Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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Association of Religion Data Archives and World Religion Database

Æo has removed ARDA religious estimations from various wiki pages because he says it uses some World Religion Database data which he claims is affiliated to the World Christian Database which he claims is unreliable. First of all, ARDA is completely separate from both of them. Below is ARDAs impressive resume from their about page https://www.thearda.com/about/about-the-arda

Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) strives to democratize access to the best data on religion. Founded as the American Religion Data Archive in 1997 and going online in 1998, the initial archive was targeted at researchers interested in American religion. The targeted audience and the data collection have both greatly expanded since 1998, now including American and international collections submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world. The ARDA is generously supported by the Lilly Endowment, the John Templeton Foundation, Chapman University, Pennsylvania State University and Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

ARDA Advisory Board: Renata Curty (UC Santa Barbara), Joel Herndon (Duke University), Nathaniel Porter (Virginia Tech), Ruth Tillman (Pennsylvania State University), Andrew Tyner (Center for Open Science)

ARDA Affiliates: US Religion Census, Baylor Univeristy, World Religion Database at Boston University, which is part of Brill publishing: https://www.worldreligiondatabase.org/

Here is The Harvard Library calling World Religion Database "a good source of statistics" https://guides.library.harvard.edu/religion and here's The Stanford Library https://guides.library.stanford.edu/religion saying of Arda "Data included in the ARDA are submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world. The ARDA allows you to interactively explore the highest quality data on American and international religion using online features for generating national profiles, GIS maps, church membership overviews, denominational heritage trees, tables, charts, and other reports." University of Oxford Library also recommends both of them https://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/collections-and-resources/data/finding-data/themes/religion.

Below are multiple book sources that call ARDA and the World Religion Database "Reliable", including the Oxford handbook and Cambridge University: 12, 3, 4, 5 AEO does not have ANY reputable source that calls it unreliable it is completely his personal opinion from his own original research. He thinks he knows better than Harvard and Oxford. Foorgood (talk) 23:44, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

• Since 2022, ARDA has completely reviewed its datasets and has aligned them with those of the WRD/WCD. As I have thoroughly demonstrated here, the WRD and the WCD are the same, they are the continuation of the World Christian Encyclopedia, and are ultimately produced by the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. They are therefore biased and unreliable (WP:PARTISAN, WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:SPONSORED). In any case, they should never replace data from national censuses and surveys conducted by statistical organisations. In the linked discussion, I cited extensive excerpts from WP:RS which have criticised the WRD/WCD. I have also thoroughly commented the links provided by Foorgood in support of his opinion and even provided an excerpt from one of them which demonstrates my view.
• Other users who have recently been involved in discussions about these topics can intervene: Erp, Nillurcheier, Lipwe.--Æo (talk) 23:55, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
  • The World Religion Database and World Christian Database are not officially affiliated but in any case both are considered Reliable by endless scholars including the 5 I included above such as Oxford and Cambridge.Foorgood (talk) 00:02, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Foorgood, "endless scholars" isn't going to cut it, and "Oxford and Cambridge" aren't scholars. It's important to be precise here. One of the librarians listed on one of the pages you linked confirmed to me what academics already know: a note on a library guide on a university library's website should NOT be taken as any kind of official endorsement for the reliability of that database. Drmies (talk) 01:13, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

      I have 5 books from scholars in the original post and then I added some of the many institutional examples: Harvards Library calls it "a good source of statistics for religions" right here https://guides.library.harvard.edu/religion and Stanfords Library calls ARDA "Data included in the ARDA are submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world. The ARDA allows you to interactively explore the highest quality data on American and international religion using online features for generating national profiles, GIS maps, church membership overviews, denominational heritage trees, tables, charts, and other reports" here https://guides.library.stanford.edu/religion but I'm done with this conversation. Have your way and make the source deprecated so that all the scholars and universities can continue to tell their students they shouldnt use Wikipedia. New editors here will now see that sources called good by Harvard are considered deprecated by Wiki. Foorgood (talk) 01:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

In one of the sources provided by Foorgood (F. Lionel Young, III, World Christianity and the Unfinished Task: A Very Short Introduction, Wipf and Stock, 2020), which is itself a book dedicated to a particular Protestant missionary project and view, you can read the following lines: ...Barrett's research has continued under the auspices of an organization established in 2001 named the Center for the Study of Global Christianity, now situated on the campus of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. The center's co-director, Todd Johnson, began working with Barrett in 1989, and collaborates with his colleague on several projects, including the 2001 edition of the WEC. Building on Barrett's groundbreaking work, the center launched the World Christian Database and the World Religion Database....

As a general example and point of reference, compare ARDA projections about Australia to the Australian 2021 Census (ARDA overestimates Christianity by 14%); ARDA projections about Canada to the Canadian 2021 Census (ARDA overestimates Christianity by 10%). They are completely wrong, for every single country.

A further critical remark is that ARDA data are speculative projections, not actual surveys, and therefore violate WP:CRYSTAL. There have already been discussions about these matters in the past (e.g.), and some time ago Nillurcheier and I discussed about the possibility of making these sources WP:DEPRECATED (here).--Æo (talk) 00:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Authoritative critical assessments

Religion studies scholars & statisticians

For the sake of information completeness, I re-copy hereunder the excerpts I originally reported on my (Æo's) talk page in the discussion with Foorgood.

The following academic papers express criticism about the WRD/WCD, regarding their common origin in the WCE as a missionary tool, their systematic overestimate of Christianity while underestimating other forms of religion, and their favouring certain Christian denominations (Protestant ones) over others:

• Liedhegener A.; Odermatt A. (2013). "Religious Affiliation in Europe - an Empirical Approach. The "Swiss Metadatabase of Religious Affiliation in Europe (SMRE)". Zentrum für Religion, Wirtschaft und Politik (ZRWP), Universität Luzern. doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.33430.55364. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

• p. 9: "...the World Christian Database (WCD) or the World Religion Database (WRD) which is a direct offspring of the WCD. ... In itself the latter is not an unproblematic source, because its data, gathered originally from the World Christian Encyclopedia, result mostly from country reports prepared by American missionaries. Therefore, a systematic bias of its data in favor of Christianity is a major, although controversial point of criticism".

• Hsu, Becky; Reynolds, Amy; Hackett, Conrad; Gibbon, James (2008). "Estimating the Religious Composition of All Nations: An Empirical Assessment of the World Christian Database" (PDF). Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. 47 (4): 691–692. doi:10.1111/j.1468-5906.2008.00435.x.

• p. 679: ... The main criticisms scholars have directed at the WCD concern the estimation and categorization of certain religious populations. There are questions about whether religious composition within countries is skewed by the overcounting of certain groups or variance in quality of information obtained on different religious groups. There is also concern about possible bias because the WCE was originally developed as a Christian missionary tool. Some of the country descriptions in the WCE have been characterized as having an anti-Catholic and pro-Protestant orientation (McClymond 2002:881), and Martin describes the WCE as a work "dedicated to the conversion of mankind" (1990:293). Criticisms have also been raised about projections for different religious groups and demographic trends, as the WCD provides empirical data for the population of religious groups well into the future. Doubts have been raised about the WCD's estimation and categorization of new religious groups. Steenbrink (1998) criticizes the 1982 WCE data for Indonesia, which suggest the population is only 43.2 percent Muslim and 36.4 percent "new religionist." Steenbrink maintains that those classified as "new religionists" should actually be classified as Muslim, even if stricter Islamic groups might disagree. Lewis (2004) observes that the Soka Gakkai, Rissho Kosei Kai, and Nichiren Shoshu in the Japanese Buddhist tradition are classified as new religions, whereas Pentecostals (a much more recent movement) are classified as Christian rather than a new religion. The size of Christian populations is also debated. Jenkins (2002) notes a large gap between the reported size of India's Christian population in the government census and in the WCE/WCD. While he admits that census figures omit many Scheduled Caste adherents who can lose government benefits by declaring Christian identity, he suspects the WCD overcounts Christians in India. The WCE has also been criticized for including "inadequate and confusing" categories of Christian religious groups, in particular, "Great Commission Christians," "Latent Christians," "Non-baptized believers in Christ," and "Crypto-Christians" (Anderson 2002:129). Some worry that it is difficult to distinguish Christians who keep their faith secret from Christians who practice an indigenized form of Christianity that incorporates elements of non-Christian religions. McClymond writes that estimates for the "non-baptized believers in Christ" or "non-Christian believers in Christ" in India who are Buddhist and Muslim "seem to be largely anecdotal" (2002:886). Estimates of adherents in the United States have also been challenged. Noll has questioned the designation and size of certain Christian categories, for which the WCD and WCE provide the most detail. Although he finds estimates for most Christian denominations agree with other sources, he notes that "Great Commission Christians"—a category used to describe those actively involved in Christian expansion—are estimated in the United States and Europe to be a much larger group than the number of Christians who weekly attend church (2002:451). Another cause for concern is the number of "independents," a muddled category including African-American, "community," and "Bible" churches. Changes in the data set also raise issues about categories: Anderson notes that groups previously labeled as Protestant in the first edition of the WCE in 1982 (Conservative Baptist Association of America, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and the Presbyterian Church in America) were relabeled Independent in the second edition published in 2001 (Anderson 2002). Some have argued that projections of religious composition for years such as 2025 and 2050 should not be included with the empirical data, as they are merely conjecture (McClymond 2002). Irvin (2005) argues against making predictions about the future of worldwide religion based on recent statistics because Christian growth in Asia and Africa will not necessarily continue along the trajectory it has in past decades. ....
• p. 680: ... To address the criticisms mentioned above, we compare the religious composition estimates in the WCD to four other cross-national data sets on religious composition (two survey-based data sets and two government-sponsored data sets): the World Values Survey (WVS), the Pew Global Attitudes Project (Pew), the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and the U.S. State Department (State Department). In our analysis, we find support for some of the criticisms made by reviewers ... the WCD does have higher estimates of percent Christian within countries. Another important difference between the WCD and other cross-national data sets is that the WCD includes data on 18 different religious groups for each country while other data sets only estimate the size of major religions. In evaluating some of the specific critiques discussed above, we find that WCD estimates of American Christian groups are generally higher than those based on surveys and denominational statistics. ... The majority of data came from fieldwork, unpublished reports, and private communications from contributors who are a mix of clergy, academics, and others; the Christian origins of the encyclopedia explain in part its detailed information on Christian groups. ....
• p. 684: ... Figure 1 shows that the WCD tends to overestimate percent Christian relative to the other data sets. Scatterplots show that the majority of the points lie above the y x line, indicating the WCD estimate for percent Christian within countries is generally higher than the other estimates. Although the bias is slight, it is consistent, and consequently, the WCD estimates a higher ratio of Christians in the world. This suggests that while the percentage Christian estimates are closely related among the data sets, the tendency is for them to be slightly higher in the WCD. ... On the other hand, the WCD likely underestimates percent Muslim in former Communist countries and countries with popular syncretistic and traditional religions..
• p. 692: ... We find some evidence for the three main criticisms directed at the WCD regarding estimation, ambiguous religious categories, and bias. The WCD consistently gives a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets. ... We also found evidence of overestimation when we compared WCD data on American denominational adherence to American survey data such as ARIS, due in part to inclusion of children, and perhaps also to uncritical acceptance of estimates from religious institutions. We agree with reviewers that some of the WCD's religious categories are impossible to measure accurately, such as "Great Commission Christians," "latent Christians," and "Crypto-Christians." ....
• (Added by Ramos1990). However, context matters. Here is their overall conclusion: ...In sum, we find that the WCD religious composition data are highly correlated with other sources that offer cross-national religious composition estimates. For cross-national studies, the WCD may be more useful than other sources of data because of the inclusion of the largest number of countries, different time periods, and information on all, even small, religious groups.

Missionologists

Added by Erp and Ramos1990:

• Woodberry, Robert D. (2010). "World Religion Database: Impressive - but Improvable". International Bulletin of Missionary Research. 34 (1): 21–22. ISSN 0272-6122.
  • Quote: ... the editors seem to have constructed their estimates of religious distribution primarily from surveys of denominations and missionaries, not from censuses or representative surveys of individuals ....
  • However, context matters: Despite these criticisms, we can appreciate the editors’ achievement in applying a relatively consistent methodology across the world. Furthermore, the WRD estimates are highly correlated with other cross-national estimates of religious distribution, a conclusion supported by an article by Becky Hsu and others. and also ...Still, despite my criticisms, I will eagerly use these data in my research. I do not know of any better data available on such a broad scale and am amazed at the editors’ ability to provide even tentative estimates of religious distribution by province and people group.

• Marsh, Christopher; Zhong, Zhifeng (2010). "Chinese Views on Church and State". Journal of Church and State. 52 (1): 34–49. ISSN 0021-969X. JSTOR 23922246.
  • Quote: overestimate of Christianity in China, which adds a lot to the total number and percentage of world Christians: ... At the extreme high end, the World Religion Database puts the percentage of Christians in China at 7.76 percent, or a just above 100 million, but this number is most certainly an overestimation ....

Added by Æo:

Another edition of WRD/WCD data has been the Atlas of Global Christianity (produced by the same Gordon-Conwell team). I have found negative critical assessments even for this edition, this time coming from an "insider" (Christian missionary) source, even though through an academic publisher, written by Anne-Marie Kool of the Evangelical Theological Seminary of Osijek, Croatia:

• Kool, Anne-Marie (2016). "Revisiting Mission in, to and from Europe through Contemporary Image Formation" (PDF). In Charles E. Van Engen (ed.). The State of Missiology Today: Global Innovations in Christian Witness. Downers Grove: IVP Academic. pp. 231–49.
  • p. 1: ... [the resource] seeks to give “as nuanced a picture as possible” of the history of Christianity over the last 100 years showing an “unmistakable” general pattern, that Christianity experiences a “severe recession” on the European continent that once was its primary base, while it has undergone “unprecedented growth and expansion” in the other parts of the world. ....
  • p. 2: ... widespread caution is raised with regard to the accuracy of the figures and not to engage in statistical analysis with the data, “without robustness checking… they contain random error and probably some systematic error” ....
  • p. 9, containing a self-criticism from Kool for having herself made uncritical use of the data: ... The World Christian Database and the World Religion Database serve as sources for the data of the Atlas. With regard to the methodology used, Woodberry is right in emphasizing that “more transparency is needed”. It might well be that the great quantity of details easily silenced possible critical voices. It is peculiar that hardly any serious critical interaction and discussion of the underlying methodology of the Atlas has taken place, neither of its two data providing predecessors. The data are simply taken for granted, as I have taken them for as authoritative in my teaching and research during the last two decades. ....
  • p. 12, about systematic overestimation of Christianity in Europe, with allusions that there might be financial reason behind such overestimations: ... The statistical image of Europe that is now communicated only re-enforces the image of Europe as a Christian continent, by not giving insight in the internal diversification and erosion. So why is only this broad definition used? Is it for fear of losing power? Or for maintaining the image of the numerically strong “World C” that provides the human and financial resources to “finish the task”? Are matters of Christian finance playing a role? Out of a sense of empire building? Or of a sense of hidden resistance to accept that Europe also is now also a mission field? Is it out of fear of becoming a minority? Fear for ending up statistically weaker than the Muslims? Or an attempt to cling to the influence of the “Western” over the “non-Western” world, based on an image of Europe as still a massive Christian continent? ....
  • p. 13; it is a missionary tool designed for a specific strategy of aggression towards what in American missionary Christianity has been conceptualised as the "10/40 window": ... Eric Friede’s sharp analysis points us to the fact that the Atlas is ultimately written from the perspective of the so-called Great Commission Christians, Christians who engage in and support Christian missions, as many essays address the issue of “how to grow Christianity” in a particular region. The mission strategy invoked is then one of identifying within Global Christianity the resources needed for the task, the human resources, the GCC Christians, as well as the Christian finances that could make this enterprise work. An assessment of major tools needed for finishing this task is offered in subsequent sections, like Bible translation is followed by a section on Evangelization, with a division of the world in A, B and C, according to the level “being evangelized”. Statistics are used to motivate missionaries and national workers to mission action with Christian mission being reduced to a manageable enterprise with a dominant quantitative approach and a well-defined pragmatic orientation, “as a typical school of thought coming from modern United States”. .... Kool makes largely reference to: Eric Friede, "Book Review. Atlas of Global Christianity: 1910-2010, by Johnson, T.M. & Ross, K.R. (Eds.), 2010", Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press, Theological Librarianship 3(1), 2010.

Among other sources, some of which we have already analysed, Kool makes reference to:

• Brierley, Peter. (2010). "World Religion Database: Detail Beyond Belief!". International Bulletin of Missionary Research. 34 (1): 18–20.
  • It is a critical assessment, once again coming from a missionary journal, that raises doubts as to the reliability of the WRD on the basis of the mismatch of the latter's data (purportedly based on censuses) with actual data from censuses, in particular those of the UK. Judd Birdsall and Lori Beaman, in Faith in Numbers: Can we Trust Quantitative Data on Religious Affiliation and Religious Freedom?, Transatlantic Policy Network on Religion & Diplomacy, 22 June 2020, at p. 3 say that the WRD, despite being widely cited and impressive, "comes with limitations. In his review of the Database, the statistician Peter Brierley pointed out that for the United Kingdom the Database used denominational reports, such as Church of England baptismal records, rather than the UK census figures to calculate affiliation. A tally of denominational reporting showed that 82% of Britons were Christian, whereas only 72% of them claimed to be Christian in the UK census". (n.b. Brierley makes reference to the UK 2001 census data, showing that already in 2001 the WRD overestimated Christianity in the UK by at least 10%).
  • (Added by Ramos1990). However context matters. The same source states: The WRD is a truly remarkable resource for researchers, Christian workers, church leaders, religious academics, and any others wanting to see how the various religions of the world impact both the global and the local scenes. It is always easy to criticize any grand compilation of statistical material by looking at the detail in one particular corner and declaring, "That number doesn't seem right." The sheer scope of this database, however, is incredible, and the fact that it exists and can be extended even further and updated as time goes forward in the framework of a respected university deserves huge applause for those responsible for it. Praise where praise is due, even if I am about to critique it.

Discussion (ARDA and WRD)

Part 1

The World Religion Database provides its estimates based on census and surveys: https://www.worldreligiondatabase.org/, just like Pew Research does. The sources I cited above from Oxford and Princeton call it very reliable and accurate even though it is not exact as Censuss but estimates like Pew are used all over Wikipedia.Foorgood (talk) 00:39, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

That being said, I want to confirm whether or not AEOs position is that ARDA/WRD estimates shouldn't override national censuss(which I agree with) meaning they could still be used for other estimates, OR if AEOs position is that ARDA/WRD should not be used at all(which is absurd given their reliable reputation with Oxford and Cambridge)?Foorgood (talk) 01:04, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

The WRD is not a census (survey of the entire population of a state by that state's statistical office), and, as demonstrated by Erp herebelow, their methods for collecting and elaborating data are unclear (and, n.b., circular! the WRD makes reference to Pew which in turn made reference to WRD!). With my comments, I have abundantly demonstrated the bias of the WRD and its sponsors. Please note that some of the sources you have cited are from the same sponsors of the ARDA (e.g. Pennsylvania University), others (the Oxford etc. books you claim recommend ARDA) are from years ago when the ARDA had not yet switched completely to WRD data (I myself consulted the ARDA site in 2020/2021 and their data were completely different, and more reasonable, than those from the WRD implemented after 2020/2021) and they merely list or cite ARDA as a source. That ARDA data should never replace data from national censuses is obvious. Moreover, they are WP:CRYSTAL projections. Therefore, I think that ARDA/Gordon-Conwell data, together with Pew-Templeton Global Religious Futures (another dataset of projections based on Pew 2001-2010 surveys) should be WP:DEPRECATED. Æo (talk) 10:47, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Nope you cannot radically decide to block PEW and ARDA, both globally recognized as top reliable sources, from Wikipedia just because you now think you know better than them. But what we can do is give preeminence to Censuss while allowing estimates to be provided lower in the article with the disclaimer that they are not official surveys etc. Foorgood (talk) 14:03, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

"Both globally recognized as top reliable sources". Please note that such alleged "global recognition" is basically the result of their own campaigns of promotion, and support by their allied journalistic media. Take the F. Lionel Young source cited above: it indeed praises the WRD within a chapter dedicated to statistical sources which are part of a precise Protestant Christian missionary project. These are, very simply, unreliable biased sources. Obviously, I cannot classify them as deprecated myself; this would require community consensus. Let's see how the present discussion will develop before proceeding with further steps. Æo (talk) 14:45, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

You actually think that PEW or ARDA, globally recognized as reliable, would meet all the requirements listed here?!: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deprecated_sources.. Again are you so extreme in your stance that you can't come to a compromise like you've done already by simply having Censuss take top priority on nations religions pages? Foorgood (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Regarding census data I have not come to any compromise; census data are simply the best, most accurate available. And yes, I think ARDA/WRD/WCD (alias Gordon-Conwell) and Pew-Templeton Global Religious Futures (projections based on outdated 2001-2010 surveys/collections of data) meet the requirement for deprecation. Note that deprecation does not mean banning a source (blacklisting), it's just a warning that will appear whenever contributors will insert links to such sources. Æo (talk) 17:10, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok so you are saying that you don't feel the PEW or ARDA data needs to banned entirely from articles, just given disclaimer that it's not an official survey like a census? Foorgood (talk) 17:34, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

ARDA itself is a database archive and states that when citing ARDA the original source must be included in the cite so the key question in most cases is the reliability of WRD. I have access to the World Religion Database so decided to check one recent cite in the Demographics of atheism article where the claim was "In 2020, the World Religion Database estimated that the countries with the highest percentage of atheists were North Korea and Sweden". First how on earth does anyone know what the percentage of the population are atheists in North Korea? Tunneling down through the WRD yielded the source for its info on religion in that country as "North Korea, Future of the Global Muslim Population (FGMP), 2020" and a note at the bottom of a fairly blank page was "Pew Forum Projection". Unfortunately the Pew FGMP (a) doesn't mention atheists and (b) cites the WRD as its source for the Muslim population of North Korea. I do note a WRD discussion of its methodology is at https://worldreligiondatabase.org/wrd/doc/WRD_Methodology.pdf including the paragraph:

"Religious demography must attempt to be comprehensive. In certain countries where no hard statistical data or reliable surveys are available, researchers have to rely on the informed estimates of experts in the area and subject. Researchers make no detailed attempt at a critique of each nation’s censuses and polls or each church’s statistical operations. After examining what is available, researchers then select the best data available until such time as better data come into existence. In addition, there are a number of areas of religious life where it is impossible to obtain accurate statistics, usually because of state opposition to particular tradition(s). Thus it will probably never be possible to get exact numbers of atheists in Indonesia or Baha’i in Iran. Where such information is necessary, reasonable and somewhat conservative estimates are made."

My suspicion is the estimate of the number of atheists in North Korea is a guess with very large error bars. The number of atheists in Sweden is likely to be more accurate though the latest survey they used is 2008. One should check what definition of atheist is being used by WRD. Erp (talk) 01:31, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me the 2017 Win/Gallup poll also has Sweden as the 2nd most atheist country and here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_Korea we can see 2 different estimates are used to give North Korea's high atheist percentage. Estimates have their own methodology and they are considered Reliable by Oxford and Cambridge so don't try to reinvent the wheel and say that we know better than these statisticians because if so you're going to have to remove every single estimate on Wikipedia for every topic- and there are thousands. Our job on Wikipedia is to include estimates that are reliable while obviously giving precedence to government surveys *When available*.Foorgood (talk) 01:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Actually the estimates for North Korea in the Religion in North Korea are for 'no religion' which is not the same as being atheistic. Also the 2017 Win/Gallop report (https://web.archive.org/web/20171114113506/http://www.wingia.com/web/files/news/370/file/370.pdf) has China as being the 'least religious', not atheistic, of the countries polled with Sweden second. However in the same report when it comes to percentage stating they are atheists Sweden drops below China, Hong Kong, Japan, Czech Republic, Slovenia, South Korea, France, and Belgium. North Korea for obvious reasons was not among the countries polled. This does not help in showing that WRD is a reliable source. Note that does not mean I agree with @Æo that censuses are the best sources; censuses can have biases or be incomplete and good surveys/polls can be just as reliable or better if not as precise. I would be happier with WRD if it were specific on how it got its figures for each country (among other things it would avoid articles citing X and then citing WRD which in turn was using X). Erp (talk) 17:38, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

If you click here https://www.thearda.com/world-religion/np-sort?var=ADH_704#S_1 and read the top it says "Variables: Total number of Atheists by country and percent of population that are Atheists: Persons who deny the existence of God, gods, or the supernatural. (World Religion Database, 2020) (Atheists)1" Again, you guys are acting like you know better than these world renowned sources. Foorgood (talk) 17:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Foorgood, I have thoroughly demonstrated that such "world renowned sources" are not produced by actual statisticians but by Protestant missionaries and Erp has demonstrated that their methods for collecting data are dubious. The line you have cited does not mean anything as to statistical survey methodology, it is just a conceptual category they have used to represent their data. Please read WP:NOTHERE. Æo (talk) 23:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I suspect the precision of exactly 4,016,422 atheists in North Korea in 2020, too precise for what is suppose to be an estimate. Have the authors not heard of significant figures or more likely it is an issue with the database design not being able to round? Also the definition at the top of the ARDA WRD chart is not quite the same as the one in the World Religion Database (the numbers do match). The latter definition is "Number of Atheists in this country's population. Atheists are persons professing atheism, skepticism, impiety, disbelief or irreligion, or Marxist-Leninist Communism regarded as a political faith, or other quasi-religions, and who abstain from religious activities and have severed all religious affiliation; and others opposed, hostile or militantly opposed to all religion (anti-religious); dialectical materialists, militant non-believers, anti-religious humanists, skeptics." There is a separate category for agnostics.

As for world renowned? Something can be well known yet still not be deemed reliable. I did a search of the Wiley Online Library for "World Religion Database", 27 hits though 16 of them were to a single book by the people who created the database. Wiley also includes the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion which had two of the cites (one of which was a critique of the World Christian Database). One would think people contributing to a journal on the scientific study of religion might be using this database extensively? I also did a search on "Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy" in Wiley, that had 1,248 hits.

I will note that Brian Grim's background does include a PhD in sociology from Penn State which should ensure some statistical training. Erp (talk) 00:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Oxford and Cambridge and 3 other top publishers call them reliable 12, 3, 4, 5 Why? Because they are all statisticians from Universities around the country: ARDA Advisory Board: Renata Curty (UC Santa Barbara), Joel Herndon (Duke University), Nathaniel Porter (Virginia Tech), Ruth Tillman (Pennsylvania State University), Andrew Tyner (Center for Open Science)

ARDA Affiliates: US Religion Census, Baylor Univeristy, World Religion Database at Boston University, which is part of Brill publishing: https://www.worldreligiondatabase.org/

No, you do not know better than these experts. But AEO I'm asking you, your position is that ARDA not be banned from articles you just want it with the deprecated tag?Foorgood (talk) 01:16, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

And ERP you will have to show us a screenshot if you think we will simply take your word about what WRD classifies as atheism because there is so far absolutely 0 proof of what you just stated. Foorgood (talk) 01:44, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

@Foorgood I'm not sure I'm permitted to put a screen shot in this discussion (wikipedia images are suppose to be stuff we can use in articles) or even if it would be sufficient proof for you given you apparently have no access to the database and therefore don't know what it looks like (I could after all photoshop it). Would it be better to have a third party who has access to WRD to vouch for the accuracy? A party you choose. I'm not sure whether @NebY or @Æo have access. Erp (talk) 04:24, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Nope because as I wrote below: Here is The Harvard Library calling World Religion Database "a good source of statistics" https://guides.library.harvard.edu/religion and here's The Stanford Library https://guides.library.stanford.edu/religion saying of Arda "Data included in the ARDA are submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world. The ARDA allows you to interactively explore the highest quality data on American and international religion using online features for generating national profiles, GIS maps, church membership overviews, denominational heritage trees, tables, charts, and other reports." University of Oxford Library also recommends both of them https://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/collections-and-resources/data/finding-data/themes/religion. All the top Universities call it a reliable source period you do not have ANY reputable source that calls it unreliable it is completely your personal opinion from your own original research. Foorgood (talk) 14:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@Erp: I don't have access to the database, but I personally trust your word. In any case, I think it would not be a problem if you uploaded a little screenshot of the section of the page which demonstrates unclear and circular reporting; I think it would not be a copyright violation. Regarding Foorgood, I think he is gaming the discussion system by bringing the interlocutor to exhaustion, ignoring the evidence we have put forward and stubbornly copy-pasting his links which do not demonstrate anything except that ARDA/WRD is listed among other sources on some university/library websites. Æo (talk) 17:05, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I would also remind @Foorgood: of WP:AGF. We have no reason to suspect Erp of fabricating a quotation from WRD and I very much hope that FoorGood doesn't imagine that such suspicion would be justified by or would justify misleading statements by Foorgood themself. NebY (talk) 17:41, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for pointing that out about Good Faith. I would like someone else to check given that I am using an older browser so perhaps some things are hidden from me such as lack of sources (not the definition of atheists, that is definitely there). Or I should check on a different computer. I note @Foorgood has been contacting various people and one of them might have access.

I'm actually not so sure it was circular reporting since it isn't clear whether the surveys listed by WRD were actually listed sources or listed links for related information. The idea behind the WRD makes a certain amount of sense; however, the methodology is lacking in a few ways. What are the sources for each country and a short description on how they are used, who is responsible for the calculations in each country (or are the listed editors, Todd M. Johnson, Brian J. Grim, Gina A. Zurlo, Peter Crossing, and David Hannan, responsible for all countries?), are there regular archives so a researcher using it doesn't find the data changing out from underneath them (these archives might exist); why aren't figures rounded to avoid giving a precision that is impossible for estimates? what are the error estimates?

By the way if WRD is well known (whether for good and/or for bad), it probably should have its own Wikipedia article. Erp (talk) 02:01, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Foorgood, your wrote "Oxford and Cambridge and 3 other top publishers call them reliable" and previously "they are considered Reliable by Oxford and Cambridge". Books publishesd by Oxford University Press and Cambridge University Press don't represent the opinion or judgment of OUP or CUP (or of the universities of Oxford and Cambridge), and this is true of publishers generally; for example, a book published by Harper Collins does not represent the opinion of Rupert Murdoch. An advisory board of statisticians "from Universities around the country" isn't automatically of high quality (they might be the best in the US or they might be the only ones in the US who'll work with that organisation) and the extent to which advisory boards influence an organisation's work and output varies massively. NebY (talk) 14:13, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Here is even The Harvard Library calling World Religion Database "a good source of statistics" https://guides.library.harvard.edu/religion and here's The Stanford Library https://guides.library.stanford.edu/religion saying of Arda "Data included in the ARDA are submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world. The ARDA allows you to interactively explore the highest quality data on American and international religion using online features for generating national profiles, GIS maps, church membership overviews, denominational heritage trees, tables, charts, and other reports." University of Oxford Library also recommends both of them https://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/collections-and-resources/data/finding-data/themes/religion. All the top Universities call it a reliable source period you do not have ANY reputable source that calls it unreliable it is completely your personal opinion from your own original research. Foorgood (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Foorgood, note that the sites you have linked merely list ARDA among other sources, and the blurb is likely a self-presentation. They are not critical researches; critical assessments are those like the ones from which I have excerpted the quotes reported at the beginning of the discussion (Liedhegener et al. 2013, Hsu et al. 2008). Also please note, and I repeat this for the umpteenth time, that the ARDA acquired all its data from the WRD only by 2021/2022, and before then it hosted completely different data. As already expressed before, the first problem here is the WRD, and the ARDA is the secondary problem as it functions as the dissemination platform of WRD data. Æo (talk) 17:54, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

And as you saw Harvard calls World Religion Database a good source so do yourself a favor and stop humiliating yourself trying to make it seem deprecated and pretending you know better than Harvard Stanford and Oxford. Even the Yale and Princeton Library websites suggest World Religion Database. Foorgood (talk) 17:57, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

That's better, at least to start with; you clearly identify those mentions as being from university libraries. But then you veer into saying "all the top universities", as if the libraries are the universities, as if those samples do call it a reliable source, and as if your sample proves that all "top" universities or even their libraries call it a reliable source. And then you tell me that "you do not have ANY reputable source that calls it unreliable it is completely your personal opinion from your own original research". You do not know what my opinion is; my comment above on your statements was my first. NebY (talk) 17:57, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

That first sentence from Stanford Library, "Data included in the ARDA are submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world", is also in our article Association of Religion Data Archives and has been since its origination in 2006. The Stanford page appears to be comparatively recent - note that this Jan 2022 list of guides from the Wayback Machine doesn't mention a religion page. The Stanford statement might be copied from Wikipedia, which is not a WP:RS, or both might be taken from a self-description of ARDA, whose website currently has "now including American and international collections submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world."[1] (I notice that's not such a strong statement, not making a claim about all the data.) It does not appear to be Stanford Library's independent appraisal of ARDA. NebY (talk) 17:31, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Correct, as I wrote above the blurb is a self-presentation copied and pasted here and there, including on Wikipedia. Also note that the self-proclaimed "foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world" are fundamentally the same people of the WRD alias Gordon-Conwell and of the John Templeton Foundation (another organisation about which we could report plenty of criticism). Æo (talk) 17:38, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that you'd found it on wikipedia too! NebY (talk) 17:46, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) Foorgood (talk) 18:13, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I think that much of the evidence presented so far by User:Foorgood indicates that ARDA is a reliable source. The set of references that were provided 12, 3, 4, 5 indicate that there is scholarly usage of such a database. Keep in mind that all major surveys have their limitations and none are really the final word - especially on atheism. Estimates of atheism are particularly problematic e.g. estimates from China differ between surveys (WIN-Gallup International vs Pew Research Center) and China and well... Asia alone shifts the global estimates of atheism considering that just China by itslef has the greatest number of atheists in the world. From wikipedia's stand point there is no issue using ARDA. It is not a depreciated source. It has limitations and problems like all other surveys. Attribution may solve the issues of putting any results from any particular survey in wikipedia's voice.

From the arguments presented against ARDA, none indicate that it is a depreciable source. ARDA has notable sociological researchers like Roger Finke in its board [2] and peer reviewed articles on it are also available [3]. Also, there are many hits from other scholarly sources on google scholar using the database too [4].Ramos1990 (talk) 00:11, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

In my view it is not ARDA that is in question but rather one of the databases it archives, World Religion Database. ARDA itself says that the source should be cited with ARDA just being the repository.

If I modify the google scholar search for just "World Religion Database" I get 559 results though some of them aren't exactly supportive. For instance

one article reviewing the database states

Second, the editors seem to have constructed their estimates of religious distribution primarily from surveys of denominations and missionaries, not from censuses or representative surveys of individuals

and

[things which] would radically improve the usefulness and face-validity of the data:

• Documenting how each estimate was calculated. A Webbased format is ideal for revealing this kind of information: most users would not be interested in the details, and costs to print such information would be exorbitant.
• Providing some measure of uncertainty with each estimate (e.g., standard errors or even a qualitative evaluation by the editors). Researchers could then integrate uncertainty into their statistical models or exclude cases with uncertain estimates. As it is, estimates for Afghanistan, Algeria, China, and North Korea appear as precise as estimates from Canada and Germany. (Woodberry, Robert D. (2010). "World Religion Database: Impressive - but Improvable". International Bulletin of Missionary Research. 34 (1): 21–22. ISSN 0272-6122. Retrieved 2022-11-02.)

I also noted that many of the other cites were in articles authored by the database creators.

I also did a search on jstor which tends to be a bit more selective than google scholar on what is scholarly though some recent stuff (3-5 years) may not yet be available on it. There were 31 results (with at least 3 of those by people directly involved in the database). One is by Hsu et al. 2008 mentioned above which is not favorable to the database. One article had the statement

"Relying on the 2010 estimates of the World Religion Database (WRD), this method is used in instances where no better data than the religious composition of the birth country were available" (Henning, Sabine; Hovy, Bela; Connor, Phillip; Tucker, Catherine; Grieco, Elizabeth M.; Rytina, Nancy F. (2011). "Demographic Data on International Migration Levels, Trends and Characteristics". International Migration Review. 45 (4): 979–1016. ISSN 0197-9183. JSTOR 41427975. Retrieved 2022-11-02.)

This seems to show a reluctance to use it if anything better was available. Also

"At the extreme high end, the World Religion Database puts the percentage of Christians in China at 7.76 percent, or a just above 100 million, but this number is most certainly an overestimation" (Marsh, Christopher; Zhong, Zhifeng (2010). "Chinese Views on Church and State". Journal of Church and State. 52 (1): 34–49. ISSN 0021-969X. JSTOR 23922246. Retrieved 2022-11-02.)

WRD seems to be on the edge of acceptability. At most it should only be used if no better source exists (I still can't imagine how they calculated the so very precise numbers for North Korea). Erp (talk) 02:48, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

WRD is not on the edge of acceptability. It is clearly used in the sources you cited above. Brill, which is an academic publisher, publishes the database [5] and it comes from Boston University by the way so it is RS by that measure alone. I see no reason to object to it from wikipedia's policy standpoint. The sources you brought do not show that it is a bad database, because clearly peer reviewed sources do use it. Google scholar also produces peer reviewed articles and books that use it too. I got more than 800 when looking at "world religion database (WRD)". How is this a problem for it? It is used quite a bit. Bad sources do not get used this often to build on research. So clearly it has value for academics.

Now, there are studies that do sloppy work on atheism such as WIN-Gallup which showed global atheism rising way too fast in 2012, and magically declining by half in the subsequent WIN-Gallup surveys within the same decade. This of course is preposterous - that atheists would double and then decline in 10 years. People, on a global scale, do not change radically one way and then change back in a decade. And some researchers have advised caution on WIN-Gallup's data set (e.g. Oxford Handbook of Atheism) since their numbers on atheism in China are way too large - compared to all data sets on religion and atheism available. But none of this makes WIN-Gallup an non usable or depreciated source on wikipedia.

That is because all studies have their weaknesses and they usually contradict each other in the literature (Pew vs WIN-Gallup vs WVS vs census data, etc). Wikipedia just presents what certain data sets have come up with. We as wikieditors do not psychologize or make assessments or judgments on how one database is good or bad methodologically. As long as WRD has an academic standing in some way in the literature, there is no real reason to discount it over any other. Attribution should take care of placing the weight on the database being cited for the numbers.Ramos1990 (talk) 06:10, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

As it has already been written and amply demonstrated, the ARDA is a repository of data which at some point between 2021 and 2022 changed all its datasets with those of the WRD/WCD alias Gordon-Conwell. It is the latter that is in question in this discussion, and judgment on the ARDA follows judgment on WRD/WCD. As it has been widely demonstrated, the WRD/WCD is a Protestant Christian encyclopedia, dataset and missionary tool. Its sources are Protestant Christian missionaries, for the most part, as stated in its own methodology paper (pp. 13-14: ... The WRD taps into knowledge from contacts in every country of the world who inform us on what is happening in non-traditional forms of Christianity, such as churches and insider movements ...; notice that some of these firsthand informers, "insiders", are sometimes completely out of reality: for instance, in 2013 some Protestant churches predicted that 10% of Mongolians would be Christians by 2020, yet between 2010 and 2020 (census data) Christians in the country have declined from 2.2% to 1.3%).

As for the sources you have listed (which are the same links provided by Foorgood), the respectability of the publisher or hosting site does not necessarily imply that the content is qualitative and reliable. Cf. WP:RS: WP:SCHOLARSHIP: "POV and peer review in journals": Care should be taken with journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view. A claim of peer review is not an indication that the journal is respected, or that any meaningful peer review occurs...; cf. Drmies above who has contacted one of the hosting websites: One of the librarians listed on one of the pages you linked confirmed to me what academics already know: a note on a library guide on a university library's website should NOT be taken as any kind of official endorsement for the reliability of that database.

Regarding more in detail the sources you (and Foorgood) have listed, I repeat once again: #1 is a book dedicated to a particular Protestant Christian view and project which is ultimately the same one of Gordon-Conwell; #2 is written by one of the compilers of the ARDA itself (Finke of Pennsylvania University); #3 simply lists and comments the ARDA among other resources, and, note it well, goes back to 2011 when ARDA had not yet switched to the WRD/WCD (it says that at that time its sources were mainly the World Value Survey and the International Social Survey Program); #4 is just the list of references used within the book; #5 is not a source of a good quality and in any case I don't find any reference to the ARDA. Æo (talk) 10:02, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

P.S. O.T. Regarding atheism/irreligion and WIN-Gallup, which are not into question in the present discussion, notice that the definition of "atheism" and "irreligion" can vary according to the context, and that these categories overlap and are not as well definible as belief in a specific Abrahamic religion. Also notice that "atheism" and "irreligion" can overlap with the categories of Eastern religions: Buddhists could be considered atheists, while the notion of "religion" in East Asia does not traditionally apply to non-Abrahamic religions (or to forms of East Asian religions which have adopted an organisational form similar to that of Abrahamic religions), especially to East Asian diffused traditions of worship of gods and ancestors, and the same could be said for certain non-Abrahamic religions and unorganised beliefs which are emerging in the Western world. Æo (talk) 11:25, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Part 2

Worth observing the Foorgood has repeatedly canvassed editors to this discussion; that's how Ramos1990 got here, for example. --66.44.22.126 (talk) 12:13, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Nowhere did he/her or anyone else reach out to me prior to me making a comment on this thread.

Back to the program, to the comments of AEO, I see that most of the discussion is not on whether it is academic (clearly it is - has peer review, Brill is an academic published with peer review, Boston University, notable academics head the project, many peer reviewed publications widely use it, etc). On this alone it is a RS per wikipedia. The stuff about WP:Scholarship applies to fringe publishers, but not Brill (which uses peer review).

Most of the issues that mentioned in this thread relate to methodology and the papers cited in the top of the thread (Liedhegener (2013) and Hsu (2008) both show generally positive views of WRD despite any shortcomings). This has nothing to do with the fact that it IS an academic source, is used by academics to advance research and that it used as a tool in academic research on religion worldwide. As far as I have seen, no major objections have been provided on this latter front. If bias or fault is perceived (this is not agreed upon and the uses of it in peer reviewed publications show its wide utility), this would not be a problem for wikipedia either because even WP:PARTISAN states that sources do not need to be neutral and that these sources may be better sources for numerous contexts and that attribution would be appropriate.

On top of that I see that researchers on Islam use it too The Oxford Handbook of Politics in Muslim Societies, and apparently Pew uses WRD data for some of its numbers in Africa for instance The Palgrave Handbook of Islam in Africa. (interestingly it mentions that census data have design problems as well so no dataset is without its problems - which is true since censuses have inconsistent terminology and metrics on religion and some censuses like the American one do not ask about religion). Also, the Liedhegener (2013) paper mentioned at the top of this thread says WCD was used for Encyclopedia Britannica numbers too. Here is another paper using WRD in combination with other sources to get a comprehensive demography [6]. Here is another on Islam in combination with other studies [7]. Also here is one that compares WRD numbers in New Zealand on the nonreligious along with other datasets and is comparable to Pew. Annual Review of the Sociology of Religion: Volume 7

The more I look into this the more I find that it is used quite a bit in the literature along with other datasets either As Is or in a supplementary fashion. I don't see it being used in a depreciative fashion. I see no issue with it being cited with attribution (most studies get attributed either way) and scholars generally do not have a problem with it either (which is why they use it in the first place including general positive comments on it from Liedhegener (2013) and Hsu (2008) which were cited at the top o the thread), and there certainly is no wikipedia policy basis against WRD.Ramos1990 (talk) 22:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

"...As far as I have seen, no major objections have been provided on this latter front". What needed to be said has been said, about the use of the source in certain books and about the publishers of either the source itself or books which have made use of it, and academic assessments regarding its non-neutrality and dubious methodology (with one such assessments even affirming that they "seem to have constructed their estimates... from surveys of denominations and missionaries") have been provided (please see WP:IDNHT).

Moving forward, please notice that there are various precedents of sources sponsored by or affiliated to religious organisations which have been deemed unreliable: Catholic Answers, Catholic News Agency, Church Militant, Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship, and, most significantly, the academic CESNUR and its journal Bitter Winter, which are listed among semi-deprecated sources for being "an apologia site for new religious movements, and thus is inherently unreliable in its core area due to conflicts of interest. There is also consensus that its content is unreliable on its own merits". Also the Annuario Pontificio of the Catholic Church is not used in Wikipedia for statistics about Catholics in every country of the world, so I don't see why Wikipedia should be filled with statistics produced by the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Æo (talk) 15:10, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I think we have brought up our points on the matter and when you look at the sources, they show more than what you constantly present in your quotes. The sources you presented here usually support WRD too. For instance, its own methodology paper you cited clearly shows that WRD's sources include Censuses, surveys and polls along with denominational data (see p. 4-5) methodology paper. So just isolating "from surveys of denominations and missionaries" is incorrect on methodological grounds and even this quote misrepresents the source you extracted this from (Woodberry, Robert D. (2010). "World Religion Database: Impressive - but Improvable") because after reading it, Woodberry is very positive to WRD overall and acknowledges its comparativeness with other datasets and even says "Still, despite my criticisms, I will eagerly use these data in my research. I do not know of any better data available on such a broad scale and am amazed at the editors’ ability to provide even tentative estimates of religious distribution by province and people group." Plus the fact that WRD is used by Islamic researchers, nonreligious researchers, Pew Research Center (actually integrates it as part of Pew's methodological design per Barton in Palgrave Handbook), CIA estimates (per Woodberry), and Encyclopedia Britannica (per Liedhegener) show that it much more reliable and trusted than you are willing to give credit. But since all datasets have their problems - including censuses, attribution would solve any issues. And its academic status with Brill [8] which is a peer reviewed publisher helps too.Ramos1990 (talk) 00:52, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Another edition of WRD/WCD data has been the Atlas of Global Christianity (produced by the same Gordon-Conwell team). I have found negative critical assessments even for this edition, this time coming from an "insider" (Christian missionary) source, even though through an academic publisher, written by Anne-Marie Kool of the Evangelical Theological Seminary of Osijek, Croatia:

• Kool, Anne-Marie (2016). "Revisiting Mission in, to and from Europe through Contemporary Image Formation" (PDF). In Charles E. Van Engen (ed.). The State of Missiology Today: Global Innovations in Christian Witness. Downers Grove: IVP Academic. pp. 231–49.
  • p. 1: 《... [the resource] seeks to give “as nuanced a picture as possible” of the history of Christianity over the last 100 years showing an “unmistakable” general pattern, that Christianity experiences a “severe recession” on the European continent that once was its primary base, while it has undergone “unprecedented growth and expansion” in the other parts of the world.》
  • p. 2: 《... widespread caution is raised with regard to the accuracy of the figures and not to engage in statistical analysis with the data, “without robustness checking… they contain random error and probably some systematic error” ...》
  • p. 9, containing a self-criticism from Kool for having herself made uncritical use of the data: 《The World Christian Database and the World Religion Database serve as sources for the data of the Atlas. With regard to the methodology used, Woodberry is right in emphasizing that “more transparency is needed”. It might well be that the great quantity of details easily silenced possible critical voices. It is peculiar that hardly any serious critical interaction and discussion of the underlying methodology of the Atlas has taken place, neither of its two data providing predecessors. The data are simply taken for granted, as I have taken them for as authoritative in my teaching and research during the last two decades.》
  • p. 12, about systematic overestimation of Christianity in Europe, with allusions that there might be financial reason behind such overestimations: 《The statistical image of Europe that is now communicated only re-enforces the image of Europe as a Christian continent, by not giving insight in the internal diversification and erosion. So why is only this broad definition used? Is it for fear of losing power? Or for maintaining the image of the numerically strong “World C” that provides the human and financial resources to “finish the task”? Are matters of Christian finance playing a role? Out of a sense of empire building? Or of a sense of hidden resistance to accept that Europe also is now also a mission field? Is it out of fear of becoming a minority? Fear for ending up statistically weaker than the Muslims? Or an attempt to cling to the influence of the “Western” over the “non-Western” world, based on an image of Europe as still a massive Christian continent?》
  • p. 13; it is a missionary tool designed for a specific strategy of aggression towards what in American missionary Christianity has been conceptualised as the "10/40 window": 《Eric Friede’s sharp analysis points us to the fact that the Atlas is ultimately written from the perspective of the so-called Great Commission Christians, Christians who engage in and support Christian missions, as many essays address the issue of “how to grow Christianity” in a particular region. The mission strategy invoked is then one of identifying within Global Christianity the resources needed for the task, the human resources, the GCC Christians, as well as the Christian finances that could make this enterprise work. An assessment of major tools needed for finishing this task is offered in subsequent sections, like Bible translation is followed by a section on Evangelization, with a division of the world in A, B and C, according to the level “being evangelized”. Statistics are used to motivate missionaries and national workers to mission action with Christian mission being reduced to a manageable enterprise with a dominant quantitative approach and a well-defined pragmatic orientation, “as a typical school of thought coming from modern United States”.》 Kool makes largely reference to: Eric Friede, "Book Review. Atlas of Global Christianity: 1910-2010, by Johnson, T.M. & Ross, K.R. (Eds.), 2010", Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press, Theological Librarianship 3(1), 2010.

Among other sources, some of which we have already analysed, Kool makes reference to:

• Brierley, Peter. (2010). "World Religion Database: Detail Beyond Belief!". International Bulletin of Missionary Research. 34 (1): 18–20.
  • I can't access the paper at the moment. However, it is a critical assessment, once again coming from a missionary journal, that raises doubts as to the reliability of the WRD on the basis of the mismatch of the latter's data (purportedly based on censuses) with actual data from censuses, in particular those of the UK. Judd Birdsall and Lori Beaman, in Faith in Numbers: Can we Trust Quantitative Data on Religious Affiliation and Religious Freedom?, Transatlantic Policy Network on Religion & Diplomacy, 22 June 2020, at p. 3 say that the WRD, despite being widely cited and impressive, "comes with limitations. In his review of the Database, the statistician Peter Brierley pointed out that for the United Kingdom the Database used denominational reports, such as Church of England baptismal records, rather than the UK census figures to calculate affiliation. A tally of denominational reporting showed that 82% of Britons were Christian, whereas only 72% of them claimed to be Christian in the UK census". (n.b. Brierley makes reference to the UK 2001 census data, showing that already in 2001 the WRD overestimated Christianity in the UK by at least 10%).

Æo (talk) 22:13, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Appreciate the references. However, again these do not impact WRD much at all. The Kool source on the Atlas mentions that WRD data is used by the Atlas, not that WRD is the Atlas or that the goal of the Atlas was the same as WRD. Just like Pew uses WRD, it makes no sense to associate Pew's agendas with WRD's database just because one uses the other. The Atlas' goal and interpretations numerical data is different than WRD and Kool rightly focuses on the contents of the Atlas, instead of WRD (WRD is not mentioned much throughout the paper). WRD is one data set and is not the only one and attribution solves any issues here on wikipedia. You keep on thinking that these papers are calling for the removal of WRD when they are actually trying to improve it and they continuously praise it overall. They all agree that it is very valuable and merely say that there are limitations to it - just as the same applies to Pew, Gallup, and censuses all around the world. This is nothing new in this and if you ever look at the numbers of nonreligion, for example; from Pew, Gallup, and Cenuses, there are significant discrepancies to be found there between these datasets (easy examples include China, Japan, and numerous countries in Europe like Netherlands and Sweden). They are all flawed and limited. None stands as the authority. Stuff like "spiritual but not religious" messes up the numbers because religion is not perceived in Western sense in most of the world.

If we want to criticize census data, there are papers showing the limitations and issues with that too [9]. Censuses get quantity - but they do not guarantee quality of course. In fact Pew's methodology mentions the limitations of surveys and census too (America has not asked on religion for 70 years, for example). Pew clearly states that "Censuses and nationally representative surveys can provide valid and reliable measures of religious landscapes when they are conducted following the best practices of social science research. Valid measurement in censuses and surveys also requires that respondents are free to provide information without fear of negative governmental or social consequences. However, variation in methods among censuses and surveys (including sampling, question wording, response categories and period of data collection) can lead to variation in results. Social, cultural or political factors also may affect how answers to census and survey questions are provided and recorded." Its pretty obvious that big variations exist between just these datasets alone. Anyways, Pew also mention that they used WRD data for 57 countries as a supplement in their methodology in that same section. Furthermore, Pew acknowledges that statistical reports from religious groups are also valid measures. "In cases where censuses and surveys lacked sufficient detail on minority groups, the estimates also drew on estimates provided by the World Religion Database, which takes into account other sources of information on religious affiliation, including statistical reports from religious groups themselves."

So I don't see much of an issue in light of this. So all of this thread on equating a critique of a dataset = bad dataset is preposterous when you see that all datasets have problems and issues. In fact, there is research indicating that "religion" is invented in surveys and polls (if you are interested see Wuthnow, Robert (2015). Inventing American Religion : Polls, Surveys, and the Tenuous Quest for a Nation's Faith. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780190258900.) We know that WRD is used by Pew, CIA, Encyclopedia Britannica, Islamic researchers, and nonreligious researchers among many others. But most importantly it satisfies wikipedia's RS criteria since it has peer review, and is from Brill, an academic publisher.

You cited Brierley, Peter. (2010). "World Religion Database: Detail Beyond Belief!". International Bulletin of Missionary Research. 34 (1): 18–20.. Cool. It says the same thing - that there are limitations. But keep in mind what he also clearly states "It is always easy to criticize any grand compilation of statistical material by looking at the detail in one particular corner and declaring, "That number doesn't seem right." The sheer scope of this database, however, is incredible, and the fact that it exists and can be extended even further and updated as time goes forward in the framework of a respected university deserves huge applause for those responsible for it. Praise where praise is due, even if I am about to critique it." And after reading it, the overall view is positive to WRD, not negative on WRD.Ramos1990 (talk) 02:21, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:IDNHT:

• You write: "...these do not impact WRD much at all". This is your opinion, not that of Kool, and not my opinion or that of other editors for whom the WRD's reliability is questionable.
• "The Kool source on the Atlas mentions that WRD data is used by the Atlas, not that WRD is the Atlas or that the goal of the Atlas was the same as WRD". Kool is clear: "The World Christian Database and the World Religion Database serve as sources for the data of the Atlas", and the Atlas is produced by the very same Gordon-Conwell team.
• As for the rest of your message, it is completely off-topic and diverts from the main theme. Censuses, Pew, CIA, Britannica (of which the latter two are not statistical organisations and only cite figures taken from other sources) are not what is being discussed here. Indeed, Pew-Templeton's Global Religious Futures is affected by the present discussion since it, just like ARDA/WCD/WRD, is a violation of WP:CRYSTAL (pseudodata projections based on Pew's 2001-2010 cycles of surveys, which are being presented throughout Wikipedia as hard data for 2020, 2030, 2040, 2050). The fact that Pew used the WRD for some of its data only detracts from Pew's own quality.

Æo (talk) 14:24, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

The Atlas uses WRD as a source for its data, like you mentioned. So does Pew, Muslim researchers, nonreligion researchers, etc. None of this means that WRD is equivalent to the interpretations, contents, views or arguments presented in the Atlas, Pew, Muslim, nonreligion sources. It is just a dataset. In terms of projections, I am sure you already know that ALL projections are wrong. In the last quarter century it was projected by numerous sources and studies that significant parts of the world would not be religious, due to secularization. But this never happened. Projections are usually wrong. But that is a different discussion.Ramos1990 (talk) 16:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Not being sure, whether it is the right place, I am repeating my comment regaridng sources for membership data in religious bodies. They should be used according this priority ranking: 1. Data of the religious body itself if officially counted like in Austria and Germany 2. Census data like in India, Indonesia and many other contries 3. Data from high quality independent surveys like in Spain or US 4. CIA data may fill the remainig gaps 5. Data from missionary sources should be avoided! Nillurcheier (talk) 10:55, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Nillurcheier, in the next days I will proceed with drawing up a summary rationale and a RfC for the deprecation of missionary and projected data. Æo (talk) 01:07, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Summary of general consensus

According to authoritative assessments provided hereinabove:

• The following ARDA/WCD/WRD alias Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary datasets are WP:SPONSORED by Christian missionary organisations, are therefore WP:PARTISAN and are ultimately WP:QUESTIONED; moreover, they are WP:CRYSTAL, since their data are projections from the past (1900) to the future (2050) made on the basis of unclear and non-empirical methodologies (i.e. they lack concrete grounding in data provided by actual surveys of populations):
  • https://www.gordonconwell.edu/
  • https://worldreligiondatabase.org/
  • https://worldchristiandatabase.org/
  • https://www.thearda.com/
• The Pew-Templeton Global Religious Futures dataset (n.b. not other studies made by the Pew Research Center) presents problems similar to those of ARDA/WCD/WRD/GC datasets as to the reliability of projections (WP:CRYSTAL; from 2010 to 2050, and sometimes to 2070 and 2100), although in this case the methodology is somewhat clearer (their projections are based on censuses of the early 2000s and Pew's own surveys conducted prior to 2010, the year from which the GRF data were projected; however, note well that Pew's surveys conducted after 2010, focused on religion demographics of the United States in 2014, 2019 and 2021, have already disproven previous GRF projections):
  • http://www.globalreligiousfutures.org/
  • https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/religious-projection-table/
  • https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

N.b. the links may not be exhaustive, as the data have been replicated on various other websites.

The problem with these datasets has arisen since they have been passed off in various Wikipedia articles as hard data (which they are not, as they are projections). In any case, there is general consensus, both in the discussion hereinabove and in past discussions on other Wikipedia talk pages, that projected data and data produced by missionary organisations should never be used to replace census data and data produced by professional (non-partisan) statistical organisations.--Æo (talk) 22:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Correction to the "summary of general consensus"

Parts 1 and 2 of the whole discussion clearly show massive disagreements among editors on everything mentioned in the "Summary of general consensus". There was no consensus.

• The sources used "authoritative assessments provided hereinabove" generally support the use of either of the 3 databases they discuss (ARDA, WCD, WRD). These sources do not depreciate theses databases and some specifically mention that they use these databases themselves. I extracted more quotes at the bottom of some of these sources to show context since it looks like ignoring the positive things they say would distort their assessment. Context matters and transparency is important.

• Pew-Templeton Global Religious Futures was not discussed much either and even here there were clear disagreements among editors.

• The notion of using projection data was not discussed much throughout this whole discussion and in the little that was mentioned, there were clearly disagreements among editors.Ramos1990 (talk) 01:13, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Replying to your points,

• 1) There is a general consensus that the sources are questionable, both from the present discussion and past ones. In the present discussion, 5 users have raised concerns, while 2 (i.e. you and Foorgood) have continued to repeat the same things to support the datasets. The consensus, from both the present and past discussions, is that these sources should never replace censuses and surveys from statistical organisations; it is not about deprecation, as we have not reached that point yet, and it will require a RfC.

• 2&3) About GRF and projections, I mainly referred to past discussions. In any case, they are against WP:CRYSTAL and passing them off as actual data is very simply an untruth.

--Æo (talk) 00:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

We should leave it up to an uninvolved editor to summarize this whole discussion, not you or me. Other editors have not agreed to your points. Most just provided very few comments early on on what makes the source relaible or not per wikipedia criteria. None of which look like they mention your points one methodology at all. And none said these were unreliable explicitly either.Ramos1990 (talk) 01:13, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Ramos1990, I agree about an uninvolved closure. However, my summary was not meant to close the discussion, it was meant to provide a rationale for a RfC as the next step. In any case, I have taken part in various discussions concerning this topic over the years, in many of which Iryna Harpy also participated and supported my views; my idea of consensus is built on those past discussions too.--Æo (talk) 01:28, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

P.S. The issue about methodology was first raised by Erp, then further investigated by me, and is mentioned in particular in one of the excerpts from Anne-Marie Kool's paper.--Æo (talk) 01:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

RfC: deprecation of Gordon-Conwell's WRD/WCD/ARDA & Pew-Templeton's GRF

QUESTION: Should we deprecate the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary's World Religion Database/World Christian Database, also published by the Association of Religion Data Archives, as WP:SPONSORED, WP:PARTISAN, WP:QUESTIONABLE & WP:CRYSTAL, and the Pew-Templeton's Global Religious Futures dataset as WP:CRYSTAL, thus as unreliable sources in the field of religion statistics and demographics?

Please see:

• The summary of general consensus as a rationale for deprecation, with the main links to the datasets in question.
• The entire discussion above, and in particular the authoritative critical assessments that have been collected.

Further considerations:

• Note well that this RfC for deprecation is unrelated to the "general consensus" elaborated hereabove, which is built on the discussion further above plus the fragmented consensuses about the same issue reached over the years in various Wikipedia talk pages (according to which the datasets in question should never replace data from censuses and statistical organisations, as they are built largely on Christian missionary sources and/or speculative projections, not yielded by actual surveys); this RfC will only enforce that consensus through deprecation, in case the community will express itself in favour of deprecation.
• A RfC for deprecation is needed because, despite the aforementioned fragmented consensuses collected over the years, the datasets in question are periodically re-added to Wikipedia articles about countries and religion demographics and passed off as results of actual surveys, and this could be better curbed with a deprecation warning.

Nom:--Æo (talk) 19:27, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Survey (GC's WRD/WCD/ARDA & PT's GRF)

Please respond Yes or No.

• No. I'm not seeing reasoning in your arguments here or in past discussion that are compelling. WP:PARTISAN does not affect the reliability of the source, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. I think we can all agree that census data should be used where it can, but when we don't have it, we used the best we can find. Unfortunately, humanity has had to rely on religious sources for centuries, across many fields, because they were often the only institution with the means or authority to collect the data. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:58, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Pyrrho the Skipper, the problem of reliability is not that these datasets are "religious sources" (there can be datasets provided by religious organisations that are neutral, such as the membership registers published by churches in Germany and Austria). The problem with these datasets is that they have been widely questioned by academic critique as being driven by a systematic bias. Besides the bias, the main problem for Wikipedia is that these datasets are projections and are periodically re-added to Wikipedia articles, passed off as hard data, often even overwriting data from censuses and reliable surveys held by statistical organisations (e.g. [10], [11], [12]), so even in those cases (and they are the majority) where there are better and neutral sources (censuses and reliable surveys). A good comparison, and precedent, is the CESNUR, which is currently deprecated because it was ascertained to be driven by a systematic bias in favour of various new religious movements. In any case, deprecation is not a complete blacklisting, and in this case it would only be a warning that these datasets are questioned by RS and there are better sources to use. Æo (talk) 17:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• No Below is ARDAs impressive resume from their about page https://www.thearda.com/about/about-the-arda

Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) strives to democratize access to the best data on religion. Founded as the American Religion Data Archive in 1997 and going online in 1998, the initial archive was targeted at researchers interested in American religion. The targeted audience and the data collection have both greatly expanded since 1998, now including American and international collections submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world. The ARDA is generously supported by the Lilly Endowment, the John Templeton Foundation, Chapman University, Pennsylvania State University and Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

ARDA Advisory Board: Renata Curty (UC Santa Barbara), Joel Herndon (Duke University), Nathaniel Porter (Virginia Tech), Ruth Tillman (Pennsylvania State University), Andrew Tyner (Center for Open Science)

ARDA Affiliates: US Religion Census, Baylor Univeristy, World Religion Database at Boston University, which is part of Brill publishing: https://www.worldreligiondatabase.org/

Here is The Harvard Library calling World Religion Database "a good source of statistics" https://guides.library.harvard.edu/religion and here's The Stanford Library https://guides.library.stanford.edu/religion saying of Arda "Data included in the ARDA are submitted by the foremost religion scholars and research centers in the world. The ARDA allows you to interactively explore the highest quality data on American and international religion using online features for generating national profiles, GIS maps, church membership overviews, denominational heritage trees, tables, charts, and other reports." University of Oxford Library also recommends both of them https://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/collections-and-resources/data/finding-data/themes/religion.

Below are multiple book sources that call ARDA and the World Religion Database "Reliable", including the Oxford handbook and Cambridge University: 12, 3, 4, 5

Foorgood (talk) 19:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• No. Having read through all of this, I think that while some individual sources do question the databases noted above (unsurprising given the controversy of religious topics in general), I think there is no basis for deprecation. Given the number of well-respected institutions that recommend the sources, as noted above, I'm inclined to think these are reliable enough for Wikipedia's purposes. --Jayron32 19:18, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• No… but: I don’t think deprecation is the right answer here… but… Perhaps in-text attribution should be required. This would prevent the data being presented in Wikipedia’s voice, and alert the reader that there might be bias in its compilation. Blueboar (talk) 20:01, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes. For details, see my previous reply to Pyrrho the Skipper, plus my previous discussions with Nillurcheier and Lipwe ([13], [14]), and Erp ([15]). Moreover note that, as it has been pointed out by NebY in the discussion above, the fact that the datasets in question are listed on the websites of academic institutions (Foorgood has copy-pasted the very same message which started the entire discussion) does not imply that they are reliable and that said academic institutions support them (Drmies even contacted one such institutions and they confirmed this). The solution invoked by Blueboar ("...alert the reader that there might be bias...") would be possible, in my opinion, only through a deprecation warning.--Æo (talk) 20:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Aren't users who initiate RFCs not supposed to make a vote? In any case User Ramos1990 would make 5 NOs to your RFC.. Do you not give up when you have been denied?Foorgood (talk) 21:00, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
    • At WP:RFC I have not found a precise rule that forbids the nom to express his vote (if there is such a norm, I will strike my comment). In any case, it's certainly not a double vote. Æo (talk) 21:13, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
      • Foorgood, don't be silly. Of course the nominator has a say here. Why shouldn't they? And Ramos1990 does not count for five. Drmies (talk) 21:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes--meaning, the numbers simply cannot be accepted at face value, and I'm somewhat more critical here than Blueboar, whose opinion I value, is. If scholars agree that for instance the number of Chinese Christians is inflated, then the basic facts supplied by the database are in question. If I read one more time that "Below is ARDAs impressive resume from their about page" or some such thing I'm going to cry--it is very unfortunate that Foorgood keeps repeating the same points no matter how much scholarship Æo cites. I was pinged here because I contacted one of the librarians on whose page the database was linked, pointed them to the discussion (weeks ago), and they told me they would rephrase the "recommendation" on their website--and noted of course how linking something is HARDLY the same as giving a wholehearted endorsement. Foorgood seems to be deaf to such arguments. Randykitty, I'm wondering if you have an opinion here--and the time to read through this long, long thread. I'll add that for me this is a tricky decision, because Brill is one of those publishers that I tell my students are eminently reliable--and not just because they published my book, haha. Drmies (talk) 21:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  Ah yes I will take your word about the librarian. Maybe I will call another librarian and get a statement that they still recommend WRD.. in any case Ramos already stated he will come respond with a NO so the majority will overrule such an absurd request for deprecation. At that point maybe we will finally stop hearing of such "repetitions" you allude to.

  Foorgood (talk) 22:20, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• No These databases seem to be respected sources by demographers and are NOT partisan. Brill publishes these and it is academic. These databases are actually used by a diversity of scholars and authoritative sources such as scholars of Islam (e.g. The Oxford Handbook of Politics in Muslim Societies), scholars of nonreligion / irreligion (e.g. Annual Review of the Sociology of Religion: Volume 7), Pew Research Center's uses it in own methodology and database (see Pew's methodology and The Palgrave Handbook of Islam in Africa), is used for CIA estimates (per Woodberry in " authoritative critical assessments" link in RFC), and is used by Encyclopedia Britannica (per Liedhegener in "authoritative critical assessments" link in RFC).

I extracted more quotes from the "authoritative critical assessments" link in RFC because upon closer inspection they do not really support the claims in the RFC. They actually show deep respect for these databases, not depreciation:

- Hsu, Becky; Reynolds, Amy; Hackett, Conrad; Gibbon, James (2008). "Estimating the Religious Composition of All Nations: An Empirical Assessment of the World Christian Database" - here is their overall conclusion: "In sum, we find that the WCD religious composition data are highly correlated with other sources that offer cross-national religious composition estimates. For cross-national studies, the WCD may be more useful than other sources of data because of the inclusion of the largest number of countries, different time periods, and information on all, even small, religious groups." Even in the abstract of the paper they state that World Christian Database highly correlated with 4 other databases: World Values Survey, Pew Global Assessment Project, CIA World Factbook, and the U.S. Department of State.

- Woodberry, Robert D. (2010). "World Religion Database: Impressive - but Improvable" - "Despite these criticisms, we can appreciate the editors’ achievement in applying a relatively consistent methodology across the world. Furthermore, the WRD estimates are highly correlated with other cross-national estimates of religious distribution, a conclusion supported by an article by Becky Hsu and others." and also "Still, despite my criticisms, I will eagerly use these data in my research. I do not know of any better data available on such a broad scale and am amazed at the editors’ ability to provide even tentative estimates of religious distribution by province and people group."

- Brierley, Peter. (2010). "World Religion Database: Detail Beyond Belief!" - "The WRD is a truly remarkable resource for researchers, Christian workers, church leaders, religious academics, and any others wanting to see how the various religions of the world impact both the global and the local scenes. It is always easy to criticize any grand compilation of statistical material by looking at the detail in one particular corner and declaring, "That number doesn't seem right." The sheer scope of this database, however, is incredible, and the fact that it exists and can be extended even further and updated as time goes forward in the framework of a respected university deserves huge applause for those responsible for it. Praise where praise is due, even if I am about to critique it."

As others and I have mentioned, ATTRIBUTION would resolve any issues since it would not put anything from any demography source in wikipedia's voice. All sources should be attributed since none are the last word on religious demography.Ramos1990 (talk) 05:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes on World Religion Database with a caveat. In my own examination of the database, I think the detail is beyond belief and I think they fail the Accurate part of CRAAP (https://guides.library.illinoisstate.edu/evaluating/craap) in that they (a) fail to list their sources or describe how they got their numbers in at least a few cases (e.g., North Korea), (b) they are precise to single digits in cases where that is extremely unlikely to be accurate (again North Korea), (c) they don't give error bars. I also noted very few peer reviewed articles that use the data outside of Christian mission related articles. The caveat, no scholar has taken them to task in a public take down. I note that Johnson and Grim are aware of the issues of getting accurate data; it just isn't reflected in the data. If it is determined that World Religion Database is a 'reliable' enough source, I strongly suggest an article on it so readers can make their own evaluations. However, I think it is better to say we lack information on religious demographics rather than use what might not be good. On ARDA, it is a database repository and each database within it must be evaluated on its own merits; ARDA itself is not a source and explicitly says the actual source should be cited. --Erp (talk) 06:37, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  The CRAAP test is really relevant. I think something similar, or the CRAAP itself, should be adopted as part of the WP:RS policy. Æo (talk) 18:45, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

• No As already mentioned by a few here, Brill is an academic publisher for these databases : see [16] and [17] and do not look partisan as is claimed in the RFC since their databases extensively use empirical data from secular sources like general censuses, polls, surveys in addition to the field records which are quite unique (see for example [18]). On top of the that, the "criticism" sources mentioned in the RFC as "authoritative critical assessments" are overall constructive criticisms that are friendly to these databases to the point that yes, they either show eagerness to use these databases themselves or give praise to it despite any quibbles. The Hsu 2008 paper clearly states positive vibes "We test the reliability of the WCD by comparing its religious composition estimates to four other data sources (World Values Survey, Pew Global Assessment Project, CIA World Factbook, and the U.S. Department of State), finding that estimates are highly correlated." and also "Religious composition estimates in the WCD are generally plausible and consistent with other data sets." This should not be ignored since that supposed "criticism" paper clearly shows the opposite of the RFC. Like others have mentioned, attribution would be a good practice when using demographic data from any source since no one source is the authority in religion demographics either way. Wareon (talk) 16:45, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  They do not use census data. That description is misleading. Compare ARDA/WRD Australia to Australia 2021 Census; ARDA/WRD Canada to Canada 2021 Census; ARDA/WRD Switzerland to Switzerland 2020 Census; ARDA/WRD Estonia to Estonia 2021 Census, and so on.

  Indeed, among the critical sources provided in the discussion above, you find, for instance, that:

  • Woodberry 2010: ...the editors seem to have constructed their estimates of religious distribution primarily from surveys of denominations and missionaries, not from censuses or representative surveys of individuals....
  • Liedhegener & Odermatt 2013, p. 9: ...a systematic bias of its data in favor of Christianity is a major, although controversial point of criticism....
  • Hsu et al. 2008, p. 684: ...Figure 1 shows that the WCD tends to overestimate percent Christian relative to the other data sets. Scatterplots show that the majority of the points lie above the y x line, indicating the WCD estimate for percent Christian within countries is generally higher than the other estimates. Although the bias is slight, it is consistent, and consequently, the WCD estimates a higher ratio of Christians in the world. ... On the other hand, the WCD likely underestimates percent Muslim in former Communist countries and countries with popular syncretistic and traditional religions....

  The WCD/WRD correlates with other datasets for statistics about certain religions but not others; in particular, there is a systematic overestimation of Christianity in every country of the world (e.g. the statistics for Estonia, where Protestants are 10% according to the national census, and 24% according to WCD/WRD projection). Æo (talk) 17:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  6 no's to 3 yes's. I want to know at what point will AEO accept the wiki community's decision and stop griping for his opinion to be accepted? Foorgood (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

LBC News

The British radio station LBC News publishes online news articles at https://lbc.co.uk/news . It was previously discussed at RSN here. Is this article a reliable source?

• Davidson, Gina (17 June 2022). "NHS apologises for claiming eunuch is a gender identity". LBC. Retrieved 3 November 2022.

There is a related RfC at Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People#RfC: Eunuchs. Cheers, gnu57 13:38, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

• I don't think reliability is the concern here. Nobody is claiming the article is factually incorrect (though it may have issues). Several editors are trying to insert a "controversy" into an article that is only mentioned by press with an openly trans hostile editorial stance, or in the case of the LBC piece above, a journalist with a trans hostile agenda. The context for the LBC piece is the Gender Recognition Act changes in Scotland (which the journalist opposes) and can be viewed from that point of view as randomly digging up dirt. Most sources have ignored this story. WP:PROPORTION is what matters here, and the "body of reliable sources" includes those who choose to regard this "controversy" as a nothingburger. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Bias in sources advises us "This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether." So we need to be concsious of both bias and reliability in our sources when working out whether to include something. -- Colin°^Talk 16:33, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  I brought LBC to RSN because Newimpartial said Since when would LBC be considered a "reliable source"? and No, LBC isn't "a mainstream news organisation". I have no interest in relitigating the rest of the WPATH RfC here. gnu57 13:06, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, it's a WP:NEWSORG and I see no reason to consider it unreliable. I invite anyone to read the article. How on earth is this being tarred as a "trans hostile agenda"? Like, just read it! The stuff about outlets having a "openly trans hostile editorial staff" is completely unsupported. This seems to be the fallacy of taking the most radical activists on a subject and assuming they and they alone represent the legitimate viewpoint on a matter. Imagine if people started saying anything less than abolishing police or instituting communism was anti-black or anti-labor. Then, that preconceived political viewpoint is used as a yardstick to reject any sources deemed insufficiently deferential to the activists' demands as too biased to be reliable and summarily UNDUE. That's where we're at with some of the rhetoric on trans issues. In reality, lots of trans people are not too keen to have their situations conflated with stuff like becoming a eunuch for whatever reason. Crossroads ^-talk- 17:11, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes. This noticeboard is about the reliability of sources. No reason has been given for judging that LBC is unreliable. Colin’s argument about whether inclusion is proportionate belongs on the article Talk page, not here, but I think it is worth saying here that referring to a publication as having an openly trans hostile editorial stance sounds like WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. PinkNews is grossly biased, yet it is accepted as a reliable source. Sweet6970 (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  See False equivalence. Just because two things are in opposition, doesn't mean they have equal value. WP:HID and all that. If we claimed that a source was "Openly hostile against black people" and your response was to cite a source that says "Maybe black people should be treated with due decency and respect and should be afforded the same human rights as others" as "grossly biased", you're both right and wrong. I want my sources grossly biased in favor of decency and basic human rights. You're supposed to want that kind of editorial stance. Sure, "supports bigotry" and "opposes bigotry" are opposing viewpoints, but I wouldn't be fighting hard against sources that are grossly biased against bigots. It's not a good look. --Jayron32 19:37, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  I can’t work out what you’re talking about, since your post does not seem to have any logical connection with my post. And if your intent is to accuse me of being a racist, please post this on my Talk page – where it will be duly ignored. Sweet6970 (talk) 19:53, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  Jayron is making a parallel between sources that are openly hostile against trans people (like the Telegraph), against those that were historically openly hostile against black people. In both cases, the sources that are hostile against a minority are those biased against "decency and basic human rights", and that as an editorial stance we should favour sources that are biased towards "decency and basic human rights". Another equally relevant comparison would be comparing the UK media's current anti-trans stance, versus the UK media's anti-homosexual stance in the 1970s-1990s. According to Julia Serano, trans people are at least the fourth minority group targeted for bathroom panics. Past targets included Jews during the Blood libel panics of the 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 19th, and 20th centuries, black people during the US Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s-60s, and homosexuals during the 1970s-1990s. With both the anti-black and anti-gay panics in particular, many of the headlines like "X is coming for your children in public bathrooms" are directly interchangeable across all three eras.

  The logical connection is that sources, and by extension editors who defend those sources, are on the wrong side of history, and that it is "not a good look" to oppose a minority. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:38, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  If Jayron wants to explain what they meant, and how this relates to my comment, they could do this themselves. There is no point in engaging on this page in any discussion which includes reference to editors being ‘on the wrong side of history’, since this is meaningless. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:09, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  It's really very simple. If one source takes a stance that bigotry against trans people is a good thing, and a different source takes a stance that bigotry against trans people is a bad thing, while it is true that they have opposite biases, that doesn't mean we give equal weight merely because they hold opposing positions. The position that is opposed to bigotry, or in your words, "grossly biased" against bigotry, is the one we're supposed to favor. The neutral position is not "pro-bigotry" and "anti-bigotry" are equivalent, so we give them equal weight. The neutral position is bigotry is bad, and we don't pretend that pro-bigotry perspectives are worth giving weight to. Also, I haven't said one word about you or what you believe or are. I've only ever mentioned the sources. You believe what you want to believe, I don't give a shit about you. --Jayron32 11:15, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

The point that is important is that this noticeboard won't settle your question for inclusion. WP:VNOT. -- Colin°^Talk 19:58, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Umm… I can’t get that point from Jayron’s comment. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I'll make it simpler. You are wrong. And persisting to argue here about whether LBC is a reliable source is wasting everyone's time, because it doesn't help your case. And selecting hateful sources and demanding Wikipedia repeats their hate, is not earning you any brownie points. -- Colin°^Talk 21:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Colin, this is supposed to be a discussion about whether LBC is a reliable source. It seems that you disagree with me about that. But I don’t know whether that is what you mean when you say that I am wrong. Nor do I know what you mean when you say selecting hateful sources and demanding Wikipedia repeats their hate; this does not relate to anything I have said here. Please stick to the point on this page.

If you want to engage in personal insults, then the appropriate place to do so is on my Talk page: but I’m not much interested in being insulted. Sweet6970 (talk) 22:11, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

• No - the LBC site is an adjunct of a right-wing talk radio establishment; I don't believe that its blogroll has a reputation for editorial oversight or fact-checking. Newimpartial (talk) 23:45, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

To describe "LBC" as "right-wing talk radio" is absolutely detached from reality. It certainly has some right-wing presenters, but it also has leftist Lewis Goodall, and prominent centrists like James O'Brien and Andrew Marr. It's a bit right-wing for my taste, but it is well to the left of the Telegraph or the Washington Post. In any case, political positions do not determine reliability. Boynamedsue (talk) 03:36, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be fairer to say LBC has a history of hiring contributors with strong views who are not afraid to share them, vs somewhere like the BBC which is much stricter (if imperfect) at aiming for impartiality. I don't know whether it has a track record on trans issues, but the particular journalist (who is a new hire on Scottish politics) does, and presumably LBC likes the fact that they say controversial / populist things. While I think papers like the Telegraph are so extremely anti-trans that it is clear some of their stories are just plain made up and misrepresent the facts, the main problem with such sources is that selecting them selects for bias. It is tricky, when more neutral sources write nothing. Wikipedia has always had a problem in this area. WP:PROPORTION says "For example, a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially for recent events that may be in the news." Which is exactly what that Scottish debacle was: unimportant to the article topic. Most of those newspapers were dealing with the self ID debate in Scotland and the Scottish National Gender Identity Clinical Network (which doesn't even have an article). So it is arguable those sources were not writing about the article topic, but about another topic and happened to bring in this side issue because it helped their case.

So I do think it is important for both sides to abandon trying to win some vote over whether LBC is generally reliable. If they dropped the journalist who wrote the above article, and hired Ugla Stefanía Kristjönudóttir Jónsdóttir, a trans journalist, from the Metro tabloid then maybe your view of LBC as a source would change. LBC would need to be Daily Mail level unreliable for you to get a no response. What you have in the above debate is not editors examining the literature on WPATH guidelines and writing a balanced article, but editors doing a google search and finding random stuff on the internet. The debate is not WP:V but about neutrality and weight. -- Colin°^Talk 08:36, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Is it possible that you have confused LBC with GB News? gnu57 13:06, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

There was a period where Nigel Farage had a talk show on the station, which led to a feeling it was going down the right-wing shock jock route. But he's was sacked in 2020 for comparing Black Lives Matter to the Taliban. Rise of the British shock jock gives a good analysis and points towards Talkradio being the new shock jock home. -- Colin°^Talk 13:26, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

It should also be noted that LBC is primarily a talk radio station, which has recently become national and was previously London only. As a news website it is a minnow with a miniscule readership compared to BBC or Guardian. So the fact this story was found there reflects Google's ability to find keywords buried deep inside a story about something else on a minor news site. -- Colin°^Talk 13:35, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Since you say it is a minor news site and was offering a platform to ideologues as recently as 2020, it sound that it is not generally reliable, unless there is evidence that it is. Andre🚐 09:52, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I doubt there's a rule that says that news sites can't offer a platform to ideologues in editorial sections without being considered unreliable. We may imagine that there's some correlation there, but it seems to me that it would be wrong to label the non-editorial section of a news site unreliable because of things found on the editorial section. Benevolent Prawn (talk) 23:20, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes. I don't see any evidence presented for its unreliability, and it is a prominent broadcaster. News articles like the one above should be fine to use.Boynamedsue (talk) 03:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
• Colin makes the salient point here; reliability of the source is not at hand. The relevant position is WP:DUE; not every single thing written in every single reliable source needs to be included in a Wikipedia article, While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article. In particular, if a story appears only in a single, or a very small number of sources, it may not be a story that is relevant or important to the subject. The reliability of a source doesn't come into it here; of course if the source isn't reliable, then we shouldn't pay any attention to it at all, but even if we concede that the source is, there still needs to be consensus that the story is relevant, in the sense that it's worth documenting. Deciding which things are, and are not, worth documenting often comes down to seeing how widespread the coverage of the subject is, what kinds of sources cover it, etc. etc. That requires analysis and discussion, and isn't something we can just say "It's reliably sourced, so it must be included". Reliable sourcing is required, but is not sufficient, when deciding to include something. If there is a good faith dispute over the relevance, or wording, or phrasing, or how much of the article space to dedicate to it (if any), all of that really just depends on consensus building. There is no magic pill that means that either side in such a dispute "wins". There is only discussion and consensus. --Jayron32 11:50, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Could I move that this be speedily closed? No real arguments against reliability have been presented, and I think most contributors agree that the actual question is whether the claims in the source merit inclusion in a particular article according to WP:DUE? Boynamedsue (talk) 14:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes Mainstream standard news organisation, passes WP:NEWSORG.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 18:59, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  Has anyone provided any evidence that LBC is either "mainstream" or "standard"? Perhaps I missed it. this was literally the first secondary source I found, and it doesn't support reliability. Newimpartial (talk) 19:07, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  I thought we didn't treat MBFC as reliable for analysing RSs. Anyway, the only failed fact checks that article seems to discuss when is when their opinion commentators on-radio said something factually inaccurate. The same way we do not treat opinion pieces as reliable other than for the opinion itself the same would apply here.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:15, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  I agree MBFC doesn't work, and isn't reliable, but everything I'm reading says that LBC is a right-wing opinionated talk radio outlet seen as an alternative, more politically incorrect and opinionated radio than the BBC. Usually in the US at least talk radio outlets lack the editorial oversight of a NEWSORG. Feel free to offer evidence otherwise. Andre🚐 21:40, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Andre, what is the "everything you are seeing" which suggests that LBC is a "right-wing orientated talk radio"? As mentioned above, many of their presenters are centrist or left-wing, and explicitly state those views in their show. Their news partners are Sky News, a reliable organisation, and their news output is covered by Ofcom's rules on impartiality and accuracy. These rules are actually much stricter than those which apply to the British newspapers we accept as reliable sources.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:18, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Particularly this Guardian piece. Andre🚐 08:52, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, that is an opinion piece from 8 years ago. A lot has changed in that time. Nobody is arguing there aren't right-wing presenters at LBC, particularly Ferrari, but flagship-presenter O'Brien (whose liberality the author questions) has become one of the strongest anti-Brexit voices in the media and is an open supporter of the current Labour leadership. And even back then, the article mentions the breakfast show hosted by Red Ken. The news coverage is regulated to be more neutral than the talk output, which would always only be valid as attributed opinion anyway. --Boynamedsue (talk) 09:12, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

That's fair, I still feel this opinionated/biased talk radio outlet isn't a reliable source for information about gender identity or medical endocrinology, or for statements such as Scottish NHS bosses have been forced to apologise and launch an investigation after the organisation published a document to its staff suggesting eunuch should be recognised as a formal gender identity, and as a result, men seeking castration should be helped to receive it. I stand by "no" Andre🚐 09:24, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Andrevan: Thank you for your reply, though I respectfully disagree. Opinionated/biased talk radio outlet isn't a reliable source for information about gender identity or medical endocrinology- I definitely agree that this is opinionated, and caution is needed per WP:DUE (which isn't a RS issue), along with extraordinary claims definitely requiring additional caution. But to me that is mostly within the boundaries of WP:BIASED and might push it over to additional considerations apply, nevertheless, I still don't see a convincing case it should be downright unreliable here. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 09:30, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Respectfully, reliability requires a demonstration per WP:NEWSORG and WP:RS of editorial oversight, fact-checking and accuracy. The claims by Boynamedsue that simply because the UK gov't mandates some impartiality and accuracy demonstrates that LBC Radio News has a reputation for it, doesn't hold water. Please provide some evidence of this reputation, as I did not find any. The question is not simply whether it is WP:BIASED but whether it is offering alternative facts as suggested by the Guardian for contentious topics. I agree there is not much evidence of RS fact-checkers checking LBC, but I do not think it should be treated as generally reliable absent evidence thereof. The idea that they have a socialist commentator means they are reliable is quite flawed and silly. Andre🚐 09:36, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed reply. The Guardian piece describes that O'Brien loves the fact that LBC is editorialised like a newspaper, which shows that it describes this as resembling WP:NEWSORG. This probably falls under News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact, though my reading is that less reliable... doesn't mean generally unreliable. The piece frequently mentions its apparent bias, e.g., The current incarnation of LBC has a clear bias to the right, Is this butch, right-of-centre tone, though I would also point out that for offering alternative facts as suggested by the Guardian for contentious topics- most of the content from The Guardian piece is denoting to opinion talkshows, which I believe per WP:RSOPINION is already not usable. Of course, I'm not contending that the source is generally reliable on par with BBC, it definitely needs more caution and should not be used on itself for extraordinary claims. Many thanks for your replies, let's wait for more editors to comment here and thanks again! VickKiang (talk) 09:43, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes we will see what others have to say, I agree that the "less reliable" or "marginally reliable/unreliable," is what I was thinking of here, as a less-established outlet and one that may be largely opinionated and should be used with care as its reliability may be unclear or considerations may apply, and may additionally be biased. However, I am open to considering additional evidence, as I understand the Guardian piece is just one old piece and is limited. Thanks. Andre🚐 09:48, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply! Of course, those are just my subjective takes, this isn't a RfC but if so I'd imagine a no consensus outcome. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 09:50, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial Here is the report from the same site you mention for the Telegraph, which is a British newspaper of record and a pretty much unquestioned source here. It gives it as further right than LBC and also mixed. I think there are possibly a lot of American users here giving opinions on media they have not actually got any direct experience of. "I don't know" is a valid response when you don't actually know. --Boynamedsue (talk) 08:26, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Let's agree that MBFC is not usable per VickKiang below and established consensus. Andre🚐 09:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Given that The Telegraph has been documented in academic and other high-quality sources as canpaigning against transgender rights (including in its reporting), it may be your pretty much unquestioned evaluation that is in need of revision, rather than that of MBFC. And I am not an American user. Newimpartial (talk) 11:48, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It is not my evaluation that the Telegraph is reliable, it is a collective decision of the users of wikipedia. Political positions do not affect reliability. --Boynamedsue (talk) 13:10, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

First of all, when political positions affect the selection, presentation, and language used in reporting, they most definitely do affect reliability, as plenty of discussions here at RSN van attest. And more particularly, there is in fact no consensus at enwiki that The Telegraph is actually reliable for its reporting on transgender issues; you are assuming the thing that is to be proven. A broad consensus that the Telly is "generally reliable" doesn't make it reliable in specific areas where RS has noted that it is not just a BIASEDSOURCE but actually unreliable. Newimpartial (talk) 13:24, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'm surprised I hadn't heard of that. Out of interest, where was the community discussion that agreed that the Telegraph is not reliable for questions relating to transgender issues, rather than being biased? The list of perennial sources should be updated to reflect it. Boynamedsue (talk) 15:50, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

So far, the relevant discussuons are taking place at article Talk pages, where some of the HQ/academic sources have been presented in an ad hoc way. A number of editors have acknowleged that a noticeboard discussion will be required to amend the list entry; I would attribute my own procrastination on this to (1) my preference to treat The Times and The Telegraph together on this, so we don't see Times pickups replacing Telegraph coverage (as currently happens when either source runs with a Daily Mail story for example) and (2) my inclination to wait for the academic sourcing on this to strengthen further (as seems inevitable given recent developments in the UK). Newimpartial (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@NewimpartialAh, I would have been surprised that the Telegraph had been agreed to be unreliable on Transgender issues, I think that might be quite hard to do. In effect you would need to show a higher degree of factual inaccuracy in the T's output on this topic than across its general output. I introduced a similar conversation a few years ago on The Jewish Chronicle's coverage of Muslims and the British left, and despite it having had dozens of regulatory judgments against it for printing false information on these topics, it still only just scraped a "no consensus it is reliable". People are very reluctant to downgrade on single topic areas, especially controversial ones. --Boynamedsue (talk) 08:30, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

• No per Newimpartial. Andre🚐 21:32, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
• Weak Yes, Option 1-2 if this is a four options RfC. This is a decent news organisation per WP:NEWSORG that partners with the UK Sky News, which is RS. IMO the source is mostly opinion and apparently biased and opinionated (i.e., way worse compared to BBC), but that falls within WP:BIASED- Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. However, per Jayron32 it's definitely important that WP:DUE weight is considered depending on the context, and this source is not the best for extraodinary claims IMHO. However, I see insufficient evidence from WP:RS news organisations or fact-checkers such as Snopes or Politifact directly criticising coverage is false and misleading. Besides, Media Bias Fact Check (MBFC) is unconvincing, if we determine reliability based on MBFC ratings, we can assume that CNN and MSNBC, which are rated worse, are unreliable, and that the reliability of The Wall Street Journal is worse than the user-generated Rationalwiki- which is a good indication why MBFC regarded as generally unreliable per WP:RSP. VickKiang (talk) 08:55, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  Just a note that MBFC doesn't measure reliability by Wikipedia's criteria, so it's really only useful for determining where a source stands on the U.S. political spectrum. It's standards of reliability are based on factual truthfulness, which while a very good standard, Wikipedia goes a few steps further, because user generated sources are out here; MBFC has no stance against those. Different standards are because of different purposes, it doesn't mean that one is better than the other, MBFC is fine for what it is, but it is not unreliable. It is also not reliable, it's an opinion source, and as such, doesn't fit on Wikipedia's reliability scale at all. --Jayron32 11:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  There is consensus that Media Bias/Fact Check is generally unreliable, as it is self-published. Editors have questioned the methodology of the site's ratings. WP:MBFC Andre🚐 17:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  This comes up from time to time. Please note that the RSP listing apply to use in articles, not use in talk page discussions. A number of editors, myself included, will mention Adfonts Media's bias chart when discussing sources. MBFC is another source that can be used in such discussions. Editors can consider if a source is biased, etc based in part on the MBFC listings. What we can't do is add text to articles based on that listing. We can't add, "MBFC rates CNN as an X source". Springee (talk) 17:45, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  Thank four your replies, to me Jayron32 summarised it well. I understand that the RSP wording discourages MBFC to be included in mainspace articles as generally unreliable. On talk pages and noticeboards it is neither deprecated, disallowed, or explicitly discouraged (except for using it as the sole evidence in a RfC), but personally I take those with a grain of salt, as it's primarily one person's opinionated, poorly updated view and doesn't separate fact and opinion in the same way that WP editors do. Ad Fontes also is in the same vein but Allsides is marginally reliable. I browse some of these ratings as a good starting point when evaluating a source I don't know, it would usually not be far off but it is nowhere near decently accurate and it doesn't make sense to me that a common rating of "centre-right" and "mixed" would demonstrate unreliability. But IMHO MBFC is better than other (even worse) bias fact checkers, i.e., The Factual, which I critiqued in a separate RfC (it rates two marginally reliable sources with an almost perfect score), but to me Politifact and Snopes are way more accurate and established. VickKiang (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  If a source is unreliable, it can't be used to determine reliability. It's not categorically barred from being mentioned, but per RS, a source's reliability can only be determined by other RS. Andre🚐 20:56, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  Where is that in policy or guideline? Springee (talk) 21:55, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  Reliable scholarship – Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses. ... News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact. What I guess is not explicitly spelled out but is true from long-standing consensus practice is the idea that you won't determine reliability of an RS using a non-RS. But it's clearly implied that what determines how "established," or "well-regarded," or "reputable," a source is, must itself come from other RS. Andre🚐 22:52, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Actually, we come to consensus as to what is “established”, “well-regarded”, “reputable” via the messy process of discussion (and argument) - sharing our own opinions as to the source’s reputation… it’s a purely internal determination. Blueboar (talk) 23:12, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  The rules of the evidence for weighing that determination are that they must be reliable. Unreliable sources are not usable. And "reputable", "established", and "well-regarded" is based on what reliable sources say, in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. Andre🚐 02:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  What “rules of evidence” are you referring to? We don’t have any. We simply have consensus. If a consensus of WP editors think X is reliable (or unreliable), it does not matter what people outside WP think. Sure, we can note what people outside WP think - but we are free to either accept or reject what they say, as we want. We are not bound by outside opinions. Blueboar (talk) 03:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'm referring to reliable sources policy. Unreliable sources by long-standing consensus, such as WP:MBFC, are not for use here. There's even text in the warning when you open an RFC that tells you not to cite MBFC. Andre🚐 03:37, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Actually it says, "Do not base your RfC solely on Media Bias/Fact Check" . It would be interesting to know who put that in and why they wouldn't say the same for other rating sites. The RSP listing for Wikipedia:ADFONTES is almost identical. I'm not sure why ALLSIDES was treated slightly better. Basically we treat all rating sites the same way. We consider them self published and we say don't use them as references in articles. We don't say don't use them in discussions related to reliability. Yes, you aren't the only editor who makes that claim but that isn't consensus. Springee (talk) 04:43, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes. I would tend to agree with VickKiang that this is probably in the Option 1-2 range in that it doesn't appear to be rock solid source but it also doesn't appear to have any red flags that would tell us we can't treat it as reliable or with no weight. Springee (talk) 17:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, mainstream site, surprised to see this being an issue. --Andreas JN466 08:32, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, per Spy-cicle. - LilySophie (talk) 20:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
• No', separate from the discussion about the one specific article that started that, I find the sources about them being right-wing talk radio convincing. I don't see anyone who's offered actual proof that they are reliable, like some kind of editorial or corrections policy. The two combined means I have to vote no here (on the ordinary 4-level RFC, probably 2-3). Loki (talk) 19:15, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Their website gives a clear editorial hierarchy states they are regulated by ofcom, and links to their site. Their news output must comply this code. This is considerably stricter than the codes British newspapers, such as the Guardian, Telegraph and Times follow. Broadcasters in the UK are accepted as more neutral and reliable than newspapers, due to their strict regulation. It think that a lot of the comments here fail to understand the British media landscape.Boynamedsue (talk) 07:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Websites of "right-wing talk radio[s]" are not automatically unreliable. Biased != unreliable. 2A01:4B00:9D42:6E00:4CED:61B9:CCE0:425A (talk) 01:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes it's a reliable source, not the best one but it's accurately reporting the details. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 23:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes it's a reliable source - we've been given no reason to think otherwise. On a more general note, I think discussions and RfCs on the reliability of a source should be carefully prepared. The proponents should give examples of false or questionable reports from the source, and should also link to sources that prove that the reports published by the source are false or questionable; otherwise it all relies on a kind of moral intuition on the part of the editors as to where the Truth lies. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

  Gitz what makes you think the proponent (the person who created this section) wants to give you any reason to think otherwise? They've been participating at an edit war where they restored text citing LBC. They just want your YES vote, which I see you have given here and at the article. Well done. -- Colin°^Talk 18:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

  It may be that the four RfCs are a case of WP:GAME and WP:FORUMSHOP, and if so, admins should examine them more closely, given the amount of time they have taken up. But I see that some editors have taken the four RfCs seriously and argued that articles they don't like shouldn't be used because the sources are biased and unreliable regarding to the rights of trans people. To accept this argument one needs convincing evidence: that's all I said here. As for Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People - the origin of all this - I believe this edit was well-sourced and balanced [19]. While I understand that others may disagree, the fact that they disagree because the edit is unsourced and The Times, The Telegraph and The Economist are biased sources is probably what has caused unnecessary animosity and questionable RfCs. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

• When there is a dispute at the article level over whether a source is reliable or not, filing an RFC on this Noticeboard (to see what the broader community thinks) is very appropriate. That is what this noticeboard, and reliability RFC’s are FOR. It does not matter whether the editor who initiates the RFC is “for” or “against” the source. What matters is what the broader community (especially those not involved in the initial dispute) thinks. Blueboar (talk) 03:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  User:Blueboar, the mischaracterisation of this dispute as one about "whether a source is reliable or not" is the entire problem here. The edit war had text removed repeatedly due to being WP:UNDUE:

  • one local campaign group's statent given undue weight by placement here and a whole paragraph of exposition, I think
  • Very much undue in a global sense, one fringe campaign group in Scotland's commentary aren't due here. They might be due at their article, but also WP:COATRACK applies there
  • Sentence is WP:UNDUE. Criticism of this chapter seems to come only from trans hostile media sources, most of which we classify as unreliable (that last bit is clarified on talk as referring to the root-source of the criticism cited by the newspapers, which is For Women Scotland, Genspect, SEGM).

  It is to the advantage of those wanting to insert this grossly WP:UNDUE non-story to make it all about whether the sources meet WP:V and for them all to ignore WP:VNOT and WP:DUE. Because to consider DUE, we might have to wonder why an international medical guideline article should include the views of a few Scottish anti-trans feminists written only by the Scotland correspondents of a few UK newspapers. Why, for example, no newspapers in the US, and no criticism in the medical journals. As an example of WP:GAME, I have to take my hat off, because it has been entirely successful in getting everyone to ignore WP:VNOT and WP:DUE and to get even people who have never heard of LBC to vote yes on the basis that the poster didn't supply any reasons to vote no. -- Colin°^Talk 08:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry, perhaps we're speaking of two different things and I might have misunderstood something, in which case I'd be happy to change my views and strike through my comments. I agree with you that this was undue [20] but arguably this was both relevant and balanced [21] and yet it was reverted because Criticism of this chapter seems to come only from trans hostile media sources, most of which we classify as unreliable[22] and because The Economist isn't really known for its expertise on medical issues, is it? [23]. Then the RfC was opened on the question "Should the article mention the controversy over the Eunuch chapter in SOC8?". Sources were The Economist, The Times, The Telegraph and also Neue Zürcher Zeitung reporting (in German) that According to the World Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), it is both necessary and desirable to include "eunuchs" as a new category under the gender diversity umbrella. Editors who !voted "No" argued that The Times, The Telegraph and The Economist - all decidedly BIASEDSOURCES and that British newspapers in general are less reliable on trans issues. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  Gitz, the discussion did vere off in the direction of discussing reliability, partly by own-goals and partly because they were led in that direction. But that isn't how it started, which was very much a DUE matter, and I blame the creation of an RFC there and here, because both times the format is effectively a voting poll to answer a question posed by one side in the edit war. We know such polls are not a good way to examine an issue in seriousness.

  There is a frustration with the everyday meaning of the word "reliable" and the very narrow meaning used at WP:RS that needs "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". We often use that word as saying you can rely on them to give a balanced report and not give undue weight to fringe voices. For example, the BBC has improved its handling of science controversies and is now fairly reliable on that matter. When you are discussing DUE and BIASEDSOURCES, people are asking whether we can rely on the judgement of the Times/Telegraph/Economist (or specific journalists) wrt trans issues, that because they cover a story we are then compelled to also. And also in case here, because they feel the need to cover the story wrt feminists protesting about Scottish Gender ID reform, that this compels us to cover the story wrt an international medical consensus guideline. That something from WP:RS may be DUE in one place (an article about the feminists campaing groups) but not in another (a medical guideline).

  Whether one version of the edit warred text was DUE and the other wasn't isn't a matter to discuss here, and such nuance is lost by the question posed at the RFC. The third link you give reverts different text to the second link, and made an importantly misleading claim. You can ping me elsewhere if you want to discuss that further.

  I think we perhaps lack a forum to discuss DUE. And we also perhaps lack guidance specifically on handling DUE from biased sources that maintain a modest reputation for fact checking an accuracy. You know the quote "The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit." How does Wikipedia maintain a neutral point of view, if some newspapers are happy to flood the zone with shit on the issue of transgender treatments and rights? -- Colin°^Talk 11:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The "Russian Constitution"

There is agreement at Talk:Republics of Russia that the Russian Constitution is a primary source.

Do editors here consider the Russian Constitution (Конституция Российской Федерации) (relevant section apparently here) and the Russian government's website, reliable sources for the notion that territories in Ukraine are now constituent territories of Russia? This is for the article Republics of Russia. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:09, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Of course not. All the source establishes is that the Russian government claims that the territories in Ukraine now belong to Russia. The fact that Putin's government makes that claim can be established through secondary sources, such as major newspapers, so there's no need to cite a primary source. NightHeron (talk) 10:18, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this is a reliability issue. The constitution is a reliable source for the statement "Russia considers X its territory." We should also say who controls the said territory and that it's considered Ukraine by nearly all other countries. Alaexis_¿question? 10:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Normally I would agree with you Alaexis, as I agree with NightHeron that it essentially goes without saying. But another editor has claimed at talk (in the 2nd para of this long post), that there's no other meaningful standard for determining the number of territories and We could use these two primary sources on the federal subjects of the Federation. I agree with your view that any statement based on these sources would need to be framed as "the Russian government considers...", but am seeking more eyes on this. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

“Meaningful standard for determining the number of territories”: this is not a physical phenomenon that has an absolute measure. Number of legal territories within Russia’s UN-recognized borders? Number of illegally claimed territories including in Ukrainian territory that’s partly occupied and contested during the war? Different things. —Michael Z. 21:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

• Government websites containing codified law are reliable for the position of that government, so I see no problem with citing these webpages for their claim. The issue here is not reliability but how (and if) to add DPR and LPR to the list of these republics without equating these republics to those internationally recognised as part of Russia (Dagestan, Buryatia etc.). You should make it clear through secondary, reliable and independent sources that not all of the claimed territories are controlled by the Russians and that (almost) no one says these territories are Russian. I believe a good way forward is to have two tables, one for republics that are legitimately part of Russia and others that are not but are administered by the country. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 11:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  I also agree with this view, and that solution is what I advocate in the RFC on that subject. This specific discussion is about the lead of the article (see talk link in my previous comment). Cambial — foliar❧ 11:43, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• It'll be as reliable as any particular constitution, which are primary sources. On this particular issue, the last I read up on the matter the constitution mostly just listed the entities, and did not define much about the supposed new territories (eg. their borders), so the constitution is likely insufficient for even the Russian stance. I think Alaexis is right that this is not really a reliability question but a question of effective framing. There's not really an exact parallel given there is an active war. Looking around, for uncontrolled areas Territories of the United States lists them and Provinces of China includes them in a different colour, and for controlled territories Regions of France doesn't distinguish Mayotte and Prefectures and provinces of Morocco puts the Western Sahara territories into their own subsection. That said, there is an active war, so it seems inappropriate to note anything as strictly controlled, and the page remains subject to changing current events. CMD (talk) 12:34, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

They are RS for Russia's claim, not for that claim being true (or even what they claim actually constitutes, geographically). Slatersteven (talk) 13:03, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Provinces of China is a good reference point. As is well known, China (officially the People's Republic of China) claims sovereignty over Taiwan, which it considers as one of its provinces, the Taiwan Province. However, China has never administered this territory, which is controlled by an autonomous and de facto separate country, Taiwan (officially the Republic of China). China has much less control over Taiwan than Russia has over Crimea and the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. However, in the article on Provinces of China 34 provinces are listed, so Taiwan Province is included in both the lead, body and table of the article, while its disputed status is duly mentioned and made clear to readers. Why can't we do the same with Republics of Russia? The number and name of Russian republics is determined by Russian public law, just as the number and name of Chinese provinces is determined by Chinese law. We can use the recently amended Russian constitution as a primary source, the Government website as another primary source, and various news reports as secondary sources, and report that today Russia consists of 24 Republics, three of which are not internationally recognised as legitimate authorities over the Ukrainian regions they claim as their territory. This has been my position since the very beginning of the long discussions on that article [24], and it has found unyielding, quite aggressive opposition from Cambial Yellowing and others, who for some reason think that the article Republics of Russia is not about a set of legal constructs, but about actual geographical areas and their inhabitants and governance [25]. Please express your views in the RfC now open on that talk page. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:57, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  It is true that my and other's opposition to your expressed desire to ignore our obligation to present a neutral point of view – by presenting Russian government claims in wikivoice – has been unyielding. That’s because the WP:NPOV policy is non-negotiable. It’s entirely correct that editors not yield to your repetition ad nauseam of the same few transparently flawed and unpersuasive arguments. Cambial — foliar❧ 22:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  Since my arguments have so far been shared by at least six other editors, some of whom are far more experienced than you, there's no point in being so emphatic - transparently flawed and unpersuasive arguments - and repeating "I am Policy, I am Policy, I don't negotiate with anybody". It may well be that Republics of Russia is not about geographical areas and their inhabitants. I suggest you read the article: it's not that long and you might find it interesting. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  Your evident need to resort to the most absurd of straw men (“I am policy” etc. - who do you think you are fooling?) and mere invention (no-one has shared your argument that “Russian public law establishes fact”) to try to defend your position speaks to its lack of foundation. You’ll recall that there is no hierarchy of editors here. It’s not going to turn out that the article Republics of Russia is about something other than what reliable sources say it is. I suggest you refer to reliable sources on the topic, and the policies guiding their use here. You’ll find them instructive. Cambial — foliar❧ 23:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  As for sources, you argue that we should determine the number of Russian Republics by recourse to sources other than the Russian constitution, but so far you haven't been able to find anything else. The only secondary source on the number of Republics after the October 2022 annexations is an op-ed published in the Kyiv Post - so definitely not Russian propaganda - and it says... 24 Republics [26]! Ooh la la, the same number that the Russian constitution states, what a coincidence. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:41, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  Is there genuinely part of your mind that believes that repetition of the same facile argument will be more effective or persuasive a second or third time? You already made this claim here. As was pointed out to you then, we have an academic reference work used as a source in the article. No reliable sources have indicated that Luhansk and Donetsk are now republics of Russia, and a passing mention in one opinion piece is not a reliable source. Cambial — foliar❧ 23:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  This is not wikivoice. But the question is whether "according to its constitution" is due weight there. Mellk (talk) 00:01, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  By there do you mean in the lead? The Russian government view is given in the lead as I added it. There’s been no discernible dispute about their attributed view constituting due weight in that paragraph. Cambial — foliar❧ 00:38, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  I meant in the first sentence (what it was like previously) or even the opening paragraph. Mellk (talk) 00:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  "According to its constitution" might be UNDUE if there were other significant viewpoints on the number of Russian Republics. So far, however, no one has ever found a source showing that there's disagreement that the number of Russian subdivisions is determined by the Russian constitution. AFIK there's not a debate on this, with the Russians claiming that there are 24 Russian republics and the Ukrainians 21. Neither the Ukrainians nor the international community are interested in the number of Russian administrative subdivisions - they are interested in territory and in sovereignty over the territory. I agreed with dropping "According to its constitution" not because it was UNDUE, but (in the absence of other viewpoints on the subject) because it was redundant and irrelevant. Gitz (talk)

  It's a waste of time typing out a different response to your repetition of the same argument and the same false premise on which it depends. Thus: You already made this claim here. As was pointed out to you then, we have an academic reference work used as a source in the article [it says 22]. No reliable sources have indicated that Luhansk and Donetsk are now republics of Russia. Cambial — foliar❧ 09:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  The academic reference used as a source in the article (this [27]) was written before the annexations of DPR and LPR. It mentions 22 Republics, thus acknowledging that the amendment to the Russian constitution following the annexation of Crimea succeeded in creating a new Russian republic, the Republic of Crimea. Analogously, the 2022 amendment created two new federal subjects, the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics. According to WP:AGEMATTERS, the pre-2022 academic reference is no longer reliable on the number of Russian republics, which is now 24 instead of 22, as reported by the Russian constitution, government websites, and the Kyiv Post op-ed. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  as reported by the Russian constitution, government websites, and the Kyiv Post op-ed: none of which are reliable sources. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:30, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  They are not unreliable for anything. See for example WP:PRIMARY. Unless you meant unreliable for wikivoice? Mellk (talk) 16:50, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Every Republic of Russia, for example Tatarstan, is NOT just a legal construct, but a specified territory, people who live there, etc. (as our page say, "The Republics of Russia are 22 territories in the Russian Federation". Territories.) Now, let's consider someone claiming that the entire Donetsk Oblast or Kherson Oblast of Ukraine "is a territory of Russia", as Peskov does or as framed in the question at the top of this thread. That is obviously a false statement because at least a part of the territory is controlled by Ukraine, was never controlled by Russia and an internationally recognized territory of Ukraine. Using Russian constitution to support such false statement means promoting misinformation. As frequently on RSNB, this is not a matter of a source, but of a statement it supports. By the same reasoning, Taiwan is not a legal construct, but an actually existing territory with people. Is it in fact a territory of mainland People's Republic of China? No, of course not. Therefore, I believe that placing it to the map on page Provinces of China was misleading, even though it is marked by a different color. It should not be there. My very best wishes (talk) 14:25, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

P.S. For the same reason Kuril Islands are not shown and not described as a part of Japan in Administrative divisions of Japan, and so on. My very best wishes (talk) 14:39, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're mistaken. From Japan's point of view, the Kuril Islands are part of the Nemuro Subprefecture of Hokkaido Prefecture. Both in the Nemuro Subprefecture article and the Hokkaido Prefecture article, the Kuril Islands are mentioned as territory claimed by Japan, and the maps show Hokkaido within Japan, including the disputed Kuril islands and Nemuro Subprefecture is blue. The claimed islands and districts (Northern Territories) are grey. The Kuril Islands are not described as a self-standing administrative division of Japan in Administrative divisions of Japan simply because they are not a self-standing administrative division (a prefecture): they are part of a subprefecture, and "Administrative divisions of Japan" lists only prefectures. The example you provided strengthens my argument. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:55, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

There is a big difference between saying "this territory is claimed by state X" (Japan in this example) and saying "this territory is [in fact] a part of state X". The phrasing at the top of this thread implies the latter, just as phrasing on the page itself ("The republics of Russia are [N] territories in the Russian Federation..."). Consider our page just bluntly saying "the state of Japan includes 4 Kuril Islands". My very best wishes (talk) 17:03, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

It should be noted that Japan claims only four of the islands, not the entire thing. The relevant page is Subprefectures of Hokkaido. Mellk (talk) 17:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Not reliable for a claim like "Kherson is part of Russia". But reliable for a claim like "According to Russia, Kherson is part of Russia." Similarly for Donetsk, Lugansk, Crimea, and Zaporizhzhia. I think this summarizes the opinions of most users who have commented on this thread. Adoring nanny (talk) 14:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment Given how contentious this appears to be, I think a formal close of this thread, with a summary of the discussion, would be a good idea. Adoring nanny (talk) 14:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  I agree entirely with Adoring nanny's comment and I too would support a formal closure of the discussion. But please note the following:

  1. On Republics of Russia no one has ever argued that Kherson, Donetsk, Lugansk, Crimea, and Zaporizhzhia are part of Russia. I personally believe that they are part of Ukraine: the Russian annexation was illegal under current international law. The OP of this discussion is a prime example of a straw man: no one has ever claimed that the Russian constitution is a reliable source for the notion that territories in Ukraine are now constituent territories of Russia.
  2. What we've been discussing is whether the Russian constitution is a reliable source for the notion that the Republic of Crimea, the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic are Russian Republics (in which case, Republics of Russia should list 24 republics). This is the controversial issue upon which a formal closure would be highly desirable. I don't know why some editors do not understand the distinction between question 1 and question 2. Anyway, question 1 is a nonexistent and made-up question, while question 2 is apparently very contentious. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:23, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

"no one has ever argued that Kherson, Donetsk, Lugansk, Crimea, and Zaporizhzhia are part of Russia". Oh no, that is exactly what our page says ("The republics of Russia are [N] territories in the Russian Federation..."), and that is exactly what this thread and the ANI complaint was about. My very best wishes (talk) 17:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

One of the meanings of the word territory is "a large area that has some local government but fewer rights than a province or a state" [28], "an organized division of a country that is not yet admitted to the full rights of a state" [29]. This meaning is particulary evident when the word is used as plural ("territories"). This meaning would be even more evident if Cambial had not modified the opening sentence of the article: "According to its constitution, the republics of Russia are 24 territories in the Russian Federation that each constitute a federal subject". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 18:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• What you, Gitz, describe as a "controversial issue" or "contentious" is only contentious insofar as one editor, Gitz, has sought to aggressively but unpersuasively argue at length that the Russian constitution is a reliable source for the notion that the Republic of Crimea, the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic are Russian Republics.

  No other editors agree with this. Given that context, it’s evidently not so much a contentious issue as one editor making a contentious argument in the face of unanimous opposition. This is sometimes described on Wikipedia as WP:IDHT. Cambial — foliar❧ 17:05, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

it’s sealioning. He will continue to do this as long as somebody answers him. No, there is no reason why the Russian Constitution would be a reliable source for this claim, which he says is obvious on its face. Yet he cannot produce a secondary source, shrug. We just went all through this when he took it to ANI. It is a silly contention, and it isn’t uncivil to say so. BTW: I am not sure what the history is for the provinces of China, but neither the provinces of Ireland nor the provinces of France correspond to the current administrative jurisdictions, so the parallel may be flawed. 21:06, 18 November 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elinruby (talk • contribs)

A quick skim of Provinces of China indicates that Taiwan was a province in the Qing dynasty. Which would explain its inclusion. Note however the big disclaimer in the lede about this point.Elinruby (talk) 21:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

It had never occurred to me before that province of Taiwan might have been listed as a province of the People's Republic of China because it was a Chinese province during the Qing dynasty. While the hypothesis fascinating, I beg to disagree.

The discussion may also benefit from a comparison with regions of Morocco (which includes three regions in the disputed territory of Western Sahara) and with administrative units of Pakistan (which includes the disputed Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan). As these examples show, there's no contradiction between listing the DPR and the LPR as republics of Russia, and listing Donetsk and Luhansk as oblasts of Ukraine.

As far as sources are concerned, I believe that we can use the Russian constitution (primary source) + Russian government websites + dozens of independent and reliable news reports on the Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts to conclude that today Russia is divided into 22+2=republics. If I'm wrong, we'll have to wait a few months or weeks for academic secondary sources stating what everybody already knows. But note that if I'm wrong we should modify also the following articles:

• Donetsk People's Republic: After the annexation, Russia views the DPR and LPR as Russian republics
• Luhansk People's Republic: After the annexation, Russia views the DPR and LPR as Russian republics
• Flags of the federal subjects of Russia: 24 Republics
• Political divisions of Russia: 24 Republics
• Federation Council (Russia): Each of the 89[2] federal subjects of Russia – consisting of 24 republics
• Krais of Russia: The country is divided into 89 federal subjects, of which nine are krais (thus including the DPR, the LPR, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia)
• Federal subjects of Russia: the list "Federal Subjects of the Russian Federation" includes the disputed territories

Since I haven't included any of these contents, Cambial's claim that No other editors agree is wrong (in fact, one only has to read the discussions on the talk page to see that it is wrong): reporting "24 republics" is the reasonable, commonsensical thing to do, and it has nothing to do with the issues of the Russia–Ukraine border. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:58, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I am sure you do disagree. Since you apparently have no other arguments to make, apart from an appeal to authority based on Wikipedia articles, excuse me if I am not convinced by your wall of text. It is quite possible that those articles also suffer from the problem you want to create in this one. Secondary sources, dude. Secondary sources. Elinruby (talk) 18:53, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

This source (official website of the Russian Federation Council) is sufficient, as there are no sources (published after 30 September 2022) that state the contrary. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:15, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

No it is not, as multiple people have tried to tell you. Multiple times. Putin is not a reliable source as to the extent of his authority. That will not change no matter how many walls of text you post. The OP is correct, and you are not. Someone should close this thread. Elinruby (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Gitz said: "we'll have to wait a few months". Yes, I think that's a good idea because they will probably have to change their "Constitution" in a few months when these territories will be taken back by Ukrainian forces, and when claiming this nonsense will no longer serve Russian propaganda. My very best wishes (talk) 03:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

• Use secondary sources: there's no need to conduct original research based on the Russian constitution; for any substantive position taken by the Russian government, reliable secondary sources will likely exist. If secondary sources do not cover such positions, then this content would likely be undue for the articles. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

RfC: The Economist

What best describes The Economist's news coverage of transgender topics?

• Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

gnu57 13:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Addition:

• Option X: This RfC is not presented in such a manner as to encourage informed discussion, and should be closed procedurally.

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Further down, you say that the RFC question should contain arguments against option 1 (Any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Economist on trans topics). That would violate WP:RFCNEUTRAL and WP:RFCST, and is in no way a reason to close anything procedurally. The RFC was indeed started somewhat prematurely, but it'll stay open for weeks/a month or so, giving both sides plenty of time to offer new evience. DFlhb (talk) 19:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)

Discussion (The Economist)

Instances where the factual accuracy of covetage of transgender issues in reporting by The Economist include this discusion. Newimpartial (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

This seems to be trying to get a simple answer to a complex question. Reliability on a single issue (such as transgender) is not necessarily determined at editorial level, and could be down to the columnist. Transgender issues vary over social, legal and medical matters. We already have WP:MEDRS which does not regard the popular press as reliable sources for biomedical information, so to the extent that a transgender issue is biomedical, it shouldn't be used. The anonymity of articles in the Economist is a problem wrt judging the reliability of the author. -- Colin°^Talk 14:14, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Bias is not an issue. Slatersteven (talk) 15:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. The Economist is well-regarded as a reliable source. No evidence has been provided that it is not.Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. This is clear. I mean no disrespect to OP but it would be great to close at least two of these RfCs that are bound to be uncontested and are taking up quite a bit of space for the same discussion to happen three times. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:21, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Obvious and established. Andre🚐 19:33, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2 - as I noted for the two broadsheets listed below, the OP appears to have presented these filings devoid of context or Talk notifications in order to achieve quick SNOW endorsements that they can use as a cudgel in Talk discussions. Editors familiar with the coverage of trans topics by these three outlets are aware of the ways all three have placed their news coverage in the service of political campaigns to limit or reverse trans rights. This is most certainly a case where additional considerations apply. Newimpartial (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Various editors in this discussion have apparently !voted on the RfC question without examining any evidence beyond their own perceptions of The Economist as a reliable source in general [31] [32] [33]

  This in spite of documentation that The Economist as having published "anti-trans screeds",[34] and has mischaracterised their own articles to discuss the "sterilisation" of trans people[35] on social media.

  A "gender critical" editorial line was pursued under the leadership of Helen Joyce, as has been documented in (RSN-green source) the Daily Dot in 2019. Outside of her work at The Economist, Joyce continued to pursue this approach in her controversial[36] book Trans, written while working for The Economist,[37], and that she now follows (while on leave from The Economist) as director of advocacy for sex matters, a group campaigning to protect the expression of "gender-critical" views.[38]

  Some editors have argued that bias is not an issue in source reliability.[39] However, the main point made in the policy section on WP:BIASEDSOURCES is that Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. I am not in any way disputing that The Economist is a reliable source for its own "gender critical" opinions on contemporary issues, but the concerns I am raising have nothing to do with the reliability of the magazine's coverage arise when it is elaborating its own "viewpoint" - they are all about claims made in avowedly factual news coverage. The assertion that because The Economist is generally respected for its factual coverage in other areas, that therefore this also applies to its coverage of transgender topics, seems to assume the conclusion that this filing is intended to assess.

  Some editors have argued that the issues identified by RS about coverage of transgender issues are confined to editorials, headlines, or statements attributed to sources. I have therefore come up with four examples to discuss, of claims that could be made (or have actually been proposed in WP article text; two of each). These claims refer only to statements made recently (2021-22) in the editorial voice of The Economist in news articles (only).

  The purpose of these examples is to evaluate whether or not The Economist is reliable for the statements in question and also whether or not it may be expressing the view of a WP:FRINGE minority that is not typically WP:DUE for inclusion in WP articles. If one or both of these problems exist in these instances, I think it should be clear that a policy-based close of this filing cannot conclude that the magazine is generally reliable for its coverage of transgender topics (as the filer, who has advocate its use in one of the cases I am using as an example, had presumably hoped[40]), but rather that additional considerations apply.

Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that trans ideology Is distorting US medical education?

Is The Economist a reliable source for the factual claim that trans ideology is distorting US medical education? The magazine has most recently made this assertion here (trans ideology is distorting the education of America's doctors, as a headline, based on It suggested that gender-identity ideology, which holds that transgender women are women and trans men are men, had influenced some of those who were training her to be a doctor and How has trans ideology made its way into medical schools? unattributed in article text). By contrast, the consensus of experts is that "trans ideology/gender ideology" does not really exist, and is a conspiracy theory or trope of anti-trans rhetoric.[41] [42] [43] [44] [45] Meanwhile, quality sources about medical education in the US do not document any controversy about transgender topics, much less any incursion of "trans ideology" [46] [47] [48] While I was unable to locate other potentially reliable sources supporting The Economist's claims about encroachment by "trans ideology", the statement is supported by other voices such as Barri Weiss's substack WP:FRINGE anti-trans lobbyists GENSPECT [49], evangelical group focus on the family and Catholic publication America Magazine.[50]] So is The Economist a reliable source for the assertion that "gender ideology"/"trans ideology" actually exists in the US? I would say, no. Is The Economist a reliable source doe the assertion that "trans ideology" is distorting US medical education? I would also say, no. And I don't see the merit in a WP:FALSEBALANCE presentation that would say, e.g., "The Economist, Genspect and America Magazine state that gender ideology is distorting US medical education, but other experts disagree". This seems pretty clearly to represent a WP:FRINGE claim. It seems clear also that coverage in The Economist is unlikely to make this issue WP:DUE for inclusion in article text.

Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that the Biden administration has embraced gender ideology?

Is The Economist a reliable source for the factual claim that the Biden administration has embraced gender ideology? The magazine made this assertion in 2021 (Lawmakers in these mostly conservative states are pushing back against the Biden administration’s embrace of gender ideology, again unattributed in article text). This full-throated endorsement that the Biden administration has embraced "gender ideology" flies against the face of the established view - documented in my first example - that "gender ideology" is a conspiracy theory or rhetorical tropes. Other sources described the Biden administration initiatives as guidance seeking to protect transgender students or rules to prohibit discrimination based on gender identity. Again, while I was unable to identify potentially reliable sources to corroborate the Binden administration's embrace of "gender ideology", related claims were supported by The Heritage Foundation The Christian Institute, Catholic World Report and the (RSN-yellow labelled) Washington Times. Do is The Economist a reliable source that the Biden administration has "embraced gender ideology"? I would say, no. Would it be appropriate to say that "The Biden administration has been described as endorsing gender ideology, according to The Economist, the Washington Times, Catholic World Report and The Heritage Foundation, but other sources do not agree"? I don't think so - again, this seems like a WP:FRINGE characterization, not supported by reliable sources and not WP:DUE for WP article space.

Is The Economist reliable for its coverage of the launch of the 8th edition WPATH guidelines?

This is the actual proposed use of The Economist[51] that resulted in this filing. [52] The Economist article in question states that the public launch of the latest standards of care by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (wpath) on September 15th was a mess and that WPATH refers to a website which hosts stories about castrating boys against their will. Now I have no idea whether the latter statement is true or not, but it is not backed up by any of the other sources (e.g., The Times, The Telegraph) discussing the site in question. The former statement that "the public launch ... was a mess" may also be supportable, but given that - apart from a brief comment from the publisher - The Economist only included reactions by gender-crtitical figures associated with WP:FRINGE groups Genspect and the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine, the reliability of this assessment seems questionable at best. The proposed use of The Economist here was, along with The Telegraph and The Times, to insist that space within the article on WPATH's standards over time include this 2022 controversy in somewhat lurid terms. (Note that the proposed arricle text is not supported in detail by The Economist's article text, but I digress.)

Is The Economist reliable for its characterisation of a third party interview of Marci Bowers by Abigail Shrier?

This is the proposed use of The Economist that I linked in the "Context" section, above. The interview in question was carried out by minor "gender critical" celebrity Abigail Shrier and was initially published on Barry Weiss's substack [53] before the article in The Economist here. Although the characterization of her remarks was subsequently disputed by the interview subject here, editors have nevertheless argued that The Economist's characterisation reliable for its characterisation of the interview should be considered reliable[54] and that it is WP:DUE for inclusion based on The Economist and a Medscape news bulletin? And does The Economist 's publication of the article make it WP:DUE for inclusion in the WP article for which it is proposed - given that no other WP:RS have picked up the story? (The dubious exceptions being the news feeds of WebMD and Medscape, and RSN Yellow-labelled National Review). While ignored by high-quality sources, the interview was picked up by WP:FRINGE contributor Genspect and an RSOPINION piece from Canada.

• Given these four examples, it seems clear to me that the policy-compliant conckusion is that additional considerations apply, given the repeated statements The Economist makes in its news coverage, in its own voice, that align with a tiny minority of FRINGE sources rather than the overwhelming WP:WEIGHT of mainstream and high-quality sources. A decision that The Economist is "generally reliable on transgender topics" would only be a red flag to POV editors to introduce poorly-sourced and UNDUE content to articles in the GENSEX WP:ACDS topic area, and to encourage WP:FALSEBALANCE article text in which the talking points The Economist shares only with FRINGE publications would be presented as an alternative reality alongside the consensus reality documented in the bulk of reliable sources. Newimpartial (talk) 22:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC) corrections by Newimpartial (talk) 02:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Your first two examples are based on The Economist's use of the term "trans ideology/gender ideology". You state that there is a consensus that this does not exist. If it doesn't exist, there can be no reliable source saying that it influences anything. However, this is a challenge to the use of a term. Instead of/in addition to challenging the term, we should look at the things that it is said to consist of... according to the second Economist article, this is: "the Biden administration’s embrace of gender ideology, which holds that trans people should be recognised as the sex with which they identify". So, the question changes from "Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that the Biden administration has embraced gender ideology?" to "Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that the Biden administration has embraced the idea that trans people should be recognised as the sex with which they identify?" EddieHugh (talk) 23:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, I agree that The Economist could be used as a source for the latter statement, along with other more mainstream sources. But that wasn't my question. One characteristic of editors sympathetic to "gender-critical" positions in the GENSEX area is their insistence that the language of WP:BIASEDSOURCES be retained in WP article text. As noted in my response to VickKiang below, one of the additional considerations I would like to see noted in the close is that the fact that The Economist often includes highly partisan language in its coverage of trans issues, language which should not be regarded as factual or presented in wikivoice. Your paraphrase here sidesteps what I regard as a critical concern. Newimpartial (talk) 01:01, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

It's not my paraphrase; it's quoting The Economist. I generally oppose labelling when we can describe, but it's very popular here... I wouldn't advocate using "gender ideology" merely because a reliable source uses it, but I also wouldn't oppose using a description of (part of) the same thing from a reliable source. For me, the fact that a source uses both a label and a description doesn't make it unreliable. As editors, we can use judgement in deciding what from a reliable source is best to use, for the benefit of readers. EddieHugh (talk) 18:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Typically in the GENSEX area editors insist that the "facts", the "labels", the "opinions" and the salience of inclusions are all based on the sources used. What I am saying is that in cases where The Economist includes facts, labels and opinions that may correspond to those used in FRINGE sources but are not found in other reliable sources, that these should not be regarded as salient (and in the case of labels, that they should not be employed in wikivoice). Newimpartial (talk) 18:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The third one: they quote people from the two groups that you mention, and the head of the drafting committee: "This is a professional organisation of people who all adhere to the Hippocratic oath." The article might not be 100% balanced, but what is factually inaccurate? The proposed use that you link to is: "Should the article mention the controversy over the Eunuch chapter in SOC8?" Exactly what that proposes isn't clear to me. The article contains only two sentences that are specifically about a eunuch chapter... is anything in them incorrect? They describe it as "the most controversial chapter", which looks like opinion, so would have to be attributed if used; the quotation can be checked; leaving the website claim. EddieHugh (talk) 23:46, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

As I specified, The Economist specifies in its own voice, as an unattributed, factual statement, that the public launch ... was a mess. With a publication that is regarded as generally reliable for transgender topics, we would take this judgement at face value. Can we, for The Economist, particularly given their selection of voices used to support this characterisation? With a generally reliable source, we would assume that the content of those sentences about the Eunuch chapter (the topic the WPATH page editors were aiming to include) is factually accurate, but is it safe to assume that concerning statements of fact that are not made in other WP:RS? The assumption that The Economist must be reliable on these topics because it is reliable on non-trans related topics seems to me to be circular and unconvincing, given the well-established biases of the source. Newimpartial (talk) 01:09, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Is describing something as "a mess" a statement about facts? It's an opinion, which is immediately followed by an explanation: "they originally included a list of minimum ages for treatments—14 for cross-sex hormones, 15 for removal of breasts, 17 for testicles. Hours later, a 'correction' eliminated the age limits. The head of the drafting committee, Eli Coleman, said the publisher went ahead 'without approval' before final changes were made." That's a statement about facts. Is it inaccurate? EddieHugh (talk) 18:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

As I noted above, typically in the GENSEX area editors insist that the "facts", the "labels", the "opinions" and the salience of inclusions are all based on the sources used. What I am saying is that in cases where The Economist includes facts, labels and opinions that may correspond to those used in FRINGE sources but not in other reliable sources, that these should not be regarded as salient (and in the case of labels, that they should not be employed in wikivoice). This is the nature of the "additional considerations" I would like to see noted in the close. Newimpartial (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps we should instead reconsider if the other sources are actually FRINGE? Sorry, this really does come across as trying to argue to a conclusion that is preferred vs following the sources. Springee (talk) 21:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

That's a good idea. See below. Newimpartial (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Thomas Johnson, the lead author of the eunuch chapter, also recently co-authored this journal article about the Eunuch Archive website. Table 1 ("Various forms of voluntary and involuntary genital ablations in the top 100 Eunuch Archive stories") confirms the Economist's claim that the site hosts stories about castrating boys against their will. gnu57 02:22, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't have access to the journal article in question: what is the passage that supports stories about castrating boys against their will? Or course, if the scholarly source does confirm this, WP:V is satisfied without consulting The Economist... Newimpartial (talk) 02:36, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: It's a table, so there's no directly quotable passage, but Table 1 says that 34/100 of the top stories on the website contain "involuntary ablations" of minors where "ablation" refers to any kind of genital removal. In terms of specifically castration (orchiectomy), 24/100 of the top stories on the website include an involuntary castration of a minor. The reason why one might wish to use The Economist over that journal article is because The Economist is a secondary source, while that journal article is a primary source written by someone involved with the guidelines. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:48, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

While I'm not going to pose as an expert in sadomasochistic erotica, it is precisely the move from the table's involuntary to The Economist's against their will that I am questioning here. And given that no other sources appear to back up the interpretation offered by The Economist, we have reason to doubt that the journalist's expertise in this area is any stronger than mine. So I actually think this remains an excellent example of a case where we should not simply defer to the magazine's overall reputation in assessing it as a source. Newimpartial (talk) 18:56, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: Nobody is expecting you to be an expert in sadomasochistic erotica, but it's generally expected that editors on Wikipedia will know basic linguistic concepts such as the idea of a synonym. Here is a link to a dictionary that defines "involuntary" as an adjective meaning Acting or done without or against one's will. [55] The Economist using words you do not understand does not make it an unreliable source. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

My understanding is that in this context the terms are not necessarily synonyms. To use an analogy: compulsory military service is "involuntary", but being press-ganged is "against one's will". Please do not condescend to me with phrases like using words you do not understand when I am trying to have a WP:CIVIL discussion about specific meanings; I find it unhelpful. Newimpartial (talk) 21:34, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: Your understanding of the English language should be cited to reliable sources. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. I am a linguistic pragmatist, with the result that I don't find appeals to dictionaries especially helpful. Newimpartial (talk) 22:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: By that logic, I can easily get any source rated as unreliable at RSN by redefining words in my own head so that the source is now wrong. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:36, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

But redefining words in my own head is pretty much the opposite of linguistic pragmatism. What we do is pay attention to how words are used in specific contexts, and there can be a significant semantic difference between "involuntarily" and "against one's will" - in spite of what some dictionaries might say. Newimpartial (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Most of these arguments rely on: "well, The Economist covered this, but some other outlets didn't"; which is a fantastic argument for not downgrading The Economist's reliability so all credible arguments can be represented fairly. The Economist typically extensively quotes subject-matter experts in their trans coverage, and I find all these articles credible; though obviously we can all disagree with credible articles and have our own perspectives.

• Your source for "anti-trans screed" comments on an op-ed.
• You link to a Daily Dot article about Helen Joyce; I already debunked that she has anything to do with the Economist's trans coverage. Again, she was a Finance editor. And her book had nothing to do with the Economist.

Now onto the sources:

1. The Economist argues that gender ideology has distorted U.S. medical education, to the detriment of patients, including trans people. They present several arguments, good evidence, quotes from students and doctors (including trans doctors) who agreed, and criticizes dehumanizing language in textbooks. I see no bias or factual inaccuracies. The fact that you disagree with them doesn't make them fringe. Of the so-called experts you point to, who argue that "gender ideology" is a myth, most of them self-describe as activists, and none of them are medical experts who would be qualified to discuss what the Economist is talking about. It kind of proves the Economist's point, and to me, shows why it must not be downgraded so that all credible viewpoints can be correctly represented on Wikipedia. I don't see the piece as biased at all; it makes its case well.
2. Here again, the argument relies on "gender ideology" being a conspiracy theory, when the Economist is talking about concrete policy steps. It's a purely semantic argument, with its critics taking it to mean something different than what The Economist uses it for. The argument that medicine has become politicized is a perfectly valid one; not a biased one.
3. I see nothing wrong with the piece on the Eunuch passage; it seems perfectly factually accurate. The groups you call fringe are correctly described as advocacy groups by The Economist; and they include the WPATH's response, which seems fair.
4. I'm not considering whether it's due; merely whether it's factually accurate and non-ideologically biased. Marci Bowers's response did not pointed to clear inaccuracies or bias; yes, her comments were truncated, but that's universal to every single newspaper interview. In this case, it didn't seem like cherry-picking. I see zero issues here.

I find it hard to conclude that the Economist should be categorized as biased, without us also needing to categorize practically all LGBT-focused sources as biased (since many of their writers, again, self-describe as activists). I think that would be highly unwise, and would make for worse coverage in trans article, and would support the status quo here. Moreover, since the Economist's pieces are well-researched and argued, I think a downgrade would be highly detrimental to our coverage on trans topics, and would lead to widespread WP:NPOV violations. That doesn't mean we must only use The Economist! But trying to downgrade it to avoid these necessary talk page discussions would be inappropriate. DFlhb (talk) 01:00, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

DFlhb, why do you regard this Adcocate piece as an op-ed?

Also, your claim to have debunked that (Joyce) has anything to do with the Economist's trans coverage is flatly contradicted by the Daily Dot RS, which links a number of articles published under her byline. Perhaps you might read that one again, with less implicit confidence in your own prior assumptions?

Concerning your other claims:

1. Are you claiming that "gender ideology" actually exists, and is shown in RS to do so? Your comment here appears to reverse Wikipedia's WP:RS hierarchy that puts peer-reviewed publications and experts ahead of general and self-published sources.

2. Once again, you are siding with The Economist against the great bulk of scholarly and high-quality sources.

3. If you think an aricle that presents 80% of the response to the WPATH through the perspective of WP:FRINGE anti-trans advocacy groups is fair - well, I have to question your judgement about that one. The perspective of mainstream transgender health practitioners is entirely left out in The Economist's reporting.

4. If it didn't seem like cherry-picking to you, but it did seem that way to the interview subject, why should we take your opinion over that of the interview subject?

Finally, your claim that the Economist's pieces are well-researched and argued when they largely ignore the scholarly and professional consensus around transgender healthcare while amplifying the views of FRINGE cranks like Genspect and SEGM - well, I remain unconvinced of that one. The position that Wikipedia needs to platform FRINGE views to prevent widespread WP:NPOV violations does not meet with widespread community support, to the best of my knowledge. Newimpartial (talk) 01:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The Advocate piece is news, but comments on an op-ed (labelled "By Invitation").

For the Daily Dot, that's precisely what I debunked. Not a single one of the articles were published under her byline. She wrote a fluff piece to conclude a series of op-eds (all "Open Future" articles are opinion pieces by contributing writers), all of which were written by others.

1. I'd agree if the scholars argued the same point as The Economist; but they merely argue that it's a harmful term (very reasonable argument); The Economist only uses it in the headline, but the article body is detailed about specific problems documented by medical students and doctors (I restate, including a trans doctor), and doesn't feel cherry-picked. Scholarly pieces on terminology have zero bearing on whether the Economist's arguments there are biased or misleading.
2. Same comment; there is no conflict between scholarly sources & The Economist, since the former aren't addressing what the latter is talking about.
3. That article's claims (that critics worry about the minimum age limit, overmedicalization, and reversibility) are factual, and I believe those criticisms are fringe within the broader medical community (though we may disagree with these views ourselves).
4. The interviewee restates her concerns over puberty blockers in her 'correction', far from walking them back; from my reading, it seemed like she made controversial statements, which she was presumably attacked for on social media, and was trying to lay the blame on the Economist, but I don't think that she ever repudiated the controversial things she said, which she confirmed she still believed. It seemed more like damage control. Indeed, Marci Bowers is still criticized in the trans community for those statements.

Cheers DFlhb (talk) 02:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Concerning Joyce, your description of her conclusion as a fluff piece completely understate s her role (and undermines her agency) in making the series happen in the first place. Also, I am getting tired of your false or partial statements:

1. The Economist only uses the concept of trans ideology in the headline - no, it is used twice in the article text, as I documented above.

2. there is no conflict between scholarly sources & The Economist, since the former aren't addressing what the latter is talking about. What is the difference between the "gender ideology" that The Economist presents as real and the "gender ideology" the RS describe as not being real?

3. Presumably you don't believe those criticisms are fringe within the broader medical community, but why? I found no non-FRINGE sources for any of them.

4. It seemed more like damage control - you never answered my question about why your interpretation is more credible than that of the interview subject; all you did was elaborate on your interpretation. Newimpartial (talk) 02:22, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, I meant to point out that your description of James Cantor and other Genspect devotees as subject-matter experts strikes me as hilarious, clueless and contemptible all at once. Newimpartial (talk) 03:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I expected you'd misread my comment or place words in my mouth (sadly far from the first time). I was referring to the fact they quote doctors (unaffiliated with any partisan group) in practically every piece of coverage; they are subject matter experts, not Genspect or Cantor. DFlhb (talk) 03:55, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

It is actually more typical of The Economist to quote doctors who are affiliated with a FRINGE geoup (which is presumably how the magazine finds them) without noting their partisan affiliation - as in the example I gave earlier. Newimpartial (talk) 04:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: As elaborated below I find these evidence to be weak at best:

Extended content

A "gender critical" editorial line was pursued under the leadership of Helen Joyce, as has been documented in (RSN-green source) the Daily Dot in 2019. Outside of her work at The Economist, Joyce continued to pursue this approach in her controversial[38] book Trans, written while working for The Economist,[39], and that she now follows (while on leave from The Economist) as director of advocacy for sex matters, a group campaigning to protect the expression of "gender-critical" views.[40] Similarly to Loki you keep reiterating the publication of the book, which is not directly published by The Economist and is irrelevant to the news section. I have yet seen anyone linking to any article from Joyce that is obviously problematic. Moreover, a Tweet, similar to a YouTube video, does not fall under a news article, which is the scope of the RfC here: What best describes The Economist's news coverage of transgender topics? Unless I am misreading the text, the line (trans ideology is distorting the education of America's doctors is only mentioned in the headline, which as per WP:HEADLINE is unreliable. It is then paraphrased but then attributed from a lecturer: When a lecturer told her that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. It suggested..., the second time that is paraphrased while attributed to Katherine. Unless I am misreading the article, your first evidence is unconvincing. The first piece has some social-related claims but also other medical ones falling under WP:MEDRS. In the second example you state Again, while I was unable to identify potentially reliable sources to corroborate the [Biden] administration's embrace of "gender ideology". You list two WP:RS sources, but they do not seem to disprove The Economist as invalid. This seems to be a WP:DUE concern whether than a WP:RS concern. Just because other sources did not cover it does not denote that The Economist is unreliable, contrarily, it implies that the article by The Economist is WP:UNDUE and WP:BIASED in this case, thus should not be included in our articles. However, I've yet to see you provide any credible sources or fact-checks disproving the claim as misleading. In the third example, you admit that Now I have no idea whether the latter statement is true or not, but it is not backed up by any of the other sources (e.g., The Times, The Telegraph) discussing the site in question, thus even you are unsure if it fails reliability. You iterate that you did not manage to find other sources discussing this but that is a weak claim for unreliability. Similarly to mentioned above, given that you did not provide scholarly sources directly contradicting the coverage by The Economist, I'm unconvinced here as well. Citing WP:FRINGE but not downright WP:QS sources is a further testimony of WP:BIASED and WP:UNDUE but I don't see reliability being a concern. Similarly, in the fourth example you state The dubious exceptions being the news feeds of WebMD and Medscape, and RSN Yellow-labelled National Review). While ignored by high-quality sources, the interview was picked up by mostly WP:FRINGE contributor Genspect and an [https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/gender-dysphoria-in-children-risking-harm-from-well-intentioned-parents-and-doctors/ RSOPINION piece from Canada. Similar coverage from other WP:BIASED and marginally reliable sourcing seem to suggest this piece is WP:UNDUE as well, and I would caution it being included in the article. Notwithstanding, I still do not see multiple WP:RS directly contradicting any claims made by The Economist as invalid. If one or both of these problems exist in these instances, I think it should be clear that a policy-based close of this filing cannot conclude that the magazine is generally reliable for its coverage of transgender topics (as the filer, who has advocate its use in one of the cases I am using as an example, had presumably hoped[42]), but rather that additional considerations apply. The Economist would have published less articles in contrast to The Times on The Telegraph, but still likely has hundreds of pieces. Stating that a couple of cases are WP:FRINGE does not equate to marginal reliability. Moreover, I think it should be clear that a policy-based close of this filing cannot conclude that the magazine is generally reliable for its coverage of transgender topics (as the filer)- I currently see the discussion split between Option 1 and X. Some of the votes might be slightly weaker on one side but that is insufficient to turn the result to Option 2/3/X. To sum it up you state Given these four examples, it seems clear to me that the policy-compliant conckusion is that additional considerations apply, given the repeated statements The Economist makes in its news coverage, in its own voice, that align with a tiny minority of FRINGE sources rather than the overwhelming WP:WEIGHT of mainstream and high-quality sources. I disagree, I don't see that the WP:RS guideline a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy is violated to downgrade to marginally reliable. Not all sources that cite WP:FRINGE ones are regarded as marginally reliable or unreliable, to list an example Jacobin cited unreliable/fringe sources but is generally reliable with caveats. That is a different case of course but I don't see which policy-compliant conclusion is shown. In my opinion your four pieces successfully raise WP:BIASED and WP:DUE concerns and is significantly better than the articles LokiTheLiar raised, but I don't see significant challenges to reliability here, I do not see that those disprove a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy to downgrade it to marginally reliable.

To ping a few users who've supported or refuted similar evidences in this RfC: LokiTheLiar, DFlhb and Red-tailed hawk, would you agree or disagree with this assessment? Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 00:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

:::@Newimpartial: And P.S. you accuse me of perceiving The Economist in general but seem to ignore totally that I have refuted the so-called evidence you and Loki provided. VickKiang (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Strike comment per comments and objection below.

Please don't over-interpret my diffs; I only made reference to your original !vote which, as far as I can tell, was made before you had examined any of the context for this filing.

As far as your claim to have refuted the so-called evidence I provided, I don't believe you to have done so; see below. On the other hand, your subjective belief that you have done so suggests a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and may also explain why you seem to have misconstrued both my intention in presenting the evidence and some of the evidence itself. Newimpartial (talk) 00:55, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I have striked my comment, which might be confrontational in your opinion, but I don't believe I have violated BATTLEGROUND, NPA, CANVASS... otherwise. Your comment is inaccurate as I've commented at the LBC News and read the discussion, please don't draw such sweeping conclusions next time to other editors and I as well. Not saying that you are implying this, but just because I commented promptly doesn't mean I am ignoring the context (again, not suggesting that you mean this, just a side observation). If you have other concerns with my conduct feel free to bring it to another venue (not implying that you have so, so not WP:STRAWMAN at all). Nevertheless, thanks still for the note. VickKiang (talk) 10:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

And side note: Once again apologies for the wording. While that refute is similar to the wording used at WP:NEGOTIATE and was not meant to be "defeat" or "won"... I apologise if the confrontational wording rendered in your intrepretations. Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 20:27, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

To begin with, I don't want to be dragged into a Helen Joyce rabbit-hole, but there is plenty of expert sourcing about The Economist's publications on trans issues prior to 2020 that makes both her biases, and the continuity with her subsequent non-Economist publications and advocacy, quite clear.

Concerning the medical education aricle, I will correct my statement above, but the relevant passages from the article body incude It suggested that gender-identity ideology, which holds that transgender women are women and trans men are men, had influenced some of those who were training her to be a doctor and How has trans ideology made its way into medical schools? - still unattributed statements in the voice of The Economist. In spite of your claims, neither of these statements are attributed to the lecturer.

If the proposed use of The Economist in this instance were "one medical student suspected that gender ideology had distorted her medical education", I would agree that the magazine would be reliable for that statement, but that was not the question, it was Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that trans ideology Is distorting US medical education? I do not see how this question could be answered in the affirmative.

Similarly, my second question was Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that the Biden administration has embraced gender ideology? This is a factual question which demands a yes or no answer: either "gender ideology" is real or it isn't, and if real either the Biden administration has embraced it or it hasn't. VickKiang, I simply don't understand how you can in good conscience duck this key question, on which The Economist lines up with the FRINGE sources against mainstream sources, and then conclude that the claim is BIASED but with no prejudice against the reliability of the source.

On the third issue, my point was that we have a specific characterisation that is made in The Economist alone. My question is whether the source can be regarded as reliable for the claim, and onxe again you dodge the question with reference to DUE. If your point is that, when The Economist relies on FRINGE spokespeople and is the only periodical publishing a characterisation, that it is unlikely for that characterisation to be DUE, then in fact you are supporting what I mean when I say that additional considerations apply. Those seekinf to rubberstamp the prior assumption that The Econimist is "generally reliable on transgender topics" are precisely seeking to ensure that content sourced only to it and similar WP:BIASEDSOURCES is considered DUE and presented as fact in wikivoice- as I have documented above.

Finally, on my fourth example, if you do not see the interview subject's own disavowal of the published coverage of the interview as directly contradicting any claims made by The Economist then I'm afraid I don't know how to interact with you. The Economist states that "gender identity ideology" exists (in many more articles beyond the ones I discuss here), while the high-quality sources on transgender topics are clear that it does not - that seems like a rather direct contradiction.

Finally, I'm afraid you are strawmanning my argument when you say, Stating that a couple of cases are WP:FRINGE does not equate to marginal reliability - I have never been suggesting marginal reliability, I am proposing that additional considerations apply. To specify what those considerations might be, they might include the fact that The Economist often includes highly partisan language in its coverage of trans issues, language which should not be regarded as factual or presented in wikivoice, as numerous editors in the GENSEX area typically insist on doing. Another consideration is that when The Econonist choses to amplify FRINGE voices in its news reporting, this form of advocacy should not be considered as contributing to WP:DUE except where issues are picked up outside of the "gender critical" echo chamber. Inclusion of those two caveats would go most of the way to addressing the concerns I have been articulating all along, concerns that I believe the initial filing was intended to pre-empt and plow under. Newimpartial (talk) 00:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Option 2 can also mean marginally reliable, this is not at all a straw man. I am intrigued what do you mean by the mainstream sources. Additionally, you enjoy straw man my argument and Chess’s as well by exaggerating a single comment. Your comments state high quality sources- as in scholarly ones or the standard similar to FAA? Further, you still generalise the Joyce one as quite clear without providing examples. VickKiang (talk) 00:55, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Did my !vote specify what I meant ("additional consideractions apply"), or did I not?

Meanwhile, I don't see how linking the diff of your !vote could straw man (your) argument. I wasn't saying anything about your subsequent argument, at that point, only the logic of your initial !vote. Newimpartial (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I don't see how linking the diff of your !vote could straw man (your) argument. I wasn't saying anything about your subsequent argument, at that point, only the logic of your initial !vote- in fact, I could also link your initial vote devoid of context before you completed your insightful analysis. But that is obviously unhelpful. VickKiang (talk) 02:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Incidentally, per WP:MREL No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply: The source is marginally reliable (i.e. neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable), and may be usable depending on context. "additional considerations apply" could be taken marginally reliable and may be usable depending on context. This is not a straw-man argument, but I apologise if my imprecise wording bothers you. VickKiang (talk) 02:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Through If your point is that, when The Economist relies on FRINGE spokespeople and is the only periodical publishing a characterisation, that it is unlikely for that characterisation to be DUE, then in fact you are supporting what I mean when I say that additional considerations apply- per WP:DUE, Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. That IMO it occasionally covers WP:FRINGE topics and organisations and could be sometimes (but not always) WP:UNDUE and WP:BIASED in occasional (not most) examples you gave does not mean I would like to downgrade it to additional considerations apply. If the viewpoint from The Economist is minor it might not be a significant viewpoint per DUE, of course. But I don't see how at all how I am indirectly supporting your position. VickKiang (talk) 02:57, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I understand that you are unwilling to caveat The Economist with an "additional considerations" note, but I don't really understand why. You acknowledged above that Citing WP:FRINGE but not downright WP:QS sources is a further testimony of WP:BIASED and WP:UNDUE but I don't see reliability being a concern, but the selection of sources is precisely one aspect of reliability (alongside the use of inflammatory or biased language) that I see as the relevant additional consideration. I had meant to note previously that many of those sought out for comment by The Economist are WP:QS as well as WP:FRINGE; you referred to the categories as though they were mutually exclusive, when in fact they overlap significantly. In your reply to my evidence you repeatedly noted that The Economist was sourcing statements that would not be DUE for inclusion in our articles: that is what I regard as indirectly supporting my substantive position on article content (though not my recommendation for RSN caveats). Newimpartial (talk) 03:34, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I will not be amending it here. Indeed, per my original vote I consider to be a generally mainstream, well-established magazine that occasionally is WP:UNDUE and WP:BIASED. However, you present four of the worse cases, and I agree they are WP:UNDUE and WP:BIASED in these situations. Nevertheless, I find the evidence for that it is almost always WP:BIASED or that its reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that requires a downgrade unconvincing. Besides, I consider WP:QS to be generally unreliable sources, many of the other sources you cited that report the story, e.g., Examiner, WebMD does not fall into this category. Given that you described my general viewing of the source as Various editors in this discussion have apparently !voted on the RfC question without examining any evidence beyond their own perceptions of The Economist as a reliable source in general, it is obvious that we will not come to an agreement so I will abstain from this discussion. VickKiang (talk) 04:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

It suggested that gender-identity ideology, which holds that transgender women are women and trans men are men, had influenced some of those who were training her to be a doctor and How has trans ideology made its way into medical schools?

Just before It suggested..., The Economist states that when a lecuter told a class that gender dysphoria was not a mental illness... and previously also refers to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I do not see this instance being in its editorial voice. This is not an example of editorial voice.

Moreover, sources that occasionally cite WP:FRINGE context are not always considered to be unreliable. E.g., on RSP, National Geographic, Science Based Medicine, and even Snopes are described as frequently covering fringe material.

Further, in the piece from I remain disappointed by the tone and intent of the article. My comments were taken out of context and used to cast doubt upon trans care, particularly the use of puberty blockers. Worse, Jazz Jennings was disrespectfully and erroneously portrayed as a puberty blockade failure, based solely upon her television portrayal. That said, the author conveyed to me that she is not against the use of puberty blockade but rather, interested in better informed consent, a principle upon which we both agreed. I did believe that my comments would be conveyed fairly. While the interviewee criticised the usage of the context, I also had a look at a related article from The New York Times quoting Bowers, though I don't see equitable criticism there.

On the fourth point, the current version of the FAQ states that Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria is a largely discredited acronym referring to those transgender persons who appear to ‘come out of nowhere’, skeptics attributing their choice to transition as nothing more than social contagion. It is a term used by conservatives and naysayers to deny, discredit and de-legitimize transgender persons and their search for identity as being a short term, impulsive act influenced by others. However, consider an archived version early in 2021, I don't see any parts of the FAQ criticising ROGD as so. Similarly, in a September 2021 archived version at here I couldn't find info from the FAQ that contradicts The Economist's comment on ROGD. From what I see in the archives the FAQ has substantially changed from the 2021 versions to the 2022 versions. Do you have sources that demonstrate that prior to The Economist's reporting Marci had a directly contradictory view of ROGD? Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 02:52, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The first issue here is becoming a bit ridiculous. It can by no means refer to the DSM, which cannot possibly have suggested that gender-identity ideology, which holds that transgender women are women and trans men are men, had influenced some of those who were training her to be a doctor. Only the content of the lecture could have done that, and this content (when a lecturer told a class that gender dysphoria was not a mental illness) is presented in neutral narrative voice - as fact - by The Economist.

Also, I don't understand what you mean by I also had a look at a related article from The New York Times quoting Bowers, though I don't see equitable criticism there - are you suggesting that the content of The Economist and the NYT on this matter are the same? Because I'm not aware of any issues using the NYT as a source on this, and I wouldn't expect the views of the interview subject to the the same concerning the two sources.

Finally, I'm afraid I'm not understanding quite what you're saying about archived versions of the FAQ. Are you suggesting that something in an old version of the FAQ confirms information presented by The Economist that became discredited by later versions of the FAQ? Because I was only referring to The Economist's interpretation of the Bowers interview, not to anything else in its article which may or may not have been up to date at the time. Newimpartial (talk) 03:13, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. The Economist is a well-established magazine that has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Per Colin's excellent analysis, I acknowledge WP:DUE concerns on that editors would perceive it as a WP:BIASED source (though I personally disagree). Further, WP:MEDRS should be preferred in medical areas. However, insufficient evidence has been provided to downgrade to additional considerations apply. Rephrasing a comment above iterating exactly the same points: WP:DUE states that Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. I regard that most reliable sources could be WP:UNDUE in an area, and acknowledge that in many examples provided above that The Economist is very occasionally WP:UNDUE and sometimes WP:BIASED. However, due weight is a consideration required for all WP:RS sources, while The Economist could be more biased/opinionated than the median WP:GREL these are not an additional considerations IMO that falls under additional considerations apply per WP:MREL that needs to be examined on a case-to-case basis. (This is of course my personal opinion, I'll try to abstain from commenting any further otherwise.) VickKiang (talk) 20:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. This is a standard liberal WP:NEWSORG based in the United Kingdom. The Economist seems to be generally reliable for factual reporting of news, even in politically fraught areas. That being said, no WP:NEWSORG is WP:MEDRS, so it cannot be used to support claims relating to human biomedical information, much in the same way that we should not use the Washington Post and The Guardian for claims relating to human biomedical information. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 20:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

The Economist is deeply conservative. Are you getting their economic position (economic liberalism) confused with their political one?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not confused here; the paper expresses both economically and socially liberal stances (and has done so throughout its existence). It is hardly a paper of deeply rooted social conservatism; the paper has supported decriminalization and legalizaion of drugs including (cocaine and psychedelics), supported same-sex marriage as early as 2004 (when six-in-ten Americans and about half of Brits opposed it), comments positively upon laws banning corporal punishment in children, supports the decriminalization of prostitution among other items. While they endorsed Bush in 2000, they've endorsed the Democratic candidate for President in every single U.S. election since John Kerry in 2004. Looking across the pond, their U.K. general election endorsements since 2001 have broken for Labour twice, the Tories twice, and the Lib Dems twice. Its editorial stance can be described as being radically centrist or classically liberal, but I'm not really sure how one could conclude that deeply conservative could plausibly apply as a descriptor for this publication's broad editorial and political position. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 3. One of The Economist's executives is Helen Joyce. Helen Joyce is the author of a book titled Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality, has said that trans people are "a huge problem for a sane world" and that they are all "damaged", and has advocated for preventing even adult trans people from transitioning. We know for a fact that Joyce is at least sometimes editorially responsible for their coverage of trans issues, because she was openly the emcee of this series of editorials on trans identity. Because of this (and the general problems with WP:BIASED trans coverage in British newspapers), I believe The Economist is not reliable on trans issues, as a major figure in their editorial process demonstrably holds strong fringe opinions on this matter. Loki (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2022 (UTC) See amended vote below. Loki (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality is not a book published directly by The Economist, but another book published by its executives. Could high-quality scholarly sources be provided that demonstrated Helen's reporting in news pieces is routinely inaccurate in relation to this topic? VickKiang (talk) 21:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  I think the relevant argument is that her influence as editor had an impact on news coverage of trans issues by The Economist (the relationship between news and editorial in the UK being more like a Blood-brain barrier than a water-tight compartment). Newimpartial (talk) 21:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'm aware that you are compiling a list, so please ping me on Sunday once you get multiple sources directly criticising Helen Joyce's coverage instead of an assumption currently without much evidence. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 22:04, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  the relationship between news and editorial in the UK being more like a Blood-brain barrier than a water-tight compartment- we are asking about What best describes The Economist's news coverage of transgender topics? Opinion pieces seem irrelevant, and contradict the consensus at WP:RSOPINION. VickKiang (talk) 22:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Just to note, Helen Joyce was an executive editor for The Economist’s events business (whatever that means) since March 2020, and was a finance editor before that. She's not an executive, she's currently on a sabbatical, and she had nothing to do with the article being disputed here on WPATH.

She also had nothing to do with the series of editorials on trans identity that you link to (back then, again, she was Finance editor); she just wrote an article linking to all those editorials in one place; but didn't author any of them (each of them has a byline and an identified author).

I do obviously condemn her, but I don't agree that this remotely justifies downgrading The Economist. DFlhb (talk) 21:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Given that she's on unpaid sabbatical, and worked in the event space, I wouldn't say she's "a major figure in their editorial process". Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 21:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  After the line Helen Joyce is the Finance editor at The Economist it does indeed link to various other pieces by numerous other editors. I couldn't see evidence that those other linked pieces are inaccurate and severely misleading. Of course, Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality is a rightfully critiqued book but it's published by Oneworld Publications, Simon & Schuster per the WP page, not through The Economist. VickKiang (talk) 21:15, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment A few sources I have found on the general issue with transphobia in the British press (not necessarily the Economist specifically):

• CNN: Anti-trans rhetoric is rife in the British media. Little is being done to extinguish the flames
• Paul Baker, a professor of linguistics: Representing trans people in the UK press – a follow-up study (NB: I'd like to find a peer reviewed version of either this or the original study but for now this is what I could find)
• Xtra: British media is increasingly transphobic. Here’s why
• Them: Meet the Trans Storytellers Fighting British Transphobia (subtitle calls Britain's press "virulently transphobic")
• PinkNews: Journalist Juliet Jacques on how UK media is trying to ‘crush’ trans people: ‘We’re not in control’
• Gay Times: Meet the journalist navigating Britain’s anti-trans press
• USAToday: The Roots of Anti-Trans Feminism in the U.K.
• Vice: The UK Is So Transphobic That Some Trans People Are Leaving
• Insider: The BBC and The Times are accused of stoking a 'moral panic' against the trans community

Loki (talk) 21:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that we generally declare the press of the United Kingdom unreliable for coverage of transgender topics? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 21:47, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Red-tailed hawk: @LokiTheLiar: As I said below almost all of those doesn't relate to the sources specifically. E.g., the CNN piece critiques The Times as According to her analysis, in 2020 the Times and the Sunday Times published “over 300 articles, almost one a day, and they were all negative.” CNN has reached out to both newspapers for comment. According to her means that it is expressing another journalist's opinion instead of the CNN editors directly criticising it. The other example lists to an essay/opinion piece as I said below. The piece you linked from Insider, a marginally reliable source for news, links to this piece, letters to the editor. Letters, commentary, and opinion pieces should be regarded per WP:RSOPINION, I don't think we should, in a RfC about What best describes The Daily Telegraph's news coverage of transgender topics, link to pages criticising their opinion/commentary coverage. VickKiang (talk) 21:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Red-tailed hawk: Unreliable per se, no: I'm sure there are some exceptions. But since this is clearly a systemic issue I don't see what we gain from tackling it on a paper-by-paper basis. I do think that because of the systemic problems with the UK press, we should stop assuming that UK newsorgs that are reliable generally are necessarily reliable for trans issues specifically, and instead require separate evidence of that. Loki (talk) 23:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@LokiTheLiar: It's certainly interesting to hear that you legitimately want to blanket ban the UK press on trans issues. Methinks we should ban the American press from covering overseas newspapers, due to the systemic issue of American newspapers thinking they are better than everyone else in the world (American exceptionalism). Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 05:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any sources which actually talk about that being a real issue in American newspapers? If you do then of course that is something we can discuss, if it does not then don't be disruptive. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:23, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Here's several about the New York Times. [56] [57] [58] Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:47, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Those are opinion pieces, I'm asking for real sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Most of the sources in the original comments aren't real sources either. They're opinion pieces or interviews. Trying to declare the whole British media as being unreliable on the subject of transgender topics based on those sources is the same as what I'm doing, which is linking a bunch of opinion pieces attacking a newspaper that isn't even the subject of this discussion.

As far as I'm aware, using sarcasm on a Wikipedia noticeboard is not disruptive. If it was, we'd have to block a fifth of our editors. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:31, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

On the whole, I think we should consider UK press as WP:MREL when it specifically comes to trans topics. Some sources are better than others, but as Loki has pointed out British media has an overall anti-trans bias that in some cases is impacting on their ability to accurately report on factual matters. Accordingly these sources should be more carefully scrutinised in this context. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I won't do my usual breakdown here, but, similar to my detailed analysis of similar sources when it comes to the Telegraph discussion below, given my quick read of these links, I don't think they demonstrate any unreliability. DFlhb (talk) 23:20, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1: I don't see how the opinions of the events editor are relevant to editorial accuracy of the news division. The sources alleging transphobia in the British press cover accusations or of questionable quality. 2A01:4B00:9D42:6E00:A960:7681:3CB9:A529 (talk) 22:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Honestly I don't see the need for this RfC and I suggest a quick WP:SNOWBALL. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  How can WP:SNOWBALL apply when the !votes are divided? Newimpartial (talk) 00:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 I do think snowball applies to all three RFCs. DFlhb (talk) 23:21, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Given the !votes for Option 2 and/or Option 3 in alll three discussions, I have no idea how you feel that WP:SNOW might apply. Newimpartial (talk) 00:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: Separate to the question of reliability is the question of bias, which some assert, and some dismiss as constrained to op-eds. But I think option 1 supporters should more clarify whether they consider the factual reporting biased or unbiased, to avoid causing the closer any headaches, or ending up with a "factual but potentially biased" listing at WP:RSP (which covers the news, not op-eds), as that may or may not match editors' beliefs. Personally, not only have I not seen evidence that its news reporting is unreliable, none of the proof of bias given about op-eds covers the factual reporting; I've read much of said reporting myself, and it seems matter-of-fact and neutral. However I'm open to new evidence,and I'd appreciate if option 2/3 supporters to link to specific articles they feel are biased, rather than by using academic sources that are commenting on the op-eds. DFlhb (talk) 01:15, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1: If editors want to question a specific claim/article that might be valid but to suggest an otherwise well respected source is somehow not respected for just this topic? No and the evidence doesn't support any form of downgrade. Springee (talk) 04:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Right; I'll remind editors here that even the very most reliable oulets on Earth sometimes publish nonsense, poorly fact-checked stuff, and factual inaccuracies, and WP:RS explicitly tells us that we exercise editorial judgment every time we use a source; that sourcing is context-dependent, and that we must consider whether a source is reliable for a particular statement. If you find factual inaccuracies in an article, who cares if it's the New York Times? We shouldn't include it. WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. DFlhb (talk) 05:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 No evidence of unreliability, no evidence of bias. Boynamedsue (talk) 12:15, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X: Scrap RfC. This seems to be a case of someone asking a question on which they favor the status quo, without presenting any of the arguments that have been given elsewhere against the status quo, to drum up easy !votes on their side. Any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Economist on trans topics. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Are you arguing that this RfC prompt is not neutral and brief? A simple question on the general reliability with respect to a topic, with a space below to allow for editors to discuss that, is both the standard RfC format for editors to discuss general source reliability and one that presents the question neutrally. I see no policy basis for including a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Economist on trans topics in the RfC prompt; that is what the discussion among editors is for. The RfC is appropriately worded, and you have ample opportunity to present the arguments against the status quo in this discussion here; we need not scrap the RfC simply because the arguments in opposition to general reliability are not among the very first arguments presented. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  How can an RfC be neutral if it asks a controversial question with zero context? In particular, when it's a question where the argument against the status quo may not be one the average person—who knows only the source's overall positive reputation—is familiar with? Silence is not the same thing as neutrality. Think of it this way: There are respected academics who theorize that gravity is not a fundamental force. If there were an ongoing discussion on an article talkpage about whether we should cite a source that says that it isn't, and a participant then went to a noticeboard and said, with no context, "RfC: Is gravity a fundamental force?", would we see that as a proper RfC? I know I wouldn't. I would see it as an attempt to run up the score early and to sidestep an article-specific discussion of whether the given source is reliable in that context, by someone who knows that anyone asked that question out of context will say "What? Yes, of course." But maybe you have a higher tolerance for people gaming the system than I do. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 15:03, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  A simple 4-option RfC prompt itself is quite neutral. Your example of someone going to WP:FTN to ask them "is gravity a fundamental force" is perfectly fine by me; WP:FTN is explicitly made to seek advice on whether a particular topic (such as the fundamental nature of the gravitational force) is fringe or mainstream. So long as the discussion is well advertised (which, by the nature of being on a well-visited noticeboard it is), I see nothing wrong with that sort of thing and I don't see why your example (or this RfC, for that matter) is anywhere near gaming the system.

  People in this RfC, and in the two RfCs below, have been substantially discussing the claimed issues with the three sources and editors have been presenting arguments related to them. The notion that an RfC that simply asks the broader community to discuss the reliability of a source for a particular set of topics in its coverage is somehow non-neutral is frankly not well-supported. And the assumption that this is done to attempt to run up the score early or to drum up easy !votes on their side seems to be a weakly evidenced claim that the RfC creator is engaging in battleground behavior by merely asking this question to the community; I don't see their actions that way and I can't get behind that sort of sentiment at all. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  If you feel I'm casting aspersions, you are welcome to raise the matter at the appropriate noticeboard. Gnu made a choice to start this RfC without so much as linking to the related ongoing RfC that they and I have participated in and that prompted these RfCs. I see no reason to pretend this was done for reasons other than to try to do an end-run around that discussion. The alternative would be to assume incompetence on the part of an experienced user, which personally I find more insulting than assuming intent. (And that you are, judging from your answer, generally in favor of abusing RfCs to manipulate consensus is irrelevant to the question of whether that's what's happening here.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 15:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  With respect, I do think this is the appropriate noticeboard to note the relatively weak evidence presented that the RfC creator is acting in bad faith, as that claim of bad faith (rather than a reasonable assumption of good faith) is central to the stated logic of your support for Option X. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 22:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Tamzin: without so much as linking to the related ongoing RfC that they and I have participated in and that prompted these RfCs -- what RfC are you referring to? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  @ProcrastinatingReader: Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People § RfC: Eunuchs. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:09, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X per Tamzin et al. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 14:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Oh no, biased op-eds! Perish the thought![59] Adoring nanny (talk) 15:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X In retrospect I shouldn't have said anything but "non-neutral RFC" here. The person who nominated this wants it to be declared reliable. They are WP:FORUMSHOPPING from the discussion on Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. As such, this RFC is premature: no discussion has been had on why these sources might not be reliable on trans issues. Loki (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X no FORUMSHOPPING, please. HouseBlaster^talk 18:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Respectfully, while I understand the "premature RFC" arguments, this isn't FORUMSHOPPING, which involves "raising essentially the same issue" on multiple talk pages. The talk page argument that this stemmed from was about the inclusion of a controversy with several WP:RS sources (a question of dueness), not about whether these three outlets are usable on trans topics; that was just one of the argument that was brought up against dueness. DFlhb (talk) 19:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X this is just forumshopping a content dispute in a misleading manner and there's already an RfC going on in the article in question on whether it is DUE to include the information anyways. Silverseren^C 19:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

(This comment chain was initially added to the RFC prompt, which wasn't quite kosher. Per WP:RFCNEUTRAL, RFC prompts can't "argue" in favor of one option other others. Moving down so it can be discussed here:) DFlhb (talk) 19:51, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X: This RfC is not presented in such a manner as to encourage informed discussion, and should be closed procedurally.

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Further down, you say that the RFC question should contain arguments against option 1 (Any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Economist on trans topics). That would violate WP:RFCNEUTRAL and WP:RFCST, and is in no way a reason to close anything procedurally. The RFC was indeed started somewhat prematurely, but it'll stay open for weeks/a month or so, giving both sides plenty of time to offer new evience. DFlhb (talk) 19:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1, no evidence of unreliability for facts has been presented. As for the claims that this RfC is forum shopping, many in these discussions have been arguing repeatedly, not just at the Standards of Care RfC but also at Talk:Mermaids (charity), Talk:LGB Alliance, and elsewhere, that these sources are actually unreliable and rejecting the consensuses documented at WP:RSP. They variously seem to expect us to take their word for it, or cite the same few op-eds and similar from 'progressive' American media complaining that British papers of record don't go all-in on their preferred policy of absolute gender self-identification. These complainants either need to stop making this disruptive argument or present a case to change the community's mind. After months they failed to do so, preferring to instead disregard RSP on individual talk pages, and so someone else started a discussion. They keep saying a discussion needs to happen, so let's have it. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X I agree with Tamzin that this RfC has not been presented in a way that encourages informed discussion. The context of the underlying discussions that lead to the snap creation of this RfC has been left out by the filer, which is interesting when you compare these three RfCs, with the related discussion on LBC News, also started by the filer. Uninvolved editors are being asked to ask blindly whether or not these sources are reliable in a specific context, without any information as to why they are being discussed as unreliable in that context. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. I would like to point out (controversially) that other editors voting Option 2/3 or Option X also expressed interest towards starting a RfC. E.g., on this very noticeboard in the LBC News section, Newimpartial stated that So far, the relevant discussuons are taking place at article Talk pages, where some of the HQ/academic sources have been presented in an ad hoc way. A number of editors have acknowleged that a noticeboard discussion will be required to amend the list entry; I would attribute my own procrastination on this to (1) my preference to treat The Times and The Telegraph together on this, so we don't see Times pickups replacing Telegraph coverage (as currently happens when either source runs with a Daily Mail story for example) and (2) my inclination to wait for the academic sourcing on this to strengthen further (as seems inevitable given recent developments in the UK), and a range of discussions at User talk:Newimpartial on the potential likelihood of taking The Times and The Telegraph to a noticeboard. Again, just an observation, I have no objectionns towards the Option X being included in the prompt though. VickKiang (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  I agree that a dual RfC on The Times and The Telegraph will be necessary, as there is sufficient evidence that demonstrates that the anti-trans editorial bias from these publications has lead to issues that call their reliability into question. However I know I am still in the preparation stages for those discussions, so at best I see this RfC as a premature filing, and at worst I see it as an outright attempt at putting editors like myself on the back foot by forcing an RfC before we are ready. Either way, this is not contributing to an informed discussion about these two sources. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:37, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  I agree that a dual RfC on The Times and The Telegraph will be necessary, as there is sufficient evidence that demonstrates that the anti-trans editorial bias from these publications has lead to issues that call their reliability into question- I disagree that we should combine two distinct sources together. and at worst I see it as an outright attempt at putting editors like myself on the back foot by forcing an RfC before we are ready- I also happen to strongly disagree that this is a WP:FORUMSHOP attempt, as per that: It does not help develop consensus to try different forums in the hope of finding one where you get the answer you want. (This is also known as "asking the other parent".) Queries placed on noticeboards and talk pages should be phrased as neutrally as possible, in order to get uninvolved and neutral additional opinions- these RfCs have only been asked at RSN, not at other locations. Moreover, it is a standard four-option choice with context additionally added, violates the neutral requirement, so I respectfully disagree. However I know I am still in the preparation stages for those discussions, so at best I see this RfC as a premature filing, and at worst I see it as an outright attempt at putting editors like myself on the back foot by forcing an RfC before we are ready- here I'm unsure if it's that you require more time gathering more evidence or that currently there is insufficient evidence yet, if the latter is true I disagree this filing is premature. Moreover, I should point out that Newimpartial stated they would provide evidence this Sunday. Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 21:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  I should also note for the lack of context issues- while it's better to have some context, they were added by Newimpartial quickly, and even after that there were still voters voting Option 1. Additionally, many past RfCs ending in downgrade/deprecation didn't have context, e.g., Daily Wire RfC at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 358, Daily Star at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 311, New York Post at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 312, to give a few examples. VickKiang (talk) 22:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Indeed, I have seen RFCs dismissed as not neutral because the initial poster added context. Blueboar (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  FWIW, as someone who said something similar, I still mean to discuss the bias of the entire UK press as a whole here at some point. The problem with RFCs on individual papers is, well, look around you. Loki (talk) 23:10, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1/2 but I think it should not be logged at WP:RSP. Otherwise, we might be giving the impression that the source is particularly reliable about this topic, rather than just generally reliably genelist press. Which can also be summarized as Option X. MarioGom (talk) 22:23, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 The Economist is a reliable source, bias in opinion pieces is the nature of opinion pieces. For news articles claiming to be about a medical issue see WP:MEDRS. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. A top tier source, and the fact that we need to have this discussion demonstrates why the RSN process needs to be overhauled or abandoned.

I note that editors opening an RFC are forbidden from presenting arguments for or against the status quo as part of doing so, per WP:RFCNEUTRAL. BilledMammal (talk) 04:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Unsuitable RfC: the dispute seems to be about the article Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People, specifically this edit: citing the Economist. This appears to be an issue of WP:DUE / UNDUE, and thus this RfC is not an appropriate way to resolve it. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

  Reading the related discussion, it's quite clear that some editors party to it believe that The Times, Telegraph, and Economist are not reliable sources on the topic of trans issues, which itself is a question of reliability; the source discussion is not simply about whether or not the sources are WP:DUE. On top of that, the extent to which a source is reliable in a topic area affects the extent to which it is WP:DUE, so community discussion on The Economist will help to resolve that part of the question given that its reliability in this topic area is explicitly contested by an editor in that discussion. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

  Yes and No… IF consensus is that these sources are not reliable, THEN we can say that the content cited to them is UNDUE (because reliability is one of several factors in determining whether content DUE/UNDUE). However, if consensus is that they are reliable, we can not say that the content is DUE (because Reliability is not the only factor in determining whether content is DUE/UNDUE… we have to look at the other factors as well.)

So… while these RFCs are a necessary step in resolving the DUE dispute… they probably will not be the final step. Blueboar (talk) 17:00, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Blueboar, this is not helpful and comes across frankly as naive. I suggest you read some of the trans conflict articles and consider how a "Community consensus vote of approval: ABC is reliable for transgender topics" will be used to game the system. How do you weigh *silence? When a story is only covered in anti-trans articles, by anti-trans journalists and, in the case of the Telegraph, an extremely anti-trans newspaper. When the only coverage of an issue is extremely biased, which makes claims like saying mainstream medicine is "extreme" and arguing for mainstream health-system clinics to close down and those are the only sources. There isn't an "other side" of "reliable sources on the topic" to cite. There's just the hate side. If the Telegraph can pump out hundreds of anti-trans articles a year, what would Wikipedia look like if we included them all? Because that's what approval here will encourage. -- Colin°^Talk 19:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. No evidence has been provided of false reporting by this highly reputable source. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 08:04, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. It is and has always been a reputable source. (Imagine if the reliability of The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, The Financial Times,The Spectator, and every highly regarded newspaper and magazine everywhere were to be questioned here because they had a controversial editor or author on board, or had published an article or opinion considered controversial!) Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 12:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Yes, this is a reputable source, reliable for facts, and no evidence suggests it would not be reputable for a specific topic. --Molochmeditates (talk) 05:12, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Clearly a reliable source. The arguments presented above that it is not a reliable source on these topics are unpersuasive and misdirected, and the arguments that this RFC is procedurally improper are misconceived. This should be closed as WP:SNOW. The same rationale applies to the other two sources. Banks Irk (talk) 19:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  Did you read the analysis I provided, or did you figure a "gut check" would suffice?

  Also, I don't see how WP:SNOW could apply in this situation - have you read it, recently? Newimpartial (talk) 19:07, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  It's possible for people to read what you have written and still believe you are wrong. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  That is entirely true. In fact, I would argue that without reading what I have written, no-one can truly know whether they believe me to be wrong or not. Newimpartial (talk) 22:17, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, I read your analysis. As I said, I find the arguments presented against these sources to be unpersuasive and misdirected. That would, by necessary implication, include your arguments as well. And, yes, I have read WP:SNOW. It applies directly to this situation; other editors have also invoked here it as well. I regard these two questions as bordering on an insult. Now, a question for you: have you read WP:Bludgeon recently? Banks Irk (talk) 19:52, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  This discussion appears to fail "the snowball test" at WP:SNOW, which specifies If an issue is run through some process and the resulting decision is unanimous, then it might have been a candidate for the snowball clause. The result of this filing is already not unanimous. WP:SNOW also specifies that cases where there is a genuine and reasoned basis for disagreement are not good candidates for a SNOW close. So I am struggling to see how the criteria for a SNOW close are met in this instance.

  As far as my previous comment is concerned, I'm not sure you should interpret either question as bordering on an insult. After all, my suggestion that you might not have read my 14,000 characters of analysis could reasonably be interpreted as implying that you have better things to do with your time... Newimpartial (talk) 21:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 3; for transgender topics, the Economist's writers and editors or whatever combination is the case have increasingly ignored and defied reliable, scientific consensus on the subject of trans health in favor of sensationalizing. The problem is worse than just one opinion piece here or there. P-Makoto (talk) 22:56, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X See my responses to the Telegraph and Times of London RFCs. Bowler the Carmine | talk 02:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 No evidence provided that it's unreliable. DoubleCross (‡) 14:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1, in pretty much the same sense as I outlined in the RfCs below on the Times and the Telegraph. It's not especially reliable, but it's generally reliable for factual content. Girth Summit _(blether) 19:15, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Scrap the RFC 1. Trying to derive an overgeneralization 2. Trying to do so based on conformance to one side of a political debate. 3. Conformance to one side of a political debate is not "reliability". North8000 (talk) 15:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Bias on one topic has no bearing on the use of this newspaper as a source of factual information. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 - bias does not equate to reliability, and WP:DUE does not deny a viewpoint weight on the basis of subjective judgments as to the quality of the view. nableezy - 18:32, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

RfC: The Telegraph

What best describes The Daily Telegraph's news coverage of transgender topics?

• Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

gnu57 13:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)

Context: The Telegraph

Note that recent discussions in article Talk where questions have been raised about the coverage in question include several discussions visible at Talk:Mermaids (charity), as well as this discussion on transgender medicine. Newimpartial (talk) 19:23, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Discussion: The Telegraph

• Option 1. This is a standard quality press WP:NEWSORG based in the United Kingdom. It seems to be generally reliable for factual reporting of news, even in politically fraught areas. That being said, no WP:NEWSORG is WP:MEDRS, so it cannot be used to support claims relating to human biomedical information, much in the same way that we should not use the New York Times and The Wall Street Journal for claims relating to human biomedical information.— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• This seems to be trying to get a simple answer to a complex question. Reliability on a single issue (such as transgender) is not necessarily determined at editorial level, and could be down to the columnist. The Sunday Telegraph has a different editor. Transgender issues vary over social, legal and medical matters. We already have WP:MEDRS which does not regard the popular press as reliable sources for biomedical information, so to the extent that a transgender issue is biomedical, it shouldn't be used at all. Of the three sources published recently, The Telegraph is the most problematic wrt transgender issues. Its editorial stance is strongly hostile to transgender rights. It publishes trans-hostile articles nearly every single day, and sometimes many on one day. As I posted elsewhere on the 3rd November, a glance at the previous day's news, 2nd November, produced for anti-trans articles:

• Daniel Radcliffe is surely the world’s most ungrateful man: The actor has once again sought to cancel his creator JK Rowling for believing that women are women and trans women are trans women
• Transgender criminal makes history by appearing in court as both a man and a woman: Offences committed by Alan and Alannah Morgan - the same person - heard at Dundee court
• Nicola Sturgeon’s trans crusade will cost her dearly: By allowing herself to be captured by extremists, she has united both nationalists and unionists against her
• Data on trans BBC staff to be collected by Ofcom: Regulator seeks to better understand gender identity of employees at major broadcasters (if you read other sources on this, gender identity is one of many changes in recent diversity questionnaire, which affects all broadcasters, not just the BBC, but trans, and the hated BBC are the only ones to make the title of the Telegraph article).

Given the small number of trans people and the fact that we are in the middle of an economic crisis, political turmoil and a war in Europe, this does suggest the Telegraph has entirely lost its head wrt transgender. The Telegraph routinely uses the transphobic shibboleths such as "transgender lobby" and "extreme trans ideology" or "gender ideology". This is a newspaper that regards the mainstream medical profession as extremists. I think it should be regarded as a radically trans hostile publication and treated accordingly wrt reliability and weight. -- Colin°^Talk 14:33, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

So you're here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by getting rid of any source that disagrees with your personal opinion on transgender people. It was definitely WP:INCIVIL to express this with a link to the tendentious editing policy, but removing the comment entirely would get rid of context.Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 03:13, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 15:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Chess em, I'm not entirely sure what planet this accusation belongs on, but the one where I didn't create these three RFCs is the one the rest of us are on. Have you received your discretionary sanctions warning about this topic, because comments like that are an easy way to earn a topic ban. -- Colin°^Talk 17:20, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Colin: I'm here because I randomly got a notification from the feedback request service to comment on one of these three RfCs; I don't participate in transgender-related areas very often (though I'm WP:AWARE from way back when due to participating in WP:GGTF) and these sorts of discussions is part of the reason why.

You said The Daily Telegraph "should be regarded as a radically trans hostile publication and treated accordingly wrt reliability and weight" partially because "we are in the middle of an economic crisis, political turmoil and a war in Europe".

I don't really see the point of these comments that say we should consider reliability of sources based on how many pro/anti-trans opinion pieces they publish. The Times and The Daily Telegraph are both newspapers of record and are both the definition of a reliable source.

You've said in another comment in this discussion that "The real question is not whether the Telegraph consistently makes up untrue trans stories, but whether its coverage on the matter is more like a pamphlet from a hate group than reporting one might expect in a broadsheet newspaper." You're acknowledging that you're not commenting about the topic of the RfC, which is whether or not The Daily Telegraph is reliable for factual reporting.

The thing that virtually all pamphlets from hate groups have in common is that they're full of fabrications about a group they wish to defame. If The Daily Telegraph is fabricating stories on transgender people and promoting false information such as the LGBT grooming conspiracy theory or the litter boxes in schools hoax, then say so. I don't see that here. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

What you're missing here is the context of several protracted disputes about due weight with respect to the Telegraph and Times' reposrting on transgender issues. This RFC was started in response to one of those higher up on this page, so regardless of what the formal question reads, this is not just about factual reliability. There is also a connection between these two issues, as noted by Tamzin on Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People: a source focusing on something can be taken as a statement of fact regarding which their reliability is relevant: the statement "this is a thing worth discussing". ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:48, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

No, it's not "regardless of what the formal question reads". This is an RfC. Those who create an RfC are allowed to choose the question, and it's expected that they choose a question that accurately reflects the underlying dispute.

Secondly, the onus is on you to provide this mysterious context if it is so crucially necessary for me to base my !vote on. Not just make vague references to something that happened higher up on this massive notice board.

If people are creating RfCs to inaccurately designate sources as unreliable because it gives an advantage in WP:DUEWEIGHT discussions, that's very concerning and I hope that's not what is happening here. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:09, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Why are you assuming that the RFCs were started by someone wishing to designate these sources as unreliable? On the SOC8 talk page, gnu57 has advocated for inclusion on material sourced from these and called them top-tier, mainstream RS. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 19:13, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Maddy from Celeste: I assumed that because I presume someone starting an RfC on a generally reliable source wants to designate it as unreliable.

Regardless, this is still a top-tier mainstream RS. And if this RfC was created in bad faith to gain an advantage in some dispute I have no knowledge of, then that's a larger issue. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:27, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I have linked some of the related disputes at the top of each source's section head. Newimpartial (talk) 20:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Actually, in addition to being a personal attack, Chess's claim about WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS is deeply ironic. That linked guide ensures we represent "the balance of informed opinion" and show the door to people campaigning for fringe viewpoints in science and medicine. Hmm. If you read about WPATH in the BMJ, NEJM, Lancet and other mainstream medical sources, they are referred to as an authority, a collection of professional consensus, and their guidelines widely followed. Their guidelines, like those from NICE or the DSM are of course subject to medical disagreement and change over time. But they represent consensus medical opinion, which is the highest form of MEDRS. And here we have the Telegraph claiming the organisation is a "controversial lobby group" and their "extremist guidelines" are "widely discredited", quoting the words of an actual extremist lobby group (For Women Scotland) founded by a few random people with strong views but no actual qualifications. As the Telegraph reports, they want Scotland's only specialised gender identity clinic, part of that very mainstream healthcare service calld the NHS, to be closed down. Does that sound like a group and a newspaper who are trying to RIGHT GREAT WRONGS. Yup. If this was covid, we'd have blacklisted them long ago. -- Colin°^Talk 21:27, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Colin: Your point is meaningless since you seem to be conflating editorial voice and attribution. In the article you're referencing [61], The Daily Telegraph doesn't actually call the WPATH guidelines "widely discredited". It uses quote marks to WP:ATTRIBUTE the opinion to For Women Scotland. That means that The Daily Telegraph is not directly endorsing this point. You're also not telling the entire truth on what that source is saying. The term "controversial lobby group" is never used in the article; the article calls WPATH a "controversial trans group". Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:57, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

So I conflated "lobbying group" and "controversial trans group". The difference between editorial voice and attribution does not make my "point meaningless", which is that the article and the lobby group they extensively quote is campaigning to discredit a mainstream medical organisation, a mainstream medical consensus guideline and shut down a mainstream medical organisation's clinic that gives treatment to a group they are hostile towards. I'm not the one righting great wrongs here, it is the editors who are proposing Wikipedia push the views of this fringe group, and the papers and journalists who are fully aligned with them. That's where you went very wrong. As in "I embarrassed myself on the internet" kind of wrong. I think you should stop digging.

Attribution can be used to distance a statement from that of the journalist or editorial view. Here it is not being used for that purpose, but in a "here, let me make my point by quoting a group you'll have heard of (in Scotland anyway)". It gives weight to the journalist's argument (which is clear). They extensively quote one side, and the mainstream medical side is handled through leaked recordings and unspecified sources and only to cast negativity upon them, never to actually give their side.

If a newspaper was covering an issue involving educational support for children in ethnic minorities and refuges, would your first thought be to interview a white Scottish person who had founded "White Scotland"? Would you perhaps think that although this group has strong opinions about ethnic minorities and refuges, they probably know diddly squat about education or about the difficulties those groups face in our education system. It is therefore very telling that this is exactly what the Telegraph did here, but for trans. -- Colin°^Talk 10:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

@Colin: Could you elaborate on what you meant by That's where you went very wrong. As in "I embarrassed myself on the internet" kind of wrong. I think you should stop digging. Specifically, what will happen if I don't "stop digging"? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 23:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@Colin: If you're not going to elaborate on why that isn't a thinly veiled threat to embarrass me on the internet (i.e. WP:DOXXING), I'm going to ask that you strike or remove that part of your comment. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:33, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

You seem to be managing just fine all by yourself, not sure why you think I need to make any threats. -- Colin°^Talk 22:01, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Colin: I think you should bring me to WP:AE for a topic-ban or strike the part of the comment where you threatened it. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 00:06, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The first and third pieces you've linked are clearly labeled as "comment" (i.e. WP:RSEDITORIAL). That guideline notes that [e]ditorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact (internal links omitted). Take that as you will.

The objection you're placing on the second piece's factual accuracy is... what exactly? Are you arguing that Morgan did not actually appear in court for crimes that occurred both before and after transition, or that The Telegraph misrepresented the criminal proceedings in some way?

The objection you're placing on the fourth article is a classic case of WP:HEADLINE. If you read the literal first sentence of the article, the article notes that The media watchdog is to start measuring how many trans and pansexual employees work at the BBC and other major broadcasters in a push to improve diversity. It also describes the granular data collection change practices regarding ethnicity/race and notes changes to data collection practices as it pertains to disabled individuals. You don't actually need to read other sources on this to get that information, so I'm confused as to if your objection is to simply the headline or if you think that something in the article is actually false. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:57, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I didn't vote and I've already noted several times that I think this is trying to oversimplify a complex problem. The complex problem is of course editors who don't understand WP:VNOT and who care not for your nuance about article type and who have in all the recent discussions said effectively that if the Telegraph, a newspaper of note no less, finds something important then we must include it. I listed the above articles merely to note that any national newspaper that thinks running four anti-trans stories of a Wednesday is a balanced and proportional way to report the day's news and events has lost its way. I think participants should be aware of the purpose their vote will be used for. The three sections were created in good faith but also in naivety that votes within this topic domain end up as much more than a popularity count to see how many on each side of the culture war turn up combined with the roulette wheel of opinions of random people on the internet. And as we've already seen above, this topic attracts personal abuse. The real question is not whether the Telegraph consistently makes up untrue trans stories, but whether its coverage on the matter is more like a pamphlet from a hate group than reporting one might expect in a broadsheet newspaper. A statement in our articles on trans issues sourced to the Telegraph is highly likely to be undue and incomplete in important biased ways. I think this is the wrong forum to deal with that, but it is where we are.

What got us here is a debate about WPATH guidelines Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. And the Telegraph article is this one.

• Our article on WPATH describes it as a "a professional organization devoted to the understanding and treatment of gender identity and gender dysphoria, and creating standardized treatment for transgender and gender variant people". The Telegraph describes it as a "controversial trans group" and cites critics (rather than, you know, actual doctors) who claim it is "little more than a lobbying group, set up to legitimise an extreme form of gender ideology".
• Our article on the guidelines describe it as "an international clinical protocol" that "often influences clinicians' decisions regarding patients' treatment. While other standards, protocols, and guidelines exist – especially outside the United States – the WPATH SOC is the most widespread protocol used by professionals working with transgender or gender-variant people.". The Telegraph describes it as "extreme guidelines" and a "widely discredited treatment protocol". And there is much nonsense about the NHS "secretly use[ing]" these guidelines, as well as prurient content that I have no interest in repeating.

So, no, I don't think we can use the Telegraph for sourcing this topic as their standard news reports, in this case by their Scottish Correspondent, are so rabidly frothing as to be on a different world. -- Colin°^Talk 18:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

-- Colin°^Talk 18:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

If people are misusing commentary as a source for facts, then that's an issue with the editors, not the reliability of the organization's news reporting. And, for what it's worth, I would caution us against being overly broad in assigning a particular bias to all of The Telegraph's op-ed/editorial content as anti-trans; the paper won won a Chairman's Award in The 2019 Press Awards for columnist Diana Thomas's regular column in which she wrote about her experience transitioning from male-to-female as an adult. I think there's a bit more nuance to the publication's editorial decision making than merely pumping out anti-trans stories. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 06:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

random people on the internet ouch  :(

Reading this, I thought: "finally, a good example of factual inaccuracies". But sadly, no. "controversial trans group" is only in the headline (which we consider unreliable). "extreme guidelines" similarly comes only from the headline. "widely discredited treatment protocol" was a quote from someone they describe as a critic. And there isn't "much nonsense about" "secretly", that's just used a single time in the headline. DFlhb (talk) 08:33, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Bias is not an issue. Slatersteven (talk) 15:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

The "extreme guidelines" phrase is from a headline, as is "secretly use[ing]"; we don't use headlines from any source. The "widely discredited treatment protocol" is not a description made by The Telegraph; they very clearly attribute it to a representative of a campaign group (it's even in quotation marks). EddieHugh (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not proposing we use those words so our guidelines on using them is not remotely relevant. I mentioned them because they reflect the paper's language they think is fit for describing mainstream medicine. Quotes or not, they only quote Trina Budge, who's medical qualifications are founder of anti-trans pressure group For Women Scotland. Colin°^Talk 21:11, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

"they only quote Trina Budge"... this is also incorrect. They quote WPATH guidelines, NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, an unnamed "senior clinician", a "probe" of some kind, the NHS, the Scottish Government... and Trina Budge. EddieHugh (talk) 21:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

That is the only person they directly quote. The others seem to involve "stuff I dug up" and vague attribution or "leaked" material. Look, if a crank website quotes Dr Crank for his extensively negative views about the WHO or the NHS in a way that is fully supportive of Dr Crank for helping make the case for the journalist, we don't waste our time wondering if some of this negative nonsense about the WHO or NHS is in a headline (I really do boggle at the desperation of that argument made by a few people above) or is editorial or attributed text. We look at it as a whole. I don't know which part of mainstream organisation and mainstream consensus guidelines and mainstream NHS clinic is not clear and how the description of those three things in this article is on another planet from reality. -- Colin°^Talk 11:03, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 No evidence has been provided that this newspaper of record is unreliable/fabricates evidence. WP:RSEDITORIAL applies here as The Daily Telegraph clearly distinguishes between opinion pieces and news reporting. A newspaper that reports true facts should be considered reliable. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:42, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 and suggest SNOW closing this. If there is any question of an RS with unreliable coverage in one area, that needs to be first discussed and unresolved on talk pages before opening such discussions. --Masem (t) 18:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  The Telegraph's trans-related coverage has been discussed at length many, many times on talk pages. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:58, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Then those cases should be brought up as evidence of why it should be changed. The three RFCs on this are all RSes in a broad sense so you will have to show with strong evidence that their factual reporting around trans issues is fundamentally bad (eg how the Fox News limits on politics and scientific reporting were determined to be bad). Masem (t) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Or to put it another way, show some examples of them making stuff up, not bias, lies. Slatersteven (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Please see my above reply to chess. The RFC wording may be about factual reporting, but the underlying dispute fundamentally concerns bias and due weight. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 19:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Which are not RS issues they are wp:undue issues. This is solely about are they an RS, bias is not part of the equation, only factual accuracy. Slatersteven (talk) 19:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Please see my !vote below. There is a point beyond which one-sided coverage is essentially unreliable, and coverage of transgender issues by The Times and The Telegraph is far beyond this point. Otherwise there would not be critical scholarship addressing this coverage in particular. Newimpartial (talk) 19:32, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  If we take what has been presented re the bias of these papers, then we need to apply the same principle across a wide range of RSes for a wide range of topics, such most mainstream US paper on politics in the US. Which, no, is not going to happen.

  We have to understand that bias on a topic is not a reason to make a source unreliable. It is when that bias causes a source to purposely falsify the news (read: Fox News, Daily Mail) that we should take action. That's simply not shown, just that these papers tend to focus on a position that is seen as anti-trans. Masem (t) 16:11, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Wrt making stuff up, the WPATH and their Standards of Care are mainstream consensus guidelines by professionals in the field. The Telegraph writes like a covid crank, claiming they are extremist and discredited. This is simply not true in the medical profession, only among gender critical writers (none of which are experts in the field). Taking the same attitude, here's how the Telegraph would write about covid: "The so-called World Health Organisation, more like World Unhealth Organisation, released controversial guidelines on treating covid that promoted anti-viral therapy. Clinging to the extremist germ-theory ideology, they ignore ivermectin and injectable bleach. The NHS are leaving our children and elderly vulnerable to the death rays from 5G mobile masts." Thats what, as a MEDRS author and long-term WP:MED member, the Telegraph sounds like to my ears. -- Colin°^Talk 20:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

"here's how the Telegraph would write about covid"... to be clear, that's not how they wrote about covid, is it? EddieHugh (talk) 21:06, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

With respect to making stuff up, you're the person writing false quotes from The Daily Telegraph about COVID-19 like that has any relevance to this discussion. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2 - the biases of this broadsheet in its coverage of transgender rights issues have been repeatedly noted in scholarly and other high-quality sources, which is pretty much the definition of additional considerations apply. For example, peer-reviewed scholarly source concludes as follows:

The fact is that the trans community is so rarely given a platform in any form of mainstream media, that the “debate” surrounding their rights rarely includes trans people at all—as evidenced by the exclusion of trans voices in the articles from The Times and The Telegraph. Hence, trans people are dehumanised and denaturalised as their identity is debated and used for political fodder.

• I wouldn't mind if this filing were closed as premature, however, since the editor filing has not linked to any of the previously presented evidence or prior discussions on the topic, and this seems to be a "gotcha" filing intended to precipitate !votes from editors who haven't seen any of the relevant commentary and who would precipitate an ill-informed SNOW close that could then be used as a cudgel to insist that the coverage of trans issues by The Telegraph is unproblematic, when high-quality sources on the topic suggest the opposite. Newimpartial (talk) 19:12, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  +1 ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 19:14, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Feminist Media Studies said about the New York Times and Washington Post that:[62]

  Findings reveal that pregnancy loss coverage reproduces essential and racialized notions of women as domestic, submissive, pious, and pure; reinforces problematic postfeminist rhetoric; and sensationalizes women’s grief in the service of profits. The main contribution of this study is the finding that journalists are perpetuating heteropatriarchal and post-racial ideology in service of the narrative of U.S. exceptionalism by framing miscarriage as an exclusively devastating experience.

  Now maybe it's possible that the NYT and WaPo are both racist and heteropatriarchal organizations that shouldn't be trusted on women's issues, or Feminist Media Studies is a rather biased journal. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:52, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Much as I don't want to encourage editors to free-base source criticism as a general rule, O will point out that the exclusion of trans voices is rather better-demonstrated in the article I linked than racist heteropatriarchy is supported in the article you linked. I don't believe anyone ought to be using one article's publication to discredit the other. Newimpartial (talk) 20:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: If you don't believe in using one article's publication to discredit the other, what are we doing at RSN? This entire board is centered around analyzing reliable sources, but let's grab a pull quote from the very article you posted:

  this paper fills a gap in research on the “quality” newspapers, which are uniquely situated to manufacture the consent necessary for white supremacist capitalist patriarchy because their perception as the gatekeepers of “good” journalism and reliable news means that they are able to authorise certain worldviews and illegitimate others.

  Does using the term "white supremacist capitalist patriarchy" sound a little biased or WP:FRINGE to you? By that article, we may need to designate The Daily Telegraph as being on the same level as The Daily Stormer given that both wish to uphold white supremacy according to the source you've provided. Or maybe it's possible that Feminist Media Studies exaggerates how extremist publications really are given that they just accused The Times of supporting white supremacy. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Is it common practice at RSN to take one article a peer-reviewed journal has published and use that as an argument to deprecate all other articles pubished by that journal? Because that's what I meant by using one article's publication to discredit the other.

  And to answer your other question: using the phrase "white supremacist capitalist patriarchy" does not work for me as a "gotcha" that discredits arguments made in that same article that do not depend on the existence of white supremacy or patriarchy. But clearly YMMV. Newimpartial (talk) 21:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• While I highly respect feminist media studies scholarship, and don't disagree with that paper's perspective (I'll note I'm trans myself, and very familiar with these arguments in general, though not with specific arguments about The Telegraph), the paper states that it bases its analysis on feminist critical discourse analysis. That's a branch of critical theory and critical literature studies, which I must point out is are rather fringe within radical segments of academia.

Part of my degree was in critical theory; all I can say is that it doesn't strive to be objective or "reasonable". I'm emphatically not criticizing it: it's radical, as it very well should be, as its entire goal is to operate outside of societal narratives and cultural assumptions so it can effectively question them and bring new insights. But while it very much is credible, thoughtful scholarship, it would be a category error to see critical studies, as some kind of unbiased, neutral analysis, the same way that, say, scholarship about trans healthcare is neutral and unbiased. Critical studies fields are unabashedly radical, much to their credit, but we should be very mindful of how to use or interpret them.

To give a slightly off-topic but highly revealing example, several of my uni friends have degrees in both accounting and critical accounting studies (a fascinating field for which we lack a Wikipedia article); in the latter, they learned all the ways in which accounting is complete bullshit, relies on arbitrary delineations, and is largely corporate fiction. They went on to become accountants, and while their critical accounting theory (CAT) background gave them a sophisticated understanding of the assumptions underlying accounting, they still disagree with many CAT arguments, and practice accounting in a conventional, "orthodox" way. Critical studies are meant to provide "food for thought" and make us beetter people, but all my critical theory teachers kept reminding us that their field wasn't the end-all-be-all.

For those whose curiosity I piqued, there's a really good book illustrating the sometimes dead-end nature of critical theory arguments, whose name I forgot; I'll try to find it. DFlhb (talk) 20:30, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

All I will say at present is that I dispute that feminist critical discourse analysis is fringe within academia, and point out that critical discourse analysts are far from being the only critics of coverage of trans issues by The Times, The Telegraph and The Economist. Newimpartial (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: Much per DFlhb, I'm frankly unconvinced that a journal on feminist critical discourse analysis is the be-all-end-all in terms of evaluating source reliability. And, even so, the quoted bit that you're taking is a critique related to the omission of transgender voices. While that might play a role in source bias, that is nowhere near the same thing as saying that the news organization is not reliable for the facts that it reports. Are you saying that the news organization actually makes factually incorrect reports here more frequently than we expect of a typical NEWSORG, or does it simply not incorporate transgender voices in its reporting as much as the author of the Feminist Media Studies piece would like? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 20:42, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Please see my reply here; I don't have time to provide additional sourcing today. Newimpartial (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

To add to the concern about using that journal, even if we take the journal itself at its word, we should be including the Guardian among the sources of concern since they are stated to be heavily pro-trans-rights in contrast to the Telegraph or Times. Which would not be reasonable. I think editors should be aware there are biases here, but by no means these should move these papers out of being reliable sources. Masem (t) 20:57, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

That isn't what the article says about The Guardian, Masem. Newimpartial (talk) 21:14, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2 per Newimpartial. Andre🚐 19:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment: Unlike the Times of London and the Economist which might have a little bit of a lean or a POV but are reliable, there is copious criticism of the Daily Telgraph that it is owned/influenced by political parties and advertisers to the extent that I feel option 2 is merited. It has promulgated Covid misinformation.[63] Andre🚐 23:57, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Newimpartial, since we're talking about their transgender coverage specifically, and their transgender coverage is where we have evidence of dubiousness. Option 2 for the Telegraph taken as a whole, with the additional consideration being that they are unreliable on trans issues. Loki (talk) 21:06, 11 November 2022 (UTC) See amended vote below. Loki (talk) 18:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  A few sources I have found on the general issue with transphobia in the British press (not necessarily the Telegraph specifically):

  • CNN: Anti-trans rhetoric is rife in the British media. Little is being done to extinguish the flames
  • Paul Baker, a professor of linguistics: Representing trans people in the UK press – a follow-up study (NB: I'd like to find a peer reviewed version of either this or the original study but for now this is what I could find)
  • Xtra: British media is increasingly transphobic. Here’s why
  • Them: Meet the Trans Storytellers Fighting British Transphobia (subtitle calls Britain's press "virulently transphobic")
  • PinkNews: Journalist Juliet Jacques on how UK media is trying to ‘crush’ trans people: ‘We’re not in control’
  • Gay Times: Meet the journalist navigating Britain’s anti-trans press
  • USAToday: The Roots of Anti-Trans Feminism in the U.K.
  • Vice: The UK Is So Transphobic That Some Trans People Are Leaving
  • Insider: The BBC and The Times are accused of stoking a 'moral panic' against the trans community

  Loki (talk) 21:42, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  I checked 1, 2, 3, 4 are general critiques that doesn't mention The Telegraph, could you elaborate? General critiques of the media doesn't seem to be evidence in downgrading The Telegraph specifically. Moreover, Insider is a marginally reliable source. VickKiang (talk) 21:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  The Telegraph is definitely part of the UK mainstream press which all these articles criticize. Also, picking out one of a list of nine sources as marginally reliable I don't think is a reasonable tactic. Loki (talk) 23:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  The Telegraph is definitely part of the UK mainstream press which all these articles criticize. That you are inferring and drawing a conclusion not directly implied by the sources seem inaccurate to me. And by the way Vice is also marginally reliable. VickKiang (talk) 23:43, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Additionally, this is a community piece, not a piece published by the staff or editorial members. Worth pointing it out IMO. VickKiang (talk) 23:45, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 - I see nothing wrong with the Telegraph's coverage of transgender issues. Have they made any factual errors? I haven't seen any. Korny O'Near (talk) 21:36, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2 The Telegraph is occasionally factually incorrect about transgender issues, and always has a transphobic bias even in otherwise correct reporting.

From news sources

They made false claims that Mermaids was under investigation by the charity commision.(1)

Their coverage of transgender people is overwhelmingly negative (2, 3, 4, 5)

They have used the slur "tranny" in a headline (6) (Removed because it is from Sydney not UK telegraph)

Their headlines are often discriminatory transphobic clickbait (7, 8)

They frequently phrase things in terms of the "transgender debate" (see also, the jewish question, the negro question, etc, when a demographic is a "debate" or a "question" things aren't going well) (9)

Their reporting on the NHS and trans rights was described by IPSO, their regulator, as innacurate and they were reprimanded for it. (10)

From scholarly sources

Montiel McCann 2022: Applying a feminist critical discourse approach (Michelle M. Lazar 2005), I expose how hegemonic femininity is reproduced by broadsheets with an allegiance to the right-wing British Conservative (Tory) government—The Times and The Telegraph—to “other” trans identities and, therefore, justify discourses of anti-trans discrimination. (Thanks to Newimpartial for bringing it up)

Fae 2022: Second up? This would be the story that the Cass Review – an inquiry into trans healthcare – has re-issued and doubled down on a recommendation it made a few months back, that the NHS wind up the Tavistock Clinic, at present the only facility in the UK providing support and healthcare for trans youth. Awful news for the trans community, you’d think, and the usual suspects were there to gloat. The Daily Telegraph unleashed at least four articles on the topic in two days. The Times went sensational, with a piece headlined “Tavistock gender clinic forced to shut over safety fears”. The all too predictable narrative: treatment of trans kids is speculative and wrong. And it is now being closed down for good. The problem is that this narrative was almost entirely false... The closure was broadly welcomed in the trans community, not least because the youth service is to continue, in the form of de-centralised local services. The exact solution that trans folk have been asking for since pretty much forever. About the only news outlet to report the story accurately was Pink News, under the heading “NHS Tavistock youth gender clinic to be replaced under sweeping trans healthcare reforms”. ...Bailey herself tweeted, saying: “I have lost my case against Stonewall.” Much rejoicing in the trans community. Which is why the mainstream media reported it as, er, a defeat for Stonewall! No, honestly. Fringe commentator Unherd reported “How Allison Bailey crushed Stonewall”. An interesting verdict, given that Stonewall was so comprehensively exonerated. The Telegraph went with “Barrister wins discrimination case against Stonewall”. Well, that was their first attempt, though after the inevitable complaints, they amended it to “Allison Bailey was unlawfully victimised for opposing Stonewall’s ‘trans extremism’, tribunal rules”, although the URL for the piece still reflects the initial headline.

Pearce, Erikainen, & Vincent 2020: In the UK, ‘gender critical’ opinion pieces are regularly published in both left- and right-leaning outlets including The Observer, The Guardian, the Daily Telegraph and The Mail on Sunday. A Google search for articles on ‘transgender’ published in The Times in 2018 alone yields approximately 230 results, with headlines such as ‘Girl Guide leaders expelled for questioning trans policy’ and ‘Picking and choosing gender is demonic, writes churchman’. Multiple ‘gender critical’ events have also taken place in the UK Parliament and the Scottish Parliament, hosted variously by Conservative, Labour and Scottish National Party politicians.

Pearce 2020: During my first month of fieldwork, a public debate took place across numerous media platforms over the value and limits of free speech with respect to commentary on trans issues. A particularly inflammatory column by journalist Julie Burchill was published in the Observer, entitled ‘Transsexuals should cut it out’. The Observer’s editor rapidly pulled the piece and issued an apology following a wave of complaints from readers; the article was subsequently re-published in the Telegraph. I wrote: I find it utterly impossible to maintain any kind of objective distance from all this. The Telegraph’s actions genuinely hurt at a gut level. Part of this came from anger at the idea that they consider it so important to ensure that Burchill’s diatribe retains a high-profile media platform, but part of it also came from fear upon seeing the Telegraph’s reader comments. [. . .] The comments were full of such powerful hatred. They would deny us our civil rights, our dignity, our access to medical care. (Fieldwork diary, 15 January 2013) (Auto-ethnographical perspective from a trans researcher)TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:11, 11 November 2022 (UTC)TheTranarchist

Some of your evidence are solid, others less so. it's worth noting that per WP:HEADLINES headlines are automatically unreliable, so it's not relevant here. This source you linked outlines that it's right-leaning, reflective of WP:BIASED, and critiques some headlines, but this doesn't seem to be criticising it as unreliable. Moreover, one of the sources linked, Left Voice, is a revolutionary socialist news site and magazine dedicated to fostering a sustained and strategic struggle against every form of capitalist exploitation and oppression. I'm unsure that a revolutionary site would also have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy to be considered as WP:RS. VickKiang (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

When I checked the Reliable Sources Archives I couldn't find any discussions surrounding Leftvoice and whether they're reliable or not. I was unsure if it was considered acceptable or not but opted with innocent until proven guilty. However, I don't see how a revolutionary socialist news site and magazine dedicated to fostering a sustained and strategic struggle against every form of capitalist exploitation and oppression directly implies it's unreliable. WP:BIASED also covers that. If anything, revolutionary news sites have more of an incentive to accurately cover things than media controlled by the rich and powerful. Trotskyism aside, I've seen a lot of good factual reporting from them.

In terms of WP:HEADLINES, the articles I cited also touch on how they use transphobic language throughout the article rather than just the headline, which I should have made more clear. Also, while headlines are generally unreliable, the fact that they use transphobic clickbait titles specifically points to an underlying issue of bias in the source in the topic area.

For the source describing them as "right-leaning", the article discusses gender-critical bias in the media in depth and the bias and unreliablility of those positions, noting the telegraph as an example of a news publication that platforms them.

Overall, I find the telegraph incredibly biased but not overtly wrong most of time. However, when it comes to transgender topics, we should note they have a history of transphobic bias and occasional inaccurate reporting on transgender topics. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:13, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

When I checked the Reliable Sources Archives I couldn't find any discussions surrounding Leftvoice and whether they're reliable or not. I was unsure if it was considered acceptable or not but opted with innocent until proven guilty. There is no guideline whatsoever stating that undiscussed sources should be assumed to reliable. If so, should we assume an undiscussed blog to be innocent? Trotskyism aside, I've seen a lot of good factual reporting from them- I don't think your personal liking of that source would result it to be reliable. Either show a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy through editorial policies, or alternatively that the authors are subject-matter-experts, WP:USEBYOTHERS could be fine. Moreover, For the source describing them as "right-leaning", the article discusses gender-critical bias in the media in depth and the bias and unreliablility of those positions, noting the telegraph as an example of a news publication that platforms them- this source you linked discusses ‘Gender critical’ accounts but I don't think generalising criticism on other areas to support this reference's occasional accuracy is the most convicing. VickKiang (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@TheTranarchist: As a note, this RfC is about the U.K. broadsheet, not the Australian tabloid. The coverage about the slur in the headline is very clearly about the Australian tabloid. Please strike that line from your comment. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 22:31, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Red-tailed hawk: A good catch. That refers to The Daily Telegraph (Sydney), a low-quality tabloid. IMO the headline examples and the examples about the tabloid are irrelevant. Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 22:33, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I'll break down every news and scholarly source you give, and address the claims of factual unreliability:

• IntoMore

• Telegraph's claim that Mermaids was being investigated: that's not false. The headline calls it an "investigation", while the body of the article makes it clear that it's a "regulatory compliance case". PinkNews disputes that it's "a formal investigation". That's not a debunking, it's a semantic argument. The Telegraph's reporting was factual here.
• The Telegraph's other claims (lack of parental consent, a Mermaids trustee speaking to a pedophile support group and then resigning) aren't disputed, and seem accurate.

• LeftVoice

• This talks about "transphobic editorials" at the Telegraph. Nothing to do with their news reporting's factual accuracy.

• HuffPo

• This talks about "transphobic dog whistles" used by the Telegraph, and links to an opinion piece. Again, nothing whatsoever to do with factual reporting.

• PinkNews 1

• This piece condemns The Telegraph for op-eds, and for reporting on a politician's anti-trans comment. I'm unimpressed.

• PinkNews 2 and PinkNews 3

• Criticism of the headline isn't relevant, per WP:HEADLINE. This RFC is solely focused on the factual reliability of article contents.

• GayTimes

• GayTimes criticizes one Telegraph op-ed; and one news article. The news article covers research by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, commissioned to London's City University. The Telegraph attributes "fears" over "freedom of expression" to a few academics who describe being harassed; they don't make claims in their own voice, and I find no factual inaccuracies in the Telegraph piece.
• Re: "the transgender debate" being equivalent to "the Jewish question": that's a highly offensive comparison. The Jewish question refers to Jews' right to exist. "Trans debate" was only used by Telegraph in the headline, so is irrelevant for our purposes. I'll note that "trans debate" usually refers to: 'what society should do when it comes to trans issues'. Calling it a debate is factual, and many people (including trans people & academics) disagree on how society should best accomodate trans people. That's not to say there aren't bigots, but to imply it's a genocidal dog whistle on par with 'the Jewish question' is utter bunk and worthy of condemnation.

• The IPSO report:

• Now, we get to the meat of the matter. The Telegraph issued two news stories in print, which were combined into one article online. They were reported to the media watchdog by a trans advocacy group, for a factual inaccuracy about a legal matter (which was incidental to the story). They issued a correction.
• IPSO found that the correction was made "promptly and with due prominence", and were satisfied by the Telegraph's response. Though IPSO sided with the advocacy group on one inaccuracy, they disputed the group's numerous other claims of inaccuracy in the article.

Now to the research:

• Montiel McCann 2022: I've already responded to Newimpartial above; I'll also note that as Red hawk says, it doesn't allege factual inaccuracies, just a "lack of trans voices" in media.
• Fae 2022: though it was published in a journal, that's an opinion piece, not a study.
• Pearce, Erikainen, & Vincent 2020: that criticizes opinion pieces in a single passing comment; not pertinent
• Pearce 2020: that's again about an opinion article.

So, while I'm grateful you provide many links, "there's no there there". DFlhb (talk) 23:14, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

The "transgender debate" is absolutely a dog whistle and it's an apt comparison. Quoting from the article on the jewish question: The Jewish question, also referred to as the Jewish problem, was a wide-ranging debate in 19th- and 20th-century European society that pertained to the appropriate status and treatment of Jews. The debate, which was similar to other "national questions", dealt with the civil, legal, national, and political status of Jews as a minority within society, particularly in Europe during the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. In regards to calling it a debate is factual, that doesn't mean the fact there's a "debate" isn't an issue.

In regards to I'll note that "trans debate" usually refers to: 'what society should do when it comes to trans issues'., one could say the "jewish question" usually refers to: 'what society should do when it comes to jewish issues'. The key issues in the "trans debate" are usually things like: should the government legally recognize the existence of transgender people, enforce non-discrimination protections (especially in public spaces), or let them live in society with the full rights of other citizens.

The use of "jewish question" in historical sources does not imply a source is calling for outright extermination any more than the "transgender debate" does. The issue is the larger cultural framing where the existence and rights of a demographic are posed as a debate or question that needs to be discussed.

Sidenote, I have friends who are trans and jewish who have brought up the connection between the framings. Also seen trans and jewish accounts I follow make the comparison. Or is it still utter bunk and worthy of condemnation when they say it? TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:04, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I have friends who are trans and jewish I am both, and yes, it's condemnable. I'll stay high-level because this has nothing to do with the RFC, but: debates on the legal status of Jews, or trans people, involve discrimination. You said The Telegraph frequently phrase[s] things in terms of the "transgender debate", and claim that's equivalent to the "Jewish question" (i.e. right to exist). The Telegraph was using "debate" (only in its headline, not in the article) to refer to the entire nationwide conversation between TERFS, trans people, and everyone in between; not to refer to a debate about trans people's legal status or right to exist, and not to refer specifically to TERFS. You were putting one of the UK's two newspaper of record on the same level as stuff like Der Stürmer. I realize hyperbole is hugely present online, and that many of your friends may think like this, but I humbly suggest you take a step back from it and see if you really find it rational. DFlhb (talk) 00:37, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I've had this discussion in the past w.r.t. other articles. People who use the term Jewish question nowadays usually are doing it because it implicitly invokes Hitler's final solution to the Jewish question and do it as a dogwhistle such as by saying "JQ".[64] [65]

You can't really make that comparison to the term "transgender debate" because as far as I'm aware, no world leader created & enacted a plan called the "final answer to the transgender debate" in which all transgender people within a geographic area would be murdered. The claim that some of your friends are Jewish and so you can make this comparison here is a logical fallacy. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 05:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

@Chess:, @DFlhb:

1) The "jewish question" and it's framing of the right to exist does not shed the full light on the situation. The "jewish question" was not just "should we genocide the jews", it was "should we give them rights, if so, which and which not". The "final solution" was only the Nazi's answer to the question, as the "jewish question" as a linguistic cultural framing existed before the Nazis. To help illustrate this divide between the "jewish question" as a debate which existed, a modern dogwhistle, and the "final solution", the article for it states According to Otto Dov Kulka of Hebrew University, the term became widespread in the 19th century when it was used in discussions about Jewish emancipation in Germany (Judenfrage). In the 19th century hundreds of tractates, pamphlets, newspaper articles and books were written on the subject, with many offering such solutions as resettlement, deportation, or assimilation of the Jewish population. Similarly, hundreds of works were written opposing these solutions and offering instead solutions such as re-integration and education.. In short, the "jewish question" was the "debate" playing out in media over whether jews should have rights, not a reference to a particular answer, though the existence of a debate necessarily implies those for and against.

2) The Gay City News Article referenced discuss LGBT reactions to posing rights as a "debate", which the vast majority of survey respondents found harmful. The link between the "jewish question" and "trans debate" is the fact that the media has framed the rights of a minority as a debate to be had and settled. Key to a debate, their are two sides, namely should people have rights, or not.

3) The telegraph article itself that used the term "trans debate" (one of many, I should add), states The equalities watchdog has launched a study into the sex versus gender row amid fears that the abuse of feminist academics by trans activists is harming freedom of expression and a vicious debate between those who believe biological sex cannot be changed, known as "gender-critical" views, and trans activists who argue that men who identify as women should be legally recognised as female. and Baroness Falkner of Margravine, the EHRC chairman, has recognised there is "genuine public concern" that women's and transgender rights can be in conflict. In all of these, the debate is framed as between feminists (who support women's rights by opposing trans rights) and the trans activists who speak up against them (who just want rights and to be left alone but are framed in a negative light and their arguments strawmanned), saying transgender rights are dangerous for other people, and the article overwhelmingly takes the side of the gender-critical camp. A quick search on google finds 129 articles by the telegraph referencing the "trans debate" or "transgender debate".

4) I have only heard the "transgender debate" used in real life by those staunchly opposed to transgender rights. In the media, a source saying "the transgender debate" almost always betrays a position opposed to transgender rights. The entire nationwide conversation between TERFS, trans people, and everyone in between is in fact a debate about trans people's legal status or right to exist

5) In terms of the "final solution", which I re-iterate is not 1-1 with the "jewish question", at the moment there is no equivalent (for a start, genocide against ethnic vs gender minorities takes different forms, since eradicating an ethnic community is a different issue than eradicating trans communities because transgender people can continue to be born by those who aren't). But two things play into that. 1) The Nazis also sent transgender and LGBT people to the concentration camps, but did not debate or make a big deal of them in the media beforehand. The existence of the "X debate" is not a 1-1 connection with genocide. 2) People referencing the "transgender debate" have formed answers like, off the top of my head: forcibly detransition all transgender youth, make it more difficult for transgender people to change their name and gender and thus participate civically as cisgender people can, make it a crime to discuss transgender issues or support in higher education, make it a crime for transgender people to use public facilities because cis people might feel threatened, decry transgender people as an infectious ideology that needs to be stopped, and take transgender youth away from supportive parents to place them with unsupportive ones. (See Marjorie Taylor Greene's federal bill and the situation in Texas). In short, transgender people's rights to exist in the public sphere, have their existence recognized, and define their own community and continuity of knowledge. Has the answer been "kill them all" yet? Apart from the most unhinged far-right elements, no, and even then they'll usually just attack the "grooming" adults to "protect the children". Overall, the debate has been "should transgender people be allowed to exist here with the same rights as everyone else", with no as a frequent answer.

6)In short, the "transgender debate" and "jewish question" are both references to an existing media debate over what extent a minority should have the same rights as everyone else. The "jewish question", while inextricably linked with the "final solution", is not 1-1 with it, as there were those who called for reactionary but not outright genocidal answers to it. As in the modern situation. The existence of the "debate" is factual, but how it's framed and used often betrays the publication's biases. A sidenote, I am in fact writing a research paper on the rise and fall of transgender rights from Weimar Republic to Nazi rule, and in fascist states more broadly, and similarities and differences with the modern trans situation in the U.S. in terms of media/cultural framing, legal rights, and medical rights, so this is an area I have extensively studied. I do not feel my comparison is hyperbole or irrational, rather a critical analysis of common rhetorical tactics used to oppose people's rights, namely the persistent framing of attacks on people's rights as a "debate" and widespread media discussions which use this framing. I am not comparing "Der Stürmer" to "The Telegraph", as neither was the only voice speaking of the "X question", merely speaking to the existence and implications of widespread media coverage from all ranges of the political spectrum posing minority rights as a debate/question. There's other work I plan to do on Wikipedia today but I hope this clarifies my argument and positions. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:37, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm a bit in the weeds here, but I think the "X Question" issue is a red herring. Basically every national movement of the 19th-20th century was framed in terms of "X Question": see German question, Polish question, Irish question, Romanian Question Austrian question, Italian question, English question, Czech question, Russian question, Spanish question,Turkish question, Finnish question. It's archaic terminology, but not inherently offensive, although I'd readily concede that the misconception that asking national questions leads to final solutions is widespread. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:06, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 and a trout to the person who started this nonsense.47.160.161.90 (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. I agree with the comment above. No evidence has been given to substantiate these RfCs. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1, per my extensive (and time-consuming) analysis of the arguments provided for unreliability, which people can see above by searching my name. I do think WP:SNOWBALL applies here. DFlhb (talk) 23:16, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  How can SNOWBALL apply when the !votes are divided? Asking for a friend. :) Newimpartial (talk) 00:22, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Guess you're right :) DFlhb (talk) 01:22, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: This is one part I agree with you, WP:SNOW probably won't apply at those RfCs, even though the result currently leans towards Option 1. VickKiang (talk) 01:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: Separate to the question of reliability is the question of bias, which some assert, and some dismiss as constrained to op-eds. But I think option 1 supporters should more clarify whether they consider the factual reporting biased or unbiased. I also invite option 2/3 supporters to provide evidence of bias in specifically the news coverage, by linking us to specific articles they feel are biased, rather than by using academic sources that are commenting on the op-eds. I've yet to see arguments of ideological or opinionated bias in the news coverage, and would like to see individual examples. DFlhb (talk) 01:22, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 as I explained in the previous comments here. The Telegraph (UK) is a credible newspaper of record. I acknowledge WP:DUE concerns, it should not be used at all for WP:MEDRS claims, and Colin as well as Andrevan raises good comments on its bias, IMO The Telegraph is slightly more conservative compared to The Economist or The Times. However, I currently see insufficient evidence of repeated inaccuracies and misleading statements in news sections that would push this towards marginally reliable or generally unreliable, though if more references demonstrating that are found do ping me. VickKiang (talk) 01:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 It seems some don't like how they cover the topic but that doesn't mean the coverage isn't reliable. Of course the reliability of any specific article can be questioned even if the source is considered generally reliable on the topic. IE, treat it as we treat any other generally reliable source. Springee (talk) 04:59, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 As with the Times discussion, no real attempt has been made to prove factual unreliability, which is what we need to see. We don't state sources are unreliable because of their biases, the articles linked above show convincingly that the Telegraph opposes the expansion of trans-rights, and that trans-advocates consider its editorial line to be transphobic. But they do not show a higher level of factual inaccuracy on this topic than is displayed in the paper's general output. Ergo, it can not be considered unreliable on this topic. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 A standard quality WP:NEWSORG with editorial oversight. Nothing unreliable here and no evidence for unreliability has been provided. I do hope this isn't another WP:POINT of going after right-leaning sources again (But I AGF and assume it is not). The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 08:36, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  @The C of E: The person who nominated this wants it to be declared reliable. They are WP:FORUMSHOPPING from the discussion on Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. (Or in other words: yes this is WP:POINTy but in the opposite direction you think.) Loki (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 3 In case it isn't clear from my comments. The Telegraph reports on trans issues in much the same way as we see Covid cranks, HIV-deniers, MMR-autism promoters, where the mainstream is considered extreme and where fringe voices are the only one's heard and where interviewing actual doctors or actual trans people is a weird idea, when one could instead interview and give platform to some random person who started a pressure group. Using The Telegraph, on trans issues, is a textbook example of WP:RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS with editors frequently push statements sourced to them while denying WP:VNOT. -- Colin°^Talk 11:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Judging non-wikipedia sources by wikipedia policies is not helpful. The Telegraph is not a collaborative encyclopaedia and so our rules on tendencious editing are completely irrelevant. We could equally apply WP:RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS to the Pink News coverage of Trans issues, and we would be equally wrong to do so. The difference between the Telegraph's standpoint and the conspiracy theories that you name is that they are arguing about the social desirability of certain activities and legal situations relating to trans-issues, rather than arguing against the existence scientific facts. That doesn't mean there is no case that their positions are bigoted, but it doesn't make the information they publish factually wrong. Boynamedsue (talk) 12:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Boynamedsue, I realised I didn't word that sentence correctly. I missed of "Using" to the start of it and have now added that. You are right, I'm not judging the telegraph by our policies, I'm judging the editors. If the Telegraph was arguing about social or legal matters then that might be fair ground for them, but they are specifically discussing a medical professional organisation, medical consensus guidelines and in the case of the clinic in the photograph, an NHS medical facility that campaigners want closed down. None of those things are social or legal. They are medical. We have editors, in the linked case, arguing we must include viewpoints on medical guidelines coming from fringe lobby groups who have no medical training and are not representing any significant viewpoint in the medical profession. They are a political feminist organisation. This is like saying our Covid articles must include a statement that its viral cause is "controversial" because some people think it is caused by 5G. I do think the Telegraph is factually wrong on that. If they were being factually correct, they would acknowledge the mainstream aspect of the organisation, guidelines and clinic and make it clear that it is a minority and non-medical view that is being vocalised by For Woman Scotland. I think they are factually wrong in which group they label "extreme", and its factual incorrectness is demonstrated if you read reliable sources on the matter, or indeed, our own Wikipedia article. -- Colin°^Talk 13:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I tend to disagree, this is querying medical practice as it exists in a particular place and time, rather than querying scientifically proven facts such as the existence of viral coronavirus and the effectiveness of a vaccine in creating antibodies. The transgender debate clearly has a social aspect around which debate is legitimate, the situation is more similar to that which occurred around the desirability and effectiveness of the various anti-covid measures. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:07, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. I waited until examples of claimed false reporting were presented. DFlhb's summary above matches what I found in reviewing them. The most serious – an IPSO ruling – concluded that "The published correction put the correct position on record and was offered and published promptly and with due prominence. No further action was required" (the other complaints were not upheld). This is in accordance with standard practice. Not liking what a source publishes is very different from demonstrating that a source is problematic. The latter hasn't been done for this source. EddieHugh (talk) 12:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X: Scrap RfC. This seems to be a case of someone asking a question on which they favor the status quo, without presenting any of the arguments that have been given elsewhere against the status quo, to drum up easy !votes on their side. Any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Telegraph on trans topics. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
  • I don’t understand this objection… summaries and arguments for/against the use of a source are supposed to be placed in the discussion section of an RFC… and this discussion contains several of such summaries. Blueboar (talk) 15:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

    I think the point is it should begin with a clearly laid out set of reasons why their reliability in this domain is contested. This was always going to be an uphill battle given (a) the number of editors who want to use the Telegraph because it supports their POV on the matter and (b) the number of editors who have no idea that the Telegraph has completely lost the plot when it comes to trans issues. -- Colin°^Talk 19:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

There is no obligation to begin with a summary of the doubts around a source, I have even been told off for doing so in the past. Do you feel that the problems you perceive with this source are still not outlined here? --Boynamedsue (talk) 22:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Per the edit notice to this noticeboard titled Before posting, please be sure to include any of the following information that is available:, editors should include context on 2. Article. The Wikipedia article(s) in which it is being used. For example: [[Article name]]. and 3. Content. The exact statement(s) or other content in the article that the source is supporting. Please supply a WP:DIFF or put the content inside block quotes. Many sources are reliable for statement "X" but unreliable for statement "Y". That information was available to gnu57 prior to posting this, as evidenced by the related discussion on LBC News. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I would like to point out that numerous recent RfCs, including the Fox News RfC this year at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 385, ANNA News at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 371, had this structure with no context. In contrast, others, e.g., Insider at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 381 and Jacobin at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 351, had some context, and I think both are reasonable. VickKiang (talk) 22:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

The Fox News RfC included in its filing the context on the past discussions involving that source, and an evidence base in support of its unreliability. You are correct though that the ANNA News RfC lacked context, though some was added twenty minutes after filing by the OP. However while there are undoubtedly examples of previous discussions being filed without context, it does not prevent it from being a valid criticism of how this set of discussions were opened.

In this particular filing, context is incredibly important. As can be demonstrated by the very swift replies of "reliable, it's a newspaper of record", there are as Colin has pointed out a great number of editors who have no idea just how unreliable The Telegraph has become with regards to reporting on transgender issues in the last 5/10 years. Both the Telegraph and Times are currently publishing at least one anti-trans article, per day, and have been doing so since at least 2019/20. Filtering through that rather large pile of articles, cross-referencing that against reporting from other sources, and checking archival versions for articles that have been subtly or not so subtly altered post-publication takes time. It also takes time to find, access, read, and assess what other reliable sources (both media and academic) have been saying about these publications so that their findings can also be presented.

While there are several editors here who have been preparing for a discussion on the Times and Telegraph, including myself, none of us were prepared for it to be sprung without notice, and without the context necessary for those uninvolved in this content area to understand the nature and scope of the problem. As such we have all been put on the back foot by this, and now face a much harder challenge of informing and convincing other editors as to the problem when it comes to these sources. Tamzin's interpretation of this as a case of someone asking a question on which they favor the status quo, without presenting any of the arguments that have been given elsewhere against the status quo, to drum up easy !votes on their side is a charitable one, as there are far more cynical alternatives both within and without the realm of WP:AGF. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:22, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

In fact in this very noticeboard previously I've already addressed some editors' concerns with the CNN ref at here. It would really be beneficial in providing new references rather than repeating the same point over again. Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 23:28, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I've cited the CNN source to verify a statement by Shon Faye, a subject-matter expert, who has said of the Times and Sunday Times over 300 articles, almost one a day, and they were all negative. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:00, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

P.S. I am frankly unconvinced by that Filtering through that rather large pile of articles, cross-referencing that against reporting from other sources, and checking archival versions for articles that have been subtly or not so subtly altered post-publication takes time. It also takes time to find, access, read, and assess what other reliable sources (both media and academic) have been saying about these publications so that their findings can also be presented. Concerns on a WP:SNOW close have been refuted, I disagree with that and multiple later Option 1 voters does not agree with that close. If that is the case, this RfC will be open for a month. I'm certain that those Option 2/3/X voters would find sufficient time to provide at least some evidence instead of repeating the same references over and over again. However, if you do manage to assemble a list that would be significantly more convincing than the weak ones at the relevant talk pages and Newimpartial's talk page, I'd be then content to amend my vote. Until then I will respectfully disagree. VickKiang (talk) 23:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not addressing the SNOW close calls, so please do not straw-man that as my argument.

When I said filtering through the articles takes time, I meant on the order of several months. My current plan was to make two RfCs on the reliability of the Times and Telegraph sometime in January/February 2023. When looking at a 5 year period, there are thousands of anti-trans articles published between these two papers that need to be sorted, and the most egregious cases of misinformation identified. I don't know of Newimpartial's or TheTranarchist's timescales, but I suspect given comments elsewhere they were also looking at this discussion taking place some time early next year. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

When looking at a 5 year period, there are thousands of anti-trans articles published between these two papers that need to be sorted, and the most egregious cases of misinformation identified. Again, I find it quite unconvincing that, on one hand you state that you all who vote Option 2/3/X require more time, in contrast, on the other hand you continue to make these sweeping claims of thousands of anti-trans articles... while refusing to provide any evidence that supports this. VickKiang (talk) 00:09, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

So, for context, here's just articles that have been published in the past week: [66] [67] [68] [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74]. (And out of these, there's only one of them that's unambiguously pro-trans, and several that are unambiguously anti-trans.) As they've been doing this for several years now, it'd be very surprising to me if there weren't over a thousand articles like this. Loki (talk) 00:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

To add to Loki's list of 9 articles published by The Telegraph in the last week, The Times have published 19 articles that contain the word "transgender" in that same time period. According to the same search page, they have published 795 articles in the last twelve months. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:39, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

there's only one of them that's unambiguously pro-trans, and several that are unambiguously anti-trans- Of course, I fully acknowledge that this is not your intent when you wrote the message, so I'm not WP:STRAWMAN or WP:IDHT here IMO. However, I don't see necessarily one-pro trans article whereas several anti-trans article is enough to not only assert WP:BIASED but unreliability in the topic from my view. Of course, I'm not saying that you are suggesting this, it's just my observation. VickKiang (talk) 01:13, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

The point that Loki and I have made here is one of scale. Ask yourself, how long would it take you to just read all 795 of those articles The Times have published in the last twelve months. Not even to eliminate those that just contain the word "transgender" and are otherwise unrelated, or remove those which are covered under RSOPINION. How long to just read them? Now imagine you're having to do this for two papers, and at least five years worth of such articles. Even if you're doing nothing else, this is months of work just to read those articles. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

If it is indeed marginally reliable on WP:QS like, the latter being have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest on the topic, I'd imagine that even going through the first 100 articles you'd be able to find articles that demonstrate this is unreliable or misleading. Going through 795 articles and finding a couple that might be obviously misleading doesn't seem to indicate that a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy in this topic would be violated. And additionally, I already said that Of course, I fully acknowledge that this is not your intent when you wrote the message, I'm not attempting to contradict Loki's statement. VickKiang (talk) 01:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I'd imagine that even going through the first 100 articles you'd be able to find articles that demonstrate this is unreliable or misleading. It's not that easy. Remember that my goal is to convince other uninvolved editors that this source is unreliable. I can't just pick from the 100 most recent articles, because that would at best cover a short time period (2 or 3 months), and some of the best and most convincing examples may have been published 6, 12, or 18 months ago.

From the work I've already done, some of my stronger examples are from 2020 and 2021, in no small part because I've yet to read all of this year's content. But I also know from some of the past discussions on this noticeboard that these examples, on their own, are not enough to convince otherwise uninvolved editors of the problem. Like you've already illuded to, picking a handful of obviously misleading articles does not indicated that a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy is absent. I and the other editors need to present a breadth of articles, that demonstrate the scale of this problem. That takes time. Time we sadly seem to no longer have. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

That's a solid point, I stand by my vote but might change mind if solid evidence are provided, preferably even stronger than those generally well-done, numerous examples in the Fox News RfC, many thanks for your comments! VickKiang (talk) 02:00, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I'd recommend against going for breadth; in my experience from past discussions (not on trans topics), that's usually used to hide deficiencies in arguments, and turns an ironclad case into more of a gishgallop. I'd pick the 5 strongest, best examples you have, to avoid people finding that one article isn't as biased as claimed, and dismissing the others. DFlhb (talk) 04:17, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Ask yourself, how long would it take you to just read all 795 of those articles The Times have published in the last twelve months

Nobody's asking for you to spend a week reviewing proving that 795 articles are flawed. Usually for RSN RFCs, editors can easily point to a piece or two that contain factual inaccuracies. Five pieces and the RFC has a change of succeeding. Apparently this debate came from a prior discussion on a talk page, where the sources were claimed to be biased. Well, why not post them here? DFlhb (talk) 04:13, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

In this particular filing, context is incredibly important. As can be demonstrated by the very swift replies of "reliable, it's a newspaper of record", there are as Colin has pointed out a great number of editors who have no idea just how unreliable The Telegraph has become with regards to reporting on transgender issues in the last 5/10 years. I should note in these discussions numerous Option 1 voters have refuted sources provided, e.g., Chess, Red-tailed hawk, DFlhb, Masem, and myself but some votes are hasty and without much expalanation. In contrast, some of the Option 2/3/X votes, e.g., Newimpartial, LokiTheLiar , and yourself provide detailed reasons, whereas some others make more vague assertions of unreliability and WP:FORUMSHOP. Therefore, I object to a statement that most of the Option 1 editors lack sufficient competence, familiarity, and knowledge to be participating on this topic. Many thanks. VickKiang (talk) 23:41, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Please strike lack sufficient competence, familiarity, and knowledge to be participating on this topic as I have not said that. What I have said is that many editors are unfamiliar with how unreliable the Telegraph and Times have become when reporting on trans issues, in relation to their editorial bias. That is not a controversial statement, and it is a self-evident one. Both papers are putting out at least one anti-trans article every day, sometimes several, resulting in hundreds every year. Unless you are reading all of them, you are likely not going to be familiar with the scale of the problem. And unless you're reading all of them, and cross-referencing against other reporting, you're likely not going to be familiar with the nature of the problem. Please stop constructing straw-men about things I am not saying. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Unless you are reading all of them, you are likely not going to be familiar with the scale of the problem. And unless you're reading all of them, and cross-referencing against other reporting, you're likely not going to be familiar with the nature of the problem- why would persistent WP:BIAS be automatically indicative of unreliability is my question, which is not claimed by the CNN piece? VickKiang (talk) 23:59, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Because the editorial bias of these two publications is resulting in them publishing misleading and verifiably false information at scale. I have some examples of this, however it is not yet in a form I can present to this noticeboard. The reason why I've !voted for option X is because this RfC is too early.

I do not know why you're so stuck on the CNN piece, I have only used it to verify a single statement by a subject-matter expert, as to how many articles were published by The Times in 2019/20. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Like I said below, the CNN source fails to clarify at all whether the so-called 300+ articles are news, opinion. analysis, or commentary. I believe this RfC is treating news articles per the prompt, not opinion ones, which would fall under WP:RSOPINION. VickKiang (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Sure, and if my entire argument was predicated on this, you would have a point. However I am using this statement by Faye to illustrate the sheer scale of the task that is involved here. You said If that is the case, this RfC will be open for a month. however I am telling you that because of the sheer scale, that is not enough time for those of us who were mid-preparation for this RfC to finish our preparations. Simply identifying and reading all of the trans related articles published, by just one of those publications, in a single year, takes weeks. Cross-referencing that against other sources adds complexity. And there being two sources, both with the same anti-trans bias affecting their reliability, doubles all time estimates.

Even if I was commissioned to undertake this as a research paper as a full-time job, it would take months just to do the initial corpus search and cross-referencing. And that's before you add on even more time for searching for what other reliable sources (academic or media) have said, and searching for any reports issued by government select committies, IPSO, and similar NGOs Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

What I have said is that many editors are unfamiliar with how unreliable the Telegraph and Times have become when reporting on trans issues, in relation to their editorial bias. That is not a controversial statement, and it is a self-evident one.- frankly I don't think given the current consensus here that with how unreliable the Telegraph and Times have become when reporting on trans issues is as so-called "uncontroversial" as you state, and it is unreasonable to presume that all of these RfC participants are unfamiliar with these vague examples. It might be uncontroversial to you but not from my POV. VickKiang (talk) 00:01, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I haven't seen any editor allege "at least one anti-trans article every day". They say British outlets can publish one to two hundred articles about trans issues a year; not "anti-trans", just "about trans issues". That's an enormous difference.

And I'd still like a link to even a single article you feel is either biased or factually inaccurate. I don't want to concede either point without evidence, and none so far has convinced me. DFlhb (talk) 00:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Per the CNN piece: Shon Faye, trans advocate and author of "The Transgender Issue," told CNN. According to her analysis, in 2020 the Times and the Sunday Times published "over 300 articles, almost one a day, and they were all negative." According to research commissioned by Mermaids conducted by Professor Paul Baker, Lancaster University and submitted to the House of Commons Women and Equalities Select Committee, in 2018/19 the Times published 1230 articles (a rate of 3.37 articles per day), and the Telegraph published 813 (a rate of 2.23 articles per day). There are, quite literally, thousands of articles to sort through. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:22, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I do empathize with the work that is; it seems we have thoroughness and conscientiousness in common. DFlhb (talk) 04:20, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

The general stance of opinion pieces is not relevant when assessing the reliability of news. 2A01:4B00:9D42:6E00:4CED:61B9:CCE0:425A (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

In instances where a publication declares its policy intentions in editorials, and then platforms the same viewpoint while ignoring or caricaturing other perspectives in its news coverage, its editorial stance just might be relevant, particularly when assessing due inclusion of content in article space. Newimpartial (talk) 23:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Unless you are reading all of them, you are likely not going to be familiar with the scale of the problem. And unless you're reading all of them, and cross-referencing against other reporting, you're likely not going to be familiar with the nature of the problem. By the way (just an observation, not saying you are suggesting this) I doubt that anyone here excepting you will be reading 795 articles, including Option 1/2/3/X voters, but it's good for you to be thorough in your analysis. VickKiang (talk) 07:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that short replies lack thought, verbosity doesn't necessarily equal having put extra thought into something. Also swiftness of posting here gives no way of determining how much time went into that reply. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 00:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

ActivelyDisinterested Thank you for your note, apologies if my comment is inaccurate to you, I will strike it soon.

I should clarify that the CNN piece actually state When it comes to trans rights “polling shows that the public isn’t necessarily as hostile as the media, but the media [continues] to lead the conversation,” Shon Faye, trans advocate and author of “The Transgender Issue,” told CNN. According to her analysis, in 2020 the Times and the Sunday Times published “over 300 articles, almost one a day, and they were all negative.” CNN has reached out to both newspapers for comment. Note that: a) it expresses an interviewee's opinion, b) by over 300 articles it does not clarify whether it is a news piece, which is the area of debate set by this RfC, or opinion ones. Indeed, two paragraphs later CNN goes on to say In an essay for the Times decrying “wokeism” last November, Sky News presenter Trevor Phillips said: “The greatest tragedy in all of this is that the gurus of wokedom have persuaded thousands of idealistic young people who rightly want to change the world into supporting what is actually a deeply reactionary movement. The trans activists can only realize their aim of being able to enter spaces reserved for women by erasing the female sex.” But that is a commentary piece, not a news piece, therefore a sweeping statement on the over 300 articles is inaccurate. VickKiang (talk) 00:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

it should begin with a clearly laid out set of reasons why their reliability in this domain is contested

It cannot. See the pre-RFC Daily Dot discussion, which laid out a list of reasons; and the Daily Dot RFC which had to have neutral wording. The shouldn't contain arguments for a certain option. DFlhb (talk) 01:17, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

The question has to be neutral and brief. However the material in support of it provided by the filer does not. See the filing for the recent Fox News RfC. While the question was brief, it was accompanied by some 20kb of examples of that publication's bias and unreliability. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@DFlhb: @Sideswipe9th: Andrevan added it in below the discussion part in a section titled in a level 4 header of Status quo from WP:RSP and past RFCs, not the prompt/OP section. VickKiang (talk) 01:33, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

That is what I said yes. The question was brief and neutral. And it had a supporting section documenting the context from past discussions, and examples of its bias and unreliability. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:45, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Good point. Of course commenting problems in the survey/discussion section is perfectly fine, as long it's not in the original prompt. VickKiang (talk) 01:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Sure, I just want to avoid another situation like the Fox RFC that came right before. DFlhb (talk) 02:19, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Agree with this. VickKiang (talk) 02:27, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the RfC process and you may wish to read Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Statement should be neutral and brief. It is your job as someone replying to the RfC to give evidence supporting your position. It's not the job of anyone else, least of all the person creating the RfC. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 02:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X per Tamzin et al. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 14:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Bias is not a reliability issue. Adoring nanny (talk) 15:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X per Tamzin: in retrospect there's no way this RFC could have been neutral. The person who nominated this wants it to be declared reliable. They are WP:FORUMSHOPPING from the discussion on Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. They completely skipped WP:RFCBEFORE and instead tried to circumvent the local consensus there by coming here. Loki (talk) 18:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X This is just an attempt to go over the head of an existing talk page discussion and doing so in a misleading way by not presenting the context of what was being disputed in the first place. This was never a question on general reliability of the newspaper in question, but the reliability (and due weight) of a specific article. Silverseren^C 19:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Based on the timestamps, context was included in the form of the "Context: The Telegraph" section less than 6 hours after the RfC was posted. If the question elsewhere is about the due weight (and I assume that you mean 'accuracy', not 'reliability') of one article, that shouldn't be affected by the discussion here. EddieHugh (talk) 21:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1, no evidence of unreliability for facts has been presented. As for the claims that this RfC is forum shopping, many in these discussions have been arguing repeatedly, not just at the Standards of Care RfC but also at Talk:Mermaids (charity), Talk:LGB Alliance, and elsewhere, that these sources are actually unreliable and rejecting the consensuses documented at WP:RSP. They variously seem to expect us to take their word for it, or cite the same few op-eds and similar from 'progressive' American media complaining that British papers of record don't go all-in on their preferred policy of absolute gender self-identification. These complainants either need to stop making this disruptive argument or present a case to change the community's mind. After months they failed to do so, preferring to instead disregard RSP on individual talk pages, and so someone else started a discussion. They keep saying a discussion needs to happen, so let's have it. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X I agree with Tamzin that this RfC has not been presented in a way that encourages informed discussion. The context of the underlying discussions that lead to the snap creation of this RfC has been left out by the filer, which is interesting when you compare these three RfCs, with the related discussion on LBC News, also started by the filer. Uninvolved editors are being asked to ask blindly whether or not these sources are reliable in a specific context, without any information as to why they are being discussed as unreliable in that context. While I have been preparing for an eventual RfC on how the anti-trans bias of The Telegraph and The Times is impacting on their reliability in this context, and I've not been shy on stating that I'm preparing for such on relevant article talk pages, I am not yet ready to present this information in a clear and succinct manner that uninvolved editors will be able to follow, and will need time to formulate such a response. This is simply a premature filing of a discussion that requires a great deal more care than has been given× to it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  You literally have a month to respond to this RfC. Asking for an RfC with more than a dozen people to be rescheduled to some indefinite time in the future because you don't feel like getting your !vote ready isn't a valid point. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 23:44, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1/2 but I think it should not be logged at WP:RSP. Otherwise, we might be giving the impression that the source is particularly reliable about this topic, rather than just generally reliably genelist press. Which can also be summarized as Option X. MarioGom (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. The Telegraph isn't the paper it used to be , but is still reliable for reporting the facts. Opinion pieces, etc as per my comment for the Economist. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 23:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. A top tier source, and the fact that we need to have this discussion demonstrates why the RSN process needs to be overhauled or abandoned.

I note that editors opening an RFC are forbidden from presenting an arguments for or against the status quo as part of doing so, per WP:RFCNEUTRAL. BilledMammal (talk) 04:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

That is not true. -- Colin°^Talk 09:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I opened an RfC and was told that presenting a summary of the issue risked leading to a Bad RfC verdict, so I deleted. It is absolutely bonkers to claim something is procedurally wrong with the opening of these RfCs. Those who say that these sources are unreliable have had ample opportunity to present their arguments. Boynamedsue (talk) 10:45, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. No evidence has been provided of false reporting by this highly reputable source. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 08:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. I am in agreement that no evidence has been provided to support the claim that The Telegraph is not a reputable source and that it lacks factual reporting. (What I'm getting from this RfC -- and The Economist RfC -- is an attempt to attack and censor newspapers and magazines that don't kowtow to special interest groups.) Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 12:19, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Clearly a reliable source. The arguments presented above that it is not a reliable source on these topics are unpersuasive and misdirected, and the arguments that this RFC is procedurally improper are misconceived. This should be closed as WP:SNOW. The same rationale applies to the other two sources. Banks Irk (talk) 19:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  WP:SNOW clearly does not apply - please see my response to the equivalent vote concerning The Economist. Newimpartial (talk) 23:31, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2 At the very least, they're in the region where their reporting (editorial stance, selection of topics, choice of emphasis, etc.) should be considered biased. XOR'easter (talk) 23:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X This, along with the Economist and Times of London RFCs, is WP:FORUMSHOPPING. I will not dignify it with any response other than to close it. Bowler the Carmine | talk 02:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

FORUMSHOPPING: "Raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards and talk pages, or to multiple administrators or reviewers, or any one of these repetitively". Where else has this has been raised? I know of only one talk page; taking an RS matter from a talk page to here is common; it's not FORUMSHOPPING. EddieHugh (talk) 19:28, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1, there has been nothing presented to indicate that the factual reporting of the source is inaccurate. Perceived "bias" is not an RSN issue. However, in many cases this will cross into WP:MEDRS territory, and newspapers do not generally qualify where MEDRS applies, so that should also be kept in mind. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Same response as to The Economist above. DoubleCross (‡) 15:04, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: While I'm not going to delve into whether the Telegraph is reliable for transgender issues, its record on constitutional issues is appalling, so much so that there is an active hashtag #Let's talk about Camilla Tominey's voracious appetite for lying on social media.[75]. Mrs Tominey is an associate editor there and runs a subscription podcast so a lot of what she says is hidden. This has resulted in unacceptable bias in our article Wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. There are 184 inline citations. One is a 38-word quotation from Meghan explaining her philosophy, which is fair enough, but the 64-word negative quote from Mrs Tominey breaks all the rules on impartiality and reliability. According to her, after Meghan confirmed she was married on 16 May 2018 "those working for the Sussexes" announced she had been lying. Significantly, she did not provide the names of the people who allegedly made the statement or quote from it. 80.47.6.204 (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 I'm no fan of the Telegraph, and it definitely has a pronounced editorial bias (so much so that it is widely known as the Torygraph), but all papers have some sort of editorial slant, and that's why we have things like WP:BIASED and WP:RSEDITORIAL; its headlines are often clickbaity, but we've also got WP:HEADLINES. At the end of the day, whatever I think of its politics, it's a quality broadsheet with editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking, and I'd judge it as being as good as a news source can be for assertions of fact. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'll add to the above - by 'as good as a news source can be', I mean that it's obviously not OK for biomedical information, and even for stuff about science in general we shouldn't be going to newspapers. And I'll echo what MarioGom has said above - however this is closed, we shouldn't be giving the impression that the Telegraph is especially reliable in this area. It's merely generally reliable, in a newspapery sense, with the usual newspapery caveats. Girth Summit _(blether) 19:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  Is it an accurate statement of fact that the limits of gender-bending trans ideology are now being tested in sport? Or is it true that the parents of children who come out as transgender are rarely heard in this increasingly toxic debate? I don't think so (not to question the toxicity of the "debate", to which The Telegraph has undoubtedly contributed). Newimpartial (talk) 19:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: Those are statements of opinion, not fact. What is the underlying rule here that you seek to enforce? Any newspaper that has an article not supporting transgender women participating in women's sports should be banned? Or any newspaper that says parents should be informed if their children socially transitions are now unreliable? Is the goal of this RfC to make a determination of reliability or is it to designate The Daily Telegraph as an unreliable source because you want to keep these opinions from being mentioned in articles? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:25, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  I don't know why you seem determined to caricature (or even WP:STRAWMAN) my comments. I am not seeking to ban any source based on the opinions it expresses editorially or because it quotes a figure for any particular viewpoint. But that isn't what we have in these three sources: we have sources that consistently platform one side in a public policy controversy, including one-sided presentation of "facts" and platforming marginal perspectives on topics covered by WP:MEDRS. Then we have these same sources using loaded language in describing events and situations in their news coverage - not coincidentally, the same loaded language these outlets use in editorial and op-ed pieces.

  Your comment that Those are statements of opinion, not fact is not, I think, semantically true in these instances and in any cases seems tremendously naive. I can guarantee that, if these filings are closed as generally reliable without qualification, certain editors will absolutely insist that terms like "trans ideology" favored by these outlets be given a FALSEBALANCE treatment in article space that, if followed, would be in violation of WP:NPOV and WP:RS. I for one regard this as a predictable, but undesirable, outcome. Newimpartial (talk) 21:36, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: My !vote is not intended to support the use of terms such as "trans ideology" in WP:WikiVoice. While I can't really stop "certain editors" from advocating the use of loaded terminology, your position that this will necessarily happen from rating the Daily Telegraph as generally reliable isn't really a point. We're not discussing an issue on an article talk page here, but the general reliability or unreliability of a particular source. You seeking to designate this source as unreliable for any reason other than its unreliability isn't a policy-based rationale. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:45, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

  As noted elsewhere, I am a linguistic pragmatist; I am also pragmatic when it comes to other related matters. "Reliability" is used in Wikipedia policy and practice to mean at least three conceptually distinct things: (1) only making factual statements that are indeed factual, and correcting ones that are not; (2) offering coverage that contributes in a meaniful way to assessing the WP:BALANCE of RS on a topic and (3) using language that can be repeated in neutral wikivoice. The dispute that directly gave rise to this filing is mostly about (2); the areas where I have the most cobcerns are with (2) and with the intersection of (1) and (3) - such as where these sources select only extreme viewpoints on transgender topics to be the basis of their coverage, adopt the language of these extreme viewpoints as the language of their coverage, but report what their informants say in an "accurate" (albeit biased) way.

  You seem to be arguing that (2) and (3) are not policy-relevant aspects of reliability, but I have seen impacts on BALANCE and NPOV considered previously in this forum; the table of perennial sources expresses a number of such caveats (q.v., China Daily).. These most definitely are aspects of reliability as it is employed on Wikipedia, which is presumably the reason they came up this time as they have in prior discussions at RSN. Newimpartial (talk) 21:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

  You keep claiming that the viewpoints are "extreme" but you haven't really defined that term. What's your point here? That because WP:BALANCE mentions reliable sources, we must designate The Daily Telegraph as unreliable because otherwise articles would have to include anti-transgender opinions? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

  Please don't build any straw goats. Wikipedia articles do, and must continue to, include anti-trans opinions as attributed opinions. I don't object to that at all. But Wikipedia should not present anti-trans opinions as fact. In the same logic as the China Daily caveats I noted above, we have repeatedly run into issues where the only "RS" publications making statements on certain points are ones that clearly oppose any expansion of transgender rights and transgender healthcare access (these three and also LBC, about which gnu57 filed earlier). These publications also, not coincidentally, oppose the global medical consensus on transgender healthcare, and they often present generally held mainstream understandings (e.g., that transgender identity is not in itself mental illness) as though they were subject to "two sides" and presenting FRINGE beliefs (e.g., those promoted by Genspect and the SEBGM) as though they were widely held by experts and practitioners.

  This creates situations where only the partisan anti-trans sources bother to write about something, which leaves Wikipedia editors with real problems about NPOV and DUE. NPOV is particularly a problem, because certain editors will insist that only the biased language of the partisan sources can be used about "facts" that are only discussed in these sources. DUE and BALANCE are also problematic, because the criterion of the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources can be massively distorted by campaigns of exaggeration and one-sided coverage by these outlets. There simply are no mass-market publications, in the UK or elsewhere, that give mainstream WP:MEDRS perspectives on these issues the same "prominence" that these BIASEDSOURCES give to FRINGE perspectives. The result of this is that waves of editors arrive on Wikipedia prepared to right great wrongs by "correcting" Wikipedia articles to incorporate more of these activist anti-trans perspectives - and typically distort even what the anti-trans publications actually say in their own voice, making the statements put into wikivoice even more at odds with BALANCE and NPOV. (One clear example is this edit, which states in wikivoice that a controversy is related to "child castration erotica" when the source used does not make that connection, leaving it to readers to be outraged by the juxtaposition of the "facts" it has selected.)

  A finding in this forum that these sources are generally reliable on transgender topics, without qualifications about their one-sided coverage and biased language (compared to higher-quality sources on these issues), will inevitably be weaponized in the same way a similar finding on China Daily would have been: the rationale for the caveats is exactly the same. Newimpartial (talk) 03:32, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

  Newimpartial, you obviously care passionately about this issue, and I genuinely don't want to cause you any offense, but I don't think that your rhetorical question above is very helpful. I also don't appreciate being put in the position of being asked to defend the way in which Telegraph columnists write. But has there been recent controversy over the degree to which trans women are allowed to participate in sporting events? Yes, we both know that there has. The stuff about the voices of the parents of transgender children being 'rarely heard' - that's a relative descriptor, and a subjective opinion, not an objective fact - there's nothing to address there. Girth Summit _(blether) 22:36, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  I for one don't have any difficulty distinguishing between the ongoing policy disputes about trans inclusion in sports and parental authority in education, on the one hand, and "gender ideology" or the Telegaph's statement about the relative access trans children and their parents have to media in the UK, on the other. The former are public policy controversies in which reliable sources document a variety of views; the latter are simply false claims The Telegraph makes in its own voice, in its news reporting. As I have pointed out elsewhere on this page, a finding that The Telegraph is generally reliable on trans issues will be taken by editors as an invitation to incorporate the paper's biased language in wikivoice, to present its misleading characterizations as though they were just as plausible as statements in objectively better sources, and to make the inclusion of WP:FRINGE views DUE because The Telegraph has platformed them - particularly on issues picked up only by The Telegraph, The Times and the FRINGE sources. I admit my frustration that this outcome - an attempt at which was the clear motivation prompting this filing in the first place(see added note) - is not being taken seriously by a large number of editors, apparently unfamiliar with the GENSEX area, who seem to believe that The Telegraph is mostly (therefore "generally") reliable and that exceptions can be dealt with on a case by case basis. Literally the whole point of this filing was to generate a "generally reliable" ruling that could then he weaponised to promote the inclusion of views or "facts" that are only documented in these WP:BIASEDSOURCES (see note) Pretending that there is an ontological distinction between facts and opinions simply fails when a publication - and WP editors - are willing to select only the facts that promote the outlets' (or editors') opinions. This is demonstrably the case here. Newimpartial (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  Note: this filing was a direct response by the filer after they proposed an RfC to add content to a medical article based on these specific sources. The filer became frustrated with the objections raised to their proposed sources (frustration seemingly evident here and here); these three filings appear to be an attempt to overcome objections to the sources, expressed by multiple editors at the RfC, and thereby to ensure the inclusion of the disputed content. Added by Newimpartial (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

  I feel that you are now making accusations of bad faith editing on the part of the person who started this RfC. I know how strongly you feel about this, and while I disagree with your position, I can appreciate your frustration. Nevertheless, I think that you need to retract some of the things you have just said about the motivations of the person who started this RfC - you have crossed a line here. Girth Summit _(blether) 00:36, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

  I have struck through the one passage of my previous comment which I can imagine being interpreted as implying bad faith editing, and have added a note with diffs to explain the context of these RfCs as best I can. No WP:ASPERSIONS are intended. Newimpartial (talk) 01:00, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 News sources should not be downgraded because of editorial position. It is unneccessary anyway. Newspapers are already not reliable sources for biomed and commentary/analysis/opinion pages are not reliable either.I don't think btw that a news report that the BBC will hire more transexuals for diversity is an opinion piece or biomedical news. But even here, rs is never a conclusive reason for inclusion. Weight also applies, IOW if there is a story about the LGBTQA etc. community that is only covered in The Telegraph and ignored by most other reliable news sources, it generally should not be included. TFD (talk) 03:27, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

• Scrap the RFC 1. Trying to derive an overgeneralization 2. Trying to do so based on conformance to one side of a political debate. 3. Conformance to one side of a political debate is not "reliability". North8000 (talk) 15:36, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Bias on one topic has no bearing on the use of this newspaper as a source of factual information. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

RfC: The Times of London

What best describes The Times' news coverage of transgender topics?

• Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

gnu57 13:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)

Context: The Times of London

Note that recent discussions in article Talk where questions have been raised about the coverage in question include several discussions visible at Talk:Mermaids (charity), as well as this discussion on transgender medicine. Newimpartial (talk) 19:24, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Discussion: The Times of London

• Option 1. This is a standard quality press WP:NEWSORG based in the United Kingdom. It seems to be generally reliable for factual reporting of news, even in politically fraught areas. That being said, no WP:NEWSORG is WP:MEDRS, so it cannot be used to support claims relating to human biomedical information, much in the same way that we should not use the New York Times and The Wall Street Journal for claims relating to human biomedical information.— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• As I said on the other two RFCs, this seems to be trying to get a simple answer to a complex question. Reliability on a single issue (such as transgender) is not necessarily determined at editorial level, and could be down to the columnist. Transgender issues vary over social, legal and medical matters. We already have WP:MEDRS which does not regard the popular press as reliable sources for biomedical information, so to the extent that a transgender issue is biomedical, it shouldn't be used. The Sunday Times has a different editor. The Times published this Editorial which is strongly anti-trans but not as rabid as The Telegraph, such as their agreement that the fuss afforded to this issue is out of place in a world where we are at war and have an economic crisis, and they put the word "woke" in scare quotes. The Times recently published a guest piece by Kezia Dugdale which was pro-trans rights. I'm not clear that this paper is unreliable but its editorial bias is clear and should be bourn in mind when determining the weight and balance in our articles. -- Colin°^Talk 14:36, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

A reminder that Editorials and op-Ed columns are opinion pieces, and are held to a different standard of reliability than strait news reporting. Opinion pieces are expected to be biased on the issues they opine about, so we use in-line attribution to indicate that they ARE just opinion. Blueboar (talk) 15:12, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

In general, we shouldn't be using pieces written by opinion columnists for claims of fact except for claims about the opinions of the columnist. Are you suggesting that we should be using editorial commentary from The Times in articles? In any case, what's that got to do with the reliability of its news reporting? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I am aware of this. I cited the editorial to explain their editorial stance. -- Colin°^Talk 18:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

And…? How does their editorial stance impact the factual accuracy of their basic news reporting? Blueboar (talk) 20:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

This question is (partially) answered in my !vote below. I will add additional independent sources about the coverage in question when I am somewhat less pressed for time. Newimpartial (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Bias is not an issue. Slatersteven (talk) 15:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. One of the most reliable newspapers in the world. This has been a newspaper of record for two centuries and arguments that we should be counting the number of pro-trans/anti-trans editorials published by The Times don't carry water. The fact The Times put the word "woke" in scare quotes is not enough to designate them as unreliable. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 and suggest SNOW closing this. If there is any question of an RS with unreliable coverage in one area, that needs to be first discussed and unresolved on talk pages before opening such discussions. --Masem (t) 18:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  If there is any question of an RS with unreliable coverage in one area, that needs to be first discussed and unresolved on talk pages before opening such discussions. Trust me, this has been discussed. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:57, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2 - the biases of this broadsheet in its coverage of transgender rights issues have been repeatedly noted in scholarly and other high-quality sources, which is pretty much the definition of additional considerations apply. For example, peer-reviewed scholarly source concludes as follows:

The fact is that the trans community is so rarely given a platform in any form of mainstream media, that the “debate” surrounding their rights rarely includes trans people at all—as evidenced by the exclusion of trans voices in the articles from The Times and The Telegraph. Hence, trans people are dehumanised and denaturalised as their identity is debated and used for political fodder.

• I wouldn't mind if this filing were closed as premature, however, since the editor filing has not linked to any of the previously presented evidence or prior discussions on the topic, and this seems to be a "gotcha" filing intended to precipitate !votes from editors who haven't seen any of the relevant commentary and who would precipitate an ill-informed SNOW close that could then be used as a cudgel to insist that the coverage of trans issues by The Times is unproblematic, when high-quality sources on the topic suggest the opposite. Newimpartial (talk) 19:14, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 standard, reliable. Andre🚐 19:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 per the convincing analysis by Red-tailed hawk and Chess. This is an established newspaper of record, Newimpartial, I sincerely appreciate your willingness in settling this matter succinctly. Nevertheless, I would be interested if you could provide multiple scholarly sources instead of just one. I acknowledge that on transgender issues it has significant WP:DUE concerns per Colin, and while centre-right it is a WP:BIASED source. Further, it is definitely undesirable for medical claims per WP:MEDRS, but I do not see a serious claim that would push this to additional considerations apply. VickKiang (talk) 20:33, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  When I have time, I will add sources.I regard this filing as an ambush, frankly, and have not brought the multiple sources I have read on this matter into an organized presentation suitable to post here - I am not confident that I will have time to do so before Sunday.

  The nature of the problem is that The Times and The Telegraph pursue their "gender critical" editorial objectives through supposedly "investigative" reporting, and compete with each other in offering this flavour of "red meat" to their readers. In site of this, editors such as gnu57 insist that reportage in The Times and The Telegraph is sufficient in and of itself to make an "investigation" WP:DUE for inclusion in wikipedia article text, no matter how misleading the information presented in the broadsheets may be and even if the supposed "issues" are not picked up outside of the echo chamber of discourse against transgender rights.

  To me this is a prima facie case where additional considerations apply, and as previously stated I see the nature of the initial, decontextualized filing as an attempt by gnu57 to socially engineer a finding that, essentially, other considerations do not apply when they quite obviously do. Newimpartial (talk) 20:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  The nature of the problem is that The Times and The Telegraph pursue their "gender critical" editorial objectives through supposedly "investigative" reporting, and compete with each other in offering this flavour of "red meat" to their readers. In site of this, editors such as gnu57 insist that reportage in The Times and The Telegraph is sufficient in and of itself to make an "investigation" WP:DUE for inclusion in wikipedia article text, no matter how misleading the information presented in the broadsheets may be and even if the supposed "issues" are not picked up outside of the echo chamber of discourse against transgender rights. If you could provide information from WP:RS stating this, I'd be more than willing to have a look. Like I said, I acknowledge WP:DUE concerns, I'm not stating this source is better thnan WP:MEDRS. But this is a forum to discuss source reliability, not to criticise one editor's conduct. There are other venues more fitted for that. Until then, I'm thoroughly unconvinced, you could state that I'm biased... but I won't change my vote until you provide further evidence. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 20:51, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Which I do not have time to do until Sunday. Newimpartial (talk) 20:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  If so, wait to comment until Sunday then, instead of vaguely complaining about others. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 20:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  If my comments about gnu57's conduct in the objectives, absence of context and timing of these filings were vague, I apologize. I certainly did not mean for them to be. Newimpartial (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  No, I did not mean for this. You stated that and as previously stated I see the nature of the initial, decontextualized filing as an attempt by gnu57 to socially engineer a finding that, essentially, other considerations do not apply when they quite obviously do. If you believe the OP statement fails the brief and neutral requirement, you can post at WP:AN, which is the venue for poorly-constructed RfCs and for challenging RfC closes. If you would like to comment on another contributor's objectives or motives, discuss on their UTP or somewhere else. WP:RFC states the two points:

  Try not to be confrontational. Be friendly and civil, and assume good faith of other editors' actions.

  If you feel an RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template. Do not close the RfC just because you think the wording is biased. A tag generally remains on the page until removed by Legobot or the originator. A discussion can be closed only when the criteria at Ending RfCs are met.

  I'm interested, are you stating that their RfC wording is inappropriate (which seems fine to me), or are you questioning their objectives and motives? If the latter is applicable, WP:RSN is not the venue, UTP, ANI, and other places are better suited for those complaints, but this is the venue to discuss reliability. Again, many thanks for your participation! VickKiang (talk) 21:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  In many cases, such as gnu57's previous filing concening LBC above, the filer links to discussions that prompted the filing at this venue. I am assering that this would have been appropriate in this case, and that the discussion was distorted in the first instance by the filer's decision no do so. Many of those !voting appear to have read neither the article Talk discussions on these sources' reliability in specific contexts, nor the independent secondary and academic commentary on this coverage, nor even the coverage itself. Newimpartial (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: You can't just make vague references to article talk pages that supposedly have discussions on these sources and expect us to read them. That doesn't count as evidence. You're expected to post this "independent seccondary and academic commebtary (sic)" yourself to convince others. Not just handwave it that it exists, but you're unable to show it to us. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  When. I. Have. Time. Newimpartial (talk) 21:19, 11 November 2022 (UTC) Typo fixed, btw. Newimpartial (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: When will you have time? It looks like you're quite busy starting new RfCs on tangential points to this discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Genspect and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine. You've also posted a ton of replies to these three RfCs. Does this "independent secondary and academic commentary" exist or...? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 20:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  I was told that we have at least three more weeks. To produce somehing comparable to my detailed evidence on The Economist (which wasn't enough for some people) will take a number of hours. It isn't just a matter of dropping a few DOIs into the discussion and shouting "QED!" Newimpartial (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  The frank problem here is that much of the British media has serious problems with transgender coverage. The two examples I'm familiar with off the top of my head are:

  • The BBC's "We're being pressured into sex by some trans women" controversy, where the BBC published an article which interviewed several anti-trans sources without identifying them as anti-trans and without publishing any interviews from trans rights activists despite provably conducting them, where one of those sources about alleged sexual misconduct by trans women had been credibly accused of sexual misconduct herself, and where the only data in the article was a convenience sample survey produced and distributed by anti-trans groups. This rightly was extremely controversial, and the article has been amended several times, including by fiat from the regulatory body above the BBC.
  • The Guardian, who are actually better than average here, got some pretty strong criticism from their American division on this issue.

  (There is of course peer-reviewed data on the situation as well, but I don't have it on hand easily.) The problem here is that this general situation is hard to explain concisely, and further it's hard to connect this general situation to particular newsorgs. Loki (talk) 21:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: Scare quotes aren't an argument, and it's hard to rely on your assurances that you have "multiple sources" that you've read on the matter that you won't post here. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:15, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Many of those talk discussions on specific contexts raise concerns about WP:DUE, not reliability. It is not mandatory for editors to read all of the discussions, you might be a WP:EXPERT who is extremely knowledgable with this topic, but that doesn't mean that other editors who haven't participated or read as many discussions as you have incorrect, invalid, or biased opinions. VickKiang (talk) 21:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Editors !voting on this discussion based on a general impression of the London broadsheets, and not having examined any of the reception/commentary on the coverage in question, are contributing little of note to this evaluation, I feel. Newimpartial (talk) 21:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Editors !voting on this discussion based on a general impression of the London broadsheets, and not having examined any of the reception/commentary on the coverage in question, are contributing little of note to this evaluation, I feel. Like I said, if you should wait to comment until Sunday your claims would be much more convincing. otherwise, I don't believe others and I are contributing little of note to this evaluation, but I could see your viewpoint somewhat. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  If I had waited until Sunday, this could been SNOW closed as "Option 1" (which might have been the point). Newimpartial (talk) 21:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  I will post them on Sunday. I'm not responsible for the timing of this filing nor for the inclination from certain editors to issue a quick rubber stamp on a complex issue. Newimpartial (talk) 21:18, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Just as an update: as Sideswipe9th has noted, there is a lot of evidence to consider (though I am not employing a "god's eye view" methodology). I'm not convinced that I will be able to get longer comments on all three sources posted on Sunday, though I should be able to manage The Economist, at least. I still think a non-ambush format would have been better, and I have a concern that a "these sources are ok" or even a "no consensus" result will simply come back here in another year after more academic sources are published. I'm not entirely convinced that holding this discussion right now isn't a waste of everyone 's time, but I try to convince myself... Newimpartial (talk) 03:52, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Reserving comment until stronger evidence of bias can be provided. I'm more familiar with the Telegraph than the Times, and so while I find the general claim plausible (as many British newspapers have problems with trans issues), I don't want to vote without evidence either way. Loki (talk) 21:09, 11 November 2022 (UTC) Forgot to update this at the time, but I'm now voting for Option 3, per the sources I found below. Loki (talk) 02:12, 12 November 2022 (UTC) Switching to Option X below. Loki (talk) 18:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Same; I'll wait until the option 2/3 side has had enough time to present sources. DFlhb (talk) 21:16, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  A few sources I have found on the general issue (not necessarily the Times specifically, although some of them are):

  • CNN: Anti-trans rhetoric is rife in the British media. Little is being done to extinguish the flames
  • Paul Baker, a professor of linguistics: Representing trans people in the UK press – a follow-up study (NB: I'd like to find a peer reviewed version of either this or the original study but for now this is what I could find)
  • Xtra: British media is increasingly transphobic. Here’s why
  • Them: Meet the Trans Storytellers Fighting British Transphobia (subtitle calls Britain's press "virulently transphobic")
  • PinkNews: Journalist Juliet Jacques on how UK media is trying to ‘crush’ trans people: ‘We’re not in control’
  • Gay Times: Meet the journalist navigating Britain’s anti-trans press
  • USAToday: The Roots of Anti-Trans Feminism in the U.K.
  • Vice: The UK Is So Transphobic That Some Trans People Are Leaving
  • Insider: The BBC and The Times are accused of stoking a 'moral panic' against the trans community

  Loki (talk) 21:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  @LokiTheLiar: Could you highlight the ones that describe The Times specifically as transphobic? This isn't an RfC on the entirety of the British media establishment; it's an RfC on The Times. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:42, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  @LokiTheLiar: @Chess: One of the pieces critiqued by CNN is this. But it's worth noting that it is a weekend essay, an essay or editorial should be regarded as WP:RSOPINION. I though this RfC is about its news coverage, not opinion/essay/commentary/editorial ones. VickKiang (talk) 21:49, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  For what it's worth, the CNN piece is labeled as "analysis", which is to say that it's a opinion piece itself. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 22:11, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  No, it's not. Or rather, it's reported by a CNN journalist and hews to the same editorial standards as this piece about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which is also marked as "analysis". "Analysis" in this case does not mean "opinion" in the sense of persuasive writing, but rather that the journalist is not just reporting facts but attempting to interpret those facts. That's worth knowing but it doesn't make it at all an unreliable source: Vox does basically only analysis and they're green at WP:RSP. Loki (talk) 23:47, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  These articles are either a mix of opinion and anlysis, low-quality, or "X accuses Y of Z". This is certainly not enough to criticise a newspaper of record. 2A01:4B00:9D42:6E00:A960:7681:3CB9:A529 (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'm genuinely not trying to be mean about this but I need to ask: as this is your literal very first edit, could you please explain how you found yourself on a somewhat obscure policy page without ever having edited Wikipedia before? Loki (talk) 23:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  IP addresses change and there are plenty of long-term IP editors around. Why would this be my first edit? Was initiating a dispute resolution at DRN really your 10th edit? 2A01:4B00:9D42:6E00:A960:7681:3CB9:A529 (talk) 00:07, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 - and Im getting a bit concerned at the removal of sources for wrongspeak. Like it or not, this is a mainstream paper with mainstream views. Those views might not be the same as what one might wish they were, but as ever our goal here is to reflect the sources, not correct them. nableezy - 22:51, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Do you see any comments here advocating he removal of sources for wrongspeak? I'm not seeing any. Newimpartial (talk) 23:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, the people arguing to disqualify what is clearly a reliable source for being biased. nableezy - 22:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  What's your response to the sources above about the bias of the British media in general on this issue? They demonstrably do not have mainstream views from an international perspective, as several other international newsorgs have reported on the fact that the UK media has a clear bias in this area. Loki (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  That bias is not related to reliability. The world is moving very fast on this topic, and you may well find that in five years that people and sources that have espoused certain views to look back in shame at their actions. But our purpose here is to reflect what the breadth of sources, including biased ones, say about topics. The Times represents a mainstream view on these topics. It may not be my view, it may not be your view, it may be the WrongView™ entirely. But it is a mainstream one and it should still be reflected in our articles. Honestly, it seems like this topic has seen a carve out from our usual policies, purposely so and with the sympathy of what I would guess would be most editors who are aware of it. We have decided that we are going to, as a project, take an editorial position on any number of topics, such as MOS:GENDERID and deadnaming, that would usually be settled by our normal analysis of sources and determining the weight they should be given. And maybe thats appropriate in these cases, but this RFC is imo a bridge too far. What is being proposed is saying that we are disqualifying a source on the basis of its editorial views. nableezy - 22:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  How could WP:BIASED sources automatically be regarded as unreliable based on dubious "evidence"? They demonstrably do not have mainstream views from an international perspective- sources that support this? VickKiang (talk) 23:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  See above. Vice, CNN, and USAToday have all reported on the problems with the British media in general on trans issues.

  Would people prefer if I launched a separate RFC on the British media in general? I notice people seem reluctant to draw conclusions about specific newsorgs from evidence about the British media in general, and I understand that reluctance. But I also really can't drop this point, because obviously if the mainstream media of a country is verifiably biased on an issue according to international media organizations, it's a big problem for our coverage of that issue. Loki (talk) 00:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  It's actually not USA Today- it is US News. You ought to get this fact right here. See above. Vice, CNN, and USAToday have all reported on the problems with the British media in general on trans issues- simply asserting that Vice should be presumed as WP:RS per your POV seems to be a stretch. VickKiang (talk) 00:10, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  You are very much right about U.S. News vs. USA Today. My fault, while I was gathering sources I misread that.

  I also agree that Vice is yellow on WP:RSP and was not claiming otherwise.

  Now that those issues are out of the way, what is your opinion on the (green at RSP) U.S. News source and the (also green at RSP) CNN source? Loki (talk) 00:33, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  The CNN source quotes media issues from several interviewees. One of its examples describe that When it comes to trans rights “polling shows that the public isn’t necessarily as hostile as the media, but the media [continues] to lead the conversation,” Shon Faye, trans advocate and author of “The Transgender Issue,” told CNN. According to her analysis, in 2020 the Times and the Sunday Times published “over 300 articles, almost one a day, and they were all negative.” CNN has reached out to both newspapers for comment. This could be convincing to show WP:BIASED but does not depict unreliability. Moreover, Better political leadership is needed to counter the media narrative that trans people, particularly trans women, are taking resources away from cisgender women, Faye said- I don't see how The Times could automatically fit into this "media narrative", there are a wide range of media in Britain, it didn't really explicitly call out the "mainstream quality-press", and might also refer to tabloids and mid-market papers. Moreover, it quotes this article from The Times, but it is noteworthy that it is a weekend essay piece, which is commentary and falls under WP:RSOPINION. Similarly, They do not represent or reflect the views of U.K.-based feminists as a whole, and most U.K. based feminists reject their ideas and arguments, and consider them outdated or harmful. This does not mean they have no influence or impact, however. The trouble is that even though they are a minority, they are a vocal one, and they often have their views platformed by the media, including mainstream media. Stating that it is the view of others does not mean that US News is condemning The Times for unreliability. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 00:50, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Additionally, "they were all negative" is just Shon Faye's opinion. She is not a scholar. Ironically, Faye's book, The Transgender Issue, was positively reviewed by... The Times. DFlhb (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

  Vice just repeats the claims of the interviewees with attribution, which is not the same as Vice saying that there are issues. US News does not say what you claims it says about UK news, but has an interviewee say it. Same issue as with the Vice article. 2A01:4B00:9D42:6E00:A960:7681:3CB9:A529 (talk) 00:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. I don't see the reason for these three RfCs. The proponent should have made the effort to provide clear examples of fabrication or inaccuracy - linking to talk page discussions with long walls of text is not helpful. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:14, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  The person who started these RFCs launched them, IMO, prematurely, because they are, IMO, attempting to trade on the strong reputation of the names of these newsorgs in general to have them all declared reliable before evidence to the contrary on this subtopic can be presented. Loki (talk) 23:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1/2: Reliable sources may be biased. Also it seems in a previous discussion, a correction in an article was presented as evidence of unreliability, but the timely publication of a correction is precisely the opposite: evidence of reliability. MarioGom (talk) 23:18, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Comment: I think the result of this RFC should not be reflected in WP:RSP. While the source is generally reliable, we shouldn't imply that it is more reliable on this topic. It's not WP:MEDRS, it is simply reliable generalist press. MarioGom (talk) 15:07, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment Same comment as above. Separate to the question of reliability is the question of bias, which some assert, and some dismiss as constrained to op-eds. But I think option 1 supporters should clarify whether they consider the factual reporting biased or unbiased. I also invite option 2/3 supporters to provide evidence of bias in specifically the news coverage, by linking us to individual articles they think are biased, rather than by using academic sources that are commenting on the op-eds. I've yet to see arguments of ideological or opinionated bias in the news coverage, and would like to see individual examples. DFlhb (talk) 01:22, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Option 1 At the risk of pointing out the obvious, anti-whatever bias is not a reliability issue, per WP:BIASED. If one throws out WP:BIASED, one loses the NYT[77], Harvard[78], Yale[79], Cornell[80], professors generally[81], and so forth . . . is there even a single source that is so unbiased we could keep it? One "modest" proposal would be to limit ourselves to journalists who have worked on both sides of the aisle: Megyn Kelly, Judith Miller, Chris Wallace, Jennifer Rubin (columnist), and so on. Good luck with that. Adoring nanny (talk) 05:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Option 1 While all sources are biased to a degree, even UK broadcasters, which are regulated so as not to be, I don't see any evidence of consistent factually false reporting. Ample evidence has been provided that in the opinion of other reliable sources the Times opposes the expansion of trans-rights and surgical transitioning of minors, and that many feel this to be transphobic. However, we can not state it is unreliable on this topic unless it is shown to consistently publish false information at a higher level than the rest of its output. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Option 1 Again, standard quality WP:NEWSORG with editorial oversight. No proof of unreliability provided. I have to say, the fact this has been nominated alongside the Telegraph does start to negate my AGF about the idea that this is a WP:POINTy nom against right-leaning sources. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 08:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

@The C of E: The person who nominated this wants it to be declared reliable. They are WP:FORUMSHOPPING from the discussion on Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. Loki (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Option 1. This is the most slam-dunk case that appeared on RSN for months. The Times has been the UK newspaper of record since the 19th century. So you don't like the coverage of one issue, then discuss how to cite it on that single issue. No case, nada, has been made for a general judgement of unreliability. Zero^talk 08:56, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

With respect, nobody has asked for a general judgment of unreliability. The case has been made for a judgment of unreliability only on the question of transgender issues. I would probably rephrase/reassess your post because, as it stands, the closer would be forced to disregard it as irrelevant to the RfC. Boynamedsue (talk) 10:41, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

@Zero0000: The person who nominated this wants it to be declared reliable. They are WP:FORUMSHOPPING from the discussion on Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. (Also, for the record, they are discussion how to cite it on that single issue, and not generally. Read the prompt carefully.) Loki (talk) 18:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X: Scrap RfC. This seems to be a case of someone asking a question on which they favor the status quo, without presenting any of the arguments that have been given elsewhere against the status quo, to drum up easy !votes on their side. Any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Times on trans topics. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:55, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Please consider reading Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Statement should be neutral and brief. RfC statements are required to be neutral and brief; not to present arguments against the status quo. It would require an extremely creative reading of WP:RFCNEUTRAL to say that implies any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Times on trans topics. It is your responsibility as a person commenting at an RfC to bring up points and arguments against the status quo. It is very easy to drum up !votes for an Option 1 when the people against the status quo have provided no evidence and denigrate the RfC process. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 04:36, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X per Tamzin et al. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 14:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X In retrospect I should have voted for a non-neutral RFC for the beginning. The circumstances of these RFCs are clearly not neutral. Instead, they're clearly WP:FORUMSHOPPING from the discussion on Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. Loki (talk) 18:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X no FORUMSHOPPING, please. HouseBlaster^talk 18:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X since this is forumshopping from an ongoing talk page RfC and trying to present this as a general "is this newspaper reliable" is purposefully misleading toward said ongoing talk page RfC about the reliability and due weight of a specific article. Silverseren^C 19:36, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:FORUMSHOPPING defines it as: "Raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards and talk pages, or to multiple administrators or reviewers". I see the same editor created an RfC at Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People: "Should the article mention the controversy over the Eunuch chapter in SOC8?". Creating an RfC here – "What best describes The Times' news coverage of transgender topics?" – doesn't look like "essentially the same issue" to me; if anything, it helps separate out the general question about reliability from whether inclusion of particular content in a particular article would be undue. EddieHugh (talk) 21:10, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

The entire point of the three threads OP has made here is to try and use a "reliable" decision on RSN to argue for DUE inclusion on the article talk page RfC. Hence why it is forumshopping because the RfC there isn't going the way they desire. Or are you saying that why they started these RSN discussions has nothing to do with that discussion and they just independently decided to make these RSN threads for no reason? Silverseren^C 21:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

If reliability of sources became something to resolve, then including it here – Wikipedia:Reliable sources – looks ok to me, instead of attempting to resolve it on the talk page of an article that averages 50 views per day. EddieHugh (talk) 21:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I decided to open an RfC after this discussion on Newimpartial's talk page, plus Newimpartial and Sideswipe's comments in the LBC News thread above. I had no intention of canvassing, forumshopping, or prematurely SNOW closing the discussion. Anyone who believes these publications are unreliable is welcome to present their evidence at any point in the next several weeks. gnu57 21:51, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

...after lots of people have voted already. Also, several of us said specifically in the previous discussion we didn't have the evidence ready at hand, and no notification was given to anyone on the previous discussion whatsoever, nor was there any attempt to start a discussion here before going straight to a (binding) RFC. It's as clear a case of WP:FORUMSHOPPING as they come. Loki (talk) 23:14, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I think per WP:RFCTP: After you create an RfC, it will be noticed by editors that watch the talk page, by editors that watch the RfC lists, and by some editors subscribed to the Feedback Request Service (FRS), who will be automatically notified by Yapperbot. However, there may not be enough editors to get sufficient input. To get more input, you may publicize the RfC by posting a notice at one or more of the following locations... I don't think that notifying other about a RfC is mandatory, given the line you may, but I could see your point of view. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 23:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

This is not a general "is this newspaper reliable" RfC; it is a specific RfC regarding the reliability of this newspaper for its coverage on a particular topic. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1, no evidence of unreliability for facts has been presented. As for the claims that this RfC is forum shopping, many in these discussions have been arguing repeatedly, not just at the Standards of Care RfC but also at Talk:Mermaids (charity), Talk:LGB Alliance, and elsewhere, that these sources are actually unreliable and rejecting the consensuses documented at WP:RSP. They variously seem to expect us to take their word for it, or cite the same few op-eds and similar from 'progressive' American media complaining that British papers of record don't go all-in on their preferred policy of absolute gender self-identification. These complainants either need to stop making this disruptive argument or present a case to change the community's mind. After months they failed to do so, preferring to instead disregard RSP on individual talk pages, and so someone else started a discussion. They keep saying a discussion needs to happen, so let's have it. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:22, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X I agree with Tamzin that this RfC has not been presented in a way that encourages informed discussion. The context of the underlying discussions that lead to the snap creation of this RfC has been left out by the filer, which is interesting when you compare these three RfCs, with the related discussion on LBC News, also started by the filer. Uninvolved editors are being asked to ask blindly whether or not these sources are reliable in a specific context, without any information as to why they are being discussed as unreliable in that context. While I have been preparing for an eventual RfC on how the anti-trans bias of The Telegraph and The Times is impacting on their reliability in this context, and I've not been shy on stating that I'm preparing for such on relevant article talk pages, I am not yet ready to present this information in a clear and succinct manner that uninvolved editors will be able to follow, and will need time to formulate such a response. This is simply a premature filing of a discussion that requires a great deal more care than has been given to it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

If understand correctly… there is a question at the article level as to whether material cited to these sources is DUE or UNDUE… and that question hinges on whether we consider these sources Reliable or Unreliable.

If that is an accurate summary of the situation, then I think it makes perfect sense to pause the DUE discussion at the article and get an answer to the RS question here first. Blueboar (talk) 21:52, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

You have a month to comment on this RfC. Complaining that you are not yet ready to present this information is not a legitimate point and neither is expecting dozens of other Wikipedia editors to wait on you until some undefined point in the future where you feel like you're ready to !vote. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 04:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment The attempts to classify this RfC as forumshopping are entirely without merit. This RfC relates to specific claims that certain organisations are not reliable on trans issues, over their entire output. This is the correct venue for such a discussion. As for the claims that the original poster should have outlined the case against reliability, this is entirely spurious. The OP is not obliged to outline a case they do not believe to be true, that is the job of those who believe the outlets to be unreliable. The sophistry on display on these pages is very concerning, I hope it is not run of the mill on talk pages in the transgender subject area, or we have a big problem. Boynamedsue (talk) 22:16, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 As per my comments for The Telegraph, and per my comments for The Economist. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 23:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. A top tier source, and the fact that we need to have this discussion demonstrates why the RSN process needs to be overhauled or abandoned.

I note that editors opening an RFC are forbidden from presenting an arguments for or against the status quo as part of doing so, per WP:RFCNEUTRAL. BilledMammal (talk) 04:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Again. This is not true. -- Colin°^Talk 09:48, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

If a user does present a summary in their opening, other users will generally state that this is not helpful, and will often vote BadRfC. However, we can surely agree that there is no obligation to present a summary of the opposing arguments in the introduction? The vast majority of RfC's do not have this on this forum. Boynamedsue (talk) 10:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. No evidence has been provided of false reporting by this highly reputable source. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 08:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Similar to my response in The Telegraph RfC: I am in agreement that no evidence has been provided to support the claim that The Times of London is not a reputable source and that it lacks factual reporting. (What I'm getting from this RfC -- and The Economist RfC, and The Telegraph RfC -- is an attempt to attack and censor newspapers and magazines that don't kowtow to special interest groups.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyxis Solitary (talk • contribs) 12:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Clearly a reliable source. The arguments presented above that it is not a reliable source on these topics are unpersuasive and misdirected, and the arguments that this RFC is procedurally improper are misconceived. This should be closed as WP:SNOW. The same rationale applies to the other two sources. Banks Irk (talk) 19:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  WP:SNOW does not apply, as policy-based grounds have been presented by multiple editors that Option 1 does not apply - it cannot be taken as a forgone conclusion, nor are the tests set out in SNOW likely to be met. Please see my response to the equivalent !vote concerning The Economist for citations from SNOW. Newimpartial (talk) 23:34, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2 The points raised by Newimpartial and Loki are enough to tip this over into "additional considerations apply" territory. Even newspapers of record aren't suitable in every circumstance for every topic. XOR'easter (talk) 22:27, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Highly reliable sources do not become unreliable because one disagrees with them in some particular case. Of course, if such a source is out of step with the consensus of reliable sources on a given subject, that consensus of sources should still be what the article appropriately reflects, but that does not make the source itself unreliable. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  So how would you propose that we deal with content, like The Economist's coverage of medical education and "transgender ideology" (which I documented above), where a normally reliable source is demonstrably out of step with the consensus of reliable sources on a given subject? What are we do do when the source is consistently out of step with the consensus of reliable sources on that topic as a whole? Reloanle sources do indeed become reliable when they consistently disagree with the consensus of reliable sources on a topic, even/especially when then agree with a prominent contingent of demonstrably FRINGE sources. Newimpartial (talk) 00:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  You keep saying that it is "demonstrably out of step with the consensus of reliable sources" but as far as I'm aware you've been saying you don't have any time to PROVIDE these sources for three days. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 02:00, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  I provided appropriate sourcing for the example I use here (The Economist and "gender ideology" in medical education in the US) in the appropriate section. The question I am asking here is how we should treat such cases when they arise - to date I have not submitted an equivalent example from The Times and if the answer is "we shouldn't do anything when thwt happens" then why would I bother? Newimpartial (talk) 02:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  Then, in those particular instances, you just say "Hey, it looks like they're not in line with the consensus on this particular topic", and provide material to back that up. That doesn't take an RSN RFC, just a regular old talk page discussion. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:43, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  My understanding of the reason this filing was made is that many editors have said of The Economist, The Telegraph and The Times on various article pages that these sources are not in line with the RS consensus on the topics in question, and that one editor wanted to challenge this by having these sources found generally reliable on transgender topics. I for one would be perfectly content to settle the issues on a Talk page by Talk page basis, and I believe most of the "Option X" !voters feel the same way. It is the filer and many of the "Option 1" !voters who seem to have a different view. Newimpartial (talk) 04:53, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: One of your first comments in this discussion (about four days ago) was When I have time, I will add sources.I regard this filing as an ambush, frankly, and have not brought the multiple sources I have read on this matter into an organized presentation suitable to post here - I am not confident that I will have time to do so before Sunday.

  So far I am still waiting on this "consensus of reliable sources" or "organized presentation". You constantly refer to this documentation that you've provided or how these sources are demonstrably out of step with reliable sources, but you haven't bothered to document or demonstrate the claims you've made. You can't just reply to everyone, assert that you're right, refuse to elaborate, and leave. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 20:48, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  FFS, Chess. I spent hours assembling the "organized presentation" for The Economist, which I submitted first (on Sunday) because it was the case where the independent RS sourcing about the coverage was the weakest, and I wanted to steer that discussion away from the SNOWfall it seems that you so earnestly desire. That presentation, in spite of its limitations, required me to include dozens of references within my comment and to assess many more (not a kind of effort I have seen you make in this discussion, by the way).

  So, 48 hours later, you complain that I haven't done the equivalent for the two broadsheets - even though you are the same editor who insists that we have so much time before the RfC closes that we have nothing to complain about in terms of effort and deadlines. The fact is, I have a full-time job and family responsibilities outside of Wikipedia, I submitted 14,000 characters of evidence-backed commentary on The Economist on Sunday, and if it takes another week for me to get through an equivalent presentation on The Times you are in no position to insist that I WP:SATISFY you in this matter. Newimpartial (talk) 21:04, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'm complaining that you make reference to evidence you haven't provided yet. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 15:12, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X While the RFC itself is phrased neutrally, the author is WP:FORUMSHOPPING for editors to sway onto his/her side. I will not support that. Bowler the Carmine | talk 02:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

In what other forum has the matter been raised? The talk pages of individual articles don't count.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:31, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Why exactly don't talk pages count? They're fora, just like noticeboards like this. They're covered by the forum shopping policy. Bowler the Carmine | talk 21:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Because the main purpose of this forum is to consult uninvolved users when there is a disagreement over reliability of a source on a talkpage. Taking a reliability related discussion from a talkpage to this forum is not forum shopping, if it was almost everything that ever gets here would be classified as such. Boynamedsue (talk) 22:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 Without doubt a reliable source (excluding WP:MEDRS area of course). When reliable sources disagree over some topic, then there is simply no consensus on that topic. Pavlor (talk) 06:16, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Same responses as to The Economist and The Telegraph above. DoubleCross (‡) 15:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 My impression is that the Times' editorial slant is less pronounced than that of the Telegraph, and as I said up there, we have things like WP:BIASED, WP:RSEDITORIAL and WP:HEADLINES to help with bias in newspapers. The Times is a quality broadsheet with editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking, and I'd judge it as being as good as a news source can be for assertions of fact. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:49, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'll add to the above - by 'as good as a news source can be', I mean that it's obviously not OK for biomedical information, and even for stuff about science in general we shouldn't be going to newspapers. And I'll echo what MarioGom has said above - however this is closed, we shouldn't be giving the impression that the Times is especially reliable in this area. It's merely generally reliable, in a newspapery sense, with the usual newspapery caveats. Girth Summit _(blether) 19:09, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Scrap the RFC 1. Trying to derive an overgeneralization 2. Trying to do so based on conformance to one side of a political debate. 3. Conformance to one side of a political debate is not "reliability". North8000 (talk) 15:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. Bias on one topic has no bearing on the use of this newspaper as a source of factual information. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Željko Heimer (https://zeljko-heimer-fame.from.hr/home.html)

I need an opinion can Željko Heimer who leads, maintains and edits this website be considered a reliable source?

As far as I understand, Heimer is a notable vexillologist (there is an article on him at the Serbo-Croatian [82] and Serbian [83] Wikipedia, also there is an article on him at the Jewish Biographical Lexicon, published by Miroslav Krleža Institute of Lexicography and edited by Ivo Goldstein).

I believe he is an established expert in vexillology and can be used as a reliable source. Governor Sheng (talk) 12:09, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

You don't need to put RfC tags on these discussions.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:31, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

As self-published vexillology hobbyist, Željko Heimer can't be used in any case other than issues concerning vexillology, but even that only when other editors have no objection(s) because Heimer is electro-engineer whose hobby is vexillology, and who maintains, or is maintained, self-published vexillology blog. He (or his blog) can't be used in issues involving, for instance, constitutionality, constitutional court cases, law and whatever legal matters are discussed in article(s). Bottom line, he could, maybe, be used only on issues involving appearance of flags and emblems (coa), or something innocuous like historical flag(s) design, and other matters of vexillology. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 19:42, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a rather limited, not helpful insight, because Heimer has published scholarly works on the subject of vexillology [84]. But thanks anyway. Governor Sheng (talk) 04:55, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Genspect

Are publications and declarations by Genspect reliable sources when commenting on transgender medicine and other transgender topics? Newimpartial (talk) 22:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Survey (Genspect)

• No, they are so far from the science that they cannot be taken seriously. XOR'easter (talk) 22:40, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
• Too broad - For medicine? No. But what is meant by “transgender topics”? Please be more specific. Blueboar (talk) 22:57, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  The language, and hence the intended overall scope, of this filing is identical to those for The Economist, The Telegraph and The Times above. If specific examples would be helpful, I would be happy to offer relevant diffs. :) Newimpartial (talk) 23:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The wording of the others mentioned is of the form "What best describes ...'s news coverage of transgender topics". EddieHugh (talk) 19:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

• No They have a position that is in opposition to evidence-based care and is unwavering. A Suitable source for medical topics would base its positions upon the latest evidence, rather than having a fixed position.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 00:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Generally No They're absolutely not a reliable source by themselves. Stuff they put out can be used as a source for the fact that they said something or that they believe something, but not for the truth of the matter asserted. Loki (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• No Similar to asking if the Heritage Foundation is a reliable source. You can attribute statements from them, I suppose, though DUE considerations would come into play in such a case. But, otherwise, no, not a reliable source for any medical or scientific topic. Silverseren^C 01:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Strong No They can be attributed in limited DUE instances where proper, however for general reliability of transgender topics and medicine, definitely not. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 01:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Strong no - their publications oppose the opinions of multiple legitimate medical associations. They are political publications, not medical ones. Skyerise (talk) 02:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• No, generally contrary to medical consensus on the topic. They would be reliable only for attributed positions of the organization itself, but not for general factual statements. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:40, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• No no advocacy group is a WP:MEDRS source. Yes for aboutself etc. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Has anyone ever seriously proposed using things published by Genspect in an article, or is this just an RfC to make a WP:POINT about The Economist/The Daily Telegraph/The Times? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 20:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  Presumably Stella O'Malley was making such a proposal in her comments about Wikipedia coverage of transgender topics documented here. Newimpartial (talk) 21:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: It sounds like when Stella O'Malley said Consequently, articles by gender extremists such as Lee Leveille, are favoured over the more conventional Sunday Times that she wished to have articles by The Sunday Times included on Wikipedia (the subject of an RfC we're currently having). Regardless, she said this on the Genspect website, not onwiki. We do not need to have an RfC every time someone complains about Wikipedia on their website. This is a waste of time and so my !vote is No with a WP:SNOWCLOSE per WP:SPS.

  That being said, this shouldn't be construed as endorsing your fairly obvious plan of action to designate otherwise reliable newspaper articles as unreliable sources because they use a quote from Genspect. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 17:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  Obviously, that is not my plan. But when an otherwise WP:RS decides that it is going to reserve essentially all of its news reaction/"expert" commentary on a topic for sources known to be unreliable and to be associated with a certain extreme viewpoint on that topic, that form of bias is worth noting, innit? If we were talking about 2020 election denialists or holocaust skeptics, I find it hard to believe we would be seeing so much "but BOTHSIDES!" sentiment. Newimpartial (talk) 18:20, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Newimpartial: It's certainly a bold choice to compare Genspect to people who deny the Holocaust. Is that hyperbole or do you really believe we should treat them as being in the same category? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:30, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  Today I was alleged by an IP editor to have "multiple learning disabilities" because of my gender identity. Genspect holds essentially the same view, which is also that expressed by a recent ex-admin at RfA. The factual basis of gender identity is not really any more in doubt in the RS literature than the factual basis of the holocaust or the 2020 US presidential election, in spite of what certain editors and admkna would prefer to believe. Newimpartial (talk) 21:42, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• No, excepting only limited use per WP:ABOUTSELF, and even then only when qualified that they are a political advocacy group that works against prevailing medical consensus. Should not be considered WP:MEDRS. --Jayron32 14:09, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• No, items published by GENSPECT should not be used for facts about transgender medicine, as this is not WP:MEDRS and it should not be used for biomedical information. For non-medical topics on trans issues, it's a partisan advocacy organization and we generally should not be using it as a source for facts in Wikipedia articles as such, certainly not to support contentious material about related BLPs. I don't know what "declarations" means in this context, but they are certainly reliable for their own opinion if that's what it's getting at. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 22:57, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Threaded discussion (Genspect)

• Like any other advocacy group, they are reliable as a primary source for statements as to the views of the organization (per WP:ABOUTSELF). The issue isn’t (or shouldn’t be) whether they are reliable, but rather how much WEIGHT to give their views (if any). That is a function of WP:DUE, and is better discussed at WP:NPOV/N. Blueboar (talk) 21:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine

Are publications associated with the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine reliable sources when commenting on transgender medicine and other transgender topics? Newimpartial (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Survey (SEBGM)

• No — yet another pseudomedical advocacy group. XOR'easter (talk) 22:43, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
• No Same rationale as XOR'easter.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Generally No Like any WP:SPS they can be used for (some) information about themselves but definitely not for the truth of things they assert. Loki (talk) 01:05, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• No Not an actual scientific organization, though they pretend to be. Should be treated as any other pseudoscience group is. Ie not reliable and there needs to be a really good DUE reason to even use them with attribution. Silverseren^C 01:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• No It's quite fringy. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 01:25, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Strong no - their publications oppose the opinions of multiple legitimate medical associations. They are political publications, not medical ones. Skyerise (talk) 02:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• No no advocacy group is a WP:MEDRS source. Yes for aboutself etc. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes - an "international group of over 100 clinicians and researchers." Clearly not "pseudomedical" as baselessly described by a couple editors. - LilySophie (talk) 14:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

  Baselessly? Newimpartial (talk) 15:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

• Obviously not. Pseudoscientific junk. Bon courage (talk) 15:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• No and WP:SNOW close. Nobody is arguing that we should be using WP:SPS in articles. This is an RfC designed to make a WP:POINT. It's not even an interesting or even controversial point. It's to prove some arcane point in the above discussion on The Economist because at some point in that discussion the reliability of SEBGM was argued about. As Newimpartial said, Also, I meant to point out that your description of James Cantor and other Genspect devotees as subject-matter experts strikes me as hilarious, clueless and contemptible all at once. Congratulations, you have successfully WP:POINTed that out with something that could've been a single RSN post and not a full-blown RfC. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 20:25, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• Absolutely not - Does not conform to our standards for expert consensus organizations, is ideologically based, and disagrees with the mainstream consensus on this topic. Analogous to the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:28, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
• No, only for WP:ABOUTSELF, and even so only when clearly qualified that they are an advocacy group that fights against medical consensus. Should never be considered reliable under WP:MEDRS guidelines. --Jayron32 14:06, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Depends on what "associated with" means in this context; a paper written by a qualified researcher associated with the group and published as a peer-reviewed review paper or meta-analysis in an otherwise reliable journal probably meets WP:MEDRS. If this RfC is narrowly construed to items directly published by the society, no, they should not be used for facts about transgender medicine, as this is an advocacy group and not WP:MEDRS; it should not be used for biomedical information. For non-medical topics on trans issues, it's an advocacy organization and we generally should not be using it as a source for facts in Wikipedia articles as such, certainly not to support contentious material about related BLPs. It's obviously reliable for its own opinion as a primary source, but that's a tautology and not really relevant analysis standard here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Threaded discussion (SEBGM)

Question - what prompted this RfC and the one above it on Genspect? Is anyone anywhere, or any article, using this in anything other than an WP:ABOUTSELF fashion? Crossroads ^-talk- 01:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

The question was most recently asked (by Springee) here. It has previously come up in this discussion, among others. Newimpartial (talk) 02:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

So basically you aren't answering my question but instead are creating a pointy RfC. It's clear you have a strong POV on this subject and are willing to make that POV clear with many, many edits. That said, if three different British news sources, each well respected, are now all "anti-trans" then perhaps the issue isn't that they are magically unreliable in this one area, rather that they don't agree with sources you like. As for these groups, they are advocacy groups and thus their comments, right or wrong, should be largely treated as self published like just about any other advocacy organization. Springee (talk) 02:51, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Are you proposing that their statements should have the same status as, say, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health? Or are you distinguishing between advocacy groups and professional organizations, and classifying Genspect and SEBGM as advocacy groups? I also feel compelled to point out that, in terms of social epistemology, the difference between WPATH and SEBGM is not accurately characterized as WPATH being a source (I) like and SEBGM not being one. Newimpartial (talk) 03:00, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Advocacy groups should all, largely be treated the same way. We don't cite them directly. We have to wait for RSs to cite them and then we only cite what the RS cited. Springee (talk) 03:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Are you saying that you consider WPATH to be an advocacy group, then? Because I don't think consensus reality (or community consensus) agrees with you about that. Newimpartial (talk) 03:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

And in terms of answering (your) question, you were raising the question whether the groups platformed by The Economist, which I characterized in the discussion above as "FRINGE", were in fact to be considered reliable. That isn't a question to be answered by my personal opinion but rather community consensus, which can be ascertained on this venue. Nothing POINTey about it - I'm not sure whether you've actually read WP:POINT recently, given your statement here. Newimpartial (talk) 03:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

No, you were claiming the Economist was fringe because you didn't like the groups they agreed with. That doesn't make the Economist fringe. It may mean that the particular claim of even an otherwise fringe group shouldn't be treated as such. Anyway, it would be best if you didn't bludgeon the discussion so much. Springee (talk) 03:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

In this discussion I have only responded to your comments when they addressed me directly; I don't think BLUDGEON applies to that. And yes, if The Economist consistently cites spokespeople representing FRINGE groups on a certain issue, that makes them FRINGE on that issue. If the magazine consistently platformed conspiracy theorists concerning the 2020 US election, that would indeed make them a FRINGE source on that topic. This seems self-evident to me. Newimpartial (talk) 03:15, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Wow, you're really revealing your own bias here, Springee. And not in the pro-science sense. Are you really claiming WPATH is an advocacy group? Following from your statement here, are you saying that the actual academic sources calling out the bias of British newspapers in this subject area don't matter because said newspapers are reliable no matter what? Silverseren^C 03:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

If you say so. Look, even the American Cancer Association should be treated like an advocacy group. We should be very careful about directly attributing views to any such group. As for the academic sources, we would have to look at them on a case by case basis. I think you and Newimpartial are trying to take comments to an illogical extreme. The discussions above certainly have not shown that we should treat these UK based sources as unreliable for this topic in general. That doesn't mean specific articles/claims can't be found to be unreliable. However, we should also be careful that we aren't discounting such claims simply because we don't agree with them. Springee (talk) 03:36, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Springee, are you referring to the American Cancer Society or the American Association for Cancer Research? The former is indeed an advocacy group, but the latter is a professional body of experts. Newimpartial (talk) 03:44, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, the ACS is what I was thinking of. Yes, they are a professional organization but one of the things they do is advocate for their cause. Springee (talk) 04:29, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

The activity of WPATH corresponds to that of the AACR, not the ACS, so I'm afraid the analogy you are making here doesn't really support your position. Newimpartial (talk) 04:57, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

If you say so. Not that this supports your case for claiming the UK media sources are unreliable for trans issues which is your stated reason for opening this set of POINTY RfCs. Springee (talk) 05:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

You misunderstand my reason for filing, then. I simply want the community to decide whether these sources are reliable. You suggested above that because The Economist platforms them, that maybe they are seen as authoritative - if the community were to support that view, I wouldn't want to be out of touch with consensus. Newimpartial (talk) 05:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, no, this is a POINTY RfC. Would you have even bothered were it not for the fact that your arguments aren't swaying unconvinced editors above? Springee (talk) 05:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:POINT isn't just about having a point, it's about disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. In fact, the thing it specifically suggests you're supposed to do if you feel that a particular source does not meet Wikipedia standards is express your concerns on the talk pages of articles which cite it, or at the reliable sources noticeboard.

I think Newimpartial pretty clearly does have a purpose behind this RFC, but that purpose is clearly for the benefit of the encyclopedia: namely, preventing people from trying to smuggle in terrible sources. And they clearly had reason to do so, because you, specifically, suggested that those terrible sources were not so terrible after all. Loki (talk) 07:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Can you point to someplace where this source was being used incorrectly? Newimpartial's RfC confuses if an advocacy group's claims should be treated as reliable with if they are correct or not. Thus a not reliable answer here doesn't answer if the ideas stated by the group are fringe or not. Yes, this is a POINTY RfC. Springee (talk) 11:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

What? If an advocacy group is not known to be a reliable source (except as a source for his own views) then its claims should not be treated as reliable. If the conclusion of this filing expresses a community consensus that its views are not grounded in science, then that is worth knowing. No WP:POINT whatsoever. Newimpartial (talk) 15:25, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

When it comes to citing the opinions of advocacy groups, their own publications are actually the single MOST reliable source possible. Other sources (reporting on their views) may omit details present in the original - or may introduce their own bias, thus misrepresenting the opinion expressed in original. This is why we have WP:ABOUTSELF to begin with.

However, reliability is not the be-all-and-end-all of inclusion. We ALSO have WP:DUE WEIGHT. We have to ask whether the view of the advocacy group significant enough to mention (and if so, how much article space do we give it?… a short sentence? A full paragraph? A sub-section?). THAT depends on the specific context… which article we are talking about? which statement by the advocacy group? The same statement might be DUE in one article, and completely UNDUE in another.

The flaw with this RFC is that it focuses on reliability when it should be focused on DUE WEIGHT. Blueboar (talk) 15:48, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Do you have ideas on how to formulate filings to address DUE WEIGHT in particular? I'm thinking not just of these two sources, but also The Economist on the same issues (where it relies on experts drawn from these two groups). Newimpartial (talk) 16:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps you should start by showing where these organizations have been used as sources for a disputed claim. If editors aren't citing these sources then this RfC is a waste of time. Springee (talk) 16:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Springee, you clearly expressed the view (above) that if The Economist is presenting these sources as reliable we should revisit whether the community regards them as such. That's all I am doing. Newimpartial (talk) 15:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Know Your Meme

Know Your Meme has been discussed several times and is currently listed at WP:KNOWYOURMEME as being generally unreliable. However, I could not see any discussion on staff written articles at the site. At Boyinaband, @Strugglehouse: cited this article written by Phillip Hamilton, an associate editor at Know Your Meme. Hamilton is listed on the staff page.

I was wondering if this article, along with others written by staff at KYM (not user-generated or community written), would be suitable for inclusion within a BLP article. Mbdfar (talk) 03:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Even if it was written by staff, I do not see KYM being a high enough quality source to include unconfirmed grooming allegations in a BLP. I suspect that if this was taken to BLPN the response would be the same as mine. Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

That particular article isn't user-generated content in the same way that most of Know Your Meme is, but that's about the best that can be said for it – I don't think that even KYM's staff-written articles have the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy required by WP:RS, and the author doesn't seem to have any history of publication in more securely reliable venues that I can find (though he has an unfortunately ungoogleable name, so I may have missed something). I can't see any reason why we should consider KYM staff-authored articles reliable in general; as Hemiauchenia says we certainly shouldn't be using them to support such serious allegations againt living people. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

If someone wanted to include a link to a meme explanation page due to the memes relation to the subject, then maybe it's not really that important. For allegations of grooming? Hell no, staff writer or not. It needs to be a much more reliable source before such allegations are put in a BLP. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:28, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

100% agreed, KYM should never be used for contentious BLP, period. Masem (t) 01:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

It obviously can't be used for serious allegations about child grooming and sexual abuse; that needs to be handled with a level of care that Know Your Meme wouldn't provide. Looking through that staff writer's other "editorships", here's a less obvious example: could we for example use the staff-written entry for "Mask Off Challenge" as a source for a statement added to Mask Off#Legacy about how the song was popular on TikTok and used in TikTok "challenges"? Endwise (talk) 11:20, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• I will concur with the above WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. If KYM is cited in an article about some goofy internet meme, meh? Okay? It's probably not the worst thing. Would I ever use such a site as a source for contentious material in a BLP. Hell no. Absofuckinglutely not. The sort of allegations should only be reported if sourced to multiple, highly-respected and reliable sources. KYM is not the BBC. It's not the AP. No way. --Jayron32 14:03, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• In my experience, much of KYM's content is user-generated and very bad; even stuff from staff writers tends to be quite slipshod. They are an entertainment website that does not do serious scholarship. Their content is quite unreliable on specific details. While the images are real, they will often, for example, claim that a meme was "originated" several years late and from a different website. For example, a 4chan meme from 2006 will be cited by KYM as a Reddit meme from 2009, presumably because they used a single Google query for "research". I would use it for memes only with great caution, when details can be corroborated from primary sources/evidence elsewhere (Internet Archive, Encyclopædia Dramatica, etc). For... contentious claims in BLPs... about extremely serious ethical allegations... absolutely not reliable. jp×g 17:01, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Glottolog unreliable for linguistics

Based on a recent discussion with @Austronesier: and @Arctic Circle System:, I had reason to look into Glottolog, a project I was aware of and had assumed to be reliable. However, what I found convinced me that Glottolog is an entirely unreliable source, that represents a WP:FRINGE view in conflict with virtually all linguistic scholarship, and that it should not be considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. I first looked at North Germanic and there are so many obvious errors that it's hard to know where to start (and I don't intend to provide a full list of glaring errors), but classifying 'Old East Norse' under 'West Scandinavian' (and hence in a different group to Swedish and Danish, its direct descendants) is perhaps the worst. Next, I took a look at some other language groups at Glottolog, and it gets even worse. Suggesting that the two divisions of Scottish Gaelic are Church Gaelic and East Sutherlandshire Gaelic is straight out "flat earth"'level, and in very sharp contrast to the entire field of Celtic linguistics. Glottolog's invention of a "Munster-Leinster" dialect also contradicts the entire field of scholarship. More bizarre WP:FRINGE claims for the Romance languages, where Glottolog pretends that Romanian and Tuscan Italian (two entirely separate languages) are more similar than Tuscan and Corsican (a Tuscan dialect). For Sardinian, it engages in some complex but hilarious reclassification in which Sassarese Sardinian becomes closer to Norman French than to other Sardinian dialects. Again, there is not one linguistic source I'm aware of supporting these hilarious claims, and tons of good research contradicting it. In short, no linguist could take Glottolog's classification serious. I know the site is run by two linguists, yet it is not peer-reviewed. Quite clearly, it is severely lacking in academic rigour. For some languages it appears correct (for example, the Slavic languages look ok to me) but it really is a hit and miss, and it flat out contradicts all modern scholarship for so many languages that it's impossible to rely on it. For this reason, I propose that Glottolog be considered an unreliable source. Jeppiz (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Triple hyperbole aside (Glottolog is an entirely unreliable source, that represents a WP:FRINGE view in conflict with virtually all linguistic scholarship), I agree that Glottolog is not perfect and shouldn't be overly relied on; actually only for preliminary quick'n'dirty solutions when peer-reviewed sources are not at hand. Glottolog is a) as good as its sources (the choice of which often can be contentious) and b) as good as the reading of these sources by the Glottolog linguist(s) Hammarström (et al.), a reading that occasionally is superficial or even erroneous. They are open for criticism, and I have pointed out errors to them a few times, with quick response. Maybe this is better discussed in WT:LANG, since we have a short assessment of this source (and other comprehensive online sources like Ethnologue) in the section Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages#Interpreting_online_sources_of_data. –Austronesier (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

(ec) I don't really think most of the illogical statements are really due to "fringe" or "flat earth" reasoning, but rather to an intransparent mixture of statements on the basis of incompatible or contradictory criteria – like when classificatory statements that are supposed to apply to a whole language (i.e. a range of dialects as a whole) are mixed in with classificatory statements that apply to only one standard form within that range, under the same name; or when genetic statements about ancient language forms are mixed in with statements about portions of modern dialect continua or sociolinguistic registers. I just checked the section on "Greek" and it's indeed chaotic – though one can understand each individual ordering decision on its own, in some sense, the combined effect is utterly bizarre. While I certainly wouldn't suspect the authors of fringe leanings (Haspelmath is a top-notch scholar in the field), I agree we shouldn't be using it as a standalone source for things like linguistic classification or genetic trees, without a good deal of extra research on its criteria and methods. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, much of the hodgepodge is a result of grafting diverse (and sometimes mutually contradicting) classifications one on another. Nevertheless, Glottolog is good in its conservative assessment of long-range proposals—remember Ruhlen's Guide to the World's Languages? :) –Austronesier (talk) 20:04, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier:, thanks, though I stand by that 'triple hyperbole' ;-) There are simply so many errors in Glottolog's classification that 'entirely unreliable' is the only conclusion. In no way do I accuse the linguists involved to be fringe, I'm sure they are doing their best. Still, trying to create classifications for languages outside their own areas of expertise (I'm sure we all agree no linguist is an expert on all languages), and for which they have a limited knowledge of the academic literature, creates problems like these. Regarding the Celtic languages, I know the literature well enough to understand what happened. Dorian's work on East Sutherlandshire Gaelic (a marginal dialect now extinct) is the best known work on Gaelic dialectoΓlogy - and apparently the only one known to Glottolog's curators. But there is an entire literature on Gaelic dialects by linguists such as Borgstrøm, Oftedahl, Ó Murchú, Watson, Holmer, Ternes, and many others. Again, there's no accusation of bad intentions but - and I have to say - I do find it a case of hubris to put out something without knowing the literature in the field. Having published quite a number of academic works myself, having a decent h-index, and sitting on several academic editorial boards, I've rarely come across a case of academics making as broad claims as Glottolog does, with so poor sourcing. I dare say that no two linguists in the world , no matter how good could, could aspire to know the literature on all languages and accurately classify them all (I myself most certainly could not). As for Wikipedia, I don't see the need for Glottolog. There are good, reliable classifications for all languages I know. They are not all at the same place and accessible in one click, like Glottolog, but we should still prioritise accuracy over ease of access. Jeppiz (talk) 20:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

For WP purposes we should definitely limit its use as a source. Naive trust in Glottolog (usually by laypeople who fall for its taxonomic appeal) brings more harm to WP than benefit (see e.g. this discussion), especially if articles are already based on high-quality specialist sources. –Austronesier (talk) 21:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

If I may ask, how would a layperson trying to contribute to these articles go about finding better sources on classification and determine which sources should be used when some are contradictory? I've been trying to find better ones, but it's often difficult to find papers on this subject, let alone papers that aren't locked behind paywalls and can't be found elsewhere, and/or are confusing to someone without a lot of prior knowledge. I don't know if I'm not looking hard enough or if I just haven't found the magic words I need to put into Google Scholar to get it to spit out the results I need. It gets quite confusing. ~Red of Arctic Circle System (talk) 09:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• The taxonomical information on Glottolog can't be trusted, its organisation is weird for the exceptionally well-known families, god knows what is lurking in the less well-known areas. I don't see any evidence for reliability. Articles published there are as reliable as their author, if we can identify an author.

In answer to @Arctic Circle System, there really is no substitute for the academic papers in a lot of cases, I did an update of the list of language isolates which was only possible because I had a temporary contract at a university and therefore access to a large number of papers and academic texts. Even "unofficial" ways of bypassing paywalls have become much more difficult of late. Boynamedsue (talk) 09:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Much of the weirdness stems from the use of ISO-coded languages as primary data points. This is bound to fail terribly when these data points were created within a dialect continuum based on sociolinguistic criteria. Such criteria do not necessarily match comparative-historical criteria, yet comparative classifications are grafted onto these data points in Glottolog.

From my own observiations: Glottolog is actually much better with less well-known families. Africa is covered quite accurately, Austronesian is pretty good too (as I mentioned above, I actively "complain" to Hammarström when I see an error), Sagotreespirit can probably better comment about the accuracy in the South American area; Kwamikagami has good insights about how Glottolog works and also about its limitations. –Austronesier (talk) 10:56, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: The first three examples you give are dialects. I agree any italicized entries in Glottolog are completely unreliable, as I believe we still say at Wikiproject Languages. As I've said elsewhere, the dialects, i.e. those entries formatted in italics, are not from the sources listed, but blindly copied from MultiTree, where they were put together by undergrad students at EMU who generally knew less than we do. Glotto is starting to replace the dialects per RS's, but unfortunately I don't know how to tell where they have and where they haven't. Also, the tree format is misleading: where families are intended to contain a complete list of the languages they contain, the same is not true of the dialects. Scottish Gaelic is not bifurcated into Church Gaelic and East Sutherlandshire; rather, those are two entries at MultiTree that were placed (provisionally) in Scottish Gaelic, pending confirmation by RS's.

Glottolog started years ago with an outline consisting of the languages of Ethnologue and the dialects of MultiTree; not sure about the family membership, that may have been Hammarström's from the start. They've gone through and redone all families and individual languages per scholarly sources (indeed, Ethnologue and ISO have been revised to follow Glottolog's revisions in many cases), but they haven't yet gotten to the dialects other than in a few cases. IMO we should therefore completely ignore italicized entries such as Old East Norse, East Sutherlandshire Gaelic and Munster-Leinster. Where the dialects are now supported by RS's, those sources are listed and we can refer to them directly. If you come across any cases where WP copies G's treatment of dialects, please feel free to delete that material as unsourced.

For your other two cases, sources are given. You may disagree with those sources, but unlike Ethnologue they are listed for reference. For example, with Sardinian, G's source Jones (1988: 314) says, the dialects of Gallura and Sassari (spoken along the northern coast) can be classified as varieties of Italian, though they show some affinities with Sardinian. Gallurese is a variety of Southern Corsican whereas Sassarese is a hybrid dialect which evolved during the Middle Ages as a result of the close contact between the native Sardinian population of Sassari and the maritime powers of Pisa and Genoa.

Similarly, Agard (1984: 250) is a family tree of the Romance languages where "Sardo-Corsican" is a subbranch of Southern Common Romance, rather distant from the Italo-Dalmatian subbranch of the Italo-Western branch of Common Romance. If you have a state-of-the-art consensus classification of the Romance languages, we could perhaps recommend it to Glottolog. My impression is that Hammarström gives greater credence to classifications that take into account historical considerations, such as Jones (1988) above, than to the simplistic lexico-statistical comparisons that many sources rely on.

I suspect that obscure language families are going to be more coherent in G than better known ones, at least within the limits of our knowledge of them and available sources, because there are fewer contradictory sources to reconcile. Also, Hammarström has put more effort into many obscure languages and families, where he's done his own lexical and grammatical comparisons to fill in the gaps or reconcile conflicts in the sources, because the scholarly material is so poor, than into major, well-established families, where he trusts standard sources to get it right and doesn't expect to be able to do better himself.

The sad fact is that there is no true RS for the world's languages. For example, neither Ethnologue, Glottolog nor ISO are RS's for Chinese. AFAICT, there is no RS for the Chinese languages anywhere in the world's literature. None of the major ISO/Ethn/Glotto "languages" in the Chinese family are actually languages, and AFAICT the research to fill out the family does not exist. And that's for Chinese! But of the sources available, Glottolog is the best, assuming you know to ignore the dialects. At least it provides the sources it's based on, so we can go directly to those sources. It's certainly a good place to find sources on individual languages and classifications. — kwami (talk) 19:23, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm surprised that Glottolog is being discussed on this noticeboard. Glottolog is not perfect, but what else do we have? It's the most comprehensive open-access bibliographic database of world languages that currently exists, and is more useful and more accurate than Ethnologue in many ways. Ethnologue has a lot of inaccurate information that never gets updated, runs through opaque bureaucracy, and has many other issues that Glottolog doesn't have. Plus, Glottolog and Ethnologue are the two most reliable and comprehensive sources that we have for the world's languages, and neither are WP:FRINGE. All other websites are really incomplete databases (MultiTree and others). Please keep in mind that linguistics databases are generally poorly developed compared to bioinformatics. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 02:19, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Black Book of Communism

(Redacted) FF toho (talk) 15:58, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I concur and would suggest that (once consensus is established) that we make sure it's not treated uncritically anywhere in Wikipedia. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

• It's absolutely not a reliable source, though reference to it could be used carefully in situations where it is immediately contradicted by more reliable sources. Generally best to leave it out where we are merely trying to show accurate numerical data though. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:31, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Harvard University Press did not retract its version of the book, which it still sells on its website. What are you talking about? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:32, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

• Discussing this book again? IMO, we should discuss each chapter differently. It seems to me some chapters are RS, some are not. But the general rule should be: attribute whenever you are using this book as a source. It shouldnt be WP VOICE. Cinadon36 17:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I just want to highlight that this comment is an almost direct copy of this Reddit comment, and should therefore probably be removed as a copyright violation. Sam Walton (talk) 17:03, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree with @Samwalton9. Cinadon36 17:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Samwalton9 and Cinadon36: I've listed it on the relevant copyright problems page. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:17, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I've blocked for the pattern of copyvios. Izno (talk) 20:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

The last time this was discussed the consensus seems to be that the source is fine to be included but should always be attributed. I think this is a reasonable approach and should be retained. — Czello 18:46, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

• Generally reliable but use with attribution. As has already been established in numerous discussions. Sheesh. Volunteer Marek 09:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

FF toho has been blocked.Xx236 (talk) 10:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Birmingham Mail

I initially questioned the reliability of Birmingham Mail only because it's owned by Reach plc, which also owns deprecated Daily Mail and still questionable Daily Mirror. I just now undid tagging on Birmingham Mail after I received a message comparing Reach to News UK, owner of The Sun (deprecated) and The Times of London (generally reliable), and stating that more than three thousand articles, including several FAs and GAs, cite Birmingham Mail for their own statements. I can't help wonder whether either I was generalizing Reach plc inappropriately or the source itself may not be as reliable as generally perceived to be. George Ho (talk) 20:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC); my bad, 21:33, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The Daily Mail isn't owned by Reach plc. It's owned by the Daily Mail and General Trust. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Correction: Reach plc does not publish the Daily Mail, which is published by the Daily Mail and General Trust. Reach plc is a major publisher in the UK that publishes both major national newspapers (some of which are unreliable, like the Daily Express), as well as many local newspapers. I don't think it's fair to judge a newspaper by its stablemates, just as we shouldn't judge i (newspaper) (which is considered generally reliable) for being owned by the Daily Mail and General Trust. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:20, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• What do other reliable sources have to say about the Birmingham Mail? --Jayron32 14:47, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  Couldn't find independent reliable sources covering its reliability. And I couldn't find any useful info from the article's sources unless I overlooked something. George Ho (talk) 07:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:List of Eagle Scouts § Citations that are almost impossible to verify

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of Eagle Scouts § Citations that are almost impossible to verify. How to improve a citation that does not provide sufficient verifiability. Sundayclose (talk) 14:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

• I do understand your frustration with how the source in question is set up, but (with effort) you can verify. Remember that our standard is not easy verification, but simply that verification is possible. Blueboar (talk) 20:58, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Progarchy: Reliable source?

Progarchy is a website dedicated to progressive rock. Its "About" page[85] includes "Our goal is to support beautiful music, specifically progressive rock in all its varied forms, through album reviews, interviews, concert reviews, and articles. We are all volunteers." It lists three "Editors", a number of "Progarchists" (contributors), and appears to be well-organized. Currently, it's used as a source in 19 WP articles.[86]

The similarly named Prog Archives is listed on WP:NOTRSMUSIC with this discussion and received some discussion here, but there doesn't appear to be a connection. The reliability of Progarchy was brought up at WT:ALBUMS#Progarchy, but was unresolved. Should Progarchy be considered a reliable source for WP purposes? Or perhaps just selected contributors?

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Chara Biz.com

Is www.charabiz.com a reliable source for Japanese sales data?

source is videly used at List of highest-grossing media franchises and other Japanese Franchise articles.(such as Anpanman [87] for example) Timur9008 (talk) 11:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

This appears to be a kind of "about us" page. Google translate is a bit garbled but they seem to just republish press releases, they seem reliable but probably of no use for proving notability. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:01, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. So its ok to remove this source from these articles then? Would love some more imput and if possible get some consensus. Timur9008 (talk) 17:15, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

It's probably good for sales figures, but a secondary source would be better -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:07, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Charabiz is a pretty big player in its field, not just some site republishing press releases. They cooperate in the Japan Character Awards, which in turn is supported by the Japanese government. They use the name "Character Databank" along with Charabiz[88] and searching for "Character Databank" you can see they sometimes get cited by reliable sources, in particular their character rankings. NY Times cited their rankings and described them as a "research firm" in 2010.[89] and ditto LA Times in 2014.[90] But as per their English language company profile[91] they also work in marketing, so that's a caveat.

Their publications appear to be intended for use within the industry rather than for the general public, and I'm unsure how Wikipedia should handle them. But I would say at the very least their own publications can be cited, with WP:DUE in mind and with attribution. And any press releases published by them should be treated as WP:SPS from the companies in question.

As for how sales numbers from them are used in the chart in the Anpanman article as hard data, essentially in WP:WIKIVOICE, that might be a bit more questionable. Also, unrelated to this board but just as a practical matter, given the history of this type of articles being edited by a sock of a user banned for misuse of sources (User:Maestro2016) I seriously question if the citations to the Charabiz publications have actually been verified. These publications are $200-300 a piece[92] and the Anpanman article references a half dozen or so of them. Siawase (talk) 12:25, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I asked regarding the site because Maestro2016 who is now banned has used it. Timur9008 (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

I think the practical thing to do for now would be to remove material cited by Maestro2016 to Charabiz. If/when some editor who isn't banned gets access to Charabiz publications the issue of how to use them can be revisited. I looked at the history of sockpuppet investigations, and Maestro2016 and socks have a pattern of specifically misusing difficult to obtain sources[93] so there is no reason to believe these were accurately cited. Siawase (talk) 22:26, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Is this okay?

Hello I wanted to know if this action by an editor is valid [94]. I mean as they have explained in their edit summary, the mention of "emails" it's absolutely not. The sources are taken from Goanet a mailing list/web forum, possibly like Usenet which involves discussions of many journalists or editors. How can this possibly not be used as a reliable source? Also here's the discussion on WP:HD, Wikipedia:Helpdesk#November 19 ✠ Rejoy2003 ✠ (contact) 13:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a mailing list/forum can be considered a reliable source. Who wrote these emails? Why should we believe what they wrote? Even if satisfactory answers can be provided to both questions, how can we be sure that the emails are reproduced faithfully on mail-archive.com? Alaexis_¿question? 07:24, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Web fourms can be considered reliable as per WP:USENET. They've been written by experts, say editors from different publications and other important people. A google search with the names provides enough info of the same. Why should we believe? Because that's linked to their personal mails and is SIGNED by them. To learn more about Goanet you can check out the about info on it's webpage, here [95]. They also have a site available. You can also refer to my discussion at WP:HD if you have any questions ✠ Rejoy2003 ✠ (contact) 10:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

You are right that a forum or mailing list *may* be reliable. However the onus is on you to demonstrate it if you want to use it as a source. Who wrote emails that you want to use? Why can they be considered an expert? Alaexis_¿question? 10:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I've explained it above and said more than once. The names of those who have written have their opinions or content is "mentioned" in the forums. Why they can be considered an expert? Because the internet says so. You yourself can do a google search on the names mentioned in the forum. Some of them have mentioned from which publication they represent. What's not to believe that they're NOT experts in their respective fields when sources say so? ✠ Rejoy2003 ✠ (contact) 16:01, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

This is not what the policy says

“ That is why self-published material such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources. ”

If the inclusion of this source has been challenged, the onus is on you to demonstrate that the source satisfies these criteria. Cheers, Alaexis_¿question? 20:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Alaexis, I haven't denied about the inclusion of these authors or editors in reliable sources, since Goanet is run by volunteers too which are itself experienced expert people like here's an snippet mention about the article subject here by Bosco Dmello, [96], a more detailed information about volunteers on Goanet and some of history can be found here by Navhind Times here [97]. I don't believe some random person being on the admin team of two decades old mailing list/general forum. Of course the onus is on me, I'm not that naive to include literally any junk as additional citations in an article. I simply cannot comprehend WHY these sources cannot be considered reliable yet despite their history and their team of volunteers. ✠ Rejoy2003 ✠ (contact) 12:26, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

If you want to use these sources you need to answer two questions

1. Who wrote emails that you want to use? You need to provide names rather than sending other editors to look for them somewhere.
2. Why can they be considered experts? Here you need to show that they satisfy the criteria from WP:SPS, that is, their "work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." Again, you need to provide them rather than telling people to google them.

This is what the policies say. If you provide the answers no one will be against including it. Alaexis_¿question? 14:13, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Lmao, I just gave an example of Bosco though. Did you check that? I'm not sure you're reading everything of my reply are you? Though I completely agree on your take at this and keeping it simple. ✠ Rejoy2003 ✠ (contact) 18:07, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

An interesting example of one of the mail archives mentioned is at Maria Aurora Couto, [98]. Ignoring copyright concerns (ugh), it's a copy-paste of a book review by a person (Mario Cabral) with other reviews in Wikipedia articles and is published by The Tehelka which appears to be a solid source. If this was an email from Cabral (and the email address was one that Cabral was known to use) that was a review, and not a casual response, I would support the use as a source. Ravensfire (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

And if the mail is the only source for the whatever, should it be used per WP:PROPORTION? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:49, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Questions on WP:PROPORTION is irrelevant and is not an issue. These sources are NOT the only source for the "whatever", rather they're used as additional citations for a much better reading or to support the statements present in the article. ✠ Rejoy2003 ✠ (contact) 16:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

First, thank you again for the lack of notification, Rejoy2003. Please don't ask others to review an editors actions without notifying them. Second, if the material is supported by a good, secondary reliable source, a poor quality source like this is NOT needed. WP:OVERCITE - when you only need one good source, use only that. Emails from random people without editorial oversight are not going to be good sources. Ravensfire (talk) 16:27, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Asking for further review

In a series of edits [99], Rejoy2003 has added back nearly all of the email sources I had removed. I'd like for some outside review on the sources. Note that most of the time, these are in addition to other sources and I really don't think they are needed, but Rejoy2003 is pushing hard to keep them in for some reason.

• Multiple e-mails from Miguel Braganza, with an edit summary on the first of "Author is Miguel Braganza. A noted editor from Goa and has several publications in his name, read [100]" Braganza is a horticulturist, and I would be glad to take them as an expert there, but the context isn't around horticulture - [101],
• Joel Morais, with an edit summary that says they are published at [102] which looks like a great editorial, but call them an expert for this as a source [103]?
• Rajan Parrikar, with an edit summary noting research at [104] with 4 papers from 1991 - 2002 related to electrical engineering, but the source [105] is a reprint of a letter to the editor from a blogger. First, not an expert in this area and second, this isn't the actual author of the editorial.

Thanks for your thoughts. Ravensfire (talk) 15:24, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Kotaku

Should this Kotaku article's opinions be included on Rawson Stovall? — VORTEX³⁴²⁷ (Talk!) 07:55, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

It is clearly an opinion piece. I think most people would agree that Kotaku is sufficiently reliable for WP:RSOPINION pieces about figures in gaming; but the question is often whether that particular opinion is WP:DUE. My recommendation for situations like that is to look for other places with similar opinions and combine them into one or two sentences; if there are no other sources expressing any even remotely similar opinion, then opinion pieces are often WP:UNDUE unless they reflect the opinion of people with some sort of expertise or whose personal opinion is somehow manifestly relevant. But the question of due-ness is often more appropriate for WP:NPOVN (or WP:BLPN, for BLPs like that one.) --Aquillion (talk) 09:13, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

In addition to what Aquillion said, the substance on Stovall in the Kotaku article appears to be taken from an old Newsweek article, and it's probably better to just cite that Newsweek article directly. Siawase (talk) 10:07, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Ukraine

The founder and chief editor of Encyclopedia of Ukraine was a major Nazi collaborator Volodymyr Kubijovyč who during the war worked closely under Hans Frank in GG. Among other things Volodymyr Kubijovyč was an originator and funder of 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS responsible for war atrocities. After the war Kubijovyč settled in the West.

Is the Encyclopedia of Ukraine a reliable source for WW2 history?

Example:

I’ll present you an article about Ukrainian Nazi collaborator and war criminal Roman Shukhevych responsible for the massacres of approximately 100,000 civilians.

• This is what we say about Roman Shukhevych
• This is what Encyclopedia of Ukraine says about Roman Shukhevych

Notice that in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine there is not a single word about the atrocities Shukhevych committed. Examples of such white-washing in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine are plenty, including the article about Kubijovyč himself, were he describes himself as: exceptional organizer and statesman (while working for the Nazis). - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:48, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I have posted a link to this discussion at Talk:Encyclopedia of Ukraine and the WikiProjects it belongs to: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Reference works, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Books.  —Michael Z. 04:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Unlikely Allies covers the issue and role of Volodymyr Kubiiovych in details. quote - ..reconstructs and contextualizes the activities of the Ukrainian Central Committee (UTs) in Krakow under Volodymyr Kubiiovych, the top Ukrainian collaborator in occupied Poland. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:46, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

What does it say about the Encyclopedia of Ukraine as a reliable source on WWII?  —Michael Z. 22:01, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Can you research the editors of the subjects listed in Category:German encyclopedias next? Gotta be some Nazis there.  —Michael Z. 22:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mzajac Can you move your comments into the Discussion section, this is not a please for it. Thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:18, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

No. I’m commenting directly to your problematic statement in the RFC. You didn’t write “a brief, neutral statement of or question about the issue” per WP:RFCST, so it’s on you. —Michael Z. 23:59, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Hm. I see I was replying to a comment posted two days after the RFC, anyway. But your RFC statement is factually incorrect where it states that Kubijovyč “describes himself” as something in an article that he didn’t write, so I think you should strike that out before it’s challenged with more clutter.  —Michael Z. 00:04, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Post your opinion below please

• No - not for the WW2 history. For everything else, perhaps yes. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:18, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Rossoliński-Liebe writes:

• Kubijovyč was .. sharing with the Nazis many political convictions, including antisemitism and other racism. On 18 April 1941, he petitioned General Governor Hans Frank to purge “Polish and Jewish elements” from the ethnic Ukrainian territories within the General Government. (page 155)
• The Germans considered Kubiiovych to be more loyal to them and thus more appropriate for a Ukrainian leader.. (page 177)
• Kubiiovych asked Hans Frank, head of the General Government, to set up an ethnically pure Ukrainian enclave there, free from Jews and Poles...Kubiiovych asked Frank for a “Ukrainian National Army” or Ukrainian Wehrmacht, which would fight alongside the German Wehrmacht against the Red Army and the “Jewified English-American plutocracy”..Kubiiovych asked Frank to have “a very significant part of confiscated Jewish wealth turned over to the Ukrainian people. (page 226)
• ... that in the first Encyclopedia of Ukrainian Kubiiovych presented a nationalist narrative of the Second World War in Ukraine and did not even include an entry on the Holocaust. (page 405) -

GizzyCatBella🍁 10:10, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a clear example of an ad hominem attack. It doesn’t say a single word about the source under discussion based on reliable sources or academic reviews.

The various edition of the Encyclopedia of Ukraine were edited and written by hundreds of contributors. Kubijovyč died in 1985, before the completion of the final English-language version, a product of the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at the University of Alberta Faculty of Arts and published by the University of Toronto Press. It is unreal to imply it is some kind of Nazi publication.

It’s true that the much shorter Shukhevych article[106] doesn’t cover alleged UPA atrocities, on which subject Wikipedia’s article goes on at length, yet still fails to give a satisfying summary of the difficult Ukrainian politics of memory surrounding WWII between the Nazi and communist empires, a subject that remains complicated and controversial (and currently clouded by the mass of war propaganda). So what does, e.g., Britannica say?[107]

The ad hominem arguments are grasping at straws to attack the encyclopedia.

For example: “in the first Encyclopedia of Ukrainian” (1st ed. 1949–1952, presumably) “did not even include an entry on the Holocaust.” Hm, Britannica, for example, added an article on the Holocaust in 1998.[108] Have we politically vetted the personal history and opinions of Britannica’s first managing editor to determine whether it is an acceptable source? The Internet edition of the Encyclopedia of Ukraine has an article on the Holocaust.[109] Let’s do the same for other major sources?

Kubijovyč “describes himself as” nothing. The authors of the article are clearly identified at the bottom.[110]  —Michael Z. 19:32, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that Britannica had an an article on the Holocaust before 1998, this is the year when it was "added to new online database." The article on London was added in 1998 as well, so probably they just imported their existing articles en masse. Alaexis_¿question? 20:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Maybe so. I would be curious when, and highly doubt it was by 1952 since the Library of Congress added the subject heading in 1968 and I don’t believe the name was widely known in English until 1978. Anyway, this argument is absolute pants. —Michael Z. 20:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

More on usage of the name in Names of the Holocaust#The Holocaust.  —Michael Z. 21:10, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes  The Encyclopedia of Ukraine is a better source on Ukraine in WWII than practically any other single source. The field of history is barely sorting out Ukrainian memory politics now, in the midst of a blizzard of anti-Ukrainian war propaganda, and it is unfair to pick on a suspected blind spot to disqualify the work, without any reference to reliable sources or academic reviews of it. As mentioned in discussion below, it is a tertiary source, extremely useful, but as such we should supplement or replace it with secondary sources when we can. —Michael Z. 20:47, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  Some reviews [edit: added 1]:

  • Dmytro M. Shtohryn and Robert H. Burger, “Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Volume 1: A-F. Edited by Volodymyr Kubijovyč et al.,” Slavic Review, v 45, n 1 (Spring 1986), pp 106–108.

    “This first of four volumes of the Encyclopedia of Ukraine is the most advanced reference work on Ukraine in the English language.”

  • James Cracraft, “Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Volume II: G–K. Edited by Volodymyr Kubijovyč,” Slavic Review, v 48, n 2 (Summer 1989), pp 318–19.[111]

    “This being said, the present volume is a most worthy effort. If it fairly represents the others in the series (only the first, which I have not seen, has so far appeared), this Encyclopedia of Ukraine will be the standard reference work for all things Ukrainian for some time to come. Students of Russia, Poland, and the rest of Eastern Europe will find it a most useful compendium as well. Any library supporting serious work in these fields should want to have it . . .”

  • Myroslav Shkandrij, “Danylo Husar Struk, editor in chief. Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Volumes 3–5,” Journal of Ukrainian Studies, v 18, n 1 (Summer 1993): pp 225–.[112]

    “Ukrainian scholarship can be a fractious business, but the Encyclopedia appears to have won the admiration, indeed the enthusiastic endorsement, of almost all reviewers.”

  • Oleh Gerus, “Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Volume III, edited by Danylo Husar Struk” (book review), Canadian Journal of History/Annales Canadiennes d’Histoire, v 29, n 2 (August 1, 1994): pp 446–449.[113][114]

    “As far as one can determine, there are no major errors in this volume. The qualitative composition of the editorial board should assure the reader of the credibility of the encyclopaedia.”

   —Michael Z. 21:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  More sources:

  • Ivashkiv, Roman (2020-11-09). "Translator's Essay". Quiet Spiders of the Hidden Soul. Academic Studies Press. doi:10.1515/9781644693964-035/html. ISBN 978-1-64469-396-4. "Explanations of historical and cultural concepts and brief biographical data about Ukrainian writers and public figures come primarily from the Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine (hosted by the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies), one of the most credible and comprehensive yet also concise online sources about Ukraine."
  • Starko, Vasyl (September 2007). "Historical Dictionary of Ukraine, Zenon E. Kohut, Bohdan Y. Nebesio and Myroslav Yurkevich (Lanham, MD, Toronto, Oxford: Scarecrow Press, 2005), liii, 854 pp". Nationalities Papers. 34 (5): 649–651. doi:10.1017/S0090599200011533. ISSN 0090-5992. "The six-volume Encyclopedia of Ukraine (Toronto, 1984-2001) is the most comprehensive compendium of information on Ukraine in English...Its [The dictionary's] reliance on many years of research and work that went into the Encyclopedia [of Ukraine] has resulted in remarkably well-balanced, clear presentation."

  Tristario (talk) 07:51, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  Addressing one of the few criticisms of the actual source rather than ad hominem comes from Rossoliński-Liebe 2014:452.

  This project, on the one hand, gave rise to a useful and authoritative encyclopedia of Ukrainian history, but, on the other hand, it presented a nationalist narrative of the Second World War in Ukraine and did not even include an entry on the Holocaust”

  This is presented unfairly as a criticism (perhaps exemplifying the criticisms of and controversies surrounding Rossoliński-Liebe’s book).[115][116][117][118]

  Useful and authoritative.  Okay (but it is not only an encyclopedia of history).

  Nationalist narrative.  Nationalism is not inherently negative and has a range of meanings including “identification with one’s own nation” and “advocacy of or support for the political independence of a nation.” That the Encyclopedia of Ukraine is a national encyclopedia is self-evident from its title. Our article encyclopedia gives other examples: the Great Soviet Encyclopedia and Encyclopaedia Judaica.

  No “Holocaust” entry.  The Encyclopedia of Ukraine was first published in Ukrainian starting in 1949 when the name Holocaust wasn’t even used as we know it today (Names of the Holocaust tells us that it first became a Library of Congress subject heading in 1968 and became popularly recognized from 1978.) The full English-language translation of the dictionary part was a monumental 5-volume direct derivative started in 1984. The entry “Holocaust” by Dieter Pohl was added to the online version in 2007. Perhaps it can be accepted that an entire relatively new field of study wasn’t added to an already ambitious print translation project conducted by a diaspora in exile.

  But is it a valid criticism at all? Compare to an even bigger and presumably much better-funded project:

  • 1973, Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 11, 14th revised ed., p 605[119]

    Entry “Holmium” followed by “Holography”

  • 1974, Encyclopedia Britannica Micropedia, Volume V, 15th ed., pp 94–95[120]

    The full text of the entry, with uncapitalized title: “holocaust, usually a sacrifice or destruction by fire. The term is also used to refer to the Nazi slaughter of the European Jews.
    - effects on Christian attitudes 10:325h
    - German occupation of Poland 14:653b
    - Jewish impact and ramifications 10:300h
    - rationale in Christian polemic 4:467d”

  • 1976, Encyclopedia Britannica Macropedia, Volume 8, 15th ed., p 98[121]

    Entry “Holmes, Oliver Wendell” followed by “Holocene Epoch”

  • 2003, Encyclopedia Britannica Macropedia, Volume 20, 15th ed., p 629–634[122]

    The Holocaust, full article and four pages of plates.

  • 2005, Encyclopedia Britannica Micropedia, Volume 6, 15th ed., pp 13–14[123]

    Holocaust [1 column], Holocaust Remembrance days [1½ columns]

  Only the final print edition of Britannica had a real entry on the Holocaust. The online Britannica published its article in 1998.[124] I presume the first printing to get one must have been around the same time.  —Michael Z. 21:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes (with caveats) As above a number of decent scholarly sources clearly indicate that it's a well respected source. However, it's somewhat out of date, and some important scholarship relating to WWII has been conducted since 1990 (relating to previously inaccessible archives becoming available following the collapse of the Soviet Union), and it may be biased on certain topics, both of which should be kept in mind. I agree with the comments by Mzajac, the background of the founder doesn't necessarily tell you about the source itself. The apparent whitewashing of certain figures likely partially relates to the fact that certain archives and scholarship weren't available back then. David Marples comments about the lack of access to former soviet archives back then here for instance. --Tristario (talk) 08:19, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  The volume of errata to the English-language edition was published in 2001. The Internet version is updated on an ongoing basis (e.g., the article on Kharkiv National university is updated 2021, per the note at the bottom).[125]  —Michael Z. 14:21, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  Then when the specific article was updated should be considered. I assume the errata just corrected errors though, and didn't try to bring it up to date Tristario (talk) 23:06, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  Agree, updates could be considered and like someone already said, I’m also open to revisiting the question of reliability of Encyclopedia of Ukraine in the future. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Generally no, not for WW2 stuff, although there may be some exceptions which can be discussed on case by case basis. Problems with reliability aren't just who started the encyclopedia but the fact it hasn't been updated, AFAIK, since 2001 or 2003. Ukraine today is a very different place than it was 20 years ago. I'm open to revisiting this question in the future. Volunteer Marek 09:35, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  The online encyclopedia is updated regularly on an article-by-article basis, and some major-article bibliographies are updated separately. Many WWII articles are dated 1993, but we also see, for example, History of Ukraine 1993 with latest bibliography entry 2011, Holocaust 2007–08, Operation Wisła refers to 2002, bibliography includes 2013, Ukrainian Canadian Servicemen’s Association 2014.  —Michael Z. 14:59, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  Let's see..let's take a look at the first link you gave us History of Ukraine and let's scroll down to this part as an example:

  On 30 June 1941, the OUN (Bandera faction) issued the Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood, 1941, in Lviv and formed the Ukrainian State Administration headed by Yaroslav Stetsko.

  What's missing there? Well, the Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood, in 1941 was accompanied by violent pogroms conducted by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists where thousands of Jews lost their lives. But wait, there is not a single word about it in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine. So let's take a look at the Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood, 1941 article itself. Perhaps is there? Nope, not a single word. Okay, so let's search the Encyclopedia of Ukraine for the Lviv pogroms of 1941 article. Nope, nothing about it. Do you mind guiding us to the link in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine? - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  I guess Wikipedia is a bad source on WWII because Act of restoration of the Ukrainian state doesn’t mention the Lviv pogroms either. Maybe a Nazi worked on Wikipedia. Let’s dox all the editors and get to the bottom of this.  —Michael Z. 20:15, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  The extermination of the Jews during WW2 is covered as follows:

  • Mass murder of Jews was carried out throughout Ukraine in 1942–4. Apart from the involvement of individuals and some organized auxiliary units, the Ukrainian population did not take part in these genocidal actions Jews.
  • During the Second World War a small number of individual Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis in victimizing the Jews. This, however, cannot really be considered a conspicuous example of Ukrainian [antisemitism] for three reasons... Anti-Semitism.
  • As part of their systematic effort to exterminate the Jews of Europe (see Holocaust) the Nazis rounded up and killed Jews living in Ukraine ... The Germans' Romanian allies, who occupied Transnistria, also committed war crimes (no mention of Ukrainian responsibilities) Nazi war crimes in Ukraine.
  • The article Holocaust (written in 2007 by Dieter Pohl), however, is a good article, although the following sentence may be a bit of an understatement: There is no doubt that the murder of the Jews was committed by the Third Reich and organized and carried out primarily by Germans and Austrians. Nevertheless, owing to a lack of personnel, these perpetrators of genocidal crimes relied heavily on indigenous auxiliaries ... At least some of the auxiliary police troops, the Schutzmannschafts-Bataillone, participated in the killings. Ukrainian auxiliaries were the main target of criminal investigation after 1943–44. Probably several thousand of them were tried by Soviet courts and received severe punishment. Among the main criminals responsible for the Holocaust in general, however, only some two hundred Germans and Austrians faced justice in other countries.

  Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

• Generally yes but with serious caveats. I wouldn't deprecate the Encyclopedia as such, as it may be (unless proven otherwise) factually accurate and may contain information that would otherwise not be available. However, I think it is a WP:BIASED source with strong nationalist leanings that make it occasionally unreliable and not authoritative as far as the assessment of historical events is concerned. Take the articles on "Jews" [126], "Pogroms" [127] and "Anti-Semitism" [128] as examples. The first two are informative and helpful, although at times questionable in their effort to present the Ukrainian people under the best possible light. But the article on "Anti-Semitism" is entirely apologetic and based on questionable distinctions: the distinction between genuine antisemitism deriving from "prejudice", and false antisemitism (mere "hostility") deriving from "significant socio-economic or political conflicts"; and the distinction between genuinely Ukrainian antisemitism, i.e. manifested by Ukrainians, and antisemitism manifested within Ukraine by others, such as the Russians and the Poles. The consequence of these distinctions is that it is difficult to identify major instances of a-s, in the specific sense of prejudice and not simply hostility, that have a demonstrably Ukrainian character. I don't want to have this POV included in Wikipedia. To sum up, IMHO:

1. It is a reliable source, but it is also a biased source when Ukrainian national identity is concerned;
2. Its bias does not affect only the articles on WW2 but also other areas of the Encyclopedia. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:54, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

The three articles you linked to are dated as last updated respectively in 1988 (note: “it will be updated”), 1993, and 1984, while others have been updated as recently as 2022 (e.g., Crimea). All sources have biases and dating, and the Encyclopedia of Ukraine’s annotations help us identify the respective article’s context, and its updates help keep articles relevant.

What do you mean by “is also a biased source when Ukrainian national identity is concerned”?  —Michael Z. 15:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

What I meant to say is that their treatment of antisemitism suggests that the Encyclopaedia's intentions are partly apologetic (see above some quotations). Therefore when the topic of the article impinges upon Ukrainian national identity (vis-a-vis the Jews, and possibly other groups) some bias is to be expected. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:49, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

• Not reliable for WWII, I actually doubt its reliable for anything but there may be a use case. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:45, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes The source looks generally reliable for general history of WWII, with attribution. An English translation was published by University of Toronto Press. Seems kind of like Encyclopedia Britannica for the British. People have complained about the Encyclopedia Britannica too on some of its articles, but that is generally because these are encyclopedias, not extensive or exhaustive sources. Seems to have positive responses from Ukrainian experts as has been mentioned by others here. I would argue that ATTRIBUTION would solve any issues in this particular case. That way it is not in wikipedia's voice and allows for a Ukrainian view of events.Ramos1990 (talk) 01:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Ramos1990 lol...last time I checked Encyclopedia Britannica wasn’t narrated by former high ranking Nazi collaborators, was it? 🙂 - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:01, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

I think this has been extensively answered by Michael Z.. He brings up some reasonable points. However it started is secondary to how it has evolved and how it is used today. University of Toronto Press would probably have never touched it if it was Nazi propaganda.Ramos1990 (talk) 06:36, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

I don’t believe you have checked. You’re only on a crusade about Kubijovyč and everything he’s touched, based on one biased source that mentions him in passing. British fascism goes back to 1922. Go on and get your research project going. Or are you going to stake your reputation on the assertion that the Britannica editions cited throughout Wikipedia have absolutely no racial, ethnic, class, or cultural biases, hm? —Michael Z. 18:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• I'm neutral since I don't have enough knowledge of the underlying dispute, but this RfC is a blatant violation WP:RFCNEUTRAL. Your argument that this was written by a Nazi collaborator should go down here, not in the RfC prompt. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:05, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Chess Read the RfC again please - where RfC says - was written by a Nazi collaborator? Please adjust your comment, thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:15, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  @GizzyCatBella: I don't actually know that much about whether or not editors of real encyclopedias (i.e. not Wikipedia, where almost all editors are writers) engage in the writing of them. Regardless, The founder and chief editor of Encyclopedia of Ukraine was a major Nazi collaborator Volodymyr Kubijovyč who during the war worked closely under Hans Frank in GG. Among other things Volodymyr Kubijovyč was an originator and funder of 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS responsible for war atrocities. After the war Kubijovyč settled in the West. should be in your reply to the RfC, not above the RfC statement and given prominence. All of your arguments should be below the Post your opinion below please line. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  👍 @Chess Well, next time. Now is too late. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:25, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. This is a tertiary/overview source, but I think it can be used along with other tertiary sources such "Encyclopedia of Nationalism", EB, etc. Was it criticized in RS for producing "fakes"? Are authors known as revisionist historians? No, it does not seem to be the case. Someone (one of editors-in-chief) collaborating in the past with bad guys" or even being himself a member of a bad organization in past (let's say Communist party or KGB) does not automatically disqualify sources. Is the source known for fact checking/accuracy or for promoting misinformation? Only that matters. My very best wishes (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• There are definitely better sources out there. The encyclopedia is dated - the earliest volumes come from 1949 and the latest were published barely after independence (see here) - this is so old that in a lot of cases, it will basically be meaningless to represent current scholarly consensus. This is basically the greatest concern. I also looked at some of the more controversial articles (like OUN or UPA) and I'd say that the greatest flaw is not that what they tell is false but what they omit. You'd expect an article about the Volyn massacre/genocide/whatever but you won't see one, not even a mention; though it does mention that the Poles launched a mass campaign of Polonisation in the pre-war era and that the Home Army killed thousands of Ukrainians in 1942 (see Subtelny, History of Ukraine, 4 ed., p. 474-475). You won't see in the Cossack-Polish War article (Khmelnytsky Uprising) that Jews were among the most traumatized in the conflict - it only says that Jews largely allied with the Polish nobility. The bias is evident and palpable, so I wouldn't trust it for the whole picture, but it seems OK for what it says. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:20, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• YES per Michael. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 17:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Discussion (Encyclopedia of Ukraine)

It's obviously biased, perhaps extremely so (the article about it also says it). It doesn't mean that it's automatically unreliable, but considering that it's a WP:TERTIARY source, I think we can almost always find a better source. Alaexis_¿question? 10:07, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alaexis Exactly. So how should we approach the issue? Always ask for a better source? GizzyCatBella🍁 10:14, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and for uncontroversial claims, add {{better source needed}}, for controversial ones, remove I guess. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:42, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Also it should not be used to determine the due weight. Alaexis_¿question? 20:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Kubijovyč authored over 80 scientific pieces on the geography of Ukraine. I'm sure those are very sound. I have no objection to using Encyclopedia of Ukraine as a reference on the geography, for example. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:05, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I lean towards thinking it's not automatically unreliable, it's going to be biased for sure, however, it may also be useful for certain other information. In the case of Shukhevych, for example, I see that other biographical treatments of him, which are widely considered neutral (I think) and factually accurate, use it as a source: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Biographical_Dictionary_of_Central_and_E/RnKlDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=2473 Cononsense (talk) 11:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The maps of Ukraine in this encyclopedia is excellent for its time and is very high-quality. Very reliable. The rest of it is probably too old to be reliable. Ghost of Kiev (talk) 17:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The sole source supporting the “diaspora bias” accusation is Oleh Romaniv, w:uk:Романів Олег Миколайович, a Soviet expert in extractive metallurgy and construction material properties, who changed his specialty to historical memory and politological aspects of the Ukrainian national revival in 1992. The following year he wrote this assessment of the encyclopedia, in the same year he personally initiated the 1993–2003 reprint of the original Ukrainian-language edition in Ukraine. —Michael Z. 03:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

It’s even better. The cited source is in Romaniv’s essay in Volume I of the Ukrainian-language reprint.[129]  —Michael Z. 04:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mzajac You wrote alleged UPA atrocities (!?) Seriously? That says a lot. - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:54, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

What does it say, @GizzyCatBella? That you’re adding innuendo to your ad hominem arguments?  —Michael Z. 14:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

No, what I’m saying is that there is nothing alleged about UPA atrocities and historians agree on it. Do you claim otherwise? Encyclopedia of Ukraine is indeed silent (not a single word) about atrocities UPA commited. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella I meant all the alleged atrocities, including proven, unproven, and disproven, okay? Because I haven’t reviewed both articles for discrepancies and accuracy, and I’m not an expert on the topic.

But what is your point? That I’m a Nazi or something? Stick to the fucking topic.  —Michael Z. 16:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I didn’t say you are a Nazi or something. Stop. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:59, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

You implied something when you said I wrote something and “that says a lot.” I think you probably didn’t mean to cast aspersions on me but it was a poor choice of words. I’d appreciate it if you said so. —Michael Z. 20:01, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

The poor choice of words was yours... "alleged atrocities" was the wrong language to use and you know that. Please apologize to GizzyCatBella. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:18, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

I really doubt that Mzajac was saying that there is doubt that the UPA committed atrocities. His explanation seems reasonable. Lots of people put "alleged" if they're just talking about something they don't have a lot of knowledge about (it's commonly done among journalists for all sorts of topics, for instance). Tristario (talk) 23:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

(Summoned by bot) Does this source make incorrect statements, or does it omit correct and WP:DUE statements? From the statements made here, my understanding is that it is the latter, in which case it is reliable but biased, and can be used, in conjunction with other sources, to produce a policy-compliant article. However, this does demonstrate why permitting articles to exist with only a single WP:SIGCOV source violates WP:NPOV - such an article reflects that sources POV, not NPOV. BilledMammal (talk) 01:44, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@BilledMammal

The bias of the Encyclopedia of Ukraine is discussed in scholarly publications including what I already linked.

• Here - page 405

The head of this important academic project was Volodymyr Kubiiovych, one of the major Ukrainian collaborators with the Nazis, and who, after the Second World War, became the S.S.S. This project, on the one hand, gave rise to a useful and authoritative encyclopedia of Ukrainian history, but, on the other hand, it presented a nationalist narrative of the Second World War in Ukraine and did not even include an entry on the Holocaust.

• also (some of those contributed to the development of that Encyclopedia) page 405

The heroic discourse on the OUN-UPA and the “liberation movement” was shaped by a number of other historians and activists, in addition to Poltava and Mirchuk. Some of them were members of the OUN-B, such as Volodymyr Kosyk, Ivan Hryn’okh, Iaroslav Stets’ko, Mykola Klymyshyn, Stepan Lenkavs’kyi, Stepan Bandera himself, Volodymyr Ianiv, Mykola Lebed’, Roman Ilnytzkyi and Taras Hunchak. Others such as Petro Potichnyj were veterans of the UPA, and still others of the Waffen-SS Galizien, such as Vasyl’ Veryha, Oleksa Horbatsch, Roman Drazhn’ovs’kyi, and Petro Savaryn. A number of them, such as Ilnytzkyi, Hryn’okh, and Horbatsch worked at the Free Ukrainian University (UVU) in Munich; others such as Mirchuk and Kosyk were associated with the UVU or completed PhDs at this university. Ianiv was the rector of the UVU from 1968 until 1986, and Drazhn’ovs’kyi from 1993 to 1995. Hunchak was a professor at Rutgers University, Potichnyj at McMaster University. Horbatsch was professor of Slavic languages at the Johann Wolfgang Goethe University of Frankfurt am Main from 1965 to 1982. Petro Savaryn was chancellor of the University of Alberta from 1982 to 1986. Bohdan Osadczuk, who was neither in the OUN nor the Waffen-SS Galizien but published articles in the collaborationist newspaper Krakivs’ki visits in 1943, was a professor at the Otto-Suhr-Institut for Political Science of the Free University of Berlin from 1966. The falsification of documents was another well-organized and institutionalized activity related to the discourse of extolling and denying. Lebed’, who had whitewashed the history of the OUN-UPA in a monograph published as early as 1946.

• page 406

...for the Encyclopedia of Ukraine, he did not mention that the OUN and UPA persecuted Jews during the Second World War and stated that “in the spring of 1943 thousands of Ukrainian policemen in German service deserted to form the fighting nucleus of the UPA [in order to attack] German outposts.” Similarly, he did not mention that in 1944 the OUN-UPA began collaborating once again with Nazi Germany. He asserted that the “UPA began liquidating Polish settlements in Volhynia” but omitted the fact that they also did so in eastern Galicia, and he relativized it with: “This soon escalated into full-scale Polish-Ukrainian ethnic warfare across western Ukraine"

• page 409

Only a very few scholars at that time, such as Ivan Lysiak-Rudnyts’kyi, objected to the apologetic discourses and the use of scholarship for propagating denial and creating various nationalist myths. Nevertheless, even Lysiak-Rudnyts’kyi did not have any problems with silence about Volodymyr Kubiiovych’s past, because the former head of the UTsK initiated the Encyclopedia of Ukraine and supported several other projects that were perceived by the Ukrainian diaspora as being very important.

page 498

The apologetic and eulogizing narrative about Bandera and his “liberation movement” was created not only by nationalist fanatics, Bandera’s hard admirers and far-right activists, but also by a number of scholars who worked at universities in Canada, Germany, France, and the United States. Some of these scholars, such as Taras Hunchak, Petro Potichnyi, and Volodymyr Kosyk were veterans of the OUN or UPA.

I strongly advise users not to use that Encyclopedia as a source for WW2 history or if used, use it with extreme caution and always look for a better source. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Again, you’re repeating an ad hominem against a respected publication, without any reliable source backing it, so I’ll respond again (but please stop WP:REPEAT). Your single-source, Rossoliński-Liebe, talks about a historical figure, Bandera, and passim about Kubijovyč, but does not criticize the Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Which other encyclopedia do we disqualify after examining the personal history of one editor?

But “some of those contributed” among over a hundred? What are you trying to establish that this is a Nazi encyclopedia? that Ukrainian academics tend to be Nazis? @GizzyCatBella, you are on the verge of indulging in a witch hunt. What else have you been reading that’s influenced this crass action? Maybe think twice about going there at a time when tens of thousands of Ukrainians are literally being wounded and killed by a nuclear power while it incites genocide by painting the nation as requiring violent “denazification.”

Your sole-source Rossoliński-Liebe’s only apparent criticism is the apparent crime of not having an entry on the Holocaust in the EU’s 1949–52 Ukrainian-language edition, which no one is using for Wikipedia! But please, name the other early-’50s encyclopedias that are not guilty of the same. Your repeated arguments remain completely without merit.  —Michael Z. 16:01, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

The current events in Ukraine have nothing to do with it and I fully support the Ukranian side, so please stop, okay?

What inspired me into digging into the issue is this article move request (now I noticed you were the nominator) Kubiyovych seems to be a standard Ukrainian romanized spelling. Kubijovyč looked more like Czech spelling to me. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

The name he used in Poland (were he lived before the war, he was half Polish) was Włodzimierz Kubijowicz. But this is irrelevant to the current discussion. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Standard Ukrainian romanization is Kubiiovych, but there are other schemes.

Rossoliński-Liebe looks like an important work but also suffers from a bias identified by Oleksandr Zaitsev[130][131] and subject to criticism by Yaroslav Hrytsak[132] and Yuri Radchenko.[133] None of your arguments have a sound basis, and repeating demonization of Kubijovyč is not helping.  —Michael Z. 19:59, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not demonizing Kubijovyč, I'm stating the facts.

He was a major Nazi collaborator working directly under Nazi war criminal Hans Frank who was executed for his crimes. Volodymyr Kubijovyc can be seen here (page 341) in the first row, in dark suit raising the right arm in the Nazi Heil Hitler salute.

You complaining about sourcing Liebe? Okay, let's source Rudling and see what he has to say about Kubijovyc.

Here we go:

In organizing Waffen-SS Galizien, Wächter worked closely with Volodymyr Kubijovycˇ, an enthusiastic proponent of ethnic cleansing. In April 1941 he requested that Hans Frank set up an ethnically pure Ukrainian enclave in the General Government, free from Jews and Poles. Kubijovyc benefited from Aryanization of Jewish property and published anti-Semitic materials in the collaborationist press. He asked Governor General Hans Frank to have Aryanized money go to Ukrainians, as it had ended up in Jewish hands, he argued, ‘only through ruthless breach of law on the part of the Jews and their exploitation of members of the Ukrainian people. On 2 May 1943 Kubijovycˇ declared himself ready to take up arms for the Waffen-SS. On 28 April 1943, the day of the proclamation of the formation, he stated:

Today, for Ukrainians in Galicia, is a very historic day, because today’s Act of State one of the most coveted wishes of the Ukrainian people is realized—to fight against Bolshevism with weapons in our hands. This wish was the result of the deeper conviction, that it is our duty not to stay neutral in the great fight for building the new European order, and what we can do for the victory of the new Europe. On these principles, we have based our active role in cooperating with the German government. We did everything that was possible. I have mentioned the voluntary departure of hundreds of thousands of workers to Germany. Their conscious contribution of quotas, the collection of winter clothing for the German armed forces, their large donations of money for military purposes show their readiness. We realize the great meaning of this greatest decision for our people. Therefore, we want to ensure that it will be the best. The formation of the Galician-Ukrainian division within the framework of the SS is for us not only a distinction but our responsibility that we will continue to [support] and maintain this active decision, in cooperation with the German state organizations, until the victorious end of the war. I ask you, governor, to accept our assurances that we will fulfill our responsibilities. This historic day was made possible by the conditions to create a worthy opportunity for the Ukrainians of Galicia, to fight arm in arm with the heroic German soldiers of the Army and the Waffen-SS against Bolshevism, your and our deadly enemy. We thank you from our hearts. Of course, we ought to thank the Great Führer of the united Europe for recognizing our participation in the war, that he approved your initiative and agreed to the creation of the Galicia division. (Pages 339-340

Are we supposed to uncritically trust such an individual and what he later allowed to be written about WW2 in his Encyclopedia of Ukraine?

I don't think so. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:07, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Says nothing about the Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Pure ad hominem.  —Michael Z. 19:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

And Rudling has a borderline WP:FRINGE political bias, having characterized the Ukrainian Canadian Congress and Ukrainian Canadian Civil Liberties Association as “ultranationalist lobbies” in Ball and Rudling 2015, “The Underbelly of Canadian Multiculturalism.”  —Michael Z. 21:50, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

I have to append to my remark. Rossoliński-Liebe actually does comment on the value of the Encyclopedia of Ukraine, calling it “a useful and authoritative encyclopedia of Ukrainian history.” I missed this because you omitted that part of the sentence the first time you quoted it. I’ve responded in detail above, starting with “This is presented unfairly . . .”  —Michael Z. 21:57, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

---

WW2 is not the only area where it shows a bias, unfortunately The many historical entries tend to a view that is excessively...nationalist: nationalist in the direction of distorting anachronism with respect to earlier centuries, moral exculpation with respect to atrocious events, assertion of a spurious uniqueness, thoughtless isolationism, and so on.... "Jews" (pp. 385-393) proceeds carefully through this sensitive and incontestably important subject, making various points that my Jewish students should want to know, while still leaving the overall impression that Jews were always intruders in this unfortunate land and that whatever horrible happened to them there was really the fault of Russians, Poles, Germans, or Soviets if not of Jews themselves.It will not do. In the entry "Icon" (pp. 294-297) the famous Vladimir Mother of God, revered for centuries in Russia, is called the Vyshhorod Theotokos on the ground that shortly after leaving Constantinople (where it probably was painted) it resided forabout twenty years (1134-1155) in Vyshhorod....."Human Rights"(pp. 266-267) is an anti-Soviet diatribe Alaexis_¿question? 15:25, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alaexis - Quote from Rudling (page 364)

The OUN(b) [after the war] maintained contact with Francisco Franco and negotiated for an arrangement to accept former UPA and Waffen-SSGalizien soldiers into Spanish military academies. A center of former Waffen SS-Galizien veterans in London sought to establish a military dictatorship in Ukraine. Others professed themselves to be democrats after 1945, making careers in politics and academia. In contact with majority society the veterns generally omitted their background in the Waffen-SS. Within their community, however, it was regarded as merit. Among the more prominent alumni were Volodymyr Kubijovycˇ, who after the war came to edit the Encyclopedia of Ukraine. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

West Herzegovina Canton Symbols

After discussion at the DRN, the discussion at Talk:West Herzegovina Canton § Flag concerning West Herzegovina Canton's coat of arms and flag (referred to as "the symbols" below) has been moved here. The arguments for and against the sources below are presented on the aforementioned pages. In summary, there were provisions in the canton's constitution defining the symbols that were deemed unconstitutional by the constitutional court in 1998. After that, the canton amended the constitution to remove said provisions in 2000 and passed laws that define and regulate the usage of the symbols in 2003. The questions are as follows:

1. Are Livno-Online, Mayor of the local municipality, RTRS, Federalna RTV, and SrpskaInfo reliable sources to verify that the symbols are currently unconstitutional?
2. Are Interview with an "expert in the field of constitutional law" and "former judge of the Constitutional Court of Yugoslavia and president of the Constitutional Court of FBiH" (Avaz, June 2018), and Osporene zastave i grbovi i nakon deset godina (Oslobođenje, February 2007) reliable sources to verify that the symbols are currently unconstitutional?
3. Is the page 63/123 of this ombudsman report reliable sources to determine that the symbols are constitutional/unconstitutional?
4. Is a page from a blog belonging to Željko Heimer, a claimed vexillology expert, a reliable source to determine that the symbols are constitutional?
5. Are the law on the usage of the symbols and the law defining the symbols reliable primary sources to determine that the symbols are constitutional?

Aaron Liu (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Is this a good enough subject for an RFC? Aaron Liu (talk) 13:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Either we could ask for help from related WikiProject, or go with an RfC in couple of days... Governor Sheng (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Sahapedia

Is Sahapedia (https://www.sahapedia.org/) a reliable source? Sahapedia is like an encyclopedia somewhere between a peer-reviewed journal and Wikipedia. Chaipau (talk) 15:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• It doesn't really resemble an encyclopedia all that much, and is more like a journal. Its reliability would have to be considered on an article-by-article basis. It look like the vast majority of articles are written by qualified academics, who have published articles in other academic journals. There is an editorial board (though I wouldn't characterize it as peer-reviewed). Attributed articles like these would probably qualify as reliable sources, subject to check on the individual authors' qualifications. On the other hand, the website also crowdsources some content, although it says that this material is not published without editorial review. Notwithstanding the editorial review, I would be skeptical of the crowdsourced contents not attributed to named, qualified authors. Banks Irk (talk) 18:19, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Banks Irk: yes, I agree. It is not quite a peer-reviewed journal and yet looks reliable to me, thus the question. I intend to use some remarks made in the beginning of this article. These remarks are themselves attributed to other academic works and I have checked these remarks against the cited sources and they seem OK. But I would not like to use Sahapedia if it is not acceptable here as RS. Chaipau (talk) 00:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

  That specific article looks ok to me. The author has been extensively published in other academic journals per Google Scholar. Banks Irk (talk) 00:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Is grunge.com a reliable source for adding material to Buddy Holly

This article [https://www.grunge.com/714517/tragic-details-found-in-the-big-boppers-autopsy-report/] was used to add material about "The Big Bopper" to Buddy Holly's article. As it was copy and paste it was removed as a copyright violation, but as the editor says he's going to restore it somehow. It's "about" page is here.[https://www.grunge.com/about/][ Doug Weller talk 15:13, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

I would say that it's not the worst site in general. They seem to cite their sources; which is a sine qua non property of other reliable sources themselves. That being said, I believe you're taking the completely wrong tactic for objecting to the text. Even if it were scrupulously referenced to the most reliable source ever in existence and if God themselves came down and anointed the source as perfect, it wouldn't make a lick of difference. I fail to see how the additional information being added is relevant to an article about Buddy Holly. There is already a paragraph covering the information about the Big Bopper's death and about the minor controversy of the finding of Holly's gun some time later at the scene. The information in the Grunge article provides nothing extra relevant to the Wikipedia Buddy Holly article. You can reject the additional text out of hand without even discussing the reliability of the source, per WP:ONUS. There's no need to even debate the source; the additional information isn't relevant to the Buddy Holly article regardless of which source it comes from. --Jayron32 15:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@Jayron32 thanks. I agree about it not being relevant and planned to reject it. The original editor seems to feel very strongly about including it, not sure why. Doug Weller talk 16:25, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I usually always start with relevance as my first leg; reliability is pointless when the relevance isn't demonstrated. If something is relevant, then we can start looking for reliable sources about it. --Jayron32 16:37, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

RfC: Cultural publications and their use as RS

I am still quite green (no name pun intended) in the editing side of things, and recently took over the editing (and eventual publishing) of an article on a musician in a sect of my religion (Judaism - I am not a member of that sect, but am familiar with a number of the established artists in that space). I have seen consistent use of cultural publications from that sect as WP:RS (or, at least used as core references in general) in regards to referencing the notability of other (particularly male) artists in that space, and it appears that that has been done for years (at least dating back to 2014, based on some quick dives into edits on those articles). Some of the articles make exclusive use of such sources. But the use of those sources is being question for RS for this artist, and the article on her was nominated for deletion.

I don't believe that this case is an issue of gender discrimination. Rather, I believe it is an issue of disregarding cultural publications as RS. I worry what this means in terms of representation on WP as a whole, not just for Jews (though, of course, for us as well, being interested in my own people), but for all other religious and ethnic minorities and their cultural publications, specifically artists. The article on her is better-referenced than some ultra-Orthodox musicians (most or all of them male, and even some of them who are far better established, and better known than her). It concerns me that someone (possibly one of the editors who has been most active in the deletion discussion) will make it their business to hunt down and erase those more poorly-referenced articles, even though some are bigger names than her in the world of Jewish music (talking about how big a male artist or group is in the world of ultra-Orthodoxy is a bit of a wonky scale anyway, as female artists have had a massive uphill battle due to the rules in that sect surrounding men listening to women sing - and in some subgroups, even women performing or speaking publicly in any form that is not exclusively for female consumption. That issue has evolved further in some sect in recent years). I want the articles on them remain on WP just as I want hers to... well, remain, now that it's in WP:AfD.

In regards to ultra-Orthodox Jews, and specifically Chabad Jews, COLLive (established in 2008) is a regular reference (it's the one I mentioned dates back to at least 2014, and it appears in at least 500 search results on WP). This one's particularly interesting, because I didn't find it in the archives here, and it doesn't have it's own article here, but it's the go-to publication for news on that sect for the past few years. There's also The Jewish Press. It's extremely right-wing, but it is an established publication. In terms of more general Jewish coverage (and better general editorial coverage), The Canadian Jewish News comes to mind as well (centre-left leaning). Kikar HaShabbat (website) is an Israeli, Hebrew-language one that is specific to the ultra-Orthodox sect as well. Maybe Kveller too. These are just a few, and meant to be an example of Jewish cultural publications. There must be Muslim, Asian, African, etc. cultural or ethnic publications similar to these that others could note.

To be clear, I am not attesting to the reliability of all (or even most) of those publications in terms of things like politics, but I do believe they can speak with an acceptable level of authority in terms of the existence of an artist from that cultural group, and what that artist is up to. I know there are countless musical, theatrical, visual, etc. artists out there from many cultures, and WP probably can't detail them all, but certainly the ones that are well known and celebrated within those cultural groups (or receiving some kind of attention from those publications over multiple years of their careers) should be given a shot. As noted, I'm part of a different sect from the artists about which I'm writing, and it's important to me that they remain on WP. I don't think we should only be able to know about artists who go viral and get a deal with Universal or Sony (no offense to them, or their broader successes). GreenEli (talk) 18:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

So, I've just gone through the AFD you cite in your opening statement, and I'm just not seeing it in the way that you have characterized it. The main focus seems to be on the sourcing necessary to establish a subject merits an article. Articles generally require significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the topic. Most of the discussion centers around the notions primarily of "independence", which generally means a few things 1) a source needs to be about the subject and not by the subject. Insofar as an interview is the subject's own words, interviews can't be seen as independent because of that and 2) The source needs to be written by someone unconnected to the subject, i.e. not their family member, employer or employee, organization they belong to, etc. Secondly, sources need to be significantly about the subject. Not merely that the subject is named, mentioned, etc. For when the subject of the article is a person, I would expect the source to contain non-trivial and significant biographical information about them. I'm not sure we have that here. What I don't see in the thread you linked is any discussion around "disregarding cultural publications as RS". I don't see where anyone has mentioned that, or where anyone has told you that in any way. Oaktree mentioned that only one news source discussed the person, generally multiple sources are needed to establish notability, and that the mentions were trivial (wedding announcements and the like). Lamona chimed in that many of the sources in the article itself didn't even mention the subject of the article, and then noting that (for the reason I noted above) that interviews are not independent enough to count for notability purposes. That's literally all I see in that thread regarding the sources. I don't see anyone arguing to disregard "cultural publications". Unless you have a different example, I'm afraid you've invented a situation that doesn't exist, at least in the link you provided in the first sentence. --Jayron32 18:57, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@GreenEli: Leaving aside the fact you're trying to WP:CANVASS people to the AfD, the only specific cultural news source that you've mentioned here that you've cited for the article Chanale is COLLive. If you want to seek opinions on that particular source, then go ahead and start another discussion. But most of what you've said doesn't have any bearing on the reality of that article's situation, and nobody at that AfD said that COLLive is unreliable.

What they said was that the coverage from COLLive was not independent nor significant, and that's a general rule with interviews that we apply to pretty much everyone on this site. Quoting someone from that AfD: No where did I or anyone say that "Jewish culturally significant information sources" are not reliable sources. COLLive is probably a reliable source, but the COLLive articles here are not significant sources because they are only mentions of her. An interview with the subject or an article based entirely around one does not constitute a good source for establishing notability. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:31, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Chess, sorry that I haven't replied since yesterday. I started composing a reply to Jayron32, but had other things to deal with, and have only just been able to get back to it now.

In regards to the canvassing accusation, my initial writing of my post didn't include a link to the article or discussion (specifically because of that concern), but I felt that it would be of no use to anyone considering the topic if the article in question was left unidentified. Rather than end up with it having to be requested, I included it, and I wouldn't expect that subject of the article is going to elicit any drive for onlookers here to jump into that conversation. My intention was to have COLLive and other cultural sources considered as reliable in regards to subjects in their space, and that I would be able to secure it and their use as RS for such articles (yes, including this one, but not with the need or intention to pull editors into the AfD discussion). I'll continue where I left off my reply to Jayron32 and then circle back to the rest of your reply for any portion of my original reply (and further writing now) that doesn't address a point you've raised.

Original, as started yesterday--

Thank you for your input. If I'm worried about a nothingburger, that's great (in terms of the fear that I raise here about potential deletion for other articles). I am not taking issue with not accepting interviews as highly as general articles about a subject. In terms of your note regarding independence of a source from the subject, I don't believe that issue has been raised by any of the article's detractors following my removal of the references linked to her podcast, and one that made no mention of her (save for one that remains that is connected to her, but for which I have not received guidance as to how to include the connection in the article). Interviews aside:

Reference 1 is by a staff reporter at COLLive, and is about her move to Israel and the new album about which the article was written. Is that not independent? Is it being considered an interview?

Reference 2 is an interview, yes. Does that mean it needs to be fully stricken as a reference? If it can be kept, but is not ranked as well, I can't (as far as I know) rank references by significance instead of order in which they appear.

Reference 3 is the article that mentions her great-grandfather's introduction of a specific nigun. This is the one that doesn't mention her, and I kept asking about the appropriate way to keep that article linked while removing it as a reference. I have yet to receive an answer to that.

Reference 4 is, admittedly, not an article about her, and is, instead, about her family members who died in the event covered in the article. As far as I understand, it should remain, as it is a good reference for that part of the article.

Reference 5 is an article that is not exclusively about her, but contains a significant portion of biographical information within its two pages, and, again, was published by an independent source.

Reference 6 is an article exclusively about her, written and published by an independent source.

Continuing from yesterday--

Reference 7 is a very short article about a property on which she worked and is featured. I can understand it not being a significant source reference, but the information is correct. I couldn't see a reason to remove it from the article as I found it when I began editing.

References 8 through 11 are much the same; they are not significant references, but contain accurate, related information, and 11 (though short) is from The Jerusalem Post, an internationally recognized publication, and one that's come up in discussion on the notice boards multiple times.

Within this list, there are at least three articles from independent sources that are about her, either exclusively or in large part. Or, they are at least independent based on the criteria listed by Jayron32, above.

I do believe that I have characterized what is happening in that discussion, at least in regards to Oaktree's responses (Lamona comes across as far more interested in the actual discussion of the subject's merit and the amount of biographical information within the bigger sources). As it is, the subject of source independence has not even come up once in the AfD discussion. Within that discussion, I made the same points here, as I did there, and Oaktree completely disregarded them, whereas it just seems that Lamona missed them somehow. I've received further comment from Lamona, and another editor recently stepped in noting them, earlier today, and I have to look further into that.

Chess, to the point about Lamona's reply which you quoted, you're correct that they replied that. My concern is not related to Lamona not considering COLLive as RS as a whole (not following that reply, anyway). Oaktree is the place from which the concern stems, especially given the purposeful lack of explanation as to what made only one of the sources RS in his eyes (he explicitly refused to explain). As he said, "We'd consider a peer-reviewed journal as the gold standard for sourcing, then a feature in something like the New York Times (or other prominent newspaper or magazine) about the individual, then a book chapter/entire book about them. Then the sourcing quality goes down from there." Does that not suggesting discounting the importance of a publication like COLLive or the other Jewish publications (I realize that it doesn't have the same stature as something like NYTimes, but that doesn't mean it should, therefore, automatically be considered as lacking value as a source).

Is there something else I'm misunderstanding about how articles on a subject are considered toward RS? Does any article on (or significantly featuring) a person that includes a quote from that person automatically count as an interview?

Apologies if this reply is exceedingly lengthy. GreenEli (talk) 00:57, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Chess By the way, to your suggestion, I will start a separate discussion on COLLive when I have a moment. GreenEli (talk) 01:28, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Just passing by- WP:RSN is the place for posting questions regarding whether particular sources are reliable in context. It is not the place to discuss what sources are independent or WP:SIGCOV about an article currently at AfD, I would recommend you post your rationales there instead of at this noticeboard, otherwise it isn't appropriate to continuously post at this forum. VickKiang (talk) 02:15, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

VickKiang apologizing again. I am continuing discussions about the article there, though source independence has still not actually come up at all in that discussion, even once. As stated in my previous reply, discussion about the article itself was not my intention. GreenEli (talk) 05:19, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

British Travel Writing: Women’s Travel Writing, 1780–1840

What is the reliability of this website https://btw.wlv.ac.uk/ ? According to its about page, the project was done by Benjamin Colbert and others by researching original archives. The website seem to be officially supported by the University of Wolverhampton (subdomain and logo). It also received grants, one from the University of Wolverhampton. — DaxServer (t · m · c) 10:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@DaxServer: The material on the site is probably verified and accurately represented to academic standards, but which parts of it are you intending to use on Wikipedia, and how? It's not readily apparent from a quick check of the site how it might be used here, ie, much of the material appears to be private letters not intended for publication. Siawase (talk) 10:48, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Siawase I intend to use it [only] for biographical articles based on the the biographical entries on the site. To start with, Marianne Postans https://btw.wlv.ac.uk/authors/1113 — DaxServer (t · m · c) 11:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@DaxServer: Ah thanks, that's clearer. I think at the very least the biographies authored by Benjamin Colbert should be usable as WP:SPS by a subject matter expert. Since Colbert is both editor of the project and author of the biographies, there doesn't appear to be any clear independent editorial oversight or peer review, although from the about page the project has had some outside feedback. Siawase (talk) 11:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Just to note they would only be useful outside of WP:BLPs. Articles for living people can't use WP:SPS sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:48, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Considering the scope of the project is 1780–1840 I didn't think that needed mention. But yes, if any still living people do come up in the biographies, that would not be usable on Wikipedia. Siawase (talk) 15:33, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Add NHK World-Japan

In my opinion, this should be considered an extremely reliable source

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/list/

here's some random samples of articles on various topics

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20221118_29/

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20221117_29/

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20221123_19/

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20221117_42/

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20221119_17/

As of right now, there is a lot of news on ukraine (as expected given the scope of the war). The articles are extremely direct without any commentary from the author (who often isn't even listed). Events are given as a factual summary and pretty much everything is attributed to "X said"/"According to Y".

When it comes to things involving china, north korea or russia there is a definite negative selection bias in topics reported (but if we were to use that as a reason to exclude, we wouldn't have any news sources left anywhere) DarmaniLink (talk) 05:53, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

My understanding is that NHK is a lot like the BBC in terms of its editorial independence and respectability. Are people objecting to the use of NHK as a source for facts on the Russian Invasion of Ukraine, or for coverage of East Asian politics? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:23, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Previous discussion from last year in the archive: [134]

And yes, like the article here (NHK World-Japan) says, NHK is national public service, similar to the BBC, and should be generally reliable, with any bias handled according to WP:BIASED. Siawase (talk) 15:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)