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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Wikipedia discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

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Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Be sure to include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing discussions easier.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this should not normally be in itself a problem at closure reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would call to use tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

Technical instructions for closers

Please append {{Doing}} to the discussion's entry you are closing so that no one duplicates your effort. When finished, replace it with {{Close}} or {{Done}} and an optional note, and consider sending a {{Ping}} to the editor who placed the request. Where a formal closure is not needed, reply with {{Not done}}. After addressing a request, please mark the {{Initiated}} template with |done=yes. ClueBot III will automatically archive requests marked with {{Already done}}, {{Close}}, {{Done}} {{Not done}}, and {{Resolved}}.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Wikipedia:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
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• Wikipedia:Proposed article splits

Requests for comment

RfC: Change INFOBOXUSE to recommend the use of infoboxes?

(Initiated 72 days ago on 15 March 2024) Ready to be closed. Charcoal feather (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

new closer needed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Before I try to close this I wanted to see if any editors believed I am WP:INVOLVED. I have no opinions on the broader topic, but I have previously participated in a single RfC on whether a specific article should include an infobox. I don't believe this makes me involved, as my participation was limited and on a very specific question, which is usually insufficient to establish an editor as involved on the broader topic, but given the strength of opinion on various sides I expect that any result will be controversial, so I wanted to raise the question here first. If editors present reasonable objections within the next few days I won't close; otherwise, unless another editor gets to it first, I will do so. BilledMammal (talk) 04:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC) I am involved in the underlying RfC, but my opinion on the issue is not particularly strong and I am putting on my closer hat now. Per WP:INVOLVED, "[i]nvolvement is construed broadly by the community". In the Rod Steiger RfC, you stated: [T]o the best of my knowledge (although I have not been involved in these discussions before) every recent RfC on including an infobox has been successful. From this it is clear that the topic is settled, and insisting on RfC's for every article risks becoming disruptive. Although the underlying RfC was on a very specific question, your statement touches on the broader question of whether editors should be allowed to contest including an infobox in a particular article, a practice that you said risks becoming disruptive because the topic is settled. That makes you involved—construing the term broadly—because answering this RfC in the affirmative would significantly shift the burden against those contesting infoboxes in future discussions. That said, if you can put aside your earlier assessment of consensus and only look at the arguments in this RfC, I don't see an issue with you closing. It wouldn't be a bad idea to disclose this at the RfC itself, and make sure that nobody there has any objections. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Pinging @BilledMammal. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC) if you can put aside your earlier assessment of consensus and only look at the arguments in this RfC, I don't see an issue with you closing; per WP:LOCALCON, I don't see lower level discussions as having any relevance to assessing the consensus of higher level discussions, so I can easily do so - consistent results at a lower level can indicate a WP:IDHT issue, but it can also indicate that a local consensus is out of step with broader community consensus. Either way, additional local discussions are unlikely to be productive, but a broader discussion might be. Per your suggestion I'll leave a note at the RfC, and see if there are objections presented there or here. BilledMammal (talk) 02:37, 21 May 2024 (UTC) I don’t think that !voting in an RfC necessarily equates to being too involved, but in this case, the nature of your !vote in the Steiger RfC was concerning enough to be a red flag. Is it still your contention that “every recent RfC on including an infobox has been successful. From this it is clear that the topic is settled, and insisting on RfC's for every article risks becoming disruptive”? That was wrong (and rather chilling) when you wrote it and is still wrong (and still chilling) now, as the current RfC makes rather clear. - SchroCat (talk) 03:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Is it still your contention that “every recent RfC on including an infobox has been successful. From this it is clear that the topic is settled, and insisting on RfC's for every article risks becoming disruptive”? No. I've only skimmed the RfC, but I see that while a majority have been successful a non-trivial number have not been - and the percentage that have not been has increased recently. BilledMammal (talk) 04:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Part of my problem is that you said it in the first place. It was incorrect when you first said it and it comes across as an attempt to shut down those who hold a differing opinion. As you're not an Admin, I'm also not sure that you can avoid WP:NACPIT and WP:BADNAC, both of which seem to suggest that controversial or non-obvious discussions are best left to Admins to close. - SchroCat (talk) 06:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC) In general, any concern that WP:IDHT behavior is going on could be seen as an attempt to shut down those who hold a differing opinion. I won't close this discussion, though generally I don't think that raising concerns about conduct make an editor involved regarding content. However, I reject BADNAC as an issue, both here and generally - I won't go into details in this discussion to keep matters on topic, but if you want to discuss please come to my talk page. BilledMammal (talk) 07:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC) There was no IDHT behaviour, which was the huge flaw in your comment. You presumed that "every recent RfC on including an infobox has been successful", which was the flawed basis from which to make a judgement about thinking people were being disruptive. Your opinion that there was IDHT behaviour which was disruptive is digging the hole further: stop digging is my advice, as is your rejection of WP:BADNAC ("(especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial"), but thank you for saying you won't be closing the discussion. - SchroCat (talk) 08:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:RSN#RFC:_The_Anti-Defamation_League

(Initiated 50 days ago on 7 April 2024) Three related RFCs in a trench coat. I personally think the consensus is fairly clear here, but it should definitely be an admin close. Loki (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• FYI this discussion can now be found in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 439. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Enforcing ECR for article creators

(Initiated 48 days ago on 8 April 2024) Discussion appears to have died down almost a month after this RfC opened. Would like to see a formal close of Q1 and Q2. Awesome Aasim 00:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Brothers of Italy#RfC on neo-fascism in info box 3 (Effectively option 4 from RfC2)

(Initiated 48 days ago on 8 April 2024) Clear consensus for change but not what to change to. I've handled this RfC very badly imo. User:Alexanderkowal — Preceding undated comment added 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: The RfC tag was removed the same day it was started. This should be closed as a discussion, not an RfC. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Mukokuseki#RfC on using the wording "stereotypically Western characteristics" in the lead

(Initiated 46 days ago on 11 April 2024) ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 09:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Mukokuseki#Close Plz 5/21/2024 Orchastrattor (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:SpaceX Starship flight tests#RfC: Should we list IFT mission outcome alongside launch outcome?

(Initiated 36 days ago on 20 April 2024) An involved user has repeatedly attempted to close this after adding their arguments. It's a divisive topic and a close would stop back and forth edits. DerVolkssport11 (talk) 12:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, the RfC was closed in this dif, and an IP editor unclosed it, with this statement: "involved and pushing"

In just over an hour, the above editor voiced support for the proposal.

I reclosed it, and the same IP opened the RfC again, with this message: "pushing by involved users so ask for more comments".

I reclosed once more. And then the editor who opened this requests opened it. To avoid violated WP:3RR, I have not reclosed it, instead messaging the original closer to notify them.

The proposal itself was an edit request that I rejected. The IP who made the request reopened the request, which I rejected once more. They then proceeded to open an RfC. Redacted II (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Hunter Biden#RfC: Washington Post report concerning emails

(Initiated 32 days ago on 24 April 2024) There's been no comments in 5 days. TarnishedPath^talk 03:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Total
CfD	0	0	10	14	24
TfD	0	0	0	4	4
MfD	0	0	0	2	2
FfD	0	0	0	8	8
RfD	0	0	4	25	29
AfD	0	0	0	21	21

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 27#Category:Unrecognized tribes in the United States

(Initiated 49 days ago on 7 April 2024) This one has been mentioned in a news outlet, so a close would ideally make sense to the outside world. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 13:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Stress marks in East Slavic words

(Initiated 21 days ago on 6 May 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Amina Hassan Sheikh

(Initiated 20 days ago on 6 May 2024) If the consensus is to do the selective histmerge I'm willing to use my own admin tools to push the button and do it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#Talkpage_"This_article_has_been_mentioned_by_a_media_organization:"_BRD

(Initiated 40 days ago on 16 April 2024) - Discussion on a talkpage template, Last comment 6 days ago, 10 comments, 4 people in discussion. Not unanimous, but perhaps there is consensus-ish or strength of argument-ish closure possible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to me that there is a consensus here to do anything, with most editors couching their statements as why it might (or might not) be done rather than why it should (or should not). I will opine that I'm not aware there's any precedent to exclude {{Press}} for any reason and that it would be very unusual, but I don't think that's good enough reason to just overrule Hipal. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 01:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 May#Multiple page move of David articles

(Initiated 25 days ago on 1 May 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Press_Your_Luck_scandal#Separate_articles

(Initiated 24 days ago on 2 May 2024) Please review this discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Agroforestry#Merge_proposal

(Initiated 23 days ago on 3 May 2024) As the proposer I presume I cannot close this. It was started more than a week ago and opinions differed somewhat. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 May#2018–2019 Gaza border protests

(Initiated 17 days ago on 9 May 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Mohsin17

Hello everyone. I am requesting the attention of the administrative noticeboard regarding continued disruptive editing by Mohsin17 (talk · contribs) after a recent block expiration.[1]

Since October 2013, [2] Mohsin17 has flagrantly ignored repeated requests from the community asking that he or she puts an end to the continued introduction of unsourced content, be it in the form of unsourced original research or poorly sourced content attributed to blogs/web forums. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]

See also the related discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notice board for Pakistan-related topics#Pakistani_cities_Transport_and_Economy_section

We have shown good faith to this editor for 2 years, and the responses received show an absolute defiance to our policies, going as far as making claims of discrimination. [12] [13] I feel that I, along with several other editors, have exhausted all attempts at communication with this individual and am now requesting community feedback on how to best proceed. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 17:36, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I have not ignored any requests by youtaor t anyone.The fact is that only a single person has objection on content added me and that's you. You are continuously targeting me, deleting my material and spreading hatred against me. Your behavior is totally biased Mohsin17 (talk) 20:03, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

If reverting your edits while assuming good faith to keep Wikipedia in accordance with policy and sending you notes to remind you of that means you're a target, then I don't know what to say. As multiple editors, Yamaguchi included, all agree that your edits are disruptive, you are by no means being targeted by an individual. It seems like that because you're the one in the spotlight. However, if you stop your disruptive editing and start editing productively, you'll find that you'll stop being called out. Amaury (talk) 20:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Mohsin17, please make note of my response to you at Wikipedia talk:Notice board for Pakistan-related topics which reads:

Mohsin17, numerous messages have been left on your talk page indicating that original research is not permitted on Wikipedia, and that sources are required for all significant content changes. I see on your talk page that you have been notified at least 5 times between now and October 2013, so I do not understand why you are continuing to add unsourced and otherwise poorly sourced content to these articles. Please adhere to our editorial policies and guidelines and I wish you well in you future endeavors. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 18:01, 2 October 2015 (UTC).

You are welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, provided that your contributions can be attributed to reliable third party source. Take the List of rapid transit systems in Pakistan article for example, where you have continued to dismiss our WP:V policy by introducing original research or using web forums hosted by SKYSCRAPERCITY.COM as a reference despite requests not to. Examples of sources you have used recently include: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1696650&page=46 - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1731754 - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3608 - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1698468 - et cetera. These are unacceptable per WP:USERGENERATED, please review Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources or request assistance from the community via the respective talk page. Persistent edit warring in opposition of our core policies is not the way. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 21:01, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello— Today, Mohsin17 (talk · contribs) has relapsed back to citing internet chat forums as sources despite multiple requests not to. [14] In some cases, the thread will discuss an article somewhere which may actually have encyclopedic purpose, and in other threads not. In any case, the SKYSCRAPERCITY.COM forums have no place being cited here. Will an uninvolved administrator or experienced editor please assist? Regards, Yamaguchi先生 18:23, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

@Mohsin17: Forums are not suitable reliable sources. I suggest you revert your addition else you will attract a block for disruption. Blackmane (talk) 01:13, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Mohsin17's reintroduction of internet chat forums as cited references on 07:08, 13 October 2015‎ remain in place in the List of rapid transit systems in Pakistan article at this time. I have disengaged from the article until an uninvolved administrator or experienced editor has an opportunity to review and intervene. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 17:06, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I posted a clear final notice that if Mohsin17 doesn't discontinue this practice of using original research and forum posts for sourcing, he will face a block. It could be that a block is warranted at this point but I like to give editors one last warning that a block is on its way if behavior doesn't change. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:30, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I've reverted it for you, Yamaguchi先生. Amaury (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Revisiting this issue in search of a resolution. I am requesting that the recent change to List of rapid transit systems in Pakistan by Mohsin17 (talk · contribs) be reviewed, again, by an uninvolved third party. See diff: [15] -- upon first glance it might appear that all claims have proper attribution. In actuality there are a multitude of claims which are all attributed to the base domain of website WWW.RAILPK.COM, lacking any verifiable page to confirm the data. This, in my mind, is a continuation of the uncited claims / original research issue. I have disengaged from the article entirely and have opted to present this to the community for further input. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 01:12, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I have gone ahead, and once again reverted to the previous version without the problematic sourcing. But could someone with WP:PROD and WP:AfD experience take a look at List of rapid transit systems in Pakistan and figure out if this article should be axed or not? Looking at it myself, it looks a little thin for inclusion IMO... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:50, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Update: Predictably, Mohsin17 reverted my restoration to (and then subsequent improvement of) the previous version of List of rapid transit systems in Pakistan (which I still think is basically a WP:COATRACK article that looks like a deletion candidate to me). I've now left a {{uw-editwar}} message on the user's Talk page, as this is Mohsin17's fourth or fifth reversion of others' changes to the article. I'd prefer not to revert Mohsin17 myself again here, but if someone else could revert to my last version, and Mohsin17 follows this up with yet another reversion, I think a quick trip to WP:ANEW would be fully justified. This definitely seems to be a case of disruptive editing, especially considering the warnings Moshin17 has gotten from Liz and others. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:29, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, ideally Mohsin17 would acknowledge the sourcing issues and start editing in a cooperative manner with our editorial policies in mind. I have already listed one article for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mubarak Center due to similar sourcing issues with the outcome still pending. When presenting my rationale for deletion there (lack of substantial coverage from reliable publications), he or she responded that "you just need to open your eyes and watch carefully instead of making excuses." This article is plagued with the same issues as List of rapid transit systems in Pakistan, relying heavily upon internet chat forums and vague references to the root domain name of a website, rather than the actual URL which supports the claims being made. There may be other articles affected in this same way, which would require closer examination. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 00:04, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Yamaguchi: can you clarify why you are removing this content? Is it because you believe it is incorrect, or you are not sure if it is correct, or because it is written badly, or perhaps WP:UNDUE concerns? Otherwise would it not be more constructive to help find sources for this content rather than just removing? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:19, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The concerns are primarily WP:V, that the claims being presented are original research, not directly attributed to a reliable source which is verifiable. Secondary concerns are undue weight, the grammatical problems can be resolved through the normal editing process provided that it makes sense to do so. I welcome your opinion on the matter, what do you feel is the best approach in this situation? Regards, Yamaguchi先生 15:42, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Request to lift temporary topic-ban

I request that this purely punitive two-month topic ban (the continuation of which has a purely punitive effect, however preventative it was intended when issued) by Future Perfect at Sunrise be lifted; it has been one month to the day so far. It's certainly not preventative of anything: The admittedly disruptive dispute at WT:MOS had already wound down and had moved to WP:ANEW; and two editors arguing about behavior at a noticeboard that exists for resolving behavioral disputes is not disruptive (though this WP:ACDS topic ban actually derailed that dispute resolution without any resolution being reached).

I can respond here, to address any questions or concerns over the next day, but I'm preparing to travel to Washington DC for WikiConference 2015, so I'm not sure when I'll be able to respond between late 7 Oct. and ca. 9 Oct, and will be AFK for much of 7 Oct., though available for a couple of hours from this posting, and again ca. 12 hours after it.

The ban was applied one-sidedly on a technicality (the other editor's discretionary sanctions alert had expired), although the admin had initially intended it to apply equally to both parties [16]. My repeated requests, on my own talk page (see [17], [18], [19], and [20] and that of the admin (see [21], [22], and [23]) for it to be narrowed or even clarified as to what it really means, have been totally ignored, as was my request (see diffs above from my own talk page) for evidence of its justification (the admin made accusations without diffing any evidence to support them, which is among the things that WP:ARBATC in particular was enacted to restrain, ironically). Weirdly, despite saying they would address these questions and concerns promptly [24], the admin has been active the entire time, even issuing further topic bans to others, then later archived the requests without any comment or action.

I've been just living with this TB in good faith, but it's getting to WP:IAR levels of impracticality at this point. All it's doing is muzzling me from routine participation, having the WP equivalent of a chilling effect on my ability and willingness to edit. I have a big pile of reliable sources to add to the affected article, and am just sitting on them twiddling my thumbs. The article in its present state is so bad that The Guardian publicly criticized Wikipedia for it, and that newspaper article is still in top-ten Google search results for the subject [25]. All this TB is doing is preventing me from genuinely improving a public-eyesore article (a genuine PR problem for WP) with RS research I've already done. Well, it's also denying me the ability to participate in any MoS-related discussion, despite the disruptive discussion having been very narrowly focused on one topic, and entirely a two-editor pissing match, not a general brou-ha-ha; a far more useful approach would have been an interaction ban for a while. But even that would not be needed at this point; ironically, I was in the middle of drafting a constructive olive-branch message for the other editor's talk page when FPaS dropped the TB bomb on me, and its overreaching scope actually prohibits me from posting it! What good is a TB that prevents editors trying to work out their differences?

Additional rationales and details supporting this request

I've outlined here a handful of the interference this is causing. Due to its overbreadth and vagueness, I fear even editing anything MoS-related in a sandbox or draft page, answering any requests for my participation (e.g. [26] and [27] today alone) even just to say that I'm not allowed to participate, citing MoS as a rationale in any discussion (which is why I've almost totally avoided WP:RM lately, and most WP:RFCs and WP:VP discussions I would normally contribute to), as well as editing anything related to WP:AT (because WP:ARBATC covers both, and the admin in question cited that as the basis of their ACDS against me). For all I know, I'm about to be punished further since this very request mentions MoS in passing. The extension of the topic ban to an article, that I was obviously actively working on sourcing, is especially uncalled-for and unjustifiable; it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The scope of ARBATC does not even include actual articles that happen to be about punctuation or other linguistic matters; it's about disputes relating to WP:AT policy and the WP:MOS guidelines. This is exactly the same as topic-banning someone from Japan-related articles because of disputation over MOS:JAPAN matters; I raise that example specifically because WP:ANI recently concluded multiple times against such a topic ban, in cases of far more intractable conflict. In short, the TB appears to conflict with WP:ACDS#Placing sanctions and page restrictions, in being disproportionate. The entire basis of it seems shaky to me to begin with. I opened a WP:ANEW discussion about another editor's actions (very clearly documented by me), spanning an MOS page, an article, both talk pages, and even an associated Wiktionary article, and then was slapped with ACDS for "addressing editor instead of content". But the entire purpose of such noticeboards is addressing editor behavior. It's not a "personal attack" to raise such concerns on a noticeboard, even if my tone could have been calmer. I feel that I've been railroaded unfairly here, and that ACDS is being misapplied to interfere with actual encyclopedia work, with normal consensus formation at both a policypage and an article, and normal dispute resolution at a noticeboard. The purpose of ACDS is not to "settle" disputes by short-circuiting normal process to declare whoever is quieter to be the "winner". We have talk pages to resolve conflicts about pages' content and the sources for it; we have noticeboards to fairly and correctly resolve editing disputes in the readership's and the community's best interests; and we have ACDS to stop actual disruption in particularly dispute-prone topics, as a last resort. An ANEW report pending neutral investigation is hardly a last-resort situation; nothing was being disrupted by one editor arguing with another about behavior on a behavioral noticeboard. And no disruption was prevented by retroactively applying ACDS punitively for disruption at an MoS talk page where the dispute had already fizzled out and moved to a noticeboard.

I concede that my tone was intemperate in the original dispute, and it was a mistake on my part to allow myself to engage in a dispute that became too heated, circular, and lengthy. One month is more than enough time to re-think my approach to this issue entirely (namely just sourcing the question reliably beyond most further argument – though the overbroad TB actually prevents me from doing this! – instead of continuing to argue back and forth about the matter, and starting at the article, where resolving this really matters the most, since it's our encyclopedia content, not an internal question of style guide wording). I also have a long history of coming to peaceable terms with editors with whom I've had vociferous disputes in the past, and I look forward to that kind of resolution with the other editor in the dispute behind this incident (with whom I already agree much of the time on most matters). If not for this TB we probably would already have such a resolution.

 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC) Added info about The Guardian article and prevention of user-talk dispute resolution.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  04:58, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support In looking, it looks like SMcCandlish used dispute resolution , rather than just edit war, to resolve the issue and it didn't work, further, he politely contacted Future Perfect at Sunrise for clarification and it looks like FPOS just brushed him off. I'd say lift it. KoshVorlon 10:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Update:' Off to WikiConference. Probably incomunciado for a day or so.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:28, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  Got airport wifi for a few hours, if anyone wants to ask anything.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support, I think. I'll admit I haven't read over everything because frankly there's a lot of it and it's pretty dry reading. But I think it's worth giving SMc the chance here, he's handled the banning admin's lack of communication pretty well and he does sound like he's learned from the situation. Worst case scenario, the topic ban just gets reimposed, but I judge the chances of that happening pretty small. Jenks24 (talk) 11:35, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• Request closure in favor of the request: This was open so long, without opposition, and without further comment but the supports, that a bot already auto-archived it once. If there are any questions/concerns, I have WiFi for about 20 min. (WikiConference is closed now, I'm at a café), and will again a few hours after that, at the airport.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:53, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
• The bot shouldn't have archived this rather new thread so quickly. I think it deserves more feedback if admins who are familiar with the topic ban could weigh in. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
• Just lift it. I've already supported above, but this has been open for what four or five days and no one has opposed. FPAS is a good admin and I'm not saying the topic ban was a bad decision – certainly from what I glanced on my watchlist it was becoming an unhealthy and unproductive discussion for those involved – but it's now a month on and even FPAS doesn't seem to want to comment here (he has been editing while this discussion has been open) and say that the topic ban should continue. SMc will know he's treading a fine line in this area for a while and it's not like MoS talk pages are unwatched by anyone – I'm sure in the unlikely event he does anything silly it will be easy to come back here and re-apply, but in the meantime we should AGF for a long-term contributor who has clearly learned from the situation. Jenks24 (talk) 01:48, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
• OP calls the temporary topic ban "purely punitive", but I see no evidence to show that punishing him was the motivation behind it. Without supporting facts, perhaps he would be advised to strike that claim. In any event, I don't think it's appropriate to remove the topic ban without first hearing from the sanctioning admin, FPAS -- which could also shed light on the reason he applied the ban. So, let's call this a procedural oppose until that happens. BMK (talk) 03:12, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

• Pinging @Future Perfect at Sunrise: in regard to the above. BMK (talk) 03:13, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
• @Beyond My Ken:. Done. My intent was never to imply a punitive motive (what on earth would be the point of attacking FPaS's motivations when the TB was for allegedly attacking someone else's motives to begin with?), only that this long after the event, it has a punitive effect and no preventative one. See latest post on my talk page: Even the other party in the original dispute is inviting my commentary on a current MoS matter. This water isn't just under the bridge but has flowed well past it at this point.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

• The point of a topic ban from MOS was to prevent you from participating at MOS. If your only real argument for lifting (from taking a look above) a reasonably placed ban is that its punitive because it prevents you from editing in the area its designed to prevent you editing in due to past behaviour... Well that is pretty much the point of it. Its 2 months. Take a break for 4 more weeks. Oppose Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:37, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The point of a topic ban for anyone from anything is to prevent disruption of or relating to that topic, not (constructive) participation in it. I've already explained why the TB should be lifted early. Given that, as far as I recall, every single one of the quite infrequent disciplinary actions ever taken against me in over ten years on this project has involved a sentiment that my posts leading up to and in defense against said action are long-winded and repetitive, I decline to be drawn into another re-explanation of what I already explained in probably too much detail above already, and which others seem to be accepting without coming to the assumption of circular reasoning you are.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
    • "The point of a topic ban for anyone from anything is to prevent disruption of or relating to that topic, not (constructive) participation in it" is incorrect. "The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid an editor from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive, but to allow them to edit the rest of Wikipedia. Unless clearly and unambiguously specified otherwise, a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic." This was all the explanation ever needed. Any participation is banned. Period! You were deemed to be disruptive in the MOS topic area and temporarily topic banned accordingly. You may have never agreed with it or accepted it, but that is totally immaterial to the banning policy. You are allowed to neither disrupt nor constructively participate in the topic area until the topic ban expires. That's it in a nutshell. It wasn't punitive then, and it still isn't punitive after all this extra filibustering. Doc talk 08:26, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
      • That comment seems to serve no purpose. I obviously understand that I can't participate in the affected topic constructively, or I would not be asking for the TBan to be lifted early on the basis that its interference with me doing so is more harm to the project than good. Doc did not actually understand what I wrote, which is about the point of, not result of, a topic ban. I decline to re-re-explain this, for reasons already given above, or to address Doc in any more detail directly, for reasons already given below.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:30, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
        • Please do not "re-re-explain" things, as that doesn't seem to work out too well for you. We are not under an IBAN at all. I can say whatever I want about you, and vice-versa. It does not behoove you to claim that the topic ban is doing more harm to the project than good. The utter hubris of that notion is something you need to get a hold of. The project will get along just fine without you, and you are very replaceable. We all are. Get over it. Doc talk 06:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
          • I guess this deserves a response; I don't mean to imply above that I would totally ignore you, just not respond if the interaction seemed unconstructive. Anyway, it's not hubris; it has nothing to do with any notion that I'm magically special, I simply happen to have done a big load of sourcing work for the article in question, then the TBan (which probably does not validly include the article in the first place, because of ARBATC's WP-namespace scope) landed literally as I was in the middle of adding these sources to the article. It's about the article and bureaucracy blocking work on it for no common-sensical reason. It also, secondarily, doesn't make much sense to maintain the MOS side the TBan when the other party to the desipute among others (see new post on my talk page today, for example) are inviting my participation there. Even the admin who impose the TB has ignored everything about it, pro and con. No one cares to see it continue but you from what I can tell, and you seem to be approaching it from an "insufficient reason to end it early" viewpoint rather than a "sufficient reason to continue it" one. I think that's significant, given the reasons I've provided why it should not continue and why it was questionable to begin with.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  18:46, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
        • "No one cares to see it continue but you from what I can tell". Do you not see the comments above from BMK and Only in death? In reality there's no consensus to lift the ban early, and you've got less than two weeks on it. Take your lumps, STFU, and stop whining about it. Facepalm Doc talk 07:12, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
          • BMK opposed only conditionally, and I complied with the condition. OiD raised an objection that I addressed. I decline to respond to your verbal aggressiveness any further, per previous ANI discussions advising mutual avoidance.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. There’s no compelling reason to lift the topic ban early. Are we supposed to believe that we are all really being punished or deprived by not allowing him to get right back into the MOS fray that much sooner? He has maintained that the block was punitive from the very beginning with his 8-point demand for an “explanation”. "Whatever the intent, this comes across as a "punish more who ever posted more or more loudly” decision".[28] What amount of “explaining” would satisfy SMcCandlish that the topic ban was ever justified at all? Filibustering was specifically mentioned; and this continued whinging about a simple 2-month topic ban has wasted enough time. He said right off the bat "I'm not going to whine about receiving a temporary topic ban as onerous”... but here we are! To claim that "only that this long after the event, it has a punitive effect and no preventative one" flies in the face of what he’s been complaining about all along. To claim a PR issue because he is forced to "twiddle his thumbs" instead of protecting the encyclopedia is just... reaching. I don’t blame FPAS for not wanting to waste a ton of time arguing with him (though he really should comment here). SMcCandlish was given a little “time out” from MOS for two months. Plenty of other things for him to do in the meantime. Explanation time is over! Doc talk 12:19, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Just for the record, Doc is hardly a neutral commenter on this matter, given that I lodged two ANI complaints about him last month, and the consensus was we should avoid interacting with each other for some while. His comment here does not appear to qualify as doing so.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:26, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
• Alternative request: If this request for an end to the TBan en toto is seen as too broad, I alternatively suggest that a) its extension from MOS to mainspace be lifted, and b) that I be permitted to respond to MOS discussions in which my input is directly requested/suggested, through either pings or notices on my talk page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  18:46, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Update: Direct requests for my input at MoS continue, from surprising quarters, like soap opera article talk pages.[29]. I had posted a response to a punctuation issue, relying on external style guides, not MoS; was invited to an MoS thread on the topic; declined because of this TBan (and discounted my own value to the discussion); and the result is a public complaint about my absence from the MoS discussion. Doc, above, calls this "hubris"; I call it "observation of what people are directly asking me to do here as a volunteer". PS: Note that way back on the 11th, Liz wrote, about this being bot-archived when still open and unopposed, "admins who are familiar with the topic ban could weigh in." Zero have done so since then.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support: SMcCandlish is often willing to help on Wikpedia matters, including WP:MOS matters, when others are not. His "23:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)" post above is an accurate reflection of my feelings. And I state that as someone who has disagreed with SMcCandlish times before; we've also exchanged heated words before (not often, though). SMcCandlish is able to recognize when he's wrong and take time to reflect on where he might have been wrong. I currently see no need for the aforementioned ban to stay in place. Flyer22 (talk) 04:09, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
• When you say that "I have a big pile of reliable sources to add to the affected article", are you referring to the encyclopedia article about Quotation marks in English (not WP:MOS, but explicitly included in the "broadly construed" rule)? Or to something else? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:30, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
  • @WhatamIdoing: Yes; that is the only article affected by the TBan. I'd done three days of source research to improve the article, and the TBan was put on me literally as I was editing it in one window, and writing a message to the other party in the already-waning dispute, in another window, toward reconciliation. This is seriously one of the least actually preventative TBans ever (given that the disputation on WT:MOS had already tapered off anyway), unless you count preventing improving articles and preventing dispute resolution.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:48, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support - I really wanted to hear from the blocking admin, FPAS, but since he hasn't come by to comment, and since SMc has struck the part of his request I objected to, I now support the removal of the TBan. There's no reason SmC should suffer because FPAS didn't respond to explain. BMK (talk) 22:29, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Bebbebopp appears to be a sock

Edits are here. Should we just block this account? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:28, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I haven't read through all of the discussions on the talk page of the article. @Doc James: do you have an opinion (evidence) on who the master may be? They are clearly not a new editor.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes not sure what other accounts they use. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

This is the wrong venue for this discussion. It should be taken to WP:SPI. But to do that, you need actual evidence in the form of diffs, which Doc James doesn't appear to have. It's also worth noting he doesn't appear here with exactly clean hands. He's canvassed for his position in the WP:RM discussion at Talk:Honey bucket and he's involved in a dispute on that page with Bebbebopp over what the outcome of the RM should be and also over what constitutes COI. His complaint here has a little too much of the feel of trying to take out an opponent for my taste, especially as an admin coming to an admin board where he might find friends rather than the correct venue where he might not. This complaint should be closed no action. If Doc has genuine evidence, he should take it to the proper venue. Msnicki (talk) 00:24, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Msnicki, I notice that you don't acknowledge that this account is not new and that Doc's suspicions are well-founded. You don't think this is a sock?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree it's a new account and the behavior suggests this is someone who's been around for a while. So there's reason for suspicion. But that broad suspicion is not evidence. Evidence would be diffs showing that two accounts are likely the same person and that they're being used in a way we don't allow. It is entirely possible this is an individual who's been editing for years as an IP but finally got an account. We need evidence of wrongdoing, not just broad suspicion. And if anyone has some, the place to take it is WP:SPI, not here. Msnicki (talk) 03:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I've had more time this morning to look at the Bebbebopp's edit history and have decided I think this is a genuinely new user with very little experience simply doing his/her best. We should not WP:BITE. Bebbebopp's arguments about COI make it appear he/she is an experienced editor. I think it's just evidence he/she is trying to read and apply our guidelines. But this is definitely a newbie. Notice that in the first 4 of this editor's 9 edits, he/she had trouble getting the signature right. It doesn't get more newbie than that. I suppose a really cunning, calculating sock might do that, just to throw us off scent, but that seems unlikely to me. Msnicki (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems unlikely to you that a sockmaster would make make deliberate mistakes with a new sock just to throw us off? So... you've never seen that before, in any other sock, ever?

I see. BMK (talk) 22:36, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

My observation is that people always seem to expect their behavior is normal. If they're constantly pushing the envelope, getting into fights and gaming the system, they expect this is normal behavior for everyone and it causes them to be suspicious of everyone, even if there's no real evidence. By contrast, I'm pretty honest and I try to follow the rules, so that's what I expect unless there's some real evidence. Msnicki (talk) 01:50, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Ooooh, snap, pretty clever the way you did that, insulted me without seeming to. Well done! BMK (talk) 02:03, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment This account is User:EChastain, blocked as a sock of User:Mattisse. The sanitation edits are the calling card. RO^(talk) 00:06, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

• Wow, nice call on that one Rational. I guess this can be closed now as checkuser Mike V confirmed and blocked Bebbebopp as a sock of Mattisse. I have logged the info over at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Mattisse - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:51, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Template:Banned user

I was just looking at a couple templates and noticed {{Banned user}} appearing on userpages for users that aren't actually blocked (discounting sandboxes/lists of templates). This might not be an issue at all, but it seems like one of the few userpage templates that should really only be used for its intended purpose (though there's no restriction in the template documentation, as far as I can see) so it seemed worth mentioning here. In a couple cases it looks to be non-serious (Voldejenn, MegastarLV). Rick73s looks to have added it himself (out of frustration?). Empengent and Carlisle Rodham have sock puppet tags but the block was removed by WP:BASC. And a few others were just never blocked: Macallla, Jumpika025, and Wanli. That's all. Feel free to close this thread if there's already consensus that these can be displayed on non-blocked accounts. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:50, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I lookd at a few of your sample. Macallla is globally locked, so no local block is necessary. The ban discussion is located at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive790#AN/TPS-43. The tags for Carlisle Rodham were removed by user:John Vandenberg, an admin who was at the time an arb as well if I recall correctly. The tags were restored by a different (non-admin) user for reasons that are unclear. I have removed them. Wanli was banned in 2003 for using Wikipedia as a file storage facility. I found in this discussion that there's no block logs extant for anything prior to around 2004. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:48, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

@Diannaa: Thanks for looking into it. Indeed I did not know that block logs only began in 2004. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:36, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

@Diannaa and Rhododendrites: Before the automated logs were established in late 2004, the logs were on pages in the Wikipedia namespace, such as Wikipedia:Block log/Archive1 and Wikipedia:Block log/Archive2 (which mention Wanli, but don't note that user's actual ban. Those logs only go back to November 2003, and it was impossible to block usernames before September 2003. Wanli appears to have been banned in March 2003 by a developer. Graham87 09:58, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

See here for explanation of my edit. For future reference, it is always a good idea to look at contribs around the time of an edit by an arbitrator, or email an arbitrator, before reverting an edit like this. thx Diannaa for reverting the revert. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 23:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )#October 2015

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

Remedy 2.2 of the Richard Arthur Norton (1958 - ) case is struck and replaced by:

2.3) Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ("RAN") is indefinitely prohibited from:

Creating any articles or draft articles in any namespace.

Moving any page into the article namespace from any other namespace.

Other editors may move pages created or substantially edited by RAN, but only if they explicitly take responsibility for any copyright violations on that page.

This remedy may be appealed after the later of 6 months and when all draft articles he has authored, in his userspace and in the draft namespace, have been verified free of copyright violations and moved :::to the article namespace by other editors or deleted. In order for appeals of this remedy to be considered, he shall be required to submit evidence of substantial work on his part towards resolving the :::Contributor Copyright Investigations (CCI) filed against him, most particularly the one focused on his text contributions.

Any article or draft article created contrary to this restriction will result in a block, initially of at least one month and then proceeding per the enforcement provisions. The article or draft article :::may be speedily deleted under criterion G5 by any administrator.

Any page moves made contrary to this restriction may be enforced by blocks per the enforcement provisions. The page move may be reversed by any editor able to do so.

For the Arbitration Committee, Amortias (T)(C) 17:15, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) October 2015

NOTICE: Volunteers are called upon to review RAN's userspace drafts and move them to the mainspace. They're listed on his user page or can be seen from this PrefixIndex query. Most of them don't seem to have any copyright issues. 103.6.159.89 (talk) 17:04, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Request for RFC close review

I closed a RFC on Talk:Serbs_of_Croatia#Serbs_as_.22constitutive.22_nation_in_Socialist_Republic_of_Croatia as an editor closer. I found consensus and closed the RFC. One of the participants FkpCascais is unhappy with the close and continues to fight against the findings of consensus even after I tried to clarify.Talk:Serbs_of_Croatia#Clarification_of_RFC. I am asking for a review of the close. Thanks. AlbinoFerret 01:12, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Eastern European politics is generally a very contentious topic -- there are Discretionary Sanctions covering it -- and it probably would have been better to have allowed an admin to close the RfC. Although there is no absolute ban on NACs for such subjects, there generally is less of a problem with an admin close compared to a non-admin close when the subject matter is contentious. BMK (talk) 02:26, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

It certainly should have been an admin closing, and probably sanctioning Albino for clearly copy/pasting the wish of one side, recomending ignoring 20 reliable sources, and saying he clarified when in fact he refused to answer questions I made him. Can an admin please see the case, it is unbelivable what happend there. FkpCascais (talk) 02:51, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Sanctioning Albino for the close is not a reasonable suggestion. There was no bad faith act here, AlbinoFerret has a long history of making closures without bias. HighInBC 03:01, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

It is my fist time I interacted with him and all I can say is that his close is the most tendentious close I have ever seen here over the last decade. Copy/pasting the demands of one side, recomending the removal of content sourced with 20 reliable sources and the replacement of my content with a sentence saying the opposite and incorrectly sourced? Also, I had already told him I was going to ask for a review of hiis close, so why is he reporting me now? FkpCascais (talk) 03:15, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oh come on, Albino doesnt even know the difference between "Contitutional" and "constitutive" (him claiming its the same after I called his atention for the mistake he made in the close by mixing constitutive with constitutional) and is making such a sensitive close in a contentious area such as this one? FkpCascais (talk) 03:37, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

It was a word mistake, I corrected it. Mainly because of a concern of yours brought up during the clarification. AlbinoFerret 04:16, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

(ec)@BMK Thats true, there is usually less problems with an admin close. This close is good though BMK. I am sure it will be supported. If it had not been clear, I wouldn't have closed it and left it to an admin. AlbinoFerret 02:53, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The case is actually not very complicated at all. I made a resume at bottom of the talk-page. AlbinoFerret, please correct me if you believe I said something wrong there, or add if you believe something is missing. Also, I will like to apologise for having proposed santions here to you. I do find your rationale wrong, tendentious and going against several rules by itself, but seing the situation in the long discuions I understand you were missguided by the superior number of users opposing me and you applied WP:POLL. Thank you for asking for a review. FkpCascais (talk) 04:37, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

RFC's are not a vote count. I did not apply poll. AlbinoFerret 04:50, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Allow me to explain then. You come to a RfC dealing with an issue regarding a Serbo-Croatian dispute. There are clearly two sides, one formed by 3-4 Croatian users opposing the sourced text I added, and me, alone but backed by 20 reliable sources. Since they lack sources, they are saying the matter is irrelevant thus should be removed, an argument hard to understand since in a article Serbs of Croatia the constitutional status of Serbs in Croatia is basically the most important thing. Also, they are saying the term is not well defined, thus clearly claiming the 20 authors of my sources are not knowing what they are talking about, an argument hardly sustainable. You close the RfC claiming consensus and agreement between the parties, while your rationale is just a copy of the arguments of their side. Sorry, but in my view your rationale is clearly a way of using WP:POLL to get perfectly sourced material out of the article. FkpCascais (talk) 16:10, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I am an uninvolved editor, I dont edit in this area. I could really care less what side of this discussion gained consensus. Thats not the role of a closer. The role of a closer is to determine where consensus (agreement) lies. As for pointing out things mentioned by the majority opinion, well thats part of closing, to show what the agreement is. I will now wait for others to chime in on the close. AlbinoFerret 19:35, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

• Note In the interests of full disclosure I have removed the comment of a block evading user from this thread: [30]. This user has been evading blocks for months now with an unlimited number of fresh IPs. I have no opinion on the RFC, I suggest those involved in the dispute give some time for an uninvolved review to form here. HighInBC 15:57, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse - The close was a reasonable assessment of consensus. FkpCascais' frustration is understandable given that he presented a large list of sources that appear to support the proposed wording and some solid arguments for which he should be commended. But after you eliminate the original research, personal attacks, and tendentious arguments from obvious sock puppets, there were still strong arguments made by a couple of experienced editors that the sources are not adequate to support the proposed wording. This was summarized accurately by AlbinoFerret in my opinion. The only thing I might have done differently is to close the discussion as no consensus. Of course nothing prevents FkpCascais, or anyone else, from seeking a new consensus for slightly different wording based on the same sources.- MrX 17:05, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you MrX. Despite not agreing with me totally, I do understand perfectly well what you are saying. However, while I read you perfectly well, that doesnt happend at all with AlbinoFerret, his close, and his posterior clarifications. Allow me to explain what concretely makes this close unacceptable in my view: he recomends removing a clear fact saying "X happend" and replace it with "Serbs perceved X happened". I presented 20 sources clearly backing the fact (there are more, I can bring them as well), all English-language, and clearly demonstrating that it is a mainstream view on the issue. No sources are saying the opposite or challenging it. But, the sentence he recomends using provides a clear indication that X didnt happend and only Serbs perceved it that way. So his close recomendation enters in direct confrontation with all sources and the scholar mainstream view on the matter. And to make it even worste, the only source backing that wording is not even saying it, but just uses that wording because the author deals with Serbian perception of the events, but not saying they are the only ones. So the sentence is not sourced at all. Implementing his close would break several fundamental and editing rules. Regarding the rest of the close arguments, saying that my text should be removed because we dont have the exact definition of "loss of contitutive nation status" is basically saying the autors are saying that but not knowing what they are talking about. Over 20 authors use the expression and some explain it quite well, it is not truth the term is not defined. Some sources even give exemples. And last, he says there is consensus and agreement between the parties, well, he missed the fact that this particular discussion was between 4 users on one side, and one on another. Well, the 4 of them agree ammong them, and I am opposing, so he is just using the disproportion in numbersagainst me to claim there is agreement and consensus. There is consensus and agreement ammong editors of one side, but that is not news. So, yes, we can work towards making the section better and better, I even asked Joy to provide sugestions. But we should not remove perfectly sourced text because of the reasons presented. FkpCascais (talk) 22:58, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - While I cannot in all honesty support or oppose the closure due to the sheer length of the debate, I have read the various "requests for clarification" and "application of consensus" after the RfC's closure, and I have noticed a slightly worrying attitude on AlbinoFerret's side of, to paraphrase, "I froze consensus, so now you must accept it, regardless of the validity of the arguments you're now making [which may or may not be repetitions of ones made before]". Other editors also repeatedly noted that having the specific statement FkpCascais was superfluous, meant beating a dead horse, or was a detail too small to be included, even though it was supported by many sources and notwithstanding the quite compellinig "the sky is blue and every sources says so!" argument. I think there is ground to look at this RfC's material yet again. LjL (talk) 19:58, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

There's so much noise here that things get lost. Let me repeat this little tidbit I posted over there a month ago: "We have an RFC about a single ancient hot-button political issue that refers to Serbs in SR Croatia, while at the same time the article has an entirely empty section about the Serbs in SR Croatia." In the meantime, the section was expanded, but basically only as far as incorporating teaching this particular controversy in there, and some material was moved from the next section, which makes for a more graceful transition into the next section. That is why I've told FkpCascais that their rants are pointless - because the effort expended on this issue is disproportionate to the actual benefit to the encyclopedia from pontificating on this. Readers are told at length about the formal status of the Serbs of Croatia, which serves as a lead-in into a huge section about a war. But the war didn't happen because of these intricate formalities, so the article has been pretty much completely missing the mark in this regard. And instead of fixing that real issue, we're spending a month squabbling over a talking point. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:38, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

And yet, if that particular point has enough decent sources supplied by FkpCascais, then FkpCascais's wording can be used and the matter closed. I don't think it's fair to just say "there are more important things to take care of in the article", if that's just about the only criticism to the sources-backed point. LjL (talk) 21:27, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I will briefly point out the problem that was brought out in the RFC. The sources FkpCascais wants to use dont define the terms that he wants to use, and the one source that does, he doesnt want to use. That is the core of the problem I saw in the RFC. Can an editor gather a bunch of sources and define the terms they use, but dont define, as he wants them to be defined. The consensus said no, we need a definition of the terms from a source. Then they said (paraphrasing) Hey this other article on a similar subject has a claim and its sourced and explained, lets use that. AlbinoFerret 22:54, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The sources do define the term, and I do want to use the source from the sentence you want to insert in, however, that source is just saying Serbs perceved events that way, and basically just further backing what the 20 of mine say. I said several times that I opose the missuse you want todo with the source, which is to give a clear impressions that only Serbs perceved events that way but the reality is different. She desnt say that in the source. FkpCascais (talk) 23:02, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

What is the term in question again? "Constitutive nation"? LjL (talk) 23:04, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes. AlbinoFerret 23:06, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that's a term that necessarily needs a contextual definition to be used according to the dictionary meanings of the two components. If otherwise reliable sources use it without explaining it, I'd go along and use it without trying to explain it (while of course, trying to explain it in imaginative ways could easily constitute original research). LjL (talk) 23:11, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Some sources of mine even explain what the loss of the status means and provide exemples. FkpCascais (talk) 23:14, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

@LjL That what I got from reading the RFC, its one of the reasons the consensus wants a definition, or a source that defines or explains, to avoid OR. While FkpCascais claims they do, multiple editors point out they dont. The other editors even suggested finding a source and then adding the claim after it was discussed. AlbinoFerret 23:19, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

But as long as you don't attempt to give a definition, it can't be OR (since there is no research being made - or every article that's lacking some information would be doing original research, which is an absurd idea), right? You'd only be stating what the sources say while possibly leaving some terms loosely defined / defined only in lay dictionary terms (something the sources potentially also do). LjL (talk) 23:24, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

But FkpCascais wants to use the loss of "Constitutive nation" to imply some kind of loss of rights. But since its not defined, it cant be compared to what came afterwards. The source the consensus wants to use says there was no real difference, just words on paper (paraphrasing). AlbinoFerret 23:32, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

But if the sources (assuming they're agreed to be reliable, of course!) proceed to explain what in their view the loss of rights actually was, in theory and in practice, then that can be reported, even if the term is left undefined. If the problem is that the sources, by elaborating on constitutionally-undefined terms, are doing original research... well, sources can and should do that. LjL (talk) 23:37, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Thats another issue in the rfc brought up by multiple editors, the sources are not really reliable for the extraordinary claim if they do make a close statement. Lack of references and definitions or explanations pretty much kill them. Its like a source saying the sun is green and then going on to describe the color green when other sources say its yellow. Read the RFC, I know its very long, but these are not my arguments, I just closed and I am probably missing some of the finer points. Since the close things have gotten very busy for me. AlbinoFerret 23:50, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Since FkpCascais presented a selection of sources again (I presume the ones he considered the most conclusive) on the article's talk page, I went for a quick analysis of them and of the four of them, it seems to me that two actually contradict his position, and the other two are relatively dodgy. LjL (talk) 00:11, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

You incorrectly read one of them, strange, as it doesnt say at all what you claim. The "dodgy" can be excluded, there are 16 more. FkpCascais (talk) 00:23, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I thought it quite did; anyway, I've replied there. If there are 16 more, than why did you pick two dodgy one and two that can at least be read as being against you? Seems like a poor choice of "best sources to present", if you ask me. LjL (talk) 00:26, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

This user went there and made clear missquotations, anyone can go and see the sources and see what she wrote. The "dodgy" one are from a university professor. But thank you for your input. FkpCascais (talk) 00:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

That assumes we find the argument based on those other sources to be based on an accurate reading of those sources. Sadly, I have only seen proof to the contrary. (Plus many walls of text that I really don't have time to wade through.) --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:23, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse Partly endorse Fully endorse close, I can see now that the RfC likely got so long and involved because of waters getting murky due to complicated interactions, but that consensus was reached through, among other things, acceptably solid assessment of the sources provided. LjL (talk) 00:49, 18 October 2015 (UTC) However, there is at least space for reviewing the apparent decision to drop any mention of change in constitutional status: it factually happened, whether or not the statuses were clearly defined in the old or new Constitutions. LjL (talk) 00:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC) This has to end now, too many editors have been victims of the windmill fighting and it's quibbling over a tiny change in wording that may or may not have happened in a Constitution. End it already. LjL (talk) 01:13, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

An endorse coming from a person who went there saying one source says "Constitution did not really change the position of Serbs in Croatia" when the source says "Some will certainly argue that the provision contaiined in the 1990 Croatian Constitution did not really change the position of the Serbs in Croatia as in the...". Like you really didnt saw the begining of the sentence that changes quite a lot everything, didnt you? This user did the same with the other exemples, anyone can go and check it. Lying like this in order to influence AN report should be sanctioned hard. FkpCascais (talk) 00:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

If you feel I should be sanctioned, the you should probably report me at WP:ANI. I do concur with urging people to check at least the four sources given, and whether they tend to present Serb loss of rights as established fact or as their view. LjL (talk) 12:17, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I will not loose time making a separate report on you. After all in my long experience here I have seen often users making fake claims in reports in order to manipulate the outcome (I indeed find en.wiki too permissive regarding this). It is an old strategy done in other to make the other side loose time and write about your false claims and in the end the thread is clutered and an idea of a clear case is replaced by an impression how it is complicated and makes possible involvment of neutral admins less probable. Your fake quotation of the sources are here, and your immediate rush to come here and influence the outcome with your false assesment is here as well. So an admin can see exactly what sources say and what you wrote there. I will leave it to them. Thank you. FkpCascais (talk) 15:48, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Meanwhile, your two attempts to silence the fact there is debate about your wording are noted, and I sent a stern warning to stop removing tags and edit warring like that. LjL (talk) 16:28, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Fkp, you should ask yourself if it is likely that LjL, an editor of over 10 years here is "lying" to subvert the truth, or if perhaps they are just interpreting the sources differently than you. The information is not as cut and dry and you seem to think, there is certainly room for contrary interpretations to yours. I know you have been dealing with a very disruptive single purpose account/ip/sock in this subject, but it does not serve you or anyone else to assume bad faith about well established editors.

I semi-protected the page to stop the edit warring from the IP. If I see further edit warring I have no desire to full-protect the page, so please don't edit war. HighInBC 16:32, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I was initially slightly leaning towards FkpCascais's views as there were certain statements by RfC closer AlbinoFerret that I had found concerning about the way consensus may have been determined, but then things quickly deteriorated after I tried to make an analysis of the particular sources that FkpCascais presented for this review. I did, in fact, misread one quotation (which, I've got to say, doesn't really change my overall assessment of those four sources), and FkpCascais immediately jumped the gun claiming that I had done that intentionally. That is not the case. I likely haven't edited a single article about ex-Yugoslavian countries before, I don't live in any of those countries, and I can't see why I might intrinsically have a prejudice aginst FkpCascais' point of view. LjL (talk) 16:45, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

HighInBC, they could be Christ in person, it doesnt change the fact that:

They say

- "Constitution did not really change the position of Serbs in Croatia"

when what the source says is the following:

- "Some will certainly argue that the provision contaiined in the 1990 Croatian Constitution did not really change the position of the Serbs in Croatia as in the... However, .. What does this mean? It means primarely that Serbs in Croatia have been down-graded from nation to national minority, or to use a new European euphemism - an ethnic community."

Can be seen here. Why did they removed just part of one sentence and firmly claim it says that, when by seing the rest of the sentence and the paragraph it is clear that it is very different what the author is saying. HighInBC, they didnt saw the rest of the sentence? They decontextualised the wording in accident?

Another case, for this source they said:

- "plainly says "Though granting equal rights to the Serbs and other nationalities, the 1990 constitution did not grant the Serbs the status of constituent nation of the republic". This is claiming that the change of status did not have any impact on their rights, which appears to directly contradict your claim."

Please, I am reading the page, how did they get their conclusion, please if they can explain. FkpCascais (talk) 18:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• Gentleman, LjL is continuing to openly and now clearly lie at the discussion there. Please help. If this is a political matter and my wording needs to be removed, just say it, but tell me so I should know. FkpCascais (talk) 21:41, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse close. If people don't like it they are free to ask better and more focussed questions. This RfC was a mess, and AlbinoFerret did a pretty decent job of drawing out something approaching a conclusion. Guy (Help!) 21:53, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• I actually started a new section with more focused and distinct questions now, as I suspect that, despite FkpCascais's somewhat scorching ways, they may still have a point about part of the issue (I must, however, state the obvious, namely that this is not another RfC, which I couldn't possibly start after the first one has been closed and is being reviewed). LjL (talk) 21:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• No, dont pretend to be sudenly "good" now, you just blatantly lied about the content of the sources clearly twisting them in the ugliest way ever. I am out, you all do whatever you want, remove my text and ignore the 20 sources. Just remember, people around the world still have the books to read where everything I edited is said. Hide it here on our article, OK, I am not going to continue to fight for a free and just Wikipedia, obviously there are higher political interests and there is no real interess on behalve of no one to see what is really going on here. I am out. FkpCascais (talk) 22:03, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse a close. Calling that mess an RFC would be a taking an extremely liberal view of RFC. As Guy says, if there is significant disagreement with the close a new RFC should be run with properly formed questions, and perhaps without FkpCascais's histrionics. Blackmane (talk) 02:09, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

• {{Do not archive until}} added. Please remove the {{Do not archive until}} tag after the review is closed. (I am adding this because RfC closure reviews frequently have been archived prematurely without being resolved.) Cunard (talk) 01:23, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Final note

This is my edit and here is the list with even more sources backing my text. This is a highly politicized matter because it may imply Croatian governament had a slight share of guilt for the ugly events that happend there at that period. But it is prefered to hide it despite being mentioned in all those books, I will not involve myself more, I dont even know what was I thinking in first place to get involved, I am not a nationalists I have a happy life, I faced alone an entire group, and it was that feeling of justice that drove me there. I will edit other things I enjoy, if anyone wants to see what happened here, I left here the links, if not, I will not care anymore. FkpCascais (talk) 22:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I will just leave a note that LjL blatantly lied on the discussion and here on the report. Behaviors like those should be sanctioned hard. It is not the first time I see that on reports, WP would really benefit with creating a rule that would sanction this. Thank you all, best regards, FkpCascais (talk) 22:18, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Just so I know, how many more times will you complain about me "lying" ("through my teeth" or not) before you stop being blinded about your by-now-obvious rage about this topic? It's a shame, because right from the start I've been sympathetic to parts of your position and have tried to distinguish between them and the parts that seemed quite dubious, but you've only got angrier and angrier. Oh well. LjL (talk) 22:29, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I dont have any rage, I dont care anymore. Everyone can see what you said sources say and what they actually say. You lied as good as you can. Someone doing that certainly has no good intentions, can only pretend to have, just as the entire pharse of your initial involvment here. I can totaly demonstrate how you lied if necessary. Feel good about what you did, I am out, goodbye. FkpCascais (talk) 22:36, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Also, someone who reported me for edit-warring would have certainly report me for calling them a lier. You didnt even if the acusations of lying I made you happend before. You didnt because you know if you reported me for that, your lies would have been scrutinised and you would be caught. FkpCascais (talk) 22:46, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I didn't because I have no real motivation to be particularly upset at any perceived personal attacks, and also because your statements were made in places like this very noticeboard, which is full of administrators looking at them, who can make of them what they will. LjL (talk) 22:49, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

FkpCascais your continued assumptions of bad faith are getting out of hand. LjL does not deserve to be treated this way just because they are taking a contrary point of view. You are rapidly entering the territory of WP:AN where attentions turns around to you. If you cannot discuss this content dispute without resorting to accusations against those who disagree with you then I suggest you avoid it. HighInBC 22:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Why dont we see then exactly if they lied or not? FkpCascais (talk) 23:04, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Cause lets not pretend it is not important. First they lie about what a source is saying. And no, it is not a slight missinterpretation, but aa total lie, turning 180 degrees what the source says and what they write it says. And then based on the lie about the ource, they build up more lies such as "There are contradicting sources". So you are saying I should ignore it? If so, if we are condoning lies, I am out, I have nothing to discuss there then, if one side can cheat by lying why to bother? Also, I told here that I am out, so I dont know why are you saying then all that. If you want to see if they lied, OK, if not, I am out. Will always be here for any clarifications if asked by an admin. FkpCascais (talk) 23:16, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, I mixed-up one source and LjL recognised she missread another. I hope we can now go trough the sources and confirm what they say and find the most neutral wording as possible. FkpCascais (talk) 05:15, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Please close this

Looks like the discussion has died, would an admin please close this section. AlbinoFerret 13:24, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I will point out FWIW that discussion is ongoing (in a somewhat haphazard manner) at the talk page, and the RfC's resolution has in my assessment remained dead letter. LjL (talk) 13:27, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I will point out that discussions and such after the close cant have an impact on the close itself in a review. If other discussions or RFC's present new consensus thats fine, but has no impact on the closer at the time of close. AlbinoFerret 18:40, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I will point out that I was just sayin'. LjL (talk) 19:31, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Let me be clearer: I wasn't disagreeing that this review should be closed (endorsing the RfC close, certainly), just pointing out as possibly-visible-final-words that the huge can of worm hasn't stopped leaking yet anyway. LjL (talk) 00:37, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks LjL, you have really tried to solve the issues on that page after the close. AlbinoFerret 01:26, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Inconsistency in instructions regarding reporting vandalism

Hi all, Wikipedia:Requests for administrator attention says: Block a vandal or spammer who has been sufficiently warned? Visit Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. However, the latter page says The warnings must have been given recently and the users must be active now [...]. Now I'm confused where to report vandals that have received a final warning and after that vandalized again (so they may need to be blocked), but are not urgent cases (usually there are 1 or more days between acts of vandalism). Gap9551 (talk) 16:12, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

The rationale for insisting on warnings and edits being recent is that IP addresses may be reassigned to different people, so if a warning was left some time ago it may have been left for someone else and if an IP is blocked for edits made some time ago then innocent users may be affected. This doesn't apply to registered vandals, so if you've got one of those then I'd say go ahead and report it. (The instructions used to say that this rule only applied to unregistered editors, but it looks like someone removed it without explanation.) Hut 8.5 19:02, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I won't report this case then. Gap9551 (talk) 19:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Name change procedure query

At User talk:FusionWiki, I declined a request for unblocking as the name suggested appeared to represent a company. The request was made today by FusionWiki. I've just had it pointed out to me that the account started out as User:Fusion For Energy, and was softer blocked by @Edgar181: on the 16th. Then on the 19th, it was name changed by @Céréales Killer: while the account was still blocked. Is this the way that it's supposed to work now? What's happened to the 'suggest a name first' before unblocking to request the change? Peridon (talk) 15:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

• One of the joys of usernames now being global. The user was renamed globally via a request on meta, which neither involves nor impacts the local enwiki account's status, which remains blocked independently. FWIW, after the name change, the new name still violates WP:UPOL (so an unblock decline seems justified), and it should be explained exactly why to the user so he can be renamed again to something compliant with local enwiki policies so he can be locally unblocked on enwiki. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 16:00, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
  • This is a problem. I just chastised Céréales Killer yesterday (undeservedly, it seems) for doing this. So we have editors asking for user name changes somewhere not on en-wiki, being granted them in good faith, and then getting blocked or re-blocked because the new name doesn't meet en-wiki policy. Left hand, right hand. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:07, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I've posted an explanatory note for the 'victim' of this confusion. Peridon (talk) 16:12, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Hem... Hello all. I suggest an idea... Until an account is blocked because the name is not acceptable, it should be useful that this account will can not ask for renaming until he has not proposed an acceptable name... What is your opinion? I am sorry for the renaming of an unacceptable account name... but with the volume, sometimes, the click is not on the good button... I am not a number (talk) 17:03, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I think that should be 'when' not 'until', and 'proposed' not 'not proposed' (negatives work differently in English and French sometimes...). Peridon (talk) 17:25, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

L'anglais c'est pas toujours facile.... je compatis! I think what Céréales Killer is suggesting is that when an account is blocked for an unacceptable username, that it would be useful to disallow renaming requests until an acceptable name is proposed. The issue is that global renamers cannot reasonably be expected to take into account the individual username policies of the thousands of Wikimedia projects for ever rename request they handle. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:28, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

With global accounts we are going to have to accept that renames will take place to names that are not acceptable on enwiki. We remain free to block those accounts until such time as they are renamed to a name that does not violate our policy, but I do not think we can dictate what names are/aren't acceptable to global renamers. Otherwise we would create a de facto global username policy that is simply the most restrictive amalgamation of all projects' username policies. Perhaps a notice should be added to the meta rename request system warning that users need to check the name they are requesting complies with username policies on the project(s) they plan to edit - and that they may be blocked/remain blocked on local projects if the new username does not comply. WJBscribe (talk) 17:10, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

• RE to NeilN: It's not quite right-vs-left hand... it's a matter of global-level vs. local-level rules. This happens all the time across Wikimedia (when was the last time local projects were consulted before a MediaWiki update?) as well as in the real world (state-level laws clashing with municipal-level or federal-level ones). A username that is globally appropriate might still be inappropriate locally on some projects (enwiki or otherwise). ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:13, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
  • @Salvidrim: We know what's going on but to the user, it's all "Wikipedia". One person on Wikpedia says the name is okay, another person blocks me for it... --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:29, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

As the blocking admin, I don't have any problem with the unblock or the fact that the account was renamed on meta without addressing local username issues. It's just an issue we need to deal with on an individual basis as it arises (and it won't be all that often in relation to the total number of username blocks imposed). I like WJBscribe's suggestion about a notice in the meta rename request system - it may help make users aware of the potential complexities. As for the concept of "suggest a name first before unblocking to request the change", it's a good practice, but shouldn't be a requirement. At an admin's discretion, good faith unblock requests in order to make a username change request can be honored even if a suggested new username isn't specified first. -- Ed (Edgar181) 17:31, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Personally when uname-blocked users file a rename-and-unblock appeal (here or via UTRS), I always prefer requesting the rename on their behalf, seeing it completed, and only then unblocking the account. This avoids situations where you unblock and the user vanishes or never requests the rename. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 23:08, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

• • (edit conflict) I'm not suggesting a way round this, but do the renamers look at the reasons for blocking - or even look to see if there is a blocking situation involved? And what about the renaming (probably a small part of the load) in Wikipedias with peculiar languages that sometimes use peculiar scripts? If someone on the Upper Slobodian Wikipedia wants renaming to 'Grzichfrud si tse o mtriw sa', how will they know that it actually means 'I've screwed your mother'? Do they just very quickly accept whatever comes to them? Perhaps we could do with a few more of them in here to comment. (Don't ask me - I wouldn't know where to find them...) Peridon (talk) 17:37, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I often find that someone blocked for 'BloggsCo' will suggest 'BloggsCo Inc' as a new choice - just as bad (and sometimes worse). The vetting process saves having to reblock for an inappropriate (and sometimes obscene) name. Peridon (talk) 17:42, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Admin needs to close this

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

So, there's this RFC ongoing right now, and I'm thinking we need an admin close for this because the RFC is suggesting text be put in that would violate BLP (Essentially, editors are attempting to use circumstanial evidence in sources (read OR and SYNTH) to tie Anna Politkovskaya's murder to Putin. None of the sources make that claim, therefore, even if there is overwhelming consensus to add, it can't be done without violating BLP, therefore, the RFC can't and shouldn't be allowed to proceed. I've already voted, and am not an admin so I can't close it, so that's why I'm here. KoshVorlon 17:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, the main reason you can't close it is because you're involved. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 04:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

If the reliable sources state something and they find it relevant to state it concerning Anna Politkovskaya's murder, it is certainly most relevant to include it when talking about it, and not a violation of anything. LjL (talk) 17:22, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon, I'm sorry but you appear to be totally clueless about BLP policy. You also don't appear to actually understand the nature of the dispute and you haven't bothered to actually look at the sources. You are also (again!) misrepresenting both the sources and the editors who disagree with you. There is no SYNTH. There is no OR. There is no "tying Anna Politkovskaya's murder to Putin" (total nonsense on your part). The material is extremely well sourced - which is easy to do since every single source on the subject talks about it. Volunteer Marek  17:43, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi KoshVorlon. I think we last interacted on here when you were appealing a topic ban earlier in the year, and you very kindly agreed to adjust your signature when a few folks asked you to. That was kind of you. Anyway, the reason this "caught my eye" again was that I recall at the time you had an agreement with Floq about certain matters, including not nominating things for deletion, to avoid some sanctions. I couldn't find it when I looked for it today, so I had a quick search, and I guess you must have squared it all up with Floq, because you "hid" it for a while, then removed it here?

Anyway, I guess I'm just saying, in the light of stuff like this ill-judged request, this silly nomination, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Godwin's law, and the recent restriction/agreement, you might want to take it easy with stuff like this. Cheers. Begoon ^talk 15:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Begoon I think you mean this . It's a self-imposed set of restrictions, like hatting other people's posts. None of the restrictions include AFD, I'm not a real frequent poster over there anyhow. KoshVorlon 15:39, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

From your link: "Avoid starting deletion discussions of any kind (although I wouldn't say you can't participate in those started by others)" - from what you removed from your talkpage (my link): I am not to start deletion discussions of of any kind ( I may participate in thoose started by others).. Not sure how that meshes with None of the restrictions include AFD? It was my understanding the agreed restrictions were to prevent Floq pursuing sanctions. Still, you're at liberty to withdraw from voluntary restrictions at any time, obviously, and Floq is not around, so... I was just offering advice about how it can appear, that's all. Good luck. Begoon ^talk 16:08, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• The RfC is only four days old. RfCs run for 30 days unless they are withdrawn by the filer or unless they are unanimous SNOW cases. Recommend closing this thread as completely unwarranted, and to prevent a rehashing of the pros and cons on yet another page (besides the lengthy BLPN threads, the lengthy threads on the article[s] talk page[s], and at least one lengthy user talkpage thread). Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 15:51, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Category request

Can someone review my category request on Category:National Football League teams that finished 1-15 on the page Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects. --74.130.133.1 (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Not sure why you needed me to decline it right now; someone would have been along sooner or later to decline it anyways. But now that you know it won't be created, you can work on something else instead. --Jayron32 23:39, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Unblock an IP for training session

Hello, I am told I can ask the administrators page to unblock an IP for training so we can get more than the 6 people registered. I am running a training session at the African School of Excellence in Tsakane in Gauteng, South Africa. Please can you unblock this ip: 41.147.55.76 for the next 5 hours. Thanks Isla Haddow (talk) 07:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• The IP is unblocked. However, I have temporarily given your account only the "accountcreator" userright so you can create the additional accounts. I will remove it again after you have done so. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 08:03, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Review of rangeblocks for Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP

Events in the LTA case described above (recent sample case at User talk:190.49.60.251) have deteriorated to the point where rangeblocks are the only effective way of curbing disruption. These are being logged at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP#Known range blocks. So far, there has been broad consensus that these are acceptable, because they are "anon-only" blocks, so collateral damage can be avoided by creating an account (which this user refuses to do). However, I'm concerned that I can't really leave 6 long-term rangeblocks in place without reviewing it to the wider community, so that's why I'm here. Does anyone have any alternatives to how we might proceed? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Not opposed to the rangeblock, but is there an edit filter option to be tried? --Jayron32 22:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Agree that the edit filter is worth a shot. (Though I'm not opposed to rangeblocks. Sick of the guy.) Katie^talk 00:21, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

There is a filter - Special:AbuseFilter/667, though it is set to log-only as it generates too many false positives. If anyone wants to try and improve it (based on some Bayesian analysis of previous behaviour, perhaps?), go for it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

List of languages by number of native speakers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Sir, In the above article hindi is shown to be fourth spoken language in the world. This is reported that 290 million people speak hindi. This data is very old and is probably taken from 1991 census of Govt. of India. The same Govt. Of India Census 2001 declares that 422 million people in india reports hindi as their mother tongue. I quote "http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_Online/Language/Statement4.aspx". This is a verifiable source.The census 2001 is also an old data. Adding the fact that erstwhile India i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh is also having good percentage of people speaking Hindi. Nepal, Bhutan, Burma are the other countries where hindi is largely spoken.Further, the immigrants from India to U.S., U.K., Canada, Gulf countries , Australia and other countries also speak in hindi as their mother tongue. This data is not available but there is need of putting an effort to get this data. If the current data of Census 2001 is taken Hindi will be put on second place instead of fourth. I am trying this to edit but Thomas.W an editor is repeatedly trying to undone my effort without having any source of authentic data. He is also using scandalous and defamatory language. I don't mind that. However, a correct fact should be added to wikipedia to make it more reliable and authentic.--Rajatbindalbly (talk) 14:09, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• Swift WP:BOOMERANG A look at the talk page of the article, as well as Thomas.W's talk page makes it very clear that Rajatbindalbly is the problem. The user is pushing a ludicrous WP:OR-violation and the user's refusal to WP:HEAR has already become disruptive. By taking the POV-pushing to yet a third place, the user just ups their disruption even more. While not involved in the conflict, I already warned Rajatbindalbly that their behavior could lead to a block. There is nothing to discuss regarding Thomas.W (who has been very patient trying to explain policies to a truth warrior) or the article, but I suggest a block on Rajatbindalbly who is most certainly WP:NOTHERE to construct an encyclopaedia and whose actions is causing disproportionate disruption. Jeppiz (talk) 14:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
• This discussion on my talk page shows the extent of the problem. Rajatbindalbly isn't here to build an encyclopaedia but to get publicity for a self-published home-made "report" by a self-proclaimed "linguist", with a ludicrous claim that Hindi is spoken natively by 1.2-1.4 billion people around the world, including massive numbers in both the United States and Europe. And to show you how little he knows about Wikipedia and how things work in the real world I offer you these quotes from posts he has made at Talk:List of languages by number of native speakers: "If my request for updating the status of hindi language to at least 2nd position worldwide is not accepted I will ask The Prime Minister Office of Indian Govt. to take up the issue with Wikipedia and if Wikipedia dont agree to update I will also request The Prime Minister Office to Ban wikipedia in India for circulating false and scandalous material" from this post, and "Getting recognition internationally is also the job of PMO. Our P.M. Sri Narendra Modi is very particular on that. Also he will never ignore the request of a lawyer who speak only after doing original research" from this post. Thomas.W ^talk 15:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree on the above all except for my efforts for 1.2 billion people speaking hindi. I suspended my that version for future after doing more research.Presently I am fighting for 2nd place for hindi. The other editors do not have support to stop my claim. They are just trying to stop me unauthorisedly. Please refer to Arbitration in This matter. I am a qualified Lawyer and taking up the issue with verifiable source. Rajatbindalbly (talk) 15:10, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Rajatbindalbly, as a lawyer (be careful of WP:NLT by the way), you should know that "defamatory language" has legal implications. Please provide a diff backing up your accusation. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)As Rajatbindalbly confesses it's his/her own research, it's a clear case of WP:OR. The repeated lawyer talk, especially on the article talk page, brings WP:LEGAL to mind. As Thomas.W says, this user is not here to build an encyclopaedia, and is refusing to hear anyone else. I think an indef. block is the only solution here. Jeppiz (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• Rajatbindalbly links very "selectively", so instead of looking at the link in his first post in this thread I suggest you look at this link instead. It's the same official site, Census India 2001, but contains more information, and clearly shows that someone has confused Hindi, the language, with Hindustani languages, a whole group of related languages (like confusing German with Germanic languages), when writing the report, including 49 different languages under "Hindi". Unlike the page Rajatbindalbly selectively linked to the page I linked to lists the number of speakers for each of the 49 languages included under "Hindi", giving the true number of people in India who listed Hindi (the language) as their mother tongue in the 2001 census as 257 million, not 422 million. Thomas.W ^talk 16:21, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Please refer https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Thomas.W&action=edit&section=72, use of words such as 'bollocks' work of 'hobbyist', 'self proclaimed linguisthomemade wild theories' are the words which are very defamatory. However I do not want this page to be a discussion page. I have submitted my proposal to the administrators who are the right person to check the authenticity of my submission. Thomas.W is not an administrator on wikipedia.Rajatbindalbly (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Rajatbindalbly, but I am an administrator and you should know statements of opinions are not defamatory. The only action that will be taken is sanctions against you if you don't WP:DROPTHESTICK. Keep to discussing content and refrain from hyperbole and wild predictions of your P.M.'s interest. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:35, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I tried to be polite, but Rajatbindalbly just went on and on, and clearly didn't want to listen. "Bollocks", or to be more precise "utter bollocks", sums up my impression of the home-made self-published "report" (available for download from their personal web site), which includes totally unsubstantiated hyperbole like "I have been able to prove conclusively through my research that Hindi is not only the most spoken langage globally but the most preferred language too" (no, he hasn't), "It is an irrefutable fact that 'in the global arena Hindi is the most favoured language'. This has found acceptance with a majority of linguists" (no, it hasn't) and "Another aspect which backs this theory is the fact that our Hon'ble Prime Minister Mr Narendra Modi addressed many countries and the UN in Hindi. People around the globe listened to this address avidly. Point to be noted is that this programme was globally broadcasted in Hindi as a mark of respect for Mr Modi. The aura and magic of Hindi is not limited just to India or its neighbouring states but is spreading..." (and so on ad nauseam). The very amateurish report also includes claims about the author having 28 academic degrees/diplomas (including two doctors' degrees...), having written 55 books and being an expert at virtually everything, yet he works as a deputy manager in a bank, and a search on Google returns only a Youtube-channel and the usual social web sites, but nothing substantial. A draft article about him was also declined in 2013 for lack of notability, and the only mention of him on Wikipedia was the name added to a list by an IP in India a couple of weeks ago, a name I removed both because of there being no article about him and because the IP also included a link to his personal web site in order to promote him. Making all of this just a big time sink. Thomas.W ^talk 17:24, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, no, Thomas.W your link is to a mirror site while Draft:Jayanti Prasad Nautiyal still exists on Wikipedia. Editors can read about his credentials on the draft article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:50, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: You mean "editors can read what he claims his credentials are". The draft has been declined three times now (13 and 19 October 2013 and 15 September 2014) for not having any sources at all, other than his own web site. And there still isn't a single reliable source that supports any of his claims. Have you checked the "report"? Long lists of numbers (such as claiming that 90% of the population of Maharashtra, one of the most populous states in India, with a population of 112M, speak Hindi when the correct figure is 11%) with no information about what any of it is based on, just expecting us, and everyone else, to take his word for it. Just like he expects us to take his word for everything in the draft article about him. Thomas.W ^talk 22:22, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I was just sharing that Wikipedia had a draft article on the "linguist expert", I know it is only sourced to his own website and I don't take his credentials seriously. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Level II desysop of Yngvadottir

For reversing an arbitration enforcement block out of process, Yngvadottir (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is desysoped. They may only regain adminship after a successful RfA.

Supporting: Courcelles, Thryduulf, Seraphimblade, Guerillero, Salvio giuliano, LFaraone

Opposing: None

Recusing: GorillaWarfare

Inactive: AGK, Euryalus, Roger Davies, DeltaQuad

For the Arbitration Committee, Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 21:13, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Level II desysop of Yngvadottir

Baseball Bug directing verbal abuse at another contributor.

What happened to the Four Pillars? If you're Baseball Bugs, forget the third. I'm appalled and dismayed at his conduct towards another valued contributor. This is the edit I refer to :

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AReference_desk&type=revision&diff=687188630&oldid=687138325

Can I please ask that an admin review this situation, and recommend an appropriate punishment i.e edit ban.

Thank you. Anon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.151.127.78 (talk) 22:59, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Clear as mud. Please try and describe this abuse because I'm not seeing it.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:18, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

A tempest in a teapot from an IP in a rather disruptive range who was not involved in the discussion. Trolling? Mebbe. BMK (talk) 01:28, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I'll admit that this wasn't exactly the warmest sentiment on Bugs' part, but hmmm...a brand-spanking new IP's very first edit just happens to be at AN? Quack, quack, quack... (BTW, IP, it's five pillars, not four.) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:38, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Author deletion request

Could an Admin please take a look at this request Talk:USA Masters Diving 2010 Spring Indoor - Athens, GA. Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 23:53, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

In the future, just put {{db-author}} on them. BMK (talk) 01:32, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt and Jayen466

Notwithstanding other restrictions on his editing, Cirt (talk · contribs) may edit the article Typewriter in the Sky, its talk page, and pages related to a peer review, good article or featured article candidacy for the article. This exemption may be revoked by any uninvolved administrator as an arbitration enforcement action should Cirt fail to adhere to Wikipedia editing standards while editing under the exemption. Appeal of such a revocation would be through the normal arbitration enforcement appeals process.

For the Arbitration Committee Amortias (T)(C) 01:57, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Original announcement

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt and Jayen466

Twinkle's "Deli-batch" module will be removed

On or after 31 October, Twinkle's "Deli-batch" (batch image deletion) module will be removed. Its functionality has been available from "D-batch" (the regular batch deletion module) for some time. By removing "Deli-batch", the size of the Twinkle JavaScript code will decrease by 6% for all users of Twinkle (not just admins).

If you have any questions, or wish to request a stay of execution, please post at WT:TW. Thanks, — This, that and the other (talk) 12:21, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Jaguars

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Anyone who is a Jaguars fan or knowns about the NFL International Series, please look at my request at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Entertainment. --74.130.133.1 (talk) 14:46, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

my archieve page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please semi protect my archieve talk page as its per my request. --74.130.133.1 (talk) 16:28, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

For at least 1 month. --74.130.133.1 (talk) 16:29, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

If that page is semi-protected you will be unable to edit it, since you are an IP editor. I would recommend that you create an account, so it can be uniquely, and personally your own account. With an anonymous account, such as you're using currently, if your IP address was to change, you would cease to be associated with anything under that IP address. I would suggest you see these two articles What IP Users cannot do and Why create an account — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiggerjay (talk • contribs) 19:58, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Then I wont need it that way. Closing. --74.130.133.1 (talk) 22:49, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC: administrator election reform

The RfC at Wikipedia:2015 administrator election reform/Phase I/RfC looks like it is going to be close on several questions, and there is a high probability that multiple editors will dispute any closing comments. Might I suggest two or three experienced admins work together on writing up the closing? --Guy Macon (talk) 17:07, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

AIV backlog

Could someone please clear out the backlog at WP:AIV, Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Karen Briggs (musician) might be a was copyright violation

Karen Briggs (musician) doesn't have any sources. While I was looking for sources to put in, I noticed that the text was the same, word for word, with an article from the Diva Foundation. The original article is gone, but there's a 2007 archived copy. At first I thought that the Diva Foundation article was a copy of the Wikipedia article, since the Diva Foundation archive is dated 2007 and the article was started, with much of the copied content, in 2006. However the first version of the article gives the Diva Foundation as a source.

I'm not sure what the best course of action is. I'd be happy to re-write the article (I was planning to anyways), but does it need to be done from scratch, or do the copied parts get deleted, or am I reading this all wrong and it's the Diva Foundation that's the copyvio.

Oh, also, this article is clearly a copy-paste of the Wikipedia article (the link is from this August), so is there a template to mark that source as a copyright violation of Wikipedia? The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 18:05, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

For the copyright issue, I think a rewrite will serve here - there is still some similarity. Regarding Meekospark.com putting a {{Backwardscopy}} on the talk page should suffice - the fact that the first version of our article is highly dissimilar to the meekospark.com article while the current version is very similar supports the idea that meekospark's a copy from Wikipedia. Asking for assistance on Wikipedia:Copyright problems may help.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:48, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Jo-Jo Eumerus. I completely re-wrote the article, and this time it's even got citations. Should anything be done about the old versions of the article? I also changed the section title in case someone sees it and deletes the article without realizing that it's been fixed. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 00:08, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but Revision deletion may be appropriate here. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:33, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Good catch, The Squirrel Conspiracy! As you can see, some of the content was also present here, quite definitely before our article was created. I've requested revdeletion. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:09, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Justlettersandnumbers. I'd really like to know how you found that serve.com source, though. It would have been useful when I was re-writing the article, and I thought that I found every source there was to find. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Unblock of Billy Hathorn in 2013

I may be right off track here, but here goes. This is further to a discussion that began at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2015 August 7 in relation to the article Timothy Dwight Hobart. I've no first-hand knowledge of the history, but, as I understand it:

• A CCI for Billy Hathorn, requested by cmadler, was opened on 27 July 2011; it now has about 4800 articles outstanding, or some 7% of our total backlog of 72,000.
• The user was indeffed for copyright violations and BLP issues by Ironholds on 29 September 2011,
• repeatedly evaded the block by socking,
• and was unblocked by Amalthea on 27 April 2013 with the comment "not effective"; Amalthea later wrote "a bazillion edits that should really have been looked at as part of the CCI are now untrackable for us".

I believe that two questions arise, one small and one large:

1. Is there community consensus that Hathorn should be free to edit here? (please see below for my comment)
2. What, if anything, could or should be done to prevent the sort of abuse that led Amalthea to make that unblock decision? Are we interested in finding ways of dealing better and more robustly with this sort of thing?

To be clear: I'm not criticising, in any way, anyone who tried, or anything that was done, to contain this problem – it seems to have been just a mass of work for a lot of people. I'm merely asking for comment. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Hathorn is still violating copyrights and denying that there is a problem – please see my comments here and at Talk:Susan Pamerleau; also this edit. Yes, the copyvio in that article is not very extensive; nor is it negligible. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

My impression from reading that unblock reason is it happened because the block didn't stop the copyvios, instead causing block evasion that a) negates the effectiveness of the block and b) makes it harder to track the problem edits. Basically, "The block merely makes it harder to track the copyvios since they still happen through sockpuppets, but it doesn't stop them". Imma think on this.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:50, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

The problem with the unblock is that no one has been monitoring the user, and no one should be expected to have to monitor the user, checking their every edit to make sure it's copyright compliant. This is beyond the scope of what we can expect of our volunteers, even those who are interested in helping with copyright clean-up. If someone is violating the terms of use, which includes a statement that we are obliged to engage in "Lawful Behavior – You do not violate copyright or other laws", then they should be blocked. Perhaps a checkuser could monitor for socks and block them as they appear. Hopefully the editor would quit socking at some point if all their socks were blocked and all their edits were reverted. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Question- What proportion of their edits, rough percentage wise, might be considered copy vios? Blackmane (talk) 21:48, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I had spot-checked his edits in the months after the unblock, but only for a while, of course :/
Considering all circumstances I remain convinced that the unblock was the right move to make, even though the comparison from Talk:Susan Pamerleau shows that the problems and fundamental misconceptions from back then still exist two years later.
If there are questions I should answer I'll do my best.
Amalthea 22:31, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm strongly leaning toward reblocking him indefinitely. We shouldn't reward a socker by unblocking him! Sure, unblocking a helpful-but-socking user might occasionally be beneficial, but it would be absurd to say "You're unstoppable with your socking and copyright-infringing, so we give up and unblock you", and I don't see a big difference between that and the reason for unblocking him. Users who repeatedly flout our policies need to be shown the door, and especially in cases of recidivism after the removal of an indefinite block: get indeffed for a good reason, get unblocked, and start up the bad behavior — why should we believe anything you say? Why shouldn't we just revert, block, ignore you? Amalthea, I'm willing to be convinced that I'm wrong and that you're right. Would you mind giving us more extensive reasons and trying to convince me that the unblock was the right move to make? Nyttend (talk) 00:02, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

While I appreciate very much Justlettersandnumbers trying to drive this towards a solution (we need one), I also feel the need to speak up to explain the situation that Amalthea was dealing with here. :) The unblock was not intended as a reward, I know; it was simply an end-of-the-rope attempt to find a solution when traditional measures demonstrably weren't working. Transparency was chosen in preference to what we were then dealing with. Keeping up with Billy's socks was a massive time-consumer, and as best as I remember I spent quite a bit of time and energy on RBI myself. (I use it heavily when dealing with block evading serial copyright infringers, even now.) I would have much rather Amalthea had produced a magic wand and found a way to stop the issue, but can't fault him for failing to do so. No more could I. :( At the time Billy was unblocked, his socks were not demonstrating the copyvio pattern he had previously shown in the swathe of articles I spot-checked, but it's not possible to say definitely they weren't happening. Unfortunately, it's massively time consuming to check for those, and material may be missed. Additionally, I have no doubt there are many socks that were never identified.

Basically, I think Amalthea's decision - while not the solution one would hope for - was pragmatic. We could not effectively block him, and his edits were likely to escape review. Making them transparent meant the ability to at least review them, while the fragmented accounts and IPs he was using previously were difficult to review at all. Given that years after his initial block, he still doesn't get it - and by his note on Talk:Susan Pamerleau doesn't really seem to even understand the issue - I think Billy remains a problem. But if he is indefinitely blocked again, I think it will require some creativity to enforce it, since it's hard to know how technical measures could be brought to bear here. I don't think one or two people trying to WP:RBI can make a difference. :( --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 02:29, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I had a look over the SPI page and grasp the enormity of the problem. I'd really like to see what @Billy Hathorn: has to say about this and, if it's not a satisfactory explanation, don't see why a site ban with the application of the nuclear option should not be considered. If one cannot trust all, then one must suspect all. Blackmane (talk) 02:45, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

with respect to detecting the contributions if he resumes socking, his ordinary choice of subject and manner of writing is highly distinctive. We may not be able to block him no matter what he may turn his hand to, but we can block him in this field at least. The material his socks added was on the customary subject in the customary manner. I'm not ay sure an unblock such as the one in question here is ever justified: I tend to think not, but I don't want to rule out there might be some justified case. If it ever is done in such a case, I think it would warrant prior discussion. For this case, the detectability of the contributions forces me to the conclusion that it was an unblock that should not have been done, even on the basis of the evidence at the time, not just because of the subsequent copyvios. Even the best active admin make errors. But if it is not agreed that an unblock in such circumstances takes great caution and discussion, we will need a policy saying so. MRG? Amalthea? DGG ( talk ) 04:46, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

It's been a couple of years and memory is fallible, but I think it's worth noting that this situation was a bit more complex than "This isn't working; let's just let him disrupt under his main account so we can see it." (Although transparency was a major factor.) Blocking Billy in the first place was the right call. He repeatedly violated various policies related to content and was absolutely unwilling to change his editing behaviors no matter who called him on it or how it was explained. But from a copyright standpoint, Billy was not one of those people who copy-pastes wholesale from sources that I recall; his taking often may not rise to substantial similarity (although only a judge could make that determination). It's more a matter of close paraphrasing brief runs from his sources in a manner that is clearly plagiarism as Wikipedia defines it and as most Western academicans would. This kind of writing does constitute a "copyvio" as a violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy, because we require that, except for clearly marked quotations, creative content from your sources be written in your own words (oversimplifying, but basically true). However, a spot-check prior to the unblocking had not shown copying issues in his sock contributions, and he was not (as best as I recall) violating BLP anymore by citing himself or unreliable blogs.

Dealing with his socks, especially socks who might otherwise not be violating policy, was disruptive in itself. The nuclear option has collateral damage beyond the time it requires for a user to go through and rollback, especially the longer it takes you to discover the sock. Other contributors waste their time polishing the work of banned editors and are not particularly happy when you roll back an article to an earlier state without at least being able to demonstrate that the content itself was wrong. Demonstrating that the content itself is wrong is essentially compressing the time it takes to do a CCI. (As an aside, Billy's CCI has been edited a grand total of 31 times in the four years it has been opened. Conducting CCIs is hard. Conducting it on an editor like this one? Doubly hard.) Doing this with dozens of socks and IPs - especially where the issues that led to the original block did not then seem to be a factor - was disrupting the project in itself.

After his unblock, both Amalthea and I reviewed Billy's contributions for a time. (See User_talk:Billy_Hathorn/Archive_20#Copyright_issue for one issue found as I was still following him four months after the unblock - it proved to be an old issue reinstated; the next section demonstrates Amalthea's continued engagement as well.) This was not intended to be a throwing in the towel, but another approach to prevent disruption. It wasn't the best solution and quite probably not the right solution. But it was also not a unilateral overthrow of a community ban; it was a single admin choosing to unblock a user, as we do all the time. And it was done with caution.

I don't have much more time right now, but I will note that as I recall there is another potential way to deal with this kind of thing that was not thought of at the time. I can't remember this guy's name at the moment, but we dealt with a person who was copy-pasting content into, I think, sports article where we used a bot to blank or revert his content and place a template asking people who wanted to restore it review it for copy-pasting and annotate their findings on a list. Something like that might be a way to work with cases like this - where the person who is following the trail of a blocked serial copyright infringer doesn't have to manually review and revert each edit and the community can be mobilized in assisting. User:MER-C, do you remember that case? I'll look for it later if nobody else does. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:59, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Post family lunch outing, I have remembered: Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Darius Dhlomo, with the considerable assistance of User:Uncle G. This was an extreme case, and I wouldn't really want to use it for every CCI case, but for serial copyright infringing sock puppeteers, it might be the way to go. It also, honestly, might be judiciously used to diminish some of the mounting backlog at WP:CCI. Having a couple of people who whittle away at this monumental task is misusing their time. Perhaps if violations exceed a certain threshold, it's an alternative we should consider. (User:Wizardman, User:Diannaa - thoughts on that idea? Is it crazy, or something we might want to propose more formally?) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:19, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I feel the nuclear option is appropriate whenever there is sockpuppetry involved. MER-C 19:38, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Knowing all their contribs will be reverted might serve to deter the violator from socking. This is why I typically remove all sock contribs, regardless of their value. Bot removal of edits might be a worthwhile option for the cases that are otherwise unsolvable due to sources not being provided, or the sources being inaccessible and uncheckable. FYI, the backlog currently contains 152 cases and 72,239+ articles, up from 142 cases and 71,258+ articles on this same date a year ago (14 cases were closed, but 24 new cases were added, and at least one case was substantially expanded). -- Diannaa (talk) 20:17, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Might I also suggest that the foundation should contract some paid employees to work on copyright clean-up? The current system of expecting volunteers to clean up over 150 CCI cases containing 72,000 articles and hundreds of thousands of diffs is obviously not realistic, as the backlog continues to grow. Some cases have been sitting unexamined for over five years. --Diannaa (talk) 00:06, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

It's difficult for me to know which account to use to answer this, Diannaa. :) This is volunteer mode, and I haven't consulted anyone else about this, but basically my understanding has always been that the Foundation can't do this. There's a critical separation between being an online service provider and a content provider. The laws that govern the former are quite different from those govern the latter, as the former has safe harbors that the latter does not receive. If we lost that safe harbor, it has always been my belief that the entire model of the movement would have to change, as individual editors would no longer be solely legally responsible for laws they violate on our sites. We go well and above legal requirements in addressing copyright concerns on Wikipedia, and obviously I'm for that, since I have spent so much time doing it. :) But I fear that losing OCILLA would of necessity make open-editing obsolete. Again, this is my opinion as a volunteer. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:14, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The Timothy Dwight Hobart article is now a one-paragraph shell. The article was not a copyright violation. Someone claimed there was too much following closely from tshaonline. That material was corrected months ago. Yet the article was gutted to one paragraph will all the references for that paragraph. It began on the board in 2008.

The Susan Pamerleau article was said to have followed too closely from her campaign website. This too was corrected: there were three claims, very minor, all further scrambled. Sheriff Pamerleau's PR person gave permission to lift the copyright from her campaign site, but administrators here said the permission is invalid. At any rate, there is no copyright violation. One should read the article entirely. It was on a temporary page if one can find it. Thank you. Billy Hathorn (talk) 04:00, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• Indef. I believe action(s) executed WRT this situation were made in an honest effort to correctly address the issue. The admin(s) previously involved have my full confidence. Tiderolls 06:36, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• Indef. To do otherwise would tell users (especially the sneaky-disruption type, such as massive copyvioes) that if they sock enough, we will unblock them. Enforce, as needed, with rangeblocks, checkuser checks on accounts, and possibly (if applicable) edit filters. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:29, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• Indef per Old Misheu, and the editor's completely unconvincing denial above. BMK (talk) 08:37, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• Indef, unquestionably. Unblocking someone because they're using sockpuppets seems like it was a pretty bad idea -- I don't see how it made him easier to catch, since nothing stopped him from using a sock to post all his copyvios while using the original account for normal editing. Additionally, even if keeping up with his socks is a lot of work, it is work that is necessary as long as he's still posting copyvios (and as far as I can tell, he never even agreed to stop.) Banning a sock also makes it easier to remove possible copyvios, because it means that everything he posted with that sock can be summarily reverted as an edit by a banned user, without having to determine exactly what the copyvio is -- it shifts the burden of proof for keeping or reinstating one of his edits on to whoever wants to keep it (or, at least, it requires that an editor in good standing have enough confidence in the edit to be willing to accept responsibility for it), which, I think, is a reasonable thing to do when someone has enough of a history of copyvios to get permanently banned. --Aquillion (talk) 11:48, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• Indef: It may well take a lot of time to enforce against socks, but it undoubtedly also takes a lot of time to monitor and correct the significant copyright violations. Given that both paths are time consuming, a block seems preferable as it shows that Wikipedia is actually willing to enforce its own policies. Champaign Supernova (talk) 19:47, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

At this point, he should not only be banned, but I wonder if there's a way to nuke his edits. He's made so many that it would be very difficult to do and it's not something I would normally condone, but he's been so disruptive for so long that his edits will be impossible to clean up otherwise. I also did a cursory check on the Hobart article mentioned, and if he seriously thinks that wasn't copyvio then an indef block and ban is the only solution. MRG notes above that we've nuked once before, and it may in fact be the only solution. Wizardman 20:46, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support ban and the nuclear option in this case. Miniapolis 22:29, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support ban and nuking per Wikipedia:Copyright violations#Addressing contributors. MER-C 10:36, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
• I don't know why this is not at ANI. Infinite ban against and usage of Special:Nuke on this user. Repeated, long-time copyright issues.--Müdigkeit (talk) 10:45, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Müdigkeit, I brought this here rather than to ANI because (a) it isn't an incident but a long-term problem and (b) it's an (un)block review, as mentioned under "Issues appropriate for this page" in the instructions above. If I was wrong I apologise. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:44, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Müdigkeit, I think it's probably not just about this user but about this kind of issue, which happens to have a specific case at its core. The two are intertwined. I think this is probably the right place. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:14, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• Happy to go for an indef in this case, but are we seriously going to nuke, which means delete every article he's created? Surely a solution like in the Darius Dhlomo case where pages were blanked until they were reviewed would be better. Jenks24 (talk) 10:53, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with you, Jenks24. Nuking his subsequent sock edits is one thing, but the nuke solution now could be quite damaging. For context (this link will expire), he has contributed significantly in his editing career under this account to over 9,000 articles. Since his unblocking, over 4,500. I do not know (as was asked above) what percentage of these will be problems, but I suspect that there will be many which are not. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:14, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Edward Sims Van Zile

Resolved

 – Attributed on En WP, note on the talk pages of both projects, explanation to user who transwikiied the content without requisite attribution. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 03:20, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The article Edward Sims Van Zile was created by copy and pasting the article I created in my userspace User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Edward Sims Van Zile into mainspace by another editor without proper attribution. Can someone merge the edit histories so that I show up with the creation of the article? Then I can delete my userspace version. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:06, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

It was not copied from your sandbox, but from Simple English Wikipedia; it reflects material authored by people other than you, Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ). I will make sure proper attribution to the Simple English Wikipedia is supplied and speak to the user about how this is done. Your sandbox version is not needed, as you are attributed for your contributions on Simple. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 02:53, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

This is a general question about transwikied articles. When I copy sections of one en.wiki article to another one, I always add the "copied" template, which puts up a banner saying that the source article now serves as attribution for the receiving article and should not be deleted. However, we have no authority over other wikis, so we have no way of ensuring that the source article -- in the current case on simple.wiki -- is deleted, which would leave our article unattributed, which I believe is a copyright problem for us. How do we deal with this? BMK (talk) 03:37, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

That's a good question, I'd never really thought about it. I suppose the edits could be imported if necessary? Jenks24 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:32, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

We can also do a complete list of all authors on the talk page. As long as it's pointed to in edit summary, it meets all requirements for attribution in accordance with our Terms of Use §7(b)(iii). --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:43, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Nope, no chance: for whatever reason that I don't understand, import only works with a few other wikis, and simple: isn't one of them. Perhaps it would simply work to dump a list of authors into the talk page and add a link to it? Nyttend (talk) 14:44, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Here's a question asked out of ignorance: is there any way to transclude the simple article's history to our talk page? Or perhaps cutting-and-pasting the history up to the point of the transwiking would be sufficient, even though there would be no links to each contributors edit? BMK (talk) 21:54, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Cutting & pasting works fine. Per my link above, a list of authors is sufficient, even without links to each contributor's edit. Every editor agrees to this when they hit save. :) We used to do this routinely with copyright cleanup, before the days of rev deletion. In the case of this particular article, I did the same thing there that we do on local wiki articles - put a note on the talk page explaining why the history needs to be retained. But this is a cross-article issue, and it would be great if we could do this - and especially if we had some way to automate this. Then we'd never have to worry about deletion anywhere. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:09, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I *could* do an import from the Simple English Wikipedia because I can do importupload on this wiki, but I don't really like doing imports in cases like this, because they mess up people's contributions pages. Graham87 07:34, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Tom Caplan

The Tom Caplan Wiki page seems to have been hacked and shows inappropriate material when the page comes up. The page itself is then frozen. I don't know much about Wiki editing etc but the page is set for deletions. It seems it was taken over by someone maliciously. Can you help with this svp. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Needs-abc (talk • contribs) 12:33, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The article Tom Caplan was deleted several days ago as a result of this discussion. So that's all in order. That's not "inappropriate material", nor has it been "hacked". -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 12:49, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Note to others: I've had a discussion with Needs-abc on his user talk page. It seems that, with the original Wikipedia deleted, some Google searches for "Tom Caplan Wiki" end up at a mirror site, which serves adult ads. All I can suggest is for the subject to take the matter up with the mirror and with Google, although I don't know how responsive either is likely to prove. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 15:58, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

How about that kind of draft

Draft:The Silent Heroes--Musamies (talk) 13:31, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

What's special about it? (I just G7'ed as a blanked-by-author). ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 22:33, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

SPA violating BLP

Dewanifacts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to exist for the sole purpose of inserting the name of the person totally acquitted of Murder of Anni Dewani into the article as many times as possible. NE Ent 15:53, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

This is an absurd allegation made by someone who not only does not know what they are talking about, but on their own admission, does not have the time to read up and check before making such a scurrilous accusation against me. NE Ent posted for the first time today on the Talk page of this article stating "Collect -- rip it all out. Unfortunately I have to go real life and don't have time to do it myself.". It appears that NE Ent spent about 25 seconds analysing my contributions and decided that rather than read up before attacking, he/she would simply make this ridiculous accusation and throw my name in the mud.

If anyone takes the time to read the edits that I have made and the discussions that I have had on the aformentioned Talk Page over the last few months, they will see that far from impinging on the rights of the acquitted person in this case (Shrien Dewani), I have been a staunch defender of that person's right to a fair and just representation here on Wikipedia in line with WP:BLP. I have abided by the rules and spirit of Wikipedia and have endeavoured to engage in constructive, collaborative debate to script a better Article. I expect that if you asked for the view of senior respected editors such as Robert McClenon they will attest to the fact that these allegations are unfair and not based in reality and that I have made valid and helpful contributions.

Quite aside from everything mentioned above, There are two rather cogent facts that NE Ent seems to have ignored. (i). The far majority of the mentions of Shrien Dewani's name have been added by other people - not me. (ii) I actually am in agreement with those who suggest that his name is mentioned too much and that lots of mentions can and should be excised from the article as they are no longer relevant. I have proposed discussion to this effect on the Talk page of the article (See this for yourself on the Talk page - section 34. "Suggestions to improve neutrality of the article")

All up - a thoroughly meritless accusation. Dewanifacts (talk) 17:01, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Since you are an admitted "staunch defender of that person's right to a fair and just representation here on Wikipedia", it makes sense to examine your contributions to see if they cross the boundary of POV editing and to determine if you are a single-purpose account with a possible conflict of interest (as hinted at by your account name). When you set out on the quest you have given yourself, you should not be surprised when such questions are raised. BMK (talk) 19:48, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Looking at your contribution list, there's no doubt whatsoever that you are a SPA, since you have not edited any article or talk page other than Murder of Anni Dewani and its talk page, to which you have 214 combined edits, out of your total of 278. [31]. As for "abid[ing] by the rules and spirit of Wikipedia", well, I'm the last person to look down on someone who's been blocked for edit warring, but in fact you have been blocked twice for just that in the 2 months you've been editing, so your claim is not really accurate.

In general, Wikipedia is not improved by editors with your profile, who instead attempt to put a bias in place, so it's perfectly acceptable for NE Ent to bring you up as a subject for scrutiny. BMK (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Given their extremely tight editing focus, I think it would be a good idea for Dewanifacts to say, in this thread, whether they have any conflict of interest with regard to Shrien Dewani. Are they in any way connected to this person or their family (in which case the restrictions in the COI policy should come into effect), or are they being paid for their editing (in which case they also need to comply with the requirements of WP:TOU regarding paid editing). BMK (talk) 20:10, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Background, history, comments

Executive Summary: Dismiss this thread as a bad filing. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I mostly agree with User:Dewanifacts and completely disagree with User:NE Ent, whose hasty entry here is very un-ent-like. (For the benefit of those unfamiliar with Lord of the Rings, ents are large, patient, long-lived humanoids, part tree but sentient, slow to anger, who dislike the “hastiness” of mortals.) NE Ent’s characterization of User:Dewanifacts as a single purpose account is correct, but his assessment of the role of Dewanifacts in the dispute over Murder of Anni Dewani is very far off the mark. Dewanifacts is what I will call a Truth and Justice Warrior, not at all the same as a Social Justice Warrior (SJW). SJWs seek to impose a POV on Wikipedia to advance a particular concept of social justice. Dewanifacts is an SPA who is very committed to neutral point of view and to establishing verified facts from reliable sources in a particular case that has been a terrible miscarriage of justice until recently (until the acquittal of Shrien Dewani).

My experience with this case began on 14 August 2015 when a dispute was brought to the dispute resolution noticeboard and I agreed to act as volunteer moderator (informal mediator). At the time, the article was page-protected for the first time. The stated issue was whether a particular source was biased and should be discounted or removed. However, the alleged bias was basically a criticism of the case against Shrien Dewani. (That is, the criticism was consistent with the fact that the case against him collapsed as being based on the testimony of lying criminals.) One editor was pushing strongly for the removal of material implying that the case against Shrien Dewani was bad, because they were insisting that it was a proved fact that the murder was a murder-for-hire. (It is true that previous court findings had referred to murder for hire, but that finding was based on false pleas.) It was very much a WP:ONEAGAINSTMANY dispute. The editor who was the “one” was not Dewanifacts. Dewanifacts was one of the editors who was trying to clean up the article to reflect the collapse of the murder-for-hire view. (The other editor, who was pushing the anti-Shrien-Dewani agenda, has not edited in the past ten days or so.) I was trying to work with the parties to develop an RFC, the only way that I saw to resolve the sourcing dispute. I had asked the parties to mediation not to edit the article after it came off page protect. However, as soon as the article came off page protection, parties began edit-warring again, and I had to fail the mediation. My subsequent involvement has been one of trying to maintain WP:NPOV, including the fact that a particular living person has been formally acquitted (because the case was based on lies by criminals). Although User:Dewanifacts is an SPA, they are the rare case of an SPA who is working to improve the encyclopedia.

On 17 September User:Collect, not one of the previous editors, made massive cuts to the article, basically eliminating the entire description of the trial of Shrien Dewani except for one clause in the lede. (By removing all description of the trial from the body of the article, this left the lede making a statement not substantiated by the body, contrary to proper article structure.) This was reverted, and the article was then page-protected a second time, on 17 September, and came off page-protection on 17 October. While I agree that the description of the proceedings against Shrien Dewani were far too long, I disagreed with eliminating the entire account. The case is notable not so much because a tourist was murdered in South Africa, but because it was a massive miscarriage of justice by the South African police and government.

I disagree with the complaint by User:NE Ent against Dewanifacts, who is an SPA but who is an SPA for accuracy in a specific case where there has been injustice. The interpretation of the biographies of living persons policy by User:Collect (who has a long history of inconsistent application of BLP, sometimes very loose, sometimes absurdly rigid) that the acquittal of an individual should be treated as if the trial never happened is extreme and eccentric.

I think that every editor agrees that the number of mentions of Shrien Dewani in the long text of the article was excessive, and that it needed drastic trimming. The problem is that the complete excision of all mention of the trial and acquittal, which is much of why the case is notable, is inappropriate. A much shorter description of the trial, concluding that the case was dismissed as based on lies, is not only appropriate but necessary. The current shortened version is not so much a whitewash of Shrien Dewani, who needs no whitewashing because he is innocent, as a whitewash of a miscarriage of justice.

Since this thread appears to be a request for administrative action against Dewanifacts, by an editor User:NE Ent who is acting hastily and in accordance with an eccentric interpretation of BLP, I suggest that this thread be closed. There is a Request for Comments pending at Murder of Anni Dewani, a better way to resolve a content dispute (whether or not the RFC is neutrally worded).

Robert McClenon (talk) 01:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Because Dewanifacts is, as you admit, clearly a SPA, I think it's imperative that we get a statement from them dealing with the questions I asked above: do they have a conflict of interest, and are they a paid editor? BMK (talk) 02:48, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Robert McClenon for taking the time to explain all that. Hi BMK, there is already a section on the Talk page of the article (Section 24: "COI Tag") where I have declared my position and this has all been discussed, however you are right in saying that should have made it clear in my response to this allegation. I can catagorically state that I have no link whatsoever to the Dewani or Hindocha families, nor anyone who knows or represents the Dewanis or Hindocha families, nor am I paid by anyone for my interest or online representations in this case. I represent an independant website dedicated to finding and uncovering the truth about what happened to Anni Dewani. We have no agenda other than seeking the truth and achieving true justice for Anni Dewani. This agenda is clearly stated on our website - https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/our-agenda/. Thanks Dewanifacts (talk) 07:53, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for declaring your conflict of interest. Since you "represent an independant website dedicated to finding and uncovering the truth about what happened to Anni Dewani", I am going to insist that you cease editing the article directly, and, per the requirements of WP:COI, make suggestions on the talk page which will be put in effect by non-conflicted editors if they agree with them. No person can serve two masters, and you cannot serve the WP:NPOV requirements of Wikipedia while at the same time "seeking the truth and achieving true justice for Anni Dewani". Wikipedia does not deal with "truth", per se, we deal only with what can be verified through the use of reliable sources. Given your statement, I am telling you here that I, a totally uninvolved editor, will delete any future edit you make directly to the article, but will (of course) not stand in the way of other editore putting your suggested edits into effect. BMK (talk) 08:18, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

BMK I have read through WP:COI and I cannot see anything that gives you the power to "insist" on me not editing the article. In fact it seems like you are acting contradictory to the Wikipedia "assume good faith" doctrine. Who or what gives you the authority to ban me from editing the article? Please can you clarify this so that this is 100% transparent and I am satisfied that you have the power to make such a directive. Thanks. Dewanifacts (talk) 08:43, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think your rash judgement is helpful, given you haven't even read the article in the first place, as you state here. Being ignorant about a situation and uninvolved are not the same thing. One of those two clearly does not help in building an encyclopedia. I would suggest exercising caution and carefully examining the facts before declaring an intention to edit-war. Samsara 08:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The above comment is (I assume) addressed toward BMK and I concur with the sentiment expressed by Samsara. Were I to be editing in a disruptive manner, I would understand a hard line approach such as the one displayed by BMK, however I think that good faith should be assumed unless and until there is cause for concern. The Talk page of the article is testament to the fact that I am committed to the collaborative process and have been a strong advocate for discussing changes on the Talk page and only making edits once consensus has been reached, or no opposition voiced. In practice, I don't have that much of an issue with not making edits, however I don't like bullies and people on power trips and I would like BMKto either show who gave him the power to make such a directive, or retract it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dewanifacts (talk • contribs) 09:57, 26 October 2015

Dewanifacts (talk · contribs) is an SPI with a user name that conveys their agenda, and they have a website dedicated to fighting the good fight, and now they are at Wikipedia to make sure the world is told the truth. Those are very large facts which BMK correctly identifies as red flags needing attention—if you have studied the topic, and Dewanifacts' edits, and the dewanifacts website, you might help by explaining how Dewanifacts is assisting. Johnuniq (talk) 09:42, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Johnuniq, can you clarify your last sentence please. I'm not quite sure who you are suggesting should be doing the explaining..... Dewanifacts (talk) 09:49, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is you, Dewanifacts. -Roxy the dog™ (Resonate) 10:04, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I am happy to explain. As Johnuniq points out, I am a SPA and I have never pretended to be anything else. I chose a name that made this bleedingly obvious. I am exceptionally well studied in the facts and nuances of this complicated saga and am in a good position to help guide the article. If you look at my edits you will see that they are neutral, avoid conjecture and only present neutral, reliably sourced facts that can be substantiated in their entirety. Dewanifacts (talk) 10:59, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Stop pinging me. I see you know how to spread jargon to obscure the fact that you are using Wikipedia as part of your campaign. Perhaps you are a great editor, but someone with such a blatant agenda needs to take a more cautious approach—stop trying to brush off very reasonable concerns with jargon; instead, restrict your activities to infrequent suggestions on the article talk page to highlight any perceived problems. Johnuniq (talk) 11:15, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

How is a self-admitted SPA who only focuses on the Anni Dewani issue even allowed to operate under the handle "Dewanifacts"? Doc talk 11:18, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

More to the point; why would I not be "allowed" to? What rule have I broken? Dewanifacts (talk) 12:36, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Interesting question - and note that I here object to being accused of somehow being inconsistent on WP:BLP - my position is consistent as best I am able, and I have never argued for using any "loose" requirements on BLPs. Period. I find that a person who has a specific POV on the case at hand, as the two editors clearly do represent, should not be the ones editing the material. Once the request to re-open the inquest was denied, I suggest the playing field had changed substantially. The material which I just removed was not the "major edit" I am accused of - and I invite those who make or iterate that accusation to recant. [32]. With warm regards, and trusting that those who accuse me of doing what I damn well do not do will note that fact. BTW, I find the net effect of the material with its more than three dozen iterations of Dewani's full name does more to confuse readers about his "guilt" than my edits which used the word "husband" and left material containing the name fully visible in the footnotes. Collect (talk) 12:13, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

You made the major edit on 17th September, after which it was reversed alongside pleas to discuss all changes on the Talk page. The article was locked for a month and Darouet then made a similar major edit on 22nd October, with you finishing his handiwork a few hours later by excising every single mention of Shrien Dewani's name from the article, under the false guise that its inclusion was a BLP violation. As mentioned elsewhere, the number of name mentions is irrelevant. What matters is the context. Amanda Knox's name is mentioned six dozen times in the article on Meredith Kercher's murder, so if your numbers game has any relevance then Dewani is actually mentioned comparatively much fewer times and your outrage should be directed toward other Wikipedia crime articles such as the one I've just mentioned.Dewanifacts (talk) 12:52, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The progression of the discussion on this noticeboard is somewhat alarming. It began with a wholly unfounded allegation against me, which has been shown to be misguided and unfair. That should be the end of the matter. I am merely a person who took an interest in this case largely because it was misreported and misrepresented in the media, and set up a wordpress site in conjunction with a few others, to put the facts forward in a neutral non biased fashion. I am aware of what Wikipedia is and is not here to achieve and I do my damndest to stay within the guidelines and to participate in the true spirit of Wikipedia. I will declare again that I have no issue with discussing edits on the Talk page first and I don't really care whether it is me or someone else who enacts the agreed edits, however I won't be bullied by wikipedia editors on power trips who think they can talk down to me and give directives and declare their intent to edit war with me. Dewanifacts (talk) 12:44, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

On the other hand, excessive length in any article where the "possible guilt" of a living person is clearly discussed often leaves readers with "there was smoke so there must be a fire" as the implication. In cases if miscarriages, Wikipedia generally deals with the issues in a far more concise manner (vide Richard Jewell where the total amount in any presenting any negative inference about the person is zero, and the praise section is large, and the bombing article is only 13K total, with less than half being about Jewell - leaving no room for any "smoke = fire" misapprehensions by readers) rather than having 30K+ characters about material many would find to support such inferences, and possibly find such to be actually implied by the article. Indeed, the entire article on the murder had reached 71K with about half of the entire article being about Shrien Dewani and his trial - and almost none of that half was about the actual exoneration. So much for me being wrong about WP:BLP - if a person sees one paragraph abut the exoneration, and 6,000 words about the person maybe being guilty, that is UNDUE by any measure. When we have one short paragraph about the exoneration and three dozen mentions of his name - I find that against WP:BLP in esse.

(The lead has all of "Dewani was exonerated, with the Western Cape High Court ruling that there was no credible evidence to support the allegations."

while the lead also has "In his plea bargain agreement, Zola Tongo said that Anni's husband, British national Shrien Dewani of Bristol, had offered R15,000 to have his wife killed.[9][10] Following an application by South African authorities, Senior District Judge Howard Riddle ruled in August 2011 that Shrien Dewani could be extradited to face charges in relation to the murder. The extradition order was approved by Home Secretary Theresa May on 28 September 2011. A High Court ruling of 30 March 2012 put the extradition on hold, based on expert witness opinion of Shrien Dewani's mental health and prospects for recovery.[11] Shrien Dewani continued to state his innocence, and his family described the allegations of Tongo as "totally ludicrous".[12] Following a long legal battle, in January 2014, the English High Court of Justice rejected Shrien Dewani's plea against extradition to South Africa,[13] and he was extradited to South Africa on 7 April 2014 and taken to court on 8 April 2014.[14] The cost of the extradition to British taxpayers was £250,000.[15] Shrien Dewani's trial began on 6 October 2014. On 24 November 2014, after the closure of the prosecution case, counsel for Shrien Dewani argued for the trial to be halted and charges dismissed pursuant to Section 174 of the Criminal Procedure Act, citing a lack of any credible evidence linking Mr Dewani to the crime."

which suggests to me inescapable conclusion that the person named did, indeed, commit the crime. Do you see the difference in space given to a short sentence about exoneration compared to the entire rest of the lead? Collect (talk) 13:06, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:help desk#IP address change

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Please reply to my comment at the help desk about my IP address. thanks. --74.130.133.1 (talk) 00:32, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

someone seriously do it-. --74.130.133.1 (talk) 03:07, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.