Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents: Difference between revisions
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== Malleus Fatuorum - Civility issue == |
== Malleus Fatuorum - Civility issue == |
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{{discussion top|Today's lesson: if you don't want an editor to blow up at you, don't go onto his talk page and call him a dick. [[User:28bytes|28bytes]] ([[User talk:28bytes|talk]]) 02:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)}} |
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I hate to bring anybody here because this really isn't my thing, I'd rather be editing than report an incident about someone but something really should be done of Malleus, perhaps a suggestion to take a break from Wikipedia? |
I hate to bring anybody here because this really isn't my thing, I'd rather be editing than report an incident about someone but something really should be done of Malleus, perhaps a suggestion to take a break from Wikipedia? |
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*Nothing constructive will come from this thread. Cheesy Dude, you probably have the best of intentions, but I would recommend withdrawing this. Best, [[User:Jenks24|Jenks24]] ([[User talk:Jenks24|talk]]) 02:17, 30 July 2011 (UTC) |
*Nothing constructive will come from this thread. Cheesy Dude, you probably have the best of intentions, but I would recommend withdrawing this. Best, [[User:Jenks24|Jenks24]] ([[User talk:Jenks24|talk]]) 02:17, 30 July 2011 (UTC) |
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{{discussion bottom}} |
Revision as of 02:20, 30 July 2011
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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Please look
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- This is getting out of hand; it should be clear at this stage that no admin action is likely to be taken and this is not the place to clutter up with content dispute. Conduct for the most part seems fine for those being complained about here. For the "opposition" - there seems to be a tenditious/POV/editwarring/civility problem with some of the editors needing to be addressed, however without specifics there is no much admin action to be taken. In terms of the specific content here... per WP:NOTCENSORED, if Shudra offends modern sensibilities then that is no reason to scrub reference of it from the histories, we do not rewrite history. You will note, for example, African American discusses the moniker "negro" in several places, and even notes it in the lead as a historical name for that group of people. --Errant (chat!) 09:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
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Allegations of misconduct on Kurmi (an Indian caste)User:Sitush has broken the 3RR [1][2][3][4]. But I have an admin warning me about edit warring on my talk page User talk:MangoWong. The admin who warned me has also reverted my edit,[5] which was to put a cn tag in the infobox on a claim which has been disputed for long. I do not see why a cn tag is not needed in an infobox(as claimed by the admin who reverted me and warned me), and why the admin would see a necessity to revert a cn tag. Could I request some fresh eyes here. Please also take a look at talk:Kurmi#Semi-protected.-MangoWong (talk) 16:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Outside comment. I don't see any 3RR violation in the article history; if there are 4 reverts, if I'm reading the article history right, they aren't within 24 hours. And I don't see removing edits that are against an expressed talk page consensus as, in most cases, edit warring. But I don't agree that 3RR wouldn't apply "as they are four different edits he has reverted." The 3RR policy says pretty clearly: whether involving the same or different material each time [it] counts as a revert. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:26, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I have notified user:Sitush at his talk page that I have reported him. He is confident that my report will fail. User talk:Sitush. I have also notified the admin who placed a warning on my talkpage and who also reverted my cn tag.-MangoWong (talk) 17:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi Atama. Thanks for your time and for clarifying my mistake to me. I agree that your interpretation of this being a non vio of 3RR is correct. I apologize to Sitush and Boing! said Zebedee for my misinterpretation of events/timestamps in this regard. However, I have one more important issue here. Do you think it is proper for Boing! said Zebedee to give no warning to Sitush while he performs three reverts within a 24 hour period. But places a warning on my talk page as soon as I make one revert (putting up a cn tag) and also makes me a revert warrior and also goes on to call me a "caste warrior" and what not, and expects me to provide sources for some abstract material which I have never desired to put up. He also claims that sourcing is unnecessary in the lead and infobox and has also reverted my edit even when it was explained in the edit summary and was only a (citation needed) tag. And is also now claiming on my talk page that I should discuss things before making edits. And has generally tried to poison the well against me without showing any wrongdoing on my part. Besides this mitake in reading timestamps, could he show how my edits are wrong (for the tirade which he has put up against me). He is also offering to support me if I discuss things first. Why should he participate in ed discussions? Why should I want his support in these discussions? Is he not behaving in an undue manner and taking an undue interest in content issues and is he not giving some appearance of showing partiality? I have also tried to explain some of the issues with him on the article talk page talk:Kurmi#Semi-protected. I would be grateful if you could take a look at that thread....I would ialso be grateful if you may keep a general eye on Hindu caste articles. I desperately feel they are in need of fresh eyes. Regards.-MangoWong (talk) 21:38, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding self-righteous, those of us involved in caste cleanup are seeing about 95% completely WP-inappropriate editing opposing us, and about 5% opposition which is both evidently well-meaning and following WP procedure. Setting aside specifics of individual content disputes, I tend to feel like I'm working hard to give a full story and I'm against human waves of (generally inexperienced and unwilling to learn) editors who are hellbent-for-leather to erase anything "negative" from an article, particularly the term Shudra. In the entire six months or so I've been covering that specific angle, at not a single point has an ANI, POV, or WPINDIA consensus come back to say "stop doing what you're doing" or even "modify what you're doing". Instead all we've gotten is neutral admins saying "keep up the good work." Behaviour-wise, we've had a few "don't get tetchy" or "don't fall into a revert war", but nobody outside the argument has ever told us "stop writing Shudra, stop questioning Kshatriya claims." Imagine that happening for 20 articles in a row, and every single time seeing the exact same arguments, ad hominem "you don't understand India!!!", veiled legal threats, and every single time an abject refusal to actually deal with sources that actually say Shudra. I'm not being cute here, it's pretty much the exact same argument in each article, but with different people. At this point, either I and Sitush and the others are due for a massive admin action to target out blatant malfeasance all over India topics... or we're actually doing the right thing in the face of all kinds of emotional opposition. Again, I haven't seen a single editor who didn't appear to be emotionally involved take issue with these trends in caste article cleanups, so as far as I'm concerned we're on the right track. That's exactly why I'm glad whenever an ANI comes up, because aside from extremely small procedural slips from time to time, we are genuinely working hard to ensure caste articles are not used for caste glorification, or to whitewash the not-so-pretty side of history. MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:54, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Sitush has not said that Indians should not edit India articles; I said that people who cannot edit a topic close to them but are overall well-intentioned, like some editors we've encountered in these caste articles, should be required to edit topics emotionally unconnected to them until they learn neutrality. I also said that it would be a very positive development if more non-Indians (like myself and Sitush) would work on India articles so that the "Fooian caste" article would not be 90% Fooians, 7% their enemy Gooians, and a few bewildered foreigners like me attempting to apply WP policies to the chaos. You fixate on gBooks: what of it? That's a place to find a lot of books in a searchable format. How on Earth does using gBooks negatively impact my credibility? Should I instead be pulling 19th century Gujarati history off the top of my head? You say There are other policies too besides the ones you name, which have a crucial bearing on deciding article content; well, let's not be coy, explain to us which policies say "even if the Kurmi were Shudra, you shouldn't say it because it's not a nice word." I'd further argue that any visceral distaste for the term that you and others evince appears to be a somewhat modern trait, perhaps a result of the Indian government/society's stringent efforts to erase caste awareness in hopes of smoothing over long-standing grudges? I have had other editors literally tell me that I can't say X or Y about a caste (despite copious footnotes) because riots are caused over lesser arguments. I say, if people can't discuss history without getting folks killed, that means they need to learn more history, not less. MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
(od)(1)Zeedee was wrong about 3R as pointed out by two editors above (2)Zeedee by his own admission was actively editing and then using admin tools in an article which should not be done, he should not use admin tools in an article he is involved. (3)Zeedee is wrong about citations in the lead, Manual of Style (lead section) The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be cited." (4)He uses words like caste warriors, which are highly racist.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:27, 23 July 2011 (UTC) sub-section
I hope no one minds my dropping by. Just a friendly hello and a few observations. I am the one who is being quoted above about Gandhi. I do see a pattern when dealing with India related articles. India is a nation with more than 5000 years of history. It's highly complex and to understand it deep knowledge of topics is required. Just as I won't go on editing topics on rocket science, anyone who writes on this topics does need an understanding of issues at hand. I am sure that everyone involved here is trying to help wiki. There are some limitations due to knowledge and if someone more knowledgeable than us is speaking on topics then it's good to listen with open mind. I am very sad to see Gandhi termed as Racist due to his so called caste related ideas'. What can be far from truth. Gandhi was not assassinated by Godsey, I am seeing it happen now. The same is happening here. People are termed 'caste warriors' and what not. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 06:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Dear Fellow Contributor, A lot what we know today about ancient India is due to great travellers such as Fa Hien, who were foreigners. I have no qualms about anyone. Great historians from different times have written freely about India. India as we know today is due to everyone who came there and mixed in that melting pot. These historians wrote from what they saw and based on their knowledge. Just because pediatrics and gynecology both deal with human body it doesn't mean one can be substituted for the other. I just checked your contributions and I am happy to see your contributions across hundreds of topics. I am slightly concerned as these topics are on so many unrelated fields. I welcome you to visit India. I am sure you may already have. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 06:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC) I say, if people can't discuss history without getting folks killed, that means they need to learn more history, not less. MatthewVanitas, if you want to perform experiments like these to find out whether what you say is correct or not, I would suggest that it is preferable that you invent your own human beings and do your experiments on them only. As for the limitations of GBooks, I think this is not the place to discuss it.-MangoWong (talk) 15:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Dear Sitush, I do sympathize with you. Let me check what this link means. I will get back on this in a few minutes or may be more. The text is in someother language that I don't understand. Let's see what google translate comes up with. Hang on tight soldier. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC) OK. Google isn't of much help. It detects it as something else, but I do get the point raised there. I would have to give some points to the cleverness of that person whose post you pointed above. To test your knowledge about that topic, the person wrote something in Malyalam. You have no idea what those lines mean. But it does bring the same thought that these editors have been trying to communicate. Knowledge of a topic is important. Being neutral is what we must strive for, but it does require an understanding of the topic. I can see the same concers are being raised over and over again. I do hope that you do keep on contributing and try to be more accomodative. As Atama pointed out earlier admin MUST not get into content dispute. If that's what you wanted to point out earlier about the admins involved in this. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 23:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry for the late response; as the talk page was huge, it took me hours to go through. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 09:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Dear MatthewVanitas, I hear you. If by being neutral you mean fair and nonpartisan, then it's OK. It shouldn't be an excuse for ignorance or prejudice. I agree that what stays in wiki should be based on facts.It seems that you and Sitush have got fixated over the term Shudra. I saw the discussion over 'OBC' and 'they are considered Shudra' - OBC is category created by the GOI( Government of India). There is another category Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes(SC/ST). The castes that were so called 'Shudra' are part of SC/ST category. For the list of castes that fall under the SC/ST category, check the GOI site - www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/SC%20Lists.pdf . I don't see Kurmis there. Yes, there is no denial that Casteism existed in India, and still there is caste based politics, but in our zeal to show this ugly face, we must not wrongly categorize castes. This wrong categorization can be the reason you may be facing thousands of people who are opposing you. The castes that fall under OBC list are not Shudra. OBC list is based on certain economic factors, but none being the historic Shudra categorization. I would advice you not to insist on the term Shudra, and to change it to SC/ST. That would be more appropriate. GOI has reservations for SC/ST category, and it has various other programs to uplift SC/ST. Let me know if you want to know more about what India is doing for the SC/ST. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 09:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Disclaimer - I personally have no interest to call anyone Shudra. The term was used to show the difference between SC/ST and OBC.
Explain the term 'historically' and 'experienced'? Let's not get into what American Govt does, we will deal with it when that happens. From your long talk I hardly find thing that adds any value. GOI list includes any caste that was SC/ST. If you don't understand that, then it will help you to do some search on this. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 11:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Misbehavior in a dark part of WPI think I should explain what I see as the problem. The area is very dark. Yesterday, I was trying to put back the tags on the statement which I consider to be a lie. [15] [16] [17] And I get two warnings. [18]. Unfairly IMO. All my attempts to put up the tags have been reverted. [19][20][21][22]. The strong resistence to having anyone else except a particular group of eds edit the article continues. I would not mind my edits being reverted if there be some mistake or some good reason for a revert. But I could see nogood reasons only. What is the difficulty if a cn tag would stay. People seem to be misinterpreting policy, telling me repeatedly that lead need not have cites, infobox need not have cites…. How could they misinterpret wp:V Even when they seem to be well aware of most WP policies. Sitush suddenly started claiming that I had agreed to something on baseless grounds, even when I did not. [23] And even launched a tirade on me for disagreeing with what I did not agree in the first place [24] calling me vexatious, and what not, for no reason at all. All I am trying to do is take down some misleading info. But….people capable of sophisticated levels of thinking are saying and doing illogical things. I couldn’t help getting the feeling that people want to “contain” me and “other”s. [25][26] I feel that the atmosphere around the caste articles is not conducive to editing by “other”s. All this happened while this ANI is on. When it cloeses…. The situation is sure to deteriorate rapidly Either some fresh hands are going to take charge there… or the situation will continue… to remain dark. Some folks just can’t seem to talk to me without mentioning “Block” and “boomerang” (intimidation tactics?) or without giving a warning (attempts to discredit and demoralize?) veiled or otherwise. Here is another example of a warning avalanche, much of it undue IMO[27]. The expected or possible results of warningavalance are explained in the lower parts of this thread. The need for fresh hands becomes even more apparent that these goings on are even penetrating the blogosphere. I would not have introduced this here but Boing! Said Zebedee has been telling me that it has already been here. I don’t know whether this is important or not.-MangoWong (talk) 14:14, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I see the same thing: By repeating that the entire world is against me as everyone is engaged in an off-wiki thing. By stating that Indian social issues are an example of extreme POV may look like the same attempt of playing the victim. Sometimes a little knowledge is very dangerous, and gravest injuries are made with best intentions. Who has got so much time to indulge in such things? I hope we are all trying to get involved in an engaging discussion. Your talk above may give an impression of having some sort of anti-india bias. I know that's not what you may have intended. I am happy to help if you need some help on India. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 22:58, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Not true, BsZ : I hope you are not worried if more people are engaging in a healthy discussion. This should be seen as a victory for Wikipedia that it is successful in attracting more users. If something so crucial is being discussed we are bound to attract a lot of interest. I hope you are not overly worried about not being able to prevent users from engaging in a fruitful discussion. Blocking may not work and it may give an indication of some sort of exerting control. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 22:37, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Sodabottle, that's what I have been saying all along. Glorifying their caste? You have already served the verdict, My Lord! I have my full sympathies with you that you think this way. I hope you do see the core issue. Let's consider a hypothetical situation:- Someone does a search in google with 'tamil terrorist' and comes up with hundreds of articles that specify Tamils are terrorists. you will be surprised how many books you will find such references. Let me know if you want a count, google came with actually 14,300 results. Surprised? Anyways, the main point is context and knowledge of the issue are most important. I can find other ingenious searches 'Madurai dirty', 'Kasab is Indian', or anything under the sun that is very dear to someone. I am not sure how you will feel, but I will definitely we feeling very upset about that. The MO here seems simple, the angry guys are blocked as they are too passionate and as such blurt something that goes against any of the WP principles. Anons are blocked along with their IP and that too 'indefinitely'. When some rational people refer to relaible sources, the sources are termed unreliable. People have gone to lenghts to tarnish the image of Great Kings such as Shivaji. Anyone who objects to such a claim is termed POV pusher or a sock farm, and if nothing else can be proven, they are definitely meat proxies. Sometimes the 'ducks quack' or else 'something is definitely wrong, i will get to the bottom of it' . I think we must leave such childish attitude at home. This is wiki, and it needs mature peole. Now how much sane can a person remain in such an environment. I spent the entire weekend to get to the bottom of this and I can clearly see that everything that tells otherwise was discounted as unreliable. Such actions do lead people to think that something is definitely wrong. If by voicing real concerns to right people the entire band of editors from India come in bad light, then I would doubt the point in having forums to raise voice. The year is 2011 and not 19th century, and we all live in free socities. I am very happy to see that you are very passionate about topics, and are equally passionate about things such as Kasab. I hope you understand the core issue these guys are trying to address. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 08:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
That's exactly the thing these guys have been trying to bring forth - why the special treatment for some people. Now, to know who has been running from pillar to post crying wolf. That's no secret. Anyways, your opinion is already clear when you say glorifying their caste. Now how many examples do you want about the complaints these guys have brought forth? About the Kurmi article it is crystal clear the way things are painted. OK tell me the difference between created and traced? Once you answer, I will show something interesting. MW shouldn't have created the title as 'dark side of wiki'. I don't support it. But don't get side tracked by the personal attack angle, let's look at other things he pointed out. They look very valid to me. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 18:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. Misconduct, alleged as you say, was the reason these guys came to ANI. Somehow, I thought that you were very clear that nothing will happen here. I may be assuming things, but why did you happen to feel that way? I am not interested in being labelled 'caste warrior' or plague, etc that's what is holding me back. I hope you and MVanitas will understand. Shivaji was and is a Demi-God in India. What was the reason someone wanted to pull his glorifications. I hope it wasn't due to some google powered search. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 18:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I will talk to both of you, gentlemen, one at a time. Sitush: a) When I specified created and traced, how come Kurmi is the first thing that came to your mind? I haven't even specified that it is related to Kurmi. So, did someone do a mischief there on Kurmi using the term? b) You have mentioned yourself as Cantabrigian? I think you will know the difference between the terms? What is the difference, Sitush? c) General Question for my curiosity: Can I use something similar on my page, not this title? Is there a verification process, or can anyone use such titles on their own Nameisnotimportant (talk) 20:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
MatthewVanitas: Completely agree. The question is still open? I hope the source of such knowledge about Shivaji wasn't cherry picked google powered search. Please, please, tell me. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 01:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC) Sitush: I hope that by your last statement you are trying to prevent MW from asking you to prove something. I know that may not be your intention, but it seems like that. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 01:45, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
They simply don't know how to make a wise choice. How can they be expected to do something that they never learned to do?-MangoWong (talk) 02:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
OK. To appease your ways of right and wrong, these races should accept all that you are saying. To disapprove and to discount the facts that Yadavs brought forth to prove their Kshatriya lineage, someone went to great lengths to tarnish the image of historians such as James Tod. Who would do that? Who would start on a half-witted attempt to distort a great scottish historian? James Tod's fault: James Tod mentions Yadavs as Kshatriya. I would think someone who wants to misrepresent the facts, ignoring any other facts. Section "Reputation" was added, adding citations which don't have any links. Purpose: to show any source that wrote Yadavs as Kshatriyas as unreliable. So much for your sense of right and wrong. Why can't you accept that you just can't se anything else except what you think is right. I can go and remove that section as there are no citations that prove that point. But I will leave it to the gentleman who did it to have the honour. If there is any admin who is looking at this page, I will invite you to look as James Tod. Look at the section 'Reputation'. Talk page gets even more interesting. So much for your quest to bring the truth out. I am doing a lot of research on what all has been done. I will add more here on ya'all quest of 'bringing out' the Indian history. Nameisnotimportant (talk) 06:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
If these are content points, why are these raised here in the first place? Why is this loose talk? Please don't make ANI some kind of personal message board. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 09:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC) @Sitush, why is your behavior completely different at this discussion /Talk:Thomas_the_Apostle#Blatant_anti-Hindu_POV_on_this_page death of Thomas the Apostle? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 09:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC) Dragging this back to behaviour issues: I don't at all feel that we're excluding Kshatriya info from these articles. We're adding Shudra issues that were completely absent, but it's not like we're challenging clearly-cited and contextualised Kshatriya info. In fact, I was the one who fleshed out the huge "varna politics" section in Kurmi which documents their Kshatriya legal claims. Again, I just think these accusations of misbehaviour are misguided, and those opposed are showing no interest in actually evening out K/S coverage, they're just desperate to remove "Shudra". If you want better Kshatriya coverage, get some references and add it. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
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Report of Vandalism
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Palestinian people is constantly vandalised by IP users. -- 7D HMS (talk) 12:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- Probably better to report this at WP:RFPP. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 13:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- Marking as resolved, page was protected by User:Favonian ([edit=autoconfirmed] (expires 13:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)) [move=autoconfirmed] (indefinite)) --Taelus (talk) 13:58, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
GNAA COI, OWNing and votestacking
Hello folks. Disclaimer: I've never been involved in any 'GNAA' debates before, or similar. Anyway, yesterday, I stumbled across the article at Gay Niggers Association of America while reading up on the old Scientology ArbCom case, and noticed it seemed a little - biased. As such, I drive-by-tagged it (apologies), and after the tag was removed, attempted to make a few changes myself. I made one (admittedly incomplete) content edit, trying to swing the article back to a more neutral state. Another user, LiteralKa (talk · contribs), stepped in and re-worded the article to be pro-GNAA again. So, I looked through the edit history and associated contributions, as one does. I noted that LiteralKa almost exclusively edits articles related to GNAA et al., and so I Googled the username. Not at all to my surprise, 'LiteralKa' is 'Director of Public Relations' for the GNAA group. I didn't think that LiteralKa's editing of the article was in the least bit appropriate, so I dropped him a note about COI. LiteralKa and I had a brief talk page discussion, and we left the matter at that. However, I also had a quick look at his contributions, and spotted a few AFDs LiteralKa had been involved in, as well as a history of 'owning' the GNAA and related articles. I'm going to make the following claims, therefore:
- LiteralKa (talk · contribs) is the Director of Public Relations at GNAA.
- Therefore, LiteralKa (talk · contribs) has a conflict of interest with regards to the GNAA and related organisations, and is completely ignoring the COI policy in every respect.
- LiteralKa (talk · contribs) has recently created some particularly pointy AFDs, both of which have the acronym 'GNAA':
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Guilford Native American Association (2nd nomination)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gridless Narrow-Angle Astrometry
- I wanted to close these as 'disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point', but I think it'd be best to let them run. There's also Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica, which LiteralKa has shown an interest in.
- There seem to be a host of SPAs, meatpuppets and potential GNAA members who edit GNAA articles, for example:
In short, then, I'm asking what we can do about this. Ideally, I'd like to get editors with a COI, like LiteralKa, to leave the GNAA article alone so that sensible, uninvolved folk can work on it. Some sort of topic ban? Community-endorsed? The Cavalry (Message me) 22:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ban all forever. Don't forget snaphat (talk · contribs). See also this after I opposed the recreation of the GNAA article in February. Diego talk 22:27, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- That LiteralKa is associated with GNAA is not at all news to anyone who spends time at #wikipedia-en, where LiteralKa is a regular. As far as IRC members go, he has recently ranged from mildly constructive to mildly disruptive, but has previously had a history of being banned from that channel and socking to get around that ban, and spent a few days as the single most disruptive troll that I've seen in IRC space in the time I've spent there, which is nearly a year.
- What does this mean for actual Wikipedia? It means that LiteralKa has proven that he has access to effective proxy services and is more than willing to sock. I would not be surprised to find that those SPIs are his sockpuppets, although it is likely that they are untraceable. At the very least, Murdox is also on IRC from time to time, so the two are either socks or meats. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure the logical extension of that argument is that everyone on Wikipedia is secretly a sockpuppet of one dude with a lot of time and proxies. This is less of a matter of Wikipedia Administration and more of a witchhunt. Murdox (talk) 00:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Diego, you just accused snaphat (talk · contribs) of being a sockpuppet when all he has done is vote against one of your articles. LiteralKa (talk) 04:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The vote is perfectly fine, and I'll leave it clear to you: I did not know of the existence of an article on mixed-breed dogs at the time I created the quiltro article, so I created it, believing it was some kind of "different" race when it is not. Snaphat's vote there is perfectly fine, yours is too; however, it is obvious you both are part of that so-called, racist organization I won't bother to spell. Diego talk 04:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Diego, you're going to have to provide evidence that he is a member of the Gay Nigger Association of America before throwing accusations around. We've been over this before. LiteralKa (talk) 04:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Quite simple, user that edits very, very sparsely from 2005 votes in an AfD shortly after the director of public relations of the troll organization votes, too. Since there are no public records of who the members of the organizations are, I have no more proof than this. Diego talk 05:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Diego, that is the flimsiest argument I have seen from you yet. Why would that have anything to do with the GNAA except for the fact that I happened to vote a little before him? If that's what you see as justification for banning, I sincerely hope that you never get the power to ban here. You should notify someone when you're accusing them on ANI, BTW. You're grasping at straws here, Diego. Give it a rest. LiteralKa (talk) 05:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and because you wouldn't notify him, I did. LiteralKa (talk) 05:29, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not related to GNAA. I didn't know it existed until the accusation. It is actually pretty clear who I am if you google my username. I'm not making an attempt to hide this information. snaphat (talk) 12:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Quite simple, user that edits very, very sparsely from 2005 votes in an AfD shortly after the director of public relations of the troll organization votes, too. Since there are no public records of who the members of the organizations are, I have no more proof than this. Diego talk 05:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Diego, you're going to have to provide evidence that he is a member of the Gay Nigger Association of America before throwing accusations around. We've been over this before. LiteralKa (talk) 04:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The vote is perfectly fine, and I'll leave it clear to you: I did not know of the existence of an article on mixed-breed dogs at the time I created the quiltro article, so I created it, believing it was some kind of "different" race when it is not. Snaphat's vote there is perfectly fine, yours is too; however, it is obvious you both are part of that so-called, racist organization I won't bother to spell. Diego talk 04:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ignore conflicts of interest exist everywhere because every single Wikipedia editor is involved with some other organization or interest, and they frequently edit topics of that nature. It's total hypocrisy for you to single out some who may be fans of the GNAA. death metal maniac (talk) 22:51, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- Note above user is User:Prozak. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm tempted to say the AfDs should be procedurally closed. The ones that need deleting can be restarted with a nominator who isn't being obviously pointy. The AfDs weren't started in good faith, we should do the equivalent of order a mistrial. —Tom Morris (talk) 22:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- I would let the AfDs run. If the subjects were obviously notable, then speedy close would be reasonable, but they're not. Also, even if the nominations are pointy, the nomination statements themselves are reasonable in pointing out the deficiencies of the articles.. I don't see the point in policy-wonking this for the sake of it. Obviously if there is a sock issue on the AfD that needs to be sorted, though. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:25, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, the yearly GNAA infestation <yawn>. SOP as follows:
- Congratulate them on another successful op. Then nuke from orbit, salt the earth, close any procedures or related procedures started by GNAA puppets, Checkuser the bad guys, Get steward cover if necessary. --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:56, 25 July 2011 (UTC) it's the only way to be sure!
- Blocks all round, then? The Cavalry (Message me) 23:08, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- They're not here to help build an encyclopedia. They're here for giggles. So yes, blocks all around. Let them get their kicks somewhere else. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:10, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- Get rid of the problem; yes. Diego talk 23:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- They're not here to help build an encyclopedia. They're here for giggles. So yes, blocks all around. Let them get their kicks somewhere else. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:10, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. You're not assuming good faith on *ANY* of these accounts, and this really seems like a campaign against anyone who's commented in an anything-less-than-negative light on a GNAA-related article. I don't feel I've done anything wrong, and while I cannot account for other users, what's mentioned here hardly seems to warrant a permanent ban. If you look at past votes, they are clearly two-sided, and those who "lost" are now just trying to execute a vendetta against those who "won". Many of the accounts that have been listed are legitimate editors who edit on a number of subjects, and have participated in GNAA votes... Light-editing does not make a user a SPA or sockpuppet. nprice (talk) 23:19, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oh! I didn't realize this was a topic ban, and after a discussion on IRC, not everyone who's put in their input seems aware of that either. If we do this, we should at least do it by each "suspected" user account, based on its own merits. You can't just do a blanket-ban on a group of people you've arbitrarily grouped together because of a perceived connection. Each user should have the right to contest any actions done to their account, by their own merits. What's happened here is that a list of editors has been compiled who have legitimate edits, but few enough of them that SPA can be cited the moment they do something pro-GNAA. In the last DrV, there were plenty of "keep deleted" votes from accounts with the same status. If this happens, the moment any sort of block is placed, a certain editor who's pretty vehemently commented in this "incident", and HIS group are going to take advantage of the situation they've orchestrated to get the GNAA article VfD'd again. nprice (talk) 23:41, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- One more comment - if you block any supposedly pro-GNAA people from editing, as well as their detractors, who does that *LEAVE* to actually edit the article? Admittedly, it is very polarizing, and this would just arbitrarily unbalance things one way or another. nprice (talk) 23:50, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- It leaves neutral editors to edit it, who edit for a hobby, rather than for a cause. Some people are interested in organisations like this without being a part of them - I studied sociology at university, as well as computer science, so I actually find it rather enthralling. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- It also leaves the multitude of editors who are forever biased against GNAA as a result of the many deletion debates. You know this. LiteralKa (talk) 00:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- It leaves neutral editors to edit it, who edit for a hobby, rather than for a cause. Some people are interested in organisations like this without being a part of them - I studied sociology at university, as well as computer science, so I actually find it rather enthralling. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Comment "[literalka] is completely ignoring the COI policy in every respect." I'd like to see evidence of this instead of accusations being thrown around. I have attempted to follow the COI guideline to the best of my ability. "LiteralKa (talk · contribs), stepped in and re-worded the article to be pro-GNAA again" I'd also like to see evidence of how I made it pro GNAA. As for trollhistorian (talk · contribs), he hasn't edited since 2007, calling into question the amount of research that Cavalry actually did. LiteralKa (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're the PR man from GNAA. Editing in the interests of public relations is frowned upon. Why don't you follow Wikipedia:Suggestions for COI compliance, for example? Why do you consistently remove the 'COI' tage from the article, rather than waiting for a neutral editor to come along? It's all a bit fishy, if you ask me, and you're damned close to being blocked for being a single-purpose account. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:08, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Single purpose account? I have been editing for years across a wide variety of subjects. I find such accusations baseless, offensive, and childish. Coming from an arbitrator, no less. I removed the COI tag because no specific issue was taken with the article, aside from "LiteralKa edited it" (see WP:COI#Non-controversial_edits (mainly no. 6).) Additionally, you're going to have to prove that I'm "editing in the interests of public relations," instead of just claiming that I am. I have worked to provide reliable, verifiable sources for the article. LiteralKa (talk) 00:15, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're the PR man from GNAA. Editing in the interests of public relations is frowned upon. Why don't you follow Wikipedia:Suggestions for COI compliance, for example? Why do you consistently remove the 'COI' tage from the article, rather than waiting for a neutral editor to come along? It's all a bit fishy, if you ask me, and you're damned close to being blocked for being a single-purpose account. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:08, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- IDGI Firstly, the implication that TheCavalry has "never been involved in any 'GNAA' debates before, or similar." is a pretty false statement considering that's he's commented upon it multiple times in the IRC. Secondly, I'd like to further understand why I'm not a "sensible" editor considering that outside of attempting to reboot the GNAA article in my own userspace (which earned me a quickly overturned block) I've never made anything approaching unsensible edits on-wiki. That said, I don't have a complete and comprehensive understanding of wikipedia's version of due process and most of my knowledge of wikipedia's various bureaucratic branches comes from being referred to them continually. I understand ignorantia juris non excusat, but I'd appreciate it if you made it a little clearer what I'm being accused of. TIA. Murdox (talk) 00:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- NB: If anyone feels I closed this inappropriately, feel free to open it again. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I would rather see this section closed by an administrator, considering the seriousness of the charges you brought. Closing because there is "too much drama here" is bogus; what did you expect? You can't just open up a huge can of worms and then just say "Nevermind!" FYI, I am a totally disinterested party who has never edited or even read the article in question and has never had any dealings whatsoever with any of the parties involved, nor do I particulary care about the outcome of this incident, except that it be resolved properly and competently. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I don't have any problem with someone who originally brought an issue to ANI deciding to withdraw it, whether they're an admin or not. Sometimes one realizes that a particular issue is generating a great deal of noise, and not enough signal to bother with. I'll leave it as an exercise for the student to determine if that's the case here, but in the meantime, if Cavalry wants to close out what he opened, far be it from me to stand in his way. (Sidenote, I'm using the pronoun "he" in the non-gender-specific manner.) --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 01:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Cavalry is an admin. LiteralKa (talk) 02:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am an administrator, and have been since 2007, so I thought it perfectly acceptable to close it myself - but I digress. I think we all dislike it when this becomes a drama-board, and the last thing I want to invoke is drama. The Cavalry (Message me) 12:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I would rather see this section closed by an administrator, considering the seriousness of the charges you brought. Closing because there is "too much drama here" is bogus; what did you expect? You can't just open up a huge can of worms and then just say "Nevermind!" FYI, I am a totally disinterested party who has never edited or even read the article in question and has never had any dealings whatsoever with any of the parties involved, nor do I particulary care about the outcome of this incident, except that it be resolved properly and competently. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm strongly tempted to close the AfDs summarily, as their intent is intentionally disruptive. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Is it really disruptive to put articles that were created with the clear intention of "diluting" the GNAA disambig page up for deletion? I figured I would leave it up to the community to decide if they were notable for this very reason. LiteralKa (talk) 02:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'd have to say that yours is the WP:BURDEN to demonstrate "dilution". The other articles, whether their subjects are notable or not (and that's still arguable...elsewhere), all bear legitimately-named organizations which just happen to bear the same initials. I'm not an attorney, but this strikes me as a prime example of scenes á faire. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 02:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Created by the same editor during one of many GNAA arguments, one of which was mentioned in an academic paper once and another had nothing but passing mentions in sources. LiteralKa (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I have to admit, I took a quick look at the histories of these articles and was going to snappishly post a response to LiteralKa along the lines of "these articles have nothing to do with the 'GNAA' controversy; they were created in 2005." But I looked a little deeper (after noticing that both articles on completely unrelated topics were created around the same time by the same user), and I now see the point LiteralKa is making. (Geez, I hadn't realized that GNAA has been a topic of discussion here since 2005!) I still think it would be better if these AfDs hadn't been created or had been created by someone else, but for what it is worth, I now see a somewhat greater substance to them than I might have initially. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Could we please start assuming good faith on my GNAA-related edits now instead of just assuming the worst? I try to follow the rules as closely as possible when editing related pages. Also, I created {{GNAA History}} so that people could read up on the GNAA-Wikipedia relationship in as much detail as possible. LiteralKa (talk) 02:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've tried to be fair to you. In fairness to me and others, you didn't make this point anywhere that I've noticed either in the AfDs or in this discussion, though it is one strongly in your favor insofar as the issue of intent is concerned. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- That was because the point was made already by someone else. (In hindsight, though, I probably should have been clearer in the nominations for each.) LiteralKa (talk) 02:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I hate to say it, but I have a hard time assuming good faith based on the comments contained in the very diff you link above. And I'm still going to have to hold by my earlier comment: because the articles at AfD appear to name valid, albeit arguably notable, organizations or entities that just happen to bear the same initials as yours, you will have the WP:BURDEN of showing the articles were created specifically for (to use a marketing term) brand dilution. And having said that, I'll now step back and watch. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- As LiteralKa has noted, those claims are also my own, so the WP:BURDEN falls upon my shoulders as well. The fact that many find the GNAA distasteful isn't a secret, and years ago, those who found it distasteful sought to push the Gay Nigger Association of America to the back of the
busdisambiguation page. One of these users was Astronautics (formerly known as Silsor). On December 7, 2004, Astronautics expanded the disambiguation page with three entries that didn't have articles at the time. On April 2, 2005, an anon removed the articleless entries from the page, and Astronautics's immediate reaction was to create articles on the Guilford Native American Association and the Gridless Narrow-Angle Astrometry in order to ensure that entries couldn't be removed from the page ever again. Astronautics then decided to belittle the Gay Nigger Association of America by having it listed last: [30]. Astronautics even tried to push GNAA as an acronym for the Great North Air Ambulance Service. Another user involved in similar activities was Brian0918. Brian0918 supported the idea of listing disambiguation page's entries by their perceived significance. When the tables turned on him, he pointedly added an articleless entry listed alphabetically over Gay Nigger and made an equally pointy comment: "alright, then, alphabetical order is fine." When Sam Hocevar removed those articleless entries, Brian0918 took a page out of Astronautics's book and created a Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica article. Those articles weren't created out of good faith; they were created solely to belittle the GNAA on a disambiguation page. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 04:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- As LiteralKa has noted, those claims are also my own, so the WP:BURDEN falls upon my shoulders as well. The fact that many find the GNAA distasteful isn't a secret, and years ago, those who found it distasteful sought to push the Gay Nigger Association of America to the back of the
- I hate to say it, but I have a hard time assuming good faith based on the comments contained in the very diff you link above. And I'm still going to have to hold by my earlier comment: because the articles at AfD appear to name valid, albeit arguably notable, organizations or entities that just happen to bear the same initials as yours, you will have the WP:BURDEN of showing the articles were created specifically for (to use a marketing term) brand dilution. And having said that, I'll now step back and watch. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- That was because the point was made already by someone else. (In hindsight, though, I probably should have been clearer in the nominations for each.) LiteralKa (talk) 02:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've tried to be fair to you. In fairness to me and others, you didn't make this point anywhere that I've noticed either in the AfDs or in this discussion, though it is one strongly in your favor insofar as the issue of intent is concerned. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Could we please start assuming good faith on my GNAA-related edits now instead of just assuming the worst? I try to follow the rules as closely as possible when editing related pages. Also, I created {{GNAA History}} so that people could read up on the GNAA-Wikipedia relationship in as much detail as possible. LiteralKa (talk) 02:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I have to admit, I took a quick look at the histories of these articles and was going to snappishly post a response to LiteralKa along the lines of "these articles have nothing to do with the 'GNAA' controversy; they were created in 2005." But I looked a little deeper (after noticing that both articles on completely unrelated topics were created around the same time by the same user), and I now see the point LiteralKa is making. (Geez, I hadn't realized that GNAA has been a topic of discussion here since 2005!) I still think it would be better if these AfDs hadn't been created or had been created by someone else, but for what it is worth, I now see a somewhat greater substance to them than I might have initially. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Created by the same editor during one of many GNAA arguments, one of which was mentioned in an academic paper once and another had nothing but passing mentions in sources. LiteralKa (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'd have to say that yours is the WP:BURDEN to demonstrate "dilution". The other articles, whether their subjects are notable or not (and that's still arguable...elsewhere), all bear legitimately-named organizations which just happen to bear the same initials. I'm not an attorney, but this strikes me as a prime example of scenes á faire. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 02:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Considering that the most flattering description I've recently heard of Wikipedia is "the place people go to win bar bets", and that Wikipedia itself won't allow Wikipedia articles to be used as reliable sources, I'm fairly well convinced that no one is going to take ANY article found on Wikipedia as God's Own Truth™, so an argument regarding irreparable harm to ANY of the article topics under consideration here is, in my mind, laughable at best. And now that I've said all that, here's what I see as the acid test for this case. Are the editors in question willing to accept a keep outcome on any or all of the AfDs in question? And what, if any, would the overall effect be on GNAA, other than having to share space on a disambiguation page? Yes, this is a serious question, and I'd appreciate a serious answer. And on a sidenote, I'd like to thank Michaeldsuarez for taking the time to lay out a clear, concise argument supporting his position...even though there are some who won't agree with it, it's a refreshing change from the dramatics I've seen lately on various noticeboards. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 13:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and to address the issue of OWNership, I'm pretty sure that I have abstained from editing the GNAA article as much as I used to once it passed the deletion review (ie. entered mainspace.) Before that, my intention was (and still is) to help develop a genuinely acceptable Wikipedia article. LiteralKa (talk) 02:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- As an experienced editor entirely uninvolved with any disputes about the other GNAA, I think that this tempest-in-a-teapot is exceptionally unfair to the Guilford Native American Association. This is a solid, worthy organization that has existed for decades, and reasonable people may well disagree about its notability by Wikipedia standards. However, the Guilford group has done nothing that justifies its online reputation being dragged into this "inside baseball" dispute on Wikipedia. It is unjust and distasteful. They've had an article here for 5-1/2 years. Consider the impact on uninvolved people who stumble into this debate while looking for information about a group that was founded 25 years before Wikipedia was. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Based on the view stats, I'd reckon that doesn't happen much, if at all. LiteralKa (talk) 06:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- So, if its only three parents of Native American kids with problems, rather than 20, that's OK with you? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:32, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Seeing as how one of them is me, and the other two are related to the page deletion, yes. LiteralKa (talk) 12:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Google reports that there are an average of 36 searches per month for "guilford native american association". Our article shows up at the top of that search. The potential for collateral embarrassment to this group is real.Cullen328 Let's discuss it 15:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The "collateral embarrassment" you mention would be made no worse: its "relationship" to the GNAA would be no more apparent than it already is. LiteralKa (talk) 16:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Would you then agree the converse is also true...the existence of the Guilford Native American Association, and hence its article, causes no "collateral embarrassment" to GNAA? --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 18:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The "collateral embarrassment" you mention would be made no worse: its "relationship" to the GNAA would be no more apparent than it already is. LiteralKa (talk) 16:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Google reports that there are an average of 36 searches per month for "guilford native american association". Our article shows up at the top of that search. The potential for collateral embarrassment to this group is real.Cullen328 Let's discuss it 15:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Seeing as how one of them is me, and the other two are related to the page deletion, yes. LiteralKa (talk) 12:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- So, if its only three parents of Native American kids with problems, rather than 20, that's OK with you? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:32, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Based on the view stats, I'd reckon that doesn't happen much, if at all. LiteralKa (talk) 06:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
- I'd like it to be known that I am not any way related to GNAA. I simply voted once on some article AfD of diegos. Since it is very easy to look up who I am, so there is absolutely no reason why this accusation should have occurred in the first place. What can be done about this? snaphat (talk) 12:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I have to agree here. I don't see that you're a part of GNAA in the same way as LiteralKa, and it's LiteralKa's conduct I have an issue with in any case - everyone else seems tangentially related, and I'm not 'anti-' or 'pro-' GNAA. The only reason I've issued a block so far is that NPrice (talk · contribs) turned out to be a reincarnation of a blocked user. The Cavalry (Message me) 12:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks you! I'm not concerned with what is going on here beyond making sure I don't wrongfully get banned or sanctions against me as I've done nothing wrong. snaphat (talk) 13:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I have to agree here. I don't see that you're a part of GNAA in the same way as LiteralKa, and it's LiteralKa's conduct I have an issue with in any case - everyone else seems tangentially related, and I'm not 'anti-' or 'pro-' GNAA. The only reason I've issued a block so far is that NPrice (talk · contribs) turned out to be a reincarnation of a blocked user. The Cavalry (Message me) 12:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Cavalry, can you please provide diffs of LiteralKa's alleged meddling in the Gay Nigger Association of America article? LiteralKa's revisions after your own revisions appears fine to me, and LiteralKa provide clear edit summaries. Can you please back your "[LiteralKa] stepped in and re-worded the article to be pro-GNAA again" comment? Maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 13:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Its not specific edits, because the edits themselves are individually small and apparently harmless - but they add up to have a cumulative effect. I find it amazing that he's removing COI tags added by neutral editors - and bizarrely citing Wikipedia:COI#Non-controversial_edits as a reason for doing so. Ask yourself this: Why is the Head of PR, and the 'Head of Wikipedia editing' (easily accessible through Google searches, seeing as 'LiteralKa' is the username he uses all over the internet, for everything), for GNAA, editing the article at all? This is a man who wrote - just four months ago - Jimmy "Babyrapist" Wales... convicted sex offenders known on Wikipedia as "Sysops"... forcefully ejaculating into MuZemike's pedophile mouth.... And let's not forget the wonderful quote that The Wikimedia Foundation refused to return our requests for comment. Saying only that "those dumb niggers" do not "deserve a fucking article". The man who wrote this is apparently an editor without a COI? Would we allow this from the Head of PR for any other organisation? The Cavalry (Message me) 14:05, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- That sounds like a COI to me. Given his background, LiteralKa should not be editing the article at all. snaphat (talk) 14:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- When LiteralKa removed that COI tag, there hasn't been any discussion about COI since the previous discussion on COI and neutrality concerns was settled several days earlier. Cavalry didn't make any attempt to re-initiate that discussion, and there wasn't any answer to my call for evidence. Silver_seren also noted the lack of further discussion. There isn't anyone who takes anything say on the GNAA website at face value. It's unlikely that anything said on that website will harm the Wikipedians mentioned. LiteralKa uses the GNAA website in the same way I use Encyclpedia Dramatica: To be funny and entertain visitors. LiteralKa didn't use those press releases to out anyone. Should we ban anyone who mocks Wikipedia on Encyclopedia Dramatica or the Wikipedia Review? Only one thing matters here: How does LiteralKa influence the Gay Nigger Association of America article? LiteralKa's offsite activity doesn't have any effect on that article, so that activity is irrelevant. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 15:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- With the greatest of respect, I disagree, and I do not have to cite specific edits, because the conflict of interest is plainly obvious. Your diffs above are from several weeks before I even came across the article. This isn't about WR, or ED - bringing those sites in is a fallacious argument, and a rather obvious attempt to obfuscate the issue with drama. The only thing that matters here is: should the Head of PR of an organisation be the main editor of the article for that organisation? The Cavalry (Message me) 15:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- What do you mean by, "Your diffs above are from several weeks before I even came across the article"? I'm seeing a revision by you from July 8, 2011. You added the COI tag on July 14, 2011, and that talk page I had mentioned had only ended the day before. As the PR Head, LiteralKa has the best motivation to keep the article neutral and free of crud from those who despise the group. Why don't you point out how LiteralKa made the article less than neutral? Can you? You haven't done so so far. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Really? You're talking about allowing PR reps to be the main editors for articles because you think they're neutral? The Cavalry (Message me) 16:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I have to concur with ChaseMe: this is incredibly peculiar reasoning on MichaelD's part. PR heads, by definition, want to shape coverage of their subject to fit their own agenda, which is unlikely to meet WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE in particular. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- If PR people were truly neutral, we wouldn't have 1/4 the number of UAA reports we get. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I have to concur with ChaseMe: this is incredibly peculiar reasoning on MichaelD's part. PR heads, by definition, want to shape coverage of their subject to fit their own agenda, which is unlikely to meet WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE in particular. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Really? You're talking about allowing PR reps to be the main editors for articles because you think they're neutral? The Cavalry (Message me) 16:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- What do you mean by, "Your diffs above are from several weeks before I even came across the article"? I'm seeing a revision by you from July 8, 2011. You added the COI tag on July 14, 2011, and that talk page I had mentioned had only ended the day before. As the PR Head, LiteralKa has the best motivation to keep the article neutral and free of crud from those who despise the group. Why don't you point out how LiteralKa made the article less than neutral? Can you? You haven't done so so far. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm afraid I have to counter Michaeldsuarez' argument. As the self-styled PR man for GNAA, how can LiteralKa not have a COI when editing the GNAA article? I will stipulate that WP:COI specifically states that a voluntarily-disclosed conflict of interest should not be used as a weapon against the editor. However, WP:COI is also quite clear that an editor should avoid making changes to an article unless it helps the project as a whole, and given both the size and the heat emanating from this discussion, I can't see any help to the project as a whole. In fact, based on what I'm seeing, his editing is damaging not only the GNAA article (due to inherent bias) but several other articles as well, simply because the names of the articles have the unmitigated bad fortune to create acronyms of "GNAA". Add to that the comments from the GNAA Web site quoted above, and to me it adds up to a fairly damning case, very little of which is circumstantial. And before I go any farther, I'm also going to stipulate that I do NOT have a dog in this hunt. I have no association with GNAA (in any of the incarnations under discussion...hells, in at least two cases I couldn't even pass the physical!), I have not edited any of the articles, and I have not participated in any of the AfD discussions. My focus here is to examine the core issue and see if there's any sort of mutually-agreeable solution that won't wind up involving significant admin (or higher) action. Sadly, I fear it may be too late for that last, but that won't stop me from giving it a go. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 16:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- WP:COI - "Adding citations, especially when another editor has requested them." LiteralKa (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The COI template doesn't mention citations, and I can tell you right now that #6 doesn't apply in the case you're talking about. If another editor objects for any reason, then it's a controversial edit, and you shouldn't be making it at all. The Cavalry (Message me) 16:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The way COI works is this way... If an editor has a COI but complies with all policies and guidelines, and other editors do not object to their edits, then we allow their editing of the main space of the article (we even encourage it, really). If, however, the editor is being disruptive (either through conflicts with all other editors or violating policies and guidelines), then that editor can be blocked or banned. If we can verify either through technical or behavioral means that sockpuppetry has been occurring, that seems to me a valid reason to do both in this case. -- Atama頭 18:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've got no prior involvement with this article, but having read through this thread, I'll just add that LiteralKa seems to have a pretty transparent COI regarding this article, and as such should (at the very least) publicly make that clear; and preferably should avoid making any edits to the GNAA article at all. Minor edits are OK but not if they're controversial (and if someone reverts them, that's a clear sign that they are). Robofish (talk) 11:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- This recent edit by LiteralKa is non-neutral and the edit summary does not accurately describe it.[31] Given the history and the ongoing problems, I think that LiteralKa and Murdox, listed as GNAA president,[32] should not be editing the article directly, nor should they be involved in AFDs related to GNAA. It would be sufficient for them to use talk pages to suggest edits. Will Beback talk 20:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- It's one thing to say that something is "non-neutral." It's another to say why. LiteralKa (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm terribly sorry but my ADHD makes it very hard to follow the thread of a huge discussion like this without losing track of the argument. Could someone point out to me specifically which edits on the GNAA article are non-neutral or controversial, and why I need to be blocked from editing the GNAA article? My vague understanding of COI is that it doesn't apply if the edits aren't controversial. Murdox (talk) 20:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- If you're editing an article about a group of which you're the president then you should really become familiar with the relevant guideline. WP:COI. Will Beback talk 20:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Why do you keep avoiding the issue of citing specific edits and saying how they're POV? LiteralKa (talk) 21:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see where I've violated WP:NPOV, WP:NOT, or WP:COPYVIO. In fact, I've taken a somewhat "hands off" approach to editing the GNAA article since it made the move to mainspace but I don't see why this means I should be blocked from making edits to the page I feel are appropriate? By all means, if you could cite specific edits or lines of policy it would help me understand your position more. TIA. Murdox (talk) 21:12, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The edit removed text illustrating the perception of the organization's name as racist, it removed (sourced) information about the group's antagonism toward blogs and Wikipedia, and another mention of the intentionally offensive nature of the organization's name. Either you're being disingenuous about the slant you're trying to put in the article, or unable to recognize it, either of which is a very valid reason to ban you from further involvement in editing the article. -- Atama頭 21:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- The "racism" was discussed later in the article. Same with the antagonism bit. Is there a problem with removing redundant material all of a sudden? LiteralKa (talk) 21:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well that's true. The article does more-or-less cover it anyway. At the very least, it looks like a POV edit on the surface, and the edit summary was pretty vague (explaining that it was removing redundant statements would have been better). So I can see why Will might consider that a biased edit but I suppose it isn't. -- Atama頭 22:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- In hindsight, a better edit summary probably would have helped. LiteralKa (talk) 22:16, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well that's true. The article does more-or-less cover it anyway. At the very least, it looks like a POV edit on the surface, and the edit summary was pretty vague (explaining that it was removing redundant statements would have been better). So I can see why Will might consider that a biased edit but I suppose it isn't. -- Atama頭 22:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- The "racism" was discussed later in the article. Same with the antagonism bit. Is there a problem with removing redundant material all of a sudden? LiteralKa (talk) 21:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- If you're editing an article about a group of which you're the president then you should really become familiar with the relevant guideline. WP:COI. Will Beback talk 20:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm terribly sorry but my ADHD makes it very hard to follow the thread of a huge discussion like this without losing track of the argument. Could someone point out to me specifically which edits on the GNAA article are non-neutral or controversial, and why I need to be blocked from editing the GNAA article? My vague understanding of COI is that it doesn't apply if the edits aren't controversial. Murdox (talk) 20:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- It's one thing to say that something is "non-neutral." It's another to say why. LiteralKa (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- This recent edit by LiteralKa is non-neutral and the edit summary does not accurately describe it.[31] Given the history and the ongoing problems, I think that LiteralKa and Murdox, listed as GNAA president,[32] should not be editing the article directly, nor should they be involved in AFDs related to GNAA. It would be sufficient for them to use talk pages to suggest edits. Will Beback talk 20:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've got no prior involvement with this article, but having read through this thread, I'll just add that LiteralKa seems to have a pretty transparent COI regarding this article, and as such should (at the very least) publicly make that clear; and preferably should avoid making any edits to the GNAA article at all. Minor edits are OK but not if they're controversial (and if someone reverts them, that's a clear sign that they are). Robofish (talk) 11:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- The way COI works is this way... If an editor has a COI but complies with all policies and guidelines, and other editors do not object to their edits, then we allow their editing of the main space of the article (we even encourage it, really). If, however, the editor is being disruptive (either through conflicts with all other editors or violating policies and guidelines), then that editor can be blocked or banned. If we can verify either through technical or behavioral means that sockpuppetry has been occurring, that seems to me a valid reason to do both in this case. -- Atama頭 18:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The COI template doesn't mention citations, and I can tell you right now that #6 doesn't apply in the case you're talking about. If another editor objects for any reason, then it's a controversial edit, and you shouldn't be making it at all. The Cavalry (Message me) 16:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- WP:COI - "Adding citations, especially when another editor has requested them." LiteralKa (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- With the greatest of respect, I disagree, and I do not have to cite specific edits, because the conflict of interest is plainly obvious. Your diffs above are from several weeks before I even came across the article. This isn't about WR, or ED - bringing those sites in is a fallacious argument, and a rather obvious attempt to obfuscate the issue with drama. The only thing that matters here is: should the Head of PR of an organisation be the main editor of the article for that organisation? The Cavalry (Message me) 15:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- When LiteralKa removed that COI tag, there hasn't been any discussion about COI since the previous discussion on COI and neutrality concerns was settled several days earlier. Cavalry didn't make any attempt to re-initiate that discussion, and there wasn't any answer to my call for evidence. Silver_seren also noted the lack of further discussion. There isn't anyone who takes anything say on the GNAA website at face value. It's unlikely that anything said on that website will harm the Wikipedians mentioned. LiteralKa uses the GNAA website in the same way I use Encyclpedia Dramatica: To be funny and entertain visitors. LiteralKa didn't use those press releases to out anyone. Should we ban anyone who mocks Wikipedia on Encyclopedia Dramatica or the Wikipedia Review? Only one thing matters here: How does LiteralKa influence the Gay Nigger Association of America article? LiteralKa's offsite activity doesn't have any effect on that article, so that activity is irrelevant. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 15:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- That sounds like a COI to me. Given his background, LiteralKa should not be editing the article at all. snaphat (talk) 14:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Conclusion, decision
I think the consensus above (among neutral editors) is that LiteralKa and Murdox - and any other editors who hold positions within the GNAA - should not edit GNAA-related articles, except to remove blatant vandalism or post requested edits on the talk page. The problems with their involvement in editing the GNAA article is plainly apparent. To that end, and to clarify exactly what the problems are, I'd like to propose that: "LiteralKa and Murdox are banned from editing articles related to the GNAA, except to remove blatant vandalism, remove BLP policy violations, or fix spelling and grammar errors. All other edits should be requested using the {{Request edit}} template. I think that this is more than fair, and is in line with current community views on this level of COI editing. It also allows LiteralKa and Murdox to focus on improving other topics, while still allowing them to contribute to the article in question. I'd appreciate the viewpoint of neutral editors on this - ie those not pro- or anti-GNAA. The Cavalry (Message me) 14:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- NB: Someone also suggested a full topic-ban, but I'm not sure if that's a bit harsh. The Cavalry (Message me) 14:52, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- We're struggling to get neutral editors involved, so I've mentioned this proposal to a few people who have commented above - but no-one who is openly anti-GNAA. I've also contacted Lugurr, who might come over from simple to comment. The Cavalry (Message me) 22:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Support
- Support topic ban based on inherent WP:COI of editors in question. Their editing history, commentary here at ANI, and AfD nominations of articles bearing names that can contract to the same acronym (whether or not those articles meet WP:GNG), demonstrate to me their inability to remain neutral when dealing with GNAA. I would therefore suggest adding a "broadly construed" qualifier to the topic. The GNAA article itself, along with those nominated at AfD, will stand or fall on their own merits; my concern is the maintenance of the Wikipedia project as a whole, and allowing editors with a clear and demonstrated COI to continue down the path they've selected does more harm than good. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 14:59, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- In my defense, I would like to point out I have never ever ever put an article up for AfD at any point of my wikipedia tenure. I feel heavily that I'm being put in the same basket as LiteralKa despite an essentially spotless on-wiki record. Murdox (talk) 17:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Murdox, you're a single purpose account. Every single one of your edits has been GNAA-related - that's not exactly a spotless record seeing as you run the organisation. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm editing something I feel I can write for wikipedia about instead of doing what I usually do which is edit small gramatical errors and dead links as an IP. Murdox (talk) 18:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- No, but it's not a spotless record. Why not edit about things that aren't GNAA-related - 4chan, or LOIC, or the quite excellent tech-rapper Dan Bull? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk • contribs) 18:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't actually know much about any of those subjects except I think running LOIC and/or DDOS is illegal or something? I dunno. Murdox (talk) 23:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- No, but it's not a spotless record. Why not edit about things that aren't GNAA-related - 4chan, or LOIC, or the quite excellent tech-rapper Dan Bull? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk • contribs) 18:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm editing something I feel I can write for wikipedia about instead of doing what I usually do which is edit small gramatical errors and dead links as an IP. Murdox (talk) 18:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Murdox, you're a single purpose account. Every single one of your edits has been GNAA-related - that's not exactly a spotless record seeing as you run the organisation. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Could you explain why not banning me from AfD/DRV would be a bad thing? It's not a vote, after all. I'd just be adding my two cents. LiteralKa (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- In my defense, I would like to point out I have never ever ever put an article up for AfD at any point of my wikipedia tenure. I feel heavily that I'm being put in the same basket as LiteralKa despite an essentially spotless on-wiki record. Murdox (talk) 17:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I would Support restricting the editors to non-controversial editing of the articles, as outlined at WP:COI#Non-controversial edits, and as proposed above by Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry. I don't support a full topic ban because I don't see that evidence of actual disruption has been shown, in spite of the close affiliation of the editors to the organization. I support the restriction to non-controversial editing because our guideline suggests it anyway, and because other editors have objected so strongly, but not because of any actual behavioral problems that I've seen thus far from LiteralKa and Murdox. -- Atama頭 17:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support, obviously, as nominator. I'd be in favour of a 'broadly construed', perhaps, but I feel that these editors could really help with hacker culture style articles, and I don't want to prevent them from doing so. I don't have a problem with them being involved on the talk pages, or in AFDs, because their comments there won't have a direct impact on GNAA-related articles. The Cavalry (Message me) 17:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support, clear COI violations. Kaldari (talk) 23:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- If they're "clear" how come I have yet to see any edits cited? LiteralKa (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The 2 deletion nominations are clearly listed at the beginning of the discussion. Kaldari (talk) 23:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- And this relates to me directly editing the article how? LiteralKa (talk) 23:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- It's not an article ban, it's a topic ban. In this case the topic includes articles that share the same acronym. Kaldari (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- And this relates to me directly editing the article how? LiteralKa (talk) 23:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The 2 deletion nominations are clearly listed at the beginning of the discussion. Kaldari (talk) 23:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- If they're "clear" how come I have yet to see any edits cited? LiteralKa (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support something or other, maybe not the full topic-ban, but come on, I've come across the PR agents for an organization/person complaining at the BLPN about their edits being undone, the username is blatantly COI and, in general, it results in a speedy delete for the article in question and a permanent block for the user, so what's going on here? Personally, I find GNAA funny like 4chan or all of the other stuff that says "fuck you authority, control , Big Browzer and so on" but this is really OTT COI. CaptainScreebo Parley! 23:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The Pope clearly has a COI editing articles about Catholicism, the bush, you are beating about it. CaptainScreebo Parley! 23:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Good thing the pope doesn't have an account! LiteralKa (talk) 23:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Stop being such a gay nigger and take it like a man. CaptainScreebo Parley! 23:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please do not engage in personal attacks. LiteralKa (talk) 23:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Then don't set yourself up for them; not that I necessarily endorse it, but are you really surprised someone would say that? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:13, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, do please stop engaging in personal attacks. It is not only hypocritical, but against policy. Simply put- it suggests much about the neutrality of the voter and doesn't strengthen supporting sides arguments in the least. snaphat (talk) 00:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, please shut up, if anyone could point out where the personal attack took place that would be useful, as contributors to Wikipedia, I assume that most of you do not take Wikipedian to be a personal attack, so saying 'stop being such a gay nigger' to someone who is the PR guy for the Gay Nigger Association of America can hardly be construed as a personal attack. Thanks but really this devolves into wiki-stupidity and pointiness. CaptainScreebo Parley! 01:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Again, please no personal attacks. snaphat (talk) 01:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Again, stop talking through your hat and repeating yourself, there is no personal attack. (Unless you want there to be one). CaptainScreebo Parley! 01:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Captain Screebo, you name called LiteralKa and told me to shut-up. I saw the warning on your talk page and the discussion on LiteralKa's talk page. I know that The Cavalry is already aware of the initial comment and such. snaphat (talk) 01:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Again, stop talking through your hat and repeating yourself, there is no personal attack. (Unless you want there to be one). CaptainScreebo Parley! 01:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Again, please no personal attacks. snaphat (talk) 01:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, please shut up, if anyone could point out where the personal attack took place that would be useful, as contributors to Wikipedia, I assume that most of you do not take Wikipedian to be a personal attack, so saying 'stop being such a gay nigger' to someone who is the PR guy for the Gay Nigger Association of America can hardly be construed as a personal attack. Thanks but really this devolves into wiki-stupidity and pointiness. CaptainScreebo Parley! 01:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, do please stop engaging in personal attacks. It is not only hypocritical, but against policy. Simply put- it suggests much about the neutrality of the voter and doesn't strengthen supporting sides arguments in the least. snaphat (talk) 00:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Then don't set yourself up for them; not that I necessarily endorse it, but are you really surprised someone would say that? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:13, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please do not engage in personal attacks. LiteralKa (talk) 23:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Stop being such a gay nigger and take it like a man. CaptainScreebo Parley! 23:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support; had this been raised at WP:COIN on any other issue (i.e. a company), there wouldn't even be a question. Perhaps these users should shadow Orangemike and see how he handles articles where he feels he has a conflict of interest; his way of dealing with it doesn't create this kind of drama, or indeed any at all. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:13, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support only for LiteralKa. I took an extensive look through the article history for this year and see nothing Murdox has done wrong with regard to editing the article. However, LiteralKa is a bit of a different story. On the article, the only thing I see wrong was that he removed the COI tags. However, his deletion nominations for other GNAA acronym articles are why I am supporting this- those appear to be motivated by COI. If the latter hadn't been done, I would not support this decision. I would like however to voice my concern that anti-gnaa editors could try to have a field day with the article. I, myself, would rather he be allowed to edit the GNAA article and simply not allowed to AfD or edit other GNAA acronym articles. snaphat (talk) 00:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support only for LiteralKa; on the condition that Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry can provide a neutral administrator or editor to protect the article. Although this looked like an interpersonal dispute at first, Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry has since shown me more instances than just the AfD of blatantly COI-inappropriate editing: edit-warring, COI tag-removal, POV edits; more breaches of trust than I can excuse. Although LiteralKa's edits are not inappropriate outside of the context of COI (indeed they can look pretty good; as I said in my erstwhile oppose vote, for a long time I did not know that they had a COI), they are inappropriate in the framework of COI good practice. As for Murdox, I know that he edits a lot on GNAA and little else, but these seem to be non-controversial cleanup edits, which I have a hard time supporting a ban for. Quigley (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support, as the conflict of interest at hand is too great a conflict of interest. I'm also in favor of bringing in neutral administrators to enforce this. (I also support the deletion of the article, but I can't imagine a sufficient amount do. This is a joke and not worth our time.) hare j 01:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support full-ban as there is no way for Mr. Kaiser and Murdox to be a net positive to the encyclopedia; there's nothing to do in their defence. Diego talk 01:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You have been trolled relentlessly by the GNAA in the past, and thus are by no means a neutral and unbiased editor, especially considering the position you're taking in this discussion. Murdox (talk) 02:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- He's still entitled to his opinion, Murdox, as are you. The Cavalry (Message me) 02:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just trying to point out the possible WP:COI. Murdox (talk) 02:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- There is no COI because I'm not affiliated to any racist organization, AFAIK. You, OTOH, are affiliated to the GNAA; and no, I haven't been trolled relentlessly, and anyway, how would you know that? Oh, right... :-) Diego talk 05:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just trying to point out the possible WP:COI. Murdox (talk) 02:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- He's still entitled to his opinion, Murdox, as are you. The Cavalry (Message me) 02:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You have been trolled relentlessly by the GNAA in the past, and thus are by no means a neutral and unbiased editor, especially considering the position you're taking in this discussion. Murdox (talk) 02:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support - based on the proposer's reasoning, and the precedents that have been applied to thousands of other editors with COI over the years. I am particularly unconvinced by Murdox' reasoning for not actually contributing anything to this project outside of the very area where COI is the strongest. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support only for LiteralKi, as Murdox' edits haven't been very detrimental. Perhaps Murdox can get a warning and a directive towards our COI guidelines. LiteralKi's COI is problematic, as evidenced by The Cavalry, so a topic ban is the common-sense solution. ThemFromSpace 13:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support only for LiteralKa. The sanctions seem perfectly reasonable, and just what we would expect from any other editor with a conflict of interest. However, I am willing to give Murdox the benefit of the doubt as their contributions seem to be within the COI guidelines. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 18:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose
Oppose you people are just looking to cause trouble. I see nothing wrong with what these editors have done with the article. They have kept a NPOV and cited all information added to the article. If we went around preventing anyone who had anything to do with a certain topic from editing, there would be nothing on this site. Kids in the sandbox (talk) 17:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)- Struck, as user is linked by checkuser to hundreds of abusive sockpuppets. The Cavalry (Message me) 19:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose unless "adding citations to uncited statements" is added and "GNAA-related articles is defined as Gay Nigger Association of America, and Goatse Security." Additionally, as neither DRV or AfD is a vote, there is no harm in specifically banning participation in them. (Perhaps banning us from nominations only?) Why don't we ban all Wikipedians from editing Wikipedia while we're at it? LiteralKa (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose I've made this point before, but I've specifically endeavoured on the GNAA article to keep WP:NPOV, WP:NOT, or WP:COPYVIO. I've taken a somewhat "hands off" approach to editing the GNAA article since it made the move to mainspace but by all means I don't feel WP:COI applies to me when I've already consistently shown that I can edit the article sensibly, uncontroversially, and without bias. A topic ban doesn't quite seem to follow the spirit of WP:COI. Murdox (talk) 17:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose I've watched developments on the GNAA article for a long time without knowing that LiteralKa or Murdox were connected to the organization, largely because their contributions to that article were not outwardly partisan or promotional. In fact, they are exemplars of what Wikipedians should be, in that they cited every statement, strictly adhered to NPOV, and calmly addressed the concerns of fanatical anti-GNAA people on the talkpage. Apparently there is some bad blood between old-time Wikipedians and the GNAA, and as a result, many Wikipedians tend to assume the worst in every action from these two users (such as their AfDs of obviously anti-GNAA articles created in bad faith). However, to uninvolved editors like me, looking at the presumed evidence with no prejudice against these two users, I see no egregious violations of COI policy or anything else that would warrant this proposed ban. These editors, probably because of their outside involvement with the organization, are the only editors who would edit an article on such an unpopular group constructively. As long as they strictly adhere to WP:V and WP:RS as they have been doing so far, LiteralKa and Murdox's presence on GNAA articles is crucial to maintaining NPOV against the legions of users who would like nothing more than to have the articles deleted.See support rationale. Quigley (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)- Quigley, would you feel better if we nominated some uninvolved admins/editors to protect the article? There are several editors who'd happily volunteer and have talked to me about it privately, some of them are those who originally improved the article. The Cavalry (Message me) 22:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- That wasn't his concern: "I see no egregious violations of COI policy or anything else that would warrant this proposed ban." LiteralKa (talk) 22:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'd still like his input as one of only two neutral editors who voted 'oppose'. The Cavalry (Message me) 22:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Two things. One: that's not the only "neutral editor." Two: it still won't change his opinion that I am "[an] exemplar of what Wikipedians should be" and that he "see[s] no egregious violations of COI policy or anything else that would warrant this proposed ban." LiteralKa (talk) 22:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- All other things being equal, to have non-COI editors is better than to have COI editors, so your suggestion is good on the face of it. But to gain my support for a ban on those two, I need to see specific diffs of serious disruption resulting from the COI; ideally a pattern of disregard for the points at WP:AVOIDCOI. Quigley (talk) 22:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- @the Cavalry: Out of curiosity, who's the other "neutral editor"? You claim that there are only two. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 23:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Two things. One: that's not the only "neutral editor." Two: it still won't change his opinion that I am "[an] exemplar of what Wikipedians should be" and that he "see[s] no egregious violations of COI policy or anything else that would warrant this proposed ban." LiteralKa (talk) 22:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'd still like his input as one of only two neutral editors who voted 'oppose'. The Cavalry (Message me) 22:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- That wasn't his concern: "I see no egregious violations of COI policy or anything else that would warrant this proposed ban." LiteralKa (talk) 22:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Quigley, would you feel better if we nominated some uninvolved admins/editors to protect the article? There are several editors who'd happily volunteer and have talked to me about it privately, some of them are those who originally improved the article. The Cavalry (Message me) 22:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose – Those in favor of the topic ban have neglected to provide specific diffs or evidence of wrongdoing. Instead of answering my questions, the Cavalry and others decided to focus all of their attention on one of my more tangential comments: [33], [34]. I've provided straight answers. When can I expect straight answers in return? --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose The Cavalry has a clear agenda here, this is not for the benefit of the wiki. incog (talk) 19:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. For fuck's sake, I used to be an admin here, I have tens of thousands of edits on several Wikipedias, including this one, yet I got banned from IRC for being “associated with the GNAA”. Will whoever is in charge of that ridiculous crusade please stop and start doing constructive stuff? Will I be also banned from editing Debian-related articles because I was project leader some time ago and my edits could be biased? Seriously, fuck the bureaucratic bullshit I need to cope with everyday. Sam Hocevar (talk) 20:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sam, this isn't an anti-GNAA discussion - it's a 'person X has a COI and refuses to accept so' discussion. I'd vote keep in an AfD, I just don't want PR people removing COI tags from the article. What I've suggested above is actually less strict than the COI guideline asks them to do. The Cavalry (Message me) 21:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes this is an anti-GNAA discussion, regardless of the original intent. Several of those GNAA acronym articles were created or protected by an admin who had a grudge against GNAA and probably me (he accused me of cheating at the Wikipedia chess championship, so fuck him, too). AfD'ing them is just attempting to clean up the polluted namespace, yet it is used as an argument to show a CoI. LiteralKa probably has every reason to care about the GNAA article's high quality and because it's such a hot topic no one else will probably dare touch the article. What is suggested here is simply to get rid of the people who care enough to research good material for the article, because most of the others were bullied out of it (need I remind you that there was a long “no GNAA-related discussion” policy on `#wikipedia-en` and several ops would ban on sight?). 2 months from now Diego, who of course has no CoI here, or other people, such as the ones who believe I should be banned from `#wikipedia-en` just because I’m “related” to those people, will AfD it. I'm not saying there is premeditation, but there will certainly be causality. Sam Hocevar (talk) 20:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sam, this isn't an anti-GNAA discussion - it's a 'person X has a COI and refuses to accept so' discussion. I'd vote keep in an AfD, I just don't want PR people removing COI tags from the article. What I've suggested above is actually less strict than the COI guideline asks them to do. The Cavalry (Message me) 21:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose Can someone explain to me where edits from either LiteralKa or Murdox have been BAD to Wikipedia in any sort of way. This is seeming more and more of personal opinion rather than an actual violation of WP:COI. Wildthing61476 (talk) 20:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)- Changing my view to a support based on these comments, and per Quigley's notes in the Support area. Wildthing61476 (talk) 13:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Trying to delete Wikipedia content solely because it shares an acronym with your organization is about as blatant a violation of WP:COI as you can get. Kaldari (talk) 23:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, let's see. One of them is going to get merged, and the other kept. I'd say that I improved the encyclopedia through those. LiteralKa (talk) 23:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just because your abusive behavior wasn't completely successful doesn't mean it wasn't abusive behavior. The fact that you are unwilling to acknowledge your COI makes me more certain that a topic ban is appropriate. Kaldari (talk) 23:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Let's see, one of the AfDs was completely legitimate and valid. The other was in questionable territory, namely due to a severe lack of significant coverage, which the AfD fixed. LiteralKa (talk) 00:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The AfDs could be completely legitimate and still constitute a conflict of interests. If you have something to gain from the articles being deleted, you should have asked someone else to nominate them. Kaldari (talk) 00:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The AfDs don't fall under WP:COI, so I don't see what you're getting at. LiteralKa (talk) 00:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- "There are no firm criteria to determine whether a conflict of interest exists, but there are warning signs." The warning signs have been presented and I believe they are convincing. Kaldari (talk) 00:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I should also add that WP:AVOIDCOI, point two, is pretty clear. Just because they're not in your industry, it doesn't mean you're not competing for the trademark 'GNAA' initials. The Cavalry (Message me) 13:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The AfDs don't fall under WP:COI, so I don't see what you're getting at. LiteralKa (talk) 00:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The AfDs could be completely legitimate and still constitute a conflict of interests. If you have something to gain from the articles being deleted, you should have asked someone else to nominate them. Kaldari (talk) 00:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Let's see, one of the AfDs was completely legitimate and valid. The other was in questionable territory, namely due to a severe lack of significant coverage, which the AfD fixed. LiteralKa (talk) 00:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just because your abusive behavior wasn't completely successful doesn't mean it wasn't abusive behavior. The fact that you are unwilling to acknowledge your COI makes me more certain that a topic ban is appropriate. Kaldari (talk) 23:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, let's see. One of them is going to get merged, and the other kept. I'd say that I improved the encyclopedia through those. LiteralKa (talk) 23:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Trying to delete Wikipedia content solely because it shares an acronym with your organization is about as blatant a violation of WP:COI as you can get. Kaldari (talk) 23:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose for Murdox I cannot find anything he did wrong at all. Is there anything? It doesn't seem fair to me to lump them together. snaphat (talk) 00:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose There has yet to be any clear examples of a violation of WP:COI. Just because a user has a COI doesn't mean that they are not allowed to edit the article they are affiliated with. It just means that they are only able to make certain types of changes to the article and not to add material that advocates and promotes the subject. There is no evidence that either of the users in question have done such a thing, so this topic ban proposal is entirely fruitless and just plain vindictive. SilverserenC 04:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Let me also note that the proposal seems to be some sort of attempt to restate the COI policy so that there can be more active punishment for any mistake in regards to the article. It is entirely redundant and, again, pointless. SilverserenC 04:59, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- SS: Just so you've got a better explanation of what exactly ires me here, it's listed at User talk:Quigley#As requested re:GNAA. The Cavalry (Message me) 13:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just FYI, I've added my two cents and rebuttal to CMLITC's points on that page. I understand you didn't want to clutter up the discussion page, but is there any reason you couldn't have made those points within this thread directly to Quigley? Murdox (talk) 17:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I supplied them to his talk page, rather than here, because originally they were directed as a response to Quigley's questioning. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:34, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just FYI, I've added my two cents and rebuttal to CMLITC's points on that page. I understand you didn't want to clutter up the discussion page, but is there any reason you couldn't have made those points within this thread directly to Quigley? Murdox (talk) 17:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- SS: Just so you've got a better explanation of what exactly ires me here, it's listed at User talk:Quigley#As requested re:GNAA. The Cavalry (Message me) 13:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Let me also note that the proposal seems to be some sort of attempt to restate the COI policy so that there can be more active punishment for any mistake in regards to the article. It is entirely redundant and, again, pointless. SilverserenC 04:59, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The first thing I would point out is that practically none of the stuff listed there is about Murdox. You seem to just be going after him because he's a part of GNAA. As for your points in order: SilverserenC 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- 1. The fact that the two of them edit around a set of articles doesn't mean anything if you don't have any proof that they are editing unconstructively within the articles. The reasoning for the AfDs has been explained and it is a reasonable enough reason. Thus, your point #1 lists pretty much nothing. SilverserenC 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- 2. I really don't think the "competitors" that COI is discussing means other groups with the same acronym. Again, the reasoning lsted by LiteralKa for the AfD nominations makes sense. So, again, this has nothing to do with COI. SilverserenC 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- 3. You list no examples, so i'm just going to skip this. SilverserenC 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- 4. The corporation thing is a minor quibble and would certainly seem like an edit war over something that has no real relation to the content in the article. As for the Prodego edit war, Prodego was completely and absolutely wrong there. He seems to think that sources from GNAA can't be used for basic information, like we allow for every other article on Wikipedia. This was already being discussed on the talk page as it is. The removal of the COI tag goes both ways. If you add it, then you have to list on the talk page what edits specifically are from a COI point of view. This did not happen and we do not perpetually have a COI tag on articles just because someone affiliated edits it. And the text removal, as LiteralKa said in the edit summary and on the talk page is already discussed in the rest of the article. Including it in the lede is both a weight issue and, I do think, a POV pushing of negative material about the GNAA. The only thing i'm willing to give you is the addition of the category, that was wrong to do. But the rest of your "evidence" is, to put it bluntly, utter crap. SilverserenC 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It might be "utter crap", but it seems to be a concern for the 13 users above - nearly all of whom are uninvolved. The Cavalry (Message me) 23:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Because what you're asking for in this poll is essentially what WP:COI says anyways, except it doesn't ban other actions, so people largely don't have an issue with it. However, what they're not considering is that this is just WP:CREEP applied on a user level. It's baseless and is extremely pointless. I'm going to be watching the article and the talk page after this to make sure that this isn't an attempt to make the article entirely negative POV-wise. It is well known that portions of the community dislike the GNAA and are constantly out to try and make the article negative, but not encyclopedic. SilverserenC 23:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It might be "utter crap", but it seems to be a concern for the 13 users above - nearly all of whom are uninvolved. The Cavalry (Message me) 23:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Comments
Could we identify an edit (aside from removing the COI tags, I won't do that again) that inserted POV? The only edit that people had problems with was explained and accepted as NPOV. LiteralKa (talk) 17:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've moved the above comment to a comments section, rather than cluttering up the straw poll. In short, you are focussing too much on individual edits, and the individual edits aren't the problem: it's the fact that you have a COI. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- "A Wikipedia conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups. Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." I can't speak on LiteralKa's behalf, but I've shown straight up that I don't have a conflict of interest. Murdox (talk) 18:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am not sure how to take your assertion that the President of X does not have a conflict of interest when editing an article about X. It is an unusual assertion. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The very thrust of WP:COI is that the specific affiliation does not matter, it's the user's conduct on-wiki. Quigley put it much more eloquently than I ever could, but the fact of the matter is that I would only have a Conflict of Interest if I put promoting the GNAA above contributing towards Wikipedia. I believe my behaviour on-wiki shows that: No, I have not put promoting the GNAA above contributing towards wikipedia. After all, I hardly have to worry about being "fired" from GNAA if I don't promote them on Wikipedia. :) Murdox (talk) 18:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, but you're mistaken: How do you know you don't have an unconscious bias? Several uninvolved editors have pointed this out to you, especially that your editing pattern displays a clear COI - but you're not quite getting the hang of it. Ignore the wording of the policy, for a moment, and think: If we can't trust the anti-GNAA members to edit the article without bias - even when they are editing for the sole benefit of Wikipedia - how can we trust you? The Cavalry (Message me) 19:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- This is a really unusual case for me, and I deal with a lot of COI cases. Generally, when we deal with COI issues, one of two things are happening. Either an editor has a COI, but is still able to edit productively, and nobody objects. Or, the editor has a COI, and is causing disruption, and people object. This is a case where an editor has a very strong COI (the president of the organization no less) but no actual disruption has been shown, and yet a number of people are still objecting to it. I'm not sure I've ever seen this before. I think that a fair compromise here is the one proposed above, that editors with a COI be asked to restrict themselves to uncontroversial edits. Technically, anyone can be banned from anything as long as a community consensus is found for doing so. WP:BAN says that it must, or should be in response to repeated disruption (it's difficult to tell which) but we can possibly infer that multiple people saying "please stop editing due to your COI", and the editors continuing anyway, could be considered disruptive. This is a weird grey area for me. -- Atama頭 19:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, why can't we let anti-GNAA editors edit the article if their edits are by all means NPOV and intend on improving Wikipedia? Quality and bias are measurable quantities in Wikipedian terms. Furthermore, my "editing pattern" is an incredibly vague term. I'd like to see which uninvolved editors have specifically taken issue with my edits and behaviour, and not lumped me in with LiteralKa's behaviour on-wiki. In regards to what Atama is saying, I understand it's a weird situation. However, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with what amounts to putting community consensus over actively improving Wikipedia. It would be much easier for me to understand where the oppose votes were coming from if I'd made grandiose, self-publicising claims on the article but the fact of the matter is I've utterly strived to play by Wikipedia's rules on this article because it's obviously an area which generates heated emotions. I'm willing to take into consideration other people's points of view, but I'm not willing to consent to a community-imposed ban for playing by the rules. Murdox (talk) 19:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- This is a really unusual case for me, and I deal with a lot of COI cases. Generally, when we deal with COI issues, one of two things are happening. Either an editor has a COI, but is still able to edit productively, and nobody objects. Or, the editor has a COI, and is causing disruption, and people object. This is a case where an editor has a very strong COI (the president of the organization no less) but no actual disruption has been shown, and yet a number of people are still objecting to it. I'm not sure I've ever seen this before. I think that a fair compromise here is the one proposed above, that editors with a COI be asked to restrict themselves to uncontroversial edits. Technically, anyone can be banned from anything as long as a community consensus is found for doing so. WP:BAN says that it must, or should be in response to repeated disruption (it's difficult to tell which) but we can possibly infer that multiple people saying "please stop editing due to your COI", and the editors continuing anyway, could be considered disruptive. This is a weird grey area for me. -- Atama頭 19:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, but you're mistaken: How do you know you don't have an unconscious bias? Several uninvolved editors have pointed this out to you, especially that your editing pattern displays a clear COI - but you're not quite getting the hang of it. Ignore the wording of the policy, for a moment, and think: If we can't trust the anti-GNAA members to edit the article without bias - even when they are editing for the sole benefit of Wikipedia - how can we trust you? The Cavalry (Message me) 19:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The very thrust of WP:COI is that the specific affiliation does not matter, it's the user's conduct on-wiki. Quigley put it much more eloquently than I ever could, but the fact of the matter is that I would only have a Conflict of Interest if I put promoting the GNAA above contributing towards Wikipedia. I believe my behaviour on-wiki shows that: No, I have not put promoting the GNAA above contributing towards wikipedia. After all, I hardly have to worry about being "fired" from GNAA if I don't promote them on Wikipedia. :) Murdox (talk) 18:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am not sure how to take your assertion that the President of X does not have a conflict of interest when editing an article about X. It is an unusual assertion. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- "A Wikipedia conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups. Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." I can't speak on LiteralKa's behalf, but I've shown straight up that I don't have a conflict of interest. Murdox (talk) 18:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Off-wiki canvassing
This account has been canvassing this discussion off-wiki. Could whoever is running the account please not canvass their supporters? This isn't a vote. The Cavalry (Message me) 19:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see any canvassing. Could you link to a specific tweet? LiteralKa (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, you're reaching here. I don't see how a link to the New York Times or nads.org is canvassing? LiteralKa (talk)
- Just here, July 26th at 1:31am. Links to shortcode ending in cPpM724, which links directly to this discussion. The Cavalry (Message me) 20:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!" LiteralKa (talk) 20:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Then check the main account? The Cavalry (Message me) 20:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Still no. LiteralKa (talk) 20:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Check harder please. The Cavalry (Message me) 20:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- And this fails WP:CANVASS how? (eg. since when does posting a raw URL on the Internet violate any policy.) LiteralKa (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Have you conidered that it's a spambot account, simply reguritating random webpages? GiantSnowman 20:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I wouldn't worry until or unless a bunch of meatpuppets show up out of nowhere to support with their brand new accounts. But if that does happen it would only serve to hurt the GNAA in this case, so I think it's worth mentioning here so that LiteralKa can prevent it from happening, if it's at all possible. -- Atama頭 21:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- We've already had MeepSheep show up, and the GNAA article has started up on SimpleWiki in the last few hours, under a new user (no prior experience with wikis, judging by contributions) called 'Lugurr'. I'm also a little confused as to how the Tweet disappeared so quickly... The Cavalry (Message me) 21:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- And you attribute... a tweet to a sockpuppetteer noticing something controversial on a large, public noticeboard and a guy deciding to create a cross-wiki article? LiteralKa (talk) 21:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Lugurr isn't creating a cross-wiki article, he's just active on simple. You're saying that you don't know how the article on GNAA on simplewiki has started, that it's just a coincidence? The Cavalry (Message me) 21:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Not that far-fetched considering the recent controversy over this. LiteralKa (talk) 21:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The controversy is just on-wiki though. I'm trying to work out where/how Lugurr was notified of this discussion. He says it was ED, but I can't for the life of me find where on ED it was. I've just asked him if he recognises your username: if he does, then he's probably found it off ED, 4chan, or the like. If he doesn't, then I'm stumped. The Cavalry (Message me) 21:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- And why would he recognize my nickname if you are concerned about a "Gary Niger" canvassing? Do I smell bad faith? LiteralKa (talk) 21:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The controversy is just on-wiki though. I'm trying to work out where/how Lugurr was notified of this discussion. He says it was ED, but I can't for the life of me find where on ED it was. I've just asked him if he recognises your username: if he does, then he's probably found it off ED, 4chan, or the like. If he doesn't, then I'm stumped. The Cavalry (Message me) 21:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Not that far-fetched considering the recent controversy over this. LiteralKa (talk) 21:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Lugurr isn't creating a cross-wiki article, he's just active on simple. You're saying that you don't know how the article on GNAA on simplewiki has started, that it's just a coincidence? The Cavalry (Message me) 21:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- And you attribute... a tweet to a sockpuppetteer noticing something controversial on a large, public noticeboard and a guy deciding to create a cross-wiki article? LiteralKa (talk) 21:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- We've already had MeepSheep show up, and the GNAA article has started up on SimpleWiki in the last few hours, under a new user (no prior experience with wikis, judging by contributions) called 'Lugurr'. I'm also a little confused as to how the Tweet disappeared so quickly... The Cavalry (Message me) 21:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I wouldn't worry until or unless a bunch of meatpuppets show up out of nowhere to support with their brand new accounts. But if that does happen it would only serve to hurt the GNAA in this case, so I think it's worth mentioning here so that LiteralKa can prevent it from happening, if it's at all possible. -- Atama頭 21:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Have you conidered that it's a spambot account, simply reguritating random webpages? GiantSnowman 20:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- And this fails WP:CANVASS how? (eg. since when does posting a raw URL on the Internet violate any policy.) LiteralKa (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Check harder please. The Cavalry (Message me) 20:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Still no. LiteralKa (talk) 20:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Then check the main account? The Cavalry (Message me) 20:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!" LiteralKa (talk) 20:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just here, July 26th at 1:31am. Links to shortcode ending in cPpM724, which links directly to this discussion. The Cavalry (Message me) 20:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Guilford Native American Association (2nd nomination) as a disruptive nomination. Anyone who would like to re-nominate it for a good faith AfD should feel free to do so after a reasonable interval. As for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gridless Narrow-Angle Astrometry, there seems clear consensus for a merge to Space Interferometry Mission and I've closed it according, choosing to disregard any possible incorrect motivation for nomination in order to deal with the article appropriately. DGG ( talk ) 00:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
LiteralKa indefinitely blocked
Full explanation here. Hersfold (t/a/c) 00:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am completely and utterly against this block. All of the reasons listed are not blockable reasons. There is a consensus for a semi-topic ban in this discussion, that is not a consensus for an indefinite block. It has yet to be proven at all that they have been editing disruptively in the subject areas. The use of an account with a different name on Simple Wikipedia, without using an account over there with the current name, is not sockpuppetry. Having to reveal a COI interest over there is one thing, but it is most definitely not enough for an indefinite block. This is an utter perversion of our rules. SilverserenC 01:41, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Silverseren, I was against the block also until I looked at the talk page of Lugurr on Simple English Wiki. When asked if he was LiteralKa, he changed how he writes and lied about it. snaphat ► 02:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Well since you agree there was a consensus for the topic ban despite being against it, that can be enforced if/when LiteralKa is unblocked. However I don't quite follow how there would be a lack of evidence of disruption if there is consensus for a topic ban based on said disruption. Regardless, there is demonstrable evidence that LiteralKa is using these two accounts to create the impression of greater support for GNAA on multiple wikis, which is by definition sockpuppetry and disruptive. (after edit conflict) And per Snaphat's comments, the behavioral evidence of sockpuppetry with intent to disrupt is very compelling. Hersfold (t/a/c) 02:09, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
User ClaudioSantos (again), personal attacks
Disruptive user ClaudioSantos (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) also known as PepitoPerez2007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is making numerous personal attacks against other editors, likening them to "buffoons" and "donkies". When reproached for this, he simply claims, in broken English, that this is how people interact in Spanish (namely, with insulting epithets and pejorative metaphors).
I quote him here:
I will not go into his extensive history of disruption, right from when he was an IP-hopping editor. Jabbsworth (talk) 02:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- You state he's using multiple accounts. Have you opened a sockpuppetry investigation? That seems to me the next logical step to take. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 02:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- No, AFAIK he is only using the ClaudioSantos account now. Jabbsworth (talk) 02:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Why does it matter if he's socking or not? Uncivil editor is uncivil. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 03:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Fair enough. So this didn't go to WP:WQA...why, exactly? That seems a much more apropos venue for the issue. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 03:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Why does it matter if he's socking or not? Uncivil editor is uncivil. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 03:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I brought it here because of exasperation with this user. He started off editing as an IP on Action T4 and reduce the pace to a shambles, despite the repeated intervention of admin TeaDrinker, who could not control him. He posted messages in ALL CAPS AND BOLD again and again on the Talk page, claiming that wikipedia was conspiring to murder people. Eventually he registered an account, which was blocked, and now another account, ClaudioSantos. As ClaudioSantos he is engaged in numerous edit wars on euthanasia-related pages, for instance:
- Trying to insert the word "murder" onto Dr Jack Kevorkian's page
- Trying to put an Infobox Criminal on Kevorkian's page
- Trying to delete nearly all of the content on the pages Suicide bag and Exit International
- Trying to slant the whole page on Euthanasia to say that the Nazi WW2 extermination program, which used the euphemism "euthanasia" to camouflage outright murder, is akin to modern euthanasia.
- Etc etc .. too much to go into here.
Bottom line is that this is a highly disruptive, bafflegab-generating, intensely POV editor who is harming the project in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. His egregious insults were the final straw. So I guess this is more, in the end, than an etiquette issue, and I should have said so in the beginning. This is really an extension of a previous incident on this noticeboard → here A search for "claudiosantos" on this board raises several other incidents on this editor, lodged by other editors (not me). Jabbsworth (talk) 03:46, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- User:Jabbsworth, who reported me here becasue alleged PA, he is currently being involved in a WP:WQA as another user feels Jabbsworth has been personally attacking him[37]. Few days ago Jabbsworth was unblocked after being permanently blocked due 6-sockpuppets. His 6 sockpuppets has also a long record of edit wars. Just one day after being unblocked Jabbsworth got another block due edit warring. I have also felt rude his comments remarking the users' religion[38][[39] and language[40][41]. And more than one user expresively asked to stop that sort of comments. It seems that as he is against my position on euthanasia then he encourages other users to report me to the ANI. Ironically the above user who complaint about Jabbsworth rude behaviour was in the past encouraged by Jabbsworth to report me to the ANI to get a block for me ate the euhtanasia articles. For my comments: the above comments were clearly explained in the respective talk page of that article, those are spanish expressions, adages, proverbs used to explain certain situations, and I expressively said that I was not referring to the users but to the situation, precisely "a donkey speaking about ears" is a proverb used when someone accuses or remarks faults allegedely commited by another people while he himself is commiting those faults, it is like a donkey speaking about other's ears. I do not know what is the respective english expresion. But after all I know why Jabbsworth did intrud in a conversation between me and another user just to encourage the other user to report me to the ANI because of my proverbs. Look my last editions on Euthanasia or in Richard Jenne and in the respective talk pages, to realize what are my real edits, all well sourced and all my efforts to argue in the dispute resolution there using reliable, verifiable references, etc (See for example this or this). For a change, it seems Jabbsworht is just trying to resolve the dispute through eliminating me out of the field. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 04:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- My own etiquette case involves a user who cannot produce any evidence of a PA, other than that I quoted his misspelled word with a (sic) next to it,
- My recent unblock and puppet case involved me using multiple accounts to try to avoid persistent wikistalking and even real life stalking, and the evidence was accepted by Arbcom, so do not raise it again.
- I have made no rude comments on anyone's religion, merely highlighted that some of the POV edits on euthanasia are coming from the religiously motivated (which everyone knows is true),
- Likening people to "buffoons" and "donkeys" is not excused by claiming cultural differences. Perhaps, since you are a native Spanish speaker, you should take your insults to the Spanish version of wikipedia where nobody will take exception? Jabbsworth (talk) 04:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The correct link to that earlier IP-case mentioned is this one. It is a case out of 2009, so I have no idea what is the worth of it in 2011.
- Secondly, Jabbsworth a.k.a. Ratel a.k.a. TickleMeister has a particular disrespect for people who's first language is not English. Referring to other peoples spelling mistakes is extremely annoying and, to my opinion, a PA. By the way: Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#Jabbsworth. There Jabbsworth disruptive and annoying style of editing is discussed. No matter what happens, he claims to be the innocent victim and the other guys is the bad boy.
- Thirdly: it is just a content dispute. To my opinion ClaudioSantos is strongly against euthanasia, while Jabbsworth is strongly in favour of it (to the extent sometimes that he is promoting it).
- In my opinion, the only way to solve this dispute is giving a topic ban to euthanasia related articles to both Jabbsworth and ClaudioSantos. (And I would accept one too, if necessary) Night of the Big Wind talk 12:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The comment above comes from someone who believes I am "promoting" a non-profit by adding the number of staff and names of key directors to the organisation's infobox on the organisation's wikipage. Is this a sane viewpoint? You do the math, dear reader!
Jabbsworth (talk) 16:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Is adding this picture neutral or a provocation? I take it as a provocation and POV-pushing... Night of the Big Wind talk 19:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- You Jabssworth subtracted to the equation that NotBW is also reverting your attempts to publish in wikipedia parts of a manual to commit suicide, which is one of the well known purpose of that organization: to teach how to commit suicide. And NotBW not solely warned that is not the purpose of wikipedia to teach how to commit suicide, but he also (plus) warned that it also could bring adverse legal consequences for wikimedia foundation, because assisting suicide is against the law in most of the United States including Florida. Perhaps readers know more than subtract. Notice that NotBW never suggested that Jabbsworth's point of view was insane or illegal. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 17:46, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The comment above comes from someone who believes I am "promoting" a non-profit by adding the number of staff and names of key directors to the organisation's infobox on the organisation's wikipage. Is this a sane viewpoint? You do the math, dear reader!
Three month topic ban proposal
- Note: This proposal has now passed the bare minimum 48 hr discussion period and may be closed by any uninvolved administrator who believes there is a consensus. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:29, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Proposed for community consideration:
- Jabbsworth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and ClaudioSantos (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) are both topic banned by the Wikipedia community from Euthanasia and related topics, broadly construed, and banned from interacting with each other, broadly construed, for a period of three months. Any checkuser-verified sockpuppetry used to evade the ban by those users during the ban period will result in a six-month editing block on that user. Either user may make minimal reports to uninvolved administrators should they observe a topic ban violation by the other party that is not responded to, 24 hrs after the violation and in absence of any administrator reaction, but may not discuss it further after notifying of the diff and the applicable ban.
- Proposed. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support topic and interaction bans based on observed exchanges between editors both at WP:ANI and on the Euthanasia talk page. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support - a reasonable solution to the users disruptive contributing/interactions in the Euthanasia and related topic area. Off2riorob (talk) 20:22, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Disagree unless the ban specifically relates to Euthanasia and its subpages (ie Voluntary euthanasia, Non-voluntary euthanasia etc). This is, in fact, a proposal I put to ClaudioSantos myself, suggesting to him that we only make arguments on the Talk pages diff. Of course, he declined. But do not extend the ban, for me at least, to articles I have defended with consensus support, such as Jack Kevorkian, which ClaudioSantos has tried to vandalise by calling the man a "murderer" and changing his Medical Infobox to a Criminal Infobox, etc. For heavens sake, don't punish someone who is defending the Project from this sort of rubbish! Likewise, don't ban me from pages like Suicide bag, because this page is now under attack by an editor with a grudge against me (Night of the Big Wind (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)) who is trying to have it reduced to a stub on specious grounds. And at least leave access to all Talk pages. Thanks. Jabbsworth (talk) 23:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- If he's not editing on the topic, there's nothing to have to defend (and others editing in consensus can do usual work on it). The proposed ban includes talk pages as both you and ClaudioSantos have had aggressive head-butting sessions on those. It's just better for both of you to step away from the topic and each other, and work on something else for a while. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:10, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ok George, if that's what you want. I'm only trying to improve the euthanasia space, which has been sorely neglected and recently messed up by people with political or religious axes to grind. But there are a few good editors getting involved now too, so let them at it! Please consider topic banning Night of the Big Wind too please, as he's been fanning flames from the get-go, and he has invited one above as well when he said Claudio and I should be banned, "and I would accept one too, if necessary". That's an admission that he's been heavily involved in the disruption. Jabbsworth (talk) 23:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't seen much disruption involving Night of the Big Wind, but if others feel he should be included then the case can be presented. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:07, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- A ban will not change that it was a jury who condemned Jack Kevorkian as a murderer so I was just editing the thing based on reliable sources. And be aware also that you Jabbsworth publicly attempt to pressume and publish my alleged religion, my country of location, as you have done repeatedly is a sort of WP:OUTING and WP:HARASSMENT. You Jabbsworth were already warned here. Your double standars are proverbial as I have noticed with my proverbs but also was noted by NotBW -- ClaudioSantos¿? 01:07, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please calm down and discuss constructively here, ClaudioSantos. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- I fixed the NY Times link in Claudio's post. -- JN466 05:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Jayen. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 19:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ok George, if that's what you want. I'm only trying to improve the euthanasia space, which has been sorely neglected and recently messed up by people with political or religious axes to grind. But there are a few good editors getting involved now too, so let them at it! Please consider topic banning Night of the Big Wind too please, as he's been fanning flames from the get-go, and he has invited one above as well when he said Claudio and I should be banned, "and I would accept one too, if necessary". That's an admission that he's been heavily involved in the disruption. Jabbsworth (talk) 23:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- If he's not editing on the topic, there's nothing to have to defend (and others editing in consensus can do usual work on it). The proposed ban includes talk pages as both you and ClaudioSantos have had aggressive head-butting sessions on those. It's just better for both of you to step away from the topic and each other, and work on something else for a while. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:10, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- strong support A classic tracert more or less confirmed my suspicion that you might have a conflict of interest in the whole Euthanasia-sector and Exit International. But is still only a suspicion. To me it seems a reasonable solution to the users disruptive contributing/interactions in the Euthanasia and related topic area. Night of the Big Wind talk 23:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Wow. Okay, we're going to have to give you a chance to reword that there, because I just read that comment as saying that an entire country has COI and shouldn't be editing certain pages. That's an inappropriate remark to make. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:35, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- This better? (after 3x bwc) Night of the Big Wind talk 23:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Although Jabbsworth is not bound to publish his private information, does not should he let the community clearly know if he has a relationship with Exit International as it could constitute a COI given his clearly strong and biased engagement in that article and in Suicide bag which is also related to that organization?. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 01:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- This better? (after 3x bwc) Night of the Big Wind talk 23:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Wow. Okay, we're going to have to give you a chance to reword that there, because I just read that comment as saying that an entire country has COI and shouldn't be editing certain pages. That's an inappropriate remark to make. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:35, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am happy to comply. I have absolutely no relationship to Exit International (a non-profit, BTW). I am guilty of owning a copy of The Peaceful Pill Handbook though, and like the vast majority of people, I support the concept of voluntary euthanasia, because I've seen people dying in agony, despite painkillers and hospice palliative care. I have no desire to force my religion down other people's throats, forcing them to die an undignified and horrific death because my god or ideology dictates it. Jabbsworth (talk) 01:45, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, at any rate you are trying to force your POV on euthanasia here. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 01:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am happy to comply. I have absolutely no relationship to Exit International (a non-profit, BTW). I am guilty of owning a copy of The Peaceful Pill Handbook though, and like the vast majority of people, I support the concept of voluntary euthanasia, because I've seen people dying in agony, despite painkillers and hospice palliative care. I have no desire to force my religion down other people's throats, forcing them to die an undignified and horrific death because my god or ideology dictates it. Jabbsworth (talk) 01:45, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- But first, would either Night of the Big Wind or ClaudioSantos do Wiki a favour and go to Jack Kevorkian and fix the claim that at least 17 patients who suicided "could have lived indefinitely". Might be OK for a newspaper to say people can live indefinitely, but Wiki hopefully has better scholarship than to perpetuate such an absurd statement. Moriori (talk) 01:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- It was not NotBW neither me who added that sentence to that article. But at any rate, if eternal life is your concern may you should read that sentence literally. As "living idefinitely" strictly does not mean "living forever", but precisely: an undefined time. I now have to wonder if killing is precisely defining life's lenght. Whatever. You Moriori perhaps should also find absurd the wide spreaded slogan: "right to die", as if someone could be forced to live forever. Should it be rewritten "right to not live indefinitely"?. Whatever again. What I certainly have to write here is that the "right to live" is also a quite absurd statement that -nevertheless- had to be included into the law, precisely because people are indeed being killed. For example, in the German Weimar Constitution, there was not explicity a "right to live". But this apparently natural and self-evident right had to be included after WWII in the German Constituion and in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, precisely because of the 60 million of murders, included those commited by doctors under the guise of euthanasia during the Nazi regime. Perhaps it should be noticed here that also the informed consent binding medical doctors, was also not a gift from the good doctors, but it was included into the law because of the indeed coercively medical practices in the nazi europe, but also at other places like the forced sterilizations in the United States. Excuse my non-indefinitely long response. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 03:55, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support - CS seems to be edit warring again already on the Jack Kevorkian page. Let's end the disruption. Dayewalker (talk) 05:12, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Edit warring? For restoring a quote trimed by Jabbsworth just because a medical chief was critic to Kevorkian? In a paragraph with balanced pros and cons? A paragraph that was accepted by consensus with NotBW?. You must be joking or are you biased yourself? -- ClaudioSantos¿? 05:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- You are up for a three month topic ban on the articles, and in the middle of that you've made the same edit three times [42] [43] [44] in less than two hours, reverting two other editors. Regardless of the content, that's edit warring. If it's that important, the best thing for both of you to do is to just leave it for some other editors who's not about to be topic banned. Dayewalker (talk) 05:38, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Edit warring? For restoring a quote trimed by Jabbsworth just because a medical chief was critic to Kevorkian? In a paragraph with balanced pros and cons? A paragraph that was accepted by consensus with NotBW?. You must be joking or are you biased yourself? -- ClaudioSantos¿? 05:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yup, half of Kevorkian's "Legacy" subsection is occupied by a scathing comment from a man who runs the palliative care unit in a Catholic hospital. It should have been completely removed because it is nothing more than mean-spirited sniping, and has naught to do with his legacy, but I left some of it in to satisfy Claudio. That was not good enough for him. It's his all or nothing, take no prisoners approach that's making editing anywhere in his vicinity toxic. What's the Spanish word for "compromise"? Jabbsworth (talk) 06:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- You should have read it properly, Jabbsworth. In fact the guy said plain: I like the way he stirred up the debat, but his methods were wrong. Then you should not chop away half of it. Page protection is requested to stop another of your editwars, but at least that is better then the page protection you have requested on Suicide bag to protect your own edits from evil guys. Night of the Big Wind talk 12:02, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yup, half of Kevorkian's "Legacy" subsection is occupied by a scathing comment from a man who runs the palliative care unit in a Catholic hospital. It should have been completely removed because it is nothing more than mean-spirited sniping, and has naught to do with his legacy, but I left some of it in to satisfy Claudio. That was not good enough for him. It's his all or nothing, take no prisoners approach that's making editing anywhere in his vicinity toxic. What's the Spanish word for "compromise"? Jabbsworth (talk) 06:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Full Support I've protected three articles fully for 2 weeks because of the two and edit warring. -- DQ (t) (e) 12:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ask admin to be fair in order to be constructive Hey George, above you asked me to be calm. But I think it is absolutely not constructive that Jabbsworth have been referring publicly to my personal info, my "religious agenda", my "incomprehensible grammar", my "tenuous grasp of English", my "broken english", my "poor reading comprehension", and just here above referring to my edits as "vandalism", "rubish", etc.; and I am not the only user concerned (he said "grudge", "insane point of view", "bloody minded" referring to NotBW, etc.). In more than one opportunity I have complained about these disruptive provocations to you George, but I have got no response at all. So I also find far from being constructive that again and again you solely ask me to calm down, but again and again you let that sort of things pass, without not even a shy demand adressed to Jabbsworth about his disruptive, provocative and rude behaviour to the oher users. It seems a clew of certain sort of bias from you. If you would at least attempted to stop that sort of comments perhaps I would not had to publish mine nor to defend myself from those PA's. To get an objective panorama you also should have read my edits during the last days. For example you should take a look of Talk:Euthanasia and talk:Richard Jenne, wher I have been just providing sources and arguments, thus making strong efforts to argue and avoiding Jabbswroth provocations. While Jabbsworth again and again was solely "replaying" my comments with provocations and nothing else. So be fair to be constructive. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 23:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Disagree: I propose a complete ban for Jabbsworth. He needs and interaction ban with everybody here. It is proverbial Jabbsworth ability to hunt wars and disrupt users. Jabbsworth is now also engaged in a clear war not only against me but also against another user, just because Jabbsworth attempts to force by any mean his pro euthanasia agenda and attempts to eliminate any obstacle including opposite users. Take a look on his last comments to NotBW and his warring edits on the respective articles. For me is clear that Jabbsworht is now provoking and attacking NotBW. Just a couple of examples: Jabbsworth is expressivelly telling to NotBW to "stay away from the articles I (Jabbswroth) have created"[45], and Jabbsworth uses his usual provocative PAs, such as referring to NotBW as "risible","pathetic","pointless", etc.[46]. I found Jabbsworth very agressive against the people. Jabbsworth deserves a ban. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 00:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're cherry picking comments off talk pages, out of context, which is typical. Anyone interested enough in this subsection is advised to look at the edit histories and talk pages of Suicide bag and Exit International to see how User:ClaudioSantos and User:Night of the Big Wind are tag-teaming to revert and destroy perfectly good articles, mainly because I am trying to expand them. They have added no data to these articles, merely tried to remove information (cited to RSes). This kind of battleground activity should be strongly discouraged. Jabbsworth (talk) 00:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, Jabbswroth you think that you are the victim here. You Jabbsworth in two weeks got involved in two wars with two different users (and NotBW used to be your wikifriend who you encouraged to ask for a topic ban against me!). And anybody can take a look into your pass accounts (Ratel, OzOke, TwikleMeister, etc.). It is proverbial how you get involved in similar wars against other users in the past, same modus operandi: stressing and disparing user with PA's, references to his grammar, edit warring, in order to put them out of your way. Yes Jabbsworth of course you believe that you are the reasonable guy as well as you also think that "nazi euthanasia started with reasonable premises" as the first murder was commited against a boy "born blind, ill and idiot" (sic!). -- ClaudioSantos¿? 00:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't just think I am the victim here, I'm sure of it! Jabbsworth (talk) 00:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, therefore so few minutes later you disqualified another user's (Hemshaw) comment tagging it as "ridiculous" -- ClaudioSantos¿? 02:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- To both of you (J and CS) -
- At this point, you're both behaving disruptively both here and elsewhere. Again - please calm down and knock it off while this is being discussed. You're both approaching the normal blockable point for disruption.
- Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't just think I am the victim here, I'm sure of it! Jabbsworth (talk) 00:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, Jabbswroth you think that you are the victim here. You Jabbsworth in two weeks got involved in two wars with two different users (and NotBW used to be your wikifriend who you encouraged to ask for a topic ban against me!). And anybody can take a look into your pass accounts (Ratel, OzOke, TwikleMeister, etc.). It is proverbial how you get involved in similar wars against other users in the past, same modus operandi: stressing and disparing user with PA's, references to his grammar, edit warring, in order to put them out of your way. Yes Jabbsworth of course you believe that you are the reasonable guy as well as you also think that "nazi euthanasia started with reasonable premises" as the first murder was commited against a boy "born blind, ill and idiot" (sic!). -- ClaudioSantos¿? 00:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're cherry picking comments off talk pages, out of context, which is typical. Anyone interested enough in this subsection is advised to look at the edit histories and talk pages of Suicide bag and Exit International to see how User:ClaudioSantos and User:Night of the Big Wind are tag-teaming to revert and destroy perfectly good articles, mainly because I am trying to expand them. They have added no data to these articles, merely tried to remove information (cited to RSes). This kind of battleground activity should be strongly discouraged. Jabbsworth (talk) 00:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Please George for the sake of objectivity, show me clearly where did I allegdely edited disruptively at AFD Richard Jenne or here, and why it is understood as disruption. I have kept very cautious at AFD Richard Jenne referring solely to arguments. And here, I do not understand if you mean that notifying PAs and provocations here is a disruption, while it is the legitime and appropiate place to do so, precisely to avoid reply PAs and provocation elsewhere. Am I wrong? What should I do if the provocatioons and PAs continue? Should I keep silence? Is it drisputive to ask this? -- ClaudioSantos¿? 04:32, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the list would be the majority of edits you made responding to or interacting with Jabbsworth. Pretty much every response you've done in the last several days. If you think you're being reasonable in the way you are handling this, you are missing something fundamental about assessing your own behavior, and your competence to keep editing Wikipedia at all is in question.
- Please stop it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:02, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Quite easy and quite unfair to accuse someone saying "the majority" because "yes". If you think you're being unbiased, fair and reasonable in the way you are handling and judging this, you are missing something fundamental. Therefore I will voluntarily ban me of any further interaction with you George. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 07:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Recommendation: block Jabbsworth for block evasion and other abusive sockpuppetry, temporary topic ban for others
While Jabbsworth (talk · contribs) was deemed to have had a legitimate reason for sockpuppetry on his second case involving TickleMeister (talk · contribs), it begs the question of the account ever having been legitimate at all. As the account was created less than 48 hours after Ratel was blocked for sockpuppetry, the TickleMeister account was always a block-evading sockpuppet, never eligible for any unblock on the basis of additional future sockpuppetry.
Even the first TickleMeister sockpuppetry case rings of habitual abusive sockpuppetry. A new account AllYrBaseRbelongUs (talk · contribs) was created on July 27, 2010. The following day, TickleMeister tried to negotiate his departure in exchange for an improper external link. I suggest that there is sufficient evidence of abusive sockpuppetry and block evasion to block Jabbsworth (talk · contribs) at the minimum. I am unsure if this is a matter for more stringent action.
As for any other editors who have engaged in edit warring on Euthenasia-related articles during this maelstrom, they should be encouraged to accept a voluntary topic ban of sufficient duration to allow tempers to cool. (The 90 day period seems to be a good ballpark figure.) Should the relevant editors accept the topic ban, page protection should be reviewed.Novangelis (talk) 01:55, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I have had behind the scenes negotiations with Arbcom on this issue, and some serious stalking issues are involved, unrelated to any of the articles under discussion. You are not privy to what was discussed, so your call for a ban is completely ill-advised. Nor is it part of the current discussion either. I believe you have written to admin Georgewilliamherbert by email in an effort to lobby to get me banned because of your long history of wp:OWN at aspartame and related articles. I have deliberately kept away from aspartame and aspartame controversy because of the hostile atmosphere there, which does not allow any editing that is not favorable to a product with which some editors have intense hidden COI issues (which I raised here at ANI, see log). In fact, so much well sourced data was excluded from those articles that all the excluded data had to be moved to another wiki, namely SourceWatch, see aspartame. Readers please note, almost all data on that linked page was excluded by user Novangelis from the wikipedia page. IMO your input here amounts to wikistalking and harassment. Jabbsworth (talk) 02:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Your baiting me will not work. I seriously doubt that ArbCom ever approved your creating the TickleMeister account two days after you were blocked for sockpuppetry in a !vote as Ratel/Unit5. If I'm wrong, ArbCom can correct me.Novangelis (talk) 03:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- It's not meant to bait you. I'm defending myself with the truth. Let others see what you have done at the aspartame articles, and look at the screeds of excluded data, and decide themselves. If the cap fits, wear it. As for Ticklemeister, as I said you are poking your nose in something you know nothing about, and I'm not going into all the private details on this forum. Drop it. Jabbsworth (talk) 03:10, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- On point - and please stay on point, everyone - Jabbsworth seems (to me) to be moderately confrontational but not disruptive in general in other areas now, outside the conflict with CS. The former sockpuppetry has been reviewed, acted upon, and the current account's status reflects admin and arbcom's most recent judgements in this matter. There's no call to re-re-examine those prior incidents per se.
- If there is a broader pattern of disruption outside the disagreements with CS, that rises to the level of administrator attention, it will become evident shortly after the topic and interaction ban becomes effective.
- People are surely aware of the history and will be closely scrutinizing all editors involved for some time.
- Other admins may see this differently, but I am not willing to act based on the current situation (beyond the in-discussion disruption mentioned in my last message above, and more generally the topic ban which is the focal point of the current disruption). Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- As I said above, it seems for me that you are biased George. The interchange between Jabbsworth and NotBW, where Jabbsworth has been calling NotBW "risible","pathetic","pointless","if you do not like me then stay away from the articles I built", "insane point of view", "bloody minded", etc. and where two articles Exit international and Suicide Bag were involved in edit wars and had to be protected, evidently that denies your point of view George. Jabbsworth is currently behaving very disruptive and extremely agressive with other user than me. And I do not mean to be rude by saying this: but as long as you do not see this, you are encouraging his disuprtive behaviour. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 04:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Also I think the Arbcom procces should be published and publicly scrutined, as the unblock affects a lot of users who has been affected by the serious disruptions provoked by Jabbsworth sockpuppetry. Prime facie wikipedia clearly claims that sockpuppetry is a serious breach against community trust. Perhaps the lack of clearness is the reason that I find very difficult to believe that this sockpuppetry, clearly used solely to evade a block of 55 hours and to edit warring could be allegedly an attempt to avoid stalking. Why then he returned with his sockpuppets precisely to the article (Aspartame) where he was being stalked, if he was so wishful to not be identified and stalked?. Also I do not understand how it is allowed to someone to use 6 times sockpuppet even for avoid wikistalking. Why did not he warned the arbcom about the stalking before? why just wait until the 6 time? I At any rate, community deserves to know the process as the unblock affects the trust of the community. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 05:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- As I said above, it seems for me that you are biased George. The interchange between Jabbsworth and NotBW, where Jabbsworth has been calling NotBW "risible","pathetic","pointless","if you do not like me then stay away from the articles I built", "insane point of view", "bloody minded", etc. and where two articles Exit international and Suicide Bag were involved in edit wars and had to be protected, evidently that denies your point of view George. Jabbsworth is currently behaving very disruptive and extremely agressive with other user than me. And I do not mean to be rude by saying this: but as long as you do not see this, you are encouraging his disuprtive behaviour. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 04:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just a question: who consider you to be "the others". I guess Claudio, me and several others? Night of the Big Wind talk 07:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Tokerdesigner, again
I've had the misfortune to get embroiled in monitoring Tokerdesigner (talk · contribs), who I recently blocked for a month due to a serious failure to disengage from mutilatio ex equus mortis. It appears that Tokerdesigner has, in a completely unsurprising move, chosen to use his month off to compile yet another list of injustices on his talk page. Could someone who has sensibly remained uninvolved have a look and decide what, if anything, needs done about this? Cheers. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 10:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Dude is paranoid, obviously. At this point, even a brief skim though his contribs makes it abundantly clear that the (drug addled?) person behind he username is basically unfit to edit constructively here. I wish it weren't so, but this guy has been given every opportunity and then some. Increase the block to indef and walk away.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 11:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)- ...but MfD the user page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- mutilatio ex equus mortis, from the people that brought you Romanes eunt domus. People, if you are going to make up fake Latinisms, at least try to make them grammatically correct. – ukexpat (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Nil illigitimo clockwork, costus illigitimus (I'm sure you get the gist lol) Mjroots (talk) 19:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- The whole fun of pidgin Latin is to mutilate it. :) Nevertheless, I'm not entirely comfortable with increasing the block myself right now. If the soapboxing in question gets to Biblical proportions like the last one then so be it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 16:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I fully support an indef block on Tokerdesigner. He seems incapable of comprehending and abiding by our content policies if they happen to contradict his own, shall we say... unique ideas about the proper way to smoke pot. This has been going on for years now and is unlikely to ever stop. I have been involved ina content dispute with him in the past and so will have to recuse myself from admin action here, but hopefully someone will step up and take the necessary action. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- *cough*At least the editor didn't print a book with an incorrect Latin title. ;) - SudoGhost 17:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Latine dictum, sit altum videtur. Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 18:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Tokerdesigner's soapboxing is clearly not going to stop. I suppose I should be flattered to not be considered a sockpuppet in his recent user talk page screed despite having blocked him for a week last month. I'd support an indefinite block and revocation of his user talk page privileges (since he's just using that page to continue the same behavior that got him blocked). I'd do it myself, really, I don't think anything I've done should make me involved. As long as nobody has a reasonable objection or expectation that he'll suddenly change. -- Atama頭 18:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Latine dictum, sit altum videtur. Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 18:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- mutilatio ex equus mortis, from the people that brought you Romanes eunt domus. People, if you are going to make up fake Latinisms, at least try to make them grammatically correct. – ukexpat (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- ...but MfD the user page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Is it worth considering a topic ban on cannabis related topics, rather than an indef? How are his contributions in other areas? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Nonexistent. This is an WP:SPA, every edit I've looked at, going back several years is aimed at promoting his philosophies about safe pot smoking and/or discouraging the use of cigarettes or joints. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- These are his article edits not related to cannabis, out of all of his non-deleted edits:
All non-cannabis article space edits
|
---|
|
- Out of 1,330 edits, 37 of them were to articles that weren't related to cannabis. (There were also a handful of talk page edits to non-cannabis topics also but I didn't bother to document them.) The majority of those edits were minor. It has been 5 months since his last non-cannabis edit. It's pretty safe to say that he is a single-purpose editor and a topic ban would be a de facto site ban. -- Atama頭 21:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you. It's been a while, but that he has contributed to other types of articles indicates that there may be some point to topic banning rather than just outright banning / blocking him. Largely SPA, but not entirely. His problems seem related to the topic.
- He might chose to walk away from other topics if topic banned, but perhaps a mid-term topic ban (1 month? 3 months?) with a community review to be based on his contibutions elsewhere in the meantime? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I guess a topic ban can be attempted, maybe he'll work on music-related articles. That seems to be the only topic that he has made any real substantial contribution to that isn't cannabis-related. I'll note that even many of those edits seem to have a good deal of WP:OR in them, which is part of the problem that he has had with his cannabis-related work also. If he is banned, and violates the ban (as I would predict he would) then it would probably just lead to an indefinite block anyway. -- Atama頭 23:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Out of 1,330 edits, 37 of them were to articles that weren't related to cannabis. (There were also a handful of talk page edits to non-cannabis topics also but I didn't bother to document them.) The majority of those edits were minor. It has been 5 months since his last non-cannabis edit. It's pretty safe to say that he is a single-purpose editor and a topic ban would be a de facto site ban. -- Atama頭 21:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- This has suddenly changed to an SPA issue? Would that address the topic of this thread which is epic soapboxing and incivility? Mjpresson (talk) 23:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, because if an editor is causing trouble that is exclusive to a particular topic area, sometimes they can be productive outside of the area, that's the whole point of having topic bans. A ban is easier to support if we can expect that the editor could be productive elsewhere, and one way to show the possibility of that is to show what work they've done on other topics (a real SPA would never have had any activity anywhere else). As I said, though, my experiences don't make me optimistic about the potential for the topic ban to work, but violating a topic ban would lead to an indefinite block anyway, so either way we can stop the disruption. -- Atama頭 00:44, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- This has suddenly changed to an SPA issue? Would that address the topic of this thread which is epic soapboxing and incivility? Mjpresson (talk) 23:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support A topic ban or indef block. Looking over his contributions I think he does more harm than good to project. A topic ban will, in my opinion, probably lead to a future indef block but if we want to be conservative then that would be the way to go. Noformation Talk 00:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- My only concern with a topic ban is that his problem appears to be... well, um... mental. I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist, but it seems obvious that the guy is slightly unstable, and probably suffers from paranoia problems (which, as far as I understand, is a possible side effect of smoking too much reefer). I don't say that to disparage the guy, but to make the point that even if he complies with the topic ban (which I'm guessing will be a large "if") and moves to another area, all we'll be doing is spreading the problem around to other areas. That being said, I'm not adamantly against letting the block expire and enacting a topic ban, and I'm certainly willing to give an editor every possibility (to the point of slight unreasonableness, actually), but I'd hate to see him running around stirring up shit and driving otherwise productive editors away before we really give up on him.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- This isn't entirely appropriate as a line of discussion. If there's a topic ban from the community, they can stop editing or find other areas to productively edit. If they edit disruptively in other areas then that's handled. The objective of the topic ban is to handle the glaring problem but leave open a path to recovery and redemption, if they can move into a productive editing mode. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Right... like I said, I'm not adamantly against the topic ban idea. Go ahead and try it. <shrug> I'll just hang on to my "I told ya so" for later, is all.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 02:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Right... like I said, I'm not adamantly against the topic ban idea. Go ahead and try it. <shrug> I'll just hang on to my "I told ya so" for later, is all.
- Support - I have little confidence that it will work, since he's more a SPA than not, but it's worth a try. If he is topic banned, his user page needs to be cleared of all cannabis-related material. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support - I'd already said that a topic ban might be worth an attempt, but I suppose I might as well make a formal approval of the idea. -- Atama頭 07:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support, myself being one of his obsessions. Mjpresson (talk) 00:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support, but not really. If it's going to be a topic ban, I suggest it be a "sudden death" style ban. Just one violation and an indef block is applied. This should apply equally to article space, talk pages, and his own user space, which should be purged of all the ranting an raving that is currently collected there as part of his soapboxing crusade. I predict he will rapidly violate any such topic ban and will end up blocked anyway, so what the hell. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Thread restored per request. Still unresolved and poll ongoing. CycloneGU (talk) 00:31, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support — Indef block, or a topic ban if there is no consensus for an indef block. I suggest we avoid using words that refer to the editor's mental state or possible drug use in this thread. EdJohnston (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Anders Behring Breivik
Anders Behring Breivik (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
User: Johnmylove has now re-inserted the same claim that Anders Behring Breivik is a hindoo a number of times, and has breached 3RR,
[[47]]
[[48]]
[[49]]
[[50]]
There seem to be other instances of this hindoo POV pushing, but I won’t list them.
Added to this is that he claims its well sourced when (as far as I can see) only one (possible not RS) source makes the claim. I asked the user to take this to the talk page and informed him that he was in danger of breeching 3RR [[51]] the reposes was to accuse me of having a personal agenda [[52]].Slatersteven (talk) 16:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Since launching this he has reverted again [[53]].Slatersteven (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- There does appear to be a misrepresentation by Johnmylove as to what the sources he cites actually state. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 16:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
I have well sourced material...Respected administrator, I would like you to read the source well yourself and provide whether the particular information is correct or not AS the User:Slatersteven seem to have remove my material again and again by having different accounts on wikipedia...I want to you take severe action against User:Slatersteven for trying to push personal agenda on the site. I would not mind editing the articles as long as I have the proof and well sourced material. Thank you --Johnmylove (talk) 16:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- That is a PA, and if you have evidacne for the claim I susgest you raise an SPA.Slatersteven (talk) 16:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- The 'source' is an anti-Hindu website, with no evidence of any credibility whatsoever. Not that this matters, given WP:3RR policy, and your personal attack above. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:59, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- The sources are not reliable; this is disrupting Wikipedia, damaging a BLP, and a very high visibility current events related article. I have left a final warning for Johnmylove for disruption. Further activity along these lines will result in a block. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:42, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- They're not the only one using non-RS on that high-vis BLP. That's why I wish the BLP1E redirect here hadn't been undone. We should be covering the event, not the person. Chzz ► 19:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- There really should be a note added to BLP1E enforcing that it is doubly important when it come to white supremacists, Scientologists, Republicans et cetera. These Internet Sleuth Squad character profiles are well beyond a joke now. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 20:15, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed; as one user put it on the talk page, This article takes any flimsy claim from any newspaper and prints it as gospel. Trying to moderate it in any way is futile. Trying to do any kind of reasobable editing of this article would result in deleting 95% of it..
- It's "trial by Wikipedia".
- Right now, on the talk, is an extensive discussion about whether or not this living person is insane - not referring to any RS, or anything - just, a lovely generic chat about this person, throwing in opinions. And that's not random, new editors; it's people who really should know better.
- These kinds of gross BLP violation should be dealt with - and that simply is not happening. I'd hat/remove comments on the talk, and I'd edit the article to remove some of the speculative stuff, but I know from experience that won't be effective. Chzz ► 21:40, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Quit bitchin' about it and go edit the article.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)- I've edited it twice as much as you [54]. How 'bout we quit talkin' 'bout users, and start a-talkin' 'bout content instead? Chzz ► 01:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Quit bitchin' about it and go edit the article.
- There really should be a note added to BLP1E enforcing that it is doubly important when it come to white supremacists, Scientologists, Republicans et cetera. These Internet Sleuth Squad character profiles are well beyond a joke now. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 20:15, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- Anders Behring Breivik [...] is a Norwegian right-wing extremist[7] - ref is [55], which does not use the word "extremist" at all...
- ...and the confessed perpetrator[8][9] of the July 22, 2011 Norway attacks, with 172 victims of whom 76 died.[10][11]
- First ref says, "at least 96 people were injured" and avoids giving deaths; "Police on Monday revised down the number killed on Utoeya, citing difficulties in gathering information".
- The terrorist attacks included detonating a car bomb in downtown Oslo, Norway, near the offices of the Prime Minister, killing eight and wounding 26. - new numbers again. Unreferenced.
- This was followed by a mass shooting on the nearby island of Utøya, where he attacked teenagers attending a Norwegian Labour Party youth camp, killing 68 and wounding 66.
- Again, numbers unrefereneced.
- And, if this is a bio, is this all appropriate in the lede? Fair balance? Oh, but, he is only known for one thing?
- "Why is this on ANI? 'coz it's a BLP, and needs admin attention. Chzz ► 05:07, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yup. The article is a mess. Everyone piles in with their 'no true Scotsman' arguments, and their gratuitous coatracking of everything from Darwinism to Hinduism. I've visited this festering pile of POV every so often to try and at least make it stink a little less, but eventually the stench overcomes me. I think that this article probably indicates the limit of what the Wikipedia methodology is capable of - or more accurately, it shows what happens when you go beyond the limits. Maybe we need to take WP:NOTNEWS a little more literally, and not report on anything for a month after it happens... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- If there's any consolation, current news events are one of the few areas where Wikipedia usually isn't the top Google hit for a particular subject. By the time the grownups have turned their attentions elsewhere we've normally expunged the worst of a given article. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 09:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- What's a good way to see page view stats? I have a feeling that, despite not being at the top of Google, a majority of page views for unfolding news events occurs as they unfold and not 6 months from now when the dust has settled and we can actually start making a reference worthy article out of this.Griswaldo (talk) 01:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's be WP:ITN's fault then. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 08:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Insertion of Foul and Abusive words and repeated vandalism on Mohun Bagan AC
Dear Admin, This is nothing new but it is really reaching its limit. For the past few days user 14.96.114.8 has been continually been editing the article on Mohun Bagan AC by inserting foul and slang words inside the article. plz feel free to verify the same from the user's profile as logs of only insertion of inappropriate and racial slurs will show that his foremost object of visiting Wikipedia is to vandalise its property. User 115.242.174.192 has been mass erasing data from the same article. again plz verify the same. Hope you will do the needful and protect wikipedia. thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by S.sinha04 (talk • contribs) 06:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- What do those words mean exactly? As a non speaker of the language it's hard to gauge whether it's vandalism or not. Noformation Talk 09:02, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The IP has made precisely 3 edits. The first may or may not be problematic, the second appears to be an unsourced change, which would be hard to call vandalism, and the third edit is possibly problematic. I tried to use Google translate, which said it was in Italian then promptly failed to provide a translation. Unless the OP tells us which language this is, there's not much we can do, even if the editing is problematic. Mjroots (talk) 14:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- The IP is located in Andra Pradesh India, so one of two languages seems right, either Telugu or Sanskrit.
I checked some of the text in a Sanskrit dictionary | here and got some matches, but nothing coherent. We may need a native reader / speaker of Sanskrit (or Telugu). @-Kosh► Talk to the Vorlons►Markab-@ 18:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Um, I don't believe there are any living native readers or speakers of Sanskrit. :) The Mark of the Beast (talk) 20:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think they're mostly names actually -though I'm not to sure about "Khanki". Could the complainant tell us what he thinks the words are and what he thinks they mean?Fainites barleyscribs 22:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Just noticed the IP hasn't been notified. Will do that now.Fainites barleyscribs 16:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think they're mostly names actually -though I'm not to sure about "Khanki". Could the complainant tell us what he thinks the words are and what he thinks they mean?Fainites barleyscribs 22:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Um, I don't believe there are any living native readers or speakers of Sanskrit. :) The Mark of the Beast (talk) 20:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Personal Attacks, Harrassing Behaviour, inappropriate warnings and inappropriate use of Twinkle by User:FaktneviM
FaktneviM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been harassing User:Jeffro77 incessantly on Jeffro77's talkpage over the last couple of days, apparently as a result of a content dispute elsewhere. I stepped in yesterday as a relatively uninvolved third party and tried to get FaktneviM to back off. That failed, and he is now edit-warring with me on my own talk page.
- Warnings given to FaktneviM
- 3RR: [56] by User:Bidgee
- Harass4im: [57] by User:Danjel (me)
- Harass3: [58] by User:Danjel (me)
- Personal Attacks & Inappropriate Warnings (non-template message): [59] by User:Jeffro77
- Refactoring/Editing other users' comments (non-template message): [60]
- Personal Attacks/Harassment on User:Jeffro77
Jeffro77 has been tremendously patient in dealing with FaktneviM on his talkpage. There is a long threaded discussion at Jeffro77's talkpage which is littered with personal attacks. First, there are two inappropriate warning templates: for personal attacks [diff: [61]] and for promotional material [diff: [62]]. Later Jeffro is accused of being a "frivolous" hypocrite [diff: [63]]. A barnstar was given, then revoked [diff: [64]]. FaktneviM has also edited Jeffro77's content, requiring Jeffro77 to undo the changes [diff: [65]]. I would go on, but it should be pretty clear that Jeffro77 is weathering a storm. The section on his talkpage stands for itself.
- Comment: It has been particularly frustrating trying to work with FaktneviM. I'm aware there's a language issue, but it is not the underlying cause of the problem here. For transparency, the initial content dispute is located at Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses#Jesus reference mislead. FaktneviM has also claimed that the Userboxes on my User page constitute "preaching", "offensive, uncivil, hatred, lofty and other very bad things", "hatred and pride" and "bombing with propaganda, spreading hatred thoughts and intolerance".--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- He just doesn't seem to understand[66] (I don't mean the language difference).--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- On 26 July, FaktneviM also lodged a fraudulent complaint against me at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism[67]. He did not advise me that he had lodged the complaint. Unsurprisingly, it was summarily dismissed as unactionable.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- 3RR on my talkpage
FaktneviM is now engaging in an edit war with me on my talkpage.
Revert 1: [68] Revert 2: [69] Revert 3: [70] Revert 4: [71]
...and an inappropriate warning: [72]
He is aware of WP:OWNTALK. It has been mentioned to him frequently, for example [diff: [73]].
- More than Language Background other than English issues
While I'm conscious that there are some clear issues of literacy/fluency in written English, I think this goes beyond that. This is a matter of maturity and an inability to conform with some pretty basic rules for collaborative conduct on wikipedia. If there is anyone who can speak Czech (?), then by all means see if you can get some sense out of this situation. -danjel (talk to me) 11:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I also warned FaktneviM about his restoring of comments removed by Jeffro77 on his user talk page but has clearly ignored the warning given. Bidgee (talk) 11:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
BWilkins has given another warning as an uninvolved admin. If this starts again I'm sure someone will block, but for now let's hope that settles at least the user talk warring. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 12:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
+++++
Hello all. I just firstly (and very last too) read this ´page´ (I try to avoid perfect adjective what I recently thinking about this all).
I could fully and sincerely confirm all, what is stated here, is truth. That is the one side. Reverse side of the situation is: These all "diffs" just show for me another evidence and typical example ´How Wikipedia´s editors, not only admins (but all, in general) ´pluck things out of context´. I don´t expect you read all that "stories" (I mean ... all topics, .... with examining whole text ... not only one diff out of context). But consider, I now seen again how this all society and communion is full of hypocrites and evil-doers. If you would like, ... block me! .... I will be free again of this mock encyclopedia. I have no interests lost another expensive time and my weak mental health here anymore.
If Jeffro saying here, ´he is frustrated´, I have to say the same! We both are absolutely incompatible personalities as I speculated this reason on his talk page. Although, in the last discussion on his talk page, which is mentioned here ... We were not in a quarrel. It was partially most productive talk, which we both have so far! I also pleased him several times for deleting private link, which he used only! for purpose to damage my interests. Reason was NOT, as he claimed - avoiding misleading others. That was only repeatedly said excuse. In fact, NOBODY, excluding me, and people to whom I would like to tell them, ... Nobody other has right to know my personal values ... on ARTICLE TALK! Jeffro used this tactic with the link for continuing in attacking.
I also call for Danjel´s conscience (NOT ONLY his) in contact with me. User_talk:FaktneviM#At_minimum
See for more ... my User Page, ... my Talk Page
But I will not responding anymore. (Maybe only in case of some very big + well-mind surprise)
--Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 05:25, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
+++++
- The link to which FaktneviM refers was in this edit at Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses. The context for the link (a diff from a Wikipedia subpage, and not a 'private' page) was also provided.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You should be ashamed for that. I said it already in a talk, but again. You should show big shame for that. Very bad from you, indeed. Shame you! --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 11:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- FaktneviM has now requested speedy deletion of all of his/her user subpages, including that one. I have complied with the request, as it is policy that users can have their own subpages deleted on request, but I do wonder why that request has come now. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I wanted to finish my Wikipedia account some time before these problems starts. However, problems with my pages was like catalyst for me and I had to (in fact, I hadn´t, but I want) end all my activities vigorously and conclusively. For that aim was some cleaning of my pages quite useful. --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 11:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
FaktneviM's posts to Jeffro77's talk page have been absurdly persistent and unconstructive. At first I though that the solution would be a ban from editing that page, but looking at other pages I see that the problem goes much further and deeper than that. FaktneviM has also started harassing Danjel, following that user's good faith attempt to help. FaktneviM has also responded to good faith and perfectly civil posts from another editor at Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses in a paranoid manner, evidently seeing a personal attack where none was intended or given. He/she has a history of responding angrily and uncivilly to any editor who expresses a view he/she doesn't agree with, using such language as "stupidity, pride and nasty behavior", "despicable", and so on. It seems to me that the editor has serious problems with trying to collaborate with other editors. There are also other serious problems, such as the editor's apparent inability to see that his/her belief that something is The Truth is not a valid criterion for how an article should be edited, repeated use of inappropriate warning templates in a vindictive manner, etc etc. I am not sure that the editor will ever be capable of fitting into Wikipedia's methods. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- <blockquote>FaktneviM has also started harassing Danjel, following that user's good faith attempt to help.</blockquote>....Please. Show me at least ONE act from Danjel, which you consider as ´good will´. I felt (+and history revision of my talk page, +and his talk revisions history page, ... both prove it clearly) only bad-will. Nothing, what I recognize as normal behavior if someone wants tell me something. He was clearly bad+bad+bad+bad. See that history revisions carefully. Nothing positive from him. Another lies (as good will from other editors on Article Talk page - Where? That was only provoking me and personal attacks. Tell me - What was at least ´little good´ there. Again. Nothing. --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 11:33, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I read some of that again and probably some cleaning should be useful. Problem is, that, when I tried to change culture of Wikiproject members discussion,-including me, I was always taken aback and frustrated, because not-wise Ẅikipedia rules do not allow edit comments to (something like general cleanup of quality talking) for example very suitable for most of WikiProject sites discussion. But when I tried to change it, always someone Undid that. Because Wikipedia rules are so rigid, and goes against sense of civility. I still hope ´my cleaning plans´, which every time someone stop will fulfill someone other (for example here) . But generally, for this rigid encyclopedia is no hope for future.<blockquote> if other editors agree, I ''could'' clean up the thread somewhat.--AuthorityTam</blockquote>. It´s funny that if I tried several times same changes, always were opposite and hatred. Just absurd encyclopedia with irrational procedures and moreover different rules for different wikipedians. Just absurd. And as Jeffro saying with his favorite idiom,- "It´s irrelevant". So bye. --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 11:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- FakteviM, It sounds like you want to make a Right to Vanish request. Follow the methodology on the page and don't log in, don't think about this account/wiki, don't respond. The thread will die of old age and get forgotten. Hasteur (talk) 12:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, but I am not sure what I really want. Surely I leave from -WikiProject Jehovah´s Witnesses, and all other project, where I was active too (-Christianity, -Latter Day Saint movement), -several non-religious related topics, which I previously edited. This probably in summary results I leave from English part of Wikipedia. Still my "global account" have 51 living accounts, in 8 I was actively involved). Since I leave English part, I´ll probably go to my home wiki after return from wikibreak, and other wikis, which seems me much normal and productive, than here. I am quite convinced, that main problems were not in language. That´s get even worse. But mainly about community, which is hardly to comprehend for me and I am not willing to accept hypocrite rules specific for English, which do against sense of that recommendations. Other problems with editors, with which I was not able to mutually cooperate productively. Even with efforts was rather disruptive for me and perhaps for them too, and in summary, it was lost of time and energy. Gain of experiences seems quite good, but for me is ´too low reward´. In this sense, I suppose, "Right to Vanish" will be applied on English only and not globally for all wikis. Or reversely? Other option I´ll fully retire from all WikiMedia projects. Who knows? --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 13:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Disruptive editing - deleting links without consensus
I wish to report MatthiasHuehr (talk · contribs) for persistently removing external links from articles, either with no explanation or with insufficient reason, refusing to enter into discussion and achieve consensus, despite being asked or warned accordingly. Notices in connexion with this have been posted on his talk page here, but note that he has deleted some, including the standard notice about this incident, so you have to also examine the page history. Two latest examples of this disruption and attempt to engage in edit warring are at Streckelsberg and Birnen, Bohnen und Speck. It should be noted in both these examples that there is evidence that he may also be continuing his disruption by logging in as User:212.185.54.2 to disguise his activity as there is a similar pattern of edits. --Bermicourt (talk) 17:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Bermicourt, you told MatthiasHuehr here that this issue has been discussed at WP:Third opinion. Could you please provide a link to that discussion? Thank you. — Satori Son 18:32, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry Satori. It's here where you can see the background and the response which supports the notion that the link was reasonable. But no input from MatthiasHuehr - he just waited awhile and started the process again. I don't feel particularly strongly about these links - if there's a consensus following discussion that they should be deleted, then fine. But this editor doesn't engage, he just carries on deleting. Check out his contribution history and I think you will see more of the same. --Bermicourt (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I See at the repeated linking to such websites as an abuse.
Marions-kochbuch.de has to be in Germany is anything but the reputation of a reputable website. The operators make with their business practices outlawed in Germany media money animated by people supposedly free content to use them and then to sue in court. I have a report from the German TV reported as a reference. Links to such websites do not belong in the Wikipedia it. The other link on page, which aims to promote holiday apartment Engen as a business purpose. Here we have an economic interest, which uses Wikipedia as a link farm in order to promote these services. The linked pages exist only in English because the two sides in the German Wikipedia Rules should not be linked. The interest in the restoration of links is therefore for me more than serious.--MatthiasHuehr
- Why didn't you say so earlier? Your previous reason for removing the links was "not in English". If your new reason is to be taken seriously, why did you remove links to other sites too? Regardless of what the reason is, I think a little more AGF would be appropriate: "deleting comments from user that spamed seo-links in many articles" is not appropriate, any more than accusing somebody of using en.wikipedia as a linkfarm by, err, updating an article about a German recipe with a link to a German recipe webpage, or updating a German geographical article with a link to a page (on a different site) about that location... a definition of "SEO" or "linkfarming" so wide that it includes practically every good-faith EL on wikipedia.
- (Disclaimer: I'm the person who gave the original 3O) bobrayner (talk) 19:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
There are many reasons to delete these links ... PS Bermicourt understand German --MatthiasHuehr —Preceding undated comment added 19:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC).
- Among those "many" reasons, could you give a reason which is valid? I don't think the one about linkspam can be taken seriously, nor the "not in english" one. Is there some other reason which actually justifies this editwarring? I think it might be better to discuss on talkpages, rather than hammer the revert button. bobrayner (talk) 19:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- What's wrong with the "not in English"? This guideline, Wikipedia:External links#Non-English-language content, would seem to disagree. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:33, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- That guideline says "strongly preferred". Alas, Birnen, Bohnen und Speck recipes on the intertubes are mostly in German rather than English. Nonetheless, when an English alternative was found (hosted on the same site), MatthiasHuehr kept on removing it anyway, with new justifications - mostly linkspam, SEO, unreliable source &c and even "in the link is the recipe, not nececarry to tlink this". And then after a few reverts, a mysterious IP came along and performed exactly the same edit with no summary. That IP also removed a perfectly good link from Streckelsberg; MatthiasHuehr had removed that link repeatedly and was on 3RR. bobrayner (talk) 02:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sometimes, because of the nature of the subject, there are only German links. If we delete them willy-nilly we will lose a lot of useful information for those able to read them (albeit perhaps with a translation tool).
- The key point here is that Matthias ruthlessly and repeatedly deletes links without consensus or engagement. You get no response either on his page or the talk page to open up a dialogue in a rational way. He won't play by the Wiki rules. --Bermicourt (talk) 06:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- That guideline says "strongly preferred". Alas, Birnen, Bohnen und Speck recipes on the intertubes are mostly in German rather than English. Nonetheless, when an English alternative was found (hosted on the same site), MatthiasHuehr kept on removing it anyway, with new justifications - mostly linkspam, SEO, unreliable source &c and even "in the link is the recipe, not nececarry to tlink this". And then after a few reverts, a mysterious IP came along and performed exactly the same edit with no summary. That IP also removed a perfectly good link from Streckelsberg; MatthiasHuehr had removed that link repeatedly and was on 3RR. bobrayner (talk) 02:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- What's wrong with the "not in English"? This guideline, Wikipedia:External links#Non-English-language content, would seem to disagree. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:33, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Disturbing shoot first policy
I am seriously concerned about the block that was issued for 206.190.68.46 back in January. Since when does WP policy have us blocking IPs for a single edit, that wasn't even close to be serious vandalism. It was simply the addition of unsourced information, which happens all the time. We should be more welcoming to IPs, and not "shoot first", assuming bad faith. If you check the edit history of this IP, it is a public IP, and all most all of the edits have been helpful. I just wanted to raise this issue, since it frequent affects how I edit, since I spend much of my time in coffee shops, airports, etc. Before you tell me to try "getting an account", please cite the WP policy that requires this. Thanks! 206.190.68.46 (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and yes, I realize this is a bit stale, but I just saw the message, and found it disturbing. 206.190.68.46 (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- If you know the block was not directed at you, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. While there are cases of worse abuse, it is not uncommon for shared IPs to be blocked because they are such easy targets of abuse. –MuZemike 19:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- It would be best to contact the admin who applied the block and ask him why, rather than bringing it to a forum such as this. Having said that, in the one edit that led to the block, the IP signed the comment using an administrator's username (User:Resolute, who was the blocking admin). Deceitfully trying to use the identity of an admin seems like a blockable offense to me. Peacock (talk)
- It was hardly a "single edit" that led to the block. There was a pattern of persistent addition of the same text from multiple IPs; an immediate warning was appropriate for this edit to Craig MacTavish, because it indicated the same person was editing again, albeit from a different IP. When they made another malicious edit, the block was in order.
- Policy does not require you to get an account. However, the blocking policy means that all users of an IP may have to suffer for the actions of one malicious user of the IP. (If malicious users keep getting the IP of your favorite coffee shop blocked, you may just have to pick a higher-brow coffee shop to edit from. :) ) We try to limit or mitigate collateral damage with those blocks, but it can't always be avoided. —C.Fred (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- How fortuitous that I just happened to see this thread. Based on the edit history of the Craig MacTavish article, the same unsourced, BLP violating content was being added repeatedly by a slew of IP addresses. I jumped directly to the L4 warning for this IP address on the belief that it was a single IP hopping vandal, then blocked when that person followed up with a spurious warning to another editor while spoofing my name. That was six months ago, and to the current editor on that IP, removing the old notices are certainly fair game. Regards, Resolute 20:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. The person in question had been edit warring. The fact that they were using different IP addresses each time should not give them a protection from being blocked that would not have been afforded to someone using a single IP address or a registered account, and when they then started impersonating another user the block was fully justified. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- (resp to IP's opening statement) If you're too lazy to create an account? that's your problem, not ours. GoodDay (talk) 23:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- That wasn't called for. The IP is correct, they do not have to create an account. But if IP thinks we are obliged to permit IP to post as an IP, when that address is being used inappropriately, IP is mistaken.--SPhilbrickT 00:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Seconding Sphilbrick. That was neither polite nor required, nor supported by policy or practice. IPs are important members of the community, and many many named editors spend time editing as an IP first. Treating them like people is as required as it is for "real" editors, as opposed to driving away potential content-builders. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 00:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Veteran IPs know the risk of not creating an account, such as in this situation. They needn't complain about anybody recommending they create an account. GoodDay (talk) 20:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- If he didn't know the risk, he does now -- the risk is exactly the same kind of dismissive condescension to which you just subjected him. In other words, the risk you are describing is your own behavior. I think you ought to strike the comment. causa sui (talk) 20:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Veteran IPs know the risk of not creating an account, such as in this situation. They needn't complain about anybody recommending they create an account. GoodDay (talk) 20:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Blocked while reporting a vandalism by User:Bokpasa.
Hello,
Since I asked the admin who blocked for some "clarifications" but that I got no answer, I'm reporting this issue on this board (note that this request isn't for contesting the blocking but to discuss an issue of vandalism) :
While reporting an ongoing vandalism on this board, another contributor, Jasper Deng, reported me (later) as being the vandal [74], after which I was blocked by Ioeth (I assume the good faith of both, but I think that Ioeth's action was a little bit precipitated and as a minimum of honesty Jasper Deng had to report both me and the involved IP, but he reported just me...).
Btw, if we take a look on the articles cited by Jasper Deng:
- Marinid dynasty, disruptive edits started on December 2010, the current version is the one edited by Bokpasa (no discussion, no justification, references deletion & OR). this edit's comment is particularly interesting.
- Almoravid dynasty: disruptive edits started on December 2010, same remark about the current version
- Same remarks about the articles Almohad caliphate and Saadi dynasty.
By the same way, it can easily be seen that I didn't add/remove information from these articles while reverting the IP's edits, I was just putting the article on its pre-vandalism version: [75] [76] [77].
But now since these pages are protected, Bokpasa has to be identified to edit them (as he's doing right now (can be seen on each article's history page), WP:DUCK!!). For information, this user is particularly known for his vandalism on Morocco related articles: [78][79] (you can easily see that he was blocked for disruptive edits on the same articles than right now).
Note that he's also blocked on ES.Wiki and FR.Wiki for excessive vandalism... on that same articles than here...
Also for information, these are some previous issues involving Bokpasa: History of Morocco, sections 7 to 16 of the article's TP (Bokpasa is signing here his messages MOI instead of his own username), Incident noticeboard, User:Bokpasa tendious editing and personal attacks.
Btw, Jasper Deng also referred to some "EW with some IP's", but I suppose that nor him nor Ioeth toke a look on the concerned entries (a simple section search with my username can give that): [80] [81] [82].
As I wrote on my TP, I don't contest my blocking, I just need some "clarifications" ;
My questions are:
- Can these articles be putted under their pre-EW form (2010/12 versions)? Or should we let Bokpasa act as he want?
- Can Bokpasa's act of contributing anonymously to avoid being blocked be considered as a kind of "Reverse Sockpuppetry", as he started to contribute with his own account after his IP range was blocked?
Thanks in advance for the answers.
Omar-Toons (talk) 01:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Why do you say you got no answer? You only asked about 5 hours before asking here and the admin involved seems to have gone inactive before you asked. It seems it would be more resonable to either wait longer or say you asked but haven't got an answer yet but it's only been 5 hours.I'm not sure what you mean by the 'pre-EW' point but if the article has had significant changes since December 2010, it's unlikely reversion to the December 2010 version is going to be justified, particularly not just because of the claim of a 8 month edit war. On the other hand, if an editor has recently came along and modified the article and these changes are disputed, it may be okay to revert (but probably not to edit war) these changes (even if the version you're reverting to is from December 2010) while they are discussed. BTW, I fail to see how you didn't add or remove info if you were reverting to an earlier version (whether or not that reversion was justified) unless only formatting or organisation changes had been made. Note that removing recently added or disputed info or re-adding recently removed info is clearly still removing/adding info. Nil Einne (talk) 04:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You were blocked because you violated the three-revert rule, which applies all the time unless you're reverting obvious vandalism, and the blocking admin most likely determined that it isn't the case here. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 05:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: You mean 29 hours? I didn't see that he wasn't active for more than 24 hours, that's why.
- @Penwhale: Right, as I said, I don't contest the blocking itself, I'm here to ask to stop Bokpasa's vandalism and POV (which is recurrent since december 2010 and which is highly contested as shown by the diffs I cited) as it is mentionned in my two questions.
- Omar-Toons (talk) 08:56, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I have left a message at his talk page. Let's see what he replies... - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 10:26, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Apologies I saw the date wrong. Nil Einne (talk) 10:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
74.178.219.79
This editor "74.178.219.79" has a history of adding unreferenced materials to television station articles, and generally disruptive edits. I am not aware of a previous block, if any, but this needs to stop. This IP is one of many who several of us believe are the same person doing the disruptive editing by IP hopping...see here for more. I am hoping that by taking the action here, that something will be done about this issue. The IP(s) never respond on their talk page. Almost all of this editor's edits have been reverted. [83]
I was told on the vandalism page to take this report here. Hopefully someone more qualified than I can help make a decision about this IP-hopping disruptive editor. If there is anything else I can do to help please let me know. I know I am not the only one who wants this stopped. If, however, this is the wrong place to report this, then I apologize profusely. --ḾỊḼʘɴίcả • Talk • I DX for fun! 01:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- This is interesting. The IP editor is not technically edit warring, and seems to think the information being added will help the article, but in general is not going back to the article to try to readd the information. If the editor does that and ignores warnings, then we have a serious issue. At present, I might say give the editor another day and see if it starts making the same edits. This looks like a drive-by edit situation on all articles in question. It also seems edits stopped at 21:54 UTC, 6 hours ago.
- With that said, I agree with another point; if the editor is being informed that the edits are not contributing positively to the article, and keeps making similar edits, a stop needs to be enforced. I'm not sure it's to that point yet. CycloneGU (talk) 03:56, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I understand that, but I also mentioned the editor is one of several within the same IP range that does this. When other IPs from the same range get blocked, he just jumps to another IP and off he goes again. Its been going on for quite some time. This isn't just a one day thing. I'll refer again to this page. All of the IPs from 74.178.xx.xx are from the same ISP, in the same region/city in the United States. --ḾỊḼʘɴίcả • Talk • I DX for fun! 05:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It sounds like we need a range block then if that's the case. CycloneGU (talk) 06:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I looked at the WHOIS for this IP and did the maths for the range it falls under. It calculates out as a /18 address range. That's a goodly chunk of Jacksonville, FL to knock out. Is the collateral damage a reasonable trade for kicking one disruptive user out of the mix? --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 15:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It depends on how many other users are using the range. The Cavalry (Message me) 15:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I might be wrong here, but wasn't there a long-time vandal who's modus operandi was doing this same sort of thing, and focused on the Houston area TV stations? Wildthing61476 (talk) 15:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, there is. User:Mmbabies is still activly IP hopping to evade his community ban. I have gotten tired of reporting him. --Gridlock Joe (talk) 20:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I might be wrong here, but wasn't there a long-time vandal who's modus operandi was doing this same sort of thing, and focused on the Houston area TV stations? Wildthing61476 (talk) 15:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Running the 74.xxx... IPs through the rangeblock calculator, I get 74.178.192.0/19. That would get all the 74.xxx... IPs in Anna's sandbox, but not any of the others. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Urk...you're right, my maths were off. Big fingers, small keys. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 16:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It depends on how many other users are using the range. The Cavalry (Message me) 15:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I looked at the WHOIS for this IP and did the maths for the range it falls under. It calculates out as a /18 address range. That's a goodly chunk of Jacksonville, FL to knock out. Is the collateral damage a reasonable trade for kicking one disruptive user out of the mix? --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 15:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It sounds like we need a range block then if that's the case. CycloneGU (talk) 06:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Personal attacks by Yogesh Khandke
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Closing because marking it resolved clearly did not work. CycloneGU (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Yogesh Khandke (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been involved in a variety of disputes related to Indian caste articles (see the section above, WP:ANI#Please look for some examples), and has repeatedly exercised fairly bad, incivil behavior. YK has repeatedly raised, in a variety of forums, a blog impugning the reputations of several longterm WP editors (claiming they are editing for money to deliberately slant the caste articles), made vague attacks, and cause other problems. I'm sure that other users could drag up more diffs than I, but I present just two, which I think, in and of themselves, are grounds for a block for personal attacks. In the middle of a discussion on User Talk:MatthewVanitas, MV mentions that he's been working on these articles for quite a long time. Yogesh reponds by saying "It has been reported that the fellow who bombed Oslo has been preparing hard since 2009." That is, YK is directly and unambiguously comparing MV and Anders Behring Breivik. To me, this is just a ridiculously obvious and wholly offensive personal attack. After being told that MV considered this a personal attack, Yogesh's response was only to state, "You are jumping the gun and putting words in my mouth, please keep the thread in one place. All I want to say is this (<embedded link cut>), which is also all that I have ever said.". So, no retraction, no acknowledgment of how offensive this claim is--in fact, an attempt to distract and go back to something else entirely. It appears to me that YK simply does not understand how to avoid being offensive, or knows and chooses not to, and thus fails to understand that this is intolerable. I'm involved on Indian caste articles and definitely with MV and associated editors, so I can't take action myself, but that looks to so obviously cross WP:NPA to me that I think it's block-worthy. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Off to notify now
- To provide a little more context about this infamous blog: long/short someone who is very likely one of our banned dozen-puppet sockmasters from Talk:Nair's fight last month wrote a blog with a very detailed story about being aware of some plot by which several editors who were cleaning up Nair (including me) had been paid $400/hr to go disparage the Nair community on WP. Really silly stuff, and User:MangoWong was blocked temporarily for repeatedly linking to this attack page. Even after MW was blocked, Yogesh continued to post it, and when links were removed for it being an attack page, instead of going to ANI or DR went directly to User:Jimbo Wales and to Sue Gardner frantically warning them of dire consequences to WP's credibility (from a ludicrously untrue blog that had barely 100 views at the time). It's a free country so he can whine to Jimbo as the spirit moves him, but you can obviously see from his part in the discussion that he's pushing this anonymous blog to discredit other editors with absolutely zero evidence: User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_79#Why_Wikipedia_is_not_reliable.
- Despite being told by various uninvolved folks on Jimbo's page that this was ridiculous, and Jimbo saying "In the meantime if anyone has actual evidence of wrongdoing, i.e. emails with headers intact offering cash for admin actions, I'm always keen to review such. But it sounds made up out of thin air at this point in time.", Yogesh has continued to drag up this blog. Most notably recently, apropos of nothing he brought it up at a WPINDIA discussion: Such an attitude was the reason for my bringing the blog to the notice of the founder. Every one should remember that he has promised to look at the issue, it is only a matter of months.[84]. So among many other attacks, he continues to bring up a smear blog that everyone has told him to shut up about, and then lies about Jimbo being about to smack us over its claims. When I called him on that, he replied Does anyone think that people are retarded and think it is about money? (I said the same thing to Zeebedee, four days ago[6]) Or is a lot of noise being made to divert attention, also check this[7].[85] again trying to avoid being pinned down despite it being clear he's trying to use the attack blog to cast aspersions.
- Long short, this guy is a prolific waste of everyone's time, does very little editing other than picking fights, and is indulging in increasingly blatant PAs that are far beyond civility. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:59, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict)
- Maybe I'm just clueless, but the comment about how the attacker was preparing hard since 2009 seems innocent and pointless. I don't think the editor meant to try to connect MV with the attacks in any way. Thus, I think his comment that words are being put into his mouth is also justified. With that said, I get the connection; I just didn't read it that way. CycloneGU (talk) 04:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- My reading is that he was clearly making the comparison, that it was tantamount to a personal attack. Not to mention so wildly out of proportion that I'm at a loss for words. Also, would support a blanket ban on him linking (or even mentioning) the blog. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 05:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Yes, this is me at a loss. Have you seen how much I normally rabbit on?
- It isnt not innocent; it is a deliberate comparison
- MV says :. I'm putting in a ton of work to improve caste articles
- YK responds: It has been reported that the fellow who bombed Oslo has been preparing hard since 2009.
- This isnt innocent and YK isnt someone who is new or doesnt know English. It is clear he is comparing MV to Anders Behring. This isn't the first time YK has been insulting people who dont agree with him. His MO is to phrase his insults in such a way that he can claim his innocence later saying he didnt mean that. Here he is comparing disccusion with Fowler&Fowler to "wrestling with a pig" and here he is again referring to Fowler as a kupamandukas (means ignorant frog in the well). This is a pattern - he regularly rants when he doesnt get his way in discussions and manufactures conspiracy theories. A week ago he also claimed I have also read that certain admins slaughter hundreds of new Indian editors for nationatialist pov. What is this page going to do about this malise?. He was repeatedly told to bring the matter to ANI or create an RFC against the admins concerned. But after repeating the same accusation again and again, he finally refused to go to ANI saying Brother I will go for AN/I, I will jump into a well, since you were so free with kind advice to me, what about a little wisdom to the fellows? Of course it is your life. This is his pattern - when he doesnt get his way in discussions, he will bring up Indian vs non-Indian editors issue, muckrack in noticeboard and user talk pages and refuse when asked to take it take it to ANI or RFC. Claiming "Every one should remember that he [jimbo] has promised to look at the issue, it is only a matter of months" when jimbo has closed the discussion saying the accusation was manufactured "out of thin air" and bringing up the ridiculous attack blog again is disruptive to say the least. --Sodabottle (talk) 05:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- No one is perfect Sodabottle. While you mention Fawlerx2, why do you not as a neutral fellow also present wild accusations by Fawlerx2? About user:Fawlerx2, the esteemed editors have ignored blatant anti-Indian Government POV pushing here. This is just one example. You can not come here just to throw more muck in the name of other editors. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 09:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, so Yogesh is promoting a blog that accuses a number of us of bribery and corruption at every possible chance, and is comparing one of our editors to a mass-murdering maniac, but it's Sodabottle who's throwing the muck? That's an, erm, interesting way to look at things -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- What have neutral admins done about editors with such anti-India POV? If someone points that out, he does not become a POV pusher. I asked clearly why Sodabottle have not also mentioned allegations from Fawlerx2's side as well. I can ask you too, why have you not presented allegations thrown by Fawlerx2 before pointing out what Yogesh replied, for which there are no replies. As you are taking an active part in the discussion here, being active is something you are clearly fine with. So tell us what have you done about such allegations from editors such as Fawlerx2. If tomorrow Yogesh points out arguments that others have alleged randomly, a question will arise what you, as a neutral active admin, done about all that? It appears that you have already decided in your mind that "Yogesh is promoting a blog that accuses a number of us of bribery and corruption at every possible chance, and is comparing one of our editors to a mass-murdering maniac". If things have been already decided here, why do we need the pomp and show? What have you decided already about random allegations thrown about by others and what have you done about it? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 10:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- thisthat2011, anti-India POV claims do not excuse personal attacks, intemperate language and convoluted logic. Please stop making insinuations against Sodabottle. If you feel so strongly about Fowler&fowler please set up an ANI or RFC against him and prove your point. And stop mis-spelling editors names. That is a personal attack on your part. How would you like it if we responded with a crude and lewd contraction of your name. And dont for a moment think that you have the "Theka" on defending the country on Wikipedia! AshLin (talk) 11:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I learn something more peculiar and novel every time I am part of discussions with smarter and higher-authority people. Not once anyone has bothered to know reliable source for such Anti-India nonsense, though it is common sense that everyone should be bothered about reliable sources. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- thisthat2011, anti-India POV claims do not excuse personal attacks, intemperate language and convoluted logic. Please stop making insinuations against Sodabottle. If you feel so strongly about Fowler&fowler please set up an ANI or RFC against him and prove your point. And stop mis-spelling editors names. That is a personal attack on your part. How would you like it if we responded with a crude and lewd contraction of your name. And dont for a moment think that you have the "Theka" on defending the country on Wikipedia! AshLin (talk) 11:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- What have neutral admins done about editors with such anti-India POV? If someone points that out, he does not become a POV pusher. I asked clearly why Sodabottle have not also mentioned allegations from Fawlerx2's side as well. I can ask you too, why have you not presented allegations thrown by Fawlerx2 before pointing out what Yogesh replied, for which there are no replies. As you are taking an active part in the discussion here, being active is something you are clearly fine with. So tell us what have you done about such allegations from editors such as Fawlerx2. If tomorrow Yogesh points out arguments that others have alleged randomly, a question will arise what you, as a neutral active admin, done about all that? It appears that you have already decided in your mind that "Yogesh is promoting a blog that accuses a number of us of bribery and corruption at every possible chance, and is comparing one of our editors to a mass-murdering maniac". If things have been already decided here, why do we need the pomp and show? What have you decided already about random allegations thrown about by others and what have you done about it? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 10:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, so Yogesh is promoting a blog that accuses a number of us of bribery and corruption at every possible chance, and is comparing one of our editors to a mass-murdering maniac, but it's Sodabottle who's throwing the muck? That's an, erm, interesting way to look at things -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- No one is perfect Sodabottle. While you mention Fawlerx2, why do you not as a neutral fellow also present wild accusations by Fawlerx2? About user:Fawlerx2, the esteemed editors have ignored blatant anti-Indian Government POV pushing here. This is just one example. You can not come here just to throw more muck in the name of other editors. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 09:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- This isnt innocent and YK isnt someone who is new or doesnt know English. It is clear he is comparing MV to Anders Behring. This isn't the first time YK has been insulting people who dont agree with him. His MO is to phrase his insults in such a way that he can claim his innocence later saying he didnt mean that. Here he is comparing disccusion with Fowler&Fowler to "wrestling with a pig" and here he is again referring to Fowler as a kupamandukas (means ignorant frog in the well). This is a pattern - he regularly rants when he doesnt get his way in discussions and manufactures conspiracy theories. A week ago he also claimed I have also read that certain admins slaughter hundreds of new Indian editors for nationatialist pov. What is this page going to do about this malise?. He was repeatedly told to bring the matter to ANI or create an RFC against the admins concerned. But after repeating the same accusation again and again, he finally refused to go to ANI saying Brother I will go for AN/I, I will jump into a well, since you were so free with kind advice to me, what about a little wisdom to the fellows? Of course it is your life. This is his pattern - when he doesnt get his way in discussions, he will bring up Indian vs non-Indian editors issue, muckrack in noticeboard and user talk pages and refuse when asked to take it take it to ANI or RFC. Claiming "Every one should remember that he [jimbo] has promised to look at the issue, it is only a matter of months" when jimbo has closed the discussion saying the accusation was manufactured "out of thin air" and bringing up the ridiculous attack blog again is disruptive to say the least. --Sodabottle (talk) 05:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I do understand and appreciate Qwyrxian's Wikipedia editing philosophy of solving disputes via amicable ways instead of "fighting" over them. In this case though, focusing only on behavioral issues, I do not see a problem with Yogesh Khandke. He is a patient, mature and balanced editor whose positions are well reasoned. I am saddened by the approach User:Sitush and his otherwise productive collaborators have taken - Sitush wishes to get rid of editors with whom he has had content disputes with. First a failed sockpuppetry case involving Yogesh, then on-going attacks and baiting to somehow drag him at ANI. Banning Yogesh would cause damage to Wikipedia by eliminating a viewpoint and making articles one-sided. Unless India related editors develop the ability to develop articles for the "other" side, editors like Yogehs are needed to keep a watch on articles. This thread should be closed ASAP and people should return to improving articles. Zuggernaut (talk) 05:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Zuggernaut, Yogesh by his own edits and actions has brought this against himself. Calling him a "patient, mature and balanced editor whose positions are well reasoned" indicates that your own judgement is highly questionable. If you wish your point of view to prevail, you have to abide by the principles of the 5 Pillars. This is absolutely the wrong way to further your country's POV, as opposed to those of Fowler&fowler and others, as you publicly claim that you would like to do. And stop mis-spelling Yogesh's name too! AshLin (talk) 11:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- We should not reward an editor who may have found a way to be absurdly over-the-top offensive while not actually using words that a court of law could unambiguously interpret. There were two editors in dispute, and one of them makes a remark about a terrorist who has been preparing hard since 2009—that meets any common sense definition of an attack, given the background, and given the failure to retract. Repeatedly posting to an absurd and obviously incorrect trolling blog shows that Yogesh Khandke needs a substantial wikibreak. In addition, the persistent pushing in articles related to India needs to be brought under control. Johnuniq (talk) 05:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. Presently, except for Sitush, MatthewVanitas and Qwirixian, nobody else seems to be able to get a dot in into the caste articles. And they are all like minded eds. Why should only these three get to dominate those articles? Are they omniscient? And what's wrong in discussing a blog which is already well known and is obviously saying baseless things. It was being discussed as an issue which could be an adverse reflection on WP, not anybody personally.-MangoWong (talk) 06:03, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The caste articles, the POV, all of that is currently irrelevant; if anyone wants to look at my or Sitush's or MV's editing styles, our "bias" feel free--I believe the other section is still open at the top of this page...heck, talk about it here. I'm not afraid of a boomerang when I threw a perfectly straight javelin. But the current concern is a blatant personal attack. This thread should not be closed (IMLTHO) until we get clarification that this was or was not an over-the-top personal attack. Either I (me, not anyone else, me) have lost my ability to understand basic English, am completely insane, or this is a totally unacceptable personal attack that demands immediate blocking. It is impossible to, as Zuggernaut says, "return to improving articles" when one of the other editors has just compared you to a person who admitted to intentionally killing over 80 people because of their political viewpoints. That's the whole point behind having a policy forbidding personal attacks: once the occur, editing collaboratively is impossible. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Qwyrxian. If any of you object to Fowler&fowler, Qwyrxian or Johnuniq's edits or you dont like the POV they push on caste articles, oppose them tooth and nail with debate, discourse, ANI, what have you but all the time within boundaries of civilty and 5 Pillars. If you make sense and have meaningful refs, I will vote for your case, if I'm convinced as I have in the past against a few of Fowler&fowler's edits. AshLin (talk) 11:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The caste articles, the POV, all of that is currently irrelevant; if anyone wants to look at my or Sitush's or MV's editing styles, our "bias" feel free--I believe the other section is still open at the top of this page...heck, talk about it here. I'm not afraid of a boomerang when I threw a perfectly straight javelin. But the current concern is a blatant personal attack. This thread should not be closed (IMLTHO) until we get clarification that this was or was not an over-the-top personal attack. Either I (me, not anyone else, me) have lost my ability to understand basic English, am completely insane, or this is a totally unacceptable personal attack that demands immediate blocking. It is impossible to, as Zuggernaut says, "return to improving articles" when one of the other editors has just compared you to a person who admitted to intentionally killing over 80 people because of their political viewpoints. That's the whole point behind having a policy forbidding personal attacks: once the occur, editing collaboratively is impossible. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- AshLin, I do not, for a moment, doubt your sincerity in what you say. However, trying to discuss anything or fingering the caste articles in the smallest of ways, seems to have become the surest way of getting oneself blackballed and blocked.-MangoWong (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for assuming good faith, MangoWong. If you intend to fight and win battles against seasoned editors on issues you feel are contentious - some advice. Firstly, do your research better than they do theirs. Beat them at their own game. Secondly, master and internalise the 5 Pillars and learn all the accepted norms of conflict resolution on Wikipedia - there are many things to learn, such as you cannot canvas support. Learn the numerous ways to tackle contentious issues. Thirdly, be absolutely sure that you are "correct" in this regard, rather than having a general feeling of being wronged. Be prepared to have an open mind while doing your research; if you find your argument is weak, avoid the conflict. Fourthly, persevere to get the change made. Be prepared for long discussions and debate, within 5 Principles, till you get your point across. Lastly, understand when it may be a lost cause and live to fight another day. At a level of 250+ edits, I would recommend staying off contentious articles till you learn the ropes. AshLin (talk) 17:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- AshLin, I do not, for a moment, doubt your sincerity in what you say. However, trying to discuss anything or fingering the caste articles in the smallest of ways, seems to have become the surest way of getting oneself blackballed and blocked.-MangoWong (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The "blog" in question (the only post on a new Blogspot account, put up specifically for this one post) is incontrovertibly a work of the most distilled crackpot paranoia at best, and a flagrant personal attack of the worst sort at worst. No editor in good standing here should ever have linked it here except to highlight that an editor had stooped to such depths. That Yogesh continues to link it with "please don't sweep this under the carpet" rationales either suggests a level of such profound cluelessness that allowing him to continue to edit here would be dangerous, or a vested interest in baselessly attacking the characters of other editors acting in good faith (despite his repeated protests to the contrary). The next time anyone links to it they should be blocked, and if that doesn't resolve the problem it should be blacklisted. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 08:31, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Blacklist first would probably be better, as the consensus seems to say that it shouldn't be linked? - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 10:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The blacklist would help, though not entirely, because the last several times its been raised its just been described rather than linked (sometimes with enough info to make searching for it possible, sometimes not). The mentioning of the blog, especially the "Jimbo's looking into this" seems to be an attempt to intimidate. Also, note that while the blog mention is bad, I actually think that the original diffs I raised--comparing MV to the Oslo terrorist, are much worse and much more directly a violation of WP:NPA. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
I've blocked Yogesh Khandke for one week, both for the utterly unacceptable comment he made regarding MatthewVanitas's edits and for the other evidence presented above of his ongoing WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing. I had considered an indefblock because I strongly believe that users who make the editing atmosphere unpleasant for others are a net negative, no matter what content edits they've made, and we're better off without them. Editor recruiting and retention is a growing issue and combative attitudes are actively destructive. However, I decided to to err on the side of caution... although I consider any return to editing after the week is up in the light of WP:ROPE. Review welcome as always, EyeSerenetalk 11:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I was stopped from doing the same by your celerity. I further endorse every word of the above, including the timestamp. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 13:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You were more lenient than myself. I was going to make it a month. Block endorsed, absolutely, though. Black Kite (t) (c) 15:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm cool with WP:ROPE, and appreciate the support. I/we probably let this go farther than it should before taking it here, and given how serious an impediment this has become I'm going to start being more deliberate about collecting diffs for the sort of behaviour that is massively slowing down caste article cleanups. On Talk:Nair the technique was more massive socking and blatant personal attacks (commenting on the morals and hygeine of other editors' mothers, etc) which was fixed via substantial blocks. On these Deccan caste articles there's been more subtlety, and wiki-lawyering, but equally nasty and chilling effects. Last week a couple of folks were on a kick of posting on multiple talk/user/project pages "the changes made at caste articles violate Indian hate speech laws", quickly followed by "oh, not a legal threat at all, I'm just saying..." Once that petered out, the focus has been pulling the emic/etic card (with a dose of Subaltern studies) to insist that self-identified Western editors "just don't understand India", despite the fact that we're backed by reputable Indian editors who somehow manage to edit without rallying to the flag at every turn. We have several relatively new Indian editors on caste articles who are doing great work, or are very new but willing to learn, so that's an even clearer mandate to stomp down on these discourse-lowering jabs on caste articles: endless accusations and sly attacks while refusing to file proper ANIs they know won't hold up. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- What is the use of filing any ANI if admins would jump in on one side and even go to the extent of misinterpreting policies, and simply ignore any complaints from the other side?-MangoWong (talk) 15:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- MangoWong, that you feel there are two "sides" here is disturbing. There is only one side on Wikipedia; those who want to write neutral, well presented and reliably referenced content. No other approach is valid. If you're seeing this in terms of a battle between ideologies you're on the wrong site.
- Re the rest, I hope that Yogesh Khandke understands that the leniency shown this time will not be repeated, and that other editors of a similar mindset take careful note of the comments above. Re blacklisting the blog, my personal feeling is that it's probably not worth doing. All sorts of people set up grievance sites about Wikipedia when we don't let them peddle their POV on site; as yet the righteous hordes galvanised by their shocking revelations have signally failed to descend. If linking to it becomes a widespread and persistent problem my views would change, but for now I prefer simply blocking anyone (per the usual policies) who uses it on site as a vehicle for unsubstantiated allegations and personal attacks. EyeSerenetalk 16:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hi EyeSerene, as one of the targets of that blog, and of Yogesh Khandke and others who were pushing it, I thank you for your actions here - it's heartening that every time one of these tendentious editors comes to ANI, we get more uninvolved editors and admins becoming aware of what's happening and providing their assistance, and we always get support for the hardworking editors trying to create properly sourced articles. I think your coming down on the side of leniency was good judgment too - no unbiased observer could possibly accuse the outcome of being too harsh, which I think is an important line to follow. I also agree that we shouldn't blacklist the blog. For one thing, it's so laughably inept that no honest person could take it seriously - and leaving it there kinda makes it part of the rope. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hi EyeSerene, thanks for mentioning that there is one side in Wikipedia -of "those who want to write neutral, well presented and reliably referenced content". In the same discussion above there are allegations against me as 'defending national POV' etc. when I pointed out that some user has made anti-Indian Govt. nonsense without any substance. Many editors & admins have not shown inclination to inquire source of such unsubstantiated allegation, instead went about pointing fingers at those who point it. Is it not in the interest of Wikipedia and members who adhere to neutral standards to avoid making it look like 'national POV defense' which is basically unsubstantiated nonsense, and also to avoid those who point out as 'national defense POV' people just so that admins/editors can avoid being neutral and inquire about reliable sources? Not once has these editors, who have replied to my messages above, inquired about secondary reliable sources, I don't know by what standards. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- And that ^ is another example of the tendentiousness that Thisthat2011 espouses. It is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT on a huge, repetitive scale. - Sitush (talk) 19:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
User:Raeky and Twinkle
Before anything else, I feel a disclaimer is appropriate. On July 18, I made this edit to Creation–evolution controversy, as I felt the wording was not as NPOV as it probably should be. However, it was reverted, and it seems the consensus is to keep this wording, so I didn't press the issue. Earlier, an IP made the exact same edit, and it was then reverted as "vandalism". I then left a uw-notvand template on User:Raeky's talk page, and tried to show Raeky that the edit was not vandalism and was made in good faith, but was unsuccessful.
I'm requesting that an administrator review User:Raeky's use of the Twinkle tool, and, if appropriate, to remove his ability to use the tool. Raeky is mislabeling edits as vandalism,[86][87][88][89] and templating IP addresses as such, and has a misunderstanding of what is and is not vandalism, even after being explained that such edits fall under WP:NOTVAND.[90]
"Random new accounts and IP's making the edit without an edit summery is essentially vandalism, specifically if the edit is against consensus and been reverted numerous times."[91]
When I made the edit, it was apparently in good-faith and not vandalism, but because the exact same edit was later made by an IP address, it "was clearly not good faith edits, they was POV pushing edits"[92].
Here, Raeky admits that "for dealing with these POV edits, it's clicking the vandal edit is an easy one click solution, that happens occasionally". Raeky is not marking the edits as vandalism because they fall under Wikipedia's definition of vandalism, but because doing so is "easy". This is not the intended use of Twinkle. Wikipedia:TWINKLE#Abuse specifically says that Anti-vandalism tools, such as Twinkle, Huggle, and rollback should not be used to undo good-faith changes in content disputes unless an appropriate edit summary is used. This is why I have brought this to the attention of the administrators, so that the issue can hopefully be solved.
Thank you for taking the time to read this, hopefully it wasn't too drawn out, I just wanted to make what I was trying to say clear enough. - SudoGhost 16:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Bitter much? I've explained my reasoning to the best I can on my talk page, but I see you want to keep it going by coming here. Irregardless of your edit, the article in question is plagued with POV pushing edits, and this particular edit is a POV pushing edit. It's not just the first time this particular sentence was removed, it's always removed, and almost always removed by IP addresses who have never edited before, or brand new accounts who have never edited before. After some point the same series of edits and changes become more, and to me it becomes vandalistic. It seems clear SudoGhost is either hurt that his edit was reverted or an extreme-rule follower. There are WP:IAR and WP:UCS, but a quick browse through the history of these creation/evolution articles, this type of reverting isn't uncommon. *shrug* — raekyt 16:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Accusing good faith editors of vandalism is not a 'shrug' issue - it chases off good faith contributors. Do you understand what WP:vandalism is? Off2riorob (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Off2riorob (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sure I do, I interpreted these brand new editors, jumping straight to a highly-controversial topic, and making a highly-controversial and debated edit, that has been changed multiple times already this week, as a likely WP:GAME with sockpuppets. Unless you edit these creationist/evolution articles, then you can't understand how much WP:GAME actually takes place. A brand new editor first editing there making a common POV edit, is likely WP:GAME... more likely than them being a legitimate user... If I'm incorrect in this assessment, then I am, but that was my reasoning for the edits. — raekyt 17:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It is a contentious statement, I'm not a creationist and even I think it's a pretty loaded statement, so it makes perfect sense that it would be removed often. Someone viewing that article and feeling strongly enough to make that first edit isn't going to know to scroll through talk pages and understand consensus or even that Wikipedia works through consensus. There is no WP:GAME there, and there is no vandalism. Everyone who makes that edit is not automatically a sockpuppet, making the WP:GAME argument completely unfounded without some kind of proof of sockpuppetry. - SudoGhost 17:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're welcome to your opinion on the edit or reasoning, just explaining mine. Theres a core set of editors on these particular pages that come here JUST to game the system, to disrupt it and to try to push their point of view. They use new accounts, ip's, etc... Afterall these articles are basically refuting their faith. It is VASTLY more likely a brand new editor making a POV edit on these creation/evolution articles IS here just to game the system, at least in my point of view. It's likely a point of view many of the regular editors of those articles would feel as well. Virtually every edit there gets reversed, and most are POV pushing. Just because YOU disagree with the consensus doesn't make the edit alright. Maybe I was wrong about it, but you keep pushing it further, like on my talk page, and now here... — raekyt 17:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Just because YOU disagree with the consensus doesn't make the edit alright." Who said otherwise? What I am saying, is that you still fail to see that the edits are not vandalism, that you're abusing the Twinkle tool, and that even still, you fail to see why it is an issue. If it were that one time, I wouldn't take issue, but you've shown that you have no intentions to change this behaviour, and my concern is that if you are allowed to continue to use twinkle for "ease", then you'll continue marking edits as vandalism when you disagree with them, and scare away potential contributors to Wikipedia. - SudoGhost 17:25, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're welcome to your opinion on the edit or reasoning, just explaining mine. Theres a core set of editors on these particular pages that come here JUST to game the system, to disrupt it and to try to push their point of view. They use new accounts, ip's, etc... Afterall these articles are basically refuting their faith. It is VASTLY more likely a brand new editor making a POV edit on these creation/evolution articles IS here just to game the system, at least in my point of view. It's likely a point of view many of the regular editors of those articles would feel as well. Virtually every edit there gets reversed, and most are POV pushing. Just because YOU disagree with the consensus doesn't make the edit alright. Maybe I was wrong about it, but you keep pushing it further, like on my talk page, and now here... — raekyt 17:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It is a contentious statement, I'm not a creationist and even I think it's a pretty loaded statement, so it makes perfect sense that it would be removed often. Someone viewing that article and feeling strongly enough to make that first edit isn't going to know to scroll through talk pages and understand consensus or even that Wikipedia works through consensus. There is no WP:GAME there, and there is no vandalism. Everyone who makes that edit is not automatically a sockpuppet, making the WP:GAME argument completely unfounded without some kind of proof of sockpuppetry. - SudoGhost 17:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sure I do, I interpreted these brand new editors, jumping straight to a highly-controversial topic, and making a highly-controversial and debated edit, that has been changed multiple times already this week, as a likely WP:GAME with sockpuppets. Unless you edit these creationist/evolution articles, then you can't understand how much WP:GAME actually takes place. A brand new editor first editing there making a common POV edit, is likely WP:GAME... more likely than them being a legitimate user... If I'm incorrect in this assessment, then I am, but that was my reasoning for the edits. — raekyt 17:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) No, you don't get to use WP:IAR to call edits that aren't vandalism "vandalism". If the talk page consensus supports keeping the existing language in the article, put that in the edit summary when you revert, instead of clicking the "[rollback (VANDAL)]" button. 28bytes (talk) 16:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- No. In adition to the rollback options there's also "undo" and "Restore to this version" buttons (both in and out of Twinkle). Unless it meets a very narrow definition of vandalism, you don't use the rollback options at all. If you can't seperate the good items from the bad, edit the page to undo the changes and note it in your edit summary. In short, put down the automation tools and edit by hand. It'll help you identify at a quick glance what does and does not qualify for various methods of reversion. Hasteur (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Accusing good faith editors of vandalism is not a 'shrug' issue - it chases off good faith contributors. Do you understand what WP:vandalism is? Off2riorob (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Off2riorob (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Raeky, it is pretty clear here that you do not understand the very, very narrow definition of the word "vandalism" as it should be used as a rationale for undoing the edits of others. That does not mean that I agree or disagree with your reverting the edits; I am taking no stance at all on that issue. However, I would strenuously suggest that you stop using the word "vandalism" to describe anything at all, since it is clear from the times you have used it that you have no idea how to use the word correctly. Instead, please try to describe exactly what is wrong with the edit in question. The more detailed you are in your rationale for reverting an edit, the more likely people will come to your side in any dispute over the issue, and the less likely people will get hung up over the words you use and completely miss what may otherwise be good work on your part. Instead of drawing attention for the wrong reasons, just avoid the word "vandalism" altogether. Strike it from your vocabulary, and instead be detailed in the specific reason for reverting someone. --Jayron32 17:26, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Raeky! I have a huge amount of respect for your work on Wikipedia and commend you for being so diligent at keeping Wikipedia accurate and free from vandalism. Unfortunately, I have to agree that, in this case, you may have made a mistake in labeling one or more edits as vandalism that were not actually vandalism. This is a very important issue for the health of the Wikipedia community and I think it needs to be taken seriously. Although Twinkle is a very useful tool, using it incorrectly can drive away potentially constructive new editors. If you are willing to correct this mistake and agree to only label obvious vandalism as vandalism, I think we can probably close this thread. Although it's often a pain in the ass, sometimes we actually need to take the time to talk to new editors in good faith, regardless of how misguided (or even malicious) they may seem at first glance. Kaldari (talk) 17:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've already said I probably made a mistake in labeling, and everyone seems in agreement that I did, so I did. It just gets a bit annoying when you watch edits on an article that 99% of all the edits need reversed... *sigh* — raekyt 17:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I must profess a great deal of sympathy for Raeky's position here. I consider these edits to be a form of subtle vandalism. The obvious strategy here is to repeatedly make a change to the article that is easy to make and creates maximum inconvenience to reality-based editors to fix. It isn't obvious vandalism, so the grownup in the room has to go through a more lengthy process to get the article back to it's consensus state. It seems to me a valid use of WP:IAR to defeat this disruption by using the simplest possible one-click way to revert it. Having said that, if anyone objects (as someone now has), it's probably better to revert without labeling the edits vandalism. It's not that much more difficult. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've already said I probably made a mistake in labeling, and everyone seems in agreement that I did, so I did. It just gets a bit annoying when you watch edits on an article that 99% of all the edits need reversed... *sigh* — raekyt 17:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Raeky! I have a huge amount of respect for your work on Wikipedia and commend you for being so diligent at keeping Wikipedia accurate and free from vandalism. Unfortunately, I have to agree that, in this case, you may have made a mistake in labeling one or more edits as vandalism that were not actually vandalism. This is a very important issue for the health of the Wikipedia community and I think it needs to be taken seriously. Although Twinkle is a very useful tool, using it incorrectly can drive away potentially constructive new editors. If you are willing to correct this mistake and agree to only label obvious vandalism as vandalism, I think we can probably close this thread. Although it's often a pain in the ass, sometimes we actually need to take the time to talk to new editors in good faith, regardless of how misguided (or even malicious) they may seem at first glance. Kaldari (talk) 17:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Personal attacks, bad-faith and slow edit-warring
JerryDavid89 (talk · contribs) was pretty sure[93] he personally attacked someone at Talk:Gilad Atzmon [94], but ultimately doesn't care (see first diff). JerryDavid89 has also attempted to remove some content over the period 1:00 27 July to 16:44 29 July on Marty Peretz four times.[95][96][97][98] The justifications, given in edit summaries have included "ridiculous amount of material here. "Wikipedia: the tabloid controversy conservatory"?!" and "there's still far too much "controversy" as far as I'm concerned". I've reverted these attempts twice. I first said, "If it is undue, you can still trim and preserve some content", to which an edit summary replied "that's what i did... [99]. I attempted to explain to the editor on they must have misunderstood what preserving meant[100] on 15:59 29 July. I rewrote the material, by shortening it, and reinstated it in condensed form on 15:47 29 July.[101] It was promptly reverted at 16:08 with no edit summary.[102] This was reverted by another editor who said "Unexplained removal or a large amount of content" to which the editor replied with the fourth revert, "actually, was explained".
In addition to their lack of concern over personal attacks the slow edit warring behavior, their talk page replies (including one that cautioned the editor about our ArbCom Arab-Israeli sanction) suggest no concern for our standards.[103] Can this be dealt with? Shootbamboo (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Should ongoing AFD discussions started by a now-banned user be summarily vacated and closed?
- Flylanguage (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user was a single-purpose account registered to promote and defend the coverage of Fly (programming language) on Wikipedia. When the article went up for AFD and the discussion was clearly not going his way, he left several harassing comments and pointily nominated several other obscure programming languages for deletion in classic "If I can't have mine, then you can't have yours" fashion. Subsequently he was indefblocked by Ruud Koot (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and talk page access was then revoked by Smartse (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
As an uncontroversial indefinite block (at least three admins including myself agreed with it), I judged that the user was now community banned. Therefore, I closed several of his pointy AFDs out of usual process as disruptive contributions by a banned user.
Later, Ruud Koot appeared on my talk page asking me to reverse my closes since some of the discussions had been forming consensus to delete. He clearly had a point, since WP:SK indicates that bad faith or pointy nominations should not be closed if uninvolved editors think the discussion is worthwhile. Somewhat serendipitously taking the opposite view, Pepper (talk · contribs) left me a comment soon after, asking me to close the pointy AFDs that I'd missed, citing the indefinite block.
The contradiction is amusing, since both options appear to be reasonable courses of action. It's an interesting test case based on a contradiction between WP:SK vs WP:BAN, so hopefully some third opinions will help resolve what to do. causa sui (talk) 18:15, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Since the AfD nominations preceded the indef block and de facto ban, it seems to me that WP:BAN wouldn't be applicable, hence no contradiction. —DoRD (talk) 18:26, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- This is a possible way to resolve the cognitive dissonance. However, does it match precedent? In abstraction from this specific situation, if a disruptive SPA is de facto banned due to disruptive contributions, shouldn't we revert those disruptive contributions that were the basis for the ban? That seems to be the spirit of the banning policy. causa sui (talk) 18:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I hadn't considered the disruptive SPA angle, so your point is a good one. Hmm, I'll have to think a bit more on this... —DoRD (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- This is a possible way to resolve the cognitive dissonance. However, does it match precedent? In abstraction from this specific situation, if a disruptive SPA is de facto banned due to disruptive contributions, shouldn't we revert those disruptive contributions that were the basis for the ban? That seems to be the spirit of the banning policy. causa sui (talk) 18:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Timestamp: if he's blocked first then put up the AFDs, revert (and summarily close). Otherwise let them play out. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Note, though, that the user couldn't have made nominations if they were already blocked. —DoRD (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- A number of the nominations didn't really make sense as AfDs (as they clearly had sources), but a few actually did and would quite likely get deleted if the AfDs were reopened. snaphat (talk) 20:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I would close them with a note on the talk page saying that there is no objection to their being reopened. Dougweller (talk) 20:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- My understanding of the whole "point"y AfD issue is that if a user nominates articles and is banned, say, ten minutes later (not saying that's the case here, just saying), that the "point"y AfDs can be closed. However, if there is an AfD among them that has a "Delete" comment by an uninvolved editor (essentially, not a sock), then the AfD should remain open as it could be presumed that this editor would be able to reopen the AfD if it were closed. CycloneGU (talk) 20:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- My thoughts go along the lines of CyloneGU's. I feel like having a banned user nominate an article for deletion (no matter how bad the article is) is not right. If I were a (new) user who was actually trying to create an encyclopedic article and it got nominated for deletion, I wouldn't feel too bad. If the nominator was a banned user, I would feel like it was completely unfair. However, if there is another editor who also believes the article should be deleted, then they should in affect be the nominator. I feel like the banned user's opinion shouldn't count, and this already happens other places (RfA etc.), therefore the article they nominated for deletion shouldn't count unless there is another user sharing their opinion. "Pepper" 22:03, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- This is one of the few areas in which the treatment of de facto and de jure bans varies. The rules on bannage have been abundantly clear for years: revert anything a banned user does on sight. However, from what I can see, this user has been indef blocked and talk-restricted, but is not under any formal ban. Bans are social measures used to exclude editors from the community, rather than merely anti-disruption tools. I'm very much in favour of letting noms by users who are merely indef blocked run as normal if they seem to be in the best interest of the encyclopedia. If you want to propose that the block be considered a formal ban then so be it, but I'd have left the noms to run in this case. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 22:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- A banned user can't nominate something for deletion, Pepper. I would say unless they were banned because of an improper AfD nomination, then their AfD nomination is as valid as any other. It should be judged on its own merits, not the character of the editor who nominated it. AfD doesn't equal 'deleted', and editors in perfectly good standing can make an improper nomination for AfD. So again, consider the nomination on its own, don't close things just because a person you don't like was the one nominating it, but because its actually improper, and if its fine, let it be. -- Avanu (talk) 22:31, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- This AfD discussion ended in delete despite being started by a banned user, and the deletion was upheld at DRV. The community evidently holds the very sensible position that we cannot invalidate the good-faith opinions of later !voters just because the nominator is banned. Reyk YO! 22:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yep. If the only person who thinks an article should be deleted is the now-banned nominator, then it can probably be a speedy keep. But if others are supporting deletion, then the discussion should play out to its natural conclusion. --RL0919 (talk) 22:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
User:Alphasinus
I have had a number of disheartening experiences with Alphasinus (talk · contribs) the user is interested in "Pan-Germanism" and has a habit of editing without or against consensus in order to enforce his viewpoint. He conducts slow revert wars that make it impossible to report him for 3rr, but that does not make the fact that every time I log on he has reinserted his pOV version instead of the sourced version that I have spent time writing, and without adressing the arguments on the talk page. Typical edits include inserting inserting definitions of ethnic groups as "Germanic" withotu providing a proper source for this definition (he has done this repeatedly with Norwegians, Danes, Swedes, and Dutch). He has also repeatedly copypasted the entire article on "X culture" into the article on the ethnic group (with Danes and Norwegians). He is now editwarring to remove mentions of the influence of Pan-Germanism on Nazism, and of the anti-semitic and anti-Slav elements of pan-German ideology from the lead of the article on Pan-Grmanism. In spite of all available sources including the ones he himself inserted into the article making an important point of these aspects. In all these cases he simply reverts without edit summary or without adressing discussion on the talk page. I would like some extra pairs of eyes on this situation as it is getting frustrating.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
:Note, I have taken the liberty of correcting the user name in Maunus's post above. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:26, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
~:If you could take a closer look at the edit, you would notice that i didnt remove what you added, but rather placed it in the proper part of the article. It's undue that the intro now talks more about Adolf Hitler and National Socialism than the very idea of Pan-Germanism.Alphasinus (talk) 18:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You removed it from the lead, in spite of the fact that you have repeatedly been told that the lead is supposed to summarise al relevant aspects of the topic. You did it without an edit summary and without adding any new argumens to the talk page. You have done it several times now. This is disruptive editing. In his edit[104] you even use the edit summary to misinform about what you are actually doing. It is not ok.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Requesting 1 week protection of Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship due to Vandalism
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User Spacejam2 has been warned to cease his moves of the page without discussion on either the talk page or on WikiProject Poland. Requesting 1 week protection of Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship. This particular page is used as example in the Manual of Style to use the Polish name if the English Name is not established
Ajh1492 (talk) 18:42, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please see WP:RFPP. —DoRD (talk) 18:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It would be nice if an administrator gave a warning to the user. Ajh1492 (talk) 18:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Now blocked for edit warring and move warring, which continued after they were notified of the ANI complaint. EdJohnston (talk) 22:31, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Sounds familiar, somehow...
Raging and raging in the lengthening thread
The mood will not heed the moderator;
Rules sprout loopholes; the FAQ cannot answer;
Mere trollery is loosed upon the site,
The lambent prose is loosed, and everywhere
The assumption of good faith is crumbled;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some resolution is at hand;
Surely Going Viral is at hand.
Going Viral! Hardly are those words onscreen
When a vast image out of Fandom Wank
Troubles my stream: somewhere in the wilds of the net
A community with zeitgeist and common purpose,
A cause right and pitiless as the sun,
Is searching for a forum, while all their LJs
Trail threads of the approving, supportive THIS’s.
The tweets move on again; but now I know
That 287 TLDs of peaceful sites
Were vexed to nightmare by a raging thread
And what rough horde, its cause come round at last
Slouches toward my website to be borne?— Preceding unsigned comment added by SarekOfVulcan (talk • contribs)
- I am disappoint. – ukexpat (talk) 19:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I like the poem, but you forgot to sign you post, which I believe is now a bannable offence per Decree #1147-C. The Cavalry (Message me) 19:26, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Didn't want to sign it when I didn't write it in the first place. :-)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't get. Explain would you? CycloneGU (talk) 20:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- The first line links to the source of the poem, along with several other musings on internet life. (See also The Second Coming (poem).)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't get. Explain would you? CycloneGU (talk) 20:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Didn't want to sign it when I didn't write it in the first place. :-)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I like the poem, but you forgot to sign you post, which I believe is now a bannable offence per Decree #1147-C. The Cavalry (Message me) 19:26, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am disappoint. – ukexpat (talk) 19:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Personal Attacks / Threat of Violence from 70.16.235.20
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Please see Special:Contributions/70.16.235.20, threatening violence against another editor. Tgeairn (talk) 22:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Blocked by Bsadowski1, edit also revdel'd. —GFOLEY FOUR!— 22:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Request to close merger discussion at Talk:Raja Yoga#Merge_proposal
In February it was proposed that Yoga Sutras of Patanjali be merged into Raja Yoga. There seemed to have been an overwhelming consensus against merger, but the discussion was never formally closed, and the templates remain on the pages. Now a couple of more people have weighed in to offer further agreement to reject the merger. Could an administrator please close the discussion and remove the templates, assuming you agree that consensus was reached? (note: I should not do so because I participated under my pre-change username) The discussion is here: Talk:Raja_Yoga#Merge_proposal. Thanks -- Presearch (talk) 22:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Thread archived unresolved
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This (link removed as dead link, see "Tokerdesigner, again" CycloneGU (talk) 00:38, 30 July 2011 (UTC)) thread was put to archive unresolved with an ongoing discussion. Is that usual? Mjpresson (talk) 00:25, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Probably not a normal practice, but as it was unresolved I've taken the liberty of restoring it from the archive this time due to the ongoing unclosed poll in the section. It was archived due to no replies within 24 hours. To keep it from being archived, make sure replies is made in the thread daily until resolution. CycloneGU (talk) 00:33, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ah. Thanks! Mjpresson (talk) 00:37, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Malleus Fatuorum - Civility issue
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Today's lesson: if you don't want an editor to blow up at you, don't go onto his talk page and call him a dick. 28bytes (talk) 02:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I hate to bring anybody here because this really isn't my thing, I'd rather be editing than report an incident about someone but something really should be done of Malleus, perhaps a suggestion to take a break from Wikipedia?
He has personally attacked other editors and when I raised the issue with him, he just insulted me and the other editor some more and accused me of not being able to tell my own arse from my elbow, which I can (even if my human anatomy knowledge is slightly lacking). That Ole Cheesy Dude (Talk to the hand!) 02:02, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
And another. That Ole Cheesy Dude (Talk to the hand!) 02:11, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- From what I gather of the conversation, Malleus was polite, if blunt, until Boycool made the comment "When you continue to act like such a dick about this, it makes one wonder why you reviewed the nomination in the first place". That's all I have to say. ceranthor 02:15, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Nothing constructive will come from this thread. Cheesy Dude, you probably have the best of intentions, but I would recommend withdrawing this. Best, Jenks24 (talk) 02:17, 30 July 2011 (UTC)