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    Requesting different discretionary sanctions on 2019 Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria

    Hello, the page 2019 Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria is under community sanctions of Limit of one revert per 24 hours restriction when reverting logged-in users on all pages related to the Syrian Civil War and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, broadly construed. I would say that such sanctions are detrimental when editors are adding live updates to the article about the ongoing battles. The additions just overwhelm 1RR. For proof of that, Slatersteven discussed that We are not a live news feed on the talk page, to which EkoGraf replied that We have always, for the past seven years, provided live updates as you put it regarding the capture of territory or casualties sustained during an offensive or a battle in the Syrian war. We also did the same thing during the previous two Turkish offensives into Syria. So there is no reason not to do so now as well. I’m thinking we need a different sanction, maybe 3RR plus consensus required for restoration of disputed material. starship.paint (talk) 00:22, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    @El C, ST47, and Reyne2: who commented in the above. starship.paint (talk) 05:25, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Not the red text again — my poor eyes! Anyway, under what DS did you envision the new sanction to be applied as, instead? It seems that the most suitable restriction would be under the current SCW General Sanction. I have no objection to removing 1RR and applying consensus required, instead. El_C 05:46, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the text colour change (déjà vu!) El_C 05:55, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, this seems to fall under the Syrian Civil War since Turkey/SDF are participants... starship.paint (talk) 06:00, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Technically, I'm not sure how to even modify {{Editnotice SCW 1RR}}. I suppose it could substituted...(?) El_C 06:33, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    At any case, I would rather hold off until ST47, who applied the GS, weighs in. El_C 06:42, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Consensus required is fine, although I believe it's generally harder to police and allows more "gaming" than 1RR. However, this isn't like AE discretionary sanctions where an admin may place the sanction on a given article. The SCW/ISIL 1RR is automatic, just like the ARBPIA 1RR, consensus would be required in order to change it. And yes, we'd have to update the editnotice and talk notice templates to support this, as I don't believe it's been done before. ST47 (talk) 06:46, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Much as I agree that "consensus is required" can be gamed by obstruction I feel it may be the only way to deal with the tendency for the page to have every announcement by the Turkish media immediately put in no matter how trivial or transitory.Slatersteven (talk) 08:50, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    And the latest series of "but we must update with the latest news, its all out of date" renders 1RR meaningless.Slatersteven (talk) 14:33, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, since there hasn't been any objection, and I do see Slatersteven's point, shall we say For articles related to the 2019 Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria, where the standard 1RR restriction is overly detrimental due to live updates to a current event, an administrator may temporarily replace the 1RR restriction with the standard Consensus Required provision. The 1RR provision should be reinstated once the article is no longer receiving frequent updates. @El C:, @Slatersteven:, @Starship.paint:, sound reasonable to everyone? I shall see about updating a template. ST47 (talk) 20:47, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Sounds good. El_C 21:00, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    No objection. starship.paint (talk) 00:12, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I object. This is exactly the sort of article that needs 1RR under the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL regime. The potential for conflict between editors is high, and live updates, produced amidst an information war between the relevant sides in the conflict, are likely to be unreliable. Wikipedia is not a news website. The priority should be on WP:V, and WP:NPOV, and these things are assisted by a slower editing pace, especially for such a controversial topic. Editors will still be able to update the article under the 1RR regime, provided they attain consensus for their edits. If none of the SCW&ISIL articles have required an exception to 1RR up until now, why should this article? RGloucester — ☎ 21:11, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      @RGloucester:, it seems that the issue is that some editors are providing live updates using sources that other editors object to as non-neutral or unreliable. 1RR isn't slowing down the editors inserting that information, since each individual edit does use a different source to update a different fact. However, since this happens multiple times a day and to multiple different sections of the article, there isn't any practical way for editors to keep the POV/unreliable information out of the article, as they quickly exhaust their one revert per day. In a nutshell, with 1RR, the default state is inclusion of each new edit (either it is inserted and no one wants to use their 1 revert per day on it, or it is inserted, reverted, and reverted back), with Consensus Required, the default state of a controversial edit is no inclusion without consensus. ST47 (talk) 21:22, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    There are obvious solutions to that problem, available under WP:GS/SCW&ISIL. Semi-protect the article, if the problem is a bunch of new accounts or IPs. If it's established editors, issue topic bans to those repeatedly inserting non-neutral or unreliable content. Don't loosen restrictions when there is a problem with NPOV/reliability, ENFORCE the existing sanctions! RGloucester — ☎ 21:45, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @RGloucester: - you would topic ban editors for using Turkish sources in an article about Turkey? Just asking. starship.paint (talk) 00:12, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I would oppose such an act, what really needs to be done is to enforce wp:notnews. One way is to just say one edit per user per day.Slatersteven (talk) 09:13, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    ST47 said that editors are repeatedly inserting unreliable or non-neutral sources. If this is so, yes, they should be topic banned. If they are not doing this, their edits are no problem, and there is no reason for this discussion at all, and certainly no reason for lifting 1RR. It's up for the administrators enforcing sanctions to make a determination as to whether these edits are problematic or not, and if they are, stop them from being made. They can't just remain aloof and pretend to be neutral while articles are being filled with content not suitable for Wikipedia. RGloucester — ☎ 09:18, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Easier said than done. This article is extremely difficult to follow. El_C 12:12, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Its why either "no edit without consensus" or "1 edit a day" may be the only way. Its hard to see what are reverts, what are new figures, and what are POV claims. The infobox being a case to pint, for a few days it has made (at least one) a claim that is now been contracted by the same side that made the claim. We really do need to enforce wp:notnews.Slatersteven (talk) 12:29, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose the removal of 1RR. The article is doing fine at the moment, and 1RR is one of the reasons for it. In fact even with 1RR there are a lot of reverts back and forth, I can't imagine how much reverting would take place without it. When it comes to updating casualties, admins have so far didn't warn or block anybody about it so I imagine, 1RR is applied only for content removals. It should definitely stay I believe. KasimMejia (talk) 13:27, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is true, yet I can list 10 instances where 1RR actually saved the page from going into an edit war. Many users tend to make undiscussed moves or reverts at this page and 1RR must've saved it from happening many times. KasimMejia (talk) 18:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose It seems like there are overlapping issues here.
    1. WP:NOTNEWS issue where editors are attempting to provide real-time journalistic coverage of the war in Syria even though there is a very high risk of errors/biased/unreliable/uncencyclopedic sources or content being added that might be missed by editors.
    2. Because of the above, rapidfire and inappropriate edits are harder to revert.
    This state of affairs is unfortunate, but I don't think that removing the 1RR restriction is wise. This is a topic that is highly volatile and likely to slide into an edit war, so having a hard 1RR rule keeps things from going off the rails. The goal here shouldn't be to remove 1RR but to discourage editors from trying to provide up to the minute embedded war reporter-style coverage of a war that is currently taking place. 107.77.203.224 (talk) 19:32, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Then we need a hard Notnews DS, such as "No edit within 24 hours of an announcement", or (as I suggest above) 1 edit a day per user.Slatersteven (talk) 10:12, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    QuackGuru and disruption over e-cigs and pod mods

    Stuck
     – Plenty of discussion, now stalled and going stale. No agreement on what to do. Hand out a tban or siteban despite the clear consensus below that QG does good work and couldn't easily be replaced? Ignore it and hope the behaviour goes away, after all these years of it being repeated and not going away at all? Issue another warning, in the hope that the frowny face and waggy finger of administorial disapproval somehow works this time, after all these years of having no effect? Or something else? Time for a sysop to stand up and make the call.—S Marshall T/C 17:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Pod mod (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
    QuackGuru (talk · contribs)

    WP:AN is pushing a backlog drive on AfC. Accordingly RoySmith took pod mod into mainspace [8] (so thanks for that). QuackGuru has now removed it [9] as "Redirect non-notable hoax article. (Please do not restore the mass failed verification content. See WP:CIR."

    I was thus prompted to raise the following with them:

    Pod mod
    I'm concerned about your removal of this article [10].
    Firstly, we have an AfD process. I'm sure you're familiar with it. It's fundamental here that we operate by consensus. We do not support single-handed deletion of articles like this.
    Secondly, your reason for removing this article was "Redirect non-notable hoax article. (Please do not restore the mass failed verification content. See WP:CIR.)" [11] That's four separate claims as to why it should be removed. Yet these are unrelated claims, and you have shown no reason to support any of them. In particular, alleging a "hoax" article is a strong allegation against the editor who created that article and should not be made without some evidence to back it up. Importantly though, you then went on to add content from this article [12] to a new section Construction of electronic cigarettes#Pod mods. So which is it? If this is a "hoax", why are you propagating it further? If these sources failed verification in one article, why are they now acceptable in another?
    I'm also less than happy about you using inlined ELs rather than correctly formatted citations and references. [13] Is there any particular reason for this?
    Once again, your editing raises concerns. You are quick to add a warning banner about Discretionary Sanctions to this article, but you don't point out that you were the editor warned when such sanctions were applied Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles#QuackGuru_Warned.
    This blanking of an article was inappropriate and disruptive. It goes against our accepted practice re AfD, should such an article really be inappropriate. Your allegations against it are unsupported, and also targeted against a specific editor, Sydneystudent123456. Your re-use of some content from the article also rather defeats the claims you made against it originally. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    QuackGuru blanked that without reply (they habitually blank all items on their talk:, rather than archiving). They similarly blanked a second request to discuss this.

    I don't see this as acceptable editing, especially not when it's WP:OWN over a whole topic space, one which QuackGuru has got into trouble over before. We work by consensus here (do we still?) Single-handed deletions are not how we do things! I don't myself know if pod mods are notable (to the level of a distinct article) and had already asked as much on the talk: page. (I'm in the UK, I don't vape, I'm unfamiliar with the subtle variants). It does appear now that pod mods are a topic of some debate and we have coverage of them under the broader e-cig articles and also at Juul, the major commercial brand. But this is primarily a behavioural problem – single editors don't get to blank articles, the reasons given are hand-waving at best, certainly not supported by any evidence or specific claim, and when challenged like this it's incumbent upon WP:BOLD editors to be ready to at least discuss it. I would have un-redirected the article and AfDed it myself, except for the second refusal to discuss. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Huh. QuackGuru said failed verification, so I was expecting something really ridiculous like the sources didn't actually exist, but that's not the case. Haven't looked into it thoroughly yet but I'd say whatever QG saw that led him to just instantly blank the page is not obvious, at least to me. I think it's possible this is a reasonable action (the redirect only, not the subsequent interactions), but it really needs to be explained. Someguy1221 (talk) 13:39, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed. If it had been a "hoax article" then we have WP:CSD#G3 for that and at least an admin and a second pair of eyes would have seen it.
    They still haven't communicated, but they have been busy editing and they've added a comment as an edit summary [14] about "Please don't restore content that failed verification or use poor source such as a blog. See https://www.caferacervape.com/blogs/news/a-brief-history-of-pod-mods-and-open-system-low-wattage-devices" However that source wasn't being used in this article, so I fail to see the relevance of mentioning it. Nor is a misleading note in an edit summary an acceptable substitute for discussion via a talk: page.
    I half expected QuackGuru to take their usual line that "all sources must meet WP:MEDRS". Except that here [15] at Construction of electronic cigarettes they're happy to reference The Verge [16] and here [17] at Juul they're adding links to the SF Chronicle [18]. Maybe they think that it's OK if these ELs are inlined, rather than presented as citations? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    I have undone the redirect. If anybody feels this article should not exist, please to take it to WP:AfD for a proper discussion. @QuackGuru: I explicitly draw your attention to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles#QuackGuru Warned. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • QuackGuru seems either unable or unwilling to communicate with other editors. They will adopt some particular idea, then defend it to the death and happily edit-war to do so, but simply will not express to others what it is beforehand, thus avoiding a whole lot of argument. I cannot understand why this is, but it does make editing around them particularly difficult. They seem to go out of their way to post half-truths to talk: pages: something which can't be said to be definitively wrong afterwards, but is especially unclear and misleading at the time. So when complaining of a source, they refer to it by a URL that isn't even used in the article, rather than pointing to its use in that article. They complain "don't restore OR" when nothing has been either deleted or restored. They will insist that all sources meet MEDRS, even for simple matters of commercial business (but are happy to use non-MEDRS sources themselves). They remove content as "not relevant" even though it is highly relevant to the broader context of understanding the article, just because it doesn't contain a specific easily-matched word (I've written AI reasoners which suffered much the same problem). And throughout all of this, other editors are simply wrong: there is no room for debate or opinion, it's QuackGuru's version or nothing. That is not how we operate. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    So, sorry QuackGuru, but that is not an obvious verification failure and you have failed to state what particular arcana is offending you. This is a collaborative project involving other editors and if you are going to oppose other editors over minutiae such as that, it is incumbent upon you to at least explain the issue.
    Similarly, "they do not prodcue smoke" when tagging "Pod mods are portable devices that people use to smoke" as OR. Well, sorry QuackGuru but this is smoke; smoke by its technical broad definition includes pretty much any particulate aerosol produced by heat and that includes pyrolysis rather than combustion, and e-cigarettes et al certainly perform pyrolysis. Also modern language has yet to catch up fully with its terminology and possibly "smoking" may not be the best verb to apply here, but in no way is this WP:OR. It is simply another pejorative use of terminology by you to tag it as such, as an inevitable waypoint towards its removal. This is sheer sophistry on your part, to a level where it's deliberate and it's disruptive. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Andy Dingley: technically the content did fail verification since AFAICT, no where does the source say "pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes", it only suggested one possible shape (and possibly size). But I'm not sure that tagging it FV was the best way to handle it. Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is not a problem of content, it's a problem of behaviour: that's why it's at ANI.
    Far better editing by QuackGuru would be to list any problems on the article talk page, to make specific statements about what is wrong with them, then to put forward intended solutions: a change of wording, a need for a better source, even the need to remove a section. There might not even be much need for discussion: maybe some of these problems and remedies would become so self-evident that all would be in immediate agreement (there seems to be zero evidence of a POV disagreement). But they are doing none of that. Instead we see unexplained changes made directly to the article. We see threats [20] to delete the article again as "unsourced", when this is a clearly untrue and hyperbolic statement to make. QuackGuru's editing style makes collaboration impossible: in a context where reversions are restricted (and they've made that sanction threat clear enough, even though it's not even clear it applies) their technique is to "capture the high ground first". Anyone disagreeing with QuackGuru will be described as edit-warring and instantly reverted. The changes they're making are unexplained and unjustified (even if correct, or at least their underlying reason needing to be addressed) and they're making the change first, then being forced to provide some sort of justification afterwards. This makes it very difficult for another editor to provide a different remedy to the same (agreed) problem.
    Consider the case of the physical resemblance to USB sticks: this is a most trivial issue. Yes, there may be some minor inaccuracy in there and it might need to be fixed by some very minor copyediting on non-contentious wording. But instead QuackGuru is attacking the sources, slapping on a "failed verification" tag, advocating deleting the entire article because "100% fails verification". An editor trying to fix the descriptive wording problem then has to fight uphill, justifying their changes in terms of dire actions like "removing an {{OR}} tag from an article subject to MEDRS", "Re-introducing content that failed verification", "Using sources that do not meet MEDRS". This is to skew the entire editing process unfairly in one editor's favour! They might as well start asking, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of Quora?"
    This is a behavioural problem (and they still refuse to engage here), it's disruptive, it's a severe form of WP:OWN and it needs to stop or be stopped. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:55, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Andy Dingley, except that you explicitly said
    Quick example: Tagging the text, "Pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes and some resemble USB devices." as "fails verification " See "The palm-sized device resembles a USB flash drive,,," Obvious FV content." from a source which contains the literal text, "The palm-sized device resembles a USB flash drive".
    You cannot have it both ways. You made a big deal over the fact that the content does not fail verification because the source explicitly mentions it resembles a USB flash drive. But you completely neglected to mention that in fact the source only says that. It does not support the claim "pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes". Therefore as I said, the failed verification tag was technically correct, regardless whether or not it was the best way to handle it. (And I've already said it wasn't.)
    I would note that the reason I realised this is because I nearly faulted QuackGuru on my talk page for them adding a failed verification tag when it wasn't justified since I WP:AGF that you were correct. Thankfully this didn't happen since I double checked myself before leaving my comment.
    If you want us to focus on the problems with QuackGuru's editing you need to avoid making misleading claims. From my experience a good way to ensure any complaints you have at AN//I get ignored is by ensuring that we are pointlessly arguing over what the person complaining about said because they are careless or misleading in what they say. As I've said, it seems to me QuackGuru's editing does have problems, so I have no idea why you insist on bringing up stuff that detracts from that point.
    Nil Einne (talk) 13:30, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • This has never been about the accuracy of the article complaints here, so much as the appropriate remedies for how to fix them. The text in the article was over-specific for what the source literally stated. If an editor sees that as a problem, then there are quick, easy fixes to that such as either rewording to only match what can literally be supported (one observed device resembles such a device) or else (as appears likely to be the case) noting that resembling USB devices seems to be an ongoing theme across the market and finding additional broader sources to support that broader claim. But shouting "FAILS VERIFICATION!!" from the rooftops and demanding the article is deleted as a consequence is an over-reaction. A disruptive over-reaction. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's a straightforward example of disruptive tag-bombing: [21]
    "...however the health risks are currently undetermined as they are new productions." {{CN}}
    "...the health risks of these are also unknown and not well-studied." {{CN}}
    Two tags of those added, where a high school philosophy freshman should be able to spot the fallacy.
    If the text read, "the risks have been quantified", then that would be a WP:biomedical claim rightly needing WP:MEDRS. But it isn't, it's the opposite of that. It falls under WP:BLUESKY. They are new (this is unchallenged, and anyway met by RS elsewhere) and there are no known studies. If an especially pedantic editor wanted to qualify the wording of the statement (at the cost of losing clarity as an encyclopedia) then they could reword as "No studies are known at present (2019) to the authors of this WP article", which would be pointless yet justifiable. But to demand citations is ridiculous: "New things are unknown" is not merely uncited, it is unciteable, and that is a matter of classical logic, not medical quackery. To then take that as an excuse for deletion (read the edit summary added) is disruptive above all else. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:04, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Without wanting to express any strong views about Quack's overall editing, I request that, if any decisions need to be made, you all please kindly limit the number of RFCs involved. A couple of months ago, QuackGuru had ten (10!) separate RFCs about e-cigs underway at one time. As some of you know, I've followed the RFC advice pages for years and years, and I cannot recall a single instance in which another editor had even half that many content RFCs underway at one time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed that this is WP:OWN behauvior, and QuackGuru has staggering 2,449 edits in e-cigarette according to Xtools edit count. Not everything related to e-cigs should be vetted by one person. --Pudeo (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • My impression which seems to be supported by WP:AfD, WP:ATD-R and Wikipedia:Merging is that it's not always necessary to AfD something where merging or redirection while keeping the old article is the desired outcome even if these are possible outcomes of an AfD. If it's expected to be uncontentious, no discussion may be needed. It may also be acceptable to rely on other forms of discussion like RfCs. This is in part because merging or redirecting (while keeping the article) are explicitly not a form of deletion as no admin action is needed and the edit history is still there. These actions can be reverted by anyone like with normal editing processes. However it's recognised that many editors will not be aware of this, so care needs to be taken and sometimes AfD may be better. Note that this is explicitly not an endorsement of QuackGuru's actions. If you've found a hoax, it needs to be deleted so you should use some deletion process. It's harmful to simply redirect or merge a hoax as you're running the risk someone will revert to the hoax either intentionally or accidentally. But I agree with others it doesn't seem this is a hoax, based on the sources and the fact the info was merged anyway. QuackGuru's other actions here also seem concerning. Nil Einne (talk) 05:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    It's been pointed out to be my QuackGuru they didn't merge content so I've struck that portion of my comment above. Instead I will say "But I agree with others it doesn't seem this is a hoax, based on the sources and the fact that the info or very similar info already existed in another article they redirect to. It possible that some of the content in the original article failed verification and this needed to be dealt with, but it's clear that the article itself and the concept it dealt with was not a hoax. To reiterate what I said, if it was a hoax it needed to be deleted outright not simply redirected." Nil Einne (talk) 06:51, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • " These actions can be reverted by anyone like with normal editing processes. "
    No, they can't be "reverted by anyone". It needs a particularly thick-skinned editor to disagree with QuackGuru. Their immediate reaction is to place a dire warning box on the editor's talk: page, threatening sanctions (despite the fact that ArbCom's ruling behind such sanctions was directed at QuackGuru). Then they fire up threads in the walled garden of the medical project, demanding the use of sources to MEDRS, just to say what year a commercial product was launched or whether it's the shape of a USB stick. And they will still not join the debate here at ANI, a thread specifically about their behaviour. This is QuackGuru going out of their way to place barriers in front of other editors, and that's usually an effective strategy to imposing their single viewpoint onto articles. This has nothing about article quality or verifiable standards, it's about refusing to cooperate. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    So, you're saying that "dire warning box" is too frightening? --Calton | Talk 08:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've always said that. It's completely unfit for purpose. It threatens other editors, it's unclear as to what it means, it's unclear as to how other editors ought to respond to it or should change their editing. It's used by a handful of established editors in order to intimidate others, and it's often highly effective against blameless new editors (read some of the Teahouse reactions to being hit with it).
    Worst of all is its lack of clarity. It doesn't link to any good explanation of what "Discretionary Sanctions" are and what they mean for ongoing editing. The justification for them (i.e. the source ArbCom case) is hidden and mostly irrelevant to the current situation. These DS boxes are mostly used by two editors: one who favours a DS box linking to an ArbCom case that was rescinded or else (in this case) a case where the editor pasting the warning box was one of those being admonished by ArbCom.
    So yes, this is just a scary stick to try and frighten other editors with. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:02, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Regardless, that has nothing to do with my point which is that there has never been any policy or guideline requiring that redirects and merges must go through AfD. Nor my point that redirects and merges are explicitly not a form of deletion and can technically be reverted by anyone (given the limits of page protection, edit filters, and editor blocks). Note I also said that QuackGuru's actions were wrong here but that doesn't change the general point I made which you challenged. QuackGuru should be called out for their problematic editing. What you've alleged of their behaviour may be a problem, but failing to use AfDs for merges or redirects it not itself a problem unless the conditions when they did so is a problem. Likewise, if QuackGuru prevents people reverting when they should and can that's a problem, but that doesn't change the way merges and redirects operate. That said, I'm not sure that QuackGuru is even putting barriers in place for reversion. Giving a discretionary sanctions notice to someone who had not been notified seems fair enough. I'd note an editor does not need to be "thick-skinned", they just need to properly understand the notice or the discretionary sanctions process in general to know that such notices are irrelevant to whether or not they can revert if justified and of course that QuackGuru's actions would also be covered under the discretionary sanctions regime if their actions are. Not to mention skin thickness does not matter if the editor has received a notice within the past year meaning they cannot receive another one. Nil Einne (talk) 13:18, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've no objection to the use of either AfD or talk: page discussion, or anything similar, but there needs to be opportunity for discussion by some means, and QuackGuru is doing their best to avoid it at all. Their actions are instant, so that WP:FAIT applies, and they're hedging even the smallest issue around with the biggest obstacles of MEDRS etc that they can.
    Juul is pretty obviously investing in high quality design to make an attractive product, more than a merely functional one. It does have resemblances to a USB stick, in both size and shaping. The amount of arguing against this and the sources involved, and the implication that the article needs to be deleted as a result, are out of all proportion to the underlying issue. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Nil Einne, the discretionary sanctions notices are scary for most people – perhaps for almost everyone except the few editors who like to spam them around at every opportunity. We've tried to clarify the wording – I was involved in the effort to specify that this situation exists because of other editors, and doesn't say anything about your own contributions – but they are still perceived by the recipients as direct and immediate threats. I have been wondering whether it would make sense to ban their delivery by people who are in disputes. In the current free-for-all situation, an editor who is edit warring can drop that notice on your talk page. In that situation, it is no wonder that people think the underlying message is "Let me own this article, or I'll get you blocked". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:26, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Have to disagree. For new editors, yes I agree they are often scary and confusing. For anyone familiar with the regime, they are generally not scary. For editors who aren't new but are also less familiar with the discretionary sanctions regime IMO it varies. I have said before that IMO it's best if an editor involved in a dispute with another editor, or who simply often disagrees with the other editor doesn't hand them out. Instead an uninvolved editor or even better someone friendly with the editor should hand them out. But I also feel that any ban on people who may hand them out would carry a reasonable risk of making the regime less effective. I myself have handed them out on a few occasions, mostly when I see someone at one of the ANs who is editing the area and where I feel there is a chance the regime may be useful. I admit this may not be ideal, but I generally avoid simultaneously criticising the editor a lot or getting involved in any dispute. Thinking more of something I said above, I wonder if it may be helpful to add something to the template emphasising they apply to all editors including the one handing out the notice if they are involved in the topic area. But this is perhaps getting too far off topic. I stand by my claim that you do not have to be a thick skinned editor to be largely unaffected by the possibility of notices. For example anyone familiar with the regime or anyone who has already received a notice and some other editors. This is particularly significant here since RoySmith and Andy Dingley themselves seem to be 2 of the major editors involved in the article and I do not believe either of them should be affected by receiving a discretionary sanctions notice. The creator User talk:Sydneystudent123456 doesn't seem to have received a notice either [22] Nil Einne (talk) 16:49, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    It's possible true that "anyone familiar with the regime" will be unaffected. However, that restriction basically excludes 99% of registered editors. In my experience, it's really hard for long-time editors like us to even imagine what our system looks like to people who aren't us. For example: Less than 10% of registered editors (all accounts, ever, specifically at this wiki) are autoconfirmed. The median number of undeleted edits for registered accounts is zero. Think about what that means for our assumptions about what "most" editors do or think or feel. We are not like most editors. I might receive these notices with the realization that another editor is trying to escalate a dispute. The median editor receives them with as little nonchalance as they would receive notice of a dispute from their nation's tax agency. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:14, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Well I never disputed that discussion should be allowed. My point was and remains that we should not conflated merging and redirection with deletion, and also that other processes can be used instead of AfD for that discussion. I felt this was important since the initial comment seem to come close to suggesting the opposite. I don't really see a point to argue content issues like what Juul makes and USB sticks on this page and was never suggesting we do so. My point with that was that the content did fail verification. As I said, I don't think adding a failed verification tag was the right way to handle that but I stand by my view it's very confusing to imply the content did not fail verification when it did fail verification (even if some part of the content was verified by the source). Nil Einne (talk) 16:53, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]


    I've had similar problems with Quackguru, and I haven't managed to discuss most of them them productively: see this discussion, and much of my talk page. Aside from my own ignorance and mistakes (advice welcome), there are a few recurrent sources of conflict, which it would be good to have resolved.
    On merging, redirection, and deletion, I'd like to raise what I see as obfuscation of article and talk histories (example, original article) and, more trivially, QG's own draft space (for instance, pages titled with totally unrelated word, or an IPA schwa character). QG's manual archiving of talk page discussions, which matches the clear-desk ethos of QG's talk page, can be inconvenient to part-time and intermittent editors.
    Draft-replacing content is fast, but it feels a bit like driving a flail tank through a community vinyard to till it.
    I really don't like it when QuackGuru privately writes a parallel article in the draftspace, then overwrites the multieditor article. It is especially frustrating when QG has, while writing the draft, been asking other editors to fix problems identified by QG in the article (or delete or redirect the article), without telling them of the any plan to replace their work with the draft. If editor efforts are in competition, anyone who spends less time editing than QG, or edits more slowly, is at a disadvantage.
    QG sometimes uses language I find needlessly threatening (prod example). I have, in the past, overreacted to QG's warnings (though not that one). I've learned that the best response to threats of formal complaints is to urge QG to follow through with them. QG often repeatedly raises issues with my editing. When the issues are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, or when I have acknowledged faults, apologized, and fixed, or when the forum is one I only come across by chance, this feels like mudslinging (example).
    I strongly support inline tagging, but I often find QG's tags trivial (some phrasing and page number requests) or incomprehensible (many fv tags). Quackguru seems to mostly think that every sentence must have exactly one source at the end of it. It is also difficult to steer between Scylla and Charybdis with closeness to sources; QG opposes both excessively close paraphrases as copyvio and excessively loose ones as failed-verification. This leads to passages in the first style below:

    Anon was born in the 19th century[1]. She was born in Nowheretown[2]. Her parents worked as cobblers[3]. Her mother was named named Anan[3]. Her father was named Anen[4]. Anon attended Nowheretown School[4]. She studied basketmaking in her first two years at Nowheretown School[4]. She also studied applied agrostology in her last year at Nowheretown School[5]. In 1882, the Nowheretown Post described her as a "elderly lady".[6] In 1882, the Journal of Applied Agrostology said that she was well-known to for her "application of agrostology to basketmaking"[7]. She died in 1882[8]. Her son gave the Nowheretown Botanic Gardens and Handicrafts Museum her collections[7]. Her collections included herbarium specimens and furniture[7].

    		Anon was born in Nowheretown[1] in the 1880s[1] to two cobblers[3] named Anan[3] and Anen[4]. At Nowheretown School, she studied first basketmaking[4], then applied agrostology[5]. In later life,[6] she became well-known for her application of agrostology to basketmaking[7][8]. When she died at an advanced age in 1882, the Journal of Applied Agrostology published an obituary praising her work. Her herbarium specimens and furniture were donated to the Nowheretown Botanic Gardens and Handicrafts Museum[7].
    Example obviously made up, to avoid using a controversial topic. I'll also give a real style example; readers may also wish to see if they can spot the two paragraphs of QG's style in Nicotine marketing. A few examples of citation disagreements, all from one page:
    QuackGuru has argued that that all sources must include wording matching the article title. This severely constrains editor judgment in determining the article scope and providing context (example). Likewise constraining is Quackguru's view that an image cannot be included in an article unless a source says that it illustrates the article topic (one "humorous" example).
    Because we have a history of conflict, I probably don't see QG's best side; we all tend to give more consideration to those we respect, an exacerbating feedback. The next two paragraphs may therefore be unduly harsh.
    I rarely get the sense that QG is intellectually engaged in a content discussion, and discussions with QG tend go nowhere via long strings of characters. I often find QG's posts unclear, and it takes several exchanges to extract a meaning I'd expect to get in two sentences. QG often does not answer direct questions, and reiterates the same points or ones I find logically unconnected, until I've wondered if my own posts are even being read. This communications burden often puts off other editors who would otherwise engage on topics of interest to QuackGuru (example). I think a majority of my talk page posts have been made in response to QG; I never came in contact with QG for the first decade or so of my editing.
    Obviously I disagree with some of QuackGuru's interpretations of rules, and formal guidance on these issues might help reduce conflict. However, more generally, I feel that QuackGuru tends to focus overmuch on using rules to control article content, rather than on understanding and improving content. I'm therefore not sure that providing more rules would help much (especially since combativeness tends, even with the best will in the world, to be infectious). I'm not sure what would help, though QuackGuru has some views. HLHJ (talk) 22:02, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Edited in response to User talk:HLHJ#Allegations without supporting evidence. HLHJ (talk) 22:48, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    This very much matches my experience of dealing with QuackGuru. They seem to be more interested in content as a sequence of matching text strings and they have no interest in or understanding of any meaning behind that. They are also persistently either unwilling or incapable of communicating with other editors to any normal level: they see interaction as a series of barriers and obstacles, not as an opprtunity to share information. The "I would have commented to this ANI thread about me days ago, but there was an edit conflict" claim is simply not credible. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:07, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, I do think that QuackGuru is interested in the meaning of content, as QG edits on specific topics of interest, with an identifiable point of view on those topics (which I do not consider unacceptable, or avoidable). I find I can often predict which statements QG will tag and remove, and if and how QG is likely to alter statements, but I find it harder to predict what objections QG will make to the statements. I haven't gotten the impression that QG is very interested in teaching me or learning from me, which I would be OK with if we were not in conflict. I'm not very good at social interactions myself, and I have sympathy with editors who want to minimize the social side of editing; there are unobjectionable ways of doing this. HLHJ (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Well I am out. I normally don't edit controversial things and I try to avoid WP:MEDRS sections of articles as I don't feel comfortable judging if sources are reliable enough. I still think this is a valid article separate from e-cigs as there are a few articles on Google Scholar from JAMA and NEJM which focus on Pod Mods in general.There are also a handful of articles in mainstream sources that also focus on the category rather than a specific brand. That makes it pass WP:GNG in my eyes but apparently not in others. spryde | talk 11:46, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    I've stayed away from this discussion for a few days since I felt I'd said enough and it was better to let others comment. Since it still doesn't seem to have achieved a clear resolution and there are suggestions for AE I'll just make a few final comments.

    One, I think QuackGuru's refusal to engage in this ANI is concerning. While sometimes when it's without merit it's fair enough to just let others deal with an ANI on your behaviour, and it's easy to harm yourself with poorly considered posts at ANI; IMO there were enough serious concerns here to warrant at least some comment. It's clear QuackGuru was paying attention since they quickly approached editors who had commented when they had concerns (me and from the sounds of it HLJH).

    Two, I'm also concerned there has been no real engagement with QuackGuru on Talk:Pod mods over article content issues. Whatever concerns there over QuackGuru's conduct, I do not believe they warrant ignoring their attempts at engagement, especially since one of the concerns was their refusal to discuss their concerns over article content. To be fair (paraphrasing here) 'should I delete half the article content as unsourced' is not something that's easy to engage with. But when QuackGuru raises specific concerns over specific text failing verification (or whatever), I think at least some action should be expected even if it's just a quick comment 'no you're wrong, the source says XYZ' or minor rewording to fix the problem or finding a new source or whatever.

    Three, and bear in mind I have basically no experience with AE and I'm not an admin, I feel if an AE case is raised it would be best to concentrate on clear cut examples. For example whatever problems there may be with posting discretionary sanctions notices unless these are clearly inappropriate (user is already away, user never edited the area) I have doubts they'd get much heed. Likewise saying something did not fail verification because it mentions USB-likeness when it didn't mention the other stuff may not be a great example. Either say that even if it technically failed verification blindly tagging it along with a whole load of other content was not the best way to handle it. Or find refs which do support this content add them and if QuackGuru continues to complain because they don't like 2 sources then maybe you have an example. (I think the former already happened but it's still IMO an example of what happened early in this case that would best be avoided at AE.)

    Nil Einne (talk) 07:46, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • No-one is disputing that it needs work – except perhaps QuackGuru, who thinks that such work is impossible and the whole lot needs to be deleted.
    Are they notable? Well, my first comment on the talk: page was to ask just that. QuackGuru thinks they're distinct, and has created a CFORK on that basis. I'm still unconvinced (I am too busy to do any editing for the next few weeks), but if they are (and I think they are) it's because the Juul is not merely another e-cigarette. Whether there are any pod mods other than Juul is a separate question. But it seems (from what little I've had time to read) that the difference with them is nothing to do with replaceable coils and it's actually about the chemistry of the fluid used. Juul is using nicotine salts, which appear to have significantly different biological effects. If pod mods are really different from other e-cigs, it's this different chemistry which makes it. However QuackGuru has already stripped the redlinks and decided that it's "just not notable".
    They are impossible to work with. They do not engage with others, they do not engage with serious efforts to try and answer specific issues, they just keep re-posting "Can I delete all this yet?". They don't need permission to do so in the first place: they need to justify it. But asking over and over again is a way to get this "permission" by attrition and omission. If they simply persist long enough, more and more editors will say "Well I am out." and when it goes quiet, they can delete the article "because no one complained beforehand". That is not acceptable editing: we have to collaborate here, and none of us get to simply ignore the others. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    As someone who is a domain expert in certain topic areas who, like QuackGuru, has a massive edit count in those articles and been involved in numerous content disputes, I have also had WP:OWN thrown at me in content disputes by other involved editors. It is both really disingenuous and a very clear case of fundamental attribution error (i.e., a cognitive bias) to ascribe another editor's reversion of your edits and those of others who are a party in the dispute as WP:OWN without a clear statement of ownership. An editor is violating WP:OWN if the they make a statement of ownership and/or take action to prevent all others from modifying an article so as to effectively retain an exclusive right to edit an article, decide what content it shows, or otherwise dictate what an article states (that's also what ownership of literally anything entails). If you don't have clear evidence of an editor making such a statement or rolling back everyone's edits to an article, do not cite that policy. It is pointlessly inflammatory and I've personally found it annoying to be on the receiving end of that. Frankly, I don't know what experienced Wikipedian would actually believe that they have, or could possibly retain for any length of time, an exclusive right to anything on Wikipedia (the only exception would be the copyright to any CC-BY-SA-3.0-licensed article text that an editor contributes, as that is an exclusive right). Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • Read the other page discussions. There's little edit-warring in mainspace, because they've already slapped warning dialogs around to threaten some unspecific editing restriction. But on the talk: discussions, we keep looping through the same sequence. "There is a minor wording issue over a very minor topic, where the source does not use those literal words" – 'OK, what change is needed? Just do it' – "This source FAILS VERIFICATION so I've removed it altogether." – 'Don't do that. It means the content doesn't match, not that the source is bad' – "I'm going to delete the whole article again" – 'Why are you ignoring the ANI thread?'.
    This is OWN, even if not in mainspace. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I have been thinking over my last post, and I have an example of QG responding to new editors. QG reverted the mostly-easily-salvagable edits, but spontaneously posted on the talk page with some explanation of why. This suggests to me that QG is willing to teach newcomers, but is not always using effective methods (in this case, the new editors did not engage). Sometimes QG has spent far longer getting me to fix problems than it would have taken for QG to fix them and post saying "You should have done this" (example); I think this is partly communications difficulties.
    QuackGuru often adds very high densities of inline tags to content I've written, and insists that I fix the content. Some of the reasons behind the inline tags are trivial fixes, things you'd think would be easier to fix than to tag, but most of the problems QG points out are not obvious, and I find many debatable. Any fix I attempt is usually swiftly re-tagged, accompanied by talkpage posts that my changes have made the content even worse, and it would be best to delete the lot and start again. When I add templates criticizing content in articles in which QG takes an interest, QG has reverted the addition (invariably, as far as I can recall). QuackGuru occasionally reverts edits of mine that QG requested via inline tags (for instance, the addition of a large number of verifying quotes, accompanied by translations from the French and German, which took me some hours of editing time: 1, 2, 3).
    I don't think this behaviour motivated by bad faith. QuackGuru believes that I lack the WP:CIR to edit, so I think the motive is to improve the content by protecting it from me, keeping me busy with makework until I move to another content area. This is logical and effective, in the short term. Taking the long-term consequences into account, though, it also turns editors wanting to work in this area into opponents instead of collaborators.
    For me, this discussion is therefore not primarily about the podmod article (I've been uninvolved with it, apart from a point-of-information talkpage post in answer to a question), or any one article.
    I'm a bit uncomfortable addressing all this in the third person. QuackGuru, I know you are reading, and I'm not intending to ignore you, slight you, or speak behind your back. I'd be happy to discuss the roots of our editing conflicts with you in another forum, including a more private one. HLHJ (talk) 15:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Without recommending a remedy, I would like to say that QG has severe OWNership issues with regard to e-cigarettes. I mean, he truly believes he owns the subject and no one else should be allowed to edit there. I tried to get involved with the coverage about recent illnesses and deaths from vaping, but was totally stonewalled and eventually gave up. His style includes spinning off multiple sub-articles, so that he can put disputed content into all of them and no one can keep up. His articles are so technical and detailed, and so focused on single individual studies (quite the opposite of how MEDRS is supposed to work), that there is literally no way for a reader to gain an overall understanding of the subject. I tried for several weeks to make a few of the articles more readable; no luck. I tried to get him to tone down his promotion of the theory that the recent illnesses and deaths are caused by Vitamin E acetate; no luck. The investigating agencies are saying over and over that they don’t know the cause and there are many different histories of what the affected people used in vaping, but he is convinced acetate is the issue and his articles convey that. I know he is a very prolific editor, but IMO what he produces is non-neutral and unreadable, and his attitude is the very opposite of the collaboration that Wikipedia is supposed to be about. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:37, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Please provide evidence of spinning off multiple sub-articles, so that I can put disputed content into all of them and no one can keep up. The only recent spin off was "2019 United States outbreak of lung illness linked to vaping products". It is way too long to merge. There is a summary in the safety article. I also started "Vaping-associated pulmonary injury" after discussing it with WikiProject Medicine.
      • You stated "I tried for several weeks to make a few of the articles more readable; no luck." Can you provide diffs where you tried to make them more readable?
      • See "The CDC stated that the cases have not been linked to one product or substance, saying "Most patients have reported a history of using e-cigarette products containing THC. Many patients have reported using THC and nicotine. Some have reported the use of e-cigarette products containing only nicotine."[5] Many of the samples tested by the states or by the US Food and Drug Administration (US FDA) as part of the 2019 investigation have been identified as vaping products containing tetrahydrocannabinol (or THC, a psychoactive component of the cannabis plant).[8] Most of those samples with THC tested also contained significant amounts of Vitamin E acetate.[8]"
      • The CDC and the US FDA have both reported similar things. I included content from both of them. QuackGuru (talk) 16:03, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • I’m not inclined to spend much additional time over this, but if you insist: Here, on September 7, was where I updated the article and put the CDC warning into the lead. This was the “Safety of electronic cigarettes” article (before you spun off the separate article about recent illnesses), so a CDC warning about safety seemed like the single most important thing to have in the lead. But you immediately removed it,[23] falsely citing “failed verification” when in fact it was well cited. Correction: your reason for removing it from the "safety" article was that it was mentioned in two other articles. So that means it can't be in the "safety" article where it is clearly relevant? That's an example of how you use (and misuse) subarticles.
    For some reason you strongly objected to putting any warning into the "safety article" lead, leaving the lead full of years-old studies indicating that vaping could be relatively harmless or even beneficial. As recently as September 11 the lead of the safety article still didn’t mention the outbreak of disease and death. In fact it said (based on a 2016 report) that the risk of serious adverse effects was low, while it rambled on about possible battery explosions. I remember arguing with you about the necessity of putting the warning in the lead of that and several related articles; that argument is here. Finally on September 11 I was able to get a sentence about the outbreak (without mentioning the CDC warning) in the Safety article lead.[24]
    Now that I have researched this, at your request, I see that this issue wasn’t just with me and it wasn't just one article. Doc James inserted the CDC warning into the lead of the main Electronic cigarette article three times on September 7, and you removed it three times, [25] prompting him to issue a warning on your talk page.[26] In other words, you kept insisting the warning couldn’t be in the lead of any article, even though that was only your own opinion, vs. well supported arguments to include it from two other people. Like I said, you don’t believe in collaboration or consensus; you believe you OWN these articles. That is not how Wikipedia works. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:22, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    You added on September 7, a CDC warning. This was added to the Safety of electronic cigarettes article before I created a spin-off. I removed it, along with rewriting other content, correctly citing "failed verification" for "WDHS2019". Both citations did not verify the same claim for "In 2019 hundreds of cases of severe lung disease were reported among users of e-cigarettes." The US-centric view for "recommending against the use of e-cigarettes because of their association with severe respiratory disease." was not a neutral summary for the lede. It was replaced with neutral content. See Safety of electronic cigarettes: "In 2019, an outbreak of severe lung illness across multiple states in the US has been linked to the use of vaping products.[23]" Also see Electronic cigarettes: In 2019, an outbreak of severe lung illness across multiple states in the US was linked to vaping.[105] Adding a US-centric warning to the lede of "Safety of electronic cigarettes" or "Electronic cigarette" is not neutral. The outbreak is in the US only. More than one editor objected to including a US-centric warning. See Talk:Electronic_cigarette/Archive 31#US-centric. Simply stating the facts in the lede that there is an outbreak is far more neutral than including a US-centric warning. I did add the CDC warning to the Electronic cigarette.[27] It is still in the Electronic cigarette. See Electronic_cigarette#Positions_of_medical_organizations. I did add it to the lede of the Positions of medical organizations on electronic cigarettes article. QuackGuru (talk) 18:11, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Simply stating the facts in the lede that there is an outbreak is far more neutral than including a US-centric warning. And that's what I did, here, although apparently even that wasn't worded to your satisfaction and you reworded it. I'm done here, but my comments stand: you insist that everything at these articles, great or small, has to be done your way. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:09, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    You added "In September 2019 the Center for Disease Control and Prevention reported an outbreak of severe lung disease in the US associated with the use of e-cigarette products.[16]" The CDC reported an outbreak in September 2019, but the outbreak started before September 2019. I fixed the inaccurate content. When did the outbreak start? "Cases involved in the outbreak of severe lung illness associated with vaping products were first identified in Illinois and Wisconsin in April 2019.[13]" I wrote accurate content without misleading or biased content. QuackGuru (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    See here. QuackGuru (talk) 19:42, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Propose ban

    This proposal is unanimously opposed/not going anywhere after (hours short of) 7 days. --TheSandDoctor Talk 16:00, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I've largely stayed out of this, but I've slowly come to the conclusion that QuackGuru is a lost cause. We should just WP:CBAN him and stop this endless time sink.

    I made an attempt to work with him. See the Talk:Pod mod#Failed verification content thread. He questioned whether Research reveals potential health risks in aerosolizing nicotine salts and metal toxins that are produced was verified by the cited reference. I decided to investigate.

    My first task was to find a copy of the reference, and discovered that it existed on-line, so I updated the reference to include the URL, and some other minor reformatting while I was at it. This earned me a complaint 10 minutes later that, The citation was formatted but that does not solve the FV problem. I continued to read the cited source and concluded that QuackGuru was correct; it did indeed not verify the claim made in the article, which I stated on the talk page. Amazingly enough, his response to my agreeing with him was yet another salvo.

    Somewhere in there, he dropped a Template:Ds/alert on my talk page. What purpose this served other than an attempt at intimidation, I can't imagine. I've got a pretty thick skin, but I imagine most new editors would be scared by this and disengage. Which I assume is exactly the intended result.

    Irksome habits like continually blanking their talk page, while not forbidden, certainly does make it more difficult to interact with them.

    Every interaction between him and other editors that I've observed over the past few days is aggressive and just attempts to bludgeon the enemy into submission rather than engage in a productive discussion with them. It is good that they insist on correctness and verification through reliable sources, but they take it to such an extreme that nobody can work with them. This makes them a net negative to the project.

    I count 19 blocks, spanning 12 years, for QuackGuru already. It's hard to imagine that any additional attempts at behavior modification will be any more successful than the past ones. It's time to cut our losses. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:12, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    QuackGuru has been very productive in Wikiproject Medicine articles...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    QuackGuru has done good work over the years. I agree with a fair number of the concerns they raised at the pod mod article. Their redirect with the claim that it is a "hoax article" however is not accurate and I would advise them to be more careful with their words. Not sure I see the issue with this notice.[28] I had a personalized notice placed upon my talk page about the existence of DS with respect to gun related issues a few days ago.[29] I took it as a useful FYI. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:16, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree with Doc James. Clearly some concerns raised here are valid, but just as clearly some are overstated. The volume and quality of QuackGuru's work is impressive. I agree they need to improve their collaboration. But a ban is over the top. Cloudjpk (talk) 20:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose ban QuackGuru operates in Wikipedia's most controversial medical spaces. I perceive QuackGuru to be an advocate for the consumer, medical journals, and WP:MEDRS standards. Most commonly QuackGuru is in conflict with editors who advocate for or sympathize with the position in alignment with corporate industries well known for aggressive propaganda in favor of harmful health practices. In this case we are talking about nicotine use where a billion-dollar industry is selling a drug with health effects and which is lobbying globally to control the conversation. Everyone who edits the Wikipedia nicotine articles will be read by a billion people including all journalists, lobbyists, doctors, policy makers, and the lawyers in the related lawsuits. The money tied up here is obscene considering that advocacy for science in this space has no budget, and in large part is defended by QuackGuru with support of others. When Wikipedia is the target of hundreds of paid lobbyists I expect missteps and misunderstandings from any volunteer editor. I do not perceive the problem here to be QuackGuru, but rather, the center of the problem is the topic itself and the infinite funding available to pay people to endlessly argue the minutiae of the topic to the limits of the Wikipedia process. Most people who edit here are not lobbyists but propaganda is in the heads of everyone who thinks about this topic and extreme caution is a useful norm for this space. QuackGuru knows the wiki bureaucracy and runs discussions and editing discussions by wiki process. I expect content in this space to move slowly and be more cautious than in other articles where a billion dollars and national economies are not the stakes of what Wikipedia publishes and which politicians read when they are making laws. If anyone enters such controversial topics then they should expect bureaucracy, be forgiving, move slowly, and feel free to call on mediation processes such as seeking comment from WikiProjects such as WP:MED or any lightweight process such as WP:3O. I understand why anyone would be frustrated in such unusual articles but this is how extreme controversy works on wiki. The environment is crazy and everyone who enters it will have to abandon some humanity and become a bit of a robot and bureaucrat. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose ban per Bluerasberry. It is regrettable that QG causes frustration but the topics are frustrating with conflicting interests colliding. I have not checked all relevant edits, but I have seen that QG is on the side of reliable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 23:53, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose ban after reading the thread, the underlying issue is literally just a content dispute in a contentious topic area which has gotten out of hand. Content disputes in such subjects are not unexpected/infrequent and sometimes editors who are party to one − myself included − make errors in judgment. That is absolutely not a suitable justification for a site ban unless said error is particularly eggregious. Personally, I think everyone involved should just take a step back, take some time to cool off for a day or two, then come back to the table to discuss the issue and sort out the underlying problem. I don't think anyone who is a party to this dispute is currently acting in an appropriate manner for the purpose of dispute resolution; dispute resolution involves identifying underlying issues, correctly interpreting and applying relevant content policy, and trying to find common ground. In other words, take some time to cool off and make the effort to talk it out; do not neglect engaging in a discussion with all involved parties on a talk page or escalate further argument by making baseless inflammatory accusations pertaining to behavioral policies, applying unfaithful interpretations of content policy as justifications, or otherwise undermining the dispute resolution process. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - The basis for this complaint is invalid. There is quite literally nothing wrong with performing a unilateral blank-and-redirect in good faith, per both deletion and redirection policies. If such an act is contested, it can be reverted and discussed and proceed to dispute resolution, just like any other content dispute. As a matter of policy, and contrary to the OP's claims, it is not considered to be either disruptive or an inappropriate circumvention of deletion process. ~Swarm~ {sting} 23:15, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - No good reason given. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:11, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. As other's have mentioned, the basis of the complaints were invalid, and the doubling down trying to get a site ban after the initial section didn't gain traction looks like battleground behavior that has no place in a DS topic. If RoySmith was actually a regular in the topic I'd suggest a WP:BOOMERANG in the form of either a topic ban or interaction ban for RoySmith to try to settle the topic down, so I'd at least suggest a decent sized WP:TROUT instead.
    My understanding based on when I see QuackGuru's editing pop up here is that QuackGuru often acts through WP:STEWARDSHIP in e-cig topics, and those in content disputes with Quack are trying to portray that as WP:OWN here instead. If advocacy is still a problem in this subject that gets stewards acting terse while still engaging in discussion (which seems to be the case when you look at diffs or lack thereof vs. claims made at this ANI about Quack), the DS need to be enforced more stringently to the cut to the source of the disruption. I haven't seen anything presented here that indicates Quack is a true source of disruption in the topic (and I'd change my mind if I did), much less the entire project. This ANI reads as an attempt at a gotcha of a frustrated editor in order to win a content dispute though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Propose small measures applying to all parties

    (originally part of ban discussion) QuackGuru is a bit of a Wikidragon, and does write large amounts of content. As BlueRaspberry points out, this is an area in which content is expected to move slowly, so QG's wish to make drastic changes causes more conflict. I do not see QuackGuru as always being on the side of the evidence: short example. However, I do not see this as sufficient reason to ban. I'd suggest the following remedies, all of which should apply to everyone in this topic area, not just QuackGuru:

    • the same standards should apply to one's own edits as one applies to the edits of others. Editors should avoid COI by not removing templates criticizing their own content, unless they have a good-faith belief that the problem has been fixed (not the belief that it never existed).
    • we should not template things that are easier to fix than to template.
    • fv tags may be hard to understand. Inline tags in this topic area should have a informative |reason= parameter, and may be deleted if none is supplied by an editor aware of the need.
    • all edits in this controversial area should initially be made incrementally. Only after incremental addition of content fails should an RfC be used to add the content. An RFC should not be started before the matter and the RfC question have been discussed on the talk page.
    • any non-minor edits suggested by declared COI editors should seek talk page consensus before inclusion in the article.
    • long reverts, especially reverts of several weeks of complex good-faith edits by multiple editors, should be clearly labeled as "reversion to version of [timestamp]". Discussion should not be avoided.
    • it is not OK to follow the letter of rules, but circumvent their spirit. Misuses of process, such as getting a consensus for deleting an article in order to replace it with a version one has already written, should not be undertaken.
    • in this controversial area, we should avoid doing things that curtail or hide talk discussions, such as needless discussion forking, manual archiving, and using WP:G7 to delete and immediately recreate pages.
    • DS notifications, formal or informal, should not be repeated more than once a year, or made in a way that implies personal criticism or threat. Generally, the matter should only be raised with the formal template.
    • per Wikipedia:Citation overkill, two or three citations may be used to support a single sentence. Per convention, different citations may be used to support different parts of the same sentence. Where it is simple, these citations should be separated so that it is obvious what section of the sentence they support (for instance, a citation at the end of each clause: Smith said X[1], and Jones said Y[2]). Where this would contort the sentence structure or otherwise impede readability, Template:Refn may be used to insert a note clarifying which fact comes from which source.
    Is there anyone who feels that their editing would be seriously hindered by following these guidelines? HLHJ (talk) 15:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposed editing restrictions short of a ban

    I don't think a ban as justified at the moment, but having read this thread its clear that QG's approach to editing in this is not without problems. Accordingly I think restrictions should of a topic ban should be tried first - I'm thinking perhaps in the eCigs topic area:

    1. 1 revert restriction.
    2. A revert of anything that is not self-evidently vandalism or a personal attack must be explained on the relevant talk page.
    3. Prohibition on converting an article to a redirect. They may propose merging and/or redirecting on the talk page, and they may nominate for deletion.
    4. Prohibition on moving any page to or from draftspace. They may propose doing so on the talk page.
    5. No significant addition or removal of content without first getting consensus on the talk page.
    6. No placing tags (including failed verification and citation needed) on an article without first either (a) rewording the content to match the source, and/or (b) attempting to find (alternative) sources that do verify the content. In all cases the actions must come with explanation that allows other editors to understand both what the problem is and the reason for it - including use of the reason= parameter. Thryduulf (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unable to support "No significant addition or removal of content without first getting consensus on the talk page." Not clear what "significant" means. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Doc James: instead of throwing out the whole thing over a minor detail, propose either a way to determine what "significant" means or propose an alternative. This isn't dissimilar to the attitude that's causing many of the problems in this topic area. Thryduulf (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • User:Thryduulf I have received death threats via twitter and requests that my university fire me for my editing of e-cig content. To say it mildly this is a controversial topic area with editors with financial conflicts attempting to suppress concerns (to be clear I am not making this claim about anyone involved in this discussion currently). Well QuackGuru and I do not always agree we are generally able to find something we can both live with. Of your suggestions which I have numbered I would support the 6th (but I would support it for all involved). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • That is horrible. I'm sorry you are both dealing with death threats and intimidation. It says something that anyone edits in this area voluntarily.
    Thryduulf, are you thinking of some limit on the proportion of the article, or number of facts, changed in a given period? I said "incremental" above, which is not much more concrete than "non-significant"; I meant changes submitted to the article as they are written, and not en-masse. Belatedly, I think there might a problem with WP:FIXED here. Reverting excessively large undiscussed edits is an option, but then the article still turns into a series of RfCs about warring versions, rather than a collaboration. I'd prefer RfCs about individual concepts of content, not entire articles; the discussion is apt to be more substantive, and the end article better. It might get us a bit farther from arguing over sourcing rules, and towards assessing balance of evidence. Maybe we could try presenting an argument for both sides in discussion, reciprocally? Sadly, I've found myself spending more time on the less content-concerned discussions, like this one, simply because they are more antagonistic and thus clamour for attention. HLHJ (talk) 03:51, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Why do you "prefer RfCs about individual concepts of content, not entire articles"? Is it because I proposed a draft and I gained consensus to replace the older versions with the expanded version? Read this comment: "there are so many problems with the main article that it is a bit shameful WP allows work like this to remain."[30] Editors were disappointed with the older version. User:Sunrise closed the RfC. See Talk:Heat-not-burn product/Archive_8#Older_versions_or_expanded_version. QuackGuru (talk) 04:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Doc James: I am not attempting to defend or downplay any of that behaviour from SPAs et al, it is indefensible, but none of that excuses the bad behaviour exhibited by QG. Proposal 6 (thanks for numbering them by the way, that is helpful) could indeed be applied to editors generally - and discretionary sanctions are authorised for the topic area. However I don't think that alone gets to the heart of the issues with QG's editing.
    @HLHJ: I don't regard proportion of an article as a useful measure as it categorises rewriting two sentences of a one-paragraph stub is vastly more significant than rewriting two sentences of an article that is multiple pages long, yet the effect of the changes may be more significant on the latter (depending on the detail, obviously). Number of facts changed is a better measure, but again it depends on the detail - if you're updating figures to match the latest released version of statistics everyone agrees are relevant then that is really only one change despite many different facts being changed and in many circumstances wont be controversial. However changing just one fact by switching from one source to a different one could be very significant, especially if one or both are (allegedly) partisan. It really needs to be something like "does this materially change what is being said?" or "is the source used to verify what I'm adding/removing/changing controversial?" and if the answer is yes, then it's a significant change, and if the answer is no then it wont be in most circumstances.
    @QuackGuru: RfCs only really work when the question being asked is focused and specific. This is almost always vastly easier to achieve when dealing with individual items of content than dealing with whole articles. The comment you quote is a good example of one that is unfocussed and woolly essentially to the point of being useless. Be specific - explain what the problem is, why its a problem, what would be better and why that would be better. Then do the same for the next problem. Thryduulf (talk) 09:55, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The HNB article was like a stub by my standard. There was little content in the lede and the writing was incoherent. My proposal was to expand every section of the article. HLHJ was still complaining about the article after I expanded it. The solution was to start specific RfCs to resolve the remaining disputes. There was a previous RfC that was malformed. See Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_7#RfC on solid tobacco heated using external heat sources. Those issues were unresolved. I eventually started RfCs to address the concerns. I left it up to the community to decide. See Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#IQOS_content and see other RfCs such as Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#Pyrolyse. QuackGuru (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • oppose Agree with Ozzie10aaaa and Doc James. I also agree that QG has problem behavior. But this is not the solution. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:02, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per nom. I personally don't want to see QG banned, and I think this is a reasonable stopgap measure. — Ched (talk) 10:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per Doc James. I've had a fair bit of contact with QG. I won't deny QG can be a little stubborn and pedantic, but I've never had cause for a second to think he is biased. He genuinely has neutrality and the interests of the encyclopedia at heart and these proposed sanctions are an over-reaction. -- Begoon 10:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Honestly, I think banning QG from ecigs would be a net positive for him and the project. Of all the editors with whom I agree (and I do agree with almost everything he writes), he is the closest I have come to asking for a siteban. Guy (help!) 11:21, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - As I said above, the complaint is invalid. There is quite literally nothing wrong with this user performing a unilateral blank-and-redirect, per both deletion and redirection policies. As a matter of policy, and contrary to the OP's claims, it is not considered to be either disruptive or an inappropriate circumvention of deletion process. It should be treated like any other content dispute, not dragged to AN/I. Looking at the above section, this was already pointed out, and the OP seems to be ignoring it. ~Swarm~ {sting} 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't think I support this proposal but as I think the first person to point out redirection does not need an AFD and may not even need discussion (05:58, 27 September 2019), can't say I agree QuackGuru did nothing wrong. As me, DocJames and others have said, calling it a hoax was clearly wrong. Firstly while the article had problems, it was not a hoax. Regardless of the merits of the blank and redirect, you can't just go around using misleading summaries when doing so. It confuses the hell out of other editors and provides no understanding of why you did the blank and redirect. Frankly no edit summary would be better than the one they provided. QuackGuru was an experienced editor, so they should have recognised this was not a hoax and they should have not called it one. Second, if QuackGuru genuinely believed the article was a hoax, then simply blanking and deleting was not the solution. Perhaps blanking and deleting was okay as an interim measure, but they should have immediately moved to having the article deleted after that. We cannot allow hoax articles to hang around in main space lest people accidentally or intentionally revert to them, or copy their content. Nil Einne (talk) 22:01, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      Please see my updated edit summary. QuackGuru (talk) 23:47, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      Your second edit summary was better but still somewhat unclear. The fact that a blog is used or some of the content failed verification is not itself a reason to blank and redirect. AFAIK at least some of the content did match the citation. You seem to have a decent level of English, so I have no idea why you couldn't have just left an edit summary like "Blanking as most of the content appears to fail verification" if that was your opinion. Frankly though, if you had just left the second edit summary the first time around I think me and at least some others wouldn't care so much. Again, as an experienced editor you should not need someone bugging you on your talk page to tell you how utterly confusing your first edit summary was. Further (other than the updated summary) AFAIK you never provided an comment on your use of such an utterly confusing edit summary or at least you hadn't on the original ANI discussion despite having multiple days to do last I checked. And as I said elsewhere it's not like you were super busy doing something else, you were able to directly respond to people who posted to the ANI when you had issues with what they said. A simple "sorry I was wrong to call it a hoax, don't know what I was thinking" or whatever would have at least provided some clue you recognised the problem. Ultimately though, whatever you did do afterwards, my main point stands which is I disagree that you did nothing wrong since you did initially use that edit summary and it took someone asking on your talk page for any clarification. Nil Einne (talk) 10:50, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per DocJames. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:21, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per Swarm, DocJames, and others. Discretionary sanctions are already in effect in the topic, and any restrictions through them should apply to all editors, not just one who actually seems to be following WP:FOC here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support: But definitely would also strongly support a compromise in specifics with the issues presented by Doc James and those who feel similarly as I feel their concerns have merit. Waggie (talk) 23:02, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: per the good Doc James. Significance differs from person to person, and there's really nothing wrong with what QuackGuru did, as Swarm rightly notes. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 21:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Thryduulf's proposal, largely with the same feeling as Guy. If "don't place tags without genuinely trying to WP:SOFIXIT first" is too complicated, then a full TBAN is an option. For context, I just had a long and frustrating chat at WT:MED (until I gave up, because life's too short to keep explaining simple facts to people who are very highly motivated to not listen). In this conversation, Quack was apparently able to look at images like this shield-shaped product and this long, skinny one and still desperately trying to convince everyone that "different sizes and shapes" was a hopelessly unverifiable claim that urgently needed to be removed from the article. I don't think that the inability to see what's plainly in front of your nose is either "nothing wrong" (to quote Javert2113's description) or what we need in an editor who gravitates to controversial subjects. I'm thinking about the intersection of WP:COMPETENCE, WP:THERAPY, and WP:BOGO: If you are unable or unwilling to admit that those products aren't all the same size and and shape, then I really don't think that the rest of the community should spend this many hours (for years and years and years – has anyone ever written a complete list of the many previous bans and restrictions?) to you overcome your limitations. I'm perfectly willing to take names for the list of volunteer mentors, though. If others really want to dedicate their wiki-lives to mediating these questions, then that's okay with me. "Y'all should just put up with his rigid thinking and obsessiveness and find ways to work around it. I'm gonna go do something easier and more fun" isn't what the project needs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:15, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per DocJames and BMK. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 11:01, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per Swarm. Buffs (talk) 15:24, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • No point. I assure you on the basis of extensive personal experience that you will never change QG's behaviour. No amount of handwringing or exhortation will have the slightest effect. Tbanning him will work; any other sanction is exactly the same as doing nothing. And Tban proposals relating to this editor never get any traction. QG does genuinely good work fending off advocates and SPAs. This makes him useful to MEDRS, and thus editors active in MEDRS appreciate him and show up to defend him against Tbans (although most of them will acknowledge that he does display some behavioural problems). I personally raised this with Arbcom in 2015 and they couldn't change him. Neither can AN/I. This is why we have QG --- one of Wikipedia's most often-sanctioned editors, and a person with massive control issues and extreme IDHT, running off the leash and hounding away editors who demonstrate considerably better judgement than he does. I still hope that maybe one day QG will do something so egregious that his MEDRS buddies can't save him, but it is not this day.—S Marshall T/C 02:46, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I use quality sources including MEDRS-compliant sources such as reviews.
      • You suggested others were IDHT about sources.[31] What about you? You repeatedly deleted a review and replaced it with popular press sources.[32][33] QuackGuru (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • The fact that you're answering with whataboutery is telling. If you believe there's a problem with my edits, please do open an AN/I on me. I've always welcomed community scrutiny.

          Listen, QG: you do use good sources, almost always. Specifically, you go through the good sources, you find a statistic, you cite the statistic extremely thoroughly, you attribute it carefully, and you insert it into the article next to other statistics about the same topic. This produces something that looks superficially like a paragraph of text, but isn't. A QG "paragraph" is in fact a bullet-point list of statistics that's been disguised by removing the bullets. And the paragraphs you remove -- the paragraphs other editors want to insert and you edit-war to prevent -- are the paragraphs that move beyond the premises that you love so much and onto thesis and conclusion. When editors want to do this you behave as if they want to violate NPOV, when in fact all they're trying to do is make an article that fucking well goes somewhere. And the IDHT in this is because I've told you all this before, and you ignore whatever I say because it's me saying it.—S Marshall T/C 18:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

          • You have not provided a single diff. But I provided diffs.[34][35] You supported this. The proposal made no sense. The entire e-cigarette aerosol article was deleted and replaced with some content from other articles. I started a real RfC. All those edits were undone. See the expanded new article. QuackGuru (talk) 18:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • It's absolutely true. I've provided no diffs. I said that you're one of Wikipedia's most sanctioned editors. Nobody who's got any business closing AN/I discussions will have got all the way down to here without checking that point, so diffs are needless. I've described your behaviour accurately, and that's easily checkable from the diffs provided by others. And I've given a recommendation to the closer, which is that there's no point giving you sanctions that fall short of a topic ban. Arbcom weren't able to rein you in, discretionary sanctions weren't able to rein you in, and in fact your disciplinary log is clear evidence that nothing short of a topic ban will make the slightest difference to your behaviour. And you're responding with diffs from four years ago that Arbcom have already seen and dealt with by way of a resounding yawn.—S Marshall T/C 13:55, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
              • Arbcom has not seen and dealt with you removing a 2014 review in May 2016. Why did you replace a review with popular press articles?[36][37] A review is a higher quality source than popular press articles.
              • See a random diff from 2017: "Some researchers and anti-tobacco advocates are concerned that irresponsible marketing could make e-cigarettes appeal to young people.[81][57]"[38] You claimed the sources verify "anti-tobacco advocates". Where does the sources verify "young people"? You think authors of e-cig research are "anti-tobacco advocates"? You don't like the word youth? Is it because marketing to youth has a negative connotation for the e-cig industry? Now there is an entire section on marketing to youth in a new article.
              • Citation 81 verifies "E-cigarette marketing may entice adults and children. Citation 52 verifies "E-cigarettes may appeal to youth because of their high-tech design, large assortment of flavors, and easy accessibility online."
              • You previously stated "QG does genuinely good work fending off advocates and SPAs." Do you acknowledge you added content that failed verification? QuackGuru (talk) 14:20, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
                • Lol, I acknowledge that I've often added content that fails your interpretation of verification. You think that anything that isn't directly taken from an academic source is inadmissible. Incidentally, the reason why WP:V explicitly tells you not to violate copyright is because nearly ten years ago, I personally put that in. Nowadays my original phrase has become a whole paragraph, because people citing sources too exactly has been a serious problem.

                  As I said, if you think my edits are problematic then you're welcome to open an AN/I on me below: I'll happily respond to them there. But this thread is about your behaviour.—S Marshall T/C 20:23, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposed editing restrictions for e-cigs

    A key part of the problem is unsourced and failed verification content. Accordingly I suggest these restrictions on policy violations:

    1. Prohibition on unsourced content. If there is no citation at the end of the claim it is considered unsourced content
    2. Prohibition on failed verification content. If the citation does not completely verify the claim it is considered failed verification content.

    Anyone violating these restrictions more than once in a one week period is topic banned. They would have to be warned about the first violation before they would be topic banned for the second violation.

    So you want to give them the power to TBAN opposing editors, just on their say-so? Did you intend your support comment to apply to the proposal it's tagged beneath? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:56, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    DS are already in effect in the topic, so "opposing" editors (or anyone) can be topic banned if their behavior is disruptive, contributing to a battleground mentality, or causing other editors to be terse. For instance, when an editor such as Andy Digley exhibits battleground behavior in their comments at this ANI towards QuackGuru, that can be a good indication to admins that they should be topic or interaction-banned in order to cut down disruption in the topic. I went looking at the talk pages to try to verify some of your claims about Quack, but I'm already seeing some hounding of Quack on the talk pages here and here where you're unable to WP:FOC at article talk pages and more interested in hounding QuackGuru who actually was engaging in content. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Andy Dingley, not based on someone's say-so. Concern has been raised, and after reviewing the situation QuackGuru is, in my opinion, clearly overly aggressive in this topic area, based on own behavior. I also do believe that you are correct in that I posted my support in the incorrect proposal here. I have struck my support here. I support Thrydulff's proposal, as I believe that will yield sufficient results in this situation. Waggie (talk) 23:00, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support the ideas in theory, but the discertionary sanctions should already be tamping down or removing editors that are causing problems in these two areas, so any admin can enforce this already. Given the battelground behavior I'm seeing at this ANI that appears to be mostly one-sided after not looking at an e-cig page for some years, it's clear the discretionary sanctions need to be enforced in general to cut that behavior out. I'm mostly seeing QuackGuru sticking to content while others are more focused on QuackGuru here, so fixing the latter battlegrounding should alleviate some of the terseness coming from QuackGuru (which isn't sanctionable in the first place). I'd sure stick to focusing on content and not responding to WP:BAITING comments like in this section. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Battleground? I'd remind you that QuackGuru began this by falsely describing this as "Redirect non-notable hoax article.". It is not acceptable to attack multiple other editors like this and to accuse them of creating hoaxes. This isn't merely a difference of opinion, it's an accusation of fraudulent editing. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:40, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    What did the updated edit summary state? QuackGuru (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Funny looking sort of apology. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:02, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - using a sledgehammer to crack the wrong nut. Will cause more trouble, not less. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Near the start of this thread, WhatamIdoing stated, "It's my impression that QuackGuru is very frequently concerned that anything short of plagiarism might not be true enough to the cited source." I've seen QuackGuru do this various times, and his odd interpretation of verification has gotten him in plagiarism trouble before. As seen here, an editor brought plagiarism to his attention. Also, here in a different ANI thread, Doc James stated, "They closely follows sources which is generally a good thing. Agree with the concerns around them adding FV tags as sometimes it is appropriate to paraphrase more." Needless to state, his faulty "failed verification" tags are a big issue. Somehow QuackGuru got it in his head that we can't summarize a source's words, like we are supposed to do if not quoting the source and if WP:LIMITED doesn't apply. If an editor uses their own words to summarize a source's text, you can expect QuackGuru to add a "failed verification" tag. This has got to stop. It is one of the more problematic aspects of his editing. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:04, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose the requirement that every fact be followed by a citation. The table that User:HLHJ put above is, in my experience, a remarkably accurate illustration of what's Quack wants. We need well-writing articles that contain verifiable contents and present all perspectives in WP:DUE weight. The overall goal is almost unrelated to whether or not there's an inline citation after every piece of terminal punctuation. Nobody wants {{fv}} content. The problem here is what happens when one editor perseverates in declaring a fact to have failed verification after multiple other editors tell him that he's wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:21, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per WP:NOTPERFECT. These restrictions are too onerous. Buffs (talk) 18:19, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. No need when arbcom DS are in effect anyway - this would just add more surface area to wikilawyer about. Alexbrn (talk) 14:00, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Next step?

    There is I think consensus above that something needs to be done regarding QuackGugu's editing behaviour, at least in the e-cigs topic area. There is though no obvious consensus for any specific action. This means we need to decide how we move forward in a way that benefits the project. What is that way?

    • Option 1 is to ignore it and hope the behaviour goes away, after all these years of it being repeated and not going away at all?
    • Option 2 is to, as S Marshall puts it: "Issue another warning, in the hope that the frowny face and waggy finger of administorial disapproval somehow works this time, after all these years of having no effect?"
    • Option 3 is for an uninvolved admin to issue a discretionary sanction (Arbcom authorised discretionary sanctions in the e-cigs topic area in the case)
    • Option 4 is to hand the matter to arbcom as we, the community, have clearly failed to solve the problem.

    I support 3 or 4, with a very slight preference for the latter. I do not support options 1 or 2. Thryduulf (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • Option 4. In the few paragraphs I was able to read in this discussion, it looks like there are a lot of legal implications involving the subject area which QuackGuru usually edits. For that reason, I think it would be wise for Arbcom to take on this case and see if there might be underlying reasons for an action that we have yet to discuss here. I have never edited in this area myself, but from reading this in from my experiences with knowing how the media is portraying the subject these days, I can tell this is a highly pretentious subject area and the concerns regarding QuackGuru's editing need to be handled very carefully and thoughtfully. Steel1943 (talk) 02:26, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hilarious though it would be for AN/I to decide that QG deserves yet another last chance, out of the options above it's clearly in Wikipedia's best interests to refer the matter to Arbcom. Again. 3 is a non-starter. If any of the DS-enforcing admins knew what to do about QG, they would have done it. Arbcom has no magic powers either, of course, but it can't allow its own previous decisions to be ignored, so a referral to Arbcom will be just like issuing a Tban here and now. But with more delay, process and bureaucracy.—S Marshall T/C 09:20, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Option four: QG is back at it again, flagrantly violating wp:soap within this article: 2019 United States outbreak of lung illness linked to vaping products - any attempt to adjust the article results in a revert and a passive-aggressive message! they have accused me of shilling:

    The hospital bed patient and image is a salient topic. Anyone can create a new article. It is a violation of NPOV to hide the content under a rug.

    — QuackGuru
    • Option 3 Admins are empowered to impose DS in this area, so one may step up and do it. Sooner would be better than later judging by how much time/attention this has consumed already. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:04, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • The issue appears to be that the community disagrees regarding the degree of the present problem / what the problem is. As raised by a few people there is some concerns around QG use of "failed verification" tags. And what degree of paraphrasing is allowed / required by copyright. An option that addresses that would be something I would consider. Maybe something like "Option 5 QG must post on the talk page when they feel something fails verification, if another editor agrees with them than the tag can be placed. Otherwise they are free to go about rephrasing the text in question per normal editing practice" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:39, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree his abrasive nature (e.g implying I'm a shill) wastes time that could be put to more productive things Mfernflower (talk)
    • I was not here for the citation issues, my main complaint is he has included and emotionally defended patient testimonials copypasted from news sites in the 2019 lung disease article in flagrant violation of wp:soap and wp:nothere Mfernflower (talk) 12:47, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • None of the above options I'm not seeing any consensus that something needs to be done, let alone what. Swarm and others feel the complaint is invalid. To me this seems largely a content dispute. However I agree Quackguru has been abrasive, but not to a level worthy of restriction. I have dealt with prickly editors whose contributions remain valuable. A few editors here are concerned about QuackGuru's use of failed verification tags. The tags were created for a reason; it is not disruptive to use them for the purpose for which they were created. Complaining on AN/I about mere use of them seems to me a frivolous complaint. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:32, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose any sanction - I'm sure this proposal was made in good faith, but I must reject the very premise of these supposed "options". Someone brings a content dispute here, falsely (objectively falsely) reporting a legitimate action as an abusive circumvention of policy, which it wasn't. This gets pointed out, then the complaint gets rewritten by numerous other users coming out of the woodwork who want to air their grievances, which are not even clearly defined or cohesive. Numerous proposals come about, none of which are successful. There is no consensus for any action. But now you're coming here, claiming that we need to formalize something, and framing "no action" as an option to "ignore the problem and hope it goes away"? Seriously? I have never, ever, seen such a thing. How silly is it to propose "Arbcom, sanction, warning, or ignore the problem"? There's no possibility for disagreement, you've just unilaterally decided that you're trying to facilitate a consensus that you claim exists, as an involved complainant whose proposal for sanction was rejected. Imagine if everyone did this; made a complaint, proposed a remedy, got rejected, and then started a subsection saying "okay, we now have a community consensus that my complaint is valid and that something must be done. So choose between Arbcom, sanction, and warn. Anyone who wants no action can get put down as 'wanting to ignore the problem.'" It's just so deceptive it's wrong, and so was the original complaint. I'm not saying none of the complaints about QG are legitimate, but I refuse to support or even consider any proposals for sanctions that are facilitated by gamey tactics such as deceptive wording, false pretenses, moving goalposts, or outright lies. If QG is half as disruptive as people are claiming he is, then there should be no problem coming here with a concise complaint, diffs that speak for themselves, and a clear remedy to be proposed. This thread was dirty from the start and the optics of this proposal are just terrible. If you have a proposal to make that you want considered, make it. But opening with a presumption of guilt and telling us to decide between "do something" or "ignore the problem" is so incredibly wrong. That's not how it works. "No action" is the default. AGF is the default. The only real way forward that I can envision starts with this horrible thread being put out of its misery. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:11, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Uncivil and disruptive behaviour by IP at Talk:Singapore

    A while ago, I did a few edits on Singapore, Talk:Singapore where I encountered this IP. They behave in a really hostile manner towards me. Here are some examples:

    • 1,2,3 - A persistent accusing tone and refusal to AGF
    • 1,2 - Accuses me of malicious content edits, even on a GA review page. Another editor also tried to persuade the IP to change their tone (link).
    • I had closed a section where the discussion was not productive. 4 days later they reverted me, claiming Hardly a wall of text - no need to close section; I had never mentioned anything about wall of text. When I reverted them and asked not to refactor my comments, but to post in a new section, they edit warred to remove it again claiming Nonsense, not refactoring. I am opposing your section close. And this editor is attempting to legitimise himself without actually engaging on the talk page about his vague misleading edits..
    • 1 - Attempting to bait/provoke a response. For the record, I avoided responding since I wanted other editors to respond as well, who perhaps might have been able to convince the IP.

    This behaviour is really disruptive and not helpful for a collaborative project like Wikipedia. It takes away time from actually improving the articles, to formatting and preparing this report. I am not sure if this is enough to warrant a block. In that case perhaps an admin can convince the IP to read up some of the guidelines, particularly those about civility? Or if editors could monitor the discussion, that would be helpful as well.--DreamLinker (talk) 19:37, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    For a starter, I blocked the third IP for two weeks, which matches the duration of the second IP block--Ymblanter (talk) 19:46, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Ymblanter, thank you for helping me out. I guess for now this is good enough. If the IP reappears and continues the disruptive behaviour, I will let you know again.--DreamLinker (talk) 03:51, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Bad faith edits by user despite warnings

    عمرو_بن_كلثوم is consistently editing on Wikipedia with bad faith despite push back from other editors like here. Edits like these[42][43][44][45][46][47] are problematic, persistent and keep getting reverted for a reason. Moreover, comments like these make his intentions on Wikipedia clear [48]. --Semsurî (talk) 11:30, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Interesting. How is adding an official, sourced map of Kurdistan as suggested by the Treaty of Sevres problematic or bad faith? You can depict anything that goes against your VERY biased POV as bad faith. For some reason, many of the articles dealing with Kurdish issues in Syria simply have serious neutrality issues, and some users who try to keep the status quo are preventing any attempt at adding neutral sources. They insist on using maps and information from suspicious sources, with credibility issues. I have started a discussion on the RSN about theses. Also see the talk pages for Rojava and Rojava conflict articles for more information about the neutrality discussions there. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    When editors for years tell you to end this type of editing, it's time to stop.[49]. And removing whole pages to combat what you call Kurdish propaganda is not the way forward. --Semsurî (talk) 15:42, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    This may be a content dispute. It might be more constructive and probably faster to go through WP:Dispute resolution 107.77.203.224 (talk) 19:15, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Dublin genre warrior, multiple IPs

    Somebody from Dublin is involved in long-term genre warring at music articles. The usual focus is on pop rock acts such as Imagine Dragons, Coldplay, Train, etc. Typical behavior is to use an IP for a day and then move on to another IP. Below, I have appended a list of involved IPs. A few of these have been blocked, for instance 95.83.249.8. Is there any kind of rangeblock that will stop most of the IPs without too much collateral damage? Binksternet (talk) 17:45, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]


    Based on my very basic knowledge of IPs and some googling, it appears the range 95.83.253.240/32 would cover all but the oldest one. I'm not sure how much collateral a /32 range has. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 17:59, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    A lad insane, uh, a /32 is exactly one IP :). WHOIS says that the .249 and .253 addresses are on separate subnets (.249 is a /22, .253 is a /23) and the ISP's overall block is 95.83.248.0/21. I can't look too deeply right now, but I'd recommend checking the whole /21 in case there's more of these out there. If it's just .249 and .253, I'd recommend blocking 95.83.249.0/24 and 95.83.253.0/24 to avoid collateral damage. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 18:06, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, and the March entry (95.152.62.198) is in Russia (all of the others are Ireland), so either unrelated, proxy/VPN, or someone's travelling. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 18:08, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Oops, sorry. I guess that demonstrates the "basic knowledge" aspect. :) -A lad insane (Channel 2) 18:10, 17 October 2019 (UTC) [reply]
    Agree with Creffett that a /24 is the widest you should consider, though blocking a couple of those /24's may be OK. Look over the edits of Special:Contributions/95.83.249.0/24 and you will see mostly the work of this one vandal. EdJohnston (talk) 18:11, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    95.83.249.0/24 and 95.83.253.0/24 ranges blocked.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:26, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Move without reason

    Degen Earthfast is reminded that:
    1. Other editors are allowed to object to an undiscussed move and revert it.
    2. Such objections do not imply ownership issues
    3. Move-warring is inappropriate, and is a blockable offense
    4. Copy & paste moves are prohibited
    Paul August ☎ 01:46, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Could you look at these articles' history - Nirbheek and Indian Ordnance Factories Nirbheek, and look at my talk page too. There is no such name, Indian Ordnance Factories Nirbheek. I have given valid reference and the article was on DYK. I check the user talk page and it seems to "problematic" and i don't like to engage in edit war. Therefore, i request admin to talk action. Please direct Indian Ordnance Factories Nirbheek to Nirbheek and "inform" user (Degen Earthfast) too. Thanks. --AntanO 17:47, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    I have reverted the copy & paste move at Indian Ordnance Factories Nirbheek - meaning the only version of the article is at Nirbheek. @Degen Earthfast: if you want to move the page please use WP:RM and if you continue to move-war you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 17:53, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh and @AntanO: you should discuss matters with an editor before coming to ANI and you HAVE to notify them. GiantSnowman 17:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) Since the move was reverted, a proper move request is now due. Alternating to a cut and paste move via redirecting was inappropriate. But user should have been informed that this report has been filed, which was not done. El_C 17:56, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, noted. --AntanO 18:00, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    You, E1_C, do not get to decide what is or is not appropriate just because you disagree with something.Degen Earthfast (talk) 18:34, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, as the uninvolved admin examining this report, I get to evaluate it and issue corrective action, if needed. El_C 18:43, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow. Grandpallama (talk) 19:13, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    The move was in accordance with WP precedence even if you do not agree with it, are either of you, Antano and Giant Snowman, claiming ownership of said article? There is no ownership of articles in WP, they can be moved without your knowledge or opinion. See Wikipedia is not a Democracy Degen Earthfast (talk) 18:24, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    That's not really what Giant Snowman and El_C are saying. They're saying that (a) your cut and paste move violated policy, and (b) when someone disagrees with a move, you need to have a discussion before moving it again. That's not an example of them trying to own anything. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:45, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Degen Earthfast: - please listen to me, El_C and Floquenbeam and plese stop making wild accusations. GiantSnowman 18:47, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Was your move in line with WP:COMMONNAME? That's precedence, too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:46, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Manufactured objects are generally known by their brand Name followed by their product, in case of weapons for example see Colt Python, Heckler & Koch G3, ad nauseam. Try looking up Python. Degen Earthfast (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    The content dispute, itself, does not belong on this report — it needs to take place on the article talk page. El_C 19:02, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a Naming dispute in which [User:AntanO|Antan]]O has apparently staked ownership AND again Wikipedia is not a Democracy and Wikipedia:Be bold. Degen Earthfast (talk) 19:09, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Instead of bludgeoning us with links to these policy pages, think WP:ONUS is the pertinent link you should review. El_C 19:11, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I made my point. Antano has apparently claimed this article and objects to any editing done to it, to include moving it.Degen Earthfast (talk) 19:17, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    This level of WP:IDHT gets frustrating after a while. As does repeated passive-aggressive whining about imaginary "ownership" issues. The page will stay at it's current name until there is a consensus to move it. This consensus should be gained thru WP:RM. Everything else is sound and fury, signifying nothing. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:22, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    There obviously is "ownership" issues" so there is no " passive-aggressive whining" thanks for not being an impartial administrator and not helping.Degen Earthfast (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not see ownership issues. I see a bold move by Degen Earthfast, a revert by Antano, and...the next step in the WP:BRD process would be discussion, but I do not see where Degen Earthfast has started any discussion about the move at Talk:Nirbheek. —C.Fred (talk) 20:27, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Reverting an undiscussed move and calling for discussion is not "ownership." Please read the policies you keep telling others to consult. Grandpallama (talk) 13:58, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    It's perhaps worth remembering that a cut and paste move doesn't just violate policy, it potentially violates copyright as well. Just because our contributors have chosen a free content licence doesn't mean their copyright shouldn't be respect, and so we need to make sure we comply with the terms they licenced their content under. Nil Einne (talk) 19:42, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Birbal Kumawat

    There was recently a report about this editor which was closed since they hadn't edited in a couple months. However, they seem to be back, still trying to push their idiosyncratic views about English grammar (despite having a very poor command themselves) – some diffs: [50] (as an IP), [51], [52], [53], [54]. It might be time to take further action here. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 01:41, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Oh, and I forgot to include a link to the original thread for convenience. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:13, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Blocked 31 hours. Some of this person's edits are incompetent bordering on disruptive. The latest edits, however, are starting to look like trolling. I suspect this editor is probably going to end up indefinitely blocked if this keeps up. The older edits could at least be construed as good-faith attempts to improve content, but it's hard to say that about blanking sprees and legal threats. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:08, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    As soon as the block expired he went straight back to crazy town. EEng 18:53, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Natnannachi

    Natnannachi (talk · contribs) is engaged in a prolonged edit war at Judaism and sexuality. On July 22 he added a large amount of text to the article,[55], which I subsequently removed[56] with the edit summary "1. Original research. 2. Part of this edit was formatted awfully. 3. I'd advise this editor to seek help on the talkpage." Ever since the editor has restored his text 5 times, without engaging in discussion. I posted a warning on the user's talkpage, trying to explain that he should engage in consensus seeking on the talkpage, but to no avail. It should also be noted that this editor has not edited any other article on Wikipedia.[57] Please advice. Debresser (talk) 14:41, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    I notice you called the user a sock back in this edit. Do you have evidence for this? Other than that this seems like a clear case of disruptive editing by the user in question slow edit warring for their additions with no discussions. Canterbury Tail talk 14:55, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Benjaminkirsc reverting my edits to My Sims Agents, adding a copyvio back to the page in the process

    Hello! This happened last month but I only noticed this now. Benjaminkirsc undid my complete rewrite of My Sims Agents, citing that the information I added was "unnecessary" and had "possible incorrect grammar". However, when they did this they failed to realize that the whole reason that I rewrote the page is because the version they reverted the page to is a fairly obvious copyvio, which was mostly unsourced, and was literally written like a sales pitch, because it was one. Normally, this would just be something that I would warn a user about, but I realized that they had been reported to ANI once before. I'm honestly not sure how they could miss that they were reverting the page to a version that was literally an advertisement. TheAwesomeHwyh 00:58, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    I've been keeping an eye on Benjaminkirsc's edit since the last AN/I visit (I was hoping to see improvement), and while they've managed to stop swearing so much in edit summaries, they're still having issues with edit warring and civilly disagreeing with other editors (including a handful of undos with the edit summary "wrong," like Special:Diff/920805947 and Special:Diff/920805947. Their reactions to others on their talk page have some communications issues as well, with very brusque replies and no further engagement. creffett (talk) 01:06, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    ​FYI: the first dif you posted is of an edit by Zacharyalejandro, not Benjaminkirsc. TheAwesomeHwyh 01:19, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    TheAwesomeHwyh, oops, I always have trouble getting the right diff ID, it's probably the next diff. Thanks for pointing it out, fixed. creffett (talk) 01:24, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    I feel that the copyvio is wrong Benjaminkirsc (talk) 01:10, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    ​So... then why did you revert back to it? TheAwesomeHwyh 01:17, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Because it was a problem Benjaminkirsc (talk) 10:51, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    ​??? What? You reverted to a copyvio... because the copyvio was a problem? TheAwesomeHwyh 22:25, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposing indef block: I just took a quick look into their edit history and found these summaries showing some serious WP:CIVILITY issues. An where an IP user literally only added the number "90" to the article, which could've easily been a mistake, was reverted with the summary "WHAT WRONG WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Another, where another IP user added the wrong release date, was reverted with the summary of "YOU ARE WRONG!" Both of those edits were done after this AN/I report was filed yesterday / earlier today (depending on timezone). TheAwesomeHwyh 22:39, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    That's not related thouogh. Do that somewhere else. Benjaminkirsc (talk) 00:58, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    ​I don't think you understand. This page is for all of your behaviors, not just the one mentioned in the section title. TheAwesomeHwyh 01:04, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I can undertand what your saying but, this is talking about My Sims Agents. If you want talk about that, please let me know in my talk page. Benjaminkirsc (talk) 10:08, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    ​No, as I've already said this page is for everything related to your edits. TheAwesomeHwyh 01:13, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    TheAwesomeHwyh, your report begs the question, why didn't you tag the copyvio with {{copyvio-revdel}} to clear it out of the article's history? Why haven't you still? Cabayi (talk) 10:45, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Cabayi I don't know, actually, sorry. I've done it now. TheAwesomeHwyh 01:03, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Saqiwa and original research on Fijian chieftain lineages

    Saqiwa is an editor that flew under the radar for a few years, all of his contributions are about the geneology of Fijian chieftains, but it's only recently that someone started to notice that these edits consisted of unsourced original research, original research sourced to drawings of geneology trees (which fail verification), and "sourced" edits that fail verification.

    Reliable sourcing has been explained to him several times, here by Marchjuly, here at the Teahouse, and here by me.

    Verifying his contributions is very time consuming as the information is disjointed and because he does cite some sources, it just fails verification.

    Some examples:

    • [58][59] DrKay reverting his addition to Nakorotubu District as it all failed verification.
    • The outcome of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monarchy of Fiji was "Keep, but delete everything Saqiwa has added".
    • [60] Failed verification
    • [61] Failed verification
    • [62] Use of an unreliable thesis, explained multiple times, reinserted multiple times. The same thesis failed verification for the statement it was used for in this next edit:
    • [63] Adding large disjointed sections about geneology and intermarriage to the article Roko Malani, but it does not actually start with the article's subject Roko Malani (1754–1833) but instead a namesake who was alive in 1879. Among sources are scanned geneology trees that don't even mention the subjects.
    Source check for the above
    • Source does not mention any of the claims it's attached to in "The two brother's great grandfather, Ratu Meli Salabogi (1) declared Nakorotubu as an independent state in 1860 to protest of Ratu Seru Cakobau declaring himself as a self-styled Tui Viti during the Deed of Cession negotiation with Great Britain"
    • The 1959 installation of Ratu Sir George Cakobau by Ratu Meli Salabogi (3)'s son Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (2) proceeded without any problems or disputes is sourced to an an image of some people sitting in a circle
    • Page 243 does not verify any of "The care and benefits from the coconut plantation of the Lau Provincial Council and the Vuanirewa clan in Lakeba resulted in the diplomatic shift of Fiji's traditional and political order, as Nakorotubu ensured a smooth and favorable leadership seat for Niumataiwalu's lineage in Bau and Lau post-World War 2 and post-1970 independence during Ratu Sir George Cakobau and Ratu Sir Kamisese Mara leadership time."
    • Multiple family relations "sourced" to this document, but it does not seem to actually verify the statements it's attached to.
    • Unsourced BLP statements about the police & military intervening with someone in 2018. Note, this is in an article about someone who died in 1833.
    • [64]. Not in the cited source, the other source is from 1862 and is therefore unlikely to include comments on the marriage of someone born in 1879.
    • 10 October 2019, giving two sources, one of which doesn't mention the subject and another that a) mentions a namesake in passing but not the subject and b) is an unreliable opinion piece.
    • 13 October 2019, part failed verification, part improper use of primary sources whose existence can't be verified
    Source check for the above

    1. Roko Malani (2) - (1820-1890)[citation needed] of Lau.[1][primary source; can't verify the existence of this document] Younger brother of Ratu Tevita Uluilakeba (1), the Tui Nayau and grand nephew of Roko Malani (1). He named a newly birthed Ra chief as Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1879-1933) during his stop over visit to puakaloa vasu maternal relatives at Nabukadra village in 1879 before attending a Methodist church conference in Vuda.[citation needed]

    2. Roko Malani (1879-1933)[citation needed] of Ra.[2][primary source; can't verify the existence of this document] Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani, former Sergeant of the Fiji Armed Constabulary Force in Levuka and late Buli Kavula, son of Ratu Amenatave Dewalarua and Seleima Veinoyaki and grandson of Ra chief, Ratu Meli Salabogi mentioned in the W.J. Smythe Cession Preliminary Report of 1862. Married Adi Asinate Senirewa from the Vuanirewa clan, the daughter of Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei (younger brother of Ratu Tevita Uluilakeba (1) and Roko Malani (2) who named Roko Malani from Ra during birth in 1879). They had two issues, Ratu Meli Salabogi MBE, JP (1911-1989) and Ratu Wilisoni Tuiketei Malani OBE, JP, OSTJ (1920-2005).[citation needed]

    3. Roko Malani (1937-2013)[citation needed] of Ra. Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (2), the elder brother of Adi Laufitu Malani and son of Ratu Meli Salabogi MBE, JP (1911-1989). He traditionally endorsed and spent a night at Vatanitawake in Bau during the Vunivalu of Bau installation in 1959.[3][Can not verify existence of this source][4][Primary source, can't verify its existence; how can a source from 1918 be used for someone born in 1937?][5][not in citation given]

    References

    1. ^ Native Lands Commission (NLC) Tukutuku ni Yavusa ko Lakeba, Ratu Jekesoni Yavala-Tubou Lakeba, Lau, 1930
    2. ^ Native Lands Commission (NLC), Jone Vatuwaliwali, Nagigi, Cakaudrove, 1923.
    3. ^ Fijilive website report on Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani heritage endorsement as a descendant of the 1st Vunivalu- Nailatikau (1) & Grandson of Vueti the 1st Roko Tui Bau and Tui Viti when Ratu Sir George Cakobau was installed as the Vunivalu of Kubuna. 50 years on, Bau awaits installation of Vunivalu of Bau, Fijilive, September 18, 2009
    4. ^ Native Lands Commission (NLC), 'Tukutuku ni Yavusa Kubuna', Ratu Isoa Natuituba, 1918
    5. ^ Genealogy on the Origin of the 1st Vunivalu from Nakorotubu, Ra presented on page 31 by the late Ratu Joni Madraiwiwi, Roko Tui Bau & 2006-2009 Vice President of Fiji in 'The Life and Times of Cakobau: The Bauan State to 1855'- A thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in the University of Otago, New Zealand By Hurray P. Heasley, B.A. (Hons.), Otago. August, 2010. [1]

    Saqiwa's comments:

    • [65] "What I am concerned about is how other wikipedia editors are selective and inconsistent in applying the wikipedia rules to my articles. For the last 4 years, all my articles were not considered important, however recently there seems to have been a sudden increase to the scrutiny of my contributions, specifically when certain information/documents that were considered confidential and question certain status quo have been shared. I have now reached a stage of keeping a personal copy of my contributions in order to compare that with the reasons that a editor will use to delete or amend my articles to prove that there are ulterior motives of amending my articles through the wikipedia rules. Before, wikipedia editors would be very friendly and encouraging by guiding and amending my articles whereas, now, the only thing that I am receiving are threats of being blocked from wikipedia, which makes my conspiracy thoery more relevant."
    • [66] "can this be part of an organised watch group to suppress Fijian historical facts? [...] There is definitely something more than this, perhaps the sensitivity of the Fijian historical facts exposed?"
    • [67] "This sudden increase in scrutiny [of my edits] happened lately in the last few months when confidential information about Fiji's history were shared"
    • [68] "the recent micromanaging and scrutiny to my contributions seems to have started from the recent exposure of suppressed Fiji's history that are well documented but suppressed for reasons well known."

    – Thjarkur (talk) 15:01, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Thjarkur This is really an abuse of power in editing privilege. There is really evidence of selective editing in keeping similar sourced materials in Roko Malani compared to my articles including the Roko Malani article 1879-1933. Wikipedia should be aware that this is happening and the reputation of wikipedia is at stake.Saqiwa (talk) 03:19, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Support indefinite block or topic ban. The diffs and quotes provided above by Þjarkur clearly show that Saqiwa is determined to keep adding fringe original research to wikipedia. He has just once again misrepresented a source in this edit. The source he provided did not support the material he added, and he removed the material that opposed his view and that was reliably sourced. There have been numerous warnings and explanations at User talk:Saqiwa and they've just not worked. A block is now the only way to prevent further disruption. DrKay (talk) 16:12, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure whether WP:INDEF would be warranted at this time, but Saqiwa's tendency to perceive those who disagree with their edits are part of some WP:CONSPIRACY (both on Wikipedia and out in the real world) designed to prevent the "truth" about Fiji from being added to Wikipedia is becoming a bit of a time drain. I do think Saqiwa is sincere and means well, but at the same time all editors are expected to work within the constraints of relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines and try our best to ensure that articles are kept in accordance with these policies and guidelines as much as possible. There may indeed be problems with how the subjects Saqiwa is interested in are being covered in reliable sources, but I've tried to explain to them that it's not Wikipedia role to set the record straight and fix things.
      Assuming from the beginning that other editors just have to be WP:NOTHERE because they are challenging edits and by making comments to that extent at places like the Teahouse (e.g. Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1015#Follow-up to Editors are editing and removing my articles and demanding quotations of sources when they are already quoted.) and in edit summaries (e.g. this and this), immediately starts to move things into WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:USTHEM territory which only makes discussing them that much harder. Then, there's also a tendency to not follow WP:BRD when edits are challenged (e.g. here) which is quickly leading to WP:EW and WP:3RR problems. I've tried to encourage Saqiwa to follow WP:DR and resolve these content disputes through article talk page discussion and thought I was having some success; however, they seem to reverting back to a more brute force approach to try and force their edits through once again. I've got no idea why articles Saqiwa has been editing for some time are suddenly attracting attention (I only saw the Teahouse question and then tried to figure out what was going on), but questionable content is not just simply kept because it's been there for awhile; if someone comes along and challenges it, even after years of going unnoticed, then the best way forward is generally to try to sort things out is through article talk page discussion. I think Saqiwa needs to realize this because continuing on as before is not going to be to anyone's benefit. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:08, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • He continues to point to unreliable opinion pieces that don't verify any of his claims. All of this has been pointed out to him here, but he refuses to listen. He has again rewritten and added sources to this draft, but the sources don't verify his claims (he points to a source from 1918 for someone born in 1937). I have actually not found a single statement in his contributions that has turned out to be mentioned in the sources he cites. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support topic ban - I think that there's a real risk with editors who do stuff like this. While it is easy for anti vandalism patrollers and other editors to catch when completely unsourced and false information is added to an article, it is much harder to catch when faked sources are used, especially if the information presented is not outlandish to the naked eye. A patroller would have to step through each source and carefully read it, which could allow a user like this to slip in inaccurate/false information and have it go unchallenged for a long time. 107.77.203.73 (talk) 13:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    As Saqiwa is now edit-warring to insist that someone who died in 1833 is the father of someone born in 1920 because the lineage is apparently supernatural[69], I feel that this section has been archived prematurely, and have consequently restored it. DrKay (talk) 10:02, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Maybe the Fijians has cryogenic sperm banks? EEng 06:48, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • A topic ban is basically going to be, for all intents and purposes, the equivalent of an indefinite block in this case. Saqiwa has been pretty much an WP:SPA editing only Fiji related articles since they created their account, and it seems very unlikely that they will simply switch to another subject matter and stay away from Fiji articles; so, there's no point in a topic ban since my guess is that it would not be effective. The edit warring with multiple editors at Nakorotubu District over a disagreement on what a source says (or doesn't say) and some of the comments being made on the article's talk page seem to indicate a problem that goes beyond one particular article. The constant WP:ASPERSIONs that others have some kind of ulterior motive in challenging their edits is starting to cause things to heat up unnecessarily and is making it harder to try and have any productive discussion. Perhaps an administrator warning or maybe even a short cool-down block might be warranted to give them a chance to try and reflect. If things don't improve after that, then a much stronger response might be warranted. -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:03, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support any sanctions. His block log is clean so I guess we could try a time-limited block. But I doubt there is anything we can do to turn him into an effective contributor. Haukur (talk) 13:05, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:NOTHERE involving Monique Dupree

    A user claiming to be Monique Dupree has been doing nothing but editing the Monique Dupree article and reverting a user's attempt to clean the article of policy violations. Clearly a WP:NOTHERE. Pinging @Hullaballoo Wolfowitz: the user who cleaned the article. ミラP 18:33, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    I would prefer if someone took the time to explain how the site works on the user's talk page. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:59, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @NinjaRobotPirate: I directed the user to the COI guideline but WP:NOTHERE concerns have been raised by the user editing nowhere beside the article the user claims to be the subject of. ミラP 19:12, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Posting templates to someone's talk page isn't really a substitute for talking to them. OK, fine, if nobody else is going to do this, I'll do it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:18, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I've left them a talkpage message explaining they should go to the talkpage .... something Miraclepine should've done many edits ago, IMHO this should be closed as no admin intervention is needed`. –Davey2010Talk 19:20, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Disruptive behaviour from User:TheEdanJT

    This began with an edit war at St Francis Xavier's College, Hamilton, where this user keeps attempting to add dubious and unreferenced information, despite multiple explanations in the edit summaries, on his talk page and on the talk page of the article in questions that he needs a source since the material is contested. I'm only creating this thread, however, as this user has now resulted to name-calling and telling me to kill myself (look up the acronym if you're not familiar with it) since he can't get his way: [70]. I'd appreciated it if that edit was deleted permanently. I think a short term ban is also in order. Damien Linnane (talk)

    Blocked indefinitely. I don't think that qualifies for revision deletion. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:10, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Consistent Original research additions by Deathlibrarian

    First addition of the OR was observed here[71], the edit stated "30 mile safezone on the Turkish border. This is the majority of the areas where the Kurdish population lives," without a citation. I've added a ((cn)) tag [72]. User took it out adding a citation with a new statement [73] "30 mile safe-zone on the Turkish border. 2.2 million Kurds live in the proposed safe zone" I checked the citation and it said 2.2 million people live, Kurdish and not, not in the 30mile area but the entire Rojava area. I feel this was done deliberately. Also, the article Second Battle of Ras al-Ayn (2019) which was created and mostly written by the user has over a dozen missing citations in it, yet even after me adding ((cn)) templates user continued to add incorrect information. I feel the addition of OR will continue without an intervention and I cannot keep checking all of users edits to detect the original research and felt the urge to make a notification here. KasimMejia (talk) 12:42, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    This is content dispute. Please follow WP:Dispute resolution. According to BBC [74], When the Turkish offensive began, the UN said the potentially affected area included SDF-controlled territory that was home to 2.2 million people.... My very best wishes (talk) 14:19, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I know it said, yet the user wrote it as 2.2 million Kurds lived in the 30mile safe zone. Where as the article states 2.2 million people (Kurdish and Arab) lived in the entire SDF held zone (about 6 times the safe zone). The article is full of other failed verifications too and user cannot keep writing unsourced information like this. KasimMejia (talk) 14:35, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment The reason I opened this incident is because user even after being told of adding original research continued to add original research. I believe if I don't notify the administrators about this the user will keep adding original research and I can't stop him with discussion. KasimMejia (talk) 14:57, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Possibly you could have discussed your concerns with them a bit more? I cant see anything on the talkpage of the article except a debate about terminology...You templated them with an OR template on their talkpage 10 minutes before opening this ANI, after tagging it citation needed what..an hour or so before that? You tagged one section of the article with citation needed tags, proposed the article for deletion, then sent it to AFD, all in one day, yesterday. You appear only to have been editing yourself for about a month or so..perhaps slow down a bit before dragging other editors to ANI? Curdle (talk) 17:05, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      HI everyone - as far as I can interpret that article, the 2.2 million refers to the kurds living in the safe zone(ie the "potentially affected area"), not the whole of Rojava. The BBC article says "the UN said the potentially affected area included SDF-controlled territory that was home to 2.2 million people". The population of the whole of Rojava is not 2.2 million, its in fact 3.5 - 4 million. Cheers Deathlibrarian (talk) 20:41, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Topic ban violation from Light show

    No topic ban violation per WP:BANEX. Complaint also withdrawn by filer. --qedk (t 桜 c) 17:54, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Back in August 2017, the user Light show (talk · contribs · count) was indefinitely banned from making edits related to biographies per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive962#WP:IDHT behavior from Light show. He already has been blocked more than once for going against that ban as comments on his talk page show. I've just discovered him doing so again, most recently here. While I realize this took place over a week ago and was reverting vandalism, he evidently doesn't care about imposed restrictions and basically is asking to be blocked. Any objections to blocking him indefinitely given his blatant disregard for the ban? SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 16:20, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    SNUGGUMS, that looks to me like reverting obvious vandalism, which is permitted by BANEX, unless I'm missing something. – bradv🍁 16:27, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes it was a vandalism revert, which admittedly wasn't something I thought of in previous discussions (likely because of his past disruptions on pages). My understanding is that he wasn't allowed to make any edits pertaining to biographies at all per this aside from appealing his ban. If it turns out I had the wrong idea what the restriction entails, then I apologize. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 16:32, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) The user talk edit in your diff seems to be based on a misunderstanding, because WP:BANEX expressly excempts certain edits, including "Reverting obvious vandalism (such as page content being replaced by obscenities) or obvious violations of the policy about biographies of living persons. The key word is "obvious" – that is, cases in which no reasonable person could disagree". BANEX also says that the editor should claim it as an excemption in the edit summary, but doesn't state that the editor must do so... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:52, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Reading through BANEX again, I just noticed the "Unless stated otherwise, article, page, topic, or interaction bans do not apply to the following" bit that leads into "Reverting obvious vandalism" and more, so yeah I simply misunderstood what could and couldn't be done with the ban. Sorry about that. We can now close without any action. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 16:59, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    (EC) Well if it was a community topic ban and I don't see that it can be expanded other than as supported by the community (or a DS topic ban placed) and I don't believe there was even a suggestion to exclude BANEX in any community discussion. I believe what lead up to it was that Lightshow was griping about something relating to biographies in one of the ANs and elsewhere something which is not covered by BANEX and the hope was to get through to them that they needed avoid all biographies and testing the ban was not a good idea. I'm normally a stickler against testing the boundaries but I think this is close enough to obvious vandalism we should let it be. Separately I was wondering how Lightshow came across this since some with such a ban should just ignore any biographies when doing RC patrolling and have removed them an from their watch list. While neither are violations, they could easily lead to them so it is silly for someone serious about the ban not to follow such simple steps. But Lightshow is fairly inactive so most likely they were just checking out the article and noticed the problem. Nil Einne (talk) 17:04, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • No violation per the first bullet of WP:BANEX. He wasn't specifically refuted from the exception when TBANNED, so it's permitted (the phrasing is the usual TBAN phrasing). An extremely strict reading might take the final line in BANEX and require him to actually mention his use of the exception, but as with other limited ban cases that have come up recently, I'm a firm believer in no harm, no foul. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:49, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not seeing a violation here either, They were clearly reverting vandalism which BANEX permits. –Davey2010Talk 16:55, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Page: The Daily Caller (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
    User being reported: Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    An IP editor who identifies himself as Charles Glasser, who is a media lawyer and journalist, posted that he was asked by The Daily Caller "to help sort out some factual inaccuracies and biased material" in their article. This provoked discussion about conflict of interest and I and other editors advised Charles Glasser to follow the procedures outlined at Conflict of interest, to which he agreed. Subsequently Levivich has made a number of comments on the talk which that could be considered personal attacks and legal threats.

    • CharlesGlasserEsq, you wrote "I'm here as a media adviser and ethicist. Nothing more, OK?" No, that's probably not OK. (01:54, 20 October 2019)[75]
    • If he IS acting as an attorney and is failing to disclose it, he could be disbarred under 4.3" is exactly what I'm getting at....What kind of an ethicist plays around with Rule 4.3? (18:08, 20 October 2019)[76]

    I told Levivich that they were "entering the territory of personal attacks as well as legal threats and that their concerns should be taken to COI or ANI,[77] to which they replied, "I don't understand where you see a personal attack or legal threat in anything written here by anybody."[78]

    Could someone please explain to Levivich why their postings are inappropriate and some action could be taken against them if they continue?

    TFD (talk) 19:15, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • Oh for crying out loud. Probably Levivich should skip the disbarment talk (though an attorney needs no shielding from being chilled by that — assuming he’s doing nothing wrong) but otherwise this is a lot of fuss about nothing. EEng 19:30, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      I think Levivich's behavior on that page is hostile and not helpful, and the kind of thing which gives Wikipedia a bad name. Paul August ☎ 19:35, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I still don’t understand how the quoted sections constitute personal attacks or legal threats. I quoted another editor’s mention of disbarment, and agreed with it, not as a legal threat, but as a reason why an attorney wouldn’t be coy about their relationship with a client. I have no intention of continuing with that thread, beyond my pings to two attorney admins to get second and third opinions. – Levivich 19:58, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      This is not appropriate at all. You interrogated a fellow editor about their motives for contributing to Wikipedia, while threatening them with their own professional code of conduct. And when Glasser complained that this was hostile, you didn't stop – you continued the line of questioning and brought up disbarrment. What part of this could possibly be considered okay? – bradv🍁 20:22, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      I didn’t bring it up, that was another editor. I still don’t read that editor’s comment or my own as threatening anyone with anything, but I’ve stricken it per Barkeep’s comment below. – Levivich 20:32, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      (edit conflict) I think it's important Levivich to think about why WP:NLT exists. It exists because it inhibits free editing, in this case Glasser's right to request edits, it creates bad feelings and lack of trust, which given our current location I would suggest has occurred, and because it might damage the person making the threat's reputation. As I'm sure you don't want that last one I would encourage you to consider striking the parts that refer to Section 4.3 of the New York State code of Professional Conduct and to refer to the answer that Glasser has given on Talk:Daily Caller, WP:AN, and User talk:CharlesGlasserEsq about his role. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:24, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      Ok, stricken. – Levivich 20:32, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just a note that CharlesGlasserEsq says they were the IP, and we have confirmation that CharlesGlasserEsq is indeed Charles Glasser and so no need to talk around the fact that the IP is Glasser. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:17, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Timeline:
    I can't see how CharlesGlasser's experience at Wikipedia so far has been at all positive, and Levivich has broken several policies in their interactions with them. Simply striking the offending comments is not sufficient here — this is borderline harassment and it needs to be addressed. – bradv🍁 20:42, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Disagree that anything Levivich has said constitutes a legal threat - my read is that it's just been discussion on appropriateness of CharlesGlasserEsq's actions so far. I would only consider it to cross the NLT line if he directly called it a violation and/or threatened to take it to the Bar Association. I concur that Levivich's behavior has been on the hostile side, maybe not to the point of a PA, but it does need to be toned down. With that all said, I've kept a bit of a watch on this discussion, and I think Levivich's concerns are reasonable. The situation is just a little too ambiguous for me, CGEsq's statements have read to me more as saying "just because I'm a lawyer doesn't mean I'm acting as counsel" rather than "I am not acting as counsel," if that makes sense. (Edited: clarify some parts, striking comment about bar rules, I wasn't aware that the two pinged editors were attorneys, that's getting too close to the line for me) creffett (talk) 20:50, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • How is it not a legal threat? I'm sorry, but pointing out that if User X is an attorney doing Y they could be disbarred is a pretty clear statement that "I think User X is an attorney doing Y, and should be disbarred" (and by implication "I think User X is an attorney doing Y, and if I find proof I will have them disbarred"). Implying that a professional attorney needs no shielding from a chilling effect and therefore NLT should be relaxed in such cases, or that someone who is doing nothing wrong has no reason to be intimidated by such threats and therefore the only people who are intimidated are doing something wrong and "deserve it", is a pretty blatant violation of both the spirit and the letter of our NLT policy. Levivich's evasiveness regarding the issue (claiming that hequoted another editor’s mention of disbarment, and agreed with it) is completely out of line: Buffs didn't say the same think Levivich did. Given this, I think it would be appropriate if Levivich were given one chance to acknowledge that what he did was a policy violation, and if he fails to do so he should be blocked. (Small disclosure: I stopped editing for most of 2014 because of an explicit legal threat in an email from a now thankfully sitebanned editor, who had been using cutesy quasi-LT language on-wiki for several weeks and not blocked for it. I have had a very low tolerance for NLT violations, including "borderline" ones that in my experience are usually just the polite public "preludes" to serious threats and stalking, ever since.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:44, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    71.244.246.185 et al on Autodesk Maya

    Page protected and 71.244.246.185 blocked by ST47. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:12, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hello I was patrolling the wiki and I noticed what (initially) appeared to be an edit war. However the anon 94.1.34.5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was removing what appeared to be unsourced material while another anon 71.244.246.185 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) kept reverting 94's edits. At first I thought I'd report one (or both) to the edit warring notice board however I then noticed that prior to the edits 71.244.246.185 was also being disruptive on the sandbox (which was reverted by two logged in users). Could someone take a look at this and deal with it? Sakura CarteletTalk 19:37, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank you for reporting this. I will accept a block if I'm given one. But I see they've yet again reverted my revert without explanation. If I revert again, I will definitely have violated the 3-revert rule at this point, so I don't think I should. But please tell me they're in the wrong here. That material I removed was added by blocked user 45.20.151.16 and it was unsourced. It shouldn't be included right? And despite the fact I clearly stated that in my edit summaries, 71.244.246.185 didn't listen at all and kept repeating "reverting vandalism". --94.1.34.5 (talk) 19:48, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    This IP was not assuming good faith. This user was also cussing me out within the edit summary. 71.244.246.185 (talk) 19:55, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not assuming good faith? You're wrong yet again. I'm just removing unsourced material because, you know, material shouldn't be added to Wikipedia without a source. Furthermore, you're not even acting in good faith by continuing to add this unsourced content and ignoring me by never explaining why it should be included. That's also why I "cussed" you as you say (even though I actually used no cuss words) because you're being really annoying. Answer my question already. Why should this material that is unsourced and was added by a blocked user be included? --94.1.34.5 (talk) 20:02, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I am sorry, but I am not going to respond to you anymore. We will let the admins make a final call here. You clearly have not read the rules of this site WP:faith 71.244.246.185 (talk) 20:04, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    And you clearly haven't read the rules on Wikipedia:Citing sources. And I actually have read the rules on Wikipedia:Assume good faith, but the thing is you're clearly not acting in good faith (I already explained why), and that's why I'm not assuming good faith. And your response here clearly shows you know I'm right because you cannot answer my question. --94.1.34.5 (talk) 20:12, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    You removed the sources and then you act like they weren’t there. WP:game you’re gaming the system now. What going to happen is your going to get yourself blocked from this site. I may do the same. But I can get a new IP within 30 seconds, but I don’t know about you. So keep it up. Your just digging the hole deeper. 71.244.246.185 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Where's the sources that I removed???? Here's my edit. There are no sources in there that I deleted! I removed three movies that were added by the blocked user to the already existing list of movies that aren't included in the provided source, and four games also added by the blocked user with no sources whatsoever. Plus Softimage 3D which I really don't see necessary as there's already a link to the successor Autodesk Softimage. I removed absolutely zero sources. You must be trolling here. And nice going admitting you'll get a new IP if you're blocked, because then they'll just block your new one for block evasion. The only one digging their hole deeper is you. --94.1.34.5 (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    You removed the source. Note to admins look at his first edit. He removed the source and tried to act like there was t one there.71.244.246.185 (talk) 20:30, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Jesus Christ, I don't know what to say anymore. I already linked to my edit (which is my first edit to Autodesk Maya), THERE IS NO REMOVED SOURCE IN THERE!!! I really hope the admins turn up soon because I'm hitting my head against a brick wall with you. --94.1.34.5 (talk) 20:35, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Then stop responding to me and wait for them. This is just adding to the case. Your behavior is out of control here. You need a WP:cool 71.244.246.185 (talk) 20:38, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll stop responding as soon as you stop giving false information! I'm not gonna sit by and be accused of being a vandal when I'm not one and am just doing the right thing. Also, I'm not sure if you noticed, but Sakura Cartelet only reported you. And that's because you're the one who's in the wrong. --94.1.34.5 (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess you don’t know how to read both our names are there. You are al over the place now. Admins please take not that this user is now going off topic. 71.244.246.185 (talk) 20:48, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    YOU'RE clearly the one who can't read. The title of this section is "71.244.246.185 et al on Autodesk Maya". That IP is yours. Then they said "However the anon 94.1.34.5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was removing what appeared to be unsourced material while another anon 71.244.246.185 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) kept reverting 94's edits." and then "At first I thought I'd report one (or both) to the edit warring notice board however I then noticed that prior to the edits 71.244.246.185 was also being disruptive on the sandbox". The fact my IP is also in their message is irrelevant, it couldn't be more obvious that they're only reporting you. This is just absolutely ridiculous, you shouldn't be on Wikipedia. --94.1.34.5 (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    94.1.34.5, don't call people idiots anymore. Page protected and 71.244.246.185 blocked for block evasion. ST47 (talk) 21:32, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm so sorry, I was out of hand there. But thank you for solving this situation. --94.1.34.5 (talk) 21:35, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The Neoplan Rider Studios

    Indeffed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:08, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The Neoplan Rider Studios (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to have a WP:CIR/WP:NOTHERE issue. Their edits are largely massive additions of uncited fancruft that is far beyond the scope of an encyclopedia. They make the same edits after multiple reversions; user talk page messages have been ignored. Almost all their edits use the same edit summary, which does not accurately describe their edits, despite a specific warning to that effect. Many edits appear to be copied from this website, which does not have a compatible license - again, despite warnings. Ultimately, none of their contributions are actually helpful or useful. Note: I have previously blocked this user on Commons because of repeated copyvio uploads. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 20:17, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Indeffed for multiple reasons. See block notice. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:38, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Eyes on WP:AIV please

    Handled by El C. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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    Could we have eyes on WP:AIV please, and especially quickly block vandal editor, User:85.255.233.48. as they and I are have spent the last 20 minutes reverting one another's edits at Gary Lineker's Superstar Soccer. Thanks, Nick Moyes (talk) 22:06, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

     Done Now resolved by El C. Thanks, Nick Moyes (talk) 22:11, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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    Odd CU posting?

    Handled by zzuuzz. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:06, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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    Someone should likely check into this if it hasn’t been already handled. Gleeanon409 (talk) 22:23, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

     Done. One of those pesky LTAs. Nothing more to see here. -- zzuuzz (talk) 22:47, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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    Karldmartini

    Based upon the clear consensus at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Karldmartini, I believe that Karldmartini (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) should be topic banned from adding product images that he has created to any Wikipedia article, but at the same time allowed to suggest on article talk pages that the images be added. I can repeat what was said at COIN here if required, but I think it is easier to simply read it there. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:55, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    TurokSwe is continuing on with the same behaviour on Alien, Predator and AvP pages

    The TurokSwe (talk · contribs) has been continuing his contested behaviour on Alien vs Predator related pages. This is the third time he has been taken to ANI, the first time in the beginning of this year it was decided he would be indefinetly blocked if they edit warred again, which they did, the second time it was decided he would be topic banned for a couple of months. Now that that topic ban is over, he has started again to do as he used to. For one he has already edit warred on Template:Alien (franchise) until I just gave up, then he created the page Timeline of the Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator universe, which was put up for AFD for being fancruft, non-notable, reliant on primary sources and filled with copyright violations, it was speedy deleted for the copyright problem, after which he created it again, just much shorter this time. During this AFD he display the exact same problems which got him topic banned before, like stonewalling and refusing to understand what others are talking about. During one especially egregious moment he stated that he doesn't even know why exactly he was topic banned, this leads me to belive that he will not be able to better himself and should be indefinetly topic banned.★Trekker (talk) 03:03, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Please explain what exactly I have done that you have an issue with. The edits you're referring to on the Alien template page were being discussed and you never responded, that's not my fault. The Timeline of the Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator universe article was recreated without the apparent copyrighted material and I don't see what the problem is supposed to be. You've been consistently using ad hominem arguments against me where you've been reminding me of my previous issues from earlier this year and trash talked me while refusing to take part in a civilized and reasonable discussion on either of the two pages in question. Noting that maybe the reason I'm not fully aware of why exactly I was topic banned in the first place is because (1) the original reasoning was unclear and confusing and perceived as unreasonable and (2) I can't accurately recall the events from that time. - TurokSwe (talk) 03:18, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Excusing your conduct on the basis of you not understanding is getting very old, very quickly. Just as soon as your topic ban expired, you snapped back into it and started reverting everything back to how it was before your ban, to include: "The film series was crossed-over with the Predator films with the releases of Alien vs. Predator (2004) and its sequel Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (2007). The Alien vs. Predator franchise serves as a sequel to the Predator series and as a prequel to the Alien series", regardless of what said page may entail. No reliable sources have supported your fan theory. The timeline page was and continues to be a mess of incongruity, fancruft and original research that incorrectly merges three continuities that ignore and contradict one another-- you recreated that before the AfD could even be closed. It's not ad hominen of ★Trekker to bring up that you're doing exactly what got you topic banned earlier this year, as you're absolutely continuing it - even if you phrase it like those days are long behind you. Just like immediately editing the pages back to present your perspective that Alien, Predator and AvP are synonymous, immediately recreating a page subject to an AfD showed a lack of faith in your fellow editors. DÅRTHBØTTØ (T•C) 04:06, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't help if I fail to understand what I've supposedly done wrong (if indeed I've actually done anything wrong at all). I don't know what you mean when you say that I started to revert "everything" back to how it was before I was blocked and that comes across as brutally incorrect and I can't remember having reverted anything. I've only been concerned about fixing and improving these articles. I also don't know where your quote is taken from or what is supposed to be the problem with it. What "fan theory" are you even referring to? I haven't proposed any fan theories. You keep making the claim that the timeline page supposedly consists of three different timelines and is filled with considerable contradictions and yet you refuse to support these claims with any evidence or explanation, whereas the evidence for a single shared timeline are abundant and evident to anyone and reliable sources have been provided in the article but are continually overlooked or downplayed. I don't understand why AfD had to be closed before recreating the page and I have not been made aware of any such rule, nor do I understand how this supposedly demonstrated "a lack of faith" in my fellow editors or what that is even supposed to mean. Trekker indeed makes herself guilty of ad hominem arguments when she resorts to insisting that I'm the problem and there's always something wrong with me (without explanation) instead of discussing the topic at hand in a civilized and reasonable manner. The perspective that Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator are interconnected franchises which for all intents and purposes takes place in the same fictional universe is but a simple objective observation and an unavoidable logical deduction judging from all the available media and perspectives of Fox representatives, but again, I'm realizing there seems to be an evident anti-AVP-bias in operation here (which tends to be a big issue for some fans who hold a strange preference towards separated universes). - TurokSwe (talk) 05:35, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    During all of these continued issues with you, dozens of other editors have already explained over and over and over what it is that you're doing wrong. You're pretty much demanding that we explain it in a way that you agree with, which is beyond impossible because you will never accept or even consider the possibility that you have done anything wrong, so by default you will never be happy with a single reply we make, so all your comments are pretty much a waste of time and space for everyone involved. No one could possible reply to you in a way that you would accept, you'd just keep on insising that all the editors and admins who have agreed that you are at fault are wrong, which is a very Wikipedia:NOTHERE move.★Trekker (talk) 05:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I've only noticed about one or two individuals voicing complaints about me yet none have been able to adequately and clearly communicate what the problem is actually supposed to be. You can keep insisting and implying that I'm "just wrong" but as long as you refuse to properly explain why I'm wrong and what the problem actually is you will leave me none the wiser, and this I would consider a great disrespect, and I sure wouldn't think of treating you that way. I don't see why you would opt for such a denigrating and antagonistic approach when you could just have a civilized and reasonable discussion and contribute to a more positive atmosphere and help build people up along with their work. I am more than willing to admit fault, given that I understand what I've supposedly done wrong, and I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the behavior displayed towards me here. It seems to me that Wikipedia:NOTHERE (and I'm not sure what I've supposedly made myself guilty of in regards to this) is much more applicable to what you're doing in this instance, certainly fitting the label of being disruptive in the sense that you're pursuing me and constantly acting towards me based on an antagonistic image you must have of me in your mind, and that attitude can't be very healthy for anybody (both you and me included). - TurokSwe (talk) 06:48, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    "I've only noticed about one or two individuals voicing complaints about me yet none have been able to adequately and clearly communicate what the problem is actually supposed to be." Are you for real? Do you think you ended up being topic banned for fun?★Trekker (talk) 07:00, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't remember how many people were involved in the ANI earlier this year nor what their stance was or how it all transpired, and I was here referring to the current ANI and the current state of things. I would appreciate it if you would drop the attitude, as I'm sure anybody else would appreciate as well, as it doesn't help anyone here at all. - TurokSwe (talk) 07:04, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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