Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Paco Arespacochaga and Aleck Bovick AFDs

I made a number of contentious AFDs (at least by the Wikipedia Tambayan Project (see [1])), the most important of which now are those of Paco Arespacochaga (see [2], [3], [4]) and Aleck Bovick (see [5], [6], [7]).

I was made aware of this largely by the efforts of User:Obsidian Soul and User:Jondel, at least when those efforts were positive and informative. As a result, I either withdrew the nomination, or if too late changed my own vote to keep in these two cases, a public acknowledgement of my failed vetting process. Is there anything wrong with either of those things? I even tried to improve the articles (both a tad threadbare) by adding text from sources both Tambayan editors assured me were reliable Philippines media sources. I don't know what has happened but I have since been subjected to verbal abuse and threats from @Obsidian Soul, accusing me of adding "potentially libelous" info and being POINTY by having changed my own votes (with detailed explanations for the record) because @Obsidian Soul claims I am afraid of "losing" the AFDs. I can say that, unfortunately, I have lost AFDs in the past by WP:SNOW and I made no attempt to either withdraw the ill-fated noms or change my votes.

In other words, I realized that in certain of the AFDs recently nominated I was wrong -- yes I admit it. And I acted on my conscience, and did what I believed was appropriate. Now, I am threatened (with opening an AN/I) and accused by this seriously passive aggressive editor (@Obsidian Soul) for doing what he relentlessly told me I should have done from the beginning. I cannot control my "western bias" but I can try to make things right as best I can. I genuinely have no idea what @Obsidian Soul is going on about this time, but I am sick and tired of it. Quis separabit? 19:55, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt: verbal abuse? Are you claiming Off-wiki harassment? RichardOSmith (talk) 20:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

NO, no. Sorry, not "verbal". I am old (way pre-millenial) and did not use the right term. I meant what I consider verbally abusive wording in many but certainly the most recent (today) postings by @Obsidian Soul. Quis separabit? 20:07, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

verbal ≠ oral. common misconception. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Obsidian Soul notified. Your pings won't work that way. To ping an editor you need use this format {{ping|Obsidian Soul}}. Also, pings are not considered appropriate notification for AN/ANI. Blackmane (talk) 23:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Blackmane: I did notify @Obsidian Soul (see [8]). Sorry if I didn't do it right. Quis separabit? 23:24, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

It's unclear to me what kind of remedy you are seeking. Can you post diffs of these "threats"? Because telling an editor you are going to bring a dispute to a noticeboard is not a sanctionable offense.Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:26, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I know that. What I want him to do is stop making inflammatory comments, accusing me of making "potentially libelous comments" that come straight from a reflink he recommended to me as a reliable Filipino media source and when I haven't done anything wrong and have no idea what he's talking about, and harassing me with his passive-aggressive nonsense. Not all communications have to be done at an AFD discussion. I have a talk page. And those diffs are at the top of this AN/I but there may be others I can scare up. Quis separabit? 23:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn't notice that it was mixed in with the section above my notification. Blackmane (talk) 02:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Call a spade a spade. Your "improvements" to the articles on Bovick and Arespacochaga are potentially libelous and violate WP:BLP despite your oh-so-innocent protestations otherwise. And that is behavior actually worthy of an AN/I. Your edit summary of "very important biodata added" is a dig at how you think the WP:RS provided in the AfD discussions were not satisfactory because they're subjectively "gossip" to you. Whatever bullshit you think you can get away with in the talk pages (including your persistence in using inappropriate {{od}} templates on everything because I criticized your indenting practices in your last AN/I against me, and admins don't seem to mind), don't carry it over to the articles. Period. It's actually funny that you're the one claiming harassment. You've accused me of nefarious things how many times now? Three? In AN/I no less. If that isn't classic WP:POINTY behavior, I don't know what is. All because I had the nerve to tell you to do a WP:BEFORE in your nominations. Something several other editors have also told you to do. If admins can't see through that, it's not my problem. Believe me, I don't want to deal with you ever again either. But again, keep your vindictiveness in the talk pages. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 23:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Notice he refuses to address his accusation that I posted "potentially inflammatory text" from the url he referred me to. The indenting nonsense is his own paranoia. He told me on one occasion to fix my indenting. I did my best twice on a long confusing thread. He didn't like it and re-indented it himself. It's absurd.

"All because I had the nerve to tell you to do a WP:BEFORE in your nominations. Something several other editors have also told you to do. If admins can't see through that, it's not my problem" -- this is untrue. He repeats the same thing over and over. I have acknowledged making some AFD nominations that I shouldn't have -- whether because of sloppy research or what he calls "Western bias". Does he want me to wear a hairshirt or a sackcloth with ashes? Do penance? Should I debase (that's a euphemism) myself? I acknowledged his points (to the extent I agree with them, depending on the individual AFD nom) already and thanked him when his advice was constructive. I withdrew some noms and/or changed my votes. He refuses to acknowledge or accept or update anything or turn down the passive-aggressive relentlessness and yet I am vindictive. Quis separabit? 00:08, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

For starters, how about dropping the wide-eyed pretense of being the innocent victim? You know perfectly well what you're doing. Just like this can not ever be construed as "fixing" anything. And no. I'm definitely not avoiding it. I am accusing you of adding potentially libelous information to articles to illustrate a point. Why don't you explain how a paragraph on implied nepotism is a good thing? Or how someone's mother being a dancer ("in Cubao") with 18 children from three different men, who died "from blood loss [due to giving birth repeatedly]" is "very important biodata"?

Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. -WP:BLP

-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 00:42, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

For the hundredth time, the indenting problem you are obsessing about was not an attempt by me to gaslight you. I tried to fix it twice and gave up, and you fixed it. No one else complained. If I am misusing {{od}} then let someone (not you) tell me how so, because you are no longer credible on that point. Quis separabit? 00:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

You must have missed the point of my last post. So here. I'll repeat it: why don't you explain how a paragraph on implied nepotism is a good thing? Or how someone's mother being a dancer ("in Cubao") with 18 children from three different men, who died "from blood loss [due to giving birth repeatedly]" is "very important biodata"?-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 01:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I am very glad it was your mess up because when I was posting my lengthy response I hit an edit conflict so now things are not out of sequence, I hope. The quote regarding Arespacochaga:

"His father was a former vice president of a production company, Paco had easy access to famous persons in the local showbiz industry – such as the late Fernando Poe Jr, actor and currently Manila Mayor Joseph Estrada, and star-builder German Moreno, thus opening valuable doors for him to begin his career." [9]

came from the url @Obsidian Soul recommended to me from the website of the GMA Network and I don't or didn't think it indicates nepotism, any more than the fact that Alfred Hitchcock's daughter Patricia had roles in some of her father's films or that Liza Minnelli appeared on her mother's television show, or that Barry Van Dyke had a long-running gig on his father's Diagnosis: Murder. If this is something potentially libelous I would guess Paco Arespacochaga sued GMA when it was published in print. Oh, no, wait, he didn't. I guess Arespacochaga had no problem with but somehow @Obsidian Soul does. And I may as well add that @Obsidian Soul's edit summary deleting the info was "remove per WP:BLP. I think it's time to open an AN/I". So he is twistedly seeking reasons to harass me, using innocent quoted text.

As far as Bovick goes, it's the same thing. I wanted to spruce up a threadbare article. Yes I found the fact that her late mother bore 18 children (by 3 husbands) interesting, in fact fascinating, and her death from leukemia thus a multifold tragedy. The statement "from blood loss [due to giving birth repeatedly]" came from her own daughter, Bovick! What did you think, I made it up? I certainly wasn't posing it as a medical opinion, only her daughter's comments. I cast no aspersions on anyone (see [10]). Overreaction somehow by somebody?? Doesn't anyone see anything wrong here? If I made any mistakes in using reliably sourced biographical background material, I apologize. I don't think I did but .... Quis separabit? 01:17, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes. My link. And you wished to illustrate how those links might not be reliable, right? Gee whiz, that oughta show em! I gave it to demonstrate WP:GNG, not so you can pick the most sensationalist part and insert it into the articles. Have someone else explain WP:BLP to you. Because I'm not doing it. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 01:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary,[[WP:POINTY| I was confident the links were/are reliable as I trusted you. You've accused me of POINTY about a hundred thousand times since we crossed paths. Your accuracy at tossing that dart hasn't improved despite the extensive practice you've had. Quis separabit? 02:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

They are reliable. I do not wish to interact with you further. If someone else disagrees with my reversion of your edits, or actually believes that you were acting in good faith, I wish to hear their opinion. Otherwise, this thread is as pointless as your earlier two accusations of stalking. I have much better things to do. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 02:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, all of the arguments about content should stay on the article's talk page. As for the rest - apart from someone telling you two to leave each other the hell alone, what administrative remedy are you seeking here? What do you want us to do? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

He should desist from communicating with me, making edit summary threats, launching endless POINTY accusations, especially at AFD discussions, and bring whatever issues he may have in future to an objective third party or admin. Quis separabit? 14:39, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Since Obsidian Soul says that she or he does not want to interact with Rms125a, and Rms125a doesn't seem to want to get communications from Obsidian Soul, that sounds to me like both editors would be glad to have an interaction ban between them. If both were to indicate their agreement here, it can be logged and this thread could be closed. BMK (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

So no one actually sees the problem with his edits, huh? Go figure. You really believe his little story about finding it fascinating that someone's mother has 18 children by 3 men and is hinted to be a sex worker, and that's why he labels it as "very important biodata"? Or the fact that he picked the one part in a long news article that can be taken the wrong way (nepotism) and then includes it in Wikipedia under a bullshit rationale of using a reliable source that someone else recommended to him?

Regardless if they are in the sources or were actually spoken (in jest) by the subjects, they violate WP:BLP. And he's doing it in the obvious hope that a third party would notice that the links I gave in support of my Keep !votes in his AfDs (as he's emphasized a few times) may have some things that are sensationalist. That is WP:POINTY is it not?

Let me ask just one question to the administrators here: are his two additions to those articles potentially libelous or not? If you can say no to that and can restore those content in good conscience per WP:BLP, then I would accept an WP:IBAN. If not then no. I dislike interacting with him intensely, but I'd rather not have my ability to fix his childishness gimped by bureaucratic bullshit if no one else bothers to do so. I spent 30 minutes fixing his indent trolling in his last frivolous AN/I just to make it readable because no one else apparently saw any problem with that behavior either.

And no. Despite my dislike of him as an editor, this is not personal. I suggest looking at his actions, not his words.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 18:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

"You really believe his little story about finding it fascinating that someone's mother has 18 children by 3 men and is hinted to be a sex worker" -- I hinted she was a "sex worker"?? That's news to me. Since the quote came from her daughter, I seriously have to wonder where the "sex worker" angle came in. Because this is the first time I am hearing it.

I just caught the error by another editor in synopsizing my editing, and I must, as a moral imperative, clarify that I did not say "3 men", I said "3 husbands", as per her own daughter (Bovick)'s comments. Quis separabit? 01:47, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

While you do that, you should also clarify that you copied the whole paragraph verbatim without quotes (yes that's WP:COPYVIO too, but whatever). The author said "husband". Not you.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 02:29, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

"are his two additions to those articles potentially libelous or not?" - If they are they delete them and block me. I no longer give a shit. By all means let him fix what he finds objectionable and I will ask for advice from a third party if I disagree.

"I spent 30 minutes fixing his indent trolling in his last frivolous AN/I just to make it readable because no one else apparently saw any problem with that behavior either" -- indenting obsession paranoia (again; see above); I don't know how I am screwing up so badly at indenting yet no one else mentions it.

(Redacted) Quis separabit? 18:47, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

That last paragraph went way over the line. Don't do that. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:59, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry. Quis separabit? 19:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

Since Rms12a@hotmail.com and Obsidian Soul didn't respond to my suggestion for a voluntary interaction ban, but preferred to keep sniping at each other instead, I propose a non-voluntary interaction ban imposed by the community; your standard off-the-shelf pret a porter iBan, with no unusual bells and whistles.

Not even going to answer my question? This isn't even a content dispute. Were his edits in good faith and do they pass WP:BLP? It's a simple enough question that actually addresses the underlying problem to all this. An iBan is convenient, but it doesn't fix anything. Unless you're actually agreeing that I'm doing this to "stalk" and "harass" him? -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 23:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support - As proposer. BMK (talk) 23:16, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I apologize, @Beyond My Ken -- I was unaware of the "suggestion for a voluntary interaction ban" thus did not apologize reply, although I have been keeping tabs on this page obviously and did not see anything which required my response. Apologies. I need to read upon on IBAN; hopefully it will work. I will contact you if I have any questions. Thanks. Quis separabit? 00:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

@BMK: I think I understand. One question -- if a there is an edit that needs or can be substantively improved made by the other IBAN-involved editor, does one go to AN/I or start a talkpage discussion? How would that be handled, in the unfortunate event that such a situation arose? Thanks in advance for the 411. Quis separabit? 00:10, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you bring your suggested change to the talk page, and allow another editor to make the change if they agree with it. You do not revert the edit yourself, or engage in discussion with the editor you're I-Banned with. BMK (talk) 02:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support The interaction between the users is toxic. Rms125a@hotmail.com appears to have made good faith attempts to learn from his mistakes and even if his attempts have been imperfect Obsidian Soul's rebuff goes far beyond a simple failure to AGF. If these two editors plan on working anywhere 'near' each other at least an interaction ban will provide consequences for continuing the conflict. Interaction bans do often cause trouble but in this case letting the situation fester seems worse. It would be better if both editors accepted the IBAN voluntarily but Obsidian Soul appears to have refused above. Jbh^Talk 00:30, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

"Appears". And still no one actually seeks to understand why I reverted him or why I left a note concerning his edits, other than just assuming it's a personal vendetta. Even though unlike him, I don't have a history of such behavior. I accept the voluntary iBan, if that's the only thing you can come up with. I'm tired. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 01:01, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

@Obsidian Soul: Yes, I did seek to understand both of your positions before I commented. I think you, quite rightly, got angry at some poorly researched AfDs and the conflict spun out of control from there. You were right Rms125a was making some bad nominations and they have admitted it. What you see as POINTy behavior I choose to see, barring clear evidence otherwise, as an attempt to learn, move on and work to repair damage caused by carelessness. This is what we want editors to do and we are bound to assume good faith when others try correct mistakes. I hope the iBan will give each of you time and distance to see each other as something other than opponents. I do empathize with your frustration, assuming good faith can at times be a pain but without that all conflicts here would turn into iBans and Wikipedia would close up because no one could talk with each other. Jbh^Talk 01:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

These aren't clear enough? [11] [12]. He's not that stupid or (given his time on Wikipedia) that clueless about WP:BLP as to not realize that what he inserted say pretty terrible things about the subjects. When he seemingly retracted his bad AfDs ("reluctantly" as he characterized it), I didn't comment. That was AGF. But then he added those. What will he do next to "repair damage" in the AfDs that gets kept? Insert another titillating factoid bordering on scandalous from one of the sources I gave to demonstrate GNG? There's assuming good faith, and then there's swallowing bullshit. That said, moot point. As long as he doesn't do anything like that again (and no, I don't mean the AfDs), I'll be absolutely ecstatic if I don't ever deal with him ever again. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 01:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Obsidian_Soul RMS's edits did not violate BLP. He had multiple reliable sources for what he was putting in , the sources said what he said they said, so no BLP violations. KoshVorlon 11:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon: I've quoted the applicable lines from WP:BLP below. Also take note that the policies on WP:DUE and WP:COPYVIO are also relevant here.

WP:BLP: Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages.

WP:BLPSTYLE: Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone. Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content.

WP:BLPGOSSIP:Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.

Arespacochaga is a musician in a highly successful band in the Philippines in the 90s. Do you think mentioning his parents' connections to politicians and high-ranking executives in show business when he was growing up is relevant to the article? Bovick in turn is an actress. Does her mother's occupation (btw, in case most of you are as clueless as he is, "dancer in Cubao" is a euphemism for strippers), number of husbands and children, also qualify as "very important biodata"? Take into consideration that the articles as they stand are virtually empty of anything else.

Lastly, he did not find those sources. Neither did he use "multiple reliable sources" for the claims. He used one each (this for Bovick and this for Arespacochaga), all of them are sources that I found and gave in support of the AfD discussions on them. Both of them are published by reliable secondary sources (a national newspaper and a national TV network, respectively). Both of them are lengthy articles discussing the subjects' lives. And while the sources themselves are reliable, the content ranged from factual information to irrelevant trivia (that again, can be taken as libelous in the wrong context). He ignored all the rest of the information, and copied just those paragraphs verbatim to our articles, improper tone and untranslated Taglish and all. You really think there are no problems with that?

Just because a source is reliable, doesn't mean you should treat everything in it is appropriate for a Wikipedia article. Otherwise we might as well go ahead and add the snippet about Bovick showing her boobs at her first audition.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 17:18, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Obsidian Soul I saw your response, but waited to see if anyone else wanted to weigh in first. To answer you, BLPGossip would apply if what was in the articles was actually gossip. you removed | this from Paco Arespacochaga and | this from Aleck Bovick . The source for Paco was found in the GMA network, which is described [| in this entry ] as "a major commercial television and radio network in the Philippines.", not a tabloid, a major network. The source for Aleck Bovick was PhilStar, aka Philippine Star was is described [| here ] as "...the leading print and digital newspaper in the Philippines..." again, not a tabloid, but the leading newspaper, a tabloid wouldn't be described that way. Second, both links quote either the band or the person as the source for their information, so no, it's not gossip.

As for BLPSTYLE, what you removed was less than 1 paragraph of information, that by itself makes it no a style violation, more importantly, it didn't involve guilt by association, etc...

As for BLP itself, the wording was actually conservative, it could have been worded a lot worse (and a lot more un-conservatively!) Again, the sources in both cases were either the band or the artist themselves, as reported by reliable sources.

So, none fail BLP, and no one else has supported this claim either. You appear to be whitewashing both entries, in effect, removing things you don't like. Lay off that article and RMS as well. KoshVorlon 16:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon You just repeated what I said. -_- I'll say this again for the millionth time: the sources are from ME. I gave them to him to support my Keep !vote in the AfDs on them. Even how you described GMA and PhilStar is almost exactly like how I described them to him. Because unlike you, he didn't bother to find out about them at all initially.

And read it again: "whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." - gossip does not mean false. Sensationalism is also gossip. The giving of undue weight to information or events which are irrelevant to the subject matter but are exciting to the reader. Trivia. It doesn't matter if it comes from the subjects themselves, or whether even if they are true. The question is if they're relevant to their notability and appropriate for an encyclopedic article on them. I asked you if you understood what WP:DUE WEIGHT means and its significance in BLP articles. And I have my answer. You do not.

Yes, I removed 1 paragraph of information in each article which each had around 4 sentences in total. That is the entire point. They were the lengthiest part of the articles and they had nothing to do with why they were notable. That is undue weight.

Lastly, you saying that the wording itself is "conservative" is the part where I can truly tell that you didn't read or understand what I wrote previously. Both are COPYRIGHT VIOLATIONS. He copied the paragraphs without changing anything from the articles. One of them (on Bovick) included a joke (in Taglish) by Bovick that her mother died of blood loss due to having too many children (she didn't, she died by leukemia). Both of them are literally taken out of context, and the tone is literally that of your usual "showbiz news" segments. How you can characterize that as conservatively written is beyond me.

WP:BLP is not simply about WP:RS, it's also about context and due weight. If it wasn't, what prevents me from adding the part from the same article where Bovick confesses that she showed her breasts in her first audition? Or do you think that that's perfectly okay too?

He has explicitly stated that he wants to delete the "Miley Cyruses" from Wikipedia. He ignored all the earlier comments on his refusal to do a WP:BEFORE until very recently when too many (non-Filipino) editors started chiming in, and has stated that he has no intentions of going over possibly wrongly deleted AfDs in the past. So I highly doubt that he added those paragraphs out of the goodness of his heart either.

I'll ignore the accusation of whitewashing. That's pretty much what RMS originally accused me of too, and the reason why I lost my temper originally. Just note that I have edited those articles a grand total of ONCE. I do not write articles on Philippine pop celebrities, nor am I a fan of any.

Also note that I have never posted on his talk page. I have only interacted with him on the AfDs in question, on the topic on his AfDs in the Philippine Wikiproject (which I did not start and involved a lot more editors), and here in AN/I (which he started). Note as well that I have only posted in his AfDs when they were listed at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Philippines. I did not find them by looking at his contribs. I didn't even notice his edits on Arespacochaga's and Bovick's articles until he explicitly mentioned them in their AfDs. I have also been commenting on other AfDs in that list, and not all of my !votes are a mindless "Keep".

He, on the other hand, has taken me to AN/I three times, accused me (and at least a couple of other editors) of stalking and gaming the system, accused me of COI, and slyly accused me of either sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry (from what I can tell anyway) in another AfD because I misread a name of another !voter, and (despite his innocent protestations otherwise) intentionally added {{od}} templates after every single paragraph since I first indicated that he was misusing them.

And after all that, you think that it is I who was doing the harassing? Is it because he talks so much nicer around here? I've made no secret of my temper, nor do I believe that WP:AGF trumps WP:SPADE at all times. And this right here, is absolute horseshit. No worries about me leaving RMS alone though. As I've said repeatedly, to me, interacting with him is at most a necessary unpleasantness that I would very much prefer to avoid. But yes, good point, no one has stepped up to back me up or even just confirmed my worries. Not even simple factual things like the copyright violation. That disturbs me more than you think with regards to the state of the "community".

Carry on then. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 18:55, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Question(s)

What is the OP alleging, and where are the diffs to support his allegations? (Otherwise, this thread is just a meaningless series of backbiting and bickering.) And what remedies is the OP possibly seeking (or else why post here?)? Softlavender (talk) 18:30, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Legal threats on Tube/Subway Challenge

Raising this here since it's ongoing: shifting IP addresses (apparently socks of User:Palkanetoijala) are making strong legal threats on the Tube Challenge and Subway Challenge articles and talk pages, claiming to be acting on behalf of a challenge world-record holder who wants his name removed from Wikipedia.

They're not being very clear, but so far as I can tell from this talk page, the user wants Wikipedia to include an unspecified (and presumably unsourced) "actual fastest time" for the London record, and believes that holding a sourced world record is some kind of useful bargaining chip because they mistakenly think that Wikipedia does not have the "rights" to mention a person's name without their permission. They seem to be saying that if Wikipedia won't include the unsourced record, then the record holder won't let Wikipedia include the sourced one either, and they've been making capslock "25 days to comply" legal threats as a result.

Since this claims to be coming from a named individual and this IP talk page says "stop this hello contact me by email" and gives an email address, is there someone who could talk to them directly? --McGeddon (talk) 09:52, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I've dropped them an email through OTRS. Mdann52 (talk) 10:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Previous report on this case Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive900#Legal threat by IP. —Farix (t | c) 11:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

As an addendum, I would also suggest semi-protecting the talk page because the only posts from IPs for the last few days have been to repeat the legal threat. —Farix (t | c) 15:15, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

It's actually already been semi-protected for this reason, since yesterday. --McGeddon (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked the IP for making legal threats. Since this person changes IPs often I made it a short block. HighInBC 01:55, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Just an FYI, the repeatedly blocked editor has returned with a new IP to edit Tube Challenge. I'll leave it up to others to determine whether to revert the edit or block the editor or reprotect the article. Deli nk (talk) 20:47, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Article was protected via a request at WP:RFPP. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Did your email get any response, User:Mdann52? IP addresses are still making legal threats and talking about a "war" against Wikipedia on the Tube challenge talk page. --McGeddon (talk) 08:35, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@McGeddon: As I did this through OTRS, I'm not going to go into too much detail, but I've stopped corresponding due to further legal threats being made in the email discussion. Mdann52 (talk) 09:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@Mdann52: The question is, is it really Andi James or someone pretending to be him. The writing style doesn't appear to be someone who is an adult or have a very good command of the English language. —Farix (t | c) 11:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

A Tube Challenge forum thread has a user with the same name as the sockmaster making the same threats against Wikipedia in the same tone of voice, with nobody calling him out as an impostor. But it makes no difference if it's an upset world record holder trying to overrule Wikipedia's sourcing policy by making legal threats, or a troll trying to goad Wikipedia into overreacting and blanking Andi's official record - there's been no good reason given for blanking a sourced world record. --McGeddon (talk) 18:01, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I honestly think it is a troll, especially with the consent shift between first and third person when referring to Andi James. —Farix (t | c) 18:36, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Continued legal threats made at User talk:94.2.166.80. clpo13_(talk) 21:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat

There seems to be some type of legal threat at Talk:Tube Challenge placed by 194.176.105.20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) in this edit. I'll leave it up to the admins here to determine how to handle it. Edgeweyes (talk) 12:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Note also the #Legal threats on Tube/Subway Challenge section above. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 12:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War

Something strange is happening with moves related to this page. It has been unilaterally moved without discussion to this page. People copy-paste large chunks of text. I think this page should be moved back to the original title and move-protected. All procedures must be properly followed. If people want to rename the page, they must make an RfC and wait for consensus. Furthermore, it seems that someone modified redirect to hinder moves by other participants. This is just another reason to move it back per this Arbcom decision. Administrative attention required. My very best wishes (talk) 19:24, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

To move the page back, you may go to WP:RM#TR and file an Uncontroversial technical request (following the instructions and using the template), with the rationale that the prior move was made without discussion. An admin will then make the move shortly.

I believe this thread may therefore be closed, as ANI is not the venue desired. Softlavender (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:43, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

You can also ask David O. Johnson about the move, since he was the one who performed it. It would be good to get his input and collaborate with him. Notice of this ANI has been left on his talk page. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:43, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

No, I can not go to Uncontroversial technical request because I think this move is controversial. My very best wishes (talk) 19:47, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Parsa1993 is the one who originally moved it to the current title [13]; I just moved it back. I thought their arguments in support of the move were valid. David O. Johnson (talk) 20:24, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Redacted my statement above. Sorry! ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:52, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I see. OK, one possible solution is to keep both pages for now and discuss their merging. Therefore, I just made revert in the redirect and marked them to discuss merging. But it seems that both pages have the same talk page.My very best wishes (talk) 20:40, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

There are now articles Russian intervention in Syria, Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War, Russia's role in the Syrian Civil War, Russian-Iranian military intervention in Syria, Foreign involvement in the Syrian Civil War, and Syrian Civil War. I may have missed others. There's extensive overlap. A neutral party is needed to organize that mess. Syrian Civil War should probably be the lead article, with the usual arrangements for subarticles. Is there some relevant WikiProject that can take this on? Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

And no one noticed WP:NOTNEWS, in their eagerness to get the scoop on the article, the title, the content. Drmies (talk) 21:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps this thread can be closed by now, but I think some admins should watch these pages.My very best wishes (talk) 23:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

One of those articles just hit the front page of Wikipedia. The subject is important enough and complex enough that it needs serious attention. But none of the task forces under Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Directory/History and society#Military and warfare seem to cover that conflict. The original poster here wasn't sure he was in the right place. There is no obvious right place. Sugggestions? John Nagle (talk) 01:55, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Status quo

There are currently only two overlapping articles (the others listed above by John Nagle are overarching parent articles), plus a redirect:

• Russian intervention in Syria (redirect)

(NOTE: currently a redirect, but with 23,000 bytes of content prior. HOWEVER, the page was a cut&paste move and rename of Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War anyway)

• Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War
• Russian-led military intervention in Syria [until 12:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC) titled Russian–Iranian military intervention in Syria]

Since September 30 there has been a Requested Move that Russian intervention in the Syrian Civil War → Russian intervention in Syria.

Since today there is now a MERGE proposal to Merge Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War into Russian-led military intervention in Syria.

Somewhere in all of the recent and fairly recent cut&paste moves (numerous), pop-up redirects, re-namings, double redirects, normal moves, and a change from hyphen to en-dash, things got duplicated (or possibly also overlapped or lost or whatever). (It's a bit hard to untangle as it involves half a dozen titles and page histories due to the various intervening titles and redirect pages.)

ADDENDUM: The two existing articles (Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War and the currently titled as of 13:01, 4 October 2015 UTC Russian-led military intervention in Syria) are virtually identical and one needs to be deleted.

-- Softlavender (talk) 04:42, 4 October 2015 (UTC); edited 05:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

UPDATE: EkoGraf has just moved Russian–Iranian military intervention in Syria to Russian-led military intervention in Syria. At least it wasn't a cut&paste move. I am going to re-do the titles above to reflect the change. Softlavender (talk) 12:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Softlavender Yeah I moved it from Russian–Iranian to Russian-led because the addition of Iranian to the title was unilateral and had not gone through any discussion at the talk page (while a discussion for another rename had still been ongoing). I wanted to change it back to the title from before the addition of Iranian (to preserve the status quo) but couldn't so I moved it to a title that seemed to be at least one of those most agreed to on the talk page. If I made some kind of mistake by doing so I apologize. EkoGraf (talk) 05:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I personally don't have any serious objection ... other than it happened to add to the confusion and the amount of housekeeping I had to do to keep track of titles in this thread, and also it created some confusion in the discussions on those article pages. I think it was a good move; it's just the whole past 5 days has been a nightmare of about 10 articles or titles being created on the exact same subject. Hopefully it will all get straightened out in the next five or so days, and all the extraneous articles will be deleted. And for heaven's sake people need to remember that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Softlavender (talk) 06:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

All of these pages should be labelled as under general sanctions

See Wikipedia:General sanctions/Syrian Civil War and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. See Wikipedia:General sanctions#Community-authorised sanctions. They need talk page notices and Edit notices for the article pages. Doug Weller (talk) 12:54, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Use {{Editnotice SCW 1RR}} for the article page and {{Syrian Civil War sanctions}} for the talk page. To make an edit notice visit Wikipedia:Editnotice. Doug Weller (talk) 12:58, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok, most of these are done, although some of the redirect pages may need them if they are moved back. Doug Weller (talk) 13:07, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

It might be worthwhile for an admin to lock Russian-led military intervention in Syria, merge Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War into it, and delete Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War before unlocking. That would save a lot of hassle because the articles are being edited as we speak, leading to more and more text to worry about. After the deletion and unlock, people can debate about the title as much as they please. Anyone who then moves without RM consensus, or cut&paste creates a new article, should receive an immediate block. Softlavender (talk) 13:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Block requests can go to RPP, but it's not our role to make content or merge decisions such as the one above. Doug Weller (talk) 13:34, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

The later article was an exact duplication of the first, and I've seen admins fix that sort of situation before it got out of hand. Given that the articles are being treated as newspapers with daily if not hourly updates, the sooner the page duplication is zapped the better, in my mind. That's my personal opinion, anyway. Softlavender (talk) 13:40, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Nothing prevents anyone from making an AfD or using an RfC to discuss merging. I do not think this case is anything special. My very best wishes (talk) 15:02, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

• Note there is also the page 2015 Russian air raids in Syria. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:27, 4 October 2015 (UTC).
  

Oh yes, we now have four pages about exactly the same: Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War (that was the first one; I think it should remain), Russian–Iranian military intervention in Syria, Russian-led military intervention in Syria and 2015 Russian air raids in Syria... My very best wishes (talk) 02:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

No, there are only three; you are confusing the redirect. There is the first article, its duplicate, and then the content fork (the latter which I just AfDed -- thanks Rich Farmbrough for pointing that one out). Softlavender (talk) 02:55, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

That's a progress. This merging discussion needs closing and action. I think the consensus was to keep page Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War and make Russian-led military intervention in Syria a redirect, while keeping its edit history to allow merging of content (the pages are not exactly the same). My very best wishes (talk) 13:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I've closed the discussion as "merge". I'm not familiar with the topic, so I'm not going to do the merge itself; I redirected "Russian-led" to "Russian", added a note in the page history reminding reusers that the histories of both pages are now necessary for attribution. Hopefully someone else will merge the pages, simply copying content from old revisions of "Russian-led" into the current edition of "Russian". Nyttend (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• No logic. The clone article Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War (created by copypaste on 3 Oct with small number of useful edits) must be redirected to original article Russian-led military intervention in Syria created on 30 Sep), but not vice versa, as of now! Also in the first RM section it was consensus for "in Syria" name, but against "in the Syrian Civil War". 178.94.165.139 (talk) 08:46, 7 October 2015 (UTC) P.S. Softlavender's proposition in this thread will be the best solution, I think. Admins, please do as he said. 178.94.165.139 (talk) 08:55, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Winkelvi

• Ahmed Mohamed clock incident (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Winkelvi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The editing environment at Ahmed Mohamed clock incident and the associated talk page is bad, and everyone there (myself included) needs to to work better at focusing on article content rather than attacks. Even in that context, though, I feel that User:Winkelvi has repeatedly crossed the line, and their disruption is making any sort of improvement in the tone impossible. Yesterday got into a bit of a row with them and figured a little time would do us both well, but today their replies to posts as carefully worded as I know how have continued to be attacks. I think per their comment here that Winkelvi is misinterpreting discussion on a contentious topic with BLP concerns as obstinance, but that doesn't really help me see a path forward. Help de-escalating the situation would be appreciated.

Examples of edits I find inappropriate:

• linking off-Wiki attacks on another editor
• restoring links to off-Wiki attacks on another editor
• [14]
• accusation of "intimidation"

Attempts to resolve the issue on the user's talk page [15], [16]. Notified here.

Thanks,

VQuakr (talk) 23:01, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

That Reddit discussion is toxic and really has no place being linked on the talk page. Talk pages are for improving the article, and pointing out how people in an anti-Wikipedia subreddit feel about the article doesn't help one bit. clpo13_(talk) 23:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

So, VQuakr, are you reporting yourself? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:52, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

In the sense that my edits are going to be scrutinized due to my posting here, sure. VQuakr (talk) 17:15, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the article talk page, VQuakr clearly had consensus on their side. Winkelvi's edits were opposed because they served to obfuscate the central events/facts in the teen-clock-arrest episode through euphemism and poor wording. Winkelvi also attempted to introduce the weasel word "claim" into the lead, in a way that cast suspicion on the teenager Ahmed Mohamed. I have no idea if any of this requires an admin response, but VQuakr's behavior appears correct at Ahmed Mohamed clock incident. -Darouet (talk) 18:28, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

• Winkelvi, can we have another strong reminder about the need to be WP:CIVIL in your conduct and communication[17] with other editors. Do you have suggestion about what we do this time (/next time) your user-ID appears here with diffs showing lack of WP:CIVILity in interaction. —Sladen (talk) 05:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Winkelvi, given[18], will you be able to find time to reply to the thread here on ANI? —Sladen (talk) 19:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Judging from the radio silence I surmise the answer is in the negative. By the way, in noting the diff posted by Sladen above, I found that it is a reference to this edit of another user's comment at an AfD that was questionable to say the least. I can understand the redaction, maybe, but removing the IP's comment, later reverted by another use, was both unexplained and unwarranted. Coretheapple (talk) 16:12, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
      • Not "unexplained". As far as not commenting here: not interested in giving credence to the attempt by the filer in selectively and discriminately stirring the drama shit pot. As it seems you are attempting to (once again) do in regard to me, Coretheapple. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:54, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
        • Well I'm glad you dealt with that. How are you going to deal with this WP:CIVIL issue? Coretheapple (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Having looked over Winkelvi's talk page, there was a request earlier today[19] from Checkingfax for further information about why Checkingfax might had received a warning from Winkelvi (the warning is presumably [20]—reverted immediately by [21] by Calidum. I'll concur that the language appears to be polite on this occasion, but the assertion of "Looks pretty clear to me." instead of explanation, or even WP:DIFFS is concerning. Furthermore, I observe that the prompting to Winkelvi to perhaps engage got silently removed[22]. If this "radio silence" (/apparent unwillingness to engage in follow-ups) is widespread in so-many of these [attempted] interactions with Winkelvi this could be perhaps the source of some of the difficulties, leading to the tension and subsequent temptation for in-WP:CIVILility. —Sladen (talk) 07:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC) …And, I see we now have WP:ANI#User:Checkingfax reported by User:Winkelvi over at ANI.

• Checkingfax was engaged in deadnaming re Caitlin Jenner and may also have been logging out to avoid scrutiny, I have issued a warning about that [23] since that, at least, is unambiguously unacceptable. Guy (Help!) 10:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Just noting that my revert mentioned above was accidental and I immediately self-reverted, as explained on my talk page. I have nothing further to add. Calidum 18:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat made by user

A user has apparently made a legal threat at Special:Diff/684324996. Gparyani (talk) 23:28, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, he appears to be WP:BROTHERing here: Special:Diff/684326379 Gparyani (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Talking to what seems to be a youngish editor. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

If his younger brother did it, then he's in violation of the rules by not securing his account. So either way, he has to be indef'd. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Or we we can take the situation for what it is - a young editor messing about - and respond accordingly. If it happens again, block them. In the mean time... hey look! Squirrel! --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I suppose that could be seen as a retraction of the legal threat and thus obviate the need for a preventative block. HighInBC 05:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Technically, yes. It would be a retraction of a legal threat, as childish as this situation is... :-) ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:40, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Strivingsoul disruptive editing and soapboxing

Strivingsoul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has previously been blocked for battleground editing after a report by Kudzu1,[24] and later reported again by Ian.thomson.[25] Already at that time there was understanding that the user is WP:NOTHERE, as the user has since effectively admitted to by stating that they "never shy away from defending what is justified according to our religion".[26] The user constantly enters edit wars and off-topic discussions to promote Irano-Islamist views in article space and talk space.[27][28][29][30][31][32][33]--Anders Feder (talk) 08:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

First off, I already admit my fault at getting caught in a few edit wars early during my past activities on Wiki. And I have done my best ever since to stick to the three-edit revert rule and settle the disputes in the talk pages as my knowledge of Wiki policies grew.

However, what prompted this user to make this complaint in particular is not really my past performance. What we have here is a clear case of diametrically opposed philosophical/political persuasions. Andres Feder apparently comes from a very strong atheist persuasion which has already prompted him to attack and ridicule beliefs of muslim contributors several times, which has indeed caused offense in the past for some users and has apparently led to WP:CIVILITY warning for him in a past ANI.

But beyond his continued violation of WP:CIVILITY, I can also identify the very same ideological prejudices behind his repeated allegations aimed at discrediting Iranian sources such as PressTV even in subjects where having Iranian official POVs are crucial for maintaining WP:NPOV. I have already dedicated my time a few times countering his arguments such as here and here, arguing for various ideological, political and financial biases of Western sources that he uses to suppress Iranian POVs reported by the official media outlets of the Islamic Republic of Iran based on the pretext that "Iranian media are controlled by the theocracy". So here's the real controversy that has led to his complaint against me. But he apparently wants to condition the users here against me by deflecting attention from the root cause of the difference. He wants to frame a random statement of mine where I said "I never shy away from defending what is justified according to our religion" to imply that I want to push my personal opinions into Wikipedia content. But that's not whatsoever the case and you can clearly see that if you examine the context of that statement. There, I was not whatsoever making that statement in violation of Wikipedia policies. That was basically a statement of my personal belief that came at the end of a discussion about the legal foundations of the Islamic Republic of Iran with a fellow Iranian! It was never made and never meant as statement standing against any Wikipedia policy. In keeping with Wiki policies, I had already explained in length by citing information and sources to counter his repeated allegations of bias against Iranian sources based on Orientalist charges of dictatorship against a very distinct form of theocratic-democratic political system that has emerged out of Shia political philosophy. Admins can already see my record on Islam/Shia/Iran-related topics to appreciate my contributions which has the effect of improving WP:BIAS against Iran/Shia/Islamic topics some of which remain highly underrepresented not just in Wikipedia but in the greater world as well. Strivingsoul (talk) 09:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Strivingsoul, you go beyond simply advocating inclusion of the Iranian or Shia points of view to vigorous denouncing of those who oppose you. We can include accurate summaries of any point of view regardless of how unreliable, in a general sense, a source may be. You are correct that you are entitled to indefinitely advocate for an Islamist point of view with respect to any Wikipedia policy or content, but you cannot be disruptive in doing so. You need to totally reexamine the way you are conducting yourself. Better behavior on your part will not solve the behavior problems of others or resolve content issues, but is a minimum requirement for continuing to edit effectively. User:Fred Bauder Talk 09:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

But in opposing I put forward evidences and cite information for legitimate reasons. Please note that the primary counterpart of this controversy has always been Anders Feder alone. He continues to bring up the same POVs that are controversial and he tries to render his claims as a factual, objective ground to remove Iranian POVs from nearly whatever Iran-related topics I participate in. I don't know why he is so adamantly opposed to Iran. I even suspect his strong prejudice might be rooted in his sympathy for the state of Israel that is Iran's adversary. I can't find other explanation for a user who repeatedly desecrates my religion and attacks my country based on his personal persuasions. I'm not saying he should not disagree as he has every right to, but to fixate on repeated allegations regardless of repeater counter arguments is what bothers me and is truly disrupting. Strivingsoul (talk) 09:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

"I even suspect his strong prejudice might be rooted in his sympathy for the state of Israel" Jew-baiting, who should have thunk? I have no particular sympathy for Israel or anyone else, and readily act against Zionist POV-editors such as this one too. The reliability of your Iranian sources have been debated extensively here, including by yourself.--Anders Feder (talk) 10:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

His discussion of issues is also inappropriate, and he may be handling Iranian sources improperly. He is not wrong, as he strongly points out, and has good sources for, when he claims Iranian media is both controlled by the state and propagandistic. You don't have to be a Zionist to get that. The question is how to handle inclusion of the point of view without incorporating "facts" from an unreliable source. This is not easy. Denial of the unreliability of Iranian media is not a viable tactic; there are even claims, by Iranian leaders, that strong expressions of opinion by other Iranian leaders are not to be taken at face value. Nevertheless, assertions of opinion in Iranian media may be included as valid expressions of the point of view of the state. User:Fred Bauder Talk 10:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean by saying that Iranian media are "controlled"? All media in the world are controlled but I don't see BBC for example being undermined for being funded and controlled by the UK government! And whether this or that media is "propagandistic" is quite subjective and depends on one's political stance! Strivingsoul (talk) 10:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I mean that the state determines the content. The content of the BBC is determined by the British state which requires, other than with respect to certain sensitive issues, that the content of the BBC be reliable. That is not the case in Iran. Such a determination does not depend on one's political stance but on knowledge of the international media. If you chose to edit using Iranian sources (or Russian or Chinese, or American, for that matter) you need to have some sense of what is simply factual, possibly factual, or just plain made up. We do use highly questionable sources, for example, the rate of growth of the Chinese economy, as reported by the Chinese government. Likewise, some Iranian material can be used, but not all. Determining what is appropriate is a matter of editorial judgement. It should not all be excluded, nor should tendentious assertions be accepted as reliable. User:Fred Bauder Talk 10:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Exactly the same can be said about Iran. "The content of the PressTV (for argument's sake) is determined by the Iranian state which requires, other than with respect to certain sensitive issues, that the content of the PressTV be reliable. That is not the case in Britain...." but it seems that somehow Western governments are inherently superior to Iran even if they are lead by hereditary monarchs whereas Iran is lead by a modest religious scholar who is appointed and monitored by an elected body of legal experts. Strivingsoul (talk) 11:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely not! Iran could choose to have a free reliable media. There is an overwhelming international consensus that much of the controversial information in Iranian media cannot be trusted and is inappropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia other than as the opinion of the Iranian state. Feel free to advocate for its inclusion, but please don't be disruptive about doing so. That includes ascribing motives such as Zionism to other editors, beating on them, or repeatedly making edits against the general consensus. Please try to find the best Iranian, Islamist, or Shia sources and consistently use them. I'm not that familiar with Farsi media, but I know there are excellent, mediocre, and poor sources in English. Consistently advance the best. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Strivingsoul, Great Britain is led by its Prime Minister and a democratically elected assembly, as is the Netherlands, etc. , with hereditary monarchs playing a ceremonial role but with no real power. And the BBC's content is not controlled by the state - it's also funded by a license fee, not the government. Doug Weller (talk) 14:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

But still the Monarch apparently appoints BBC's Board of Trustees in Council. The licensing is also mandatory for citizens. And there's been all sorts of criticisms of biased reporting against the corporation. The most notorious bias undoubtedly effects BBC Mid-Eastern coverage which has been the target of UK imperialist policies and its alliance with the state of Israel which has been been a source of plight for muslims for more than 6 decades. But we don't see anyone seriously questioning BBC's reliability at least on Mid-Eastern/Muslim developments. Strivingsoul (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

While the Queen makes the appointments, she has no choice in the matter : "BBC Trustees are appointed by the Queen on advice from DCMS (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) ministers through the Prime Minister. When new Trustees are needed the posts are publicly advertised. Trustees are chosen on merit and the process is regulated by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments." (from http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/who_we_are/trustees/appointment.html). The British constitutional monarch is titular head of state, but not head of government except for ceremonial purposes. ArglebargleIV (talk) 20:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Anders Feder, I have done what I can in the way of jawboning. As noted above, you too, need to do much better. Keep in mind that all states, and points of view, have their media voice, and that all media is in some sense biased, if only in what they choose to report. It is the controversial tendentious assertions of factual content that seek to advance sectarian objectives that need to excluded, not every fact published. Consider the objectives of the Iranian state while making editorial decisions. For example, they would like to embarrass Saudi Arabia over the Hajj, so they might assert questionable facts with respect to the recent tragedy. Obviously, if the behavior you complain of continues indefinitely User:Strivingsoul must eventually be blocked, or even banned, but please don't make him feel that nothing in Iranian media is acceptable. User:Fred Bauder Talk 15:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

What about his demeaning statements against the muslim beliefs?! Does he really have to attack our beliefs for working in Wikipedia?! Strivingsoul (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

In addition, that past RfC never refuted my rebuttal of argument from control. As I also argued there and again here, if control is the problem then all media outlets are somehow controlled either by governments or corporations. There has been indeed scholarly critique of the hazards of corporate consolidation of mass media which can affect their objectivity and/or reliability. Please have a look at Corporate media. Strivingsoul (talk) 17:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I go by the closing comment on the RfC linked above.[34] If anyone opens a new RfC on that, I am happy to follow the outcome.--Anders Feder (talk) 15:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

It is sound, but you are twisting the knife. User:Fred Bauder Talk 16:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

What source have I opposed that I should not have opposed?--Anders Feder (talk) 16:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

None that I know of but don't be so nasty. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

By the way, User:Strivingsoul, David Duke, and anything connected with him is a subject you should avoid. It is a hot button issue due to his notoriety; a stick in the eye does not make friends. This sort of behavior can easily form the basis of a topic ban as can any anti-Semitic editing, especially using Iranian sources. User:Fred Bauder Talk 15:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your good-faith advise. But I am afraid I have to defer! First off, I perfectly knew that David Duke is notorious for his past association with the White Supremacist KKK back in 1970s. But what I also know in addition is that over the last 3 decades Duke has apparently developed a very distinct career which can be described as only a White nationalist. Studying his career over the last decade I never saw him harboring any racist sentiments against Africans or advocating anti-Semitism. The reason I'm saying this and I dare to say this is that I personally read his book Jewish Supremacism and therefore I could directly learn about his character and positions from that book. And having read his book I could outright tell that a number of allegations about his views as expressed in the book are totally unfounded. And interestingly those allegations mainly come from such notorious sources as the ADL which has a long history of attacking and defaming even critiques of Zionist genocidal policies and have been exposed for spying on American activists who speak for Palestinian rights! David Duke similarly over the last three decades has been speaking out against Zionist atrocities against Palestinians and for that reason, it is not hard to tell why there is so many vicious libels heaped against him by the ADL and/or other pro-Israeli sources. I know you may find these hard to believe but please before rushing to judgment at least have a look at these two videos where he is given opportunity to speak for himself. In this interview he doesn't whatsoever sound like a White supremacist bigot. He openly rejects any form of racism but also believes that there's a dominant anti-Christian/anti-White prejudice in US media. In his Youtube channel as in this one he deeply sympathizes with the tragic suffering of Palestinians at the hand of Zionist state and is trying to raise awareness. These are some of the alternative sources that paint a much more charitable picture of this person and these alternative perspective supports my claim of bias as per WP:NPOV in the review of the book. Strivingsoul (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

There is no practical difference between "White Nationalism" and "White Supremacism". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:27, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly, an IP editor from the UK made the exact same distinction in this edit.--Anders Feder (talk) 17:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

That it is possible in an abstract way does not determine the issue, the attitudes of those organized under the banner do, and anti-Semitism is the touchstone, a non sequitur with respect to any genuine advocacy of European welfare. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

You are not listening: you have your wet tongue on a 440 Volt line and you are standing in water. Given this post I would not oppose a permanent topic ban from editing any subject related to Jews or Israel. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I did not mean he has not been a White supremacist. But from studying his recent interviews, articles and books over the last decade that are available, it is clear that he no longer advocates white supremacy which is defined as a form of racism centered upon the belief, and promotion of the belief, that white people are superior in certain characteristics, traits, and attributes to people of other racial backgrounds and that therefore whites should politically, economically and socially rule non-whites according to White supremacy. In the interview I linked he openly condemns slavery and all forms of racism. So please before threatening to ban me for simply pointing out some facts, consider examining the sources that I have suggested. Have I made any unfounded claim or have caused any offense?! And what I suggest in this regard is admitting the bias by ADL in misrepresenting the content of the book, as well as, including Duke's recent positions as per WP:NPOV. And for that I can produce direct quotes from his book that disproves some of the negative allegations against what the book says. I understand these facts may contradict some of the assumptions about this apparently sensitive topic considering the alliance most Western governments have with the state of Israel and as a result a much more positive attitude towards Israel, but in Wikipedia we have to be neutral as you all know. If you have lived in the Middle East or if you were a muslim, you would see that sentiments are very different towards Zionism and Israel in this part of the world for obvious reasons. So don't just take your own perceptions as granted and universal. Strivingsoul (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

You've made many an unfounded claim, not the least of which is Duke isn't racist just because he claims he isn't racist. He just happens to think European (non-Jew) whites are genetically superior to every other people on the planet (including your own) and that the U.S. and Europe should be white only. Visit his website where you can see how he laments that Europe is being "invaded" by Muslims. Or how European whites are more intelligent than all other races. That's racism. As of late he's just turned his racism towards Jews because it sells more of his crappy conspiracy books. Duke is a crank and a laughing stock and the fact that you in any way take him seriously shows you have a very bad grasp of which sources would be considered reliable on Wikipedia. Capeo (talk) 23:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

He claims that every people have a right to preserve their heritage. And that multi-culturalism leads to ethnic tension and conflict and destruction of distinct cultural traits of each people. We may not agree with him but he's making a compelling case for his view, and this is unfair to rush to frame it as racism simply because he is against massive aggressive immigration into Europe and America. He also cites Jewish sources which show how multi-culturalism was promoted by Jewish organizations in order to weaken the Christian culture of America. On a related topic, here is one of the Jewish sources he directly quotes that you can see for yourself. The Jewish author admits and brags about their role in the notorious porn-industry and its dark anti-Christian goals: Jewish involvement in porn, by this argument, is the result of an atavistic hatred of Christian authority: they are trying to weaken the dominant culture in America by moral subversion. (This is really interesting for me, since this is a pattern I have myself witnessed in another case. Israeli Prime Minister Netanhayu had also advocated regime change in Iran back in 2002 through cultural and moral subversion -- by advocating beaming hedonist and degenerate Hollywood productions by a gay Jewish director into Iran in order to corrupt Iranian youths until they revolt against their Islamic government). Just as evident in this example, his book primarily draws from Jewish sources to present his thesis. Most of the book content are NOT his opinions but just quotes after quotes! He is not also claiming there's a crazy conspiracy theory but that Jews have an enormous influence over US media and politics and therefore deeply influence the US culture and politics. And again he backs up his claim by providing testimony from Jews themselves. Here is one of the testimonies he quotes from a Jewish author: I have never been so upset by a poll in my life. Only 22% of Americans now believe "the movie and television industries are pretty much run by Jews," down from nearly 50% in 1964. The Anti-Defamation League, which released the poll results last month, sees in these numbers a victory against stereotyping. Actually, it just shows how dumb America has gotten. Jews totally run Hollywood. So we can probably suggest that this guy talking about "total control of Hollywood by Jews" is a self-hating anti-Semitic Jew!!

And I'll also be happy if you show me a Duke's recent statement that says Whites are superior to non-whites. There could've been such statements coming from him during his youth where he held more radical views, but I've not seen any statement along that vein in those of his works or articles over the last two decades that I have studied. Strivingsoul (talk) 03:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I concur with Fred, anyone who doesn't see antisemitism in Duke's writing and views should not be anywhere near articles on the subject. Capeo (talk) 17:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

What I am simply proposing is balancing the article and admitting the blatant bias of relying primarily on Jewish/Zionist organizations. You did not address any of my evidences and arguments here but only rush to advocate restriction for no legitimate reason. This is not honest. Strivingsoul (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

You supplied no evidence, just typical antisemitic conspiracy theories. Comparing Iranian state run media to western free press is beyond ridiculous. Yes, certain outlets tend towards certain political leanings but they all have one thing in common: they freely criticize or report on criticisms of their governments and state establishments and report on everything and anything newsworthy no matter how it makes their home country look. Daily. With no fear of repercussion from the government. As opposed to say, IRNA, which sets out guidelines that must be followed by their "journalists" that allow for no criticism of the state or Islam. Please. Next time a Western country throws a journalist in jail for "propaganda against the establishment" let me know. Until then, you have no point and should stay far away from away from articles on the subject. Capeo (talk) 20:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Western media control is much more subtle and systematic in nature and it is because of the corporate control of the media that is interconnected with others in the rich corporate ruling class. See Corporate media for this scholarly thesis. So the real influential people in the West are not politicians but the super-rich corporations who fund electoral campaigns and lobby for corporate gain and dictate government policies through "non-profit" foundations, promote their commercials for profit etc. Western sources especially in countries like USA, UK, Canada are also notorious for preventing the public from knowing about many dark facts of their foreign policy, e.g. imperialist catastrophic wars against nations driven by corporate grid disguised under "humanitarian intervention" or "democracy promotion" or decade after decade of unconditional financial and diplomatic support for the Zionist regime despite its long hideous human rights record and several acts of massacre committed against muslims. So you can't have a correct assessment of "freedom" in the press if you are not familiar with Political economy critical analysis of the corporate media or have not followed alternative media reporting of the crucial issues that are systematically censored or highly under-represented or misrepresented by a small number of Corporate media conglomerates that control 90% of the media outlets. But contrary in Iran, big money is not dictating news and public opinions but Islamic principles of a muslim nation. In Iranian state media, presidential candidates all enjoy a free and equal time to present their platform without needing to spend tremendous sums on campaigning, but in the West big corporations can practically decide the outcome of the elections depending on which candidates they choose to financially support. In the West big money rules and defines freedom but in Iran it is the Islamic virtues of its committed leaders. And if there are some fringe journalists who were sentenced for their treason or offending the Islamic beliefs of the majority that doesn't say anything to support the idea of lack of press freedom in Iran. Iran has a constitution that overwhelming majority of Iranians voted for in a public referendum. Strivingsoul (talk) 03:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I honestly don't know why I'm responding, this will be my last, but I can't help myself. I'm aware of all the deficiencies inherent to corporate media and corporate influence on politics. Do you know why? Because these issues are constantly reported on by a vast array of media outlets and politicians in the U.S. You think you're exposing some dark secret yet these discussions and criticisms are at the forefront of debate in the U.S. precisely because we have a free press and the ability to criticize whatever we we wish. This: "And if there are some fringe journalists who were sentenced for their treason or offending the Islamic beliefs of the majority that doesn't say anything to support the idea of lack of press freedom in Iran," displays a stunning disconnect in regards to what a free press and freedom of speech are. Capeo (talk) 12:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• Just a note to mention that I've opened Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Strivingsoul. Viriditas (talk) 03:27, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Community ban

Proposing an indefinite community ban from Wikipedia or a topic ban on anything related to Judaism, broadly construed, per Wikipedia:Competence is required and based on the discussion above, especially the claim regarding David Duke that "Studying his career over the last decade I never saw him harboring any racist sentiments against Africans or advocating anti-Semitism." Gamaliel (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

And what's so terrible about that claim to deserve a topic ban?! Please cite evidence to counter my claim. I can still cite many more evidences to back up my claim. Others have presented virtually non! And what a fair way of conducting an ANI discussion indeed! Rushing to topic ban regardless of any substantial evidences exchanged! I'm not here to cause trouble but work according to WP:NPOV and to minimize WP:BIAS. Is that what warrants such an aggressive measure against me?! I recommend allowing this discussion to proceed further in the mainspace talk pages. It is too early to judge! Strivingsoul (talk) 04:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I also tag an experienced muslim Wikipedian that I have worked with on Islam/Iran-related topics for arbitration. Some participants in this page seem to be more or less biased against me and the topic, and ignore my explanations. @Sa.vakilian:. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:43, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I come here due to Strivingsoul's request and do not want to participate in ideological or religious discussions. @Gamaliel:, As I know, we should judge about the users based on their activities not their ideas. Let's check whether Strivingsoul or Andres Feder have violated the wikipedia policies and guidelines or not. --Seyyed(t-c) 06:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

What does it matter that he is Muslim? The issue being discussed is your behavior, not your religion. Being Muslim isn't a justification for being disruptive.--Anders Feder (talk) 06:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Anders Feder! You are the one who instigated this whole mess to begin with! You've lumped together so many different issues in your first post that can not be properly addressed here with discernment. The last time I was also banned was also for a similar reason. An administrator rushed to take an unfinished talk-page dispute to ANI while I was still defending my case.

And the reason I brought up religion because as I explained earlier this dispute started out of we coming from diametrically opposed philosophical/political persuasions. You were strongly biased against Iran and Islamic topics hence I needed to counter some of your allegations with alternative information. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:39, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

So you are saying Sa.vakilian is in possesion of some "alternative information" that will vindicate views such as: "[Jews] are trying to weaken the dominant culture in America by moral subversion"?--Anders Feder (talk) 06:51, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

No! But probably compared to you who are driven with your anti-Muslim prejudices, he has the integrity to recognize that I was basically quoting a Jewish journal quoting Jewish porn-producers saying exactly that: Jewish involvement in porn, by this argument, is the result of an atavistic hatred of Christian authority. They are trying to weaken the dominant culture in America by moral subversion. Strivingsoul (talk) 07:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Why were you quoting it? What were you trying to show?--Anders Feder (talk) 07:04, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Please don't unnecessarily drag this any further! You can just scroll up some paragraphs or use Ctrl+F to locate where I quoted it and in which context and purpose. Strivingsoul (talk) 07:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

The purpose is clear, and Gamaliel's proposal was made in response to it.--Anders Feder (talk) 07:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

If you are interested in evidence for my alternative view here is one from Duke's official website: "In truth, as racism is defined, if you believe in mutual respect of all peoples, and you oppose the oppression of a people by another people, you are not racist, but actually anti-racist. The truth is that any race can practice racism, not only white people.". Strivingsoul (talk) 08:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Since you're so concerned about quotes being used out of context, just pointing out that you omitted The truth is that the real ultra-racists are those who control the media. The Zio Media demonizes whites and incites hatred in blacks toward whites and self-hatred in many whites toward themselves. They do this so they can divide and conquer and control us all. They especially hate whites and seek to demonize whites because they see the 60 percent of the white population as their biggest competitors for power, so they want to weaken and demoralize white people, and create a coalition against white people while they are the true masters of media, finance and government. from that quote. ‑ iridescent 08:18, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban "The best good will is for naught if a basic understanding of the facts, their mainstream interpretation and their cultural context are lacking." No ethnic group or nation should be subjected to editing this tone deaf. User:Fred Bauder Talk 06:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm quite familiar with basic policies and workings of Wikipedia. But the problem is this discussion has become too loaded with various disputes. If it was not for Anders Feder extreme opinions and his taking so many different issues to ANI, I would have been proceeding in relevant talk pages to discuss and settle the disputes with other involved Wikipedians. And I can see you yourself admitted that Anders Feder's behavior was crucial for instigating this whole unnecessary controversies. Let's us just discuss and settle the disputes in relevant talk pages. I understand this thread has already become very exhausting and hard to judge so many disagreements. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:39, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

People can have a look at my recent useful contributions to Houthis to get an idea of my good understanding of Wikipedia policies. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

"Death to America, death to Israel, damnation to the Jews." is not ambiguous. See your edit here. User:Fred Bauder Talk 07:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Don't cover up the full facts! Why do you need to cite out of context and ignore alternative POVs already covered in that page which reject the literal interpretation of that slogan?! Strivingsoul (talk) 07:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support community ban, will accept topic ban from any content relating to Jews or Judaism as a start if necessary - Per [35], [36], and his repeated bigotry throughout this thread. StrivingSoul is either incapable of understanding what antisemitism is, or is here to push an antisemitic POV. Either way, his presence is a net loss to the site. He's repeatedly been told that that's unacceptable, and it's time we show it. Ian.thomson (talk) 07:35, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

It is you who doesn't understand what anti-Semitism is! Please stop pushing for your accusations and have a look at Criticism of the Israeli government#Objections to characterizing criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism! Considering our unresolved dispute here, you are by no means an impartial arbitrator! Anders Feder has only canvassed biased users against me to corner me by completely ignoring any of the extensive explanations I have offered so far, and repeating baseless accusations! Strivingsoul (talk) 07:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

You'll find that most users on this site are similarly "biased" against antisemitism or any other sort of bigotry. There is a huge difference between criticizing the policies of the Israeli government (something Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, does fairly often) and pretending that a known neo-Nazi is somehow not a bigot. If you can't tell the difference, you don't belong here. That dispute was resolved, and everyone found that you were wrong. The only thing that was left unresolved was that we failed to block you as a troll for pretending that a man who headed an organization dedicated to violence against blacks and Jews is somehow a spokesperson for tolerance. When you said that you never saw any evidence of racism on his part, you were lying either to us (as a troll) or to yourself (as a bigot). Either behavior does not belong here. Ian.thomson (talk) 08:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

That's not true! Did you honestly read my explanations for example when I said: I did not mean he has not been a White supremacist. But from studying his recent interviews, articles and books over the last decade that are available, it is clear that he no longer advocates white supremacy. Furthermore, I linked evidences that he openly rejects racism in his statements over the last two decades. My argument is that the charge of racism is true only for the period that he was involved with KKK in 1970s. But at least for the last two decades he does no longer harbor racism against any group. And I have already provided sufficient evidences to back this up if only you care to study them! The problem is this dispute should've been resolved in the book's talk page and not dragged here. This whole controversy started from a disagreement on reliability of Iranian sources. Completely irrelevant to the accusations you posed here. Strivingsoul (talk) 08:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not like your efforts to bog down constructive editing in rants regarding how mainstream sources are controlled by the Rothschild family, the British queen, etc. are any more helpful to the project than your defense of the views of David Duke.--Anders Feder (talk) 10:54, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Don't twist, generalize, falsify, lie! Have some shame! Produce evidence, context and link for anything you attribute to me next time! Strivingsoul (talk) 02:59, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef. WP:NPOV doesn't mean being obliged to give every racist crackpot theorist equal airtime to mainstream views, and given the responses in this thread, this editor is never going to understand that. ‑ iridescent 08:21, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support indef. per above. — Ched :  ?  08:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Let's just halt this mess for a second, Users here drop in and are simply provoked by the gross appearance of the charges against me and ignore my extensive explanations. But this whole accusatory mess against me started when Aders Feder dragged a dispute over reliability of Iranian sources to ANI and lumped it together with many other unresolved issues in the past such as the dispute over neutrality of David Duke book' analysis to condition the users against me. I should make it clear that I do not advocate anti-Semitism but it is vital to allow legitimate criticism of Israeli government or Jewish pornographers from a Christian point of view such as that of David Duke to be properly represented in the articles as per WP:NPOV, and we can resolve and decide this in the relevant talk pages as I had once attempted here: Talk:Jewish Supremacism: My Awakening to the Jewish Question. This has really become an unnecessary loaded fuss and unfair accusation game against me over so many unresolved issues. Let's us just proceed to settle them in the long run. I apologize for my part for indirectly having contributed to this controversy but like I said I was not the one who started this but Anders Feder! Strivingsoul (talk) 08:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

No one are "ignoring your extensive explanations". They read your extensive explanations and conclude that they amount to nothing.--Anders Feder (talk) 08:40, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is not "ignoring your extensive explanations". Your "extensive explanations" are predicated on the assumption that the ultra-marginal views of David Duke are mainstream enough that NPOV mandates they be discussed. For anyone unfamiliar with David Duke, just reading his official homepage should speak for itself. ‑ iridescent 08:46, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

What if those "ultra marginal" views such as ones expressed in his book are exhaustively backed up by +600 scholarly references?! I think WP:BIAS warrants fair representation of his views especially when they are properly backed up. His views are also not ultra-marginal and not even quite marginal! There are many left-wing, right-wing and even Jewish critiques who concur with many of his points in regards with Zionism. Example: Noam Chomsky, Israel Shahak, Robert Faurisson, Norman Finkelstein and Neturei Karta. There are also many Christian Conservatives and Palocoservatives who might not be as outspoken or well-known as him but still share his views on emigration and/or defending Christian values against liberal/Jewish cultural war. Examples E. Michael Jones, Neal Gabler, Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan and more. Strivingsoul (talk) 09:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef, or ban (although that seems unnecessary), or topic ban (although that would probably just move the advocacy elsewhere). Supporting Duke is one type of problem, but making the statement quoted above indicates a much deeper issue because editors have to be sufficiently competent to understand basics, particularly when engaging in these areas. Johnuniq (talk) 10:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support siteban (first preference) or topic ban (second choice). Among the things Wikipedia does not need, unashamed apologists for white supremacism and antisemitism must surely rank near the top. Guy (Help!) 12:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support Whatever has the greater consensus. Although topic ban should really be attempted first. Reason: RE David Duke, sheesh. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:16, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support I was waiting till I saw their responses to me from last night before I proposed a siteban myself. Now that I see them this morning. Just... wow. David Duke and the word "scholarly" in the same sentence? There is nothing good that's going to come from Strivingsoul's continued presence here. Capeo (talk) 12:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

You just like pretty much everyone else in this page, have no idea about Duke beyond than ADL/Zionist propaganda or his past KKK association back in 1970s! You don't even know the guy has a Phd in history! You have not read his scholarly book that contains 600+ references! So you just jump in the bandwagon to spew out "Ban ban ban ban!" You seem so biased and misinformed about this man that you apparently even can't believe your eyes when looking at several pieces of evidences that I have offered in my lengthy discussions! ### for everyone else supporting "ban ban ban ban"! Strivingsoul (talk) 14:34, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

You're really not helping your case with your continued insinuations about Zionist propaganda. In any case, people with advanced degrees and published books can still be bigots. One only needs to look at David Duke's website to realize that while he's shied away from the overt bigotry of his KKK days, he still harbors a lot of the same feelings towards Jews. clpo13_(talk) 15:01, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

David Duke got his "Ph.D" from a Ukrainian diploma mill know for its for virulent anti-antisemitism. They handed it to them because he supports their views. He's not a scholar and his book's supposed scholarly references are quote-mined bullshit taken out of context. He's never published in any journals, never cited by actual scholars and is a complete joke. Not to mention he went to jail for bilking his followers. Your "evidence" is, again, quote mined bullshit that in no way examines the context of the quotes and tries to paint said quotes as speaking for an entire people. It's disingenuous trickery used by people with no argument. Can we just ban this person at this point? Anyone seriously arguing that Duke meets reliability criteria or is a scholarly source lacks the competence to edit here. They're here to push their POV and that's it. Capeo (talk) 15:23, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

"Known for its virulent anti-Semitism" Yes! Dare to criticize Zionist genocidal policies or point out things like atheist Jewish pornographers' self-declared agenda of weakening Christianity by moral subversion, or US unconditional support for Israel's occupational apartheid, and then be branded as "anti-Semite" by ADL's Stalinist thought policing, to the point of even making the absurd claim of Self-hating Jew for decent Jews who point out the same injustices by their fellow tribesmen! And my evidences prove that there are perfectly legitimate grounds in David Duke's or (others', for that matter,) criticism of extremist, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian elements with Jewish background, unless you're advocating the view that once someone happens to come from a Jewish background, he or she somehow miraculously becomes infallible and should not be criticized for anything wrong! Strivingsoul (talk) 02:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose (community ban) While I agree with most of the above discussions about lack of competence regarding the David Duke and related issues, there is not enough evidence of Policy violations. Therefor, I think "topic ban" is enough to punish him and community ban is not justifiable. I wonder how the above comments are made in support of the proposal without trying to show how the editor has violated policies and which policies have been violated.​ The discussion, despite being full of hot comments, is not what an ANI discussion should be.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:18, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for some little sense! But about "lack of competence" what's that?! And the only policy that seems I have grossly, badly, awfully violated is ADL's political correctness!! But I didn't know that's part of Wikipedia policies, you know! Nobody even told me that! But maybe you can guide me to the relevant Wiki help page! Strivingsoul (talk) 14:38, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:CIR is enough. There need not be specific policy violations cited for the community to decide that an editor is a net negative to the project due to soapboxing, POV-pushing and overall lack of a clue. Capeo (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support community ban. This editor, while making a few constructive edits, has engaged in repeated disruption that results in a net negative for the project. Mamyles (talk) 14:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Net negative indeed! I had planned to work on multiple Iran/Shia/Islam-related topics and help other Farsi-speaking editors with English language! But apparently the net negative is really worth it for God forbid disagreeing with ADL or Zionist political narrative! It's you know such an irredeemable crime against humanity! Strivingsoul (talk) 15:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on anything relating to Jews or Judaism. His continued assertions that David Duke's reputation is merely the result of the "ADL or Zionist political narrative" indicate an unwillingness to be neutral when it comes to this topic. With regards to policy violations elsewhere, I'm not convinced this editor is enough of a problem to justify a complete community ban. clpo13_(talk) 15:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

"Merely a result of..." when did I say that?! I already admit that Duke deserves criticism for his past association with KKK! But that's not justification to brand him as anti-Semite for criticizing the grotesque crimes of the Zionist state, or the influence of Zionist lobby on US foreign policy, or atheist Jewish pornographers that have vowed to subvert Christian culture in American by promoting moral degeneracy! And it is interesting you talk about neutrality but support ADL's biased review of his book to be cited as fact! Strivingsoul (talk) 02:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Ad it is interesting you talk about neutrality but support ADL's biased review of his book to be cited as facts! Please show me where I did or said anything of the sort. clpo13_(talk) 03:17, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:STOPDIGGING. Support topic ban at least, as per Onel5969. GAB^Hello! 01:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support site ban. The David Duke comments seem to reflect a deeper inability to look at sources/issues and be able to discern propaganda/conspiracy from actuality and that is a massive competence issue. The "... Zionist political narrative!" bit does it for me Jbh^Talk 15:38, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban as per Gamaliel's nomination. Editor's continued responses to each vote only confirms the underlying assumption which prompted the ban suggestion. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban per nom; nothing more to be said. BMK (talk) 23:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban -- WP:COMPETENCE, complete cluelessness, quite possibly being a troll ("Atheist Jewish pornographers that have vowed to subvert Christian culture" -- how tired), etc etc. EEng (talk) 02:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The most laughable part about that, which shows how incapable this editor Strivingsoul is at parsing sources in an unbiased manner, is that they are using this quote mine: Jewish involvement in porn, by this argument, is the result of an atavistic hatred of Christian authority. They are trying to weaken the dominant culture in America by moral subversion to justify the statement. The quote is from an essay exploring historical and current Jewish participation in the US porn industry. The essay, as should be clearly obvious through "by this argument", puts forth multiple arguments to explain said involvement but of course this editor settles only on the one that supports his Zionist-conspiracy-to-ruin-everything theory. Capeo (talk) 14:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The most laughable part is that you are quoting selectively to obscure what that article definitely suggests. So here's a veritable testimony: Al Goldstein, the publisher of Screw, said, ‘The only reason that Jews are in pornography is that we think that Christ sucks. Catholicism sucks. We don’t believe in authoritarianism.’ Pornography thus becomes a way of defiling Christian culture and, as it penetrates to the very heart of the American mainstream (and is no doubt consumed by those very same WASPs), its subversive character becomes more charged. Still more laughable (or maybe sad) part is your implication that even if some of these people were not promoting porn with that explicit purpose, that would somehow discount the heinous nature of their occupation and its inevitable harmful impact on the society. Strivingsoul (talk) 19:13, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Strivingsoul, since you're accusing me of discounting something that is immaterial to the point I'm going to respond to you though I said I wouldn't earlier. Again, your comprehension of the essay is lacking. "Pornography thus becomes", makes clear this is a presentation of yet another view, among many presented, that MAY contribute to the understanding of the historical participation of Jews in pornography. You seem not to comprehend that the essay makes no definitive statements and draws no conclusions but only points out what may be contributing factors. You are the one making definitive statements based on the authors hypotheticals and a quote from a Jewish porn producer and trying to paint all Jews with that broad brush as part of a conspiracy to destroy society. I note from your response below you've now moved your target from "Atheist Jews" to "Atheist/Liberal Jews". Well, though you've tried to paint me in a bad light, this Atheist/Liberal non-Jew isn't going to share his personal views about pornography with you as it has nothing to do with your inability to put a source in its proper context. Capeo (talk) 19:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm NOT and never been "painting all Jews as part of a conspiracy to destroy society" for that's just an unwarranted, unfair generalization! I already have much praise for many decent Jews who have spoken out against the criminality of the Zionist state or the vehement Zionist propaganda and cultural war against muslims and Christians. I have named some of these commendable Jewish personalities earlier above. Furthermore, it is useful for you to know that I personally come from a country where anti-Semitism is banned by state religious law and is home to the second largest Jewish community in the region. Jews have been living in Iran peacefully ever since the Islamic Revolution in Iran except for a very short-lived wave of emigration to Israel before Iranian revolutionary leaders had still the chance to publicly declare their acceptance and recognition of the Iranian Jewish minority. See: Persian Jews#Islamic Republic (1979–present). Strivingsoul (talk) 02:57, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Um, just for the record, could you modify your comments to make it a bit clearer who "this editor" is? I'd hate for anyone to mistakenly think you were talking about me. EEng (talk) 16:43, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

My apologies, EEng. I corrected the above to make clear I was referring to Strivingsoul. Capeo (talk) 17:33, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I realized that eventually, but for a minute I was trying to figure out how to reach through the internet and smack you a good one. Thanks for clarifying. EEng (talk) 17:36, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Lol. No problem. It was rather clumsy wording on my part. Capeo (talk) 17:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support site ban Just keeps digging. Irondome (talk) 02:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban. I see nothing to suggest Strivingsoul has any interest in following Wikipedia's principles, either in his contributions history or this very ANI thread. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban Racism is against Civility, without civility, Wikipedia would be a battleground of war and rage. As evidenced by his behaviour, I can tell that he wages frequent edit wars and does frequent personal attacks with anyone he opposes, especially Jews. I reckon that a topic ban would not stop this carnage, as one day, he could abuse us as well. A site ban should be more appropriate for him. Support per above. DSCrowned^(talk) 10:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Racism is of course abhorrently uncivil! But even more uncivil is to vilify someone as racist for pointing out things like, the widely recognized racism of the Zionist state, or its hideous oppressive policies or promotion of grotesque moral depravity by Atheist/liberal Jews, or, as also basically relevant to our work in Wikipedia, questioning reliability of a Jewish/Zionist partisan thought police organization such as ADL for presenting a book that criticizes that very partisan organization and its shameful practices! Sounds like racism indeed! Strivingsoul (talk) 19:03, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Can an admin close this? There is a very clear consensus for a topic ban at the very least. GAB^Hello! 20:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this is in dire need of a close. I personally see a clear consensus for a siteban but obviously that's up to the closing admin to judge. I would note that, in my view, a topic ban would be woefully insufficient. From all Strivingsoul's responses it would seem they'd need to be TBed from anything related to Judaism and Israel for sure but they also seem to use pointed descriptions of Jews in a context that implies they have an issue beyond just Jews. You'll note descriptions like "gay Jew", "atheist Jew", and "atheist/liberal Jew" where the description is completely unnecessary unless the intent is to vilify homosexuals, atheists and liberals as well. Capeo (talk) 22:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Ironically, when you actually read the source used for advocating beaming hedonist and degenerate Hollywood productions by a gay Jewish director into Iran in order to corrupt Iranian youths, the hedonist and degenerate Hollywood production in question turns out to be that hotbed of depravity, Beverley Hills 90210. ‑ iridescent 22:21, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

To be fair I'd be ready to revolt if I were forced to watch "Beverly Hills 90210" ;) In fact if it were actually "hedonistic and degenerate" it might have been an interesting show. In all seriousness though, I don't think Strivingsoul's connecting "hedonistic and degenerate" to the producer being gay was unintentional. Capeo (talk) 22:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what qualifies as hedonism or degenerate in your mind, but to me as a human being and a muslim, a TV-series that features "Lying, cheating, stealing, seduction, betrayal, jealousy, greed, murder ... [by] wonderfully wicked people" produced by an "openly gay Jews" is pretty much evil incarnate, and is yet another confirmation for the Atheist-Jewish moral war against Muslims and Christians! Practicing Muslims and Christians (as well as practicing Jews for that matter) would also find it totally inappropriate for their families to watch a TV-series that portrays youth getting involved in things like alcoholism, pregnancy and AIDS. Strivingsoul (talk) 03:33, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Sooooooo.... can we close this now? We're at the point where the idiocy of Melrose Place is pretty much evil incarnate, and is yet another confirmation for the Atheist-Jewish moral war against Muslims and Christians! Capeo (talk) 04:03, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

I assume someone must come from a very terrible upbringing and a very dangerous worldview to question the evilness of "Lying, cheating, stealing, seduction, betrayal, jealousy, greed, murder ...". I think that also makes it clear why admins don't heed your relentless agitations, for attitudes of this sort have no place in making decisions in Wikipedia! Strivingsoul (talk) 04:17, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

And now we've moved onto personal attacks. I guess I've had a terrible upbringing because I'm able to separate a trite 90's melodrama from reality. Oh, and having the basic faith in humanity that they can do the same. Capeo (talk) 04:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

This is a fun thread, but we really should close. GAB^Hello! 22:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't know of a way to facilitate that though. An admin made the proposal and at least one has voted so there's definitely some admin eyes on this thread. Capeo (talk) 23:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't know but maybe that's because they don't see how it is fair and correct to ban a judicious Muslim user that defends his position by citing information and evidences against a majority that just advocate ban based on their preconceived biases. Maybe admins see how this is clearly a case of someone being the most hard hit by Wikipedia systematic bias. Strivingsoul (talk) 03:33, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support site ban. A topic ban is not enough to stop the feuding, personal attacks, and POV pushing. This user is not here to write an encyclopedia. I wish them well in their future pursuits. Viriditas (talk) 21:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Site Ban I don't think that this is going to turn around. I echo Viriditas and wish them well at other places. I'm certain the Farsi Wikipedia could use their help.--Adam in MO Talk 02:10, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support siteban - Why is this still open? I don't understand how anyone can read this thread and not know for 100% certain that this editor is not here to benefit the project, and/or able to do so. Please close and institute the site ban. Dave Dial (talk) 05:05, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: I tried to read this rather long thread and also paid attention to the comments by participants. To me, some of them think we have a voting process here and almost few of them could say according to which policy and diff they thought he should be banned and why they are supporting a proposal which is based on an "essay" having "no official status." However I do admit his committing in edit warring for example here where I warned both sides (Shazaami was enclosed to be a sock-puppet). Please note that, accepting or denying Anti-semetism (or any other things such as Flat Earth) by editors is up to them and we can't punish them for having a particular belief, unless they try to push their wp:pov. Also, consider that "editing a POV in an article that corresponds with one's own personal beliefs is not necessarily POV-pushing," and POV-Pushing "generally does not apply to talk page discussions." Mhhossein (talk) 05:22, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• My two cents Since there has been so many votes for "site ban" my vote wouldn't count either way, as such, I'm offering my two cents. I'm the one who figured out and got Shazaami blocked as sockpuppet[37] I must say Mhhossein is a great editor, as he has plenty of barnstars on his userpage. That said, Mhhossein and Strivingsoul have very similar userpage (except no barnstars on Strivingsoul's user page yet). Yet Strivingsoul's userpage was nominated for deletion. Mhhossein and Strivingsoul have very similar beliefs, editing pattern and often supports each other during conflicts. That said, why is Strivingsoul always being targeted negatively? Mhhossein is getting praised, as evidenced by the barnstars on his userpage--Ankhsoprah2 (talk) 06:05, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm being targeted for Anders Feder's continued unnecessary agitations against me as you can see in this case as well. He tries to frame Muslim editors by appealing to the cultural and political biases of mainstream Wikipedians. He had also tried the same thing against Mhhossein in the past but miserably failed to the point of getting WP:BOOMERANG. I also hope he fails this time too. And I wish he is willing to drop or at least moderate his extreme biases against us who are making positive contributions to Wikipedia on one of the most underrepresented civilizational areas. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:41, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

From what I can see, the only real similarities between the two users is that they are Muslim, edit in areas concerning middle eastern politics, and possibly share some broadly similar political views. Those are not the reasons why people are suggesting that Strivingsoul be blocked. While I've only made a cursory glance through Mhhossein's contributions, even if he does things I would not recommend, he seems to understand that one does not misquote figures neo-Nazi conspiracy fantasies as if they are facts. Editors are welcome to believe whatever they want outside the site -- but attempting to change article content based on those beliefs (especially ones as delusional as David Duke's) is unacceptable per WP:NPOV and WP:NOTSOAPBOX. StrivingSoul still does not understand that that is a problem.

Also, the barnstars themselves are not protection, but the actions Mhhossein took to earn his barnstars does protect him somewhat. His contributions appear to be overall positive and useful. StrivingSoul has been problematic from the beginning. Ian.thomson (talk) 08:24, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Digvijay411 biased editing

This user is biased towards pages such as Karanvir Bohra and even Surbhi Jyoti - they keep on adding trivial information which has been removed by other editors, get angry with users when they remove information from those page, and revert those edits, he/she is biased against pages such as Karan Singh Grover and gets information removed from the page by contacting editors such as User_talk:TheRedPenOfDoom or by directly doing so themselves, their biased editing ways is evident through this page [[38]]103.12.211.188 (talk) 10:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you used the wrong link; the link you posted goes to that user's entire contributions listing—but if that is what you intended to do, well, you have to give a much more specific example than that. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

ok give me sometime, I will show you specific examples soon, regards103.250.184.45 (talk) 04:58, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I would also suggest that you register an account because having the same user posting from different IP addresses becomes rather confusing to other users. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 23:43, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello it is me! Made a username, I will show you proof soon, sorry I am busy with assignments currently, regardsA-wednesday (talk) 09:36, 8 October 2015 (UTC) Hello check out this page, it is a history page of the page Karanvir Bohra, u can check how all the editors are constantly trying to remove fluff from the page, but the user digvijay continues to add information and does disruptive editing, and then I'll show you other pages. [[39]]A-wednesday (talk) and here is a specific example [[40]], there are lots of disruptive edits made by the editor on that page if this is not proof enough, let me know, funnily enough the same user ends up removing content from other pages, while continues to add fluff to this pageA-wednesday (talk) 14:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Kwamikagami

Kwamikagami (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been mass moving pages and then editing the resulting redirect page to block non-admins from moving those pages back. See here [41] for example, where he moved a page away from the common name despite two previous failed move requests (1 and 2). Given this user's history, which includes a block this March for similar undiscussed and disruptive page moves [42] (see also the archived thread) and being desysopped for move warring, I would hope the community would take some sort of corrective action. Calidum 00:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I edited the pages because they had the wrong tag on them. Wasn't aware of the previous move requests, but that's just for one page. The others go into tedious detail about how the name of the article is incorrect. And the Japanese one is mistranslated. Easier just to use the correct name to begin with, and note the others. — kwami (talk) 00:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

"Wasn't aware of the previous move requests". Odd, considering you participated in the last one in 2011. oknazevad (talk) 00:23, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I doubt anyone remembers every move discussion they've participated in for the last four years. That being said, Kwami needs to be more careful with regards to consensus of page moves particularly in light of the warning in March. I can't recommend a ban based on one recent example though so unless there are multiple recent problems of controversial moves, I couldn't support much more than a whaling and a reminder that we don't have deadlines. Wugapodes (talk) 01:01, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • He moved several other pages as well, which can be seen in his contributions. I only gave that one example because it's a topic I feel editors would be more familiar with and because the two previous move requests. While he may not remember participating in a past discussion at that page, WP:RM#TR says not to move any page as "uncontroversial" if there were any past discussions about the name, which to me means an editor should make sure there were no such discussions. If Kwami were a new user with no baggage, I'd be less concerned about his actions. He's not, however, and that's why I took this issue here. Calidum 01:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Looking through them I didn't see any that were, on their face, as controversial as the example you listed, ie, none seemed to have old move requests. None are clearly outside policy—just imprudent, but an admonition of "be more prudent" doesn't seem satisfactory, particularly in light of the March discussion. I see a ban as too much, but a warning as too little, so I will continue to refrain from a course of action until there's further discussion. Wugapodes (talk) 02:04, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Suggestion Kwami, would you consider a self-imposed restriction not to move pages at least for a while? Less drama all around. Darx9url (talk) 03:44, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I can do that, though I move redirects as an easy way to cover variant spellings, and I know there are people who would insist those should count as page moves. The main problem comes from the hundreds of moves I make that no-one has any problem with. I've seen discussion take three months even when no-one objects to a move. That's the main reason I just move the article -- if someone objects it can always be moved back and we save months of tedium. — kwami (talk) 04:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

If the concern is variant spellings and alternate names, I would recommend just creating the redirects as a new page. Otherwise there's too much potential for conflict and drama. And I'd also recommend double checking the article's talk page for any page move, in line with WP:BEFORE (which is about AFD, but is good guidance for any major article change, such as title changes). Saves everyone possible headaches. oknazevad (talk) 15:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I should check TALK. That's good advice. But as for creating a new page for every redirect, languages will sometimes have a dozen common alt names and spellings, and creating a dozen new pages for each of a dozen new language articles is a time-consuming pain in the ass. Much more efficient to create one and then move it to the others. And since there's no talk page, there's no worry about BEFORE. — kwami (talk) 18:51, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

It's really poor form to move a page without need. It creates all sorts of potential double redirect issues (are you manually fixing them, or letting a bot do the work?) and it's actually more of a pain in the ass (in my view) to do that instead of just copying and pasting the same #REDIRECT [[target page]] code over as many times as needed. Moving pages takes a lot more resources and should be avoided. I just don't see how that's a beneficial method for accomplishing your goals. oknazevad (talk) 21:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I find it highly problematic that Kwamikagami considers discussion with other editors to be "tedium", that he thinks that he should be able to decide by himself that a title is "incorrect", and that he thinks that recommendations to do things carefully are a "time consuming pain in the ass". These statements imply that this editor thinks that he is superior to the broader Wikipedia community, and ought to be exempt from its input, and from consensus. If other editors think that I have misread the meaning of these comments, please let me know. I will reconsider. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:28, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't find it tedious to have substantive discussions. But it is tedious to spend three months discussing a page move when everyone agrees it should be moved. Why should uncontroversial edits get mired in red tape? If you love bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, good for you, but don't push it on the rest of us. And again, if I move a page and people don't like it, we can move it back. Why shouldn't BOLD apply to page moves? — kwami (talk) 19:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Page-move ban

Propose a page-move ban on Kwamikagami. Even after blocks and a desysopping for pagemoving, he doesn't get it and insists on having his own way. His extensive block log is making him look more and more WP:NOTHERE disruptive. I think he needs a ban on page moves, violation of which should result in a block. If he wants to prove that he is WP:HERE to build an encyclopedia, he can edit constructively (and collaboratively) rather than moving pages. Softlavender (talk) 07:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC): edited Softlavender (talk) 00:51, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• • Let's look at my "extensive" block log. During the past two years I was blocked once in error; I was blocked once to catch my attention to something or other, not actually to be blocked; and just recently I was blocked for a spurious rational that everyone commenting opposed, and where the blocking admin didn't respond to people's objections. — kwami (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support, as proposer. Softlavender (talk) 07:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support, his explanation for editing the redirect doesnt fly with me. Its obviously a blocking attempt to prevent a reversion. Were Kwami a less experienced user this might have been reasonable. Kwami however knows exactly what they are doing when they move pages. Thats why they have been sanctioned for it previously.Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose, I've had my share of disagreements with Kwami, but anything that is based on WP:NOTHERE in relation to his contributions is not something that one should get behind. —SpacemanSpiff 13:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The proposal is based on his continuously disruptive page moves (the complaint of the filer and others), which have already warranted a desysop and a block. There needs to be some further action taken; it seems a page-move ban would be a workable solution. He can always file a WP:RM if he desires a move. Softlavender (talk) 13:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support. In addition to the problems mentioned above, there is also this episode of move warring described at Talk:Tagalog_language#Move_wars, where Kwami twice moved a page in spite of a move request to the contrary just days before. Quite frankly, he cannot be trusted with the ability to move pages. Calidum 18:22, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Softlavender, you are misrepresenting the situation. I was not desysopped for pagemoving. I was desysopped, or at least deserved to be desysopped, in the words of one admin, because I did not take a complaint seriously. The issue at hand was a move request (by someone else, on a page I had not edited) that resulted in a consensus to move. The RfM was closed as 'move', and the closing admin moved the page. One person disliked it and reverted. People complained, and as the consensus was clearly for 'move' with the reverter alone in opposition, I moved the page back. But in doing so I violated a technicality: I was only able to restore the page to its consensus location because I was an admin, though I didn't know that at the time. (There's no warning that a move you are about to make can only be made because you're an admin.) Thus I was technically guilty of wheel-warring -- though, I should add, the page was still at the consensus location where I moved it a year later and probably is still there today. The person who reverted the consensus move complained. I responded, but then didn't keep the discussion under watch because I thought it was too trivial to be an actionable issue. After all, a single move, one that the community and a RfM agreed on, is hardly a disruptive action. When I expressed shock a couple months later at being desysopped over a complaint that I had forgotten about, the admin said that I deserved to be desysopped because I hadn't taken it seriously. I find that ludicrous, but regardless, my enforcing a closed consensus as an admin is hardly comparable to moving a bunch of pages that 99% of the time no-one objects to. — kwami (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - A complete ban on page moves is too much. Although I too think it is better to just create a new page and copy/paste the redirect code, page moving is just his technique for redirecting alternate names. If you don't agree with it then have a policy or guideline written. Otherwise this would just hinder a productive editor. And as Kwamikagami has said above, "if [he] move[s] a page and people don't like it, we can move it back." ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 20:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Of course, it makes it much harder for regular users to move the page back after he edits the resulting redirect, as was the case here. Calidum 20:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

So why not just ask an admin to help, or go to ANI? Since it's reversing a BOLD move, there's no need to go through RfM. Simply revert and if I really feel it should be moved, I can start the RfM. If I move a hundred pages and one is objected to and reverted, then we've saved a *huge* amount of time compared to debating a hundred RfM's.

Question, since this is new since I was an admin: Aren't the tags on redirects supposed to indicate why the page exists? Alt capitalization, alt spelling, alt name, common misspelling, rd with page history to be preserved, rd that is a potential page split -- isn't it considered appropriate to use the appropriate tag? Because fixing the tag is what people seem to be most upset about. — kwami (talk) 22:18, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I've had several encountets with kwami, sometimes agreed and occasionally disagreed, but always found him polite and willing to discuss. I hace a hard time taking the 'not here' accusation seriously. Jeppiz (talk) 00:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Bot bug with User:lowercase sigmabot III

Notice on the page Talk:J._Robert_Oppenheimer that when the archiver ran it erased a section of the talk page which is no longer present anywhere in the archives. Prior to run [43] and after run [44]. Section discussing mesons disappeared and is no longer in the Talk page or its archive. I assume this is due to a bug? Klaun (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

For starters, this should really have been sent to Σ first as the operator. Now that we're here: looks like the archived discussion wound up on another archive page. The archiving template contains the field |archive=Talk:J. Robert Oppenheimer/Archive %(counter)d, thus the bot technically put it in the correct location; it seems it is not designed to follow redirects. — Earwig ^talk 03:34, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

User:lowercase sigmabot III page says to report problems here. If that is incorrect then perhaps that instruction should be corrected as well. I just noticed the problem and reported it. Klaun (talk) 13:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Ah, right—that's more for "oh crap, the bot's breaking everything, block it immediately!" moments than "I think the bot might have a bug". — Earwig ^talk 14:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Is it? Well, great! Next time I just won't say anything at all! Trying to figure out how to get something done on Wikipedia is about on par with navigating the Byzantine bureaucracy. Keep up the good work. Klaun (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@Klaun: Okay, let me clarify. Bots are created by individual users, so they are the only ones able to fix issues related to their operation. As admins, we can block bots that are dangerously broken (e.g. if the archiving bot was blanking everything), which is why that message directs you here for malfunctioning bots, but we can't fix the bugs themselves. Hence the only thing I can do if you report it here is tell Σ (which I did), but I can't fix anything myself. Please do not be discouraged from reporting issues, as your input is valuable. — Earwig ^talk 18:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The wording is at {{Emergency-bot-shutoff}} maybe it could be tweaked. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:21, 9 October 2015 (UTC).

Disruptive editing and page moves

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

NuYorkCity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor has been here for eight days, in which time he has made 16 page moves, all (as far as I can see) adding closing parentheses to article and article talk titles. There's also a smattering of disruptive / vandalism type edits elsewhere. I can't decide whether to go to SPI (seems possibly reminiscent of Tobias Conradi) or AIV, so I've plumped for here. GoldenRing (talk) 10:24, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: I think you need to warn them on their talk page before taking the issue to ANI, perhaps using the template {{subst:uw-disruptive1}}. Thanks, Rubbish computer 15:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

GoldenRing, you should probably provide diffs for the supposed vandalism, but as for the page moves, well, those do seem to be rather disruptive. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 23:34, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

From my brief look through, it seemed like every contribution from this account was vandalism. On a closer look I've found one or two that might be okay, but there are a considerable number that are introducing mis-spellings; admittedly they are almost all in this user's userspace. GoldenRing (talk) 19:38, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: I can't find any cases of "adding closing parentheses to article and article talk titles" - please give an example of this. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:12, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

GoldenRing may be misreading:

Coldry process ‎ (NuYorkCity moved page Coldry Process to Coldry process)

the closing parenthesis matches the opening one before NuYorkCity. In this case the removal of the capital P is probably correct.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC).

Boy, do I feel stupid. I learn again to take more care while jet-lagged... Probably best to close this and move along! Apologies to NuYorkCity and everyone who's wasted time on this. GoldenRing (talk) 09:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template:Corus Entertainment

I am requesting a ban for User:Spshu. This idiot has been nothing but disruptive, continually reversing edits despite them being at two levels of consensus. He has also been reversing edits at Disney XD (Canada).— Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcoPolo250 (talk • contribs) 14:32 (UTC) 7 October 2015

Please consider reading WP:BOOMERANG before continuing to personally attack your fellow users at this noticeboard. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

This is his second request at ANI over this template. In the original, he used a post by a banned user (Mdrnpndr) from the talk page that misused level of consensus concept and were no administrative action was taken. My response was that MarcoPolo indicated he did not care about sources which were in a embedded hidden comment ("Two, you indicate that you don't care one whit about sources with this edit summary: '...'Sources' be damned.)'") and that he has failed to join the discussion Template talk:Corus Entertainment#New structure except to comment on the thread, Template talk:Corus Entertainment#Consensus, that he swiped from Mdrnpndr in another thread used in that ANI report to say "I hate playing janitor. User:Spshu keeps messing things up. Ban him/her."

I have address Marco's objections in edit summary 18:20, 22 September 2015‎: "Nelvana is NOT a TV channel", changing "Cable TV/specialty channels" group name to "Cable TV divisions". He then reversed that with this edit summary: "Undid vandalism by Spshu" and today 'NELVANA. IS. NOT. A. CHANNEL."

I request a RfPP today in order to get him to join the discussion, which should have been evidently existed from my response to his previous ANI. How ever was turned down with direction to file at 3RR. Spshu (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Regarding, Disney XD, the general matter is level of sources, a primary source. ViperSnake changed it to "Television provider VMedia stated" to resolve the issue. Further edits have disconnected this and other source, forcing me to restore a correctly source version given the severity of the sourcing problem. Marco has reversed said restoration outright with no regard for the problem. Spshu (talk) 15:32, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Ivanvector in that MarcoPolo250 should watch out for the boomerang. But Marco, what exactly do you mean by "two levels of consensus"? WP:CONLEVEL doesn't refer to anything like that. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 23:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

It was what I stated about Mdrnpndr's post. He attempt to use IP reverts as a "level of consensus" ([[Template talk:Corus Entertainment#Consensus) to halt discussion (Template talk:Corus Entertainment#New structure) and label me as the disruptive/vandalizing editor despite have sources to support the changes. Spshu (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

New location for Cause of death vandal?

The Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Cause of death vandal usually operates from Leeds or Keighley in the UK, but two recent IPs from nearby Sale in the UK seem to be doing the same sort of stuff. Is it our old friend, or a new editor?

• 178.101.181.11 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 82.6.168.150 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

The Cause of death vandal was known to change infobox templates from specific ones such as musical artist to the most general one so that he could add missing parameters such as cause of death, spouse, etc. The new IP has done exactly that here and here with comedian infoboxes. Both of these Sale-based IPs are interested in UK politician bios, for instance they both touched the same biography, the second time changing the birth date away from that which is seen widely in the literature. Binksternet (talk) 19:28, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:BEANS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.176.58.121 (talk) 21:46, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure how WP:BEANS applies here... Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 23:20, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• But the IP was right on Edward Herrmann. Not a vandal edit. Drmies (talk) 00:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The cause of death vandal doesn't always vandalize articles. Bizarrely, he seems to freely mix vandalism, unconstructive edits, and constructive edits. I encountered him a few times back before the LTA report was written, and I remember being perplexed because he would change sourced data to obviously incorrect data in one edit, and then do more-or-less constructive, gnomish edits a few hours later. I don't pretend to understand why. Maybe he vandalizes when he's bored or doesn't like his homework assignment. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:50, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
• Geolocation for UK IP addresses should always be taken with a grain of salt, they almost never resolve to the location the person actually is aside from being in the UK. You have to use country based on behavioral evidence. Keegan (talk) 03:56, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
• What Keegan said ↑, correct as usual.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Reporting possible vandalism or bot error?

At Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory/Description/WikiProject Catholicism instead of a list of WP editors, there is this

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Major General Asmerom Gerezgiher was born in Gezalamza, Eritrea. He was a founding member of the Eritrean People's Liberation Front (EPLF) in 1977. Before founding that organization he had joined the Eritrean Liberation Front (ELF) in 1966

and more....

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History shows 08:27, 30 September 2015‎ Reports bot (talk | contribs)‎ . . (38,985 bytes) (+998)‎

At Reports bot, talk - it redirects to User talk:Harej instead of a bot talk page.

Help please! This is way beyond anything that I could fix with an easy Undo. Is this vandalism or a bot malfunction?

Regards (WP Catholicism member), JoeHebda (talk) 11:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

It was because of this edit -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 11:58, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

IPs substituting file deletion templates

Recently, some IPs have been substituting file deletion templates and then often changing the {{imbox}} style so that the border colour is incorrect. See discussions at User talk:71.3.142.187 and User talk:71.3.142.74. User talk:71.3.137.41 has now started with the same practice. The IP addresses look similar, so they could all belong to the same person. Not sure what to do here. It is inappropriate to substitute the templates and change how they look as other users are likely to overlook the deletion templates that way.

Note that a few of the files have since been deleted, so some of the substitutions are now only visible to admins. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:10, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this, Although I'm not sure what sort of input you want given that I only put the original tag on the images concerned, and made some reverts in good faith, I don't know why anyone would want to subst them. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:14, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't just the border colour. In the case of 71.3.142.187 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) they were also altering the wording, either to soften the message, remove certain phrases or sentences, or to negate part of the message. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:33, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I see that one of them also changed an FFD closure rationale (now reverted by User:Kelly). --Stefan2 (talk) 17:16, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppet creation bot?

If you look at the log for edit filter 527, you will see that somebody (or more likely, some bot) has been pumping out sockpuppet accounts for the past 24 hours. It gets in 6 at a time and then keeps trying unsuccessfully until someone (presumably) resets its IP and it does 6 more. I've blocked over 50 so far. The naming pattern is obvious. I've posted this at WP:SPI, but wanted to see if anyone here had any insights. NawlinWiki (talk) 14:02, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, NawlinWiki, I don't know where to look to see what's going on...can you provide a link to point me in the right direction? Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

[45]. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:20, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

We could set an EF to deny, as a temporary measure, more than 1, 2 or 3 account creations in a short period. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC).

Indeed with that naming pattern we can be even more robust. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:17, 9 October 2015 (UTC).

Threatening and discriminatory attitude from an editor

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I have been personally threatened by DaltonCastle, firstly by opening an [46] into sockpuppetry with no evidence and then harassing a moderator into divulging personal information about me despite there being no connection between myself and this other editor the user has been historically involved in conflicts with. Similarly, it has been insinuated that I have connections with a corrupt government simply for making edits attempting to prevent possible defamation, POV-pushing and serious breaches of Wikipedia's guidelines on a BLP this user created, while my (very modest and helpful) edits to this page are what seems to have set this user off on this tirade.

Using such mob-style threats to dissuade editors from making helpful edits has no place here and I find it deeply distressing that this occurs on Wikipedia. Furthermore, I feel increasingly discriminated against based on my nationality as this user appears to have personal antagonisms against people from Argentina. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

LOL! this is absurd. "set this user off on this tirade"?? "Personally threatened"???? I cant stress enough that this had nothing to do with you. Checkuser findings could have found information on any other editor. The admin said nothing on Wikipedia about what he found interesting. They also said nothing about it being related to you.

Remember when we both told each other to let the issue go? And you clearly have not. This is your last warning. Drag me through this again and Im reporting you for WP:Hounding. DaltonCastle (talk) 20:35, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, here is what the admin said that peaked my interest: "Frankly, I'm a bit confused when I trace the history of this case from its inception to the present, not just my own direct involvement, but that of other CheckUsers. I'm reluctant to say what confuses me, so I'll leave it at that." This refers to so much more than SegataSanshiro. Other users, CheckUsers, possibly other admins.. Its frustrating that SegataSanshiro did not see past this and assumed I had malicious intentions against him. DaltonCastle (talk) 20:41, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, if it's not about SegataSanshiro1, DaltonCastle, can you agree to give each other a lot of room, not follow each other's contributions and generally ignore each other from here on out? And by dropping the stick, that also means an end to bringing complaints about each other to noticeboards, article talk pages and user talk pages. This will only work if you both agree to put this SPI in the past and move on. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:01, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Done. DaltonCastle (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

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Harassment on user talk page

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I feel that an editor has been harassing me on my Talk page (see Ahmed Mohamed), following a revert I made of an edit of his [47]. Can I get any help regarding this? --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC) (The editor has been notified of this discussion [48]. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:24, 8 October 2015 (UTC))

It's standard practice for editors to drop a warning about active discretionary sanctions. This should not be seen as harassment as the DS warning templates can be somewhat confusing to use and every arbitration case that results in discretionary sanctions has its own template. MarkBernstein was acting in good faith when he attempted to notify you of the American Politics arbitration case. I'll go see if ArbCom levied DS's on that case. Blackmane (talk) 22:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I see that MarkBernstein was able to find the DS templates relating to American Politics. Extra comment DS warnings are given to editors who edit in topics where DS have been authorised. It's more of a friendly warning so you won't inadvertently violate the sanctions and get yourself into hot water. Blackmane (talk) 22:45, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks but this editor essentially admitted that his templating wasn't friendly, "OK, I was trying to be friendly and informal. As that’s apparently unwelcome, I'll just use the template."[49] --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Bob, I haven't looked at the whole picture and there may be a DE complaint in there somewhere, but with respect I don't see a harasssment grievance. Harassment generally implies a pattern beyond five user talk posts in two days, I think, and unfriendliness doesn't violate WP:CIVIL. It's also possible the posts have some merit, as I said I haven't looked further into it. If a few user talk posts tick you off, delete them, shrug them off, and move on. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it would be good for Wikipedia to condone the editor's behavior by not taking any official action. I'm not looking for some major disciplining, but just something official that lets the editor know that he did something wrong. For example, an administrator could redact the template-placing edits from the history of my Talk page, along with the administrator posting a message on that editor's Talk page. Note that on the template's page is the following,[50] "Alerts are a neutral courtesy; never use them to intimidate, coerce, or shame another editor."

Oh, I just noticed that this editor has a history of being blocked, including for "personal attacks or harassment".[51] --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The purpose was to prove you were aware of the sanctions. Their block log is not relevant. You are now aware of the sanctions. We are not going to redact them from the history because their purpose is to sit in the history as proof you are aware.

Your quote above trying to prove they were being unfriendly is silly. They tried to tell you in a less formal tone, you demanded formal evidence, you got the formal template. HighInBC 00:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

As a further point, MarkBernstein was obviously trying to follow the example set out in WP:DTTR as you have been here for a number of years. Templating is usually reserved for newer editors. MarkBernstein explicitly states that "One of these days, I've got to learn to use the templates" indicating that they are not familiar with the ArbCom templates. You then totally jumped the shark with a link to [{WP:HARASS]] when no harassment had occurred. No administrative action, let alone even a warning, is warranted in this case. You edited an article that fell within [WP:NEWBLPBAN] and [WP:ARBAP2], you were given standard notification concerning these two Arbitration Cases. This is a courtesy. Blackmane (talk) 01:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I think these are very poor responses, that frankly don't deserve more attention from me. I think you're doing Wikipedia a disservice. Anyhow, I've had enough of this. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:21, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated disruptions and extreme WP:NPA violations.

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User Gabby Merger seems to go after anyone who dares to challenge their WP:POV. I came across the user when they inserted fringe claims about The Exodus. PiCo and I objected to inserting these religious fringe claims, but the user edit warred actively to keep them in [52], [53], [54], [55]. I informed the user about WP:BRD and WP:3RR, encouraging them to use talk[56]. Even their first comment on talk was mainly a WP:NPA violation against PiCo [57] though mild compared to other attacks. This comment [58] was 100% directed at insulting me, with no intent to discuss the article. The user has a very long history of personal attacks against any user who dares to cross them. Some examples, most of them dating back less than an hour.

• I'll follow you around and second-guess everything you do, and see how you like it (you definitely won't, and I definitely will...sauce for the goose [59] (Against Jeffro77).
• You seem to many times get arrogant, disingenuous, uncivil, jerky, rude, dishonest, unfair, and selective in your analysis. [60] (Against BlackCab).
• don't puke any more rude idiocy to me again [61] (Against BlackCab).
• Check your own demented and obsessed rude and arrogant goofy self, sonny. [62] (Against BlackCab).
• I'll be very apt in showing your hypocrisy, assuming bad faith, whines, ignorance, disrespect, disregard, and general incivility and bloviating. [63] (Against me)
• You have zero credibility therefore, and are irrelevant yourself. [64] (Against BlackCab, though on my talk).
• I stay away from blackcab because he's a toxic and venomous and extremely uncivil [65] Against BlackCab, on my talk).
• you're childish and biased [66]) (Against me)
• BlackCab neurotically decided to chime in bad-faith garbage here...like a stalker and troll. [67] Against BlackCab, on my talk).
• He has glaring double standards and incivility and bad faith attitudes and violations. (Against me).

Again, I'm sure there are many more examples if one checks, this long is just what I've seen in the last hours, mainly on my own talk and what BlackCap informed me about. Looking at these quotes from Gabby Merger, I think they make a very convincing case that the user is repeatedly violating WP:NPA and is WP:NOTHERE to contribute. Jeppiz (talk) 22:27, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Jezz has been on the article talk page, accusing and insulting. Also what do you think about this? Something no one else that I ever encountered on Wikipedia in my life. Jezz actually removed whole chunks of sentences from my comment on the Talk page, that he didn't like said about him, which was in response to insulting stuff he wrote about ME on the very same talk page. He undid part of my comment on the talk page. In total violation of Wikipedia guidelines. So he can write disrespectful negative things about someone on a talk page, accusing and abusing, but God forbid someone responds and says anything negative about him??!! He has glaring double standards and incivility and bad faith attitudes and violations. (And yes, wrongly putting additional jabs on my own talk page, beyond just a "3RR warning". But a hypocritical "I'll report you if you say not nice things about my on the article talk page" comment, though he has said VERY insulting things about me on the article talk page. Can dish out but can't take it. I do NOT have this same issue with the Doug Weller and the other contributor there, you'll notice.) But he removed whole sentences of my comment on the talk page, that he didn't like. Unbelievable. He has glaring double standards and incivility and bad faith attitudes and violations. (Also, I am careful not to violate 3RR.m And I've been discussing copiously, and this editor says I have ignored "Bold Revert Discuss" when that's all I've been doing for hours.) Please check out the stuff on the article TALK page. Not just edits and edit comments. Thanks. Regards.... Gabby Merger (talk) 22:29, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I did undo one comment by Gabby Merger on talk, as per WP:SOAP and WP:NPA as it was exclusively about me, not a word about the article of how to improve it. If an admin feels the comment belongs, they are of course free to reinstate it. Jeppiz (talk) 22:32, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possible legal threat

Is this a legal threat? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:13, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't cross the line in my opinion, as it requires assuming facts not in evidence. I would hate to see such a lawsuit, too. ―Mandruss ☎

I think if you look at the comment in context, Mandruss, things are a little murkier. The account making that comment is almost certainly a shill for Atlantic International University, which gives the comment a whole, "would be a shame if something happened to this nice little website of yours", sort of vibe. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I read it the same way Someguy did(It would be a shame...) I think it is meant to have a chilling effect and adversely effects our neutral point of view. HighInBC 00:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't doubt the motive, I'm just unclear as to how explicit a threat has to be. If we consider context, I sit corrected. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Given the link provided by Mandruss DrFleischman and this post it is clear this person is trying to use the law as a tool of intimidation to adversely effect our neutral point of view. I have blocked for legal threats on that basis.

If they agree not to argue content disputes with legal "warnings" I will gladly consider the block to be no longer preventative and reverse it. I am happy for a review of this block an will abide by whatever consensus decides. HighInBC 00:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

For clarity, I think you meant the link provided by Dr. Fleischman. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:36, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I looked at the wrong sig. HighInBC 00:38, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• Good block Both diffs (the signature on the second) meet WP:NLT. Miniapolis 23:29, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Prague astronomical clock

Prague astronomical clock is (one of) today's Google Doodles. It attracted me to that page, so a few eyes may be needed today. 220 of ^Borg 02:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Google Doodle in Australia, New Zealand, UK (and elsewhere) that is, but not USA, as I assumed, if anyone was wondering what I was talking about.[68]. 220 of ^Borg 02:16, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

User:LilDennie Wikipedia (talk - contribs)

Despite any warning and a block in September, after this report, this user continues to contribute in write-only, creating non notable pages deleted more times. Wuchoo Know was created 3 times in 4 days (please note: with no meaningful content), and few days after, he/she created Wuchoo Know (Nicki Minaj song), deleted in semptember and created again yesterday (see AFD page). Other creations include U Got What I Need, the nonsense Template:PIOTL, Black Friday: Kimmie Blanco Reloaded, Kimmie Blanco Reloaded. Other edits, few days ago, includes lots of rollbacked contribs (ex.: [69], [70], [71], [72] etc), and other. So, with more than 20 warning notices, 2 blocks (user is now blocked for a week), all ignored, he/she continues in write-only and, also after the 5th creation of "Wuchoo Know", it looks like clear vandalism, IMHO. I request an indef ban per WP:NOTHERE and persistent vandalism. Regards.--Dэя-Бøяg 03:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I would support an indef given the user's edit history. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 04:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I'd also support and indefinite ban, the user removed the AfD notice from Wuchoo Know (Nicki Minaj song) a total of six times (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 6) without even contributing to the discussion, even though they were appropriately warned each time. This, along with their hoax articles Black Friday: Kimmie Blanco Reloaded, Kimmie Blanco Reloaded shows that their not here to improve the site at all. Azealia911 _talk 13:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Wow! I didn't notice that there were also hoaxes. So, the intent looks like clear. --Dэя-Бøяg 15:22, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive interactions by User:MusicAngels

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MusicAngels (talk · contribs) is very disruptive in their interactions with other editors who disagree with them. I solicit the community's opinion what to do about this editor: possibly a community warning or ban, if that is possible, that prevents them from commenting on other editors; possibly a block, since their disruptive activity is still ongoing, with the latest example being today (Oct. 8).

Their most troublesome action is accusing editors who disagree with them of vandalism, trolling, and sockpuppetry; pursuing those accusations for weeks in multiple venues; and continuing to pursue them even after the allegations have been disproven. Other problematic actions include: removing other people's comments from article talk pages; telling IP editors they must register an account; misquoting Wikipedia policy to tell other users what to do or not to do; and making false statements. See details below.

Previous appearances at Wikipedia discussion boards:

• ANI, August 24, 2015 MA filed an ANI report against another editor, alleging "vandalism" because the other editor was removing links that MA added. The result was that MA was told the removals were not vandalism but valid cleanup, and they should have a civil discussion with the other user about it.
• Talk:AN, August 26 An IP user complained at WT:AN about MA's actions at articles created by MA, saying that they have "refused to allow editing, has labeled all editing vandalism, and disallowed any conversation." That discussion was never closed, but Bgwhite (talk · contribs) noted that despite being told at the previous ANI to stop battling over their content dispute with the other editor, MA continued adding the disputed links. User:Bgwhite also called attention to copyright problems identified at MA's articles by MusikAnimal (talk · contribs); those issues were seconded by other admins and eventually led to MA's articles being deleted.
• DRV, Septemer 3: After MA's article Poetry in the early 21st century was deleted for copyright violations, MA filed a DRV, claiming that the article had been deleted because of a "hoax" of "false copyright reports" made by a "disruptive IP hopping editor". (It looks to me as if the copyright problems had been discovered entirely by admins, including MusikAnimal and Bgwhite; see MA's talk page and the WT:AN report.) The consensus at the DRV was to endorse the deletion and reaffirm that the article had been a copyvio. Afterward, however, MA continued in other discussions to claim the deletion had been the result of a "hoax".[73] [74]
• ANEW, September 23: An IP reported MA to ANEW for edit warring; MA's response was to label the report a personal attack and imply socking by the complainer. Both users were warned and the page was full-protected.

Disruptive editing I have observed:

• Accusing and hounding other editors
  • I first became aware of MA when I was asked (by both the IP and MA) to look at MA's interaction with an IP editor whom MA was calling an IP-hopping troll. This was the user that had reported MA to WT:AN and to WP:ANEW. I discovered that MA kept re-adding that description, "IP-hopping troll accounts", to the IP's talk page after the IP removed it. MA re-added it four times by my count; see the history. I warned MA they were violating WP:NPA as well as WP:NOBAN and threatened to block them if they kept harassing the editor, and they stopped doing that. Meanwhile, still targeting that same IP user, MA launched a campaign to get a rangeblock against 192-range addresses and asked for a checkuser investigation and action from various admins: me, EdJohnston (talk · contribs), and SilkTork (talk · contribs). At EdJohnston's talk page, MA claimed that the 192 accounts were tracking MA's edits and accusing MA of things;[75] this turned out to be untrue. MA actually had been subjected to some trolling by accounts in the 128 range, and MA had worked with EdJohnston to try to get a block of that range. But a simple check of their contributions showed that the IPs on the 192-range list had no connection with each other; most of them had not edited in years. The IPs, except for the sole active editor on the list - the IP that MA had been targeting - also had no connection with MusicAngels. The evidence that this list was not a sockfarm was clearly laid out at EdJohnston's talk page. Ignoring that evidence, MA then took the list to a third admin, SilkTork, asking for a checkuser of the 192 range list and claiming again that it represented an IP-hopping troll.
  • Several editors have posted at my talk page, or at MA's talk page, saying they are afraid to edit any article where MA is involved because of MA's "seeking revenge long after anything happens that offends them", "vindictive editing", etc.

• Removing other people's comments from article talk pages: Discussed here (note that MusicAngel later changed the section heading from the original "STOP DELETING TALK" to "IP editor identified for vandalism by three separate bots"). The removals being talked about were at the now deleted page Talk:Poetry in the early 20th century; MA justified the removals on the grounds that they were from an IP and were not properly formatted.

• Trying to force IP editors to register an account. Example: [76], reprimanded by MusikAnimal [77]

• Misquoting Wikipedia policy to tell other users what to do or not to do
  • Ordering an IP editor to reveal their registered username, and telling them they must not edit until they did so; this was a direct violation of WP:LOGOUT. [78] [79] [80]
  • At the articles James D. Corrothers and Cordelia Ray, MA reverted a sourced addition, citing BRD and claiming that the person should have obtained consensus at the talk page before inserting it, which violates the principle of WP:BOLD.[81] [82] The other person offered sources at the talk page, but MA ignored the sources and did not discuss the content, instead continuing to insist that the other editor follow BRD, even while the other user actually WAS trying to discuss.

• Making false statements.
  • False edit summaries, such as a claim that re-adding the controversial link to their own article was "requested" or "had consensus with another editor", which was not true.[83] [84] [85]
  • The 192-range IP editor (the one MA kept calling an IP-hopping troll) said their address was the guest sign-in address of "a Maryland-area university".[86] MusicAngels told EdJohnston that the IP was from the University of Maryland.[87] Just a few hours later they said at my talk page that the IP was from Johns Hopkins.[88]

• Final straw as far as I am concerned: Today, October 8, MusicAngels posted a "who is it?" type comment on their own talk page, asking for help in identifying a couple of IP editors.[89] This looks like yet another attempt to "out" IP editors, even though WP policy on that subject had been explained to them several times. But what really brought me to the point of ANI: They posted the comment on October 8, but they falsified the timestamp to make it look as if they posted it on August 24! I had been waiting to see if they would learn from the various conversations and warnings they have received from multiple people. This last little act of deception, in connection with yet another attempt to "out" IP editors, convinced me that they have not learned anything and the community may need to step in. I do not wish to take any action myself because I could be considered WP:INVOLVED. --MelanieN (talk) 05:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Holy mackerel, that's a heck of a lot of disruptive and deceptive and against-policy behavior, and a heck of a lot of admin posts to their talk page, for an account not even 7 months old. I think this looks like a definite WP:NOTHERE block. Softlavender (talk) 05:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I'll have to agree with MelanieN's assessment, and that further action is necessary. I was not aware of the half of what has been presented above. I was under the impression the user suffered general incompetence and/or inability to get the point, but it looks like there's more behavioural concerns. The deceptive timestamp is baffling. I was trying to think of how a script might have malfunctioned but I can't come up with a good theory. MusicAngels anything to comment on that in particular? — MusikAnimal ^talk 06:02, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• Yikes. That looks bad, I would like to see the user give an account of xyrself, in the mean time I have blocked for disruptive editing. Guy (Help!) 10:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kim Davis

We have a recent RfC which I closed as providing clear support for one article on the ongoing Kentucky same-sex marriage brouhaha. We currently have:

• Kim Davis (county clerk) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Kentucky same-sex marriage license controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), for which I procedurally closed an AfD; this and the Davis article are effectively a pair of POV forks.
• Miller v. Davis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), the best of the three by a long shot in terms of Wikipedia standards

It's not clear if the lawsuit is covered by the RfC, I would argue that it is since it is all one event. There's a move debate underway at the Kim Davis article, aimed at settling the question of whether the merged article should be presented as a biography or as an article on the event. I am persuaded that the event is the right answer, as is Jimbo according to comments on his talk page, but there is a lot of passion here for keeping it as a bio, for whatever reason.

I think some additional admin eyes are needed, to guide the process. A history merge of the three (or at least the first two) might be appropriate. Guy (Help!) 10:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

A history merge would be highly inappropriate and confusing because there haven't been any cut-and-paste moves involved here. Graham87 14:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Respectfully, although I'm sure the admin corps appreciates the notification, I don't think there's any good that can come of having parallel discussions here and on the talk page. This is purely a content dispute, and not worth ANI's time at this point (we might get there, but not yet). May I suggest this thread be closed? I considered closing it myself but I'm involved to the extent that non-administrators can be. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:05, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not a "parallel discussion", it's exactly what it says it is: a call for more eyes. Tempers are frayed at the talk page, with a lot of people who don't like the RfC closure, trying to end-run round it. Guy (Help!) 17:07, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Just thinking of the inevitable revert war when consensus is finally enacted at whatever result it comes to. Guy (Help!) 17:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Of course, but we can't do anything about that now, and the proper venue is thataway. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Meh. I just want an end to this sordid little affair. We have three articles including a faux-biography all covering the same bit of bigotry. Only one of them is compliant with policy, as far as I can tell, and people have become way too invested in it. As expected, since it involves the unholy trinity of politics, religion and sexuality. Graham is right, though, it was a silly idea of mine. Guy (Help!) 18:05, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Guy, we appreciate that you were sincerely only trying to help. Our objection to your behavior is very simple: Unfortunately, you complicated a situation that for weeks we have actively been trying to simplify. You advanced a pet idea of your own that was out of scope to the one had been discussing. Almost no one was talking about the article Miller v. Davis. Yet you introduced it and promoted it as a possible and important viable option, totally without any consensus. Adding an additional option like that, where it did not exist as an option before, was how you complicated the situation. You see, when we !voted recently to have only one article, we meant: One article: Kim Davis (county clerk) (a heavily researched and heavily contributed-to article), or two articles: 1:Kim Davis (county clerk) and 2:Kentucky same-sex marriage license controversy (an article that had simply been copied directly from the Kim Davis article that then became neglected as the Kim Davis article grew, before it was deleted/merged/made no longer applicable this week). There was no third option. The issue you tried to help us with is settling the question of whether the heavily researched Kim Davis article should be presented as a biography or as an event. On this, you and I agree: I, too, am persuaded that an event article is the right answer. (Note: The other main involved editor, MrX, disagrees for some reason.) That is why I proposed the move from the biography article Kim Davis (county clerk) to an event article Kim Davis same-sex marriage license controversy. Then you came along and ruined everything, really, by trying to distract everyone from the open move discussion and to focus instead on a poll that you created that had the additional option. You shouldn't have done that. Miller v. Davis is an important article of course, but it has a different goal than the Kim Davis article (its goal is to present the story of the now-infamous court case; the goal of the Kim Davis article is either to present the story of her biography or to present the story of the controversy event). You should have facilitated what MrX and I, the involved editors, were trying to accomplish. I hope I explained this in a neutral and clear way. What do you have to say for yourself? Prhartcom (talk) 22:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

That phrase "what do you have to say for yourself" - I used to use that to my children when they were teenagers.

The consensus is for one article. That means, at the very least, a merger of the faux-biography and the article on the Kentucky same-sex marriage silliness. There's a third article, Miller v. Davis, that is vastly better than either. If you think that was not included in the scope of "RfC: Two articles or one? (Or three?)" then I venture to suggest you are wrong, but it is a question over which reasonable people may disagree. Reasonable people are, alas, in short supply with respect to this particular set of articles, hence of course the problem.

Step 1: decide on the correct title for the one article (per my discussion at the bottom). Step 2: Decide whether Miller v. Davis is part of the grand merger.

But first, Step 0: stop assuming that everybody who does not see things your way is evil, or that this is the single most pressing issue in the history of Wikipedia ever. I wanted to discuss this here not my talk page because it is complex and admin intervention is IMO long overdue. I checked my reading of the situation with Jimbo, since I know from long experience that biographies are something where he has a clear view and can see through the smoke to the real core issues - in short, I trust him (and I think he trusts me, from the exchanges we've had).

This is, make no mistake, a WP:BLP issue. There are many strong feelings in play. There are people with a visceral hatred for gay marriage, who consider Davis to be a martyr comparable to Rosa Parks. Others think she is a bigot and a hypocrite. Some have a deep religious conviction that homosexuality in any form is sinful. Others have an equally deep conviction that gay marriage is a human rights issue. Some of us know a former WMF employee and much beloved Wikipedian who is gay, married and a priest. We recognise that it's messy. We want to be fair to all concerned, even if it means being fair to a bigot. And that's what I have to say for myself. Guy (Help!) 22:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

In your retort above, you simply restated your position. I know your position; I had stated it to you, so that you would know that I know it. You didn't state my position or acknowledge anything that I said. This is teenager behavior (the way my own teenagers used to behave with me and other adults).

You may have missed the part about how much you and I agree on some important, key things.

I wonder if you would please close the move discussion soon for us? Prhartcom (talk) 01:07, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• The Kim Davis article was AfDed twice already in the past 40 days (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kim Davis (county clerk) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kim Davis (county clerk) (2nd nomination)) and both of the extensive debates resulted SNOW Keep (and a clear decision against merging into the litigation/controversy article[s]). We cannot override that, personal opinions and non-binding RfCs notwithstanding, without a third AfD. No matter who does what, the AfDs can't be overridden without a third AfD, which would be the second in less than a week. Softlavender (talk) 01:14, 10 October 2015 (UTC) Likewise, a WP:MERGE cannot be carried out via an RfC or a WP:RM. So the RfC is in itself meaningless, except possibly as a prelude for further AfDs or a WP:MERGE request (perhaps the two litigation articles should be merged via an official WP:MERGE request). Softlavender (talk) 01:20, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Violation of 1RR on Levant by Debresser

Here Debresser reverted my edit, re-instating a claim not supported by sources. Here the user removed the {{cn}} tag I placed on the unsupported claim. The two reverts happened within 40 minutes, on an article that clearly falls under WP:ARBPIA.

I pinged the user on the talk page and explained the problem with the content they restored, but got no response so far. “WarKosign” 10:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Hate to say it, but I agree with you, both edits inserted a fact with no sources that's in contention , at the very least between you and DeBresser, and on the first edit, he's basically saying it's common knowledge. Not a great move. KoshVorlon 16:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It's the Sabbath, so Dovid won't be able to reply until tomorrow evening, even if WarKoSign's complaint is correct.Nishidani (talk) 16:54, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Not addressing the matter of the real dispute itself, but might this not be better discussed at WP:AE,considering the existing sanctions? John Carter (talk) 17:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: WP:ARBPIA sanctions can be applied by "any uninvolved administrator", and I figured I can find a few of these here. WP:AE form is quite tedious to fill, the process there is quite slow and I do not know the user enough to decide that an AE case is needed. I just want someone to give Debresser an authoritative reminder that WP:RS and WP:1RR should not be ignored. “WarKosign” 19:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

@WarKosign:, I agree with you, and, actually, have, in past, made comments here on much the same basis. When I did so, I was told that it would be best to take the comments to AE by some of the administrators involved. And, if you look at some of the threads above, it can reasonably be argued that this requests on this page can take longer than requests at AE. I've tended to find that to be the case myself. John Carter (talk) 19:11, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Takis Fotopoulos

A few weeks ago, two editors were topic-banned from this article and all articles related to Inclusive Democracy. Since then, new editors have popped up that, like the now-topic-banned editors, resist any attempt to reduce the huge linkfarm in this article to even minor works/interviews/whatever of this person. The arguments are familiar ("undoing vandalism", "improving the article", this is done in other articles, too, etc). I just started editing there because of the huge COI/POV/promotional issues and, frankly, this is not even a subject that I am interested in. I'm worn out by the constant lack of AGF and the POV pushing and am removing this and related articles from my watchlist. Perhaps somebody else has more stamina than me. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 16:19, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Would WP:SPI be appropriate? If it's clear, then bans are in order. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

@Randykitty:, it would probably help others a lot if you indicated somewhere all the articles which count as related which you are removing from your watchlist, so that others can at least know what they are. John Carter (talk) 20:27, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't think of that: apart from the Fotopoulos article, it's Inclusive Democracy and Democracy & Nature. There may be other articles in this walled garden, but I think these are the most problematic ones. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 21:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring over an NPOV tag at Vani Hari

Someone want to do something about this? The problem seems to be about whether there are sufficient academic sources which specifically discount the claims of the subject to establish that they are counted as fringe or worse by the academic community, particularly as this is a BLP, or whether some of her claims are perhaps so far out that they don't receive specific contradiction because they are perhaps just that far out. John Carter (talk) 20:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The problem is Ronz, who has appeared out of nowhere and waded in with his usual absolute faith in his own correctness. If we counted tag-whining in the same way as blanking, he'd already be at 3RR.

This is a tricky article for NPOV, let alone its past off-wiki canvassing. However the current "issue" is a total non-event. Hari is quoted as, for once, stating a simple and uncontroversial fact - although using it to excuse a previous statement, judged as ignorant. This statement is neither fringe, nor challenged as to whether she actually made it (although you may choose whether to believe it as an excuse or not). There is no need for the tag, and no burning dramah to toast the marshmallows over. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:55, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Rakshak Singh repeatedly recreated

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The article Rakshak Singh keeps being recreated, and appears to be completely non-notable. Could someone please salt it to stop it and perhaps deal with the creator(s)? 82.35.107.31 (talk) 20:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Looks like it's been done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?action=view&page=Rakshak_Singh&type=protect Wildthing61476 (talk) 21:00, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so it has, thanks folks. 82.35.107.31 (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

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Akhil222

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Ever since their block, Akhil222 (talk · contribs) has been stubbornly posting unblock requests asking us to delete articles they've written and their user talk page, as well as invalid autoblock requests (not only are they directly blocked, they keep putting 127.0.0.1 in the IP field). I have multiple times attempted to point her to other Wikipediae since a language barrier is the biggest part of the equation, but they either cannot read what I'm saying or are refusing to listen to what I am saying. Since I don't see any way for the unblock requests or unreasonable deletion requests to stop (they blanked the user talk page only to post another invalid autoblock request immediately after, and have since tried to AfD their userpage) I'm requesting that their talk page access be revoked and a message left telling them, in as simple of terms as possible, to edit the Wikipedia for their native tongue. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

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my page is being maliciously edited

I would like to know how I can prevent anonymous users from changing correct information on my page and putting negative submissions in its place. This has been happening frequently and is not good for business. The last edit was Oct. 8th 2015 to the Killa Tay at wikipedia page. I can provide the proper info once again but everytime I do someone with a personal hats towards me goes on the page and replaces it with false and embarassing info. I am the real Killa Tay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB90:8088:F7D7:0:2F:BE7D:D701 (talk) 21:33, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Would you be willing to contact our volunteer response team? (We do not take the word of an IP editor as far as identity goes.) —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Which article? Guy (Help!) 22:55, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The page in question is presumably Killa Tay, which has been recently edited by unregistered editors and by registered editors (and has been nominated for deletion as not notable). My advice would be, first, register an account, and, second, if you think that unsourced or malicious information is being added, you can report it to the biographies of living persons noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:59, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, yes, I spotted it. There are a couple of linked articles that belong in the bit bucket, of which that is one IMO. Guy (Help!) 23:02, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Please see information at WP:BIOSELF. NE Ent 23:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Persistent altering of signatures.

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Jdsteakley's talk page has been the subject of repeated signature changes from George Ho to Huon by 3 IPs. I asked what they were doing, and they removed the question. Please advise. GAB^Hello! 22:41, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

They just tried to delete this thread. GAB^Hello! 22:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

And again. This is getting frustrating. GAB^Hello! 22:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The IP has been blocked, the talk page protected and everything has been reverted. -- GB fan 23:09, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Great, thanks! GAB^Hello! 23:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

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User JzG: ADMINACCT and INVOLVED

I am seeking input from other editors regarding recent actions by JzG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (aka Guy).

A large volume of mostly congenial discussion has taken place at two articles Kim Davis (county clerk) and Kentucky same-sex marriage license controversy about whether content should be deleted, split, merged, moved, and trimmed. In the past five weeks, there have been at least three RfCs, two move requests and three AfDs for these two articles, resulting in various outcomes. The biggest challenge has been to try to keep the discussions focused so that consensus can be clearly weighed.

I'm bringing this to ANI, not to discuss the content, which will resolve of its own accord. My concern is about JzG's conduct as an admin, his use of admin authority in a content dispute, and his refusal to respond to questions about his conduct and involvement.

The following events occurred

1. October 6, 11:10 - JzG closes an RfC [90]
2. October 6, 23:10 - JzG votes in a move discussion [91]
3. October 9, 10:37 - JzG closes an AfD for the spinoff article (Kentucky same-sex marriage license controversy)[92]
4. October 9, 10:47 Posts a non-neutral message soliciting "cool headed admins" to get involved [93]
5. October 9, 14:18 - JzG opens a poll in which users are asked to select from one of four options to move the Kim Davis biography to. Note, he opened this discussion while the requested move discussion is still running, in an apparent effort to sidestep an developing consensus.[94]

JzG has alternated between his editor role and his admin roles with respect to this content, which raises conflict of interest concerns as summarized in WP:INVOLVED. There was also concern about JzG opening what amounts to an overlapping move request during an ongoing (formal) move request. Both myself and Prhartcom raised these concerns on JzG's tall page [95] [96]. JzG's response was to delete our requests [97] without a response (which violates WP:ADMINACCT). To his credit, JzG did comment on the article talk page here, here, and here, however, it did not address his WP:INVOLVED status.

After seeing that JzG had deleted my first request from his talk page, I tried to engage him again [98] to discuss my concerns about his conduct, only to have the request deleted three minutes later [99]. His comment on my talk page also left me cold.[100]

I have other concerns about JzG's conduct in other topic areas, but those are out of scope for this discussion.

Comments are appreciated. Thank you.- MrX 23:07, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

ETA: Forum shopping and apparent conspiring to circumvent consensus: [101]- MrX 23:56, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comments Stop. The. Drama. MrX has concerns about JzG's conduct, I've had concerns about Mr.X's POV and agenda-pushing conduct at the article and article talk page in question as well as other hot-button issue articles to which he seems to gravitate. Personally, I think JzG (like other editors such as myself) are simply tired of X's penchant for drama, RfC's, opposing viewpoints at the talk page and in deletion discussions, POV pushing, and tendentious editing/discussion style. My suggestion is a boomerang at the most and a trout at the least. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:37, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • On that accord, the multiple polls/processes = the drama, and there's several people at fault for that (one maybe more than the rest, but I'm not going to name a name). The idea that there's just one person with an agenda just doesn't square with the history on what I now call a Shenanigans Page. Rampant POV pushing has come from several editors. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 23:46, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
    • And Mr.X has been in the middle of every bit of it adding more drama, more dissension, more, more, more. That's my observation, anyway. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
      • It seems to me your issue is about his particular POV more than his behavior, as again, if you look into the history, you will see several people bringing up the polls/processes over and over again. It's not just Mr. X. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 23:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Allow me to suggest that any complaints about MrX or anyone else be addressed separately, so as not to distract from the matter at hand. I won't violate AGF and call this a deliberate smokescreen, but it has the same effect as one. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:09, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I can't speak for anyone else, but it seems that even before this admin came along, we have had one poll/process piled on top of another, often repetitive and it had already just about worked my last nerve. Then this admin comes along, and per Mr. X's description, has brought in a virtual dump truck of salt to pour on an open gaping wound. This talk page has become Wikipedia's Shenanigans Page, and someone with a big mop needs to go in there and wipe it all out. All of it. Back to Square One. And this admin needs to be told to excuse himself from this and related articles. There's a power trip or something else I can't explain going on, and if I've just violated WP:AGF, I will advise the concentrated sucking of a lemon. I am unable to put my concern in kinder words. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 23:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Not seeing an issue with any of those diffs. The last diff that is complained about actually seems like the best way to consolidate the RfM to a solid title as opposed to the mess above it. Capeo (talk) 23:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

You don't think it's a problem for Guy to close an RFC, cast a !vote, close an AFD, and then start some sort of pseudo-RFC when there's already a merger proposal underway, all on the same - highly contentious - topic? Fyddlestix (talk) 00:34, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Pseudo-RFC? It's part of the same discussion. It started nothing new. It looks like an attempt to get an actual hard count on the suggestions above to finally settle on a title rather than have endless pontificating. Capeo (talk) 02:48, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: At this point, Kim Davis is notable on her own (including her life, background, and personal life) and her article cannot be disappeared without an AfD. Just a reminder, folks. We don't disappear articles without AfDs or at the least WP:MERGE proposals, but I'm quite sure if the Kim Davis article were to disappear someone would come along and recreate it, and be well within their rights to. The controversy and litigation can be a separate article if needed. Anyway, that's how I see it. RfCs do not determine these things. Softlavender (talk) 23:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Per the RFC on the page from last month, the community consensus is that we have 1 article. Davis has done nothing personally since then not related to the controversy and so still at this point, any article about Davis will be a WP:PSEUDO-biography of a controversy masquerading as something about a person. Claims that there MUST BE YET ANOTHER AFD are completely baseless.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:03, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

The Kim Davis article was AfDed twice already in the past 40 days (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kim Davis (county clerk) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kim Davis (county clerk) (2nd nomination)) and both of the extensive debates resulted SNOW Keep (and a clear decision against merging into the litigation/controversy article[s]). We cannot override that, personal opinions and non-binding RfCs notwithstanding, without a third AfD. Softlavender (talk) 00:14, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Back in the day (ahem), two snow keep's in a row would have been regarded as a sacrosanct "final decision", and this is part of why I've been essentially calling shenanigans. We have two hard decisions to keep as you describe, but some editors refuse to stop re-opening this question via various crafty techniques. Then an admin comes along and essentially puts his thumb down on a position in opposition to the double-snow-keep. This. is. maddening. And should alarm anyone who cares deeply about the Wikipedia. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 00:24, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, no matter who does what, the AfDs can't be overridden without a third AfD, which would be the second in less than a week. Softlavender (talk) 00:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Can you show me the policy that states an AfD can't be overridden by an RfC? Particularly for a merge. Because an RfC is going to get a lot more editors involved than an AfD in most cases. I'm not saying you're wrong but you keep tossing out these rules as though they're some policy that could trump consensus. I ask because merges are done all the time without either an AfD or RfC. Capeo (talk) 03:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I would note that this incident discussion is not about discussing what to do with this particular article. That discussion doesn't belong here. This is about a process that has turned into a clusterfudge of shenanigans. It's not just about this admin. That was just the cherry on top. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 00:07, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is in fact just about this admin, per the heading. We seem to have some disagreement as to how to expand the scope of this thread to a point where no consensus is humanly possible. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:10, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

OK then, in terms of Fyddlestix's question up above: "You don't think it's a problem for Guy to close an RFC, cast a !vote, close an AFD, and then start some sort of pseudo-RFC when there's already a merger proposal underway, all on the same - highly contentious - topic?" -- Yes, I do think that's a major problem, and a major mess, especially when both recent AfD consensuses were extremely clear not to delete or merge or even rename the Kim Davis article. So yeah, I think we have a problem and Guy should step away from the article. One or more admins should step in an ensure the Kim Davis article remains intact, and then sort out the two(?) litigation/controversy articles so they get merged into each other, without interfering with the Kim Davis article. And no, I don't think admins should summarily delete (archive) civil and good-faith questions on their talk pages (multiple questions in this case) -- they should definitely respond to them and be open to feedback and discussion. Softlavender (talk) 02:40, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• I can't see a problem in the diffs under "following events" in the OP. What admin action by JzG am I supposed to be seeing? The discussion JzG closed (first diff) is just another argument between those who are familiar with standard procedure and those who like the liberty of writing a BLP regardless of WP:BLP1E. It looks like the "Cool headed admins needed" post by JzG has morphed to #Kim Davis above, but cool-headed admins really are needed. Johnuniq (talk) 03:07, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

  John, the Kim Davis article has gone through two AfDs in the past 40 days, and both have closed after lengthy !voting as SNOW Keep and a clear consensus to avoid deleting, merging, or renaming the article. The only way to override that now would be to have a third AfD, which would be the second in less than a week. Softlavender (talk) 03:21, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

  What exactly are "cool-headed admins" needed for? Bypassing a consensus? Implementing Jimbo's version of a biography? Quelling an uprising? With the exception of one editor who was topic banned, the discussions have been quite collaborative considering the subject. I'm surprised that you don't see a problem with an admin closing discussions and voting in closely related discussions on the same article. When is it ever acceptable for admins to simply delete requests to explain their actions? Hell, I give IPs, trolls, and spammers better treatment than that. - MrX 03:40, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

  Two replies but no mention of the points I made—no admin action has been identified. This report is based on "conduct as an admin" with a claim of an ADMINACCT problem, yet it appears no admin action has occurred—has a page been deleted? protected? an editor blocked? The ADMINACCT issue is apparently the reversion of two posts at a user's talk page: being disruptive and Your Kim Davis disruption. Hint: if you want to talk about an article, use the article talk page, and if you want to talk to an editor, don't frame it in terms of them being disruptive. Wikipedia is open to anyone, so you can do these things if you want, but don't use ANI to whine about your unfounded complaints being archived. Johnuniq (talk) 05:43, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Tenebrae

Starting at the Help talk:Citation Style 1#Italicization of websites in citations discussion and continuing at the subsequent Help talk:Citation Style 1#Request for Comments: Italics or Non-Italics in "website" field there is a continuing issue with User:Tenebrae, who has difficulty understanding what other editors try to explain, and whose obduracy on several points amounts to a failure to WP:HEAR. (Examples listed below.)

Tenebrae's continual misunderstanding has also led him to misrepresentation of my statements and views, ad hominem attacks, and imputation of bad motives, all of this being a continuing pattern of uncivility that disrupts productive discussion.

Examples, with diffs and timestamps

From earlier discussion: 17:03, 7 Sep and following (see discussion): A misunderstanding followed by multiple attempts by various editors (17:59, 7 Sep, 20:40, 7 Sep 21:58, 8 Sep 00:48, 9 Sep 00:51, 9 Sep 23:06, 8 Sep 01:13, 10 Sep) to explain a key distinction vital to understanding the point being made, yet Tenebrae persists in his misunderstanding (e.g., 20:26, 10 Sep). 20:26, 10 Sep: More persistence, sliding into incivility: "Try and WP:HEAR this ...", followed by "Now stop making false accusations." 23:23, 10 Sep: "Don't you dare accuse me of uncivil behavior, when you were the first to say that anyone who took a different position from yours must, of course, have "faulty" reasoning. And you compound your incivility by falsely claiming I was deliberately misunderstanding in order to obfuscate." From RfC: 01:30, 10 Sep (after I said his "opposition is faulty"): "No. Just because you disagree with me does not make my position faulty. I am not misunderstanding anything". Also: "... you want a field that italicizes it in footnotes. That's ridiculous." 15:10, 15 Sep: "You were deliberately misrepresenting my stance ... in a false attempt at making me appear contradictory." 22:57, 21 Sep (after I said "your objections are getting tiresome, even tendentious"): "... stop with the name-calling. The only thing tendentious is your suggesting that Rotten Tomatoes is not a website. That's just remarkable." 02:43, 22 Sep: "Your double-talk ...", and "your bringing in irrelevant, extraneous points to create a smokescreen because you like the field to be italicized is just remarkable." 23:20, 23 Sep: "... your baiting me with insults", "the garbled, verbose, unclear nature of your writing", "your deliberate dissembling", "stop your smoke-screening", and "Your ridiculous argument". 22:36, 23 Sep (following my attempt to explain a point to him: ... don't you dare make up false claims and accusations, and dissemble like that." 22:37, 23 Sep: "completely disingenuous to claim...." 03:43, 30 Sep: "Only someone who knows he has no valid argument is going to start insulting another person, since that's a form of misdirection, and you've been smokescreening for most of this discussion. You're clearly so angry that rather than read thoroughly and think straight, you evidently only skim what I've been writing here." Misrepresentations by Tenebrae: 23:23, 10 Sep: "... you were the first to say that anyone who took a different position from yours ..."; "claiming I was deliberately misunderstanding in order to obfuscate". [23:48, 11 Sep] 01:30, 10 Sep: "You are claiming that corporations and government agencies suddenly transmogrify by magic into publications." ("Transmogrification" first introduced by Tenebrae at 19:43, 29 Aug where he imputes it as a premise. SMcCandlish commented that "[n]o one made any such argument of "transmogrification".) [22:47, 10 Sep] 15:10, 15 Sep: "You were deliberately misrepresenting my stance...." [22:47, 15 Sep] 22:57, 21 Sep: "... your suggesting that Rotten Tomatoes is not a website." [00:08, 22 Sep] 22:37, 23 Sep: "Why you want to encourage editors to wrongly italicize ...." [02:47, 30 Sep] 20:05, 6 Oct: "I never said anyone "is forcing you to use 'website='" ...." [00:12, 7 Oct] 19:54, 8 Oct: "refusal to respond ...." [01:00, 9 Oct]

I have repeatedly asked Tenebrae to refrain from and/or apologize for misrepresenting my statements and views (22:47, 10 Sep, 22:11, 24 Sep, 02:47, 30 Sep), which he has ignored, or dismissed as "smokescreening" (02:43, 22 Sep, 23:20, 23 Sep, 03:43, 30 Sep, 18:53, 7 Oct). As he refuses to voluntarily refrain from misrepresentations and general incivility I request that User:Tenebrae be topic banned from Help talk:Citation Style 1 for 30 days, a period comparable to the duration of his intransigence. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:17, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• I'm reading the discussion on Help_talk:Citation_Style_1#Italicization_of_websites_in_citations. Fascinating material; never heard that many words from Trappist the monk since their RfA. and what I'm reading--but I'm only in early September--confirms quite the opposite: every chance you get you seem to play the man (Tenebrae), not the ball (italics). If I were Tenebrae, I would have been really pissed by 01:13, 10 September 2015. Drmies (talk) 23:30, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• I mean holy shit.com, even at the RfC your very first comment is about Tenebrae's supposed misunderstanding. With italics. And bold. And those fancy green italics so loved by ANI regulars. Now, I wish that Tenebrae hadn't responded to your persistent goading, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you started it. Hell, you even use highlighted italics in the most patronizing manner. Yuk. Drmies (talk) 23:37, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

• I appreciate the other editors here understanding what I've endured with this editor, whose default tone appears to be patronizing and insulting — see exactly such comments to an editor here. Contrary to J. Jonson's assertion above, I understand other editors and they seem to understand me. But with J. Johnson there's clearly something happening beneath the surface, since he will say something I agree with, and then I'll say that I agree with it, and then he suddenly disagrees with it. I gives an example here.

As other editors seem to find, whether they agree or disagree, my suggestion was simple and I believed non-controversial:

1. In the template "cite web", a field's name is "website=". It automatically italicizes whatever is put there.

2. Yet some websites, such as the aggregators Rotten Tomatoes and the Grand Comics Database, by consensus are not italicized,

3. Logically, editors will places websites in a field called, well, "website=".

4. And by doing so, this forces italics on non-italicized websites.

I suggested one thing in the RfC, plus a compromise: Make "website=" non-italicizing, so that editors can easily italicized website that need it; or, a compromise, keep the field italic but just call it something less confusing than "website=". But the obviously angry J. Johnston would even brook the very idea of compromise, instead making off-topic points in green text, yellow highlighters and other distracting gimmicks. --Tenebrae (talk) 05:37, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lolly salad

A contributor to the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lolly salad has moved the page being discussed to what he believes is a better target. Wikipedia rules state that you should not move a page during a deletion discussion. I believe he did so in good faith, and has also tried to improve the article in question, but I would like an admin to take a look and see if the article should be moved back for the remainder of the discussion.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:23, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure about that rule? WP:AFDEQ merely says that a move can confuse the discussion and some other undesirable things, and that there is no prohibition against a move during an AfD. I think the theory of allowing a move is that the article should be presented in the best possible light in order to determine whether it is still worth deleting. In this case, the answer is yes, it should be deleted, as it's just a joke neologism. Johnuniq (talk) 05:53, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

FC CSKA Sofia players

Would somebody have a look at FC CSKA Sofia players that has been moved from Category:PFC CSKA Sofia players, please? Pinging page mover Darkanor. Thanks, -- Sam Sailor ^Talk! 07:54, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

It's because the page has been moved (to FC CSKA Sofia), the club appears to have changed their name, see e.g. official Facebook page which uses 'FC'. GiantSnowman 08:01, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, GiantSnowman, but you edited my post. The cat was moved to mainspace, please have a look again. Several other moves have been performed as well. -- Sam Sailor ^Talk! 08:15, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, sorry - I have moved back into category space. GiantSnowman 08:22, 10 October 2015 (UTC)