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Repeated PAs, ASPERSIONS, homophobic rants and BLPTALK violations by Xx236

BLPTALK violations

• (On historian Jan Grabowski) "Awardwining lies are still lies." [1]
• (On Grabowski) "If Grabowski cheats, his supporters have a big problem."[2]
• (On Grabowski and the USHMM) "anti-Polish sources and the Nazis [agree]."[3]
• (On Grabowski) "Grabowski misquotes Datner and doesn't have any idea about numbers."[4]
• (On sociologist and historian Jan T. Gross) "Some lies are obvious... JT Gross refuses to correct his errors, legal way is needed."[5]
• (On SUNY Albany philosopher Berel Lang) "I want competent historians rather than propagnada writers."[6]
• (On USHMM historian Edna Friedberg) "All Americans lack knowledge about Europe and the writer seems to be a perfect American ignorant."[7]
• (On sociologist Rafał Pankowski) "Center for Research on Prejudice are professional anti-anti-Semites... Rafał Pankowski (a leading expert in creating virtual reality."[8]
• (On anthropologist Joanna Tokarska-Bakir) "Tokarska-Bakir has some ethical problems."[9]
• (On Unistra researcher Valentin Behr) "Behr is an obsessional IPN enemy. He belongs to Western left, which wants to indoctrinate Polish people."[10]
• (On multiple media outlets) "Haaretz, Jerusakem Post, JTA frequently publish lies... [they're] propaganda."[11]

Unfounded PAs and ASPERSIONS

• "Icwhiz, you are extremely biased. I'm not sure if biased editors should decide about this Wikipedia content."[12]
• "Icewhiz, you don't have any idea about Poland... You are biased like hell."[13]
• "The man defends himself and Icewhiz supports the aggressor and probable liar."[14]
• "Poor [Holocaust Research Center], with friends like Icewhiz they will loose."[15]
• "The mafia lead by Icewhiz rewrites history of the Holocaust transferring responsibility from Germany and Austria (and their smaller allies) to Poland"[16]
• "You participate in anti-Polish campaingn promoting anti-government activists, unable to accept democracy in Poland."[17]
• "The ideology of Icewhiz is to attack the Poles, the Catholics." [The ideology of Icewhiz is to attack the Poles, the Catholics]
• "Icewhiz is revisionistic himself, he transfers German Nazi responsiblity to Polish peasants."[18]
• "You aren't human, probebly a bot."[19]
• "[a] revisionistic project by Icewhiz and FR. They transfer responsibility for the Holocaust from Nazi Germany to Polish people... Any subject is good to dehumnaize Polish people."[20]
• "anti-Polish hate speaker Icewhiz."[21]
• "Icwhiz haqs fought a war against Poland."[22]
• "the anti-Polish campaign by Icewhiz."[23]
• "Icewhiz, you have proven you don't have any idea about basic maths, please use emotional propaganda but don't try numbers and other mathematical ideas (growing). It's probably too late to learn maths."[24]
• "Icewhiz, quoting such extremely biased text is shooting in your own foot. It's a shame to be so dumb to write such trash and to quote such trash."[25]
• "The truth isn't important according to you. Your bias should win."[26]
• "a masterpiece of hypocrisy by FR. FR has bashed Polish history, culture and POlish editors now he asks - why is the world so cruel?"[27]
• "You have attacked Polish people now you care about racism. What you do is anti-Polonism symmetric to anti-Semitism... You are so indoctrinated you are unable to understand yourself. Probably only a psychoanalisis would allow you to understand yourself."[28]

Homophobic rants

• "LGBT is an ideology in Poland... The alleged LGBT community is a perhaps 1000 activis community.. The community is leftist, anti-government. The same people organize anti-governmeny... LGBT manifestations travelling around country."[29]
• "The march was organised by foreigners... LGBT activists came from Polish cities. They travel around Poland, so there is no one Day of Pride."[30]

Past warnings

They've been repeatedly asked to stop both on article talk pages[31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39] and on their own[40][41][42][43] as early as 2008,[44] and were T-banned from articles related to the Soviet Union two years ago.[45]

The matter has been brought to the attention of ARBCOM by five different editors,[46][47][48][49][50][51] but it chose not to comment. I trust the community will react differently. François Robere (talk) 14:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

What is the direct impetus behind bringing this here now, François Robere? While I await an answer to that, I will say that I have been noting Xx236's edits with increasing concern. A topic ban from Poland and EE (including BLPs) would be effectively like a siteban, since I'm not sure their focus goes much beyond those areas. El_C 16:38, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

a) The last two PAs, dating to today; b) I've waited three months to see if ARBCOM would engage on this; now the case is closed,[52] and they haven't. François Robere (talk) 18:43, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I would certainly be tempted to include LGBTQ+ articles; whilst it is unsurprising that someone defending one of the most homophobic countries in Europe should produce homophobic edits themselves, it is certainly something we could do without. Black Kite (talk) 18:59, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

• Many comments do look highly problematic and could be a reason for sanctions. However, some of them are not new. Others are criticism of a user who just has been sanctioned by Abcom, so perhaps some of the criticism was not unreasonable? I would suggest to bring this complaint to WP:AE. Then it will be handled a lot more efficiently than here. My very best wishes (talk) 20:37, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Block and proposals

I issued a 31h NPA block for this and this, as a starting point.

Proposals

1. IBAN with François Robere (two-way, probably)
2. TBAN from Poland broadly construed
3. Escalating blocks for continued personal attacks

I would support all three and invite others to discuss or add. Guy (help!) 21:54, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment – A lot of NPAs are against Icewhiz, so there's another potential IBAN. I'm not seeing reciprocal diffs that would suggest to me the IBANs should be two way rather than one way. A broader point: in light of potentially two IBANs and three TBANs, are there constructive contributions that justify having this much sanction overhead? I'd be curious to hear Xx236's response to all of this (albeit copied from their talk page). – Levivich 22:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - Xx236 is somewhat an odditity from older days of Wikipedia. He almost never edits articles and has been commenting for years.From what I gather ed he is a very, very elderly user who easily gets winded up by others and has little clue on how Wikipedia works.He didn't receive a ban before, and not all what FR shows is correct or insulting(although some edits are).I would say one month ban from topics on Poland should be sufficient for him to cool off, topic banning him indefintely perhaps is too early, give him a second chance-in many topics he offers point of view not known to western users and IIRC pointed out some fundamental errors like photos from Holocaust being wrongly describred.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:02, 24 September 2019 (UT:C)

I'm not enjoying this, I just had enough with attacks on my integrity, other editors' and BLPs'. It's been going on all year and we've all been patient enough. François Robere (talk) 22:43, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Re "He almost never edits articles and has been commenting for years", this same observation was made here at ANI, in a thread about Xx236's Polish-related editing, eleven years ago [53]. Xtools backs that up. Re "He didn't receive a ban before", he's received two. Ten years ago, Xx236 was TBANed from "Expulsion of Germans after World War II" [54] (a violation of that TBAN resulted in a short block [55]). Another TBAN, from Poland, was proposed in 2016, but NACed by an editor who commented in the discussion after it had been open for two hours [56]. In 2017, Xx236 was topic banned from Soviet Union [57] [58]. – Levivich 23:14, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

• Support all three of Guy's proposals above. The description of Xx236 by MoMoloboaccount accords with my experiences with them, but I disagree about a one month ban being sufficient to provoke any kind of change. There is absolutely no indication that Xx236 will ever change, or will suddenly understand how Wikipedia works. In my opinion, what you see is what we will always get from them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:04, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

• I have no problem with the IBAN being one way. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:12, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• Xx236 is already topic banned from Soviet Union: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive956#User:Xx236's disruptive editing and advocacy on Vladimir Lenin and other Soviet themed articles (2017). Extending this to Poland (or Eastern Europe) makes sense. Many of their edits are disruptions of Talk pages targeting BLP subjects and other editors, along with off-topic rants. Multiple suggestions on Xx236’s Talk page to modify their behaviour have had no effect. Here are my attempts:
  • User talk:Xx236/Archive 5#WP:NPA. Xx236’s diff I included was this: [Editor] insults 99% of Holocaust victims ignoring them and selecting the one percent of victims (including the indirect ones) of Poles. He transfers responsiblity from Germans and Austrians to Polish peasants, which is Holocaust revisionism. [59].
  • User talk:Xx236/Archive 5#Ewa Kurek Talk page; related diff: the Jews were complicit with the Nazis in organizing the wartime ghetto system [60].

I support the proposals with the exception of the 2-way Iban; there’s no indication that FR has behaved inappropriately towards Xx236. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:30, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I was surprised that ArbCom only kept two parties to the case and there were no FoFs about anyone else, especially Xx236. Though in a way this is pot calling kettle black, since François Robere has himself been warned and blocked for personal attacks in the Poland/antisemitism topic area. But FR is not incorrect about Xx236, who always doesn't even seem to bother to pretend he's interested in civil discussion. Pudeo (talk) 06:58, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support all three I have found them to be a problem, and have been on the receiving end of their attitude. They have a massively battleground and POV pushing mentality, without (I think) really adding anything beyond confrontation. I have also found them self contradictory even objecting to material they have added.Slatersteven (talk) 12:34, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

• @JzG: Just out of curiosity - why 31h? François Robere (talk) 14:07, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

• That's generally a pretty standard cool-down block for NPA from what I've seen elsewhere. Simonm223 (talk) 14:10, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Default for someone with no significant block history. 31h, and escalating for repeat infringement, seems right. Though I have to say his low mainspace count did tempt me to WP:NOTHERE him. But, you know, he's been around long enough to earn WP:ROPE. Guy (help!) 21:57, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

• @François Robere: Oldies have passed this tradition down verbally, the reason being that a block for 24 hours results in them coming back online at approximately the same time, so a +7 hours functions as a good reset. --qedk (t 桜 c) 19:34, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• Support all three though we should also start thinking about what our threshold is for an outright site ban; after many years, it's starting to wear thin. As noted, these sorts of limited bans have been used for this user before. It hardly encouraged good behavior. --Jayron32 14:27, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support all three, except for the IBAN being 2-way, since the PAs are going one way. - DoubleCross (talk) 02:39, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support all three w/one-way IBAN. I would probably support a siteban in light of comments like this from two days ago: "Now some people want to transfer African or Asian people to Polish towns or villages, if it is not racist reeducation of poor Poles, what is it?" (It's called "immigration," Xx236.) – Levivich 16:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support all three, and I would support a site-ban if proposed (I would like to do more research before proposing it myself). This behavior is way out of line. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:24, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

  Qualifying: I would prefer a one-way IBAN to a two-way IBAN, but I would prefer a two-way IBAN to none at all. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:24, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

• Support with one-way I-ban. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:40, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support a TBAN on Polish and Soviet-related articles, on LGBTQ-related articles, and a ban on personal attacks. After looking at these diffs and at the previous case [61] brought by Midnightblueowl, this is long overdue. -Darouet (talk) 18:12, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support all three, although I only see a basis for the one-way contact ban at present. It is very clear that Xx236 knows perfectly well that they are editing inappropriately; they've been warned again and again and again. I'd even argue that there's a case for an even firmer measure, such as a total edit ban. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:50, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support all three . Good grief.-- Deepfriedokra 09:57, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support #1 (two-way) and #3, but not #2 because I saw this contributor contributing constructively in some discussions. Lately, his behavior deteriorated, but I think #1 and #3 are sufficient. My very best wishes (talk) 20:29, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support all three, but with 1 way IBAN. No one has provided evidence of Francois Robere insulting Xx236.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:17, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Accusations of slander [[62]], this seems to me to indicate a two way is indeed valid.Slatersteven (talk) 18:28, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

The accusation of "slander" is substantiated by the list of BPL violations in this ANI complaint. It would be better not to use this legal term though, I agree.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:11, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

It still has no place on an articles talk page, as policy makes clear you do not dismiss a user views due to perceived bias, or any other reason. The tone (and no it is not isolated) was hardly helpful or likely to defuse tension.Slatersteven (talk) 19:33, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

That accusation of slander happened seven days after this proposal was made, and six days after you voted for the two-way. So what was your vote for the two-way based on? – Levivich 03:26, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

As I have said many time, I do not support 1 way IBANS, and I think (in this case) an IBAN is not a bad idea, hence I support a 2 way IBAN.Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• Support all three with one-way IBAN. SarahSV ^(talk) 12:37, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
• Comment If anyone would like to try and explain to him the seriousness of this discussion...[63] François Robere (talk) 12:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Ukrainian nationalist editor NachtReisender

NachtReisender (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The user has 53 edits and none of them seem to be good, only pushing pro-Ukrainian POV (replacing Russian with Ukrainian where it is not appropriate, edit-warring etc, examples: [64], [65], [66]). Could we please stop this before it escalates further? I believe an indefblock per WP:NOTHERE would be in order.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:50, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

• “Ukrainian nationalist NachtReisender”, you baldly did it xD Where does this conclusion come from?

In my defense, my edits are not unfounded and have sources. For example, the same Potebnja and Dovzhenko in other wikipedias are labeled Ukrainians, I just unified it. The user Ymblanter gives a mythical reference to the rule of Wikipedia, which seems to prohibit pointing the nationality of persona. Then, why the honourable user is okay with Scottish people and do not editing them into British? If my edits don't seems good to you, Ymblanter — well, sorry about that. —NachtReisender (talk) 20:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

WP:MOS is very clear that the ethnicity should not be mentioned in the lede. You are aware of this, you just do not think this policy has to be respected. Concerning unification with other Wikipedias - well, we definitely do not want to unify for example with the Ukrainian Wikipedias. where until recently it was stated that WWII had three sides, and still states, in Wikipedia voice, that Donetsk Peoples Republic is a terrorist organization.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:18, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

• • I'm not telling you about Ukrainian wikipedia only, just check the other versions. And for what reasons you have canceled my edit on 'Passions' film, which was justified as possible? When did Kira Muratova manage to become Russian? Who is nationalist now? xD -NachtReisender (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

    The fact that you can not understand this is actually a good argument that you should not be editing the English Wikipedia.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:39, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

    I also suspect that you do not speak English.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:39, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

  (Non-administrator comment) Ymblanter, would you care to strike that last comment? NachtReisender obviously has a sufficient command of English, better than a number of native English speakers I know (not talking about anyone on Wikipedia, for the record).

  On the topic of this ANI, I don't see a nationalist POV agenda or WP:NOTHERE in NachtReisender's edits so far. Time may prove me wrong, but as far as I can see the three diffs given don't support the accusation of NOTHERE behaviour. This diff, for example, is just a wikilink correction from a red link that's never going to exist into two accurate blue links to existing articles. With the other edits, MOS:ETHNICITY says not to include a person's ethnicity, but nationality is a different issue - MOS:OPENPARABIO says The opening paragraph should usually state [...] Context (location or nationality). A country with as complicated a history as Ukraine does lend itself to needing that kind of clarity when it comes to biographical articles. Any disputes over what that person's nationality should be in the article belong on the talk page ... which hasn't been used at all in this case. Actually, there doesn't seem to have been any discussion between these two editors outside of edit summaries and this ANI. Unless I've missed something really significant, I'd say this is a content dispute, not a behavioural issue. Marianna251TALK 22:02, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

  The diff you mentioned is off by one; the correct diff is the previous edit. (Forgive Ymblanter for making a common mistake; quantum physicists aren't known for precision.) – Levivich 04:01, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

  I have striken the language comment, though I still have doubts, but this is not the main point anyway. The Ukrainian issues are indeed complicated, and we have a number of users who are ready to discuss them, look for proper sourcing, and generally to help creating patterns to be used across our project. Unfortunately, we have many more users who just show up, change Russian to Ukrainian, Russian romanization to Ukrainian romanization, making ridiculous claims such as that Vladimir the Great was the "King of Ukraine", and when reverted and reminded about our policies, they start edit-warring, at best using edit summaries. I have a number of such pages on my watchlist, and it is really frustrating to see that once in several months a new user comes and makes the same edits without even caring to look at the edit history, without using the talk page, and without presenting any arguments. They really think that there are grave errors in most pages related to Ukraine, and in 20 years on the fifth popular website in the world nobody noticed that. This is related to a number of events in the recent history of Ukraine, and I can partially sympathize with its population, but what happens here just needs to stop, the earlier the better.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:44, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Ah, thank you, Levivich - that makes a lot more sense. I feel daft for not checking that. I've struck out that part of my comment above, since I now see the issue Ymblanter was raising. Thank you to Ymblanter for striking the language comment, as well - I really appreciate that.

I completely understand and sympathise with how frustrating it is to monitor pages and see the same unhelpful edits made over and over again. I've got a number of articles on my watchlist like that myself, some for the stupidest little things that just keep being changed over and over and over again. It's annoying, wastes time and sometimes makes me want to chuck my keyboard out of the window. I just don't think it's blockable behaviour except in extreme cases and I don't think this is one. A lot of the time I've found it to be a new editor genuinely wanting to help, who doesn't understand how Wikipedia works (and let's face it, Wikipedia is a bizarre, complicated mess at best). Like I said above, NachtReisender may well prove me wrong and turn out to be the kind of editor who needs a NOTHERE block, but then again they might not. My view is that they haven't had enough WP:ROPE yet to show either way. That's my tuppence and as always other editors will see things that I don't, so I'll leave things here and go with whatever decision the community makes. Marianna251TALK 06:48, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Most of us can not reliably predict the future, but on the basis of the battleground behavior I see (and we are talking about a user with only 50 edits), I see at best the potential to develop into smth similar to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#KHMELNYTSKYIA, accompanied with an enormous waste of time of the community.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:08, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

• The initial three diffs (1) change "Russian" to "Ukrainian" and change the spelling of a city from Russian to Ukrainian spelling, (2) change "Russian" to "Ukrainian" again, and (3) change "USSR | Soviet" to "Ukrainian SSR | Ukrainian", and (4) this fourth one changes "Russian-Ukrainian" to "Ukrainian". None of the diffs include a change in sources. So unless the sources in each of those examples was wrong in the first place, and NachtReisender can show that his change aligned with the sources, these are all unsourced changes. So far, NachtReisender has said the sources supporting the change are other language Wikipedias, and of course, WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source, so that raises a WP:CIR concern, as well as an WP:NPOV concern. Another concern is that these are just four diffs, how many more are there like this? – Levivich 04:01, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Boomerang, warning for Ymblanter: There is absolutely no communication with the user on their talk page telling them that their behaviour might be problematic(History of the user talk page. There is absolutely no communication with the editor beyond a one-off edit war with both editors communicating by edit summary instead of on the talk page, that stops when Ymblanter reverts and asks for them to come to the talk page. And what did Ymblanter do, instead of raising their issues with their edits politely on their talkpage?

Run straight to ANI, calling them a nationalist editor. That's a good way to drive good - faith editors away, and definitely conduct below what I would expect from an adminstrator.Lurking shadow (talk) 22:40, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, I actually have left a message at the talk page, which was a DS alert. Their only response to the message was to go back to the article and to revert my edit. However, I see that their only edit after this discussion has been constructive, so may be I overreacted indeed and there is some hope that they could become a constructive editor.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:44, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, a DS alert is just a template notification, but it expressly says that it's not an indication of wrongdoing. Everyone but the worst vandals gets at least one warning about their behaviour on their talk page before they are being reported to AIV. Even if a person clearly pushes a POV exclusively that doesn't mean that they don't change their behaviour when you give them a polite message on their talk page why they should stop. After all, they might erroneously think that what they do is good(and often do). Doing that instead of blocking or banning right on the spot not only helps retaining potentially good editors but also increases the chance that people without potential leave Wikipedia peacefully.Lurking shadow (talk) 12:09, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

And, please don't use phrases like "nationalist editor". It's better to say what's wrong with their edits instead of labeling the contributor. That only increases tensions and doesn't comply with WP:CIVIL.Lurking shadow (talk) 12:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

• No boomerang or anything else for Ymblanter. Of course. This is nationalistic editing, just as Ymblanter said, of a type that we have seen far too much of over the past few years, on all articles that are even tangentially connected to Ukraine. We do not rewrite history, we do not change nationality retroactively, and we do not add material that isn't supported by reliable sources (and what other Wikipedias say is totally irrelevant, since using Wikipedia as source, regardless of language version, is explicitly forbidden). - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 12:28, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, we don't do all those "not" things. That doesn't mean that it's acceptable to skip steps in the dispute resolution and to go to WP:ANI without discussing the problem with the editor on their talk page first if it was never raised on their talk page before. If the editor got clear warnings in the past, sure, you can go to ANI. Even if the person is only on Wikipedia to advance their views and has no interest in anything else here a polite message that this isn't allowed and why is a much better method to make them leave Wikipedia. And if the person is actually interested to contribute in other ways then going to ANI right away increases the chance of them going away and not coming back.Lurking shadow (talk) 17:53, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Of course we do not rewrite history, and that's why I, basically, did my edits, to file true statements. And I got reliable sources for every edit of mine.

• Barbara Karinska - Robert Greskovic, Ballet 101: A Complete Guide to Learning and Loving the Ballet; Timothy R. White, Blue-Collar Broadway: The Craft and Industry of American Theater
• Oleksandr Dovzhenko - https://www.britannica.com/biography/Aleksandr-Dovzhenko, https://www.moma.org/artists/32230; Joshua First, Ukrainian Cinema: Belonging and Identity during the Soviet Thaw
• Alexander Potebnja - John Fizer, Alexander A. Potebnja's Psycholinguistic Theory of Literature: A Metacritical Inquiry; American Association for Applied Linguistics, Meeting Handbook; Bohdan Rubchak, Annals of the Ukrainian Academy of Arts and Sciences in the United States -NachtReisender (talk) 13:46, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I admit that I was editing without communication with my 'thought opponent', and I'm sorry about that. I needed to have a discussion with them at the first place -NachtReisender (talk) 13:54, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Why do you refer to the director as Oleksandr Dovzhenko when the article is named Alexander Dovzhenko and the sources you provide also use that form of the name? And why did you repeatedly ([67], [68], [69]) change his nationality from "Soviet", linking to the USSR, to "Ukrainian Soviet", linking to the Ukrainian SSR, when no such nationality, i.e. "Ukrainian Soviet", has ever existed? - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 14:12, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Now I doubt that you read the article at all -NachtReisender (talk) 14:24, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

(ec) In the example of Dovzhenko, if you look at Talk:Alexander Dovzhenko, you would see that the Britannica arguments have been already raised by your predecessor (who is currently on their track to get topic-banned from all Ukrainian topics), and they receivend an explanation that this is the style issue, and our WP:MOS does not (and does not have to) coincide with that on of Britannica. Moreover, I mentioned WP:MOS in this very tread (and previously in our exahcnge). but somehow you were not interested in following it, you were more interested in the edit-warring.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:15, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Wow, it feels like you're allergic to anything that contains the word "Ukrainian", Ymblanter :p -NachtReisender (talk) 14:24, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

No one here is "allergic to the word Ukrainian", but we're sick and tired of people changing everyone and everything to being Ukrainian (up to and including claiming that Vladimir the Great, who lived a thousand years ago, was "king of Ukraine", linking to the modern-day countrry of Ukraine; you haven't done that though, AFAIK...). - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 14:28, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Casting aspersions??--Ymblanter (talk) 14:34, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Whereas I generally agree with @Ymblanter:'s position about Ukrainian nationalism, and I myself have to fight against them on WP pages, I think we need to think twice in that situation.

• If we compare Ukraine vs Soviet Union/Russian Empire and Scotland vs UK, we see many parallelisms: they amalgamated into a single state approximately in the same time, the joint state was ruled by leaders of Ukrainian (Khruschev and Brezhnev) or Scottish (James I) origin, both Ukraine and Scotland had a right of secession, which Ukraine realized in 1991, and Scotland tried to realize (without a success) few years ago. Again, there are a lot of parallelisms, and, if you see WP articles about Walter Scott, or James Clerk Maxwell, they are described as Scotchmen, not British, and nobody claims that is nationalism. In connection to that, "Ukrainian Soviet" seems to be correct in many cases. Even Kira Muratova, whose ethnicity was Russian, but who lived, worked and died in Ukraine, and associated herself with that republic/country, should probably be considered "Ukrainian Soviet", not Russian. Whereas I agree it would be incorrect to use just "Ukrainian" here.
• As far as I know, currently, Ukrainian Wikipedia is fully dominated by nationalists, and it is in a very bad shape. One possible reason to partially help to that project is to allow some nationalists to stay here and to mentor them (for some of them are acting in a good faith, their problem is that thry are poorly educated). That is why a topic ban of such users may create a situation when they will focus all their activity on Ukrainian Wikipedia, which will become a ghetto ruled by extreme nationalists.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:13, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

  Whereas I do not completely disagree, the Kira Muratova case is not black-and-white: She obviously was am Ukrainian citizen since 1991, but before that she studied and started her career in Moscow, and shot some of her important work in Leningrad. At the very least, removal of the Russian category would require a discussion. Unfortunately I just often see editors with a low edit count, who appear out of the blue, make a cavalry attack by replacing a dozen instances of Russian by Ukrainian without any discussion, and then disappear for months. I am afraid we have such a case here. Though of someone wants to try mentoring them, I obviously would not object.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:32, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

That is why I wrote she was "Ukrainian Soviet", nor just "Ukrainian".

In addition, it is necessary to keep in mind that the meaning of the word "Russian" changed since early 1900s. Previously, "Russians" were Orthodox subjects of Russian Emperor. There were three types of Russians: Great Russians, White Russians, and Little Russians. (BTW, the term "Little Russians" was hardly derogatory, for, e.g. "Little Poland" means the historical core of Polish land.) Modern "Russian" is an equivalent of old "Great Russian", whereas old "Rissian" is closer to XX century's "Soviet". --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:45, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

• Looking at the edits by NachtReisender, I think this not a case of WP:NOTHERE. Bias - yes, maybe, but not even remotely at the level that would require an immediate block. My very best wishes (talk) 17:48, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

• I got into this discussion after someone proposed a boomerang for the OP, i.e. Ymblanter, a proposal that IMO is so ridiculous that I just couldn't stay away. Editors with a Ukrainian nationalistic POV (up to and including direct falsification of history) is a big problem here, with lots of articles in a very sorry state (one of them being the article about the Ukrainian language and articles directly relating to that, where I've just done some cleanup), so something has to be done. And I do not share Paul Siebert's views about allowing the POV-pushers to edit here just to keep them away from the Ukrainian WP... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 18:07, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree: there is no any reason for the "boomerang" either. Yes, any obvious misrepresentation of sources could be a reason for sanctions, but the worst I have seen was this and this. First edit is at least partly defensible: the subject was an expert in lingustics and therefore being a Ukrainian may be relevant. My very best wishes (talk) 18:18, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

• Disruption is continuing: [70]--Ymblanter (talk) 09:40, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oh, "disruption", listen to yourself, Ymblanter! I just put a template next to the controversial statement, that's all. I would never think that you are such a impressible person. I still cannot grasp how you managed to transform such a tiny misunderstanding into the full blown scandal. Clearly, calling Vladimir the Great Ukrainian is not correct. Conscious people understand this, it is, like, obvious. All I did was clarify the affiliation of people who had an obvious relationship with Ukraine. You are trying to accuse me of something like insulting, but even you all have no internal understanding. To take at least your local conversation about Kira Muratova: are you saying that this is not an identical case with Dovzhenko? User Ymblanter considers himself a fighter for neutrality, but all he does is swap one shortcut for another through his own preference. And then pinning a nationalist label to the editor, for sure. I am not trying to offer the community some pointless nationalistic or whatever idea that has no source. This is the point. —NachtReisender (talk) 13:17, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

• A couple of examples to show what NachtReisender is doing here: they claim that 8 New Dates is a Russian-Ukrainian movie for no other reason than that one of the actors is Ukrainian (in spite of production company, producers, director etc etc being Russian; by that logic hardly any American movie would be American, since they all have one or more foreign actors in the cast), claim that another movie (Passions (1994 film)) was Ukrainian (first claiming it was Russian-Ukrainian and then changing that to only Ukrainian) for no other reason than that according to them the director, Kira Muratova, was Ukrainian (which by itself is a ridiculous claim, and is made even more ridiculous by the fact that she was of Russian and Romanian descent, born in Romania, educated in Russia etc, but lived part of her life in the Ukrainian SSR during Soviet times), and then repeatedly ([71], [72]) changed the nationality of Alexander Dovzhenko from Soviet, linking to the USSR, to Ukrainian, linking to the Ukrainian SSR, in spite of there not existing such a nationality, and also did the same in other articles. Etc, etc. All in around 50 edits (not counting the ones here), which is nationalistic POV editing, and not acceptable. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 15:59, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

• I would appreciate uninvolved eyes on Ukrainian literature, see page history and what I posted on the talk page of that article. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 17:30, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
• Umm, honourable Thomas.W, you probably did not notice, that production company of 8 New Dates, Kvartal 95 Studio is Ukrainian? -NachtReisender (talk) 13:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Ummm, no. According to the article the production company is Central Partnership, which is Russian, and Imdb list it as a Russian movie. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 13:56, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

IMDB is the most immovable source or what? By the way, the same site submits Kvartal 95 Studio as one of the production companies. -NachtReisender (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Imdb is better than no source at all. So where are your reliable sources for either of the movies I mentioned being Ukrainian? Or sources for any of your edits, for that matter. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 20:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

"Better than no source at all", who would doubt it. It seems like you only notice what you want, Thomas.W, because I was demonstrating sources on this same page. Speaking about "8 New Dates": 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 -NachtReisender (talk) 11:31, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

None of which supports your claims, stretching no farther than saying it was a co-production between Kvartal 95 and a Russian company; and this Ukrainian source you provided (and also links to above) directly contradicts your claim, by stating that the movie is Russian. Did you really believe that no one would be able to check/read the sources just because they're in a foreign language? - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 12:42, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru and disruption over e-cigs and pod mods

Pod mod (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

QuackGuru (talk · contribs)

WP:AN is pushing a backlog drive on AfC. Accordingly RoySmith took pod mod into mainspace [73] (so thanks for that). QuackGuru has now removed it [74] as "Redirect non-notable hoax article. (Please do not restore the mass failed verification content. See WP:CIR."

I was thus prompted to raise the following with them:

Pod mod

I'm concerned about your removal of this article [75].

Firstly, we have an AfD process. I'm sure you're familiar with it. It's fundamental here that we operate by consensus. We do not support single-handed deletion of articles like this.

Secondly, your reason for removing this article was "Redirect non-notable hoax article. (Please do not restore the mass failed verification content. See WP:CIR.)" [76] That's four separate claims as to why it should be removed. Yet these are unrelated claims, and you have shown no reason to support any of them. In particular, alleging a "hoax" article is a strong allegation against the editor who created that article and should not be made without some evidence to back it up. Importantly though, you then went on to add content from this article [77] to a new section Construction of electronic cigarettes#Pod mods. So which is it? If this is a "hoax", why are you propagating it further? If these sources failed verification in one article, why are they now acceptable in another?

I'm also less than happy about you using inlined ELs rather than correctly formatted citations and references. [78] Is there any particular reason for this?

Once again, your editing raises concerns. You are quick to add a warning banner about Discretionary Sanctions to this article, but you don't point out that you were the editor warned when such sanctions were applied Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles#QuackGuru_Warned.

This blanking of an article was inappropriate and disruptive. It goes against our accepted practice re AfD, should such an article really be inappropriate. Your allegations against it are unsupported, and also targeted against a specific editor, Sydneystudent123456. Your re-use of some content from the article also rather defeats the claims you made against it originally. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru blanked that without reply (they habitually blank all items on their talk:, rather than archiving). They similarly blanked a second request to discuss this.

I don't see this as acceptable editing, especially not when it's WP:OWN over a whole topic space, one which QuackGuru has got into trouble over before. We work by consensus here (do we still?) Single-handed deletions are not how we do things! I don't myself know if pod mods are notable (to the level of a distinct article) and had already asked as much on the talk: page. (I'm in the UK, I don't vape, I'm unfamiliar with the subtle variants). It does appear now that pod mods are a topic of some debate and we have coverage of them under the broader e-cig articles and also at Juul, the major commercial brand. But this is primarily a behavioural problem – single editors don't get to blank articles, the reasons given are hand-waving at best, certainly not supported by any evidence or specific claim, and when challenged like this it's incumbent upon WP:BOLD editors to be ready to at least discuss it. I would have un-redirected the article and AfDed it myself, except for the second refusal to discuss. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Huh. QuackGuru said failed verification, so I was expecting something really ridiculous like the sources didn't actually exist, but that's not the case. Haven't looked into it thoroughly yet but I'd say whatever QG saw that led him to just instantly blank the page is not obvious, at least to me. I think it's possible this is a reasonable action (the redirect only, not the subsequent interactions), but it really needs to be explained. Someguy1221 (talk) 13:39, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• Agreed. If it had been a "hoax article" then we have WP:CSD#G3 for that and at least an admin and a second pair of eyes would have seen it.

They still haven't communicated, but they have been busy editing and they've added a comment as an edit summary [79] about "Please don't restore content that failed verification or use poor source such as a blog. See https://www.caferacervape.com/blogs/news/a-brief-history-of-pod-mods-and-open-system-low-wattage-devices" However that source wasn't being used in this article, so I fail to see the relevance of mentioning it. Nor is a misleading note in an edit summary an acceptable substitute for discussion via a talk: page.

I half expected QuackGuru to take their usual line that "all sources must meet WP:MEDRS". Except that here [80] at Construction of electronic cigarettes they're happy to reference The Verge [81] and here [82] at Juul they're adding links to the SF Chronicle [83]. Maybe they think that it's OK if these ELs are inlined, rather than presented as citations? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

I have undone the redirect. If anybody feels this article should not exist, please to take it to WP:AfD for a proper discussion. @QuackGuru: I explicitly draw your attention to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles#QuackGuru Warned. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• And now of course, a personalised warning, and some WP:CANVASSing in another WP:FORUM, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Pod_mod, but still no discussion. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:32, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• QuackGuru is now proceeding [84] to strip sections out of the article, by their usual process of denigrating sources. This is inappropriate: they show no issue with those sources, the claim "commercial source" is not enough to start section blanking, they have shown no error in those sources, they have shown no error in the content and it is against WP:PRESERVE to act in this way to dismantle an article with no effort made to find other sources. We are still awaiting any response from them here at ANI. These edits are disruptive, and they are disruptive in the way for which an explicit DS has been in place on QuackGuru themself for some years. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• And now pejorative comments like this, "please stop restoring original research". But there was no such restoration. This is just throwing phrases into the edit log and hoping that some mud sticks. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:26, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• I got a failed verification tag from QG for something that I thought to be uncontroversial. Not sure what is going on but it seems QG is holding this article to a higher standard than others. I added a section to the talk page to discuss and hopefully he responds. spryde | talk 18:30, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • It's my impression that QuackGuru is very frequently concerned that anything short of plagiarism might not be true enough to the cited source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:06, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• QuackGuru seems either unable or unwilling to communicate with other editors. They will adopt some particular idea, then defend it to the death and happily edit-war to do so, but simply will not express to others what it is beforehand, thus avoiding a whole lot of argument. I cannot understand why this is, but it does make editing around them particularly difficult. They seem to go out of their way to post half-truths to talk: pages: something which can't be said to be definitively wrong afterwards, but is especially unclear and misleading at the time. So when complaining of a source, they refer to it by a URL that isn't even used in the article, rather than pointing to its use in that article. They complain "don't restore OR" when nothing has been either deleted or restored. They will insist that all sources meet MEDRS, even for simple matters of commercial business (but are happy to use non-MEDRS sources themselves). They remove content as "not relevant" even though it is highly relevant to the broader context of understanding the article, just because it doesn't contain a specific easily-matched word (I've written AI reasoners which suffered much the same problem). And throughout all of this, other editors are simply wrong: there is no room for debate or opinion, it's QuackGuru's version or nothing. That is not how we operate. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• Quick example: Tagging the text, "Pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes and some resemble USB devices." as "fails verification " See "The palm-sized device resembles a USB flash drive,,," Obvious FV content." from a source which contains the literal text, "The palm-sized device resembles a USB flash drive".

So, sorry QuackGuru, but that is not an obvious verification failure and you have failed to state what particular arcana is offending you. This is a collaborative project involving other editors and if you are going to oppose other editors over minutiae such as that, it is incumbent upon you to at least explain the issue.

Similarly, "they do not prodcue smoke" when tagging "Pod mods are portable devices that people use to smoke" as OR. Well, sorry QuackGuru but this is smoke; smoke by its technical broad definition includes pretty much any particulate aerosol produced by heat and that includes pyrolysis rather than combustion, and e-cigarettes et al certainly perform pyrolysis. Also modern language has yet to catch up fully with its terminology and possibly "smoking" may not be the best verb to apply here, but in no way is this WP:OR. It is simply another pejorative use of terminology by you to tag it as such, as an inevitable waypoint towards its removal. This is sheer sophistry on your part, to a level where it's deliberate and it's disruptive. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Andy Dingley: technically the content did fail verification since AFAICT, no where does the source say "pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes", it only suggested one possible shape (and possibly size). But I'm not sure that tagging it FV was the best way to handle it. Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• This is not a problem of content, it's a problem of behaviour: that's why it's at ANI.

Far better editing by QuackGuru would be to list any problems on the article talk page, to make specific statements about what is wrong with them, then to put forward intended solutions: a change of wording, a need for a better source, even the need to remove a section. There might not even be much need for discussion: maybe some of these problems and remedies would become so self-evident that all would be in immediate agreement (there seems to be zero evidence of a POV disagreement). But they are doing none of that. Instead we see unexplained changes made directly to the article. We see threats [85] to delete the article again as "unsourced", when this is a clearly untrue and hyperbolic statement to make. QuackGuru's editing style makes collaboration impossible: in a context where reversions are restricted (and they've made that sanction threat clear enough, even though it's not even clear it applies) their technique is to "capture the high ground first". Anyone disagreeing with QuackGuru will be described as edit-warring and instantly reverted. The changes they're making are unexplained and unjustified (even if correct, or at least their underlying reason needing to be addressed) and they're making the change first, then being forced to provide some sort of justification afterwards. This makes it very difficult for another editor to provide a different remedy to the same (agreed) problem.

Consider the case of the physical resemblance to USB sticks: this is a most trivial issue. Yes, there may be some minor inaccuracy in there and it might need to be fixed by some very minor copyediting on non-contentious wording. But instead QuackGuru is attacking the sources, slapping on a "failed verification" tag, advocating deleting the entire article because "100% fails verification". An editor trying to fix the descriptive wording problem then has to fight uphill, justifying their changes in terms of dire actions like "removing an {{OR}} tag from an article subject to MEDRS", "Re-introducing content that failed verification", "Using sources that do not meet MEDRS". This is to skew the entire editing process unfairly in one editor's favour! They might as well start asking, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of Quora?"

This is a behavioural problem (and they still refuse to engage here), it's disruptive, it's a severe form of WP:OWN and it needs to stop or be stopped. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:55, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Andy Dingley, except that you explicitly said

Quick example: Tagging the text, "Pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes and some resemble USB devices." as "fails verification " See "The palm-sized device resembles a USB flash drive,,," Obvious FV content." from a source which contains the literal text, "The palm-sized device resembles a USB flash drive".

You cannot have it both ways. You made a big deal over the fact that the content does not fail verification because the source explicitly mentions it resembles a USB flash drive. But you completely neglected to mention that in fact the source only says that. It does not support the claim "pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes". Therefore as I said, the failed verification tag was technically correct, regardless whether or not it was the best way to handle it. (And I've already said it wasn't.)

I would note that the reason I realised this is because I nearly faulted QuackGuru on my talk page for them adding a failed verification tag when it wasn't justified since I WP:AGF that you were correct. Thankfully this didn't happen since I double checked myself before leaving my comment.

If you want us to focus on the problems with QuackGuru's editing you need to avoid making misleading claims. From my experience a good way to ensure any complaints you have at AN//I get ignored is by ensuring that we are pointlessly arguing over what the person complaining about said because they are careless or misleading in what they say. As I've said, it seems to me QuackGuru's editing does have problems, so I have no idea why you insist on bringing up stuff that detracts from that point.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:30, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• This has never been about the accuracy of the article complaints here, so much as the appropriate remedies for how to fix them. The text in the article was over-specific for what the source literally stated. If an editor sees that as a problem, then there are quick, easy fixes to that such as either rewording to only match what can literally be supported (one observed device resembles such a device) or else (as appears likely to be the case) noting that resembling USB devices seems to be an ongoing theme across the market and finding additional broader sources to support that broader claim. But shouting "FAILS VERIFICATION!!" from the rooftops and demanding the article is deleted as a consequence is an over-reaction. A disruptive over-reaction. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Here's a straightforward example of disruptive tag-bombing: [86]

"...however the health risks are currently undetermined as they are new productions." {{CN}}

"...the health risks of these are also unknown and not well-studied." {{CN}}

Two tags of those added, where a high school philosophy freshman should be able to spot the fallacy.

If the text read, "the risks have been quantified", then that would be a WP:biomedical claim rightly needing WP:MEDRS. But it isn't, it's the opposite of that. It falls under WP:BLUESKY. They are new (this is unchallenged, and anyway met by RS elsewhere) and there are no known studies. If an especially pedantic editor wanted to qualify the wording of the statement (at the cost of losing clarity as an encyclopedia) then they could reword as "No studies are known at present (2019) to the authors of this WP article", which would be pointless yet justifiable. But to demand citations is ridiculous: "New things are unknown" is not merely uncited, it is unciteable, and that is a matter of classical logic, not medical quackery. To then take that as an excuse for deletion (read the edit summary added) is disruptive above all else. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:04, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• Without wanting to express any strong views about Quack's overall editing, I request that, if any decisions need to be made, you all please kindly limit the number of RFCs involved. A couple of months ago, QuackGuru had ten (10!) separate RFCs about e-cigs underway at one time. As some of you know, I've followed the RFC advice pages for years and years, and I cannot recall a single instance in which another editor had even half that many content RFCs underway at one time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• Agreed that this is WP:OWN behauvior, and QuackGuru has staggering 2,449 edits in e-cigarette according to Xtools edit count. Not everything related to e-cigs should be vetted by one person. --Pudeo (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• My impression which seems to be supported by WP:AfD, WP:ATD-R and Wikipedia:Merging is that it's not always necessary to AfD something where merging or redirection while keeping the old article is the desired outcome even if these are possible outcomes of an AfD. If it's expected to be uncontentious, no discussion may be needed. It may also be acceptable to rely on other forms of discussion like RfCs. This is in part because merging or redirecting (while keeping the article) are explicitly not a form of deletion as no admin action is needed and the edit history is still there. These actions can be reverted by anyone like with normal editing processes. However it's recognised that many editors will not be aware of this, so care needs to be taken and sometimes AfD may be better. Note that this is explicitly not an endorsement of QuackGuru's actions. If you've found a hoax, it needs to be deleted so you should use some deletion process. It's harmful to simply redirect or merge a hoax as you're running the risk someone will revert to the hoax either intentionally or accidentally. But I agree with others it doesn't seem this is a hoax, based on the sources and the fact the info was merged anyway. QuackGuru's other actions here also seem concerning. Nil Einne (talk) 05:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

It's been pointed out to be my QuackGuru they didn't merge content so I've struck that portion of my comment above. Instead I will say "But I agree with others it doesn't seem this is a hoax, based on the sources and the fact that the info or very similar info already existed in another article they redirect to. It possible that some of the content in the original article failed verification and this needed to be dealt with, but it's clear that the article itself and the concept it dealt with was not a hoax. To reiterate what I said, if it was a hoax it needed to be deleted outright not simply redirected." Nil Einne (talk) 06:51, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• " These actions can be reverted by anyone like with normal editing processes. "

No, they can't be "reverted by anyone". It needs a particularly thick-skinned editor to disagree with QuackGuru. Their immediate reaction is to place a dire warning box on the editor's talk: page, threatening sanctions (despite the fact that ArbCom's ruling behind such sanctions was directed at QuackGuru). Then they fire up threads in the walled garden of the medical project, demanding the use of sources to MEDRS, just to say what year a commercial product was launched or whether it's the shape of a USB stick. And they will still not join the debate here at ANI, a thread specifically about their behaviour. This is QuackGuru going out of their way to place barriers in front of other editors, and that's usually an effective strategy to imposing their single viewpoint onto articles. This has nothing about article quality or verifiable standards, it's about refusing to cooperate. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

So, you're saying that "dire warning box" is too frightening? --Calton | Talk 08:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• I've always said that. It's completely unfit for purpose. It threatens other editors, it's unclear as to what it means, it's unclear as to how other editors ought to respond to it or should change their editing. It's used by a handful of established editors in order to intimidate others, and it's often highly effective against blameless new editors (read some of the Teahouse reactions to being hit with it).

Worst of all is its lack of clarity. It doesn't link to any good explanation of what "Discretionary Sanctions" are and what they mean for ongoing editing. The justification for them (i.e. the source ArbCom case) is hidden and mostly irrelevant to the current situation. These DS boxes are mostly used by two editors: one who favours a DS box linking to an ArbCom case that was rescinded or else (in this case) a case where the editor pasting the warning box was one of those being admonished by ArbCom.

So yes, this is just a scary stick to try and frighten other editors with. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:02, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Regardless, that has nothing to do with my point which is that there has never been any policy or guideline requiring that redirects and merges must go through AfD. Nor my point that redirects and merges are explicitly not a form of deletion and can technically be reverted by anyone (given the limits of page protection, edit filters, and editor blocks). Note I also said that QuackGuru's actions were wrong here but that doesn't change the general point I made which you challenged. QuackGuru should be called out for their problematic editing. What you've alleged of their behaviour may be a problem, but failing to use AfDs for merges or redirects it not itself a problem unless the conditions when they did so is a problem. Likewise, if QuackGuru prevents people reverting when they should and can that's a problem, but that doesn't change the way merges and redirects operate. That said, I'm not sure that QuackGuru is even putting barriers in place for reversion. Giving a discretionary sanctions notice to someone who had not been notified seems fair enough. I'd note an editor does not need to be "thick-skinned", they just need to properly understand the notice or the discretionary sanctions process in general to know that such notices are irrelevant to whether or not they can revert if justified and of course that QuackGuru's actions would also be covered under the discretionary sanctions regime if their actions are. Not to mention skin thickness does not matter if the editor has received a notice within the past year meaning they cannot receive another one. Nil Einne (talk) 13:18, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• I've no objection to the use of either AfD or talk: page discussion, or anything similar, but there needs to be opportunity for discussion by some means, and QuackGuru is doing their best to avoid it at all. Their actions are instant, so that WP:FAIT applies, and they're hedging even the smallest issue around with the biggest obstacles of MEDRS etc that they can.

Juul is pretty obviously investing in high quality design to make an attractive product, more than a merely functional one. It does have resemblances to a USB stick, in both size and shaping. The amount of arguing against this and the sources involved, and the implication that the article needs to be deleted as a result, are out of all proportion to the underlying issue. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Nil Einne, the discretionary sanctions notices are scary for most people – perhaps for almost everyone except the few editors who like to spam them around at every opportunity. We've tried to clarify the wording – I was involved in the effort to specify that this situation exists because of other editors, and doesn't say anything about your own contributions – but they are still perceived by the recipients as direct and immediate threats. I have been wondering whether it would make sense to ban their delivery by people who are in disputes. In the current free-for-all situation, an editor who is edit warring can drop that notice on your talk page. In that situation, it is no wonder that people think the underlying message is "Let me own this article, or I'll get you blocked". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:26, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Have to disagree. For new editors, yes I agree they are often scary and confusing. For anyone familiar with the regime, they are generally not scary. For editors who aren't new but are also less familiar with the discretionary sanctions regime IMO it varies. I have said before that IMO it's best if an editor involved in a dispute with another editor, or who simply often disagrees with the other editor doesn't hand them out. Instead an uninvolved editor or even better someone friendly with the editor should hand them out. But I also feel that any ban on people who may hand them out would carry a reasonable risk of making the regime less effective. I myself have handed them out on a few occasions, mostly when I see someone at one of the ANs who is editing the area and where I feel there is a chance the regime may be useful. I admit this may not be ideal, but I generally avoid simultaneously criticising the editor a lot or getting involved in any dispute. Thinking more of something I said above, I wonder if it may be helpful to add something to the template emphasising they apply to all editors including the one handing out the notice if they are involved in the topic area. But this is perhaps getting too far off topic. I stand by my claim that you do not have to be a thick skinned editor to be largely unaffected by the possibility of notices. For example anyone familiar with the regime or anyone who has already received a notice and some other editors. This is particularly significant here since RoySmith and Andy Dingley themselves seem to be 2 of the major editors involved in the article and I do not believe either of them should be affected by receiving a discretionary sanctions notice. The creator User talk:Sydneystudent123456 doesn't seem to have received a notice either [87] Nil Einne (talk) 16:49, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

It's possible true that "anyone familiar with the regime" will be unaffected. However, that restriction basically excludes 99% of registered editors. In my experience, it's really hard for long-time editors like us to even imagine what our system looks like to people who aren't us. For example: Less than 10% of registered editors (all accounts, ever, specifically at this wiki) are autoconfirmed. The median number of undeleted edits for registered accounts is zero. Think about what that means for our assumptions about what "most" editors do or think or feel. We are not like most editors. I might receive these notices with the realization that another editor is trying to escalate a dispute. The median editor receives them with as little nonchalance as they would receive notice of a dispute from their nation's tax agency. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:14, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Well I never disputed that discussion should be allowed. My point was and remains that we should not conflated merging and redirection with deletion, and also that other processes can be used instead of AfD for that discussion. I felt this was important since the initial comment seem to come close to suggesting the opposite. I don't really see a point to argue content issues like what Juul makes and USB sticks on this page and was never suggesting we do so. My point with that was that the content did fail verification. As I said, I don't think adding a failed verification tag was the right way to handle that but I stand by my view it's very confusing to imply the content did not fail verification when it did fail verification (even if some part of the content was verified by the source). Nil Einne (talk) 16:53, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• So, still no response from @QuackGuru: and the WP:OWN continues on the article(s). Per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles#QuackGuru_Warned, is it time to escalate to WP:AE? The edits themselves might be debatable as a content issue, but the refusal to discuss is disruptive. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:28, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
  • My original post a couple of days ago got lost in an edit conflict. It may be time to escalate this to WP:AE if you think that helps resolve this issue.
  • After I read this comment I decided to make a quick post here.
  • I am discussing the issues on the talk page, but this is a new article and there are very few editors watching the article. The edits themselves can be considered a content issue. I made a bold edit to redirect it because the Construction of electronic cigarettes article discusses the different types of devices and there was a lot of misinformation about the pod mods in the new article. There is new content about pod mods in the Construction of electronic cigarettes that is 100% sourced. See Construction of electronic cigarettes#Pod mods. I wrote the content myself and I did not copy content from any other article. Having a splinter article seems more like a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. QuackGuru (talk) 18:21, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

I've had similar problems with Quackguru, and I haven't managed to discuss most of them them productively: see this discussion, and much of my talk page. Aside from my own ignorance and mistakes (advice welcome), there are a few recurrent sources of conflict, which it would be good to have resolved.

On merging, redirection, and deletion, I'd like to raise what I see as obfuscation of article and talk histories (example, original article) and, more trivially, QG's own draft space (for instance, pages titled with totally unrelated word, or an IPA schwa character). QG's manual archiving of talk page discussions, which matches the clear-desk ethos of QG's talk page, can be inconvenient to part-time and intermittent editors.

Draft-replacing content is fast, but it feels a bit like driving a flail tank through a community vinyard to till it.

I really don't like it when QuackGuru privately writes a parallel article in the draftspace, then overwrites the multieditor article. It is especially frustrating when QG has, while writing the draft, been asking other editors to fix problems identified by QG in the article (or delete or redirect the article), without telling them of the any plan to replace their work with the draft. If editor efforts are in competition, anyone who spends less time editing than QG, or edits more slowly, is at a disadvantage.

QG sometimes uses language I find needlessly threatening (prod example). I have, in the past, overreacted to QG's warnings (though not that one). I've learned that the best response to threats of formal complaints is to urge QG to follow through with them. QG often repeatedly raises issues with my editing. When the issues are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, or when I have acknowledged faults, apologized, and fixed, or when the forum is one I only come across by chance, this feels like mudslinging (example).

I strongly support inline tagging, but I often find QG's tags trivial (some phrasing and page number requests) or incomprehensible (many fv tags). Quackguru seems to mostly think that every sentence must have exactly one source at the end of it. It is also difficult to steer between Scylla and Charybdis with closeness to sources; QG opposes both excessively close paraphrases as copyvio and excessively loose ones as failed-verification. This leads to passages in the first style below:

Anon was born in the 19th century[1]. She was born in Nowheretown[2]. Her parents worked as cobblers[3]. Her mother was named named Anan[3]. Her father was named Anen[4]. Anon attended Nowheretown School[4]. She studied basketmaking in her first two years at Nowheretown School[4]. She also studied applied agrostology in her last year at Nowheretown School[5]. In 1882, the Nowheretown Post described her as a "elderly lady".[6] In 1882, the Journal of Applied Agrostology said that she was well-known to for her "application of agrostology to basketmaking"[7]. She died in 1882[8]. Her son gave the Nowheretown Botanic Gardens and Handicrafts Museum her collections[7]. Her collections included herbarium specimens and furniture[7].

Anon was born in Nowheretown[1] in the 1880s[1] to two cobblers[3] named Anan[3] and Anen[4]. At Nowheretown School, she studied first basketmaking[4], then applied agrostology[5]. In later life,[6] she became well-known for her application of agrostology to basketmaking[7][8]. When she died at an advanced age in 1882, the Journal of Applied Agrostology published an obituary praising her work. Her herbarium specimens and furniture were donated to the Nowheretown Botanic Gardens and Handicrafts Museum[7].

Example obviously made up, to avoid using a controversial topic. I'll also give a real style example; readers may also wish to see if they can spot the two paragraphs of QG's style in Nicotine marketing. A few examples of citation disagreements, all from one page:

• Talk:Heat-not-burn product/Archive 2
• Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive 1#Confusion
• Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive 3#Copyright violation
• Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive 9#Bogus_citation

QuackGuru has argued that that all sources must include wording matching the article title. This severely constrains editor judgment in determining the article scope and providing context (example). Likewise constraining is Quackguru's view that an image cannot be included in an article unless a source says that it illustrates the article topic (one "humorous" example).

Because we have a history of conflict, I probably don't see QG's best side; we all tend to give more consideration to those we respect, an exacerbating feedback. The next two paragraphs may therefore be unduly harsh.

I rarely get the sense that QG is intellectually engaged in a content discussion, and discussions with QG tend go nowhere via long strings of characters. I often find QG's posts unclear, and it takes several exchanges to extract a meaning I'd expect to get in two sentences. QG often does not answer direct questions, and reiterates the same points or ones I find logically unconnected, until I've wondered if my own posts are even being read. This communications burden often puts off other editors who would otherwise engage on topics of interest to QuackGuru (example). I think a majority of my talk page posts have been made in response to QG; I never came in contact with QG for the first decade or so of my editing.

Obviously I disagree with some of QuackGuru's interpretations of rules, and formal guidance on these issues might help reduce conflict. However, more generally, I feel that QuackGuru tends to focus overmuch on using rules to control article content, rather than on understanding and improving content. I'm therefore not sure that providing more rules would help much (especially since combativeness tends, even with the best will in the world, to be infectious). I'm not sure what would help, though QuackGuru has some views. HLHJ (talk) 22:02, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Edited in response to User talk:HLHJ#Allegations without supporting evidence. HLHJ (talk) 22:48, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

This very much matches my experience of dealing with QuackGuru. They seem to be more interested in content as a sequence of matching text strings and they have no interest in or understanding of any meaning behind that. They are also persistently either unwilling or incapable of communicating with other editors to any normal level: they see interaction as a series of barriers and obstacles, not as an opprtunity to share information. The "I would have commented to this ANI thread about me days ago, but there was an edit conflict" claim is simply not credible. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:07, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I do think that QuackGuru is interested in the meaning of content, as QG edits on specific topics of interest, with an identifiable point of view on those topics (which I do not consider unacceptable, or avoidable). I find I can often predict which statements QG will tag and remove, and if and how QG is likely to alter statements, but I find it harder to predict what objections QG will make to the statements. I haven't gotten the impression that QG is very interested in teaching me or learning from me, which I would be OK with if we were not in conflict. I'm not very good at social interactions myself, and I have sympathy with editors who want to minimize the social side of editing; there are unobjectionable ways of doing this. HLHJ (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Well I am out. I normally don't edit controversial things and I try to avoid WP:MEDRS sections of articles as I don't feel comfortable judging if sources are reliable enough. I still think this is a valid article separate from e-cigs as there are a few articles on Google Scholar from JAMA and NEJM which focus on Pod Mods in general.There are also a handful of articles in mainstream sources that also focus on the category rather than a specific brand. That makes it pass WP:GNG in my eyes but apparently not in others. spryde | talk 11:46, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

I've stayed away from this discussion for a few days since I felt I'd said enough and it was better to let others comment. Since it still doesn't seem to have achieved a clear resolution and there are suggestions for AE I'll just make a few final comments.

One, I think QuackGuru's refusal to engage in this ANI is concerning. While sometimes when it's without merit it's fair enough to just let others deal with an ANI on your behaviour, and it's easy to harm yourself with poorly considered posts at ANI; IMO there were enough serious concerns here to warrant at least some comment. It's clear QuackGuru was paying attention since they quickly approached editors who had commented when they had concerns (me and from the sounds of it HLJH).

Two, I'm also concerned there has been no real engagement with QuackGuru on Talk:Pod mods over article content issues. Whatever concerns there over QuackGuru's conduct, I do not believe they warrant ignoring their attempts at engagement, especially since one of the concerns was their refusal to discuss their concerns over article content. To be fair (paraphrasing here) 'should I delete half the article content as unsourced' is not something that's easy to engage with. But when QuackGuru raises specific concerns over specific text failing verification (or whatever), I think at least some action should be expected even if it's just a quick comment 'no you're wrong, the source says XYZ' or minor rewording to fix the problem or finding a new source or whatever.

Three, and bear in mind I have basically no experience with AE and I'm not an admin, I feel if an AE case is raised it would be best to concentrate on clear cut examples. For example whatever problems there may be with posting discretionary sanctions notices unless these are clearly inappropriate (user is already away, user never edited the area) I have doubts they'd get much heed. Likewise saying something did not fail verification because it mentions USB-likeness when it didn't mention the other stuff may not be a great example. Either say that even if it technically failed verification blindly tagging it along with a whole load of other content was not the best way to handle it. Or find refs which do support this content add them and if QuackGuru continues to complain because they don't like 2 sources then maybe you have an example. (I think the former already happened but it's still IMO an example of what happened early in this case that would best be avoided at AE.)

Nil Einne (talk) 07:46, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• Gah the article on pod mod needs work. These are simply a form of electronic cigarette. Does it need its own article? Not convinced... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:37, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• No-one is disputing that it needs work – except perhaps QuackGuru, who thinks that such work is impossible and the whole lot needs to be deleted.

Are they notable? Well, my first comment on the talk: page was to ask just that. QuackGuru thinks they're distinct, and has created a CFORK on that basis. I'm still unconvinced (I am too busy to do any editing for the next few weeks), but if they are (and I think they are) it's because the Juul is not merely another e-cigarette. Whether there are any pod mods other than Juul is a separate question. But it seems (from what little I've had time to read) that the difference with them is nothing to do with replaceable coils and it's actually about the chemistry of the fluid used. Juul is using nicotine salts, which appear to have significantly different biological effects. If pod mods are really different from other e-cigs, it's this different chemistry which makes it. However QuackGuru has already stripped the redlinks and decided that it's "just not notable".

They are impossible to work with. They do not engage with others, they do not engage with serious efforts to try and answer specific issues, they just keep re-posting "Can I delete all this yet?". They don't need permission to do so in the first place: they need to justify it. But asking over and over again is a way to get this "permission" by attrition and omission. If they simply persist long enough, more and more editors will say "Well I am out." and when it goes quiet, they can delete the article "because no one complained beforehand". That is not acceptable editing: we have to collaborate here, and none of us get to simply ignore the others. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

As someone who is a domain expert in certain topic areas who, like QuackGuru, has a massive edit count in those articles and been involved in numerous content disputes, I have also had WP:OWN thrown at me in content disputes by other involved editors. It is both really disingenuous and a very clear case of fundamental attribution error (i.e., a cognitive bias) to ascribe another editor's reversion of your edits and those of others who are a party in the dispute as WP:OWN without a clear statement of ownership. An editor is violating WP:OWN if the they make a statement of ownership and/or take action to prevent all others from modifying an article so as to effectively retain an exclusive right to edit an article, decide what content it shows, or otherwise dictate what an article states (that's also what ownership of literally anything entails). If you don't have clear evidence of an editor making such a statement or rolling back everyone's edits to an article, do not cite that policy. It is pointlessly inflammatory and I've personally found it annoying to be on the receiving end of that. Frankly, I don't know what experienced Wikipedian would actually believe that they have, or could possibly retain for any length of time, an exclusive right to anything on Wikipedia (the only exception would be the copyright to any CC-BY-SA-3.0-licensed article text that an editor contributes, as that is an exclusive right). Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• Read the other page discussions. There's little edit-warring in mainspace, because they've already slapped warning dialogs around to threaten some unspecific editing restriction. But on the talk: discussions, we keep looping through the same sequence. "There is a minor wording issue over a very minor topic, where the source does not use those literal words" – 'OK, what change is needed? Just do it' – "This source FAILS VERIFICATION so I've removed it altogether." – 'Don't do that. It means the content doesn't match, not that the source is bad' – "I'm going to delete the whole article again" – 'Why are you ignoring the ANI thread?'.

This is OWN, even if not in mainspace. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I have been thinking over my last post, and I have an example of QG responding to new editors. QG reverted the mostly-easily-salvagable edits, but spontaneously posted on the talk page with some explanation of why. This suggests to me that QG is willing to teach newcomers, but is not always using effective methods (in this case, the new editors did not engage). Sometimes QG has spent far longer getting me to fix problems than it would have taken for QG to fix them and post saying "You should have done this" (example); I think this is partly communications difficulties.

QuackGuru often adds very high densities of inline tags to content I've written, and insists that I fix the content. Some of the reasons behind the inline tags are trivial fixes, things you'd think would be easier to fix than to tag, but most of the problems QG points out are not obvious, and I find many debatable. Any fix I attempt is usually swiftly re-tagged, accompanied by talkpage posts that my changes have made the content even worse, and it would be best to delete the lot and start again. When I add templates criticizing content in articles in which QG takes an interest, QG has reverted the addition (invariably, as far as I can recall). QuackGuru occasionally reverts edits of mine that QG requested via inline tags (for instance, the addition of a large number of verifying quotes, accompanied by translations from the French and German, which took me some hours of editing time: 1, 2, 3).

I don't think this behaviour motivated by bad faith. QuackGuru believes that I lack the WP:CIR to edit, so I think the motive is to improve the content by protecting it from me, keeping me busy with makework until I move to another content area. This is logical and effective, in the short term. Taking the long-term consequences into account, though, it also turns editors wanting to work in this area into opponents instead of collaborators.

For me, this discussion is therefore not primarily about the podmod article (I've been uninvolved with it, apart from a point-of-information talkpage post in answer to a question), or any one article.

I'm a bit uncomfortable addressing all this in the third person. QuackGuru, I know you are reading, and I'm not intending to ignore you, slight you, or speak behind your back. I'd be happy to discuss the roots of our editing conflicts with you in another forum, including a more private one. HLHJ (talk) 15:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Propose ban

I've largely stayed out of this, but I've slowly come to the conclusion that QuackGuru is a lost cause. We should just WP:CBAN him and stop this endless time sink.

I made an attempt to work with him. See the Talk:Pod mod#Failed verification content thread. He questioned whether Research reveals potential health risks in aerosolizing nicotine salts and metal toxins that are produced was verified by the cited reference. I decided to investigate.

My first task was to find a copy of the reference, and discovered that it existed on-line, so I updated the reference to include the URL, and some other minor reformatting while I was at it. This earned me a complaint 10 minutes later that, The citation was formatted but that does not solve the FV problem. I continued to read the cited source and concluded that QuackGuru was correct; it did indeed not verify the claim made in the article, which I stated on the talk page. Amazingly enough, his response to my agreeing with him was yet another salvo.

Somewhere in there, he dropped a Template:Ds/alert on my talk page. What purpose this served other than an attempt at intimidation, I can't imagine. I've got a pretty thick skin, but I imagine most new editors would be scared by this and disengage. Which I assume is exactly the intended result.

Irksome habits like continually blanking their talk page, while not forbidden, certainly does make it more difficult to interact with them.

Every interaction between him and other editors that I've observed over the past few days is aggressive and just attempts to bludgeon the enemy into submission rather than engage in a productive discussion with them. It is good that they insist on correctness and verification through reliable sources, but they take it to such an extreme that nobody can work with them. This makes them a net negative to the project.

I count 19 blocks, spanning 12 years, for QuackGuru already. It's hard to imagine that any additional attempts at behavior modification will be any more successful than the past ones. It's time to cut our losses. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:12, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru has been very productive in Wikiproject Medicine articles...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru has done good work over the years. I agree with a fair number of the concerns they raised at the pod mod article. Their redirect with the claim that it is a "hoax article" however is not accurate and I would advise them to be more careful with their words. Not sure I see the issue with this notice.[88] I had a personalized notice placed upon my talk page about the existence of DS with respect to gun related issues a few days ago.[89] I took it as a useful FYI. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:16, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Doc James. Clearly some concerns raised here are valid, but just as clearly some are overstated. The volume and quality of QuackGuru's work is impressive. I agree they need to improve their collaboration. But a ban is over the top. Cloudjpk (talk) 20:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose ban QuackGuru operates in Wikipedia's most controversial medical spaces. I perceive QuackGuru to be an advocate for the consumer, medical journals, and WP:MEDRS standards. Most commonly QuackGuru is in conflict with editors who advocate for or sympathize with the position in alignment with corporate industries well known for aggressive propaganda in favor of harmful health practices. In this case we are talking about nicotine use where a billion-dollar industry is selling a drug with health effects and which is lobbying globally to control the conversation. Everyone who edits the Wikipedia nicotine articles will be read by a billion people including all journalists, lobbyists, doctors, policy makers, and the lawyers in the related lawsuits. The money tied up here is obscene considering that advocacy for science in this space has no budget, and in large part is defended by QuackGuru with support of others. When Wikipedia is the target of hundreds of paid lobbyists I expect missteps and misunderstandings from any volunteer editor. I do not perceive the problem here to be QuackGuru, but rather, the center of the problem is the topic itself and the infinite funding available to pay people to endlessly argue the minutiae of the topic to the limits of the Wikipedia process. Most people who edit here are not lobbyists but propaganda is in the heads of everyone who thinks about this topic and extreme caution is a useful norm for this space. QuackGuru knows the wiki bureaucracy and runs discussions and editing discussions by wiki process. I expect content in this space to move slowly and be more cautious than in other articles where a billion dollars and national economies are not the stakes of what Wikipedia publishes and which politicians read when they are making laws. If anyone enters such controversial topics then they should expect bureaucracy, be forgiving, move slowly, and feel free to call on mediation processes such as seeking comment from WikiProjects such as WP:MED or any lightweight process such as WP:3O. I understand why anyone would be frustrated in such unusual articles but this is how extreme controversy works on wiki. The environment is crazy and everyone who enters it will have to abandon some humanity and become a bit of a robot and bureaucrat. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose ban per Bluerasberry. It is regrettable that QG causes frustration but the topics are frustrating with conflicting interests colliding. I have not checked all relevant edits, but I have seen that QG is on the side of reliable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 23:53, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• And by implication, anyone who disagrees with him isn't? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:59, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
• He is on the side of the reliable sources that support his position, but resorts to all sorts of tricks to ignore or downplay those that don't! Johnbod (talk) 03:29, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose ban after reading the thread, the underlying issue is literally just a content dispute in a contentious topic area which has gotten out of hand. Content disputes in such subjects are not unexpected/infrequent and sometimes editors who are party to one − myself included − make errors in judgment. That is absolutely not a suitable justification for a site ban unless said error is particularly eggregious. Personally, I think everyone involved should just take a step back, take some time to cool off for a day or two, then come back to the table to discuss the issue and sort out the underlying problem. I don't think anyone who is a party to this dispute is currently acting in an appropriate manner for the purpose of dispute resolution; dispute resolution involves identifying underlying issues, correctly interpreting and applying relevant content policy, and trying to find common ground. In other words, take some time to cool off and make the effort to talk it out; do not neglect engaging in a discussion with all involved parties on a talk page or escalate further argument by making baseless inflammatory accusations pertaining to behavioral policies, applying unfaithful interpretations of content policy as justifications, or otherwise undermining the dispute resolution process. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - The basis for this complaint is invalid. There is quite literally nothing wrong with performing a unilateral blank-and-redirect in good faith, per both deletion and redirection policies. If such an act is contested, it can be reverted and discussed and proceed to dispute resolution, just like any other content dispute. As a matter of policy, and contrary to the OP's claims, it is not considered to be either disruptive or an inappropriate circumvention of deletion process. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 23:15, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Propose small measures applying to all parties

(originally part of ban discussion) QuackGuru is a bit of a Wikidragon, and does write large amounts of content. As BlueRaspberry points out, this is an area in which content is expected to move slowly, so QG's wish to make drastic changes causes more conflict. I do not see QuackGuru as always being on the side of the evidence: short example. However, I do not see this as sufficient reason to ban. I'd suggest the following remedies, all of which should apply to everyone in this topic area, not just QuackGuru:

• the same standards should apply to one's own edits as one applies to the edits of others. Editors should avoid COI by not removing templates criticizing their own content, unless they have a good-faith belief that the problem has been fixed (not the belief that it never existed).
• we should not template things that are easier to fix than to template.
• fv tags may be hard to understand. Inline tags in this topic area should have a informative |reason= parameter, and may be deleted if none is supplied by an editor aware of the need.
• all edits in this controversial area should initially be made incrementally. Only after incremental addition of content fails should an RfC be used to add the content. An RFC should not be started before the matter and the RfC question have been discussed on the talk page.
• any non-minor edits suggested by declared COI editors should seek talk page consensus before inclusion in the article.
• long reverts, especially reverts of several weeks of complex good-faith edits by multiple editors, should be clearly labeled as "reversion to version of [timestamp]". Discussion should not be avoided.
• it is not OK to follow the letter of rules, but circumvent their spirit. Misuses of process, such as getting a consensus for deleting an article in order to replace it with a version one has already written, should not be undertaken.
• in this controversial area, we should avoid doing things that curtail or hide talk discussions, such as needless discussion forking, manual archiving, and using WP:G7 to delete and immediately recreate pages.
• DS notifications, formal or informal, should not be repeated more than once a year, or made in a way that implies personal criticism or threat. Generally, the matter should only be raised with the formal template.
• per Wikipedia:Citation overkill, two or three citations may be used to support a single sentence. Per convention, different citations may be used to support different parts of the same sentence. Where it is simple, these citations should be separated so that it is obvious what section of the sentence they support (for instance, a citation at the end of each clause: Smith said X[1], and Jones said Y[2]). Where this would contort the sentence structure or otherwise impede readability, Template:Refn may be used to insert a note clarifying which fact comes from which source.

Is there anyone who feels that their editing would be seriously hindered by following these guidelines? HLHJ (talk) 15:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposed editing restrictions short of a ban

I don't think a ban as justified at the moment, but having read this thread its clear that QG's approach to editing in this is not without problems. Accordingly I think restrictions should of a topic ban should be tried first - I'm thinking perhaps in the eCigs topic area:

1. 1 revert restriction.
2. A revert of anything that is not self-evidently vandalism or a personal attack must be explained on the relevant talk page.
3. Prohibition on converting an article to a redirect. They may propose merging and/or redirecting on the talk page, and they may nominate for deletion.
4. Prohibition on moving any page to or from draftspace. They may propose doing so on the talk page.
5. No significant addition or removal of content without first getting consensus on the talk page.
6. No placing tags (including failed verification and citation needed) on an article without first either (a) rewording the content to match the source, and/or (b) attempting to find (alternative) sources that do verify the content. In all cases the actions must come with explanation that allows other editors to understand both what the problem is and the reason for it - including use of the reason= parameter. Thryduulf (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• support Andy Dingley (talk) 16:41, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
• oppose per reasons given in previous section by half a dozen editors, to restrict such a capable editor is not beneficial to anyone--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Being "capable" is not enough - you need to be able to work with others in a collaborative environment. Without restrictions QG is not, presently, able to do that per all the evidence in this and previous discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• Ive worked w/ QG on Vaping-associated pulmonary injury which is all over the news, there have been some 17 deaths(and cases here in the U.S. and Canada) we both worked together to form/create the best article with the current information available on this condition... that is being capable--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:48, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

• Unable to support "No significant addition or removal of content without first getting consensus on the talk page." Not clear what "significant" means. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
  • @Doc James: instead of throwing out the whole thing over a minor detail, propose either a way to determine what "significant" means or propose an alternative. This isn't dissimilar to the attitude that's causing many of the problems in this topic area. Thryduulf (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
    • User:Thryduulf I have received death threats via twitter and requests that my university fire me for my editing of e-cig content. To say it mildly this is a controversial topic area with editors with financial conflicts attempting to suppress concerns (to be clear I am not making this claim about anyone involved in this discussion currently). Well QuackGuru and I do not always agree we are generally able to find something we can both live with. Of your suggestions which I have numbered I would support the 6th (but I would support it for all involved). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
      • That is horrible. I'm sorry you are both dealing with death threats and intimidation. It says something that anyone edits in this area voluntarily.

Thryduulf, are you thinking of some limit on the proportion of the article, or number of facts, changed in a given period? I said "incremental" above, which is not much more concrete than "non-significant"; I meant changes submitted to the article as they are written, and not en-masse. Belatedly, I think there might a problem with WP:FIXED here. Reverting excessively large undiscussed edits is an option, but then the article still turns into a series of RfCs about warring versions, rather than a collaboration. I'd prefer RfCs about individual concepts of content, not entire articles; the discussion is apt to be more substantive, and the end article better. It might get us a bit farther from arguing over sourcing rules, and towards assessing balance of evidence. Maybe we could try presenting an argument for both sides in discussion, reciprocally? Sadly, I've found myself spending more time on the less content-concerned discussions, like this one, simply because they are more antagonistic and thus clamour for attention. HLHJ (talk) 03:51, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Why do you "prefer RfCs about individual concepts of content, not entire articles"? Is it because I proposed a draft and I gained consensus to replace the older versions with the expanded version? Read this comment: "there are so many problems with the main article that it is a bit shameful WP allows work like this to remain."[90] Editors were disappointed with the older version. User:Sunrise closed the RfC. See Talk:Heat-not-burn product/Archive_8#Older_versions_or_expanded_version. QuackGuru (talk) 04:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

@Doc James: I am not attempting to defend or downplay any of that behaviour from SPAs et al, it is indefensible, but none of that excuses the bad behaviour exhibited by QG. Proposal 6 (thanks for numbering them by the way, that is helpful) could indeed be applied to editors generally - and discretionary sanctions are authorised for the topic area. However I don't think that alone gets to the heart of the issues with QG's editing.
@HLHJ: I don't regard proportion of an article as a useful measure as it categorises rewriting two sentences of a one-paragraph stub is vastly more significant than rewriting two sentences of an article that is multiple pages long, yet the effect of the changes may be more significant on the latter (depending on the detail, obviously). Number of facts changed is a better measure, but again it depends on the detail - if you're updating figures to match the latest released version of statistics everyone agrees are relevant then that is really only one change despite many different facts being changed and in many circumstances wont be controversial. However changing just one fact by switching from one source to a different one could be very significant, especially if one or both are (allegedly) partisan. It really needs to be something like "does this materially change what is being said?" or "is the source used to verify what I'm adding/removing/changing controversial?" and if the answer is yes, then it's a significant change, and if the answer is no then it wont be in most circumstances.
@QuackGuru: RfCs only really work when the question being asked is focused and specific. This is almost always vastly easier to achieve when dealing with individual items of content than dealing with whole articles. The comment you quote is a good example of one that is unfocussed and woolly essentially to the point of being useless. Be specific - explain what the problem is, why its a problem, what would be better and why that would be better. Then do the same for the next problem. Thryduulf (talk) 09:55, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The HNB article was like a stub by my standard. There was little content in the lede and the writing was incoherent. My proposal was to expand every section of the article. HLHJ was still complaining about the article after I expanded it. The solution was to start specific RfCs to resolve the remaining disputes. There was a previous RfC that was malformed. See Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_7#RfC on solid tobacco heated using external heat sources. Those issues were unresolved. I eventually started RfCs to address the concerns. I left it up to the community to decide. See Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#IQOS_content and see other RfCs such as Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#Pyrolyse. QuackGuru (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

• oppose Agree with Ozzie10aaaa and Doc James. I also agree that QG has problem behavior. But this is not the solution. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:02, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
  • So what is? Thryduulf (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
    • I've added proposed editing restrictions for e-cigsCloudjpk (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nom. I personally don't want to see QG banned, and I think this is a reasonable stopgap measure. — Ched (talk) 10:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Doc James. I've had a fair bit of contact with QG. I won't deny QG can be a little stubborn and pedantic, but I've never had cause for a second to think he is biased. He genuinely has neutrality and the interests of the encyclopedia at heart and these proposed sanctions are an over-reaction. -- Begoon 10:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I too don't doubt QG's motives, but that doesn't mean his behaviour is not disruptive. Thryduulf (talk) 15:05, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Honestly, I think banning QG from ecigs would be a net positive for him and the project. Of all the editors with whom I agree (and I do agree with almost everything he writes), he is the closest I have come to asking for a siteban. Guy (help!) 11:21, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I am doing a fair amount of editing across multiple e-cig articles. There is bound to be some conflict with the amount of editing I have been doing. The RfCs helped resolve the issues. You closed two of the RfCs. See Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#WHO_claim and see Talk:Electronic_cigarette/Archive_31#Nicotine_and_Passive_vaping_sections. QuackGuru (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - As I said above, the complaint is invalid. There is quite literally nothing wrong with this user performing a unilateral blank-and-redirect, per both deletion and redirection policies. As a matter of policy, and contrary to the OP's claims, it is not considered to be either disruptive or an inappropriate circumvention of deletion process. It should be treated like any other content dispute, not dragged to AN/I. Looking at the above section, this was already pointed out, and the OP seems to be ignoring it. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposed editing restrictions for e-cigs

A key part of the problem is unsourced and failed verification content. Accordingly I suggest these restrictions on policy violations:

1. Prohibition on unsourced content. If there is no citation at the end of the claim it is considered unsourced content
2. Prohibition on failed verification content. If the citation does not completely verify the claim it is considered failed verification content.

Anyone violating these restrictions more than once in a one week period is topic banned. They would have to be warned about the first violation before they would be topic banned for the second violation.

• Support. Cloudjpk (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Missing the whole point. No-one is trying to push unverifiable content here. Rather QuackGuru is using that as a dogwhistle complaint against our normal standards for what really constitutes "unreliable" or "failed" sourcing. To implement this would be to also give them a tban-on-request stick against other editors, contrary to all our normal TBAN process. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
  • For almost all content related to nicotine, it is against our normal standards to add or restore "unreliable" sources and "failed" content. See WP:MEDCITE. QuackGuru (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Andy Dingley. There is no need to define unsourced content and/or failed verification any differently to the way it's done everywhere else on the encyclopaedia. Indeed, doing so would likely do more harm than good. Thryduulf (talk) 22:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
  • !00% of the content in Electronic cigarette is sourced and it is peppered with hundreds of MEDRS-compliant reviews. Following V policy is very simple, IMO. QuackGuru (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Support This is already the case everywhere. WP:V: Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. And it is a blockable offence to restore it without a valid source. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Support both 1 and 2. There are issues with unverifiable content being added and restored here. Recently sourced content has been replaced with failed verification.[91][92] There was a RfC about the safety content. See Talk:Electronic_cigarette/Archive_31#Safer_than_tobacco_claim. I started RfCs to deal with failed verification content. For example, see Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#Pyrolyse. If anyone feels that their editing would be seriously hindered by following verifiability policy then maybe they should not be editing this topic area. This will help with behavior modification and to cut our losses with repeat offenders. QuackGuru (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Repeated deletion of reliable sources for etymologies

I write plant articles and expand plant stubs. In the naming section of each article, I give the etymology of the plant's name. User:Wimpus does not agree with many and deletes the etymology and the reference from the articles that I,and others, have written.[93],[94], [95]. Despite being asked to stop deleting reliable sources and pleas from other editors to reach consensus[96] and here, Wimpus persists, claiming for example, that the sources have been "misinterpreted"[97] or "are quite unclear whether they refer with Greek..."[98] Any help with having this editor stop removing reliable sources would be appreciated. Gderrin (talk) 01:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Despite having made thousandths of etymological edits, explaining the Greek and Latin roots of Latin botanical words, Gderrin has admitted that he knows very little Latin and very little Greek. Therefore he does not recognize in multiple instance when he is using conflicting sources or when he is misinterpreting sources. But even worse, he makes things up. In my last five edits (see [99], [100], [101], [102], [103]) I had to remove etymological additions of Gderrin, in which he claimed that certain Latin or Greek words could be found in the source he used, while these words were not mentioned at all by the specific source. It is very difficult, due to his lack of knowledge on this topic, to explain to Gderrin, what is actually wrong with his edits. In our last two disputes (Talk:Caladenia oreophila and Talk:Caladenia callitrophila), he does not seem to understand what a compound is, nor the difference between Greek and Latinized Greek. Such knowledge is not a prerequisite for editors to edit on Wikipedia, but when your editing extensively on etymological sections of Latin botanical epithets, mistakes and misinterpretations are bound to happen. In the last few months I had to correct hundredths of mistakes made by Gderrin. Any help to prevent Gderrin from making unreliable etymological edits, would be appreciated. Wimpus (talk) 06:25, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

The context of this dispute is lacking in any third party involvement. I would find that the lack of seeking out a third party with knowledge of the area is seriously problematic. I would think that in wikipedia, the notion of negotiation or seeking a third opinion, seems to be so sadly lacking in this discussion. I think the test is someone with adequate knowledge of what is being discussed, otherwise one persons version against another is not what wikipedia is about - collaboration, consensus and cooperation to find others with sufficient background knowledge, otherwise it is a disservice to the involved parties, and the long suffering observers of this discussion. JarrahTree 06:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Also a careful and close reading of the talk page of User:Wimpus is required to adequately understand the 'space' that gives this current discussion some background. JarrahTree 06:57, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• It's important not to get bogged down here in the details of etymological edits. The issue is primarily about seeking consensus. I have interacted extensively with Wimpus in order to try to achieve a consensus on how to handle explanations of the meaning of scientific names (as can be seen from his talk page). Wimpus undoubtedly understands historical etymology, but does always seem to accept the need to try to reach consensus with editors of differing expertise – "experts" have no special dispensation here.
  There is a difficulty with some otherwise reliable sources giving "short cut" explanations of the origins and meaning of scientific names, which are not exactly wrong, but miss out details. For example, in scientific names, the component atr- usually has the meaning 'black', especially 'dark black'. It's ultimately derived from the Latin ater; the e disappears in compounds as is normal for second declension Latin adjectives ending in -er (the genitive is atri). I've found several otherwise reliable botanical sources that simply say something along the lines of "derived from the Latin atro (or atro-) meaning black", which is correct, but misses out steps. This leads to the WP:VNT conflict, which is difficult to resolve without maximum goodwill on all sides. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:35, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I disagree with the implied claim here that the principle of consensus requires prior discussion and seeking of consent in cases of simple, straightforward corrections (including removals) of edits that are just, simply, incontrovertibly wrong, as was the case in, for example, this edit. If you see an entry like that, and you have the expertise to understand why it's wrong, then the only correct thing to do is exactly what Wimpus did: remove it, with a matter-of-fact and informative edit summary. Accusing Wimpus of disruption for such edits is not appropriate. The onus here is clearly on the person who wants to reinsert such material to first get informed and understand why the entry may have been flawed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:46, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• Echoing Fut.Perf., using debating tactics (talking about consensus and so forth) is rather beside the point when factually incorrect information is involved. Would Gderrin please identify an edit by Wimpus that Gderrin knows removed correct information, or which added incorrect information. Please give reasons for how that is known. There are diffs above but I'm not talking about the fact that reverts occurred—the issue people should be concerned about is what is correct. Johnuniq (talk) 02:17, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
  • @Gderrin: I would like to know as well. If necessary, I can provide a long list with incorrect etymological edits made by Gderrin. Wimpus (talk) 07:53, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
    • It is not necessary for @Gderrin: or anyone else supplying an etymology to be a latinist or someone who reads Greek. It is sufficient to reference the etymological source. And if there is a conflict, then another editor may include the conflict within the article together with his or her source. Deleting referenced editing is generally an inappropriate action. MargaretRDonald (talk) 01:19, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
      • @MargaretRDonald: I would agree with you, in case the interpretation of a source would be straightforward and would not require any knowledge on the subject. But, in many cases, correct referencing of a source requires some (not much) basic knowledge.
        

In this edit, based on Stearn's Botanical Latin, you have stated:"valvis (valved), ". This is factually incorrect. As, I have an earlier edition of Stearn's Botanical Latin on my shelves, I was able to check the precise wording of Stearn and saw that you confused the word-forming element -valvis with the dative/ablative plural noun valvis. In case you oblivious to the difference between word-forming elements and dative/ablative plural nouns, such misinterpretations are bound to happen.

In another edit, based on Stearn's Botanical Latin, you have stated: "obtusifolia, meaning "obtuse or blunt leaves", which is factually also incorrect, as you translate a Latin adjective with a noun (=leaves). In case you would have interpreted Stearn's Botanical Latin correctly (and especially his translation of the word-forming element -folius as -leaved), you would have arrived at a different (correct) translation.

It is not my intend to discuss your edits in extenso, but I would like to make clear, that editing without any knowledge on the subject and not being able to fully comprehend in subsequent discussions the linguistic issues that are being discussed, can be detrimental to the reliability of Wikipedia. Wimpus (talk) 10:10, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your corrections @Wimpus:. I agree that yours are the better translations, in the two cases you have marked. However, the point with most of these botanical terms is that they are compounds, and in the creation of a compound such as "blunt-leaved" (or "with blunt leaves") "blunt" (adjective) describes the "leaf/ves" (noun) to give a latin compound which may be translated into English in several ways: "blunt-leaved" gives an English compound, while "with blunt leaves" or "having blunt leaves" also gives the sense of the latin compound. MargaretRDonald (talk) 10:35, 1 October 2019 (UTC) Correcting translations is fine/excellent. Deleting references is less satisfactory... MargaretRDonald (talk) 10:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Wimpus is undoubtedly right as regards the linguistics in the two cases above, although I think that calling the edits "factually incorrect" without any further qualification was not helpful. The important information for our readers – what the epithets fissivalvis and obtusifolia mean – is correct. The grammar was not – both epithets are compound adjectives not nouns, so (as MargaretRDonald wrote above) are best translated into English as either adjectives, like "split-valved" for fissivalvis, or as prepositional phrases, like "with blunt leaves" for obtusifolia. If I were marking the original edits, and I have taught and examined linguistics for computer science, I would take a mark off for lack of precision, but that's all. The relevance of this is that we are writing etymology for readers interested in the organisms, not for linguistics specialists, and in this context the important facts are correct. Maybe it's an issue with writing in a second language, but Wimpus could usefully be less confrontational. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:06, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

But there is a difference between "with obtuse leaves" and "obtuse leaves". The latter might even suggest that the "epithet" is a noun in apposition, to which different rules of the Code applies.

In these aforementioned two examples, I could easily remediate the incorrect translations by checking Stearn's Botanical Latin, but in the earlier-mentioned edit, in which Gderrin claimed that ancylosa is an ancient Greek word, while the word is not even mentioned by its source at all, the only proper thing I could do, was to remove the etymological information and its source. Of course, I have checked whether the source provided other relevant information pertinent to ancylosa, but without conducting questionable OR, I could not satisfactorily add this.

Information that is added to Wikipedia should correspond to the information as expressed in the source. And when an editor, in a subsequent discussion, can not answer basic questions considering this correspondence, and clearly misunderstands the information extracted from his source, it seem untenable to reinsert the contested edits over and over again. Wimpus (talk) 11:46, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

As Gderrin started this request to intervene, it would appreciate (and expect) if Gderrin would, as requested by Johnuniq, identify those edits in which I removed correct information or in which I added incorrect information. In case, Gderrin can not unequivocally provide such edits, I would like to ask the administrators whether it is possible to restrict Gderrin's rights to edit etymological sections.Wimpus (talk) 13:34, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

I stongly object to such a conclusion to the issues at this point in time, on the basis that GDerrin is unavailable until November as he is away from his usual computer contact. He is unable to respond to any specific issues at this time. In requesing WP:AGF perhaps this conversation may remain in abeyance, until his return to specifically respond to anything here. Also I would like to echo Peter coxhead's comment, a more relaxed and perhaps less confrontational attitude might help the discussion JarrahTree 14:20, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

So, Gderrin made a request to intervene on 01:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC), made his last edit in less then 48 hours (21:53, 28 September 2019 (UCT)) and then went on a Wiki-leave for a month, and did not respond to a single edit posted here? That seems inopportune. Wimpus (talk) 15:32, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

A significant number of editors find your attitude problematic, and in the end, regardless of the veracity your editing, the attitude is simply not very helpful for what wikipedia is WP:ABOUT - take the hint, to survive a community like this is not being simply right or wrong, but how you conduct yourself. There is a long history of former editors who were in fact right about something but simply never could get the other part right... JarrahTree 00:12, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I made my case at the start of this. “Correct” in this context, depends on what’s in the references, not on the opinion of a Wikipedia editor. Gderrin (talk) 01:32, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, I'll at least go through the cited diffs from the beginning:

• "That reference even uses the non-existing tricho as Greek form. So, that reference is not reliable for etymological information" I would need more explanation from Wimpus on what is wrong with this one, as I don't see the text using "tricho" as a Greek form. That text rather asserts 'trichos'. Hard to find anyone using that as a word, but I assume it's a transliteration of Greek τριχός (having hair). Our own Wiktionary (of course not a reliable source) also asserts a translingual and English prefix 'tricho-' as a derivative of Greek θρίξ (thrix, hair). But more importantly, I don't see in the cited pages where this text actually explicitly states the etymology of trichoglottis.

reponse Wimpus

begin

Gderrin uses two sources, i.e. Brown and Trin keys, for his etymology ("name Trichoglottis is derived from the Ancient Greek words trichos meaning "hair" and glottis meaning "tongue" referring to the hairy labellum in the type species, T. retusa.")

Brown does not mention the full compound Trichoglottis, but only explains the single words. Gderrin conducts OR when he explains this full compound based on Brown. Brown however does not mention glottis on p. 466. More importantly, Brown translates glottis with "mouth of the windpipe" (p. 538: "Gr. glottis, -idos, f. mouth of the windpipe") and not with "tongue". "Tongue" can be found on p. 805 in Brown as: "Gr. glossa (glotta), f. tongue".

In his description "Gr. glottis, -idos, f. mouth of the windpipe")" Brown provides two forms of glottis, i.e. glottis and glottidos. The first is the nominative case, the second the genitive case, that means "of the mouth of the windpipe". The translation "mouth of the windpipe" only applies to the nominative case. It is quite common to provide in dictionaries for so-called consonant stems, besides the nominative case also the genitive case, as the genitive case includes the final letter of the stem (stem of glottis is glottid-), while that is obscured in the nominative case. For "trichos" we can find in Brown on p. 392: "Gr. thrix, trichos, f. hair". Here we can see that Brown similarly provides a second form "trichos", besides the nominative case "thrix". Gderrin only mentions this genitive case and not the nominative case, while the translation "hair" only applies to the nominative case. That is quite confusing and in contrast with using glottis (nominative) and not glottidos (genitive case) for glottis. So, it seems the Gderrin merely randomly picks one of these two cases.

In Trin keys, we can find: "Trichoglottis, which is derived from the Greek thrix, tricho, hair and glotta, tongue, refers to the pubescent labellum in the type species." First of all, that source uses glotta for tongue, not glottis. The part "Greek thrix, tricho, hair" is confusing, as we would expect trichos, the genitive case, when a second form is presented. But tricho is not the genitive case. They are merely mistaken and used a non-existing word. Maybe they referred to the word-forming element tricho- (that has to be written with a hyphen, to indicate that it is not a full word).

To summarize:

1. Gderrin uses Brown to explain the full compound Trichoglottis, while this compound is not mentioned by Brown at all.

2. Gderrin refers to glottis with a reference to Brown, while Trin keys mentions glotta instead.

3. Gderrin refers to the wrong page in Brown for glottis.

4. He provides the wrong translation of glottis that actually belongs to glossa (glotta) in Brown. Although he may have used selectively, the translation of Trin keys for glotta instead, although he refers directly to Brown.

5. Gderrin mentions for thrix, only the genitive case, while the translation applies to the nominative case in Brown. For glottis he mentions the nominative case.

6. Gderrin uses two sources that seems to be clearly in conflict. Trin keys even provides a Greek word, that is actually not a word at all.

This long list demonstrates, that Gderrin confuses various things, makes serious mistakes in referencing sources and conducts OR.Wimpus (talk) 09:06, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

end

• "No, the source states that giant would be Greek. No, you have left that out and you actually acknowledging that not all the infomration provided by this site is correct. So plwase, do not use this site." Indeed, the source asserts that 'gigant' is Greek, a claim for which I can find no support.

reponse Wimpus

begin

I have made a mistake here. I thought (in this edit) that the source was writing "giant" instead of "gigant". I saw a pseudo-Greek form in the text of the source and concluded that it was not in correspondence with the real Greek gigas (γίγας). As you acknowledge, "gigant" is not Greek either. Later, I checked the original source of the describing authors and changed the etymological information accordingly. The Euclid-site, that was used as source by Wiki-editor Hughesdarren merely misread the original publication.Wimpus (talk) 09:06, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

end

• "removed incorrect etymology that is partly derived from the Euclid site, that is not very reliable for etymological information. The form stylis was used on Euclid, while style was written here. But is this really Latin or merely Greek στυλίς." I think Wimpus looks over a more severe problem, that one of the sources for the alleged etymology predates the description of the taxon.

reponse Wimpus

begin

This etymology ("The specific epithet (brevistylis) is from the Latin words brevis meaning “short” and style.") was added by Gderrin in this edit.

1. Gderrin refers to two "Latin" words brevis and style. Style is actually English for botanical Latin stylus (that is derived from classical Latin stilus according to Stearn's Botanical Latin (1983)).

2. Gderrin uses for style the Euclid-site, but this site mentions not style, but stylis ("Eucalyptus brevistylis: Latin brevis, short and stylis, style."). The form stylis is however inconsistent with the form stylus as mentioned by Stearn's Botanical Latin.

Again, incorrect referrencing and use of a source that seems to be at odds with more reliable sources. Wimpus (talk) 09:06, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

end

• "Misinterpretation of sources." Indeed, I agree with that assessment.

reponse Wimpus

begin

Gderrin's etymology: "The specific epithet (callitrophila) is derived from the name of cypress pines in the genus Callitris with the Ancient Greek ending -philus meaning "loving"."

1. On p. 498 of Brown we can not find the ending -philus. We can find on the same page "philos, beloved, dear", but that has -os and not -us and it is not using a hyphen. So, it seems that Gderrin is misquoting Brown.

2. No words in ancient Greek are known that end on -philus, as that is actually written as -philos (-φιλος).

3. In Short and George we can find: "-philus (adj. A, in Gk comp.) loving". It seems that they are suggesting that -philus is actually Greek, which is easily disproved by the link to Liddell & Scott. But I do think that Short and George are using the label Gk to refer to words that are "Greek-derived" and not "ancient Greek forms" per se. I can not find the phrase "ancient Greek" in Short and George and I do not see clear evidence in Short and George that they really mean "ancient Greek" when using "Gk". Gderrin interprets the label "Gk" in George and Short as "ancient Greek", but can not quote directly from Short and George to support his interpretation.Wimpus (talk) 09:06, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

end

Okay, so given those examples, I agree with all of Wimpus' reverts presented. I also have to ask if it is the norm in etymologies to invent one by comparing the name of a taxon to a list of Greek words. I understand this is a fun exercise, but I question whether this practice can ever fundamentally satisfy WP:V in the absence of a source explicitly stating "this is the etymology of the name of this specific taxon". Especially if you're going to go into the minutia of which form of a word from which language was the root. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:19, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Someguy1221 for your analysis. I am editing this on a phone in a remote area with poor connectivity and have no books with me. (Trying to get plant images.) Apologies for this cryptic response. 1. Trichoglottis - the etymology is in the ref cited “Derivation of name”; 2. E. gigantangion- The etymology is from the authors of the species’ formal description; 3. E. brevistylis was described in 1974. None of the references predates that. Gderrin (talk) 05:24, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Although some compounds/epithets could be interpreted straight-forwardly there are numerous cases, in which a compound is less easily interpreted. When Gderrin is conducting OR-etymologies based on Brown, he arrives in many cases at different conclusions, than other editors would do, based on Brown. This is quite detrimental to Wikipedia. As my respons has shown, Gderrin frequently makes mistakes, misread Brown or other sources, confuses words and word-forming elements, randomly picks the nominative or genitive case, seems to find specific words in Brown that are not really there, does not seem to notice that he is using conflicting sources, confuses ancient Greek and Latinized Greek et cetera. His current response shows, that he does not seem to understand what he is actually doing wrong. He repeatly states that he is only referrencing sources, but does not seem to understand that a lot goes wrong, when he is "only" referrencing sources. My statements and wording might be too confrontational. English is my second language and I might lack the English language skills to phrase it less confrontationally. Otherwise, as Gderrin is a prolific editor, this problem is so wide-spread, that we can not ignore this. We should not value the right of Gderrin "to have fun with inventing etymologies" of more importance than the reliability of Wikipedia. Wimpus (talk) 09:06, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

References

@Gderrin: considering your response of 05:24, 2 October 2019 (UTC):

ad 1: That is not true, as Brown nor Trin keys indicate that Trichoglottis is derived from trichos and glottis. Trin keys does not mention trichos and glottis at all.

ad 2: That is also not true, as I have demonstrated that the authors use gigas instead and not gigant, that is merely an error on the Euclid-site.

ad 3: Brown's book is from 1956, while Eucalyptus brevistylis was described in 1974. Although the form and meaning of brevis has not changed in the intermediate 18 years, Brown however does not mention the full epithet brevistylis.

In the meantime I have found brevistylis on p. 608 of Brown: "Osmorrhiza brevistylis (sweet cicely)", but he does not give a translation of brevistylis and he does not make clear to which word brevistylis can be linked. Wimpus (talk) 11:28, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

We should thank Someguy1221 (!!!!) for checking the diffs. But Gderrin; wouldn't that be your task? You are accusing me of making inappropriate edits, but you seem to refuse to provide evidence when asked. Wimpus (talk) 10:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

The references trin.org and euclid/CANBR are reliable (published) sources and should not have been removed. Gderrin (talk) 23:26, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Even if we assume for the sake of argument that those sources are reliable, I do not believe you have provided a convincing explanation for how the content removed by Wimpus was actually supported by what was cited. When your argument includes the obviously false claim that none of your sources predate the content for which they are cited (like citing a 1956 book for the origin of the name of a species described in 1974), it is difficult to take anything you say at face value. I would honestly have trouble believing you at this point without the provision of a direct quote from each source to convince me you are not misreading, which also saves me the time of having to find and evaluate a source myself. I have deliberately not addressed whether there is any behavioral issue on Wimpus' part, but if he is edit warring or refusing to accept consensus in the face of obvious mistakes and original research, it is quite understandable. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:04, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I have tried to be succinct. That does not appear to have worked.

• ’’Trichoglottis’’ Trin keys gives “‘’Trichoglottis ‘’, which is derived from the Greek ‘’thrix, tricho’’ hair and ‘’glotta’’ tongue. I added “derived from ‘’trichos’’”. That derivation was removed because “that reference is not reliable for etymological information.” Trin keys is a reliable (published) source. The derivation should not have been removed. Removing the letter ‘s’ would have been acceptable.
• ‘’E. gigantangion’’

Euclid gives “Greek ‘’gigant’’ a giant and ‘’aggeion’’ a vessel or receptacle.” That derivation was removed with a long edit summary ending “So please do not use this site.” Euclid is a reliable source.

• ’’E. brevistylis’’ Euclid gives “Latin ‘’brevis’’ short and ‘’stylis’’ style.” That derivation was removed because “...the Euclid site is not very reliable for etymological information.”

The Euclid/CANBR/CSIRO is a reliable (published) source.

These are articles about plants. The derivation is to inform readers of the meaning of the epithet. In these three cases, and in a large number of others, the meaning was deleted, along with the reference, in spite of the meaning subsequently being apparently accepted as correct. ‘’Trichoglottis’’ “hair, tongue”; ‘’gigantangion’’ “giant vessel”; ’’brevistylis’’ “short style”.

Someguy1221 - If by “I would honestly have trouble believing you”, you are suggesting I am dishonest, then discussion with you is pointless. If that is not the implication, I suggest you might choose your words more carefully. Gderrin (talk) 00:39, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your responses. Below, please take note that I am not offering an opinion in a content dispute, and saying that one person is right and one person is wrong. My goal is to explain whether or not certain edits are disruptive, which requires me to analyze whether they are reasonable. A series of eminently reasonable actions would not be considered disruptive and would not require administrative attention.

• 1. Trichoglottis: If you were using Trin for the etymology, you should not have been citing Brown at all. There is also an inherent problem with Trin in that it claims tricho- to be Greek, which it is not. It is derived from Greek. I can imagine reasonable arguments for both inclusion and deletion, but this removal had a very good reason and should not be considered disruptive. This can be resolved through dispute resolution.
• 2. E. gigantangion: "gigant" is not Greek, which almost immediately makes the removal reasonable. I also think that declaring Euclid to be unreliable is a reasonable reaction to seeing a source claim a word to be Greek that is not.
• 3. Eucalyptus brevistylis: If you're citing CANBR for the etymology, you should not be citing Brown at all. Also, the specific revert referred to was removing text that, as written, implied "style" to be a Latin word. While this could have been corrected instead of deleted, given that I've already conceded there is a reasonable argument to be made that CANBR/Euclid is not reliable, combined with the use of Brown, this was a reasonable action.

In conclusion, I cannot find anything disruptive in the diffs presented. Every edit pointed to as an example of a problem requiring administrative attention in fact requires none. These are ordinary content disputes, and they can be resolved by dispute resolution. CANBR/Euclid or other sources can be taken to WP:RSN if there is a debate over its reliability for etymologies. And as with assessing the reasonableness of the edits, please don't mistake this for me making an argument that these sources are unreliable. I'm saying that Wimpus' position is reasonable, and should not be considered evidence of bad faith or otherwise disruptive behavior. As far as I am concerned, the only thing you have demonstrated is that Wimpus frequently disagrees with you. As for honesty, you have never addressed why you are citing Brown (1954) for etymologies of species described after that book was published. In one case you cited him for a word he never uses, and in the others, you use it to define components mentioned in another source, which could be reasonably argued to be a form of original research.

I am being very sincere when I say cannot honestly take anything you say at face value until that gets an explanation, since you blew past the issue and denied it exists, while anyone can plainly see in several diffs a 1954 source cited for the etymology of species described much later. If your explanation is going to be that you were not citing it for the etymology, but for the definition of a word used in another source, you could have provided that explanation (still a problem that the position of the footnote explicitly gives Brown as the source of the etymology itself) instead of just saying None of the references predates that. It was never my intention to imply I think that you are dishonest. But it cannot escape notice that you made a statement that is not true. Whether that resulted from a mistake in remembering, or looking at the wrong diff, or misunderstanding the question I had posed, (or actually being dishonest), it leads to the same result: I am no longer able to believe that what you say is true without proof.

Regardless, and I also mean this very honestly, if this was your best case for arguing that Wimpus is being disruptive, I suggest simply dropping the issue, and dealing with any lingering disputes through the ordinary venues. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:15, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Someguy1221, thank you for your patience. You might understand that I am still doubting in various other cases whether the etymological information that is added by Gderrin truly reflects its sources. I do not have access to each single source Gderrin is using, but I have noticed numerous times, that he is claiming that something is ancient Greek, while evidently it is not. I think it would be better if Gderrin would cease adding etymological information and would check/double-check all his previous etymological edits and in case of doubt, would remove them. But I doubt whether Gderrin would cease voluntarily his etymological editing. Is requesting a topic-ban the only solution? Wimpus (talk) 05:47, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

The whole issue about incorrect information and conflicting sources regarding Trichoglottis, was already discussed earlier on my talk-page with Gderrin (see here), but without any succes. I have difficulties to belief that discussions with Gderrin will prevent such errors to happen. Wimpus (talk) 05:59, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Aspersions by Jamie Tubers at User talk:Haylad

Can an uninvolved administrator take a look at the behavior of User:Jamie Tubers at User talk:Haylad? He is casting aspersions at various administrators, saying that they are part of a cabal dedicated to punishing and keeping a user blocked. When I asked him to confirm whether he was accusing me of being part of this cabal, he said "I wasn't accusing you in particular. But yea, I see signs of some group revenge action ..." So, apparently, I'm not being accused "in particular", but, yes, there's evidence. Simply because I asked a user a question politely and thanked him for his answer. Someone then pinged me at the talk page, asking me to return to the conversation and review the unblock request. I asked people to stop pinging me from that page and declined to get further involved the drama. In response, Jamie Tubers pinged me again, and doubled down on the bad faith accusations of a cabal. Can someone please block Jamie Tubers or at least give him a one-way interaction ban against me? I don't want to deal with this person. I am a volunteer, and I don't like the idea of being browbeaten into responding to an unblock request. If I think a disruptive editor is making my life difficult, I shouldn't have to deal with repeated demands from that person that I take an admin action. This is in addition to the clear personal attacks that Jamie Tubers is making against TonyBallioni and Huon. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:37, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the cabal also supposedly includes TheSandDoctor and Ponyo. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:44, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Considering that yesterday I was told I was incompetent and told to hand in the mop & resign, I consider editors complaining about admins to be an unfortunate part of the job. Unless he is coming to your user talk page, I think you should just take Haylad's talk page off your watchlist, if it was on yours. Log off and do something enjoyable for the rest of the day/night. Let someone else review that unblock request. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:18, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

The page is not on my watchlist. That's the whole point. I can't do what you said, because people are pinging me from that page and demanding that I return to it! And, yes, it has started to spill over into my user talk page, though that request is very polite and reasonable. So, no, I can't just ignore this drama. It is following me around on Wikipedia, and I'm getting pinged by random people when I try to ignore it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:38, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Treating it as “just part of the job” is the reason people think it’s acceptable and why we have so many admins who either burn out or completely stay away from the difficult areas where they are needed most. This conduct was unacceptable, especially from a member of the Ombudsman Commission, who should know better. I’m not sure if a block is needed now, but at the very least he should be given a formal warning. TonyBallioni (talk) 12:52, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

• I was the blocking admin. I believe that it was a "good" block within policy, however, I will support an uninvolved administrator's judgement of this case. I cannot review it myself as I consider myself involved and am apparently part of the "cartel" supposedly conspiring against this user, as it was stated/by implication. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 06:34, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

  I suppose the unblock cartel cabal is one of those double-secret things we don't talk about. Anyway, I've expressed an intention on the talk page to independently review the unblock request. Hopefully this will reduce the pings, or at least redirect them to me, hopefully negating any need for any other actions. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 06:57, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

• I'm obviously involved, but Jamie Tubers' behaviour on that page is beyond the pale. Pinging someone right after they asked not to be pinged on that page is harassment, and Jamie Tubers should know better. That's not even taking into account all the other WP:NPA violations. I'm of a mind that we should treat those just like other violations of policy instead of arguing that there are policies that just aren't worth enforcing if it's an experienced editor breaking them. Would we be similarly lenient if we had an experienced editor who would every now and then violate WP:COPYVIO or WP:BLP in the same way? Huon (talk) 08:02, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
• IMO pinging someone when they've told you to stop is not that different from coming to someone's talk page when they've asked you to stay away. Jamie Tubers really needs to cut that out and if they don't we can force them to by blocking. While editors can turn off notifications, they shouldn't have to just because someone refuses to stop pinging when they've been asked not to. (Note that I treat pinging different from simply mentioning someone since that can get complicated.) Nil Einne (talk) 08:06, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

  Should clarify that I'm not saying the rants were okay but I also agree with Liz that regardless of whether we should, we tend to accept some minor abuse and rants over administrators and so it's less clear whether this has clearly crossed that line. One additional factor here is that I think it's clear Jamie Tubers' actions are harming not helping Haylad. Nil Einne (talk) 08:13, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

That Haylad was unhappy about the block and the talk page conversation is indeed expected, and I haven't complained that he describes me in such terms as "unjust" or "unfair" or accuses me of systematic bias against African editors (based on no evidence whatsoever, of course). That is the kind of daily abuse that comes with being an administrator. Jamie Tubers doesn't have that excuse, and the last time I checked, WP:NPA doesn't have an exception that says admins are fair game. Huon (talk) 12:16, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

• First of all, I haven't made any personal attacks at you. That is very obvious from my interactions with you. Second of all, your exact phrase on the talk page was: "I'm not really interested in answering pings on this talk page any more". I have no idea how that translates to "No one should ping me anymore". With that said, I actually pinged you to reply you, simply because you DIRECTLY accused me of influencing your actions, and I had to respond to that. Seriously, I am not interested in having to deal with you either. Canvassing for me to get blocked because I responded to your accusations is a reach....and if admins here actually obliged you... Oh well... I wouldn't be exactly surprised. That would make me the next victim, hey.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 19:18, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

• You seem to have a decent understanding of English and are also a highly experienced wikipedian. So I don't see how you can fail to interpret "I'm not really interested in answering pings on this talk page any more" as having the clear implication "do not ping me on this talk page any more". Replying to someone is complicated, and by itself I'm not willing to fault you on that but there was absolutely zero reason to ping someone who had said they did not want to receive pings/did not want to answers ping. Also AFAICT, no one has explicitly said you made personal attacks against NinjaRobotPirate although you did make that questionable "wasn't accusing you in particular. But" comment. People have said you made personal attacks against Huon and TonyBallioni. We can deal with multiple different actions by you against different users here. There's no reason why they need to be restricted to your actions against one editor. Nil Einne (talk) 04:23, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

• At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there are actually many varieties of English across the world. Where I come from; when people express that they are not interested in answering calls, it means that they want to snub other people from their own end (i.e literally not responding to the calls). It's not considered a request for other people to stop making calls to them.. But then again; it's also ironic to tell someone not to ping you, but you then lay accusations on them in the same sentence.

I didn't make personal attacks on those admins either. I made observations on the way they handled the case. If I found behaviours of admins to be questionable, I am allowed to state it and of course back it up with reasons. I did exactly that on the block talkpage. These admins never gave reasons to why they continually shifted goalposts of the Block reasons (most of which were actually unfounded). And all of that drama happened just because a user created a page which got speedily deleted....and then the user was bold enough to ask for Deletion review and got the deletion overturned. Lo and behold....the admins decided to open a full SPI case on the user and blocked him! - wrongly! If this series of actions were done by regular editors, it would pass as stalking.

I have seen too many cases of administrators behaving this way and it doesn't help the encyclopaedia! Most especially, when you do it to new editors. I dare say, if I wasn't involved in the discussion, these admins would only wear out the user and not unblock him at the end of the day. I have seen this play out over and over. The admins just assume the worst faith (as they tried to do on the Haylad issue), without any concrete evidence.. So, miss me with "Your involvement wasn't helpful". Before I got involved, They declined his unblock request TWICE! He didn't say anything new on the third unblock request, which got him unblocked....*after my involvement*. So.......yea. I can only hope that User:Haylad is not being closely monitored to be trapped into another block. Because, well....it often plays out this way.

We wonder why the number of active editors keeps dropping on Wikipedia, but we don't see that we do have a group of overtly sensitive administrators who do not want their authorities questioned....but ironically feel it is pretty cool to block people without basis, and even when the user tries his best to prove his innocence, they just keep coming up with other petty accusations, instead of just accepting they made an initial wrong judgement and even apologise for it.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 14:34, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jamie Tubers: You have had your say. Please do not contact or ping NinjaRobotPirate again in relation to this matter, and stop referring to them. Continuing after the issue has been aired at ANI would indicate a determination to attack another editor, and that may very well lead to a block. Johnuniq (talk) 01:12, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• I never contacted them. A ping will obviously will not happen again, since they've made their actual request clear on this ANI. I'm not sure what you mean by "stop referring to them", but while this case is still open, there might be valid reasons to refer to them within the context of this issue. So that might not work out.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 23:45, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

NewsAndEventsGuy

I feel bullied and harasssed by the user through continuous construed warnings and unnecessary notices on my talk page here and here and here. Four times I've now asked h to stay off my talk page, but that is ignored as excuses are found to continue to try to exert power over me there. Administrative assistance is need to determine whether or not I am being too sensitive and whether or not special arbitration matters re: the article Greta Thunberg are being abused in this case for the purpose of bullying and persecution outside the actual interests of those arbitration decisions. Some of the input reads as if I had criticized and attacked this user personally in connection with the Thunberg article and as if I (while hoping for a more NPOV there) do not respect the sensitivity of that article. None of that is real. In any case, since 2008 I've never seen anyone disregard 3 requests for someone to stay away from a user's talk page. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:05, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Please stand by for my request of community-imposed WP:BOOMERANG sanctions of a 24 block of SergeWoodzing NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:07, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

This is about repetitious reprimands on my talk page, not about the infected Greta Thunberg discussions. It now appears that they have been a device to try to get me blocked. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:09, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

(Multiple EC) You're an experienced editor. I assume you should know that generally speaking, when an editor asks you to stay away from their talk page, this should be respected except for essential notices. From what I see, this request came first [104] and your reply was frankly unnecessary [105] but I'll give you one acknowledgement of the request. In case the request to stay away wasn't clear, there was another here [106] Yet despite this, only ~20 days later you posted this [107] and then this [108]. And to top it off, after a third request to stay away [109] you post this [110]? There was absolutely no reason to. If there are problems with SergeWoodzing's editing and they're rejecting your help, you can bring a case to ANI etc. You can point to your earlier attempts to engage SergeWoodzing and the request to stay away as evidence you did your best to engage with the editor first, but couldn't because they rejected your help. Content issues etc can be dealt with in article talk pages like always. Nil Einne (talk) 12:32, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Just noticed someone else referred to NewsAndEventsGuy here [111] before this reply of theirs [112]. So okay I'll put that one aside. It still was unnecessary especially given that they already had 2 requests. A better alternative was that NewsAndEventsGuy could have approached the other editor directly and explained the situation to them. Separately, SergeWoodzing should also have asked that editor to remove any reference (direct or implied) to NewsAndEventsGuy. (To be clear, it's inappropriate allow discussion of an editor on your talk page if you've asked said editor to stay away.) I would add that since NewsAndEventsGuy was not pinged, I have zero idea how they became aware they'd been referred to within about 4 minutes on SergeWoodzing's talk page. NewsAndEventsGuy should not be watching the talk page of SergeWoodzing when they've been asked to stay away. Even if they wanted to be aware of any AN//I threads opened on SergeWoodzing, this is surely not a good way to handle it. Anyway putting that all to one side, none of this justifies the other followups. Particularly not the completely unnecessary reply to the third request. Nil Einne (talk) 12:46, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

One final comment, if there are genuine problems with SergeWoodzing's editing, and frankly from what I've seen I think there is, this is even more reason why what you've done here is dumb. We should be discussing problems with SergeWoodzing's editing. Instead we're discussing your refusal to stay away from their talk page when asked. You could have avoided that simply by staying away and opening a case. Nil Einne (talk) 16:31, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh, I'm definitely deserving of receiving template:trout for being dumb, and on a regular basis. However, in this case, I'm going to plead an attempt at assertive kindness. I really really really dislike the drama boards and putting someone else through the grinder. Especially when I believe the issue is WP:CIR, as is the case here. But the cat's out of the bag, so.... here we are... I'll go back to reviewing SW's history which I thinks supports my opinion but I am still self-banned until I have my reply ready. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:42, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

• You both have clear block logs. Let that sink in for a moment. Neither one of you has posted diffs showing the other damaging an article, so I'm inclined to dismiss this matter. My strong recommendation is to avoid each other. If you have a problem with the other editor, come to my talk page and let me know. Or find some other administrator. Greta Thunburg will be fine without your help. Consider unwatching that page for a few weeks if you find the happenings there stressful. NewsAndEventsGuy, you have indeed been asked four times to stop going to SergeWoodzing's talk page. Please do not post there again for any reason. Go to a third party if this limitation is being gamed. Thank you. Jehochman ^Talk 12:30, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

(Multiple EC) SergeWoodzing, it would help a great deal if you'd post diffs including of your requests so it's easier for use to see. But anyway I've posted them above now. I wouldn't oppose an immediate block of NewsAndEventsGuy for harassment since they've been clearly told to stay away from SergeWoodzing's talk page multiple times but refuse to. As I said above, they're an experienced editor and should know better. Barring that, I suggest a final warning to NewsAndEventsGuy. I've not yet seen anything to justify a boomerang. Nil Einne (talk) 12:32, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

It's quite possible I do not comprehend the requirements at WP:ARBBLP#DECORUM to which we of which we are both "aware". I'm prepared to show Serge, who is site-banned from the Swedish wikipedia, habitually tells people to get lost instead of working with the DR procedures. I offered to DR earlier in Sept and was told what I could with myself. "Immediate ban"??????? In under 60 minutes without a realistic chance to explain myself? How about I just don't edit until I prep my actual reply? Thats sufficiently time consuming that it will have the same practical effect as a block. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:45, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Your reply is almost definitely irrelevant to my support of a block. Whatever wrong SergeWoodzing has done, it doesn't justify your atrocious harassment. When someone asks you to stay away from their talk page, just stay the heck away. It's simple. As I said, if there are problems with SergeWoodzing requiring administrative attention, then open a case somewhere relevant. Hey in that case you even have an acceptable reason to post on their talk page to notify them. Otherwise stop annoying them on their talk page when you've been told to stay away. It helps no one. They're clearly not interested in what you're saying or taking it onboard so there's no purpose to post there. I admit I missed that you'd been pinged for the reply to the IP as per below but ultimately this doesn't change the equation much since in the end you had multiple opportunities to deal with things in a different way but persisted in unnecessarily posting on someone's talk page when asked to stay away. Nil Einne (talk) 16:11, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

If you were aware of SergeWoodzing's discussion with Domdeparis, that is the only reason I can see that would change my mind about your persistence. Although even in that case, I still would have expected you to ask them about it rather than just keep posting. Maybe there are other reasons but your initial reply didn't give me confidence. You seemed to be talking about what SergeWoodzing had done wrong, but that doesn't justify what you did wrong. (It may justify a block of SergeWoodzing, but that's a different issue.) Nil Einne (talk) 16:22, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

For the record... I had never seen SW before meeting at the GT BLP earlier this year. As best as I recall my ONLY exposure to SW has been at that venue and our talk pages. And until your note I don't think I'd ever heard of Domdeparis. You still haven't heard my full story, which takes time to assemble, and I'm voluntarily self banning until I complete it. I thought that "CIR" applies a little bit before today's events, just from the GT page and associated discussions, but my opinion has solidified since this all seems like calling an airtanker when a cotton ball catches fire. I continue to draft a reply in my Sandbox5 if you care to peek. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk)

(edit conflict)::I agree that NesAndEvensGuy should stay of the other editor's page. I wouldn't support a block. SergeWoodzing's first request for him to stay off his page included an accusation of bullying that I don't think was warranted.[113] I think he probably over-reacted to the DS alert. NewsAndEventsGuy's post to SergeWoodzing/s page yesterday was in response to a ping, which turns out to have been from an IP. Doug Weller talk 12:49, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

I noticed the IP ping, which was concerning. NewsAndEventsGuy, are you active on Swedish Wikipedia? If so, can you post a link showing where SergeWoodzing is banned from there? That seems like relevant context. Jehochman ^Talk 12:55, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

The IP Ping is a random IP from out of the blue. What really happened is that en ed who has previously labeled me a bully over a content dispute went to SW's talk page and cast aspersions at me without notifying me that I was under discussion. But since I had the page watchlisted, I saw that. Full chronology of the lead up to todays drama is at top of my user subpage Sandbox5, if you want to peek. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:47, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

request linkYger (talk) 13:07, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Apologies I missed the ping. I still don't consider this a good response especially given it was coming so hot on the heels of the previous post. Really there was little justification for the 19:23, 29 September 2019 (UTC) comment. If NewsAndEventsGuy had wanted to post something, they should have just said, 'please don't discuss me here as I'm banned' although as I said it would be far preferable to simply approach that editor directly and leave SergeWoodzing's talk page the well alone. And I still don't get why NewsAndEventsGuy even saw MartiniShaw's comment.

But even if we forgive that unnecessary post, once the IP pinged it needed to stop. Again, the best course was simply to directly approach the IP. But if NewsAndEventsGuy really felt the need to comment on SergeWoodzing's talk page they really need to simply say 'please stop pinging or discussing me since I'm banned from here' or similar rather than their comment at 09:30, 30 September 2019 (UTC). And of course, whatever we say about the other comments, there is still the 11:30, 30 September 2019 (UTC) one. There was absolutely no need for that.

I do agree that SergeWoodzing seems to have overreacted, and in fact before I looked carefully at the time stamps I was going to say that I'm not willing to fault someone leaving a DS notice even if they'd been asked to stay away from another editor's talk page. But ultimately plenty of people banning someone from their talk page have likely overreacted. We still expect these to be followed within reason.

I mean at most, one post from NewsAndEventsGuy trying to explain themselves and suggesting SergeWoodzing had overreacted may be tolerated. Not 2 along with another 2 unnecessary posts just because you were pinged or mentioned. It's clear that SergeWoodzing wasn't getting the message, just getting more and more annoyed so that helped no one. Ultimately if SergeWoodzing refuses to accept help it's their funeral. I will equally give short shrift to someone who violates our policies or guidelines and tries to complain that people didn't explain the problems to them when they didn't let them.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:02, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Jehochman: the main discussion was here.[114] His talk page where the block was placed is here.[115] One of the reasons was violation of their 'Etiquette" policy, which is similar to our WP:CIVIL. I note that it says that those violations "affected a wide range of other users, including those that are noticeably non-confrontational". I also see him accusing others of bullying. There were also accusations of socking and using IPs, but these weren't proven. Doug Weller talk 13:13, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Doug. @Jehochman: Thanks for asking, but I do not speak Swedish. However, when SergeWoozing came to the EngWikipedia, (s)he chose to edit the same content here. Naturally the controversy followed. Sample 2016 discussion It's long and it may have a happy ending overall but that story starts in fire and - the part I care about here - SergeWoozing told the ed who was reaching out "Please do not reply". I am drafting in my Sandbox5 if anyone wants to peek. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:24, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

In reference to "DR" as mentioned by this user above and elswehere for my benefit, I had no dispute with any editor at that time, so I felt the "DR" reference was moot at best and could be perceived it as bullying at worst. The part about a blocked editor did its part. I may have over-reacted, yes, and I'm sorry if so. I thought Dispute Resolution had to involve an actual dispute with someone.

Re: Swedish Wikipedia, it's an old and long and very unpleasant story which I would hope does not have to spill over into this page. If the fact that I am blocked elsewhere hinders me from complaining about what goes on on my talk page, that would be something I didn't think of. I had several detractors there and several supporters back then. I think everyone, including me, is content with the fact that I am no longer active there. Nothing even close to what was complained about there, whether rightly (as per my detractors) or wrongly (as per my supporters) has ever occurred here. It is beyond what I can comprehend that a long discussion about Prince Bernadotte, where things have been satisfactorily stable for quite some time, can be relevant to my complaint about disregard of my multiple requests not to post on my talk page. I "came to" English Wikipedia long before that discussion, and what I edit is what I can find reliable sources for on subjects where I might know how to find them. (I also remove unsourced material and revert quite a bit of spam and mischief.)

I do not intend to investigate the work of this user to try to find other things that might turn adminisrators against h. Several editors do not agree with h about the Thunberg article, but my complaint here is about my talk page, not the user's other work.

As noted above, there are many other ways to deal with what somenone might percieve as a personal dispute than posting repeatedly on someone's talk page where one has been asked to stay away. I admit I have asked a few users before to stay away in the past, since we got nowhere and I felt their entries on my talk page were more disconcerting than constructive. I though that was my right.

Can a user of long standing who has had a few animated discussions not procect h own talk page because of those discussions? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:35, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

You do seem to have a tendency to tell people to stay away from your talk page a lot. This is rarely a good sign. While people should generally respect such requests, if you're refusing to accept help and refusing to take on board what people are telling you, it's likely to be your funeral.

If someone brings a case and demonstrates problematic behaviour on your part, it's going to be difficult to argue to give you another chance since you weren't properly warned or informed over the problems in your editing since you banned anyone who tried. I suggest you stop taking everything so personally.

And I just noticed your response to Domdeparis at 19:19, 6 October 2017 (UTC) which is incredibly confusing. Are you actually banning editors from your talk page or not? You cannot ban editors then simultaneously claim "I do not refuse to talk to you or anyone else here or anywhere about anything relevant". If you're banning editors then you are refusing.

You may be allowed to, within reason, although as said, this may also cause more grief for you then benefit if you're not accepting help. But whatever your choice, please own up to what you're doing and don't leave conflicting messages. Also, if you have banned anyone, remember that it's not acceptable to discuss them on your talk page or allow others to do so.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:29, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! I will keep your advice in mind not to ask anyone to stay away from my talk page if it is obvious to me that they are trying to help Wikipedia. That is not the case here in total, I feel, after having looked at it all again with every measure of fairness and good faith I am able to muster.

I will also remove any discussion started on my talk page about anyone I have asked to stay away. I fully agree that nothing else would be appropriate.

For anyone interested in Swedish Wikipedia, as mentioned above, I probably should have added that there is no dispute resolution there, nothing that resembles third opinion assistance (which is very helpful), no arbitration and no rules against outing. On behalf of 4-5 of us who have been blocked there (after a lot of good work also having been done), I'd like to say that, as far as I've seen, we haven't found it possible to have our own views on article content and reliable sourcing judged in such constructive avenues as one can pursue - usually with great success - here. I have never expected to be right in every instance, only to be treated with the same respect and equinimity (having inherited a doube dose of quick temper from my father and my mother's mother) that I try very hard at the outset to use when dealing with everyone else. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:34, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

 Comment: SergeWoodzing isn't the only one to get harassed and bullied. User NewsAndEventsGuy threw unnecessary notices on my talk page too [116] even though I have done nothing wrong! This is a form of bullying and needs to stop. This user also unilaterally removed my comments from the Talk Page of Greta Thunberg, [117] which then I brought to the admin's attention [118]. The admins disagreed with the removal of my comments in Greta's Talk Page and soothed my worries and reassured me that I am not being persuaded.[119] I can't help but ignore this and let it go, however seeing that this incident wasn't limited only to me, but happened to other editors as well, made me come here and report my case as well. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:54, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

At least as far as the no-fault strictly FYI DS Alert template goes, I participated in the 2013/2014 discussion that intentionally de-fanged the prior "badge of shame" system with this no-fault/nothing-implied FYI alert system. SilentResident appears to be reacting as though we still did the "badge of shame" approach, even though it has moved to a FYI-only template for the last five years. At the time of the overhaul, I argued that the best way to de-stigmatize the system was to have a bot auto-deliver them to everyone in these hot topic areas. Instead I abundantly pass them out to many people manually, and to try to show they are FYI and not badge of shame I often issue them to myself. SilentResident is upset over specific actions at the article and talk page too. I still haven't tried to load those events in my brain and will try to do so soon. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:31, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

I believe editors need to be more discreet in throwing ARBMAC warnings around, especially when there were no actions to justify them. You threw an ARBMAC Warning at me for... what? And your actions to delete other people's comments in Greta's talk page found the admins disagreeing with. You really need stop throwing warnings at other editors/deleting their talk page comments. If you are incapable of seeing the wrong of your actions, no wonder why I am upset! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

(A) Since you're not hearing me, someone else can explain the DS Alert to you

(B) You left out the key thread, where we already discussed your beef with me. Please correct this brief summary if you disagree.... The venue is the BLP of Greta Thunberg ("GT"), a minor. You cited a Greek-language source that someone else's company was greenwashing but apparently made no claim that GT herself was greenwashing. I pointed you to to the archived thread where page editors had exhaustively debated all this. Our discussion closed with your promise to review the archived thread. Since I heard nothing from you until today, I assumed the matter was resolved to your satisfaction. WP:ARBBLP#Decorum requires an assumption of good faith. Where I saw a BLP rumor violation and off topic comment about actions by a 3rd party, I can admit that others might not see it that way. So maybe it's kinda borderline, raising the question how we should interpret what I did? One approach is to ignore DECORUM, assume bad faith, and thump me for bullying. The better way, in line with DECORUM, would be for you to produce RSs that directly connect the minor-aged young woman to the greenwashing allegations you wanted to add to her BLP article.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:32, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

It may seem different to you than for others, and this only shows why it is just as bad to act like how you did! If you do believe a query isn't worth it or relevant to the article or its subjects, you can simply reply accordingly, right bellow their query, so that the editors can know and be given the chance to defend or make the necessary clarifications, and this will be appreciated. But if you do it the other way instead, i.e. by touching / removing others' queries from Talk Pages just like how you have done with mine, you will regret it. I don't want to sound harsh towards you, but your actions were very indimitating for me and have upset me, for which i have seen no apology at all. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:23, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

This is pretty simple.... If you got sources to comply with BLP, argue sources. If you lack such sources, demand apologies from the person who says so. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

BOOMERANG request re: SergeWoodzing

SergeWoodzing will tell anyone who will listen that it wasn't his fault he was banned from the Swedish Wikipedia. Here at the English site, he has often expressed bitterness when admins don't behave as he thinks they should

...It does not pay off to start trouble oneself, because nobody cares who started the trouble or went way too far, no matter how obvious it is, when 2 users are having a nasty fight. Custom is to always find fault with whomever complains...[120]

Below I will document a WP:Competence is required basis for the community to limit his access to the dramaboards. This user approaches conflict with a persecution complex and inability take feedback.[121] But since he still has a clear block log, it might help if we try a small block first as a "wake up call".

User to be sanctioned SergeWoodzing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User notified Being NOBAN'd I'm counting on him seeing this or someone else telling him

Authorization for DS WP:ARBBLP

DS Alert Issued here

One line summary User shits on DR offers and games the system to avoid review of his own acts

Procedural note

If this weren't already at ANI, I would submit this report at AE, but I'm hoping an admin will ignore the procedural venue and employ DS anyway. If that's not possible, then let's crunch this the usual ANI way

Requested sanction

For six months, SergeWoodzing is page-banned from Greta Thunberg, the BLP's of her immediate family, and pages related to Thunberg's climate change activism. This includes all talk pages and related discussions at any venue.

SW violates WP:ARBBLP#Decorum and WP:5P4
My story starts at Talk:Greta Thunberg, with a content dispute which produced the following chain of events

• 6:36 May 4 SergeWoodzing adds the BLP subject's middle names

Important details

8:06 May 4 Reverted by Wham2001 EditSum Middle names are unsourced, as far as I can see, both here and at SvWP 17:30 June 4 SergeWoodzing starts thread citing the "Swedish Tax Authority" 19:40 June 4 Wham2001 directs SergeWoodzing's attention to WP:PRIMARYCARE 09:00, June 20 In response to the discussion, SergeWoodzing spitefully deletes even the subject's first and last names from an infobox, saying that is not her full name 15:58 Aug 31 MartiniShaw asked ...What is the problem with including it [Thunberg's middle names] on here?" 17:39 Aug 31 NewsAndEventsGuy answered ..show us her full name is so "widely reported" as to overcome the spirit of the private personal information rule at WP:DOB... where the first sentence reads "With identity theft a serious ongoing concern, people increasingly regard their full names and dates of birth as private." 20:30 Aug 31 MartiniShaw asks Under what rule is "regarding their full name as private" a bar to the inclusion of the full name on Wikipedia? 22:00 Aug 31 In a bit of WP:STONEWALLING SergeWoodzing's says No rule that I can find. When all one has to do is look at the Swedish article with her full name as supplied by the Swedish Tax Authority's published census.... 22:04 Aug 31 NewsAndEventsGuy points to his earlier reference to WP:DOB, shortcut for WP:BLP#Privacy of personal information and using primary sources

• 15:50 Sept 7 SergeWoodzing responds to me, by bolding his comment from 22:00 Aug 31. and making a personal attack in the EditSum

censorship going on here

• 15:57 Sept 7Seven minutes later, SergeWoodzing again violates WP:NPA saying

...The article has become an obvious embarrassment to Wikipedia, to anyone who wants us to create neutral articles and (as so heavily and obviously biased) to Ms. Thunberg herself. 2-3 editors working in sync own the article and remove anything that attempts to balance the promotional wholeness, and many of us have given up on such attempts.

This was obviously directed in part at me. Besides the timing I was one of two main editors in the prior month. Later he will try to WP:Game the system by claiming it wasn't a personal attack because he didn't utter my name.

• 11:34, September 9, 2019 NewsAndEventsGuy posted a DS Alert BLP notice to SergeWoodzing's talk
• 11:37, September 9, 2019 At article talk, NewsAndEventsGuy deleted SergeWoodzing's personal attack from Sept 7 (above)
• 11:42, September 9, 2019 At SergeWoodzing's talk, NewsAndEventsGuy tried to explain the NPA removal in a thread titled Assume good faith and focus on content
• 18:29, September 9, 2019 SergeWoodzing violates WP:ARBBLP#Decorum and WP:AGF and WP:5P4 by WP:casting aspersions of bullying back in my face saying

...Please do not try to bully me! Amd stay off this page...

• 18:37, September 9, 2019 I acknowledged his NOBAN request and on my way out the door I offered to do any kind of WP:Dispute resolution he might like to try (details of the content dispute are in the collapsed section above)

...if you think your RS-based article improvements have been wrongly kept out of the article, I will be glad to participate in any WP:Dispute resolution process you care would [sic] like to try

• 19:00, September 9, 2019 SergeWoodzing again spits on WP:ARBBLP#Decorum and WP:AGF by characterizing my offer to do DR as harassment and bullying

I perceive this unneccessary [sic] comment as harassment and continued attempted bullying. You have no power on this particular page. I repeat - 2nd request - please stay off this page! (bold in original)

• 20:01 Sept 10 In a stunning bit of WP:GASLIGHTING and WP:SANCTIONGAMING, SergeWoodzing pretends there is no content dispute and that offering to do dispute resolution is a bullying, contrived irrelevancy. Quoted in full -

What I "rebuffed" on my talk page was not anything that I could take, in good faith, as a serious constructive offer or suggestion. Surprised that the user would feel licensed to do so, I took it as attempted bullying, not earnestly in the interest of improving this article. I had no dispute of any kind with that user until h/s showed up on my talk, so the "DR" angle, to me, is contrived and irrelevant, here and on that page.

• 20:30 Sept 10 I asked him to either complain at AE or produce sources to comply with BLP, and described the value of Dispute resolution

...if you have RS-s for your desired changes it shouldn't get that far, because I am willing to participate in any of the DR options you invoke...

• 21:38 Sept 10 SergeWoodzing Employs more WP:Gaming the system tactics

Again, I have complained about nobody by name but only about the content of this article as I perceive it and why I perceive it has become so embarrassing as an unbalanced whole. I have never had any personal interaction with you until you wrote 3 times on my talk page. One of the things you wrote was about focusing on content not on any contributor, which, to me, means any individual contributor by name. That's exactly what I think we should do (often having cited WP:TPYES myself over the years). You are now free to do that, by ceasing to personalize this discussion to engage any particular individuals.

• WP:GASLIGHTING - SergeWoodzing pretends

• I was not one of the many eds who reverted text he wanted to be in the article, Thunberg's middle names
• We had not interacted at article talk, where he accused me of censorship and seven minutes later lobbed a personal attack

• WP:PLAYPOLICY - SergeWoodzing falsely claims that trashing editors without uttering their name is a civil thing to do. Note that our WP:NPA policy says "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done." (italics in original)
• "Borderlining" - SergeWoodzing attacks in this manner hoping the community views his acts as a low-grade policy breach, so his targets will have a hard time actually proving misconduct.

• 14:35 Sept 30 (diff unavailable) He is also gaslighting right here at ANI, trying to pretend he didn't shit on an offer to DR over using Thunberg's middle names

..I had no dispute with any editor at that time, so I felt the "DR" reference was moot at best and could be perceived it as bullying at worst...<.span>

The content issue is both trivial giving level headed admins a reason to be sad that we're here, and a serious bit of respect under BLP privacy. The BIG issue is SW's devastatingly hostile response to an offer to do DR, and his attempts to escape culpability by - once again - pretending he's not the problem.

Unrelated but telling BLP warning at same venue and SW challenges the admin
07:52 Sept 22 Admin Cullen328 issues a BLP warning to SergeWoodzing 14:00-16:00 Sept 22 full thread SergeWoodzing challenges Admin Cullen328 in thread title "Threat you made" ...Please don't threaten other users like that with unclear aspersions bordering on a personal attack...

Events of Sept 29

My housekeeping edits on Sept 29 that started today's events.

On Sept 29, I manually archived one thread from article talk and copied some its contents to the active thread on the same subject. This was merely a bit of housekeeping consistent with WP:MULTI. The opening post raised two issues, one of which was resolved. The other issue was already under discussion in a prior thread. The two-part housekeeping involved material FromTalk and moved to ToArchive3 In the FromTalk diff above I copied the part about the middle name to the main thread about that issue, so those remarks were not simply shipped off to archive land but they were copied, per WP:MULTI, to where they could most efficiently contribute to the consensus process. After I did that, this is what happened.... Importantly the only one to complain was MartiniShaw, as explained below, who later said "OK"

• For 19 days I observed NOBAN.
• Then a third party who didn't understand my housekeeping work flamed me by name at SW's talk I and I wrote about 30 words addressed to the third party under their comment, per WP:MULTI.
• And per MULTI I later wrote about 10 words to an IP who pinged me
• 11:07, September 30, 2019 SergeWoodzing violates WP:ARBBLP#Decorum exploding

...This is my third request: stay off this page! You are not welcome here under any circumstances, especially not to start arguments with me or anyone else. Defend yourself and your actions elsewhere, not here! If you reply to this, or ever write anything here again, I will report you. (bold in original)

• 11:10, September 30, 2019 SergeWoodzing posts on my page. He had previously been told that would invite a reply despite a NOBAN.[122]
• 11:31, September 30, 2019 Frustrated, but not wanting to run to the drama boards, I acknowledged SergeWoodzing could attempt to have me sanctioned if he really thought it was necessary. I just couldn't believe any editor in his situation would risk a BOOMERANG, and I compounded my own error stupidly thinking putting the remark on his page was the right procedure.[123]. Looking back, I wish I had just reported him to AE.

And so, after utterly trashing my offer of dispute resolution, he pretends there is no underlying content dispute so can play the NOBAN victim, in defiance of everything WP:ARBBLP#Decorum stands for.

--- What's policy say? ---

• WP:NOBAN (stay off my talk page) is a guideline
• WP:MULTI (keep discussion in one place) is a guideline
• WP:ARBBLP#Decorum is a commandment from on high.

Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited.

SergeWoodzing has been neither "reasonable" nor "calm" nor exhibiting a "collaborative outlook" - In the first couple Sept 29 remarks I wasn't talking to him but still he freaks; he castigates my offer to do DR without any sign of a "collaborative outlook". He's gaming the system by pretending there's no content dispute, pretending we had not interacted before I posted on his talk page, pretending to be the aggrieved party although making personal attacks, and wikilawyering to undermine our policies of trust and community. If you're not in conflict with the guy, he's really nice. But heaven help you if he lacks the RSs for his desired article text and you dare to say so!

Moving forward, while I don't know anything about SergeWoodzing's ban from the Swedish Wiki, here there seems to be a bit of a WP:CIR problem and definitely a violation of the Arb's BLP ruling on these pages. Before talking about more complex restricitons, let's try a 6 month ban from the closely related pages as defined at the top of this boomerang request.

But wait... maybe you're wondering if it's just me?

SW regularly slams NOBAN door in others' faces

In habitual defiance of WP:5P4, SergeWoodzing has slammed his talk page door in the face of many editors, showing he lacks the ability to work through conflict in a calm and civil manner that seeks to collaborate even when other editors have reasons to disagree with his desired edits. Editor 1 ...do not use my talk page... Editor 2 ...You are no longer welcome here on my talk page. For any reason. Ever. Please... Editor 3 ...You are not welcome on my talk page, so stay off it please! Especially when you are running the errands of someone else... Editor 4 I am warning you one last time: stay off my talk page!... Editor 5 ...Your advice is of no interest to me here and is unwanted... Please stay off my talk page! Editor 6 I would appreciate not having that user on my talk page at all, neither in mentions by other users or in her own additions to it... Editor 7 Stay off my talk page - this is the third time I have asked you to! This ed was trying to teach SW about WP:NLT in relation to SW's use of the word "slander". When the other finally resorted to ANI and posted the required ANI template, SW gamed the system by raging at the aggrieved party ...Vindictive and frivolous posting. Just an excuse to post here again... Editor 8 ...If that's all this has become, please stop and go away! Editor 9 ...Don't come here to try to police me, after what you've done! Editor 10 ...cannot for the life of me figure out what your agenda is on this page, unless it's just to try to pick a fight. Editor 11 Feeling your oats, (Editor 11)? ... Stay off this page with any and all threats, please! Editor 12 ... please stay away from this page. You are no longer welcome here. Editor 13 ...Because of your condescending, presumptuous and provocative behavior here, you are not welcome on this talk page SW was challenged over possible COI related to ......Jacob (import paragraph from last section) Editor 14 ...Please do not reply! (bold in original) Editor 15 I asked you not to come here and accuse me... of such things as "a breach of the Wikipedia etiquette".... SW pretends user talk is not designed for working out conduct issues without the drama boards' involvement Editor 16 ...for the 10th time stay off my talk page! Editor 17 ... You do have a reason to apologize ... If you mainly want to argue, go away! Here, SW is gaming the system by pretending policy forbids seeking consensus by making article edits, even when a discussion is underway

A frequent-flier at ANI, SW is usually told he's some if not all of the problem

SergeWoodzing's track record at the dramaboards is dominated by others telling him that he is the problem. Examples of such cases include A whole series of cases he filed with respect to a single editor.[124], [125], [126], [127], [128], [129], [130], [131]. Ironically, in the second case one commenter said "I have a general rule that whenever an editor starts with the STAY OFF MY TALK PAGE stuff, he is the source of the problem...." Despite many people telling him that his complaint lacks merit and/or that he is the problem, SergeWoodzing's wraps up the last case ends with a final bitter WP:IDHT Since it seems obvious not one administrator is interested in trying to help with this, and since it only has led to more heartache, I am getting real and withdrawing anything that needs attention. I do that very sadly. SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC) Ten days later SW finally agrees to a voluntary no fault 1-way 6 month interaction ban. The ban allows him to seek input from an admin, which he does. Just 12 days into the IBan the admin advises SW to just assume good faith and SW lashes out at the admin most colorfully and by 6 weeks into the IBan the admin had to tell him his constant drumbeat at the admins page might start to look like harassment of the other party. In other cases.... 2011, filed by SW and he complains that when he files his own behavior is examined 2012, filed about SW and he resists the idea that complaining about "slander" violates WP:NLT 2013, filed by a 3rd party and mutliple eds say SW is the problem 2014 filed by SW, both eds warned 2015, filed by SW but goes nowhere and SW flames an admin 2015, filed by SW and again told he is the problem 2015, file by SW and he is told its just a content dispute 2016, filed by SW. The other ed gets a warning, and an admin tells SW he's blown it way out proportion. SW fires off the last word bitterly complaining at the lack of relief. 2016 SW reports 4 eds to 3RR, gets a BOOMERANG warning 2017 SW complains but is told it's a content dispute and as it turns out a few days later SW admitted he had not disclosed a COI regarding Jacob Truedson Demitz a BLP which was removed at AFD. 2018 SW files, told the dramaboards are a last resot and it was too minor and premature for ANI (although the other ed did apologize) 2018 filed by SW and gets told he is part of the problem

It seems crystal-clear there is a WP:CIR challenge with this ed when anyone dares offer criticism. Prior to anything more complicated, let's try a discretionary sanction under ARBBLP, giving him a 6-month ban him from a small set of articles as described at the top of this request.

usertalk protection request re 86.187.231.123

Ordinarily I'd ask for protection at the usual place, but since admins here may look at my talk page before protection is granted, I'm asking here... My user talk is under atttack from 86.187.231.123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Notice the "cabal" tread at Talk:Greta Thunberg also. help please? Apologies for this unconventional protection request. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:17, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

I have protected for 12 hours...please ping me when it keeps on coming, although I also have watchlisted. Lectonar (talk) 14:20, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Seeds of Destruction

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The article Seeds of Destruction (book) was clearly created with the purpose of promoting conspiracy claptrap. My attempt to clean it up Special:Diff/919045204 was for some reason undone. 188.133.155.110 (talk) 15:16, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi 188.133.155.110 - while it very well may be a pseudohistory/CT tome, your cleanup attempt involved the sudden deletion of half the article. It would be better to first discuss sweeping edits like this on the Talk page. Also your revised version veered heavily into WP:OR through unsourced value statements like "As typical of sensationalist conspiracy writers ...". While "XYZ" may, in fact, be typical of sensationalist conspiracy writers it's impossible to assert that without at least one WP:RS. You also added that the author of the book "uses quote mining to create false quotes". Again, you need reliable sources that state the author uses quote mining to create false quotes. In this case you independently arrived at this conclusion by comparing the quotes scribed by the author against the original text of the quotes and noted a variance, attributing the difference to the author engaging in quote mining. While this might be a valid conclusion to make, it runs afoul of our policy against original research. You may want to check in at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard for tips on how to correctly cleanup articles that are potentially "promoting conspiracy claptrap". Chetsford (talk) 16:24, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

There may be a more fundamental issue here. As originally created (by User:Forest90), the 'reception' section contained supposed quotations in broken English which appear from the sources I have been able to check to be mangled paraphrasing at best, if not entirely fictitious. 19:36, 1 October 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:B701:A101:3916:883D:C51:1715 (talk)

Editor: when you start a discussion about another editor, you must leave a notice on the editor's talk page. Simply pinging them is insufficient. Also, include diffs demonstrating the problem instead of posting unevidenced declarations. These, and other important instructions for posting at ANI, are contained in the box at the top of this page. Thanks! Chetsford (talk) 23:31, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

I didn't start this discussion, I commented on it. As for 'diffs', I'd have thought it was simple enough for anyone looking at the article history to figure out what the problem was. Still, if this sort of 'please fulfil all bureaucratic procedures before commenting' response is the norm for this noticeboard, I'll not bother commenting again, and leave the issues which actually matter to an encyclopaedia (like not making quotes up) for someone else to raise here... 86.143.228.87 (talk) 03:56, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi 86.143.228.87. First, please accept my apology for misidentifying your IP address with that of the original IP editor. Second, thank you for your patience and understanding. Chetsford (talk) 03:39, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request to protect articles regarding Peruvian politics

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Due to the ongoing dispute on 2017–19 Peruvian political crisis, please extended-protect the said article, President of Peru, Vice President of Peru, Martín Vizcarra, and Mercedes Aráoz. Thanks. Flix11 (talk) 06:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, please make this request at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Fish+Karate 08:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Courtesy ping @Flix11:. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 19:51, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suspected WP:NOTHERE of William S Lerner

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So far, of the ten edits of User:William S Lerner, two are attempts to add William S. Lerner to List of Fellows of the Royal Society of Arts, and one to TP of @Alexf:, four to user's own talk, two to user's own sandbox (which I've tagged as U5), one to an IP with no edit history. All of them are related to attempts to add a person to Wikipedia that the user shares a name with, so I suspect an outright nothere. ミラP 19:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

No doubt stale by now but Charlitobajo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Alansickles (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are responsible for most of that article, and Danestyped (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) created it (and a couple of deleted adverts); the original article was deleted by DGG as a G11, it was created by Spawedspanner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), blocked as a spammer. Call me a nasty suspicious bastard, but I smell promotional editing. The claim to fame appears to be a system to warn if the glass on a glass-fronted fireplace gets too hot, to stop toddlers getting burned, and he's lobbying to mandate such devices be fitted to all fireplaces. Here in England we have this thing called a fireguard. Guy (help!) 20:11, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@JzG: If you look at Special:Diff/919269129 you'll see that his signature is apparently an extremely long CV. Anyone seen that stuff before? Also pinging the aforementioned @DGG:. ミラP 20:29, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Since you deleted the William S. Lerner article for WP:G11, I'd like you to consider blocking William S Lerner for WP:NOTHERE. ミラP 20:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Update: @Bishonen: has salted User:William S Lerner. ミラP 20:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Bish is on it, she can be relied on to do the needful. Guy (help!) 23:04, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

And I've revoked talk page access, due to WP:CIR or outright trolling. Yeesh, that was painful. --Yamla (talk) 13:41, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

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Adding of "closure date" of Star City by 49.144.8.140

49.144.8.140 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Kept adding closure date of the amusement park without knowing that it would just temporarily close, not fully.

Source: 1

Edits made by IP: 23 4

RareButterflyDoors (talk) 05:45, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

User Tgru001 criticizes source in bad faith

• Tgru001 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In this edit Tgru001 (talk · contribs) criticizes www.timeanddate.com. I believe the criticism is in bad faith, and is actually sour grapes over not getting a file the editor uploaded added to Calendar reform. I warned the editor about the need to edit in good faith here. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:14, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Frankly that specific comment you highlighted seems extremely mild and not worth worrying about. The editor's generally editing to that talk page does seem somewhat confusing like their random sock-puppetry accusations just because someone uses a pseudonym and doesn't have a "home page" (user page) [132] [133] and maybe ironic coming from me, also the wall of text of many of their comments there. However it seems like Tgru001 is new and still learning. Nil Einne (talk) 16:24, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, as I have said to them already, I happy to cite scientific stuff but am as green as with the arts and social sciences. I tried reversing on edit I thought ill conceived but never the one referred to here. There is no sour grapes. The reason I posted it in the first place is the whole page seemed poorly referenced so I thought is was more of a calendar fest than anything else.

Regarding random sock puppetry accusations, I'm just after some consistency on the page in terms of editor input. I even asked them where I could formally query about the significance or otherwise of blank home pages as I'm new to pages which apparently are controversial for some reason. As they repeatedly tell me I often forget to sign, but at least I log in so my real ID is there. I'm not one for tit for tat, but it's off putting with editors generally that only work by reversing your edits rather than trying to improve them and apparently think it adds wait to their arguments if I make mistakes with trivia. Particularly when the reasons for reversing your edit change when their first, second etc reason turns out to be incorrect. If they are not changing for the reasons first given then I felt the reversals are for reasons they don't really want to divulge. It doesn't inspire confidence and the anonymity adds to that lack of confidence in them. When it comes to human interaction we prefer to see each other, if not talk to each other, if not write to write to each other, or at least know we are both human and not a computer algorithms exchanging bits over the internet.

They often misquote me, effectively trying to put words into my mouth. He told me I didn't think he was sincere. I guess it was because he was intending to come here to this page. I never said that, nor do I lack faith in them. The worst I will say about them is their intentions may be noble but in my opinion the page I'm trying to edit is suffering due to misplaced good intentions. Going by the comments about them that others have posted (and then been edited out) I suspect the good intentions are tending to drive away other editors with good intentions as well. They may be a really nice person in person, but their style of written social interaction is not endearing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 4 October 2019 (UTC) Whhops I forgot the tildes again.Tgru001 (talk) 00:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

A sock of the infamous User:Vote (X) for Change is interfering in the discussion at Talk:Calendar reform [134] [135] [136]. I suggest the talk page be semi-protected for a while and that 94.0.175.75 (talk · contribs) be blocked for 30 days or so. Since 94.0.175.75 mentioned ANI in 94.0.175.75's edit summaries I deem 94.0.175.75 to be aware of this discussion. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I protected the talk page for 3 days.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:19, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Longtime editor editing while logged out

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• Bardrick (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 84.13.177.155 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 89.243.101.86 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The article Wally Nightingale has a history of edit disputes going back to 2017, in which Bardrick (talk · contribs) insists on inserting an unsourced original research/editorial analysis description into the lede [137], [138]. The OR has been repeatedly reverted. In more recent years, every so often, an anon IP shows up to reinsert the same OR description [139], [140]. Per WP:DUCK this is clearly Bardrick editing while logged out. I placed a warning on his talk page, but he is an experienced editor and should know this is not acceptable. Furthermore, he has been blocked repeatedly for edit warring in the past, which gives this the appearance of trying to avoid further scrutiny for edit warring. ♟♙ (talk) 16:34, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The logged out editing goes much, much further than just the IP mentioned above. There is currently a range-block on Special:Contributions/84.13.176.0/21 to deter Bardrick from editing while logged out. I will inform the checkusers with knowledge of this case of this discussion. FDW777 (talk) 16:48, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I notified him of this discussion on his account talk page and the IP talk page, but he seems to have chosen not to respond here. He did respond on his own talk page [141], claiming "he didn't know" despite having had an account here since 2012. As you say, there's a rangeblock in palace to prevent him editing while logged out, so it seems this has been an issue with him for some time? ♟♙ (talk) 19:21, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

On 29 June I asked Bardrick to log in while editing at User talk:84.13.182.138 with a sockpuppetry warning. Bardrick made two edits using that IP a few hours after my message. Obviously I cannot say Bardrick read the message, but he/she definitely had ample opportunity to do so. FDW777 (talk) 19:25, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I will also add the "sometimes I forget to [log in] - particularly if it's an edit made quickly" claim doesn't hold water. From 1 August-24 August (when the IP range was blocked), Bardrick made 78 edits while logged in and 154 while logged out. FDW777 (talk) 20:22, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

If this is considered to be a serious problem, then User:Bardrick's account should be blocked for at least 24 hours and perhaps one or more IPs should also be blocked. Bardrick has been here since 2012 and has four previous blocks. The two IPs listed at top of this report are covered by active rangeblocks issued by User:Berean Hunter. Click on 'contribs' to see them. EdJohnston (talk) 20:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

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Rangeblock request for 2601:154:C101:B00::/64

• Range contribs

After receiving a "final warning" on one IP, the user changed their address and resumed vandalism here. Given the user's vandalism across 3 IPs within this /64 range, I'm requesting a rangeblock. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:14, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Based on this expletive, the lack of sourcing for their changes and the lack of a positive response to a warning I've blocked Special:Contributions/2601:154:C101:B00:0:0:0:0/64 for three days. Let me know if the problem continues. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 20:23, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Disruptive satellite editor

I embarked on a project last month to update DirecTV’s satellite fleet page and related, as they were painfully outdated. A user by the name of Agentdoof started reverting my edits today, starting with the new names of the satellites, due to them not having realible sources. Which was true, as I got the information from a forum. So after some frustration, I decided to let him revert the names until I find a realible source. I however didn’t allow him to remove the T16 satellite listing from the AT&T info box and AT&T template as he believed it didn’t exist. It seems as if this user knows little about satellites. I provided multiple sources, one from the infobox on the satellite fleet, with the source right next to the T16 section. It’s from ArianeSpace, who launches DirecTV’s spacecraft. Another source I provided was Airbus Space & Defense, who legit built the spacecraft. He said these weren’t realible sources and he continually reverts my edits in that respective, despite proof that’s he’s wrong. I’ve sent talk page messages to him that he views as "bogus" and removes. I’ve tried to solve this situation on my own, but to no avail. I’m worried I may have broken WP:3RR. HurricaneGeek2002 (talk) 01:56, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Page where incident occurred: Template:AT&T. HurricaneGeek2002 (talk) 02:05, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

User:HurricaneGeek2002 I took a look at the talk page discussion between yourself and User:Agentdoof. From what I saw, yes, Agentdoof could have done a better job, like replying to you to tell you what was wrong. That said, the first source you used wasn't a reliable source and you admitted as much. The second source you provided is reliable but from what I can see, they never mention their satellite is being used by AT&T at all, so without that, it looks like you're trying to infer that they are, and I can understand why, but that would run afoul of Wikipedia's restriction on synth or original research.

Maybe you can find something on Disk Network/AT&T that actually lists their satellites, as long as it's not their forums or a press release that could possibly be used as it would link AT&T with a certain set of satellites, and it would be a reliable source.

I'm not a sysop , but if I were I'd urge agentdoof to at least respond to you and not remove your messages without comment as well. Necromonger...We keep what we kill 13:14, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I'd argue that press releases are sufficient to establish use/ownership of a particular satellite, since it's a factual statement and isn't likely to be significantly biased/promotional in and of itself. The press release isn't sufficient to establish notability, of course, but I think it's acceptable if there's no other good sources (or all sources lead back to the press release). ^creffpublic _{a creffett franchise} (talk to the boss) 13:23, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Edit: Unless I misinterpreted what Wekeepwhatwekill posted above and they were actually saying that a press release is a good source, in which case...agreed! ^creffpublic _{a creffett franchise} (talk to the boss) 13:24, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

The source from Arianespace I have as seen here directly mentions the satellite as being used by AT&T. I was also able to find the FCC document for the name changes, but it looks like only DirecTV 11, 9S, and 15's names have been changed. I'm sure the others have been renamed too, but until I find the FCC listings for those, I'll leave those alone. HurricaneGeek2002 (talk) 14:59, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I’ve found the official document that DTV filed for the FCC about the new satellite names. HurricaneGeek2002 (talk) 21:49, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

(ec) In my (limited) experience, PR at launch time is accurate as of then only. Satellites seem to be routinely moved to different positions, renamed, reconfigured (transponders), and retired. There are a lot of bad references out there that are old, unmaintained, and without dates to at least know when they were correct. It would be good to know if there are sources that are consistently good. It seems like FCC filings would be good. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 22:02, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Dispute

Smoothswim and I have been in a dispute for several days. It started when I was new page patrolling and found an article he had created, Skateboarding at the 2024 Summer Olympics, which I tagged for a deletion discussion because it violated notability policies. He reverted my notice of the deletion discussion on his talk page, saying it was "vandalism." We argued with a back-and-forth for some days. He was problematic, to say the least: he reported me for vandalism (and thus implied that he accused me of bad faith) and tried to educate me about AfD, plus commenting on AfD's talk page that it would be the downfall of Wikipedia (obviously a silly statement, considering that it started more than a decade ago and Wikipedia's still around and improved). Finding him problematic, I looked at his contributions to ensure that he was not blatantly violating more policies. I improved some articles that he had been working on in good faith, but he reverted them and called them vandalism. Please help resolve this dispute, since this drama is taking us nowhere. From AnUnnamedUser ^{(open talk page)} 02:53, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Diffs would be helpful. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:20, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

From what I can tell, Smoothswim is reacting aggressively and throwing accusations of vandalism and trolling around rather too liberally: their entire debating style here is combative and repeatedly comments on the other editor rather than on the merits of the article under discussion, and they have resorted to reverting constructive edits by AnUnnamedUser with edit summaries of "vandalism" e.g. here and here. Smoothswim is a new editor and clearly passionate about their favourite subject, but they need to start assuming good faith; I have given them an AGF notice. --bonadea contributions talk 13:35, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Response by Smoothswim

Not sure if this is the right place to post this here but anyway:

I feel that I and potentially others (new to Wikipedia and less likely to want to defend themselves against trolling attacks) have been seriously grieved by AnUnnamedUser. Within four minutes of the first commit to the newly created page Skateboarding at the 2024 Summer Olympics, AnUnnamedUser flagged the page for deletion. I then requested a response as per guidelines via the talk page for the article. It took a while but I finally received a very terse and aggressively toned reply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Skateboarding_at_the_2024_Summer_Olympics where AnUnnamedUser refuted that the page's three sources confirmed the provisional inclusion of Skateboarding at the 2024 Olympics. AnUnnamedUser used the term "crystal ball".

The person's tone concerned me and made me not want to login to Wikipedia any more. Never the less, I added reasoned arguments against deleting the page, despite AnUnnamedUser attempting to assert incorrectly that I own some sort of "crystal ball." By that point I could tell that something about AnUnnamedUser was not right. I scanned their public commit history and found that they were flagging numerous articles for deletion. My concern became not about the page Skateboarding at the 2024 Summer Olympics but about AnUnnamedUser's conduct on the website. Trolling Wikipedia looking for articles to delete, four minutes after they were created is possibly the most toxic behaviour I have witnessed online for a long time - And I'm someone who has been to the alt/far right and asked them about why they have the views they do to try to understand their behaviour.

After the exchange on the talk page, which I consider a considerable waste of my own time, I then witnessed two pages I had been working on (one I had created) had been vandalized by AnUnnamedUser. Some were petty (2 instead of two) and destructive edits which changed the tone of the article and it concerned me that:

• A: AnUnnamedUser had decided to edit pages related to skateboarding without joining the skateboarding wikiproject.
• B: AnUnnamedUser had not discussed any big changes they wanted to make on the talk page for the article.
• C: That AnUnnamedUser was editing a topic about a place that I am 99% sure they have never even visited. AnUnnamedUser even added a flag which meant that they had not visited enough of the linked sources to understand the topic at hand at all.

After spending so much wasted time communicating with AnUnnamedUser, where I feel that there has been a concerted attempt to victimise me for creating a single page here and then defend the reason for it's creation, I feel that Wikipedia has missed out on content i would have added instead during that time. AnUnnamedUser's tone concerned me so much that I started editing without logging in because I could see all the signs of a pattern of trolling.

I warned AnUnnamedUser on their talk page about their vandalism on Wikipedia And should they continue on their destructive path I would attempt to pursue a block.

I would also like to make clear my intentions here on Wikipedia: I feel that the quality of content, especially Skateboard related content is very poor and often at times, hardly relevant. The skateboard community does not find Wikipedia credible enough to store their history, evidenced by the lack of activity documenting it, the lack of sources, huge number of missing articles, etc. I came to Wikipedia to try to sort this out and add as much as I can about my history and the fantastic and amazing people I have shared seriously happy times with. The kind of experiences which need to be shared using facts, especially the organic movements which happened around my time growing up as a skateboarder and part of the evolution of skateboarding. Please check my commit history. I didn't come here to be dragged into a political process by a troll. Thanks!

Repeatedly naming an alleged Milkshaking assailant without providing reliable sources

• Rowan Croft (Grand Torino) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Ruy costa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Editor Ruy costa created a new article on 24 September about a far-right YouTuber, Rowan Croft (disclosure: I have since nominated this article for deletion). One of the two paragraphs in the article was about a Milkshaking incident. The WP article claimed the milkshake thrown at Croft contained curry powder, and named the alleged assailant definitively, in WP's voice. The source used was an online news aggregator site, theliberal.ie, generally regarded as a biased and unreliable source (the owner has had to publish apologies following court cases (a second time after trying to hide the first apology) and pay damages for plagiarism). The unreliable source used for this does at least sprinkle "alleged" and "allegedly" throughout its article, when mentioning who it alleges carried out the assault. I first added a 'citation needed' template but then removed the defamatory content altogether.

On 2 October, Ruy costa edited the Milkshaking article to again directly name the alleged assailant and state that the milkshake contained curry powder. The "reliable source" is a YouTube video of the incident.

I removed the claims as they were not sourced. I also posted to the user's talk page, on 2 October, warning them about the requirement to reliably source such assertions.

I thought that would be an end to the matter, but on 3 October, Ruy costa has re-added the content, repeating their claim in the edit summary. The source used this time is a tweet by the person they claim is the attacker, which, from the wording, is certainly nothing that could be construed as proof.

I've no idea if the person in the video is the person Ruy costa is repeatedly naming. And I can't find any reliable sources naming her. I'm not sure if the edits need oversight (personally I would err on the side of caution), but I definitely do think that the user in question needs to be advised to properly source their edits, per WP:V and WP:RS. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:24, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I've warned User:Ruy costa against restoring material removed from the article for WP:BLP reasons without getting consensus first. EdJohnston (talk) 17:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Bodo people

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Between User:2402:3A80:DE4:2F2B:45D9:8249:EE0D:25DF, User:Bhaskarbhagawati, and User:PerfectingNEI. I can not trust any of them. Flix11 (talk) 13:02, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Flix11, you have trust issues, got it. What are you specifically asking for here? --Malerooster (talk) 13:05, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Dear sir Flix11, You don't need to trust me. But some factual data are being erased by Bhaskarbhagawati & He is adding only his version of Story. I felt I should report it, so I did. Thanks. PerfectingNEI (talk) 13:24, 4 October 2019 (UTC) That IP edits were done by my junior. I asked him to add these things. I don't edit Wikipedia because of people like bhaskarbhagawati. Kindly block everyone. Alteast block the disruptive editor bhaskarbhagawati. Byee PerfectingNEI (talk) 13:35, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

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Is a user allowed to use the re-tired tag if not Retired?

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I stumbled upon a user after doing some reading regarding Israeli Military Units. User Number 57 recommended I post here. User:Nishidani User talk:Nishidani IsraeliIdan (talk) 16:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Vexatious niggling per the user's handle and the fact I came back to fix two pages (Racism in the Palestinian territories,Afro-Palestinians after noting they were being abused by inane POV-pushing). Failure to note the puns used on those pages cited in the query is understandable. Unfamiliarity with English usage can be remedied by studying the following average remark about retirement in an academic profession. I.e.Steven G. Krantz, The Survival of a Mathematician: From Tenure-track to Emeritus, American Mathematical Society, 2009 p.231. The plaintiff should be advised to concentrate on editing Wikipedia, and not wasting people's time by nano-nugatory pettiness.Nishidani (talk) 16:59, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

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Regardless of the claimed puns, the banner on both the user page and talk page state "This user is no longer active on Wikipedia." which is clearly untrue.

However, attacking the OP based on assumptions made because of their nationality (whilst I find Zvikorn extremely annoying, I have not seen any evidence of POV issues) and WP:SOAPBOXING like this are more concerning. Number 57 19:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Soapboxing is, of course, ill-advised. But I don't think there's anything that mandates a user to follow through or accurately represent their retirement tag — though, of course, WP:TIRED would be better since there is a picture of a cat involved. El_C 19:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Number 57, I agree with what you've said and he has been warned about his behavior in the past. As for the template, I told him about that before and his suggestion was to change it from retired to re-tired, but this is what the template page itself says: Do not use this template unless you plan to completely and permanently stop editing., among other instructions, it is a little deceptive, since it hides the user from discussions since people coming to the page may not necessarily continue on with a conversation, etc. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:11, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Perhaps it is best they customize the tag not to read This user is no longer active on Wikipedia. El_C 20:03, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

You can't do that. You can customize why you're no longer active, but the message is part of the template. There is a semi-retired template that is available to use if one choose to do so. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:15, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

YOu have an American flag wavering on your page, SJ. I don't complain of what could arguably be challenged as violating WP:SOAP. So what's your problem?

So we are now grinding down to the minutiae of how to destroy even the most picayune suggestion that an editor may use irony, be playful, use puns, in using a template. To all effects

I am re-tired (tired once more), re-tyred (overhauled for more dreary wiki roadwork, and retired which, as the obvious text I cited shows, in English, does not mean that one cannot return on occasion to pitch in and work at a place one was formerly employed or laboured in. I retired academic can give lectures during his retirement and no one would be stupid enough to have their hackles raised and talk of the inappropriateness. I no longer care to edit Wikipedia and am retired. I retain a right to come back briefly, as I perceive a need, and edit for a day or two every now and then.

Anyone can, with a will, master the intricately Byzantine dicta' of wiki precedent, tradition and law to make anyone's wikilife difficult. What's the point? Is my need for playfulness as a small anodyne in a stressful commitment to actually writing content in one of the so-called ultra-toxic areas of Wikipedia, where so many niggle and only a handful labour in the field, to be made an issue of because of some freaking concern that, a slight jocose dissonance undermines the order of the encyclopedia. C'mon!!! SJ has argued endlessly at AE and ANI that I be forcefully retired, so his point is understandable. Number 57, an editor I gather who dislikes my work here, but whom I respect as a highly productive, accurate and invaluable contributor, is wrong to flourish [WP:SOAP]] to characterize an empirical, accurate statement: To that Border Police shoot Palestinians is to refer to something that happens with weekly regularity, a fact duly attested by every neutral party toting up the toll, and cannot be construed as violating the principle that 'Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing.' Soapboxing in standard English usage refers to haranguing, with bludgeoning insistence, a passive audience. Gentleman, we have better things to do than to (adopting a brilliant phrase from an otherwise despicable anti-Semite) frenetiser l'insignifiance. If you insist that my playfulness must suffer correction, I of course will fuck off permanently. Nishidani (talk) 20:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

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Birth data of Japanese voice actors without indicating sources

I think it is too much, since Debiit appeared on different Wikipedias, it does not stop placing the same birth data of the Japanese voice actors without indicating any source that, according to their discussion page: the dates themselves are verifiable if you It should refer to moderately reliable sites such as Anime Network, MyAnimeList, etc. and since he is the other way around, he doesn't care and continues to add false data. I have tried to contact different Stewards on Meta-Wiki to clarify this case but they never answered their calls, meanwhile Debiit threatened to ask for global blocks to the IPs that tried to correct it and it was fulfilled.

And, of course, why Debiit removes the maintenance templates if no one else has translated or expanded it 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 and changing the images of the two actors in his own way 41, 42.

In addition, he has recently requested the temporary protection of the article Tōru Nara here upon Requests for page protection but what happens is that I translated it because users have not expanded the article enough in Japanese Wikipedia 1 and however Debiit always adds false data to the actors when he wants to, the same happened with Chika Anzai which for example tried to add truthfully the birth year 1 but, other users reverted it several times because it did not indicate the same sources. Due to his behavior and lack of understanding among several users who tried to warn him on his discussion page, almost a month ago Debiit was blocked in Wikimedia Commons allegedly for uploading unfree files after warnings and kept putting the images of the voice actors. If you have any complaints please do it here, we are tired of the same with its reversion to other users, thanks. 148.101.55.21 (talk) 17:50, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I've notified Debiit of this thread.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

First of all, I think you're a very hypocritical person. You have accused me of vandalism in numerous occasions while you are the one who is always changing or deleting the births dates of Japanese voice actors in all the Wikipedias because you want it in that way. You don't own Wikipedia, so you don't have the right to do it and to tell others what to do either, this is a free site. Honestly Wikipedia was a better place when you weren’t around. 'Me and other users'?, don't make me laugh, you are the only one who manages all the IPs and adds the expand template in articles that are complete only because 'they lack a biography', that can be considered true vandalism. Stop meddling in my affairs with other users, I'm tired of you following me around and going after my editions. And also, learn how to speak English properly before trying to take me down like this, you are always causing troubles to me and other users as well. Debiit (talk) 18:34, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

@Debiit: what is your source for the birth date in Tōru Nara? As far as I can tell, the cited source says nothing about a 1980 birth date. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:49, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Nevermind. Blocked by Bbb23. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:50, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Debiit been blocked twice before by NRP for BLP violations, and their reaction to the IP's complaints on their Talk page was almost a mirror image of what it is here. Rather than acknowledge their disruptive behavior and correct it, they attack the IP. I've therefore blocked them for one month. If their behavior persists after expiration of the block, the next block should be indefinite.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:53, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

@Bbb23:, @NinjaRobotPirate: forgot to withdraw Chika Anzai's birth year, as I said before, I was reviewing the page on Japanese Wikipedia although unfortunately I have not seen any reference of their birth and it would be better to talk to the Stewards to convince them to withdraw them, since many users of different languages ​​are guessing it, looking from the Google search and all databases. Thanks. 148.0.112.100 (talk) 22:26, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Cross wiki harassment

WP:LTA Multi IP handler 85.85.58.215 again into cross wiki harassment.

Fresh block in es:wiki and again just moved here to engage into WP:NOTHERE. See previous reports on these IPs 85.85.56.126 & 85.85.59.70.--Asqueladd (talk) 19:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)