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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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User:DePiep and DYK

• DePiep (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I hate to come here, but DePiep's actions leave me with little option. DePiep has, over the past weeks, made a series of edits and/or suggestions on the technical side of DYK: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], and several others.

These changes are made in good faith. However, when reverted or otherwise questioned about them, DePiep has responded with startling amounts of off-topic bellicosity, and very little genuine explanation. Thus, we've had there have been edit-wars on multiple pages here, and here. We've also had There have also been a number of discussions with a poor heat to light ratio: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10].

In all of these situations, DePiep has repeatedly:

1. Refused to explain what he is trying to do, instead using vague language like "cleanup" and "improvement"
2. Treated all demands for explanation as allegations of bad faith,
3. Refused to acknowledge that when his changes are queried, he needs to obtain consensus for them, and not the person who reverted him.

Ideally, I would simply like somebody to convince DePiep to cut out the bad faith, follow BRD, and tell us what he is trying to achieve. Failing that, it may be an unfortunate necessity that he be removed from the maintenance areas of DYK. Pinging @EEng, David Eppstein, Zanhe, and The Rambling Man: Vanamonde (talk) 11:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Replies to this post are below in #Reply by DePiep. -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• I was called a "dickhead" and "dickname"(diff) and had my username equated to "IPA:Auschwitz"(diff, diff) on Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 58#enwiki has lost the WP:Palestine community by DePiep last month after I removed a duplicated WP Palestine (leaving it on top) - I'm still clueless as to why this was so offensive - removing a duplicate wikiproject seems to be a trivial non-contentious correction.Icewhiz (talk) 11:32, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

  Now I get it! Icewhiz = Auschwitz! Such perception! Such insight! EEng 22:00, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

  Indeed. Icewhiz has a thick skin, that sort of remark to some editors would end up here immediately. Icewhiz is active with WP:ISRAEL, and some will conclude that IW is Jewish (it's not on his user page though). It's hard to AGF a remark like the above, as opposed to a highly offensive, targeted attack against a [perceived] Jewish editor. I can't think of any way to vindicate the above comment, in fact. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 01:27, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

  What really puzzles me here is what prompted this. I've made edits that I can understand why some other editors see as contentious. But removing a duplicate WP Palestine (it was there - twice)? Ignore the particular invectives - why the anger over this particular action of mine? At the time I chalked this up to perhaps editing not under the best circumstances that day or something similar - and did not pursue this - but it is perhaps relevant if there is a continued pattern.Icewhiz (talk) 06:34, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: See my reply below. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• I chanced upon a sudden slew of discussions on the DYK talkpage, all raised by DePiep. Most were causing heated debates, with the majority of the heat relating to the fact that DePiep seemed technically unable to sufficiently describe what he was trying to achieve in most instances. I certainly had trouble understanding a number of his comments. Even from today we have "For the rest: that going into the BF area, I think you should base that. - DePiep (talk) 10:30, 7 May 2018 (UTC)" for example. No idea. So when eventually DePiep accused me of a (mild) PA, and then claimed he was leaving the discussion with a "See you elsewhere, TRM. -DePiep (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2018 (UTC)", I stated that I hoped not. He then petulantly left me a message on my talk page with his very next edit. Generally it the whole series of posts has felt like an enormous waste of time from a disruptive editor who doesn't really appear to have the competence to make these kinds of edits or suggestions. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: A slew of discussions, all raised by DePiep -- Did I start too many talks? Isn’t that contradicting the OP notion? Or do I misread your post? A (mild) PA -- When I wrote “some other place” that refers to the WP:advice not to escalate a PA in the same thread. There is nothing more to it. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• The user in question has an unfortunate history with the block log. --Izno (talk) 16:01, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
  • DePiep also has significant history here at ANI. E.g., just last June he took a voluntary one-year topic ban (on anything related to earthquakes) in lieu of a six-month block.

Across a broad swath of topics he has shown a characteristic pattern: he jumps into something he thinks needs doing (often with wide-ranging effect), but sometimes not quite in tune with what others think should be done. And when challenged he generally does not respond well. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

@J. Johnson: I think this is an incorrect description of that ANI. There was nothing “in lieu of” a voluntary ban. Instead, I can see this as an example of me deescalating & solving. -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

In precisely what way is "he took a voluntary one-year topic ban ... in lieu of a six-month block" incorrect? Do you dispute that there was not a topic ban? Or that you did not voluntarily accept it? Or that it was not for one year? Or do you deny that there was any possibility of an involuntary block?

The closing admin (Dennis Brown) stated: "The evidence presented herein demonstrate there is a serious problem with DePiep's behavior." And: "Technically, I could block for 6 months here and no one would bat an eye." And concluded: "if you start causing serious problems with this topic, a (long) block will probably result." What you "deescalated" was your liklihood of getting blocked, which I believe was understood by all present to be in the offing. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:39, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

@J. Johnson:. You are misrepresenting that ANI. (again; I pointed this out before). Already in my very first reply there I proposed a voluntary topic ban [11]. Only one full week later the closing admin mentioned what you call a “choice” [12]. I also note there are notes regarding your behaviour. Please stop rewriting this history. Your own wishes, perceptions and interpretations are not the same as facts and closing statements. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

What I quoted (and highlighted) is from the closing statement. What is questionable here is your interpretation – here – that a "voluntary topic ban" is not a topic ban. In fact, when the closer said (and this also is from the closing statement): "DePiep, I am going to accept your voluntary topic ban (italics added), he characterized your sanction exactly as I have stated: a voluntary TOPIC BAN. The misrepresentation here is entirely yours. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I previously interacted with this user over a major revision of the {{OEIS}} template series. I think his changes were, ultimately, constructive, but they involved a similar "my way or the highway" attitude from DePiep, a distressing level of unconcern for making sure that the hundreds or thousands of existing uses of the template rendered correctly before making such changes, and a hostile response to any form of constructive criticism. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@David Eppstein: I think you refer to this (first section) discussion. I don’t think that discussion illustrates what this thread is about. In short, you protested that the /sandbox /testcases were broken (not the mainspace template), which I called irrelevant; also, I solved that afterwards and created a follow up thread for future improvements. i.e., constructive editing & discussing. If anything, this actually illustrates my start-a-talk approach we all consider good editing. Note the “I want” sentence. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• DePiep is very active at WP:WikiProject Pharmacology, where he tends to focus on stuff like templates more than on content. I also have seen, repeatedly, the obnoxious interaction style and the inflexibility, but he also does contribute in useful ways. I don't have any knowledge about the DYK problems, but I think that the situation does not go quite so far as WP:NOTHERE. It's somewhere between that and OK, not entirely one or the other. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:25, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
  • A skim through Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pharmacology/Archive 13 gives a pretty good view of what I'm referring to: mostly useful, occasionally unpleasant (the latter in one part of the "USAN etc in drugbox" thread). --Tryptofish (talk) 19:41, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: about the example you mention: there I started follow up sections #Restart and #Proposal (which went live eventually; also note I pinged editors). I can see this as an example of desired talkpage behaviour. I reject the suggestion of WP:NOTHERE, maybe you meant to say something else? - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. For the time being, I am going to comment only in regard to your response to me here. When I made my original comment, I was primarily pointing out that you make positive contributions to WikiProject Pharmacology. I agree with you that #Proposal, which was the outcome of the discussion, was a good outcome. As for #Restart, I'm pretty sure that another editor, Jytdog, started that part of the discussion, not you. What I saw as a problem was your interactions with Doc James, where you said: [13], [14], [15], [16]. It started out as a simple misunderstanding between the two of you, but you unilaterally escalated it to (from last two edit summaries), "thanks for stating that you (Doc James) cannot be trusted" and "three dicks and you're out?". I then tried to intervene, and your response to me: [17], was completely one of deflecting your own responsibility to the other editor. That was bad, and the reason I did not pursue it was that the discussion got back on the right track after the other editors started the "restart". You appeared not to understand it then, and you appear not to understand it now. About my reference to "NOTHERE", I said it "does not" go that far, but you seem to be missing my use of the word "not". Maybe that indicates some language or communications difficulty, but much of what I am seeing indicates a behavioral problem that goes significantly beyond just language comprehension. I'm disappointed, therefore, in your response to me. As I said, I'm commenting for now just on this, but having also read all of your responses, I think I'm seeing a lot of deflection there too. If other editors confirm that hunch, my earlier willingness to cut you some slack will vanish. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

@Tryptofish:. You are right, that interaction with Doc James is abject. I wanted to note that I (we) pulled that topic out of the mud into a well-discussed live result. Wrt NOTHERE: indeed you said it did “not go quite so far as ... ”, but introducing the reference point has a meaning and an effect. I object even the mentioning of it, because NOTHERE clearly claims having a dishonest interest in the project. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Therefore, I want to make it clear that I do not consider you to be "NOTHERE". Full stop. The reason I first used the term was because other editors were seriously considering a site-ban, and I wanted to communicate that it would be too severe. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• As a DYK regular, I have never come across this user before nor had any interaction with him yet it appears to me that he has come into DYK out of the blue and made a number of edits to the technical workings of the project. Personally I don't see the logical reasoning behind his actions. The fact that there is consensus that he appears to be unaware that his tinkering is being disruptive suggests that maybe he should be advised to back off doing that. I never like to see topic bans but maybe this could be on the table. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 19:54, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
• More concerning is that he doesn't appear to understand basic concepts. Looking at this history and this one (on which he broke 3RR), plus the current discussion at WT:DYK, he doesn't seem to grasp the BRD cycle or the facat that consensus should be gained for contentious edits. That's actually a WP:CIR issue, when one is repeatedly told by multiple editors not to do something, and you carry on doing it anyway. Black Kite (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment Skimmed through here. User has not edited in some hours. Concerned that a very constructive editor in some areas has become overwrought. I think with DYK, they'd bit off too much, and they should leave it alone a while. DePiep, very interested in seeing your response.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:04, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Dlohcierekim for this careful post. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• perhaps we are having a life issue?-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't think this is out of the ordinary for this editor at all. The limited interactions I've had with De Piep have also led to me tumbling down a rabbit hole of odd accusations and some of the most obstinate WP:IDHT behaviour I've ever seen here.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:11, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

• How odd -- since this thread began DePiep has fallen silent. I've never seen that happen before. EEng 12:53, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
• Seems unnecessary for me to pile on the chorus of accusations. I've already said enough about DePiep at WT:DYK#DYKbox improvements and other threads. I just want to add that it baffles me why a seemingly experienced and productive user like DePiep would behave as if he'd never heard of WP:BRD and consistently ignore the advice and arguments presented by numerous other users. -Zanhe (talk) 22:45, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

@Zanhe: Below I will reply to my BRD issues. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• i am not able to read and respond, also for the next days. -DePiep (talk) 23:18, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

  Don't worry, DePiep -- "ANI flu" always clears up as soon as the thread in question is closed. EEng 09:42, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I'd have given a hefty block for the Auschwitz slur on its own. There's significant evidence here that this is a user who has talent and much to contribute but simply does not have personality type to be able to work collaboratively, making him totally unsuitable for contributing to Wikipedia. He communicates poorly, dislikes explaining himself, becomes incredibly irate over very small things and uses appalling slurs, including racial. I'm fairly well known for preferring lenient course of action with users, but I'll be proposing a community site ban for this user, unless they have some very persuasive things to say. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

• This user has a long history of awful behavior and refusal to make any kind of sense when their actions are questioned. Looks like the bn discussion below isn’t going through, but that doesn’t mean a block can’t be issued, and if they return without addressing these issues, a block can and will be issued. They’ve already been blocked ten times and have just ridden them all out and gone right back to their old ways. This must stop. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
• I would also support a block should DePiep return to editing without addressing the issues. It's clear from his long-term record that something fundamental needs to change in his interaction with other editors. If we do not see evidence of any willingness for that to happen, a forced preventative measure would be appropriate. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@Davey2010 and Beyond My Ken: the topic ban is for areas outside of mainspace and user space, so the editor is not topic banned from the entire project except this thread, and can return to editing without engaging in further discussion. This would, of course, limit the potential for future problematic behaviour. isaacl (talk) 15:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Blocked

I have issued an indefinite block. It seems obvious that their sudden suspension of activity was in response to these concerns, and their pattern of being blocked and just taking it without filing a formal unblock request suggests that anything less than an indefinite block will not achieve acceptable results. As I noted when blocking, they may be unblocked at any time so long as they agree to the re-opening of this discussion and pledge to actively particpate in it. They have dodged criticism by hiding for far too long. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

So ANI flu can be fatal after all. EEng 05:21, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

• I support the block - I'm still appalled by that "Auschwitz" slur. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Agreed; normally I'd have a little bit of a problem with an admin coming over the top and instituting a different sanction than that which was just agreed to by the community. But given that the conduct here was so egregious that any admin could arguably have indeffed them at any point without likely objection from the community, and given the "out" which Beeblebrox has supplied DePiep with, with regard to returning here to discuss the community's concerns, I can't say as I have much issue with this in the present case. Besides, after Swarm closed their proposal below, I began to second-guess the wisdom of allowing a user to have access to mainspace while otherwise effectively banned, considering how that situation could be gamed. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

• DePiep has just requested an unblock to address this discussion, so I have undone the close as suggested by the closer. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

  Unblocked. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:18, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Redux

Ok, it looks like this would be an appropriate time to restart this discussion since they are back and able to edit again. I believe this are the points that need to be addressed, but feel free to add on if I’ve missed anything:

• A pattern of becoming extremely defensive and/or refusing to clearly explain themselves when their edits are questioned
• Edit warring
• Responding to good-faith attempts at discussion with personal attacks
• specifcally the “Auschwitz” comments, which several users and admins have commented are reason enough for a block in and of themselves
• The fact that this is a highly experienced user who, despite 10 previous blocks, still doesn’t seem to have managed to learn to behave within minimum expected standards.

Again, feel free to add if I’ve missed anything important. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I think you've summed it up pretty well. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

• I would add, in light of his response to my comment of 00:24 9 May, that DePiep seems to be in denial of the circumstances where he accepted his voluntary topic ban, showing that he is still WP:NOTGETTINGIT. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• In case it wasn't obvious, I have pulled DePiep's TE right given the current topic ban, and some other reasons I recall from his past.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 02:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
• I too think Beeblebrox sums it up pretty well. I think the edit-warring and gross incivility are easily dealt with; if they recognize the problem, they're on a tight leash (a 1RR restriction may be appropriate), and can be blocked indef if they repeat that behavior; if they don't recognize the problem, we site-ban them here and now until they do. The first problem Beeblobrox describes is trickier to define, and trickier to address. I would there reiterate my proposal to remove them from maintenance areas, defined as any namespace outside articles, article talk pages, user pages, and user talk pages, with an exception for appealing and/or discussing sanctions about themselves. I proposed this below as a temporary remedy, but I believe it's the appropriate long-term step, too. This proposal is, of course, conditional on DePiep recognizing and promising to rectify the other problems with their behavior; otherwise, it is moot, and I would support a ban. Vanamonde (talk) 09:57, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree with Vanamonde, the issues have been summed up very well by Beeblebrox. If DePiep cannot explain their edits in the maintenance areas, then they should not be editing in that area, so under any circumstances this proposal should probably sustain. Alex Shih (talk) 04:46, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
• Preparing replies, basically to the top thread. - DePiep (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Been working continuously on this since (on/offline), but can't get it finished today. Need a rest. - DePiep (talk) 15:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

DePiep, you may not believe this but I really would like to help you get back to assisting with the project. For that to happen, though, your response here needs to reflect an attempt to understand why everyone (everyone) is upset with you, not an extended defense explaining how you were right all along. EEng 22:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

I do believe you. I am wrestling with my replies offline for days now. It is tough confrontations, and I must be honest & full out I know. Best of all is the time allowed (fast & short answers won't solve). I hope to post tomorrow, a batch of replies. I too want to join the project. -DePiep (talk) 23:54, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Just a thought... It can be quite traumatic facing up to your own problems, and as DePiep is keeping away from editing until this is resolved, I see no rush. I'd much rather we (DePiep and others) take the time to achieve an amicable solution that gets DePiep back to productive editing, than rush and get a poorer outcome. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, taking some time is good, for me at least, as I can read more carefully &tc. - DePiep (talk) 12:49, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment After blocking DePiep in 2015, I received this email comment from an editor, who shall remain anonymous: In case you wonder how I got involved, I have been working on the immensely complex Module:[redacted] for nearly three years, and DePiep has been active on Template_talk:[redacted] with helpful advice for those asking questions, and by managing the documentation. I have also seen DePiep's useful work in other areas. I fully acknowledge DePiep's problems and I think your block for an extremely pointless edit war on a template was reasonable. DePiep does not speak English fluently and sometimes misunderstands colloquialisms, and finds it hard to follow long and complex sentences (like the ones I write!). DePiep's style is sometimes unhelpful.—Bagumba (talk) 15:18, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Reply by DePiep

• First of all, I want to make my excuses for the edit regarding Icewhiz. That should not have happened in any case. Even worse I did not even self-correct at the time.

• Also, my 3RR breach with [18] in Template:DYKbox was unacceptable, especially since it was about visible content. (For those interested, here is a better development route I started afterwards).

• Also this visible content change should have been done via the talkpage.

• Re me being absent [19]: that was genuine in RL, it was not triggered by this ANI as some admins assumed. In the end the temporary blocks turned out as I too intended: first solve this thread (so the issue is moot). Meanwhile, these days helped me in finding a more relaxed and careful approach to the issues.

• In the top section, below the OP, I have replied to some individual complaints, that IMO are more isolated.

• For completeness, I note the discussions I started: this, [20], this, this; and I contributed to this.

• About my behaviour wrt BOLD, BRD, and talks. This is more subtle, so please bear with me. I write in reply to the three complaints that were made in the OP (now anchored):

Re #OP-1 vague language like "cleanup" and "improvement": As with many other similar template improvements I applied a technical-only edit: [21], [22]. My experience with other templates and WikiProjects is, that these are *not* considered controversial. To me, the wording in an the es like “cleanup” or “move templatedata/category to documentation” is clear enough. Elsewhere I did link to this WP-document for explanation. Sometimes the edit should be self-clarifying I thought: e.g., removing texts like “Interwikis go to the documentation page” is heavily outdated.

I add that in other WikiProjects, I have applied competence including doing bold edits, and building consensus in more difficult template issues (see talks & archives of elem, chem, drug, track). This is not to claim authority, but to point out that the DYK community is different in this. Please understand that this is my background experience, and so I am quite surprised to discover & learn that in WP:DYK the sense is more like “hey, don’t even edit bold here”. Before the DYK talks started, I already had made some 100–150 technical edits to templates & documentation without problems or breaking one, which added to the surprise effect.

I think this difference explains most of my contributions to the talkpages. This is why I kept asking for: “what is broken?”. This also explains why I missed the underlying DYK-community requests to explain more, and to simply not edit at all.

Re #OP-2 Treated all demands for explanation as allegations of bad faith. Maybe you refer to this edit, which indeed is needlessly unfriendly. In that talkpage section I first did answer what I was doing [23]. Then I got this bolded cursing, my reply asking to stay civil, canvassing/meatpuppeting, I asked to stop, ridiculing my English, then this. (BTW I am surprised that no editor here acted upon or even noted the abusive language in this last diff).

All this had happened in that section when Vanamonde93 made a fresh & clear restart with a bullet: [24]. To that I did reply with content [25], and without [26]. Rereading the section I think I did show some willingness to reply, but re Vanamonde93 I missed the deeper question obviously, and that latest diff was not clarifying, and not friendly I admit. Please note that the Vanamonde93 post appeared after the unhelpful language in the first half (diffs given above). At that point, my mood was not open for the constructive approach Vanamonde93 started.

It could be that Vanamonde93’s text “allegations of bad faith” actually meant to say “as personal attacks” (as Vanamonde93 did in their #Redux text). To this, my reply would be: in multiple occasions my knowledge of English was questioned [27], and even ridiculed [28]. I have never met this complaint before. While this appears to have a base in WP:CIR, it certainly appeared to me as a PA (amid other unhelpful posts aimed at me), hence my replies. I don't think I started out making BF/PA accusations.

Re #OP-3 Refused to acknowledge that … he needs to obtain consensus for them: Correct in general, though above I have noted that sensitivity for (objection to) BOLD/BRD editing in DYK is higher than elsewhere, even with technical edits.

Over all, I think I showed that, apart from problematic edits, also I started multiple threads myself, abided their result, and did reply with meaningfull answers (note the “also”). This is to push back against the atmosphere created that I did not engage in discussions at all. I now know & also admit many other answers were not civil/helpful/acceptable (or not to the point, not clarifying enough). In this situation, BRD should have lead me to stop making bold edits full stop. Then, a talkpage result would lead the way (could be no consensus, that is: nothing to be done).

I see that my initial attitude was that my edits were obvious, correct and self-explaining cleanups; this blinded me for the deeper concerns that were posted (like this opening by EEng, and this one by Vanamonde93). This is not to wipe complaints out, I just want to illustrate that the trespassings were not posted as a first reply or opening post.

How to prevent any future such problems? Clearly, I should take care not get carried away by fanatic editing, introducing blindness for talks and leading to frustrated uncivil replies. More in general, I better create a distance in times of pressure, instead of diving deeper into a locked situation. The bonus is that it will lead to a more healthy situation this side of my screen.

WRT WP:DYK, with its complicated processes, bot-support, difficult talks to reach improvements, and this whole experience: I think I cannot contribute much so I will not engage in DYK any more, unless invited.

• - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

  @DePiep: - First of all, I accept your apology. Could you kindly answer what I did to trigger this? Or was this just a random "thing"? What truly puzzles me was not the particular wording - but the cause for the initial offense (which I assume is something I did?).Icewhiz (talk) 16:36, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

IIRC, in your edit [29] I totally missed the "duplicate" cause, so I saw only the removal which astonished me. At that time I had noted that WP:Palestine editing is low at enwiki. - DePiep (talk) 16:58, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

OK - I could understand how that could possibly lead to anger.Icewhiz (talk) 17:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• DePiep Firstly, I want to thank you for that self-reflection - it can't be an easy thing to do. I don't want to get into too much detail, so I won't reply to specifics above, but I'll just offer a few general observations.

  On the issue of being WP:BOLD and following WP:BRD, what I think I'm mostly seeing in recent interactions is a lack of understanding and poor communication. You didn't really understand why others were rejecting your template changes. But, more importantly, they didn't understand what you were trying to achieve and why. I see some attempts at discussion, but they were rather curt and I have to say I couldn't understand the details. What it needed (and I say this rarely) was more words and less action. It needed a more expansive and detailed explanation of what you were doing, and discussion until everyone understood everything. And stop making any changes until it is clear that everyone understands and there is a consensus. If you continue with further efforts to remake the same changes with modifications for what you think is the problem (but without the necessary understanding and consensus), it only causes frustration. Don't approach it from a feeling of "They need to explain what I did wrong", but more from "How can I help them understand what I'm trying to do?"

  It's not really that BOLD is not allowed, it's that the D part of BRD is by far the most important of those three letters. In areas like frequently used templates and pages with high dependencies, it is even more important that everyone involved should fully understand the implications of any changes, and when those changes are contested you should completely stop and seek consensus. In fact, in areas where there are regular editors with more specific knowledge and experience, it can indeed be wiser to seek consensus first and not be BOLD at all, as you suggest.

  Looking back over some previous interactions that others have raised, I also see times when you appear to have taken reversions or questions of what you are doing too personally and have responded poorly, similarly to what has happened here. That does seem to be a long-term issue, though again I think it's probably due to misunderstandings and/or poor communication. But when any edits you make are challenged, you really do need to engage in discussion and fully explain what you are doing - and it needs to be an explanation that's sufficient for the other editors to understand, not just one that satisfies you. And always, stop, assume good faith, and look at the whole picture again before you respond - it seems it was a failure to do this that led to the IceWhizz thing.

  Anyway, this has turned out to be a lot longer than I'd anticipated, but I hope you will find it of some use. And if you're listening to what people are saying and are taking it in and trying to do something about it (which you appear to be doing), then I don't think there's any need for any sanctions. But please do reflect on this discussion whenever you feel thwarted or frustrated in the future. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, this nicely (and more eloquently) describes my situation. - DePiep (talk) 15:17, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to hear more from other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'm happy to see DePiep apologizing for the worst of the personal attacks, and a site-ban is no longer an option I would consider. But I'm less satisfied with DePiep's replies about BRD. Especially with respect to DYK, he seems to believe that there's some sort of resistance to change anything there, and that his following BRD would have led to no changes at all. This is simply not true. DePiep made certain changes to certain templates and was reverted. His responses (when he went to a talk page at all), as far as I could make out, tended to be "I didn't break anything" or "Why not?" He didn't realize that it was incumbent upon him to answer the question "why?" first. There were similar problems with his talk page proposals; basically, they didn't always explain the problem they were trying to solve, and when folks expressed confusion and/or opposition, DePiep took things personally.

  I'm not sure where to proceed from here: on the one hand I'm worried my proposal above is now too harsh; on the other hand, I'm worried that if we do nothing, we'll be back to where we began very soon. I'd like to hear more suggestions about how to move forward. Vanamonde (talk) 04:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:. I’ll try to be more precise: I don’t want to state that “ there's some sort of resistance to change anything there” in the WikiProject DYK community. What I meant is that change discussions in the DYK backoffice are more extensive (diverse opinions) and more complicated (more issues are involved, e.g., bots) compared to other WikiProjects/templates I have worked with extensively. As a consequence, in these other WikiProjects I rarely run into a BRD cycle (I have made bold, minor edits to a 10k template, explain on the talkpage, and no R is made). This is what I call the “surprise” I met in WP:DYK.

My future behaviour then should be: be more sensitive for such requests (like BRD). If I were allowed to edit again, I expect to achieve this for example by not being bold in more unfamiliar projects. Essential to this is, me not dig in myself (instead take distance, start talk first, don’t get triggered by perceived opposition). Also I foresee that this editing process might lead to fewer of my proposals being accepted, which should not be a cause for frustration. -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with all of the above. DePuep is here in GF and seems to have plenty to offer, but we need to find some way to help him put the brakes on when need be. EEng 16:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

On rereading some of the above I feel it must be said that something that's missing, and which I think is essential for DePiep's future here, is a recognition by him that his English really does have moderate deficiencies, so that he needs to exercise extra caution in interpreting PGs and what others say to him. EEng 21:36, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

• "More in general, I better create a distance in times of pressure, instead of diving deeper into a locked situation." This is good self-advice from DePiep. I think they tend to get heated and then not assume good faith. The onus is on them to control this. The reality is that they will have little leeway in the future, and they could conceivably improve yet still be villified for one transgression. It's their responsibility to repair their reputation. I don't know if there is any suitable sanction at this point. They should also get their template editing rights restored.—Bagumba (talk) 16:43, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
• I think that Vanamonde's assessment of the situation is spot-on. I would like to find a solution that makes it possible for DePiep to stay around, including the ability to continue to work with templates, but I also see a troubling lack of self-awareness with regard to discussion with other editors, resulting in personal attacks, and I am convinced that it would be a mistake to assume that it will not happen again. So I would like to suggest an approach based on WP:ROPE. I don't see a good way to legislate a definable criterion for adequately understanding comments directed at him by other editors. But I think that we might be able to draw something of a bright line with respect to personal attacks (although I acknowledge that the community has not been able to agree on the boundaries of civility). I think that we might be able to draw up an editing restriction that specifies that any future personal attack made by DePiep during discussions of edits that he has made will result either in an escalating series of blocks, or in a site-ban. If we can flesh out that idea, perhaps we can make a formal proposal to that effect. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

And in the case if there are no restrictions, the close here should be clear that there is little to no tolerance for future incivility, allowing for swift action in the future, if needed, without spending too much time rehashing their history and re-collecting diffs.—Bagumba (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, but I also think that this discussion should not be closed until some restrictions have been settled upon. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@Bagumba:, @Tryptofish:. [written before I read the lastest proposal, I'll post this anyway:] I understand the setups you describe here. I myself am wondering too about any type of useful restriction etc I could even ask for. Today I only can make promises. Of course, whatever the result now, we know that this ANI by itself is an ultimate warning. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree with both Bagumba and Tryptofish. For all the concern of how DePiep might be salvaged for the greater glory of the project, he has been an IMMENSE sink of time. Unless someone is inclined to engage in a close, long-term mentoring effort with him he should be put on notice that any bickering or disputation (including here at ANI) will be grounds for a block. Which means that, in any dispute, if his arguments and explanations of why he is right are not accepted he must not persist, and any escalation to ANI is prima facie grounds for a block. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@J. Johnson:. any bickering or disputation (including here at ANI) will be grounds for a block -- are you serious? So any editor can report me here to ignite a autoblock, no reading required? Not even allowed to dispute or disagree? (how should that work for applying BRD BTW?). Editors can step on the admin's chair just like that? -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I am serious. See comment at bottom of this section. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I think this is a good place to reference what I said above about DePiep's English, which I think is a key part of the problem. EEng 22:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

No, it's not a language problem, it's an attitudinal problem. There is a pertinent comment today way at the bottom of all this. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• DePiep wrote, I think I cannot contribute much so I will not engage in DYK any more, unless invited. I think this is a good idea, and I would like this to be a formal part of the resolution here; the "invitation" should be a consensus of the DYK community on its talk page, not just a random editor. This has been an immense time sink, as noted above, and there was damage done, as edits to several templates that are designed to be transcluded caused unexpected characters to appear where they shouldn't. It's clear that DePiep wasn't sufficiently aware of the many DYK processes to safely edit DYK templates, and I've reverted their template edits there, though I've left the edits to the template documentation pages alone since they're unlikely to have done any harm. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
• A "civility restriction" is also an option. Per WP:RESTRICTION: The user may be sanctioned (including blocks) if they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith. Perhaps a 1-yr editing restriction?—Bagumba (talk) 16:05, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  • OK then, I think that a near-consensus is starting to emerge. How about a proposal formulated like this:

1. A topic ban from DYK, that can be subject to review in the event that other editors at DYK would like to have it lifted.
2. A 1-year editing restriction, in which DePiep is subject to immediate sanction (including blocks) if he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith.

• How does that sound? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I think restoration of TE privs should be contingent on a year's success with the above. It's a right that assumes particularly restrained judgment. EEng 20:12, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, that means specifically the Template Editor advanced permissions, but not simply the ability to do edits related to templates. If that's the case, that's fine with me. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think DePiep should re-apply at PERM if they want TE rights again. Tryptofish's summary of consensus in my opinion is fair (topic ban from DYK/one year civility restriction). Personally I would prefer "indefinite" but "appealable in six months" for the civility restriction so that we don't come back to square one again after one year (somewhat reflecting on the sentiment expressed by Vanamonde and Beeblebrox). I would probably also add a reminder along the lines of "...to stop and discuss before making potentially contentious maintenance edits" or any other statement that summarise what Boing! and others have mentioned here. Alex Shih (talk) 21:24, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with all of that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, looking over it, I think perhaps that both the DYK topic ban and the civility restriction should be "indefinite but appealable in not less than six months". --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• How about: any complaint made here, that an admin judges to be well-founded, for incivility, personal attacks, edit-warring, or tendentious editing, is grounds for an immediate one-month block, and this sanction to continue until the user has edited for twelve consecutive months without any complaint. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 03:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Honestly that sounds a touch confusing, and I'd prefer the relatively straightforward modification suggested by Alex above; both restrictions indefinite, and appealable in six months. Vanamonde (talk) 04:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with Vanamonde. There will be less likelihood of something going wrong if we stay closer to the typical format for sanctions, and for the application of administrator judgment. I think we are getting to the point where I will make a formal proposal soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with all the agreeing with the agreement. Can someone recapitulate exactly what's being proposed now? And then (it seems to me for some reason in this particular case) I think it would be useful to hear from DePiep himself that he understands what the proposal, if approved by the community, would be asking him to do, and that he thinks he can abide by it. EEng 02:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

As I just noted above re J. Johnson, this is a weird prococedural route for multiple reasons. (I copy): So any editor can report me here to ignite a autoblock, no reading required? Not even allowed to dispute or disagree? (how should that work for applying BRD BTW?). -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I am serious. The persistent problem you present is, in large part, continous disputation, and recurring failure to WP:HEAR. (E.g., in part of this multi-part comment of yours you continue to dispute whether your last "voluntary topic ban" was, in effect, a topic ban. You revise history, and then accuse me of misrepresentation.) Do note that, strictly speaking, this is not an autoblock. While any editor could report you here, it would be up to an admin to decide whether there is grounds to block. The point is that we don't have to drag everyone through yet another round of DePiep showing how the rest of us are all wrong.

The key point for you is that if you can resolve disputes you have on various Talk pages, very well. But: if you can't (or won't), and persist in it enough to annoy other editors, you will be sanctioned. And no, you don't get to dispute about disputes. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, wait, someone already did that, a few subthreads down. Let's regroup there. EEng 03:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Moot stuff

Proposal: Temporary topic ban The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. DePiep has stated that he will be unable to comment here for a while. It is unfair to the community to expect them to hang around here till then. It is undesirable for this discussion to simply remain unfinished, thus allowing DePiep to resume his behavior if and when he chooses to return. Therefore, I propose that DePiep be banned from proposing or making edits in maintenance areas outside main space and user space, until he returns to this discussion or this noticeboard and the topic is brought to a resolution. In other words, he is to be removed from the area of conflict until the issues raised here have been resolved. This isn't meant as a permanent remedy, and I wouldn't even suggest it were it not for an unfortunate tendency for editors in general to drop out of sight for a while when their actions cause controversy. Vanamonde (talk) 08:37, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Pinging @EEng, David Eppstein, Zanhe, The Rambling Man, Icewhiz, Ponyo, Dlohcierekim, The C of E, Tryptofish, The C of E, Izno, Bellezzasolo, and Black Kite: With due apologies. Vanamonde (talk) 08:37, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Pinging Dweller too, who posted above as I typed this. I agree, that slur is not okay, but I believe it part of a wider pattern that needs to be addressed in its entirety. Vanamonde (talk) 08:39, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support, as proposer. Vanamonde (talk) 08:37, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Tentative support As I have been pinged twice(!), I feel I should comment. Giving the benefit of the doubt to DePiep for saying he cannot comment, it doesn't quite seem fair to impose a full sanction on him when he is not able to defend himself, whatever the reason may be. That being said, I feel that for the continuous altering of the syntax when being asked not to and for that Auschwitz comment which I wasn't aware of before, I think that it is justified to put a temporary restriction on until such time as he is able to fully explain why he did what he did. Then we can make a fully informed decision on what to do. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 08:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support good idea. Protects the user who I'm sure has a legitimate reason to be unable to edit (we're all volunteers, after all) and also protects the community against the possibility of scrutiny evasion. I'd amend to "all 'Wikipedia:' and 'Wikipedia talk:' pages" to the terms of the topic ban though. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:10, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Is your suggested change a shrinking or enlargement of the proposed (temporary) topic ban to you? DePiep's behavior extends into the template space as well. --Izno (talk) 12:09, 9 May 2018 (UTC) To be clear, when I said "maintenance areas" above, I mean everything that isn't articlespace and userspace. That way, even if DePiep returns and ignores this thread, we don't have to rehash everything until he chooses to do so. Vanamonde (talk) 12:15, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Ah. So specify forwards maybe, using that form of words? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:43, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support a topic ban which prevents editing anything outside this thread. The proposal is (in spirit) fine but not tightly defined. We've had this situation before where a user develops ANI-flu, and the best way of dealing with it when there's significant concern over the disruption caused by such editors is to mandate they respond here and nowhere else. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:13, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support anything up to and including an indef until he shows he understands what he's been doing wrong. EEng 09:42, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support A firm, but gentle, way of forcing the issue to be addressed. However, I agree with TRM, answering this thread should be the first thing they do when they get back to Wikipeida. If they don't edit this thread, it's a voluntary CBAN. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 11:56, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Caveat: I'd suggest applying the usual exemptions for 3RR here. So they can revert vandalism, as that's very much a quick operation. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 12:00, 9 May 2018 (UTC) I'm not sure there's a dire need for a topic banned editor to revert vandalism in project space. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:42, 9 May 2018 (UTC) I was referring to a caveat in the context of TRM's proposal, i.e. a topic ban from everything except this thread, including mainspace. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 12:45, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Oppose. Long term contributor - who yes - has been overly aggressive of late. His block log has been clean for nearly two years. Certainly some of his comments have been disconcerting - but has anyone discussed this with him? I believe he should be warned regarding civility and cooperation prior to tbanning areas he edits. A temporary t-ban shifts the burden of evidence to him in the future. The AN/I should serve as a wake up call of how this is viewed, and he should be warned prior to more aggressive action.Icewhiz (talk) 12:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support per the Auschwitz comment. Gamaliel (talk) 14:20, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support "startling amounts of off-topic bellicosity" is definitely how I'd describe my (quite limited and otherwise benign) interactions with DePiep, and the cited examples are more of the same. Common-sense exceptions (a dangerous pastime, I know) for participating in ANI threads and the like about themself (or at least this one) can apply. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:42, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support GiantSnowman 14:51, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support the Auschwitz comment is unacceptable, especially when considered in light of DePiep's bogus claims that other editors personally attacked him. This hypocrisy, in my view, warrants more than a topic ban from DYK, but at least this is a start. Lepricavark (talk) 15:13, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support, as revised. As long as this is temporary until this ANI discussion gets resolved, it is not punitive, and allows in good faith for the possibility of something other than "ANI flu". And I personally would be quite happy if the eventual outcome were to be an indication by DiPiep that he now understands the concerns here and will try to do better, with the understanding that it will be a WP:ROPE situation. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:57, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support. Frankly, DePiep is getting off lightly here - if I'd seen the "Icewitz" comment, I'd have blocked for a serious amount of time, if not indefinitely. Black Kite (talk) 18:52, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support as specified, but would rather support full ban until this is resolved, considering the Icewhiz/Auschwitz comments. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:12, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Support as far as it goes, but prefer a full ban. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) Highly conditional support The proposed solution is a reasonable one under the circumstances, but I want to be clear about what I am endorsing. If the purpose of this ban is to make sure that Depiep returns here to to discuss the matter as soon as they have time to return to the project, this is a desirable way to effectuate that result. However, I believe that as soon a Depiep does return and opens a thread for the transparent purpose of picking up discussion where it left off, this ban should be dissolved immediately by that action and without need for a community resolution. In other words, as this is a procedural matter rather than a final determination by the community regarding the Depiep's conduct, there should be no presumption that there exists a more long-term ban in place on Depiep--at least, not until such time as the community explicitly declares one. Snow let's rap 01:20, 10 May 2018 (UTC) Although, incidentally, if we were discussing the long-term solution now, I would have supported a block for DePiep at a bare minimum, based on a couple of those highly uncivil comments. Snow let's rap 01:30, 10 May 2018 (UTC) Support as a bare minimum. That Auschwitz slur (which was repeated several times) was disgusting behaviour, and I would have indef blocked for it had I seen it at the time. However good someone's contributions, if they stoop to such appalling personal attacks during disputes they should be shown the door. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:33, 10 May 2018 (UTC) Having said that, I would prefer a complete community ban until DePiep has time to come here and address his disgraceful conduct. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:40, 10 May 2018 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Proposal: Site ban The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Given DePiep's extremely high level of activity, I find his sudden and complete inability to participate here disingenuous, and I do not think we should hold off because of it. Given the extensive history of persistent egregious behavioral problems, which have not been resolved in spite of previous lengthy blocks, as well as the support for it already expressed above, I propose the following remedy: DePiep is indefinitely banned from editing Wikipedia. Appealable after the usual six months. Swarm ♠ 21:36, 10 May 2018 (UTC) Weak procedural oppose. - Swarm, as someone whose main bugbear on this project for the last few years has been the very lax standard of enforcement of WP:CIVILITY that the community presently utilizes, you can bet I'm right there with you in finding that some of those comments were thoroughly unacceptable and warrant some degree of sanction. That said, I don't think there is a WP:SNOWBALL's chance of your resolution passing, given the broad endorsement of the proposal to wait to resolve this matter. Nor is that decision ill-advised in my opinion; indeed it's pretty consistent with how community responses (and even proceedings as serious as ArbCom cases) have always been dealt with in these circumstances. Whether we credit any one particular editor's claims of inability to participate to be genuine or an attempt to avoid scrutiny, the fact of the matter is that sometimes life does intervene and because of our inability to know the real life circumstances of most of our editors, it is considered best practice to give them the benefit of the doubt, regardless of doubts which may have been caused by their other conduct. Unfortunately, I think this is a necessary precaution to make sure that our editors maintain the ability to present their side of things. (And I can't imagine DePiep saying anything that makes those comments acceptable, but that's neither here nor there). Given the general community standard on this sort of thing, and the near-unanimous endorsement of the approach in this particular case, I think we should stay the course. DePiep is effectively banned anyway until they return to discuss the matter and the community will still be here when they do. All the same evidence can be presented and all the same users pinged (and indeed some of them, assuming that DePiep's claims here are a dodge, will only be more likely to be hardened in their view that he should face a sanction) and another additional batch of editors will also be introduced to the matter. I'm fairly certain the ban will be extended to a non-provisional one at that time and that this is a delay of community response, not an abrogation. Snow let's rap 00:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC) OpposeWe already have a remedy above. We don't need to keep taking bites at the apple.00:09, 11 May 2018 (UTC)-- Dlohcierekim (talk) I was under the impression that that's specifically a temporary remedy, pending an actual one, and the reason that was done was because DePiep claimed they couldn't participate at the moment, which is, to me, obviously not true. Multiple people are advocating for a full ban above, so it seems silly and unusual to allow him to continue to edit the mainspace freely until he's ready to answer for tendentious editing. Swarm ♠ 00:21, 11 May 2018 (UTC) Oppose A Sword of Damocles hangs over DePiep already, no need to cut the string and drop it on them. Blackmane (talk) 00:34, 11 May 2018 (UTC) Oppose - Bit convenient that the day they're taken to ANI the editing drops for a day and then 2 days later they make a "I can't respond" comment before vanishing again, That all being said unless I've read it wrong they're topic banned from the entire project apart from the thread above so I don't see much point in site banning/blocking at this time however if they return and make a edit anywhere else then I'd happily support indef, In some ways I feel the editor should be blocked per CIR and the other side remain here - Dunno but anyway oppose any sort of blocking for now. –Davey2010Talk 00:37, 11 May 2018 (UTC) Oppose - I think that the temp ban -- which effectively becomes a permanent one if DePiep doesn't want to return to editing -- is sufficient at this time. If a unreasonable period of time passes and DePiep doesn't return to editing here, or he edits other language Wikipedias, then we can talk about additional sanctions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal: Editing restrictions

Following the discussion at #Reply by DePiep, above, it looks like there may be an emerging consensus to handle the situation in the following way, so I am presenting a formal proposal:

1. DePiep is indefinitely topic-banned from all edits related to WP:DYK, broadly construed. This topic ban may be appealed in not less than six months from the enactment of these sanctions.
2. DePiep is placed indefinitely under an editing restriction, in which he is subject to immediate sanction (including blocks) if he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith. This restriction may be appealed in not less than six months from the enactment of these sanctions.
3. DePiep may regain permissions as a template editor only by way of a successful application at Wikipedia:Requests for permissions.
4. DePiep is reminded to engage in good faith discussion, and to communicate clearly, with other editors about any contentious edits he might make or consider making, and to consider other editors' concerns with respect.

--Tryptofish (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support, per my comments above; this strikes the right balance between allowing DePiep the freedom to contribute constructively, and minimizing the drain on the community's resources. Vanamonde (talk) 03:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support Beeblebrox (talk) 03:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support. As DePiep has been a perennial problem across a range of topics we should be looking to develop a generic form for future use. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 05:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

  As per EEng, below, I think we'd be fine allowing DePiep to work on DYK nominations, reviews, etc - just not the techie stuff. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. I understand this (well-written) proposal, and I think it addresses the issues well. I thank those putting a careful effort in this. (Minor question: am I to stay away from DYK-proposals?). - DePiep (talk) 13:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • @DePiep: Yes. May I ask why is this unclear? Alex Shih (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
    • All my interactions with WP:DYK were backoffice (that is, templates & processes & WT:DYK). Nominating (the word I should have written) an article for DYK is frontoffice, open for any editor. Hence my question. - DePiep (talk) 13:14, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
      • All edits related to DYK. All. Fish+Karate 13:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I think that would be a mistake. The root of DePiep's problems at DYK was that he was trying to get under the hood when he'd never driven a car (so to speak). I see no problem with him making nominations, and reviewing, and discussing (discussing content issues, that is) at Talk:DYK; but he must stay away from the technical machinery for the duration proposed. BlueMoonset can probably express the distinction crisply for us, in terms of namespaces or classes of pages or something. EEng 13:35, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd agree with EEng. I suggest that a namespace-based restriction here would be tricky, but we can add an exception to nominate articles, review nominations, and participate in discussions necessary to resolving his nominations or reviews. Vanamonde (talk) 14:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I have no problems with the wider cast "No, no noms". I asked for clarification, not for relaxation. I suggest stopping this side discussion. - DePiep (talk) 14:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support as written. If DePiep is fine with a topic ban from DYK, I see no need to carve out a path for nominating DYKs, something I don't believe they've ever done in all the years they've been editing. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • That is what I was thinking. In the previous edit, DePiep was asking about "DYK proposals" (they have since clarified), which I naturally thought was referring to the DYK proposals they made in WT:DYK when they were unaware of anything about the DYK process. With that being resolved, I still agree with BlueMoonset; I don't really see the necessity to write an exception for something that they appears to have never done in the past. If DePiep is interested in submitting DYK nominations anytime soon, I suppose it is fine to add the exception suggested by Vanamonde. Alex Shih (talk) 15:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Based on DePiep's comment just above, I think it's best to leave it as is. The less complicated, the better. Also, there is nothing wrong with asking for a partial relaxation of the restriction, for the purpose of nominations, in six months. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Maybe it's just me, but I still think we should sonehow address DePiep's English comprehension difficulties -- maybe something about asking for assistance in understanding others' posts and edit summaries where necessary. EEng 16:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I sort-of tried to cover that in item number 4. Beyond that, it gets difficult to incorporate advice into something like this, where we are trying to write something that is precise enough to be enforceable. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I think I'd just like to hear from DeP that he recognizes this is part of the problem. EEng 17:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I have similar concerns, though I'm not sure its the language competency itself that is the problem, per se. In the past, I've made numerous ventures on to other Wikipedias for languages for which I have functional but incomplete command of the grammar. Usually this is for the purpose of tracking down sources, finding content to transwiki, or just educating myself on a topic for which the English Wikipedia has more limited coverage. Once in a blue moon, I have made some trivial edits (maybe even some bold ones), but whenever reverted, I never insisted on my preferred approach, nor got antagonistic with the local editors, because I recognized the potential for mis-comunication and that each Wikipedia has its own editorial policies and community consensus (which are also subject to being misconstrued, no matter how much effort one makes to familiarize themselves, if facility in the language is incomplete).

I don't think that editors from non-English communities should be discouraged from participating (they can often bring knowledge which is less well known in the anglophone sphere), but anybody participating in a Wikipedia project (or in any collaborative scheme, for that matter) for a language which they are not fluent in should be using a liberal application of the precautionary principle. Instead DePiep often seems to come in guns blazing when challenged. So the issue is not so much one of underlying incomplete facility with English, but more one of arrogance and lack of self restraint and perspective in general. They don't seem to pause to consider whether they may have misunderstood the consensus on the matter and whether they are effectively communicating. Needless to say, those are potentially huge problems on a project such as this. That said, those are also the underlying principles to which DePiep has mostly owned up to above, so I would hope that their commitment to slow their approach in general will address these problems. Snow ^{let's rap} 20:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes: it's not a language problem, it's this persistent "guns blazing" disputation (and some arrogance) that's the problem. But I doubt how much he has "owned up" to being a problem, as it keeps happening, again and again. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree that behavior, not language comprehension, seems to be the biggest factor here. As to owning up to it, these sanctions should be an effective test of how committed they really are. If they can’t stay within them, blocks will be forthcoming. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

My point is that I think it's the comprehension gap that often triggers the latent behavioral tendencies, but I give up. EEng 16:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I suspect you are right about a comprehension gap triggering some of the behavior, but it's at a deeper level than mere language. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Re EEng: I don’t think my level of understanding English is very significant in this. I have participated in huge discussions, sometimes taking over 400 days, and building a positive result that affected dozens of FAs/GAs (recently [30] and longer ago; also here and here). It would be more relevant tot look at my domain knowledge, as in: understanding the topic and the workings of a WikiProject, including editors’ approaches & attitudes. This gives a much better explanation on why I derailed in the WP:DYK. - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support and let's hope it helps. EEng 16:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support: I would have tightened the wording on the civility provision myself; admins are already empowered to impose blocks and other sanctions for incivility, personal attacks, and refusal to AGF, so clearly what we are talking about is implementing a lower threshold for when DePiep is subject to sanction with regard to bad-faith conduct of this sort, and I'm not sure the wording makes that particularly clear (and using the default standard in this manner debases our baseline community expectations, I fear).

That little caveat aside though, I think these sanctions create sufficient restraint to address the issues raised here to an extent that will allow us to permit DePiep to continue contributing long enough to test their commitment to taking the community's concerns on board. Some of the comments that spurned this thread were truly antagonistic, but it makes a big difference that DePiep is trying and has made efforts at apology. I note also that the party most directly insulted by those comments has themselves chosen not to assume that these comments are representative of DePiep in the whole and has not urged for sanctions; of course the community can still reach their own conclusions about those comments, but that situation does make a difference to my personal analysis. All said, I think we can afford to give DePiep this chance. Snow ^{let's rap} 20:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose on the grounds that an editor who has been problematic for this long is best dealt with by the more deliberative process of ArbCom. (I am probably in the minority here, but this is my opinion.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if ArbCom would be better at this point, but the restrictions proposed here do not preclude that. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, Cut some slack for a long-standing editor. Was DePiep wrong? Yes. Did he admit to it? Yes. If Wikipedia were only open to perfect editors, we would have no one here. This is an editor with 13 years tenure, 120k+ edits, and many-many productive contributions. His lack block prior to this incident - was almost two years ago - in August 2016. If we keep on treating block logs as a "criminal record" - all we're encouraging is people starting over with clean (or not so clean) starts. DePiep should have communicated better at DYK and elsewhere - and he should have realized the problem earlier - but slapping him with a very punitive punishment (and to a certain extent - this is true regarding the proposal in the section below as well) - is not the way to encourage contribution. Had this been coming to here after a previous recent block/ANI/warning - the DePiep should have acknowledged and acted upon - then it would be a separate matter. Having had a clean record for past 2 years and approx. 40k edits - DePiep should be cut quite a bit of slack. People aren't always at their best - and self-recognition and attempts to correct are much more important tbans/blocks/etc.Icewhiz (talk) 06:59, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I have made 178k edits on enwiki, 40k of them after August 2016 (and so 138k before). I thank Icewhiz fort he notion of the "criminal record" approach (worse even when the record is read incorrectly -- nigh impossible to correct). - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

That all sounds very reasonable and I can see how you may have come to such a conclusion. I would, however, offer an incident from January of this year as a more recent example. DePiep decided to “claim” a module at {{Module:Z}}. Not create a template, but rather claim it as their own for future creation. As I imagine you are aware, that is complete nonsense. As I recall there was also a talk thread somewhere where they announced their “claiming” of it. I came very close to blocking them then, but at the last second they backed off and let it go. I let it go as well for basically the reasons you have outlined here. It is now clear to me that this is a pattern from this user, and the sanctions are intended to interrupt that pattern. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

For reference, see [31] for the discussion (and the third reopening of the closed discussion thread). isaacl (talk) 08:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

So Beeblebrox told me that this is not the right way to go and deleted the page: WP:SPEEDY. But how or why does this belong in an ANI post? - DePiep (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Beeblebrox illustrates the tricky part in the proposal: he wanted to block me for … creating a page. So in the future the rules proposed here might be invoked by any admin that confuses a discussion with wrong language. That could only be cleaned up in an unblock request, but that is not a good place to discuss of course plus there is the admin habit to not wheelbarrow easily. - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Blatantly off topic, but I've been wanting to unburden myself: the single-letter template names are a rare and precious resource not to be squandered. The idea of wasting Z on something about chemical elements is appalling, and whoever appropriated {{M}} for earthquakes should be boiled in oil. EEng 13:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I hope not!! I would point out that {{M}}'s previous incarnation was for producing a single character (as several templates still do), which would be more to your point. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:01, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it's a matter of principle. Please report to the nearest boiling station for processing. The heat sources are very reliable now and there's usually comparatively little suffering.

The single-character templates should be reserved, ideally, for uses in which reducing clutter in the source text is especially important; a great example is {{r}}. Anyway, we'll miss you, JJ. EEng 04:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

EEng: Language? While we are at it, could you reflect on how these edits [32] [33] were helpful or useful? - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I have to agree with Beeblebrox, and add this incident from last year. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 12:09, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support restrictions as proposed - I'm encouraged that DePiep has acknowledged that his behavior has been a problem and hope that he will continue to contribute to the project, but I do think that these restrictions are a reasonable step at this time. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 11:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Close This Thread and Request that ArbCom Deal with a Problematic Editor

Not happening

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. In my opinion, editors who have been repeatedly blocked over a long period of time and keep coming back to the drama boards are editors who divide and polarize the community, and the community does not do well in dealing with them. (If the community were united, we would either already have banned this editor or given this editor a warning.) My opinion is that long-time problematic editors are better dealt with by an evidentiary quasi-judicial process. (I am aware that some editors and some Arbitrators disagree.) The community cannot remit a case to ArbCom, but the community can close this case and allow a case to be filed by the ArbCom. (If the ArbCom declines the case, it might come back in four months.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC) The purpose of these proposals is to not waste the community's time and effort on troublesome editors. Even if ARBCOM is able to synthesize a better solution, the process of getting there makes it not worthwhile unless and until we are unable to reach a workable (workable, not perfect) solution here. Vanamonde (talk) 02:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Comment - There is no perfect solution. The perfect solution would be not to have problematic editors. (That's a utopia, and a utopia is a no-place.) I think we only disagree as to how long the community should try to reach a workable solution before we punt. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:16, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Arbcom’s purpose is to solve problems that the community can’t seem to handle on its own. We seem to have a decent consensus here that these editing restrictions are this users last chance to conform to minimum expected standards of behavior. If they fail to do so they will be blocked. That being the case this falls short of requiring a weeks-long process with a 15 member committee and I’m quite certaint hat’s exactly what Arbcom would tell you were a case to be filed. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Oppose. As Beeblebrox says, ArbCom's role is one of last resort when the community can not deal with an issue, and we are nowhere near that stage. I'm quite certain that ArbCom would, rightly, decline it. @Robert McClenon: I urge you to withdraw this to save wasting any more of anyone else's time, as you have no chance of success with it at this stage. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC) oppose per boing and beeblebrox. let's give the user an opportunity to mend their ways, as presented above. very much too premature for arbcom.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 16:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Oppose. I agree with all of the opposes above: this is nowhere near to ripe for ArbCom, and the restrictions above should be sufficient for at least the next six months. I find it interesting that there are two opposes to the editing restrictions: one, leading to the section here, on the basis that the restrictions are not strict enough, and the other on the basis that they are too strict. Taken with all the other comments expressing support, it sure looks like consensus to me. I do agree that it's time to close this thread – but with enactment of the editing restrictions endorsed by the community. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:41, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Oppose, per all of the above. I would add: though the community process tends to lurch a lot, in this case I think we are unifying, and the current process should be not be scuttled on verge of a workable result. And albeit glacially, I think we have a collective learning experience here that will aid us in the future. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Oppose per the above. Vanamonde (talk) 03:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attacks and absurd meatpuppetry

At [34] BernardZ wrote What are you doing just following me?? Anyway thanks for your edit. That Tgeorgescu is just a turd, prejudice and narrow-minded.

At [35] Macquaire repeated information which was already in the article. I have reverted it at [36]. Then BernardZ has reverted my revert at [37], which is absurd, because such information got repeated twice in the same article.

At [38] BernardZ wrote about sockpuppetry by Macquaire I know him actually, what he is doing is following me. Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:56, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Two different people who know each other, they both make the same mistake. Odd, don't you think? And as shown at [39] and [40], they both sign their usernames below their messages, instead of at the end of their messages. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

The only thing that is odd is your over-reaction to having your revert reverted by another user. The sequence of events was as follows:

1. 06:27, 18 May 2018 BernardZ made an edit with the edit summary: This is something we did agree too.
2. 07:33, 18 May 2018 your first revert - edit summary: the number is quite small, avoid puffery
3. 10:27, 19 May 2018 Macquaire reverted
4. 10:35, 19 May 2018 your second revert.
5. 10:51, 19 May 2018 BernardZ reverted back with the following edit summary: This was agreed. If you want it out you need to prove that they are not notable and they are notable
6. 11:36, 19 May 2018 your third revert.
7. 11:38, 19 May 2018 you started a discussion on the article talk page.
8. 10:37-12:17 19 May 2018 you posted notices on the other two editor's talk pages accusing them of sockpuppetry and made a posting on WP:ANI.

Maybe you need a wikibreak?-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, I got called "turd, prejudice and narrow-minded" (before making the sockpuppetry accusations). Besides, I was not the first editor who accused the two of sockpuppetry, see [41] by Roscelese. And the edit warring was unusual (absurd): it wasn't edit warring about adding something to the article, it was edit warring about repeating twice the same information in the same article. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

If you can make a case for sockpuppetry, the place to do it is Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations. The question there is technical - is sockpuppetry going on? and can it be proved?-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that it can be proved, I will settle for meatpuppetry. I was irritated by repeating the same stuff ad nauseam. Once is enough, why should it be mentioned twice in the same article? Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

If it cannot be proved, then you need to accept good faith. I used to see people editing Wikipedia in their lunch break in the office I worked in. That does not mean that they were meat puppets of each other. As for the content issue, explain your feelings on the article talk page. They sound reasonable - the problem is that the article is repetitive, saying much the same thing in two sections - so it is not unreasonable to want the rebuttal in both of these sections. If the editors discussed this on the article talk page, between you, you might end up improving the article. Both sides have a good point on this one.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:05, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

• Macquaire is transparently a sock of BernardZ. I warned him back in 2016 in case that would be enough to stop it, but I haven't kept tabs on him since, and obviously he hasn't stopped. It's a rarely used account that becomes active periodically in order to support BernardZ in disputes; frankly, it seems obvious enough that an admin should be able to do this without process, but if no one else wants to file the SPI, I will. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Macquaire is no socket, he is I admit a mate, who tends to follow me on Wikipedia and facebook too. As far as User:Tgeorgescu is concerned it is about time, he did answer the allegations on the page Exodus instead of being prejudice. Note we did have a discusion, we did agree except for him and now he comes here. BernardZ (talk) 17:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Re: "[H]e is I admit a mate": see WP:Meatpuppetry. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Willing to bet the adult beverage of your choice that it's WP:SOCK and not WP:MEAT. I looked at some of their contributions and User:Macquaire uses a very similar variety of slightly fractured English to User:BernardZ. But it'll all come out in the wash if User:Roscelese files the SPI. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

His English is nothing like mine. BernardZ (talk) 01:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

@BernardZ: I don't think anyone has agreed on the talk page that we should repeat more or less the same words (difference being puffery) a few lines below their first occurrence. If you want to display good faith, I suggest that you write something like "As stated above, there are some scholars who don't agree to the consensus view" followed by <ref name="sourcename"/> way of using the same sources. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually you are the only one that disagrees with this line and now you are on your third wipe so now you must debate BernardZ (talk) 01:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, boy, a matter of WP:CIR: I have not objected to the line mentioned once, I have objected to the line mentioned twice. Do you have proper reading skills? I have objected to repeating the same stuff. Your line is now still inside the article, albeit without puffery. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:25, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• SPI filed. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

  SPI determined they were unrelated. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I think there are basic competence issues here that go beyond concerns about meatpuppetry. A quick glance at BernardZ's most recent edits revealed these [42] [43], where the editor's primary "contribution" was changing the spellings of words from US versions to UK versions on articles with US subjects. This edit [44] looks like vandalism, (which then prompted my check of other recent edits) and this edit [45] changed the wording of a quotation with no apparent regard for the source. Grandpallama (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Fronticla

Fronticla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be on something of a mission, removing characterisations from article with one word edit summaries (normally "pov" or some such). Example: removing and warring over "controversial" in the objectively controversial Burzynski Clinic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Attachment therapy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), two subjects strongly linked to exploitation of vulnerable people.

The user's talk page shows a long history of similar disputes, with he bee-in-bonnet issue changing over time. Guy (Help!) 23:27, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I noticed this, too. First at attachment therapy, which was subject to an arbcom case a while back and is the site of a very long-term abuse case (largely downplaying the negative aspects and promoting other aspects of the subject). Fronticla has edit warred to remove "controversial" from the article (4 edits since last month), and likewise just reverted a message I left on their userpage (fine, but indicates he/she doesn't seem inclined to engage on the matter rather than push forward with the same edits). Looking at the contribs, it's important to note that some of the efforts seem helpful in, say, removing blatant promotional language. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:36, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Putting "controversial" right at the beginning of the article creates a negative appearance from the beginning: the controversy can be an important part of our understanding of the subject, but it's not a fundamental component. With the clinic, for example, it's appropriate to put the bit about the focus of criticism in a second paragraph, but "controversial clinic" obviously not being a sub-class of clinics, it has the effect of drawing immediate attention to the dispute — not something we'd do with clinics offering mainstream treatment, for example, but if mainstream clinics are disputing with this one on how properly to treat patients, both sides are involved in the controversy. Nyttend (talk) 03:13, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

This is not a "both sides" issue. Attachment therapy is controversial because of the numerous documented cases of harm to vulnerable children, up to and including death. The Association for Psychological Science has no dog in the fight, its members could use attachment therapy of it actually worked, but APS listed it as one of a number of "treatments that have the potential to cause harm to clients". This is pretty common in alternative therapies - proponents are usually financially vested in the treatment, and portray opposition from the mainstream as being commercially motivated rather than, as is actually the case, lack of evidence of benefit. Guy (Help!) 08:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Typically, many of Fronticla's edits are an improvement. However, Fronticla seems to think certain words and phrases should be banned from Wikipedia, and there's no way to convince this editor otherwise. So, every use of the word/phrase is purged, regardless of any objections. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:37, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

True. Even if there's a section on the controversy. Doug Weller talk 09:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

In this edit [46] he removes not only the word controversial (Burzynski is currently under restrictions imposed by the Texas medical Board) but also the fact that antineoplastons are unproven. Actually they are closer to utterly discredited, but unproven is the very least we should say. Guy (Help!) 09:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

This is an editor that communicates only through edit summaries and removes warnings from their talk page without responding (except by edit summary). I've warned them that they need to start working and communicating with others. Doug Weller talk 11:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. And following the above comment was this, which isn't reassuring. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:52, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

That combines a personal attack with what seems a refusal to discuss. Also see this about Firefly (TV series) which is certainly cult. But I think there may also be a competence issue, perhaps he doesnt understand the word. But this needs to stop. Doug Weller talk 19:12, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

@JzG: you might want to see this discussion. Doug Weller talk 19:16, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Fronticla, you need communicate. This is a collaborative project. I suggest you respond here. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

User:A Simple Human

A Simple Human (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A Simple Human, who previously had the username Rayat before a rename, has failed to report socks of an obvious vandal for multiple times. Including this instance. Their talkpage is filled with messages from the different accounts of sockmaster. A Simple Human explicitly asked a previous sock to insult another user special:diff/808987536 (that insulting issue is 6 months old though). Recently, they have converted enwiki into social network, which can be seen from both of their talkpages, and contrib history. User talk:A Simple Human#Sup, User talk:A Simple Human#Haha, and the most recent one: User talk:A Simple Human#How are you. Their contribution to enwiki is not worth the disruption they are causing. —usernamekiran(talk) 01:46, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:VOLUNTEER, and we have no Article 58-12, so failure to report socks is not wrong. No comment on the rest. Nyttend (talk) 03:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

That Article 58 might come in handy at ANI. I especially like the Siberian exile. EEng 04:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

It looks like they've reverted some webhostesque content. Dlohcierekim's sock (talk) 07:34, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I came here to mention the same. Here is the full version of that talkpage before the chit-chat was removed. Regarding reporting the socks, if the socks were not harmful, or if the editor didnt know about them being disruptive, i could understand that. But what bothers me is, A Simple Human clearly knew/knows that the sock is disruptive. Also, their request to insult other editor makes me doubt their intentions. That victim later changed their username, and trolled these two perps. After that, the victim hasnt edited. The perps even discussed (in last 48 hours) about "saving each-other", "being supportive for/while coming back after each blow". But most troublesome is the casual discussions about being Nazi, communist, being anti-Jew, anti-Hindu and whatnot. —usernamekiran(talk) 08:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

As the discussions are not on one talkpage, it is little difficult to follow-through. But this edit, and his communication on that talkpage makes me think that he is trying to be a good editor. But given his overall history, i cant be sure. Thats why i brought it here, to get opinions of multiple editors. —usernamekiran(talk) 08:39, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I would remove this lovely persons TPA, but I left my tools at home.Dlohcierekim's sock (talk) 08:46, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

ASH edited the userpage of a now-blocked editor in this edit, specifically to add to the autobiography of that editor. Very odd behavior. Nanophosis (talk) 17:38, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Looked through some conversation ASH had with the editor, looks like they're just off-wiki friends. ASH also acknowledged this conversation and the warnings he's gotten about WP:NOTSOCIALMEDIA, so seems like he's just a good-faith editor who happens to be friends with individuals causing disruption. Nanophosis (talk) 17:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

@Nanophosis: yes, i think the same, but their behaviour from past makes ne suspicious. Also, from various socks of the disruptive user, it is clear they first met on wiki, then connected on other platforms. —usernamekiran(talk) 02:35, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@Usernamekiran: I see. I'll keep an eye out on their edits in case anything comes up. Nanophosis (talk) 02:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@A Simple Human: I see you editing. Do join us here.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

International Art Museum of America and User:Beyond My Ken

Beyond My Ken (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There have been disputes over International Art Museum of America. I did not know many of Wikipedia policies until recently. Mr. Ken reverted my edits and invited me to the article talk page, so I did. But after several rounds of discussions, I found Mr. Ken exhibiting ownership of the article and only permitting changes he would like to see.

1. I started a discussion, but another editor NPalgan2 changed the content being discussed before a consensus was reached (NPalgan2 did that immediately after responding to my first post in the article talk page), violating WP:BRD. However, as a rollbacker and the one who is most familiar with Wikipedia policies, Mr. Ken did not revert NPalgan2's edit.

2. Mr. Ken said that any edits I made not supported by reliable secondary sources will be deleted. I pointed out that the statement "an artist who is considered to be a reincarnation of Buddha by his followers" was not supported by any source; no sentence in the LAist article or the other inline citation directly supported the follower claim. But Mr. Ken did nothing with the statement. I think WP:BLP applies here because we are talking about a living person.

3. While the discussion was going on, Mr. Ken said something like "your arguments will not work" quite a few times. I really felt discouraged to discuss my opinions and contribute to Wikipedia. The way he treats people holding different opinions may potentially hurt other newcomers as well.

4. Most recently, Mr. Ken said "I will delete anything you add to the article based on your mistaken understanding of what sources are acceptable on Wikipedia", which was another way of saying that I am not qualified to edit the article. His statement fell into WP:OWN.

I respect for the number of years that Mr. Ken has involved in Wikipedia, but that is not a reason for feeling superior to other editors and weighing one's opinions more than those of other editors. I would like to request Mr. Ken be banned from editing in the article International Art Museum of America and the article talk page. Nevertheless, I will let administrators decide whether other forms of sanctions are more appropriate. Sleepy Beauty (talk) 05:24, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Sleepy Beauty is attempting to whitewash the article, claiming that a collection of primary sources counts as a secondary source. He follows in a line of editors with COIs regarding this museum and the cult which owns it. A simple reading of the discussion that Sleepy Beauty initiated at Talk:International Art Museum of America#H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III is not a self-claimed Buddha, and an examination of the edits to the article of User:B3May15, User:Yy94040, and User:Kchsieh100 will confirm these claims. None of these editors have Wikipedia at heart, their loyalty belongs to H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III and the cult he is the head of. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:40, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

The other editor involved in the discussion with Sleepy Beauty on the talk page was @NPalgan2:. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

An IP editor also has an interesting comment concerning coatracking here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:29, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

The complaints of Sleepy Beauty are without merit. This person wants us to state, in Wikipedia's voice, that their California based guru is a reincarnation of Buddha. The absurdity of that attempt is proof that this editor has a deep conflict of interest, and should not be editing any articles about this guru, this art museum, or Buddhism or art, broadly construed. This art museum is a barely notable project of this Buddhist sect, and is barely known in the San Francisco art and tourism communities. If you doubt me, please Google it. This Wikipedia article cannot be allowed to turn into a recruitment brochure for this Buddhist sect. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

RE-- " forms of sanctions are more appropriate", it's possible I'm totally misreading this, but IMHO, the most likely sanction would be a TBAN of SleepyBeuty editing about this so called Bhuddha fella.Dlohcierekim's sock (talk) 07:10, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Why is it always BMK who gets these loons? --Tarage (talk) 07:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

It is his destiny.Dlohcierekim's sock (talk) 07:33, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Shouldn't we keep a destiny log somewhere for the sake of transparency? EEng 11:44, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Nothing to add to what's already been said; International Art Museum of America, Yi Yungao and World Peace Prize will probably attract POVpushing again in the future. NPalgan2 (talk) 13:58, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support TBAN of Sleepy Beauty from the page in question, even though this is one of the most polite ANi filings in a long time. Also can ANi vote a barnstar for Mr. Ken for his efforts here? He might be the real reincarnation of WikiBuddha given how even his opponents recognize his zen like understanding of Wikipolicy while trying to get him sanctioned. Legacypac (talk) 12:31, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support TBAN of Sleepy Beauty from the locus of IAMA, broadly construed.Per Cullen.~ Winged Blades^Godric 13:28, 21 May 2018 (UTeautyu's
• support broad.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Broad scope

-EEng

You can support women without referring to them in that demeaning way. EEng 01:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support - Broad scope. I haven't done a thorough investigation of Sleep Beauty's edits, but the ones I've looked at outside of this subject area seemed OK, and they do not appear to be an SPA, so a topic ban as suggested would appear to be the best course of action. "Broad" in regard to IAMA should include the museum, H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III (Yi Yungao), the sect connected to the museum, and any other projects or organizations connected to the sect. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Interestingly (maybe), early in my career, I worked on a play called Sleep Beauty off-off-Broadway.Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support TBAN from IAMA & related articles, broadly construed. Seems to be some sort of persistent advocacy which is not helpful to the project. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:28, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support topic bans as suggested. It pains me to support a topic ban for someone who seems so polite and respectful. But we obviously can't state religious beliefs as facts in Wikipedia's voice based solely on religious sources, and I think a persistent failure to understand that means we really don't have any choice. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:57, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Trolling by 2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2 Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment WP:BLP and WP:OWNership issues should be resolved on the talk page rather than reverting and targeting editors you disagree with to topic bans and refusal to discuss, NPalgan2 and Beyond my Ken. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2 (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC) This editor attempted to remove pertinent sourced materal from the article and was reverted by NPalgan2. They appear to me to be yet another COI editor. Perhaps the article ought to be semi-protected? Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC) I added a "not in source" tag, Beyond My Ken. You have a major WP:OWNership stake in this article, and, really, you're playing it well, as no one is going to verify what you say, are they? Shades of Essjay. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2 (talk) 19:42, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support: Sleepy Beauty doesn't seem to understand and from what I've surmised, they have no intention of understanding with this particular page, either. Could you imagine if the article about Reverend Moon straight up declared that he was the Second Coming of Christ? Also, I'm sorry, BMK, for seeing you unfairly pulled to this noticeboard for following policy ardently. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 18:16, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Request to administrators: Could an administrator look at all of the recent edits (this month) by 2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2, and take the appropriate action? Softlavender (talk) 19:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Trolling by 2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2 Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:07, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, that sock certainly fits nicely around Sleepy Beauty's foot. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 20:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Oh, my, the sock puppet hunt is on (there's a page you can do the report yourself, you know, help the guys firm up their ownership and poor writing a little quicker, you know). What certainly isn't on is the addition of a source to back up the statement in the article, Wikipedia's supposed product. Typical Wikipedia boys' posse. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2 (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2018 (UTC) No, it's not SleepingBeauty at all; it's a troll editor. Softlavender (talk) 20:39, 22 May 2018 (UTC) No, I'm not a troll because I can read a source and refuse to accept that it says what it doesn't then refuse to synthesize my own biases into a Wikipedia article with serious ownership issues. Keep saying it, maybe you'll make it true with the help of Wikipedia mirrors. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2 (talk) 20:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC) No, you're a troll, and I'm pretty sure that we've crossed paths before. The style of this edit, for instance, was familiar to me, and your mention above of "poor writing" also rings a bell. Since I don't really bother to keep track of all the trolls I come across, I don't know who you are, or if your past trolling has been pinned down to someone editing logged out (which seems a likely case), but, for what it's worth, I don't think you are Sleep Beauty. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:46, 22 May 2018 (UTC) BTW, trolling IP editor, I have no "ownership stake" in the IAMA article, but I do have an extremely serious ownership stake in maintaining Wikipedia's veracity, neutrality and freedom from promotionalism, which includes doing whatever I can to prevent COI editors from skewing articles to their preference. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Crossed paths before? It's not before, it's same day, same comments, same person. No, you don't have a stake in neutrality because you supported inclusion of an unsourced disparaging statement about a living person, an area where Wikipedia has repeatedly gained deserved notoriety due to careless editing, often by article owners exactly like you. Your block log also says you're carelessin more ways than one, and for many years. You're the last person who should be trying to ban editors who disagree with you. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2 (talk) 00:59, 23 May 2018 (UTC) You should log in to edit. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC) BTW, I just added a reference from an academic study which confirms that the person in question made the claim that is in the article in a book they published, so there's no BLP question at all. In any case, that's all from me to you, from now on, I'm strictly not feeding this troll. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I have not said anything since I started this thread. Mr. Ken is well connected in Wikipedia. If everyone wants to sanction me with a topic ban, there is nothing I can do but accept it. Here are some points that I want to say.
  First, I am not an COI. As I have explained, my standing point was not to add anything, but instead what was written earlier shall not be stated in Wikipedia's voice; the statement was just a passing claim in the LAist news article.
  Second, Mr. Ken, it is unfair to label anyone who is against your opinions as COI. I do not literally know anybody else except myself in English Wikipedia. I do not know who the ip user (2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2) is, either. It looked funny when you called him a COI in the first place. The another ip user (2A00:23C1:8250:6F01:403A:2FB7:2915:8DBB) who talked about Wikipedia:Coatrack articles was advocating the removal of information about H.H. Dorje Chang Buddha III in IAMA. Do you want to call him a COI as well? I seriously doubt your intention of labeling me and (2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B2) as COI was to hide your own COI with H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III.
  Third, NPalgan2 mentioned that the other two articles Yi Yungao and World Peace Prize would probably attract POVpushing again in the future. I am curious what you are concerned about. I looked into your edit history and saw that you have edited those two articles as well; you created Yi Yungao and rewrote the other one considerably.
  On 24 March 2018, you wikified H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III, and changed it later to H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III. But the article Yi Yungao did not exist until 25 March 2018. It looks like your so-called "wikify" was to prepare for something in the future.
  Then you edited World Peace Prize and labeld the prize as a hoax for something happened in Tonga two decades ago. If you read Chinese, here is a news article in 2001 reporting that in a press conference Lester Wolff (the Chief Judge of World Peace Prize Awarding Council) showed a photocopy of a letter of apology written and signed by the Tonga Prime Minister for the erronous report by the Tonga Media.
  You created the article Yi Yungao slandering H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III, casted World Peace Prize in a negative tone, and placed the wikilink His Holiness Dorje Chang Buddha III (or Yi Yungao) whenever possible, in World Peace Prize, Vajradhara, and International Art Museum of America. You have literally edited all the articles that may relate to "H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III". Why do you attack a living person so persistently? I doubet whether you have an COI with the person in that you gain if the person is defamed. Sleepy Beauty (talk) 04:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I don't know Yi Yungao (aka "H.H. Dorje Chang Buddha III", a title he apparently chose for himself), his museum, or his sect from holes in the ground. I got involved with editing the IAMA article because I took a picture of the exterior of the museum building when I was in San Francisco in 2017. When I looked, I found that the article on the museum (which I had never heard of) was heavily promotional, so I helped to clean it up. Then I noticed new editors restoring or adding promotional information, one of whom admitted they were a volunteer at the museum. When I investigated, it was obvious that editors with conflicts of interest were attempting to skew the article to promote the museum. That's unacceptable.
  If you're not a COI editor, then I apologize for thinking that you were, but given the article's history, and your own WP:IDHT behavior on the talk page, I think it was a reasonable conclusion to come to, and I'm still not at all convinced that it's not true. Now we have this trolling IP editor, who I thought at first was also a COI editor, but now appears to be either someone who harbors ill will towards me or towards Wikipedia in general.
  That's the potted history of my involvement with this article. It has nothing whatsoever to do a COI on my part, and everything in the world to do with preventing Wikipedia from being used as a promotional medium. I plan to keep on editing in that manner, just as I have edited the other 42,419 unique pages I have contributed to. The particular article in question has no special meaning to me - you can choose to believe that, or not, I really don't care. I know that it's true, and I'll warrant that anyone actually familiar with the broad scope of my editing will believe that it is as well. As for you... well, as was said above -- not by me -- your complaints are without merit, and a number of editors have agreed that you should be topic-banned from the IAMA article. Whether a sufficient number will agree remains to be seen. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Here is my assessment of the previous exchange: BMK shows a remarkable degree of patience and assumption of good faith. On the other hand, Sleepy Beauty's comments at 04:20, 23 May 2018 provide additional strong evidence that this person needs a topic ban on this museum and this sect, and on Buddhism and art, broadly construed. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support Topic ban, with explicit advice to encourage the editor to concentrate on other areas. This editor has created material which has been accepted via AfC, including articles about Chinese cinema. To discourage the editor from making continued contributions in this area would be a loss. Edaham (talk) 06:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Huggums537

Huggums537 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been on a several day streak of CIR type behavior in regards to WT:N and his interactions with other editors. See this discussion on my talk page. If I weren't involved, I would indef CIR block him for being unable to work in a collaborative editing environment, but I am involved, so I will leave that to other administrators and the community to decide. This is following his restoring revisions where he talked to Serial Number 54129 like a child on my talk page: [47], [48]. Cast aspersions about me at VPP: [49], and was just generally disruptive at WP:N and WT:N (if need be, I can provide diffs, but doing ctril+f and randomly clicking next to the username should give you some idea of what is going on, and provide a clearer sense than one or two specific issues). Now he has decided to strike a comment of Legacypac's on WT:N after I had already given him multiple warnings about ceasing disruption.

This might be minor, but in my view, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back. Huggums537 has displayed a pattern of behavior that is difficult to reconcile with being competent enough to edit this project or understanding how a collaborative environment works, and I think we're at the point where the community needs to take action. TonyBallioni (talk) 12:59, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Warning him was my "mistake" User_talk:Huggums537#May_2018. Legacypac (talk) 13:26, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• If I may have a chance to defend myself, I'd like to explain some things. First of all, TonyBallioni's involvement is mainly of my own doing. I usually have a very good history of interacting with other editors, (except for one: Hijiri88), but for whatever reason, I somehow managed to get carried away and say some very offensive things to Tony. I don't know why. I have nothing against him. Anyway, I immediately stopped what I was doing, but the damage to Mr. Ballioni was already done. After that, it didn't take much to paint me in a bad light for any little thing. He has a wide circle of friends. Now I truly understand how it feels to be painted in a bad light as I did to Tony, and I fully regretted what I did as you can see here and here. I also fully understand that personal editing of that nature is NOT the function of policy talk pages in the first place.
• The offensive commenting was very wrong. However, I do think I have fair explanations for most of the other complaints because I feel that they are indeed explainable and minor as Tony mentioned.
• At WP:N I only made 2 edits in 24 hours and they were described at the talk page. Not even worth mentioning in my opinion.
• At WT:N when I struck LegacyPac's comment, I was already busy striking the offensive comments I had made, and so it only seemed natural to me to also strike a comment that I felt was accusatory toward me. Striking that comment was probably minor in and of itself, but completely understandable if you combine it with the fact I was already performing those kind of edits. Hardly disruptive at all and not even worth the warning that brought me here.
• At Tony's talk page where I "talked like a child". I think talking like a child is a little minor. The much bigger issue (and I don't know why Tony didn't bring this against me) was the original edit where I directly mocked the above referenced guest with my talking like a child. Tony reverted me and advised me not to mock people. I made a corrected revision with an apology that still still maintained as much tone as possible without mocking anyone, or else what is the point in making corrections to express yourself without maintaining tonality of your expression? Suddenly, it was not mocking that was an issue, but "talking like a child".
• I think by this last example it's pretty clear to see that if Tony didn't have a problem with one thing then he would have had a problem with another. It feels to me like he (and his friends) have just been piling up minor incidents in order to get me here. Honestly, I don't blame any of them. They are all angry at me and they probably should be. Tony didn't deserve those comments I made about him, but I really don't deserve to be here either.
• I've already been told I'm not cool, I have no respect, I'm a troll, publicly accused of things I did not do, and subjected to the humiliation of his talk page watchers alluding that I'm a fool, idiot and being mocked by them. Not to mention Hijiri88, who I've had a rivalry with for a very long time, so I'm positive we'll be hearing a LOT from him about this and so much more...
• I don't mention any of these grievances to accuse anyone. I have not mentioned any names, (except Hijiri88) and don't intend to. The purpose of mentioning these affronts is to let everyone know that I have been paying dearly for my mistakes and sucking it up, doing the best I can while seemingly being assaulted by a barrage of warnings. At least two of which were just for minor things.
• I've been civil with everyone (in spite of suffering the indignities of all the provocations), including my rival Hijiri88 (although he will disagree) and repentant for what I've done since before we even got here.

Tony, I'm very sorry for what I've done. I've tried to make it right the best I know how. I guess I'm at the mercy of the community now. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 17:06, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

You should not have a rival. You have been around long enough to know NOT to edit especially strike out other user's posts. A number of editors independently came to tell you to stop being disruptive, this is not a case of someone's friends ganging up on you. Legacypac (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you LegacyPac. Believe me, I don't want a rival. I try to avoid Hijiri88 like the plague, but he always shows up to paint me in a bad light (like he did on Tony's page) ever since we had a some run-ins when I was a new editor. He won't seem to let it go. Huggums537 (talk) 17:31, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to mention that you have probably been Tony's best friend, LegacyPac. Like when I reverted his edit, and you came to his aid to revert it back. Then, after I said all those nasty things, you were the first one there to leave a warning on my page. Tony is lucky to have a friend like you. You've stuck with him all the way up until here. If you can try to place yourself in my shoes, then it might not be that hard to imagine that when you have his best friend here and more friends coming from his talk page where he announced to all his watchers (especially Hijiri88) that this ANI was here, then it would probably really feel like you are being ganged up on. Can you agree with that? Huggums537 (talk) 18:38, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

You realize that I could have just blocked you and let you talk your way into having your TPA revoked if I really wanted to abuse my power and ignore policy, right? Also, Hijiri88 wasn’t stalking or hounding you. He’s a regular follower of my talk page, which you can see in the archives. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:11, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I DO realize that and I appreciate it very much. Huggums537 (talk) 22:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I was following the WP:N discussion and reverted an inappropriate edit. As someone very interested in deletion process of course I follow N. All this "friend" stuff shows an inability and/or unwillingness to understand how Wikipedia works. Legacypac (talk) 19:18, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I was using the term "friends" very loosely in a colloquial sense to refer to editors who are long-standing colleagues. Huggums537 (talk) 22:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Every one of my confrontations with Huggums was initiated by him, so his claim to try[ing] to avoid Hijiri88 like the plague is an obvious lie. I could go into detail if necessary, but honestly my entire history of interacting with him has been characterized by (a) him hounding me,[50] (b) him engaging in unambiguous trolling,[51] (c) him arguing with me (and a then-current member of ArbCom!) over whether it is acceptable to link bootleg YouTube uploads of copyrighted media,[52][53][54] and (d) him behaving in an exceptionally bellicose manner on project talk pages,[55] so I honestly don't know why this editor, who barely contributes to our articles to begin with (preferring to spend all of his time arguing over changes to policy) and is just a drahma-hound, has been allowed continue editing thusfar with all the trouble he has caused. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 19:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I think it's also important to notice here that most of the examples Hijiri is providing here are from a very long time ago over disputes we had in the distant past when I was a brand new editor. The most recent one being in May, where he first PROVOKED ME by behaving in an [inflammatory] exceptionally bellicose manner himself to begin with. The rest of the examples date well into last September and do not reflect the many months of good contributions that I have made without conflict with Hijiri or any other editor editor up until now with Tony and I think I have proven with Tony that there is no conflict between us, only that I made a mistake and am trying to make reparations. The only conflict seems to be arising from Hijiri, who will not let the past go. Huggums537 (talk) 05:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

    A remark about the general ineffectiveness of wikilawyering over the difference between "noteworthiness" and "notability", not even directed at you but at editors who make and/or accept such arguments (who you presumably consider to be the majority of the community), is hardly "exceptionally bellicose": you should retract that remark. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:00, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

    I'll strike that, but a remark even hinting I'm wikilawyering after we've already had past disagreements can be considered inflammatory. Huggums537 (talk) 13:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Here we go [Hijiri]. Already I'm every evil thing you can possibly imagine. Chief of them being a liar, because "Every one of my confrontations with Huggums was initiated by him" except you are the one being dishonest about that. You don't remember where YOU are the one who followed ME over here and initiated YOUR hounding/trolling to the point I had to mention it in the edit summaries as well as the talk page? Or, when you initiated contact 3 different times at here? And our most recent interaction on Tony's page where you are the one who inserted yourself into the discussion. I'd really not rather rehash all the old wounds and I wish you would just leave me alone and bury the hatchet. Yes, we have had some bitter disagreements in the past, but I have let them go and I don't go around dragging your name in the mud over it as you do me. Really, I should be more angry with you than I am the way you come on here and call me all these liars, hounds, trolls, and such. But, [I'm not.] really I pity you because you are so bitter and living like that must be like drinking poison and hoping the other person will die. At any rate, this is not related to Wikipedia or policy, so I must be done with it. Huggums537 (talk) 21:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
    • I was sympathetic to the theory that you went about disengaging from your remarks on the notability discussion page in an awkward manner, but... I suggest you may wish to reconsider some of the preceding statement? isaacl (talk) 21:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
      • You are right. I already knew it didn't have to do with Wikipedia when I said it and it won't help make things any better between Hijiri and I. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 21:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
• I wonder if a TBAN on policy pages might be in order. Seems to get too het up and then cast aspersions and says unfortunate things. One wonders.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:29, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I have successfully collaborated with editors in making policy changes before and I have also successfully implemented my own minor proposals while working well with other editors. This was an unusual incident for me and I honestly don't know what came over me. Huggums537 (talk) 21:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Here are some links to my collaborations/proposals: MoS, MoS, VP, and N. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 00:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

No, you jumped on a policy change that was going to pass whether you were involved or not, and your behaviour if anything soured the discussion: you inserted an off-topic snipe at me when I hadn't even been involved in the discussion, apparently in attempt to get me to respond.[56][57] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:06, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect. I reverted a change to policy and opened my own proposal and voted on the one that was going to pass in the process. Also, those two comments have been taken out of context to make them appear as if they are related. It doesn't bear up under scrutiny. A closer look reveals that the two comments are from two unrelated discussions. Hijiri88 is quite simply making it out to be something it is not, nor was ever intended to be. Huggums537 (talk) 22:47, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I never said they were related, and in fact my whole point was at you snuck an irrelevant snipe against me into a discussion that I wasn't even involved in. This kind of behaviour, which I'm not sure if it's worse if it's deliberate or accidental, is exactly what I was talking about with the "trolling" above -- you did so to such an extent that an admin had to come in and shut down an RSN thread because your IDHT disruption was creating so much drahma. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:36, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Where is your evidence of me being the cause of this "shut down"? Huggums537 (talk) 00:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

RSN threads rarely require admin closes. You caused so much drahma in that thread that it needed to be shut down. I linked the archive further up: the thread you hijacked is the only thread on the whole page to be closed because of drahma (the only other closed thread was closed because of a broad and near-unanimous consensus). I disagree with other editors on RSN all the time, so if there was a problem it wasn't with me: the only other editor you could possibly hoist the blame off on would be OID, and he also has cordial disagreements on RSN on a regular basis. We've even had them together. Asking for "evidence" when the I already gave the link to the archive with the close in my first comment here just looks like more wikilawyering, and it's your continuing to behave in this way even when faced with sanctions that makes me think you really are unable to change. Hijiri 88 (聖やや)

And, another question: What can I do to make things right between us? Anything? Huggums537 (talk) 00:52, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

(1) Admit you hounded me. (2) Apologize for (1). (3) Take back ... just about everything you said in the "ensemble cast" discussion(s), let the community decide that issue, and respect the community's decision. The community had already basically agreed to avoid the term before you showed up. (4) Promise never again to forum-shop like you did when you brought the "ensemble cast" problem to the Guardians of the Galaxy (film) talk page. (5) Apologize for your accusing me of hounding you by being aware of the forum-shopping in (4). (Note that the international release schedule of that film, plus some off-wiki harassment I experienced in 2014, effectively prevented me from editing that article before it pass GAN unless I wanted to spoil it for myself and put up with people accusing me of "socking" by making disclosed logged-out edits while not wanting to log in; I do, however, have the page on my watchlist.) (6) Stop behaving in a bellicose manner every time I post in a discussion involving you. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:35, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Much of this I disagree with and find to be falsely accusatory. However, there are some things that I DO take responsibility for in our disagreements that I will own up to. 1) I apologize for all the comments in the "ensemble cast" discussions, and I admit I should take those things back. 2) I have no problem letting the community decide that issue, or respecting their decision. Honestly, that decision has been ancient history as far as I have been concerned. 3) Promise to be civil with you. As far as the hounding, forum shopping, and being bellicose goes, I feel like there's no evidence of that and you are just not seeing things in the right light about me. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 13:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

How can you admit to your bellicose (or trolling) behaviour throughout the massive fustercluck over "ensemble casts" and apologize for it, but say that this claim is falsely accusatory? As for hounding, I've asked you like a dozen times how you randomly came across not only the Star Wars Holiday Special article (not inconceivable, but unlikely) but my three-month-old edits to it specifically (almost inconceivable), and you have done nothing but dodge the question: demanding "evidence" of hounding when this is all the evidence anyone should ever need, and you have been aggressively refusing to provide any counter-evidence, is just more wikilawyering. If you want more evidence, how about this: of your [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/Huggums537#top-edited-pages top five edited talk pages four are pages you followed me to and consciously !voted the opposite way to me (where applicable), and debateably the same could be said of five of your top seven pages (the reason it's debateable is that the fifth page was Talk:Star Wars: The Last Jedi in the weeks following that film's release, so while your !votes there could seem to be conscious responses to me, you have a definite excuse to have come across that page when you did). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Hijiri, I am here to answer to some SERIOUS charges against me (along with several minor ones) and you are only here to rub it in my face with your incessant bickering over petty disputes from MONTHS ago. DROP THE STICK. I am done with these juvenile debates. I offered you an apology and you did not accept. As far as I am concerned we have nothing more to say to each other. That is the most diplomatic I can be after all of the personal attacks I have endured from you. Kindly leave me alone. Huggums537 (talk) 21:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

You hounded/attacked me, and you defended said behaviour (with new attacks claiming I was hounding/attacking you) two weeks ago on NRP's talk page, one week ago on TBA's talk page, and this week here on ANI. This is not "months ago". Just keep digging... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

No comment. Huggums537 (talk) 21:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support indef CIR block as first choice, support TBAN on policy pages as second choice, possibly both if this seems necessary to the community. This user needs to write more articles before attempting to argue over difficult policy points that he feels he understands better than people who have been editing for years. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:06, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • It is well worth mentioning again that this user has a long history of holding the past against me and canvassing in order to defamate my character. A perfect example of this is here, where the sysop determined he was exaggerating about me as usual. There was also another case where he went canvassing to an admin, and it was determined by that admin. that his behaviour was equally bad as mine, but that he should be held to a higher degree of responsibility since he is an experienced editor. Huggums537 (talk) 07:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Just keep digging, I guess... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

No, in the first instance Drmies said I was probably overreacting by saying that all three of you were hounding me and that it was probably not a coincidence: one of the other editors looked legitimately like a sock of another editor who was hounding me and I successfully convinced a CU to check that (read: I had good enough reason to believe what I did that a CU agreed enough to check; also note that the original "main account" I suspected has since been blocked -- for sockpuppetry); the other user was harassing me, but it was because she harasses everyone who disagrees with her in her very narrow editing sphere, so I was able to resolve the problem simply by disengaging; that you were hounding me is now an undeniable fact.[58] And if you could provide a diff of another case where [I] went canvassing to an admin that would be great: it is generally considered poor form to make accusations like that on ANI without evidence. Anyway, even though I asked you for evidence supporting your accusations against me, I actually think it would be good idea for you to shut up and stop responding, as you're just digging your own grave at this point. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

No that's no hounding at all. Huggums537 (talk) 13:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Also, the apology you claim never existed is in that discussion. Huggums537 (talk) 15:41, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I've uncollapsed your inappropriately hidden comment. If you want to keep digging your own grave here, don't try to hide that fact. Not only did you not apologize for following me to the Holiday Special article, you repeatedly refused to even recognize the question, and in this thread you denied that it had ever happened (As far as the hounding[...] goes, I feel like there's no evidence of that). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

No Comment. Huggums537 (talk) 21:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support indef CIR block per the last couple of days and this thread: this person either doesn't know how to work on a collaborative project and is intentionally insulting others or is too dense to figure out how to do it. Either way, they are wasting our time. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • That seems slightly insulting itself, but you have a right not to be equitable with me after my behavior toward you. However, I would like to repost some of my collaborations and proposals with other editors to demonstrate that I am MORE than capable of being a productive contributor to Wikipedia: MoS, MoS, VP, and N. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 07:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support indef CIR block I told them to cut out the troll behavior and they doubled down by increasing the trolling. Mainspace contributions are not worth the grief in policy and talkpages. Legacypac (talk) 02:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I really see no evidence of this trolling behaviour. I have taken responsibility for the things I am guilty of and I immediately correct my mistakes when they are brought to my attention. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 07:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

It's been almost a year and you still haven't apologized for, or even acknowledged, your responsibility for the "ensemble casts" incident, or for following me to the Star Wars Holiday Special article, something you repeatedly refused requests to explain, including in this very thread. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

That's not true Hijiri. I have apologized to you on at least two occasions before, and again above. You never seem to want to accept my apologies. Huggums537 (talk) 15:37, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

One hour and forty-five minutes before writing the above you wrote As far as the hounding[...] goes, I feel like there's no evidence of that: how is that "apologizing" for your hounding? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

No comment. Huggums537 (talk) 21:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support TBAN on policy pages- Being perpetually angry and condescending, while not contributing much value to these discussions, is becoming disruptive. I'm not convinced that a CIR siteban is necessary yet, but that's how things will end up if Huggums537 cannot stop taking things, and making things, personal. Go do some article work. Reyk _YO! 09:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I disagree wholeheartedly with the being perpetually angry part, but you hit the nail on the head on having been condescending. I'm continually improving in that area all the time and this experience has been an excellent lesson in that department also. Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 14:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@Reyk: Makes sense, although I don't think there's much of a difference between TBANning a quasi-SPA and site-banning them - have you ever read The Merchant of Venice? Anyway, I said "indef block" in echo of Tony's opening comment, which referred explicitly to a unilateral admin action, not one of the new-fangled "community block, de facto siteban" sanctions. A block that he could appeal by attempting to convince any random admin he was willing to change would work. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Stricken because continued disruption below has convinced me that a standard block that can be undone by any uninvolved admin could and would be gamed. This editor is extremely disruptive and has refused every opportunity he has been given to behave in a more collegial manner. A full ban that needs to be appealed to the community is the only option as far as I can see. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support TBAN on wiki-policy 2nd choice / CIR indef as first choice in any venue. I have been loosely following the threads at WT:N and Tony's talk page and I have seen nothing constructive from Huggums plus walls and walls of IDHT along with either trolling or massive cluelessness. I would like to see if Huggums can contribute elsewhere or see evidence of disruption in article space before supporting an indef block. That said I do not oppose an indef, I just do not support one right now. Jbh ^Talk 14:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC) After reading through the mind numbing IDHT about never linking to infringing content at Talk:Star Wars Holiday Special#Repeated re-adding of probable comedy skit as though it was a serious interview; The rude ABF attacks at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Huggums537/Archive; and the walls of text at WT:WikiProject Film#In general should we be listing when projects were announced and when cast members joined I do not think a simple TBAN will solve the problem. I am particularly concerned about how regularly Huggums personalized conflict. Jbh ^Talk 23:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Sometimes, I do get caught up in IDHT (I can work on that), but more frequently I contribute to constructive discussions like these: MoS, MoS, VP, and N. This is going to sound funny- but, I'm clueless as to where this idea about the trolling and massive cluelessness is coming from. Huggums537 (talk) 15:37, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

This. This is the cluelessness or trolling - clueless if genuine; trolling if not. Agreeing with criticism, doing nothing to actually change and continuing to do the same of similar thing over and over again. Your conversation with Tony on his talk page was a great example of this. All you had to do was disengage once you said that was what you were going to do. All you had to do on WT:N was disengage. It would help your cause here if you would disengage as well. The characteristic which most commonly causes an editor facing a limited sanction to get indefed is not knowing when to simply stop speaking. Jbh ^Talk 20:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I understand completely what you are saying and your advice is very sound. Honestly, I'm scared. I know I've done something wrong and that's what makes me feel like I have to keep defending myself. I'm afraid that if I disengage, the community will not have mercy on me and realize my value, or my penitent regret for my actions. That's what keeps me here, not being clueless or trolling. It's so hard to sit back and watch the community judge you without at least saying a word or two in response. This is so difficult. Huggums537 (talk) 21:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

P.S. Thank you for noticing that I have almost no disruptions in article space and I have some history of fighting vandalism/welcoming new users as well. In addition to that, I was able to resolve conflicts fairly well even when I was a brand new editor. A (somewhat) lengthy example of that process appears here on my talk page. Thanks.

I do not know whether you are disruptive in main space or not. I have not looked. If anyone were to present evidence of behavior in main space similar to your project space behavior I would support an indefinite block in a heart beat. I may yet do so should you continue with the bludgeoning in this thread. Jbh ^Talk 20:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support both TBAN and Indef: Net negative to the project. Someone who bites and bites until met with someone who can actually bite back is not collaborative behavior. That's a bully. --Tarage (talk) 18:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Wow. I've never, ever been known for bullying anyone. In fact, I think this is the first time I've ever been called a bully in my life. I don't even know what to say. Although, I can honestly say that I see how my behavior might come across that way after the how I acted with Tony. However, that was highly unusual for me and I still don't know what came over me because Tony has shown me nothing if not patience and respect in spite of everything that has happened and I have tried to do my best to return the favor. Huggums537 (talk) 19:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I say you've been bullying me, and something like half your edits to an entire namespace (your third most-edited namespace) have related to your bullying campaign against me. You have been aggressively refusing, in this thread, to apologize for or even recognize this behaviour. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

No comment. Huggums537 (talk) 21:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

You should consider commenting less, as responding to every vote against you can be seen as bludgeoning. --Tarage (talk) 22:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

And FFS stop replying "No comment" to everything. Even saying "No comment" IS a comment. --Tarage (talk) 22:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, these comments (3.5 on this page, one on his talk page where he curiously pinged me to tell me he had no comment ... !?) come across more like deliberate trolling (something he did before in the RSN thread last summer, linked above) than him finally "getting" my constant hints about holes. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support TBAN on Wikipedia policy, broadly construed - someone who drains the community's time and energy like this despite being given ample guidance on how to conduct themselves from multiple users is a net negative. Like Jbh, I foresee an indef based around CIR if such behaviour continues elsewhere. Additionally, the 'no comment' comments are sailing very close to the tendentious wind for my liking. Richard⁰⁶¹² 22:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• More trolling? Does this look like a joe-job to anyone else? Then again, it could be a double-joe-job by someone trying to set Huggums up... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)(stricken 01:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC))

Probably unrelated. Seemed more like they were trying to get me in trouble than anything else. And to our anonymous troll, I am more than capable of doing that myself without your help thank you very much. --Tarage (talk) 23:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yep. Looks like there is a signature forging troll stalking the board. I noticed they did the same thing to, I think, Anna Frosdiak (sp?) on a thread about COI a couple of days ago. I do not know if there have been more instances but I would not be surprised if there were. Jbh ^Talk 01:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Okay, just a random troll. Sorry for the mixup. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment: Recent developments (referenced by the "joe-job" mentioned by Hijiri above) have caused me to see that this forum is far too is easily exploitable to WP:GAMING the system than I realized, and I don't have a snowball's chance in defending my freedom fairly. This, combined with the fact that I am STILL a relatively new editor when compared to the majority of my accusers, demonstrates that the "ganging up on" I mentioned early on is the prime example of why I have no chance at a "fair fight" for my freedom. Unless Tony and his friends take pity on me, or some truly uninvolved admins./editors get involved, then I don't really have much else to say. Thank you. Huggums537 (talk) 07:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

So ... I make a good-faith observation based on the information available to me, then when other editors correct me with new information retract and apologize for said observation, and you respond by accusing me of WP:GAMING? How would it even be gaming? Are you insinuating that I logged out and made an edit that would look like you pulling a joe-job, then made said accusation myself? (Why would I incriminate myself by saying it could be a double-joe-job by someone trying to set Huggums up if that was what I was doing, BTW?)

This would be laughable if it weren't so disappointing: if only you had responded to other editors correcting you like I did above, you wouldn't be in this mess. It's now obvious that you have no desire to edit collaboratively, so I'm withdrawing my support for a "standard" block that can be unilaterally undone by any admin: you need to get community approval to have your editing privileges restores, as you've now destroyed my last shred of faith that you might improve.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I haven't accused anyone of anything. I only demonstrated the example that this forum is far too susceptible to gaming. Stop bludgeoning me with your comments please and thank you. Huggums537 (talk) 09:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support TB's proposal. Perhaps MRD applies; so I deliberately left off involvement in this thread to see how Huggums537 responded. Anything indicating a reformist character would have gone a long way; as the fella says, this isn't personal, it's business. Unfortunately, however, I see no such evidence. Continued wikilawyering—check. Continued passive-aggressive attempts at patronising seasoned editors—check. Continued bludgeoning and obfuscation of discussion—check. Ability to demonstrate the (pretty low) levels of competence we require around here—uncheck. Suggest the editor may require a period—six months is traditional—in which to gather their thoughts, focus their attention, and either return a conscientious member of the community—or find another social forum. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 10:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Serial Number 54129: Could you clarify what you mean by "TB's proposal"? I would assume you are contrasting an indefinite block with a TBAN ("TB's proposal" vs. "Dlohcierekim's proposal"), but there's some disagreement between those of us who support the former specifically but don't see a need for the latter, those who support both, those who support the latter but not necessarily the former at this time, those who support the latter but can be inferred to (?) oppose the former as excessive, and even among those who support the former whether it should be a "community" block (a de facto site-ban, just without the formal stigma of no longer being considered a Wikipedian) or a block by a random admin that can also be undone by a random admin (which was theoretically what TB's OP comment was supporting. That said, if any admin decided at this point to close this as "I'm blocking Huggums on my own initiative; any admin who disagrees is free to undo this action" would probably be in the wrong given the near-unanimous support. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment: This is ridiculous. I am going to burn at the stake with this witchhunt. I would like to request a voluntary temporary TBAN to policy pages for my conduct towards Tony. Huggums537 (talk) 14:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

So what you are saying is that you are still denying 90% of all wrongdoing? If you wanted to TBAN yourself from policy pages you could have done that at any time, but now that you've been brought to ANI for a whole range of disruptive behaviour, much of which has nothing to do with policy pages, it really isn't enough to deny that you've done anything wrong to anyone except Tony, and in fact this just shows the same kind of recalcitrant attitude that brought you here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

It's a simple request for a voluntary temporary TBAN to policy pages for my conduct. I am not, and will not engage you in denying anything. I have already kindly asked you to leave me alone and stop bludgeoning me with your comments. Please STOP NOW. Huggums537 (talk) 14:42, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

He's only got 300 odd mainspace edits and at the current rate of responding to every comment (including comments telling him to stop responding to comments) his ANi edit count will surpass his mainspace edit count. This user is WP:NOTHERE except to troll. Can some admin block him so uninvolved editors can have a proper ANi discussion. Legacypac (talk) 14:34, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (This re to Huggums above) You do realize, I hope, that this is unlikely to head off the indefinite block which consensus is forming for. You combine hyperbole with assumptions of bad faith and generalized attacks on the editors commenting here ("Tony's gang friends.", etc) all the while not understanding why your behavior is problematic ("This is ridiculous", "witch-hunt", etc) Combined with your continued bludgeoning of this and the thread on Tony's talk page, no matter how many times you said you were dropping an issue means I, for one, do not believe you will change your behavior.

Some, more generous than I, might yet argue that a TBAN is sufficient as a first try. To them I would point out how you regularly personalize disputes, even here "if Tony didn't have a problem about one thing it would be another", "really I pity you being so bitter..." (yeah you struck it is of a kind with similar comments you made elsewhere and I don't feel like digging up diffs) and how, even as you seem to acknowledge criticism you do nothing to improve your behavior.

I mentioned to you earlier how failing to know when to stop typing was one of the most common causes of indefs on this board. This seems to be a consistent failure you have in threads - if you had dropped it at the noticeboard nothing would have occurred on Tony's talk page, if you had dropped it on Tony's page there would not be a thread here, if you had dropped it here... you get the point. Jbh ^Talk 14:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

He does not get the point... which is why we are here. He replied to Hijii88 after my last post. Legacypac (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Just to note that I have blocked Huggums537 indefinitely based on the emerging consensus of this discussion. My rationale can be seen here ([59]). Alex Shih (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
• Note I reverted the NAC because there needs to be a determination of whether this thread will make the block a community endorsed indef or if it will remain a simple block. This is important because it determines whether Huggums needs to appeal to the community or just a single admin for their unblock.
  Alex made a good block to curtail further disruption of this thread but he made no indication he was forestalling a consensus outcome here. (@Alex Shih: can you clairify? Your note on Hughes's talk page says he can appeal with a simple unblock. Was it your intention for that to be the outcome of this or separate from consensus here? If so would you please close this as such to avoid confusion. --Thanks) I believe a consensus exists, or is forming, for this to be a community indef. One editor above even said A full ban that can only be appealed to the community is the only option I can see. (Courtesy ping @Eggishorn:) Jbh ^Talk 18:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Jbhunley, thank you for the comments. To answer your question, I think you are conflating blocks with bans. As far as I can see, the proposal here is indefinite CIR block; that is the result of this community discussion. What is going to happen is the blocked editor will make a unblock request, and then both the blocking administrator and this community discussion will be referred to in that discussion. The only way this potential unblock request would be granted is to include the unblock condition of wide topic ban suggested here. If the unblock request is declined, the editor may request block review/community appeal; if the community appeal is declined, then we are in the WP:CBAN area. I believe this is the correct process; it is improper to propose straight community ban to editors without extensive prior block log and history of disruption anyway. I will leave this thread open as I anticipated more follow up discussions. Alex Shih (talk) 00:41, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
    • @Alex Shih: I had thought that a community placed block could not be overturned without a community discussion (WP:NEVERUNBLOCK When the block is implementing a community sanction which has not been successfully appealed.) but I see that 'community sanction' is a wikilink to WP:CBAN. Thank you for clearing that up for me. It does make more sense that way. Cheers! Jbh ^Talk 01:10, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Alex Shih: I don't have the links on hand right now, but following an RFC last summer "community blocks" are now a thing. My understanding is that they are functionally very close to bans. I alluded to the distinction between a "standard" block and a "community" one several times above, and even formally withdrew my support for the former when it became clear that Huggums was never going to change. I'll dig up the RFC, but it might take a little while as I'm out and on a phone now. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_140&oldid=794137080#Unblocking_after_community-imposed_block and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Banning_policy/Archive_8&oldid=814981039#Proposed_clarifying_change_here_and_to_blocking_policy Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:22, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

On a re-read of your comment, it seems like you may have already known what I was telling you. Sorry about that. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:12, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The authority for the community to agree to block an editor only comes from its authority to enact an editing sanction that bans the editor from editing. The changes that were made just changed the language so if someone thinks that there is a difference between a community-imposed block and a ban, they are regardless appealed in the same way. In other words, the changes reinforces that the two are equivalent. isaacl (talk) 09:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

So, technically we do need a close to distinguish whether Huggums537 is to be subject to a community block or not. After this exercise in applied cluelessness and canvassing I am not sure it really matters though. It would take an exceptionally brave admin to unblock and as Alex says, whomever does unblock will be asked to place solid conditions/restrictions on Huggums future editing. So, I don't object to closing this thread and leaving the block as an admin block. Jbh ^Talk 18:31, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Post CANVASS break

Now that he has summoned about 45 editors to his talkpage to extend the drama perhaps revoking talkpage access as well is in order. Legacypac (talk) 19:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I have just been pinged to User talk:Huggums537, presumably with the hope I will speak on his behalf. First of all I am not familiar with the conflict so I am not going to argue against the notion that some kind of sanction is warranted, but I have to say an indefinite block for an editor who has never been blocked before seems a little...extreme. For my part I have only collaborated once with Huggums537 at List of films in the public domain in the United States, but his conduct there gave me no cause for concern. I found him to be a collegiate editor. Therefore whatever problems exist I believe there is potential there. Obviously editors can sometimes be problematic in a particular area, or the relationship between two editors can break down, and these issues need to be addressed, but has his behavior been so severe that we just wash our hands of him? Couldn't we try block escalation first i.e. a week, a month and so on before getting to an indef? IBANs and topic bans are worth considering if the problematic behavior is localised. Betty Logan (talk) 19:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I was pinged based on a substantial discussion that we were both involved in. In that they contributed substantially, intelligently and politely. I only looked at that and the above; I don't know the overall situation. But it seems to me they are pretty good overall but sometimes have emotional moments and really "lose it" , but then clearly admit guilt and are self-effacing and apologize. Indef seems very harsh considering. Maybe some intermediate measure? Also, should they be blocked from participating in this discussion which is about them? They appear to say that this is the case. North8000 (talk) 20:54, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I endorse the indef by Alex Shih, but don't see a need to make this a community-endorsed block at this time. Indef != infinite. I'd recommend that any unblock come with discouragement (if not an outright block) on editing policy pages for 6+ months. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:07, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• Seems like overkill. Huggums537 appears to be taking the criticism and advice on their own talk page well to heart and in stride. At Wikipedia talk:Notability, I see a rational discussion, which got sidetracked into an interpersonal dispute (we all know that can happen), mostly over an apparent misunderstanding on the part of Huggums537 (and considerable testiness from that quarter), followed by a good-faith attempt to propose a compromise (even if perhaps a clumsy one, or an unnecessary one). At User talk:TonyBallioni and archives thereof, I see attempts by Huggums537 to clarify, intermixed with self-justifications or defenses, some mild counter-criticism ("All I have asked is that you consider the possibility that you've made some errors in judgement as well."), and contrite agreement to lay off ("I have no reason to take you [TonyBallioni] to ANI. Need I remind you that I already agreed to drop all accusations against you even before you posted the warning on my page?", and "Fine, I'm dropping the stick then. ... I'd like to add one last apology that I'm sorry I mouthed off to you. You've proven that I barked up the wrong tree."), and acceptance of some blame ("Look, I'm very sorry that I made things personal for you, because when I'm honest with myself, I realize that the only reason you have been taking things so personally is because I made them personal in the first place."). It really doesn't look like a renewal of hostilities, but a typical (though wordy) non-admin reaction to warnings from an admin one has also recently been in a dispute with. The earlier material, characterized as talking to someone else like they're a child [60] really doesn't strike me that way at all, but as fairly typical pointed sarcasm, implying that the other is treating Huggums like a child. Regardless, it wasn't an actionable comment, and the dispute between Huggums and TonyB about the latter removing the comment and the former restoring an edited copy of it isn't really an administrative or ANI matter, it's a conflict between the principle of not censoring others' posts versus the principle that people can do what they want with their own talk pages (on TonyB's talk page, the latter presumptively wins, but it's a silly conflict anyway, and not really an ANI issue).

  I'm not seeing a WP:CIR problem here, more like a judgement error on Huggums537 part which cascaded into a bit of a mess, and some inter-personal conflict that seems mostly to just be personality differences. I agree that the recent post to User talk:Huggums537 is, more or less, canvassing, but the end result of it hasn't had a canvassed effect, but more of a user-educational one in Huggums's direction. I don't know how active Huggums537 has been lately, or exactly where we might collectively think this editor should be on the WP-insider cluefulness scale at this point. Is the line really so bright we'd be considering a ban? When the editor has a clean block log until just now? I remain skeptical. Especially since Hijiri88 commented in Sept. 2017: "You have scarcely 600 edits to your name". I.e., Huggums537 is basically still a rather new-ish editor. It took me way longer than that short span to fully absorb the subculture here. Anyway, I have interacted with the editor before, but nothing about those interactions sticks out in my mind. Looking them over, e.g. Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 15, Wikipedia talk:No original research/Archive 61, Wikipedia talk:Notability/Archive 61, nothing seems weird or wrongheaded; it's just typical editorial discussion, and a genuine interest in understanding exactly how our sourcing policies work. The current block and its eventual expiration appear to be sufficient to me. If it has the intended effect, then all will be well. If it doesn't there's no longer a clean block log, plus this ANI considering something more drastic, so new examination would surely closely quickly and decisively.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment – I was one of the editors pinged as well to User talk:Huggums537, and I fully agree with Betty's comment above. All of my interactions with him have been civil, and from what I've witnessed, his intentions and contributions have always seemed fairly honest, despite the occasional dispute I witnessed with Hijiri 88. The couple times I was caught up in the crossfire between the two, it seemed that both editors were equally heavy-handed on the bickering and personal jabs being lobbed back and forth. It was clear their distaste for one another began long before any of the discussions I participated in.
  Fast-forwarding to this conflict involving Tony and others, I haven't looked at the details closely, but the behavior on Huggums537's part certainly appears troubling on the surface. I was also surprised to learn that his number of mainspace edits is as low as it is considering the amount of participation on article and policy talk pages. Perhaps swift action is required to ensure it doesn't continue, but a long-term block or ban on an editor that hasn't been through the ringer before seems like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut at this stage. I think it's been made crystal clear that this kind of behavior won't be tolerated any longer, so any additional chances given (if that even happens at this point) shouldn't be squandered. I'm not sure Huggums537 truly recognized before this discussion how quickly the community can come together to take action. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• He literally canvassed anyone he had a positive interaction with and linked to the discussions. This is ridiculous. No, it is not overkill, we’ve indef’d without an ounce of discussion editors for less than the disruption he has caused (this thread and the mess on this talk page being the two most recent examples. I also think Jbhunley should have let the NAC be and dealt with this through the standard appeals process rather than what we have now: a de facto appeal of editors hand picked by Huggums. This should be reclosed, he should appeal via the normal processes and not be allowed to make this even more of a circus then he already has. If anything, the “appropriate notice” stunt makes the indef more valid. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  @TonyBallioni: Yeah... bad call on my part, should have let it lie. Good process is not worth bad drama. Duly clue fished. Jbh ^Talk 04:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  Not your fault, I’ve just reached the point with this editor where I’m tired and don’t have any good faith left to give, which takes a lot for me. I respect the views of others here (including those “notified”), but I feel we’re being played, and have for a while. I’m not commenting any further, but I did want to note my frustration/objections that a pretty standard block (CIR for a newbie who messes with policy stuff and wiki lawyers) is being turned into a larger time suck than we’d expect from an actually controversial block. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:07, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  Huggums claims (in the user talk discussion) to have also solicited the input of those he/she was arguing with, not just "anyone he had a positive interaction with". I have not personally analyzed the interactions, I'm just noting what Huggums has said about them. If Huggums were a longer-term user, probably would've just posted a note on their own user or user talk page expressing disgruntlement with the ANI action (without any pings) and there'd be enough watchers and visitors to attract the same level of mixed attention. I'm finding it difficult to see what the difference is in practical terms – what effect it's supposed to have had on these proceedings. We're considering a community ban and/or a topic ban and/or an indef block and/or lessening of that last to a shorter fixed-term block, and it's all being discussed on the merits of the various claims about the behaviors and (even more so, as usual) on personal feelings about the matter. ANI business as usual.

  I also think we're rushing to a skull-cracking approach without sufficient cause. I'm much more favorable than the average editor is toward T-banning people from policy discussions on competence/disruption grounds, but this editor isn't bringing out that urge in me (especially given the much larger amount of evidence of long-term, unconstructively-motivated disruption normally required to procure such a result – in some cases it's taken years, and half a dozen AE, ANEW, and other noticeboard actions).
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  I think he’s a troll who is playing us, but I’ve also been dealing with walls of text on four different pages and edits I can only describe as intentionally playing dumb in small ways to make people mad (the last restoration of a reverted comment on my talk page was, the striking of Legacypac’s commebts, etc.) I don’t think that can be solved as it is a suitability to edit a collaborative project thing, so I think indef is the way to go. I recognize that different people can view things differently, and I certainly respect your views, but I’m not seeing any reason to assume good faith here: he doesn’t know how to play nice in the sandbox and doesn’t want to learn. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:44, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I suspect you're right. The guy just seems... off somehow, and I can't really articulate why. Maybe it's the fawning gratitude for all the advice he's being given while still making backhanded passive-aggressive complaints about everything; it sounds a lot like "I've been bad and need to change my behaviour even though everyone's out to crucify poor little me!" I dunno. I've previously dealt with people feigning misunderstandings to exasperate me too, so I might just be over-sensitive to the tactic. Reyk _YO! 07:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I completely respect the views of others as well that support an indef block/ban, as I'm sure many here understand the process and the type of behavior that warrants it better than I do. However, I can't help but wonder what the harm is in allowing one more chance. Maybe I'm being naive, but it seems with all the eyes we have on this now that it wouldn't be hard to convince the community to swiftly motion for an indef block or SBAN if and when another violation occurs. Grievances have been adequately cataloged here and can be easily referenced in any future ANI/CBAN discussion. I concede the fact that I was not personally involved in this conflict, so I don't want this to come off as insensitive to those that were directly impacted. --GoneIn60 (talk) 11:02, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Just to reiterate what GoneIn60 has said. I am not second-guessing the verdict in this case, or trying to make light of the problem. There clearly is a problem. I can understand the dim view taken of the blatant canvassing but couldn't we at least try the TBAN on policy first? The policy TBAN received considerable support above (from editors actively involved in the case, not just outsiders such as me), and if he violates the condition then it is easy enough to reinstate the indef. The fact is people do sometimes change their behavior on Wikipedia when the community makes it clear they won't stand for it, and I appreciate it is always a punt because we have been let down many times when we have handed out second chances, but sometimes editors do come good as well. This is a relatively inexperienced editor who has nevertheless been around for a decade so maybe it's worth the punt? Betty Logan (talk) 12:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I would just like to note for Betty Logan and GoneIn60 that I started out supporting a TBAN as you suggested but after reading three threads spread out over nearly a year, all of which exhibited the same problematic behavior[61]. So, this is not just a one off ang Huggums behavior at their talk page simply reinforces my decision. In my opinion all of the 'thank you' etc responses are, at best, formulaic and at worst insincere. Whatever they are they are not indications this editor is going to change their behavior.

Please read through the threads I mentioned in my diff. I think you will see the same IDHT, cluelessness, personalizing of disputes and outright personal attacks as in the threads which were the direct cause of this ANI. A TBAN on policy pages will not work because their disruption has occurred on article talk pages, user talk pages, WikiProject pages, here and on policy pages. Maybe someone can come up with a sanction short of indef that can address Huggums537's behavior but I can not think of anything which would not either end up with long term disruption of talk pages like we saw before Huggums pushed Tony (I mean, damn, it takes a lot to exasperate him.) to open this. If Huggums had shown any evidence of change I would not be pushing this but they just mouth platitudes and carry on as before. Thank you for plowing through my, longer than intended, appeal. Jbh ^Talk 13:08, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Weak support for Topic Ban over Indef: Commenting as a tagged user at Huggums' Talk page, though I previously only had one serious interaction with them, and that was several months ago. I am fairly loath to say anything here given I'm mostly saying anything at all because I got tagged (which is to say that I saw this thread previously and the username sounded familiar, but I couldn't place it until I got tagged). My only substantial comment is that if it was appropriate to only topic ban BrightR (talk · contribs)[62], who in my estimation was far more disruptive and confrontational (and perhaps is continuing to be so, but this thread isn't about them) even in their own ANI thread, then I'm not sure how there's a good case for indeffing Huggums versus showing them the same degree of restraint and hoping that will be the last we hear of it. Reluctantly yours, DonIago (talk) 12:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  • An indef forces a conversation: that is the main reason for it. BrightR is an established user, and rightly or wrongly, we usually prefer TBANing to blocks in those cases. This is a new(ish) editor who has already started off being disruptive, and when disruption is focused on project space pages this early in a wiki-career, that is usually a communication and temperament problem vs. a "this is a productive editor elsewhere who just needs to focus elsewhere." problem. Indef Huggums will have to explain and convince an admin in UTRS that he isn't going to waste more time if his talk page is restored, and then he'll have to convince another admin that he understands the reasons he was blocked. It's usually one of the better ways for dealing with issues like this, rather than banning in one area and seeing someone move to another to find a new way to be disruptive. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

NOTFORUM at Talk:Campaign Against Antisemitism

• ZScarpia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Campaign Against Antisemitism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User ZScarpia is unusually resistant to any attempt to archive out or hat WP:NOTFORUM commentary he posted to Talk:Campaign Against Antisemitism a year and a half ago. The article is controversial, and his comments invoke unreliable sources to no obvious purpose, there's no actionable edit request, just copmmentary based on polemic. Example: [63] It's very unusal in my experience for anyone to so determinedly revert archival of talk page commentary. Guy (Help!) 14:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

The purpose of my comments is to provide links to sources which help to outline positions, including the pro-Palestinian one, which are sceptical about the Campaign Against Antisemitism. Although the linked to sources don't themselves fit the definition of reliable, they cite sources or link to material that does. JzG dashed off a string of justifications for removing my comments on my talkpage, none of which are valid in my opinion, misapplying as they do Wikipedia policy. It's very unusual in my experience of anyone to so determinedly try to remove another editors talkpage comments. My understanding is that, unless talkpage comments are clearly in breach of policy, other editors shouldn't be attempting to do that, especially when asked to desist. My guess is that JzG is targeting my comments because they link to material which offends his political sensibilities rather than for any valid reason.     ←   ZScarpia   16:16, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Talk page comments that are clearly off-topic or otherwise violate Wikipedia's policies and guidelines can be removed by other users, per WP:TPO. Besides, the discussions involved here haven't been active in over a year. They're perfect candidates for archival. clpo13_(talk) 17:01, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

If the comments are off-topic or otherwise violate WIkipedia policies or guidelines, please explain how. If the length of the talkpage had become such that it was desirable to start archiving older comments, I could understand, but that's not the way it looks to me. And if it was the case, wouldn't the preferred method be to properly set up archiving of the talkpage?     ←   ZScarpia   17:39, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I examined the material and it seems to be relevant to the article topic and not in breach of the rules. In my opinion, JzG's removal of it is a violation of talk page procedure. Zero^talk 18:48, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

It's not a violation of TPO to archive or even delete year-old comments that have never been responded to, and those comments are completely without value: We don't source content to other wikis, and opinion pieces can't be used for claims of fact. They read more like an editor grasping for sources to complain about the article than an editor offering new sources that contradict a reading of the article. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:30, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

It's perfectly fine to archive old material that has attracted no discussion. Talkpages aren't meant as shrines for a particular editor's comments, particularly if they've produced no response. Acroterion (talk) 21:48, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I outlined the purpose of my comments in my first comment; the response they were designed to provoke wasn't a discussion on the talkpage as such, but the reading of an alternative take on the Campaign Against Antisemtism, influencing the content of the article. I've been an editor on Wikipedia for quite a long time (though not very active of late) and I can't recall ever having seen talkpage comments being deleted because they've failed to elicit replies. In fact, in the IP area I'm sure that deleting the comments of your opponents was discouraged.     ←   ZScarpia   22:24, 21 May 2018 (UTC) [Edit Conflict]

Old, inactive discussions are often archived, though not on every talk page, and there's no hard and fast rule saying when they should or shouldn't be (see WP:ARCHIVE). JzG created Talk:Campaign Against Antisemitism/Archive_1 when he removed those discussions, although he didn't put an archive box on the main talk page that would link to that page, which I'll do now. clpo13_(talk) 22:30, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the archive link.     ←   ZScarpia   08:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Wouldn't the normal reason for starting archival be to shorten the length of the talkpage? If shortening the talkpage had been JzG's intention, wouldn't he have removed the older comments first? There are two, both started by me, one of which, incidentally, hasn't elicited any replies, the other which has, but only because part of it was deleted/vandalised. And why was he so determined to delete those two comments, using a number of not very convinving pretexts, ignoring my objections (I had hoped to add to the comments as other material became available) and failing to add a link to the archive he'd created?     ←   ZScarpia   06:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

"Wouldn't the normal reason for starting archival be to shorten the length of the talkpage?" No, that would not be the case. Article talk page are archived in order to remove completed discussions, out-of-date commentary, or NOTAFORUM material which crowds the page and makes it more difficult for editors to focus on the page's purpose, which is to discuss potential changes to the article.Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:25, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I have restored the archiving of the material originally archived by Guy, per the clear consensus in this discussion that doing so was within normal Wikipedia procedures. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I think it is very much within reasonable discretion to archive talk page comments that are between one and two years old, have not generated any replies, and are not suggesting or discussing changes to the article. A talk page is not an indefinite repository of external links. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:06, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Clpo13's addition of the Archive link makes the removal less like a deletion and transforms it into something I can easily live with. At least I can easily access the links myself now and they don't have garish WP:NOTAFORUM signs pasted all over them. Hopefully the number of editors who found my comments useful outweighs the number who thought they were making the talkpage less readable. JzG should feel free to archive my earlier comments too. That would at least make it look more like his motive was cleaning up the talkpage.     ←   ZScarpia   08:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

NOTHERE at VPR, cont.

Government Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Repeated ridiculous "proposals" at WP:VPR. English-challenged. Repeated missing punctuation at end of sentence. Repeated failure to sign. If this is not a sock of the Saturday-indeffed Milchsnuck I'll eat your hat, but in any case the behavior is identical to that that earned Milchsnuck an indefinite block. Milchsnuck requested adminship 2 months after Government Man asked WP:Teahouse how they could become an admin.[64] ―Mandruss ☎ 18:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• SPI is thataway --> but they already know about it, privately. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:38, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Right. As I indicated, the Milchsnuck experience suggested that NOTHERE was enough in these circumstances, so I hoped to avoid the buro. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• For the record, the accounts are  Unrelated. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 11:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

should there be a Wipedian High Council: Holy Karmafist, Batman!-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 22:37, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Chancellor!?-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, please good very good idea for Wikipedia. Elect for me to be Mr. Wikipedia Chancellor. I am great job for Wikipedia. I will have Emergency Powers for cabal. Elect today to rule admin corpse. Natureium (talk) 01:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

This would require approval from Bishzilla.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Dlohcierekim: Perhaps if you let me be Supreme Chancellor, I could have prevented him from creating pointless articles. Natureium (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Long-term abuse by IP editor at World's largest palace

As far as I can tell, there is a multiple-IP editor with a history of disruptive editing and personal attacks at World's largest palace going back to at least March who apparently refuses to discuss their changes despite reverts by many other editors. Here are some diffs that I could find, in order:

1. 13 March 2018: no source, wrong section to put the statement in;
2. 14 March 2018, then followed by [65], [66], [67]: idem, when some patrollers reverted their edits;
3. 14 March 2018: unsourced, incoherent;
4. 1 April 2018, [68], [69], [70], [71] (in this one they put the same unsourced incoherent statement in multiple places in the article): Idem, repetitively putting this back in as the patrollers reverted these changes;
5. 1 April 2018: Profanity ("STOP DUMD EDITWAR FUC**** IDIOTS") as the IP editor removed excess copies of their statement;
6. 1 April 2018: Insulting HaeB ("stop editwar dumb idiot and study historie, look all other palaces in the list then u can sse too... or blind and dumb?") when this user reverted the edit and asked to cite sources;
7. 7 April 2018, 9 April 2018, 9 April 2018 (unexplained content removal), 9 April 2018 (idem, reverting a patroller's revert), 9 April 2018 (putting the incoherent statement back in and profanity in the edit summary), 9 April 2018, 11 April 2018, 13 April 2018, 21 May 2018;
8. 22 May 2018: here the IP editor is claiming that the Forbidden City palace is in Bandar Seri Bagawan, contrary to the Imperial Palace wikilink immediately before his edit, and the Guiness World Records source immediately after. Say what?

At this point I, unaware of this prior history, came in from the recent-edits stream and tried the usual process of putting warning templates on the user's page: first warning, multiple IPs warning. At this point, the IP editor reverted the warnings on their talk page and put the nonsense back in with a personal attack ("u can see here too dumbass").

After this, I hoped they would be open to a discussion and tried to go through the problems with each change on the IP editor's talk page, then reverted the nonsense with an edit summary clearly pointing to the talk page. However, this IP editor shortly reverted my revert with a personal attack ("stop war dumb russian").

Would it be possible to do something about this? Thank you. Ivgnyl (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

The last IP edit was vandalism- reverted/warned. I semi-protected the page.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

User:Wingwraith - #2

what? again? -- Dlohcierekim (talk) 19:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I do not know what has riled them up, but Wingwraith entered into Talk:Venezuelan presidential election, 2018 harassing numerous users. I have seen the discussions regarding Wingwraith's behavior here and here. I do not believe that they have improved their behavior at all and in fact, I think that not facing discipline has only reinforced their poor behavior.

Regarding the article Venezuelan presidential election, 2018, which is fairly contentious, Wingwraith entered calling edits "fucking dumbshit" and harassing users. The user then removed sourced information from the article because it was from TeleSUR (Venezuelan state-run media). I responded to Wingwraith's edits in the talk page telling them to stop with the harrassment and then politely explained that I would find better sources than TeleSUR, knowing it is a potentially biased source.

I proceeded to replace each source individually so I could show Wingwraith that progress was being made and TeleSUR sources were being removed (see: [1], [2], [3]). I thought that the dispute was done. However, Wingwraith reappeared laughing off the call to end harrassment, saying "There is no harassment, just because you happened to like the garbage that the OP posted with doesn't make what I did harassment". He then described me as "pro-Maduro" twice in condescending edits,[4][5] later performing dubious edits such as removing sourced material and vandalizing the coding of sources (The Independent → The Indeptelendent, in reference to TeleSUR).

After witnessing this rude behavior that has not been remedied through dialogue in countless cases, I recommend a possible topic ban regarding communist/socialist topics as I see the user has a poor history regarding these types of articles.----ZiaLater (talk) 07:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Not a fan of his casting aspirations by claiming editors are pro/anti whatever. Considering that TIAYN was just blocked, and Wingwraith's behavior has not improved, I'm going to suggest a topic ban from political articles and talk pages, broadly construed. Until he can calm down the rhetoric I think this is sadly required. --Tarage (talk) 07:28, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@ZiaLater: I haven't been harassing you or anybody on that talkpage, you know it and it is disingenuous for you to say that. This kind of edit which that user (has made across multiple articles) is just ridiculous, hence why I used that kind of language to attack not the user but the argument by that user. There is no reason why any editor should make that kind of statement (as an opening statement no less) and there is no reason why any editor who objects to that kind of statement should just take it lying down. My description of you as pro-Maduro was not a slur, it was based on your editing record for that article, where you've predominantly inserted positive material into the article using highly problematic sources, and your reverts upon my informing you of WP:PUS did not go anywhere near removing all of the material that was sourced to telesur but did not include views of the governments of Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Uruguay, and Bolivia. I stopped my reverting of your revert after the intervention by Jamez42 and have been collaborating with that user on the talkpage ever since which makes this report by you all the more ludicrous. Of course I'm also ready to collaborate with you (our problems won't ever get resolved otherwise) but it doesn't seem like you want to do that with this administrative filing. Wingwraith (talk) 08:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@ZiaLater:I had a closer look at your editing history and I take the pro-Maduro description back as it seems like you are a more impartial editor than I thought - I'll admit it at least you're a more impartial than me. That said can you please fix this telesur issue because it really just degrades the quality of the article. Wingwraith (talk) 10:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Casting aspirations is a bad thing to do here Wing. You need to stop. --Tarage (talk) 09:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Fine. Wingwraith (talk) 10:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Tarage: I think you meant to say WP:Casting aspersions? --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I fail at spelling. Don't think that was worth a ping. --Tarage (talk) 18:13, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Boundarylayer and abortion

Boundarylayer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is topic banned from articles related to abortion. I have just issued a one-time warning. Numerous recent edits violate the topic ban: [72], [73], [74], [75] are unambiguously related to abortion. This restriction should be understood as being broadly construed, but in this case even a narrow construction shows this to be in the scope of your topic ban.

Any further edits in this area should result in an immediate block. Guy (Help!) 09:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Link to pertinent discussion-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I wish to now have this ban overturned, as usual, it was orchestrated by a member of this encyclopedia apparently well known to the community for following a particular copy-and-paste, "get other editors banned" strategy, in the exact farcical manner that I experienced. Indeed with respect to Jytdog, who I had initially considered was a neutral party. Instead I by chance stumbled across a revealing comment left by User:Andy Dingley on the Sustainable energy talk page. "| Then feel free to simply go away(Jytdog). It is not all about you. Yet again you are taking another invented content dispute with an editor and turning it into another round of Jytdog's superhero wikicrimefighting show. You are not Batman. It is not all about you. Before long you will (inevitably so - we've all seen your behaviour before) move this to ANI with a variety of wild accusations, then probably create Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Roberttherambler, because harassment by fatuous SPI is another of your favourites."

If this ban instigated by jytdog, is not seen for what it is and overturned, I do not see a future with the project. As to remind you, there was never a case of 3R. Or edit warring. We always took it to the talk page, indeed that was the charge in essence, a distaste for - my writing replies on talk pages and then waiting for other editors to get back to me-. That however is not a bannable justification. Moreover some independent editors who looked at my edits both then in the initial ANI and now, also disagree with this unjustified ban. Despite, I might add, not being at home that weekend to have the opportunity to reply on the initial ANI. Which as you can imagine, was less than a "rewarding" surprise on returning home.

Indeed, with respect to why I got banned. I believe Guy you even thanked me for talking to Mark Z. Jacobson at my usual length, on his talk page, when he was engaging in a lawsuit and a BLP. So even on matters such as these, I do not change when I searched to try to find a WP:NEUTRAL wording acceptable to both a BLP and to readers. However I hope this is not a case of it serving your/the projects interests in that case yet in other cases "BAN"? I've picked up the unfortunately clear impression, that I am thanked for hashing things out on talk pages, but when not serving particular admin politics, I get banned from the topic. It is from this and other observations. That I have developed a deep sentiment of hypocrisy here. Indeed no one ever notified me as to the apparently well known MO of User:Jytdog in how they have, for years, gone around and created an apparent television series of a "variety of wild accusations", that they then "move this to ANI". So why exactly is this prolonged "round of Jytdog's superhero wikicrimefighting show" continuing?

Boundarylayer (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

The support for your topic ban was near-unanimous, and those who supported it are hardly just the usual suspects. If you want your ban overturned, the way to do so is to appeal it (probably at WP:AN) on the basis that it is no longer necessary to prevent disruption, not by simply violating it repeatedly. Your having violated it repeatedly essentially reduces your chances of having the ban overturned now to zero, I would guess. GoldenRing (talk) 16:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I am sorry you see yourself as a victim and also that you see me as some kind of kind of crazy person. I empathize with you being very passionate on this issue; I have some things I can get very fierce about, too. But you need to be aware that this is part of your character and self-manage it. You failed to do that on the abortion stuff and became disruptive, so the community took action to protect itself -- and you. I hope you gain some self-insight and are able to be resilient and find a way to stay. You do make many good edits in fields where you are not overly passionate. Jytdog (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Just wanted to add, that since we are now in the very intense run-up to the Ireland abortion referendum your internal pressure gauge has probably exploded. That must be very difficult. Jytdog (talk) 17:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@JzG: I cannot find where the original topic ban was recorded. Was it logged? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Boundarylayer: Please stop violating the topic ban. If you can edit non disruptively for 6 months, starting now, you might be able to appeal the ban then. One does not violate a topic ban and then seek to have it overturned when one is caught violating said topic ban.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I think it's time to propose an indefinite block of Boundarylayer. The link between their edits on the 36th Amendment referendum and the problematic edits on Death of Savita Halappanavar and related topics are so crystal-clear that they cannot be any good-faith misunderstanding. Boundarylayer's statement here makes it equally clear that they have no intention to abide by their restrictions or to respect other editors in any process. They clearly cannot edit collaboratively or constructively. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

They've been warned, they haven't edited on the topic since the warning. An indef at this point would be premature. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I think that an indef block is more than we need. Boundarylayer will kindly stop violating their TBAN before a block becomes needed.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

"Violated it Repeatedly"? Can you clarify where? Unless you're talking about something else. I made one stream of edits on the "8th amendment" article and I left it at that. Edits that I didn't consider to be really even under the remit of "Broadly construed?" Considering this farcical "ban" was over the articles PPROM and Savita Halappanavar, not anything political on Irish voting or a referendum but on medical evidence. No one got into a discussion once I made these recent amendment edits, I was busy writing, editing and getting the article Terufumi Sasaki through the creation process, in the last few days, if you actually care to look at what I was primarily doing instead of creating more of your quaint little fantasies about "pressure gauges"...Jytdog? In fact my last edit there, I left a talk page comment. Any polls conducted on just female voters? to build the article to reflect actual factual information.

Indeed in my last month of editing. If you really want to go "broadly construed". I've penned the entirety of the -Atomic bombings#Birth defect investigations a section, as broadly construed as "abortion" should be, is this medical information also a "violating" of my ban and should it be removed too? Moreover, I also added a small study in Chernobyl abortion requests recently. Though I take it, you all like that information. However the way you have all responded, it is clear that it is only when I add any factual information into what the political editor-User:Bastun, what they prefer to class as "broadly construed"? Only when I take it is anything got to do with jeopardizing their George Soros hero? That's the only difference in theme, they pretty well admit as much here this change all of a sudden, to enforce a ban down to doing "edits on the main article on the imminent Irish election". The main article? that's not abortion the actual "main article"? For someone with a topic ban on "abortion" then? The "main article is the election" that is how they view my ban. As a political tool. So only now then I find myself here at an Admin noticeboard over this farcical ban. Why now exactly? I think it pretty obvious what my "ban" genuinely is truly about and specificallly who and what it was always intended for. Which is anything Bastun doesn't like. A pretty cozy affair they have.

So exactly where do you want "broadly construed" to end? So I can know not to "violate" this farcical ban again? Can I have clarity? Indeed This User:Bastun seems to have a bit of a history of also hounding others editor, as like jytdog, claiming others are socks. It seems all preceived "opponents" are targeted and the truth a casualty. Two editors, 2 independent editors now, don't think this other user is a sock. Yet, look here they're indefinitely blocked, all thanks to user:Bastun. leftwinguy92.

Since my "ban" began. You will find that I have not edited the PROM article, after adding the 2017 Cochrane medical review(which is still there by the way, this is the farcical part that shows through. My last edit on the very article that would then follow with an onslaught of wild accusations and "ban", my last edit which suddenly I was banned without any opportunity to say a word before it was enshrined in wikilaw. The last edit I made for allegedly being "distruptive", not a single editor has removed nor challenged my last edit on the "direct broadly construed" topic, that I was allegedly distrupting? That is why this ban is a transparent farce.

Is anyone else being to see how transparent this is? Or is it really just me?

Boundarylayer (talk) 20:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

It appears to be pretty much you. I haven't seen so much blaming of others in quite a while.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

So you didn't also make a weird post on my talk page recently that completely misrepresented Savita's husband, Praveen? And you didn't make a series of edits regarding funding of Amnesty Ireland (who are campaigning for a Yes vote)? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Also - yes, leftwinguy93 was found to be a sock by a checkuser... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

That user is not a sock. You falsely accused them of being a sock of one account. The checkuser didn't find any evidence of that but presumedly found the same IP of some entirely different user. They're now blocked as per your direction however.

On Oct 20 you wrote "You might let me know when and where this RfC is taking place, so I and all the other people operating accounts for Mr Soros can turn up."

I never even knew who "Soros" was in Oct 2017, you were accusing me of being American and a whole load of wild things, I even asked in Oct 20, as you can read "who is Soros, and how are they relevant"? I think I know why now. The story broke in Dec 2017 that some fellow named George Soros was actually attempting to influence and pay for campaigns. After that news broke, you've both been censoring , who you actually admited, is your paymasters name, out of the Amnesty International Ireland page. In just the 1st page of edit history, three other editors have added his name and you 2 have consistently removed it. You've both been at the downplay game, the political spin-doctor game. The paid editing game. Your actions, "jokes" and even this ban...I know who you are and what this is about now.

Boundarylayer (talk) 11:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Editors may also be interested in this Conflict of Interest thread... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Interaction ban

Per the above and [76], I propose a one-way IBAN betwefen Boundarylayer and Bastun: Boundarylayer to be prohibited from interacting with or commenting on Bastun other than in the context of formal dispute resolution processes, including arbitration but not including noticeboatd threads. Guy (Help!) 12:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Guy (Help!) 12:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. I've blocked Boundarylayer for 48 hours for filing the SPI, which I've also deleted. @JzG: For the sake of procedural niceties, please clarify that you are proposing that a one-way I-ban be imposed against Boundarylayer for interactions with Bastun. I've also changed this to the usual non-numbered style rather than RfA style. Otherwise, it's difficult to leave standalone comments like this one. Hope you don't mind.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, I agree on all counts. Guy (Help!) 15:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support although I think an indef is coming here rather quickly. all aboard the noticeboat! Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Francis Schonken and the WHS infobox

Hi all. Please could someone take a look at the recent edits of Francis Schonken (talk · contribs). He is nominally implementing the outcome of Template_talk:Infobox_World_Heritage_Site/Archive_1#RfC:_revert_back_to_non-Wikidata_version? - however he is doing so in a way that repeatedly pings me to let me know my edits have been undone (more than 20 in the last 2 days, probably >100 over the last few months), and recently his edit summaries are using all sorts of different (and often invalid) reasons rather than just pointing to the RfC outcome. Attempts to discuss this with him aren't going anywhere, so I'd appreciate third-party input into this. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 13:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

The gall. I have spend many hours reverting the mess Mike Peel left behind after his ill thought out mass implementation of the Wikidata version of the WHS infobox, and Francis Schonken has continued this when I mostly gave up. Mike Peel on the other hand has done nothing to correct his errors and help in the cleanup, all he did was resurrect his Template:Infobox World Heritage Site/Wikidata version. When I corrected the use of the template in articles, I went through the history to find the last version before Mike Peel had changed the infobox, and took the old code. Francis Schonken does this by using a revert, which pings Mike Peel. Tough luck, as it is actually a revert + update that is being done. "He is nominally implementing the outcome" = he is actually implementing it, and undoing your damage. Your "attempts to discuss this" seem to consist of one post to his talk page[77], where he replied that he had replied at the template talk page[78]. Sure enough, Francis Schonken has replied there[79], and you have not answered this or made another comment on their user talk page.

A single comment on someone's talk page, then ignoring the reply that you get for nearly a month, and then coming here to complain about legitimate actions from another user undoing your mess, is basically asking "please, hand me a boomerang-shaped trout". Fram (talk) 13:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Note that Fram told me "I think we can handle this without more help from you", so I walked away from that template talk page, and would continue staying away aside from the repeated pings. There has also been related discussion between myself and Francis at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Suggestion:_WP:CHALLENGE in the last few days. Mike Peel (talk) 14:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

But you still felt the need to repeatedly revert Francis Schonken to reinsert your own RfC-deprecated version of the infobox[80][81][82]. Fram (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Note how none of those mentioned the RfC - see my initial comment here. Mike Peel (talk) 14:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

And if they don't mention the RfC, you are free to reinsert your own deprecated template you have walked away from? That same deprecated template where you have, as far as I know, not cleaned up one instance of it being used? Fram (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

You knew exactly why Francis made the change, and you knew the template was deprecated before you re-inserted it. Quit the disingenuity and respect community consensus -- or look to the community to form a new one. Don't edit disruptively. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Returning to the original point of the thread, are the notifications really necessary when making the edits? Richard Nevell (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Automatic. FS is reverting an edit and adjusting the content then saving. This will ping the editor who made the edit originally. You could hit edit and change it manually but if its only a minor change its easier and more efficient the way FS is doing it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Such notifications are opt-in, so not necessarily automatic. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to grab this opportunity to encourage everyone to go to Preferences > Notifications and uncheck Edit revert. Then you don't get those jarring red flags sending your blood pressure up. It's made my editing life far happier. Of course you still see any changes on your watchlist, but somehow that's a calmer way to experience them. EEng 19:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I second EEng's insight. I unchecked it a while ago and haven't been tempted to revert back. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Have my babies EEng. (this should teach me to actually look at preferences more often). Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

OK, I'm having Arbcom cut off your Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster. I have to credit Tryptofish with calling attention to this, and it's a shame there hasn't been more uptake project wide. Seriously, Tfish, what do you think about a Signpost article about it? I really think that every editor who unchecks the revert-notification "feature" represents a step along the path to universal Wiki-peace.

Another thing we could try -- and I really think this might be successful -- would be to lobby to make "unchecked" the default for new users. EEng 22:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks (but you don't have to have my babies). Everyone should read WP:RNO, which is what EEng is talking about. I honestly don't care much about the Signpost. I think the default setting has kept changing from on to off and back over time. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, that's good to know, and I've disabled that now. I thought that the notifications could also be avoided by removing the username from the edit summary. The use of random reasons in the edit summary seem to be decreasing, with more along the lines of "per <rfc link>", which is better - @Francis Schonken: please just stick with that edit summary from now on. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Happy to know there's a technical solution for the pinging. The edit summaries are not exclusively written for you, of course. Sometimes they are misunderstood. I try to make them correct, understandable, succinct, etc. That's content (not behaviour), so less suitable to be discussed on this noticeboard. As indicated above, a discussion about precisely this content was open before this was brought here (i.e., WP:RSN#Suggestion: WP:CHALLENGE). For clarity, that discussion is still active. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Mike Peel: during my work with the WHS infobox I encountered this edit to the pyramid infobox. Was that discussed before implementing? I mean, there's no obligation to discuss, but was it? --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Returning nationalities warrior?

I seem to remember this happening before, an IP changing nationalities or countries of origin without discussion or explanation. In the last couple of days I've seen 92.4.231.137 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 79.71.238.3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), and 92.3.102.128 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) doing this and it's ringing bells. DuncanHill (talk) 15:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• And has now admitted editing while blocked Sorry but my old account shingling is temporarily blocked if you want to unblock it I will then make useful edits.. DuncanHill (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• User:TU-nor noticed the same problem and has filed it at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Shingling334. Since the IPs are already blocked by User:Alex Shih there may not be anything more to do. EdJohnston (talk) 18:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try to remember the name for future reference! DuncanHill (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Shingling334 saying they'll make "useful edits" if we unblock them is pretty disingenuous, considering they've done nothing but vandalize for years. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:34, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

He's still at it 79.75.244.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) DuncanHill (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

99.53.112.186

99.53.112.186 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Would someone mind blocking this IP; they're dong things like this. And considering their extensive block log, they're clearly WP:NOTHERE. 59.98.99.230 (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Blocked. Pretty strange block log. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:08, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Neil: Hey—that's 99's original account! See its talk page. They've been on an IPv6 for some time now, but it's certainly a coincidence. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 09:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Assistance at Mediawiki and perhaps Commons

A troll is harassing me at Wikipedia, Commons, Mediawiki, etc. The original IP, 207.10.104.58, was globally locked by a steward, but now there's a new one, 65.155.17.196 — and there will no doubt always be new ones. I tried to get my mediawiki userpages, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Bishonen etc, protected, but obviously posted to the wrong help page at Mediawiki, and nothing happened. I don't know my way around there. Could somebody who does please try to get my pages semiprotected there? Preferably indefinitely. Also my Commons pages, unless they already are — I can't tell, but the attacks seem to have stopped there. Thank you. Bishonen | talk 18:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC).

User:Tegel seems to have globally blocked it. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, but that's not the point, Tony. After the first IP had been globally locked, another one turned up very soon. The world is full of open proxies, so I would appreciate having my pages protected. If it can be arranged. Anybody know a mediawiki admin, or is their system totally different? As I said, I tried to find an admin and failed. Bishonen | talk 19:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC).

I projected your user and user talk page for a month. In the future you can use mw:Project:Current issues or the #mediawiki channel on freenode to get the attention of an admin. Legoktm (talk) 19:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Legoktm. I'll try to remember. Having userpages at Mediawiki is purely a bother, I've no use for them, and they're nothing but vandal magnets. There is not the slightest risk that an IP or throwaway account would have a legitimate errand there, so would you consider protecting them indefinitely, please? Or a year, at least. Bishonen | talk 19:26, 24 May 2018 (UTC).

Done, though I could just delete your MediawikiWiki user page and let your Meta one would show instead, I could then salt the MW one, if you like, Bishonen? Courcelles (talk) 23:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Also semi'ed your Commons user page. Courcelles (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Courcelles: Thanks, that's great. Deleting and salting the mediawiki userpage would be even better, but the meta page that shows through will also need protection, won't it, and the meta talk? (Compare their histories; they've seen some action.) Also, my Commons talk? I wish I hadn't created so many pages; though I guess if I hadn't, there's still nothing to stop the vandals from creating them. Bishonen | talk 02:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC).

User:Livioandronico2013 evading indef block on Commons by continuing attacks on Wikipedia

• Livioandronico2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Commons contributions

Livioandronico is indef blocked on Commons (block discussion December 2017). This was due to long running incivility, personal attacks and dishonesty towards other users at the Featured Picture forum. His final edits there include this personal attack "do you have to lie to live".

• In December 2017 he asks another Commons user to nominate photos at FPC on his behalf.
• A few minutes later he posts to my user page "I repeat.....do you have to lie to live? I don't use NR. I hope you are a liar as I think ... otherwise there is something more serious!".
• In March 2018 I removed that post from my talk page.
• On 22 May 2018 Livioandronico restores his personal attack post to my talk page archive.
• On 23 May 2018 I reverted it.
• On 24 May 2018 Livioandronico restores his personal attack post to my talk page archive.

I have not, as far as I can recall, had any interaction with Livioandronico on Wikipedia. There is no reason for him to use Wikipedia to continue making personal attacks that got him the indef block on Commons. I personally avoid making multiple reverts, so would appreciate if an Admin remove his attack post from User talk:Colin/Archive 11 and protect the archive. Suggest user is also blocked on Wikipedia too. -- Colin°^Talk 21:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The edit was already reverted when i got there. I went ahead and fully protected it. Feel free to revert if that was wrong. I guess the next thing is to admonish Livioandronico2013. Perhaps an apology will obviate the need for formal sanctions.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Leaving a ping for @De728631 since they are the blocking admin on Commons. Suggest a one-week block here of Livioandronico2013 for personal attacks, based on the enwiki diffs above. Agree that IF he apologizes the block would not be necessary. The header of this report says the user is 'evading indef block on Commons' though that's not technically true since this is a different project. Still, if we are expecting different behavior here that would be optimistic. (Check out his comments in the Commons block discussion). EdJohnston (talk) 02:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

EdJohnston, I don't know what the technical term for it is, but the personal attacks left on my talk page are nothing to do with Wikipedia, but spill-over from his issues on Commons. They are using Wikipedia to attack me since they can't any longer do so on Commons. Evading their Commons block by attacking a Commons user on Wikipedia instead. Livioandronico doesn't edit very often, and has no current FP nominations here, so a week block is unlikely to be to of any effect. Wrt Wikipedia behaviour, I see that in January he edit warred over the lead photo he had uploaded and inserted to Empress Elisabeth of Austria. I haven't looked any further back than that. -- Colin°^Talk 07:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

A perfect case of WP:NOTHERE

History21st (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been nothing but trouble from the moment they started editing (their short editing history speaks for itself). I don't know whether they have difficulty understanding how Wikipedia works or whether they are doing it on purpose, but what is certain is that they're making near impossible to improve articles by constantly restoring original research and deleting reliably sourced content. The various warnings on their page were simply ignored. M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• I don't see that they're NOTHERE; what I do see is you leaving nothing but templated warnings and uninsightful boilerplate edit summaries. Drmies (talk) 00:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Drmies I left a perfectly justifiable warning on the 17th of this month, and another one today. What else am I supposed to do, let them remove sourced content? There is nothing wrong with the edit summaries, after all, I'm removing anything that shouldn't be there (either because it failed verification or it's OR). M.Bitton (talk) 00:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
    • You could talk to them. With sentences. If you want us to hand out a NOTHERE block you'll have to do better then go "just look at their history", and if you want us to take you seriously it would help if you'd done more than leave nothing but templated warnings and uninsightful boilerplate edit summaries--at the risk of repeating myself, of course. No need to ping me anymore. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'm always concerned by editors who edit-war about the ethnicity or nationality of historical figures, as History21st is doing at Abd al-Mu'min. I don't see this as WP:NOTHERE; rather a situation where a new editor needs to be advised to use the talk page to resolve content issues such as whether this person's birthplace was ruled by the Almoravids or the Hammadids at the time. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  • They were trying, on Talk:Abd al-Mu'min--but no one responded. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) Actually, History21st did post on that talk page multiple times. M.Bitton (talk · contribs) (and also Aṭlas (talk · contribs)) are the ones who need to be advised to reply there. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
      • @Power~enwiki: Out of interest, how would you deal with this? Would you restore it to what the RS say, "discuss it" or simply leave it? If a statement fails verification and you remove it (as you should), what kind of edit summary would you leave? M.Bitton (talk) 00:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

"I'm not sure I agree with this edit. I'm going to revert but if you have a source for it please come to the talk page and we can hash it out." See? It's not hard to be civil. You should try it some time. --Tarage (talk) 01:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Since Andalusia is in Spain, they're not contradictory, and the Samso (2007) reference describes him as "Andalusian". I'd be more concerned about "Residence: Caliphate" in the infobox, which makes little sense. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Frankly you're in the wrong here. You make an edit, it gets reverted, and then instead of going to the talk page you edit war. I'm not impressed. --Tarage (talk) 01:28, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah... looking at yours and their edits, at least they went to the talk page to TRY to reason with you. Meanwhile you decided the best way to solve this issue was to leave them warnings and then come here? Boomerang. If anyone isn't here to create an encyclopedia it's you. Close this down before you end up blocked and use the talk page instead of throwing a temper tantrum. --Tarage (talk) 01:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

ShaneFilaner

• ShaneFilaner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Dhriege (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please revoke email access for this indeffed sockmaster and his puppet Dhriege. The former is sending me (and who knows who else) email via Wikipedia claiming to be the latter, to have been rehabilitated, and to be deserving of being unblocked. I'm not sure why, as I had nothing to do with their having been blocked in the first place; so I have to assume they're spamming multiple admins and other editors who look to them like admins. General Ization ^Talk 03:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

P.S. - Both still have Talk page access and have notices on their Talk pages advising them how to properly request an unblock. General Ization ^Talk 03:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Revoked. Nyttend (talk) 11:20, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Confusion in an article: naturism is not nudism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Before all let me greeting you, this is because i recently read the article Naturism, this article is wrong, Naturism is not Nudism. Naturism is the doctrine that advocates the use of natural agents for the conservation of health and the treatment of diseases. The expression "naturism" has traditionally been used in this sense by the "naturist doctors" during the last century. For example, Dr. Jaime Scolnik, MD, the most prestigious Argentine naturopathic physician, graduated as a doctor in 1933 at the National University of Córdoba, Argentina, in a radio interview in 1990, on National Radio of Argentina, testifies to that in fifty years of medical practice he never prescribed a drug, and he treated patients from all over Argentina and neighboring countries. In the interview, he gives a complete overview of "naturism".Naturista2018 (talk) 06:12, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

References

The subject you're referring to is covered in Naturopathy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Content dispute. Go to the talk page of whatever article you're talking about. --Tarage (talk) 05:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Or better yet, give up your idea that the meaning of "naturism" preferred by you is the only possible correct use. A dictionary will help. - Nunh-huh 06:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dan56

Sorry this is a few days late, but Dan56 has been engaged in disruptive editing for quite a while now. First he opens a petty RfC over something we'd been arguing about and does so without even notifying me. Then we get into a needlessly lengthy discussion that went pretty much nowhere about a minor edit I made ([83]; I mistakenly thought it would go somewhere), and he does things like this:

• Accuses me of "misrepresenting publications/sources" ([84])
• Says things like this ([85]) when I say we should wait for more input because it isn't going anywhere
• Accuses me of not giving guidelines ([86]) when I clearly did ([87])
• Accuses me of having an agenda ([88])
• Claims not to understand what I'm saying when I've made my position perfectly clear and additionally implies that the whole thing makes no sense ([89], [90]; my position: [91], [92]; note the "0_0" at the end of his first comment)
• Opens a petty RfC about it and words it in an entirely non-neutral way
• Refuses to give up on it four months later and then claims there have been no attempts made to address his concerns ([93])
• Makes questionable assertions at best ([94])
• Says things that simply aren't true ([95]; see [96], [97], and [98])
• Plays dumb ([99], [100])
• Accuses me of saying things that aren't entirely relevant ([101])

Especially in light of his past behavior (see this and this), if this isn't an attempt to exhaust my patience and discourage other editors from engaging in discussion with him, I don't know what is. Someone please do something about it. Esszet (talk) 13:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)