Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I

2024 Requests for adminship review

Status as of 17:57 (UTC), Tuesday, 5 November 2024 ()

Note: this RfC was created with several already existing discussions that were initiated at the village pump; the section headings for proposals 1–4 have been edited for consistency. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 1: Impose community sanctions on RfA

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the requests for adminship process be placed under community sanctions (GS)? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• The structure of this GS area would be modeled after the contentious topics procedure. It covers all participation in the requests for adminship (RfA) process, broadly construed. It does not cover mainspace editing about the request for adminship process, nor does it cover discussion of the same.
• Uninvolved administrators and bureaucrats are held responsible for enforcing civility and all other behavioral policies and guidelines through all remedies available under the contentious topics model, as well as the ability to strike or remove comments (up to and include the vote itself) that are judged to be disruptive, corrosive, or otherwise in breach of conduct policy. They are not empowered under this topic area to institute "enforced BRD" or "consensus required" restrictions on a page, or to institute revert restrictions on a single editor. No part of this GS can be made to empower administrators or bureaucrats to enforce any policy they are not already tasked with upholding.
• Requests for enforcement should be placed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard (AE). An enforcement action can be overturned on appeal only with: a clear uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard (AN); a clear consensus of uninvolved admins at AE; or (in more extreme cases) a clear consensus of uninvolved bureaucrats at the bureaucrats' noticeboard (BN). Standards of review for an appeal to uninvolved editors or administrators are listed here, and the same for uninvolved bureaucrats are listed here.
• Wikipedia:General sanctions/Requests for adminship is created as the log of enforcement actions and list of procedures. The appropriate awareness and sanction templates can also be created.

Extended content

Survey (proposal 1) Support: Community sanctions are intended for topic areas where standard enforcement procedures are not enough to maintain decorum on the project, and, well, RfA and its chronic hostility problem certainly meet that definition. Not once, but twice in the past month or so have we had a situation where the bureaucrats failed to act on serious and baseless aspersions cast about a candidate in front of hundreds of other editors. This, despite the fact that as far back as WP:RFA2015 (nine years ago!), we as a community came to the conclusion that incivility and battleground behavior at RfA is out of control and tasked the bureaucrats with improving it. But unfortunately, bureaucrat enforcement of civility norms has been scattershot and ineffective, and nearly all bureaucrats avoid the task entirely. We tried to fix this again in 2021, but no substantive changes were made. Thanks to a systematic failure of enforcement, RfA remains toxic and discouraging. This is a chance to do real good for future candidates who don't want to get hazed and future !voters who don't want to get badgered. There is not going to be a perfect solution to all of RfA that waltzes down the aisle in a month or two if we procrastinate on this problem again – it's going to be another three to six years before we get another opportunity, and in the meantime, another crop of qualified candidates will be beaten down, discouraged, or scared off by the RfA process, not to mention the drama and time sink for RfA participants. It is time to fix what we all have already agreed, many times, is broken. I support, and implore the community to do the same. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose. I'm sympathetic to the intent here, I really am. But I think this proposal will make things worse instead of better. Sometimes editors take controversial positions in RfA discussions. Not too long ago, I did, in fact, and one admin left a message at my user talk, calling my comment "shitty". It would be too easy to end up blocking someone for not having a rationale that was "good enough". We already allow administrators to enact sanctions for violations of the WP:CIVIL policy, and the fact that there have been a few recent examples when no admin elected to do so does not mean that we need to enact a new category of community sanctions. Wikipedia just isn't very good at dealing with civility, unless it's very black-and-white. RfA is no more toxic than ANI (yeah, that's a ridiculously low bar!), so successful RfA candidates will just have to learn to deal with it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC) @Tryptofish: If civility is something the admins are already empowered to enforce, and the assertion is that admins being empowered to enforce civility would have them tend to abuse that power, why isn't that a trend we see already at RfA? The opposite is true: admins aren't using their current ability to enforce civility enough, maybe in part because of all the process questions around it. It's not the case that GS and CTOP have a reputation for admins who go around blocking people simply for having comments that aren't good enough, and I don't think RfA would be an exception to that – I think admins would be more cautious at RfA than they would be at ARBPIA or another similarly contentious topic area. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC) I didn't mean to imply that I thought that admins would intentionally engage in any sort of abuse of the admin policy. Sorry if it sounded like I did. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose For most editors, that designation means that it's some type of a dangerous minefield and to not edit there. Not good to turn RFA into such. Having 1 or 2 outlandish posts isn't the thing that makes RFA something that most good potential admins don't want to go through. RFA needs some other changes. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC) that designation means that it's some type of a dangerous minefield and to not edit there As I understand it, for a very, very long time the community has considered RfA to be a toxic and broken system. I know several candidates who have described the process as one of the most stressful things in their life, in no small part because the toxicity of some RfA participants. The only thing we as a community haven't been able to agree upon is how to reform it and address these issues. RfA is already a dangerous minefield, the only difference in this proposal is that maybe we'd acknowledge that in a way that would see some improvement in the process' moderation (or lack thereof). Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose per wot Tryptofish and North800 just said. I just don't think this particular enforcement style is going to be compatible with the way RFAs work. Something is required, but GS is probably not it. Sohom (talk) 21:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose - This proposal is certainly well-intentioned, but it ultimately will just add more pointless bureaucracy. Honestly, all we need is for the bureaucrats to deal with the occasional bullshit accusation. Alternatively, an uninvolved administrator should be allowed to if the bureaucrats won't. Cheers! Reaper Eternal (talk) 21:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Support. If this were an encyclopedic subject, it would have been designated a CTOP eons ago. Leeky perfectly explains why this might be beneficial, so I am going to take a look at the three reasons (that I can think of, at least) one might oppose this. First, one might argue that there is no problem at RfA. I'm not going to say anything other than, really? Second, one might say there is a problem but GS won't solve it. At the very least, I think we should try this. We will never know if we don't try. But I would also argue that CTOP usually works to ease the editing environment. I think one of the strongest endorsement of CTOP that I can give is to mention we haven't needed AP3 even with the Trump era of US politics. The final one I can think of is that it is undemocratic: we shouldn't give admins the ability to deny people the right to !vote for/against a candidate. First, WP:NOTDEMO. Second, we choose admins for their good judgement: I don't think they will abuse GS to block a !voter for having The Wrong Opinion. Even if one did, that is not the real problem; the real problem is that such a person is an admin. But the purpose of RfA is to produce suitable admins to help Wikipedia function, not to allow the community to judge a contributor. If you can't respectfully disagree about abortion, you get tbanned, no matter your stance on the topic. If you can't respectfully disagree about climate change, you get tbanned, no matter your stance on the topic. And so on. It is perfectly possible to oppose a candidate without attacking them. If you can't do so, you shouldn't be allowed to participate. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose I'm sure this is well-intentioned, but it will probably do more harm than good. I do not believe RfA is actually as bad as it used to be, nor do I think the current problems are beyond the capacity of our admins to handle in a normal fashion. In practice, enacting GS would make it less safe to oppose a popular candidate, and I don't think that would be a good thing. I've seen a number of proposed solutions for RfA over the years, and I have come to the conclusion that RfA, to the extent that it is broken, is simply unfixable. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC) I don't know if I feel strongly enough about this to oppose/support, but I can't really see this being helpful, and I think it's more likely to have negative unintended consequences. The problem isn't that no one can enforce civility on RFAs; the problem is that the rules we already have aren't being enforced to the degree that some (most?) people would like. That problem can easily continue under GS. Meanwhile, it seems pretty likely to me that with GS involved fewer people would feel comfortable opposing, whether there's any real risk there or not. -- asilvering (talk) 22:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose Like others, I believe this proposal was made in good faith. I think the simpler solution is that when these unfounded Oppose !voters or serial opposers comment, we just ignore them or follow WP:TYFYV. RfA is way less toxic than it used to be, and bad opposers are much less common than in the "too many admins"/"self nominations are prima facie evidence of power hunger" days. And yet, each bad opposer gets way more of a reaction than they used to. The better way is to trust Crats to strike or discount the !vote, which is the job we entrust them with. Having one or two opposers with dumb reasons isn't going to tank an RfA. The WordsmithTalk to me 23:11, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Support This strikes me as a good idea. For a very long time, the community as considered RfA to be a toxic and broken process. I know several candidates who have described the process as one of the most stressful things to go through in their life. As someone who primarily edits in one of our CTOP areas, I know from experience that the CTOP procedures far from perfect. However they do work in addressing some of the baseline problematic issues that frequently come up when writing content about controversial topics. Now this isn't going to fix all of RfA's problems, at the end of the day people are still going to be people, but it will help prevent some of the baseline problems that contribute to RfA toxicity. In recent months, there have been at least three RfAs that I'm aware of where the crats have been asked to intervene in relation to problematic contributions from editors. Leeky mentions two of these in her !vote, the other I'm aware of was at Clovermoss' Rfa (BN discussion). I'm sure if I went looking, I could find other recent examples of this. Now I understand the catch-22 situation the crats find themselves in when getting requests like this. If they start taking moderation actions when requested, some of them feel as they would start being perceived as non-neutral at close time or cratchat. And there is an argument that maybe if we had more crats (we currently have only 19), some of them might feel more free to take clerking actions where necessary. However this proposal sidesteps that issue, by empowering non-crat admins to act in the exact situations that the crats are currently hesitant to act upon. To the folks who are saying that this would make it, as Lepricavark said less safe to oppose a popular candidate, I respectfully disagree. If you want to oppose a popular candidate, you will still be able to oppose a popular candidate. If you have a good faith reason to oppose a candidate, and if you can evidence that and present it in a way that complies with the relevant conduct policies, I really don't think you have anything to worry about. If you feel a candidate is fundamentally unfit to be an admin, you will still be able to put forward a case to try and convince the community of this. What you won't be able to do however is make contributions that would almost instantly be reverted or redacted in any other venue, or be able to flagrantly contravene our civility policy and our policy against personal attacks. So yes, I fully support this proposal, and I would strongly urge other editors to do the same. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose as adding bureaucracy to something that can already be dealt with by reverting trolling, personal attacks or excessive rudeness. RFA is the place to be critical of a candidate, and extra rules should not be inhibiting that. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose I'm all for being nice but a candidate should be able to tolerate a couple of trolls. The problem is the attention they get and GS would just encourage more civil off-topic bickering. Johnuniq (talk) 23:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose. The standard conduct enforcement procedures don't seem to be inadequate here, rather they just aren't used as much as they could/should be. RfA is a regular projectspace page, and the comments made there should be held to the same standard as they would on any projectspace page; personal attacks should not be tolerated. However, the lack of enforcement is not a failing of it, and I'd prefer we try to be more proactive with standard enforcement before adding bureaucracy. Giraffer (talk) 00:23, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose - More bureaucratic creep. Carrite (talk) 02:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose. Administrators and bureaucrats (in their admin capacity) already have the ability to block someone if they are being particularly uncivil. Adding these specific proposed general sanctions doesn't enable admins to do anything new; it merely adds a level of bureaucratic friction should any block be challenged. But if the problem is that people aren't doing anything here, then merely adding more bureaucratic friction isn't a solution—we should try actually using our existing policies and guidelines before we declare that we need something extraordinary here. And if nobody is willing to enforce our ordinary policies and guidelines, then we should elect someone who will. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:31, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose If I'm understanding the proposal correctly, it would enable any individual administrator to unilaterally decide that someone should be indefinitely topic bannned from participating in all future RfAs. I don't like that – it's overreaching and if that kind of outcome is needed, it should result from a community discussion. DanCherek (talk) 02:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Discussion (proposal 1) wrt [i]t does not cover mainspace editing about the request for adminship process – is RfA a topic that should even be discussed in mainspace in the first place? M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 20:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Well, I will say that the mainspace page Wikipedia administrators#Requests for adminship currently exists and covers exactly what it says on the tin. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Whilst I agree that RfA needs more guidance as to what can and can't be done - is GS the way to go? For instance, how would we notify users such sanctions are in place? Presumably this wouldn't include editing restrictions like on most other GS pages (such as 30/500). Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC) @Lee Vilenski: GSes that do 30/500 automatically often aren't full discretionary sanctions procedures like WP:GS/UYGHUR or this one. For this, no, I don't think we'd have any kind of need for an automatic 30/500. As to notification, that's something we take care of without much problem for other GSes and CTOPs – maybe we'd even consider an editnotice warning or other hatnote sufficient. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC) To clarify, general sanctions is an umbrella term for ... sanctions that apply to all editors working in a particular topic area. Examples include a one-revert rule, an extended-confirmed restriction, community authorization for discretionary sanctions, and arbitration committee designation of contentious topics. If I understand your proposal correctly, you're proposing a new set of rules for Wikipedia:Requests for adminship and its talk page (and possibly some other associated pages). This would a be new restriction that falls in the category of general sanctions. isaacl (talk) 23:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC) If the proposed set of rules explicitly disallows admins from enacting any remedies that they aren't already empowered to enact via existing policy and guidelines, then I think the comparison to contentious topics isn't quite apt. It's true that the contentious topics process allows admins to enact a remedy which cannot be reversed until there is a consensus to do so, which is similar to this proposal. However it also provides admins with a standard set of additional remedies. I suggest leaving out the part about modelling the proposed process after contentious topics. isaacl (talk) 23:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Is this yet another knee-jerk reaction to a recent thing? I see no discussion on long-term behavioral problems plainly evident in most RFAs. It's been enough to make regular RFA participation not worth my time. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 07:06, 15 February 2024 (UTC) I must have erred when I put the most recent examples up top, because no, this is about the systemic problem, not a collection of isolated incidents, RadioKAOS. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC) I've thought about this some more, and I thought of something that I would have added to my comment in the now-closed discussion, so I'll say it here, instead. The discussions here grow out of a perception that RfA is an unpleasant process that discourages good candidates from coming forward. I share that perception, and I agree that it's a problem that would be good to solve. But the problem isn't with plainly inappropriate reasons for opposes, or personal attacks. Those things don't sink RfAs that should have been successful. They get refuted, or ignored, and the process works, albeit with a lot of users justifiably rolling their eyes at the refuted or inconsequential stuff. The problem, fundamentally, isn't even badgering of opposes or inappropriate questions to candidates, even though those things really are problems. None of these things are likely to discourage a qualified candidate from coming forward. No, the problem is that little things, like a bad day or a one-off mistake, get blown up out of proportion. A strong candidate is found to have, just once or twice, posted something that was a bad judgment call, and all of a sudden, there is a flood of "Oppose, per the problem cited by [name]." A lot of good editors know perfectly well, that if they became candidates, this would happen to them, and decide that it wouldn't be worth the trouble. That, not any of the other things, is the real reason good candidates decide not to have an RfA. And none of the proposals being discussed would fix that problem. You cannot sanction an editor for opposing, with a diff or two that indicates what that editor thinks, in all sincerity, is a problem. And you cannot sanction other editors for agreeing with it. But that's the thing that makes RfA an unpleasant place. If editors really want to fix that, there's no easy fix, but the best way to start is to make a practice of thinking carefully before registering a pile-on oppose, and to explain support reasons clearly, including where appropriate, why an oppose does not demonstrate unsuitability. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:23, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Having a two-phase approach with a discussion phase and an anonymous voting phase (such as the proposal made during the 2021 review of the RfA process) would help mitigate the morale-draining effect that opposing votes can have on candidates. The rationales would still get discussed, but they wouldn't get repeated by each person opposing (which currently can lead to multiple threads about the same concern). isaacl (talk) 18:39, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 2: Add a reminder of civility norms at RfA

This is not a formal change in rules (and I do not see it as mutually exclusive with the above), but an encouragement for admins to use the tools available to them. Add something like this to WP:RFA (i.e. literally add it to the RfA page; wordsmithing more than welcome):

Editors are reminded that the policies on civility and personal attacks apply at RfA. Editors may not make allegations of improper conduct without evidence.

Uninvolved administrators and bureaucrats are encouraged to enforce conduct policies and guidelines, including—when necessary—with blocks.

Support (proposal 2)

1. Support as proposer. If we are not ready for GS, I think we should have a formal acknowledgement (importantly, one placed there by community consensus) that editors should be respectful, and disagree without being disagreeable. I will also note that if an admin uses the tools to silence civil comments that would be egregious WP:TOOLMISUSE; I have much more confidence in our ability to deal with tool abuse than with civility RfA. (Note that this is intended to apply equally to all participants, including opposers as well as those who badger opposers.) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:19, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. This strikes me as a good idea. While a lot of the stress of RfA is caused by things other than outright incivility, a simple encouragement is unlikely to hurt. Eluchil404 (talk) 02:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. The opposes above suggesting that we shouldn't discourage people from leaving personal attacks are disappointing. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 06:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support: I would've thought this would be common sense, but apparently people need to be reminded. — Callitropsis🌲[talk · contribs] 07:02, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support :) I think that, one way or another, what admins and 'crats have lacked is a clear mandate. This seems like a good first step towards a more healthy community. (Maybe another good first step would be disabusing ourself of the notion that a little trolling is good for the soul. A world in which no troll ever enters Wikipedia again is not a world where everyone on it grows soft, there's a real world too and people learn how to deal with hardship.) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:19, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
6. In light of the community's failure to do anything about the latter two pointy opposes even though it was blindingly obvious that they were pointy, perhaps this is actually a good idea. Therefore, I change my position to support. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support as plain common sense. Those saying "but but but but trolling an RfA lets us show how a candidate reacts!" miss the point that it also discourages candidates from standing in the first place. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Support as a reminder of our existing conventions and rules rather than extra bureaucracy. RfA is not a welcoming environment, and I'm sure it deters many potential candidates who would make good admins. Certes (talk) 11:44, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Support - The fact that we have to even vote on this and that it's not unanimous really is quite telling of how differently RfA is viewed across Wikipedia. But we need more civility, please. Not less. Particularly at a venue such as RfA. Believe it or not, we'd still like to encourage people to become admins. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Support - Proven as necessary, even if it is redundant. Certes explains it well. — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. 13:48, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Moral support, but... I think we all know that we could already be doing this, admin or not. The problem with 'moderating' Wikipedia, compared to other places, is is that everything is out in the open and that everyone is on a level footing. Elsewhere, a mod sees a problematic comment and they remove it. Maybe the author can appeal, but it's going to be handled by other mods, and there certainly won't be a peanut gallery. If you remove a comment at RfA (or anywhere really), the author is very likely to publicly kick up a fuss, and that fuss is going to attract others to weigh in on both sides. There's a not-insigificant chance that, even if you're really sure that the comment was out of line, it's going to escalate to the point where you end up at ANI or ArbCom or wherever. I think admins are more aware of this than most, which is why you don't see us intervening unless the conduct is very obviously very bad. Encouragement or not. – Joe (talk) 14:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Support. This issue is not merely something that happened recently. Repeated violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL in RFAs have been problematic for a while - off the top of my head, I can name at least three users who were specifically topic banned from RFA in the last several years due to civility issues. If someone has a legitimate reason to oppose an RFA, there is no reason why it cannot be done civilly. Epicgenius (talk) 15:04, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Support I'm ok with most of this. I don't think we need Editors may not make allegations of improper conduct without evidence. I can only see people using this to stop people from having votes and asking for evidence. Otherwise, it's a big win to explicitly remind people to be nice at RfA. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Support There's no way to prove it would help, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. Would it make sense to add something about how the 'crats are empowered to clerk? Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 17:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Support I will continue to support any little steps that will improve RFA until we get an RFA that isn't broken. If there's sufficiently detailed bigger steps, I will happily support them too. The community both needs a reminder of our civility policies and stronger enforcement of them in RFAs. Soni (talk) 06:01, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Support (and yes, I know). A reminder never hurt. Plenty to gain (editors like Homeostasis07 will in future know they will be blocked for trolling before in advance, and admins will be reminded that their normal tools can still be used alongside any specific crat actions that may also be taken, and crats will hopefully be encouraged to keep a gimlet eye on proceedings safe in the knowledge that they have codified backing), and nothing to lose, except some of the toxicity which is an inevitable by-product of treating RfA where NPA, ASPERSIONs, etc, does not run (as a worrying number of admins and even crats seem to believe). ——Serial 19:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Support RfA should at least have the same standards of user conduct as any other area of Wikipedia (not that our standards are that high). Maybe with an addition that explicitly states that votes that are aspersions/personal attacks can be struck/removed, since I think the often the issue is people being reluctant to enforce policies against oppose voters since they don't want to impugn people's "right to suffrage". Galobtter (talk) 06:52, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Weak Support If there are admins and crats who feel as though they will be willing to enforce CIV and NPA, then this is a good idea. I'd consider it a pre-warning that editors should not make the type of comments they cannot make anywhere else on the project without sanction or summary removal. However if there aren't admins or crats willing to enforce those policies, then at best this is a fig-leaf sign that some can point to when telling others that their contributions are unacceptable per policy, and at worst this will just be some boilerplate text that editors ignore while violating the relevant conduct policies. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    Support: however, I'd just want Editors are reminded that the policies on civility and personal attacks apply at RfA.

    Uninvolved administrators and bureaucrats are encouraged to enforce conduct policies and guidelines, including—when necessary—with blocks. We don't need to specifically state what civility means, not do I think we should be making claims about people even with evidence. Those claims can be gamed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

    @Lee Vilenski: it appears you !voted twice :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 17:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

19. Support in principle: the wording should be workshopped, and bureaucrats should be encouraged to enforce this more aggressively. Z1720 (talk) 14:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Support This shouldn't be necessary, but it can't hurt. In my RfA, the problem wasn't specific uncivil comments, but instead it being difficult to watch tens of people each bringing all of your faults to bear, even if they do it reasonably civilly. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Support, because I don't see how it can hurt. My assessment of the problem we're trying to solve here, insofar as it is a problem, is there there's a handful of !voters falling somewhere on the spectrum of contrarian to troll; and another lot of participants who get worked up about these !voters and are just as nasty, or nastier, in response. We can, and should, do more to curb the worst of this behavior with the tools we already have: the rest of it, we need to learn to live with or ignore. Enforcing WP:ASPERSIONS would help, but that's not easy to do on a page that's inherently about discussing another editor. You cannot legislate against contrarianism, much as we would all like to. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Strong support. We ALL need reminders on civility and how to conduct ourselves with proper decorum on Wikipedia every now and then. In my opinion, this can only help, and all voters--myself included--would be prompted to "check" themselves before casting a vote or asking a question/posting a comment that may come off as caustic. I am with WaltClipper - we need to be encouraging our best editors to seek the mop and view RfA as a process of POSITIVE constructive criticism. Breaking down candidates to the point of withdrawal, regret, a Wikibreak, or any combination thereof is not helpful to this project. — That Coptic Guy^{ping me!} (talk) (contribs) 02:22, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Support, as merely a reminder of the rules, not a new rule. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 03:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Support my car reminds me to put my seat belt on when I start it. I don't see that as a restriction on my choice of direction. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 07:28, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Support: negative feedback at RfA should be actionable, constructive criticism. No candidate has signed up to be personally attacked, threatened, harassed, insulted, embarrassed or publicly shamed. They have signed up to gain some technical and procedural rights that they can use to improve an online encyclopedia. Any admin has the ability to sanction an editor for violating civility norms, yet enforcement is exceedingly rare in RfA. This is a significant factor in the dearth of RfAs that cause chronic shortage in many areas that require admin intervention. — Bilorv (talk) 21:38, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Conditional support if there are people actually willing to enforce this. —Kusma (talk) 11:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
27. Support - it never hurts to remind people of the need for basic civility. WaggersTALK 15:54, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
28. Support – There have been cases of personal attacks and civility in previous RfAs, and introducing this new proposal will reduce the likehood of personal attacks or incivility happening in future RfAs. Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 08:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
29. Support I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. I'm persuaded by the discussion that this measure may help. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
30. Support The process has a reputation for being unpleasant. I realize that we already have civility rules, but we need something more, and the proposed options that I have seen are this versus status quo. I prefer this. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
31. Support. RFA is not a PURGE. You can't forsake all the other values and guidelines of Wikipedia discussions during RfA period. The norms that apply to every other discussions must be enforced and followed here also, if not more. RfAs have turned into a battleground now with some recent ones being one of the most toxic discussions ever. Just because the editor had a bad day once and have acted irrationally once does not guarantee they can't be a great admin. Just because you had an argument or a disagreement with the editor in the past doesn't mean they can me trusted with the mop. We have entertained vandals and socks as admins (like Lourdes) and the toxicity and uncivil discussions are upto no good. Deserving editors will make it nonetheless and being civil won't hurt anyone. Also, per Richie333...it's just damn plain common sense. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 03:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
32. Support Absolutely reasonable, and isn't even a change rather than just reminding basic policies that are too often forgotten. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 03:37, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
33. Support - Why dismiss the needed reminder? Civility is expected, especially from everyone of this project. Of course, there are WP:IAR and WP:NOTBURO, enforcing those policies just to ignore the longstanding civility policy requires proof that civiilty policy itself is detrimental to improving this project. Unfortunately, I've yet to see how the policy harms the project. George Ho (talk) 07:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
34. Support: a low-cost way of hopefully steering the culture in the right direction. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
35. Support, basic guidelines are too often forgotten at RfA Yoblyblob (Talk) :) 18:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
36. Support - reminding people to behave is pretty much always warranted. Especially so at RFA. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
37. Weak support WP civility is often basically coaching on how not to get in trouble as you stick the knife in someone's back, or something to weaponize to stick the knife. So I don't think that this will be very useful. North8000 (talk) 22:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
38. Support, though I don't think it'll accomplish a great deal. Stifle (talk) 10:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
39. Support, even though saying this shouldn't be necessary. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:06, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
40. Support We need to keep it civil --rogerd (talk) 19:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
41. Support A bit of a reminded to admins to enforce civility can't hurt, even though I believe enforcement with blocks risks fanning the flames. I do note that WP:RfA is already quite a wall of text. We may want to rethink more of the information given there. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 2)

1. Oppose I want to know (a) if someone has some dirt; and (b) how the candidate reacts to trolling. Re (a): obviously any aspersions would be closely examined and dealt with appropriately if unsubstantiated. We can't put a header on every noticeboard with this information. Johnuniq (talk) 03:04, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   With all due respect, are you really arguing that trolling is a good thing at RfA because we can see how the candidate reacts? HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 05:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   I haven't been following the details of recent RfAs but I have looked and the trolling I've seen has been very minor. The current fuss is not trolling in the sense of something outrageous: it's one oppose that might be misguided but does not warrant all the discussion IMHO. Are there any links showing trolling that really should be removed but hasn't been? Johnuniq (talk) 06:12, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   Off the top of my head, since December we have one RfA where more than 50 revisions had to be suppressed because it took 48 hours for a wildly inappropriate comment to be removed and one neutral which literally cited the candidate's religion as a reason they would be uncomfortable if the candidate got the mop (see also Q6 and Q7 by the same editor). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 12:53, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose Johnuniq makes a good point. Until the FRA vote is private we will probably have this handwringing. Lightburst (talk) 04:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   Oppose a lot of these concerns could be alleviated if someone would just p-block Lightburst from the RfA. We don't need to make community-wide statements in response to poor behavior from one editor (I realize there were two editors misbehaving at the current RfA, but the one !vote was already struck as a crat action, so evidently our current approach is not completely broken). LEPRICAVARK (talk) 07:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   Plenty of other editors have recently engaged in problematic conduct at RfA. It's a systemic issue and admins and 'crats are way too reluctant to enforce community norms at RfA in my opinion. I'm not optimistic that this notice will solve all of RfA's problems, but hopefully it'll serve as a reminder to everyone that personal attacks and aspersions are just as unacceptable there as they are everywhere else and should be met with appropriate warnings or sanctions. — Callitropsis🌲[talk · contribs] 07:19, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Lepricavark: it is true that if you block the minority voters or those who defend them, you can get a 100% result. In my experience, whoever dares to oppose the majority gets in trouble at RFA. The process is broken because it is public. Imagine going to the polls in the US, and they say who are you voting for? You tell them and they ask why? Now imagine having to declare your reasons to everyone in the polling center. And if they disagree with your reasons they strike your vote. If part of the Homeostasis07 rationale was an aspersion, strike it [[WP:RPA]]. But that is not what happened, first they poked at it, then they became outraged. Then they moved the entire rationale to the talk page. Then someone erased the vote entirely. I am just trying to stick up for the minority even though I voted with the majority. I guess FRAM struck my vote as well and that did not surprise me. Lightburst (talk) 14:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   If you are going to ping me, then please have the courtesy to write something that it is worth my time to read. No, the process is not broken because it is public. The process is broken because of editors, such as yourself in this and other instances, who provoke needless disruption and drama instead of evaluating the candidate in a policy-compliant manner. To address one of your red herrings, this is not about getting a 100% result. The first oppose was removed because, despite your seeming wishes to the contrary, RfA is not a safe haven for innuendos against the candidate. Your !vote should be struck because it is admittedly irrelevant to the candidate. If someone were to subsequently draft a relevant oppose that did not violate basic policies, it should and would be allowed to stand. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Oppose I know we're all trying to make RfA better, and I'm not for personal attacks. I'm just worried this will make it harder to oppose candidates who need to be opposed, since the "casting aspersions" line seems like it could cause problems if someone opposes an RfA without presenting evidence, and as Joe Roe notes, who is the arbiter here? For instance is opposing someone on religious grounds a personal attack or aspersions, or does it just say a lot about the person opposing? I think a better idea might be for there to be explicit moderators for RfAs instead of putting up a notice of something we all aspire to, but is in a situation where it's difficult to enforce. SportingFlyer T·C 14:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'm really not seeing the connection between putting this notice and make it harder to oppose candidates who need to be opposed. If someone says I had off-wiki encounters with the user that do not make me believe they should be an admin or Some off-wiki observations that I cannot show have made me lost my trust in this candidate they would not be casting aspersions. People would definitely be curious at what it is, but if you can't provide any proof or evidence for your claim, you can't really specify anything other than how it made you feel without making an unsubstantiated claim.

   So my question is, if my understanding of what it means to cast aspersions is correct, in what way do we benefit from giving consideration to people making unsubstantiated claims where no evidence were sent to anyone? 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 14:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   Doesn't your question confirm my concern, though? If I say something like "I've interacted with RfA candidate in the past and over the course of numerous encounters don't feel they have the capacity to be an administrator," is that a validly held opinion/oppose, is that an aspersion, is that an unsubstantiated claim that should be disregarded? I think it's the former, but don't want it to be confused with an aspersion. SportingFlyer T·C 20:39, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Oppose. As I mentioned in my oppose comment in the now-withdrawn proposal, I got a lot of heat for a comment I made in a fairly recent RfA. I put myself at neutral, and based it on something that I said I did not feel comfortable posting in public. I also said that I did not think my reasons were solid enough for me to oppose, which is why I chose to be neutral. The problem I have with this new proposal is that it seems to say that, without evidence, what I did would have been block-worthy. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:06, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
   • Please see also my comment in #Discussion (proposal 1), above. This proposal targets conduct that isn't really the problem that prevents good candidates from applying. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose As long as RFA comments are coupled with voting, I will have to oppose anything that could be used as a restriction on how people vote. Anyone should be able to vote how they want for any reason bar outright trolling. Now if voting and comments became uncoupled (see #Anonymous voting) and not everyone was forced to give a rationale, it would be a good idea. Pinguinn 🐧 19:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Strong oppose with apologies to HouseBlaster because I'd love to believe this would make a difference. One way it won't is regarding disruptive editors because as we've seen recently, they will never back down, not one inch, from their assertion that their behavior is completely fine, they only went on the attack with great reluctance because of something someone else did, or whatever.
   If this has a positive effect, it'll be because it motivated editors who can actually enforce these policies to finally end their infuriatingly hands-off approach to disruption at RFA. And that won't happen, either. On the most recent request for adminship's talk page, two bureaucrats, User:Primefac and User:28bytes, said that they wouldn't remove two oppose votes that were blatant policy violations from the final account because the RFA was going to easily pass and besides, the community can rest assured that 'crats don't take such votes into account. That, to me, is incredible: two bureaucrats are on the record saying they flat-out won't enforce policy at RFA. (Everybody knows they didn't affect the vote! Everybody knows you wouldn't take them seriously! Toss them anyways!) No administrator or bureaucrat needs to be told that they're "encouraged to enforce conduct policies and guidelines, including—when necessary—with blocks." They know. The problem is that they still almost never enforce anything. (Change the word "encouraged" to "required" and I'd switch to strongest support possible.) City of Silver 00:01, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I think the reason that admins and bureaucrats are reluctant to enforce the rules at RfA is the fact that it feels like election interference. The reason I think we need a note like this is to make it clear that the community does not see enforcing behavioral policies/guidelines as election interference. (In other words, I think that it will have a positive effect because it motivated editors who can actually enforce these policies to finally end their infuriatingly hands-off approach to disruption at RFA.) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   Yeah, the "election interference" angle is important here. And this becomes especially worse since most admins who see policy-violating behaviour have probably already voted in the RfA and so are involved. Galobtter (talk) 00:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   You both might be right but then the reasons those two 'crats gave for sitting on their hands would be flat-out lies, wouldn't they? And what kind of enforcement can we expect from people who allow policy-violating disruption to stand because doing something about it means they'll get called out by the rulebreakers? City of Silver 04:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I don't see how those 'crats were lying: it didn't affect the outcome, and had it gone to a 'crat chat they would have been discarded. And I don't think admins are concerned about being called out by rulebreakers (if they were, vandals would never get blocked). I think admins are concerned they will be called out by "the community" for "interfering" with an "election". I see this as the community telling admins that enforcing behavioral guidelines will not be seen as interfering with an election. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 05:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   @HouseBlaster: No, no. From the parenthetical in my message: "Everybody knows they didn't affect the vote! Everybody knows you wouldn't take them seriously!" I believe the lies came when those 'crats claimed these facts were why they wouldn't do anything when the real reason was that they were afraid of being accused of election interference. City of Silver 02:44, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   If you're going to attempt to throw me under a bus, at least avoid grossly misrepresenting what I said (in this discussion for reference). The two !votes in question were POINTY, but were not "blatant policy violations", and as such did not require striking. Primefac (talk) 07:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   With all due respect to you, as you do do the thankless task of clerking, Primefac – how does one square a vote being an example of "disrupting Wikipedia (to make a point)" and not a violation of policy? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   WP:POINT and WP:DE are behavioural guidelines, not policies, so mischaracterising my statement in such a hyperbolic manner is why I felt compelled to comment. Primefac (talk) 10:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Primefac: Regarding "The two !votes in question were POINTY, but were not "blatant policy violations", may I say? The two votes in question were lies. No gray area: they were lies. (Both! Voters! Supported! The! RFA! Where! They! Voted! Oppose!) You won't answer but I'll ask anyway: is lying not forbidden by policy? City of Silver 02:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   Neither voter was lying. Both said they wanted to support but were opposing in protest. Where is the lie? Primefac (talk) 10:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Primefac: Those two voters claimed they supported the candidate but voted to oppose. The word to describe their claim they supported the candidate when they knew their votes would count as opposition to the candidate is lying. If they supported the candidate, they'd have supported the candidate. If they opposed the candidate, their claims they supported the candidate were lies. I honestly can't believe that I have to explain this. City of Silver 00:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'm pretty sure there's no policy against lying about one's current opinion anyways... Aaron Liu (talk) 01:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Aaron Liu: If true, that sucks, doesn't it? City of Silver 01:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   Nah. It doesn't do anything, did not do anything, and (seems like it) won't do anything. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   This can't be a reply to what I just said. To quote myself for a second time: Everybody knows [the liars' votes] didn't affect the vote! Everybody knows [the bureaucrats] wouldn't take them seriously! Toss them anyways! City of Silver 02:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

7. Oppose It's too subjective and vague about what is meant by improper conduct and evidence. Consider some recent opposes such as "I have some concerns about experience and maturity."; "Pretty damning concerns about judgement."; "Insufficient emotional maturity for an admin."; "User takes themselves way too seriously...". No specific evidence was given for these comments but demanding this would result in more toxic drama rather than less. See also leopards. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Oppose per Johnuniq and SportingFlyer. While this may seem innocuous, I'm concerned that it may make it harder to oppose and the salience of a notice may, at the margin, discourage a genuine oppose. Actual incivility can easily be taken care of by our normal processes. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

   Actual incivility can easily be taken care of by our normal processes. From the actual incidents that have happened at RfA, this clearly isn't the case. Galobtter (talk) 02:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

9. Oppose - unless it is to be suggested that policies on civility and personal attacks do not apply elsewhere, such a proposal is pointless. If there is civility-based disruption at RfA, deal with it by taking action (e.g. suspensions/bans). If one feels RfA is currently afflicted by civility concerns, that's an argument for stronger action, not for this reminder. Banedon (talk) 05:10, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose as pointless. The civility & NPA policies already apply everywhere on Wikipedia, if someone is breaking the rules, we have ANI for that -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Oppose we have exisiting civility and NPA policies - I worry this would facilitate blocking of any adverse comment outlined by preceding — Preceding unsigned comment added by Casliber (talk • contribs) 21:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose Per Fastily - saying they "apply at RfA" seems to imply that civility and personal attack rules don't apply elsewhere on Wikipedia. They should be enforced equally everywhere, people should be expected to read and understand the rules when making an account or risk being blocked. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 20:10, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (proposal 2)

1. Concern - I am concerned about how this will be applied when an editor leaves a good faith but bluntly worded comment at an RFA… situations where Incivility isn’t intended, but may perceived. Blueboar (talk) 18:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
   • It would be handled the same way we handle civility issues in the rest of the encyclopedia. That is, we WP:AGF and politely ask that the editor reword their statement. — HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 19:51, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
     • Don't be so sure. Look at all the badgering of oppose comments that we have now. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
       • This proposal would apply to oppose-badgering, too (see WP:SAUCE). — HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 13:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

     There is no one single way that we handle civility issues in the rest of the encyclopedia. It varies wildly depending on the particulars of any given situation. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:31, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Support civility clerking, but Oppose it being done by self-appointed admins at their whim. Admins must not be allowed to be perceiveable as gatekeepers to adminship. A bureaucrat could clerk, but then that bureaucrat would be involved and unsuitable for being a closer. This is probably not a problem it is the same as with bureacrats who !vote. Ideally, the bureacrats will select/approve someone or some few to be clerks. The ideal clerk would be a bureaucrat with experience closing RfA, but maybe a respected nonadmin could do it at least as well. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:41, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (proposal 2)

Let's say an editor makes an oppose comment like this:

• Oppose. I don't have any specific incidents in mind, but my interactions with the candidate leave me with the gut feeling that they will be too quick with the block button.

Supporters of the RfA candidate might believe sincerely that this is an aspersion made with the express statement that no specific evidence is going to be presented. It's possible to read the alternative proposal literally, as indicating that the community would authorize an administrator to sanction the editor who made the oppose. And yet it seems to me that this should be an allowable argument to make at an RfA. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

That's an absolutely reasonable thing to say at RfA. I almost never comment at RfA except when it's somebody I've known for a while because that's the only way to really get to know a person. If somebody who has interacted with the candidate over a period of time has a gut feeling one way or another, that's something I want to know. RoySmith (talk) 20:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes @RoySmith: that makes sense to me! Lightburst (talk) 04:33, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, indeed it is. The alternative proposal says, however, Editors may not make allegations of improper conduct without evidence. I suppose that one could wikilawyer that "they will be too quick with the block button" is speculation about future conduct instead of an allegation of improper conduct that has already happened. And one would hope that admins would be clueful enough to know that the oppose isn't really what this proposal is trying to prevent. But the practical reality is that this proposal would put a chill on such opposes, and could well lead to attempts to game the language to make a mountain out of a molehill. (If anyone doubts that, just consider how some opposes get badgered.) And if admins are clueful enough to know not to block the opposer in this example, then they are clueful enough to deal with real problems without the need for the proposed language. I think this alternative proposal would end up being a net negative. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The precise wording can be tweaked. In general, there is a difference between accusing a user of bad behavior in the past, accusing them of bad intentions for the future, and trying to project their future behavior. The first 2 necessarily need evidence, while the third can certainly be "gut feeling". I certainly would be unaffected by this third type of reasoning, but the voter had at least given some indication of why he/she is opposing the candidate. Animal lover |666| 00:05, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• IMO what's actually wrong with RFA is the whole idea of it. There is no fixing it, because it's a stupid idea from the get-go. It's the same stupid idea as WP:RFC/U was. And for some reason that I don't understand, this community figured out that RFC/U was a stupid idea years ago and got rid of it, but maintains the same damn system for admin rights.

  What's stupid about RFA and RFC/U, fundamentally, is the very idea that we should publicly evaluate one of us. Has anyone reading this ever, in any other aspect of their life, seen anything like this happen? Ever gone to a school where the entire faculty and student body gets together and talks about you? Or had a job where an all-staff meeting is called and the subject of discussion is the performance of an employee? The closest thing I can think of is an intervention (counseling), and even then, that's close family and friends, not hundreds of strangers. (And that's without getting into real world elections, which are done by secret ballot.)

  Why do we do this? Because years ago WMF Legal said "community vetting" had to happen in order to give someone the viewdeleted permission. More recently, at one of the rounds of RFA reform discussion, WMF Legal backed off of that and said they'd consider alternatives. I think the community should tell WMF Legal tough cookies, we are not going to engage in public discussions of the job performance of editors, and WMF Legal is just going to have to figure out some other way. Because public performance reviews of editors are not healthy. It's way too easy, as we have seen time and time again, for such discussions to be derailed or to devolve into accusations, arguments, and so forth.

  You can't control hundreds of people... the more participation, the more likelihood that someone, somehow, will cause a problem. That's why in the real world we don't have public performance reviews in which hundreds of people participate. It's foolish to even attempt such a thing, even moreso on a website with hundreds of strangers, where almost literally anyone can participate. Yet Wikipedia continues the tradition. It's time for everyone to stop pretending that public performance evaluations are a normal thing to do. It's unhealthy. End it. Levivich (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  All that WMF has ever said is that there should be some form of community process. It never specified what form that should take. A proposal to have an Arbcom style election had good support but failed only due to technical issues. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  I have a draft to reignite that proposal somewhere, but I'm just a bit tired at the moment. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  The supports were close to double the number of opposes, so I'm not sure "failed" is the right term. There isn't a technology-based technical issue at the frequency level that was being discussed. The concern is WMF staffing to support the vote. isaacl (talk) 05:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  That RFC result was very unexpected. In my opinion, it should have been similar to the bot approval process: you get consensus first, then worry about technical details later in a separate step. That rfc should have been the consensus statement. It should have closed as "consensus to try some kind of RFA voting system, with technical details to be determined later". If someone were to rerun that rfc, with the correct closers, I'm pretty sure it would pass. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  +1. Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2021 review/Proposals#Closed: 8B Admin elections actually passed by a vote of 72-39, nearly 2:1 in favor. Levivich (talk) 18:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  English Wikipedia has a history of being influenced by libertarian views that underlie its adherence to consensus decision-making for almost everything. But consensus doesn't scale up to larger groups; it stalemates action. And yes, on top of that, evaluating people in a large, public group meeting isn't done outside of very specific professions. On a sidenote, RFC/U didn't end because of a consensus view that it was a bad idea to have public evaluation of editors. It ended because the commenters couldn't impose any sanctions through that process, so they thought it was ineffective. WMF Legal is not to blame for this. Those who like to participate in discussions about decision-making are loathe to give up the outsized-influence a small number of people can have to block changes they disagree with. So the community has been unable to agree on following approaches used by other organizations to make decisions more effectively. I understand and appreciate the advantages of consensus decision-making and letting everyone weigh in, but they come with an inherent cost that can't be avoided by tinkering with rules of behaviour. The community will have to shift towards other options for at least some things, which can include voting on certain decisions, delegating primary responsibility for certain tasks to designated subsets of the community, adopting some community hierarchy for interpreting policy, or some other commonly used option in the real world. Alternatively, the community can shrink down drastically back to a level where consensus might be more effective, but that's probably only going to happen if the site is abandoned by most of the existing community (and likely overrun by promotional editing at that point). isaacl (talk) 22:56, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Levivich during WP:RFA2021, legal confirmed what Hawkeye says. There are any number of community processes which can work from their perspective. What wouldn't work is something like we do for ECR where we would give sysop to everyone with at least X years and Y edits or whatever. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  Since the discussion has broadened to RfA in general, I'd like to make a general comment that does get back to the proposal here, as well. If I try to think of two things where the community keeps trying to come up with proposals for improvement, and the proposals never get consensus, the top two might very well be civility and RfA. Everyone (including me) agrees that we ought to do better with civility, and we ought to do better with the RfA process. And year after year, proposals are made, and fail. Alas, the proposals here have hit the jackpot, by trying to deal with both civility and RfA. (What could possibly go wrong?) I've also been editing here for long enough that I well remember when the widespread concern in the community related to RfA was how to have a sort-of reverse RfA, where the community could have a mechanism to de-sysop admins who were acting like jerks. Gradually, over time, ArbCom got to be good at dealing with that. So now, the pendulum has swung back the other way, with concerns over RfA being unable to get enough new applicants. As I've said earlier in this discussion, the solution to that problem won't be found in the proposals here. The community just needs to decide not to pile on when reasons for oppose at RfA are not part of a pattern. Editors don't decline to be candidates because someone at the RfA is going to be incivil. It's because real people, including those who would make excellent admins, don't want to get hassled over the one or two times they did something genuinely regrettable. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  Can we please not waste more words and time on these proposals? The community in its current state has shown itself that it wants RfA reform but cannot and will likely never agree with itself on how carry out that reform. If the community can't agree to come up with a system that is better than forcing people into public performances in front of hundreds of strangers, then so be it. What should be a cordial and basic exercise of governance can evolve into a poorly moderated jeering mass at a moment's notice. Not to mention the public nature of !votes means that people expressing their opinions are subject to badgering and drama. This discussion is particularly disappointing for me, a poor guy had his religion belittled amidst drama and attention from other editors he did not ask for. If we had an actual secret ballot both candidates and !voters would be spared of ridicule, but obviously nothing will be done because of technical infeasibility or people liking the current system more for their own personal reasons. Better to let them continue their talk of the lack of admins and just move on. Alright, that's enough words from a rando like me wasted on this topic. Time to step away from this and get back to cleaning up spam. The Night Watch (talk) 03:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  This ^ Lightburst (talk) 04:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  I think there are structural reasons for the pile-ons too. Notionally opposes at RfA carry more weight because success requires a 2:1 ratio of supports to opposes. But the reality is the reverse, because unless an RfA fails immediately as WP:NOTNOW, there's usually at least 100 or so supports before the first substantial oppose vote is made. So opposers feel like they have to overcome the momentum of the candidate's friends and those who just vote support for every RfA (as they're perfectly entitled to), leading to lengthy and repetitive rationales, which provokes badgering, which leads to more verbiage and repetition, and so on.

  The only ways I can think of addressing this involve making RfA either a secret ballot and/or having some sort of selections committee. As Levivich says, holding public elections-cum-performance-reviews is just a fundamentally odd thing to do. It produces all sorts of weird dynamics that can't be fixed by exhorting people to just be nice or not pile on or whatever, because individually they're already trying to. – Joe (talk) 08:53, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Alternatively, an RfA could start with some period of discussion before voting begins (and this could be combined with one of your other methods, as indeed was proposed in the elections one that almost passed in 2021). Barkeep49 (talk) 17:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, I still think an open discussion period followed by a closed ballot is the best model all-round, and still think the 2021 discussion showed a solid consensus to at least try that... – Joe (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  The "community vetting" thing is an extremely low bar, and I think it only precludes things like automatic promotion based on edit count. I am mystified why this WMF comment has been used so successfully to argue for the broken and harmful status quo. —Kusma (talk) 09:25, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, exactly. As I noted above (but which might have gotten lost in subsequent discussion) in 2021 WMF Legal commented (in part) The key point, per our previous commentary on the issue is to ensure that the process is one that can make sure that the selected candidates are overall trustworthy and responsible.. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps it has been used, but offhand Levivich's comment above is the only one I can recall right now, so I don't agree that this concern has been used successfully to support the current RfA process. My recollection is that commenters understood the rationale from WMF Legal, as both Barkeep49 and Hawkeye have expressed, that in order to meet the responsibility of removing legally prohibited content, the privilege of viewing deleted content can't be handed out automatically through criteria that any editor can achieve. Other selection processes still meet the need of choosing "trustworthy and responsible" candidates. isaacl (talk) 19:44, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Not really an offhand comment :-) WP:RFA2021 is what I was referring to when I wrote "at one of the rounds of RFA reform discussion, WMF Legal backed off of that." One can read the Brainstorming, Phase 1, and Phase 2 pages to see the discussion surrounding WMF Legal (CTRL+F for "legal," for Phase 2 you have to uncollapse all collapsed boxes), and in Brainstorming is the discussion about BK reaching out to WMF Legal which results in WMF Legal "backing off" as it were, saying they'd be open to RFA alternatives.

  FWIW, there are good reasons not to have any kind auto-admin system (automatically given to all editors upon meeting some threshold like 2 yrs/20k edits), but WMF Legal's objections aren't among them. As I said in my post above, I think the community should devise whatever system works best for the community (discussion, secret vote, even auto-admin if that's what the community wants); any objections by WMF Legal, or technical challenges e.g. SecurePoll limitations, can be overcome. We shouldn't treat (as we have in the past) either an objection from WMF Legal or asserted technical limitations as if they created insurmountable obstacles. The obstacles are very surmountable. We should do what works best -- the technology and the lawyers will conform to the needs of the people creating the content, we don't have to do it the other way around. Levivich (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  By offhand, I meant off the top of my head, I can't recall anyone successfully making the same argument you made. I've been following the discussions about this from long before the 2021 review; there hasn't been a consensus view that WMF Legal only supported keeping the RfA process as it existed at the time it issued its original opinion. But history doesn't matter for moving forward. I agree there seems to be an available consensus for anonymous voting that can be established. isaacl (talk) 22:53, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Levivich makes good points but there are repeated examples of such behaviour in history such as public humiliation, mutual criticism, and struggle sessions. On tech platforms, it's now online shaming. Of course, supporters want RfA to be more pleasant and so there's all this pressure to play nice but the purpose of the process requires it to be challenging. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:18, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

How to implement anonymous voting

As a practical matter, how would be implement anonymous voting? The available tool is meta:SecurePoll, but I think the community would find it rather onerous to use. It needs to be configured for each election, has some scheduling limitations, and requires WMF staff to get involved to set it up each time. RoySmith (talk) 23:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I've talked to the WMF T&S team, and they say they'd be willing to do it on a limited scale. We couldn't hold monthlies, but it's doable. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean monthlies, theleekycauldron? — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 23:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Ixtal: We couldn't do monthly elections :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh, so we'd be batching RfA into quarterly (or whatever) tranches? I guess that would work, but wouldn't that mess with WP:BATON? RoySmith (talk) 23:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

We'd be leaving the old RfA system intact, so i guess the baton would live on for those who choose to do public RfAs. More to the point... I don't think it matters too much. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Traditions are made for the participants, rather than the other way around, so I'm sure the community will find a way to adapt. isaacl (talk) 23:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd say it goes in whatever order the 'crats implement the results. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think voters would find it unduly onerous. Staffing resources is a constraint. There is a Phabricator ticket open to track the task of allowing it be administered by local admins, so in the longer term, if the community is able to assume responsibility for configuration, it can ramp up usage. Initially I imagine that elections would be a supplementary path for selecting administrators. The community would be able to learn from the experience and decide how to proceed. isaacl (talk) 23:48, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

My favorite question when considering new and untried things is, "What's the worst that could happen?" In this case, the worst that could happen is we run an election and it goes badly. But we've got that already. So I say let's go for it. RoySmith (talk) 23:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

This 1000% — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 00:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Allow local wikis to set up elections" is phab:T301180. SecurePoll is also very secure. Perhaps overly secure. Steps like scrutineering (checkusering every voter) can probably be dropped from the RFA voting workflow. The entire workflow of SecurePoll should be documented somewhere by someone knowledgeable, and then examined to see if other optimizations can be made to it. For example, is encryption overkill for RFA, and would turning that off help speed things up? etc. We should also consider if we want to institute minimum voting requirements such as extended confirmed, to prevent mass IP or throwaway account edits that could swing the vote. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I've worked up a lot of the details in a draft i've been writing over at Wikipedia:2024 administrative elections proposal, if we wanna kick that around? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:16, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

As I discussed previously on the Requests for adminship discussion page, votes are encrypted so no one with access to the underlying database (either directly or I suppose via a MediaWiki vulnerability) will be able to determine how people voted. Running an unencrypted election removes a bottleneck in administering the encryption, and would speed up the tallying process. I don't think the tallying process part is a big problem in the overall picture; scrutineering is the most significant delay. isaacl (talk) 00:23, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• It is still quite an ordeal to run Secure Poll, but would be feasible if we wanted to do quarterly elections - perhaps in addition to having the existing RFA process for on-demand; candidates could choose which they prefer. The "big deal" would be that it is a vote. Something to decide would need to be if there is also an on-wiki "discussion" to go along with the vote or not. If no discussion is allowed, we could also have an on-wiki pure vote, and make a rule that the only contributions allowed are "support" or "oppose", without commentary. — xaosflux ^Talk 10:23, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  I imagine there would still be discussion somewhere. Perhaps a week of q&a and discussion, and then a week of secret voting. Similar to how ACE is divided into the q&a phase and the voting phase. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:47, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Anonymous voting

Wifione and a couple of other very problematic contributors have demonstrated that RfA needs to be in the open. With anonymous voting, no one would notice the waves of sock and meatpuppets that had been carefully prepared to control who gets to be an admin. Once the word gets around the paid-editing community, they will also set up a hundred dependable voter accounts. They would vote oppose for anyone with a record of opposing paid editing, and support for their candidates. Johnuniq (talk) 01:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I think someone with your technical expertise should know about ACE and its rather robust scrutineering procedures. Also, everyone in the core community (and everyone who RfAs) virulently opposes paid editing, it's a cliché. Even if that conspiracy theory were 1. true and 2. technically viable, there's no pro-paid-editing faction to even boost. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 01:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

There is no pro-paid-editing faction now because everything is in the open and someone would notice dubious RfA votes. Three scrutineers under pressure to quickly check 2 or 3 hundred votes would find it very hard to investigate dubious voters. Scrutineers would more likely be bound by prescriptive rules that prevent an investigation based on a vague suspicion. We know that Wifione was successful in socking as Lourdes and becoming an admin (diff). We know that an RfA that looked like it was going to be successful was closed when someone decided the candidate was a sock of an LTA (I would have to remind myself where that was). Johnuniq (talk) 03:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Eostrix. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:53, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The current process, though, didn't stop either of these situations. If the community really wants to reduce the probability of this happening again, it's going to have to be willing to tradeoff some of its other views that it currently holds by consensus. isaacl (talk) 04:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Those two cases involved talented individuals working alone. There has been compelling off-wiki evidence of two cases showing people organizing off-wiki to set up teams of editors to push their favorite POV in contentious topics. In addition, several similar cases of paid editing teams have been found. They get noticed because of the open nature of editing—someone sees unfamiliar user names arguing in a meat kind of way and uses Google to find a website where it is being arranged. It would be easy for these kind of groups to organize underground and create 100 hard-to-detect socks with 500/30 status. They could then sway an anonymous RfA. That doesn't matter for Arbcom because there are a very large number of voters and they elect a committee where it wouldn't be an enormous problem if there were one or two bad apples. Johnuniq (talk) 04:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Any group willing to put in the long-term effort to build up a coterie of reputable editors is going to be able to influence the current RfA process as well. I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about the possibility. But any remedies to address that type of concerted effort are going to involve changing something from the current setup, and probably something creating some kind of hierarchy of trust. isaacl (talk) 04:37, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

You don't know if those two cases involved talented individuals working alone or groups of people working together. What those two cases prove is that the current system isn't good for vetting because it's easy to beat.

Also, admins are a bigger pool than arbcom (400+ active admins) so there is even less damage a single bad admin can do, which is another thing the Wifione case proved. What harm did he do with the Lourdes account? The Wiki is still here. Frankly, bad admins can and have done damage, but it's always fixable, and the current system has passed plenty of bad candidates (and failed good ones).

Above all, we don't know if another system would work better or worse than the current system because we've never tried any other system. Levivich (talk) 16:31, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not think it is prudent to dismiss something purely on the basis of containing a hypothetical conspiracy, since thousands of conspiracy theories are verifiably correct. "What if incandescent lightbulb manufacturers colluded to make shitty bulbs that burnt out prematurely", or "what if Bolsheviks conspired to depose the Tsar", for example, are things which actually happened.

More pointedly, "what if right-wing dudes took over the Croatian Wikipedia" is also a thing which actually happened, so the idea that conspiracies are simply impossible due to Wikipedians being too smart seems untrue. jp×g🗯️ 19:42, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• With most configurations of the current Secure Poll setup, the "votes" are anonymous, but the "voters" are not. For example here is a list of everyone that voted in ACE last year, and if their vote was accepted. No one knows how they voted, but anyone can know if they voted. So traditional on-wiki methods can be used to investigate participants in secure polls. — xaosflux ^Talk 10:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
• Does this need to be anonymous, though? Would it be possible to set up a system exactly the same as the one we have now, but instead of !voting by posting in the article, you !vote by filling out a little form which gets revealed at the end of the RfA process, and the transcript of which gets sent to crat chat if it's close to the 66-70% threshold? The problem here is that we still need to discuss the RfA as a community, so there really may not be an easy fix. SportingFlyer T·C 10:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  This is generally where I am at. I think there is great value in RfA !voters engaging in the discussion (whether reviewing the community questions or reviewing any general discussion) before casting a !vote (whether through a poll or in the current setup). Unlike others editors here, I think in a Secure Poll setup, there will be more "promote" votes because many editors won't notice any concerns that may exist. - Enos733 (talk) 17:46, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  I think the community being able to assist in the scrutineering of votes in such a way would be positive. It might be a bit weird compared to know if we had a week of discussion followed by a week of votes and then untimed scrutineering, but it seems like a better alternative to now where you'll get a flood of 50-odd support votes before any concerns are even brought up followed by (usually) a shitshow for the 6 remaining days and a sudden closure. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 17:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  As the arbitration committee elections demonstrate, discussion of the candidates can still occur while using an anonymous vote. Part of the confrontational nature of the current RfA process is that each person weighing in is potentially starting a new discussion thread. In addition to the candidate getting to witness the same debates play out repeatedly, those commenting have to consider their desire to participate in selecting an administrator versus their appetite for engaging in possibly a prolonged debate. I appreciate why some consider this to be a feature, but it also discourages certain personality types from wanting to participate, and I think the RfA process can benefit from getting input from those editors as well. isaacl (talk) 18:27, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• I think it's perfectly possible to have our cake and eat it too per others in this thread. We can have a discussion section about the candidate where people can bring up potential concerns with a candidate combined with anonymous voting. If someone has a reason to vote one way or the other that they want to share with the community to convince others, they can put it in the discussion section. Otherwise everyone else would simply vote. Pinguinn 🐧 19:47, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
• I think the issue is that it is not anyone's business what a person's reason is for voting a certain way. It is none of the crat's business either. When we vote for ARBs we do not need to pontificate or satisfy someone else by providing a "valid" reason. If someone wants an issue or an experience that they had with a candidate to be known they can choose to share it on a talk page. This way everyone votes their conscience and nobody holds grudges over a vote. Primefac has said RFA is a consensus building, but that is not what it is, it is a vote. 75% is an automatic pass so where is the consensus in that? See this discussion where multiple editors said it is a straight vote. The cliff notes: In that discussion, HJ Mitchell said it was a straight vote, Vanamonde93, RickinBaltimore and Serial Number 54129 agreed. Lightburst (talk) 22:43, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  The views of four editors can't be extrapolated to represent the views of the community at large. Many editors have more nuanced opinions on the matter. isaacl (talk) 23:13, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Tangential discussion that involves a personal dispute Aaron Liu (talk) 21:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Here is the broader context of HJ Mitchell's comment: If your vote (and it is a vote, RfA is about numbers, not discussion or consensus) is not based on the candidate's suitability for adminship, it absolutely should be struck. Given that you recently placed yourself at the center of controversy by casting a !vote that would be struck per HJ Mitchell's reasoning, it seems duplicitous for you to cite him as being in agreement with your position. I have taken the liberty of pinging him here since I'm sure you wouldn't want to misrepresent his position. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC) I am very concerned by your hostility toward me and I have left you a message on your talk page. I hope we can each discuss governance without sniping and parsing. The gist of the statement involved whether RFA is a vote or consensus. There seems to be this belief that we all have to agree on everything, including RFA candidates. And that leads to vote striking and other nonsense in an RFA. I want to ask you to please avoid following me as you did to Lilian's page, and avoid calling me out as you did here, and on other pages yesterday, and below. It is troubling and it feels like harassment. Thanks. Lightburst (talk) 02:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC) I like to call things what they are instead of what we think they should be (very un-Wikipedian of me!) so yes, it's clearly a vote. But I've always said that I'd prefer it to be a discussion of a candidate's suitability for adminship, like a (good) job interview and less like a popularity contest. I don't know if the outcomes would be different but I think it would make the experience more pleasant for all involved, which might attract a different kind of candidate and/or a different kind of voter. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 06:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC) and avoid calling me out as you did here, and on other pages yesterday, and below @Lightburst Unrelated to all your other comments, this feels unenforceable and a strong net negative. If you do not wish other people replying to you or calling you out, you should stop making statements. If you think someone is harassing you, please take it to ANI/another appropriate venue and get a formal IBAN. You assert bold claims that also require sufficient backing; undercutting any opposing arguments with harassment claims will not do any favours. Soni (talk) 04:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC) @Soni: Please AGF, you just accused me of hurling accusations to undercut opposition. Tsk tsk. You should read the details of the harassment. I do not ever want to go to ANI for anything and as you know discussion and conflict resolution should always come first. Anyway, read up in that link and see how the editor is following and harassing. I am trying to work it out with them rather than escalating. I asked the editor for an informal Iban and I think maybe they agreed. They snarled and deleted the message. Anyway, I did not want to let your bad faith accusation hang out there like a Matzah ball. Lightburst (talk) 15:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC) I had already read the details, found them lacking, and do not think your diffs supported your summary. But that's beside the point; this conversation, and 2-3 threads above, is already not for this venue. AGF is not a shield. And shaming others with a tsk tsk is usually not the way to prove your case. You seem to simultaneously believe there is an informal IBAN already agreed upon; and also need to reinforce it and request for it again in unrelated other venues. Either you both already have an informal IBAN, or you don't. Claiming harassment at unconnected conversations is the opposite of "dispute resolution", so I request you to take your diffs to an actually relevant venue please. Soni (talk) 19:56, 20 February 2024 (UTC) Thank much so much for enabling and shaming. I will always stick up for myself in all discussions. Now I have to ask you to leave me alone. Lightburst (talk) 21:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Consensus usually refers to general agreement among the members of a group or community. The community is in general agreement that any user receiving above 75% of the !votes at an RFA will be granted adminship, and any with 65-75% would be sent to a 'crat chat to find a general agreement amongst 'crats whether there was general agreement amongst the RFA participants whether the user should be an administrator. We do not need to go to a 'crat chat when a supermajority of participants finds general agreement to promote. So yes, it is a consensus-building exercise (see also the 2019 reaffirmation of this), and we use the votes to help determine that consensus. (please ping on reply) Primefac (talk) 08:56, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  FWIW I was agreeing with what Harry said about the consequences of commenting at RFA. I don't think it's a straight vote. It's closer to a straight vote than many of our consensus-building discussions, and I would personally also agree with Harry that it should be more of a discussion, but if it was purely a vote then support percentage should predict whether someone gets the bit after a crat chat and it does not. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:37, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• My only thought here is that we should allow open community discussion so users can provide pieces of information (i.e. potentially problematic diffs). This way, some users that haven't seen a particular thing will be more likely to see it and will be more well-informed. And we should be able to ask the candidates questions, too. ‍ Relativity 01:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• I agree entirely with Johnuniq above. Every behavior that we dislike in the current system would remain relevant in an anonymous vote; there would just be fewer consequences for being a jerk to your colleagues or for attempting to subvert the system. We have systems in place to stop people from being nasty to each other. We should use them. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:50, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 3: Add three days of discussion before voting (trial)

Following the passage of this RfC, for 5 Requests for Adminship (RFAs) which are not closed as SNOW or NOTNOW (or for six months, whichever happens first), RfAs will last 10 days. For the first 3 days (72 hours) no "Support", "Oppose", or "Neutral" comments/!votes may be made. Optional questions may still be asked and answered, and general comments may still be left. After 3 days, "Support", "Oppose", and "Neutral" !votes may be left for the remaining 7 days (same length as an RfA is now). This RfC does not change other RfA procedures/rules. 17:49, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 3)

1. This doesn't fix RfA. But I think it has the potential to take some of the temperature of it down since people will be able to express concerns and respond to those concerns without the immediate stakes of having that discussion impact the support percentage. It might also allow for easier clerking because comments which cross the line may not be attached to a vote. The trial would also serve as a data point to understand how other proposed RfA reforms (such as anonymized voting with seperate discussion being discussed above) might work in reality. I suspect that this change might make increase the number of opposes because people who check an RfA once may not return to !vote or may !vote after seeing concerns and thus oppose or abstain from !voting where they might have supported before. But I do not think that will necessarily mean fewer people will pass RfA. It's just that support %s will return to historical norms, with fewer ending in the very high 90s. Importantly for me, I think it has the potential to make RfA less unpleasant for candidates. So I think this is worth trying. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:49, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
2. As I've previously discussed, I think a two-phase approach would help improve the effectiveness of discussion and provide the opportunity for additional information being available to those offering their support or opposition when the second phase begins. isaacl (talk) 18:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per Barkeep49. Having discussion first makes everything clearer and settles against inertia to make the votes much fairer. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. I think it's worth trying. It doesn't take away anything (there's still a 7-day !voting period), so it seems like a constructive experiment. Schazjmd (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
5. This seems like it could do quite a bit of good, and if it ends up going poorly, it's temporary. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:04, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
6. I support this trial being done. jp×g🗯️ 19:35, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
7. I like this as a first step to a secret ballot. Many of the concerns about a secret ballot are that voters would not be aware of past indiscretions without doing a significant amount of research, but if this process works to raise and vet concerns about the candidate first, it would open the door up to reconsidering a closed voting process. --Ahecht (TALK
   PAGE) 20:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
8. This seems to be a good trial. I would suggest that the trial last until 5 RfAs occur (without the time period), just to make sure we get a few RfAs to evaluate. --Enos733 (talk) 20:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Per Special:Diff/1208285818 RoySmith (talk) 20:27, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
10. While I'm against ever turning RfA into a secret ballot, I think this is worth a trial run as a way of avoiding the premature pile-on supports that so often occur prior to proper vetting. I do, however, wonder if this will dissuade candidates from running during the trial period for fear that they will end up linked to an experiment gone wrong. Also, will there be any measures taken to prevent participants from declaring their intent to !vote one way or another during the discussion phase? LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
11. I rather like this idea. If nothing else, it would allow people to express their thoughts, and receive feedback on those, before actually staking them to a position on supporting or opposing. It's always easier to change one's mind prior to publicly taking a stance than after having done so. But absolutely never would I support any "secret ballot", and I am certainly not supporting this as a way toward that. This should be a supplement to, not a replacement for, discussion during the actual "voting" phase. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:46, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Let's give it a shot.—S Marshall T/C 21:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

    And I would support the alternative proposal for 2+5 even more strongly.—S Marshall T/C 16:05, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

13. I think this is a very good idea, so don't mind my concerns too much. I'm concerned 10 days is a lot. I'm concerned people will comment and then forget to vote. And I'm concerned this will be a tool to increase self-nominations, since you won't immediately get jumped on with a bunch of opposes. The first concerns will be interesting to see if we approve this. The final concern is more pressing, I think we should exclude self-nominations from the trial process. But we should absolutely try this. SportingFlyer T·C 21:07, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Worth a shot NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 21:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

    Support the ammended (5+2) duration. No need to add stress to what is already a stressful proccess NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 03:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

15. With the addendum that candidates be allowed to opt-out of this and in to the normal system. I would slightly prefer if votes were left on a seperate page entirely and not allowed to have attached rationales, but this is an excellent first step Mach61 (talk) 21:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Yes, I support anything that gets us closer to a "secret ballot. As I said in discussion it is not anyone's business who another editor voted for. This is the way editors can be free to vote their conscience. But this is a step in the right direction by removing the badgering on the voting page. Lightburst (talk) 22:46, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Hopefully something like this can make the process easier for both candidates and opposers. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:49, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

    Second choice to Proposal 3b. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:01, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

18. Let's try it. It can't possibly be worse... HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:48, 18 February 2024 (UTC) UPDATE: second choice to 3B HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 05:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
19. This'll be great because otherwise someone might support, but then a new piece of information comes up where they might oppose then, but may not strike their support. Or vice versa. Let's at least give this a try. ‍ Relativity 01:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Worth a shot :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 02:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    I would also support a 2+5 – lengthening RfA isn't my favorite tack, but again, let's try something. I'm glad we're getting proposals off the ground :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    Moved to oppose in favour of 3B. SilkTork (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC) I think this discussion-first proposal is worth trying, though I have concerns: 1) Extending the length of time someone is under scrutiny could increase the tension for the candidate - especially as they have to wait until after people start examining/criticising them before the voting begins; 2) It is possible that the same incivility will occur when people raise concerns, and others directly challenge those concerns, and heated discussions result, as this proposal doesn't address those issues, just delays the voting period; 3) This may increase the number of questions a candidate will have to answer both in terms of the extended time, and the lack of information being put forward by voters (so people may seek out that extra information by asking questions of the candidate), which may put off future candidates. However, my concerns may not materialise, so it's worth trying. My main thoughts, meanwhile, on toxicity in RfA is that it is caused by threaded discussions - people engaging in direct responses, sometimes emotionally, heated, and personal, which then escalate. I think it would be worth trialling an RfA in which people only comment in their own sections, as in ArbCom discussions. I won't formally suggest that now, as I feel that would take attention away from this proposal. I'll suggest it after this proposal has been trialled (as I hope and expect it will be). Thanks Barkeep49 for suggesting it. SilkTork (talk) 02:56, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    Could prohibiting threaded replies in the support/oppose/neutral section work? - Enos733 (talk) 03:39, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    That would be the idea, as that is where the toxicity occurs. Folks tend not to get so heated over comments as much as they do over votes, especially (almost exclusively) negative votes. I've seen people complain when someone raises a justifiable objection in an otherwise 100% support RfA as though that single negative vote somehow soils the RfA; or perhaps they may be concerned that the negative comment will have traction, and turn the course away from their favoured candidate. The nature of Wikipedia is that we invest a bit of ourselves into the project, this aids motivation, work ethic, pride in the job, etc, but can drive us to be too obsessive and to be lead by our emotions rather than our intelligence and judgement. SilkTork (talk) 11:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

21. Worth trying to see if it can improve our process. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 04:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    Withdrawing support in favor of the related proposal that doesn't extend the length of an RfA. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Frankly, I don't think this will accomplish much. Supporting in the hope that I'm just a little jaded when it comes to RfA, and in support of experimentation with fraught processes in general. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 04:58, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

22. Worth a try! Leijurv (talk) 07:21, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Weak support. Making the period longer is a strong disadvantage for me, and I had hoped for a 3 days discussion and 5 days !voting proposal. That said, the current situation is untenable and this is a move towards a less cruel system where votes are blinded and discussion is an actual discussion rather than a vote. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 07:39, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Support as a trial: almost anything is worth trying. Hopefully we have five knowing volunteers who are happy to test this out (or at least no less happy than they would be to try the current RfA system). Back when I thought it was possible I would ever run at RfA, I considered announcing it 2 days in advance and soliciting discussion and feedback so that constructive criticism wouldn't be so high-stakes or so argumentative as in a "vote". I don't like extending the total length of time, however: it should be 3 days of discussion and 3 days of !votes. — Bilorv (talk) 08:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Definitely worth a shot, although I share @Usedtobecool's reservations below regarding both the increased length as well as the uncertainty for the candidate who is answering questions for three days without getting to see any confirmed support. Regardless, hard to know until we've seen it in effect—and better to try something different than to leave it alone when all agree it's currently in need of help. Retswerb (talk) 09:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
26. I think this needs to come with a prohibition of comments in the voting section, but it goes in a good direction. Femke is right about the length though. —Kusma (talk) 09:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
27. I am not yet convinced that this will make a meaningful difference, but I am fully in support of trying things out to see if they actually do. There is essentially no downside to testing this. firefly ( t · c ) 11:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
28. Per Firefly. No reservation re. length of time, as the period of most stress will be reduced from seven to three days. Just to call it a '10-day period' is too round; RfA is likely most broken now because everything is bundled together. ——Serial 13:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    Serial Number 54129, there is nothing stopping whatever happens in the first three days from continuing the full 10-days. Or did I miss something? Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

29. We will never see if it works unless we try. I think that ideally, we should restrict the first three days to Q&A only, without discussion that may influence future votes (particularly since the candidate will be tempted or even obliged to reply to that discussion), but let good not become the enemy of perfection. We can also try the ARBCOM-style threaded discussions, where only the user and the candidate may speak to each other, but let's see first if this trial succeeds. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
30. Support per above. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 15:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
31. Why not. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:06, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    I support this in principal. TEN consecutive days sounds like an ordeal. A couple days of Q&A followed by a break. Candidate should have the option to have a break in between Q&A and voting. Schierbecker (talk) 20:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC) (I now support the 5+2 proposal.) Schierbecker (talk) 18:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

32. Weak support. Mach61 (currently support vote #15) made a very good point that this should not be mandatory for the next five nominees and I'm disappointed that doesn't seem to have gotten traction. I also echo the concern expressed by Femke (currently support vote #25) and others that jeez, ten days is an awfully long time. City of Silver 20:32, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    I don't love that it's mandatory, but I would less enjoy the perception that not waiving the discussion period is a sign of weakness. We need a mix of strong and weak candidates to test this, and allowing a self-selection bias throws off the results. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:15, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

    If I were ready to run for adminship but I didn't want to participate in this experiment, I'd opt out by, well, not running until the experimental period is over. Passively opting out like that would have no avoidable consequences for me. Either the experiment fails and I'd get my way or it passes and I'd be exactly where I would have been had I, against my will, been one of its five subjects. It's the community that would suffer here because we'd be missing out on up to six months of administrative contributions from someone who's good enough to get promoted.

    So no matter what, there will be an opt-out and the candidates who participate will have self-selected. I know I'm on kind of a weird side of AGF when I go on and on about an adminship-worthy candidate getting sneaky like this. I'm just pretty sure that someone who would opt out if they officially could would be awfully motivated to passively opt out if they officially couldn't. City of Silver 21:27, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    Yes, this is exactly what will happen. Anyone who is hesitant will simply wait out the next five RFAs. Which may take a whole six months, if it makes enough people hesitant. -- asilvering (talk) 21:39, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    Support only with Mach61's proposal that any candidate should be allowed to opt out of the trial; if consensus does not develop for that condition, my !vote should be counted as an oppose per Novem Linguae and Yngvadottir. Schierbecker also makes a good point regarding allowing the candidate to take a break. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:40, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

33. I'm guessing the benefits will be marginal at best... but same with the downsides. Why not try it? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 02:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
34. I think it is worth trying. Like a few others I think 10 days may be too long. But I am not sure we can make it perfect right away so I am willing to support. Bruxton (talk) 03:09, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
35. Worth a trial. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 11:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
36. We need to try something different, and we can always go back if this flops. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:32, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
37. Support I will continue to vote for all sufficiently logical RFA reform proposals. I wish this trial was longer, but 5 RFA should at least be a step forward, in case it's a net positive towards RFA's hostility. Having more days for RFA does feel like a negative, but not sufficiently enough for me to oppose. Soni (talk) 14:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
38. Support. Worth trying. It could mitigate some unfair RFA dynamics that happen even in the absence of incivility or trolling. MarioGom (talk) 18:16, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
39. Support. Although I like the 2+5 idea better. It should relieve stress either way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulfas (talk • contribs) 20:23, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
40. Support I'd like to see this AND anonymous voting. That would eliminate the oppose-vote-badgering as well. But I'll take this as a sensible first step in the right direction.→StaniStani 01:25, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
41. Support. I think this is worth trying. In the interests of completeness, I note that there were at least two attempts at RfC-style RfAs in 2007: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Moralis and Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Matt Britt. Neither was successful, either for the candidate or for changing how RfA works. It was also seventeen years ago; I doubt many people who participated are around now or if they are, remember the attempts. I think this idea avoids one of the worst pitfalls: it will still be obvious how to register support or opposition. Mackensen (talk) 01:47, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
42. Support – it's worth trying something new and this seems reasonable, though I think the 2+5 idea is better (I think the general tenor of most RfAs is clear well before 7 days, so no need to make a candidate stay focused on/tied to the process for 3 extra days). I also considered if candidates should be able to opt out but Barkeep49's comment below swayed me against it. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
43. Support the trial period, let's see what happens. Z1720 (talk) 14:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
44. Weak support it's opt-in, if someone wants to try this then sure. I don't think it is going to solve any problem and may require some technical clerking of the timers. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
45. Support per Barkeep. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:37, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
46. Support. I'll have more to say when I write a debrief, but I would have found the first few days of my own recent RfA less stressful had this been in place, since it would have reduced the feeling that at any moment someone could leave a critical comment/!vote that I'd have to respond to as quickly as possible to try to stem a flood of immediate opposition. I oppose making it opt-in (I'll comment on that below). I'd prefer the 3+7, since for purposes of gaining information from a trial, I think it'll be easier for us to sense if the period is too long than if it is too short. Sdkb ^talk 19:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
47. Support (second choice) to 3b as 10 days in total seems quite long, but the discussion first model is good overall. Pinguinn 🐧 20:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
48. Support - I also think 3+5 (or even 2+5) could be interesting as well. - jc37 05:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
49. Nice idea; second choice to 3B. --JBL (talk) 22:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
50. I wasn't sure about this when I first read it but I quite like the idea of a sort of hustings before voting begins. I'd even take it further and say after that initial three days, no further questions should be asked of the candidate, just vote on the information available. That way the candidate can relax a bit during the voting period. WaggersTALK 15:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
51. Second choice to 3b. I don't believe in extending RFAs but that's no reason to block a trial. Only reason I can think of to oppose a trial such as this is if I thought we'd cook lesser admins in the trial period; here, we'll be trying to do the opposite. Usedtobecool ☎️ 12:42, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
52. Weak Support I think 2 is better (see 3b) ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 03:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
53. Support Ivan (talk) 07:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
54. Support. Having read some past RfAs, there are several where there was confusion/allegations at the outset, which were only resolved or clarified after many had voted (i.e. and maybe didn't return to re-check). Better to have some period of discussion first (although I like P13 even better). Aszx5000 (talk) 20:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
55. Support (equally to 3b - I don' think a longer duration affects the benefit either way) Should allow in-depth discussion but reduce drawn-out bickering, and alleviate the current swingy mechanics. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 06:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
56. Support I support any trial that gives a clear explanation (as Barkeep49 did) for what it tries to solve. I wish more processes in English Wikipedia could adopt more of such experimental approach to see if things work out or not. —⁠andrybak (talk) 02:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
57. Support. This speaks to me most clearly out of all the suggested proposals. A discussion-only period would allow the candidate to speak out without the pressure of having comments pile up. I like the three days bit because of time differences across the globe. Not everyone is up at the same time. --Ouro (blah blah) 07:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
58. Weak support, only because of the lengthening, but would be a good idea to try out. 10 days of a better experience for the candidate and with a better discussion improves on 7 lesser days. Worth a try. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
59. Support having this time allows discussion to occur and issues to be raised without a sense of urgency. This is because if there are issues which are not easily seen (for example a well-buried discussion in a user talk page archive), then these may not be raised until half way or fully through an RfA. This also allows those who are unsure of the candidate to work out the reasons for this without feeling like they need to place the oppose vote early to ensure most of the voters see it. Personally, if I vote at an RfA I will likely not go back and review new vote, and as such if a good reason for me to change my vote appears after I've voted I'm not likely to see it. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 17:03, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
60. Support. It is entirely sensible if questions are to be asked and answers provided that the community has the opportunity to assess the candidate on their answers BEFORE !voting commences. Answers can influence decisions and quite often 40+ support !votes are made before a single question is answered. For the record, I suggested this in an RfA review many years ago. It seems to have a greater level of support now and is worth a trial. Leaky caldron (talk) 20:20, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 3)

1. IMO too complicated and won't do much good. RFA really wouldn't be that hard to 80% fix but IMO his isn't it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

   It's not complicated at all, the only difference is that we add 3 extra days to the start in which voting is disabled. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose. Seems to extend RFA from 7 days to 10 days, which will probably increase stress for candidates. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:48, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Novem Linguae: I agree that ten days is long, but I am hopeful that the actual vote may be less stressful. I think many of us would like to try a different way. (I hope this does not feel like badgering) :) Lightburst (talk) 03:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

3. per Novem Linguae. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose per Novem Linguae, this would just serve to discourage more possible candidates. Lightoil (talk) 02:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose anything that makes the process longer isn't suitable. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:38, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose basically per Novem Linguae. This would simply prolong the process for the candidate (and we already have participants being impatient with candidates who don't appear to have their RfA on speed dial for the entire 7 days). It would be difficult to address the merits of the candidacy without in effect casting a premature vote, so I expect the preliminary 3 days would be mostly questions, and there's already a tendency to ask quirky, sometimes repetitive questions; some RfAs in recent years have been a bit of a marathon of questions. I'd expect this change to exacerbate that, and also to front-load the voting once it opens with reactions to the candidate's responses; not only would this mean 3 more days of intensity for the candidate, but fielding questions isn't every candidate's strength, and it doesn't track perfectly with the kinds of communications skills we want from admins. Yngvadottir (talk) 11:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Oppose. I'm sorry to be here, and I appreciate the effort BK49 and others are putting in to try to improve the climate at RFA. But I worry this would have the opposite effect than intended on the candidate's experience. First off, there's the length issue that Novem Linguae points out above. 7 days of hell are quite long enough. Second, there's the issue of morale. By their very nature, negative concerns are...louder, for want of a better word. I suspect that people who have concerns about a candidate are far more likely to post in those first few days than people who don't. As things stand, a candidate who is coming under fire can still see the supports piling up: here they're going to have to endure 3 days of hard questions without the emotional cushion of the supports. Unless of course you allow people who trust the candidate despite concerns to say so, in which case we're back at a !vote. Third, there's the issue of voter commitment. Having seen the RFA banner go up on your watchlist, you as a semi-engaged !voter would need to remember to check back in in 3 days time to express your opinion, assuming you don't have one at the outset. I suspect a fair number of editors are not going to be able or willing to do this. Finally, and taking a step back for a moment; even I've not been here long enough to remember RFC/U, but I did look up why it failed, and I believe a lot of the reasons it got to be an unproductive exercise will apply here as well: I think it does more to enable toxicity, not less (regardless of which "side" that toxicity is coming from). Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

   In terms of the RfA banner, I think that problem is partially solvable by changing the text after the initial discussion period. Starting with something like "questions are now open" to the normal watchlist notice later. My hope is that we can recreate the calmer environment of the Arbcom elections in this initial period; perhaps a follow-up proposal can mirror this process even further. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:27, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

   The banner problem probably can be fixed technically. But while this change may make the environment calmer, I think we'd be sacrificing the candidate's wellbeing for some decorum. I would like participation to be not unpleasant for every good-faith !voter (which, to be clear, is almost but not quite every !voter): but I would prioritize the candidate's wellbeing over that of the !voters, and over our desire for calm. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

8. Oppose per Vanamonde93, Novem Linguae, and Yngvadottir. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:12, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Oppose While I can see how RFA needs to be 7 days, I'm aware that a 7 day process is intimidating, and not something everyone can readily make time for. However most of the !voting is in the first three days, many RFAs are relatively quiet after the first 72 hours. A two stage RFA with an extra three days at the beginning makes one of the problems of RFA worse, as it is likely that the intense bit would also be extended as both the extra three days and the first three days of voting will be high pressure for the candidate. There's also the problem that RFA is already too focussed on the Q&A section at the expense of actually vetting the candidates edits. My fear is that adding an extra three days for increased question activity will exacerbate this problem and make RFA less attractive to potential candidates, as well as less effective at weeding out candidates who would make bad admins ϢereSpielChequers 01:05, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose. Any candidate wanting to extend the process from 7 to 10 days may already spend their first three days at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:44, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    OCRP is a meta-discussion about the candidates’ chances, it has nothing to do with what the participants personally want in an admin Mach61 (talk) 04:38, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    Speaking as someone who would like to be an Admin to do more on WP:RM, and has already done OCRP, I honestly find the prospect of a ten-day process, the first three days of which won't have any !voting so you're essentially just twisting in the wind waiting for something to go bad, even more daunting than that of the present 7-day process. FOARP (talk) 13:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

11. Oppose per Vanamonde - as someone who had a controversial RfA, I think it would've been worse if the first 3 days had just been people discussing - i.e. most likely expressing concerns. The "emotional cushion" - as Vanamonde put it well - of knowing that 80+% of people did support me, was definitely nice and gave me confidence through my RfA. Also yeah, questions were definitely the most stressful part of RfA for me, and more time for those would not help imo. Galobtter (talk) 06:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose - I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but in the one RFC where this was attempted that I've taken part in this seemed just to increase the drama rather than dialling it down. I think, even if it is obeyed, this just gives a three-day period to people for "debating" the significance of whatever reason they have for opposing without allowing supporters to register any real view, as their views will already be reflected in the nomination. However, I don't think it will be obeyed in practise, rather people will simply leave "comments" that are substitute votes. FOARP (talk) 12:55, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose There seem to be too many procedural problems. Trying to forbid !votes is impractical and impossible as there will be plenty such regardless in places like Wikipediocracy, Discord and elsewhere. And compressing the Q&A into a 3-day period will put more pressure on the candidate to be responsive during that time which might be difficult to schedule. And there will tend to be more questions because that's the main way for enthusiasts to participate initially. And they will tend to be loaded questions. And then, when the floodgates open for actual voting, there will be a big rush to get the groupthink bandwagon rolling. And so on. No – what RfA needs is a secret ballot like Arbcom. That seems to work well without so much intense drama, which is what's wanted. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    I think you're misunderstanding.

    1. You can't vote for an RfA in Wikipediocarcy. Discussions can still contain opinions about the candidate.
    2. The Q&A and discussion are allowed for the entire period, not just the first 3 days.

    I do not see the benefit of secret ballots. These will strip reasons from !votes, which people can be persuaded by. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:55, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    See How the Secret Ballot Changed Democracy. It's very clear from history that open voting results in the problems which we see at RfA and so secret ballots are needed. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:07, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    Could you kindly explain how bribery, corruption and stuff have applied here? Aaron Liu (talk) 23:16, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    RfA obviously has lots of "stuff". This discussion is now part of WP:RFA2024 which explains that "RfA is widely agreed by the community to be toxic and hostile to participants..." Andrew🐉(talk) 08:47, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

    I thought that meant hostility towards the person being nominated? Outright harassing people who oppose seems to be banned.
    In real life, the secret ballot works, also because of another factor: the election is announced a long time before it happens, we know who's up for selection, and most importantly, we have the time to discuss. Without a version of proposal 3 being enacted, a lot of votes can be blinder and misinformed, as there are probably less people participating in the discussion section than voting. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

    No, it means all participants. So, the starting point and reason for this RfC is is that RfA is broken and toxic. We know that a secret ballot will defuse this because it is used for Arbcom elections and that does not have a similar reputation. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:57, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

    The Arbcom election is a traditional election with candidates who are ranked and a ton of votes. It only has Q&A, and not other kinds of discussion. RfA needs quite a bit of discussion, so a secret ballot doesn't seem that good. Doing the scrutineer-"hiring" process for every single RfA would also be quite tedious. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:54, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

    Both processes grant privilege and power over other editors. The key difference is that arbcom elections seem to work without excessive drama and the perception that they are "toxic and hostile". So, RfA should be restructured to resemble the successful Arbcom process and the secret ballot is a key element in this. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:54, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

    And I think that it works for ArbCom because ACEs are very different. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

    And I think that your badgering and bludgeoning of my !vote are a good demonstration of how the process of open voting turns into toxic drama. Insofar as Arbcom elections are different, that's a good thing. We're here to change RfA because it is currently broken while Arbcom elections are not. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:21, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

    IMO if we want to change it to be like ArbCom, we need to change it completely like proposal 13 does to have benefits.

    Anyways, I think we've went off-topic from being about the impact of discussion. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:12, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

14. Weak oppose. I've held off on !voting, because I'm very reluctant to oppose just having a trial of something, to see if it works. And my oppose is a mild one, for that reason. But the comments of Vanamonde93, WereSpielChequers, and FOARP have persuaded me to oppose. In particular, WSC's point about extending the most stressful part while leaving decision-making for a stage where interest sometimes wanes, pushes me to here. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Weak oppose. I initially started posting here since there isn't a formal "neutral" section. I thought I was leaning to support, but wouldn't want to do so unless a few suggestions already mentioned were formally added to the proposal: namely, I think 10 days is far too long, and I like Femke's solution to Vanamonde's issue #3. But in writing this out I've come around to think Vanamonde's issue #2 (echoed by FOARP) is the most important one. I don't see anyone in the Support section saying "I would run for RFA if it were like this", though Bilorv's comment comes closest. -- asilvering (talk) 21:12, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    Add Sdkb's comment to Bilorv's and I'm back to equivocal about it. I do think it's important that the people we keep in mind are the potential candidates, not so much the feelings of other participants (I think Vanamonde said something like this somewhere else). The problem we're trying to fix isn't "RFA makes people upset in general" but "fewer and fewer people are running for RFA, likely due to a perceived toxicity in the process, leading to a dearth of new admins." -- asilvering (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

16. Oppose Maybe this is a failure of imagination on my part, but I fail to see how making an already stressful process longer is going to help. Maybe if after the three days, contributors could only vote without making any form of substantive comment, I could see that being an improvement. But as written this just seems like it's going to prolong the misery put on candidates. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

    Like, this doesn't substantively change the environmental problems that are the cause of RfA toxicity towards the candidate. Editors will still be able to violate WP:CIV and WP:NPA because no-one is willing or able to moderate those violations when they occur. All this is doing is giving three extra days for that same type of vitriolic comment to be made. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

17. Oppose: A longer RfA period will lead to fewer RfA candidates. I honestly don't see how this would lead to any type of benefit. Hey man im josh (talk) 01:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose per above. Overcomplicated and seems like a solution in search of a problem. Yeah RfA could use fixing, but this isn't the solution -Fastily 01:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Oppose per above. Because future RFA candidates definitely need more stress. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 03:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
20. I do not see how adding three days of discussions before the RfA reduces the stress of the process; and I cannot understand how this fixes issues like oppose-badgering either. JavaHurricane 13:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
21. I like the idea in theory, but this just drags out a painful process even further. In practice this will not help and will cause more stress for the person who is nominated. Nemov (talk) 13:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Overly long. 3B is better, but still not ideal. The process shouldn't be extended. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 16:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Prefer 3B. SilkTork (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Oppose extending the length to 10 days. 3B is more suitable (on which I'm neutral). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Oppose I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. I'm persuaded by the discussion that this measure may make things worse. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Discuss what? The lack of votes to respond to? And someone cited this would push the RFA timeline to 10 days. No thanks; 7 days is torture enough. Either a nom gets ready to hop on the coals or not. Steel1943 (talk) 01:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    People will I nvariably leave questions and opinions that can be discussed, as we can already see from how online forums discuss before an election. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

27. Oppose. RFA is already a pressure cooker, no need to extend it. And besides, if someone makes a "general comment" about the candidate's unsuitability, what are we expected to do, just not acknowledge that it's obviously going to turn into an Oppose? This is really just a proposal for a 10-day RFA unless there was onerous and unpopular clerking work done in the first three days (which may even be of questionable utility - RFAs that are clearly doomed are probably aided by being put out of their misery sooner rather than later, so restricting people making "clear NOTNOW" opposes in the first three days just extends it.). SnowFire (talk) 04:20, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    There's also a sub-proposal to have the candidate confirm if they want to continue after discussion. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

28. Oppose longer RfA time is rather cruel to the candidate. Banedon (talk) 05:13, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
29. Oppose adding three more days to an already lengthy process will only increase stress to a candidate, especially if the RfA is not going their way. Neovu79 (talk) 08:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
30. See Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 2. 2008 Me had already made up my mind and intended to oppose Ironholds, regardless; no amount of questions or discussion would have changed my mind. Acalamari 15:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
31. Oppose prolongs the ordeal. It won't make people magically more diplomatic either. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
32. Oppose Per others, as it will make the process more stressful on the candidate when it is already taxing. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
33. Oppose, lengthening RfA is unneeded, imo. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
34. Oppose In general, I think we should shorten RfA rather than extend it. Chetsford (talk) 16:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
35. Oppose. It is sufficient that !voters can change their !vote after seeing subsequent discussion. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:45, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (proposal 3)

1. Neutral. I don't like 10-day RfAs, but the concept of a discussion period before the !vote would reduce stress. Prefer 3b. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 03:41, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Going for neutral for the following factors: The issue is the 10 day RfA. This would not extend the voting period, but would save people saying "I am late to vote an RfA", but given the opposes above concludes that it can cause stress for candidates, while also reducing strikes when people's opinions change. 3b is a better option though, but I can't support or oppose 3a. Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 08:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Neutral. Might help a bit but adds complexity. North8000 (talk) 22:37, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (proposal 3)

• What happens after the 5 RfA/6 month timeframe? Schazjmd (talk) 18:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  It goes back to 7 days with immediate !voting. If the community wants it to continue a new RfC would need to establish that consensus. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• As a note, discussion-first has been tried before, see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 2. Izno (talk) 19:03, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  Two differences in that 2008 RfA is that the discussion phase was closed when the voting phase started, and unlike today's process, there was no limit on how many questions each person can ask. isaacl (talk) 19:09, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  That was one of the four failed RFAs that that candidate has had, so I'm not sure they were the best guinea pig for that experiment. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 20:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  I made only a comment about whether we have tried this before. Any other inferences are your own. ;) Izno (talk) 20:42, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• Should candidates be allowed to opt out and use the regular process, if they prefer?—S Marshall T/C 21:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  Probably yes, but that could lead to an unintended consequence of opposes being cast by voters who are angry at the candidate for not playing along with the experiment. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:09, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  In my opinion, we need to let candidates opt out, or, alternatively, change the proposal from the first five, to the first five who opt in. It also seems to me that we simply don't know how this will affect the percentages for success or failure, and that could leave bureaucrats unsure how to determine consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  If a candidate wants to opt out they already have two ways to do so: go in the next 30 days or wait for 5 RfAs/6 months. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:27, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  I think what's likely to happen is that we'll figure out after the first RfA or two in the trial whether the discussion phase is a boon or hindrance to a candidate's chance of passing with high support. If it turns out to be a hindrance, we might have a lot of trouble getting enough candidates to use it to get meaningful information about how it affects RfA. I understand the reluctance to ask candidates to be guinea pigs on top of an already stressful process, but ultimately for the benefit of the community in the long term we have to test out some reform. Someone will need to go first, and if a candidate really doesn't want to be the one, they can adjust the timing of their RfA accordingly as Barkeep said. Sdkb ^talk 19:48, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• I'm also noticing that some editors are supporting the proposal, saying that they like the way it is a secret ballot, but the proposal as written is not that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  Searching on the word "secret", I'm not seeing any supports saying they like how the proposal is a secret ballot. At the moment, two supports say they think it is a good step towards having a secret ballot in future, and two say they support the proposal even though they do not support a secret ballot. isaacl (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  Lightburst's !vote originally said I support any "secret ballot. That is the only instance I can see, though. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:18, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  Lightburst also seems to believe that this proposal would remove the so-called badgering of opposes, but I see nothing in the proposal to support that perception. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:32, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  I said removing the badgering on the voting page. So it will stop the badgering on the project page. I still do not like having to publicly declare, "Are you now or have you ever been..." I would like to just vote and move on to building the encyclopedia. When I vote here in my town it is drama free because I do not have to tell the whole town who I voted for and then pass their litmus test. Lightburst (talk) 01:39, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  So it will stop the badgering on the project page. No, there is nothing in the proposal to support that conclusion. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 18:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  I have real concerns about secret ballot/anonymous voting myself even as I feel it's the option likely to do be the largest change for positive in appointing adminship that has a reasonable level of community support right now. I think it will push the support %s down considerably - as we saw with the move from public to secret balloting for ArbCom - and I think @Johnuniq's concerns about opening us up to UPE has some validity. So I'm not sure we should adopt it despite its potential benefits. But I think the discussion first system could have merit on its own as an improvement at RfA and think it could be paired with some other mooted changes to RfA - including secret ballot - in ways that would complement each other. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:33, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

  Keeping our current process is more likely to result in UPEs becoming admins than moving to a secret ballot. Our current process does not filter out all bad eggs (Eostrix, Wifione) and has horrible effects on the mental health of true volunteers, so hundreds of qualified editors refuse to run. Perhaps some people would find that acceptable if the process kept out bad eggs, but it demonstrably does not. So "but UPE" does not appear to be an argument against changing things, rather the opposite. —Kusma (talk) 10:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Barkeep49, can you explain a bit more about the support %s decrease re: ArbCom? I think this predates me. -- asilvering (talk) 21:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Asilvering just look at someone like NewYorkBrad. When voting was public here he is getting 97+% support. Where as in 2019 when he ran again he was by far the most popular candidate but got "only" a hair under 80% support. This is also reflected by the drop-off in % support the first year they did secret ballot voting but I'll leave the finding of that to someone else. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:14, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Barkeep49 Hm, I'm not sure that NewYorkBrad's particular example is useful, since that first run is in 2007. Was 2008 the last election to be held without secret votes? I went looking, but I don't see a votes page for that one, just a log. If it's the last non-secret ballot, though, it's hard to say that the secret ballot itself made the %s go down. Here are the 2008 results: [1] and the 2009 (definitely secret ballot) ones: [2]. It's true that there are fewer extremely high % candidates. But there's also much higher voter turnout. Coren is on both, and their vote share increases in the secret ballot. It seems to me that this might reduce the %s for candidates who would otherwise be hitting 90%+ or so, but I'm not sure there's much effect below that. -- asilvering (talk) 01:37, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Find it hard to imagine how this would benefit the candidates. Seems like 10 days of stress instead of 7, especially while it's not yet clear what the Bureaucrats can or are willing to do. Was 2+5 considered? Is there something about the necessity to cast votes for 7 days? I think the real guns won't come out at RFA until the real numbers start to come in, which would be the voting period. The first few days may end up like ORCP. Or they maybe as bad as the typical days of current RFAs but without the comfort of a support percentage, making candidates who would have passed withdraw even before voting begins. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  In past discussions, some participants have expressed a desire to allow for editors who edit once a week to have their views considered towards the consensus outcome. This would require a 7-day minimum period where they can weigh in with their supporting or opposing opinion. isaacl (talk) 05:44, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree with this argument as it views RfA as a Big Deal. The concept of everyone in the community being entitled and accommodated to vote frames it like a presidential election rather than a discussion to establish consensus. Discussions with much wider-ranging community impact on AN and ANI often last a couple of days only: editors often don't know about the discussion until after the fact, but it's still served its purpose of ascertaining consensus through a sample. — Bilorv (talk) 08:40, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  I would agree with Bilorv. Furthermore, by engaging in the pre-!voting discussion, you also participate in the process, so people that edit less are included in the RfA by design. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  Given how dynamic RfA is (not all votes are equal, providing a single diff that makes the candidate look bad has great effect within the first couple of days, not so much in the final hour), this is meaningless in practice. Also, the candidates' mental health is perhaps a bigger issue than the views of a few weekend only contributors. —Kusma (talk) 10:30, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  Note that since RfAs can start on any day of the week, the potential effect is not limited to weekend contributors. isaacl (talk) 18:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I agree, to have a real impact on an RfA outcome diffs have to be dig up within the first few days. I'd be more supportive of a 2 + 5 proposal. Galobtter (talk) 06:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

  Barkeep49, given the above, do you think it would be possible to add a 2+5 proposal as an alternative and see if it receives a more enthusiastic support? I do strongly believe that changes that make the RFAs longer have a lesser chance of being successful. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 13:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

  Ultimately I don't control this RfC, of course, it's the community. That said I am not without thoughts about what 3 extra days could mean, but that for me is why doing this as a trial is important. It would not surprise me if an outcome of the trial is "discussion period first is good, but 10 days is too long" and so it gets permanently adopted as a 2+5. But in the spirit of an experiment I thought changing one variable (discussion period) rather than two (discussion period + !voting length) would yield more informative information. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Per the concerns about prolonging, maybe we should trial both 3+7 and 2+5, per Usedtobecool and Bilorv. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
• What happens if the candidate withdraws before the vote starts? Is the RFA still listed at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship by year and other places? Do they have to put a "2" on a second attempt? Can they request courtesy blanking, or even deletion? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
• The one time I've seen a discussion-first RFC on a contentious topic (the 2018 Daily Mail discussion) the whole thing devolved very quickly into round of "Oh my god HOW DARE YOU stop us from voting!"-style accusations. For better or worse, people come to a discussion with attitudes already formed, and things they want to say. This essentially limits the voting period to the last four days of the RFA or extends the RFA by 3 days, and will lead to people casting not-votes in the discussion as they don't have the time to come back to !vote. I see no sign that discussion would have avoided the FUBARs in recent RFAs - people put down their marker early either way. FOARP (talk) 12:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
• In my opinion, the 2+5 RFC should be in its own subsection instead of mixed in with the current RFC. The way things are signed, it now also looks like Usedtobecool wrote the 3+7 RFC instead of Barkeep49. I'd change it myself, but I think moving Usedtobecool's 50 pings down would mess up the pings and people wouldn't see the second RFC. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:34, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
  • I don't really have much experience with RFCs. My first worry was whether it would be wholly inappropriate procedurally and with respect to identifying a consensus position on the question. Barkeeps's response above suggested to me that it would not be so, though he had other concerns. My priority then was to not taint the RFC, neutrality-wise. I am fine with whatever another editor or a group comes up with to improve upon it. Ultimately, I only care that we determine a best course of action that has some chance of achieving something. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:48, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
  • I wonder if Barkeep unintentionally signed with the wrong number of tildes. Easily fixed, if so. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

    The introduction for RfCs is copied over by bot to various central pages (this one is present on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikipedia proposals). The introduction is a short, neutral statement that ends with a timestamp, which the bot uses to determine the end of the text being copied. (There's a maximum character limit above which it won't copy the statement.) A signature ending in a timestamp will do, but so will a plain timestamp, which some might consider to be a more neutral presentation for those using the central pages. isaacl (talk) 04:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

    Basically Isaacl hits it on the head. Because the RfC statement is designed to be neutral I prefer to launch RfCs with 5 tildes. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I noticed that when I got the ping but like you didn't want to double ping people. I believe it could get moved without Used's signature and then in a seperate edit the signature gets added back in. I believe that wouldn't double ping but wasn't certain enough to actually do it and ultimately it's not the biggest deal in the world. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Tildes ping people, signatures don't. Or, we'd have pings going out every time a talk page is archived edited. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 06:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• In order to encourage editors to run, I'd like to see this implemented in a way that allows those who sense that the !voting phase may not go as well as they'd hoped to bow out gracefully after the discussion phase with as little stigma attached as possible. One way to get at that would be to require candidates to affirmatively assent to proceed to the !voting phase as the discussion phase nears its end; if they do not, the default course of action would be to end the RfA with a neutral (not red) background and a note like This is an archived request for adminship that did not proceed beyond the discussion phase. Sdkb ^talk 19:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, this can definitely be part of it. This would be a sort of midway point between an ORCP and the RfA process itself, but perhaps more likely than ORCP to correctly anticipate the RfA outcome. There is a lot of stigma with candidates withdrawing (or pressure being placed on them to withdraw) and someone could say "thank you for the feedback—I've decided to go away and do X, Y and Z before putting it to a !vote". — Bilorv (talk) 21:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

  This is an excellent idea. -- asilvering (talk) 22:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 3b: Make the first two days discussion-only (trial)

Note I have just added an alternative, proposing a 2+5-day RfA trial instead of the 3+7-day trial originally proposed. Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Pinging people who had commented/!voted already: @Barkeep49, Isaacl, Aaron Liu, Schazmjd, QuicoleJR, JPxG, Ahecht, Enos733, RoySmith, Lepricavark, Seraphimblade, S Marshall, SportingFlyer, NightWolf1223, Mach61, Lightburst, Thebiguglyalien, HouseBlaster, Relativity, Theleekycauldron, SilkTork, 0xDeadbeef, Rhododendrites, Leijurv, Femke, Bilorv, Retswerb, Kusma, Firefly, Serial Number 54129, Szmenderowiecki, Cremastra, AirshipJungleman29, Schierbecker, Voorts, WereSpielChequers, Compassionate727, Ixtal, WaltCip, Bruxton, Soni, MarioGom, Lulfas, Stanistani, Mackensen, and RunningTiger123: Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC) Also, @North8000, Novem Linguae, Lightoil, Lee Vilenski, Yngvadottir, Vanamonde93, Wbm1058, Galobtter, FOARP, Andrew Davidson, Tryptofish, Asilvering, Sideswipe9th, Hey man im josh, Fastily, and Schazjmd: Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

note: this was originally a subsection of the above section. I've moved it out here to match the format of the rest of this RfC :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 3b)

1. Support as this one does not extend the length of the RFA (per concerns expressed by many participants both supporting and opposing the original proposal and discussion in the general comments section). Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support (first choice) - no need to extend it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support (first choice) 2 days for discussion and 5 days for voting seems to be the strictly superior version of the original proposal. It shortens the RFA's voting period as well, which I consider it to be a potential win. Soni (talk) 03:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support (first choice). Bruxton (talk) 03:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support (first choice) Leijurv (talk) 03:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Strong support (first choice). If it's too little time then we can always adjust and extend. We can simply ask how grueling the candidates felt this process was. We don't have infinitely many RfA candidates to choose from in this year of experiments, and this doesn't introduce too many new factors either. Apaprently, my Waterfox browser really hates edit conflicts and basically hung when the edit conflict page appeared. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support (first choice) Lightburst (talk) 03:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Support (first choice) Christ people, live a little. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 03:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Support per my initial !vote. I think this is arguably more similar to the current setup – yes, we're changing the voting window in addition to adding the discussion-only period, but 3+7 changes the overall window. RunningTiger123 (talk) 04:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

10. Support (first choice) per Aaron Liu. Namely, we can ask candidates how the process felt, so I don't see this as losing data.

    The first problem I see this solving is the rote +1 votes at the beginning. But more importantly, I see this as an opportunity for expressing concerns while allowing the candidate to respond to them. That way, there is no pile-on, and nobody feels wedded to a !vote they cast (i.e. you can easily express a concern without outright opposing). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 05:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

11. Support, mildly. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, but I really do want something to be tried in terms of RfA reform (I wasn't too happy about opposing the initial proposal, but the idea of extending RfA and the stress period was untenable for me), and I'm less concerned about additional stress for the candidate now that the total length of the period is the same. Galobtter (talk) 05:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Support - striking my support above. Schierbecker (talk) 05:56, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Support both – both are worth trying, I don't think we need to only pilot one :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Support either; i'm not sure it's worth trying both (one after the other? at the same time?), but it certainly is worth trying something new. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 07:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Support (first choice): Not elongating the process is a big plus for me in terms of stress for candidates. Usually any concerns are expressed in the first 2/3 days, so that this gives the opportunity to respond without pile-on opposes. I'm also happy to try out both. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
16. First choice. NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 09:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Weak Support (second choice) I am not sure about decreasing voting time, but both proposals are worth trying. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Support, as I support the above. We can have a separate discussion on the exact time frame afterwards. Z1720 (talk) 14:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Yup.—S Marshall T/C 14:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Support Either of these options is fine by me. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Works for me, possibly better than 3+7. —Kusma (talk) 17:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Conditional support as second choice only if proposal 3 fails. Sdkb ^talk 19:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Support (first choice) Either this or 3 would be good, this one is preferable as it does not increase the overall length. Pinguinn 🐧 20:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Support per my neutral !vote on 3. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 03:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Support - I like the idea of discussion before the typical driveby voting starts. - jc37 05:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Support for all the same reasons I supported 3a, although this would be a second choice. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE) 21:45, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
27. Excellent idea; first choice (over 3A). --JBL (talk) 22:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
28. Support first choice— don't need to stress valuable contributors out in their RfAs more than needed. ‍ Relativity 02:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
29. Support with 2+5 as first preference and 3+7 as second preference per my comments on proposal 3. — Bilorv (talk) 21:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
30. I have concerns regarding both non-voting proposals; of the two this has less impact and would cause less stress, so this would be the softer option to try, and the more likely to succeed. SilkTork (talk) 00:01, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
31. Support. Definitely worth a shot and could lead to real improvement. —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
32. Support (not a first choice or second choice) worth trying, could see if it helps with the toxicity. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 17:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
33. Support unconditionally whether we go with 3a or 3b. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:54, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
34. Going for support as the previous proposal appears to be too long than the historic. Also, it creates opportunities for people to always decide the best candidates before the voting phase begins given the questions and discussion, and to reduce users striking their votes upon changing their opinions. Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 08:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
35. As proposed by Barkeep49 in proposal 3. First choice over that proposal, though , as extending the length of RfA would potentially make it a less inviting process for candidates. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
36. Support I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. I'm persuaded by the discussion that this measure may make things worse. I am indeed persuaded by this. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
37. Support as first choice versus 3 days (option 3) ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 03:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
38. Support (first choice) Ivan (talk) 07:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
39. Support first choice - I have noticed some discussions have had things come up in the middle of them that could have changed the outcome of the final result. There should be a period for things like this to be brought up, and especially for the candidate to reasonable respond to them. Many people do not check the RfA page after their initial vote and this could encourage more research before a vote is placed. Yoblyblob (Talk) :) 14:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
40. Support with the addendum that this should be implemented with Proposal 89. 2 or 3 days of discussion, then 5 or 4 days of a straight vote. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    I think you meant 8, and I think discussion should still be allowed (at least in the discussion area) during voting. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

41. Support I prefer Barkeep49's idea, but I think this will work fine too. SportingFlyer T·C 19:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
42. Support. I support along with P3a and P13 which are similar (my strongest preference is for P13). Aszx5000 (talk) 20:13, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
43. First choice to Proposal 3a Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:01, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
44. Support, a very reasonable proposal,worth giving a try. Ratnahastin (talk) 02:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
45. Support. This system should give the voter more information to influence their vote before they cast their vote. Smallchief (talk) 20:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
46. Support (equally to 3 - I don' think a longer duration affects the benefit either way) Should allow in-depth discussion but reduce drawn-out bickering, and alleviate the current swingy mechanics. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 06:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
47. Support, seems worth trying. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
48. Support regardless of the exact numbers, trying out a change (in processes, in design, etc) with a defined trial period shouldn't be a big deal. —⁠andrybak (talk) 02:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
49. Support as a first choice, with the same reasoning used in my support vote for proposal 3. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 17:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 3b)

1. Oppose as it makes it harder to tell if the discussion period is useful or not compared to the other factors this introduces. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose. It is unclear to me what problem this is trying to solve. The only change is that voters have to wait to vote, correct? There will still be 7 days of questions and answers? Supports and opposes will still have rationales, correct? If the problem is opposers sometimes have rationales that the community doesn't like and some folks think these opposes aren't being policed enough and this makes all RFAs more toxic, I don't see how this proposal fixes that. I predict this proposal will just create impatience for support voters who are ready to vote but are not yet allowed to, and create a traffic jam of votes on day 3 of the RFA. In fact, it may even decrease RFA total votes because RFA is essentially only open for 5 days instead of 7. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   Novem Linguae, speaking for myself, I wanted to support the original proposal just because everyone says we need to do something, and this is something, but I could not bring myself to it because I see absolutely no potential benefit to making RFA even longer, because my reading is the same, things don't stop at the end of three days; if it is devolving, it will continue to do so the full 10 days. What brings me around to actually wondering that this might make things better is recollection that a discussion-first oppose was aired in a recent candidate's talk page and ended up not making it to the actual RFA, though I will not link it here as it is not a shining example of people coming together. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Weak oppose. I believe users who are active on sporadic doses should be able to vote, and shortening the voting period disenfranchises them. Moreover, there's good reason to think the 7 days of the voting period under the proposed system will be less toxic than normal; most rationales will have already been discussed during the discussion period, and voters will be less likely to switch their positions because of that, lessening the need for persuasion. Mach61 (talk) 06:34, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   As said above, adminship should be no big deal, or at least not much bigger than ANI. I agree with Bilorv's comment below. These sporadic users can also bring up points in discussion to influence votes. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   If it wasn't a big deal we wouldn't have the watchlist notification, and would give out adminship at WP:PERM. Do not confuse aspirations with reality Mach61 (talk) 14:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   WP:NOBIGDEAL is a policy. It's obviously a bigger deal than PERM as abuse would be much more catastrophic, but we're not electing a governor either. I see no reason for wanting everyone to vote. Five days plus arguments gives enough of a sample size. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:54, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Weak oppose There is value in the seven day voting period. In many areas, seven days of discussion is standard. Removing two days of voting may mean that certain people are disenfranchised, because they only have time or ability to participate on particular days. I would rather have a full trial of 3+7 before considering changes to the length of the RfA.
   Secondly, and fundamentally, I don't think the community has a good grasp of why RfA is toxic. Certainly some of that could just be inherent in having 100-200+ editors scrutinize every edit and every interaction. If that is the case, then no reform based on community consensus will solve that issue. If the problem is how discussions devolve, then the only meaningful solution is likely more moderation. But, my two cents is that we need to start by understanding our values and our end goal when evaluating our processes and procedures. To me our values are consensus building and our goal is to have trusted administrators. --Enos733 (talk) 07:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose Seems too intense as the two days would be a vital campaigning period ahead of the formal voting. Candidates would agonise over their answers to every question and anxiety would make it difficult for them to sleep. Supporters would use the discussion to hold election rallies, declaring their support with endorsements which would make a farce of the voting embargo. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose this has the large presumption that the "general discussion" should not count towards determining the overall consensus (only having the enumerated discussion section be used for that purpose as is the general current practice), as such oppose limiting the time that editors can participate in the deciding discussion to only 5 days - this is not an urgent process and should allow for ample opportunity for community input - not all editors are active every day. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I am confused as to the point in the "discussion counts towards consensus" part. Wouldn't that mean that 2+5 gives equal time for community input, as the total time of evaluated input is 7 days either way? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Aaron Liu when looking at results of RFA's in general the community is very focused on the S/(S+O) ratio - and this seems to be reinforcing that the discussion shouldn't count towards the conclusion (otherwise what is the point of splitting it?). This isn't trying to split QA period from feedback period - it is trying to split the feedback in to two classes (Day 1-2 discussion that isn't allowed to have numbered entries, and Day 3-7 discussion that is). — xaosflux ^Talk 10:20, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   From my interpretation, RfAs have almost always never factored in discussion for cases above 75%, and have only factored them in when the ratio is between 60% and 75%. This change would allow the support ratio to better reflect community discussion by virtue of eyes. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

7. Opppose so all this does is prevent some users (who may only use Wikipedia on a single day per week) from being able to cast a !vote. In terms of closing, the discussion is worth as much as a !vote anyway. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:50, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Mild oppose, but let's not get stuck at no consensus closures. Let's just pass at least either of these options, OK? We will see if 3+7 is more stressful, that's why we have trials. But if 2+5 passes instead, it's worth a try too. My personal preference is 3+7 basically per Novem Linguae and Andrew Davidson, but let's just pass anything to see if it works, and not be mired in "no consensus" closures because no proposal will have 2/3 support that is by and large considered the threshold to rough consensus. If this proposal gains more traction, consider this a support. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   That's a bit of a politician's syllogism; there certainly could be an even better idea. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   My point is, if what is proposed for trial is not frivolous or obviously bad, it's worth investigating; otherwise we will never know if it's better. I prefer the 3+7 format, but if ultimately 2+5 prevails, I'm OK with it because the point here is testing if the !voting-free period makes sense and works. As a test, I'm all for it. If it's successful, I will support making it permanent, whether it's 2+5 or 3+7. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

9. Per Novem Linguae. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Weak oppose. I'm reluctant to oppose simply giving something a try. But the more that we discuss these things, and the more that I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the problem really is that qualified candidates don't want to have their every uncharacteristic mistake pored over and amplified, making qualified candidates less inclined to step forward. It's not incivility or personal attacks. It's that normal people occasionally do things that are legitimately things to bring up in RfA opposes. Actual mistakes. And the real issue then becomes whether the mistake was part of a pattern, or was so bad as to be disqualifying – or whether it was a one-off and should not be disqualifying. We can't make rules about this, because such opposes are not inherently disruptive conduct, and the only solution is discussion, and seeing whether or not the oppose rationale gets traction. The kinds of things being proposed here cannot address that; maybe individual editors being convinced not to reflexively pile-on out of laziness to closely evaluate the situation, or out of virtue-signaling, might. I also share, at least to some extent, the concern expressed by others that not everyone can participate seven days a week, and I'm also not persuaded that we can temporally isolate the difficult parts of RfA to just some days of the process. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
11. 'Weak oppose per @Xaosflux. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Per xaosflux and Lee Vilenski. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose I'm not in favor of shortening the voting period. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:07, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Oppose this for the same reason I oppose the 3-day version. Shortening the length from 3 to 2 days resolves none of my concerns. Steel1943 (talk) 01:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Steel1943, to clarify, the three in the first proposal is added to the current seven days; the two in this proposal is taken out of the existing seven. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    ...Then that leaves less days for voting (which I see as a negative), and the "discuss what" concern of mine would still apply. Steel1943 (talk) 02:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Steel1943, yes, it seems to be the concern of most opposes that we'd be reducing the number of voting days. Honestly, I do not know what will happen in the no-vote first days either, but I am willing to try and find out, per my support for 3a. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

15. Oppose same as with proposal 3, longer RfA time is rather cruel to the candidate. Banedon (talk) 05:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Banedon, RFA is not extended. The seven-day RFA's first two days will be no-vote discussions. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    I see. Still opposed then, since if I make a decision now I want to be able to act on it, not show up in the remaining five days to act on it. Banedon (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

16. Oppose for the same reason I opposed 3a -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
17. I agree with myself. Acalamari 15:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose prolongs the ordeal. It won't make people magically more diplomatic either. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    See the replies to Steel1943. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

19. Weak oppose Might help a bit but adds complexity. North8000 (talk) 16:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 4: Prohibit threaded discussion (trial)

Following the trial of the discussion-first RfA (provided the proposal is enacted), a second trial of threaded-discussion RfA will run for six months or 5 Requests for Adminship (RFAs) which are not closed as SNOW or NOTNOW, whichever happens sooner. A RfC to then be set up to see if elements of either or both trials should be made permanent. In the no threaded-discussion RfA trial, the rules and procedures are to be followed normally, except that, other than 'Crats, nobody is allowed to comment below another user's vote or comment. Each user, including the candidate, may address issues or respond to other comments either after their own vote comment, or by creating their own sub-section in the General comments area. SilkTork (talk) 11:33, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 4)

1. I was going to wait until the above Discussion-first trial had concluded before suggesting this, but I think it would be more helpful to set it up now to see if there is traction for the idea, so that if there is traction, the trials can be set up to follow one another, and then we have a RfC to see what, if any, ideas can be taken forward. SilkTork (talk) 11:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support this as well, though I think it would be better for the two trials to run concurrently. The endless bludgeoning of opposes and neutrals has got to stop and this seems like the only way to stop that. NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 13:17, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Something needs to be done to make RfA less toxic, and I think this is a good start. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 14:44, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. This is an interesting option. My initial reaction to this idea was a bit meh, but upon reflection I think this might help a bit and moves us closer to the standard democratic process organisations have for selecting individuals for tasks (which is closed voting with a discussion about the candidate, rather than about a vote). There is a social dynamics when there are two options (support or oppose), which pits people against each other. By moving the discussion to the discussion section, you make that dynamics less prominent. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 15:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support per the idea behind WP:Thank you for your vote. I'd also be fine with this running concurrently with the previous trial. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Consolidating discussion about a given concern will reduce repetition, making it easier for new commenters to join in or for previous commenters to catch up. It will also mitigate the demoralizing effect on candidates from seeing the same criticisms being discussed repeatedly in separate threads. I think there remains social pressure against oppose voters, as they can still be challenged and engaged, and it also makes it easier for multiple challengers to engage. The convenience of the challenged and an initial challenger is traded off for the greater convenience of everyone else following the discussion about a common concern. isaacl (talk) 18:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support. As an implementation procedure, there could be language on the page or in the section to remind editors to respond in the general comments section or the talk page. --Enos733 (talk) 18:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Worth a shot :) I would encourage future RfA candidates to mess with the template on their RfA – if you can add something interesting to your RfA's structure that doesn't impair the community's ability to find consensus, ask for forgiveness, not permission. People have done it before! I wish I'd thought to do so before my second RfA. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Support as a trial: almost anything is worth trying. It's possible that preventing threaded discussion will reduce the overall number of words wasted at RfA, as one could argue applies at various ArbCom pages. RfA has a tendency to create ludicrous overemphasis of minor events or details, completely unrelated to whether the candidate will be a net positive as an admin. I'm not sure whether this would exacerbate or alleviate this but we could find out by testing.
   My concern would be that false information or BLP and civility violations may remain unchallenged under this format, as bureaucrats and oversighters typically refuse to enforce such policies and no-one else feels qualified to (it took six days for a very prominent BLP-violating comment to be removed at a recent RfA). But such things should be challenged with removal rather than badgering anyway. — Bilorv (talk) 23:08, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Weak support, basically per Bilorv and Femke. If the 'crats and oversighters enforce civility and keep BLP-violatey stuff out, this will work well. If they don't, it won't. -- asilvering (talk) 21:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Middling support - I really find the bashing on oppose !votes unproductive and serves to heighten and draw attention to drama rather than reducing it in any way. I'd be happy to see discussions without it. FOARP (talk) 22:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Yup.—S Marshall T/C 08:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Support. I'm going to put this in bold because some people opposing seem to have missed it - this is not shutting down discussion. It's just that I've found discussion about a candidate's suitability can happen in the General Comments area, or the RfA's talk page, or at WT:RFA, or on a user talk page, or (if appropriate at ANI), there are many, many, many areas where discussion is still open and welcome. The only thing that is being shut down is the worst possible place to put it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:54, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Until we can get to a private vote - this should be relegated to the talk page. Lightburst (talk) 22:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Support only if 3/3b passes. Threaded discussion before the !vote. But oppose if neither 3 nor 3b pass. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 03:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Support, this would likely be a good idea for several other forms of discussion. It's stops the endless reply to replies chains that rarely add anything useful to discussions. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Yes, independently of other proposals. Discussion is fine, but direct replies to votes usually lead to unnecessary drama. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Support long threaded discussions make discussions harder to follow, so prohibiting them makes sense. If there is something substantial to discuss, a pointer to the talk page or similar page would work. Banedon (talk) 05:16, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Support - far too much badgering is going on. Deb (talk) 09:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Support (for a trial basis only). Most of the problems at ANI are down to a. 'bad' oppose !votes (ie, uncivil or unsupported accusations); and b. the inevitable badgering of oppose !votes. While this does not deal with the first point (although other measures are on offer that deal with this), this would stop the toxicity of pile-on badgering, which is normally more disruptive than the original uncivil !vote. - SchroCat (talk) 11:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Weak Support I've rarely seen rebuttals and surrebuttals add anything meaningful to an RfA, but it does increase the swirl of tension surrounding it. Chetsford (talk) 16:36, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 4)

1. This just makes the discussion impossible to follow. If replies to votes are outlawed, then voting comments should be restricted to seven letters instead of allowing the posting of out-of-context character assassination diffs without a right to highlight a reply. —Kusma (talk) 14:19, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

   This is the procedure used in ArbCom cases. It works there. SilkTork (talk) 15:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

   This is not at all comparable to an Arbcom case. Voters will not be added as parties whose behaviour is scrutinised and will not be subject to sanctions if they misbehave. —Kusma (talk) 16:03, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

2. I think this will make it easier for people who oppose while not offrring any benefit to candidates. I think the social pressure against opposing is, on the whole, a positive. For me, fixing RfA isn't an ends of its own but a means to the ends of getting more admin. Since I think this gets us farther from that I am oppoosed. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per Barkeep. This will result in an increase in non-substantive opposes for reasons not relevant to the candidate's suitability for adminship. We should not be rewriting our procedures in a way that will primarily protect disruptive editors. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 18:29, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per above. This does much more than consolidating comments; it makes them harder to follow. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:58, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per Aaron and Kusma. Regarding the Arbcom comparison, Arbcom also has much lower participation than RfA. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Agree with Kusma. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:53, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
7. No, this just makes discussions harder to follow, and breaks anyone trying to use discussion subscriptions. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

   Does it break subscriptions? I'm under the impression that since only level-2 headings can be subscribed to, you can't subscribe in the first place. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Aaron Liu thanks for note, so not yet then - but it is being worked on (phab:T275943). — xaosflux ^Talk 11:38, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

   At present the request is to implement subsection-specific subscriptions, though, and not individual numbered items in a list. While I imagine the same underlying implementation can be re-used for lists, I'm not sure the resulting tradeoff of additional markup would be worthwhile given the lesser frequency where subscribing to list items would be a preferable option. isaacl (talk) 18:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

   I've stricken the subsection related part, my primary concern is that I still think it makes following the overall discussion difficult. — xaosflux ^Talk 10:55, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

8. I agree entirely with Kusma. I think the core idea here is a good one: why not prohibited threaded discussion altogether? Any discussion consisting of more than one reply to a bolded !vote must happen on the talk page (or elsewhere). Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
9. I think threaded opposes are what RfA voters perceive as toxicity. But as someone who had a controversial RfA I don't think the endless RfA back and forths matter much to the candidate - the hard part really is having 200+ people scrutinizing you (and every response to every question asked) and many people writing negative things about you (and it seems often, being able to cast aspersions and make personal attacks without anyone doing anything about it), and this doesn't really help with that. In fact I mostly appreciated the people who defended me in the oppose section of my RfA.
   I wish honestly that people removed bad opposes if they are personal attacks/aspersions, rather than endlessly engaging with them, but I don't know if a rule can be made to solve this (other than encouraging more RfA clerking and enforcement of civility norms at RfA). Galobtter (talk) 06:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

   +1. I think many of these proposals, while well-intentioned, are conflating RFA heatedness with candidate stress, and that's not a valid equivalence. If there's a conduct problem with the opposition, we should deal with that directly; and if there's a conduct issue with responses to opposition, we should also deal with that directly. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

10. Let's just focus on implementing one idea at a time. The better is the enemy of the good. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:33, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Per Waltclipper and Vanamonde93. I think this proposal has "an" idea, but it's not sufficiently baked. It does not go far enough to remove threaded discussion (regardless of if those are positive or not) but also risks making following discussions impossible. Soni (talk) 14:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Mainly per Kusma. It might accomplish what it's supposed to accomplish at ArbCom, but it absolutely makes many arb cases impossible for a passerby to follow. In an arbitration case, there are far fewer people talking and most of the discussion is for the sake of an even smaller number of people who have to judge what's said. At RfA, it's in every participant's interest to be able to understand what's being said, and most people aren't following the whole thing closely. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
13. As mentioned above, following a conversation would be near-impossible. This would probably decrease stress on opposers since they'll likely be badgered less but increase stress on the candidates by increasing the number of petty, POINTy, and poorly thought-out opposes. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 19:39, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Maybe something like this could be made to work, but I really believe that we should go in the direction of more discussion, not less. (Yes, I know that may sound strange, in the context of feeling that RfA discussions veer towards unpleasant piling on, as well as there being far too many "optional" questions.) If we want to curtail spurious arguments, we need to give the crats a basis to weigh different comments differently. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose as premature. Let's let the other discussion play out first please -Fastily 01:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Oppose. I feel this RFC is too early. I think it would make sense to use data from the first RFC and data from the first RFC's 5 RFAs to inform our decisions for the second RFC. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Oppose. RfAs should be more discussion and less vote, not the other way around. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 07:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose. If you are willing to make a criticism of a candidate, you ought to be sure enough to stand some criticism yourself. I like to see opposes (and supports) discussed. JMCHutchinson (talk) 07:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

    As I said in my comment above, you can discuss in the General Comments area, or the RFA's talk page, or even the talk page of the editor who opposed. Lots of places to do it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

    While having a separate area where users can comment on other users' votes is better than nothing, it still makes it harder to follow. If I want to get an impression about the candidate by looking at the votes, the replies being alongside the votes can help me see which votes are more relevant/accurate. Animal lover |666| 23:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

19. ArbCom discussions are already in a pretty unweildy format, but at least those have the justification of making it less likely people will go over the word limit. There is no word limit in RfA; all that's happened is making discussion harder to follow. I don't think this would make participants more civil, either. Mach61 (talk) 13:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Oppose Any critique should be able to be rebutted if inaccurate or biased, though ideally not in a badgering way. The candidate themselves should also be able to respond, as seeing how a candidate responds to criticism could be potentially important in judging their temperament. Pinguinn 🐧 20:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Per Kusma. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Strong oppose - it's a discussion. - jc37 05:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Oppose an unthreaded discussion is just !voting without a bold word at the front. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE) 21:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Oppose - that sounds like a bad idea. If someone says "oppose because he is a serial killer", I think everyone would be fine with simply striking or removing that blatant falsehood. But what if someone says "oppose I don't like his attitude because he was mean to me and a bunch of other people"? We need a way that context can be provided. Maybe being "mean" just meant nominating their advertisement articles for deletion. Or maybe the candidate really is mean and some diffs need to be provided. But either way, context needs to be provided. --B (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Oppose - I'm not keen on this format at ArbCom, it results in having to jump around the page in order to follow a conversation. I wouldn't like to see it adopted more widely. WaggersTALK 16:03, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Oppose I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. Any unfair criticism made by a drive-through or intransigent editor will remain on the page unchallenged and influencing other, unless removed by a Crat. This, to me, does not meet the ambitions of the initiatives, though I do understand the drive behind it. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
27. Oppose: I agree with Kusma that this makes the conversation difficult to follow. I also agree with the rationale provided by Barkeep. I think it'll do more harm than good to prohibit threaded discussions. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:09, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
28. Oppose since preventing "threaded discussion" prevents discussion point blank. So, just a voting system, and we cannot respond to votes in the "support, oppose, neutral" sections and can only ask questions to do any type of discussion, and then still are subject to the 2-question limit? No thanks. Unproductive, regardless how toxic some of the threads can get. Allowing the threads is better than the alternative that basically silences participants. Steel1943 (talk) 02:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
29. As others have said, this would make discussion harder to follow. Also would concede - albeit not intentionally - to people who enjoy opposing but whine if their opposition is responded to in any way. Acalamari 04:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
30. Oppose - per preceding two commenters really Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
31. Oppose Most threaded discussion is useful. North8000 (talk) 16:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
32. Oppose Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
33. Oppose. Gut reaction is that this is a terrible idea. Threaded discussion is how discussions work most naturally. Discussion is essential for consensus decision making. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
34. Discussion good! ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:48, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (proposal 4)

1. On the one hand, I agree with Bilorv that almost anything is worth trying, and since it is a non-frivolous idea, I can't oppose it. But the idea itself I think has little possibility of success. RfA is not ArbCom. This proposal does not see any restrictions on how much one can say in discussions, so I imagine there will be something like "Oppose, see diff" and a long tirade about all ills that that candidate allegedly caused.
   It may be a matter of bad taste to reply to that criticism, but the candidate should have that possibility regardless of customs around RfA. When there are 20-25 opposes to handle, it becomes too difficult to manage it in one section, plus, as commenters above said, the flow will be severely impaired. The structure is also incompatible with RfA's aims. It is important in ArbCom because it's easier to police individual users against excesses and it lets ArbCom understand what are the parties', amici and arb positions. RfA is more about discussing the way candidates would handle admin issues and not about the !voters or the positions of power users/accused parties/whatever. Structuring that by editors increases the risk of certain users "stealing the show" when what we should be doing is minimising it and making sure it's about assessing candidates on their merits. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 01:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
2. I would support a ban on threaded discussion under supports/opposes/neutrals, and ask that the discussion take place in a dedicated discussions section or on the RfA talk page. Z1720 (talk) 14:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I would also support a ban on threaded discussion in the voting section only. Votes can be discussed in a discussion section. Might make things potentially worse though as things could get blown out of proportion more. SportingFlyer T·C 19:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   Yes, that matches this proposal: Each user, including the candidate, may address issues or respond to other comments either after their own vote comment, or by creating their own sub-section in the General comments area. isaacl (talk) 00:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

General discussion (proposal 4)

Two quick questions: this will be a 7-day RfA vote with immediate voting but with comments grouped by editor or it will be a ten-day RfA? Secondly, will the candidate be able to reply to a user's remarks in the user's section? Because unlike ArbCom cases, RfAs are dynamic, particularly if the outcome is close, and realistically even if 10% of the usual 200-ish users start their own discussion subsections, replies to each of the users will be very hard to track. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:28, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The intention is that this trial will utilise the usual seven days. If both these proposals are trialled, then the intention is that there would be a discussion on how each went, and the positive aspects utilised permanently, so we could end up with a 10 day RfA without threaded-discussions.

Candidates would comment in their own section. While candidates are currently not discouraged from responding directly to vote comments in their RfA, it is generally regarded as not a good idea. When it is seen that a candidate might benefit from responding to a negative criticism, the usual thing is that someone will write a question inviting the candidate to respond. I would expect that practise to continue, and for candidates to confine themselves to answering questions in the question section. SilkTork (talk) 16:38, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, it may very well be that one change doesn't make much difference but two in conjunction will, so if the discussion-only trial is a success, maybe let's not revert back and just see if adding threaded discussions further improves RfA? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:32, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be acceptable to set this trial up after the RfC following Barkeep's trial. I did consider that initially, but what gave me pause was that people can become RfC weary when it involves the same topic. I think there may be some benefit in having just the one RfC after both trials, rather than having two RfCs - one after each trial. But it could work either way, and people may indicate their preference when they comment. SilkTork (talk) 16:38, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The Spanish Wikipedia does something similar: votes can only have a short comment (15 words max), and all questions to the candidate and extended discussion happen on the talk page. I am still undecided on its effectiveness (after all, there was only one successful RFA in all of 2023), but it's a point to consider, and I have certainly noticed that the discussion focuses more on the candidate than the voters. –FlyingAce^✈hello 16:02, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Let's say that, in my own comment in an RfA of this sort, I want to say something about what another editor has said. If I understand the proposal correctly, I would say that within my own comment, as opposed to saying it in a threaded reply to the other editor. If I think about how this format has worked at WP:AE, where it is also used, it often leads to walls of text that end up being limited when admins enforce a word limit, but it doesn't reduce the back-and-forth sniping. At ArbCom, the format works better because, in part, editors are required to address their comments to Arbs or clerks, not one another, which would not be workable at RfA. Also, both ArbCom and AE use individual sections for each editor, whereas there would have to be a hundred-plus sections if we were to do actual sections at RfA. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Conversation among editors can be held in the general comments section, much like is being done in this discussion. isaacl (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Seems to me these proposals are all too complicated. The principle should be to discuss the candidate first and then vote after the discussion -- not during the discussion.

A sequence of events might be: (1) A nomination and seconds of the candidate to become an administrator followed by a statement by the candidate in which they tell us why they should be an administrator (with a maximum length of, say, 500 words). (2) Discussion of the candidate for, say, 5 days. Commentators may present pro or con evidence in favor of the candidate. "Evidence" is the key word here. You can't just say I don't like this candidate because they were mean to me; you have to present specific examples of said incivility or mistakes. Nor can you just say that the candidate is a good person; you have to present specific examples of what they have done that was good. The candidate and other people may respond, if they wish to address any of the comments. (3) Vote, for say 3 days. Support or oppose only. No comments allowed during the vote.

What that system would do would be to ensure that people have more information about the candidate before the vote begins. It would also encourage the candidate to participate directly in the discussion about their candidacy. Smallchief (talk) 00:14, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I get the concerns about organization. I'm bothered by the arguments that it should be harder to oppose an RfA or that we should maintain a chilling effect on potential opposers. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:47, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 5: Add option for header to support limited-time adminship (trial)

Following the passage of this proposal, candidates will have the option to include a header between Support and Oppose that will read Support adminship for a year. When closing the RfA, bureaucrats are to grant a year-long term of adminship only when there is no consensus to make a candidate an admin indefinitely, but the combined strength of both support sections does achieve consensus. After this has been tested on five RfAs that are not closed as SNOW or NOTNOW – or six months, whichever is sooner – this trial will end. No candidate may use this option twice.

Support (proposal 5)

1. An opportunity to encourage candidates to approach RfA and succeed much more easily. This nearly gained consensus two and a half years ago, but was instead closed as "no consensus" primarily due to objections that the option might become the de facto standard: admins would have to seek a limited adminship or else not get elected. This proposal addresses this in two ways: first, the community has the option to elect a candidate to an indefinite term should they feel that a probationary term is unnecessary; the candidates who pull 99% at RfA aren't gonna get dragged into having to run again in a year. Having a section for each option is a much better system than having to make the candidate choose at the outset, but the candidate does still get to run a traditional RfA if they want to. Second, it's a trial run, so the potential risks are inherently limited. As I've said for the other fine proposals made thus far, this is worth a shot. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:01, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support - it will give editors that we, as a community, are on the fence about a chance to demonstrate that they are suitable admin material. However, I'm not convinced by No candidate may use this option twice - if an admin is rejected narrowly once with this option, I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate for them to run a year later with this option again. BilledMammal (talk) 10:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Sure, but would want to revisit the one-time-limit conditions if this goes past trial (timing and limit things get odd when stretched to indefinite). — xaosflux ^Talk 11:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support it similarly to the 2021 proposal similar to this. I expect some opposes to the proposal will be concerned about the gaming of it. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 11:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Seems good' for !voters who support but are a bit wary. This could lead to vote-splitting making the RfA's more difficult for 'crats to close, but we'll see once the trial ends. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 13:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support if this means the reconfirmation RfA after one year is limited to Support/Oppose, and not that the candidate may opt-in for a "Support for one year" option at their RfA but may never do that on their next try. Because the last sentence of this proposal can be read both ways. I think whether a trial admin is qualified should already be apparent after a year. This is better-worded than the 2021 proposal. Also, bureaucrats will start to be at least somewhat meaningful and not simply rubber stamps. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
7. I don't think this will actually work, but if other RfA regulars do there's no harm in letting them try it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Support for the same reasons we do this for, by my count, two other userrights (NPP and PM, which for disclosure, I went through the trial periods before being granted both). Grant them the right, see how they do, and reevaluate after a certain time. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 03:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
9. I think it would be good to have a trial where candidates can volunteer for a fixed-length term to perform administrative tasks. In a world where the number of choices for online pastimes is increasing, the time between the start and end of being an active contributor is shorter for new editors than before. Getting people to sign up for thankless, tedious administrative work is hard. I think new volunteers might be encouraged by knowing they are only committing to helping out for a fixed period, after which they can resume spending that time on other pursuits. isaacl (talk) 05:05, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Strong support. When we look at an admin candidate we look for their commitment into contributing to the behind-the-scenes parts of Wikipedia. Sometimes candidates get opposes simply for doing not enough work, or more specifically not doing enough work in the areas that they want to work in. This happened for my RfA, and I can imagine it happening to future RfAs quite often. It is perfectly normal for admin candidates to do completely different things after they pass RfA, because the admin tasks are simply different from the non-admin tasks. (I've recently picked up clerking at SPI, something that I did not do for almost a year leading to my RfA) Giving these candidates temporary adminship would give them an opportunity to show that they would be helpful with the tools. It would be helpful for us to have a position that says "maybe not yet for getting the toolset indefinitely, but the candidate definitely has my trust and I don't think they will abuse the tools". Also, since this is a trial, so why not? 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 12:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Support. I was on the fence about this, but IMO the opposition to this so far has not been very convinving. Mach61 (talk) 19:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
12. An RfA that was based on actual track-record would be much, much, much better than the present mess; any process that allows developing a track-record before going through an RfA is good. --JBL (talk) 22:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
13. I've always thought this would be a good idea. How many people have we seen be on their best behavior, then get the bit, then turn into petty tyrants? Sure, nothing is stopping them from turning into petty tyrants after the year is up, but this would be something. --B (talk) 13:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
14. I have concerns about how this could go, but I think it is especially difficult in this proposal to be certain how the change will influence people's behavior. I think a trial is warranted. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 21:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Support per my comments on the similar limited-time adminship proposal of 2021. — Bilorv (talk) 21:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Support I don't see why not. If there's a concern that the candidate needs to go through RfA twice, make the second RfA an automatic pass unless a certain number of editors oppose it. Like, after one year, create the second RfA page and then add "unless 10 editors oppose this within the next seven days, the candidate will automatically become a full administrator." Then add some requirement like "you must oppose this for substantive reasons, you cannot oppose it only because you want to see the full process" or "if you oppose this now, you must also oppose during the full process". Banedon (talk) 05:20, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Support. RoySmith (talk) 23:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Support I believe that this would be a good idea. It would make it possible to use the admin tools for specific tasks. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 5)

1. I am oppose right now for a couple reasons. One is that it will create a two tiers admin: those that are controversial in their RfA (and have a one-year limit) and those that have the full trust right away. I would rather this be implemented for all admin (like Stewards, who have to go through re-confirmation) or not at all (though I do not recommend reconfirmations for admin).

   I also think that this creates more bureaucracy for the community, where after one year the admin will have to go through another RfA to make their one-year limit permanent, in which over 200 editors will comment. I think the community's time is better spent writing articles and making the site better, and the candidate's time is better spent doing admin tasks than defending themselves at a reconfirmation.

   Tagging on to the above, I am scared of this becoming the default for admin, where all admin candidates, even uncontroversial ones, will have this limit placed on them, increasing Wikipedia's bureaucracy.

   Lastly, if an admin has a one-year limit, it might prevent them from making controversial decisions because they do not want to endanger their reconfirmation. I want admin to feel confident in helping out in controversial areas when they are ready, and telling an editor that they will be scrutinised in a year will prevent them from helping. Z1720 (talk) 14:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   No comment on the other concerns, but I find the "community time" argument uncompelling. It's metapedians who self-select their participation in RfA; only the candidate is required to pay attention during the entirety of its duration, and they can control when they want to run. Mach61 (talk) 14:48, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I agree that editors self-select their participation. However, I think it is a determent to the project for over 200 editors to self-select to participate in an initial RfA, and then self-select to participate in a reconfirmation (especially because I know some editors spend hours researching a candidate that could be used to improve the site.) Z1720 (talk) 15:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I mean, I guess my thought on that is that we're looking to encourage more candidates to run anyway – so if we're talking community time, an increase of 5 new candidates per year is probably a bigger time sink (a good one) than the one or two reconfirmation RfAs that stem from them. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

2. I fail to see the point. If I trust someone to have the tools, I trust them to have the tools. If I don't, I don't, be that for an hour or a year. Also at that point, we are asking the candidate to go through RfA twice, and if we're having a hard time getting people to do it even once, I certainly do not see that as an improvement. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 18:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   The unpleasantness of RfA derives ultimately from it being a very high stakes decision being made in the absence of good information. An RfA for a limited term will be less unpleasant than an RfA for an indefinite appointment (because it will be lower stakes); an RfA for a candidate who has already been administrator for a year will be less unpleasant than an RfA for whom there is no track record (because there will be a concrete record to run on). --JBL (talk) 17:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Oppose per Z1720. Admins should feel empowered to take the actions that they deem necessary. An admin who was approved for a 1-year term only would be discouraged from taking any controversial actions knowing that they would come up again at the end of the year. When we elect admins, we elect them with no restrictions on what kinds of actions they can do, up to and including potentially controversial ones. I don't see a reason for that to change, and it certainly shouldn't change in this discussion about RFA. If we want to create a more limited kind of admin role, that's a different kind of discussion altogether. Pinguinn 🐧 20:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Pinguinn: if an admin doesn't want to be held to a time limit, they can run their RfA without that section. I certainly imagine a lot of more headstrong candidates would rather not be held to this, and would simply opt out of the trial. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

4. The part of this I don't like is actually the part about having a separate section. I'd rather see editors given a choice between the existing three options (support, oppose, neutral), and for those who feel this way to explain it as part of their regular comments. However, I could support having the crats be able to decide to grant 1-year adminship in close cases (a little like ArbCom candidates who only get a one-year term), based on a borderline discussion, maybe as an option to be reached during a crat-chat. I also oppose the formulation of only being able to do it once. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose per @Seraphimblade and @Z1720. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose this seems like extra bureaucracy. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:10, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Oppose – Z1720 and Seraphimblade both make very strong points. I particularly agree that 1-year admins may avoid controversial decisions (which are the areas admins should be able to help the most) and that if someone is not trusted with the admin tools, limiting their time with them won't change that (1 year is still plenty of time for "bad" decisions, whatever "bad" means). RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:37, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Oppose - Consider that 1 year is all of only half an Arbcom term! And besides, the limit should be on what tools are given, not on length of service. - jc37 05:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   Consider that 1 year is all of only half an Arbcom term! 1 year is also half a congressional term, 3 times an academic semester, 4/3rds the gestational period of a human being, .... What conclusion do you think should be drawn from this comparison? --JBL (talk) 17:36, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

9. Oppose because it wouldn't really be optional (any candidate not including that header would be get oppose votes for not doing so), and I imagine that most voters would opt to vote for the 1 year option anyway for all but the most well-known candidates. Either make adminship always start with a 1-year probationary period (which I wouldn't necessarily oppose) or don't, but don't pretend that it's optional. --Ahecht (TALK
   PAGE) 21:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Ahecht: We pretend lots of things (that RfA isn't a vote, that interactions on RfA are subject to WP:CIVILITY, etc.) all the time. I think you (the universal you) should vote on the underlying merit of the proposal: if you think this wouldn't really be optional, and you would support/be neutral to/oppose a version where it wasn't optional, you should support/be neutral to/oppose this one, on that basis -- but you shouldn't pretend that a little bit of pretense is more important than the underlying merits.

   (Personally I think your analysis is wrong because you're not thinking about the right groups. The people who get 97% votes will continue to sail through RfA no problem under this proposal. People who face genuine opposition, say who would end up in the 60%-80% range, might be penalized -- but the category of people who would end up in the 60%-80% range and who will never run an RfA under the current system is much larger than the category of people who get 97%. That group of people would be vastly more likely to run for RfA if it were a lower-stakes election.) --JBL (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   I wouldn't necessarily oppose a blanket requirement for provisional adminship, but I wouldn't want a system where super-popular editors get to skip that process (RfA is enough of a popularity contest as it is). --Ahecht (TALK
   PAGE) 18:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

10. Oppose creates a further cumbersome process; probationary period will not reveal anything not already understood, possibly likely to incenctivise limited engagement. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 08:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Oppose. I oppose the idea of temporary adminship because it means the candidate needs to go through RFA twice, which in my opinion would make RFA more toxic by subjecting the candidate to twice as much time at RFA. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose for pretty much the same reasons as Seraphimblade. If someone is sufficiently trustworthy to have the tools for a year, they're trustworthy enough to keep them beyond that - at least until they demonstrate otherwise in which case the tools can be removed by ArbCom whenever that happens. WaggersTALK 16:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose, the solution to RfA toxicity isn't to make people go through two RfAs. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 03:23, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Oppose. This won't improve the atmosphere of RFA, nor encourage candidates, who are discouraged by being at the center of attention and opposition research, and by uncertainty. Adumbrativus (talk) 06:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose not a real solution, would create 2-tiers of admins, we *really* don't need the extra drama. -Fastily 07:15, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Oppose. 08:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Иованъ (talk • contribs) 08:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Oppose I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. I do not believe that people will behave more pleasantly at RfA if adminship is time-constrained, and actually, I think editors would be less likely to undergo the ordeal for something so temporary. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 15:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose I don't mind the idea, especially since admin work shouldn't be a big deal, but I'm not sure I agree with how it would be implemented. SportingFlyer T·C 19:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    @SportingFlyer a 'crat could confirm this, but I believe when you grant somebody the admin user right, you can specify an expiration date, just like you can with any other user right. So that's how you would implement it. RoySmith (talk) 23:23, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    I apologise, I wasn't talking in technical terms - I'm more concerned about creating a second tier of admins than the code behind it. SportingFlyer T·C 23:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

19. oppose I do sorta like the idea, but thinking on how it would be implemented makes for undue bureaucracy and does make me wonder about how an admin would work while on 'trial' Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:21, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Oppose. I don't believe there should be different tiers of admins. The only reason we have admins and not just allow anyone to access the tools is the risk of abuse. Plus, trial admins would just avoid making any choices that might controversial and stick to the safest areas and thus most likely their performance will not be indicative of how they will act after the trial ends. Regards SoWhy 20:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Oppose More complexity and it might make the problem worse. North8000 (talk) 16:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Oppose- interesting idea, but I personally can't see users who I would support for temporary adminship but not long-term, I also want admins who will make hard calls (ie not myself), and hard calls are even harder to make as a 'trial' admin, because the repercussions are unavoidable. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Per above. I want it to be easier and less onerous, but I actually think this makes it harder. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
24. Oppose - unless RfA is made a less stressful experience, requiring new administrators to go through the RfA process twice instead of once it likely to make those interested in admin rights even less interested. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 17:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
25. Oppose This would likely put off new admins from dealing with difficult topic areas, as they may fear not being reconfirmed at the end of their trial period if they (quite rightly) annoy a large group of problematic editors. Number 57 00:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
26. Per Z1720 and Seraphimblade. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (proposal 5)

I have a feeling that this could make it harder for people working under controversial areas or would have a controversial RfA to get the bit without expiry. It is quite possible we'd get more single year admins from otherwise discretionary or less than the cut off, but in the other direction, this could push admins who would otherwise pass to be pushed towards single year. With all that said, what is proposed is a trial, so it would be many times better to see what actually happens than to speculate. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 12:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Then it would work as intended. Candidates who only get adminiship for a year should better avoid controversial areas, since the community did not have full trust in them. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, the provisional administrators will also have relatively low experience (probably very few would be given the bit provisionally more than once, as the one year should help the community understand better if this user should really be an administrator). We want experienced administrators to handle the controversial areas. Animal lover |666| 23:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 6: Provisional adminship via sortition

Following the passage of this RfC the position of "Provisional Admin" will be created, to be selected by sortition at monthly intervals.

Provisional adminship

Provisional admins serve for a period of one year. During this year they may perform any activity a full admin performs, with the exception of enforcing discretionary sanctions or participating as an admin at WP:AE. In addition, full admins are permitted to revert the actions of provisional admins even when they would otherwise be forbidden from doing so by WP:WHEEL.

A provisional admin may at any point elect to go through WP:RfA; should they pass the process they will be permanently granted full adminship. Should they fail their provisional adminship will be revoked.

Provisional adminship may also be revoked at any time by a consensus of full admins at WP:AN, or by WP:ARBCOM.

Selection

Provisional admins are selected by sortition, with an editor who meets the following criteria being drawn once a month by the bureaucrats:

1. At least 10,000 total edits, including at least 5,000 in main space
2. At least 1,000 edits in the past year, including at least 500 in main space
3. Account registered at least three years ago
4. No sanctions within the past five years
5. At least one featured article or three good articles
6. Have never lost adminship under a cloud
7. Have never previously held provisional adminship

Following the passage of this RfC ArbCom may, as a one-time action, unilaterally alter these criteria before the process goes into effect. Future modifications to these criteria would need to be done through standard processes.

Prior to the drawn editor being announced, the bureaucrats shall inform ArbCom of the editors identity. ArbCom may, if they deem it necessary, silently veto the editor, in which case a new drawing shall occur.

A drawn editor may decline provisional adminship, in which case a new drawing shall occur. 10:54, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (Proposal 6)

1. This proposal is bold, but I believe it is worth considering as the sort of drastic action necessary to revamp the admin process:
   1. I believe it will result in us gaining excellent admins we would never have otherwise gained due to them having been unwilling to run for various reasons
   2. I believe that it will simplify the RfA process for those admins who do a good job as a provisional admin; I hope that we will be less critical of candidates who have already demonstrated they are competent with the tools.
   3. I believe it will provide a strong boost to the number of admins; even if only 50% convert from provisional to full that is still an extra six a year, and if sortition is discovered to be functional we can increase the number of editors selected each month.

   There is the risk that an unsuitable editor will gain the tools, but I believe there are sufficient safe guards in this proposal to prevent harm coming from that.

   One concern I anticipate is whether the WMF will accept this process as sufficient for granting admin rights. My hope is that ArbCom's veto will be sufficient to push the process over their line - but I would also hope that editors avoid opposing on that basis, as that decision is out of our hands and it makes little sense to try to guess at what it may be. BilledMammal (talk) 10:54, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Hell yeah this is the type of bold proposal we need. I think the criteria is strict enough. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 11:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Sounds good. The proposal are certainly strict enough, maybe even too stringent, but it's best to err on the side of caution. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 13:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. While the criteria are pretty stringent (the yearly activity criterion is IMHO a bit too much), I absolutely support this idea in general and not only because I may stand to benefit from it in the future (I have 5.5K edits, but two or three years will maybe get me to 10K). I have reservations about criterion 5 because it excludes "technical" editors and those editors who write articles where not much sourcing exists but are notable, so those articles will fail the broadness GA/FA threshold but which otherwise capture the topic pretty well (yeah, and also we don't require perfection, just consistent movement towards betterment). Also, you may create a lot of good articles but still be an arse to others, or you can be an editor doing background stuff who is very helpful but who will not qualify under that criterion. Or you can rescue GAs/FAs from delistment. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't expect content creation (that's what we are for here), but I think we need some flexibility in enforcing criterion 5 in these cases (which will also make bureaucrats actually somewhat relevant). Regardless, it is a brilliant idea and is worth implementing. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. This or any model that doesn't involve unhealthy "public performance reviews." Sortition will make better choices than RFA voters. My support vote should be counted as supporting not just exactly what's proposed but also any similar model, so even with adjustments to the criteria, etc. Levivich (talk) 14:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of oppose voters who say they nevertheless support this idea in principle, and also that much of the opposition is that the criteria are too strict and should be loosened and not the other way around. I'd still support this with looser criteria (not to be confused with loser criteria) along the lines of that suggested by other voters. Levivich (talk) 19:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

6. Weak support: I like the essence of this proposal. I was going for neutral due to concerns about gaming, but criteria #5 should do. I do have a query: Maybe there should be a bit more clarification on what kinds of contributions count as "their" good article. Is it putting it up for review? Writing 50% or so of the page? Aaron Liu (talk) 14:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I also echo Xaosflux's concerns about the technical implementation of selecting a user partially based on whether they have a good article. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

7. I've come across quite a few good editors who would make sensible admins but are remarkably unwilling to stand. The suggested process might help in making this a civic duty, rather like jury service. It would also give greater diversity in the admin pool with better representation of those who are focussed on building the encyclopedia. As the proposed procedure is just one a month and is provisional, the details can be tweaked in the light of experience. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
8. An RfA that was based on actual track-record would be much, much, much better than the present mess; any process that allows developing a track-record before going through an RfA is good. Quibbling about the precise details of the criteria is beside the point. --JBL (talk) 22:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
9. We should explore the possibilities of sortition. It's striking that many of the opposes specifically disliked the narrowing of the field by the FA/GA condition 5. I was relieved that it excluded me but worried that it made sortition harder to automate and opened up too many questions about who to credit for FA/GAs. I guess it was included to make the proposal more acceptable because so many RfA votes cite content creation, but the responses suggest some simpler ruleset might be acceptable for a monthly/quarterly/whatever sortition. After all, though Athenian democracy had problems, I don't remember their routine use of sortition being high on the list. NebY (talk) 19:45, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
10. This already looks doomed, but while I was skeptical at first, I think there are enough checks and enough potential to merit an experiment. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Not a fan of some of the requirements, but happy to support this otherwise. I don't see how much bad can happen - at worst the administrator can always be removed - and "having the community's confidence" is largely irrelevant since ultimately it's only the actions that matter. Only caveat might be to couple this with an easier way to remove rogue administrators. Banedon (talk) 05:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
12. The ancient Greeks considered election a characteristic of an oligarchy and many democratic poleis used sortition. Alaexis_¿question? 14:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Support Straight sortition from any registered user I would oppose. However, this proposal has a number of safeguards, including high participation levels, a track-record of good behavior needed for selection, and the ability for the proposed Provisional Admins to be reverted by other Admins. It is simple and egalitarian. I like it. Chetsford (talk) 01:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (Proposal 6)

1. I don't love the content creation being directly tied to it, and more importantly, WMF Legal said that there has to be some form of vetting process for adminship, so we aren't allowed to do this. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   Surely we should wait for a response from WMF legal before acting like this proposal is certain to be shut down from them? Mach61 (talk) 14:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   This is a myth, don't believe it. Levivich (talk) 14:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I still don't love removing the vetting aspect entirely, especially since the GA/FA process is directly tied to it. I still oppose. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:06, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   For the record I completely respect that. Putting the WMF aside, there are perfectly valid reasons not to be in favor of this proposal. Levivich (talk) 15:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Strong oppose Absolutely not, nope. RfA needs reform, but not this - yes, this will boost adminship numbers and stuff, but this strips the community of the voice to choose whom they deem appropriate to gain adminship or not. Besides, there can be other extenuating factors other than edit count, content creation etc such as communication, knowledge of policy and such that makes users qualified for adminship or not. Not all admin has GAs or FAs - some prefer working with scripts and bots while others focus on copyright. Prodraxis _(talk) 14:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'd disagree with the claim that this strips the community of the voice to choose whom they deem appropriate to gain adminship. If consensus is found for this proposal (and WMF Legal is fine with it), the community has ipso facto voiced whom it considers suitable for the mop (i.e. anyone, or almost anyone, who meets the 7 points enumerated).Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 17:25, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

3. The "safe guards" aren't just insufficient; they're so paper-thin they don't deserve the name. Some of the most problematic admin actions can't "just be reverted" (trivial example: no one can make you unsee deleted content), and the Arbitration Committee's past record in overturning community bans is enough to show they can't be relied on to be the only people vetting potential admins. —Cryptic 14:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Strong Oppose primarily we should not be removing the need for affirmative community support, as is required for contributors that will gain access to restricted functions such as deleted content and soon-to-be ip masking data. Additionally, this seems like it is going to require some sort of lottery commission to run the first component - a process which should have been more clearly defined before trying to vote on it. Furthermore, this seems to require technical development (building a secure lottery management tool) that hasn't been started. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Strong oppose there are some editors who are not the best fit for adminship, and would not support their RfA. Adminship can easily damage the site (deleting the Main Page, blocking admin and editors, etc.) and giving the power to editors so easily could lead to severe damage to our reputation. Z1720 (talk) 15:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   Nit: admins technically can't delete the main page. I see why we need to worry about provisional admins going rogue. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

6. Strong oppose: aside from the many problems laid out above, we should not create a tier-system for admins, as we would end up inflating the standards for regular admins (when we should be lowering them). Also, a large majority of the people who meet those criteria don't want adminship, and have no experience with admin tasks; those who do would likely be successful at RFA anyway. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   I don't think this will raise the standard for adminship, because the community has no ability to make someone a provisional admin. Oppose please wait an unknown and unknowable number of months for the crats to draw your name out of a hat. - really? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   That's a fair point, Pppery, but my concern is more basically about standard inflation. If there are temporary admins via this process, the standard permanent admins are expected to meet will be higher. This is rather similar to why a lot of people oppose further unbundling. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

7. This is unfair to those admins who don't meet the sortition criteria like myself. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Certainly not with criteria 5 being in place; that's nothing at all to do with adminship. One does not need the tools to write articles, nor does the ability to write articles speak to any suitability to be an admin. The remainder of the criteria are insufficient to substitute for actual community review of prospective candidates. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 18:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   Personally, I feel like criteria 5 is not to do with adminship but rather to prevent people from gaming the system to get sortitioned as admin and then wreak havoc across enwiki. It's not like everyone with that amount of edits can be vetted as admin, and creating that content demonstrates a clear understanding of editing policy. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

9. I simply can't support a process that would produce considerable numbers of admins that I (and, I think, much of the rest of the community) would oppose at RfA. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:54, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
10. I've been wondering whether something like this could work, but I think that more thought needs to go into the criteria, and into whether this is a role the bureaucrats should have, before this would be ready for prime time. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
11. On second thought, this would probably be a net negative without formal recall critera. Mach61 (talk) 20:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose not everyone can be an admin, and that's fine. No matter how strict the criteria become you're never going to be able to isolate a hypothetical "admin class" of users of which 100% would be good admins. Besides, not everyone wants to be admin in the first place. Whether a user at RFA is nominated by others or nominates themselves, it's at least proof that they understand the requirements of adminship and want to be one. Pinguinn 🐧 20:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
13. No. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
14. One year is too short a period, the criteria are too stringent, and I don't think selecting people who haven't thought hard about whether they want to commit to the mop is a particularly great way to select new admins. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

    I feel like being short was the point. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:27, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

15. Qualified oppose. The concept of sortition is definitely worth exploring. However, the candidate pool should be identified using other criteria than mere edit count and tenure. It's been stressed again and again that adminship is as much about wiki experience as it is about temperament, communication skills, and technical aptitude. Please come up with better criteria and I may support. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

    @Kashmiri I am confused, wouldn't criteria #5 which is about content creation which has a lot of communication satisfy the skills you've said? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:27, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

    @Aaron Liu: Yeah, #5 is a somewhat different proposal (no sortition). I'm yet to make up my mind about it. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

    Sorry about the confusion, I meant criteria (criterium?) #5 of this proposal, At least one featured article or three good articles. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

    For what it's worth, the singular is criterion, like in mitochondria/mitochondrion. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 01:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

    To me, regular participation in AfD, AN/I, and ARV would be much more relevant than having drafted a GA. We aren't looking for copywriters, are we. Also, 10,000 edits is the minimum threshold for full vetting, not for automatic assignments. I'd make it 20k at least. Finally, candidates for the pool should not perhaps have been part of major controversies or displayed CIV problems. Overall, as I wrote, criteria for the candidate pool need further work IMO. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

16. Sortition seems very promising to me, but not on the terms proposed. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Weak oppose - I think this idea is very interesting and worth discussing more, but I'm not sure there will ever be a form of criteria #5 that I would like. I definitely don't like it in its current form. It favors featured content creators at the expense of other editors who might have more experience in technical or project maintenance areas (which are arguably more important for prospective administrators), or who have created a lot of "good" content but have not gone through any formal featured content process. MaterialsPsych (talk) 23:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose community trust should be a required component of adminship. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:12, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Oppose per Extraordinary Writ, currently oppose vote #9. The concern that's getting raised the most is regarding criteria 5 but folks? If that were removed, I'd be eligible for adminship under this. RFAs have been righteously sunk because of considerations that an algorithm like this simply would not be able to deduce. Someone with my temperament should never qualify for adminship and that's just one of countless things that only human beings, voting at RFA, would be able to suss out. City of Silver 03:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Oppose per lack of vetting, if nothing else. IMO, every admin should have the confidence of the community. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 03:57, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
21. I disagree with drafting editors without prior discussion to see if they are interested in taking on administrative work. It's a thankless role with tedious tasks that makes you a target of criticism. Let's not put editors under this scrutiny unless they've volunteered to do so. isaacl (talk) 04:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Oppose - As above: "Oppose - Consider that 1 year is all of only half an Arbcom term! And besides, the limit should be on what tools are given, not on length of service." And also noting that this does not remove all the ways that an admin can assess behaviour. So this is a no. - jc37 05:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Oppose - moral support for the bold suggestion (and following through on Douglas Adams's assertion that "anyone who is capable of getting themselves made [admin] should on no account be allowed to do the job"), but I just can't see this meeting any sort of standard for community vetting, which is important whether or not WMF legal requires it. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE) 21:56, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Oppose Hello D.R.A.M.A. Regards,--Goldsztajn (talk) 09:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Seems ridiculous. --B (talk) 13:32, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Oppose I see this as going to invite potential gaming. I would be in favor of a "trial admin" program where the community can assess the actions and prospective actions of a trial administrator during an RfA, giving more information for the community to work with at RfA. These actions would not be reverted except when the community decides that the actions fall below what is expected of an administrator, in which case the trial ends. Awesome Aasim 21:07, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
27. Oppose Just because someone doesn't have a FA doesn't mean that they wouldn't make a good admin. Also, a lot of editors that would qualify don't want to be admins. Plus, I don't really see too much point in this, and I don't love that the selection is random when really in adminship we're looking for who's the best at the job. ‍ Relativity 00:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

    From my understanding of the admin bit, that's not so. Administrators are just people who are responsible with what they have, don't get angry, and have good-enough judgement that won't make them an awful role model, which isn't necessarily the absolute bests.

    Just because someone doesn't have a FA doesn't mean that they wouldn't make a good admin.

    But this is sortitioning, not a minimum criteria. Having a bunch of nice articles under the belt would prevent people from gaming this sortitioning criteria and reflects an editor's understanding of our various content guidelines, and hopefully dispute resolution. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

    I have to concur. Good admins are able to apply policies and guidelines appropriately and use discretion as to whether a page should be removed or not, and if unsure, should leave it to other admins to decide. It is about an exercise in judgement not about trying to score points. Awesome Aasim 23:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

28. Oppose There are bits of this I like, but I can't support the "At least one featured article or three good articles" criterion because it goes against WP:OWN. Editors can be involved in improving an article to GA or FA status but I'm not keen on individuals "owning" that achievement at an individual level. We're a team. WaggersTALK 16:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
29. Strong oppose – The requirements are too OPed. Not many people would have an FA and three GAs in their credit, and they would not be blocked/sanctioned for more than two years. IMHO this exceeds users' criterion for adminship. I cannot support this unless this would be simplified. Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 08:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
30. Oppose I'm concerned about the FA/GA requirement. There are plenty of niche areas where a topic is notable but won't ever become featured. Take voiceless labial–uvular plosive (I created it) for example: it has plenty of sources, is definitely notable, but won't ever become featured or good because there simply isn't enough info on it. Also, getting to a GA/FA is a team process, and the credit shouldn't just go to the creator. The other requirements look fine to me though. – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 18:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
31. Oppose, that's just inflating the minimum requirements for adminship even more, and will likely mean the same criteria (one FA, three years of account age, etc.) will end up being applied to any other RfA candidate. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 03:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    This is not going to be the only route. I fail to see how this will become a minimum for normal RfAs. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

32. Oppose Nonsensically high thresholds, I wouldn't even qualify - I've been making less than 1,000 edits a year -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Agreed: edit counts mean nothing and are a poor indicator of competence. You can spend 10 hours writing a GA in 25-50 edits, or go on an AWB spree for an hour and rack up 1,000. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 13:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

33. Oppose Prospective admins should be subject to the scrutiny and approval (or otherwise) of other editors. Sweet6970 (talk) 11:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
34. Oppose Not everyone wants to be an admin. The criteria here assess content creation only. I technically hit the criteria (1k edits per year since 2021; 6 GAs) and have no interest in being an admin. I'd be a terrible one, probably. I'm here to write articles and not wield the mop. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 13:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
35. Very strong oppose I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. The whole point of RfA is community scrutiny of candidates. It is one of the successful elements of RfA. This is baby and bathwater territory. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 15:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
36. Strong oppose There are some people who should just not be admins, period. This provides a loophole. SportingFlyer T·C 19:10, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
37. Strong oppose. Nobody should ever get to be an admin just by earning enough merit badges. RoySmith (talk) 23:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
38. Oppose This doesn't solve any issues at RfA, and opens a loophole for people who otherwise might warrant some scrutiny Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
39. Oppose - I interpret this as choosing admins randomly and with no scrutiny, and my goodness that's a bad idea. Nobody should be an admin if the community does not want them to be. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
40. Oppose Having these things does not guarantee that a user doesn't have serious issues that would disqualify them from adminship. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
41. Oppose. Far, far too complicated. Stifle (talk) 10:49, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
42. Oppose: Interesting proposal, but too random. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 14:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
43. Oppose this is interesting, but I think too complicated to work in practice. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
44. Oppose anything requiring FA/GA requirements.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 00:12, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
45. Oppose There are many long-term editors who have low-level attitude problems and never quite do enough to get sanctioned, but are highly unsuited to being admins. Number 57 01:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
46. Oppose too complicated and not reflecting the role of an admin (which isn't really about admin). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:11, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposal 6)

• Does this suggestion simply mean we have a small section of users (crats) electing users who may or may not want the bit? I can think of at least 20 users who meet the criteria above who aren't interested in the toolset. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:53, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Not quite - the crats don't get to choose the candidates, they randomly select them from the pool of eligible editors. Their role would be comparable to court clerks or jury commissioners in the jury system.

  This proposal would permit editors to reject the bit if their name is drawn, but I would hope that at least some of the twenty you have in mind would, considering that there is no obligation for them to go through a strenuous process or even use the bit, decide to give it a go for a year and see if having it benefits the project. BilledMammal (talk) 12:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• On the topic of whether WMF would accept this, they did release a statement around ten years ago that they'd want a process like RfA. I think this proposal is different from the proposal in that discussion, and a considerable amount of time has passed, so I think we'd need WMF Legal to weigh in again. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 12:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  We already went over this in 2021. It's fine. Levivich (talk) 14:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  {{cite}} please. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Somewhere in WP:RFA2021. (Also this was discussed somewhere in the VPR discussion before everything was moved to this page but I don't know where that's been moved to.) To the broader point, going back to their 2014 statement, if WMF Legal has a problem with admins viewing certain deleted content, they can suppress the deleted content they're worried about. Restricting the admin selection process isn't the only way, or even a good way, to address legal's 2014 concerns (which is as I recall what they acknowledged in 2021, when they said they'd be open to alternatives). As for an even broader point, we shouldn't tolerate WMF Legal putting any constraints on our admin selection process in order to protect WMF from liability. What they're doing is outsourcing WMF liability protection to the community, which is wrong. If there is something that admins selected by this or a similar process shouldn't see, then WMF Legal should use suppression (aka oversight) for that content, as that's what those perms are for -- the "legal" stuff. Admins shouldn't be involved in any of the "legal" stuff, leave that for OSes who signed NDAs and let WMF Legal vet OSes however they want. Admins are here to serve the community not the WMF. Levivich (talk) 15:01, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Hmmm. Interesting idea, but I'm not quite on board with criteria #5. This seems to exclude "content creators" who, for one reason or another, have not or choose not to participate in featured content processes, even if they have contributed to a lot of content creation in other ways. Its seems to heavily favor certain types of editors over others. I think I can understand (or at least attempt to venture an educated guess about) the reasoning behind it, but I'd have to think about what other good alternatives there could be to this. MaterialsPsych (talk) 13:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Fascinating idea. Do we know or can we find out how many meet conditions 1 to 4 (I'm guessing it could be as low as 1,000)? That seems amenable to processing similar to the X-tools edit-counts analysis. Condition 5 doesn't, unless it applied only to page creators even if they did little to bring an article to GA/FA status and not to those who did substantial work on it. #6 would also require some assessment as to whether the bit was given up under a cloud. The crats may not eagerly take up either burden; I imagine they'd accept the output of a verified automatic process applying 1-4 and 7, might be persuaded to then evaluate 6, but wouldn't want to assess 5. NebY (talk) 14:02, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Would it make sense to add a minimum number of non-semi-automated edits? For example, "8. Must have at least 3,000 mainspace edits without using semiautomated tools such as Autowikibrowser or Huggle". Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 16:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  3000 is way too low IMO but I agree with the sentiment to show proper content creation experience. _Dial^mayo 18:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Shouldn't the 'crats also voice some kind of opinion, in addition to arbcom, since they'll be among the ones actually implementing this (assuming it gains consensus)? Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 23:53, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• I think any sortition proposal using a pool delineated by objective criteria like edit count is going to be a non-starter: the necessary qualities for a good administrator (e.g., temperament, familiarity with policies and processes) are too difficult to quantify, which reintroduces the need for vetting. However, I wonder if there isn't a relatively simple way to draw up an acceptable pool subjectively; for example, existing administrators could add promising editors to a list somewhere, and we could periodically sortition from that. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  There's Wikipedia:Administrators without tools, though it's informal Aaron Liu (talk) 00:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• Can someone with a bit more technical know-how than me please generate a list of who would currently meet those criteria? I'm guessing it's very small. Bonus point if you can tell us how well these criteria would predict someone passing an RfA over the last several years. I imagine someone who meets these is almost certain to pass. Ajpolino (talk) 02:12, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe try WP:QUARRY? Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 02:14, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  A partial algorithm could probably involve scrolling down the category of featured articles, identity the creator, and see if they meet the rest of the criteria. I'd expect there to be quite a bit. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:52, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• I don't know why the first stage mentions crats, it looks more like a bot process where arbcom then get the chance to veto. You could do something similar where the crats get to vet the candidate instead of arbcom, but I think we'd need to give the community the chance to tweak the criteria. In particular, if the candidate has been active in deletion discussions/nominations they need to show they are broadly inline with community consensus. ϢereSpielChequers 07:07, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
•  Comment: I started an alternate proposal below. Awesome Aasim 21:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
• In the past I've expressed that even if we selected sysops at random the majority would do just fine. I still think that's true even given substantial increases in the complexity of procedures over time, and I like that this is on the table. Coming up with good objective measures of readiness is hard. No one actually has comprehensive knowledge in employing all the tools in every possible circumstance of use. Perhaps a methodology that allows for meeting x number of y criteria would help. The big issue is that the key features the community is looking for in a prospective sysop are personality traits that are difficult to measure. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 06:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 6b: Trial adminship

Proposal: If there is more than 60% support at RfA after three days from the start of voting and at least three admins willing to mentor an incoming admin, then the editor can get trial adminship. As a trial admin, they will get to participate in administrator activities and demonstrate that they have the technical expertise and understanding of policy to keep the tools. Trial adminship could last (extend the RfA) for up to three months (or some other arbitrary maximum), but can be as short as 3-14 days, depending on the level of community support and the finding of consensus by bureaucrats after the initial 7-day period; if there is no consensus above the passing mark but no major objections then a trial might be appropriate (added on 00:43, 23 February 2024 (UTC)). If a bureaucrat closes an RfA as "unsuccessful", if the candidate withdraws, if community support drops below 50%, or if the number of mentoring admins drops below 3, the trial ends as unsuccessful. On the other hand, if a bureaucrat closes an RfA as "successful" the trial ends with promotion to full-time adminship. Reverts of trial administrative actions by mentors would not count as wheel-warring, and reverts of trial administrative actions clearly not in policy does not count either. Awesome Aasim 21:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (Proposal 6b)

1. Support as proposer. I like the spirit of 6, the idea of giving adminship to editors who would most benefit the project from it, but not the actual implementation. We require ArbCom to remove adminship, so we should be certain of a specific prospective admin's capabilities and deficiencies within policies. Trial adminship will also help get prospective admins to better understand the tools and applications within policies and community expectations, helping them learn more about core administrative policies and best practices. It would either turn skeptics in favor or turn supports into "strong oppose" depending on how they act. Awesome Aasim 21:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
2. This will need to have a lot more details filled in, but I'd like to encourage the possibility. The three mentors (and I prefer three to just one, because there should be a critical mass of admins who are willing to say that the candidate has potential) should not include the noms. I'm also not comfortable with keeping the RfA "open" while the trial is going on, so I think the RfA should be placed "on hold" with no further !voting or commenting, until the end of the trial. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Maybe one of the mentors should be a bureaucrat not involved in the nomination? Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat only has a small number of users. On the other hand there are nearly one thousand admins. Awesome Aasim 23:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   That sounds like too much work for the çrats. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I think having 60% of supports is enough editors that think the candidate has potential. Not sure why it has to be admins or why 3 would be a critical mass. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Support in principle per Tryptofish. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
4. I think this would be a nice addition, but the details would have to be discussed later. I don't think three admins are necessary, one or two should suffice; a bit curious on the aspect about what doesn't count as wheel-warring. Would it be a bit better if it was expanded to include any admin? But I would like to see this proposal implemented either way, and the details are just my preference. I think this is a good way for accepting people that might not make it over the finish line. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 14:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I kind of think as a "trial" as a way to see whether they would be responsible with the tools or not. Mentorship would entail providing feedback on administrative actions so they can improve for the better. But there is also this saying, too many cooks spoil the broth, so it should not be every admin becomes a mentor. If someone happens to be a bad mentor so that the trial admin does something ridiculous, then it would be indicative of a mentor's poor understanding of policy, not the trial admin.

   I also misread wheel warring a little as well. From my understanding, wheel warring occurs when an administrator action is reinstated after being reverted. Having mentors exempt from the wheel warring policy would allow trial admins under the mentorship to develop a better understanding of use of the tools as it applies to the English Wikipedia.

   As an example, let's suppose that a trial admin misreads an XfD discussion as delete and deletes a page. The mentor would in this case be able to undelete the page and unclose the discussion to allow the trial admin to try again, without going to deletion review. In this case the mentor could also close the discussion themselves with the appropriate action. If the mentors believe the decision is correct then they would not revert it and it would then be up to sending it to deletion review to determine whether there was poor judgement that the mentors might have overlooked.

   This is the point of a trial - the trial admin learns, and the community develops an idea about the trial admin's strengths and weaknesses with the tools and watches them change (or not). It is like getting the learner's permit before getting a full driving license. Awesome Aasim 23:47, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

5. Sounds fairly reasonable to me, but let's try it on a trial basis only. Also, I suspect that first-time candidates may request RfA explicitly for a trial period to play with the tools a little, so if that job is supervised, I don't see a problem. Maybe the mop is not what they want, which is OK. But you don't know unless you try. Also, re oppose 2: trust is what you earn. If you expect everyone to get 75%+ (or even 65%) on their first try, without much possibility to demonstrate maturity other than by editing history (and as I said in one of the !votes, you can be a good editor but an arse of a person), then we won't get many new admins. A successful supervised trial and vouching by experienced admins should be guarantee enough that that person deserves the tools. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support I think I would be more interested in adminship if I could get a trial run. SportingFlyer T·C 19:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (Proposal 6b)

1. Oppose, too cumbersome; also disenfranchises community review by making changes after only 72 hours. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:37, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'm not sure what "making changes after only 72 hours" means. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Am I reading this wrong that with (1/0/0) after 3 days of a RFA - so long as 3 admins sign up as some sort of mentor - you'd want us to make someone an admin on the spot? Not giving the community at large to have more time for input prior to this change? — xaosflux ^Talk 23:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Ah, I read it wrong. But I'd doubt that an RfA would have 1/0/0 after 3 days, though the "close as unsuccessful" part is confusing and I do see your point in what would normally be a 'crat consensus in promotion being overridden. I think "can be as short as 3-14 days, depending on the level of community support and the finding of consensus" was supposed to address that, though it needs to have a more specific method of determination. @Awesome Aasim Perhaps a clarification would be needed? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I added something for clarification above regarding the finding of consensus. Awesome Aasim 00:43, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Thanks! Having a bureaucrat closure override the trial still feels weird, maybe strike If a bureaucrat closes an RfA as "unsuccessful"? Also, there's a gap between 60% and 50% in the proposal. I'd suggest changing "50%" to '60%", since below that, people probably wouldn't be comfortable with a trial adminship. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:23, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

2. If the community doesn't trust someone to be a full admin at once, they shouldn't be an admin at all. ‍ Relativity 00:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Trust is not there by default; it's earned. And the easiest way to do that is for one to demonstrate that they can apply Wikipedia policies with the tools. It is a worthwhile risk for the community for the period of the trial. That is why it is called a "trial". Awesome Aasim 00:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Oppose per Xaosflux. Sdkb ^talk 04:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
4. This seems very convoluted, and at any rate I'm opposed to trial adminship on principle. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
5. This seems rather impractical and complicated to me. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose as a inferior version of proposal 5 (which I also opposed) -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Oppose I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. I do not believe that people will behave more pleasantly at RfA if adminship is time-constrained, and actually, I think editors would be less likely to undergo the ordeal for something so temporary. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 15:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Oppose - This seems premised on a change that happens after three days. The most obvious such case would be if some especially problematic behavior comes to light that turns the tide, and that's not the sort of thing we should circumvent. Sometimes the reasons aren't so compelling, but still, I'm not so sure this is the best of the proposed experiments. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Oppose partly because it's too complicated and partly because most of the interesting things usually happen near the end of an RfA so making a decision after 3 days seems inadvisable. RoySmith (talk) 23:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose - could be very easily gamed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Oppose - too much overhead. The issue of RFA commenters wanting prospective admins to demonstrate proficiency with tools they've never seen is a problem with our current process, but giving inexperienced users free run with the tools is not a good solution to that problem on English Wikipedia. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose It's not actually that hard to demonstrate one's proficiency as an editor without having admin tools. One can be an admin in all but name simply by using normal Wikipedia processes that ask admins to do the stuff that needs tools. So, I don't think a "trial period" would at all be necessary to demonstrate one's aptitude. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose. Same reason as with proposal #5. Regards SoWhy 20:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Weak Oppose In general, I like the idea, I just believe it would be bureaucratically cumbersome. Chetsford (talk) 16:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
15. Complicated. Seems to require a lot from all parties involved, and I'm not sure it helps? ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
16. Oppose this seems complicated and also would need some work IMO. Would the administrators who offer to mentor need to be independent? Could they be the same users who are their nominators at RfA? Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 17:15, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (Proposal 6b)

1. I don't hate trial adminship, but the process here looks fairly nonideal. I'd prefer an arrangement where there are some objective requirements (like minimum of 1000 edits), and anyone who meets those requirements can simply requests the tools to become a trial admin. Banedon (talk) 05:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   Hmm, that sounds like a good idea provided with stricter criteria like those from proposal 6. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   The problem with "objective requirements" is that as soon as you say what they are, they become gameable (basically this is Goodhart's law). This already happens around WP:XC, where it creates a drain on administrative time (there have been several long threads concerning edge cases at WP:AN this year, but I would guess that doesn't capture the full extent) even though extended-confirmed status is barely worth the trouble of gaming; it would be much worse around a status that came with actual power. --JBL (talk) 18:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   Right, but you could set the requirements to be significantly higher than the requirements you actually care about. E.g. if you want to see 500 edits before becoming a trial admin, then ask for 2000 edits. Still technically gameable, but even if gamed the base requirement would be satisfied. Banedon (talk) 03:35, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Banedon: The problem is that no objective numerical criteria are the requirements [we] actually care about, they are just proxies. No one actually cares about the number of edits; rather, "has made a bunch of edits" is an easy-to-measure proxy for "has some understanding of and respect for the community and its policies". As soon as there is an explicit criterion for adminship in terms of numerical proxies, it will lead to a situation where some people attempt to reach those numerical targets without any interest in achieving understanding of and respect for the community and its policies. --JBL (talk) 21:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   I don't see why that's a problem. Just pick something. If someone cares enough to try to game it, so be it, make them a trial admin and recall if things go south. Banedon (talk) 02:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   Making GAs and FAs is technically gameable but doing so would be actually beneficial to the project. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:31, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   This is naive. Right now, there is very little benefit to writing GAs beyond a bit of pride (experiment: try explaining to someone who doesn't edit Wikipedia how the GA process works and see how much they care), so very few people try to game it, so writing GAs is (with occasional notable exceptions) a sign of understanding WP's policies. As soon as you change that framework so that there are other strong reasons to want to write GAs, people will experiment with all sorts of ways to get things through the GA process. Precisely this process plays out in academia in peer review manipulation and other forms of academic dishonesty. --JBL (talk) 21:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   The benefit of writing GAs is that the encyclopedia becomes much better. If peer review manipulation happens in the GA review process, a.k.a. socking, and it goes unnoticed through 3 of these, then there is an IMO equal chance of the candidate getting adminship hrough normal means (that'll also be manipulated) than that of random selection from this pool Aaron Liu (talk) 22:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposal 6b)

I feel like this should be under 5, which it is more closely related to.
I'm also not sure about the "3 mentors" requirement. What would mentoring be defined as to make it unsuccessful when they stop? Do we really need that many? I feel like 1 supervisor would be enough. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Mentors would provide guidance and support regarding the use of admin tools. They would ideally be independent so one can't just ask specific admins for mentorship (WP:FORUMSHOPPING) would apply. If some egregious piece of evidence comes up, then it would be likely that the mentors supporting the trial would withdraw support. Awesome Aasim 22:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

1. Can't normal asking the help desk, the AN, any other admin, or the one mentor they have suffice?
2. I was intrigued about this:

if the number of mentoring admins drops below 3, the trial ends as unsuccessful

How exactly would the number of mentoring admins drop mid-trial? Aaron Liu (talk) 23:22, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I think asking on forums watched by a large number of admins or at RfA should be fine. Awesome Aasim 23:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, so just 1 mentor should be enough. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

For number 2, mentoring can stop because a mentor was desysopped voluntarily or involuntarily, or because the mentor feels as if the candidate will not be a good admin. Awesome Aasim 02:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Would the three (or one, as suggested by Aaron Liu) admins be independent of the noms? If some particularly egregious piece of evidence comes up during an RfA, the noms will have a harder time admitting they were wrong than the typical supporter, and will thus be more likely to offer themselves as mentors even when the candidate isn't qualified. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 22:18, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

• Would a candidate who ends up with a trial have to RFA a second time to become a full admin? –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:49, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

  Aasim seems to be suggesting that the RfA remain unclosed during the trial. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:23, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Most mentorships I have seen on English Wikipedia (*) have been very hands off: the mentor waited for questions to be asked, and often seemed to be answering them in a detached manner, without looking into details of the specific situation. I think for this proposal to be effective, the expectations of admin mentorship need to be set more clearly, and it would help if we knew if there were any people willing to meet those expectations. (*) Note I am not referring to mentorships in the sense of the new user mentor feature that was deployed in recent years. isaacl (talk) 00:01, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 7: Threaded General Comments

Following this RfC, the General Comments section would become a threaded discussion

Threaded discussion

So, maybe a bit minor, but I do find the general comments section to be a bit weird. We have a discussion, which is almost always bulleted. These are almost always places to comment on either other people's !votes, individual questions or functionary issues with the RfC. Items that get too long get moved to the talk page.

I have seen users complaining about the talk page not being taken into account when closing (I certainly read it, but I can see why people have this reservation). My thoughts, use level 3 headers to thread the discussions in such a way to allow people to discuss items in a more controlled way. This would also run in parralel with deprecating replying to individual !votes. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 7)

1. Support, I guess? I don't think it really matters, but... Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 04:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Ehhh, not sure where i should put this, but the proposal to add a simple edit notice to encourage section headings would be enough, without any actual rule changes. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:37, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 13:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 7)

1. Oppose. If someone clerking an RFA takes issue with a general comments section's lack of tidiness, they're free to clean it up as they see fit. I'm not sure why the proposer, a bureaucrat, would be hesitant to do this. City of Silver 00:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. The restriction from replying to individual votes puts me here. We have a sleuth of editors who can determine when a vote discussion thread gets out of hand, and wholesale preventing discussion in this manner both silences the possibly-valid opinions and discourages the community participation aspect of Wikipedia itself. Steel1943 (talk) 13:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Not seeing how this would improve RfA. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (proposal 7)

1. Doesn't seem like this changes anything substantial. Banedon (talk) 05:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

General discussion (proposal 7)

• Threaded means "sorted" according to what? By topics, users, timestamps? There is no technical problem preventing discussions to be threaded, and I see nothing that prohibits threaded discussions by topic (which I assume is what this proposal is about). I think it can be done spontaneously without asking for special permission, just nobody cared enough so far. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:48, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Huh? @Lee Vilenski: would you perhaps make a mock up what this is trying to achieve (Perhaps reformat an old RFA GD section on a sandbox for demonstration). The GD is already a h5 so I don't think putting h3 sections in to it is a great idea. Regarding the talk page, conceptually I prefer the talk page be reserved for meta-issues (admin/crat reqeusts, discussion about contributors or their statements, etc). — xaosflux ^Talk 15:02, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, sorry, this read a bit more obvious to me when I wrote it than how it came out. I hadn't realised it was level 5 headers, which is a bit of a shame. I have, however, moved some comments to User:Lee Vilenski/sandbox for the jist of the idea. The thing about the general comments is that they are often just a series of non-related comments about the RfA. I'd rather a discussion style, where we'd have a location to hold discussions about other people's !votes. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  That helps some and may not need any rule changes - perhaps just encourage discussion creators to start h6 sections? — xaosflux ^Talk 19:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Sure. I don't think we need any rules to be changed, but as we are looking for proposals, it's a good opertunity to gauge opinion. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Oh for sure, if that is what you are going after, this can be about if that's a good idea - and perhaps do it with a comment on the preload. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:50, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• I have no idea what this is asking to change. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• I'm with Pppery here, threads are started in the general discussion area all the time, I've started some of them myself. If you are proposing that back-and-forths get moved to the general discussion area instead of the talk page by default that needs to be made more clear. sub-sectioning within the general comments is unusual, perhaps because it requires h6 headers, but there's no prohibition against it and I'm not sure it adds much though I can't say I'm opposed to encouraging their use if people find them helpful. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 05:58, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 8: Straight vote

Following the trial of the discussion-first RfA (provided the proposal is enacted), a second trial will run for six months or 5 Requests for Adminship (RFAs) which are not closed as SNOW or NOTNOW, whichever happens sooner. During the trial, the main RfA page will consist exclusively of a numbered "support" and "oppose" section. The only thing participants will be allowed to type in those sections is their signature. If a candidate receives 65% of the vote, they are automatically given adminship, and there will be no bureaucrat chats. The talk page of the RfA may be used for any relevant discussion. 00:52, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 8)

1. I found it strange that previous proposals for this were shot down due to concerns about SecurePoll, when there's no reason it would need to be used at all. This low-tech implementation would work just as well. Mach61 (talk) 00:52, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   I realize it's probably worth attaching a proper rationale. So, in no particular order;

   • Democratic systems are already successful in practice on other WMF projects
   • Direct democracy has strong, empircially backed benifits for large discussions (like RfA)
   • It will be easier to moderate discussions, as those who do so don't need to worry about affecting the vote count.
   • Total discussion will decrease, as voters will not feel the need to add rationales indicating their agreement with one already stated (no "Per x" votes), and, as participants will not see rationales on the same screen they vote, they will be less likely to argue or even be aware of what they see as faulty rationales.

   Mach61 (talk) 14:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   Direct democracy has strong, empircially backed benifits for large discussions (like RfA)

   That has a catch: the probability of people voting for the "correct" option. Without discussion and informed opinions, the chance of that can drastically decrease.
   Attaching rationales to votes is still direct democracy, and allows for discussion.

   Total discussion will decrease

   Per above, I don't see how that is a win. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:46, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   It's a win because it's less stressful on one aspect for the candidate (seeing themselves heavily scrutinized in public). I'm not saying there are no drawbacks for the candidate if this is tried, but I think they will be outweighed by this and other benifits. Mach61 (talk) 14:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   Unfortunately, I see it somewhat as a necessary evil to prioritize ensuring that the candidate is good to a degree over their well-being. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Seems harmless and worth a shot, I'd support trying this out. As I understand it, this proposal is the same as the current system, except with all discussion moved to the talk page. I find threaded discussions in the general comments section at the bottom of RFAs and on their talk pages to be easier to follow than back-and-forths in the support and oppose sections. So maybe discussions will be easier to follow, and perhaps improve, if they were all threaded discussion in one place on the talk page. I don't really see a downside to trying it out. RFA crat chats are so rare (and RFA crat chat failures even more rare) that if they were eliminated and the threshold lowered to 65%, it would make no practical difference whatsoever to the wiki. I'm not going to name names but think about it and I think you'll agree: we've had more demonstrable admin failures who got 99% support than who got 65-75%, at least while I've been here. Levivich (talk) 02:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Forcing opposers to spell their out their reasons for opposing is what causes the most trouble. The support !votes are often quite perfunctory or formulaic and it is quite inequitable that opposition is penalised and pilloried. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   IMO opposing without a reason would cause more trouble and confusion, as there's no discussion or persuasion without arguments. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   Arguments are rarely persuasive. Mostly what you get is bludgeoning, bullying and drama. No thanks. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:56, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'm talking about the arguments for the oppose. As opposes are usually the minority, opposes do need a rationale so others might share that opinion and the candidate would understand what they can do to earn approval. Having an oppose without a rationale anywhere is not going to help anyone. There's a reason people don't leave blank opposes, even though there does not seem to be any policy forbidding them. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   There's a reason that people don't leave any kind of oppose and it's that they know that there will be reprisals. The intimidation factor is so huge that there's a big difference between Arbcom elections and RfA. You have exactly the same sort of candidates but, in the process with the secret ballot, opposition is common whereas, at RfA, you see the one-sided voting found in nasty dictatorships. It's disgraceful. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   People leave opposes. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Aaron Liu doesn't leave opposes as, so far as I can tell, they have never participated in an RfA. And I don't leave opposes. I used to but haven't done so for over five years as I got tired of the harassment and accusations that I was responsible for the toxic atmosphere. One person who used to make those accusations was Kudpung. They made plenty of opposes back then but not any more either. I know a lot about this because I'm big on evidence and compiled data. What was especially telling was seeing that a prominent member of the community often made supports but never opposed. This was clearly the way to get ahead as they have prospered while Kudpung was desysopped and their last edit was to blank their RfA crieria as not needed. So, it's quite clear that voter suppression is happening because we don't have a secret ballot. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:18, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'll admit that I am not qualified to give a concrete assessment of what toxicity there exists towards opposes. However, the rationales of many of your opposes (no offense) don't inspire my confidence in your assessment either.
   Regarding Kudpung, I struggle to find an oppose where he was badgered on. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Aaron Liu keeps talking like he knows it all but he has been editing for less than two years and has never attended an RfA. This doesn't jibe and at RfA, I would oppose if something like that didn't seem right. That's because admin rights unlock most doors, are granted for life and so there are lots of bad actors who are eager to acquire them. So, for example, I opposed the RfAs for both WifiOne and their sockpuppet, Lourdes. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   You weren't bashed for opposing Wifione, and your oppose against Lourdes was for something they've never been warned before about. I don't see why doing busywork that one thought was only helpful would be a flag, especially since most admin duties involve maintenance work.
   Also, to reduce confusion, I'd like to make a formal statement:

   All of my views are based on my dilettante interpretation of the current state of RfA, having looked over a few. I have not participated in any RfA, and do not claim to have a comprehensive understanding of its toxicity. I make all of my opinions as an amateur observer, and I'd welcome evidence proving my analyses to the contrary.

   Aaron Liu (talk) 22:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   I got so much "bashing" for opposing Lourdes that it was moved to the talk page. We can now see that Lourdes was padding their edit count with scripted busywork -- exactly the sort of thing that a bad actor will do when running a sockpuppet. This was a valid issue but the mob didn't want to hear it and there was a flood of vituperative personal attacks on me. A secret ballot is needed to protect such good faith opposition. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   A lot of admin and non-admin maintenance actions pad the edit count. At the time, Lourdes was doing what they thought were maintenance actions, which are normally, for whatever motives. Just that they did these tasks, which were unknowingly against policy, (nor do I see any evidence that Wifione did, for that matter) doesn't seem to constitute a very valid reason to oppose. Plus, your credibility had been hampered by what others have regarded as crying wolf. Having a flood seems normal.
   If you can find opposes that aren't from people regarded by noticeboards as controversial and have been bashed on a lot, I'd welcome it. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   My oppose was carefully researched and considered. What caused all the drama was that it was the first oppose when there were 101 supports. The dialogue was then dominated by confirmation bias and group think. Events have shown that all those supports were wrong while my lone oppose was right. The current process creates a bandwagon effect which distorts the outcome and prevents all views from being heard. A secret ballot is required to correct this. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:58, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

   Sigh. Just that one opposed, say, Trump in 2016 simply for being a businessman doesn't mean his supporters at the time were all wrong while he was right. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:49, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

   Plus, I still don't see why there wouldn't be reprisals if people removed rationales from every vote. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   There might be and so what's needed is something like the SecurePoll that's used for Arbcom elections. But this specific proposal would work as a stopgap. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   In my opinion, that'd be the worst stopgap ever, as it does not solve any problem. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   This numbered slot in the RfC is for recording my opinion not Aaron Liu's. The proposal solves the problem of editors trying to usurp or shout down other editors' opinions. That results in tiresome badgering as we see here. Discussion of the details and issues belongs in a separate discussion section, as we have below. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Sure why not. --JBL (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
5. It is a good start. But anonymous is the way to avoid all drama. Editors have to be worried about grudges and future runs for RFA if they vote their conscience under any system where they have to declare. Lightburst (talk) 22:56, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
6. I would prefer the discussion to be on the main RfA page, but I agree it should not be mixed with votes. Drama-free oppose votes without forced "rationales" would be a good change though. —Kusma (talk) 09:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Yes. Let's be honest about what it is. It is a straight vote that we all like to pretend isn't a vote by once in a while promoting someone under the threshold or failing to promote someone above the threshold. --B (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Unless there is a guideline about who should become an administrator and who shouldn't, determining a "consensus" by weighing arguments and discounting votes at RfA is an illusion. Each vote is equally valid, and RfA is just a vote. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:36, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   However, if the support percentage is between 65%-75%, then the 'crats determine it after weighing arguments. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:23, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   If the support percentage is between 65% and 75%, bureaucrats have a special and mostly pointless discussion that lacks a neutral foundation for weighing arguments in other ways than counting votes and determining how close the result is to 65% or 75%. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 08:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

9. Worth a go. My main concern is that knowing why someone has objected is more useful than knowing why someone has supported. We want to have the incidents of improper behaviour pointed out. But, I suppose, we can find out by asking the opposer on their own talkpage. Moves the potential drama to a less sensitive venue. SilkTork (talk) 00:22, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Such a venue would also be less public and less transparent for other voters' evaluation. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

10. I commented on the discussion-first thing that I'd support something like this, and I do. Discuss first, then vote. I like the separation. WaggersTALK 16:17, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

    What about the scenario where the discussion-first thing doesn't pass? Aaron Liu (talk) 18:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

11. Only way to end 'crats overreach. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:54, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Support, avoids most of the problems of each individual !vote becoming an (often bad-faith) scrutiny of the candidate's behavior, and moves the drama to a more manageable place. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 03:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Strongest possible support We need radical change if we want RFA to be a less stressful process and, yknow, actually be WP:NOBIGDEAL. I see legitimately no good reason for the type of back-and-forth arguing that complicated rationales for voting gives. It just leads to cliqueness, badgering and bizarre grilling of candidates. Support, neutral, or oppose, that's all one needs to say. Generalissima (talk) 07:16, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 8)

1. I see this as the worst, no offense. It does not protect the anonymity like secret ballots do, removes the usefulness of having attributed rationales attached in our current system, without any apparent benefit. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
2. I was going to post this to talk and leave a pointer here till I realized it would be POINTy. WP:NOTDEMOCRACY is an obvious policy to cite, but argument from tradition feels like a poor approach (and arbcom is already a straight vote, setting a precedent). My reasons are:
   1. This proposal counts petty !!votes the same as reasoned !!votes. Even if I don't post to talk or leave an informative edit summary, my vote matters all the same.
   2. There's no guarantee this will make RfAs more civil. In a recent RfA (many, really, but typed this thinking of one in particular), discussions on talk got heated and violated #PA. Why would moving discussions decrease stress?
   3. This may extend the amount of words (without adding content) because you'd have people typing "Support" on one page and "I voted support per XYZ."
   4. No anonymity per Aaron Liu.
   I'm clearly missing something: What do you think this would solve? Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 02:12, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I find Novo Tape's refutation convincing. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:14, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose per LiuAaron. Worst of both worlds, imo. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 04:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   call me Aaron :) not sure why a lot of people call me Liu Aaron Liu (talk) 14:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

6. Strong oppose - this is a discussion. - jc37 05:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Oppose - firstly, knowing why each user made his or her vote is useful in helping users unfamiliar with the candidate to get a good idea of his/her advantages and issues, allowing such users to make a more informed decision. And I see no reason why moving the discussion to an other page would be useful (moving the discussion away from the vote could be, although it makes it harder for users to tell the difference between a relevant argument a completely nonsense one, as in the latter case someone who does know the user is likely to comment on this fact).
8. Oppose We lose the benefit of rationales for people's votes being helpful for other voters, and we do not gain the anonymity that SecurePoll would provide. Also, moving all discussions to the talk page will do nothing but make them a little bit harder to see. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Oppose the opposite of what an RfA should be. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:27, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Strong Oppose. Absolutely not, this is indeed the very opposite of what we should be doing. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Oppose Aaron Liu took the words right out of my mouth. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE) 22:13, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose per Aaron and Novo Tape. Throwing away rationale just to prevent replies to your !vote is way worse than the proposal of threaded discussions only. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 08:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose no net gains with this proposal. --Goldsztajn (talk) 09:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Oppose per Aaron. Proposal #13 offers a better implementation. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose – This would prevent users from sharing their opinions on the candidate. Furthermore this would eliminate the "Arguments to avoid in RfAs" page as it would simply be pointless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ToadetteEdit (talk • contribs) 09:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Oppose in favor of the other proposal to make an actual voting election a parallel process. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Per Xaosflux. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Bar set too low. Nothing else to say there. Steel1943 (talk) 02:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Oppose Absolutely not. RfA is a discussion, not a vote. -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Strong oppose Beyond the elimination of the crucial discussion element of RfAs, I can see this would encourage sockpuppetry/vote tampering accounts by making it far easier for such accounts to participate without being noticed. Xii Xii 09:22, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Acalamari 14:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Oppose I'm starting to think the RfA process is the least worst process after reading the straight vote part. Discretion is important. SportingFlyer T·C 19:13, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Strong oppose The main effect, possibly the only effect, of this is lowering the voting threshold from 80% to 65%. That may be a good thing, but if so it should be discussed on its own merits, not done as an side effect. Dan Bloch (talk) 05:36, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Oppose For the same reasons as expounded in WP:NOTAVOTE. While there's still a minimum threshold, the benefits of discussion outweigh the potential harms. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:28, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Oppose Would structurally encourage less informed voting. I find that a very high price to pay. I don't expect the benefits to be worth the cost. Mlkj (talk) 16:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Oppose if a candidate fails RfA, it is not clear why they failed and what they can improve on for a potential second round. Furthermore, it makes it easier for people with no good reason to oppose to then oppose, which IMO will make RfA a harder experience. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
27. Oppose. Wikipedia works best on consensus decision making. Consensus decision making is not supported by a straight vote. Discussion, consideration of others’ rationales, feedback from all this, would be lost with a straight vote. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

General discussion (proposal 8)

I'm not sure what you mean by candidates automatically getting adminship when they get 65%. If the first voter votes support, that would be 100%. Would there be some minimum threshold of votes? I was going to propose a straight vote like this myself seeing as we don't seem to be ready to implement SecurePoll on a large scale just yet, but this part is tripping me up. Perhaps it would be better to just stick with the established method of counting votes after a specified end time. Pinguinn 🐧 00:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Pinguinn At the end of seven days, no minimum participant count Mach61 (talk) 01:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so like the current system. I think I'd much rather have the discussion take place on the same page as the voting so people will at least read it before they vote. This could even be combined with the discussion-first proposals where there's a discussion-only period before the straight vote opens. Pinguinn 🐧 01:08, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused by this proposal, especially when you say (RFAs) which are not closed as SNOW or NOTNOW. Is this suggesting a straight vote for already-closed RfAs? Further, the 65% support threshold isn't one I'm comfortable with. Curious to hear more from you on what you see this proposal changing. Thanks Mach. — That Coptic Guy^{ping me!} (talk) (contribs) 02:15, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

This means that SNOW/NOTNOW RfAs don't count toward the 5 RfAs that the trial runs for. They will still be done as pure votes, which may make it less obvious it's a SNOW/NOTNOW, though. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• So this is "make it a vote" - which is an easy enough proposal; but not sure about the rest. Will there still be Q&A, will there still be the ability to have a discussion somewhere? — xaosflux ^Talk 16:22, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  There will still be Q&A, and as mentioned the RfA talk page is available. Mach61 (talk) 16:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 9: Require diffs

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Require all support or oppose comments to also add unique diffs relevant to, and/or supportive of, their comments.

You can still say "also per so-n-so", but you still have to provide unique diffs of your own first.

If you support or oppose a candidate, you should be able to show why. If they are ready for adminship, this should be an easy thing to do. - jc37 05:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

Support (proposal 9) Support - as proposer. - jc37 05:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose (proposal 9) This would be very onerous for supporters. The last three RfAs had 265, 215, and 207 supports. For a new commenter to review all past statements to ensure they didn't duplicate a diff would be very time-consuming. It also seems unnecessary to require unique diffs for every commenter (support or oppose). If we want to make the selection process a weighing of pros versus cons, then we should just do that directly: collect supporting information about the characteristics of the candidate, and consider how they balance against each other. isaacl (talk) 05:57, 21 February 2024 (UTC) Reducing "drive-by voting" would be a feature, not a bug. This isn't a popularity contest, or a competition to see how many people can support a nomination. It's a Request for comments concerning a request for administrative tools. If that means fewer but more substantive commenters. then as I said, that's a feature, not a bug. And on the oppose side, this can help address drive-by opposition as well. - jc37 06:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC) He didn't comment about drive-by voting. There's a huge gap between drive-by voting and needing to spend over half an hour looking for an appropriate diff. Animal lover |666| 06:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC) As you can see from my previous proposal to which I linked, I support making the process based on the relative strength of pros and cons rather than counting up people on each side. But just requiring unique diffs from each person makes this into a net diff competition, without weighing the importance of each diff. isaacl (talk) 07:06, 21 February 2024 (UTC) This has multiple problems: firstly, as the votes in either direction pile up, it would discourage additional votes in that direction; the mere need to look back far enough to find a unique diff and compare it to all the already linked diffs. Low participation is a frequently cited problem with RFA, not a goal. Secondly, on the negative side, a single diff could convince many to oppose, and there won't be any additional diffs to use for opposers after the first. Thirdly, if you're talking about a pattern of behavior (this user has a 99% success rate at tagging speedy deletions), how would you find an appropriate diff? It would also tend to cause too much emphasis on the user's distant past (it's much easier for your diff to be unique if you look there, and while doing so you notice some outdated concern). Note also that if CSD tagging is a major part of what convinces some non-administrator voter, then there is no way for the voter to find the diff - it may even be difficult for an admin to do so. Animal lover |666| 06:25, 21 February 2024 (UTC) Nope. The "unique diffs" is a showstopper for me - if you want to "Oppose per this recent example (1) of policy violation" - why shouldn't someone else also be able to share that concern? — xaosflux Talk 11:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose I would support a proposal to require diffs for specific statements about specific circumstances, but you can't provide a diff for "not enough experience" or "great success ratio at CSD" and those should not be banned as reasons. Also, this would make it very hard for later voters, since unused diffs will quickly become hard to find, ignoring the fact that compiling more than one in a single comment is already a hard task on mobile. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:15, 21 February 2024 (UTC) Per all of the above. The unique diff requirement is an extra deal-breaker, but even if that was removed I would still oppose since some valid rationales are impossible to justify via diff. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:12, 21 February 2024 (UTC) General discussion (proposal 9) It's good for !votes to be evidence-based but the proposal hasn't been thought through. For example, consider the common oppose reason of a lack of content creation or low edit count. Such a lack of relevant experience is not verified with a diff. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 10: Unbundling 90% of blocks

Identifying vandals and spammers is easy, that's why we hand out rollback like candy. Blocking for incivility and pretty much any block involving goodfaith editors is difficult, and we need to vet candidates for that right very seriously. Uncontentious blocks of IPs and newbies for vandalism are the vast majority of the blocks we currently only have admins to issue. So it would be logical to create a new userright with the block/unblock button and also view deleted. This block/unblock button would only work on IPs and editors who are not yet extended confirmed. Admins would still have the full block and unblock power as at present.

Support (proposal 10)

1. As proposer ϢereSpielChequers 08:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Whether or not it's technically feasible is a separate issue, but we'd need to show consensus here first before any time is spent on the software side. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahecht (talk • contribs) 15:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Moral support. I like the spirit of this. I like the idea that not every form of mopping requires expertise about the way the mop was manufactured. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Unbundling is always good. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:54, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support: a different standard of trust is needed for blocking vandals/spammers and for blocking long-term volunteers with complex histories of blocks, bans and warnings and the lengthy discussion that precedes or follows these blocks. It makes sense to unbundle this. Creating a new userright is cheap and if creating the new permission is an issue then it could be enforced through policy that someone in user group X may only block IPs or accounts that are not XC (I don't think it would be hard to detect abusers of this userright—violations could be bot-reported). — Bilorv (talk) 22:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support per Bilorv. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 13:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support. I'm hesitant about unbundling in general: I find the argument persuasive that unbundling core parts of the toolset would inflate the standards for regular admins (WSC, I feel like you've made this argument yourself?) but I think this is specific enough that it shouldn't be an issue. We have a decent number of editors who are RC patrol specialists, and giving them the ability to place blocks should considerable reduce the admin workload at AIV. The concern about separating blocking and protecting is a valid one, but I don't see a situation in this specific case where a holder of this userright could overuse the block button without it obviously becoming an issue. I would support this even more strongly if view-delete was removed; I'm not sure that it's needed. As an aside, unbundling has always been understood as allowing a subset of admin rights made assignable to a larger group of editors; not taken away from regular admins (AP is the only instance I'm aware of of the latter type of change). Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Support. I know this probably won't pass, but I've always been sympathetic to unbundling, and, in my opinion, VOAs are easy to spot, and the more hands on deck, the better. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 18:32, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Weak conditional support Some other wikis such as Conservapedia have this and it works out okay there. This could be handy when there's an active vandalism spree and there's a backlog at WP:AIV. However, this needs to be severely limited if implemented, such as limiting it to one hour blocks and no rangeblocks at all. I disagree that dealing with casual vandals is simple (even though the damage they do is minimal). We already have a problem with handful of admins who, in my opinion, act outside of the spirit of a free encyclopedia that anyone can contribute to by allowing little kids to bruise their egos enough to block millions of people for extended periods of time (oh how dare some little girl in fifth grade write "poop" on Wikipedia, I have to blocked her entire state's educational backbone which includes community colleges, major research universities (how cute that we have research scientists being greeted with a image of a one room school house saying they can't edit because they're on the same /16 range as children), hospitals, and hundreds of public libraries to stop her, and then block all three major wireless carriers when she uses her cell phone and her friends' cell phones to evade that massive rangeblock!), we don't need to expand that problem by giving inexperienced Wikipedians a level of previously unknown destructive power. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 00:38, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Support. Ivan (talk) 08:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Support in principle but details need attention later. I'd limit it to IPs and not ranges except IPv6/64 which is effectively one address. It need not involve undeletion – if a relevant version is deleted then an admin is already involved and we can accept that the new permission won't cover this edge case. Certes (talk) 12:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Support I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but this change alone could become a de facto pathway for a "trial" adminship that could make it easier to garner support in a full RfA later. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Strong Support - a great idea and seems very useful, especially if applicable to most blocks, and sounds similar to the "unbundled" WP:TPE right. Misuse can be handled by revocation and/or raising the bar for granting. A good track record at WP:AIV is a good place to start. To help assuage concerns, the initial requirements can be made very strict, and then relaxed if/as needed.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  18:31, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Support while unbundling might be cause minor technical issues it would improve the process for anti vandalism and leave admins to handle the important blocks. Zippybonzo | talk | contribs (they/them) 20:58, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Strongest Possible Support I would think that this could be enforced with an edit filter, but it would probably be simpler to just write it into the MediaWiki software upstream. As someone who would largely, almost exclusively, use the tools for this purpose, not being able to access the tools for this purpose due to the community concern about the prospect/potential of unskilled admins wading into other areas, is hindering the project as a whole since disruption must wait for someone to actually click the button. Reporting vandals and LTAs to AIV is only effective if someone is actually watching the board at the moment when reports are filed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, either. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 00:06, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

    I don't think you can regulate blocks with edit filters or see that patch to MediaWiki within this season. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 10)

1. Not with full view deleted, which is spectacularly easy to screw up with. Maybe just with deletedhistory (which is security through obscurity anyway; you can get everything it tells you from database dumps and sql queries) to facilitate unblocking. Or maybe don't unbundle unblock either; unblocks are much rarer than blocks, and easy enough to let CAT:UNBLOCK patrollers handle it. —Cryptic 08:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Though, hrm, there isn't currently a separate permission to unblock (or modify blocks, which amounts to the same - doesn't matter if you can't unblock someone if you can just reblock them with a one-second expiry). Though I guess we'd need a new permission for block-only-ip-and-newbie anyway. —Cryptic 08:44, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   I think that anyone that can block should be able to unblock, otherwise errors become much more costly. --Ahecht (TALK
   PAGE) 15:44, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

2. I am generally opposed to unbundling any of b/p/d. Also, bad blocks of newbies are just as much a problem as bad blocks of non-newbies are. —Kusma (talk) 09:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
3. This technical functionality doesn't exist yet so this is super premature, if you want to work on the effort to build a block (but not for these type of targets) suggest you start the massive time it would take to prototype that capability first (even if enwiki didn't use it, someone may). — xaosflux ^Talk 10:54, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Actually, I've spoken with them in the past. And they said it would only take a few seconds to create this as a user-right group. The functionality has already been done. - jc37 11:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   {{cite}} please (link to the phab ticket containing the gerrit patch). FWIW user-right groups are indeed easy to make, but groups are just containers for permissions - which must be integrated in to the software. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Reading what you wrote below, I see that you and I were talking about 2 different things. I was talking about merely creating a user-right group of already existing user-rights. And it looks like you were talking about the creation of a new user-right. My apologies for the misunderstanding. - jc37 16:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Please can we stop opposing ideas based on assertions of technical limitations? It's software man, we can always change it, it's really not so much to add a feature to the development of software under development. I see so many good ideas being strangled in the crib because some old timer insider says "can't be done" or asserts it would take "massive time" or something similar. This is what happened with securepoll in RFA2021. Let's not repeat this in RFA2024, please. Levivich (talk) 15:33, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   No one is going to take the time to develop the feature in software unless it is shown that there is community consensus for it first, so to assert that we can't have community consensus for a feature that doesn't exist yet is not constructive. --Ahecht (TALK
   PAGE) 15:48, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   We, the English Wikipedia community, can't implement something that doesn't exist. This is exactly what happened in ACERFC2020 when some just use some coding magic was approved, but no wizard ever appeared to conjure it. Using the SP example above, getting community powered securepoll working has been discussed for years (see phab:T301180 and its linked tasks for the latest iteration) - so I'm just being realistic that we shouldn't try to build a community process around software that may never be developed.

   This sort of technical functionality is something that some users of mediawiki powered projects may indeed find useful (even if the English Wikpedia doesn't use it), as are also literally thousands of backlogged feature requests. So if it is a good idea, it can get built in software and certainly doesn't require the consensus of a single WMF community to do so.

   What we could do right now easily: create a usergroup that has some subsection of administrator rights bundled (e.g. block, deletedhistory) - and couple that with a policy about how it may be used and assigned. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   The English Wikipedia community has been creating what doesn't exist for 23 years (including new software). Ideas first, software follows. Levivich (talk) 16:03, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Note: splitting the block permission has been a feature request for 8 years (phab:T128328) - anyone is welcome to advocate for it, or to take it up and start writing demo code. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Doubling down on my oppose for non-tech reasons, assuming this actually wants to remove "unbundle" the ability for admins to make blocks - and then make them go through some completely undefined process to get "blocker" access. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Looks like this section was confusingly labelled, and is not asking for unbundling at all, but instead just "create a new group" of some sort of "blockers". I'm somewhat Supportive of something like that, but think it should be a standalone RFC and not something that would have to go through the "RFA" process. Seems like it could be handled at WP:PERM - with perhaps a 1-week minimum listing requirement (sort of like EFM). If so, think this should be split in to a standalone RFC after workshopping. Initially, it may need to rely on "administrative controls" (i.e. "rules") about how the permissions can be used. Precedent for this sort of thing is normal, with groups such as extendedmover having been built this way. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:24, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   I like that for BRFAs, folks get consensus outside BRFA first, then worry about technical details later, at BRFA. it's a two step process and the consensus part is completely separate from the technical implementation part. I think it should work this way for this proposal and any technical proposal on enwiki too. It would be ideal to support/oppose based on whether the person thinks it's a good idea or not, rather than support/oppose on the software already having been designed or not. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:33, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Strong oppose It is never a good idea to have blocks, page protections, and deletions - the three key tools of an administrator - unbundled period. These are tools that are needed to execute the basic duties and responsibilities of administrators, which is to drive abuse off our platform, and giving users one or two of these tools makes them less capable to appropriately handle abuse than giving none at all. Giving them to anyone else more than likely invites abuse. I can understand rollback - the unbundling of this just makes it faster than undo to revert edits - but the other three make no sense to unbundle and hand out individually. For example, it would result in the blocking of users when page protection would be more appropriate, or vice versa. Awesome Aasim 21:16, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Having edited as an IP before making an account this sounds like a terrible idea. Editors doing vandal patrol regularly get in the mindset that all IP edits are suspicious. This sounds like a great way to spread that mindset to blocks. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
6. I am generally opposed to unbundling. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Blocking even run-of-the-mill vandals/spammers/LTAs may require reviewing any deleted edits, a functionality which IMO requires the trust level of a normal sysop. JavaHurricane 17:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Strong oppose: This discounts the admin userrights. Also, defining a non-contentious block is different between each editor. The good thing about AIV/UAA/etc is that less-experienced editors can get second opinions from more-experienced editors (admins) without having to go through so much trouble and without actually enacting any blocks. Generally, there aren't a lot of problems (that I can see) with backlog of those smaller noticeboards. Another reason is that there would have to be a lot of policy rewrites related to ADMINCOND and the blockers would have to be watched very carefully. I can see how it could maybe go right with a small trial run of blockers with mentors, but A) that's a lot of extra work, and B) that would be hard to implement for the rest of the encyclopedia. (Also, who would grant these rights? I'm assuming admins at RFPERM, but that feels weird because, again, that would be severely changing the level of consensus for someone to get blocking rights.) —asparagusus (interaction) ^sprouts! 23:53, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
9. I understand the thinking behind this, however blocks of inexperienced users even by established admins can be wrong, but there's little comeback because they have no social standing, and have little to no knowledge or confidence in challenging the block. I feel we lose a lot of potentially good users by too harsh treatment of them merely because they are new and make mistakes. I feel we should have way more leeway for new users making mistakes than experienced users making the same mistakes, because the experienced users should know better. SilkTork (talk) 00:50, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

   This. My favorite is the schoolblocks for "persistent vandalism" over edits that are clearly good faith but improperly formatted. Because of this, I usually don't even tag school IP addresses with {{Shared IP edu}} anymore unless it's a college, in practice that template has become the opposite of what it was intended to be. Imagine being someone whose brain is still developing and realizing an honest mistake you made trying to edit an article caused an entire school district to get blocked for 10 years... Even looking at the edits that aren't necessarily meant to be positive contributions, most edits I see from schools (and really IPs in general) aren't even vandalism at all if you apply WP:Vandalism and WP:AGF simultaneously, they're "test edits" (as evidenced by the number of them that are self reverted) which policy treats different than vandalism. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 21:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

10. Per SilkTork. Also while there are certainly a lot more inexperienced user blocks than experienced user blocks, they are not really going to be the most time consuming since it's pretty easy and quick to block for vandalism; not so much for e.g. civility or pov pushing. Galobtter (talk) 01:41, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Strong oppose A lot of vandalism-only blocks would still require admin tools like RevDel and page protection. This would cause some problems if, say, someone with the tools needed to block an IP, but turns out that IP's proxying and keeps vandalizing that same page. That user with the tools could keep blocking the IPs, but it would be much better if they just protected the page. Also, what about RevDelete? A lot of vandalism needs to be RevDel'd, and if a user can only block, they can't do that. Plus, with seeing deleted history, won't the WMF have a problem with users just being given that right through RFPERM without community vetting? But it would probably be pretty important to the toolset since a "blocker" (whatever this would be called) might need to see RevDel'd diffs to block. I feel like this kind of is described here. ‍ Relativity 23:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Strong oppose per SilkTork. Z1720 (talk) 01:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Has nothing to do with RFA, so this is wrong venue. Something like this needs to be discussed outside of this RFA bundle. Steel1943 (talk) 02:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Oppose: Something like this would probably be great, but not this specific proposal and not at this venue. Glad to see unbundling getting some discussion, though. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose if someone can be trusted with the block button, then I'm confident they can be trusted with the whole toolset -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Oppose I appreciate the proposition and the logic behind it, and in an ideal world, I'd support it. But this is reality, and I've seen bad blocks from "trusted" admins, and when something that is as powerful as a block is misused (and it will be when, not if), that's a potential new editor who will be disheartened and won't return. - SchroCat (talk) 10:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
17. OpposeThis assumes that IPs and new editors are in bad faith, and should have fewer rights than more experienced editors. All editors should get the same level of respect when a block is being considered. (It would be better to require all editors to use an account.) Sweet6970 (talk) 11:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose unnecessary unbundling. Also not an area to have inexperienced users anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Oppose - I'm not necessarily opposed to some unbundling, but blocks of unregistered and new users aren't as lightweight as the proposal suggests. I'm also pretty sure that this would require development to implement, and this isn't what I think we should be allocating dev resources to. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Strong Oppose largely for the reasons described by SilkTork. Blocking should be an absolute last resort occurring only in the most extreme cases. Restricting access to editing is contrary to our ethos and a block can deter or discourage a problematic new editor who has the potential, with guidance, to evolve into a more productive contributor. I've issued exactly four blocks in the five years since I've been an Admin and each of those four have been agonizing. I would be absolutely horrified at the prospect of making this process any easier or more robustly applied. I also agree with the entirety of Ivanvector's unrelated comment. Chetsford (talk) 02:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
21. I don't think we can have unbundling of such a core feature, and to have it limited in such a way. I also don't like the implication/message it sends that such individuals/editors are fine to block, no big deal. There shouldn't be a difference. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:59, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
22. Oppose It's not a bad idea, but I think it would create two tiers of admins, which I don't think is ideal. Number 57 01:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

General discussion (proposal 10)

If this was a group of: block/blockemail/unblock; I think I could support this unbundling (presuming that the separated bundle is grandfathered/added to all current admins). But "view deleted", (even just the history) brings along issues that I would rather see as part of a discussion closer's package of user-rights, than merely someone who is helping out by blocking users due to behavioural issues. Not opposing yet, because I think through discussion this could become a workable proposal. - jc37 08:46, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think removing the access from the core admin group would be a good idea at all ("unbundling") - having to go through RFA and then also having to add this group through whatever process we would require sounds like a headache. Permissions can be duplicated in other groups though without removing. Think of how pagemovers have some extra permissions, but we didn't have to take them away from admins; contrast to removing autopatrolled from admins (an actual unbundling). — xaosflux ^Talk 16:03, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

That's not quite what I was suggesting, but I can see that it's being seen through the filter of this proposal. Maybe I should write it up as a separate proposal.

Basically, I would like to see a new user-right group of "block/blockemail/unblock" (and probably ipblockexempt). It would automatically be given to all admins. (And all new admins). But it would allow an admin to voluntarily drop those user-rights as a group if they wished. (The normal trip to WP:BN.) We have found in past discussions that some editors have ethical issues with having access to those tools. (For example, it came up that certain Amish had issues with carrying those user rights). A secondary benefit would be to deal with arbcom situations where the admin is doing good work except in their discretion of when to block or not. So having the ability to also remove this group would be an option for arbcom, as well. - jc37 16:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@Jc37 that's "possible", and it could even be adding it is Crats, removing it from yourself is something you can self-service (but not put it back). Note "unblock" isn't a thing (that ability comes with "block"); unless this is going to be part of the RFA process (like voters can say "sure, but not that blocky stuff"), a different RFC may be better here (workshoping what is easy/hard to actually do may be a good first step). — xaosflux ^Talk 18:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Probably.

And yes about unblock, I just tend to include that word so that those unaware of that don't need to ask the obvious : ) - jc37 18:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

This is an independently-proposed repeat of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Responder role, which discussed some of the issues being discussed here in more detail. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Regarding implementation feasibility reality checks: getting an idea if something is technically feasible, or if it has inevitable side effects for users is helpful to avoid raising people's hopes. The proposed one-time sorting mechanism per reader that was proposed for the arbitration committee election candidates page could not be implemented without incurring either a page loading cost or back-end server cost that was disproportionate for the amount of use it would get. Modifying SecurePoll doesn't have the same type of constraints that applies for most of the code underlying Wikipedia—as long as the old version is still available if needed to access any archived data, it doesn't matter if the user interface or implementation radically changes. Adding a new capability for, say, blocking specific users can be overlaid on top of existing capabilities, so it too is technically feasible (not to minimize the number of use case scenarios that would have to be examined and tested, nor the implementation cost, though). The community ought to remain aware, though, that the more development effort required, the longer it may be until a feature is implemented. Personally I feel the community should still support capabilities it desires even if they require new development, but at the same time, understand that there is no guarantee on when the required work might be scheduled and delivered. isaacl (talk) 17:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Agree! I just think it's bad form to try to say "Hey devs, you need to do this because we made a local project rule that says it should exist". Most backlogged item's aren't backlogged because nobody wants them. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:14, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Responder role#Implementation. The same concept should work here. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Xaosflux that in the interim we can define in policy how a selected administrator can make use of their assigned privileges. isaacl (talk) 18:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The community has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to enforce such social rules, i.e Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 86#Restoring to Account Creators the Ability to Edit Editnotices * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

If I understand the situation correctly, that was more "don't add a permission to a given user group just because there's a more convenient process to assign that user group to a user". isaacl (talk) 02:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

• @WereSpielChequers: can you clarify - are you proposing removing the block ability from our hundreds of admins, making them have to go become some sort of new "blocker" group if they want to be able to manage blocks anymore? — xaosflux ^Talk 23:44, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Would WMF legal have issues with this? Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 17:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

@Snowmanonahoe legal certainly won't care if we take rights AWAY from admins, and they also won't care if we give block to some other group. For example, ptwiki allows "rollbacker" to block/unblock. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

One very big pro I can see to this, if there are severe limits to what they are allowed to do as a sysop-lite (with serious consequences if they step out of bounds), is it would give us insight as to how potential admins would use the toolset, we could weed out the heavy-handed ones before they have the opportunity to do things like block all Spectrum Business customers in the state of Hawaii because a few IPs on the /16 range out of ephebiphobia (this is a reference to an actual schoolblock I saw but am not going to invest the time to hunt down a link to it; it would have to look absolutely ridiculous to try to edit from a law firm or a medical office and see that you're blocked as being a school because a few schools in Hawaii use Spectrum Business). PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 22:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

An idea I had after reading some of the discussion above, is maybe do this the other way around and have semi-protection unbundled instead of blocking. Preventing IPs from editing a single page for a day or a week will have a much lower chance of innocent users getting caught up in it than blocking specific IPs from editing everything. If the vandal registers or moves to a different page, then we'll have the paper trail for an admin to properly block. --~ฅ(ↀωↀ=)neko-chan^nyan 19:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, though I suspect it may be too tangential to be proposed on this page. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea, but I'm curious whether the impact of misuse would really be lower! Pages where vandalism happen are usually high traffic pages, and consider that 90% of registered users make at most than 5 edits total. Semi-protection on a high-traffic page is potentially turning away many more of those handful-per-person drive-by edits than blocking an IP. These drive-by edits are the majority of contributions on Wikipedia (despite counting automated tooling in the numbers!). RFPP/I is admirably conservative. I think page protection is a bigger deal than a block. It's much easier for a new user to appeal a block on their talk page than wander into RFPP/D, too. Mlkj (talk) 17:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 11: Set some of the Admin criteria

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Much of the angst and disagreement at RFA isn't really about the candidate, it is about the criteria for adminship. Hence the critique of RFA as it being like taking your driving test whilst driving a minibus full of examiners who are arguing with each other about the criteria for the test. This also causes uncertainty among potential candidates as to what the criteria is. Part of the problem of RFA as opposed to Rollback, Autopatroller or other userrights is that we don't have defined criteria for adminship that potential candidates can look at. Some of those criteria, 12 months activity, no blocks in the last month, at least 3,000 edits and some experience could be set by consensus in individual RFCs per criteria.

Extended content

Support (proposal 11) As proposer ϢereSpielChequers 08:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose (proposal 11) Adminship doesn't have defined criteria because it's a bundle of wildly different rights. Say I only want admin for, I don't know, granting userrights and blocking vandals. Should I really have to pass some arbitrary criteria like "5 Good articles in the last 3 months" or "25 XfD !votes in the last month" just so I can perform actions completely unrelated to them? – Hilst [talk] 12:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC) No, you shouldn't, and that's the point. Setting criteria for minimum expectations can also allow us to say "your criteria aren't a part of the consensus set of minima, you may not use them to oppose a candidate". Izno (talk) 17:33, 22 February 2024 (UTC) Not allowing people to use their own criteria is a surefire way to make a good chunk of the community mad. Even if we do go through with it, the subsequent RfCs for setting the minimum guidelines (and I assume we're also making sets for every admin area) would be a massive time sink. – Hilst [talk] 21:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC) That we have to have periodic reviews to fix RFA is also a massive time sink. :) a surefire way to make a good chunk of the community mad I don't think this is relevant. And now is the time anyway to voice their displeasure, not some amorphous later you seem to be worried about. I think the definition of the criteria is actually one of the easier parts. Candidate shows a (basic?) understanding of the core policies with diffs where they didn't is more or less what most people (should?) use to evaluate candidacies. Often times the arbitrary N articles or M XFD votes criteria are standing in for that but are doing 0 to aid and advance the actual discussion about the candidacy. That's what needs to go, and being able to tell these !voters that they need to come up with actual proof that the candidate does not know basic policy and/or guideline backed by a stricken vote would take care of this particular objection (or, heck, support!) that so often comes up. Now, I don't actually think this is the way to solve the core problem, but it does address one of them problems seen. Izno (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose per Hlist. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 13:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC) Basically, if you are filing a NOTNOW - you aren't ready to be an admin -- however expanding the brightline cutoffs leaves out some niche cases that could be useful. We have effectively required at least someone that is ECP to be involved in starting up an RFA. — xaosflux Talk 15:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC) * Pppery * it has begun... 17:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC) Per Goodhart's law. --JBL (talk) 17:46, 22 February 2024 (UTC) Ultimately, I decide based on whether or not I trust the candidate, and I don't want anyone dictating to me what criteria I should use. Different candidates can meet different criteria. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC) What Tryptofish said. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC) General discussion (proposal 11) If this proposal passes, what would it do exactly? Auto promote all candidates that meet the criteria, and auto reject all candidates that don't meet the criteria? In other words, completely abolish voting? Can the proposal be edited to be clearer about all this please? Thanks in advance. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:36, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 12: Abolish the discretionary zone and crat chats

RfA has a discretionary zone as part of its "not a vote" tradition. At some point (when RfAs had become rare), individual bureaucrats no longer wanted to exercise this discretion so crat chats were born, leading to additional days of bureaucrat scrutiny of the voters' arguments. This was a nice idea when it started, but now the community anticipates the crat chats. This means that during voting, people are inclined to make more and more lengthy arguments to ensure their vote is counted, further increasing the contentiousness of the discussion and the stress for the candidate. A simple hard pass/fail boundary would help to calm things down instead of inflaming things further like the anticipation of crat chats.

Support (proposal 12)

1. As proposer. —Kusma (talk) 08:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. We've had more problematic admins who got 99% than 65-75%, meanwhile crat chats increase the temperature at RFA as editors try to lobby crats. As a bonus I think it keeps people from wanting to be crats. Time to ditch this archaic pointless unhealthy ritual. Levivich (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Sure. --JBL (talk) 17:48, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Unless there is a guideline about who should become an administrator and who shouldn't, determining a "consensus" by weighing arguments and discounting votes at RfA is an illusion. Each vote is equally valid, and RfA is just a vote. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Why would a vote be better than 'crats weighing arguments? Aaron Liu (talk) 23:24, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Because there is no guideline established by a larger consensus than the individual RfA to determine which of the arguments are "better" than others. Deletion discussions, as a counterexample, have relatively few participants that apply notability guidelines established by larger consensus. That's why weighing works at AfD but not RfA, and why at RfA each reason for supporting or opposing is equally valid. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 08:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Common sense prevails. Bureaucrats are elected due to their great judgement, and I don't see reason to trust eventual guidelines so much more than them. I don't follow your logic. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Issacl has corrected me below. However, I still think that it's better to trust human evaluation of votes than a hard percentage. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Crikey. --JBL (talk) 21:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

5. Support. Set it at 70.00%. A simple cutoff and eliminating crat chats would eliminate a ton of drama. No more surprise extensions of your RFA. No more days of sitting on the edge of your seat. No more crats deciding to crat chat outside the normal 65-75% thresholds, like they did here. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
6. For the same reasons as my own proposal eight. Mach61 (talk) 15:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Allowing crats to supervote is problematic. When an editor cannot muster a C- in support they do not have enough trust of the community. Lightburst (talk) 18:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   But 65%+ is a C- or above? 'crats have the trust of the community to supervote, so I don't see why that is so bad. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:47, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Hey @Aaron Liu: Just pointing out that you have made 73 edits to this page. Might be considered excessive. And 65 is a D unless we grade on a curve. Lightburst (talk) 22:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Bureaucrats are not authorized to substitute their own preferences for those of the commenters in an RfA. In fact they have been explicitly selected by the community for their ability to put aside personal preferences and adhere to policy. isaacl (talk) 19:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I don’t think grades are a fair analogy for RfAs. Political elections make more sense and, in most constituencies, 65% support is rather high (Bill Watterson also has something to say on the matter of comparing elections to grades). Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 19:26, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

8. Support We've seen super voting before to push people who were below the discretionary threshold and the person I'm remembering was desysopped two years later and left the project. The 'crats cocked up badly in that case (I commented on the 'crat chat talk that "I think people will feel pissed off with the RfA process if valid oppose !votes are so cheaply disposed of and the 'crats can supervote in whoever they want to. That would be a distressing situation, and one that will only bring discord and long-held ill feeling". I stand by that even more now than I did then. - SchroCat (talk) 10:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
9. per nom.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 23:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Support - RFA is a straight vote, it has functioned that way for many years. We can make ideological arguments about how it's a consensus-seeking discussion but the fact of the matter is that RFAs with a numeric result above some number always pass, and below some number always fail, regardless of crat chats. There is still a numeric range where the result can go either way and this proposal doesn't address that, so I'm going to propose something a little different, but I basically agree with the idea of eliminating crat discretion. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:09, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

    @Ivanvector: I don't see how you come to that conclusion, IV. GoldenRing passed at 66.9%; RexxS passed at 64.1%; MB failed at 68.4%; Jbhunley failed at 69.5%. There's a reasonable argument to be made that if we'd treated RFA as a strict vote, then one of those editors may have still been around; but given that I'm only counting 7 crat-chats since you and I became admins, I don't see how you can conclude that weighting isn't at play when a crat-chat happens. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

11. Support If it's not clear whether there's a consensus then you haven't got one. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 12)

1. If "Change RFA to a strict vote" is what you want, then just call it like it is. — xaosflux ^Talk 10:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong oppose - closer discretion is a fundamental foundation of Wikipedia. - jc37 11:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I am really not sure that we want RFA to be a vote with no element of discussion. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   This particular proposal does not suggest to remove discussion from RFA. —Kusma (talk) 23:39, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   But it removes a lot of their impact. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:59, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Strong oppose per everyone else. This is a terrible idea. We don't even do it in AfDs. Doug Weller talk 15:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Content decisions are obviously unsuitable for voting. RfA is a binary decision about a person, not at all comparable. —Kusma (talk) 18:24, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   A person with thousands of edits is more complex, not less, than an article and, as such, RfA should allow more nuance than AfD. If I oppose AfD votes (for the record, I do), I certainly oppose RfA votes. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 22:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   We don't even do it in AfDs – of course we don't. There are notability guidelines established by a larger consensus, so favoring guideline-based arguments makes sense. There is no guideline about who should become an administrator, though, and the participation at RfA is significantly higher than at AfDs. There is no larger consensus and no adminship guideline that could be used for weighing arguments in RfAs, so RfAs are de facto already votes and can't be closed like AfDs. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   No guidelines but there are general expectations for Admins See WP:Administrators which says among other things "The RfA process allows other editors to get to know the candidate. Editors explore the candidate's involvement and background as an editor, conduct in discussions, and understanding of the role they are requesting. Editors state if they support or oppose the request, along with their reasons and impressions of the candidate." And "the quality of feedback and review on the candidate's readiness and demeanor by experienced editors is often very high. Applicants who are unsuccessful but take steps to address points raised will often succeed on a subsequent request some months later." Also see Wikipedia:Guide to requests for adminship#What RfA contributors look for and hope to see. Doug Weller talk 17:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

5. Oppose for the same reason that I oppose straight voting without comments. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose per Quicole. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
7. The nom statement does not persuade me that this is a good idea. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Strong oppose, as contrary to our ethos. I don't see how this would reduce stress in a contentious RFA, and indeed it would increase the motivation to game the system; recruiting a couple of drive-by voters would now be much more likely to change the outcome of a contentious RFA than it currently is. The crat-chat system works pretty well, IMHO, and as a body I trust the crats to separate the wheat from the chaff even if I've disagreed with a handful of outcomes. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Strong oppose, Vanamonde93 puts it well. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 18:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose Per reasons I stated above within this discussion. Also, since there are no clear guidelines as to who should become a sysop, it makes sense that everyone should be encouraged to defend what they think is necessary. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 19:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Strong oppose per Vanamonde93 ‍ Relativity 23:22, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose I think the discretionary zone is a good buffer for RfAs and the pass/fail rate, and would rather see it stay. Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
13. I have to agree with Xaosflux. This proposal violates the principle that polling is not a substitute for discussion. Echoing Vanamonde93's concerns, the proposal says that basically bureaucrats must be rubberstamps? I think they should have some course-correcting powers if the outcome is close. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Hecka naw!!!. Took us long enough to establish the discretionary zone. Abolishing it would be a step backwards. Having one also makes the process clearer for bureaucrats. Steel1943 (talk) 01:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose. Moves away from consensus decision making towards simply voting. Simple voting encourages gaming at the expense of intellect. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC). There is already too much attention on the numerical result, at the expense of the summary of consensus by the closing bureaucrat. Maybe this is the bureaucrats fault, for their tradition of terse closes, which has led to RfA studied analysing the result as a function of the vote count, to the exclusion of any subjective analysis of the !votes. This has led to the community telling bureaucrats how to read consensus in terms of the numerical result, which is utterly backwards. Crat chats are a good thing. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:21, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
16. Oppose Absolutely not. Basically the same thing as Proposal 8 (which I also opposed). -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Oppose: Per Vanamonde. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:16, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose We need a system for when we run into the grey areas. SportingFlyer T·C 19:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Oppose per Vanamonde Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Oppose. I'm actually more sympathetic to this than one might expect, but if nothing else bureaucrat discretion is a useful failsafe for preventing totally bogus opposes from sinking an RfA. To take one example, if Vanamonde's RfA had gotten a few dozen more opposes in the same vein, I don't think the crats should have been powerless to discount them. The proposal would incentivize low-effort sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, canvassing, and the like. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Oppose, per all others here. Daniel Case (talk) 22:36, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Oppose - Vanamonde explained it. StonyBrook _babble 23:36, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Make it bigger! ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:01, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
24. Oppose unless RfA is a strict vote, then we should still have this discretionary range. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 17:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
25. Oppose Some RfAs have been targeted by disgruntled editors that the nominee has (rightly) annoyed by trying to implement Wikipedia policies/guidelines. Bureaucrats should have discretion to effectively discount such !votes if an RfA is finely balanced. Number 57 00:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

General discussion (proposal 12)

Very few RFAs are anywhere near the discretionary zone, if people are being clearer in their RFA !Votes maybe that's about them wanting to have others pay attention to their !votes. Also there was one crat chat last year and maybe two the year before. The numbers are too few to justify the assertion that every RFA that ends in the discretionary zone is expected to go to a crat chat. For example, I assume that if there is an RFA just inside the discretionary zone, but clearly outside if you downweight the weak supports and opposes, I could close that uncontentiously. Equally if an RFA was in freefall due to something happening at the start of day 6, and the RFA had dropped from >99% to clearly in the discretionary zone, I could close as unsuccessful without people calling for a cratchat. ϢereSpielChequers 09:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Have you seen Tamzin's RfA? Crat chats may be rare, but they do more harm than good, both to candidates and the overall health of RfA. —Kusma (talk) 09:54, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Seen it? I was in the support column, and recused from the cratchat. But that's irrelevant to this proposal and to my comments on it. This proposal is saying that cratchats have become automatic for every RFA in the discretionary zone, I made the point that "there was one crat chat last year and maybe two the year before" that's three, and you've just named one of them. You could also name the other two and it wouldn't refute my comments. If Cratchats do more harm than good that's a different thing and more relevant to those proposals to make the RFA a simple up and down vote. There is an argument that we should speed up crat chats, but that would need its own proposal - and the easiest way to do it would be to recruit more crats and then set an expectation that any uninvolved crat could close the cratchat after x crats had opined. ϢereSpielChequers 10:44, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

How does this proposal differ from proposal 8 on making the process a straight vote? isaacl (talk) 17:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

In this proposal, there is no limit on voting rationales or discussion in the voting section. —Kusma (talk) 18:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kusma so would 'crats still be expected to make a determination based on the strengths of the discussion? The "discretionary zone" is a guideline not a brightline already. As far as removing crat chats, you'd rather see a single crat make a contentious close then to ask for peer input? — xaosflux ^Talk 23:46, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't want there to be contentious closes at all, so I want a bright line instead of a discretionary zone. I want the discussion (if there is one in the voting section) to be for the benefit of the participants, not something to be later analyzed by the closing bureaucrat. I do personally think we should separate the voting from the discussion, but that is separate from not wanting bureaucrat chats like Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Tamzin/Bureaucrat chat (recall the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Tamzin/Bureaucrat chat) to ever happen again. I do not like votes being second guessed by bureaucrats, and I really hate how cratchats make contentious RfAs an Even Bigger Deal and make them even less pleasant for the candidates. We need more admins, we need more candidates, and so it seems to me we need to make the process less unpleasant. —Kusma (talk) 00:17, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kusma You'd need to specify what precise number a candidate must pass, then. Mach61 (talk) 00:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Two thirds. —Kusma (talk) 06:10, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't 'crats analyzing discussion make for a better result? I also doubt that 'crats lead to significantly more pressure than arguments from normal-er people. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:29, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Just to doublecheck: the only difference is that instead of discussion being on the talk page, it would be on the voting page? isaacl (talk) 02:33, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so. Currently, RfAs with a support percentage between 65% and 75% get evaluated in a discussion between a bunch of bureaucrats. This proposal seems to want to remove that and do a "percentage, make it or no adminship", though Kusma still hasn't given the percentage they want. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

As I referred to in my initial question, I'm doublechecking that this is the only difference between this proposal and proposal 8 (leaving aside the question of the exact threshold). isaacl (talk) 04:12, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I misunderstood. That would seem correct, though there are no restrictions on discussing on the talk page either. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The proposal described cratchats as an innovation that happened when RFAs were already rare. The peak year for RFA was 2007 with over 400 RFAs closed as successful, not entirely coincidentally, this was also the peak year for cratchats with the first four all happening that year. The assertion in the proposal could hardly be more incorrect, crat chats started when RFAs were at their all time peak. Wikipedia:Bureaucrat_discussion#Previous_bureaucrat_discussions. ϢereSpielChequers 07:37, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I was working from memory, but you are right about the history. But by your data, crat chats are now relatively much more common than in 2007, when they occured in under 1% of RfAs. —Kusma (talk) 09:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Relatively more common when compared to total successful RFAs. I don't have stats on how many RFAs are or were borderline, but the meaningful comparison is how many RFAs in or near the discretionary zone went to Crat chats. My assumption is that while the discretionary zone has moved, the proportion of RFAs that end in it is similar, but I don't know that. However I would assume that some crats will confidently close some discretonary zone RFAs without a cratchat - I've given hopefully uncontentious examples where I might do so myself. ϢereSpielChequers 11:40, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

• What's the point of allowing rationales if nobody is giving them weight? They count for nothing, and this proposal would turn RFA functionally into a straight vote. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

  Convincing other voters, giving feedback to the candidate and justifying your vote to later readers. Here's what a dewiki RfA looks like – a pure 2/3 vote* without discretionary zone: de:Wikipedia:Adminkandidaturen/Koenraad_7. For I guess exactly the reasons you're asking for, people put rationales next to their votes despite these having no technical direct effect on the result. Koenraad will probably forgive me using their successful RfA as an example; there are of course also sometimes more contentious RfAs full of mudslinging, although most of the drama generally happens on the talk page of such RfAs. I personally believe requiring rationales is a mistake: Letting someone oppose for private reasons is less harmful than requiring them to make up a convincing explanation for their personal dislike.
  (* 2/3 with at least 50 support votes) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:33, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 12b: Abolish crat chats and allow discretionary relisting

Basically the same rationale as proposal 12: bureaucrat chats rarely produce a result contrary to the numeric result of a 7-day RFA discussion, thus they needlessly elevate the tension of an already-stressful process. In my analysis of RFA statistics, a review of the discretionary ranges showed that, since 2009, RFAs ending with a numeric result below 70% nearly always fail, despite having expanded the discretionary range down to 65% in 2015. This suggests that bureaucrat chats aren't meaningful in determining consensus. Thus I propose that we eliminate bureaucrat chats and replace with a discretionary relisting period. If after 7 days an RFA carries a numeric result between 70% - 75%, it is automatically relisted for an additional 7 days. If the result remains below 75% after one relist then the RFA fails. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 12b)

1. As proposer. This addresses the concern of proposal 12 but still allows some additional discussion when an RFA is "close". That discussion is among members of the community, though, not a handful of bureaucrats. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 12b)

1. While I agree that crat chats are stressful, I think a two-week RfA would be exceedingly stressful for the candidate. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Nope. I'd withdraw without hesitation if my (hypothetical) RfA got relisted. — Callitropsis🌲[talk · contribs] 06:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. No. Crat chats are good, are relisting should be left to the discretion of the crats, used if required to determine a consensus where it is unclear. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 12c: Lower the high end of the bureaucrats' discretionary zone from 75% to 70%

If an RFA candidate has 70% or more support, they have earned the community's trust and the 'crats should not be obligated to determine consensus. City of Silver 21:49, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 12c)

1. Support as proposer. There have been 12 'crat chats on RFAs that had 70%+ support. Eight of those ended with promotions. Of the four that did not, two were on RFAs that should have ended with promotions. That means of 12 candidates, 10 either got promoted or should have. Hear me out and see the chart here for more.

   • The May 2007 'crat chat for User:Gracenotes was an outrage: it lasted five and a half damn days and got input from just four bureaucrats before the nominee waved the white flag. Even still, it clearly was going to end as no consensus. Gracenotes wanted to run again but never did and, sadly, hasn't been seen since 2010.
   • The October 2007 chat for User:Remember the dot ran its course but incorrectly determined there was no consensus to promote. I know that was a really different time but come on: this RFA got 73.8% support, only three 'crats voted, and the candidate's second try got 96.1% support three and a half months later. The 'crats, bless their hearts, got this one really wrong. Remember the dot remains an admin in good standing over sixteen years later.
   • The August 2012 'crat chat for User:Mlpearc ended unanimously. This was the right call given the periodic serious trouble they've gotten in since. Even still, they remain a prolific, fine contributor (under a different username) well over a decade later. This, from 11.5 years ago, was the last time a candidate with 70%+ support was rightfully not promoted.
   • User:Cyberpower678 withdrew during July 2015 'crat chat that was, incredibly, tied 5 to 5. That's the most bewildering one of these discussions I've reviewed: four of five bureaucrats who saw a consensus to promote gave strong rationales while four of five opposers did so weakly, which mirrored the support and opposition in the RFA. In January 2017, Cyberpower678 tried a second time and was promoted in a landslide. This weird discussion appears to have cost us a year and a half's worth of good tool use from this editor, who remains a trusted admin over seven years later. This, from 8.5 years ago, was the last time a candidate with 70%+ support was not promoted.

   tldr: The high end of the zone of support that requires a bureaucrat chat is 75% but it should be lowered to 70% since almost every candidate who's gotten above 70% is one that either got promoted or should have. City of Silver 21:49, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

2. Support. This is a fairly small change, and would move RfA in a slightly friendlier direction. And 70% support is enough support to be meaningful. It's barely different from the current 75%, and (in a different, private type of election format) we elect ArbCom members with less. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Crat chats are one form of added stress which we can and should avoid when possible. 70% support is still very strong. I still like having a discretionary range though, so one vote doesn't tip the scales too much. Galobtter (talk) 23:39, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per above. Mach61 22:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Support. I think we should go for even more radical things, but this proposal does two good things: potentially increase number of candidates who pass, and reduce the potential for bureaucrat chats that make the process even more painful to candidates. —Kusma (talk) 13:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 12c)

1. No. Consensus is not determined by vote counting. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC). Bureaucrats should not be told that in the range of 70-75% their judgement and discretion is not wanted. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. I am not convinced that the examples provided demonstrate a pattern needed for adjustment. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose. This would not affect candidates with more than 70%, who almost always already pass (you have to go back nine years to find a counterexample). But it would cause candidates in the high 60s (the new upper half of the discretionary range) to start passing more often, and I don't think that'd be a good thing, basically per my comment on 21b. Crat chats already reach the right outcome. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 13: Admin elections

In addition to the existing RfA process, Admin elections are held every six months.

Candidates must sign up by a certain date, followed by two phases of debate:

1. Three days for discussion and questions - no bolded !votes.
2. If candidates choose to progress, a secret ballot for a full week. Voter suffrage would initially match Arbcom elections. Candidates who achieve 70% Support would pass and become administrators.

• Further explanation is at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2021 review/Proposals/Admin elections

Support (proposal 13)

1. Support. Copied almost word-for-word from Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2021 review/Proposals#Closed: 8B Admin elections. Trying again since this was popular last time, with 72 supports and 39 opposes. I would encourage the closer to ignore all !votes that are based on technical reasons only. In my opinion, this RFC should only be to determine if community consensus exists to try some kind of admin election / secret voting system. The technical details should be worked out later. This is how it works at WP:BRFA: You get consensus for your mass edits first at a talk page, village pump, etc. Then a bot operator goes to BRFA with a technical plan and applies there in a separate process. Step 1 consensus and step 2 technical implementation are completely separated, as they should be. Honestly I am undecided if admin elections are a great idea, but I feel strongly that the close of Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2021 review/Proposals#Closed: 8B Admin elections was incorrect. The numbers from that RFC clearly indicate that editors want to try admin elections. This proposal should be given the chance to move forward. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:53, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support trial period: I'd written up something similar, and am glad to see this in action! Since this is Phase I, let's give it a try for an election cycle or two, and circle back in Phase II to see where we are. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support This is well thought out, had prior support from the community, and should be not impossible to implement, technicallly speaking. Making this a parallel process to adminship by the regular route also makes it perfect for not revamping the system from the bottom up. Soni (talk) 06:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Levivich (talk) 07:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support The great merit of this is the safety in numbers which will encourage candidates as they will not suffer the ordeal alone. And having a variety of candidates to compare and contrast seems healthy too. The technical details are no obstacle as we just need to follow the existing Arbcom process. Perhaps 3 days is not enough time for discussion and voter guides to be prepared but that's a detail too. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:47, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Strong support, voting is the right way to go for binary decisions about people. It works for Arbcom. —Kusma (talk) 08:54, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   We should definitely revisit the support percentage needed to pass after the first one or two attempts at this. —Kusma (talk) 12:29, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

7. Strong support. I would love for this to be based on a trial (per leeky, 2 cycles). The two open questions are whether people start opposing more (and thus whether 70% is okay), and whether abolishing the discretiory area is a good idea. I think we'll see a drop in the support of popular candidates, where people don't want to be the first, second or third oppose. I suspect the same might happen for candidates with a lower support %, but good to test out.
   That said, I think this fixes the three elements that make RfAs unpleasant, or even toxic: the key one is that the candidate does not have to know which individuals didn't have confidence in them. I found that the most stressful bit of my RfA: are there people I respect a lot that would not have trust in my abilities as an admin? This avoidance of making it personal is a key reason why most of civil society has secret ballots. The second bit is that this prevents candidates from constantly feeling the need to drop in to see the state of their RfA. The second bit is the circus of arguing against non-convincing or silly opposes. It's a time sink that is quite unpleasant for the candidate. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Support In part due to my comments below to WSC: I don't think permanent documentation of comments is a good thing for everyone, and this election process removes that. The discussion is what tends to create the heat, removing that just leaves potential candidates with: "I think I'd be qualified and have some use for the tools? Let's run and we'll see what happens" with a lot less permanent risk if you fail. It's an experiment worth trying. Secondly, despite my respect for the closers of the previous discussion, it's one of the most disagreeable closes I've read. This proposal already passed two years ago. I hope, if it attracts similar support this time, it is closed correctly. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Support Absolutely worth a try. Some tweaking may be required - I think another day of discussion wouldn't hurt - but radical changes are called for and this one is well thought out. —Ganesha811 (talk) 13:10, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Support I know I'm an infrequent contributor, but I've looked at the RFAs that have occurred, and they seem to have a lot of hostility that could be reduced with a simple vote. If 70% of voters think someone could be an admin, then they deserve to be an admin. Senior Captain Thrawn (talk) 13:34, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Support - I'm pretty sure this is the only way, short of scrapping RfA entirely, to deal with the problem of discussions being disrupted and the reputation of it being a toxic environment. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Seems like a pretty good compromise that maximizes the benefits of the secret ballot while keeping the discussion-RfAs. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

    Conditional weak support while the link entails shutting down discussion during the voting period, which doesn't seem very productive. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

13. For the same reasons as my own proposal eight. Mach61 (talk) 15:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
14. I'm willing to give this a shot, only because it is written as a supplement to, rather than a replacement of, the current process. As a candidate I would not have chosen this; my RFA was made easier, IMHO, by the fact that the opposers were subject to scrutiny. But perhaps not everyone feels that way, and as long as we are limiting gaming by setting reasonable thresholds for suffrage, and allowing as many editors as pass the threshold to gain the tools, I think this is a decent option. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
15. It works for arbcom, I don't see why it can't work for admins. WaggersTALK 16:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Support trial I'd prefer Xaosflux's idea outlined in their oppose below, but if this gains consensus, an RfC may always be held to fine-tune the numbers. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 16:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Support because we can always tweak things later. In particular, I suspect that the percentage for success might need to be lowered (the 2010 CUOS elections, which also used a 70% cutoff, resulted in a single successful CU and zero OS candidates). And a two-thirds supermajority is a landslide by any definition. But details can be tweaked. Let's try it. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 16:34, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Let's give this a shot. Not 100% happy with the current criteria, but we can always work those out later, and the current ones are decent enough to start with. JavaHurricane 17:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Support, why not? It's only a trial, after all. Queen of Hearts (talk • stalk • she/they) 18:23, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
20. It was a good idea in 2021, it should have been ruled as achieving consensus then, and it would still be a good idea now. --JBL (talk) 21:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Support. I like this idea a lot. It actually addresses what I believe is the real reason that good potential candidates decline to be considered: the stress of having past mistakes that are not typical of who you are, being discussed in public and leading to pile-on opposes. But there would still be discussion before the candidate decides whether or not to enter the actual vote, so it's more nuanced than a straight vote. And I do believe many voters will examine the discussion before deciding, as happens with ArbCom elections. It's a trial, and candidates are still free to use the existing RfA system if they prefer, and there's room for working out the details. This is well worth a try. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Support, per WP:NOBIGDEAL. BilledMammal (talk) 23:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Support per Tryptofish. – Hilst [talk] 02:05, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Support I like the election idea. – DreamRimmer (talk) 06:39, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Support. I've had a classical request for adminship (RfA 2019) and an ArbCom election (ACE2023), and if I had the choice between RfA-style or ACE-style permissions application, I'd always choose the latter. I'd have chosen so before and my opinion didn't change after experiencing both. Improving the election experience and lowering the bar to applying for adminship would probably result in a higher percentage of all the qualified users actually deciding to apply for adminship. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Support. Like this idea. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:02, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
27. Support per my comments in 2021 and my comments at proposals 3 and 3(b). So long as discussion is held for a few days—allowing proper scrutiny of the candidate and the chance for constructive feedback—then I don't mind if we have a consensus-building !vote or a ballot vote. — Bilorv (talk) 23:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
28. Support – Let's see how it goes. Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 09:24, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
29. This isn't a ridiculous proposal, and in fact allows for an informed discussion. Those who are concerned that RfA is stressful by its length should be delighted to support this (I think that 3 days personally is a bit too short - I don't know how about others but I can easily imagine a 5-day workweek/schoolweek so stressful that you simply are too tired to spend half an hour to see what the candidate stands for and digest the arguments, so 5 days is best so that realistically there is a chance that all people ask their questions). The voting is stressless because it's secret. Worth seeing how it goes. If the threshold is too high, we can discuss lowering it or killing the initiative altogether. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:43, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
30. Support as a good idea. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 13:33, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
31. Support, although I'd prefer a 1-week discussion period. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE) 19:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
32. Support I think this is worth a shot. A discussion period (perhaps longer than 3 days since many editors have busy RL lives!) followed by a straight !vote. I support combining this with the minimum qualifications to !vote proposal below? RegentsPark (comment) 19:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
33. Support. Not sure about some of the details, but the idea is definitely worth a shot. Giraffer (talk) 20:02, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
34. Support anything that makes RfA less of a vicious hellscape. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
35. A secret ballot is exactly what RfA needs - it takes some of the pressure off the candidates (less pile-ons), lets people oppose without fear of being unfairly scrutinized, and shows what the community truly feels about the candidate. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 02:10, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
36. Support most importantly this separates discussion from voting, so only people with relevant comments feel the need to comment. Also very importantly, it's less scary to do RfA with a bunch (hopefully!) of people than being alone. We also have evidence from ArbCom elections that this process tends to be less toxic, even for controversial candidates. This probably will need tuning (probably lower threshold to 65%?) but we should try this. Galobtter (talk) 02:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Since the vote's results has no element of judging on arguments and concerns raised might not be read by supporters, I think 70% is low enough. I agree that we can always tune after, though. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

37. This. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
38. Support. Ivan (talk) 08:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
39. Worth giving a go. No harm in trying. SilkTork (talk) 09:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
40. Support Let's give it a go, as others have said, there's no harm in trying this. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
41. Support — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 14:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
42. Support of the proposals listed here, this seems like one of the most likely to encourage more potential admins to participate, without compromising the community's desire for vetting and consensus discussions. The amount of time given to comments, questions, and votes might need adjustment after the first election. Rocfan275 (talk) 14:15, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
43. Support Bruxton (talk) 15:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
44. Support * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
45. Support I feel as if this would greatly reduce the stress and toxicity of RFA. Nagol0929 (talk) 17:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
46. Conditional support - There should be a trial period, even if it's a full year (to have two elections). Otherwise this seems like one of the proposals worth trying. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
47. Strong Support - I really like the idea, it feels like a nice addition to the RfA, as said above, it lets editors put in their opinions without being called out or criticized for what they feel. I'd also support, as the comment above states, a trial period of 6 months - 1 year, personally leaning on 6 months, because in my mind what could happen is we say it goes for 6 months, we do a vote on who likes it and who doesn't, which would probably last about a week, and then if everything goes well, we keep it in. If it's broken or people don't really like the structure, we don't use it anymore. I'd say those would be my thoughts on this, but overall I love the idea, so I give strong support in full. -- ThatOneWolf (^Chat_Edits 17:59, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
48. Support this proposal as it has a chance of resulting in more admins which is what we need - no harm in giving it a try. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 18:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
49. Support It is the right way to vote. Lightburst (talk) 18:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
50. Support - because, why not? I love policy proposals that add a different track rather than adding more lipstick to the existing pig (see the civility proposal). But let's be honest with ourselves - this won't change anything. There will still be social stigma attached to those who fail. It will quickly run into the issue that CUOS elections had when they were done by a strict election - nobody will pass, there will be endless arguing over whether the support threshold should be moved, it will be changed to 65%, still nobody will pass, and five years down the road we'll all be back at RFA review 2029 complaining about how broken the system is but unable to agree on how to fix it.

    To fix the problem, look at the system. Adminship is a big deal. You need to stand for a massive public election in front of hundreds of people who scrutinize every time you sneezed. Because the process is so intense and with such significant social consequences for failure (both during RfA, as people pile on opposes, and after, as you are known as the failure who couldn't pass an RfA), most people won't stand for election at all, further elevating the social status of admins by making it a very exclusive role. This proposal does nothing to address the core problem here: if we want more admins, if we want more people to run, it needs to be less of a big deal. People aren't shivering from anxiety as they submit an application for rollback permissions.

    If - and that's a big if - the community wants to open up adminship, you need not look beyond what was done for CUOS. Take the community out of RfA. Create a parallel process where interested candidates can submit applications against a set of criteria for evaluation, privately so there wouldn't be social consequences for submitting a refused application. But alas, such a proposal would never get sufficient support, because despite not liking RfA nobody really wants to change it. RfA sits in the perfect middle, balanced between different considerations in a way that nobody really likes but nobody can agree to change. So we might as well try this - I'll go out and get another few tubes of lipstick, and see you all in 2029. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 18:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

51. Support but I would allow users to comment when they vote, and those comments should be available to crats if the candidate is around the 65-75% mark. But if we have too many candidates, it could become unwieldy... SportingFlyer T·C 19:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
52. Support – Hmm... If this proposal allows co-existence of (rather than replace) the existing RfA, then I'm all up for secret ballots. George Ho (talk) 20:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
53. Support. The most objective process I have seen on this poll. Proper discussion and then the vote. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
54. Support, this is long overdue, a very sensible alternative. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:10, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
55. Support - I favor secret voting. The 2021 vote was improperly closed. Carrite (talk) 21:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
56. Support since I did last time and haven't had cause to change my opinion since then. XOR'easter (talk) 22:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
57. Support I'm not sure how much better this is than RfA, but don't see a reason not to try it. Banedon (talk) 03:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
58. Support - like I keep saying, RFA already functions as a straight vote. Allowing a structured period of questions for the candidate and community comment, followed by something like SecureVote, seems like a reasonable method to try. This makes RFA like Arbcom elections, which I don't think will be less stressful, but I like the idea. In the current process, late questions and comments can impact a discussion unfairly. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
59. Support trials per theleekycauldron Yoblyblob (Talk) :) 18:37, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
60. Sure. The Night Watch (talk) 01:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
61. IMO, this deserves a trial. I strenuously hope it will achieve full implementation and believe it will serve as a complementary process to RfA and an overall betterment to admin replenishment.--John Cline (talk) 09:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
62. Worth a shot. Stifle (talk) 11:14, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
63. We go round this cycle of looking how to improve RfA regularly, and while I've stepped away from the encyclopedia, I did have this proposal noted to me because it's a copy of something I proposed a few years ago. I strongly believed in the concept then, and I strongly believe in it now. We will never please all the people, all the time and once we are up and running, there are changes that we can make (voter suffrage, or support percentages etc) - but let's not let perfection stand in the way of good. This makes RfA less of a hell hole for individuals, while keeping scrutiny and discussion of candidates. It allows a complete alternative to RfA for those who simply believe the entire process isn't worth it.
    It has a real potential for real change, and we should try this. Worm^TT(talk) 11:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
64. Support - seems worth trying Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:22, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
65. Support looks good to try. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
66. Intrigued. Would basically want what Xaosflux suggests below (currently oppose #4), but I'm weakly interested to see how it goes. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:20, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
67. Support Great idea. Leijurv (talk) 15:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
68. Support Supported this last time as a complementary process and my opinion has not changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:11, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
69. Support I'm happy to give this a go. If this proposal passes though I feel that some more discussion is needed to determine the suffage requirements. If the closer intends to do it as part of this discussion my preference would be that it reflects extended-confirmed requirements rather than ArbCom elections. Individual admins have signficant more power than a singe arbitrator given that arbitrators need to have a majority to do something and their terms are limited to 2 years. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
70. Support. This makes a lot of sense to me. Real potential to de-dramatise the whole process by having a batch of people up at once and taking away the public support/oppose votes. Worth a go, in my opinion. There might need to be a further discussion of exactly who can vote in such an election, but I wouldn't want that to get in the way of making this happen. The Land (talk) 13:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 13)

1. Strong Oppose - What we have now is a hybrid of CON and voting. But it still has discretionary closure. It still has discussion throughout. This proposal removes the last vestiges of CON, and turns it into a vote. Strong Oppose. - jc37 08:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose voting is appropriate for picking a set number of people such as for Arbcom. Especially when we need eight people and we are OK with several qualified but not quite so popular/esteemed candidates being rejected. But RFA is more like a driving test, we want everyone who meets the standard to pass, and everyone who doesn't meet the standard to fail - but to know why they failed as like me, they may pass on a second attempt a few months later after addressing some of the reasons why they failed the first time. With an election the unsuccessful candidates won't know why they were unsuccessful. There is also the issue of removing crat discretion, currently a candidate who had mostly moral supports could fail while a candidate where the opposes mostly marked themselves weak could pass. but if you move to a simple vote the reverse happens. ϢereSpielChequers 11:29, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   You describe what RFA was like in 2007, it is currently not at all like a "driving test". Current RFA practice does not produce the 30+ admins we need for sustainability each year. It keeps out or completely disillusions failed candidates (MB left, Vami IV would never have run again). It does also not keep out people who should not be admins (Eostrix, Wifione). Maybe it should be a driving test, but driving tests usually test the candidate against the rules and have one examiner, not 250 examiners who all argue with each other about how to assess the candidate and what the Highway Code says and what the Highway Code should say. Voting keeps the community element but removes the heat. —Kusma (talk) 11:46, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I agree that RFA is not producing anywhere near enough new admins, I actually think we need more than thirty a year as a minimum. If admins stayed active for an average of ten years then fifty a year would maintain a cadre of 500. But my driving test analogy is not based on how well RFA works, it is based on how it needs to work. We have no limit on the number of mops, the more admins we have the closer we can get to the model of a self organising community with admins being editors who also do a bit of mopping. By contrast ARBCOM is a committee that has to have limited numbers in order to function. When you have unlimited numbers to appoint and you want all qualified candidates appointed you need a driving test type of system. When you have a limited number of posts and you want the best available group of people to serve, you want an election system. ϢereSpielChequers 12:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   I think implicitly, this proposal does wish to remove the feedback. Receiving feedback from ~200 of your peers, many of whom you may have interacted with and respect, can be quite tough. In a workplace, (IME), one gets feedback from a select number of people, usually your manager. Getting feedback from everyone, in a process that permanently documents everything good/bad you've done at WP:Requests for adminship/Your Name is a bit daunting. (In the workplace, feedback given is pretty much forgotten about by everyone but perhaps the recipient.) In my view, the lack of feedback creates a potential feature not a bug. For those who want feedback, they can make a normal WP:RFA. For those who do not, they can go via the election method. This proposal leaves choice with the candidate. In your case, you could've continued to make a normal RFA if you wanted feedback. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Oppose I believe this would lead to a situation in which individual candidates are not properly vetted. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 13:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Conditional Oppose as-written, but Conditional Weak Support in general. As to the specifics that I think are problems: 3-days is not long enough for the first phase, should be at least 1-week. Would like to see a 1 week discussion, perhaps with a 2-week overlapping voting period. As far as voter suffrage goes, ACE suffrage is a manual process that is very complicated, would want to limit suffrage to automated functions available in securepoll already (max-registration, not-sitewide-blocked, not-bot, min-edits). If the parameters were adjusted the conditionals above would be satisfied for me. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Novem Linguae: how attached are you to the suffrage limits. Basically, if it can't be automated (e.g. "edits in last x days" or "edits by namespace" sort of stuff) cutoffs that SP can have it means someone needs to manually build the electoral rolls. Obvious things can be handled by scrutineers (e.g. no voters that start with "Renamed user" / "Vanished user" ) aren't cumbersome but programmatically enforcing something like that goes back to requiring a whitelist. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:26, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'd like to see some kind of suffrage limit. I think this is our best defense against sockpuppets, and our best defense against having to checkuser everybody. But of course, the exact criteria are negotiable. I think this proposal currently proposes copying ace? Which of the ace criteria is labor intensive and requires creating a whitelist? That's the one you propose deleting, correct? –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:29, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Novem Linguae limits are absolutely possible, however some can be used easily and some can not be. The automated things built in to secure poll include:

   • Has the voter been registered for at least x days?
   • Is the editor site blocked?
   • Does the editor have at least x total edits?
   • Is the editor in the bots group?.

   Medium-easy items that would not be onerous for scrutineers are:

   • Does the username start with "Renamed" or "Vanished"
   • Does the username end with "bot" and is not a false positive like User:The Brown Sabot (to catch unflagged bots).

   Most anything else involving a calculation is hard. Specifically from ACE the hard things are:

   • Have 150 mainspace edits by a specific cut off date
   • Have 10 live edits (in any namespace) within a specific window of dates.

   — xaosflux ^Talk 19:48, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Assuming a SecurePoll implementation, I think removing those last two bullets would be fine. Although as you probably know since I've stated it a few times, I'm really hoping this RFC will be less about technical details and more just finding a consensus to try some kind of admin elections. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:48, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Novem Linguae There is general support for occasional scheduled admin elections via SP. (FWIW - If it was an on-wiki non-secret-ballot vote, abuse filter could handle the first items as well.) With those tech details out of the way, I'm more support than oppose. I think we differ on the discussion/voting lengths - but that's really just something for everyone to come to an agreement on. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Xaosflux, do you know dewiki's criteria for automatically receiving the "editor" permission? They contain absurdly specific requirements like "There are at least 15 edits by the user that have a time difference of at least 3 days to each other" and somehow they automated this in a MediaWiki extension, without a bot or human having to do it. So I'd say everything is possible. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   @ToBeFree yes, however that is dependent upon custom software (mw:Extension:FlaggedRevs) that is not installed here on the English Wikipedia and has been deprecated for a decade. It also doesn't have anything to do with Secure Poll. It is indeed not impossible to write such software, but unless there is a large group of software developers that will commit to building and maintaining such software it isn't realistically going to happen. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:13, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   FlaggedRevs is installed on enwiki, but has most of its features turned off via a feature flag. This extension is a nightmare to configure (ive written some patches for it) and i do not recommend enabling more of its features on enwiki. –Novem Linguae (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   And it would still do nothing for automating securepoll. (At the best it could possibly help build a do-nothing-group, so that creating a manual list from the do-nothing-group could be easier). But this goes back to main question of do we want to build a supervisor-of-elections group that will need to do this work? It is possible (zhwiki uses a manual list in their SP admin elections - I don't know how complicated their suffrage requirements are though. Also keep in mind that almost everything at enwiki is orders of magnitude more work than other projects due to our size.) — xaosflux ^Talk 18:14, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   How much "discussion only" time would you consider enough before editors are allowed to vote? Soni (talk) 20:17, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Soni I think a week for discussion is good because not everyone edits every day. Assuming this is secret ballot, I'd be fine with voting being open at the same time. This is also assuming the the discussion is also the Q&A period. Three days is pretty tight for Q&A, especially if a question comes in on day 2 for example. Other elections (ACE, Stewards, etc) are usually open for weeks at a time for comparison. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'd also be fine with QA/Discuss being a week, then a week of voting. Or QA/Discuss being a week, with a 2 week voting period (starts at same time, runs a week). Keep in mind, SP is going to be a slow process, as we are a large project and scrutineering takes time. Expect it could take a couple of weeks after the election to get any results. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   The original proposal is slightly too vague for any of us to say, but my interpretation of it was that the Q&A and discussion would continue to be open during the voting period. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:17, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Yeah I likewise prefer 'M days of "Discussion and Q&A only" and then 'N days of voting+discussions+Q&A'. Soni (talk) 04:05, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

   JBL has pointed out to me that, according to the link, this is not the case. I've changed my !vote to a weak support. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

5. Oppose I think the vetting of candidates is important. I don't think many editors would read the discussion before voting - and having multiple candidates on one ballot would make it even less likely that editors might be aware of concerns other editors have about a candidate. While I do believe the serving as an admin is no big deal, I trust the community to identify concerns about temperament, and the shorthand way of identifying if concerns exist is through the oppose and neutral sections. --Enos733 (talk) 18:23, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Weak oppose RfA should not be 100% voting (even though it is quite a bit a vote) but I'm not super opposed to trying it out. ‍ Relativity 23:23, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Weak oppose if this was implemented, I would not be too bothered, but I think the public system is better for telling editors what their strengths and weaknesses are so that, regardless of outcome, they can work to make improvements in their Wikipedia editing. I think a voting system would make this less likely that editors would comments and give their thoughts, as evidenced by the hundreds of people who vote in ArbCom elections who do not comment on any of the candidate pages. Z1720 (talk) 01:30, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   Weak oppose as written. 70% would be too high. I do not want potential candidates to not get their mops, and if it had been shown to be too high no one would want to have elections. Also, given how elections had worked in Chinese Wikipedia I don't believe it would help with the other problem, that Wikipedia needs more admins. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 12:22, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   What would be a reasonable percentage according to you? Soni (talk) 13:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   Can you talk a bit more about how elections have worked on Chinese Wikipedia, and what lessons have been learned from that? –Novem Linguae (talk) 16:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   Since the vote's results has no element of judging on arguments and concerns raised might not be read by supporters, I think 70% is low enough. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   You know what, I'm going to strike this. There was a huge RfC for RfA reform in Chinese Wikipedia a few months ago [3], and there was a subsequent discussion [4] for how much the percentage cutoff should be lowered. Chinese Wikipedia's community has a lot of trust issues, and even then they had consensus for decreasing the whopping 80% requirement down to 75% after what they have seen from SecurePoll. Note that at the same time they found consensus for appointing temporary admins for six months with supports ranging from 65% - 75% range. I'm still worried that the anonymity would decrease the support rate and thus make election candidates harder than a public RfA, but I think I don't hold that concern for a trial anymore after thinking about it for some time. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 14:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

8. Either we have one or the other. Redundant processes on Wikipedia that have the same end result tend to get merged together eventually. Steel1943 (talk) 02:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   Could you provide some examples of alternative pathways being merged? Aaron Liu (talk) 02:52, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   Best example I can provide is WP:NFCR and WP:PUF into WP:FFD. I believe most failed proposals fail because at least one aspect of the proposal's functionality is already present somewhere else. Steel1943 (talk) 18:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   Well, these still had the same paradigm in processes, unfortunately. The only difference was that NFCR didn't have a mandated closing time, so it was mostly an unnecessary "content fork". IMO, that doesn't hold true for this proposal. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   Thanks for calling my argument a strawman, though I disagree with that assessment. Thanks to the redundancy, discussions were closed to "wrong venue" quite often prior to the merging of the forums. I can see a similar issue here. Steel1943 (talk) 22:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Steel1943: If this proposal were planned to replace the current RFA in 6-12 months, would you support it then? Or do you disagree with this one beyond "2 parallel processes" Soni (talk) 19:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Soni: "If this proposal were planned to replace the current RFA in 6-12 months, would you support it then?" Since that would be a replacement instead of redundancy, possibly. Steel1943 (talk) 19:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

9. Oppose vetting of candidates is important. This would require more upfront time investment to do adequate due diligence, and this is a non-starter for folks who are short on time thanks to IRL commitments (myself included). -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   To me it sounds like discussion is open for the entire period, including voting. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   JBL has pointed out to me that, according to the link, this is not the case. I've changed my !vote to a weak support. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

10. Same as my opposition to another proposal. No hidden votes, ever. Acalamari 04:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Oppose There are good reasons why we've never done this, nor should we. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

    And what would these reasons be? Aaron Liu (talk) 13:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

12. Conditional Oppose I like the simplicity of this, overall, I just feel a 70 percent threshold is a bit too low and would prefer it be set at the upper end of extant, non-discretionary close spectrum (i.e. 75 percent) Chetsford (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

General discussion (proposal 13)

What does "In addition to the existing RfA process" mean? Does the same person have to pass both the existing RfA process & the elections, or does it mean one can become an admin via either the existing RfA process or election? Banedon (talk) 05:37, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

The latter. Candidates can choose which process to use. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:18, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 14: Suffrage requirements

Currently All Wikipedians—including those without an account or not logged in ("anons")—are welcome to comment and ask questions in an RfA, but numerical (#) "votes" in the Support, Oppose, and Neutral sections may only be placed by editors while logged in to their accounts. In practice, editors with low edit count who cast "votes" are usually suspected to be trolls or socks, and the discussions around reverting or striking these votes just lead to more unnecessary heat. It would be easier to just set a minimum bar for participation. For example, we could just use the rules from the Arbcom elections (account is 2+ months old, has 150+ mainspace edits and has made ten edits in the last year).

Support (proposal 14)

1. As proposer. I would also be OK with the "lazy" option of using 30/500 protection on all RfAs as long as non-ECP and IP editors can use the talk page and have their comments (not their votes) copied to the main RfA page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kusma (talk • contribs)
2. Anyone can edit kind of makes sense; anyone can vote does not. I'd support regardless of the details of the criteria (within reason). Levivich (talk) 13:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I, too, would support this regardless of the criteria, within reason. It's long been evident that experienced editors are more forgiving, and other things being equal more likely to make reasoned !votes, than inexperienced ones. Comparing admin !votes to non admins, for instance (I'm aware that's an extreme example); my supposedly contentious RFA had no current admins in opposition. Tamzin's, the poster-child for contentious RFAs, had admins split 100-17 (if my count is correct). SFR had admins split 69-19. The latter two wouldn't have gone to a crat-chat at all if admins had been the only ones !voting. I'm not suggesting we go that far by any means, but we need to recognize that RFA isn't really an exercise in democracy, and analogies between Wikipedia governance and RL government break down very quickly. RFA is intended to assess whether candidates are suitable for adminship and have the community's trust. It's not unreasonable to limit who can comment in such a discussion. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:17, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
4. I would be inclined to oppose this as a solution in search of a problem, but given that proposal 13 currently appears likely to pass, this would be a useful safeguard against vote stacking. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:23, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Proposal 13 seems already inclined towards implementing its own suffrage requirements per the discussion under Xaosflux. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Perhaps, but that doesn't seem to be stated in the proposal itself. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   It actually is; from the linked Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2021 review/Proposals/Admin elections:

   Voter suffrage should initially match the Arbcom elections i.e. registered over 1 month before election, 150 edits by election, 10 edits in the year running up to election, not sitewide blocked during the election, not vanished, and not a bot - though the suffrage decisions could be changed in future.

   Aaron Liu (talk) 21:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

5. As an accurate description of policy as already practiced. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
6. At least semi-protect all RfAs. My own received such helpful questions from non-autoconfirmed users as "do you have a cock or a cunt or neither of them" and "If you do not withdraw your RFA within 24 hours, I am going to microwave my dog. Do you have it in your heart to add the death of an innocent animal to your name?" (And those are just the printable ones.) That sort of thing doesn't bother me, but the constructive-to-nonconstructive ratio here is extremely low, and making highly visible pages easy targets for vandalism (or, worse, subtle trolling of this variety) is just obviously not a good idea. Will this fix RfA? Of course not. But rejecting small fixes just because they don't solve the entirety of the problem is not a good strategy for making this process better. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:14, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support I would support autoconfirmed or ECP (realistically, most votes I've seen are already ECP). Sungodtemple (talk • contribs) 22:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Support Anons can have good observations about a candidate too. ‍ Relativity 23:27, 24 February 2024 (UTC) Oops, read this wrong. Just goes to show... gotta do your research before you add your !vote. ‍ Relativity 23:29, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Support at least autoconfirmation. My reasoning has less to do with potential disruption, and more to do with the fact that RfA is supposed to reflect whether or not the community trusts an editor with the admin tools. A brand new user has not been part of the community long enough to understand what adminship is or how to assess whether a candidate can be trusted with it. Sdkb ^talk 00:45, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Support – Logically all new editor votes are often socks, but I would strongly support sufferage requirements because inexperienced users may not take the right decision whether to support, oppose or be neutral. I would recommend the sufferage to be at least a month of editing, having 150 mainspace edits, and 250/300 total edits, and not be partial blocked or santioned. Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 09:13, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
11. One of my memories from my early days on Wikipedia was when I first came across the RFA process, realised there was some unwritten rule as to the minimum criteria !voters needed to meet, couldn't work out what the unwritten rule was and whether I met it, so I left the RFA area for a while. I think we should set a minimum threshold such as extended confirmed, doing so would make us more open to newbies as they'd either know that their participation would be welcome, or know how far they were from meeting the criteria. Bonus points if we could do this programmatically so only extended confirmed editors could view let alone edit RFA pages, this would reduce the drama as the page would no longer be public for all to see. ϢereSpielChequers 11:47, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Per the proposal, with semi-protection of RfAs as the minimum. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Agree with the rationale, but we seem to disagree with the franchise threshold. I think that whatever allows you to access WP:LIBRARY should be the minimum. Why? It's ECP, but we make sure that people who broke the rules do not get to choose those who are about to enforce them (including against them) - it will also be a disincentive to do all sorts of weird stuff that's against the rules (the disenfranchisement will only last for the block's duration). Also, the requirements are such that you still have to be at least minimally active in WP's workings and that there's a large cooldown period so that we know they are long enough to know what we stand for for better or worse. The voting page should be therefore ECP-protected to prevent edits from non-ECP users, but the transcluded discussion and Q&A pages should not as a general matter be protected. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Per WereSpielChequers. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 01:58, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Weak support Despite all our repeated statements, RfA is not really a !vote, except within the discretionary range. Given that it is a sort of vote, some control, in principle, over who votes is not a bad idea. Weak support mainly because I'm not sure it will make a difference since the ones that end up failing typically fail because of issues brought up in oppose votes (ok, ok - !votes) and, generally, contentious RfAs do end up in the discretionary range anyway.--RegentsPark (comment) 19:27, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Support. Although I would much prefer suffrage requirements that can be checked with extremely low effort, such as an edit count or extended confirmed, rather than something that requires complex calculations. has made ten edits in the last year is a complex calculation that cannot be checked at a glance. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Better than what we currently got, though I'd rather extended confirmed be the requirement. Steel1943 (talk) 02:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Makes sense to me. popodameron ⁠talk 03:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Realistically, I don't know how someone is supposed to evaluate someone for adminship without at least a few hundred edits under their belt. Also per WereSpielChequers. I'd support an automatic threshold of ECP; I think anything else is too much work. Galobtter (talk) 03:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Support per WereSpielChequers. Butterdiplomat (talk) 04:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Support per Sdkb. Make RfA EC protected and allow others to make comments on the talk page. I had to go back and check in order to find out (to my surprise) that the first RfA I'd ever participated in was Rosguill's, which was after three years and 3,000 edits. StonyBrook _babble 12:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Support I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. This might actually help a little. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 15:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Support per nom and most of the comments above. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
24. The number of experienced RfA regulars is large enough that the participation of new users has little practical effect anyway, so no potential for harm. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Support: I support a minimum threshold for voting and I think it has the potential to make RfA more bearable. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Support - Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
27. Support either the arbcom or ECP requirments. This makes it very likely that the voters know policy well, and also makes it more likely that they know the nominee themselves. GrayStorm^{(Talk|Contributions)} 23:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
28. Support. If it is done for Arbcom, makes even more sense for RfA. Why would a brand new editor with zero experience opine on a tenured Wikipedia editor who has given many years to the platform? Should be ECP? Aszx5000 (talk) 20:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
29. Support with the comment that it should match an existing class to make it easier for editors to understand eligibility and for ease of implementation unless there is a compelling reason to change it. If there continue to be a significant number of troll edits using the Arbcom elections requirements we should consider upping the requirement to extended confirmed. I was surprised the first time I got an alert of participate in a RfA as I thought myself too inexperienced at that point to have an informed opinion. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 21:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
30. Support This is something that may not really change anything, but probably won't hurt anything either. It certainly seems odd that a totally new user would be proficient enough at Wikipedia to judge whether someone should be an admin. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:12, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
31. Support I'm not sure this would significantly help detoxify RfA (though I'm not certain I agree with the premise it's toxic in the first place), however, I'd support this as a more general gamesproofing measure. Chetsford (talk) 02:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
32. Support Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
33. Support: anyone with under 30/500 is unlikely to have a meaningful contribution to evaluating a candidate. And as others noted, while not a huge problem, such !votes can be disruptive, and the solution is trivially easy to implement. Owen× ☎ 00:17, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
34. Support Unlikely to change outcomes, but may take some of the heat out of the process. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
35. Support My preference is to use extended-confirmed as the requirement but I'm okay with duplicating the ArbCom election voting requirements. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 14)

1. I have seen no indication that the issue at RfA is due to anons or low-activity users !voting. In fact, my impression is that extended-confirmed users are just as capable of causing disruption at RfA as any other user type. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Don't think we should disenfranchise contributors from participating in discussions based on this. It's not a vote. If we did want to make this a vote, then I'd be open to revisiting but would prefer something simple (like must be autconfirmed). — xaosflux ^Talk 14:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   If the actual-vote option passes, I think I'd be OK with starting with the QA/Discussion is limited to SPP on such listings, and enforced that way. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:56, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

   If this is going to pass, and the question is "what level" - I'd rather us start at semi-page protection. As with the other section the "Arbcom elections" bespoke suffrage requirements are not something that can be automated - so it would be "here's a banner with the rules, don't break it -- clerks will just remove your contribution". Going with something liek SPP or ECP is much more feasible. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

3. I don't think it's vitally important new users vote, but since they almost never do I fail to see a problem that needs solving. Mach61 (talk) 15:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I'm new to enwiki and even newer to RfA so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't think edits by new accounts/ips are anywhere near the main cause of disruption and stress at RfAs. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 16:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC) Moving to support Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 01:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

4. I had to read the proposal a couple of times, to fully understand what parts are "currently" and what parts would be changes. The change would be that we would institute something like the last sentence, starting "For example... ". I have a hard time picturing a past RfA where the users who would have been disenfranchised by this proposal were the ones who made it problematic. This won't do anything to make RfA go more smoothly, and one of the reasons we have bureaucrats evaluate the discussion is so that they can discount comments from clueless users. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Strong Oppose per Xaosflux and WaltCip. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 20:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose Let's not make the mistake that it's new editors that are causing the issues of toxicity, increasing standards, and oppose reply pile-ons. Seriously doubt disenfranchising them will do anything but worsen issues. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 13:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Oppose Barring someone from commenting (not just voting) is crossing a bridge too far. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 04:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Oppose Ixtal hit the nail on the head -Fastily 07:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Oppose 10 edits in the last year requirement. Ivan (talk) 08:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose New and low-level users are already subject to scrutiny when they !vote and they are rarely the source of toxicity and grief. Disenfranchising a swathe of people who are not the cause of any problems is fundamentally wrong. - SchroCat (talk) 10:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Oppose I do not think this is a problem that needs solving. SportingFlyer T·C 19:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose strongly. Admins are admins for all users, not just those who achieve an arbitrary level of activity, and discussions on their appointment should have no more entrance requirements than the reasonable restriction of requiring an account. Suspected socks can be reported just like anywhere else, and this isn't a good approach to low-effort votes. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose per Ivanvector. RfA is not a vote but a discussion and discussions should be open to all. Does anyone supporting this have any examples that this is indeed a widespread problem in dire need of fixing? Regards SoWhy 20:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Per Ivanvector, SC, and Ixtal. AryKun (talk) 19:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose. While I understand the intent, either RFA is a vote, or it isn't. If it is a vote, then all registered editors, regardless of tenure, are allowed to vote. In reality, while we restrict voting to those who are "age of majority", within that rather large group we don't restrict voting to only those who are up to speed on politics and current affairs. That would be silly and also impossible to enforce. With a few narrow exceptions (i.e. certain severe criminal convictions in certain jurisdictions) anyone who is 16/18/21 is allowed to vote in any election. As long as we continue to have watchlist notices for RFAs, we either need to A). Stop assuming that every newish user who votes is a sock, or B). Disable the watchlist for new users entirely. On the contrary, if we say that RFA isn't a vote, then it should be treated like XFD, where the outcome is determined not by counting votes but by the strength of the arguments, and comments from newbies or other users who clearly have no idea what they are talking about are given significantly less weight. Under this system, all comments should be supported by some rationale, and there should be a limit as to how far "Support per nom" or "Oppose per X" can go before independent reasoning becomes necessary. We need to decide whether RFA is a vote, or a discussion based on consensus. This half-and-half thing where it's "kind of sorta but not really a vote" and "well it is a vote but only established users are given weight" does no good. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 00:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
16. While I do understand the goals of the proposal, !voting by inexperienced editors or trolls doesn't seem like it would affect the results all that much. Secondly, I think I have seen more people that are extended confirmed causing more problems than newer editors. Finally, it is not exactly impossible (though tedious) to have sockpuppets become extended confirmed. ✶Quxyz✶ 17:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

General discussion (proposal 14)

Putting this out as a slight improvement in case the more radical proposals fail. —Kusma (talk) 12:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Voters should be extended confirmed. There needs to be evidence that voters understand Wikipedia with enough experience to vote, and extended confirmed would meet that threshold. Steel1943 (talk) 02:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

• Only suppporting this for any vote-only (or secure-vote) process (like proposal 13), if any are implmented. Oppose this for our currrent process and anything else. - jc37 02:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

• Would people under the requirement be able to comment on the talk page? --Aaron Liu (talk) 12:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

• no potential for harm, Pppery by harm do you mean an effect on the results or on the voters themselves? — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 12:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  I mean no effect on the results. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:47, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the clarification. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 22:10, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 15: Community-based process for appointing CheckUsers and Oversighters

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I think we should consider the idea of having the community appoint CUs and OSs in a similar process that RFAs are run by. I think in this way, the community has more of a say in who is most qualified for these positions. Interstellarity (talk) 01:22, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

Support (proposal 15) As proposer. I think just like RFBs and interface admins, these should have a higher level of community consensus compared to RFAs. I would be open to saying with ArbCom approval if there are any opposition. Interstellarity (talk) 01:22, 25 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose (proposal 15) Weak oppose – While this is helpful, unfortunately CU and OS permissions are very restricted groups and user who want them are ought to be chosen by Arbcom. It also require ensuring that users sign the agreements and to follow the policies. I cannot support this unless a support vote would change my mind. Toadette (Let's discuss together!) 09:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC) The current system for appointing CU and OS works very well at getting enough candidates and pretty well at getting the right people. RFA is a less good system on both those criteria. If we were going to swap them, I wouldn't swap them in the direction that this proposal suggests. ϢereSpielChequers 11:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC) Ain't broke, don't fix it. —Kusma (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2024 (UTC) I do think that we should disconnect CU/OS from arbcom entirely. A lot of people (including most arbcom members) disagree. However, I don't think squeezing something like this in to this RFC is the way to go about that change. — xaosflux Talk 13:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC) General discussion (proposal 15) I feel like this is out of scope for RfA reform. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:25, 25 February 2024 (UTC) I agree that this proposal isn't within the area of RfA and ought to be made separately. (Note it would require amendment to the arbitration policy.) isaacl (talk) 01:29, 25 February 2024 (UTC) Where would the correct area be to propose this? Interstellarity (talk) 01:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC) probably WP:PROPOSE :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 02:20, 25 February 2024 (UTC) Every non-checkuser and non-oversighter being elected to ArbCom is a community-appointed checkuser and oversighter. There could be a process that is separate from ArbCom seats, but we should at least not pretend that all checkusers and oversighters got their privileges from ArbCom rather than the community. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC) Not exactly. Arbcom is not required to appoint their own members as CUOS's, they just historically do. Also, there is no way arbcom is going to appoint a general editor that has a public showing of (50%+1 vote - the min threshold needed to get on to arbcom) confidence alone to these roles. — xaosflux Talk 16:06, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 16: Allow the community to initiate recall RfAs

Administrators currently retain their permissions indefinitely, and the community itself has no means to revoke administrator permissions once they are given. The only way to remove an administrator is for the Arbitration Committee to open a case and rule against the administrator in light of egregious conduct. There is no means to remove permissions for administrators who have lost the trust of the community unless they have committed egregious or ban-worthy offenses.

If this proposal passes, the community will be able to revoke the permissions of an administrator pending a new RfA. A recall will occur if a consensus is found to do so at WP:AN, WP:ANI, or WP:XRV, similar to how community bans are currently handled. The administrator will then be required to pass a new RfA to retain administrator permissions.

Benefits of this proposal would be that administrators can be better held accountable for repeatedly acting against consensus, failing to abide by policy, or other serious infractions that do not rise to the level of ARBCOM. It would create a binding alternative to the currently optional recall process, which has been criticized for its inefficacy. The potential drawback is that it would limit an administrator's ability to take necessary but controversial actions that may prompt a kneejerk recall: there are ways this could be mitigated, such as requiring only a simple majority at RfA to be reconfirmed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Update: I've struck WP:XRV as a forum for recall per the comments below. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC) WP:ANI has also been struck. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (Proposal 16)

1. General support for the idea. It would need some kind of gatekeeping to filter out serious recalls from frivolous ones. If there were RFA suffrage requirements, those should also be recall suffrage requirements. Levivich (talk) 05:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
2. I don't see why not, but one should set the threshold for initiating recall RfAs fairly high. Banedon (talk) 05:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Agree with nom, plus having an easier way to remove adminship might reduce the tension at RFAs, which I believe to be the result of the perceived "high stakes" of granting adminship. The main issue is where to set the bar for initiating the recall RfA. Setting the bar too low has obvious issues per the arguments above, but setting it too high defeats the purpose of having this easier process for desysop; editors might simply bring the case to arbcom if they believe it's too hard to gain consensus to even start the reconfirmation. Liu1126 (talk) 11:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   There's also the question of how the bar should be set. Nominator suffrage requirements (like only allowing EC editors to start reconfirmations) are the easiest to implement, but this disadvantages newer editors. Requiring prior discussions and consensus of wrongdoing may be better, but would be tricky to set the bar; having one admin action overturned at WP:XRV probably isn't cause for a desysop, but requiring multiple such discussions makes the situation ripe for arbitration anyway (unless arbcom decides that reconfirmation is also included in the "dispute resolution methods" that need to be exhausted first). Liu1126 (talk) 11:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Support: Currently, the threshold to desysop is a lot higher than to indeff a rank-and-file editor. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
5. While Arbcom seems to have made it easier to hear cases of admin misconduct in recent years (eg: User:Athaenara), I'm still supportive of the general principle that it should be easier to demote admins without having to drag things through Arbcom. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support in principle. It would have to be well advertised, as RfAs are now, to avoid undue influence in either direction by a small group of friends or foes. We should require a substantial quorum to start the process. However, that might be difficult to collect: while the vast majority of admins deserve praise for carrying out a wonderful job, the few who don't can be intimidating. Certes (talk) 13:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Perennial proposal, still good. If we already trust the community to elect, we should trust them to remove. Other WMF projects do this Mach61 (talk) 13:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   I actually think the community would be more conservative than ArbCom currently is Mach61 (talk) 13:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

8. It works for removing all other permissions (e.g. rollback, autopatrolled), so why wouldn't it work for adminship? As for frivolous requests, I would point to the (lack of) frivolous requests to remove those other permissions. I would also expect admins to have thicker skins than rollbackers, so I don't see why the former needs more "protection" from frivolous requests than the latter. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 13:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Needed — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 14:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Idea support, oppose as written. This proposal is premature. This is something that needs a lot of workshopping and would do best as a standalone proposal. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Spitballing: Have a "Requests for recall" page, if ten editors (feel free to impose sufferage requirements) ask for recall within one week a vote is started. Mach61 (talk) 14:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Please god no. Every admin with a backbone has at least 10 detractors. In a wiki this large, you will piss off some people, more if you're doing admin things. Any community recall process needs to be a fairly high threshold so we don't give admins an strong incentive against our high importance areas.

    Otherwise my take is identical to @Xaosflux:. The heart is in the right place, but I'd like more details fleshed out. What'd be confirmation RFA percentages? Would we have recalls triggered by all of these forums? Etc. Soni (talk) 15:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

11. Putting my formal weak support support down. Full comment just above Soni (talk) 15:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Needs revision with further RfCs, but I support the general concept. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 16:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Conditional on some workshopping. The idea is solid, but it needs some protection against witch-hunts and hot-headed behavior. A minimum time-frame is a good idea, per Kusma below; I agree that ANI is a terrible venue for this, and a dedicated board is probably better; and we'd need a similar pass/discretionary zone/no pass system, or frame the consensus-determination around "has this user violated ADMINACCT/ADMINCOND", so that it doesn't become a gameable voting exercise. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    I'd say we use AN. Currently it's only clearly used for closure reviews and news z Aaron Liu (talk) 17:10, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

14. Unfortunately this is not likely to go anywhere, because like most RfA reforms people support it in the abstract but not when a concrete proposal comes up, but sure, let's give this another go. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
15. I'll give moral support to the idea of fleshing this out with details that are lacking now. I'm having flashbacks to WP:CDARFC, from the wiki-Cretaceous period. What I think has changed over the years is that ArbCom has gotten good at dealing with those admins who should be removed, something that ArbCom years ago was not good at. So what I have to be persuaded of is: how would this be different from a request to ArbCom? I suppose the answer is that ArbCom wouldn't be needed in the process if the community could do it on our own, but please follow where I'm going with this. I think it would be a net negative to have admins subject to removal without a thoughtful examination of the evidence. So one solution to that would be to have this process lead to a recommendation to ArbCom to actually make the final decision. But that's just a kludgy way to do WP:RFAR. Otherwise, there has to be a way to prevent unfair passions from running away with removal of a good admin who made a tough call, and also there has to be a way to prevent a popular but flawed admin from being overly defended by their friends. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:18, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
16. Good idea. Kneejerk/revenge recalls could be mitigated by a rule that a recall may not be begun for a year (say) after a failed recall. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 10:31, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

    I would be in favour of such a rule. Soni (talk) 15:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

17. My belief is that this is already possible based on a straight-forward reading of WP:CONSENSUS and WP:ADMIN; might as well formalize it. BilledMammal (talk) 12:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Ab so lutely. Gives the community the power to desysop without going up to ArbCom. Queen of Hearts talk
    she/they
    stalk 13:21, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Community recall is many, many years overdue. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

    Support in principle moving to neutral. Admins serve with the support of the community, but we have no process by which the community can withdraw its support. That is a glaring omission. I would like to see a more fulsome proposal with defined requirements before I support outright; this comment should be interpreted as support for initiating that discussion, not support for whatever anyone comes up with. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

20. Support in principle I think details need be worked out. --Enos733 (talk) 17:14, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
21. At the moment the process is usually a discussion at AN/ANI, which results in an ARBCOM case that in turns results in admin rights being removed. In reality the ARBCOM cases are always going to end up removing rights. If the community no longer has faith in an admin then ARBCOM is highly unlikely to back the admin against the community.
    But I'm deliberately avoiding the 'S' would in my comment. This is a nice sentiment, but it will need a well thought out and robust process. Otherwise it will just become a playground of sockpuppets reporting their most disliked admin over and over. That will result in editors not wanting to become admins not because of the toxicity of RFAs, but the endless toxicity of the recall processes. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:10, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Support in principle, but needs more details explicitly laid out. In addition to other concerns laid out (requirements to initiate a recall, minimum time frame, etc.) I'd like to emphasize that a recall would need to be listed in the same places as an RfA (e.g., at WP:CENT). RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
23. I think a two-stage system might work, where 10-15 editors need to express support for desysopping for a RfDA to be initiated, and then the whole community can !vote in the second the stage. The first stage should purposely have no discussion; just an initial statement for what incident or behavior has precipitated the request, and then supports (no opposes and no rationale needed) from those who think a RfDA is justified by the circumstances. I think this is a reasonable standard that lets the community decide and still avoids the issue of single disgruntled editors trying to take their ire out on admins. AryKun (talk) 19:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Many details would need to be worked out in order to make this work and not malfunction. But I think in vague terms it's a good idea. This could even help "lower the stakes" for RFA's. North8000 (talk) 19:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Support the idea, but this needs to be workshopped longer before passing. There should be a subpage of RFA for this purpose and the same notices that go out when an RFA is open should also go out when a recall is open. I also support suffrage requirements - calls for a recall should be limited to uninvolved users past a certain edit count. 9yz (talk) 22:47, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
26. I support this in theory, but agree that it needs further improvements and work-shopping before I could actually support this being put into practice. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
27. Perpetual support for some sort of recall ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
28. Support This has been something people have been asking for for a long time. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
29. Support. We don't see AN using its site-ban power or its topic-ban power or its PERM-revocation power to inflict unnecessary punishment for minor infractions and petty grudges. Why would a desysop (a far less serious remedy than a site-ban) be any different? +sysop is not inherently special, and if we can build a culture that's willing to remove adminship at AN, we'll soon have a culture that's willing to grant it there too. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (Proposal 16)

1. Oppose "trial by ANI" as recall process. Recent Arbcoms have desysopped for relatively small infractions and have mentioned community trust, so I do not see evidence that bypassing Arbcom is needed or helpful. —Kusma (talk) 11:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   I would prefer something like dewiki's decentralised recall requests pages de:WP:AWW, where a recall election has to be started by the admin when 25 new votes for recall have accumulated in one month, or 50 have accumulated in one year. Just say no to anything involving the dramaboards. —Kusma (talk) 15:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   Also opposed if it is AN instead of ANI. Make a fast track Arbcom procedure for "community wishes desysop" instead. —Kusma (talk) 14:33, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose - the reason this keeps failing is that it would tend to scare any admin from handling any highly controversial issues. This would include making the problems with the unlockables worse (remember the Frame case?). Animal lover |666| 17:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I've supported some recall proposals in the past, but one which requires a simple consensus on a noticeboard with no requirements for quorum, etc. isn't sufficiently well fleshed out for me to support. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose per Animal lover 666. Gamaliel (talk) 04:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose. Making admins essentially RFA again does not seem to solve the problem of making RFA less toxic and more appealing to candidates. And Arbcom seems to be taking its role of moderating admins quite seriously, with several desysops recently, for a variety of infractions both large and small. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose. I don't think this improves RfA at all and it will in fact decrease the number of people willing to go through the RfA process. The ArbCom has proven itself capable of handling cases that arise. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 18:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   I've been thinking about this some more. My other concern is that this proposal may discourage admins from handling controversial issues and dealing with abuse from long-term users. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 17:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

7. Oppose per Kusma, Animal lover 666 and Novem Linguae. Also, I have not seen any evidence that this is indeed a problem that needs fixing, i.e. that ArbCom is unable to handle those few cases where such sanctions are necessary. This proposal has no discernible upside but the downsides are palpable. Regards SoWhy 19:55, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Oppose I think this sort of thing should be left to experts, I can see a witch hunt type situation starting because an admin did something somebody didn't like. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Oppose; like Animal lover 666, I am concerned that this would discourage admins from doing anything likely to draw significant ire. Such a process also seems a magnet for drama and bad blood, which would negate the advantages it possesses over our current system. ― novov (t c) 04:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose. Not a proper venue for this proposal. See WP:RFDA. Stifle (talk) 11:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

    Also would oppose generally, by the way, as the current methods for dealing with problematic admins are satisfactory and recall creates a chilling effect by allowing threats of frivolous or vexatious recall petitions. Stifle (talk) 10:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

11. Oppose I'm concerned with the lack of a safety protocol to prevent mobbing Admins involved in contentious areas into recall. Chetsford (talk) 05:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose - we don't have enough administrators now, so any proposal likely to make adminship less attractive to prospective candidates would be a step backward in my view - and the prospect of admins being mobbed or harassed for dealing with difficult or controversial matters is very real IMO. I have also seen no credible evidence that the current system of desysopping via Arbcom is insufficient. We should be looking to make adminship more attractive to potential candidates, not less so. Gatoclass (talk) 15:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose trial by AN which tends to be not well-suited to examining intrackable or complicated issues such as longer-term concerns about admin actions. I also agree with the comments above that I don't believe this will make RFA less toxic. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
14. Oppose I don't believe this would lead to useful desysoppings - I believe it would simply lead to enormous amounts of drama and wasted time. The ArbCom system we have in place is clunky but basically functional and much more structured. —Ganesha811 (talk) 06:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (Proposal 16)

1. Big-picture I think that making it easier to remove administrators will make RfA a lower-stakes process, which should decrease toxicity there, and so long-term increase the number of people willing to consider running for RfA; but I have to think that the first-order effect ("make it easier to remove administrators") will be larger in magnitude than the third-order effect ("more people willing to run for RfA") and so that this would exacerbate the problem of too few admins. So I would not support this in isolation, only in combination with changes whose first-order effect would be to increase the number of administrators. --JBL (talk) 18:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Moved from support. I support the general idea that the community should be able to recall administrators, but this proposal is too vague and open to abuse. More discussion is needed, and not in this threaded format. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposal 16)

Is incompatible with the agreed scope of WP:XRV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SmokeyJoe (talk • contribs) 04:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

+1 I am not going to nitpick and oppose the idea behind the proposal, but XRV is supposed to operate like DRV. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 13:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with the part about XRV either. XRV is about the administrative action, and the only thing that is up for discussion there should be the action itself and the performing admin's reason for it. When I open an XRV thread it says nothing about what I think about the performing admin's suitability for adminship. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 14:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Thebiguglyalien, any chance I could get you to strike ANI too? It's just going to draw additional opposes of the ANI-is-a-cesspool variety, and ANI threads tend to attract less attention since there are so many of them (leading to a weaker consensus than you'd get at AN). Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Done. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I've begun drafting two proposals for a more specific recall process at User:Novo Tape/sandbox (I strongly prefer the first; the second is just to get an idea of what to focus a proposal on). Anyone is free to edit them and/or provide feedback. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 18:05, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I suggest reviewing some of the previous proposals listed at Wikipedia:Requests for de-adminship § Proposed processes, for context. isaacl (talk) 18:23, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 16b: Require a reconfirmation RfA after X years

As described in the previous proposal, administrators are only subject to ARBCOM once they are given administrator permissions. There is no means to remove permissions for administrators who have lost the trust of the community unless they have committed egregious or ban-worthy offenses.

If this proposal passes, administrators will be required to pass a new RfA after a certain number of years to confirm that they still have the trust of the community and need for the tools. The number of years will be decided by the community, either in this proposal (if there is strong consensus for a specific number) or in a follow up discussion. Administrators who do not initiate a new RfA will have their administrator permissions expire in good standing with the option to reapply at a later time. This will replace the current inactivity rules for administrators. Current administrators will not be immediately subject to reconfirmation if they have served longer than X years. If several administrators must be reconfirmed in a short period, reconfirmations may be staggered at bureaucrat discretion to allow sufficient time for review.

Supporters of this proposal may condition their support on a minimum or maximum number of years they would be willing to support. As with the previous proposal, the benefit would be stronger accountability for administrators who have lost the trust of the community. It would also simplify the current inactivity rules. The potential drawback is that it would make administrators less likely to take necessary but controversial actions, though it would allow time to pass before an RfA due to its scheduled nature, preventing kneejerk reactions. This drawback could be further mitigated through means such as requiring only a simple majority to reconfirm. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (Proposal 16b)

1. I support the principle of the idea, which I understand to be "no lifetime appointments." I'm in favor of terms (aka "reconfirmation") and term limits, and against lifetime appointments, for positions of trust, in basically all spheres of life, for reasons not worth detailing here, but in sum: people change, the community changes, and change is good, but one must keep up with change. This is particularly true when considering how much RFA has changed between now and 15 or 20 years ago.

   Principle aside, there are major practical considerations, due to the # of reconfirmations required, which, if it were only for active and not all admins (no point in reconfirming inactive admins), would mean 400+ reconfirmations. One a week every week for over a year is too much. Then there's the scheduling issues -- we'd have to ask the admins when it was good for them to spend a week answering questions. And who is volunteering to schedule all of this? So we're talking years, plural, to get through 400+, or else multiple RFAs per week. Either way, the community will be exhausted long before its finished. And if we change the structure of RFA ... can we do a SecurePoll once a week for like two years? And get them all scrutinized? I could go on with the practical issues.

   There is some way to figure it out. Not everyone would stand for reconfirmation. If we made the terms long enough (like 10, 15, or 20 years), it would reduce the total # of reconfirmations. It's a complex problem, but solvable, and it won't be around forever (there will be plenty of time, five years from now, to reconfirm everyone who became an admin in the past year, because there weren't that many). I'd rather figure out other RFA reforms first, and then look at terms/reconfirmation, because changes to the RFA process will hugely impact any potential reconfirmation process. Levivich (talk) 05:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Support: Adminship is currently a form of monarchy, where, once the power is given, it takes a revolution to get it out of the hands of a rogue. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   So ArbCom is a revolution now? I'm sure this would generate some funny AI images Aaron Liu (talk) 12:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Support, 15 years. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per Lord Acton. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. This is a necessary consequence of the way admins are created. "Administrators are expected to have the trust and confidence of the community" (WP:CANDIDATE), not that of the community twenty years past. Moreover, as the process for creating admins has changed, admins have been held to different standards, which reduces trust in them. Practically, reconfirming admins needn't be a huge task; most users don't vote on most RfAs, so two notices a week at the top of a watchlist isn't a big deal. (The five most recent RfAs were voted in 2-300 times each; that's about 0.5% of the 70,000 extended-confirmed users, so if you don't vote in one it's no big deal; two notices a week is more than enough to run through 470 active admins in five years.) Admins who run out their term can be renominated at their convenience. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 11:33, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (Proposal 16b)

1. Oppose We already have a dearth of admins. The proposal forces every admin to go through confirmation process, including those who are very likely to pass any way. Those who have lost the community trust would have been taken to ArbCom anyway. This proposal just consumes more time out of everyone to participate instead of using the time to actually building an encyclopedia or address other, more important, issues. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 04:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose - takes effort for no gain. If there is a problem, organize a recall. If there is no problem, don't require confirmation. Banedon (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I'd say just initiate a removal process. With that process and inactivity already here, I fail to see how this much work gives us benefits. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Few admins at any time are actually controversial. Mach61 (talk) 13:10, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Too cumbersome, would rather see a recall process then have to deal with this. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Interesting idea, but its just more trouble than it's worth. – Hilst [talk] 15:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Oppose I will support any proposal that seems likely to have even the smallest impact on making RfA less unpleasant and/or will help good candidates be elected, and I will oppose or remain neutral on the ones that do not seem to be likely to make such an impact. I do not believe that people will behave more pleasantly at RfA if adminship is time-constrained, and actually, I think editors would be less likely to undergo the ordeal for something so temporary. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 15:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Oppose. We need more sysops, not more RfAs. Besides that, there is already an existing process to desysop admins who have miswielded the mop (arbcom) and thus far it looks like we'll gain consensus for a community desysop. Inactive admins sre desyssopped automatically. What admins would this remove who wouldn't be desysoped by other processes? Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 16:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Oppose. Geez, the RFA process is already difficult and stressful enough. And now, editors with administrative privileges need to go through 2FA and are subject to inactivity requirements. Keep adding more red tape with becoming an administrator, and no one will want to become one. The solution here would be to update the (in)activity requirements in whatever way necessary, considering that resulted in an almost justified 67% attrition of administrators recently. Steel1943 (talk) 16:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose: The number of admins who would pass a reconfirmation is higher than the number who would willing go through one. I believe a number of them would rather surrender than the tools instead which would result in the loss of quality and productive administrators. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
11. If the community wishes to desysop legacy admins based on their legacy-ness, it can used the process resulting from Proposal 16 to do so; there's no reason to jump the gun with this forcible proposal. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose: We need content, editing, and admins, not more bureaucratic red tape. If the admin is acting un-adminy, there is already a process. It's me... Sallicio!^{$\color {Red}\oplus$} 17:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Your sig makes it sound like "I am the process!" Aaron Liu (talk) 17:37, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

    Lol... you never know! It's me... Sallicio!^{$\color {Red}\oplus$} 12:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

13. No need for reconfirmation without cause. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Oppose per Rhododendrites. SportingFlyer T·C 19:18, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose. I don't like the idea of making admins go through this automatically, without cause. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
16. This would move things in the wrong direction, we need more admins not less. ϢereSpielChequers 21:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
17. We should at least try something like 16a to have a way to remove truly problematic "legacy" admins before we use a blunt instrument like this. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:33, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose. Making admins essentially RFA again does not seem to solve the problem of making RFA less toxic and more appealing to candidates. And Arbcom seems to be taking its role of moderating admins quite seriously, with several desysops recently, for a variety of infractions both large and small. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:12, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Oppose I'm fine with RfA being a lifetime appointment in cases where an admin doesn't do anything to forfeit the tools. I'm in favor of recall on an as-needed basis, but I'm opposed to mandatory reconfirmations for everyone. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
20. Oppose - recall and reconfirmation should be exclusively for cause. Reconfirming all admins just because some time has passed is unnecessary process that won't solve any identified problem, and will result in some administrators losing the bit simply for being unpopular. Admins shouldn't have to also be politicians constantly considering whether their action hurts their chances in the next election cycle. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:59, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
21. Oppose This won't make RFAs less toxic, and if there is a need to recall an admin this isn't the way. All it would seemingly achieve is additional bureaucracy. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
22. Oppose, per Novem Linguae and most others here. Also, the fact that admins are not subject to periodic RfAs allows them to make unpopular but correct decisions without having to fear losing the tools in a reconfirmation popularity contest. Regards SoWhy 19:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
23. Oppose If admins aren't obviously breaking the rules, there is no real reason to do this. And if they are, it can be handled in a different fashion. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
24. Oppose. We're already haemorrhaging sysops. Last thing we need is to cut more. Stifle (talk) 11:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
25. Oppose But requiring a "lower hurdle" renewal would be a good idea. It's become clear that we have a large amount of "got in back when it was easy" admin who are too rusty (even as editors) to do the job. I'd be in favor of s "lower bar" required renewal process, but a full standard RFA is far too much to require. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
26. Oppose This creates too much potential for gaming. Chetsford (talk) 02:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
27. Oppose requiring reconfirmation, especially if it needs a large discussion, is likely to take up a lot of time. Plus what happens if the RfA is poorly attended (because the community at large does not want to spend time on it)? Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
28. Oppose The last thing we need is to further reduce our number of admins. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:17, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
29. Oppose Suspect this would put admins off dealing with controversial topic areas, where they will inevitably annoy a number of highly active editors who will inevitably turn up at their reconfirmation and !vote against. Number 57 00:52, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
30. Oppose. I continue to think that any recall process needs to be targeted toward admins that people actually are asking to have removed—otherwise we're just wasting large amounts of community time on uncontroversial re-RfAs. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
31. Oppose It makes no sense. In my opinion the main requirement for the mop should be that the user can be trusted to not abuse the tools and have an understanding of the project. If an admin is no longer trusted, there is already a process to remove the bit. --rogerd (talk) 02:10, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
32. Oppose I don't believe this will make RfA a less toxic environment. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
33. Oppose While RfA requirements were much lower in the distant past and there are still some legacy admins who definitely should be stripped of the bit, I think the 'recall RfA' would be even more toxic than RfA is at present. Admins make tough calls sometimes and many of them will have people holding long-standing grudges for a "wrong" close or a "bad" block: people will oppose with vitriol against admins who make tough choices, and that's not a millstone we need to place round any admin's neck. - SchroCat (talk) 09:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (Proposal 16b)

1. Big-picture I think that making administrator terms finite duration will make RfA a lower-stakes process, which should decrease toxicity there, and so long-term increase the number of people willing to consider running for RfA; but I have to think that the first-order effect ("bounding the length of administrator terms") will be larger in magnitude than the third-order effect ("more people willing to run for RfA") and so that this would exacerbate the problem of too few admins. So I would not support this in isolation, only in combination with changes whose first-order effect would be to increase the number of administrators. --JBL (talk) 18:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Meh, I support in theory, but imo we just have too many mops too many mops for this to be practical and the recall process above would work fine. Queen of Hearts talk
   she/they
   stalk 13:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposal 16b)

• "still have [...] need for the tools". Is this need required, recommended or advised for someone to become an admin in the first place? If so, is that a written standard or advice, or unwritten? If not a current standard, would it become a standard for reconfirmation only? Nurg (talk) 05:16, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
• Annual steward reconfirmations work fairly well, and most are rather uncontroversial. The issue is that there are many more en-wiki sysops then there are stewards. Doing reconfirmations at longer-intervals, five, ten, or even fifteen years as has been suggested, keeps the numbers more manageable but does risk removing the tools from people who just happened to have a busy IRL at the wrong time. But as always we're back to the problem with RfA is the voters, no easy fix for that. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 20:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

• The project has not yet been running long enough to fully appreciate the problems that will increase with time. Because admin accounts are anonymous, there's nothing to stop them being sold or inherited when the incumbent tires of the task or dies. And, if the holders stay in place, they will become increasingly incapable and infirm as they age. But we can't have an age limit because we don't know how old people are. And so term limits seem essential to prevent absurd abuse and decay. See gerontocracy ... Andrew🐉(talk) 08:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  The system survived during our apex of editors, which we have not re-achieved yet. I doubt these committed enough to become an admin would sell their accounts, and even in the case of malicious actors, ArbCom has proven to have a fast response time against the absurd abuse and decay. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 16c: Community recall process based on dewiki

This is a way to initiate recalls for admins without requiring WP:ARBCOM. Seeing the calls for a formalised process in Proposal 16, I'm presenting one based on dewiki's Admin recall process.

1. WP:Admin Reconfirmation will be created, where any subpages can be created for individual admins. Editors may sign on those subpages to vote for a reconfirmation.
2. The reconfirmation is initiated if 25 editors with Extended Confirmed rights vote for it within the last 1 month. Or if 50 editors with Extended Confirmed rights vote for it within the last 1 year.
3. Once a reconfirmation is started, the admin in question must run for a "Reconfirmation RFA" (RRFA) within the next 30 days. Otherwise a bureaucrat can remove their admin rights.
4. A RRFA will be identical to any RFA, but with lower thresholds. Instead of 75% "generally passing", it'll be 66%. And the discretionary range for Bureaucrats will be 55% to 66% instead of 65% to 75%. Any admins who fail a RRFA will have their admin rights revoked.
5. Any admins may voluntarily stand for RRFAs at any time if they like. This will be otherwise considered identical to a community initiated Reconfirmation.
6. Admins who have successfully run for an RFA, RFB, RRFA, or Arbcom elections in the last 1 year are not eligible for a community initiated Reconfirmation. Any votes for reconfirmation in the 1 year after an admin succeeds any of these will be struck.

If there's any one part of this proposal you'd prefer editing, please state so in the discussions below. I'm happy for the exact details to be tweaked by a future RFC or proposal closers by community consensus, as long as there's support for the overall recall process outlined.

Soni (talk) 14:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Edits : Used RRFA as a short form for clarity, add line about rights removal (if no RRFA happens), rephrased RRFA thresholds to match intent (same as RFA, but lower thresholds) Soni (talk) 19:12, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (Proposal 16c)

1. As proposer Soni (talk) 14:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
2. I quite like this; I don't believe there is anything radically new here, but it does address many of the common concerns with recall. There's a dedicated venue, away from the cesspit; there's limited suffrage, to prevent gaming; there's a time limit, so opposition to an active admin can't just accumulate; there's a discretionary zone, so people who are upset because they were at the receiving end of justified admin actions can have their !votes discounted if needed; and the discretionary zone is lower that at RFA, recognizing the fact that an active admin will have more opposition than a fresh admin candidate. I might suggest some tweaks: 50 editors in a year isn't that much, when you consider our larger editor body, and a 11% discretionary zone is an odd artefact. But these are quibbles. I don't see this as incompatible with the previous recall proposal, but the specifics are far preferable here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:21, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Reasonably well fleshed out. I would strongly prefer we use a recall system where recalls can be initiated based on pure numbers rather than notmal consensus, as otherwise we run into the problem described at c:User:Alexis Jazz. Whether the recall itself is a straight vote is less important. Mach61 (talk) 18:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. While I'm still not sure we really need a community desysop procedure, something of this type is better than any of the other suggestions I have seen. Numbers may need tweaking based on enwiki's larger user base. —Kusma (talk) 19:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. I do like the idea of this/ Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
6. This looks like a satisfactory system. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Support. Others have pointed out the issue with consesnus, however this is certainly better than nothing and I doubt we're going to see many frivolous reconfirmation RfAs triggered. If we do, we can always scrap it in a later RfC. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 17:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
8. Equal choice with 16a. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 03:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
9. Support Seems reasonable. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
10. Support (if 16a fails) basically per Vanamonde. This recall proposal has the added benefit that, thanks to de-wiki's experience, we more-or-less know it works. The increase in accountability to the community is a great benefit, and the various checks are enough to make most of the potential cons quite unlikely. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
11. This seems like a good starting point for a process. Before implementing it, further discussion on the specifics would be needed. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
12. Support , a recall process for admins has been long overdue. Ratnahastin (talk) 06:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (Proposal 16c)

1. Oppose. I believe dewiki generally uses their procedure to desysop largely inactive administrators, not to deal with ADMINCOND issues for the most part. Either way, I believe initiating a desysopping should be based on consensus, not on an admin having a bunch of (for lack of a better word) enemies. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 17:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Moving to support. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 17:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

1. Oppose: I don't think the community should be able to remove admin rights unless there's an explicit consensus to desysop. Admin recall is a really good start, but the status quo of a recall discussion should favor the admin in question – no consensus defaults to retain tools. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Theleekycauldron, A no-consensus to desysop result would allow the admin to keep tools under this proposal Mach61 (talk) 22:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   ... no? if enough people sign a desysop petition, you have to run and pass an RRfA or you're desysopped. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Theleekycauldron I meant no consensus during the RRfA Mach61 (talk) 01:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   How are we supposed to judge consensus if e never have a discussion over it? AryKun (talk) 06:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   We should have discussion, AryKun, but the status quo should be retention. Admins should be desysopped when a discussion at AN results in clear consensus to do so for cause – not when a discussion at AN results in "no consensus to retain". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   @Theleekycauldron this proposal mentions nothing about AN, I think you're confusing it with 16d below Mach61 01:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose for the same reasons I provided in 16. Chetsford (talk) 05:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose, current process works just fine. Stifle (talk) 10:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose on the numbers suggested. Firstly, the initiation process threshold of 25 EC editors is too high. This necessitates organizing the mob before going official. Secondly, the reconfirmation threshold of 66% is too hard. Instead, the question should be whether there is a consensus to desysop. On numbers, that would imply 33% is enough to survive, however, numbers should be less important than the test by a bureaucrat of whether there is a consensus to desysop. Of course, a consensus to desysop will be much harder to achieve than to have originally disrupted a consensus to promote at the original RfA. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

   @SmokeyJoe I disagree that getting 25 EC editors in a month is a particularly high threshold. Consider, if you will, how many ArbCom cases wrt admin conduct get well over 25 preliminary statements in less than a week. And while I would personally prefer a lower threshold, it doesn't seem very helpful to refuse the community the ability to desysop at all because of that (especially given the lack of any alternate proposal, though even then, it makes strategic sense to support one flawed proposal so that the closers don't dismiss it for lack of quorum) Mach61 05:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

   Have you ever tried to corral 25 people, to sign on for a serious matter? It won't happen short of something already damaging the community so seriously that it constitutes an emergency, for which there are existing procedures. I support in principle, but oppose this as a formulation doomed to fail and make the principle look bad.

   On the other side, I would make it much harder to desysop. Easier to start the process, harder to desysop.

   I suggest seven (7) is more like a lot of people prepared to go on the record as wanting an admin desysoped, for something short of an emergency. These seven will initiate a process that will attract a huge number of people. At that point, I think is right to expect a consensus to desysop, not a failure of a consensus to promote. If such a process is to be a positive to the project, it must allow for the experience to be a learning experience, with a presumption that the accused will learn.

   With the high (25) burden to initiate, and the low threshold to desysop, this process will encourage a secret staging preparation, to hit hard and fast, and I oppose it. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

   This would co-exist with the existing way ArbCom can unilaterally decide to desysop someone. It has worked on dewiki, and unless someone knows that similar negative effects have happened on dewiki I don't think one can presuppose that that would happen. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (Proposal 16c)

1. Although I gave a moral support to Proposal 16, I'm starting to feel like the multiplicity of sub-proposals is getting away from the intended focus on improving the RfA process. Although I understand the logic behind saying that easier recall of unsatisfactory admins might make the granting of adminship less fraught in the first place, I also think there's a significant risk of overloading this process by taking the proposals in too many directions, resulting in nothing getting done. Using the de.wiki model as a starting point may well be a good approach, but anything like this needs a lot more working out of details before being ready for prime time. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   Hear hear. The community has expressed desire for and discussed administrator recall for many, many years, but any effort to develop such a process seems to start with throwing down competing proposals that we expect are fully developed even though there has been absolutely no prior discussion, and then we shout at each other over procedural nitpicks for a while before everyone gets frustrated and goes and does something else. The format of this page is good for periodic reviews of established processes and proposing quick solutions for minor issues that can be implemented fairly quickly. It's not good for developing an entirely new policy and process from scratch. It's time to have a proper, separate, dedicated discussion about recall, and probably quite a lot of it, before any proposal should be voted on. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   @Ivanvector I think the entire reason this RfA review has started is because people are very mad about the lack of substantive changes, and the last thing anyone wants to hear is that more time is necessary for workshopping. Mach61 01:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposal 16c)

• @Soni: how committed are you to making this a literal vote (using hard % cutoffs that are directly counted) - vs using something like "the ordinary RFA success standards"? — xaosflux ^Talk 14:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  I am not committed to that at all. I was trying to phrase it as "usual RFA success standards" but lower thresholds, rather than convert this to a full voting process. I believe any reconfirmation process will need different thresholds from RFA, given we want to encourage admins to keep working at contentious areas.

  I'm happy to reword to make that clearer. Soni (talk) 14:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• The process referred to in step 2 should be a consensus discussion/traditional straw poll, not a race to some arbitrary number of supports. An editor requesting a reconfirmation should need to convince the community that it is warranted, not just find 24 friends. Anyone who's paid any attention to AFD or any real-world controversial topic knows how easy it is to attract armies of meatpuppets to support any course of action. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  For better or for worse, this proposal is committed to an unambiguous threshold process, as opposed to a full run through the "drama boards", so to speak. Either you'd get something that goes through the high voltage bickering at AN/ANI/similar, or you skip them but risk your concerns above. I'd be happy to support Proposal 16D based on community discussion, but think this has merit on its own. Soni (talk) 15:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• I also would prefer if the time periods for discussion were shorter. A year is far too long: presumably any editor can propose a reconfirmation any time for any reason, and an admin so named then gets a Sword of Damocles over their head for the next year? No. Reconfirmations should be in response to particular admin conduct issues, and we ought to deal with incidents much quicker than this. We require 72 hours for sanction discussions, and even that was contentious for being too long. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  Having a month to cool down can have people retract their vote. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:19, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, a week to get 20 or two months to get 50 seems fairer Mach61 (talk) 18:10, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• dewiki's voter eligibility criteria, including for admin recall, contain an activity requirement. A more accurate translation of dewiki's recall criteria is at User:ToBeFree/recall. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 16d: Community recall process initiated by consensus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Any extended confirmed user may begin a recall discussion at WP:AN. They must inform the administrator being discussed and must explicitly state that the discussion is to initiate a Reconfirmation RfA (WP:RRfA). Following a minimum period of seven days and a minimum !voter turnout of at least 20 users, any uninvolved bureaucrat or arbitrator may close the discussion. Any user may comment in the discussion, but only !votes by extended confirmed users will be considered by the closer. Should the minimum turnout not be reached, the discussion should be closed. An admin may have no more than one AN thread for recall opened in a three month timeframe.

Should consensus be found in favor of desysopping them, the user in question must be notified via their talk page by the closer. The user will have one month to initiate a RRfA. Like a typical RfA, an RRfA would be listed at the WP:RfA page, appear on watchlists, and be listed at WP:CENT. They may have one or more nominators or opt to self-nom, just as in a typical RfA. During this time, they may continue to use any tools included in the administrator user group.

Should they elect not to hold an RRfA, their administrator permissions will be removed. If, at a later date, they wish to regain their administrative tools, they must run through an RfA with the typical thresholds (75% automatic and 65% 'crat chat at the time of this writing). Should they choose to participate in an RRfA, it will run with lower confirmation thresholds than a normal RfA (65% for an automatic pass and 55% for a 'crat chat). Should the RRfA fail, a bureaucrat will desysop them.

An admin may not go through an RRfA until at least one year after the conclusion of their previous RRfA or RfA. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 17:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

Support (Proposal 16d) Support. Consensus, as judged by a trusted user, is in my mind superior to people signing a petition. Though most admins have detractors and enemies, this will allow reasonable users to vote rather than disproportionately favoring those opposed to the admin as proposal 16C does. Sincerely, Novo TapeMy Talk Page 17:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC) In response to the issue raised that any EC editor can start a thread, I don't think the risk of harassment is as high as one would think. Any autoconfirmed editor can go to WP:ARB/R or WP:ANI right now to complain about an admin. At ANI, they'd be SNOW closed or just ignored, and at A/R the request would just be declined. Anyone who wants to cry fowl can, but we're free to ignore them (in which case the AN thread would expire) or !vote against them (to clarify, AN desysop threads may be SNOW closed). Sincerely, Novo TapeMy Talk Page 21:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Mostly support. I am hard opposed to any process that values admin votes as higher than regular user votes. I think I'll rather trust our Crats to close RRFA threads fairly than risk making an explicit segregation here. Other than that, every part of this proposal is reasonable to me, and I'm happy to see it pass (though 16C remains my first preference). Soni (talk) 18:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose (Proposal 16d) For the same reason as my support at 16c Mach61 (talk) 18:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC) An admin facing potential desysop has to go through TWO discussions, first AN, then RFA? No thanks. —Kusma (talk) 19:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Complicated and probably wouldn't work. Admins aren't going to advocate a desysop. A bit from "sticking together" but mostly due to "courtesy". North8000 (talk) 20:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Definitely a bad idea. Letting any extended confirmed user initiate the process would lead to non-stop harassment of admins who are just doing their jobs. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose for the same reasons I provided in 16. Chetsford (talk) 05:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Oppose as current processes are just fine. Stifle (talk) 10:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC) While current processes are not remotely fine, this is an inferior proposal to 16c. This would make it too easy to initiate a recall discussion, and it would result in AN being overwhelmed with recall requests from disgruntled editors. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:19, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Neutral (Proposal 16d) Discussion (Proposal 16d) Nominating someone for reconfirmation feels weird. Would the nominator be a supporter or detractor of the admin? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Aaron Liu, a supporter. I figured a nominator is good because many do a terrible job at self-noms, an issue that would be exacerbated by the even greater stress they're under. Basically, if I'm an admin (thank God I'm not) and someone initiates an AN discussion which is closed as successful, my self-nom statement is likely to spend way too much time refuting the accusations and too little time talking about my contributions to the project as a whole due to stress (or vice-versa). The benefit is likely minor, but I can't think of any harm allowing a nom could do. Sincerely, Novo TapeMy Talk Page 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC) IMO It would be a bit awkward to ask someone to nominate you. I think just having them self nom with a statement similar to the self-defense at SPI might have faster outcomes. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:19, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Purely as an editorial note, I suggest removing "(under a cloud)" and rewording the rest of the sentence with something like "and must file a new request for administrative privileges should they wish to become an administrator again." "Under a cloud" usually describes a situation where administrative privileges are relinquished before a specific sanction or consensus view has been established. isaacl (talk) 19:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC) Done, and removed part requiring two sysops to !vote. It's clear the proposal, as originally worded, would not gain consensus. For the record and later readers, the proposal originally had A minimum of two sysops must explicitly support removing the mop of the administrator in question in the first paragraph and the last paragraph concluded with Should they elect not to hold an RRfA, their administrator permissions will be removed (under a cloud), but they will not be prohibited from running in a future RfA at any point in time. Sincerely, Novo TapeMy Talk Page 21:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC) The del and ins tags may be able to help. I once looked into maybe putting these into CharInsert, but decided against it since it requries changing two different places for whatever reason. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 16e: Allow the community to initiate recall RfBs

Bureaucrats currently retain their permissions indefinitely, and the community itself has no means to revoke bureaucrat permissions once they are given. The only way to remove a bureaucrat is for the Arbitration Committee to open a case and rule against the bureaucrat in light of egregious conduct. There is no means to remove permissions for bureaucrats who have lost the trust of the community unless they have committed egregious or ban-worthy offenses.

If this proposal passes, the community will be able to revoke the permissions of a bureaucrat pending a new RfB. A recall will occur if a consensus is found to do so at WP:AN, similar to how community bans are currently handled. The bureaucrat will then be required to pass a new RfA to retain bureaucrat permissions.

A recall RfB may be bundled with a recall RfA’s, but are not required to be.

Benefits of this proposal would be that bureaucrats can be better held accountable for repeatedly acting against consensus, failing to abide by policy, or other serious infractions that do not rise to the level of ARBCOM. It would create a binding alternative to the currently optional recall process, which has been criticized for its inefficacy. The potential drawback is that it would limit a bureaucrat’s ability to take necessary but controversial actions that may prompt a kneejerk recall: there are ways this could be mitigated, such as requiring only a simple majority at RfB to be reconfirmed. 16:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Support (Proposal 16e)

1. Support, conditional on 16 passing - it makes no sense for us to be able to recall admins but not bureaucrat, and I believe we need to explicitly state that we are permitted to do so lest failing to do so cause controversy in the future. BilledMammal (talk) 16:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 17: Have named Admins/crats to monitor infractions

For Arbcom cases there are named crats clerks who oversee some aspects of the process – keeping word counts within reason, applying some discipline where necessary, etc. In a contrary position is RfA, where there is/are no named individual(s) to take responsibility for personal attacks, borderline disruption, etc. This means that when there is (for example) an uncivil oppose, there is a pile on of further comments and RFA turns into another disruptive sink.

Having a small panel of three or four named admins and crats per RfA (with a notice at the top of the RfA, similar to the notice at Arbcom) to deal with problematic behaviour would stop some of the disruption.

Support (Proposal 17)

1. As proposer - SchroCat (talk) 17:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems reasonable: having someone in charge would avoid the frequent removal/restoration/moving to talk-page/restoring/etc. battles. Precise implementation details can be worked out later. --JBL (talk) 18:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I think this might merit having the details fleshed out (noting, as below, that it's clerks, not crats, who do this for ArbCom). I could certainly see having a panel of admins who are named for this role, and that might be a good thing. Nominators should be excluded, and the panel members would not be able to support/oppose, to maintain impartiality. I'm ambivalent about having crats do it, because this probably should be a role kept separate from closing/chatting the RfA. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support. Right now, editors are free to violate almost any behavioral policy or guideline as long as it's at RFA. I'm in favor of any attempt to address this problem. City of Silver 02:21, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Cratship selects for different skills than required for this. And it'd be good to have different people closing the rfa vs clerking it, simply because that seems to be one point of reluctance from crafts to clerk. Galobtter (talk) 13:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support. I believe this would help improve civility, enable easier enforcement guidelines and policies, help avoid diffusion of responsibility issues, and it would also be easy to trial. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 18:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support: in a general sense, I think we could do much more to assert/reinforce the values we claim the community to hold, particularly those of civility and collegiality. This would be a good step in that direction. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:16, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Makes sense. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Support - Assigning editors will force some moderating to happen, which I think is necessary. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 12:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Per above. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
11. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 15:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
12. I'm not confident that this'll work, but it's at least worth a try (after figuring out the details, of course): psychologically I think this would make people less hesitant to do the clerking that WP:RFA2015 authorized. I don't want this to turn into "only these three people are allowed to clerk", though. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (Proposal 17)

1. Inclined to oppose; see 01:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC) in the discussion below. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

1. Oppose, I think the community should reinforce that 'crats should monitor RfAs, and not ask admin to step up and do so. Z1720 (talk) 02:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   I tend to agree, but there is pushback from individual crats on doing so and I think a wider pool of crats and admins spreads the workload a little more fairly. - SchroCat (talk) 09:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

2. We already have such oversight and all the proposal does is introduce an unclear way of limiting the pool of people who can do this. Better to remove the need by having a secret ballot so that there's no badgering. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   We currently have pile-ons from multiple people, including admins, for where there are problematic opposes. Having a small dedicated group to oversee such problematic input stops a dubious oppose becoming a toxic pile-on. We also reduce the dramah by having only a small number of people who are the ones able to move threaded comments (although not votes) onto the talk page. - SchroCat (talk) 12:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   Limiting the number of people who can intervene will tend to reduce the amount of intervention rather than increasing it. The drama might then increase rather than decrease. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:39, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   I'm struggling to see any logic in that statement, but a trial run would show whether this is the case or not. - SchroCat (talk) 09:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   SchroCat, my reading of Andrew's comment is that currently there are 18 Crats responsible for monitoring RfA, and the proposal suggests that only 3 or 4 named individuals should be responsible, so theoretically reducing the amount of people available to potentially monitor the RfA. However, the reality is that only a few Crats are willing and able to monitor an RfA in the manner the community would like, so the current system is not working. I do understand Andrew's objection; I feel that what we actually need is more Crats. New, active Crats who are tuned to the needs of todays' Wikipedia. I feel that if we had more active Crats then there would be more active and engaged monitoring of RfAs. Perhaps what we need is a proposal for more admins to volunteer to be Crats. If those named admins who would be willing to step forward to be an RfA monitor would instead step forward to be a Crat, then we wouldn't need this proposal. SilkTork (talk) 13:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   Named admins can be way more than 4 in number, plus 'crats would still be able to moderate. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   (edit conflict) Hi SilkTork. Maybe I should clarify: the 'three or four' refers to each individual RfA, rather than only 3 or 4 overseeing them every RfA (such a small number would possibly lose interest or drop off the list fairly quickly, so rotating the duties between 20 or 30 would spread the workload. I have in mind something similar to the Arbcom model: a panel of, say, 20 volunteers (a mix of Admins and 'crats), from which three or four can step up when a new RfA is being set up. I certainly agree we need more 'crats and that the existing ones should be more active there (see my response to Z1720 a couple of lines above), but the reality is that at the moment we don't have enough that are willing to do this work and would rather be active elsewhere. (I'm not sure we need a proposal for more admins to be crats, just a robust recruitment drive through the admin newsletter, or posting onto each admin's talk page(s)); I know the median appointment date for the current holders is c. 2010, and the role has changed a lot since many took on the mantle, but that's really not something that most of us on the site can alter! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposal 17)

Some questions about the proposal implementation: When is the list of admins for a given RfA determined? For instance, will it be established before the RfA is launched, so it will be in place from the onset? Will there be a pool of volunteers and a rotation established? Is any admin eligible to volunteer for a given RfA? isaacl (talk) 18:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

A panel of interested admins/crats could be held to be called on, although any admin/crat would be eligible to volunteer at the time the RfA is either planned or once it starts. To remain neutral, they would not be the nominators and would not be able to !vote in that particular RfA. - SchroCat (talk) 18:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. If the list isn't required to be present at the onset, what happens if no one volunteers? Does the RfA proceed? isaacl (talk) 18:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

The RfA should probably still proceed - we have admin who try to get involved from time to time, so even once it's underway, others will join in. - SchroCat (talk) 19:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I suspect since any admin can still take any actions as they feel necessary without formally volunteering, there isn't much incentive to put one's name on a list. isaacl (talk) 05:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Given some admins don't want to get involved in this area (using their powers in more technical areas) and some clerks crats have openly said they have no interest in doing much in the area, a list provides an initial point of contact for people to ask if they are willing and would be available for a forthcoming RfA. - SchroCat (talk) 14:05, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Sure. Nonetheless, having a list won't provide incentive for admins or bureaucrats to get involved if they currently aren't interested (not sure what you mean by "some clerks"). isaacl (talk) 16:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

? There's no incentive for admins or crats to anything if they don't want to - but that's always the case for them and every other volunteer on the site. It is a step forward from having no named individuals to whom people can turn. - SchroCat (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Having a list is a step forward only if there is a plan for how to get admins to put their names on the list. With the base assumption that admins are currently reluctant to get involved, I think the list may just remain blank. isaacl (talk) 17:16, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I doubt it will remain blank. I have seen Admins and Crats say before that they would be prepared to step up on a named basis, but I can't find the thread now. Anyway, the only way to find out is to run it as a trial and see who signs up for it. - SchroCat (talk) 17:24, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in having a list (even if it remains blank), but we've had this discussion multiple times about getting more bureaucrats and admins involved, and there are still concerns about insufficient interest. If part of the reason is a desire to avoid becoming a lightning rod for complaints, then I don't think admins with this in mind will want to become a point of contact. I don't think it's a reasonable workload for Primefac if they're the only one putting their name onto a list over and over again. isaacl (talk) 17:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd support an ElectCom (which is for the ArbCom elections) style system where every six months or an year the 5 people with the highest support are elected (with some backups) to be the rfa moderators. They would have the mandate to moderate RfA and only the extra authority of if there's a dispute over whether a comment/discussion should or should not be removed or moved they make the final say.

If we move towards elections every 6 months this would work well with that. Galobtter (talk) 19:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Just a note regarding the arbitration process: bureaucrats aren't involved. There are clerks that handle administrative tasks like checking word counts and monitoring comments (though they will typically defer to the committee for decisions that aren't clearcut). isaacl (talk) 18:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not strictly against this; it may be a good idea. However, I'd oppose votes being struck for their explanation – remove the explanation if necessary, keep the support/oppose/neutral vote. Bureaucrats can then still ignore the vote (I think they shouldn't either). Also, neither the applicant nor their nominator(s) should be allowed to influence who gets to moderate the RfA, and the moderators should ideally also not be able to spontaneously become moderators in response to seeing a specific user's RfA. In the name of civility, this proposal – if implemented without the needed care and restrictions – will allow a few opinionated people to have a more noticeable influence on the RfA result than simple unmoderated votes would have had. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

No-one is suggesting (with this proposal) striking any !votes. That isn’t mentioned at all in the proposal. And I've already made it clear that those participating should be neutral - that is fairly obvious. - SchroCat (talk) 06:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Taking "responsibility for personal attacks" was recently interpreted as including vote striking. The proposal is currently open about whether this is included and about which measures enforce the desired neutrality. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Striking votes has zero to do with this proposal. You don’t like votes being struck? Then open a new proposal about it, but at the moment your oppose is not based on anything in this particular proposal and when the consensus is determined, the false rationale will be taken into account. - SchroCat (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

The proposal specifically mentions "an uncivil oppose" and "a pile on of further comments". Which of these two are meant to be affected by the proposal, and which clerk/moderator response would be appropriate? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

That is for others to work out. I don’t get paid enough to spoon feed all the answers. If you want to codify the allowable or banned Admin actions in future RfAs, I really do suggest you open a proposal to deal with it. Personally I am OK if duplicate votes and socks are struck, but I’m uncomfortable with others, but as I’m not an Admin, it’s not my call. - SchroCat (talk) 22:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I believe the actual concern being addressed by the proposal is that administrators who could take action currently don't do so out of hesitation. So appointing named moderators is meant to make them less hesitant to perform actions. My concern is that this will lead to excessive actions that wouldn't have happened due to the hesitation before. Perhaps a voting edit will be reverted by a moderator who wouldn't have done so if they hadn't been a moderator; perhaps a comment will be removed or whatever else. All I said is that I'd oppose vote-striking as the result of this change. If it's not going to happen, that's good! It's a weak oppose based on a fear that may be entirely unjustified. We'll see if it happens or not. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:35, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

It happened already without named administrators. If you don’t want it to happen again, open a new proposal. - SchroCat (talk) 03:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 18: Normalize the RfB consensus requirements

Reduce the successful RfB threshold from 85% to 75%

Put quite simply, there's no other area of the project that requires 85% of participants to support something for it to happen. We only have 18(!) 'crats, and we need more of them if we want robust civility clerking (for example, if we want there to be 'crats on-call for each RfA). It should be the same as RfA; I'd also support lowering it to 75% with no discretionary range.

To be clear: the standards for bureaucrats are already higher than they are for admins. This isn't making RfB as easy as RfA, the requirements are still more stringent, and RfB !voters uphold that. But if 75% of participants agree (a full 3:1 ratio) that a candidate does meet those higher standards, that is nearly always a consensus, and we should treat it like one. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:23, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 18)

1. Support: this is a no-brainer as far as process. This isn't about the skills required to become a 'crat, those stay the same. We need more 'crats, and we need 'crats to be more in touch with the community. This is the simplest way to move towards that. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:23, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Never !voted in an RfB but 85 seems awful high per TheLeelyCauldron. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 22:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. I'm intrigued by something User:Xaosflux said: "The lack of more 'crats isn't related to excessive nominees failing to pass RFB". This is true but this proposal is asking a different question: are potential nominees for bureaucratship not standing because of the high likelihood of failure? Editors should be promoted to bureaucratship a whole lot more often than the one who's gotten it the last (just about) four years. I'd like to know if the 85% standard is why this part of the project comes up so short. City of Silver 01:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Per City of Silver and leeky. I fully expect the RFB process voters to continue to apply the high standards we'll like from crats anyway. I think a 75% consensus is strong enough as it is, and this proposal will be a change in the positive direction. Soni (talk) 15:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Personally, I have long favored the es-wiki approach where admins and crats are basically the same (which also seems to work fine) but absent such a radical change, it makes sense to adjust the requirements a little. I don't think clerking is necessarily the reason for this but more crats also means more redundancy and more diverse opinions which is usually beneficial. Plus, with all due respect to our current crats, only 2 of those 18 have been editors for less than 15(!) years and only 1 for less than 10 years. It is not that unlikely that many of them will not be around as editors for that much longer. Regards SoWhy 18:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support - I believe we can trust that RfB voters will have a higher standard while voting than when they do so at RfA and fully agree on needing more 'crats. The lack of meaningful moderation at recent RfAs is a clear indicator of that. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 12:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support - Quoting from WP:BN " In general, the threshold for consensus is somewhere around 85%.". m:Stewards/Elections_2024 - Even Stewards do not require 85%. I'd also support a compromise of 80%. - jc37 03:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
8. Support There are so many nit-picky negative voters that getting to 85% is very difficult. I have seen some very qualified potential 'crats get voted down. --rogerd (talk) 02:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 18)

1. I fail to see the necessity of this. Mach61 (talk) 21:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   RfB has the same problems as RfA, except worse, and having 'crats is essential to having RfA work properly. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

2. The lack of more 'crats isn't related to excessive nominees failing to pass RFB. As far the 'need more clerks' - other proposals are already looking in to clerking options that wouldn't require being a crat at all. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I agree with Xaosflux. We shouldn't be changing the criteria for crats simply because there are proposals that might, if passed, give them additional roles. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:12, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose - bureaucrat is a very high trust position since they push advanced buttons and there also aren't that many to scrutinize each other's work, so requiring high confidence to promote is not unreasonable. I would even support it being higher than 85%. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. I have never been convinced we need more crats, and thus see no need to make the process easier. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
6. No, we need actual consensus, and reach it regularly in such matters. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
7. I am not entirely convinced we need a lot more 'crats. I also haven't seen indication that the higher threshold is a problem in RfB's that happen. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 18:31, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
8. There's a current case of a legacy bureaucrat who made three attempts to become one and whose standing is now in question. That discussion has been closed three times already which demonstrates the difficulty of getting action taken against such privilege. We therefore need to maintain high standards, rather than lowering them. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   ... and it doesn't bother you that that person represents a full 6% of the entire 'crat corps? Unless you think that >50 admins are currently engaged in similar rulebreaking (I count two), RfB is currently worse than the "lower standards" RfA at electing trustworthy functionaries. The fact that half of our 'crats were elected before 2010, thus giving a lot of chances for legacy bureaucrats who are out of touch with community norms, is a direct consequence of the same well-intentioned "high standards". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   I see that the case is now at Arbcom. The idea that this is extraordinary and atypical seems quite naïve. The way that other functionaries have circled the wagons to protect one of their own seems all too typical. This bothers me but so it goes. See the Iron law of oligarchy, "Bureaucracy happens. If bureaucracy happens, power rises. Power corrupts." Andrew🐉(talk) 21:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   Proverbs 26:11 Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

9. Orthogonal to the issue. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:08, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
10. Per Ivanvector. The general line of thinking that because we don't have enough people in a role, we should lower standards so that more people can attain that role, is flawed. I am reminded of some states' teacher shortages, which they are inexplicably addressing by eliminating certain licensing requirements (i.e., "too many current applicants can't pass the licensing exam, so we should remove the licensing exams"). Grandpallama (talk) 17:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (proposal 18)

Nominally, this proposal isn't within the scope of requests for administrative privileges. Personally I don't feel there has been enough discussion of problems with the requests for bureaucrat privileges process to make a case that this proposal belongs with RfA proposals. I think looking at solutions for RfA-related problems is a sufficiently broad area so personally I'd rather deal with RfBs in a dedicated RfC. isaacl (talk) 01:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

It seems like how this is trying to relate is:

1. We don't have enough clerking at RFA's
2. Only 'crats can clerk at RFA's
3. It is too hard to become a 'crat
4. Therefore, if we make it easier to become a crat, more crats will be made, and those crats will clerk the RFA's

However, iv doesn't necessarily follow from the assumptions. I think that adjusting ii is much easier. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I feel that step (iii) hasn't had enough discussion to establish that the underlying reasons are similar to those underlying problems with RfA. I would prefer a discussion dedicated to step (iii) in order to give it an appropriate amount of focus. isaacl (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 19: Discussion-only RfAs

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I am proposing to change RfA by removing ongoing voting during the week-long RfA process. During the RfA, users can either ask up to two questions of the candidate, or provide a statement in support or in opposition of the candidate's RfA, similar to a user statement at ArbCom. Threaded discussion could also take place. At the end of one week, the RfA is closed as a discussion, and then a user vote would take place through a secret ballot process. (A possible addition may be that the admin closing the discussion may judge that the RfA has no chance of succeeding before voting starts.) This takes the two proposals above and places the focus completely on the vetting process, which users can then read before casting their vote.

Basically, there are three types of RfAs: clear supports, clear fails, and edge cases. We struggle the most as a community with the edge cases. My belief is completely separating the voting from the discussion process will actually be less stressful for the candidate, who can use the week focus on simply answering questions about their work and their interest in the admin toolset instead of having to worry about whether consensus is breaking for or against them.

Addendum: per the discussion below, the intent here is to create a process which generates a discussion that users can use to cast a vote on a timeline of the candidate's choosing, similar to something you might receive from a political party or candidate before an election in a democratic political system.

Extended content

Support (proposal 19) Support as proposer. SportingFlyer T·C 22:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC) Oppose (proposal 19) Oppose. That would be hell for the closing bureaucrats since consensus can be ambiguous, thus making almost every RFA be subject to a "crat chat". That, and the proposal fails to take an accurate assessment of the community's wishes since a clear "support / oppose / neutral" may be all some participants can muster and/or care to add, so this would also set an unnecessary hurdle just for editors to participate when the "S/O/N" breakdown makes it immediately clear of the editor's voting intent. Steel1943 (talk) 22:37, 27 February 2024 (UTC) Secret ballot process?? Strong oppose, point blank. Transparency is a must. Steel1943 (talk) 22:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC) I think improving proposal 13 would be far more beneficial. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC) I'm not sure I understand your comment. The community would still vote at the end of the week? I've edited the statement to make that more clear. SportingFlyer T·C 22:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC) It seems basically the same as proposal 13, except the discussion period is longer and the original RfA is gone. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC) Sorry, that comment was directed to Steel1943. Not sure why it was below yours. But yes, this is basically a mix of 3, 3b, and 13. I don't like the every six months element of 13, or the raw vote threshold - this should be a discussion, and RfAs should occur when the candidate is ready. SportingFlyer T·C 22:57, 27 February 2024 (UTC) Ah. Well, it's not very practical for election scrutineers, which are needed for SecurePolls, to be minutemen in service of arbitrary RfA start times. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC) Maybe then it's not a true secret ballot and a list of everyone's preferences is revealed at the end of the week for the community to scrutineer. SportingFlyer T·C 23:20, 27 February 2024 (UTC) Not sure what you mean. Do you mean something like proposal 8? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC) 13 is better. This places excessive work on scrutineers. Sincerely, Novo TapeMy Talk Page 23:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC) It seems to me that this would combine the problems of several other proposals here. The process would be much lengthier for the candidate, there would be an awful lot of discussion that would have the potential to be stressful yet unproductive, and then there would be a straight vote. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:17, 28 February 2024 (UTC) Opposing in favor of proposal 13 (Admin elections) due to the duration. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC) No secret / private votes, ever. I was opposed to making ArbCom election voting secret. Acalamari 04:09, 28 February 2024 (UTC) Discussion (proposal 19)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 20: Make RFA an internal non public process

One of the criticisms of RFA is that the whole process is public, anyone can see it. This deters some from running, especially if they edit under their own name.

If RFAs were only visible to accounts that were extended confirmed, then it becomes an internal process, only visible within the Wikipedia community. They don't publish recordings of job interviews and driving tests on the internet, why publish RFAs?

I appreciate this would require some IT work, but the WMF can afford to employ some programmers and I believe they want to make RFA less stressful. Once an account becomes extended confirmed they would be able to see RFA pages and take part.

I appreciate that this has similarities to the proposal to limit voting to extended confirmed accounts as a side effect, but some of the opposition to that was from people who saw no benefit.

The watchlist notice would also need changing so that it only promoted RFA to extended confirmed editors.

Support (proposal 20)

1. Support as proposer. ϢereSpielChequers 10:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. I don't see any harm in this. BilledMammal (talk) 12:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. I don't think this will protect anyone from committed trolls, of which we have a good few; but it will go some way toward protecting editors from drive-by spammers, POV-pushers, and other NOTHERE editors. I don't see the purpose of opposing this over the current absence of technical capability; we're not enshrining it in policy, we're demonstrating community desire, without which the technical capability will not ever be created. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:05, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   Wouldn't our existing write-protection options such as page protection or even the abusefilter solve for the use cases you just listed? — xaosflux ^Talk 16:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   Only partially: non-EC socks and trolls are still able to read, and therefore anything involving an off-wiki campaign (which the concerns I list above usually involve) would still be an issue. I would support EC-protecting RFA pages, but that's a different question. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Support. Gamaliel (talk) 20:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 20)

1. Seems like a crazy amount of effort for very little gain over just courtesy blanking all RfAs. All the juicy bits will be leaked, so any privacy improvements are an illusion. —Kusma (talk) 12:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. I’m sorry but this gives the exact same energy as privating your twitter account when you already have millions of followers. I wouldn't be surprised if someone scraped the entire thing and hosted it in real time on a third-party website, just out of spite. You cannot keep the democratic aspects of RfA if you want it to be more private. Mach61 (talk) 13:21, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Non-public = goes against the transparency of Wikipedia. Unless administrators need to start being confirmed via personal identification, this proposal is a hard no-no. Steel1943 (talk) 13:23, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Sorry, but there are many problems with this. (a) We can't make WMF staff do anything so shouldn't build a policy based on non-existent tooling (do the work first). Yes this is called out in the proposal, but it is non-trivial. (b) A restrict-read control for only certain pages/namespaces is cumbersome and fraught with issues (see mw:Extension:Lockdown and the related notes at mw:Security issues with authorization extensions. (c) As an example of "b" - these would surely be mirrored to sites like wikipediocracy immediately . Basically the goal of "keep these pages secret from everyone, except from this very-large-batch-of-people" is not going to be successful regardless of what technology controls could possibly be built. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per Mach61, this does not seem feasible. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:55, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
6. I understand the general idea but this runs counter to several principles of Wikipedia, most important the idea that there shouldn't be any hierarchy between users for non-technical reasons. These user groups were not created because those editor's voices are somehow more important and we should strive to avoid any changes that lead to such a perception. Plus, as Kusma correctly points out, there is no reason to assume secrecy will be maintained anyways. Regards SoWhy 18:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
7. In general processes are not improved by doing them secretly in the dark. Doing so will only add fuel to Wikipedia's detractors conspiracies of secret cabals and other such nonsense. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:55, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
8. This is a very mild oppose from me, mainly because I don't think that the problems with RfA come from new editors, and while there is a lot of validity to the reasoning that good candidates are discouraged from applying because the process is so public, I don't think the issue is about it being viewed by the general public. It's about being viewed by one's fellow editors, and this proposal won't meaningfully change that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
9. I think this is technically feasible, but I don't understand why it would be a good idea, and does indeed heighten perceptions of a cabal. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose for the same reasons as I opposed proposal 14: admins serve the entire community and all members of the community should have input into admins' selection and appointment. The extendedconfirmed userright was not intended to be used for this sort of gatekeeping nor for creating upper and lower classes of editors, and it is a travesty that some editors continue to try to find new ways for it to be used for these purposes. Furthermore, there is no functionality to restrict viewing of any page, other than deletion, and I personally would not want the WMF to redirect its actually quite limited development resources to functionality meant to make the project less accessible when there are far more important issues to resolve. And on top of all of that, there's simply no evidence that non-EC editors as a group are disruptive to the process in ways that can't be dealt with by existing enforcement methods. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Oppose Admins are selected by the community at large. Keeping the process under wraps would fundamentally undermine that process. Sure, in the ye olde days admins were selected from email mailing lists, but we're well beyond that point now. Even stewards are elected publicly. Transparency is what makes our selection process so much different from other communities, where admins and moderators are indeed selected by a seedy cabal. Admins are expected to be transparent about their actions, and there's no reason why the selection process should be any different. Lastly, RFA is not comparable to a job interview or driving test. You are not working to earn a license to do something, or to gain employment. You are requesting the community consider you to have extra buttons and responsibilities to care for the project as a whole. Since the rest of Wikipedia largely operates by transparency (except for the things where it has to be kept private), there's no reason why adminship should be any different. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 13:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
12. I was on the fence, but I have not been convinced that the benefits outweigh the cost. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose K6ka sums up my thoughts well. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
14. For better or worse, we are perhaps the most public project on the net, and meant to be. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
15. RfA shouldn't be a black box (and are we going to try to enforce secrecy? how? Blocking people who spill the beans? Even off-wiki?). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 03:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
16. Oppose per k6ka. Also knowing the internet, there will be a way developed to view rfa's no matter what, even if this passes. GrayStorm^{(Talk|Contributions)} 04:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
17. Oppose, reducing transparency in RFAs (or anywhere on Wikipedia) would only help fuel mistrust towards the Project: we are not an ivory tower. Pilaz (talk) 19:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (proposal 20)

• If advertisements (e.g. WLN, T:CENT listings) are attracting too many non-productive editors, changing the default targets of those is certainly possible. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
• Not that I am promoting setting restrictions, but technically it is possible and relatively easier to lockdown writing on RfA pages to extendedconfirmed users if the RfA process is hosted in another namespace. (see mw:Manual:$wgNamespaceProtection.) – robertsky (talk) 19:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 21: Reduce threshold of consensus at RfA

One commonly cited trope at RfA is that "an oppose is worth as much as three supports". This may be a reason that individual opposes get so much badgering, from the basic underlying premise that their vote is effectively worth more than yours.

Currently, an RfA requires 75% support (ie: support / support + oppose) to be usually considered successful, and 65% support to be under consideration by bureaucrats.

This proposal would reduce the thresholds to 66% and 50% respectively.

In other words, a candidate simply has to get more people supporting than opposing to be considered appropriate for adminship, and can be generally considered suitable at two-thirds majority support.

This could be considered the "Holy Grail" clause from a line in Monty Python and the Holy Grail ... "but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs, or by a two-thirds majority, in the case of ...." Or, if you prefer, "strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for determining adminship".

The most recent RfA this might have made a difference is Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Tails Wx, which might have persuaded them to continue the RfA instead of withdrawing. (Note, I opposed at that RfA). Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (proposal 21)

1. As proposer. I have pondered this for several years but never quite got round to codifying it into an RfC, so here we are. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, per WP:NOBIGDEAL. In addition, proposal 16 looks set to pass, and as such I see it necessary to lower the requirements for an editor to become an admin in the first place. BilledMammal (talk) 12:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   If you mean "If 16 passes, admins will have to reconfirm RFA", that could be a separate RFC than this one. ("What should be thresholds for reconfirmation RFCs"). Maybe you meant 16 implies "All RFAs could have a threshold reduction" Soni (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Support lowering the "automatic" threshold to 2/3. Not happy about a wide discretionary range (66% to 2/3 would be wide enough for me). —Kusma (talk) 13:24, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   Isn't 66% two thirds? Aaron Liu (talk) 13:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   No, 66% is 33/50. Two thirds is 1/150 more than 66%. —Kusma (talk) 14:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Having read through the RFAs that would fall in the new discretionary range, I agree. I am not extremely comfortable with a 50% discretionary range, and would be okay having further discussion on it (Maybe 55? Maybe 60?). I think a lower auto-pass could be good (I'd be happy with 2/3rds or 70%), in part because I expect the community to apply its usual standards and thresholds anyway. Soni (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. The problems are toxicity at RFAs and declining admin numbers, the solution is to regard adminship as NOBIGDEAL. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
6. I voted neutral above on two proposals that would make it easier to remove administrators; I would support this as a package deal with one or both of them. --JBL (talk) 22:01, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 21)

1. 66% doesn't seem very trusted by the community. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Reduce it again??? The current levels make sense per above. Steel1943 (talk) 13:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose: If only there is only 50% support, then there is 50% opposition, which demonstrates that the prospective admin does not have the trust of the community. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
4. 50% is way to low, admin candidates should not be so controversial that they have such low support. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:12, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. The threshold is not the problem. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
6. I support some loosening, but 50% is too low for me, sorry. WP governance is not RL government, and admins are not elected representatives. 50%+1 support is not a good model. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   dropping the thresholds to 60-70% is something I would support. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:10, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

7. It's already too low. Those users who were promoted despite being below the then-current threshold have, without exception so far as I can remember, not turned out well. And the example RFA is particularly poorly-chosen, since the candidate afterwards admitted to lying in the answer of one of the questions. —Cryptic 16:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
8. This proposal doesn't reflect available statistics (mine, for example). Over quite a long time, RFAs with support below 70% have nearly always failed, regardless of crat chats and regardless of having changed the discretionary range in 2015. Arbitrarily lowering the pass percentage to two-thirds would not reflect the evident consensus. Also, lowering the discretionary range from 70% to 65% had basically no effect on promotions, thus I don't see why lowering it even further would have an effect now. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Oppose. I don't think this idea is supported by the data. The current thresholds are reasonable and are working. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 18:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Oppose seems like it would make controversial candidates stay in RfA for longer and have more time to get bombarded by the community. Not a way to reduce RfA hostility. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Oppose While I like the idea of a 2/1 majority, this already exists under the current system, where 65% is technically still a pass. I don't think that a simple majority will work to get us good admins. For a simpler solution, perhaps what needs to happen is for the community to encourage the 'crats to be slightly more forgiving throughout the entirety of the discretionary zone. StonyBrook _babble 19:09, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose per Sweet6970 and Xaosflux. Sdkb ^talk 20:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose as written, because I feel that's too big a change in the percentages. I might actually support lowering 75% to 70% and 65% to 60%. Given that this page is so full of concerns that RfA has become too fraught, it's actually pretty reasonable to consider lowering the bar, but I don't want us to lower it too far too fast. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:09, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
14. Oppose while I could support moving to majorities on some aspects of Wikipedia governance, I do think that new admins need the support of a supermajority rather than just a majority. ϢereSpielChequers 22:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose Given recent RfAs it doesn't seem that hard to gain a large threshold of the vote if you are shown to be competent, you have to have really mucked something up to get a proportion of support votes that low. It has the possibility of approving people who are just unqualified. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:22, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
16. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
17. Oppose: "Consensus" is ideally unanimity, or since that may not be achievable in practice, close to it (and miracle of miracles, practical unanimity happens regularly at RfA); so no, this proposal is not consensus (certainly not in a mater of trust) and would likely warp so-called "consensus" in other areas of the project. Should we want to move to strict voting, let's do it straight out, not warp the idea of "consensus" into what is decidedly not a consensus. (Also the only time Bureaucrats dipped a smidge below 65 -- which they should not have done -- turned out very bad for the candidate and the project). Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose this is not the problem. SportingFlyer T·C 20:21, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
19. Oppose I feel like many Admins are already passing the threshold at levels that make the results of an election in the DPRK seem like a shellacking. I think I passed with 99-percent or something. Chetsford (talk) 02:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
20. Oppose: Per above. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 14:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
21. Oppose; mops are supposed to have broad community trust. Queen of Hearts talk
    she/they
    stalk 19:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (proposal 21)

It would be interesting to see more examples of RfAs that would have gone another way, although this is quite difficult due to the small number of RfAs these days. I don't think there are too many that would have changed

• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/MB (68%) - would have closed as successful. I suspect this would have gone the same way as Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Moneytrees, in that they would have been advised to take things carefully and consider the opposition carefully. They wouldn't have quit Wikipedia as a result of the RfA.
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Ifnord (withdrawn on 67%) - probably would have gone to a crat chat and closed unsuccessfully anyway
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/theleekycauldron (withdrawn on 66%) - would have gone to a crat chat and potentially passed. Since TLC is now an admin, all this meant is they would have become an admin sooner
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Shushugah (withdrawn on 56%) - at best, would have gone to a crat chat, and probably wouldn't have succeeded anyway
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Vami IV - Out of respect, I don't think we should discuss this
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/CASSIOPEIA (withdrawn on 69%) - might have gone to a crat chat, not sure what the result would have been
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/RexxS (64%) - Pretty much exactly what did happen then would have happened anyway.

There are very few RfAs that have ever ended between 50 - 65%, simply because the candidate withdraws and bails out by that point, possibly also quitting the project at the same time.

As an aside, somebody I can't stand managed to get elected US President on 46% of the vote, so 50% is far less controversial than you might think. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

John Quincy Adams did end up with ~38%, went to 'crat chat, and won! — xaosflux ^Talk 14:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Jbhunley is another that comes to mind, where a productive editor essentially quit after a difficult RFA. IMHO it clearly had stronger consensus than several others that did pass even with our current thresholds, but that's neither here nor there. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:09, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

  There's no evidence that Jbhunley quit as a result of the RfA. They had a history of month-long periods of relatively low activity before, and their most recent activity spurt ended with a major unrelated controversy. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know that a jury or a scientific peer review would buy it, but when a user stops editing within days of their RFA, and subsequently returns to make only <500 of their total of 23k edits, I find it personally convincing. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think elections are comparable to requests at the moment. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
• We would consider withdrawn RfAs for adminship...? Isn't the whole point of withdrawing that they no longer want to be considered? — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 16:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

  He means that they probably wouldn't withdraw in the first place. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

  Gotcha. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

• Your last comment highlights the problem with the proposal, warping the idea of consensus is not the way to go: should we want an election, than lets move all in, to a vote. Also, in reality those who stay in like that, are more likely to be the subject of pro-longed discomfiting, such that in itself, it brings their judgment into question. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:10, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 21b: Slightly reduce threshold of consensus at RfA

Lower the discretionary range from 65–75% to 60–70%.

Support (proposal 21b)

1. I think 50% is too low, but two-thirds is a healthy margin that should probably be in the upper half of the discretionary range. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 16:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support for the reasons I gave in my support for 12c and my oppose for 21. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (proposal 21b)

1. Per my reasons given at #Proposal 12c: Lower the high end of the bureaucrats' discretionary zone from 75% to 70%, which is pretty much half of this proposal. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose. It may be worth revisiting the discretionary zone in a year or two depending on the result of this RfC (since proposals like #3 may lower the average amount of support), but under the present system I think 65–75% is as low as we should go. I have yet to see an candidate fail post-WP:RFA2015 who I thought had the trust and confidence of the community, and that's what really matters. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 22: Change the name from RFA to "Nominations For Adminship"

The people that we really need are the capable "I'm willing to serve" people rather than the "I want this" folks. RFA has an "I want this" atmosphere / basis, a basis and environment that the "willing to serve" folks are often unwilling to go into. Also, it puts the crowd and conversations at RFA into a "you are asking for this, you'll need to fight/grovel/beg for it" mode. Changing the name to "Nominations For Adminship" would shift the psychological ground in all of these areas.North8000 (talk) 15:29, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (Proposal #22)

1. Support as nom. Per rationale in the nomination. I think that we significantly underestimate this aspect / detriment. North8000 (talk) 15:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support - I prefer this naming for the process. It makes it sound much less like a bureaucratic granting of some right from higher and more like the democratic uplifting of other members to a position of responsibility the process is meant to be. Not a strong opinion, ofc. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 15:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support I'm not convinced how much impact it will have, but am convinced any change it'll have will be positive. Soni (talk) 16:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support - I don't think renaming RFA will have the effect suggested in the proposal, but it does better reflect the reality of the process. Self-nominations have become quite rare. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support per Ixtal & Ivanvector. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 22:35, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (Proposal #22)

1. Not convinced this will do anything except require a bunch of maintenance to be done to support it. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Pointless churn. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. The name isn't really going to change anything. AryKun (talk) 19:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Pointless rearranging of deck chairs. Even the theoretical gains are minuscule. —Kusma (talk) 19:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. I fail to see any benefit in this, and it would likely strengthen the ridiculous hypothesis that self-noms are evidence of power hunger. Giraffer (talk) 20:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Sorry, but I just don't see this as actually changing anything that would affect the perceived problems with RfA. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:35, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
7. I don't think this would bring about meaningful change, but it would cause confusion. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
8. This literally does nothing at all to change the toxic atmosphere at RfA and is just plain pointless. The name is the only thing this proposal changes, and it will do nothing more than increase confusion. Prodraxis _(talk) 04:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
9. Requests could also be referring to other editors submitting a request by nominating the candidate. Put another away: Too much disruption for too little gain. StonyBrook _babble 06:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
10. Window-dressing. Stifle (talk) 10:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
11. I don't think this actually solves anything. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 13:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
12. This feels like a great way to decrease self-noms, making RfA more intimidating, not less. This may (and that's an unlikely may) marginally reduce the number of WP:NOTNOW runs, but I doubt this will improve much else. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 17:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
13. While it seems good on its face, it would appear to rule out self-nominations, because it implies others must nominate someone. A "request" can be done solo. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 22:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
14. Oppose, haven't we had some successful self-noms recently? Feels like, in addition to the window dressing comment that I agree with above, that this might dissuade people when our overall goal is to increase recruitment. This would need to be accompanied with an overall system that greatly encourages new admin mentoring to increase the rate of nominations at the same time. Right now, I don't think the occasional hat collectors getting summarily dismissed in a few days is a big problem that needs to be addressed. Does more harm than good. microbiologyMarcus ^{[petri dish·growths]} 00:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose WP:BIKESHED —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
16. Per Xaosflux, Lepricavark, etc. (As an aside, if we don't want to encourage "I want this" folks, we shouldn't have just changed Q1 to "Why do you want to be an administrator?"!) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (Proposal #22)

1. Maybe, but this might confuse the RfA acronym as being for arbitration. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   I think RFA would become a redirectNorth8000 (talk) 15:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   Not sure what you mean. It's always been a redirect. I'm saying that people can be confused into thinking RfA stood for Requests for Arbitration, just like how some editor on the village pump thought WP stood for WikiPolicy. We should try to minimize acronym confusion. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:35, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   Sorry I wasn't clearer/ mis-wrote. I meant a redirect to the renamed place. North8000 (talk) 16:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   Moving redirects when the target page is moved is already a given. That is not my concern. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   I don't think the Wikipedia community should remain locked into specific names solely to avoid changes in abbreviation. Editors concerned about newcomers should avoid jargon, including abbreviations used as jargon, and in cases where using a concise term has strongly beneficial effects, define abbreviations on first use. isaacl (talk) 17:22, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   Alright, maybe we could just use the hatnote, though I'm still ambivalent as to whether the disruption would be worth it. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

2. I don't think this serves any practical purpose, but I also think you're on to something - I would not mind having people be nominated to run for RfA. I know that's sort of how it works at the moment, but if there's a committee of people who can nominate users, I think this could be really helpful. SportingFlyer T·C 20:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   Not sure what exactly you are thinking of; groups of people can nominate users. WikiProject Admin Nominators was created as a result of the 2013 RfA review. It didn't flourish though as its participants didn't figure out how to balance what to discuss publicly while not discouraging those whom the group decided not to nominate. isaacl (talk) 23:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   You might be looking for WP:ORCP, which I think came about after the 2015 discussions. For a while this did serve as a resource for prospective candidates and nominators to connect, but I'm not sure how active it still is. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   Did you mean to reply to SportingFlyer? The optional RfA candidate poll page was created by Anna Frodesiak after she proposed it on the Requests for adminship talk page. It was intended to be a very quick numerical assessment of a candidate's likelihood of making a successful request for adminship, in order to encourage those who were uncertain to give it a try. Anna asked for anyone to draw up lists of potential candidates based on any criteria they wanted, and she invited all of them to start a poll. It's still active, though it no longer focuses on providing a number. It's not really a "committee of people who can nominate users", although of course it can help nominators find candidates. (Potential candidates can find nominators using Wikipedia:Request an RfA nomination as well as just looking at who has nominated candidates in recent years.) Also note that some editors think serious candidates should be warned off from using the poll, as they think it has higher standards than those of a consensus of commenters at RfAs and thus can be unduly discouraging, and that it provides a list of perceived shortcomings in a central location for commenters in a future RfA to examine. isaacl (talk) 19:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 23: All Admins are probationary for first six months

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm resurfacing an idea I advanced in 2021 [5]. Namely, all Admins are on probation for the first six months of their tenure. During this period, the Admin will be subject to a compulsory binding recall process using a to-be-determined formula if such a recall process is initiated. If the administrator is not recalled within 180 days, the probation is lifted and the current status quo with respect to recall processes (voluntary) resumes.
This would significantly lower the stakes of RfA and make RfA less of a life-or-death struggle. Chetsford (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC); edited 16:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

A point of clarification: There seems to be some confusion that I'm suggesting all new Admins must go through RfA a second time after six months. This is not the case. All this is, at the end of the day, is Proposal #16 with the restriction that community-initiated recall is only binding on an Admin in the first 180 days after they are sysoped (the "probationary period"). After 180 days, Admins can voluntarily expose themselves to recall or not at their discretion (identical to the status quo), but it ceases being compulsory. Chetsford (talk) 16:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

Support (Proposal #23) Support as proposer. Critics have noted that someone could be on good behavior for six months and then go crazy on day 181. That is a possibility and this proposal is not advanced as a silver bullet to correct every conceivable ill nor does it purport to offer a stopgap to each possible form of manipulation. Chetsford (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Support if a superseding admin recall protocol doesn't pass :) I think what people miss with proposals like these is that yeah, maybe having to go through scrutiny twice sucks, but if people know that there will be a next time, they'll be more inclined to support. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:34, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Striking my support based on the rough sketch – "petition to re-RfA" is functionally the same as "any ten people can desysop you for cause". Admins should be desysopped by community consensus, not lack thereof. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Oppose (Proposal #23) Oppose The six month period seems arbitrary as it doesn't appear that new admins are especially problematic. It seems more the other way as admins may become increasingly grumpy, impatient or out-of-touch with time. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Oppose Ivan (talk) 08:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Seems like a less nuanced version of 6b. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Oppose per Andrew Davidson. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Oppose. Making every new admin go through RFA again in 6months is overly cumbersome to the community and to the volunteer admin. — xaosflux Talk 14:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Recall should happen on an as-needed basis. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Oppose - these proposals for trial and temporary and provisional adminship are all just setting up new administrators to fail, and are a backdoor to term adminship which the community has repeatedly rejected. No problem has been identified which would be improved by making admins (any admins) be automatically subject to a recall/reconfirmation process resulting only from the passage of time. A candidate who can't be fully trusted with these tools should not have access to them, not even on a trial basis. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Oppose Per Andrew and Ivan. Also, this seems like it is holding new admins to a higher standered than experienced admins, which doesn't make much sense to me. GrayStorm(Talk|Contributions) 18:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Neutral (Proposal #23) To little detail for me to support or oppose right now (details such as: what would the process for recall look like, or what constitutes a recall) GrayStorm(Talk|Contributions) 03:36, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Changing vote to oppose. See why in the oppose section. GrayStorm(Talk|Contributions) 18:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Discussion (Proposal #23) GrayStorm raises a salient concern vis-à-vis the lack of detail here. I'm not wedded to any particular recall process or procedure but I'll offer a placeholder sketch that can be workshopped later: (a) a petition initiated by any user on their own Talk page can request recall of a probationary Admin for any specific and articulated reason or reasons; (b) if 10 Extended Confirmed editors sign the petition within 10 days of its posting, the petitioning user may then request a recall be opened by any Admin against the probationary Admin at WP:RFA; (c) an Admin should decline to open a recall against a probationary Admin if the reasons articulated in the petition refer to matters already discussed in the RfA that led to the probationary Admin's sysoping, or if no reasons at all are given, (d) recall will take the form of a renewal of the Admin's mandate and proceed in the same method and format as an initial RfA, closing under the same conditions; (e) if the RfA fails, the probationary Admin shall be immediately desysoped. Chetsford (talk) 05:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 24: Provide better mentoring for becoming an admin and the RfA process

I am proposing to expand the mentoring options available for users considering putting their hat in for the mop.

My general idea is to provide an additional process for mentorship besides the optional candidate poll by creating a separate, distinct process which would feature the following:

• structure the RfA poll to make the user provide more information on why they are interested
• time when the feedback will happen, perhaps annually or bi-annually, and promote it to allow as much feedback as possible
• start promotion the week before as a call for people potentially interested in being admins to express their interest publicly
• use a support/oppose/unsure system instead of a 0-10 poll
• moderate it to keep things as civil as possible. Unlike an RfA, this would be a chance for someone who would oppose to have an honest discussion directly with the candidate. I think you would probably have to disallow directly responding to other users in a threaded manner.

I've noted above I believe the problem we're trying to solve here are the edge cases, the candidates who either don't fail so spectacularly or aren't complete shoo-ins, because the community can get very difficult about deciding what conduct is and is not disqualifying when vetting a candidate.

Right now my two biggest reasons for not wanting to be an admin are that I don't want to do anything which might increase my time spent on here and that I don't want to go through an RfA. Right now, the only real way of getting public feedback is through the optional poll, which is often poorly attended, and feedback not necessarily helpful.

Changing the way we do admin intake to make it more conversational and collegial before an RfA is even started should help candidates understand what they are "up against" when being formally vetted.

Support (Proposal #24)

1. Support as proposer. SportingFlyer T·C 23:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support as a general concept. The details will need more work, but guidance is clearly a good thing. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:03, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposal #24)

I suggest just making this a new proposal from scratch, leaving aside the current optional RfA candidate poll. It serves a very specific, lightweight purpose. Perhaps it would no longer be necessary with a new proposal in place, but I think it's better not to couple the adoption of one to the end of the other. (Note numerical scores are no longer a focus in the current process of the optional poll.) isaacl (talk) 23:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Regarding currently available methods for reliable feedback: anyone can ask someone they trust for feedback. Receiving it in private can also allow it to be more frank, but also due to the personal, one-on-one nature, it might also be given in a more sympathetic manner (though that will depend on the individual). isaacl (talk) 23:34, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, yes - that's how a lot of nominations occur, I would think. But that creates the challenge that you may not get the feedback you need, which could potentially lead to stress. To your first point, given this is directly related to RfA reform, I don't see any problem with leaving it here as it would serves a purpose as sort of a "pre-RfA." SportingFlyer T·C 23:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting to move the proposal. I'm saying don't call it a reform of the optional RfA candidate poll. Let the proposal stand on its own, and as a separate matter, interested editors can discuss the poll. isaacl (talk) 23:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Good call, I've made some small edits. SportingFlyer T·C 23:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

It sounds like you are suggesting to have a review discussion that is similar to the current RfA process, but without threaded discussion and with moderators keeping the discussion focused on constructive dialogue. ("Mentoring" is generally a focused relationship with a small number of mentors, not an open crowd.) But then the editor and community would have to go through the similar RfA process to actually request administrative privileges. I'm not sure how much incentive potential reviewers would have to participate in the review, since it doubles the amount of discussions to follow. Plus, I think there's a risk that, similar to the admin nominators WikiProject, a lot of editors would not want to discourage good editors by pointing out their shortcomings. Perhaps an open call for privately submitted feedback would work better at casting a wide net for feedback. isaacl (talk) 23:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps I've made it sound too formal? There's two goals here: provide a venue for users to publicly disclose possible interest in being admins, provide the opportunity for structured feedback, and to set it at a specific time or times each year in order to increase the number of users who participate in giving feedback. I'd love to know what my odds were before going to RfA if I ever decide to go for it. Also, I'm not sure I would privately oppose someone. Perhaps I might anonymously. SportingFlyer T·C 00:16, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

The moment you wrote "structured feedback", "moderate", and "specific time or times", you introduced the need for volunteers to co-ordinate and manage the process, which necessarily adds formality. There are existing ways to disclose interest. When you say you'd like to know your odds, do you mean you want to have a trial run? I feel your proposal boils down to this. Other aspects seem more like an individual choice; I'll follow up on your talk page. isaacl (talk) 01:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 25: Require nominees to be extended confirmed

I'm proposing to make extended confirmed a formal requirement for admin candidates. Currently, the RfA page is already extended protected, so non-EC editors need to ask for somebody else to transclude their nomination (per a 2017 discussion). By streamlining this, we can slightly reduce the wall of text at WP:RfA. Furthermore, with admin elections (proposal 13) on course of gaining consensus, we may succeed in lowering the bar for nominees. This also raises the risk of a new editor wanting to apply with no chance of passing. Preventing them from asking to be nominated will avoid some discouragement. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support (Proposal #25)

1. As proposer. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Sure. Should save experienced editor time and make it easier to close WP:TOOSOON nominations. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. Reasonable incremental improvement. MER-C 11:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, with reducing the wall of text being a large benefit. In an extraordinary case, the extraordinary nonEC candidate will know how to ask for assistance. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:19, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Support per Novem Linguae. It's practically impossible for non-EC candidates to pass RfA under current admin expectations (or even past expectations), so this wouldn't change anything except for making the standards clearer. Liu1126 (talk) 11:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Support regardless of whether the other proposal passes or not. The current system is already a difficult one for non-EC editors from passing anyway. – robertsky (talk) 12:59, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Sure. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
8. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 15:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
9. Sure, the current "it's protected but actually anyone can still be an admin" is a weird compromise not reflective of reality. Galobtter (talk) 15:38, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
10. Seems good to me. GrayStorm^{(Talk|Contributions)} 15:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
11. Sure. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
12. As explained in the proposal. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
13. Support considering this is likely a de facto requirement for users who want to pass RfA. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 17:38, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
14. Support, as codifying the reality of RfA. Giraffer (talk) 18:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
15. Support already the de facto norm. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 19:15, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
16. Support Cuts down on the amount of rules text needed without actually meaningfully changing the status quo. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
17. Support. My initial reaction was to wonder why this would be needed, but the given rationale actually makes good sense to me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
18. Support per Liu1126. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 02:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
19. Support Seems like a logical step to what is effectively already expected of candidates (ie WP:TOOSOON). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
20. Support Just makes sense to be clear about what is already a universally-held expectation among Wikipedians. —Ganesha811 (talk) 06:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
21. Support don't see any issue with this. Ratnahastin (talk) 06:52, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
22. Support; why not? Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 08:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
23. Support It will only affect a couple of noms a year at most, but it will save people time in having to deal with those at least. - SchroCat (talk) 09:24, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
24. Support, if you cannot !vote then you should not be able to !run.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 15:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

    To clarify, you can vote if you're not extended confirmed now. Only the main RfA page is extended protected. Individual RfA pages are not. With admin elections we'll likely define some stronger criteria for voting to avoid gaming however. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

25. Support - it's already effectively an unwritten rule as it is, so it might as well be a formal one. --Sable232 (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
26. Support with the understanding that any candidate that is found eligible under this minimal (to my mind) requirement also has extensive (a lot more than EC) experience on some other wiki. StonyBrook _babble 17:11, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

    Why should inactivity on other wikis preclude adminship on enwiki? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

27. Support - it's extremely unlikely that a non ECP user could possibly succeed at an RFA. Animal lover |666| 18:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Proposal #25)

Regarding the current extended-confirmed protection without making it a formal criterion for candidacy: as I recall, when it was discussed, one reason was to allow for editors with extensive track records on other WMF wikis to remain eligible. isaacl (talk) 17:19, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah, that's an interesting point – If a need for this actually arises, I think we'd just manually grant extended confirmation. This is where the proposal differs from one that makes "30/500" a requirement. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:59, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I think we can say, with zero exceptions, that any user who is hasn't reached 30/500 and has no basis to convince an administrator to grant him ECP early, won't pass an RFA. Users with extensive track records on other WMF projects would probably have little difficulty in convincing an administrator. Animal lover |666| 18:46, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Can things snow closed as accepted? If so, I think this should be closed in that manner. This has more unanimous support than some snow closed proposals had unanimous opposition (minus the nom's vote). GrayStorm^{(Talk|Contributions)} 02:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

You're looking for WP:AVALANCHE (which is under SNOW)Wikipedia:Snowball clause § Avalanche. Though one should probably implement that on the RfA page. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

As I discussed at that page's talk page, let's not introduce a new jargon term, particularly not one that no one uses. isaacl (talk) 03:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

In my view, we should not be ending discussion early on proposals before at least a few days of discussion, as I discussed on the 2024 review talk page. There isn't much down side to letting productive, active discussion continue, and to avoid people later arguing about discussion being closed too early, would rather just let the conversation come to a natural end. isaacl (talk) 03:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Seconded, we're not in a hurry and giving it a few more days won't hurt anyone. —Ganesha811 (talk) 06:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, but this is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic ~ Amory (u • t • c) 18:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)