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Request to re-open RFC
This a request to reopen an RFC and allow it to run longer, because:
- Legobot tagged the RFC on September 29; the DNAU was dated Nov. 3 (tomorrow).
- On October 30, further input was requested at VPR
- That day, 2 editors voted (including me)
- On October 31, 4 editors voted
- On November 1, 1 editor voted
- On November 2, 1 editor voted
- Five hours later, the RFC was closed as "no consensus."
- The closer wrote, "It's right to close it now," but I disagree. There is no rule that says an RFC must be closed after 30 days, and this one was still attracting new participants daily -- this is contrary to WP:WHENCLOSE
- Of the 8 new votes that had come in after the VPR posting, 5 were "yes" and 3 were "no," so this was trending towards consensus, rather than away from it.
- The final tally at closure was 18 yes, 13 no, or 58% in favor (18/31).
Aside from being closed too early, I think the closing statement itself does not meet the standards for closing statements, because:
- It provided no explanation for how it arrived at a no-consensus result -- as WP:CLOSE says, "A good closer will transparently explain how the decision was reached." This closing statement didn't do that.
- The closing statement did not summarize, or even identify, any arguments, on either side
- It did not weigh any votes, although some votes seemed to lack any meaningful rationale (such as the final one)
- It did not count the votes (if you think that sort of thing matters)
- What it did was simply assert "no consensus," and then write a generic description of how WP:ONUS works after a no-consensus RFC.
Because there was still active, daily participation from new editors, because the trend line was towards consensus rather than away from it, and because the closing statement didn't explain the no-consensus result or otherwise follow WP:CLOSE or WP:ACD, I think this should be re-opened and allowed to continue running until participation dries up, and then re-closed. This will be more efficient than having to re-run the RFC later, and so will save editor time in the long run. Levivich (talk) 19:06, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- "
It did not count the votes
. See Wikipedia:Consensus: "Consensus on Wikipedia does not require unanimity (which is ideal but rarely achievable), nor is it the result of a vote
". Given there was no consensus in the weight of the arguments (based on policy and guidelines), the "trending towards consensus" claim is a straw man. Vote counting has never had a place on WP.In your little chronology, you missed the point that Legobot removing expired RFC template on 29 October after thirty days, so it's already run over a fair period already. The advertisement at VPR on 30 October was the second time it had been advertised at that venue, the first time being on 29 September. Is creating more heat and dramah and dragging out a timesink rfc really beneficial? It wasn't on 30 October (when I requested a close at WP:RFCL, and I doubt it is now either. - SchroCat (talk) 19:16, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Closer: Levivich gives me two substantive points to respond to.
- I closed the discussion prematurely. No, I didn't. That discussion had gone on for more than the requisite amount of time. It was eligible to be closed. With AfDs, there's a deplorable tendency to relist them when they don't reach consensus, but RfCs aren't the same; they're 30 day discussions that suck up a lot of volunteer time. We only want them relisted in exceptional circumstances. The "trending towards consensus" argument reduces to "if you'd closed it at a different time you might have got to the result I wanted".
- I didn't say how I got to "no consensus", and I didn't summarise the arguments, and I didn't count the !votes, and I simply asserted that the outcome was no consensus, all of which are just the same point said four different ways. The arguments reduce to "Infoboxes are useful" and "The infobox information is redundant to the first paragraph". Editors cited no policy or guideline that says we should or shouldn't have infoboxes, because no such policy or guideline exists. It's just an aesthetic judgment.
- Changes to an article need consensus; the consensus wasn't there; and at some point we have to draw a line under it.—S Marshall T/C 20:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Closed when !votes were still coming in, better to re-open it now and let that continue to see if a consensus can develop. nableezy - 22:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Why do we have to draw a line under it? That is how filibustering works, when you have what you want in place you can block changes by "no consensus". If anything, your close opens the door to a brand new rehashing of the same discussion, because you didnt draw a line under it, you left it unresolved. If the discussion is continuing to get new input it should be allowed to continue. Because right now, the way I see it, anybody is totally justified in opening a brand new RFC on the exact same question. Because there is no consensus against the change. nableezy - 20:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Are you saying I "had what I want in place" and I was trying to "block changes"?—S Marshall T/C 20:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, of course not, sorry if that was unclear. I am not accusing you as closer of anything, but what I am saying is that when users feel they have their position in place as the status quo that they can, and often will, filibuster discussions to the point of aiming to prevail by no consensus. And since this was continuing to draw in more participation, that process should have been allowed to continue so that a consensus could form even with the volume from the people who really really care about the issue. nableezy - 20:34, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- You can't filibuster an RFC. !Voting and walking away still counts in the end judgement and adds no more time to the process. RFCs are timesinks and should only be used sparingly, which is why WP:RFCBEFORE "
RfCs are time consuming, and editor time is valuable
". If anyone does decide to open a new RFC right now, it would be disruptive in the extreme. Those that care about the article and the subject are likely to have had it on their watchlist ahave had ample opportunity to comment on it in the previous 30 days. - SchroCat (talk) 20:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)- Yes you certainly can, and Id say as a rough definition that making 20 out of the 115 comments in a discussion qualifies. Add to it the *involved* support of a no consensus close here because, surprise, that results in your (minority) position prevailing, and Id say that is actually a solid example. Besides, the whole point of an RFC is to get outside perspectives, presumably the reason an RFC is opened is because the people who do care about the article and the subject are likely to have had it on their watchlist have not come to a consensus locally and so they seek out more views from the wider community to find what consensus may be. And for the record, I probably would have voted no infobox. nableezy - 20:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, you can't: filibustering is about extending or prolonging a discussion to stop other people getting their argument in.This is not the case with an RFC. If someone is replying to a point, it doesn't stop anyone (or 5 or 10 people) from !voting at the same time.Just a little correction: I did not make 20 comments in the !vote section. I made about 15 comments to the that section (not the discussion section), and that is less than at least one editor who was vocal in his support for an IB, so if you want to make something of it, we cancelled each other out. And, as a reminder, "no consensus" for a change is an entirely acceptable and common end to an RFC. - SchroCat (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, filibustering is about talking so much that no change happens. Anyway, I think this should be reopened and more input sought out. nableezy - 21:01, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Filibustering is about extending a discussion to stop others talking (or at least it was when I did my politics degree - maybe its definition has changed considerably in the meantime). And it's not possible at RFC because one person commenting doesn't stop a hundred others from adding their input. It's a false parallel. If you think I've tried to extend the discussion, you've missed the point, but perhaps the others who commented multiple times (including at least one who commented more than me), may have had a different idea, but you'll have to ask them. - SchroCat (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, when people see a clusterfuck of a discussion they will stay away. Which is one of the reasons why people turn them into clusterfucks. Hey look, its happening here. nableezy - 21:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed it possibly is, but at the RFC (as with elsewhere) it takes more than one to tango - and this is supposed to be a discussion, not a vote, as is an RfC. I'm not going to get into a finger pointing game, but you should count up comments made by people, if you want to try and have a go at me for something: in the !vote section, one IB supporter made 16 comments; I made 15 (yes, I acknowledge that's too many); a second IB supporter made 14. I don't think they were filibustering any more than I was, and I don't think they were trying to turn it into a clusterfuck any more than I was. I do, however, resent your implication that I tried to turn it into a clusterfuck, or I did so as part of some malicious gameplan. Neither of those are true, and you should strike the implication. - SchroCat (talk) 21:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Is "Clusterfuck" one of those bird names they're trying to change? Randy Kryn (talk) 03:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed it possibly is, but at the RFC (as with elsewhere) it takes more than one to tango - and this is supposed to be a discussion, not a vote, as is an RfC. I'm not going to get into a finger pointing game, but you should count up comments made by people, if you want to try and have a go at me for something: in the !vote section, one IB supporter made 16 comments; I made 15 (yes, I acknowledge that's too many); a second IB supporter made 14. I don't think they were filibustering any more than I was, and I don't think they were trying to turn it into a clusterfuck any more than I was. I do, however, resent your implication that I tried to turn it into a clusterfuck, or I did so as part of some malicious gameplan. Neither of those are true, and you should strike the implication. - SchroCat (talk) 21:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, when people see a clusterfuck of a discussion they will stay away. Which is one of the reasons why people turn them into clusterfucks. Hey look, its happening here. nableezy - 21:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Filibustering is about extending a discussion to stop others talking (or at least it was when I did my politics degree - maybe its definition has changed considerably in the meantime). And it's not possible at RFC because one person commenting doesn't stop a hundred others from adding their input. It's a false parallel. If you think I've tried to extend the discussion, you've missed the point, but perhaps the others who commented multiple times (including at least one who commented more than me), may have had a different idea, but you'll have to ask them. - SchroCat (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, filibustering is about talking so much that no change happens. Anyway, I think this should be reopened and more input sought out. nableezy - 21:01, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, you can't: filibustering is about extending or prolonging a discussion to stop other people getting their argument in.This is not the case with an RFC. If someone is replying to a point, it doesn't stop anyone (or 5 or 10 people) from !voting at the same time.Just a little correction: I did not make 20 comments in the !vote section. I made about 15 comments to the that section (not the discussion section), and that is less than at least one editor who was vocal in his support for an IB, so if you want to make something of it, we cancelled each other out. And, as a reminder, "no consensus" for a change is an entirely acceptable and common end to an RFC. - SchroCat (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes you certainly can, and Id say as a rough definition that making 20 out of the 115 comments in a discussion qualifies. Add to it the *involved* support of a no consensus close here because, surprise, that results in your (minority) position prevailing, and Id say that is actually a solid example. Besides, the whole point of an RFC is to get outside perspectives, presumably the reason an RFC is opened is because the people who do care about the article and the subject are likely to have had it on their watchlist have not come to a consensus locally and so they seek out more views from the wider community to find what consensus may be. And for the record, I probably would have voted no infobox. nableezy - 20:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- You can't filibuster an RFC. !Voting and walking away still counts in the end judgement and adds no more time to the process. RFCs are timesinks and should only be used sparingly, which is why WP:RFCBEFORE "
- No, of course not, sorry if that was unclear. I am not accusing you as closer of anything, but what I am saying is that when users feel they have their position in place as the status quo that they can, and often will, filibuster discussions to the point of aiming to prevail by no consensus. And since this was continuing to draw in more participation, that process should have been allowed to continue so that a consensus could form even with the volume from the people who really really care about the issue. nableezy - 20:34, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Are you saying I "had what I want in place" and I was trying to "block changes"?—S Marshall T/C 20:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Why do we have to draw a line under it? That is how filibustering works, when you have what you want in place you can block changes by "no consensus". If anything, your close opens the door to a brand new rehashing of the same discussion, because you didnt draw a line under it, you left it unresolved. If the discussion is continuing to get new input it should be allowed to continue. Because right now, the way I see it, anybody is totally justified in opening a brand new RFC on the exact same question. Because there is no consensus against the change. nableezy - 20:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see a strong reason to reverse this closure. S Marshall is correct in that there isn't a clear-cut policy on whether an article should have an infobox; as such, infobox discussions are essentially a headcount, and there isn't a good reason to give "I don't want this article to have an infobox" less weight than a more long-winded argument. Under the circumstances 18/31 is on the border between weak consensus and none, and I cannot fault a finding of no consensus. Aside; this is why the infobox CTOP designation should remain in force. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:06, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry to "badger opposes", but I'd like to respond to
there isn't a good reason to give "I don't want this article to have an infobox" less weight than a more long-winded argument
. While it's truethere isn't a clear-cut policy on whether an article should have an infobox
, there is also no clear-cut policy on whether a stand-alone article should exist. WP:N is a guideline. There isn't a clear-cut policy on when a close should be overturned. WP:CLOSECHALLENGE is an information page. There isn't a clear-cut policy on when to use WP:IAR, which is probably the least clear-cut of all policies. But in all these situations, we weigh votes based on strength of arguments. Why shouldn't we weigh votes based on the strength of arguments in infobox discussions? - If there were a clear-cut policy, we wouldn't need to consider strength of arguments at all, because the policy would be clear, and all we'd have to do is apply it. Strength of arguments is exactly what we need to look at when we're talking about anything that doesn't have a clear-cut policy. It makes no sense to me that we should approach it as: (a) if there is a policy, apply it, or (b) if there is no policy, take a headcount. That seems to be the very opposite of WP:NOTAVOTE.
- I submit that there are good arguments for, and against, having an infobox, and editors make such arguments in every infobox RFC (though not every editor), and you can see examples on both sides in the RFC at issue here.
- On the other hand, if we accept that
infobox discussions are essentially a headcount
, why is 18/31, 58%,on the border
? Is "consensus" 60%? Why not 51%? Is that in any clear-cut policy, guideline, info page, or anything? - Finally, if we accept that it was
on the border between weak consensus and none
, and there were new votes coming in daily, isn't that exactly the reason to leave the RFC open, because it's on the border, so a few more votes could make a difference, one way or the other? Levivich (talk) 03:53, 3 November 2023 (UTC)- Levivich, with respect, you're splitting hairs between policy narrowly construed in Category:Wikipedia policies, and policy broadly construed, meaning documented principles. We have documented policies and guidelines about notability. On infoboxes, we don't. We therefore have no basis to weigh votes besides setting aside entirely off-topic or ad hominem commentary: strength of argument is based on policy, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. And you're quite wrong that clear guidelines obviate the need for discussion; we have tons of guidelines about notability, yet AfDs remain contentious.
- As to the timing issue that BK49 raises below (I appreciate the note, Barkeep, I agree it's rare for us to disagree) I wouldn't necessarily object to this RfC being open for longer, but I don't see a strong reason to extend it purely on the basis that comments were still coming in. Infoboxes are contentious on Wikipedia, and contentious topics draw attention, especially if the RfCs are advertised widely long after they've begun. If we left the average AMPOL RfC open until comments stopped coming, we'd never close most of them. TL;DR: after the 30-day timeframe has long lapsed, I don't see a handful of new comments being enough to overturn an RfC. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:37, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
strength of argument is based on policy
I think it can also be based on principles, practice, and/or logic. I don't think the three options are WP:PAGs, off-topic, or ad hominem. (And I'd suggest our notability guidelines, though voluminous, are not clear.) Levivich (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry to "badger opposes", but I'd like to respond to
- Rare is when I find myself so disagreeing with Vanamonde but this is such a case. I think this this was closed too soon. WP:RFCEND says
An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be.
and it later saysConversely, whenever additional comments are still wanted after 30 days...
so our RFC information clearly contemplates situations where longer than 30 days would be an appropriate length. With the post to the Village Pump it was no longer clear that consensus wouldn't be achieved and so leaving it open for a few more days to see if that was the case, or not, would have been appropriate. However, given that momentum behind that will have evaporated by the time this thread reaches conclusion, I think this harm can't be cured. But that doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't have been closed at that time in my opinion. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)- I think we absolutely do contemplate situations where longer than 30 days is appropriate. For example, where a new source emerges during the discussion, or a sudden news event affects the topic we're discussing; or where it's one of the difficult matters that demands a panel close. But an infobox dispute? I disagree that that's the kind of situation envisaged.I would not want it to become custom and practice that we're not allowed to close an RfC if it's recently been cross-posted to another venue. I feel that would have negative consequences.I'm becoming concerned that we as a community might be losing our institutional memory of the infobox wars of a decade ago.—S Marshall T/C 23:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- it's precisely because I haven't forgotten that I think you made a mistake being impatient because now the war will continue there. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- If it continues it will be disruptive and can be dealt with as such. I know you've made at least one difficult close in the past on this matter and have a better awareness of the arguments than many, so are in a good position to take a measured approach looking both forward and back. - SchroCat (talk) 23:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Impatient?—S Marshall T/C 23:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- it's precisely because I haven't forgotten that I think you made a mistake being impatient because now the war will continue there. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think we absolutely do contemplate situations where longer than 30 days is appropriate. For example, where a new source emerges during the discussion, or a sudden news event affects the topic we're discussing; or where it's one of the difficult matters that demands a panel close. But an infobox dispute? I disagree that that's the kind of situation envisaged.I would not want it to become custom and practice that we're not allowed to close an RfC if it's recently been cross-posted to another venue. I feel that would have negative consequences.I'm becoming concerned that we as a community might be losing our institutional memory of the infobox wars of a decade ago.—S Marshall T/C 23:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse (involved) - Closing discussions is difficult enough and rehashing this does little to help anyone. My comment today wasn't to overturn or challenge this close but to ask the closer to remove the part of the close that admonished me for extending the RFC. I didn't violate any rules by extending the RFC and per WP:RFC it's perfectly reasonable thing to do to find consensus. Plus, it was working to get more comments. Most of the RFC infobox discussions over the past year have ended in consensus inclusions. The few that have not have been close and they suffered from the type of "flood the zone" commentary from both sides that was wisely observed by nableezy. The wall of text responses in the survey do little to change minds and only discourage others to comment. This particular RFC appeared to be contentious as soon as it started. The exact same scenario is playing out in a similar RFC that started a couple of days ago. I would encourage the participants on both sides to dial it back. If you are unable to find common ground speak your piece and move on. Thanks and happy editing. Nemov (talk) 23:11, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- (Uninvolved) I agree with Barkeep, who already wrote out a bunch of words, so I'll keep it simple. When new editors are continuing to join an RFC it's not ripe yet. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:20, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Fwiw, the exact opposite happened here on James Joyce and complaints were made when more !votes trickled in before the 30 day period expired. Victoria (tk) 23:28, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse close (involved), the text of the close goes in-depth on the closer's reasoning. Seems like a fair and well described close. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:37, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse closure - The RFC was opened for over a month & it was time for closure. GoodDay (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Bad Close (uninvolved) Having an absolutist fixed set time view as the closer suggests is a no bureaucracy violation, and as comments were still coming in, the close rightfully should have been forestalled. Moreover, the stated rationale for the jump to close makes little sense, because that RfC was taking basically no effort by the community as a whole, and it takes very little effort and mere minutes to leave a comment there. It is neither a complicated, nor unfamiliar matter for the community to deal with, and is in total a small content editing decision. So, this close wrongfully interfered with community consensus gathering by cutting it off while the community was commenting. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:25, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: In the RfC I suggested the article would benefit from an infobox. The closure went against my suggestion. But I'd find it truly pathetic were I to offer an opinion here! The two sides are already split along the lines they chose in the RfC. The Ayes to the infobox find the closure premature or otherwise problematic; the Nays find nothing wrong with it. I'd suggest, although I suspect this is how it's going to play out anyway, that only the opinions of uninvolved editors should be taken into account. Take care, all. -The Gnome (talk) 17:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse closure In the last two years, of the 14 infobox RfCs I've reviewed (that's all that I'm aware of), only 2 have failed to find consensus against inclusion, and those two look far more similar to this discussion than any of the ones which succeeded. The 2013 ArbCom decision states that editors should "avoid turning discussions about a single article's infobox into a discussion about infoboxes in general" and MOS:INFOBOXUSE makes clear that the discussion regarding infobox inclusion or exclusion is a page-specific content decision. Since 2021 closers of these discussions have generally not weighed general comments highly, with more weight given to arguments which focus on the specific attributes of the infobox proposed based on the article state and information available at the time (see Ian Flemming for an overview of this argument and Calude Debussy for a no-consensus example of its application). The arguments against in this RfC generally focused on the specific state of the article and proposal: there wouldn't be much information in the infobox and the little information there would be is found in the first sentence. The comments in favor of an infobox were rather general, and the late-breaking supports especially focused on how infoboxes were generally useful to readers rather than how this one helped this article specifically. Those kinds of comments are not weighed highly. We weren't having a referendum on whether infoboxes are generally useful, so keeping it open longer for more comments which don't address the main oppose argument doesn't help form consensus. Closing it after the usual 30 days and in line with precedent on infobox discussions is perfectly acceptable so I see no reason to overturn. On the merits, it adequately sums up the discussion and correctly interprets it through the lens of existing policy, so I see no reason to overturn on those grounds either. — Wug·a·po·des 22:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse closure Closure was reasonable. Additional push for input toward the end of the traditional 30 days probably wasn't ideal and additional input that came in because of it shouldn't be sufficient to hold off closure--otherwise it makes RfCs too easy to game. But most importantly, it seems very unlikely that the proposal was going to get consensus. And for the record, given control of the issue, I'd have included the infobox, so the outcome isn't how I'd have !voted, but the close is how I'd have closed. 04:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hobit (talk • contribs)
- Endorse closure Marshall's close was nuanced, analytical, policy-based and ultimately a fair assessment of consensus. I took no part in the discussion. ——Serial 13:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse close - I am an advocate for infoboxes and I personally think that a majority of articles, longer than a few sentences, will have one sooner or later. It's the trend and with good reason, although I agree there is an issue with the content of infoboxes they do serve a purpose for readers that need quick info neatly compiled in a list and don't want to parse through an article to find it. However, one size does not fit all, also, one size does not fit all. I'm endorsing the close partly because there was clearly no consensus in this case, and this case is all that need be considered. As a side note, these discussions always turn into this because one side or the other refuses to acknowledge their contribution to it's lingering negative affects. The incivility in these discussions exhibited by both sides only serve to discredit both sides. There is no winner whether the outcome benefits one side or the other. I admire, respect and truly care about many of the editors involved that I have been fortunate to get to know through discussions and all involved are part of my community. I wish we could have infobox discussions where we genuinely discussed the article at hand and didn't resort to drudging up past block history or staunchly clutching to the same reasons for or against infoboxes. If there was less immediate vitriol more editors might be inclined to get involved with reasoned discussion. --ARoseWolf 15:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Principles of timing discussion closes
I've been trying to extract the principles that underlie Levivich's, Nableezy's and Barkeep's dissents here, and I think their basic position is that consensus is better than no consensus. (Am I being fair?) They're saying I should have waited to close because consensus might have formed, and if I understand them right, then I actually disagree with them at a philosophical level. On a philosophical level, I think that where there isn't a consensus, we shouldn't try to make one happen. We certainly shouldn't wait for a moment when consensus appears and then pounce. I think that we should close the discussions before us when they're eligible to be closed and participants who want them closed, and if there isn't a consensus there at that time, then as a matter of principle we should close it then and there as "no consensus". If I'm wrong -- if it's actually right to use timings to engineer or construct a marginal consensus out of a no-consensus outcome -- then we need to write that up and put it in Wikipedia:Closing discussions because it's nowhere to be found there!—S Marshall T/C 14:51, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- It is on that page, WP:WHENCLOSE, last two bullets. In this case, second bullet point, discussion was not slowing down, it was picking up (8 new participants in the four days prior to the close, including one on the day of, and one the day before), and, third bullet point, further discussion would have been useful because it was trending towards, not away, from consensus (the majority in favor over the course of those 4 days got larger, 5/8 is 62.5% in favor, and the discussion in tots ending up at 58% in favor at the time of close, which is either consensus, or close to it, depending on your view).
- Continued new participation + further participation would make a difference = keep it open, per WHENCLOSE. Levivich (talk) 15:07, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but I think you're entirely missing my point.—S Marshall T/C 15:42, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed, I am. I'm also missing Vanamonde's point about strength of arguments above. This seems clear to me for the reasons I've said above. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Levivich (talk) 15:47, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but I think you're entirely missing my point.—S Marshall T/C 15:42, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Its if there is a chance of a consensus developing it is better to let that happen than to close it on some timeline, and if there are people still coming in to comment then there is still a chance of a consensus developing. I dont really care which way this goes tbh, I have zero interest in the infobox wars or the "content creators" vs the "wikignomes" or any of the other battle lines that appear to exist here. But just on a process question, if things are looking like more time will potentially lead to a consensus, then it is better to allow that to happen than to close it as no consensus. Its why we relist things. nableezy - 16:20, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Okay, let me help you with that. We agree that the key paragraphs are the last two bullets of WP:WHENCLOSE. They read:
- When the discussion is stable: The more contentious the subject, the longer this may take. Two signs of achieving this state are the same editors repeating themselves, and the rate of other editors joining the conversation is slowing.
- When further contributions are unlikely to be helpful: If additional comments, even weeks or months later, might be helpful, then don't close the conversation. Most conversations do not need to be closed. On the other hand, when further responses are likely to result in little more than wasting everyone's time by repeating the same widely held view, then it should be closed sooner rather than later. In between, wait to see whether enough information and analysis has been presented to make the outcome (including an outcome that editors do not agree) clear.
You understand that to mean I should have left the discussion open.
Well, on the first of those bullets, we haven't reached the point where the rate of other editors joining the conversation is slowing, but we've certainly got to the point where the same editors are repeating themselves. There's an opportunity for a sysop to consider whether or how to manage the conflict between SchroCat and Dronebogus.
On the second, the further contributions are definitely unhelpful. Infobox decisions are straight up votes. I can tell that you're amazed and horrified by this fact, but it's how it is. Arbcom has specifically asked the community to come up with a guideline or at least a set of principles about infoboxes but after the last lot of infobox wars, nobody had the stomach to start the RfC. Everyone was either sick of it or topic banned.
I don't get why I should care that it was "trending towards consensus". It's not my job to find a consensus. It's my job to read, understand, think, and decide if there's a consensus or not. I make that determination at the time.—S Marshall T/C 16:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think both SchroCat and Dronebogus should have been formally warned for their suboptimal behavior in that discussion. In fact I started to fill out the paperwork to do so but decided I wouldn't have had the time to defend the action in the following days so I didn't take that action. I was getting ready to take SchroCat to AE for continuing that less than optimal behavior in this discussion but then he left me a friendly and productive talk page message and so I decided to try responding there in a softer approach. But that sub-optimal behavior doesn't change that that new and productive comments were being left - it is my opinion that the comments from October 30th on were collectively quite productive. I think this idea that we need 30 days to find consensus was a bad mindset for you to have had when approaching this close. Consensus can, and often is, found faster than 30 days even in an RFC and there are times - and this is one - where consensus might take longer than 30 days to find. The goal of an RfC is to gauge what the community thinks about a specific issue not to have a time limited discussion. Hopefully, there consensus can be found. If it can't it should be closed as such, but yes you shouldn't prioritiize some 30 day deadline over the finding of consensus, which is exactly what the information pages tell you to do. I think you misapplied those principles when doing this close and sadly that misapplication has caused a harm that we can't easily fix just by reopening. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:51, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- ^ I agree with this, and would add: it should matter that it was "trending towards consensus" because any closer's job, first and foremost, is to not get in the way of consensus by closing too soon--exactly what WHENCLOSE says.
- I don't really care about this infobox or infoboxes in general, either, but what I do care about is that individual editors do not singlehandedly shut down productive discussions by other editors. I care that closers don't start closing things just because 30 days have passed when new participants are joining the conversation. If we don't wait for discussions to run through before closing them, we short-circuit the consensus-building process. This is especially true when the close is "no consensus" -- what is the point of closing a discussion as "no consensus" if it's still ongoing? What good does that gain? There is a perception amongst some that stopping discussion is a good thing. I disagree, strongly. Levivich (talk) 17:00, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Building off what Levivich says here, one thing I wish more closers would do is distinguish between "no consensus" and "consensus against". In any number of RfCs there is a consensus against something which is absolutely as valuable to know as if there is consensus for something but it's instead closed as "no consensus". But that's a periphery concern to the facts of this case where the outcomes were realistically going to be either consensus for or no consensus and a couple days more of participation could, and should, have let us know which was the true opinion of the community. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- If the community agrees with you and Levivich, then what edit would we make to Wikipedia:Closing discussions to summarize these points?—S Marshall T/C 17:25, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- None. I think you didn't properly apply what is already there in WP:WHENCLOSE: it was too soon, it wasn't stable, and further contributions were likely to be helpful. If the community agrees that the timing wasn't correct - and I will note that of the editors discussing that point a significant number of editors seem to agree, with Vanamonde offering the most strident defense of timing as opposed to the overall content of the close which I don't object to - I hope the outcome of this will be for you to factor that feedback into your future decisions about when you close a discussion. Of course Levivich has already said the outcome he wants - for the discussion to be reopened. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:36, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Because I think it's clear, my answer is also "none," but I'd put the question back to you, S Marshall: what words, had they been written at WP:Closing discussions, would have caused you to conclude "not yet time to close" for this particular RFC on Nov 2? Personally, I generally don't think bright-line rules are helpful, so I wouldn't be in favor of anything like "X days with no new comments," and I think the current description on the page is clear enough, but not everyone agrees with that, so perhaps there is some other/additional language that would clarify it, that isn't a bright-line rule. Levivich (talk) 17:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it's surprising that you'd to ask me to write the words that justify your view when I don't agree with you... but okay, let's try it.Straight votes: In rare cases, the community needs to make a decision about which no policies or guidelines are germane. These tend to be aesthetic judgments, such as which of two photographs to use, or whether the article should have an infobox. Before deciding to treat a discussion as a straight vote, the closer should make sure that nobody has cited a germane policy or guideline in the discussion, and should then use their personal knowledge and searches to make sure that no policy or guideline is germane. Where the matter is a straight vote, try to avoid a "no consensus" outcome. You should instead leave the discussion unclosed until the !votes swing one way or the other.—S Marshall T/C 18:32, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- If the community agrees with you and Levivich, then what edit would we make to Wikipedia:Closing discussions to summarize these points?—S Marshall T/C 17:25, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Building off what Levivich says here, one thing I wish more closers would do is distinguish between "no consensus" and "consensus against". In any number of RfCs there is a consensus against something which is absolutely as valuable to know as if there is consensus for something but it's instead closed as "no consensus". But that's a periphery concern to the facts of this case where the outcomes were realistically going to be either consensus for or no consensus and a couple days more of participation could, and should, have let us know which was the true opinion of the community. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Break: "Manage the conflict"
- The Gnome, I've inserted a break here as this is a separate topic from the RFC close, which warrants further examination. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:31, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- S Marshall|, you wrote "There's an opportunity for a sysop to consider whether or how to manage the conflict between SchroCat and Dronebogus." I wouldn't know about such an opportunity. What I do know is that the recommendation in WP:BLUDGEON is treated with a lot of indifference by everyone, including administrators. When a discussion develops into a conflict, then, more often than not, the reason is that one or more contributors are permitted to attempt and force their point of view by the sheer volume of their comments. For instance, SchroCat was twice warned they're all over RfC, bludgeoning the discussion, once by yours truly, but the admonition to allow others to contribute was ignored. (Schrocat even came to my talk page to accuse me of "incivility".) I strongly believe that the discussion would have proceeded much better, irrespective of conclusion, if the noise was forced down. -The Gnome (talk) 14:46, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- You made only one less comment that me in the !vote section, including the disgusting comment "The hatred against infoboxes per se, however, exhibited openly by some contributors, as I've witnessed in the past, is amusing, though it verges on the pathological". That was followed up by Dronebogus's comments "SchroCat, I agree your obsessiveness here is pathological and disruptive" and "SchroCat is acting obsessive, hypocritical, and disruptive". And I thought Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility in infobox discussions was supposed to mean something. - SchroCat (talk) 15:12, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I did write that. I'm not the civility police: as a discussion closer, I do content, not conduct. All I do is determine what the community thinks about something and write it up. Anyone can see that a conflict between SchroCat and Dronebogus exists but that's conduct. It's for uninvolved sysops to determine the rights and wrongs, i.e., not me.Having said that, the conflict touches on my role because of how it affects discourse. Infoboxes are a designated contentious topic and they generate one heck of a lot of RfCs, so if two prolific editors are often arguing about infoboxes, then it's in the best interests of the encyclopaedia for that conflict to be managed.You've mentioned WP:BLUDGEON and measured it in terms of the number of comments someone writes in a discussion. I don't measure it in those terms, though. Consensus-seeking editors talk to each other. They reply to each other's points. Each tries to understand the other's position and address their arguments and that's awesome and it's what a request for comment is for. And some editors are passionate about their subject, which is one of the things about Wikipedians that I find most endearing. I'm a discussion closer because I rather enjoy reading such conversations. And let's remember that WP:BLUDGEON isn't a policy or guideline, although it is certainly widely cited.I'm saying that the number of contributions someone makes to a discussion isn't a problem. Where editors talk about each other and restate their own positions while ignoring the other's points, that's the problem.—S Marshall T/C 17:07, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- You made only one less comment that me in the !vote section, including the disgusting comment "The hatred against infoboxes per se, however, exhibited openly by some contributors, as I've witnessed in the past, is amusing, though it verges on the pathological". That was followed up by Dronebogus's comments "SchroCat, I agree your obsessiveness here is pathological and disruptive" and "SchroCat is acting obsessive, hypocritical, and disruptive". And I thought Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility in infobox discussions was supposed to mean something. - SchroCat (talk) 15:12, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed, that was the case in that discussion, i.e. editors talking about each other and restating their own positions time and again, as in parallel monologues. The epithets flew! The above missive by Schrocat is indicative of the discussion's tone - and still believes the comment was about them, which would be funny under other circumstances.
Your point about passion in Wikipedia and extensive discussions finds me in agreement, the latter of course only if long discussions are constructive and educational. The whole kerfuffle rendered an admin's intervention critical, in my opinion. (And I don't think being a "closer" affects such an intervention.) Finally, WP:BLUDGEON is a very useful recommendation, which is why, as you also note, is so often invoked. In any case, I simply wanted to submit this remark for potentially a future consideration. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 08:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed, that was the case in that discussion, i.e. editors talking about each other and restating their own positions time and again, as in parallel monologues. The epithets flew! The above missive by Schrocat is indicative of the discussion's tone - and still believes the comment was about them, which would be funny under other circumstances.
I took the time yesterday to step back through the diffs of this dispute (because it's always instructive to see how something unfolded in real time, which can give a better impression than just reading what remains on the page).
The dispute began as the article was featured on the main page – a high activity, high stress day for any FA – with the first callous arrogant post (followed rapid fire by someone who should know better than to launch such a proposal on TFA day). The misrepresentations of what happened at this article (in a recurring pattern [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] ), the pretentions of innocence on this page, and the lack of adminning of issues that would be sanctionable even without two arbcases and a contentious topic designation, are astonishing. That the goading, failure to confine comments to the specific merits of an infobox on this specific article, and doubling-down without striking of personal attacks (sanctionable even without CTOP) have not been adminned – and the issue has been reduced to the idea of a "conflict between SchroCat and Dronebogus" – does serious disservice to all that actually happened here. Clearly unacceptable personal attacks,[6] [7] [8] only partially struck,[9] and goading that precipitated those personal attacks,[10] [11] [12] haven't been adminned in spite of CTOP restrictions in place, and there is a one-sided representation on this page of who did what to lead to that.
S Marshall, as a non-admin, did their job in closing the RFC, which was gamed and had no consensus before or after the inappropiate notification, and in which one person followed arbcom guidance on how to discuss merits of infobox inclusion while others didn't (strength of argument was clearly in play, and new feedback was adding more heat than light); S Marshall's job was not to admin behavioral issues, and those who should do that, haven't. On strength of arguments, those against the infobox generally stayed on the topic of this particular article and presented clear reasoning or questions towards seeking consensus without invoking the infobox dispute generally (samples: [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19]), while those in favor flaunted the ARBINFOBOX2 reminder to discuss the merits at this article, rather than infoboxes in general, or gave no reasoning at all, or wouldn't engage consensus-seeking questions (samples [20], [21], [22], [23]). SchroCat's intemperate remarks were all struck. There was an edit war that, while unfortunate, raises valid points about the context in which these RFCs have been presented, and how ARBINFO2 has not been enforced by adminning. Outright unacceptable personal attacks (by any definition of civility, "obsessive and pathological") -- goaded by the initial use of the word pathological -- were only partially struck after two independent editors called them out; that remains on the page for every admin who has looked thus far to ignore. A frequent bludgeoner (The Gnome) professes innocence and blames another for bludgeoning-- of which there is no evidence for weeks into the dispute. SchroCat, a word of advice: you must stop taking the bait. You were clearly baited, yet if you hadn't taken the bait, we'd probably see sanctions in place today against a couple of other editors in the dispute.
What doesn't remain on the talk page is how the issue began, pre-RFC, on TFA day, now in archives. Why is someone who can call another editor "obsessive and pathological", in a CTOP area subject to civility restrictions, and then only partially strike that, still allowed to edit in the Infobox topic area? Must we have a third arbcase to examine why the recurring behaviors are being ignored? The bludgeoning came from one who projects innocence, and the blatant personal attacks haven't even been discussed on this page, except to be ignored and labeled as the "above missive by Schrocat" followed by a smiley emoticon when referencing a blatant personal attack (more goading); the presentation of this dispute on this page is not even-handed, leading me to wonder if a third arbcase will be needed to understand why that is happening and to deal with the recurring behaviors, which are a repeat of ARBINFOBOX1. Admins: deal with the misbehavors, and watch the Infobox problem go away. The case before us is not about bludgeoning; it's about blatant flaunting of WP:ARBINFOBOX2 by a very small group of editors.
I suggest a temporary halt to infobox RFCs by involved individuals until these behaviors can be examined before arbcom. I don't see how re-opening this RFC, without dealing first with the misbehaviors, will lead to any different outcome. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:58, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Dronebogus noticed of this discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- And nothing of Tim Riley’s “civil incivility” antics here, with remarks about a “kampfpanzer” directed at a German editor notable for her politeness, “infobox zealots” and “infobox absolutists”? Nothing about WP:OWNership being practiced and denied by editors who vehemently oppose infoboxes on certain articles? Nothing about SchroCat’s laundry list of incivility blocks? About the fact that he basically called me stupid multiple times here and here? Yet everything about civil editors offering opinions you think are invalid. Dronebogus (talk) 22:36, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- You are responsible for your own behavior regardless of the actions of others. With no acknowledgement of the problems with your own editing, only more digging in, I see more evidence that we need a new arbcase, with removal of those individuals extending ARBINFOBOX1 and ARBINFOBOX2 from the infobox RFC "battlefield" that has been created, including those doing it "politely" and surreptitiously by proxy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:51, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I have admitted my behavior was unbecoming and even offered an apology. I would like to see a similar admission of wrong from the other parties. Dronebogus (talk) 22:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Dronebogus, I see. I wasn't aware that discussion had continued after it was closed. I'm happy to see your partial acknowledgement, and sorry to hear of your editing difficulties. I wonder if you see that the discussion might have proceeded differently had you fully retracted all three personal attacks on the original RFC? Or that you appear unaware or ungrateful that you escaped being blocked for those attacks, when you throw up here SchroCat's block log? Would you contemplate -- to reduce your stress and that caused on others -- removing yourself voluntarily from the Infobox RFC campaign for at least a year or two, and removing yourself from the possibility of being exposed to "polite" requests to proxy for other individuals who might not be having the best effect on your editing experience? [24] [25] I suspect that if you focus elsewhere for a while, you will find that a better experience, and ARBINFOBOX3 can be entirely avoided, because there are so very very few editors furthering this ongoing infobox discord. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt notified of this discussion. [26] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:32, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Have to think about it Dronebogus (talk) 23:47, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Dronebogus Thanks for considering it; sometimes things can look so different a few years down the road. Be well, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Dronebogus, I see. I wasn't aware that discussion had continued after it was closed. I'm happy to see your partial acknowledgement, and sorry to hear of your editing difficulties. I wonder if you see that the discussion might have proceeded differently had you fully retracted all three personal attacks on the original RFC? Or that you appear unaware or ungrateful that you escaped being blocked for those attacks, when you throw up here SchroCat's block log? Would you contemplate -- to reduce your stress and that caused on others -- removing yourself voluntarily from the Infobox RFC campaign for at least a year or two, and removing yourself from the possibility of being exposed to "polite" requests to proxy for other individuals who might not be having the best effect on your editing experience? [24] [25] I suspect that if you focus elsewhere for a while, you will find that a better experience, and ARBINFOBOX3 can be entirely avoided, because there are so very very few editors furthering this ongoing infobox discord. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I have admitted my behavior was unbecoming and even offered an apology. I would like to see a similar admission of wrong from the other parties. Dronebogus (talk) 22:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- You are responsible for your own behavior regardless of the actions of others. With no acknowledgement of the problems with your own editing, only more digging in, I see more evidence that we need a new arbcase, with removal of those individuals extending ARBINFOBOX1 and ARBINFOBOX2 from the infobox RFC "battlefield" that has been created, including those doing it "politely" and surreptitiously by proxy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:51, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- And nothing of Tim Riley’s “civil incivility” antics here, with remarks about a “kampfpanzer” directed at a German editor notable for her politeness, “infobox zealots” and “infobox absolutists”? Nothing about WP:OWNership being practiced and denied by editors who vehemently oppose infoboxes on certain articles? Nothing about SchroCat’s laundry list of incivility blocks? About the fact that he basically called me stupid multiple times here and here? Yet everything about civil editors offering opinions you think are invalid. Dronebogus (talk) 22:36, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict twice, with the new section below, and then also with the notification above: I compiled the diffs before the notification.)
- Diffs then. Two diffs preceding the collection above.
- 02:53 Infobox added by User:Valentinejoesmith
- 11:50 Infobox reverted by SchroCat, edit summary "Let's just go back to the PR/FAC version - the talk page awaits if people disagree" - I disagreed, and followed this invitation, and found that Dronebogus had reacted to it before me. Those two reactions to the revert of an infobox are the first two diffs above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:37, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt I see you referred to above as someone who is "notable for your politeness". As you have dealt with TFA before, and know it can at times turn stressful, do you think it "polite" to launch an infobox proposal-- knowing the likelihood of it turning acrimonious-- on TFA day? And I'm also curious to know if you think you have been acting in the best interests of Dronebogus, who seems to trust you and have taken guidance from you in these infobox matters. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:52, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's past midnight here. I launched nothing. I was provoked by the edit summary of the revert, admitted. Had the revert come with some good reasoning, I'd probably remained silent. Just imagine the revert had not happened ... - I saw a user who was new to me stepping into the kafkaesque field around infoboxes of which they were possibly not aware, and helping them was my intention. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Allrighty; perhaps we have different definitions of "polite". I wouldn't do that to a fellow TFA participant; I'd instead mention to everyone else that it would be best to hold off on such a discussion until after the article is off the mainpage. My concern that you should remain under infobox sanction remains, especially now having seen the influence exerted on Dronebogus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t like the way you’re casting Gerda as a bad influence and enabler because she doesn’t agree with the status quo, which I think she and I both agree is unfair and not reflective of broader community mores. My incivility is the real issue and entirely my fault. Dronebogus (talk) 01:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for acknowledging that, but I think there are bad behaviors being modeled throughout. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned is good reading; you have been engaging in sanctionable behaviors in infobox discussions supported by diffs months deep and miles long, and those behaviors seem to have been "politely" encouraged by Gerda, which did you no favors. Gerda Arendt, also, while we're here, maybe you can help me understand your statement that there's only a single-digit number of editors opposed to infoboxes? I'm curious about how that could be, considering the difficulty in finding consensus in discussions, and wondering if that might support my hypothesis that the problem is not so much with infoboxes per se, as the methods that have been used to advance them. If that's the case, it might mean that removing more quickly those editors who further disruption, or maintain lists for going after entire topic areas, or ask others to proxy for them, might solve the whole problem of disruption in this area. If there's really only a handful of editors who oppose, why then do we need to keep seeing the kind of disruption visited upon this RFC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes it would “solve” the problem by, essentially, systematically eliminating the loudest opposition. Not a good look when you’re complaining about “maintaining lists for going after entire topic areas”. I’ve already stated that most editors probably don’t have a problem with infoboxes, but the status quo is so aggressively entrenched that trying to change it inevitably means butting heads with those who passionately support it, which is both draining and leads to anyone who does so being labeled part of some violent radical infobox extremist cell. Dronebogus (talk) 02:38, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for acknowledging that, but I think there are bad behaviors being modeled throughout. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned is good reading; you have been engaging in sanctionable behaviors in infobox discussions supported by diffs months deep and miles long, and those behaviors seem to have been "politely" encouraged by Gerda, which did you no favors. Gerda Arendt, also, while we're here, maybe you can help me understand your statement that there's only a single-digit number of editors opposed to infoboxes? I'm curious about how that could be, considering the difficulty in finding consensus in discussions, and wondering if that might support my hypothesis that the problem is not so much with infoboxes per se, as the methods that have been used to advance them. If that's the case, it might mean that removing more quickly those editors who further disruption, or maintain lists for going after entire topic areas, or ask others to proxy for them, might solve the whole problem of disruption in this area. If there's really only a handful of editors who oppose, why then do we need to keep seeing the kind of disruption visited upon this RFC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t like the way you’re casting Gerda as a bad influence and enabler because she doesn’t agree with the status quo, which I think she and I both agree is unfair and not reflective of broader community mores. My incivility is the real issue and entirely my fault. Dronebogus (talk) 01:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Allrighty; perhaps we have different definitions of "polite". I wouldn't do that to a fellow TFA participant; I'd instead mention to everyone else that it would be best to hold off on such a discussion until after the article is off the mainpage. My concern that you should remain under infobox sanction remains, especially now having seen the influence exerted on Dronebogus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I trust her because she actually displays common sense here and is involved in a project that otherwise seems like an anti-infobox advocacy group. Dronebogus (talk) 00:03, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Dronebogus, We are all influenced by and known by the company we keep; your infobox involvement has only led to problems. For your consideration. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- And by "common sense", you mean "views that align to your own"? To me, you appear to be suggesting that those with whom you disagree on this subject, lack "common sense". Personal attacks extend to groups of people, remember that. CassiantoTalk 07:28, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's past midnight here. I launched nothing. I was provoked by the edit summary of the revert, admitted. Had the revert come with some good reasoning, I'd probably remained silent. Just imagine the revert had not happened ... - I saw a user who was new to me stepping into the kafkaesque field around infoboxes of which they were possibly not aware, and helping them was my intention. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt I see you referred to above as someone who is "notable for your politeness". As you have dealt with TFA before, and know it can at times turn stressful, do you think it "polite" to launch an infobox proposal-- knowing the likelihood of it turning acrimonious-- on TFA day? And I'm also curious to know if you think you have been acting in the best interests of Dronebogus, who seems to trust you and have taken guidance from you in these infobox matters. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:52, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Is there a better way to “manage the conflict”?
I think there’s a better way to tone down the infobox wars than dragging every regular who’s done something objectionable to ArbCom and instituting mass sanctions to “make an example of ‘em” and scare contributors into submission (because this is what it would be in practice, no matter how you frame it as “preventative”). I think two simple rules could be implemented: state your argument once and leave and only discuss content if a consensus to include has been formed. Because as discussed above there’s very little actual debate on individual merits— it’s largely an aesthetic preference with some philosophical components added in, and rarely is anyone interested in actually listening to the other side so much as stating the same thing they always say in these arguments over and over (yes that includes me, I feign no innocence). Dronebogus (talk) 23:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes; just stop conducting "infobox wars". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- They’re going to happen whether I’m involved or not. A simple solution is to stop them from becoming “wars” by making them straight consensus votes with no capacity for back-n-forth sniping. Dronebogus (talk) 23:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I doubt it. There's only three editors furthering the issue. But you can take me up on my offer, and then open the possibility of "I told you so" a few years down the road :) Be well, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with SandyGeorgia. The best way for an individual editor to deal with infobox wars is to decline to participate in those pointless, time wasting debates. Boycott all those debates which do nothing to improve the encyclopedia. Go write or expand an article instead. Cullen328 (talk) 00:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I could also argue there’s about the same number maintaining the status quo; the fact that most RfCs do, in fact, end up pro-infobox is telling. I’d rather the opposers just drop the issue and stop fighting against an emerging meta-consensus. Dronebogus (talk) 01:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Anyone can argue ad nauseum about anything. These debates are an utter waste of time for all concerned. Cullen328 (talk) 01:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- People act like suppressing infoboxes from certain articles is a free action because it’s the status quo, but it’s not— it has to be enforced by reverting any attempt at adding one and constantly explaining to new users on talk pages why x doesn’t have one. So the status quo is just as much of a waste of time on the whole. Dronebogus (talk) 02:41, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Clearly, you are unconvinced by my long held view that these debates are a complete and total waste of time. So go ahead, and waste your own time. Cullen328 (talk) 02:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- People act like suppressing infoboxes from certain articles is a free action because it’s the status quo, but it’s not— it has to be enforced by reverting any attempt at adding one and constantly explaining to new users on talk pages why x doesn’t have one. So the status quo is just as much of a waste of time on the whole. Dronebogus (talk) 02:41, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Anyone can argue ad nauseum about anything. These debates are an utter waste of time for all concerned. Cullen328 (talk) 01:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I doubt it. There's only three editors furthering the issue. But you can take me up on my offer, and then open the possibility of "I told you so" a few years down the road :) Be well, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- They’re going to happen whether I’m involved or not. A simple solution is to stop them from becoming “wars” by making them straight consensus votes with no capacity for back-n-forth sniping. Dronebogus (talk) 23:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Is there a better way to manage the conflict?
Well, not really, no.
There are three choices. Either (1) everyone manages their own behaviour; or (2) someone else steps in to manage their behaviour; or (3) we leave the behaviour un-managed. (3) is undesirable and (1) isn't happening, so we're at (2). QED.
Those of us who aren't sysops have one tool in our box to help with (2). We can politely remind people that they need to manage their own behaviour. Where that fails us, as in this case, we use our sysops as referee. They deploy the excellent judgment and top class interpersonal skills that RFA is meant to test for and all sysops therefore undoubtedly possess. Where that fails, all we have left is sanctions.
I would suggest to you that the feelings of alienation from and persecution by Wikipedians that you mention are avoidable and your sysop-imposed departure from the project isn't inevitable at all. Never revert anyone, but proceed directly to the talk page; speak your mind mildly and politely; say it once and then move on. Accept that sometimes other people are wrong, and that's okay.—S Marshall T/C 09:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
It took a few years for me to learn, it's best to practice 'not repeating' oneself in any RFC, RM, etc. Trying to convince an editor who disagrees with you, will most likely have the opposite effect. Concerning posts in an RFC, RM, etc? Less is more. GoodDay (talk) 09:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed Dronebogus (talk) 22:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Query about use of Village Pump Proposals
- Queries for Barkeep49 and Levivich; at the point you made your (initial) posts to this thread, were you aware that the October 30 VPR post followed on a September 30 post of same? How is this not thinly-disguised canvassing or easily gamed (as in, if I haven't yet gotten the result I want, I'll keep cross-posting 'til I do)? And is even the first VPR an appropriate use of VPR; that is, what is the scope of VPR (I was under the impression it was for meta issues, not individual article disputes), and how does repeated use of it for individual articles, rather than issues of broader impact across all articles, not facilitate "asking the other parent" and gaming of the system? I'm truly confused about why we would stall closing an RFC because someone repetitively asks for more feedback, worried about the slippery slope acceptance of that, and wonder how VPR is intended to be used, and how allowing an RFC to continue running as long as people are cross-posting about it elsewhere will not lead to gaming the system, and make anyone reluctant to come in and close an RFC. As a non-admin, I'm not in a position to state whether the close was premature, but S Marshall is a most sensible editor; I'd not want us to be discouraging sensible editors from tackling tough closes, and I'm truly confused about why multiple cross-posts about an individual article isn't gaming the system, and why we want to open that door. Why should VPR be used to canvass editors to infobox discussions? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:15, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't really have an opinion on RFC notifications at VPR. Levivich (talk) 04:33, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Levivich ok, just me trying to understand whether VPR was used appropreately in this case, and maybe someone will clue me in, but for your part specifically, when you said in your opening post that
"On October 30, further input was requested at VPR"
, were you aware it was a duplicate of a September 30 post? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)- I don't remember whether, a month ago, I saw that post on VPR or not. Also, I have no idea where else, besides VPR, this may or may not have been advertised. I only mentioned the Oct 30 VPR post because that is what brought me and other voters (I assume) to vote between Oct 30 and Nov 2, when the RFC was closed, and I'm asking for this RFC to be reopened because there was active voting on the day of, and in the days prior, to the close. I don't mind answering your questions of course, but tbh I don't understand why the earlier VPR post, my thoughts on its propriety, or my awareness of it, is relevant to whether this RFC should be reopened because there were new votes coming in. Levivich (talk) 05:15, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's me wondering how many times someone can "ask the other parent", and worrying where that will lead if we truly endorse same, and concerned that such a trend will turn VPR in to the go-to place to canvass. Re you in particular, just wanting to doublecheck whether the knowledge of the earlier post changes your initial impression. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:22, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- It doesn't change my view. I think when an RFC is "tied" (or close to it) after 30 days, it's a good idea to advertise for more input. If editors have already invested time into an RFC and it's "on the border" of achieving consensus (like 58%), trying to get more editors to participate is the most efficient route to a clear result. Also, I don't really see how a post to any village pump can be canvassing, so long as it's neutrally-worded, since the village pump isn't an audience with a particular viewpoint. As to VPR being overrun by RFC notices, yeah, that could be a problem, but I don't think that is relevant to whether this RFC should be reopened. Levivich (talk) 05:35, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thx, Levivich; now I understand your viewpoint. (And glad you acknowledge my concern about VPR being overrun by RFC notices, but I guess we'll have to cross that bridge if we come to it.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:23, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- It doesn't change my view. I think when an RFC is "tied" (or close to it) after 30 days, it's a good idea to advertise for more input. If editors have already invested time into an RFC and it's "on the border" of achieving consensus (like 58%), trying to get more editors to participate is the most efficient route to a clear result. Also, I don't really see how a post to any village pump can be canvassing, so long as it's neutrally-worded, since the village pump isn't an audience with a particular viewpoint. As to VPR being overrun by RFC notices, yeah, that could be a problem, but I don't think that is relevant to whether this RFC should be reopened. Levivich (talk) 05:35, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's me wondering how many times someone can "ask the other parent", and worrying where that will lead if we truly endorse same, and concerned that such a trend will turn VPR in to the go-to place to canvass. Re you in particular, just wanting to doublecheck whether the knowledge of the earlier post changes your initial impression. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:22, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't remember whether, a month ago, I saw that post on VPR or not. Also, I have no idea where else, besides VPR, this may or may not have been advertised. I only mentioned the Oct 30 VPR post because that is what brought me and other voters (I assume) to vote between Oct 30 and Nov 2, when the RFC was closed, and I'm asking for this RFC to be reopened because there was active voting on the day of, and in the days prior, to the close. I don't mind answering your questions of course, but tbh I don't understand why the earlier VPR post, my thoughts on its propriety, or my awareness of it, is relevant to whether this RFC should be reopened because there were new votes coming in. Levivich (talk) 05:15, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Levivich ok, just me trying to understand whether VPR was used appropreately in this case, and maybe someone will clue me in, but for your part specifically, when you said in your opening post that
- There's nothing wrong publicizing a RFC on VP per WP:RFCTP. It's particularly strange accusation of "thinly-disguised canvassing." What particular group is being canvased here? Are you opposed to getting more input? Nemov (talk) 12:11, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- WP:RFCTP says you can post on Village Pump forums "
if related to it
". Can you explain how a content discussion is "related to" the Village Pump forums? I'm not convinced it's "related to" it enough for posting once, let alone twice. - SchroCat (talk) 12:35, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- WP:RFCTP says you can post on Village Pump forums "
- I was not aware but I disagree Sandy with your idea that it's thinly disguised canvassing. Both posts meet the criteria laid out in the guideline, with the only questionable piece being the repeated posting. What I think that shows is a belief by Nemov that broader participation will support their POV which may or may not be correct but seems like the kind of action we want to avoid WP:LOCALCON issues. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- They don't meet the criteria. The VP forums are not there to be used for advertising content RFCs. Only RFCs that are "related to" the particular forum should be posted there. We have a feedback request service for advertising RFCs, not every other forum that people think they want to clog up once, let alone twice. - SchroCat (talk) 14:23, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- You're right that content doesn't belong on the Village Pump. However I think, for a number of historical and practical reasons, that I wouldn't label Infobox disputes as purely content ones and this is why I did not find a single notification to a pump objectionable but instead in keeping with the CANVASS guidelines. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:37, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- We will have to differ on whether it ever appropriate to post to the VP for something that is not supported related to VP activity. It's certainly not justified by the RFC guidelines and I personally think it wholly inappropriate. In this case, if only it were "a single notification": the notification that was put on the VP was left after Legobot removed the RFC tag and after I left a request at WP:RFCL was the second one post on that board about the same RFC. The RFC had run for over 30 days, been on the Feedback Request messaging service and been advertised inappropriately on a VP forum and there was still no consensus before it was inappropriately added to the VP forum for a second time. Disruptive much? However, as it seems that people are not going to bother with the the guidelines at WP:RFCTP, it does now mean that any future IB discussions are likely to see such notifications at other semi- or un-related forums - FAC, etc, is likely to now have such notifications neutrally notifying of the process. I wonder how long it will be before someone is accused of gaming the system by doing just that. - SchroCat (talk) 17:03, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- You're right that content doesn't belong on the Village Pump. However I think, for a number of historical and practical reasons, that I wouldn't label Infobox disputes as purely content ones and this is why I did not find a single notification to a pump objectionable but instead in keeping with the CANVASS guidelines. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:37, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, BK, that answers my question then. It's ten or fifteen years too late now, with the fait accompli accomplished, but it's interesting that posts to WT:FAC and other places were avoided for so many years while IBs were imposed on FAs, as posting there was thought to be a breach of the spirt of canvassing. I've continued my discussion of broader concerns at User talk:SchroCat, as they're beyond the scope of this closure discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- But since we're here at AN, where admins can opine on such things, and because the last Arbcase requested a community-wide discussion of infoboxes, why are (most often, the same) editors being allowed to pursue individual article infoboxes, and not admonished to open the community-wide RFC instead? How is the arbcase not being flouted? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Never mind, SchroCat located a discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 143#Infobox RFC. And I even participated in it (growin' old ain't for sissies, apologies). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:30, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- They don't meet the criteria. The VP forums are not there to be used for advertising content RFCs. Only RFCs that are "related to" the particular forum should be posted there. We have a feedback request service for advertising RFCs, not every other forum that people think they want to clog up once, let alone twice. - SchroCat (talk) 14:23, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't really have an opinion on RFC notifications at VPR. Levivich (talk) 04:33, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Use of Village Pump Proposals
Back to the concern about how to publicize RFCs, and whether Village Pump Proposals is best used for meta-issues, or should be used for individual article disputes, and why the approach taken here seemed to breach the spirit of the canvassing guideline. If publishing RFCs to VPR is to become the accepted norm, it could overrun Village Pump Proposals when there are other options available to more directly engage editors knowledgeable in a specific content area. WP:RFCTP mentions that RFCs can be publicized on talk pages of relevant WikiProjects.
Nemov you have notified VPR of five infobox discussions on four Featured articles, but have never once notified the relevant WikiProjects, which is the place where (theoretically) editors knowledgeable about that specific content area are more likely to congregate, follow or respond. The four FAs all passed FAC without infoboxes. The five articles are:
- FA Rod Steiger, 21 March, which 3 WikiProjects have tagged, in addition to WT:FAC which could have been notified
- Colleen Ballinger, 27 April, which 5 WikiProjects have tagged
- FA Richard Wagner, 11 July, which 6 WikiProjects have tagged, and FAC could also be notified
- FA Felix Mendelssohn, 17 July, which 6 WikiProjects have tagged, and FAC
- FA Georges Feydeau, September 30 and again on October 30, which 5 WikiProjects have tagged, and FAC
If WikiProjects and other more directly involved pages were approached first, this whole matter would seem much less like a problem waiting to happen, where key pages and players weren't notified, and more like an attempt to reach those editors most likely to understand the content issues, rather than appear only because of a stance on infoboxes. I hope we can agree that moving these acrimonious discussions into the realm of what a useful infobox would convey on a given topic-- rather than just IB yay or nay-- would benefit both the articles and the participants, and that one goal should be to engage those who best know the content and sources. Absent that, it still seems to be that the approach taken on those five articles is more likely only to pull in editors who have strong views about infoboxes, which is likely to continue to result in heated discussions along the lines of yea or nay on IBs, rather than specific benefits to specific articles.
My suggestion continues to be that this was not an appropriate use of VPR, which should be reserved for meta issues; if it is an appropriate use of VPR, then we should expect to see all RFCs posted there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- As others have mentioned, this isn't an issue and neutral worded notices that encourage more feedback are good. I will continue to do so when it's necessary to help find consensus. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 21:50, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- I've always seen neutrally worded notifications of a discussion to WikiProject talk pages, noticeboards, or village pumps as best practice and not canvassing. I think canvassing only comes into play when you start going offwiki or you give notifications to individuals (rather than groups). I appreciate that others may have a different interpretation of WP:CANVASS, and I have been surprised in the past at how vague WP:CANVASS is. I think that page would benefit from a bulleted list of allowed notifications and disallowed notifications, rather than its appropriate/inappropriate/scale/message/audience/transparency table. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:07, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I wonder if the tension here between general notifications and project specific notifications arises from the fact that disagreements about infoboxes are sometimes between general supporters of infoboxes who believe in good faith that they practically always add value to an article, and specific cases where editors working on an article feel that an infobox is not justified (as I argued in this RfC, for full disclosure) because there is not enough information that is true and not misleading to include in one. General appeals for more participation in an RfC are likely to move the needle away from the subject-specific or article-editor preference. That doesn't mean it's wrong to post these notifications to places like the village pumps, but I think it's likely they'll have that effect, whatever the intent of the notification. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Mike Christie did you mean to include a link on "as I argued in this RFC")? Yes, that is (one) part of the issue. Considering the view expressed here on the use of VPR for notifications, then fora like FAC and GAN should also be noticed in future infobox discussions. And I continue to request that Novem (who as far as I've seen, is the only editor using VPR for infobox discussions) first use the more typical avenue of notifying the WikiProjects tagged on the article page, or at least do both. As Mike says-- to avoid moving the needle away from people who work in the specific content area. Realistically, because FAs have been targeted for infobox inclusion, the FA-process community should have been a bigger part of the discussion all along, and yet were not notified historically. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:52, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
No. The Village Pump is called that because it is the place where any and all Wikipedians can come together to discuss anything.
We have some loosely topic-defined VPs simply because having one page would be too long. But VP/Misc does exist for everything else.
Let's not try to hyper-control what should be an open forum for discussion.
If the concern is that VP/Proposals has been getting too long of late, then let's talk about adding another sub-page. not curtailing open discussion. - jc37 15:49, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- If you think this should be allowable, then WP:RFCTP (which suggests that you can only post RFCs on Village Pump forums "if related to it") needs to be re-written, because this goes in the face of the current guidelines. - SchroCat (talk) 16:04, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- First of all, that's an essay, but let's sidestep that as immaterial at the moment.
- I don't see an issue with the text. The sub-pages are topical. And MISC is there for the rest. - jc37 16:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think there's a natural hierarchy of notifications for content issues. An RfC about how to present Rotten Tomatoes reviews in a film article may only need to be notified to the films project. Some RfCs might benefit from notifications to multiple WikiProjects, and perhaps to FA/FL/GA pages if good/featured content is involved. The broader the question at the RfC (a matter of editorial judgement, of course), the higher up the hierarchy the notifications should go. But I can't see a reason why anyone would want to notify village pumps and not notify the lower (i.e. more focused) levels of the hierarchy. I'd interpret RFCTP to mean this when it says "if related to it". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Getting hung up on controlling the venue of a discussion, kinda gets into WP:CREEP territory. The important thing is that the discussion be somewhere where interested editors may join in the discussion in question. - jc37 16:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but it's also true that notifications shouldn't omit appropriate pages, and that doing so can unintentionally introduce biases. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:31, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Can and has introduced bias. Many of us who held what are now apparently old-fashioned views of what comprised Canvassing, and followed the spirt of what we believed the guideline meant, never dared discuss an infobox proposal outside of the article talk page, for fear of arb sanction. And yet today, centralized "what was once viewed as canvassing" is allowed, while talk page misbehaviors are the norm. Standards of acceptance have apparently changed, after the horse already left the barn while others were sidelined by previous ideas about (not) canvassing; the guidelines need to reflect the changed attitudes. I can't decipher any useful purpose for escalating to VPR when more relevant WikiProjects are ignored and bypassed. Perhaps we should just have a message board dedicated to infobox proposals if VPR is to be used as a beacon for proponents of one side of a discussion, while bypassing fora where others are present. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- If your concern is notification, then as I mentioned below, Wikipedia:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification, has you covered. The list of accepted options is pretty extensive. And that list has been stable for years.
- But also remember - no one is "required" to notify of a discussion. But if you think an appropriate place should be notified, Be Bold - anyone can presumably notify about a discussion, following those guidelines. - jc37 15:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Can and has introduced bias. Many of us who held what are now apparently old-fashioned views of what comprised Canvassing, and followed the spirt of what we believed the guideline meant, never dared discuss an infobox proposal outside of the article talk page, for fear of arb sanction. And yet today, centralized "what was once viewed as canvassing" is allowed, while talk page misbehaviors are the norm. Standards of acceptance have apparently changed, after the horse already left the barn while others were sidelined by previous ideas about (not) canvassing; the guidelines need to reflect the changed attitudes. I can't decipher any useful purpose for escalating to VPR when more relevant WikiProjects are ignored and bypassed. Perhaps we should just have a message board dedicated to infobox proposals if VPR is to be used as a beacon for proponents of one side of a discussion, while bypassing fora where others are present. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but it's also true that notifications shouldn't omit appropriate pages, and that doing so can unintentionally introduce biases. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:31, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Getting hung up on controlling the venue of a discussion, kinda gets into WP:CREEP territory. The important thing is that the discussion be somewhere where interested editors may join in the discussion in question. - jc37 16:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
IMHO, WikiProjects that relate to an RFC, is the best place to notify interested editors. The Village Pump pages? are kinda like a dusty attic or basement. Unless you have'em on your watchlist? you ain't gonna visit them much. GoodDay (talk) 16:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification has had this covered for a very long time. - jc37 16:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it says to use Village Pump "for discussions that have a wider influence such as policy or guideline discussions". However you want to look at this, the guidance is all about only using VP for non-content matters. As I said above, if they are going to be used for content matters in future, then the guidance will have to be re-written, because at the moment the use for advertising individual content discussions on individual pages is inappropriate. - SchroCat (talk) 17:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I suggest we say that it's okay to cross-post to the Village Pump but if it's a Featured Article then WT:FAC is a more relevant venue.—S Marshall T/C 19:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I know nothing about FA, but if there isn't already, it seems like there should an FA RFC page that lists all current RFCs on FA talk pages (not just infobox). Levivich (talk) 19:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- These last two proposals still bypass WikiProjects and, for example, GAs. The problem is bigger than just FAs (although FAs seem to have been targeted because ... well, they're FAs, so they're the best place for establishing fait accompli. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:25, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I know nothing about FA, but if there isn't already, it seems like there should an FA RFC page that lists all current RFCs on FA talk pages (not just infobox). Levivich (talk) 19:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Closing time?
Anybody wanna close, as this discussion has petered out? GoodDay (talk) 16:18, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- I just read through the discussion with an eye on closing it, but having done so I think I'd rather just let the thread quietly archive itself away. Essentially, I agree with SandyGeorgia and Cullen328 - any discussions about infoboxes are a waste of time, partaking in them is a waste of time, and trying to change the minds of people who oppose your views is a waste of time. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- This is a discussion about whether to close a discussion about whether to reopen a discussion. I think we might have reached peak Wikipedia. WaggersTALK 15:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Good point! I think this calls for a discussion about the discussion about whether to close a discussion about whether to reopen a discussion.—S Marshall T/C 15:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I just figured, it doesn't look like the RFC closure is going to be overturned. GoodDay (talk) 23:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Doesn't have enough subheadings yet. Levivich (talk) 00:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- This is a discussion about whether to close a discussion about whether to reopen a discussion. I think we might have reached peak Wikipedia. WaggersTALK 15:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Does this need a formal close?
I agreed with Barkeep above so I can't close this. But it doesn't meet the threshold for needing a close anyway. Closure is endorsed, no consensus about anything else regarding infoboxes except that everyone agrees there's no consensus on anything regarding infoboxes. Don't need some fancy colored box to spell that out. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
2,000+ admin actions in violation of WP:BAN
General Discussion
As the dust settles from [27], something has been nagging at me: There are now about 1,000 blocks and 1,000 deletions, plus some other admin actions, that were performed in violation of an ArbComBan. To my knowledge, this is the first time this has happened in the modern era of Wikipedia adminning (i.e. since c. 2012). Now, editors have broad discretion to revert actions made in violation of a ban, and WP:RAAA would not apply here for multiple reasons, but in this case most actions will be trivially valid, anti-vandalism and -spam actions. But not all of them. Some will be judgment-calls, even tough ones, where we deferred to the discretion of a fellow admin, and where that discretion should maybe now be reviewed.
Should there be some kind of review, particularly of the blocks? I could put together a list of outstanding tempblocks and p-blocks, plus indefs of any established users, and admins could reblock in cases where we're willing to assume responsibility. Maybe that's too much, and I'm aware of the WP:DENY aspect here, but at the same time, if I got blocked and then found out the blocking admin was a sock, I'd be pretty damn pissed, and I think we owe it to those people to at least take a look at whether the blocks were any good. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 17:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Are there any actions that stand out to be particularly egregious after a cursory glance? The Night Watch (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Probably, most of the admin actions she did are ones that no admin would have declined. Such actions should be left alone.
- You probably won't get admins to mass-review her actions. Even her deletions, which non-admins can't.
- If you believe any specific action she did was incorrect, feel free to request admin review.
- Any admin may undo her actions without it being wheel-warring.
- Animal lover |666| 18:36, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Reblocking will just give the user a longer block log, which they might not appreciate. I think it would be better to just list the blocks on a page somewhere (akin to a CCI), and have admins tick "yes, reviewed, I would have made that block". The willingness to assume bad faith shown in this thread suggests that yes, there might be some blocks which need to be undone. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Generally agree with above that we should 1) apply the reasonable admin standard and 2) not change blocks or other actions unless they don't meet that standard, which I think leads to 3) probably should only list the "currently active" things, whether deletion, block, or protection (or other action). WP:VOLUNTEER as to the utility/necessity of such work. Izno (talk) 22:27, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- If someone wants to do the hard work of going through 2,000 actions and bring them up for community review, I guess I can't stop them. But I don't think its necessary. The right thing is to do what we would do with any action committed by an admin removed for cause: review it when it comes up, and add that admin's conduct as a factor to be weighed. For example, ArbCom already does that. We occasionally get appeals from users who were blocked by now banned or otherwise disgraced users. We don't automatically undo the block because of who made it. But we do investigate more deeply than we usually would into whether the block was right in the first place. I would be opposed to unblocking or reblocking accounts sua sponte. For unblocking, we don't allow third party unblocks. Why unblock an account banned 5 years ago if the user is long gone? For reblocking, not only does that consideration apply, but further, reblocking after a long time is inadvisable because you weren't there when the inciting incident happened, and thus might miss something. That would also serve to obfuscate who got blocked by Lourdes in the first place, which might make undoing a bad Lourdes block harder. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:36, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know how this slipped through my radar, but that is an absolutely stunning turn of events. My jaw literally dropped reading that diff. It might be worth looking through anything active, but that is a lot of work that might not have much benefit. If there was ever consensus to undo actions en masse, bot ops with admin bots (like myself) could be pinged/contacted to assist. --TheSandDoctor Talk 23:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Isn't this the posterboy for a legitimate WP:XRV use? jp×g🗯️ 23:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I would oppose a blanket reversal (which I don't think anyone has suggested yet, but it seems inevitable) but don't have an issue with more contentious blocks being listed for review. If someone is willing to do the excruciatingly boring work of compiling those, they have my thanks in advance. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't envy the work. This is like when a crooked cop gets caught and then all of the arrests the cop made need to be looked at. Lightburst (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't envy the work, and I've been involved in some of these mass review projects, from GNIS (still ongoing) to the one with all of the sportspeople. This seems worse. CaptainEek, I have sympathies for someone who might have been illegitimately blocked and as a result just walked away thinking that Wikipedia was run by idiots. We cannot necessarily rely on people coming to complain as a driving force. We should at least look. And we should differentiate between blocks to enforce bans (Are there even any?) and blocks that are not part of banning. Uncle G (talk) 03:35, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
AN/I boards
As Lourdes herself noted, comments given on AN/I also carry admin authority, and randomly scrolling through archives I do see that she was quite active in terms of participating in discussions, threatening (or recommending) admin actions, or closing threads and sending people elsewhere. Is there a point in looking at those actions as well? Fermiboson (talk) 21:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
IP Blocks to review
These are the IP blocks made by Lourdes that are still active as of today. I suggest that an admin review each one and decide if it should be removed or kept (I've done some already). This is a very small subset of the above. There were no indefinite IP blocks. — xaosflux Talk 00:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- For anyone interested, here are the username blocks (most are indef): Special:PermaLink/1183546654. — xaosflux Talk 00:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I looked at two random username blocks. I suppose that a reasonably thorough administrator would not overlook deleting the page User:Journal of BIoresources and Bioproducts (obvious copyvio etc.) when blocking for the very reason of creating such pages. There may be omissions of this type or of some other type. —Alalch E. 00:34, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Blocks of users with 100+ edits
Without prejudice against looking at the full ~900 account blocks, I've triaged this to a list of users with at least 100 edits. My reasoning is that blocks of low-editcount users are much more likely to be routine vandal/spam blocks, and that a brand-new editor who was wrongly blocked will probably have either just created a new account, WP:SOCK be damned, or been scared away for good.
| Username | Expiry | Disposition |
|---|---|---|
| Amitamitdd (talk · contribs) | infinity |  Reasonable failure-to-respond block. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:35, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Dieter Mueller (talk · contribs) | infinity | Reasonable failure-to-respond block. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:35, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Kthxbay (talk · contribs) | infinity | Sockpuppetry confirmed (although not necessarily to master) @ Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Nangparbat/Archive § 08 May 2020. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:35, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Jib Yamazaki (talk · contribs) | infinity | Reasonable failure-to-respond block. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:35, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Nlivataye (talk · contribs) | infinity | User talk:Nlivataye#June 2023 is not inspiring. Izno (talk) 05:31, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| AlhyarJy (talk · contribs) | infinity | Reasonable failure-to-respond block. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Saucysalsa30 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Had community support at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1130#Block consideration for Saucysalsa30. Mackensen (talk) 02:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Wallacevio (talk · contribs) | infinity | Reasonable failure-to-respond block. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| GRanemos1 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Reasonable failure-to-respond block. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Donovyegg (talk · contribs) | infinity | Reasonable failure-to-respond block. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Chamaemelum (talk · contribs) | infinity | Validly-enacted siteban. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Gbe Dutu (talk · contribs) | infinity | Reasonable failure-to-respond block. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Abdel hamid67 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Had community support @ Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1134 § Unreferenced articles by User:Abdel hamid67. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 00:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| DaleEarnhardt292001 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1134#User:DaleEarnhardt292001; user did not request an unblock. Mackensen (talk) 02:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Darshan Kavadi (talk · contribs) | infinity |  See below. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| A E WORLD (talk · contribs) | infinity |  Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1137#Mass overlinking and poor grammar 'corrections' by relatively new editor was the report. Whilst I am not convinced that the accountholder can write, at User talk:A E WORLD#August 2023 2, Lourdes and others seem to be putting up more and more hoops for the accountholder to jump through. Exactly how is the person supposed to prove that xe will do something that xe has stated xe will do? Uncle G (talk) 06:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Chuachenchie (talk · contribs) | infinity | See below. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Golden Mage (talk · contribs) | infinity | Not confirmed at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Datu Hulyo/Archive, and although the block was for disruption it was for disruption that was the same pattern as that sockpuppteer. Tamzin? Uncle G (talk) 03:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Ptb1997 (talk · contribs) | infinity |  Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1139#User:Ptb1997 might have been a trigger-happy block, but the rest of the community shares in the shame of this given Special:Diff/1176584689. The accountholder promised to do better back in September, and our collective response to this for two months has been massively bureaucratic, including ignoring that diff twice over simply because it wasn't put in an unblock request box. Uncle G (talk) 05:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Egerer12 (talk · contribs) | infinity | This was discounted as a sockpuppet by Tamzin, but is one of the accounts that has heavily contributed to the fact that Draft: namespace and the article namespace are now full of duplicate Country at the 2024 Summer Olympics articles, e.g. Mozambique at the 2024 Summer Olympics and the identical Draft:Mozambique at the 2024 Summer Olympics. This is a massive waste of AFC reviewers' time, especially as there's a backlog of several thousand drafts to review, and would that there were a speedy deletion criterion for getting rid of all of the duplicate drafts! Uncle G (talk) 05:19, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| 574X (talk · contribs) | infinity | Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1140#574X already had support from ScottishFinnishRadish. Uncle G (talk) 04:58, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Yafie Achmad Raihan (talk · contribs) | infinity | Non-English speaker blocked for not communicating at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1140#Concerning page moves by Yafie Achmad Raihan. Account's Indonesian Wikipedia block log is clean for that and more page moves. Uncle G (talk) 04:28, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Silveresc (talk · contribs) | 20231105051320 | Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1141 § Long term POV disruptive editing at Zviad Gamsakhurdia. Not sure the situation was handled optimally, but it's a p-block and expires imminently, so meh. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 00:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Sinwiki12 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Not a sockpuppeteer per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sinwiki12/Archive, but the block was for repeated whitewashing of Chinese topic articles and diffs such as Special:Diff/1138585762 (Hello, Bbb23!) do indicate that there was a problem here. The account definitely had an article editing agenda that what Wikipedia said about China was all lies put about by American newspapers, and edited several articles in that vein (e.g. Special:Diff/1175736935). See also Special:Diff/1019125984. I suspect that this account would have ended up being blocked in the long run. Uncle G (talk) 04:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
| AbrahamCat (talk · contribs) | infinity | Incivility block at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1141#User:AbrahamCat at Choke (sports). Worth a quick peer-review by someone here, but on its face it's likely good. Uncle G (talk) 04:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Omer123hussain (talk · contribs) | infinity |  Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1141#Omer123hussain: persistent sourcing issues definitely needs peer review. It's in the Indian topics area that Wifione was restricted from. Uncle G (talk) 04:07, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
|
-- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 00:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I would say that the block on User:Darshan Kavadi (DK) deserves a second look (and possibly reversed for being a bad block). DK was first warned of their disruptive editing behaviour on July 26. DK disengaged and edited other articles on August 1. No other edits were made by DK after August 2. ANI report was filed on August 8 but closed because Lourdes went straight for indef block on first instance. The appearance of non-communication by DK was a self-fulfilling prophecy because DK never had a chance to reply (or saw it too late). It's almost like DK was punished for disengaging from the disputed page in question. No admin would have issued a indef block on a single warning on an account who hasn't edited for a week, which makes Lourdes's actions punitive instead of preventative. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Plus, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1136#Requesting advice and suitable resolution was in the area of single-purpose account Indian promotional editing, which Wifione should not have been touching at all. Uncle G (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Here's another questionable block. User:Chuachenchie has been editing since November 2020 and had 9k edits. Edits are a mixture of bad (OR, BLP) and good (ITN noms). Lourdes once again went right to indef block and not start off with short blocks and escalate from there. Editor remains active on zh.wp. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:17, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- That block was made as a result of this report. That editor managed to make over 9k edits without once talking to anybody or even leaving an edit summary. Communicating with other editors isn't really optional. Lourdes did leave a warning, which was ignored, and there were numerous previous attempts by other people to talk to this editor, which were also ignored. The block doesn't look unreasonable. Hut 8.5 14:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- The fact that Lourdes went for an indef block as the first block shows a series of trigger-happy blocks that dish out maximum sentence from the get-go (at least I wouldn't in that circumstance). OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- For a lack of communication I would generally go with an indef since editors who don't communicate will usually ignore a short term block - an indefinite block forces communication. I don't really see an indef as a maximum sentence here, just "blocked until they communicate". Galobtter (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Has anyone tried contacting them on zhwiki in Chinese? I may be able to if someone tells me what to say. As far as I can tell the issue here is language proficiency and CIR, which can be discussed with the editor. Fermiboson (talk) 22:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- @OhanaUnited, an indef for refusing to communicate is not a "maximum sentence". It's IMO a completely reasonable way to require communication commence rather than simply allowing someone to wait it out. An indef can be lifted five minutes later by any admin. Many admins are reluctant to lift a timed block, so an indef can actually be much shorter. All it takes is convincing someone the person is able and sincerely willling to address the issue. Valereee (talk) 11:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- For a lack of communication I would generally go with an indef since editors who don't communicate will usually ignore a short term block - an indefinite block forces communication. I don't really see an indef as a maximum sentence here, just "blocked until they communicate". Galobtter (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- The fact that Lourdes went for an indef block as the first block shows a series of trigger-happy blocks that dish out maximum sentence from the get-go (at least I wouldn't in that circumstance). OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- That block was made as a result of this report. That editor managed to make over 9k edits without once talking to anybody or even leaving an edit summary. Communicating with other editors isn't really optional. Lourdes did leave a warning, which was ignored, and there were numerous previous attempts by other people to talk to this editor, which were also ignored. The block doesn't look unreasonable. Hut 8.5 14:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I made the report on Omer123hussain that led to the block above. I think it's justified; there's serious OR issues there; but nobody else seems to want to engage with it. I will not be taking any admin action, though I'm not necessarily capital-I Involved. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:38, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I saw that ANI report and didn't have time to look into it, but I was glad someone did and took action (those kind of ANI reports get very little attention). I checked Talk:Hyderabad#Dubious which Lourdes linked to and Omer123hussain's use of a 100 year old source and simple refusal to provide the quote from the source that supports their material looks very problematic. I can look into this more and take over the block if needed, but I don't think this block should be overturned simply because of the situation with Lourdes.
- It seems these block reviews are less "that was a bad block" but more some admins think Lourdes should've been more lenient, 🤷🏾♀️. Galobtter (talk) 04:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think the block needs to be looked at. I've raised it with Omer123hussain and I'll see if the is an option that doesn't involve going straight to an indefinite ban from mainspace. I agree that there is an issue with their editing, but with 9000+ edits and multiple GAs I'd like to look for an alternative solution. - Bilby (talk) 05:22, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- On the contrary, Lourdes was Wifione and per Wifione's Arbitration Committee restrictions should not have been involving xyrself in this at all. They were Indian topics and at least one was a biography of a living Indian person. This was most definitely bad. Uncle G (talk) 11:43, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Uncle G:, I believe what Galobtter is saying is that the block stands on its merits. We're not planning (I assume) to revert every one of Lourdes's ~24k contributions; by the same logic we shouldn't reverse a block that another admin endorses. Your logic is applicable to any block Lourdes made, including the obvious vandals, because Wifione didn't have any restrictions that were ARBIPA-wide; just Indian BLPs and educational institutions. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, it clearly only extends to topic that Wifione was prohibited from, not any blocks. This block is squarely an administrative action in the prohibited topic area. At least one of the articles in the complaint about Omer123hussain was a biography of a living Indian person, and as it was about more than the specific edits cited but about Omer123hussain's editing history in general, which extends to a lot of India-related stuff, that would have likely touched upon more prohibited Indian topics. Lourdes should never have touched this. Xe was prohibited from it as an editor, let alone as an administrator. Uncle G (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Uncle G:, I believe what Galobtter is saying is that the block stands on its merits. We're not planning (I assume) to revert every one of Lourdes's ~24k contributions; by the same logic we shouldn't reverse a block that another admin endorses. Your logic is applicable to any block Lourdes made, including the obvious vandals, because Wifione didn't have any restrictions that were ARBIPA-wide; just Indian BLPs and educational institutions. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Resolved- I'm on the fence about Ptb1997. As is sadly often the case when an admin places a block "Until user resolves issue X", the implied promise there hasn't been upheld in subsequent unblock proceedings. Sadly the accept/decline-focused nature of unblock requests leads to a lot of situations like this, where a user has said most of what they need to say but maybe needs to go into a bit more detail, and instead just gets declined on with little explanation. So with all that in mind I'd tend toward an unblock, with a warning about communication. However, there's also the matter of Ptb19975555, their sock. Evading a block imposed by someone who was in turn evading a ban is not something that WP:SOCK as a policy has ever contemplated, but either way, first offense for socking by an otherwise constructive user is normally 1-4 weeks, so I think commuting to time served, with warnings about communication and socking, would still be reasonable. Or at least I've mostly convinced myself of that in the course of writing this comment. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 06:24, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm in favour of forgiving the sockpuppetry (which was also handled bureaucratically, with its edits reverted because it was a sockpuppet), unblocking, with a statement that the community expects Special:Diff/1176584689 to be made good on, and will be found a more welcoming place for editors who talk to other editors. Especially as the warnings going back "8 years" turn out to be disambiguation 'bots, bracket 'bots, people talking about where punctuation goes in lists, why not to boldface things, birthdates in biographies, and which sportsperson gets player statistics. Only 7 of the warnings/requests were over the whole of 2023, and 3 of those were 'bots. And clearly the accountholder does communicate on occasion: Special:Diff/841858412. Hence why I think that it was a trigger-happy block. Uncle G (talk) 08:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- This seems a case of someone who genuinely wants to contribute but made some communication errors. I'd favour unblocking, at least as a trial. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Espresso Addict. I think we can unblock and keep an eye. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Unblocked with warnings for non-communication and sockpuppetry. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 16:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am involved with this in the sense that I raised the initial discussion about this user. Luck has it that they have just requested an unblock on promise that they will not do any more wrong page moves. There is something weird with their usage of the unblock template so it may not have turned up on any admin's radar yet. – robertsky (talk) 16:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- The problem was that it was in a <nowiki> section. Animal lover |666| 19:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Restricting someone editing from article space just because they messed up on moving articles appear to be unproportional response. This is another case of using the sledgehammer-size block on something minor. Could have simply impose a "don't do any more moves or you will be blocked" warning. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- The block served its purpose; the editor has acknowledged it and promises to avoid the disputed behavior. I'll unblock. Mackensen (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
I realise I'm not an admin, but would it be of help if I was the one to go through the 900+ other account bans and raise anything that I find here? I want to help to clean up the mess in any way possible. Fermiboson (talk) 19:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Fermiboson Yes please. That will be appreciated. Most of the activities that resulted in blocks can be viewed by anyone. It'll benefit from more lights shining onto this issue. OhanaUnitedTalk page 00:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Blocked accounts with 100- edits
A non-admin review of the rest of the blocks which could potentially be mistakes. The log has been reviewed up to the date of 19 March 2019. There are also a number of promotional userspaces which were not deleted, which I have CSD tagged on my own.
| Username | Expiry | Concern |
|---|---|---|
| Anarkaliofara (talk · contribs) | infinity | Edits were in the area of Indian castes, and not much community input appears to have happened at the AN/I thread, although there is undoubtedly some form of incivility/personal attack at minimum going on. Fermiboson (talk) 07:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
| A Big Cold Moon (talk · contribs) | infinity | Single revdel'd edit. Appears to be in relation to Esomeonee7 (talk · contribs), a Saudi POV pusher/vandal. Fermiboson (talk) 07:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Thegreatbooboo! (talk · contribs) | infinity | Does appear to be a nonsense-only account, but it would be better if someone checked the deleted contribs. Fermiboson (talk) 07:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
| TheSharpBlade (talk · contribs) | infinity | Nothing at all in the logs. Revdel'd BLP? Fermiboson (talk) 07:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Germanicus44 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Block for disruptive/POV editing w/r Ottomans, but nobody except WP:INVOLVED editors seems to have taken a look.
Given editing area is CTOP, probably best to confirm. Fermiboson (talk) 10:51, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Sequel5 (talk · contribs) | infinity | No controversy, I think, on the block itself. Having looked over the history though, should the block reason instead be something like undisclosed COI, incivility or WP:ASPERSIONS? Fermiboson (talk) 10:51, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Wfynde (talk · contribs) | infinity | Account does appear to be promo, but should their talk page entries be treated as COI edit requests? Also, sounds similar to Wifione, though I don’t doubt that’s just a coincidence. Fermiboson (talk) 10:51, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
| KG IT 7143 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Block for sock but nothing in logs. Evidence on deleted page? Also, edits relating to Indian (Nepali?) company. Fermiboson (talk) 10:51, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Timfoley50 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Courtesy ping to original blocking admin @Star Mississippi - while I think that the user has clearly been incivil on the user talk page, there appears to be genuine objection to the indef applied by SM at AN/I which was cut short by Lourdes' block. Lourdes' interpretation of the quoted sentence as a legal threat I feel is borderline, so err on the side of putting this here for review. In addition the block reason should also be changed from WP:NOTHERE to WP:NLT, if it stands. Fermiboson (talk) 14:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Searchingforaground (talk · contribs) | infinity | Block reason is promotional, but the user appears to not have made any obviously promotional edits (or any edit at all), nor is the username obviously that of any group or company. Fermiboson (talk) 14:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
|
| Multimilkp (talk · contribs) | infinity | Incivil, I suppose, but an immediate indef seems even more unnecessarily inflammatory? (FTR I haven't been able to find the AN/I thread in question so maybe there is something there which justifies it.) WP:ASPERSIONS of socking of the editor this person is in conflict with also appears to not have been dealt with, excepting a sock ban. Lourdes then claims on another user's talkpage that this account is a sock as well. Ultimately, it's not clear at all what the block actually is for. Fermiboson (talk) 14:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Experiment77 (talk · contribs) | infinity | Hints of WP:ASPERSIONS but, looking through contributions, nothing that could come close to an immediate indef block. The editor does appear to have left, and Lourdes cites that as her rationale for an indef, so maybe slightly moot at this point. Fermiboson (talk) 17:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC) |
| Riteinit (talk · contribs) | infinity | Appears to be a WP:BITE block. Editor was given no warning before the indef, and while I can see the case for incivility, I can also see the case for an excitable Midlander who's had a pint. Editor has also left TP message that could be interpreted as remorse/unblock request (although possibly WP:ASPERSIONS?) that should probably have been engaged with, in my opinion. Fermiboson (talk) 10:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
Anything beyond that is probably very, very moot. Fermiboson (talk) 10:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
I don't see how [28] counts as an attack page or is a negative unsourced BLP. Perhaps I'm missing some context here, though I'm also not sure if this user should be unblocked. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 07:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I wouldn't have deleted that as a G10 either. That said, it appears to be a hoax (unless anyone else can find evidence of a landscape architect named Donald J. Guest), and with the account's only other edit being this, I'd say it'd be best to let sleeping dogs lie at this point. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- I wouldn't have deleted it G10, but I see what Lourdes meant in terms of the tone of the second paragraph. I sometimes delete things G11/G10 where there's a mix of adulation with "struggled with drug abuse"/similar without any reliable sources. Espresso Addict (talk) 22:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- This may be borderline on the attack aspect, but it's very clearly not a serious attempt at an encyclopedia article; it's a joke at best and is probably trolling. I might not have blocked immediately, but I'd have given a 4im warning at the very least. There are multiple real-world people named Donald Guest, FWIW. I would not reverse this block. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
The deleted edit, from 18 October, is basically identical to User:Thegreatbooboo!/sandbox. I don't understand why Lourdes blocked more than three days after the last edits, but the account is obviously WP:DISRUPTONLY and there'd be no benefit to unblocking. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:15, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
The account's sole comment can be read here (it was just caught up in oversight collateral): Support Clearly a bad actor bad faith etc.
Does this ring any bells in terms of sockpuppetry? Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'd say almost definitely. I've done a CU and it's exclusively on proxies with another single edit account that's been blocked by another admin. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse, received email harassment from the account. Not sure if that appears in the CU logs, but the block is good. Jip Orlando (talk) 15:40, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
That's where three single-purpose accounts intersect, only one of which was blocked. The second is named after the article subject, and is a very clear conflict of interest editor. The third is a simple partial-blanking vandal. There's an acknowledgement of multiple accounts on one of the first two's user talk page.
Draft:Himalaya Jet is a different situation, and clearly the single-purpose account that did it, taking over almost immediately (which is highly suspect), is far more experienced with editing a wiki. The edit summary (non-)usage is very different, too. A cynic would no doubt say, given how quickly the second single-purpose account took over, that someone else picked up the undisclosed paid editing gig. ☺
Uncle G (talk) 21:23, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
This might well be one for the Project:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. This is one of those what-you-are-saying-about-me-without-any-sources-is-wrong-but-I-cannot-edit-a-wiki-for-toffee situations. The article discusses 2020 and one of its only two sources pre-dates that by quarter of a century.
It's also one of those which-band-members-are-the-"real"-band situations. ☺ Clearly the account is named after the band. We should regard this as an attempt to challenge unverifiable content, for which the rationale on User talk:Wfynde should not be overlooked, and the onus is on the people wanting to claim events happening in 2020 to provide some actual sources from the current century.
Uncle G (talk) 21:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads up @Fermiboson:. While I stand by my initial block and don't think he'll be a net positive, I reiterate what I said then, that I welcomed any additional input. If editors, admin or otherwise, feel it should be lifted, that's fine with me especially with so much time passed. That talk page got unecessarily ugly and I'm not going to engage with Foley directly as he asked me to stay off his Talk, and I'm happy to respect that. His immolation was a good example of why it's hard for editors to work in areas with which they have a COI. Star Mississippi 14:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- I find BrownHairedGirl (BHG)'s initial complaint on ANI that led to Timfoley50's block flawed at best, disinformation and misleading at worst. So many things were wrong in the initial report (characterizing someone as SPA, making it sound like someone with COI didn't declare), spinning "part truth" into a narrative that suits her goal (suggesting that Tim was forumshopping when it was spread out over 5 years) or coming up with her own metrics about talk page discussion length which is not backed by any policy (very similar to ArbCom's portal case). IMO this looks like a bad newbie-biting block. OhanaUnitedTalk page 14:54, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- My first-impression 0.2c is that, while the editor in question is clearly incivil, the BDP issue could very much hvae been resolved with methods other than a block. No comments or opinions on BHG's behaviour, and I haven't delved into the content dispute itself. Is reopening the AN/I thread a good idea? My main concern here in the context of this mass review is the fact that Lourdes stepped in in the middle and cut short a developing AN/I discussion, even if there is a case for NLT, and had Lourdes not done that AN/I may have reached a different conclusion. Fermiboson (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Having seen no end of this sort of stuff over the years, that has escalated to Arbitration, full-blown user RFCs, and banning discussions, this does seem to have all of the makings of yet more of the same, and I echo Star Mississippi's prediction that this will not go well. Would Star Mississippi's block have been overturned had discussion progressed further? It possibly would have, although that's not a certainty. There's not much to fault about Star Mississippi's offer at the end of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1132#User:Timfoley50 and the explorer Tom Crean and it might have been taken up.
Wifione/Lourdes's legal threat block did rather curtail that possibility. I agree with you that it's a bit borderline. I don't think that we need to re-open AN/I, though. After all, here is the Administrators' Noticeboard. ☺
- Having seen no end of this sort of stuff over the years, that has escalated to Arbitration, full-blown user RFCs, and banning discussions, this does seem to have all of the makings of yet more of the same, and I echo Star Mississippi's prediction that this will not go well. Would Star Mississippi's block have been overturned had discussion progressed further? It possibly would have, although that's not a certainty. There's not much to fault about Star Mississippi's offer at the end of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1132#User:Timfoley50 and the explorer Tom Crean and it might have been taken up.
- I'm probably not going to have much on wiki time this week so if you (collectively: @Fermiboson @OhanaUnited @Uncle G) think an unblock is the best way forward, feel free to do so. I'm never attached to blocks should they no longer prove necessary. Whether it needs to be here & ANI, I agree with UncleG. I feel like it can be handled here after or in conjunction with extending an offer of unblock to Timfoley50 and semi independent of the Lourdes block since mine was the basis. Star Mississippi 03:28, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- My first-impression 0.2c is that, while the editor in question is clearly incivil, the BDP issue could very much hvae been resolved with methods other than a block. No comments or opinions on BHG's behaviour, and I haven't delved into the content dispute itself. Is reopening the AN/I thread a good idea? My main concern here in the context of this mass review is the fact that Lourdes stepped in in the middle and cut short a developing AN/I discussion, even if there is a case for NLT, and had Lourdes not done that AN/I may have reached a different conclusion. Fermiboson (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
There are warnings on this user's talk page, albeit relating to edit warring not incivility (which is what the block was for). The incivility in question was very mild, so I agree it should have been met with a (further) warning instead of a block. However it's from so long ago that I suspect their interest in Wikipedia has long since waned. If they request an unblock I think it would be looked upon favourably but I don't see much merit in unblocking an account that's going to remain dormant anyway. WaggersTALK 11:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
User:Gilabrand unblock request
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Gilabrand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I am reaching out to kindly request a review of the recent suspension placed on my account, after spending the last 18 years giving of my time and energy to this project. I have over 72,000 edits to my credit. I have been so taken aback by this unexpected action (no advance notice, no edit-warring, no dispute with anyone), I am almost at a loss for words (which is rare for me). I assure you that my contributions were made in complete good faith, including the ones that some interpret as violating a topic ban that I have been careful to adhere to for the last 8 years (although there may have been slip-ups here and there, and as Nableezy has rightly commented, I ought to have appealed years ago). Allow me to say that on the few occasions that ban violations were brought to my attention, I was quick to revert as requested. An example: here. I am keen on maintaining the integrity and the accuracy of the content on Wikipedia, which has been the driving force behind my long-term commitment, and whatever complaints certain editors have had against me in the olden days, I believe there has been no repetition of any of that for decades. Many years have gone by during which I have a proven track record of working productively. I have added sourced content to thousands of entries, copyedited the English, written new articles and added images where there were none. Since my edits often involve topics related to Israel and Israeli people, I occasionally encounter gray areas requiring judgment calls - particularly in articles that are not clearly marked as falling under ARBPIA constraints but may contain sentences related to the conflict. If my appeal is accepted, I intend to avoid these gray areas with greater care. I am open to engaging in dialogue to address any concerns you may have and do what is needed to rectify the situation. I hope someone will realize that I may be old but I still have something to offer. Somehow, I don’t feel ready to be put out on the ice floe. I urge you to reconsider this block, to weigh the positive against the negative, and allow me to continue serving the Wikipedia community. Geewhiz (talk) 21:08, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Notified theleekycauldron as blocking admin. nableezy - 22:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Comments by involved editors (Gilabrand)
- In my view the topic ban violations blocked for here merited a polite request that Gila self-revert and be more mindful of her topic ban and nothing further. If a block was necessary a month would have been more than enough. I know we have this idea that blocks are for preventing disruption, but this block is preventing a minimal amount of disruption in the form of not following a topic ban but along with it lots of copyediting that we need. I know MER-C has other concerns relating to a newly opened CCI, and I have no opinion on if a block should be imposed for copyright violations or if it would be better to have Gila help clean them up, but the arbitration enforcement block to me is depriving Wikipedia of useful work for next to no reason. And so I think it should be lifted or drastically shortened. nableezy - 22:26, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- And for the record, I dont dispute these were ban violations. I just dont think they merit an indef. We ask people to rectify their violations by self-revert literally all the time, it is accepted almost as basic courtesy for 1RR violations for example. Nobody approached Gila to ask her to self-revert, nobody reminded her of the ban. Yes, she should have been more careful, yes the templates were there, but an indef block for these trivial edits? Cmon, its just not necessary. nableezy - 23:05, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping, nableezy. Gilabrand was blocked for multiple bright-line instances of violating her topic ban from both the Arab–Israeli conflict and Palestine, as well as several more edits that showed a clear pattern of ignoring the gray areas. A truly unthinkable number of tempblocks and past warnings were not sufficient to prevent these recent violations, and there were simply too many in such a short timespan (all of the edits I found were from the past two months' worth of editing) for a warning and request for reversion to suffice. Gilabrand's contributions are numerous (albeit I understand there is a CCI), but editors are expected to comply with policy and be accountable to the community even when no one is watching over their shoulder. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- A few editors have asked why I, in particular, chose to make this block – I'm happy to elaborate. I promised that I wouldn't take an admin action if I didn't know what I was doing, and the community agreed that they trusted my discretion in making that distinction. I was confident in this case, based on evidence and counsel, that I had a solid understanding of the facts of the case and the potential consequences of a block. (In reviewing this thread, I see plenty of good and healthy disagreement, but nothing I wasn't expecting, so I feel that the assumption holds up.) Another admin offered to take the action in my stead, but I politely refused: editors who want to criticize an admin action should know who was behind it, and in this case, it was me. If you think I acted inappropriately, feel free to tell me personally or report me to the appropriate noticeboards – I am, as always, open to criticism and accountable for the actions I take with community trust :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:59, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose lifting of block. Gilabrand has constantly violated her topic ban. There is a reason why that topic ban was issued. She has proven that she is incapable of following rules. When is enough, enough? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Comments by uninvolved editors (Gilabrand)
- Added involved/uninvolved headings and the above note. (Technically CTOP says to use {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}, but that template isn't actually written for AN, and I've never seen it used here.) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 22:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I respectfully oppose this appeal (full disclosure: I've blocked and sanctioned Gila several times in the past and I'm the admin who imposed the topic ban; I also unblocked her from her previous indef block after consultation with the blocking admin but I consider all of those actions to be in an administrative capacity). Gila's edits in the topic area were found to be disruptive and tendentious and she has been warned and blocked multiple times for violating it; there is little possibility that it would be lifted if it were appealed, even discounting this block. That she has continued to skirt round the edges of the ban and clearly step over the line several times suggests this is not someone making a good-faith effort to comply with their restrictions, which were imposed for good reason. I wouldn't oppose converting it to a lengthy definite duration (minimum six months) but that would take a strong, convincing commitment from Gila to stick rigidly to the topic ban and remember that it is "broadly construed". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I too have to oppose this appeal. I mean this diff is just kind of ridiculous. Like sure the edit is innocuous, but the ARBPIA template is literally the line before. There's no way to argue this or some of the other diffs provided theleekycauldron fall into a gray area. If two three-month blocks have not changed things, I'm not sure what we can do other than an indefinite block. That plus Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Gilabrand indicates that a separate indefinite copyright block is needed. Galobtter (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I try very hard to stay away from ARBPIA and related topic areas and offer no comment on that aspect of this appeal, but I share Galobtter's concerns about copyright and I object to the block being lifted for that reason. Her most recent addition of over 500 bytes of text to an article (this edit to Jay Ruderman on 19 October) contains pretty clear-cut close paraphrasing from this source. Looking back a bit further, I found this edit to Israel–Mauritius relations on 29 August, which contains several sentences that are extremely similar to sentences from this source. Her appeal doesn't even mention copyright or the 2500-page CCI that's recently been opened, so I cannot support an unblock at this time. edited 04:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC) — SamX [talk · contribs] 03:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @SamX: What parts of those two edits (Special:Diff/1180913949, Special:Diff/1172817211) are close paraphrasing not covered by WP:LIMITED? Levivich (talk) 03:31, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Levivich: Thanks for asking. I've provided an analysis of the diffs, with matching text in bold:
Source:
Article:This philosophy is embodied by a December 2021 initiative in which four of Israel’s five major television broadcasting and production companies (KAN, Reshet, HOT and Yes) signed the foundation’s pledge to audition actors with disabilities with each new studio production. The companies also committed to a more inclusive selection process for all jobs across the film industry, on and off screen.
Analysis: Not a word-for-word copy, but pretty close. Several matching excerpts of the passages (In December 2021, he convinced four of Israel’s five major television broadcasting and production companies to sign the Foundation’s pledge to audition actors with disabilities and commit to a more inclusive selection process for all jobs in the film industry, on and off screen.
on and off screen
, for example) are not strictly necessary to convey the underlying meaning and are therefore considered creative expression.
Rewrite:In December 2021, he convinced four major Israeli broadcasting corporations to improve civil rights within the entertainment industry for people with diabilities.
Source:
Article:...deported to Mauritius, where they spent the rest of the war in a detainment camp in Beau Bassin. [...] The men were held in a former jailhouse and the women in adjacent iron huts. [...] In all, 128 prisoners died in the camp and were buried in the "Jewish section of the cemetery of St. Martin," approximately a mile away from the campsite. [...] Another special ceremony was held in May 2001 by the South African Jewish community to unveil 66 graves. A visit to the prison and a Shabbat service and dinner were attended by the small Jewish community, Jewish tourists, and former detainees. The delegation also met with President Cassim Utim of Mauritius. [...] In 1960, Israel gave Mauritian students scholarships to study medicine in Jerusalem. After independence, full diplomatic relations were established and Israel's ambassador in Tananarive (Malagasy) served as non-resident ambassador to Mauritius. [...] In 2000, Rabbi Silberhalft officiated at the first bar mitzvah in Mauritius since World War II.
Analysis: Pretty blatant close paraphrasing. Some of the sentences meet WP:LIMITED in isolation, but the volume of text copied makes this a serious violation. Rearranging the order of the more or less identical sentences is a small step in the right direction, but it's nowhere near enough to make this acceptable.In the 1960s, Israel granted Mauritian students scholarships to study medicine in Jerusalem. After independence, full diplomatic relations were established and Israel's ambassador in Tananarive (Malagasy) served as non-resident ambassador to Mauritius.
In a crack-down on illegal immigration during the British Mandates, Jews from Vienna, Danzig and Czechoslovakia seeking to immigrate to Palestine were deported to Mauritius. They were interned in an detainment camp in Beau Bassin. The male detainees were held in a former jailhouse and the women in adjacent iron huts. 128 prisoners died in the camp and were buried in a Jewish section of St. Martin cemetery, approximately a mile away from the campsite. In 1958, the cemetery was acquired by the Jewish community. In May 2001, the South African Jewish community held an unveiling there for 66 graves, followed by a visit to the prison and a Shabbat service and dinner. The Jewish delegation that attended this event also met with President Cassim Utim of Mauritius.
Rewrite:The relations between the State of Israel and the Republic of Mauritius were officially established in 1968, right after Mauritius gained its independence. Mauritius cut off relations with Israel due to the Boycott of the Sub-Saharan African countries, but re-established them on 30 September 1993.
In a crack-down on illegal immigration during the British Mandates, Jews from throughout Central Europe seeking to immigrate to Palestine were deported to Mauritius, where poor living conditions resulted in 128 deaths. A memorial service was held in May 2001.
The first Bar Mitzvah in Mauritius since World War II was celebrated in 2001.
You may have noticed that my rewritten passages are much shorter than Gilabrand's initial edits. This is both intentional and desirable—we have a mandate to summarize sources, not include every single detail from them. The former is much easier to do without violating copyright. edited 05:09, 6 November 2023 (UTC) — SamX [talk · contribs] 04:55, 6 November 2023 (UTC)- I very much appreciate the time you took to write such a thorough explanation -- thank you. Unfortunately I disagree quite strongly with your analysis. What you describe as copyvio, I see as simple editorial judgment. There is nothing copyrightable about a phrase like
four of Israel’s five major television broadcasting and production companies to sign the Foundation’s pledge to audition actors with disabilities
or even a full sentence likeAfter independence, full diplomatic relations were established and Israel's ambassador in Tananarive (Malagasy) served as non-resident ambassador to Mauritius.
Those are straightforward factual statements; they are not creative expressions, they just convey facts. Even in the aggregate, it's just a few facts. - As for "too much detail," I disagree there, too. I think your rewrites omit significant detail. For example, in the first one, the rewrite omits "across the film industry" and "on and off screen," and in the second one, it omits the scholarship and a bunch of detail about the detainment and internment (not just deportation) of the 128 who died. So even as an editorial judgment, I disagree that the rewrites are an improvement.
- Stepping back, you're suggesting you want to indef an editor because they included too much factual detail from the source? I can't get on board with indef'ing someone because they were too accurate and used WP:LIMITED too much.
- This is a situation of copying phrases and so far I've seen one complete sentence copied, all still WP:LIMITED. If an editor is copying entire paragraphs verbatim, entire pages, then yes, that's too much. Or if they're copying creative expressions, no matter how short, fine. But these examples are just factual statements, of the kind described by WP:LIMITED. I don't see how it benefits the encyclopedia to indef an editor who makes the edits given as examples here. Levivich (talk) 06:21, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- We clearly have fundamentally different opinions on what is and isn't a copyright violation and how to properly respond to copyright violations. I've said my piece and will now disengage. — SamX [talk · contribs] 07:32, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I very much appreciate the time you took to write such a thorough explanation -- thank you. Unfortunately I disagree quite strongly with your analysis. What you describe as copyvio, I see as simple editorial judgment. There is nothing copyrightable about a phrase like
- @Levivich: Thanks for asking. I've provided an analysis of the diffs, with matching text in bold:
- If you'll allow me to comment in this section, if she is going to remained blocked for copyvios then the block log/aelog should reflect that, because as it stands she is blocked with a type of block that contains heightened requirements for lifting, and a copyvio block would not have those requirements. nableezy - 03:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Copyvio blocks have very different heightened requirements for lifting, but that seems like a reasonable suggestion if there's consensus that a block is unnecessary from an AE standpoint. If that ends up being the case, I'd ask the closing admin to consider reducing the block from sitewide to the draft and article namespaces only so that she can help out with the CCI. — SamX [talk · contribs] 04:03, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @SamX: What parts of those two edits (Special:Diff/1180913949, Special:Diff/1172817211) are close paraphrasing not covered by WP:LIMITED? Levivich (talk) 03:31, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I try very hard to stay away from ARBPIA and related topic areas and offer no comment on that aspect of this appeal, but I share Galobtter's concerns about copyright and I object to the block being lifted for that reason. Her most recent addition of over 500 bytes of text to an article (this edit to Jay Ruderman on 19 October) contains pretty clear-cut close paraphrasing from this source. Looking back a bit further, I found this edit to Israel–Mauritius relations on 29 August, which contains several sentences that are extremely similar to sentences from this source. Her appeal doesn't even mention copyright or the 2500-page CCI that's recently been opened, so I cannot support an unblock at this time. edited 04:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC) — SamX [talk · contribs] 03:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I have no real issue with the block itself. But I don't understand why the blocking admin who passed RFA in August saying they would not feel comfortable making AE blocks has now decided to start making them less than three months later. Jenks24 (talk) 23:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'd overturn the block. Look at the block log. Blocked once in 2021. Prior time was 2016. People are saying, like, if two temp blocks didn't stop this disruption... well, it was two temp blocks over 7 years!. FFS. You really think you're going to block someone once, and then, what, they'll never screw up again? Seriously? Is warning a user, you know, three times in 7 years... is that too many warnings? Come on. Yes, those edits were obvious violations of the TBAN. No, they did not deserve an indef. They should have been warned and asked to self-revert. Now, if there had been a warning in the past 3 months, or 6 months, then yeah, a block. But I don't see anything that recent, if the last warning/block was a year or more ago? Warn again. (Also, I have to agree with Jenks, TLC, why is your name in the AE log multiple times already? Why not gain some experience commenting at AE first, before indef'ing people?) And, please, folks, don't say "they've been blocked twice" if you're talking about a 7-year period... really, the time frame matters. It just comes across as ridiculous when they act like something that happens twice in 7 years is a frequent or reoccurring problem. Levivich (talk) 03:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Also, I checked the three example diffs in the CCI request and don't see any copyvio there. Maybe there's some clear copyvio in a revdel'd edit I can't see or I'm otherwise missing something, but I haven't yet seen an example of clear copyvio, so I would not support keeping Gilabrand blocked for that reason, either. Levivich (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I can't speak to the other examples, but for this diff linked there, the edit is:
Avocados are a major "money spinner" for Israeli agriculture, with almost half (45 per cent) being sold abroad.
- The source is:
Avocados are a major money spinner for Israeli agriculture, with almost half (45 per cent) being sold abroad.
- You cannot be seriously arguing that it's not a copyright violation because of the addition of quotes. And WP:LIMITED is not a license to copy straight from the source (and certainly if I was going to write in my own words I would exclude the unencyclopedic phrasing of "major money spinner"). Galobtter (talk) 03:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am seriously arguing that. Look, you can write it as
...and that would be fine. Changing "major source of revenue" to "'money spinner'", with quotes, doesn't suddenly make it copyvio. WP:LIMITED is a license to copy the source, because sometimes, there are limited ways to say something. Not every sentence is copyrighted... only creative expressions. Levivich (talk) 03:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)Avocados are a major source of revenue for Israeli agriculture, with almost half (45 percent) being sold abroad.
- I am seriously arguing that. Look, you can write it as
- Shmeh, I'm going to rant a little bit more about why I think this block should be overturned. It's not policy, but I think admins should go through this checklist when deciding whether to block somebody:
- Is the editor harming other editors? Are they harassing, threatening, making personal attacks, etc.?
- Is the editor harming readers? Are they vandalizing, hoaxing, misrepresenting sources?
- Is the editor harming the editing process? Are they edit warring, bludgeoning, are they making it more difficult for others to use this website?
- Is this editor violating some rule but not doing any of #1-#3 above? If so, don't stop this editor from editing, just tell them to stop doing whatever it is they're not supposed to be doing. You don't have to tell them all the time, but you may have to tell them more than once, even more than once per year.
- This seems like a #4 situation to me. Levivich (talk) 03:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Also, I checked the three example diffs in the CCI request and don't see any copyvio there. Maybe there's some clear copyvio in a revdel'd edit I can't see or I'm otherwise missing something, but I haven't yet seen an example of clear copyvio, so I would not support keeping Gilabrand blocked for that reason, either. Levivich (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse block these are bright line violations of their topic ban. On top of that, the unblock request comes only a matter of days after a CCI investigation was initiated. The unblock request reads to me as they are such a prolific and valuable editor, how dare they be blocked? There does not appear to be a genuine commitment to avoid activities that led to the block. They write
Since my edits often involve topics related to Israel and Israeli people, I occasionally encounter gray areas requiring judgment calls
. They ought to be committing to avoiding all gray areas entirely if they are serious about contributing constructively, simply saying they will take greater care to avoid them is not convincing. On the CCI, there are examples of blatant copying directly from sources, I'll reserve judgement until the investigation is completed but it does not inspire confidence in their contributions. Polyamorph (talk) 07:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC)I'll reserve judgement until the investigation is completed
– Ideally we'd be able to do that, but CCIs sometimes take over a decade to complete. — SamX [talk · contribs] 07:37, 6 November 2023 (UTC)- Ah...well the examples I've seen, including those you provided, are blatant violations. So maybe my judgement is not so reserved! Polyamorph (talk) 07:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not involved with the AE block and have no opinion on it. Irrespective of the outcome of the AE appeal, they should have copyright problems added as a reason or reblocked for copyright problems as documented above, depending on the outcome. To be clear: the unblock appeal predates the opening of the CCI but not the request, and has been revised since the opening of the CCI. MER-C 17:36, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- (Uninvolved): Someone else needs to adopt this block. Leeky said during her RfA that she wouldn't make AE blocks. That's the kind of commitment she ought to be very mindful of.—S Marshall T/C 17:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- In point of fact, she did not say she would never make AE blocks. She said "I wouldn't feel comfortable jumping into AE blocks", which I take to mean she would not turn up there guns blazing immediately after a successful RfA. She now has some experience under her belt, and presumably her comfort level has changed. That's perfectly allowed. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm curious what lack of experience that would make someone uncomfortable making AE blocks in August, could possibly be cured by October? What happened in September that granted said experience? It wasn't editing AE. RFA ended Aug 17. She made one AE report on Oct 5 -- first edit to AE ever -- and then indef-tban'd one editor and indef-blocked two more, all in October, all AE actions. Fast learner! This is particularly egregious for a candidate who said in Q1 that she wanted to work in DYK (and mentioned nothing else), and in Q6, the "what else besides DYK?" question, said "I'm not going to use the tools to dive headfirst into the water of a new area," yet that's exactly what she did. And: "I think it goes back to knowing your limits: For instance ... I wouldn't feel comfortable jumping into AE blocks". AE blocks is the only example she gave of something she wouldn't feel comfortable doing... less than two months later, after making one AE post, she feels comfortable making AE blocks. I'm sorry to call you out like this TLC, but you broke a promise here. Unfortunately, not the first or last new admin to do this. The kind of experience I would have expected: participating in a good number, like at least a half dozen, AE threads, without taking any unilateral action, just to make sure that your understanding of AE sanctions is in line with community consensus. Only then should you take unilateral action, starting with really clear examples. Only after taking a good amount of obvious unilateral AE actions, should you begin to take unilateral AE actions in more complicated or controversial cases... like indef'ing somebody who's been here 3x longer than you and has made 2x the edits, for example. Levivich (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- All I can say is that your arbitrary rules for what make someone experienced enough to feel comfortable making an AE block are just that - your arbitrary rules. We should debate this block on the merits, not on whether leek is violating an arbitrary set of personal standards or violating a commitment she didn't actually make. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:00, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I agree there is no basis to demand that Theleekycauldron not make AE blocks, or this one, presumably she has since her RFA gained enough experience to feel comfortable making them. You can disagree with that, but that disagreement should happen on her talk page, and it has nothing to do with Gilabrand's appeal. nableezy - 18:02, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's rather important that we can rely on the representations people make in their RfA. If what someone says to get the mop isn't enforceable a scant three months later, then that might just be a smidge problematic, wouldn't you say? This point is self-evidently material to Gilabrand's appeal.—S Marshall T/C 20:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Everything about this argument is absurd. If you have a substantive objection to the block per se then make it, if you want to argue about admin accountability in general or in a particular instance do that somewhere where it would be on-topic. --JBL (talk) 20:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- @S Marshall: I think you may have misread what leek wrote? Above you claim that she "said during her RfA that she wouldn't make AE blocks". But as PMC highlights in her response, that's not what leek said. Leek said she "wouldn't feel comfortable jumping into AE blocks". Is 2 months "jumping in"? I don't know, she made at least 128 admin actions in her primary area of focus in those 2 months, plus many WT:DYK comments and WP:ERRORS comments in an admin capacity, making her one of the most active Main Page admins; 19 days after the block of Gilabrand, this continues to be her overwhelming focus as an admin. To me that looks like she took her time before leaving her comfort zone. As JBL says, this is probably better discussed elsewhere, since "I don't think the block should have been made by this admin" is not one of the three listed reasons to overturn an AE block (unless INVOLVED or TBAN applies). But I do think it's important that we be clear here on what was said and what wasn't. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 20:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Is 2 months "jumping in"?
Yes, especially when you start with indef'ing editors as AE actions. 128 admin actions is a lark, look at the block log. Look at the AE log. Look at AE edits. It's like 10 vandal blocks, and then straight to indef'ing people as an AE action. That's jumping straight into the deep end, and here we are, this the second AE indef. No admin's second indef should be an indef of someone who has 17 years/75k edits. Shit, she could have at least waited for the AE case to close. And yes, she did say she at her RFA that she wouldn't do this exact thing: she wouldn't dive straight into unfamiliar waters, such as making an AE block. (A very overly-harsh indef of someone who has volunteered twice as much time as she has, because they made good edits that were in violation of a many-years-old TBAN.) Levivich (talk) 22:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)- In this respect I differ from Levivich. I feel that the block should be adopted by someone else, but in all the circumstances I don't feel that the block was too harsh.—S Marshall T/C 22:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- You keep saying the quiet part out loud about tenure, Lev. I guess that's better than dog-whistling it. Regardless, please stop filibustering. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 23:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- This was a very obvious block that any admin could have made. Indef vs a very long definite duration was a judgement call but either was valid and the result is likely to be the same in the long run. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:15, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- There's no need for snark or hostility Tamzin. What she said in her RfA, and her admin log, are a matter of record, not opinion. And yeah, admins shouldn't sanction experienced editors willy nilly, that's not "the quiet part," that's just common sense. You're welcome to disagree but don't act like I'm doing something wrong ("saying the quiet part out loud," "filibustering") just because I have a different view of things than you. Levivich (talk) 15:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Levivich, if you want to play the edit count game, you have more edits to AN and AN/I than you have non-automated mainspace edits. Do you see how that would maybe contribute to an impression that you are bludgeoning a thread that you know has no chance of going the way you want? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 16:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Wow now you're going personal? Yikes. It's not about edit count. It's about not indef'ing someone who dedicated years of their life to volunteering here just because they made a *gasp* third tban violation in seven years. That's overly harsh. You have made more than 3 mistakes in 7 years. So have I. Don't throw people off the website for making 3 mistakes in 7 years. It's not a crazy suggestion. But go ahead, keep attacking me for it. 👍 Levivich (talk) 16:22, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- This is a matter of record, Lev, not opinion. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 16:29, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Wow now you're going personal? Yikes. It's not about edit count. It's about not indef'ing someone who dedicated years of their life to volunteering here just because they made a *gasp* third tban violation in seven years. That's overly harsh. You have made more than 3 mistakes in 7 years. So have I. Don't throw people off the website for making 3 mistakes in 7 years. It's not a crazy suggestion. But go ahead, keep attacking me for it. 👍 Levivich (talk) 16:22, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Levivich, if you want to play the edit count game, you have more edits to AN and AN/I than you have non-automated mainspace edits. Do you see how that would maybe contribute to an impression that you are bludgeoning a thread that you know has no chance of going the way you want? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 16:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's rather important that we can rely on the representations people make in their RfA. If what someone says to get the mop isn't enforceable a scant three months later, then that might just be a smidge problematic, wouldn't you say? This point is self-evidently material to Gilabrand's appeal.—S Marshall T/C 20:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm curious what lack of experience that would make someone uncomfortable making AE blocks in August, could possibly be cured by October? What happened in September that granted said experience? It wasn't editing AE. RFA ended Aug 17. She made one AE report on Oct 5 -- first edit to AE ever -- and then indef-tban'd one editor and indef-blocked two more, all in October, all AE actions. Fast learner! This is particularly egregious for a candidate who said in Q1 that she wanted to work in DYK (and mentioned nothing else), and in Q6, the "what else besides DYK?" question, said "I'm not going to use the tools to dive headfirst into the water of a new area," yet that's exactly what she did. And: "I think it goes back to knowing your limits: For instance ... I wouldn't feel comfortable jumping into AE blocks". AE blocks is the only example she gave of something she wouldn't feel comfortable doing... less than two months later, after making one AE post, she feels comfortable making AE blocks. I'm sorry to call you out like this TLC, but you broke a promise here. Unfortunately, not the first or last new admin to do this. The kind of experience I would have expected: participating in a good number, like at least a half dozen, AE threads, without taking any unilateral action, just to make sure that your understanding of AE sanctions is in line with community consensus. Only then should you take unilateral action, starting with really clear examples. Only after taking a good amount of obvious unilateral AE actions, should you begin to take unilateral AE actions in more complicated or controversial cases... like indef'ing somebody who's been here 3x longer than you and has made 2x the edits, for example. Levivich (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- In point of fact, she did not say she would never make AE blocks. She said "I wouldn't feel comfortable jumping into AE blocks", which I take to mean she would not turn up there guns blazing immediately after a successful RfA. She now has some experience under her belt, and presumably her comfort level has changed. That's perfectly allowed. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse block In addition to the present block, the editor's blocklog is extensive - the editor suggests that they needed warnings? These were bright line violations and as Galobtter has said above, "If two three-month blocks have not changed things, I'm not sure what we can do other than an indefinite block." I do not see Leeky's statement at their RFA as a prohibition against using the tools here. Leeky clearly did not "dive headfirst" instead they made a careful decision. Regarding Gilabrand , it defies belief to say that this editor with multiple blocks and bans and 72k edits does not know where the line is. This is an example of escalating consequences. Lightburst (talk) 18:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse a block, indef is too long 3 months (again) would have been enough. 6 months would have been fine. We are looking at someone who was blocked in 2021 and before that 2016. Yes, they are probably gaming the system. But long blocks seem to mostly work and we get a fairly strong contributing editor. I think jumping to indef was overkill. Hobit (talk) 04:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indefinite is not infinite. I for one would be willing to entertain an unblock request in six months or a year or so. But indefinite forces some sort of commitment to change. It can't just be waited out. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- I get that, but if someone is regularly contributing productively for a year, then is troubled for a month, then blocked for 6 months, I think it's still a net improvement. I will agree this was clearly done knowingly. Still feels like too much to me. Hobit (talk) 17:52, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indefinite is not infinite. I for one would be willing to entertain an unblock request in six months or a year or so. But indefinite forces some sort of commitment to change. It can't just be waited out. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly support lifting of block. Gila has contrbuted to Wikipedia in ways that most of us can only dream of. She was limited to edit in certain topics and has followed these guidelines. She adds both new content and edits existing content and adds images. I don't think the edits provided by theleekycauldron constitute a violation of these guidelines and even if they are in the gray area - a warning would suffice. We should certainly not deny ourselves of Gila's additions to the sum of the World's knowledge. Thank you, Atbannett (talk) 10:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Again, no comment on the block itself, but I agree with Tamzin, PMC et al. that leek did not "jump into AE" and that such claims are very poor arguments for an unblock. — SamX [talk · contribs] 15:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- +1. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Upon further review, I now oppose lifting the AE block. A warning would have been appropriate if this had been the first or maybe second violation, but that's not the case here. By my count, Gilabrand has been blocked eleven times (!) for various violations of ARBPIA editing restrictions. Editing restrictions are not free, and policing someone who can't be trusted to abide by a topic ban violation is a burden on the resources of our already-strained administrative corps. I do not consider edit count or length of tenure to be mitigating factors, either in principle or in this particular case. If anything, I consider them to be aggravating factors. Anyone who has been around for eighteen years and made 72,000 edits should be well aware that edits such as this and especially this fall squarely within the ARBPIA topic area. If Gilabrand really doesn't understand this, she lacks the editorial judgement necessary to contribute to Wikipedia. Her unblock request doesn't convince me otherwise. — SamX [talk · contribs] 16:59, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly support the lifting of block - I remember Gilabrand from the start of my time in wiki, in regards to art. I remember gilabrand was always out there verifying and checking that everything was cited, super active on almost of single page related to Jewish Art and culture that I visited. I considered the user one of the most serious Wikipedians out there, I think the user has been active for 15 years or more? I'm not too familiar with the prcoess but Gilabrand has has had a huge contribution to Wikipedia and to knowledge people have. I've seen gilabrand expand on so many topics. I think it would be a big loss to block the user from Wikipedia, certainly a loss for Wiki. In regards to the things presented above, perhaps a warning would have sufficed or a temporary topic ban from big contentious articles? From what I saw above it seems gilabrand's arguments were perhaps not the best. Nonetheless I think blocking such a user would be a loss for world knowledge, the user has obviously given so much of him/herself/theyself for Wikipedia. I really think it would be a big loss. Homerethegreat (talk) 17:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse with modifications - Indefinite seems like a serious over-reaction here. Maybe, as was suggested above, 6 months? Blocks should be preventative, and an indefinite block in this instance rubs off more like a punitive measure than preventing some sinister activity from occurring. EggRoll97 (talk) 04:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly support the lifting of block - It came as a surprise to learn that this user, a frequent and valuable contributor for over 15 years, was blocked. Her efforts in enhancing the coverage of numerous topics related to Art, History, Geography, Technology, as well as WP:ISRAEL and WP:JUDAISM, including through many original photo contributions, should not be ignored. Honestly, I have not observed any grave violations in her conduct. Her call to 'weigh the positive against the negative' strikes a chord - I recommend to re-evaluate this excessively harsh decision and consider the overall positive impact of her contributions (72,488 edits!) as well as her promise to be more careful in the future. Hmbr (talk) 14:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Hmbr: This is your 4th edit since 2 February. Can I ask what brought you to this thread? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 16:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Discussion of close
- ScottishFinnishRadish, could you provide some analysis? I'm not sure I'm understanding the consensus you're seeing. Valereee (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Numerically speaking, there is stronger support that the block is reasonable. Down weighing arguments that cite the blocker, rather than the block, and looking at the response that calls for the block to be assumed by another admin, tacitly approving of the block itself, as an endorsement it's a fair consensus. The endorsements that carried it the length still provide support for the block itself, and are partially rebutted by noting that indefinite isn't infinite. There was little in the way of how the block was inappropriate per CTOP/AE blocking policy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- I did a count because I quick reading of the situation was that there were numbers to overturn/reduce, a quick count gets me:
- Overturn/reclose due to issues with the closer (2): Jenks24, S Marshall
- Overturn on the evidence (5): nableezy, Levivich, Atbannett,Homeerethegreat, Hmbr
- Shorten (2) Hobit, EggRoll97
- Endorse (6) Supreme Deliciousness, HJ Mitchell, Galobtter, SamX, Polyamorph, Lightburst
- Endorse for copyright reasons only I think (1): MER-C.
- I think that even if you drop Jenks24 and S Marshall and count MER-C, you've got 7 to 7. I think 7 to 6 !voting to reduce or overturn vs. endorse is probably a fairer reading, and 9 to 6 or 9 to 7 is probably how I'd count it. So basically, ScottishFinnishRadish I think you're wrong about the numeric support unless you're discounting !votes for some reason (those involved in ARBPIA getting less weight?). Could you explain a bit more? Hobit (talk) 20:29, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- I apologize for my lack of clarity in the above statement. I was taking my lunch break and had limited time, and I wasn't expecting that this close would be contentious or I would have waited and given a more typical long-winded closure. The biggest clarification I can make is that I should have said
Numerically speaking, there is stronger support that
To give a more thorough explanation of my closure I was looking at four supporting an overturn, six supporting a block, and two others tacitly supporting a blockthea block is reasonable.I have no real issue with the block itself... I don't feel that the block was too harsh.
. That's a pretty solid numerical advantage. Even removing the conditional endorses, which I still believe support a block more than an overturn, it's four to overturn, six endorsing, two endorsing a block if not this specific block. I left out Nableezy and Supreme Deliciousness as this is a consensus of uninvolved editors. - Now numerically and taking the strength of arguments into consideration there is a very clear consensus that a block was appropriate in this situation. Looking further into that to suss out if there's further consensus, we have six editors endorsing the block, and two editors endorsing a block, just not indefinite. The position that a limited block would have been better was rebutted in part by others, pointing out that they could appeal in the future because indefinite blocks are not infinite.
- As there was little in the way of actual policy issues with the block brought up in the discussion, with much of the opposition hinging on their contributions rather than demonstrating that the block was placed in error or there were other issues with the block it seems clear to me that the consensus of the discussion as a whole is that the block was appropriate.
- To add a bit more, I closed it this way as opposed to the much easier "There is no clear consensus of uninvolved editors to overturn" because I did see a positive consensus in the discussion that the block was appropriate and that theleekycauldron was fine in placing the block. I hope that sufficiently clarifies the closure, but if there are any more questions you know where to find me. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Noting that, independent of what SFR has said above, I have sent ArbCom evidence that Hmbr and Atbannett's !votes constituted meatpuppetry / proxying on behalf of a banned/blocked user. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 22:17, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the detailed response. I'm a bit frustrated that you treated by !vote as an endorsement of the outcome when I thought I was really clear that wasn't where I was. I'm sorry to bug you again, ScottishFinnishRadish, but what words should I use next time to make it clear that I felt that indef should be overturned? Hobit (talk) 02:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- Your statement was an endorsement of a block. You made it clear that you thought that that an indef was too long. I covered that with
we have six editors endorsing the block, and two editors endorsing a block, just not indefinite. The position that a limited block would have been better was rebutted in part by others, pointing out that they could appeal in the future because indefinite blocks are not infinite.
I guess if you wanted to be more explicit you could have gone withOverturn to a long duration block
, although my reading would still have been the same. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 03:09, 11 November 2023 (UTC)- Thanks, I thought I was clear enough, but I'll strive to be clearer going forward. I also think you've got the count wrong (I see 7 people that !voted to overturn, 2 for reasons that involve who the closer was. You see only 4 that want to overturn), but at this point I don't think it matters. I really do feel you've closed this incorrectly and that your reading is wrong, but I think any attempt to appeal the close would result in "yeah, endorsing the close was wrong, but there was no consensus to overturn so same outcome" and isn't worth doing. Hobit (talk) 22:19, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Your statement was an endorsement of a block. You made it clear that you thought that that an indef was too long. I covered that with
- I apologize for my lack of clarity in the above statement. I was taking my lunch break and had limited time, and I wasn't expecting that this close would be contentious or I would have waited and given a more typical long-winded closure. The biggest clarification I can make is that I should have said
- For reasons I won't repeat because they're at #Request to re-open RFC, we shouldn't close "tied" votes when new votes are still coming in. Two new votes today. Levivich (talk) 21:37, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- As discussion closing principles go, that's much too gameable to contemplate. Nothing about this is a vote.—S Marshall T/C 17:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
0RR appeal
I would like to ask the community to remove the 0RR restriction imposed on me. I received 0RR on March 7, 2023 ([29]), this restriction was reduced to 1RR on July 3, 2023 ([30]), for appreciating my trouble-free editing history. On September 27, however, after my 2nd revert on the Povilas Plechavičius article, I received 0RR again ([31]).
I accept the penalty, but as I explained at the time, this second revert was not a deliberate action, nor the result of edit-warring. It simply resulted from my misinterpretation of what a revert is. My previous edit was removed on the grounds of not providing sufficient sources, thinking that it was not making a revert I restored that edit with the addition of new and better sources. At the time I understood it as simply working together on an article, I did not think it could be construed as acting in bad faith. If I thought otherwise, I simply wouldn't have done it. However, I understand that it was my mistake.
I have since tried to continue editing Wikipedia without making reverts. Basically, it seems to me that given my entire editing history since March of this year, I have proven myself to be a user who tries to avoid conflicts, and if they arise resolve them on the talk page. I understand that the issue of the revert on Povilas Plechavičius casts a shadow over my track record. But given that it was an isolated incident I hope it doesn't completely cross it out. Marcelus (talk) 20:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: At this point I understand a revert as any restoration of previously deleted content, even if this restoration is intended to create a third version of the content, it is still understood as a revert. As in the example I gave, my mistake was that I took into account the context of the previous deletion (i.e. undermining the sources), now I understand that the context does not matter at all. What matters is the mere fact of restoring the previously removed content.
- @Grandpallama, that is correct, everything is in the discussion I linked.
- @Canterbury Tail, I invite you to browse through my edits, mainly from March 2023. Initially, I planned to let go of editing because I found it impossible with 0RR. But then I decided to prove that I can edit within the rules. Therefore, in the list of my edits, you can see a much greater engagement on t/p since then. Even on Talk:Povilas Plechavičius and the related Talk:Lithuanian Territorial Defense Force you will notice that I tried to discuss my propositions of the articles and reach a consensus. Hence my mistake of misinterpreting the situation and trying to restore the content with new sources. However this was the only such situation, in my opinion, it should not invalidate several months of hard work, long discussions, and searching for sources. Marcelus (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Szmenderowiecki: could you point out in which articles I removed "Lithuanian" from "Polish-Lithuanian"? Because I can't think of a single instance of that. I only sometimes insisted on taking into account the Polishness of some characters with mixed self-identification. But not by replacing the word "Lithuanian" but by using phrases like "Polish-Lithuanian" or "Polish and Lithuanian" and so on. Even in this example you gave in your 2022 report, you can see the opposite: I didn't want to remove "Lithuanian" from "Polish-Lithuanian," but rather keep the latter form, which I feel much better describes the identity of Antoni Mackiewicz/Antanas Mackevičius. Marcelus (talk) 15:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Szmenderowiecki: these categories were changed over a year ago from Category:18th-century Polish people by occupation to Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation. This was a misguided move that the nominator himself backed out of. A situation arose that we have categories for 18th-century Lithuanian and 18th-century Polish-Lithuanian people, but no category for 18-century Polish people! I have since tried to reverse this, which you can see here: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_February_19#Category:18th-century_Polish_people_by_occupation. Something you present as my obsession with "nationality," or the drive to "polonize" everything, is simply a concern that there should be categories for Polish people in the 18th century.
- Contrary to what you say, I did not propose to remove the "Lithuanian" part, I only proposed to restore the "Polish" categories and make the "Polish-Lithuanian" categories parent categories of the "Polish" and "Lithuanian" categories. So no "Lithuanian" was never to be dropped. It's all in the discussion you linked: Proposed solution: create a separate category tree for Category:People from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, leaving Polish people category tree untouched and I'm advocating restoring previous state of affairs and creating Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation as a parent category for both. Marcelus (talk) 18:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Comments by involved editors (Marcelus)
- You've failed to notify Callanecc, but I'll do that for you. I've also separated uninvolved and involved editors, as that distinction matters for appeals of AE actions. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 23:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: I waived normal AE appeal rules on my block, in exchange for a 0RR and Marcelus agreeing to mentorship by you. Do you have an opinion on this appeal? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 23:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I was somewhat surprised that at the beginning Marcelus did not seem to understand the concept of a revert well, despite being a moderately experienced editor. I think his understanding is better now, but is it good enough? 1RR would allow us to test it; that said, I'd hate to see him fail this test and get blocked again. But I do not see an alternative, really. If Marcelus says they have learned the lesson(s), well, they are responsbile for their actions and their learning. And we should AGF that editors are trying to honestly improve.As such, I'd support reducing the 0RR (which I consider very tricky) to more regular 1RR and seeing how this goes. In general, surviving 0RR is harder and than 1RR, so I hope things will work out. All that said, I'd caution Marcelus to avoid reverting or ping me on talk page before any revert for double checking, particularly if they made another edit to that article in the prior 24h. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry about that Marcelus (talk) 23:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: I waived normal AE appeal rules on my block, in exchange for a 0RR and Marcelus agreeing to mentorship by you. Do you have an opinion on this appeal? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 23:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I was the user who reported Marcelus to AE for breaking his then 1RR. At this moment I would advice Marcelus to wait longer, preferably 6 or so months before appealing again. It's just too soon at this point. #prodraxis connect 23:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am involved because I filed this 3RR report from July 2022 against this user, from which moment it seems that they have been accumulating more and more edit-warring sanctions. From their contributions, I see that all they are editing is Central-Eastern Europe topics, with a focus on Lithuania and Poland and some of their edits, including to categories, being removals of "Lithuanian" from "Polish-Lithuanian" as soon as August - the reason their first partial ban was introduced in the first place.
- I understand that this topic is a very heated one and there is a lot of fighting about who belongs to whom (for example, I heard one Polish doctor of history say that the Belarusian state media were spinning such a narrative of Adam Mickiewicz that he was "a Belarusian poet writing about Lithuania in Polish" - which kinda demonstrates the fixation some have about nationality in Central-Eastern Europe).
- I would suggest, as a trial, let Marcelus edit areas outside Central-Eastern Europe without restrictions for now and see if they are fine. European football (I see they actively edit about Legia Warsaw)? Fine for me. History of Italy? OK. Maybe they want to translate an article or two about non-Central European countries? Great. There are a couple of great articles in Polish whose English equivalents are not so great. If they get along pretty well in that process, I think that we can loosen restrictions on Central-Eastern Europe based on good prior record or, if few people intervene in the process, great job on article creation/expansion.
- I sadly see little reason to loosen them now. Sometimes you just need a break from what bothers you, and I suggest Marcelus take one for now. Giving them some rope in this case will probably be a not-so-good idea:
If a user has already been blocked numerous times for the same behavior, they've already gotten all the rope they need; the hangman is just asleep at the lever
(emphasis mine). But there are other areas where you will be more helpful. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 14:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)- Marcelus, I was referring to, among other things, your changes to categories on 19 and 20 August of this year where the effect was that you changed "Polish-Lithuanian painters" to "Polish painters". It appears you were reverted after that, because at later dates you started this discussion, also proposing that the "Lithuanian" part be dropped. What I'm saying is that from my vantage point it looks like too much preoccupation about nationalities while what you could do instead was all sorts of things that could have been much more productive.
- You are within your rights to edit in the topic area since you aren't TBANNED, and you are within your rights to propose changes to categories, but I strongly suggest that you consider editing in other areas so that other editors have a record to compare to (e.g. "yeah, I see that they kind of like editing much in these areas and he may be a PITA sometimes, but I saw his brilliant work in, say, 19th century history of Canada and court cases of the High Court of Australia, so I think that he will likely be as productive in other areas, including Eastern Europe").
- 'Cause you know, from your record I think that if you are given another chance and you will still be getting complaints against you at ANI/AN/AE/3RR the next thing they will discuss here is a TBAN. Are you sure you want it? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Comments by uninvolved editors (Marcelus)
- Can you, as completely as possible, describe what your current understanding of a revert is? BilledMammal (talk) 22:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- That's part of the definition, though not the full definition; the full definition of a revert is that any action that reverses or undoes the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, and whether performed using undo, rollback, or done so completely manually.
- I wouldn't be opposed to throwing them some final rope - 0RR is very onerous, and if they violate 1RR again with the justification "I wasn't aware it was a revert" I think it would be justified to just block them for WP:CIR, as if they still don't understand it after this point they never will. I am a little concerned by the broader context, but not enough to oppose this appeal. BilledMammal (talk) 00:03, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Just speaking more generally, perhaps part of the problem is exactly the fact that our definition of what a revert is is convoluted, overly bureaucratic, lawyer-speak, run-on sentence upon run-on sentence, written in as confusing way as possible and you need a graduate degree, four years work experience and three reference letters before you can wrap your head around it? I understand very well that the reason it’s that way is because people try to endlessly find ways to WP:GAME it, so with every innovative excuse something new gets added and tweaked in the definition, but at the same time, the nature of the beast suggests that if someone says “sorry, I just didn’t understood what Wikipedia’s definition of revert is” then leniency and understanding is called for? Volunteer Marek 06:31, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- Important detail left out--you were actually blocked on September 15, as a result of a 1RR violation. That block was only downgraded to a 0RR restriction because another editor offered to mentor you, and the enforcing admins accepted that in lieu of a block and removed the block on September 27. Grandpallama (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- So you've been blocked for edit warring 3 times now. Why would we believe that this time you'll never do it again? Sorry but it's hard to accept. I think you should go 6 months on your current restrictions before requesting an alteration in the terms, the community is already being lenient. Canterbury Tail talk 23:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think BilledMammal has it right, a move back to 1RR seems reasonable given the nature of prior violation. I looked at the original case and I feel the sanctions were probably a bit more than would be expected/needed in that situation, so I'm inclined to cut them some rope... Hobit (talk) 05:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'd advocate reducing the restriction to 0RR on pages within the scope of WP:ARBEE only, and 1RR everywhere else.—S Marshall T/C 15:23, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Looking back, my feeling in the AE thread, based on HJ Mitchell's initial proposal, was that we were reinstating the ARBEE 1RR, not site-wide. Maybe Callanecc can clarify. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 20:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oh... I understood Callanecc's restriction as meaning 0RR everywhere.—S Marshall T/C 21:36, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's only within the Eastern Europe topic area. The wording of the sanction on Marcelus' talk page is Indefinite 0RR restriction in the Eastern Europe topic area. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Then I'd agree with BilledMammal.—S Marshall T/C 08:41, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's only within the Eastern Europe topic area. The wording of the sanction on Marcelus' talk page is Indefinite 0RR restriction in the Eastern Europe topic area. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oh... I understood Callanecc's restriction as meaning 0RR everywhere.—S Marshall T/C 21:36, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Looking back, my feeling in the AE thread, based on HJ Mitchell's initial proposal, was that we were reinstating the ARBEE 1RR, not site-wide. Maybe Callanecc can clarify. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 20:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Portuguese language
There's someone that keeps changing information on the page Portuguese language without changing the sources. It's been going on for days now. Petnog (talk) 07:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Petnog: Has the issue been discussed somewhere? Ideally you would politely provide a reason on article talk regarding why you reverted the IP's edits, and put a message on the IP's talk politely linking them to the discussion and asking them to explain why they think their changes are desirable. If there is no response and problems persist, then post at WP:ANI (this page is not quite correct). Or, rather than posting at ANI, you could ping me from article talk if needed. Johnuniq (talk) 07:35, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's not a registered user. I did say in one of the edit summaries that the information they were changing was referenced, though. Petnog (talk) 09:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- IP editors may not know how to check edit summaries. The edit is not necessarily made in bad faith, given that Languages of South America says Portuguese is second. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 10:10, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Did you verify that the sources support the prose? This source doesn't mention the County of Portugal, and this one estimates 258 million total speakers.Sourced content ≠ verified content. Folly Mox (talk) 04:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Adding to note these are the two sources to the sentences the unregistered editor is changing, by my quick reading not erroneously. Folly Mox (talk) 04:11, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's not a registered user. I did say in one of the edit summaries that the information they were changing was referenced, though. Petnog (talk) 09:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
TheTranarchist Appeal
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Past discussions: • TBAN at ANI (Feb. 18 - Mar. 3) • Close Review (Mar. 4 - 7) • Warning (May 6) / Dispute at ANI (May 6 - 10) • Appeal (May 24 - 28) • Appeal for limited exception (Jun. 2) • 1 week block, ended early (Jun. 14-16)
A quick list of issues people raised in my original ban and subsequent appeal: RGW, SYNTH, RS, issues with BLPs, categorization, being overly verbose, and being too emotional. Since my ban, I've improved on all those fronts. While I previously had a reputation for writing articles with nearly entirely RS, "nearly" was the operative word and not good enough for BLPs, or any article for that matter, so I've since been even more strict with assessing the quality of each source. I've not been accused by anyone of RGW or SYNTH in my editing since my ban. I've been doing quite a lot of categorization/wikidata work and find it relaxing.
In terms of my work since the ban, on enwiki I've mostly focused on NYC history, particularly tenant advocacy (for which I created the NY Housing and Tenant Rights Task Force to better organize efforts to document it) and policing. My works in that vein include: 1904 New York City Rent Strike, 1907 New York City Rent Strike, Urban Homesteading Assistance Board, Crown Heights Tenant Union, Template:Housing rights in New York, and NYPD Strategic Response Group. I also did a lot of categorization work particularly with NYHOUSING. I started uploading public domain images for the 1904/1907 rent strikes on commons, and began uploading more - at this point a few dozen scanned issues of now public domain lgbt magazines (some of which I've scanned from physical archives myself) as well as photos of famous trans people and groups. On eswiki, I wrote es:Historia trans en Brasil from scratch, doing extensive research in English, Spanish, and Portuguese. I've also dabbled a little in fiction with The City We Became and Discworld (world)#Sentient species.
I'm asking that my GENSEX TBAN be moved to a 1RR restriction in GENSEX/AMPOL; 0RR on articles for organizations/activists who are affiliated with anti-transgender activism or gender-critical feminism, broadly construed; and a PBAN from Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull - I want to stick to the less controversial articles covered by GENSEX and want to stay far away from that article because I was careless in sourcing and crude and immature in responding to insults from her and her fans. My editing skills have improved across various categories from categorization to research to sourcing and more and I would very like to put more effort into the WP:USALGBT task force I created like I've done at WP:NYHOUSING and generally improve our articles about LGBT rights/history/historical figures. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Discussion (TheTranarchist ban appeal)
- Support. Seems like a reasonable self-reflection and a reasonable ask. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 16:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'll also support as amended. I will, however, note my reservation with the 0RR imposed. I'm in general not a big fan of 0RR restrictions—I don't see much advantage to them over 1RR in terms of deterring edit warring, and they can wind up restricting the sorts of partial reverts that are often a healthy part of the ordinary editing process. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 04:22, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm going to humbly ask that in the interest of not going off into the weeds that we try to avoid relitigating the original topic ban yet again, and instead focus on this appeal. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Could someone please change the generic sub-heading here to something more specific, so editors don't have to check to know which "Discussion" is hitting their watchlist? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:06, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Make it 0RR with a ban from all biographies of gender-critical feminists, and I'd support.—S Marshall T/C 17:36, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- @S Marshall I don't personally believe that's an appropriate sanction for the reasons below but I see and understand your concerns and updated my appeal to address them.
- 1) Prior to my ban, I watched bio-medical GENSEX articles to prevent pov-pushing, FRINGE content, and non-MEDRS sources and was only praised for that - the ability to revert there is important to my ability to keep our articles up to standard.
- 2) My behavior surrounding KJK did not generalize to my other editing. For context, I wrote the article, it was widely agreed to be NPOV and RS compliant, she and her fans/SPAs began publicly attack me/the article and then the issues began. Namely, I was less careful with ensuring sources are reliable and I mocked her on my talk page and Mastadon. The article was also overly verbose, more of a style/writing issue but one I take seriously. I freely admit such behavior was immature, reflected poorly on me and the encyclopedia, and justifies a PBAN, but I wish to clarify the bad behavior was centered around a specific individual.
- 3) The one thing KJK and I agree on is she's not a feminist. Chloe Cole has, to my knowledge, never identified or been identified as "gender critical" or a feminist. The only gender-critical BLP I edited was Stella O'Malley. Your proposal of "gender-critical feminists" seemed unintentionally narrow, so I added 0RR on organizations/activists notable for opposing transgender rights to my appeal to address the spirit of your request, which I hope you find amenable.
- Best regards, TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:17, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Can we make it anyone who's gender-critical? Not just people who're "notable for" that?—S Marshall T/C 19:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- @S Marshall I've no issues with that, I appreciate your help with the precision! I thought it was implicit in "notable for" which I thought included even "mildly notable", partly because I can't think of any cases where someone notable identifies as GC and doesn't publicly campaign against transgender rights. Would the wording
0RR on articles about organizations/activists who identify as gender-critical or are notable for opposing transgender rights, broadly construed
work? Best regards, TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- @S Marshall I've no issues with that, I appreciate your help with the precision! I thought it was implicit in "notable for" which I thought included even "mildly notable", partly because I can't think of any cases where someone notable identifies as GC and doesn't publicly campaign against transgender rights. Would the wording
- Can we make it anyone who's gender-critical? Not just people who're "notable for" that?—S Marshall T/C 19:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Support the revised proposal. I wanted to make sure people who are notable for things unrelated to gender, but are gender-critical, are within scope.—S Marshall T/C 20:34, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose I would like to see a lot more edits in other areas before this ban is lifted. There's very little here to make the call that the editor has learn their lesson. I'd recommend something more specific on the appeals process so this doesn't keep popping up every few months. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 18:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Nemov Since my ban I've written 5 non-GENSEX articles on enwiki, written a non-controversial and in-depth GENSEX article on eswiki, and uploaded dozens of images to commons (some of which involved me physically accessing and scanning library archives). I've created templates, done extensive categorization work, created a productive task force, and logged roughly 1000 extra edits (roughly doubling my pre-ban edit count). My ban was 8 months ago, and my only appeal (though a 2-parter) was 6 months ago. How long should I have waited for this appeal, how much more editing should I have done, and what lessons haven't I learned? Genuine questions, since I've been trying to improve on all issues raised in my original case and sadly there's no firm guidelines anywhere on what to do in an appeal lol. Best regards, TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is a reasonable request for a deëscalation of a sanction that was always on the heavier side. Recent tweak satisfies my original concern here. Support as amended
except in the new sanction change notable for opposing trans rights to who are affiliated with anti-transgender activism, broadly construed. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 19:47, 12 November 2023 (UTC), ed. 20:07, 12 November 2023 (UTC)- Done: Updated the appeal per your note and S Marshall's - I broadened "anti-transgender activism" to "anti-transgender activism or gender-critical feminism". Best regards, TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support revised proposal, good restrictions as a first step. Time has passed, there is some editing in other areas (though a lot in categories or assessment), but cognizant of the overall edit account of the account. Time to sink or swim. starship.paint (RUN) 02:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support; good self-reflection, and great contributions since then (I checked a few of the articles linked in the appeal). DFlhb (talk) 09:25, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support. I think the appeal indicates willingness to show an abundance of caution, and that is more than sufficient. Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support - Absent any compelling evidence of continued willful disruption, we ought to lean on the side of second chances more often than not. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 19:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support - This seems like a reasonable first step after extensive work outside the topic area. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:41, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support This is what I would hope more editors that fall into situations that result in restrictions would do. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support Shows self reflection and a willingness to compromise. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:22, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support Not sure what more we can ask to be done before an appeal. I agree with Red-tailed hawk that I don't see what the 0RR accomplishes. Galobtter (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support I agree this seems like a reasonable ask. I also agree with Red-tailed hawk and Galobtter that a 0RR doesn't really offer any benefits over the broader 1RR that applies to the rest of the topic areas. I think a straight 1RR in the specified areas would be more straightforward, both for TheTranarchist to self-police and for anyone else to enforce, while otherwise allowing regular editing as stated. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support per Sideswipe9th, et al. -- seems like a reasonable appeal, including a demonstrated commitment to topics outside of this one, though I'll admit I felt the breadth of the ban was too severe in the first place. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:59, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support because I opposed the original topic ban in its entirety and would support a total lifting of it. Loki (talk) 03:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support - a very well thought through appeal that recognises the reasons for the original ban and continues to mitigate that problem, while enabling the editor to continue to make valuable contributions to areas they have an interest in. Appeals like this are heartwarming. WaggersTALK 09:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support, and endorsing the comments of Loki and Sideswipe9th — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 16:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support - a well thought out and reasonable request to rescind this TBAN and obviously strong contributions in the interim. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 17:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I support this request, which is certainly ready to be closed! --JBL (talk) 20:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support. When I saw this a moment ago, I was ready to author an epistle in support of this, but seems like that won't be needed. :) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 20:30, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support While I would normally have hesitation given the very limited editing in articles with significant traffic, I think the proposed revert limits should address any reasonable concerns. Springee (talk) 01:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support I originally supported the sanction when first placed, and I still believe it was the right move. After reading this appeal, I believe it is sincere and touches on all the right points that we expect from a ban appeal. I originally suggested taking an article through a GA or FA review to get a feel for sourcing and I would support the eventual appeal, but the content work listed is enough to satisfy me that Tranarchist understands the issues and what kinds of sourcing are needed for a BLP, especially for contentious statements. Personally I'd prefer to see Chloe Cole and Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism added to the voluntary page ban because they were more minor loci of the dispute, but I don't feel strongly enough about that to oppose or set it as a condition. It's always a happy occasion when we can welcome an editor back into a topic area they had issues with, so I'm very willing to extend good faith here. The WordsmithTalk to me 03:54, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please create a redirect from Wikipe-tan to Moe anthropomorphism
That page is salted, but meets criteria for redirect to article namespace (the term is mentioned in the target article). TIA. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Both mentions are uncited and could be removed at any time. —Cryptic 01:03, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Cryptic Fair point, not that I think there is a rule to prevent such redirects. But best solution is to add refs to the article, which I have now done. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- That is the best solution, I think. And there doesn't appear from the logs to have been that much kerfuffle over that redirect since 2007. It's amusing that both of your sources existed at the time of Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2013 December 24. Uncle G (talk) 12:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Right. Although back then folks for some bizarre reaoson wanted a cross namespace redirect from article space to wikipedia space which is generlaly a bad idea. Why nobody suggested a regular redirect but instead folks made a mess that led to this being salted - weird :> Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:57, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- That is the best solution, I think. And there doesn't appear from the logs to have been that much kerfuffle over that redirect since 2007. It's amusing that both of your sources existed at the time of Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2013 December 24. Uncle G (talk) 12:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Cryptic Fair point, not that I think there is a rule to prevent such redirects. But best solution is to add refs to the article, which I have now done. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Could an admin lower the protection level of people search?
It looks like the page people search was put under full protection a decade ago to due spamming issues. However the term [32] [33] [34] is a generic one for websites that compile public records into profiles on individuals, which they sell. Could someone bump the protection down to extended confirmed protection, so I can create a stub for the term? - GretLomborg (talk) 05:27, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Changed to semiprotection, as it seems like the original spammers were all non-autoconfirmed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Jo-Jo Eumerus: I've completely removed the protection, because non-autoconfirmed users can't create articles anyway. Graham87 (talk) 13:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! GretLomborg (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Jo-Jo Eumerus: I've completely removed the protection, because non-autoconfirmed users can't create articles anyway. Graham87 (talk) 13:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- For future reference, requests like this are best made at WP:RPP/D. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
A ban to 104.151.29.180
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This user has recently been vandalizing multiple pages, by blanking them and spamming them with a copypasta. The list includes but is not limited to: The lion guard, The Police,German Empire, and a lot more. Begocc (talk) 13:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Invitation to Test the Incident Reporting System Minimum Testable Product in Beta
Hello Admins, you are invited to test an initial Minimum Testable Product (MTP) for the Incident Reporting System.
Earlier, the Trust and Safety Product team was tasked with building an incident reporting system which aims to make it easy for users to report harmful incidents. We have created a basic product version enabling a user to file a report of an incident, from the talk page where the event occurs.
Because of the key role you play in the reporting and response to incidents on-wiki, your feedback is needed to determine if this starting approach is effective.
Please see our MTP Beta update for a quick guide on how to test and also give feedback.
–– STei (WMF) (talk) 19:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
involved?
I've edited heavily at Ellie Moon and Adult Adoption, both of which are experiencing a lot of what appears to be socking to edit-war. Can I get some opinions on whether I'm involved w/re blocking new accounts as they sprout up and should ask someone else to deal with it, or does it fall under 'any reasonable admin'? Thanks for any input. Valereee (talk) 19:42, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Both semi protected. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:11, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Reporting user who keeps adding flag icons.
User:Vif12vf keeps adding flag icons, removing sourced information and violating the rules such as MOS:Flag#Avoid flag icons in infoboxes. The user is also harassing people.
In this edit, the user calls people gross:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doms_in_Iraq&diff=1185209854&oldid=1185197289
In this edit, the user harasses people and tells them to leave just for adding a refimprove template:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swedish_Americans&diff=1185226362&oldid=1185196486
In this edit, they are removing sourced information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lori_people&diff=1185206192&oldid=1185191419
They keep adding unnecessary flag icons to articles about diasporas: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dutch_people_in_Finland&diff=1185207488&oldid=1185189501 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dutch_Mexicans&diff=1185207534&oldid=1185189468
This is bullying and vandalism. 2600:6C50:7EF0:4A70:71B7:F61C:311B:8977 (talk) 11:43, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- User:Vif12vf is a very experienced editor, so I'd really like to know why they're removing cn and refimprove tags that appear to be completely valid. If they believe there is sockpuppetry involved, then more information is needed. Black Kite (talk) 11:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- You're required to notify the affected user when making a report here. I have done so for you. Reserving an opinion until hearing from Vif12vf. Mackensen (talk) 12:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Using a different IP address is not sockpuppetry, but something that people cannot usually do anything about if they choose not to register. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I will admit being at fault for removing the tags, and have no excuse for that. Regarding the IP-editor though, I would like to direct the attention of Black Kite, Mackensen and Phil Bridger to Bishonens most recent entry on my talk-page regarding this IP-hopper. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 14:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Also just to possibly save some time, the reporter is an IP-hopper accused (not by me) of copy-pasting copyright material into wikipedia, yet who ironically throws a guideline around and treats it like an absolute rule while at the same time breaking one of wikipedia's most important rules. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 15:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I will admit being at fault for removing the tags, and have no excuse for that. Regarding the IP-editor though, I would like to direct the attention of Black Kite, Mackensen and Phil Bridger to Bishonens most recent entry on my talk-page regarding this IP-hopper. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 14:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
User:Jauerback
This editor is clearly deleting confirmed, verified, and proven copywritten images which can only be concluded as a personal reason.
User:Jauerback removing or deleting confirmed content please advise why you deleted content from Dave King (Singer) page about his personal life and marriage to Gina Cavalier on 10/24/1998 where the articles were confirmed and verified by written sources. This can only be seen as personal vandalism. You also protected and blocked the page without giving notice on the contributor's page (barbarellasouth) which is in violation of the Wikipedia rules of ethics. The image present was also proved copyright through wiki commons. Please advise your reasoning for your deletion of this content. Barbarellasouth (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_King_(singer) He was formerly married to Gina Cavalier in a ceremony at A Little White Wedding Chapel, in Las Vegas, Nevada, on October 24, 1998, and divorced in 2005.
Citations regarding divorce date: https://unicourt.com/case/ca-la22-gina-cavalier-king-vs-david-king-776639 https://trellis.law/case/bd424270/gina-cavalier-king-vs-david-king Cavlier discusses marriage of Dave King: [35]https://medium.com/authority-magazine/gina-cavalier-of-the-liberated-healer-5-things-anyone-can-do-to-optimize-their-mental-wellness-575ae62c9130
@Jauerback is vandalising this content even though it's been proven and represented correctly Barbarellasouth (talk) 19:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I've blocked the OP as an obvious sock of Gcavalier.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Shared account User:Castorfacts
The userpage of User:Castorfacts states: It is run by the Fairfax lab
, which seems to imply it being run by an organization, which violates Any user account should represent an individual and not a group
of WP:NOSHARING. But WP:NOSHARING is part of Wikipedia:Username policy, and the username Castorfacts doesn't imply sharing. —andrybak (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2023 (UTC)