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Administrative discussions

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive366#IBAN_appeal

(Initiated 23 days ago on 18 October 2024) This shouldn't have been archived by a bot without closure. Heartfox (talk) 02:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Heartfox: The page is archived by lowercase sigmabot III (talk · contribs), which gets its configuration frum the {{User:MiszaBot/config}} at the top of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. Crucially, this has the parameter |algo=old(7d) which means that any thread with no comments for seven days is eligible for archiving. At the time that the IBAN appeal thread was archived, the time was 00:00, 2 November 2024 - seven days back from that is 00:00, 26 October 2024, and the most recent comment to the thread concerned was made at 22:50, 25 October 2024 (UTC). This was more than seven days earlier: the archiving was carried out correctly. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:16, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

There was no need for this because archived threads can be closed too. It is not necessary for them to remain on noticeboard. Capitals00 (talk) 03:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. It is back in the archive, and hopefully someone can close it there. Heartfox (talk) 05:23, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

Wikipedia talk:Notability (species)#Proposal to adopt this guideline

(Initiated 92 days ago on 9 August 2024)

Wikipedia talk:Notability (species)#Proposal to adopt this guideline is WP:PROPOSAL for a new WP:SNG. The discussion currently stands at 503 comments from 78 editors or 1.8 tomats of text, so please accept the hot beverage of your choice ☕️ and settle in to read for a while. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:International Churches of Christ#RfC: Referring to International Churches of Christ (ICOC) as a cult in the lead

(Initiated 51 days ago on 19 September 2024) Legobot removed the RFC template on 20/10/2024. Discussoin has slowed. Can we please have a independent close. TarnishedPath^talk 23:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... I've read the whole discussion, but this one is complex enough that I need to digest it and reread it later now that I have a clear framing of all the issues in my mind. Ideally, I'll close this sometime this week. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. This issue has been going on in various discussions on the talk page for a while so there is no rush. TarnishedPath^talk 03:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 456#RfC: using photos of record labels from Discogs?

(Initiated 42 days ago on 28 September 2024) Discussion has died down and last vote was over a week ago. CNC (talk) 17:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 20:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 33 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Administrator recall#RfC: Should we add text prescribing just signatures, no discussion?

(Initiated 7 days ago on 3 November 2024) The amount of no !votes relative to yes !votes coupled with the several comments arguing it's premature suggests this should probably be SNOW closed. Sincerely, Dilettante 16:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Total
CfD	0	0	0	0	0
TfD	0	0	2	0	2
MfD	0	0	2	1	3
FfD	0	0	2	3	5
RfD	0	0	27	20	47
AfD	0	0	0	2	2

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 October 9#Template:Chapter disambiguation pages

(Initiated 42 days ago on 28 September 2024) No new comments in the last week or two. Frietjes (talk) 15:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Plastikspork. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 20:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Feminist art movement#proposing merge of Feminist art into Feminist art movement

(Initiated 298 days ago on 16 January 2024) It would be helpful for an uninvolved editor to close this discussion on a merge from Feminist art to Feminist art movement; there have been no new comments in more than 2 months. Klbrain (talk) 13:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Wikipedia and antisemitism#Proposal to merge to Criticism of Wikipedia

(Initiated 15 days ago on 26 October 2024) Request an admin or very confident closer sorts this out. Controversial subject, and although consensus may be found, it is also necessary to close an out of process AfD now started [[1]] that was started to confirm the merge discussion. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

It's a messy situation, but I argue that the most logical thing to do now is treat this as a deletion discussion, to be evaluated at AfD (ignoring the filer's framing as a merge discussion). — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 15:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of pholidotans#Merge to Manidae

(Initiated 9 days ago on 31 October 2024) Discussion only occurred on the day of proposal, and since then no further argument has been made. I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, so a close may be in order here. Wolverine X-eye ^{(talk to me)} 07:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to close this so soon. Merge proposals often drag on for months, and sometimes will receive comments from new participants only everything couple weeks. I think it's too early to say whether a consensus will emerge. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 14:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Compassionate727: OK, so what are you suggesting? Will the discussion remain open if no further comments are received in, say, two weeks? I also doubt that merge discussions take months to conclude. I think that such discussions should take no more than 20 days, unless it's of course, a very contentious topic, which is not the case here. Taken that you've shown interest in this request, you should be able to tell that no form of consensus has taken place, so I think you can let it sit for a while to see if additional comments come in before inevitably closing it. I mean, there is no use in continuing a discussion that hasn't progressed in weeks. Wolverine X-eye ^{(talk to me)} 15:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Wolverine X-eye, I don't think thats what they are saying. Like RfC's, any proposals should be opened for more than 7 days. This one has only been open for 4 days. This doesn't give enough time to get enough WP:CONSENSUS on the merge, even if everyone agreed to it. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 21:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Cowboygilbert: So what should I do now? Wait until the discussion is a week old? Wolverine X-eye ^{(talk to me)} 11:14, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Wolverine X-eye:, Yes. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 17:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Cowboygilbert: It's now 7 days... Wolverine X-eye ^{(talk to me)} 14:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Compassionate727: You still interested in closing this? Wolverine X-eye ^{(talk to me)} 04:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Report

Pages recently put under extended confirmed protection (50 out of 8836 total) () WATCH Page Protected Expiry Type Summary Admin Jennette McCurdy 2024-11-10 00:03 indefinite edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/BLP; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan User:MDanielsBot/AIVStop 2024-11-09 22:42 indefinite edit,move Prevent further disruptive editing; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Ọranyan 2024-11-09 21:19 2024-11-23 21:19 edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry: request at WP:RFPP Ymblanter Ada and Abere 2024-11-09 20:43 2024-12-09 20:43 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; requested at WP:RfPP Fathoms Below Political positions of JD Vance 2024-11-09 20:38 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CTOP AP Will log at AEL Ad Orientem Module:Arrowverse redirect category handler 2024-11-09 18:21 indefinite edit Pppery User talk:Qcne 2024-11-09 16:52 2024-11-16 16:52 edit,move Persistent vandalism Widr Template:TextLicenseFreeUse 2024-11-09 16:02 indefinite edit,move Reduce excessive protection Pppery Maccabi Tel Aviv F.C. 2024-11-09 09:06 2025-11-09 09:06 edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:ARBPIA Ymblanter Draft:Battle for B.F.D.I 2024-11-09 06:10 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated, WP:BFDI Queen of Hearts Michelle Steel 2024-11-09 04:06 2025-11-09 04:06 edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/AP; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan ABBYY 2024-11-09 01:09 2025-02-09 01:09 edit,move WP:GS/RUSUKR ToBeFree Terrorism Research & Analysis Consortium 2024-11-08 22:51 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Anachronist Portal:Current events/2024 November 8 2024-11-08 19:48 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement Pickersgill-Cunliffe User:Cyberwolf 2024-11-08 19:17 indefinite edit,move User request to protect own user page Ivanvector Kachak Movement 2024-11-08 17:10 indefinite move Edit warring / content dispute; requested at WP:RfPP Ivanvector User talk:LauraHale 2024-11-08 11:06 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam 2024-11-08 11:05 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement Isabelle Belato November 2024 Amsterdam attacks 2024-11-08 06:54 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case JD Vance 2024-11-08 04:02 indefinite edit,move Restoring protection by Ad Orientem: Arbitration enforcement CTOP AP Protection Helper Bot Draft:Aaa 2024-11-07 22:46 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; requested at WP:RfPP Ad Orientem Draft:Escape the zombie obby 2024-11-07 22:45 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; requested at WP:RfPP Ad Orientem KC Santosh 2024-11-07 19:28 2024-11-10 19:28 create Repeatedly recreated Liz Talk:H:LINK 2024-11-07 18:09 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated SuperMarioMan Template:MedalComp 2024-11-07 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2517 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Puneet Issar 2024-11-07 15:06 2024-11-10 15:06 edit,move Persistent disruptive editing from (auto)confirmed accounts; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Travis Head 2024-11-07 14:55 2024-11-11 14:55 edit,move Persistent violations of the biographies of living persons policy from (auto)confirmed accounts; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan User talk:Quebecney 2024-11-07 12:59 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Ivanvector Akoko Edo 2024-11-07 12:15 2024-11-14 12:15 edit,move Persistent disruptive editing from (auto)confirmed accounts; requested at WP:RfPP: requested at WP:RfPP Isabelle Belato Joseph Williams (music publisher) 2024-11-07 02:21 indefinite edit Persistent sockpuppetry Liz William Joseph Williams (singer) 2024-11-07 02:13 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated: Repeatedly created by sockpuppets Liz JSW 2024-11-07 02:09 indefinite edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry Liz Joseph Williams (composer) 2024-11-07 02:08 2025-07-11 18:51 edit,move Stronger protection is warranted as last sockpuppet was autoconfirmed Liz Bhardwaj 2024-11-07 01:26 2026-11-07 01:26 edit Addition of unsourced or poorly sourced content: Perennial problem Yamaguchi先生 Second impeachment of Donald Trump 2024-11-06 22:40 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: American politics Ymblanter Draft:Paris Innovation 2024-11-06 21:40 2025-01-06 21:40 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan User talk:Quebecneee 2024-11-06 21:00 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Ivanvector Battle of Kurakhove 2024-11-06 20:23 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:GS/RUSUKR SilverLocust User talk:Maximalistic Editor 2024-11-06 20:16 2025-05-06 20:16 edit,move Persistent disruptive editing Yamla 2025 United States presidential inauguration 2024-11-06 14:08 2025-02-06 14:08 edit,move Similar protection to target article; stop move issues; requested at WP:RfPP Isabelle Belato 2024 United States presidential election 2024-11-06 10:44 2025-02-06 10:44 edit,move returning to EC protection, step down from full Risker User talk:Quebecne 2024-11-06 06:41 2024-12-06 06:41 create Repeatedly recreated Risker Israel and the nuclear program of Iran 2024-11-06 04:46 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement, WP:CT/A-I Significa liberdade Template:US 2024 presidential elections series 2024-11-06 02:05 2024-11-13 02:05 edit,move Persistent disruptive editing Risker Kourage Beats NSI 2024-11-06 01:33 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Liz Kourage Beatz (producer) 2024-11-06 01:25 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Liz Kourage Beatz (record producer) 2024-11-06 01:25 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Liz Kourage Beatz NSI (Producer) 2024-11-06 01:21 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Liz Kourage Beatz NSI (Nigerian record producer) 2024-11-06 01:14 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Liz Kourage Beatz NSI (producer) 2024-11-06 01:13 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Liz

Question re WP:NOSHARING

I recently came across a beautifully worded talk post from an editor who I have worked alongside for a long time.[2] It struck me as very strange, because throughout the time I have previously known him, his English has been very different [3][4][5][6]. It is the difference between a native and non-native speaker, a gap that cannot be bridged in a short period of time. Examples in the first link which I have not seen before from this user include colorful adverbs (e.g. aptly), particular latinate word choices (e.g. subsequently vs. “then/after/next”) and unblemished use of tense.

Is there any way to assess this further with respect to WP:NOSHARING, akin to an WP:SPI?

Onceinawhile (talk) 23:28, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Onceinawhile, Please make sure that you notify the editor in question of this thread, as is required by the red box at the top of this page. I have gone ahead and done this for you. SQL^{Query me!} 00:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this so quickly. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Shrike's first edit was the creation of New England Role Playing Organization on 20 May 2006. Aside from reverting the removal of content and adding un-original content (e.g. citations and quotations), this looks like his next significant contribution to mainspace, 2 December 2006. After that, his next major contribution was the creation of Insulation monitoring device on 17 December 2006. These are the only edits I've seen in his first year of editing in which he added significant amounts of new content to mainspace. The first edit is rather different from the rest. Nyttend (talk) 00:53, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

The editor created a few articles this year. Here are two of them after many edits from the editor, immediately before other editors got involved.[7][8]. 01:17, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Papirosn, last edit before someone else (the second diff in the comment just above mine)
• Mount Hope, Jaffa, last edit before someone else
• Arthur Menachem Hantke, last edit before someone else
• Félix-Marie Abel, last edit before someone else (the first diff above)

Do with these what you will. Nyttend (talk) 01:28, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

I have also interacted with Shrike for a long time. Onceinawhile is correct that it is quite impossible for Shrike to have written the indicated text without help. Nobody can advance from C-grade English to A-grade overnight. Nableezy raised the same question on Shrike's talk page, which Shrike (whose English level had somehow returned to C-grade) refused to answer: I will not gonna answer You baseless WP:ASPERATIONS is another example of you WP:BATTLE mode.But I will say this I certainly didn't broke any rules. I'm not alleging that Shrike violated a policy, but I do believe an explanation is in order. Zero^talk 05:20, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Related, go to this version (earlier this year) of Shrike's talk, scroll down to the bottom, and un-hide the collapsed text; you'll see people asking the same question. Nyttend (talk) 05:47, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Note to Onceinawhile: The post you cite and link to in your OP was not on a talkpage, it was on this noticeboard (AN) [9]. It seems clear to me that Shrike had someone else word the post -- someone who is very familiar with Wikipedia's ins and outs and jargon. It was a very long and detailed, six-paragraph OP about TheGracefulSlick's transgressions. Shrike's subsequent posts in that same thread reverted to his inadequate English. So something is going on. Softlavender (talk) 06:39, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Pinging Icewhiz as he may have some idea about this. Softlavender (talk) 06:46, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
• This appears quite speculative to me, and why has this become a problem a month after the fact. Might it be a timely response to this? Also within days of all of this happening – also involving Shrike. For all intents and purposes, the only thing that may be demonstrated is that Shrike had some help writing the post. Proxying? potentially, but Shrike and TGS have overlap in the IP editing area, and for whom would they be proxying? Their personally filing the case is entirely unsurprising, given that they also started the Your unblock conditions thread on TGS' talk page. Proxying, thus, appears unlikely. GizzyCatBella proposes a more likely explanation that [p]ossibly the editor received some assistance in drafting the note in perfect English [...]. Not unusual, or prohibited. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:03, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Shrike and I recently collaborated on a DYK. I noticed the line through TGS’s name on a talk page yesterday so traced back to find out why. I hope that is a clear explanation. It is the type of explanation I would like to hear from Shrike. His collaboration with the mystery second editor could be innocuous or it could also be the tip of something very bad for our encyclopaedia. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:24, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

I was about to AGF, but then you rounded it out with: or it could also be the tip of something very bad for our encyclopaedia. I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. Get evidence for the latter, or go do something else. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:56, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

(EC) I don't quite understand why proxying is unlikely because Shrike was someone who we would have expected to file a case/has legitimate interest. If I were a banned (whether topic or site) or blocked editor or simply someone without active sanction who wanted to evade scrutiny, looking for someone to proxy for me I'd look for several things. One is someone who could be reasonably expected to file a case. I definitely would avoid choosing someone who had never ever been involved in the area ever before since frankly it would raise too many questions. Now I'd also choose someone who I'd believe would be compliant, preferably someone I was friends with to increase the chance of compliance, and someone who could reasonably have written the message I wrote for them. The first two could obviously apply if proxying were involved, there's no way for me to know. The last one clearly didn't happen. But it doesn't seem sufficient evidence in itself since frankly making sure that the person's English level and commenting style is similar enough to yours is probably one of the easiest things to miss. Remember that proxying is frowned upon, even if you had legitimate interest in what is being proxied and may have eventually written your own version of what's being proxied because banned means banned. At a minimum, it's reasonable that editors should disclose if what they're posting was actually written by a banned or blocked editor or even an editor in good standing who doesn't want to be associated with the complaint and they're posting because they agree it's a legitimate complaint. Note that I'm not saying this happened, but rather I see no reason to say it's unlikely from the limited evidence at hand. Personally, if Shrike at simply clarified when queried about it way back that they had help but the person who helped them wasn't blocked or banned, I would AGF on that. The fact they've been so evasive is what causes concern and makes me feel it would be best if they disclose to arbcom or whatever who helped them. (I'm not saying I would support any sanction if they don't but being part of a community means sometimes it's good if you deal with concerns even without any threat of sanction for not doing so.) Nil Einne (talk) 11:39, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Nil Einne - I had forgotten that I had posted here and hadn't bothered to check whether someone had responded to me. In short, per WP:PROXYING, Wikipedians in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned or blocked editor unless they are able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits. Shrike can do both. The discussion resulted in the community ban being reimposed (thus productive), and Shrike had reason to initiate the discussion (thus independent). If you have any evidence that Shrike was proxying for CrazyAces, even if it doesn't fall under proxying for the preceding reason, then post it. Otherwise, there's nothing to be done here. I'm not going to shove an editor under the proverbial bus without evidence. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:56, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment, by way of explanation: Some folks here do not seem to understand that it appears that Shrike may have been proxying for a banned editor. For those who don't know the whole long story, TheGracefulSlick was endlessly hounded and harassed by CrazyAces489 (talk · contribs) and later by CrazyAces' numerous sockpuppets. If Shrike took the wording of that long involved AN filing from CrazyAces489 or his socks, that would be a breach. As it is, the only other person whom I can think would have the motive, knowledge, English skills, and wherewithal to write such a lengthy and detailed and nuanced and perfect-English filing of TheGracefulSlick's missteps would be Icewhiz, who had also apparently been observing his edits -- but there's no reason that Icewhiz would not have filed his own AN post rather than merely providing text to Shrike (who clearly does not have the ability to write what he posted in that AN filing). Softlavender (talk) 12:23, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  I wasn't aware that the TGS was hounded. In that case, I think it's more imperative that Shrike explain either privately or publicly who helped them with that post. Failing that, I'd be willing to support some sanction. Perhaps a topic ban on bringing on participating in complaints about other editors to AN//I or AE. They may still participate in any discussions about them of course. Nil Einne (talk) 13:46, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Pinging Nableezy, who brought the issue up on Shrike's talkpage last month. Softlavender (talk) 12:31, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• SHRIKE, THE TRIBE HAS SPOKEN. Y'all have too much free time. You're trying to rule on something you have no information on whatsoever, in order to enforce rules that are essentially unenforceable and fundamentally wrong. Hey, Shrike! Can I have the password to your email account? I wanna see who you've been chatting with. Oh, and please hand over your phone. François Robere (talk) 13:07, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Nothing to see here Even if Shrike is copying, verbatim, a banned editor, that's not prohibited under PROXYING. What Shrike is doing (assuming of course that they didn't just ask somebody for English help/spending some time drafting) is taking responsibility for the contents of the post, and they must demonstrate that the changes are productive. Given that the discussion in question lead to the reimposing of an indef on TGS, I think that is prima facie evidence that the post was productive. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 13:18, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  I find it highly questionable whether posting something verbatim from an editor who has hounded the editor you're posting about without at least disclosing it came from said editor is not a violation of WP:HOUNDING. Frankly if it is, I think wikipedia has completely failed as a community to protect each other. There's absolutely zero reason why an editor in good standing, including Shrike, couldn't have brought a complaint about TGS without involving the socking harasser. There's absolutely no reason why Shrike couldn't have simply said fuck you to CrazyAces489 if it really was them. or at the very least, revealed they were bringing a complain which had been written by CrazyAces489. Because that's how we should treat editors who think it's acceptable to hound their fellow editors. Tell them to fuck off because we can handle stuff without them. TGS may have been a highly problematic editor, but we owned them the basic courtesy of keeping away hounding socks from them, or at the very least, disclosing to them if we were going to ban them based on a case effectively brought by a hounding sock. Nil Einne (talk) 13:48, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  Actually I'll put it more simply. If it is true that Shrike is proxying for a socking hounder, and Shrike wants to take responsibility for that edit, then they are taking responsibility for hounding another editor. We are also free to sanction them for engaging in hounding. There should never be any reason why hounding is acceptable, even if the editor being hounded deserves sanction by independent action unrelated to the hounding. This is not simply a matter of semantics since it's completely understandable an editor may feel angry by the fact that they were sanctioned from a discussion started effectively by a hounder, even if were they to look at it fairly, they would recognise the sanction itself was entirely justified. There is absolutely zero reason the discussion which lead to the sanction had to be so tainted. This isn't a case where the hounder managed to evade scrutiny and post before we caught them but one where if it is true, they were enabled by an editor here. Nil Einne (talk) 13:56, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• One final comment on the issue for clarity, since I believe the AE case which was mentioned above has some similarities. If a sock initiates a case and it's closed as coming from a sock, I'm not saying the text has to be thrown out. Actually it may be okay to re-use the case verbatim. In such examples, at least it's disclosed and it's questionable if it's worth re-writing anything if it isn't needed. I consider this fairly different from an example where, unsolicited, an editor who has been hounding another editor to the extent of using socks, sends a case privately or semi-privately to an editor in good standing, and said editor in good standing posts it without disclosing this happened. IMO it should just be completely thrown out, i.e. I'm not even going to bother to read by any editor receiving it. But still, I could accept it if it was disclosed that it came or they believe it came from such an editor. Nil Einne (talk) 14:28, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment I already said that I didn't edited on behalf of banned/blocked user [10] when I first was approached by Nableezy and yes I asked for help with my English as I far as I know its not against any policy per Mr rnddude. In my understanding the complain by OW its part of WP:BATTLE behavior because I didn't allow his WP:POV a DYK nomination to be presented as he wanted--Shrike (talk) 15:05, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

BTW it could be easily checked by CU there was no interaction between me and CrazyAces489 or his socks by email or by other means I authorize such check on my behalf --Shrike (talk) 15:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• • Comment Shrike: ok, let us accept your word, that you didn't get help of the banned CrazyAces489 or his socks, but you did indeed get help of someone, let us call them X, with your English. Fair enough. My problem is that with, say the sentence that Nableezy quotes below: that sentence reveal an intimate knowledge of not only English, but with Wikipedia matter. My non−Wikipedian native−English speaking friends would simply not have managed to produce such a sentence. My question is then, is the person(s) who helped you with your English a present or former Wikipedian? If so, who? You don't have to tell me, but I really think you should disclose it to some "higher authority" here. Huldra (talk) 23:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

There is literally zero chance that the person who wrote this also wrote this. It literally boggles the mind that anybody would believe that somebody who, in a freaking encyclopedia article, wrote such beautiful prose as organization that advocate Palestinian right of return and One-state solution for majority of Jews that means end of Israel as Jewish state also wrote "a view not shared by Cullen328 who saw this as a commitment to the community, or TonyBallioni who aptly noted that while "controversial subjects" is so overly broad that it is unenforceable". Or hell, just count the commas in the AN complaint and the ones in Shrike's response above. Compare the number of run-on sentences. Compare the grammar of "I didn't edited on behalf" and the literally perfect prose of the AN complaint. Now why would somebody have Shrike post a complaint on AN for them? It isnt as though you need to be extended-confirmed, or autoconfirmed even, to post there. The only reason I can fathom for having somebody else post a complaint is if the person who wrote it is prohibited from posting it. As far as the claims of nothing to see here, no, there is. If Shrike made a complaint that was written by and at the direction of a user banned from doing so he has violated WP:BAN. There is, as far as I can tell, no other reason why Shrike would post a complaint that he so clearly did not write. Anybody who believes Shrike actually wrote TheGracefulSlick clearly does not see their commitment, in their unblock request endorsed by the community, as a commitment. The community unblocked based on the statements in the unblock request. Given the circumstances, a community discussion is warranted. Maybe I missed something and this commitment should be seen as voluntary and vacated as a user claim?, please see me at my talk page, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I have been looking to sell. nableezy - 17:30, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Is there an SPI-equivalent process for NOSHARING?

The original question was whether there is an SPI-equivalent process that could be used to get to the bottom of this. I am assuming from the above that the answer is no, but can anyone confirm? Onceinawhile (talk) 15:41, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

The process should be expected in the space above. Technically, 'administrator' (or perhaps checkuser) is the process if any action is expected, but here's a fairly good place to find them loitering. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 17:00, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure what NOSHARING is meant to be, but if you mean the misuse of an account by multiple people, WP:ROLE I believe is the correct guideline, and if not SPI then right here is the venue. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:23, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOSHARING is part of the username policy but also contains a prohibition on shared accounts. I would agree that SPI is the best place to deal with shared account issues. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 17:16, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposal

For his reports of other editors, Shrike has "gotten help with his English" from some undisclosed person who is obviously intimately well−versed in Wikipedia affairs. I think this other person should do his/her own reporting.

I therefor suggest the following motion: Shrike will in the future not be allowed to report any other editor to WP:AE, WP:AN or WP:AN/I.

• Support, as nominator, Huldra (talk) 20:40, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment this ridiculous I am well versed with Wikipedia affairs so I don't need anyone help with this and as per Mr rnddude I did nothing wrong as I didn't break any policy.I think its time for WP:BOOMERANG as Huldra came here just because of our interaction in WP:ARBPIA to continue wage her WP:BATTLE here and make frivolous proposals. --Shrike (talk) 21:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support As explained in the examples above, Shrike is obviously being fed text from someone familiar with WP:ARBPIA—text that the author is unable to post themselves. ARBPIA is possibly the most contentious topic at Wikipdia and Shrike's doubling-down with a denial of reality shows this remedy is the minimum requirement. Johnuniq (talk) 23:09, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
• I dont know why Shrike cant just tell us the truth. Who wrote the report? No, it was not "getting help with his English", that is absurd. The entirety of that report was written by somebody else. User:Shrike, who wrote it? If you cant, or wont, answer that Id support the proposal. nableezy - 01:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. No evidence has been presented of any WikiCrime. Receiving help (from anyone of 360 million English speakers as a first language) translating/proofing is not a WikiCrime. Looking at the AN report it contains 526 words, of which only 294 are actual original text, the rest being user links, quotes of other users (5 extensive quotes), and diffs (around 18 of them). Compiling the 5 quotes + 18 diffs is the hard part here. As Shrike points out above, he knows WikiJargon. Seeing that some folk have been making fun of Shrike's English for years it is understandable he would want help translating/proofing.Icewhiz (talk) 06:16, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  Boomerang/regular admin action against Nableezy. Looking at the thread above - [11]+[12] is disgusting ethnic trolling, made after and right below where Shrike said he had help with English! Looks like Nableezy picked the baddest bits of English he could find (Mobile? Written fast?). Looking at [13] or [14] (mainspace creations, last diff by Shrike prior to another editor editing), contrary to Nableezy's words,[15] Shrike knows how to use commas (something that is not English specific), and while there are mistakes many of them are wrong spellchecker choices (lose->loose). Making fun of someone's English - HR employee fired for appearing to mock applicant's English, ABC News, 25 Jan 2018 - is ethnic trolling that in the real world gets people fired, and should not be tolerated here.Icewhiz (talk) 06:41, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

lol ok. Good luck with that. Ethnic trolling? What exactly are you smoking? nableezy - 17:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• On the same note - diff by Huldra saying "Shrike has "gotten help with his English"" or diff by Nableezy saying "it was not "getting help with his English"" - putting what may appear to be funny words in Shrike's mouth (by quoting) when Shrike had said no such thing AFAICT (he said diff - "and yes I asked for help with my English as I far as I know its not against any policy per Mr rnddude." Making fun of peoples' English is not acceptable. Icewhiz (talk) 07:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: It's clear that someone else wrote the entirety of the report. The only people I can think of who would have the motive and the knowledge would be CrazyAces489, Icewhiz, or Garagepunk66. CrazyAces489 and his socks have been inactive for two years, although some whackjobs do carry on their campaigns to infinity. Garagepunk66 is too mild-mannered, and just wants to be left alone and to not be subject to TGS's harassment; he's not the type of person to take such active measures against someone who had already promised to leave him alone, plus he is largely inactive. Icewhiz just posted an odd and apparently unwarranted rant against Nableezy (and now one against Huldra). In any case, whoever it was that wrote the report in absentia is unlikely to do it via a mouthpiece again. And Shrike is unlikely to have anyone write reports for him in the future. So I oppose this proposal, unless Shrike does this again -- posts something on a noticeboard he clearly did not write himself. Softlavender (talk) 07:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  Unless Huldra can demonstrate that Shrike said somewhere that he has "gotten help with his English" (I searched - only Huldra) - then misquoting Shrike in this manner should be seen as an ethnic based personal attack. An "if you no speak English" was sufficient to get a guy fired from a real-life job.[16] Icewhiz (talk) 07:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  Are you kidding me????? You do know that English is my fourth language, right? (Thats right: I grew up hearing 3 different languages every day; none of them English.) So I am acutely aware that there is room for improvement in my English. To my ignorant ears "gotten help with his English" sounded like a good rephrasing of what Shrike said; if I am wrong, then obviously I am open for correction, (and obviously it was a rephrasing: note the word "his".) Huldra (talk) 10:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  As "gotten help with his English" was in quote marks - it very clearly reads as an attributed quote to Shrike (who is the person being discussed - "For his reports of other editors, Shrike has "gotten help with his English" from...")."got help" would read better, however my comment wasn't on the grammar but on misquoting another editor - the choice to use quotation marks here has nothing to do with English (quotation marks, as commas, are the same in most European languages), misquoting someone is a pretty big deal.Icewhiz (talk) 11:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  Actually, you wrote that "misquoting Shrike in this manner should be seen as an ethnic based personal attack". (And that's an exact quote.) Thats a pretty serious charge against me. Huldra (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  Then don't imply that other editors wrote something they hadn't. Beyond the has/had issue in the sentence, by quoting Shrike allegedly writing "gotten" you were implying Shrike speaks American English,Oxford - "the form gotten is not used in British English but is very common in North American English", more -[17][18]. The American/British divide is a realm filled with national/ethnic tensions. Icewhiz (talk) 13:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  Huh??? Shrike says on his user page that he comes from Israel, and I, by using "gotten" were purposely attempting to open the "American/British divide [..] filled with national/ethnic tensions"????? Yeah, rrrright...the American/British divide is of course much, much more serious that the Israeli/Palestinian divide (<sarcasm/>). You know, Icewhiz, sometimes when you are in hole, it is just best to stop digging. (PS, again: you wrote: "misquoting Shrike in this manner should be seen as an ethnic based personal attack". I still say that is a pretty serious charge against me.) (PPS: thank you for your trust in my English capabilities....I had of course no idea that "gotten" was associated with American English) Huldra (talk) 20:48, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  Icewhiz is way off-base here. The construction "has gotten help" is a common English phrase. I would be likely to use it as a native English speaker (and I'm not American either). (But I wouldn't say "he had gotten us tickets"; there is a subtle difference that is hard to pin down.) Moreover, it corresponds to Shrike's claims. So the worst offence Huldra might have committed was putting quotation marks around a grammatically correct and factually correct paraphrase. Calling it an ethnic slur is insulting and actionable. Zero^talk 02:37, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose I will be back to examine this in greater depth but at first glance it seems to be a fairly uncorroborated claim that borders on WP:ASPERSION. The gist of the case against Shrike, apparently, is that someone thought his English sucked and suddenly it improved one time in a report (a high stress situation where one might take time to improve their language or request help on linguistic - not policy - grounds). The poor guy seems he can't win in this paradigm-- post normally and his English is mocked and he suffers the prejudice that is all too often inflicted on those who were not born into the fortune of never having to struggle with English, while if he puts in too much effort, he is subjected to rather unsubstantiated claims of proxying. I have been looking for the evidence and maybe I missed it but I can't seem to find anything worthy of conviction here, and far from it... Conversely, if sufficient evidence is not presented, this case, with all the implications of harassing someone for their English (it's good so it couldn't be you) is at the very least something that merits a heart felt apology from the poster.--Calthinus (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated? Just read the report. I seriously cannot believe that anybody can, in good faith, say that is anywhere close to the English Shrike has used both prior and after that edit. It boggles the mind honestly. nableezy - 17:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Nableezy it is entirely unsubstantiated, so much so that nobody even knows who this mysterious editor is, or if they even exist. One guy, CrazyAces, has been floated by someone who wasn't the OP, on incredibly spurious grounds, and not even any textual comparison to demonstrate habits that are particular to CrazyAces. Normally if this were an SPI, you would try to match his language to that of a banned user-- but not a single candidate has seriously been brought forward. The entire gist of this report is the offensive premise that Shrike's English is so broken he is incapable of fixing it with effort -- and that is itself demeaning. Now we can consider the case where, after years of having his English mocked, he goes for help. This is not unlikely, especially with all the implications present in the hegemonic Anglosphere -- that one who lacks the luck to have naturally acquired English is uneducated, stupid, etc... which are demonstrably unfair as can even be cited with RS. Indeed, prejudice against those speaking non-standard English has been compared in literature to racism, and can have similar unjust implications with regards to jobs, housing, et cetera. Now, imagine that, after experiencing this sort of bigotry for years, Shrike tries to ameliorate the situation and gets help with his English... only for editors to try to use that to link him to some imaginary banned editor they can't even identify, to sanction him. This deserves not a report, but an apology, and a pledge to refrain from such bigotry again. His English is not standard, but it is clearly comprehensible and that has always been what truly matters. --Calthinus (talk) 18:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

No, that is not the premise. The premise is that for edits both prior to and following the report Shrike uses grammar and language that is in no way even in the same ballpark as what the report uses. Nobody called him uneducated, stupid, or any of the other things you think they are saying. What I at least have said is that it is obvious that he did not write that report. And you can stick your head in the sand and scream AGF all you want, but that is not a suicide pact, and if you spend even two minutes looking at his edits, both in this this thread and anywhere else on Wikipedia you will quickly find a level of English that is at odds with using the word "aptly" aptly. I dont think anybody mocked his English for years, or even now. I am not mocking anything, I dont begrudge an editor with poor English editing on Wikipedia. I wish they would not put poor English in actual articles, but that is something that anybody can fix. But, and heres the issue, the idea that somebody can go from writing second language level English to perfect prose for one report, and then somehow regresses back to that second language level English is a non-starter. Shrike did not write that report, full stop. This bullshit about bigotry is exactly that. Im a bigot because I question how somebody can go from writing Part are you unblock conditions that you have taken upon yourself was ... If you want to remove this condition that OK but you should ask permission to a view not shared by Cullen328 who saw this as a commitment to the community, or TonyBallioni who aptly noted that while "controversial subjects" is so overly broad that it is unenforceable and then shortly after back to, in that same discussion, OK lets asses the community consensus here is a three proposals? Bullshit. nableezy - 19:04, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Just because you didn't notice anyone mocking his English doesn't mean it never happened (see also "I never saw a racism in my life, I have black friends..." et cetera). Is it really so hard to imagine that someone put in effort (including asking for help) to improve their English? It's easy to imagine, let's say I purchase one of the many, many, many books available -- or web services -- to Hebrew speakers to help them express what they would say in Hebrew in English, so they can be just as eloquent. Or he even may have asked a friend "how do you say ----- in English exactly"... this is not hard to imagine in the slightest. AGF is a thing. And by the way, my reaction to this would be very different if you had presented credible evidence of Shrike adopting the peculiar habits of another user -- even if these particular habits are specific to people based on native language (native Slavic speakers omitting "the", native Chinese speakers confusing pronouns when they're tired, Balkanians using the infinitive for the past participle i.e. "he had to forgot"). What I am illustrating here is that the difference between those (acceptable) and this (not) is that the premise of this is that Shrike is unable to improve his English no matter how hard he tries. And you should really apologize for that, as it is, while perhaps unintended, a veiled personal attack. --Calthinus (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, sure, thats what happened. A veiled personal attack? How about the outright one of calling people bigots? Get off it, yall can make these asinine leaps of logic, but Shrike's English has not improved. I dont know if you are purposely missing the point or not. Shrike's English, both before and after that edit is not the same as that edit. If Shrike's English had improved, magically or otherwise, then why in that same thread, after posting a perfectly written complaint, did he regress back to here is a three proposals? Oh, he must have had one of those temporary English lesson plans that are valid only for ten minutes, after which back to normal. Silly me, I should have assumed that. nableezy - 20:13, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Nableezy Someone can behave in a way shaped by bigotry subconsciously without being a bigot -- which I never implied. I bet if someone analyzed my French online they would find the proficiency is inconsistent. Sometimes I put in more effort than others, when I'm lazy I just use English grammar in French, knowing its probably wrong but typing quickly. The correct thing to do is to apologize.--Calthinus (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

lol, sure buddy, this is just inconsistent proficiency. Like I said, keep your head in the sand if you want. I choose not to. Also, might want to crack open a dictionary. Or keep your head in the sand on that one too. nableezy - 22:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Systemic bias is not personal.--Calthinus (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Im not sure what that is supposed to be an answer to, considering you said bigotry and not bias. My dictionary says bigotry: the state of mind of a bigot. And acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot. I dont really care all that much, there clearly is nothing that is going to be done about this. But the chances of my apologizing for saying something obviously true, that somebody besides Shrike wrote that report, is approximately zero. Which is also the amount of thinking I will give to bullshit accusations of bigotry. Have a good day. nableezy - 22:47, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - Even presupposing that the aspersions cast were 100% true, I would not support preventing an editor from being able to raise legitimate issues at the appropriate administrator's noticeboards without substantial evidence that they only used those boards to cause disruption. No evidence to that effect has so far been presented and that's with the presupposition that the aspersion cast was 100% true. The central allegation that "he didn't write it himself now did he?" (bogan Australian accent) Shrike has confirmed "yes, I had help; no it did not come from CrazyAces" which without evidence to the contrary is sufficient. You know, that whole principle of guilt needing to be proven. WP:SPI is that way if you want to prove your allegations – which has been stated in the above section by none other than a CU toting Admin. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
• Burn the witch! We need no further proof than that his English magically improved - it's clear that Satan helped him! Burn him at the stake (and make room for marshmallows)! François Robere (talk) 13:06, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - Shrike says they merely asked for help with English. There's no evidence that this is other than the case. I'm personally of the opinion that it wouldn't matter if the person in question was a banned Wikipedian or not. The report (Shrike's) had merit, as evidenced by the consequent imposition of an indef. Shrike would have had independent reasons for making the report. Consequently, I would not see this as a policy violation, even if it was copied verbatim from a banned editor (although it would raise questions re HOUNDING, that requires further speculation on which particular banned editor... hardly actionable). In light of that, and the assumed truth of Shrike's statement (with a complete dearth of evidence to the contrary, it's quite possible correct English around a lack of policy understanding), I would say that any sanction here would be based on speculation and conjecture. All we know is that an editor got help with their English, off wiki, be it from a non Wikipedian or a Wikipedian. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 13:59, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose this request and I am strongly in favor of a boomerang. This is more atrocious and just troubling. The "other side" just keeps coming up with ways to shut the opposition out. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:39, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Oppose. There is nothing wrong with asking someone to help you with your English or your writing. This thread is filled with some serious jackassery. Leviv ich 03:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Neutral as I've said before, I find it very troubling that people would think it okay for Shrike to "get help" which could be in the form of letting someone who banned write the report for them. Especially if that person is was banned for hounding the person the report is on. Shrike has offered some clarification of which is a little better then the previous one but it's barely satisfactory in my eyes since mostly although hopefully unintentionally, it's a non denial denial (as with their first comment). Shrike has said that "didn't post anything on behalf on banned editors" and " I already said that I didn't edited on behalf of banned/blocked user" which of course could easily be true even if someone who is banned wrote it entirely since Shrike clearly wanted the same outcome so it may very well be true they posted on their own behalf something written entirely by a banned hounder from those comments. They also said "BTW it could be easily checked by CU there was no interaction between me and CrazyAces489 or his socks by email or by other means I authorize such check on my behalf" which is another effective hopefully unintentional non denial denial, since of course, there is no way a CU could detect most forms of communication. They never actually said "I've never interacted with CrazyAce489 except on wikipedia to my knowledge" or some other clear denial. They did say "yes I asked for help with my English", and I AGF that this means they gathered most of the evidence themselves. I still find it very trouble if they got help even if just for English from a banned editor, especially one who was banned for hounding the editor the report on. Again I am perfectly willing to AGF if Shrike will issue an explicit denial. E.g. "I do not believe the person who assisted me with my English is a banned editor" or similar and will then oppose this proposal. Note I do not care who the person they received help from actually is provided it's not a banned editor. Despite the problems that may exist in this topic area, I don't think it's it's right for us to get involved in that, provided the editor isn't effectively helping banned editors to hound other contributors. Note it's also none of my concern who Shrike received English help from in general. If they want to learn English from CrazyAces489, that's surely their right. It's only the intersection of the two that I find very concerning. (So I don't actually care whether they want to deny interacting with CrazyAces489.) Nil Einne (talk) 15:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Nil Einne, Here you go : I've never interacted with CrazyAce489 to my knowledge and I do not believe the person who assisted me with my English is a banned editor.And btw per WP:EMAIL CUs can check if I sent mail to CrazyAce489 or his socks as far as I understand there was only way for me to communicate with him Shrike (talk) 19:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the confirmation. And sorry for any doubt, it's just that your earlier messages weren't clear enough for me.

As for the CU issue, people have said you are experienced with wikipedia policy issues which is one reason for my concerns but I guess you're not so familiar with this specific area. I am not that familiar, but from my limited knowledge I know such a check is almost useless because 1) Initial contact is all that matters since once contact has been made, it could be continued off wikipedia. 2) Checkusers can only see that an email was sent not the contents. 3) While I don't know much about CrazyAces489, for the vast majority of persistent socks it's unlikely we have identified all socks. Notably if the editor was careful and had access to IPs which can't easily be tied to them there would be almost no way for us to identify socks which were only use to email you. 4) Checkusers could tag any contact from an editor with few edits as suspicious and ask you what is up with that, but they will need to consider all our intentionally and correctly strong privacy policies etc. 5) Even if they did that, it wouldn't work if CrazyAces489 was very careful in cultivating a goodhand account, perhaps in areas completely unrelated to whatever areas they've had problems with and never tied it their problem socks. 6) It's all pointless anyway since a quick check tells me CrazyAces489 has existed for over 2 years. I'm sure the email log is just like our other logs, only kept for a short time. Even if it's longer than the 3-6 months of our other logs, it's quite likely that it's not long enough i.e. any initial contact would not be in the extant logs. 7) Of course if your email or identity, or CrazyAces489's identity or email is publicly known, or if either of you use the same pseudonyms elsewhere, then this is even more pointless since even the initial contact could completely bypass wikipedia.

I don't know you, and AFAIK have very little interaction with you. As I said in various places, I have no problem with AGFing when you said you did not have contact. But I'm much more re-assured by you denying it then you simply saying check, I'm sure you'll find no evidence without actually saying it didn't happen. Maybe you don't have much experience, but that sort of thing is often used by politicians etc. On wikipedia, if there is reason to think someone may be socking, and said editor simply says CUs are welcome to check, they will find no evidence but doesn't actually say they didn't sock, I'm going to be very suspicious even though at least in that case it all happened on wikipedia. (But lack of evidence is not evidence of absence for good reason.) </p

Note in either your case or my example, someone saying CUs are welcome to check is not very meaningful. CUs don't do innocence checks so it's not going to make a big difference to them. IE for someone who is being malicious and is familiar with policy, they would know they can say this with little actual consequence. (This is sorta my point 8.)

Nil Einne (talk) 06:11, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Nil Einne, I feel, as a general proposition, people will ask people for help, and that's something that should be encouraged, not discouraged. Editors who are not fluent in English will sometimes ask people for help with their English both on- and off-wiki. I think looking askance at that because it might be meatpuppetry or improper proxying runs counter to the principle of WP:AGF. We should assume that editors are not violating policies, rather than, as a general principle, require them to explicitly affirm as much. Although Shrike has done so here, I don't think that was necessary, or something we should ask of editors. Nor do I feel it's appropriate to say things like, "This editor's English was better in this post than that post, there must be something suspicious going on!" That sort of attitude runs counter to WP:AGF, and impedes the collaborative spirit necessary to produce an encyclopedia. Leviv ich 20:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

You are aware this concerns an WP:ARBPIA topic? And the first diff in the OP concerns a beautifully written post at WP:AN seeking a strong sanction against an editor? Talk of AGF is inappropriate in a case like that. Obviously someone who was unable to post the text themselves gave the text to Shrike for proxying. I am not suggesting a sanction, just an acknowledgment of reality. Johnuniq (talk) 04:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Johnuniq, I am aware, and I very, very strongly disagree that "AGF is inappropriate in a case like that". It's easy to AGF when things are going well. AGF is needed the most when things are the hardest–in disputes, at noticeboards, especially in DS and other sensitive areas. "AGF is not a suicide pact" doesn't mean we throw AGF out the window as soon as the going gets tough. In this instance, for example, a post on AN is exactly the time that non-fluent English speakers would be most likely to get help with their English. We should encourage that; it's much easier for the rest of us to read a polished AN report than one that is less polished. I felt, and still feel, that statements like, "obviously someone who was unable to post the text themselves gave the text to Shrike for proxying" (which is what you said, but also the gist of this proposal and this AN report) are inappropriate because it's not at all obvious, and, in my view, flies directly in the face of AGF. When there are two possible explanations, one innocent and one nefarious, you are assuming the worse one, instead of assuming the better one. For me, that's the reality, whereas what you're calling "reality" is actually just your own assumption of bad faith. Unless you have some evidence of proxying besides the statement itself? Leviv ich 16:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Levivich Sorry but I don't really give a fuck what you think is a general proposition. I already specifically said I have no problem with someone asking for help, provided it's not from banned editors, especially not banned editors who have been harassing/hounding the person which they're seeking help in dealing with. Since you're replying to me, I'm going to assume you read that part and you reply is relevant to what I said. If this means you feel it's okay for someone to seek help in writing a post about person X from person Y who was banned for hounding person X, then sorry but fuck you. I don't have any time for you and would prefer if you refrain from ever addressing me ever again. You are the sort of person who makes wikipedia are horrible place to edit, since you think it is okay to assist people in hounding. If you aren't saying that then the first part of your post has fuck all to do with what I actually said despite it being a reply to my thread. As for the second part of your post, you seem to be missing my point as well. People were concerned when they noticed that Shrike posted something that was clearly not written without assistance. These people came to this opinion based on their experience, and they were clearly right since Shrike has confirmed that it did not happen without assistance. (Funnily enough, in this wider thread and I think also in this specific sub-thread, there are people saying it doesn't matter what Shrike did because the outcome shows they were right. Yet someone people aren't allowed to seek clarification when they are concerned that something does not appear to have been written without assistance, by the person who submitted it, when they too were clearly right?) When they sought clarification from Shrike, Shrike was, intentionally or not, evasive about what actually happened, issuing only non denial denials. When someone see evidence there's some unusual going on, and asks for clarification and the person fails to address the concerns express, of course people are going to respond accordingly. By the same token, if someone sees a very unusual article or contrib which looks a lot like it is paid editing, and asks for clarification, and the person refuses to actual deny they were paid to edit, we will treat that accordingly even though there is no requirement for someone to actually deny paid editing. Actually in both instances, someone issuing non denial denials is even more concerning than someone simply ignoring the concerns, from experience when you ask someone something and they don't actually deny it but instead say stuff which is worded in such a way that it appears to be a denial but on careful reading it's not, often not an accident. Of course it can happen by accident, especially I suspect when people's English ability is poor, hence why I was neutral and not supportive of the proposal. Nil Einne (talk) 05:18, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

P.S. I appreciate I was and am very angry now, including when I wrote the above, perhaps I shouldn't have written it. As I said a while back, and re-iterated above, I find it absolutely and completely disgusting if people think it's okay for another editor to effectively assist a hounder in hounding. E.g. by seeking assistance from a hounder in writing a post about the editor the hounder hounded. I have (as I think I mentioned a long time back) been staying away from this post for that reason. Still when you browse AN as much as I do (yes too much I know) it's hard to avoid stuff especially stuff which lasts as long as this and so I came across it again. In the new parts of the discussion I dared read seemed much more reasonable and so I decided to participate again. I now feel it's a mistake since I was pinged back here by Levivich who I seems to think it's okay to for someone to assist a hounder.

If that isn't what they're trying to say, then I apologise to them, but as I said, I'm mystified why they wrote that in a reply to me. I already and intentionally made it clear I had no problem with editors seeking assistance from people who aren't banned (which to be clear, includes people who aren't editors) before Levivich replied. The first part of their reply therefore had no real purpose that I can see. It wasn't needed for the second part of the reply, relating to what AGF etc means in this case.

If people feel that AGF means that the community can't respond when they notice something clearly odd namely a post that was clearly written with assistance and ask a simple question, and instead of a simple answer get something else, and because of that, decide that they can no longer AGF and the editor should be forbidden from seeking assistance because they've failed to actual deny they received assistance in a way that is disgusting, then they should simply say that. There's no reason to bring up other irrelevant stuff when replying to me especially if I've already addressed it precisely to avoid any possible confusion. (I have a tendency to write very long posts, in part so I can address as many possible areas of confusion before they arise as I feel necessary.) I clearly disagree with it, but I can at least see where the editors are coming from compared to any suggestion that assisting with hounding is okay.

Nil Einne (talk) 06:11, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

P.P.S. Rereading Levivich's comment now that I've calmed down a little, it does come across as fairly similar in part to what I've now written below. So it's easily possible that's all they wanted to say, and they weren't trying to suggest it was okay for an editor to receive assistance in writing something about a second editor, from a third editor who was banned for hounding the second editor. While they did reply to me, replies are sometimes used when making general points, and of course when agreeing with what an editor has said. I have an unfortunate tendency to assume when an editor replies to me they are disagreeing with what I've said rather than concurring or supporting, or concurring in part and disagreeing in part. If that's the case, I again wholeheartedly apologise to Levivich, and also the community for any distraction cause by my post. While I feel my strong emotional disgust for any suggestion that assisting an editor in hounding is justified, which to me includes seeking any assistance from such an editor in writing a post about the people they hounded, I should have let myself calm down a bit then either ignored the comment or sought clarification before commenting further. (Somewhat getting into what I said earlier, I prefer to write long posts with everything I think matters and then never re-visiting. But often that doesn't work. I'm writing this because I definitely don't want to re-visit in case my initial reaction was correct.) The AGF/second part we obviously disagree, but as mentioned I disagree but understand where they're coming from. Nil Einne (talk) 07:22, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Nil Einne, I don't think it's OK for editors to hound editors, for editors to help other editors hound editors, or for editors to proxy for banned/blocked editors (regardless of whether it's for hounding, or if it's for making the world's best edit ever, proxying should not be allowed). My point was that, where the entirety of the evidence is that a user wrote something with better English than typical (even when that something is an AN report), we can assume good faith (help with English) or we can assume bad faith (proxying), and we should assume good faith absent evidence of proxying. That's all I'm saying. I think you and I agree on this? I note for the benefit of anyone else reading this that the original report, and the proposal we're discussing, wasn't about hounding or proxying or an appropriate case of getting help v. an inappropriate case of getting help. Some editors feel that if Shrike got help for any reason, that should result in sanctions, with the particular sanction being a prohibition from posting to noticeboards. The suggestion is that getting help with English was a violation of NOSHARING. That's what I disagree with, because it's not AGF. We can't punish people simply for getting help with English, and we shouldn't assume the worst about users getting help with English, either, because it's not AGF. Leviv ich 16:08, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

That good faith might be merited if Shrike would just say who wrote it. If it wasnt a banned editor fine great Ill believe him. But he refuses to even do that. How am I supposed to believe somebody who wont actually say anything? nableezy - 16:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

That's kind of my whole point. "Assume good faith" doesn't mean "prove to me you're acting in good faith". Unless you have some evidence that Shrike is acting on behalf of a blocked user or banned user or otherwise proxying against policy, I don't think you have any right to ask him who helped him with his English. All you've got for evidence is that he wrote an AN report that was well-written and that he obviously had help in writing. That, alone, is not evidence of wrongdoing of any kind, and doesn't require any kind of follow-up proof of innocence. Because we AGF–we assume the report was written in good faith for good faith purposes, absent evidence to the contrary. That's my view. Leviv ich 18:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

AGF is not a suicide pact. If the person who wrote it were not banned from posting the complaint they could have done it themselves. Like I said earlier, yall can stick your heads in the sand, but I choose not to. nableezy - 20:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Oppose For the reasons expressed by Levivich et al. There is nothing wrong with non-native speakers seeking help with English. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 04:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• SupportOppose Based on confirmation from Shrike that they did not receive assistance from any editor they believed to be banned Nil Einne (talk) 05:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

  Nil Einne, You probably meant that you oppose the sanction against me? Shrike (talk) 06:20, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

  Shrike Sorry you're right. One of the perils of editing when emotional. Nil Einne (talk) 06:50, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

A better proposal

Considering that:

• The Mystery of the Improved English was over a month ago.
• No actual evidence of any actual wrongdoing has been provided. It's all speculation and innuendo.
• Onceinawhile (the filer of this report) didn't even participate in the discussion where all this happened [19]
• We should be cognizant of how the filer sees editing Wikipedia. In his own words - he considers himself a "footsoldier fighting [...] in one of wikipedia's battlegrounds"(emphasis mine) [20]

While it could be interesting to hear Onceinawhile's explanation on why he waited a month to submit this report and how he found out about the whole thing in the first place, it is very obvious this is a BATTLE attempt to get rid of an opponent for something the editor (or as he sees himself, the "footsoldier") wasn't even involved in. I suggest a BOOMERANG with a minimum sanction (in the spirit of Huldra's proposal above) of him not being allowed to report Shirke on any board. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support as nom. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose as completely unnecessary. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:09, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, however I believe No More Mr Nice Guy deserves a boomerang for this partisan volley against Onceinawhile. Softlavender (talk) 09:07, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Move to close

• Move to close with a warning to Shrike to avoid having other people write his posts going forward. Softlavender (talk) 09:07, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

  Softlavender, there is nothing wrong with having someone help you with your English. Da fuq. Leviv ich 03:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

  It's clear to me that's not what happened. Someone wrote the entirety of the 500+ word complaint, and Shrike posted it for them. Softlavender (talk) 03:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

  Per my quick count above - 526 words, of which only 294 are actual original text, the rest being user links, quotes of other users (5 extensive quotes), and diffs (around 18 of them). Three entirely unconnected observations, and I am not implying any connection:

  1. Flatulence humor#Inculpatory pronouncements.
  2. According to Softlavender's user page they "have been a professional editor for over 17 years".
  3. Softlavender strongly opposed the unblock on TGS's user page [21][22][23], on the AN unblock discussion [24][25][26], and then supported re-blocking at AN [27][28].

  Looking at Shrike's post again, there are clearly two hands involved, as per Shrike's comments above. Most of the AN post is in stuffy formal language written in the 3rd person, like the way a student would write a formal letter. But in "Maybe I missed something and...." Shrike goes into the 1st person and informal language - likely per Shrike's explanation a change Shrike made after he got help. If there is anything worth warning about - it is Wikipedia:Casting aspersions and making fun of a user's English (abuse that continued even after Shrike said he got help). Icewhiz (talk) 04:42, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• Agree with a motion to close, but with the caveat that closing with any action would be a supervote. There is no consensus that Shrike has done anything wrong, and thus no consensus for a warning. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:26, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment I don't think there are consensus for any sanction/warning in this thread to anyone but I did took User:Softlavender comments to heart --Shrike (talk) 09:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• I'll leave it to the closer to assess consensus, but for my part, support closing but oppose any sanction, warning, or boomerang except perhaps a reminder to AGF per my comments above. Leviv ich 20:26, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) Support close (oppose warning or sanction). For the reasons expressed by Levivich et al. There is nothing wrong with non-native speakers seeking help with English. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 04:29, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support close but oppose warning or sanction. I think it's a great thing if editors seek assistance for any problems they have such as their English ability. There's no reason in general why editors should be discouraged from doing it, let alone sanctioned for it. Doing so is harmful to wikipedia and its contributors. It doesn't matter if that assistance is on or off wikipedia. The only problem arises when an editor seeks assistance in a way that is harmful to wikipedia and its contributors. As I've said several times now, for me seeking any assistance from a banned editor in a topic area they are banned from, particularly a highly diverse topic area with strong active sanctions, and especially an editor who was banned in part for hounding, and the 'topic' is a sanction of the editor they hounded, is a clear red line. But again, provided editors stay away asking assistance from such editors or in any other way that is clearly harmful, there is no problem and people seeking help should be encouraged not discouraged. From my view, Shrike has sufficiently confirmed there was no problem in the way they sought assistance, so there's no problem. The wider issue for how we should deal when people are concerned that a redline may have been crossed is something which we've clearly come to no conclusion here. Of far greater concern to me is the apparent disagreement that the redline exists. Both of these will hopefully be dealt with in future somewhere appropriate. Nil Einne (talk) 06:45, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

  To be clear, for me the problem only arises when the assistance is related to something an editor has been banned from. To give an example, I don't know CrazyAces489. Clearly what they are doing on wikipedia, as described by others, is disgusting and there's no way in hell we should tolerate any involvement in it continuing. But maybe they are much better outside this specific problem area. And even if not, if someone wants to be friends with CrazyAces489 and learn English from them, that's ultimately non of our business provided it doesn't cross over into direct assistance in writing stuff here, and especially not relating to any editor/s? CrazyAces489 hounded in the past. Nil Einne (talk) 07:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Run a deletion script

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi, could someone run a script to delete all 88 pages that are linked from User:Nyttend/Ohio NRHP/archive box? Thank you. Nyttend (talk) 23:29, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Done. For future reference, if you have Twinkle, it is the "d-batch" tab. Killiondude (talk) 23:49, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't run scripts. Nyttend (talk) 00:35, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Good grief! Your poor fingers! Dlohcierekim (talk) 14:11, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Seriously! You're a madman Nyttend. ~Swarm~ {talk} 01:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dogsbite.org dispute

Dogsbite.org is under a editing dispute about the neutrality of the quality of the sources and tone of the article. I would like one of administrators to resolve it once and for all. I won't interfere otherwise I will be accused by the likes of User:Nomopbs of vandalizing the article.Dwanyewest (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Admins have no special authority to deal with content disputes. If you don't find agreement on the talk page, try Wikipedia:Third opinion — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:15, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

CfD backlog

Hi. There's a bit of a backlog at CfD, with some discussions open from the start of the year. Appreciate if someone could make a dent into this please. Thanks in advance. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 11:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever beat the backlog back from January 1 to January 2. Legacypac (talk) 19:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Changes to User pages guideline

This diff shows this month's changes to the guideline. These have been implemented with a minimum of discussion among a handful of editors. I commented that I thought an RfC was needed to make these changes, and I was shut down. I have been involved in these kinds of disputes as to whether changes to a policy or guideline are sufficiently substantive to require a larger discussion than a "normal" talk page discussion, and it's frustrating at best. Then, what sometimes happens in the future is we get stuck with changes that often administrators have to follow with the obvious question "when did that get changed"?

Many of the changes in the above diff are organizational and do not change the substance of the guideline, so I'll highlight the ones I believe are substantive:

• Very divisive or offensive material not related to encyclopedia editing -> Divisive material not related to encyclopedia editing
• Inappropriate or excessive personal information unrelated to Wikipedia. -> Inappropriate or excessive personal information unrelated to Wikipedia. The amount of leeway for userspace material is generally considered to be in proportion to the user's contributions to Wikipedia. A non-contributor may not post an autobiography.
• If you wish to delete your own page, tag the top of the page with {{db-u1}}, and an administrator will delete it for you. However, note that user talk pages are normally not deleted. -> If you wish to delete your own page, tag the top of the page with {{db-u1}}, and an administrator will delete it for you. However, note that your main user talk pages will not normally be deleted.

With that much moving material around to different places, I might have (1) put in something that didn't really change or (2) failed to put in something that did change.

I'm unwilling to try to push the RfC point on the guideline talk page. Nor am I willing to start a "negative" RfC myself as I'm not advocating any changes to the guideline. Often these kinds of changes are triggered by one or more editors being frustrated by a particular interpretation of the guideline and moving from micro to macro to try to "fix" the problem. Anyway, I've done as much as I feel able to do by bringing this here.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• Shut down? You said something, I responded.

A minimum of discussion? A minimum of discussion would be zero discussion. There is more than zero discussion.

—SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:18, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Oh come on. Spare us the vocabulary lesson. It's obvious they meant "little" discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:27, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• Actually, this should be brought here, and thanks to Bbb23 for doing so. And also, yes, changes such as these should have a RfC and been advertised at WP:CENT: they comprehensively affect every new page patroller, spam / vandal fighter and yes admin on the project. FWIW, I agree, at first glance, with some of the proposed changes—for example emphasising the disruption caused by PROMO/WEBHOSTing userpages (indeed, perosnally, I think it could go even further); on the other hand, redefing what is "Divisive material" in the absence of a major discussion could be seen as, well, rather divisive. ——SerialNumber54129 14:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• I would generally be in favour of full-protecting every page that is classified as a policy - changes, even minor ones, should not be made to sitewide policies without discussion. In this instance what I see is mostly just moving things from one point to another, but things like changing "very divisive" to "divisive" are changes with inherently major consequences, the "amount of leeway" bit should not have been added without much wider discussion (it violates WP:ANYONECANEDIT as worded, for one thing), and creating a WP:FIGHTINGWORDS shortcut seems like it's inviting conflict. I endorse everything SN54129 said above. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

  I thought this was overkill until I saw the history. There are a lot of undiscussed changes there, and had they been discussed in a public place (where people that do not have every policy page on their watchlist would notice) I would have opposed. Natureium (talk) 15:42, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

  I generally agree, the current system is seriously flawed. Paradoxically, your suggestion to tighten the protocol would make it more difficult to correct problems resulting from 17 years under the looser protocol. Smarter folks than I would have to figure that out. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:48, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• At the very least, these changes needed far greater publicity and transparency, and policy changes should not be made by small numbers of people who happen to hang out on talk pages of policy pages - such things should be more widely advertised. My thanks to Bbb23 for alerting us to this. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• I don't necessarily disagree with the changes, but they need much wider discussion because they are indeed a significant change tot he existing guidance. Guy (Help!) 15:27, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• The bit about The amount of leeway for userspace material is generally considered to be in proportion to the user's contributions to Wikipedia. A non-contributor may not post an autobiography., while possibly reflecting current usage, is rather a daring addition in the absence of centralized discussion. An RFC couldn't hurt. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 15:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• Echoing the above; it should have been RFC with publicity. GiantSnowman 15:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• Piling on here: yes, although I agree with certain of the changes and disagree with others (and at least one appears to be seriously POV and pointy), they should not have been implemented without an RfC. I suggest that all the cited changes be revered to the LGV, and am RfC (or multuple RfCs), advertised on CENT, be started. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• I do agree give the importance of this guideline and the amount of change, it needs more discussion than it has received. This will hopefully also help deal with untagged redirects. For example, WP:SHITLIST currently redirects to polemic even though the most relevant part has been moved out of that table entirely. (I know this because I tried to refer to it but was confused when it didn't exist earlier today. Funnily enough, I also did refer to something which I find now does exist i.e. that people are likely to be more tolerant of stuff coming from established editors although I did add even if they shouldn't be. Nil Einne (talk) 22:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• I was surprised to find that I am suddenly in violation because of these changes.

The guideline now says "User categories must be subcategories of Category:Wikipedians".

I and several other editors have

Category:Wikipedians with red-linked categories on their user talk page

on their user talk pages.

I also have added

Category:WikiProject Technology participants

and

Category:Members of the Ten Year Society of Wikipedia editors

and have have various templates add me to cats like

Category:User Assembly Language-4,

Category:WikiProject Cryptography participants

and

Category:Wikipedia semi-protected user and user talk pages

without me explicitly adding a cat for them.

None of these are subcategories of Category:Wikipedians, so all are technically violation of the guideline.

I also don't think the paragraph telling us to not include copyrighted files lacking a free content license should have been removed without discussion. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Copyrighted files? Why should a guideline be paraphrasing the policy, Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria#Policy dot point #9? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Excellent point Guy Macon. See Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Remove_the_Usercat_reference. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:26, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• I'm going to go against the grain here and just say no, an RfC should not be a first step for something like this. First, there are a bunch of different changes there. Some were very minor. Some were just organizational, without changing content. Some were a little bigger. None were major. A single RfC on all of them would just be a bureaucratic mess, and having a bunch of RfCs for each proposed change is, well, a bureaucratic mess in a different way. I don't agree that any edit to a policy is a major edit that needs an RfC. I would be curious to hear what great effect "Very divisive" being changed to "divisive" would have that can't be resolved on the talk page, for example (which is not to say that there's not a difference -- it's just not a huge change that demands refraining from standard levels of boldness in projectspace). There was discussion about some of them, and anyone else can jump in, contest, discuss, etc. Regarding the two additions that codify practice, I don't see where anyone has contested them. If instead of that SmokeyJoe changed the guideline in some way that was a leap from the way things are currently done, then sure, best to discuss beforehand, but not this stuff. Come on now. This is squarely in the domain of the sensibly bold (and barely bold). I'm not trying to endorse the changes here, btw -- just saying there's no reason for all of this hubbub. Make a change if it's not radical; if someone objects they can undo, and it goes to the talk page. If they're unsatisfied with the discussion, then think about posting to VP or, eventually, an RfC. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
• Holy hell, no, you can't just boldly alter policies and guidelines like that based on local discussions, and attempting to is egregious. You can't just add clauses to policy and claim they "reflect practice". You can't just "improve" the wording in a way that changes the meaning. Policies and guidelines are supposed to reflect the highest level of community consensus, thus trumping any lesser rulings. Beyond the most minor aesthetic or wording changes, policy alterations need to be as widely advertised to the community as possible. If hosting RfCs is too "bureaucratic" for your liking, then stay the hell away from editing policies! I can't believe this even needs to be discussed! ~Swarm~ {talk} 03:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• ^File me under everything that Swarm said. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:56, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose an RFC. There is nothing earth shattering and the section needed a good rewrite. If you don't like something propose a specific change on talk or fix it and see if it sticks. Legacypac (talk) 03:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• The suggestion that users should apply "be bold" to editing policies and guidelines, and "see if it sticks" is unbelievable. Policies and guidelines are the highest form of community consensus. "Seeing if it sticks", on the other hand, is the weakest form of consensus. This may not seem "earth shattering", but if everyone started doing this, our fundamental system would completely break down. ~Swarm~ {talk} 03:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• I broadly support those changes. In recent months, I have seen marked increase in the number accounts created purely to user the userpage as webshost, so some tightening up was long overdue.

I have some sympathy with the calls for an RFC, but that may be excessive. It seems to me that for policy/guidleine changes we need some process which essentially offers wide notification without necessarily requiring a discussion.

That is used in the UK and Scottish parliaments, where it is called the "negative procedure" (see Scottish statutory instrument#Negative_procedure and Statutory instrument (UK)#Negative_resolution_procedure). In both cases, the action proceeds unless a moation is passed to stop it.

On en.wp, we have some processes which are similar in that they proceed unless objected to, but have a lower thrshold of objection: one objection can stop a WP:CFDS within 48 hours, and one objection can stop halts a WP:PROD within 7 days. In each case, there is the option of a full discussion on a contested proposal. Both process are lightweight, but have in common some combination of of local tagging and central listing.

Something similar could be implemented for guidelines, giving us a step in between a local talkpage discussion and a central RFC. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:15, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• Procedurally, if you can't agree, start an RFC. Being a "negative question" doesn't matter, the wording can be "Should we revert to the version of DATE". power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
• While folks sit here and dither about what to do, more changes are being made. I haven't been following them as I don't see the point. It's easy what should be done. All the changes in February should be reverted. Any substantive changes should be made by RfC. If there are multiple substantive changes that need to be made, then there needs to be multiple RfCs unless there is a way of handling them in one. As for supposed procedural, minor, and/or organizational changes, surely they can wait. There's no urgency to any of this. Somehow - I'm sure I don't know how - we have survived all this time without these changes, and we will continue to do so even if no changes are made. We don't need an RfC to remove the changes. We're here. We just need to do it. As for the future, I agree with Ivanvector that the policy on changing policies and guidelines needs to be tightened. This sort of thing happens more often than it should.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Strongly agree that we need to tighten our policy on changing policies and guidelines. Doug Weller talk 13:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
    • +1 Lectonar (talk) 13:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
      • It would be my preference for any proposed changes to a policy page (it's occurred to me that WP:USERPAGE is not actually a policy, so consider this a general comment) to be proposed through an RfC and advertised on WP:CENT as a basic requirement. Policies are supposed to reflect widespread consensus and practice, so an updating process in which a tiny subset of interested users can make changes without wider review is inherently broken. For the current situation, splitting the changes from the last stable version to a subpage draft might be a good approach, such that the guideline remains in its most recently agreed-upon version while the changes are being proposed elsewhere. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

  And of course, in case nobody else has observed it yet (today is payroll so I'm not reading everything), the problem here is that the tiny subset of users have made a controversial change (the user categories thing) and I have no doubt some are already going around making changes to other editors' userpages that don't comply with their new directive. It's only a matter of time before someone pushes back and we have a new drama-fest at ANI. These changes should be undone. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:49, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: I'm passing the buck, obvs, but frankly, unless it's done by an admin as an admin action, I doubt it will last an—hour, perhaps. ——SerialNumber54129 13:56, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I know, I just don't want to throw fuel on the fire unless there's a clear consensus here. Someone uninvolved should probably evaluate this thread. There's no rush. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

It's ironic that on 20 Fby, Legacypac made a change which—certainly at first glance—seems to reflect current AfC practice, which was then reverted with the edit summary Rv bold removal of content that comes out of many past discussions! A reversion to "last stable version" as suggested by Bbb23 qualifies under those grounds also. ——SerialNumber54129 13:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• These changes are obviously challenged. The status quo ante should be restored, and a proper RfC should take place. Nihlus 14:01, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
•  Done Page has been restored to 21st February 2019. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 19:01, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Davey2010: I've reverted your close. First, I think an admin should close this discussion. Second, I don't think your wording matches the consensus so far. QEDK, unless there are instructions to the contrary from the closing admin, all of the changes in February should be reverted. You did not go back far enough. To prevent confusion and because of my unclose, I'm going to revert your revert.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi Bbb23, No worries, As I said I had absolutely no objections to anyone reverting it,

Just my 2c but changes to guidelines and policies IMHO should be discussed on talkpages first but meh that's my 2c. –Davey2010^Talk 00:57, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

@Bbb23: It's the same revision as the one latest of January. I know what I did, there was no mistake, all the changes in February were reverted. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 13:46, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

@QEDK: You're right; my apologies. I was confused by two things: (1) your edit summary ("Restore to 21 Feb 2019 in lieu of RfC") and (2) the fact that you restored it to a February version (not the one in your edit summary), but one that was effectively the January 22 version because of a prior revert.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

It's not an issue, nw. It was the 21 Feb revision, I picked it because it essentially showed the first edit was reverted (which was the start of changes in the month) and the rest restored. Again, I don't mind the revert, I don't really mind the edits in the first place, except the fact they were challenged. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 13:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:PGBOLD is policy. So, go start an RFC about changing that if you don't think bold edits to policies and guidelines should be made, or that changes can't be made because of some concern about how few people were involved.

On that note however, editors who make bold changes to PAG should expect to be reverted and per PGBOLD should generally keep to 0- or 1-RR. I don't think that bar was met here by the editors interested in making these changes. --Izno (talk) 04:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

• After a fairly clear consensus that the changes to the guideline should not have been made without an RfC, this thread has died. I now wish I hadn't undone Davey's closure and reverted QEDK's restoration to the January version of the guidelines.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:06, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• Per above comments its clear that more (even *some* would be nice) discussion is needed before making major changes, I have taken it back to the last diff from Jan. If someone wants to make an RFC and actually advertise it, which should be a requirement for any major change to a wide-ranging policy anyway, go ahead. Only in death does duty end (talk) 02:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Review of re-block

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I am seeking comment on a 60-hour block recently made by BrownHairedGirl and described and discussed here: [29]. The blocked editor previously had a 31-hour block for violating WP:CIVIL, made an unsatisfactory unblock request, and the unblock request was declined, described here: [30]. To be clear, I am only asking for comments on the 60-hour re-block, and not on any other blocks or administrative actions that occurred around that time, and not on civility in general. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• My own take is: Bad block. Please let me begin by saying that I am not in any way defending incivility. I fully accept that it is appropriate for administrators to block for it in some cases. But as I see it, the first blocking admin, Cullen328, determined a 31-hour duration for the initial block, and the unblock request, which was cited by BrownHairedGirl as the reason for the re-block, had already been reviewed by another admin, Drmies, who while having quite rightly declined it, also did not decide on the basis of the request to extend the duration of the block or to revoke talk page access. A few hours after that block had run its course, BrownHairedGirl made the new 60-hour block, under review here, attributing it specifically to the unblock request. Had the blocked user made any further violations after the end of the first block, a new block would have been entirely justified, but that did not happen. In context, the re-block seems to me to be more punitive than preventative, and it raises serious issues about whether admins are free to keep adding new blocks on top of a previous block when additional violations have not occurred. I question whether BrownHairedGirl should have unilaterally overruled the duration of the original block without first consulting with the two previous admins. Although it was not wheel-warring, it raises problems similar to why wheel-warring is not allowed. There was a considerable escalation of the conflict as a result of the re-block, and I think that admins should seek to deescalate, not further escalate, conflicts. In her decision to lift the block, BrownHairedGirl said: "OK, 2 admins requesting an unblock, so I will unblock. But I stand by my point that the community has had enough of MJP's sweary personal attack stuff. It would have been best for the prev block to have been extended as a response to the sweary unblock request, but I accept that at this point it's worth giving MJP some WP:ROPE." I would appreciate if she could clarify whether that means that she did so only to stop the requests by other admins, or also because she recognized the issues that I raise here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• I see very little benefit to having this discussion; it was 4 days ago, and was reversed within a half hour when she realized there was disagreement. And if you have questions for BHG, perhaps her talk page would be a good place to start? --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
  • No one has to comment if they don't want to. I waited a few days before starting this in order to let the dust settle. I expect that this will be a step before taking it to a request for arbitration. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
    • If you're just ticking boxes, and plan to go to ArbCom no matter what, then shouldn't you start with the box "discuss the issue with the editor prior to coming to ANI"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:01, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
      • It seemed to me that there was already discussion in the links above. Maybe I should in fact have gone to her talk page first, but that's now water under the bridge; it certainly isn't a reason to say the block was OK. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:04, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
        • I strongly disagree with your "that's now water under the bridge" conclusion. You should have at that point withdrawn, closed, and collapsed the ANI thread and gone her talk page as soon as you were made aware of the requirement, then reopened it if the talk page discussions did not result in an agreement. It is important to talk things over before going to ANI. Maybe she would have immediately agreed with you. Maybe you would have immediately agreed with her. And even if you couldn't reach an agreement, the talk page discussion would have really helped to focus the ANI case. --Guy Macon (talk)
• She unblocked when people disagreed. Now the editor is oversight blocked indef. Why are we here? Natureium (talk) 23:57, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
  • She had no way of knowing about the oversight block that would happen in the future. There is a difference between lifting a block because people disagreed and lifting it because it was a mistake. And the escalation caused by the re-block may well have led to the future oversighted drama (not that it excuses it). --Tryptofish (talk) 00:01, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• I admit that I was a bit surprised at the 60 hour block, but I am not calling it a bad block. As for the venting against me by the blocked editor, it really didn't bother me at all. If my skin wasn't thick enough to take this type of thing in stride, I wouldn't have agreed to become an administrator. We usually allow a fair amount of leeway for recently blocked editors to blow off steam. I do not object to moving this discussion elsewhere. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• As I see it, blowing off steam, followed by the decision not to extend the original block, raises serious questions about the need for the new block. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• I don't think we can really re-litigate BHG's block now that it's been superseded. I wouldn't have agreed with it myself, but she did rescind it once it became clear that it didn't have much support. I can't see that it made any difference to the drama that followed. Black Kite (talk) 00:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• In the actual train of events, it very much escalated the situation, and although we can only speculate whether it affected the subsequent conduct of the blocked user, I know that user pretty well and I'm pretty sure that it did. I think this needs to be discussed because it raises significant policy considerations. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:17, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• Um. If you believe it raises policy considerations and you believe there was admin misconduct then the best thing to do is go straight to ArbCom, because neither of those things are going to be decided here. Black Kite (talk) 00:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• I figure ArbCom wants to see efforts elsewhere before a case request is made. But I agree with you that the conclusion here is going to be that the discussion will not lead to everything being settled and that ArbCom is likely to need to deal with it. And getting comments from other editors is potentially informative. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• Someone close this pointless thread please. GMG^talk 00:23, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
  • No it is not pointless. I object to your saying that. Let people discuss it. It's not like the sky is falling because I opened this discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

    It's pointless. I was completely against the block as you can tell by my messages left on the talk page, but I see absolutely nothing that can come from this discussion at this point. Nihlus 00:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

If you still are completely against the block, then it's not pointless, just not something that will reach a final resolution here. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Let me rephrase: I see absolutely nothing that can come from any discussions on this topic. Nihlus 01:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• Administrators are free to keep re-blocking editors as many times as they want if they don't like something the editor did, even if there was no repeat of the offense. They have to lift the block if others complain, but otherwise, just keep on blocking. I hope I'm not the only one here who sees a problem with that. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Is that actually stated somewhere in a guideline for admins? ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 00:37, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Heavens, no! I was being sarcastic, to explain the problem succinctly, in the context of someone calling it pointless. But if the conclusion drawn here is that there's nothing wrong with the re-block, then the conclusion effectively means what I put in italics. And I shudder to think that could happen! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

[edit conflict with Atsme] I agree with what's said above. Seeking sanctions here, or seeking to use a discussion here as a basis for sanctions from Arbcom, leans strongly toward WP:PUNISH. Either BrownHairedGirl did nothing wrong, in which case this ought to be cut off immediately, or she did something wrongly, in which case it doesn't particularly matter because the block has been superseded. You say that you're only seeking "comments on the 60-hour re-block, and not on any other blocks or administrative actions that occurred around that time, and not on civility in general." The only reasons to review admin actions are (1) to fix continuing problems, which aren't happening due to the later block, or (2) to fix broader problems, which you say you don't want to talk about. Nyttend (talk) 00:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

If you think she did nothing wrong, you should be able to justify why you feel that way. It sounds like you are confounding WP:NOTPUNITIVE with WP:ADMINACCT. The point here is not to get the block lifted, and that would obviously not make sense. I didn't say that I don't want to talk about broader issues, but I said that I was not asking for comments on other blocks. If you want to point out any problems with those, don't let me stop you. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment/Opinion: I perceive that some people feel a need to (for lack of a better word) vent about the circumstances leading up to MPants' indef, but I do not think this is where to do it. Nor is the MfD of MPants' edit-notice. In my opinion there is nothing to be accomplished at AN by reviewing a block that was reversed by the blocking admin 35 minutes later. The blocking admin gave a clear rationale for her block and her original decline of the appeal, and after feedback/consensus she reversed the block 35 minutes later. Four days after the fact there is no cause to either admonish her or to desyssop her or to take the case to AN or ArbCom. If people want to continue to hash out the entire scenario that led to MPants being indeffed, I suggest some sort of neutral territory that is not an administrator's noticeboard. Perhaps someone's talkpage, or user subpage. In any case, my view is: We are all adults. MPants is an adult. MPants was the orchestrator of his own demise. (BTW, I will not respond further here.) Softlavender (talk) 00:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC); edited 01:52, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I finished venting a few days ago, and I waited a few days before coming here because I wanted everyone else to finish as well. As for MPants being responsible for his own actions, of course that's true, and it's also not the issue here. This really isn't about him, and what he ultimately did to himself was after the block under review here. But if we are going to conclude that: Administrators are free to keep re-blocking editors as many times as they want if they don't like something the editor did, even if there was no repeat of the offense. They have to lift the block if others complain, but otherwise, just keep on blocking, we have a big problem here. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

And she wasn't the one who declined the appeal, so please get the facts right. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Tryptofish: I unblocked because it was clear that there was strong opposition from some other admins.

I recognise the concerns that you express here, but having heard what you and others have to say, I stand by my analysis of the situation, viz

1. MJP has along track record of being aggressively hostile and uncivil, contrary to the core policy WP:CIVIL.
2. MJP was blocked for an extreme act of uncivility
3. MJP's response to that was not to in any way apologise, withdraw or pull back, but one hour later to make an unblock request which was also offensive
4. After about another hour Drmies rightly declined the unblock request
5. The block expired ~ 29 hours after DRmies's decline, which gave more than a whole day for MJP to respond with some retraction of either or both outbursts
6. By then there was no indication that MJP was in any way inclined to moderate his conduct.
7. I appreciate that editors may "let off steam" when blocked, but in this case the "let off steam" was a repetition of the conduct which had led to the block in the first place. In this situation, I believe that the preventive purpose of blocks should be foremost, and that where an editor is clearly determined to continue on the same course, further preventative measures are appropriate
8. This was not in any way wheel-warring. It was addressing the situation which arose 29 hours after the unblock request was declined
9. Given the strength of opposition, I lifted my reblock per WP:ROPE
10. Only hours later, MJP made an even more extreme breach of civility, with sever personal attacks
11. For that, MJP was rightly indef-blocked. Guy Macon described[31] it as an apparent Suicide By Administrator.

In hindsight, I think that my judgement was vindicated. Allowing MJP's return when he was clearly in a destructive frame of my mind turned out to be his undoing. It would have been better for everyone concerned to leave him blocked until he showed some signs of capacity for the anger management which is crucial to a collaborative project.

I am also very saddened to see that in the aftermath of this, Tryptofish's concern is focused on whether my reblock is appropriate, rather than in MJP's long-term pattern of aggressive conduct.

This is a persistent problem on en.wp: some favoured editors are actively encouraged to behave as aggressive wild beasts, and those who seek to challenge them are problematised instead.

The aggresive culture which this breeds is well-documented as driving editors away from en.wp, esp women, who find the culture "sexualized, misogynistic, and aggressive".

I have personally communicated with scores of women who are skilled researchers and fine writers, but whose contributions to en.wp studiously avoid all the centralised discussion fora such as XFD, AN, ANI, VP, precisely in order to avoid these forms of extreme aggression. I think in particular of one woman with whom I had private discussion some years; she edited in an obscure corner of en.wp, keeping out of the conflicts, but actively encouraged her daughters to resist calls for more women to edit en.wp, because she did not want them to expose themselves to such a hostile environment. Litt;le wonder that en.wp's gender gap remains so huge.

When she was Exec Director of the WMF, Sue Gardner made tackling these cultural barriers a priority. Sadly, she made little progress, and her the priorities of Sue's very fine successors have lain elsewhere.

It is deplorable that when en.wp is getting on for two decades old, we have a situation like this where an enabler and encourager of a serially uncivil and aggressive editor comes to complain that his favourite aggressor was treated too harshly. I see no sign that Tryptofish anticipates any boomerang effect from this exercise of trying to problematise someone who tried to uphold WP:CIVIL ... and sadly, I fear that in that respect alone, Tryptofish's judgement is right.

I doubt that I will participate any further in this discussion. I have seen this phenomenon several times before over the years, where the misconduct of a serially aggressive editor is normalised even as it escalates, and eventually reaches a point where even the defensive capacity of a team of enablers is insufficient ... and then the enablers turn on those who dared have the shocking and appalling impudence to try to restrain the ogre's misconduct. It's all great fodder for sociological researchers, but no way to run a collaborative project where civility is a core policy.

So I'll repeat that in the same circumstances I would probably make similar judgmenets again. Where a highly aggressive editor continued their aggression while blocked, I would consider extending the block or-blocking for the new offence. And if there was a similar response, I'd likely follow up as I did here, by lifting the block. I continue to hope that some day en.w will treat WP:CIVIL as if it was actual policy rather than a piece of pious poetry which should not be allowed to impede the aggressive posturing of a big beasts with a battleground mentality and a fan club; but I am not holding my breath. I expect that those sociologists will be busy for a good while yet.

Codladh sámh. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:20, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed reply. I mean that: thank you. I have no argument with much of what you say about civility: yes, it is a serious problem. I don't justify what MPants did after your block – but you had no way of seeing into the future when you made the block. And if anyone thinks that I deserve a boomerang for raising the issues here, go right ahead. But I want to focus specifically on the issue of the re-block itself. You say that you made the re-block because "The block expired ~ 29 hours after DRmies's decline, which gave more than a whole day for MJP to respond with some retraction of either or both outbursts" and he did not. Actually, it was only about an hour or two after the end of the block, not more than a whole day. And he made no edits at all during that time, so he never had any opportunity to say anything about it. So: you issued a new block because he made no edits in the short time after the first block was over. You say that you "recognize" my concerns, but it sounds as though you do not agree with them. It also sounds like you are willing to make other re-blocks in the future when editors who were incivil do not issue an explicit retraction within a given amount of time after the first block, even if they have not repeated the incivility. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, a boomerang is warranted. You're trying to get someone punished, and you feel so strongly that you demand that I explain my reasoning for saying that BHG is innocent: you didn't even read to see that I was offering two options, innocent or not-innocent. When you leap on someone so hard that you assume that neutral parties are your opponents, it's time for someone else to get blocked 60-hours for personal attacks or harassment. Nyttend (talk) 01:43, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Are you threatening to block me? --Tryptofish (talk) 01:44, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

OK, that's over the line. You know full well that such a block would be forbidden by WP:INVOLVED. Any editor is free to discuss or even call for you being blocked under WP:BOOMERANG It comes with filing a report at ANI. (Note that I have not expressed any opinion about whether you should be blocked). --Guy Macon (talk) 02:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Tryptofish: Thanks for your civil reply. I have said what I need to say about my views, but will correct you a point of fact on the timeline.

I referred to situation which arose 29 hours after the unblock request was declined. You responded with a different measure Actually, it was only about an hour or two after the end of the block, not more than a whole day.

In reality both points of fact are accurate, but your reply misrepresented my assertion. I hope that was unintentional.

Here's the timeline.

1. 03:28, 20 February 2019: Cullen328 blocked MFP for 31 hours
2. 03:28, 20 February 2019: Cullen328 notified[32] MJP of a 31-hour-block
3. 04:07, 20 February 2019‎: MJP posted[33] a sweary unblock request
4. 05:18, 20 February 2019‎; Drmies declined[34] the unblock request
5. 10:28, 21 February 2019‎: the 31 hour block expired
6. 12:01, 21 February 201: I re-blocked MJP

So at the point of my reblock, the elapsed time since the unblock decline was just under 31 hours. That is a little more than the ~29 hours. It was just under two hours since the block expired, which is similar to your claim of an hour or two.

You have taken the opportunity to open an ANI thread alleging misconduct on my part. Much as I disagree with your focus on criticising someone who made best efforts to restrain a miscreant, you are entitled to express that view. But when you are posting prolifically about my alleged badness, and assembling a charge sheet against me saying explicitly that you expect that this will be a step before taking it to a request for arbitration, then you have a responsibility to take more care with the facts. Unlike a few days ago, this is not happening in real time, so there is no urgency; you have all the time you want to check before you reply. Waywardness with facts and misrepresenting the person you are complaining about are unlikely to be part of a good strategy for avoiding the boomerangs.

Codladh sámh. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

You are quite right about the time sequence, and I was actually in the process of correcting what I said about that when I edit conflicted with your reply. It sounded to me at first like you were referring to the time after the first block had expired. I question whether we can really read anything into a blocked editor's not posting anything during the time they are blocked, once the unblock request was declined. So I continue to hold the opinion that he never really had an opportunity to say anything before your re-block. Again, my concern is not about whether editors should be blocked for incivility; it's about making re-blocks in the absence of evidence of continuing problems, and that's not the same thing as silence meaning that problems will continue. I really wish that you would simply acknowledge that. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:20, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

If civility is a problem, a serious problem, and I certainly think it is, then having sysops who are willing to make tough decisions in trying to hold that line is a good thing. If a sysop oversteps and then accepts the feedback of other editors that they have overstepped that too is a good thing. Either BHG read the situation currently and MPants was not ready to be civil or the reblock so upset MPants that he decided to get himself thrown off the project. If the former well good for her. If the latter well that seems truly unpredictable and I'm not sure what lessons we can learn from that now. I hope that Cullen and BHG will continue to make tough decisions, in whatever direction that might mean, to uphold civility going forward. Best wishes, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:10, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Tough decisions, absolutely. Wrong decisions, no. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• This should be called "Re-review of reblock", since it was already reviewed and undone by the reblocker. I feel a bit in the middle of this--somehow my unblock request has become a stick to cudgel BHG with--like, "if Drmies didn't lengthen the block or revoke TPA, who does BHG think she is?" That ain't right. We're admins because we're supposed to have minds of our own, and while (as we all saw) I didn't increase the block despite the insulting unblock request, that doesn't mean I was right. (I didn't lengthen the block because I figured Cullen wouldn't be bothered by the attempt to insult him, and because I generally am fine with some venting, but that's just me.) Re-reviewing this as if we're ticking a box before going to ArbCom is disruptive. I will not, like Nyttend, suggest this is blockworthy, but I do think this is needlessly inflammatory. Tryptofish, I know you as someone with plenty of sense. I hope you don't take this to ArbCom. If you do, I am pretty sure it will not be accepted, nor do I know what your charge might be--that the reblock was voted down hardly means that BHG has lost the community's trust. But needlessly taking a well-respected admin and fine colleague to ArbCom damages your own credibility. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 02:19, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate the kind words, but I honestly do not think that I am being disruptive. I have sincere concerns here. And I am listening to the comments from others here. As for my credibility, I don't think that should be damaged by having sincere concerns. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

If you have sincere concerns, you sincerely discuss them on the user's talk page. This just comes across as retaliatory griefing. ~Swarm~ {talk} 02:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm hardly a griefer, but I'm closing this. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm of the mind to add WP:RECHEW as a shortcut to AN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Main article: Cud --Guy Macon (talk) 03:56, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Further information: User talk:Tryptofish#Post-ANI, re MJP. And please keep the cud to yourselves. --Tryptofish (talk) 04:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

General sanctions procedure

A recent discussion on this noticeboard established consensus that non-extended-confirmed editors are prohibited from editing articles related to the India-Pakistan conflict (link). Several administrators have since begun enforcing this, using EC-protection. This prohibition is, however, not documented anywhere else that I am aware of. Do we need a page to log these protections? Or, at the very least, a page documenting this discussion, where people unaware of it can be pointed? What about documenting these at WP:GS? Vanamonde (Talk) 17:17, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

The relevant measure could have been taken under the existing India–Pakistan discretionary sanctions, which were authorised by ArbCom. However, if this is an additional community-authorised general sanction, then yes, it should be documented at WP:GS. I would suggest that a better option might be to petition ArbCom at WP:ARCA to 'take over' this new community measure, and incorporate it into the existing ArbCom sanctions...that seems to be a more satisfying result, and avoids the problem of multiple overlapping bureaucracies. RGloucester — ☎ 17:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

These are different from existing sanctions, in that even ARBIPA discretionary sanctions would not normally allow preemptive protection, which is what this was all about. I'm not keen on asking ARBCOM to take this over: the effort involved would outweigh the reduction in bureaucracy, IMO. I'm willing to do the paperwork of documentation. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:35, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I see now that this is a completely new regime. It should be logged at WP:GS. However, I find it unfortunate that this was not implemented under the existing authorisation. In any case, I guess that's that. RGloucester — ☎ 17:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I've added the restriction to WP:GS#Community-authorised sanctions. RGloucester — ☎ 17:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

This should have been followed up. and we need a log which would be reasonably easy to find (and in any case, a link should follow from WP:GS). Any idea what the best location would be?--Ymblanter (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, there is a log on this page already, under WP:AN#Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection, though it seems not to be pulling in the protection reasons from the logs any more. Do we usually do separate logs for general sanctions? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:00, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

And is there a log for ARBPIA pages put under EC protection as a DS in that topic? I don't think there is but I don't work in that topic often. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:01, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Ivanvector: yep, there is. Vanamonde93, I'd just create a new general sanctions page to log it. It can be fairly low key since I think we're just talking about protections. See WP:GS/Crypto for an example of a GS log page. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:04, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

@TonyBallioni: Cheers. That was the sort of page I was thinking of, yes, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't contributing unnecessarily to our proliferation of policy pages. I'll create that in a few hours. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I backwardsded up the acronyms again, didn't I? I'll keep that in mind for future. If we create a GS log page for this, can we link to it from the authorized sanctions page (where WP:INDIAPAKISTAN30500 now targets)? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:07, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Or maybe I backwards them up? My edit conflict was just realizing what you meant. There's also a log for that: Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2019#Extended_confirmed_protections. And yeah, I actually think the redirect should just go to the main sanctions page. That's how it works for all other GS (see WP:GS/Crypto and WP:GS/PW). TonyBallioni (talk) 18:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

• How's this as a landing page: Wikipedia:General sanctions/India-Pakistan conflict? Abecedare (talk) 18:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Looks good to me, thanks, Abecedare. I hope admins start using it. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:29, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Unsourced additions to BLPs by Hellodarknessmyoldfriendivecome

Editor Hellodarknessmyoldfriendivecome (contribs) has been adding unsourced claims to bios of entertainers for some time, despite being repeatedly warned about it including two level 4 warnings. In this edit to Adele Romanski, she actually removed a reference added by an anon editor an hour earlier, and added a pile of unsourced claims about awards won. A few hours later at Tony McNamara (writer), another unsourced claim of an award nomination. Flapjacktastic (talk) 09:34, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Help with a rangeblock

So we're getting constant vandalism on Return of the Jedi from a set of moving Costa Rican IP addesses. This vandalism goes back many years and is always the same pattern. It's a bit like playing whack a mole, but this editor is the only disruption on the article. We have it set to pending changes, but it's still a constant battle. I'd rather not protect an entire article for one editor, so it looks like a rangeblock may be in order. However in all my years I've never done a rangeblock so I'd like some assistance, or someone else to do it as I could be determined to be involved here as I do occasionally edit the article other than just reverting the vandalism.

In the last year or so we've seen these edits from the following IP addresses.

• 186.26.116.133
• 186.26.127.152
• 186.26.127.176
• 186.26.116.223
• 186.26.127.128
• 186.26.127.185
• 186.26.116.7
• 186.176.253.197
• 200.122.170.70
• 201.198.246.145

The last one appeared to be static for some time, but hasn't been edited from in a while. I'm seeing mostly the 186.26 ranges but I'm unsure as to the impact such a range block would have. Any advice, help? Thanks in advance. Canterbury Tail talk 13:42, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

This editor is only targeting the one article, right? Maybe semi-protection would be a better choice. Anyway, blocking 186.26.116.0/24 and 186.26.127.0/24 won't stop this person from editing, but it would probably slow them down considerably. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree with NRP, but a block of 186.26.116.0/24 looks like it would cause some collateral damage. Semi protection would probably be a better option than either rangeblocks or the current PC1. —DoRD (talk)​ 15:41, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I'll try a semi-protect. See if that discourages them enough to not come back when it expires. Hasn't in the past, but maybe they'll finally get bored with this. Thanks all. Canterbury Tail talk 15:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation re-branding discussion/planning

See the recent Foundation blog post at Leading with Wikipedia: A brand proposal for 2030 and the ongoing discussion on Meta at m:Communications/Wikimedia brands/2030 research and planning/community review. Just dropping a few public notifications since I'm not sure this project has been otherwise notified. GMG^talk 15:03, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Mistaken page move

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It appears that User:Mordebee was trying to correct the title of Family Tree DNA, but mistakenly moved ii to the Wikipedia namespace as Wikipedia:FamilyTreeDNA. I'm not sure if the title change is warranted and also not sure if simply reverting the move is sufficient or if an administrator needs to do the clean up. FWIW, I think the "move" was made in good faith, but it probably should be discussed on the article's talk page first. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I've reverted the move. No opinion on whether is should be changed or not, but it was requested to be moved to that in 2013. Nihlus 00:53, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that Nihlus. Does the redirect from Wikipedia:FamilyTreeDNA need to be tagged for speedy deletion as a cross namespace redirect or is it OK as is? -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:59, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Tagged. Nihlus 01:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done, deleted G6. Thanks, ansh666 01:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

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Reporting harassment

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I will report Diannaa and Reaper Eternal for sabotaging my work on Lindha Kallerdahl and Olli Soikkeli, and for accusing me of close paraphrasing and plagiarism without leaving me any chance to defend myself, and if necessary the opportunity to correct the problem. I will also report DoRD for sanctioning me without leaving me a chance to meet the attacks on my work. I appreciate criticism of my work, if I get the chance to meet the criticism. I am afraid there is a huge democratic problem on Wikipedia that ought to be handeled. Knuand (talk) 15:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

@Knuand: You've been here a while so you avoid the level 1 template reminding you to "assume your fellow editors are here to improve rather than harm the project", but it's pretty poor to accuse people of "sabotage" when WP:COPYRIGHT is clearly a policy with legal considerations and Such a situation should be treated seriously, as copyright violations not only harm Wikipedia's redistributability, but also create legal issues.

Personally I'd be taking their advice, and, indeed, asking them for more: but if you really feel the need to make this complaint, you should move it to WP:ANI; bearing in mind, of course, that once there, the filer's behaviour is examined as well as those they file against. Be mindful.

On the other hand, if you don't want to file there...you should withdraw this WP:ASPERSION immediately. Happy editing! ——SerialNumber54129 15:08, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

PS: Also see WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. ——SerialNumber54129 15:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

PPS: Actually, having reviewed your edits, I'm very tempted to file the case for you; your talk page is an absolute litany of advice/reminders/instructions as to the importance of copyright and attribution on Wikpedia going back at least to 2013. Over five years later and you have clearly ignored every piece of advice, every remnder, and every instruction you have received, instead responding with specious incivility. Mind you, I think by now, even an acknowledgement that there's a problem might be too late. ——SerialNumber54129 15:17, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Copying Serial Number's reply from the AN Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:42, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

• I am very happy to receive critisixm and advice on what i write. The problem here is that the texts in matter was deleted, and the advice was that the text included close paraphrasing and plagiarism, with no posibility for me to go into the substant matter. What I call for is a more creative way of giving critisism and advice. Just "using a fist" in this way, is subjected to create a sharp response. Open the evaluation system up, and it will give much better result! Knuand (talk) 16:47, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
  • PS! My editing is not happy, when deleted ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knuand (talk • contribs)

• I'd like to commend Diannaa, Reaper, and DoRD for their patience, and suggest that either (a) Knuard be indef blocked now for ignoring 5 years worth of advice and warnings, or (b) if this ever happens again, Knuard be indef blocked. I suppose if there are lots of people in this thread who all tell him that he's deeply in the wrong, it's conceivable he'll believe it this time, so maybe people want to take that chance. But it seems kind of unlikely. I'd support either option. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

• Knuand: Please take this advice seriously: When your writing is found to be in violation of copyright, it must be deleted immediately and without pause. This is a legal issue, and not a matter where we can hold your hands. Sure, we'll try to teach you and explain in civil terms why your writing is a violation of copyright, but understand that explanation does not obviate the need to remove the problematic text. This isn't like disagreements over specific phrasing or discussions about the appropriateness of a source. Copyvios are serious business, and we will ALWAYS delete them RIGHT AWAY. Also, it looks from your talk page that people have been trying, for 5 years or so, to explain these problems to you. If those people are starting to get curt, that is understandable. If I had to explain the same thing to someone for 5 straight years, and if over that time they never listened to me and ignored every thing I said, I might get a little ornery too. Please try to learn how to write your own, completely original, made-it-up-in-your-own-head and wrote-it-yourself-with-your-own-typing text for every addition you make to Wikipedia. We use and cite our sources for ideas, but the actual text you create must be your own. --Jayron32 17:18, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

• I intended to post something like this after I tried (but failed) to move this over from WT:AN. Reaper Eternal made me aware of some close paraphrasing in a recently-created article by Knuand, and a glance at their contributions turned up another questionable article, so I went to their talk page to leave a message. When I saw all of the old warnings about the same problem, I revoked autopatrolled and then left a message. I ended up using revdel on those articles, and later on Knuand's talk. I don't have the expertise, time, or patience to go through all their contributions, so I asked for help from Diannaa, but since she's too busy to take on another copyvio case, I agreed to keep an eye on Knuand's future contributions. Unfortunately, they seem reluctant to heed the warnings they've received, and I think that the fact that English isn't their native language[35] is probably exacerbating the issue. —DoRD (talk)​ 18:45, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Removing autopatrolled is a good idea. I suspect we also need to give Knuand a topic ban from creating articles outside of the WP:AFC process. While I've not found any further copyvios (yet), I am seeing a lot of articles that I would not have published because of AfD concerns. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
    • For example, Borealis (festival) and Risør kammermusikkfest do not cite any independent sources. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• I've gone with Floquenbeam's first suggestion. Copyright is a CIR issue, and when you've shown that you're unwilling to listen to feedback and instead you're being harassed, we have to block until it's clear you aren't going to violate the copyright policy again. Any admin is free to lift this block if they are convinced that the issues won't occur again in the future. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:01, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

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User:Balesucks

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I just wanted to ask, wasn't sure where to put this, I didn't know if the username violates any policy or not. Thought I just post here. The username appears to be anti Gareth Bale, really wasn't sure if you're allowed usernames like that or not. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I just took care of it. In the future, if you come across any more username violations, the correct noticeboard is WP:UAA. Thanks! --Jayron32 17:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

k, cheers, didn't know that noticeboard, I might forget it in a month or two!! Govvy (talk) 17:18, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

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Thousands of Portals

The purpose of this posting is to discuss portals, hundreds of portals. There is already discussion at Village pump (Proposals) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Hiatus_on_mass_creation_of_Portals) to stop the creation of large numbers of portals by User:The Transhumanist, and the consensus is going strongly in favor of a hiatus, and there have been no new portals created since 22 February, but there has been no agreement to stop the creation of portals. The discussion at VPR appears to have slowed down, with a very clear consensus for some sort of hiatus, although it is not clear whether everyone agrees that the consensus is to stop the semi-automated creation of portals, or to stop the semi-automated creation of portals by TTH, or to stop all creation of portals by TTH (since there seems to be disagreement on what is semi-automated creation). Some editors have suggested that these portals are the equivalent of redirects by Neelix that warrant mass destruction. Anyway, proposals at VPR are just that, proposals. I am bringing the discussion here.

Perhaps I don’t understand, but User:The Transhumanist appears to be saying that we need to use portals as an experiment in navigation and in innovation. I am not sure that I understand whether, by experiment, they mean testing, a new initiative, or what, but I am not sure that I understand what is being innovated, or why it requires hundreds or thousands of portals. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Note that the mass hiatus wasn't on me per se, but applicable in general. It applies to everyone. It's so that nobody mass creates portals for the time being. That includes me.    — The Transhumanist   05:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

An Example and Some Comments

One of the portals that has been proposed by User:Legacypac for deletion is Portal:English language. A look at it, with its error messages, is sadly informative. It was one of Wikipedia's earliest portals, preceding the involvement of the current portal team of TTH and a few other editors. However, the current portal team has made breaking changes to Portal:English language, apparently in order to attempt to improve the maintenance of portals. They apparently don't know how to keep our existing portals working, so what business do they have creating thousands of additional portals? We are told that the new portals are maintenance-free or nearly maintenance-free, but have the new portals been created at the cost of breaking existing portals? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Also, TTH says, above, that there is a hiatus that applies to everyone so that nobody mass creates portals for the time being. What is meant by mass creation, as opposed to individual creation? Are they agreeing not to create any portals for the time being? How long a time? Will they defer the creation of any new portals until (and unless) there is a consensus arrived at the criteria for the creation and maintenance of new portals? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Also, if any editor wishes to propose mass deletion of portals, similar to Neely redirects, that can be Proposal 3 (or 4). Robert McClenon (talk) 03:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Further investigation found 2 of the 8 portals linked off the top of the Mainpage had similar Red Script Errors where content should be. User:Moxy has now reverted these to pre-automation status. A lot of effort goes into keeping content linked from the Mainpage error free, yet this little Portal Project group replaced featured article quality portals with automated junk. Legacypac (talk) 03:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 1: Interim Topic-Ban on New Portals

I propose a topic-ban on the creation of portals by User:The Transhumanist for three months, to provide time for the development of new guidelines on portals, to provide time to dispose of some of the portals at MFD, and to provide time to consider whether it is necessary to mass-destroy portals. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:02, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support the true number of portal creations by this user appears to be around 3500 portals since July 2018 (claims this here [36]). There were less than 1700 portals prior. On their talk they said it takes them 3 mins. 3 minutes is not enough time to properly consider content or what should be included. After we get a few automated portals deleted at MFD and the VP discussion reaches some closure I feel strongly we need to delete all the automated portals as a really bad idea. The template that automates these is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2019_February_28#Template:Basic_portal_start_page Further, even though TTH disputes semi-automated creation here he says he uses "semi-automated methods of construction" and is using a "alpha-version script in development that speeds the process further" [37] Legacypac (talk) 03:12, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. I need to investigate this issue a little further, but I was quite concerned about this before I even saw the thread, because I discovered Portal:Ursula K. Le Guin a few months ago. I've written a considerable portion of the content about Le Guin on Wikipedia, and even I think it's too narrow a topic for a portal; and when I raised this on the talk page, Transhumanist didn't respond, though they've been active. Transhumanist has been around for a while, so if they're willing to voluntarily stop creating portals while guidelines are worked out, I don't see a need for a formal restriction. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:21, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Response from The Transhumanist – The proposer of the hiatus, User:UnitedStatesian, acknowledged that my efforts have been in good faith. Note also that no rules have been broken (to my knowledge) – I carefully went over the existing mass creation rule and portal scope rule before starting. I have been a participant in the hiatus of mass creation discussion, and have voluntarily ceased portal creation since Feb 21, so as not to aggravate the other participants of that discussion. (What purpose would that serve?) I wish the matter to be resolved as much as anyone else. Since scope is actively being discussed over at the portals guideline talk page, it makes little sense to create pages that might be removed shortly thereafter based on new creation criteria. I plan on participating in the discussions, perhaps continue working on (existing) portals, and I have no plans to defy the mass creation hiatus. Nor do I plan on pushing the envelope any further. The VPR community has expressed a consensus that mass creation be halted. Robert McClenon is seeking to go beyond community consensus specifically to stop me from creating any portals at all, which is not what the community decided. If editors in general are allowed to create portals, just not mass create them, as the response to UnitedStatesian's proposal has indicated, why should I be singled out here? A topic-ban would be unjustified given the circumstances, and would be punitive in nature. In such a case, I would like to know what I was being punished for. Sincerely,    — The Transhumanist   06:20, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support, given Transhumanist's utter refusal to listen to the input at the Proposals thread during the last days, or anywhere else for that matter. Would go further and support a full, indefinite topic ban or even site ban. Every time I've encountered The Transhumanist over the years, it was invariably over some pattern of mindless mechanistic mass creation of contentless pages, which he then kept pushing aggressively and single-mindedly into everybody's face. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:18, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

And now we need to clean this mess up. It took me far too long to find and bundle thirty pages for deletion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Districts of India Portals compared to the 3 minutes a piece he took to create them, but better to head this off before he starts into the other 690 odd Indian districts. Legacypac (talk) 07:33, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

• Quoted Comment on scale of this issue "Since July 1st (after WP:ENDPORTALS was over), over 4500 portals, excluding redirects, have been created (quarry:query/33793); the Transhumanist created more than 3500 (quarry:query/33795); of those, at least 561 were created with a summary along the lines of Started portal, in tab batch save, after batch was inspected: image slideshow minimum 2 pics, no empty sections. No visible formatting or Lua errors upon save, but there may be intermittent errors; report such bugs at WT:WPPORTD so that they can be fixed. Thank you. (quarry:query/33794). Just a note --DannyS712 (talk) 04:42, 27 February 2019 (UTC)" (end quote) |This off a base of just under 1800 Portals existing in July 2018. Legacypac (talk) 07:49, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Given the history with TTH—who has been pulling this same kind of "create an unwanted megaproject, force it through without discussion, and expect the rest of us to waste our time maintaining it" stunt for well over a decade (anyone remember The Award Center? Wikipedia:WikiProject Outlines? The Admin School?) and always tries the same "well, it wasn't explicitly banned so I assumed it was what you wanted" defense when called out on it, I'd strongly support a full and permanent topic ban and wouldn't be opposed to a site ban; anyone who's been here for as long as TTH and still can't see the issue with Portal:Yogurts, Portal:Rutland or Portal:A Flock of Seagulls is someone who's either being intentionally disruptive or is wilfully refusing to abide by Wikipedia's norms. ‑ Iridescent 08:26, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support temporary topic ban as a first step. We can look at a site ban if he ignores the topic ban. PhilKnight (talk) 08:32, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support A topic ban is necessary while the issue is discussed and mass deletion considered. Adding thousands of inadequate and unmaintainable pages is not helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 09:39, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support A generally-accepted principle of Wikipedia editing is that people who add content, and especially established editors, help to maintain it. Even assuming the best about Transhumanist here, I can't see how they can possibly do this with all these obscure portals. A ban on creating more of them has to be the first step. Nick-D (talk) 10:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Reluctantly Support We need time to curate and prune the low-quality portals, otherwise someone will panic and start deleting portals outright. 1:1 (topic to portal) parity is a nice goal, but it isn't readily achievable without the content to fill those portals.--Auric talk 11:33, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support: TTH's approach seems rather cavalier at the moment. A change, as they say, is as good as a test. ——SerialNumber54129 11:58, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose/Wait Let's see if he complies with the eventual results of the discussion at VPP. If he voluntarily agrees to stop, based on community input, then sanctions are not necessary. This seems like overkill right now. First, let the community guidelines pass, THEN let him violate those before we rush to ban. --Jayron32 12:13, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Massive Oppose - why the rush to ban? - the idea that giving a TBAN is the only appropriate means is bonkers - there are ongoing discussions. Currently you are trying to TBAN someone who hasn't broken policy. Let's get the agreements in, see if they stop and only then make any action Nosebagbear (talk) 12:18, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: Isn't this all very similar to the mass creation of "Outline of" articles by The Transhumanist that met with the same kind of opposition (and tanked an RFA) 10 years ago? If so, then I'd say a topic ban might be in order.--Atlan (talk) 13:37, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, it is. UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support this or a complete topic ban from portals or if this continues simply a complete ban. His latest reply here shows such a complete WP:IDHT attitude, with utterly founded claims about the need to have thousands of portals to be able to find and fix issues (even though many of the now reported issues appear in portals from months ago already), and on the other hand that they have now trouble finding and fixing flaws: "With Legacypac and others actively nominating the new portals for deletion at MfD, our opportunities for improving them and discovering and fixing design flaws are diminishing quickly.", even though perhaps 2 or 3% of the new portals have been nominated, and more than enough similar problematic ones remain to work on (e.g. the inclusion of a DYK which links to red herring on the Portal:Forage fish...). Statements like "Legacypac's approach is to recommend deletion of the new type of portal due to design flaws such as this. " shows a thorough lack of understanding of why these MfDs are made and why so many people support them. The designs flaws are just a small part of the reason for deletion, the lack of interest in, maintenance of, and contents for many of these portals are much more important. Fram (talk) 14:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
  • The MfDs are potentially a prelude to an RfC, which may accelerate the process of deletion. With that in mind, the potential shrinkage is worrisome. I'm so tired, I forgot to mention it above.    — The Transhumanist   14:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

The MfDs, which impact a tiny portion of these creations but a decent sample of various types of topics, are very useful for finding out what the community finds acceptable or desirable. The MfDs are consensus building (something you forgot/ignored). Soon we will be able to craft acceptance and deletion criteria based on the MfD results. That's how notability and other guidelines get developed, precedent. Legacypac (talk) 15:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

• Unnecessary Yes, they need to stop, but they have already agreed to do so (see above: [I] have voluntarily ceased portal creation since Feb 21, so as not to aggravate the other participants of that discussion), and they are unlikely to kneecap themselves by continuing under the massive scrutiny now present. Let's be civil and spare them the block log entry. Current discussion should drive the portal thing towards some practical steps that will likely include the deletion of most of the offending portals, and some agreed-on guideline that prevents mass creation from occurring again. Let's focus on that. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support – The unilateral creation of thousands of portals must stop. This has been driven largely by one editor, who has made the creation and preservation of portals his or her singular objective. We've seen since the portals RfC that this user will stop at nothing to continue the march of portals...regardless of community concerns, and regardless of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Removing him or her from the portal topic area is the only way to prevent further disruption. RGloucester — ☎ 15:09, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support - as a first step. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Unnecessary per Elmidae. Enterprisey (talk!) 19:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Unnecessary at this time as the editor has already agreed to stop and discussions are ongoing. Jonathunder (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support Although TTH seerms to be acting in good faith he just don't know when to stop, so the community has to do it for them. Miniapolis 23:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Reluctant support TT was one of the first users that was ever nice to me, many years ago, so I'd really rather not, but this is way out of line. Personally tripling the number of portals, a WP feature that almost nobody uses, and with apparenrly very little consideration to what subjects actualy merit a portal is grossly iresponsible. I get that they were upset at the proposed removal of portals, but this is a ridiculous overreaction that benefits nobody, and if they can't see that then a formal restriction is necessary. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:20, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support per User:Fram, and I assume it would also cover conversions of "old-style" Portals to the problematic one-page versions, as well as adding portal links to any article in the mainspace, and all other Portal-related editing. WP:IDHT is spot on: in all of these Portal-related discussions, TTH has again shown what is to me a shocking failure of self-examination: no "Gee, this is another case where a broad swath of the community seems to have a major issue with my behavior, and thus should cause me to step back and assess whether there is 1) anything that, in retrospect, I should I have done differently, and 2) anything I can do now to a) try to mitigate the damage and/or b) regain the communitity's good favor." TTH's factual statement that "I have not created any new Portals since Feb. 21" is meaningless as a commitment to future behavior. UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:24, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• Unnecessary As mentioned above, moving to preemptively TBAN an editor who has already agreed to stop while discussion is underway serves no purpose here. If they choose to ignore the community consensus, then we can discuss further preventative measures, but doing so now is premature. As an aside, most of those red errors that are being reported are simple fixes, so anyone who finds one can post a note on WT:WPPORT for one of our editors to fix, or simply add |broken=yes to the {{Portal maintenance status}} template at the top of the page. — AfroThundr ^{(u · t · c)} 06:11, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 2 - Indefinite ban on page creation

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Helpful comments above lead me to these numerous Drafts by User:The Transhumanist (ranging from 1 to 12 years old) => Wikipedia:WikiProject_Outlines#Outline_starts:. This is an obsession with mass creation of content no one wants. He has been creating hundreds of useless pages for years and at least 3500 useless automated Portals in the last few months. He has used up his allotment of lifetime page creations on Wikipedia and has a maintenance job to do now on his creations. He should also be working on removal of these useless pages. Therefore I propose a TBAN on page creations in all namespaces, and a TBAN on moves of pages into Mainspace or Portalspace (to prevent the moving of presetup but now empty existing drafts into mainspace), with the following exceptions: Starting an XfD (so he can assist in cleaning yup his mess) and talkpages of other users (for vandal warning etc so he can maintain quality on his creations) and talkpages in general of any existing page. TBAN may be appealed to AN which would want to approve a specific plan for the types of pages he wants to create.

• Support as proposer Legacypac (talk) 10:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose in current form - a TBAN on page creations in all namespaces is too drastic, give how many other namespaces that cuts off. I can understand prohibition on mainspace, portalspace, wikipedia space, or even userspace. But TTH not being able to start talk pages? To upload files? To start community books? That's unnecessary. --DannyS712 (talk) 10:57, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

  I explicitly exempted talkpages of users but modified so all talkpages could be allowed. If he wants to create 500 books he should get permission. If there is a desire to create articles, he could ask for a relaxation, going through AfC for example, but with a preapproved plan. Legacypac (talk) 11:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose This seems overbroad, locking down the English Wikipedia over one user. --Auric talk 11:20, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

  Umm, this user has a long history of mass page creations. When people object he says no one told him he could not do it. A restriction would not prevent him from creating pages, it would just require him to get the plan preapproved. I don't know what crazy idea he might try next, so block everything except what he gets the community to agree to first. Legacypac (talk) 11:26, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

  The problem isn’t page creation, it’s MASS page creation (usually using automated tools). Essentially, TTH routinely sacrifices quality for the sake of volume. It is the focus on volume that needs addressing. Blueboar (talk) 12:20, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

  Yes MASS creation. We don't know what he will MASS create next, so let him propose what he wants to create BEFORE he creates it. If his idea is reasonable, great, but if not we save a ton of work and drama. Legacypac (talk) 12:24, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

  So why does the original proposal not ban him from mass creation? --Izno (talk) 13:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

  Because 3500 pages [38] is not Mass Creation according to his post near the top of the VPP thread: "Please clarify what you mean by "mass creation"; the figure provided above is less than 10 new pages per day per editor, which has never been considered mass creation by any WP standard. Also, please clarify what you mean by "semi-automated", since all software programs, including Wikipedia's internal text editor, may be considered semi-automated. Thank you. — The Transhumanist 19:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC)"[39] Legacypac (talk) 13:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - the problem is limited to the Portal: namespace; there is no evidence provided that there is a problem in any other namespace (I disagree with the foregone conclusion presented about outlines). This is overreaching by a wide margin. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:33, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 3: Relax tagging and notification requirements for Grouped Portal MfDs

Creating group MfDs for portals is almost as hard as creating one of these portals. If you use twinkle it creates a bunch of redundent discussion pages and floods the creator's talkpage with templates. TheTranshuminist is insisting every page in a group nomination be tagged for deletion [40]. He is technically correct, but this generates a lot of extra work for no real benefit. Notifying the creator with the first nom in the group should be sufficient. It is not like there are tons of editors with a vested interest in an a given district of India portal. I expect there will be a few more group nominations so addressing this will speed this up. Legacypac (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, there is no notification requirement that I'm aware of , so I think you can consider that relaxed. Tagging however, is usually considered a hard-and-fast requirement. It isn't exactly fair to discuss deleting a page while not giving any indication to users watching that page. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:13, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

But in this particular case, there is no realistic expectation that there are any page watchers to begin with, other than the single individual who created them all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:19, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps any change to the requirements should wait until until it has been agreed which topics merit a portal. There is no urgent need to carry out a mass deletion before deciding what to keep. Certes (talk) 18:22, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Grouped MfDs create precedent and help us create policy based on the result. For example if 20+ District of India portals are deleted at MfD a precident against creation of 690 more such portals has been established. Similarly an effort to create portals on all the counties in the US or regional districts in Canada would be easier to shut down.

Given how we found two recently automated now broken portals linked off the Mainpage, is the creator even watching them?

The Neelix situation creates precedent for this relaxation. We went even further there and dispensed with discussion. Legacypac (talk) 18:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Grouping portals which are clearly going to stand or fall together, such as districts of India, makes sense. Certes (talk) 18:38, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Oppose. Tagging is a requirement, notification is not. And I just completed tagging on all of the Districts of India that are in the bundled nom. Assuming the current crop of MfD's close as delete, the solution is to propose a temporary speedy deletion criterion X3. UnitedStatesian (talk) 00:47, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Those portals aren't representative, they're fringe cases. The set of new portals include a wide range of scope, for example, and many had additional work done on them.    — The Transhumanist   01:45, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

What do you mean by "fringe cases" and "representative"? They seem very representative to me. UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:58, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Oppose – Any readers of a page that's up for deletion has a right to know that the page may go bye bye, and that's why the deletion policy requires notice. There's no need to create a separate MfD page for each page being nominated for deletion. Posting a notice on each page that leads directly to the same discussion is easy.    — The Transhumanist   01:45, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - As User:UnitedStatesian says, we need X3. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:11, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Concerning further proposals

The proper venue for proposals is Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals).    — The Transhumanist   01:49, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

AN is a perfectly good place for many kinds of proposal. With over 300,000 edits and many years here you should know better. Legacypac (talk) 03:51, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 4: Provide for CSD criterion X3

I am entering and numbering this proposal in order to get it into the record, but am requesting that action on it be deferred until the current round of MFDs are decided.

As per User:UnitedStatesian, Create Criteria for Speedy Deletion criterion X3, for portals created by User:The Transhumanist between April 2018 and March 2019. Tagging the portals for speedy deletion will provide the notice to users of the portals, if there are any users of the portals. I recommend that instructions to administrators include a request to wait 24 hours before deleting a portal. This is a compromise between the usual 1 to 4 hours for speedy deletion and 7 days for XFD. The availability of Twinkle for one-click tagging will make it easy to tag the pages, while notifying the users (if there are any). Robert McClenon (talk) 04:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

This proposal should be posted in a wider venue, such as WP:VPR or WP:MFD. Many of those portals have been in place for months, making WP:AN too narrow a venue for them. CSD notices wouldn't be placed until after the discussion is over, and therefore would not serve to notify the users of those portals of the discussion. A notice to the discussion of this proposal, since it is a deletion discussion, should be placed on each of the portals, to allow their readers to participate in the discussion. The current round of MfDs are not a random sampling of the portals that were created, and therefore are not necessarily representative of the set. The portals themselves vary in many ways, including scope, the amount of time they've been accessed by readers, quality, number of features, picture support, volume of content, amount of work that went into them, number of editors who worked on them, length, readership, etc.    — The Transhumanist   07:09, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

How would you suggest to get a representative sample? Legacypac (talk) 07:20, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for asking. That would be difficult now, since there are already a bunch of portals nominated for MfD. If those were included, then the sample would already be skewed. I expect a truly random sample would reveal that some portals are worth keeping and others are not. A more important question would be "How would we find the portals worth keeping? Which is very similar to the question "what should the creation criteria for portals be?", the very thing they are discussing at the portal guidelines page right now. Many of these portals may qualify under the guideline that is finally arrived upon there. For example, they are discussing scope. There are portals of subjects that fall within Vital articles Level 2, 3, 4, and 5, and there are many portals of subjects of similar scope to the subjects at those levels. And many of the portals had extra work put into them, and who knows how many had contributions by other editors besides me. Another factor is, that the quality of the navigation templates the portals are powered by differs, and some of the portals are powered by other source types, such as lists. Some have hand-crafted lists, as there are multiple slideshow templates available, one of which accepts specific article names as parameters. Another way to do that is provide a manual list in the subtopics section and power the slideshow from that. Some of the portals are of a different design than the standard base template. Some are very well focused, contextually, while others are not. For example, some of the portals have multiple excerpt slideshows to provide additional context.    — The Transhumanist   07:46, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support in principle. Looking at the existing MFD discussions, TTH seems determined to drag and wikilawyer as much as possible to try to derail the discussions, even for blatantly and indefensibly inappropriate microportals like those discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portals for Portland, Oregon neighborhoods; it's not a good use of anyone's time to go through the same timesink 5000+ times. (The cynic in me says that a speedy criterion wouldn't work as while the creators wouldn't be able to decline the templates themselves, TTH and Dreamy Jazz would probably just follow the tagger around removing the speedy templates from each other's creations.) In practice, it would probably be more efficient to do what we did with Neelix and have a streamlined MFD nomination process, in which "created by TTH" is considered sufficient grounds for deletion at MFD and they default to delete unless someone can make a strong argument for keep. MFD is less gameable and also gives a space for people to defend them in those rare cases where they're actually worth keeping. (Every time I look, I find that the flood of inane and pointless TTH portals has spread further than I thought; shipping containers portal, anyone?) ‑ Iridescent 08:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment – Another option would be to move these to draft space. The templates and lua modules could be modified so that the portals render right in that namespace (I wish I would have thought of this before). Being in draft space would give time to fix their various problems (keeping in mind that micro-scope is not fixable), and identify the ones worth keeping. I would agree not to move any of them personally, and would propose/request such moves after the new creation criteria guidelines for portals are settled upon. I would also be willing to tag those that did not meet those guidelines with CSD (as creator), saving Legacypac the trouble of nominating them at MfD (he mentioned somewhere that he thought I should help clean up this "mess"). Another benefit of this strategy is that if any of them sit in draft space too long without further development, they automatically become subject to deletion per the draft space guidelines, and those that reach that age without any edits can be deleted en masse without time-consuming effort-wasting MfD discussions. This course of action would of course need the participation of some lua programmers to add the necessary functionality to the modules, which would be a good upgrade for those, to allow for portal drafts to be created in the future.    — The Transhumanist   09:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

P.S. @Iridescent and Legacypac: (pinging)    — The Transhumanist   09:28, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

• Absolutely not. The problem is that hundreds of portals on obscure topics makes an unmaintainable mess. Passing it to another namespace does not solve the problem which is that the portals are not helpful and are not maintainable. Automated creation of outlines/portals/anything must stop. Johnuniq (talk) 09:36, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• No. I tried moving one broken portal to Draft as a test and it broke even more stuff. Not worth the effort to modify everything for draft space and then let the same little group of editors release them willy nilly back into portal space. Since this group ignored their own Wikipedia:Portal/Guidelines "portals should be about broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers." why should anyone trust them to follow stricter guidelines? Legacypac (talk) 09:57, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support nuking from orbit: It's the only way to be sure. ——SerialNumber54129 09:32, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support enough with the wikilawyering and obstruction. This proposal is a little too narrow though - TTH created 3500+ automated portals but others in his little team created around 1000 more. I just grouped some by User:Dreamy Jazz into Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion#US_County_Portals Legacypac (talk) 09:57, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support These useless broken portals have to go. CoolSkittle (talk) 14:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support, too many, too quickly, not enough thought went into their creation. Nuke these, revert other portals that were better before TTH "restarted" them. Automation should help with portal maintenance, not replace portal maintenance or move the maintenance burden to navboxes or other places. —Kusma (t·c) 14:57, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Spammer block, request mass rollback

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Accountskwhen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User has been here a couple years, only contributions have been to add a spam link resembling their username to many many articles. Brought it here instead of AIV because I feel mass rollback of their contributions is indicated. Will notify. Also, would blacklisting the link be appropriate? John from Idegon (talk) 04:29, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

NinjaRobotPirate blocked them a few seconds before I did. Mass rollback isn't going to work here; only one of their edits is the current version of the article. Many that I spot-checked have been reversed already; the rest may need to be checked manually. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:38, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I'll get started on it. Thanks for the quick action. John from Idegon (talk) 04:43, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

All links are gone. One can use Special:LinkSearch for this. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:46, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Any wikiarcheologists want something to do?

While digging around in some very dusty areas I found a few dozen deletion discussions from 2004 that are still sitting on Talk: subpages and need to be moved under WP:AFD as all the others were. I don't currently have time to do all of them, anyone pitching in would be very welcome.

Page list

Cheers,  — Scott • talk 16:46, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I think in some cases at least it's going to involve a number of page moves: the first on the list, AT-PT, was kept at the linked 2004 talk page VfD—but then subsequtly merged into a Star Wars page in 2007. So they'd be chronologically out of order? Also, I think it would need the pagemover right, as they page to be moved into would already exist? ——SerialNumber54129 16:52, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Ah, in that particular instance I would rename the 2007 discussion to /AT-PT 2 and add an {{oldafdlist}} to it, before moving the other one. I'd check incoming links in those cases as well, and if there were would add a hatnote saying it had been renamed. You're certainly right that there will be several that require a bit more tidying, going on past experience....  — Scott • talk 17:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Could an admin please delete Talk:Law school outlines/Delete? There's no afd debate or anything there, it's just some nonsensical rambling.💵Money💵emoji💵^💸 18:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Compromised admin account

I've blocked Bogdangiusca (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) as an emergency measure following an AIV report. The recent contributions today indicate an account compromise. GAB^gab 17:12, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

• CheckUser also indicates a likely compromise. I’ve notified ArbCom and got a steward to lock. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:26, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
• ArbCom is aware of this, just as a heads up. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 17:57, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Derp. I just emailed the committee literally five seconds ago, should've checked here first. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Level 1 desysop of Bogdangiusca

Under the Level 1 desysopping procedures, the administrator permissions of Bogdangiusca (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) have been temporarily removed as a suspected compromised account.

Supporting: BU Rob13, KrakatoaKatie, GorillaWarfare

For the Arbitration Committee, Bradv🍁 18:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Level 1 desysop of Bogdangiusca

Via Heraclea, Via Augusta, Via Herculea

Hi all,
It appears that we have two articles about the same Roman road in Hispania and WP:REDIRECT to a a Roman road in Italy - Via Herculea, not Via Heraulea. I don't know how to fix this up. Could someone with Teh Mad Skillz in Wikipedia:Merging help me out with this?
Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:48, 3 March 2019 (UTC)