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Edit-warring, ownership and censorship by editor Director on the article "Jews and Communism"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I realise it is only a few days since Jews and Communism was last the subject of a discussion here but things nave not improved there,quite the contrary. User Director repeatedly reverts anything that does not meet his approval, often leaving edit summaries along the lines of "achieve consensus" or "discuss on talk page" but there is little point in doing that since the only result will be that he will say something along the lines of "I am opposed" so therefore there is no consensus as far as he is concerned and he will put the article back to his version. Here are his reverts of this last week - Lots of arguments going on about whether to call Karl Marx Jewish, Director insists that his version is the only acceptable one and it must include a statement about his being descended from rabbis - he reverts Pharos -[1] - reverts me with an edit summary "I'm sorry, but I don't see it." [2], reverts user Galassi [3], reverts Galassi again [4], reverts Izak [5], reverts Soman [6], not exactly a revert but re -inserts material removed by Soman [7], reverts Galassi [8], reverts me [9]. The last straw for me, and why I reluctantly come to this massive waste of time board, is that editor Pharos went to a lot of trouble to revise some highly disputed content, listening to what other editors had said, expanded the material and moved it to an appropriate place and Director removed it all, every word.[10] On the talk page he said "I oppose"it, which he obviously believes is a good enough reason why it should not be in the article.[11] Director stated earlier today on the talk page that he believes himself to be facing Americans who have a different understanding of communism than the rest of the world and that he is engaged in a struggle for WP articles to "liberate (themselves) from the shadow of the circus that is American politics."[12] Director has advised editor Galassi to "go away"[13] and to me has suggested that I "take (my) political POV elsewhere"[14]. He has his supporters on the article, he is not the only one reverting others, I have done it myself, there are definitely two very entrenched "sides" on this highly contentious article, but Director refuses to move towards any consensus or compromise. There are some editors such as Pharos and Soman who are "in the middle" of the two sides, one might say, and try to accommodate all views, but Director will censor them too. I believe Director should be prohibited from editing this article, his approach is directly opposite to WP ideas of consensus. I ask that at least he should receive a warning.Smeat75 (talk) 17:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Having looked at the article's revision history, it looks at though the difficult POV-pusher is Smeat75 (though he/she is not alone).

This seems to be a typical edit by Smeat75 and his/her allies.[15] It seeks to erase Karl Marx's Jewishness! The edit summary is "revise to neutral version"!

After Galassi reinserted it, Iryna Harpy reverted it again, saying "Reverted 1 edit by Galassi (talk): Rv Not only are the refs contentious, but have turned the lead into a non-lead WP:POV travesty. See talk page."

Maybe Smeat75 should be given a topic ban.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. I see a tendency by a tag-team of Direktor and Producer to insinuate that Communism is a Jewish invention. Both of them refuse to seek consensus, and cherrypick quotes to push a POV, disregarding the errors in citations which would normally disqualify these citations as RS.--Galassi (talk) 18:49, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Galassi disagrees? Well, Galassi, seeing as how you're the resident edit-warring proxy for Smeat75, with virtually no involvement on the talkpage, pardon me if I don't collapse out of shock.

Galassi's involvement on the article cann be summed up entirely as "revert Director whenever you see him editing". -- Director (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Reply to Toddy1 above - that was cited to a RS that said Karl Marx was a baptized Lutheran and I am far from the only one saying that on the talk page. I kept saying that sentence about Marx should not be in the lead because it was not discussed in the article, against WP:LEAD. Anyway that doesn't matter as Pharos did a lot of work and expanded the Marx information to a neutral and accurate version which I would certainly not have quarreled with, moved it out of the lead and into the body of the article and Director reverted every word, that is why I am here.Smeat75 (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat75, you have conveniently omitted the fact that you'd blanked other RS and overwritten it with as simplistic statement regarding Marx's Lutheran baptism, plus added that he was a 'classic antisemite' based on a single source all compressed into a single sentence. The source for the 'antisemite' allegation was WP:CHERRY based on this Professor of law's credibility having been established within the scope of the area of law, whereas the RS you selected was essentially a personal opinion piece by him which has been widely criticised.

I am in agreement with Toddy1's evaluation. You seem incapable of being able to approach the subject matter in a rational manner, and have demonstrated no interest in even attempting to. You persist in pointing your finger at anyone who doesn't agree with you as being part of a conspiracy of some sort or another, even where there has been no working relationship between contributors prior the recent outbreak of disparate interest groups/POV pushers. I am of the serious opinion that you should be topic banned. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat75 has no regard whatsoever for discussion or consensus, he just thinks those who revert his content blanking should be banned from annoying him. I mean, if he posts enough sections on ANI demanding his opponents be removed from his presence, someone's bound to sanction them, right? I imagine after this, it'll be the turn of Pluto2012, Iryna Harpy, Producer, and all the rest who are opposed to his (frankly nonsensical) edits. Really though, this is basically Smeat75 "dealing" with his inability to push his edits into the article. Neither discussion nor edit-warring helped, how about another "Ban Director!" section? -- Director (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The reason why I brought this here is because you removed painstaking, highly excellent sourced content added by Pharos, not me.[16]. You already tried, and failed, to get USChick, Galassi, Izak and others removed from editing the article, you will not even allow compromises to be made by editors like Pharos who are "in the middle". Smeat75 (talk) 19:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The edit that was removed was introduced without consensus, amid active opposition on the talkpage. The posting editor didn't seem to read the discussion and/or didn't care that elaborating on that topic is opposed on grounds of being miles outside the scope.

I'm sure Pharos was merely doing what he thought was best for resolving the matter, i.e. "resolve the issue by elaborating on it in enough detail". Unfortunately, elaborating on the issue in detail takes us outside the scope. The best thing to do is to leave it out. -- Director (talk) 19:08, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• Note for an admin- I got an edit conflict which I tried to fix and think I inadvertently removed a couple of other comments. I don't know how to try to fix that without possibly messing things up more, can someone look into that. ThanksSmeat75 (talk) 19:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

(Restore EC removed comment) I do not see a consensus for the changes noted by Smeat75. I suggest an RFC be opened, and Smeat75 consider WP:DEADLINE. JoeSperrazza (talk) 2:56 pm, Today (UTC−4)

Further comment: This edit summary [17] is misleading at best. JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, I have to state that the irony of Smeat75's ANI title is too much to keep a straight face over. Given the recent ANI-turned-fiasco over this same article where he declared, "Jews and Communism" is a terrible, terrible article, blatant anti-Semitism imo, unfortunately I did not know about it when it was proposed for deletion, not that it would have made any difference I suppose, but admins are not going to do anything about that. As the AfD failed, there is nothing to do but try to improve the article, hopefully this thread will have brought the article to the attention of others as it did me..., his/her purported interest in 'improving' the article smacks of disingenuousness. My involvement in the article has been limited to keeping an eye out for POV pushes, and I believe I've clearly stated my position more than once as to Smeat75's interest as a WP:COI desire to redact the article into oblivion[18]. The nature of changes to the lead alone were pure POV turning the article into a parody of an encyclopaedic entry per my responses on the talk page [19].

JoeSperrazza, while I can appreciate that you are a neutral editor, I think you may see my concern with envisaging a reasonable, rational RfC if you take a look at the very, very recent ANI, and at the article's corresponding talk page. An RfC can only be viable where those seeking consensus are genuinely interested in developing a good and informative article are the mainstay of such an RfC. Holding an RfC at this point in time will only encourage yet more protracted, convoluted and plain disruptive tracts of WP:IDONTLIKEIT by interest groups antithetical to the existence of the article intent on wearing down good faith contributors. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Expanding on that. Smeat consistently projects onto other users as claiming nonsense like the "first the Jews killed Christ then they killed Christ's representative on earth, the Tsar" [20] and states that users like Altenmann (talk · contribs) and I promote extremist "memes" and push a "straightforward anti-Semitic slur". [21][22] He criticizes others for their wording of sourced information yet his only alternative to throw it straight out the window based on him feeling "disturbed". [23] Smeat clearly lacks the ability to refrain from such absurd behavior and continues to try to associate other users with malicious statements or views in an effort to portray them as anti-semites and get his way. He even employs legal rhetoric and claims that he's stopping users from pushing "libel". [24] --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 09:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

In this edit Smeat75 changed two posts by DIREKTOR, and deleted one by JoeSperrazza and one by Toddy1. He said at 19:48, 19 April 2014 that this was due to an edit conflict. I do not see how that can be true. DIREKTOR you may wish to restore your posts to what they were before Smeat75 changed them.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:32, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Well it was due to me trying to fix something that had happened due to an edit conflict and if I had been trying to do something malicious I don't think I would come back to the page and leave a note to say I accidentally removed some comments, can someone look into it.Smeat75 (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Have you thought of looking at the diff, and changing things back?--Toddy1 (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I did look at it and decided that I did not trust myself not to mess things up even more if I tried to change it back, which is why I left a note asking an admin to look into it.Smeat75 (talk) 20:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I entirely agree with Smeat75. If you look at the article's history page, it's hard not to see the systematic censorship by Director. One example is the section titled "Critical reception and conspiracy theories" discussing analysts of antisemitic conspiracy theories related to the concept of 'Jews and Communism'. Director unjustifiably deleted links and] information from that section, most specifically Template:Antisemitism which he deleted multiple times here, here, and here, claiming the article has to be "part of a series on antisemitism" in order to be included, which every experienced editor (an he's one) knows is wrong, and I have even explained that the article is clearly related to the subject and it's exactly the right place for its use. Yambaram (talk) 12:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Director just continues repeatedly reverting others' contributions (not by me, I have had more than I can stand at that article for a while) with edit summaries such as "opposed to this" - reverts sourced material by Soman - [25] by Soman again - [26] and again [27] - reverts Pharos [28] and pays no attention to any discussion on the talk page (not from me there either in the last few days).Smeat75 (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, reverts another user today [29] with an edit summary "Rv. This recent addition ... is opposed." - translation, Director does not approve of it. "Discuss your edit on talk please." - there would not be any point in doing that, if Director answered at all, he would only say it was not going to be allowed. Why is he permitted to control the content of the article in this way?Smeat75 (talk) 17:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat I'm sympathetic to some of your concerns regarding this article. However, this seems to be a content dispute. Also it appears to me that the very existence of this article bothers you. I understand that too, but apparently that has also been dealt with. Coretheapple (talk) 17:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see any admin action helping the conditions over there, although if the edit warring continues I would consider locking the article so they can either discuss it or do nothing. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 18:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I think that, as in a lot of situations, the article simply needs more eyes focused on it. I have to say that I was surprised the article exists, and after reading it I am even more surprised. It is the kind of article that brings Wikipedia into disrepute. But I just simply am not seeing a user conduct issue here, as far as I can see. Perhaps I've missed it. No, to me there is a deeper problem, which is that one has an article at all of this kind. I thought the top illustration was especially repugnant. Coretheapple (talk) 18:47, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I've just tagged the article for neutrality, as I feel that is the principal problem with the article. Let's see what happens now. I have never edited this article before, so I don't know what the dynamics are. I do know that there is a clear neutrality issue that has not been very clearly articulated. If there are indeed user conduct issues, perhaps they will now emerge. If not, they won't.Coretheapple (talk) 19:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

While I will not plead ignorance to why there are contributors who are overly sensitised to the the subject matter of the topic, Coretheapple, I'm having difficulty in understanding what you are trying to express by stating, "I was surprised the article exists... ... It is the kind of article that brings Wikipedia into disrepute." (sic) There is certainly no lack of research to suggest that it doesn't meet WP:GNG. The only arguments against its existence I've found (including attempts to delete it over the years) are based on perception of communism as being evil, plus censorship based on such articles touching on ticklish topics.

Examining different groups, including the identification of high profile names and brilliant minds behind communism as political/economic/philosophical theory, as being people of Jewish descent (who are still the principal thinkers with whom contemporary, active political parties who have never broken their ties) is less spurious than a ponderous number of Wikipedia articles. If there is any semblance of 'disrepute' in question, I would suggest that it is English Wikipedia's predominant bent towards 'Capitalism → (Representative) Democracy → Not corrupt → Great human rights record → Good vs Communism → Totalitarianism → Corruption → Bad human rights record → Evil' that stands accused of being irrational. Following this line of perception leads to equally badly thought out and emotive reactions as seeing this article as being about 'commies' of Jewish descent → anti-Semitism. What brings Wikipedia into disrepute is knee-jerk reaction self-censorship. Working of the assumption that the article in question is, according to preconceived misinformation and misconceptions about political theory, ipso facto anti-Semitic doesn't even aspire to have anything to do with rational thinking. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by referring to "attempts to delete it over the years." The article was created 27 February 2014, which was two months ago. The rationale for deletion is not that we are sensitive to offending the Jews, but that no reliable sources write about the subject, which is required to meet notablity guidelines. Anti-semites of course write about the subject in fringe literature, that has been mention in reliable sources. and accordingly we have an article Jewish Bolshevism that describes that particular conspiracy theory. Incidentally, anti-semites also connect Jews with capitalism, particularly money-lending and liberalism, so your association does not work. Wikipedia did manage to delete "Jews and money." TFD (talk) 05:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces: I've only just noticed this response you've left for me. Firstly, you'll have to forgive my typo. It should have read as 'over the year'. Secondly, I would suggest that you read my comment with care. Using a leap of faith argument, you seem to have twisted my appraisal of the English speaking Western world's predominantly anti-communist conceptions drummed into us from the moment we comprehend media coverage of politics (and heavily reflected in numerous articles on the subject of politics, economics, interpretations of world events here on Wikipedia by which media sources are deemed reliable on the reliable sources list) into a spurious attempt to tar me with the anti-Semite brush. Your 'incidentally' remark is the association with my point that doesn't work. I sincerely hope that isn't what you were implying. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:31, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm having difficulty in understanding what you are trying to express by stating, "I was surprised the article exists.." Sure, here's what I'm trying to express: I'm surprised the article exists. It is grossly unbalanced, a real disgrace. Hope this helps. Coretheapple (talk) 01:14, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Today's developments - There is a statement in the lead "The philosopher Karl Marx, regarded as the "father of Communism", was Jewish by ancestry, hailing from prominent and historic rabbinic families on both sides." Exactly a week ago user Pharos expanded the main text with more information on his background and a book he wrote about Jews. Director took it out, you can see the squabble we had about it on the talk page. That is the exact reason I opened this discussion at AN/I. Today Pharos reinstated it with an edit summary " re-add Marx subsection opposed by exactly one person - now with strong reference linking On the Jewish Question to Communism" [30], DIRECTOR reverted it with an edit summary "Rolled back non-consensus addition" [31], I put it back with an edit summary "Discuss on talk page!" [32], he immediately took it out again with an edit summary "I did discuss and do discuss. Until there is consensus for this addition I will revert it without fail."[33]. By "consensus" he means "when he approves", which will be never. As Pharos said in the first edit summary, exactly one person, (Director), opposed it a week ago and the same person vetoes it now. It makes me want to edit war and attack the page, yes, it does, it makes me very angry, I have to try to restrain myself, I just do not know how people can read what is going on over at that article and do nothing about it.Smeat75 (talk) 01:30, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Smeat75 that there are user conduct issues. I said otherwise above but after experiencing the talk page for a couple of days I've changed my mind. But let's be realistic: these user conduct issues are not going to be addressed. The fundamental problem with this article is content. There was an AfD in which a majority of editors favored deletion, which indicates, if nothing else does, that this article has a serious existential issue. Coretheapple (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

How can an article have existential issues, Coretheapple?

The outcome of the AfD, as you would well know, is dependent on policy and guideline based arguments, not the number of votes based on objections of an emotive, POV nature. Those who would like to see the article developed in an genuinely encyclopaedic manner are not those who are ensuring that the content is a travesty. Take, for example, Smeat75's recent 'contribution'[34] where, out of the blue, he introduced that Marx was a classic anti-Semite as a neutral(!!!???) version for the lead. If you understand it to be "... grossly unbalanced, a real disgrace." in its current form, I suggest that you go over the history with care and acquaint yourself with which contributors are responsible for it turning into a 'disgrace' before jumping in and tarnishing the reputation of contributors who were not responsible for the aberration that's emerged. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh please. Even a casual reader can see that this article has massive POV issues. Smeat75 is a bit overemotional but he is working very hard to fix its enormous and I think self-evident problems. You seem to view the problems as assets and the efforts to correct them as problems.Coretheapple (talk) 12:00, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Reply to Iryna Harpy - That was an exact quote from Alan Dershowitz, an expert on anti-Semitism. I wouldn't say it was "out of the blue". I should not have put "neutral" in the edit summary, I admit. It was during an edit war that has started up again over that sentence on Marx that Director bans being expanded upon. Coretheapple restored the information added by Pharos since my last post here, Director took it out, I just put it back, no doubt he will remove it again. That change you are referring to from me lasted about two minutes and almost nothing I have put in or taken out of that article has been allowed to remain so you cannot blame me for turning the article into a "disgrace".Smeat75 (talk) 12:08, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

The talk page is almost as much of a shambles as the article. A perfect example is that Smeat75 was just accused of canvassing in this very discussion! Perhaps someone can examine this discussion and find evidence of canvassing here by that editor or anyone. Clearly the article requires outside attention and lots of it, no matter how that might discomfit the editors that have been dominating discussions there and enforcing their will on the text. Coretheapple (talk) 13:42, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I would like to ask an admin about that. Was opening this AN/I really canvassing? Would informing WP Projects about the article be canvassing? Also I have just been accused of making personal attacks - [35]. There are two editors with very similar user names DIREKTOR and PRODUCER and they back each other up often in edits and on the talk page. If you refer to them in the same sentence they will accuse you of implying they are the same person and threaten you with being reported so when I refer to them together I make it clear that I accept they are two totally different editors and then I am told that I am making personal attacks and being sarcastic.[36][37]--Smeat75 (talk) 14:06, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I was asking a rhetorical question when I said "Perhaps someone can examine this discussion and find evidence..." No administrator is going to wade into this thicket. You may want to keep a private record, off wiki, of the various conduct issues that have taken place on that page that amount to WP:OWN, such as false accusations of "personal attacks" for raising content issues and the "formal warnings" that I see emanating from one of the regulars there. One of these days you might need to quote those diffs. Hopefully this article will be put out of its misery long before then.-- Coretheapple (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

No administrator is going to wade into this thicket. - that seems clear. I suppose some of them must have read this thread, but not a one says a word, makes any comment or offers any guidance. They are all waiting for it to just go away I suppose. The talk page of the article is awash with threats of "I'll report you the next time!" "you should be reported" etc over and over, as if such threats of being taken to this board are somehow terrifying, in reality all that happens is that comments sit here until someone closes the thread as "no consensus".Smeat75 (talk) 02:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

These kind of appeals for "help" to targeted like minded users are flat out canvassing. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 08:11, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Anyone who looks at that discussion will see that in the next message I posted there [38] I said "once again I ask you, or Jimbo, or anyone who sees this, to try to help us.Smeat75 (talk) 13:15, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

At that discussion I first said "I hope there will be lots of editors... who see this, go on to look at the article, and decide to help to improve it, or change the title, or delete it, or whatever, but it definitely needs participation from a wide part of the community" [39] and then that specific person expressed his view so I said "come and help us then". I don't call that targeted, or canvassing.If I am wrong maybe an admin will tell me so.Smeat75 (talk) 12:34, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I would point out that I had previously left a message on the talk page of a user who in that same discussion had expressed a strong opinion that the article should not be deleted but the title might be changed, which is a different opinion to mine, asking that he would look at the article and "make suggestions for what should be done" on the article talk page.[40]. I just think the article would benefit from more eyes on it, whether they agree with me or not.Smeat75 (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Also I asked at the NPOV noticeboard if others could look at the article and see what they thought of it, when an editor expressed an opinion I said "come and help us then" there too - [41] If that is some dreadful infraction perhaps an admin will let me know.Smeat75 (talk) 12:53, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Let's not to forget flouting the article's talk page (per WP:TALKNEW) by creating an unacceptable section[42] entitled "Attention new editors to this article and talk page" featuring an equally inappropriate call to arms diatribe as the purpose of the section. You're welcome to keep trying to justify the trail of 'just asking' around you've engaged in but, as has already been noted several times in responses to that section in a variety of contexts, if the number of forums and tone used doesn't add up to blatant canvassing, it most certainly adds up to gaming the system. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:18, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Mediation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Howunusual (talk • contribs) 00:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

What form of mediation would you suggest, Howunusual? The point is that there is nothing to mediate. Smeat75 started an ANI naming another contributor as being the source of the problem with an article that Smeat himself has POV issues with. Smeat's problem with the article is that Smeat is of the opinion that the article shouldn't exist. He has now found himself bogged down in defending himself against his WP:COI involvement, to which he has added violating WP:CANVASS in order to attract as many like-minded Wikipedians as possible, dragging the content of the article down even further than the lower depths it had been degraded to as a result of being turned into a WP:BATTLEFIELD.

There is no question of mediating between this, that or the other party involved. This should have been an ANI looking into Smeat's activities, full stop. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear Iryna, you, like everyone else you are entitled to your own personal POV, but please do not project that onto the rest of the universe you do not like, and hence kindly avoid the melodrama and violation of WP:SPIDERMAN. The ones who instigated this edit war and have run it all along are Users DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) and PRODUCER (talk · contribs) and they have recently faced a block for that, albeit a short one, but well-deserved. So cut the drama and if you wish to edit the article in a calm WP:NPOV manner please do so, otherwise your emotionalism borders on violating WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF and fomenting the very WP:BATTLEGROUND you accuse other hard-working editors of doing. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales discussion and blocks & warnings for DIREKTOR and PRODUCER

NOTE: See the discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 161#"Jews and Communism" article that drew attention to DIREKTOR and PRODUCER who were both blocked, questioned, warned, and unblocked over their tactics at the Jews and Communism article. See User talk:DIREKTOR#Blocked indefinitely, User talk:PRODUCER#Sock puppetry or other close relationship and the admin who did it User talk:Jehochman#User:DIREKTOR and User:PRODUCER. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

So, people using Jimbo's user talk page because they can't get what they want through normal channels, and an admin running in and blocking one side on completely false grounds. This thing is rapidly approaching ArbCom territory. When will people learn that running to Jimbo serves no purpose but to increase drama? Fram (talk) 07:41, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Fram, and feel free to join the debate, even better, please try doing something productive like improving or editing the Jews and Communism article, it sure needs help, I assure you your POV over there would be most welcome. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 09:12, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

No thanks, I don't need the abuse and complaints that invariably follow such articles. The previous discussion about this article that I tried to have with you here (or at AN) recently was more than enough to give me a flavour of the actions there. The frivolous blocks by Jehochman, based on some discussion at Jimbo Waleses, and seemingly unconcerned by discussions at general noticeboards and the like, have only reinforced my extreme reluctance to join the debate. But thanks for the invitation nonetheless. Fram (talk) 09:19, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Fram, I understand you fully, but not all of us can just sit some things out. Methinks though that if someone were writing about anyone's own ethnicity or coreligionists and their associations with a controversial political ideology they too would not have the luxury of sitting it out, at least I think so. Nevertheless your concern is appreciated. You know, I never voted to delete this article. My request was and is very simple, no denial, face the truth but put it in historical context for example perhaps merge it with History of Communism so that it makes sense, not an easy task. And as this debate has dragged on and on, I have often asked myself why User RoySmith (talk · contribs) the non-admin who closed off the original debate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism handing victory to a minority (the vote for deletion was 22 in favor, three to merge into other articles, and 14 to keep see also Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 March 14), making it a "non-admin closure" that was actually never noted, and who allowed this unholy mess to grow like a cancer has never bothered to participate or peek in to watch his gift to WP grow like a festering sore, at least in acrimony between editors. Imagine this article could have been deleted, nipped in the bud, or as I suggested it be redirected and merged with History of Communism, then none of this would be happening now. All the acrimony and argumentation would be channeled into more productive work of genuine article improvement (hopefully). By the way, unlike DIREKTOR or PRODUCER, my style in more than 11 years on WP is never to run to ANI to get my way, no matter how rough the debate because I always feel users should come to some common understandings and work things out on their own. That is why there are talk pages for articles and for users kindly provided free of charge by WP with unlimited gigabyte space on its servers to hash things out by their mature selves. I take my editing seriously and will almost never involve myself in a subject I know nothing about. Anyhow, I am praying and hoping that the acrimony will stop soon, we all know this is not a healthy environment to be on WP. Hoping for the best. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 11:15, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Passover

NOTE to participating and closing admins: The final two days of the Jewish Passover holiday are from Sunday night April 20th, 2014 to Tuesday night April 22nd, 2014, that will make it very difficult for Jewish and Judaic editors to participate properly in this discussion during this time. The post-Passover days are also a traditionally very harried time. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Some initial observations

I haven't had time sufficient to investigate every aspect of the voluminous (and highly vitriolic) back-and-forth above, but I did read Talk:Jews and Communism#Secret police, again in it's entirety, read most of the article and investigated the edit history a little, and its left a strong impression as to which side probably represents the Lion's share of the cause of acrimony there, if what I've seen is indicative of the history there. Initially, reading the first half of this thread, I had a severely amped-up variation of that uncertainty and ambiguity you often have when you try to assess a discussion that has moved from article talk space to a procedural page, there were so many endlessly recursive accusations and counter-accusations involved. But I didn't have to get very far into thread before I began to see severe WP:Battleground behaviour on the part of Direktor and Producer. To be fair, the entire thread is contentious and I actually feel very divided by the content call that was being made there myself and can relate to elements of the auteur duo's arguments as much as those of their (more numerous) opposition. However, what sets them apart is the tone of their arguments. Producer especially comes off as incredibly caustic and personally affronted; from the very start of his involvement in this thread, he seems utterly incapable of reconciling that someone else would disagree with him and he is quite upfront about the fact that he views this opposition as absurd nonsense. That opposition mostly keeps their collective cool and are (relatively) dispassionately removed as they assert their argument -- which it bears repeating, I have middle-ground views on -- and Producer and Direktor remain hostile throughout, and both employ a technique of histrionic threatening of getting a higher power involved on multiple occasions.

Frankly, they are so alike in their indignation, that, taken with other circumstantial evidence, I'd be fairly certain they were mutual socks, but this SPI says that is not the case. Still, they seem to move and take action together and in the case of the discussion I observed, their action seems to be defined first and foremost at displaying outrage at being disagreed with. Perhaps this is simply a case of their being very passionate about the material in question or that baseline discussion there has just become superheated in general -- though given the descriptions given by some of those who have had to edit with them in the past, I doubt it's just a simple matter of either of those factors -- but in any event, there definitely seems an element of WP:OWN at work here. I can't speak to the behaviour just yet of most of the other parties involved in the discussion above, since a majority of them were not involved in that thread or only commented briefly, but at present time I'm seeing Lucas and Spielberg as significant contributors to the bad vibes on that page, regardless of whether their other edits (and reversions) on the article itself are or aren't warranted and regardless of how much they have made themselves available to talk on matters. Frankly I think other contributors there could probably be forgiven for wanting to avoid them at all costs; I wouldn't want to attempt consensus, compromise, and collaboration if I knew such hostility was a given from word go. That's my (admittedly initial) impressions of the situation on that article and talk page, from an uninvolved editor who has no interest of ever getting involved in that quagmire of recrimination. Snow (talk) 10:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I've been referred or inferred by a number of users that I'm an anti-semite, neo-Nazi, white nationalist, KKK member, agenda pusher, ooze prejudice from pores, am affiliated with Stormfront etc. at every possible opportunity and all without any fear of sanctions on their part.[43][44][45][46][47][48][49] Been claimed I push extremist "memes", "lies", "slurs", and "libel". [50][51][52][53][54] Had users criticize content based purely on feelings of being "disturbed" or "uncomfortable". [55][56] Been associated with people who use rhetoric such as "Joos!" and "commies" when I only see these terms of this sort coming from users who supposedly criticize it. [57][58] And had to repeat many times for users to discuss and use the talkpage and not edit war with one liners in summary boxes or throw attacks on the talkpage.[59][60] It gets old, one gets tired of repeating themselves, and given the environment that I am in I'd say I've been pretty patient and calm all things considered.

To add to all this I had then been indef blocked on a hunch by Jehochman (an admin who is personally involved in the discussion and considers the article "ugly bigotry") with an apparent "shoot first, ask questions later" policy. Had him throw a clear CU finding under the bus in favor of believing that some elaborate conspiracy is in play and when asked for evidence as to why I and another user had been blocked, had him "point to long discussions to justify [his] actions" (as one admin put it) or later claim he's "too busy" to do so. [61][62] Only until numerous editors told him how ill-advised such an act and reasoning was did he decide to undo this. [63][64][65][66][67] In the midst of all this I had serious false accusations thrown out liberally at me in the full knowledge that I can't defend myself in any capacity whatsoever while blocked [68] and had backpattery be sent to those responsible for winning the "battle". [69][70] Now I note that you've commended one of these users for this effort despite only having an "initial impression" on the matter. [71] --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 13:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd have to point out though that if they are at times hostile or caustic, it is secondary to having to deal with other editors who...let's be honest here...give every impression that they are there to sabotage the article because they were unable to get it deleted at the recent AfD. I know from experience that it is extremely frustrating to work with others who don't have the same goals as you do, i.e. article improvement. Having different POVs is fine and is to be expected, that's how some of our best articles hit the WP:NPOV sweet spot by having many voices contribute. But here, what it looks like is Producer, Direktor and a few others approach it as "here's a subject that is notable, let's write about it", while others are of the "this is vile antisemitism that personally offends me, what can I do to minimize that?" Tarc (talk) 13:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

PRODUCER refers to "users [who do this or that] ....without any fear of sanctions on their part" and gives a string of diffs, they very first one which is of a user who was blocked because of their edits and actions with regard to Producer and is asking, in vain, for their account to be closed permanently because s/he does not want to participate on a site where one cannot challenge anti-Semitism [[72]. That user has retired from editing this site and I can certainly understand that. I have lost track of how many times PRODUCER has referred to me feeling "disturbed" by a particular aspect of that article, as if that is some sort of trump card showing the irrationality of what he faces, I am not ashamed of feeling disturbed by blatant anti-Semitism. I would point out that that article was quiet yesterday with user Pharos making a lot of edits that no one objected to. Today with Producer's return edit warring has started right back up again. PRODUCER and DIREKTOR should both be removed from editing that article.Smeat75 (talk) 13:54, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Does the possibility exist that that user's claims of antisemitism were found to be a bit...lacking in convincing-ness, if not outright false. Same with the sockpuppet accusations. This project has various forms of dispute resolution and means to deal with problematic editing and editors, but the problem is that most editors do not willingly submit themselves to the authority of others around here. So we have several editors over the years make the sock accusations against Producer & Direktor, the SPI is filed, the SPI is closed with no evidence found. Yet 4 years later, editors still toss the accusation around. Presumably this Atlantictire filed a complaint somewhere such as ANI about the antisemitism he/she perceived, yes? It appears that the complaint was found to be less-than-convincing or credible, thus no action taken against Producer and/or Direktor. Yet the accusation is still tossed around. Do we see a pattern yet? The thing is, very, very few editors enter into our various means of dispute resolution with the honest intention of listening to a 3rd party arbitrate the disagreement; instead, they enter into DR with the expectation that their p.o.v. will be validated. And when it isn't the outrage begins. Tarc (talk) 14:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not making any comment about whether it was right for Atlantictire to be blocked or not, I am just pointing out that PRODUCER said users are free to call him names without fear of sanctions and gives a long string of diffs, the very first one which is of a user who was blocked for calling him names, among other things. Did he think no one was going to look at those diffs to see what they said? It is an obvious lie.Smeat75 (talk) 14:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Well y'know, I could declare right now that I don't want WP:NPA invoked to protect me and say "ok Smeat75, you are free to call me an asshole whenever you like, I won't do a thing". That's all well and good for me and for you, but other users and admins may not be so wild about that atmosphere being allowed to exist, and act accordingly. Now that I read through more of those diffs, I do remember who Atlantictire was now, the infamous "eat my fuck" guy, who was discussed here. You can't go around being that nasty, other people will step up and squash that every time. Tarc (talk) 14:48, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

No, once again, I am not defending Atlantictire or making any comment about whether the block was justified or not, I am pointing out that PRODUCER has posted an obvious, blatant, very clear lie on this page. "I've been referred or inferred by a number of users that I'm an anti-semite, neo-Nazi, white nationalist, KKK member, agenda pusher, ooze prejudice from pores, am affiliated with Stormfront etc. at every possible opportunity and all without any fear of sanctions on their part.[73]' He says people can call him names without any fear of sanctions and posts a diff of someone who was blocked for calling him names, among other things, it is a transparent lie.Smeat75 (talk) 15:03, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Facepalm Did Producer file the complaint that led to Atlantictire's block? If the answer is "yes", you may have a point. If the answer is "no", your continued smears, calling this editor a liar, are running afoul of WP:NPA. Tarc (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. He says people can call him names without fear of sanctions and posts a diff of someone who has been blocked for calling him names. Contradiction.Smeat75 (talk) 15:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, people CAN call him names, but his error was perhaps in the declaration of "no fear of sanction will come to you", as that was quite beyond his control. That doesn't make it a contradiction, it makes it a "making a claim that one cannot enforce". Again per my example above, I can tell you to call me whatever names you like and I won't care. But 3rd parties may indeed care and take action; my words to you are not binding on them. And yes, in the future I could envision indulging in a slight bit of glee at your misfortune as Producer did, as after all, you are responsible what comes out of your own mouth, or fingers, as it were. No one but Atlantictire was responsible for Atlantictire's words and deeds. Tarc (talk) 16:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'll just say this. I don't know what the deal is with the editors who created and defended that line of garbage some called an article. You don't create an article called "Jews and Communism" without knowing the history of the antisemitic canard. Especially when you have a line up of all those sources. As for PRODUCER being offended by my comments about the article, I could give a shit. There was clear intent on creating that article, and anyone who knows the history of the "Jews and Communism" canard knows this. I don't care how many well meaning editors work on that article, as long as it's titled and themed as "Jews and Communism", it should be deleted. Period. Dave Dial (talk) 15:08, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• Anyone is free to file another AfD, esp after the last one ended not in "keep" but "no consensus". Perhaps more editors will see it as un-salvageable this time around. Tarc (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I would like to think that more editors would see it as salvageable this time around, giving the evolution from the initial version by the participation of new "well-meaning" editors (such as myself!). However, I do think that possibly the title and some of the scope issues could use some more thought, and would encourage people to participate, and not to be standoff-ish and wait for another AFD (which hopefully we can avoid!).--Pharos (talk) 16:06, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• Why do you want to "fix it"? Would you want to fix an article titled Negros and Crime? How about Homos and Pedophilia? That article was created the same way those articles would be. Looking through sources, trying to find connections, and taking those connections and adding them all together. Which is what we call on Wikipedia, original research and synthesis. And the articles would be created for the same reason, the original author would have to know there is a racist/antisemitic connotation to the topic, but would delve into subject by using the same kinds of sources the racists/antisemites would use. Just search "Jews and Communism" with Google. Any non anti-Semitic results on the first page? No. How about the second page. No. There is an insipid meaning to the phrase, and I wish those who know about it's meaning and what is trying to be accomplished would step up and stop it. Instead of trying to "fix" something that cannot be fixed. Time spent trying to fix it could be used in getting rid of it. It's an insult this was not deleted in the first place. The results were obvious and the closer made a piss-poor decision. Dave Dial (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I am not going to offer any defense of the original version of the article. And neither am I going to defend the name, which is pretty bad, and which can probably be changed. However, I am convinced by my reading of numerous sources that the Jewish experience with Communism in the 20th century (including Soviet Antisemitic activities) is a notable topic, and we should have some sort of article on it.--Pharos (talk) 17:21, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, on my first page in a google search for "jews and communism" I get Stanisław Krajewski's paper "Jews, Communists and Jewish Communists, in Poland, Europe"(cached version) which is cited in the article. I'll note that it ends with the statements "Talking about it must not be left to antisemites. Sensitivity and good will is needed to understand the story of Jewish communists." If only editors could relax and find the sensitivity and good will to collaborate on the topic. Maybe a dedicated article isn't needed, maybe there are better ways of handling it, I don't know or particularly care, but people should try to relax and focus on building encyclopedic content. It's not a badge of shame. It's just history, a tiny part of the "information of everything". Maybe one day, everyone will agree with Ben Katchor's view that "racial identity is just a dangerous fantasy" (from his interview with Derek Parker Royal) and there will be peace and goodwill throughout this land of Wikipedia, but for now it would be better if people stopped taking shots at each other. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Like Tarc said: certain editors involved over there give every impression that they're out to sabotage the article: their proposals and positions are suggestive of a disdain for the quality of the article, while disruptive users like Smeat75 have gone out of their way to render constructive discussion on that page as difficult as they can, through frequent flaming and (otherwise-useless) attack threads. This was well demonstrated by Producer. Pharos is indeed a notable exception in that regard, and hats off to him. But that's just part of the problem.

The main problem is that editors refuse to abide by the Wikipedia editing standards. In spite of my best efforts, WP:CON and WP:BRD have no meaning on that article whatsoever. Editors (Pharos included) insist that their ability to gang up and revert-war authorizes them to override opposition on the talkpage.
And that is indeed the core issue here: while there's edit-warring there can be no civil discussion, while there's no civil discussion there can be no resolution to the outstanding issues. This is all that needs to be done (at least for starters): WP:CONS needs to be enforced. With blocks, if necessary, for anyone who violates the policy. Or rather goes on violating it.

Uphold policy. Simple, really. And I do hope admins will help. -- Director (talk) 06:30, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

BRD is a good concept to generally focus on during periods of contention, but from what I've observed, cavalier editing attitudes and even edit warring are less an issue than the general inability of parties to give ground and work collaboratively once discussion has started. On a separate point, if you are having to "enforce" consensus on more than half of the active editors on the talk page, it's likely you never achieved it in the first place. Snow (talk) 07:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Not if half of the "more than half" arrived later and only started complaining after weeks have passed (once one of them brainstormed another in the series of "lets delete this now!" ideas). -- Director (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I"m afraid this type of attitude toward "latecomers" is pretty much the definition of WP:OWN. You perhaps don't mean to be doing this, but that is certainly the effect.--Pharos (talk) 14:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

DIREKTOR the tone and stance you adopt are just too harsh. You come across as too much of a "boss man" when WP requires an ability to get along with a range of editors with who are only human beings with a wide range of abilities, time on their hands and other qualities. Editors are not "worker bees" who if they do not "punch in their cards and salute 'the boss'" at WP are fired or censured en masse. That is not the way to go about things. You must also show more respect for the obvious high level of intelligence and education of all editors who have gotten involved so far. For obvious reasons this is a highly emotional and sensitive topic to many people. Not every person from any ethnicity and religion would take kindly to talk calmly about the relationship of their group or coreligionists with a highly volatile topic such as the divisive and controversial communist ideology. One cannot pour hot water on humans and then say hey why are you screaming, cursing, and doing all sorts of things. While you and PRODUCER have obviously mastered some material about this topic, and your unique highly collaborative method of trying to enforce this topic from your own POV's that in in the long run is an illusion/delusion and impossibility, as you can tell, because there will always be others with opposing POV's and you will just have to get your minds around that just as you would like others to be respectfully accepting of yours. I think that the following post by User FkpCascais (talk · contribs) [74] gives the rest of us who have not had the pleasure of working collaboratively with you and PRODUCER very important insights into your methods and modus operandi. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Extended content

Background to DIREKTOR and PRODUCER provided by User FkpCascais (talk · contribs) from User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 161#"Jews and Communism" article: I must say that I share some of the concerns regarding behaviour of Direktor and Producer which were expressed here. I have had years-long debates with them regarding the Chetniks issue and I felt on my own skin their partisan attitude towards editors that oppose them. The main problem was that they grabbed the articles with the intention to maximally expand their collaborationist activities and shaddow the resistance ones, so that is why Producer is aware and mentioned it, how "his" articles about Chetnik commanders must be the favourite ones ammong right-wingers. They basically refused to acknolledge some basic facts such as an existing animosity that existed between Serbs (majority of Chetniks) and Germans, as they were historical enemies and had just fought a nasty war (WWI) two decades earlier. We even had a 2-years long mediation which concluded that the nature of the collaboration between Chetniks and Axis was opportunistic (as they both fought the communist Partisans of Tito). Direktor even today doesn´t acknolledge any resistance efforts to them. What they did was picky-cherring numerous sources, and it wasn´t difficult because Chetniks lost the war, so the official communist Yugoslav history labbeled them as collaborators and was pretty much a tendency followed by many authors, as there was no interest in defending the loosing side. They refused to acknolledge the complexity of the issue and often used numerous tricks to eliminate opposing editors, and with some admin help, aften succeded. I was very bitter with WP because of it and because of the failure to stop such an agressive attitude in such a sensitive issue. Numerous editors simply ended giving up because they noteced that entering in conflict with the two would only bring fristration and trouble. Now I see that same pattern they applied in Jewish subjects, and it didn´t passed unnoteced as in Serbian one does. However, I don´t beleave any of them is really anti-semite or racist. They do however have some bias: both are Croatian and in Croatia the word "Chetnik" is strongly associated with the Serbs that fought Croats during the 1990s, so their edditing pattern regarding that issue is probably influenced by that. Also Direktor is leftist, Yugoslav Partisans sympatizer, so I think the subject of Jews and Communism for them was more about communism rather than Jewish people, however they should change the agressve pattern they often show in numerous discussions.

Dear IZAK, you shouldn't be so modest about your neutrality and the good faith with which you deal with other hard working contributors. Apparently, there are many of us who should be thanking you for showing us the meaning of civility. I've found your courteous, yet straight-talking approach to be most edifying[75]. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

FkpCascais is a highly biased "background" provider, to say the least. Quite simply, I imagine he still hates my guts for insisting that Wikipedia not cover up Chetnik collaboration with the Nazis and their ilk (you know, stuff like this). In fact if I recall, the affair ended with him getting topic banned or something for tendentious editing. Personally I wouldn't give a wooden nickle for any of his "opinions" on my character. -- Director (talk) 12:08, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't want to dignify Fkp's biased complaints with a response, but seeing as IZAK is citing it as some definitive proof it should be known it is him not I that had ARBMAC sanctions placed for disruptive editing in the area. [76][77] I've collapsed this "evidence" as this discussion is already convoluted enough as it is. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 12:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Direktor, I don´t "hate you" because of you having your own opinion on the matter (everyone is entitled to disagree and opposing views should be welcomed to form consensus), I disagree with your methods of discussion and dealing with opposing editors. You make it allways a matter of win/loose and you use all partisan methods to win. Also, I don´t know how you talk about my sanction when you have a full page of sanctions and blocks. I dare to say that my topic ban at that time must have been the most exagerated TP of all time and I ended up banned because you and other users made the environment there so nasty and toxic that admins simply gave up to the easiest solution to your folcloric complains (at that time you made so many reports and you and Producer knew pretty well how to present the complains in order that when one came there to defend himself, admins unfamiliarised with the matter were already convinced by you).

Beleave me or nor, I actually came here to defend the two of you against the anti-semitic accusations. I am familiarised with your region and from years-long experience with you I know that you are a Croatian from Split who is a leftist, so I know that racism and anti-semitism was never even near you. The problem allways starts when some users oppose some of your edits and you start a full-scale war. It has been repetitive in many subjects around wikipedia. Here for instance (Talk:Yugoslav_Front#Alternate_proposal_2_.28National_Liberation_War.29) you clearly push a POV title in which the fight of your "Tito Partisans" would be the main subject, when you are not supported in that by absolutely anyone and all except you recognise the complexity of the war there. You simply deny that monarchsts also fought to liberate the country from Axis and had it as goal. I don´t agree with your attitude here on WP. This Jews and Communism was just another exemple where instead of working towards compromise you just entrered in war with another group of editors. And I think you didn´t even had the necessity to have conflict there, you could have just compromised easily there. But no, it is not your way, you like it more to fight, then enter into reports, make ir all escalate from one incident into a full-scale world war. FkpCascais (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

your observations are very interesting - your experience of direktors attitude and hostile superior-tone, chimes with mine actually, -also I remember reading George Orwell and his wondering about how fair the treatment of Draža Mihailović was- Sayerslle (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Indeed :) The entire subject of Draza Mihailovic Chetniks is very complex. However we had Direktor and his team grabbing the articles and writting them the way they wanted, which, as everyone can see, is all about "Chetniks posing with German troops" as if that was smple as that and only that mattered. I don´t want even to recall the horror that those 2-3 years of fighting with Direktor were. FkpCascais (talk) 03:43, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Whatever, Fkp. It would be nice if you tried to keep your pro-Chetnik agenda out of at least some of the disputes I happen to get involved in. -- Director (talk) 04:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Just as note, I am not a "pro-Chetnik" editor, I simply recognise the complexity in which they found themselfs during WWII. I actually got involved into it when I noteced that you and Producer grabbed the pretty much neutral and objective articles about them and started labeling them all over as collaborators. I opposed you, and since them I got used that you allways start saying how I am biased pro-Chetnik editor in order to discret me. Just another exemple of your disruptive pattern in discussions, as you quite often do this to editors opposing you. I will now leave this discussion to others. FkpCascais (talk) 20:05, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you FkpCascais (talk · contribs). By the way, what does "Potočnik" mean in English? Thanks, IZAK (talk) 07:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

It's the 7th most common surname in Slovenia and doesn't mean anything in particular (other than being a rush - that is, the plant - and is probably an allusion to an occupation or region from whence an ancestor hailed from). Perhaps he admires Janez Potočnik, or it might actually be his surname. If it were tied to any unpleasant personages or allegiances, I'm sure you would have heard about it by now. Hope this helps. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a tribute to visionary Herman Potočnik. Nothing malicious or sinister. --Potočnik (talk) 09:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Updates: DIREKTOR & PRODUCER are warned by Jehochman, while PRODUCER changes his user name to Potočnik

It is only fair that this discussion be updated of User Jehochman (talk · contribs) admin's parallel guidance towards Users DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) and PRODUCER (talk · contribs) (the latter now known as User Potočnik (talk · contribs)):

• User talk:DIREKTOR#Diffs [78] [79]
• User talk:Potočnik#Ownership and battleground mentality [80]
• User talk:Potočnik#Your username (where DIREKTOR suggests [81] that PRODUCER change his user name and PRODUCER complies) and is thanked [82].

Thank you, IZAK (talk) 07:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

My guess at the name change request is probably they were both tired of various sock puppet accusations since they have been going on for over a year. I don't find it terribly odd that they would try to deconflict that since they seem to be interested in overlaping articles, and any article they actually agree on they immediately get accussed of sockpuppetry. I would do something similar if someone was named Divanir or something close to my handle and constantly started taking flak over it. Tivanir2 (talk) 13:13, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and Izak's posting of the name change here as if it was some kind of "incident" looks pretty WP:BATTLEFIELDy to me. BMK (talk) 23:18, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Yea, it's kind of silly at the very least. But he may be worked up after Direktor told him not to edit the article anymore, after identifying him as a "Jew" trying to dissociate Jews from Communism. Dave Dial (talk) 00:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Ooops! That's a bit blatant. Apparently Jews and Communism is about "Communism, not anti-Communism" so it is not permissible for IZAK to include text showing Jews who opposed Communism—that article is only to show Jews who caused/promoted Communism. Johnuniq (talk) 10:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I assume you're expressing Director's opinion about the scope of the article? To my mind, an article entitled "Jews and Communism" should be about the relationship between Jewish people and Communism, include any anti-Communist efforts made by Jews. Any other limitation is totally artificial. BMK (talk) 16:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The accusations of anti-semitism are getting quite tiring. We don't need a Wikipedia secret police. RGloucester — ☎ 00:15, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

No. What we really don't need is antisemitism. And what are you referring to when you say "Wikipedia secret police"? What could that possibly mean? Dave Dial (talk) 00:31, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

If an editor has been engaging n antisemitic rhetoric, then bring it to the appropriate board for sanction. Just calling other editors "antisemines" over and over and over, without proof, can and should lead to a bit of a WP:BOOMERANG. Tarc (talk) 00:53, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

There is plenty of evidence of antisemitic behavior. The article itself, as it was created, was just a copy of the Jewish Bolshevism article. Only without telling readers it was a conspiracy theory. I just linked to a comment above that was over the line. That editors accept such as a matter of fact is the most egregious part of this whole mess. Dave Dial (talk) 01:19, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I see evidence of anti-leftist behaviour, myself. Apparently no thinks it is a problem to equate communism with 'evil'. That doesn't matter. Content. Not contributor. RGloucester — ☎ 01:25, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, yes. I've seen these types of red herrings before. So if someone points out that there was/is a Nazi/White Nationalist conspiracy theory involving "Jews and Communism", they are just anti-communists suggesting communism is somehow "evil". Not pointing out that that Hitler used this conspiracy theory to rile up the masses in his efforts to exterminate Jewish people. Just as if I stated that there are Homosexual conspiracy theories, I must be against homosexuals? Or perhaps those defending articles attempting to legitimize conspiracy theories regarding "Jews" wouldn't be so quick to defend those in other areas. At least that is what it seems like. I mean, it's not as important as Wikipedia using the term "wife of" to describe someone or anything. Dave Dial (talk) 02:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

If you did not read my comments below, you cannot expect me to take you seriously. As I said, I was not commenting on the content of the article. Merely on the behaviour of certain editors. RGloucester — ☎ 03:05, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

We don't need antisemitism, nor do we need a cabal accusing editors of being antisemitic repeatedly. It isn't productive.RGloucester — ☎ 00:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

did you even look at what was written at the talkpage? i agree with beyond my ken -to say an article titled 'jews and communism' is only to be about links between jews and communism, and then wikilawyering about how anything else isn't to be discussed because in the one book that is the source for the article its only about links(or something, I couldn't get my head round what TFD was saying really) -if an article is to be called 'jews and communism' then it seems to me that it can and should take in very much more than what was in fact the aim of Goebbels 1930s Nazi propaganda - to fuse Bolshevism and jews in the public mind. what are 'antisemines' tarc? is that a word? Sayerslle (talk) 01:08, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Let me ask this again. What are you referring to when you say "Wikipedia secret police"? What could you possible be referring to? Dave Dial (talk) 01:11, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't speaking about the article content (I've been watching it for a very long time, at this point, but haven't edited it). I was speaking about attacks on other editors. As for 'secret police', I was referring to the tendency, it seems, for certain editors to go on an anti-Semite witch-hunt, rather than dealing with content. I believe we have a policy in this regard, titled WP:NPA. RGloucester — ☎ 01:14, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• What makes this article peculiarly difficult is that Jews and communism is an obviously notable topic, (or group of topics, for there are quite a number of different aspects and subtopics) with an immense literature, but a good part of the primary literature and some of the secondary is biased against Jews and against Communism.. It is an anti-semetic canard that the Jews are evil because many of them are Communists, or that Communism is evil because many of the prominent figures were Jews. In either case it relies upon the readers assumptions that either the Jews or Communists are so obviously vile that anything can be damned by sowing an association with them. (From the POV of a communist it could equally be seen as an anti-communist canard.) And from the POV of a Jewish Communist it could be seen as a tribute to both Jews and Communism. This is an aspect that must be discussed, but should not overwhelm the article. Historically, it has been the case that anything that deals with the Jewish participation in anything is capable of being used as anti-semitism: if the thing is good, the Jews are debasing it; if questionable, it proves the nature of the Jews. Anything connected with Judaism can be used in this manner, and almost aeverything has been so used. I can understand that in anti-semetic régimes, Jews would protect themselves by trying to avoid any discussion about Jewish topics by non-Jews. I am also aware of a historical fear among Jews that regardless how good things may be now, a period of persecution will return--and it has often been a rational fear. DGG ( talk ) 06:12, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@DGG: A very well-thought out response. It is nice to see some logos amid the pathos. RGloucester — ☎ 16:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@DGG: Indeed, your comment was extremely edifying. I certainly was not aware of the Jewish historical narrative and feel confident that the majority of us are equally as ignorant of it. You did, however, forget to mention the number of Jewish contributors/editors who have been 'identified' by some 'body' as being unequivocally self-loathing Jews or classic anti-semites (it appears to come about where particular content input is deemed to be undesirable). Could you now explain what your point actually means in terms of the content of Wikipedia. In real terms, which areas of Wikipedia should be proscribed and how does the Wikipedia community determine taboo subjects from pleasant and nice content? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:04, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Re: Dave Dial's comment at 00:02, 3 May 2014 - first Director said "IZAK is a religious Jewish person" and "should leave" [83], an admin expressed alarm, so Director amended that comment to "IZAK, himself being Jewish, is pushing a right-wing agenda to disassociate Jews and Communism to the best of his POV-pushing ability. That's a fact." [84], another admin told him that was not an improvement, it "is typical prejudice of the worst kind - and basically a textbook case of it... it's disturbing" [85] and then Director removed both comments. I find it astonishing that anyone can think Director should be editing that article.Smeat75 (talk) 13:30, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

We need help. The article is ghastly, Jehochman's warnings do not seem to have been heeded, and attempts to improve the article are met with volumes of hostility. The sourcing is very thin, since old and anti-semitic sources address the topic while modern historians view it as a relic best passed over. One or two blocks or topic bans would do wonders; until they happen, this will continue to be a blight -- an increasingly conspicuous blight -- on the project. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:08, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Direktor's battlground behavior continues unabated.--Galassi (talk) 21:13, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I'd wager that the reason no additional admin action has been taken is that is already has one foot in ArbCom territory and no one wants to touch it with a 10-foot pole. Jehochman tried, and we see how that turned out. This is just the kind of thing that's going to land at ArbCom because the group editing there has already proven incapable of managing itself and no end to the disruption is in sight. This thread could go on forever. I've already spent an hour reviewing diffs and history, and I feel no closer to understanding the situation than when I started. Definitely not enough understanding to determine if admin action is needed. I suggest that ALL the editors on the page develop consensus for 0RR; even if Director doesn't buy into it he still has to respect consensus. Else, this will end up at ArbCom and if I had to guess, I'd say it's going to end up with discretionary sanctions along with and handful of admonishments, blocks, and topic bans. No one wants that outcome. We need calm discussion, no edit warring, and multiple viewpoints. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 00:58, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

no one wants to touch it with a 10-foot pole. Jehochman tried, and we see how that turned out- actually things have improved, believe it or not, at that article since Jehochman and Stephan Schulz got involved, kudos to them. Jehochman has strongly suggested a 0 revert rule and Director declared today I made it clear I do not subscribe to the 0RR rule, as I consider it dysfunctional in terms of WP:BRD [86] and continues to revert repeatedly. He also says in that same diff that he does not "count" user Galassi "as a participant here".Smeat75 (talk) 01:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Return to AfD?

I think many of us share the expectation of Spike Wilbury above that this mess will end up at Arbcom with "discretionary sanctions along with and handful of admonishments, blocks, and topic bans" There seems to be a good deal of support on the talk page for a return to AfD. There's not a true consensus -- consensus cannot be achieved, as this thread and its predecessors make clear -- but I think there is clear community support for the proposition that the page should go. How soon is too soon? I'd appreciate guidance. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:05, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

There is no specific guidance other than allowing a reasonable period of time for people to improve the article. It's been well over a month since the last deletion process was closed. I would take care to offer arguments for deletion that are enhanced or improved from the last time (I haven't looked at the previous nom so I don't know how thorough it was). --Spike Wilbury (talk) 20:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

An early second AfD with much the same participants would seem a bit futile, so I checked the contribution histories. By the end of the AfD, 8 editors had contributed to the article and 5 to the talk page. Since then, 38 more have edited the article and 62 more the talk page. 48 people joined in the AfD (not counting the closing admin) and 59 people that didn't join in the AfD made their first edits to the article or the talk page after the AfD closed. It seems there's quite a good chance of quite a few new participants at a new AfD. NebY (talk) 21:55, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Oppose new AfD or DRV

There is absolutely no need to launch a new WP:AFD or WP:DRV at this time, and certainly no need to get bogged down at WP:ARBCOM because:

1. It would just waste the energies of editors that are right now being used in a creative manner.
2. There is a huge difference between those who sit on the sidelines and make comments and the few hard-working editors trying to chisel away at this serious topic who are to be commended.
3. The article's evolution is at a very healthy stage.
4. Many experienced and skilled editors have been joining in and have been working on improving content.
5. There is presently an ongoing discussion about renaming the title.
6. A number of editors who had been objecting to the article while not making any contributions to its content have withdrawn from heated discussions lowering the temperature.
7. Since the unofficial expectation has been expressed that reverts should be limited, aggressive behavior by certain editors has been controlled.
8. Two of the original contributing editors have changed their user names and have radically toned down their abrasive attitudes making the editorial work environment more bearable and productive.
9. Admins are welcome and advised to keep a sharp eye on things and not let them get out of hand, but as things stand right now it does not seem feasible to launch either a new AfD, or DRV, and certainly no need to run to entangle the ArbCom that would not help matters.
10. AfD, or DRV, or going to the ArbCom would have a chilling effect, and would impose uncalled for censorship and muzzling of what has now turned out to be a robust discussion with resultant improvements to the article.

Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Noting that, a few hours after IZAK wrote this, DIRECTOR performed a massive revert against IZAK's talk page edits. Director also continues to try to revert changes to the article. MarkBernstein (talk) 13:32, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Things have improved a little at that article since admins Jehochman and Stephan Schulz started watching it, others rather than just Director's approved editors can at least make some contributions, but Director is right now engaging in another round of reverts and edit-warring and making it clear that he does not accept Jehochman's guidance, he says it is "borderline fraudulent" - [87]. In addition to saying that Izak "should leave" and Galassi "does not count as a contributor", diffs already posted on this thread, yesterday he told Sayerslle to "go away" [88]. Surely this behaviour of Director is against all sorts of policies and guidelines, he should be banned from editing that article, I have no knowledge of his activities anywhere else on WP. But it seems for some reason it is preferred on WP to drag things out for months or years and wait for the "Supreme Court", ARBCOM, to accept the case and embark on long deliberations, waste everyone's time with evidence collecting etc, when it could be dealt with now, in the meantime that article is damaging WP's integrity and, perhaps worse, readers may be being misled by its slanted presentation.Smeat75 (talk) 13:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The above was posted just as the discussion was "closed", somebody can take it out if they want to, obviously it is all just a waste of time anyway.Smeat75 (talk) 13:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Volunteer Marek inserting POV-slanted original research in ukraine topics

Volunteer Marek has been going around the articles relating to the Ukrainian crisis inserting original research and completely made up things supporting his POV while reverting any efforts to change the statements to actually represent what the sources say, while deceptively claiming in his edit summaries that he is removing "misrepresentations" and "original research".

One example is the Euromaidan article where i had removed the claim that "some of the snipers were not allowed to shoot" for not being supported, nor even mentioned, in any of the sources.[89] Besides being original research, the statement made it seem as if only those who were not allowed to shoot were surprised by those who were (ie implying that Janukovich snipers were allowed to shoot and were the ones doing it, something completely unsupported by the sources). However, since such a wording, and made-up stuff, fits his POV he immediately reinserted that claim.[90]

Another example is from 2014 Crimean Crisis where i had removed a whole bunch of claims unsupported by the source [91] [92]. As anyone can see the source [93] does not say anything about any "ukrainian officials", "Refat Chubarov", it being "undemocratic", "hastily prepared", "falsified" or "not reflecting the real will of the Crimeans". However, since the claims made it appear as if there is a widespread belief that only 40% participated and that the referendum was falsified, rather than just one man's speculations about how many participants there could have been given turnouts in earlier elections, which perfectly fits Marek's POV, he promptly reinserted the original research.[94]B01010100 (talk) 22:34, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

This is sour grapes over the fact that I filed a report on User:B01010100 for edit warring ([95] - s/he got blocked then block was reduced after B01010100 promised to behave, which appears to have been an empty promise) and had the temerity to point out that it's a sketchy-as-hell single purpose account who's arrived recently (?) on Wikipedia for the sole purpose of engagin in some good ol' fashioned WP:BATTLEGROUND.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

No, this is over the fact that i'm constantly working to fact-check sources and rewriting the articles to more accurately present the sources but you constantly reverting and reinserting OR for no other reason than that it fits your POV. Besides, even if it were sour grapes, i'll just refer you to Ad Hominem.B01010100 (talk) 22:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I fail to see how Marek's contributions are in any way controversial, and am going to have to side with them in this regard. If you guys have a dispute, work it out at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, but I am not seeing anything here that is concerning, especially when one looks at B01010100's talk page. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 02:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree. B01010100 needs to stop focusing on Volunteer Marek, and start concentrating on ensuring his own contributions are not becoming problematic. Coming here each time he perceives an issue is not going to go down well. If there is in fact a dispute, a conflict or some grievance about Volunteer Marek which needs to be addressed, the appropriate thing to do is utilise dispute resolution. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:17, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I find Volunteer Marek's edits so much POV that it's very difficult to keep assuming good faith. I don't want to look non-neutral, but, frankly saying, I am beginning to think his aim is to add as many anti-Russian stuff as possible and to remove as many pro-Russian stuff as possible. (I'm not trying to deliberately attack him, but I just want to say what I am actually beginning to think after seeing his edits on the Ukraine crisis-related stuff.) IMO his edits can seriously upset any editor who tries to be neutral. And he keeps pushing them in, keeps reverting people who try to stop him. I seriously hope some admin takes a closer look at Volunter Marek's editing patterns. Just look at his edits and think, "1. Did he add something against Euromaidan or something good about Yanukovich or Russia just once. Did he? 2. Why does he like to call people who are against Euromaidan nazis: [96], [97], [98], [99]? (It's, like, the first thing he does in any article.)" --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

• It is difficult to take seriously allegations of POV pushing from an editor whose username is "Moscow Connection". BMK (talk) 16:17, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

You mean that's beyond your ken? See how easy it is to do stuff like that, so how about focusing on content rather than usernames?B01010100 (talk) 20:55, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Admins will see this Volunteer Marek's edit: [100]. Admins, please, just think, "What does the editor actually do on Wikipedia? Are all of his edits look somehow the same? Is it someone who actually expands Wikipedia, who writes good articles, who actually wants to make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia?" --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that you guys are warring over the Euromaiden/Ukraine issue and are dragging the drama here. Neither side is in the right here in terms of attacks, but the dispute resolution page is probably the best bet for this discussion, as both sides have rather strong opinions here. Moscow Connection, I think you are going in the right direction, but this isn't the place to do it. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 22:54, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It is somewhat hard not to focus on someone who keeps following you around reverting your edits while simply refusing to even read the sources (User:Lvivske goes so far as explicitly defending his practice of not reading the sources before reverting[101]), or the talk pages. There were existing talk page discussions regarding exactly those changes, but does he follow the consensus there or even read them? No. If there is nothing controversial about making edits going against the talk page discussions, then why do we have talk pages in the first place? You say to take it to dispute resolution, but WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE says to go here, which is why i went here. Where exactly should this be taken then? The issue isn't any particular instance of his edits, but the entire underlying pattern of behaviour, which seems like a conduct dispute to me and hence why i took it here. At this time there is simply no point in making any contributions since if they don't fit his POV they'll just get reverted again irrespective of what the sources may or may not say.B01010100 (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth. In what you quoted I specifically talked about fact checking, just that its safe to assume if a portion of your sources are junk then the rest likely are too, especially if it's an IP or SP account --Львівське (говорити) 18:31, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

When an editor deliberately introduces text complete with citations and the citations do not support the text, the citations are fake. If an editor has the habit of using fake citations, then it is not very surprising if people check-by-sampling, and revert all the untrustworthy edits as vandalism.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Except that's not what has been going on. The editor who first removed the text did not introduce any text, and hence did not introduce fake citations, he removed them.[102] This was only his second edit, so he couldn't have had a habit of such things (his first edit was adding a source to a quotation to comply with WP:BLP). Volunteer Marek then reintroduced the fake citations, even though it should be BRD rather than BRR, giving as reason in his edit summary "restore sourced text" even though he obviously didn't even read the source for the text he was introducing.[103] The only thing going against the edit he reverted was that it was made by an IP-user who happened to be based in Russia. Rather than reverting again i rewrote the text to remove the parts that were not in the source and more accurately represent the source [104] (and subsequent edits), as well as using the talk page to discuss those changes. [105] Volunteer Marek then simply introduced the fake citations again[106], completely ignoring both the talk page discussion and the call to read the source first. It seems, to me, that if anyone is making a habit of using fake citations it would be Volunteer Marek. And it's not like this is an isolated incident, it's a general pattern.B01010100 (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I apologize if i have misinterpreted your linked comment, but in the context of the discussion where you made that comment it was Volunteer Marek who kept introducing text not supported by the source by reverting the editor who, rightfully, removed it - thereby showing that he obviously didn't even read the source for the text he kept introducing. It was for that i called him out on blanket reverting others without even reading the sources, which you responded to as sometimes being appropriate. I realize now that i have misinterpreted your comment to some degree, but i presume you can understand the misunderstanding given the context.B01010100 (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I would like to draw attention at these edits, which introduce Reductio ad Hitlerum-linked car analogy, in violation of WP:SEEALSO (which demands that "The links in the "See also" section should be relevant"). Nazi/Soviet events of 1938 and 1940 aren't related to modern Crimean events. Seryo93 (talk) 05:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

"Those who fail to remember history are condemned to repeat it." BMK (talk) 17:49, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

We may add those parallels as attributed (such as in Reactions section), I won't oppose that. But not in See also. And BTW, quote above can be likewise applied to NATO expansion towards RF borders. "Those who fail to remember history...", so I suggest to avoid WP:SOAPBOXing (which, I admitt that, coming from both sides of 2014 crisis) Seryo93 (talk). 06:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC) Updated 08:59, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

NATO? NATO hasn't expanded since 2009, and Ukraine disavowed any intent to join in 2010. I believe the current brouhaha originated over Ukraine wanting closer ties to the EU, a non-military association. And in any case, if the Santayana quote draws attention to parallels between Germany's actions prior to WWII and Russia's current actions, what is the parallel you're drawing between Ukraine's associations with NATO and the EU and the situation back then? I see none.

Putin seems stuck in the age-old Russian desire to keep a buffer between itself and Europe, either by the conquests which created the Russian Empire, or Stalin's creation of puppet states after WWII. This need for "security" at the expense of the independence of other countries appears to be a long-established part of hard-line Russian thinking. Failing to point out those obvious facts (through citations from reliable sources, of course) would do a disservice to our readers. BMK (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Non-military? Please get your facts straight. The parallel would be the expansion of a hostile military bloc eastwards in violation of the relevant agreement with Russia on that, just like another hostile military bloc's eastwards expansion in WWII. That's the issue with inventing Nazi analogies in wikipedia articles, all you do is open a can of worms.B01010100 (talk) 20:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not (and in fact never, you can see this from my post before!) objected to carefully attributed parallels (look at 2014 Crimean crisis#Commentary for examples). About NATO: I've meant expansion since fall of USSR, which Russia - country, that dissolved its own NATO - views as a hostile encirclement (see also Cordon sanitaire). Either way, parallels can be found for anything. Seryo93 (talk) 17:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC) Upd: 17:49, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Please don't change the contents of a comment after it's been responded to. IN this case it makes my response look provocative, instead of responsive to yours. BMK (talk) 18:40, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, sorry. Seryo93 (talk) 06:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The Warsaw Pact dissolved itself, and the Soviet Union really didn't have any choice in the matter, so there's no reason to give them props for that And what of the Collective Security Treaty Organisation that succeeded it? That Russia is now less powerful than the old Soviet Union was is a fact of life, and certainly fuels the Russian paranoia and loss of self-respect that appear to be part of Putin's motivations - but, here again, the rebuilding of Germany's self-regard was one of the factors that entered into the provocation of WWII, and, again, the Santayana quote is pertinent. No one is saying, I don't think, that the situations are exactly the same, but one rarely comes across two world-historical circumstances that are so closely paralleled as these two are. BMK (talk) 18:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

See here (remark about Gorby claims - but this is logical consequence of "unwritten promise"). Anyway, I'm not opposed to statement that "Many compared X to Y...[refs]", as in 2014 Crisis commentary section. Seryo93 (talk) 06:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Sharing a POV is not an excuse to have it included where it obviously doesn't belong.B01010100 (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

B01010100, Seryo93, Petr Matas: I suggest you look into this: [107].
(I'm not sure, but it looks like the person (under a different account name) has already been banned from the Eastern European topics for participation in a coordinated anti-Russian campain on Wikipedia. As I understand, the edit I linked suggests going to WP:AE to enforce the decision. --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The original case can be found here [108] (the old user name is Radeksz). The topic ban was for a year [109] but has been rescinded by motion [110], and even if it wasn't rescinded it would've passed now anyway. So there isn't anything to enforce at this time, however point 4 of the motion should be relevant.B01010100 (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

@B01010100: Where is this point 4? Could you provide a link? (By the way, I probably won't be able to do anything myself, but I want to help other editors who might want to do something about the problem.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moscow Connection (talk • contribs) 11:54, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe that he meant the 4th supporting vote of this motion. — Petr Matas 16:37, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

It is very easy to get caught in edit warring with VM, it happened to me as well. You have to be very careful. It is also useful to focus on one thing at a time in the discussion. — Petr Matas 16:37, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

That's hardly suprising, edit warring is after all one of his proclaimed methods to keep the content the way he likes it.[111].B01010100 (talk) 20:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

This still going on? Guys, as flattered as I am to be the subject of your discussion, you do realize that you are basically talking to yourselves? The uninvolved editors, Ktr101 , Ncmvocalist, BMK and a few others, commented above and I think that's pretty much all there is to say. So how about closing this and the few of you that have axes to grind behave yourself in the future? Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:21, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I have a suggestion for both of you. Are you overlapping in the areas that you edit or does it look like one is following the other? I suggest that one or the other has a go at editing a topic that the other would seemingly never touch, if the other party starts editing the same area then a problem is clear cut there. If I had a dispute problem that's what i'd take a look at doing. MM (I did the who in the whatnow?) ^{(I did this! Me!)} 21:39, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek works hard to fix NPOV problems on topics which are besieged by pov-pushers and single-purpose accounts. AN/I threads like this aren't a sign of actual misdeeds, they're a sign that VM's work is effective. bobrayner (talk) 09:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Questionable comments by User:JohnValeron

Hiya, earlier this month, User:JohnValeron promised to check all of my edits; he stated: As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility as a Wikipedia editor, and I shall henceforth independently confirm and where appropriate challenge whatever you contribute to this article. This comment was made due to a soon-to-be-explained misunderstanding, as well as his lack of knowledge about what is contained in RS regarding the subject matter.

My edits are followed so closely that yesterday I was unable to fix my edits as I developed a new section, running into 3 edit conflicts as he somewhat frantically made changes to the work seconds after I hit "save page". I asked him to give me some space, due to the edit conflicts, to which he replied Truthfully, Petrarchan47, as an editor you are a butcher. If you'd do a half-decent job I wouldn't have to correct so much...In my experience at Wikipedia, your ineptitude is singular.

In my experience at WP, small technical errors like those he pointed out are fixed quietly by others, or discovered quickly by the offending editor. Usually when I add new content, it takes a few edits to get all the glitches out. I've never been faulted for this before, let alone called inept. Regarding the drama and various issues he brought to the Snowden talk page yesterday, today he does not seem keen to explain himself, saying he "doesn't respond well to badgering". He does not engage on his talk page, either.

He has also made a comment about "our Hong Kong editor" but will not explain who he is speaking of, how he knows this editor's location nor why he is bringing this information to the talk page.

(Quick history: the Snowden page has been quite a hotbed of edit warring since December. John Valeron came in about half-way through and we don't actually have much history between us, so I am not sure where this level of hostility is coming from.) petrarchan47tc 04:18, 27 April 2014 (UTC) (*edited at 5:17)

• Another questionable comment was added today in the "quid pro quo" section below: [Petrarchan47 is] the most unethical editor I have ever encountered. This outrageous claim was apparently based on the fact that I thought the date was May 2cd rather than the 4th. petrarchan47tc 07:56, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

It is 100% unacceptable to refer to someone as "a butcher" or "your ineptitude" - no matter the quality of your edits (which, by the way, you need to use the "Show Preview" button a little more in order to avoid issues because they are somewhat poor). There is also a fine line between validly using the "show contributions" of another editor, and wikistalking - and John appears to be on the wrong side of that line the panda ₯’ 14:16, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. Because this will be likely used against me in the future, would you consider amending your comment to reflect whether you checked a selection of my edits, or as I assume, is your comment ("somewhat poor") referring only to this one section/incident? I accept that it may have been an off-day, and there were more glitches than usual, however, one could interpret your comment as a general statement about my editing, so I just wanted to clarify this. petrarchan47tc 22:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

DangerousPanda, I appreciate your input, but please let me provide some background. Although Petrarchan47's preceding post describes the page Edward Snowden as "a hotbed of edit warring since December," she has lately attempted to sanitize her own central role in these hostilities by portraying herself as having "sought peace over all else for the last few months."[112] However, as I replied to her post three days ago, "The notion that you are a peacemaker at the Edward Snowden article or its Talk page is preposterous. You are resolutely proprietary and consistently combative."[113] An unbiased review of the Snowden edit history will bear me out. Day in and day out, Petrarchan47 makes war, not peace.

Petrarchan47 acknowledges that she and I "don't actually have much history between us," which is true. But the sinkhole of her edit warring, evidenced by frequently and peremptorily reverting particular editors' contributions, eventually sucked me in. In the heat of anger, I lashed out, calling her a butcher and castigating her ineptitude. For that I am sorry. I apologize to Petrarchan47 and to the entire Wikipedia editorial community. I will henceforth strive to keep my temper in check.

But, DangerousPanda, you are totally wrong in endorsing Petrarchan47's unfounded and offensive accusation against me for Wikihounding. The facts are these:

• 5 June 2013 – Snowden/NSA story explodes in worldwide news media.

• 00:38, 10 June 2013 – just five days later, I post my first edit to Wikipedia's Snowden page.[114]

• 14 April 2014 – The Washington Post and The Guardian are jointly awarded the 2014 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for coverage of the Snowden/NSA scandal.

• 17:10, 20 April 2014 – six days later, having noticed comments in online social media mistakenly asserting that Glenn Greenwald won this prize—which is awarded to news organizations, not to individual journalists—I became curious as to whether or not Wikipedia's editors had recognized that distinction. Visiting the Greenwald page, I discovered otherwise, and posted appropriate edits to clarify the matter.[115]

• 17:14, 20 April 2014 – after finishing my Greenwald edits, I proceeded immediately to the Wikipedia page for Laura Poitras, Greenwald's closest collaborator in the Snowden saga, where I executed similar edits to clarify that Poitras, like Greenwald, did not personally win the Pulitzer prize.[116]

• 20:36, 21 April 2014 – I likewise edited the Wikipedia page for Ewen MacAskill, a British journalist who also collaborated with Greenwald & Poitras on the early Snowden reporting.[117]

My editing of the respective Wikipedia page for each of three journalists closely associated with covering the Snowden scandal was a natural outgrowth of my longstanding interest in Snowden, dating back to 10 June 2013.

Yet Petrarchan47 now smears me with a spurious charge of Wikihounding for doing something innocuous and purely coincidental to her own contributions to two of those three pages. (She has never edited the MacAskill page.)

This, DangerousPanda, is 100% unacceptable. I am not guilty of Wikihounding, and you are wrong to say so. JohnValeron (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You say you're not guilty of wikihounding, but right here, in this very thread, you accuse Petrarchan of "making war, not peace" and referring casually to "the sinkhole of her edit warring, evidenced by frequently and peremptorily reverting particular editors' contributions" for which you provide no evidence. An apology is nice, but you undermine the presumption in your good faith by making such statements. Coretheapple (talk) 19:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, please advise: what evidence would you accept of Petrarchan47's edit warring since June 9, 2013, when she first graced Wikipedia's Edward Snowden page? As I wrote above, "An unbiased review of the Snowden edit history will bear me out." Did you bother to familiarize yourself with that history before pronouncing me guilty of Wikihounding? Given the quickness of your response here, and considering the large volume of edits to that page over the past eleven months, I seriously doubt it. JohnValeron (talk) 19:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

So your position is that people commenting on ANI threads have the burden of proving the allegations made in them, whereas the people who make those allegations don't? They can just make accusations without a shred of evidence (such as a history of edit warring blocks, which Petrarchan doesn't have, not even one)? That's a new one. Coretheapple (talk) 19:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, as a first stab at submitting the evidence you demand, I found three pertinent comments by user DrFleischman, posted earlier this year at User talk:Petrarchan47, relating specifically to Petrarchan47's unfounded accusations of POV pushing at the Edward Snowden page (emphasis added):

• I believe that Petrarchan truly does feel "batted around" but that is not a reason for him/her to accuse me of "high school girl behavior" and being here to "play games" rather than to "write articles." And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you follow Petrarchan's history with me and others you'll see we're way, way, way beyond AAGF territory.

00:46, 6 February 2014

• [replying to user Gandydancer] We're talking about Petrarchan's conduct here, not mine. WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF are universal policies/guidelines that apply regardless of whom you're dealing with. I think I'm on safe ground saying that you've been spared from Petrarchan's wrath because he/she sees you as having a similar POV.

04:50, 6 February 2014

• [addressing Petrarchan47] Sure, I'll give one example, the one that led to your insistence on me answering this question. In your response to some of Brian Dell's (apparently good faith) arguments you failed to address most of his arguments beyond, "Please stop POV pushing," and in the same comment you wrote, " [I am officially 100% EXHAUSTED by Bdell555.]". I found your conduct unacceptable, and I believe many or most other Wikipedians would as well. Your near constant sighs and groans (literally) about being too tired to deal with your critics and your near constant accusations of POV-pushing seem never-ending despite my repeated requests that you stop. You clearly have a tin ear. I'll say it one last time, and then, as you request, I won't edit your user talk again (except for mandatory notices).

21:47, 6 February 2014

Coretheapple, as I continue gathering evidence of Petrarchan47's edit warring and often toxic relations with her fellow Wikipedians, I'd appreciate it if you refrained from putting words in my mouth, as you did in your preceding comment by stating my "position" in the least accurate way possible so as to ridicule me. JohnValeron (talk) 20:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Those are just accusations against this editor. Doesn't prove a thing. I've been accused of everything up to and including kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. Do you feel I should be extradited to New Jersey? Coretheapple (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

"Doesn't prove a thing." This from one of Wikipedia's most notorious inquisitors when comes to COI allegations. You may be sympathetic to Petrarchan's POV, thinking her McCarthyite anti-COI campaign is consistent with yours but are you aware that she goes a step further with her beware infiltrating government agents line? This after Mastcell had already tried to get her to back away when she was trying to finger Wikipedian Dr. Fleischman as a federal agent? Maybe that's too much bad faith assuming even for you, @Coretheapple? In any case on April 8 Petrarchan went 6RR in less than two and a half hours on the Edward Snowden article edit warring with JohnValeron and I and John and I let it go rather than take Petrarchan to an admin noticeboard thinking she'd be more likely to change her edit warring ways if shown mercy. Petrarchan then turns around and takes John to this noticeboard! It's right out of the Parable of the unforgiving servant. We obviously should have gotten Petrarchan blocked at the time since editors like you are making an issue out of "...history of edit warring blocks, which Petrarchan doesn't have, not even one." We apparently need to change our tactics with edit warriors like Petrarchan and get them blocked as soon as they violate 3RR given what editors like you make out of "clean" block histories.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, since you asked, I'll answer for the record: I wouldn't consign anyone—not even Petrarchan47—to New Jersey. JohnValeron (talk) 21:56, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, as we wend our merry way through this delightful WP:ANI adjudicating my alleged QUESTIONABLE COMMENTS, cherish this Pearl of Wisdom from Petrarchan47: "The thing is, you can't edit articles around here for very long without coming into contact with hardcore POV pushers and pure, unadulterated jerks." 20:13, 18 February 2014 Submitted here for entertainment purposes only. JohnValeron (talk) 22:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And a comment of extraordinary accuracy. Coretheapple (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You certainly have chutzpah, @Coretheapple. You declare in this thread that Petrarchan's got a clean edit warring record when you've participated in edit warring noticeboard complaints involving her trying to get her off. I note one gem of a comment in particular: " Coretheapple and I are two wiki-friends of Petrarchan47 that are concerned for HER health. Being brought in front of the Admin Noticeboard can be stressfull." So stressful! Yet Petrarchan bring someone else "in front of the Admin Noticeboard", well, that just's business!--Brian Dell (talk) 23:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Well actually I'm monitoring this board because I'm following another thread, so I dropped in on this one and another and boy! am I being yelled at. Talk about stress. It's terrible. Coretheapple (talk) 23:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You could relieve yourself from the stress by declining to nod along when Petrarchan complains of "hardcore POV pushers" given that when IRWolfie noted that Petrarchan was, yet again, trying to battle what she thinks is a "large conspiracy" by "fighting the good fight against US Corporations" and "insert[ing] highly polemic statements" at that time you were all about not worrying about whether there was any POV pushing and just focusing on whether your "wiki-friend" could beat an edit warring charge on technicalities. I'll also note that while you trumpet Petrarchan's flawless block record (and try to justify all her COI attacks), when SpectraValor took her editing to the edit warring noticeboard she got off because the complaint was apparently a few hours stale. Yet another editor started a case on the 3RR noticeboard and Petarchan was found guilty of a 3RR violation but was again let off. There's nothing to be seen here, according to you.--Brian Dell (talk) 00:08, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm seeing a lot of mud-slinging directed at her, doing a good deal to prove her original point. Coretheapple (talk) 00:54, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

You demanded "evidence" Petrarchan is an edit warrior and I pointed out that just within the last three weeks she went 6RR in less than 3 hours and subsequent to avoiding a block there got taken to the edit warring noticeboard by another editor where an admin found that "Petrarchan47 violated WP:3RR". This thread could have been shorter had you let us know earlier that you would be dismissing the evidence you ask for as "mud-slinging" since we would have known your request for evidence was not to be taken seriously.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

This thread would have been even shorter if you hadn't tried to divert attention from the real issues with mud-slinging and character assassination. Coretheapple (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The issue here is Valeron's behaviour at the Snowden talk page, and the disruptive hostility. If bringing up anything Fleischman once said is supposed to justify comments made yesterday about my ineptitude as an editor, or the wiki-hounding, I fail to see the connection.

It should be noted that Dr Fleischman, shortly before leaving Wikipedia last month, admitted that Brian Dell's position - the kernel of the 3 month edit war - is untenable. Dr F essentially admitted that I was, in fact, right to have been exasperated by Dell; he came up against the exact same difficulties I had been complaining about. Dr F took BDell555's side immediately in the edit war, and regretted it later. In the end though, the POV warriors, not RS, won the day. The Lede to Edward Snowden now contains a SYNTH account of Snowden's passport/Russia saga rather than the simple account given by countless RS (that Snowden was stranded due to the US' revocation of his passport) because Brian Dell exhausted me completely. petrarchan47tc 22:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Doc is an ally of yours, is he? That's why he asked Mastcell to do something about you? "Dr F essentially admitted that I was, in fact, right to have been exasperated by Dell" Is that so? Yet after you claimed to be "officially 100% EXHAUSTED" (elsewhere saying my comments were simply too extensive for you to bother reading) Doc's reply was that "This "you are exhausting" talk is destructive, non constructive, and is contrary to the spirit of the project" and Doc specifically addressed you.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:46, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And MastCell responded by saying that he didn't want to touch the case. The diffs I left show that after more information, Dr F progressed from blindly aligning himself with you, to becoming completely exacerbated as well and leaving WP. Before he did, he told Gandydancer: Btw, you and Petrarchan are probably in stitches over my recent interactions with Brian Dell at Talk:Edward Snowden, ad you have a right to be. Now that Brian's putting me through the ringer I certainly understand your frustration and "exhaustion." Then again while you may have been fully justified in feeling the way you did, IMO that didn't justify you expressing it to Brian, which was inflammatory and uncivil, even if honest. In any case, my reason for bringing this up isn't to justify my involvement; rather, just the opposite. If I had been actively participating in that discussion (rather than passively observing) I would have better appreciated what you and Petrarchan had been dealing with and I probably would have kept my mouth shut. So, in hindsight, I'm sorry for that indiscretion. Fleischman (talk) 05:03, 10 March 2014 petrarchan47tc 23:13, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan47 may now claim to be fast friends with DrFleischman, but it wasn't always so. A mere six weeks ago she posted this to Doc's user talk page: "Why are you following me to articles completely unrelated to anything besides, I have to assume, your obsession with me? This is harassment…."

Sound familiar? Yep, it's Petrarchan47's standard charge of Wikihounding. In March, DrFleischman was "following" Petrarchan47 around Wikipedia due to his "obsession" with her. Now it's April, Doc has made no edits for 30 days, and so it's my turn to stand accused. After all, Petrarchan47 has got to have someone Wikihounding her. If not the obsessed Doctor, then I guess yours truly will do in a pinch. "This is harassment!" Maybe so. But who, pray tell, is harassing whom here? JohnValeron (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we can close out this thread by quoting from said fast friend: "Petrarchan47, it is time to drop this cowardly and disruptive witch hunt once and for all."--Brian Dell (talk) 23:47, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I've mostly been a interested bystander on the Snowden talk page. I'll just comment that this noticeboard is for reporting and discussing incidents that require the intervention of administrators. Generally that means you need to ask for something specific, like a block, and give evidence that the requested action is required, for example three warnings on the user's talk page concerning a blockable offense, backed up by links to the offending edits. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:57, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

What really matters is making sure WP:BLP is enforced

I generally consider myself to be an editor who tries to avoid all sorts of drama as far as possible. However, ever since I've started editing the Edward Snowden page, it has become very clear to me that this is one of those articles any sane editor would want to avoid at all costs. In fact, I've practically given up trying to make it look more like a biography than a battleground. I don't know what motivates some people to keep pushing a particular POV for so many months and I have to admit I do admire your determination to achieve whatever aims you have here, but I'm fully amazed that you don't even try to hide your POV.

Can we at least agree that labelling a living person as "narcissistic" on his biography, even quoting someone who did so, is extremely unconstructive? But at least this is better than turning the entire article into an NSA quote farm.

Although I think JV is a highly motivated editor, his lack of adherence to WP:BLP and his conduct towards other editors, and more importantly, his general attitude towards the subject of this biography is a serious cause for concern. -A1candidate (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

With respect to what you say is "most important," just what sort of "general attitude" towards Mr Snowden would you like to see? I take it that it would not be Hillary Clinton's--Brian Dell (talk) 01:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

A1candidate, please clarify your second paragraph, in which you link to the same diff for both "labelling a living person as narcissistic" and "turning the entire article into an NSA quote farm." I honestly don't understand how you can construe a single comment by former NSA Director McConnell, reliably sourced to New York magazine, as constituting an NSA quote farm. JohnValeron (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, A1candidate, if my behavior is such "a serious cause for concern," why have you waited until now to bring that to my attention—and in this highly adversarial context? I reckon you just like a good ambush. JohnValeron (talk) 01:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

@Bdell555 - An attitude that is in line with building a biography instead of fighting a battle would be more than welcome. For starters, how about not trying to remove reliably sourced information from Snowden while replacing his quotes with goveernment issued-statements? @JohnValeron - The fact that you use words like "ambush" is very telling of your attitude. Both of you obviously have a POV (you don't even try to hide it), this is something that I've long felt needed to be addressed. I always avoid drama, so this is going to be my last reply. -A1candidate (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

A1candidate, the fact that you stage an ambush only to turn tail and run is very telling of your attitude. JohnValeron (talk) 02:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on edits and ideas, not on editors'. Your comment above verges on a personal attack. Dial it down, please. BMK (talk) 19:41, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

What really matters is making sure Edward Snowden Hagiography is enforced

Note: I'm not indenting because my response applies to both the overall section Questionable comments by User:JohnValeron and its subsection What really matters is making sure WP:BLP is enforced. Also, thanks to admin Dennis Brown and user Beyond My Ken for pointing out that my subtitle (obviously a parody of A1candidate's subtitle) should not be formatted so as to appear in the TOC.

As the foregoing discussion demonstrates, at the heart of this post by Petrarchan47 to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents is what user A1candidate identifies as my "attitude" towards Edward Snowden. In her edit warring over the past 10 months, Petrarchan47 has exemplified the politically correct attitude of blind partisanship in favor of Snowden. Moreover, she has acted as bully and enforcer, peremptorily exercising innumerable reverts to disrupt the attempts of other editors to provide balance. Shamelessly seeking to go beyond that and punish editors who have taken issue with her, last month she targeted DrFleischman, posting to his user talk page: "Why are you following me to articles completely unrelated to anything besides, I have to assume, your obsession with me? This is harassment…." Now, having disposed of DrFleischman (who has made no edits at Wikipedia for over 30 days), Petrarchan47 turns her sights on me, taking to this page to foster the impression that I have been Wikihounding. Her success in this smear is evidenced by the very first reply to her initial post, from DangerousPanda, who applied the term "wikistalking" to me.

No doubt the pro-Snowden partisans have the numbers to block and even ban me. But until then, I will not be intimidated. I shall continue to resist all attempts by A1candidate and Petrarchan47 to enforce their hagiography of Edward Snowden. I shall rely instead on Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy, which states in pertinent part, "Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight." JohnValeron (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have glossed over the part about due weight. One person calling Snowden narcissistic does not merit including the term in the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:51, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, as explained in Wikipedia's due weight policy, "Neutrality requires that each article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." In determining which viewpoint is significant in each instance, a Wikipedia editor must consider overall context, not just the particular report. For example, if an otherwise reliable but left-leaning, pro-Snowden publication runs a piece that includes 1,000 words of direct quotations from professional partisans such as Snowden lawyers Jesselyn Radack and Ben Wizner or journalistic enablers such as Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, offset by 100 words from Hillary Clinton criticizing Snowden, Wikipedia is not required to reflect these opposing viewpoints in proportion to their numerical value. Rather, editors mush exercise judgment. The mere fact that a former U.S. Secretary of State, U.S. Senator and First Lady publicly disputes Snowden makes her words more significant than the utterly predictable, canned retorts of longtime Snowden shills, whose unchanging views are already amply represented in Wikipedia's Snowden article.

As for the specific example to which you allude, in the Motivations subsection, we quote former NSA director and current Booz Allen Hamilton vice chairman Mike McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic," reliably sourced to New York magazine. What you conveniently overlook, HandThatFeeds, is its placement near the end of a 1,074-word subsection that includes 566 of Snowden's own words (53% of the total), plus our paraphrasing of his views not directly quoted and statements by his enabler Laura Poitras. In a subsection devoted to his motivations, that focus is entirely appropriate. However, in this context, it is equally appropriate to quote a single sentence—all of 23 words—spoken by a prominent critic of Snowden's motivations.

Due weight does not require excluding significant minority viewpoints. JohnValeron (talk) 15:29, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Significance is the key here. Show that Snowden being narcissistic is a significant viewpoint, and you'd have a point. As it is, you really don't, and WP:WEIGHT is against you. Hagiography is definitely to be avoided, but so are unsupported POV opinions expressed only by a small number of people. BMK (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, Snowden being narcissistic is a significant viewpoint not because a large number of people have expressed it, but because of the prominence of who did express it: a former NSA director and current vice chairman of the firm for which Snowden worked as a contractor and where he sought employment expressly for the purpose of stealing more secret US Government documents to leak. "My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked," Snowden told the South China Morning Post on June 12, 2013. "That is why I accepted that position about three months ago." JohnValeron (talk) 18:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Editors could choose to quote McConnell because he's a prominent person; on the other hand the nature of his prominence in this case makes him a particularly unreliable source. Specifically, his crude characterization of the psychological motivations of a whistleblower are made in an unavoidably political context: they're certainly not reliable, and arguably unhelpful. We're not required to quote a famous person every time they open their mouths. -Darouet (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Placing McConnell's statement in the "reaction" section would be more reasonable, as it wouldn't purport to give readers special insight on Snowden's motivations. -Darouet (talk) 18:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Darouet, McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic" is properly contextualized in the Motivations subsection. The reliable source in this instance is New York magazine, not McConnell. He is quoted here not because he's famous, but because he's a former NSA director and current vice chairman at Booz Allen Hamilton. In both those capacities, he brings an insider's knowledge and expertise to bear on Edward Snowden. To exclude McConnell's viewpoint merely because you personally disagree with it is unsupported by Wikipedia policy. JohnValeron (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and as a former NSA director he's about as neutral about Snowden as an ex-grunt is about the Marine Corps. It's irrelevant that he's quoted by a reliable source, what's relevant is whether his view of Snowden is shared by others without a connection to and history with the Agency. BMK (talk) 19:39, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Rubbish. If Wikipedia required editors to quote ONLY neutral sources, we'd have to eliminate every quotation attributed to Snowden's lawyers Jesselyn Radack and Ben Wizner or journalistic enablers such as Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, to mention just four of many such pro-Snowden speakers. The article would be reduced to 20% of its existing length. JohnValeron (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I do believe that McConnell's statement may be notable: as a reader I could benefit from knowing what the man said even if I disagree. However, McConnell is an overtly hostile party and not a reliable when describing Snowden's motivations, which is why I think his comments fit better in "Reactions". -Darouet (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Drama and POV pushing

This drama pushes good editors away from the Snowden page. It is aimed at anyone wanting to add RS that implicates the US government in Snowden's 'choice' for asylum in Russia, and essentially anyone who disagrees with the edits of Valeron or Dell.

For instance, John Valerion had these comments about editors today:

• "At 20:40, 30 April 2014‎, User:A1candidate attempted to hijack the editorial process" *
• "Another Edit Warrior Parachutes In - Beyond My Ken thus attempts to backdoor his way into control of the Snowden article without posting a single comment at the Snowden Talk Page...This arrogant, willful behavior even ignores BMK's own admonishments to editors of other articles, whose work he has undone with a warning to Discuss on talk page, Do not revert without a consensus to do so. Clearly, Beyond My Ken is one of those Do As I Say, Not As I Do edit warriors." *

I addressed the now 5-month edit war here, for some context. Brian Dell's friend User:DrFleischman said it well: "There is consensus that "stranded" is reliably sourced and appropriate for the lead." and "When you're disputing an account made by dozens and dozens o[f] reputable news sources, you've got to start asking yourself, are you trying to build an encyclopedia or are you trying to promote a fringe conspiracy theory instead?" More on that is here: Retelling of the passport story.

The Snowden page has been taken over by POV pushers. Here is a discussion for more insight. A1Candidate to Dell: "you seem to be more interested in pushing a particular POV instead of improving the article as a whole. A large portion of your edits appear to be related to Russia, Russia, and more Russia. We don't know for sure whether the Kremlin is behind Snowden's flight, as you have been claiming all along. While I do think it's a plausible theory, it's nothing more than mere speculation." Please see this Snowden Talk section for more.

Today, Dell and Valeron are using Business Insider and their report on a Wikileaks tweet to support their contention that Snowden chose to go to Russia, as opposed to what RS states over and over, very clearly: Snowden was stuck in Russia due to the US' revocation of his passport (RS listed here).

Last week, Snowden's entire accolades section was reduced by John Valeron to this. Here is the talk page discussion where I explain that to cut only his awards, squishing them to two unreadable paragraphs without condensing any other sections, is POV. Valeron says that Snowden's awards "all seem equally unmeritorious". Valeron notes that he does not find the article to need condensing, so his only reasons for this editing are POV, it would seem.

He also removed a quotation cited to Snowden, though his edit summary was: "reword so as to not imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". Again, the edit serves the US government, but not Wikipedia.

He states: "I am participating here in good faith with the object of providing much-needed balance to th[e Snowden] article, which is overly sympathetic to its controversial subject." When asked to specifically point out how the Snowden article is biased, Valeron never responds. Instead Brian Dell pops in with another long OR rant.

Valeron has become very hostile, and besides admittedly following my edits at Snowden by seconds, looking for any mistake, he also followed me to Laura Poitras supposedly fueled by the need to set things straight: the Pulitzer was not given to her, but to WaPo and Guardian. However both Glenn Greenwald and Barton Gellman's articles contained the same information and were, until I pointed this out to John, left untouched. Valeron is now {cn} tagging Poitras instead of finding the citations. He tagged "1971"'s release at Tribecca, whilst a simple search finds very good, recent articles about its release.

Brian Dell:

• As recently as April 14, Brian Dell was continuing his edit war, calling cited information OR dreamed up by User:Binksternet and inserting "allegedly" in the Lede.
• Dell continues to push this theme, with the edit summary: ""allegedly" stranded. Legal experts say there is no legal distinction between the airport and the rest of Russia. And no independent journalist verified that he was in the airport transit zone"
• Dell adds "reportedly" to cited information, arguing "supposedly he was stranded. The story does not hold up under scrutiny"
• Earlier Dell declares a Fox news article "demonstrably false" and changes the Lede in this same edit war.
• This is where Dell first appeared with his theory.
• Here is where Dell followed me on this same day to Jimbo's talk page to make some remarks.
• Here is where he followed me to an NSA awareness WikiProject I was working on.
• In this comment at the WikiProject, he justifies making this POV change to the Russ Tice article saying it was done "to more fully inform the reader about the reliability of this "whistleblower." He also states "Over at Talk:Edward_Snowden#Passport I've pointed out the problems with the line that it is the U.S. that has marooned Snowden in Russia, as opposed to Snowden or the Kremlin's own choice. These matters are all concerned with getting the facts right. If you've worked in media you'd know that there is huge popular demand for conspiracy theories." About NSA spying revelations, he states, "The truth is that this charge against the US government has been grossly exaggerated in the media."
• When news broke that there were statements made by some US officials about wanting Snowden dead, Dell had this (predictable) response.

Besides the obvious POV pushing by both of these editors, the hostility aimed at me and others who may oppose or question them needs to be addressed. No WP editor should repeatedly come into contact with this type of behaviour - the aggression is over the top, and better suited for YouTube comment sections. Brian Dell should be topic banned (an IBAN is also a consideration), and an IBAN against Valeron would be very much appreciated. I guarantee the Snowden article and Wikipedia would be better off for it, and would not be damaged in any way by these bans. But I am no expert, the response that would reinstate a sane, peaceful environment at Snowden (read: pre-Dell, pre-Valeron, circa Sep-Nov '13) is likely better determined by administrators. petrarchan47tc 22:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan47 has now outdone herself in sheer, malicious perfidy, posting comments that I myself reconsidered and deleted within minutes. Clearly, Petrarchan47 will stop at nothing in her toxic efforts to poison the editorial atmosphere surrounding the Edward Snowden article. JohnValeron (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty fucking ballsy of JohnValeron to accuse me of trying to "control" the Edward Snowden article, when he's made over 100 edits to it in the last week alone (over 300 in the last year), and I've made three edits in total. And to say that I edited without discussion is equally ludicrous, considering that the discussion took place right here on this thread, with his involvement. I suggest that if anyone's trying to "own" the Snowden article, or push a POV into it, it sure as hell isn't me. I also suggest that an admin might like to try to machete their way through the jungle of rapid-fire edits over there to see if some level of protection isn't called for to get things to stop so that reasoned discussion can take place. BMK (talk) 00:23, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

No reasoned discussion about the Edward Snowden article can take place here, on an adversarial ANI where I stand falsely accused and where my accuser is calling for Brian Dell and me to be banned. Any "consensus" about editing Edward Snowden arrived at within this ANI is illegitimate. The regular editors of the Snowden article do not follow ANI. We follow Talk:Edward Snowden, which is where all editorial discussions rightly belong. JohnValeron (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Bullshit, consensus is consensus, and it remains so even when it goes against you, and no matter where it takes place. Usually the article talk page is the best place for consensus discussions to take place, but when someone tries to dominate the discussion there it may have to take place in other venues. Besides, you've misread my comment above - if an admin were to fully protect the article - which I think would be fully justified by the volume and speed of the editing there, which indicates knee-jerk responses rather than well-considered action - then the reasoned discussion I was speaking about should take place there and not here.

At this point, however, editors have clearly despaired of getting any balance there while you and others continue to duke it out, and have come here for relief. Having felt the (temporary) sting of your displeasure, I understand precisely what they're talking about - you're trying to browbeat people into submission because you disagree with their POV (or what you perceive as their POV, which may well be mistaken), and that makes your editing as bad as theirs is, if they are also pushing a POV, as you claim. I still think temporary full protection would help, as would your thinking before you act. 04:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree, full protection and Admin oversight for a while is a worthwhile consideration. petrarchan47tc 18:42, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• User:Jehochman once filled this role at the Snowden page. We also spoke in January about bringing the article to GA status. It might be worth checking into these options as a way to cool the current edit warring and hostility. petrarchan47tc 23:46, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I personally don't edit the Snowden article because, to be frank, my feelings about him are fairly negative. I think that's the best course of action in dealing with a BLP in which one holds a negative POV - stay away. JohnValeron might want to consider doing that too. Coretheapple (talk) 10:54, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them. Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight.

Wikipedia's due weight policy explains, "Neutrality requires that each article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." As I pointed out above, former NSA director Mike McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic" is reliably sourced to New York magazine. McConnell served as U.S. Director of National Intelligence during the period when Snowden was employed by the CIA, which reports to the DNI. After leaving that post, McConnell rejoined Booz Allen Hamilton to lead the firm's intelligence business, and was vice chairman throughout Snowden's brief (less than three months) tenure as a BAH employee. These high-level positions give McConnell's perspective on Snowden significant weight. Moreover, our now-deleted quotation of McConnell provided the only balance to an otherwise self-serving 1,074-word subsection that includes 566 of Snowden's own words (53% of the total), plus paraphrasing of his views not directly quoted and statements by his enabler Laura Poitras. By excluding a single sentence—all of 23 words—spoken by a prominent critic of Snowden's motivations, you are totally suppressing a verifiable point of view that has sufficient due weight. In violation of policy, you are promoting Wikipedia's unbalanced cheerleading on behalf of Edward Snowden. JohnValeron (talk) 15:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

McConnell can hold any opinion about Snowden he wants, and can express them to anyone he wants to, but he's not qualified to discuss Snowden's psychological makeup in our article because he has no training or expertise in that area. He can say that Snowden is a traitor or that he's damaged his country or that he ought to be clapped in irons or that he's selfish or immature or whatever, because these are things anyone can say about anybody, but when he says that Snowden is a "narcissist", he's making a psychological evaluation, and he is not qualified to do that, and he can't be in our article expressing that opinion except, perhaps, as an example of people's reactions to Snowden's actions. BMK (talk) 16:23, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Dictionary.com provides two definitions of narcissist:

1. a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish.

2. Psychoanalysis. a person who suffers from narcissism, deriving erotic gratification from admiration of his or her own physical or mental attributes.

Neither Wikipedia's biography of Mike McConnell nor the sentence you seek to suppress in Edward Snowden identifies McConnell as a psychologist or psychiatrist. His opinion of Snowden as a "narcissist" is not a clinical evaluation, and only pro-Snowden editors such as yourself would so willfully and disingenuously misconstrue it. McConnell is using the term in its popular, not medical, sense. Note that Wikipedia quotes Yogi Berra as saying about baseball, "90% of the game is half mental." Are you going to suppress that, too, because Mr. Berra is not a credentialed mental health professional? JohnValeron (talk) 17:01, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Your WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality is showing - I am not "Pro-Snowden". In point of fact I have decidedly mixed feelings about what he did, including my belief that anyone who thinks that their government isn't in some way "spying" on them is a fool, and that such monitoring is, to some degree both necessary and harmless. But you don't know that, because you are, clearly and by your own admission, "anti-Snowden", and because I reverted one of your edits that must make me "pro-Snowden", thus throwing WP:AGF out the window.

I reverted your edit because the guy doesn't have the chops to make that kind of statement and have it appear in a Wikipedia article as a factual reason for Snowden's actions. You want to put in a "responses" section, that's different, the guy is notable and his allowed to have an opinion - he's just not allowed to express that opinion as fact on Wikipedia. You get it? It's the diference between "I think he's a narcissit" and "He did it because he's a narcissist." If you can't see the essential different between those two statements, and the need for the person saying the second one to have the right credentials, then you probably shouldn't be editing here.BMK (talk) 20:22, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Quid pro quo

Never let it be said that Petrarchan47 does not reward those gallant souls who spring to her defense here at ANI. Vote early and vote often, Wikipedians, for "must-read" commenter Coretheapple as Crony of the Week. JohnValeron (talk) 00:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Admin attention requested: Can I get an admin to give JV an WP:NPA warning? If nothing else, his serious lack of AGF is worrying. BMK (talk) 02:18, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with your broad argument on the McConnell quote, here, but the last time this came up at AN/I (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#User:Petrarchan47 Serial COI Accusations as Battlegrounding), I got more or less the same impression John has, although I would have expressed it more delicately. That said: John, knock it off. Wholesale snarkiness will only succeed in getting people to blow you off; there's plenty in Petrarchan's editing history, plainly and dispassionately expressed, to build a case against her. Choess (talk) 02:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Choess, I appreciate your advice, but I am not the least bit interested in building a case against Petrarchan47. As you imply, and as demonstrated by her shameless use of an Editor of the Week nomination to reward Coretheapple for supporting her in this meretricious ANI, Petrarchan47 is her own worst enemy. JohnValeron (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, now, isn't this enlightening? Following the link provided by Choess, I just read User:Petrarchan47 Serial COI Accusations as Battlegrounding posted to ANI less than a month ago by User:Geogene. It broadens one's perspective on Petrarchan47's generally antagonistic behavior and her contemptuous hostility in particular to editors who do not submit to her supposed authority. And guess who rushed to her support on that occasion? Why, our presumptive Editor of the Week, of course: Coretheapple. What a magnificent team they make! A true credit to Wikipedia. JohnValeron (talk) 15:33, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Dr Fleischman, before leaving WP last month, tried very hard to build a case against me. He went to people angry at me from the BP (Geogene) and March Against Monsanto (SecondQuanitzation/IRWolfie) articles and found willing participants to help find diffs for an eventual ANI. He asked MastCell and Drmies for help, both said no. MastCell has repeatedly said he has respect for me as an editor, and as for my complaints about Geogene (who eventually took me to ANI), he said: "Back in the day, I used to feel like there was a core of clueful editors who would support each other in these kinds of situations, but most of that core has been run off the site or decided they have better things to do than argue interminably with cranks and agenda accounts."

Geogene was canvassed by Dr F, who still has a list of my wrongdoings compiled, and who appeared to be helping Geogene with diffs for her unsuccessful ANI. Geogene came to the BP oil spill articles (where I met Coretheapple, and whom btw, I had been planning to nominate for months) and began making POV changes. Her biggest grievance was with the tremendously well-cited study mentioned in the Lede of Corexit (in this version). To end the edit war there, I slashed the Lede and removed mention of studies. Geogene, who purportedly wanted to help the Project, and improve the Corexit article specifically, has not been seen since. As was obvious from the start, her efforts seemed focused on removing content harmful to BP. Once that was done, there was no interest in actually working on the article, or WP for that matter. I noted that her appearance and frantic editing coincided with the announcement of BP's Clean Water Act trail. I was asked by other editors not to make such connections unless I have proof of COI, so I have agreed to stay silent in the future.

I do not see how that ANI plays into this one, however. Valeron's behaviour should not be tolerated, and there is no case to be made that it is justified by anything I have done, or by anything that has been said about me. The NPOV requirement for editors is not being met in his case, and I think a topic ban should be considered. Just today he was reverted at James R. Clapper and Edward Snowden for non-neutral editing. * * *

Whether my edits to Snowden have been POV has not been proven, nor has a case been made that the Snowden article is biased. I have put in a lot of time and work on that article, and the atmosphere there has driven away everyone else but the anti-Snowden editors. That has been pretty stressful, and is why I have opened this, my first ANI to see whether something can be done to stop this. petrarchan47tc 18:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

As usual, Petrarchan47 is lying to promote her punitive crusade to get me banned. The diffs she cites as evidence that "just today" I was reverted, actually date from May 2, 2014. Petrarchan47, who will do anything to get her way, is the most unethical editor I have ever encountered. JohnValeron (talk) 18:46, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

As usual I don't know what day it is. I am the most unethical editor EVER. John's ever-balanced, non-hyperbolic views will save the Pedia one way or another. Thank goodness we've got editors like this around. petrarchan47tc 18:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• Seriously, John, this is the type of "lie" that matters around here. Wouldn't you consider this unethical? petrarchan47tc 00:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I want to say that the accusations pointed at me (again) by user:petrarchan47 have been going on all over Wikipedia for months now and are harassment. They're also lies. We've discussed this on noticeboards and Petra still doesn't understand what that study is about. Even though I haven't been on here for more than a week, she is continuing to provoke me (with the above). I sincerely believe that there are some serious psychological issues with her involving paranoia and a sense of being persecuted by pretty well anyone that disagrees with her, and we cannot fix those problems here, and which make her unsuitable for Wikipedia. I have no doubt that this will eventually get her banned. That's my say. Geogene (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

IBAN for JohnValeron

I have seen too many disruptive actions taken against Petrarchan47 by JohnValeron. This behavior should be addressed by IBAN.
JohnValeron was working on the Chelsea Manning biography and the court case United States v. Manning in the summer and autumn of 2013. In late December 2013, he encountered Petrarchan47 at the Edward Snowden biography, at the Sibel Edmonds biography, and at the article about Global surveillance disclosures (2013–present). Talk page relations were civil at first but by February 2014 the tone was strained, then icy with disdain and hurtful irony: "Wikipedia should permanently lock out all editors except Petrarchan47, whose sole proprietorship would be beyond reproach." By March, JohnValeron was engaged in WP:BATTLEGROUND confrontation, trying to get a rise out of Petrarchan47 by referring back to the "sole proprietorship" comment: "I earnestly hope this meets with approval and does not offend particular editors with an aggravated sense of sole proprietorship over this article." Also: baiting Petrrarchan47 with this comment: "...rest assured that the ever-vigilant Petrarchan47 has undone my revisions in toto." At the end of March JohnValeron was accusing Petrarchan47 of having "paranoid fantasies", and insulting her with the term "schoolmarm"—a sexist putdown intended to stifle discussion. The April 8 comment "petrarchan47 has zero credibility" was a gross attack, a poisoning of the well to remove Petrarchan47 from effective discussion. I suggest that JohnValeron should be given an interaction ban with regard to Petrarchan47. Binksternet (talk) 02:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

IMO, given the admission of POV towards the topic, a TBAN could also be considered. petrarchan47tc 08:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose As wondrously premature, and use of a draconian solution, which rarely actually works. A POV is not a "disqualification" but simply an indication that the person must assiduously work towards compromise and accept that others have differing POVs. Collect (talk) 12:44, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Support If we can get rid of this problem, I will Die happy, This user has committed Personal Attacks against a single target, just remove contact with that target. Boom, done - Happy Attack Dog (Bark! Bark!) 14:00, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I would like nothing better than to stop interacting with Petrarchan47. If you could craft an IBAN that did not in effect amount to a topic ban against my editing Edward Snowden, I'd be the first to endorse it. But as a practical matter, it is impossible to avoid this proprietary, pro-Snowden partisan intent upon, as she wrote above, "implicating" the United States Government. Petrarchan47 has singlehandedly made 19% of all 6,106 edits to said article. She has racked up as many edits as the next three most active users combined. She is inescapable and intransigent. Moreover, her domination of Wikipedia's Edward Snowden has long since passed from good-faith stewardship into exclusive ownership, enforced first with haughty reverts and ultimately, as seen here, with vindictive demands that editors who dare to trespass on her turf be banned—under whatever pretext she and her supporters can contrive. Is this any way to run an encyclopedia? JohnValeron (talk) 15:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, Perhaps you would like a TBAN to be kept away from editors who you commit Personal Attacks on? Maybe we could Implement Both and Get 2 birds with one stone? Happy Attack Dog (Bark! Bark!) 14:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban on editing Edward Snowden per Binksternet. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Strong oppose I see no basis for an IBAN or a TBAN on JohnValeron. Certainly he has made some uncivil comments, and for those he should be sternly admonished. But that is no basis for a permanent sanction; an admonishment by an administrator should be more than sufficient, and if John ends up re-offending then the issue can be re-examined. I've also seen no evidence that John has had any trouble interacting with those outside of Petrarchan47 and those defending her, and that alone means a TBAN is inappropriate. At the same time, I also feel strongly that this thread should boomerang against Petrarchan47, who seems incapable of working collaboratively with anyone with whom she disagrees on any topic. Plenty of evidence of that, and she has even been warned by an admin on ANI. (If there's sufficient interest in posting evidence against Petrarchan here, please put a note on my user talk, as my wiki bandwidth is extremely low these days.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

NOTE, PLEASE READ: I am deeply disturbed that a large number of my views and comments have been discussed, interpreted, and fought over in this ANI thread by several editors without anyone haven giving me any notice whatsoever. Believe it or not, I still exist despite my current wikibreak. Worse, several of my past contributions and comments have been grossly mischaracterized. I don't want to get into a pissing match about comments made over a week ago so I'll just say, folks, please don't do that again. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose This IBAN does not solve the numerous issues with Petrarchan47's conduct. She mentioned that I recently "disappeared". Yeah--because I can't stand dealing with her horrible personality any longer. She makes editing Wikipedia intolerable. She ought to be site banned forever!! Geogene (talk) 18:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Since this thread has now surpassed 9,000 words—far more, in my opinion, than the issue warrants—please let me reiterate something I wrote in my first post here, seven long days and 8,400 contentious words ago.

• In the heat of anger, I lashed out, calling [Petrarchan47] a butcher and castigating her ineptitude. For that I am sorry. I apologize to Petrarchan47 and to the entire Wikipedia editorial community. I will henceforth strive to keep my temper in check.

I trust the admin who resolves this ANI will not overlook those 42 words, and will forgive my lapse in civility. JohnValeron (talk) 18:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Request for Admin: I'd like to take this opportunity here to ask an admin to administer a short-term block on Petrarchan47 for her COI accusation against me in this thread [118] which is part of a much larger pattern of serial COI accusations against me (see, e.g., User:MastCell's talk page), and in which she actually says that she has been asked by other editors to stop this behavior (but apparently is unable to stop). She continues to break the rules while admitting that she knows she is breaking the rules, I find this absurd. Geogene (talk) 22:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Obvious canvassing is obvious Apparently we should all find it a coincidence that two editors, User:Geogene and User:DrFleischman, both suddenly came back to editing after weeks of absence to come to JoshValeron's defense on the same day. Looking at their contribs, Geogene hasn't edited since 23 April (2 weeks 1 day ago) and DrFleischman hasn't edited since 27 March (6 weeks ago). And yet, like Wiki-magic, here they are within an hour of each other. Methinks someone canvassed via email.--v/r - TP 17:54, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Obvious canvassing is obvious Well, you're wrong. Of course, you'd have no way of knowing that. Geogene (talk) 18:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Of course I'm wrong, because if I'm right then you three are now in violation of WP:MEAT for abusive off-wiki coordination. I couldn't possibly expect you to admit such a thing. But the edits speak for themselves.--v/r - TP 18:05, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
      • Oh, well, I suppose when I logged in and saw that I could have noticed how recently Fleischman's reply was, anticipated your suspicion, and waited a few hours so that you wouldn't jump to conclusions. But that would be guile, now wouldn't it? Besides, even if I had been responding to an email canvass, my arrival time would have been determined by how often I check my email, which is sometimes not that often. My "canvassed" arrival might have happened at any time after I got your hypothetical email, so your "canvassing" theory doesn't eliminate this coincidence so your logic doesn't lead anywhere. Geogene (talk) 18:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

User:TParis, if you're alleging that I canvassed DrFleischman, Geogene or anyone else by email, that is an outrageous lie, which I emphatically deny. This is a low blow even for you, TParis—the Wikipedia Administrator who famously doesn't give a fuck. JohnValeron (talk) 18:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very much alleging it. And if you think me not giving a fuck is a novel idea that will outrage or shock anyone, you're seriously mistaken. Feel free to share it with everyone. No one...cares.--v/r - TP 18:50, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I care. JohnValeron (talk) 18:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah. So Tparis may not really be ignorant, only involved in a dispute with JohnValeron. I feel so much better now. Geogene (talk) 19:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I've been angry for as long as these accusations have gone for months without even an admin admonishment, but this really takes all. A basic understanding of logic should be required before anyone gets the Tools. But for his education, before he decides to solve more "mysteries" I suggest he read Littlewood's Law [119] and the Post-hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy [120]. Geogene (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

In a discussion on TParis' talk page, I have demanded that he either conduct a SPI or retract his meatpuppet accusation. I don't want him to slink off from his disruptive accusations like he didn't make them. Geogene (talk) 20:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

TP, I don't know what you have against me, but your accusation is completely unsubstantiated and false. You and I have no history so I don't know what your beef with me would be. The fact that an experienced admin would throw out such complete horseshit reflects very poorly on this community and its governance. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

All I have against you are weeks of inactivity and then you suddenly showing up miraculously and within an hour of someone else who has been inactive with the claim that it was a cosmic miracle that you both show up to defend John on the same day. Other than that, I hold no ill-will toward you or anyone.--v/r - TP 01:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

CFD of Category:Pseudoscientists

Please could some experienced admin(s) keep an eye of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 May 1#Category:Pseudoscientists?

The debate is attracting a lot more participants than I have seen at CFD for some time, and there several suggestions that sock/meat puppets may be swelling the numbers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Not sure how much this has to do with this but it may be attracting a lot of editors because of several different discussions referring to Pseudoscience that have popped up lately, here and on DRN. Not entirely sure how related they may be.--Maleko Mela (talk) 23:52, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I suspect some people participating in the CFD may have came from the Fringe Theories Noticeboard (diff). Would the result of this CFD count as WP:FALSECON? Probably. -A1candidate (talk) 00:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Unlikely. There are many eyes on this. Guy (Help!) 01:32, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't rule out those who came from FTN. -A1candidate (talk) 01:42, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Probably does, most of them are policy savvy. As to fringe, the idea that the cold war is still going on is waaaaay out there. Guy (Help!) 03:08, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Have you even read them? How policy savvy are subjective statements such as "The cat is appropriate for some articles and should not be deleted? If you want to convince me that the Cold War is over, you're free to do it at my talk page. -A1candidate (talk) 04:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

1. Yes I have.

2. I don't have to,m the consensus view of the relevant professional community is that it ended in the last decade of the 20th Century...

3. Which is relevant because as an advocate of an obviously fringe POV, your snide remarks about FTN are going to be accorded little weight. Guy (Help!) 08:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It was also the consensus view of the relevant professional community for quite some time that the world was flat, that smoking was good for you, etc. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:49, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

And had Wikipedia existed the, we would presumably have reflected that. We weren't. There were no pseudoscientists back then, because we only had the vaguest idea how science should be done: it was really natural philosophy not science. And it was the scientific process that showed the world is not flat, just as it showed that life on earth evolved by natural selection, human behaviour is changing the global climate, and perpetual motion is basically impossible. Guy (Help!) 22:50, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Had Wikipedia existed in those days, people like Nicolaus Copernicus would have been outnumbered by the hordes who blindly trust the doctrines of the mainstream Catholic Church. There were alchemists back then, just like there are pseudoskeptics today. What obstructed progess in those days was not natural philosophy, but religious doctrine. Likewise, the thing that obstructs progess today is not religious doctrine, but academic dogma based on the mainstream opinions of "experts" and skeptics who pretend to be critical about a certain subject but in fact know little about the natural world. -A1candidate (talk) 03:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia would have been absolutely correct to label Copernicus' theory at the time as not accepted by the mainstream of natural philosophers. As he gained adherents, it would then have been mentioned as a theory with growing acceptance among those philosophers, and when it finally received acceptance, our article would be about it, with previous theories being discussed in their historical context, and the people who hung on to them would be described as "fringe". That's because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and an encyclopedia, as we define it today, must be by its very nature conservative, because it aims to be as accurate as possible, and out guide to accuracy is acceptance by experts. An encyclopedia does not break ground, it does not introduce new theories, except in the context of how they differ from accepted explanations, it does not attempt to convey "Truth" with a capital "T" only the current state of our knowledge.

Also, you mischaracterize history: the alchemists did not impede the growth of knowledge, they were the primary factor in creating what became the science of chemistry. They weren't "pseudoscientists" because there was no "science" at the time, therefore no "pseudoscience". Yes, they also held beliefs that we now know sent them off into unhelpful territory, but they weren't the bad guys, they were the best we had at that time, and they helped advance the state of our collective knowledge. BMK (talk) 21:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Give it a couple centuries, and today's scientists will probably be viewed the way we view alchemists today. That's just how progress works. When the handful of fringe scientists turn out to have actual, real breakthroughs, with proven and reproducible results covered by mainstream experts and journalists, then those particular scientists will no longer be fringe. -- Atama頭 23:13, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

See WP:BALL. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:21, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Also see Mertonian norms. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's my point. We go by what has scientific consensus today. We have no way of knowing what may or may not be valid in the future, we can't predict it, so we have to go by what we know now, however future generations may judge us. -- Atama頭 18:30, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Pan-Turkist (Pan-Turanist) users invaded several articles with fringe and unreliable content

They bring unreliable changes and false content to many articles. Their edits are against wikipedia policies. List of these users:

• Hirabutor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Su4kin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kleropides (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Radosfrester (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

They infected many articles. User:Hirabutor is a disruptive user. --114.160.71.150 (talk) 21:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Since the user did not notify any of the editors, I have put ANI notices on all of the users talk pages. TheMesquito^buzz 22:57, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

User Hirabutor may be disruptive in the IP's mind due to his pro-Turkish edits, but it looks like this user makes use of reliable sources. And as long as he can provide reliable sources without using them purposefully, it is consistent with the behaviour guidelines. If you want to check sources concerning their credibility you can also make use of Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. User Kleropides looks almost unbiased, about user Su4kin I have no idea, except that he is more concentrated in genetic/anthropological articles. But, just wait a moment... why putting my name here? At all, I see no signs of a forthcoming Turkish invasion. Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 11:26, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Because they're sock puppets (you - the puppet master - and them). Mods must check your ips. --114.160.71.150 (talk) 05:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any reasons for this cherry picked assumption, except your prejudice on a certain group of people? Give us some clues so that we can follow your way of thought. If I should be a sock master, can you explain me then why user Hirabutor is active since 21 October 2013, whereas I am active since 30 November 2013? In addition, there are only 4 edits (out of 70) I have in common with your supposed sock users: 1, 2, 3. 4. In case 1 there are 4-6 months between user Hirabutor and me. In case 2 there are nearly 5 months between user Su4kin and me. In case 3 there are 4 months between user Su4kin and me. And finally, the fourth case, its the only one where my edits overlapped with those of user Hirabutor in a short time distance. At last, I suggest that your discomfort results from this article: Turanid race. So, my advice to you is to solve your problem by confronting other users (-by using your account-) with reliable content backing your position instead of suspecting other people. If you are not able to do it, and I say it again with all explicitness, you are completely wrong here. And here you can get help: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request. Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 11:55, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

@ Anonymous IP: Can you tell me how I can become a member of this "Pan-Turanist" invasion? This sounds very interesting to me. --Kleropides (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

You're the banned User:Tirgil34. All of you claim that you're Germans from Germany. Germans who are interested in Pan-Turkism/Pan-Turanism and Turkification of wikipedia articles! Your behaviors and your edit patterns are exactly similar to Tirgil34 and his puppets: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tirgil34. --46.143.214.22 (talk) 03:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear IP, I am not German and I am not seeing the connection between me and the banned user. But it looks like you have a personal uneasiness with central Asian-related issues. Your Iranian IP-adress perhaps confirms this suspicion. Additionally, it looks like you are interested in a de-Turkification of wikipedia articles. I am sure there are quite more IP's you are currently using for this motive. I would also advise you to refrain from such false reports. Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 12:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll submit my proofs. It needs a complete subsection. An example is your edits (you and your puppets) on Nart saga. Why you and User:Hirabutor, User:Tirgil34 (his ips, his socks) are too similar to each other, and your are interested to remove same content from Nart saga and insert same content? Your edits on Nart saga is exactly similar to banned User:Tirgil34's edits. Hirabutor is a disruptive editor who inserts Turkish nationalist content in articles. User:Ergative rlt and User:Dougweller found some of his unreliable additions. User:Su4kin's edits on Sarmatians are pro-Turk and not reliable. He did falsification on some other articles too. These are just example of your disruptive edits. Mods must check all of your ips and accounts, because you are related to each other. You and your puppets infected many articles. You play with different accounts, and all of those accounts edit same topics. Don't you agree User:Tirgil34? --114.179.18.35 (talk) 11:25, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The only point where I can agree with you, dear IP, is that User:Su4kin made unreliable additions at Sarmatians. None of the sources are anywhere near the quality of source required for a section on genetics. The only possibility to include it, is to find a peer-reviewed paper -> Wikipedia:SYNTH. It is apparent that both of you guys act with nationalistic arguments (pro-Turk/Iran doesn't matter) and none of them are in accordance with Wikipedia:TE or Wikipedia:DE (-> Wikipedia:COI). I urgently hope my edit in Nart saga is not your only evidence. And if there is any falsification on some other articles you are cordially invoked to indicate them here. Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 13:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

POV-pushing SPA

Ichrio Nazuki (talk · contribs) account created a few days ago in order to make unsourced POV edits to the Battle of Busan article.[121] User:Oda Mari has already pointed out that this is probably a sock account, but I'm not sure of whom. 182.249.241.38 (talk) 08:47, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I see three small edits to the infobox of this article by Ichrio Nazuki, removing unsourced assessments of the battle with different unsourced assessments of it. He started a conversation on the article talk page on April 30th which has not been responded to by any other editors. I think this is a content dispute that should be discussed on the talk page, not here. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:31, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a long-running edit war. Oshi niko (talk · contribs) apparently felt he had "lost", so he created a new account and continued edit warring. He continues to refuse to use refs. User:Oda Mari provided a ref (admittedly not a great one), to the effect that Ichrio has turned to badmouthing her to other editors. "this user has an issue of camouflaging historical facts" clearly indicates he is HERE to RIGHTGREATWRONGS. 182.249.241.22 (talk) 14:54, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

If Ichrio Nazuki and Oshi niko are suspected as the same person, an SPI can be opened. If the accounts are related, they can be blocked per WP:NOTHERE, as stated above. Epicgenius (talk) 19:16, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

But the problem is that Nazuki is removing an unsourced sentence in an infobox and adding a different unsourced sentence. I'm not saying he is right or wrong but the information he is replacing isn't sourced either. Since the point of contention is how to assess the outcome of a battle, it should really be discussed on the article talk page or DRN, not AN/I. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:28, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

A source has been provided for the claim he is opposing. I'm not a fan of the source, but all he has done is claim his opponent is "trying to hide the truth", without citing a source. He posted on the talk page, without citing a source. He posted on Oda Mari's talk page, without citing a source. He attacked Oda Mari on another user's talk page, without citing a source. Even if Oda Mari's source is problematic, the burden is on Mr. Nazuki to provide a better source that says something else. 182.249.241.25 (talk) 02:11, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

• As far as socking, if you compare the contribs, you see [122] and [123], so one account stopped and the other account started. It could be they lost a password (granted, unlikely considering the closeness of timing), or abandoned the account for whatever reason, so "socking" is a tough charge to make stick even if they ARE the same person. "Overlap" is one of those things that they want to see at SPI. Next, Liz really makes the main point, that this looks like more of a content dispute than anything. If it is all unsourced, maybe all of it needs to go. Or someone could go look up a reference and just cite it. If they keep slow reverting each other, someone may end up full protecting the page, at WP:RFPP, forcing a discussion. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:37, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't there need to be disclosure if theyre the same person? Howunusual (talk) 01:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

• If there is overlap, yes, but there isn't at this time. If they are the same person, abandoning an account and starting another isn't good practice, but it happens regularly for a variety of reasons. Again, it all boils down to having two accounts for "abuse". And it might not be the same person, making all of this moot. Personally, I haven't tried to figure out if they are the same person because I don't see abuse. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

The closest thing to abuse is at Ichrio Nazuki's first edits, where they're perpetuating the edit war started by Oshi Niko. However, it wasn't done in such a way to get around 3RR restrictions so I don't see how the multiple accounts were used to gain any sort of advantage. Oshi Niko never received so much as a warning so the account was about as clean as you can get. Maybe they wanted a name change and bypassed WP:CHU by just abandoning one account and starting with another one? I really don't dispute that they are the same person (they have an identical POV and the new account took over right where the old account left off) but as long as Oshi Niko doesn't edit again I see no multiple account abuse. So I totally agree with Dennis Brown, this is a content dispute. -- Atama頭 19:15, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I think Ichrio Nazuki and Oshi niko are the tip of the iceberg. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Junohk, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ichrio Nazuki, and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sonnykim9873. Oda Mari (talk) 08:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

They are blocked. Oda Mari (talk) 15:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon

Mallexikon was blocked on the 29th for edit warring at Traditional Chinese medicine. He had repeatedly tried to insert the claim that Traditional Chinese medicine was a protoscience into the article. Since returning he has found a new source and has resumed trying to incert the claim that Traditional Chinese medicine is a protoscience into the article by writing that Traditional Chinese medicine is a “pre-science” and piping it to protoscience. The source that he has used to do this does not support the claim that Traditional Chinese medicine is a protoscience and Mallexikon was informed of this, but apparently doesn’t care. He has also tried to insert the “protoscience” claim into the Acupuncture article.

However, the larger problem is Mallexikon’s decision to engage in race baiting on Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine. [[124]] And his subsequent decision to engage in taunting when Dominus Vobisdu objected to his remarks about race. [[125]] Mallexikon has apparently decided that “white males” or those he suspects of being white males are not allowed to call Traditional Chinese medicine a pseudoscience.

Editors with racial agendas are notoriously difficult to deal with and Mallexikon’s refusal to get a consensus before reinserting disputed material makes him even more disruptive. I ask that a topic ban be considered. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is correct to call Mallexikon's comments "race-baiting". For example, his first comment on this included this remark:

• "Why use a source for this at all, since we have so many smart people on WP agreeing on it? And within no time, WP will look exactly like all of us white male tech/science-friendly geeks like it."

So, he is characterizing the majority of Wikipedia editors (including himself) as white, male, tech/science-friendly geeks. And then he says his "Wow, the white/male/tech-friendly assumption really hit a nerve in you, did it?" And he said this on April 29th, the day he was blocked. Nothing since.

First, I'm not sure that this is a mischaracterization of the demographics of Wikipedia editors. And second, he was including himself in his observation. I'm not sure who he is "baiting". Third, aside from these two remarks, I don't see any further comments about whiteness on this talk page (but I haven't looked at his edits to other pages). I think if more incidents of this occur, it is might be worth looking into. But I'm not sure if observing that most editors of Wikipedia are white males really qualifies as having a "racial agenda". Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:09, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Liz, Mallexikon was blocked for edit warring. His inappropriate comments to Dominus Vobisdu have not yet been addressed. Also, he has continued to edit problematically after returning from his block.

Mallexikon’s comment to Dominus Vobisdu was an attempt to control another editor through appeal to racial sentiment. Such tactics have no place on Wikipedia as they are an attempt to shut down civil discussion.

I also cannot understand how any reasonable person could deny that “Wow, the white/male/tech-friendly assumption really hit a nerve in you, did it?” is obvious taunting. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I cannot understand how any reasonable person could deny that this is a pathetic attempt at censorship.Herbxue (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon’s previous comment in December last year was Everybody's complaining about WP being too white / male / tech-friendly influenced, and everybody's always talking about how incivility should not be tolerated - but obviously that's just talk. Thanks a lot, guys. The edit summary was white / male / tech-friendly WP raising its ugly head. He seems to have a battleground mentality at the Acupuncture related articles when you look at the contributions. QuackGuru (talk) 20:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

After being blocked, Mallexikon is continuing to edit war. After the source was deleted by User:JzG and there was no consensus Mallexikon ignored there was no consensus to restore the source. He repeatably restored the source against CON.[126][127][128][129][130] According to this comment any editor can issue an alert to Mallexikon, with {{Ds/alert}}. QuackGuru (talk) 18:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Consensus had never been achieved.Herbxue (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon is one of the few reasonable editors at acupuncture, and by reasonable I mean respectful of sources as well as mindful of NPOV. In my opinion Quack Guru is the most guilty of edit warring at TCM and acupuncture. While Mallexikon has proposed seeking compromise wording, QG and Dominus have refused to take that offer in good faith and instead have focused on him. Its ridiculous. If anyone considers banning Mallexikon I recommend reading a larger sample of talk page discussions.Herbxue (talk) 00:57, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

You also tried to delete the text against CON.[131][132]

Sorry, but consensus had not been achieved, and my attempts at compromise wording were reverted by you without discussion. Mallexikon also attempted compromise wording, but you refused to AGF and only pushed your version of the edit with NO attempt at achieving a consensus. Herbxue (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Trying to delete well sourced text from the lede at TCM did not work for Mallexikon. So what is the next step. Rewriting the text at the various articles to bring doubt to the term pseudoscience. When the idea is to undermine what the reliable source says by whitewashing the term pseudoscience when you or another editor can't delete it from the lede, that is not a content dispute. That is a battle ground mentality. There is no point to having quotes in the lede or adding "has been described as". The text largely pseudoscience was correct before. The same kind of thing happened to the lede at TCM. He is moving text around that does not follow the same order as the body. QuackGuru (talk) 01:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

76.107.171.90, QuackGuru and Dominus Vobisdu are some of a group of hawkish editors desperate to include the assertion "TCM is pseudoscience" to the lede of the Chinese medicine article, trying to use an inadequate source, and rigidly resisting any compromise (the current compromise is "TCM has been described as largely pseudoscience", which I happily supported). Please find my more detailed view on this dispute here at the DR/N. The DR/N thread was started by me.

Yes, I have been blocked 24 hrs for edit warring over this (first time ever for me), and I'm sorry - I got caught up in the heat. I'd like to point out though, that the admin who blocked me simultaneously warned QuackGuru for edit warring as well [133]. The race baiting charge, however, is so ridiculous I'm not even going to comment on this.

Parallely to the DR/N thread, tentative consensus regarding this dispute has been found at Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#Labels: pseudoscience, protoscience, please take a look. This AN/I here is a pretty obvious attempt eliminate a perceived opponent (and/or to sabotage the consensus found at the talk page and/or the DR process) in a content dispute. I think that WP:BOOMERANG should apply, and would ask for a topic ban of 76.107.171.90. It also like to ask whether it is possible to check whether 76.107.171.90 is a sock puppet of any of the editors involved in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Traditional Chinese medicine. --Mallexikon (talk) 03:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon, saying “The race baiting charge, however, is so ridiculous I'm not even going to comment on this” is a classic Argumentum ad lapidem. You know that your racial comments are totally indefensible, so you are trying to shift the focus away from your obvious misbehavior and onto content issues. Let me be clear; if you had not taunted Dominus Vobisdu then we would not be here right now. Your decision to taunt Dominus Vobisdu after he took offense at your racial comments is obvious bullying.

If any administrator is tempted to think that this is a content issue then they can consider whether Mallexikon’s racial comments alone are sufficiently inappropriate to warrant sanction. The primary reason that I brought up Mallexikon’s problematic editing of Traditional Chinese Medicine is to show that Mallexikon’s racial bias affects his editing of articles and not just his talk page behavior.

Mallexikon, abusively and falsely accusing another editor of being a sock in an attempt to discredit them is a personal attack. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 06:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The only personal attack I see is this weak attempt to discredit Mallexikon while diverting attention from the important content issue which Mallexikon is seeking compromise wording for. The racial accusation is disingenuous bullshit and you know it. Stick to the content. Herbxue (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Herbxue, simply shouting “This is about content!”, “This is about content!” over and over again is not going to convince anyone. We are talking about the way that Mallexikon evoked race to try to get his way on Traditional Chinese Medicine, and the way that he taunted Dominus Vobisdu when Dominus Vobisdu objected to his comments. And we are also discussing whether Mallexikon’s bias prevents him from editing constructively within Traditional Chinese Medicine. Increasingly desperate attempts to divert attention away from a serious behavioral issue are not appropriate. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 08:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

You know what's not appropriate? You are doing this because you disagree with his edits, not because you are actually offended by him making an off-hand comment about white nerds. I'm a white nerd and I am not offended. I highly doubt DV actually felt threatened or insulted. This IS about content (you even referenced his "bias" above, which as far as I can tell he is skeptical of the value of TCM but is unwilling to violate WP policy and common sense to prove it, unlike the other editors here).Herbxue (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon is continuing to violate WP:ASSERT by adding weasel words not found in the source. QuackGuru (talk) 10:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

For what its worth, 76.107.171.90 has been blocked for two weeks for personal attacks and harassment of a different editor he has had conflict with in the pseudoscience area. It involved a talk page discussion where he was brainstorming about ways to get this user blocked. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 11:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• I disagree with Mallexicon on TCM, but more generally, we do have a problem with systemic bias; our content follows the interests of anglophone white male technophiles. I am uncomfortable with the idea that editors could be sanctioned for highlighting one of en.wikipedia's most widespread problems. bobrayner (talk) 10:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Almost constant insulting and abusive behaviour

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Luuluu MuuMuu (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) seems to be incapable of posting a response in a talk page without including an insulting or abusive remark. Further this user seems to have decided that their totally incorrect comprehension of a phenomenon must be right and therefore everyone else who tells this user that they are wrong is treated with contempt. This user has demonstrated and actually stated that they have no intention of discussing collaboratively. This user has a history of edit conflict and is clearly WP:NOTHERE to contribute collaboratively to the project.

This user seems relatively new, but is clearly familiar enough with Wikipedia policy that this is obviously a fresh start account. Even if it is genuinely a new user, they are familiar enough with the policy rules that there is little excuse for their battleground approach.

This started with Luuluu MuuMuu engaging in a minor edit war at Railway electrification system. Suffice to say that her argument was opposed by myself and two other editors (therefore some consensus of support for my edit exists). I attempted to discuss the point on Luuluu MuuMuu's talk page. This was met with a hostile and insulting response ([134]). There was also a threat from some policy that Luuluu MuuMuu had misunderstood ([135]).

I endeavoured once again to engage in the discussion without resorting to similar abuse ([136]) plus a note about the unnecessary abuse ([137]) - another user had contributed to the discussion prior to this point broadly supporting my stance. There followed a response from Luuluu MuuMuu that was incomplete, and inaccurate. I responded, again without resorting to incivility addressing all the points raised (some of which were not read or comprehended from the previous attempt). The result was further abuse ([138]). I responded emphasising the point in my previous response that Luuluu MuuMuu had either not understood or not bothered to read (I suspect the latter).

There was a response in incomprehensible English and a reply from me pointing this out. There followed another abusive post that was clearly stating that I was not worthy and that Luuluu MuuMuu was going to ignore me. Luuluu MuuMuu is entitled to ignore me but not to resort to abuse. It is clear that Luuluu MuuMuu does not understand a well understood phenomenon and consequently it does not exist. Luuluu MuuMuu thinks that he or she is right and therefore everyone else wrong. Luuluu MuuMuu is not interested in discussing it. This demonstrates a battle ground approach and a complete lack of intent to collaborate (WP:NOTHERE). It has been suggested by another that the 3rd, 5th and 6th criteria all apply - and I can't argue with that.

Another editor DieSwartzPunkt had contributed to the discussion, but Luuluu MuuMuu adopted the same abusive approach to that other editor ([139]) clearly refusing to collaborate with him or her either. There is even an implied allegation that because we are (more or less) agreeing with each other, that there is some relationship. The reality is that we are both disagreeing with Luuluu MuuMuu.

For the avoidance of doubt: the phenomenon in question has its own and fairly well referenced article at Skin effect which fully supports all points that I made. –LiveRail < Talk > 17:39, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

My take from the difs is that the user might be borderline uncivil a few times, the only actionable thing would be the last dif referring directly to you as a muppet. One PA will get them a warning but I don't think this has reached a level of confrontation that you require administrator involvement. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:49, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

You also neglected to inform them of your filing this ANI request as a heads up. I am doing so now. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

This is a little more than slight rudeness. Saying things like "It is clear from your comments above that you clearly do not understand the subject that you are attempting to discuss." in the context it was given is just a passive-aggressive, sugar coated way of calling someone an idiot. Civility isn't defined as insulting someone using sweet words, it is not insulting people at all. I would like another admin to take a look, but in eyes, this is insulting and uncivil. Not necessarily personal attacks, but this kind of behavior is known to run off good editors and shouldn't be brushed aside. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

In my defense I do believe that I was not in any way un-civil, considering that I was responding to a very concerted individual that was behaving highly defensive of his/her views. In my opinion, this mode of expressing ones view is not of a manner that I understand this encyclopedia entertains. I think that if one has to respond aggressively to uphold their views, that perhaps their view is not one that would be supported by a consensus of the population. I think that I have been subjected to an assault by two or three editors that have a view, but which does not in itself mean that it has consensus. I have tried, perhaps naively, to invoke Wikipedia protocols to diffuse the situation. The last protocol was that on WP:DENY in order to calm things down, but instead I find myself in court. - Luuluu MuuMuu (talk) 23:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

This isn't court, it is a discussion. Occasionally a lynch mob, but today, just a place for discussion. Let me be frank: You sound educated and informed, but you should stop commenting on other people's abilities. When you talk about other's skills, it comes across very, very arrogant and wins you no friends here. Spoken communication and typed communication are very different things, and the skills are not the same, although I'm not sure if that is the problem. We are all editors, we all have different skills, if you think someone is less informed, help inform them instead of getting defensive. Honestly, the most influential editors are those who are patient and tolerant, as they get the most respect. Not just as "experts", but as trustworthy and non-judgmental fellow editors. As a fellow editor, I promise you will have more success if dial back the personal observations and just stick to the verifiable facts. We are all on the same team, we all want good articles, but we all have to get along while building them. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I blocked Luuluu MuuMuu as a fairly obvious sock --Guerillero | My Talk 03:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Of whom? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Please see this and this. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 14:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Thank you, sir. I didn't see anything on the users block log or page to point there. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

When I posted this ANI, I was not convinced that it was going to fly. But then this sock puppet block came out of nowhere. Now that it has been linked with Bhtpbank, it makes perfect sense. Luuluu MuuMuu displays exactly the same lack of knowledge about the subject he tries to portray expertise on. I obviously just failed to notice the quacking noise in the background. Thank you gentlemen for you efforts. One question: is not the IP address used to generate all these sock-puppet accounts supposed to be blocked as well? –LiveRail < Talk > 15:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

It is automatically blocked for a day unless the admin chooses to not block it, but it doesn't matter. IP address are cheap, you can change one by cycling your modem, thus avoid a block easily. A checkuser can look to see the underlying IP, then block it longer, but usually that isn't helpful, thus is not usually done. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:34, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for that. At least, he should be easy to spot when if he pops up again. –LiveRail < Talk > 15:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I offer these edits to Railway electrification in Great Britain. I should have recognised the WP:POINTiness at the time. Related is this reply. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

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user removed my rfc for no reason and accused me of bad faith

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http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAfrikaner&diff=607348441&oldid=607348252, can someone revert his edits and explain to this user why he cannot do such disruptive edits 120.50.35.122 (talk) 18:09, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Rather than disruptive edits, it looks more like someone providing the reason for the removal and some helpful advice about talk page guidelines. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:46, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Also the consensus is clear on the main talk page about it, also the IP has edited thing without proper consensus in the main article. All this seems to me, is the IP user trying to use AN/I for a content dispute. TheMesquito^buzz 19:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I intervened in an edit war over the article's hatnote, and posted a comment about it in a talk page section the IP had started. After another editor and I had commented there the IP edited the beginning of the section and turned it into a RFC without any explanation anywhere, changing the context of our comments. I reverted their changes to the beginning of the section and asked them to start their RFC in a new section. I clearly explained what I had done in the thread, with reference to relevant talk page guidelines, and I never accused them of bad faith. HelenOnline 20:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

• Also see conversation at User talk:Dennis Brown‎#user removed my rfc for no reason and accused me of bad faith. GB fan 20:07, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

  Déjà vu. Not that it is important, but I didn't see the purpose in an RFC when it could have been discussed on the talk page, as we depend on sources for this stuff, not votes. Now, as on my talk page, I will just bow out as I didn't see any merit to the complaint. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:20, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

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Admin eyes requested

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Hi, I was hoping to get some admin eyes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of programs broadcast by Cartoon Network (2nd nomination) please. A few of us believe a sock of Finealt is inappropriately nomming this article for AfD. I believe there to be possible vandal intentions. There are a few speedy keep noms already. There's an active SPI case on the account (linked earlier) but SPI is backlogged. Anyhow, hoping some admins could take a look and revert the disruptions if deemed disruptions. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 05:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• I've closed the two AfDs in question per WP:SNOW. I'm not familiar enough with Finealt to act on the SPI, alas, although from the descriptions I agree it sounds like a duck. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

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User:Aimperator reported by User:Nightscream

Aimperator responded to his block by King of Hearts by violating WP:CIV with this remark. An extension would not be inappropriate. Resumption of both edit warring and incivility on Aimperator's part is almost certain once the block expires later today. Nightscream (talk) 06:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

One does not need to be a rectum to be king of the rectums (he would have a large kingdom though!). After all, the most recent Easter Bunny isn't a bunny at all. That "venting" wasn't worth an extension, maybe a lock of the talkpage - but monitor his behaviour post-block the panda ₯’ 09:11, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, if admins really are kings, and editors peons, then maybe the appellation is accurate, in a metaphorical way of course. I mean, literally, well, rectums don't have fingers to typie on keyboards with. I'm reminded of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer accidentally gets the wrong vanity plate: "ASSMAN". Drmies (talk) 17:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

And let me just add, for clarity's sake, that IF the appellation were correct on the grounds of my supposition, it does not follow that ALL editors are rectums. Just the ones who are assholes, of course. Also, that remark was a week ago, though personal attacks made on Koninginnedag, a day of cheer and happiness, should weight twice as heavy. Nightscream, why not just stop poking that bear? Drmies (talk) 17:50, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Hoax creator back again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In January 2010, a nightmare ended when the article about the supposed Bosnian Royal Family was deleted as a hoax. Its creator used God knows how many accounts for several months to promote his delusional idea that he was the rightful heir to the throne of Bosnia ("His Majesty King of Bosnia and All of Illyria"), a kingdom that ended its existence in 1463 and whose kings have no known descendants. He is now back under the name Encarte. See this edit: "Dr. Omerbashich is a titular King of Bosnia and a theoretical physicist who reclaimed his family right to sovereignty to three thrones (Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia) in 2010." The source is extremely amusing - his wiki. The deleted article, as well as one of his websites, claimed all sorts of things, ranging from laughable to concerning. For example, the Queen of the United Kingdom and the Pope, apparently, personally orchestrated the Bosnian War, both allegedly representing states with inherent interest in destroying Bosnia. Anyway, I leave it to anyone interested in this to read Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bosnian Royal Family. I kindly ask an administrator to deal with this as soon as possible. It would be a huge waste of my time to again spend months combatting his delusions. Surtsicna (talk) 09:31, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

No idea what you're talking about. The source was not the one you gave in the above, but that given in the entry you deleted: the Bosnian royal family's press room. It is the same type of source that was used for the Bulgarian royal family's entry, for example. Interestingly, both press releases are dated 2010. Delusions lasting five years? I've heard of agendas lasting that long so I call agenda on your part. Proof: your calling a claim lasting for full 5 years a hoax, while complaining about your personal frustrations with it. Besides, the article is meant for listing the claimants from legit sources such as the Bulgarian royal family's as already mentioned. The article is not about establishing validity of their claims. Encarte (talk) 11:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Blocked as an obvious sockpuppet. I don't think we need editors that claim Bosnia or its current claimed pretender is "'under Vatican occupation (six always Catholic foreign governors with unlimited powers of a viceroy)'". Fram (talk) 11:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Fram (or someone else) can you please look at [140]. "With connections reaching from Queen Elizabeth II, President Shimon Peres, Virgin Mobile creator Richard Branson, and some of the most influential people of the world, Eleonore Maria Devin is reportedly one of the largest threats to mainstream royals." seems more of the same stuff. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

...ai yi yi. That smells of stinky socks to me, but regardless of whose it is they're blatantly WP:NOTHERE, so blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Undue retaliation, provocation and/or vandalism on Mitsubishi Magna article by User:OSX

Mitsubishi Magna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Raising this matter here, as suggested by User:Paine Ellsworth via my (talk) page yesterday.

COMPLAINT

In essence, and as is evident from the relevant View History content, over the last few days User:OSX has been:

1. accusing, insulting and patronising me;
2. compromising the photographical content of the article;
3. asserting undue entitlement by reference to presumed automotive photograph standards;
4. engaging in constant and vexatious page revisions without reason;
5. spamming my Talk page and complaining about my justified deletion of his vagaries.

all following from me supporting the change to the main photograph in the lead infobox of this article.

Examples of the inappropriate and presumptuous comments plus conduct in retaliation via View history [141] page include:

• (cur | prev) 06:49, 6 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,466 bytes) (-14)‎ . . (Wow, you really hate TEs. Anyway, I can keep upholding Wikipedia's image standards ad infinitum, can you?) = provoking retaliation
• (cur | prev) 04:12, 6 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,714 bytes) (+59)‎ . . (Using other IPs / fake accounts doesn't make you a different person) = baseless accusation
• (cur | prev) 01:06, 5 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,468 bytes) (+59)‎ . . (Revert: low-quality image. Image standards stipulate to use the best quality image. The TE is very representative of the Magna, being of one the most common models on the road, not a rare 1st gen model (most of which have been crushed).) = irrelevant & disingenuous claim since all motor vehicles will, in time, become rare and/or crushed
• (cur | prev) 13:40, 4 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,258 bytes) (+32)‎ . . (Revert: the VRX is an obscure special, it is not particularly representative of the Magna. Also, it is of low resolution.) = factually incorrect claim since the VRX was not an obscure special but one of the longest serving model variants in the [[Mitsubishi Magna history, as duly noted in the article.

User:OSX has escalated his vandalism and provocation by then compromising the content of the article through the deletion of Wikimedia Commons photographs that featured in the article. In the case of the 1st generation Magna, this resulted in that article being left with no representative photographs of sedans and empty thumbnails. For example refer to:

1) Deleted thumbnails example 2) Content prior to mass deletion in retaliation

User:OSX has also compromised the content of the page by insisting that the main photograph in the lead infobox of the article, not only be less representative (reasons below), but also by featuring a digitally altered photograph as he confirms via the View history' [142] page:

• (cur | prev) 05:04, 6 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,714 bytes) (+59)‎ . . (Well I am treating you as the same people. You are either the same people, or know each other and have spoken about this issue. The offending dent on the TE has been edited out.) (undo | thank)

REASONS FOR CHANGED LEAD INFOBOX PHOTO

Hatting some content-related discussion about a photo, not relevant for ANI. Drmies (talk) 15:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am a car enthusiast and owner of more than 1 series of the Mitsubishi Magna and I do not favour one series over the other. In the absence of any other information, User:OSX is an enthusiast automotive photographer as is evident from his Wikimedia gallery. He has relied heavily on WP:CARPIX when his own photograph of the white TE Magna is deficient because: It had a dent that has been digitally removed, distorting the real look of the vehicle at the front right corner It carries no model code or other descriptor, and it could easily be 1 of 2 discontinued nomenclatures (unlike ongoing VRX) It displays private registration plates It is less representative than the 1st generation TM-TP series, in the context of this historical article. in Australia, automotive media and publications ALWAYS rely on photographs of the first generation Magna (or, indeed, the last) for articles on historical vehicles. The online example quoted in the History refers to this self-explanatory article - http://www.drive.com.au/motor-feature/a-salute-to-australias-10-most-important-cars-20120119-1q7ik.html At the Australian Motor Museum in South Australia (where this vehicle was produced), the exhibited models are indeed the first generation Magna - see https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9543542653/ and https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9543532829 and https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9543551821 The only other Magna at the Museum is a 1996 Magna/Verada - see https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9546350234/ and https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9543569093 The significance of the first generation Magna is not that it was just the first, but also that it created the medium-large car sector in Australia (hence why the above DRIVE publication celebrates it as a Top 10 most important Australian car). The significance of the 1996 model above is that it is the first mass exported Australian-made vehicle to the USA. The TE Magna series, whose pic OSX is obsessively using, has no comparable significance and is not as representative of the Mitsubishi Magna dinasty. I request that User:OSX be brought back into line and allow the change to the main photograph in the lead infobox, not for capricious reasons as his are, but to enhance the value of this historical article. The Mitsubishi Magna is no longer in production in Australia and the TE series bears no particular significance in the course of its manufacture. Normally, I would also be expecting apologies for the unfounded and provoking comments made, except for the realization that User:OSX bear no value, as demonstrated by his bullying and erroneous nature. User:OSX's asinine "edit war" has been only over a picture and not any other substance of the article. Ironically, the first 1st generation Mitsubishi Magna used in the lead infobox was a User:OSX's own work, which he also deleted and appears to have reinstated in Wikimedia Commons since - see [[143]]. Thankyou

MundusEditus (talk)

• Oh dear. I locked the article to stop this rather inane edit war. Forgive me for minor tweaks to this complaint (a full-color signature was added) and for hatting content that does not really pertain right now. Drmies (talk) 15:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
• I count something like 27RR here. To MundusEditus, it's a remarkably poor idea to make personal attacks in a report on ANI as you have done. OSX, you've been around long enough to know better than to engage in this kind of edit war. "I can keep upholding Wikipedia's image standards ad infinitum, can you?" is not the appropriate way to deal with this. Acroterion (talk) 15:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
• [ec] Well. It's pretty clear that this MundusEditus has been edit warring using a variety of accounts and IP addresses--they're obviously playing around with 121.214.211.219 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 1.123.19.58 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and P8-poseidon (talk · contribs), pretending to be an outsider but reverting in MundusEditus's favor. The latter, BTW, is a single-purpose account. Besides, the complaint and various edit summaries are full of unacceptable violations of protocol, with the accusations of vandalism and trolling--see edit summaries in [144], [145], [146], [147], [148]. As far as I'm concerned the account could be blocked indefinitely, though of course we could make allowances for their being a relative newcomer in terms of edits, though I am not sure there is an excuse for statements like "He is literally acting as a tyrant and bully"--Mandarax will concur that there is no place in the world, going forward, for that kind of abuse of the word "literally". As far as OSX is concerned, it's disappointing to see such an experienced editor revert 29 times, if I counted correctly. I know blocks aren't supposed to be punitive, but Holy Mother of God this is ridiculous, and considering we're talking a pretty ugly car here maybe this edit war deserves a place in the gallery of stupid edit wars--forgot the acronym.

  Now, I probably protected the wrong version. Here's what I will do. I will unprotect, and I encourage the next editor to have a look at the two versions. I have my own preference, but hey, it's a hot item on ANI these days--you can see them compared at User talk:MundusEditus. I have warned both editors (odd that no one saw this go by on Recent Changes), and if either of these two or their IP/sock representatives revert, they should/will be blocked. Both editors deserve something: not a trout, cause there's nothing funny about it. Mundus deserves a block for the socking (and I'm going to throw around some sock blocks, even without an SPI), but whether that should be an indefinite block I will leave up to you. So please have a look, fellow admins. Drmies (talk) 15:30, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Blocks may be warranted here, though for now at least the full protection takes away any preventive effect those blocks would have. Unless I'm missing something (i.e., if Mundus is a banned editor's sock), OSX probably has some explaining to do. Experienced editors should not be breaking 3RR. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:40, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
• Well, OSX chose not to respond after their 27R violation, and did only this. I find this behavior unbecoming and disruptive, and invite admins' advice. Drmies (talk) 22:26, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for all the work you've put into this Drmies. Due to the socking, incivility and personal attacks I'd support a minimum three day block of User:MundusEditus which would have been what I'd done if this were at SPI, but I'll wait for another opinion. OSX has more than 20000 edits and should definitely know better, however given they haven't been blocked for edit warring in the past this isn't a trend so I think a stern warning should suffice. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, Callanecc, but I disagree vehemently that OSX should just get a "stern warning". This wasn't an "oops, I accidentally hit 4RR", this was blatant disregard for the fundamental norms of this community. You don't just end up at 27RR without realizing how far things have gotten, you decide that you have disdain for this community and that you don't care about the processes that we have for resolving these issues. OSX could have gone to SPI when the socks started showing up, but instead decided to flaunt the most basic behavioral standards that we have for editors. At 20k+ edits, OSX knows better than to act like this, and any admin worth their salt knows better than to brush this kind of behavior off as some sort of youthful indiscretion. VanIsaac_WS^cont 06:05, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Block both for a week, not just because of the ridiculous behaviour but because the dispute itself is as WP:LAME as they come. I can understand people getting wound up over articles on Israel-Palestine or gun control, but this? Come on! Guy (Help!) 11:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Block both for a week, per Guy. This indeed a thoroughly lame edit war, and both editors have behaved v badly. OSX has made over 20,000 edits and should know a lot better than to edit war like this. MundusEditus is a single-purpose account who rapidly started socking when their own version was challenged, and something about all of this suggests that this may not be a new editor. An SPI would be helpful to determine whether this is part of a wider pattern of socking. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:22, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I had a look and have  Confirmed that P8-poseidon (talk · contribs) is indeed the same as MundusEditus, but other than editing while logged out, there doesn't appear to be any pattern of socking. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 13:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• I was tempted to just implement the block, but I felt that this would be a bit lopsided. I would agree that one week for OSX is probably best, to prevent this continuing for at least a week, but Magnus may need two, for both warring AND socking. Often, the socking alone will earn two weeks, and I don't want to send the message that they are both equally to blame. They are both to blame, but there is a difference in the disruption that each has caused. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I would be fine with the longer block for Magnus. A counter-argument to that would be that edit-warring is a more forgiveable mistake by a by a newbie, so the two kinda even out, but I'm not sure that I would pursue that. I think that on balance the extra block for socking is appropriate. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:25, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Thank you all, and thanks User:DoRD for your very unredundant check. I'm tempted to quote Milton, to the effect that Mundus fell by themselves, but OSX fell by Mundus seduced, and that therefore the one will find grace, the other none (pardon the chiasmus). I note also that both seem unaffected by what's happening here: they have not responded but are merrily editing away, Mundus on the very same article. Therefore, one week for OSX and two for Mundus it is. Again, thank you all. And now someone needs to look at those stupid pictures and decide which one was right...Dennis, you know cars and car articles--do you have an opinion? Or do you not stoop to Mitsubishis? Drmies (talk) 16:49, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • The wife had an Eclipse SE, and a glove box full of tickets. Now she gets to drive my old work truck as punishment. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:28, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• The question we should ask here is: What do we need to do to protect the encyclopaedia? If both users have had it made clear that certain aspects of their behaviour is unacceptable and we believe they will not persist in them, there is no need for further action. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC).
  

Sean.hoyland uses terms designed to falsely demonize Israel (i.e. "occupation", "settlement", etc)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

...or at least that's what I do according to Special:Contributions/ValuableAppendage in the edit summary of this revert. Could an admin familiar with the pointless nationalist disruption that goes on everyday in the WP:ARBPIA topic area help take the matches away from this fire-starter before they start more fires and attack more editors in the topic area please ? The editor is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia based on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what you do consistently on many articles. For example, in the article on "Katrin", you use the headers "Turkish Rule", "Syrian Rule", etc, but for Israel you prefer "Israeli Occupation". This is clearly an attempt to make Israel sound like a rogue state that is occupying another country's land illegally, which it is not. Israel conquered the Golan Heights in full accordance with international during a war aimed at Israel's destruction that Syria started in full discard of international norms. And I am not a "nationalist", I am a pragmatist. You sir, are a hater. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ValuableAppendage (talk • contribs) 16:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Notified, and reverted. Drmies (talk) 16:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Zero interaction with the editor immediate to ANI? I don't think this is an issue yet. Maybe if you informed him why it is written that way he might understand your perspective. Or he might have an argument new and interesting that changes policy. In short you are missing the D (so to speak)of BRD, and I wouldn't suggest any actions until some sort of discussion actually occurs. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Well, the editor is not new here, and they made such edits before. Note also that regardless of perspective their edit summary was way over the top, and that the comments here aren't exactly neutral either. Drmies (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

School IP address

Stop. Hammertime. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Admin/mod, I would like for you to block this IP address I'm using permanently or for a very long time (i.e. at least six months) so that we're not distracted while reading articles and so that the teachers don't get us in trouble. Thanks. 24.143.246.82 (talk) 20:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC) Valencia Stewart, female, 15, 8th grade See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Altimgamr. Bahooka (talk) 20:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC) So, by all means block it then? Ian.thomson (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shugden stuff again

68.81.21.243 is inserting personal commentary into articles such as "Some recent academic texts have mislabeled him..." So 68.81.21.243 is saying academic texts are wrong. Of course the academic texts are correct, and he is the one who is wrong. 68.81.21.243 has also inserted the same exact personal commentary as a blocked sockpuppet (Tenzinwestcoast) at the 14th Dalai Lama page. Also notice this one minute apart edit. I tried reverting, but he reverted me back. Heicth (talk) 21:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried discussing the issue on the article talk page? That's usually the starting place when there is a dispute over content. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:01, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Without opinion on the sock, I reverted the IP: this is personal commentary and has no place in an article. Drmies (talk) 22:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
• Sock-blocked 2 weeks. Comparing some contribs linked them pretty cleanly. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Every time I see Shugden I read it as Molly Sugden's drunk sister. I know this makes me a bad person. Guy (Help!) 21:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Unblock request by User:Kiko4564

Kiko4564 (talk · contribs)

This user asked on IRC for his appeal to be made here. It has been over six months since his most recent block (excluding talk/email revocation modifications) and about four months since his last UTRS appeal. I am reproducing the appeal text on his behalf but do not have an opinion one way or the other as I'm not terribly familiar with this user's history. --Chris (talk) 21:40, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

“ I understand that I've already been given enough chances to think before editing and I believe that after my long ban I could constructively make full use of another final chance because since having been banned I have learnt to control my impulses to breach previous block conditions and evade scrutiny by creating or misusing alternate accounts or logging out and abusing the ability to edit anonymously under the guise of an IP address. If my ban is repealed, I intend to use my editing privileges to make various minor corrections to many articles such as removing red internal links or spelling, revamp a few less and patrol recent changes for vandalism.

I believe that unlike previously, after a long break I am able to say that I am not at all ambivalent on the issue of editing for good or bad and from now on I'll agree to allow you to closely scrutinise my edits by editing from this account only excluding logging out and I will make sure to edit in accordance with policy rather than boldly where I am in doubt and to not display a grey area edit to another editor like I did previously, not even to confess. In these cases, as well as reverting my edit I will immediately explain the situation to an administrator.

I also believe that I am under obligation to openly declare my history of malicious editing on wikimedia projects, as a result of sockpuppetery I've been blocked indefinitely on the Simple English Wikipedia and the test Wikipedia. The accounts I used included John Prescot, WPBot and Kiko4564 (alt).

On a more positive note I have made some good faith edits on commons, wikisource and wikidata since my block.

”

• Last UTRS appeal I saw was from Dec 1st, 2013 - about 6 months ago.--v/r - TP 21:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Right you are (about the date), I thought it was towards the end of the month. But 6 months is wrong too, it's actually 5.  ;) --Chris (talk) 21:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
• Well. I unblocked this editor before (in 2012), accepting their story and their promise--a promise they broke within a year. I don't really know what to say, and I don't have strong feelings either way. I'm all for giving someone a second, or third, or fourth chance, but at some point there is no more rope. Still, they are asking to be unblocked, so they want to do something here--and if that's something bad, they could conceivably just sock or IP-edit. I'm not opposed to a third, fourth, or fifth chance, but I do not feel strongly enough that we are missing out on a valuable editor to go ahead and say "yes, unblock". Drmies (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Brought here by a notice on my talk page, as I've modified Kiko's block in the past. Much like Drmies, I'm ambivalent here. Having dealt with Kiko in the past, I have found him to be extremely tendentious and prone to slipping around the edges of any promises he makes...but not malicious or particularly destructive ("silly" is a better term for his failure mode, I'd say). He does seem to have been trying hard to behave recently, but I have a hard time imagining him being able to stick with that long-term, considering how many totally-last-chance-for-real-this-time chances he's already gone through. I think if we unblocked him, there's a non-zero chance that we would get a chastened, productive editor, but there's also a better chance that we'd get someone whose impulses still aren't quite under control and who goes back to silly behavior.

  Ideally, I'd like to see a productive history somewhere else, that we could then look at and say "hey, he's managed to not slip while active there!" before we went ahead and unblocked him here. But I'm not going to wail and gnash my teeth if the consensus here is to give him the last-last chance he's asking for, either. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:06, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Also brought here by a talk page notice. I am extremely hesitant to believe that this chance will be the one that works, after so many that did not. My interactions with Kiko have shown him to be disruptive and unwilling to keep his promises—I don't see why this time would be any different. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:55, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• I agree with GorillaWarfare, from my interactions with him, Kiko is a disruptive troll whose a net negative to this project. I doubt he's beyond saving. No Secret ^account 20:48, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: I'm wary of a discussion made up only of people who've all had previous interactions with the user (myself included) giving a great final result. If anyone uninvolved is reading the thread, please consider looking into the background of this case and giving your opinion. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• You'll have to count me out as uninvolved as I interacted with Kiko via UTRS. I have to admit that I'm concerned by the fact that, after multiple online and offline declined unblock requests, they were told their final route of appeal was BASC, yet they still made their latest appeal via IRC. It just seems par for the course with this user; they appear eager but I'm not sure they have the potential to listen to others, absorb the information provided, and edit collaboratively. It's what my gut says, but if others want to extend even more rope then so be it.--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 21:19, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Standard offer, maybe? Though I find myself wondering why anybody would want to return to an account with a history like that. Guy (Help!) 21:49, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I've taken an adequate look at the history although it was not an exhaustive examination. I don't believe I've ever crossed paths with the editor before today. Based on what I have found, added to the information presented in this discussion, it is my opinion that the unblock request should be set aside without action and without prejudice, and that the user be directed to WP:BASC. Neither ANI nor AN is an optimal venue for considering a request like this, which may take days or longer to consider. In particular, there may need to be editing or other restrictions attached, if they were unblocked. Additionally, this would be consistent with what they were previously told. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:38, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I found this discussion after Nick informed me on my user talk page. I'm listed in the block log as someone who has blocked this user in the past. Anyway, I looked at his Commons contributions - Commons:Special:Contributions/Kiko4564 - and in the last 2 years, there are a dozen or so edits, several of which are to his own user space. All of this is ok, but it doesn't convince me to give the user another chance. My recollection was the user was given a second chance previously, and that is confirmed by Drmies' comment above. Overall, I'm not especially enthused about an unblock. Finally, I agree with Dennis Brown's comment that the appeal should be going through BASC instead of here. I'll notify them of this discussion, and if they wanted to take over this unblock appeal, then I certainly wouldn't object. PhilKnight (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock per User:GorillaWarfare. WP:AGF is easier to swallow when giving someone their first or second chance. Insanity is repeating the same actions and expecting a different result. The user was given editing restrictions in the past and they did not work. (I joined this thread because ANI is on my watchlist; I don't recall interacting with Kiko4564). EdJohnston (talk) 23:09, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• @Fluffernutter:: User has contributed elsewhere:
  • Some small contributions on en.wikisource
  • and Wikisource...
  • at Commons
  • and Wikidata

There seems no doubt the editor wishes to contribute positively, and Standard Offer seems to be met. I would have thought thst this is one of those all to common cases where an unblock may be seen as having a small chance of success, going by past experience, but may well simpler to unblock and re-block if problems occur, than to agonize over a decision. Of course support can be put in place, whether by mentorship or simply an invitation to Teahouse, where we are nice to people. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:20, 8 May 2014 (UTC).

• I've not looked deeply into this but I do some procedural concerns. This user has managed to get unblocked before by appealing to ANI (as opposed to UTRS or WP:BASC, which is the usual final venue for unblock appeals). This suggests that they may have chosen to appeal this way because they doubt their chances if they proceeded through the normal channels, which are more low key and staffed by persons who specialize in hearing block appeals. Despite ANI's reputation as a snake pit/lynch mob/whatever a user is in fact more likely to find a sympathetic audience here than those other venues for the simple reason that by the time you have made it to the final appeal, you better be able to make a compelling case that either the initial block/ban was manifestly incorrect ( obviously not the case here) or provide clear and specific ways that your editing would be different if you were allowed back in. This request kind of does that, but it borders on incoherence in several places, as if the appellant didn't really know how to explain themselves.

I'm not arguing that the request be forced off ANI and onto one of the off-wiki options since the community is already discussing it, but that is probably where it should have been and if it ends up being denied they should be informed that only UTRS or BASC will hear further appeals. The appeals process is structured this way for a reason, so that persons who have had numerous "last chances" not be permitted to further waste community resources with endless appeals.

All that being said, I am myself a believer in the standard offer as well as WP:ROPE. Sometimes the only way to find out if someone has truly changed is to give them a chance to prove it. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:40, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• • From a UTRS perspective, I think ANI is a more suitable place for unblocks than UTRS. UTRS is sort of a 1-admin ballgame. ANI allows the community to have input. UTRS is more for the 'community is tired of dealing with it, pass the buck' folks. And if it's an issue where 1 admin couldn't unblock - we pass it up to BASC.--v/r - TP 03:35, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Rollback request for edits by 179.177.15.85

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I am requesting a roleback of all edits by 179.177.15.85 (talk). 179.177.15.85 has made mass changes to the importance scale of articles within WP:A&M without engagin in any discussion about such change first. Almost all of these changes do not even comply with the WikiProject's assessment scale. The project has had problems with Brazilian IPs vandalizing project assessments in the past and this appears to be more of the same. 24.149.117.220 (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and done the mass-rollback as there was nothing that I saw being productive here, especially moving importance's from low to top, and moving things around on the upper echelons of importance. I would suggest engaging with them in the future before coming here, but I don't see anything here being productive so I decided to revert it. If anyone wants to revert me, go ahead, as I will not contest that action. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:38, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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Single purpose sock engaging in repeated edit warring

A single purpose sock, Gija_Wiman_FourCommanderiesofHan[149], is repeatedly engaging in edit-warring, pushing for a PoV that is generally against academic consensus. Cydevil38 (talk) 23:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean a single purpose account or a sockpuppet? BMK (talk) 15:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

This may be related to some recent sockpuppet reports, see here, here, and here. These socks (both alleged and proven socks) were involved in similar topic areas. So it's possible that this is related. But I'm not sure, I don't see any actual article overlap. Cydevil38, did you have an actual sockmaster in mind for this accusation? Your claims of edit-warring are valid, the editor has had that problem since they first started. -- Atama頭 17:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Well, I note that both are edit warring, neither leaving useful edit summaries or taking things up on the talk page. It may well be that the SPA is wrong, but that's not really the point--Cydevil is not proving they're right, since I see nothing but the claim that the other's edits are against academic consensus, no evidence--let alone editorial consensus. Drmies (talk) 17:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

There is consensus that Gija Joseon is mostly rejected by historians and archaeologists if you carefully read the talk page[150]. Gija_Wiman_FourCommanderiesofHan ignores the debate and goes on to push for his PoV, which is quite obvious from his username. Cydevil38 (talk) 01:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Libelous BLP violation in article

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The article in question is RT (TV network), the BLP violation is in the last paragraph in the lead.

Personal disclosure: I am the IP editor that filed the ANI case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators_noticeboard/Incidents#Abuse_of_admin_privileges on the same article (and has nothing to with any Admin privileges abuse here) .

I have brought the current proposed violation to the attention of admin Atama. The admin concluded that he/she believes it does not fulfill a violation, and it should be resolved in the article content dispute. *(updated) Though later, graciously remarked, that actually it was appropriate to bring it to ANI, because other administrators may have a different opinion. (same ip editor)79.182.151.40 (talk) 05:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

for the sake of convenience, i will re-post the relevant information for this ANI, that i presented to the admin's talk page. I have removed the exchange between me and Atama, but the whole unedited dialogue can be viewed in the Admin talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Atama#The_ANI_admin_dispute_on_RT_.28TV_network.29).

I should note, this case is by no means a filing against the Admin, who has taken the time to view the material and has given his/her opinion. But I ask other admins to view their opinion on the matter. Because I strongly believe this is a WP:QUOTE, WP:LIBEL and WP:BLP violations that need urgent remedy.

Relevant passages from the talk page discussion:

I'll demonstrate why one version pushed by negative POVers is in fact, inherently problematic and in violation of WP:QUOTE "The quotation should be representative of the whole source document; editors should be very careful to avoid misrepresentation of the argument in the source." Here is the current paragraph in the articles lead:

• The network asserts that RT offers a Russian perspective on global events.[2] However critics have accused it of being a propaganda outlet for the Russian government.[11][12][13] In 2013 President Putin admitted “Certainly the channel is funded by the government, so it cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position” but stressed “we never intended this channel, RT, as any kind of apologetics for the Russian political line”.[14][15]

Here is the full paragraph, from which the misleading quote was taken from (source) (M. SIMONYAN is the editor in chief of RT):

MARGARITA SIMONYAN: My first question is a bit immodest – about our channel. What are your impressions of it?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: I have good impressions.

When we designed this project back in 2005 we intended introducing another strong player on the international scene, a player that wouldn’t just provide an unbiased coverage of the events in Russia but also try, let me stress, I mean – try to break the Anglo-Saxon monopoly on the global information streams. And it seems to me that you’re succeeding in this job.

I'd like to emphasise something of key importance. We never expected this to be a news agency or a channel that would defend the position of the Russian political line. We wanted to bring an absolutely independent news channel to the news arena.

Certainly the channel is funded by the government, so it cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position on the events in our country and in the rest of the world one way or another. But I’d like to underline again that we never intended this channel, RT, as any kind of apologetics for the Russian political line, whether domestic or foreign.

The full quote is properly presented in the body of the article (last paragraph) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#Recent As you can see they have misused Russian President Vladimir Putin, quote. by manipulated editing they have turned his meaning to "Im Admitting (no less) - RT is a propaganda outlet for the russian government". No less.

According to WP:LIBEL "It is Wikipedia policy to delete libelous material when it has been identified" I believe the paragraph is clearly violating WP:BLP "BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia, including talk pages, edit summaries, user pages, images, categories, persondata, article titles and drafts." . (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Where_BLP_does_and_does_not_apply). If manipulating a quote of an individual, to make it just the opposite of its authentic meaning (actually to turn it against him), by the head of government of russia (Putin) to say that the government is in fact using RT as a propaganda outlet is not libelous and a BLP violation. Then I'm not sure what qualifies. (same ip editor) 79.182.128.235 (talk) 23:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I see no problems whatsoever here, except for slight verbiage. WP:SAY notes that words such as "admit" are often problematic because of their implications, and you're correct in saying that it's a problem here. If we change that to "stated" or simply "said", it will be neutral. This use of parts of the quote isn't in any way changing the meaning of his words, except via the implications of "admit". Nyttend (talk) 00:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

That is precisely what I was going to say. Doc talk 01:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The lead paragraph is intentionally set in a way to make it look like that there is a definitive case of "RT is the russian government propaganda outlet", by cleverly editing the quote, it has changed the meaning and spirit of the authentic paragraph from something like "naturally there will be in some ways a reflection of the Russian government’s official position in RT" to "RT cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position" implying Always, Continuously and as if its RT core directive. (same ip editor)79.182.128.235 (talk) 01:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I would like to note that greater care and emphasis of neutral point of view is advised in dealing with material in controversial articles as per WP:GCONT. (same ip editor)109.64.31.30 (talk) 01:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

That isn't libel and it isn't a BLP violation. bobrayner (talk) 10:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

There has been active discussion in the past about whether to apply any parts of WP:LP to corporate persons (RT would fall into that category) and at this point, it does not reach that category. Clearly Wikipedia should be cognizant of "defamation" as such, but so far all we rely in is WP:NPOV. Collect (talk) 12:16, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The IP editor needs to be reminded that WP:ANI is not the first venue (and, actually, not the venue at all) to resolve content disputes. They really need to go to the talk page and achieve consensus there. If they fail (and they fail consistently, and they have chosen to edit war instead), may be smth is wrong with them, not with the article.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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Truthsayer62 / Tenzinwestcoast sockpuppet

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Prasangika37, like both Tenzinwestcoast and Truthsayer62, says he follows "Kadampa Buddhism" on his user page. Why always that specific phrase? Why always declare it on the user page? Again Prasangika37 talks about "balance". Keep in mind, this statement of "balance" is the first statement he ever makes on Wikipedia and "balance" was a constant refrain of blocked user Truthsayer62. His talk about methods which foster inner peace reminds me quite a bit of Tenzinwestcoast's "spiritual energy." I have no particular problem with his edits as of yet, other than inserting a self-published book at the Vajrayana page, which other users such as Chris Fynn have said is junk. But since he is an obvious sock, I thought I should report it.Heicth (talk) 03:49, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

And then he dives right in where Truthsayer62/Tenzinwestcoast were heavily involved. Calling it. Blocked. (As a note, in the future, WP:SPI is the sock reporting place.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:26, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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Til Eulenspiegel is comparing me to a Nazi

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On Talk:Genesis creation narrative I pointed out that the article should state in the lede that Genesis contains more than one creation myth. I was immediately, and repeatedly, accused by Til Eulenspiegel (talk · contribs) of being "intolerant" and "bigoted". I know the article has had problems in the recent past, with which I was uninvolved, and he may just be projecting (I don't know what the others said, and it's not fair to blame me for that).

But he has now Godwinned the debate by explicitly comparing me to Hitler.[151] Note that all I said was that he needs a reliable source that actually rejects the two-creation-myths theory, because I already demonstrated that a mainstream university teaches it as a fact. I frankly fail to see how this reminds him of Naziism.

(Full disclosure: I'm editing from a phone as I now prefer to only edit Wikipedia while travelling. I have an account that I haven't logged into for months. Don't ask don't tell and all that.)

182.249.241.27 (talk) 10:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

This is indeed totally unacceptable. Til Eulenspiegel's behaviour in the preceding discussion also displays a distinctive attitude of tendentious editing. I've blocked him. The block is lengthy (two months) owing to his heavy previous block history – a total of seven prior blocks, of which two (of one and two weeks length respectively) were very recent. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:16, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I've removed his talk page access after he continued the personal attacks there, even after a further warning. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 11:00, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

You'll note he appears to be continuing to edit his talk page logged out. [152] --Nicknack009 (talk) 11:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Talk page is now semi'd. BMK (talk) 12:26, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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vandalism olny account Extravagazaboutou vandalised my talkpage

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can someone block this user indefinetly because the olny edit he made is vandalising my talkpage https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AEgyptian445&diff=607398071&oldid=605069417 which makes the user a vandalism olny account Egyptian445 (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Coming to ANI based upon a single edit is premature. I've left a warning, let me know if there is a repeat, if I don't see it first)S Philbrick(Talk) 13:07, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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Ymblanter predicts my block

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I got some personal remarks from Ymblanter He saiys that my edits are "destructive" and predicts my ban. When i ask him to give some links, says that I "know perfectly what he is talking about." and "he would rather wait until someone takes meto ANI", and predicts one more time. I think it all against Wikipedia:Civility Cathry (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Whoever wants to react, I suggest to look at the talk page of the user, and then inspect their contributions.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

@Cathry - I think if you are concerned about civility, the first place to start is with your own editing, since I see nothing uncivil in Ymblanter's remarks. BMK (talk) 15:57, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

So it would be easy for you to show mine uncivil edits. Cathry (talk) 16:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

By the time I got to Cathry's claims of "Wikipedia Censorship", it was pretty clear that Ymblanter was stating the obvious, and it wasn't a threat or even an amazing feat of prognostication. When everyone disagrees with you, you need to at least consider the possibility that you are wrong. If you want to work in a collaborative environment, you need to learn to collaborate. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:15, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

"When everyone disagrees with you" please give me list of everyone who disagrees with me, or it will be one more example of rude personal remarks. Cathry (talk) 16:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

You see, that is the problem right there. What I saw on the talk page was that in basically every edit you made, it was counter to someone else with no one else agreeing. And you come here, and accuse me of a rude personal remark (when the statement I gave was a generalization) and a demanding a list. I'm not sure if it is just getting lost in the translation, or if you are just that combative by nature. You are at ANI, and when you make a complaint against someone, the behavior of all parties will be examined. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:30, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

"in basically every edit you made" it is not true, there are remarks on my talk page from 2 editors who are working articles on Ukrainian theme pushing there pro-government POV. And it is not only my opinion Cathry (talk) 16:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Just a general observation but the nature of collaborative editing is that discussion can get heated and discourteous words are spoken. You can make seemingly uncontroversial edits and still have negative comments made about you or be called an unflattering name. It's not civil, true, but if every instance of a harsh word being spoken was posted to AN/I, the noticeboard would quickly become unmanageable and most complaints would go unaddressed because there is not that kind of level of admin support here, plus I doubt many admins would volunteer to be part of the civility police.

So, instead, only the most blatantly hostile and aggressive discussions are brought up here at AN/I and, frankly, this exchange doesn't rank as very hostile. In fact, you could read Ymblanter's comments as a warning to you to be more careful. My advice is not to ring alarms at mild disagreements, develop a thicker skin and try to work out disagreements with the editors you have a conflict with on user and article talk pages or dispute resolution. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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Several new accounts (a class?) uploading copyrighted images, creating unusual sandbox pages

While patrolling new uploads, I came across several accounts that are uploading a large number of copyrighted images, claiming that are cc-by-sa 3.0 when in fact they are not. They are then using these images on sandboxes creating 'articles' that are not exactly encyclopedic content. The accounts, sandboxes, and example images:

• Basetsana Magapa (talk · contribs) - sandbox - example image
• Thandymoroks (talk · contribs) - sandbox - example image
• Mojadi (talk · contribs) - sandbox - example image

They are creating copyright violations faster than I can tag them. I've handed up notices, warnings, etc. and it is not slowing down. Some help please? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:16, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

You need to notify them that you put them on ANI; I have. Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 16:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• I know, and thanks. I have several tabs open and hadn't saved those yet. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:20, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Starting an SPI: look at their sandboxes for evidence. Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 16:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's more likely that this is a class. Lots of overlap in editing times, suggesting these are different editors. Given the nature of the edits and structure of the sandboxes being similar, I suspect these were created under instruction. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Looking at this, I think you're correct; I'll ask for checkuser to flush out any others. Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 16:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

My guess is that they are journalism students at Limkokwing University of Creative Technology in Botswana. They appear to be using Wikipedia simply to host their journalism assignments, possibly as directed by their instructor. I very much doubt they are planning to make these into Wikipedia articles. Voceditenore (talk) 17:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Should we let them know Wikipedia is not a place for that? And why do you think there in particular? Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 17:13, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Can we get in touch with their instructor? bobrayner (talk) 17:14, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but googling the names given as "by-lines" in two of the sandboxes suggests a link with that university. Someone ought to ask them outright if their editing is part of an assignment and ask how to contact their instructor. (I can't as I'm about to go off line). However, the students (if that's what they are) have been remarkably unresponsive so far and simply keep uploading copyvio files. User:Basetsana Magapa/sandbox has already been deleted once and promptly recreated. Voceditenore (talk) 17:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Similarly, File:Carter morupisi.jpeg was tagged for deletion under db-f9, was deleted, and shortly thereafter uploaded again (and it's been retagged again) [153]. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• I've left notices on their talk pages to communicate with us as soon as possible either here in this thread or on their talk pages. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Of note, all three accounts have stopped editing for nearly two hours now. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:48, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• The question is; are we going to let Satan take over or it’s the last kicks of a dying horse? I think we should all ponder that question more often, especially in this here cesspool of sin and sodomy we call ANI. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • With respect, that's a little too cryptic for my simple mind to untangle. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Hint: Last line of linked sandbox page.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that "article" about Satan taking over and seducing Christians was disturbing and warrants deletion all on its own. The idea that these might be journalism students is even more worrying but that's outside of Wikipedia's control. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:08, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Origamite started an SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mojadi. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:50, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Accurateinfo973 - Yank Barry article, ongoing COI problem.

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This is an ongoing problem originally reported at WP:COIN[154]. Over at Yank Barry, there's a continuing effort at resume inflation. The subject of the article employs a publicity agency to enhance his reputation[155], including TV interviews, press releases, and a self-produced documentary movie about himself[156]. That effort seems to extend to Wikipedia. Editor Gogvc (talk · contribs) was blocked for edit warring/spamming. (They edited only Yank Barry related articles.) There have been problems with sockpuppets in the past. Theprincessmom1 (talk · contribs) (another Yank Barry only SPA) was blocked as a sock of Gogvc. There's a sockpuppet investigation open regarding Fmrjournalist (talk · contribs) (all but one edit involves Yank Barry). There were also some IP edits after blocks which may have been sockpuppets.

Accurateinfo973 (talk · contribs) is being discussed now on the article talk page. See Talk:Yank_Barry#Accurateinfo973 is making edits against consensus. Again. This editor has about 75 edits, all of which are Yank Barry related. Relevant diffs [157] (deleted details of extortion conviction) [158] (deleted details of extortion conviction) [159] (added weakly sourced info about dubious awards, including one from his own organization). There's more; see the talk page. The current situation is slow-motion edit warring between Accurateinfo973 and a number of other experienced editors.

As a WP:BLP matter, the article is rather favorable to its subject. On the talk page, two major scams with which the subject was associated are discussed. In one case, he wasn't one of the parties indicted and convicted, and the other was settled out of court. So those aren't in the article.

I'd suggest a topic ban on Accurateinfo973, and a month of semi-protection so we don't have another rash of sockpuppets for a while. Thanks. --John Nagle (talk) 18:30, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Ref previous AN/I issue: [160]. Previous 48 hour block: [161] John Nagle (talk) 18:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• I have enacted a topic ban, which in this case boils down to an indefinite block for disruption, editing against consensus, lack of good-faith editing, BLP violations, and pretty obviously plugging the subject of the one article they are interested in. Are they added to any SPI? CU would be helpful. I have not protected the article--to my eye, the "criminal" stuff is being overplayed a bit while, on the other hand, there is a resume-style and unverified list of albums he supposedly had a hand in, so there is plenty of opportunity for good editing. Drmies (talk) 19:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you Drmies. There was an SPI filed, and CU was run. Many of the promotional accounts at that article stopped editing long ago, so most are stale. But CU did confirm that there was sockpuppetry (between indef-blocked Gogvc whose username matched the Twitter handle of Yank Barry's charity and Theprincessmom1), but it cleared Accurateinfo97 as being a sockpuppet for any currently-active editors. Personally, I'm certain that Accurateinfo97 and Megavox are the same editor (Megavox began drafting the Yank Barry article on their user page, then stopped editing permanently, then Accurateinfo97 finished the draft and moved it into article space). But that isn't a violation, since Megavox was an abandoned account long before Accurateinfo97 started. A new SPI was recently opened for another account that was created and popped up on the article. -- Atama頭 19:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks. Looks like we're done for now. John Nagle (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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Delantisco

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Can we have eyes on Delantisco (talk · contribs)? The editor has all the signs of the blocked vandal Finealt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and is redirecting pages left and right without discussion. Report was made on AIV and the SPI, but because of the backlog this seems the faster channel as already proven earlier this week. Nate • (chatter) 18:41, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Looks like Tide Rolls already blocked them. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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S. E. Cupp "public persona"

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User Eclecticerudite has made several edits to the S. E. Cupp article, changing the bio infobox "religion" item to "Christian", based on his personal theory that Cupp is presenting an atheist public persona but is in reality a Christian (a la Steven Colbert, w.r.t. his political orientation). This is not substantiated by any public report, quote, or citable source, and is in fact contradicted by her own written words in the introduction to her book Losing Our Religion (cited in the article), wherein she states that she is an atheist. I have politely mentioned all of this on the article talk page, but Eclecticerudite keeps making these edits, starting with this edit and more recently with this edit. He has claimed that I have a relationship with Cupp and therefore have a personal stake in promoting her "public persona"; I do not. Could someone please take a look at this? I don't want this to escalate into a pointless edit war. — Loadmaster (talk) 20:30, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• A quick google check will show that I am not the only person that strongly questions Cupp's true beliefs vs. her public persona. You can also check the history of the Page and Talk to find that this has been a point of contention before. She grew up Catholic, studied religion, and married a guy who would only marry a Christian. Her persona was created so she would get more media time. She holds views that few to none other atheists hold: she "aspires" to be religious, she would only elect a Christian for presidency, she believes morals have to come from religion, etc. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. While I under her motivation for creating this persona, this doesn't mean wikipedia has to play along. - Eclecticerudite (talk) 20:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Belongs at WP:BLPN but it's an easy answer. Unless you have reliable sources she self-identifies as Christian, changing the infobox is a non-starter. Editors' "questions" are irrelevant. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

This is a WP:BLP. You must stop adding this or you will be blocked. Please read WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR as well as WP:BLP. You've been reverted again, don't replace it. Dougweller (talk) 20:57, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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User TheFallenCrowd at Arthur Kemp

At Arthur Kemp (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) TheFallenCrowd (talk · contribs) is continually reinserting material that is not backed by the source (and calling its removal vandalism). I asked TheFallenCrowd to take this to RSN and they refused, reinserting the material (which had also been removed by Emeraude (talk · contribs) . I then took it to RSN and asked, told TheFallenCrowd that I had and asked him not to keep reinserting it without consensus - and TheFallenCrowd reinserted it. My comment and that of Emeraude is at WP:RSN#Is this source that doesn't mention the subject of the article ok?. Dougweller (talk) 16:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The material in question is backed by the source, and in fact has been part of the article for over two years already. What Dougweller (talk · contribs) really objects to is that the material shows up the SPLC to have lied in its report which the article quotes directly before the material to which the objection has now been made. To be specific: the material to which Dougweller (talk · contribs) objects is as follows:

In fact, Clive Derby-Lewis gave Kemp's name to the police, not the other way round as the SPLC alleged, as revealed in a report in The Independent newspaper: “The police said yesterday they had achieved their 'breakthrough' in the Hani investigation on the basis of information provided by Mr Derby-Lewis.” ("Suspects held in Hani inquiry: Police confirm plot after five more arrests”, The Independent, April 22, 1993.

The Independent article specifically deals with Kemp's arrest, and then goes on to quote the police as saying that the "breakthrough" (ie the arrest) had been made on the basis of information provided by Clive Derby-Lewis.

From this it is clear to any objective observer that Dougweller (talk · contribs)'s objections are clearly politically motivated because they embarrass the SPLC.

Furthermore, as a review of the article editing history shows, this material has been part of the article for over TWO years--and Dougweller (talk · contribs) has never objected to it before, despite doing constant edits to the article and monitoring it as part of his self-declared "anti-fascist" interests.

There is therefore no basis for this constant vandalism of the article to suit Dougweller (talk · contribs)'s personal bias, and I will restore the deleted material forthwith. I am more than prepared to lay these facts out again, if need be, before any Wiki forum. TheFallenCrowd (talk) 20:31, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Despite being singled out here, 3 other editors have disagreed with TheFallenCrowd, who seems to have a problem with WP:OWN. See WP:RSN#Is this source that doesn't mention the subject of the article ok? where User:Blueboar and User:Emeraude make it clear that this is not backed up by the source, and Emeraude, myself and User:Woodroar have reverted him. He didn't take part in the RSN discussion. Dougweller (talk) 20:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I should have added that he calls removing misrepresentation of a source (in a BLP) vandalism. Dougweller (talk) 20:49, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• OP warned regarding edit warring. Tiderolls 21:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

TheFallenCrowd, if you are "more than prepared to lay these facts out again, if need be, before any Wiki forum", then you should get over to the WP:RSN discussion right now, if you haven't visited it already. That is the Wiki forum where it is currently being discussed. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:04, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

ArmijaDonetsk

ArmijaDonetsk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

More than likely, I'm an idiot for bringing this back to WP:AN/I after what happened last time, but personal attacks and disruptive editing are becoming a daily problem with ArmijaDonetsk. I'm not very good at this ANI business, so bear with me.

To start with, this user has no good faith in anyone, or in the project, and has actively stated as such.[162] He has repeatedly accused me of being a POV pusher, and has continually attacked me on my talk page and at the talk page of the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine article, to which I am a significant contributor. Today, he has started warring with 'warning templates' on my talk page.[163][164] He has accused me of being 'right-wing', among other things, and I can assure that this has no bearing on reality.[165] He has disruptively moved the page 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine multiple times. I'm not opposed to a move (through the normal channels), and have openly admitted that the present title is a compromise, but there is no consensus for a bold move at this moment, nor for the repeated disruption in the article.[166][167] He has not contributed any significant content, but continually disrupts its creation. He has shown battleground behaviour all across his contribution history.[168][169] He even goes so far as to create POV forks to circumvent previous talk page discussions.[170]

I'm open to review. Look at my edits, and then look what he has accused me of. I've inserted nothing unsourced, I've made every effort to discuss change. I've tried my hardest to be objective. His accusations are baseless, and he continues to assault this project with his battleground behaviour. I'm asking for assistance, once again. Thanks very much, RGloucester — ☎ 21:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I am afraid this (the last edit of the user) is not really ok given the history of the contributions of the user. On the other note, I am seriously concerned by an appearance of a big number of new accounts in February-April who are only interested in the articles on Ukraine and are aggressively pushing pro-Russian agenda. The pro-Ukrainian side are not angels either, but at least they are established users with a long editing history, whereas on the pro-Russian side I suspect paid editors. It is known that the Russian government hires internet users to push pro-government agenda, but until February I never came across such users here.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:22, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

See here. I levied an indefinite block, but Future Perfect at Sunrise has given an indefinite topic ban, so I've unblocked. Probably not much different, since this kind of person likely will either give up and stop editing, or will continue and soon be re-indef-blocked. Still, if this person wants to do anything else, we might as well permit it, at least for the moment. Nyttend (talk) 21:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

While we are on the subject could someone review the editor's edits here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flag of the Donetsk People's Republic I feel the whole "Polish speaker running wild to delete anything that is anti-Maidan, anti-NATO? POV-pusher" could be taken as offensive. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I included that in my report under 'battleground behaviour'. RGloucester — ☎ 00:02, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I still think it should be deleted as insulting and im not even polish, in order to have found that out the user would have had to go out of their way to find that info and that just bothers me. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:22, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Obvious sock puppetry

Can we get an admin to take care of an obvious sock puppy of User talk:Merlin the 2nd now called User talk:Merlin the 3rd that is doing the exact same edits as before. -- Moxy (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you SURE it is a sock puppet though? =o - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't buy it. Arkon (talk) 02:22, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm yeah looked more like a Crane (bird) to me. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Duck blocked. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oh, you just beat me to it. I was going to give evidence too--this "Independent city" stuff. Drmies (talk) 02:31, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Constant editing of Laurie Mylroie page by one, possibly two, editors that are intent on deleting criticism and adding positive spin to bio page

• Jason17760 (talk) and possible sock-puppet Blubird26 (talk) - two editors, possible the same person, who have only edited one page - Laurie Mylroie (see Jason17760 and Blubird26). Almost all of the edits, and ALL of the more recent ones, have been attempts to delete any information critical of Laurie Mylroie, and/or insert passages that attempt to paint Laurie Mylroie in a more favorable light. Article was reasonably balanced before all this started, but these two accounts appear to have an agenda. I attempted to contact Jason17760 (talk) multiple times but did not receive a response until yesterday, which was simply an attack accusing me of trying to "discredit" Laurie Mylroie. I happened upon the page by chance and have no political leaning either way over this page, but I did notice the attempted "white-washing" and tried to correct it. The two users are persistent, however, and continue their campaign to delete any negative info, including the references that back up that info. I need help at this point. Thank you. Rockypedia (talk) 02:27, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Rocky, I really think you need to try and write more catchy titles. How's this:

  ALT 1: "Non-neutral edits on Laurie Mylroie, a BLP, by likely socks".

  Just a thought. Drmies (talk) 02:35, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think the first thing to do is to start an WP:SPI-unless someone like User:DoRD happens to walk by here. It may well be helpful to get CU evidence. There are behavioral indications that these two are the same--their edit summaries have important similarities, which I'm not going to spell out right now, and there's something else. I'm about to look at the content of those edits. Drmies (talk) 02:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
  • OK. This is Jason's first set of edits. There is no way anyone could consider those edits neutral. They clearly violate our BLP policies and the charges of whitewashing are validated. Blubird's edits are much smaller but work the same way. This one is a good example. (BTW, one could quibble over that content, but Blubird and Jason don't quibble--they simply chop and add.) Now, socks? I don't know. There is a strong suspicion. But neither of these should be editing this article: their violations of the BLP are manifold and their interest in the subject completely clouds their vision. Drmies (talk) 02:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC)