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User:TylerDurden8823, mass changes, introducing factual errors

User:TylerDurden8823 mass changes the term "alcohol abuse" to "alcohol use disorder", even though they are different things. Wikipedia has two seperate articles for it. The article Alcohol use disorder says, "This article is about chronic alcohol abuse that results in significant health problems. For alcohol abuse in general, see Alcohol abuse." So basically, the user assumes everone who (ab)uses alcohol has a disorder which is factually wrong. Even if it was correct in certain cases, it would be an unsourced change. A previous talk page discussion was blanked (Special:Diff/1101915733#"Alcohol_abuse"_to_"alcohol_use_disorder") and an ongoing one ignored (Talk:Stevie_Ray_Vaughan#"Alcohol_abuse"_vs._alcohol_use_disorder). Even if you interpret both terms as synonyms (which wikipedia doesn't do, as again, we have two seperate articles), it would still be an unnecessary change as "alcohol abuse" is a perfectly fine term to use, and it would be a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT -- FMSky (talk) 10:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

It's not because "I don't like it". The discussion was over and my talk page had become very lengthy (people had asked me to archive my page for some time and it was becoming burdensome). There is no reason to regularly use the term alcohol abuse since it is stigmatizing when a perfectly reasonable less stigmatizing alternative exists. I'm not sure how you decided that Wikipedia doesn't interpret both as synonyms, the dictionary does, but regardless of whether you see it as an "unnecessary change," is merely your own opinion, but there's nothing wrong with it. Even if Wikipedia has two separate articles for it, that doesn't make it factually true. As below, you have acknowledged that it is a synonym and contradicted yourself. You were unable to provide a compelling case for why the term "alcohol abuse" is necessary over alcohol use disorder before too and remain unable to do so. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I regularly abuse alcohol, but do not have a disorder? Good point. I agree, these are not the same. We aren't all teetotalers.PrisonerB (talk) 11:58, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I never said that I am a teetotaler nor that everyone should be. I am sorry to hear that you regularly abuse alcohol though I'm not sure how that's relevant. Your opinion here about whether these terms are synonymous is irrelevant. High-quality sources say they are (see below). Wikipedia reflect what high-quality sources say. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that these are NOT synonyms, and @TylerDurden8823: should NOT be making such changes. Use disorder is not the same thing as abuse, and we should strive to reflect what the sources themselves say. If the source says something is "________ abuse" we should use that phrasing, and if the source says something is "________ use disorder" we should use that phrasing. They are different things, and should not be used interchangeably. --Jayron32 12:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Really? See the following quote from alcoholism: "Because there is disagreement on the definition of the word alcoholism, it is not a recognized diagnostic entity. Predominant diagnostic classifications are alcohol use disorder[2] (DSM-5)[4] or alcohol dependence (ICD-11); these are defined in their respective sources.[15]" The NIAAA also says you're wrong here with a direct quote: [1] "It encompasses the conditions that some people refer to as alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence, alcohol addiction, and the colloquial term, alcoholism." Merriam Webster agrees too, FYI [2] "NOTE: Alcohol use disorder ranges from mild to severe and is typically considered to encompass conditions also referred to as alcohol dependence, alcohol abuse, alcohol addiction, and alcoholism." TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• I warned him about this previously (probably 2 years ago) and was basically given the impression I needed to piss off, I just hadn't gotten around to following up. But this is a very long time problem. It would take a lot of time to go through and fix everything he has done. But they aren't the same, and he has been extraordinarily disruptive with it, to the point it will take someone going through his edits to fix it. I can't see just letting this slide. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:16, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, because your warning and conduct were inappropriate and you didn't interact well and come across as disrespectful. I have not been disruptive about it and you seem to misunderstand the differences here. Please see the quotations from very strong sources below. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:33, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

just looked it up, yikes: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TylerDurden8823&diff=1018259691&oldid=1018215721 --this is a bigger problem than i'd originally thought --FMSky (talk) 20:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and your objections are all inappropriate. They are appropriate substitutions. It is the name for the disorder. As I have discussed in several places, it is backed up by numerous sources. I think you may need a hobby rather than wikistalking me. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes great thats a name for the disorder. What does this have to do with people having abused alcohol on occasion? --FMSky (talk) 21:33, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

There are clearly defined criteria for what constitutes alcohol use disorder. A person can qualify even if it's periodic. So, you're admitting then that it's a name for the disorder and thus a synonym. Great, that's progress. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

A name (not even the name, that would be "alcoholism") for the disorder yes, synonym to alcohol/substance abuse obviously not. --FMSky (talk) 21:43, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Are you really going to try and debate what constitutes a synonym with a nonsensical semantics argument? Please see the dictionary's definition of a synonym here [3]. I do not see why you are clinging so desperately to unnecessary stigmatizing language when you have acknowledged on more than one occasion that alcohol use disorder is a synonym, even in this thread. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:48, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

not a synonym. the end --FMSky (talk) 21:50, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

You are contradicting yourself and flying in the face of the dictionary and other strong sources, FYI. This now just seems like stubborn refusal because you don't like it. Seems hypocritical to me to cast aspersions of WP:IDONTLIKEIT when this is the display I'm seeing. How about you address the actual sources I have provided? You have now acknowledged that they are synonyms twice [4] [5] and then backpedaled [6] and contradicted yourself [7] both times.(talk) 21:54, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Don't forget to focus on content. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I haven't, but it doesn't prevent me from pointing out contradictions and a pattern of behavior directly aimed at me since they decided to open this can of worms back up and aren't leaving me alone.(talk) 22:22, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Didn't someone called 'TylerBurden' just get ARBCOM banned? Is TylerDurden a second cousin or something? 🤔  Tewdar  21:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I have no clue. Unrelated. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

My apologies then, just a coincidence.  Tewdar  21:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Just to make it clear that there's no connection there, Tyler Durden is a character from the novel (and movie) Fight Club. Tyler Burden is just a play on the name Durden, but both are (presumably) named after that character, one just decided to make a play on words with it. There are at least 6 editors that contain TylerDurden or Tyler Durden at the beginning of the name (which is honestly way fewer than I expected), but it's a popular character in certain circles so it's very much just a coincidence that two different editors happen to have a similar name around that theme. - Aoidh (talk) 01:46, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• In light of Tyler's comment about being a physician who has treated many people with this disorder, as well as his objection to the 'stigmatizing' nature of the term 'alcohol abuse', I suspect we might be in WP:RGW territory. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:02, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Nonsense and I don't appreciate the focus on character. Please focus on the content. As I have said, I have yet to hear a compelling argument for the stigmatizing term nor seen it disproved that alcohol use disorder is a synonym. The facts remain what they are. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:12, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Let me ask you this way: is it possible for a person without an alcohol use disorder to abuse alcohol? Dumuzid (talk) 22:15, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I refer you back to the definitions provided. But yes, if it has been under a year since alcohol use disorder refers to a slightly more longstanding pattern of this kind of alcohol consumption. Nevertheless, based on how we use this term on Wikipedia and widely in other sources, they are largely considered synonymous (see the many sources I have provided). If someone abused alcohol and then stopped for a few months and never did it again, I suppose that would be the exception to the rule. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that one is a disorder and the other an activity; I understand your argument here, but there is a sense in which they are synonymous (understanding "abuse" as a habit or ongoing activity) and one in which they are not (understanding "abuse" as an independent incident). By my lights, it is worth preserving that distinction for encyclopedic purposes. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

No, the disorder encompasses that. I still have yet to see you address the sources provided. Please do. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

So, if I were to say "we have to stop alcohol abuse at fraternity parties," you would understand that I was making a mental health plea? Dumuzid (talk) 22:40, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

What is your point? TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:42, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

My point is that the phrase "alcohol abuse" can indeed be used as a substitute for "alcohol use disorder," but it can also be used to refer to discrete activities. In my "fraternity" example above, I would understand the phrase to refer to overconsumption at said parties without reference to the mental state of those involved. Dumuzid (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Please read the comments above carefully. I didn't say that they can't though others have and that's the point. Even though I would understand what you're saying in the sentence above, it would be more correct to say binge drinking or high-risk alcohol use. Again, this really seems like splitting hairs. Out of the articles I edited, I have a feeling that examples that your specific example would apply to here, if any, would likely be in a very small minority at best. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:51, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Taking a quick gander, the only recent example I find is Stevie Ray Vaughn's father, and while I certainly understand your point, for me, anyway, I would slightly prefer the "abuse" language. It strikes me as something closer to an objective, observable fact. "Alcohol use disorder" strikes me as more like a diagnosis from afar, even if it is one that makes a great deal of sense. In everyday life and common parlance, I think you are right, but on Wikipedia where I believe in epistemic humility, it strikes me as just a bit too far. It's like some (admittedly obvious) WP:OR. I'll be the first to say that medicine is not my forte, but I think this is an instance where we need to hew closely to the sources. Reasonable minds may differ, of course. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:09, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• This is a common misunderstanding I see, even sometimes among experienced editors, where someone thinks that some sources equating two things in the general case mean that we can do so in each specific case. This may be true for terms that are strictly synonymous. Like if RS agree that a wrench and a spanner are the same thing, and one source says "The Queen always carries a spanner", it might be acceptable to state that the Queen always carries a wrench. But for academic terms like these, not defined the same way by everyone, with meanings that have evolved over time, that doesn't work. If you're going to say someone has alcohol use disorder, you need a citation saying that they, specifically, do. Anything less is WP:SYNTH. If Tyler can't see that, then I'm inclined to support a TBAN. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  I disagree that you have to have the source use that exact terminology when that is the name for the disorder. Please address the specific sources specifically saying that these are direct synonyms and the massive contradiction that we use the term "use disorder" for every other substance other than alcohol (despite many sources in the laypress continuing to use archaic stigmatizing terms-it's a mixed world out there and addiction medicine remains very misunderstood). We have used plenty of sources that probably say "opioid abuse" or abused opioids yet say they have an opioid use disorder. Your internal logic here has some major holes in it. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  We have used plenty of sources that probably say "opioid abuse" or abused opioids yet say they have an opioid use disorder. That's not acceptable either. Neither is saying that someone has major depressive disorder based on sources saying they're depressed, antisocial personality disorder based on sources saying they're a sociopath, etc. If you don't understand that, I worry that a TBAN from alcohol might not go far enough. And it's not my "internal logic". It's the logic of this community in creating SYNTH. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:51, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I 100% disagree with your premise and it falls afoul of the reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy. I'll tell you what though-I think I've had enough of the malignant policies and people on Wikipedia. I think I'll just stop editing altogether. You may do what you wish. You'll continue to lose veteran editors if you keep this up. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:55, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Tamzin, to be honest I would go a step further to say that Wikipedia's psychology articles have an especially hard time distinguishing psychopathy/sociopathy from antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. I agree it's not acceptable, and this is only made harder by the overlap between criminal psychology and clinical psychology and their real-world disagreements that are in my experience difficult to represent with due weight in-article. Darcyisverycute (talk) 08:59, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

• Not commenting on this discussion but clerically noting that I have fixed the links in the original message (they were broken raw links as the last parenthesis was being treated as part of the link) and made them wikilinks to the intended destinations. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 23:13, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• I will point out that academically speaking the words are not synonymous. According to [8], Alcohol misuse is a broad term that incorporates a spectrum of severity, ranging from hazardous use that exceeds guideline limits to misuse severe enough to meet criteria for an alcohol use disorder (AUD) ie. they are not synonymous, and do not even overlap as far as defitions go since alcohol abuse/misuse refers to subclinical AUD. In the interest of a less biased term, I would suggest "alcohol misuse" and "alcohol abuse" are synonyms, and I think the first is less stigmatising (this is just my opinion though - I don't know what other people think). AFIAK, the term "alcohol abuse" has fallen out in academia in preference for "alcohol misuse", and I believe it is probably to try and dodge the stigma, although I haven't seen any evidence it's actually achieved this. Thanks Darcyisverycute (talk) 08:40, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

• I have not done an exhaustive check, just a dozen or so recent edits from TylerDurden8823's recent contributions. I do not see a mass of inappropriate changes. Most of the changes I looked at appeared reasonable, if not necessarily necessary, and were associated with a large number of minor copy edit improvements during the same edits. This does not tick the boxes of "mass edits" for me, considering that there were other edits interspersed. Also, most of the reversions also removed all the improvements as collateral damage. I would say the reversions I looked at did more harm than good. I do not know how many of the other people commenting here have inspected the actual changes under dispute, or how many they have checked, or how many of the cases of changing alcohol abuse or alcoholism to alcohol use disorder were actually inappropriate, taking into consideration that I also think that there is a difference between alcohol abuse as an activity and alcohol use disorder as a medical condition and alcoholism as a poorly defined non-medical term. To those of you who have not personally checked, I suggest that you do so. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Topic ban proposals

I'm proposing a topic ban from all topics regarding alcohol, broadly construed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support As proposer. This is a long time problem that won't get fixed any other way. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

That's way overkill and not appropriate. The edits I have made are completely appropriate and have not introduced factual errors. I wholly disagree with your assessment and sense a clear ax to grind. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 21:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

That you can't understand the problem is why a topic ban is necessary. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:08, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• • Adding support for psychiatric disorders due to new evidence. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support for obvious reason. Or just never making that edit again, but that would be hard to monitor --FMSky (talk) 21:51, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

For anyone reviewing this, I again refer you to the aforementioned sources showing that Dennis, Prisoner, and FMSky are wrong. Here are just a few more showing that they are, in fact, synonyms by definition: [9], [10], [11] (suggesting these terms can be used interchangeably from a very strong source, NIDA), [12], [13] (analogous to how we use opioid use disorder, not "opioid abuse"-we literally do this for basically every other substance use disorder and appropriately so).

While I haven't thoroughly analyzed all of those sources, I wouldn't put too much stock in the Dictionary.com definition. While it says that the disorder is 'characterized by alcohol abuse or or dependence', I do not interpret that to mean that all forms of alcohol abuse are necessarily connected to the disorder. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:23, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

That's up to you but that's the weakest of the sources provided. Merriam Webster is a much stronger source and says the same as do sources like the NIAAA. Your argument sounds like a pedantic one that misses the intention behind the definition you're quoting. Cleveland Clinic disagrees with you [14] as does UPenn [15]. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm making an honest effort to help sort out this dispute, and it's requiring a little bit of extra effort to fully understand what these terms mean and whether they can be used interchangeably. You may deal with these issues on a regular basis, but the rest of us don't. If you could actually answer Dumuzid's question, that would help all of us to better understand your point of view. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:33, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Based on how you originally entered the discussion, I did not get that impression since it felt like you immediately started commenting on character. If that's the impression you want others to have, then perhaps consider a different approach next time. I did answer Dumuzid's question. If you could read the sources I have provided (most of them are not that long) before commenting further and seeing that there are numerous examples that are directly saying that they're synonymous, that would be great. That would be more helpful to truly trying to sort out the issue. Thanks. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps I will peruse the sources when I return to Wikipedia later this evening. Or perhaps not. Talking down to me is not the best way to get me to do extra reading, and I think you'll find most other people here are similarly unimpressed. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:49, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Talking down to you? I think you need to re-read your initial comment and really decide who spoke down to whom here. I just don't buy this feigned I just wanted to help innocent comment after opening with a comment on me. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from psychiatric disorders. The discussion above does not leave me with faith that Tyler is able to edit in line with out policies and guidelines in this topic area. I actually don't know if a topic ban from alcohol in particular is necessary, if this topic ban is enacted; color me neutral. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:09, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support TBAN on alcohol, broadly construed - Conflating alcohol abuse with alcohol use disorder is problematic WP:SYNTH. It's worsened by the fact that such conflation could lead to something like a BLP being described as having a mental disorder (alcohol use disorder) when the really don't have it. It also appears as though Tyler is not willing to acknowledge he is wrong or even agree to stop doing this, which is WP:IDHT. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 23:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on alcohol, broadly construed We do not need tenacious axe grinders misbehaving for years in a certain topic area. If the disruption spreads elsewhere, I will support a sitewide block. Cullen328 (talk) 01:35, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support TBAN on alcohol and drug use issues, broadly construed. I would expand the TBAN beyond the OP. Tyler hasn't limited this to alcohol, this is representative, not exhaustive, and if we narrow this TBAN to alcohol, it will continue for other issues as well. As a side note, they have taken their ball and gone home, though I think the TBAN discussion should continue since they could return at any time. --Jayron32 01:38, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on alcohol, broadly construed - I have no opinion about a topic ban on the broader drug issue or psychiatric disorders (though the above comments from Durden are not reassuring that there won't be an AN/I discussion later about these things in a broader sense) but what is well demonstrated is that there is an ongoing issue with alcohol that needs to be addressed, and a topic ban is the most narrow solution which will solve that without having to resort to flat out blocks or bans. - Aoidh (talk) 01:54, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from psychiatric disorders even if it will be moot as long as Tyler stays retired, which is certainly his prerogative. It's a shame to see a veteran editor leave on such terms, but nobody forced him to insist that everyone else was wrong. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:31, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Well ... I'm not supporting because there's plenty of pile on without me, but if I had a dollar for everyone at ANI who slaps "RETIRED" on his or her user page in the wake of a filing not going their way (most of whom slink back after a few days or weeks), I could go to the corner pub and get thoroughly hammered. Ravenswing 14:35, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Striking my support upon further consideration. The underlying issues are clear as mud to me, and in retrospect I probably shouldn't have gotten involved in this discussion. I don't want to see an editor get unjustifiably sanctioned (retired or otherwise). I think this thread might have taken a very different direction if Tyler hadn't been so doggedly combative, but that's not a sufficient reason to topic ban him. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:48, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support because of the continuing problems.PrisonerB (talk) 10:15, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from medicals as a whole. There is clear evidence of disruption more than just alcohol. Georgethedragonslayer (talk) 15:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  I feel like this whole discussion is overkill. We're dealing with a situation in which terms have multiple meanings; also, we're frequently dealing with lower-quality sources (e.g., journalists who toss in whichever term they're familiar with, or whichever term a family member used, without verifying that this is, in fact, the completely and precisely correct term). And since some editors believe that term X means whatever Miss Snodgrass told them, and some editors believe, as an article of faith, that we should blindly follow the sources right off a cliff even if we know the source is wrong (or at least not so precise that we should rely on it for fine distinctions between closely related, overlapping, and sometimes contested terminology), and yet other editors believe that term Y is highly preferable because some other sources say to normally prefer Y over X, we are... going to topic ban someone who turned several highly viewed medical articles, including one on a serious and common psychiatric condition, into Wikipedia:Good articles?

  This might not be a proportionate response to a reasonable difference of opinion.

  In case folks haven't reviewed the edits in question, let me step you through two:

  The disputed change in MicroRNA is about whether we should say "Alcoholism" to "Alcohol use disorder". The cited source mentions:

  • "alcoholism" four times (not counting two mentions of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism; counting one mention of specially bred animals for lab testing)
  • "chronic alcohol abuse" five times
  • "long-term alcohol abuse" once
  • "alcohol abuse" once (again, not counting NIAAA's name)

  If the goal were to stick strictly to the sources, then chronic alcohol abuse is the winner. That's a red link. What's the nearest term? Well, reasonable people could disagree, but alcohol use disorder sounds like a plausible option to me. AIUI everyone who "abuses" "alcohol" "chronically" actually does have AUD.

  This disputed change took a sentence that's probably got a Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing problem, and changed the plain-text words "teen drug and alcohol abuse" to a link to the nearest relevant article, "teen substance use disorder". Is this perfect? Maybe not. Is the cited source (in which the author says things like "I guess what they say is true: Everything is bigger in Texas, including their ignorance on the effects of such laws") perfect? Definitely not. Is there a material gap between "teen drug and alcohol abuse" and "teen substance use disorder"? Reasonable people could disagree, but the statement is going to be factually true (i.e., in the real world) regardless of whether you link to Substance abuse or Substance use disorder, and the reader's IMO best served by having a link to one of those pages, instead of having no links, which is what the reversion created. (Also, Wikipedia is best if we could please avoid copyright problems, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing, and reverting back to the prior too-close-for-comfort version is Not Actually Helping on that score. I'm going to assume here that the reverter didn't bother to look at the source, because the alternative is worse [i.e., that the reverter either doesn't understand our copyvio standards or doesn't mind violating them].)

  I think this dispute might have reached a productive resolution if the editors involved had tried contacting editors who know something about these subjects (e.g., Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine) before trying to process this as an alleged rule-breaking incident. I wonder whether that might still be possible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

• I just re-read this "argument":

  The disputed change in MicroRNA is about whether we should say "Alcoholism" to "Alcohol use disorder". The cited source mentions: "alcoholism" four times (not counting two mentions of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism; counting one mention of specially bred animals for lab testing) "chronic alcohol abuse" five times "long-term alcohol abuse" once "alcohol abuse" once (again, not counting NIAAA's name). If the goal were to stick strictly to the sources, then chronic alcohol abuse is the winner. That's a red link. What's the nearest term? Well, reasonable people could disagree, but alcohol use disorder sounds like a plausible option to me.

so basically, "alcohol use disorder" wasn't used once in the article but somehow you conclude that this is the term that should universally be used?.

"AIUI everyone who "abuses" "alcohol" "chronically" actually does have AUD.'" - and that seems like WP:OR to me. --FMSky (talk) 04:05, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

FMSky, you are missing the point. At AN/I we are not here to work out what the correct/ideal wording should be. WAID examined the source to demonstrate that it used many different terms for much the same thing, and noted the original text may have plagiarism issues. WP:OR says:

Despite the need for reliable sources, you must not plagiarize them or violate their copyrights. Rewriting source material in your own words while retaining the substance is not considered original research.

So editors are permitted to use terms and words that do not appear in the source. Whether the original text or modified text "retains the substance" is not trivially obvious here. I'd suggest that an actual doctor with experience in this domain might have more of an instinct about this than just some random person on the internet. That doesn't mean they are right but some people here weirdly seem to think knowing something about the subject you are writing about should be held against him and all the more reason to topic ban them. Clearly some editors have strong opinions, and yours are very likely influenced by the investment you made with 100 reverts and complaining about the other guy at AN/I. We all then know that you and all the other folk with pitchforks and torches are unlikely to back down, in this forum, for obvious reasons. That makes this a crap place to have a discussion about the best wording for pathological alcohol use in our articles. I think WAID has demonstrated that a reasonable person paraphrasing the sources may have chosen the wording Tyler did. You are paying special attention to that edit because it changed the wording, rather than if Tyler wrote the whole paragraph originally. I'd really advise backing down on continuing to argue at AN/I and instead, if you do care about how we should word the terminology surrounding pathological alcohol use, then join the discussion at WT:MED (which won't be concerned with who is right or who should be sanctioned). -- Colin°^Talk 09:02, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I also want to call out the drift from what I said ("reasonable people could disagree...sounds plausible to me") to what FMSky said in reply ("you conclude that this is the term that should universally be used"). Hmm, I'm pretty sure that I didn't say anything that goes any further than the one article/one source I discussed, and I didn't even "conclude" which term "should" be used in that one sentence, much less which term "should universally be used".

I point this out because it's very easy to slide from narrow particulars into pounding on the table about the end of the world (anyone who wants to write a warning essay about this could likely fill it with examples from my own posts), and, even though it's a mistake I've made repeatedly, it is also a mistake that I think we should resist. There might be a certain dopamine rush when we jump from "She didn't fully agree with me about this one sentence" to "I gotta defend the whole wiki against these people who don't even believe in <shared value>!!!!1!!!!", but our community works best if we don't misrepresent the opinions of other editors, even if that makes for somewhat more boring, fact-based conversations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:10, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• This is a reasonable suggestion. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 13:00, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
• agree as well w/ WAID--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:31, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Me too. I'm also interested in precisely what the scale of this mass editing is. The editor could have made three edits or three thousand from the evidence provided. I'm also very interested if there has a detailed discussion of the distinction between the terms... and how much the editor was involved in this discussion. I'm aware that content discussion can take a long time, and I'm not sure this is the correct forum, but it does rather feel like people have come to a conclusion here without much reference discussion of wht is right and wrong. It also strikes me that the terms "use" and "abuse" are very likely to be used within the literature for "political" purposes, so it's unlikely to be an open and shut case. Darcyiscute's source above seems like a good source on this [16], it has a summary of the terms in Table1... which does make things a little open and shut, but I wonder if this is simplification or editorializing on the part of the author. Talpedia (talk) 14:13, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

That is a good point about to what extent that source editorializes the terms. So I've had a closer look at the 2016 review, which says which says: This table is adapted with permission from [...] and uses terminology from the DSM-IV for alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence, and from the DSM5 for [alcohol use disorder]. The source table was abbreviated and updated to reflect the DSM-5 terminology for this report in collaboration with Dr. Jonas. If this is a faithfully reproduced table, then I have no reason to believe the review editorialized the definitions. The [...] is referring to [17], which is a standards recommendation by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, so for at least the US I believe this is a secondary source faithfully reproducing these 2013 standards and representing academic consensus on definitions, which in turn were largely based on the DSM-5 and ICD-10 at the time.

They mention a more detailed report of their methods is described at [18], which says: The operational definition of drinking limit guidelines varied across studies. Studies typically defined limits by a weekly total of standard drinks (eg, <20). (More detail on page 33).

There are a few nontrivial questions which I think would be best established at RfC (I do not think ANI is the right venue for this):

1. What term should articles use for referring to "consuming excessive alcohol"? Can editors use the USPSTF guidelines to determine if alcohol consumption is excessive?

2. (using placeholder "alcohol misuse") Does not following a USPSTF guideline constitute alcohol misuse? Is it original research for us to say x person has alcohol misuse based on this logic if it's not stated in a reliable source?

3. Is it libelous to claim on a BLP article that a person has "alcohol misuse" if this is not directly stated by reliable sources? (I haven't looked at all the editors' changes, but I think this is relevant)

Thanks Darcyisverycute (talk) 16:07, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

In a way quoting the DSM makes me *less* sure about the terminology - since the DSM will be prescriptive rather than descriptive of how researchers talk... but I agree let's chase this up somewhere else if we are going to dig into it.

On 2. I almost feel as if alcohol misuse has a distinct meaning with lower standards of evidence in biographies. If a lot of newspapers talk about alcohol misuse then perhaps we should use the "lay" meaning and not try to be specific. To be clearer we would need to have access to someone's medical records!

On 3. I suspect that if someone is shown to be repeatedly drinking to excess with negative results in reliable sources it would be reasonable to describe them as "misusing alcohol". On the other hand saying that someone has "alcohol use disorder" may well be libelous (depending on context) because it's more specific and it sort of implies that a doctor has agreed to this (and so, presumably, this information is more reliable). Talpedia (talk) 18:21, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I am tempted to add to this conversation, but I think we need to have the conversation elsewhere. I suspect that we need a conversation on stigmatizing language in general plus a separate one for alcohol specifically. Additionally, some of the disputed articles might need individual discussions.

Talpedia, I find 95 instances of FMSKy reverting TylerDurden's edits, so presumably, if we assume that 100% of those involved these terms, that means the "mass edits" is on the order of 100 edits. (They aren't all about alcohol; I don't see those terms in either this or this, both in the same article [the only one I checked], and the word alcohol doesn't appear on the page. But, still, as a rough approximation, it's probably closer to 100 than to 10 or to 1,000.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:25, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban per WhatamIdoing. Tyler has helped get articles to Good Article status. The changes Tyler has been making seem reasonable and the problem seems to surround nuanced disagreements between terminology e.g., alcoholism vs. alcohol use disorder, misuse vs. abuse. Such disagreements exist in the academic literature, professional bodies and treatment/recovery groups/organisations. This is a pure content dispute and this specific content dispute has arisen before on Wikipedia over the years. It is inappropriate to topic ban a user to settle a content dispute when there is no convincing behavioural issues.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 15:40, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

  Is there an official process for suspending or otherwise giving up on this discussion, at least until the content question can be discussed at other/suitable pages? I'm sure that nobody here wants to issue a topic ban when there's any significant chance that subsequent RFCs would prove the disputed edits correct, and it would be preferable to have this editor free to join in the content discussions (if he's willing, which is uncertain). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Why would that be needed? We currently have over 10 people in favor of a topic ban and only one against. Case seems pretty clear to me --FMSky (talk) 05:22, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Btw here again the source that the terms are not synonyms https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837467/ --FMSky (talk) 05:27, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I count 3 and half (the half being me). I think it's still unclear what the best term is and it may well vary from a case to case basis. But you are correct, a lot of people seem to be in favor of topic ban. There are clear advantages of resolving content disputes through source analysis rather than topic bans in terms of compliance, personal growth, procedural fairness, article quality, and drama reduction and editor retention. There are however time costs and some editors may simply ignore any evidence given. Talpedia (talk) 15:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@FMSky, let's look at your source. It's got WP:MEDDATE problems and it's about something else, but you like it, so let's look at it. Specifically, let's look at the relevant footnotes in the source you recommended. The footnote for "AUD^§" says "DSM-5 criteria. Not all exact criteria are listed. This new category integrates the 2 DSM-IV disorders “alcohol abuse” and “alcohol dependence” into a single disorder for DSM-5."

That means that – according to your own recommended source – Tyler was absolutely factually correct to say that "alcohol abuse" should (sometimes) be called "alcohol use disorder". Specifically, your own recommended source directly says that "alcohol abuse" is an older concept that has been replaced by "alcohol use disorder". In other words, this whole kerfuffle is based on you being concerned about someone replacing a much older (DSM-IV from 1994) term with a newer, broader category that – again, according to your own recommended source – includes (but is not limited to) the older, narrower diagnosis. Everybody who had a diagnosis of "alcohol abuse" or "alcohol dependence" in 1994 got a (single) new label called "alcohol use disorder" when DSM-V came out in 2013.

I realize that by the time people have spent a week here, it's hard to detach and look at disputes from fresh eyes. It's probably hardest for people who have been involved in the content dispute, instead of those who saw the dispute for the first time here. But I am looking at what @Lepricavark wrote ("nobody forced him to insist that everyone else was wrong") and thinking that it might be a very bad idea to proceed from the POV that not only Tyler but also your own recommended source are wrong about the facts, and that only the non-medical editors above are right.

I think the better choice here is to get this content dispute off of ANI and hand the question over to Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. Once the content dispute has been sorted out, if it turns out that editors conclude that your recommended source is wrong, then it's easy enough to come back here and ask for a ban proposal to be revived. But if it turns out that your recommended source is correct, then I hope you can agree that it would be stupid for the English Wikipedia to ban an editor for the crime of "insisting that everyone else was wrong" if "everyone" (I think I could four editors in that category, none of them with much experience in medical subjects?) turned out to actually be wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:46, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. I saw this the other day and my heart sank. Looking again, I am encouraged that at least now there has been some sensible analysis and commentary. I too am concerned that some longstanding editors/admins perpetuate a myth that our articles are required to use the terminology of our sources (which to begin with, supposes our sources are even consistent on this, something WAID's analysis demonstrates they are not). It is a really dangerous myth that gets wheeled out typically to support reverting someone trying to improve word-choices on Wikipedia in a way an editor disagrees with. It is patently false to anyone who has paraphrased a source, or tried to make a difficult topic accessible to and engaging for general audience, or done any significant amount of copy editing and prose polishing.

AN/I is not the place to have a discussion about what terminology is preferable, interchangeable, deprecated, or which words to use in which cases but not others. Nor is it appropriate for editors to make a 100 reverts and then google some sources to try to justify why they were right and an actual subject expert was wrong. As Literaturegeek and Talpedia's comments indicate, it is not clear what terminology our articles should use, and I agree with others that there is need for a discussion on this topic in a venue where the incentive is to find how best to improve our articles, and not (for crying out loud, really) for folk to start suggesting site bans. -- Colin°^Talk 19:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Is it an accepted community or administrative standard to topic ban for a content dispute without even allowing for a content RfC or discussion at the relevant WP Med project? To me this topic ban proposal is premature and ill thought out. For all we know an RfC might side for TylerDurden (or against, or neutral).--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 21:33, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Certainly there does not seem to be any community consensus that all/most of the edits made by Tyler were bad, and my impression so far is they were mass reverted solely on a "I don't like it / I didn't understand it" basis. Scrabbling around for sources to justify that mass revert looks, em, bad, especially when an offered source was so thoroughly dismantled by WAID as not saying what it was claimed to say. Even if an RFC or big discussion concluded in a way that justified some/most/all being reverted, I doesn't follow that Tyler should be topic banned (though that might be appropriate if he didn't accept the consensus and persisted afterwards). This looks much like garden variety situation where two editors disagreed on content and got hot headed about it, one of them took the other to AN/I to settle their content dispute through sanctions and mass reverts. The result, currently, is Tyler is retired, an editor who was clearly capable of producing quality medical articles.

I am really concerned that a topic ban was proposed to resolve a dispute that was far far from clear and straightforward, which quickly escalated in scope to "all of medicine" by people claiming "evidence" of wider problems (evidence that appears AFAICS to be entirely lacking wrt diffs, etc), and even a threat of a site ban. If I were an admin, I'd be recommending a few people take AN/I off their watchlists till the summer is over and they cool down. -- Colin°^Talk 07:12, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment It appears the editor has publicly retired. FrederalBacon (talk) 00:09, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  It means nothing - people do that, and come back, all the time. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support Not because of their choice of terms.... but instead because of their insistence that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong. This is not conducive to a collaborative environment. Yes- they "retired" but should they come back- they should do so with the intent to compromise and work with their fellow editors- not steamroll them and force their own opinions. Others have called them a great contributor- but a great editor does not force their opinion or obstinately insist everyone else is wrong and they are right. A great editor debates the merits, looks to see their fellow editor's sides, and tries to find a compromise that works for everyone. Until they can do that- they are prolific, not great. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• oppose per Literaturegeek it is inappropriate to topic ban a user to settle a content dispute when there is no convincing behavioural issues--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:53, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support to both proposed substance abuse topic ban because it's been going on way too long and their responses make it seem as though they don't intend to stop. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Nightenbelle and @Hey man im josh, I'm curious about your rationales. Are you assuming that Tyler's edits are factually wrong? That the correct terminology for a medical subject is just a matter of opinion anyway, so it doesn't matter if articles use outdated, imprecise, or erroneous language? Something else?

  What I'm wondering in the end is: If you saw someone putting errors into, say, a COVID-19 article, and you know they are wrong, and you fixed them, would you be satisfied if that editor came by and told you that you should "not steamroll them and force your own opinions" and "not force their opinion or obstinately insist everyone else is wrong and they are right" and "your responses make it seem as though you don't intend to stop" correcting errors and that we need to "find a compromise" – maybe a compromise that that lets them keep half the errors in the article? Somehow, I don't think you'd be satisfied with that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  The problem is that Tyler is not using proper discretion in applying the terminology to the correct places. He's mass-changing all uses of "substance abuse" and "alcohol abuse" to "substance use disorder" and "alcohol use disorder", without regard for whether the specific sources used in the specific articles do the same. It's not a synonym, it's akin to finding an article saying that a person was characterized with antisocial behavior with someone who has been formally diagnosed with Antisocial personality disorder. The first is a common term used to describe someone's personality, and does not require a medical diagnosis; the second is a documented medical disorder that does require a medical diagnosis. You can't interchange the terms, because they don't mean the same thing. It is Tyler's repeated refusal to acknowledge that different words mean different things, and the distinction here is important, that is the cause of the topic ban request. --Jayron32 16:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  According to the source recommended above, AUD is the DSM-V label that replaced both the DSM-IV label "alcohol abuse" and and the DSM-IV label "alcohol dependency". These are not "exact synonyms", but they are now considered "the same condition". Large-scale changes could therefore be appropriate, just like you might update any other disease whose preferred name has changed – Asperger's to autism (also not "exact synonyms", but still now considered "the same"), MR to intellectual disability, swine flu to H1N1, leprosy to Hansen's disease, etc.

  Of course, we never have any idea how many articles an editor looked at but passed by. Actions not taken are invisible in our system. It is therefore very easy to think that he was "mass-changing all uses" even if that's not true. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  They may be the same condition, but it's ignoring the gap between people who use substances and a alcohol and do not develop a disorder regarding them, and those that do. Substance use and alcohol use are both possible without disorder. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:17, 12 August 2022 (UTC) Follow up: I forgot to finish my statement, so I'm just editing it onto the end of my other and signing it seperately instead of using a new line. I also wonder, if the problem is the difference between DSM-IV and DSM-V definitions, the DSM-V was released 9 years ago, I'm curious to see if any of this discussion has occured on these article's talk pages regarding the change in the intervening time. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:19, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  The disputes that I've looked into involve changing the word "alcoholism" or the DSM-IV diagnostic label of "alcohol abuse" (NB: not "use") to the DSM-V label of "alcohol use disorder". None of the ones I have looked at involve non-abusive/non-disordered alcohol use. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  This dif appears to be about the article subject's father. I'm not sure that was a "DSM change" argument, since the source lists it as "Alcohol use" not "alcohol use disorder". This seems to be more of a "I don't like this phrase", and the talk page discussion on it seems to jive, considering the editor stated FMSky, please explain to me why you are reverting a simple edit to change alcohol abuse, a needless stigmatizing term, to alcohol use disorder, the actual name of the condition, and when it was pointed out that the source says alcohol abuse, not alcohol abuse disorder, the editor completely ignores that point and asks the other editor to address his points, which the editor already did by pointing out that "Disorder" is unsourced. To me, that talk page comment (especially the phrase "needlessly stigmatizing") makes it seem lot like the editor is righting the great wrongs he sees with that phrase. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  As sourced to a 29-year-old book, which (not unsurprisingly) uses 29-year-old terminology.

  We have a medical source listed in this thread that says alcohol abuse is the old name for what is now called alcohol use disorder. Tyler's correct that (as a historical fact) the name was changed by the DSM partly out of concern for stigmatizing people. If our sources are concerned about stigma, why shouldn't we follow their lead? But... maybe we should follow the advice of major professional bodies and modern sources about using current medical terminology even if there's a risk that using current terminology might have an effect on the amount of stigma that some people deal with? Why would we want to preserve outdated terms that have been directly discouraged by some of our best sources?

  Consider this parallel: "bird flu" has been officially discouraged as a name for Influenza A virus subtype H5N1. About a quarter of the sources cited in that article use the older name in their headline, and more mention it in the text of the source. But can you imagine someone edit-warring to keep as many instances of the word "bird flu" in that article, or dragging someone to ANI, just because outdated, mostly non-medical, sources use the word? I can't. But that seems to be what happened here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  You literally just proved my point for me. You pointed out, these are mainly non-medical articles with non-medical sources, implying that maybe they aren't using the medical definition when they say someone abused alcohol. So your argument is to change a non-medical source statement, on a non-medical article, with a non-medical source, to reference a medical diagnosis, and the source doesn't even say that.

  That's a big no from me. FrederalBacon (talk) 21:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  @WhatamIdoing, you make a good point, and I see where you're coming from. Unfortunately the dispute they're currently in is not black and white, this is a matter of terminology that they're refusing to budge from based on WP:SYNTH. As others have mentioned, they're not synonyms. It's not as though they're reverting misinformation being spread, they're forcing their interpretation. Their exchange with Tamzin further up, before the topic ban proposal section, is what pushed me over the edge to voice my support.

  I think the user has made some good contributions, but Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. They're being combative and aggressive while refusing to acknowledge that the complaint against them might have some semblance of validity. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  And others are being combative and aggressive while refusing to acknowledge that the complaint against them might have some semblance of validity.

  I'm working on the content-related RFC questions now, and I'm looking at the possibility that the conclusion will be that Tyler will be vindicated on the content question. In a couple of months, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles#Careful language could have a sentence that says "Use current terminology, even if the cited source uses outdated language. For example, the current term Alcohol Use Disorder should be preferred to both Alcohol abuse and Alcohol dependence, and Autism should be preferred to all of the older terms it replaced, including Asperger syndrome, Classic autism, and Pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified."

  If that happens, are you going to be thinking "Huh. I voted to ban a guy for doing exactly that." WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• This has been proposed for 9 days now, maybe an admin can read consensus, close and implement whatever needs implementing, please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing from user:CABF45

Reported user is actively disrupting the Ice cream article trying to push Chinese contribution to the history of that food. They refuse to achieve consensus on the talk.

• Reported user adds content with unreliable sources
• reported user is reverted for copy vio by another user
• Reported user begins with an aggressive tone a discussion on the talk page of the user who reverted them and threatened to add back the content [19] while being said that this content is not improving the article [20].
• Other users said that the content added by the reported user is not relevant for the article [21]
• Reported user seems unable to find out if a source has expertise for a topic or not and refuses to listen when other users try to inform them about that (several times) [22], [23], [24], [25], [26]
• Reported user added again some content while claiming that the source for their edit is a food historian, i reverted them with an explanation on why their source isn't reliable and left a message on the talk about that and finally warned the user, their reaction was to ignore WP:BRD and to revert my edit and post two warnings on my talk [27], [28].

All in all, when i look at CABF45's contributions, i don't see any will of improving the article and, more generally, the project.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:07, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Since when is the BBC News an "unreliable source"? After clarifying that this was the children site of BBC News I didn't add back the content.
• I was accused of copyright violation. Please check the link and the edit summary and make up your mind whether it was warranted or not. Also reverting editor calls me a halfwit while trying to discuss. I "threatened to add back the content" after further tweaking it which is what we do when accused with CopyVio.
• I added ABC-CLIO and Royal Society of Chemistry sources, which weren't good enough, because they were not so-called "food historians".
• Now I'm adding a historian (published by John Wiley & Sons) who wrote seventeen(!) books on history, cuisine and the French regional culture, but he reverts it again, because Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat is still not food historian enough.
• Several reliable and relevant references claim a Chinese origin of ice cream, but User:Wikaviani only accepts the Iranian origin of it.
• Do we really want to be in disagreement with Encyclopædia Britannica as they too seem to favor the Chinese origin of ice cream.
• However, User:Wikaviani accepts a book published by none other than RW Press only because it supports the "Iranian origin" narrative.

CABF45 (talk) 13:19, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Britannica does not claim a "Chinese origin" of ice cream, it only says that iced desserts were introduced to Europe from the east. Besides, it has been said unreliable as a source by an admin, Doug Weller. Last but not least, as explained to you many times, Wikipedia works with consensus and i don't see any for your edits.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:26, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Britannica says:

Iced desserts were introduced into Europe from the East. Marco Polo brought back descriptions of fruit ices from his travels in China.

That's fair enough for me: Would you keep it or would you disruptively remove it?

When did Doug Weller say that Britannica is unreliable? CABF45 (talk) 13:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I rest my case, i leave it to the admins. Best.~~ ---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:36, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Just to answer to your above comments, firstly, "when did Doug Weller say that Britannica is unreliable ?", here.

"However, User:Wikaviani accepts a book published by none other than RW Press only because it supports the "Iranian origin" narrative." odd how you seem to ignore the other source written by a food historian, Gil Marks and also this edit of mines where i say that i don't support any sharp claim like X or Y invented ice cream ... I usually assume good faith, but i confess that in your case, it doesn't seem obvious to me.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

So Doug Weller treated Britannica as an unreliable source in 2017. First, how should I know that? Second, he still thinks that way and all of Wikipedia should throw out Britannica from now on?

(On the Gil Marks source see more below.) CABF45 (talk) 01:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Many articles from Britannica are written by the editors of Britannica (like the one you cited by the way), this makes that encyclopedia unreliable, some articles are written by expert sources, they are generally considered reliable, but this is not our point here, this report is about your disruptive editing and inability to find out if a source is reliable or not along with POV pushing and refusal to listen what other editors tell you. Just one example, i said i disagree with your last edit at Ice cream and so did Spudlace below, if you were here to build an encyclopedia, you would have self reverted and tried to achieve consensus on the article's talk page.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:09, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I engaged in discussion on the talk page throughout the process even if you're trying to give the impression that I didn't.

You only accept sources that support the Iranian origin of ice cream. Remember when Spudlace tried to remove the history section and export it into frozen desserts, you simply reverted him (without seeking concensus). CABF45 (talk) 02:23, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I reverted Spudlace and i stand for that by WP:ONUS, the onus is on the editor who makes new edits to achieve consensus (in other words, Spudlace) and i did so because they did a terrible job, leaving the section without historical informations and with many cites errors, i told them that and i feel like they got me, but this report is not about Spudlace, it's about you.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:53, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

And another editor also had problems with the history section, there's still Template:Self-contradictory placed on the history section for a reason. So "consensus" seems more and more like the will of User:Wikaviani. CABF45 (talk) 03:01, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The template has nothing to do with my edits or Spudlace's edits, Andy explained the reason for it on the article's talk page, your comment sounds like a nonsense. Also, that editor had a clash with you and your edits, you seem to ignore that, once more.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I do agree with Andy on the usage of the Template:Self-contradictory at the history section even if we had an unrelated "clash". I don't know what you consider nonsense, just read Andy's explanation of why he thinks much of the history section should be redone.

Again: the present "consensus" version means the will of User:Wikaviani, neither AndytheGrump nor Spudlace wanted to keep it as it is. CABF45 (talk) 04:04, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

When User:Wikaviani is warned (and again) that the Gil Marks source he pushes is not exactly relevant, he simply ignores it and forces it into the article anyway.
He also tries to create above the impression that I didn't listen to the discussion and just went on editing. I abandoned several above mentioned references even when I considered them reliable and relevant.
User:Spudlace effectively begged User:Wikaviani to stop guarding this article. CABF45 (talk) 14:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I've had disagreements with User:Wikaviani on this article but not pertaining to this new dispute. I did mention on the talk page that I think some of these sources pass reliability, but I don't support inclusion of CABF45's contested edit, as it is currently written. CABF45 has chosen to ignore my input, which I don't take personally. From what I can see, the content about China is still in article. So far, I think all the editors are sincere by trying to improve the article. Spudlace (talk) 14:59, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment : at the end of the day, Spudlace recognised the relevance of the source and my edits [29].---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:26, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Dear Spudlace and Wikaviani, as to the solution of the content dispute, could you live with this proposal per WP:Balance:

Multiple sources claim the ice cream is of Chinese origin, while multiple other references suggest an Iranian origin.

Adding references respectively, and done. CABF45 (talk) 02:41, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

No, because ice cream is not either Chinese or Iranian, it's the result of a long and multicultural process that is quite well explained in the article (at least, before your last edit). This noticeboard is not the article's talk page, thus, not the relevant place for this discussion.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:57, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that for you "this long and multicultural process" always starts with Iran even when multiple reliable sources claim it started in China. That's why I cited WP:Balance. CABF45 (talk) 03:15, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

No, the problem is that so far, not a single editor has agreed with any of your edits at Ice cream, yet you keep pushing your POV with unreliable sources, refuse to listen to what other editors say, ignore Wikipedia guidelines even when other editors remind you about that. I rest my case. Goodnight.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:31, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I used more reliable sources than the ones you're pushing. Spudlace agreed with using the ABC-CLIO source, it was you who went against concensus, but I didn't want an edit war.

I would agree with Spudlace's proposal to completely remove most of the history section, and only deal with the modern history of ice cream, I just didn't want to start an edit war with you.

I also perfectly understand why Andy placed the Template:Self-contradictory on the history section, it was you who wanted to remove that template. CABF45 (talk) 03:38, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

@ Closing admin: Please read Talk:Ice_cream carefully as some of the diffs provided by User:Wikaviani are quite misleading. Thank you. CABF45 (talk) 18:58, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Since my brief involvement in this nonsense has been brought up here, I might as well express an opinion on the problems with this article. And start by repeating what I wrote earlier on my talk page: ...I don't think that we should necessarily hold one contributor solely responsible for the mess in the ice cream article history section. Sadly, content concerning the history of food tends to attract all sorts of POV-pushers (often motivated by nationalism), and to be based around questionable sources written more for entertainment than accuracy... It seems to me that contributors to the article are working under a false premise: that it is possible to state who 'invented ice cream' in any definitive manner. One can certainly find sources that make such definitive claims, but them doing so does little to inspire confidence in their validity as sources. When does 'frozen dessert' (which presumably dates back to when some enterprising, or possibly lost, hominid first gathered fruit in frozen regions) become 'ice cream'? And even if there was a single agreed definition of exactly what constitutes ice cream (I've not seen one), how likely is it that such an event would be recorded for posterity? The most that credible historians can say about the subject is that frozen desserts of one form or another were reported in place X or Y at date Z. And maybe suggest that some such descriptions seem to match what would now resemble 'ice cream'. That isn't an assertion that said dessert was 'invented' anywhere in particular, merely that it was described. Wikipedia contributors shouldn't engage themselves in trying to provide definitive answers to 'historical questions' that actual historians should know better than to try to answer. Trying to do so so is not only a disservice to readers, but a fool's errand, since it inevitably results in the sort of ongoing disagreements we see here, usually only 'resolved' by seeing who can make the most stubborn pig-headed and repetitive arguments, and drive anyone else away from the debate. If 'winning' that way is what matters, frankly Wikipedia could do better without such contributors. And said contributors might do well to ask themselves whether they could find better things to do with their lives... AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:17, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

That's a mature comment, my 2 cents...

I offered a compromise per WP:Balance, I also offered the removal of the "ancient history of ice cream" like Spudlace did earlier.

User:Wikaviani rejected both of those solutions in the name of the Iranian origin narrative... CABF45 (talk) 14:34, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I have explained my reasons above and they have nothing to do with "the Iranian origin narrative" ... ---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:35, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Then why don't you support the compromise?

The Chinese origin is supported by Encyclopædia Britannica, an ABC-CLIO, a Royal Society of Chemistry and a John Wiley & Sons reference.

The Iranian origin is supported by an RW Press source and Gil Marks.

(Yes, I know, Gil Marks is a "food historian", who mostly wrote cookbooks. However, Christopher Cumo (ABC-CLIO) is a historian of agriculture, and Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat did write A History of Food, which John Wiley & Sons decided to publish. That's good enough for me. I also think that natural sciences - including chemistry - have been crucial in the development of the ice cream, so I would also keep the Royal Society of Chemistry source.)

We could also remove the ancient history section and start with the discovery of the endothermic effect as AndytheGrump suggested. CABF45 (talk) 03:00, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

All this has been discussed already and the current version of the article is the result of a consensus, your insistance to bring back the same tired unreliable sources for this topic is for the least disruptive. @Admins : you can close this without action, at your discretion. I am not interested to discuss this matter with a user who fails to get the point.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:05, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

The "consensus" is you agreeing with User:Spudlace. (For now. As pointed out above, Spudlace had very different plans for this article originally.) User:AndytheGrump is also in disagreement with your "consensus", just read his take above.

So we are throwing out Encyclopædia Britannica, an ABC-CLIO, a Royal Society of Chemistry and a John Wiley & Sons reference, while we are keeping RW Press and Gil Marks.

I agree: Admins, please close this without action, this has been a content dispute masquerading as an ANI Report. CABF45 (talk) 04:35, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

This report has never been about a content dispute, it's about an editor (you) repeatedly adding unsourced/poorly sourced content.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:12, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I never added unsourced content, and it was you who decided what was properly sourced and what not. WP:OWN. CABF45 (talk) 00:50, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

said the guy who has been reverted by all the other involved editors ...---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

You too have been reverted by other editors. As said above, Spudlace originally wanted to remove most of the history section, User:AndytheGrump still does.

User:Spudlace effectively begged User:Wikaviani to stop guarding this article.

Spudlace warned Wikaviani (and again) that the Gil Marks source he pushes is not exactly relevant.

You have now a temporary ceasefire with Spudlace which you call 'consensus'. CABF45 (talk) 04:17, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Always the same tired arguments like "Spudlace begged Wikaviani ...", people may disagree at the beginning of the process, but since on Wikipedia, editors work primarily with consensus, they discuss in order to achieve said consensus, which is what happened between me and the two other editors. The only one who has not any consensus for his edits, is you, all your edits were reverted by 3 different users, thus please spare me your chatter about begging and WP:OWN.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 04:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

AndytheGrump doesn't have a "consensus" with you, just read his take above.
Your edits have been reverted by two different users, plus you also had a debate with AndytheGrump regarding the Template: Self-contradictory placed at the history section. That's quite the difference.
When there are 4 editors arguing on the talk page and 2 agree, it's a stretch to talk about "consensus."
You also forget that I abandoned sources that I still consider reliable only because of said "consensus". (ABC-CLIO, Royal Society of Chemistry.)
BTW, @admins, I quote User:Wikaviani from just above: @Admins : you can close this without action, at your discretion. CABF45 (talk) 06:18, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Yae4, brought by 84.250.14.116 (talk)

Yae4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I did not want to bring up User:Yae4 to ANI here because I have been an involved editor and User:Yae4 assumes good faith in many things for the best of a well referenced encyclopedia, but occasionally their chronic behaviors, requests for administrative actions and maintenance tagging upsets and frustrates many (involved) editors. What finally prompted me to start this ANI case was an uninvolved editor 1's comment about User:Yae4's behaviors, about an article I have never edited. Below is an excerpt.

1. Special:Diff/1102095113/1102120554

Editor 1, addressing User:Yae4: Your behaviour is contrary to assume good faith and I consider it direct attack against editors. ​

2. Special:Diff/1095874907/1096398509

IP editor 2, suspected undisclosed connections (COI) and IP sock of a stale Wikipedia account I can't disclose due to WP:OUTING. Not the most civil example of discussion in a dispute, but lays out problematic issues with User:Yae4's behaviors.

3. Special:Diff/975693856

Editor 3, but stale (August 2020). You're repeatedly making unsupported changes based on your incorrect interpretations and assumptions. You keep accusing others of doing what you are doing which is writing content not matching the sources. ​

4. Special:Diff/1096634558

Editor 4: I have zero intentions on "causing confusion" and suddenly jumping to such a conclusion doesn't really appear to be you trying to WP:AGF and assume I'm somehow trying to cause issues. It would be nice if you could come at me with a less demeaning tone. ​

5. Special:Diff/1101770944

IP editor 5: Disputed, though I agree as an involved editor with this comment and the consensus exists. What on Earth? No, interpretations of statements that may or may not have been made by the project lead are not "basic facts" in the vein layed out by WP:PRIMARY. Besides, I thought the broad consensus of this talk page, and particularly the "open source" label discussion, has been that you do not have WP:NPOV on this point.

6. Special:Diff/1102580184

IP editor 5 commenting on User:Yae4 derailing discussions: I find it strange you're so holed up on this point. This is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

7. Special:Diff/1101089878, Special:Diff/1101359618/1101443894

Editor 6 (SPA), while not the most civil, accuses of bias, WP:NPOV and hints WP:CIR.

8. Special:Diff/1094629670

IP editor 7: Dispute, but summarizing statements and sources given by User:Yae4: That's not what the three user-generated sources you added said.

Several administrative cases have been raised by User:Yae4 they've been in dispute with, but none with administrative action taken against the accused (the editors User:Yae4 has been in dispute with). These discussions also involve frustrated editors (some by nature), and greatly waste editors' (and administrators') time and attention away from improving articles.

• 9. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive415#User:Pitchcurve reported by User:Yae4 (Result: )
• 10. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive456#User:84.250.14.116 reported by User:Yae4 (Result: )
• 11. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1103#Editor 84.250.14.116 behavior
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1103#Editors EndariV and "Jann ruhe" behavior, and Yae4
• 12. Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Archive/2022/06#GrapheneOS, in response to (most likely) IP editor 7's edits. Result: User:Yae4 partially blocked for 1 week for edit-warring, no page protection increase.
• 13. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Resonantia/Archive
• 14. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Strcat/Archive

I'm quite certain User:Yae4 is well versed and aware of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and should have been instructed several times how to behave, either on article talk namespaces or on their user talk page directly. I don't know what the most appropriate corrective action could be taken here to address User:Yae4 behavior.

As a side-mention, User:Yae4 has been previously banned from climate change topics in 2020, due to arbitration enforcement.

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive265#Yae4

Reasons for arbitration included, invalid tags, Addition of synthesis, disruptive article edits and talk space activism promoting idiosyncratic and non-mainstream views which I concern is still happening to-date in other article(s) (which I've been involved in). The latest example of the "talk page activism" may be found at Talk:GrapheneOS, focusing their talk page discussions and views on "not to use sources" in several unrelated discussions, despite editors disagreeing with the view (although I think some of his points warrant some due weight, but better sourcing), although there are also several good examples of editing, discussion and criticism from User:Yae4.

Please keep comments on-topic and civil here. If you have a complaint about my behavior, please discuss it in a new section.

Pinging @Yae4 for awareness of ANI, because they have requested me to not personally leave messages or {{subst:AN-notice}} on their talk page. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 21:32, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Yae4 response

This complaint is because I politely informed

84.250.14.116 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

they appeared to be routinely violating WP:3RR at GrapheneOS. They not only made a joke of it,[30] but responded by bringing us here, again; falsely accusing me of "adding invalid information".[31], and only lastly discussing it at Talk:GrapheneOS where content discussion belongs. If you wish, I can add a list of sockpuppets blocked because I brought them to attention, or a list "difficulties" involved with 84.250.14.116 and their many claimed other IPs, but it seems like a waste of time. -- Yae4 (talk) 01:20, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment: Usually I would completely WP:AGF and not even check your Diffs and summaries, but something smelled fishy by "IP editor 7", so I'm making an exception. "IP editor 7" is you, 84.250.14.116. That's misleading to call a "7th editor". If you don't mind, I'll add some notes and comments inline. Reminder: I have been editing GrapheneOS since before published, helped it get published and in WP:DYK. I miss the days of cooperative collaboration and polite disagreemnts with Newslinger. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

1. GreatDer. I thank them for their less promotional approach, but on balance, they do seem to ignore obvious rules, most recently on Murena disambiguation where they wish to include "Murena" phones before there is an article. Please read the full exchange; this summary is very one-sided. As I responded there, Special:Diff/1102136403 "Great, you personal attack then you mention of WP:AGF. See WP:CYCLE. It is unfortunate the leaders of /e/ and associated shell companies have abused Wikipedia for many years: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Indidea/Archive and continue by recruiting." -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

2. 142.126.170.15: Another IP and likely sock, from Toronto, home of GrapheneOS. False accusations with zero basis should carry zero weight. Maybe their behavior deserves the sanctions, but Admins did not see it, or explain why not. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

3. Pitchcurve: example of editors who "know" the truth for sure, but don't bring sources. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

4. EndariV (see their comments below). I warned them for promotional edits and unhelpfully sticking Talk comments in a random place. They responded badly. Note: in Special:Diff/1099615786, you warned them for "Battlegrounding" changed to "Edit warring". -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

5. 98.97.32.199, and they said also 71.212.97.11 and 75.172.38.252, over short times, leading to confusion as they acknowledged at their Talk. I warned about WP:COI. They responded badly. You said to them: I too was about to ask if you have undisclosed connections to GrapheneOS (you seem to have a lot of knowledge from involvement or a device with GrapheneOS installed for expressing statements and deeper knowledge of the subject on the talk page" -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

6. Multiple IP user again: You again selectively quote to make it look worse. They also thanked me: "Thanks for catching the republishers, I've removed those sources."

6. There is an open, unresolved content dispute regarding what primary-source statements will be included, from GrapheneOS website, from GrapheneOS and Micay GitHub posts, and for completeness but little discussed, from GrapheneOS and Micay Twitter, with due respect to WP:RSPTWITTER requirements. GrapheneOS promoters want to include all the one-sided claims of excellence, but ignore all the difficulties with other projects, and statements that other projects are not welcome to use GrapheneOS sources. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

7. Again, false accusations with zero basis from WP:COI SPAs should carry zero weight. Regarding WP:CIR: With all due respect, I've had a feeling English is not your first language, and is a potential source of our misunderstandings. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

8. "7" 84.250.14.116 Were you trying to make this look like an additional, independent complaint? This is also, and a good, typical example of how you deal with content discussions - vaguely, leaving difficulty understanding what you really favor. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

9. 2020 (Stale) -- Yae4 (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

10. As discussed above, 84.250.14.116 continues reverting and otherwise undoing other editors with little restraint. Warning them was the immediate precursor to them coming here. -- Yae4 (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

11. Really one recent Incident. -- Yae4 (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

12. EndariV comment below also supports page protection for GrapheneOS (though not sure they understand what it means). -- Yae4 (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

13. Two sockpuppets, Anonymous526 and Anonymous874 were blocked; one was unblocked after promising to stop puppeting. -- Yae4 (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

14. 2020 (Stale), but also had admission of WP:COI by Anupritaisno1: Special:Diff/975735744, and Strcat (Micay alias) "abandoned" that account, noted by Admin. -- Yae4 (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

15. I try to learn from the bad experiences and improve my sourcing. Yes, GrapheneOS had some poor sources, and I have accepted blame and tried to correct the mistakes. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

84.250.14.116

84.250.14.116 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• This IP became, in essence, a very active WP:SPA at GrapheneOS around the time Micay/GrapheneOS tweeted about Wikipedia.[32]

• Looking at their global activities,[33] they also edited several GrapheneOS wikidata properties, including their other communication channels - IRC and Matrix.[34][35] On the one hand, it could be random coincidence, and a suddenly very interested editor digging into details. On the other hand, it is consistent with responding to "a call" recruiting editors to GrapheneOS. -- Yae4 (talk) 17:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

• Canvassing? I am not a wiki-lawyer, but 84.250.14.116's several bcc's in this complaint look like WP:INAPPNOTE Inappropriate Canvassing - partisan, and not very transparent. I saw no other bcc's in this Noticeboard page; I did not search archives.

• Recent Admin interaction at User_talk:84.250.14.116 you be the judge: Special:Diff/1099480315/1101250029. Sorry in advance to Bbb23 for this transparent ping.

• Editing styles: Their approach of many, many sequential edits to GrapheneOS may be using a loophole around WP:3RR, as other editors like me wait until they are finished to avoid edit conflicts. I understand my style of fewer, bigger (when needed) edits, causes some angst for some other editors.

-- Yae4 (talk) 23:55, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Statements

EndariV

I've moved on from attempting to edit GrapheneOS well over two weeks ago purely because Yae4's behavior is so mentally tiring and there needs to be some admin intervention here.

If Yae4 is not going to get any restrictions, GrapheneOS needs to be semi-protected at minimum because their behavior has driven away plenty of other editors and they have an awfully obvious non-neutral POV including some blatantly obvious offenses such as Special:Diff/1102122284 (I don't even know what this has to do with the article and seems extremely cherrypicked just to make people scared of GrapheneOS, but I'm not wasting my energy on Yae4's draining behavior) with very twisted and editorialized wording which only paints the article a bad image to newcomers. And Yae4 is very revert-happy on neutral, informative things about the topic of GrapheneOS which even another IP editor pointed out in Special:Diff/1102574120 which was an absurd amount of content removed for no valid reason even when much effort was put in at Talk:GrapheneOS for a lot of that content. (P.S. I'm only replying here because Wikipedia notified me of a ping here...) EndariV (talk) 01:35, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I think 84.250.14.116 also supports removing most of the material, as we were trying to minimize primary sources and summarize secondary sources, not cherry-pick selected info' from sources. As said above, sometimes they are vague on what they support, so yes, you are correct, it does waste a lot of energy. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Greatder

Yae4 is a tough editor to deal with. I have interacted with the person in GrapheneOS, Murena, /e/ Operating System page, Tor (network)([36]), Tor Phone, you can see the history and talk page for all the interactions. For example on Tor Phone he reverted third opinion edit by me and then prolonged the article with unrelated info. Similar problem happened in the Tor network / Tor Project article.(I had edit warred so when I was threatened with a block I stopped editing). On Murena it is clear that the term exists and other users support my redirect saying it may become notable in future but Yae4 just keeps removing it. Yae4 reminds me of Fram net has net positive edit, but net negative community contribution. Greatder (talk) 17:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC) Updated 10 August.

• I was just informed of this complaint (link), which I have not read in full (no time, sorry). But I will say this: as the admin who had p-blocked Yae4 for violating 3RR recently on the page/s in question, I've experienced similar WP:BLUDGEON and WP:IDHT from them at that time. They may well be right on the content (I have no idea), but irrespectively of that, I found them to have been exhausting to deal with, so that was it for me (diff). Though, wtf is Yae4 reminds me of Fram net positive edit, net negative community contribution about, Greatder? El_C 17:32, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment: You gave me 7 days block for a first block, which seemed heavy handed, after only cursory review. (aside from "climate change", which is a whole special topic of its own) -- Yae4 (talk) 23:55, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Yae4, maybe I missed it, but I don't recall that being something you raised in that AN3 report (link). But had you asked me about that then, I would have told you that this block duration was neither heavy handed nor exceptional in any way. Rather, that for first 3RR vio blocks, it's standard practice to issue a one week p-block, which leaves the user ample time to engage the talk page (and before p-block existed, it was 24 hours site-wide). Further, just like in that report, you again mention climate change, and just like in that report, my answer remains the same: that I neither remember what that was about, nor do I see how it's germane to any of this (special topic though it may be). El_C 03:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

On Fram, basically Yae is hard deal with between enormous amount of reverted edits(I acknowledge lot of it is CoI, IP edits. But lots of legitimate edits are reverted by them too.) and constant bludgeon and idht. Greatder (talk) 04:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Uh, what? What a weird non-answer, Greatder. Are we expected to somehow guess whatever grievances you have against Fram (←ping this time) so as to warrant you mentioning him here? I've no idea why you've decided, seemingly randomly, to cast aspersions upon him, but I don't like it, and I think it reflects poorly on you. El_C 06:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

@El C I only knew about Fram from news articles. I know that people were upset about his behaviour even though he contributed edits that helped make articles better. Yae4 may have upgraded a lot of articles, but I take issue with the editors behaviour and thus the mension nothing special about fram. Greatder (talk) 14:58, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Greatder, well, he is a real person, so, in general, it's best to not to mention something, or someone, whom you obviously lack the competence to draw comparisons from. The WP:FRAM saga has zero to do with any of this, even less so than Yae4's climate change or whatever. Also, I presume that, like myself, English isn't your native tongue, but you need to better proofread your comments as they are rather challenging to read through (i.e. broken English) and this is the English Wikipedia. El_C 16:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry if I suggested fram has anything to do with this.(he doesn't) I have striken that part. Greatder (talk) 16:36, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• GreatDer edits of my comments: I object because it reduced understanding IMO. There should have been no confusion given the usual talk page indentation, but I planned to highlight my inline comments and copy-paste 84.250.14.116 signatures for EEng or when/if an Admin asked, and I had time. In future, I suggest following the spirit of WP:TPO and "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning". EEng is not an Admin, AFAIK.Special:UserRights/EEng I am now aware of WP:INTERPOLATE, but I saw no objection by 84.250.14.116. That said, thanks for at least making the effort to number the comments. -- Yae4 (talk) 23:55, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  It was a pain to relist, but if you can put the sign in the proper places you can relist.(Please don't revert not again) Greatder (talk) 15:00, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Canvassing too?: Do you think admins are not "watching" this page? WP:INAPPNOTE but kudos for at least being more transparent.[37][38][39][40] -- Yae4 (talk) 23:55, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  Yup, cause only one admin came and it was one of 3 I pinged :) I pinged people who have interacted with you of course. Greatder (talk) 16:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

84.250.14.116 (OP)

I agree with some sentiments about bludgeoning and WP:IDHT raised by others (El C). But reading the counter-arguments from User:Yae4 on this noticeboard is also tiresome and a timewaste for me to argue back. I will not make a proposal for resolution myself, but if desired, I'll remind the Wikipedia community (non-administrators included) can propose administrative resolutions by consensus. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 01:58, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Who's on first?

Yae4, don't interlard your responses within others' posts, because it makes it impossible to tell who's saying what. Undo what you did and respond below the original post. EEng 00:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Or not. EEng 15:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I am going to relist it with numbers. Greatder (talk) 16:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@EEng How does it look? Greatder (talk) 16:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Talk page flame warrior not learning anything

User:J1DW was previously blocked for incivility and has continued to be uncivil (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Deep_state_in_the_United_States&diff=prev&oldid=1073917568) and generally disrupt talk pages with not even wrong nonsense (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1102613760). I think this is pretty clearly WP:NOTHERE behavior. Dronebogus (talk) 05:59, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

• I disagree that it is WP:NOTHERE behavior. He can be overly aggressive, but the contribs that I've looked at, he is talking about improving the articles, he is raising issues that arguably have merit. The way he is doing it can be abrasive, but I'm not sure it is uncivil. He would benefit from dialing back the intensity and verbosity. There are some issues, but I think you may be overstating it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
  • I agree with Dennis, I think he's making valid points. Arguments getting heated is to be expected when working in topics such as these, but it doesn't rise to the level of sanctionable incivility. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 20:03, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

    Calling people “jackass” and promoting ludicrous conspiracy theories after being sanctioned once isn’t WP:NOTHERE? Dronebogus (talk) 09:41, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't know about NOTHERE, but the signal to noise ratio on their talk page contribs is heavy on the uncivil noise. I would prefer to see a civility warning than inaction here. If we think the user is worth keeping around, a warning serves to either prompt improvement or save time if they're brought here again soon for similar issues. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:04, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Troublesome IP editors in articles about Mesopotamian deities

In a number of articles about Mesopotamian deities, including Nergal (got locked until the end of August due to this activity), Hadad, Resheph, Ištaran, Nindara, Anat and more, a range of IPs (which might belong to a single user but I cannot verify this; the pattern of action is always similar, though) engage in disruptive editing, mostly involving attempts to force original research into them, though sometimes also rendering the infoboxes difficult to use by adding images through means other than the infobox template (see the Anat article earlier today for a recent example). The edits usually involve attempts at proving completely unrelated deities are identical (the fact it ultimately always boils down to the same two deities is what made me suspect this might be a single person at work), and typically twist sources already provided in the article to support the opposite of what they actually say (for a very recent and rathet blatant example, see the Anat article again, where they try to prove an article by a well established expert in the field, Jo Ann Hackett, explicitly advising researchers to avoid describing goddesses as interchangeable, actually justifies their own "research" relying on this very assumption). Often they attribute own thoughts to credible authors, the content of whose publications is easy to verify. They also randomly copy paste references from articles without adding the corresponding entry to the bibliography, and without crediting the article they copy pasted from appropriately. In some cases, this makes actual work which needs to be carried out (which there is a lot of, many articles about this topic are stubs or rely on fringe or outdated sources) incredibly difficult. Their additions typically have little to do with the section of the article they add their original research to, as well (for example in the Nergal article they added their ideas about cities of Marad and Kish, both in historical Babylonia, to a section discussing Nergal's relation to deities outside Mesopotamia altogether). Furthermore, these anonymous users (or user) appear to never use the talk page, and instead will randomly edit articles in inconsequential ways (ex. changing punctuation) to leave notes for other users in the edit summary. The notes are often rude but that's beside the point, my key issue is meritorical. I avoid bothering Wikipedia higher ups most of the time and simply contribute silently, but this problem has been ongoing since early summer and it is getting difficult to deal with. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

@HaniwaEnthusiast: Please provide the specific IP ranges and diffs; you must also notify the IP users ot their talk page using {{subst:ANI notice}}.

The most recent IP editors to the Anat article were 93.35.64.127 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 93.44.2.238 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 93.35.64.63 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 93.36.40.77 (talk · contribs · WHOIS); the last of whom left several complaints about you at their talk page. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:16, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah that's the same person, I see they have been notified on one of their numerous talk pages by anoher user (well, you) already, thanks. Their complaint boils down to being unable to add unsourced or poorly sourced information (typically lifted from articles over a century old, or obtained by completely misinterpreting sources - see the Anat article, they quite literally try to make Hackett's article say the opposite of what it does) to articles into which others poured, at times, weeks of work. I should also note they appear to operate on the assumption I am male which is not true and I would prefer to not be labeled this way. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 06:59, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

This appears to be a new user who doesn't understand referencing rules or WP:OR. I've tried to direct them to WP:REFB and WP:BRD as a start, and pointed them towards the article talk page. as Anat is now semi protected they will hopefully engage at the talk page. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 10:19, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

They more or less learned to cite but they still add original research to articles as of today. See Nindara. They found a century old snippet, added a google books source more or less properly (though without bothering to find the author or any such details, they are pointless after all), and then followed it up with made up explanation. Also note that there is no such a deity as "Išhanna" in any credible modern publication, nor is Ishara or Inanna connected to Nindara. Their editing continues to be disruptive. The fact that wikipedia articles about Mesopotamian deities were seldom particularly rigorous does not justify original research and presenting long outdated articles as facts. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 11:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I never said they did, but neither do I have any knowledge of the area. For reference they are at 93.36.42.245 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) today. It might be useful to ask for semi protection on their other usual targets until they understand the issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:42, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I tried with another of their targets and the results were mixed, I will try with Nindara though. Also: note the scope of the problem is likely goes well beyond what I am aware of (iirc you pointed out yesterday that they were active in the Baal article, for example), I do not "patrol" every ANE deity page contrary to what they seem to imagine, and the field has very few active editors to monitor what is happening with individual pages. Unsourced original research is incredibly common though few users engaging in it are this persistent. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 12:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Further update: on my talk page, under a host of new IPs, most recently 93.35.65.19, the user confirmed directly they see no issue with breaking Wikipedia rules on reliable sources and original research, and they appear to be motivated by a strange agenda tied to Siciliy. The lack of credibility of Albright specifically has been highlighted by users more familiar with Bible scholarship than I am for example on the page Talk:Anat and I do not believe the argument needs to be repeated here. It is abnundantly clear the user does not show willingness to learn and will continue to add unsourced, poorly sourced and outdated information to articles, ignore talk pages of them and attribute own views to other authors. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 11:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Continued Harassment, Personal Attacks and Uncivil comments, restoring removed threats on my talk page again and again by User:Hongqilim

It's been more than One and half days now, User:Hongqilim crossed the whole limits and putting all the energy on personal attacks, harassment, vandalising my talk page. This has been gone to a whole different level now! Every 5 minutes after, I get a threat and I am totally frustrated now! See, WP:DRRC, it has now gone beyond that!

*Everytime I remove threats, User:Hongqilim post it again and again and again. It is now frustrating to see such User exists! Here is my talk page history [41]

*And still now, User:Hongqilim is posting these Special:Diff/1103067110, Special:Diff/1103066036, Special:Diff/1103065049

*Reverting my revert on my Talk page Special:Diff/1103065049, Special:Diff/1103068406

*Restoring removed threats

*Using loads of derogatory comments and loads of personal attacks on me.

*Commenting on different sections of Talk page which is completely different from this issue!

*WP:ADMINSHOPPING with using references by restoring previously removed sections of my talk page and rephrasing words and then teaming up with editors who had a different issue addressed on my talk page.

Following WP:RPA I removed all threats again and again but my talk page vandalism continues. Put warning on User talk:Hongqilim but this is continuing like a rollercoaster now.

All of the incident start with a revert of this edit Special:Diff/763184178, which I labelled as Vandalism because User:Hongqilim deliberately introduced wrong numbers which I calculated and the prev version stands out to be correct and the wrong version kept on adding in each year like a Chain reaction, I reverted it Special:Diff/1102841903 with an edit summary which is mandatory to put to explain the changes I have done, quoting "(reverted vandalism by User:Hongqilim, Special:Contributions/103.169.215.63)" I could use rv/v instead but the meaning remains the same.

I didn't put any warning template because this edit was almost 5 yrs back so I refrained form doing so! Now, it comes User:Hongqilim with this Section on my talk page User talk:Sneha04#Vandalism on Commonwealth Games articles, (although now the limit is crossed, User:Hongqilim using multiple section and restoring previously removed section of my talk page, and commenting on them.) I replied with enough clarify that Users making such deliberate vandalism blatantly should have no room to speak on! I welcome co-operation and already collaborating with some more editors under Wikiproject Commonwealth to reverify pages, but I call out this edit as obvious vandalism on edit summary which is different from disruptive editing as it made more than enough blatant disruption to Project's purpose! But things doesn't stop here, User:Hongqilim continues to put energy to make new section and continue harassments.

Now,

• "he has already started to act as if he is an admin.", I don't know which part of my reply seemed to be like an Admin yet not clarified by User:Hongqilim, (BTW, I don't like to get presumption of my gender that's why I myself use neutral phrase instead of gender pronouns something like this WP:GENDER)
• "Think you are a powerful user? Prove to the admins you are! Don't say I didn't tell you, You cannot take my freedoms away! I am not convinced you are the powerful user you claim yourself to be.", I don't know why to establish myself as "powerful user"
• "Why bother other people's business when you can mind your own?"
• "Remember that you are not mighty and like me" I don't want to be mighty, Wikipedia is collaborative platform and not a place of introducing deliberate disruption!
• "Do you need help? What is your problem? If old edits can be labelled as vandalism, then what am I even doing here?" I already clarified the reason for calling it vandalism so no reason to ask it again and again!

And a loads of comments are there!

• Questioning whether my gender can face like a man. See here
• Showing experience criteria, See here "Are you living in a world of fantasy? Why are you fantasising yourself as an admin when you are just a less than a year User."

After all these, User:Hongqilim went on to WP:FORUMSHOPPING to get a favour from two different Admin's talk page, User talk:Abecedare#Commonwealth Games Vandalism and User talk:Moneytrees#Commonwealth Games Vandalism! Using evidences by restoring different deleted section from my talk page history which have whole different issue and then rephrasing those words for teaming up and meatpuppeting with User:Silverdragon3002 to go on a campaign against me. And the endless threats and WP:HUSH on my talk page goes on.
Sneha04 ^💬 08:28, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I tried to talk to you, but the only words you said were insisting that I was wrong!--Hongqilim (talk) 08:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think your reasons that I have vandalised the articles were valid.--Hongqilim (talk) 08:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

That was my last resort, because I don't believe I have done such a thing.--Hongqilim (talk) 09:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Why did you said randomly changing the numbers on 1998 Commonwealth Games was an act of vandalism?--Hongqilim (talk) 09:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Only after 5 years of editing on the article you said that I was vandalising the article? That was ridiculous!--Hongqilim (talk) 09:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I have removed what I said earlier to the admins, which I also admit I was wrong, because I want to talk to you politely.--Hongqilim (talk) 09:21, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn't do it on purpose if I ever did, why accuse me? Wouldn't it be as simple as just replacing those numbers, if you think your figure was correct?--Hongqilim (talk) 09:22, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Frankly speaking, I have been editing on Wikipedia for 7 years, but never had anyone like Sneha04 accused me of vandalising articles.--Hongqilim (talk) 09:32, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

What did you mean by teaming up and meatpuppeting with Silverdragon3002? I don't remember I've ever did that.--Hongqilim (talk) 09:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't remember I have done any such thing as randomly changing numbers.--Hongqilim (talk) 09:47, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Why was it you that found out my wrongdoing and not anyone else, if I ever did it?--Hongqilim (talk) 09:49, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• @Hongqilim: Can you stay off Sneha04's talk page please? @Sneha04: Can you use the undo option with a descriptive edit summary rather than a revert marked 'vandalism' for these kind of edits please? On the content issue, what do the sources say? -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 09:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  Removed it. Hongqilim (talk) 10:01, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Malcolmxl5, User:Hongqilim crossed the limit, used vulgar words, and for all those behaviour, there need to be serious action ! User:Hongqilim became soft after the report here on ANI, if I wouldn't take it to here, it could go worst!

  I already explained why I labelled it as vandalism and I know the difference between Vandalism and disruptive editing as per WP:PG, it was a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia as it continued mistake following to all time medal table each year on chain format. I told, I didn't put any warning template because this edit was almost 5 yrs back so I refrained from doing so! I just used edit summary.. and I don't derserve all these treats, personal attacks and harrassment for labelling out the wrong thing.

  On content issue, here is what source says, [42]

  Kenya had 7 Gold, 5 Silver and 4 bronze and New Zealand had 8 Gold, 6 Silver and 20 bronze in medal tally respectively!

  but what this edit says? Sneha04 ^💬 10:29, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  What vulgar words did I used?--Hongqilim (talk) 10:33, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  I already tried to talk to you nicely. This is how you reply to me.--Hongqilim (talk) 10:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  Vandalism is defined as action involving deliberate destruction of or damage to public or private property. How come what I did was deliberate?--Hongqilim (talk) 10:46, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  On Wikipedia, vandalism is editing the project in an intentionally disruptive or malicious manner. Vandalism includes any addition, removal, or modification that is intentionally humorous, nonsensical, a hoax, or degrading in any way. Was it by INTENTION? Hongqilim (talk) 10:53, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  How do you identify my intentions?--Hongqilim (talk) 10:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  First of all, Another rephrasing of words? where did I mentioned? "Public and Private Property?" Don't forget there is page history! Are you trying to get a favour here by rephrasing my words in your way? And it can be check anytime who said what? I have already mentioned what vulgar or rude words you have used! Vandalism on Commonwealth Games articles section tells all about.

  And yes you deliberately introduced wrong numbers, and you have no stand on that! And cherry picking words from Policies and doesn't make any sense and can't change the complete sense of Vandalism. I clarified before why it is labelled as Vandalism.

  But I even after I clarified it on reply on my talk page, you gone on a rapid harassment campaign! And you have continued so and violated a lots of User policies like WP:DRRC even after I put level-4 warning template on your talk page!

  And the vandalism still going on my talk page even after report at ANI.

  Now IT IS ENOUGH!!! Sneha04 ^💬 11:09, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  Not really--Hongqilim (talk) 11:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  It was. Not now.--Hongqilim (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  What did you mean by rephrase?--Hongqilim (talk) 11:19, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  Now and then you always viewed me with suspicion don't you?--Hongqilim (talk) 11:21, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• Hongqilim seems very clueless about what they are and are not allowed to do on another user's talkpage. Immediately after Malcolmxl5' very polite request above to stay off Sneha04's page,[43] Hongqilim removed a big chunk of back-and-forth from the page[44] and noted here, below Malcolm's request, that they had done so. I have blocked them from Sneha04's talkpage, since polite requests aren't doing it. Bishonen | tålk 10:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC).

  I apologise for what I did on Sneha04's talk page.--Hongqilim (talk) 11:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  I was wrong.--Hongqilim (talk) 11:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  Pity it took a block to convince you of that. Bishonen | tålk 11:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC).

  I really was impulsive just now, as I was trying to make things clear of what was happenning to me, I mean seriously.--Hongqilim (talk) 11:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  Not really, these are the things I have say about the whole incident.--Hongqilim (talk) 11:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  From the beginning I really wanted to talk about it, seriously.--Hongqilim (talk) 11:12, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  I am trying to be honest all along.--Hongqilim (talk) 11:15, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  Are you trying to tell me you are taking Sneha04's side?--Hongqilim (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  I mean really, is this how Wikipedia does things?--Hongqilim (talk) 11:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Getting nothing from harassment, instead of getting the blocked, you also leave a bunch of unhelpful comments on my talk page and then removed it, growth up son. --Aleenf1 11:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Now you are trying to get yourself involved, isn't it?--Hongqilim (talk) 12:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Your issue is being solved if I am not mistaken. I told you on my comments right? I admit it was a mistake, but you are trying to raise it again. Aren't you?--Hongqilim (talk) 12:04, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

What is your problem now? I just hope you don't treat people with suspicion when editing sport articles in the future. If you continue doing that, I will report you as well in the future.--Hongqilim (talk) 12:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

You mean I "grow up"? You should grow up too! Improve your English first before you talk to me. This forum is none of your business now.--Hongqilim (talk) 12:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and don't forget to improve on your attitude towards people too!--Hongqilim (talk) 12:12, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Unhelpful? Since when I am going to help you?--Hongqilim (talk) 12:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Now get out!--Hongqilim (talk) 12:16, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

WP:BATTLEGROUND, acting childish never help. --Aleenf1 12:21, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I am not childish. What makes you think I am?--Hongqilim (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

You still don't want to give up, don't you?--Hongqilim (talk) 12:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Why don't you just give up already?--Hongqilim (talk) 12:31, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

What else do you want from me? If there is nothing else, then get lost!--Hongqilim (talk) 13:07, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I just hope this dispute can be resolved without biased towards anyone else. That's all I want.--Hongqilim (talk) 12:39, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Please give me the chance to speak for myself.--Hongqilim (talk) 12:43, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) "Chance to speak for [your]self"?? You are bludgeoning this thread. You keep adding multiple, unnecessary replies over and over again and giving no chance for administrators to review. Singularity42 (talk) 13:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Just explaining. What is it that matter to you?--Hongqilim (talk) 13:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@Hongqilim Please stop. In approximately five hours you have done over 40 replies to this thread. You are not letting anyone review or look at this issue. You need to stop replying to everything, take a little break, and let administrators review the situation. Singularity42 (talk) 13:20, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

ok--Hongqilim (talk) 13:21, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I was trying to understand why Sneha claimed that I vandalised the 1998 Commonwealth Games article 5 years ago? He even tagged my so-called past wrongdoing in one of his edit comments at India at the Commonwealth Games. What if I really had never intended to vandalise any articles on Wikipedia? Never had I been accused a vandal in all my 7 years here until now.--Hongqilim (talk) 13:15, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Break and Resolution

(Non-administrator comment) I've done my best to review the situation and here's what I think has occurred:

• User:Sneha04 reverted a 2017 edit by Hongqilim with an edit summary that it was vandalism. While there may or may not have been issues with the 2017 edit, it was probably jumping the gun by a long shot calling it vandalism.
• User:Hongqilim took issue with his edit being described as vandalism. However, they seem to have gone on quite a bit over this, making a large number of edits on various talk pages taking issue with the description, being uncivil, and restoring edits to a user talk page after they have been reverted.
• Sneha04 and Hongqilim got into it quite a bit over various talk pages, issuing warnings and/or threatening to go to admins, and ultimately landing in ANI. There's also been a bit of bludgeoning on this thread, more so by Hongqilim (which has been part of Hongqilim's issue on the other talk pages.

An administrator has already taken partial action by blocking Hongqilim from Sneha04's talk page. If both editors can abide by the following, I'm not sure further administrator involvement is needed and this thread could potentially be closed.

• Both editors should review WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF.
• Sneha04 should familiarize themselves with WP:NOTVANDALISM
• Hongqilim should familiarize themselves with WP:BLUDGEON, WP:BLANKING, and start a practice of only replying once in a thread and waiting for a response rather than replying many many times to a single point (which is a problematic pattern with the editor on many talk pages).

If both editors could confirm to committing to the above, I think admin involvement can be avoided. Just my two cents. Singularity42 (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Emotions and look back to the past, forcefully want to get the things stick, lay down the unnecessary comments, that's the problem and never help. --Aleenf1 01:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I told you to get lost already. Like I said, you view other users with suspicion. Look at what you said, is this how you treat the users here? I won't bother you if you treat all users nicely.--Hongqilim (talk) 02:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Ahem. This is not how WP:CIVIL works. You are enjoined to treat all editors civilly whether or not they meet with your approval. If you do not understand this, and you cannot abide by it -- "I told you to get lost already" is very far from the mark, especially after already being warned -- then you are a poor fit for a collaborative effort such as Wikipedia. Ravenswing 04:57, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I really was rude just now, I apologise. I really don't know what should I say to these users, especially when their way of dealing with admins, reviewers and users seems confrontational to me.--Hongqilim (talk) 05:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I have issues with Aleenf1 on sporting articles and like Sneha, Aleen always view me and the other users involved with suspicion. Could you please talk to him? I doubted if the rules in Wikipedia is like how Aleenf1 and Sneha04 interpret it to be.--Hongqilim (talk) 02:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Based off this diff I think it may be beyond a simple caution. The response to your caution of civility is to tell someone to get lost. FrederalBacon (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I honestly don't even know how to talk to them. I mean what should I do now? If Wikipedia runs like how Aleenf1 and Sneha04 think it has always been, I doubted if they would have been called geniuses since long time ago. By then, they would have been Admins here for YEARS! This is what Aleenf1 does: citing things like MOS:WORDPRECEDENCE and MOS:NOICONS, as if he knows how these rules really APPLIES when arguing with the users in his talk page!--Hongqilim (talk) 03:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Obviously WP:NOTHERE --Aleenf1 04:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

So this is how you interpret Wikipedia rules. Never have I seen in Wikipedia that there are users, I mean reviewers who could challenge other users or reviewers with Wikipedia rules like you! Look at how ridiculous you are! Is this how you dismiss other users or reviewers in Sports articles and talk pages?--Hongqilim (talk) 04:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Your response shows a clear lack of understanding of the way Wikipedia works, and the idea that because these two editors are NOT admins, that their interpretations of the guidelines are less valid. This is not the case. FrederalBacon (talk) 05:44, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I really don't know if what I saw in them were wrong. But this is how I see them so far. I mean did Aleenf1 and Sneha04 actually talk to the admins about Wikipedia before?--Hongqilim (talk) 05:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

@Hongqilim I don't see how is that relevant. Admins are editors just with additional tools, albeit given after a discussion by the commmunity to grant them the access. There are editors who are perfectly fine editing on Wikipedia without being admins for years, and may not want to be admins for one reason or another. And before casting asperasions like did Aleenf1 and Sneha04 actually talk to the admins about Wikipedia before, I urge that you check through their respective user contributions (a good starting point is through xtools) and you may see that they have interacted with various (former/current) admins at various times in their editing career here. – robertsky (talk) 06:08, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I might want to follow their directions unquestionably. I need some time to think about it. Maybe I will start off with apologising to Aleenf1, Sneha04 and the admins involved for my rude and uncivilised behaviour, for blanking and bludgeoning and harassment or something like that? I was wrong by telling Aleenf1 to get lost and I did so because I want the user to leave the topic as it is an affair between me and Sneha04. To tell the truth, I bludgeoned Aleenf1 talk page because the conflict between me and Sneha04 reminds me of what I thought about Aleenf1 and the other users on sporting articles.--Hongqilim (talk) 13:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Respectfully, WP:NOTHERE requires more common sense than Hongqilim appears capable of providing. A consistent pattern has emerged: Antagonize/bludegeon/harass, apologize, repeat. Apologies are not empty words and need to follow with actions that compliment the expression of regret. Otherwise, they are worthless. I recommend that Hongqilim take some time to refrain from further replies, self-reflect, take a break from WP, and re-engage in a month with an improved demeanor. Buffs (talk) 17:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

It is not just apologies, I have a lot to talk about it. I believe I have information that could assist with the investigation.--Hongqilim (talk) 04:04, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

What an utter mess. Two editors fighting and shouting about edits to an article[45] which changes the medal tally from 670 to 672 (in 2017) and back (in 2022), when the official result[https://www.thecgf.com/results/games/3044 is 665 medals. If they didn't care so much about who was right or wrong, and what was vandalism or not, we could have had much less drama and a better article. Fram (talk) 07:59, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I recently just discover a way to resolve the conflict between me and the other user, which is through Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. I found it at the top of the noticeboard and I really wished I could resolve the conflict this way if I found it earlier, but my concern is: is there other way to do it and how do I know if the allegation of the other user against me was untrue?--Hongqilim (talk) 08:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you just drop the topic entirely. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:04, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Bedford

• Bedford (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can an administrator look at User:Bedford? They have a few Neo-Confederate userboxes on their userpage.

Here is one example: User:Bedford/userboxes/User Confederate TraderCharlotte (talk) 23:13, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Woah, according to this list, Bedford is a former administrator. TraderCharlotte (talk) 23:32, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

User has only made 10 edits since 2016 and half of those were responding to someone posting something on their talk page. If we ignore them, they'll go away on their own.--v/r - TP 01:07, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

unfortunately the tone of their responses at MfD doesn't indicate any such likelihood. Definitely does not inspire collaborative efforts. Star Mississippi 02:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

A former admin who was removed for cause by Jimbo Wales 14(!) years ago. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 21:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this user is a concern as of now. They've made few edits in recent years, and from their user page it appears they once had a somewhat distinguished career (They are a Senior Editor II and have multiple barnstars). I just think we should keep an eye on them for any signs of future disruptive editing. No action needs to be taken. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 02:07, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

a username that could be read as problematic with obnoxious, offensive userboxes that they're calling @Dronebogus "childish" for nominating. Multiple barnstars and being a "Senior Editor II" are frankly irrelevant. Star Mississippi 02:12, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

While I agree that barnstars and editor awards are completely irrelevant, the fact that they haven't really edited in years, except to defend these UBXs that have no chance of survival it appears, absolutely is relevant. I'm not sure what the desired outcome here is. FrederalBacon (talk) 02:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything we can do, but I was instead making clear that we don't really need to look for future disruption. It's already here and hiding in plain sight. Star Mississippi 02:33, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

To say the name "could be KKK inspired" is an uncalled for stretch. My personal first name (that I haven't disclosed) happens to be shared with a confederate general, but that doesn't make my name KKK inpired. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 02:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

It is worth pointing out that his authored images state Bedford is part of his legal name. I'd recommend a retraction of the allegation of the KKK inspired name. FrederalBacon (talk) 02:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Your AGF is stronger than mine, but I have rephrased. If there's specific syntax for a redaction, please consider this my permission to edit my comment as I'm about to log off. Star Mississippi 03:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Note that Bedford also displays this userbox on their userpage, which has a fascist symbol. Thank Dronebogus for noticing and nominating that for deletion. TraderCharlotte (talk) 02:29, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Bedford was desysopped by Jimmy Wales in 2008 after a similar debate. I think that was the last active intervention by Jimmy in enwiki management. I don't think much has changed since then with Bedford, but he hasn't terribly active since then either. Acroterion (talk) 02:48, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Indef Bedford There is no place on Wikipedia for sympathizers with racism and fascism. This user is clearly NOTHERE, and their recent edits show it. For example, editing in support of the "war of northern aggression" myth [46], and responding to deletion requests with personal attacks. Consider KEEP I want to have a warning before someone who clearly needs to compensate for certain..deficiencies...tries to delete all my hard work. I don't follow commons, so I have no warning. Please get a life, and stop spamming my emails with all your silly deletion requests [47]. Not to mention today's repeated personal attacks at one of the MfDs regarding their racist userboxes. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:00, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Recent edits? Aren't those from like 2014 and 2015? Andre🚐 03:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  it's a pattern of editing going back a decade+. We don't need to wait another year for their inevitable disruption by way of tirades and outward racism. PRAXIDICAE🌈 03:04, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  No, it's not a "pattern of editing going back a decade." It's some edits FROM a decade ago. To suggest that someone with ten mainspace edits over the last eight years is going to "inevitably" disrupt anything is little short of hysteria. Ravenswing 03:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Considering these are all within their last 50 edits, yes, I believe "recent" is appropriate. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I am in no way defending this user or their edits, but I don't think you can be judgedindeffed for something from 7 years ago. And I agree his messages are uncooperative. I have 0 sympathy for his views, but I can't agree that these are "recent," that's misleading at best. Andre🚐 03:08, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Have you actually looked at their diffs in the MFD, from today? PRAXIDICAE🌈 03:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Have you actually looked at their diffs in the MFD, from today? PRAXIDICAE🌈 03:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I saw the term "childish" and repeated some kind of counterfactual confederate troll b.s. Yeah it's offensive, so delete his userboxes and he'll probably go away again. Blocks and bans are not supposed to be punitive. We don't have to tolerate him if he starts making bad edits. It looks like he hasn't even edited in years. As someone with zero love for racism or fascism of any stripe, I don't see the argument. Delete his personal attacks and racist content, and if he persists in re-adding them, then a block might be merited. Not if he's just sitting there for years doing nothing. Andre🚐 03:16, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  The editor was on those MfDs within 3 hours of them being posted. I'm not sure where the inactivity argument comes from, a 3 hour response time to an MfD doesn't indicate inactivity to me. FrederalBacon (talk) 03:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Huh? But before that the editor had no other edits for ages? They undoubtedly got an email of the talk page notification. Andre🚐 03:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  If that is the case, his immediate response to a talk page notification was to immediately accuse editors of ignorance and childishness. I still don't see how that is a reason to NOT indef him. FrederalBacon (talk) 05:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• indef I'm with TAOT. Wikipedia has no room for people who openly support racism (and whos response to any criticism is "Get a life", something Bedford has said often.) Not to mention Wikipedia is very much not the place for revisionist history, nor can we trust an editor who is so wildly out of touch with facts and reality. PRAXIDICAE🌈 03:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Indef Support indef, per these three diffs, clearly WP:NOTHERE. FrederalBacon (talk) 03:15, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Indef, hopefully it's not an unpopular opinion that neo-confederates shouldn't be Wikipedia editors. —VersaceSpace 🌃 03:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose indef - If he's not edit-warring, vandalising pages or pushing a political PoV on pages? then don't ban. Merely remove the userbox-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 03:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• No ban/block at this time per my comments above. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 03:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Strongly warn and issue civility warnings to the user. Andre🚐 03:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I would support a warning as described by Andrevan Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 03:29, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose indef: I take a back seat to no one in my disgust at this fellow's politics. But Andre is entirely right. This guy isn't an active editor. It's been a decade since he has been. This is a bunch of outrage for the sake of outrage. Absolutely, delete his offensive infoboxes (the MfDs of which are well on their way), but indeffing him for no better reason than he's a cheap and convenient target -- and made some objectionable edits many years ago -- plays rather dramatically into the hands of those who just love to paint Wikipedia as the haunt of extremist and intolerant liberals. The easiest way to avoid being smeared as a kneejerk lynch mob is not to be one. Ravenswing 03:35, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  An indef is preventative. It prevents further disruption from this user, which is all that leaving him free to edit will accomplish. He has no intention of building an encyclopedia. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  He has no intention of EDITING this encyclopedia ... as plainly witnessed by the plain fact that he hasn't been doing so. This isn't merely an exercise in bullying, it's a pretty dern pointless one. I want a far, far better reason to indef someone than to pound my chest as I gaze into the mirror and chortle "Hah, I got another red state bastard!" Ravenswing 03:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose User is retired and not in the public WP consciousness, and the only reason it has re-entered public consciousness is because people decided to rustle through said user's userpage and the user has jousted a bit in the subsequent MFD. If the purpose actually was to not advertise the user's political beliefs, it would be obvious what the appropriate tactical/strategic course of action would be Bumbubookworm (talk) 03:49, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support indef - This is exactly what WP:NONAZIS is about. --MuZemike 04:05, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Blank the userpage, delete associated userboxen, and remove the polemic material - otherwise do not block. The polemic shit can and should be deleted, but as they're hardly editing I don't see any real point to 86'ing them at this juncture. Now, mind you, if he decides to reinsert it, then by all means put the vengeful gaze of $deity on them, but I'd rather not block a user who's hardly editing anyway for an indef without trying lesser measures first to address any disruption, and it seems to me the easiest route is to blank off the offending material. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 04:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Concur with blank+delete+remove Andre🚐 04:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  +1. Lectonar (talk) 11:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I second that. Quandarie16:16, 2024-05-15

• weak support for indef he’s retired from productive editing and now only wants to be an uncivil nuisance to anyone “triggered” by his extremely offensive userboxes. Also, his last edit before the UBX nominations was calling an LGBT-related invite “garbage”, so add likely homophobia to list of project-incompatible beliefs. Dronebogus (talk) 05:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose indef for now, but could lean towards indef depending on their behavior with regards to the MfD discussions. Otherwise, basically the action Jeske outlined above. User is inactive so an indef would be strictly punitive, not preventative. If they step out of line (if they come back) after this, then yeah nuke 'em, but it's a non-issue at this point. Curbon7 (talk) 05:35, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block at this time. Blocks are to stop disruption of the encyclopedia. We should not carry out ideological purges. This editor has made only 18 edits in the last seven years, but they made 13,347 edits in 2008. This editor may hold views that most of us (including me) consider reprehensible, but they are not disrupting the encyclopedia at this time. They are effectively retired. If they start actively disrupting the encyclopedia, then I would definitely support an indefinite block. Cullen328 (talk) 06:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block, essentially per Cullen328. Problematic userboxes can be deleted by consensus (and I see a couple of discussions are happening on those lines). But if Bedford is not editing to push his political views, and is not harming or disrupting the encyclopedia, there's nothing that we need a block to prevent. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and Ravenswing said it well too. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:31, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support community ban from the project, after having seen his odious Facebook utterances. (And yes, I know that's off-wiki, but it shows he's such a repulsive individual that he needs to be shown the door.) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Cullen328 and GoodDay. — Czello 08:07, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• First of all, we should just ban issues-based userboxen already. Secondly, I agree with Cullen and particularly Curbon7. If Bedford decides to continue spending his time insulting people who take exception to his support for an organization devoted to upholding the enslavement of Black people as chattel, then I imagine someone will quietly indef as NOTHERE and that will be that. (And I'm fine with being that someone.) But he's not (yet) at such a level of disruption to warrant that. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 10:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

My eyes got a workout for all the rolling. You have an obvious user just wanting to find reasons to be offended, and instead of telling him to cool it you are going after me. The userboxes in question are at least 14 years old so obviously there has been no issue until someone desperately needed them to be one. The people wanting to think I'm fascist are the ones who act the most like them as they are the ones who can't handle anyone who disagrees with them. I saw someone complain about another userbox I had which I did not create, but I assume that icon was not there originally there as I do not remember that icon. Yes, I was an admin before it was removed because I stood up for the DYK process when some women couldn't handle a factoid that reminded them that men find some women attractive. This is just a witchhunt that rewards those who are looking for reasons to be offended. You already damaged WP by chasing productive users like me away; do you really want to keep the process going?--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 10:58, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• @Bedford: So, I know this is reaching back a decade, but it's the sort of statement that, no matter how long ago it was made, is concerning, and I don't see that it was addressed at the time: Do you stand by this comment saying that you wished to "recommend to [Jimbo Wales] Dr. Kevorkian's successor" [link added]—i.e. that Jimbo Wales should kill himself? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 11:12, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  That easily should’ve been ban material right there Dronebogus (talk) 13:04, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Indef Bedford, regardless of their past merits and recent level of activity, and according to these three diffs, this homophobic remark, as well as WP:NONAZIS and WP:NOTHERE. But, above all – there should be no place for neo-Confederates on Wikipedia. —Sundostund (talk) 11:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

off topic discussion

Sundostund, describing this diff as "this homophobic remark", is stretching it too much. It is a removal of a massposted message. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 12:16, 9 August 2022 (UTC) חוקרת, there is nothing wrong in a removal of a massposted message. The issue is about describing that LGBT–themed message as a "garbage" in the edit summary. —Sundostund (talk) 12:20, 9 August 2022 (UTC) A massposted message. You could see it in the way you frame it, but it can also be seen otherwise. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 12:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Yes, I certainly see it in that way. At the same time, I am letting other users to make their own conclusions about it. —Sundostund (talk) 12:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Taken in context it’s very likely homophobic Dronebogus (talk) 13:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC) If Bedford took onus with all auto-posted messages, I could see giving a pass. There are hundreds of such automated messages on Bedford's talk, and he hasn't removed them. He was invited to a different Wiki event in Indy he felt no need to delete, just a month later. Certainly indicates a problem with THE message, not A message. With that said, I don't see that being a cause to indef, there appear to be much better reasons than potential homophobia. FrederalBacon (talk) 16:01, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Deleting unsolicited messages on a user's talk page is now evidence of "homophobia"? If that's the definition we're using, we're going to need to get a lot more banhammers... Buffs (talk) 18:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Like I said, if he took onus with all of them, I'd see it being a pass. But his talk page suggests he only took onus with the pride invite. Which, as I said, I don't think is enough to block him for anyway. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC) So he only took issue with the Pride invite. Maybe he thinks that open sexual displays of any kind are inappropriate (which is what many/most of these festivals either entail or endorse). If you post an unsolicited invite to my talk page regarding sexual topics, I'm going to delete as well. That isn't homophobic...sexually conservative, to be sure, but hardly homophobic. Buffs (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC) The level of WP:AGF required here is beyond the standard of reasonable doubt. He thinks trans people are worthy of mockery because he thinks they’re ugly, not because of his “sexually conservative” values. Dronebogus (talk) 13:21, 10 August 2022 (UTC) I would say that there's a very thin line between claiming to be “sexually conservative” and defending homophobia; various claims of "conservative” values often are bywords for something much sinister. Also, his stance on trans people is just deplorable. —Sundostund (talk) 13:41, 10 August 2022 (UTC) @Buffs: it seems very hard to me to reconcile "sexually conservative" with the DYK Bedford proposed [48] then got desysoped over after they wheel warred to try and keep it on the main page, talked about feminazis who were jealous of attractive women etc; and then followed up after their de-sysop with repeatedly saying they were gangraped. Unless you mean they're opposed to it when it involves gay people but are fine with it otherwise, in which case that is indeed homophobic. Nil Einne (talk) 17:53, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Guys thats socially conservative... Sexually conservative is when you believe that coitus is the central element of sexuality which does overlap with social conservatism but unless any of you have been to bed with Bedford or have a source which says he isn't into oral, manual, anal, or kinky non-coitus based sex you need to say socially conservative. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:18, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Sex sells. Las Vegas is based on that. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong, but it will grab attention. Likewise, it was also factual and had community approval, so it should have stood rather than be unilaterally removed (unless I'm misunderstanding the situation...if he was undoing multiple Admins after a WP:AN discussion, that's different). We've done PLENTY of front page things that were designed to grab headlines/attention and I don't see anything wrong with this particular selection. I've seen nothing about "gangraped" at all. If so, that's indeed abhorrent (links would be appreciated). I think that his choice of actions was inappropriate (wheel warring) as were his choice of words to describe why he was demoted (wheel warring and name calling). From what I can see, I think those who took it down were also in the wrong when they unilaterally took it down as it was an agreed-upon DYK. I can't say Jimbo was wrong as he, at the time, had the power to revoke such access unilaterally and at his own discretion. I don't think it was wise and he should have let the community handle it (they would likely have rapidly come to the same conclusion), but that's really not a matter of discussion here. As for the Gay Pride parade, I'm personally opposed to such promiscuous/prominent sexual behavior of all kinds. This would include such open displays of sex, the sort that are prominent at gay pride parades, free love festivals, public displays of sex positivity, and a number of other sex exhibits that are available in public locations. It doesn't matter to me if it is heterosexual, homosexual, pansexual, or any flavor of LGBTQPIA+!? That sort of behavior should be reserved for non-public settings and I'm not a fan of them...ALL of them. That said, I also completely support it being legal and they should be free to do it! Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it should be illegal. Public expression is free speech in America and, though I disagree with them, I will fight to the death for their right to do so. You want to define that as socially conservative? Fine. "Conservative with sexual matters". Anything else? Fine. It all means the same thing that I clearly intended and described. Lastly, please don't mistake my support for process/procedure for complete support of his actions. Buffs (talk) 18:22, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Did you really just claim that Wikipedia:Meetup/Indianapolis/Wiki_Loves_Pride_2022 will "include open displays of sex" ? You think sex is going to happen in the IUPUI University Library's Ashby Browsing Room? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:32, 10 August 2022 (UTC) The editathon focused on improving articles ABOUT those events. Art + Feminism was also a sponsor of the event, a decidedly leftist organization. My entire point is that he didn't want to participate and thought it was "garbage". Equating that with "HOMOPHOBIA!!!!" is just people jumping to conclusions. Buffs (talk) 16:57, 11 August 2022 (UTC) Actually its *your* words Buffs which are being equated with homophobia, because they're ridiculously homophobic... They're also just wrong, I've been adjacent to a number of pride events in my life (one of the largest in the country goes right down the street under my office window) and "open displays of sex" just isn't whats happening. You're really on a roll here: promoting Nazi ideology, Confederate apologism, almost comically stupid homophobia... Why do you keep digging this hole? Do you want to be indeffed as well? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC) @Buffs: You do know that the "A" in LGBTQPIA+!? stands for Asexual, right? Do you know how silly it sounds for you to suggest a pride event which includes asexuals (which, oh hey, that includes me) would involve open displays of sex? With that kind of description, I really don't think you really seem to understand what a pride parade actually.. is? That's also just straight up ignoring the fact that this was an advertisement for an editathon. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 06:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC) Oh lordy...we're really going to go down that road? Perhaps I meant "A" for "Ally" or "Androgeny" or... This right here is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. I'm trying to be inclusive and the only thing you can focus on is how I allegedly (OOH! Maybe it was "Allegedly"!) got a single letter "wrong". And because I did, that somehow "proves" I don't understand what pride a pride parade is (likewise, the editathon focused on editing such articles on those topics, ergo, they are involved). If you think that proves I'm not "woke" enough, you're going to take anything/everything I say the way you want to interpret it. You are going to see what you want to see and discard the rest. A discussion with you beyond this is pointless. Buffs (talk) 17:05, 11 August 2022 (UTC) @Buffs: The A stands for Asexual. It does not stand for anything else (the pamphlet you linked does not seem reliable for this information). I never said your weird description somehow "proves" [you] don't understand what pride a pride parade is. I also never said you got a single letter "wrong" (because you didn't?). Lastly, I never said you weren't "woke" enough. All of these phrases includes quotes as if you are quoting me, but you are not. I never said any of these words nor does anything I say even remotely come close to meaning anything close to them. What I said was just trying to inform you that the LGBT community is composed of a large group of people who do not enjoy sex. You really don't seem to really get that, and you are being very weird about this discussion. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 03:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC) I would make a note of order here that this has strayed significantly from the topic at hand, and would caution editors involved in this whole above discussion, myself included, that this has, in fact, become a topic of discussion completely independent of the Bedford ban, and this has now been taken in a direction that, if continued and heated, could wind up with a whole lot more sanctions being levied against people this ANI originally wasn't about. Maybe this isn't the argument we want to be having, or should be having, under this ANI. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC) If you're going to accuse people of being a homophobe, at least have the common decency to say it to their face. I've deleted that unsigned remark. Part of this discussion is a very weak accusation of homophobia. As such, it is not off-topic. Buffs (talk) 19:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Indef as the nomination of an indef on the basis of (what seems to be primarily) ideology smacks a bit of 'user has incorrect opinions.' I've seen WP:NONAZIS brought up above but there is a reason that NONAZIS is an essay, not a policy. I understand that this nomination is said to also be on the grounds of disruption, but I find the evidence for this is fairly weak. A warning about attitude may be in order, but an indef is disproportionate. GabberFlasted (talk) 12:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• I haven’t heard the name 'User:Bedford' for a long time, I remember when he was, I think, the last admin to be desysoped by Jimbo using his Godlike powers back in the day. Bedford has contributed very little for so long - a de facto retirement, I guess - that it shouldn’t be any big deal to him whether the user boxes go. I suggest he be left to return to his 'retirement'. -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:33, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose indef - Indef blocks are intended to stop imminent and ongoing disruption to the encyclopedia, not to express our collective outrage or to tear down Confederate statues and monuments.--🌈WaltCip-(talk) 12:45, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  He’s disrupting Wikipedia right now, every single recent comment is basically just trolling to “own the libs”, which is plainly WP:NOTHERE Dronebogus (talk) 13:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose indef. Bedford isn't editing, hadn't really edited this year until replying to the userbox deletion nominations. Indeffing will achieve nothing positive, and would be seen as by Bedford as a "badge of honor". The userboxes themselves will be gone soon. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 12:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Mr. Crenshaw, as evidenced by the contents of his userpage and the social media accounts linked therefrom, is not the least bit coy about his political opinions and seems to have held them for years without much deviation. If he continues to let this account lie dormant after this episode, he will be swiftly re-forgotten. If he doesn't, he will get himself banned, and then re-forgotten. Same difference. Dr. Duh 🩺 (talk) 13:22, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I stood up for the DYK process when some women couldn't handle a factoid that reminded them that men find some women attractive weren't you desysopped by Jimbo for your misogyny too? And yet here you are, 14 years later still doing the same shit. If that isn't a pattern, I don't know what is. This community's absolute unwillingness to deal with homophobia, misogyny and racism is actually astounding. PRAXIDICAE🌈 13:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - Wikipedia does not sanction for thoughtcrimes. Sanctions are reserved for actions that are counter to collaborative participation. The last thing we need to be doing is sanctioning someone for simply have a minority point of view, no matter how offensive someone might find it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  WP:NONAZIS begs to differ. Allowing rampant misogyny like I've pointed out, along with racism and homophobia are more than just "minority opinions." They're toxic and violent ideologies that don't belong on an encyclopedia and are inherently at odds with building an encyclopedia. PRAXIDICAE🌈 13:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  That is an essay that doesn't enjoy wide spread acceptance. There is a HUGE difference in someone claiming they want to preserve parts of their heritage that aren't about racism, and someone saying "Hitler was right". I'm not saying I agree with him, but currently, as he has presented the information, it isn't breaking any policy. We don't block people just because we disagree with them. It is a dangerous precedent to start blocking people for ideas rather than actions, and it isn't supported in policy. We block for actions, not thoughts. If he comes back and spews racist ideas, I would be the first to block him, but no one has presented proof he has, ever. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:49, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Actually it does, you can run a quarry for yourself to see the numerous WP:NONAZI blocks. Confederecy isn't "heritage" - that's bullshit fed to kids about the lie that is the "War of Northern Aggression" and it appears this conspiracy theory has even reached the depths of Wikipedia editors. So is racism where your blocking ability ends? The blatant misogyny isn't enough? PRAXIDICAE🌈 13:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Nevermind the fact that his ardent defense of the confederacy here and elsewhere is at odds with actual proven fact, but I guess that also doesn't matter for Wikipedia? PRAXIDICAE🌈 13:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Where exactly is his "ardent defense of the confederacy"? Buffs (talk) 18:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  WP:NONAZIS is not a policy, just someone's essay. And I'm not even convinced Bedford can be called a Nazi. — Czello 13:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Agree entirely with Dennis Brown's assessment. — Czello 13:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• FWIW - Who goes around or would want to go around, checking over other editors' userpages to find something offensive? There must be better ways, to spend ones' time. GoodDay (talk) 14:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I would argue that extends to someone who comments on every single ANI thread. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:35, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I'm happy that I'm not one of those who comments on every single ANI thread. GoodDay (talk) 15:00, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Indef So what if Bedford isn't actively contributing to mainspace anymore? If he was, then I'd say that might actually be a reason against indef since it would show he's capable of productively contributing to the project. Since he isn't doing that... Why give this guy a platform? What is there to gain with keeping someone like Bedford around?
  The community made a mistake by not kicking Bedford out a decade ago. It's time we correct for that. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 14:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block - unless and until somebody can demonstrate that the user has been putting the level of horseshit on his userpage into articles or talk pages (and yes it is 100% horseshit, believing idea that the Confederacy wasnt racist is IMO prima facie evidence that one lacks the competence to edit anything related to the American Civil War, modern race relations, or nearly anything about America and its history). There are lots of editors I think are racist, or homophobic, or anti-whatever. Until their editing shows that however that is a personal opinion of mine that has nothing to do with Wikipedia. Also, a bit shocked how he had these userbox when he ran for a successful RFA and they werent even mentioned. What a time 2008 was, maybe I could have been an admin after all. nableezy - 16:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Well this is going back a ways, but this certainly raises the eyebrows. An editor placing in the mainspace that it was the War of Northern Aggression and that the Civil War is non-neutral is so close to a KKK talking point that I seriously wonder where WP:NONAZIS comes in to play. Even if it was 14 years ago, would support a wide ranging topic ban on anything related to the Civil War or modern US politics. Including any revert on his userpage of anything removed of it. nableezy - 16:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  The "War of Northern Aggression" is a common phrase in the South. Equating that with support for the KKK is a HUGE step too far. Buffs (talk) 20:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Putting in the mainspace text referring to the Civil War as the title "the War of Northern Aggression" and claiming the term "Civil War" (a completely anodyne phrase that means a war between opposing forces in the same country) is POV is very clearly pushing KKK level bullshit in encyclopedia articles. If you cant see that then I question your ability to edit anything related to American politics, past or present, too. nableezy - 21:00, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  This quality of argumentation is pretty standard for Buffs, see e.g. [49]. JBL (talk) 00:58, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Valid question whether he or GoodDay are adding anything beyond bytes to this discussion. Star Mississippi 01:18, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Star Mississippi: Well in GoodDay's case it's a chronic problem; my request nine months ago didn't help, but perhaps a polite word from an administrator? --JBL (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  GoodDay and Buffs are playing devil’s advocate for the sake of the argument. Even the non-CBAN/block voters aren’t exactly on Bedford’s side. Dronebogus (talk) 13:19, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  JBL, you're already following my every movement after you've been asked to stop harassing me. I could argue that your continued actions and disparaging remarks are a (continued) violation of WP:CIVIL/WP:HARASS. I have 2 instances of discussions you joined in the last 24 hours ONLY because I was in there first. Kindly back off. Buffs (talk) 18:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Listen I know you like to fantasize about me but even so you're already following my every movement is a little over the top for a public forum like this, don't you think? JBL (talk) 19:21, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  I do not use that terminology, however, it is in common use in the South. It's hardly "KKK-level bullshit". I see no evidence he said "Civil War" is POV pushing and, in fact, he uses/used it on his user page. Seems more than a little contradictory. Buffs (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support community ban, very clearly NOTHERE. nableezy - 19:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose indef at the current time, I see no indication that they're going to significantly participate in WP in the future so this feels more punitive than preventative. I must admit this is a bit of an odd (some could perhaps righty say wikilawyer-like) position but if they do choose to come back in a substantive sense I'd support an immediate indef. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure why the idea is "Let an editor who only pops in to cause problems stay around". The years of inactivity, but then immediate activity (within 3 1/2 hours to remove a pride invitation, within 3 hours to dispute the MfDs) doesn't suggest he's that far gone, and the fact that his comments since the MfDs started have been to call people childish and ignorant, and advocating no one take Wiki seriously as a result of the MfDs doesn't support the idea of keeping him around. FrederalBacon (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• I was going to sit this one out, on the grounds that someone who edits so infrequently can be causing very little disruption. However, Bedford's own post above has persuaded me to comment. His contributions over the few years have been a handful of gnomish mainspace edits, an edit to their user talk page with what an edit summary that sure as hell looks like homophobia, some insulting comments at MfD, and a post here which is both misogynistic and dismissive of people's concerns: I view that as a net negative. As such, I would weakly support an indef block, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter unless he becomes active again. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• With respect to the thoughtful comments above, I have blocked Bedford indefinitely. As I noted on their talk page, they not only admit that they're not here to build an encyclopedia, but they also maintain views which are inherently incompatible with being a member of the community. — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 17:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Although I did not support the block above, I will endorse this action now as a valid closure of this discussion. Andre🚐 17:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not going to challenge this, but I think it would have been best for the community to decide whether or not Bedford should be blocked rather than you exclusively. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 17:46, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  As someone who supported the block, I agree with this. I would support removing the block until consensus can be reached. This is a WP:CBAN discussion, and the community hasn't truly come to a consensus yet. FrederalBacon (talk) 17:48, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Support Indef I agree with MJL that the years of inactivity actually cut towards an indef rather than against. If he'd been usefully contributing to Wikipedia recently then whether to indef him for defending a bunch of racist userboxes would be a complicated issue. But he hasn't, so it's not. Loki (talk) 17:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support Indef Per Praxidicase. A firm no to bending over backwards for accomodating racists. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Ravenswing, Cullen328, and GoodDay. Buffs (talk) 17:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Note TheresNoTime (talk · contribs) has indef'd Bedford for WP:NOTHERE. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Comment Is this any better/worse than a Hezbollah userbox? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to run that one back again, complete with misrepresentation of it being a "Hezbollah userbox". nableezy - 17:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

If it’s not a Hezbollah box then why is it just coincidentally green and yellow? Dronebogus (talk) 23:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Can read the aforementioned MFD if youd like. The userbox is about Wikipedia, but again if youd like to raise it in a place where it isnt off-topic whataboutism then feel free. nableezy - 00:42, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment Per WP:CBAN, discussions MUST be kept open 24 hours before sanctions are applied. For site bans, the discussion must be kept open for 72 hours except in cases where there is limited opposition and the outcome is obvious after 24 hours. This discussion was open less than 24 hours, there is no clear consensus, and a block has been applied. I ask for the block to be removed and the discussion to continue, the block was clearly premature. FrederalBacon (talk) 17:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I agree this thread has not reached a consensus on a community ban, nor reached the required timeframe. My block was based on the reasoning I left on the user's talk page, much as I'd have blocked the user if I found these edits while recent change patrolling. Discussion can (and should!) continue here, and the block can be upgraded to a ban should consensus arise. — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 17:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  You said "With respect to the thoughtful comments above I have blocked Bedford indefinitely", meaning you are taking this ANI as the reason for the block. You listed this discussion as "With respect to" as for a reason for the block. It appears you imposed the block to enforce a CBAN, which has not taken effect through consensus yet. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:05, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I think she meant that while respectfully noting the opposition above, TNT made, as an independent action by an uninvolved admin, a normal indef-block that is not a community ban and one that any admin can make if they think it necessary. And if there is consensus to unblock then Im sure she will abide by that, but as of right now theres a normal admin block and no CBAN. nableezy - 18:12, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Listing this ANI as the reason for the block sure as heck makes it look like it's a CBAN. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:20, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

See below — I did not list this thread as the reason for the block. — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 18:23, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Many blocks happen as a result of ANI, near immediately, with ANI cited in the block reason and are not CBANS. No one has proposed a CBAN either. PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

No one has proposed a CBAN? So we're discussing (voting, debating, trying to garner consensus in the commmunity) whether or not to indef him as a matter of routine discussion? Formal or not, this is a CBAN discussion. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Commas are important, no? I meant that I respect the thoughtful comments here, but that my block was for the reasons I left on the user's talk page. In that message, I again give due respect to the community process, but enact a block for the reasons given. Lastly, I do not mention this thread in my block reason recorded in the log — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 18:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Commas are indeed important, and I understand now, I still feel the block is premature and circumvents the community process here. We aren't done discussing it, but we are now, because you blocked them. And I support the block, I just think this was way too fast. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:26, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

collapsing lengthy digression about Nazis etc. that adds little to the overall discussion; editors can make their own judgement here

Absolutely. This is an absurd rush to judgement and a clear violation of procedure. Nominating someone's user boxes for deletion and then indef blocking him when he defends them is absurd. I se no evidence of racism at all other than "symbols" (in fact, just one symbol) which, at least arguably, has more than one meaning which can be benign and another that can be historical. Buffs (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Because debating whether or not a confederate editor should be blocked is the ideal use of editor time. —VersaceSpace 🌃 18:08, 9 August 2022 (UTC) If you are going to accuse someone of being a "confederate" as others have accused him of being a Nazi/racist, you should certainly have evidence to back it up. Buffs (talk) 18:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC) His own off-wiki social media page (which he links himself on his user page, this is information he puts out there himself) identifies himself as "Confederate American". Just saying. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC) He also calls himself a Sphenisciform (a flightless bird), so I don't think that can be taken as a clear sign of "support of racism/nazisim". In fact, his userbox seemed to indicate he wanted to distance himself from racism/slavery (the exact opposite of what he seemed to be advocating). Now, I think he's wrong/immature, but I think that's a VERY poor reason for a block. Buffs (talk) 18:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC) I only referred to him as a confederate, as that is what he is, and proof of such has been displayed to you. I never said anything about the two "isms" you mentioned. WP:NONAZIS is broader in scope than just nazis. —VersaceSpace 🌃 19:45, 9 August 2022 (UTC) That appears to be a reference to his lineage: a descendant of Confederates. When he openly decries slavery, he's not exactly endorsing the Confederacy considering that was its aim (to keep slavery legal). 01:19, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Buffs (talk) 01:19, 10 August 2022 (UTC) @Buffs: you should keep up. Have you even read his own description of himself on Twitter? —VersaceSpace 🌃 15:00, 10 August 2022 (UTC) You should keep up...that's what I'm referring to Buffs (talk) 15:58, 10 August 2022 (UTC) So then you're aware that he openly describes himself as a confederate-american. —VersaceSpace 🌃 16:00, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Have you actually looked at his edits...or his userpage? He has repeatedly touted his "confederate heritage." Is it ok for someone to be proud of their "KKK heritage"? "Nazi heritage"? PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Or perhaps TNT can clarify with a block for misogyny too, or is that ok? Because it's very clear in the diffs by Bedford on this very thread and I quote: I stood up for the DYK process when some women couldn't handle a factoid that reminded them that men find some women attractive PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC) How is a subjective assessment of attractiveness "misogyny"? I think lots of people are physically unattractive for a variety of reasons. Most people do. Buffs (talk) 18:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Enlighten yourself. PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Facts are not misogyny. While I find "that after Melina stripped Torrie Wilson to win a 'bra & panties match' at The Great American Bash (2005), referee Candice Michelle stripped Melina and herself as well?" unnecessarily trivial and didn't need to be on the main page, I don't think it's ironclad evidence that Bedford's a "misogynist" in perpetuity. The fact is that The Great American Bash (2005) happened and so did the events it described. As such, it's a fact, not misogyny. Buffs (talk) 19:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Just look at his twitter feed and FB page before you keep going. I get trying to ensure this remains a place where uncomfortable ideas are tolerated, but seriously, spend 5 minutes scrolling through either and then decide if this is who you want to defend to the very end. nableezy - 19:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC) At this point, I'm defending no one but myself. You are conflating "defending a principle" with "defending a person". An attorney who defends a murderer is not synonymous with advocating the act of murder. I never said I agree with this person. I can (and have) defended those on BOTH sides of the political aisle for the same retribution. Buffs (talk) 19:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC) This isnt a court of law, you arent this users legal representative, and this isnt retribution. And you have to be aware that the impression one gets when you keep defending racists and misogynists and fascists that at the very least racism, misogyny, and fascism are not disqualifying attributes to be an editor in good standing here. And yes, you are defending considerably more than yourself rn. Look before you leap is all Im saying. If you still want to leap, be my guest. nableezy - 19:49, 9 August 2022 (UTC) I'm defending principles, not racism, misogyny, or fascism (where the **** do you get that in any way...I don't think you think "fascism" means what you think it means and I see zero evidence presented that he's of that ilk). Assess him based on his merits as you see fit, but I believe in people being judged (on ANY side) for what they've done, not what others think they are thinking or might do. If you think I support racism, despite the fact I reject it, I can't help you. Accusing someone of "misogyny" over something that was NSFW, but objectively true...I'm saying the facts don't line up with the accusation. Fascism? You've completely lost me. Buffs (talk) 01:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Many in the South view their "confederate heritage" as tied to their pride in their relative's service to their state, not what the state did or stood for. Conflating support for their service with support for their state's choices is misleading. That doesn't mean that his statements couldn't be made much more clear. His user box could easily have been modified to show the south and redone some of the phrasing to mean something much more in line with that. Of course, no, KKK or Nazi heritage are things that people generally shun. But Confederate heritage is not so stark. There are many nuances to that. FWIW, I had relatives fight for the Union and I have no love for the institution the Confederacy was founded to preserve (slavery) nor the subsequent racism that followed in the post-war century. I completely support the Civil Rights act and amendments that were passed to curtail this injustice. Buffs (talk) 18:45, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Support of the confederacy is no different than support of someone's ancestors being Nazis who died in WW2. And Bedford has made their feelings on people of color very clear in their edits, as well as their linked social media. WP:NONAZIs isn't just about actual Nazis. We shouldn't subjugate editors to violent rhetoric for the sake of trying to appease editors who have demonstrated by their own word that they are not here to collaborate or build an encyclopedia. PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC) But also, sure, everyone here should be aware that Bedford thinks we are all "mentally ill children" also, so... PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC) I don't see "support of the confederacy" in anything you've posted. I see that he's a descendant. There is a VAST difference between being a Nazi and someone who fought for Germany in WWII. One is a political party who used a country to impose their will. The other is the army that was used to do that. The two are not synonymous. Many former Nazis distanced themselves once they saw where things were going. Others were proud of the work they did while working for the Nazis (example: German scientists and Rocket Engineers), but had no love for the Nazi's beliefs. Some have conflated that pride in work and what was done to advance science as "pro-Nazi", but there are nuances that should be considered. Buffs (talk) 19:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC) The irony of someone who has not bothered to look at their history here, their userpage, their actual edits and responses in this very thread while also trying to mansplain to me what is and is not misogyny is not lost on me. I'm not interested in arguing with someone who doesn't seem to care about facts when presented with them. PRAXIDICAE🌈 19:12, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Any time someone ends a discussion with "you're mansplaining" (my opinion doesn't count because of my gender...the irony is flowing in here...), I think it's pretty safe to say that the argument has been "won". You haven't presented facts. You've presented nothing more than conjecture and accusations. Buffs (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC) And you've presented a whole lot of "some Nazis were good people, actually." You might want to just back off and drop this topic. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 21:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC) I said Germans, not Nazis. If you can't make that distinction, perhaps you should let the adults talk. It sure is easy to just lump everyone together and claim moral superiority isn't it? Buffs (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC) You also said Confederates not Southerners... So which is it? Are you defending Nazi/Confederate heritage or German/Southern heritage? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC) The only time "Confederates" was when I said "descendant of Confederates" when explaining his lineage. "Lineage" (who was in your family) is not synonymous with "heritage" (a culture). To be 100% clear, I am not defending Nazi/Confederate heritage or the associated culture. Such advocacy should be stricken from WP. Buffs (talk) 16:03, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Then strike it "Many in the South view their "confederate heritage" as tied to their pride in their relative's service to their state, not what the state did or stood for." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:10, 10 August 2022 (UTC) What exactly should I strike? What in that statement (which includes a quote) is objectively not true? What in that sentence implies that I endorse such views? Let's put it another way: consider: "Many Muslim extremists believe their troubles are caused by Jews and attack them based on these beliefs. The Nazis also felt similarly." Both sentences are true (albeit simplistic). I don't endorse such views nor do I agree with either of these factions of humanity. Simply writing a fact doesn't mean I endorse/agree with it. You're making a lot of assumptions. Buffs (talk) 17:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC) Christ, you're just going to keep digging deeper, aren't you? You're making a lot of assumptions Have you even read what you're typing? Because, holy fuck, are you making a lot of assumptions yourself. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC) Now that just sounds like just following orders. — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 19:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Agreed, he appears to be invoking the Myth of the clean Wehrmacht. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Not at all. Many aircraft, mechanical, and aerospace personnel had nothing to do with the Holocaust and did not support it when they found out about it. The US openly admitted German people (including scientists and soldiers/airmen/sailors) after WWII if they openly renounced Nazism; most never accepted it in the first place. I think most people in the US support our troops/veterans (polls show they are among the 5 most trusted professions). When our soldiers were sent to Gulf War/Etc, they recognized the soldiers were sent without regard for their personal wishes. Regardless of whether we supported the President at the time, we supported the troops and recognized that they served their country and its ideals, not necessarily the leader or political party in power. The same was true of the German Army/Air Force/Navy. In fact, many of them served leadership roles in the post-war era leading to the overwhelming rejection of said Nazism in Germany. Buffs (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC Oh boy, that is a HUGE gloss over of the de-Nazification of the German state post WWII, and ignores a huge part as to why former Wehrmacht leaders were allowed to lead the new West German Army. It wasn't just "Oh, they disliked the nazis but participated, they're okay". FrederalBacon (talk) 19:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Yeah, thats the Myth of the clean Wehrmacht, its a myth. See also Paragraph 175#Development in West Germany and [50]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC) To be entirely fair, the main reason that myth exists is the reason Buffs believes it. "They let them serve after, they had to be good" is the exact opposite. It's more "They knew the Wehrmacht wasn't clean, and propagated the myth to soften the blow of having former Nazis lead West German army during Cold War". FrederalBacon (talk) 19:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC) I never said the Wehrmacht was "clean" in any way. I'm saying that it wasn't 100% evil either. I'm not saying "they disliked the nazis but participated, they're okay". I'm saying that merely being in the military doesn't mean you automatically support everything your government espouses. By that perverted logic the Union soldiers supported slavery as the Union had four slave states during the war and permitted slavery during the Civil War. The implication that I support criminal prosecution of homosexuals or the persecution of Gypsies/Roma is abhorrent and suggest that you strike that remark. Buffs (talk) 19:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC) I don't think that was the implication there, I think the intention was to show that not everything of Nazi Germany was gone after 1945, however, while Paragraph 175 was terrible, it's not like the persecution of homosexuality was geographically limited to Germany. FrederalBacon (talk) 20:06, 9 August 2022 (UTC) I never stated nor implied "everything of Nazi Germany was gone after 1945". It took decades to get to the point we are at today. I'm well aware, first hand. We faced the same sorts of issues in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc (previous administrators kept in place despite the prior record). I'm only stating that members of the military (or even government) don't necessarily support whoever is in charge. To level the charge at anyone that they support their leaders/actions just because they were in government is just as ignorant as saying that, when power changes hands, they suddenly are all 100% ok. Buffs (talk) 20:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC) That wasn't the implication... The implication is that you need to re-consider your dated historical views or in fact learn about topics you previously knew nothing about. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:45, 9 August 2022 (UTC) The implication that I "know nothing about" these is absurd. You're concluding things I never stated. Buffs (talk) 20:48, 9 August 2022 (UTC) You stated them clearly, you said "In fact, many of them served leadership roles in the post-war era leading to the overwhelming rejection of said Nazism in Germany." which either means you're completely ignorant of history, a Nazi apologist, or both. So which is it? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC) In complete context, I was clearly stating that those that rejected Nazism were among those that served leadership roles in the post-war era led to the overwhelming and eventual rejection of said Nazism in Germany. The fact that you somehow read that as being a Nazi apologist is truly baffling. Buffs (talk) 18:34, 10 August 2022 (UTC) "those that rejected Nazism were among those that served leadership roles in the post-war era led to the overwhelming and eventual rejection of said Nazism in Germany" is just as false, I suggest you read the linked Myth of the clean Wehrmacht, Paragraph 175#Development in West Germany, and the documentary which discusses this in detail. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC) What about that statement is false? Are you saying those put in power by the occupying forces post-WWII were ALL Nazis? While it's definitely true that, for example "90 of the 170 leading lawyers and judges in the then-West German Justice Ministry had been members of the Nazi Party" from 1949 to 1973, it's equally true that 80 were not (simple math). Those are the people I'm referring to, not the former Nazi-party members. They were the ones who helped drive policies and laws to become extremely anti-Nazi over the following decades. Buffs (talk) 17:54, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. If anyone doubts what an utterly repulsive individual we're talking about, see this Facebook post. (His Facebook account is linked from his user page, so this is not outing). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Oh, and I've reversed my !vote above. Show this racist slime the door. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  How is that comment "racist"? Is it because of the minorities that he shot? Buffs (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think you can work it out, taken in line with his other comments (including denying Confederate racism). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think you can spell it out. You're intentionally being vague and crucifying someone over it Buffs (talk) 01:28, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  The totality of what I've seen screams racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic bigot to me, and my comments are aimed at whoever closes this - I'm not trying to convince those who support him. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:44, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Then, to the closing party, I would contend that this is guilt by accusation and without evidence and bid you adieu. Buffs (talk) 18:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Not to mention his blatant contempt for trans people. There are a dozen examples I could place here of why this is a good block, but I know that the ardent supporters will never be convinced so there's not much point in spreading his hate speech any further. PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:58, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  That one's quite ironic really, coming from such a physically repulsive man. Just as well he's happy being a bachelor, really. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  (Oh, and yeah, I know all about WP:NPA and all that, but C Bedford Crenshaw is the kind of person WP:IAR is made for. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:06, 9 August 2022 (UTC))

  Boing, I would kindly ask you strike that. WP:IAR exists, but so does WP:CIVIL. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed. Buffs (talk) 19:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Well, OK then, seeing as you ask so nicely. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:15, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Sorry for reverting Andrevan, but I think this is now formally a community ban thread and as such needs to remain open. nableezy - 19:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Sigh. Alright. Andre🚐 19:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  It became a formal CBAN thread when TAOT made the recommendation to indef him. I'm not sure why there is an idea that this is NOT a CBAN thread, someone proposed a sanction, we are discussing it, it has been a CBAN thread since TAOT proposed a block. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:33, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  WP:NOTBURO, he's now blocked so thread is moot, that's why I tried to close the thread. However, I will respect those who wish to continue discussing it as a CBAN on top of the existing indefblock. Andre🚐 19:34, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  The issue is the block. The reason there is the rush to close is because a block has been placed, so this feels moot, but it's not, the discussion was not done when the admin imposed the block, so the discussion regarding the CBAN should continue. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  A block is not a ban, and currently any single admin may unblock this user if they feel an unblock request merits it. A formal CBAN would require a consensus to overturn. nableezy - 19:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I understand that, and that is my entire point as to why this conversation needs to continue. At this point, the editor could appeal his block and get it removed...but not if consensus is he is banned. The administrator applied a block, thus leading to the overwhelming feeling this should be closed due to mootness, but it ISN'T moot. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry, was trying to reply to Andre. nableezy - 20:00, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I understand. That's fine. Andre🚐 20:06, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I mean, I wanted him indeffed. I didn't really care if it was a community ban or an admin saw his activity and decided to indef. The result is the same. He's completely incompatible with Wikipedia and I hope the door hits him on the way out. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:26, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I understand you just wanted him indeffed, but the way it was done, including the fact that it immediately became a discussion and vote, to me means it is a formal CBAN discussion, even if it doesn't use a "proper" format, or wasn't intended to be one. FrederalBacon (talk) 21:49, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  That's... not how it works. If it were, there'd be a hell of a lot more CBANs in effect right now. People can stop by and support an indef without making it a formal community ban, they're just saying "yeah, this person probably shouldn't be here." — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:04, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  So...the community....is giving input that an editor shouldn't be here, due to their conduct...and recommending them be indef blocked. How is that different than a CBAN discussion? Because it's not titled as such? FrederalBacon (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Essentially yes. We want to be explicitly clear when making a community ban. I've previously seen discussions with lots of users piping in to support a ban on user, but the moment someone claims it's a CBAN folks turn around and deny that it's what they're supporting. Folks can support a simple ban that can be appealed to an administrator, without supporting a full community ban. A CBAN discussion needs to be clear from the outset, or made its own subsection, so there's no confusion or misunderstanding. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• I think it's lovely time for someone to formally close this shitshow Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 19:29, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Before someone closes this ... I have some cred to burn by disagreeing with this block. It was bad enough to nominate someone's political userboxes in one of which they explicitly disavowed racism and in another of which (as Floquenbeam has shown) an extremist emblem was substituted for "GOP" by another editor, presumably without their knowledge. Now they have been indeffed on the basis of their response plus the userboxes, and people are trawling through their social media. Granted, we apparently aren't losing much in the way of article contributions, if you want to be utilitarian. But if they were displaying their politics and thus intimidating other members of the community other than in userboxes (since their statements in the long-ago thread that led to their desysopping; long ago that it was a deus ex Jimbone desysop), I missed it while I slept. They got poked, and I don't see that they were doing harm except by the userboxes. And we still permit political and religious self-expression in userboxes. Going after individual users one by one because someone notices a political/religious userbox with which they disagree amounts to a honeypot, it distracts from our encyclopedic mission, it erodes community trust, it's fundamentally unfair, and of course it's going to provoke uncivil responses from some of those users. It's bear-poking. Fair would be to ban all of the political and religious userboxes. They fail the criterion established after the userbox wars (which were before my time, I note; no, I am not a sock of a Great Old One), namely, not to be divisive. I'm saddened bordering on disgusted, especially since community discussion included several people opposing a block. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  "Fair would be to ban all of the political and religious userboxes." — strongly agree, and would support your RfC should you go for it — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 21:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  I meant to post here too, not just at Bedford's talk page, but I got distracted. Since Yngvadottir mentioned me, though... The short version of my message on Bedford's talk page was that any criticism of Bedford based on the VRWC userbox featuring a fascism logo was unfair, as another editor substituted that logo for a harmless "GOP logo" without Bedford's knowledge. To the extent this might have been what TNT meant by "NONAZIS", I thought it only fair to mention. But as has adequately been demonstrated by others, and as I recall back when he was desysopped, there is a ton of other evidence that Bedford is a thoroughly icky person, so I choose not to spend any of my time arguing against a block that might have partially been based on a misunderstanding of the circumstances around that userbox, when there is so much other evidence that wasn't even mentioned in the block log that we're best off without him. I still think a community ban discussion is silly, as no admin is going to reverse this block unless Bedford says things that he will obviously never say. But from recent experience, if people really, really want to argue the toss, trying to do them a favor and save them time by getting them to not argue the toss won't work. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  It's not just about the userboxes. He was also a massive jerk to multiple editors for no reason, and his social media was openly linked on his userpage, so you're totally wrong to imply that people went out and looked for his social media. He's been uncivil for over a decade. Don't turn this into an opportunity for you to soapbox about how we are the thought police. This was an excellent block of a thoroughly reprehensible user. If we block everyone who openly displays fascist symbols on their userpage (see great right wing conspiracy userbox with the symbol used by the British Union of Fascists), I would be thrilled. I will not share Wikipedia with fascists. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  If we block everyone who openly displays fascist symbols on their userpage (see great right wing conspiracy userbox with the symbol used by the British Union of Fascists). sigh. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  Sigh all you want. When I posted my comment, yours was not visible. At risk of sounding like a troll in saying this, AGF. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  If we block everyone who openly displays fascist symbols on their userpage (see great right wing conspiracy userbox with the symbol used by the British Union of Fascists) - Did you even read Floquenbeam or Yngvadottir's posts? It was changed, just a couple of months ago, when the editor probably wasn't even aware. I'm willing to give a pass on that UBX, given the fact that a different editor put that symbol on there. FrederalBacon (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  The rest of my comment still stands. Bedford should have been blocked years ago, even ignoring that particular userbox. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:20, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  You don't find any disagreement with me on that. While I argued the block was premature given the CBAN discussion, a block was inevitable, clearly incompatible with project goals. And as you've retracted "I will not share Wikipedia with fascists", a statement I was going to take issue with (you can't just block everyone you believe is fascist), I think you and I are both on the same page. FrederalBacon (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  As I said, I have (had) some cred to burn (apparently I am on the verge of soapbox[ing] about how we are the thought police. AGF, as they say). Per Floq, there is a ton of other evidence that Bedford is a thoroughly icky person; per Trainsandotherthings, He was also a massive jerk to multiple editors for no reason. I trust TNT blocked him for recent on-wiki evidence of this ickiness and jerkitude. I am not suggesting anyone violated WP:OUTING. But what matters is whether someone plays nicely with others here on-wiki, how they respond to someone reporting their userboxes at AN/I and someone else nominating them for deletion isn't in and of itself a good indicator of that, and the fact an editor has a Facebook/Twitter/Goodreads/body of writings on Medium/personal website and mentions it on their userpage doesn't make their writings there germane to judging their behavior on-wiki. There's at least one slippery slope here, and applying political litmus tests is both disrespectful of fellow editors and destructive of our goal of having a diverse community of editors working together to improve the encyclopedia. Icky and a jerk is one thing. I hope he was blocked not for that, but for behaving on-wiki in such a way as to have a chilling effect on fellow editors. (And if that chilling effect was just the userboxes, deleting them would have been sufficient.) Because conflating "This person has politically intolerant views" with "This person is intolerant of their fellow editors" is bad, not the least because it will eventually result in a severely limited pool of editors. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:40, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  I personally agree with all of that, but I also cant say that an editor who says I rarely use Wikipedia anyway anymore, after I got robbed of my admin status. If I get banned I will take it as a badge of honor. IT is further proof that no one should take WP seriously, especially considering the Recession debacle. is not saying very bluntly that they are NOTHERE. And that is sufficient to block. nableezy - 00:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Wait, you're advocating banning people based on criticism of Wikipedia? Buffs (talk) 01:31, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Your comment doesnt seem to relate to mine in any way, but no, it is the blunt I lost my admin ball so now I dont want to have anything to do with this place and Im proud of getting banned. Ive found your input to be less than useful, as per usual tbh, and I dont think I have anything else to add to this discussion, so feel free to get in one more reply if youd like. nableezy - 01:38, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Yngvadottir, would you mind expanding on conflating "This person has politically intolerant views" with "This person is intolerant of their fellow editors" is bad? Enterprisey (talk!) 01:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  The following may seem like starry-eyed hippy-dippy "let's all sing kumbaya", but this is a community with the purpose of writing an encyclopedia. What we should care about here is how someone acts on-wiki. If they respect fellow editors of all stripes (and endeavor to maintain NPOV in articles and discussions about encyclopedic coverage), that they are personally an X or an anti-Y is just part of our diversity. We shouldn't chase someone away because some of us or even most of us dislike their politics, religion, or morality; the reason to show someone the door is when they disrespect fellow editors on-wiki. (Tthe references in this discussion to this editor's reaction on Facebook to being blocked strike me as regrettable.) The easiest and fairest way to minimize people being shocked by others' beliefs and values is of course to enforce the ban on userboxes that state political and religious positions. We've had this issue arise in the past with atheist user boxes that mock religious belief; again, that's going to shock and repel some other users, but what matters is whether the editor edits courteously. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:34, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Clarify. You mean, if I had a userbox that read "I'm an atheist". It would get deleted? GoodDay (talk) 04:21, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Let’s not slippery slope this, the only point here is Bedford is WAY over the line on his general behavior. The userboxes turned out to just be the tip of the iceberg. Dronebogus (talk) 07:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Delete userboxes that fail MfDs or blank his userpage. But don't block/ban him, unless he restores the userboxes. Remember, we might be setting a precedent here, on how this kinda situation is handled. GoodDay (talk) 21:16, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Reading this, I have gone the full range from thinking that you can't indef someone for 7 year old diffs and endorsing a strong warning only, to seeing the merit of TNT's bold block, to now feeling like I essentially endorse an indef/cban after I see how much discussion and ridiculous stuff is being posted coming close to defending the neo-confederate position. Yeah, we should outright block Nazis, no we aren't blocking people for thoughtcrime, but when users started deleting the userboxes, the blocked editor could have had a reasonable response, rather than an immature response digging in. Based on this discussion I just removed a bunch of my own lefty politics userboxes. Not because I no longer feel they should be permitted, but because I'm realizing how many wasted hours have already been burned on ad hominems and insane arguments. I don't endorse doxxing or trawling through social media. I do think this thread is giving fuel to the fire for people who hate Wikipedia and think it's a lefty-liberal bastion, though of course it is NOT, but we really shouldn't be litigating actual content fringe views in this thread, people! In conclusion, just for the time wasting alone and the incivility, the block is endorseable. Andre🚐 21:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Andrevan: I have given up on the idea that certain people are ever going to see Wikipedia as anything but left-leaning (which is categorically untrue) after the Talk:Recession drama. The people who believe that seem content to just make things up at this point, so why should we care what they actually think? They'll never be convinced, so we should just ignore them. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 04:10, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  I can't argue with you. Andre🚐 04:11, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  It’s not doxxing if it’s public info Dronebogus (talk) 08:07, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

"we might be setting a precedent here" — one can only hope, but WP:NONAZIS is fairly good already, good idea though! — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 21:20, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support indef or CBAN -- Wikipedia gains nothing from having neo-confederates as members of the community. Show them (and all purveyors of racist ideologies) the door. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 21:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment He seems proud of his block. All the more reason to keep it. He's happy, we're happy, the community is happy. Good riddance. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 23:34, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

    Yay! Dronebogus (talk) 23:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

    Also I’m a mentally ill child, DOUBLE YAY!! Dronebogus (talk) 23:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

CBAN/block endorse voting/discussion

• Endorse block decision, Support indef CBAN. Bedford is incredibly rude and has a laundry list of fundamentally unacceptable beliefs clearly proven here, including Neo-Confederate sympathies, sexism, ableism, anti-vax, transphobia, and probable homophobia. This is different from my vote on blocking in the first place (I’m voting that the admin made the right call and a CBAN), so I’m not vote stacking. Dronebogus (talk) 23:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse block & support CBAN. Yes Bedford is fairly inactive but not quite inactive enough for this to be moot. And ultimately while the notification may have alerted them, it was their choice whether to comment in response. My reasoning is a little different from many FWICT. For me, what it comes down to is I don't think an editor who says they were gangraped [51], [52] (some minor corrections later [53]), [54], [55] when the only thing that happened was discussion followed by Jimbo Wales de-sysoping, should be allowed to edit here. No editor should have to put up with that since effectively Bedford is saying these unnamed but known editors gangraped them which for many reasons is not acceptable hyperbole. For that matter, an editor who refers to their fellow editors as feminazis [56] is also IMO not compatible with editing here. And while it may have only been a single incident on-wiki when combined with their saying perhaps female editors objected because they were jealous over attractive women [57], frankly if this happened now. those two would be enough for me to support an indef until the editor demonstrated they understood how fucking offensive their comments were. While it may have been a long time since they made those comments with the most recent one being over 9 year old, their most recent comments including on this very ANI show they views haven't fundamentally changed, they still don't understand how offensive what they said was. At most maybe they recognise the need to avoid saying it on-wiki. That isn't enough for me when you were willing to say it in the past, especially when the editor hardly ever does anything here. To be clear, I'm not saying an editor has to agree with the concerns about the DYK. It's possible to respectfully disagree i.e. without saying you were gangraped or calling your fellow editors feminazis. I'm aware the gangrape thing was discussed a fair amount at the time and nothing happened. Indeed after a bunch of edit warring and discussion it was allowed to stand until Bedford removed it when changing their user page [58] [59]. That was IMO a very wrong decision which I'm embarrassed to admit I effectively was part of. (I don't think I ever commented but I'm fairly sure I heard about this at the time, it's why I recalled it and I'm fairly sure I didn't fight for a stronger decision.) I still think it's fine we correct this decision now when it's clear while they may have stopped using such offensive language, they clearly don't recognise how wrong what they said is. I'd note this cannot be simply put down to blowing off steam in the aftermath, as shown by the diffs the were still saying the same gangrape shit onwiki in 2013, nearly 5 years afterwards. On that point, for clarity I only refer to what they have said on-wiki. I only looked at a single off-wiki thing which was their comments about transwomen and that was an accident and I'd already formed an opinion by then. (In the spirit of full disclosure, I think I may have looked at some of the off-wiki stuff in 2008 although I don't recall what I saw.) I don't feel it's helpful to get into the issue of whether off-wiki comments should prevent someone from editing here when the on-wiki comments are IMO sufficient disqualification. Nil Einne (talk) 04:21, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse block, support CBAN. The evidence is clear that Bedord is -- as someone said above -- "a thoroughly icky person". His use of disturbing and insulting userboxes, his racist post on Facebook, his comments on trans people, are all very obvious indications that he is not the sort of person who can contribute here in a balanced and NPOV manner. Although Dennix Brown is an admin I have great respect for, he is wrong in categorizing this as "thoughtcrime", because -- like censorship -- thoughtcrime can only be defined in terms of the society as a whole, not in connection with a privately-owned and -operated website. Bedord is welcome to contribute to Conservapedia, or Racistopedia, or Confederapedia if he so wishes, but here we have -- or should have -- a much higher standard, and Bedford has shown his personal disdain for it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse block, support CBAN. Support for Confederacy, open transphobia and homophobia, misogyny and all this shit about America "held hostage"... This guy clearly has been collecting every alt-right bullshit he came across. Per WP:NONAZIS, we don't need his type. But, for sure, he'll be top shot editor on Conservapedia, they'll accept him with open arms raised right hands. And, as farewell gift, I'll give him imaginary brown shirt from my drawer. Arado Ar 196 (C✙T) 06:28, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  metapedia would be more his speed if he is a nazi sympathizer, conservapedia is probably closer to his actual beliefs Dronebogus (talk) 07:46, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• Endorse block, support CBAN. Just to be known – I already voted to indef Bedford, this vote is meant to support the action of TheresNoTime and a CBAN. As a community, we definitely don't need someone who displays open support for the Confederacy, transphobia, homophobia, misogyny and various conspiracy theories (not to mention the additude towards other editors). There should be no place on Wikipedia for people with such views, regardless of their past merits. —Sundostund (talk) 09:45, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Comment - I think we are engaging in the Wikipedia equivalent of sending Al Capone to prison for tax evasion. It's hard to argue that Bedford did enough in the very near-term that would rise to the level of an indef block and a CBAN. We are essentially banning him for all of his prior unprosecuted misdeeds - something we should have done years ago but failed to. Say what you will about how much this block-and-ban makes us feel good; Wikipedia policy (I emphasize policy and not essays) does not provide for this.--🌈WaltCip-(talk) 12:48, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  You’re talking about sending Capone to prison like it’s a bad thing. Dronebogus (talk) 13:16, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  The Capone metaphor was a bit extreme, but what I'm pointing out that we are not blocking and banning for active, continued and ongoing disruption to the Wikipedia. The nature of this block is nearly entirely cathartic, and the precedence established by that is what concerns me. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 13:28, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you. That is my point as well. Buffs (talk) 18:36, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  We have banned people for having neo-Nazi, racist, or homophobic/transphobic beliefs before. So it's not so much precedent as established behavior. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:32, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Those people usually out themselves within the first few days of being on Wikipedia, usually by diving straight into a contentious subject area like AmPol; making questionable edits sourced to phony/unreliable sources; and getting into ideological/battleground arguments with other users. Their reprehensible beliefs tend to be window-dressing for behavior incompatible with Wikipedia policy, and so they usually end up being banned because of improper edits, rather than for their beliefs. In comparison, Bedford was provoked into responding by someone trawling through his userspace, and then banned after his on-wiki and off-wiki response. This isn't really how we do things. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 12:22, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  I don't understand why people keep talking as if someone was looking through Bedford's userspace as if looking for stuff to find offensive. No evidence has been presented of this which IMO makes it close to a personal attack. The most likely thing that happened is someone saw Bedford somewhere and happened to check out their user page. Maybe they were headed to the talk page, maybe they were just interested. When I visit someone user space I am not looking for something to find offensive. I'm just looking. If I do happen to see something to cause concern (which hasn't ever really happened to me) I may raise the issue probably directly with the editor which is reasonable. If I don't get a satisfactory response and I feel the issue is serious enough I may take it someone appropriate. In this case, since the editor hadn't edited in ages I can understand why an editor might skip that step. Userpages are supposed to be for editors to say something about themselves or their editing that other editors may find be interested in. Unlike subpages, they aren't intended to be hidden or something only the editor ever sees. Nil Einne (talk) 13:58, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  I really don't think it's reasonable, no matter how long someone has been gone for, to go straight to WP:ANI for objectionable userpage content without any intermediate steps or without supporting diffs indicating that attempts at mediation have failed. ANI is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems. (bolded mine) I think a behavioral problem ceases to be chronic if there is a long span of inactivity. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 15:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  With all due respect, IMHO it was WAY better to send Al Capone to prison only for tax evasion, than to allow him to roam around freely, live in his "hard earned" wealth and immerse himself in his "business" ventures. Sometimes, doing something is better than doing nothing. Also, mistakes and failures of the past can be (and should be) corrected, and that is how I see this indef block and a CBAN. —Sundostund (talk) 13:21, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  WaltCip: blocks are intended to be preventative not punitive. From their replies, it's clear this is someone who continues to think it's okay to say they were gangraped over those disputes and de-sysop. The fact they weren't blocked over it is very unfortunate, but until Bedford understands how fucking offensive that comparison is, I don't see they should be welcome here and especially if they aren't here to actual do anything else productive. If they hadn't said anything, maybe we could just hope they've learnt, but they decided to speak up and demonstrate they don't understand. Nil Einne (talk) 13:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• FYI I've self-requested review of my block at WP:AARV — for what it's worth, I'd appreciate any comments y'all make there to remain strictly on the topic of my admin actions (i.e. best to continue the "back and forth" here, if you're so inclined) — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 13:24, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, it's a tad discomforting to know that editors are monitoring the userpages of other editors. GoodDay (talk) 15:13, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

And why's that GoodDay? User pages don't belong to the user, and patrolling user space edits finds a lot of promotional spam (among other less savoury things) — surely you're not discomforted to know that such pages are monitored and deleted? — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 15:30, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Suppose you, Dronebogus or anyone else had userboxes & someone took offense to any of them? It would be quite upsetting, to the editor who's userboxes are MfD. I'm more concerned with whether an editor is pushing their PoV on Wikipedia pages. GoodDay (talk) 15:42, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

User pages are commonly viewed by other editors. Within reason, they should not include objectionable content. I'd say announcing that you're proud of your confederate heritage falls inside that. Wouldn't you agree? —VersaceSpace 🌃 15:48, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't share Bedford's views on the Confederacy. If he isn't pushing his views on that topic, onto mainspace or in discussions? Then don't bother with him. GoodDay (talk) 15:52, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• Endorse/CBAN This may be the first time I've ever disagreed with Yngvadottir, but I simply don't see that we're losing anything here. What are the positives of leaving Bedford unblocked? Nothing, and they've proved that themselves. What are the negatives? Well, just read up this page. Black Kite (talk) 15:59, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support block, endorse CBAN. I already supported a block above, this comment serves as confirmation that I also support a CBAN. —VersaceSpace 🌃 16:06, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse/CBAN. All else aside, they're clearly and persistently uncivil, with no indication that they're going to improve. This is a collaborative project, which depends on working with others; editors have the right to their private beliefs but not the right to express those beliefs on-wiki in a way that insults other editors. And when people point out that their userboxes are insulting, Bedford has constantly responded in an insulting and belittling manner. --Aquillion (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block - While I can't sympathize with many of Bedford's personal views on various topics (as communicated by hundreds of userboxes on his user page), I can't see any policy-based rationale for this block. Bedford had some objectionable and inappropriate userboxes on his user page. Ok, the solution is to remove the userboxes and nominate them for deletion, not jump straight to an indef block. Bedford also made some mildly uncivil remarks in a recent MfD, referring to another editor as "childish" and "ignorant". This type of language, while discouraged, is hardly worthy of an indefinite block. If we handed out indef blocks to everyone who made comments on this level, we wouldn't have any editors left. Hell, I would've been indef blocked 15 years ago if that were the standard operating procedure here. It's not. Therefore, I have to believe that this user was blocked because he made a userbox that implies that he disapproved of President Obama and later changed it to imply his support for the January 6th insurrection. Sure, some of these views are reprehensible in my opinion, but I don't think there is a policy basis to block someone for expressing unpopular views (assuming those views don't rise to the level of overt racism, discrimination, hate speech, etc. - and disapproving of Obama is not inherently racist). Some people are reaching back in Bedford's editing history, pointing to edits from 10 years ago as justification for a block. Remember, blocks are preventative, not punitive. Again, if someone has an objectionable userbox, remove it from the page, nominate it for deletion, give the user a warning, and move on. If the user restores the userbox despite the warning, then we can think about blocking them. This block was premature and not policy-based. As much as I disagree with just about all of Bedford's personal views, I don't think WP will benefit by blocking all users that fail to conform to a certain limited range of political beliefs. There are already enough accusations of WP becoming a liberal echo chamber, we don't need to add fuel to the fire by blocking a harmless editor that makes 3 edits every 5 years. —⁠ScottyWong⁠— 21:33, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block per WaltCip and Scottywong. While I find Bedford repugnant, I frankly don't see a policy-based reason to block him. Will I mourn for Bedford if he gets banned? Certainly not. But do I think the OP should have found something better to do instead of stirring up controversy with an inactive editor? Absolutely. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse/CBAN Much of my thoughts have already been surmised by others, particularly Sundostund, Dronebogus and Praxidicae. In coming to this opinion, I've read through this discussion, the current discussion on Bedford's talk page, all three of the userbox MfDs, the 2008 ANI thread that lead to Bedford's desysop, and recent posts on Bedford's Twitter and Facebook (both are linked on his userpage). In doing so I've seen many uncivil comments, displays of sexism, racism, homophobia, and transphobia. WP:BLOCKPREVENTATIVE says that blocks should be used for three things 1. prevent imminent or continuing damage and disruption to Wikipedia; 2. deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior; and 3. encourage a more productive, congenial editing style within community norms. While this obviously fails #1, because Bedford has been mostly inactive since late 2013, I believe it meets #2. Bedford's on wiki behaviour has not changed in the 14 years since Jimbo desysopped him, and his recent off-wiki reactions to the block by TheresNoTime show absolutely no sign of self reflection or acceptance that his behavour is the problem here, as he continues to lash out and blame others for the consequences of his choices and actions. As such I believe this block meets criteria #2 of BLOCKPREVENTATIVE, because it will inherently deter the continuation of present, disruptive behaviour that, based on his history, is likely to repeat and persist in perpituity. The best time to indef or CBAN Bedford was when he was last active, the second best time to indef or CBAN him is now. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support CBAN - The editor has been lurking for more than a decade, prepared to cause disruption when the opportunity was right, as is indicated by replying quickly at MFD and changing the date in the userbox. An ongoing risk to the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:29, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block – Completely frivolous and moralistic block. As for potential disruption to WP, the user is not active, so there's our answer. I also concur with what's been said above wrt echo chamber, thoughtcrime, etc. Nutez (talk) 08:04, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block. For disclosure I voted above (pre-block) opposing it, and now I'm voting to undo the block. This was a bad block. It was made arbitrarily at a point in the discussion when there was clearly no consensus for a block. Instead the admin in question took it upon themselves to ignore the discussion and do it anyway. I agree with Nutez, Scottywong, and others that Bedford was not disrupting the project and this was clearly motivated by his silly userboxes that could have simply been deleted. The idea that him removing a newsletter from his talk page is homophobic is also laughable. Undo the block and only reinstate it if he actually disrupts the project. — Czello 08:20, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block. Ah, we're still talking; I came here to read the close. Sorry, Black Kite and others, and thanks for the offer of an alternate venue, TNT, but similarly to ScottyWong, I don't see this as a policy-compliant block. I hadn't read Bedford's response here when I typed my above statements; I now have, and have looked at his talk page responses too, and while he is providing yet another example of the axiom that those who call fellow editors immature—in this case, childish—have some learning about adult styles of discourse to do themselves, he presented no threat to the encyclopedia, imminent or otherwise. He made only one response here (to my surprise), and I disagree with some of the characterizations of its level of rudeness. Calling him NOTHERE based on his churlish reactions to being attacked (which is what it amounts to, including insistence that he could not mean what he said in one userbox) was an overreaction, and adding a NONAZIS rationale based on an emblem someone else had slipped into a userbox that other editors were transcluding onto their userpages was unjust. In my opinion. Sorry again, folks; justice matters, tolerance should not be only for viewpoints we agree with, diversity includes everyone, be better than them, a big tent gives us a better encyclopedia, etc., your bromide here. Yngvadottir (talk) 09:08, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Diversity doesn’t include people who openly express hate for anyone who isn’t like them, which extends far beyond the stupid nazi box here Dronebogus (talk) 13:12, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  tolerance should not be only for viewpoints we agree with, diversity includes everyone - Yes, racists, nazis, everyone. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  I do hope you’re being sarcastic Dronebogus (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• 1 week block for his uncivil comments and pa. I think those who support indef focus too much on his previous conduct and those who oppose block overlook his recent personal attacks. I think one week block would be a balanced approach.--Madame Necker (talk) 10:20, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose block - this would set a dangerous precedent --FMSky (talk) 13:40, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
  • The precedent being that racists and neoconfederates aren't welcome here? Because that is exactly the point. Wikipedia gains nothing and loses a lot by keeping this user around. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 13:49, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

    What do you mean by keeping this user around? He barely edits, and this whole kerfuffle is quite likely to provoke him into making a come-back to "trigger the libs" or smth. No need to give him and his ilk more hate fuel. Please ignore and move on. Nutez (talk) 21:31, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

    All the more reason to ban him Dronebogus (talk) 01:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• This community doesn't need people who express support for the Confederacy, as well as racism, homophobia, transphobia, mysogyny, etc. Should someone who displays things like this, this, this and this on their social networks accounts (which they themselves linked from their user page here) be a member of this project? Someone who sees their fellow users as "mentally ill children"? They should be let to enjoy their "badge of honor" (as they called their indef block), far away from this project and regardless of their past merits. —Sundostund (talk) 15:50, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Goodness, is this where we're at? Scouring their social media to find objectionable content? — Czello 19:36, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  No, he’s literally got it linked on his shrine to his ego userpage for all to see. One click and you’re exposed to this trash. Dronebogus (talk) 00:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  There is the option of ignoring his userpage, though. GoodDay (talk) 00:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  You keep saying that, and yet userpages are kind of… meant to be seen. Dronebogus (talk) 01:07, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  See something you don't like? figuratively walk on by. What if an editor was or editors were to complain about any of your userboxes? These things have the potential to backfire, down the road. GoodDay (talk) 01:15, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  “Don’t like don’t read” doesn’t fly on WP; we have this thing called Wikipedia:UBCR Dronebogus (talk) 07:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  Also, I have had userboxes sent to MfD in the past (albeit for more innocuous reasons) and I like to think I handled it a bit more maturely than Bedford here. Dronebogus (talk) 07:52, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  Link Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Dronebogus/Userboxes/CBT Dronebogus (talk) 07:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  In the past, I've come across some userboxes that one 'could' consider offensive, but I chose to not bother with it. It was their userpage, not mine. Anyways, I guess will just have to agree, that we approach these situations differently. GoodDay (talk) 12:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Are the supports for a ban, mostly due to Bedford's off-Wikipedia views? GoodDay (talk) 16:05, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Mine is mostly based on the yes very old but not that far back in his edit history editing of placing "the War of Northern Aggression" in Wikipedia's voice for the American Civil War and the general contempt for the community expressed in his parting message. nableezy - 16:12, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose block this is entirely over-the-top and pointless waste of time precipitated by nothing other than political dislike. The editor hasn't been editing, and their only recent actions were grumbling—hardly the stuff we block over. There was no policy-based reason for the block, let alone trying for a ban out-of-process. It could have been ignored like any reasonable adult should, and the encyclopedia would be no worse off. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Agree, oppose Gross overreaction. We frequently encounter prejudiced editors, and handle them proportionately to the harm they’re causing. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:47, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed! I oppose on the same grounds. Buffs (talk) 17:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support Ban & CBAN - Let's not split hairs here: we cannot tolerate users who support racist, sexist or homophobic belief systems here & still call this an encyclopedia which is friendly to others. Certain belief systems are simply incompatible with that goal, and are not simple "opinions" which one may agree or disagree ove. Bedford has made it very clear that not only have they no interest in actually contributing to the encyclopedia anymore, they support bigoted beliefs, hold the entire community in contempt, and are proud of being abrasive & offensive. Further, the argument that we cannot consider off-wiki behavior is foolhardy. It is simply more evidence that his views are incompatible with this project, and he will not be able to work with others appropriately. This is not "political dislike," this is protecting project members from someone who has espoused agreement with racist ideology. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:49, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Well, looking at the history on this noticeboard, we do not promptly kick off racists. My impression is that we’re Western-Europe/north-American centric, in that we respond more vigorously to issues in that region than others. For example, here’s an anti-Armenian genocide denier Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1104#Ethno-nationalist editing by user:Aloisnebegn. Received a 31-hour block. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 19:40, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  It is worth pointing out that when Bedford was de-mopped by Jimbo in 2008, off-wiki content (a Myspace blog post) was given as the primary reason behind the action, and ArbCom has affirmed that they can take note of off-wiki behavior for settling on-wiki disputes. I understand the idea of not using social media against someone, because social media isn't always representative of someone as a person. But there is precedent for having used off-wiki content before, including for a decision regarding this very editor. FrederalBacon (talk) 20:01, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  So...indef for something 15 years ago? That seems to be a stretch. Buffs (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  That is absolutely not what I said, not my argument, and not even the point. I wasn't arguing for indef due to the same reason Jimbo removed his mop, I was saying there is precedent for considering off-wiki content for on-wiki disputes. FrederalBacon (talk) 22:02, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support block / CBAN per many of the above comments, especially Sideswipe9th's point about criterion #2 of WP:BLOCKPREVENTATIVE. I would also argue that points about the diversity of the editor pool cut both ways: as it stands we do a shit job of retaining minority editors, and treating people like this with kid gloves –– or even just habitually looking the other way –– only contributes to a toxic atmosphere. Finally, the user in question has made it abundantly clear that they are not here to build an encyclopedia, so I'd suggest that much of the hand-wringing about on- versus off-Wiki behavior is moot. It was a good block and it should be solidified as a formal CBAN. Generalrelative (talk) 19:29, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Weak oppose indef CBAN, support TBAN on politics of the United States, broadly construed. I don't think that a broad, site-wide CBAN can be justified here as being narrowly tailored towards prevention of disruption. Blocks can be used to deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior, but I think that a TBAN on the history of the United States would be more narrowly tailored towards deterring this individual's disruption than a CBAN. If the individual chooses to violate that TBAN, or socks to get around it, then a CBAN would also likely be warranted, but I'm generally hesitant to immediately indef people with a (practically) clean block log when they aren't causing editing disruptions in those topic areas nor violating any specific community sanctions against them. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 20:52, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  With respect to social media, no I don't think that postings on social media is a per se reason for a CBAN except when that posting in and of itself disrupts Wikipedia (such as through harassment, canvassing, leaking confidential checkuser data, etc.). Just because I can find the twitter account of an editor that's very clearly connected to their Wikipedia profile and discover that they deny well-documented human rights abuses doesn't merit a CBAN unless they are merely using Wikipedia as a tool in furtherance of their atrocity denial (i.e. they have a long-term agenda inconsistent with building an encyclopedia w.r.t. a particular problem area). And if they are otherwise productive outside of that problem area, it might be better to TBAN them from a specific topic area so that they can productively edit elsewhere. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 21:03, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  The reason my opposition to a CBAN is was weak is that Bedford really hasn't... done all that much other than be really pointy on their own around 2021. The part of the equation above that says if they are otherwise productive outside of that problem area is important to a TBAN vs CBAN calculation. I just don't think that we have an affirmative case that the user is activley using Wikipedia in an attempt to cause disruption; the creation of two inflammatory userboxes c. 2008 is not justification to block a user now even if that user is making poor policy arguments in favor of keeping them. We can clean up the userboxes and move on without having ginormous ban threads if the user doesn't really come here to begin with; the things that specifically concern me are the previously linked diff's edit summary as well as calling an editor childish for nominating two userboxes for deletion in good faith. And, while a temporary block while the deletion discussions are going on makes perfect sense as a preventative measure, I'd really expect to see more of a demonstrated history of bad-faith editing/personal attacks if we're going to implement an indef CBAN for repeated pattern of disruption. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 21:28, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Wishing death upon another editor is the ultimate rejection of that editor's human dignity and is clearly inconsistent with our community's civility norms, but a single diff that was made ten years ago is not just cause for a CBAN today. But my change in opinion really isn't about a single diff; the more that I look into this editor's conduct on Wikipedia both before and after they ceased to frequently edit, the more and more that I find that the editor has had long-run civility issues that predate even their 2008 desysopping. Since those civility issues have continued to rear their ugly head, I would support a CBAN for long-term problems with personal attacks and incivility that have been present since at least 2008. The recent personal attacks by the editor were mild in extent (referring to another editor's actions as "childish") but they show that the editor's attitude with respect to civility in discussions is still out-of-line well-accepted community expectations that were present, even the core civility norms that appear to have been around for many, many years. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:20, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• I don't care one way or the other about a CBAN, but the block was appropriate to begin with, subsequent events have removed any possible doubt about that, and obviously the block should remain. --JBL (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support CBAN We don't need neo-confederates here. Paraphrasing an old ban reason from long ago, his self-identification with groups that are detrimental to Wikipedia's reputation should be enough to get rid of him. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 07:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support CBAN, but not quite for reason block was made. I don't think that we should, as a rule, indef neo-Confederates who disavow Confederate racism. The Lost Cause is a reprehensible ideology, but it's one that a lot of people wind up in based on poor education and community echo chambers. And, as others have said, we are not the thought police. I do think that if someone is going to hold a view as fringe as that, they should expect that it will upset people, and have a duty to not be obnoxious about that view in a way that will increase discord in the community. As Bedford has flaunted his support for an entity built on the systemic enslavement, rape, and murder of Black people, and has, when criticized for that, characterized his critics as "mentally ill children", I see him as deliberately causing disruption here, with no possitive contributions to offset that, and so I support a CBAN, even if I would have rather this be resolved less dramatically. Also, I still would like an answer as to whether he stands by saying Jimbo should kill himself. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 08:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think this is probably the most valid of all arguments to CBAN someone. It's worth noting that we might normally give latitude to unsavory beliefs if the editor did two things: avoiding battleground conduct in relation to those associated areas, and contributing significantly and positively in an unrelated area of editing. For example, an openly neo-Confederate editor whose contributions are 99% to mathematics and engineering articles without doing any work in AmPol or AmHist is likely to garner much more leeway in the eyes of the community. We even openly admit on WP:UPNOT that productive editors get a lot of flexibility in this regard: The Wikipedia community is generally tolerant and offers fairly wide latitude in applying these guidelines to regular participants. (bolded mine) This is why I don't buy the argument of "we just don't want any editor with those beliefs", because I think those arguments fall apart when dealing with more complicated and nuanced cases. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 13:17, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Where did Bedford say that about Jimbo? I’m generally in favor of CBANing/blocking people who tell directly other editors to kill themselves, but would you please link the diff? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Here: [60] 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 14:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - User:GoodDay wrote:

  Are the supports for a ban, mostly due to Bedford's off-Wikipedia views?

  I haven't seen Bedford's off-wiki views and don't intend to look at them. I favor a CBAN because they are disrupting Wikipedia, by being a lurker who didn't edit until their userbox became contentious, and then changing it to make it more inflammatory. Lurking with intent to disrupt when the time is right is not good faith absence from the encyclopedia, but is bad faith silence. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:19, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, I would've (and did) advised, that Bedford not contest the MfDs & remain silent overall. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe you should start formally and publicly offering your services as a Wiki-attorney. xD 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 15:28, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Endorse block/cban per my previous, extensive reasoning. PRAXIDICAE🌈 15:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose He's not a self-described Nazi, and the usrboxes in question could equally be interpreted as tongue-in-cheek memes. His only recent crime seems to have been some rudeness to other editors. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 15:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse block and support CBAN. I doubt I could say it much better than, e.g., Sideswipe9th did above. XOR'easter (talk) 16:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse whateve purges this moron from the project. He had me at "What's the difference between Pfizer and Kyle Rittenhaus? Rittenhouse's three shots worked." Yuk, yuk. EEng 18:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse block/Support CBAN - Even when an admin all those years ago, Bedford was clearly WP:NOTHERE. The fact that those clearly polemic userboxes were observed on his userpage only recently only makes it worse because they have been sitting there for years. I was only going to support a TBAN for the American Civil War and US politics, but the misogyny, subtle racism, and Facebook post discovered by EEng has convinced me that a CBAN is the only remedy. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 19:35, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Jkudlick: Beside that post, there are also these ones (at least so far) – [61], [62], and [63]. And they were discovered by Boing! said Zebedee, Praxidicae and Rockstone35, as far as I remember. —Sundostund (talk) 19:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  There's far worse currently on his FB and Twitter. PRAXIDICAE🌈 19:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  Specifically, far worse than what we already posted, his comments about specific editors made in just the last few hours alone should disqualify this block from ever being overturned. Absolutely disgusting. PRAXIDICAE🌈 19:47, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Praxidicae: Those new comments should be shared here as well. The editors in question have the right to know what the subject of this discussion think about them personally. And, those editors who are yet to vote here have the right to see what kind of individual we are dealing with. —Sundostund (talk) 19:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not going to share comments about a specific editor that are particularly disgusting and hurtful. I will, however, share with a funct if needed but I'm not going to help him spread his blatantly transphobic hatred by posting his comments publicly. PRAXIDICAE🌈 20:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  I've seen his latest. And I'm sure the person targeted will regard his comments as nothing more than microcephalic impotence and will not be the least bit upset. But no, let's not give him any more air - the most productive thing we can do with someone like this is ignore him. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Boing! said Zebedee: Speaking only for myself, and from my own point of view, I can say this – I can be offended, hurt and upset only by people who are important in my life. Being "targeted" by an... individual like this, would be just laughable. —Sundostund (talk) 22:12, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Endorse block/CBAN per the most recent revelations above. I think all of the bridges have been burned, or at least the ones that weren't already.--🌈WaltCip-(talk) 20:20, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse ban. I was going to sit this one out, but Praxidicae's comments above tipped me over the fence. --Dylan620 (he/him · talk · edits) 01:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse block/CBAN Not that there isn't enough evidence to support a ban already, but back when Bedford was active, he once tried to sneak a "War of Northern Aggression" reference into an article about a modern U.S. highway. The article appeared as a DYK not long after (which is why I noticed it at the time); fortunately someone caught and removed the reference before then, but he came awfully close to sneaking neo-Confederate language a click away from the Main Page. Normally I wouldn't cite decade-old diffs as behavioral evidence, but given that (a) he seems to have the same attitude toward the American Civil War today and (b) some editors question whether his personal beliefs are relevant to editing, it seems worth mentioning. I wasn't all that surprised when I learned the editor behind that edit got desysopped for making bigoted comments; honestly, we should have banned him while he was still an active editor, and there's no reason to leave the door open for him to come back. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 02:21, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Vandalism on Chekavar page

Reported the user on vandalism page, they told to report this here.The user Arushaan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Constantly vandalising on the page Chekavar, removing sourced content and replacing his own caste slur words like these : [64] , [65] , [66] to attack a particular caste. He has been engaged in edit war [67],[68],[69],[70],[71] even after many warning.From his contributions[72] it is evident that he is a Nair caste vandal to promote his caste and attack and vandalise other caste pages — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ningalonnichpovuka (talk • contribs)

(Non-administrator comment) You are obliged to notify the reported party. I have done so for you. It's also good to sign your posts. Otherwise, this seems sanctionable to my non-mod eyes. Kleuske (talk) 20:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Kleuske, noted. Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 21:01, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

He was given a GS notice by Ponyo for WP:GS/CASTE. It appears he hasn't edited since then. I don't know if any further action is required after the GS notice, until there are further issues, and even then, the fact that this is an area with General Sanctions in place would preclude the need for another ANI, simply a request for sanctions already in place. FrederalBacon (talk) 21:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Blocked as an obvious sock of Nair Community. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:50, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Apostolic Catholic Church

• Apostolic Catholic Church (Philippines) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Rafaelosornio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ploreky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User Rafaelosornio keeps revisionizing the Article, disregarding wikipedia's rule of reference and notability, he keeps deleting subjects after subjects. Also disregarding my chats on his user pager.

I wish that action should be taken. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ploreky (talk • contribs) 05:48, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• Apostolic Catholic Church (Philippines) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This looks like a content dispute. Can you both not come to some agreement on the article talk page? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 08:24, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

The user Ploreky places content not in accordance with the referred sources. --Rafaelosornio (talk) 13:35, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

The article's issues are now being discussed at Talk:Apostolic Catholic Church (Philippines)#POV-pushing, FICTREFs, OR. I hope that User:Ploreky will wait for consensus before changing the article again. It is possible that Ploreky is not familiar with how Wikipedia works. We expect that our copyright policy and our sourcing policy will be followed. EdJohnston (talk) 16:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive unsourced/poorly sourced content restoration

Molave Quinta, DoraExp

The first user above is repeatedly restoring unsourced/poorly sourced content while ignoring warnings for the same. They have restored such content six times in the past week, first twice at the page Naqshbandi on 4 August [73], [74], which they were warned/informed about [75], and where they also raised a personalized talk page complaint [76], before having the situation explained (again) by @HistoryofIran [77]. Then on 8 August, by means of what I can only assume were tracking my contributions, they arrived at Ashura and Passover, where they proceeded to again restore unsourced/poorly sourced content [78], [79], leading me to issue a final, level-4 warning [80]. On 9 August, they went ahead and reverted again anyway [81], this time tangling up subsequent meticulous editing at Ashura by another editor @Ealinggirl1954 [82] - their seeming inability to partially or selectively revert raising further basic competence questions. At this point I tried raising an advanced vetting report, but to no avail. In a final odd twist, after I made a final attempt to remove the poorly sourced content and restore Ealinggirl1954's edits, the second editor above, DoraExp, comes online for the first time since January and makes a similar, indiscriminate revert to restore the poorly sourced content and undo Ealinggirl1954's edits again. [83] Although I'm not 100% sure what to make of this, the behaviour and timing are odd. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:01, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

This reminds of my previous report [84] and SPI [85]. Random users/IPs appearing out of nowhere and making the same disruption in religious topics. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:08, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

DoraExp's contribution history screams out sleeper sock. nableezy - 15:20, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Well I didn't want to be accused of jumping to conclusions, but yeah, as editors frequently note: if it quacks like a duck... Iskandar323 (talk) 18:24, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and edit warring by User: ZaniGiovanni in many articles

ZaniGiovanni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

P.S. I have removed large sections of this report due to concerns that it was TLDR

Introduction

User: ZaniGiovanni has been engaging in edit wars and disruptive editing in many articles (as evidenced by their talk page, riddled with warnings and concerns by veteran editors among others (just a few examples[86] [87] [88] [89] This report is mainly related to three articles (Eastern Anatolia Region, Lahmacun, and Cilicia).

What I did in the Eastern Anatolia Region article

• Removed the Armenian translation of the article, which was "Western Armenia", and not "Eastern Anatolia Region" [90]. This article has nothing do with Armenia nor Wikiproject Armenia

• Removed the historical parts of the article (which solely mentions Armenia/Armenians, and no other ethnic groups which inhabited the region throughout history, further proving the POV-pushing prevalent in the article)[91] [92]

Why did you make such changes?

This article is about a Turkish administrative region formed in 1941 (per First Geography Congress, Turkey and). As evidenced by all other articles relating to the Geographical regions of Turkey, these articles are not about the history of the land in which the administrative region is found on (see Marmara Region as an e.g., just one of the articles on the administrative divisions of Turkey). There's separate articles for that; these information are irrelevant to this article. This article is solely about the administrative region founded in 1941, it's terrain, population, etc, and information *beyond* the aforementioned year. The article's talk page and archive is riddled with concerns like this (e.g.[93]).

What happened?

ZaniGiovanni undid my content removals. Soon after, I raised the issue in the talk page; there were three participants in said conversation; ZaniGiovanni, myself, and BerkBerk68, who had also expressed the same concerns (e.g.[94] [95])

They were the only person to oppose this change; and as such I reminded them that consensus does not require unanimity, that they were refusing to get the point, and that no one is obligated to satisfy them. Thus, I had told them that I would be restoring the edit, and that if they attempted to edit war, an ANI report was to be made regarding his disruptive editing[96]

On to the Lahmacun article, what did I do?;

• Added that Ayfer Bartu (the person making the *controversial* claims) *claims* these statements; they shouldn't be accepted as facts due to the controversial nature of the claim.[97]

Why did you make such changes?

The claims are controversial, and contains only a single source. Even if the claim was uncontroversial, NPOV must be preserved to uphold the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia; and in this case, NPOV was seriously lacking (per WP:YESPOV).

What happened?

ZaniGiovanni claims that I had cast doubt on the source and reverted the edit.[98] I undid this, because I had not cast doubt on the source, I rephrased the sentencing to make it more NPOV[99] I performed this revert recently and haven't encountered a problem as of yet. However, by the nature of ZaniGiovanni's persistent disruptive editing and edit warring, I expect my edit to be reverted once more; which is also why I've included it here

On to the Cilicia article, what did OTHER users do?;

• Just a few examples of users stating that Cilicia is a region located in Anatolia (specifically southern Anatolia, Turkey) [100] [101] [102]

What did ZaniGiovanni do?

• Replaced "Anatolia" with "Levant"[103] [104]

What did I do?

• Added that Cilicia is indeed a region located in Anatolia (Turkey).[105]

Why did I do this?

The Levant is a much more broader term and encompasses a much larger geography, plus the borders of the Levant do not include all of Cilicia's, either. Thus, labelling the region as being a part of the Levant is not only plain wrong, but disinformation as it is being done on purpose

Conclusion

These are only just a few examples of ZaniGiovanni's disruptive and unconstructive editing. Thus, I suggest a topic ban on all Turkey-related articles, or at the very least, article bans for this user, because they are clearly disruptively editing many articles related to the country and are failing to make a positive impact on said articles; rather, they are doing the polar-opposite. Thanks. zenzyyx_^{talk 16:48, 10 August 2022 (UTC)}

References

• comment: looking at Eastern Anatolia Region, one would notice that zenzyyx is the one edit-warring to keep the article the way they deem it should be while the discussion is still ongoing, while telling others that they are edit warring and being disruptive. failing to make a positive impact? You threatened to drag every editor you disagree with to ANI. Fully ignoring any point made in the discussion. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 17:18, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I already explained my reason for making my edits above, please feel free to read it.

"You threatened to drag every editor you disagree with to ANI"

I don't know what you mean by "every editor", it was only yourself and ZaniGiovanni. I explained my reasons for this, too. Again, please feel free to read my explanation for doing so above.

"Fully ignoring any point made in the discussion"

Never happened. I wasn't the one relentlessly Wikipedia:Status quo stonewalling, or just stonewalling in general.

Also, let me remind you that you were the one who undid my edits and edit warred[106] [107] despite knowing nothing of what was discussed on the talk page[108] zenzyyx^{talk 17:31, 10 August 2022 (UTC)}

• I don't think you understand what stonewalling means. Talk:Eastern Anatolia Region#Formatted as an attack article + unneeded and irrelevant information included – this discussion / comments and your subpar at best arguments for blanking chunks of information have been answered by me. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:42, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• I know what stonewalling means. It seems that you do not, which explains your edit warring, disruptive editing, and relentless preservation of the status-quo, especially in the Eastern Anatolia Revion article, which is in fact irrelevant and has been explained multiple times why it is. zenzyyx^{talk 17:15, 10 August 2022 (UTC)}

• My interaction with this user is limited to Eastern Anatolia Region, where they disruptively removed sourced content about Armenians and Armenian genocide from the article without providing any policy based valid arguments [109], [110], [111], [112], [113], and having no consensus (later in the talk page, Zenzyyx argues 2 editors against 1 means consensus, ignoring strength of the arguments. Another user also reverted them so even by their own definition there is no consensus for their edits [114], [115]).

I made sure to contact them in their talk page and addressing their mini essay "edit summary" replies, asking them to use the talk page instead as a means of communication. I also made sure to answer all the arguments raised on talk despite being at work, see Talk:Eastern Anatolia Region#Formatted as an attack article + unneeded and irrelevant information included. This user doesn't succeed in providing valid arguments for their edits, so they just resort to reporting an opposing user.

Regarding Lahmacun article, Zenzyyx edit wars and cast doubt on a reliable source by violating MOS:CLAIM, [116], [117].

If anything, zenzyyx would be lucky if this 10,000+ essay doesn't get boomeranged, as they completely lack self-awarness of their own actions, specifically WP:DIS, WP:EDITWAR, WP:POV.

p.s. Most of my edits on Wikipedia are reverts of poorly justified / disruptive edits (as seen by the examples you brought up). Regarding Cilicia article, if you had any content disagreements with me, why is that the first time I'm hearing about it is here in ANI? Just more of a proof of your battleground mentality and intimidation threats to drag content issues to ANI when someone disagrees with you. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• I did not argue nor even suggest that 2v1 meant consensus. Anyone is free to read this edit. [118]

• I had already explained the content removal both in the talk page and here. You were reported here because of your edit warring and disruptive editing in many articles.

• It looks like you've completely ignored what I've stated above. I did not cast doubt on the source, please read that section again.

• I am not the only one who has disagreed with your POV-pushing edits (replacing Anatolia with Levant). Many users have (which I've linked just some examples above). This is just one out of many articles highlighting your disruptive editing and edit warring. zenzyyx^{talk 17:41, 10 August 2022 (UTC)}

Please be more concise at ANI, this is a clusterfuck and way too long for any uninvolved editor to discern the actual point of it. PRAXIDICAE🌈 17:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

1) I mean what are you trying to even say? That you didn't have consensus for blanking chunks of sourced valid content, and the discussion is still ongoing? And that you're now reporting one of the users opposing to you?

2) Nope, even others have to correct after your POV mess, see edit by Schazjmd [119]

3)Who are these "many users" you keep referencing? And why none opened a talk discussion at the very least about these supposed ANI worhty diffs of mine from that article? Why do you keep dragging content here? Especially when there is an ongoing discussion where you still haven't shown a valid reason for blanking entire sections and edit-warring over it. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

1) No, please read what I wrote again.

2) How was that a POV mess? I made the wording more neutral.[120] It looks like Schazjmd has made it even more neutral, this is great.

3) I had already referenced the edits of said users. Feel free to check them. This is the first time I've made an ANI report, what do you mean by "Why do you keep dragging content here?" ? Once more, I've explained my reasons above for removing these sections. I don't think you've read them. zenzyyx^{talk 18:03, 10 August 2022 (UTC)}

First of all, learn how to WP:INDENT. Secondly, this comment alone shows your complete lack of understanding of NPOV, as also evident by your editing pattern;

How was that a POV mess? I made the wording more neutral.[294] It looks like Schazjmd has made it even more neutral, this is great.

Apparently, according to you, casting doubt on WP:RS and violating MOS:CLAIM, [121], then edit-warring over your own disruptive edit [122], means "more neutral". I rest my case. Thanks to Schazjmd correcting after you, the section looks good now [123]. But in your essay report, you somehow brought this article against me as evidence of something?

Regarding the core dispute I had with this user, Eastern Anatolia Region, uninvolved users can easily take a look at the article history and see who's edit-warring [124]. And you still have no consensus to remove valid and sourced content that you tried to remove many times, with subpar talk arguments all of which have been answered. I think I'm done engaging with your essay clusterfuck "report". ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:22, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, I had failed to indent most of my comments. This has been fixed now.

Neither WP:MOS nor WP:CLAIM has been violated by myself in the Lahmacun article. I had simply reworded the section to make it more neutral;[125] [126] you reverted said attempts to NPOV the section.[127]

Uninvolved users can also feel free to read my explanations above for removing the content in the Eastern Anatolia Region article, and the explanations in the article's talk page. Do not act like I'm the one edit warring; I have avoided doing so two times, by firstly creating another talk topic on the article's talk page,[128] and also by posting this here after edit warring on the opposite side continued. zenzyyx^{talk 18:35, 10 August 2022 (UTC)}

User:zenzyyx requested that I provide a third opinion. I have looked at this report, but it is Too Long, Didn't Read. What I can tell is that User:zenzyyx is unhappy about the edits made by User:ZaniGiovanni. Many of us are unhappy about something. I don't intend to finish reading this overly long report. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:00, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Robert, thanks for letting us know that you cannot provide a 3o. I do not believe it is "overly" long, I have stated what needs to be stated in order for there to be no misunderstandings and to not be accused of leaving details out. I will now, of course, wait for admins to review this and decide what to do. Thanks again. zenzyyx_talk 20:08, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

It is absolutely, definitely, overlong. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• Note I have fully protected Eastern Anatolia Region for a week before someone, most likely the OP, gets themselves blocked for edit-warring. Black Kite (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

@Zenzyyx: When you respond to someone, you are supposed to add an indent to your comment to make it clear who you are replying to (see here). –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 06:23, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, just fixed this. zenzyyx (talk) 09:30, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I am not an admin but as an uninvolved editor I just looked at the Eastern Anatolia Region page which led me to the Geographical regions of Turkey page which says "Regions" as defined in this context are merely for geographic, demographic, and economic purposes, and do not refer to an administrative division. As such it is perfectly appropriate to have a history section on these pages. The way to improve any POV issues that you see with the section is to improve the article with information about the other groups not remove the content that is already there.Gusfriend (talk) 03:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello Gusfriend. These articles are indeed related to administrative divisions formed in 1941, per First Geography Congress, Turkey and It even says so in the Geographical regions of Turkey article, and I quote "The geographical regions of Turkey comprise seven regions (Turkish: bölge) which were originally defined at the country's First Geography Congress in 1941". zenzyyx (talk) 09:30, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Gusfriend, the point of @Zenzyyx is not the status of the region here, Zenzyyx just tells that formation of these regions are irrelevant to the Armenians. BerkBerk⁶⁸ 18:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

References

• zenzyyx, I tried to read through this, but damn. The way you over-explain and don't use diffs, plus pass your report with things that aren't directly relevant to the problem, it makes it impossible to tell exactly what the problem is. Please learn to be concise in your reports and only add what is absolutely necessary to understand the problem, with diffs for each problem, after the very short explanation of each problem. As for this mess, I'm not stepping in it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:10, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Hello. I've removed large parts of the report in order to make it more concise. Diffs are also utilized. Thanks. zenzyyx (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Zenzyyx I recommend that you withdraw this complaint against ZaniGiovanni, which appears to have little foundation. I'm sure you know what WP:BOOMERANG is, and you could be the one who ends up with a block if you are not careful. Deb (talk) 18:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I don't believe that the complaint has "little foundation". I have provided 3 solid examples of where this user has been seen to disruptively edit/edit war, despite including irrelevant/wrong information. Nevertheless, I will consider your advice, and thank you for it. zenzyyx (talk) 20:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

If you take a look at some incidents in the archives of ANI, you'll see that, unless the matter is clear-cut (which it isn't), three examples is nowhere near enough. If you withdraw now, you'll thank me later in your Wikipedia career. Deb (talk) 07:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@Deb I stopped engaging with this report after seeing how subpar it is and the incompetence of OP in the followup comments. And this passive-aggressive stubborn comment above of Zenzyyx still not acknowledging that this report is subpar at best and lacks foundation explains some of the bad faith / WP:CIR I've encountered from zenzyyx. From "many articles" to actually showing a whopping three, two of which it's them doing the edits, which are either repeated MOS:CLAIM violation of WP:RS, see Lahmacun: [129], [130], [131], or literally blanking sourced valid content, and then edit-warring over their own edits and directly contradicting sources in the talk page, see Eastern Anatolia region: [132], [133], [134], [135], [136]; . The other article, Cilicia, my diff is from May (I haven't even edited the article since May), and in hindsight while I believe adding "northwestern Levant" instead of replacing would've been better, still even that gets reverted by zenzyyx [137], and in ANI of all places is the first venue I'm hearing from zenzyyx regarding that edit from May, not in the talk page or my talk like a good faith editor would first do.

If zenzyyx further argues that this report somehow didn't lack foundation, I believe a WP:BOOMERANG would be appropriate for the sheer incompetence, bad faith and stubbornness of this user. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Passive aggressive? How so? Also, yes, I did provide three detailed examples. The report is already long, do you expect me to include more occasions when one can simply see your talk page for concerns pertaining to your disruptive editing? You keep stating that the information I had removed in the Eastern Anatolia Region article is sourced. Yes, it is, but it's *irrelevant* to said article, and I explained why. Also, why do you think that adding that a person claims something (which is also controversial), is a violation of MOS:CLAIM and WP:RS? Why bother adding northwestern Levant next to southern Anatolia? It's just unnecessary and contributes to the cluster of the article. Please make sense. zenzyyx (talk) 21:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, yes, I did provide three examples. The report is already long, do you expect me to include more occasions when one can simply see your talk page for concerns pertaining to your disruptive editing?

I'm sorry but you're just not making sense at this point. What a weird, incompetent comment to say when your unfounded report gets exposed for what it is. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Did you just repeat what I said and regurgitate false information once again? How has the report been exposed? zenzyyx (talk) 22:18, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

You may consider taking the advice from Deb before it's too late. You can also ignore this message, of course. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 22:34, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I had already responded to said advice. zenzyyx (talk) 22:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Grant Hodnett

On the article, an IP removed content about the subject being punished for a crime, making a legal threat in the edit summary. Hey man im josh reverted it and warned the IP about making legal threats. A different IP address comes along and removes the content in question. This happens three times, with the IP making the same edit summary all throughout: "I purposely made changes to the page as the recent article and updates added are not only damaging but false on this individual. It should be allowed to be updated by anyone else." I reverted the edits twice, and in my edit summary of my second revert, I asked them if they have any evidence that the information is libelous. Gummycow made a revert warned the IP about edit warning. I'm reluctant to revert again, so I would like an admin to deal with this editor. SunilNevlaFan✨ 20:01, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Hey @SunilNevlaFan, I requested page protection after seeing this ping. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:05, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh: Thank you for that. SunilNevlaFan✨ 20:09, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

That's obvious block evasion. IP range is blocked for 6 months, and page is semi-protected for another year. That should stop it for a little while, but the next protection should probably just be indefinite. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:38, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

IP falsely closing deletion discussions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

An IP who goes by 100.38.88.154 is closing deletion discussions under the fake username "MagicMile". View their contributions to see diffs. Likely a sockpuppet; they put a baseball player's article in place of a userpage so they're likely in that realm of editors, although I had someone else in mind. —VersaceSpace 🌃 00:31, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, no, that's not on. I've blocked and finished reverting the afds. —Cryptic 00:49, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Cryptic. Some editors have been arguing that AFDs should be semi-protected. The usual problems with IPs and AFDs are sockpuppetry and UPE. This sort of vandalism is a different problem. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:00, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The problem is, IPs are usually helpful in AFDs. Once in a while we will semiprotect a single AFD, ie: there are a dozen meat-puppets showing up due to a thread on Reddit, etc. The rest of the time, I've found IPs input to be about as useful as registered users. So in other words, a mix of quality. You can always ask for semi on an AFD, I don't think the threshold is that high for most admin. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:39, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP User

Hello. I am usually almost always logged in to my Wikipedia account, but I accidentally logged out recently. When I was logged out, I saw that I had a message. The message stated that my IP address was doing disruptive edits to Wikipedia, and soon it will be blocked. That IP address was once mine, but as Ip addresses move, it is not mine already It is now being used by the different person, and I am not the person who is making the diruptive edits. Please check this out. —The Space Enthusiast (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it too much. As a registered user, you won't be affected by a block applied to your IP, except in very rare cases. In the unlikely event that this does happen, you can appeal the block. Zudo ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:00, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

^^^This. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:35, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

If you're unlucky enough to be caught in a hardblock (as mentioned by Zudo), you may be unable to edit anywhere obvious in Wikipedia and thus to appeal using the techniques described in GAPB (it's happened to me, twice). In such a case, go through WP:UTRS. Narky Blert (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

User:PrisonerB

PrisonerB has been making a habit to follow me to obscure pages and edit in opposition to me. The editor interaction tool shows, besides his talk page, I have never once edited a page after PrisonerB besides a WikiProject as a result of me closing an RFC requested at WP:CR. And I am not claiming that an edit to Israel is hounding. And sure, the editing to Operation Breaking Dawn can be based off the news, and not it being just the last edit in my contributions list. That works for the I read the news and follow my watchlist excuse. But List of largest mosques, fifteen minutes after I edit to revert me. The Washington Institute for Near East Policy an hour after my edit to revert me, a move review (and claiming to not be involved, shortly after reaching 500 edits). Beyond the fact that they are clearly hounding me, they are also editing tendentiously. In this edit they remove one source on pro-Israel, and then in this edit they pretend that the idea that it is pro-Israel only comes from one other source. This is bad faith editing, and along with the hounding it should not be permitted. nableezy - 14:48, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I edited articles around Al-Aqsa Mosque after the advertised move review. I also edited articles related and mentioned in Operation Breaking Dawn that was in the news. This is not hounding. In The Washington Institute for Near East Policy I removed a label from the first sentence of the lead, as did User:Zekelayla, due to MOS:LABEL. The pro-Israel stance is still discussed in the next paragraph. In this edit I pretended nothing, I corrected a very vague attribution of "The institute was described in 2008..." to "John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt in their The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy book describe..." which is the specific 2008 book used for the statement. Vague attributions should be corrected according to MOS:AWW. PrisonerB (talk) 14:57, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I very clearly said Breaking Dawn is not HOUNDING. Where was the move review "advertised"? Doesnt seem advertised anywhere on-wiki. How did you find your way to List of largest mosques? How did you find your way to WINEP? nableezy - 15:00, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Move reviews are advertised, I participated in the June one too on Indus Valley civilisation including earlier today. WINEP was discussed in one of the Palestine or Israel crisis articles, do not remember when. The largest mosque articles was one of the article affected by the July move review on Al Aqsa. PrisonerB (talk) 15:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Bs, through and through, I dont remember. No, you very clearly have been hounding my contributions, and at this point Id like a one-way interaction ban for it to stop. nableezy - 15:27, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• Nableezy is making baseless claims. More interesting, from Nableezy's talk page there is a discussion of a sockpuppeting report against PrisonerB by Nableezy from August 3. That filing was baseless. Eight days later we have a very weak report on ANI. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 15:36, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The fact that a CU was run makes it emphatically not baseless. Nothing in the above is baseless, and that handwaving in defense of an ally is one of the problems with this topic area. Your past warning should have given you a course correction in that regard, but alas. nableezy - 15:55, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Your report was rejected. Eight days later, you report the same editor to a different board? Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 16:00, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Eight days later their hounding increased in intensity and tendentiousness. The SPI has nothing to do with this report, please stop distracting from the issue. nableezy - 16:06, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Note: Contrary to the above statement by חוקרת the mentioned SPI filing was not baseless and might be re-evaluated if the further evidences appear. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• User:Nableezy just attacked PrisonerB on his talk page now: "Was found unrelated, but personally still have 0 doubt its Icewhiz.". Using it to refer to PrisonerB, and saying they are a sockpuppet despite the rejected report. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 16:23, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I remain convinced this is Icewhiz, but as I cannot prove it conclusively yet that is not something I will be saying outside of my talk page when asked my thoughts. That still has nothing to do with this. nableezy - 16:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

You just repeated your attack without evidence after it was rejected. This is casting aspersions. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 16:58, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Ok, to avoid being accused of casting aspersions, along with the evidence in the SPI, here is some additional evidence for why I remain convinced:

• alongside several IW socks, (Free1Soul, Hippeus, Geshem Bracha, 11Fox11)
• alongside several IW socks, (Free1Soul, Geshem Bracha) [also a Yaniv sock SoaringLL, though I think the English proficiency here is more IW than Yaniv]

Both of those were a handful of IW socks that got to 500 edits and overran a discussion with their socks to achieve their favored position. It boggles the mind how a user that new even finds the CFD page. But Id like to avoid things irrelevant to ANI please. So maybe keep this focused on-topic? nableezy - 18:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think anyone experienced on Wikipedia can look at this user's first 500 edits, almost all of which are reverts or "welcome to Wikipedia" messages and think, yep, this is a straight-and-narrow, everyday, totally here user just going about the business of encyclopedia building. I don't think ... Iskandar323 (talk) 17:02, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Backing %100 remark by Nableezy. I’m confident that the reported account is a sock-puppet of the banned user Icewhiz - per my analyses here (now this is correct link). The behavioural evidence of the mentioned account should be looked at again, including the ongoing hounding of Nableezy. - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:00, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

To add to my above-noted evidence, please take a look at this blocked sock-puppet of Icewhiz named Free1Soul and notice the user's page info box -->[138]

Now compare it with the PrisonerB users page -->[139]

Both bear the identical template. Icewhiz inserts random templates in most user pages of his sock puppet accounts - examples below:

• WikiProject Children's literature
• WikiProject Poland
• Languages

That was his routine, decorating the sock puppet user page with a single template shortly after creation. (another give exposed, but what can you do?) - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:50, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• No comment about this particular instance, but all a checkuser finding of "unrelated" means is that there is no technical evidence supporting the claim of socking, and that behavioral evidence will have to be used instead. Lack of technical evidence of socking is not technical evidence of lack of socking. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 16:54, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• The largest mosque, WINEP and move review edits subsequent to Nableezy seem difficult to explain as random edits. I think I might be on subject's watch list as well, tbh. Selfstudier (talk) 17:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• No merit to Nableezy's hounding complaint here, just common Middle East topics. Ignoring Nableezy's snarky userbox discussed above, Nableezy tripled down with a heinous personal attack of PrisonerB being an Icewhiz sockpuppet knowing full well their own previous report was turned down. Earlier this year the allegation of a different user against User:Drsmoo, of colluding Icewhiz, was actioned with a block by User:El C and musings of a ban. Nableezy was quick to jump today demanding user:IZAK strike an allegation of POVWARRIORS, saying a user is Icewhiz is much worse. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 19:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  In May an attack page by Nableezy against User:Levivich was deleted. In 2021, Nableezy was given a final warning for this kind of behaviour. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:02, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Um, all of those things happened before you even registered this account. Huh. Another account just clearing the 500 edit threshold and jumping in to a dispute they had not been notified or pinged to in any way. Huh. And Im not claiming PrisonerB is Icewhiz on any talk page, I said so in SPI and my own talk page (and here when that as raised). Can some person not involved in the ARBPIA topic comment on this? If youre allowed to tendentiously hound editors across topics to obscure pages Id like to know that. nableezy - 20:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Now you are accusing me of something? I watch ANI, spent about 10 minutes searching ANI threads and I probably missed a few, as I only skimmed over the results. I have seen PrisonerB around, and I've seen your tendentious editing against consensus at Operation Breaking Dawn, an article I started. Your heinous personal attacks should receive tender love and care by an admin. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:24, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I havent made a single personal attack, you not liking that I provided evidence that an editor is a sock of a banned user is not a personal attack. And, again, I am not repeating that claim unless somebody asks me about it. Im not the one that brought Icewhiz up here. But yes, this needs admin attention, and stopping such rambling misdirection would be useful as well. There was also no "attack page", making that another in a series of bullshit claims thrown up in defense of an allied editor. nableezy - 20:42, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• Nableezy just said I was lying. Guess this is what happens when you disagree with them. Admin tender love and care please. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:44, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

You just said that every single person was opposed to something when one other person made the edit. Interestingly, an Icewhiz sock also claimed heinous personal attacks. Huh. That Wikieditor thread you linked to had a handful of Icewhiz socks agitating for a ban against me there too. Huh. nableezy - 20:49, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Attack, attack, attack. That person compromised with you despite saying they disagreed with you. The count is 5 editors against Nableezy, one neutral, and one compromising to your version despite saying they "personally believe that the previous version was more accurate". ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Please stop. --JBL (talk) 00:22, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, now I feel like a fool. [H]einous personal attack is rather unique, albeit not quite all-be-it or whatever the fuck. El_C 11:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Don’t. The socking operation of Icewhiz's little bunch is massive and getting more sophisticated due to the use of technology and gained experience. To those who don't know what all-be-it is all about - that how sock puppet of Icewhiz named Eostrix (who almost gained an admin status) was exposed on other Website. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:21, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. 13 hits. No other Icewhiz sox in there, though curiously there's a significant correlation between using that phrase and getting indeffed. Also found at least one other editor with an affinity for Israel using it. Are Israelis more likely to say "heinous", El_C? FWIW, Lilach has already been checked at least once (in the context of a mistaken block), but I don't know if that check—which was against a sockmaster in the San Fransisco Bay Area—would have turned up Icewhizzy things. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 16:12, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

No, Tamzin, to the best of my experience, that is not a thing. Crucially, I'm not sure how accurate CU WP:CHECKs are for IW socks. As far as I can recall from the IW lore, of which I am far from an expert, they have defeated these on multiple occasions with multiple accounts. Though it's possible I'm mis-recollecting, I think that's the reason why related SPIs feature behavioural evidence well over and above any technical checks. HTH. El_C 16:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I noticed that when I went looking, too. Use of that phrase is a very good predictor (though not quite perfect) for getting indeffed. Curious. GoldenRing (talk) 16:34, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: Nableezy is just trying to deflect from their attack. I have no connection to that orc, and falsely calling people socks after being proven wrong is heinous. Heinous is a fairly common word, used in 2,327 discussions on Wikipedia and 12,677 times on all Wikipedia. As for why I was saying "heinous", I was thinking of "תקיפה שפלה", and this is one of the ways to translate. The other choice of word would be "vile". ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 18:19, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Nableezy is actually complaining of being hounded, the deflections came from elsewhere. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

ding ding ding. Exactly like the Wikieditor thread linked above. Its like I cant make a report on a straightforward behavioral issue without a sea of 500+a handful of edits editors flooding ANI with off-topic bullshit. I would still like the hounding to be addressed, and I am still asking for a one-way interaction ban for it to be made to stop. nableezy - 20:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I was blocked once for a false accusation like the ones you are making. The hounding claim is bullshit. The victim here is PrisonerB, who you are casting aspersions on around the project, after your own report was turned down. You then decided to attack me in this thread. PrisonerB should be protected from you by a one-way interaction ban forbidding you to interact with them. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:11, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

How is it bullshit? How am I casting aspersions? I am not repeatedly raising any socking claim anywhere (and no, that was not "disproven"). How is [this not hounding? How did PrisonerB find his way to the List of largest mosques? To the move review? To WINEP? He did the same thing in the Category for discussion page, edited related discussions right before jumping in to that one to give the appearance of editing a set of discussions. You know how many categories for discussion he has participated in since? None. There is nothing "bullshit" about the hounding accusation, it is clear, and I challenge anybody to give a good faith explanation for how he continues to follow me around to obscure articles and discussions. This game in which an editor just reflexively backs up an ally without even a fig leaf's pretense as to a lack of partisanship should honestly bring sanctions. But until that glorious day, explain how the hounding claim is bullshit. Or better yet, dont. Everybody knows how you feel here already, a feeling of exactly 0 import. nableezy - 20:20, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

The mosque article had attention from June, around the contentious move, On 1 June, User:Tombah edited it and you, Nableezy, made your first edit ever to the article 49 minutes later. You then left the article alone until 3 August, when Tombah made another edit which you immediately modified, placing Jerusalem in Palestine, which is very contentious because it is not the controlled or internationally recognized reality. Somehow, two minutes after you, Iskandar323 made three edits, their first edits ever to the article, and then twenty minutes later PrisonerB made an edit. So how did Iskander323 and PrisonerB find their way to the article? I would assume it was discussed in another article, perhaps the Al Aqsa one, which made many editors head there. I do not see any wrongdoing by PrisonerB, but your hounding of Tombah is obvious. How did you find that article on 1 June right after Tombah edited? You should be one-way interaction banned from both Tombah and PrisonerB. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Have they appointed you as their representative? Selfstudier (talk) 21:15, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

You understand the way that tool works right? All the bright blue ones under my name are articles I edited first. There are a handful of articles Tombah, somebody who I think is generally a very fine editor and often times dont even review their edits when they appear in my watchlist because I assume they will be solid and would never need to check their contributions to follow them around, has edited prior to me. Please, if youd like to accuse me of hounding Tombah, then do it in another section. This one was about a dispute with PrisonerB, and all the diversions in the world are not changing the obvious to any' good faith editor hounding by PrisonerB. And I still would like to see some uninvolved commentary on that. nableezy - 21:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Joseph A. Spadaro

• Joseph A. Spadaro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I had a conflict with Joseph A. Spadaro over Alvin Bragg's article in late July, when I objected to negative information added to the biography. He engaged in WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on the talk page, and you can see that Valereee and Cullen328 called him out for it on his talk page. He hadn't logged in since then, but has returned to spam BLP talk pages [140][141][142][143], and revert my removal of it while not responding to my talk page message. I would block him, but I consider myself WP:INVOLVED from the conflict of two weeks ago. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:51, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment by Anachronist

User:Joseph A. Spadaro is continuing to use article talk pages as a platform to make snarky comments about bias and editor motivations in spite of being asked repeatedly to stop doing so. Often he posts nearly the same sarcastic comments preceded by phrasing about "improving the article", but fails to suggest any specific improvement or cite any sources.

Examples:

• Unsourced political statements on Talk:Joe Biden couched in terms of "improving the article" without really suggesting anything concrete.
• Three nearly identically-worded sarcastic comments[144][145][146] on Talk:Merrick Garland, Talk:Christopher A. Wray, and Talk:James Comey, respectively, clearly intending to provoke a reaction (and all reverted).
• A long-ish rant stating various conservative conspiracy-theory talking points on Talk:FBI search of Mar-a-Lago.
• Sarcastic comment about "pretending to be neutral" on Talk:FBI search of Mar-a-Lago.
• Personal commentary about potential new material on a search warrant on Talk:FBI search of Mar-a-Lago.
• After above edit was reverted reposted the same comment preceded by "improving the article" phrasing while remaining vague on the purported improvements.
• Reposting the same comments[147][148] on Talk:Joe Biden and Talk:Merrick Garland after being reverted and warned.

Notices from five different editors can be found on User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro#Not a forum. I would be considered WP:INVOLVED so I leave it up to other admins to decide on what action to take, if any. ~Anachronist (talk) 06:33, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

To add to the pattern: JAS posted at Talk:Kathy Boudin to celebrate her death in May. He tried to pass it off as an actual suggestion, but the article already had already been changed to discuss her death. He reverted a NOTFORUM removal and re-inserted "good riddance" after it was removed from the section heading. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:35, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

• endorse block Andre🚐 03:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Spadaro is trolling at this point and it needs to be stopped, by a block if necessary. Cullen328 (talk) 04:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Agree that this is blatant trolling, although not sure we're in indef territory. The diffs presented would seem at the very least to justify TBANs from American politics and gender. (The latter could be done as a DS action; no awareness for the former till I notified him just now, though, so would have to be a community restriction.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 06:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
  • @Tamzin: JAS has quite a history of DS alerts, including two American Politics ones before yours, 2015-06-27 and 2020-05-13. OK, they were the post-1932 version, but still: can't plead unawareness. Favonian (talk) 15:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
    • @Favonian: Those alerts are both stale under WP:AWARE's 12-month rule. That clause of AC/DS is probably the single most unreasonable provision of any policy, but can't IAR it because ArbCom will presumably void any sanction issued in violation of it. (One could get pedantic and argue that WP:AWARE never explicitly says you can't sanction for pre-awareness conduct, but I doubt that would fly.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 15:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• I've got a good idea, why don't we whitewash Donald Trump and show everyone what a nice person he is and how he's hardly ever been racist or given unwanted sexual advances to anyone really .... all with RS like Fox News and Infowars of course .... yeah, no. I think the discretionary sanctions tag is a good first step, and if he responds with more sarcasm, block 'em. I probably shouldn't take any action myself as while I'm fairly neutral on Biden and the Democract Party generally (thinking Biden is broadly equivalent to soft conservatives like David Cameron and Phillip Hammond), I do have strong views on Trump (as if you hadn't noticed) so don't want to be accused of bias. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support some kind of block. I think we're not so dumb that we can't see what's happening with these soapboxy posts that have only a tangential claim to being suggestions for article improvement. I wouldn't support any action if he had changed behavior after multiple warnings. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:35, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse block This kind of behavior is unacceptable from anyone. He's been around long enough to be expected to be aware of community standards of civility, BLP, use of talk pages, policies against polemical rants, etc. etc. This kind of behavior is what makes areas of Wikipedia a toxic area to work, and we wouldn't allow it from a random new user, and we DEFINITELY shouldn't allow it from someone who should know better. --Jayron32 12:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Talkpage block from American political BLPs - AFAIK, he isn't vandalising the pages themselves, but merely making 'hallow' comments on the talkpages. GoodDay (talk) 12:51, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  I've seen this done before but it's a terrible idea. Editors are supposed to be able to discuss their edits when necessary, and the article talk page is the place to do it when it's a content issue. It's part of the collaborative editing environment. Noticeboards can be useful to gain wider attention and for centralised discussion on something affecting multiple articles and user talk pages for behavioural concerns and for quick minor discussions on content issues or to gain attention especially for new editors but there is no substitute for discussing on article talk pages when necessary. If an editor lacks the ability to constructively use talk pages, then they aren't welcome here or in whatever article who's talk pages they can't be trusted to use. They can look for something which isn't based on collaborative editing, or learn how to use talk page, their choice. Nil Einne (talk) 13:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support block This diff suggests NOTHERE, to me at least. The editor's block log also suggests a whole long (14 year) history of the same, including a previous indef for BLP issues, harassing editors, getting his TPA revoked for the same. 14 years of on and off disruption to the project is enough. I would support indef, this editor appears to have been given second chances before, but I would also support anything up to an indef as well, such as TBANS, etc. FrederalBacon (talk) 14:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Reinstate indef block Jclemens blocked Joseph A. Spadaro indefinitely in 2009 for BLP violations and only unblocked when "User agreed to follow a more narrow BLP interpretation than he previously held" (discussion here). As these BLP violations are continuing 13 years later, with blatant trolling thrown in to boot, the original indef block should be reinstated. -- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:21, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  Ergh. That's the closest thing to an WP:INVOLVED block I ever did as an admin. I think it was right, but I probably shouldn't have been the one to do it, IIRC. I have had no further interaction with this user since. It's been almost 10 years since I handed in my bit, and over a dozen since this block. That's a lot of water under a bridge, so as a previously blocking admin who is no longer an admin, I am neutral on the whole idea. Jclemens (talk) 01:24, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

• He’s had a second chance and blown it. Block indef and move on. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:58, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  This is actually a third chance. He was indeffed in 2008 for harassment, and released due to seems to understand reason for block and is willing to improve and then the second block in 2009 and unblock in 2010 for the BLP vios. I'm revising my own comment, owing to this being the editor's third chance, absolutely indef. FrederalBacon (talk) 19:02, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  A third chance?? Oh, well... -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 06:22, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

• Indef It's nothing more than trolling for a reaction. We would block a new editor for this, and it's even less acceptable from an experienced one. Frankly, I would have indeffed him myself if I'd seen this at the time. Black Kite (talk) 23:50, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Indeff'd

Ten minutes after making this comment, the editor was notified of this discussion and stopped editing. I've indeffed to get this editor's attention. The discussion of whether the block should be adjusted should continue above. Valereee (talk) 17:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

User:JayCoop

Someone needs to take a look at the recent undiscussed article moves this user has made. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

They seem to not like use of dates in parenthesis after page names. It would be good if someone could rollback the changes. Gusfriend (talk) 12:34, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• I'm guessing this would also be against global consensus, but I'm not a MOS expert. [149]. I left a note on their page making it clear they need to stop moving and come here and start communicating. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I believed these were uncontroversial moves aimed toward making the article titles more concise. I wasn't under any impression that there was an established consensus on declaration of war article titles. However, the moves were in line with a similar consensus established with election articles (e.g. moving United States presidential election, 2012 to 2012 United States presidential election). Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 19:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

When it comes to regular events the year is place at the start of the page name but for irregular events the year is in parenthesis at the end. There are a couple of ways of thinking about it. (1) The year acts to differentiate between the different events in the same way that you have Sean Smith (cornerback) and Sean Smith (diplomat) (and more at Sean Smith (disambiguation)). (2) Because the presidential election happens regularly if you were talking about it then you would (almost) always use the year to describe elections in the past but if you were to talk about a declaration of war or something like the Treaty of Rouen in everyday conversation you would generally just use the name without the year. Gusfriend (talk) 20:57, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

What I don't understand is how this rises to be a discussion to be had on the ANI and not on my talk page. It seems excessive and contrary to what is stated at the top of this page. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 21:17, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@JayCoop multiple editors tried to discuss it with you on your own talk page hours ago and you continued to edit without responding. PRAXIDICAE🌈 21:20, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@Praxidicae: You can look at my edit log. My most recent move was done at 04:06 PDT. This discussion you speak of didn't start until 04:40 PDT, by which time I had already gone to bed, so I did not continue editing without responding. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 21:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

If you look at WP:NCELECT it has the specific MOS for elections and referendums which begins with the year. But in WP:MILNAME says that If disambiguation is needed, the year may be added in parentheses and Wikipedia:Disambiguation mentions Parenthetical disambiguation, i.e. adding a disambiguating term in parentheses after the ambiguous name: Wikipedia's standard disambiguation technique when none of the other solutions lead to an optimal article title. In particular, from my perspective, none of your moves were to names that they are commonly known by so parenthetical disamb via year would be the way to go. Gusfriend (talk) 21:50, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, I stand corrected then. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 23:06, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Will you be reverting the changes that you made? Gusfriend (talk) 01:47, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I will have to see which ones weren't. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 02:05, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit: I might leave that to someone else to do because I have been instructed not to move anything for the duration of this discussion. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 02:07, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Long username  ☀DefenderTienMinh☽  (talk) 14:58, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@KhanhCN Defender1st Minh: Username reports go to WP:UAA. However, there is nothing in the username policy forbidding long usernames. Even extremely lengthy usernames (and I wouldn't call this extremely lengthy) are highly discouraged but ... not so inappropriate on their own as to require action. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 15:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

More's the pity.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:12, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Good luck remembering that one next time they want to log in. I wonder if their password is 'bob' or something Tony Fox (arf!) 17:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Typically, users with names like this either do nothing, so it's moot, or do lots of other things that warrant a block, ie: vandalism. The name itself is annoying but not against policy, that I can tell. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  By the way, you are still required to notify the user when you report them at ANI (but not at UAA). I did it for you, just keep it in mind that you need to use the template at the top of this page next time you report someone, please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  though, to be fair, the traditional place to put such notifications is the talk page, not the user page ;) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Somebody was making a test edit or test account. They didn't cause any disruption. Let's move on. Jehochman ^Talk 17:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:David Eppstein prejudiced comments and demeaning attitude requires attention

Please relay your attention to these exchanges:

Talk:Golden_Ratio

Editor adding junk content to 177 (number)

Talk:177 (number)

User talk:Radlrb#Hendecagon

I became very frustrated with David Eppstein's way of making his points and warring on my edits. For certain, the Hendecagon issue was OR, and I was mistaken to believe I had seen that tessellation present, and was looking for a reference, which I did not find. However, the way in which he assumes I am inexperienced, and willing to just add cruft, as is his term, is insulting.

For the number 177 - my main concern is his abusive extension, yet again, of insinuating I, as an editor, add junk. @Gumshoe2 agreed with me, by saying that "Well, for what it's worth, I largely agree with Radlrb that David Eppstein can be rather condescending and rude in disagreement, sometimes not very nice to interact with as a fellow editor and especially not as an admin."

For the talk on the Golden ratio, he asks, after I explain to him that there are quotes on the book which directly reference a specific quote by Debussy - he asks, with a clearly condescending tone, "Which person in which page of which book analyzed this specific quote as referring to the golden ratio?" After I list them (one which I already had mentioned but he didn't even recognize, or care to see and check), he does not mention the citations at all, except for one, on a matter of a golden spiral not being the spiral purported to be presented, which instead is a logarithmic spiral. Yet, his point was, from the onset, that it cannot be included since there are no apparent sources that explicitly explain this quote, or attribute it meaning. The original author of the thread, in fact gave one place where it is discussed, in a book, before I provided the aforementioned 2 examples. Yet, he ignores the three examples altogether, and since he cannot accept defeat or an inclusion of this quote, he picks an issue on it being not admissible because "... six of the ten lines of the music section (for my browser width) are already devoted to Debussy, rather out of proportion. Expansion of this material seems likely to cause greater issues with balance." Clearly, he is diverging from the very original concerning quote, and shows a biased opinion toward the inclusion of said quote. It's a quote that should be incorporated, as 3 editors agreed on it. He preceded this with: "An accurate description would be "some golden-ratio-loving scholars have picked at vague patterns in Debussy's compositions and even vaguer wording in quotes from Debussy in an attempt to find the golden ratio in his works. The results have been inconclusive." I don't think I need to express how rude this comment is, and as a member of the spiritual and scientific community, I find this deeply disrespectful, and pushes me away from editing here. This is prejudice, and it feels no different in depth than prejudice I have experienced, for example, for being Latino, here in the US. So I have experience feeling abjections of this sort before, and it is damming and damaging. And I don't believe David Eppstein is sensitive to this, which is why I am bringing this to your attention.

He has a continuing history of demeaning edits on the history tabs of articles, by saying "removing cruft" or "junk," and I can tell you, that if another editor sees this, and is inexperienced, they will not want to keep editing, because they know that if they try to incorporate points they genuinely believe are worthwhile, they won't continue to do so if the outcome is an outright battle with David.

So, I recommend at least that there is a serious discussion with him regarding the matter, because it is really unhealthy for the community, and hurts editors directly. Simply because he is a good contributor here, should not give him a free card to be demeaning.

My responses were not necessarily peaceful either, but they are defensive in nature. Defensive in the same sense for any injustice that can be done but is really almost heard by nobody. I can just ignore it, but then I realize that others are also affected by him. Different times I tried to make peace, especially in the comments section of Talk:177 (number), however he did not respond. So, I believe he just simply does not care about his antics and how they affect others, nor to make amends when they do arise.

Thank you. Radlrb (talk) 21:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

He didn't insinuate you were adding junk, he was pretty explicit about it. And, frankly, it's correct: "177 is the sum of the three largest prime factors of the order of the monster group" is meaningless numerology of the worst kind; it has no business being anywhere near an encyclopedia, for multiple obvious reasons. --JBL (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

You do not touch at all on the matter at hand. Especially on the other comments he made, so your input is not very valuable. You condone his insults? Radlrb (talk) 21:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

[triple edit conflict] Undoing edits that were not improvements, and hurting your feelings because you worked hard on those edits and that work went for nothing, is not incivility. Pointing you to our standards for reliable sourcing using the standard template for doing so is not incivility. Asking for sources for something, and then moving on to other aspects of a discussion because those sources were provided, is not incivility. Treating you like all other editors, rather than imagining that membership in a minority community whose membership I didn't even know about until now would make your sensitivities unusually delicate, is not incivility. Your recent edits, on the other hand... diff diff diff. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Ignoring my comments, and glossing over, is not good editing practice. Calling my edits junk, is not good editing practice. Being relentless on a point that other editors want to include, which is cited, but then you meander around because of your opinionated viewpoints, is not good editing practice. Noticing that I am contributing meaningful content (30,000) words, and then bashing me, is not good community editing behavior. The spiritual and religious community is not a minor community. You ignoring my attempt to make amends, is not good community editing practice. Being biased and not including a quote used by other authors that can improve the article, is not good editing practice. The way you assumed that I "looked somewhere" for an image of the hendecagonal tessellation that I by mistake thought existed, and just being rude about it, is not good editing practice. At least, you definitely did not make me feel welcomed when I was starting to edit here. Don't hide it, you know you were being rude and bland. Radlrb (talk) 21:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

"Minority" ≠ "minor", and I meant the Latino community, not the spiritual one. Underrepresentation of Latinos in US mathematics is a problem, one I take seriously. But less seriously, now I'm sad that we don't have guidance WP:BLAND telling editors not to be bland. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I know "Minority" ≠ "minor", I speak three different languages, French, English, and Spanish, fluently, and they all have the same two words. I'm literally just going to retire from here. No one gives a fuck about what I'm saying. Radlrb (talk) 21:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Look at user talk, this does not appear to be the first time this has come up between you two. Looks like the two of you have been discussing this since at least sometime in June. Heck, it looks like the two of you even got along at one point. I strongly encourage you two to take a break from each other, as months of argument can make anyone irritable, and take a break from the page the dispute is over. Take some time, and then after a time apart, have a discussion between the two of you if you can be collaborative again. I strongly suspect how contentious this issue is relates directly to how long it has been going on, and can be de-escalated significantly just by taking a break. FrederalBacon (talk) 22:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Only if my concerns are heard, and if he too apologizes. There's no chance things will "just be okay" when he is prejudiced against me, and my spiritual and scientific practices, as evident. When he clearly violates respectful editing behaviors, and instigates rude comments such as suggesting I add junk, instead of using another more appropriate, and mature word. If he gives way and understands that he was condescending at multiple points... i.e. "what book in what page by which author..." etc, then I'll be okay. But if I'm the one that has to be yielding only, that's not happening. We did not get along there, that was the beginning of the issue at hand. Thank you for being positive however, at least one person sees a mediation possible. Radlrb (talk) 22:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

If you are going to make serious accusations of religious prejudice against me, here, I am going to require you to post diffs proving your case, as anyone making accusations of that nature here would be required to do. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:06, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Given that the three articles Radlrb is complaining about, Hendecagon, 177 (number), and golden ratio, have no connection to each other other than mathematics, the locus of the dispute seems to be mathematics in general rather than any individual article. I am not intending to stop editing mathematics articles (or golden ratio, to which I have been contributing since 2007) and I find the suggestion that I should do so over this to be a little insulting. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Did I say to stop editing mathematics? and take a break from the page the dispute is over. I never said stop editing mathematics. I said the articles the dispute was about, which are those three. I'm just saying, if there is this much dispute between the two of you, then maybe you should just stop talking to each other for a time. It seems like a pretty easy way to sort this ANI out withoutsanctions, since it appears to ultimately be a content dispute over whether or not something warrants inclusion in an article. FrederalBacon (talk) 23:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

It's not about content dispute, mainly. It's about the way he addresses me, and chooses not to peruse the reasons for my edit correctly. And, about his constant addressing of what he doesn't like as "junk", which is pejorative. Radlrb (talk) 23:12, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

That seems like a pox on both your houses for no apparent reason. Somebody is wrong and somebody is right here. And that does not call for a reenactment of the Judgement of Solomon. nableezy - 23:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree OP needs, at the very least, a trout whack, and, more probably, a boomerang. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:08, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Someone is right, and someone is wrong, sure, but we don't have to decide that in this ANI, since this is ultimately a content dispute. I'm not seeing anything in particular above to make me thing David was acting outright uncivil, but I see an absolutely contentious debate with no end. Both users are editing outside of the conflict pages, what is wrong with them going "We shouldn't talk to each other for a bit and not edit contentious pages to let us cooldown, to see if this discussion can be collaborative after the break"? instead of letting this ANI play out and potentially having sanctions against an editor? I was offering a solution that doesn't come to that. FrederalBacon (talk) 23:13, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Not every dispute over content is a content dispute. This seems like a pretty clear CIR issue. Either the complaining editor understands what OR means or they do not. If not they can learn, or be asked to find a new hobby. Either they understand the importance of citing sources to demonstrate the random factoid they want to include is not simply a random factoid but pertinent material for an encyclopedia article. If they not they can learn, or be asked to find a new hobby. The end you arent seeing is telling the user they are wrong here, that they can either read up on our editing policies to understand why they are wrong, and Im sure we have no shortage of people willing to help explain it to them, or they can persist and ultimately be asked to find another hobby. nableezy - 23:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• David, it is probably best (though difficult) to remain polite when dealing with this kind of trouble. You are clearly right on the substance and should not back down. The encyclopedia is not a garbage receptacle for whatever cruft somebody manages to add. Radlrb, you should recognize that David knows what he's talking about in the field of mathematics and kindly not irritate him by repeatedly pushing substandard content into the articles he's watching. Jehochman ^Talk 23:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  Except, my example of including an addition, was supported by 2 other people. I also know what I am talking about, and have plenty of experience in mathematics. Check my edits, if you'd like to get a taste of what I add, and tell my if they are meaningless.

  Yes, that is the issue, he is not polite. And insults the spiritual community by saying things like "some golden-ratio-loving scholars have picked at vague patterns in Debussy's compositions and even vaguer wording in quotes from Debussy in an attempt to find the golden ratio in his works. The results have been inconclusive." That's like saying "some latino-loving people," or throwing around another abject innuendo. Radlrb (talk) 23:14, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  May I suggest that you disengage from him for a bit. When you cross paths again in the future, try to be patient and ask him to explain his position. Give it good and thorough consideration. Time is your ally. Don't react immediately. Jehochman ^Talk 23:17, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  And let his insults keep circling around in Wikipedia. As I said, it's substantiated that he is not very attractive to engage disagreements with. He ignores you, and acts superior. In a condescending way. So just let him go around and keep on being like that to others? If you are okay with that, you can do that. But I am exclaiming that it is something that will just likely keep going on, he will and is acting right now as if he is unmoved. I'm just going to leave Wikipedia, at this rate. Why be here when we allow people like him insult his way around and belittle others the way he tries to belittle me? I'm not a punching bag. I stand up for myself and the people, like me, who have had the shaft in life. And it's quite clear to me that David likely hasn't had substantial experiences with prejudices, which are traumatic. So his comments, though they seem minor, actually instigate true emotional hurt. Radlrb (talk) 23:22, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  That's all well and good. Nobody should be a punching bag, or door mat. Our mathematics articles could use a lot of help. I urge you and others in the area to work on basic, non-controversial improvements, especially to make the articles more accessible to a general audience. I know a fair amount of math, and many of them are completely inscrutable when I try to read them. Jehochman ^Talk 23:26, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  Referring to content as "junk" or "cruft" is not a personal attack on you, Radlrb. It is commenting on the content not the contributor. Criticizing the weak Debussy content is not "insulting the spiritual community", whatever the heck that means. It is commenting on content not the contributor. That is precisely how we create high quality content and exclude poorly referenced, poor quality content. Cullen328 (talk) 23:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  The way he said it, is insulting. Definitely. There, you are wrong. Because he alludes, and includes, the entire effort of golden-ratio mathematics enthusiasts and pitting them as being head-less. You tell me, if you make an edit, and someone puts as reason "removing junk," if that won't annoy you. If it doesn't, then that is quite strange, because it is saying that you make junk. Anyways, as a scholar, usually one does not use these words, one uses more academic, and self-respecting words. Higher language, that is sure to remain neutral. That's the proper way of addressing these negative edits. Radlrb (talk) 23:33, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  That's mainly what I do, I try and stay away from controversial improvements, for this very reason. The edits on Talk:Golden_Ratio, were not controversial. They were simple, and most of us agreed that they should be included. Most of my additions are in the numbers category, and they are 95% of the time well sourced. Radlrb (talk) 23:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Cullen328: I actually don't think it's acceptable to call good faith edits by another editor "junk", that's definitely on the borderline of a personal attack against that editor. You can say you don't think it belongs in the article without using such loaded terms. That said, David is right on the substance of his arguments, the suggested edits to 177 and golden ratio were undue and/or trivia. I suggest David use politer language going forward, and that Radlrb back off from demanding apologies. The suggestion above for the two to have a cooling off period from each other seems sensible.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  There, that's the word, a loaded term. It is so loaded, and the other comments he made, are very loaded. The edits to the golden ratio were not trivia. Please explain, two other people agreed with the original author's thread suggested contribution. That's already a majority.

  If he doesn't apologize and admit that he is wrong, then no way. Good bye. This is not my place. That shows me that he doesn't care about his insensibility, and I won't aggrandize that behavior, or be a vehicle for it, especially since it comes to my surprise that he is not called out for it more explicitly. He reminds me of User:Arthur Rubin. Radlrb (talk) 23:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  If you'd like to check my contributions, see for example 22, 24, 11, or even 73, as well as the page on the golden ratio, which I substantially added to and finally matured the article into a sense of completion, after years of being in a sort of "limbo" without a complete geometry section. Even though I am new here this year, my goal was/is maybe to make sure all the number pages are clean, well sourced, and with more geometric properties which tend to be missing in these number pages. David has been literally the only person to direct my edits with a negative tone, and without respect off the bat. Radlrb (talk) 23:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  I appreciate you seeing light in some of what I am saying, thank you. Radlrb (talk) 00:11, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

  I am still waiting for the diffs you are required to post for the serious accusations of religious prejudice that you have made against me. Until you do so, or retract those accusations and apologize, I am not going to engage with anything else you say here. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

  diff Radlrb (talk) 00:24, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

  There is no mention of or allusion to religion in that diff. Your complaint is spurious.Cullen328 (talk) 00:29, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

  I never said it was about religion. I said it was about spirituality. Well, if you don't see it, you don't. It's quite well known that the golden ratio is sacrosanct to the New Age spiritual community, so saying "golden ratio-loving scholars" is a very soft and passive aggressive way of insulting their efforts, which by the way, are valuable. Obviously, he was being facetious with that comment. It added nothing, and was pure sarcasm, intended to make fun of my suggested edit. This is what I am saying, a comment like this is a rebuke, and an insult at the same time. Maybe you don't see it because you don't understand that the golden ratio is very valuable to many, who seek synchronicity in numbers, rather than blankly rejecting such a possibility, without proof. So saying "golden ratio-loving scholars" is quite condescending, when you see it from that perspective. Very salty. Like I said, it reflects off to me as saying something like, "black-loving whites", or "Mexican-loving people" which does get thrown around in the South (I am Venezuelan by the way). Radlrb (talk) 00:38, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Radlrb, if I added some math content to Wikipedia and an editor who has been contributing excellent math content for 16 years called my edit "junk", I would take that criticism seriously and strive to improve my editing. Especially if the editor took the time to explain in detail why it is junk or cruft. The fact that the editor is a professor at the University of California would be an additional factor in my mind, but maybe other editors would not care. When I read these conversations, I see David Eppstein making a real effort to explain his reasoning. I am a diplomatic person and prefer formulations like "poorly referenced content" to "junk", but in the end, it amounts to the same thing. Cullen328 (talk) 00:13, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

In the beginning, I had no idea who David Eppstein was, or what his contributions were. It's not an excuse to use condescending language, no matter how high up you are. Actually, the higher up, the worse it is, if someone uses adverse language. So I reject that notion that I have to look up to him simply because of his experience, I also factor in how he treats me, and actually I dedicate to that a large amount of value, because if he is demeaning, then that means that possibly it's 16 years of demeaning exchanges as well that he is accustomed to making. I have experience of 10 years in math myself, though I have not published anything yet, I have my own dissertation that I will put out in 2025, hopefully, which incorporates novel mathematical objects to study the evolution of numbers from one onto the other, like atoms. I also made a real effort to explain why I did my edits, and he began to insult and describe my edits as useless. That's not a good excuse to give him lee-way on this. I suggest you seriously consider how not just me, but many people have complained about his antics. Radlrb (talk) 00:29, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

The more I read what you have to say, the more convinced I am that it is you who is the problem in these specific matters, not David Eppstein, although he could be more diplomatic. You seem to be unprepared for the vigorous give and take needed to develop excellent encyclopedic content. Cullen328 (talk) 00:40, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, because you're also being insensitive and don't understand the prejudices I have been through, or many of us that make meaningful effort to improve an article who might share these prejudices against them. I am well aware of what it takes to make great encyclopedic content. Rejecting the opinion of 3 authors and hold your own, especially when it's valid, is not an example of what you are saying. He was disrespectful, period. Radlrb (talk) 00:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

You keep going on and on about the prejudices you have experienced, and I have no reason to doubt you. I happen to be a Jew and approximately 100 known members of my extended family were murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust. My father in law told some bloodcurdling stories about what happened to his family. And I have dealt with many antisemitic attacks during my time as a Wikipedia editor. But David Eppstein has never once mentioned your ethnic group. So why do you keep bringing it up? Cullen328 (talk) 02:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Check 22, 19, which I rewrote. Or here: diff, and tell me if you still think my encyclopedic improvements are not worthwhile - I basically reconstructed the golden ratio page, which is an important mathematics article. Or any of my other edits, for 5 for instance. Radlrb (talk) 00:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

At long last can you give it a rest?

• You find David Eppstein condescending? Well, I find you whiny, but you don't see me wasting everyone's time with an ANI thread about it.
• You're not a native English speaker, and my surmise is you attach outsized significance to words like junk that native speakers would not, and you can't get over it.
• the evolution of numbers from one onto the other, like atoms – I'll just let that sit there for others to contemplate.

EEng 00:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, for those that care about prejudice running around making the world worse, I take my time to make sure we pay attention to that. I will complain. Just as how Martin Luther King complained about racism, do you think he was whinny? Or anyone else that is frustrated against racist or misogynistic views?. Do I really have to spell it out for you?

I am not a Native English speaker but I've lived in the US for 18 years, and am an American citizen. So I am not attaching meaning without actual context. I speak English just as well as you.

I am not overly attaching significance to the word, I am attaching significance to the entirety of everything that he has said.

I've had it. I'm retiring. Most people here don't have the guts to stand up authority when they speak disrespectfully onto others. I tried, and now I'm letting go, and moving on. Thank you to those who at least saw at least some logic in my argumentation. Radlrb (talk) 01:04, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

First you're Galileo [150] and now you're MLK. Let me guess who's next ... Gandhi? And no: you don't speak (or write) English as well as I; that's pretty clearly part of the reason you're overreacting to all this stuff; and the fact that you can't see that by now is the crux of the problem. EEng 02:27, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Whatever David said, it wasn't about your racial background. And I don't know what spiritual community is supposed to mean. Is it Spiritism? Oh, I see, New Age spiritual community, although there are thousands different New Age communities, often at odds with each other. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:39, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I, for one, have nothing against spiritual communities of Velvet Underground fans. But if they believe they have figured out the golden ratio that made Lou Reed great, and want to add it to Wikipedia, they are going to need proper references. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:38, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

The world is full of people pushing crank theories and the more determined among them try very hard to push their theories on Wikipedia. I do not remember any other editor claiming authority on the basis that they are planning to publish a PhD thesis in three years, but thinking that such an assertion carries water on Wikipedia is evidence of a general lack of competence. We are summarizers here, not overly ambitious junior PhD students pushing our original research. Cullen328 (talk) 06:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

• Latecomers to the discussion should read David Eppstein or https://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/. Jehochman ^Talk 01:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Cruft? Junk? A spade eventually has to be called a spade. I find Eppstein's behavior in this matter to be entirely appropriate and to uphold the values of Wikipedia. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC).

The Golden ratio article has been a cruft magnet for many years. David Eppstein is one of its defenders (a role I was busy with myself, many years ago). Sure, he can be short sometimes with users who don't get it, but when a user keeps adding that kind of cruft there and elsewhere, is that surprising or worth much attention? I think not. Let it be. Or start an RFC to get more input on the content issue, rather than trying to settle it at ANI. Dicklyon (talk) 03:24, 13 August 2022 (UTC)