; rather than deal with the process I just decided to not fix things that week. Yet Lambiam's question specifically suggests granting automatic exceptions to extended confirmed users, which IMO does present a decent enough barrier for many bad actors. Yes, I'm aware that some LTVs jump this hurdle, but if we took all the what if some hardcore vandal does this arguments to heart, nobody would be able to edit at all. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

True; allowing EC editors to be IP block exempt seems very useful and almost harmless. I'd be interested to hear from those more familiar with blocking why it's not done. Certes (talk) 22:07, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

This is a weird place to have this discussion. Why it's done is simply the reason you've identified above: sockpuppets and banned users evade IP blocks and/or conceal their 'real' identity, either by using proxy IPs or (with IPBE) by using their own blocked IPs. I want to add that changing a location is not always practical, I get that, but sometimes just not using a proxy is a reasonable compromise, like if you're sat in your own home. At other times, IPBE might be appropriate. Other times the block may need re-visiting. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 22:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

While all of that is true, it still doesn't address why extended confirmed users can't be automatically exempted. If we trust EC users enough to edit through EC protection, then why not through certain IP ranges? (And where would be a more appropriate place to discuss this? The implementation would be technical but it's still a policy issue IMO.) Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 22:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

This is the talk page of the VPP project page. Like most talk pages, this type of talk page is more for talking about the page rather than talking about other things. You're welcome to move this discussion or start a new one on the policy page, as far as I'm concerned (you could even continue here and it won't bother me). To answer the question, we don't trust automatically trust every EC user with many things. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:07, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah, whoopsie regarding the talk page vs. the project page. Pinging Lambiam in case they want to move it there for wider visibility. At least for me, "we don't trust X with many things" feels like a policy version of WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST, but I've given my thoughts on this issue and won't push any more. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 23:18, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

If an EC user makes abusive edits, whether through an open proxy or from a regular address, they can be blocked without blocking the IP address. This is a fundamental difference with anonymous users, who can only be block by blocking the IP addresses they are known to use.  --Lambiam 22:51, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

why extended confirmed users can't be automatically exempted We already have LTAs who game extended confirmed for the sole purpose of disrupting bluelocked articles. Making IPBE something that's granted automatically to EC editors would have impacts elsewhere as zzuuzz has implied.

That said, not all IP blocks are the same. For disruptive IPs we already distinguish between hard and soft blocks. As the blocking policy states, the most common type of IP block is a softblock, that prevents only anonymous editing while still allowing already created accounts to edit. Hardblocking, which prevents all edits except for IPBE editors and admins, are typically used for proxies, and colocation and webhosts, due to the higher risk of disruptive editing those services come with. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:19, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I can see how being exempt could help a determined vandal, but raising a sleeper account to EC is hard work and blocking it isn't. Certes (talk) 22:12, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Can't creating new accounts be blocked while still allowing extended confirmed users to edit?  --Lambiam 22:45, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Most IP blocks that aren't of open proxies should actually already be softblocks (anon. only, account creation blocked), only those ranges that get substantial disruption from throwaway accounts should have the block applied to logged in accounts also. Of course, for those non-open-proxy but source-of-sock-disruption ranges, IPBE is supposed to be granted fairly readily, and it may be worth allowing EC editors automatic exemption from those if it happens a lot, but I do not believe this is currently technically possible. Alpha3031 (t • c) 14:05, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

• Did we abolish WP:IPBE? For registered users who have a legitimate reason to edit through a blocked IP address, a mechanism exists to allow them to do that. What's the problem, exactly? --Jayron32 12:48, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

RfC at WP:NOT

There is an RfC at WP:NOT regarding modifications to WP:NOTDIRECTORY that editors may be interested in contributing to. There are two proposals, which can be found here and here. BilledMammal (talk) 10:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

RfC on common name vs. consistency in pagename

2nd opinion requested

I have this going on: Talk:Sweden national football team#Requested move 27 July 2023 about including the word "men's" in the pagename. Football enthusiasts are disregarding WP:COMMONNAME entirely and are making the case for an inconsistent consistency regarding national teams pagenames. I would really like to have a second opinion and hear what normal wikipedians have to say about that, both here and on the RM discussion, because the responses there make me feel like I have ended up in a parallel dimension. Thanks. --Mango från yttre rymden (talk) 00:20, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to split MOS:GENDERID from Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Proposal to split MOS:GENDERID from Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography, a proposal to move material out of MOS:BIO and the main MoS page, and to a new guideline page (the page currently exists as an essay).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Quotation mark after dot

Is "quotation mark after dot." some American thing? Eurohunter (talk) 20:24, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Eurohunter: Its part of the Manual of Style. See MOS:LQ. See the guidance there for if the punctuation goes inside or outside the quote. There is also the essay at Wikipedia:Logical_quotation_on_Wikipedia. In short, it is not a British vs American thing. RudolfRed (talk) 20:34, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@RudolfRed: I just found there Quotation marks in English#Ending the sentence. Eurohunter (talk) 20:49, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Did the old "Superprotect" protection level ever have its own lock image?

I was wondering because I was thinking of adding an image of it to the "Former deleted protections" section of WP:PP. LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 00:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

If it did, you'd probably find it at Wikidata, where Superprotect was used on a few items (with community consensus). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

We never had a padlock icon for superprotection. That prot level was never used here, and although superprotect is mentioned at Wikipedia talk:Protection policy/Archive 16 theer is no suggestion of a possible icon. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Barbenheimer has an RFC

Barbenheimer has an RFC on whether a certain instance of humor is appropriate on Wikipedia. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

No, the RfC is not about humor but about the use of an appropriate long-term caption with explanatory cites and links (notice the cites and links are not included in the nomination text) and the unusual interest in changing the caption to highlight the name of one of the two film characters being discussed and lessen the in-universe name of a female icon. The RfC itself should be null and void for another reason other than the nomination not listing the caption correctly: its biased name. The name of the RfC is "Okay, everyone, let's do this!" Randy Kryn (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

IMO the RFC is mostly WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT people arguing with WP:IJUSTLIKEIT people. Anomie⚔ 12:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

That's exactly the sort of discussion I want to spend my Sunday participating in. Cheerio, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Use by others, and notability of sources.

We are having a bit of of a disconnect on this subject. Some examples:

• Recently, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ImportGenius was closed as no consensus. Nobody constructed a clear case that the subject met WP:CORP, but there was a lot of discussion around the fact that the company's data (its product, that is) was cited frequently by RS.
• Recently, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/EnergySage (2nd nomination) was also closed as no consensus. Again, no compelling case that the subject met WP:CORP. Some discussion around its use by others.
• Note also the ongoing RFC specifically about notability of journals at Wikipedia talk:Notability (academic journals) § RfC on notability criteria.

One of the trickiest parts of this is that it's particularly hard to find good sources for sources, especially ones for which the notability is right on the margin of meeting WP:GNG. You end up overwhelmed by citations of the source. It's not an ideal state for a 7-day AfD discussion, nor for editors choosing whether to bring an article to AfD in the first place.

I will also note an essay Wikipedia:Notability of reliable sources that has discussed this in some depth, no prejudice towards any of the specifics in it.

If we could come up with a clear, broad subject-specific notability criteria for sources based their use by others, we could resolve a lot of this. I don't have a specific proposal yet but wanted to gauge thoughts in this area at this time. —siroχo 06:04, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Based on a quick search/skim of sources given, I agree that these two companies are marginal. If I had !voted it would be weak X on whichever side of the line.

I think that a source being consistently cited (as opposed to discussed) by other sources on high-risk topics (e.g. topics with potential corrections/libel risks) can be an indicator of reliability. But I'm not sure it's an indicator of notability. If it were, that would extend notability to every glorified PR agency, dubious purveyor of fluff polls, and entrepreneur guy who likes to be quoted in the press as an expert, etc. Gnomingstuff (talk) 06:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed on that front. I think mixing notability with reliability is not the way to go. Hypothetically, it would be convenient to be able to craft an SNG that requires a source to be reliable, but we'd risk overwhelming WP:RSN with notability questions, and also it might fall afoul of NPOV to base our inclusion criteria on Wikipedia using the source itself.

I'm hoping there's a different way we can exclude such things. The essay I linked had one hypothetical critera There is an in-Wikipedia consensus among experienced editors that a source is especially important for a niche topic which could be a starting point. I.e. a criteria not actually based on reliability or use per se, but instead on the collective knowledge of editors that a source is, in fact, notable due to it's importance. —siroχo 07:25, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I get what you're trying to do; I'm just not sure that it's possible to generalize beyond a case-by-case basis. There's a difference between thinking a company produces reliable enough data to put in your magazine article (for instance) about something else, and thinking a company is noteworthy enough to run an entire magazine article about it.

I don't think any of the suggestions in the essay you linked are feasible, nor do the suggestions seem especially informed. ("There is no obvious audience for publishing on [sources]"?) Not sure whether you're suggesting this but an unreliable source can still be notable -- e.g., the National Enquirer. Gnomingstuff (talk) 18:13, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Proposed amendment on revision deletion for articles on ongoing Ru military operations

Within the territory of the Russian Federation, a number of Wikipedia articles have been banned, which relate to ongoing military operations undertaken by their armed forces. Some of these banned articles have resulted in fines for Wikipedia's parent, the Wikimedia Foundation. As of July 2023, there have been a total of 7 fines resulting in over 8.4 million rubles. Similar measures may also exist to a degree wrt to Ukrainian laws on the relevant topics.

After doing some digging around, it appears that the Russian Wikimedia arbitration committee has made the decision to anonymise editors for topics directly of a military nature, for the purposes of the safety of editors. I am proposing that similar measures be implemented for the English language site for at least until the end of military activities. The justification for this move would be to help with preserving the privacy, and security of editors in an environment with potential increased risk. Specifically, this would be a temporary addition to the WP:RVDL criteria, focused on the removal of editor usernames/IP, as well as edit descriptions which mention users.

Interested in hearing what people think 222.154.81.234 (talk) 10:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Articles directly related to the Russo-Ukrainian war on en.wikipedia should be extended-confirmed protected due to the general sanctions in place, therefore no IP editors should be able to edit such articles (though they can still make edit requests on talk). For registered users, it's generally left up to them how anonymous they want to be. In the case of someone who's already "out" and at risk, I wonder whether editing this area would be legitimate grounds for using an alternate account? – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 13:17, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. In general, I would agree with the use of extended confirmed protection, although this may possibly make the use of alternative accounts difficult.

For already involved users, perhaps still extending the RVSL criteria to include requests is still an option. Still think that the original proposal stands as registered editors with more contributions have a higher chance of a breach of personal privacy. 222.154.81.234 (talk) 18:35, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

NJOURNALS again

For context, see Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_183#NJOURNALS_essay_under_discussion along with WT:NJOURNALS and its archives.

A new Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(academic_journals)#RfC_on_notability_criteria dropped. Would love to see if any watchers here may have any way to help.

jps (talk) 13:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)