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Regular edit-warring from user:Jim7049

Jim7049 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Has been warned since January against unconstructive edits, disruptive editing, edit warring and NPOV violations in their talk page. This user has also been blocked and unblocked multiple times by admins but again continued edit warring yesterday on 11 March 2019. Please look into the matter and determine whether this user should continue their Wikipedia editing. AmericanAgent (talk) 13:12, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I've already warned Jim7049 earlier today for edit warring on Portal:Current events/2019 March 11, and the edit warring has stopped since then. I chose not to block Jim7049 in order to give him/her a chance to put the brakes on the back-and-forth reverts and to discuss the matter properly; Jim7049's contributions show that he's/she's added a discussion to the portal's talk page, which means that he's/she's attempting to do so. There's no block needed at this time, so long as the edit warring doesn't continue. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:51, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I've also left him an in-depth explanation of policy, expectations, and how I step in and manage issues and disputes - see my resposne here. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

@Oshwah: You may want to revisit. 1 / 2 / 3 reverts of the same user on Portal:Current events/2019 March 15 plus an admittedly noncontentious rv of a second user. This edit (a third user) shows willing to engage with disputes on talkpages at least some of the time; but, "Please stop this kind of false editing which is completely fake and disrupting," is not really the way to begin a content dispute in a civil fashion. Jim seems keen to improve the wiki, but is skirting boundaries a bit and could maybe do with mentoring. Madness ^Darkness 19:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Same situation, long-standing, on Commons; multiple explanations since January now. [3] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:13, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• I had recently declined an unblock for edit warring. Jim7049 was then unblocked after affirming understanding what to do instead. DlohCierekim 06:03, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Jim seems to have gone quiet for now, although I'm not too optimistic they won't resume their warring upon their return. Madness ^Darkness 19:34, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Adding dozens of non notables to article lists

• Korean Americans in New York City (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• New Yorkers in journalism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Chinese in New York City (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Indians in the New York City metropolitan region (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Castncoot (talk · contribs)

Editor was alerted to this last year by DGG [4]. Has responded to my concern thusly: [5]. Many of the non notables are linked to family surnames, so as not to appear as redlinks. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 14:31, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, I can say that I'm definitely not pleased to see Castncoot's reverts here and here to your edits and with the edit summaries he left, essentially calling your edit vandalism, implying that you're a product of sock puppetry, and that you have no policy knowledge. Have we tried going through each article and removing the people listed who don't need to be there? :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Also, Hi Bob! :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:41, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

1) WP:NOTABILITY constitutes the potential for a standalone article, not that there must already be one. 2) I do suspect sockpuppetry here but cannot prove it. 3) In an article entitled "Korean Americans in New York City", a Korean surname is most certainly pertinent and notable for wikilinking, as long as it is done just once per surname. Castncoot (talk) 14:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

@Castncoot: Please take any concerns regarding sockpuppeteering to SPI, and desist from casting WP:ASPERSIONS. Many thanks. ——SerialNumber54129 15:02, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Castncoot - I agree with your understanding of notability and the fact that it establishes whether an article should exist for the given subject. Having a requirement for a subject to already have its own article in order to be considered notable would be...... an infinite circle of logic and would make no sense, since that would mean that nobody would be notable due to the fact that having an article requires notability and then establishing notability would require an article.... lol.

I can assure you with the upmost confidence that this user is absolutely not a sock puppet, and he possesses a very high level of policy knowledge, experience, and dedication to the project. Can you please share the information and evidence you have that supports your accusation that this user is a sock puppet? ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:02, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Initially I was going to say that I don't see how we can complain if Castncoot is including a reference for each one. But some of the references are broken and/or don't demonstrate that the person in question is a New Yorker or even that they have made more than one journalistic contribution ever. So although s/he is correct in saying that there may be potential for an article, there must be considerable doubt over whether that is actually the case. Deb (talk) 14:55, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Basically, lists of people that have a potently to be indefinitely long (such as a list of Koreans living in NYC, compare to a list of Nobel Prize Laurats), then in combination with BLP, the only people on those indefinitely long lists should be those with blue-links with very limited exemption. Otherwise these lists can attract anyone that can provide minimal sourcing to prove they exist (which is not the same sources that we require by notability). --Masem (t) 14:58, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Please also check the sources that are intended to establish notability; there's a linkedin and links to personal websites. The notability of persons I removed from the Korean Americans article is far from established--merely being a journalist isn't enough. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 15:02, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going through the lists so far, and I do see some problems. Don't get me wrong: I think that Castncoot is a good editor and he's doing a great thing by creating these lists. Compared to the editors and issues that I'm normally am asked to handle and resolve, the problems that we're seeing here with these lists are definitely minor when comparing it to someone causing vandalism, abuse, harassment, or disruption... lol. I just wanted to make that clear. :-) We just need to fix these issues that we're seeing so that these lists demonstrate and show the upmost quality, accuracy, and comprehensiveness that we can write and provide for viewing and reading. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:12, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

And I have no problem with that. I only have a pet peeve when someone who's contributed nothing to an article before suddenly swoops in rudely and deletes thousand of bytes and potentially hours spent of hard work without significant discussion first. Castncoot (talk) 15:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Castncoot - That's completely understandable and I don't blame you for feeling that way at all. Can you and who I refer to as "Bob" (this IPv6 IP user) collaborate and go over things together so that you're both on the same page (no pun intended) and can work together to resolve some of the concerns mentioned? I'm willing to help too if required; just let me know. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• We should only include people who actually have articles in these lists because that's the only way we can be sure that we're not just including names willy nilly. And, no, it does not follow that we would end up in an infinite circle of logic and no articles at all. The fact of the matter is that articles on people are vetted by the community and survive only if the person is notable. Names in a list, on the other hand, are not reviewed by the community for notability and anyone can pop in a name and probably get away with it. I'm trying to assume good faith here but linking to surnames smells of trying to avoid having to deal with names getting removed because there are no linked articles. regentspark (comment) 16:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

  I'm taking one at random: "executive manager, five-star luxury Hotel Park Hyatt New York in Midtown Manhattan". Doesn't sound remotely notable to me and I, for one, would prefer to see a linked article to make sure that the person is actually notable enough for inclusion. --regentspark (comment) 16:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

  My understanding, then, is that the problem is that I "rudely swooped in"--sorry for the quotations, but there we are. The hours spent adding all those non notables now translates into a time sink for anyone who subsequently goes down the lines of inadequately referenced and unlinked people. The path forward would be for the editor who wishes to introduce the names to first create the stand alone articles, rather than deflecting by arguing that I've ventured into vandalism or using multiple accounts for no good. My first question is why these were all added to begin with. My second question is whether we remove unlinked names in these two articles en masse, or do a line item veto. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 21:36, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

As I understand it, the accepted criterion for these lists is that they have to be shown notable in the sense of having an article or being obviously qualified for one, and there has to be evidence for their connection with the place or whatever. I normally remove any where the information given shows lack of obvious qualifications, but if there's no indication other than the name, I search to see who it is. It might be someone notable as Politician, for example. In that case I add the qualification and the reference, tho ideally I should make a stub article. (and for names removed from the list, it is unfortunately necessary to check they have not been added somewhere else equally inappropriately). DGG ( talk ) 23:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed response. First of all, requiring that there already be a standalone Wikipedia article about a notable person should be a non-starter. To begin with, this would require changing the definition of WP:NOTABILITY on Wikipedia. It would also be a great way of closing off expansion of Wikipedia when we should be putting our best efforts into growing the project, rather than stunting its growth. Now, let me also put another issue into perspective - the issue of what makes notability on this list. See, you have to remember that this is an article about notable Koreans or Korean Americans in the New York City metropolitan region. Therefore, people who are local journalists are notable because they cover the local NYC area news and will be familiar faces or names to the local population. That's what the whole purpose of these regional list articles is, to bring out people who are locally notable in their own communities throughout the world. So for example, a Jakartans in journalism article or a Koreans in Jakarta article would include people of local notability. I don't see the distinction between the notability of local politicians, who are explicitly spelled out in local Category:Municipalities in New Jersey articles, even without their own standalone articles, versus journalists. There should be no distinction between a politician and the journalist who covers those politicians (not to mention other matters as well). I hope I've explained my rationale clearly. This will encourage the growth of other similar local and regional articles as well. If you shut the process down with arbitrary rules, it's simply a disservice for our readers not to be able to refer to information about local communities by putting a chilling pall on expansion. Castncoot (talk) 23:45, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, no on all counts. We don't include people because they're known by some people in a local area. Wikipedia has notability guidelines, and those aren't moveable goalposts simply because you or I have seen someone on local tv or read their articles in the local paper. Then there's the contention that there's no distinction between a politician and the journalist who writes about them, which is amiss on a fundamental level, per WP:NOTINHERITED. We do expect that a standalone article precede a listing, as several administrators have concurred here. That's a fundamental and non-controversial premise. I'm glad I've brought this here; the misunderstanding of notability guidelines is profound, and suggests a more thorough look through the edit history, beyond the two articles I've noted. As arguments for expansion, they exist outside the realm of our guidelines. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 00:03, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

The regional lists are not to show people that are notable in a region, but to show people in a region that also are notable beyond that. We are not a who's who database, which is the argument that you are using. We avoid having articles on people that are only known locally since we are a global encyclopedia. --Masem (t) 00:12, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Not every admin in this thread concurs that there needs to be a pre-existing standalone article to determine notability, as you see in the discussion above. I'm obviously not an admin, but I've expressed my opinion for whatever it's worth, in the event that a policy or guideline is in the works now to be communicated to all Wikipedia editors, many (if not a plurality) of whom likely have the same understanding I do. It seems to be a circular argument with a fundamentally flawed premise that there must be a precedent standalone article to determine notability. It's the presence of adequate sourcing which determines the potential for an article and its notability. That's precisely why we don't use other Wikipedia articles as reliable sources. Also, this is a global encyclopedia to learn about locally and globally significant topics. Castncoot (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

No, that's just not correct. Notability is based on independent coverage from secondary sources. And because of the promotional issue, WP:AUD says that topics that can only be sourced to local sources are not considered notable. We're also a who's who - just because we might be able to make these lists of all documentable people in an area doesn't mean we should.

This doesn't mean we absolutely need a blue-linked article, but the evidence to include should show a high likelihood that we would create a bluelinked article in the future. Such as if the person met WP:NBIO or if you can show a couple secondary sources. Keep in mind we do not have inherient notability, so just being a local politician or journalist or the like is not sufficient at all. But most of the time, these lists will only contain blue-linked names. --Masem (t) 02:32, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I've added a third article above. And I've only gone back to mid-February. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 00:29, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I've added a fourth article. Take, for example, the two Hofstra university professors in the list. If we added every Indian American professor (even just the tenured ones) we'll have a book length article in place. The "locally-known" argument is completely against policy not only because it goes against our definition of notability but also it implies that an editor could add anyone they happen to know as long as they can attach a profession to their name and, perhaps, a website somewhere that verifies the existence of the person, a bar that includes almost everyone today. --regentspark (comment) 02:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

It's standard to only include people/objects on a list that have an article written on them. I thought that was a given. 209.152.44.201 (talk) 03:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no. I agree with you that that's a good rule of thumb but it is not currently, to the best of my knowledge, a requirement. The only requirement is "notability" in the sense that the person would qualify for an article on Wikipedia, even if one does not correctly exist. We probably need an RfC on this but, in the meantime, I think we can safely delete names that are not sourced to independent sites that demonstrate notability. I also think that we can use WP:BRD to push the onus for demonstrating notability on the editor adding an item to the list since we're only removing names from a list rather than deleting an article. --regentspark (comment) 05:34, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I saw this before but wasn't totally sure that ANI is the right place to discuss it. But since we are, I think we should try to separate the issues. From what I can tell, nearly everyone agrees that for a list of the sort outlined above, every entry should be notable. This means that an article could be created on the subject that would survive AFD. I think most of us also agree that at a minimum, every entry needs a ref that establishes this notability. If someone adds a bunch of names either without sourcing or without sufficient sourcing to establish notability then they should stop. Some random hotel manager is probably not notable without further evidence of notability.

There is disagreement on whether it's useful to add people who are notable before articles exist. From the little I've seen, the community has often rejected such lists when they get unwieldy i.e. there are too many people who lack articles. This is in part because with sourcing, it can be confusing to contest notability when it's not in the form of an AFD. AFAIK it isn't unheard of to impose a requirement that only blue links are allowed.

In other cases, editors choose even more stringent requirements, such as already having an article written (not just qualifying for one), or being notable specifically for reasons related to membership in this group. This is commonly used to control the size of lists that could otherwise run to hundreds or thousands of people, such as the List of American film actresses.

While it may seem WP:LISTPEOPLE technically only covers stand alone lists, it makes no sense that such a requirement may exist for a stand alone list but not a list within an article where it generally matters more it doesn't get unwieldy. Besides the next section seems to refer to articles. By the same token, a common solution is that all entries should be wikilinks, whether red or blue. (To articles on the subject.) This tends to make it clearer that there is a problem i.e. too many people have been added without articles.

This does create BLP risks, if we link to the red link Axe Murderer intended for the future article on the Korean American in NYC and then someone with the name Axe Murderer gets famous for something dodgy, like killing people with an axe, and one of our editors creates the article without checking existing incoming links. But still, I don't think we ever agreed red links on LPs are banned and it's not like people don't sometimes blue link a LP without checking the target is the right subject.

I definitely don't think the whole name of the person should be wikilinked to articles on their surname. These sort of WP:easter egg links are too confusing to the reader. If you click on a link for "Michelle Yeoh", you expect to end up on an article for Michelle Yeoh and not Yang (surname). If there is really cause to link the surnames, this should be only on the surname not the whole name. Frankly I'm not convinced there is sufficient reason since it's not like there will be a direct link once all the articles on these notable people are create.

I also question how well the information has been verified if we lack a stand alone article and we're just relying on one or two sources. As always, editor WP:OR should be discouraged. For example, someone with a Malaysian Chinese father and a South or North Korean mother living in New York may very well identify as a Korean Americans in New York City so may reasonably be included in such a list. They may also identify as a Chinese in New York City or something similar, but even if they do, there's no guarantee all sources are going to note that, nor the info on their parents. If their name is Jennifer Lee, linking to Lee (Korean surname) could be weird if their surname actually comes from their father's Li (surname 李).

Nil Einne (talk) 13:05, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Some good points raised by people above. But I would implore people not to turn Wikipedia into an elitist platform, but rather one that really is open and relevant to everyone. Unfortunately, the stark reality is that local journalists and businessmen of prominence within Kigali, Rwanda simply don't have the same platform to become prominent in the same way that people under the glaring lights of NYC the media capital do. If we don't encourage the acknowledgement of their local notability, IMO we are depriving the people of Rwanda and states within its vicinity the encouragement and motivation to join the Wikipedia community en masse. Wikipedia abounds with obscure local human-geographic as well as local non-human geographic topics; why can't this same notability leeway be extended to local human non-politician non-geographic topics?...something to think about. Castncoot (talk) 02:43, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

To the last sentence: WP:Other stuff exists. We are certainly aware that there is bias towards the developed, English-speaking world on en-Wikipedia, but we simply can't afford to extend notability to "people who could potentially be notable under our current rules if they were located elsewhere" - that would be entirely unworkable. ansh666 03:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Before this gets archived, is there a consensus on these articles and edits? It doesn't appear that Castncoot accepts the policy yet. 2601:188:180:1481:DC58:C3F7:4619:B4D9 (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Since we are a reliably sourced encyclopedia and not a crowd sourced one, we cannot add people to these lists with a "I happen to have heard of them" logic, whether they be from Kigali or New York. Reliable, independent sources must be made available. I don't think we need consensus to say that you can remove anyone who has an uncertain notability and leave it to the editor adding the names to demonstrate notability by providing reliable independent sources that support that assertion. That's totally in line with our policies on WP:V and the WP:BIO standard. Some "common sense" leeway is probably acceptable but a reliable, independent source is definitely a must (in other words, merely providing a link to an organization homepage is not enough). --regentspark (comment) 07:15, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I've done a lot of list maintenance since noticing several years ago their particular tendency towards being spammed without anyone removing the spam. To ensure we have encyclopedic lists and not something that falls into WP:NOT (directories, yellow pages, link farms, spam, guestbooks, etc.), we have things like WP:CSC and WP:LISTPEOPLE (and, well, WP:N). We don't want lists that are all inclusive with very few exceptions. Generally, it's ok to include some redlinks/blacktext in a list that can be exhaustive (discographies, lists of contributors to a work, lists of heads of state, list of letters in a given alphabet) but not for a list of examples. For those, we need to have a standard. On Wikipedia, we separate things in terms of what's notable. That doesn't, at least in an absolute sense, mean that lists of examples must all only contain blue links, but it does mean they should contain notable entries (established by our notability criteria, and supported by references that demonstrate that notability). As with anything else across Wikipedia, there's always a preference, but not a requirement, to search for sources before removing insufficiently sourced content. That goes doubly for lists of people as per LISTPEOPLE. Lists are articles where our policies and guidelines often go out the window -- many of them have few people watching, and they're very easy to say "hey, I'll add myself/my band/my company/my grandparents/someone I know who lives there". Wikipedia's policies do reproduce a lot of systemic bias from the rest of the world. To some extent this is unavoidable. The successful projects to address systemic bias work within Wikipedia's rules to ensure the representation of people from underrepresented peoples/subjects/areas who are notable according to our guidelines. It's an imperfect solution (hardly a solution at all), but while it's important to understand and keep systemic bias in mind for certain kinds of edge cases, it's hard to use it as an argument to simply put aside this or that guideline... All of this said, I don't know why we're talking about this on ANI. :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:17, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Several administrators have voiced skepticism as to my bringing this here. I was clear about the rationale, which I think is adequate: I attempted to remove non notables from two articles (we've since added two more articles to those above), and had these edits reverted with the suggestion that I was vandalizing or a sock puppet (?). Then I added two appropriate maintenance templates, which were also quickly removed. The issue involves a prolific editor's misunderstanding of policy. I'd like to have a record of discussion here, should I be challenged again on non controversial removals. Thank you, 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 19:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

User:JohnTopShelf

JohnTopShelf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I originally filed a AN3 report on the editor (here) for multiple 1RR violation in 48 hours, but upon reviewing their User talk comments, their incivility is glaring.

This user seems to have a history of inserting personal attacks, trolling, and snide comments under the guise of WikiLove messages. Just to name a few:[6][7][8][9]. User account is 6 years old, was shown BLP and AP Ds notices back in August and February, but shows a complete disregard for consensus. The very rich history of warnings on their talk page isn't convincing that this isn't a WP:NOTHERE account. Actions may be required for this such rigorous violations. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 03:26, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Note: I have blocked the user for 72 hours to stop their blatant, repeated edit warring. That should not prevent a discussion here about whether there should be additional or longer sanctions for their disruptive behavior. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

In the latest edit-warring spat they have also violated WP:COPYVIO. Please see the details in my comment at the article talk. Dr. K. 03:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I see this is JohnTopShelf's second block. Black Kite blocked them for 48 hours in February. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:25, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have noticed this editor's behavior over the past few weeks. To me, he seems incapable of working collaboratively with other Wikipedia editors. His edit-warring and POV-pushing on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and ludicrous edit requests like this one - "of course, I understand that Wikipedia editors and administrators are overwhelming liberals who no doubt share the opinion that President Trump is a liar" - are really indications of little to no willingness to work with other editors . In addition, his WikiLove taunts fall way outside the boundaries of basic civility and respect that editors should be exuding here. Zingarese talk · contribs 04:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

• I reverted this editor at a BLP about a month ago, and it resulted in a lengthy discussion split between my talk page and their talk page, which was a very pleasant disagreement in which I was left with two barnstars, two beers, a goat and a cookie. Unfortunately, the editor was blocked just a few hours later. Since coming off the block, there are more warnings on the talk page and now another block for edit warring. I haven't see any personal attacks from them myself–in fact they seem rather polite to me–and they clearly can communicate, write prose, and cite sources. While the account is old, they have very few edits, and mostly in the last two years. Their source selection is lopsided but other than a few Daily Mail links its mostly Fox News which is allowed. The POV is definitely there in their edits, but not to an unusual degree. The problem IMO is the editor's steadfast refusal to use or respect the consensus system that is used here in Wikipedia. If they went to the article talk pages, presented their sources, and shopped their copy like everyone else, they'd probably get a lot further. But they just keep edit warring and wikilove-arguing. I feel like they could be a useful contributor if they wanted to. Leviv ich 04:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

@Levivich: That discussion on your user talk looked like an intimidating wall of text with an astounding degree of WikiLove abuse and trolling. I'd remove it on sight per WP:DENY. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 04:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I've had such less pleasant conversations though, even with proper formatting and whatnot. I mean, haven't we all? He didn't call me any names or make any accusations. Calling another editor's statement "nonsense" and saying that Wikipedia has a left-wing bias are not outside the range of reasonable opinions to express. If it's trolling, it's very calm and polite trolling. I can live with bizarre wikilove messages if they're polite, but I can't live with habitual edit warring, and SPA POV pushing is also tiring. To me those are bigger concerns than civility or personal attacks. Leviv ich 04:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

The message left on my talk page was definitely sarcastic, but I sort of get the sense that this editor is under the impression that wikilove messages are the preferred way to communicate with other editors about article content -they've hardly ever used an article talk page. They also seem confused about the meaning of consensus. Maybe this is a WP:CIR problem, but I don't think they're purely trolling. Nblund ^talk 17:20, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

• Copyvio update I have since found more extensive copyvios for the edit of the now blocked user. Please see this updated copyvio report for these paragraphs. Dr. K. 05:29, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Justlettersandnumbers revdeled 5 revisions containing the copyvios. Dr. K. 21:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

• More copyvios by the same user I am copying from my message at Justlettersandnumbers's talkpage. It seems many of the large-scale edits to articles by this user are copyvios. Copyvio from Kansascity.com, copyvio from Washington examiner.com, copyvio from politifact.com, the usual copyvio about Greenpeace but pasted to a different article. In addition, Justlettersandnumbers has revdeled two additional copyvios from the Alexandria Cortez article: copyvio 1 and copyvio 2. Dr. K. 23:07, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

 Done by the same admin. ~Swarm~ {talk} 08:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Disruptive editing on National Hockey League articles (revisited)

Original report

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Revisiting a case that was closed as I believe that there was no long term solution to resolve this case. An explanation of this situation is provided on the previous report that I have linked. The user that I have concerns with is NicholasHui (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), as they have been making persistent disruptive edits on certain NHL articles. Yowashi (talk) 06:13, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

• Do you have any specific examples? SportingFlyer T·C 07:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Don't expect people to wade through the wall of text from the previous ANI.—Bagumba (talk) 09:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Note on other account: NicholasHui had another account with which they edited with before. I had asked them to mark it as retired, or they could have stated a legitimate reason to keep it around, but they did not respond. I have since blocked the other account.[10].—Bagumba (talk) 09:55, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Here are some more recent examples of NicholasHui's contributions that were incorrect. ([11], [12], [13]). I made corrections to these at a later time. The thing that I can't understand is why they can't just wait for the information provided by this source (which they don't use) to be updated.

Some information I add in to the GAA average for Goaltender Statistics comes from the NHL Teams 2018-19 regular season stats. An example is I changed Anthony Stolaz's GAA average to 3.43 because I saw it from the Edmonton Oilers regular season stats. But even though I put it to 3.43 GAA average, Sabbatino informed me that the information Yowashi gets is from http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?report=goaliesummary&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20182019&seasonTo=20182019&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=team.22&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=wins. I even said that on my edit summary from the Edmonton Oilers 2018-19 season page history. NicholasHui (talk). — Preceding unsigned comment added by NicholasHui (talk • contribs) 16:38, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the issues raised by OP, I am concerned by edits like this (possible sock?) and this (CIR). GiantSnowman 16:41, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I think a large part of the problem is that NicholasHui (evidenced by their own statement above and by the last ANi report) is not using reliable sources. As far as I could tell, NicholasHui was coming up with numbers on their own (failing WP:OR), taking them from live TV broadcasts of the games, or using unreliable sources (a fact which they warned about by Sabbatino here). I'll note that the last ANI was closed with this warning about about WP:V and WP:OR (as well as not socking). Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!} 20:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Completely agree with Captain Eek. Nicholas Hui calculates the information on their own, and then publishes their information on an article. This is the reason why the numbers for the goaltenders don't always match with the information provided from official sources. I honestly don't know why someone like Nicholas Hui would even waste time calculating all these numbers when you can just simply refer to a reliable source. On the plus side of using a reliable source, there is a 100% chance of being correct rather than calculating all these numbers and end up being incorrect. That's what makes me have so many questions about this individual. Also, here is another example of Nicholas Hui's contributions on the 2018–19 Ottawa Senators season article [14]. I'll give them props for fixing it, but again, they are still calculating these numbers. Yowashi (talk) 03:12, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Just to know that I admit to calculating the playing time for Ottawa Senators goaltender statistics incorrectly was because the game was not totally finalized yet. That was why. Also, stop complaining how my updates are like when they are correct. Note that when you updated the Calgary Flames 2018-19 season player statistics when they lost to Arizona Coyotes 2-0, you forgot to add in the Games played for Garnet Hathaway and it was on your behalf. So that was partially on you. You look at the Ottawa Senators 2018-19 season stats and you find that another IP User editing the Ottawa Senators page does it similar to how my edit strategy is because I was following that user's example on the Ottawa Senators season page since. NicholasHui (talk)

I didn't forget. In my defense, for whatever reason, NHL.com had Hathaway's GP listed at 61. Every other player on the Flames roster had been updated so I assumed that Hathaway's was updated as well. My mistakes are different from yours, as mine are not intentional, yours are, because you intentionally provide incorrect information. If you want me to stop complaining about your edits, then listen to what myself and other people have been trying to tell you this entire time. Other than that, I'm gonna keep complaining until you learn how to edit the proper way. Yowashi (talk) 03:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Now I'm being accused on my talk page for not updating the stats correctly even though I explained the situation in my comment above. Honestly, in my opinion, this individual is not here to build an encyclopedia. Yowashi (talk) 04:13, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Comment @NicholasHui: I'm unclear what you were trying to achieve by making accusations on Yowashi's talk page as well as here at this ANI discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 05:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Most recent update @NicholasHui: For your most recent edit to update Toronto's stats (looks like an hour or two at most) after the end of their game, can you explain the specific sources you use to edit those stats? Thank you.—

The stats I add in to the wikipedia stats are from the recap games on the team stats for that game only. NicholasHui (talk) Sometimes, I might use the official team stat source if I was unsure of how my edits match to the official source.

Bagumba (talk) 02:49, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@Bagumba: I believe NicholasHui uses this as their reference. However, there is a waiting period until it gets updated. The only other possible source I can think of is this one, but this one doesn't display the player's stats for the entire season. So, my guess is that they calculate the new stats by adding on or subtracting any of the numbers from a player's previous game. For goaltenders, they definitely calculate the stats, considering a goaltender's stats for the entire season are not displayed anywhere on the game recaps. The recaps only show their statistics for that specific game only. Yowashi (talk) 05:33, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@Yowashi: NicholasHui might be using this (or any other teams' website) as his source, which does not get updated immediately. I must also note that teams' websites tend to list different information than the main NHL stats website. Seeing that stats differ, I assume that some teams calculate the stats differently than the NHL. In addition, teams' stats websites tend to list only current players and omit any player who was sent to another league (two-way players), traded, bought out, etc., which just shows that you cannot get a full list and correct stats from the teams' websites. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:43, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@Sabbatino: Perhaps NicholasHui does use the team's website as their source. For example, when they changed Anthony Stolarz's GAA to 3.43, the only source that I found that had that information was from the Oilers' official website. I initially thought that 3.43 could have been his GAA with the Flyers and Oilers, but I realized that the stats only reflect time on a player's current team. I still believe that NicholasHui calculates the stats, as there is no source that has all this information updated immediately after a game has concluded. They also update the stats section very quickly after every game, so that would eliminate the usage of sources besides the ones that I mentioned previously. I do believe that they had mentioned getting their information from the recaps sometime in the past. Yowashi (talk) 08:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't depend too much on official NHL team sources. Many of them haven't even updated their captains & alternate captains, for the current season. GoodDay (talk) 18:23, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Recent contributions by NicholasHui. (2018–19 Toronto Maple Leafs season [15], 2018–19 Calgary Flames season [16], 2018–19 Winnipeg Jets season [17]) My contributions from March 16 that are corrections to NicholasHui's edits. (2018–19 Toronto Maple Leafs season [18], 2018–19 Calgary Flames season [19], 2018–19 Winnipeg Jets season [20]). I used this website as my source. NicholasHui needs to be stopped from editing these articles, as it is clear that they don't use official sources to obtain their information from, and for refusing to rearrange the position of players based on total points. Yowashi (talk) 04:21, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. However, I would suggest we remain focused on 2018–19 Toronto Maple Leafs season for now, and not get too sidetracked with potentially too many open issues. I do notice that your source URL is diffrent from what is cited at 2018–19_Toronto_Maple_Leafs_season#Player_statistics. Is there any prior consensus among the WikiProject on 1) what source to use, 2) when it is reliable to update?—Bagumba (talk) 08:24, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Bagumba: We use this source instead of this one, as the latter does not show information on players that have been traded, sent down to other leagues (generally a team's American Hockey League team), their contract being terminated mid season, etc. Occasionally there may be some discrepancies between the two sources. For example, the first source that I listed from NHL.com has Frederik Andersen's GAA listed at 2.75, while the team's website has it listed at 2.74. We're not sure why there is a discrepancy, but considering that the team's website doesn't show information on players that are currently not with the organization, we have deemed the team's website as an unreliable source. Perhaps the sources provided on the team's article shall be changed to the other source, maybe during the 2019 Stanley Cup playoffs, as we still have to do statistics for teams that participate in the playoffs, or change it when articles for next season are created. NHL.com usually has the information updated 30-40 minutes after a game has concluded, but some information gets re-evaluated. It is recommended to update the stats section on articles hours or even a day later. Yowashi (talk) 16:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

There is a current discussion in regards to this topic over on the Wikiproject Ice Hockey talk page. Yowashi (talk) 16:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't mean to digress from the issue at hand but Andersen's GAA is 2.744970798183. Shouldn't it be rounded down to 2.74? I didn't even know there could ever be inconsistencies between the league website and a team's website. When I'm updating the GAA leader in the infobox for the Lightning I always just plug in the numbers to this website after a game is over, unless the game ends in overtime. Tampabay721 (talk) 01:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Just to know that when you told me that Mike Smith's saves in total he had in that game against Winnipeg Jets, I checked my work and I added in the information correctly. So the mistake was on Yowashi's behalf as he forgot to add one more save in total in the game against Arizona Coyotes. I admit the mistake was part of mine because I assumed that Yowashi's edits where done correctly. Also, when I update the statistics for Canadian Teams, I add or subtract the players numbers from the recap game. That might be why I may be at fault for the mistakes if I was not using the official team stats source. But Yowashi has to be part of the blame too if he was not checking his own work as well. NicholasHui (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

For Mike Smith's SA, 919 was literally what I obtained from the source. So please tell me, how am I supposed to double check that, when these sources are supposed to give accurate information? Also, SA stands for (shots against), not saves. Yowashi (talk) 16:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC) How you double check the work is you also look at the recap games for the total amount of shots against he had in the teams stats for the recap game only. It can be added in to the stats on wikipedia. Mike Smith's total amount of shots against should have been 920 since he faced 26 shots against. Not 25 shots against.NicholasHui (talk)

You seriously expect me to do that? I mean, I shouldn't have to calculate numbers when I can literally take numbers from a source. Note, calculating numbers is very unreliable, and can lead to mistakes. So that's why I don't do that. Also, if you think you're so darn good at updating the stats, then you do it. We'll see how well that goes. Yowashi (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

[21] [22] Edits to standings by NicholasHui earlier today incorrectly indicating an eliminated team. Tampabay721 (talk) 02:05, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Recent contribution by NicholasHui incorrectly calculating Andrei Vasilevskiy's GAA [23]. It is 2.26 according to NHL.com. How many more examples do we need, to prove that this guy shouldn't be updating these articles? The fact that no action has been made against NicholasHui just blows my mind. Yowashi (talk) 02:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Warning from previous ANI In light of the blanking reported in subsection below, it seems that an earlier warning by admin Abecedare to NicholasHui after the last ANI got lost in the shuffle in this current ANI discussion. The previous post advise: If you wish to discuss the issue of when player statistics should be updated and what sources can be used for the purpose, you should do so at WT:HOCKEY and establish consensus that is compliant with wikipedia's content policies. A clear consensus was never established, yet the editor continues editing in the disputed area, even as this new ANI is active.—Bagumba (talk) 04:38, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed topic ban

Clearly some action needs to be taken here. The time and effort of editors is being used to fix NicholasHui's continued mistakes. Thus I propose that:

NicholasHui is topic banned from updating sports statistics in articles for a period of 1 year, at which time they may appeal their ban at AN. Lifting of the topic ban will be contingent on NicholasHui's edits and behavior showing that they fully understand WP:V and WP:OR.

• Support as proposer. NicholasHui was warned at the closure of the last ANI involving them and hockey to follow WP:V and WP:OR. They continue to show disregard for reliable sources. Perahps some time away from sports articles will give them time to fully understand what reliable sourcing means. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 03:43, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Note: NicholasHui just blanked this section after I posted it [24]. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 03:55, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I left a warning on his user talk page asking him not to do that, which he promptly deleted. Oh well... so long as he understands and he doesn't continue the behavior, that's the important part... :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support, this might be a case of WP:COMPETENCE, too. He's certainly not heeding any advice. GoodDay (talk) 03:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support, it's hard to assume good faith at this point, especially given the several instances of comment removals. Tampabay721 (talk) 04:03, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support, NicholasHui needs to be punished for their actions, as they have continued to refuse countless messages and warnings in regards to this situation. They continue to display odd behavior when it comes to editing NHL related articles, despite being told the proper procedure of updating statistics. Yowashi (talk) 04:09, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Bans are not meant to punish, but rather to prevent further disruption. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 04:29, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Correct. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:01, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Current block NicholasHui has been blocked for 60 hours. See details above.—Bagumba (talk) 04:55, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

After the block expires, would we still be able to discuss this proposed topic ban? Yowashi (talk) 04:56, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Ignore my comment above. I posted my previous comment before reading the details in regards to NicholasHui's block. Yowashi (talk) 04:59, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - the blocked editor is now editing signed out. Suggest we be on the look out for possible socks as well. GoodDay (talk) 05:28, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

GoodDay - Where? Under what IP? ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

At his talkpage, but I'm mistaken. It's just an IP, helping him with his 'unblock' request. GoodDay (talk) 05:32, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

No problem; this IP user seems legitimate, so I agree that he/she appears to just be helping... :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:33, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, looks like they needed similar help on their unblock request in February as well.—Bagumba (talk) 05:36, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Thus my concerns about his competency on Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 05:39, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment What are the other areas outside of hockey statistics has the the user made positive contributions?—Bagumba (talk) 05:59, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Hmmm checking their contribs reveals that Hockey is really their only area of editing. The only other area they seem to have contributed to has been rev-deled (at Ariel Castro kidnappings). Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 06:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

The revdel reason shows COPYVIO.—Bagumba (talk) 06:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Ah, well that doesn't inspire confidence. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 07:00, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment First off, I want to thank the admins and the others that participated in this for assisting with this situation. I think this situation would have dragged out even further if it weren't for the community. So, thank you all for that. Back to the proposal of the topic ban, I think that a topic ban would be the best solution for this. It's clear that NicholasHui didn't get the memo from their first block on February 28, and I don't think anything would change when their current block expires. For me, I'm pretty exhausted about having to argue about something like this, and I don't want to have the same thing happen again in the future. I'm open to any thoughts or suggestions from anyone. Yowashi (talk) 08:09, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Range block needed again for Malaysian nationality vandal (the third ANI filing for the same range within a year)

• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive994#User:2405:3800::/32
• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive997#Range_block_needed_again_for_Malaysian_nationality_vandal
• 2405:3800:502:1047:ccaa:3003:bae7:df77 (talk · contribs) (vandalize full name and change lede nationality )
• ‎2405:3800:400:7bf6:4c0c:5ef4:ce08:5df5 (talk · contribs) (vandalize nationality to hoax value)
• 2405:3800:483:97E0:ECB3:A26B:74EA:9F19 (talk · contribs) (full name vandal)
• Fernando Muslera (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (the ip change Uruguayan to hoax value: Malaysian, just like last two ANI filings)
• Wan Kuzain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Sporting Kansas City (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Fuad Ramli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (the ip change Singaporean to hoax value: Malaysian )
• Faris Ramli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (the ip change Singaporean to hoax value: Malaysian )
• Ariff Farhan Isa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Khairil Anuar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Ki Sung-yueng (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (hoax given name, change medal to hoax value to gold)

5df5 had a short block (36h) recently within this week, but it seem it need longer. Matthew hk (talk) 08:38, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Update. After 5df5 was blocked for 2 weeks, immediately ip hopping as usual to 2405:3800:483:62C7:8C9F:D50D:7AD5:84A2 (talk · contribs) and vandalise Sporting Kansas City again. Matthew hk (talk) 13:26, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Latest is 2405:3800:402:7B3E:2425:BDA3:322E:5A8A (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Nzd (talk) 19:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

And now 2405:3800:401:2D2B:E967:2598:3310:7D03 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Nzd (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Yup, pass WP:DUCK test on yet again vandalize Mulan (Disney character). Matthew hk (talk) 10:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• It became a ritual to list out how wide spread this vandal before getting someone else notice.

• Amirul Azhan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (full name vandal)
• Ikhsan Fandi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (unsourced full name)
• Irfan Fandi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (unsourced full name)
• Fadzrul Danel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (unsourced change in name)
• Adib Zainudin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (unsourced change in name)

Matthew hk (talk) 20:51, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Now at 2405:3800:502:100A:862:AE07:E0E9:52AE (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Matthew hk (talk) 12:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

New article victim Bryan Nickson Lomas. Matthew hk (talk) 12:44, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Asia's Got Talent (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Asia's Got Talent (season 1) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Saiful Apek (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

KRU (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Syamer Kutty Abba (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

--Matthew hk (talk) 15:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Now at 2405:3800:280:3D9D:8FC:3ED6:C6EF:D3D2 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Matthew hk (talk) 21:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I've blocked the IPv6 range 2405:3800::/37 for 3 months. This should put a stop to the disruptive editing observed and listed here. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:44, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

175.143.166.187+175.143.166.162 (same user)

Ip user on 175.143.166.187 was given several warnings to not add unsourced content to GeForce 16 series and Nvidia PureVideo. User has refused to stop removing the unsourced content (1650) despite leaving a message on their talk page. User also decided to make an attacking comment in one of their edits on the GeForce 16 series insulting the editors that reverted the ip's edits. Ip's edits also caused several users to request page protection for Geforce 16 series page. After issuing the warning, user decided to change to 175.143.166.162 to readd the unsourced info. Due to persistent addition of unsourced or improperly cited material and after being recommended by one of the admins on the requests for protection page to report the user here if it were to continue, i decided to post this message here since the user appears to refuse to remove the unsourced material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thesmartbird (talk • contribs) 13:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

After some time, 175.143.166.162 decided to remove the notice and the warning by blanking the page. User proceeded to re-add the unsourced/leaked info that ip admitted to doing, on Geforce 16 series, Nvidia PureVideo, High Efficiency Video Coding, and High Efficiency Video Coding implementations and products. The user did not blank the page on its other ip, but has shown that it has disregarded the the avi notice and warning that was posted on one of the talk pages the user has access to. Thesmartbird (talk) 18:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

GeForce 16 series semi-protected for a week per WP:RFPP, but I'd like to see some discussion on the article talk pages. Miniapolis 23:11, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure how effective that would be seeing that the user has jumped to another ip 175.143.190.121. On that ip, the user readded the unreliable info that was previously removed. Also on the Turing_(microarchitecture) page, 175.143.184.172 appears to be the same user as the other 3 ip's, having been previously warned by a different editor for vandalising that particular page. I placed the avi notices on the other ips. I'm not sure what action you would take, but it looks like that the user appears to not want to communicate at all (aside from the attacking comment it made on one of its edits on one of the ip's it used). Thesmartbird (talk) 13:20, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP range 175.143.160.0/19 for 72 hours for the repeated addition of unreferenced content to articles. This was the narrowest range that I calculated from the three IP addresses provided here, and should hopefully put a temporary stop to the issues. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Lawsuit talk by Cold Fusion 2019

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Cold Fusion 2019 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user contacted ජපස (aka jzg) about an ongoing lawsuit against Wikipedia ([25] [26]). WP:NLT seems to apply to this, but I'm honestly not 100% sure. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:05, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Did you mean jps? -Roxy, the dog. wooF 19:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I did... I don't even have a good excuse for that. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:15, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Actually, you have a decent excuse for that; CF19 left an identical message for JzG. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:17, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh! That's where I saw that... somehow mixed up ජපස's signature with JzG EvergreenFir (talk) 19:19, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I've indef'd Cold Fusion 2019 for NOTHERE. Their ONLY two edits are to post about a lawsuit filed against Wikipedia? Chances are it's very likely a sock as well. Either way, block applied. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:21, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, my guess is SF-banned User:Abd. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I saw this elsewhere. CF2019 is not the one doing the suing. I am not sure NLT applies in this case. spryde | talk 19:31, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Just because CF19 says they aren't the ones doing the suing, doesn't mean they aren't the ones doing the suing. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:35, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

FYI if you're interested in the plaintiff's perspective - I couldn't access the actual lawsuit. [[27]] TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:40, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Not really. I just remember him from long ago in the WP community and other groups. spryde | talk 19:45, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Even if this is not the person pursuing the legal case, they are making demands based on the legal case, and I'd say NLT very much applies. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:47, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

IMO, the WP:NLT policy says that "while you may sue in a court of law, Wikipedia is not the place for legal disputes" and that users "are typically blocked from editing while the threats are outstanding". A block is removed if the threat is "genuinely and credibly withdrawn". Should a user make good on their threat, and the lawsuit is unresolved, I think a block would still be appropriate is the same spirit as this policy. And the parallel for a "genuinely and credibly withdrawn" would be the legal resolution of any lawsuits. (Maybe this could be proposed as an amendment to NLT through a discussion at VPP?) EvergreenFir (talk) 20:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

How to put this. "I ain't da guy, sees? But what you did to dis guy was bad, sees? So, if you know what's good for ya, sees." Clearly a legal threat and clearly a ham-handed attempt to disown it. DlohCierekim 05:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Technically it's not a legal threat if the lawsuit is already filed. The same NLT principles apply, though. Ongoing litigation shouldn't be discussed on-wiki because, inter alia, anything that's said about the lawsuit could be used as evidence in the lawsuit and that would make WMF's lawyers pull their hair out (if they have any). Maybe NLT should be updated to say explicitly that making legal threats or discussing ongoing litigation is prohibited. Leviv ich 15:30, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I believe that, if it becomes necessary for ජපස and JzG to defend against this suit, the WikiMedia Foundation should help them do so. (I realize this may not be the best place for this comment. But, where is the best place?) Cardamon (talk) 04:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

my talk page is being vandalized

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

review my edit history. look at the articles i've written for context. make a decision. I dont want to participate in the wiki project anymore if it's like this. I dont see any substantive reason for the warning and the warning message is written to make me look bad. I'm not getting any reasonable replies. all or nothing, just delete this account if you think it's inappropriate.

Verify references (talk) 20:55, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

@Verify references: Howdy hello! I understand that warnings don't feel good. But the warnings are just that: only cautionary notes about behavior. Even folks who've been on this project for years and made tens of thousands of edits still get warned about things. The warnings on your talk page asked that you be civil and not use pejorative language. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, and we prefer to keep curses and pejoratives out of interactions. We invite you to continue editing Wikipedia, but remind you that there are standards for editing and interacting. TLDR: you are free to keep editing, but please don't use slurs. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:15, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki//b/tard

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2Fb%2Ftard

https://gawker.com/5609419/4chan-founder-tries-to-explain-b-tard-to-federal-prosecutors

it's not hateful language by any means. it's a term used with ownership among his community. the content i posted was specifically about that. if you want to debate that stupid people make bad choices, i'm happy to dig up old books i havnt read in 10 years for references to debate it but i stand by what i said. The shooter is just a retard from the internet not some ex-mil serbian nationalist like news sources were suggesting earlier in the day.

Verify references (talk) 22:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Uh oh. EEng 22:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

If you don't see how using the word "retard" as a pejorative is offensive, then we have a problem. Competency is required at Wikipedia, and that term is highly offensive for people with intellectual disabilities, and those who care for people with intellectual disabilities. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

@Verify references: Whether or not you think its offensive, consensus on Wikipedia holds that its pejorative use is very offensive. My recommendation to you is that if you'd like to continue editing Wikipedia, you should pledge to not use offensive language and to be civil, retract your above statement, and not attempt to argue whether or not it was offensive. You were warned already by DrMies to never use the term ever again [28], and yet you immediately and brazenly disregarded that [29] You are on very thin ice here. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 23:06, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

imagine you made an edit to say...Arab–Israeli conflict and all people could see was a warning description saying, "NEVER CALL PEOPLE THAT NAME EVER AGAIN" you may as well be banned because people will only twinkle the **** out of anything you post anyway. the notice should reflect the offence. Verify references (talk) 01:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd argue that the notice did reflect the problem. The warning template was a template warning about disruptive editing. While you may not have intended to be disruptive, its outcome was disruptive. An action that impedes the building of the encyclopedia, such as using a conversation stopping slur, is considered disruptive. Thus you were given a standard disruptive editing warning, with an addendum dealing with your specific action. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 04:10, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry too much about the incivility of calling someone a tard if the person in question is the mosque shooter. But yeah, Verify References, we supposedly aim for a more decorous writing style when we can manage it. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 07:04, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

If Verify Thinks that that Word is Ok then I think we Have a Boomerang Situation Jena (talk) 15:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Intriguingly, this user reminds me of VerifiedFixes (talk · contribs), whom some of you may remember, and who retired at about the time Verify references got started. Also similarly, Verify references has now retired. DlohCierekim 05:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Something that Beyond My Ken also noticed in the last [30], almost boomerang inducing, ANI filed by Verify. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 09:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• IMHO, if we so lack in an ability to collaborate collaboratively on a collaborative project, and if we hand out words that require oversight in our edit summaries, it is perhaps for the best if we retire from the field so to speak. DlohCierekim 05:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
• As the user has "retired", I'd like to indef block them until they affirm they will not use offensive pejoratives in the future. DlohCierekim 06:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Christchurch mosque shootings

There is currently an RFC ongoing about whether the suspects names can be included in the article (Talk:Christchurch mosque shootings#RfC about keeping suspect's/suspects' name in lead). One of the suspects names has been widely published and it is becoming difficult to keep it off the page. Considering this is a BLP concern is it possible to create a tempory edit filter to prevent the name bring added until we reach consensus at the talk page. More eyes would be useful in any case. AIRcorn (talk) 22:42, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

If this is not possible could we at least get an edit notice? AIRcorn (talk) 00:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I posted five good references. so long as it is worded appropriately there should be no problem. it's unlikely to cause problems because major international news outlets have already published the name. furthermore, it will become difficult to edit the page because they've started using the name in the headlines and the name is likely to appear in any new references anyway. the arguments against it were that by using the name will only grant power to the forces of evil. Verify references (talk) 01:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I would say the main argument against was WP:BLPCRIME (policy wise at least). AIRcorn (talk) 09:42, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

This has been interesting. The consensus is clear at the rfc. In fact if anything it is even clearer since posting this. And I say that as someone on the other side of it. This page is probably the most watched page in the encyclopaedia and BLP and consensus are supposed to be our most sacred tenants. Yet nothing. Maybe its a weekend thing. No one gives a shit about a mass murderer and its not like we are in danger of upsetting him anyway (he livestreamed it for fucks sake so is obviously up for attention). I know RFC is a bit of a hit and run process and I would not blame anyone given the massive shitfest the talkpage has become (someone running through with oneclickarchiver would be doing a huge favour - I feel too involved myself). Anyway the name has been prominent in the article for a while now and I haven't noticed any objections (its a pretty hard page to follow so apologies if I missed some) outside the RFC so it may as well just stay there unless someone feels in an enforcing mood. Not sure if this is an issue to be concerned about with other less obvious cases, but that may be something for another day. Anyway I will try to keep out the names of the other less prominent suspects for now. This can probably be closed. AIRcorn (talk) 09:42, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Does the RfC apply to the current events portal?

While the main thing here seems resolved... What about Portal:Current events/2019 March 15? Does the RfC apply there? If not, should there be one? Madness ^Darkness 13:13, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't see why it wouldn't. ansh666 19:56, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Osanna M. Kazezian-Rosa' auto bio

Since the last week or so, the user User:Osanna M. Kazezian-Rosa has been trying to create an autobiography of herself. The page was deleted more than 4 times, and yet is being created. People have explained her about notability policy but she doesn't seem to have read it or understood it.

Based on her talkpage, She seems to be a children's book author. Her nearby library decided to have a site with all their authors having links to a wiki page of their own(just the link). This user too has her page on that site and created a corresponding wiki page since she believes wikipedia to be a catalog, I genuinely believe its not vandalism, but a case of a misinformed user. But she does not seem to be responding or caring about the warnings at all.Daiyusha (talk) 05:02, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

She practices yoga and enjoys hiking in nature. EEng 11:41, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I used to practice yoga and still enjoy hiking in nature. I left her some more educational material. She still has a sandbox up that needs sourcing. DlohCierekim 04:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Transgender-related POV

Involved parties

• A145GI15I95 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Mooeena (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Statement

This user cannot separate constructive criticism and suggestions for changes to their pet project page from personal attacks. They take personal offense to editors who make suggestions that counter their agenda and argue constantly in talk pages that people who detransition, or "detrans people" as they call them, are oppressed by LGBT people as a whole, transgender people, and rogue political actors. The vast majority of their edits are dedicated to righting the wrong of detrans oppression or "spreading awareness" to their cause.

In addition, they seem to have developed a vendetta against me personally, and have accused me of interfering with discussions about Detransition for prejudiced, peosonal, or politically motivated reasons and attempted to get me banned from the topic. I find it suspect that this user keeps fixating on the fact that she believes me to be transgender in their ban claims, although I have told them multiple times that I am not.

1. [31] There's a lot here, so I'm linking an archived version of the entire discussion. The user seems to claim ownership over the article Detransition. They have deliberately misinterpreted multiple users' notices as personal attacks throughout the talk page, stealth canvassed other editors from Twitter to back up their point (including one who appears to be a sock), attempted to close a WP:MEDRS discussion because they believed that the article was being attacked for political motivations, and attempted to topic ban users who they believed were opposing their view of how the article should be:
   1. 14 March 2019 ...via WP:COI because they assumed I was transgender.
   2. 14 March 2019 ...via WP:NPOV because I was "gender essentialist on my talk page" and put a NPOV tag on the article.
   3. 14 March 2019 ...and User:Equivamp via dispute resolution for "doxxing" (posting a canvassing warning) and "destroying the article."
2. 14 March 2019 Because I have been discussing the article in its talk page, this user has accused me of bullying, doxxing, false claims, and "anti-detrans" prejudice.
3. 14 March 2019 As part of their grudge against me editing the article, they linked directly to me removing slurs from my talk page in their change summary for blanking warnings from other editors and an admin on their own talk page.

I believe that I have been behaving appropriately regarding this article and this user has become increasingly hostile towards me for continuing to hold this article to Wikipedia's standards. This user has proven that they cannot edit pages related to this topic responsibly and neutrally.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mooeena (talk • contribs)

Response

This complaint was filed moments ago here, under the same seemingly inappropriate title. I asked there why it was described as a transgender issue, when the topic is detransition (separate phenoms, separate communities). I'll ask again here, please, why frame their concern for a detrans topic as trans?

Mooeena's criticisms haven't been "constructive", they've been hyperbolic and smear-based. Nearly every comment on Talk:Detransition takes a stab either at editors or at the subject matter. From merely their statement above:

• Titling this entire section "transgender-related POV", when this is about detransition (a separate topic and separate community from trans).
• Calling the article "[my] pet project", "[my] agenda", and "[my] cause".
• Using scare quotes in naming detrans people, and adding "as [I] call them" (this is as detrans folk call themselves, and it's documented in news articles and around the web).
• Claiming that I argue detrans folk are oppressed by LGBT folk "as a whole".
• Denying the documented political suppression of detransition exists.
• Wiki-lawyering.
• Claiming that I've requested anyone's ban.
• Claiming that I continued ("fixated…multiple times") to believe they're trans after they said they weren't. And my concern is for their possible trans activism, not their gender identity.
• Claiming that I "claim ownership" over the article.
• Claiming that I "deliberately misinterpreted" anyone.
• Claiming that I "stealth canvassed other editors" (an admin found this untrue).
• Accusing me of sock-puppetry.
• Shaming me for filing a COI (as they suggested suggested), and then an NPOV (as I was instructed by an admin from there).
• Shaming me for calling out an attempt to dox (confirmed by an admin).

Mooeena enterred the Talk page with slurs against the detrans community and smears against editors:

• Using scare quotes in naming detransitioners (implying they don't exist or their lives don't matter).
• Claiming the detrans community isn't marginalized.
• Describing presence of more than one citation as "sin".
• Claiming that anyone has argued detransition to be "a common occurrence".
• Claiming authors for The Atlantic and The Seattle Stranger to be unreliable.
• Confusing detransition to be a "transgender issue" (they're separate communities, that's like conflating gay with trans).
• Claiming Tumblr and "individual accounts" (unsure what that means) are cited.
• Claiming the article "conflates" transphobia with trans regret (this is among the least cited concerns of detransitioners).
• Using scare quotes for trans regret (implying it never happens).

And that's just our first interaction. And Mooeena has continually claimed to wish to re-focus on content, while returning to smears.

Mooeena's stance seems to be of the all-too-common political motivation that acknowledgment of the plight of detrans folk could somehow be a threat to the plight of trans folk.

Other editors and I have communicated civilly and reached compromises. I've repeatedly stated aim to avoid pitting trans against detrans, but rather to present the topic of detransition fairly. I'd like to continue work in improving this article, without the stress of attacks, please. A145GI15I95 (talk) 06:11, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

• I looked at that archived talk page and the points of serious disagreement aren't obvious. Could we have more calmness and AGF in the discussion? This doesn't look like a battle of entrenched viewpoints so I'd like to hope the issues can be worked out. I could try to mediate a little bit tomorrow if that helps. I made an edit to the article (added mention of an old science fiction story to the "fiction" section) so maybe that makes me "involved", but I hadn't really heard of the detransition concept before, and my edit was quite far from any of the controversy. So I think I can be impartial. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 07:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• I'm unsure of what is the actual problem here, there seems to be a lot of terms I'm not very familiar with. There seems to be disagrement between users but is it a ANI concern? I feel like this should be able to be solved some other way.★Trekker (talk) 03:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
• Having looked at the diffs linked, Mooeena's complaints seem valid. I didn't try to determine how true all of A145GI15I95's complaints were because the first few I looked for evidence of were either wrong or misleading.

Claiming that I continued ("fixated…multiple times") to believe they're trans after they said they weren't. And my concern is for their possible trans activism, not their gender identity. You did in fact start a COI noticeboard post claiming that she is trans and another claiming that she is a gender essentialist.

Claiming authors for The Atlantic and The Seattle Stranger to be unreliable. I don't see where this happened. There is discussion on the talk page about the Atlantic/the Stranger, but it's someone else mentioning this, and no one says that the authors are unreliable. Is this discussion elsewhere?

Titling this entire section "transgender-related POV", when this is about detransition (a separate topic and separate community from trans). How is the article on detransition not a transgender-related topic?

Shaming me for calling out an attempt to dox (confirmed by an admin). This is valid. Doxing is bad. Canvassing for supporters via Twitter is also bad.

So, A145GI15I95, unless you have diffs to support your list of complaints, you really oughta stop harassing Mooeena. Natureium (talk) 03:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) The arbitration looks like it will be declined. I've read everything and I think the points of disagreement aren't obvious because of the nature of the topic, but setting those aside I believe the diffs provided by both users do show a problem with A145GI15I95's behaviour. One of the diffs they link was posted by a sock to Mooeena's talk page, the other they link it's actually A145GI15I95 who takes it personally after Mooeena pointed out possible twitter canvassing. I would support a topic ban, possibly short-term in order to encourage them to be productive in other areas of the project, or at least a short-term interaction ban, for A145GI15I95 based on the provided diffs, if they don't accept to change their behaviour voluntarily. SportingFlyer T·C 04:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Natureium, to answer you:

I didn't try to determine how true all of A145GI15I95's complaints were because the first few I looked for evidence of were either wrong or misleading. Please let me clarify, and let me know if I can clarify further.

You did in fact start a COI noticeboard post claiming that she is trans and another claiming that she is a gender essentialist. My concern is that Mooeena may be letting her personal stance on gender politics interfere with the editing of this delicate topic. I presumed Mooeena to be trans due to the five user-boxes employing gender-essentialist language on her user-page (most of which she's now removed). I've already said there's nothing wrong with being trans or gender essentialist. But detransition is not a gender essentialist topic. Furthermore, detrans folk are politically where trans folk were a decade ago: struggling for recognition to receive neglected legal and medical services. There are many activists online who wrongly see detransitioners as a political threat to trans rights. Mooeena has repeatedly denied the existence of detransitioners and the detrans community on talk pages and edit logs. That is troubling. I attempted to reason with her, but she told me to file a complaint. So I filed the COI (where I wrongly guessed she was trans, I was corrected, I apologized, and I explained my concern is for politics not identity). I was instructed by an admin on COI that my concern is more appropriately NPOVN, so I moved my concern there.

Claiming authors for The Atlantic and The Seattle Stranger to be unreliable—I don't see where this happened. There is discussion on the talk page about the Atlantic/the Stranger, but it's someone else mentioning this, and no one says that the authors are unreliable. Is this discussion elsewhere? The link again is here. The Atlantic author is Jesse Singal; the Stranger author is Katie Herzog. The claim that they are unreliable is indeed written by Mooeena.

How is the article on detransition not a transgender-related topic? To say or imply that detrans folk are a kind of trans folk is like saying trans folk are a kind of gay folk. They're all related categories, but they're separate groups with different challenges and strengths. And there is a documented history of trans activists harassing detrans folk, hence my concern that no such thing should happen here (as it already has from other editors on the detrans talk page).

Doxing is bad. Canvassing for supporters via Twitter is also bad. Thank you for acknowledging the attempt to dox (by a third party, not Mooeena) was bad. Please hear me, though, when I say again that I didn't canvas, as another admin confirmed, and I'd like please not to need to defend myself against this charge every day.

…unless you have diffs to support your list of complaints, you really oughta stop harassing Mooeena. I can answer more questions if you like. But respectfully, I'm not harassing her. And the amount of time I've had to put into writing these defenses, it feels like the reverse.

SportingFlyer, to answer you:

…the points of disagreement aren't obvious because of the nature of the topic… I can answer further questions, if you've any.

One of the diffs they link was posted by a sock to Mooeena's talk page Which diff do you mean? I've employed no sock. If someone else is socking, it's not I. Please, I've had to re-explain this repeatedly. Another user attempted to dox me and accused me of canvassing. Someone else reported it to an admin, who immediately redacted the dox. I thanked them privately and asked advice. They instructed I change my name, and assured this would reduce my problems. However, Mooeena has not let this go, she continues to accuse me of canvassing, and since the name-change she's accusing me of sockery. And now you seem to say also that I appear to be a sock, unless I've misread you. I've only followed my name-change instructions.

…it's actually A145GI15I95 who takes it personally… My impression has been that Mooeena has taken something personally against me. I linked the new Detransition article to a handful of LGBT info-boxes and articles, and Mooeena seemed to follow me and unlink nearly all of them.

Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 05:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Mooeena removed several userboxes recently, but I do not see which ones she removed which were gender-related.
• You claim Mooeena "repeatedly denied the existence of detransitioners and the detrans community on talk pages and edit logs." I have not seen a diff yet which shows this to be the case. Please either provide diffs or apologize.
• Upon investigation, Jesse Singal and Katie Herzog are journalists. From the diff you posted, it makes it seem as if Mooeena has decided to randomly ignore these, but they provided a helpful response here: Talk:Detransition#NPOV.
• You need to stop assuming everyone is accusing you of being a sock whenever a sock is mentioned. There's a pattern forming here. The diff you linked was posted by a sock to Mooeena's talk page, so I have to discredit it.
• Mooeena is within their right to unlink the links per WP:CYCLE. SportingFlyer T·C 08:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• There was a subsection statement and a subsection response. I have added a subsection discussion just below. Because of a possible intent to comment about the said statement and its response. Pldx1 (talk) 11:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
  Follow-up: I have a problem with the first subsection, i.e. "Involved parties". I already know this was a part of an Arbcom filling, but this doesn't make sense here. To be suppressed or to be neutralized by adding User:Mooeena as a party ? Pldx1 (talk) 11:13, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Mooeena removed several userboxes recently, but I do not see which ones she removed which were gender-related. The five gender-politics–related user-boxes here say: "This user identifies as a woman", "This user prefers to be referred to using feminine gender pronouns", "This user identifies as a lesbian", "This user identifies as a girl gamer", "This user identifies as a gaymer". Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with gender essentialism, and I've apologized for possibly sounding as if I suggested that such stance might be unacceptable. My intention was to voice concern that such politics might preclude an NPOV.

You claim Mooeena "repeatedly denied the existence of detransitioners and the detrans community on talk pages and edit logs." I have not seen a diff yet which shows this to be the case. Please either provide diffs or apologize. Mooeena began this conversation with scare quotes and suggestions that the detrans community doesn't exist or doesn't matter. She wrote here: "…seem to argue that 'detransitioner' is a marginalized gender identity…" And here: "This article mentions 'anti-detrans' activists… The 'expert' cited…" Detransitioners are indeed a marginalized community, and this was already sourced in the article. So why suggest otherwise? I brought to her attention here that the use of scare quotes is unnecessary, and that denial of detrans folk would be inappropriate, but she didn't reply. When she used these again, I asked outright here if she intends for these to be scare quotes, but she again didn't reply to this concern. She also wrote here "I am gay and am close to many queer and trans people of all sorts…" Hopefully this was well-intentioned, but it could sound like the old "I'm not racist, I have a black friend". I tried politely to voice this concern, but this seems to've been ignored too.

You need to stop assuming everyone is accusing you of being a sock whenever a sock is mentioned… If the accusations of sockery in the two filings Mooeena has reported against me (here and here) weren't meant to be directed at me, than I've misunderstood. An unknown editor also reported me for supposed sockery amidst all these conversations. I apologize if my tone has become defensive when attempting to work with Mooeena, but she began her NPOV complaint on the article's talk page with words that appeared to show she herself lacks NPOV, and I've since been hit with a doxxing attempt, a smear campaign (including Mooeena refusing to drop the false claims of canvassing), and yet another editor (granted, not Mooeena) equating detransition with gay-conversion therapy, so it's been a rough week here. I'd like to mention that, of the three open reports (here, here, this page we're on now), the tone of the responses have differed greatly ("keep talking, report is premature", crickets, and this discussion now).

Upon investigation, Jesse Singal and Katie Herzog are journalists. From the diff you posted, it makes it seem as if Mooeena has decided to randomly ignore these, but they provided a helpful response here. I'm sorry, but I don't see where she where she addressed this concern. It appears that Mooeena decried these journalists for reporting stories that activists who wrongly see detrans folk as a threat to trans politics attempt to suppress online. And to be clear, I'm not accusing Mooeena of being activist, I'm asking if her politics might outweigh her POV.

The diff you linked was posted by a sock to Mooeena's talk page, so I have to discredit it. Again, please, which diff I linked was posted by a sock?

Mooeena is within their right to unlink the links per WP:CYCLE. Yes, but it could be, as you say, a pattern, which is what I've asked Mooeena to consider.

There was a subsection statement and a subsection response… and Follow-up… I don't understand what the entries above by User:Pldx1 are intended to mean, or if I'm asked to respond.

Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• There are some serious WP:AGF issues in your above post. None of your diffs support Mooeena calling you a sock, and in fact Mooeena herself said she never accused you of being a sock. Mooeena did purge several of her userboxes recently, but she did not purge the major ones relating to gender issues. I don't see any problem with her behaviour, in fact I don't see a single "smear" as you've described. I see a general problem with you assuming she is against your point of view, and your attempts to own the article by accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you from not having a neutral point of view. I apologise you've been doxxed by a third party, but that's beside the point on this very specific issue - Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, and based on the evidence provided above, you are not editing collaboratively in this area. (The diff you provided which was originally posted by a sock was [32].) SportingFlyer T·C 22:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The diff you provided which was originally posted by a sock was [2] Thank you for specifying the link that I mistakenly pasted above to a conversation between Mooeena and a different user. I apologize for this error on my part. The diff I meant to link above to show where Mooeena told me to file is here ("if you believe that I am acting maliciously towards you, feel free to request…").

None of your diffs support Mooeena calling you a sock, and in fact Mooeena herself said she never accused you of being a sock. The two links again are here and here, where she wrote "including one who appears to be a sock". I read that to be claiming or suggesting that the other person is somehow my sock, or that I'm his sock.

I don't see a single "smear" One smear is that she has four times repeated the accusation of canvassing (here, here, here, and here), which was found to be untrue, and three of which were stated after I asked her to stop.

I see a general problem with you assuming she is against your point of view I feel this whole issue has expanded far beyond where it needs to be. Please see that it began simply when Mooeena tagged the article NPOV, and she began its linked conversation using language that itself lacked NPOV (scare quotes, denial of detrans community's marginalization, claims of Tumblr citations, characterizing valid citations she dislikes as sins, calling The Atlantic and Seattle Stranger unreliable, claiming conflation of negative emotions with transition regret). I asked her to recognize her language itself could be read as not NPOV, and she didn't reply. I absolutely understand Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, and I'm grateful for that. I believe I've been able to collaborate with other editors, including those with whom I've disagreed and compromised. Examples include dropping my objection to inclusion of the WPATH/Danker study; and continuing to meet the months-long demand of those supporting the Medref warning, working to find and include more and more medical sources (up from zero now to twelve, though those weren't all my additions). This long week of attacks from multiple editors has stretched my forbearance (and to be sure, I can't blame Mooeena for the other editors' wrongs, I just wish to give context). My concern has been whether Mooeena has an NPOV on this topic, based on her language choices, as stated in my first parenthetical of this paragraph (scare quotes, existence denial, Tumblr, sins, sources, and conflation). Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 02:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Pldx1, I have added myself to the Involved Parties section. I had originaly posted this to the wrong noticeboard, and the formatting is simply an artifact from that.

I've been a bit quiet, but I think these responses speak for themselves. A145GI15I95 is projecting their own NPOV agenda onto other users. I have stuck with the research that is notable and reliably reported on, and this user has become increasingly upset that I don't go along with their editing agenda. I am not an activist, but this user consistently appeals to the community ofdetrans folk [who] have blogged, vlogged, and formed discussion groups online and in-person to support themselves in order to argue that it doesn't matter that the topic is understudied and undercited. They seem to firmly believe that every person who has exhibited any sort of gender fluidity is exactly the same as the users on the detransition subreddits that they belong to, and any removal from those specific people's experiences is some kind of attack. They're trying very hard to evangelize about these subreddits in Wikipedia, a place where that doesn't belong. Threads (like this one) balloon as they try to argue their position into notability. I would support a topic ban from at least Detransition and perhaps other gender-related articles because they have shown that they cannot play well with others on this topic. They've accused me and other users[33] multiple times of claiming "detrans lives don't matter" for holding the statistics on the article to Wikipedia's standards. That's not something to be accused lightly. That shows a deep level of attachment, and I honestly think it would be better for their peace of mind to step away.

As for "smears," the accusation of canvassing was not found to be untrue. Your previous username and a link to a tweet where you canvassed were simply censored for your privacy. That admin did not make a statement on the authenticity of User:Equivamp's claims. In fact, I found two additional instances of you asking people off-wiki who share your point of view to back you up on the talk page. (Archived links available to admins upon request.) That is canvassing. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 05:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

From that post it sounds like if I wanted to know more about detransition, I'd be better off reading the subreddits than the Wikipedia article. I'm not sure what to conclude from that. I do see a bunch of stuff reverted on MEDRS grounds. If that's for medical info ("the recommended dose of hormone X is Y milligrams per pound of body weight") then MEDRS should be adhered to, but if it's about non-medical (e.g. sociological) aspects, then sticking to MEDRS tilts the article to the "medical point of view", which is not neutral (see medicalization). I haven't had the energy to look much further into this (might have more time in a few days). 173.228.123.166 (talk) 07:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Why won't Mooeena answer my concerns (scare quotes, denial of marginalized community, claim of Tumblr citation, characterization of contributions as sins, attempt to discredit reliable sources, and claim of conflation), please? If her statement at the top of this page started instead …or "trans people" as they call them…, we'd question her POV. Instead she admits she wants me banned. I've not called her an activist, I've noted her wish to suppress certain studies that disagree with her politics is shared with anti-detrans activists. WP:PRIVACY instructs I "do not confirm or deny the accuracy of the information" of her now admitted attempt to stalk/oppo/dox me. I can respond privately to admins. A145GI15I95 (talk) 07:34, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I think most of us know that there is such a thing as a trans community. It never would have occurred to me that there was also a detrans community or anti-detrans activists. Mooeena may have used scare quotes based on a similar reaction. Do the activists consider de-transers to be traitors to a cause, or what? If someone detransitions and becomes a transphobe, I can see them taking flak for it; but if they just go back to whatever they were doing before transitioning, why would the trans community care? Are they satisfied if you re-transition after de-transitioning? Do they hate everyone who transitions an even number of times (so they're back in the gender they started with) but like anyone who has transitioned an odd number of times? Does anyone ever actually transition more than twice? I think it's reasonable to ask for some kind of sourcing for claims on such topics. That said, if there's not much mainsteam sourcing I personally don't mind seeing stuff from less prominent outlets that might bother the harder core RS zealots around here. Our readers are adults and we shouldn't worry about warping their minds by presenting diverse viewpoints on stuff like this. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 09:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I hadn't addressed some of your concerns I didn't feel I needed to continually answer for the specifics of a post I made after one read through the article and before joining the discussion (and frankly they came in a very long list) but I'll do so now for the sake of other editors not having to dig through diffs.

• Scare quotes: "detransitioner" and "detrans" are novel terms that I and most other editors had not heard before, so I put them in quotes. The term seems to be the self-identified term for a community, which is obviously fine, but most of the sources I have seen do not contain people self-identifying as detrans, which I believe is an important distinction.
• Denial of marginalized community: I had never heard of detransitioners before, and the article seemed to be about a concept, not a community of people. I am not, of course, saying that that community doesn't exist and that their feelings aren't valid, but that the article doesn't seem like it's about the community.
• {{tq|Claim of Tumblr citation:} The Katie Herzog article references a tumblr blog with around a hundred followers to reference the number of detransitioners, which seemed to me on my first reading of the wiki page to be too small an online community to be notable.
• Characterization of contributions as sins: I apologized for my wording right after you objected to it because I saw that it could be construed as aggressive. I'm not sure what else you want here.
• Attempt to discredit reliable sources: On my first reading of the wiki page, the Katie Herzog and Jesse Singal articles stuck out to me because those authors were well known (Though I had mixed up Katie Herzog with Katie Hopkins at the time) among the transgender community for their anti-trans rhetoric, but it would clearly be hypocritical of me to remove them because I disagree with the authors' politics. I haven't, because on the many read-throughs I've done since two weeks ago, I realized that those are really the two best news sources there are on the topic.
• Claim of conflation: See discussion here. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 17:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm also not doxxing you. I have given no identifying details that may identify you off-wiki or irl, just noted a fact for the benefit of qualified admins who know how to confirm claims while protecting your privacy. I don't want anybody to harass you off-wiki. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 17:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• Let us try to do our own home work. First of all, page Detransition was build by 480 [Edits], among them 196 edits ($\approx 40.000$ bytes) by [A145GI15I95] and 6 edits ($\approx -9.000$ bytes) by [Mooeena]. Among the last 6, the first two (2019-03-02) are "POV tag", the other four are suppressing citations "en masse", without detailed discussion. Saying source contains a slur, isn't noteworthy, and doesn't contribute to the article when removing [seven references], is not an honest way of proceeding. Each of them contributes, i.e. is clearly about to the topic of the article, while "contains a slur" are only weasel words: which reference among the seven contains which alleged slur ? Moreover, the question is not if you like or not what the references are saying, the question to discuss is sources or not sources, i.e. should we repeat what the references are saying with our own voice, or only quote the reference as what was said by such and such and maybe quote another reference saying otherwise ? Pldx1 (talk) 10:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  
  This user is an Angel.
  This user is a cat.
    About infoboxen. User: Mooeena uses these two infoboxen. This amounts to assert that it exists cats that are also angels. Such a strong philosophical assertion should have been backed by strong sources, but I don't see them. When asking my own cat for a second opinion, then undisclosed_possessive_pronoun_for_my_own_cat answer was: any angel would have guessed that using The biggest sins [of A145GI15I95] in a complaint is boomerang-prone, while any cat would have known that using his pet project to describe an article about gender identification is only horrible and disheartening. Pldx1 (talk) 10:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • You have a good point. I have tried to keep out of the article space until the BRD cycle is concluded. I intend for the discussion to come to a consensus before I move in and make changes on the article.
  • I made an honest mistake in that I only saw one added reference, which I hope you can see why I found it problematic. Said adding user was a sock who immediately proceeded to post slurs against multiple groups on my talk page, so I didn't consider the rest of the edit in good faith once I had noticed my mistake. If some of the other sources that he added would actually contribute the article, I have no problem with them being added back.
  • It's true that the phrase The biggest sins is aggressive. I recognize that, and I apologized for my wording right after I said it, and here I'll apologize again.
  • I would contest that {tq|pet project} is disheartening, but I will apologize for that too. I consider creating articles for underrepresented woman firsts my pet project. That doesn't invalidate the subject, but it also doesn't mean that I get upset when other people make suggestions. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 17:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
    • Dear User:173.228.123.166 (how to ping?),
    • It never would have occurred to me that there was also a detrans community… I grant that, yes. My concern is the combination of words (noted parenthetically above) that sound like rhetoric used by anti activists (such as Julia Serano).
    • Do the activists consider de-transers to be traitors to a cause… Yes. This is noted and sourced in the article under the "Cultural and political impact" section, first paragraph, last sentence, "detransitioners express experiences of harassment from activists who view detransition as a political threat to trans rights" (four citations there).
    • Dear User:Pldx1,
    • [The] page Detransition was build by 480 Edits, among them 196 edits… I apologize for submitting small edits across multiple successive commits. Mooeena criticized this on the talk page, I apologized, explained I'm new to the system, and I then took to submitting combined work instead.
    • Dear User:Mooeena,
    • I have tried to keep out of the article space until the BRD cycle is concluded. Thank you for this. I, too, have stepped back a bit, and I'm glad to see the pool of contributions has grown over the last few days. And I recently submitted RfC in the hopes of welcoming even more fresh voices.
    • It's true that the phrase 'The biggest sins' is aggressive. I recognize that, and I apologized… Your linked diff apologized for [coming] on a little clinically, which sounds different, but I'm encouraged to see your clear acknowledgment here, and I very much thank you for this good-faith sentiment. Apology accepted.
    • I would contest that 'pet project' is disheartening, but I will apologize for that too… Thank you for apologizing for this too.
    • The term [detransitioner and detrans] seems to be the self-identified term… These terms are used by journalists in the article's sources.
    • …the article seemed to be about a concept, not a community of people. The article is about the concept and the community, as evidenced by its sections.
    • I am not, of course, saying that that community doesn't exist… Thank you for making this clear.
    • The Katie Herzog article references a tumblr blog… Yes, and nothing from that portion of her article is sourced in our article.
    • …on the many read-throughs I've done since two weeks ago, I realized that those are really the two best news sources there are on the topic. Thank you very much for saying this.
    • Claim of conflation: See discussion here. That discussion is regarding desistance, not negative emotions or trans regret.
    • I'm also not doxxing you…just noted a fact I don't know what you're doing or what the correct term would be, but it seems like stalking or oppo research or doxxing, not simply not[ing] a fact.
    • Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 19:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• Who's on first? EEng 22:47, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• A145GI15I95 and Mooeena, are things reasonably peaceful between the two of you now? If yes, I'm glad it worked out and maybe someone can close this thread. Otherwise can you more clearly identify the remaining points of disagreement where you think you need outside help? Thanks. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 23:16, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • With all due respect, I didn't come here in order to give a point-by-point apology. Now that they see (I hope) that other editors are not doing it out of malice, I would like User:A145GI15I95 to defer to consensus made by other users in the following discussions at Talk:Detransition or else be temporarily topic banned:
    • Talk:Detransition/Archive_1#What_WPATH_didn't_say
    • Talk:Detransition/Archive_1#Coleman_statement
    • Talk:Detransition#Detransition_vs_transgender_desistance
    • As well as reducing language such as Detransitioners (persons who detransition) have similarly experienced controversy and struggle. in the lede which references relatively non-notable anti-detrans activism. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 02:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

User Nelatti

User Nelatti (talk · contribs)has been first informed, then warned and finally blocked — three times — for insisting on adding unsourced and interpretive content. The user is just as difficult to work with in the Commons — I know it is separate project, but it bears witness on the editor's attitude of not playing by the rules. My gratitude to the admin who has patiently monitored this case so far. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:21, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• To add some meat on the bones of this ANI report, Nelatti has added tons of original research at List of South African slang words, for instance. [34][35][36][37] Though we don't censor, I think the latter example is tonally questionable: "...a polite way to say you need to shit as soon as possible." The bulk of this user's contributions seem to be editorial in nature, pulled from his own experience or knowledge[38][39][40] rather than sourced material. Efforts to convince him to add references have not been successful. See this discussion from 2017. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Problem with adding information to article

I wanted to add information concerning book written by Barbara Engelking and Jan Grabowski called "Dalej jest noc. Losy Żydów w wybranych powiatach okupowanej Polski". Recently Piotr Gontarczyk (professional historian) gave interviews with Polish Press Agency and weekly magazine "Sieci" in which he pointed out some mistakes that the authors made and addressed exact evidence to backup his arguments. One of the major pointed mistake is blaming Blue Police (which was not allowed to ghetto) for the crimes done by Jewish police inside Jewish ghetto in Bochnia (this case is well documented in files from Samuel Frish's criminal case).

Opinion of Gontarczyk was highly publicized in Polish media including the biggest TV channels, newspapers, radio, Internet.

The first time I added that information (to the articles about Barbara Engelking and Jan Grabowski) it was removed and I was told that the source was not good enough in some quite unusual manner of two tables with exclamation mark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bluffer8

Then I changed the source to the following ones:

https://afaae.com/poland/yes-ladies-and-gentlemen-this-is-a-new-school-but-not-the-research-but-the-deception-of-the-holocaust/

https://www.polskieradio.pl/321/1222/Artykul/2275685,Piotr-Gontarczyk-zarzuca-publikacji-Centrum-Badan-nad-Zaglada-Zydow-naukowa-mistyfikacje

and my update was removed again. I asked the editor Icewhiz (talk) about what was wrong and got the answer: "Poor source, badly written, and a from a source with a rather extreme POV".

Link to the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Icewhiz#Controversies

In the same discussion I gave him many alternative sources from Polish TV, radio, Internet, newspapers and German media (newspaper Dziennik Polska-Europa-Świat owned by Axel Springer SE), and asked for opinion. At this point to the discussion joined the editor Volunteer Marek (talk), they had some vivid conversation and here are the arguments that Icewhiz gave:

- Polish government was considering implementing law which would that supposed to end up "Polish death camp" controversy,

- The law was only a project and was no implemented, but for Icewhiz that case it is good enough to say that Poland tries to impose, what he calls, "Holocaust law",

- Because of this nonexistent "Holocaust law" Polish sources "are unreliable on the topic of Holocaust history".

- The situation in Poland is similar to the situation in Russia - "state control or repression" and no free speech basically.

And in the last section Icewhiz said:

- Source of German owned newspaper Dziennik are also not allowed because: "All these sources, even those critical of PiS, fall under reach of the >>Holocaust law<<"

Link to the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Icewhiz#Controversies

Maybe these arguments would make sence if Poland was totalitarian regime without freedom of speach and trying to impose their own false propaganda, and I was trying to add this lying propaganda into Wikipedia's article. But all I want to add is just well documented and backup criticism of a book done by a professional historian documented by dozen of sources.

It feels like Icewhiz's opinion is a pure form of antipolonism and censorship based on offensive, false and biased arguments that are hard to understand (vide fantasies about made up "Holocaust law" and ban on Polish sources based on subjective and offensive opinions). Apart from that there are plenty of sources based on Polish newspaper in the Wikipedia and they are also allowed in the article I wanted to update - here are examples from the article about Jan Grabowski:

https://www.rp.pl/Konflikt-Polska-Izrael/180229915-Polski-historyk-Jan-Grabowski-ostrzega-Izrael-przed-dialogiem-z-Polska.html

https://www.biznesistyl.pl/kultura/oblicza-kultury/5829_.html

"Ale Historia: Prof. Jan Grabowski: Pomagaliśmy Niemcom zabijać Żydów", Gazeta Wyborcza, 17 March 2018

This whole case is example of censorship based on biases and wrong information - some updates of Wikipedia's articles are banned because of made up reasons. Please help me to add to Wikipedia the information about the arguments Piotr Gontarczyk (professional historian) used to point out mistakes from the book.

Bluffer8 (talk) 14:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

The place to have this discussion is at the article talk page or RSN. Poland's "Holocaust Law" curtailed free speech in Polish media on the Holocaust (see article in Index on Censorship and very wide coverage on this). Adding Gontarczyk's opinions from a radio appearance to a BLP is more than questionable given that:

"Gontarczyk's work represents a highly rationalized version of the ethno-nationalist approach, legitimizing anti-Jewish violence as national self defense, based on the perception of Jews not as a group included in the Polish nation but as an "alien and harmful nation""

per academic source Finally I will note that most of Bluffer8's 52 edits to Wikipedia revolve around Gontarczyk raising some serious questions.Icewhiz (talk) 15:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz words that "Finally I will note that most of Bluffer8's 52 edits to Wikipedia revolve around Gontarczyk raising some serious questions" are clearly a manipulation. I have not done even one successful edit concerning Gontarczyk - all my Gontarczyk related edits have been deleted and one cannot count discussion about that deletions as "edits to Wikipedia revolve around Gontarczyk".

What I would like to add to Wikipedia are concrete arguments of professional historian, based on well documented files from Samuel Frish's criminal case. Contrary to what Icewhiz says Poland is not a regime and there is freedom of speech in Poland - the best proof of that is that the book (we are talking about) has been published in Poland (and as far as I know - in Poland only).

One can find in Internet any source that fits into its thesis that slams any person or any country (in example Gontarczyk, Poland, etc.). But this cannot undermine that Piotr Gontarczyk is well known, respected, professional historian employed in history research institute and his arguments are backed up by solid evidence.

Bluffer8 (talk) 19:20, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Edits to 3 articles adding Gontarczyk, reverted by a number of users, and discussions of said edits (for some odd reason on my talk page, and not on BLP/n or the article's talk). This prior edit to Jedwabne pogrom is instructive - adding a paragraph denying (the mainstream academic view in all countries) Polish responsibility for the massacre and burning of Jews in a barn - sourced to a Polish-Canadian YouTube channel.Icewhiz (talk) 19:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I do not know what is wrong with adding testimony of living witness of Jedwabne pogrom (prior edit) unless one has problem with information that do not fit into his particular point of view - but this is not how Wikipedia should work.

In the link to Jedwabne pogrom that Icewhiz gave (prior edit) there is not a single word about Piotr Gontarczyk. Please note that Icewhiz manipulates again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluffer8 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

If one submits the following sentence in Google or Duckduckgo search engine:

"piotr gontarczyk" "piotra gontarczyka" site:wikipedia.org

then it is clear that there are plenty of references to Piotr Gontarczyk and his work within Wikipedia and much, much more in other sites. If Piotr Gontarczyk is so evil, as Icewhiz says, then why is he referred so many times.

Bluffer8 (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Considering these [41] [42] [43] appear to be the diffs that have started this, and considering the text appears to be the same, this raises large WP:BLP and WP:NPOV issues. Reliable sourcing aside, the information does not even appear specifically related to any of the articles, apart from the fact they seem to have the opposite point of view. SportingFlyer T·C 08:59, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Could you please explain me what exactly WP:BLP and WP:NPOV issues does it raise? I could change the form of the article update.

This information is not just the opposite point of view - it proves serious mistakes found in the book. This information is related to the articles - it shows the controversies that authors/book raises and there are plenty of similar cases in Wikipedia (articles about authors) with proper sections which address controversies in the way I would like to do it - here are examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Dale#Controversy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Frey#Controversy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pearl#Controversy_over_To_Train_Up_a_Child

Bluffer8 (talk) 19:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• For instance, on the Grabowski article, the controversy from Gontarczyk has already been given due weight in the diff of the article you linked under the book's heading. Splitting it out into a separate section overstates the level of the controversy. Also, the fact you're saying it "proves serious mistakes found in the book" is not a neutrao position to be taking for these edits. Removing the topic completely from the analysis, a historian published a book and received criticism from another historian in regards to the book. That's all this needs to be, especially given the contentious nature of the topic, and this has been already adequately represented in that article. SportingFlyer T·C 22:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I cannot see exactly where can you see "the controversy from Gontarczyk" in the article about Grabowski - he is not mentioned there even single time (I think he was mentioned but someone "updated" the article). Could you please point it directly? How can you say that this topic "has been already adequately represented in that article" if Gontarczyk arguments are not even mentioned.

If you look at the article into section "Dalej jest noc":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Grabowski_%28historian%29#Dalej_jest_noc

then you will find positive and subjective opinion/flattery about the book from historian Jacek Chrobaczyński. I completely cannot understand why I am banned from adding (into the same section or the new one) scientifically based criticism of the book, done by professional historian? And yes - according to Gontarczyk's word he found some serious mistakes, which are well documented and well described. In Wikipedia it is common practice to add criticism concerning books/authors - I gave examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Dale#Controversy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Frey#Controversy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pearl#Controversy_over_To_Train_Up_a_Child

If the source is right (it does not come from totalitarian regime where there is no free speech), if the author is right (he is a professional historian employed in well known history research institute) and the topic has not been described yet then what is the problem?

I hope we will reach the compromise here - which could be adding the Gontarczyk's opinion into "Dalej jest noc" section of the article about Jan Grabowski and creating "Controversy" section for the article about Barbara Engelking.

Bluffer8 (talk) 00:37, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I just noticed Dalej jest noc has its own article where Gontarczyk's opinion appears. The book on Grabowski's main page links to Dalej jest noc, and has a sentence or two about the criticism it received. I would suggest not adding the Gostarczyk opinion back to any of the pages and instead focusing on Dalej jest noc, though I think what's currently on that page is good enough. In any case, this seems to be more of a content dispute than anything actionable at ANI. SportingFlyer T·C 01:52, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

For me it looks like you are trying to stop adding of important Gontarczyk criticism of the book (and the fact that the book has been criticized) - because some other, older Gontarczyk's opinions are outside Wikipedia, in the book (could you please show me where exactly have you found it?). And at the same time you do not even allow to mention (in the article) that the book has been criticized in mass media and to inform why. I am not satisfied with that answer and I do not agree with this approach - I gave enough examples of the book criticism (in Wikipedia's articles) to see that double standards and censorship are applied here.

It looks like a group of editors usurp and owned the article, and disagrees on any changes because it ruins the point of view they try to convey through the article. One can see that to stop the article updates, Wikipedia users are flooded with arguments (sometime absurd - vide regime in Poland or "ethno-nationalist" Gontarczyk) and that every bigger update to certain articles are immediately removed by the same editors.

It this is your final opinion, then I will proceed further with my doubts concerning the article update. Thank you for your time.

Bluffer8 (talk) 16:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have no interest in this topic at all but am trying to balance concerns with WP:UNDUE as neutrally as I possibly can. The current write up here clearly shows there has been criticism of the book. [44] Adding more specific criticism would violate WP:UNDUE. The book also has its own Wikipedia article here Dalej jest noc in which Gontarczyk's criticism appears. I haven't looked at anything outside of Wikipedia, but I do not see any problem with "double standards" or "censorship." I do have a problem with giving the criticism undue weight. SportingFlyer T·C 01:42, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Canadian IP socks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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50.115.180.226 is another Canadian IP sock that is doing disruptive editing. There has been quite a few of these. Last night, I needed my talk page protected. It might be time to put Mark Bourrie under page protection. These socks have targeted my talk page and that entry in an outing campaign. I suspect it's one obsessed person. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 15:50, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:NOTHERE for User:Stevenhksar

• PCCW (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Hong Kong Telecom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• PCCW Mobile (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• CSL Mobile (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Stevenhksar (talk · contribs)

There was an ongoing RfC for the disputed edit in Talk:PCCW, but he just not able to understand English and policy. Admin please have a look on his blanking of the section of the article. Matthew hk (talk) 17:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

This looks like a WP:PAID relationship with the subject of the article:[45]. That diff is not really good communication either: bad english and shouting when not absolutely necessary.Lurking shadow (talk) 17:33, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

There is a longer communications in User talk:Stevenhksar, which he blanked it all, after receiving ANI notice. I can use Cantonese/Chinese to communicate with him, but it is no point since this is English wikipedia. He also preformed bold merge of PCCW Mobile and CSL Mobile, but since he blanked that section of his user talk, i assumed he read that section and "understand" it should follow WP:merge. But for how hard i communicate, he still did not provide valid reason of cut a section of the article to another, or just blank it. It is not the matter which direct parent company that business division Cascade (did it ever equal to PCCW Engineering) was, it was the matter of keeping a brief section for the second-tier subsidiary of a company PCCW or not. He want to c&p to intermediate holding company Hong Kong Telecom, i disagree, i started WP:RfC for him, telling him internal email cannot be used in wikipedia as a reference, and he still not able to understand it and do his stuff again and again. Matthew hk (talk) 17:40, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

As a note. After this ANI was opening, he still posting internal email as well as section blanking. He clearly unable to understand. Matthew hk on public computer (talk) 08:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The PCCW article has been fully protected so that Stevenhksar and others can take the issues and the dispute to the article's talk page and sort them out. I definitely agree that the user has issues with understanding what reliable sources are, as well as in areas involving his repeated removal of content. They appear to me to be issues that stem both from inexperience along with trying to publish the content and venturing into the threshold of edit warring and without listening to feedback - which (as we've seen many times before) is a combination of issues that cause a lot of disruption if repeated. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:11, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The article was suffered from suspected paid editing for so long. Many Hong Kong articles are deserted after the initial creator took wiki break or just retired. Many articles are with very serious problem of failed verification or in another spectrum, a relic of direct copying from source as copyvio. Some of the "paid editing" in PCCW may in fact voluntarily done by employee, but edits such as just c&p whole paragraph from the annual report of the company, or trim the article under the agenda of company promotional scheme, are unacceptable (at least, discuss in talk page after the group made a Matryoshka structure of companies which Pacific Century Group, PCCW, HKT Limited and subsidiaries PCCW-HKT, "Hong Kong Telecommunications (HKT) Limited" are in fact the same group as different tier). There was yet another request from teahouse to move Console Connect to Console Connect by PCCW Global due to unfamiliar to policy by the paid editors. For Stevenhksar in specific, moving the article title of Gateway Communications to PCCW Global just due to Gateway was acquired by PCCW Global, is also unacceptable. To sum up, i really have no idea on dealing such paid editing as they are more familiar with internal document (but lack of sense of WP:V) and what the company want to promote (but certainly WP:COI edit are never able to WP:NPOV), which i am not sure lock down the article and then with a deserted RfC are the right move. Or it will became a battle ground to me when i tried to verify statements and add back citation to those so many deserted Hong Kong articles. Matthew hk (talk) 11:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Shakil9600

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Shakil9600 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Bajpara High School (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Draft:Bajpara High School (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The concern I have regarding this user is that they are consistently removing the R2 speedy deletion tag on the mainspace version of the page (1st page link) after I had moved the page to draftspace (2nd page link). I have sent them messages asking them to be patient with the deletion of the mainspace article and edit the draftspace version instead, however they have ignored my pleas and continued working on the page in mainspace without even acknowledging the version in draftspace (with the exception of the single submission without further improvement). I was originally going to send the page to AfD, but decided against it favoring a redirect per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. Obviously, this attempt failed. I just want to see to it that this user acknowledges that their work is still present in the draftspace and edit that version instead. Jalen D. Folf (talk) 19:43, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

User is clearly unsure how Wikipedia works. They want the page deleted yet they continue to remove the deletion templates. I left a message on their talk page telling them what was going on, because they left messages on the talk page on the redirect's talk page. I don't think they are acting maliciously.--Breawycker (talk to me!) 20:00, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) not sure it is log out edit or not, 101.206.168.129 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) just restart the article from the redirect, and blanking Draft:Bajpara High School, effectively cut and paste move to revert the drafting (see Wikipedia:Drafts#During new page review, it is legit to do so). Matthew hk (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

BTW it looks like logout edit or meat sock, since the ip also edited in Uthali Union, an article created by Shakil9600. As a separate issue, Afd had started at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bajpara High School. Just there is no problem of blanking again. Matthew hk (talk) 21:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@Matthew hk: Thank you for making the AfD. Should have done that myself. I'm surprised I haven't heard back from them about them about the whole speedy deletion thing. Wasn't trying to imply what the IP was doing was wrong was just trying to ask the user if that was them. Probably shouldn't have used that template.Breawycker (talk to me!) 21:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:NOTHERE editing by User:Ted hamiltun

Ted hamiltun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Ted hamiltun made some very sporadic edits since the account got created in 2017, but his activities suddenly intensified in March 2019.

• Using the ethnicity/race card when dealing with other users ("removed by an Iranian user" : [46] "source being reverted by whose appear to be from Persian Editors community" [47]).

• Constantly WP:FORUM text on talk pages (often along with WP:PA comments), deliberately misintepreting sources and Persistently edit-warring ( blocked few days ago : [48]), here are some examples : [49], [50], [51], [52]

Looking at the compelling evidence, it seems this user is only here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by being WP:TENDENTIOUS on every level. Thus, we can conclude that he/she is WP:NOTHERE to build this encyclopedia. I report him here since this has been suggested by an admin on AN3 : [53].---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The reported user has battleground mentality and aggressive behavior. He's unable to participate in a proper way. See how he replied to my comment.[54] Also please see this archived 3RR report for more details about him and comments by other editors; @HistoryofIran, Kansas Bear, and Qahramani44:. --Wario-Man (talk) 07:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

He is indeed quite fond of fabricating sources to suit his pov-pushing [55] [56] Not to mention he has a PHD in spamming talk pages with his rants (I can't be bothered to show 8 links for this one, just look at his every edit basically). --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Since I'm dragged into this now, may as well add another point too that hasn't yet been stated. Besides his ethnicity-baiting posts, falsifying sources/pushing non-RS sources, and edit-warring, he also seems to have blatantly ban-evaded here [57], with this new IP that only posted once, in the same page that he was edit-warring in before, immediately after he was banned for edit-warring. Qahramani44 (talk) 01:43, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Users user:Wikaviani User:Qahramani44, User:Wario-Man User:HistoryofIran

Note: Ted Hamiltun opened this new thread. Since it is the same issue, I am merging it here to centralize consensus building. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 11:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Hello dear Wiki Adminstration these editors are from what I called earlier the Iranian editors community they work as a disinformation team taking advantage of wiki rules to push their Ideas in different articles and boycott any other source of Information which contradict their views

If you have noticed they're all take part in attacking and reporting Individuals that they consider a chalenge to their views, accusing him with all sort of accusation , aggressive, mentally ill, fabricating sources, racist, nationalist, having Agendas and etc....

This all started when I asked them to remove a phrase that Is not in cited source which meant to eliminate the presence of a whole population of a province a phrase which spread hatred, User:Wario-Man with aid of User:HistoryofIran changing role continued reverting my ask for providing a sourc to that phrase or just remove it, I even express my concern about the issue with them In talk page [58] but no one responded, due to this Ignoring and aggresive behaviour my last attempt to solve the problem was to write for other editors to take part in this discussion and put an end to this illegal behaviours [59] which User:HistoryofIran interpret as ranting against "Persian editors", and reported me, I got Blocked 48 hours for  reverting my legal request to remove a racist phrase which is not in the cited source after I wrote for you and other editors "finally" User:Wario-Man removed that phrase, with so much anger you can see they have highly an Anti-Semitism view to the topics that they engage [60]

Now they changing, The other member of the team user:Wikaviani is reporting me  with his team mates, and again they are all came back accusing me with all kind of accusations Just to eliminate me once and for all and make It easy for themselves to apply their Ideas with out any question

I ask you to take a carefull look at these unjust acts and misusing of Wiki environment

Thank you  Ted hamiltun (talk) 10:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Ted hamiltun: What ideas do you believe those editors are unfairly pushing? Can you provide more diffs? Bold claims require appropriate evidence. My advice to you: instead of leveling personal attacks on editors like Wario-Man, or reporting those who reported you, you should be examining your own conduct and responding to the valid concerns brought up about you at this noticeboard. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 11:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

taking advantage of wiki rules Boy I sure hate it when folks follow the rules around here... Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 11:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Comment. WP:SHOT and abusing report system. This is 2nd time this user shoots himself in the foot. See how he tried to delete and manipulate another editor's report on 3RR noticeboard.12 --Wario-Man (talk) 11:40, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Comment "these editors are from what I called earlier the Iranian editors community they work as a disinformation team" just another example of Ted hamiltun's WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and ranting toward a group of editors.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:18, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: He's WP:NOTHERE and WP:BATTLEGROUND case. Look at this diff. He deleted and manipulated this report just like what he did on 3RR noticeboard. Clearly he has no idea what WP is and uses it like a forum. --Wario-Man (talk) 04:29, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Ted hamiltun just posted this on my talk page. I think the real highlight is this personal attack: It's so simple these guys all are Iranian with racist agenda attack individuals. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 07:50, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Definitely a big WP:BATTLEGROUND problem here. For instance, reporting the users who reported them, repeatedly using personal attacks about race and ethnicity, and POV pushing. At any rate, I think there is also a serious WP:CIR issue. I don't use CIR lightly, but I think that this is such a case. While I understand that English is not everyone's first language, this is the English Wikipedia. CIR presumes that users have the ability to read and write English well enough to avoid introducing incomprehensible text into articles and to communicate effectively as well as the ability to communicate with other editors and abide by consensus. Ted's talk page messages are cryptic to the point of unreadable, their edits to Persian Gulf and the subsequent talk page conversations show that they are unable to effectively communicate, are unwilling to follow sources, and can't be bothered by consensus. Combined with their generally uncivil handling of this ANI, I think Ted is WP:NOTHERE and needs a sharp tap of the sysop mop. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 08:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, i forgot to mention his WP:CIR issues (inability to speak and comprehend English properly). Thanks.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:37, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Mountain157

Mountain157 (talk · contribs) is pushing their POV onto the article on Tartary, attempting to pass a fringe theory that claims Tartary to have been a historical country whose existence was suppressed after its demise as undisputed fact wrong section, please see here instead. In Talk:Tartary they have constantly levelled personal attacks against me, accusing me of violating various Wikipedia policies when I attempted to revert the article to a Neutral POV in an attempt to discredit me even after an administrator ruled that "many of Mountain157's accusations are unsupported and constitute personal attacks" above. (Though I have previously opened a content dispute, I believe it to no longer applies and have requested it be closed) Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 00:50, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

This user did not try to revert to a Neutral POV. He removed various sources, and maps that had to do with Tartary possibly being a country[[61]] back to a version that had no sources at all. I am not pushing any "fringe theory" despite this user claiming that I do. That itself actually constitutes a personal attack because WP:FRINGENOT says that accusing others of Fringe theories is often cited in discussions and edit summaries to demonized viewpoints which contradict their own, for which this user has exhibited on multiple occasions such as comparing the existence of Tartary to "Glester John"[[62]] and claiming the sources I added were "outdated by centuries".I cited a CIA document [[63]] that talks about the re-writing of Tatar history by the Soviet Union, so I am pretty sure this is a reliable source. [[64]]. Mountain157 (talk) 01:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It looks like this user has opened up another another notice against me so I am moving this here[[65]]. Mountain157 (talk) 01:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Mountain157: The main source I see you used was this book, published before 1832. Its no wonder that Midnight-Blue766 reverted the edits based on it. I think part of the problem here is that the source is using outdated terminology. It refers to Tamerlane as emperor of the Tartars, when he was in fact emperor of the Timurid Empire. Newer, more reliable sources are needed. Even if the CIA source claims that the Soviets rewrote history, the Soviet empire has been dead for decades. Should Tartary be a real place, then modern scholarship should be able to confirm that fact. This boils down to a content dispute, one which should be handled in a civil manner, using reliable sources. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 03:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: Thank you for your response. Here are all the sources that I did use to base my argument that Tartary was a country aside from the document above,[[66]],[[67]],[[68]],[[69]],[[70]],[[71]].

Thanks for sharing those. Again the issue here is that these sources are centuries old. We need modern scholarship that confirms the existence of Tartary as a country, and not just a region of the world. For instance, the title of one source, writing in the 1650s, refers to a Tartar conquest of China. But other sources hold that at that time China was conquered by the Manchu in the Manchu conquest of China. I believe that the word Tartar in these conquests has wide application to any number of central Asian peoples, such as the Manchu, the Mongols, the Timurids and the like. The Tartar disambig page says that a Tartar is Someone from Tartary, the historical central Asian landmass populated by Turks, Mongols, Manchus and others. There remains no reason to believe that Tartary was an organized nation-state with an established Tartar government. I think it boils down to four-century old Europeans not knowing the difference between eastern peoples and labeling them all "Tartars" and ascribing the deeds of many nations to one. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 12:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I understand your concerns, but why then as recently as 1865 is Tartary listed as a country and having a a flag?Mountain157 (talk) 12:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Read this source, which seems to eloquently cover the European misconception of the supposed country. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:03, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Midnight-Blue766: Can you provide diffs of the personal attacks by Mountain157, aside from the content of the previous ANI involving yourself and M157? Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 03:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I have already provided the diffs to Talk:Tartary; the majority of the statements I construe as personal attacks should still be up there. My own talk page also has some of his vandalism accusations. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 19:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Our article Tartary is in terrible shape and is a perfect opportunity for a competent editor who understands Central Asian history to do some good work. A poorly refererenced article on an obscure topic is fertile ground for fringe editing. There is a serious underlying problem because this topic is a subset of a fringe disinformation theory called New Chronology (Fomenko) which is one of the most sweeping and disruptive and bizarre conspiracy theories of the last 50 years. Wikipedia editors simply cannot allow this delusion to infect our articles, although we must describe the theory itself in neutral terms. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

A quick googling reveals that Tartary is the subject of a great deal of kooky fringe theories (such as the Russians and CIA conspired to hide its existence, or it was a perfect civilization built using the Ark of the Covenant). Its resurgence does appear to be concurrent with New Chronology, (as evidenced by the fact that Vladimir Putin gifted a supposed map of Tartary to Tatarstan in 2017 [72] (note that this article concludes that Tartary may have been just a misinterpretation of the Golden Horde). This is an article that needs some attention for sure, lest folks push some wild POV. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Would just like to point out how convenient it is for an account after a month of inactivity to wake up with this gem and then for the WP:BOOMERANGed user to blank everything except that message. And, as it turns out Thegman81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has strongly overlapping topic areas. Does anyone else hear quacking?Thunderchunder (talk) 07:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring from User:Alex95-Ukraine

User:Alex95-Ukraine has made countless edits to 2019 Australian Grand Prix adding flagicons to tables (an example seen here, and here are 2 example) citing a consensus when in fact there was a consensus made a few days ago on the talk page for the opposite, (s)he has been informed of this several times but still refuses to wait for the outcome of the new discussion he has started on the talk page. On top of this he has also accused me of WP:SOCK (here) without any evidence. SSSB (talk) 11:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The consensus was only about adding entry list to the article which I dont mind. There wasnt any consensus about removing flags from the tables and also at least 4 users are against removing (while only 2 want to remove them) but still you decided to change the consensual version of the article to the version which you want. Alex (talk) 12:08, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

If you took the time to read the discussion fully you would know that the main reason the entry table was added was to remove the need for 2-3 flagicons per driver, therefore there was a consensus, as for the discussion it currently stands at 2 v 2, (Alex95-Ukraine, EchoFourFour v me and Mclarenfan17, those are the only people who have contributed to the new discussion you started, there is no consensus for the reintroduction for flagicons in results tables. SSSB (talk) 12:13, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Why are you continuing to ignore opinion of other people like Admanny who also written in that talk page that he thinks that article should be kept like in previous years? Also 2-3 flagicons per driver is not 15 like it the wrc article. There is no reason to remove them. Alex (talk) 12:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring I just didn't see as it was a different thread, but 3v2 after a few hours still isn't enough to declare a consensus, in response to your other comments, they should not be discussed here but on the talk page. SSSB (talk) 12:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Whereas the behavior of both Alex95-Ukraine (not constructive participation at the talk page) and SSSB (warnings of vandalism about behavior which is clearly not vandalism) is not exactly constructive, I think the problem can possibly only be solved by starting an RFC which would include other similar pages as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:41, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Call me a cynic, but overnight the talk page has flooded with responses from editors supporting the reinclusion of flags in all tables and all based on the same argument. Now I have been around a long time—I used to edit as Prisonermonkeys—and I have never seen any of those editors before. One has never edited a Fornula 1 article for anything more than spelling, one has been inactive for a year (save for a single edit in September) and one has only ever contributed to the discussion on that page. It feels a little suspicious. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, of course, I have nothing to do and have 10 accounts. That what you wanted to say, right? Alex (talk) 04:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Not at all. It feels more like canvassing to me. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 09:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I do not think we can deal with this here, at least not until the canvassing accusation has been proven. A RfC, however, will solve the issue for a long time.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think an RfC is necessary, there is a clear consensus in favour of keeping flagicons and until these canvassing can be proved we will simply have to follow it. SSSB (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@Ymblanter — I'm not accusing anyone, just voicing suspicions that something is amiss. When four editors (and one IP) with little to no history of editing Formula 1 or motorsport pages (I think they had two edits between them) all descend on the same talk page within hours of one another, it gets my attention. It could be that this is just the first race of the year and so there is an upswing of new editors, but when that has happened in the past, those new editors work on a much wider range of related articles. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 22:16, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Don't think there was canvassing here. If there was, it would be easy to detect that in their contributions. I think there is just a clear comment interest, namely Australia. The subject is the Australian Grand Prix and it seems some user just came by to edit the article on their home Grand Prix. A number of them edit frequently on Australian motorsports subjects. Now, you should not be voicing concerns over other users' contributions as your recent contributions don't demonstrate exemplary behavior either. In the past 60 or so hours you made one, two, three, four, [73], six reverts on that article regarding the flags. The first four of them where a clear WP:3RR violation. You have been blocked many for that behavior when you were still known as Prisonermonkeys. I don't know why you weren't blocked for it this time. It appears that in all those years you still haven't learned.Tvx1 00:52, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

And you have been lobbying for me to be blocked at every opportunity. You have a history of misrepresenting things to the point where admins were ignoring your reports. I know that at least one admin felt that you were using ANI and 3RR to settle personal scores. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 01:28, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Nope that was you with that sentiment. The admin gave you a boomerang. You once again display one of your common tactics by side-tracking through focussing on someone else's behavior to try and distract from your own. The facts are the facts though and the evidence in the contributions for this article is clear. Also note that this is the second time in a short period that you ended up at WP:ANI and in neither case did it involve me. And that "every opportunity" claim is a joke. I think the last time I reported you for anything must have been over a year ago.Tvx1 02:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

"Also note that this is the second time in a short period that you ended up at WP:ANI and in neither case did it involve me."

And we have misrepresentation. First of all, I was the subject of the first ANI (which went nowhere), while I was referenced in this ANI as someone who could attest to the initial complaint. Your comments about "ending up at ANI" imply that I was the subject of both reports, which is not true.

Secondly, you have been involved in both ANIs. In the first instance, you took it upon yourself to lobby for the admins to take action when none did. I don't see how you can claim that neither ANI involved you when here you are trying to draw the admins' attention away from the original subject. That's involving yourself.

"You once again display one of your common tactics by side-tracking through focussing on someone else's behavior to try and distract from your own."

Maybe I am trying to throw shade on others to avoid attracting attention to myself—but that doesn't give the admins nearly enough credit. Maybe they really do feel that your habit of misrepresenting things (such as suggesting that I was the subject of this ANI) calls into question the merits of your reports. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 07:26, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Maybe you were not the subject of this report, it’s your actions again that are the root cause of why someone got reported here. Youre edit-warring to the point of breaching WP:3RR again is what caused this sorry mess. And I’m sorry to say this but I think SSSB mishandled the situation and blamed the wrong person. It‘s very telling that the OP of the first report predicted to SportingFlyer that wouldn’t be long before we would return here for an incident sooner rather than later. And barely two weeks later here we are. It’s clear that these are not isolated incidents. And my comments regarding involvement did not deal with the ANI reports, but with the incidents that led to the reports being posted. What I meant to say, is that I was not directly involved with the altercations that caused these reports to be posted, and I stand by that.Tvx1 13:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@Tvx1: You need to stop. It's flagrantly clear from this report and the last report you want Mclarenfan17 to meet with some kind of punishment. If they violated or gamed WP:3RR, we have a special place you can go to report them, which is where this report should be based on a look at 2019 Australian Grand Prix, but they did not. It's the correct place to file a report against the user reported here as well. I've read the entire talk page again and I can't see anything remotely sanctionable. Also, as someone with little interest in racing, I would like to remind everyone involved the article should conform with WP:MOSFLAG, which it does not currently do. SportingFlyer T·C 14:43, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Augurar

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Diffs:

• Previous discussions:

Arbitration Enforcement Request

3RR noticeboard

• Previous Augurar warnings:

Discretionary sanctions in post-1932 politics of the United States articles

Templating the regulars

Discretionary sanctions in Syrian Civil War and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

3RR warning

1RR warning

• Previous IP warnings: [74][75][76][77]

• Relation to IP: [78][79]

Background:

Yesterday I expressed my concerns to user Augurar that they have been using a dynamic IP to edit after they have received several warnings edit warring and reminded about discretionary sanctions regarding post-1932 politics of the United States and the Syrian Civil War. They recently have edited about the US stance on Venezuela, although the interest in the topic goes back months. I fear that this could be to avoid detection and administrative actions. Pinging @Kingsif and SandyGeorgia: --Jamez42 (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit warring and personal attacks

I feel as if M.Billoo2000 has been edit warring with me. He takes offense to almost any thing I do relating to Pakistan Super League. Most recently, he has used ad-hominem attacks against me as noted here [80]. He wants to blank the pages I create and delete my entries for example [81] and [82], but he refuses to use appropriate methods like WP:AFD as mentioned here and here. So said The Great Wiki Lord. (talk) 17:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

This seems to have been resolved (of sorts), with other editors adding content to the meantime. If any editor thinks that creating the page for the 2020 tournament is too soon, then they should take it to AfD. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 20:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Talk:The Great Replacement conspiracy theory

I've semi-protected the talkpage due to the volume of trolling associated with this topic's relation to events in New Zealand and blocked a bunch of users and probable socks. A few more eyes on the subject would be helpful - there are a lot of people that are all stirred up. Nearly every subject involving racial conspiracy theories and racist extremism has seen a significant uptick in trolling, sealioning, and outright hate speech. Acroterion (talk) 20:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

And Unite the Right rally is seeing similar trouble. Acroterion (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protection at Unite the Right rally would be helpful. Leviv ich 21:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I've given it 3 days to see if it helps, and anyone else is welcome to adjust that as needed. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Watchlisted. MastCell ^Talk 14:58, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

White nationalist terrorism

• Ck4829 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user created Category:White nationalist terrorism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and added hundreds of white nationalism-related pages that have no apparent connection to terrorism. Many of these pages are BLPs. To give an example, they added Jack Posobiec to the category. I have no love of Posobiec (or any other white nationalist person or group), but he is most definitely not a terrorist. I would have taken this to BLPN, but many of the pages they added are not BLPs, and there may be some value to the category so XFD doesn't seem like the right place either. I think this is best seen as mass disruption. R2 (bleep) 22:16, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Comment I noticed this too, the editor seems to have a history doing the same thing. Appears to be an ongoing attempt to game Wikipedia (I'm no fan of these right-wing extremists either). Bacondrum (talk) 23:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Seems like the only thing they have been doing for the past year has been adding POV-pushing, mostly inappropriate, categories. Category:Heresy in Christianity to some religious Trump film[83], creation of a now-deleted category called "Perceived judicial activism in the United States" (and adding that category to articles the editor finds to be judicial activist), mass-adding Category:American conspiracy theorists to BLPs that do not contain any sources about them being conspiracy theorists[84][85][86][87][88] Another mass-categorization based on his "Militarization of society" was found to be "completely inappropriate" at CfD. Clearly, if Ck4829 fails to accept that categories need to be supported by the content and sources of the articles (and that this is vital especially in BLPs), he needs to be stopped. --Pudeo (talk) 07:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Since the user has chosen not to respond here or at there talk page but continued to add the category including clearly erroneous cases [89] (thus so far failing the Turing test), I blocked them for 31h. I encourage users to continue discussing here, since, if the above remarks are correct (which I did not have time to check), the user should not be editing Wikipedia at all.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:34, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

To elaborate, the examples I put above (and you could find a lot more) about the category "American conspiracy theorists" had no mentions of conspiracy theories at all, yet he categorized them. However, I said "mostly inappropriate" because some articles do mention conspiracy theories like Michael Flynn[90]. But per WP:DEFINING it's probably still not right to categorize Flynn as a one. Given that the majority are completely unsourced, this is a mass BLP violation that requires a lot of cleanup. Back in 2017 Graham87 stated on this user's talk page that you've been making problematic category edits for the last eleven years; please knock it off. and he did not respond. --Pudeo (talk) 12:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

A quick sampling shows that the editor has been tagging everything that could be remotely construed as racist or white nationalist as "terrorist." This is at least an overreach. In general, categories are supposed to reflect explicit sourcing, and nearly all of the articles that have been tagged have no such description in referenced content. These should all be rolled back, Acroterion (talk) 12:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support indef block due to lack of competency and failure to communicate. The last time that they communicated with anyone on wiki was 2006. Given the warnings by Graham87 and Doug Weller that were ignored, this person has used up the good faith of the community.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
• Rollback all categorizations into Category:White nationalist terrorism. If that category should exist, then pages should only be added to it upon careful consideration, not in the indiscriminate rapid-fire manner that Ck4829 did it. Deli nk (talk) 13:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
• Hold the phone, here. @Ymblanter: you identified this as "clearly erroneous". In that example, we have an article on a Black American war veteran being beaten almost to death by white assailants in a clearly racially motivated hate crime, along with the local and state law apparatus refusing to prosecute. It would be a valid editorial discussion to debate whether or not this qualifies as terrorism, but it is not clearly erroneous. If your block is based on that, it's a bad block.

As for the supposed erroneous conspiracy theorist categorizations, all of them are easily sourceable with the simplest Google search:

• Paul E. Vallely: CNN: "... Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely, a promoter of the birther conspiracy theory ..."
• Gordon Klingenschmitt: Huffpost: "Klingenschmitt claimed [...] that he was booted out of the Navy because of the form of his prayers, when, in reality, he deliberately got himself court-martialed by disobeying a direct order not to appear in uniform at a political rally ..."; also MSNBC: "Klingenschmitt is a rather notorious figure, best known for, among other things, writing a book that argued, in all seriousness, that President Obama is possessed by demons."
• Peter Sprigg: SPLC quoting Sprigg's 2010 book, Homosexual Assault in the Military: "Welcoming open homosexuality in the military would clearly damage the readiness and effectiveness of the force – in part because it would increase the already serious problem of homosexual assault in the military." Sprigg's view has been widely criticized as corresponding with the widely-debunked homosexual recruitment conspiracy theory.
• Wiley Drake: Word & Way: "Drake is plaintiff in a federal suit asking the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to void California's electoral votes for Obama on grounds that he did not meet all the constitutional requirements for eligibility for the office of the president." Or just Google "Wiley Drake birther". Note also all of the widespread coverage of Drake encouraging his followers to pray for Obama to die.
• Tony Perkins: also a birther, among other things; read the article's Controversy section.

If the categories are being added without the sourcing being up to date in the article, then the correct, WP:HERE way to fix that is to add the sourcing to the articles; that's how we get an encyclopedia built. Removing the categories when they're clearly correct does not: it satisfies BLP on the face but actually it's hiding reliable negative information in what could reasonably be seen as an effort to promote these individuals through sanitizing their unsavoury political activities. We should fix these articles. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Adding categories which are not backed up by sourced material is a BLP violation. Doing it instead of addressing the concerns does not make it better. Though of course if someone wants to unblock they are welcome to do so.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:38, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, but categorizing someone as a terrorist or a conspiracy theorist and having it sit there for months for someone else to back up, is a completely wrong course of action in BLPs. Also as mentioned, it's important to consider whether these are WP:DEFINING characteristics of the BLP. --Pudeo (talk) 13:52, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that many of these are WP:BLP violations. The terrorism and conspiracy theory categorizations should be immediately removed from BLPs and only restored after there is explicit consensus that it is appropriate for that article. Gnome de plume (talk) 14:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Actually, in the two cases I reverted the categorisation I checked that the word terrorism was not in the article--Ymblanter (talk) 14:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict × several) Okay, fine. See the collapse below for sections taken directly from the articles, as of Ck4829's edit:

Excerpts from Wikipedia

Paul E. Vallely: In 2010 Vallely was one of three retired general officers who expressed support for U.S. Army Lt. Col. Terrance Lee Lakin in his refusal to deploy to Afghanistan based on Lakin's claim that President Barack Obama had no legitimacy as commander in chief. In an interview, Vallely stated, "I think many in the military—and many out of the military—question the natural-birth status of Barack Obama." Gordon Klingenschmitt: In 2014, Klingenschmitt wrote in an email that openly gay U.S. Representative Jared Polis (D-CO) wanted to execute Christians; both political parties in Colorado disavowed Klingenschmitt. In 2014, Klingenschmitt (then a Republican candidate for Colorado state representative in an eastern El Paso County district) frequently compared President Barack Obama to a demon, saying on one occasion that he was a "demon of tyranny" and was among "the domestic enemies of the Constitution." Klingenschmitt also asserted that "Obamacare causes cancer." In March 2015, in response to an assault where a woman from Longmont, Colorado, had her 34-week-old fetus cut out of her womb, said the incident was evidence of the "curse of God" for abortion. Other Republicans denounced Klingenschmitt's comments. Despite Klingenschmitt's apology and recanting of the remarks, he was removed from the Health, Insurance and Environment Committee for two weeks. He voluntarily suspended his television ministry for six weeks. In July 2015, Klingenschmitt responded to the Boy Scouts of America lifting their ban on gay scoutmasters by saying that this would lead to an increase in child molestation in the organization. The following month, Klingenschmitt reportedly stated that gays and pedophiles are influenced by different demons. In January 2017, he stated that gay men should be disqualified from teaching positions because of "their immorality." Peter Sprigg: He has linked homosexuality to pedophilia, and argued that homosexuals are trying to brainwash children into accepting homosexuality through public schools. Wiley Drake: On The Alan Colmes Show on June 2, 2009, Drake stated that he is engaging in imprecatory prayer, praying for God to kill President Barack Obama, who he claimed needed to "turn his life around." In 2008 he was party to a lawsuit in federal court, Captain Pamela Barnett v. Barack Hussein Obama, which claimed that Barack Obama was not an American citizen and therefore ineligible to be President of the United States. Also in 2008 he said that God would punish Rick Warren for agreeing to give the benediction at the inauguration of Obama, who he called an "evil illegal alien". Tony Perkins (politician): In 2010, the Family Research Council—under Perkins' leadership—was classified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center which characterized the group as "a fount of anti-gay propaganda". Perkins dismissed the hate group designation as a political attack on the FRC by a "liberal organization" and as part of "the left's smear campaign of conservatives". Perkins has also made statements critical of Islam. In September 2010, Perkins claimed that "the ultimate evil has been committed" when Muslims interpret the Quran in its literal context, that Islam "tears at the fabric of democracy," and that World history classes dishonestly portray Islam in a positive light by providing an "airbrushed" portrait of the religion itself. In 2015, Perkins affirmed the debate over Obama's birth certificate as "legitimate", remarking that it "makes sense" to conclude that Obama was a Muslim. References

Note that Ck4829 did not add or modify any of this text, they only added the category. I had to modify one of the references because its website has since been blacklisted, otherwise this is what is currently published on Wikipedia and has been for months at least. These edits were from last November, and the categories are still present in all of those articles as of right now. Why the push to whitewash those articles now? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. No one here is defending white nationalism. Calling something "terrorism" is different. Natureium (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I think he's talking about the "conspiracy theory" categorisation here. Guettarda (talk) 15:26, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Ivan could you refactor and perhaps put the conspiracy theory bits under a subheading? I thought I was the only one confused by this. Fish+Karate 15:49, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Nobody's trying to whitewash anything. It's reasonable for us to expect that categories should not represent one editor's original research or synthesis, and to demand that care be exercised in the use of narrow, pejorative categories. One can make a convincing argument that lynching amounts to terrorism, for example, but that doesn't mean that we should find every article concerning lynching and place a terrorism category. At the very least a consensus needs to exist. I've removed the more obvious examples that I came across. All due care must be exercised for BLPs to ensure that "terrorist" has an explicit basis for inclusion in a BLP, not just an argument that they're bad people deserving of the appellation. Acroterion (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I could add a sub-heading, but it would be below the second comment in the thread. My point, really, is that having brought up these seemingly unrelated categorizations at all (which, as noted, are all properly sourced and were added months ago universally without objection) seems less like it has anything to do with objections to the white nationalist terrorism category and more to do with using this opportunity to suppress valid categorizations which the complainant disagrees with. If someone can pick apart the thread to pull out the influence of that false allegation on the calls for sanctions, they are welcome to do so. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: it would be helpful if you could stop attributing motivations to other editors. I've removed the "white nationalist terrorism" from The Turner Diaries, a racist polemic that advocates racist revolution, Wouter Basson who was unsuccessfully prosecuted for allegations of systematic murder from racist motivations, ghost skin, a racist lifestyle, and others that are tangentially related. Applying "terrorist" to all horrible things cheapens the appellation. Acroterion (talk) 16:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The Turner Diaries is literally a fictional account of a government led by African Americans and Jews being overthrown by a violent white nationalist revolution, which was used as a manifesto by the Oklahoma City bomber and numerous other violent white nationalists, but okay, it doesn't belong in Category:White nationalist terrorism. That sounds like a wonderfully encyclopedic approach to a sensitive topic. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You appear to think I'm arguing about this. You're wrong. I just think that slapping the "terrorist" tag on everything that is unambiguously bad and which can at least tangentially be linked to terrorism, at whatever distance, should be carefully reviewed and discussed. Many of the editor's tags look OK to me, but it is clear that they've been using a very broad brush. Acroterion (talk) 17:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You're right, we agree on that point. I've reviewed a few - it's not just that some of them are inappropriate (I removed one from Golden Circle (proposed country)) but some are just technically improper: they added the category to Dylann Roof, which definitely qualifies, but that article is already a member of a container category that is also a member of the one we're discussing, so it just didn't need to be there. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I think we're working along the same lines. Acroterion (talk) 00:28, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• All five diffs showing the addition of the "conspiracy theorist" category seem correct for those articles based on the content of those articles (see excerpts posted by Ivan above). For my part I think it's an appropriate categorization of Flynn, too (he promoted the Pizzagate nonsense and led crowds in chants of "Lock her up!"). I also agree that Isaac Woodward's case is an example not just of white national terrorism, but state-sponsored white national terrorism. Christian heresy seems an appropriate category for The Trump Prophesy, as the article has a quote that says, "unbiblical at best and heretical at worst". (Also, suggesting a president is a prophet is kind of the definition of heresy, isn't it?) Mass categorizations of hundreds of articles–especially controversial categories added to BLPs–certainly make me nervous, but looking over these diffs leaves me asking, "where's the beef?" Leviv ich 16:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  Again, in the case of Isaac Woodard this might or might not be terrorism. This should be a subject of a discussion. The article currently does not mention terrorism. However, the user so far did not discuss anything, they just continued adding categories like a robot, even after warnings and a message that the ANI discussion has been opened specifically about this issue.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  There is recently (since approximately 2016) some indication that past incidents of white nationalist violence are coming to be seen as terrorism, or at least being compared to incidents of violence perpetrated by non-whites which were described as terrorism at the time. It's pretty likely that the editor was swept up in that when they created this category, and there are several examples of inappropriate categorizations (related to Category:White nationalist terrorism specifically) in their recent edits. This probably should have been addressed by discussing with the user, but you can't discuss things with a user who doesn't interact, so I have to agree with your block (I'll strike my "bad block" comment as soon as I can find it in the mess of edit conflicts). I object to further sanctions, at least not yet - see if the user responds after their block. As for the category itself, it's valid at least on the face of it although it could probably just be up-merged into Category:White nationalism, and many of the articles it's been attached to do need to be reviewed. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  Yes I think we all agree that these categorizations (like all categorizations) are subject to review and consensus by editors. But I see these as good faith additions–BRD means I can add a category, and somebody can remove it, and as long as I don't re-add it, I'm not being disruptive, right? So by "where's the beef?" I mean, "where's the conduct issue?" ("beef" as in "complaint", that's the double entendre, you see...), not that every categorization was correct. So far the ones I've seen are at least correct or could be correct and thus made in good faith. By the way, for my part, I think all lynchings are terrorism by definition and that all lynching articles should be categorized as terrorism, and if government officials aided or permitted the lynchings, then it's state-sponsored white nationalist terrorism, but that's a conversation for another page. (Someone ping me and I'll bring the sources.) Leviv ich 17:46, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Copied from Ck4829's talk page by Leviv ich 18:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC):

Hello, I'm serving my time as I should, I am appealing nothing, I meant to disrupt and I succeeded, guilty. My edits went too far, maybe? But I sought out include individuals, cheerleaders, ideologues, organizations, symbols, rhetoric, propaganda all as white nationalist terrorism. While it's clearly a very uncomfortable subject, I find it odd that practically nobody corrected my 'overreach' with what appropriate examples are, if someone were to tell people in that discussion something, one could tell them "I put absolutely nothing in that category as a joke or to be ironic and I sought out to populate it as quickly as possible."

I hope that helps, I've been told by a friend I should probably limit my time on Wikipedia for a while, especially going through all those disgusting pages.

Ck4829 (talk) 18:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) To be honest folks, the collective reaction to my complaint sickens me a bit. Pudeo's perfectly reasonable pointing to Ck4829's past questionable behavior over conspiracy theorists quickly led to the discussion being railroaded in an inappropriate direction. What on earth are we doing picking out one or two of the hundreds and hundreds of questionable categorizations to bicker over whether they're correct or not? It shouldn't matter. If an editor indiscriminately mass-tags 500 articles, and 250 of them end up being correct, does that mean the mass tagging was appropriate? Does it mean we now have to pick through all 500 of them, and does it mean the editor wasn't being disruptive? No of course not; if half the stuff in the Wikipedia is incorrect and inflammatory, then that stuff does FAR more damage than the good that's done by the half that's correct. Not to mention the ridiculous burden that's placed on the community by this sort of indiscriminate mass tagging. Throw in the BLP dimension, and the contention that we should pick through these categorizations one by one is flatly contrary to core policy. I mean as best as I can tell, this editor literally was taking every single white nationalism page and adding it to white nationalism terrorism. That's blatant disruption. It might even be part of an effort to game search engine results. Don't lose the forest through the trees, guys. Geesh. R2 (bleep) 18:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  Are 250 out of 500 incorrect? I look at Category:White nationalist terrorism and while I haven't gone through each one of the 100+ pages, scanning the list, it all seems in order: KKK, White Patriot Party, assassination of Barack Obama plots, Emmett Till... granted, these may have already been cleaned up by others, and I can't see what it used to look like. Spot checking the contribs, I'm seeing instances of other editors edit warring to keep in his categorizations. None jump out at me as incorrect. Some are not properly diffused (or whatever you call it), but... maybe I'm just not seeing it. Leviv ich 19:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I should have clarified, that was purely a hypothetical. However I just looked through Ck4829's 10 most recent tags, and only 3 of them said anything about terrorism. R2 (bleep) 19:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I went through 50 or so before petering out, and the proportion that mentioned terrorism stayed at roughly 30%. There was some wiggle room due to ambiguity of what might be considered a reference to terrorism. R2 (bleep) 19:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

To be clear, we're talking about these 10: Eutaw, Donald, Rosewood, Till, Tulsa, Woodward, Duluth, Soweto, Overland, 16th St. Which of these are not proper for the category White nationalist terrorism? Leviv ich 19:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think they're improper, but I think that the category structure would be better served if the category were applied to a higher-level category which these incidents are already categorized in. For example, Category:Ku Klux Klan crimes ought to be a member of the white nationalist terrorism category, and that would catch most of these articles already. Possibly also Category:Lynching in the United States, and/or Category:Racially motivated violence against African Americans. This is my point, anyway, that the categories aren't really incorrect, they're just incorrectly applied. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:26, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 3) Well, when a new category is created, it needs to be populated. We have several "terrorism" subcategories within other nationalist category trees, and (as I observed above) the subject of white nationalist terrorism is being actively discussed recently, and so mass-populating the new category with articles related to white nationalist violence is a reasonable approach. Most have been fairly accurate, some are a stretch, a handful have been shown to be editorially inappropriate, but I don't think anyone so far has found one which was definitely wrong (as in, say, dropping Abraham Lincoln Alexander Hamilton into this category). Regarding Posobiec: it is a reasonable view that deliberate alt-right false news constitutes terrorist propaganda; it's not right for Wikipedia to repeat that opinion without decent sources and considering an appropriate balance, but this falls within my definition of stretching. Most of the obvious problems that I've seen while picking through these is that they are duplicates via parent categories, and so while the category is valid it's also redundant. None of this on its own should've been grounds for a block, but there were other factors.

A bigger question maybe is if Wikipedia can describe these incidents as terrorism, I mean I would, but if sources don't agree then the category needs to be renamed. Category:White nationalist violence would be a suitable replacement title. It would usefully narrow the category and simply definitions that way: people like Posobiec who promote nationalism through their media channels but don't themselves actually participate in violent incidents would be excluded, and it's more likely then that remaining members of the category would be defined by this aspect. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

If only all editors got the level of "stretching" that you're giving this editor. I mean no offense but a garden variety alt-right Twitter troll like Posobiec is in no way, shape, or form a terrorist nor a terrorist propagandist, and saying otherwise seems like a pretty clear-cut BLP vio to me. But that's just my opinion, of course. R2 (bleep) 19:40, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, these sources appear to disagree: [91] [92] [93] - I'm not saying these are good sources, we probably couldn't use them (really, they lie between "probably not acceptable" and "what the fuck were you thinking?"), I'm just making the point that calling Posobiec and/or other promoters of conspiracies and fear news "propagandists" and "terrorists" is not exactly novel. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think this comment reflects well on you. Your sourcing standards... leave a lot to be desired. I don't know what part of the encyclopedia you've done most of your editing in, but that would never, ever fly in the AP space. R2 (bleep) 20:04, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You do see where I wrote that we couldn't use these sources, right? I'm demonstrating that Posobiec has been described as a terrorist (an "information terrorist", most directly) in one or two opinion pieces (and self-described, but obviously in jest), not that Wikipedia should describe him this way. And if one were to subscribe to that opinion, then categorizing Posobiec's bio in a "white nationalist terrorism" category is definitely a stretch (by which I mean that we cannot do it), for Wikipedia's purposes it's wrong, it violates a bunch of editorial policies, but it's just reasonable enough that it should not be considered a blockable offence (in isolation). I was expecting you would be able to see that point, as I thought I described it reasonably well, but I'm also tiring of your subtle personal attacks so I'm going to stop trying to explain this to you. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I understand now. And to clarify my position, I never suggested that this editor should be blocked for a single miscategorization. Hell no, that would be awful. The problem is the volume and the amount of painstaking work required to fix the violations short of a mass rollback or a TNT deletion of the entire category. R2 (bleep) 20:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• No offense to him or anyone else, but I think it's fair to ask if this edit renders Ivanvector involved? It was after his first comment here, but it certainly looks like he's thrown himself into the content dispute. R2 (bleep) 19:28, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Sure I'm involved. What's your point? Unless you have a specific involved administrative action of mine that you're suggesting should be reviewed by the community, this just looks like trying to stir up shit. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Take it easy there, and please assume good faith. No stirring here. You're weighing in on whether some administrative action should be taken, so it seems appropriate for other admins to know that you're involved. No more, no less. R2 (bleep) 19:34, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

No, you're questioning my competence to comment on this discussion at all. Why does my being or not being an administrator have anything to do with it? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Happy to take this to user talk, but continuing the bad-faith accusations here is disruptive. Just calm down, dude. You're a good admin. I didn't mean to get under your skin. R2 (bleep) 19:41, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Then maybe don't start tossing around accusations of administrative misconduct in a content dispute, if you don't want to get peoples' backs up. I'm not the one who made a bad-faith accusation in this section. If you want to move on that's fine by me. I'll start a discussion on that article's talk page about the blurb I added that you reverted, but I'll have to do it a bit later. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:47, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• I agree that there may be a better name for the category, and that and all other categorization discussions should be had somewhere other than ANI. Bringing it back, I still do not see diffs of activities that merit bringing this editor to ANI and blocking him without so much as a talk page warning or any other attempt to communicate at their talk page. If all we have is what's been brought here so far, I respectfully suggest the editor should be unblocked, this thread closed, and a dialogue should be opened with them on their talk page if there's any problem with how they're categorizing pages. It took me all of five seconds to open communications with the editor, so I'm not sure why others have skipped this step in this case. Leviv ich 20:01, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I brought this here mainly because I think their categorization effort should be rolled back, and I didn't know of a better place to request that. I still don't. It's odd to suggest that I was somehow required to discuss the matter with an editor who hadn't participated in a single talk page discussion since 2006 before attempting to address what still appears to be a serious and widespread BLP problem. R2 (bleep) 20:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

To me that's a strange reason not to try and communicate with someone. Anyway, I think an attempt at resolving a dispute on a user's talk page should be a prerequisite to filing at ANI. Leviv ich 20:24, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• Looks like an overcat for many entries. Something can be a massacre, a crime, segregation, whatever, but one needs an RS explicitly telling that "event X was an act of terrorism". For example, not every crime against humanity was terrorism. I think this needs to be discussed at the CfD, and people should check the pages and sub-categories if the category will be kept. My very best wishes (talk) 23:04, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

behavior

• " I am appealing nothing, I meant to disrupt and I succeeded, guilty." 1 Still support indef block based on behavior. He would do it again. The content dispute above should be left off as we don't have content disputes at ANI.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
• I would also support an indef based on that. Natureium (talk) 20:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose indef, I suggest instead a topic ban from categorization, as in, they may not create or edit categories, and neither add nor remove categories from articles. Their "I meant to disrupt" treatise isn't promising, but I'm hopeful it's a result of broken English, and anyway I'm not aware of any disruption not directly related to categories. Point taken about content disputes. There's some cleanup to do as a result of the incident reported here, maybe editors would like to meet me at Category talk:White nationalist terrorism? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Ivanvector, you are involved by your own words. The !voting should be from uninvolved editors shouldn't it?
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:17, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Berean Hunter: I have a great deal of respect for you, so I'm curious as to what you mean with this comment which I might call nonsensical if it had been written by someone else. We do not restrict editors (admin or otherwise) from making comments in community discussions, with exceptions of a very small few who are subject to specific restrictions, unless I am very badly mistaken. "Editors involved in disputes hashing it out in public" could easily be a subtitle for this page. I'm just honestly confused by your comment. The statement you're referring to is not intended as an admission of involvement but a question to the accuser of why in the hell it mattered whether or not I was involved. And seeing as I was being accused of desysop-level administrative misconduct (WP:INVOLVED) pretty much out of nowhere ("admins should be aware" my ass) yeah, I was angry about it. I have no prior association with the blocked editor nor as far as I know outside of this thread with the original poster. My entire "involvement", outside of having commented here, is one edit I made to the white nationalism page today (this one), which was reverted by the OP, and which I have not (yet) challenged. I haven't taken any administrative actions here or anywhere in relation to the issue being discussed. Even if I had, going back to the comment you referred to, what the hell does it matter? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 23:58, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• I wasn't suggesting tool misuse had occurred. A fair question was asked "No offense to him or anyone else, but I think it's fair to ask if this edit renders Ivanvector involved? It was after his first comment here, but it certainly looks like he's thrown himself into the content dispute." 1. The correct answer is yes and he never alleged tool misuse at all. I believe that he was trying to really find out your status and whether you would be involved if you took admin action. You accused him of "trying to stir up shit". He clarified, "Take it easy there, and please assume good faith. No stirring here. You're weighing in on whether some administrative action should be taken, so it seems appropriate for other admins to know that you're involved. No more, no less." Your reply was "No, you're questioning my competence to comment on this discussion at all." That is an allegation without evidence as he never accused you of administrative misconduct and I do think that he has a valid point about "weighing in on whether some administrative action should be taken, so it seems appropriate for other admins to know that you're involved." But to answer your question, "Even if I had (taken any administrative actions), going back to the comment you referred to, what the hell does it matter?" Then that would most certainly be tool abuse.
• Comments are allowed by all editors here but they should be given appropriate weight. This should be decided based on the neutral parties. Not looking to make an case of this, but you need to realize that you are indeed involved in the dispute and are not being impartial. Someone came here because they needed to report something and you have involved yourself in the content matter which isn't something that I've seen from the other admins in this thread. I don't think that your !voting is made by an impartial admin in this case.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:31, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  How can an editor be in a content dispute if they never communicate and never revert? How can an admin be involved in a content dispute if there is no content dispute to begin with? Leviv ich 02:54, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• You would be arguing with him because in his own words, "Then maybe don't start tossing around accusations of administrative misconduct in a content dispute" 2.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oh, now who's wikilawyering, Berean? :-) Leviv ich 03:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Just countering the goofiness.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Since when does WP:INVOLVED forbid administrators from commenting on editorial disputes and suggesting or commenting on proposed courses of action? I'll answer for you, to save you the "goofiness": it doesn't. If I wrote the fucking category myself and tagged every page in the fucking encyclopedia with it, those actions would not bar me from commenting on another editor's issue with the category. It is not tool abuse to comment. It isn't. It's "goofy" that you believe it is.

Calling out my supposed involvement here has nothing to do with an impartial review of the reported matter, it's plainly meant to have a chilling effect. If I had made an administrative action or suggested that I was going to, then calling my status into question would have been completely valid. But pulling it out of nowhere just to tell other editors that my comment should be disregarded is plainly an ad hominem meant to cast doubt on my ability to comment, based on my userrights and having nothing to do with the substance of my comments. It's plainly a personal attack, and I'm annoyed that you keep repeating it. If editors can use INVOLVED to scare off any admin that makes a comment they don't like, we have a problem. That is clearly not the policy's purpose. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 11:59, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

The "goofiness" is in reference to Levi's wikilawyering that there isn't a content dispute, among other things below that had nothing to do with you. I never said that it was tool abuse to comment, "Comments are allowed by all editors here but they should be given appropriate weight." I have made no personal attacks. You seem to be equating that INVOLVED must equal an allegation of wrongdoing which is incorrect. And your involvement runs deeper than the one edit. I imagine that it would be confusing of R2 to report a matter here and think he is getting an impartial admin review. You didn't give that. "I'm not the one who made a bad-faith accusation in this section." 3 but yes, you did when you said "Why the push to whitewash those articles now?" 4 which set the tone between you and R2 and others which is casting aspersions by questioning their motives. Another admin has told you that "...it would be helpful if you could stop attributing motivations to other editors." 5 but you still haven't stopped.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:20, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose sanction without warning – If you look at User talk:Ck4829, there was a level one template warning given for one particular page 21:43 17 March, and a half hour later, 22:18 17 March, an ANI notice. The editor did not edit in that half hour. The prior warning was five months ago in October. The editor made many edits between October and March that apparently nobody complained about, at least not on their talk page. It's unfair to sanction an editor without giving them a warning first and a chance to actually respond to that warning. Leviv ich 21:11, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • ...he picked right back up and started the same thing at "23:03, March 17" 1 totally ignoring the messages that three different editors left him. Ymblanter's block was because the guy intentionally ignored communications and you have made a ridiculous argument. He admitted it and here you are wikilawyering an untenable position. He was given warnings that he chose to ignore.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

    Berean Hunter, what messages that three different editors left him are you referring to? Before this ANI was filed, there was one message, and it did not say "don't add more categories". The ANI notice doesn't say that (nor does it say, "come to ANI and talk to us"). Nobody at any point left any messages on his talk page asking to stop doing anything, or asking him to join a conversation, or asking him anything. When I posted a message, I got a response in minutes. Can you post a diff of a message that he "ignored"? I have no idea what editors are referring to when they accuse this editor of a communication problem. He was taken to ANI and blocked before anyone even said hello. Leviv ich 02:48, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• • Sure it does. From the very first message, "please stop adding POV categories to pages." 1.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:11, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

That level one template message was left at 21:43 17 March. They added Category:White nationalist terrorism to the following pages after that, before their block:Tulsa, Woodward, Duluth, Soweto, Overland, 16th St. For which of these pages is "White nationalism terrorism" a "POV category"? Do you disagree about that categorization for any of those pages? (Spoiler alert: On the Duluth talk page, you'll see I posted sources supporting that categorization, like the New York Times, a peer-reviewed journal, and a book from a university publisher, so I guess that makes me involved, too.) Leviv ich 03:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

First, I'm not getting into the content dispute and second, you did not address where I just flatly proved you wrong. Can Leviv admit they were wrong about the first message where you said, "Nobody at any point left any messages on his talk page asking to stop doing anything".
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

That message was posted 30 minutes before the ANI was posted (I'm running out of ways to emphasize that), and they did not edit between the posting of that message and the posting of the ANI (as I said above). After the ANI was posted, their categorizations weren't POV (I posted the diffs above, twice). Leviv ich 03:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

So, no Levi can't admit when he is wrong. You wrote "Before this ANI was filed, there was one message, and it did not say "don't add more categories"." but clearly it does and your arguments fell apart. No one is going to believe your arguments because they lack credibility.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 04:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Berean, the one message said "please don't add more POV categories", and he didn't add any categories between the message and the ANI post, so what justifies the ANI post in the first place? And, he didn't add any "POV categories" after the ANI post, so why the block? I guess since "POV" has no real meaning in the phrase "POV category", yes, technically someone did tell him to stop adding categories before the ANI was filed, so I was wrong earlier when I said that template didn't say that. I don't think that really undercuts anything about how this editor was given no warning before being taken to ANI (since they didn't edit in the half hour between the level one template and the ANI post), but I'm happy to leave it there. Leviv ich 04:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support indef, per Berean Hunter. Besides, anything less would send a very bad signal. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 22:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose indef. Sure, that message looks really bad out of context, but reading the entire post does not suggest to me an editor who needs to be hit with the fullest possible force of the banhammer or anything remotely close. It looks clear to me that the editor does not understand the special idiomatic use of the term "disruptive" in our community and was not trying to express that they were trying to disrupt our processes, but rather were trying to "disrupt" in the sense that an activist might use it--now, the user clearly needs to be educated as to the fact that the one can become the other in a hurry and that activism itself is often incompatible with good editing--and vitally, engaging with the concerns of other editors is a must when they feel you have crossed the line on appropriate editing. They should be made aware that "as quickly as possible" is close to a complete inversion of the approach we favour here. But far from convincing me that this user is so disruptive that they cannot be allowed to continue to contribute, their talk page message actually openly contemplates that their are reasonable limits to what content should be added, and that they understand their edits may have crossed that line.

So the real issue here is that they need to learn to become more engaged with both the consensus process and responding to concerns. I think that can be effectuated in this case well short of an indef--or at least that we can afford to start with WP:ROPE in that respect. If the propensity for adding the same kind of problematic edit and refusing to engage in discussion persists, then I think we are starting to look at a long-term sanction, but I don't think we're there yet. Snow ^{let's rap} 22:50, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

If they have competency issues that is their own fault as they never responded to any messages where it could be discussed. It isn't because other editors haven't tried repeatedly. They have over 2400 edits and they are a 2005 account that ignored warnings and didn't communicate until they were blocked. He has said that he isn't appealing but I believe that we have the right to get assurances that it won't happen again and he hasn't given us that. Keep him blocked until he does. Indef doesn't mean forever and he is the one that can do something about that...but none of you can.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

It is because editors haven't tried repeatedly. Diffs or it didn't happen. I posted the timeline above: there was a message in October, and then a level 1 template in March, and 30 minutes later they're at ANI. I hate peppering this thread but you're kind of stretching the facts IMO. Leviv ich 02:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

You got it wrong and most everything else, too. I posted the correct diff above.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:29, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

So you said It isn't because other editors haven't tried repeatedly. and as evidence you post a diff of a message 30 minutes before the ANI was posted and you call that support? The last talk page message before that diff you posted was in October. That's why I said what you said wasn't factual. Leviv ich 03:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Nope, I was answering to the longer wiki career and the other warnings that admins and editors had left for a very long time. The one diff was to refute what you had written in a different post. They are not the same. Two different posts and you have mixed things up again.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:55, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

They edited between October and March, adding a bunch of categories and nobody complained. Then there was a level one template, and after 30 minutes in which they did not edit, an ANI post. Then they added Category:White nationalist terrorism to Tulsa, Woodward, Duluth, Soweto, Overland, and 16th St, and were blocked, and now you think they should be indef'd. Are you disagreeing with the facts as I've laid them out in this post? Leviv ich 04:02, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I think they should be indeffed until we get our assurances. ROPE comes after.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 04:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Did you just say ROPE comes after an indef? :-D Leviv ich 04:20, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that is how it is usually done. See ROPE...particularly When not to use: "If the user was justifiably blocked but is not giving any indication that they even feel they did anything wrong".
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 04:31, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Many of these edits are to BLPs, where we must have definite cast iron sourcing before we class people as White Supremacist Terrorists (or involved in White Supremacist Terrorism). The editor does not seem to express any understanding of the vital need for such sourcing. They should remain blocked until they make it clear they understand the requirements for BLPs (and probably should be topic banned from categorisation even if they are unblocked).Nigel Ish (talk) 23:22, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support indef. Seems like the categories were being wielded as a weapon to serve a greater cause. I can sympathize with that, but applying a contentious category to a BLP should be done thoughtfully and with consensus. Extended failure to communicate isn't something to encourage. Schazjmd (talk) 23:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  I agree extended failure to communicate isn't something to encourage, but when I posted a message to their talk page today, I got an answer within minutes, and I think I'm the only one who has really tried to reach out to this editor, ever, so I don't see an extended failure to communicate. Leviv ich 02:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Rollback

There's a lot of discussion here about sanctions, but meanwhile we have hundreds of miscategorizations, including BLP violations. (Isn't that the more pressing issue?) I propose a rollback of all of Ck4829's additions to Category:White nationalist terrorism. R2 (bleep) 06:48, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

The category has been removed everywhere. Fram (talk) 10:13, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@Fram: I'm not sure if you're saying that you removed it, but if so, you missed redirects and other categories where it's still in use. I presume you'll correct that (I'm apparently not allowed) but also I have a question. Would you entertain a discussion on proper use of the category and/or renaming/refining its scope, or is removing it from all pages an indication that it should not be used anywhere? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the actual existence of the cat, and no objection to people using it as any other cat (under BLP rules and the like). The reversion (which I'll complete, thanks, my AWB option was too restrictive) is about the way it was added here, in an indiscriminate (or way too braod and problematic) manner, for a category that is obviously controversial if used incorrectly. Fram (talk) 12:31, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Category is now truly empty. Fram (talk) 12:42, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Logged out editing: IP 82.165.86.117

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82.165.86.117 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Appeared out of the blue and leaving DS alert on user pages, lawyering, and reverting on obscure Wikipedia essays. Ignored requests for them to log in on their talk page. Need a block and a SPI. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 22:16, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Without commenting upon the merits of all this, the IP is quite right to complain about the way anonymous editors get treated (which is, like garbage). Madness ^Darkness 22:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Yawn... show where the IP is being distructive or doing something wrong. Legacypac (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Maybe their (very short) contribs history? This: [94] (twice) is pure disruption, especially given Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2019_March_9#Wikipedia:VERYFINEPEOPLE.

And don't use "Yawn..." as a prefix when you've been too damned lazy to look for yourself. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I already watchlist that page - saw the reverts before this was filed. The editors that reverted the IP should really discuss the issue on the talkpage first. I already looked at all their contributions before posting so don't call me lazy. Legacypac (talk) 23:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflictx2) Did you seriously use the fact a user was editing from an IP as your explanation for reversion? WP:HUMAN Madness ^Darkness 23:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It's not disruption. If you have a redirect to a Wikipedia page, and a deletion discussion closes with no consensus, then there is definitely no consensus for having the shortcut in the Wikipedia page, and if there is no consensus for a shortcut then it gets removed, obviously.Lurking shadow (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

That's not how "no consensus" works. There was no consensus to delete the redirect. You're in the opposite position here.--Jorm (talk) 00:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Deletion of pages does not happen with no consensus, usually. I didn't do that. Removal of shortcuts is obviously something different - shortcuts should be universally accepted(they suggest that you can use the shortcut without problems) plus the shortcut is longer than the page name(which renders it meaningless).Lurking shadow (talk) 00:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The purpose of this redirect, as was obvious for every editor at the RfD, was to be used from this page. It's not a typical mainspace redirect, it's a WP:ALLCAPS one. And there was no consensus to remove it. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• So your "Yawn..." doesn't mean "Just ignore this, it's only tedious low-level vandalism" it's actually, "Don't mind them, they're just a logged-out experienced editor doing my 3RR and 4RR for me"? Is it you that we need to run a CU on? Seriously unimpressed with your behaviour now. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Multiple ec) User:Andy Dingley accused me of sockpuppetry. SPI is the correct forum for that accusation, and I want them to retract the accusation here. Legacypac (talk) 00:41, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

User:SMcCandlish disregarding ban from my talk

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User:SMcCandlish (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

SMcCandlish posted on my talk to query an RFC close I had made, as he is of course entitled to do.[95]

Two rounds later, he was making maliciously false accusations of bad faith[96] putting into my mouth the words "I get angry when when my closes are faintly criticized, and will spin implausible interpretations of what someone wrote just so I can vent".

So I ended the discussion[97] at 0043

At 00:47 I hatted it[98] with a ping to SMcCandlish, saying "Stay off my talk".

Meanwhile, SMcCandlish had begun a series of edits to one of my userpages which was clearly headed This page is for discussion by invitation of the User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria. If other editors who wish to express views on the draft, please comment at User talk:BrownHairedGirl.

Those edits were timestamped:

• 0030 [99]
• 0044 [100]
• 0051 [101]
• 0056 [102]
• 0102 [103]
• 0103 [104]

I reverted or removed all of those, using undo wherever possible to ping SMcCandlish, and noting every time which part of "If other editors who wish to express views on the draft, please comment at User talk:BrownHairedGirl" was unclear to you???

I replied to one of the group working on that who had posted[105] If the User:SMcCandlish is going to be part of this working group I'm out of here. I agreed wholeheartedly; we had just had a live demo of the futility of trying to discuss a disagreement with SMcCandlish.

SMcCandlish then posted again on my talk page[106], despite being explicitly asked to stay off it.

Please can someone who speaks the McCandlishish language try to convey to him the meaning of that "stay off my talk page" and his page is for discussion by invitation means?

I have work to be getting on with, and don't want to waste time in a sprawling edit war on my own userpages with an editor who assumes bad faith. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: did you mean this page? --DannyS712 (talk) 02:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes she means "This" page which is not for "It" to disrupt. Legacypac (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• Incidentally, I was drafting a WP:AN report about BrownHairedGirl's behavior in the same "incident". BHG's diffs above are a very incomplete and misleading picture. Not only is the "ban" bogus (there's not actually any such thing, per WP:USERPAGE, and especially not for an admin, per WP:ADMINACCT; what there can be is a request to stay away from someone's talk page, then not abiding by it for unconstructive purposes being considered a form of disruptive editing), BHG repeatedly made demands that I take the matter under discussion to her talk page after supposedly "banning" me from it, a blatant case of WP:GAMING#Gaming the consensus-building process.

  So, do we want to merge these ANI and AN threads? I'm raising ADMINACCT and WP:ADMINCOND concerns in the AN I opened.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:50, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  To address some of the above, here: "we had just had a live demo of the futility of trying to discuss a disagreement with SMcCandlish" – No, what you had was a weird over-reaction to someone criticizing one of your closes, then you ignored every single substantive thing I was saying about the RfC draft (which has nothing to do with your close or my criticism of it), and censored my input from the page you directed me to, pretended to "ban" me from your user talk, then demanded 5 or 6 times that I take the RfC drafting matters to your user talk (after supposedly banning from me it), censored the material again, ignored my e-mail trying to smooth this out with you, and instead opened this bogus ANI report. You're also engaging in blatant WP:FACTION behavior with Legacypac (note the above attempt to tie this to a completely unrelated kerfuffle from last week – this is about personalized vindictiveness, not substance). This is conduct grossly unbecoming an admin. All after I repeatedly made clear to you that my only intent is helping produce an RfC that is likely to come to an actual consensus, and that we're in damned agreement that many of these portals need to be deleted, than an RfC is necessary, and that the community does need to establish standards for them. All this pointless drama because I dared to very mildly criticize one of your related closes (and even conceded to every point of your rebuttal but one, the "mandate" line, in which you denied the reality of having said that). Look, you had an actual ally in resolving the portal mess, whom you instead decided to dress up in an enemy costume and shoot at just for your own stress relief. Very silly. I would suggest WP:BOOMERANG, because you can't bait an editor into a "you can't use my talk page but you must use my talk page" trap and then ANI them for it; but I think the AN thread will have this covered.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC); revised 03:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  Cross reference this subtread Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Non-open_drafting_of_an_RfC_about_portals,_and_BHG_behavior_in_relation_to_it Legacypac (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  So uptight and seeing conspiracy around every corner they don't even find their own jokes funny. Not a productive contributor to the discussion. Legacypac (talk) 03:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  Sounds self-referential to me.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  • Update: I'm done for the day, and may not be back tomorrow, at least until late. I've said all I need to say about this here at the AN thread. The short version is that BHG assumes awareness of her intents that I did not possess at the time, and nothing excuses the "you can't use my talk page but you must use my talk page" trap-baiting. This ANI is unclean hands and vexatious. However, what I really care about is the RfC that emerges, as covered at the AN thread, which is broader than this ANI one (i.e., merge in that direction if we need to consolidate the discussions). The inter-editor dispute aspects of this can just go away for all I care. While I've raised ADMINCOND concerns, I'm not pressing for anything but an admonition, and have tried twice in e-mail to let bygones be bygones about all this "malicious" finger-pointing. But that really is an AGF problem; disagreeing with someone isn't "malice".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, your massive timewasting sprawl of bad faith, misrepresentations, outright falsehoods, character attacks, smears, dismissal of multiple requests not to post on my talkpages, and allegations that I am somehow gaming the consensus-building system are a disgrace.

It appears that you have decided to

A/ throw a tantrum because your misrepresentations and repeated assumptions bad faith make you impossible to work with

B/ try to throw up enough FUD to bully me out of my attempt to work with a small balanced group to refine a draft RFC whose specific stated aim is to to ensure that all options which may command support are presented here, and not to promote my preferences.

I will pick apart some of the lies in SMcC's para above:

1. weird over-reaction to someone criticizing one of your closes
   No, SMcC, there is nothing weird about breaking off communication in response to your malicious claim that I was spin implausible interpretations of what someone wrote just so I can vent. That outrageous allegation that I am acting dishonestly in bad faith makes dialogue impossible.
2. ignored every single substantive thing I was saying about the RfC draft
   It is being drafted by a small group. We did not invite your input, and given your conduct earlier I do not want to engage with you.
   I have no interest in dealing with any of the substance of what is said by someone who behaves as badly as you have done in the last 12 hours. I am astonished by your extraordinary sense of entitlement that you believe you have some right to go to a page explicitly for the use of 5 editors, and post vast screeds to it, after you have already made bogus assertions of my bad faith
3. You're also engaging in blatant WP:FACTION behavior with Legacypac. See User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Draft_RFC_on_Portal_criteria#Can_we_draft_a_joint_proposal where I set out how I invited four people to work with me, not one, and how two of them are on the opposite site of the debate to me. That's all publicly visible, on a page you edited many times -- so your alegation that i am faction-forming is quite transparently something which know to be false. In other words, it is a deliberate, malicious falsehood.
4. a blatant case of WP:GAMING#Gaming the consensus-building process.
   Again, malicious nonsense, easily disprovable. My aims are set clearly set out at User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria#Intro and User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria#Can_we_draft_a_joint_proposal. See for example my reply[107] to Legacypac's suggestion that a section be omitted: Please remember that what we are trying to do here is to identify proposals worth presenting to the community, not to reach conclusions on whether any of us supports the proposal.
5. nothing excuses the "you can't use my talk page but you must use my talk page" trap-baiting
   There was no such trap-baiting. There was 1) a request for you to stay off my talk page, which you ignored; 2) a page to which you were not invited, which clearly listed those who were invited, and which clearly said those who were not invited should not post them.
   That's not trap-baiting; it is either a comprehension problem on your part, or a choice by you to simply ignore what was clearly written.
6. I've raised ADMINCOND concerns
   No, you raise a legitimate question about an RFC closure, and when I answered you honestly you chose to falsely accuse me of "spin and "venting". It is no part of ADMINCOND to put up with malicious accusations of bad faith.

I have can only guess at what you are trying to achieve by this shitstorm of malicious misrepresentation, but it looks like the behaviour of a drunk spoiling for a fight and lashing out in bogus accusations because you had not comprehended plain English. I hope that you feel better in the morning, and that you do not repeat such shameful tantrum. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Follow-up notes

• I've removed the personal recommendation from the close as closes are meant to be editorial and consensus-based in nature (none of which was made here) and not opinionative. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 07:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  I woke up early, and have a few minutes to go over this. "SmC to respect BHG's wishes on the two points listed above" is off-point, really, since I was clearly not posting there at all (to either BHG's talk page, other than for a required WP:AN template, or to the RfC draft talk page, which is technically a subpage of BHG's talk page) after noticing her "ban". The close is trying to "stop and prevent" something that wasn't happening and won't happen. I'll also add that our third round of e-mail has been a failure. Despite me reiterating that this has just been an assumptions-predicated communications failure we should drop, BHG threw this back in my face with another round of projective "malicious" finger-pointing, and ratcheted up the hate-mail tone with a strange accusation of being an "angry drunk" who should "sleep it off". The only one angry here is BHG (and maybe Legacypac for other reasons); my tone in this has been entirely matter-of-fact. I'm not butt-hurt about this stuff, it's simply evidence that BHG is displaying a temperament unsuited to adminship. If it continues, it will lead to an RfArb, since persistence in assuming bad faith and seeking to intensify instead of rectify a dispute is an ADMINCOND failure, as was opening an ANI after baiting someone into a trap. The close above is in obvious error in being one-sided. It's not an error ArbCom will make.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  That is your prerogative, but the thread has been closed and you have been asked to refrain from addressing BHG for a couple of days. Fish+Karate 13:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  SMcCandlish, the conclusion is you had best not contribute to BHG's user space, itemised as 1 and 2. Is this not acceptable? cygnis insignis 13:22, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Just to say that BHG and SM are both editors whose talents I value, and I hope they can, with time, put this behind them. Maybe, someday soon, they will find some little task somewhere they can collaborate on, and thus heal the rift. EEng 17:53, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • That would be fine by me, but seems unlikely when one side is convinced (without any evidence) that the other is "malicious". I don't actually have a theory about why BHG is behaving this way (I'm not a mind-reader), but obviously nothing constructive can come of it. I'm a big fan of WP:SHUN in such cases, but that means that BHG has to stop e-mailing me.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
• To answer Cygnis insignis's direct question: Yes, of course that's acceptable, but it was already the status quo. However, the one-sidedness of this close has had consequences already. I asked BHG to stop e-mailing me and told her that future rants from her would go unread. My filters tell me I've already received two more since then (I can tell they're rants since I get a preview of the content's first line). It's starting to look like an RfArb is inevitable. It's not permissible for a WP editor – much less an admin – to engage in offline harassment of another editor in furtherance of on-WP disputes. And the hypocrisy of it is just amazing.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • If this does go to arbitration, then part of my evidence will be the full set of emails, which will deminstarte that SMcCandlish's comment above is yet another bare-faced lie. (By "lie" I mean untrue as matter of provable fact which was known to SMcCandlish when he made the claim)

1. This discussion was closed at 07:12, 18 March .
2. My last email before then was timestamped 03:47.
3. The next email in the series is from SMcCandlish to me, timestamped 12:42. It's a rant, startring with the words "More projection".
4. I replied at 20:56 with two words "get lost".

So far from me engaging in offline harassment, the evidence will show that SMcCandlish continued to harass me after the closer here recommended disengagement, and that my response was "get lost".

It is utterly disgraceful that SMcCandlish continues to hound me at all, but it disgustingly despicable for him to come here and make a demonstrably false accusation that I have been hounding him.

I hope that some restraint will be placed on this barrage of malicious falsehoods from SMcCandlish. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal: interaction ban and kick to Arbcom

Well, this seems like a thread which some editors won't let die, and the matter of unwelcome private communication off-wiki is one which by its nature can't be settled by the community. To put it to rest I propose: that BrownHairedGirl and SMcCandlish are mutually interaction banned, unless and until one of them files a case request with the Arbitration Committee to examine the alleged off-wiki communication and determine an appropriate course of action. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 00:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support SMcCandlish has acted in a despicable manner around the WP:X3 discussion but BHG is inflaming things. ADMINACCT and ArbComm was raised. Legacypac (talk) 00:31, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Legacypac: AFAICS, the only allegation against me which falls within the scope of WP:ADMINACCT is that SMcCandlish initially approached me with a query about an RFC close, which is an admin action. Here is that discussion is in full, including my close of it.

In summary, I responded fulsomely and civilly until I was accused of bad faith, when I closed the discussion. Where is the failure of ADMINACCT in that? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:41, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I never suggested there was a failure in ADMINACCT only that it was raised, I think over in the TTH subthread. Let him/it file an ArbComm case rather than continue ranting. Legacypac (talk) 02:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support No-brainer. This has to go to ArbCom now, since both parties are accusing each other of emailing the other after this was closed. No other choice. Black Kite (talk) 00:43, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support some form of IBAN ARBCOM - Ivanvector's point is completely spot on. Given the inability for it to be settled and now accusations we can't examine ourselves, I'd rather we didn't just sit at an IBAN but had it progressed to resolve the issue properly - even if they just reformalise the IBAN. Nosebagbear (talk) 00:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd considered it before my initial comment, and have rethought post @Cullen328: - who makes excellent points as regards the fairness of the 2-way proposed IBAN. I factored in, to a degree, wanting to just make it more practical while ARBCOM was processing off-wiki content. Given SMc's behaviour below, regardless of his behaviour elsewhere, I'd be inclined now to give him a full 1-way IBAN and just ask @BrownHairedGirl: to be extremely careful in areas both might be, given evidence is now significantly 1-sided. Nosebagbear (talk) 08:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support Yes. Let's. FFS, grow up. Both of you. DlohCierekim 00:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  @BrownHairedGirl: Please. Don't send it to me. Please send it to ArbCom.

  @SMcCandlish: I think maybe BrownHairedGirl wants you out of her life and away from her userspace. Ya think? DlohCierekim 09:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose The evidence indicates to me that SMcCandlish is the harasser and BrownHairedGirl is the victim of the harassment. A mutual interaction ban is the wrong solution. Counterproductive. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Cullen328: I haven't !voted yet, but I'm inclined to agree with you: a mutual IBAN normally suggests that there's a two-sided feud that requires a two-sided sanction, and it does feel wrong to invoke such a thing when the situation is alleged one-sided harassment. But, it seems like the only way to decisively settle this issue, given the existence of off-wiki evidence, is through ArbCom, and the intent of this proposal seems to be a temporary, short-term, unprejudiced, full stop on any and all problematic interactions, pending the advancement to that venue, at which point it will automatically expire. If @BrownHairedGirl: is truly the victim, surely she wants her grievances heard and rectified in the only forum available to her, and would be fine with a straight IBAN in the meantime. Based on her comments here, she seems to be okay with it. So, I'm leaning towards supporting, but for the same reasons you share here. Thoughts? BHG, are you willing and intent on taking this to ArbCom? ~Swarm~ {talk} 05:44, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Swarm:. All I want is for this shitstorm to stop. That is all I have sought since 00:47, 18 March 2019‎.

I would very much welcome an Iban, preferably a complete one rather than the limited version which SmokeyJoe proposed.

I have no desire at all to get caught in the massive timesink of an arbcom case. I have complete confidence that the evidence I can present demonstrates how I have bizarrely been harassed by someone who falsely accuses me of harassment and many other things ... but weeks of diff-farming while SMcCandlish continues to spout more lies until they are disproven one by one is no fun at all. So I will not be opening an arbcom case, and if the next step in this nonsense is for that, then I will reconsider whether I want any to participate any further in Wikipedia.

I tried at 00:47, 18 March 2019‎ to WP:DISENGAGE with an uncivil, editor who was taking advantage of ADNINACCT to personally disparage me. I am already utterly sick of this.

It is already surreal that having opened a discussion here about 30 hours ago to try to uphold my attempts to WP:DISENGAGE, I am still being dragged back in as my good name is further traduced. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:07, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Swarm, if BrownHairedGirl is the victim of harassment here (as I believe based on the evidence I have seen so far, but I suppose I could be wrong) then such an interaction ban is terribly unfair to her and draws out this bizarre drama for weeks or months to come, as ArbCom ponderously considers the evidence, and the inevitable bafflegab walls of text trying to discredit her. What is needed right now is an uninvolved adminstrator who will examine the evidence and take decisive action promptly. I certainly do not want to lose BrownHairedGirl from this project which seems to be a real possibility at this point after the aggression she has been subjected to. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@Cullen328: Your thoughts on a one-way Iban where SMC is banned from interacting with BHG? If SMC is the problem here, that might solve things, and perhaps more eloquently and justly than a 2-way. Regardless, I suspect the issue has become too complex for a single admin to swoop in and solve things – some kind consensus is needed, else its gonna go to ARBCOM (which would be drawn out, and painful..."In its belly, you will find a new definition of pain and suffering as you are slowly digested over a… thousand years"). Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 09:36, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Evidence. I have a screenshot of my mail index of the entire email chain. I think that it is sufficient to conform that I respected the interaction ban, apart from relying "get lost" to SMcCandlish's breach of it.

Please will all those supporting action against me read it?

@Ivanvector, @Legacypac, @Nosebagbear, @Dlohcierekim: I would email it to you directly, but the on-=wiki email interface doesn't take attachments. However if you email me, I will send the screenshot by return. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:24, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl - I highly recommend that you keep this evidence for ArbCom only, and that you don't share it openly with others. One reason is that such emails and information could contain some personal identifiable information belonging to SMcCandlish that he did not disclose publicly on Wikipedia, and sharing screenshots of this off-wiki evidence could inadvertently violate Wikipedia's policy on outing. Once it's shared, it can't be taken back... and this could put you under much more hot water if you're not extremely careful... Please be mindful, take all of this into thought, and make good choices. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, :Oshwah. I will refrain from sending full emails other than to arbcom. The screenshot is a narrow excerpt containing only the index to my email inbox, which includes the full sequence of emails since I BCC to myself every email I send. Each entry contains only the name of each user, the first ~5 words of the mail, and the time. No email address or other personal info. My email name is "BrownHairedGirl", @SMcCandlish's is "Stanton McCandlish", exactly as displayed on his userpage.

So I'm still happy to send that clipped screenshot. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:52, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl - Okay, good. You appear to have looked carefully over this, double-checked, and made sure that nothing would be disclosed that shouldn't be, so I'll just respond here with, "be careful". :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• (newer bolded !vote below) Support limited interaction. Each is limited to 1000 characters per week, posted to or about or on the other's usertalk pages. BHG is excessively prone to prickliness and an inability to be talked into calm, and SMC suffers chronic abrasive verbosity. Apart from these little flare ups on isolate lines of disagreement, both are usually respectable, professional, and productive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:33, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• @SmokeyJoe, please can you revise that 1000 characters per week to zero?

Ever since I closed the discussion on my talk and banned SMcC from my talk[108], I have been trying to get his to zero, but have had to cope with a SMcCandlish shitstorm in 5 different places: two of my talk pages, McCandlish's lies here in response to my request that he disengage, his bogus allegations on WP:AN, and emails. So please, please, please, please: zero.

And yes, I am prickly when accused of bad faith. For personal reasons, I have a very low tolerance threshold for that. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:00, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I daresay, you weren't as nearly annoyed when he was only up to 1000 characters. To you. About you. Comments on your talks pages. Email should definitely be included. Yes, he needs to stop. If you count his characters, how many weeks would it add up to? If SMC wants to link his version of a better version of the Portals RfC for you to read, I should be allowed to do that, 100 characters? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Okay, enough. Both of you. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 05:17, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. BHG's responses in here seem to have no sense of the actual flow of time. But whatever. No, no one needs a block. Yes, a mutual i-ban is acceptable to me; however, since we're both active at CfD, I would suggest that the i-ban be loose enough to respond not in a personalized manner to each others' proposals there. I was already going for WP:SHUN, i.e. a voluntary i-ban. However, I asked BHG to stop sending me hostile e-mail over 15 hours ago. Then these AN* threads closed, about 14 hours ago if I'm counting right. That's two signals to BHG to just drop it. But no. I got more hostile e-mail from BHG only 7 hours ago (1:56 Pacific Time) and reported that here, and BHG is right back at the aspersion-casting here again (see below), not sticking to facts but hypothesizing inappropriately about motives and personality. By contrast, you'll note that I'm not making any ad hominem commentary of any kind, just laying out facts and their timeline. If BHG is "prickly about being accused of bad faith" she needs to stop doing it to others over and over and over again. It's really annoying. Having criticized one of her closes, and provided feedback on a draft, isn't bad faith nor an accusation of bad faith. The simple fact of the matter is I supplied some draft-RfC feedback in quick succession without noticing BHG was reverting it (much less that she'd "banned" me from her talk page). She repeatedly insisted I take that RfC feedback to her talk page after her "ban". After tricking me into posting it there in "violation" of her preferences, which I had not seen yet since it was just in an edit summary (see WP:REVTALK) she opened this bogus ANI report. It's blatant entrapment and an abuse of process. Frankly, I have no more time for this nonsense. Busy week. I may be absent for most of a day or more.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:25, 19 March 2019 (UTC) For god's sake, SMcCandlish, cut the lies and the shit-stirring. What is wrong with you?+ You write here I got more hostile e-mail from BHG only 7 hours ago (1:56 Pacific Time) and reported that here As noted elsewhere, my two word email to you said simply in full "get lost". It was timestamped 20:56 UTC, and it was in response to a lengthy email from you timpestamped 12:42 UTC, i.e 5 hours after the interaction ban imposed here. So at 12:42, you broke the interaction ban, but yet at 22:56 you[109] falsely accusing me of offline harassment of another editor, and now you repeat that lie. That can all be verified if it does go to Arbcom, so I have no idea why you continue to try to smear me by denying it. What is wrong with you? And the rest of it is all about you coming to my talkpage, being rude and alleging bad faith on my part, and then refusing to respect my request to get off my talkpage. What is wrong with you? You initiated the email correspondence, I have sent precisely one reply to each of your emails. It is bizarre for you to accuse me of "harassment" for replying to email you sent me, and it is utterly malicious to repeatedly misrepresent at ANI a set of communications off-wiki which you initiated and which cannot be verified at ANI. What is wrong with you? Your claim of "entrapment" is yet more malicious nonsense. You chose not follow the two pings in the two posts in which I told you our conversation was closed. You chose to regard my note about the existence of page as invitation to post there. You chose to ignore the instructions of the page you posted on, which made it clear that you were not part of that process. And they you came back to my talkpage, and just below the closed section in which I banned you posted again, in defiance of that notice. What is wrong with you? You posted a long rant on WP:AN in which you falsely accused me of multiple sins, including the preposterous "Gaming the consensus-building process" by excluding you from private conversation on my usertalk. You seem to think that you have some absolute right to post on my talkpage, and that a restricted-group but entirely above-board, on-wiki conversation on my talk about possible paths to consensus for a major dispute which I explicitly labelled as an attempt to put all options on the table is some huge breach of policy and of admin responsibilities. This entire shitstorm you have created is outrageous. I know that lies left unchallenged risk becoming accepted, but am utterly fed up with having to spend my time producing the evidence to counter your serial fabrications and your maliciously false allegations. What on earth is wrong with you? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Support Two-way interaction ban per Ivanvector. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 05:39, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support IBAN, as support by both involved. Apply it ASAP. It must include referring to the other, talking about each other. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: I don't think it's really going to matter all that much, but you have two bolded !votes here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 10:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC) fixed SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:53, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support per BHG's comments. If this IBAN turns out to be indef pending an Arbcom case that never happens, that is a far superior alternative to losing one of the most valuable editors this project is privileged to have. Implement ASAP. ~Swarm~ {talk} 06:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  I don't recall anyone talking about quitting; BHG's just angry at me (for entirely imaginary "maliciousness"). For my part, I just don't have any more patience for this silly game playing and drama mongering; it's unseemly. Neither of these are WP:HIGHMAINT "I'm gonna quit Wikipedia" things, just passing irritations that mutually appear crystal clear on one side and inexplicable on the other. [sigh] I would be open to sorting that out calmly, or just agreeing to drop it with zero further recriminations in either direction, but that's obviously not happening any time soon if at all. It can't if one side insists on assuming malice, and the other is assuming nothing but a bad mood leading to dispute-escalation behavior. I don't think even that's "malicious", it's just unconstructive and un-admin-worthy. I even trust that BHG will realize this when her irritation fades, and not repeat it in her next dispute with someone else.

  I'll try to pay more attention to the little "you have notices" icon at page top (easier said than done on a monitor this size). It's not like I would have intentionally kept posting to the draft RfC page if I'd noticed I'd been reverted at it; I didn't notice until I decided to re-arrange the material in section-number order instead of policy-priority order, only to find it was all reverted, with an edit summary of 'which part of "If other editors who wish to express views on the draft, please comment at User talk:BrownHairedGirl" was unclear to you???'.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I have no desire at all to get caught in the massive timesink of an arbcom case. I have complete confidence that the evidence I can present demonstrates how I have bizarrely been harassed by someone who falsely accuses me of harassment and many other things ... but weeks of diff-farming while SMcCandlish continues to spout more lies until they are disproven one by one is no fun at all. So I will not be opening an arbcom case, and if the next step in this nonsense is for that, then I will reconsider whether I want any to participate any further in Wikipedia. — BrownHairedGirl --~Swarm~ {talk} 07:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support. I'm uncertain of the fairness of a two-way interaction ban. However, the community cannot examine all of the relevant evidence, and so pending an ARBCOM case I think this is necessary to minimize disruption. The IBAN should be complete, with the only exception being arbitration pages; the looser IBAN proposed above is much too complicated to be worthwhile. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  There's nothing complicated about "it's okay to support or oppose in a CfD, RfC, etc., opened by the other party". Part of the erstwhile close above is an instruction to do just that when the draft RfC at the heart of this is no longer a draft. Anyway, I'm going to bed and hopefully this is just the end of it. I'm not sure when I'll get back around here given what's on my plate off-site in the upcoming days.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Cullen328. This should immediately go to ARBCOM. This has grown bitter and the community is at wits end. There is too much for the community to fix here, including private communications. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 07:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

BHG is not keen on the idea of initiating the draconian month(s) long public process that is an Arbcom case, and surely anyone can understand that. If a third party wishes to start one on her behalf, fair, but short of that, surely this is better than no solution. ~Swarm~ {talk} 07:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

BHG's above comments certainly make me reconsider. The project shouldn't lose a talented editor like her, and I agree that ARBCOM is a painful process. With that being said, if it doesn't go to Arbcom, I'm not sure if an interaction ban is gonna solve things long term. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 09:36, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• I also don't really like the idea of a 2-way ban, per Cullen's comments. But as BHG herself is happy with the idea, I'll Support it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  To clarify, that's support the IBAN but then no need for Arbcom. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:03, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  Pretty much agree with Iridescent's comments below, too. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  No, I'm switching to Oppose a 2-way ban. It's becoming increasingly clear who's in the wrong here and not being honest, and BHG should not be subject to any bans - she can voluntarily keep away from SMC, but that's up to her. In short, Iridescent has it just about right. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Reluctant support. I take dim view of IBANs typically; I feel that if an editor can't find a way to comport themselves with regard to any one editor, their problems are unlikely to be addressed long term merely by isolating them from that person--and indeed, many IBANs involve one or more parties who ultimately go on to be regularly disruptive. In short, IBANs are the community's single most common (and probably problematic) means of kicking the can down the road. In this particular case, I am further concerned by the fact that, having reviewed the comments and links here, and crediting both sides with good faith in their assertions, there is definitely one side who looks more aggressive in pushing and maintaining the conflict here, which makes a two-way ban not 100% palatable.

That said, this should go to ArbCom, and I wish we had an admin here willing to step up and shephard it there in a neutral way; not only will ArbCom have the tools necessary to discretely inquire into the email exchanges, but they will also be more systematic in deconstructing the exact timeline/sequence of events across multiple spaces and services. In short, they can arrive at actual outcomes, whereas the crossfire between the parties here accomplishes nothing. And yet it is clearly not going to stop here, short of a formal ban. We could also add language to the close stating that this is meant to last until any ArbCom resolution of the conflict between the two and that the committee can undertake to decide whether the IBAN should be maintained, modified, or dissolved following the case. Snow ^{let's rap} 07:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Reluctant support I share previously expressed concerns about (a) effectiveness of IBANs in general, and (b) the justness of a 2-way IBAN in this instance. Furthermore, since the two editors share significant interest in some hotly-debated areas (CfDs, policy-crafting, and especially the current debate over Portals), I fear that if an IBAN is imposed admins will soon be grappling with the question of whether certain responses in a discussion (or, just the cumulative volume of responses) violated the IBAN or not. Willing to give it a try though because informal measures, lacking teeth, are certainly not working and because the two editors accept the remedy. Abecedare (talk) 08:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - I've notified Arbcom about this case via email, with CCs to both users. ~Swarm~ {talk} 08:21, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Good call, just so they have a heads up and are aware of this ANI discussion and what may (or may not) be requested at ArbCom somewhat soon... ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. We don't impose bans on people for being the recipients of harassment. One or the other of BHG or SMC is clearly lying here, and given the increasingly fantastic excuses ("I can't see the "new messages" notification on my monitor so I wasn't aware I'd been asked to stop", "I wasn't aware that it might annoy other editors if I made major changes in their userspace without asking"…) it's fairly clear which it is. If SMC isn't willing to let this drop, then punt it up to Arbcom, but imposing a topic ban on the victim in the meantime for complaining about harassment would be wilfully perverse. ‑ Iridescent 09:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose any action and suggest we let the issue quietly die. I don't think interaction bans are effective, usually leading to later blocks, bans, and squabbling. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:39, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, I have read, at great length, the entire chain of discussion, and the whole thing is a bit of a mountain made out of a molehill. Both SMc and BHG have taken the most negative possible slant possible on various things each has said to the other and each post of their discussion spiralled further into "he said she said" and compounded this further. I don't think an interaction ban is really warranted, although SMc does need to let this particular issue lie and trust that someone else will make any objections to the RFC that he wants to make if they are sound objections. I don't, though, see why one spat should mean BHG and SMc should be banned from ever commenting on anything the other does. IBANS are for long-term chronic differences that cannot be resolved any other way short of blocking. I don't think this one disagreement amounts to that, and I can't imagine Arbcom would take much in the way of actual action at this point in time. I note, though, that anyone opposing a two-way IBAN because "it wouldn't be fair to BHG" has missed the point that BHG herself is in favour of one. Fish+Karate 14:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Alternative proposal-- 1 week block followed by mutual IBAN

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• Support Despite the significant value of each's contribs, the disruption is just too much and too on-going. Need to wake them both up. Whatever has gone before, neither sees the need to drop the poor, battered stick. DlohCierekim 00:52, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. I'm not taking sides, but given the uncheckable (for us) nature of the e-mail accusations, if one of them is telling the truth and the other is lying, one may not actually have done anything wrong. Black Kite (talk) 01:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Per Black Kite. Whichever one is telling the truth hasn't done anything wrong since the close. Also, give whichever one isn't telling the truth time to recheck timestamps and apologize. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
  • @Floquenbeam and @Black Kite, if either or both of you would like to review the emails, I will be happy to send them to you promptly in the most fulsome format I can manage. (I use MsMail for Win10, on a Gmail account). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
    • @BrownHairedGirl: I wouldn't be able to review them until tomorrow, and I'm not sure I'm the best person for the task (I've had my beefs with both of you; nothing earth shattering, but whoever disagreed could claim I was biased and then we'd just go 'round again). I'm not sure admins can actually do anything with emailed evidence anyway. You might forward to Arbcom? --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:17, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose Punishing the harasser and the victim is wrong. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:13, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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Why block me?

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These proposals for a block on me are shocking and hurtful. I have been pursued by an aggressive bully, accused of lots of bogus things .. and all I have tried is to break off dialogue while countering the public falsehoods.

1. This started with a SMcCandlish posting[110] on my talk to question a close, accusing me of "scare someone into silence" because I commended consensus-building
2. I responded fulsomely and civilly, but SMcCandlish needled and insulted, until I realised that dialogue was futile, so I ended the discusison[111] and banned him from my talk.[112]
3. I then discovered that SMcCandlish was busy spamming a private page of mine despoite a heading at the top saying not to, so I reverted that, and he then reposted it on my talk. I reverted that too
4. I took it to ANI asking nothing other than that he desist; SMcCandlish took it to AN, and then he started emailing me. Stupidly, I did reply twice by email.
5. This morning both the AN and and ANI discussions were closed with a recommendation to disengage, which I welcomed. It is exactly what I had been seeking from the outset.
6. Nonetheless, SMcCandlish posted again below the closed discussion
7. SMcCandlish emailed me 5 hours after the disengagement was recommend here. I replied with two word "get lost"
8. Yet SMcCandlish falsely accuses me of harassing him

This is appalling. I have not followed SMcCandlish around talk pages. I have not visited his talk page. I have no invited him to my talk pages. I have not initiated email correspondence. I respected the close of the discussion here until a new set of allegations were made against me. I respected the interaction ban.

And now I am being falsely accused of breaching the interaction ban. If any admins are willing to examine the emails to verify what I have asserted, I will send the entire set. It will take about two minutes to check the timestamps and verify that I am telling the truth.

So why exactly am I being threatened with a block? Everyone here wants disengagement, and that is what I have been trying to do throughout. It's why I opened this ANI discussion in the first place.

I feel really fed up. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

BrownHairedGirl - For what it's worth, the proposal to block you is very far from reaching any kind of consensus (as of the time of this writing) withdrawn. It's frustrating for you to see such a proposal and I completely understand that... just don't let it overly distract you or get underneath your skin, and keep yourself focused on the primary goals of Wikipedia and doing the things you enjoy here, and everything will be okay - one way or another. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:14, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: This is not an endorsement of anyone's behaviour but if SMC's actions are affecting you this badly, take time off Wikipedia instead of batting away at the wound. This is a general approach to any issues on Wikipedia honestly, it's just an online community and should not affect you to the point that you have to keep retaliating. Just my two cents. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 05:38, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

True in most cases, but when the issue is alleged bullying and harassment, on what is supposed to be an academic project of collegial civility, respect and collaboration steeped in good faith, "take some time off" is not a particularly constructive solution. I can think of several damaging real-world parallels that should not be encouraged. ~Swarm~ {talk} 05:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

We cannot expect no conflict in a place where collaboration is the principle itself - and at a certain point, things will get ugly. No one is encouraging any parallel, sometimes it's better to focus your efforts on places which require them, shutting out aspects you don't like is necessary, and escalating it at every step will simply make the entire situation worse. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 05:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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Serial Number 54129 removing valid warnings on anon talk page

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The anon reverted a valid an edit by a new anon. I welcomed the new anon and after reading the notice placed a request that the IPV6 anon provide edit summaries.

• 22:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC) "Notice: Not using edit summary on Prime Minister of Canada. (TW)"

That's when the protection started.

1. 22:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC) "Undid revision 888401889 by Walter Görlitz (talk) Good; carry on."
2. 22:17, 18 March 2019 (UTC) "Undid revision 888401402 by Walter Görlitz (talk) I'm afraid you don't get to edit war on this page; be mindful."

I started discussing, but go no answers.

1. 22:16, 18 March 2019 (UTC) "/* Seriously */ new section"
2. 22:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC) "R"
3. 22:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC) "/* Seriously */"

Is there any reason this anon gets protection from editors? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

This is simply Wikipedia:Etiquette. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• ANI? Really??? EEng 22:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@EEng: I would be happy to move it elsewhere. Where would you suggest? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The bit bucket. You could just let it go. EEng 22:51, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Serial Number 54129: please do not remove warnings from another user's talk page, regardless of how valid the warning is (I have no opinion on that matter). ansh666 22:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  @Bbb23: thanks for trying to close this, but the anon's edits are only peripheral to Walter's complaint. ansh666 22:53, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  Walter's complaint is a waste of time.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:54, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

  Then close it again with a summary that actually addresses it... ansh666 22:57, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• This "dispute" is so Wikipedian.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

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• This is so weird. Ansh is obviously right. One should never delete another's comments, unless in specific situations prescribed by the relevant policy. DTTR is not a violation, and as a "social" offense, it's relatively minor. Deleting others' comments, on the other hand, is a genuine policy violation that can get you into hot water. Aggressively edit warring over it makes it even worse. Surely Serial Number knows this, and was willing to risk getting blocked over it (not saying I would block, just that it is technically blockable). Then, when Walter comes here with a perfectly valid report that they're being treated inappropriately, he gets treated like the bad guy? Why does this IP need such hardheaded protection from being templated? They even have a warning box preemptively threatening users who would template them, that seems to be of dubious appropriateness. Maybe I'm missing something. ~Swarm~ {talk} 23:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • As I mentioned at Walter Gorlitz's talkpage, I'm having a hard time finding a grievous, disruptive policy violation worth bringing here in a small edit-war over a template for not using edit summaries. Is this what we need to bring to ANI? 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 takes a lot of warnings from editors who see an IP and immediately template, that's why the notice is there at the top of the page. Editors, registered or not, get sloppy sometimes and don't use edit summaries. All that justifies an edit-war and ANI? Acroterion (talk) 23:53, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
    • I take no issue with this assessment, just with the disproportionate reaction (Walter being condemned, where he technically didn't do anything wrong, while simultaneously turning a blind eye to Serial's violations). It may be a petty issue, but I'm sympathetic towards Walter, who I don't feel was treated particularly fairly. Usually DTTR situations are not meant with summary deletion and edit warring, so I'm wondering what the big deal is with this IP, who is surely capable of responding to or removing templated messages at their own discretion. ~Swarm~ {talk} 00:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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• I'm not sure why my attempt to provide a constructive dissenting opinion was force-closed with another "waste of time" closing statement. The original close already did that, and I was making a point that I felt the response Walter received was a bit one-sided and not entirely fair. To have a respectful dissent to a close immediately shut down, with a closing statement that does nothing but flatly restate the closing statement that is being disagreed with, is a bit offensive and absurd. I have the time to comment on this, and I don't need a closer to tell me I am wasting my time by trying to make educational policy points and constructive criticism. If this is such a petty, unimportant issue, then there should not be these aggressive and repeated attempts to forcibly suppress commentary. That, to me, suggests not that the complaint is mundane and unimportant, but that tensions are far too high and people are acting without calmness and restraint in attempting to stifle a reasonable complaint. ~Swarm~ {talk} 01:21, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree, this certainly was a valid complaint by Walter. No comment on whether the initial posting of the template was appropriate or not. Serial Number 54129‎ simply does not have the authority to remove something from another editor's talk page and edit-warring only makes matters worse. The only person who should be removing the template from the talk page is the IP user and if he/she has a problem with Walter they can bring forth the proper complaint, there is no reason for someone else to be acting on their behalf.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• JESUS CHRIST, JOSEPH, MARY AND ALL THE SAINTS AND APOSTLES, Walter shouldn't have templated a regular (even if it's an IP regular), and he should have realized that, at latest, when SN 4129 removed the message. But after Walter restored the message, SN54129 probably should have left it be (possibly adding a soothing counter-message of his own). So everybody did something inadvisable. OK? Now stop it. EEng 02:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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Oh, dear. The cobra ate your kittens, ok? DlohCierekim

• Contentiously force-closing good faith meta-commentary on the contentious force-closure of good faith meta-commentary on a contentious force-closure. Well played. Credit where it's due, I do love a good absurdist comedy. Very well, I'll take my measured views, balanced responses, and objective considerations of policy somewhere that they won't evoke some bizarre level of hostility and outrage. This can be closed, again, since that's apparently what we're doing here for some reason. ~Swarm~ {talk} 05:24, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• What EEng said, though Swarm has a point. DlohCierekim 10:02, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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LTA cross-wiki targeted harassment - global rangeblock needed

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meta:Special:CentralAuth/Slursbawls
meta:Special:CentralAuth/Allanpooh
meta:Special:CentralAuth/Liremoles
meta:Special:CentralAuth/Osmanliked
and apparently forgot to log in here

Same behavior as before. Unless there is a global rangeblock, theoretically this user can continue harassing me forever. Cross-wiki abuse in this fashion seems like a particularly exploitable loophole that hasn't been much addressed. Might be someone who got themselves indeffed here previously. Would CU/LTA page be necessary? Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 00:15, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

You need to go to m:SRG to report cross-wiki abuse. Unfortunately, English Wikipedia admins can't do anything about it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:31, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: Should I file a global steward CU request first? Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 00:43, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

That's probably not necessary. Checkusers and stewards usually do that automatically when it's necessary. I didn't realize how busy the checkusers were until I became one. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:55, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, the (currently blocked) range for our favourite ranting idiot over here is 99.203.28.0/23 - which unfortunately is Sprint (though it does seem to have had some effect here, so...). Black Kite (talk) 01:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I thought I was your favorite ranting idiot :-( Leviv ich 03:32, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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Large scale vandalism being committed on Wikipedia:Requested articles/Arts and entertainment since 04:43, 14 March 2019

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Not sure who I should report this problem since it is very unusual. It appears that some person(s) is/are rapidly creating new accounts for the express purpose of creating mischief on Wikipedia:Requested articles/Arts and entertainment and possibly other pages. Many of the accounts are being used for just one or two edits before being abandon for a new account, so a simple editing block on these accounts will not stop this behavior. Someone will monitor this page for at least a few days. Below is a list of just some of the suspicious contributors:

• JIANGJESSIE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• CandixeT (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Keyaaaaa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Alba0521 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Coey0412 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Hojichamilktea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Anineaaa9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 白月行 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Xyao6687 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• MayMay26 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Xyao6687 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• XIUWEN LING (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ruonanpumky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GivemeAnamePlz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is just a small sample since there are probably ~dozen or so user accounts that not list above that can be found in the history page for Wikipedia:Requested articles/Arts and entertainment that are following the same pattern with more being created every day. Not sure who has the administrative power to find out the true source of this vandalism and shut it down since this distraction interferes with legitimate requests. Thank you in advance. -- 108.71.214.235 (talk) 03:53, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I've only gone through some of the listed accounts above, but so far it looks like the users are crossing suggested article items off the list to say "I'm going to write this article", followed by attempts to actually do so. All of the attempts I've seen so far show the user(s) starting to try and write something in a draft or their sandbox page, but then stop part-way and without finishing or publishing anything. I would suggest undoing the edits crossing out the items from the list if the article wasn't written and saved to the mainspace. So far, however, these seem like good faith edits and attempts to write an article, not something that sticks out at me as being vandalism or bad-faith disruption or abuse. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 04:07, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

It appears this may be for an educational project, which might explain why all the accounts were registered near the same time and all chose a topic off a list to write about. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 04:11, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't see anything bad-faith here... ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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Need more eyeballs – Amerocentric disruption from Greater Chicago

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A new user and an IP range from Greater Chicago have been changing some statements in music articles to have the opposite meaning, without any supporting references. The IPs have been doing this stuff for a couple of months, but today the username Honethefield98 was registered to revert back to the IP versions.

The IP range is Special:Contributions/2601:243:400:F535:0:0:0:0/64. Examples of disruption include:

• Making rock 'n' roll start in the 1940s instead of the 1950s
• Making heavy metal originate from the US instead of the UK
• Reducing the origin of thrash metal to just the US
• Removing the UK as a founding location for industrial rock
• Deciding that indie rock started in the US
• That "America invented punk"

Apparently, Honethefield98 is angered by seeing his favorite music genres represented as having originated overseas. His Amerocentric stance is not supported by the writings of music journalists and musicologists. Combined with the IPs, he is past 3RR now. I'm signing off for the night, so I hope someone can look at this mess and figure out what to do. Binksternet (talk) 07:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

What are you even talking about here? YOU are angry that your favorite music genres didn’t originate in the UK or elsewhere. Punk started at CBGB nightclub, and was pioneered by The Ramones and Iggy and the Stooges. The US invented punk, it is safe to say. The Punk Rock Wikipedia article has been appropriately written to say so. Indie rock was a term that is interchangeable with Alternative Rock, describing the same type of music that was popular and arose in both countries throughout the 80s. Their pages say this. I’m sorry if I removed the UK as a founding location for industrial, I meant to add the US because the article itself mentions Chicago as an originating location but failed to include the US in its “country of origin” section. Thrash Metal was a sub-genre started in the US. I edited the Heavy Metal section to include the US, as the History section of that particular page explicitly mentions a vast array of originating American acts and genres. Rock ‘n’ Roll first arose in the late-1940s. All of these edits you’re taking issue with are literally just expansions on what people have already written. I’m not stating facts or statistics that would need to be backed up by sources. You are the one getting mad at me for being “Amerocentric”...yes, I am literally talking about American musical history on an American Popular Music page. How do you honestly think you have an argument here? My behavior wasn’t contrarian or aggressive. I expanded upon what the article already said and deleted incorrect information that 1) wasn’t true and 2) didn’t bother to talk about the American involvement of invented a certain popular music genre on an “American popular music” page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Honethefield98 (talk • contribs) 07:36, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Swarm beat me to it, but it's clear that there's POV pushing and other disruptive editing that's occurring by this user. The account has been blocked for 31 hours indefinitely. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Blocked indef - Per OP. The 31 hour block was actually a mistake, and I have indeffed, per my original intent. Glad to see Oshwah agrees with my call here. The user is free to appeal and offer amends, via the normal unblock process. ~Swarm~ {talk} 07:50, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Swarm - Ah, perfect. I thought that an indef block was more appropriate, but I didn't bother to ask about it. ;-) I agree that the user needs to go through an unblock appeal or unblock request before being allowed to edit again (hence the indefinite block). There's too many past issues (edit warring, neutral point of view violations, addition of unsourced content, etc) as well as uncivil messages that he/she left Binksternet on his/her user talk page. Action was definitely needed in order to prevent additional disruption to the project. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:56, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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Camps Maria and Plastiquedoll12

Can someone enlighten me on the edits of

• Camps Maria and
• Plastiquedoll12

They seem to be keeping stats in their userpage, and (for Camps Maria) zero edits outside of that. The (minimal) edits that Plastiquedoll12 does outside of the userspaces of the two accounts seems to give the suggestion that the stats are related to RuPaul's Drag Race, mostly Season 11, but I then fail to see a (direct) connection between the edits performed on the userspaces and on the articles.

I've tried to ask both editors what they were doing 2 weeks ago, but neither have responded thus far. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I've seen this before on other accounts and user pages, too. To be honest, I'm not completely sure. I just moved on and called them "test edits" in my mind... ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Hmmm thats weird, I've seen those types of edits before, and with a variety of users. Boggles me as to...what or why, not sure if its socking or what. In the past I've just tagged it for U5 WP:NOTWEBHOST speedy deletion, which is what I have done for these userpages at the moment. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 08:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@Oshwah and CaptainEek: I was hovering between the 'test edits' and 'notwebhost' type as well (they did not really bother me, except that they hog an edit filter). Lets see what happens next ... --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:17, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Beetstra - Indeed. With the accounts that I saw that had this same kind of user page, I didn't see much happen beyond the creation of the tables. Some did update them later (if they were sports scores, or something else that needed such), but other than that... I don't remember seeing anything else happen. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:20, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I think I've blocked this person before, but – if I have – I don't remember who it is. Anyway, the following are  Confirmed to each other: Camps Maria, Idol Academy, DanceSchool2019, Plastiquedoll12, The Next Drag Superstar, Lolitadragracerace. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:42, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

NinjaRobotPirate - Oh wow... thank you. That puts things into perspective... I'm still puzzled as to what these pages are even for? Is anyone opposed to me (or someone else) deleting them per U5? ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:44, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I have been considering whether this is some game between some of the fans of this Drag Race. As the ratings come out they (sometimes) update the pages itself, and for the rest play their own game. That would certainly qualify this material for U5. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I found one that was blocked: Renten12 (talk · contribs). Some others: Unrulydragbrunch (talk · contribs), Birdsofpreyshowdc (talk · contribs), Dragbingo2 (talk · contribs), Dontitodragbrunch (talk · contribs), Christianloera20 (talk · contribs). For some reason, these "contestant progress" socks trip filter 643. I still haven't found any that I personally blocked. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:18, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

NinjaRobotPirate - Interesting thought. I went ahead and U5'd the user pages of the accounts you listed that still had tables and information published. Worst case scenario, one of them will message me on my user talk page about it and explain. Restoring the material is easy to do if it turns out to be necessary. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 09:20, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: it appears to be tripping 643 (written to catch a sock that as one of their MOs is editing to win/brag about prizes in contests and hence links sometimes to that in their edit summaries) because they consistently edit sections that state ..'/* Contestant Progress for Season 1 */ ...' (at a rate that trips the filter). It is a false positive in the terms of what I try to catch, and, as I said, rather annoyingly clogging the filter. Hence my attempt to communicate (and now I am here after lack of communication) to figure out whether I should filter them out of the filter, or whether we should just 'block, delete and move on' as this is WP:NOTHERE material. Seen this communication, I think a future block-delete is the appropriate action. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:20, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Christianloera20/sandbox. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Missedge1/Archive may be related, too. One of the socks has a "contestant progress" user page. These accounts don't seem to be hurting anything, but it looks like a few of them have been blocked for WP:NOTHERE or sock puppetry. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:18, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I was sure that issues surrounding articles pertaining to the show had came up before and sure enough it seems I'm right [113]. I had a quick look and most of those editors seem to be in good standing although there was one or two who was blocked or an IP. And nothing struck me as particularly similar. But I can't be bothered investigating in detail, so does anyone know whether this could be related to previous problems? Nil Einne (talk) 11:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Danny84willis

• Danny84willis (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

This editor has been making incorrect edits to footballers' infobox statistics since August 2017. When I noticed in August last year that they weren't updating the timestamps, I dropped the editor a note, and followed this up the following month. @Mattythewhite also left a template message regarding that issue earlier this month. That, in itself, may seem like a small issue, but when you have been advised three times of the correct process and ignored it, that does suggest an issue.

However, this is compounded by the fact that the stats the editor adds are simply incorrect much of the time. The edit pattern is replicated on others, but taking as an example Diego Lainez, which is one of the editor's most frequented articles, their last two edits have added a goal and an appearance that don't exist. Lainez has scored a goal in the UEFA Europa League, but this still doesn't make sense as the appearance data would be wrong for 'all competitions' stats. I've have nevertheless explained to Danny84willis that the infobox stats should represent the domestic league only, as is stated at the bottom of the box and in the documentation.

The main issue, though, is communication. Several attempts to engage with the editor have been ignored and I don't see that situation changing. My last message was again ignored, and the editor seems oblivious to the reality that every one of their edits is subsequently either fixed or reverted by someone else. I am therefore asking for a block until the editor acknowleges the concerns of other editors and agrees to communicate. Thanks, Nzd (talk) 11:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

From what I see in the user's contributions, Danny84willis has made no edits other than problematic ones to articles. No talk, user talk, or Wikipedia edits - no attempts to communicate at all. I've indefinitely blocked the user for the repeated and persistent addition and modification of content without citing any reliable sources. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

POV pusher

• Balolay (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

This editor is obviously pushing a POV. he/she keeps adding images about Arab slavery into articles and adding "Islam" to Arab trade slavery removing responses to cristism of Muhammed and Islam(doesn't respect balance). I am going to start with each of his edits.

• 1-He has got reverted multiple times by two different editors after he added an image to the lead and yet he ask us to get consensus although he is the one who has to make a consensus. he added the image here he got reverted here and so on until I and him got blocked after he reported me immediately (I have reported him but I got no response so I got upset about it and editwar happened).
• 2-Slavery article after we discussed this and we got consensus about this issue which was that he don't put the Arab Slavery photo in the lead and he somehow agreed on that(see the talk page) he added the image again saying that Musicfan122 is has no responded to him although I did response to him and he didn't come back with anything just said (okay thanks for pointing that out)
• 3-adding the images of Arab slavery into different articles you a can see that from his contributions.
• 4- calling other editors edits "possible vandalism" he was calling this edit btw a possible vandalism and actually he made an edit war there with Ross Finlayson because of this simple issue he just don't want to listen. He also used Wikipedia as a source in another article here

I am totally disgusted with this type of behaviour can you do something about it? My English isn't so good to actually describe this type of behaviour and extensively explain how all of his edits like putting unbalanced images into the lead please see talk:Slavery as I explained to him that and he didn't response and again he reverted it's totally disrespectful. I feel like if I am being trolled (to be honest) by that revert BTW. I have made a promise to MSGJ that I am not going to edit in any slavery related articles and I did my promise BTW I am not topic banned or something I am by myself choose not to contribute in that area any time soon yet I can't actually stand this behaviour so I decided to ask you guys to help me..--SharabSalam (talk) 13:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history of the articles that you both have edited, I see a lot of edit warring and disruption between the two of you. You both are equally responsible and can be held accountable for resorting to edit warring instead of following Wikipedia's dispute resolution protocol and working things out. I saw that Balolay added an image from this topic area (Arab / Islamic slavery) onto the Photograph and Photography articles; I removed the image added to the photograph article, as it clearly isn't necessary at all. This unnecessary addition of images from this topic (as well as Balolay's edit history which looks to be almost exclusively within this topic area) shows that Balolay might have a single-purpose point-of-view and hence be a single-purpose account in regards to this topic area. Edit warring doesn't make anything better, however. If Balolay starts repeatedly reverting your edits to an article, you should stop reverting things back and instead file a report at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. I'm no expert in this topic area, but I can definitely say that things can't continue as they've been doing, and a deeper look into Balolay's edits may be warranted here. I'm happy to see that you've kept to your word and have stayed away from this topic area. Otherwise, I believe that the back-and-forth reverting and other issues would've just continued and resulted in more administrative action taken against the two of you. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:11, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

After I got blocked I did not edit war with him but it got my attention that he readded this image into the lead https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/888145117 totally ignoring me and saying that another editor hasn't showed up see the talk page and what we have reached too literally he still didn't come back with any response to my argument this is trolling and unhealthy for me--SharabSalam (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2019 (UTC)